Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:29:14 pm

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:29:14 pm

Okay, I've noticed a LOT of D&D/Pathfinder discussion of late, and it doesn't seem to fit into the Tabletop Games thread.

This thread is for D&D/Pathfinder players, DMs, and interested parties to share experiences, engage in some world building, and generally discuss the games.

From the outset I want a few things clear, DO NOT engage in 'version X is better than version Y' discussion/argument, I will lock down the thread and report the parties responsible. (Even if it's me.)

Sometimes games get graphic, try to be considerate of other forumgoers and keep more brutal/nasty/lascivious details spoilered, general descriptions of sex are probably fine, but not excessive detail (most people generally understand sex, right?), as for nasty and brutal, I'd just prefer that the gory details be kept spoilered, it's okay to explain that something was killed in a horribly violent fashion, but the details of the viscera are spoiler material, and it is fine to explain that the badguy's perversion include torturing children and raping them, but not okay to throw the details out in public.  Again, I will lock down and call the Toad.

Addendum 1: NO gods be damned alignment discussions, this subject has become less charged recently, but I will still ask you to use the alignment thread.  If you do not comply, I will have to call the Toad.  Bohandas has kindly put up a thread specifically to discuss alignments, and I am putting the link up right here for people

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151965.msg6374167#msg6374167 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151965.msg6374167#msg6374167)

Addendum 2: KEEP IT CIVIL, no attacks, no attitude (even me.)  If I issue a warning, it may contain vulgarity, this is facet of my baseline communication tendencies and is not likely to change ever.

Addendum 3: Try to keep discussion limited to actual game elements (rules, character creation, adventure/campaign ideas), I realize that discussions tend to range over a broad range of topics, but some are not acceptable for this thread.  If I ask you to drop a subject, please do so, I am just trying to avoid lengthy off-topic arguments.

Addendum 4: If you have concerns over how I handle curation of this thread then feel free to PM me, I appreciate feedback that can help me do a better job and keep me from being an asshole.

Addendum 5: Discussion of the literary merits and authorial intent of a PnP game, module, or related work are conditionally allowed, if discussion veers too far away from the actual game, module, setting, or authorial intent, I may ask you to stop.  In the spirit of this it is acceptable to discuss specific issues relating to the author in question, but if it turns into a hate train, I will derail with extreme prejudice.

(I may edit this post for further clarification, or add some quotes from interesting stories, I may also expand for other PnP games, if anyone is playing them and wants to share.)

101 wilderness encounters from the Bay12 hivemind:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1.You find a concealed stone paved road leading off into the wilderness
2.You find the remains of another group's campsite
3.You see lights in the distance and hear the sound of music and laughter
4.You see a swallow tied to a coconut perched in a nearby tree
5.A body lays on the ground near a shallow hole with a shovel nearby
6.A travelling merchant sits by the side of the road next to a lame donkey
7.You see a barn on fire in the distance
8.Two men stand next to a wagon with a wheel that’s fallen off
9.Three boys are daring each other to climb a nearby structure
10.Two men are arguing about what defines good or evil
11.There is a toll booth ahead
12.An ornate sword is sticking out of the chest of a stone shaped like a monster
13.You find the hidden site of a poison maker’s hut
14.A trail of bones arranged like arrows points into the wilderness
15.You see a tree marked with druidic symbols
16.A glowing weapon sits in the centre of a large pond
17.A meteor crashes to the ground nearby
18.A sinkhole has opened and revealed the entrance to an ancient ruin
19.A secluded cabin is filled with undead cats
20.You hear crying from the bottom of a well
21.A mound with a stone marker that reads “What’s dead is best left buried”
22.A half-orc hangs in an iron cage at a crossroads, nearly dead
23.The road ahead passes through a well known ambush location
24.A young girl claims a witch has her brother and plans to eat him
25.A stranger begs you to willingly accept a cursed item
26. There's a big pit trap in the middle of the road, and inside it is a crashed wagon and a desperate tax collector.
27. There's a hole in a tree nearby and something very bright is shining out from inside it.
28. There's a literal hole a few metres up in the sky and water is pouring out of it at high speeds.
29. You meet a bear in the woods. She asks you if you've got any food to spare and if you know the way to the nearest town.
30. You encounter an orc fighting a tree with his bare hands, making mild progress. Several of his comrades are cheering him on.
31. An ancient tower leans precipitously over a meander. It ponderously collapses over the next hour, falling into the river piece by piece as it creates a new reef.
32. An elephant wanders the environs, looking out of place and confused.
33. The bottom half of a knight, neatly severed, lies in plain sight, still fresh and warm.
34. A zombie is sinking in quicksand, unable to process its predicament.
35. You kick a small pebble as you move about on your way. The ground starts to emit a progressively rising rumble.
36. You encounter a farmer tending his honey farm of giant wasps.
37. A bottle full of a shining silver liquid stands on a flat rock placed in the middle of the road.
38. you encounter two swordsmen - one dressed in red, the other in blue - locked in a duel.
39. You encounter the most cruel, foul, and bad-tempered rabbit you ever set eyes on.
40. Coming to a crossroads, you see the silvery figure of a ghostly woman, looking lost and upset.
41. The top half of a knight, neatly severed, lies in plain sight, still fresh and warm.
42.  A young man in a green cap runs past, being chased by a flock of angry chickens.
43. You find the site of a battle - the mud is churned and littered with broken arrows, weapons, and dried blood - but not a single body is in sight.
44. The dark figure of some vast creature crawls towards you from the path ahead before vanishing.
45. kobolds prance around a fire, a man trapped in a nearby wooden cage.
46. You find a grave. Seemingly from the ground, a voice loudly decries the vile traitor that betrayed him.
47. A dense mist descends and when it rises a character/valuable item has vanished.
48. You find a tree with disturbing faces carved into it.
49. You find a wandering fey, fresh into their first time on the material plane.
50. You find a trail of treats, strung from trees leading off into the deep forest
51. A boulder slowly rolls across the path, smashing through trees without slowing.  Its wake is perfectly straight, and long.
52. A goblin is climbing trees and debranching them.  It begs for assistance before nightfall.
53. A swarm of ants fills the path ahead, standing perfectly still.
54. A talking frog claims to be cursed, and begs to be taken to a prince for a kiss.
55. A hairy arm thrusts out of the ground, holding a shining battleaxe.
56. An old man sits beside the road, demanding a toll of "one riddle each".
57. At nightfall in a valley, ghostly coral and fish appear.  A glowing ship slowly floats above the path ahead.
58. The sound of clashing weapons is heard off in the trees.  But if approached, it remains equally distant.
59. An unarmed man lies in the road, dying of a sword wound.  He cannot speak, but refuses assistance as best he can.
60. A pillar of light from the full moon appears, touching down nearby.  Chanting can be heard through the trees.
61: You find a box of 3 magical equipment items; One of them is a great one that gives a major boost in damage. One of them is a "Girdle of Masculinity/Feminity". One of them is cursed and turns the wearer Chaotic Evil until it is removed.
62: You run into an old man in a cottage. He has dryads to help him tend his garden and he has a bit of a bug problem he wants you to help him with.
63. You come across a lake/pond/river. On the other side is a bear that appears to be made of some sort of roots. As it's swimming through the water towards you, you notice that the root bear floats.
64. You come across a Wizard on the road, arguing with their Familiar. Alternatively, a Druid and their Animal Companion. Or a Necromancer and an Intelligent Undead.
65. As you walk along the forest road, you begin to notice that colours, sounds, smells, and tastes are becoming much more vivid.
66. You hear what sounds like talking in the distance. As you approach, you see a number of woodland animals straining to comprehend their newfound intelligence.
67. The trees of this area seem peculiar to you. As you approach one to investigate, you realize that you have really been walking past the legs of giant creatures for the last half-mile.
68. You come across a man claiming to be a priest of a deity you have never heard of, asking for your assistance. Unknown to you, his powers are arcane in nature.
69. Thinly veiled innuendo.
70. The trees of this area seem peculiar to you. They appear to have thick vines hanging down each of their branches. As you approach, you realize that they are in fact the incredibly long arms of Moss Trolls. Seems you have stumbled upon a clan's territory. Luckily, they are currently asleep.
71. The weather becomes unpleasantly unseasonable.
72. A tree trips you over with a root, by accident.
73. A tree trips you over with a root, on purpose. It obviously grew that root in just that way for the sole purpose of tripping you over.
74. You spy an old man lying by the side of the road. He tells you that he was robbed by bandits, who stole his wheelchair. If you refuse to get it for him, he gets up, hits you with a stick and wanders off, muttering about the youth of today not respecting their elders, before falling over again because he's supposed to be in a wheelchair.
75. You have an uncomfortable feeling of being watched. You look around, but see nothing. Wait, did that pebble just wink at you?
76. You spot in the distance a man on horseback, clad completely in black with a long cloak. Although it is a breezy day, his cloak does not seem to move in the wind.
77. Suddenly, and very scarily, absolutely nothing interesting happens, throwing you completely off guard.
78. A shifty looking man sidles towards you and offers to sell you some cheap, "quality" magical artifacts from a totally legit source.
79. You spot a stairway carved into the side of a hill/mountainside/cliff leading up to a natural looking cave. As you watch, you see a metallic spring fall down the stairs.
80. A band of well dressed bandits accost you.
81. There is a large oak tree in the middle of the road ahead. In front of it is a picnic table with room enough to sit the party and no more, along with an assortment of food.
82. A garishly robed Wood Elf falls to his death from the sky.
83. There's a giant constrictor snake in the middle of the road, and someone (or something) is inside it, screaming for help.
84. While crossing a bridge, a troll leaps up and demands you pay a toll.
85. As above, but while the troll distracts you, another one sneaks up behind you and ties your shoe laces together.
86. You come across an elf engaged in a staring contest with a patch of nettles.
87. A pack of wolves is eating a recently killed deer. They won't bother you if you don't bother them.
88. Some wizard's cat familiar is in heat and trying to feed an aphrodesiac to a much larger wild cat like a lynx or a bobcat or an ocelot or something
89. Two elves seem to be playing a boardgame in a clearing, except that on closer inspection - and despite the fact that thir game seems to be progressing - they never seem to actually move any of the pieces.
90. An enormous swarm of panicked rats or snakes or other small animals scurries past going in the other direction
91. A raven pecks at a corpse by the side of the path
92. Shrines to two rival deities are located a short distance from one another along the path (really two seperate encounters, I guess). Both have been defaced.
93. A boat is half buried in the dirt far from any body of water
94. A boat is half buried in the side of a building, no one who lives around it seems to notice.
95. The party spots a ship sailing across the sky, using clouds as "waves".
96. Someone walks up to them and makes them take the GOAT from FO3
97. They meet a friendly troll in full plate, who is questing to become a knight of justice. The troll asks them if they've seen any fearsome beasts it could slay.
98. You encounter a hunting party carrying the body of a tremendous dire boar
99. You discover a wizard's tower. In the basement are a dozen locked cages containing strange creatures, and a open single cage. The wizard is nowhere to be seen.
100. With a very loud bang, a large chest containing a living halfling appears. The halfing is glad to be freed from inside, and gives the party a choice between two pouches.
101. The party stumbles across another party. Made up of dopplegangers of themselves. Claiming that they're the real ones.
101b. Flip a coin. On a tails, the dopplegangers are telling the truth.

with thanks to : Twinwolf, FallacyofUrist, GiglameshDespair, Greatorder, Sirius, Kilakan, Bohandas, Dutrius, Gentlefish, Scriver, BlackFlyme, Kadzar, Rolan7, sjm9876, Harry Baldman, and Jimmy who started the whole thing.

The link below is provided courtesy of My Name is Immaterial, it goes to a googledocs spreadsheet that contains the names of Bay 12 members who are looking for D&D and Pathfinder games:
Bay 12 players (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cj_nyQVHDCtxb1_3Csz4mAZLAJDmx1AEbjjABgVEIdc/edit#gid=0)

If you are hurting for players, let me know, and I'll put up some free advertising (in the form of changing the title, not going crazy here).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 25, 2015, 11:33:57 pm

What do you think the limit on the brutal/nasty/lascivious details are? Give us an example of something just skirting the edge of acceptable, plehz. I mean, if someone frequents /d/, aint nothin' gonna phase 'em, but otherwise it varies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 25, 2015, 11:35:11 pm

PTW. I've got some semi-decent stories that I'll type up later. Nothing approaching BlackFlyme's DM, but still.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 25, 2015, 11:37:06 pm

To be fair, there isn't much that approaches the level of BlackFlyme's DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:37:58 pm

That's a bit hard to pin down, I'll admit, general descriptions of sex are probably fine, but not excessive detail (most people generally understand sex, right?), as for nasty and brutal, I'd just prefer that the gory details be kept spoilered, it's okay to explain that something was killed in a horribly violent fashion, but the details of the viscera are spoiler material, and it is fine to explain that the badguy's perversion include torturing children and raping them, but not okay to throw the details out in public.

Edit: I'll add this to the OP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on May 25, 2015, 11:41:46 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on May 25, 2015, 11:37:06 pm

To be fair, there isn't much that approaches the level of BlackFlyme's DM.

Well, WaffleHouseMillionaire's DM was maybe a tier below this one. That Guy [Kills All Psions]'s playergroup could be considered the player equivalent of BlackFlyme's DM, I guess, too.

...

PTW.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 25, 2015, 11:44:13 pm

I'd say this depends on how the DM wants to roll with it.

There ARE pervert players (LOTS of pervert players), and while the DM may prefer to NOT give juicy details about juices (ahem)-- If the player(s) try to be peeping toms, then the DM should probably let them-- but should have consequences fitting and natural to the circumstances involved to keep the scenario from devolving into pure pornographic gratification.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:45:01 pm

So, on the WTF thread, we've pretty much confirmed that Blackflyme's DM is a Bad DM, what do you guys think makes a good DM?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on May 25, 2015, 11:47:20 pm

The halfling called me a mean name so I threw him down the cellar stairs.
Into the dwarf, who was single-beardedly fighting a pack of ghouls at the time. And then I was pressured into marrying the goblin princess.
Fuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flame99 on May 25, 2015, 11:52:11 pm

PtW

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 25, 2015, 11:52:43 pm

Does not railroad plot, and permits players to spin their wheels in futility chasing geese around, if that is their wish-- but at least makes said goose chasing entertaining, and thus still enjoyable for the group. Part of a good setting for the plot is an evocative, and alluring environment that begs to be explored, after all.  Not all exploring is going to advance the plot, but exploring is part of what makes a good game session fun and entertaining. A good DM is not afraid of "irrelevant bullshit", as long as it is setting appropriate, and not just players being shits. (The story equivalent of drawing dicks on everything, just because they can.  A good DM would let somebody do that, then have the offender arrested by the city guard for vadalism and lewd public displays, and conjure up a new mini-plot device about getting ShitPlayer out of jail.)

Does not produce consequences that are bullshit.  Produces consequences that are sensible, rational, and fitting to the story and setting.

Does not try to murder offensive player characters; instead, "encourages" better behavior through appropriate application of consequences.

NOT a rule book beating puritanical tyrant.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:55:50 pm

That almost describes my thoughts and style to a 't'.  I've had several DMs that were good about making the world an interesting place and I often find more enjoyment letting a plot develop organically due to action or inaction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:08:24 am

I am currently trying to expand my sort of idea of what is and isn't allowed as a DM

Ultimately though a DM can be both narrow or vast it just amounts to styles. I've had both fun railroaded games and incredibly boring open games, and vise versa.

Yet the important thing is that even when you put a player down a path, that they need to feel like they own that path. That their talents, abilities, intelligence, and character all contribute to their success... rather then feeling like they are spinning their wheels until the DM decides they won.

A good DM BETTER be afraid of "Irrelevant bullshit" or else they are a bad DM. Horror be the game where the plot just flat out stops and the player complain that they are bored because "Who knew doing nothing would be boring?". It is the DM's job to make sure the irrelevant BS is significant and interesting.

I certainly had a game halt into long periods of dull because a player decided to derail the entire plot to their own benefit. I had to basically force the players into doing something productive because they were getting bored of "The adventures of Prince Mary Sue"

--

Things always feel like a war between the players and DMs anyhow... rather then a co-operative experience.

I am always constantly afraid that the players don't want any consequences.

But that is because I was told directly by a player that they want no consequences... That they don't want anything negative to happen to their character, the people they know, or for there to be a negative side effect for ignoring the main plot.

It is that sort of internalized fear that comes into play every time I run a game...

When I first starting trying to DM I was really lousy at it, but I liked how I mostly was more about the freeform gameplay. Players could lose their equipment, insane crazy crud could just happen because, and stuff... but the players always came out on top anyway. I kind of liked those games more then anything else I ran.

Heck I once ran a minisession where these guys went to a haunted house and the house had magical flying termites that ate magical objects. I didn't see anything wrong with it at the time, I was rather inexperienced and didn't realize the implications of what I did. The player though didn't mind, heck he found the session wonderful.

In fact that is the weird thing... All my oldest sessions where I just did what I wanted, sending the craziest crud against the players... Were considered refreshing and fun... I kind of wish I could recapture that.

---

Everything is just a cloak and dagger as a DM.

A hard thing to do when people aren't your friends is to show them that random elements in your game aren't necessarily "mistakes".

When I ran a game for example I introduced a major villain rather easy. The players were able to "sneak" up to him and get him to surrender and call away his guard rather easily.

Truth be known it is because he knew he wasn't in any danger and was wearing an entire set of animated objects to deal with our Heroes in case anything went wrong.

But to the players they thought I was just letting them win because "Otherwise they couldn't have won".

I wasn't able to project an atmosphere of competence to my players and lost their confidence in my ability to run the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 12:14:15 am

Think about what the players are asking for when they say they dont want any adverse consequences for actions--  They are wanting a blank cheque to go scrawl dicks on everything, due to blatant wish fulfillment. 

That is NOT how a game is supposed to be run.  A game is SUPPOSED to be a WORLD that players interact with. Not a "Stroke my ego until I orgasm!" simulator. (That's what bad fan-fiction is for.)

Part of what makes a world compelling and seem real (and thus engaging) is the existence of natural consequences. Players that dont want to accept this, or worse, outright reject this, are not interested in playing a game. They are interested in something else entirely. Call them on it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:14:42 am

I find that the best way to get a stalled campaign moving again is to have the random shit that players do have unforeseen consequences, like having the owner of that high-class bar they trashed last night have them shanghaied aboard a merchantman bound to someplace foreign and hostile, it tends to be effective (and the shit that happens when you do something like this is hilarious.)

A good game is a continuous dialog between the players and the DM, the players take their actions and the DM decides what happens, the players take action based on that decision, and so on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 12:19:10 am

Which is a consequence that is sensible, rational, and tied to the actions in the setting-- which is EXACTLY how it should be handled.

Things like "You are suddenly struck by a bolt of lightning because XYZ, God of chastity, has suddenly decided to take offense to your lewd advances to the chamber maid." are what I am saying to avoid.  Have the chamber maid kick the offender in the balls, then give him a super wedgie and kick him down the stairs into the common room, then report his scandelous conduct to the city guards.  Much more entertaining.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:19:47 am

Sometimes as a DM I would love to have an open license just to do something to the players just to put them into a situation they would never fall into.

Like for their drinks to be poisoned with a knock out juice... and they wake up in chains being sold into slavery.

In game this would never work because the rolls required would ensure that SOMEONE would survive it... or find it... or cast detect poison...

It creates this situation where I'd just like to input some sort of dark drama, like any story has, but where it would require all the players to mess up to attempt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:21:04 am

Or, alternatively, let the player commit the act of rapine, make him/her and any associates outlaws, and force them to deal with the local justices or run like the villains they are.

Just remember that as the DM you are the FINAL ARBITER of everything that happens in your world (don't abuse it, that's Very Bad DMing), if you need them KOed for a legitimate plot reason you can do that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 12:24:15 am

Neon-- Alcohol is itself a poison.  Point this out to somebody trying to cast "Detect poison", and use the intoxicating effects of the beverage itself to dull their senses so that they roll heavily hobbled saving throws.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:25:02 am

Quote from: wierd on May 26, 2015, 12:24:15 am

Neon-- Alcohol is itself a poison.  Point this out to somebody trying to cast "Detect poison", and use the intoxicating effects of the beverage itself to dull their senses so that they roll heavily hobbled saving throws.

Player 1: Why didn't you let me roll my fortitude?

The best excuse I can make was that it was many doses of a poison... and they drank a lot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:26:00 am

See above^^.  FINAL ARBITER.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:26:41 am

Besides the issue isn't so much that I couldn't REALLY force the issue to make it happen.

It is that the players would throw a dang riot!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:27:38 am

If they agree to let you DM, they have already agreed to play by your rules, if they won't do so, get a better group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:30:15 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:27:38 am

If they agree to let you DM, they have already agreed to play by your rules, if they won't do so, get a better group.

You say this as if it was a sign as a bad group... but think of it this way

You JUST beat that dungeon, you go to the local bar in victory! Raising a cup of the finest ale the entire party drinks in tribute to that great spell you cast that was the villain's undoing.

BUT... it was a trap

The drinks they were poisoned and you all fell into a coma. When you awoken you found yourselves stripped and put into magic dampening irons without any locks, welded shut. Apparently a much more sinister force saw your victory and wishes to use you.

---

Most players would be pissed off that they were just forced into this situation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 12:30:42 am

Ask the player to explain how their fotitude stat, intended to convey how well somebody holds their constitution with bleeding wounds, is going to influence their ability to not be heavily intoxicated after drinking enough alcohol to literally pickle somebody.

While they might not be physically unconscious yet, the effects of the alcohol are going to temporarily reduce their perception and intelligence stats into the crapper. That's what you need to avoid being bamboozled and hoodwinked, and or picked up by "Lola" in the black leather ensemble and violently cornholed in the livery stable.

In other words, being awake does not mean being able to react.  Point this out to them, and stick with it.


Neon--  That's bad story telling.  The first round is never poisoned.  It's the 4th or 5th round, as the evening wears on, and people start dozing into their drinks and bellowing out insane bullshit because of how drunk they are.  THAT'S when the new agent of the new bad guy slips them the roofie.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 12:31:54 am

Basically. As long as you don't a) suck (see Flyme's DM) or b) abuse your power (once more, see Flyme's DM) things should go fine. Not all players will enjoy being drugged and sold into slavery, where they must henceforth find their way out of, but not all players enjoy playing (again, Flyme's DM.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:32:05 am

As a DM you have hard decisions to make, some of your actions are going to make players unhappy, your job is to make the payoff worth what they went through.

And don't do it over and over again, once the group has been hit like this once they go mega-paranoia mode (which actually makes it easier to direct them), and they will probably flip their shit if you railroad them like this more than once.  If they're threatening to walk after it happens once, they are a bad group (or there are bad players among them.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 12:35:20 am

Also, make the distinction of whether it's making them unhappy or they don't enjoy it.

I'm not really going to be happy desperately fighting my way out of a spider-filled cave, trying to avoid my character's seemingly likely death, but that doesn't mean I don't want it to happen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:36:28 am

I've had players enjoy getting killed to save a city of millions, good players roll with the DM as well as the dice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:38:22 am

I love players who roll with anything.

They accept ALL the BS luck, the plot twists you throw at them, and even the insane challenges you put towards them.

I've had so few players like that but they are a gem.

Players who don't like any consequences run Mary Sues

Players who roll with whatever you throw at them run Heroes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:39:37 am

I've had a lot of good players, and redeemed a few bad ones.  I've also had players walk away, tho' not to many, just a handful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 12:40:05 am

And as I said in the WTF thread, consequence is key. If the players decide not to investigate the eery abandoned castle by the edge of town and head elsewhere, it might end up being the lair of a necromancer who destroys the town, or a small portal to the Abyss is kept in its depths.

Actually, this is probably one of the most important things. MAKE INTERESTING NPCS. You want NPCs the players can connect to, so you can give consequences to their actions. If they've gotten really attached to this one NPC, maybe have a mistake of theirs kill them, or have them kidnapped, and so on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:41:58 am

Gods yes, NPCs are the key to good DMing, you have to have people that the PCs care about (whether they love them or hate them), so you can get them invested in the world.  The most amazing city ever envisioned will fail if all the inhabitants are cardboard cut-outs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergarr on May 26, 2015, 12:42:41 am

I would never believe that you, Neonivek, is a filthy railroading type of DM, obsesses about controlling your players in spite of their wishes, yet your responses in this thread seem to leave no doubt about it :-\

Quote from: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:38:22 am

I love players who roll with anything.

So in essence, you don't actually want players to have any agency at all.

Tell me, in this case, why do you even need players? Could you not tell the story you want to tell by yourself? Maybe what you actually want is to be a writer?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:44:23 am

Watch the tone Sergarr, I'm not putting up with arguments here.  If you want to discuss this, be civil.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:47:24 am

Quote from: Sergarr on May 26, 2015, 12:42:41 am

I would never believe that you, Neonivek, is a filthy railroading type of DM, obsesses about controlling your players in spite of their wishes, yet your responses in this thread seem to leave no doubt about it :-\

Quote from: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:38:22 am

I love players who roll with anything.

So in essence, you don't actually want players to have any agency at all.

Tell me, in this case, why do you even need players? Could you not tell the story you want to tell by yourself? Maybe what you actually want is to be a writer?

A player who rolls with anything isn't a player who "lacks agency" if anything it is the exact opposite.

A player who "rolls with anything" is one who when they have a set back, a problem, or an obstacle will seek to overcome it... instead of complain that they had any misfortune whatsoever.

The exact opposite is a player who threatens to quit because a chest didn't have any loot he could use.

My favorite player of all time was one who rolled with anything and he had nothing but agency... and I threw a LOT at him... but he always found a way out of it with panache (it was written into his bio that he was super cursed so I always had to find a way every session to kill him).

A player who just does whatever you say and doesn't complain is more of a wallflower.

---

As for me being a roalroady DM

It is more that my job as a DM is to have the best possible, the most fun game, for both myself and the players.

If a player decides that he wants to go to the beach... The beach isn't automatically an interesting place, it isn't "fun" just because the player decided it. It is fun because I go in there and make SURE that their trip to the beach is one they can be excited about.

If they are tired of the beach but have no excuse to leave... It is up to me to provide them with an excuse

I have to decide things from the background that a player doesn't see, doesn't get to look at to allow them to have fun.

I have to make these decisions based around what I think the players will enjoy and what they will decide to do... and sometimes this means I have to make a tough choice with circumventing a player decision because one player's derail is another character's "ENOUGH! already!"

But I also cannot ignore my own wishes and desires as well. So I will pepper games with things I personally enjoy.

Yeah everything I say sounds really bad... but every DM thinks about these things.

And yeah sometimes I wish I could just do something without always needing to put it in the wheels within wheels. Just ask my players "Hey, mind if we have a detour here? I'd like to spin this in a new direction for a bit" but that kind of dialog is considered taboo in games. Sometimes I wish I didn't even need to ask that I could just go "You teleport to candyland"

But having these urges isn't the same as acting upon them. I doubt there is a DM ALIVE who wouldn't have loved a "get out of bad DMing freecard" that let them do one huge detour... I'd call a DM a liar right to his face if he told me he never wanted to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 12:59:25 am

No, that's mostly the right attitude, some players don't care about the frills and want to jump into the action, some players want to butter up to the local dignitaries and play politics, some players just want to explore every nook and cranny to discover *anything* even remotely interesting, and as DM your job is to keep them functioning in game by providing what they need and directing them to your goals (if you even have any, my goals are always decided by player actions.)

And you have called me a liar, and I still think you lack the requisite experience to make that assertion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:01:54 am

Really NullForceOmega?

You never thought to yourself "Boy, would I love it if the players were in the desert right now"? You never thought "Dang, I know it makes no sense but I just want to put a dragon in here"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:02:31 am

No, never, that isn't how I run my games, period.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 01:02:56 am

Personally, I would invent "backpath" roads into the main scenario that employ their derail attempts.

Slipped into the back alley, chasing the prostitute, because you thought chasing tail would be more fun than saving the day? As the prostitute rounds the corner out of sight, you lose track of her, and instead notice a group of suspicious people picking the lock of the back door of the inn your friends are staying at.

Etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:04:29 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:02:31 am

No, never, that isn't how I run my games, period.

That is astounding to me. I can't think of how one would avoid simply wanting to see or run something... even if it was contrary to what they were running.

I mean act upon it... sure I can fully picture a DM never doing it... Yet never having an interjecting thought is something else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 01:06:03 am

Because "RANDOM!" without some underlying reason, is game breaking, and not fun for the players?

Now, if you have some sensible plot device that creates RANDOM!, then by all means, have it activate at RANDOM! times--  but you need that plot device to make it sensible, and you shouldnt turn it on all the time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:07:55 am

I construct my games and worlds according to the thought process that is running through my head at the time, once the details are in place everything else about the world is determined by player action or lack thereof, if the players ignore something important, they have to deal with the fallout, if the players stumble onto something interesting they might just have created a whole new branch of story.  I don't have set plots, I don't bother with pre-fab dungeons, I build history so that my players have something to stand on while they shake the heavens.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:09:44 am

It just is such an alien concept for me to think of someone who NEVER EVER has those thoughts. Ohh well I'll just drop it.

It doesn't matter if it is the right thing to do wierd. I am only speaking of the urge.

Like the urge to put peanut butter on pickles... You know it won't taste good... but you kind of want to see if it does.

---

I actually try to limit the amount of random "me" content in my games. I would certainly would LOVE to run a game that was more... "Me" flavored.

But I have no doubt in my mind that no one would like something that kind of had everything I like.

But... I am running a game soon... I could test that and start designing things the way "I like them" and in accordance to how I think the players will like it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:12:22 am

It's kind of the same reason I don't allow evil PCs (unless there is a good reason), my players are big damn heroes, and if I'm doing my job that's how they feel.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 01:14:15 am

I have never hosted a game, so let that be a big, bolded caveat here--  But personally, I would create a sourcebook type DM material guide that has all the "Interesting, but essentially meaningless shit" about the environment currently in play in it, and have a general overall end goal, and a small handfull of "cutscene" type events that are major plot events, that happen weather or not the players are present.

A bank robber is going to rob the bank, weather or not they are there to deposit their gold. 

THe necromancer is going to raise his army and assault the city jail to get his witch lover out of magical lockup, weather or not the players catch wind of it and decide to try to stop him.

Etc.

EVERYTHING is connected, even if only really REALLY tangentally.  The actions of the players in the city is itself a source of action that causes ripples through all other possible events. 

I would keep tabs on a handful of "important" activities going on, and then work the consequences into the current setting.  "Plot bait" if you will.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:17:16 am

Yes, mostly like that, but without any big over-arching goal, just events like in the real world.  I've run a few plot based games, and they mostly just fall flat for me, the badguy I envisioned just isn't enough for the story, the events don't have the impact I need, the people are too artificial, so I stopped doing it fifteen years ago, and have never looked back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:19:44 am

Ok just to give an idea of what I mean... Here are some thoughts I had and wanted to put into my games

1) A sort of area where only animals could go... so to go through it, the PCs would be transformed into animals
2) A land made completely out of candy and sugar where they would have to survive... but "create food and water" has been tainted and only give candy and syrup
3) And entire dungeon that is just a giant hot tub owned by a Red Dragon
4) A Warrior who rides a mechanical horse with a pole in its back, who can wield this mechanical horse as a hammer.
5) An orb that can grant the players powers but slowly transforms them into dragons each time they use it
6) An adventure where the players shrink down and go inside someone's body as it is invaded by a magical virus where they have to fight it!
7) A shadow creature who creates evil versions of all the PCs, each of whom become big bads in it of themselves.
8) Actually I would love to have a dungeon that is just the subconscious manifestations of the players
9) A paladin whose armor is flat out blinding to everyone around him
10) A Whip user who uses a whip covered in roses and casts spells that way.

I am WAY too weird...

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:17:16 am

Yes, mostly like that, but without any big over-arching goal, just events like in the real world.  I've run a few plot based games, and they mostly just fall flat for me, the badguy I envisioned just isn't enough for the story, the events don't have the impact I need, the people are too artificial, so I stopped doing it fifteen years ago, and have never looked back.

It is just important to be flexible in your original plans.

I havn't developed the skills for it but what someone told me still holds true... The players don't have the ability to look at the plot... so... Just rewrite it as you go along.

That is what kept my last game going as long as it did

I still prefer story... but my difficulty is translating the story in a way the players can see, notice, and appreciate.

I used to make up things on the spot... but I kind of learned I shouldn't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:22:46 am

My games run for years Neo, unless I am specifically doing a 'cannonball' adventure, my games invariably last between two and four years.  I have on occasion had as many as five games with overlapping groups running at once in up to three different rulesets (i.e. D&D, Whitewolf, and Palladium.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:23:39 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:22:46 am

My games run for years Neo, unless I am specifically doing a 'cannonball' adventure, my games invariably last between two and four years.  I have on occasion had as many as five games with overlapping groups running at once.

It isn't a criticism. It is how you run a game with a grand story.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 01:24:10 am

A lot of those are too contrived for casual deployment.

Willfull suspension of disbelief is a requirement for good story telling and immersive role play.  The blatantly silly needs to be kept to tolerable levels, unless the whole session is intended to be a farce, or the environmental setting gets changed through an event such that "OMG! BATSHIT CRAZY!" is now the "expected norm."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:25:05 am

Which is why I curb my sort of... more... whimsy desires.

Hence why in one dungeon my only whimsy was a giant octopus monster in the toilets.

While another was itching powder bomb in a chest.

Running a great game still seems insurmountable to me... even if I did it successfully once.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 01:30:12 am

I would say, BE VERY WARY of creating "The magical realm of the whizzard".

Fetishes take many forms, and need not be sexual.  They are all equally annoying to players.  A role playing game gives players a role in which they can interact with a world.  Not a casual seat on a fun-ride, that forces them where the rails demand they go.

A good scenario with an overarching plot device makes allowances for the players to completely ignore that device, and allow the bad outcome to happen.  WHo knows, the aftermath of the bad outcome may be a very interesting setting, filled with lots of additional conflicts, and would deeply embroil the players in trying to fix the fuckup they could have averted if they hadnt been playing Tavern Hero 3, Drunken barmaid edition instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:32:08 am

Back on the subject of NPCs, does anyone here encourage or get involved in romance, sex, and family obligations in their games?  (I do, but I don't consider my style to be normal.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2015, 01:34:29 am

None of the tabletop games I've been a part of have lasted long enough for that sort of thing to happen. Not with the NPCs, anyway. I remember one D&D 3.5 game I was in where two of the PCs were in a relationship and had a family in the epilogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:37:06 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:32:08 am

Back on the subject of NPCs, does anyone here encourage or get involved in romance, sex, and family obligations in their games?  (I do, but I don't consider my style to be normal.)

I've had that happen in my non-dnd games.

They tend to work out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:38:04 am

As I said above, my games tend to run long, and eventually things just tend to happen, sometimes I or my players go out of their way to ensure that romances blossom, families are founded, etc., just wondering if anyone else had experience with that kind of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:39:29 am

I havn't had games that lasted very long... I am still rather new to DMing and right now I am just trying to connect with my style while being able to make games fun for players.

And I've had some success but a lot of failure xD

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 01:40:27 am

I believe in action and consequence.

Getting a successful CHR role to smooze the barmaid at your favorite tavern should have long term consequences.  She now wants to know all kinds of embarassing things about you-- She wants to go on actual dates now, she wants jewelry or flowers-- she takes serious offense when she hears about you flirting in other taverns,-- maybe she gets pregnant from your little fling--- So many ripe possibilities for that flippant player action, that their short sighted, impulsive decision making just did not consider would happen.

Likewise with just taking something from a peasant's house.  (Or leaving something in a peasant's house).

If the player's actions are sexual in nature, consequences from that sexuality are rational and to be expected. Just because it is an RPG does not mean they get to have guilt-free, consequence free trysts with whatever NPC strikes their fancy. Action demands consequence.

This can be good-- having a good, working relationship with the barmaid can lead you to some good information, or get you a discount at the bar-- She might even be a really good girlfriend!  It can also be bad-- She might be moody, or she might claim you raped her when it was totally a consentual affair.  She might be married, and her husband might find out, and come to hunt you down.  So many possibilities.

The basic thing though is Action and Consequence.  EVERY action has consequences-- otherwise it isnt an action.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:43:56 am

I certainly agree with all the above sentiments weird, I try to use the family card sparingly in my games, but sometimes it can be an incredibly effective goad to action (One of my players, years ago, had his whole family kidnapped by an aggressive expansionistic empire, and he started an all-out war to get them back, culminating in the explosive redecoration of their capital world.  He did rescue his family tho'.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 01:50:55 am

One thing you definitely want to do is try to give the players a sense of security OR paranoia... when appropriate.

Far too many times have I heard stories of players afraid to even read books on a shelf because one of the books might steal their souls... when there is no reason to believe it might happen other then some DMs just outright doing it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 01:56:04 am

I admit to having that reaction to dungeons.

Nothing sets my teeth on edge quite like hearing "The entrance is little more than a weathered opening in a craggy rock face. Vines and moss have grown up around it, obscuring your view of the inside."

or "You see a large altar before you, a shining jewel perched on top."


I would be flinging detect magic and investigating EVERY god damned thing about those before even DARING to get NEAR, due to the cliche over use of "Oh yeah, suddenly monsters!" and "Oh yeah, suddenly magic flamethrower of doom." that DMs like to use.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:57:37 am

I admit to my own views effecting my use of the family card, if your family is threatened regularly then they become a serious detriment to long-term enjoyment of the game, but if I as the DM use the family card in an extreme situation, I can get the players moving with serious impetus (in the above mentioned example, I pretty much expected the player to try a daring rescue, and was very surprised when he called in every favor he had to assemble a multi-million ship strong fleet of starships and carved a path of burning worlds through the hostile empire.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2015, 02:02:24 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 01:57:37 am

I admit to my own views effecting my use of the family card, if your family is threatened regularly then they become a serious detriment to long-term enjoyment of the game, but if I as the DM use the family card in an extreme situation, I can get the players moving with serious impetus (in the above mentioned example, I pretty much expected the player to try a daring rescue, and was very surprised when he called in every favor he had to assemble a multi-million ship strong fleet of starships and carved a path of burning worlds through the hostile empire.)

Whoa, holy crap. What sort of game was this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 02:03:42 am

One thing I love to have when I run a game

Is to have a player who is a confidant, as in someone you can talk about the game with and give spoilers, who is an experienced DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 02:05:47 am

It was a Rifts game, set partially in the Three Galaxies, the baddies were the Kreegor, and the good guys were an assembly of the FWC, the CCW, the UWW, and three factions of my own creation.  The battle was unreal.  The politics was helped by the fact that his family consisted of members of those three factions I created, and my factions had very good relations with the others.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 02:08:03 am

Some game settings freely have space opera and high fantasy in the same worldspace.  Starships shouldnt be that remarkable as a plot element.

Neon:  You would probably love me as a player then.  As somebody with basically no sex drive, I get irritated when other players inevitably do the "smooze the barmaid" routine. If they do it too often, my chances of whispering to the DM about causing complications for them would increase dramatically. (say, PURPOSEFULLY hooking them up with a same-sex prostitute after getting them hammered, etc.)

When playing a player character, I tend to play a character that trusts the other party members to not be selfish dicks, and that focuses on party survival instead of personal enrichment.  EG, if somebody needs to climb the sheer rock face, and has the better climbing stat, but I own the rope, I will hand them the rope, but expect it back afterward.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 02:12:59 am

I don't really get to actually be a player much anymore, I love coming up with fun character concepts (usually without any kind of combat ability at all), because when I run a standard character things tend to get out of hand quickly (I don't munchkin, I never minmax, I just tend to take actions that are so far out there that every single DM/GM I've ever tried to run with just gets lost.)  I miss just playing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 02:13:26 am

Well if only you were available as a player Wierd.

This whole topic has made me nervous about being able to run my upcoming game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 02:25:01 am

I really think that we (Bay12 forum goers) should arrange a skype or IRC based Pen and paper time slot. We already do roleplay type things in the subforums anyway with the community fortress type things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 02:25:47 am

Quote from: wierd on May 26, 2015, 02:25:01 am

I really think that we (Bay12 forum goers) should arrange a skype or IRC based Pen and paper time slot. We already do roleplay type things in the subforums anyway with the community fortress type things.

With revolving DMs?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2015, 02:29:12 am

Nothing set in stone.  I'd go more for having options presented at the beginning of each session, so that several possible irons are in the fire that can be chosen from.

Eg, "Hey, let's pick up where left off on Neon's campaign tonight, instead of continuing MaximumZero's-- anyone game for that?" followed by a quick player vote type thing.

That way we can pick and choose, and not feel stuck in a rut.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 02:34:44 am

I have a feeling my turn won't come up often :P

Trial by fire and all that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2015, 02:38:09 am

Quote from: wierd on May 26, 2015, 02:25:01 am

I really think that we (Bay12 forum goers) should arrange a skype or IRC based Pen and paper time slot. We already do roleplay type things in the subforums anyway with the community fortress type things.

Check the Forum Games and Role-Playing board. There's plenty of games doing this already :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 02:59:42 am

Quote from: Sirus on May 26, 2015, 02:38:09 am

Quote from: wierd on May 26, 2015, 02:25:01 am

I really think that we (Bay12 forum goers) should arrange a skype or IRC based Pen and paper time slot. We already do roleplay type things in the subforums anyway with the community fortress type things.

Check the Forum Games and Role-Playing board. There's plenty of games doing this already :P

Also good luck finding them :P

It is why I think a recruit section and a "actually play the game" section should be separate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on May 26, 2015, 03:27:34 am

There are for sure forums that already do that.
It's just not this forum. This one's not soley dedicated to DnD or Pathfinder, they are both side-interests of the forum. Definitely interests, which is why we even have the section for it, but not enough to split into even more sections.
The forums primary interest, DF, obviously gets a lot of sections. Even a whole section for community games.
I would recomend GitPGames.com, not only because they're two main interests are DnD and a webcomic based on DnD, and not only because I used to be/still could be a member if I ever bothered to check back in, but because it actually does have separate boards for Sign-ups, IC, and OOC threads.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 03:33:51 am

One of the reasons I kind of do my recruitment here (and this IRC chat I go to) is because I kind of want to host game for people I can loosely call friends. People who would be understanding about how fresh I am to DMing and won't jump down my throat because of a bad mistake.

I kind am looking for a warm inviting environment where I can feel like I can create the best games possible where messing up isn't a big deal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 09:51:16 am

well, I personally wouldn't participate in an online D&D game, but if you guys want to give it a try I'd be happy to help with worldbuilding and serve as a sounding board fro handling situations etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 10:49:34 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 09:51:16 am

well, I personally wouldn't participate in an online D&D game, but if you guys want to give it a try I'd be happy to help with worldbuilding and serve as a sounding board fro handling situations etc.

I would appreciate that... my old sound board bro kind got busy... and the even older super genius sounding bro got distant.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 11:39:11 am

On the subject of worldbuilding, do you guys like high-fantasy or low fantasy?  Realistic worlds or fantastical worlds?  Why?

I tend to make High fantasy world that are realistic (the world is physically bound by the same processes as Earth, tho' magic may alter them sometimes.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 11:42:59 am

High-fantasy fantastical worlds.

Because they kind of offer the most in terms of situations and obstacles... and I mean that even as a player.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 11:47:05 am

I dunno, landslides/mudslides/floods etc. can be rather terrifying obstacles too.  Really fantastical worlds are pretty cool tho'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on May 26, 2015, 11:55:46 am

I like high-fantasy for the monster's/PC's but I also implement a lot of low fantasy challenges... like wading through a swamp and contracting boot rot.
I suppose I'd be mid-fantasy then?  Magic and neigh-super power levels of swordsmanship but you are still totally mortal bodies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 12:15:47 pm

Quote from: kilakan on May 26, 2015, 11:55:46 am

I like high-fantasy for the monster's/PC's but I also implement a lot of low fantasy challenges... like wading through a swamp and contracting boot rot.
I suppose I'd be mid-fantasy then?  Magic and neigh-super power levels of swordsmanship but you are still totally mortal bodies.

Well no. Even high fantasy never forgets that sometimes a knife to the back is far more effective then a fireball to the face.

You need ordinary regular events to ground the setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on May 26, 2015, 01:30:21 pm

Posting to watch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 26, 2015, 01:45:30 pm

Most of my experience with D&D has been through computer games (mainly Dark Queen of Krynn, the Baldur's Gate series, and Temple of Elemental Evil.

I tried to play a real campaign with people a couple of times but the first one fell apart due to my inexperience and poor preparation as a DM and the players' inexperience with the system, and the second time didn't work out because my schedule conflicted with everyone else's in the group. Didn't stop me from buying an assload of the rulebooks though.

EDIT:
I also play D&D Adventure System, but that doesn't really count.

EDIT:
I also briefly drew a comic/ISG set in the Abyss on MSPA's messageboard that got shelved due to lack of interest.
http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?52649-Ekolid-A-Demonic-Adventure

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on May 26, 2015, 02:12:06 pm

Quote from: wierd on May 25, 2015, 11:52:43 pm

Does not railroad plot, and permits players to spin their wheels in futility chasing geese around, if that is their wish-- but at least makes said goose chasing entertaining, and thus still enjoyable for the group. Part of a good setting for the plot is an evocative, and alluring environment that begs to be explored, after all.  Not all exploring is going to advance the plot, but exploring is part of what makes a good game session fun and entertaining. A good DM is not afraid of "irrelevant bullshit", as long as it is setting appropriate, and not just players being shits. (The story equivalent of drawing dicks on everything, just because they can.  A good DM would let somebody do that, then have the offender arrested by the city guard for vadalism and lewd public displays, and conjure up a new mini-plot device about getting ShitPlayer out of jail.)

Does not produce consequences that are bullshit.  Produces consequences that are sensible, rational, and fitting to the story and setting.

Does not try to murder offensive player characters; instead, "encourages" better behavior through appropriate application of consequences.

NOT a rule book beating puritanical tyrant.

I'll agree with this in general terms, but I'll say you shouldn't be too enthusiastic about punishing players. Certainly let players do as they wish, but if they're being disruptive and annoying, it's better to deal with that out of game than dragging your game down to teach the problem player a lesson, which may not even work.

Also, it's nice to ask players if they really want to do something or just paraphrase what they're doing before you enact consequences, even if it's too early for them to know what those consequences will be, so that they properly see that they caused this to happen. Not necessary, but nice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 04:08:56 pm

Artifacts, are they in your games?  Do you like them?  Hate them?  Do you feel they add anything to the narrative?  Do you have any stories to share?

I love 'em, use them all the time, I've got worlds with artifacts that can do unimaginable things (okay, not unimaginable, I imagined them), I've built artifacts that do silly things, terrifying things, and everything in between, hell I've got PCs who's SO IS an artifact.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on May 26, 2015, 04:17:07 pm

Yeah I've used artifacts before but mostly they have started off as something unassuming with a particular trigger condition or usually some form of drawback/issue until the PC's figure it out.... basically artifacts in my games tend to have their own little mini quests even after you get them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 26, 2015, 04:20:39 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 02:59:42 am

Quote from: Sirus on May 26, 2015, 02:38:09 am

Quote from: wierd on May 26, 2015, 02:25:01 am

I really think that we (Bay12 forum goers) should arrange a skype or IRC based Pen and paper time slot. We already do roleplay type things in the subforums anyway with the community fortress type things.

Check the Forum Games and Role-Playing board. There's plenty of games doing this already :P

Also good luck finding them :P

It is why I think a recruit section and a "actually play the game" section should be separate.

That's a good idea

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 11:39:11 am

On the subject of worldbuilding, do you guys like high-fantasy or low fantasy?  Realistic worlds or fantastical worlds?  Why?

High-fantasy has less need for awkward plot contrivances.

Fantastic worlds are more interesting han realistic ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 26, 2015, 05:03:03 pm

ptw

I gots some stories. Not just of the problem player.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 05:37:33 pm

It seems like your games would rarely have something that didn't involve him. :v

Anyway, we're all ears.

Oh, right, my current in-person campaign just took a turn for the darker. We're in, like, a cave network under a tree, full of corpses/half-alive people, and the roots are growing/burrowing into them, turning them into nutrition and blights.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 05:45:04 pm

Ok artifacts

In my last game I hosted I had a bunch of crystals which were basically a broken "cog" that was connected to a giant Feng Shui machine that could shift landmasses

Because these crystals essentially harnessed the power of the earth themselves they could be used to enhance your own powers and abilities (something the players refused to do out of fear it could corrupt them... a detail I originally didn't intend but I ran with it).

Oddly enough the hunt for these crystals wasn't all important. It actually ran more in the background as other threats weaseled their way into the world, with these crystals sort of being the catalysts.

And YES I know it is very Inuyasha.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on May 26, 2015, 05:58:54 pm

A THREAD FOR ME WAHAHA Posting to watch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 06:32:36 pm

Ok guys...

It is sort of a bad tendency of mine to bend over backwards for players when I shouldn't (and to be too ridged when I should be flexible... HURRAY! I suck at this!)

But uhhh...

How possible is it to have a good and fun game with 7 players?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on May 26, 2015, 07:27:17 pm

Not to stab myself in the back seeing as I was the last to join but... anything more than 4 chars in pathfinder or dnd makes combat take forever.... however for the purposes of role-playing, larger groups tend to keep themselves better entertained and need less gm input for conversations.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 07:37:38 pm

Yeah, combat's gonna move at  a FEF-like pace with seven guys, UNLESS they're all very coordinated. Even then, you'll be rolling a lot.
There's also a better chance for inter-character drama and interactions.

There's ups and downs. Personally I wouldn't want to DM for more than 5 people at once, but my style is more focused.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 26, 2015, 07:44:05 pm

I've routinely played in groups of five or more, not including DMPCs.

The most annoying part would be combat. It should be mostly fine, if you boost the encounter difficulty a bit, so long as there isn't any minionmancers or pack-hunters. Team Too Many Friends brings a slow game into an outright stall.

There is also the possibility of some players not getting to do anything because of one player being overly optimized or min-maxed, but that isn't the DM's fault. Or at least, it shouldn't be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 07:49:05 pm

Well, it is, sorta, for allowing the player to do that. (If it's on munchkin levels, at least.)
Either that or not tailoring the encounters to the party's strengths and weaknesses. That minmaxer 'aint doing shit if all his damage is Physical and you end up against Physical-resistant enemies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 07:51:25 pm

Lucky for me no one has gone for a powerful class yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 26, 2015, 07:54:00 pm

That is why DM is the FINAL ARBITER Neo, if they go for something you don't want in the game, you can say "NO".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 26, 2015, 10:40:13 pm

Y'all want to hear about 'that guy' DM and his magical realm?

Spoiler: Introductions (click to show/hide)

>It all started after we killed evil lord what's-his-face #9834 from taking over the world.
>Together, us six adventurers from some small town of no real importance had accomplished the unaccomplishable. Shut up, it's totally a word.
>The first of us is Delirious, the helf-elven mercenary Fighter, and his trusty adamantine elven curved blade, Tetris.
>Next is our aasimar Cleric, Dicker, who tended to our wounds and gained a hard-on for killing undead the second he found out his goddess hated them.
>Followed by Vandal, our ratfolk Rogue/Wizard who did just about everything so that no-one else could have fun.
>Then there is... Uhh... Our catfolk Investigator. Not really memorable. Stupidly high AC though.
>One I do remember is Shitaki, the human Ninja. He tripped things, and liked to stay invisible all the time.
>Finally, there is I, the aasimar Paladin. I hit things, with the help of my trusty horse, Horse. Not really, it was just a glorified meat motorcycle during the entire campaign.
>I finally got around to statting and gearing Horse after the campaign was over. It is a beast, and I regret not using him.
>After our mission had been completed, we parted ways.
>Anyways, the player of Vandal wanted to run his own campaign, with all of our characters returning. Unfortunately, we obliged.

Spoiler: An Adventure Renewed (click to show/hide)

>Five years had passed since the group had last been together.
>No-one did much. Paladin went on a pilgrimage. Cleric went on an undead hunting safari.
>Fighter kept on fighting, Investigator did nothing.
>Ninja went home to his emperor, and trained more ninjas.
>Wizard stole the big bad evil guy's tower for himself.
>Suddenly, one day we were all attacked by demons that literally appeared out of thin air!
>Yea, I know, it's stupid. Just roll with it. It's not that bad yet.
>Forced to fight a demon one-on-one, whatever shall we do?
>Paladin obliterates a pit fiend without breaking a sweat.
>Investigator can't hit for shit, but can't get hit due to high AC. Eventually nickel-and-dimes it to death.
>Cleric spends several turns self-buffing, gets to a point where he can no longer be hurt.
>Outraged, the demon levels an entire town to goad the Cleric.
>Fighter gets dominated by demon.
>"Oh wait, don't half-elves have a resistance to mind effects?"
>"Damnit! Okay, fine." Fighter is fine, cuts demon in two.
>Ninja gets stunlocked by demon.
>Ninjas_have_poor_fort.png, HFW: (;-;)
>Other ninjas nearby see this, and use the Ninja's friendship bracelet to port in Cleric.
>Before porting, Cleric uses his own bracelet to port in Paladin.
>Round_Two_Bitches.avi, today is the day of the paladin.
>Cleric arrives in ninja-land, doesn't understand a word they are saying. No points in linguistics FTW.
>Sees demon, knows what to do anyways. Uses a prismatic sphere, which turns it to stone.
>Battles are over. Cleric uses bracelet to port everyone in.
>Where's Wizzy?
>Go back to BBEG's lair. Now a large bustling town thanks to Wizard.
>No-one has seen Wizard for weeks. Assumed he was studying in his library as normal.
>Enter tower. Pretty much destroyed. Found Wizard in library. And kitchen. And in various other rooms.
>Cleric uses true-resurrection, hears a voice in his head.
>Voice says that this was the last raising of the dead he could ever perform.
>OhShit.jpeg, running DarkSouls.exe
>Ask Wizard what happened. "Demons, dumbass."
>"We should go find out why we were attacked!"
>Nah, I was planning on just sitting here and waiting for the next wave of them.

Spoiler: Quick, To the Other Side of the World! (click to show/hide)

>All somehow back in ninja-land
>Not even sure of how we got to tower in the first place. All Aboard the Magical DM Railroad?
>Ask what to do next. Wizard has an idea.
>Overheard demons talking about where they were going next.
>Off to Katapesh, which is a ways a way the fuck south from where the country the adventure started in.
>"Wait, aren't we in a completely different continent?"
>"Right, that's why the Ninja's emperor has commissioned a magical flying boat that can travel from here to where we need to be in less than a day"
>Couldn't one of us just use teleport? Nah, that would imply logic. Magical flying speedboat time!
>Arrive in city of Katapesh, the capital of the country Katapesh.
>That's actual canon. Probably the only correct use of it in the entire adventure!
>Ask around to find out who may know of the demons' target. Beggar boy says he can show us to the regent for some silver.
>Cleric gives him 300 gold for showing us the way. Kid is probably one of the richest people in their district now.
>Ask guards to let us through, and they oblige after learning of who we are. They call the regent, who has a feast prepared for us.
>See slaves. No es bueno.
>Get angry over slaves.
>"But slavery is law here!" the DM says. "As lawful characters, you respect it!"
>Cleric and Paladin follow a goddess of freedom. DM shit won't fly.
>"But wait!" the DM implored; "You hear the voice of your goddess in your head!"
>She said that she is fine with slavery, and for us to ignore it.
>Eating feast, regent calls for entertainment to be brought out.
>Half naked, obviously starved bard comes out and is made to sing. DM says we are fine with it again.
>Bard does not sing well enough for regent's liking. Backhands her, and has guards strip her and start whipping her to make her sing better.
>All the lawful characters are forced to applaud by the DM.
>Fighter is chaotic good, and so is the only one allowed to step forward and call bullshit.
>Wrestles guard with whip, begins whipping him in return.
>Get booted out of the castle, but are welcomed to return whenever (??)
>Learn that regent has no real power, but the council that puppets him is even worse.
>Wizard and Cleric sneak into castle, asks Bard how we can free her.
>Told that the only way to win the regent's favour would be to win a gladiatorial tournament.
>We enter, and are faced up against a bunch of level twelves and one level twenty.
>Numpties go down easy. The level 20 rage prophet almost murders the fighter with one full attack action.
>We win, barely. Regent asks what we want as our prize. We want Bard.
>Tell Bard our situation. She somehow knows where to go.
>Leads us out to the desert, towards an abandoned mansion.

Spoiler: It's a Bird! It's a Plane! No, it's--What the Fuck!? (click to show/hide)

>Wandering around desert for a few hours, see a group up ahead being assaulted by some flying things.
>Approach closer, roll perceptions.
>Just about everyone gets it. Even Horse.
>Gnolls. Riding dragons! How could this be?
>No ranged support, lol. Have to ready actions to swing as the gnolls use flyby attack.
>Paladin detects evil. Gnolls are, dragons aren't.
>Cleric uses some anti-evil ray, kills a gnoll.
>Horse lands on ground, breaks its neck.
>Party's face when: O_o
>"That dragon was a horse!?"
>Actually ingenious use of archetypes to be a dick with gnoll cavaliers.
>Few horses survive, all gnolls are dead. Calm horses with handle animal, give them to the gnoll's victims to ride to safety.
>Continue on to mansion, eventually see it.
>Was not expecting there to be servants still there.
>Inform them of master's death. They don't care, still keep the place maintained.
>Doorman won't let us in. We all try diplomacy, intimidate, and bluffs.
>"WTF, we got well over 40 on some of those rolls!"
>Bard walks up. Fondles doorman. He lets us in.
>Explore a bit. Notice everyone avoids basement. Go to walk down.
>Warned that no-one is allowed down there, and those that go down never return.
>Well, now we have to.
>Walk down, see pressure plate on ground.
>"Disarm it? Investigate it? Nah, let's just force the paladin onto it. He's got good saves, right?" Assholes.
>Step on, lots of grinding noises made, but nothing seems to happen. Continue on.
>Walk into next room. Filled with golems. Plate triggered hidden walls.
>Wizard stonewalls the enclaves that they were pouring out of.
>Send Ninja and Investigator down the hall to grab what they can from the office and flee.
>Rest hold off the golems.
>Ninja grabs everything shiny. Investigator finds odd remote in a desk.
>They look around. Glass office, glass hall.
>Seemingly endless in all directions. Nothing but machinery building golems and pushing them against the stone wall.
>Suddenly loud banging. Investigator turns towards sound, and sees a colossal adamantine golem running at breakneck speed towards the party.
>Machinery breaks as the golem runs through it. The entire mansion shakes.
>The ground shakes for literally miles around.
>Everyone books it upstairs. Servants ask what the hell is going on.
>Investigator pulls out remote, asks who can use magic devices.
>Ninja takes it, yells "STOP!" at the remote. It works.
>We also discovers it summons a flesh golem. But flesh golem are putz at this level, so meh.
>Ninja pulls out shiny thing, we all stare at it.
>Everyone feels the urge to touch it. We are all blinded by a flashing light.

Spoiler: Off to NeverNever Land (click to show/hide)

>Everyone comes to in desolate wasteland. Attempts to discern location yield nothing.
>Only thing of note is a massive tower off in the distance. We cannot see the top.
>Hear sounds of battle off in the distance; run towards it.
>See a lightly armoured figure in combat with two medusae.
>Sexy, unclothed serpent ladies.
>We help the lightly armoured guy.
>Giving a CR7 mythic tiers doesn't magically make them equivalent to level 20s.
>Mysterious figure reveals himself to be a dragon so large that it is several categories above colossal, the largest category in the game.
>Says he is the herald of one of the gods. I forget which one.
>We ask where we are. "How could you not know? You are in Planescape!"
>As thanks, he takes us to the plane of Bytopia.
>Implying he totally couldn't have handled that himself, even though he is stronger in human form.
>Go to search for someone who could tell us what the shiny thing is, as Dragonman didn't know.
>Come across a gnome fisting Hades.
>DM lets joke go on for too long. He had his hand in a portal to the plane of Hades.
>Describes in graphic detail of all the soot and slime coating his arm before letting us in on the joke.
>Ask him to look at the shiny thing. He says it is some sort of device that lets you do a lot of stuff in Planescape.
>Can't remember what it's called, can't be assed to look. I don't think it is from Pathfinder.
>He demands we give him it, we say no and head to the tavern for rest.
>During the night, DM asks us to roll perceptions. Those who pass hear the Bard and the Cleric having sex.
>DM rolls, reveals to us out of context that Bard is now pregnant with twins.
>Still don't know she's a succubus.
>Next morning, we hear the entire bar in an uproar.
>The blood war between demons, daemons, and devils has ended, and all have united under Asmodeus, the ruler of devils.
>Even neutral entities have jumped to Asmodeus' side. Even neutral deities that oppose evil.
>Some even have paladin orders. How the hell does that work?
>Decide that best course of action is to planeshift to Heaven.

Spoiler: Character Assassination: Deicide (click to show/hide)

>Climb mount Celestia, or whatever it's called.
>Apparently all gods reside in huts at the top. Walk into one real loud one.
>All good deities discussing what to do about the fact that it is now good versus everything else.
>Eventually meeting adjourns, and all except Paladin/Cleric's goddess disappear, plus the god of revelry, who fell asleep during the meeting.
>Fighter worships god of revelry, asks to share a drink. God beats him over the head with a mug.
>Because that's totally what a god of revelry and comradery would do.
>He then disappears, and our goddess asks us to come to her hut to discuss a course of action.
>Reveals that Bard is a succubus. No-one really cares.
>Wants to be Cleric's baby-momma to earn redemption.
>We walk into goddess' hut. It's a massive pool inside.
>Goddess starts giving us a strip-tease, talks about what is going on.
>Asmodeus has somehow taken over Sigil.
>His goal is to release Rovagug. A god so evil and destructive that he literally has no allies.
>Even the most evil of gods helped to seal him away because he is just that evil.
>Wait, if the devils and demons have sigil, and have banded together, then why don't they just pour out of the Worldwound and take over the material plane?
>"They decided to close the wound"
>Thanks for filling your plothole with another plothole.
>Goddess starts swimming naked, asks us to go back to the gnome and get him to get us into Sigil using his portal powers.
>Explains how the Lady of Pain decided she finally wanted to be recognized as a deity, and have followers and worshippers of her own.
>Wizard starts swimming with goddess, and starts fingering her.
>Lady of Pain handed Sigil to Asmodeus, so that he could help her.
>Fucking WHAT!?

Spoiler: Infiltration and Tourism (click to show/hide)

>No known way into Sigil. Have to get there somehow.
>Remember Mister Fister, the gnome we met earlier.
>Not his actual name, we just never found out what it is.
>We did ask him, but apparently he hasn't heard it in so long that even he has forgotten it.
>Planeshift back to Bytopia, discover it in ruins.
>Run towards sounds of combat, find two demons in the tavern we slept at earlier.
>Balor has the gnome, another demon is finishing off the last few survivors.
>Fighter cleaves the lesser demon in one swing.
>Suddenly the room fills with gas.
>Roll for Fort, bitches.
>We make the save, another demon walks out of the toilets.
>Doesn't have an aura or anything, it just let off a nasty shit.
>WhyDM? O_o
>Shitdemon raises its hands, and all dead patrons rise as skeletons.
>Level one skeletons. Cleric laughs, channels, and watches as they all turn to dust.
>DM was pissed. Seriously thought that the skeletons could threaten us.
>Paladin tries to smite shitdemon, charges to hit, and fails.
>Has bullshit ability that allows it to negate a number of attacks per round equal to its Con bonus.
>Fighter sidesteps, tries to cut balor down.
>Balor makes sunder attempt against Fighter before he could swing.
>Passed Fighter's combat maneuver defense, auto-destroys the adamantine blade.
>Bullshit.png
>DM tells Fighter that infernal magic destroyed the blade irreparably, and it can only be restored via a greater miracle or wish.
>Costs 25k to cast the spell.
>Shitdemon starts trying to summon. We have enough time to kill it before it finishes.
>Finish off balor via dogpile.
>Cleric uses a miracle to resurrect all the patrons. DM allows it.
>Free gnome from the balor's whip, we all return to Heaven.
>Once gnome is safe, we get him to open a portal to Sigil for us.
>Now in Sigil, but we know nothing about it.
>No-one took knowledge planes. We're dumb fucks.
>Look around a bit, ask everyone we can where the nearest library is so we can study.
>Spend several hours staring at the many strange creatures instead.
>Eventually meet a minotaur who says he can show us where to buy a guide.
>Sense motive reveals he is telling the truth. Cleric bribes him 2k to show us anyways.
>Dumbass wasting his money.
>He brings us down a back alley, we're expecting an ambush.
>He actually shows the way, but Paladin and Cleric can't enter, due to being forms of authority.
>Everyone else walks back out with a skull. Apparently enchanted to act as a sapient guide.
>Cost 50k. Dumbass wasting his money.
>Paladin and Cleric unhappy about the skull.
>DM assured us that the owner's soul had been able to move onto afterlife just fine.
>Ritual required to create skull was evil though, and specifically requires an unwilling sacrifice.
>Ask skull what it knows about Sigil.
>Jon_Snow_Gif.gif
>Dumbass wasting his money.

Spoiler: Slumming it (click to show/hide)

>Start wandering around Sigil, asking random passerby where we might find demons.
>Get told to head to the poor industrial district. Constant war over there.
>Eventually arrive, see demons picking on tiefling for not being a true fiend.
>Charge in, being the good guys we are.
>Ninja tries to trip one. Natural 20.
>"You aren't tripping my monsters! Combat maneuvers are bullshit!"
>Ninja's pissed. Tripping is all he was built for.
>His face when he realizes he's too optimized: (;-;)
>Eventually end battle. Wasn't that interesting.
>Tiefling was of no importance, flees after we save him.
>Hear conversation nearby, Wizard says he'll go investigate.
>Sneaks over easily, he has permanency'd invisibility.
>Sees demons trying to talk fire giants into joining them.
>Wizard sneak attacks them, using some rays and a quickened prismatic spray.
>Kills all but two.
>DM starts bitching about how the encounter was ruined.
>Wizard is DM's character. Dumbass.
>Fight anyways, win easily. Ask to be friends with fire giants.
>"Fuck off".
>Fine. We keep wandering anyways. Fight tons of very weak demons and devils.
>Like, CR 1/3 to CR 7 weak.
>Eventually come across a mansion that somehow isn't damaged.
>We go to enter. DM forcibly splits us up by gender.
>The front door was a portal.

Spoiler: Fundead (click to show/hide)

>Investigator and Bard in the mansion proper. Everyone else in some sort of basement.
>Ninja and Wizard scout ahead, come across kitchen.
>Some sort of giant cooking meat. Ninja tries to sneak attack it.
>Giant is undead, and is immune to sneak attacks.
>Hearing fighting, everyone else runs over. Curbstomp ensues.
>While we are fighting the undead giant, the Bard is trying to convince the Investigator to have a lesbian orgy.
>Bard reveals she is pregnant, tries to leverage that as a fetish to encourage lesbians with Investigator.
>Cleric uses a miracle to teleport the Bard and Investigator to everyone else.
>DM expresses disappointment in lack of orgy. And lack of exploration.
>We continue on, and come across bullrush trap.
>Fighter in front, doesn't get knocked down by trap.
>Commence argument over whether the trap would continue moving after hitting Fighter or not.
>Fighter says "fuck it", cleaves trap in two.
>DM is displeased. Wanted at least one of us to fail and get pushed down bottomless ledge.
>Continue on, enter large chamber.
>Another undead giant. This time a lich.
>Bitches us out for killing his cook.
>Implying undead have to eat, lol.
>Ask where we are.
>"You're in my house, where the hell else would you be?"
>Ask what he does. He has made a deal to supply the demons and devils with an undead army.
>Is the most powerful spellcaster in all of the planes.
>He isn't evil, so we ask how we can get him on our side.
>"Pay me. Give me an artifact, and I will stay on your side forever."
>We have plenty of artifacts we didn't need. DM forgot about that.
>DM displeased.
>Coffin nearby opens up. Out comes a grave-knight antipaladin.
>Starts bitching out lich for swapping sides.
>"Get rid of him, please. I never liked him."
>Battle commences. Fighter charges antipaladin.
>Full round action plus haste and abilities = about 6 attacks. That's all he needed.
>Gets a few hits in, DM screams "STOP!"
>Says Fighter's last few hits did nothing, and that Fighter can no longer get more than 4 hits in a round, ever.
>Would have outright killed antipaladin.
>Nearby walls open, revealing two undead clerics. They used shield-other on the antipaladin.
>All three were almost dead from the Fighter's one round.
>Maybe the DM should have used the lich like he intended to originally.
>Curbstomp again. DM makes terrible encounters.
>Turns out lich was level 12. Maybe he wouldn't have meant that much in combat.
>Antipaladin had artifact armour. Paladin takes it.
>Turns him into sexy woman. Armour morphs into chainmail bikini.
>Gender cannot be changed back, even with a wish or miracle.
>DM is a fetishistic bastard.
>Ask lich how to get out.
>"Same way you got in."
>Door behind us in the room we started in the entire time. We just never turned around.
>Exit door. We are on Mechanus, not Sigil.
>Go back in, ask lich how to get to Sigil from his house.
>"You can't get there from here."
>Fuck.

Here it all is. The entire campaign so far. Hopefully this is as far as it ever goes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 26, 2015, 10:59:52 pm

Here's a cartoon I drew a while back of an Ekolid demon from Fiendish Codex 1 (3.5e).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://s20.postimg.org/qbg3gb6f1/Direct_Hit.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 11:10:58 pm

That DM is hypocritical and also a dumbass. How could he possibly think a few low-level skeletons could pose a threat against a party of fucking level 20s!? Seriously Flyme, whyyyy do you play with that guy? Does he just take PnP too seriously good out of game or something?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 26, 2015, 11:22:49 pm

Like I said, he plays to win, not to have fun. And winning as a DM to him is to make combat so difficult that the players barely survive. Except he's shit at encounters and gets the rules wrong half the time.

He wants every fight to be incredibly difficult. He also wants to be able to create a fight like that with as few enemies as possible. Though fewer enemies make  combat easier for players, as they just mob the bad.

Also realized I forgot another part of the story. Will edit above.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 11:42:41 pm

This guy seems to somehow combine like, so many bad traits of DM, player and person.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 27, 2015, 01:41:02 am

Quote from: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 11:10:58 pm

Does he just take PnP too seriously good out of game or something?

transistors??

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: AlleeCat on May 27, 2015, 01:44:53 am

DM: You stab him in the fac-
Me: I'm wielding a hammer...
DM: You stab him with your hammer.
Other Player: I feel like that would hurt a lot more than with a sword.
DM: Does it matter? The point is, he's dead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 27, 2015, 01:48:00 am

Quote from: AlleeCat on May 27, 2015, 01:44:53 am

DM: You stab him in the fac-
Me: I'm wielding a hammer...
DM: You stab him with your hammer.

It could work with a large headed foe and a small headed warhammer, or with a regular construction hammer turned backward so the nail remover thingy is pointing forwards

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 27, 2015, 02:05:08 am

Quote from: Bohandas on May 27, 2015, 01:41:02 am

Quote from: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 11:10:58 pm

Does he just take PnP too seriously good out of game or something?

transistors??

Ah, the laptop must have screwed me over. What I intended to say was 'Does he take PnP games too seriously and is a good guy outside of them or something?'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: chaoticag on May 27, 2015, 02:38:08 am

Quote from: AlleeCat on May 27, 2015, 01:44:53 am

DM: You stab him in the fac-
Me: I'm wielding a hammer...
DM: You stab him with your hammer.

Spoiler: Well makes sense (click to show/hide)

(http://www.algonet.se/~enda/images/lucernehammer.jpg)

I think a good hammer should always have a pointy bit in it.

Though yeah, I had started playing with a group 5th edition some time back. Might share stories if I get anything interesting to tell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on May 27, 2015, 02:45:31 am

Claw. You're thinking of a claw hammer.
Same kind of thing that killed Verne Miller!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Boltgun on May 27, 2015, 03:22:31 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme

>Half naked, obviously starved bard comes out and is made to sing. DM says we are fine with it again.
>Bard does not sing well enough for regent's liking. Backhands her, and has guards strip her and start whipping her to make her sing better.
>All the lawful characters are forced to applaud by the DM.

This made me cringe so hard. We demoted the DM when he even dared to make my character draw a weapon over nothing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 27, 2015, 08:39:54 am

Quote from: UXLZ

Ah, the laptop must have screwed me over. What I intended to say was 'Does he take PnP games too seriously and is a good guy outside of them or something?'

It varies. He can be funny at times, but if someone is on steam the same time he is, he usually tries to force them to play with him.

He always demands we log into an mmo and join a party with him so he can skip queue times. He refuses to play anything other than dps because he likes hitting for high numbers.

He also gets us to join in an online chat program, but we usually just sit in silence anyways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 27, 2015, 09:14:37 am

Quote from: UXLZ on May 27, 2015, 02:05:08 am

Quote from: Bohandas on May 27, 2015, 01:41:02 am

Quote from: UXLZ on May 26, 2015, 11:10:58 pm

Does he just take PnP too seriously good out of game or something?

transistors??

Ah, the laptop must have screwed me over. What I intended to say was 'Does he take PnP games too seriously and is a good guy outside of them or something?'

No, the joke was that "pnp" is also a type of transistor

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on May 27, 2015, 01:35:19 pm

Quote from: Yoink on May 27, 2015, 02:45:31 am

Claw. Your thinking of a claw hammer.
Same kind of thing that killed Verne Miller!

No, I'd say the thing chaoticag posted is almost definitely a Lucerne hammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucerne_hammer).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 27, 2015, 05:32:25 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 27, 2015, 08:39:54 am

It varies. He can be funny at times, but if someone is on steam the same time he is, he usually tries to force them to play with him.

He always demands we log into an mmo and join a party with him so he can skip queue times. He refuses to play anything other than dps because he likes hitting for high numbers.

He also gets us to join in an online chat program, but we usually just sit in silence anyways.

My oh my, you sure have a Class A Asshole on your hands there Flyme, perverted, stupid, hypocritical and a control freak/self-centered. 'Funny sometimes' doesn't justify it, and from your wording it sounds like he coerces everyone to do stuff with/for him and no one actually ever wants to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Redzephyr01 on May 27, 2015, 07:57:05 pm

PTW

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 27, 2015, 11:29:02 pm

Thanks for posting the stories BlackFlyme, they were entertaining to read.  I can see how parts would be kinda fun.  But...  I wouldn't be able to take the campaign at all seriously with the stuff he pulled.  And erotic content should only be introduced if everyone is comfortable with it.  I wouldn't feel comfortable enabling this guy further.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 27, 2015, 11:35:39 pm

Ptw

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2015, 11:50:26 pm

Keep playing with him. I want to hear more about how bad this guy is. :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on May 27, 2015, 11:56:46 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on May 27, 2015, 01:35:19 pm

Quote from: Yoink on May 27, 2015, 02:45:31 am

Claw. You're thinking of a claw hammer.
Same kind of thing that killed Verne Miller!

No, I'd say the thing chaoticag posted is almost definitely a Lucerne hammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucerne_hammer).

I wasn't responding to him, I was responding to Bohandas:

Quote from: Bohandas on May 27, 2015, 01:48:00 am

Quote from: AlleeCat on May 27, 2015, 01:44:53 am

DM: You stab him in the fac-
Me: I'm wielding a hammer...
DM: You stab him with your hammer.

It could work with a large headed foe and a small headed warhammer, or with a regular construction hammer turned backward so the nail remover thingy is pointing forwards

Edit: Also I just noticed the typo in my original post. Oh gods, how stoned was I yesterday?! D:
That is just embarrassing. Argh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 05:10:06 pm

The first campaign I played with him as DM wasn't quite as bad, though it still had some moments. Nowhere near the same amount of pervertedness though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

>Just joined game, missed the first session, but nothing happened.
>Entire group is mercenaries, hired by some nonspecific king of a nonspecific country to investigate an old catacomb.
>The first few rooms were empty, and I had enough time to make my character before anything happened.
>Fetchling summoner, with their racial archetype and an eidolon that looked like a four-armed, serpentine skeleton.
>Used plane-shift, which fetchlings get as a racial ability, to get here from the shadow plane.
>Everyone is suspicious, but we continue on.
>Long dungeon, we eventually have to rest to regain health/spells/etc.
>Choosing watches, paladin offers to stand watch all night by himself.
>At a point, the DM asks the paladin to roll perception, and he fails.
>Not a class skill, lol.
>Turns out a golem had been sneaking up on our camp, and was going to get the paladin.
>Murders him, gets a crit and does sneak attack damage.
>Everyone was calling bullshit, as the DM had given the golem levels in rogue, and doubled the sneak attack damage due to the crit.
>Luckily, he decided not to make us roll perception to hear the paladin die, as we wouldn't have made the check.
>The next morning, a young wizard comes into the catacombs, sent by the king to help us.
>So we continue on, lucky that the paladin/wizard's player makes characters in batches.
>There's a large chamber ahead with a pedestal in it, which prompts all the magic users to activate detect magic.
>Everyone was blinded, and when we regain our vision, there was a succubus in the room, which immediately tried to mass-charm us.
>Everyone but the wizard made the save, and he ran right over to her side.
>Looks like someone's gonna get their soul sucked out through their dick.
>Best idea we had was to send someone to pin the wizard so he can't cast spells.
>Everyone agreed my eidolon had the least to lose, and I sent it forward.
>Accidentally provoke an attack of opportunity as my eidolon tries to grapple.
>Manages to crit by smacking the eidolon with his book, and avoids getting grappled.
>Shit continued until my eidolon was actually killed by being repeatedly crit with a book to the face.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 28, 2015, 05:29:16 pm

Well this is bad :P

I have to prepare for my game on Saturday and I am frozen with anxiety and procrastination.

Quote

>Everyone was calling bullshit, as the DM had given the golem levels in rogue

I consider that... fair.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 05:32:52 pm

Because a Golem having Rogue levels make sooo much sense, what with their small nimble hands and graceful bod-Oh.

Still, that campaign seems significantly better than the current one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 28, 2015, 05:35:06 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 05:32:52 pm

Because a Golem having Rogue levels make sooo much sense, what with their small nimble hands and graceful bod-Oh.

Still, that campaign seems significantly better than the current one.

It would be a very atypical creature and represent either an intelligent golem or one that has specifically been programmed to perform some rogue feats. Possibly with some physical alterations as well.

The issue isn't that it happened.

The issue is that it feels more like the DM just wanted some sort of cheap creature to get a quick kill.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 05:39:42 pm

Right, I'd be fine with it if the Golem was modified (smaller and lither appearance, lower HP and STR but perhaps higher DEX), but I got the impression that it was a bog-standard Golem that just happened to have Rogue levels somehow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 28, 2015, 05:44:36 pm

Huh, okay I guess programming class levels in could work.  I'd definitely limit it to the programmer's own level in that class, or have to hire someone to assist at a significant penalty.  It'd be time consuming too, and probably require an XP cost (not that XP costs make sense, but balance...)

I don't think physical modifications would be strictly necessary, though they'd be artistically appropriate.  If you don't mind the golem being a low-dex rogue, it'll just have crappy base move silently checks and won't qualify for various rogue-centric feats.

(I don't know Pathfinder, this is all 3.5e perspective)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 05:52:21 pm

Right, but it also wouldn't be able to use Rogue Tools, and so forth. (Its hands would be too big and clunky if they weren't modified.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 28, 2015, 05:59:30 pm

Well Pathfinder wise... it doesn't benefit all that much from getting rogue levels mostly because Fighter levels are awesome

BUT it would get a halfway decent dexterity score if it did that.

Quote from: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 05:52:21 pm

Right, but it also wouldn't be able to use Rogue Tools, and so forth. (Its hands would be too big and clunky if they weren't modified.)

Not all Golems look like... well "Golem" from Monster Rancher

Quite a few look like large ornate statues with long slender fingers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 06:20:52 pm

I'm not sure if there are any differences between 3.5 and 3.P golems. It was just a regular golem with rogue levels tacked on. I can't remember what type, but it was size huge.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

>Not long after we killed the succubus, freeing the wizard, we investigated the pedestal.
>Extremely magical orb on the top, which is what blinded those trying to detect magic, and we try to figure out what it is for.
>Vertical shaft opens up, revealing a staircase down below.
>Eventually make it to the bottom, we apparently descended for hours.
>Reach a massive cathedral room, with only an altar on the far wall.
>Going to enter the room, we notice bard is missing.
>OhShit,Where'dHeGo?
>No-one can find him, DM says we won't see his DMPC until later.
>No choice but to approach the altar.
>After someone put their hand on it, the exit magically sealed and the lights dimmed.
>Giant, six winged, black and red angelic being appears, floating down from the ceiling.
>It thanks us for freeing it, and gives us a bag of gold as thanks, then starts to try and teleport out.
>Very large, but slightly smaller angel comes down from ceiling as well, and shouts to stop the first one.
>Everyone forced to take sides.
>Young wizard decides to join with first angel.
>Our sides meant nothing as the angel successfully teleported away anyways,
>Understandably angry, our inquisitor screams at the wizard, and forces him to own up for his mistake or fight/flee.
>Unfortunately, he chose to fight, though tried to flee via earthglide at one point.
>Pouring salt on a wound, DM ruled that the stone of the cathedral was magic, and could not be glided through, leading to the player to lose two characters in a single session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 07:04:16 pm

Your DM has a noticeable hard-on for Succubi and Bards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 28, 2015, 07:14:05 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 07:04:16 pm

Your DM has a noticeable hard-on for Succubi and Bards.

Remember that old joke about that guy who wanted Mountain Dew and to have sex in the bar?

This DM is like what would happen if that player was real, grew up, and became a DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 07:15:15 pm

And multiclassing as a rogue, for some reason. He really wants to make a memorable character. Tries to even enforce it sometimes.

I remember one, that was a cleric, I believe. Don't remember much, other than the fact that he insisted that everyone refer to his character as "altar boy", as both a friendly nickname and an insult. It didn't catch, but he kept pushing for it.

Currently, he is trying to enforce it with his four-armed character. Asked to make an ocarina out of a seashell, and was told to make a craft check for it.
"I'm not making a check, I just want an ocarina. It doesn't have to be masterwork, or even decently made for that matter."

But you would still have to roll to see if you actually make it instead of destroying the shell or something. He was given it anyways. Then he said he wanted to play it while he sits in the crow's nest of our ship, and he wanted to play it loud enough so that others can hear. Told to make a performance check.
"I don't want to. It doesn't matter how well my character plays it, as long as he gets to play it."

As I've said before, it's like he thinks that if he makes a character memorable enough, internet fairies will come and give him his own blog, and morph him into Spoony One.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on May 28, 2015, 07:54:10 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 28, 2015, 05:29:16 pm

Well this is bad :P

I have to prepare for my game on Saturday and I am frozen with anxiety and procrastination.

Quote

>Everyone was calling bullshit, as the DM had given the golem levels in rogue

I consider that... fair.

My advice, write a text block to get the scene set and then just wing everything else... I am sure we will spend most of the session drinking/smoking and just talking to each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 28, 2015, 07:55:23 pm

Quote from: kilakan on May 28, 2015, 07:54:10 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 28, 2015, 05:29:16 pm

Well this is bad :P

I have to prepare for my game on Saturday and I am frozen with anxiety and procrastination.

Quote

>Everyone was calling bullshit, as the DM had given the golem levels in rogue

I consider that... fair.

My advice, write a text block to get the scene set and then just wing everything else... I am sure we will spend most of the session drinking/smoking and just talking to each other.

Yeah, you couldn't possibly do as bad as Flyme's DM. _Hopefully.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 07:59:06 pm

Nah, Flyme's DM is bad beyond mere incompetence. Neon would probably have to purposefully try.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on May 28, 2015, 08:00:10 pm

From what he described it seems that Flyme's DM did purposefully make all that up in preparation so...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 08:40:44 pm

Yea, he claims to have planned everything ahead of time. Said that he wrote up several stories, in case we resolved different parts in different ways. I have my doubts.

Anyways, to continue on:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

>You would think that someone would have stepped in to stop the fight.
>Once outside, the angel transformed into the party bard.
>Unexpectedly, he explained to us about how he was actually the son of a god, and that the other angel was his evil twin.
>Just nod and continue on, as it hasn't been bad or anything yet.
>Unexpectedly, we meet a witch lost in the woods, which is the paladin/wizard's newest character.
>Strolling back to speak with the king, the bard shares the story of how is brother is pure evil.
>Time is short, as now that he is free, he will begin amassing an army to overtake the material plane.
>Looks like we will need to start forming an army of our own.
>Our plan is to ask the nearby kingdoms for their aid.
>Strangely enough, they are broken down by race, with all humans under one, all elves under another, etc.
>Though somehow the bard never knew about his brother's location, even though he helped seal him.
>The king gave us his support without a question, even though he barely knows us and we only did him a minor favour, in his opinion.
>He tells us that our next best bet for allies would be with the elves, in the elf kingdom.
>Everyone gears up and heads out together in a random direction, because we have never gotten anything specific for the geography of this world.
>Going along a plain, we notice about a half dozen strangely out of place stalagmites.
>All of them were ropers, and even just one would be an encounter well above our current level.
>Major problem with them is that they have a 50 foot ranged touch attack that does 1d6 strength damage, and can use it six times on their turn.
>Everyone went down at least once, because DM didn't read their entry correctly, and thought it was 1d6 bludgeoning damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 28, 2015, 09:32:18 pm

Quote

Though somehow the bard never knew about his brother's location, even though he helped seal him.

You know DAMN HIM!!! Damn him so much.

In the right hands this could have been a big "Ohh damn!" moment... That maybe his brother was NEVER sealed and his memory was altered to think he was.

damn him for not being a competent DM...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 09:48:49 pm

I'm personally more pissed about the ropers.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

>In field with ropers, well out of their habitat.
>Battle starts, ropers use touch attacks, dealing 6d6 each.
>Call bull, ask DM to reread their monster entry.
>"Oh, shit. Sorry guys, their tentacles do 1d6 strength damage."
>Shit, we shouldn't have called him out.
>"Sorry, nothing I can do. It's what the book says."
>Everyone goes down at least once, eidolon ends up banished back to its plane.
>Spellcasters all giving out bull's strength to keep everyone up.
>Barbarian has ability that buffs his health and damage whenever an ally goes down, goes full beefcake.
>Gets swole, becomes the only reason we survive.
>Summoner summons shadows, fight fire with fire.
>Witch gets dropped to negative strength, dies.
>Player points out that only negative constitution kills, not strength.
>"Sorry, my game, my rules. In my games any negative stat kills."
>Player gets mad, leaves.
>Don't blame him, that's three characters in one session.
>Summoner drops a fire wall, so ropers won't reach through it.
>"Bullshit, I'm not letting my monsters take damage for reaching through the fire!"
>Are you shitting me? Each rope can be individually harmed.

Anyone who wants to can cannibalize his ideas, assuming people want to touch them in the first place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 28, 2015, 09:53:04 pm

>uses rulebook's rules that everyone else on the planet uses
>outright violates a rule just to be a dick to some guy who's already died twice

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 09:55:31 pm

As I said, this guy is hypocritical as all fuck. Has anyone ever actually called him out on it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 10:02:32 pm

Not that I can remember.

Also, nobody noticed the hidden messages I put in the first three greentexts of this story?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on May 28, 2015, 10:05:42 pm

I wonder how he'd react if someone started acting the way he does, with the cheaty races and so forth. Probably throw a hissy fit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 28, 2015, 10:10:18 pm

FLYME ARE YOU SHITTING ME

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 10:12:05 pm

Eh, while the kasatha is definitely cheap, it is still an actual race in the game. Not one I think a player should be able to choose, but one none the less.

If it were some bullshit third-party or his custom "human hero", then I could see some serious complaints. At the moment it is the current DM's fault for allowing him to use it, and, admittedly unknowingly, adding two extra feats to progress one single one that is already better than the two-weapon fighting chain.

Edit: kek

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 28, 2015, 10:20:49 pm

Damn, Pathfinder apparently boosts the DC from 18 to 25 vs 3.5e.  Only 1d6 STR instead of 2d8 though, guess it sorta evens out.
But yeah...

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 09:48:49 pm

>"Sorry, nothing I can do. It's what the book says."
[SNIP]
>Player points out that only negative constitution kills, not strength.
>"Sorry, my game, my rules. In my games any negative stat kills."
>Player gets mad, leaves.

Good move by the player.  Even without the first part.  Trying to stick to the RAW is already a losing battle, but sticking so hard to a houserule is just crass.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 09:48:49 pm

>Summoner drops a fire wall, so ropers won't reach through it.
>"Bullshit, I'm not letting my monsters take damage for reaching through the fire!"

Punishing a creative *AND* realistic defense.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 09:48:49 pm

>Are you shitting me? Each rope has its own health pool.

W-what?  The entry clearly says that each rope is destroyed by ANY slashing damage (AC 20).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 10:23:11 pm

Ah, just reread the roper stats. I was misremembering, you are right, it's just an AC you have to hit.

He didn't let us have a fort save to avoid the damage though. Not that any of us could have made that at level 7.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Boltgun on May 29, 2015, 03:00:07 am

You simply don't understand. This is the greatest DM ever, he makes fun and exciting stories.

That or he really want to tentacle your party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 09:22:31 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 28, 2015, 10:20:49 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 09:48:49 pm

>"Sorry, nothing I can do. It's what the book says."
[SNIP]
>Player points out that only negative constitution kills, not strength.
>"Sorry, my game, my rules. In my games any negative stat kills."
>Player gets mad, leaves.

Good move by the player.  Even without the first part.  Trying to stick to the RAW is already a losing battle, but sticking so hard to a houserule is just crass.

Well, technically, 0 or less STR should also kill. Without muscles, you can't breathe anymore. See: giant cave spiders.

If you manage to keep a STR 0 guy breathing, however, he should survive.

However I agree that 0 DX, 0 INT, 0 WIS or 0 CHA shouldn't kill. At least not directly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 29, 2015, 09:29:11 am

Quote from: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 09:22:31 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 28, 2015, 10:20:49 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 09:48:49 pm

>"Sorry, nothing I can do. It's what the book says."
[SNIP]
>Player points out that only negative constitution kills, not strength.
>"Sorry, my game, my rules. In my games any negative stat kills."
>Player gets mad, leaves.

Good move by the player.  Even without the first part.  Trying to stick to the RAW is already a losing battle, but sticking so hard to a houserule is just crass.

Well, technically, 0 or less STR should also kill. Without muscles, you can't breathe anymore.

Even then you'd use he rules for suffocation

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 09:37:39 am

Quote from: Bohandas on May 29, 2015, 09:29:11 am

Quote from: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 09:22:31 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 28, 2015, 10:20:49 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2015, 09:48:49 pm

>"Sorry, nothing I can do. It's what the book says."
[SNIP]
>Player points out that only negative constitution kills, not strength.
>"Sorry, my game, my rules. In my games any negative stat kills."
>Player gets mad, leaves.

Good move by the player.  Even without the first part.  Trying to stick to the RAW is already a losing battle, but sticking so hard to a houserule is just crass.

Well, technically, 0 or less STR should also kill. Without muscles, you can't breathe anymore.

Even then you'd use he rules for suffocation

Yeah, I agree.

I remember them rules when i was playing/GMing Pathfinder, one of my players entered into a river and was swept away. He kept failing his swim checks, it was hilarious. (And everyone thought so). And it wasn't a scrawny guy, oh no. He just had a flaw who gave him a malus to Swim and no points in Swim.

He ended up safe but a few thousand meters downstream. And he had no air for one minute or so, while struggling to keep for breath, and he ended up with no damage.

I don't like the D&D suffocation rules. Far too much arbitrary rules in Pathfinder/D&D. Though I have read some AD&D2 books and I've liked what I saw.

edit: Oh wow. I have read the thread, and seriously, "you're fine with slavery because you are lawful" is the worst argument ever.

Retard doesn't know how alignments work, nor how LG can mean two different things in two different countries.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2015, 11:48:01 am

Yeah, being lawful doesn't mean that you have to respect every law in the world. He said he planned to anticipate every possible option we could make in his campaign, but didn't expect for our almost all good party, three characters of which worship gods whose domains include freedom, to say slavery is bad.

There is the thought that it may have been partly to railroad us, but he is bad with alignments. I believe that I have mentioned the time he tried to force pvp in a different campaign that he was not even DM of. I gave our shaman permission to use an aoe spell that I was in the way of. He then jumped up and exclaimed that as a lawful character, I would be intolerant to friendly fire, and tried to force a fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 12:21:29 pm

Quote

(person) doesn't know how alignments work, nor how LG can mean two different things in two different countries.

Edited for PC

Anyhow... Lawful Good can mean different things within the same country.

Yeah it is more then possible a Lawful Good person could be fully 100% in support of Slavery... It is also possible you wouldn't like it.

I personally think that Good can fight other Good on issues. The difference is that Good usually tries to avoid it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 12:25:03 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2015, 11:48:01 am

Yeah, being lawful doesn't mean that you have to respect every law in the world. He said he planned to anticipate every possible option we could make in his campaign, but didn't expect for our almost all good party, three characters of which worship gods whose domains include freedom, to say slavery is bad.

There is the thought that it may have been partly to railroad us, but he is bad with alignments. I believe that I have mentioned the time he tried to force pvp in a different campaign that he was not even DM of. I gave our shaman permission to use an aoe spell that I was in the way of. He then jumped up and exclaimed that as a lawful character, I would be intolerant to friendly fire, and tried to force a fight.

Control freak DM. The worst kind.

I know because I'm quite sure I have been control-freaky on occasion, if I felt I was not controlling the story anymore. Especially when I was new.

Someone needs to explain to him that stories are made by DM's AND players. Sometimes, the story doesn't go the way it was planned, and it's not a bad thing.

Also he really needs to stop being a control freak. This isn't a videogame where you are mostly railroaded, this is a trip in another world. Let them explore.

Some limits are necessary (examples: PvP, relative power of characters and munchkinism) but arbitrary limits are very bad.

Or you can drop alignments. Alignments are a way to get all kind of personalities into nine descriptions, and it fails.

Really instead of alignment, D&D characters should have personality traits, flaws, and advantages, and they should be rewarded if they roleplay them well. Extra XP isn't a bad way if it gives an incentive for players to roleplay better and have a better story.

Quote from: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 12:21:29 pm

Quote

(person) doesn't know how alignments work, nor how LG can mean two different things in two different countries.

Edited for PC

Anyhow... Lawful Good can mean different things within the same country.

Yeah it is more then possible a Lawful Good person could be fully 100% in support of Slavery... It is also possible you wouldn't like it.

I personally think that Good can fight other Good on issues. The difference is that Good usually tries to avoid it.

True. Although a LG, if supportive of slavery, should at least give them a chance to go free, or at the very least treat them well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 03:52:10 pm

Ok so I have to make a decision between allowing or disallowing a character

I make it no mystery that in Pathfinder I flat out don't like Cavaliers... they feel like a NPC class mostly because their reliance on their Mount sets them up for a lot of disappointing moments that a lot of players wouldn't be able to handle.

But in this case this Cavalier is tossing around 60 damage... when a fireball at this level is only dealing 17

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 29, 2015, 04:00:26 pm

psay
allow it but with AB/Feat nerfs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 04:06:11 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 29, 2015, 04:00:26 pm

psay
allow it but with AB/Feat nerfs

Yeah I just basically disallowed Spirited Charge and the Lance.

I understand the concept behind it mind you. But right now it is potent ESPECIALLY in combination with other feats (namely the Charge and run)

Heck the Cavalier gets the equivalent of that feat at level 20...

But I don't know if I am overly nerfing the character or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 04:20:18 pm

It's heavy cavalry with lances. It's supposed to be the best military unit at this age. Well, that or horse archers.

Besides martial classes aren't the problem in D&D. Clerics, Wizards and Druids are.

Also, you gotta factor in DPR. It's 60 damage per two rounds, or three. They need to charge, and then retreat and do nothing. And they're limited to terrain, and a wall rekts them.

Of course cavaliers are awesome when they charge. It's literally their only good point. Cavaliers are low-tier, really.

Maybe keep spirited charge at a certain level. Let them keep lances... as I said, heavy cavalry with lances dominated the medieval battlefield.

Let them have their manly charging and jousting opponents. It is so easy to counter a cavalier : in a dungeon, or with flying enemies, or with obstacles, or with phalanxes of reach-weapon mooks who are bracing... really.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2015, 04:30:47 pm

Depending on the mount, they may have some issues with actually getting to ride. Unless they are small or have the undersized mount feat, in which case they won't have to worry about squeezing.

But early on, yeah, cavaliers can be one of the heavier hitters because of lance bonuses to damage on mounted charges. I will recommend this: disallow the feat 'evolved companion', as they can use it to get pounce for their mount. Though some companions get it by default.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on May 29, 2015, 04:33:30 pm

Actually naryar, the ride-by attack feat may allow to charge every round in open space, by simply going far enough behind the target and running again next round.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 04:39:46 pm

Quote from: andrea on May 29, 2015, 04:33:30 pm

Actually naryar, the ride-by attack feat may allow to charge every round in open space, by simply going far enough behind the target and running again next round.

Oh, right. You were the cavalier... you know that better than me :P

Though even then using ride-by attack, maybe I would remove 2x damage. Maybe 1,5x damage.

Double damage with a lance due to charging should really be brought to spears as well (no reason you can't couch a spear) and damage should be relative to speed.

Also breaking lances due to excessive damage and stuff. And you needing armor to hold the lance and so it doesn't enter into your flesh and do damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 04:40:50 pm

There are RARELY ways to get a person to leave behind their mount... such as when they need to climb (but ALL cavaliers get their horse boots of spiderclimb)

The Lances and Spirited Charge honestly felt to me as a way to make Mounts worth it because they never improve and thus can be killed off quite easily.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2015, 04:46:21 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 04:40:50 pm

There are RARELY ways to get a person to leave behind their mount... such as when they need to climb (but ALL cavaliers get their horse boots of spiderclimb)

Try making use of cavalry in a standard dungeon. I double dog dare you.

And no, Reduce Person (AND Reduce Creature, is that even a druid spell) is hax. Mostly because reduce person = 1/4x mass = less kinetic energy AND less STR for both mount and rider = far less energy = far less damage.

Not to mention counting the cavalier's Str instead of his mount's for damage... really.

No, I don't care about the D&D rules. I'm trying to make sense of all of this on a realistic point of view.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on May 29, 2015, 04:49:37 pm

ah, right. Lance deals double damage. Well, lowering that during ride-by makes sense... if you are just riding by, you aren't able to land an hit as powerful as you would if you unleashed the full force of a riding horse into the enemy.


the mounted bonus for lance kind of makes sense, but I have to agree that in hindsight spirited charge is quite puzzling in its excessive power. On a critical, a mounted charge with lance+spirited charge kills pretty much any monster. at 20th level, a cavalier charge gets another *3 bonus which, if multiplicative, gives enough potential damage to probably kill a tarrasque and tear the space between planes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 04:57:59 pm

Heck add in that Lance is a Reach weapon (and how being mounted works is you can treat yourself as if you were in any square your mount takes up) and you got quite the recipe for damage.

>_<

This is going to be utterly insane and ridiculous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: chaoticag on May 29, 2015, 06:45:54 pm

This problem can be solved by more constraining terrain as well, rather than (or as well as) trying a nerf if you don't mind the extra effort. Stone walls, potholes in roads, fences, rocks, trees, rough ground, barricades, underbrush, low hanging branches... It should add a bit more variety to your world rather than always being on plains.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2015, 06:52:35 pm

It's kind of funny that the vast majority of the games I have played take place on nice even terrain, with well-lit conditions. Even in caves or ruins, mountainsides or at sea, you can charge just fine, and even the humans can see without difficulty.

Though I can at least understand not implementing waves rocking a ship all the time, as no one would want to play a caster if they had to roll concentration every single time they want to cast a spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Deimos517 on May 29, 2015, 08:11:22 pm

I was playing with my family and my brother and my cousins had stopped at an inn. Then, for no apparent reason, my brother, a human fighter, tied up one of my cousins, a fetchling magus, while he was sleeping and cut off his hand! Following this he left through the window leaving the room strewn bodies of the people who had tried to stop him. And my other cousin slept soundly through all the screaming and fighting! It was a bloody mess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 29, 2015, 11:31:56 pm

No, you won't be killing the Tarrasque with your lance, ( the additional x3 is not directly multiplicative, 3.n uses some weird damn system where two x2 become x3, but that really doesn't matter, as the big T has 840 hp across 48d10+576 hit dice (averaged, not maxed.)  It is an amusing comparison tho'.

Also, Naryar, I said no alignment discussion in the OP and I seriously mean it, if it comes back up I'm locking and calling the Toad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2015, 11:43:42 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 29, 2015, 11:31:56 pm

some weird damn system where two x2 become x3

This is coming from someone who doesn't play these games but this makes sense. With x2, you're adding 1 to the multiplier of x1. x1+1 = x2. When you're adding two x2's, you're adding to multiplier modifiers together. x1+1+1 = x3. Does that make sense?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 29, 2015, 11:49:47 pm

Sorry, Andres, I reject the entire though process, it is not sound.  1D4x2x2  Does not equal 1D4x3.  It is a very artificial system to limit numbers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on May 30, 2015, 03:33:23 am

1d4x2x2= 1d4x4. There. And 1d4x4 isn't equal to 4d4.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 29, 2015, 11:31:56 pm

Also, Naryar, I said no alignment discussion in the OP and I seriously mean it, if it comes back up I'm locking and calling the Toad.

...I wasn't starting a flame war about alignments, or disturbing the thread ? I was simply stating that a GM had an overly limited definition of alignments.

Quote from: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 04:57:59 pm

Heck add in that Lance is a Reach weapon (and how being mounted works is you can treat yourself as if you were in any square your mount takes up) and you got quite the recipe for damage.

>_<

This is going to be utterly insane and ridiculous.

Wait till you get 15th level casters.

Also just use the bracing rules, and people with spears/halberds. See his mount go to negative HP real fast.

I'm surprised pikes are not in D&D already. Also that bracing is for some reason, bracing against all directions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Pirate Santa on May 30, 2015, 04:00:41 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2015, 06:52:35 pm

Though I can at least understand not implementing waves rocking a ship all the time, as no one would want to play a caster if they had to roll concentration every single time they want to cast a spell.

I'd say that's reasonable, unless the circumstances are severe.
I"d make them roll a check if:
- They are prone to seasickness.
- Ship is being rocked more than normal because of a storm.
- Ship is being knocked around by a big monster, like a a kraken or dragon turtle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 30, 2015, 07:04:06 am

Quote from: Andres on May 29, 2015, 11:43:42 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 29, 2015, 11:31:56 pm

some weird damn system where two x2 become x3

This is coming from someone who doesn't play these games but this makes sense. With x2, you're adding 1 to the multiplier of x1. x1+1 = x2. When you're adding two x2's, you're adding to multiplier modifiers together. x1+1+1 = x3. Does that make sense?

It's still bad notation. If they mean "+1x" they should write it as such

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on May 30, 2015, 07:08:01 am

it is quite standard actually. The point is that they all multiply base damage, rather than total damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergarr on May 30, 2015, 09:19:03 am

Or rather, it's not x2, it's +100%. x3 is +200%. The point here is to prevent the multipliers from getting out of hand fast. They still do, but at a slower rate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on May 30, 2015, 12:07:00 pm

Quote from: Naryar on May 30, 2015, 03:33:23 am

I'm surprised pikes are not in D&D already. Also that bracing is for some reason, bracing against all directions.

5e has them, though they're basically just the same thing as longspears from previous editions. A proper pike should grant more than 5 feet of extra reach, but then again I'm not sure how you'd be expected to use and maneuver a 10-25 foot long weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)) in most dungeons.

As for being able to brace against all directions, that's an effect of not using facing, though you could probably rule that people can only set a brace weapon for one direction of attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 30, 2015, 12:34:03 pm

Naryar: The point is that the alignment debate is a loaded topic, everywhere I have seen the subject brought up has turned into a very aggressive argument very quickly, so it is not an acceptable topic in this thread.

Have any of you ever tried a fighter fully loaded with ranged combat feats?  That shit is terrifying even without any of the extra stuff in the splatbooks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 30, 2015, 12:36:52 pm

We have a Goliath Barbarian whose plan is to chuck rocks at people, so I think that would count.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulufaic on May 30, 2015, 12:50:07 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on May 30, 2015, 12:07:00 pm

As for being able to brace against all directions, that's an effect of not using facing, though you could probably rule that people can only set a brace weapon for one direction of attack.

That means that you could possibly bring 5 weapons and brace them in the different cardinal directions, excluding down.  That actually sounds kinda cool in a way, like a human porcupine of anti-cavalry death.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 30, 2015, 10:02:03 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 30, 2015, 12:34:03 pm

Naryar: The point is that the alignment debate is a loaded topic, everywhere I have seen the subject brought up has turned into a very aggressive argument very quickly, so it is not an acceptable topic in this thread

It's turned into a mildly aggressive argument that people have gotten touchy about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on May 30, 2015, 10:18:19 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on May 30, 2015, 12:50:07 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on May 30, 2015, 12:07:00 pm

As for being able to brace against all directions, that's an effect of not using facing, though you could probably rule that people can only set a brace weapon for one direction of attack.

That means that you could possibly bring 5 weapons and brace them in the different cardinal directions, excluding down.  That actually sounds kinda cool in a way, like a human porcupine of anti-cavalry death.

Or get eight of them, brace left right forward backward and diagonals, and be a human chaostar

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2015, 12:07:51 am

Ok so I noticed something

I seem to roleplay ALL my NPCs in a way that makes them rather unlikable.

I mean usually it is on purpose... but I always make sure they never give straight answers, and never tell things straight out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 31, 2015, 12:13:54 am

What do you do when a player is complaining that you aren't minmaxed? No one in the party is really minmaxed, other than problem player, but for some reason I am the only one getting flak for it. And being told that oracle is a shit class, while complaining that my undead are OP. Even though I only have one, and it is a mindless skeletal water naga.

He also wanted to skip a good chunk of the story so that he could steal a ship that no player was meant to be able to take at the level you encounter it. We are several levels lower than that. Everyone said no, pointing out that it is a warship that houses at least two hundred soldiers, all of whom are well above our level, let alone the power of the higher ranking soldiers. We said that if he tries, we'd abandon him on that ship to die. He said that he'd force us to stay on it with him.

We wouldn't even be able to do anything with it, as it is such a slow boat that we'd never be able to catch anything with it unless we destroy the target, and hope it didn't completely sink in the time would take to reach it. He kept insisting, even after the DM told him to stop.

Similar issue later, after an encounter with a ghost ship. Wizard had been able to use command dead on the lich captain, while I had used a negative energy channel to command all of the captain's mindless thralls. He insisted that we take the ship, even though the only one who can give it commands is the lich, and the ship itself was tied to the lich's phylactery. Once the phylactery was destroyed, both the lich and the ship would be destroyed as well. Everyone tried to argue so that we could keep the ghost ship.

I also got a familiar, which was a parrot that I believe I have mentioned before. It appears very briefly in the story, and leads you to its dead master. Problem player wanted to kill it, so I took it to protect it instead. Once the problem player found out I took a feat to make it my familiar proper, he started bitching at me for it. Told me that I should have let him kill the bird, and now he'll make more attempts to kill it, and any familiar I get to replace it. He says it's because he really hates parrots, and that every time he plays this campaign, he makes sure to kill that parrot.

So yeah, anyone got any recommendations for what feats to give a parrot familiar?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 31, 2015, 01:37:10 am

... Blackflyme, you honestly sound like you are having group problems, my normal recommendation to a player having group problems is to find a new group.  If finding a new group is not viable, then just stand up for yourself, and tell the problem player to shut up.

Neo, I, at least, would need more information on what your players are upset about regarding your NPCs before I could provide useful advice on that subject.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 31, 2015, 01:40:21 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 31, 2015, 12:07:51 am

Ok so I noticed something

I seem to roleplay ALL my NPCs in a way that makes them rather unlikable.

I mean usually it is on purpose... but I always make sure they never give straight answers, and never tell things straight out.

Your NPC(s? Only seen the one) are great. I'm fairly certain we all like him OOC. IC, however, the party hates him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 31, 2015, 01:48:40 am

I kind of want to see the problem player's character die. Partly because every character has to be some memorable special snowflake, and partly because of him being him. Not everyone has to be minmaxed, and metagaming and cheating is unnecessary.

Says that his character having four arms isn't that much of a power increase, then bitches when the brawler dealt over fifty damage when he got two crits at once on his flurry. He was also power attacking.

The problem player deals over 24 damage before adding weapon damage or power attack, let alone if he were to crit. I don't think he's applying half strength damage to his off-hand weapons like he is supposed to. I think he may even be applying 1.5x damage, as 24 is a lot from just strength bonuses alone.

He's also bitching about how I chose to take inflict spells instead of cures. I'm Dhampir, it's the only way I can heal. Plus we have two bards, a cleric, and cure potions coming out of our ass. I have the least potions, and I'm carrying about half a dozen on me!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 31, 2015, 01:54:34 am

The only 'monstrous' PC I've ever run was a drow fighter-mage, so I just shake my head at all the ridiculous things people run these days, the game is built around the concept of playing 'normal' races.  It can handle non-standard adventurers, but the sheer amount of them I hear about is slightly ludicrous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on May 31, 2015, 06:26:37 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 31, 2015, 01:40:21 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 31, 2015, 12:07:51 am

Ok so I noticed something

I seem to roleplay ALL my NPCs in a way that makes them rather unlikable.

I mean usually it is on purpose... but I always make sure they never give straight answers, and never tell things straight out.

Your NPC(s? Only seen the one) are great. I'm fairly certain we all like him OOC. IC, however, the party hates him.

I like him in character, anyone who is actually shocked that I'd side with a murderer if they paid me more is usually a good paying client later.
OOC I kinda dislike him, but I've also had a string of games (read 10 or so...) in which every single npc never gives any sort of straight answer, he's not as bad as what I've dealt with before (Read: main quest giver npc was a sphinx who spoke in riddles and alternated language each other sentence so if we bugger a linguistics role we literally lost chunks of cryptic information.)

I suppose what I am saying is I kinda like him and any issues I have is really personal bias as opposed to anything you did.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2015, 12:42:05 pm

I guess the issue is that any important NPC I have is usually loaded up with secrets that they cannot tell the PCs... and so they have to find a round a bout way around actually revealing anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 01, 2015, 02:22:09 pm

I generally find that helpful NPCs (but not too helpful) are very useful to a campaign, I don't really like to have the PCs directly interact with people holding major secrets unless there is a very good reason for them to do so.

In other news in the campaign I'm currently running one of my players has been marked by destiny to play a role in the upcoming apocalypse, should be fun to see how he deals with that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: chaoticag on June 02, 2015, 10:24:05 am

Well, that was a little crazy. Looks like I roped myself into running a Pathfinder game, which is fun. The group is going to be 5 players new to TRPGs in general, plus a player that's been gaming for over a decade (she said it's refreshing to have this level of excitement going on). I was going to get them some pregenned characters off the sample character sheets from pathfinder but uh, by the time we had our first meet and greet, all the players had concepts they wanted to play as, some of them even doing some art design while the meet and greet was going on. So long story short, I've finished 3 character sheets so far, and I've got two more character sheets left to put together.

I'm at least loving the enthusiasm. Hopefully it's going to be enough for them to wrap their heads around the rules sooner or later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 02, 2015, 11:28:53 am

Cool, hope it goes well, have you run new players before?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: chaoticag on June 02, 2015, 06:24:25 pm

Sooooorta. To be blunt, I've run a few games of anything before, so we're sticking to an adventure to help keep prep on my end less exhausting, since it's more a checklist than me making every NPC and encounter and monster. I've run a game before for my sister, but it was tough to have something for two other players, rather than a full party. So now we're doing it with her and her friends. I think I can handle new players alright at least. Put in some words about expectations and table etiquite, and I'm not running them by the rules or making them make character sheets since I don't wanna overwhelm them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 02, 2015, 06:51:05 pm

What do when a player won't shut up about how awesome his character was last time he played the adventure path your group is running, and how said character could solo us all?

My current plan is to coup-de-grace him in his sleep and use his bloodied corpse as our ship's new ram. I need to think up something worse in case he tries to kill my familiar again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on June 02, 2015, 06:54:50 pm

Which character is it? The stupid four-armed one?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 02, 2015, 06:57:37 pm

chaoticag, that sounds pretty solid as a plan, if this adventure goes well you should probably walk them through character creation before you do another, so they get a solid feel for the rules.

Blackflyme, you must have the perseverance of a saint to stick with this group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 02, 2015, 06:59:10 pm

It's not the group I have any issues with.

It's this one player. Every. Damn. Time.

Seems like he's getting worse as time goes on. When I first started playing with him, it was mostly fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 02, 2015, 07:00:14 pm

Boot his ass hard.  Disruptive players are cancer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on June 02, 2015, 07:02:01 pm

Or the idiocy of a goldfish... Seriously man, find a new group, or at least find a way to kick your problem player out. >_>

Plan: Spike his drink with sleeping poison, tie him down in a very secure fashion (perhaps get your undead Naga to coil around him as well) then torture at leisure. Proceed with your plan as normal after the fact.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 02, 2015, 07:02:41 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 02, 2015, 06:51:05 pm

My current plan is to coup-de-grace him in his sleep and use his bloodied corpse as our ship's new ram. I need to think up something worse in case he tries to kill my familiar again.

Yeah as I recall his reason for that was really shitty too.  You definitely have plenty of solid justification for that course of action.
You could even kill his *character* first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 02, 2015, 07:26:08 pm

Thing is, his 'super awesome' character he ran was a min-maxed, cheating munchkin, like most of his characters are.

It was a friggin' half dragon wizard. He would apply several metamagics to a single spell, without applying any penalties like increased cast time or casting from higher spell slots. He screwed the entire party over in that campaign because he refused to capture ships, which is where the majority of loot came from. He sank every ship to the bottom of the sea, and the party had next to no gold throughout the entire campaign.

And "I always kill that parrot when I play this campaign", "I hate parrots", and "I hate that parrot's catchphrase" are terrible excuses for routinely trying to murder my familiar. "It'd be funny" and "It'd make good roleplay" are worse. It best it's griefing, and at worst he has issues with me for some reason. He doesn't bitch out other players nearly as often as he targets me.

And he wants me to serve as a reference as he's trying to get into my workplace.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on June 02, 2015, 08:33:39 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 02, 2015, 07:26:08 pm

And he wants me to serve as a reference as he's trying to get into my workplace.

THAT reeks of opportunity to screw him back..

What you do is
1) Agree to be a reference
2) When called or asked about him, tell them about how bad he is at working in a team, then give a positive trait, then tell them about his superiority complex, then a positive trait, and then how he eats children (or something equally illegal that will get him arrested). Make sure you keep their interest by balancing the negative traits with positive until the end.
3) ???
4) Profit!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 02, 2015, 08:55:48 pm

Eh, if they ask about him, I'll tell the truth. Nothing's more damning than that.

But we won't be needing workers any time soon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on June 05, 2015, 09:03:22 am

Well, one of my friends has lost all grip on his sanity and is going to run a 5e campaign next month. I'm the only person in my meatspace friend group that's ever played D&D before, and never 5e, but the DM's a pretty smart guy so hopefully I'll come back with cool stories as opposed to Flyme's horror tales.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 05, 2015, 10:07:15 am

Cool, have fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on June 05, 2015, 12:21:23 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 05, 2015, 10:07:15 am

Cool, have fun.

Indeed.

Meanwhile, based on a comment I made inspired by reading about Dark Sun's character tree concept, it seems I might be running my IRL D&D group's next 5e campaign.

The basic idea is that the PCs are part of an organization, like an adventuring guild or something, with a lot of members, which they regularly send out on different missions with different team compositions. This means that players can switch out whichever characters they want at the start of a new adventure without us having to spend a lot of time figuring out why one character is suddenly leaving while a new one takes their place, which is good, since people my group like to play a lot of different characters. It's also assumed that the characters not being played are busy with some other missions or tasks, to explain why we can't just bring everybody with us, and, if someone dies or whatever, we can have a replacement come by and not need to explain why we suddenly trust this new person who happened upon our group.

In addition to the character stuff, I'm thinking I might implement a magic item lending library, or whatever you might call it, where they contribute magic items to the guild pool, and thereby gain credit to be able to take out different magic items (since the NPC adventurers would find them too). This way, I can introduce a greater variety of magic items into the game without the players themselves having boatloads of the stuff to use at any time; they just get a certain loadout for the mission at hand, which can be switched up when they return to HQ.

Similarly, they'll gain access to things like airships and flying mounts, and their contact with foreign and exotic cultures and races will give them access to new kinds of mercenaries and spellcasters and other skilled NPCs, and possibly this might become a system to unlock new player races. Also, the NPC adventurers will bring back rumors and plot tokens tomes for studying, which will lead to more adventures.

To run things behind the scenes, I'd like to use something like Stars Without Number (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86467/Stars-Without-Number-Free-Edition)'s faction system, reskinned for use in a fantasy setting. I haven't looked through it thoroughly, but this hack (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z-_vf2sY7H5i2a08WCdxnykw8MxxW_4gY0ObvTh2lNU/edit#gid=0) might do the trick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 05, 2015, 03:46:03 pm

Magic items, and Darksun?  Like the horribly rare items that use a permanent part of the planets life force as fuel and contribute to the continuing decline of all life on Athas?  The wonderfully powerful and attractive items that the Dragon Kings would brutally murder thousands of their own slaves/citizens to create or possess?  Well, good luck with that.  Unless I misunderstood and you were only referring to Darksun as an inspiration for this idea, in which case sorry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on June 05, 2015, 06:24:51 pm

Yeah, I only took the character tree concept, the idea that each player has a stable of characters that they can choose from for each adventure. That's the only thing I'm taking from Dark Sun, and even that is modified from the original idea, where you would have one of your non-active lower-level characters level up when your currently active characters levels (at least that's how I understand it, but I don't have the Dark Sun book, so I'm extrapolating from what came up when I Googled "Dark Sun character tree", things like this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/mess-hall/threads/1943671) and this (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7229)). My implementation would have all non-active characters gaining levels at the same rate as active characters, so at this point it the concept might be more inspiration than anything else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 06, 2015, 10:14:33 pm

AAAAAaaaaaaaaaannnd an argument over how a headband of intelligence works. Literal screaming at each other across the table between problem player and two other players.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The books say that a headband gives your level in ranks in one skill, with the skill being set once the band is created. It does not specify whether these are the retro-active points you gain, already preset to a skill, or if they are in addition to the normal retro-active ranks from an increased intelligence. Official sources contradict one another. Not that this is in any way unusual.

Someone found a quote from the creator of Pathfinder in a thread asking the very same question, and he said it's in addition, despite the FAQ saying they are the former, not the latter.

Problem player said that what the creator said does not contradict his interpretation, and that our wizard shouldn't get both the set skill and the extra skill points. We pointed out that once the band has been worn for 24 hours, its bonus goes from a temporary bonus to a permanent one. He disagreed, saying that it is not considered permanent or temporary. Despite the rules saying this:

Quote

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

He exclaimed that next chance he gets, the wizard's headband is going to the bottom of the ocean. And that he will do it with every headband the wizard gets. Plus he threatened my goddamn parrot again.

There was also another DMpls moment, but this time I was in on it too. We killed a huge plant-like creature. I wanted to undead it, but the DM pointed out that there is no space on the ship to carry it. About that time the wizard pointed out that he had a running tally of all the corpses that he had been keeping on the ship, which surprised me. That sick fuck has quite a few corpses down there, including some of the notable characters we've killed. At least I can make undead sooner than he can, though I'm not sure if I can make anything special with just animate dead. Create Dead will be fun at level 10.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 06, 2015, 10:25:48 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 06, 2015, 10:14:33 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He exclaimed that next chance he gets, the wizard's headband is going to the bottom of the ocean. And that he will do it with every headband the wizard gets. Plus he threatened my goddamn parrot again.

Blatant metagriefing is blatant.  If your group insists on keeping him, I hope you can at least agree to kill him IC every time he meta-griefs like that.  If he throws that headband overboard?  I'd murder the character for being insane.  Unless he comes up with an actual good reason for why his character would do that - which sounds completely beyond him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 06, 2015, 10:31:25 pm

Seriously I never had a player who could have stayed in the game pulling that crud constantly.

I had a player who was kicked out of a game for a LOT less then that (pausing the game constantly, doing dumb crud, and generally not being pleasant)

What is he doing to make you tolerate him? Does he buy you all a pizza every game? did he drug your drinks? Is he secretly all your dad?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 06, 2015, 10:40:26 pm

He hosted it at his place tonight. Was the first time in a long time. DM was the one to buy pizza again. I offer money, but get turned down almost every time.

I don't know how he is in other games. I play the least in this group, and everyone else has several campaigns with different DMs and players within different groups.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 07, 2015, 06:57:10 pm

Great session last night, party got tasked to escort the queen to a distant archeological site near the western border of her kingdom, passed within a few hours travel of their northern neighbor, a nation in the midst of political unrest.  Third day out they end up in a pitched battle against hardened mercenaries hired by a northern noble, turns out cavalry specializing in anti-cavalry maneuvers is not terribly useful against magical living tanks.  Turned into a full-bore curbstomp when half the queens escort (the company the players belong to) literally leaps on top of the two hills the mercs are using to mount their ambush, at my players suggestion.  Well played guys, awesome run.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on June 07, 2015, 09:20:19 pm

Friday night's session was good. Playing a Master of Many Forms (which the DM thinks is broken) and stood in a doorway as a cave troll, nauseated, letting the warlock (who complains that we never do anything on combat) blast the fungal gargoyles for fun and profit. Then we run across mushroom folk, whom we saved from the gargoyles and are now friendly to us (and are also plat type so I can turn into them).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dutrius on June 08, 2015, 09:26:32 am

This happened several years back, so I can't remember some of the details.

Me and my family were playing a Rolemaster game with a campaign my dad created. We started in the castle of an Evil Wizard, who offered us a feast. To prove that the feast wasn't poisoned, the wizard started eating, so we started eating as well. During the meal, we noticed there was one more character with us that none of us had made (Some of us were playing two characters, because a party of three is a bit small). After the meal, the Evil Wizard pulled out a potion and drank it, revealing that it was an antidote to the poison in the food. He then told us to go on a quest to recover an artefact of some sort, and in return he would give us the antidote. The extra character turned out to be an DMNPC, who threatened the Evil Wizard by demanding the antidote, and promptly got vaporised.

He gives us some equipment and sent us on our way, also sending one of his minions with us to tell us where to go.

That night, we go to sleep in a cave without checking it properly. In the middle of the night, we get attacked by little rock creatures called granites. One of them bit me while I was sleeping. As I was playing a squishy mage, I instantly got knocked unconscious for the entire fight, and would have later died if the cleric didn't heal me.

The second night, we checked the cave properly. No granites, good. We get attacked by troglodytes instead. This time, my mage was woken up before he was attacked, and was somewhat useful in the fight. I didn't have much in the way of offensive spells, so I had to improvise. I positioned myself behind the fighter and cast a ray of light from my hand towards one of the troglodytes' face, dazzling it so the fighter would have an easier time. We won that encounter after a while.

The next day, a pterodactyl attacked us as we were making our way across a mountain path. The bugger kept flying around and no one could hit it, so I had a think and eventually cast a freeze spell at its wings, causing it to plummet like a stone. It went splat against the mountainside.

Sadly, we had to stop playing after that and we didn't get around to continuing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on June 09, 2015, 05:49:39 pm

pTW.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on June 09, 2015, 08:24:06 pm

Ok, so, actual experience about this. This is from several weeks ago, first session (we're about 3 sessions in, well, I am, as I'm new to the group)

Played Pathfinder for the first time. Would also count as playing 3E-analogue for the first time, at least pen & paper.

Joined this cool gang of players, they seem to be more on the gamist side (for now) than my last group, the one with the control freak DM that wants every PC to be an actor in his play or something.

So, they're playing this Evil(TM) Party. The twist is that it's the same campaign where they're playing a Good(TM) Party, so in a way they're going against themselves, but I think the Evil Party is going to become the antagonists at some point. Also there's plane-hopping.

They're also not Evil Sadistic Crazy Chaotic Stupid, they're sorta stereotypical movie villain, with some silly world-takeover plot. Also involving plane-hopping.

Essentially the party is Evil League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: There's an Inquisitor "Van Helsing", a gunslinger "Quartermain", and a wizard whose analogue I forgot. So of course I decided to join as a monk called Betty. All started as level 10 characters.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://www.gifbin.com/bin/poster-5sw2swsw335yusw.gif)

The party just left a dungeon/ruin thing where they were supposed to fight an Evil Lich. Of course, they all instead become best buddies and swapped Facebook likes and all that, after leaving the lich that they ran into a hero party, and this is where I dropped in out of nowhere (I was sent by the evil elders or whatever group of leaders they have to join them). Of course everyone starts ganging and using their uber-minmaxed characters (I don't even have feats because I haven't even had the time to fill the sheet, heh) doing 200 hp damage per round and whatever, still getting tanked pretty badly tho.

So I go like, well, I'm a monk with crazy speed, I run all the way across the battlefield to hit the enemy Wizard before he has time to do any nasty stuff. Unfortunately, I can't move and Flurry, so I only get one hit. I roll a natural 20.

"Roll to confirm"

Natural 20. The DM doesn't let me roll damage, just: "describe how you kill him"

Oookay... well, Betty runs over him, gives the wizard some sort of atomic nipple twister thru his robe, and then pretty much rips the whole skin from his chest, and he bleeds to death. (here I find out the DM has this as a house-rule, confirming a natural 20 with another is just instakill. Well, at least against NPCs, AFAIK). Pretty fun time. So next round I just run back to the group and help them to gang on the enemy paladin or fighter or whatever he was, I don't remember. We kill the group (we probably were evenly-ish matched level-wise. not sure).

We only played a few hours Sunday morning so we leave it like that. I realize my Monk is really low-tier so it's going to be time to truly minmax him with whatever archetypes and guides I can.

BTW, our ability scores for the Evil Party was: 25 ability points (flat) to distribute among all the scores. No point-buy, just straight up add to each score. I think with a cap of 20, not sure. Mine was: Str: 20, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Wis: 17, IIRC. Also maxxed HPs for both evil and good parties (but Good PC gets rolled ability scores).

The best part is that I get to use Betty's voice for all my roleplaying and taunts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Eldin00 on June 10, 2015, 12:13:57 pm

PTW. Just noticed this thread, and as someone who's been doing pen-and-paper RPGs for over 30 years, this thread most certainly coincides with my interests.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 14, 2015, 02:51:12 pm

Awesome session last night,  During the return trip from escorting her majesty (18 year old 9th level mage, single, father recently murdered (not politically motivated)), the party 'leader' (char data: 27 year old fighter 3/mage 2, single, recently inherited lands and title from an uncle) is awoken in the middle of the night by sounds outside of the officers' tents.  He goes out to investigate and spots a figure moving away from the encampment, follows said figure into the nearby woods to a small waterfall and stream, and of course the figure turns out to be the queen taking a midnight bath unescorted.  He barely manages to avoid doing really stupid shit, follows her back when she's done (out of an actual sense of obligation, his unit is part of the queens personal army, The Hounds.)  Two nights later he gets woken up again, same deal. When they get back to the capital some promotions and awards are handed out, and during the ceremony her majesty makes a faux pas and kisses said leader on the cheek instead of the forehead.  Later that night during the party as the now captain is making the rounds and being sociable and visible, he finds himself slow-dancing with the queen, after a brief exchange of words, he makes a fairly major faux pas, realizes it immediately, takes off and goes on a full-bore rage bender tearing up a large section of the palace cellars and dungeon.  Meanwhile the party thief (15 year old daughter of a countess, married to the company CO) becomes best friends with her majesty, and finds out that the dear queen has been harboring a crush on party leader since she was fourteen and enrolled in the nations magic academy.  All of this wouldn't be a massive problem excepting that the party leaders back story is that he's the black sheep of his noble family and was a sergeant in the capital city guard where he murdered his CO while drunk.  Needless to say, the amount of 'Oh God' during the session was extreme and wonderful.  On top of all this, the party paladin is going to be marrying a common girl in a few months.  All in all a good night.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: CS Dog Boy on June 14, 2015, 06:21:16 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 14, 2015, 02:51:12 pm

Awesome session last night,  During the return trip from escorting her majesty (18 year old 9th level mage, single, father recently murdered (not politically motivated)), the party 'leader' (char data: 27 year old fighter 3/mage 2, single, recently inherited lands and title from an uncle) is awoken in the middle of the night by sounds outside of the officers' tents.  He goes out to investigate and spots a figure moving away from the encampment, follows said figure into the nearby woods to a small waterfall and stream, and of course the figure turns out to be the queen taking a midnight bath unescorted.  He barely manages to avoid doing really stupid shit, follows her back when she's done (out of an actual sense of obligation, his unit is part of the queens personal army, The Hounds.)  Two nights later he gets woken up again, same deal. When they get back to the capital some promotions and awards are handed out, and during the ceremony her majesty makes a faux pas and kisses said leader on the cheek instead of the forehead.  Later that night during the party as the now captain is making the rounds and being sociable and visible, he finds himself slow-dancing with the queen, after a brief exchange of words, he makes a fairly major faux pas, realizes it immediately, takes off and goes on a full-bore rage bender tearing up a large section of the palace cellars and dungeon.  Meanwhile the party thief (15 year old daughter of a countess, married to the company CO) becomes best friends with her majesty, and finds out that the dear queen has been harboring a crush on party leader since she was fourteen and enrolled in the nations magic academy.  All of this wouldn't be a massive problem excepting that the party leaders back story is that he's the black sheep of his noble family and was a sergeant in the capital city guard where he murdered his CO while drunk.  Needless to say, the amount of 'Oh God' during the session was extreme and wonderful.  On top of all this, the party paladin is going to be marrying a common girl in a few months.  All in all a good night.

"A good night" was an understatement. As the perpetrator of said faux pas (I rolled a 1!) I was laughing so hard while still dreading the results of the DM's response roll.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 01:11:16 am

I hope I'm doing this justice...

> Hanging out in the undead continent-spanning metropolis
> Party wizard Gemariah sees ancient tome about the Philosopher's Stone in the museum
> Is a transmutation specialist, begins plotting
> Gets arrested testing a teleport item, locked in antimagic
> We bail him out
> His raven familiar had escaped its cell, summoned spiders, and ordered them "kill everything that isn't Gemariah"
> In common
> Gemariah immediately re-arrested with 10X the bail
> Powerful noble (quest giver) pulls strings for us to get charges dismissed
> Gemariah "goes shopping"
> We hear bits and pieces of the heist, most of it handled by PMs.  Our characters hear distant sirens.
> "Can a will-o-wisp pick things up?"
> "I cast rope trick..."
> "What's the magic mouth even do"
> "The only reason that worked at all was the grease spell."
> He plane shifts from the rope trick dimension to the other half of the world
> Hides in another rope trick, reads book

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff410/tratan3/WhoIsThisEmariahStoneshaperYouSpeakOf3_zps4ulywnsi.png)

> Liches and death lords *gate* in
> "GEMARIAH STONESHAPER, YOU ARE WANTED FOR HIGH TREASON AND GRAND THEFT"
> "Who is this Gemariah Stoneshaper you speak of?" *becomes a beholder*
> Suppresses the rope trick with antimagic eye, shunting everybody out
> Teleports away
> Casts rope trick again, and grease, and obscuring mist.  Resumes reading.  As a beholder.
> Liches and death lords gate in *again*
> They slip on the grease
> Shunted out by antimagic again
> He casts a fireball into his own antimagic, which works because evocation
> The grease ignites
> They manage to terrify him with an aura
> "okay" *teleports away again*

He's still totally going to die but I love how much rage he's inducing in authorities.  The true measure of a character.
Oh he teleported to the base of a villain we made peace with.  Who's pissed as hell but maybe this will actually work.
(meanwhile the party is being tazed and interrogated by undead police.  Fortunately we have no idea what he did)
...
> villain washes his hands of the situation
> Gemariah casts stone to flesh on the villain's floor

So tempted to play an arcane spellcaster next

Edit:  He's in the ethereal realm with the antimagic beholder gaze.  They have ghost-touch weapons.  Their weapons are rapidly flickering between magic and suppressed, and can't hit him when they're in his gaze.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: AlleeCat on June 15, 2015, 01:46:23 am

What is the point of casting Stone to Flesh on a floor? Besides grossing people out and making people make weird squishing noises when they walk on it, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Eldin00 on June 15, 2015, 01:48:41 am

Depending on how much load the floor was holding, it could be very useful. Flesh has a lot less compressive strength than stone, and converting a large enough portion of a building's stone to flesh could seriously compromise the structural integrity of said building.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: chaoticag on June 15, 2015, 01:56:07 am

From the sounds of it, the wizard was being random at least to annoy the NPC. Though it might make the floor difficult terrain at the very least. Basically though, this is the gamemaster's headache.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2015, 02:04:05 am

Hard to say-- what is the nature of this villain? Perhaps turning his fortress into a quivering glob of pulsating flesh would have some effect other than just being a super dickish thing to do.

Say for instance, undead being opposed to life, forcing the necrocops to get derailed by the giant morbid ball of magically animated flesh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 02:26:03 am

Quote from: chaoticag on June 15, 2015, 01:56:07 am

From the sounds of it, the wizard was being random at least to annoy the NPC. Though it might make the floor difficult terrain at the very least. Basically though, this is the gamemaster's headache.

This, it didn't end up having any mechanic effect and I don't think he intended it to.  Just a "Fine throw me under the bus I'll transmute your room".

This lich lord has cast 2 gates and a power word kill so far.  The wizard's level 15 (CL 12).  He only survived the power word kill (no save or hitroll, die if <=100hp) by turning into a hydra.
I guess it is going on long, but I'm actually still enjoying it - aw it used Power Word Stun, another no-save no-hitroll effect, 2 rounds of stun.  Guess that's probably gg.

Three level 9 spells, IE the same level as wish.  It's like the worst genie ever.
aw DC 28 finger of death, save failed
Nevermind rolled exactly the DC 26 and survived, still stunned though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2015, 02:31:46 am

I now wonder what a DM would do, if presented with a player doing the following batshit stunt:

Stone to flesh on a stone floor, giant stone boulder, mountain side, etc--
Using an offensive spell on the animated flesh to "kill it".
Using animate dead to reanimate the dead flesh as a monsterous undead flesh golem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 02:39:05 am

Well, there was the time a boulder was being flung at our landboat and we decided to stop it in the silliest way
The wizard cast stone-to-flesh on it, and my cleric cast a very tall, thin wall of stone in its path to slice it in half.
It didn't work out for my cleric though, got knocked off the landboat into a bunch of furious treants and soul-claimed by dark forces due to a pact.

Oh the wizard got feebleminded, he's now an ethereal 1-int pyrohydra for the forseeable future.  Which is sorta like my elven bard who got reincarnated as a mindless tarrasque a few hours after being introduced.  God I love this game, really gotta wrap up the session soon though it's getting early.

"What does my character even do now?"  "Well you want to seek out temperate - no, warm marshes."  "I'm ethereal"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on June 15, 2015, 02:48:11 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 02:39:05 am

"What does my character even do now?"  "Well you want to seek out temperate - no, warm marshes."  "I'm ethereal"

"Well then you want to seek out ethereal warm marshes are you happy now?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2015, 02:58:02 am

Yes. You are drawn toward ethereal realms featuring warm marshy swamplands. The afterlives of several sentient swamp creature species are all nice attractive places you wish to visit.

Now, the amusing thing-- Combined with the earlier "Wear a headband of intelligence for 24 hours means "permanent" INT boost!", and some magical healing, his character might not be fully out of the game, assuming he can get a conspirator.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 03:00:39 am

Last post tonight

I missed a crucial part.  The lich cast feeblemind on Gemariah, an adjacent hydra.  Gemariah tore it *apart*.  THEN ascended to the surface to search for marshes.  The Greater Blink wore off, so he wandered over to the coast and melted a nest of raw glass.  An hour or so later he returned to his natural moon elf form...  Still unintelligent.  But victorious, and still holding the absurdly important holy handbook of transmutation and the philosopher's stone.

I think the death knights are just lost and sad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2015, 03:02:39 am

YES! Headband time!  He NEEDS a headband of intelligence. You said he was lv 10?  That's an int boost sufficient to make him not be a jibbering idiot, long enough for him to fix himself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 03:13:33 am

Oh wow thank you for that, he's actually wearing one (level 15, now 16).  Thanks to you, his familiar took the headband off and put it back on, we're assuming maybe it works like that.  It might not have been necessary but this makes the narrative most consistent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2015, 03:25:45 am

Exploiting rules is something I seem particularly good at.  I have wanted to play some purposefully "shit" sessions just to see how much greif I could cause, but I would only do that with a group's full complicit permission.

Sadly, I dont know anyone local who plays.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on June 15, 2015, 10:06:58 am

Session 2 (for me) of League of Evil "Gentlemen" was us arriving into town, recovering, and buying a wagon. The wagon salesman had some weird stuff, and we ended up going for an all-terrain amphibious bus kinda thing, complete with a Chest of Holding and another Chest with permanent Cold, kitchen, lots of walking room... one of us wanted to craft a gun for a whole day, so I decided to pass time by looking for the nearest "dojo" or whatever it's called in Faerun (BTW, we're Pathfinder characters that ended up in the D&D material plane) and challenging everyone on a 1-on-1 fight. It was a neat timewaster, about 5 combats with increasingly higher level opponents, each was probably done in 1 to 2 rounds, pretty one sided in my favor, then the level 20 master kicking my ass. The whole thing was over in like 5 minutes.

This had nothing to do with the plot, didn't advance anything, didn't get me xp or loot. Just something to do.

So, we started on the road, and fought 3 hill giants, who tipped over our ride, and got plenty of AoA's because reach (luckily I HAZ ACROBAT MONK). Killed them no problem.

Next session, we continued our journey. We ran over some kind of plant. We were supposed to fight it. But we were like "it's a freakin' plant, just drive over it). Then we ran into a pile of dirt. It seemed to move, but we weren't sure. So the wizard of course cast Slow on it. Now we definitely had no chance of telling if it moved or not. So again, we drove over it and kept on. Next, a hydra attacked us... so, yeah, before it could catch up to us, we ran for it in our magical bus. Eventually we made camp, and resumed the next day. There were 3 minotaurs in our way, didn't seem like they were going to let us go (apparently they had wizard levels? we didn't find out yet).

The fun part: as we slowed down ready to kick their heads in, we noticed that down the road from where we arrived, was a mob train of death: a hydra followed by a pile of dirt (Earth elemental, I think) followed by the nasty weed... so, by escaping all those "easier" fights now we have to fight all these creatures. So, time ran out and the session was over. Wonder what will happen next...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: AlleeCat on June 15, 2015, 12:36:33 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 03:13:33 am

Oh wow thank you for that, he's actually wearing one (level 15, now 16).  Thanks to you, his familiar took the headband off and put it back on, we're assuming maybe it works like that.  It might not have been necessary but this makes the narrative most consistent.

If he was still a hydra he could wear multiple headbands of intelligence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2015, 12:43:40 pm

With the one on, he might be able to muster enough brainpower to polymorph into one again. He would still need multiple headbands though. With an INT score almost completely derived from a buff given by an artifact, he might not be able to make the necessary skill rolls to craft additional bands prior to the polymorph attempt.

Personally, the ultimate goal should be to become intelligent enough via the buff to be able to read the book, and use the philosopher stone. (Assuming the DM follows that particular mythical object properly, part of its feature set is magical panacea-- it can cure any affliction or disease, meaning he could use it to cure his feeble mindedness.)


If nothing else, the familiar can off the guy itself, to save him, per the "True resurrection" properties of the stone.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/philosopher-s-stone

With the book, further stones can be crafted, so it's effectively a safe consumable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 01:36:32 pm

Quote from: AlleeCat on June 15, 2015, 12:36:33 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 03:13:33 am

Oh wow thank you for that, he's actually wearing one (level 15, now 16).  Thanks to you, his familiar took the headband off and put it back on, we're assuming maybe it works like that.  It might not have been necessary but this makes the narrative most consistent.

If he was still a hydra he could wear multiple headbands of intelligence.

Oh yeah!  I'm almost positive that gives him multiple head slots, and more hands would give him more ring slots. 

Sadly the enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack, but he could wear other hats.  And with the Mystic Item Compendium rules for customizing items, he could get a lot of neat enchanted hats.
I don't think we have the cash for it, but it is a fun image heh.

I don't know any way to get his int up to 10 even temporarily...  Which is a shame because then he could cast Limited Wish to cure himself with his new spell level.  A scroll of Heal is only 1,650 though, and our barbearian has decent UMD.  We're also in contact via items too.  We don't have a particularly speedy way to get to him, but we know his location and situation.

Heck, he's ironically right next to our two current quest targets.  So the quest giver might cast us a Greater Teleport again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 15, 2015, 01:40:43 pm

Don't basic rings of +2 INT stack?  EG, 2 such rings gives you +4 INT?

If you have 8 arms, that's a possible +16 INT. (if you have the cash.)

scratch that, I guess pathfinder does not have such items.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 01:48:18 pm

It would have to be an untyped bonus.  Then it would *probably* work...  Even untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack, but multiple identical rings are probably different sources.  I don't know of any untyped stat bonuses like that though, particularly as equipment enchantments.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 15, 2015, 02:21:52 pm

Actually unless Pathfinder dramatically alters magic item usage, no, being a hydra does not allow you to gain stacking benefits from headgear.  You've got two ring slots, one amulet/decorative item, one piece of headgear, one set of eyegear (glasses, lenses, whatever), one set of gloves/gauntlets, one set of footwear, one cloak/cape, one suit of armor, one robe, one vest/shirt, one set of bracers/bracelets and a belt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 15, 2015, 02:27:34 pm

That's for humanoid creatures...
I sincerely doubt that Pathfinder would actually disallow multiple effects from multiple magic items that you could feasibly wear at once without wearing one on top of the other or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 15, 2015, 02:48:33 pm

It's called game balance.  The limitations are there to prevent pretty much exactly what you guys are suggesting.  The way it works is that a hydra could wear enough headgear for each head, but only one effect could be active at a time.  Just like you as a humanoid can wear as many rings as you have fingers, but only two will be able to function simultaneously.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 15, 2015, 02:49:56 pm

Even so, the GM could possibly fudge it to be nice to the player, since he's just trying to... not be a mentally deficient hydra any more. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 15, 2015, 02:51:37 pm

Yes, a DM could do so if they chose to, and if the DM is feeling inclined to allow it, then they had better be prepared for the consequences of their decision, or have some divine intervention so they can one-off it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2015, 03:03:05 pm

Huh, according to some people it might be possible to to custom-enchant an item with a bonus type other than enhancement.  So a +6 sacred bonus to INT, maybe, instead of the typical +6 enhancement bonus.  That would stack with other enhancement bonuses (like from the headband of intelligence, or Fox's Cunning).

It's a neat thing to know, but I don't know if our DM would even allow it.  Besides, my character which actually had Craft Wondrous Item is...  Unavailable.

It's no problem though, a scroll of Heal will undo the Feeblemind and we just received a sizeable mission advance to spend.  No DM ex machina necessary this time.

The character with Craft Wondrous Item was my Ogre Mage who reincarnated as a female grey dwarf then accidentally teleported into a continent of negative energy trying to use a Greater Teleport scroll.  Let's just say she did come back as a wight like I thought...  But the experience has left her unsuitable for even our insane party.

It's fine though, I have a different backup character ready.  One who we thought was a NPC forever, but there's a logical reason for him to return (if my current character, the bone-stupid frenzied berserker who used to be a DMPC, dies).

Though playing an idiot is kinda fun in it's own way.  I'm cool with it, or moving back to a support caster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 15, 2015, 04:22:47 pm

The only example of a stacking same-type bonus I know of would be for ioun stones, which can give +2 bonuses up to a maximum of +6. It can only stack with itself though, so no mixing a strength stone with a strength belt.

E:
To be more specific, here is a list of stones that explicitly state that they are capable of stacking that I have found:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Emerald Ellipsoid, stacks a single to five temporary hit-points each, depending on type of stone, with no known limit.
Amber Spindle, stacks one point to either a single save or to all of your saves, depending on stone type, to a maximum of 5.
Crimson Sphere, stacks 2 to Int, max 6.
Onyx Rhomboid, stacks 2 to Con, max 6.

/E

Bonus calculating can be a pain. And I still haven't found out how animal equipment slots work. I've found one chart on a fansite, but it had no source listed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: AlleeCat on June 15, 2015, 05:31:28 pm

Have a pack full of Emerald Ellipsoids that is also made of Emerald Ellipsoids while wearing armor made of Emerald Ellipsoids and eating Emerald Ellipsoids for every meal.

DM: How much THP do you have again?
Player: What's 5 times 7233?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 15, 2015, 05:39:32 pm

You can put stones in special compasses called 'wayfinders' so they don't orbit you like stones normally do while active. Or if you are the daring type, they can be sewn directly into your flesh.

If they are put into a wayfinder, there is a 75% chance that a normal stone's 'resonant ability' will activate. Which for Emeralds is another +5 hitpoints, regardless of whether it is a normal, cracked, or flawed stone. Though flawed and cracked stones only have a 25% chance of resonating.

Reading a bit more, it seems that flawed only stack to 25, while cracked only go to 5. Flawed ones give you negative levels though, so I wouldn't use them. I wouldn't so much as touch many of the flawed stones, to be honest. Some cracked ones are good though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 20, 2015, 08:09:43 pm

Bumping to ask how y'all feel about underwater combat. I'm not a fan of it, but it is something that I will have to learn to deal with.

In pathfinder, piercing attacks can be used normally, but slashing takes a -2 to hit and damage and bludgeoning is outright halved. Movement is also an annoying factor.

At least the books give us tons of potions of water breathing. I invested in an amulet of adaption instead, however.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on June 20, 2015, 09:08:04 pm

There's ways to counter that combat stuff underwater. Mostly magic that lets you move about normally. But underwater combat is different combat than above water, absolutely. I once had to fight a city of ghouls underwater as a crusader using a falchion (3.5e). That was a blast.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 21, 2015, 12:23:33 am

Underwater combat:

1) Is water breathing involved, or do we have pearl divers trying to fight and then run up to the surface for air every 4 rounds?

2) Heavy armor will down them. No. It will drown them unless they are water breathing. If they ARE water breathing, then they will hit the bottom and stay there until they either walk all the way to shore, or somebody hauls them up on a really big rope and pulley. There is NO swimming in heavy armor.

3) Big weapons wont work. Especially blunt type weapons, which rely on bruising and crushing. This is things like axes, claymores, clubs, etc. Only weapons that would work as expected would be things like a boot knife, and then only as the cutting damage its capable of. Bonus points if you "work in" special underwater weaponry, like a spring loaded harpoon, or a thrown torpedo knife. (basically, imagine this pool toy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgDxwlpS864), with a sharp pokey bit on the front. Say some kind of poison injection needle so you can get poison damage on successful hit.)

4) BEST weapons underwater are going to be magical burden items coupled with dispel magic (to terminate waterbreathing) and or, rope coupled with the same.  Tie them up or otherwise hyper-encumber them, then dispel magic. BOOM. suffocation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on June 21, 2015, 12:38:05 am

But what if the things they are fighting either breath water innately (say, some sort of merperson) or don't breath at all?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 21, 2015, 01:16:14 am

Then I guess it's just the usual murderhobo routine.

No-one in the party uses heavy armour, thankfully. Though I can't swim for shit, and you are greatly slowed when compared to moving on land, so no-one on our side was able to attack in the first round. But we all have potions of water breathing to spare still, so that is not a problem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 21, 2015, 01:46:08 am

Pathfinder is definitely a lot kinder to under water battles when you don't have some way to breathe instantly than 3.5 is.

Still... I think water is a cool avenue for adventurers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on June 21, 2015, 06:30:41 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 15, 2015, 02:49:56 pm

Even so, the GM could possibly fudge it to be nice to the player, since he's just trying to... not be a mentally deficient hydra any more. :P

Tangentially relevant,. (http://drawception.com/viewgame/kfhryjTpq8/get-up-on-the-hydras-back/)   

Also, I miss PnP gaming. :(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 21, 2015, 09:23:41 am

Quote from: Neonivek on June 21, 2015, 01:46:08 am

Pathfinder is definitely a lot kinder to under water battles when you don't have some way to breathe instantly than 3.5 is.

Still... I think water is a cool avenue for adventurers.

3.5 is already pretty generous.  Actually, looks like the rules for drowning are identical:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Drowning
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning

Basically you can fight for a number of rounds equal to your constitution *score* (not mod).  Then you start making a fort save that grows from 10.  If you take only 1 move action, you use half the air that round.
(I'm only sharing this because it's kinda funny.  Even untrained, adventurers are *amazing* at holding their breath and remaining calm underwater)

As for swimming in heavy armor...  Technically it's just a penalty to the swim check from what I can find.  But it's *double* the normal armor check and encumbrance penalty.  You're trying to hit 10 to move in calm water, 30 if you want to move at normal speed instead of quarter.  6-9 you don't move, 5 or less you fall underwater.

So in full plate with a heavy shield and a medium load, you're looking at (6+2)*2+(3*2)=18 penalty.  DC 24 to tread water, DC 28 to move.
Pretty tough!  Keeping a light load helps a lot though, as would stowing the shield (stowing the armor would help a lot more, of course).  With about a dozen ranks a warrior could probably swim across a lake in the full kit.  They might hit the bottom first though, but they have plenty of air.

But yeah, if they have waterbreathing then they're better off trudging along the bottom.  I'm not sure what the rule is for that but I assume it's half-speed, or maybe full (though that would be silly).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 21, 2015, 01:34:36 pm

My guess would be two stacks of difficult terrain (water resistance and the muddy bottom of the lake) so quarter speed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulufaic on June 21, 2015, 01:42:52 pm

Quote from: kilakan on June 21, 2015, 01:34:36 pm

My guess would be two stacks of difficult terrain (water resistance and the muddy bottom of the lake) so quarter speed.

That makes sense.  But if it was at the bottom of a canal or other man-made waterway it would just be half, or maybe I don't know shit about canals and they also have mud on the bottom.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 21, 2015, 03:30:39 pm

Depends on the type of canal :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 21, 2015, 06:22:49 pm

yeah and some faster moving rivers/mountain waterways+lakes would be stone or sand bottom so probably a lot easier to traverse... the bottom of the ocean now mind you, in most places you'd probably sink a good 15 feet into silt and water breathing or not you'd suffocate in mud.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on June 21, 2015, 07:30:52 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 15, 2015, 02:21:52 pm

Actually unless Pathfinder dramatically alters magic item usage, no, being a hydra does not allow you to gain stacking benefits from headgear.  You've got two ring slots, one amulet/decorative item, one piece of headgear, one set of eyegear (glasses, lenses, whatever), one set of gloves/gauntlets, one set of footwear, one cloak/cape, one suit of armor, one robe, one vest/shirt, one set of bracers/bracelets and a belt.

In D&D I think you can take a feat to increase the number of item slots

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 21, 2015, 07:59:59 pm

Even if it did remember that Pathfinder is very much in the position of "If they used armor, they would be neigh unstoppable" so to speak.

I still remember when a player said he wanted to enhance a Adamantium Golem with a shield... and I was like "No, the golem is already perfect, the shield wouldn't benefit it"

Yet there was no "rule" on it... I maintained it due to the concept of a Adamantine Golem.

The way I like to handle a lot of it is that well... Natural armor lowers the armor bonus of armors by 1 for every 2 natural armor they have.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 21, 2015, 10:59:38 pm

No, there would still be advantages to having the adamantium golem possess a shield.  Specifically, it would permit it to deflect attacks that would alter its temperature. Otherwise, thermal expansion stresses could theoretically weaken the golem through microfractures in its matrix.

EG, glass cannon wizard duo 1-2 punches the golem repeatedly with cone of cold and fireball. That of course, assumes the DM is going to allow "physics related effects" for mythical substances, like adamantium.

It's also a potentially enchantable item, permiting the golem to possibly have additional magic resistance buff added to its innate physical resistance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 22, 2015, 01:18:21 am

Quote from: wierd on June 21, 2015, 10:59:38 pm

No, there would still be advantages to having the adamantium golem possess a shield.  Specifically, it would permit it to deflect attacks that would alter its temperature. Otherwise, thermal expansion stresses could theoretically weaken the golem through microfractures in its matrix.

EG, glass cannon wizard duo 1-2 punches the golem repeatedly with cone of cold and fireball. That of course, assumes the DM is going to allow "physics related effects" for mythical substances, like adamantium.

It's also a potentially enchantable item, permiting the golem to possibly have additional magic resistance buff added to its innate physical resistance.

It is already made of a neigh indestructible material. Anything that would cause the golem to suffer thermally is pretty much nuclear bomb!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on June 22, 2015, 01:27:01 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Neonivek on June 22, 2015, 01:18:21 am

Quote from: wierd on June 21, 2015, 10:59:38 pm

No, there would still be advantages to having the adamantium golem possess a shield.  Specifically, it would permit it to deflect attacks that would alter its temperature. Otherwise, thermal expansion stresses could theoretically weaken the golem through microfractures in its matrix.

EG, glass cannon wizard duo 1-2 punches the golem repeatedly with cone of cold and fireball. That of course, assumes the DM is going to allow "physics related effects" for mythical substances, like adamantium.

It's also a potentially enchantable item, permiting the golem to possibly have additional magic resistance buff added to its innate physical resistance.

It is already made of a neigh indestructible material. Anything that would cause the golem to suffer thermally is pretty much nuclear bomb!

(http://i.imgur.com/y14ytDM.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on June 22, 2015, 02:33:28 am

Wait, can those 'cool metal' and 'heat metal' spells work on adamantium?
Plus, if you make an adamantium golem, what do you use to smelt the form? A directed nuke in order to melt it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 22, 2015, 02:38:55 am

Quote from: Execute/Dumbo.exe on June 22, 2015, 02:33:28 am

Wait, can those 'cool metal' and 'heat metal' spells work on adamantium?
Plus, if you make an adamantium golem, what do you use to smelt the form? A directed nuke in order to melt it?

You will never get them to do enough damage to affect Adamantine.

A Adamantine Golem actually "is" indestructible. All you can hope to achieve is to disrupt the magics allowing it to move for a few moments.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 22, 2015, 03:05:39 am

Misunderstanding what I am getting at.

Uneven heating of "very hard" materials causes one part of the material to expand according to its coefficient of thermal expansion, while the other contracts likewise. This causes internal stresses in the material, which causees it to crack. You are using heat and cold to leverage the "indomitable nature" of the adamantine itself, to destroy the adamantine golem.

Adamantine is hard. VERY VERY hard. That's where it's neigh indistructibility comes from. Hit it with anything, it bounces off and does not even leave a scratch, let alone a ding.

That's also why it would be very susceptible to thermal fracture. :D

Other, less than orthodox means of defeating the golem:

1) Conjure a gelatinous cube, order it to engulf the golem, then cast Stone on the cube. (This basically embeds the golem in a giant granite block.) This needs to be done in rapid succession before the golem has time to have a turn.

2) If interpreting adamantine faithfully to literature, (hah.) then creative use of Stone to Flesh would turn it into a flesh golem. (The real world legends behind adamantine come from Adamant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamant), a gemstone.) It would then be MUCH easier to kill. (It would also make for hilarious means of disarming foes weilding adamantine weapons.)



Getting around the thermal expansion/contraction problem by saying something like "Look it has an absurdly high specific heat, OK?" means that wearing adamantine armor is like wearing an asbestos suit, only better.  Hit with absurd cold? It stays room temperature to the touch, and anyone inside is fully protected from the cold. Likewise with heat. It also means that if you find adamantine gear on a trip through an elemental plane, and it has been there awhile, it will have become "room temperature" for that plane.  So, elemental fire world? You have a permanent cherry red adamantine weapon. Will stay hot for a VERY VERY long time.  (basically forever).  Likewise with cold from an ice realm.  I doubt you want to have to make such concessions

Using straigh tup handwaving to ignore the challenge is being a bad DM in my book. Especially when the degree of fracture can be easily computed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 22, 2015, 03:29:36 am

It wouldn't work. At most you are just encasing the Golem in a stone cube.

As well a gelatinous cube has no flesh.

Finally Adamantine golem is outright indestructible and it is immune to Stone to flesh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 22, 2015, 03:35:08 am

Then how did the golem get made out of it, and how do smiths work with it?  It CANT be completely invulnerable.

Again, thermal expansion causes the material to work against itself. The harder (less ductile) the material, the more prone to thermal stress fracture it is. Depending on what the coefficient of expansion is, just rapidly clenching a super heated golem in some water would shatter it into little shards.

Pathfinder only gives a value for its hardness, which can be compared against other metals. Unless you want to be the "super dick" DM, and just put your foot down, a reasonable spread specturm of possible thermal coefficients could be derived by exploring lesser metals and their hardnesses, to get a rough estimation of adamantine's thermal coefficient.  Then you know how hot/cold you need to make the extremes to cause damage that way. (Either hot or cold alone would not damage the golem, it is the rapid transition from one to the other that causes the damage.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 22, 2015, 03:46:30 am

Quote

Then how did the golem get made out of it, and how do smiths work with it?

In 3.5 it is just flat out impossible to forge an adamantine golem. They are usually created with metal which is then transformed into adamantine. Part of this is because Adamantine cannot exactly be forged and the other is that there isn't enough adamantine in the world for it.

In Pathfinder they flat out do not explain this. Only that it is impossible to find enough adamantine to build one unless you scour the planes.

Then again they explain that Adamantine is only extremely hard in Pathfinder (not indestructible) and that the Adamantine Golem is outright indestructible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 22, 2015, 03:52:54 am

In other words, "handwavium +2"

The kind of thing that makes players mad, because there is no recourse at all, because there is no recourse at all. Physics, logic, deductive reasoning, and anything else that would indicate the contrary be damned.

That's no fun for the same reason that god mode sue is not fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on June 22, 2015, 03:59:06 am

If I was DMing I'd say "Sure, that makes sense."

Then I'd have it so the Wizard who made the Golem magicked away that weakness, since who would be stupid enough to leave such a gaping weakness on such a valuable minion?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 22, 2015, 03:59:58 am

It would be if most cases of Adamantine (outside weapons and armor) are usually well... quite a feat.

An Adamantine Golem in 3.5 for example was an "Epic monster" which basically amounts to that golem being able to fight toe to toe with demigods and even a god cannot just scoff at one.

No player is going to find a large chunk of Adamantine... and if there is a door of Adamantine, suffice it to say you are not going to open it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on June 22, 2015, 04:01:51 am

...Well the thing is, Adamantine golems have natural magic immunity. Y'all are gonna have to straight up conjure those extremes, any magical heat or cold won't work.

So sure, rapidly transporting it between the elemental plane of fire and the quasi-elemental plane of ice will work, but heat metal and chill metal won't work, seeing as spell resistance applies to those.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on June 22, 2015, 05:38:29 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on June 22, 2015, 04:01:51 am

...Well the thing is, Adamantine golems have natural magic immunity. Y'all are gonna have to straight up conjure those extremes, any magical heat or cold won't work.

So sure, rapidly transporting it between the elemental plane of fire and the quasi-elemental plane of ice will work, but heat metal and chill metal won't work, seeing as spell resistance applies to those.

Quote from: Pufferfish on June 22, 2015, 04:01:51 am

...Well the thing is, Adamantine golems have natural magic immunity. Y'all are gonna have to straight up conjure those extremes, any magical heat or cold won't work.

So sure, rapidly transporting it between the elemental plane of fire and the quasi-elemental plane of ice will work, but heat metal and chill metal won't work, seeing as spell resistance applies to those.

Well, what does an admantine golem look like? Does it look human, just a bit clunkier and made out of a nigh indestructible material? How strong is it? Can it cast magic itself? Could you even enchant an adamantine golem even with a good effect spell (like giving immunity to heat and cold)? Does the flaming grass from a fireball spell still count as indestructible? Could something like grasping hand still grapple it? What about burying it? Could that work? I mean, gods could bury it under miles upon miles of crust and mantle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 22, 2015, 08:49:00 am

I mean... here's the page for the pathfinder adamantine golem http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-adamantine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-adamantine)

Under it's indestructibility ability it lists three specific ways of killing it :An adamantine golem is nearly impossible to destroy. Even if reduced below 0 hit points, its fast healing continues to restore hit points, though the golem is helpless unless above 0 hit points. It can only be permanently destroyed if reduced to negative hit points and then decapitated using an adamantine vorpal weapon—alternatively, miracle or wish can be used to slay it while it is at negative hit points.

Due to the fast healing I'd also say that 'stress fractures' would seal shut as fast as they appear.  Also consider that in pathfinder at least it needs to be made by a 20th level caster...

However I doubt that an adamantine golem would be capable of fighting a god considering one of the three ways it can die is via Miracle, aka divine intervention.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on June 22, 2015, 09:26:26 am

However, the Tarrasque in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/spawn-of-destruction/tarrasque) might put up a good fight, since it lacks the 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) ability to be killed with a Wish or Miracle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Wolf Tengu on June 25, 2015, 02:30:15 pm

Depends if your DM is lenient enough to let you Soul Jar into one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2015, 06:27:10 pm

Level zero adventures, anyone tried or heard of them? I find the idea stupid, even if it's something like "play an npc class for a few levels before you become an adventurer proper".

Someone I know had the brilliant idea of creating an actual level zero. No skills, proficiencies of any kind, or even anything remotely resembling a feature. They would only get 1d6 health, and had to roll it. No automax at first level as usual.

Ridiculous. No one would survive the first encounter, since no one would have any armour and would have to take a -4 on every attack due to lacking proficiency.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 25, 2015, 06:29:27 pm

Clearly the adventure would be going through everyday life.

"You are filing the paperwork when suddenly you GOT A PAPER CUT!!! Roll fortitude or take 1 point of damage"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2015, 06:33:53 pm

Nah, it was described as "like Attack on Titan, but all the titans are also undead".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 25, 2015, 06:35:34 pm

Sounds like playing a group of humans in Vampire the Masquerade.
A friend of mine actually did that as a one-off, and apparently it was... okay.  Much more talking and evading than fighting of course, so probably more fun under VtM than DND.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on June 25, 2015, 06:52:44 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2015, 06:27:10 pm

Level zero adventures, anyone tried or heard of them? I find the idea stupid, even if it's something like "play an npc class for a few levels before you become an adventurer proper".

Someone I know had the brilliant idea of creating an actual level zero. No skills, proficiencies of any kind, or even anything remotely resembling a feature. They would only get 1d6 health, and had to roll it. No automax at first level as usual.

Ridiculous. No one would survive the first encounter, since no one would have any armour and would have to take a -4 on every attack due to lacking proficiency.

I've heard that the standard character creation process of Dungeon Crawl Classics involves rolling up 3 level 0 characters, and any that survive can be used to make your level 1 character.

But that's based on early D&D sensibilities, where level 1 wizards only get d4 health, randomly rolled, and I'm not even sure if they got a constitution bonus in some of those versions (OSRIC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSRIC) shows you only get at least a +1 if it's over 15). That may seem crazy to players of modern D&D, but the idea behind early D&D was that you were trying to get treasure and gtfo, since you got more XP from treasure than killing monsters, so you only got into fights if you fucked up. At early levels, any hit points were just a chance to avoid death if you happened to get hit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2015, 07:19:38 pm

Though there were usually some beefier characters to stand between the monster and the wizard to ensure gibbing doesn't ensue. Plus wizards can still pop off at least a few helpful, though not particularly powerful, spells at early levels.

Again, we would start with nothing if we agreed to this game. 1d6 health, no saves or BAB, no proficiencies with any armour or weapons, and no features at all. That's a -4 on all attacks, assuming we don't just go unarmed. If we do go unarmed, we also provoke attacks of opportunity for not having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. We don't have armour, which hurts too, since wearing armour you are not proficient with also inhibits you.

And some of the beginning fights would have us squaring off against actual groups of zombies, solo, since it would be a normally day then all of a sudden it's a zombie apocalypse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 25, 2015, 07:45:16 pm

That sounds poorly thought out, unbalanced as hell, and unpleasantly like an excuse to get off on being a dick to the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on June 25, 2015, 07:51:36 pm

Sounds like typical original D&D. Want to kill a zombie? It's dumb and predictable, so figure out ways to distract it and throw stuff from a rooftop, etc. Want to kill a pack of zombies? Better get really creative. If you want to go toe to toe with a zombie, you're dumber than it is and far more of a disappointment to your famiry. Even if you're level 3 or 4 - why not climb up on a roof, pull up the rope, and throw debris on it until it's dead?

The game definitely does work and it is definitely fun. But there is an edge to it because your character doesn't have plot immunity and characters sometimes die horribly. But because there's risk, it's fun. I've played in games where there's no risk. I don't play in games like that anymore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 25, 2015, 08:18:56 pm

I'm just going to throw a comparison out here on this subject:

1st level RIFTS character:  Fully realized outfitted and capable character, starts capable and becomes insanely powerful.  Smoothly countered by the entire setting being insanely OP.

1st level D&D character:  Just capable enough to actually accomplish something, takes a long time to become powerful, and even longer to become extremely powerful.  Countered by balanced progression system.

0th level D&D character: Completely useless meatbag with no capacities whatsoever other than base statistics, has a nearly non-existent chance of ever actually becoming useful due to being dead out of the gate.  A non-leveled Orc can kill an unlimited number of these guys.

Now, I'm going to throw this caveat out there as well, the 0th level characters are severely restrained by their stats, far more so than any other character, if they lack the intelligence to come up with a good plan, they are dead, unless the DM gives no fucks about actual role-playing and lets them do anything the player can imagine regardless of lack of character knowledge or imagination.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2015, 08:28:12 pm

It would be run by the problem player. He may have left the current campaign, but he hasn't left the group.

I know that he wants everyone's characters to make sense in his custom world, so he limited a lot of shit. He came up a story for one player already, and their first encounter would be in a mine. They would be a miner, cornered in a dead end. He's not giving us a choice to avoid the zombies or flee. And he's shit at encounters. Either he will make it dead easy or it will be a TPK because he never reads up on monsters before starting a fight with them. See: half-dozen ropers versus a level seven party.

Plus, as everything has to make sense for his town, we have to follow his rules. He apparently chronicled or is planning to chronicle every single residents' lives. This means we must make sense, so no non-core races. Also, there are few dwarves, and they haven't had kids, so no playing a dwarf. Same goes for elves; they haven't got big families, so no elves or half-elves. Or orcs or half-orcs. There are no halflings in town either. There is exactly one gnome. No-one likes him, so you can't be a gnome either. So basically we are only allowed to be human.

And no non-core classes, barring few exceptions. No monks though, since martial arts don't exist in this world. Or hybrid/alternate/prestige classes. No druids. They don't exist in town, as there is no floral areas for them to exist in. No witches, as he can't wrap his head around what a patron even is. No alchemists, because he hates the entire class with a passion; especially since they get extracts that can act as spells, and he thinks that potions acting as spells is stupid. Though we are still allowed to take the brew potion feat, which can be used to make potions that function similarly to spells. No swashbucklers, as he hates one optional ability they have, and therefore the entire class must be banned. No familiars or animal companions, since those apparently should never have been added to the game, though leadership is still fine on the condition that he is the only one allowed to have it. There's even more banned stuff, but I can't remember them at the moment.

And his DMPC is probably going to come out from under a rock and go "haha, I have secretly been God all along! Bow to me!" again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 25, 2015, 08:31:00 pm

I reiterate my post above Leo's, this is bad gaming.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on June 25, 2015, 08:33:19 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2015, 08:28:12 pm

*Snip*

I must say, I'm sort of morbidly interested in that game now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on June 25, 2015, 10:04:57 pm

Since I have school holidays in about two hours, I've been considering starting up either a DnD 5E campaign or possibly even trying to work out some of the World of Darkness stuff/Dark Heresy and doing that as a play-by-post here on B12. Would anyone here be interested in one of those, or have suggestions for the setting of a 5E campaign? (I've personally got a few ideas already, but input is welcome.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on June 26, 2015, 12:54:36 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 25, 2015, 08:18:56 pm

Now, I'm going to throw this caveat out there as well, the 0th level characters are severely restrained by their stats, far more so than any other character, if they lack the intelligence to come up with a good plan, they are dead, unless the DM gives no fucks about actual role-playing and lets them do anything the player can imagine regardless of lack of character knowledge or imagination.

Yeah, early D&D is very different from modern D&D, in that they emphasize the game part a lot more than the roleplaying. It originally evolved from wargames, but it departed them in using means other than combat to resolve problems. The story of Braunstein (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/) probably best illustrates this.

So, yeah, it was less about playing your character and more you as a player trying to figure out a way to beat the challenge. I'm not actually sure that stats were even supposed to do much in Original D&D other than defining what classes or races you qualified for.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2015, 08:28:12 pm

-snip-

The idea of playing level 0 characters has merit, if done right, but this is just wrong. So very wrong.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 26, 2015, 01:12:59 am

I never played 'base' D&D, just first ed AD&D, and AD&D definitely emphasized stats heavily (since skills etc. barely even existed.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 26, 2015, 04:26:18 am

From the sounds of it, level 0 characters are basically teenagers or children; They have no training, and no skill in any discipline, and as such have no real knowledge of those disciplines.

With that in mind, I can think of some reasonable scenarios where level 0 parties could be created, and begin encountering monsters. The only starting equipment would be the clothes on their backs. (and those are just +0 ac type clothes.)

Perhaps I should just make campaigns for people to try out?  Since I dont have any vested interest in the actual play, (other than for people to have fun), it might be worth while. (EG, I dont really have any inclination to make the whizzard's magical realm.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 26, 2015, 05:46:56 am

Iirc, I. DnD terms, anyone without adventurer experience is a level 0 character. Even if they've been a butcher, a smith, s priest or a minstrel for 20 years. No adventuring experience, no deal.

I believe 1st edition had negative or 0 levels for certain classes, though. A Cavalier, for example, could start as a -2 to 1 level character depending on how they rolled. The negative levels represented a squire or person who had not yet finished their knightly training, or somebody who was of too lowly status to become a proper (noble-blooded) knight.

Cavaliers also had a mechanic that let them slowly raise all their physical attributes to 18 as they leveled up. They were slightly unbalanced. Well, I guess they were balanced by the fact that they were supposed to follow their knightly code bullshit to the letter, which meant that it was impossible for them to survive any amount long of time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 27, 2015, 09:59:16 pm

I just tried my first point-buy game. Had been generously given 25 points, though I'm still not very fond of the system. I know that characters can't all be ass-kicking masters of all trades, but I guess I'm too used to having well-rounded stats, or just haven't played point-buy enough to get used to it. Still, I'm not MAD or anything, so I have no reason to be annoyed with having a few weaknesses. I'm playing a fighter, using the archer archetype. Only really need dex and strength.

I'm doing alright, so far. Just hit level five. Wish I had a few more skill points to throw around though. Any recommendations on combat maneuvers? This archetype allows me to use some maneuvers on enemies up to thirty feet away, though at a -4 penalty. I am a Strix, and thus can fly, so mobility and being threatened isn't as much of an issue.

If I have feats to spare later on I may get a few of the new flier feats introduced in the Inner Sea Monster Codex. Fliers get a few new tricks in there. Edit: Can't seem to find them on the usual fansites I frequent. Might have just not been added yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 28, 2015, 08:19:13 am

Is this dnd 3.5/4/5 or pathfinder?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 28, 2015, 09:10:11 am

So in my game... I kind of... exaggerated the amount of corpses a murderer was having...

To the point where... yeah he was basically depopulating the city.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on June 28, 2015, 09:37:59 am

Some murderers do that level of killing. They tend to be political in nature, but some do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on June 28, 2015, 09:45:01 am

It was several hundred people( that we could see, possibly more). Depending on the size of the city, that is a sizeable chunck of the population.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 28, 2015, 09:45:45 am

It was to the point that a couple dozen more was acceptable collateral damage :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on June 28, 2015, 09:49:16 am

a dozen more, at most (fox lady+guards?)

Which is great, because the 'heroes' would have been hunted criminals otherwise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 28, 2015, 12:17:54 pm

Quote from: kilakan on June 28, 2015, 08:19:13 am

Is this dnd 3.5/4/5 or pathfinder?

Ah, should have clarified. It's Pathfinder.

So far the party consists of me, the strix archer fighter, a human cleric/fighter who wields a great-axe, a human warpriest, who is also an archer, and a half-elf alchemist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 28, 2015, 01:36:04 pm

Since it's pathfinder I would strongly reccomend making a ranger instead of an archer fighter then.  You get more skill points, better feats (because you can skip pre-reqs with some of the ranger talents) and just in general will be more of your 'strong, good all around' type of dude.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 28, 2015, 01:43:16 pm

And because we can see how my Strix ranger and your Strix ranger turn out. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 28, 2015, 01:45:17 pm

I'm not too miffed about having fewer skill points, though I definitely prefer having a good intelligence or playing a class with a few more points per level. I've got 12 int, so I get three points. I may ask the DM if we can use the background/adventuring skill rules introduced in Unchained. That would give two more points for 'background' skills for everyone.

But I'm enjoying my archer archetype fighter so far. It's funny to be able to disarm a dude from 30 feet away.

If anyone cares, here's a rough plan for how I am planning to slot my feats:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1 Point Blank, Precise Shot
2 Rapid Shot
3 Deadly Aim
4 Weapon Focus
5 Weapon Spec
6 Manyshot
7 Snap Shot
8 Greater Weapon Focus
9 Combat Expertise
10 Improved Snap Shot
11 Improved Maneuver (Not sure what maneuver to focus on yet)
12 Greater Weapon Spec
13 Greater Snap Shot
14 Greater Maneuver
15 Skill Focus Fly
16 Graceful Flier (New, haven't seen it online yet. Improves flight maneuverability by 1 step and adds5 feet to flight speed.)
17 Wingover (Allows 180 degree turns without sacrificing movement or having to make a check. May not be necessary as a strix.)
18 ?
19 ?
20 ?

I'll be pumping dex before anything else, I know that much. I also know that I will want a pair of bracers of archery, and maybe some duelist gloves to increase the effects of my weapon training.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 28, 2015, 03:39:00 pm

You'll want high strength and a composite longbow.  Otherwise you'll be doing substantially less damage that you could be.  Honestly you want strength more than dex even.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 28, 2015, 03:52:02 pm

My strength is 16, dex is 18. I do have a composite bow, with the adaptive enchantment so that I do not have to readjust it when my strength changes. It's where the most of my starting gold went, with the rest going into my armour and two of the cheaper ioun stones. +1 Initiative for only 500 gold with a cracked dusty rose, plus another 800 gold for a +2 to the skill of my choice, changeable once daily with a cracked magenta prism.

I'm a bit more concerned with being able to consistently land hits, though between weapon training, weapon focus, other feats, and various magic items and such, I can definitely see your point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on June 28, 2015, 04:22:55 pm

What you'll want to do for getting hits consistently is buy alchemical items that can pin targets, have a party member trip people, and otherwise incapacitate them so that their dex bonus goes down.  At that point their AC is low enough, and your attacks per round should be high enough that the majority will land.

You can either go sniper archer, or fill the skies with arrows archer.  The later has a lot higher damage threshold but hits a lot less, and seems to be what you are going.  Ideally you'll want to be flying only 20/30 feet above the target to get point blank in there and then just fire away constantly.

Moving will be something you'll do fairly rarely as you will want to be doing full attack rounds each turn with many shot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 28, 2015, 09:51:02 pm

Quote from: kilakan on June 28, 2015, 01:36:04 pm

Since it's pathfinder I would strongly reccomend making a ranger instead of an archer fighter then.  You get more skill points, better feats (because you can skip pre-reqs with some of the ranger talents) and just in general will be more of your 'strong, good all around' type of dude.

I actually think the exact opposite. Fighters shame Rangers at the ranged game.

Add in that a few of the archtypes for fighters are almighty archers...

But then again Fighters are dedicated combatants and rangers are quasi-classes along side the like of the Bard and Paladin.

A Ranger isn't going to outfight a fighter nor outmagic the druid. Yet the point of them is that they are somewhere in between.

MAYBE a ranger could get more feats... maybe... but a fighter also benefits from the fighter feats. Which vastly overpower the Ranger's poultry selection.

Mind you I am just comparing the fighters training bonuses, armor bonuses, and fighter feats... add in that bows and crossbows are starved for damage...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 28, 2015, 10:48:42 pm

With an adaptive-enchanted composite bow, the bow will scale to give additional damage based on your strength bonus. Though bows are still lighter in terms of output when you factor in that you can't get 1.5x damage like you can by wielding a melee weapon two-handed. That damage bonus also applies on power attacks, to my knowledge, which would push melee up a bit further.

Though regardless of builds, I think that in general a ranger could out-damage a fighter, when facing their favoured enemies. An animal companion can help increase the ranger's damage output as well, but they are not as strong as the companions of other classes. Though fighters do get more feats than rangers, whose feats apparently include poultry and poultry accessories. I've taken a look at the archery combat style selection, and I don't think I care for it too much.

Though I don't think a paladin would be a 'quasi-class'. While they can definitely be played as a full-supporter, and can fill a few different roles, they can still hold their own on the frontlines, with their high saves, full bab, and a fair amount of proficiencies. Plus a horse can be a beast. Admittedly, similar to rangers, paladins tend to be most effective against certain types of enemies. Some of their archetypes aren't that great, either. There are a few that replace or nerf their smite.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 28, 2015, 11:12:16 pm

Quasi doesn't mean "bad" but yes by far the Paladin is the one who has the least trade off for casting ability when it comes to just raw physical might compared to all others.

But I definitely wouldn't remove them from that classification. They are a mix between Divine Casting and raw combat.

The only argument someone COULD make is that Druids are a quasi class of a hypothetical pure caster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on June 29, 2015, 01:36:00 am

Er. I don't think there's an argument on whether or not a druid is a "quasiclass". It's its own tree of magic, with many spells being unique to it. It's not like the druid is to the cleric as the sorcerer is to the wizard; they've been a staple since (at least) AD&D. It handles the natural world's magics, rather than the Cleric's domain-based magics, or the wizard's arcane magics. It's a triangle bro, and everyone knows triangles are the most stable shape.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on June 29, 2015, 08:38:50 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on June 29, 2015, 01:36:00 am

Er. I don't think there's an argument on whether or not a druid is a "quasiclass". It's its own tree of magic, with many spells being unique to it. It's not like the druid is to the cleric as the sorcerer is to the wizard; they've been a staple since (at least) AD&D.

Yes, but in AD&D they were explicitly a cleric variant

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on June 29, 2015, 06:53:44 pm

and bard was a multiclass monstrosity :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on June 29, 2015, 11:02:03 pm

Well, our party just fought 4 minotaurs, a 9-headed pyrohydra, some sort of earth elemental and a big mobile plant that liked to hug people.

We as well as the DM figured out a few things.

1) Hydras are freakin' dangerous as they have LOTS of attacks (9 for this one). DM had to "nerf" it by rolling a random dice to see how many hydra heads decided to attack, otherwise it would probably kill one adventurer each round.

2) Icy prison is an awesome spell to cast at the remaining last (intelligent) enemy since there's nobody left to save him before he dies. Minotaur popsicle FTW.

3) Succeeding with a 20 attack roll at a hydra, which then rolls a natural 1 to resist my Stunning Fist attempt is awesome, specially when everyone then gets to gang on it for massive alpha-strike damage.

4) Enlarged Monk with reach is pretty nice too. Also... Stunning Fist AoO is confusing, haha.

5) Next time, everyone kill the hydra first.

6) No grappling the Minotaur, srsly. Reserve grappling for humans with two-handers and no natural attacks. Also it ruins Flurry of Blows, which Blows.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on June 29, 2015, 11:06:20 pm

HAHA Pyrohydras are even worse, since they're immune to fire damage and thus can only be successfully stopped by acid in the "hydra" way. Otherwise stupidly massive body damage is what it takes. Btw, that's how our group did it for... three separate hydras?

Oh, and we fought a twelve-headed thessa hydra (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/thesmons.php). It ate my favorite character :(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 29, 2015, 11:40:46 pm

Pff that's nothing!  Last session we used a hydra as an improved weapon :P
But seriously, that sounds like a cool fight - congrats on that clutch stun!

Technically we really did use a hydra - our transmutation wizard - as an improvised weapon.  We had a party fight (very cheerfully.  I wanted a new character, other player would take the winning character).  The wizard got bored and volunteered himself as ammo.  We had obscenely high strength scores, plenty to pick up a 2,000 pound "object" and throw it for 13d6+str.

My frenzied berserker probably should have had the fight, with his deathless rage and "wrathful heal" weapon enchantment (receive half of all damage done as healing, completely insane), but the raging barbarian pulled out a magic carpet and an eversmoking bottle and flew around to outlast the frenzy.  He did use a climb check and "corner perch" first though, which was pretty cool to visualize.

I think he really bends the rules of rage actions, but it's all good!  I'm glad he won, my character (a former NPC turned emergency backup character) had 5 int was kinda one dimensional.

Later in the session I switched to my backup character, a silly twin brother of my old bard character.  The one who lasted thirty minutes before dying and getting reincarnated as a tarasque...  Well, turns out I had never finished the character sheet.  It was still great fun though!  Instead of playing a dumb ogre I was a foppish bard (counterpoint to his skilled, world-wise brother).  I helped the wizard escaped jail, learned that even bards really need to retrieve their possessions from jail because holy cow material components for *everything*, and even survived a couple of encounters!  Got knocked unconscious though.

Then the party realized that the incoming liches were scrying my bard to find us at sea.  As the character was a complete joke, and the real party members were pretty solidly evil, they turned my character to stone and pushed him into the ocean XD

So I lost two characters in the session, sorta, and had so much fun.  Technically 3 - through complicated shenanigans, a mindless zombie version of my Ogre Mage Druid was present.  My frenzied berserker beat him into a pulp out of frustration (regaining health) then used him as ammo as well.  It was amazingly cathartic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on June 30, 2015, 01:36:41 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 29, 2015, 11:40:46 pm

Technically we really did use a hydra - our transmutation wizard - as an improvised weapon.

You had a Monk of the Empty Hand pick him up and beat people with it? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 30, 2015, 08:40:08 pm

I have to say that often I think the games split the knowledges up too much.

I mean given that religion history are pretty much one and the same... you would think there would be crossover.

Or Religion and the Planes... or Geography and the Planes... or Nobility and history...

Sometimes I wish they would just sort of redo the knowledges to reflect the ACTUAL dungeons and dragons universe and not real life.

Or heck... give them some fringe inclusions... Have a monster knowledge skill and a religion knowledge skill... and allow religion knowledge to work on knowledge of the undead AND allow knowledge history to allow fringe knowledge on gods.

It just becomes incredulous that "I" can know more then the typical adventurer reading a few books then the adventurers who have to do it for a living.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 30, 2015, 08:44:35 pm

I think they mashed a few of them together in Pathfinder's Unchained book, but I don't care much for alternate rulings. I do like the adventuring/background skills bit though; if only because it gives everyone more skill points to work with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 30, 2015, 08:57:21 pm

DM fiat.  I think knowledge checks in particular are a case where the DM can or should be creative, or allow creative suggestions.  In my game we're often allowed to apply knowledge skills which are only tangentially related to the question.  The DM just applies a secret modifier, and sometimes changes the perspective of what we know.

A common case in my group is Knowledge (History) as a fallback.  If we don't have the knowledge of Arcana or Religion to recognize a, say, ritual...  We can use Knowledge (History) to see if there are legends we remember from our childhood. 

So for the forest of trees that bleed.  My druid from a distant island only knows that they're unnatural, but alive (from Nature).  The party wizard identifies some sort of soul trapping (Arcana).  Our ogre grew up nearby, and his people knew to avoid them because they'll drain your very soul (History).

Whereas the rest of us couldn't get anything from Knowledge (History), because we were from distant lands.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 03, 2015, 06:09:33 pm

Ugh I just made a session too silly again.

I am sure someone else can tell this story better

But the goal of the session was that the players were going to hunt down the families of those who got killed and make amends by mostly... giving them money if they need it.

I kind of was like "Well... why is this a whole session?" given that this could have been done as an aside or by a post. So I created Drama.

So basically they just saved an Orphanage from debt and the children were so happy they sang like a heavenly choir that even made the birds in the sky happier.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 04, 2015, 04:20:43 am

Playing a pregen adventure with the group I've been a part of for about two years. Tonight though, the lawful-evil assassin went on a goddamn killing spree. He killed the captain of the guard, a sergeant, and a bunch of 1st level warrior guards. Only the one sergeant and the captain were dominated.

Our group was wanted for a murder of a woman the assassin extorted information out of. The spawn killed her, likely. So we were hiding in a ropetrick from the previous night in the inn room we were renting when the guards busted in and couldn't find us. He ran off and did his killing thing while the wizard teleported me and the Tiny-sized gnome out beyond the gates. We were then seeming'd into a man, a woman, and a baby. We walked back into town in our disguse seeking shelter from the 65mph wind and torrential rain. We weren't allowed into the inn where we were staying but they let us in the stable. Where the wizard (father) started arguing with the gnome (baby). The whole time, the assasin is going murderhappy while I'm playing mother as a female druid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 04, 2015, 08:32:43 am

Quote from: Neonivek on July 03, 2015, 06:09:33 pm

Ugh I just made a session too silly again.

I am sure someone else can tell this story better

But the goal of the session was that the players were going to hunt down the families of those who got killed and make amends by mostly... giving them money if they need it.

I kind of was like "Well... why is this a whole session?" given that this could have been done as an aside or by a post. So I created Drama.

So basically they just saved an Orphanage from debt and the children were so happy they sang like a heavenly choir that even made the birds in the sky happier.

Saved is maybe a too liberal word there, we bought the orphanage mostly with the goal (at least for me) of getting apprentices who are endlessly thankful to us.  Exceptionally devoted trainees with no parents to tell them not to do what you say is a god send to the slightly grey-er morally inclined.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 05, 2015, 06:58:23 am

Unless you make them do something they don't like and avoid treating them like particularly expendable pawns, the orphans will be extra grateful for the skill training/education and employment options they would never otherwise have obtained.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 05, 2015, 08:36:04 am

I probably should have PTW'd this a while back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 05, 2015, 09:06:53 am

PTW and share experiences as the title suggests.

So, I am participating in my first DnD game- 5e, it's the one run by Fabulous Death Bringer on these forums- and I'm playing a Wood Elf Rogue.

Spoiler: Various experiences in the game (click to show/hide)

What I find cool is how we don't really know a lot of stuff about the other player characters. Whatever we do know is only stuff we've seen them do or heard them say. For example, the mayor of the town we were in asked us to find a noble's son, who had apparently been kidnapped and turned into a vampire spawn. While we were faffing about in town and getting ready to go, one of the maids asked my character to meet with her for a moment. During what would sound like idle chatter to anyone else, but was actually Thieves' Cant, she said that she had recently lost some jewelry, and asked to check if her master had stolen it.

I snuck upstairs while he was out, and looked through his bedroom. Apart from finding a large amount of Teifling porn- which was funny, because one of the players is a Teifling- I found one of the missing pieces. I had the other already, because the town seer had given it to me earlier and said I'd need it soon. So I went back to the maid, returned the stuff, and now I can pretty much call in a favor from any servant in the realm from what I understand.

Combat-wise, my character has taken the Assassin archetype at level 3, when my character was also nearly 1-shotting enemies on critical hits already. So now I can pretty much one-shot anything that hasn't taken a turn yet, short of obscenely tanky enemies. And I found a magic dagger that, after having a dream where a skeletal figure asked me a bunch of questions, can instantly kill enemies that I would normally be able to kill if I rolled the highest possible on the attack (as in, if the attack could kill it, I can choose to have the attack do so without a roll. It's only 3 times per day, though.))

So, not a bad first game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on July 08, 2015, 10:24:06 am

So, I've been playing Pathfinder PCs in a D&D world (due to plane-hopping shenanigans), mostly this doesn't matter but the DM is keeping us follow Pathfinder rules for our characters/spells/etc, while the D&D monsters get whatever D&D descriptions say.

Anyway, two of us come across a Succubus. My partner (Inquisitor) immediately charges and attacks her (we're Evil PCs, but not necessarily psychotic. But we were sorta going along with a female Demon that sorta talked us into attacking her), doing quite a bit of damage, but then the Succubus charms him. I run towards them with my monk, but fall short about 10' so I decide to Intimidate her (this makes the combat pause, sorta, as we engage in dialog, and she demanding to know who sent us, whatever).

This places us in a weird place. The Succubus is now the Inquisitor's "friend", I'm just an acquaintance of his (we're a kinda advance scout for a Team Evil plane-invasion force). Yet, I've not made any hostile moves towards either. She's all "defend meee!" and my plan is going to be like "uh, yeah, let's defend your friend, mate!". If she asks why we attacked her, I'll go "yeah! why did you attack her!? I thought you were best buddies!". Hilarity will ensue, of course. Or not.

Also the Succubus is hovering at about 10' above us right now and I'm a melee character, so whatevs. Just thought it's funny how Charm spells make a mess of everything since everything that happens after them is up to interpretation :P

Oh yeah, apparently there's a +5 bonus to save vs charm if the charmer is fighting the charmed. But I have no idea if it applies if the PC attacked first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on July 09, 2015, 08:15:45 pm

Cross-posting:

Quote from: Kadzar on July 09, 2015, 08:14:19 pm

Anyway, the reason I came here was to share a cool set of hex map templates (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/2z1q4x/hex_map_templates_based_on_5e_dmg_with/) made to work with the guidelines of the Province, Kingdom, Continent maps mentioned in the 5e DMG. It's not the exact size specified the DMG, (this set (http://blogofholding.com/?p=6751) is the right size, although it doesn't have any sort of numbering on the hexes for reference) but it's the right scale and should work just as well for the purposes. You may or may not want to increase the amount of stuff you put on there, but, then, that's also true of the official setup (http://blogofholding.com/?p=6741).

Since I'm sharing Blog of Holding stuff, I figure I might as well also mention this nice random encounter chart template (http://blogofholding.com/?p=6808) he made that encourages you to use random encounters that are more than just monsters.

Also, since I'm sharing hex map stuff, I figure I should share this thing that can make numbered hexes in any size you want, outputting it as SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) format. That same site also has a GIMP script (http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/gimp/hexgimp/) that will let you make pretty TSR-style hex maps in GIMP, and a random generator (http://axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/wildgen/) that will output such a thing randomly. At it also has other things that aren't really related to hex mapping.

Moving on, we have Welsh Piper's hex templates (http://www.welshpiper.com/hex-templates/) which aren't made for the 5e DMG scales (especially since it came out several years before 5e), but it's a set of numbered hex templates, so it's within the theme here. And, anyway, he has a nice guide for making hex map terrain and such. (Part 1 (http://www.welshpiper.com/hex-based-campaign-design-part-1/) and Part 2 (http://www.welshpiper.com/hex-based-campaign-design-part-2/))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on July 09, 2015, 11:54:03 pm

.....

Personally, I would probably overkill the notion, and introduce a heightmap into my preferred CAD software, project a hexagonal lattice down onto the resulting topology,  apply some materials, and then make a presentation rendering from true normal of the map. (Straight down)

But then I am prone to overkill.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: karhell on July 10, 2015, 04:09:45 am

Out of curiosity, what is your preferred CAD software, weird ?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on July 10, 2015, 05:06:00 am

Dassault systemes CATIA.

It's what BOEING and pals use to make airplanes. It is modular, and has workbenches for just about every engineering task you can think of.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: karhell on July 10, 2015, 07:27:51 am

Overkill indeed, when it comes to D&D maps.
Then again, if that's not up to the task, I really don't know what is ^^

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on July 10, 2015, 07:35:37 am

Blender? It seems like it does some new terrifying thing every time I look at it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 11, 2015, 12:45:57 am

Well. My new group is interesting. On the one hand, the session opened with the the rest of the party stuck on Noah's Ark on top of a volcano and half of them doing coke, but on the other my Monk got his left arm lopped off and replaced with a cyborg arm and made $150k injecting unconscious people with a mad scientist's serum. And then we traveled to the Garden of Eden via Ettore Bugatti's PMC camp and Jurassic Park. Other notable events included one of the guys pulling a three foot long diamond dildo (it's one of the best weapons we have now) out of a stone in a forest and another accidentallying four newborn white dragons with explosive rounds while he was trying to kill another party member with his sniper rifle.

So, uh, this is going to be a thing. D&D 5e, for what it's worth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 11, 2015, 01:29:31 am

Literally the only thing that sounded remotely like DnD in that entire paragraph was 'monk'. The rest is either a fever dream or bad greentext. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on July 11, 2015, 01:45:02 am

Indeed. I dont recall ever seeing a "Solid diamond dildo" in ANY DND source book...

(But I wonder if that's what Mario found (http://media.tumblr.com/d36f2643a449680bb4c1e3d61e51665a/tumblr_inline_mwe926oiYW1r3nvvr.jpg)...)

Her chamber maid sure does freak out when you find it, that's for sure!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 11, 2015, 01:50:40 am

Great few stories for you guys since this is my first time on.

Started my first real campaign as DM a few weeks ago, and I've been working in 5e with a High Elf (she calls it moon elf) Bard named Faen, a Half-Elf Sorcerer named Jim Darkmagic, A half-elf Paladin named Fao-Lin, a human rogue played by me named Carl, and a Gnome Barbarian by the name of Tyson-Chan, the pink haired 3ft tall loli girl who the player specified had large knockers and is going more and more insane. How insane are we talking? For starters, she's got her own houserule that she wears masks all the time, and each masks gives her buffs and debuffs. For example, she has a horse head mask that gives her +2 to persuasion, +2 to bludgeoning damage, her alignment changes to good, but she gets a -4 to intimidate and a -2 to hit, as well as the siege attacker bonus when attacking doors. The character is based on Jacket sort of, so lots of masks to pick from, and she makes her own masks from fallen enemies and allies. In fact, the paladin just died from stupidity so she turned his face into a mask that gives her smite, makes her gain +1 to AC, makes her good as well but cases her int score to drop by 4 (long story with that).

So Tyson-Chan's player is a bit of a troll, so things for Tyson-Chan go unusually strange. Party gathers at the adventurer's guild for a job, and Faen picks her up to get her to join.

So the party goes tro kill some goblins and find out that there are orcs with them. After an ambush round and everything getting their butt kicked, Tyson-chan smacks an orc and breaks his teeth and Faen picks it up in the middle of combat, reminding me and the rest of the party that despite being 32 years old , she's stuck in the mindset of a small child still as she shouts with glee that she got a pointy teeth. Combat ends, and Tyson-chan fails an intimidate check and Faen does a persuasion check which she suggested (but did not do) that she flashes the orc to get him to talk. The whole cuteness and innocent thing got the orc talking, and Tyson-chan tries again to scare the orc. She lands a critical and the orc shits his pants, and the player begins the "Shit Counter".

Later on, in the first dungeon, she's in the way, so knowing she's light enough, the bard PICKS UP AND THROWS THE BARBARIAN INTO THE ENEMY. Needless to say, the enemy were surprised of weaponized gnomes.

So they end up finding a door to the dining hall, and Tyson-chan desires to peek inside. The player rolled awful (like a total stealth of 3 I think) and so it was decided Tyson-chan doesn't make the door squeak, but makes a loud high pitched squeaking with her OWN DAMN VOICE. So the bard takes it upon herself to punish the gnome by kicking her through the door and into the enemy. Unfortunatley for Tyson-Chan, this is into the Orc berserker. The berserker fumbles his roll on hitting her after screaming in her face and failing, killing a goblin upon release. So what does the orc berserker do now he's near death? He picks up the gnome and uses Tyson-Chan the barbarian as a bludgeoning weapon to smack Carl in the face and almost kill him. The quote of the day for that session was: "Do you ever feel like beating up a motherf&#$er with another motherf*#@er?".

Next session, party is debating on what to do. They decide to rest in the abandoned larder and forget to clean up the blood in the room, despite moving/beheading the bodies (they're collecting heads). So the only person who can speak/understand orcish hears of a big orc kicking the door into the dining hall off its hinges. They hear voices coming towards the door, and barricade it with a massive keg of rotten beer. They then escape through a secret passage and fire one of Tyson-chan's firebombs. Needless to say, the flame caused the entire room to burst, forcing a cave in and even breaking the ceiling in the passageway.

Time passes and they head downstairs and find hte bedrooms. They look behind door #1 and door #2 and find nothing of note but goblin junk. The paladin in heavy armor decides to jump from the middle steps down to the basement (which they were already on) and alert every goblin and orc in their room. Upon doing a random roll, 14 goblins and 6 orcs walk out of their rooms and see a very stupid paladin and his companions. Because I had it with his stupid comments and other bullcrap, my character (who would do this in character as well) pushes the paladin into the hallways before stepping back. Needless to say, the paladin died, but he survived the entire encounter until the orcs started dragging him away and he critically failed his third death save.

Time skip to a new animal companion being made and spotting an entire room of charred and headless bodies from the explosion, the party makes it outside to see the orc chief on a winter wolf mount, four orcs and a goblin chief all ready to fight. I planned this encounter to be the orc getting away and the party fighting his lackeys and the  goblin. HOWEVER, Tyson-chan, who is at 21/35hp stands up and challenges the orc chief to a duel. At this point, I take the book I was carrying with my notes and threw it saying "THE ORC CHIEF ACCEPTS. You win, the party goes free. If you lose, the party dies." So Tyson-chan wins initiative and goes into a berserker frenzy and attacks recklessly. She proceeds to land two attacks and hurt him a decent amount (keep in mind, Tyson-chan is wearing a mask that gives no benefits to her at all during this fight). The orc lands a critical hit and a regular hit, which totaled to a huge amount, but beause of raging resisted the damage, tyson-chan only took enough damage to knock her to 6hp. She then proceeds to land a heavy hit with max damage and a miss with a second attack from frenzy, and the orc swings, and misses completely with two attacks. Tyson-chan swings again and another single hit, the orc looking worse for wear now at 1/3hp left. The chief then swings and hits, and rolls poorly in damage, leaving tyson at 1hp. Tyson-chan swings and hits twice, dropping the orc chief to 26hp. The orc swings again and lucky for tyson-chan, misses both times. The gnome then swings twice again and rolls max damage on both and I threw everything on the table off the table as I look at him and scream at him "YOU JUST F#$@ING KILLED AN ORC CHIEF BY YOURSELF WHEN YOU WERE WOUNDED."

Tyson-chan's level: 3
Orc's Challenge Rating: 4

This defeat caused the orcs to steal the winter wolf mount and flee, and the goblin drops everything as he shits his pants and surrenders. Tyson-chan's player proclaims that the gnome is unkillable, which Carl proceeds to kick her in the crotch and knock her out with sneak attack damage added on an unarmed strike.

Now, the party has met the gnome Lilli "Noshoe" who owns the shoe stall in town that seems to carry everything but shoes (the gnome pulled out a 30lb bag of clay from a handy haversack, as well as a shovel and 12 small vases, but no shoes) and watched as my character gets arrested and placed in the hole for beating an orc in prison, that he jailed himself, with his bare hands. So now the party gets a week of downtime as Carl, the DM's character, gets a week in jail and the paladin gets a free rez from the mayor who believes the quest was much more important than most quests given at the guild (to be fair, in this homebrewn world, goblins and orcs allying caused a massive war to break out that tore apart the continent the party is on).

I'm expecting more madness with Tyson-Chan as they go do some werewolf hunting. To prepare, Tyson-Chan walks up the blacksmith and holds up her greataxe above her head and shouts to the man and his son: "I have here a greataxe that I love. But I want it to be a bestaxe!" And that's the story of how the apprentice got whacked and the barbarian gnome got a silvered axe

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 11, 2015, 02:26:25 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on July 11, 2015, 01:29:31 am

Literally the only thing that sounded remotely like DnD in that entire paragraph was 'monk'. The rest is either a fever dream or bad greentext. :P

Quote from: wierd on July 11, 2015, 01:45:02 am

Indeed. I dont recall ever seeing a "Solid diamond dildo" in ANY DND source book...

(But I wonder if that's what Mario found (http://media.tumblr.com/d36f2643a449680bb4c1e3d61e51665a/tumblr_inline_mwe926oiYW1r3nvvr.jpg)...)

Her chamber maid sure does freak out when you find it, that's for sure!

Yeah, I was warned ahead of time that other than the DM I was the only person with prior D&D experience, and that he was taking a very go-with-the-flow approach so that people could concentrate on having fun, which ended up including a lot of houseruling. I mean, it's not what I was expecting, and it's only D&D in the sense that we're using the system and character classes, but it's fun enough to play, and the sessions last around six hours, so I've got my fix.

Also, Bugatti's PMC camp? It had a fountain laced with LSD. There was a great moment where we were trying to sneak past a T-Rex that was gorging itself on a Stego, and it critfailed its Perception check; it dove headfirst into the carcass and couldn't get up for a while. That was toward the end of the session and things needed to get to a stopping point, so when it did get back up, it ended up being chased off by a Deva named Starlord riding a raptor. It's disjointed and weird, but thank fucking god it isn't a pileup of munchkins and rules lawyers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on July 11, 2015, 12:08:52 pm

It kind of soundsnlike an Axe Cop cartoon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on July 11, 2015, 01:53:58 pm

Quote from: wierd on July 11, 2015, 01:45:02 am

Indeed. I dont recall ever seeing a "Solid diamond dildo" in ANY DND source book...

Ah, but you see, the genius of D&D 5e is that it does away with all the huge weapons lists and gives you a dozen that you can "reskin" to be anything. So a nunchaku, or a dildo would just be a club :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 11, 2015, 04:02:06 pm

Ah, but a nunchaku would be a double-weapon club, more like a quarterstaff ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 11, 2015, 04:20:07 pm

I think double-ended dildos don't have to be quarterstaff sized :P
But they do need to be enchanted separately for both heads.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 11, 2015, 04:51:37 pm

Oh, yeah, and for next session I could use some help in a WIFOM loop.

We've got two options in the form of two trees: A bright, leafy tree with shining red apples, and a dead grey tree with vivid blue apples. We have to, as a group, choose which one we will partake of. We've been told outright that one of them will hatch any remaining white dragon eggs among our diamonds, but we don't know which one. We also don't know which is which, just that one is the Tree of Life and the other is the Tree of Knowledge.

We do know where we're headed after that, though. We got our choice of Asgard, Shangri-la, Mount Olympus, or El Dorado. No guesses as to which the party of bank robbers, jewel thieves, and shortsighted petty criminals picked.

Also, last session I lost out on $50k because I wasn't willing to inject that mystery serum into a sleeping platypus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 11, 2015, 04:54:10 pm

Well, in a 5e game I'm in on here with other bay12 guys, I'm now locked in someone's basement after they drugged me and probably did unspeakable things to me. Especially with a vampire in the building

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 11, 2015, 04:56:24 pm

Unfortunately, we don't have any IC reasons to know where to find you...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 11, 2015, 04:58:42 pm

Exploring mines you own (after poisoning the inhabitants) is fun. Finding flesh golems is less fun. Being knocked to 0 HP in two attacks is not fun.
_{Forgetting how to do rolls and checks all the time is less than not fun. :P}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 11, 2015, 05:16:27 pm

Quote from: Twinwolf on July 11, 2015, 04:56:24 pm

Unfortunately, we don't have any IC reasons to know where to find you...

Last thing I said to you was I was having dinner with Aurel... Must've been a crazy night then...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 11, 2015, 05:18:47 pm

Oh, right. Once we figure out you're missing then, I suppose Maya will bring it up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 11, 2015, 05:29:35 pm

To be fully honest, the DM, since I know him in real life, has been trying to mess with me.

You don't want to know the nightmare that proceeded to happen when we kidnapped the kid. It honestly made me want to leave. Fab Deathbringer can be a real handful...

To get back into context, here's a story from my 4e game:

Paladin gained a holy symbol to give him the ability to cast turn undead. Him and the party attacks a big ass wurm I found in Dwarf Fortress and made in there (a feathered worm). Since it was undead, when the paladin got swallowed whole, he used turn undead inside the damn thing. The push damage plus the radiant damage messed it up and decapitated the wurm. Head falls down 35ft and lands on half the party, killing the Rangers brand new pet cave croc and knocked out the swordmage and pinning another guy.

And despite all that, the head of the undead monster gets back up and still fights

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on July 11, 2015, 06:00:54 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on July 11, 2015, 04:51:37 pm

Oh, yeah, and for next session I could use some help in a WIFOM loop.

We've got two options in the form of two trees: A bright, leafy tree with shining red apples, and a dead grey tree with vivid blue apples. We have to, as a group, choose which one we will partake of. We've been told outright that one of them will hatch any remaining white dragon eggs among our diamonds, but we don't know which one. We also don't know which is which, just that one is the Tree of Life and the other is the Tree of Knowledge.

We do know where we're headed after that, though. We got our choice of Asgard, Shangri-la, Mount Olympus, or El Dorado. No guesses as to which the party of bank robbers, jewel thieves, and shortsighted petty criminals picked.

Also, last session I lost out on $50k because I wasn't willing to inject that mystery serum into a sleeping platypus.

The obvious solution to this predicament:

Pick the fruit from both trees, but don't eat. Take the fruit to town, and pay to have it identified.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 11, 2015, 10:07:10 pm

I had my parrot Awakened. There is a wondrous item called the Collar of the True Companion, so we didn't even need a druid.

He is now stupidly smart and charismatic. And a rogue with ninja tricks. And undead because Dhampir Vampiric Companion.

He is literally a zombie ninja parrot pirate.

And we've hit a part of the adventure path where things slow to a crawl. Few encounters and not much roleplaying. Just tons and tons of exposition and downtime.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on July 11, 2015, 10:12:54 pm

I'm just imagining James Bond with a parrot in place of the MC.
"So, the amazing superspy, Mr. Squawk, does the trapped little polly want a cracker?"
"What is it now? Kitten Whiskers? Now that you've trapped me, you gonna wrap me in yarn and throw me to your henchmen?"
"No, Mr. Squawk, I expect you to die."
*Bang*
*Theme Music*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 11, 2015, 10:44:20 pm

BEST PARROT EVER. 10/10

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 12, 2015, 01:12:21 am

Eh, just noticed that I'm not quite a high enough level to turn it undead yet. But it will definitely become a thing. I'll probably just replace it with Craft Magic Arms/Armour for now. Or an Extra Revelation. Still need a few more feats for the parrot though, and I can't seem to decide.

What do you do when you're in a campaign with literal weeks to months of downtime? The only thing I can think of doing would be training stats up. Not much else to do when you are on a boat for months on end.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 12, 2015, 01:22:40 am

Spam class-related skills until level-up, use new skills to brutally murder annoying partymate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 12, 2015, 01:30:35 am

Nah, problem player left a while ago.

His character was killed. So was another character, when he was rather brutally 'retired' by his player. In-game we decided that the story was that they tried to steal a lifeboat and make off with some of our loot, but the not-problem-player's new PC, who was stranded on an island, encountered them and turned them inside out. He then returned our lifeboat and we welcomed him aboard.

And we level up when the DM decides we can. Our party is still a bit larger than is normal for an adventure path, so he is going by the footnotes in the book that say "players should be level X by now" instead of giving us XP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 12, 2015, 01:42:30 am

(as usual, I don't know if Pathfinder is different)
Ideally have Scribe Scroll or Craft Wand with good spells.  Failing that, Craft Wondrous Item with useful caster levels.  Failing *that*, skillpoints in craft (X) and cry as you realize it takes days to make shitty basic items or meager profit (half your check result per WEEK).  Or you can take Profession to earn...  Exactly the same as craft, without any of the meager benefits.

Perform is far superior to craft or profession, RAW, if you have enough ranks.  DC25 you early 1d6/day and gain a "national reputation" - far more than Craft.  DC30 you attract attention from other nations, extraplanar beings, and 3d6 sweet gold.
...  Yeah, downtime is really just for spellcasters and RP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 12, 2015, 01:49:16 am

Unfortunately, being on a boat with no real options to stop anywhere because the plot demands it makes for poor play. Especially since the times we do stop aren't interesting. Just more exposition dumping with a side of uninteresting fetch-quests that host little, if any, combat or skill checks. Fine for roleplayers, though. Just not so much for me.

Not that I don't have skills or other things to contribute outside of combat. I also serve as a magic-item-maker-monkey. Though now my parrot's even better at skills than I am because Stupidly Smart Rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Stuebi on July 13, 2015, 05:31:23 am

So, I mainly have experience with "The Dark Eye", a originally german (I think) setting. Recently I wanted to get into Dungeons & Dragons, so I started looking for a group. "Luck" would have it that an old friend was playing a DnD Campaign and that people would let me join. We kinda fast forwaarded trough Character creation and he hauled me into a session pretty quickly, saying that I would "learn best by doing". That, at least, was probably true.

The group was lacking something meaty, so I went with a Barbarian. The group consisted of a noble (I forgot the class, sorry!), a halfling rogue, a magic user (What exactly he was remained a secret) and a Ranger (Or Archer, I'm not quite sure what all the Class names are yet, sorry.).

Now, the Noble was probably the ponciest ponce I ever saw in my entire RPG career. In fact, it was acted out pretty nicely IC. The guy would keep a safe distance from my guy, because of the "smell" and would make regular, very insulting, comments towards him. Now most of those were using a vocabulary too complicated too understand for someone who grew up in the wilds, so whenever that dude was talking, my character basically only heard that weird mumbling sound from Charlie Brown. So at first, everything was dandy.

However, it went sour pretty fast. After realizing his "clever" stoneman insults werent hitting home for lack of understanding, the Noble (De Facto the party leader) got a little more obvious with his attitude. First his insults got simpler, and were thus rendered udnerstandable for my country Character. Secondly he started treating him, quite literally, like an animal. There were cases were he wouldnt allow my Barb to sleep in caves or houses the party was resting in and would order him to sleep outside. Sometimes he would pay my Guy less reward after we fulfilled Quests or Orders, because he couldnt count good enough to notice on his own.

There'es a myriad more stuff, but you get the general picture. Now, usually I try to withhold character conflict that could turn out deadly for as long as possible, as I have amde bad experiences with it in the past. But I will be honest, all that stuff made me pretty motivated to just duke it out with the guy and polish his face with some fist (Which, imho, wouldnt be out of character for a wild warrior from beyond civilization). The halfling was pretty good friends with my Character at this point tough, and would usually defuse the situation.

Last session, it went bad. We were fighting in a mountain-region, relatively close to a cliff. Halfway trough combat the Noble falls over the Edge, just barely hanging on. I got a lucky shot on my enemy and my Character got a couple seconjds to scan the area.

I'm gonna be completely honest (as I was with the group), I had ample time to take the situation in, the noble hanging at the cliff was visible and basically anyone could hear him. So what does my character do? Runs over to help the Halfling with his enemy. The noble eventually fell down, broke quite a few bones (And flasks in his backpack), and was appearantly robbed by one of the Bandits. Who took the opportunity and stole his purse and broke his nose when the guy tried to stab him with a knife.

Cue table flipping, screaming and what not. Whereafter I plainly stated that this what he had to expect after all the stuff he had been doing. I got the usual excuse. "It was IC!". Yeah? So was mine. So up yours.

Havent talked to the guy since. The group is pushing for me to make the first step and apologize, so we can play on. But to be completely honest, I dont wanna. Imho I was right, and he ahd it coming. And I'm not about to pretend I'm sorry to such a scumbag who throws a hissy fit over this.

Am I wrong?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 13, 2015, 05:54:09 am

It's always sour when ic conflict turns into player conflict. It sucks, and "but I'm right" is a pretty bitter prize. I do think you were right in this matter, and I personally really dislike the kind of players who don't know when to stop pushing or take it personally when you finally push back. So yeah, you were right and it was a completely sensible thing to do, both in character and from you as a player. But if you value the rest of your group composition then you might want to be the bigger man and approach the player anyway. You can always make sure the other guys know that you're doing it for their sake and so you can continue playing together, and not because you think you were wrong, and that you won't necessarily put up with similar behaviour from problem guy in the future.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 13, 2015, 06:00:02 am

Yeah sometimes being the bigger man means taking the blame or the indignity of apologizing for something that isn't your fault.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 13, 2015, 09:54:30 am

Update on tyson-chan:

The gnome just kicked the shit out of a minotuar with her fists... And tore off his horn and beat him with it while still alive

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sergius on July 13, 2015, 10:13:54 am

Quote from: Stuebi on July 13, 2015, 05:31:23 am

(stuff)
...
The group is pushing for me to make the first step and apologize, so we can play on...
...

F-that. The guy is the one that flipped out OOC, so he is clearly being the disruptive one, even if not counting the disruptive IC crap he did. He harassed you IC, which IS an OOC player (not character) problem. You didn't harass him, just refused to help him that one time. Reap what you sow and all that. He's 100% hypocritical about the entire situation, and he has ZERO defense of his actions as being "IC and thus good roleplaying" when he flips out OOC when you just do the thing that makes sense IC.

I wouldn't try to get in the "good graces" of a group that thinks that you owe him an apology and he owes you nothing. Ego aside, that just means they don't have your best interests in mind at all.

Quote from: Neonivek on July 13, 2015, 06:00:02 am

Yeah sometimes being the bigger man means taking the blame or the indignity of apologizing for something that isn't your fault.

That robs the other person of the opportunity to grow as a human being, so no.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 13, 2015, 10:41:00 am

Aye I am in agreement with Sergius, in these sorts of situations if you apologize to said individual he'll think he was in the right and the attitude will continue.  As a bit of an ass myself sometimes I admit that I fail to notice when my assery is actually upsetting and when it's IC fun, and it does let you grow as an individual to be told honestly in a not-attacking manner that you were in fact in the fault.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 13, 2015, 11:01:06 am

What was your barbarian's alignment?

Regardless, I think that the guy deserved more than that. Hell, if I was playing a chaotic neutral barbarian or an evil aligned one, I would've actually kicked him off the cliff. Otherwise, as a barbarian (and treated like a rabid animal) you would probably attack the enemy first. Also, why are they putting it on you when the others could have just as easily went and saved the guy as well? I think buddy is over reacting a bit.

I had a character like that where he treated half of the party like shit, and he even hit me in the head with a mordenkrag twice for almost setting a building on fire... WITH DAILY POWERS. I have the HP to take it since I was a berserker, but I said in character, I deserved the first hit, ubt the SECOND ONE was uncalled for, and I even said if he did it again, I'd fucking kill him. Throw in the fact I was regenerating and I can do more damage to drop him before he could get a third hit in and still have plenty of HP left over, I could have killed him easily, but for the sake of him being a player I didn't. Ten minutes later, he beats another player to near death, and we all decide to kill his character.

Some people take RPing too seriously, and not only need to be toned down to remember there are other players who are playing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 13, 2015, 11:58:07 am

That's kinda why I had to leave my group last week (still reeling from that, we had some amazing times.  Many more than I even shared here).  Fricken OOC in IC.  This player's personal charisma and long winded speeches kept winning in-game concessions for his 12CHA barbarian (no points in social skills).  He bossed the party around too, according to a bizarre set of behaviors I didn't understand OOC much less IC.  It finally came to a head when I tried to introduce yet *another* new character, and...

Okay so my character is a volunteer guard in the last bastion of good on the planet, a camp of elves druids and fey around an enchanted wizard tower.  I'm actually neutral, because the barbarian character is evil as hell.  He denies it in and out of character, but he's half-possessed by a devil worshiper and has to eat a sentient creature every day to survive.  He does nothing to remove either curse.  He's evil evil evil argh it feels so good to be able to say it, because mentioning it at the table always sparked so much bullshit outrage.  "Beyond morality" my ass.

So yeah there's no way I can join them as a good character, so I went with neutral again.  A hardened veteran from the waves of rogue necromancers who periodically try to overwhelm the tower's sanctuary.  I patrol the energy barrier (which weakens undead), leaving the corpses outside the edge.  Then I see the party.  They're chasing a young boy on the edge of town.

"Stop!  What is your business here?" I ask.
"What is *your* business here?"
"I protect the sanctuary from necromancers.  Are you necromancers?"  They are being followed by an NPC who totally is a necromancer.
"Maybe *you're* a necromancer!"  The wizard readies an action to cast a spell
"But... I just killed all those other necromancers.  I clearly live here."
"Whatever, we're going inside"
"I can't let you do that until you explain your business!"  I draw my ceremonial shortsword, mercy enchanted.
I die to finger of death.
We decide that I clearly cast Death Ward on myself before each patrol.  I'm a shugenja, I certainly have enough castings.
"You just tried to kill me!"
"You started it, you drew your sword!"
Some bickering later, I manage to learn that they want to defeat the cultists who have occupied Highcrest, the last major city with living people.  Formerly a bastion of paladins, but we sure screwed that up...  They need someone who's good of heart to hold an artifact, hence their attempt to recruit a child.
"The devil worshipers?  I hate them passionately.  We got off on the wrong foot, I'll help you find someone."
"Cool.  Also we're responsible for the recent disappearance of an entire continent, which caused massive worldwide flooding."  I don't even remember how this came up.  It sets off alarm bells for my character since he was basically granted his powers to restore the wounded planet.  Instead of killing them, I decide I need to follow them to find out what happened and how to fix it.  Maybe it was an accident.  IDK, I was trying hard to justify joining the party.
"That's... interesting... I'm going to need to accompany you.  I believe you're going to fight the cultists, but I can't just let a kid from the camp leave with some strangers."
"You don't trust us!?  But you attacked us for no reason!"
"I - what?  I drew my sword!  You were about to walk by-"
"Hey wear this collar, it... protects from mind control"  The collar allows you to be voluntarily dominated.  It does protect against mind control, through mind control.  Later the barbarian's player swore he wasn't lying, even through omission.  Such BS.
"Wow, no.  I find that highly suspect.  You just cast finger of death on me.  I'll just accompany you-"
"You're acting super suspicious we're going to ignore you now!"
I follow them into the settlement.  There are several unicorns and pixies around, casting detect evil.  A pixie runs up and accuses them of being evil.  Another chance for me to earn their trust!
"Don't worry, they're with me."  To the party: "Don't worry, I kinda suspected you were evil.  But I don't care, as long as you're working against the devil worshipers-"
"I'm not evil!  That pixie's racist!"  This would be interesting IC except that the player rants about this OOC a lot.  He actually believes the character isn't evil, in-universe concepts of morality be damned.
"Er, sure.  Okay.  Ha, yeah they are kinda annoying."

Suddenly the DM has the favored soul of Pelor, a twelve year old kid we've met before, arrive and try to join us.  I think he and I both wanted to move things along.  This is perfect!
"Hey Jason, where's your mother?" - the evil half-ogre barbarian
"I dunno, can I come with you please?"
"No, we need to ask her permission first.  Family is important" - the barbarian who just yesterday bought a human slave from ghouls and ate him.
I speak up.  "Uh, I don't know if his mother will go for that.  But she doesn't have to know.  He wants to come along, and I'll be there to keep an eye on him-"
"Whaaaat?  You want to *abduct* this kid?  Are you a necromancer!?  You're definitely not following us."  the barbarian's player is openly mocking me.  It's pretty funny, which is why people are laughing, it's just also really shitty.  I start to lose my cool.
"Psst, look - Jason only wants to follow you because I'm hiding the fact that you attacked me.  I don't trust you, and you're not taking him without me!"
"GUARDS, THIS IMPOSTER WANTS TO ABDUCT THIS CHILD"
fuck it.  That's when things devolved to shouting, followed by sad apologies.  But this shit was just so typical, reliable even.  I just couldn't stay.  I was metagaming to get the group together, he was making a joke of me and my character.  And as usual, justifying it as "You don't understand my character, stop policing my roleplay!!"  He stood by all that stupid stuff his character said, claiming he had every reason to be suspicious.  Based on all those sense motive rolls - OH WAIT we only rolled one at the start, and it confirmed I was a concerned guard.  But screw that, clearly his character would still suspect mine because he felt like it.  His bullheaded "roleplay" cares not for game mechanics, IC knowledge, or other players.

I feel like the only proper IC response would have been to say "You're insane!" and stop them.  Which...  You just can't DO that in a party based game.  Not when you're using so many splatbooks, building a decent character takes like 4 hours minimum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 13, 2015, 01:54:50 pm

Thats bullshit honestly. I had an incident like that with my second character in my first game ever. My party and even the DM HATED my first character because he always questioned people in regards to finding a man who would tell him where the dark tower is. He's not very smart, so he asked a lot of people who fit the description (literally every human in black robes) if they know where he could find it. It involved avenging his family, but this pissed off the party bard (and leader of course) because a) I owed a life debt to her because she saved my character from near-death at the start of the adventure and b) she was the only one allowed to reference anything (seriously, she goes out of her way to make like 100 references in her backstory and I make one and everyone hates it).

So I get killed and make a new character, who I made was the actual man in black that Urist was looknig for and the one who killed his family. He's a neutral evil artificer that was a demon worshipper. But as soon as I met the party, he joined because they found out he was following them in a dungeon because he was watching my first character and he finds his allies interesting (which the later he said). IMMEDIATLEY, the player of the bard steals my character sheet and reads it and says I can't join because I'm evil. In 4e, there is no detect evil and alignments aren't enforced as well, so when I approached the party as a friendly, she loses her shit IN CHARACTER and says I'm not allowed to follow. I was lucky her boyfriend, the 2nd in command sort of, manages to talk her out of character to let me join, and I do. So the rest of the time she goes on insulting me and sending me to do dirty work, which I do because as the way I'm playing him, he doesn't want them to know he has ulterior motives, etc. And so I suffer through it and then we run into the party avenger who is a warforged and broken apart. I repair him (being an artificer) and what does he do? He immediately drops a daily power and hits me! And what do I do? I fucking shoot him with an interrupt. He then turns invisible and prepares to attack me again, and the bard says to the avenger to stop attacking, unless he plans on killing me. So I'm already peeved at this and then the avenger asks who I am and then writes my name down on a list of people to kill.

I then spend the next few sessions getting harassed by the bard telling me what to do and the avenger kicking the snot out of me. So when it came to a part where I had to kill someone innocent to save my identity, I fucking lose it when the bard's player says I was a piece of shit WHEN I DO MORE HEALING THAN HER BECAUSE SHE RATHER DO STUPID SHIT IN RP THAN IN COMBAT WHEN WE'RE IN A COMBAT HEAVY CAMPAIGN. So because her boyfriend pinned me to a wall, he tells me I can leave, I can get killed or I can answer to the party. And because the bard's player said I get leave or die, I lose it and I insta kill her boyfriend with a poison that the party let me have. Immediatley, the bard says as if she'd let an evil character have anything of that sort, but meanwhile I ASKED her to extract it for me and I asked if anyone wanted them and she said no. So becuse the DM wanted her to calm down, I lost three doses of the poison out of my five doses, AFTER I WASTED ONE ON ACCIDENT. So she goes on the roof and laces her crossbow with the poison she stole from me and waits for me to walk out. Little does she know that I always have my signature black cloak on so she has NO idea what I look like without it and I ditch it and break some windows and escape the building. She starts losing her shit when she finds out that she doesn't see ANYONE that she recognizes.

So, I come in with my third character and the bard tells him to piss off at every chance she gets, and though the party is wary, he is going to where the party says they are going, so he asks to join them and the bard loses it. I'm actually playing a neutral good wizard who's a recently born revenant who has no idea about the world except Waterdeep. We're in Sigil, which is a HUB for interdimensional travel, so I even offer them plenty of gold to let me go with them, to the point I'm almost paying for the item to get me there, and she still tells me to fuck off.

So shit happens and they leave without me. Why? Bard is still butthurt over me killing her boyfriend (who is completely over it himself) and she didn't get to kill me.

So I miss a session and it turned out that when I was gone, the DM brought it on himself to have my old character hire assassins to kill the party in their sleep. What happens? He kills the other person who was there when I killed the bard's boyfriend. So when I show up next session, she's still angry at me because she blamed me for it.

I enter as an elf berserker and things are ok until I realize I hate this character and he was poorly made, so the DM let me make another since he already doesn't have anything and I take the magical item and in OOC, she says give it to the NPC who my character does not care about. I say I have it and I'm not gonig to give it up as a fuck you to her for her being a bitch. She loses it in OOC and says I'm leaving and I should give her all of my gear. I tell her IC that I hold ntohing to the party and I will be using it to make money to help look for someone. She throws a fit and some shit at me in RL and eventually I give her the fucking thing after her tantrum and we continue with me entering as a friend of my first character who was hoping to find him, but the bard actually said to him he's buried back in his home with his family (because she didn't want to say she threw his body in a garbage pit that was removed form existance). My guy calls her bluff and says his family HAD no grave, as there were no bodies (burned/MIA) and she loses it because she said she has 17 bluff and I should believe everything she says when I know facts.

So needless to say after more shit, I left the party, but that was after I got the shit beat out of me by the avenger (because its me) and I had to leave to go to rehab. But I'm surprised I still stayed after all her bullshit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 02:07:21 pm

Wow, guys, I've had some bad experiences with players but holy shit that is just uncool.  I don't know how anyone can tolerate that level of bullshit at the table.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 13, 2015, 02:10:22 pm

...I am now extremely glad that my first experience with D&D is on this forum which is mostly populated by people that are not like anyone described in the last few posts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 13, 2015, 02:13:36 pm

He's a cool guy and we're still friends, he's just an overbearing and frankly shitty roleplayer.
I'm pretty bad at staying in character too, particularly using voice rather than text, but I feel like I err on the side of meta-cooperation.  But eh, of course that would be my opinion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 02:17:17 pm

I'm really just talking about the fact that your DM just let that shit happen at all, I would have issued warnings and if it did not cease I would have flat-out ejected the antagonist, friend or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 13, 2015, 02:58:59 pm

I have a player who constantly does stupid things and gets mad when I punish him for it. It's really hard to even run a session with him since he interrupts me before I finish saying something to ask stupid random shit about things he's going to do later. He's got one more chance before I kick him

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Stuebi on July 13, 2015, 03:12:21 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on July 13, 2015, 11:01:06 am

What was your barbarian's alignment?

Regardless, I think that the guy deserved more than that. Hell, if I was playing a chaotic neutral barbarian or an evil aligned one, I would've actually kicked him off the cliff. Otherwise, as a barbarian (and treated like a rabid animal) you would probably attack the enemy first. Also, why are they putting it on you when the others could have just as easily went and saved the guy as well? I think buddy is over reacting a bit.

I had a character like that where he treated half of the party like shit, and he even hit me in the head with a mordenkrag twice for almost setting a building on fire... WITH DAILY POWERS. I have the HP to take it since I was a berserker, but I said in character, I deserved the first hit, ubt the SECOND ONE was uncalled for, and I even said if he did it again, I'd fucking kill him. Throw in the fact I was regenerating and I can do more damage to drop him before he could get a third hit in and still have plenty of HP left over, I could have killed him easily, but for the sake of him being a player I didn't. Ten minutes later, he beats another player to near death, and we all decide to kill his character.

Some people take RPing too seriously, and not only need to be toned down to remember there are other players who are playing

Uff, I'd have to dig up my Character sheet. I found the whole alignment thing to be very confusing and still try to wrap my head around it (The concept of a Person being described by a single aligntment is still very weird to me. I couldnt put myself into the grid, for example. Dont people fluctuate at least a little?). Anyway, hes not evil, i'm pretty sure. And the other character were preoccupied with fighting at the time and I was the only one at freedom to choose where to help. But jsut as stated, my Barb had no interest saving a guy who treated him like dirt.

I contacted him today and straight up told him that there was no apology to be expected from me. If he could admit to being an ass, I would gladly try to get our group back on track. And to ease the waves IC, I'm pretty sure I can easily play the Barb thinking that the characters are now even. Let's see how he reacts, I'm not that attached to the group anyway and was looking into Forum groups (btw, anything going on in Bay12 in this regard? I'd lvoe to get some more experience or generally jsut talk to people about the setting. A lot of stuff still completely boggles me).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 13, 2015, 03:14:01 pm

(Our own Neonivek is hosting a Pathfinder campaign, and I think there might be a slot or two open if you ask him.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 03:16:31 pm

Alignment is a touchy issue on the net, so discussion of it isn't allowed on this thread (just a friendly reminder.)  That said since to the best of my knowledge (and verifiable via 3rd ed) barbarians cannot be lawful, so your actions would be completely acceptable within character limitations.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 13, 2015, 04:41:55 pm

I think it's a perfectly fine thing to do IC.  Selfishness and vindictiveness are better indicators of "evil" than "lol i blow up the inn cause lol"

Personally I don't regard the D&D alignments at all.  If I could sum up D&D in five words it'd be "signs eclipsing what they signify" and alignment is numero uno in that regard.  The 4e skill debacle too, people getting upset because they don't have a labyrinthine system of rules to govern non-combat roleplaying.  Rules becoming an entity on their own rather than a simple way to represent the world and resolve contradicting intentions.  That's D&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 13, 2015, 04:43:38 pm

I just skip the alignment stuff all together and go True Neutral so I'm not restricted to alignment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 13, 2015, 04:48:30 pm

"Sir, thank you for helping me! But why would you do that for a complete stranger?"
"True Neutral."

"You've killed my family... my entire village... why...?"
"True Neutral."

"You just stabbed Satan and Jesus at the same time! Why would you--"
"True. Neutral."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 13, 2015, 04:50:06 pm

Pretty much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Caz on July 13, 2015, 05:14:00 pm

Used to play it with a couple of friends of mine. We were light on the rules, heavy on the RP. Lots of fun times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 06:17:46 pm

Guys, I very literally just effing told you not to discuss Alignment.  No alignment discussion, it's in the effing OP rules.  Don't do it again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 13, 2015, 06:21:16 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 06:17:46 pm

Guys, I very literally just effing told you not to discuss Alignment.  No alignment discussion, it's in the effing OP rules.  Don't do it again.

I hate to be this guy, but you need to follow your own addendum 2.

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on July 13, 2015, 03:14:01 pm

(Our own Neonivek is hosting a Pathfinder campaign, and I think there might be a slot or two open if you ask him.)

I'll ask neon as I am playing terraria with him atm, but there probably is as we started with 6, went down to 5 players and then a couple don't show frequently.  I may also need to drop out due to new found work so there is that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 06:25:51 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 06:17:46 pm

Guys, I very literally just effing told you not to discuss Alignment.  No alignment discussion, it's in the effing OP rules.  Don't do it again.

^^ This?  This is a warning.  I made a post no more than half a dozen above yours that there would be no alignment discussion in this thread and the very first post after it breaks the rules.  Be happy no one got reported for it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 13, 2015, 06:27:14 pm

It's an unnecessarily aggressive warning was my point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 14, 2015, 01:44:12 pm

Okay, open for business again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 14, 2015, 04:47:33 pm

Gonna start running my very own pathfinder game probably starting next week. the prime material plane is comprised of a chain of islands much like oceania stamped across it. There's a north and a south but an infinite east/west. And no other planets. That would be strange.

Any tips for a first-time GM? I have a few adventure ideas lined up, one shamelessly ripped from the web and some homebrew ideas as well. The campaign itself is establishing a new colony on a distant-ish island. Lots of risen and fallen civilisations over the span of millenia in the game, plenty of chance for more modern tech, but their civ is gunpowder. No steam -quite- yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 14, 2015, 05:09:35 pm

My advice would be to be ready to wing it.  Even the best prepared scenario can fall apart at short notice, so you have to be able to move the story along despite it.  Don't be afraid to say no to something (character design, unworkable plan, excessive cheese), you are the final arbiter of your game, it works according to your needs (and those of the players but you are the one who decides where the cutoff is.)  If you have to cheat, cheat in favor of the group, not against them.  Also, your setting sounds like a lot of fun, I hope you and your players enjoy yourselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 14, 2015, 05:11:32 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on July 14, 2015, 04:47:33 pm

Gonna start running my very own pathfinder game probably starting next week. the prime material plane is comprised of a chain of islands much like oceania stamped across it. There's a north and a south but an infinite east/west. And no other planets. That would be strange.

Any tips for a first-time GM? I have a few adventure ideas lined up, one shamelessly ripped from the web and some homebrew ideas as well. The campaign itself is establishing a new colony on a distant-ish island. Lots of risen and fallen civilisations over the span of millenia in the game, plenty of chance for more modern tech, but their civ is gunpowder. No steam -quite- yet.

I don't have any tips, but if it's play-by-post I'll join up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SquatchHammer on July 14, 2015, 06:16:48 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 14, 2015, 05:09:35 pm

My advice would be to be ready to wing it.  Even the best prepared scenario can fall apart at short notice, so you have to be able to move the story along despite it.  Don't be afraid to say no to something (character design, unworkable plan, excessive cheese), you are the final arbiter of your game, it works according to your needs (and those of the players but you are the one who decides where the cutoff is.)  If you have to cheat, cheat in favor of the group, not against them.  Also, your setting sounds like a lot of fun, I hope you and your players enjoy yourselves.

Pretty much what he said. Dont say yes to the group all the time. It will lead to overwhelming situations you probably didnt want in the first place or it was too soon. I only have very little experience in GMing and it can be rough but it is rewarding if you do run with it (and yes you have to be able to run with the oddities).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 14, 2015, 08:05:27 pm

I would say cheat rolls, but only to make does appear more daunting and so players don't get killed so quickly. Knocking them out is not good early on in battle because it means more death saves. That also means players can lose their character quickly. But try not to cheat rolls to have them hover at 3hp for the entire encounter.

Next thing, PLAN FAR AHEAD. Like write down and plan out your first few encounters and have one ready for the next one. This keeps it at a brisk pace that keeps less waiting involved and keeps the party's attention. don't do like my 5e DM and have nothing prepared when he wants to start an encounter and take almost a week to prepare it.

Third, know your players thouroughly. From alignments and stats to the smallest detail in their backstory. This will help you know the characters and give you ideas for quest hooks. It also tells you when you can call a player out on something they should/shouldn't do (such as feel wary around X or Y)

Fourth, don't restrict your players; and don't let them bicker out of character. If they have a problem with someone in game doing something, tell them to settle it in game. I had a player who talked all the time out of character asking in character stuff, and he always talked like: I say something to the wolf with talk to animals and ask him to tell me anything he knows about X. I told him to tell me what he said he'd say instead, because if he doesn't get a result he wanted, he would back out. Which leads me to another thing:

Fifth, don't let players act based on the roll. They roll a 2, they have to deal with it and suffer it, they can't say "oh, I'm going to stay behind because I bunked my roll", they have to go in, stealth and trip and make a loud fart or something to alert everyone.

Sixth, BE VERY CAREFUL WITH HOMEBREW. I almost caused a total party wipe in my 4e game because the final boss could gain maxHP and got stronger to the point he caused the new player to get insta killed. Same with items, and make sure if you do it, keep track of it. Rules you Homebrew should be maintained since you made or edited the rule.

Seventh, don't be afraid to push your characters in the right direction, but don't hold them by the hand. Give them a clue if they can't figure out what to do, or drop an NPC group talking about something.

Lastly: have fun. that's what it all comes down to

Hope this helps

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Glacies on July 14, 2015, 08:18:00 pm

The party is crawling a dusty tomb filled with undead. Things aren't going well for them and they get trapped in a dead end fighting skeletons. The party is still fairly relaxed and confident. One particular smart ass looks over to another player and quietly says "We won't die, he's fudging the die rolls."

I cock an eyebrow. Evil grin. Screen is lowered. Dice on the table. Then they start sweating.

They did make it out alive, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on July 14, 2015, 09:26:09 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2015, 06:17:46 pm

Guys, I very literally just effing told you not to discuss Alignment.  No alignment discussion, it's in the effing OP rules.  Don't do it again.

If I made a seperate thread specifically for alignment discussion could you put a link to it in the op?

EDIT:
This thread. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151965.msg6374167#msg6374167)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 14, 2015, 09:50:45 pm

My players are trying to continue their hunt for the werewolf.

The paladin has managed to sneak past my ideas and talks to animals all day to gather info. So far, he has gotten as much info as the bard Faen has gained lore and history of the wolf. Meanwhile, Tyson-Chan the Gnome Barbarian and Carl the DM controlled rogue take a look at the farm on the outskirts of town. The owner kindly told him to get the hell off his property and then I made a huge mistake: I forgot I told the party the farmer (this guy) had a kid, and the house is only built for one person. I had to make a quick save, but now everyone thinks he's the wolf. How they figured that out, however, was Tyson-Chan tries to bluff her way into searching for wolf prints around his land, and when the guy tells her to piss off, Carl tries to talk (me playing as I would as a player) and then Tyson-chan, completely losing it because she has no idea how to react says she is hunting the great owlbear in a Tutu. Just before the farmer chases them away with a scythe, she offers him alcohol, and he's been working now all day so he takes a drink and because of the page I use for alcohol, he drank a 13 strength alcohol at 4x strength since he downed the whole thing in one go, and has to make a con save against it. Needless to say, the guy was out like a light.

Tyson-chan then decides: I gotta do this more often. To cover it up and get some espionage going, Tyson-chan is hiding in his storage shed that isn't used right now since it's not harvest time yet, Carl puts the drink and him in his bed, and leaves a note saying "We came by to say hi, but you were sleeping."

And during this night, aka night 2/4, the party now has to deal with the one person who aboslutely detests them...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on July 14, 2015, 10:03:24 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on July 14, 2015, 08:05:27 pm

Seventh, don't be afraid to push your characters in the right direction, but don't hold them by the hand. Give them a clue if they can't figure out what to do, or drop an NPC group talking about something.

Or straight-out have the cleric's god appear to them in a dream or give them a sign something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 14, 2015, 10:41:23 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on July 14, 2015, 10:03:24 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on July 14, 2015, 08:05:27 pm

Seventh, don't be afraid to push your characters in the right direction, but don't hold them by the hand. Give them a clue if they can't figure out what to do, or drop an NPC group talking about something.

Or straight-out have the cleric's god appear to them in a dream or give them a sign something.

That too. Or have the seer see something. That works. Worse comes to worse, madmen with maps usually work

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 14, 2015, 11:07:18 pm

My advice is to have a foundation

Have cities, have primary NPCs, and have a sort of background information. Heck have impromptu dungeons prepared in advance. Just take the time to find ways to put the instant creation skills off yourself. As well this kind of information and maps also helps the players feel more there. Nothing makes a room feel more fake then there being absolutely nothing inside it except the walls.

Second is to delve right into the PC's stories, motivations, and gimmicks. The reason people play pen and paper RPGs over just RPGs is because they want to feel their input their characters changing the world their way. Take special attention to their skills and abilities and match your designs to it, make their skills seem special... to a degree.

Third is don't forget yourself. Some DMs might not feel like they need any input to feel fulfilled running a game, but if you do... do it. Put your spin on things, be creative, just don't forget to involve the PCs. Sure not all people will enjoy your game but most importantly some will and you will... and you can just find players who are fine with your style. Certainly you need to temper your creative impulses but to forget them would basically make DMing a job... and no one is paying you to do it.

Fourth: Problems happen, problem players happen. Generally speaking I go by the two retort argument limit. If someone brings up an issue and they counter argue you twice... End the argument by saying we will discuss it after the game.

Fifth: Set the mood. If you are goofing off, the players will goof off. I am extremely guilty of this when I am on voice, but you don't have to be the same. If you want the players to do some A grade roleplaying, you need to meet them halfway.

Sixth: Your going to make a lot of mistakes, you are going to have bad games, people are not going to have fun, characters are going to die, people are going to botch their roles, the world is going to end. Things happen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 14, 2015, 11:43:49 pm

Link to Bohandas' alignment thread added to OP, thanks Bohandas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 15, 2015, 12:12:25 am

I like Neon's more then mine. Mines for the rules and balence, Neon's is the fun aspect of it all

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on July 15, 2015, 01:18:25 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on July 14, 2015, 10:03:24 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on July 14, 2015, 08:05:27 pm

Seventh, don't be afraid to push your characters in the right direction, but don't hold them by the hand. Give them a clue if they can't figure out what to do, or drop an NPC group talking about something.

Or straight-out have the cleric's god appear to them in a dream or give them a sign something.

If you want your players to get something, it's best to give many clues. Three is a good rule. (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 17, 2015, 03:14:00 pm

Just had an opportunity to read that Kadz, that is a really cool essay with a lot of good points.  Thanks for digging it up to share.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 17, 2015, 07:09:20 pm

Trying to see what I can do to pump my parrot's fly skill, so that a gentle breeze won't accidentally send it careening into the wild blue yonder.

Is a +18 misc mod overkill? And does anyone know how I could buff it harder?

E: Didn't mean to post yet. Here's a modifier breakdown:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Class skill, +3
Tiny sized, +4
Good maneuverability, +4
Acrobatic feat, +2 to both fly and acrobatics
Skill Focus, +3
Griffin Mane clothing, +2

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 17, 2015, 07:17:47 pm

I've got another session with Desperate DM and the Party of Dudes tonight. Story after it develops.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 17, 2015, 08:14:06 pm

I mentioned it a few times in OOC, but my neutral evil tiefling actually bonded a bit with a leaver's paladin. Here's the gist of it:

I lead her out of town to kill her. Player has been salty about me being evil and not sharing my sheet with everyone else. So I thought: "I can justify killing her because she thinks I'm a devil worshipper and she knows buddy is a vampire and didn't act. Perfect reason for killing her: silence." I end up taking her to the river as she was supposed to be back before sundown (as promised. And the river runs through town). So I spend several times trying to get her to go near the riverside so it would be easier to push her in, steal her stuff and say owlbears attacked us and took her body away before I could get to it, with her later on in the day, her body appearing in the river and shock and horror strike everyone as she has several puncture wounds from an owlbear (as there is a problem with them and I have a beak of one) and her valuables would be taken by me and her armour would have been left in the woods.

So I had this elaborate plan, and I even brought my apprentice (long story) with me in case she starts kicking my ass. Then the unthinkable happens: in my attempts to get her to come close, she starts joking around with me and during this time, I even start Sharing backstory stuff to get her to come closer so I can kill her with my magic. Unfortunately, as a player, and as a character, I did end up caring because she was actually leaving the island we were on and probably going to die (monsters and a maelstrom stopped all passage to and from the island) and her calls on her god protecting her brought my character back to his parents who were clerics of Tempus who said the same thing when his brother came the same day to kill them as well as my brother. I immediately snap to shouting that the gods didn't save my brother when he needed them most (he was just as devout to them and was in training to become a cleric himself (my character worshipped Tempus as well, but not as much.)). This unleashed so much feeling and emotion that I couldn't bring myself to kill the paladin. So what happens? DM gives the paladin's Magic sword to my apprentice and since I have no player reason to kill her, and I acutely felt bad for doing this, I LET HER GO.

I can never hold my head high, knowing that my character for a split second, returned to his good natured roots. (In regards to my character: my character was born into a very devout family of Tempus with one troublemaker brother and one goody-two shoes brother. The goody one protected me often from the other one who hated me because he thought he was forgotten. Years later, he kills my brother when he found out that his own brother was part of a thief gang. He later slays my parents who, as I said, claimed their God would save them, and they died. I made it out alive by hiding, but then hate filled my body and I wanted revenge, and the only way to get power as fast as I needed it was to make a deal with Asmodeus to become a warlock. I ended up hunting down thief gangs and killing everyone trying to find answers, or his location, but nothing. The shadow thieves got wind of my killings, paid me for the work I did for them without asking and offered me a job as their hitman in taking out rival gangs. I accepted only to find my brother, but again, to no avail.

So how my character acts is he's a fall from grace character who is doing what he sees as good (killing criminals) in order to find his brother. But the way how he is doing it is bad (I played too much hotline maimi when I made him, so think of his killings like that, but magic instead of guns and no masks, just clever disguises). My character is busted often in his dreams by three people (another hotline Miami reference) where one is his brother in an Asmodeus worshipper' mask (rasmus), another is his mother in a Tempus worshipper's mask (don cornero) and himself behind a raven queen worshipper's mask (Richard). They all have the same personalities, and the dreams happen the same way as they do in hotline maimi, except it's D&D and Richard does it every time I either level up (as the DM put it) or when I commit a major evil act. The Raven (as I call the Richard parallel) came alone on the last one saying I'm digging a deeper grave for myself in hell when I got my pact blade. It's a different way of being conflicted with morals, but it works. The DM is also doing a great job with the dreams I have of Hell, my patron contacting me and those dreams (sadly, I get one of them every night, meaning I never get a good dream sleep)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 17, 2015, 11:03:16 pm

That's a great story highmax, thank you for sharing it with us.  I like your characterization as well (I don't really like evil characters, but well played characters are great no matter what.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 17, 2015, 11:11:36 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 17, 2015, 11:03:16 pm

That's a great story highmax, thank you for sharing it with us.  I like your characterization as well (I don't really like evil characters, but well played characters are great no matter what.)

I put a lot of detail into my characters. Sadly, a little TOO much. This is actually one of the shorter backstories I made for a character. My first character had a 6 page story with him, Olon the artificer had a 4 page one, the elf berserker had one that was 2 pages, Storm has the shortest, and then this guy with what I showed. I'm not counting ones I made for NPCs in my other games, but some of them do have some reaching stories on them (those that are recurring, etc.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 17, 2015, 11:13:09 pm

Wow. I think I've only ever come up with one character who had a story, and that was pulled out of my ass on the fly to justify my prestige class.

'Course, I stopped working on his backstory because I got distracted by birb.

Most of the time I just have stuff like "I am paladin. I hit thing with sharpened stick for God".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Tack on July 18, 2015, 12:10:39 am

Why do we need 80 different threads? I mean, DnD was 80% of the tabletop thread.
Which, after having the DnD removed from it, has died.

Now where will I post my warhammer junk?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 18, 2015, 12:19:04 am

Not sure actually. Not here though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Tack on July 18, 2015, 12:34:32 am

Thanks. I was confused for a second that the D&D and Pathfinder thread was a Miniatures thread.
Gosh I'm glad you've cleared that up for me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 18, 2015, 01:06:07 am

Well, I don't think that the Tabletop thread really died, I'm pretty sure I saw it up on the front page this week.  And I was only really trying to give people a place to discuss D&D specific stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 18, 2015, 01:10:14 am

Speaking of warhammer, I had a grey knight appear in my 4e game.

I took joy in making him go through an endless cycle of life and death as his body resists all evils, but it's the thing keeping him alive. So now that he's healed of it, he's now gone animalistic and insane. He's taking joy in killing people with his chainsword (which is a legitimate item in 4e)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 18, 2015, 08:57:33 am

Quote from: Tack on July 18, 2015, 12:10:39 am

Why do we need 80 different threads? I mean, DnD was 80% of the tabletop thread.
Which, after having the DnD removed from it, has died.

Now where will I post my warhammer junk?

I'd still enjoy your warhamner junk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 18, 2015, 09:09:28 am

Because you could be having a discussion on something about dnd in the tabletop game... and then a new pack of magic the gathering came out and derails it.

It was the reason I pretty much never post there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 18, 2015, 09:43:42 am

Yes, you've said as much at every single opportunity you've had to mention it so far.

Strangely, you were the only one bothered by it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Tack on July 18, 2015, 10:22:58 am

Quote from: scriver on July 18, 2015, 09:43:42 am

Strangely, you were the only one bothered by it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 18, 2015, 10:38:03 am

Game night tonight, looking forward to seeing my players resolve their current circumstances and getting the main show rolling again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 18, 2015, 10:40:51 am

I am starting to think Troops work much better when they are at a CR lower then the party by a large margin. At least 3 CR lower then the party.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Tack on July 18, 2015, 10:22:58 am

Quote from: scriver on July 18, 2015, 09:43:42 am

Strangely, you were the only one bothered by it.

The only one bothered by it who bothered to mention it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 18, 2015, 10:54:05 am

I believe the rule of thumb for troops/army vs individuals is average individual cr-6 but that's just from memory.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Tack on July 18, 2015, 10:55:42 am

Yeah we're currently in a mythic campaign and the GM is hard-pressed to send things against us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 18, 2015, 10:56:59 am

The rules for mythic/epic monsters are kinda lack luster and there is not very many of them all things considered.  I think at that point your only real challenge is hunting down gods/demi-gods/greater demons of hell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 18, 2015, 11:03:01 am

Quote from: kilakan on July 18, 2015, 10:56:59 am

The rules for mythic/epic monsters are kinda lack luster and there is not very many of them all things considered.  I think at that point your only real challenge is hunting down gods/demi-gods/greater demons of hell.

Kind of an understatement. The Mythic Ruleset honestly feels like "Yep these are the rules, have fun... what? You don't know how to run a mythic campaign? Well we aren't gonna tell you, or provide a ample supply of mythic encounters"

Well ok, Mythic isn't too tooo bad.

Though Psionic is this hands down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 18, 2015, 01:51:36 pm

Welp. I'll just give a brief summary of last night's session. I arrived late, but apparently all that happened was that the Tree of Life was a trap and they got swarmed with succubi and incubi (one player kept and wore a pair of their studded leather chaps), they met Lilith and the dude who really wanted a dragon instead got a homunculus that needs to be fed around 500L of human blood to become an approximation of a dragon. Oh, and when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge they got to peek at the campaign notes, but all that they remembered was that it was a mythology pileup and we're allegedly supposed to kill God. Not certain whether I believe/trust them. When I got there we were just about to enter a storm of Archer Vice references which ended with us getting off the plane in Colombia and getting slapped with bomb collars.

Two of the guys managed to finagle their way into making off with 5 kilos of coke, and they went off to do the thing to get us out of the collars, namely bombing a stadium where Rick Astley was performing for a crowd of thousands. In a tiny Colombian town. That, in turn, agitated what was apparently a giant fucking sandworm. We spent the few minutes it took for it to full rise and then slam back down onto the city shopping, looting the corpses in the collapsing stadium, and in one case siphoning off their blood. One of the party members wrapped himself in shower curtains smeared with vaseline, then later used one of those to set a trap for another party member, baited with a splatter of his own blood, two stolen gold necklaces, and a quarter-pound of coke.

I spent most of my remaining money in that town on a bulletproof vest and a rocket-pistol. Also as of next session I am apparently going to be playing a Druid instead of a Monk because "we have too many monks" (two? in a party of 6-7). Not that it makes much difference, because apparently my cyborg arm won't get its damage nerfed and Druids are houseruled as bathroom chemists, so whatever.

Anyways. We ran off into the jungle with our map to El Dorado and stumbled across a tired old logic puzzle old man trying to figure out how to get his fox, chicken, and grain across the river. That took all of five seconds to resolve, which is when one of our party members approached a chucacabra. He tried to hide in a tree and got grappled and mauled. Two more had been hidden from view as well. So yeah.

The guy who'd made the lubed shower curtains lobbed a jar of hydrochloric acid at the grappled pair and hit both, nearly killing each and knocking them out of the tree. I fired my rocket pistol at the nearest to find out what it did, exactly. As it turns out, 2d12+6 in a 15' AoE. I missed. The firearm houserules the guy cooked up for missed shots set up a 20-section line between the shooter and the target, then you roll D20 to find out where the shots land. Meh.

So, I missed. I was also in the back of the party. That shot barely went 5', everyone got splashed. Yeah. Then it was the chupacabras' turn. They were houseruled monstrosities with, among other things, a life-draining attack. So the one that got burned with acid was back up to full. A length clusterfuck of a fight later, I and the Cleric managed to put one down for good and the other two damaged ones failed their morale check and ran. In a rare show of party solidarity everyone who was downed got healed, and the only other thing that happened was that the Cleric stole a book from the guy who triggered the ambush (who had stolen it from another party member who had acquired it from the Cleric). The Cleric's been TN since he helped the party's CE Antipaladin (the guy feeding blood to the homunculus) rob a bank, by the by.

That's all. No more sessions for a while, either. I have no words.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 18, 2015, 09:17:24 pm

Had a game tonight. In summary, everyone WTF'd at my parrot, and my skeleton naga finally died.

We went to an island to find information on an unusual ship, and got the information after coercing/making a deal with a resident to share a bit of loot. Though we had to first find a ring that we could use to help locate the ship. When we found the ring, it was in the possession of an independent pirate captain. As he was not a part of the free-captains, we opted to just ram his ship and stab him in the face, as there would be no repercussions.

Using the ring, we were able to tell that the ship we were looking for had sunk, and we had to dive. No problem, as we have ways to avoid drowning. The damage from diving too deep wasn't a problem either, as we were able to make all our fortitude saves. Though there was a fair bit of fighting. My naga got dropped to half when our magus blew a spell, and just about cut the naga in half. The DM was happy about it, at least, since the naga was a pain in the ass. Once I learned this, I stopped going out of my way to keep it fully healed.

Though I blew all my fourth-level spells for the day trying to charm things. I charmed a shark, only for it to immediately get killed. I tried to charm a giant jellyfish, only to discover it was mindless. I tried to charm an aberration, only for it to fizzle because the aberration was already dominated by something else. Finally, I tried to charm an aboleth, which had a pretty good Will save. We got it to fairly low health, and I was told by others in the group to animate it as an undead. The DM noped the aboleth the fuck out of there once he heard that. It burst down a section of wall in the sunken ship and sped off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 18, 2015, 09:34:04 pm

Sounds like my current DM when I keep talking to him in RL. He freaks out when I tell him something that I want to do, so I stopped telling him. Now he's praising me about this child kidnapping fiasco where I look like a hero because I kept he thieves alive while the other party members are probably going to kill them. One of them is currently beating the shit out of two of them and they're scared of him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 18, 2015, 10:02:59 pm

Naw, this DM just reacts that way to stuff that would throw the game well out of balance.

An aboleth corpse on a leash would be a lot worse than that naga was ever capable of. And my parrot was able to one-shot a mini-boss in one encounter.

The scout archetype allows rogues to deal sneak attacks against opponents as if they were considered flat-footed when they charge. At level 8 they can do that if they move at least 10 feet before they attack, which is good for spring-attack/flyby attackers. So that's 4d6. Plus it uses its dex to damage since it is a rogue, and it only has one attack, so that damage gets to deal 1.5x damage instead of just the flat modifier, which is 1d4+7. Plus the rogue talent 'flying stunt', which allows a rogue that charges from the air or from higher ground to make a fly check against the opponent's CMD in order to deal their dexterity modifier as additional precision damage, which is 5 at the moment. Plus Bleeding Attack, a rogue talent that adds an amount of bleed damage every round until healed equal to the amount of dice you use when you sneak attack, which is 4. And finally, Piranha Strike, which is like Power Attack for Weapon Finesse users, which at level 7 is another 4 damage.

A quick breakdown:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sneak Attack 4d6
Bleeding Attack 4
Bite 1d4 + 7
Flying Stunt 5
Piranha Strike 4

Minimum 25
Maximum 48

Not bad for a single attack, but actually a bit less than I thought.

Though this bird's real strength is its intelligence. Skills for days. I'm only going to use him as an "oh shit" button of sorts, when we encounter something that no-one else can deal with. For an example from just this session, we encountered a locked casket, and no-one has disable device. Except old Rot Gut. So we brought it up onto our ship, and let the parrot go at the lock with his little tictac-sized thieves' tools.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 18, 2015, 10:05:52 pm

And yet the Cavalier in my game kicks that thing's butt with a typical attack of 6d4+57 or the much more likely 2d10+38

I am thinking of an evil plan.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 18, 2015, 11:25:27 pm

In my pathfinder game, I have to have sheets for 8 characters, because the DM doesn't want to make the sheets for my character's brothers who I team up with every now and then.

My main guy is the youngest son in his family, a ranger who plays and acts like a barbarian, named Varg (he's known as The Viking)

The next is Erik, the quiet archer ranger who fears his own death and hunts his troublemaking brother after a crime he committed in the army.

Ragnvald is the cavalier that fights in Odin's name. He also has arguments with his brothers over his conviction and faith.

Haldor quit the military life when he was a monk. He still practices but only for showmanship and sporting events. After many years of abandoning his family, Varg has rekindled their bonds as brothers when, after so long, he learned of his brother's death (Aesgir, who is excluded from this list)

Loke (pronounced like Loki) is a slayer who in a fit of his proud honour, slew several of his own allies in an act of proving he was the best fighter. He is now hidden in orcish territory, fighting off both his own former army and the orcs.

Vilhem is a monk who gave up fighting after witnessing horrors as a mercenary. He is the only gun user other than Varg, and is a gunslinger himself. He argues with Ragnvald often because he openly worships a non-Norse diety. He is currently at home assisting his wounded brother and his aging parents

Ulrik is the second-born child of the family and works as a blacksmith for the army. Being a magus, he is the only one of his family who studied magic at all, and he is the least experienced in combat compared to his brothers.

Leif is the eldest child and is facing reality that he may die and is abandoning hope. He was a fighter before he got wounded and complains. His confidence is shot and his wounds won't heal properly until a healer comes and finds something to fully heal him, as he was only patched with field dressing that did not make his wounds better.

I joked with another player that if my character succeeds in reuniting his family, his brothers would aid in fighting the other player's brothers who are the equivalent of Davy Jones in this world (they man a ship that is known to be a ghost ship that slaughters everyone they cross with. They hunt their brother as well to end their bloodline. His backstory and character is heavily based on Natuto mind you)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Cryxis, Prince of Doom on July 18, 2015, 11:36:38 pm

In a pathfinder game one of my friends got stuck under some rubble from the collapsing structure. After several attempts to escape and beginning to get injured is finaly ran back, pulled him out on one tey, stuffed him in my bag and booked it to the exit. He wasn't very apreciative that I rescued him and kept him from getting trapped again

((PTW))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SquatchHammer on July 19, 2015, 01:06:53 am

He had linked up time with certain periods of events entangled together to make a horrifically awesome levels of a massive world shaking and ending kind of campaign. At the moment there was a huge incarnation event that is the signal of something big is in motion much like the last two that had happened during the whole gaming campaign and I was a fool for not really paying attention, also not having the confidence in my logic to say anything ( if any of you noticed, my confidence levels in myself is practically as existent). In all and it is a fun game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 06:55:22 am

Quote from: Neonivek on July 18, 2015, 10:05:52 pm

And yet the Cavalier in my game kicks that thing's butt with a typical attack of 6d4+57 or the much more likely 2d10+38

I am thinking of an evil plan.

It's not quite that high... for our level it's high but yeah.  On that note I wonder how you are gonna cope with me now bypassing everything but epic level dr hahaha.

Our team is basically team glass cannon, everyone can do a ton of damage (except the bird woman but her player is almost never here.) and we all have very low health/ac.  I should probably buy some platemail now that I am thinking about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2015, 07:09:21 am

I admit I have a hard time balancing things for you guys.

I just about am at the point where I might as well make the monsters for you guys to fight wholesale.

Though as for damage reduction. I actually was selecting monsters based on how appropriate they were for the place. I just seem to have a tendency to pick good combinations against the party.

Though I often have a bad tendency to forget to set up monsters appropriately... Such as having those fliers already on the ceiling or inside those holes... and having the demon already used his summoning from your "Not at all silent" movement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 07:15:32 am

Something between the kobold army and the flesh dogs we fought would be nice, 4-6 enemies that are strong but not full on immune would be nice.  Both me and vacio were discussing how choosing poisons/disability hexs for level 5 characters seemed like a bad idea since all we are running into (for the most part, thank god that demi-god wasn't immune to stat damage) are immune to those things.

It is part of the problem with pathfinder all things considered, if your party isn't well balanced you are just gonna run into a lot of things that the fight will boil down to 'Dear god please let me crit cause if I don't we all die.'  Though I will have to remember that tag-team combat style me and Nasir used because otherwise I would of been very dead, lambert probably would of died since we couldn't of dealt enough damage fast enough, and then vicdra may have gone down as she can't affect constructs.

We do also need to be a bit smarter, 10 sessions in and only now have we bought a cure light wounds wand hahaa.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2015, 07:20:58 am

The issue is just how the game balances encounters.

Anything that would stand up to you hitting it, hits back hard.

Anything too low cannot hit you... and you are so fragile that guaranteed hits whittle you down. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on July 19, 2015, 07:38:19 am

oh, come on. It was just a 2d4+19!

(also, +6 comes from my cgallenge class feature, which I can only use twice per day. the rest is strength, plus wielding 2 handed, plus always power attacking)

and I still haven't had a chance to properly charge anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 08:38:56 am

Also paladins when fighting their favoured enemies do like double what you are doing.  Smite evil is like challenge on steroids.

As for things that could stand up to us hitting them, slimes, high ac creatures and high hp creatures are all things we could fight that would be dangerous but not 'kill you in two hits' dangerous.

Like a level 8 fighter who is plate mail/heavy shield would still hit decently hard  (probably use feats like disarm, trip and what not) without one/two shotting us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Naryar on July 19, 2015, 08:51:54 am

i think neonivek needs to be exposed to level 20 cleric shenanigans...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 08:54:08 am

level 20 _insert class here_ schenangins in general are silly.  Level 20 slayers get insta kill anytime they strike an declared target flat footed OR they crit them.  Death effects in general for rogue/ranger/archer classes are often hilariously adept at making gm's red faced.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2015, 12:19:33 pm

Quote from: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 08:38:56 am

As for things that could stand up to us hitting them, slimes, high ac creatures and high hp creatures are all things we could fight that would be dangerous but not 'kill you in two hits' dangerous.

Believe it or not you kind of killed that curve to death because well... That was a high HP and high AC enemy and that is as high as it goes at your CR... and it hits back hard!

The game doesn't really do fleshwalls.

But fine I'll be creative... I'll get out some of my... more interesting books. *laughs maniacally*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 19, 2015, 01:41:49 pm

My game had guys who were dead accurate and hard hitters. So I made a guy to fight them with 600+hp. He lasted only 4 rounds, but still 4 rounds more than the other bosses

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 01:46:59 pm

yeah doubling or tripling an enemy's hp is decent for making a boss.  Just as long as he isn't also a -one shot the pc's- type dude.

Also that demon fight would of gone more interestingly if they had gotten summons, boss with a couple lackies is always a nice fight.  so far it seems to be consistantly 1-2 really rediculously strong creatures alone or ton and tons of weak dudes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2015, 01:47:52 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on July 19, 2015, 01:41:49 pm

My game had guys who were dead accurate and hard hitters. So I made a guy to fight them with 600+hp. He lasted only 4 rounds, but still 4 rounds more than the other bosses

Yeah I am dreading making enemies from scratch as default :P

Quote from: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 01:46:59 pm

yeah doubling or tripling an enemy's hp is decent for making a boss.  Just as long as he isn't also a -one shot the pc's- type dude.

Also that demon fight would of gone more interestingly if they had gotten summons, boss with a couple lackies is always a nice fight.  so far it seems to be consistantly 1-2 really rediculously strong creatures alone or ton and tons of weak dudes.

Yeah...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 19, 2015, 02:19:27 pm

Throw in a couple of meaty healers too, it can help prolong things and make a non-challenging fight more engaging.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 19, 2015, 06:01:46 pm

^That right there is good advice. If you need something to make a boss fight more difficult and don't want to just buff the boss, there's a couple core options. As above, add healers that can't be instantly gibbed (IIRC the first Seymour fight in FFX was a good example of this at work). Add ranged enemies that aren't immediately in reach, enough that the party's ranged PCs can't wipe them in a turn or two. Add environmental hazards and give the boss a way to knock/push/force players into them. Add an environmental element that splits the party up and forces some to hold out against the boss while the others clear minions and try to get to them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 19, 2015, 07:45:51 pm

I had him + an enemy party but the party insta killed him in his spell faster form by pushing him into lava. The enemy party died in two turns.

He was a hard hitter, but he only got to attack once. And it was a 4d12+4 attack, and I crit on someone who I really wanted to leave because he never posted and never bothered to do anything unless I texted/called him to post

The thing was why he didn't have any more followers was because the storyline went that he is controlling the shadows that kept his followers alive and in his power. He drained their power into his shadow colossus form to grow stronger and he gained max HP because he was building a new body and getting stronger as his body grew to a 5x5 monster that could move though enemies and damage them because he phased through them with a body made up of small creatures that slashed at you when he phased through.

He had only basic Melee attacks after that daily, but he could strike twice. And they were 2d6+8 attacks that were inaccurate. He also had a second action point he didn't use

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 19, 2015, 07:46:42 pm

Goodness I really need to get over my nervousness problem... but I think I did alright this session all things considered, under prepared, sleep deprived, and hazy.

But in today's session I spelled a NPCs name differently every single time. Herbert Herburt Huburt Hobert Hurkber... it just kept going.

I needed to roll with the punches a little, but honestly I didn't want to add too much details to things. Sometimes a rock is just a rock even if a giant threw it.

The Pathfinder one had problems mostly because I was disheartened from the last session being ended early because all my encounters would have rocked the group and I dislike reaching for monsters during a session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 19, 2015, 07:54:58 pm

It was hilariously fun, though 'roll with the punches' makes me feel bad, no punches were intended merely sillyness.

Regardless today I learned that cantrips in dnd 5e are hilariously overpowered, and that asking someone else to roll a character for you results in a very strange roleplay existance that I realized halfway through I had no real idea what the race I was playing was.

Thought svirfneblin were evil cannibal gnomes and played as an eccentric wizard one, learned after I was already in the swing of being a midget psychopath with magic that my thoughts on their race were not correct.  Meh

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 20, 2015, 12:45:13 am

Eeh. 5e cantrips aren't so much OP as "where they bloody well should have been," especially with the usual higher level caster shenanigans locked down.

I mean, Fire Bolt is a bit good, but it's fundamentally similar to plinking with a handxbow, except that it feels more magical. At-will Light, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, &c. should have been in a long time ago. At least the old version of Minor Illusion got nerfed, because that was pretty borked.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 20, 2015, 02:08:21 am

The utility cantrips might be improved, but the combat cantrips are definitely OP. Damage like the best one-handed martial weapons, longer reach than every ranged weapon except longbows, elemental damage, no ammunition, improves in damage dice faster than a Fighter gets more attacks, can't be disarmed, and so forth. A better balanced combat cantrip would only do d4 or d6 damage or require the carter to get into the thick of battle to cast it. d10 damage at longer range than a crossbow is high enough to be spell worthy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2015, 02:27:02 am

Its major weakness is that for the most part that d10 is all it is going to get unless the class gets something that allows them to apply more damage to it.

Whereas anyone who uses a dex score can turn that crossbow into a damage machine.

Mind you Crossbows are hit pretty hard with the "not very useful" stick... but I guess given their real life counterpart that makes sense. They are meant for low level characters until they graduate to the bow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 20, 2015, 02:29:46 am

The funny thing is taking 2 levels in Warlock with a character that has has high charisma anyway and getting their Agonizing Blast Invocation (+ the other you get which can be anything you feel like.)

Eldritch Blast is a cantrip with a range of 120 FT (or 24 squares) and does 1d10 force damage. Over the levels it improves by adding in more attacks per cast (it shoots off 4 beams in the end, each one can target a different enemy or the same one, separate attack rolls. Each hit adds that modifier.)

The hilarious thing is that, as far as I am aware, cantrips improve with character level, not class level.

So, 4d10 + 4X (where X is your charisma modifier) damage, if you manage to hit all of them. (Since it's multiple attacks it makes them weaker on a crit but more consistent.)

Quite excellent on a character that otherwise has no good ranged options (and a bit unfortunate for the warlock since it appears Eldritch Blast was meant to be their 'thing', and you get access to its full power with just two levels.) Ultimately it's player choice as to what you'd prefer, but... The choice is there. (I know I'd consider taking it if I was a monk, even without the modifier the ranged capability is quite nice. If you're a shadow monk, also picking up the super darkvision is extremely useful as well as thematic.)

Honestly, it's almost like they intended the Warlock to be something people dabbled in, since they have some good utility stuff at level 2. (Monk's level 19 and 20 are terrible anyway.)

And yeah, some of the utility cantrips need improvement. Some like Mending I can really only ever see being useful in a campaign where there's a large focus on equipment wear and tear, and even then...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2015, 02:37:43 am

Quote

The hilarious thing is that, as far as I am aware, cantrips improve with character level, not class level.

They did this mostly to improve multiclassing, especially with caster classes involved. There are rules on how spellcasting changes of you are multiclassing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 20, 2015, 02:47:50 am

Quote from: Neonivek on July 20, 2015, 02:27:02 am

Its major weakness is that for the most part that d10 is all it is going to get unless the class gets something that allows them to apply more damage to it.

Whereas anyone who uses a dex score can turn that crossbow into a damage machine.

This, pretty much. The only build that improves it beyond 1d10 direct damage is going to have much better options for blasting. If you're in it for optimizing and want a cheap ranged attack UXLZ already underlined the typical method.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 20, 2015, 03:40:49 am

Moved discussion back from the story thread. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145467.msg6384801#msg6384801)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 20, 2015, 02:45:22 pm

So in my current campaign the third major 'event' has occurred, and my players failed to pick up on it, so I actually had to inform them that there was more going on than they were realizing (I'd have thought that the blatant 'apocalypse prophecy' that has popped up several times would have been more important to them, live and learn.)  Other than that things are going well, the major stumbling block to the team 'leader' courting the queen is about to be removed, the twitty thief has realized there is more to life than petty theft and is now in position to actually facilitate some important story stuff, and the paladin hasn't had any real problems getting into his role in all of this, but he hasn't yet found out what his real purpose is.  All told things are moving towards the meat of the content I've got, we'll see how long things stay on course, or if they decide to go off on some random tangent, either way things are in motion that cannot be stopped.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 20, 2015, 03:36:01 pm

Pathfinder game had my party dealing with catfolk that are stereotypical Italian mobsters. I also realized looking like a Viking makes me stick out like a sore thumb amongst a lot of people wearing suits.

Also what is a Poe like? (Spelled police) like guards apparently but get paid to do sh%#, as the officer told me.

I also apparently slashed a high end mobster with flametongue and my sunblade. And proceeded to get shot six times

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 21, 2015, 06:57:07 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 20, 2015, 02:45:22 pm

So in my current campaign the third major 'event' has occurred, and my players failed to pick up on it, so I actually had to inform them that there was more going on than they were realizing (I'd have thought that the blatant 'apocalypse prophecy' that has popped up several times would have been more important to them, live and learn.)  Other than that things are going well, the major stumbling block to the team 'leader' courting the queen is about to be removed, the twitty thief has realized there is more to life than petty theft and is now in position to actually facilitate some important story stuff, and the paladin hasn't had any real problems getting into his role in all of this, but he hasn't yet found out what his real purpose is.  All told things are moving towards the meat of the content I've got, we'll see how long things stay on course, or if they decide to go off on some random tangent, either way things are in motion that cannot be stopped.

Do you ever host games online NFO? 'Cause they definitely sound like ones I'd be interested in joining. = \

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 21, 2015, 09:50:26 am

Unfortunately no, I'm leery of running a game over the network.  I really like to have my players right at the table, where the focus is nice and tight and the action is front-stage.  I might consider it in the future sometime tho'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 21, 2015, 09:54:35 am

If we're speaking play-by-post, it allows for vastly superior role-playing, but can take a fair amount of time. However, rather than having burst sessions every week or so, it allows for stuff to happen as a slow trickle (thus also giving the DM more capability for on-the-fly planning and creativity, since it's not actually "on-the-fly.")
Characters can have portraits as well, I guess, which is nice.

Though, yeah, online stuff probably should have more of a focus on story and roleplaying rather than battles, since they can be... Quite long.

 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 21, 2015, 10:08:38 am

Well, that's an opinion certainly, but I have found over the years that I have played and run that being at the table has a positive impact on the group as a whole, and leads to tighter focus.  I'm also really good at on the fly, to the point that I have no set in stone elements in my game other than basic history and geography.  Slow paced games are anathema to my style, as I do my best work in the moment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 21, 2015, 10:42:11 am

It depends heavily on the group, as well. My own tend to be quite large and end up being social gatherings with DnD in the background, rather than vice versa, though there isn't any real issue with that. They're very unfocused. Conversely, my experiences online have allowed me to roleplay very closely to what I want the character to actually be.
Your group probably just takes stuff a bit more seriously than mine, which leads to our difference in experience.

Ah, a good advantage of play-by-post is the capability for multi-focus. You can have the thief sneak off into the king's castle to try and grab some loot, the assassin complete a contract on a local crimelord, and the wizard research spells in an inn all at the same time. That is, agency. Now, with a group like yours, that might be possible, but in something like mine where there's probably an overt number of people, and they're unfocused generally to boot, it's impossible. The party has to move as one, and individuals rarely get a chance to shine or use their less generic battle orientated skills.

There's the option of real-time stuff using something like Maptool, but then you get issues with conflicting schedules and stuff due to people being all over the world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 21, 2015, 11:00:21 am

So my party's bard just became a werewolf willingly. Now they have to fight a werebear

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 21, 2015, 11:21:03 am

Quote from: highmax28 on July 21, 2015, 11:00:21 am

So my party's bard just became a werewolf willingly. Now they have to fight a werebear

I no longer can even imagine what sort of world you are playing in when you went from getting shot by cat gangsters to fighting werebear via application of singing werewolf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 21, 2015, 01:27:42 pm

The shot was pathfinder where I'm a player. Our captain for the ship we're using is a human werewolf gunslinger to be fair.

No, the werewolf and werebear is in my 5e game that I DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 21, 2015, 02:43:27 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 21, 2015, 10:08:38 am

Well, that's an opinion certainly, but I have found over the years that I have played and run that being at the table has a positive impact on the group as a whole, and leads to tighter focus.  I'm also really good at on the fly, to the point that I have no set in stone elements in my game other than basic history and geography.  Slow paced games are anathema to my style, as I do my best work in the moment.

From my observations PbP games are usually only slow-paced when the DM gets bored or disappears for days at a time, and when the players aren't selected carefully enough (aka you get jokers who delay the game because they only check the thread when someone PMs them).

You're still not going to match the pace you can set at the table, and you have to be ready to push things along (in part because there are people who will sit around talking IC for days if you let them), but as long as you've got a small party of no more than 4-5 active players you can move quickly. Combat is still the most time-consuming thing, natch, especially when the DM has to make all of the rolls because the players are new or the DM doesn't trust them enough to let them use InvisibleCastle (or InvisibleCastle is down for a month  ::)).

Actually, one of the biggest problems is that there's no integrated diceroll mechanic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 21, 2015, 02:46:06 pm

You can still run into issues with timezones, though. If one person's away while everyone else is there, they either have to give permission for their character to be auto'd or you only get one turn of combat done per day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 21, 2015, 03:03:07 pm

My 4e game I believe is going onto its second year come December. I've been having problems recently and I can't post because a waitlister is being a shitbag right now and I had RL issues a few times.

I keep a very tight ship though. If someone doesn't post often, I will harass the player to either quit or try to put more effort into it. I haven't run into a player who fucks around too much yet, but I would warn them doing so

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on July 21, 2015, 04:01:16 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on July 20, 2015, 03:36:01 pm

Pathfinder game had my party dealing with catfolk that are stereotypical Italian mobsters. I also realized looking like a Viking makes me stick out like a sore thumb amongst a lot of people wearing suits.

Also what is a Poe like? (Spelled police) like guards apparently but get paid to do sh%#, as the officer told me.

I also apparently slashed a high end mobster with flametongue and my sunblade. And proceeded to get shot six times

Your game sounds really cool!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 21, 2015, 04:41:53 pm

Its my buddy who's running it. Guy's a legend at DMing.

THIS GUY MADE A CAMPAIGN BASED ON FIVE NIGHTS AT FREDDIE'S AND HE ACTUALLY SCARED THE UNSHAKABLE META GAMER. And everyone else who was playing.

Then he has piracy combat that works magnificently. All battles of morale, so you don't need to kill everyone.

And then he made his own world where its all thrown together? And every place is diverse but has a real world equivalent? And elves have german accents? Its awesome!



Also, I rolled to see what race my character has a thing for... And I rolled halflings... So for the next campaign, if I have time before this epic climatic duel with my character's backstory nemesis, my character is going to run to one of the brothels and ask for halflings. I guess he likes the short folk... Do note I tried to make it so it was with a race he was familiar with, but halflings, dwarves and humans are common in his homeland, and elves are rarely seen in his home (too damn cold). I even asked my DM if there was any halflings even in the area and he told me there are, so I can't say I never saw a halfling in my life. So next session, I'm whipping out the chaotic neutral in me to do some things that I need to do before I die.

I'm expecting my character to get his ass handed to him though. The artifact that the orc he's hunting is wearing gives him a +8 to Strength or Con (whichever it is, I need to make use of my 4 attacks as a two-weapon ranger). I would have asked to borrow the item that gives +8 to dex to counter it, but I don't want the person who hired us to get it to get mad if I get killed and the item is stolen.

Did I mention that we're retrieving the armor of a king that was supposed to ascend to godhood? And our employer is an older indiana jones pretty much? Yeah, every time he does something that involves him doing stuff in the field, we play his theme song.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 24, 2015, 12:41:05 am

Finally managed to make a character sheet that is actually legible once printed. Made a bunch of extra characters for whenever a new campaign starts up.

So far I have a half-orc barbarian with a pet bull, a tiefling inquisitor of Desna with a roc companion, because vermin companions kind of suck, and a muscle-wizard aasimar monk. All of which are at level five, made with 35 point-buy.

Still not a big fan of point-buy though. It's just fairer to use it than to roll for stats in private.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 24, 2015, 01:58:29 pm

So some people always ask if they can play an evil character... and here is my drawn up rules for playing one
-----------------------------------------

Evil characters NEED to be tempered by common sense, self-preservation, and morals.

They need attachments and obligations.

A evil character without all of those will never be a PC

-----

Oddly enough most players who want to play an evil character who look at this... decide not to.

It is almost like people want to play evil characters to not have any morals, obligations, or anything that prevents them from just flat out killing people other than outright force... rather than to play an actual character :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 24, 2015, 06:41:02 pm

PPE: NOPE NOT GONNA DO IT NOT DEBATING ALIGNMENT HAHA SORRY.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 24, 2015, 08:53:33 pm

Well it isn't about alignment as in "What makes an alignment" this is about what makes a decent character that can be run in a setting.

A totally immoral character with no real connections, liabilities, or anything... Is a psychopath.

Sure Order of the Stick had Balker and he was "evil", but he was a kind of evil that could be directed and he definitely had some morals or inklings not to go around killing random people.

People just want to play the game's secret villain... but if they want to be the secret villain then just ask me if they can be the secret villain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 24, 2015, 10:08:02 pm

Crossposting from this to alignment thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on July 25, 2015, 12:15:16 am

Quote from: Tack on July 18, 2015, 12:10:39 am

Why do we need 80 different threads? I mean, DnD was 80% of the tabletop thread.
Which, after having the DnD removed from it, has died.

Now where will I post my warhammer junk?

Agreed. Despite having no interest in TCGs or w/e I really don't see any need for a separate thread.
Oh well, this seems to be here to stay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 25, 2015, 02:44:32 am

Sorry guys but we just don't like your MTG Thread with guest appearance from DND.

And before you defend it Yoink, may I just say... Let the post count speak for itself. If it was completely superfluous then the threads would have died.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 25, 2015, 03:06:21 am

No attitude guys, I understand that the tabletop thread was handling the load before, but conversation was spilling into other areas, I was just setting up a place for it to progress without interruption.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 25, 2015, 05:34:23 am

Quote from: Neonivek on July 25, 2015, 02:44:32 am

Sorry guys but I just don't like your MTG Thread with guest appearance from DND.

Fixed that for you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 25, 2015, 05:40:35 am

I thought the old thread was dominated by DND...  The point is there's more than enough discussion for a dedicated DND thread, so splitting it off was a good idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 25, 2015, 03:19:17 pm

Yeah, it's not like you can't post in the TTG thread just because it's been dormant for a week or two.  ::)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 25, 2015, 09:12:47 pm

Had another game tonight. One member couldn't show up, so we just went with a little side-game for the day.

I swapped out my archer fighter for a sacred huntmaster inquisitor of Desna, focusing on throwing star-knives. Though at level 5, I'm not particularly good at it. My animal companion is a roc. Flavoured as a giant butterfly. Confusing as hell, but hey, it's funny. And thematic.

I chose to reskin the roc because of an alternate ruling for worshipers of Desna that allow them to use Summon Monster III to summon a giant monarch, with a note next to the ruling saying that the monarch uses the stats of a giant eagle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 25, 2015, 09:32:56 pm

This damn arrow... and the insanity that it actually landed.

So there was this Fairy Dragon 135 feet away, past a cloud of fog, that was invisible, flying, and had perfect silent flight...

And he still managed to make the perception check to strike it down.

---

Oddly enough a player asked why he still needs to roll total concealment if he knows where it is.

The reasoning I gave him is because he might have an idea where it is, but it can still move around and isn't a stationary target.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 25, 2015, 09:59:22 pm

Hehe, "What do your dwarf eyes see?"

My unsaid response was "That fuckin' fairy!"

And then I fumbled on the last stride and only hit one of my shots, and rolled minimum damage on that. But yeah, +21 Per and a natural 20 on the check, that was pretty crazy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 26, 2015, 12:14:36 am

So this 5e game on bay12 I'm playing on has the most fucked up system of law I have ever seen in any game.

If you're charged with theft, and found guilty, death penalty.

If you're part of a crime organization and caught being part of one but have not done anything wrong yet in this town, you're free to go.

If you openly admit to being part of a crime group and admit that you tried to kidnap a child, but don't actually have the child, you're free to go.

If you're a red tiefling and you're the only one in the area, it's ok to shoot him because he's a red tiefling on a wanted poster that isn't even for this town or this continent.

If you're a guardsman, you can kill anyone as long as you have proper reason for it. Even if they are proven innocent or free to go.


And this is why I now want to take over the city. My first priority is to frame the guards by using disguise self to do open crimes to look like I'm abusing the guards power. Through this, I plan on having the nobles and the council and the mayor look awful because they let shit like this happen.

Step 2 involves either taking power by politically asserting myself into the system by harassing the nobles and whatnot with the above and gain followers (aka cannon fodder) who are victims of the "guard abuse".

Step 3 has me making a last attempt to have some of the nobles and/or councilmen and/or the mayor side with me and overthrow/kill the others. Replace them with party members or NPC allies.

Step 4 has myself establishing full dominance as I kill/drive off the other nobles who aren't party members or NPC allies and fully establish control.

Step 5 is to enlist a new town guard and everyone who was a guard previously is executed for misuse of power.

Ste 6 is to sell the town if I can, else I let other party members handle it once the old guard is all but a memory.

Step 7 is to bask in the glory of a PROPER justice system that will probably arrest me properly for knowing my affiliation with the shadow thieves. And then proceed to break out of jail because I'll be that high of a level by then

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 26, 2015, 12:20:48 am

Quote from: highmax28 on July 26, 2015, 12:14:36 am

So this 5e game on bay12 I'm playing on has the most fucked up system of law I have ever seen in any game.

If you're charged with theft, and found guilty, death penalty.

If you're part of a crime organization and caught being part of one but have not done anything wrong yet in this town, you're free to go.

If you openly admit to being part of a crime group and admit that you tried to kidnap a child, but don't actually have the child, you're free to go.

If you're a red tiefling and you're the only one in the area, it's ok to shoot him because he's a red tiefling on a wanted poster that isn't even for this town or this continent.

If you're a guardsman, you can kill anyone as long as you have proper reason for it. Even if they are proven innocent or free to go.

This isn't far fetched unfortunately...

It is a system of law where "attempted" isn't a criminal offense and where the law is absolutely corrupt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on July 26, 2015, 12:22:20 am

What accounts for 'proper reason'?
Is it something like 'I was annoyed by this person'?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 26, 2015, 12:27:21 am

Quote from: Execute/Dumbo.exe on July 26, 2015, 12:22:20 am

What accounts for 'proper reason'?
Is it something like 'I was annoyed by this person'?

It usually happens in a place where all the guards "look out for one another" and thusly they can just make up good reasons or just say "They looked suspicious and when I asked if they were up to something they attacked" even if it was an outright lie.

Japan has had law systems that outright broken before... But that is because Japan historically was an incredibly elitist society that legalized tyranny towards the lower castes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 26, 2015, 12:30:06 am

Considering their captain of the guard just tried to rip me a new one because I told him I'm stopping some child abductors because I'm "taking the law into my own hands" when I'm capturing them, and the FUCKINNG GUARDS COME AND KILL TWO PEOPLE FOR NO REASON, this place is fucked beyond beleif

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 26, 2015, 07:34:30 am

...For the record, I completely support that plan of take-over. The Justice system is that stupid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 26, 2015, 07:11:56 pm

Is there a way to anti-burn yourself out as a GM?

I've been fighting some rather painful burn out from these games for a bit...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 26, 2015, 07:28:48 pm

I mean, there's the obvious one of finding a way to make it fun for you rather than a chore.

But frankly I think everyone hits that point, there's always something that kills the enjoyment, and there are many more things that can do that to a DM than to a player.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 26, 2015, 07:41:49 pm

How do you feel about plot twists? Opinion on how to do them well?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 26, 2015, 08:45:57 pm

For an example, would you kindly?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on July 26, 2015, 10:05:39 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 26, 2015, 07:11:56 pm

Is there a way to anti-burn yourself out as a GM?

I've been fighting some rather painful burn out from these games for a bit...

What if you temporarily switched to a less rules and preparation heavy game like Toon or something

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 26, 2015, 10:43:39 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on July 26, 2015, 10:05:39 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 26, 2015, 07:11:56 pm

Is there a way to anti-burn yourself out as a GM?

I've been fighting some rather painful burn out from these games for a bit...

What if you temporarily switched to a less rules and preparation heavy game like Toon or something

Or Cards Against Humanity.

Not even kidding, either, it's a great contra-RPG game in just about every way, but still appeals to the same audience. All it's missing is a Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail cardset.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 26, 2015, 11:04:42 pm

My feeling is that plot twists have to be organic, it has to feel like it actually makes sense.  You can't just go, 'It was really the barkeeper all the time!' if he/she didn't play any meaningful role up to that point.  To make a plot twist usable and good for the story it needs to be someone who isn't the obvious choice, but has had reasonable and (in hindsight) trackable access to everything going on.

Neo, my advice about burnout is this:  If you've reached the point where the game isn't fun, but you want to continue, do a cannonball (AKA a one-shot), or three, or more, until you feel like you can get back to the real game.  That way you can exercise your creativity without being restricted by the main game, and you and your players can still have some fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 26, 2015, 11:47:04 pm

I'm having a bit of a problem myself right now with my RL campaign and its that I've got an awful case of writers block for making campaigns. I just did one I've been wanting to do and I just don't have the time to make a bigger dungeon for the party to handle right now.

I have an idea for a campaign to kill time, and I'll have time after, but its very lackluster.

The basis is this is my own custom world. The tieflings and gnomes hate eachother and are in a constant state of war. At this point, they're at war, but the other nations refuse to join in. A group of gnomes wearing animal masks are going around in the southern regions of the continent the party is on and slaughtering tieflings in holds as sort of a guerrilla warfare tactic (even though they aren't part of the army at all).

So a bunch of tieflings are hunting them down but tracked them north. One of my party members, dear old Tyson-Chan, is a gnome who has an animal mask they identify as one of them. However, she isn't one of the ones they're looking for, but they don't know that so they kidnap her and interrogate her, and the party has to go save the barbarian from a race she absolutely hates.

Sadly, this seems VERY lackluster for a 4th level encounter. I'm guessing a lot of stealth will be involved, but definatley a lot of combat towards the end.

The party consists of one under leveled half-elf paladin (still level 3 at the end of the next encounter), one level 4 werewolf high elf bard, one level 4 half-elf sorcerer, one level 4 barbarian gnome and one level 4 monk or a level 4 rogue (party decides).

Is this a good idea of a hastily made session? I haven't had much time to make campaigns as I had the last few weeks dedicated to schoolwork, work and rehab meetings

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 01:25:55 am

There are just so many forms Plottwists can take

To admit dungeons and dragons is a piece of fiction where a completely unhinted at twist can occur... but that is mostly because the gameplay and roleplay-gameplay takes over.

But honestly I have a lot of advice plot twist wise, but goodness does it depend what kind of plot twist you want to do.

If you want to surprise the players... play against their expectations... play against their Ego. Make someone who never liked them, seemed shady, and even was outspoken in disliking the party... the good guy the whole time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 27, 2015, 01:38:52 am

I'm preferable to twists that come about organically because of player actions. Say, for example, they're working in a city run by mercantile "lords", and after a few months one of them sends assassins to ambush the party. Rather than the culprit being obviously evil, or being the one they directly acted against in the past, have it be the one that they screwed up jobs for in minor ways, or the one that the party's inevitable "I dumped CHA!" member insulted.

If they take a job but neglect patently obvious things regarding the well-being of their clients (a noble worried about a rival's agents known to be in his household, a village under attack from multiple bands of goblins, whatever), roll it out and if the rolls go poorly, have them return to dead clients and nobody willing to pay them.

Smaller twists can be more arbitrary as long as they make sense in-setting, but anything that seriously affects the party (especially if it's in a negative way) should be something which they caused by taking action or neglecting to take action on obvious hooks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 04:46:15 am

Also note to self

In spite the story being the Wizards are "overpowered" because their cantrips do 1d10 damage at 120 feet... (note I am being sarcastic)

They can't really take a hit.

I had a battle against four skeletons versus a rather... fragile party (the Cleric was the Tank) and the Skeletons almost party wiped.

This is mostly because they used their shortbows. In order to win the Wizard actually had to expeditious retreat towards the skeletons in order to get them with a well placed flaming hands.

---

Once again I have to praise 5e for letting what would otherwise be Peons to genuinely be able to get a hit in. They aren't even a whole CR and a group of them could reasonably weaken a PC slightly.

It actually does what Dungeons and Dragons wanted to do for AGES which is actually have minions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 27, 2015, 04:58:24 am

Quote from: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 04:46:15 am

Also note to self

In spite the story being the Wizards are "overpowered" because their cantrips do 1d10 damage at 120 feet... (note I am being sarcastic)

Feeling bitter, eh?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 05:25:46 am

Naw, I just kind of find the whole argument hilarious in retrospect.

All I had to do is just play a session and watch all those arguments of "Overpowered" melt away, to the point where I feel dumb for ever taking it seriously.

The difference between 1d10 versus 1d10+3 was rather immense... as well as how badly a defensive fighter with hp was needed. Not to mention how fast the enemies started closing in.

Though Also the hilarious part was how amazing my Dex Checks were. Even zombies were dodging Sacred Flames like they weren't even there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 27, 2015, 04:39:35 pm

Yeah, I'm convinced that the people arguing that 1d10 at-will is OP have never actually played a Wizard in their lives.

Be glad Minor Illusion got nerfed, because that was the unquestioned OP bullshit in the 5e cantrips. Now it's Eldritch Blast, since you get the same 1d10 at-will (in delicious Force damage flavor), but you also get to level it up without taking any more levels in Warlock.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 04:41:40 pm

Illusions always seem to walk a very fine line in these games.

Mind you Pathfinder's Cantrips were flat out, out of control... and REALLY needed to be reworked.

Create Water was fine as a limited use cantrip but without it, it becomes a ridiculous flooding spell. Detect Magic might as well becoming an extra mode of vision if anyone takes it.

In all fairness a gallon isn't that much water... but still.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 27, 2015, 04:53:44 pm

Create Water isn't that bad. Assume you've got a 20th level Cleric, at 2gal/level per cast, that's 40 gallons of water per cast.

One cubic foot of water is close enough to 7.5 gallons that it's easier to approximate like that. That means you'd need 937.5 gallons just to fill a single 5' cube. That's 24 casts of the spell, or 2 minutes and 24 seconds. To fill a single 50' square room with a 10' high ceiling, you'd need a bit over 41 days. Even a little 15x15x10 room would take 3 days and 18 hours to fill.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 04:56:56 pm

True but there are a lot of creative things you can do with that.

Like the time I flooded a field where we were going to ambush some gobbos so that it would create muddy swampy terrain so we could ambush them more easily.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 27, 2015, 05:01:45 pm

See, that's the sort of thing that I'd applaud as creative thinking -- you could have done something similar in terms of battlefield control with someone ranked in Disable Device and Craft (Traps), or with a stealth sniper in your party, or even brute strength to remove potential cover and concealment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 27, 2015, 05:07:48 pm

A gallon is about 8 pounds though, and the spell creates 2 gallons/level.  You can't create it in a creature, but inside a receptacle or mid air is specifically allowed.
Huh, I assumed PF would nerf the amount when making it a free cantrip.  Nope.

One thing I regret never trying is having our party's barbarian grapple a vampire on a staircase, then casting create water at the top of the staircase for three rounds.  I guess it would use its gaseous form supernatural ability (no AoO or concentration check).  I'd argue it'd be immobilized and fall on the water since vampires can't cross running water, only be carried over in a boat or coffin.

Gaseous forms can't go under water, so I guess it'd...  just slide down the stairway unharmed?  Or maybe be stuck in place?  Either way, good opportunity to kill it.  DR 10/magic?  Please.  Plus its armor stops working, and it probably can't dodge.  Can't even use any more supernatural abilities.

Maybe it's good I didn't subject my GM and party to this though :P

Fakedit: somewhat ninja'd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 27, 2015, 05:18:49 pm

Looking at a list of zero level spells, I can't say that any jump right out at me as being overpowered or otherwise unbalanced. Though I haven't read them all yet.

One thing I find confusing is that Ghost Sound says that it can be used to enhance a Silent Image, but neither spell mentions how that works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 27, 2015, 05:28:51 pm

I think it's fairly self explanatory.

-> The image was silent
-> The image now makes sound.

As to what effect it has on rolls or whatever, I guess that's up to the DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 05:31:11 pm

Flat out the most overpowered cantrip in Pathfinder is Detect Magic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 27, 2015, 05:37:23 pm

It's stupid to have Detect Magic on a cantrip anyway, or really any sort of detection.

"DM, if I am not otherwise incapable of doing so, assume that I am casting -detection spell here- every 6 seconds."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 05:39:47 pm

Some detection spells I could see...

Heck even Detect Magic could have been balanced if it just gives a vague sense of there being magic in the room or that something is magical here. So the chest COULD have a magic trap, or it could have a magic item inside.

But it specifically is like a identify spell. So no, they will know exactly what is magical, what it does, at all times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 27, 2015, 05:50:06 pm

They know what is magical, but they must make a knowledge arcana check to tell what school of magic its aura is, and must still make a spellcraft check to determine what it is it does.

I've just read it. I always thought it just gave vague auras unless you specifically studied one aura for a few rounds. Nope. First round it is up, it shows vague auras, assuming there are any around. Next round you know how many auras there are and the power of the most potent aura. The next round, and last effect, is to pinpoint the strength and location of every aura.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 05:52:34 pm

The spellcraft test is very lenient, even level 1s have good chances to identify even major magical items... and even if they don't, the rules don't say you can't attempt it again or take 10.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 27, 2015, 05:59:26 pm

Well, I just checked the spellcraft page (PF, right?)  They have to study an area for three rounds before to pinpoint the location and strength of each aura...  Then it takes three rounds and "thorough examination" of an object to attempt the spellcraft check to identify it.  It has to be in line of sight, too.

So after three rounds they could probably tell that the chest's latch is magic, or that there's a magic aura inside it.  They'd have a very rough idea about the power level (only four states) and I think get a free Knowledge Arcana to determine the spell schools involved.  So yeah, they could probably tell that the chest was trapped (unless magic was used that confounds level 0 divination).  They couldn't identify the contents without opening it though, and it could be that that aura inside is itself a trap.

Also every round they cast it is costing a standard action, so they move at at least half speed.  They can keep concentrating for two more rounds, but (I'd say) only on the same area to get more information.

And the first round of Detect Magic only tells you one thing...  "Are there magic auras around?".  The number and highest power only come in round 2.  So a wizard in a party with any magic enchantments or items is going to have only one reason to do this: detecting antimagic fields.  Might as well cast a light spell and move at full speed.

Fakedit: ... It's 15+creator's caster level.  That's reasonable but hardly trivial.  Also, you can only try one per day.  Pathfinder, right?  Taking 10, ehhh...  It specifically says it takes 3 rounds, but I might allow that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 27, 2015, 06:07:41 pm

DC 15 + Spell Level falls off after a couple levels. Even quicker if others are able to aid, or if there is a character who has chosen to specialize in either of those skills.

Crafters would be all about passing their Spellcraft checks, for example. I know that if given enough preparation time and getting to take a 10, my level 8 oracle can pass a DC 40 Spellcraft check. I'm not sure how good that is though, as I have not looked up any optimized or min-maxed builds for Spellcraft.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 27, 2015, 06:31:46 pm

I think warlocks get detect magic as an at will spell in 5e as an invocation? I may be wrong on that...

And thats something I hate about pathfinder: diplomacy checks and most magic spells are broken, to the point my friend told me he can convince my guy, regardless of what his save was, because he had this stupidly high diplomacy bonus, of stripping naked and giving him all his stuff.

He also made the entire dungeon full of traps no longer fun because of detect magic since he knew every single room and literally sat around the entire time because half of the rooms sounded bad to him ON TOP OF HIM LOCKING EVERYONE IN THE PARTY IN A ROOM, NEVER TO ESCAPE WHEN THE LAST ROOM WAS COMPLETED. The DM was so mad, that he actually rigged the sphinx encounter to be against him and he only succeeded because he rolled a nat 20 on an intelligence check (which I call bullshit on) and he was only allowed to do it because he kept saying his character is too smart to NOT know the answer (and his int is his second lowest stat next to str because he's a kid and a charisma based caster).

Seriously, this guy says pathfinder is the best because he breaks every game he plays, making it no longer fun anymore. He refuses to play any other edition and he loses it when in my backstory I said that my brother had wounds that didn't get healed properly and he said magic answered everything, and he even studied my backstory and pretty much told me its all wrong because magic and pathfinder gods smite anyone who follows any gods that aren't actually in the pathfinder pantheon (so I can't have my backstory of my family being the last worshipers of an old pantheon of gods because my family would've been smote on the day they decided to worship anyone who isnt in the pantheon).

Throw in the fact he does everything to nerf my character because I don't play it the way he wants it, and you have that one guy who you wish wasn't there... Seriously, when I said I was making a two weapon ranger, he said I'm an idiot for not being a two handed ranger. Throw in he went up to the DM who had no problem with my wolf having his actual hit dice rolled and got mad that my wolf wasn't forced to have 9hp at second level. Seriously, this is just me he does it to, the party bard is ok, the wizard is ok, the rogue is ok but the ranger gets yelled at all the fricking time. When I made a ranger the way he wanted it as my character's brother, he still wasn't happy because I took a raven instead of a Roc as my animal companion (I picked it because I didn't know you could take a Roc and it suited his character). Seriously, I can't even have a good storyline for my character without him getting pissed at me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 06:47:07 pm

Well Diplomacy has two major weaknesses
1) The target needs to listen to you
2) The target is only more friendly towards you

Diplomacy as a Jedi Mindtrick is like Free parking rule in Monopoly... it is a house rule so prevalent that people will swear it is in the actual rulebooks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 27, 2015, 06:51:04 pm

That sounds familiar. I'm glad that my 'That Guy' got fed up and left. Though he's still out there somewhere, bitching out other players and complaining when he gets caught breaking the rules or when the rules aren't in his favour. Last I heard, he got real salty with a DM after he tried to use a mind-affecting spell against some type of demon that is specifically immune to mind-effects, and had the DM tell him no.

And considering that there is a literal nation of militant atheists that specifically go after all deities, a massive amount of dead gods that still receive worship, several real-world pantheons, most prominently being the ancient Egyptians, literal elder gods and outsiders/aliens, including Cthulhu, and plenty of philosophies that cover an incredibly wide variety of topics, I don't think he gets a pass to bitch about who you worship. The gods have enough on their hands with actual enemies to bother with people who don't even remotely affect them.

The world is crazy enough that I don't think he has a right to bitch about backstories. I mean, there is an adventure path where you travel through time and space to assassinate Rasputin. There's all that technology bullshit, with aliens and interplanetary travel. There's things from beyond the universe that even the gods don't know about, except maybe Zon-Kuthon, since he is infested by some eldritch-alien parasite. Plus who knows what the occult stuff will introduce. Just two more days till I can buy the pdf and see.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 27, 2015, 07:04:11 pm

Highmax, that's not a friend you're describing. It's That Guy, and a major tool to boot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 27, 2015, 09:22:18 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 06:47:07 pm

Well Diplomacy has two major weaknesses
1) The target needs to listen to you
2) The target is only more friendly towards you

Diplomacy as a Jedi Mindtrick is like Free parking rule in Monopoly... it is a house rule so prevalent that people will swear it is in the actual rulebooks.

The second part's a good point!  So it's like an extraordinary Charm Person, and only if you can hit a DC of 45 (Hostile to Friendly with a -10 for using 1 round instead of 10).  Under 3.5e, anyway, PF really nerfs it.  So it has most of the weakness of Charm Person, in that they're still just as hostile to your friends.  But still could be useful, particularly since a t

Under Pathfinder it's "generally ineffective in combat" and always takes a minute, so no longer a mindtrick.  Or, hm, there's an "unchained" alternate rule where you can do it in 1 round for a -10 like in 3.5e, if you have 10 ranks.  With 15 ranks, no penalty :o  I'd rule those work in combat.  It's still just two steps, hostile to indifferent, so still not as good as 3.5e.

Quote from: highmax28 on July 27, 2015, 06:31:46 pm

And thats something I hate about pathfinder: diplomacy checks and most magic spells are broken, to the point my friend told me he can convince my guy, regardless of what his save was, because he had this stupidly high diplomacy bonus, of stripping naked and giving him all his stuff.

It's pretty screwy that diplomacy rolls are unopposed, but they can only be used against NPCs (PF and 3.5e).  Oh huh, in PF they do get slightly tougher from the target's CHA mod...  That's a good idea but much too little.
Also I don't see how he would even do that to an NPC.  I guess "make request", but demanding that much aid seems absurd...  Arguably a +5 for every item requested.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 27, 2015, 09:29:12 pm

Unchained options require that you take the Signature Skill feat, however, and you have to take that feat once for each skill you want to use 'unchained'. Unless you are an unchained rogue, who gets one instance of the feat for free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 27, 2015, 10:17:26 pm

This is the same campaign with the Vegas/New York hybrid run by catfolk (who are all italian with their own mafia) and the DM has been trying so many times to best him. THIS DM IS A LEGEND, I SWEAR TO GOD.

Bluff your way through the entire Nazi encampment, making everyone beleive you're one of them with disguise self? NAZI COLONEL SHOWS UP.

He actually made the player actually sweat his balls off with one question with some sort of discern truth aura on. The question:

Yes or no, is there a shape shifter currently infiltrating our ranks as <insert the guy he was impersonating's name>?

And the only way he was able to do it is because he had two metamagic feats to make it appear he wasn't doing anything to turn off his aura or whatever with dispel magic and then LIE TO THE NAZI OFFICER WHO IS AN INQUISITOR.

His reaction was the best when the DM said the following:

The colonel sits back in his chair, lights up a cigar and smiles. "Its going to be a long day, isn't it?". PURE AND UTTER SHOCK. Its like that scene in the new wolfenstein when the lady points the gun at you during their interrogation.

This DM also masterfully created an entire campaign BASED ON FIVE NIGHTS AT FREDDY'S. And he's expecting to do a second and final part for five nights 4 (since the last ended with the same ending as five nights 3, where the killer is slain in the suit).

I should probably explain that one.

Replace the restaurant with a fortress as a prison camp. Place an anti-magic field over it and a field that banishes all outsiders (Summons, familiars, eidolons, etc) so the mages can't end the horror. Throw the party a map at the beginning that works like the marauders map, so it shows the entire layout of the place. This is the setting.

We first walk in and "That guy" spots one figure in a golden suit of armor standing on a balcony and then its gone as fast as it appeared, and now he is genuinely afraid, as the bard, "that guy" and the rogue witness a child matching the description is shot in the back of the head during an execution. The party gets a small journal about the place telling of the execution of a child called "the puppet master" from a body hung pierced by his throat as he hangs off of a sword. We enter the place, and we note that there are suits of armor on the map that are marked with strange emblems. We then spot the first one as we wander around: A blue suit of armor with glaring red eyes with a coat of arms on his chest depicting a hare. The party hides in the closet as the blue armor goes away, and we decide to take alternate route and head for the basement where several names are.

We find out its what we're here for but its locked. I'm noted as the designated map checker and I spot a red suit in the opposite stairwell with a wolf on its coat of arms. We head upstairs and back towards the prison cell where we hid before. Checking the map again, I notice the armor in that room starts darting towards us. I immediately panic and hold the door as "that guy" freaks out. The red one goes away and we maneuver our way towards the guard tower where we see a name that was mentioned to be this bastard of a warden. We have to make a detour as we find that the blue one is blocking our way.

At this point, I can't stop checking the map, and one party member who played the game to much, tells me to stop it because it attracts the red one (as apparently happens in the game). IMMEDIATELY after she says this, the red one darts towards us and we locked ourselves in the chapel. We spot a priest of some goddess of law (Saren Rae or soemthing like that) who's held up by daggers, which I take and put him down. We find what we assume is the priest's room and my and the rogue get a glimpse at a little girl looking scared at the same priest standing naked and then a third one as we witness the child being raped as the priest pulls a knife and stabs her. I instantly go over to the dead body and take his head clean off. "That guy" loses it on me, saying justice was served and he forgets I'm playing my character and he says I shouldn't be doing that because its an evil act (do note even to this day, he keeps trying to convince the DM that I did this and like 3 other things that are evil acts).

We argue, the game goes on as we make our way up. We go up the tower we need to go to and the warden is indeed the guy who shot the kid and he has no regrets of it. He agrees to free the prisoners if we take him to his office... On the other side of the fortress. We move our way and we  realize the armors get MUCH more aggressive. I check the strairwell back and I spot a gold (I think, can't remember exactly) suit of armor with a hawk on it. We marked 3/4 of the main cast (5 if you include the golden suit "that guy" saw). Party is surrounded from all sides back in the chapel and "that guy" suggests to abandon the warden to the armor. Party ends up arguing on leaving him, and then the armors move, giving us a chance to escape.

We maneuver around more and watch in a torture chamber another vision of child getting the rack and splitting in half. We make our way outside as the hawk is right behind us but only watching with the door behind us open (we decided to call her Chelsea at this point, the wolf Wolfred, and the hare Harry) and we walk outside to a balcony to see a bronze suit of armor (now named Frankie) staring us down from the courtyard and the warden flip out as he sees it. Some of us have a vision (the rogue really tanking these rolls and seeing all of them, the duregar wizard thinking we're all nuts with seeing none) of a child getting his head smacked against the edge of the wall and then getting picked up and dropped on his head by another guard. We're about to enter back into the place when we realized the DM has been rolling every time we walk into a room. He smiles as he gets up and moves us on the map. A golden suit of armor that looks exactly like Frankie shows up and screams as he charges at us and phases through us and we are all under the effect of fear as all of us except the rogue and the DM's ranger (who's the first mate and the girlfriend of the captain of our ship) try to follow us as the duregar finally admits something horrifying is going on.

We make our way upstairs and the guy gives us the key to the basement and leaves, saying he'll be alright... Without my magic map. We find his hidden stash of money and we're greeted with the sound of a small child saying "Hi!". We now see a child with tear mark scars under his eyes that run down his face and he explains to us that he can no longer control his "friends" and they are after "the bad man". The kid is the puppet master we've heard about and we go with him as we notice that the five armors have the warden cornered and he's still alive, and the kid finds it weird.

We end up in the room and they're staring at a suit of armor that is golden and has a hare on it. The puppet master laughs as he says he'll deal with this. He goes inside the armor and the armor begins to collapse upon itself, blood slowly coming out of the cracks, and slowly, it caves in on itself, and the body slumps to the ground. The puppet master and the armors go into the afterlife but the warden's body starts spasming and freaking out as he stands out, his body twitching at every movement. Cue the final boss of the area as he makes everyone in the party except the females (both of them) run away from a fear spell. My character panics in the corner as the women take out the armor, and it turns more bestial as the helm visor melds into a maw and bites the rogue on the head, hurting her immensely. After a few rounds, we finally manage to kill him (and by us, I mean the two ladies) and the body slumps over, slowly losing its spasms.

Later on, a couple months later, I check the map just to see whats happening... And the gold armor has moved, and the five others stayed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 27, 2015, 10:18:32 pm

Jesus weeps for walls of text

paragraphs, man

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 27, 2015, 10:23:41 pm

Highmax, convince your DM to do an online campaign so I can join it. :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 27, 2015, 10:37:07 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on July 27, 2015, 10:18:32 pm

Jesus weeps for walls of text

paragraphs, man

Give me a bit to go over and edit it. I kind of stopped writing, left my laptop, came back and forgot about it, came back later, wrote more, stopped writing, left, rinse and repeat like 5 times.

EDIT:

fixed it. It should look cleaner.

Quote from: UXLZ on July 27, 2015, 10:23:41 pm

Highmax, convince your DM to do an online campaign so I can join it. :v

He doesn't do online campaigns. Sadly, I'm pretty sure most of his campaign ideas would never work outside a RL environment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on July 27, 2015, 11:09:04 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 27, 2015, 06:47:07 pm

Well Diplomacy has two major weaknesses
1) The target needs to listen to you
2) The target is only more friendly towards you

Diplomacy as a Jedi Mindtrick is like Free parking rule in Monopoly... it is a house rule so prevalent that people will swear it is in the actual rulebooks.

The 3e Epic Level rules allow the use of the diplomacy skill to turn someone into a fanatical follower, but it has a dc of 50-150 depending on the target's starting attitude

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 27, 2015, 11:22:48 pm

Pathfinder ignores PC/NPC rules and its the same. I always set my games that it affects the decision, but the player ultimately decides. Apparently, that's how its done in 4e, but I may be wrong. I'm running my own 5e game with the same rule.

Also, Tyson-Chan the gnome barbarian has become a werebear and now triples her size when she turns into hybrid of bear form. I have her make a con save every time because she's essentially stretching her body to a size it should never become, making her sick and possibly have some skin becoming loose from that. So far, some tieflings tried to kidnap her, but she turned into a bear and fucked them up. Why did they try to do so? They thought she was part of a group of murderers who murder tieflings while wearing animal masks (because she has nothing but references to hotline miami in her story, why not add more?) and she has a horse head mask that they recognize. They find out she had the mask for 8 months as a sort of gift given to her by someone who left it for her but she never wore it and the murders took place 4 months prior to the moment they're at. So she's innocent, but they're going to come back. Especially when a group of gnomes appear and they're actually part of the group called 1000 Years of Sin (as named for the tieflings causing so much pain and terror to the gnomes in this world).

And just as the party is waiting for a new job to happen, the town is invaded by the ancestors of the goblin/orc alliance from over 1000 years ago. Enter the hobgoblin invasion (I decided that hobgoblins will be a new race, and for the purposes of my world, they are the product of breeding goblins and orcs together for vessels of war). This means that since the town is 90% adventurers that this battle is going to be very interesting. Oh, and a monk is going to fly in with his magic boots of levitation and drop kick someone.

I should note as well, specifically to twinwolf, this is apiks' monk I put in my world. Hatred is here and he's kind of screwing around and apiks just came into town. He also looks much better as he has tattoos for being a pirate, wears an albatross necklace (which marks a storyline with him on being cursed), and his hair is no longer flowing and long but short and near balding as he shaved it to try and avoid being noticed. He's still a flirtatious bastard though and is making th party bard very flustered since "romance" and "courting" isn't in her vocabulary as she's been a shut in for most of her (very short for an elf) life.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 27, 2015, 11:34:22 pm

How do you mate goblins and orcs safely?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 27, 2015, 11:35:43 pm

With a long, looooooong stick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 27, 2015, 11:36:48 pm

>:I

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 27, 2015, 11:45:19 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on July 27, 2015, 11:34:22 pm

How do you mate goblins and orcs safely?

I assume the same way the made Uruk Hai. Magic and other bullshit. They had over 1000 years to figure this shit out

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 27, 2015, 11:47:48 pm

No you said mating and I got worried.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 28, 2015, 12:11:33 am

You know Highmax... though not in the official rules

I actually like the idea that lycanthropy that makes the person grow too much can be extremely harsh on their system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 28, 2015, 06:40:42 pm

Polling interest more than anything but would anyone want to do a roll20 game of either DnD 5e or pathfinder  (or a handful of other rp games but this is the dnd thread) on any of Mon-Thurs, starting 10:00am est to 7:00pm est and ending no later than 11:00pm est?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 28, 2015, 07:38:30 pm

I'm down for it. My campaigns-in count is at a painful low of one active.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 28, 2015, 11:20:47 pm

I'm not a fan of roll20. My time zone is too far from too many people, being in Canada and all

Also, I'm trying really hard to not throw out an idiot I invited without realizing he's an idiot. He goes up to a drinking contest and they're all set up with the odds, and the paladin shows up and bets 1000gp on the monk winning. Everyone starts asking him what he's trying to pull and the sorcerer they're betting on, who is immune to being intoxicated for 3 days now (was 17 days, they spent too long doing other things) just up and walks away, and Tyson-chan the gnome barbarian as always, steps up to take his spot. The paladin bets 1000gp on her and everyone does as well, against a 5'11 and buff monk who was raised in a dwarven land (he has a thick scottish accent the dwarves have in my world, halflings are irish).

She starts to drink (funny thing is she's drinking against her guildmaster for the pugilist's guild) and so does he and he tanks his roll with a nat 1 and goes out like a light while she's plastered (she can't stand up at all but conscious). The paladin walks away at the time of her getting plastered and his winnings is on the table for grabs. So the very wealthy and rich rogue that is played by me (the DM) is screwed over because the party acted like idiots. He lost every single penny he had and then used the 1000gp to pay off more. Tyson-chan goes for round 2 against a minotaur because she claims she'll make it back and the patrons (I rolled this) want it to continue to earn more money. The rogue takes some bets and the gnome is out like a light. To pay off more winnings, Carl the Rogue steals all of Tyson-chan's money and pays off all of his debts... And walks away penniless while Ewan the Monk and Tyson-chan are locked in the drunk tank for the night, with him stealing the guildmaster's coin purse in the process.

The next morning, the bard finds out tyson-chan was robbed and tells Carl to give the money back, and he says (without a deception roll) that he does not have her money at all. She convinces him to hand over the money he stole and he hands her Ewan's money minus a gold (he stays in a more comfortable inn rather than the dingy brawler's bar). Ewan and Tyson-chan spend the rest of the day chatting while dealing with a hangover. The party now has to go hunt for signs of this new race called "hobgoblins" that seem like goblins with orcish bodies.

But yeah, other than me pretty much playing the shyster rogue as he would be, I have yet to punish my players too badly (at the rate they get money, its not an issue. So I increased the price of everything so it seems there's a problem with inflation (which there kind of is with how high the gold amount they get paid for low level quests. That's a problem I seem to be having in my games; I make money usually not an issue, but the acquisition of items a problem)), but I REALLY want to punch this idiot. He talks like an autistic five year old half the time to get our attention when we're talking (he interrupted me like 8 times when I said hold on while I was describing the issue to ask where he was on the battlefield), he gets REALLY mad when I punish him for stupid ideas (he tried climbing a tree in full chainmail and sleeping in it because it was too big of a burden to remove and put on, so I said he woke up uncomfortable and he falls off of trees because he fails his checks), and today he just tried justifying healing himself over the mage who was at 3hp and he was at 20hp and threw a fit because after he healed him, I crit him with a greatsword and knocked him unconscious and almost to death in negative HP. Seriously, I don't know if he actually has a mental problem, but this guy is REALLY getting on my nerves and though I tolerate Tyson-chan's player's shit because at least he doesn't do it often, everything that comes out of this guy's mouth is a bad idea AND usually something he can't do because he's either not the right class or its something that isn't physically possible (he actually at one point used his sword to chop wood to level up a bit. He also carries like 10 weapons that when I ask him if he can carry it, he never bothers to check. Seriously, guy has two swords, a shield, chainmail, 6 javelins, a crossbow with two quivers, a battle axe, a greataxe and i think he has only a 16 to st).

I even yelled at him for talking like he's a child. If he kept doing it was going to reduce his character's age by 10 years for every time he did it again. His character is only 28, so by the end of it, he would turn into a sperm or a fetus or something unborn. I already punish him for stupid ideas, but he's not learning, even if everyone warns him about his actions. I don't know if I can keep going on with him and he's running my patience thin.

On a better note, I finally have time to do a fully fleshed dungeon as for the next few weeks I'm done class (and my sessions are for in between classes for us). This means I can flesh out the hobgoblin headquarters. On a final note, HOBGOBLINS FRIGGING HURT IN 5E. They get an extra 2d6 damage as a footsoldier and 3d6 as a captain!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 29, 2015, 03:55:27 am

Quote from: kilakan on July 28, 2015, 06:40:42 pm

Polling interest more than anything but would anyone want to do a roll20 game of either DnD 5e or pathfinder  (or a handful of other rp games but this is the dnd thread) on any of Mon-Thurs, starting 10:00am est to 7:00pm est and ending no later than 11:00pm est?

Is be interested, but I can't say for sure until you settle on a time as I'm all the way over the ocean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 03:58:36 am

Quote from: scriver on July 29, 2015, 03:55:27 am

Quote from: kilakan on July 28, 2015, 06:40:42 pm

Polling interest more than anything but would anyone want to do a roll20 game of either DnD 5e or pathfinder  (or a handful of other rp games but this is the dnd thread) on any of Mon-Thurs, starting 10:00am est to 7:00pm est and ending no later than 11:00pm est?

Is be interested, but I can't say for sure until you settle on a time as I'm all the way over the ocean.

10am is a time period I rarely am happy during :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 29, 2015, 03:13:43 pm

Well more as early as 10:00am but I can start any time during those days after that as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 29, 2015, 03:16:43 pm

Yeah, I'm in a similar boat where 10:00 AM is borderline, I'd consider doing it if absolutely necessary, but I'd probably end up sleeping through sessions. Later is better, yo.  :P

Incidentally, what sort of chargen rules were you thinking of?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 29, 2015, 03:42:33 pm

That would be up for discussion, but lower level most likely.  Not level 1 but not level 10 either you know?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 29, 2015, 04:12:41 pm

I more or less figured that, meant more in terms of what level of point buy (or if you want good ol' 4d6 drop lowest instead), banned classes, &c. Also whether you're leaning PF or 5e.

'Cause I'm the sort who'll start planning out characters the moment I have guidelines, so's that I get over my kid-in-candy-store impression before the time comes to submit one.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 29, 2015, 04:33:24 pm

I'd rather 4d6 drop lowest, re-roll 1, allocate as you choose but let's move this to
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152303.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152303.0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 06:18:55 pm

Pathfinder's Occult Adventures came out, which I was pretty hyped for. Getting to play a kineticist is something I have been looking forward to.

Not so hyped for the Advanced Race Guide errata that came out today. Nerfs everywhere. Some got hit harder than others.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 06:20:06 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 06:18:55 pm

Pathfinder's Occult Adventures came out, which I was pretty hyped for. Getting to play a kineticist is something I have been looking forward to.

Not so hyped for the Advanced Race Guide errata that came out today. Nerfs everywhere. Some got hit harder than others.

THANK FREEKEN GOODNESS! Several of the races were so metagaming good that it annoyed me deeply.

Though I somehow doubt they will nerf the ones that needed to be (Aasimar, Tiefling, and Kobold)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 29, 2015, 06:25:51 pm

No, the nerfs are everywhere.

i don't care though, in my campaign, it doesn't matter how hard they slay, it's who they slay :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 06:36:08 pm

The 1/2 racial favoured class bonuses that made those races stupid are now 1/6. Also, the Scarred Witch Doctor archetype no longer scales off of Constitution, and are now Intelligence based like other Witches.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 29, 2015, 06:39:25 pm

I cannot see how someone thought making a class scale off Consitution would be a good thing to begin with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 06:51:48 pm

Kineticists scale off of it. But they also take a type of damage called 'burn' to fuel their powers, so having a high Con is necessary.

But this actually really boosts half-orcs, since they can qualify as both orc and human, and thus can take the archetype. They can potentially have an effective starting intelligence of 22, as the archetype lets you treat your intelligence as though it was two points higher.

Also, some races had their life-spans changed to match humans. Aasimar, tieflings, etc. Oddly enough, not changed for Fetchlings or the elementals, such as Ifrits, Sylphs, etc.

Oddly, Kitsune enchanters haven't gotten hit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 29, 2015, 06:53:03 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 06:51:48 pm

Kineticists scale off of it. But they also take a type of damage called 'burn' to fuel their powers, so having a high Con is necessary.

But this actually really boosts half-orcs, since they can qualify as both orc and human, and thus can take the archetype. They can potentially have an effective starting intelligence of 22, as the archetype lets you treat your intelligence as though it was two points higher.

Also, some races had their life-spans changed to match humans. Aasimar, tieflings, etc. Oddly enough, not changed for Fetchlings or the elementals, such as Ifrits, Sylphs, etc.

Oddly, Kitsune enchanters haven't gotten hit.

Fetish favoritism at work, maybe?  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 07:06:27 pm

Forgot to mention, there is an actual tinfoil hat as a magical item in the occult book. +4 against mind-effects and against divination spells. But -2 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 07:33:30 pm

The greater version of it, known as a Stannum Crown, actually does. Immunity to mind-effects and Divinations that discerns information about the wearer or their location, but -2 to mental stats. DC 25 Will save just to remove it, +1 to the DC for each consecutive day worn. At DC 35, the wearer can no longer take it off of their own free will, and no-one else can take it off either. Not even a Nat 20 works, according to the description.

Plus at that point, no-one can be treated as though they were the wearer's ally anymore, and the wearer must always roll a save against all effects, even ones marked as friendly or harmless. They must even continue to save if rendered unconscious.

It was said to have been created by a mad psychic king who was convinced that beings from other planes were watching him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 08:52:02 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on July 29, 2015, 06:39:25 pm

I cannot see how someone thought making a class scale off Consitution would be a good thing to begin with.

It definitely can work and for the most part a lot of creatures in the game have their abilities use constitution over anything else.

It just needed to keep in mind how... lets say... utilitarian using constitution as your caster stat is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 29, 2015, 09:03:17 pm

Dragon Fire Adepts scale off of CON and they're lots of fun. 15/30 ft cone breath attack every round? Yes please. invocations similar to warlocks? Oh baby. Simple weapon proficiencies? Ah well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2015, 09:07:42 pm

Constitution is the most important non-primary skill, particularly in a rounded party.  Even helps with save-or-dies.

I wrote more but came to the conclusion that the other skills are roughly balanced.  Charisma most questionably so, since typically a party Face is allowed to handle everything.  Depends on the GM, group, and situation though.

Oh and the giantitp "X stat to Y bonus" thread is gold, for Pathfinder and 3.5e:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 09:11:45 pm

To be fair, there is a good number of monsters who only really have their racial hit-dice going for them, which (usually) can't compare to actual class levels in mid-to-late-game.

Though Con is incredibly good to scale off of. Of the normal mental-based casters, I prefer ones that scale off of Wis compared to Int or Cha, since it helps your Will save. A great number of classes tend to have Cha as their dump stat, and some that have a decent number of skill ranks per level don't need to worry as much about their Int. Though a good Cha can be invaluable in role-playing heavy campaigns.

The only thing more optimized than having Con as a caster stat would probably be Dex. At least at early levels. Thankfully, I don't know of any Dex based casters.

In other news, I have been trying to figure out how effective cohort levels for monsters work, but I can't seem to figure it out. Anyone else have an idea of how it works?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 29, 2015, 09:20:33 pm

Agreed, casting from CON is pretty much the opposite of MAD; you just gotta max one ability, get a +1 or +2 to DEX, and dump whatever you like. So broken. INT/WIS/CHA are good caster stats not only because they make sense, but also because the general benefits from them are less critical, apart from bonuses to Will saves. It'd be like letting a martial class use CON for their AB and bonus damage, with a class feature to scale carry weight from CON.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 09:28:01 pm

Well actually Barbarians in 5e use Constitution for their AC along with dexterity. But that is to allow them to go armorless.

Strength, Dexterity, and Con can be used as a "casting stat" but it would have to function differently then normal.

I can picture a Con caster as being a sort of tank.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2015, 09:46:59 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 09:11:45 pm

In other news, I have been trying to figure out how effective cohort levels for monsters work, but I can't seem to figure it out. Anyone else have an idea of how it works?

(3.5e) If they have a level adjustment then it's HD+LA.  If they don't, they're not "supposed" to be a cohort - it's houseruling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 09:51:18 pm

In Pathfinder, there's a bunch of monsters available as cohorts in the back of each bestiary, and in a few other books here and there. But their listed effective cohort level doesn't seem to be based off of their hit-die or their challenge rating. I can't seem to be able to come up with a formula, and it is bugging me.

Not sure what LA is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2015, 09:56:33 pm

LA is Level Adjustment, but apparently Pathfinder did away with that and replaced it with .......
The sense I got (from a single giantip thread, I don't know PF) is that it's up in the air (GM fiat).  Which kinda sucks IMO.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?201579-Pathfinder-Level-Adjustment-Rules

Hopefully someone who actually knows PF can provide actual help.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 09:57:37 pm

Honestly I never liked the idea that creatures and monsters couldn't gain levels unless something prevented them from learning or growing.

as I've said before as lazy as 4e was... I actually did like the fact that it would make multiple versions of every single monster it created (weaker and stronger ones) and for some it actually made a lot of sense (The Skin zombie being made from different creatures).

Honestly I'd love to see that for 5e but with less "Pallet swap" aspect.

For example the "Rune Wolf" was a incredibly powerful wolf... but other then being powerful it was a wolf. If they remade the Rune Wolf and changed it up...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 29, 2015, 10:06:50 pm

Yea, the Pathfinder rules for monsters with class levels reads like an afterthought.

You use the creature's Challenge Rating as their base level, then just throw class levels on top of that, treating the sum of their CR and their class levels as their new CR. For every three class levels it has, give them one bonus class level, to a maximum number of bonus class levels of half their base Challenge Rating.

Though the rules for monstrous cohorts and companions throws all of this out the window and replaces them with rules made of nerf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2015, 10:10:51 pm

Which is pretty absurd.  CR in 3.5e means "what level should a party of FOUR be to defeat this solo".  VERY different from its Effective Character Level (ECL), since it's based on a party fighting a monster instead of a monster joining a party.  The 3.5e writers knew that some powers are much more powerful in player hands...  except when they forgot.

@Neonivek
I always assumed (I made a point of not reading the DMG as a player) that monsters could be dynamically advanced in HD to boost their HP and BAB.  I based that on how certain monsters get larger if their HD reaches a certain amount, labelled as their "advancement" in the d20srd.  I assumed that monsters without that property could also advance in HD/BAB, they just wouldn't gain size.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:12:09 pm

It kind of makes 5es rules on Monsters with Class levels... the most intelligent by far...

SURE it is "do it yourself" but on the other hand I feel like it is 100 times more accurate then 3.5 and Pathfinder combined.

Quote from: Rolan7 on July 29, 2015, 10:10:51 pm

@Neonivek
I always assumed (I made a point of not reading the DMG as a player) that monsters could be dynamically advanced in HD to boost their HP and BAB.  I based that on how certain monsters get larger if their HD reaches a certain amount, labelled as their "advancement" in the d20srd.  I assumed that monsters without that property could also advance in HD/BAB, they just wouldn't gain size.

It has serious issues... compare the Unicorn versus the Celestial Charger

They are both Unicorns... but the Celestial Charger is a heroic Unicorn and is basically an expansion of the Unicorn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2015, 10:17:14 pm

The Celestial Charger is ECL 16.  8HD, fair enough, but then +8LA.  A unicorn is ECL 8, 4HD+4LA.

I certainly haven't done the math, but I'd expect a base unicorn with 7 levels of cleric (by srd) and an extra HD to be roughly comparable to the Celestial Charger.  DR/10 magic is pretty worthless, as per common sense (and savage species, as I recall).  The entire celestial template, which Celestial Charger seems to be aping, is mostly useless.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:25:05 pm

Damage reduction / common thing

Is probably something that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

In 5e at LEAST damage reduction/magic is something that could conceivably pop up (and as such they REALLY improved it)...

But in 3.5 unless you were at incredibly low levels... you had a magic weapon.

It made it feel very pointless.

I actually liked Damage reduction / Blank. The monster was resistant to weak blows and could conceivably shrug off minimal rolls.. as well in 4e they had multiple ways to get through damage reduction.

Damage Reduction/Magic really might as well not exist... the ONLY things that proxy that are physical spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2015, 10:30:05 pm

My group accidentally played as if DR/cold iron and such worked against energy damages.  (We had a couple of fey in the party for a while).
Turns out energy damage bypasses all DR, but we didn't know.
But yeah absolutely agreed Neonivek, about DR/magic.  Pretty much a joke.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 29, 2015, 10:33:20 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 09:28:01 pm

Well actually Barbarians in 5e use Constitution for their AC along with dexterity. But that is to allow them to go armorless.

Strength, Dexterity, and Con can be used as a "casting stat" but it would have to function differently then normal.

I can picture a Con caster as being a sort of tank.

Yeah, but that's acceptable for the same reason that Monk WIS to AC is: it's compensating for something the class can't do because of flavor, rather than allowing them to cast from a stat that they'd be boosting anyways. Agreed on the image, though; it'd make for an interesting Knight variant maybe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:35:50 pm

Mind you surprise surprise Monks in 3.5 were a flat out inferior class that had to find ways to weasel out of their class limitations or outright mid/max munchkin to make them work.

Barbarians using Constitution is a rather sizable mercy for 5e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on July 29, 2015, 10:37:50 pm

Oh, yeah. Unhouseruled 3.5 Monks were basically worthless, and PF didn't get them right the first time around either. Low-tier HD and no full BAB on a melee combatant says to me that someone was drunk when they designed the class, never mind the issues with proficiency and weapon enhancements for Unarmed Strike.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:41:09 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on July 29, 2015, 10:37:50 pm

Oh, yeah. Unhouseruled 3.5 Monks were basically worthless, and PF didn't get them right the first time around either. Low-tier HD and no full BAB on a melee combatant says to me that someone was drunk when they designed the class, never mind the issues with proficiency and weapon enhancements for Unarmed Strike.

Kind of a shame because I love their concept... Beyond just using their fists (ignoring that 3.5 and Pathfinder make using their fists a BAD idea... for dumb reasons)... They are kind of like Anti-mages and Saving throw kings. If a Monster had a ability that messed with the party chances are the Monk would stay up.

Or rather they are by far the most flexible class in terms of always having a way to contribute to a fight. Pathfinder further augmented this by also making them unparalelle in terms of maneuvers... Too bad Maneuvers either suck or are flat out overpowered in pathfinder.

The Brawler while far superior to the Monk feels more like "What if a Monk was a competent fighter?" and strips out everything not related to that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 29, 2015, 10:43:55 pm

In 5E monks are sort of a utility class as well. I mean, Tongue of Sun and Moon and immunity to aging is cool, but unless the DM often uses languages the party can't speak, or the campaign goes for 40 years, they're... Pretty much totally useless.

They also get some nutso stuff though for combat. Empty Body is INSANE.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 29, 2015, 10:44:25 pm

DR/magic is fine though. In most campaign settings, -you're- the odd ones out. DR/magic isn't necessarily meant as a blockade for the players, it's to establish an in-world idea. Honestly, how many mooks do you come up against actually have magic weapons most of the time, at least in the early-to-mid levels?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 29, 2015, 10:45:01 pm

If I wasn't in a pathfinder game with the DM of the year (in my opinion, its up in the air for others, though some of you seem to like his ideas for his world) I wouldn't play it. It rolls on making the game too easy, removing most challenges. As a ranger, pretty much if anything I fight is my favored enemy at level 20, they save or die every time I hit them (and I can hit 4 times right now just at level 6, and I'm on my way to getting 5). Change that to WHATEVER I'M FIGHTING for a slayer and its broken as hell.

The one thing I wished they would do for pathfinder is finish the warlock page. Its pretty much the aborted fetus laying on the site I use

Quote from: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:25:05 pm

Damage reduction / common thing

Is probably something that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

In 5e at LEAST damage reduction/magic is something that could conceivably pop up (and as such they REALLY improved it)...

But in 3.5 unless you were at incredibly low levels... you had a magic weapon.

It made it feel very pointless.

I actually liked Damage reduction / Blank. The monster was resistant to weak blows and could conceivably shrug off minimal rolls.. as well in 4e they had multiple ways to get through damage reduction.

Damage Reduction/Magic really might as well not exist... the ONLY things that proxy that are physical spells.

To be fair, in 5e, they made resistances do half damage right off the bat, which makes barbarian the best class in the game as a solo fighter in the early game with rage. Throw in that some lower level challenges/boss monsters have immunities (which would've spelled the death of many of my party members if I didn't make the werebear they were planning on fighting only resistant to it, they would've all died cause no one but the barbarian had silver and the paladin ran out of spell uses, and the only casters were the sorcerer and the bard who was tied up and in werewolf form). This also lead to the party killing CR 5 werebear who only survived one round because the sorcerer did half his HP and the barbarian did the other half anyway.

One thing I like i 5e that I saw so far is the DM handbook and the PHB have finally shed some light on downtime activities and what they can do, as well as having things not as stupidly cheap as usual (example: 4e platemail is 50gp and cna be bought right off the bat, making the first level paladin with a heavy shield have such a high AC that in order to hit him I had to include enemies that targeted will/reflex/fort defences). Its much more balenced in 4e, but they also made it so that money isn't inflated to hell and back, so I fucked up and gave the party the amonut of gold you'd get in a 4e game, but they have so much money now that looking in the DMG and the PHB they can afford enough housing at level 4 to own their own households. So I decided I'm secretly gonig to have a problem in my world be is someone is summoning fools gold (like the ritual) and found a way to extend its duration. So after some time, the party is going to randomly lose money at certain points of the adventure and have to deal with this problem. Once they fix this, there's going to be a big depression in this world as no one has real money anymore and then I can finally fix the economy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 29, 2015, 10:48:49 pm

"Oh, hey, guys, you know that 50'000 gold you've been saving up for three months to buy that airship with?"

"Yeah, what about it? We've been looking forward to that, and we're almost there, so hopefully next encounter will give us enough."

"Weeelll, most of it sort of vanished. You now have 500."

They're gonna like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:50:49 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on July 29, 2015, 10:43:55 pm

In 5E monks are sort of a utility class as well. I mean, Tongue of Sun and Moon and immunity to aging is cool, but unless the DM often uses languages the party can't speak, or the campaign goes for 40 years, they're... Pretty much totally useless.

They also get some nutso stuff though for combat. Empty Body is INSANE.

5e Monks are not only FINALLY good fighters (and at level 14 they become saving throw-gods) but they still are amazing at ensuring that they are always useful in every fight. Even able to run up and down walls, across liquids, and other surfaces.

But a HUGE HUGE boost to Monks is that all their powers are called after they have made an attack rather than before. So no longer do you call a stunning fist, miss, and then it is wasted.

And lets not forget... Poison is extremely common and a damage type. It means that Monks don't take poison damage nor do they receive the poisoned status effect (Which is NASTY)

Heck if you wanted to metagame the best Monk would flat out be a Red Dragonkin Monk. At level 10 you are immune or resistant to the vast majority of the damage in the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 29, 2015, 10:54:59 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on July 29, 2015, 10:48:49 pm

"Oh, hey, guys, you know that 50'000 gold you've been saving up for three months to buy that airship with?"

"Yeah, what about it? We've been looking forward to that, and we're almost there, so hopefully next encounter will give us enough."

"Weeelll, most of it sort of vanished. You now have 500."

They're gonna like that.

Replace the 50,000 gold airship with 250,000 gold as it seems to stand right now. Party won't lose THAT much at a time, but they'll notice it enough. Probably like 15-30 gold at a time, maybe more when they finish that side quest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on July 29, 2015, 10:57:06 pm

That's a fair point, really.

Though, yeah, monks are super fun to play. I just prefer them in Net games where all your utility is more likely to become useful. I love the idea of the Shadow monks, too. They can become invisible AT-WILL while in dim light or darker, and can teleport AT-WILL from one area of dim light to another within 60 feet.

At level... 4? 250K? What are you smokin' Max, that's insane even for 4E. O_O

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 30, 2015, 12:14:12 am

No no, i mean the airship is going to cost that much.

Everything is like 5x its regular amount, and some others even more so. I manage to balence it in 4e with the lack of items being readily available. So when they go to shops and stuff, they don't get whatever they want, but they get whats in the shops inventory

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 30, 2015, 12:24:22 am

3.5 has that as well... but it is rarely enforced

Heck technically players are supposed to pay for their healing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on July 30, 2015, 11:08:42 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 29, 2015, 10:25:05 pm

Damage reduction / common thing

Is probably something that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

In 5e at LEAST damage reduction/magic is something that could conceivably pop up (and as such they REALLY improved it)...

But in 3.5 unless you were at incredibly low levels... you had a magic weapon.

It made it feel very pointless.

I actually liked Damage reduction / Blank. The monster was resistant to weak blows and could conceivably shrug off minimal rolls.. as well in 4e they had multiple ways to get through damage reduction.

Damage Reduction/Magic really might as well not exist... the ONLY things that proxy that are physical spells.

OR They need to revert it to something like how it worked in 3.0, where it couldn't be just any magic weapon, it had to have a certain minimum enhancement bonus

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 31, 2015, 01:59:42 am

I wish they had a section for healing in the CR ratings...

My BEST attempt to rectify it is if a creature can use an action to heal, and is going to, that it essentially aborts its third turn to do so on the damage scale.

But it only matters if it can possibly push the HP to a different CR scale... Otherwise I just use the damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 01, 2015, 09:46:13 pm

Another game night. Swapped my oracle out to try out the kineticist.

Really not a fan of the burn mechanic, though my constitution is absolutely ridiculous. The damage output may not seem that great either, but a conductive-enchanted weapon helps out with that a lot.

Still, it was only one session, so I'll try it out a bit more and see how I feel about it after another few. For now, I just said that my oracle went semi-insane and locked himself in the ship's workshop, cackling incoherently about making the most perfect set of Graveknight armour. There's also a request box he left outside the door in case anyone wants any crafting done.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 01, 2015, 09:52:59 pm

So I just crit 5 times fighting a giant centipede inside a catfolk ruin with a sunblade while at 8hp left. We also met the worlds equivalent of Penn and Teller who had us play a game to get their cooperation. They also hate the Elf nazis.

Did I mention that no one in my party knows catfolk? Apparently I became a translator since I'm the only one who put any score into linguistics. So i made sure the party didn't have to go back into town to find someone to translate the ruins.

Also, that guy got pissed off at me because he hands me an artifact that's literally Jack Sparrow's compass (it shows you what you most desire) and I lose it to the Nazi Colonel because he was going to kill my characters friend (otherwise, he would have let them expend their poison). Since my character desires revenge for his brother, it leads to his killer (who we were hunting anyway for an artifact he has). I tried to outsmart him by speaking in Auran, the language of the sky, and he knew it somehow. So because I logically put a compass in my pocket, like a normal person, everyone, ESPECIALY THAT GUY, got mad at me. He's more pissed that I lost it because he had to get the thing from the Nazis to begin with.

The thing was I was going to leave he party if I still had the compass to go search for my character's murderous brother to ask for him to come home for his brothers' final rest. Sadly, that won't happen. Good news is we found my brother's killer anyway! Huzzah!

Only gripe I have is everyone got mad at me and berates me for evil actions when I'm a chaotic neutral character, and yet the fucking summoner rips people apart for fun and he gets away with it. Like what the fuck is up with that!?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 01, 2015, 10:09:58 pm

Is the summoner actually evil?

Still shit to have everyone else get mad at you while other players can do worse things and not have any repercussions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 01, 2015, 10:38:35 pm

Balance it with good actions

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 01, 2015, 11:15:55 pm

He's the same alignment as me: chaotic neutral.

And I do plenty of good acts. No one recognizes them though. And most of them don't pertain to the party but my wolf and his bonds with some characters. My character is afraid of getting close to people because he watched his older brother die and he takes it as his own fault. He doesn't want that hurt to happen again, but he's getting close with the summoner and even told him his death wish if he is killed in the next session

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 03, 2015, 09:04:59 pm

Been reading the Occult Adventures more intently, and some things about the kineticist just irk me. Not like the burn, as it can be mitigated in ways, and is ultimately there for balance. It's just that some of the features feel incomplete.

One that I've seen brought up a few times is that most of the four elements are included, those elements being fire, cold, and electricity, but there is no acid. Earth just lets you throw rocks at people, being one of the two schools that only offer a physical based simple blast, with the other school being telekinetic. Then again, fire is the only school with only an energy based simple blast. Not that I can think of any fire-based physical alternatives. Air and water both have one physical based and one energy based simple blast.

Another is that building your kineticist in the wrong way can potentially cripple you. If you were to choose electricity as your first simple blast, earth as your second, and cold as your third, you would never be able to do a composite blast, as there are no composite blasts that include electricity and earth, electricity and cold, or earth and cold. I would prefer it if you were able to access all of your chosen schools' simple blasts, either by default or as one of the kinetic talents that you get while leveling. If you can get the defensive abilities of other schools through a talent, I do not see why you can't get other blasts the same way.

Not exactly something that would completely ruin your characters, but this stuff does bug me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2015, 09:07:01 pm

I will admit that sometimes dungeons and dragons feels oddly exclusionary of Water and Earth... Often relegating them to "acid"...

5e is a BIT, a very tiny bit, better... but no it still goes the "But water doesn't have water damage!" route

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 03, 2015, 09:13:59 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on August 03, 2015, 09:04:59 pm

Another is that building your kineticist in the wrong way can potentially cripple you. If you were to choose electricity as your first simple blast, earth as your second, and cold as your third, you would never be able to do a composite blast, as there are no composite blasts that include electricity and earth, electricity and cold, or earth and cold.

(I have no idea how kineticists work, and I also hate options in RPGs that turn out to be horrible.  There should be warnings.)
Electricity and earth is an obvious conflict...  Electricity and cold I can kinda see being incompatible.  But earth and cold?  There should be "composite blasts" that use that, as those elements are well related.  Almost anywhere on the Earth you can dig down a few feet and things will be cool.  That's why cellars were a thing.  A friend of mine even made a heat pump air conditioner which piped water through a coil in a pit.  Didn't turn out to be efficient, but still.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 03, 2015, 09:19:30 pm

It's probably because water and earth ultimately do physical damage. I mean, I guess you could argue the same thing about... Something, can't remember what.

Think of it this way, there are clear differences in what actually happens with (most of) the other damage types.

Electricity - Electrocution, different to
Fire - Burns, different to
Ice - Freezes, different to
Acid - (Chemical) burns/melts, different to
Radiant - Weird rotting energy (fantasy element) different to
Necrotic - Weird holy energy (fantasy element) different to
Poison - Inhibits certain parts of biological processes via (usually) blocking enzymes from doing their jobs.

I disagree with Thunder being a damage type, for the most part.

Please explain the meaningful differences between Water and Earth damage? I mean, you can cop out and go "Different types of magickal energeh" but are their any, relevant, real-word differences? As far as I can tell, the differences are mostly the same as between hitting someone with a chair or a sword, a club or a whiteboard, a pencil or  an arrow. It might be slashing, it might be piercing, it might be bludgeoning, but ultimately it's all physical kinetic-energy based external damage. No chemical differences.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 03, 2015, 09:34:16 pm

Angband (old roguelike with many clones) represented earth with "shards".  Basically:  Rocks cut, water bashes.
Of course, cutting and bashing are already represented as non-energy attacks...  (Again, my perspective is 3.5e so idk what PF does differently).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 03, 2015, 09:36:33 pm

A kineticist is basically a bender from Avatar. You choose one of the four elements, or telekineticism. There is even an archetype that allows bloodbending, and one that is a hybrid of monk/kineticist.

At level one, you choose your element, and only get one of that element's blasts. You also get one infusion that you are eligible for, which is a type of talent that alters your blasts in some form or another. At level two, you get your element's defensive talent. There is only one defensive talent for each element. Also at level two, you can begin taking utility talents, which can vary from being able to fly to being able to heal others.

At level seven, you are able to choose your second element. This can be any element; even the one you chose at level one. If it is the same as your first element, then you get the blast you didn't take at level one, which only applies for aero- and hydro-kineticists. You also gain access to composite blasts automatically. You do not have to choose which ones you want; you can use any of the listed composite blasts so long as you have access to the two simple blasts that the composite is made of. You get to pick a third element at level fifteen. Again, you can choose your primary element, even if you've already chosen it at level seven as well. Choosing the same element at levels one, seven, and fifteen gives you a +1 to hit and damage, and +1 to any DCs if applicable when using your element's abilities. It is stated that you can never choose the same element more than once when you get to expand your elements if it is not the element chosen at level one.

The way the simple blasts work is like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Telekinetic Blasts:
Telekinetic Blast: any physical damage type; you throw random clutter at your target with your mind, with the physical type depending on what is thrown.

Air Blasts:
Air Blast: physical, bludgeoning damage only. Literally a gust of wind.
Electric Blast: zap an enemy, doing electricity damage.

Earth Blasts:
Earth Blast: physical, any type, as you pull rocks or other debris from the ground, then shape and launch them.

Fire Blasts:
Fire Blast: basically throwing a fireball at one person, dealing fire damage.

Water Blasts:
Cold Blast: cold damage, emits a cold beam at a foe.
Water Blast: physical, bludgeoning only, basically slamming a foe with water.

Pathfinder isn't too much different than 3.5, to my knowledge. It shouldn't be too different, as PF was based off of 3.5

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 04, 2015, 12:06:26 am

Quote

I disagree with Thunder being a damage type, for the most part

Thunder is sonic damage created through intense damaging vibrations.

In fact Thunder is literally sonic renamed. A more appropriate name all things considered. Sure it COULD be considered blunt damage, but what protects against blunt doesn't effectively protect against sonic. In a similar way that Fire and Cold damage are in fact the same damage (look it up!)

Necrotic damage is actually a vast array of damage types. They reflect a sort of entropic erosion. Anti-matter would outright be necrotic damage.
-Other sources of necrotic damage is: Shrugging off death (Anything that outright kills you without trauma typically does necrotic)

Which come to think of it... Radiant is kind of the same way. It might be a fantasy element but for the most part it is like a fire that can burn anything leaving behind only an odd ash. Think of it like a type of fire that could light water and rocks on fire. (chemically it would be an energy that causes molecules to excite and release their bonds)... all without really being hot (and some things can be lit on fire in less than room temperature)

Quote

Please explain the meaningful differences between Water and Earth damage?

Well it would be the difference between getting hit by a rock and being hit by a tidal wave I'd think.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 04, 2015, 05:35:59 am

Fire is excess energy/releasing it, Cold is energy drain. Necrotic and Radiant are basically pure fantasy elements so they're hard to explain.

I mostly agree with the other stuff, but that's not a meaningful difference. They're both blunt force trauma. There may be minute differences (like comparing getting over the head with a rock and a garden gnome) but not nearly enough to constitute them being classified as different elements in a non-thematic sense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 04, 2015, 02:21:03 pm

Well scientifically one is a solid and one is a liquid and as such they act dramatically different even when doing similar actions.

Though game wise the actual differences could never really be brought to the foreground because it would bog the game down.

It isn't as simple a difference as fire damage and cold damage. They would actually have real differences that would have to be explored outside just raw damage.

(By the by Fire and Cold deal damage via temperature differences, suddenly accelerating or decelerating. They both burn)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 05, 2015, 12:52:28 am

I;m about to do a large scale war with my 5e group I'm DMing. This is interesting because at the end of the battle, I add the successes as a set DC for certain events to occur. If the party succeeds this percentile DC by 100% or more (as successes in the battles they are given increase the bonus to the roll, and some failures give a negative to the roll) the party gets minimal casualties (including people they know). For each failure, the same people will die, and more negative events happen.

On an 55% or more, the party succeeds but the fight had some hiccups keeping from a flawless victory. The old and inexperienced died in this one

On a 30%-54% the war ends in a stalemate, both sides taking heavy losses.

On a 15-29% the hobgoblins win but many escape. Many archers and healers are cut down in a flank attack, causing the battle to make a turn towards the hobgoblins winning. The party will only get this low if the party failed to defeat the hobgoblin warlord

On a 14% or less, the hobgoblins decimate the field and all is lost. Many are cut down and slain upon retreating, and trolls, dire boars and ettins take joy in slaughtering people by the dozen.

But what influences this battle is several things: the party succeeding their battles, every NPC they keep alive, and the speed of which they defeat the enemy, and of course, if the leader of the army survives or not.

The leader will prove too strong for the party when they face him, and he will absolutely decimate them in one round, especially on his dire boar mount. But a DM character I introduced who flirts with the party bard often and tries over and over to woo her over, comes in and manages to take him out, but is slain by the warlord as his mount charges away in panic (pulling a part out of Megaman X here sort of). The party will hopefully defeat him and then the results of the fight will happen.

HOWEVER. There is the option to ignore the battle, walk off the battle map and do a "retreat" action where you ignore the fight and you get a big negative to the DC as you doom everyone who is fighting with you in that part (so casualty negatives, failure negatives, and morale negatives).

Since one of my players is running as a leader in this fight, she is running support. I am having her make differnet checks depending on how she wants to boost the morale of her allies. This also adds into the DC of success with her succeeding and picking the right skill check.

There are three main waves and the cavalry lines, as well as medics and support fire (aka archers/mages). The first wave is for the main force, fighting a lot of regular footmen (using numbers more than strength). Wave two will be fighting mostly big brutes and heavy fighters. The third wave, as I call the cleanup crew, will be fighting charging cavalry, brutes AND large numbers. The cavalry for wave 3 will run past and try to hit the players and NPCs, giving them a reflex save to dodge them. If players kill them before they hit the edge of the map, there are more positives added to the roll. Cavalry makes several attack rolls, handle animal checks and a few other checks for hitting their enemy, staying on their mount, keeping grip on their weapon, and if they fail staying on their mount, being able to get back up without getting finished off. Support fire should NOT have to fight, but if there are any players who choose to do that, there will be either a lot of checks to aid in firing constantly, taking out targets, or if you're like me, have a raid come and try to kill them, where they get a combat session. The healers should be making medicine checks up the wazzoo, with maybe one small combat thing happening if things turn for the worse.

I'm also told Tyson-chan will be riding her minotaur buddy as a combat ally/mount to fight off the enemy. This is going to be VERY messy folks, expect a big update on the results of the fight tomorrow

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 05, 2015, 05:54:12 am

Quote from: highmax28 on August 05, 2015, 12:52:28 am

The leader will prove too strong for the party when they face him, and he will absolutely decimate them in one round, especially on his dire boar mount. But a DM character I introduced who flirts with the party bard often and tries over and over to woo her over, comes in and manages to take him out, but is slain by the warlord as his mount charges away in panic (pulling a part out of Megaman X here sort of). The party will hopefully defeat him and then the results of the fight will happen.

Nothing quite like NPCs strolling in and defeating the enemy boss for you. :I

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 05, 2015, 07:29:16 am

Relevant. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1108)

Edit: Should've gone with this instead, it is even relevanter. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=740)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on August 05, 2015, 07:55:01 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 05, 2015, 05:54:12 am

Quote from: highmax28 on August 05, 2015, 12:52:28 am

The leader will prove too strong for the party when they face him, and he will absolutely decimate them in one round, especially on his dire boar mount. But a DM character I introduced who flirts with the party bard often and tries over and over to woo her over, comes in and manages to take him out, but is slain by the warlord as his mount charges away in panic (pulling a part out of Megaman X here sort of). The party will hopefully defeat him and then the results of the fight will happen.

Nothing quite like NPCs strolling in and defeating the enemy boss for you. :I

I think highmax meant the NPC takes out the boss' mount, not the boss, making him beatable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2015, 09:00:38 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 05, 2015, 05:54:12 am

Quote from: highmax28 on August 05, 2015, 12:52:28 am

The leader will prove too strong for the party when they face him, and he will absolutely decimate them in one round, especially on his dire boar mount. But a DM character I introduced who flirts with the party bard often and tries over and over to woo her over, comes in and manages to take him out, but is slain by the warlord as his mount charges away in panic (pulling a part out of Megaman X here sort of). The party will hopefully defeat him and then the results of the fight will happen.

Nothing quite like NPCs strolling in and defeating the enemy boss for you. :I

I am used to it frankly. But usually it only happens within the first few sessions as a sort of "introduction to the big players" before you, yourself become a big player.

Or when a boss monster is "defeated" but somehow doesn't go down.

Or when the NPC is mostly a "This boss is hard" character meant to save the party if they prove incapable of winning. (Which in the game this happened, it was rather fair. Since winning usually provided a nice reward, while being saved minimized it)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on August 05, 2015, 09:27:37 am

Quote from: Twinwolf on August 05, 2015, 07:55:01 am

I think highmax meant the NPC takes out the boss' mount, not the boss, making him beatable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 05, 2015, 10:08:37 am

With the mount, the warlord would have been impossible to handle. Dire Boars are tanky monsters and the warlord gets three attacks on the party and his mount gores others as well.

Him alone is a CR of 6. With the dire boar, it becomes a CR of 8. All the DM character is doing is dismounting him, and the dire boar charges away as the warlord stabs him in the chest. Its supposed to be more cinematic than anything.

Once again, megaman X where Zero comes in, destroys Vile's ride armor and X has to fight him on foot when he's vulnerable. He will actually play no part in making it any easier; just making it possible.

Throw in the fact that the party members will have to deal with wounds from previous battles, as there will be no short rests here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 05, 2015, 10:50:39 am

There's a scene like this at the end of Temple of Elemental Evil where an evil demigod is summoned, and several rounds later another deity appears to deal with him, leacing the party to deal with the high priest and his goons

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2015, 10:53:04 am

Goodness sometimes books need to be a bit more clear on rulings

5e actually lists magic ammunition and then uses a singular term to indicate that "yes you only get one bolt, arrow, and bullet"...

But what the writers seemed to misplace is that a group can be singular. You can have a single group of ammunition and refer to a piece of it in singular as ammunition.

---

Still don't like that I feel like I need an entire armory book for the items to be fleshed out.

The other aspect is that there is no weapon rolls so far... So "Any Sword" is not fleshed out and of that it can still be a "Monk Weapon"

Time for me to work a bit to "fix" this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 05, 2015, 11:04:05 am

I think that highmax has the right idea about using this plot device in his game, as long as it is handled well, with a focus on descriptive instead of mechanical.  Having 'divine aid' to even things out can actually be very good storytelling.

I've used the same kind of thing a few times, as long as it isn't overused and it doesn't marginalize the players, it is very good at increasing immersion.

My favorite was in a Rifts campaign years ago, where after a grueling battle with a demon, a group of shifters managed to open a rift and summon a much more powerful demon.  The players were completely exhausted, their armor was trashed and they were very low on ammo, so they sent out a general distress call (their idea, not mine).  So I rolled (mostly for effect, I don't like plot armor and I won't hesitate to kill characters, but only when they can actually do something about it), and the party received their aid, in the form of a hundred meter high giant robot called Odin that used an equally large ferrous plasma cannon to obliterate the beast (immune to conventional weapons does not include this kind of destructive force in my games).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2015, 11:12:56 am

Also reminds me of a videogame where you are about to basically fight an unstoppable killing machine of a boss that for the most part you have no chance against, no living being does.

But not only do you have entire squads of archers fire at it, but several groups of people weaken it down before it even gets to you.

I would love to recreate that but translating "Yeah, this thing is probably not going to go down unless you do something above and beyond" to the PCs is an arduous task.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 05, 2015, 11:18:50 am

NFO, I still REALLY want you to do a PBP forum game. :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 05, 2015, 03:02:12 pm

I'll have to experiment with more forum games before I try to bring my personal style to the web, I'm really not sure how well it would translate.

Here, this is a SG I ran for a bit a while ago: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138363.msg5255103#msg5255103 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138363.msg5255103#msg5255103)

It was a bit simplified because I wasn't sure how things would go, but it does show a bit of my DM style.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 05, 2015, 03:12:55 pm

I'll have to check it out, when I wake up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 05, 2015, 04:30:52 pm

So the battle was won greatly, with minimal casualties.

The support fire group shot down any oncoming forces before they could get to them. The party fought several monsters with several NPCs they knew as allies, and the climatic battle began.

The party who was on the front lines was present, so three members, and they watch as the leader of the actual army is cut down quickly by the warlord and his mount. He holds his shield and blade in a defensive position as he swings and carves his way through the party with his mount. Tyson-chan the barbarian even turned werebear and it was looking bleak. Then, the monk I palyed with the party drops in and kicks him off the monut (no damage dealt). The warlord stabs him in the heart and using it as a fulcrum, snaps his spine by striking him as hard as he can in the chest. He then takes a two handed attack stance and ditches his shield (lowering his AC by 2 but doing a 1d10 damage die with an extra +3 to damage) and stands tall as the party starts to fight him. He almsot kills the werebear and the fighter before the fighter lands a crit and decapitates him with a clean stroke, his head slowly rolling down as his body drops.

Then the bard runs up to the monk who's body is broken entirely and he's dying. She tries to stabalize him, but fails. His exact words as he dies:

"I'm sorry we didn't get to spend much more time together, lovely... At least I can die staring into the eyes of an angel." as he pulls off one last flirtatious joke to her before he dies.

THe other casualites the party knows is the apprentice to the boss of the bard, who died protecting his master and a friend from another town who joined to aid in the battle who was a werewolf.

In the end, all the hobgoblins were slain, with minimal casualties on the party's side. Those who were slain were very unlucky or inexperienced.

A lot of prisoners from the hobgoblins stayed in town as a thank you to the people who freed them, and may soldiers, after seeing the strength of the adventurers, stayed in town to become adventurers of their own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 05, 2015, 08:52:29 pm

Has anyone ever had experience with playing a crafter character?

My oracle, who I've stuffed away for the time being, is a minor crafter of sorts, and is the first crafter character I've ever played. Cheaper magic items is nice, but I'm not sure if how I'm going about it is right. Though apparently you have to pay in XP to craft in D&D, which you don't have to in Pathfinder.

I've been focusing on getting my spellcraft to as high as possible, with various feats. I have tried looking up some optimized builds, but haven't found too much aside from how useful different types of items are. Though I did try to calculate how cheap I could possibly get items to be, in general. I believe I have gotten to about 75% off, with 50% being the base you get off for most magic items; 15% off from three different traits, at 5% each, assuming the DM allows more than the standard two; and another 10% from the Evangelist PrC, if you choose Torag as your patron deity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 05, 2015, 11:14:48 pm

I played a 4e artificer that did nothing but craft. Guy, with the right feats and whatnot, made a level 13 item at level 8, and at level 11, he could make items for level 19s. He could never afford it, but the guy could do it easily. And the party paid him to do this because the other party crafter (who's business I aided to befriend the party when I could have easily run it into the ground) charged everyone at a huge markup.

It was stupidly silly, especially since 4e artificers get a free alchemy item per day that is equal to your level. Needless to say, the DM was happy he left the party on bad terms

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 06, 2015, 11:24:23 pm

What would you roll against for a character to realize that an NPC actually smells of brimstone rather than having just farted. Would that be a wisdom check? Some kind of knowledge check to know he precise smell of brimstone? Alchemy?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 06, 2015, 11:31:29 pm

Honestly?  Knowledge (planes)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 06, 2015, 11:43:32 pm

Well I had this idea for a character who's actually a disguised yugoloth. And I just remembered that they're supposed to smell faintly of brimstone. But then I realized that that wouldn't necessarily give them away because most people would probably just assume that they had farted.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 07, 2015, 12:05:14 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 06, 2015, 11:31:29 pm

Honestly?  Knowledge (planes)

I brimstone isn't just from hell though. I think it would be a knowledge geography, as its usually associated with volcanic areas or perhaps a profession or craft check if you have some sort of job dealing with it.

In other editions, go history, investigation or similar

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 07, 2015, 12:13:55 am

Ohh, a Yugoloth.
Knowledge (planes).  It's an extraplanar creature, and technically demonic (despite not being chaotic...)  The difference between its scent and a fart would require a high DC amount of planar knowledge, I'd say.
Or if someone has a great listen check (we folded listen and spot into perception, but listen is closer to smell than spot is) I'd say they could determine that it smells really bad.  Unless the party is good at separating OOC from IC, in which case go ahead and tell them it smells of sulphur.  Knowledge (planes) to determine why that matters.

Okay.  I'm not saying this is why I quit.  In fact, it's decidedly not.  But it certainly didn't help (despite me being on the divine side, which is *supposed* to be more survivable.  In this group, any melee was ultra lethal).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMLcy86bZNw

Also, I can't help but feel sentimental after splitting the party:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmMqg_GBFFA

Quote from: highmax28 on August 07, 2015, 12:05:14 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 06, 2015, 11:31:29 pm

Honestly?  Knowledge (planes)

I brimstone isn't just from hell though. I think it would be a knowledge geography, as its usually associated with volcanic areas or perhaps a profession or craft check if you have some sort of job dealing with it.

In other editions, go history, investigation or similar

Ehh yeah but why would a *person* smell like sulfur?  Only knowledge (Planes) can answer that.  I'd accept a knowledge (geography) for "This person smells like sulfur, that's unusual".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 07, 2015, 12:30:35 am

He said it smells like Sulfur, NOT A FART. I answered the question, not the reason behind why they smell of it, just discerning the smell

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 07, 2015, 05:28:51 am

Quote from: highmax28 on August 07, 2015, 12:05:14 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 06, 2015, 11:31:29 pm

Honestly?  Knowledge (planes)

I brimstone isn't just from hell though. I think it would be a knowledge geography, as its usually associated with volcanic areas or perhaps a profession or craft check if you have some sort of job dealing with it.

In other editions, go history, investigation or similar

I'd personally say a Craft Alchemy check to know sulphur, otherwise sulphur just smells like rotting eggs to anyone who doesn't know what it is.  Maybe Knowledge religion at a high DC to know what sulphur is.

Once you actually knew it was sulphur than it'd probably be a knowledge planes roll.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 07, 2015, 05:37:55 am

It would be common knowledge. People wouldn't know what sulfur smell like in itself, but they'd know what rotten eggs smells like, and they'd know that sulfur and thus demons smell like rotten eggs, because of the dozens of times they've heard that in their folklore. So the questions should be "is the smell faint enough that you need to be right next to him to smell it?" and "how likely is the person to jump to the conclusion that he is a demon and as opposed to just having spilt egg on himself or let out a good fart, based on the old folk stories alone?".

Or maybe just a Knowledge (Planes) check.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 07, 2015, 08:16:43 am

Once again, this is discerning the smell, not WHY he smells like it. I agree with the the craft alchemy though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 07, 2015, 08:31:24 am

Just smelling it? Either a Charisma check to hide it from the Voglodorf or a Wisdom or Search check to notice it. Wisdom because "general awareness of your surroundings" often fall under it and Search because iirc most creatures with string nose sense get that represented as a bonus to Search.

As for the DC... Well, that would depend on how you define "smell faintly".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 07, 2015, 10:44:50 am

I'm half expecting this guy one day to let one rip and the entire party, after they discover he smells of brimstone, flip their shit over the smell getting stronger

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 08, 2015, 04:07:58 am

Elemental sulfur (brimstone) doesn't actually smell like rotten eggs though. You're confusing it with hydrogen sulfide.

Sulfur apparently smells similar to a match (admittedly a much more menacing aroma), and I don't think people would be familiar with it without experience in what it is, considering this is a quasi-medieval universe we're talking about. So you might need alchemical knowledge to properly identify it, since a common individual would never have smelled such a thing in all likelihood, while somebody who's worked with brimstone before would.

Wikipedia also tells me that brimstone might refer to burning sulfur, which would produce the suffocating smell of sulfur dioxide. Also probably a match-like smell, but more unpleasant (having accidentally inhaled match fumes before, I speak from limited experience). Brimstone is associated with abyssal, infernal and daemonic things largely because it's associated with Hell - and this association comes from observations of volcanic activity, where sulfur dioxide would be found emanating from the earth. People living near volcanoes in the fantasy world in question would know it as a "get the fuck away or you'll die" signal from collective experience, if the suffocating aroma wasn't enough.

So, list of people who know what brimstone smells like:
1) alchemists - average Craft (Alchemy),
2) people who are experienced with volcanoes - difficult Knowledge (Geography) or a very particular background,
3) people who have been near a fiend in their life - having bothered to smell a fiend before or difficult Knowledge (Planes).

Anywho, since it is a "faint" aroma, being unspeakably flatulent would probably cover it up anyway (that is, unless it is supernatural in origin and deliberately unmaskable).

I think you could, however, work the misguided idea that demons ought to smell like rotten eggs into the world's folklore, and that actual yugoloths and other B.O.-challenged demons would see no need to correct this idea. Folklore should very often be wrong, you know, since it is in essence an amplified rumor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 08, 2015, 04:22:46 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 08, 2015, 04:07:58 am

Elemental sulfur (brimstone) doesn't actually smell like rotten eggs though. You're confusing it with hydrogen sulfide.

Which is completely irrelevant, because the smell they (and anyone ever) are referring to when saying "smell of sulfur" is the smell of rotten eggs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 08, 2015, 04:31:37 am

Quote from: scriver on August 08, 2015, 04:22:46 am

Which is completely irrelevant, because the smell they (and anyone ever) are referring to when saying "smell of sulfur" is the smell of rotten eggs.

But they call it the smell of brimstone, not sulfur. Thus, sulfur dioxide or elemental sulfur. It makes more sense for them to smell like volcanic emissions than a sulfur spring. It's a more otherworldly, menacing scent (it was, for instance, to preachers - when they speak of fire and brimstone, you can be sure they don't mean rotten eggs with that last part).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 08, 2015, 04:38:09 am

I'm trying to think of a way to run a game set in the Witcher's universe, but the only ruleset I can think of that might fit is some sort of unholy combination of DnD 5E and Dark Heresy. Got any other suggestions for what might work?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 08, 2015, 07:22:57 am

For doing the witcher series, I'd reccomend maybe stealing http://www.ironthronepublishing.com/downloads/BladeExtractOpt.pdf (http://www.ironthronepublishing.com/downloads/BladeExtractOpt.pdf)  Blade of the Iron Throne's combat system.  It focuses heavily on maneuvers and countering the fighting style of your enemy which I feel would fit excellently with the witcher series.  ((please note that link is just the first chapter or two, you'd need to find the actual rulebook elsewhere.))

Otherwise, did you want the PC's to be witchers themselves as well?  Other than forcing cross classing in alchemist I can't think of a way to simulate witcher mutagens off the top of my head... unless you wanted to write up a full custom list.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on August 08, 2015, 07:38:45 am

Quote from: UXLZ on August 08, 2015, 04:38:09 am

I'm trying to think of a way to run a game set in the Witcher's universe, but the only ruleset I can think of that might fit is some sort of unholy combination of DnD 5E and Dark Heresy. Got any other suggestions for what might work?

I don't suppose it's going to be a Play by Post game here, is it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 08, 2015, 07:51:11 am

Honestly speaking, no idea. I'm exploring possibilities for even running the game, and it could be hosted here, or it could be done IRL with those of my friends who are quite into Witcher's lore.

Thanks for the suggestion Kila.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 04:41:04 pm

Antidisease really? Antidisease?

That is the most ridiculous alchemical thing I have ever seen in pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 08, 2015, 04:43:22 pm

Sounds quite literal, really.
Antitoxin, counters poisons. Antidisease, counters disease.
Don't see the problem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 04:54:33 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 08, 2015, 04:43:22 pm

Sounds quite literal, really.
Antitoxin, counters poisons. Antidisease, counters disease.
Don't see the problem.

Yes but what IS it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 08, 2015, 05:00:48 pm

Extract of fruit from the orange tree.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 08, 2015, 05:02:49 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 04:54:33 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 08, 2015, 04:43:22 pm

Sounds quite literal, really.
Antitoxin, counters poisons. Antidisease, counters disease.
Don't see the problem.

Yes but what IS it?

It cures or prevents disease.

If you're asking what ingredients it has, or how it works, I will point out alchemy, and it is explicitly described as magical in nature.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 05:04:33 pm

Alchemy isn't magical :P

It literally is modern medicine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 08, 2015, 05:07:40 pm

I can't seem to find this item. The closest I can find is anti-plague, which gives a bonus on saves against disease for an hour if you are not infected, or roll twice and take the better result when you next attempt a save against a disease you are already afflicted by.

I can only imagine that it is some form of antibiotics or medieval penicillin. Or some bullshit elixir made of nanobots if you use the technology guide. Alternatively, a concoction made of fine-sized fey rangers with favoured enemy (disease) that do literal battle in your body.

Though in Pathfinder, the Alchemist class's alchemy is literal magic. It's why their extracts only work for them; they imbue it with their own magic essence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 05:09:47 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on August 08, 2015, 05:07:40 pm

Though in Pathfinder, the Alchemist class's alchemy is literal magic. It's why their extracts only work for them; they imbue it with their own magic essence.

Pathfinder... is quite unclear whether or not it is actually magic sometimes. Even down to not letting Alchemist spells count for creating items

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 08, 2015, 05:13:05 pm

Quote

Whether secreted away in a smoky basement laboratory or gleefully experimenting in a well-respected school of magic, the alchemist is often regarded as being just as unstable, unpredictable, and dangerous as the concoctions he brews. While some creators of alchemical items content themselves with sedentary lives as merchants, providing tindertwigs and smokesticks, the true alchemist answers a deeper calling. Rather than cast magic like a spellcaster, the alchemist captures his own magic potential within liquids and extracts he creates, infusing his chemicals with virulent power to grant him impressive skill with poisons, explosives, and all manner of self-transformative magic.

Role: The alchemist's reputation is not softened by his exuberance (some would say dangerous recklessness) in perfecting his magical extracts and potion-like creations, infusing these substances with magic siphoned from his aura and using his own body as experimental stock. Nor is it mollified by the alchemist's almost gleeful passion for building explosive bombs and discovering strange new poisons and methods for their use. These traits, while making him a liability and risk for most civilized organizations and institutions of higher learning, seem to fit quite well with most adventuring groups.

It perhaps leans towards the more "is magic" than "isn't".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 05:18:54 pm

True.

It still is impressively ridiculous in concept to me (especially since frankly... even Penicillin isn't anywhere close to that good)

But honestly beyond "What the wackado is this?" I don't have much else of a opinion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 09, 2015, 02:46:19 am

Well, it's half magic medicine, half Save-or-X, half NO SAVE FUCK YOU DIE HORRIBLY

At least that's 3.5e. It was only stopped by splash weapons being horribly niche and a pain to use, poison implementation being garbage and often contradictory, and clever DMs banning most of the fun stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 09, 2015, 02:52:31 am

Well poison was usually outright illegal in dungeons and dragons (something... kind of unusual for the setting since a lot of poisons had other uses or were just run off from other processes), so you couldn't just freely buy it.

Even with, for example, Drow Poison. It might be cheap but where are you going to get your hands on it?

Unfortunately the books requires you to infer this...

I just prefer to ban the more broken poisons then need to keep tract of the economy that lets people make it with availability. There is only so much work I am willing to do in a campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 09, 2015, 05:19:20 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 05:18:54 pm

True.

It still is impressively ridiculous in concept to me (especially since frankly... even Penicillin isn't anywhere close to that good)

But honestly beyond "What the wackado is this?" I don't have much else of a opinion.

Penicillin isn't magic, either, when alchemy is.

Remove disease is a third level spell for clerics, druids and  rangers. Do you think that's ridiculous, too?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 09, 2015, 06:27:59 am

Aye as I said in the game during that time... alchemy is certainly magic, even the more mundane version my slayer does.  Considering for the same cost in materials I can make something that causes me to regenerate at an incredibly rapid rate and heal fatal blows instantaneously... two saving throws for disease isn't too far fetched.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 09, 2015, 02:03:28 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 05:04:33 pm

Alchemy isn't magical :P

It literally is modern medicine.

I thought Alchemy was Nuclear Chemistry

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 09, 2015, 11:24:40 pm

I'd like to see the traditional association of kobolds with the metal cobalt explored (which is a real thing BTW; it's how cobalt got it's name). Maybe they could carry widia (cobalt cemented tungsten carbide) weapons and armor, or in a high tech setting they could be obsessed with enhanced fallout nuclear weapons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 10, 2015, 12:05:43 am

I may explore that in one of my settings in the future myself.  I've already got one where kobolds are actually offshoots of dragons (extremely distant offshoots), so I might use 'cobalt' dragons as the breakaway point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2015, 02:05:43 am

Seeming as dnd-esque kobolds have very little to do with German folklore kobolds, that would be pretty hard. In real life, kobolds were basically the house elf equivalent of mines and mountains (and also ships, for some reason). Gygax just did his usual thing of "let's 'borrow' a word for [fey creature] from another language and force it on a critter of our own creation that has little to do with the original lore" and made them a "goblin, but weaker and also a dog". Then came the whole dragonic-ancestry change in 3rd ed and diverted them further away. The only thing they have in common with folklore-kobolds these days is basically "they hang out in mines".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on August 10, 2015, 02:29:46 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 08, 2015, 05:04:33 pm

Alchemy isn't magical :P

It literally is modern medicine.

NO NO NO.

Alchemy is very much magic.
Modern chemistry came out of it, after the Renaissance.

Alchemy ascribes some radical hoodoo to various substances, such as celestial energies and properties, and is all kinds of fubar.


Personally, I would like to see a pen and paper that was PROPERLY researched on this.  (has studied actually practiced magic systems/religions for anthropological reasons)  The arbitrary materials requirements found in most pen and paper game systems are just game makers thinking "Hey, that sounds magical, let's use that!" or "Yeah, that's pretty expensive for a thing-- that should make the potion super cost prohibitive to make."

That's because an actual investigation into what the consequences of a world with real magic processes, leveraging those processes to make alchemy a real thing, is a rabbit hole they dont seem to want to explore very deeply. (Probably because it would produce a world setting far too alien for players to be comfortable in.)

Think about it--  Alchemy (historical) attempted to explore the properties of physical matter, and of natural energy phenomena. "Magic" was the mindset in which alchemy formed, and as a consequence, historical alchemy is deeply joined at the hip with magical hoodoo. But what if the hoodoo wasnt hoodoo at all?

Imagine for a moment that something with "aspects of venus" as a property actually did, in fact, have some resonant or other property with some very real celestial energy being radiated from the nearby planet venus-- and that the resulting alchemical formulation could harness and use that energy for some purpose.  Suddenly, the implications and applications of alchemy become radically clear to a magical practitioner.  Suddenly, a potion or other alchemically derived substance may be able to radically change the way magic works in the local vicinity by manipulating lots of magical aspects around itself-- just from existing.

You could have a geomancer that normally needs a good flow of telluric energy (say, from a ley-line) be able to make earthquakes willy nilly, because he has a little charm made by an alchemist that is able to bend other kinds of energy into telluric energy, via some complicated internal process, that completely follows all the rules for those magical forces.  The possibilities here are staggering.

What do we get instead?  short shrift.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 10, 2015, 05:19:07 am

It isn't that, it is more that sometimes they try to separate "Magic", things that are overtly magical, and Alchemy, which is more magical science but is otherwise science.

But I'll put it another way. Detect Magic has no effect on antidisease. It doesn't show up as magic. Meaning even if we are to say antidisease is magical, it is a form of perfectly natural magic. The same kind of magic that lets you burn bread to make toast. Even going as far as to say that they are "magic" via superstition (Hey no one knows how Iron Oxide works to make flashbangs, so we will call it magic!)

But then there is the alchemy that pushes that boundary and becomes explicitly magical... but usually they are mixed in with magic anyhow (Like Flesh Golems)

---

As for REAL life alchemy. It was a pseudo science at best. It wasn't purely magic or purely science and a lot of their explanations weren't "MAGIC!" but rather a mistaken believe on the elemental make up of the universe.

Pathfinder alchemy though...

Antidisease will always seem like a ridiculous "Well we already have antivenom, I mean disease is just a bunch of points right?" without any real consideration for whether or not it fit the setting. Either that or it was created for the future tech game and people just ported over its stuff (which would explain quite a few of them honestly). It just seems horribly out of place... And Pathfinder already has extremely pathetic diseases.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2015, 05:27:13 am

It is not the same kind of "magic" that turns bread into toast. You do not "captures his own magic potential" inside the bread to make it toast. That it is inconsistent with other types of magic (ie doesn't show up under Detect Magic, if that is true), does not magic it not-magic, and it does not make it mundane, it makes it magic that works differently.

edit: wordchoice

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 10, 2015, 08:20:56 am

Yeah. Golems don't show up under detect magic either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 10, 2015, 10:01:11 am

Quote from: Bohandas on August 10, 2015, 08:20:56 am

Yeah. Golems don't show up under detect magic either.

Damn, that's a good point.  But the casting to create a golem (wish or miracle, plus other stuff) does.  I couldn't find any sign (3.5e) that the alchemy process shows up as magic.  The only thing linking it to spells is... kinda weird.   You have to be a spellcaster.  Not sure if 1 level of ranger counts, I assume you have to actually unlock a spell level.  Your caster type(s) or levels don't affect your alchemy at all.

So I'd like to believe it's experimental science (like arcane magic, actually...) but only people with "opened minds" can figure it out.  It's kinda a nonsensical restriction in any case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2015, 10:14:37 am

If I understood it correctly we were talking about the Pathfinder class Alchemist, though, not just any user of craft (Alchemy).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 10, 2015, 10:14:37 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 10, 2015, 12:05:43 am

I may explore that in one of my settings in the future myself.  I've already got one where kobolds are actually offshoots of dragons (extremely distant offshoots), so I might use 'cobalt' dragons as the breakaway point.

I forgot to mention, this sounds really cool!
I wonder if you could do something with cobalt itself.  Maybe kobolds know the trick of coaxing it from the rock, leading to some very distinctive glassware and weapons.  As far as I can tell, cobalt-alloy weapons wouldn't be particularly great... or blue...  But this is fantasy after all.  Maybe mine spirits (kobolds in the original since) stick with the material and give it properties.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2015, 10:20:01 am

Quote from: scriver on August 10, 2015, 10:14:37 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 10, 2015, 10:14:37 am

I am the ninja class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 10, 2015, 10:25:13 am

Wait what the hell
When I posted that, I got an alert for a preceding post...  But it was my own!
Guess I saw wrong, I thought it was a consequence of multiple windows though.
You ninja'd me and I didn't even see you, there's a -20 penalty for sniping like that!

Or wait, you actually didn't ninja me at all but you tricked me into thinking you did.  That's like, advanced ninjistics.  AKA ninjitsu?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2015, 10:37:09 am

My phone shows us both as having posted at 16:14:37, with my post ninjing in ahead of yours. OR MAYBE THIS IS JUST A DIVERSION AND I WAS BEHIND YOU ALL THE TIME

*Sneak Attack*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: wierd on August 10, 2015, 11:53:06 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 10, 2015, 10:14:37 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 10, 2015, 12:05:43 am

I may explore that in one of my settings in the future myself.  I've already got one where kobolds are actually offshoots of dragons (extremely distant offshoots), so I might use 'cobalt' dragons as the breakaway point.

I forgot to mention, this sounds really cool!
I wonder if you could do something with cobalt itself.  Maybe kobolds know the trick of coaxing it from the rock, leading to some very distinctive glassware and weapons.  As far as I can tell, cobalt-alloy weapons wouldn't be particularly great... or blue...  But this is fantasy after all.  Maybe mine spirits (kobolds in the original since) stick with the material and give it properties.

Cobalt makes most steel preparations very brittle. That's where the whole "metal tainted by kobalds" thing is from-- In the darkness of the mines, the slightly off-blue irridecence of the cobalt ores looked like shining eyeballs (thus, "a creature!"), and the metal produced from these mines was not fit for smithing, because it would crack and break so easily (cursed!).  With more modern steel formulations, it is sometimes used with nickel, vanadium, chromium and copper to produce stainless steels with good qualities.  It is also used with nickel to produce "alnico" magnets. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alnico)

Having kobalds not be mentally deficient rabble, but instead just chaotic evil little shits with actual skills and crafts, could be an interesting twist. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 10, 2015, 02:38:12 pm

Well, the kobolds of Vengeance (the planet and campaign setting that I created) are descended from metallic dragon stock (so they actually have a predisposition towards good alignments) and are extremely skilled in crafting, but their population is extremely low so they don't have a society per se, just clan groups living in various places around the world.  It would be cool to find a way to add some nods to the original folklore in their story tho'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 10, 2015, 08:37:32 pm

There was a great roll-to-dodge comic about kobolds on MSPA's forum a while ago, but most of the images are broken now

http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?46495-Everignot

Title: Mundus Mutatis
Post by: Rex Invictus on August 11, 2015, 11:09:53 am

Link (https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/29545/mundus-mutatis)

Quote

Your entire lives, you have lived comfortably in the Home. It has shielded your family for generations from the demons that ruined the world outside. Carved from stone and filled with all sorts of magical brilliance, the Home had everything you needed. Food, water, shelter was all at your fingertips.

Was being the most important word.

The crops failed this year. Failed horribly. The soil was barren and empty. The only thing you could rely on was the meat producer and even that rarely worked out correctly.

You have to leave your Home. You've found your way to the exit and, although you've been warned your entire lives that there's nothing more than a broken fiery wasteland outside, you must leave in order to survive.

--------------

This is a campaign where players start out as a milling crowd of level 0 civilians and hopefully turn into something that can survive. Imagine a magical Fallout and you'll start to get the right idea.

We'll be playing Dungeon Crawl Classics and each player will get 4 0 level characters to play with. They'll probably die, so don't get too attached. They are, however, your lives. Protect them, as it'll be rare for anyone else to turn up to join you later on.

If you want a campaign where exploration of a new world, deadliness around every corner and grey shifting morality is key, join Mundus Mutatis today!

--------------

If possible, I'd like to run more than once a week and I'm extremely flexible on what times I can play (at least up until mid September). Please apply if you are the same. Don't not apply if you're not, just something to keep in mind.

Basically, I'm running a text based roleplaying campaign and the reactions from Roll20 have been... Tepid, at best.

I'm looking for another pair of players to round out the group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on August 13, 2015, 08:48:39 am

Hey folks. Just wanted to pop in and say hi to other DMs and PCs...

I myself am a DM for a group of players at a gamestore I go to each Thursday, where I do a special Dungeon Crawler RPG styled game, with random loot and random dungeons each floor they travel down deeper and deeper, well they would if it wasn't still early game...

But thats not the thing, a couple of players accidently slipped down a floor earlier then intended, they set of the obvious trap that originally was going to lead to an escape challenge but due to the night ending and bouncing off one of their side comments, I had them drop down a floor and such. I don't know why, it was a good idea at the time T_T...

Now while the rest of the party finished the first floor, which wasn't all that far from being done before packup time, those that fell down a level now find themselves looking at a "Giantantic Iron Obelix" that I described as Skyscraper in size to show that even though they were going down deeper, each floor didn't follow any natural rule of well, physics (the dungeon is special)...

Now I was originally left thinking about how handle this floors system, and was stuck with any idea. Then on the way home my friend who was Carpooling with me started talking about old Comics and we found we both had an affinity with the old Asterix and Obelix comics. And then the idea for the floor struck me. One of their Comics, which was a Film to Book styled bit of work was that of "The 12 Tasks of Asterix" one that he had never heard of, which was great, as I plan to introduce the Task that was known as "The place that sends you Mad" as the floors challenge. See this for an idea of the trials... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtEkUmYecnk

So now I am spending the week planning this Floor and its FUN...
Anyone want to help :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 13, 2015, 09:29:24 am

Sounds fun, I'll try and join in if I'm around over the weekend. It'll be a reasonable exercise for my own coming-at-some-point game. Which is still HEAVILY (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wf35Fko4CNJ55FjICDAzqJReq5f4t4lREiwUALxamY4/edit?usp=sharing) in the planning stage (bonus cookies since you might learn my real name through that link since Google is a BITCH). I've got a lot of thoughts but have yet to commit them to paper/docs. Everything in that is subject to massive changes, and I'll probably have it worded in a somewhat less abusive way when I put it up on B12.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 16, 2015, 02:27:30 am

And anther good solid session, players are moving on their own now (and working to advance the story.)  In addition to getting some of the legwork done researching and understanding the prophecy, they decided to start actively trying to advance said prophecy in their own direction.

Paladin has probably done the largest share of the work on understanding the prophecy (all the river of time stuff that goes with it), and the thief has also stepped up her game.

The fighter/mage is still going strong (he keeps joking that events are pushing him into things, but in reality everything has been his own choice.)

Everything considered probably one of the most productive sessions so far, looking forward to what they'll do next week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 16, 2015, 02:31:13 am

I am trying to get a grip over this adventure path but so far I am flubbing it quite a bit... But hey, I can try.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 16, 2015, 02:34:53 am

NFO, you should join my campaign when it goes up. :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 16, 2015, 02:40:38 am

Interesting premise so far UXLZ, but none of those systems are ones I play.  Also, I just don't do that kind of game online, I'm not well suited to it, sorry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 16, 2015, 04:34:54 am

Oh, are you a pathfinder guy?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 16, 2015, 05:23:04 am

Nope, full-bore 3.0 and Rifts/Palladium products.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 16, 2015, 05:26:36 am

3.0? I thought most people used 3.5. >_>

Also, what's Rifts/Palladium?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 16, 2015, 05:56:21 am

Rifts is Palladium Books flagship product.  The palladium games are somewhat cohesive, using a universal (almost) set of rules for each.  Rifts itself is a post-apocalyptic Earth, where the bombs just let loose the dormant magical fields of the world, so you have dragons fighting soldiers in power armor and interdimensional travelers with superpowers duking it out with giant robots.

I found a lot of the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 to be unnecessary, and Pathfinder is like thatx10 to me.  So I just stick with 3.0.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 17, 2015, 01:39:46 am

Oddly enough 5e makes a lot more sense to me then 3.5 ever did as far as the point of pathetic guards.

In 3.5 they quickly become completely superfluous except for natural 20s... While in 5e they pretty much stay relevant, a group of guards shooting at a heavily armored minotaur actually weaken it quite a bit.

It actually managed to make Minions (weak pathetic creatures meant to weaken or beat down a target in mass) viable.

But I am quickly finding out that while I love that, it is what a lot of people outright hate. Goodness do people hate the fact that they don't just wade through weak enemies as easily as a fish wades through water.

I dunno I guess I always liked the Adventurers as a sort of smart, intelligent, and strategic group who are like a magically enhanced hit team. Versus a bunch of super demigods.

It does dramatically change the feel I'll tell you. Then again I've usually never got to the "I'll melt your brains" levels and even then because everything has to scale up it usually meant I didn't feel that strong anyway (Because typically you aren't going to fight the guards you had trouble with, 10 levels later).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 02:12:52 am

Technically (almost all) fish are totally incapable of wading through water, since they have no legs with which to wade.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 17, 2015, 03:19:13 am

I wonder if it is possible to run a 5e game where you don't really get characters but squads of soldiers and creatures.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 17, 2015, 03:21:42 am

Yeah.
They did release a supplement about running larger battles, so that might be helpful as a base to work it on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 17, 2015, 03:33:03 am

I mean one of the aspects of 5e that 3.5 doesn't have is that very few things become outdated, just often no where close to as good.

So even against a dragon having 20 "Guards" is still something.. Albeit probably not too much of something, but still something.

Heck every player could be a head of their own guild or something...

Even costs become a factor at that stage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 09:40:13 am

Here's a taster of some of my upcoming campaign's rule set. Tell me if anything seems a bit extreme or overdone. I'll be trying to make stuff more concise when it actually goes up, of course (for instance, Gritty Realism and Slow Natural Healing could probably be in the same spoiler.)

Spoiler: Proficiency Variant (click to show/hide)

Attack Rolls, Attack Rolls and Saving Throws the character is proficient in will instead have a dice rolled based on the proficiency score and added d20 roll. Expertise makes that dice be rolled twice. For example, a second level Rogue who has expertise and proficiency in Sneak with a DEX of 16 will have their sneak checks rolled as 1d20 + 2d4 + 3, rather than 1d20 + 7.

Spoiler: Fear And Horror (click to show/hide)

Fear: When confronting threats a creature has no hope of overcoming, a Wisdom saving throw will be rolled with a DC set according to circumstance. A failed roll means becoming frightened for 1 minute, with a repeat of the saving throw at the end of each of that character's turns, which ends the effect if passed. This will be... Quite uncommon.

Horror: More than simple fright. The revulsion and anguish upon something completely contrary to normal understanding, what can and should occur, or discovering a dreadful truth. The saving throw is Charisma, and the DC is once again dependent on circumstances. Failed means short term or long-term madness that I'll decide or roll for.

Spoiler: Slow Natural Healing (click to show/hide)

Hit points aren't regained via Long Rests, a character may spend Hit Dice at the end just like a normal rest.

Spoiler: Gritty Realism (click to show/hide)

A short rest is 4 hours, and a long rest is 3 days.

Spoiler: Initiative (click to show/hide)

Initiative is rolled with 3d6 rather than 1d20. The intent of this is to keep variation while making a creature's speed or readiness have more effect.

Getting knocked out in battle sets initiative to 0.

Spoiler: Lingering Injuries (click to show/hide)

Depending on what happens, I may decide to add a lingering injury effect from the DMG. A good example of when one is likely occur is when a creature goes from Max HP to 0 in a single round or attack, or roll a 1 on a death saving throw.

Spoiler: System Shock (click to show/hide)

When a creature suffer damage equal to half or more of their Max HP they roll a CON saving throw, and upon failing suffer an effect such as one of these.
- Drop to 0 hit points.
- Drop to 0 hit points, but stable.
- Stunned until the end of their next turn.
- Can't take reactions and has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks until the end of their next turn.
- Can't take reactions.

Spoiler: Dude, Where's My Spells? (click to show/hide)

All planar-shifting, long distance teleportation and resurrection magic (or anything that involves communicating with the dead or so forth) is banned due to conflict with setting. If you die, you’re dead. Zombie-raising type necromancy is still allowed, of course.

Spoiler: The Iron Curtain (click to show/hide)

This may be the thing that makes several players decide not to apply for this game. Oh well, I reckon it's worth it.
Everything will be rolled behind-the-scenes by me, and you guys won't see any of the results directly bar a few things where it's necessary (initiative and how much damage you take.)
The goal of this is similar to the goal of rolling stealth/insight/etc checks outside of the player's eyes. That is, avoiding situations like "Oops I rolled a one for stealth, better not try and be sneaky this time" and "Oh, a natural 20, whatever my insight shows up is almost certainly true."

Plus, it puts the focus where (I believe) it should be. The RP.

Spoiler: Dying is Easier... Sorta (click to show/hide)

Creatures will die upon failing two death saving throws, rather than three. However, rolling a natural one won't count as two failures, instead counting as a single failure and causing the creature to end up with a lingering injury.

Spoiler: A Little Fate Goes A Long Way (click to show/hide)

Here's probably the most major homebrew rule, and I'm inspired by Dark Heresy for this one. Each PC will start the game off with a certain number of "Fate Points." Upon making any check that you have to roll 1d20 for, you may choose to spend a Fate Point to gain advantage for that roll.
However, in accordance with the Iron Curtain, no one will know how many fate points they have, and they also serve another important function... Stopping you from dying. In the event that a PC's death is certain, a number of fate points dependent on the severity of the system will be used to save them. For example, getting shanked by a skeleton will probably only cost a single point to be spared from. Falling from orbit, or dropping into a pit of lava without protection, however... May not be quite so cheap, and in some cases may be more than what you can afford. (In which case the character will either receive major injuries if they aren't overspending by that much, or simply die as per norm if it's more than a quick loan might be able to cover.

Fate Points will be regained at times where I see fit to have you regain them. It might be because you slew the Demi-Lich by tossing his phylactery into the fires of Mt. Doom, or it might be because you won a pie eating contest. Regardless, sometimes you might get a few RP hints about the current status of your fate points."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 17, 2015, 10:21:00 am

Well, now I know I definitely wouldn't play in that campaign.  Nothing I can see that's really problematic or that seems massively overdone, but it just doesn't sound much like fun.

Still, I hope you and your players enjoy yourselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on August 17, 2015, 01:21:10 pm

Not sure about the initiative using 3d6 - I've learnt over the years that 3d6 is VERY highly skewed to the centre, even moreso once filtered thru perception, and constantly having the same rolls without much chance of breaking loose takes a bit of the fun out, IMO. Also, it makes any initiative bonuses rather more extreme :P

Also, with the fate points, I feel hiding them isn't the best idea, as it makes life somewhat hard on the players in an unfun way. If you really want to obscure it, at least give a permanent descriptive line, such as "Very few, a handful" etc, to allow the players to have some control over their management.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 17, 2015, 02:04:10 pm

Sounds kinda... overdone, really. The system is pretty solid as is, and I'm not convinced of the benefits of some of the changes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on August 17, 2015, 03:18:16 pm

If you think thats over done, I should really get to work sorting out my Nautical Campagin's settings and rules.

Plot = Synopsis.
Magic is disappearing in the world, first with items, then beings and finally spells themselves. Dwarven Fortresses and Cities sealed themselves away from the outside world, those that approach them are never seen again, those Dwarves that were left outside became Outcast and changed, they now focus mainly on earning enough Gold to buy their way back to their homes. Elves, due to the effect of magic waning, have found themselves becoming susceptible to a leaf is commonly drunk/smoked by the other races. This leaving them in a state much like the IRL Drug known as "scopolamine". They end up becoming slaves to the Human race and others that can afford to own one. Gnomes have all but disappeared all together and Halforcs being slaughtered either by fear or from each other in battlepits.
Adventurers becoming bored with the lack of adventure and such due to Dungeons being conquered quickly and in large numbers, Dragons and other magical challenges disappearing and such too doesn't help. But a promise of new adventure as a new landmass has appeared. What was previously a magical storm that prevented anyone of passing through now fallen into nothing due to the magical drain, the new land has been opened to the greed of man and ships moving in. With strange folk living there, looking like that of deamons and drake (Tieflings and Dragonborn) and new places to loot and use for resources. Things will change...

Think a combination of Age of Sails and the discovery of America/Caribbean/Asia for theme. The idea of the Carribbean for the location and Asia for the people in the way they differ. Wish I could explain clearler tbh but I am currently fighting the ZZZzzz...

"Cons"
Magic Quality is LOW. Magic Classes have a chance of their spells fizzling or causing WildMagic effects to happen, magical items are limited to rare special occasions.
Races are limited within certain parameters. Tiefling/Dragonborn/Dwarf are NPC only. Elves are considered Slaves in way of social standings and Halforcs and Gnomes are Rare to the point of being unable to pick them as a PC Race.
Classes are limited in way of what is considered Western over Eastern in certain ways, eg Monk is compleatly out of the question, Warlock might be as well. Ideally a limit on how themed the Class is tbh.

"Pros"
Heh, haven't really got much other then the fact that unless Story Events are triggered, the whole game could have sessions of player initiated things happening. The Players will have a chance to choose between three lifestyles. 1: Pirate, 2: Navy, 3: Freelance. Each have their own sidestories and bonuses and such. But mainly if the players what to make money to buy a better Ship they can instead of going after the Big Bad...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 17, 2015, 03:41:23 pm

The short rest span might be nerfing a few classes to hell and back... Given that a short rest is pretty much meant to be a breather as opposed to an outright nap.

I'd never touch Warlocks under that ruleset...  The entire gimmick of that class is that it basically is back up to full strength during each and every short rest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 05:38:06 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 17, 2015, 10:21:00 am

Well, now I know I definitely wouldn't play in that campaign.  Nothing I can see that's really problematic or that seems massively overdone, but it just doesn't sound much like fun.

Still, I hope you and your players enjoy yourselves.

I see, so you're more one for the dice than for the story and experience? What I'm trying to do with this rule set more so than anything is make it so the players have real reason to avoid fighting outside of me throwing over leveled stuff in their face. Taking the focus off the dice and onto what's actually happening is my biggest concern. It isn't finished, though, unfortunately.

Can you actually tell me what it is that makes it sound 'unfun'?

Quote from: Neon

The short rest span might be nerfing a few classes to hell and back... Given that a short rest is pretty much meant to be a breather as opposed to an outright nap.

I'd never touch Warlocks under that ruleset...  The entire gimmick of that class is that it basically is back up to full strength during each and every short rest.

Hmm, I guess I can go back to DnD's regular rest times if I'm making it so that HP doesn't automatically go back to full... Does making hit dice expended during a long rest restore an additional con modifier or two HP sound alright, as well? I really, really want to avoid the regular DnD "Oh, I just got nearly killed by a dragon 8 times, but I slept it off and now I'm strong as ever."

Quote from: Gig

Sounds kinda... overdone, really. The system is pretty solid as is, and I'm not convinced of the benefits of some of the changes.

Isn't everything I do overdone?
All changes have benefits, some have downsides that I'm going to try to fix. I wouldn't be enacting them if there wasn't a point, would I?

@Sjm: Hmm, I guess I could do that, it sounds reasonable enough. The reason I'm hiding them is because I don't want anyone ever getting complacent. Well, people wouldn't want to waste them anyway, so it shouldn't matter. I'll use a permanent descriptor, then, since letting them see the actual number would ruin the porpoise.

Quote from: Neyvn

Elves are considered Slaves in way of social standings

We're off to see the whizzard, the wonder whizzard of oz! (I'm always leery of seeing an entire race of slaves in a campaign, especially if they're elves. >_>)
Why are they considered slaves?
How does the stigma translate to half-elves?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 17, 2015, 07:11:47 pm

Actually, most of my issue with the ruleset above is its focus on numbers.

I play fast and hard with the rules, I don't go set in stone until I have to make a call, then it becomes dogma.  Half the time I don't even roll.

The system you outlined has huge overhead on dice rolling, even if it is meant to facilitate roleplaying over 'rollplaying'.

Everything in my games is story and experience, most of the time dice will be rolled once or twice a session (unless there is actual combat, then it gets very crunchy.)

The part that seems 'not fun' with the above is the DF level of realism.  While waiting four weeks for a broken bone to mend is realistic, and something I would do, the focus on 'don't get hurt or you're fucked' just sounds unpleasant from my perspective.  I know that there are players that appreciate that roguelike level of hardcore, but I'm just not one of them.  I'm not trying to say there is anything wrong with what you want to accomplish, because there really isn't, just that it isn't something I personally would have fun playing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 17, 2015, 07:25:19 pm

I'll insert a bit-by-bit initial response.

Quote from: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 09:40:13 am

Here's a taster of some of my upcoming campaign's rule set. Tell me if anything seems a bit extreme or overdone. I'll be trying to make stuff more concise when it actually goes up, of course (for instance, Gritty Realism and Slow Natural Healing could probably be in the same spoiler.)

Spoiler: Proficiency Variant (click to show/hide)

Attack Rolls, Attack Rolls and Saving Throws the character is proficient in will instead have a dice rolled based on the proficiency score and added d20 roll. Expertise makes that dice be rolled twice. For example, a second level Rogue who has expertise and proficiency in Sneak with a DEX of 16 will have their sneak checks rolled as 1d20 + 2d4 + 3, rather than 1d20 + 7.

Seems like pointless complication. You've already got the random element built into the system, changing proficiency to a die roll rather than a flat number just means that players' supposed core abilities are less reliable and more inconsistent. Why is this necessary? What purpose does it serve?

Spoiler: Fear And Horror (click to show/hide)

Fear: When confronting threats a creature has no hope of overcoming, a Wisdom saving throw will be rolled with a DC set according to circumstance. A failed roll means becoming frightened for 1 minute, with a repeat of the saving throw at the end of each of that character's turns, which ends the effect if passed. This will be... Quite uncommon.

Horror: More than simple fright. The revulsion and anguish upon something completely contrary to normal understanding, what can and should occur, or discovering a dreadful truth. The saving throw is Charisma, and the DC is once again dependent on circumstances. Failed means short term or long-term madness that I'll decide or roll for.

Is this supposed to be CoC? Basically what you're saying is that you're going to throw encounters at players that they aren't going to be able to defeat, attach an arbitrary and unknown DC to it, and then nerf a lot of their means of escape if they fail. Moreover, you're eliminating player agency by using a condition which forces them to flee using whatever resources they have.

Worse, you add the same situation, but then in addition to removing agency in the short term, you also arbitrarily inflict semipermanent debuffs on players' characters because you decided to throw them at an encounter they had no chance of beating without even giving them the chance to flee. I haven't read the rest, but I suspect/hope this section is going to be the worst. This sort of thing is the type of houserule a control-freak killer DM would use to prevent his players from having fun or making their own decisions. It's not always bad to present players with hooks that lead to an encounter that they really shouldn't attempt, but they should have the option of confronting it despite the warning signs, and the chance, however slim, of pulling out a victory if there's even the slightest mechanical possibility of such.

Spoiler: Slow Natural Healing (click to show/hide)

Hit points aren't regained via Long Rests, a character may spend Hit Dice at the end just like a normal rest.

Not terrible in a void, but given that the rest of the rules sound like you're going to be flooding players with encounters they're not ready for, it doesn't exactly look good. At least you followed up with a semicoherent reason for it. Smells like "muh realisms" to me. Why is it a flat "You cannot heal" rather than reduced healing?

Spoiler: Gritty Realism (click to show/hide)

A short rest is 4 hours, and a long rest is 3 days.

Read the PHB more thoroughly before you houserule. As has already been pointed out, this heavily nerfs several classes for no good reason. No, "But muh realisms" doesn't count as a good reason.

Spoiler: Initiative (click to show/hide)

Initiative is rolled with 3d6 rather than 1d20. The intent of this is to keep variation while making a creature's speed or readiness have more effect.

Getting knocked out in battle sets initiative to 0.

Dice pools are sometimes a good system to use. This case isn't one because of the way you're using it. It's going to average out at mediocre rolls every single time, and it's going to feel boring as hell. The second part is reasonable.

Spoiler: Lingering Injuries (click to show/hide)

Depending on what happens, I may decide to add a lingering injury effect from the DMG. A good example of when one is likely occur is when a creature goes from Max HP to 0 in a single round or attack, or roll a 1 on a death saving throw.

More of the same killer DM muh realisms crap from before. You're arbitrarily removing player agency and crippling characters because you want to.

Spoiler: System Shock (click to show/hide)

When a creature suffer damage equal to half or more of their Max HP they roll a CON saving throw, and upon failing suffer an effect such as one of these.
- Drop to 0 hit points.
- Drop to 0 hit points, but stable.
- Stunned until the end of their next turn.
- Can't take reactions and has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks until the end of their next turn.
- Can't take reactions.

See above re: Removing agency and killer DMing.

Spoiler: Dude, Where's My Spells? (click to show/hide)

All planar-shifting, long distance teleportation and resurrection magic (or anything that involves communicating with the dead or so forth) is banned due to conflict with setting. If you die, you’re dead. Zombie-raising type necromancy is still allowed, of course.

Workable enough, but if you really want a low-magic setting, ban casters and use few/none as enemies and NPCs instead of nerfing half the classes in the game.

Spoiler: The Iron Curtain (click to show/hide)

This may be the thing that makes several players decide not to apply for this game. Oh well, I reckon it's worth it.
Everything will be rolled behind-the-scenes by me, and you guys won't see any of the results directly bar a few things where it's necessary (initiative and how much damage you take.)
The goal of this is similar to the goal of rolling stealth/insight/etc checks outside of the player's eyes. That is, avoiding situations like "Oops I rolled a one for stealth, better not try and be sneaky this time" and "Oh, a natural 20, whatever my insight shows up is almost certainly true."

Plus, it puts the focus where (I believe) it should be. The RP.

This is a massive red flag for any player. Even if you are honestly just trying to focus on roleplay, the way this will come off to any player ever is that you're a killer DM who doesn't want his players to notice him fudging rolls. If a DM ever said this to me when I joined their group, I would walk out laughing at them. Among other things, it also removes vital information from the players; if they fail a check, not knowing what they rolled for it means that they don't know if it's worth their time to keep trying.

Spoiler: Dying is Easier... Sorta (click to show/hide)

Creatures will die upon failing two death saving throws, rather than three. However, rolling a natural one won't count as two failures, instead counting as a single failure and causing the creature to end up with a lingering injury.

Again, muh realisms and killer DMing.

Spoiler: A Little Fate Goes A Long Way (click to show/hide)

Here's probably the most major homebrew rule, and I'm inspired by Dark Heresy for this one. Each PC will start the game off with a certain number of "Fate Points." Upon making any check that you have to roll 1d20 for, you may choose to spend a Fate Point to gain advantage for that roll.
However, in accordance with the Iron Curtain, no one will know how many fate points they have, and they also serve another important function... Stopping you from dying. In the event that a PC's death is certain, a number of fate points dependent on the severity of the system will be used to save them. For example, getting shanked by a skeleton will probably only cost a single point to be spared from. Falling from orbit, or dropping into a pit of lava without protection, however... May not be quite so cheap, and in some cases may be more than what you can afford. (In which case the character will either receive major injuries if they aren't overspending by that much, or simply die as per norm if it's more than a quick loan might be able to cover.

Fate Points will be regained at times where I see fit to have you regain them. It might be because you slew the Demi-Lich by tossing his phylactery into the fires of Mt. Doom, or it might be because you won a pie eating contest. Regardless, sometimes you might get a few RP hints about the current status of your fate points."

DID YOU NOT EVEN READ ABOUT 5E BEFORE YOU WROTE THESE? THIS LITERALLY ALREADY EXISTS IN THE SYSTEM. http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41852/what-is-inspiration (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41852/what-is-inspiration)

All you'd need to do is tweak it slightly.

The long and short of it is that those houserules read like the wishlist of a DM who wants to remove as much agency from his players as he can get away with, and then repeatedly subject them to overleveled encounters while preventing them from managing to pull off victories against those same impossible odds. I would never under any circumstances play with a DM who gave me this sort of forewarning about the sort of bullshit he planned on pulling.

It's also not the sort of thing that fosters enjoyable RP. Different people take pleasure from different aspects of the game, and the best is usually a mix of roleplay and rollplay, because the two inherently complement and support each other. The DM provides the world, the players provide the motive action for the protagonists, and the dice provide the outcomes of their actions. Your justifications sound like the same sort of arguments used by people supporting diceless RPGs, and I'll just say straight out that diceless tabletop and freeform RP almost never work out well. You're not quite so far in that direction, but you've meandered into another poisonous trap instead.

Even games which already have mechanics more in line with what you want (read: CoC and Paranoia, for example) where the DM is encouraged to be a bit of a dick, they still don't set things up to remove player agency or prevent them from risking all and potentially triumphing when they ordinarily wouldn't.

It sounds like you're trying to run a high-lethality low-magic campaign with a low fantasy feel, but... there are myriad ways to do it better than this. Good luck finding players, I suppose. :|

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 07:51:48 pm

If there are better ways than tell me. I'll be responding to your points in an edit after this, or posting it if a response comes up. I'm extremely open to  criticism and suggestions otherwise I wouldn't have posted it here.

Spoiler: This is Super Long (click to show/hide)

Quote from: NFO

Actually, most of my issue with the ruleset above is its focus on numbers.

Hmm, actually, I can see that issue.

Quote from: NFO

The part that seems 'not fun' with the above is the DF level of realism.  While waiting four weeks for a broken bone to mend is realistic, and something I would do, the focus on 'don't get hurt or you're fucked' just sounds unpleasant from my perspective.  I know that there are players that appreciate that roguelike level of hardcore, but I'm just not one of them.  I'm not trying to say there is anything wrong with what you want to accomplish, because there really isn't, just that it isn't something I personally would have fun playing.

I'm already considering lowering the long rest/short rest times. Tell me, given the choice, from a purely experience driven perspective rather than power gaming one,would you prefer 8 hour short rests and 3 day long rests, or long resting doesn't automatically restore health to full?

Oh, right, some of these rules are from the DMG, some are purely homebrew. Also, you seem to be making the instant assumption that I'm a terrible DM, at least going by your tone (but internet, blah de blah, I'm probably misinterpreting.)
Oh, and I'd like to mention that it's not actually low fantasy. It's quite high fantasy, actually.

Also, something you seem to have misunderstood FD is that I'm intending on hosting the game here, like Dwarmin's campaign. Play-by-post, which is why I'm willing to go with some odder rules. (Sessions won't be wasted healing since sessions don't exist, RP focus is easier, so forth.)

Quote from: Flying Dice

Seems like pointless complication. You've already got the random element built into the system, changing proficiency to a die roll rather than a flat number just means that players' supposed core abilities are less reliable and more inconsistent. Why is this necessary? What purpose does it serve?

It's there to make things a little less concrete. It's extra complexity, yes, but it's an extra range of failure->success. It makes the system somewhat less linear. I guess it's not "necessary," though.

Quote from: Flying Dice

Is this supposed to be CoC? Basically what you're saying is that you're going to throw encounters at players that they aren't going to be able to defeat, attach an arbitrary and unknown DC to it, and then nerf a lot of their means of escape if they fail. Moreover, you're eliminating player agency by using a condition which forces them to flee using whatever resources they have.

Worse, you add the same situation, but then in addition to removing agency in the short term, you also arbitrarily inflict semipermanent debuffs on players' characters because you decided to throw them at an encounter they had no chance of beating without even giving them the chance to flee. I haven't read the rest, but I suspect/hope this section is going to be the worst. This sort of thing is the type of houserule a control-freak killer DM would use to prevent his players from having fun or making their own decisions. It's not always bad to present players with hooks that lead to an encounter that they really shouldn't attempt, but they should have the option of confronting it despite the warning signs, and the chance, however slim, of pulling out a victory if there's even the slightest mechanical possibility of such.

I can probably pull off a similar effect via the way I present things so I'll scrap this rule, and anywhere where I think this would be absolutely necessary I'll do something similar anyway. (with different penalties, like to concentration or dexterity checks, perhaps?)

Quote from: Flying Dice

Not terrible in a void, but given that the rest of the rules sound like you're going to be flooding players with encounters they're not ready for, it doesn't exactly look good. At least you followed up with a semicoherent reason for it. Smells like "muh realisms" to me. Why is it a flat "You cannot heal" rather than reduced healing?

I just sort of took it from the DMG, but I guess quarter or half healing would make a bit more sense?

Quote from: Flying Dice

Read the PHB more thoroughly before you houserule. As has already been pointed out, this heavily nerfs several classes for no good reason. No, "But muh realisms" doesn't count as a good reason.

And as I've already said to Neon, I'm considering lowering the time required for resting.
If "but muh realisms" doesn't count as a good reason, does "muh fantasies" count as a good reason? Well, there's the caster nerfing which is a fair one. Still, I'm starting to realise that most of these things I can do in a less rigid manner by how I set stuff up, so oh well.

Quote from: Flying Dice

Dice pools are sometimes a good system to use. This case isn't one because of the way you're using it. It's going to average out at mediocre rolls every single time, and it's going to feel boring as hell. The second part is reasonable.

Tell me a good time to use it then. The point was to skew it towards the center and thus allow init modifiers to have more seeming effect, but oh well, back to linearity. 1d20 it is.

Quote from: Flying Dice

More of the same killer DM muh realisms crap from before. You're arbitrarily removing player agency and crippling characters because you want to.

More of the same power gaming muh fantasies crap from before. You've got points, but please stop it with the mocking. I find lasting injuries interesting, you don't, I see.
Also, it's not like it's impossible to recover from them, they're "lingering", not "eternal."

Quote from: Flying Dice

See above re: Removing agency and killer DMing.

Applies to enemies too, not just players.. If I wanted to remove agency, I'd write a book. Also, it doesn't remove agency, it's a combat effect. Removing agency is "But Thou Must!"
Killer DMing, I guess? I dunno, the only time I've ever ran a killer session was when I first gave it a shot. (DMing, that is.)
I like to think I usually get the balance right.

Quote from: Flying Dice

Workable enough, but if you really want a low-magic setting, ban casters and use few/none as enemies and NPCs instead of nerfing half the classes in the game.

It's not a low-magic setting, though. It's just that those specific spells (actually, long distance teleportation is fine, so remove that.) are banned due to conflict with the setting. The banned spells/effects are basically just these: Resurrection/contacting the dead. Planar travel (summons are still fine.)  and... That's it. Two effects. Not exactly "low magic" or "nerfing half the classes (in any meaningful way at least) eh?

Quote from: Flying Dice

This is a massive red flag for any player. Even if you are honestly just trying to focus on roleplay, the way this will come off to any player ever is that you're a killer DM who doesn't want his players to notice him fudging rolls. If a DM ever said this to me when I joined their group, I would walk out laughing at them. Among other things, it also removes vital information from the players; if they fail a check, not knowing what they rolled for it means that they don't know if it's worth their time to keep trying.

Firstly, I'm intending on running it Play-by-post here on B12 with me rolling everything. As is likely obvious, that means that if I wanted to fudge rolls I could anyway. You seem to keep assuming all I want to do is kill everyone and cheat.
Do you at least think hiding a player's Stealth, Arcana, Insight, and other similar checks is reasonable, at least? Or are you someone who likes to try and stealth, fail their stealth roll, then just say "Nah, I'll not go." or succeed super well on your insight check and go "Yep, definitely reliable!"?

Quote from: Flying Dice

Again, muh realisms and killer DMing.

Again, what's wrong with muh realisms? This is probably the only case where I'll agree with you that I'm probably being a bit too killer, though, so I guess I'll change it back to three. I just don't like the idea of a greatsword wielding half-orc repeatedly swinging his greatsword into an unconscious person's face and having them survive because someone keeps stabilizing them.

Quote from: Flying Dice

DID YOU NOT EVEN READ ABOUT 5E BEFORE YOU WROTE THESE? THIS LITERALLY ALREADY EXISTS IN THE SYSTEM. http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41852/what-is-inspiration

All you'd need to do is tweak it slightly.

I actually totally forgot about inspiration. Also, yes, I've read the PHB thank you very much. And the DMG. And the MM. And the online supplements.

Quote from: Flying Dice

gave me this sort of forewarning about the sort of bullshit he planned on pulling.

Please stop assuming I'm doing this with malicious intentions, okay? I'm doing the same about your post despite its (seeming) ridiculously insulting and derogatory tone, since I don't think you're doing it intentionally. 

---

I'd also like to mention that there are other things I was considering employing. For instance, a slightly easier version of Dwarmin's monster research system from New World to make up for players lacking information from fighting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 17, 2015, 10:33:03 pm

Sorry, I was trying to make the point that that's what all of those rules taken together give the appearance of, regardless of your intentions. It was already clear from the context ITT that you weren't aiming for something like that, but if you just put up those houserules in your OP I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would make those assumptions. That's one of the key things to remember: you're trying to make the premise appealing to potential players. Obviously some won't like this point or that of what you've done, but if a casual readthrough just gives the impression that players are going to be crippled and punished in a bunch of different ways...

Also, let me clarify what I meant when I was talking about player agency: A lot of what you've done is geared towards punishing players both during and after confrontations which are above the CR they should be fighting against, even ones which they didn't chose to engage. This in particular is, IMO, bad regardless of the context. You're telling players, "Oh, you'd better not fight unless it's a sure thing, otherwise you'll get nasty debuffs, lingering injuries, and have to take days to heal up before you can do anything interesting." It may not be what you intend, but that's how it'll be parsed. If a player or party end up in a really bad situation, it shouldn't be because of something out of their control, or a single relatively minor error in judgement, it should be because of them repeatedly making bad decisions and/or rolling very poorly.

Re: "Muh realisms." I'm not talking about mundane vs. fantasy, I'm talking about the application of complications that contribute nothing towards player enjoyment. If there's one thing I can guarantee, it's that most players won't enjoy spending most of their game time nursing injuries and avoiding fights (unless you somehow manage to find an entire party worth of people who want to be brutalized).

Suggestions:

1. You don't need a houseruled effect to make it clear when the party's shoulder deep in shit. All you have to do is make sure that the encounters you've been dropping warning hints about are actually difficult enough that the party will expend most of their resources and possibly lose someone if they fight and don't roll well. Neonivek has commented on a relevant factor before: mook-tier enemies stay threatening pretty much forever. If you've got an encounter that you want to be challenging and dangerous, consider dropping in a number of smaller threats instead of beefing the main one up, to avoid the traditional motif of "smack BBEG until he pops".

2. Regarding hiding skill checks: What was that you were saying about assumptions?

But no. I've never seen a DM hide players' rolls like that. If someone rolls Investigation to search for clues in a room, they'll see what they rolled, and even if they didn't they'll be able to get the general gist of their roll from the DM's description (unless the DM is one of the lazy types that just says "You find nothing," if you don't pass the DC).

Actually, I'm wondering what sort of games you've played in where someone decides on a course of action, aborts when they roll low, and is allowed to get away with it? You'd be laughed away from the table with any group I've played with. That's like saying, "I'm going to shoot at the third orc from the left," missing, and then saying, "Wait, wait, mulligan, I'm shooting the second one from the left I mean." Even more so with PbP because you'll be rolling actions for players, which means that by the time they see the roll the action has already happened. All this will do is annoy players and slow down play because they won't know how they rolled when they failed, which tends to lead to most of the party attempting the same check.

You might make an exception for Perception, but that would be sort of dickish, given that a player who's bothering to roll Perception is already being proactive and is suspicious of something because they're not relying on Passive Perception.

3. Basically, if I had to summarize a lot of these proposed changes, it'd be as artificial difficulty. You're not changing the meat and bones of the game in meaningful ways for the most part, you're just introducing annoyances and time-wasting drek to drop on players when they don't do what you want. If I'm a DM and I've been warning my players about (say) the shady merchant lord in the hub city and they've investigated enough to pick up clues that warn them away from directly confronting him in combat... I'll not hold back if they decide to do it anyways, but I won't tilt things any more than the inherent difficulty of him being a vampire lord with a substantial court already does; if they take that risk, they get to roll it out. Maybe they'll die horribly. Maybe they'll barely escape with their lives. Maybe they'll kill him by the skin of their teeth. That's up to their choices and how the dice fall; it's my place to tell the story in an interesting manner and roll for their enemies, not to tell them that they suddenly get an extra disadvantage because they didn't do what I wanted, or that they won't be able to adventure for a week or two worth of healing, because they didn't do what I wanted.

There are ways to make the combat and aftermath more concrete. You can rule that players can't try to stabilize others if they or the downed person is threatened. You can make healing items few and far between. You can rule that checks to treat injuries and stabilize others are made at disadvantage if you don't have a proficiency in Medicine or a theoretical Healer's Kit. You can make natural healing vary based on the quality of rest (say, something like 10% on bare ground/15% blanket/25% bedroll/50% bedroll + tent/100% real bed and shelter). Death Saves are already plenty dangerous; being damaged at all adds one failure, and a nat 1 or taking damage from a crit adds 2 failures. If you go down, it's easy to die.

If you want to simulate wounds in a relatively simple way, try this: If you go down but survive, each failure on your death saves persists for [arbitrary period of time]. Maybe a day for one failure, a week for two. If you go down again before that time's up, you're still at 1 or 2 failures and die more easily. That creates a risk which the players can manage both individually (taking fewer chances) and collectively (doing easier tasks, taking downtime, protecting wounded party members). It creates that element of danger without making players feel useless because their raw numbers are lower.

Stuff like that. Make changes, if you must make changes, which create situations where the players still have meaningful choices and room for risk/reward assessment. If you want a bit of extra brutality, I've got a PDF of the Critonomicon kicking around if you want to copy a few of its tables.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 17, 2015, 10:46:53 pm

UXLZ, I'm really not suggesting that you are a bad DM (though on review it looks like that was aimed at FD), or anything of the sort.  I know that my tone can be confrontational and I do apologize if something I said is making you defensive.

I think that from your assertions that you have a solid grasp on what you want to do with your game, but that maybe you don't have a good idea how.  Again, not trying to be offensive here.

My above commentary about my methodology was due to your assertion that I am a 'dice' DM, when that is definitely not the case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 11:01:23 pm

PPE: NFO, that was aimed at FD, you're fine. >_>
I guess I may have phrased the question about whether you preferred the crunch to the fluff was a bit mean, sorry about that.
I guess you don't work with 5E so you wouldn't know, but do you have any suggestions or advice on "how" to run it? Since I'd say that assessment is fairly correct.

---

Okay, now this post is something I can work with. I'll do my best to take the advice into account. I'd definitely like to see that Critonomicon. xD

I'm intending on using a lot of re-fluffed or adapted from other works creatures to prevent Metagaming (the unavoidable type, not the intentional type. I know I personally find it boring as a player encountering something I already know all about, even if I can RP my character as ignorant.)

Quote from: Flying Dice

But no. I've never seen a DM hide players' rolls like that. If someone rolls Investigation to search for clues in a room, they'll see what they rolled, and even if they didn't they'll be able to get the general gist of their roll from the DM's description (unless the DM is one of the lazy types that just says "You find nothing," if you don't pass the DC).

I should have clarified in the rule more clearly, that's what I'm intending to do. The players will hopefully get an idea of how well they've done from the way I describe stuff. The reason I want to hide the rolls is that if a player does absolutely terrible (like a 3 on the aforementioned investigation check) I'd probably have them pick up on a false lead. If they know they rolled a three, obviously they'd just be like "Ha ha, as if." Can you see why I want to be able to do that? I mean, maybe not to you, but I'd love that as a player. I guess we could make a list of what rolls are reasonable to hide and those that aren't? Some rolls have immediately observable effects like Athletics or Sleight of Hand, but the thing is... I see all these situations where it would be good to hide the roll. What if the thief tries to pickpocket from someone and fails abysmally, but the person notices and intentionally lets them steal it to blackmail them with or something later on? If the thief knows they bungled it, they'd know something was up.

In regards to the stealth, no, it doesn't quite work like that, but what about insight? If you roll a three for insight, are you going to trust what the DM tells you? If you roll a twenty, it's obvious that whatever comes up is the truth. On a three, you don't know, or you might misinterpret. You could once again say it's "dickishness", but that's the kind of thing I'd love as a player since it makes things more (in my view) dynamic, less sure.

I'll use the death saving throw variant, that one makes enough sense. Some of the lingering wounds are fairly interesting, though, and I'm a bit sad to not use them. I believe one of them was a hideous scar that gave disadvantage on Persuasion effects but advantage of Intimidation.

I like the sliding scale of healing, but you still end up with the same "I just beaten to within a hair's breadth of my life by a dragon, but I slept in a nice bed and now I'm better than ever!"
Do you think combining the injury and natural healing based on rest together might work? Something like having two failed death saving throws lowers the QoR factor by one? (So sleeping on bare ground doesn't heal at all, blanket heals 10%, etc.)
Or is that, *ahem*, taking away agency? xD

Oh, and is removing planar shifting/resurrection really that much of an issue? There are genuine conflicts with the setting (which I won't go into, since spoilerz.)

Man, if the variant rules got slammed this much, I wonder what you guys will think of the character creation options.

Spoiler: Summary (click to show/hide)

Character class doesn’t matter when it comes to background fluff. Essentially, if you want to take the monk class, you don’t have to be an actual monk. Some justification will be needed, but we can work with that on a case by case basis. Since the player count is small, everyone can have some awesome backstories. The world is flexible, but PM me first. Nothing overblown, though. You’ll regret that.

The only available race from a fluff perspective is Human. In this world, the other races never existed in the first place. However, I’m letting you take other race’s stat blocks as well as their racial abilities with fluff changes where necessary.
The exception is darkvision. No one gets darkvision naturally, since I actually want (natural) darkness to be a genuine concern.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 17, 2015, 11:17:26 pm

I think the biggest element to making the game more gritty/real has more to do with consequences than difficulty.  For instance the actual fight might be over in a moment, but the effects can be very disproportionate.  Without having any kind of details about the actual events and actors in the campaign I can't get very specific tho'.

From the looks of it you want a campaign where the players have to decide whether or not a fight is worthwhile (i.e. the resources they would have to expend not only to finish the fight, but to deal with the aftermath) in order to keep them immersed, and that on its own is really solid.  I'm just not sure that mechanical is the best way to handle that, I'd probably use politics, grudges, and other things that might not kill them outright but instead make their lives more difficult.

Then again I may be barking up the wrong tree here, lack of data and all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 11:24:23 pm

Edited my previous post with some additional stuff (character creation options.)

That's probably a fairly good gist. If I were to describe the setting it would probably be the midpoint between Regular DnD, Dark Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery, with some aspects from each of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 18, 2015, 01:51:42 am

I won't comment on mechanics and such because I'm not very good at seeing on forehand how such things and changes will work out in practice, so I know to keep my nose out of those discussions. But to me it sounds like a lot of these changes come from you not worrying about your players not playing their characters fairly, UXLZ, and half-expecting them to try and cheat the game if they can.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 18, 2015, 11:41:46 am

Yeah, NFO hit the nail I was dancing around. This is the sort of thing you mostly don't need rules for if the world supports it.

Re: Rolls: I suppose? If you have players who don't have the ability to not metagame. In that light it sounds a lot more like a big chunk of that is anti-metagaming. I'd like to say that that shouldn't be a concern with people who want an RP heavy campaign, but yeah.  :P

That character creation isn't really a factor. I mean, assuming you've got an in-setting reason for it. The only think that's kind of wonky is allowing people to minmax with their race even when those races don't exist, but it's not like there isn't a history of human variants. Would someone who is essentially a "human" gnome or halfling be Small sized? An "elf" have the non-darkvision racial abilities (yes)? 'Cause that's basically either not going to make sense or require in-story justification which makes all of the axed races humans in name only, sorta. Why are "elves" able to trance, why do they have that immunity, &c? The rest of it I actually like, because it opens up potential.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 18, 2015, 11:47:11 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 17, 2015, 11:17:26 pm

I think the biggest element to making the game more gritty/real has more to do with consequences than difficulty.  For instance the actual fight might be over in a moment, but the effects can be very disproportionate.

To implement something like that, what if you made critical hits deal constitution damage equal to the weapon's critical multiplier.

EDIT:
This could also help alleviate the traditional problem of wizards being more powerful than fighters, (especially if the constitution damage is in addition to rather than instead of the normal extra damage) as critical hits for spells are extremely limited.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 18, 2015, 12:42:29 pm

That's not a half-bad idea. IIRC it's difficult enough to optimize for crits in 5e that you couldn't even exploit it much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 18, 2015, 12:45:52 pm

Instead of hurting HP recovery you could have players accumulate wounds that don't go away after rests.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on August 18, 2015, 04:36:06 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on August 17, 2015, 11:01:23 pm

Spoiler: Summary (click to show/hide)

Character class doesn’t matter when it comes to background fluff. Essentially, if you want to take the monk class, you don’t have to be an actual monk. Some justification will be needed, but we can work with that on a case by case basis. Since the player count is small, everyone can have some awesome backstories. The world is flexible, but PM me first. Nothing overblown, though. You’ll regret that.

The only available race from a fluff perspective is Human. In this world, the other races never existed in the first place. However, I’m letting you take other race’s stat blocks as well as their racial abilities with fluff changes where necessary.
The exception is darkvision. No one gets darkvision naturally, since I actually want (natural) darkness to be a genuine concern.

If you're going to remove Darkvision from some racial choices (even if they actually represent humans) remember to add something back in to make up for it.

Quote from: Bohandas on August 18, 2015, 11:47:11 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 17, 2015, 11:17:26 pm

I think the biggest element to making the game more gritty/real has more to do with consequences than difficulty.  For instance the actual fight might be over in a moment, but the effects can be very disproportionate.

To implement something like that, what if you made critical hits deal constitution damage equal to the weapon's critical multiplier.

EDIT:
This could also help alleviate the traditional problem of wizards being more powerful than fighters, (especially if the constitution damage is in addition to rather than instead of the normal extra damage) as critical hits for spells are extremely limited.

Critical multiplier is only a thing in 3e/Pathfinder, and I don't think 5e really does ability damage, though lowering max HP and possibly giving permanent Disadvantage on Constitution saving throws works just as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 06:26:52 pm

Any suggestions on what might actually replace it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 18, 2015, 07:08:46 pm

Yeah, it would just effectively mean that any crit does 2 Con damage. I'd forgotten about that, since I've mostly played Wizards and a Monk in 5e.

Re: Replacing Darkvision: I'unno. It had a pretty firm niche as removing something which ranged from annoying to actually dangerous as part of the benefit to taking a more rigid racial bonus set. One option might be to replace it with, say, 10' Blindsight, which would deal with what seemed to be your primary issue of people not needing torches/magical light to be fine navigating underground, while still retaining the same sort of niche of "able to function better than average in darkness". It's probably not balanced, though, given the additional advantages of Blindsight, even with a short range.

Maybe replace it with Low-Light Vision (which gives an advantage in dim lighting while still requiring a light source to function) and another small bonus. Problem with 5e is that you can't just tack on something like a racial +2 to Perception (and, for example, Elves already get a racial proficiency to Perception, so you couldn't just use that). You might be able to do something related like +2 to Initiative and Passive Perception while operating in less than broad daylight but more than total darkness, which would fit with the same motif of higher than average sensory ability  in dark conditions while still circumventing the "60' darkvision, I don't need a torch" thing.

So yeah. That would be my hesitant suggestion. For all races with Darkvision, substitute Low-Light vision and racial +2 to Initiative and Passive Perception while in lighting dimmer than direct daylight and brighter than pitch darkness. Tweak as desired.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 18, 2015, 07:19:45 pm

I still find human, but all the abilities of a different race to be odd. If I'm a not!minotaur, would I still get a gore attack?
Either have different races or just have everyone as a human. Can't have your cake and eat it too very well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 07:27:06 pm

I'm pretty sure there are less races that don't have darkvision than there are races that do, and given that I'm hoping for darkness to be a fairly regular occurrence in this campaign that's a genuine issue rather than the minor nuisance it tends to be (after all, it's sword and sorcery/dark fantasy, with somewhat less magic than a regular DnD setting but plenty of monsters.) Having darkvision in it just doesn't realy fit.

Low-light vision was the one that just made it so you didn't have sight-reliant perception disadvantage in dim light, correct? If that's the one, it sounds fine. +2 to passive perception is also fine, but I'm not so sure about initiative. I guess it isn't really *that* major so +2 to that as well shouldn't be major.

@Gig: I haven't decided on what supplements I want to allow/disallow, yet, so not!Minotaur might not even be an option, like not!Aaracockra or Aasamir or Goliath or any of those others.

Fluff changes will be made where necessary, it's not really that hard. not!Dragonborn, for instance, if they are a magic-casting class could easily have their breath attack reflavored as a special spell the character favors, and so forth. The only real issue is with stuff that's a physical feature of the race that can exclusively be used for the function (like the Tiefling's tail, I believe? Or was that just window dressing? I can't remember if they could actually use it for stuff.)
A minotaur's gore attack can be refluffed as a special fighting maneuver.

I've got that cake, and I'm eating the whole thing godamnit! :v

*edit*

Yeah, the tail's just window dressing. Tieflings are easy to re-flavor since they're pretty much humans already. (In a broader sense.)
Oh, and I also forgot to mention that everyone gets the regular human lifespan, but that's basically a non-issue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on August 18, 2015, 08:17:25 pm

Quote from: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 07:27:06 pm

Oh, and I also forgot to mention that everyone gets the regular human lifespan, but that's basically a non-issue.

Really, if death by old age becomes an issue, either you've been playing too long or allowed someone to play to old a character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 18, 2015, 09:06:10 pm

Ironically enough, Low-Light Vision in 5e was folded into Darkvision, though it is true that in 5e sight-related Perception checks are made at disadvantage in Lightly Obscured areas (which also includes medium-density foliage and thick fog). IIRC the only other effect of Lightly Obscured areas is that certain races are able to attempt to Hide in them as if they were fully obscured. I was more thinking of the effects of Low-Light Vision from when it existed, namely:

Quote

Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

Specifically, it doubles the radius of bright and dim light circles from all light sources and (unlike Darkvision) allows you to see colors. At least, that's how I've always seen it parsed. So for example if you had a rock that you had cast Light on, it would effectively cast 40' of bright light and an additional 40' of dim light instead of 20' of bright and another 20' of dim (for you -- anyone without LLV would still see 20'/20'). I'm pretty sure this is why Low-Light Vision was axed as an independent thing: when Darkvision was readily accessible there was pretty much no benefit to having it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 09:16:55 pm

Hm, I don't really like the sound of that if I'm honest. What about about tripling the Dim Light distance? So it's 20'/60' rather than 40'/40'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 18, 2015, 09:49:32 pm

*shrugs* It's your game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 09:54:56 pm

I might just make it so they don't get disadvantage on dim-llight perception checks along with +2 passive perception to see in dim light and maybe some sort of init bonus.. Even just the lack of disadvantage could actually end up fairly important, too.

I'm leery of the initiative bonus because I'll need to add a bunch of conditions to it or you'd end up with some irritating situations on both side, and arguably it could end up better than regular darkvision. (Though it's not really power that I'm worried about, I just don't want to over complicate it or let people pretend darkness doesn't exist.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 18, 2015, 10:11:16 pm

Yeah as much as I give 5e a good time, don't get me wrong there is a lot that rubs me the wrong way.

5e is something I want to fully explore because not only is it balanced, you don't have to throw away the monster manual because players are a higher level, but most importantly the game flows leagues greater then 3.5 ever did.

And heck some of the simplifications in 5e are ones I am fully behind... We didn't need a bajillion skills for everything. We don't need monsters to fall under 8 separate knowledges (though I wish there was just "monster knowledge" as opposed to Arcane being the umbrella). Severely limiting the instant kills? I am all for it, I felt like after a while that "cheapness" was the only trick 3.5 knew.

But what took so long for me to get into 5e was just how much it felt like someone took a hammer to the game's complexity and variety. Spells are simplified to hell and back and even to an extent there being so many "It does damage yo" spells hurts the overall feel of magic (even if all 3.5 did was remake the same spell over and over again with different elements... so I might be being unfair to 3.5)

HECK!... The one thing I loathe about 5e is how much I feel like you don't REALLY make your own character. They made getting a feat an "alternative option" as opposed to something ingrained in the system, which is a shame because the feats are actually good and worthwhile without a lot of feat surfing (in fact just about ALL the feats are good). It is to me the biggest weakness of 5e...

It was like to achieve balance they had to make sure the player had as little involvement in creating their character as humanly possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 10:15:37 pm

Making feats optional is probably why they're so good, since they're aren't a bajillion of them with only 3 useful ones and 6 tax ones.

Players break things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 18, 2015, 10:34:35 pm

Honestly that's my pretty close to my own feelings about 5e. They did a pretty good job of balancing things without falling into the 4e "Make every class the same thing with different fluff," trap, but it came at the expense of investment via the crunch. When I build a character in 3.5 or PF I have a firm idea of how they fight, how they interact with other people, and maybe even what they do to relax (if the build has space for skill points in things like Profession (Chef) or Perform ([insert instrument here]), or for little bits and bobs that cost a pittance for a higher level character) before I ever start writing their personality and backstory.

When I make a character in 5e, it feels like I'm following a color-by-numbers book. It dumps the entirety of the character beyond the most basic aspects suggested by ability scores into the realm of backstory, which I'm sort of leery of -- it reeks too much of freeform RP for my taste, which at least in my experience tends to be the domain of shitty self-inserts and Sues (not that people don't manage to do that in 3.x/PF, mind you. >.>). That, and pretty much every character looks more or less the same at any given point, distinguished solely by their backstory. That's not to say that backstory doesn't matter, just that it functions better when supported by the rest of the sheet.

I'm of mixed opinion regarding the "four personality boxes" -- on the one hand, they're a good crutch for people who don't care to spend much time developing their character, but on the other they're more of the same shallow paint-by-numbers character creation.

There's also something I've encountered in the magic system. Between the miscellaneous nerfs and those done by way of the new Concentration mechanic, and a vastly smaller set of spells, there are actually relatively few spells worth taking. In 3.5/PF my usual problem with casters is narrowing my options, not digging up enough spells that aren't mehworthy or complete crap. Concentration means that you take at most maybe two or three Concentration-limited spells of each level even if you're a Wizard -- you'll never be able to use more than one total at a time, and you don't get many prepared spells to begin with. But the thing is, beyond that all you really have are a scant handful of non-shit direct damage and Save-or-X spells, and a scattering of glorious rituals.

Ritual casting is pretty much the only purely good innovation in 5e casting IMO, given that it's basically done for the boring utility spells like Detect Magic what unlimited cantrips/orisons did for those.

Arcane casters also smell the most like 4e to me: Wizards and Sorcerers in particular are almost alarmingly similar now because of how spellcasting has changed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 10:37:26 pm

Wizards got changed to basically how sorcerers used to work, didn't they?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 18, 2015, 10:44:50 pm

Quote

There's also something I've encountered in the magic system. Between the miscellaneous nerfs and those done by way of the new Concentration mechanic, and a vastly smaller set of spells, there are actually relatively few spells worth taking. In 3.5/PF my usual problem with casters is narrowing my options, not digging up enough spells that aren't mehworthy or complete crap.

Quite a few of them are better then you would think due to how the system differs (Charm is a big one)

But the "I have to select the useful spells" comes from the fact that Wizards and Sorcerers aren't super duper broken.

Which is kind of the thing. You no longer are surfing through a sea of "Now how do I want to utterly trump this encounter" spells... or Spells that do more damage then the entire rest of your party combined... or spells that kill the entire enemy party instantly... or spells that make you immune to the encounter (hey Rope Trick).

I'll put it this way... 3.5 was built off of trying to negate the Wizard at all times. All bosses had to have magic resistance and any enemy worth his salt had magic immunity.

Quote from: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 10:37:26 pm

Wizards got changed to basically how sorcerers used to work, didn't they?

Wizards are still wizards but they are Wizards who can cast like Sorcerers.

If spells were as broken as they were in 3.5... Then goodness they would break the game over their knee.

---

I will say that Wizards in many ways feel "not as powerful" but I have no idea how they could have fixed that without just jumping back into 3.5s "Ha ha ha! my level 1 spell destroys you CR 100 encounter!"

Then again higher level Wizards are extremely powerful... So the fact that Wizards start off not feeling all that amazing and end up raining death down to the battlefield... Might actually work better.

But I never got to see a high level wizard.

In otherwords I feel like FlyingDice is right, but I think 3.5 did Wizards worse (they are fun! don't get me wrong. It just isn't fun to be the fighter standing beside a Wizard or the GM knowing that an encounter revolves entirely around a wizard). So the solution would have to be between 3.5 and 5e... Wizards feeling potent and powerful without being weak.

Honestly having Wizards have spells that take multiple rounds would be an elegant solution. As well Wizards could have had two levels of concentration... "Concentrate" and "Sustain" that way some spells could have been "sustained" without fear of them suddenly not working, while still not letting you stack a metric ton of spells.

For example... Spiderclimb? Sustained, making it concentrate weakens it vastly. Expeditious retreat? Concentration, it fits the moves theme since it is meant for you to retreat in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on August 18, 2015, 11:45:32 pm

So I do a weekly game each Thursday Night at the Gamestore I frequent. There the players go through a Dungeon in the style of RPGs of old, which are Randomly Generated and themed whenever they enter the floor or such depending on how I set it up the night or so before. Such as getting the Paperminis for the monsters and have a general idea of how the floor will be laid out. So, technically not fully Randomly Genned but for their eyes it is. Heck I even explained that despite the fact they are technically going deeper into the dungeon, sometimes the dungeon itself will have the floor being all different things such as a Forest adventure with Blue Skies and everything or maybe a Naval styled dungeon or something, like I said, whatever I feel like generating or whatever the Dice come up with from the Pathfinder DMG...

Anyway, during the off time I felt that it would be fun to make a whole extra game that happens whenever we are not playing, something to unlock and grow during the weeks of playtime. A Guildhall in fact. While they haven't fully unlocked the first part, which will hopefully happen soon but they tend to drag out things and after a lucky chance of them splitting the party and completing a puzzle that was originally designed to force them to split they split as soon as they come to a crossroad and this drags out gameplay as most DMs will know...

The design of this is that I make my dungeon tiles out of cardboard following this - TheDMGInfo Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw-XImXo4zfOKxI_NWJpESKHiX71yyLXU). I took this sort of idea and ran with it, deciding to get hold of a large sheet of thin cardboard that I measured out to be 16x16 tiles big (with some small cutoff) and collected some thicker thin cardboard from Catfood trays to act as the rooms. Which also happened to be a perfect 2x3 (TINY cutoff of 2mm). These two are the Guildhall's building area for as they unlock things and build up their guildhall, even allowing them to go multistory if needed...

Each player JUMPED onto this idea, instantly loving the idea of these unlockable rooms with ideas and plans for making cash and such out of game, which I agreed with. SO I began working on some things. The first thing I made was this Job License (http://puu.sh/jGzAX/c378cf2014.png), of which they could attach to their Character sheet to expand into, and then began working out how to make their professions actually work. One wanted to be a farmer, and cause this technically didn't require any special rooms but land I said that this will be the example of how things can be done and got to work planning it out while they did their Dungeon Runs to get gold and possibly the Unlock of the Entrance of the Guildhall (First Keystone part to start their building) as they are currently just a couple of Tents around their Hearthfire (Guildhall Heart if you were)...

An added bit of fun for when they finish a Run and enter their planning mode of how to do their Guildhall stuff as only when the PCs are out of the Dungeon can they use the Guildhall during the weekgap between games I felt that some days we could have separate from Runs to just do some City Fun. And that isn't always fun for all types of players so I made the Dungeon 'Bleed' and have Mobs attack their Hearthfire as in a Dungeon Defense gametype, which they loved, the idea is that the Monsters and Encounters they meet in the dungeon come back for a second attempt to screw them over. Bwhahaha...

But I just recently finished working on the Farmer's Profession cards for his starting level. And here it is... Profession Cards (http://puu.sh/jGzRD/fb47da4bd3.png)

For those DMs interested in this idea, the lore of this game is thus.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A Group of hardy Adventurers long ago discovered a unique dungeon hidden away in the land. They traveled deep into its caves discovering that on each floor a different theme appeared, while the first was a Cave with Kobolds, as they proceed down they found themselves in a thick forest on the next and then an Island on the following and so forth. Each Floor seemed to be vastly different and more difficult then the ones before dispite the fact they knew that they were going deeper and deeper each floor...

On the Tenth floor they discovered themselves in what appeared to be more like that of a Throne Room, and at the far end, spread out over a large Chaise longue before a swath of gold, gems and many other valuables, was a Gigantic Man who slowly feed himself grapes, wine and other assortments of the feast spread before him. This man introduced himself as Arrengee. The God of this Dungeon. He congratulated the Adventurers in compleating his trials and offered them to partake in his Feast as he summoned them chairs as well. During the meal Arrengee informed them as a reward for their success they could help themselves to his Treasure or to gain a Single Wish from him...

Naturally the Adventurers took the offer of the Wish and excused themselves as they discussed the possibilities away from the God. As they knew, a Wish is only as good as its most straight forward meaning, a simple mistake could change everything if said incorrectly. An argument began to rise as thoughts were shared and as it grew one member separated himself from the conversation and returned to the Feast. His name was Ottarr, and he was a Barbarian. A man to whom this Dungeon had been the greatest adventure to date. As he resumed feasting as his friends argued just out of ear shot, he started talking to Arrengee...

"This was the greatest Adventure I have ever been on to date," he informed Arrengee, "This Dungeon of yours was super fun and exciting. I only wish that it had lasted longer..."

Without realizing it, Ottarr had made the Wish that his fellow party members were still discussing about, and without warning except from a chuckle and a handwave from the God, the Party were teleported outside of the Dungeon in a blink of an eye. Confused about what had happened and disappointed with Ottarr for his mistake, the Adventurers decided to delve back into the Dungeon, perhaps if they compleate it again, they might get another chance at a Wish. But as they descended, deeper and deeper, they did not find Arrengee on the Tenth floor. Or the Twentieth or Fiftieth or even the Hundredth. No matter how deep they went, the Dungeon was infact, Longer. Forever Longer. It never ended. As per the Wish...

Tired and growing older and weaker. The Adventurers eventually quit exploring the Dungeon, they had found themselves wealthy beyond all measure though, so they bought the land from the kingdom and set themselves as Regents of a Small Village built around the Dungeon. Word of course spread out across the land and many Adventurers and Thrill Seekers came from far and wide to explore the Dungeon. The small village grew into a town, then into a small city and eventually into the greatest city in the land. A Haven for all types of Adventures...

Now it is your Party's turn to delve into the Dungeon of Arrengee...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 19, 2015, 12:37:56 am

You sure are Harvest Mooning there Neyvn

I am not QUITE sure what a watering can is made of really matters... I mean if each level determines what kind of irrigation system you are using.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on August 19, 2015, 12:42:22 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 19, 2015, 12:37:56 am

You sure are Harvest Mooning there Neyvn

I am not QUITE sure what a watering can is made of really matters... I mean if each level determines what kind of irrigation system you are using.

Harvest Mooning ??????? Nooooooooooo............. Yeah ok I was... 'Fantasy Life' is next for the other professions they want to do :P Basically. I was trying to figure out what the Secondary Tool for Farmer would be and just stuck with Watering Can. Mainly to represent caring for the crops as they grow while the Primary Tool is there for the Planting and Harvesting parts. I couldn't really think of any other system other then using one that was already designed and worked well...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 19, 2015, 12:58:00 am

Ahh I see the old "I know it doesn't make that much sense, but it is better then making a new system for everything"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 19, 2015, 03:17:21 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 18, 2015, 10:44:50 pm

Quote

There's also something I've encountered in the magic system. Between the miscellaneous nerfs and those done by way of the new Concentration mechanic, and a vastly smaller set of spells, there are actually relatively few spells worth taking. In 3.5/PF my usual problem with casters is narrowing my options, not digging up enough spells that aren't mehworthy or complete crap.

Quite a few of them are better then you would think due to how the system differs (Charm is a big one)

But the "I have to select the useful spells" comes from the fact that Wizards and Sorcerers aren't super duper broken.

Which is kind of the thing. You no longer are surfing through a sea of "Now how do I want to utterly trump this encounter" spells... or Spells that do more damage then the entire rest of your party combined... or spells that kill the entire enemy party instantly... or spells that make you immune to the encounter (hey Rope Trick).

I'll put it this way... 3.5 was built off of trying to negate the Wizard at all times. All bosses had to have magic resistance and any enemy worth his salt had magic immunity.

Quote from: UXLZ on August 18, 2015, 10:37:26 pm

Wizards got changed to basically how sorcerers used to work, didn't they?

Wizards are still wizards but they are Wizards who can cast like Sorcerers.

If spells were as broken as they were in 3.5... Then goodness they would break the game over their knee.

---

I will say that Wizards in many ways feel "not as powerful" but I have no idea how they could have fixed that without just jumping back into 3.5s "Ha ha ha! my level 1 spell destroys you CR 100 encounter!"

Then again higher level Wizards are extremely powerful... So the fact that Wizards start off not feeling all that amazing and end up raining death down to the battlefield... Might actually work better.

But I never got to see a high level wizard.

In otherwords I feel like FlyingDice is right, but I think 3.5 did Wizards worse (they are fun! don't get me wrong. It just isn't fun to be the fighter standing beside a Wizard or the GM knowing that an encounter revolves entirely around a wizard). So the solution would have to be between 3.5 and 5e... Wizards feeling potent and powerful without being weak.

Honestly having Wizards have spells that take multiple rounds would be an elegant solution. As well Wizards could have had two levels of concentration... "Concentrate" and "Sustain" that way some spells could have been "sustained" without fear of them suddenly not working, while still not letting you stack a metric ton of spells.

For example... Spiderclimb? Sustained, making it concentrate weakens it vastly. Expeditious retreat? Concentration, it fits the moves theme since it is meant for you to retreat in.

Ee-eeh. *wobbles hand*

I meant more that in 3.5 and PF just about every level as an arcane caster presented you with more good choices than you could actually take. If you played a 3.5 Sorcerer with access to the Spell Compendium &c., you were genuinely pressed to decide what you wanted to blast with. A 3.5 Wizard had a deep, multipath build tree. You could sacrifice varying degrees of versatility in exchange for more spells. You had to bloody well think about the spells you prepared if your DM didn't softball everything, you might even have had to do research and conduct some divination before a delve or adventure.

In PF you had the same general sort of situation in regards to spells. Do you want to try to abuse Mount or take something less reliant on DM's tolerance for cheese? Which of the Summon Monsters do you take? When you get 2nd level spells, do you nab Levitate, False Life, or Mirror Image for defense? Burning Arc or Scorching Ray for blasting? Do you spring for the Flaming Sphere + Pyrotechnics combo? When you get 3rd level spells, do you want Stinking Cloud, Slow, Sleet Storm, or Ray of Exhaustion for CC? Stuff like that.

In 5e, there's only one flavor of Wizard: Vanilla, and it tastes like Sorcerer. You don't have to think about how you build your character (because you'll build it the same every time). You don't have to think about what spells you take (because most of them suck and the ones that don't stand out sharply). You don't have to think about which spells to prepare (because you'll barely have enough worth preparing and you're a sucker if you prepare more than one or two Concentration spells per spell level/something you can cast via Ritual).

Basically 5e removed most of the higher-level thought associated with playing a good Wizard (lowercase-good, natch), turned them into half-assed Sorcerers who've forgotten that they don't have more spells than Magic Batman, and then turned around and given Sorcerers sole access to metamagic, a good round of buffing, and core class features that aren't fucking boring.

tl;dr: You want to play an arcane caster in 5e? Play a Sorcerer. 1: They're fucking cool and arguably stronger than they were in PF (never mind 3.0 or 3.5, geez Louise). 2: They can have somewhat unique identities depending on whether you want to be as close to a half-dragon as you're likely to get, a pants-on head wild-eyed walking random effect table, or the D&D version of the second-coolest X-Man. 3: They get metamagic. Suck it, Wizards. 4: Limited number of good spells? Guess who can take most of the good ones and laugh at the chumps who gave up flight and metamagic for access to a few more C-raters.

Or a Warlock, I guess. Just prepare to have half the party dip it and overshadow you with your own core ability.  ::)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 19, 2015, 03:31:39 am

Well

I guess it depends... You can be a Wizard and have all the spells

Or a Sorcerer and have a few spells :P

Anyhow Sorcerers are the Monks of the Arcane casters. They trade off versatility and "consistent" abilities for one off abilities.

As for the choices in 3.5 and how deep it was... Ehh you were just picking your poison.

Also don't forget that as much as you complain "You want to play an arcane caster in 5e? Play a sorcerer"... 3.5 it was "You want to be an arcane caster in 3.5? Be a Wizard, don't even bother with Sorcerers"... It was pathfinder that by far spruced up Sorcerers enough to make them worth playing over Wizards... and even then Wizards are still better.

In 5e Sorcerers are Alpha Damage and Wizards are Damage over time... In a long drawn out battle a Wizard beats a Sorcerer without even trying.

I really don't see the flat out "Sorcerers are better" aspect you see... maybe more interesting (afterall Sorcerers have a few more considerations to make battle to battle), but certainly not "obviously better".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 19, 2015, 09:09:30 am

Neo, FD, just a friendly remainder because this hasn't gotten out of hand yet, please refrain from comparing various editions on this thread.

Again, this is purely a friendly reminder, and you guys are fine, but version comparison is outside of this threads' scope.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 19, 2015, 09:15:33 am

I never did quite get input on if it was reasonable to hide skill check rolls from the players. (In particular Insight, Perception, Sleight of Hand and Deception.) I've decided that obfuscating attack rolls, damage rolls and the like is a bit unfair, but I do believe there is good reason for at least those four skills. Most of the others there's no real point - even if your exact roll for an athletics check was hidden the results are still immediate and obvious.

Also, where's 'dat Critonomicon stuff FD? :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 19, 2015, 10:21:06 am

My general rule of thumb UXLZ is "If it is something someone would notice, do it publically" or "If it is something where failing would be obscured, you can do it hidden"

Doing anything as a hidden check is fine.

But my experience tells me that even when justified... most players loathe hidden checks or start acting incredibly paranoid when you start doing it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 19, 2015, 10:30:12 am

I'm thinking of something like them Sleight of Handing something in or out of a guy's pockets and he notices but chooses not to react for whatever reason.

If they roll low, they're gonna be ridiculously suspicious if it still apparently goes off without a hitch. That's why I want to hide it, and I have to hide it all the time or they'll immediately know "Oh, here's a place where something special might happen" or hide it some of the time where it doesn't matter, and then they'll just be paranoid anyway.

As a player, I like it when the DM hides rolls from me. Then again, I'm also the kind of person that likes having contingencies for if my contingencies, and a plan Omicron in case plan RIII fails.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 19, 2015, 10:33:02 am

Well, like Neo said, that is likely to make them paranoid, but generally such activities should be conducted with a sense of paranoia.

In general I make my players roll for themselves, but I don't see any real problem with the kinds of rolls you suggested being made in secret.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on August 19, 2015, 11:09:28 am

I think hiding those rolls would work well. Keeps a sense of mystery which is appropriate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 19, 2015, 03:03:06 pm

Yeah, Sleight of Hand and Deception I could easily see being hidden. Insight and Perception less so, because unless you just give flat "You see/hear/know/find/&c. nothing," you're going to end up more or less telling players that they failed anyways, which in turn means they'll keep trying. In situations where they knew they failed, they'd do so as well, but in situations where they got high rolls and still got nothing back they wouldn't if they could see the rolls because they'd know it was probably because there actually wasn't anything to be found (or it was behind a very high DC). In other words either it'll slow down play as everyone stops to make those checks a time or three just in case, or you're going to effectively tell them whether they succeeded or failed in the interest of not being boring (and possibly speeding things along).

Quote from: UXLZ on August 19, 2015, 09:15:33 am

I never did quite get input on if it was reasonable to hide skill check rolls from the players. (In particular Insight, Perception, Sleight of Hand and Deception.) I've decided that obfuscating attack rolls, damage rolls and the like is a bit unfair, but I do believe there is good reason for at least those four skills. Most of the others there's no real point - even if your exact roll for an athletics check was hidden the results are still immediate and obvious.

Also, where's 'dat Critonomicon stuff FD? :v

Herp forgot to send it. I'd be more circumspect, but frankly it's a rare out-of-print third party supplement published by a now-defunct company. >.>

_{The hunt consumes all.}

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 19, 2015, 09:09:30 am

Neo, FD, just a friendly remainder because this hasn't gotten out of hand yet, please refrain from comparing various editions on this thread.

Again, this is purely a friendly reminder, and you guys are fine, but version comparison is outside of this threads' scope.

Apologies regardless, I was just trying to clarify and that conversation ended up traveling a bit far from where it began.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 20, 2015, 02:22:03 am

I was thinking more that I'd remove Insight as an "active" thing from the game. Whenever the party encountered someone whom it might affect, I'd roll their (highest?) Insight versus that guy's deception or something, and it would stick for the rest of the conversation. Something like this as a general example.

Stranger A walks up to PC, Stranger rolls 3, PC rolls 10.

"As the unknown man came towards you, a chill went down your spine. His face looked cheerful and kind enough, there was nothing wrong with what he was wearing, but... You could just feel it. You knew he was bad news."

Stranger A walks up to PC, Stranger rolls 10, PC rolls 3.

"Out of the corner of your eye you spot a jovial old man walking up to you, a smile on his face. He seems happy to see you. Perhaps he needs something?"

That sorta difference. 

I guess that would just overcomplicate things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on August 20, 2015, 02:32:57 am

So a question for you fine folks: Would it be theoretically possible for any number of low-level D&D characters (say, each level 4) to eventually triumph over some of the nastier monsters? Things like the tarrasque or great wyrms. My understanding is that such creatures are usually battled by groups of high-level, specially-kitted adventurers. I want to know if zerg rushing could ever succeed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 20, 2015, 02:39:43 am

The Tarrasque is a bad example. It might say "Challenge Rating 30" but it is far, far weaker than that.

Also, yes, I'd wager ~30 level 5 adventurers could beat any solo "Big Bad" monster assuming it didn't blast them like crazy with AoE. Gated Accuracy and all that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 20, 2015, 04:49:27 am

What edition, Sirus?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 20, 2015, 05:16:58 am

Theoretically you could bring down the Tarrasque with a single casting of Ray of Stupidity, at the whopping cost of a second level spell slot. All you need is a way to overcome the SR. As a 5th level Wizard or Sorcerer you could have Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. Assume they're human and took Weapon Focus: Ray. Assume that they've also got 18 Dex.

So right there we've got a 5th level arcane caster. They've got: 1d20 + 3 to hit with that ray, for a range from 4-23 on their attack roll. Anything over 5 beats the Tarrasque's Touch AC, so any roll higher than 2 is a hit. The Tarrasque also has Spell Resistance 32, which is the big problem.

You've got +4 Spell Pen from feats. Assuming our caster is still 5th level, that means their roll to overcome is 1d20+9, for a maximum of 29, not good enough.

However, if they are 8th level, they get access to Assay Spell Resistance, which for our purposes amounts to an extra +10 to overcome SR on that crucial attack. At 8th level combined with that, we're up to 1d20+22 for the check to overcome, ranging from 23 to 42. A roll of 11 or higher succeeds. Bam. That's it.

All it takes to bring down the 3.5e Tarrasque is one properly-specced Wizard or Sorcerer with one 4th level spell, one 2nd level spell, one ludicrously low roll, and one slightly above average roll. Maybe a casting of Invisibility beforehand to get close enough. That one mid-level caster can encounter-kill the Tarrasque thanks to a broken spell and the beastie's 3 Int. As long as they've brought along a crowd to beat on the unconscious Tarrasque with an endless series of coup de grace attacks, which are all automatic hits and confirmed criticals. If you've got even a single martial character capable of dishing out damage in the mid-40s, every round is a potential instant death if the Tarrasque fails the Fort save.

disclaimer: it's 6:14 AM and I have no idea how stupid I am right now. But yes, theoretically you could kill the Tarrasque with one 8th level caster and a mob of Commoners with daggers and clubs. If you roll a 1 on the d4, it'll take a second casting of the ray.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 20, 2015, 07:04:38 am

You need Wish to actually kill it as far as I remember, but yes, you can defeat it like that.

Here's another method.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/af/Kill_tarrasque.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 20, 2015, 07:09:48 am

Immune to that spell.

There are spells that can trump the Tarresque but that isn't one of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on August 20, 2015, 11:30:39 am

Quote from: scriver on August 20, 2015, 04:49:27 am

What edition, Sirus?

Call it 3.5. I'm guessing it's what Flying Dice was working off of, and it's the only edition I have easy access to monster stats for anyway.

@Flying Dice: See, this is why I ask the experts :P
I was knocking an idea around in my head for a one-shot "campaign" in which a Big Bad monster is approaching a city and the only available defenders are fairly low-leveled. My hope was that the verdict would be "doable, but difficult and at the cost of many characters' lives". I went with the tarrasque because I was under the impression that it was a potentially world-ending beastie.

So if the tarrasque can be so easily brought down, what might be a better candidate?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 20, 2015, 12:04:21 pm

A continent-sized Nishruu.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on August 20, 2015, 12:11:36 pm

Quote from: Sirus on August 20, 2015, 11:30:39 am

I was knocking an idea around in my head for a one-shot "campaign" in which a Big Bad monster is approaching a city and the only available defenders are fairly low-leveled. My hope was that the verdict would be "doable, but difficult and at the cost of many characters' lives".

I hope not to much effort needs to be put into character creation?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 20, 2015, 05:36:37 pm

The tarrasque has immunity to rays as an extraordinary ability.

Quote

Carapace (Ex)

The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on August 21, 2015, 10:01:28 pm

Quote from: Sirus on August 20, 2015, 11:30:39 am

I was knocking an idea around in my head for a one-shot "campaign" in which a Big Bad monster is approaching a city and the only available defenders are fairly low-leveled. My hope was that the verdict would be "doable, but difficult and at the cost of many characters' lives". I went with the tarrasque because I was under the impression that it was a potentially world-ending beastie.

So if the tarrasque can be so easily brought down, what might be a better candidate?

I sent you an idea for it by PM. I think it fits your criteria nicely. You may share it if you wish, or if you wish to keep it to yourself to spring on your players you can. That's why I sent it via PM. :P

For those of you wondering: It's just using the "increase a creature's hit dice" and refluffing a creature rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 21, 2015, 10:08:54 pm

The tarasque can also be defeated by having the cleric convince it to convert it to their religion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 22, 2015, 03:34:15 am

Better not be a cleric of Tempus or Garagos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 22, 2015, 05:15:03 pm

Found out that you give Trap EXP pretty much if the party knows it exists.

There is something that doesn't sit right with me for someone getting exp because they tripped a landmine but I guess I can't really complain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 22, 2015, 05:31:13 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on August 20, 2015, 07:09:48 am

Immune to that spell.

There are spells that can trump the Tarresque but that isn't one of them.

Herp, that'd be it. At least I had enough clarity at whatever ungodly hour that was to know that I'd inevitably forget about something.

I also specifically didn't bring up the lasso trick because that requires a DM who will let you get away with basically anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 22, 2015, 05:39:44 pm

I guess I don't like it under the same principal of "Diablo could have won if only he didn't constantly send EXP and equipment the heroes way" In Diablo 2.

Weak traps which are good for just getting a cheap shot in here and there... seem to empower the PCs more then hurt them.

Might as well have the trap fire gold coins and gems at them.

Disabling the trap without falling prey to it (or disabling it after falling prey if it is continuous or a resetting trap), was always what I used as a bench mark.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 22, 2015, 06:49:42 pm

Eeh, I've always seen that as more about successfully overcoming a challenge, even if you did it in the most hamfisted blindly idiotic way possible. Considering that people still get exp as long as they survive combats, even if their approach was the equivalent of "stick your hand in the bear trap to see if it's armed, then beat it against a wall until the hinge breaks".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 22, 2015, 08:48:09 pm

Basically it is a way to force traps to have to be higher CRs, otherwise your just feeding the PCs.

It means that my itching powder trap was worth 100 exp per player.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on August 22, 2015, 08:50:21 pm

If getting exp for setting of traps annoys you, couldn't you just house-rule it out if you're the DM, or mention it to the DM if you're a player? I've always seen the rules in these sorts of games as a general guideline more than set in stone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 22, 2015, 08:52:42 pm

Quote from: Twinwolf on August 22, 2015, 08:50:21 pm

If getting exp for setting of traps annoys you, couldn't you just house-rule it out if you're the DM, or mention it to the DM if you're a player? I've always seen the rules in these sorts of games as a general guideline more than set in stone.

Players get really mad if you gimp them out of exp.

Which is odd because I've always had it where traps don't give EXP unless you circumvent them somehow. xD I've never gotten exp for activating traps.

I already have a rule where you cannot gain EXP off someone who has no interest in fighting who doesn't fight back. At least to dissuade people from intentionally killing townsmen just because they hear they have some skill.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on August 22, 2015, 08:55:30 pm

Really, this is the first I've heard of the getting exp for getting past traps thing. My character in a 5e game on the forums got past a bunch of them and didn't get any.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 22, 2015, 11:19:48 pm

All official trap designs I've ever seen included a CR and an exp award.

For example, here's a simple pit trap from PF:

Quote

Pit Trap
   CR 1/4

XP 65

Type mechanical; Perception DC 15; Disable Device DC 20
EFFECTS

Trigger location; Reset manual

Effect 10-ft.-deep pit (1d6 nonlethal falling damage); DC 20 Reflex avoids; multiple targets (all targets in the trap’s area).

This pit trap is not intended to harm its victims. There are a host of hidden pit traps scattered throughout the room. To lessen the danger, a mound of pillows has been placed at the bottom of each pit to cushion the fall of anyone who gets caught in one. Probing for the pits with a pole or weapon grants a +4 circumstance bonus on the Reflex save to avoid falling into a pit.

It's not a very good trap, and it doesn't award more than a pittance of exp. Here's a much higher CR trap, also from PF:

Quote

Prison of Blades    CR 16

XP 76,800

Type magic; Perception DC 35; Disable Device DC 35
EFFECTS

Trigger visual (true seeing); Reset automatic (5 minutes)

Effect spell effects (forcecage, windowless cell, DC 20 Reflex save or be trapped inside for 13 rounds), two mage’s sword spells shaped to look like ranseurs attack anyone inside the cage for 13 rounds (Atk +19 melee [4d6+3/19–20]); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft. cube)

The rules also always say something to the effect of "The party earns exp for defeating the trap." It's like any other encounter: if the party never finds it, they get no exp because the encounter never happened. If they defeat it by disabling it or escaping it, they earn exp. There's also a specific instance from the DMG regarding traps in combat:

Quote

If the characters overcome a combat encounter where a trap or hazard presented a threat during the encounter, give them XP for the trap or hazard even if they didn’t disable or neutralize it

Basically as long as the party encounters the trap, they should get the exp value of it unless they completely fail: if they die or are forced to backtrack and find another way around the trap, no exp, otherwise yes.

If you have problems with traps giving exp, either don't use many traps or make sure they're good ones that will have a CR-appropriate impact on the party, their resources, and possibly even their minds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 22, 2015, 11:28:32 pm

Traps are better as an overall effect then an outright KILL THEM!!! effect

But the game outright begs you to make traps to outright kill the players if they don't find it in advance...

I just flat out don't like getting a exp bonus for being hit in the face... So long as what hit you was a trap.

At least when monsters attack you, you have to move, attack, and weave and stuff.

But if the trap was a wall of fire, for example, you get exp the first time you decide to walk through it and soak all the damage.

Did you have to use some resistance to mitigate or eliminate the damage? Nope. Do you have to disenchant it? Nope.

It is nonsense to me. It is the equivalent of an encounter being you tied up while a troll hits you in the head... but he suffers a heart attack... and since he 'technically died hitting you' you get the exp as if you actually fought the troll.

You "stopping the trap" and "Circumventing the trap" was purely incidental... The Trap did its dang job you foiled absolutely nothing. You could have been entirely replaced by an inanimate object and had the same effect and it would have been more effective.

Who do you think you are? Superman? Just because you know it is a trap it doesn't mean you have to jump into it.

---

I am just going to have to remember to houserule it for now on that traps do not give exp for "falling" for a trap. You have to disable or circumvent it.

That is how all my DMs did it anyhow... and how it makes sense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 23, 2015, 02:07:22 am

Well, with that troll... the party would get the exp. 'Cause, y'know, they were in combat and took injuries before DM fiat killed it.

What difference is there between a trap or a creature when they both boil down to:

1. Party encounters obstacle, possibly noticing it before stumbling into it.
2. If obstacle was detected beforehand, party member specialized for dealing with that sort of obstacle (aka someone who isn't BSF) might attempt to do so.
3. If 2 does not happen, fails, or the party does not notice the obstacle, then the obstacle attempts to harm the party and drain their resources.
4. Party members check their stats and possibly make rolls to see whether the obstacle's innate abilities and rolls are sufficient to harm or inconvenience them.
5a. The party successfully overcomes the obstacle and is awarded experience along with the opportunity to steal anything worth taking from it.
5b. All members of the party are killed or retreat without overcoming the obstacle. No exp.

Besides, the most effective indirect traps are also the biggest pain to deal with for everyone involved (hint: teleporation, preferably random or into danger, or both). Traps that neither split the party nor attempt to do damage would need some sort of long-term or permanent affect, and would probably both be too high CR to feasibly use in most campaigns as well as incredibly annoying. Maybe you could mock something up that splashed de-aging water instead of acid or something, meh. Spears or darts tipped with hallucinogens instead of poison.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 02:15:51 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There was no combat. You don't need to be in combat to attack, this isn't a videogame

And who said DM Fiat? Maybe that Troll had a heart condition before hand.

Also traps that split the party or do long term affect wouldn't be "Too high a CR", 3.5 makes use of them all the time (typically a trap that causes no harm gives no exp... The "Bonus exp" would be in the difficulty modifiers for the next encounters). This is ignoring that spells directly apply their circle in CR. HECK most harmless traps aren't intended as a trap, they might be a secret passage that the players blundered into.

But yes I also ignore harmless traps regardless of what the rules say. Disabling a teleportation trap capable of teleporting the entire party into a model replica of the same room isn't going to win you "mass teleport" exp (mostly because it just becomes a bloat). I might give a bit, but you didn't really achieve anything.

Which is kind of a thing... Getting hit by a trap isn't an achievement nor is it a learning experience... at least no more so then the basic exp just for beating an area is.

I mean the trap was built, hidden, and put there to hurt you... and you foil it by... falling for it. Which is exactly what it was trying to do (and MOST traps aren't meant to kill you but weaken you off)

---

Then again as I said, I've never ever gotten a single bit of exp for not foiling a trap.

Heck one DM I had basically went the extra mile and if you got hurt by a trap at all... you just flat out don't get the exp regardless if you disable it later or not.

I've never ever heard of until just yesterday of earning exp for basically being a dummy who falls into a pit trap and needs to be roped out. It is the dumbest thing rule wise I ever heard (while Anti-plague is more of a setting issue in being a piece of technology that is outright many times more advanced then a even a renaissance setting would suggest)... It feels like incompetence EXP. No other system I have ever played rewards you for incompetence... At most they give you "Well you tried your best", even if that failure manages to hurt you dearly. The closest I have ever seen are games where there is a pittance reward for "Failing so spectacularly that everyone has a great time".

but then again "EXP for just seeing a trap that exists" is a pathfinder thing. It is the only edition of D20 that does so. But then again Pathfinder is a very "I want to give you full exp no matter what you do" system. So choosing, for example, to bribe the god not to kill the city nets you exp equal to defeating the god. It is probably the worst aspect of Pathfinder now that it has been brought to my attention.

Which means EXP in Pathfinder isn't "Experience" but rather some intangible reward taking out of roleplay and right into "videogame". To say that bribing someone with money you have on hand is the same equivalent learning experience as actually facing them in mortal combat is just flat out abhorrent.

---

I know sometimes you have to kind of fudge things

Generally speaking I don't give exp for someone being killed outside of a combat thing... Casting Cloud Kill doesn't net you exp for every person who dies from it after you left the area because you aren't learning from it even if we do it by a move by move thing.

---

Honestly this whole "EXP for having nothing happen" makes me want to just throw away Pathfinder on the spot.

Oh well I'll see how I feel in the morning or when my ADs kick in again.

Either that or I should, to relieve stress, have a parody team where you are a bunch of archeologists and when you discover a new creature from the bones it left behind or from reading books... you gain exp because "You noticed it and it died... Even if it died in the past"... But I don't think people would enjoy playing in mean spirited parody games... Even if that would help me come to grips with this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 23, 2015, 04:25:51 am

Today's session was more slow paced compared to the past few weeks, thief girl had a very serious character moment, as did the paladin.  Not a tremendous amount of progress overall, but they did manage to get ahold of information that makes their next step a bit more straightforward.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 23, 2015, 04:36:35 am

Getting XP for disarming a trap with your face does kind of make sense from a certain point of view - whatever does not kill you serves to make you stronger. It works if you consider XP as a mechanical representation of learning.

On the other hand, you can also consider XP as your official adventuring credibility, in which case getting XP for falling into a trap like a complete nitwit does not make nearly as much sense. Though if you tank a fireball and walk it off like nobody's business, jump 20 feet in the air to get out of a pit you fell into, step right through a cloud of poison gas while holding your nose or rip open a metal cage you got trapped inside of with your bare hands, you could say that this does raise your adventuring credibility as well. So you could compromise and say that if you do get caught in a trap, you get XP for it if you can free yourself from it without any need for assistance from someone not caught in it, preferably with hilarious displays of brute force.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 05:02:55 am

But the key is you didn't try and you expended no effort.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 23, 2015, 08:35:38 am

Ripping open a cage or walking through fire sounds like a significant effort. It's not the wizard or rogue solution, but it's a solution some characters are good at.
It expends healing and/or involves risk, unless the trap is harmlessly weak. Seeing it in action sounds just as educational as having the rogue cut a tripwire, for example.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 23, 2015, 09:48:41 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 05:02:55 am

But the key is you didn't try and you expended no effort.

A good rule to check whether you should award XP for bypassing an obstacle (that is, if adventurer cred is the ruling interpretation of XP) is whether the bypasser could brag about the achievement afterward and impress somebody reasonably common without bending the truth. It covers a whole lot of categories of problem solving - through cleverness, toughness, strength, quickness, dumb luck and what have you.

For instance, if you get narrowly missed by a glass skull full of ravenous demonic worms that fell from the ceiling due to your incredible reflexes, you can tell as much to a man in a tavern and he'd be like 'good reflexes, mate'. If the skull hits you, but the worms fail to penetrate your rock-hard pectorals in their path to your heart before you scour them from your body, that's perfectly fine to tell people as well. But if the skull hits you, you get a demonic worm infestation and the entire party takes a short rest while you get dewormed by the cleric, that doesn't reflect well at all on you. So no XP in the latter case. Same thing if a set of demonic worms burrow through your eardrums and lay eggs in your brain, causing you to slice the wizard in half with your greataxe because he looks like a monster suddenly - not something you can brag about in a tavern, that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 23, 2015, 10:49:31 am

Depends how well liked the wizard was, perhaps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on August 23, 2015, 01:33:46 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 23, 2015, 09:48:41 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 05:02:55 am

But the key is you didn't try and you expended no effort.

A good rule to check whether you should award XP for bypassing an obstacle (that is, if adventurer cred is the ruling interpretation of XP) is whether the bypasser could brag about the achievement afterward and impress somebody reasonably common without bending the truth. It covers a whole lot of categories of problem solving - through cleverness, toughness, strength, quickness, dumb luck and what have you.

For instance, if you get narrowly missed by a glass skull full of ravenous demonic worms that fell from the ceiling due to your incredible reflexes, you can tell as much to a man in a tavern and he'd be like 'good reflexes, mate'. If the skull hits you, but the worms fail to penetrate your rock-hard pectorals in their path to your heart before you scour them from your body, that's perfectly fine to tell people as well. But if the skull hits you, you get a demonic worm infestation and the entire party takes a short rest while you get dewormed by the cleric, that doesn't reflect well at all on you. So no XP in the latter case. Same thing if a set of demonic worms burrow through your eardrums and lay eggs in your brain, causing you to slice the wizard in half with your greataxe because he looks like a monster suddenly - not something you can brag about in a tavern, that.

Sounds less like overcoming obstacles and more like accomplishing great deeds, which I am all in favor of. Rather than be encouraged to make things harder on themselves, or kill every single living thing in a dungeon like some sort of obsessive-compulsive sociopaths, players should be encouraged to think up creative ways to solve their problems, without having to worry that they might miss out on XP because they didn't encounter some pointless trap or monster. That's why I'm fond of early D&D's XP-for-gold system over the later emphasis on defeating monsters: it rewards results instead of adhering to a specific process.

Also, using an accomplishments based system adds in a unique way to put in more time pressure. Since you're going by overall impressive accomplishments rather than just beating an encounter, it makes sense that being able to beat a dungeon or whatever quicker than you'd expect would make the accomplishment more impressive. So an idea I had for when I run is that there'd be a certain amount of quickness XP for beating the dungeon, and that would go down each day. So when the spellcasters are down a few slots and say they want to rest for the day, I can say, "Sure, you can do that, it seems pretty safe right here. But that means you'll lose 5% bonus XP. Are you sure you don't want to press on a little while longer?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 23, 2015, 01:49:59 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 23, 2015, 09:48:41 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 05:02:55 am

But the key is you didn't try and you expended no effort.

A good rule to check whether you should award XP for bypassing an obstacle (that is, if adventurer cred is the ruling interpretation of XP) is whether the bypasser could brag about the achievement afterward and impress somebody reasonably common without bending the truth. It covers a whole lot of categories of problem solving - through cleverness, toughness, strength, quickness, dumb luck and what have you.

For instance, if you get narrowly missed by a glass skull full of ravenous demonic worms that fell from the ceiling due to your incredible reflexes, you can tell as much to a man in a tavern and he'd be like 'good reflexes, mate'. If the skull hits you, but the worms fail to penetrate your rock-hard pectorals in their path to your heart before you scour them from your body, that's perfectly fine to tell people as well. But if the skull hits you, you get a demonic worm infestation and the entire party takes a short rest while you get dewormed by the cleric, that doesn't reflect well at all on you. So no XP in the latter case. Same thing if a set of demonic worms burrow through your eardrums and lay eggs in your brain, causing you to slice the wizard in half with your greataxe because he looks like a monster suddenly - not something you can brag about in a tavern, that.

Isn't XP generally assigned to everyone in the party? The cleric or group deserves credit for healing that. Even just surviving it in the first place is impressive...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 23, 2015, 02:06:36 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 23, 2015, 01:49:59 pm

Isn't XP generally assigned to everyone in the party? The cleric or group deserves credit for healing that. Even just surviving it in the first place is impressive...

Do bear in mind that a cleric (and also a wizard, or a sorcerer or something of that nature) would presumably have a slightly different audience. So if he just cast Remove Disease (or Remove Curse, or some higher level alternative) or something they'd be like "yeah, sure, that's what you do in that case". But if he had to take up a giant needle or a fishing hook and spend the better part of an hour pulling devilish spawn from the flesh of his idiot compatriot, now that'd be something to brag about. Or if he had a clever deworming idea like, say, blowing a whole lot of holy incense into the bloody holes the worms left to make them come up for less sanctified air and then putting them all in a glass jar he was carrying, which he could then show off to people later.

Quote from: Kadzar on August 23, 2015, 01:33:46 pm

Also, using an accomplishments based system adds in a unique way to put in more time pressure. Since you're going by overall impressive accomplishments rather than just beating an encounter, it makes sense that being able to beat a dungeon or whatever quicker than you'd expect would make the accomplishment more impressive. So an idea I had for when I run is that there'd be a certain amount of quickness XP for beating the dungeon, and that would go down each day. So when the spellcasters are down a few slots and say they want to rest for the day, I can say, "Sure, you can do that, it seems pretty safe right here. But that means you'll lose 5% bonus XP. Are you sure you don't want to press on a little while longer?"

"What? You mean you plopped yourselves down on the cave floor and rested for nine bloody hours while the necromancer was squatting down the hall doing the same? You damn muppets! That's not how real heroes do it! You have to charge in, show them who's boss! Steamroll those fools!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on August 23, 2015, 03:22:07 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 23, 2015, 02:06:36 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on August 23, 2015, 01:33:46 pm

Also, using an accomplishments based system adds in a unique way to put in more time pressure. Since you're going by overall impressive accomplishments rather than just beating an encounter, it makes sense that being able to beat a dungeon or whatever quicker than you'd expect would make the accomplishment more impressive. So an idea I had for when I run is that there'd be a certain amount of quickness XP for beating the dungeon, and that would go down each day. So when the spellcasters are down a few slots and say they want to rest for the day, I can say, "Sure, you can do that, it seems pretty safe right here. But that means you'll lose 5% bonus XP. Are you sure you don't want to press on a little while longer?"

"What? You mean you plopped yourselves down on the cave floor and rested for nine bloody hours while the necromancer was squatting down the hall doing the same? You damn muppets! That's not how real heroes do it! You have to charge in, show them who's boss! Steamroll those fools!"

Well, I mean it's one way to put in time pressure, especially if you're doing an open world game or something where it feels forced to put in a time pressure in the setting. And even if you have natural time pressures, it's good to have a resource to limit rests other than rations (which quickly stop being a worry after, like level 1, if even then).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 23, 2015, 03:58:30 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 23, 2015, 02:06:36 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on August 23, 2015, 01:33:46 pm

Also, using an accomplishments based system adds in a unique way to put in more time pressure. Since you're going by overall impressive accomplishments rather than just beating an encounter, it makes sense that being able to beat a dungeon or whatever quicker than you'd expect would make the accomplishment more impressive. So an idea I had for when I run is that there'd be a certain amount of quickness XP for beating the dungeon, and that would go down each day. So when the spellcasters are down a few slots and say they want to rest for the day, I can say, "Sure, you can do that, it seems pretty safe right here. But that means you'll lose 5% bonus XP. Are you sure you don't want to press on a little while longer?"

"What? You mean you plopped yourselves down on the cave floor and rested for nine bloody hours while the necromancer was squatting down the hall doing the same? You damn muppets! That's not how real heroes do it! You have to charge in, show them who's boss! Steamroll those fools!"

That brings up a good point regarding wizards and other full spellcasters supposedly being overpowered. A large portion of that is likely due to lazy DMs (and also lazy videogame adaptations) basically handwaving the rest requirement for re-preparing spells. They'll generally make you rest, but the dungeon isn't even partially repaired or restaffed while the PCs are slogging their way back to the inn or if the PCs instead try to sleep in the dungeon they aren't immediately apprehended and/or coup-de-graced, and in either case the villain's evil plan never advances. I've been on beach vacations that have been more urgently hurried than the way these people save the world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 04:00:47 pm

Your forgetting Bohandas that there is a low level spell that immediately negates the "sleeping in the open" issue. In fact it can also can be used as a way of retreat.

The ONLY counter for a DM against that spell is a creature with a planar travel spell, meaning high level demons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 23, 2015, 11:09:52 pm

You need to be at least level 8 to use rope trick for that purpose; it doesn't last long enough otherwise. You also have to leave any bags of holding outside. And It may still be found by patrols wih the capacity to detect magic; divinations don't reach into the extradimensional space, but there's nothing about then not being able to detect the extradimensional space or the spell itself; furthermore even seeing into it may also be possible with the various spells specifically designed to look into portals and extradimensional spaces.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on August 23, 2015, 11:35:31 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on August 23, 2015, 11:09:52 pm

You also have to leave any bags of holding outside.

What? No, they simply don't work within the rope trick. The only things that explode are portable holes and bags of holding.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 23, 2015, 11:38:28 pm

Quote from: From the text of the Rope Trick spell (3.5e SRD version)

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 23, 2015, 11:40:18 pm

Umm...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 11:47:36 pm

Ropetrick is its own demiplane :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 24, 2015, 01:27:10 am

The first point was correct in any case. Rope Trick is one of those caster things that's pretty stupid void of context, but which rarely comes up in game in a way that's actually overpowering.

Not to mention that it can't really be used as a Get Out of Encounter Free card, considering that you have to leave from the same place you entered eventually. If the enemy had anyone capable of knowing what you did, that's reason enough for the DM to have had them set up traps and prepared to ambush the party when they left.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on August 24, 2015, 02:01:20 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on August 23, 2015, 11:38:28 pm

Quote from: From the text of the Rope Trick spell (3.5e SRD version)

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

It's a vague warning at the very least. Errata confirmed that the only things that explode are bags of holding and portable holes. Other extradimensional spaces simply stop working when inside another e-d space.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 24, 2015, 02:13:47 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 11:47:36 pm

Ropetrick is its own demiplane :P

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”).

---snip---

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

I dunno, man. It seems to pretty explicitly say it's an extradimensional space outside of the planes. If it was a demiplane, it probably wouldn't bother with the warning, either, because it wouldn't be relevant.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 24, 2015, 02:22:03 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on August 24, 2015, 01:27:10 am

Not to mention that it can't really be used as a Get Out of Encounter Free card, considering that you have to leave from the same place you entered eventually. If the enemy had anyone capable of knowing what you did, that's reason enough for the DM to have had them set up traps and prepared to ambush the party when they left.

Open up the rope trick hole, see the traps, negate them... leave harmlessly... all thanks to a single spell.

Besides think about what you are all saying. In order to balance ONE spell you have to overwhelmingly put the entire dungeons resources against him, have creatures with full encyclopedic magical knowledge (Which only a select few have), masterful trap making skills capable of laying magical traps in meer hours (Which none have... Where traps come from are often a DM fiat), all for one wizard that could have half-assed his training. Even ancient dragons couldn't pull off what you are referring to.

If anything you are proving just how overpowered it is by saying the exact requirements to stop a single spell.

Remember Rope Trick doesn't "Just end" they can look out the hole... along other things ("Ohh look they are making traps, Fireball... Sorry still in perfect safety!")... honestly I am not even trying to break the system, this is just a single spell. I haven't even got into combinations or some of the other little tricks wizards have.

Basically I'll put it this way...

The game doesn't attempt to negate Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Clerics, Druids, Bards, Rangers, or monks (Rogues are negated because... well 3.5 doesn't do rogues well)... The only characters 3.5 guns for, where at least half the monsters in existence are geared towards dealing with... are Wizards... And even then Wizards STILL can easily anti-negate... Any Wizard worth his salt ignores spell resistance and can defeat spell immunity.

Even Order of the Stick makes jokes about it.

---

All in all my experience with Wizards is that players who use them, and know them well enough, are intentionally trying not to break the game. All the while knowing exactly how to break the game, unless the DM intentionally makes things up to prevent that ("Ohh the villain is a super wizard, or the villain has a magic castle that blocks you")

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on August 24, 2015, 02:25:34 pm

From the d20pfsrd:

Extradimensional Spaces

A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.

Also, @Flying Dice, remember that they have to pull a rope up after them. Otherwise anyone can get in! And they have to climb up into it, thus revealing the fact that they are hidden in the hole.

It's mostly used to replace a single spell from AD&D that worked like Time Stop, that had eight hours pass in a bubble such that it was only a few minutes/seconds outside the bubble.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 24, 2015, 11:18:08 pm

As usual, I only know 3.5e...  Sorry if PF is different.

Quote from: Neonivek on August 24, 2015, 02:22:03 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on August 24, 2015, 01:27:10 am

Not to mention that it can't really be used as a Get Out of Encounter Free card, considering that you have to leave from the same place you entered eventually. If the enemy had anyone capable of knowing what you did, that's reason enough for the DM to have had them set up traps and prepared to ambush the party when they left.

Open up the rope trick hole, see the traps, negate them... leave harmlessly... all thanks to a single spell.

Negate them... how?  Can't cast across the border, which means the traps are just as deadly as any other traps.  The rogue has to partly leave the hole to attempt to disarm, becoming vulnerable (and visible).

Quote from: Neonivek on August 24, 2015, 02:22:03 pm

Besides think about what you are all saying. In order to balance ONE spell you have to overwhelmingly put the entire dungeons resources against him, have creatures with full encyclopedic magical knowledge (Which only a select few have), masterful trap making skills capable of laying magical traps in meer hours (Which none have... Where traps come from are often a DM fiat), all for one wizard that could have half-assed his training. Even ancient dragons couldn't pull off what you are referring to.

If anything you are proving just how overpowered it is by saying the exact requirements to stop a single spell.

Remember Rope Trick doesn't "Just end" they can look out the hole... along other things ("Ohh look they are making traps, Fireball... Sorry still in perfect safety!")... honestly I am not even trying to break the system, this is just a single spell. I haven't even got into combinations or some of the other little tricks wizards have.

Fireball from a rope trick is very iffy.  I know fireballs and other evocations bypass spell resistance, but it's still casting a spell across the border.  Shouldn't work in my opinion.

And it's a level 2 spell, you don't need "full encyclopedic magical knowledge".  Some shmuck with spellcraft of 2 has a 25% chance to identify the spell precisely.  But anyone can quite reasonably say "Hey, they climbed that rope into an invisible hole.  Maybe it's still there". 

Keep in mind "The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time."  The climb DC for a rope trick rope is specifically 5, which means there's very little risk... But, don't forget armor check penalty or strength modifier to Climb!  Paladin and spindly spellcasters might want some cross-class ranks.

Let's say our cowardly wizard casts rope trick and rolls a 10.  -2 STR, but the DC's only 5.  He can now move... 1/4 of his speed up the rope.  For a normal creature, 7 feet up.  Well within vertical reach of inquisitive enemies who just watched the wizard climb up a rope into nothing.  They could stand underneath and *jump* to see what's inside, or just blindfight into it.

Assuming initiative is such that the whole party moves before the enemy get a chance (probably by holding turns) they might be able to move or sprint to and up the rope.  As long as they can move up to the rope and make the climb check, within their movement allowance.  If they can hit a 10 instead of a 5, they can even climb at half instead of a quarter.  20-speed creatures might need to do that, even if the rope is the minimum 5ft.

It doesn't say what type of action it is to pull the rope up, which I think makes it a standard action by default...  Either way, if someone didn't have to act or sprint, they might be able to pull off an amazingly coordinated escape and hide the evidence...

Into the 5-30ft high hole, and I'd love to see a level 3 party that made it up a 30ft rope like that without courting disaster.  No, practically speaking it's going to be within the 10ft vertical reach of medium creatures.

Which I guess is where things get really weird and undefined.  The space can hold 8 creatures (including the rope), but it's not clear how *big* it is.  I guess arguably it's unbounded, so the party members can simply back away from the hole and be safe... but then enemies may enter if it's not at capacity.  If they can vertical-leap high enough to reach the hole, I'd say they can grab the edge and climb up (harder than with a rope, but still).  Or fish the rope out with a weapon...  Which interestingly frees up a space within the... space.

The hole is impressively stealthy unless *you do it in front of people*, in which case it's very vulnerable to intruders.  Which matches its purpose as a safe place to sleep, not escape.  And once detected, it's quite vulnerable to assault or ambush.  The occupants do have the advantage of being invisible, but they're also cornered and can't cast across (nobody can, but still).  And climbing inside is not even trivial, particularly in a combat situation.

Quote from: Neonivek on August 24, 2015, 02:22:03 pm

Basically I'll put it this way...

The game doesn't attempt to negate Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Clerics, Druids, Bards, Rangers, or monks (Rogues are negated because... well 3.5 doesn't do rogues well)... The only characters 3.5 guns for, where at least half the monsters in existence are geared towards dealing with... are Wizards... And even then Wizards STILL can easily anti-negate... Any Wizard worth his salt ignores spell resistance and can defeat spell immunity.

Even Order of the Stick makes jokes about it.

---

All in all my experience with Wizards is that players who use them, and know them well enough, are intentionally trying not to break the game. All the while knowing exactly how to break the game, unless the DM intentionally makes things up to prevent that ("Ohh the villain is a super wizard, or the villain has a magic castle that blocks you")

This much is pretty true!  Rope trick is not a great example though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 24, 2015, 11:56:16 pm

Rope trick is more an example of a spell that does a lot more then its circle would suggest.

It does what a spell 3 circles higher would be justified in doing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 25, 2015, 12:12:34 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 24, 2015, 02:22:03 pm

Remember Rope Trick doesn't "Just end" they can look out the hole... along other things ("Ohh look they are making traps, Fireball... Sorry still in perfect safety!")... honestly I am not even trying to break the system, this is just a single spell. I haven't even got into combinations or some of the other little tricks wizards have.

spells can't cross the interface.

Quote from: Neonivek on August 24, 2015, 02:22:03 pm

Basically I'll put it this way...

The game doesn't attempt to negate Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Clerics, Druids, Bards, Rangers, or monks (Rogues are negated because... well 3.5 doesn't do rogues well)... The only characters 3.5 guns for, where at least half the monsters in existence are geared towards dealing with... are Wizards...

That's not out of order. It's just like you'd expect to encounter lots of anti-hacker countermeasures in a cyberpunk setting; or at least in a well designed one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 25, 2015, 07:18:48 am

I can't remember if this is the right thread or not, but its a simple question anyway. What kind of actions is it to put away a weapon and draw another one for 5e? How many of said actions?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 25, 2015, 07:23:50 am

Free action to draw/stow/(drop as well I would presume) the first time per turn.
Standard action for all instances after that, until your next turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 26, 2015, 05:31:33 am

Dumb DM Decision of the week: Dismissing or Banishing an extraplanar enemy does not award XP, because you didn't kill it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 26, 2015, 05:37:19 am

That's unfortunate Jimmy, I'd definitely award experience for that, as sending an otherworldly creature back from whence it came is clearly dealing with it and therefore gaining experience.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 26, 2015, 08:09:03 am

For the record, Book of Exalted Deeds says that resolving an encounter peacefully should reward as much or more XP.
(It's a little crazy at points, and definitely biased, but that particular point is sound.  If the encounter is truly resolved)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 26, 2015, 04:07:46 pm

Yeah, the whole "equitable exp for solving encounters without murdering everything" exists for a reason, namely giving players tangible incentive to not be murderhobos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 26, 2015, 04:13:56 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on August 26, 2015, 04:07:46 pm

Yeah, the whole "equitable exp for solving encounters without murdering everything" exists for a reason, namely giving players tangible incentive to not be murderhobos.

Well there is a reason mainly that Dungeons and dragons isn't a videogame and you are playing your way with ending exp usually being proportionally much higher if you manage to solve everything peacefully. THAT is the main incentive for not murdering everything.

Personally I don't like to reward PCs for avoiding combat but that is because I treat exp as "Experience" and not as "TOTALLY RAD POINTS YALL!" like everyone here suggested.

But an Exorcism is basically a combat, just non-traditional so I'd give them the exp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 26, 2015, 04:33:02 pm

I think you mean you treat experience like "combat experience", because convincing the final boss to kill himself is totally something that would give you experience experience.

And then, when you no longer treat experience as a generalised sum for all kinds of experience, whether combat or anything else, you run into the problem of why killing goblins makes you better at magicing or thieving. And then you've suddenly ended up with a system that is more "totally rad points yo" gamey than if you just stick to it being a universal experience tally.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 26, 2015, 04:36:20 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "All the other" Experience happens later. They aren't filed under encounter experience.

But lets just say that I have yet to see a "Diplomat" who ONLY "Diplomats" who hasn't received any combat or magical training... ever get to level 10 in dungeons and dragons.

So I think my experience is safely in the experience category.

But sure, say "Hey, we will give you 10,000 gold so you won't eat me" totally is justification for level 1s to earn 5 levels I mean it is a life lesson isn't it?

Though it does mean the strongest creatures in dungeons and dragons are diplomats, accountants, and lawyers.

Besides rewarding PCs equivalent Exp for "avoiding encounters altogether" actually gimps them in the long wrong anyhow. So the whole "But then your punishing the PCs" aspect doesn't fly.

---

If the players are only killing everyone to try to scrape up exp... Obviously they haven't heard that actions have consequences... or aren't roleplaying.

Meaning you either have bad players or a bad DM :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 26, 2015, 06:25:11 pm

(I'm bored and spitballing for fun, no antagonism at all meant)

If I was GMing and the party got 10,000 GP at level 1...  I'd question my GMing choices :P
And if I was satisfied with the answers, I'd definitely share the story.

(Also, because I'm bored, a party of 4 level 1s would need a CR 9 encounter to gain 5 levels)

Though it's also hard to imagine a 10,000 gold bribe resolving an encounter.  More like a plot hook.  "The guard recognizes that you must be the infamous Silver Shadows who robbed the palace.  He doesn't even *consider* taking the money and becoming complicit, and instead runs screaming towards the guardhouse."

Okay okay, CR 9...
"The juvenile blue dragon (with a class level in something) happily accepts your money, then gleefully informs you that it expects the same amount, in a year and one day, or it will decimate the nearby village.  Daily, 1/10 of the people."

"The big evil wizard is uncharacteristically speechless as she stares at the pile of platinum.  'Uh... okay sure, I'll stop terrorizing the town.  I only really wanted recognition, and I guess I got it.  This is enough to set up a proper tower in town, set up a shop out of it, maybe rig some elections.  You're, uh, free to go.'" (I would actually give full XP for this, but it would take some RP to happen.  Like, they'd need to know the wizard's motivations)

"The Vrock looks at the money and grins, then begins cackling wildly.  It is still laughing hours later, while the bloody bag of coins lays discarded beside your cooling corpses."

"The governor asks no questions as he accepts the cash, though he does hand it to his accountant to verify.  'Actually, I've *always* felt like subhumans- er, demihumans, deserve equal protection!  I hereby grant you voting seats on the council, and promise to support your efforts for, hrm, equality and such.'"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 26, 2015, 06:40:13 pm

There are plenty of monsters who are more then willing to be bribed or even fed over having an actual fight. Heck quite a few would rather let you go then have a fight.

At least if you read the monster manual entries and extra editions as closely as I do.

Xorns would be more then willing to avoid a fight for 10,000 gold for example. Goblins don't usually want to fight at all as it is as evil as they are... The same often applies to Kobolds and even Orcs aren't against negotiation.

Most DMs just tend to treat monsters as killing machines, heck even I do way too much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 26, 2015, 07:04:02 pm

I guess because if a creature or band is attacking, they must have a reason.  Presumably they think they have a reasonable chance at victory (even though in almost all cases, their best case scenario is killing a single hero or escaping with their lives).

So the negotiation is theoretically easy for the heroes, since they generally have the position of strength.  A moderate bribe can really help with that.  A dangerous situation is revealed as nigh-suicidal, but they're allowed to leave with their lives and some dignity/food money.

But if the heroes *aren't* an actual threat, a bribe doesn't work.  A nonlawful evil creature will just kill them anyway.  Other bandits will demand everything of interest, leaving the party alive (but perhaps naked and with a free rope).  A lawful evil creature may take advantage of their amazing money making skills (like my dragon example), confident that they aren't a threat.  An evil coward will still step on an ant, a neutral coward will still hunt a rabbit.  A good coward makes a short-lived bandit.

For a bribe to work without being backed by credible threat, the target needs to incapable of lying... or bluffing.  You can bribe Robin Hood (the chaotic good cartoony version) because he was never going to kill you anyway.  You can safely pay a devil for mercy...  but it's probably just after your soul, or future moneys.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on August 26, 2015, 09:48:34 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on August 26, 2015, 06:40:13 pm

There are plenty of monsters who are more then willing to be bribed or even fed over having an actual fight. Heck quite a few would rather let you go then have a fight.

At least if you read the monster manual entries and extra editions as closely as I do.

Xorns would be more then willing to avoid a fight for 10,000 gold for example. Goblins don't usually want to fight at all as it is as evil as they are... The same often applies to Kobolds and even Orcs aren't against negotiation.

Most DMs just tend to treat monsters as killing machines, heck even I do way too much.

They've played too many computer programs and forgotten that "Roleplaying game" wasn't originally a totally idiomatic phrase

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 27, 2015, 12:08:59 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 26, 2015, 04:36:20 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "All the other" Experience happens later. They aren't filed under encounter experience.

But lets just say that I have yet to see a "Diplomat" who ONLY "Diplomats" who hasn't received any combat or magical training... ever get to level 10 in dungeons and dragons.

So I think my experience is safely in the experience category.

But sure, say "Hey, we will give you 10,000 gold so you won't eat me" totally is justification for level 1s to earn 5 levels I mean it is a life lesson isn't it?

Though it does mean the strongest creatures in dungeons and dragons are diplomats, accountants, and lawyers.

Besides rewarding PCs equivalent Exp for "avoiding encounters altogether" actually gimps them in the long wrong anyhow. So the whole "But then your punishing the PCs" aspect doesn't fly.

---

If the players are only killing everyone to try to scrape up exp... Obviously they haven't heard that actions have consequences... or aren't roleplaying.

Meaning you either have bad players or a bad DM :P

As others (including you  :P) have indicated, we don't live in the best of all possible worlds where all tabletop players are consummate actors and all DMs are bards straight out of a feudal court. DMs often get lazy and throw out combat encounters one after the other, because it's simple, straightfoward, and doesn't bore the rollplayers. A lot of players, even ones who enjoy heavy RP, will often approach encounters with a very video-gamey/wargamey attitude where pretty much anything that isn't obviously a conversational partner is a threat to be eliminated. Sometimes you'll even have attempts to weave in RP rolled over by the process of combat -- pause for example.

I was playing a monk in a 3.5 campaign. My basic premise was that the character had been found lost in a foreign forest by an aging, hermetic monk. She'd been impetuous and temperamental throughout her childhood, and her master had died before her training was truly complete, so she set off into the world with the ideals firmly fixed in her head, but not ingrained in her behavior. Lawful Good, you say, with a character who tends to go over the line when things turn violent and is too hasty to resort to violence in the first place? Surely you jest, FD! No. I wanted to play the long game with that character, to demonstrate her growth as a person, both moving closer to that old ideal and also growing into her own personality.

The very first combat, guess what happens? It's bloody and nasty. My character downed the main enemy early, but his minions nearly killed the rest of the party. After a long period of me flubbing my rolls while everyone else either lay unconscious and burning or ran away to heal, we eventually won. I announced that I was going to curb-stomp the downed leader on the raised rim around the altar, with the intent of doing one of the two things: if the roll missed, my character pulled the blow at the last second and pulled back her anger; if it connected, I'd play out mounting regrets and guilt over the few days or weeks in-story, and the next combat would play the character as much more hesitant to commit fully, only attacking nonlethally and such.

Instead, guess what happened? First thing said? I don't remember the exact words, but it was something like, "You're Lawful Good, your character can't do that." I don't have anything against whoever it was that said it, but it helps illustrate the issue.

--

Back to the main: It's multifaceted. When you deny experience for everything that isn't killing things, players are going to feel pressed to kill more things, even when they ordinarily wouldn't. You don't have to be a powergamer to enjoy the sense of progression and growth -- if you really want to run your political Bioware conversation simulator, I'd suggest not using a system that heavily focuses on combat (or tell people beforehand). When players have more reason to approach things with a kill 'em all attitude, DMs tend to figure that that's what players want, things to kill. RP ends up being discouraged in combat situations because it slows down an already time-consuming process for little apparent reason -- the DM probably didn't design that encounter so that you could talk through it, and you won't gain anything if you do. This whole mentality of rollplay and roleplay as separate and opposing entities has become ingrained in the collective mindset of TTRPGers, and it's thoroughly detrimental.

IMO we should be seeking to do the exact opposite of tearing roleplay and rollplay apart, we should be working to integrate them more fully, to give rewards to players for being good conversationalists, for arranging clever political maneuvers, for fooling people into giving the party what they want, &c., rather than saying "You only get experience and loot if you kill things, and if you try to kill things you're a bad roleplayer." It splits the base, makes it more difficult for parties to agree on things, and leads to frustration when the DM and players aren't on the same wavelength. I'm sorry if I'm reading you wrong, but what this really comes off as to me is "I don't like players not RPing [and I don't recognize that different people enjoy different levels of RP], so I'm going to make it even more of a pain in the ass to RP!"

Sure, the guy who'll go LG Paladin with an asshole DM and play the role to the hilt even though he's missing out on all the rewards and undergoes constant arbitrary attempts to make him fall, that player will enjoy RPing regardless. The guy that made the face Bard and realizes that charming through situations means no exp and no loot? The girl that made the Barbarian who disarms traps by running through them yelling curses when you tell her that you don't get exp because you didn't use Disable Device? The amorphous blob that made the sneaky poisoner who discovers that they don't get any exp for killing a dungeon full of enemies by poisoning their water supply? They're going to be annoyed, and next campaign they're probably going to play a character who's good at killing things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 27, 2015, 12:16:47 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Who said I deny experience? I just don't offer equivalent experience.

Talking to a dragon is 10 times easier then killing it

Now for a videogame or an "Open World" Scenario that is already preset (or a monumentally large dungeon)... You have to give them equivalent EXP or else they will fall behind.

This isn't an issue in a normal game.

Here are "If I took this to its natural conclusion" other ways to earn exp
1) Run away from fights (EXP equivalent to that encounter)
2) Skip floors (EXP for every monster on that floor)
3) Skipping dungeons (EXP for every monster in that dungeon)
4) Agreeing to the evil bosses demands (Gives you exp equivalent of fighting for him).
5) Choosing not to hit someone

---

Anyhow since this isn't a debate thread I've been holding back quite a bit... and will continue to do so. All in all this whole "Equivalent experience for non-experience" is entirely new to me and was only "suggested" in a 3.5 supplemental book and made a rule in Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 27, 2015, 02:26:15 am

You guys need to stop thinking of XP as some set-in-stone constant of the universe. Go with your gut instinct when it's appropriate to award it, and how much. If you feel that fighting is the only "true" way of becoming more experienced and that skillfully wordsmithing your way into the dragon's good books or slinking through a bandit camp to assassinate the head honcho like a ghost is badwrongfun, then award XP accordingly. If you think the converse and that fighting is really pretty much pointless, do it that way.

Actually, here's probably the key point: Award it based on what the action ITSELF was worth, not the alternative, based on what you think.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 27, 2015, 02:34:01 am

I already had players complain that I didn't reward exp for falling into 5-foot-deep pit traps. (they were delay traps in a somewhat easy encounter)

So... I can't just let bygones by bygones at this point :P

I am actually willing to stop playing pathfinder forever over this...

But yes I agree UXLZ, I personally don't think "falling for a trap" is worth anything because the player and character "did nothing"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 27, 2015, 05:37:45 am

... I frequently don't award experience for months at a time.  The I deliver a lump amount based on my measure of their individual performance as characters.  When my current group actually receives the exp. I've been building up for them in a week or two, they're going to be very surprised.

Edit:  Also, you guys are doing a fairly good job of policing yourselves here, but things are getting a little out of hand.  Let's put this particular subject to rest for a while please.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 27, 2015, 05:41:11 am

Did I miss something NFO? When XP should be rewarded seems like a fairly pertinent topic, or was it the 3.5 references?

I like the sound of your way, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 27, 2015, 05:43:50 am

Quote from: UXLZ on August 27, 2015, 05:41:11 am

Did I miss something NFO? When XP should be rewarded seems like a fairly pertinent topic, or was it the 3.5 references?

I like the sound of your way, though.

Well this is more an experience topic then a debate topic :P

I think NFO is more soothsaying which is... kind of quite... apt at this point. I certainly don't predict clear skies if we continue this topic at this point.

There are several ways to give exp anyhow and indeed one of them is the end of session, arc, whenever, lump sum. Adjusting for what the players did is also a good way of doing it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 27, 2015, 05:51:55 am

Well, the discussion has been ongoing for some time, and I don't see anything specific here that indicates that a fight is brewing.  However, taking a break from a particular topic gives everyone time to digest what has been said, and they can then approach the topic at a later time with a clear head.

Mostly, I don't think people should get too entrenched in their positions on a subject as vague as experience points.  I've handled it in a ton of different ways over my term as DM and I don't really know that any one method was better than another, I just go with what works at the moment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 27, 2015, 05:55:42 am

I am only upset by the topic because suddenly I am being beholden to one interpretation. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 27, 2015, 06:07:04 am

And I was just discussing and listing examples because I miss actually playing...  :(
Maybe I should find an irc group, I want to do text this time but forum posts seem slow. Idk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 27, 2015, 06:13:04 am

Forum posts are sorta slow, but they at least tend to be a steady enough trickle. ^_^

If you find an IRC group that works at a reasonable hour for GMT+10, tell me about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 27, 2015, 06:30:43 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 27, 2015, 12:16:47 am

If I took this to its natural conclusion

No. That is not it's natural conclusion, that is you being either deliberately obtuse or contrarian and stretching the argument to a point that obviously does not represent what people were saying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 27, 2015, 06:37:16 am

As the person who apparently started this whole thing, I have just one thing to add:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)

So how about that alignment thing?

Here's one for y'all to chew on: Paying real money for re-rolls.

Situation: A gaming group buys food (pizza, snacks, drinks) for their session. Usually everyone takes turns on paying the tab, except there's always a guy in every group that's out of cash or shows up empty-handed. So the DM starts giving out tokens, valid for one re-roll each session to the person who paid for the chow. The one with no money starts complaining it's pay-to-win.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 27, 2015, 06:43:56 am

Lawl, I saw that one on GITP too.

I dislike the combination of real world stuff and in game stuff, if I'm honest, but can see what sparked it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 27, 2015, 02:17:28 pm

Yeah, the basic gist of what I'm saying is that something doesn't have to be a combat encounter to award exp. I don't particularly care what sort of style the DM takes with experience -- I'd be totally okay with NFO's "not awarding exp for months at a time and then doing in one lump based on individual performance" -- I just don't like experience paradigms in which one type of productive behavior is awarded while others are punished.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 27, 2015, 02:58:50 pm

I find it hard to remain invested in a character who can essentially do only one thing, no matter how well he does it...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 27, 2015, 03:27:41 pm

That's... not what I was talking about. I'm saying that if you only reward people for doing one thing, you're going to reinforce behavioral patterns which orient around that thing. If players know that you only give exp for killing things, most of them are going to build characters who are primarily good at killing things.

That said, it's a bit scummy to punish people for playing their characters in a style they like as opposed to a style the DM likes if there wasn't a pre-campaign notice of "this is what sort of gameplay this campaign will orient around."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 27, 2015, 03:28:55 pm

Ohh I was just moving onto another topic.

I just have a hard time being a character who can only do one thing well no matter how well they do it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 27, 2015, 03:31:04 pm

Most characters will be reasonably limited outside their role. Jack of all trades, master of none, and all that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: HFS on August 27, 2015, 03:48:01 pm

>D&D 1st/2nd edition hybrid with a bunch of house rules
>Party of 3 players decides it's a brilliant idea to attack an enemy with a Vorpal weapon in melee
>Roll for initiative
>Enemy goes first
>3 attacks, gets 3 20's
>Sigh

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on August 27, 2015, 05:26:35 pm

To be fair, 3 20s in a row IS a 1/8000 chance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on August 27, 2015, 07:19:12 pm

Yeah, but Murphy's always waiting in the wings for you to get cocky.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on August 28, 2015, 11:00:30 am

Man, I got a 3-20's roll recently. I gave him +2 to attack against undead with the weapon (a shield spike) and an instant kill for it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 28, 2015, 11:14:18 am

Sometimes the triple 20 pops up when you least expect it.

Years ago I was in a group that went up against a lich, this had been built up as a very serious encounter, and we didn't expect it to go very well for us.  The first round our mage dropped a fireball on him, and I hit him with lightning, he was smoldering and pissed.  The top of the next round our fighter let fly with an arrow of greater undead slaying, and even though the likely hood of killing in a single shot was almost nil, he triple 20'd.

Most disappointing lich ever.  We almost didn't smash his phylactery as consolation, but then we went ahead and ended him because vengeful liches are bad news.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on August 28, 2015, 12:07:54 pm

He kept his phylactery nearby? It's like he didn't even want to be a lich (which I guess he wasn't, anymore, once you killed him and smashed his phylactery). Hiding your phylactery somewhere secret and hard to reach is lichdom 101.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 28, 2015, 12:20:33 pm

They're also immune to electricity in 3.5e

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 28, 2015, 12:53:22 pm

Not really nearby, in the same dungeon, but a very different location.  Didn't matter, wizard, cleric, and druid in the party.  It wasn't staying hidden, after all, there were only so many highly reflective magical objects in the place.

Edit: immune to lightning in 3.0 as well.  But druids get screwed for high-damage options at certain points.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 28, 2015, 12:58:17 pm

If I was a lich I'd typically hide it in a thick walled off room.

That would have outright defeated detect magic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 28, 2015, 01:07:49 pm

We'd already cleared the dungeon, as in nothing was left capable of even slowing us down.  We killed a warband of two hundred orcs on our way out (tip, never, ever give your players a confined space that the enemy must move through to fight from underground, unless they need the advantage) three fireballs, two ice storms, two flaming spheres, and everything except the chief was dead.

I don't often abuse the hell out of a situation, but when I do I leave DMs crying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on August 28, 2015, 01:30:00 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on August 28, 2015, 12:07:54 pm

He kept his phylactery nearby? It's like he didn't even want to be a lich (which I guess he wasn't, anymore, once you killed him and smashed his phylactery). Hiding your phylactery somewhere secret and hard to reach is lichdom 101.

I once designed a Lich that didn't even realize that he had become a Lich, more that a Necromicon knockoff tricked him into making himself a Lich and it itself was his Phylactery, BUT cause the book was alive it kinda had the ability to Teleport itself and so forth. Was planning on using him as a reoccurring villain that allowed me to drag the players to a new area. BUT that game ended after people left for Uni...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 28, 2015, 11:02:37 pm

Also Liches, being undead, are immune to critical hits in 3.5e as well.

In our Pathfinder campaign, one of our party members ended combat Confused after we'd killed the enemy. Rather than risk him continuing to hurt himself, our monk decided to throw something at him to knock him out. Checking their character sheet, it appeared they only had a bar of soap from their starting equipment that had been long forgotten. Well, roll to hit, says the DM. Natural 20. Roll to confirm. Natural 20. Roll again just for giggles. Natural 20. Boom, no save, out like a light.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 29, 2015, 01:35:47 am

Arrow of greater undead slaying.  The rolls were to determine whether or not it could overcome the lich's spell resistance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 03, 2015, 05:39:47 pm

Can't remember any fights I've had against any liches. Closest I can remember are two Grave-Knight fights. They are a lot more convenient to kill permanently, since they literally wear their phylactery equivalent. I heard a story about a lich that chose a coin as his phylactery, permanency'd a bunch of non-detection magic on it, then left it in the middle of a street in a busy city. Not even the lich would know where it would be.

Though there is a new type of lich introduced in a recent Pathfinder bestiary called a Psychic Lich. Their phylactery is a book/scroll/readable-thing that contains the lich's complete life history. They also create an "astral legend' in the Astral Realm, which is another phylactery of sorts. You need to use the book to destroy the legend.

The book can recreate the legend if the legend is wiped. The legend can reform the book if the book is destroyed. And if you read the book or otherwise watch the lich's legends, then the lich will reform at only one-tenth the amount of time it currently has left before it would form normally.

The bestiary also introduced three new playable races, but only one seems to be meant for players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: UXLZ on September 03, 2015, 08:38:53 pm

Love the cunning of the first lich. I'll have to remember that. Don't they feed souls to their Phylactery, though?

Quote from: Flyme

The bestiary also introduced three new playable races, but only one seems to be meant for players.

That's a bit of a weird sentence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 03, 2015, 09:15:43 pm

The races are all defined by their class levels, as they do not have racial Hit-Dice, which technically makes them a playable race. One is literally an altered Samsaran, and is roughly about the same power level, I think. The other two seem a bit too strong to be allowed for players, but are instead meant for DMs to use.

A Duergar Tyrant, which is like a Drow Noble, in that it has immediate access to very powerful abilities, including several mid-game abilities available to a Telekinetic Kineticist, scaling Spell Resistance, and better attribute bonuses than their non-empowered version.

The other is a new race called Munavri. They have innate Spell Resistance, though not as strong as the Duergar Tyrant's or the Drow Noble's. They have an amazing stat spread, with +4 Dex, and +2 to Con, Wis, Int, and Cha, but with a -2 to Strength. They do have light blindness though. Not as powerful as some of the other races, but still more powerful than most.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 03, 2015, 10:15:57 pm

Eh. Light Blindness is a "drawback" only insofar as that it can't be totally mitigated for 10gp like Light Sensitivity can. Instead you have to drop 3500gp on a Raptor's Mask or (if you're a sucker) burn a feat.

I mean, assuming your DM allows conversion of items that weren't snagged by Paizo already.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on September 03, 2015, 11:47:39 pm

A random thought I want to drop here so I can get it out of my skull: So, has anyone ever had a good experience with cults? Or I should say enjoyable, or maybe satisfying. Because, in my group, cults have always been a drag, and I think I figured out why.

They always seem to be devoid of humanity (or whatever race they are in question) in a way that's not really addressed. Always loyal to the death, with no really good explanation of why they're like that. They don't have goals other than serving their cult and are highly resistant to persuasion or interrogation. Rarely do they even have goals that don't perfectly align with the rest of their order.

The way I see to fix that is to give them more human motivations and causes for why they do what they do, or else go the opposite direction and emphasize their inhumanity in some way, like having them hiding out in a village, and you don't know who is a cultist and who is innocent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on September 04, 2015, 12:48:14 am

Quote from: Kadzar on September 03, 2015, 11:47:39 pm

or else go the opposite direction and emphasize their inhumanity in some way, like having them hiding out in a village, and you don't know who is a cultist and who is innocent.

Like ISIS sympathizers

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 03, 2015, 05:39:47 pm

there is a new type of lich introduced in a recent Pathfinder bestiary called a Psychic Lich. Their phylactery is a book/scroll/readable-thing that contains the lich's complete life history.

Like Lord Voldemort?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 04, 2015, 06:54:02 am

I've used religious motives a couple of times, but generally I find cults to be a little... Excessive.  They make for okay faceless badguys, but generally just suck as real villains, their goals are just too limited and their motivations too bland for solid use.  Just my two cents.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 04, 2015, 07:09:48 am

They're like any other Opfor, only as interesting as the effort that went into them. It's just that you have to be more creative with their motivation and methods. It's actually pretty easy to turn even a relatively straightforward LE-styled cult into a prolonged, intricate plot. Instead of having them doing Nebulous Evil Things^TM, have them filling roles that their opposites aren't, providing stability and safety in dangerous areas (albeit with a rather higher rate of corpse output from their methods), running regular rites that don't orient around unwilling sentient sacrifices, perhaps dipping a bit into necroindustry, &c. Things that make them a legitimate part of their community, generating genuine non-cultist support.

Or make them cultists of a non-Evil deity, or a cult which worships a non-divine figure. Hell, just about anything except the stereotypical evil cultists trying to summon a demon or break an old bit of magic, or fucking whatever, the same old batch of robed fuckers.

But yes, if it's a gaggle of faceless hooded Evil Cultists^TM operating out of the local conveniently abandoned building trying to do Something Nasty and Wrong, yawn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on September 04, 2015, 07:34:02 pm

@Flying Dice: Exactly. I've seen too many adventures treating cultists as basically zombies with human (or whatever race) stats instead of people. There never seems to be a logical explanation of why anyone would join these cults in the first place. Maybe they might be misguided about the true nature of their object of worship, or, as you proposed, maybe they actually are beneficial to their worshipers, though they could still have an unsavory side to them.

And even if you do have basically brainwashed minions for cultists, you can still add some interest to them. For instance, one of the cultists could turn out to be the parent of a cute kid from the village, so you'll either have to find a way to save them from the influence of the cult or live with the fact that you had to kill that kid's mother or father (don't harp on the players about how They Did a Bad Thing in this case, but, rather, have the kid show up occasionally as a subtle reminder of what went down).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 04, 2015, 09:55:57 pm

In my 3.5e game, I used the Geas/Quest spell to explain the cultist's minion's motivation. The cult is led by a high level cleric or wizard capable of casting the spell, and he Diplomancy's his minions into accepting the quest to (insert macguffin here). If the cultists don't follow their quest, they take 3d6 damage every day, essentially meaning they either do what they're told or they die.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 04:25:36 am

From what I can tell from one adventure path I read...

For the most part they are run by a leader who is getting direct supernatural assistance from the deity to fulfill things they want to do on earth right now... And they attract basically psychopaths and basically stupid people who they basically have to herd into doing something useful... but usually they mess up. The end result of their following will always be their own destruction but the leader either
a) believes they aren't being duped
or
b) wishes to betray the deity fueling them (It is kind of something unique to evil deities in that... Their follows can fully want to usurp them)

So cults are basically ruled by someone charismatic and powerful who is receiving power, or wishes to receive power, in some way.

Totally insane cults can occur but they don't have the mindsets required for anything far spanning, but they do exist.

But the general idea is that cults are for the power hungry, mad, psychotic, or sheep... but they always offer something material in the here and now or a promise that will be fulfilled at a sooner date. The more mad cultists just believe in the evil teachings but those are not the leaders. The reason why cults don't have sheep leaders is because they need to add strategy and reservation to their cult, they are the one who stop the cult from doing random killings. A Cult with a Sheep leader generally speaking won't last long.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2015, 05:06:21 am

To borrow a video game example, the cult of Skaen from Pillars of Eternity makes a lot of sense - the idea is, the worshipers of Skaen are abused servants, oppressed peasants and other such people who tend to get trod upon by their masters. So they all congregate and hatch elaborate, yet brutal plots to destroy them, guided by priests of Skaen motivating them to cruelty and revenge against those they deem to have committed crimes against decency.

Now, slaves seeking freedom from oppressors you'd put squarely into the Good category of things, the kind of stuff that a conscientious hero ought to be helping with. However, Skaenites in their powerless nature get drawn into an echo chamber for their revenge fantasies, the blood rituals they view as necessary to attain the necessary power to strike back at their enemies (and, it has to be said, are often conducted with willing, incredibly vengeful volunteers from within the cult) invariably change them for the worse, and their plots often bring a lot of innocents into the crossfire. And their god himself is just about the nastiest piece of work imaginable, just as you'd expect from a god of revenge plots. But being nasty pieces of work to spite their masters is what the abused servants want, seeing no hope in a good life for themselves (or in some cases hoping to bring about the downfall of a tyrant for the sake of their descendants).

Also, taking inspiration from real-life evil cults might be a good idea - for instance, they provide a sense of community and acceptance for the ostracized, grant power to the powerless, provide an alternative to a stifling prevailing ideology or perhaps the alternative in the region is simply worse (or is perceived as such).

Finally, you can also take the internet for inspiration - MRAs, gang stalking communities, certain kinds of subreddits, Stormfront, the deep web, all of these give an interesting perspective into what the inside of an evil cult might actually be like with their twisted little microcosms of disturbingly like-minded individuals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 05:22:39 am

The only hard part is that dnd deities for the most part are irredeemably evil... cartoonishly evil. It is IMO the worst and weakest part of the dungeons and dragons pantheons.

They want to do evil, they will do evil, and it doesn't matter who you are they will do evil to you. They have no altruism, no gregarious nature, any reward they give is only so you may do another task... and they REALLY don't hide this fact.

While I am sure Skaen offered some genuine rewards.

The closest to any sort of freedom from cartoonishly evil are the devils who at LEAST are like evil businessmen. In that sure, they want to enslave all beings and subject them to torture for the rest of all time... But if you work hard and have a evil attitude you can be promoted and maybe some day you will have the corner office in hell.

Which is... another form of cartoonish villainy.

I mean sure... Lovecraft had a lot of cults surrounding the great old ones and outer gods... But those gods were multifaceted, offered rewards, offered thanks, and a lot of the time they directly drive their followers insane in order to make them follow them. HECK Yog-Slothoth is also a wizard deity of magic secretly. The only exception was Azathoth but he never EVER answers the prayers of his followers and even the other Outer Gods and Great Old Ones outright sabotage him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 05, 2015, 05:28:31 am

...and pantheons are also one of the easier things to DIY.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 05:32:44 am

Quote from: Flying Dice on September 05, 2015, 05:28:31 am

...and pantheons are also one of the easier things to DIY.

To admit all you have to really do is make the evil deities more willing to make deals.

Orcus is a demon god who offers immortality and untold necromantic power. Just that is lich ritual is intentionally flawed to twist people who undergo it into becoming evil over time or under his outright control.

Don't start off a cult to Orthus as something big... Just perhaps a small enclave of mortality fearing individuals, who are empowered by their dark pact with Orcus. Growing slowly more cruel as they cunning plan in advance building power. They know that most people cannot be swayed by the undead, so what they need is a front a popular one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 05, 2015, 06:52:18 am

My argument about cults is based on the fact that cult leadership and followers tend very strongly towards zealots.  Zealots are miserable characters, they have no real independent motivation, are incapable of reason, and will do anything to further their causes.  So generally a cult makes for a waste-of-time level group of badguys.  I can and do create much more meaningful and effective antagonists without ever pulling the 'evil cult up to mysterious shit' card.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2015, 07:45:09 am

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 05:22:39 am

The only hard part is that dnd deities for the most part are irredeemably evil... cartoonishly evil. It is IMO the worst and weakest part of the dungeons and dragons pantheons.

They want to do evil, they will do evil, and it doesn't matter who you are they will do evil to you. They have no altruism, no gregarious nature, any reward they give is only so you may do another task... and they REALLY don't hide this fact.

You do realize that just because you can unimaginatively apply a god doesn't mean you absolutely must unimaginatively apply a god? That you don't need to adhere to a very narrow interpretation of what a god is, because people as a rule generally don't?

Gods are people, too, and are at least as capable at logical reasoning as a human being, if not more so, and you apply a god just as you would a paladin. A paladin doesn't have to be the absolute epitome of goodness every moment of her life, since a paladin is a person. D&D gods especially are not alien beings from beyond time and space, generally speaking - they're people, just like in many polytheistic mythologies. Many of them were even originally people, not batshit alien paragons of a small set of ideas. And even if they are, you can have the cult project human traits onto their god that don't even have to be there, and the sorts of creative reinterpretations that would characterize an insular sect of individuals developing ideas in whatever enclosed space they occupy.

Besides, it doesn't say anywhere that you can't have an evil cult devoted to a good god. Or a good cult devoted to an evil god - imagine, say, a small chapter of Talona's cultists performing the equivalent of vaccination on the populace and granting the local lord access to some terrifying biological weapons to siege castles with in exchange for permission to openly operate in his villages.

Furthermore, cults ought to go perfectly hand in hand with rebellions - the clergy are great lovers of the status quo, and so a cult would naturally rise up with a rebellion to replace them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on September 05, 2015, 10:23:12 am

What if you had a cult as a red-herring. Like, maybe there's a cult to Vecna in the region, but they're not behind the disappearances or the famine or the monsters or whatever, all they're doing is blackmailing a couple of people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 05, 2015, 11:19:26 am

They might even have useful information about the plague, sounds like something they'd study and ask Vecna about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 12:21:07 pm

Well no Harry Baldman they outright state what I said "to be the case"

At least in all the material I read. The exceptions is that their direct followers tend to like hellish torture and pain forever... even if the god eventually destroys them at a whim and pretty much enslaves them.

Tiamat is the only evil god I've heard of who actually seems to look out for its followers. If you are a dragon Tiamat isn't a bad god to worship.

Quote

Besides, it doesn't say anywhere that you can't have an evil cult devoted to a good god. Or a good cult devoted to an evil god

In Eberron 100% agreed. Any of the other settings? Ohh my no. Ignoring that "Hey why don't we have any clerics?" would be an overt issue, good and evil gods tend to vengefully lash out in those situations.

You pull that crud in forgotten realms or greyhawk and your gonna get yourself cursed or destroyed.

The exception is Helm of course... because even Helm doesn't like Helm and would prefer they all die.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 05, 2015, 12:24:20 pm

Then say that gods don't automatically obliterate anyone who tries to worship them with a different alignment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 12:25:47 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on September 05, 2015, 12:24:20 pm

Then say that gods don't automatically obliterate anyone who tries to worship them with a different alignment.

Well they don't, any sort of maligned cult of a deity would have to either be somewhere the gods don't tamper with (say... the Far realms where this sort of crud would be expected), or would have to be rather recent.

Or once again it could be a temple of Helm :P

I mean the gods turn you into a monster just for loving the fact that you are beautiful and sexy. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on September 05, 2015, 12:26:20 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 12:21:07 pm

-snip-

....Simply put, if you're GMing, you can dictate otherwise. The sourcebooks are guidelines at most, and if you can't work with something there, you are allowed to alter it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 12:30:20 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on September 05, 2015, 12:26:20 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 12:21:07 pm

-snip-

....Simply put, if you're GMing, you can dictate otherwise. The sourcebooks are guidelines at most, and if you can't work with something there, you are allowed to alter it.

At that point just rewrite the evil gods.

Frankly it is why I liked how Hellboy dealt with the evil deities who relied on worshippers. In that yeah... they were freeken evil and profane... but their followers were vastly rewarded, in fact... The fact that they were so rewarded is part of the theme (In that "Being virtuous is its own reward... because being evil pays")

There is only so many "Teenage Satanist" cults that can exist :P (In that someone sells their soul for some material thing).

Some gods also fool their followers into thinking they offer anything but destruction. The Elemental Evil is a big one. Every single scenario of "What if the elemental evil got free?" usually starts with them destroying their followers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on September 05, 2015, 12:54:45 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 05, 2015, 06:52:18 am

My argument about cults is based on the fact that cult leadership and followers tend very strongly towards zealots.  Zealots are miserable characters, they have no real independent motivation, are incapable of reason, and will do anything to further their causes.  So generally a cult makes for a waste-of-time level group of badguys.  I can and do create much more meaningful and effective antagonists without ever pulling the 'evil cult up to mysterious shit' card.

I'm not saying evil cults are the best thing ever. I'm just positing that they can be done right, even if most people use them wrong. It's like when chefs try to reclaim ingredients or dishes that are poorly regarded. I think I read or heard about one who did something with imitation crab, using actually good imitation crab rather than the kind most people are used to and making a soup or something. The point is, sometimes it's nice to challenge yourself by making something people thing is bad into something good. Like when people make scrap sculptures.

And so, for zealots, you can ask the question of why they are zealots, and maybe is there some way they can be turned from their zealotry, or can you at the very least understand why they turned to zealotry in the first place. Or Maybe they are extremely devoted to their cause, but you have some objective that they can help with, and so you have to work with the cultists to solve your problem. It's not like they need to be main antagonists of an adventure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2015, 01:18:10 pm

The thing is that if you create a fake religion... you typically want zealots.

Though honestly the thing about cults is that often the head of a cult isn't a cleric but a wizard or sorcerer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 06, 2015, 07:06:55 am

Give 'em the Leadership feat. Bam, instant minions!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 09, 2015, 10:28:03 pm

Here is something I tend to mule about which is Charisma.

I often like to liken Charisma by the natural magnetism a person exudes. Yet it isn't an overwhelming one even at high levels.

Since someone who feels like they are at a vacuum going at your psyche isn't someone you can trust inherently. You wouldn't listen to someone who gave you this feeling.

Likewise someone with grace, beauty, and poise but lacks all tact isn't charismatic either, most Elves are basically this... All looks but no social tact.

Finally Charisma also represents a deep personal knowledge and ability to see into yourself. While Wisdom is essentially the opposite, it represents a deep personal knowledge about the surroundings (Intelligence being more memorization and outright logic to Wisdoms more intuition and common sense).

Wisdom is what animals use as intelligence (except in 5e where they can have intelligence scores of non-horrificness). A cunning animal has high wisdom, while a dumb brute would have little. Animals with intelligence of 2 have the ability to learn to a limited fashion and can be cunning as well but in a different way. While a Wolf might follow you until you are weak, a intelligence 2 animal might know to take your weapon away before you even fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on September 10, 2015, 05:56:45 pm

I've got all these ideas for plot arcs and setting details and characters but I'm too ADD to properly DM a game (and don't have enough IRL friends who like D&D anyway)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 10, 2015, 05:57:14 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on September 10, 2015, 05:56:45 pm

I've got all these ideas for plot arcs and setting details and characters but I'm too ADD to properly DM a game (and don't have enough IRL friends who like D&D anyway)

Get someone to DM for you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 13, 2015, 10:25:55 pm

Starting to get very aggravated with my life.  Haven't gamed all month due to stupid things.  I'm a bit worried that the narrative will die.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 14, 2015, 05:45:29 pm

New campaign. DM burned out on the Skulls and Shackles adventure. New winter-themed campaign instead. Missed last session though. There's six of us now, since Problem Player rejoined.

I'm a Brawler, there's a Warpriest of Desna, a Rogue, an Arctic Druid who has a wolf, a multiclassed Guntank Gunslinger/Tower Shield Fighter, and a multiclassed Magus/Boltace Gunslinger.

From where I came in, we were being directed by a guide into town. The townsfolk don't trust outsiders, so we stayed at the guide's house. The Druid's wolf tried to eat the guide's cat.

First day in town, the most of us tried to gather information. Everyone refused to speak to us. No info, no shopping, etc. While we were out trying in vain to speak to the townsfolk, Stibbins the Guntank spent the day building snowmen and making snow angels. Best way I can describe him would be to liken him to a Dwarven Space Marine, continually smoking and only communicating in a variety of grunts. If we were to ever lose him in the snow, we would just have to look for a deep trench and listen for a muffled grumbling noise, as there is no way in hell someone like that would be able to stand on top of anything other than the most frozen or tightly packed snow. For some reason he decided to make a roll to see how well he did at making snow angels. He rolled two 1s. His shield ruined the angel's outline, and he couldn't get back on his feet without help.

At the day's end, we went to the tavern for a drink. After a few cups, we started hearing voices telling us to leave town. Might have been tea enchanted to give off a suggestion spell, or it might have been townsfolk yelling at us from outside. Either way we trashed our table. The barkeep responded by pulling out a crossbow and yelling at us to get out of the bar. Stibbins didn't like this. He stood up, shot the barkeep, and started the encounter. His wife came out shortly after combat started, and demanded he put down the crossbow, and that we leave. Most of us complied. The Magus refused, as he was the only one who didn't fight. Apparently he liked his hallucinogenic tea. So the wife pulled out a scroll of command and forced him to leave. So Stibbins shot her, too. Then we had to talk the Magus down from burning the tavern down. Then we went back to our guide's for the night.

The next morning, there were guards at the door giving our guide shit for harbouring us. So we responded the only way we knew how; murder. We found a note on the guards for the guide to be brought to a nearby tower for punishment, so we went instead. And killed more guards, a guard captain, and a frost troll. Also, Stibbins took potshots at some birds.

And the DM wanted to move away from the pirate campaign because we were too murder-hobo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 14, 2015, 06:16:21 pm

...That's...that is just...I don't even know where to start, so I'm just going to say: What. The. Hell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 14, 2015, 06:17:22 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 14, 2015, 06:16:21 pm

...That's...that is just...I don't even know where to start, so I'm just going to say: What. The. Hell.

Sometimes you just have to make snow angels and murder everyone, and they were all out of snow angels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on September 16, 2015, 12:21:31 am

Quote from: Bohandas on September 10, 2015, 05:56:45 pm

I've got all these ideas for plot arcs and setting details and characters but I'm too ADD to properly DM a game (and don't have enough IRL friends who like D&D anyway)

Anyway, here's a few that you're welcome to steal for your own campaigns:

1.) The heroes arrive in the Avernus (the first layer of the 9 Hells) near the election for the Director of Domestic Affairs (or some si ilar sounding title), who controls the 0.75% of the later's resources not earmarked for military spending. The director is democratically elected, but the only two parties available to choose from are Stalinist communists or hardcore Nazis. And each party's candidate has pledged to purge the other party's supporters as their first official act.


2.) The commandments of Olidammara's religion are all phrases which, in our world, are associated with rap music, such as "Keep your pimp hand strong", "keep it real", and "Smoke weed every day"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 20, 2015, 08:23:02 am

Finally got the game rolling again.  Thief-girl gathered some very useful information on the current situation and managed to make a solid contact in the local crime ring, meanwhile paladin and leader got the next section rolling pretty smoothly (and avoided a pitched battle in the process.)  It's going to be interesting to see what they'll do next, currently the thief wants to split off from the main group to get ahold of a very important sea-chart.  I'd rather the group stay together because the next segment will be pretty involved, but if that's what the party goes with I'll have to make adjustments.

Fun fact about my campaign: the whole world is situated much closer to the elemental planes than is normal, so there are no gods, devils or demons.  Instead the 'deities' of this world are incredibly powerful elementals who have taken interest in what the nearby mortals are up to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on September 21, 2015, 10:40:01 pm

My chaotic evil warlock who's patron is Baphomet just forced another PC into killing themselves. This one was a blind glaive wielder who was head of this elite guard. I have plans to convince her to become my character's apprentice

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 24, 2015, 06:44:31 am

I've got a mental image of said blind glaive wielder spinning their weapon in a badass display of machismo and then promptly decapitating themselves as it slips.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 25, 2015, 10:59:39 am

I've recently made and described a weapon called "Benevolent Barry's Beatstick"

A design made by Barry himself. An ivory handle and an iron rod, topped by a platinum cylinder, encapsulated by a steel cylinder and surrounded by steel nuts.  2d8 blunt damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 25, 2015, 12:01:30 pm

Damage seems a bit high, why not go for 3D4?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 25, 2015, 02:07:01 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 25, 2015, 12:01:30 pm

Damage seems a bit high, why not go for 3D4?

Their used by Benevolent Barry's "Bashful" Bodyguard and Bankguards. It's to deter a chaotic-stupid character from doing anything too stupid.

Also, I'm assuming that I'm addicted to alliterations.

Generous Jenny's General Store
Sultan Sully's Sullen Cemetary
Sam Smith's Smithy
Bearded Bard's Bar
Ambassador Anthracite
Runner Rodney Rodgers
Captain Carl Cuxi

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 25, 2015, 06:28:31 pm

Quote from: tonnot98 on September 25, 2015, 02:07:01 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 25, 2015, 12:01:30 pm

Damage seems a bit high, why not go for 3D4?

Their used by Benevolent Barry's "Bashful" Bodyguard and Bankguards. It's to deter a chaotic-stupid character from doing anything too stupid.

There's nothing in any world that will do that. I'm simply saying that stupid, uh... finds a way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 26, 2015, 01:06:40 am

The saying goes, 'Only death cures stupidity', so at my table player receive one warning that what they are doing is incredibly stupid, then the dice kill them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 26, 2015, 03:55:32 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 26, 2015, 01:06:40 am

The saying goes, 'Only death cures stupidity', so at my table player receive one warning that what they are doing is incredibly stupid, then the dice kill them.

I've ignored DM warnings before thinking they were advice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 26, 2015, 12:56:00 pm

I'm sure, but then the 'cure' happens, and people start paying attention.  I've only actually had to kill three characters like this, maybe I'm lucky, but generally the threat of irrevocable punishment seems to put players in the right mindset.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Ogdibus on September 26, 2015, 03:56:39 pm

Quote from: tonnot98 on September 25, 2015, 02:07:01 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 25, 2015, 12:01:30 pm

Damage seems a bit high, why not go for 3D4?

Their used by Benevolent Barry's "Bashful" Bodyguard and Bankguards. It's to deter a chaotic-stupid character from doing anything too stupid.

Also, I'm assuming that I'm addicted to alliterations.

Generous Jenny's General Store
Sultan Sully's Sullen Cemetary
Sam Smith's Smithy
Bearded Bard's Bar
Ambassador Anthracite
Runner Rodney Rodgers
Captain Carl Cuxi

Don't give them good weapons.  Give them good stats and favorable circumstances.  Signature equipment can have strong symbolic value, even if it doesn't outperform other equipment.  In this case, maybe it indicates the quality of the guards, and serves as a component of a uniform.

If they need to have a superior signature weapon, make it something that has unusual prerequisites in order to be useful.  Make sure it's not something that is tempting to sell, unless you want to make that a plot point, such as having a rival offering a bounty on them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 26, 2015, 04:10:06 pm

The prime rule to remember about designing NPCs, enemies, &c. (and this applies to video games, mods, &c. as well as tabletop) is that gear can be looted while stats, knowledge, and connections can't.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 26, 2015, 12:56:00 pm

I'm sure, but then the 'cure' happens, and people start paying attention.  I've only actually had to kill three characters like this, maybe I'm lucky, but generally the threat of irrevocable punishment seems to put players in the right mindset.

It's probably related to the quality of the DM and the density of the idiot -- I recall playing with one guy who would happily create character after character to do the same stupid things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2015, 04:36:21 pm

Dude I'm like right here

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 26, 2015, 05:15:59 pm

It was a meatspace campaign.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 26, 2015, 08:49:59 pm

What Do You Mean He Wasn't A Magus!?

So I thought that one person was playing a Magus/Boltace and doing the whole ranged/magic combat mix style of play. He did magic, there were spells cast, and he had a familiar.

Except he was a level three Warrior. An NPC with an NPC class. He was a hireling. The fox "familiar" was actually his employer; a Kitsune Sorceress. Related note: Hirelings can be stupid cheap, even at early game play.

The player revealed this because he was annoyed that no-one was asking about why his "character"'s familiar had two tails, or how he was able to shoot a crossbow and cast spells. I never played a Magus, the Hell would I know about how Spell Combat works?

Nothing much else interesting happened in this session. Finished wiping out the tower, get thanked by the townsfolk because the regency was actually incredibly oppressive. Stibbins smashed things. Things included doors and statues and other things we couldn't tear from the walls and call "loot", or was otherwise worthless. To be fair, it is somewhat the fault of the building owner for wanting everything made of ice. Stibbins is also in the process of beginning to build himself a revolver to replace his rusty pistol that he started with, which will be pretty nasty.

This Adventure Path is an interesting one. And we have only just finished the first book. Out of six. Though I already know more than I should about this series of books. It gets ridiculous later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 26, 2015, 10:08:34 pm

I am still sad that I am a completely failure as a GM because I desperately want to still GM but I have absolutely no right to.

I think I am just going to create a play by post game of some sort. It is the only way I think I can reasonably GM without messing everything up down the line.

Yet I still have such a passion to do it. I love every aspect of it, but I always end up crushed by the weight of it all or fall into helpless procrastination.

It is like one of the things I want to do most of all, yet I can never manage to keep it up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 27, 2015, 03:26:32 am

Don't be too hard on yourself Neo, keeping up with the demands of a regular campaign can be extremely tiring for even experienced DMs, hell I'm struggling a bit right now (tho' my group has a bit to do with that, our schedules keep getting screwed up.)

You can't become a good DM until you've gained some experience, it takes years.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on September 27, 2015, 05:41:45 am

to be fair, speaking as a player, you weren't nearly as bad as you tell.

also keep in mind this: you know how players will always miss that plot hook to the excellently crafted quest line, or how they miss all the obvious clues to solve the mystery or all the thousand examples of them not seeing the thing you carefully prepared?
well, it applies to the bad things too. when you think you wrote yourself in a plot corner or made some mistake here or there, chances are players will still be completely oblivious. Just continue as if nothing happened and they will be happy all the same.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 27, 2015, 09:54:50 am

I started DMing for my brother as a solo-campaign earlier this week, just to get into the mix of things. Sadly I won't be able to host anyone else besides one friend that doesn't want to make a character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 27, 2015, 03:25:38 pm

Yeah, Neo, the two I played with you were more or less fine for the time that I was there; the worst thing was that guy that wiped us in the 5e pre-module intro when only three of us showed up to play, and that was incredibly mild as bad times go.

That's why I tend to prefer PbP when meatspace isn't an option, it's too easy for people to forget or "forget" to not come to IRC/Roll20/Maptool session and you lose out on a lot of the personal interaction aspect without reducing the burden on the DM. PbP gives you more time to prepare materials, allows you to pace things and give more thorough descriptions, and gives players more time and space to roleplay and develop their characters.

Plus if you get at least 2-3 people really into the roleplay, you can use them to give yourself more time to work on campaign materials without obviously stalling.  :P

There is, of course, the great downside of not having an integrated dice roller, so you either "get" to roll everything yourself or require the use of InvisibleCastle and either check occasionally or trust your players not to fudge rolls. Or trust them outright to roll with their own dice, but that's not something I'd necessarily recommend. (I also wouldn't trust myself to roll with my own dice, but that's 'cause all I have are shitty probably-flawed Chessex crap, hah.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on September 27, 2015, 03:29:21 pm

I wasn't in any of your games, Neo, but if you start a PbP on the forums I'll probably join.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 27, 2015, 03:30:59 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot to say, PM me as well if you do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 27, 2015, 07:54:15 pm

Something I've been wondering about since I came up with a stupid character idea: How do you do point-buy when the creature-type you are creating doesn't have a certain ability score?

For example, there is a Pathfinder race called a Wyrwood, which is a small-sized construct, and thus does not have a constitution score. Do you just leave the score at 10, and not raise or lower it? Does it automatically go to zero, and give you a massive amount of extra points? I highly doubt it's this second one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 27, 2015, 07:58:50 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 27, 2015, 07:54:15 pm

Something I've been wondering about since I came up with a stupid character idea: How do you do point-buy when the creature-type you are creating doesn't have a certain ability score?

For example, there is a Pathfinder race called a Wyrwood, which is a small-sized construct, and thus does not have a constitution score. Do you just leave the score at 10, and not raise or lower it? Does it automatically go to zero, and give you a massive amount of extra points? I highly doubt it's this second one.

Typically you assume the score was 10.

Since the score was Blank, and not 0.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 28, 2015, 01:31:49 am

I'd agree with Neo there, since the attribute is simply 'missing' you would subtract the number of points needed to make it average (no bonus or penalty) from your pool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on September 28, 2015, 04:48:55 am

Why would a construct not have a CON score?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 28, 2015, 04:53:55 am

Quote from: scriver on September 28, 2015, 04:48:55 am

Why would a construct not have a CON score?

Presumably because they feel no pain and have no biological processes, just like undead. Undead, if I recall correctly, used their CHA for hit points or something like that and always had a d12 for HD when they had class levels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 28, 2015, 06:24:47 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on September 28, 2015, 04:53:55 am

Quote from: scriver on September 28, 2015, 04:48:55 am

Why would a construct not have a CON score?

Presumably because they feel no pain and have no biological processes, just like undead. Undead, if I recall correctly, used their CHA for hit points or something like that and always had a d12 for HD when they had class levels.

It is entirely the biological process lacking aspect.

5e handles the attributes differently (and I kind of like it to an extent)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on September 29, 2015, 10:47:44 pm

So I have a dilemma. My character died in Pathfinder and I'm given the chance for him to return for free, but the rules lawyer told me I'd be half my level upon doing so (I'm level 8 upon death) and storyline wise, I would stay dead.

So I don't know if I should make a new character and roll with that, revive my guy, or have one of my character's seven remaining brothers come in to take his place.

The main problem is the rules lawyer also made it broken as fuck and hard to do anything without breaking the game. How? He's level 8 and has double all my stats (my guy was a ranger) as a summoner who IS NOT a synthesist. He also has a few levels in swashbuckler. My character had to solo fight a guy who was five levels higher with less than half his HP left (backstory reasons) and I pretty much dropped him to almost dead in one attack, and then I got perma-killed by a crit.

Can I get some input?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on September 29, 2015, 10:54:06 pm

Well, the rules lawyer is a douche. So do what you can to spite him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 30, 2015, 12:19:07 am

I don't know what the heck the rule lawyer got that rule from...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on September 30, 2015, 12:34:24 am

Yeah. IIRC you don't lose half your levels, you lose half of a level, reverting to one level lower than ypu were plus half the xp required to get back to your original level

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 30, 2015, 12:35:00 am

Also, why is the rule lawyer making that call, instead of the DM?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 30, 2015, 01:48:06 am

Quote the actual rule to that asshole and tell him that people on the internet don't like him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 30, 2015, 02:00:00 am

Quote from: Flying Dice on September 30, 2015, 01:48:06 am

Quote the actual rule to that asshole and tell him that people on the internet don't like him.

What's his name? Dave?
Dave, you're a dumbass.

(Sorry to all non-dumbass Daves out there.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 30, 2015, 02:09:19 am

Spoiler: thesituation.jpg (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/Haq63oc.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on September 30, 2015, 12:03:14 pm

His name is Dakota.

And I don't know why he said that... The character is awful in my opinion though, as he's the only front line fighter and his HP is lower than it should be for a ranger. Throw in every stat I had at level 8 was 12 except for str and dex, which was 19/18, it wasn't going to end well for this guy...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 30, 2015, 12:47:33 pm

Dakota, you're a dumbass.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 30, 2015, 12:53:31 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on September 29, 2015, 10:47:44 pm

storyline wise, I would stay dead.

"It's such a shame X isn't with us anymore."
"I'm standing right here."

This part is the part that made me go 'what?' the most. So you'd just... stop being relevant to the plot?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on September 30, 2015, 09:54:19 pm

He fulfilled what he wanted to do in life, but at the same time, I really like this guy, despite him sucking really badly.

I have a week or two to prepare, plus it's going to be horror based...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 09:37:19 pm

Huh... so apparently all the issues I've been having conceptually with the Anti-paladin is moot since honestly even the creators of DND have issues with the Anti-paladin.

I still say they are a ridiculous class.

But I like that I am more well versed with the sort of poor idea of making equivalents some of the time. That Good is Evil, Evil is Good, and the only difference is their motivations.

It reminds me of when I wanted a Chaotic Monk, but when I thought of it I obviously was thinking of something that would be drastically different (because obviously... One cannot withdraw from the inner mastery and still even remotely be a monk) rather then just say "Ohh yeah, it is just the monk except chaotic".

While the Anti-Paladin is the opposite of a Paladin in everyway... but somehow still has the same powers and abilities colored black without any of the real features that actually made Paladin special.

So an Anti-Paladin isn't really devout (as is the nature of chaos) but has the benefit of being devout. Doesn't believe in anyone but himself (yet has the power of protection).

Basically the way to become an Anti-Paladin is to become such a monumental ass that a Dark Deity basically hands you the Paladin's powers except against good.

Though I also found out that my initial issue with the Anti-Paladin of "Not really being able to fit in normal society" is kept. They are not allowed to be secretly evil (as befitting the champions of evil)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 09:57:19 pm

... Anti-paladin?  *Googles*
Okay dandwiki has a thing, and it claims it's core (how unusual, since people so commonly post irrelevant homebrew there for existing classes), and it's *almost* identical to the "paladin of tyranny".  Though the aura is different, but whatever, it's dandwiki.

So it's probably another name for the paladin of slaughter, one of the 3 variant paladins in core.

@Neonivek Could you expand on what issues Wizards have with anti-paladins?

Personally I don't mind the paladin variants at all.  A paladin, to me, is just someone who follows a code to excess.  The Lawful evil paladin (the "anti-paladin", as some apparently call it) makes just as much sense as the default lawful good.  The chaotic variants, slaughter and freedom, are a bit more iffy...  But they still work for me.

Because I see paladins as people who dedicate themselves to the four cardinal forces which vie for influence over the material plane.  The opposite of druids, who champion the material plane itself.  It's perfectly possible to be zealously chaotic.
_{just look at libertarians}

As someone who most identified with their druid character, I welcomed the existence of paladins in the world.  And cultists of Asmodeus who were practically anti-paladins.  They opposed the natural order, but they mostly opposed each other (;

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 10:04:45 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 09:37:19 pm

It reminds me of when I wanted a Chaotic Monk, but when I thought of it I obviously was thinking of something that would be drastically different (because obviously... One cannot withdraw from the inner mastery and still even remotely be a monk) rather then just say "Ohh yeah, it is just the monk except chaotic".

Complete Warrior (I think) had a pugilist or brawler class which was basically an alignment-unlocked scummy monk.  Since monks do punch, of course, but primarily they're supposed to be about discipline and purity.

Quote from: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 09:37:19 pm

While the Anti-Paladin is the opposite of a Paladin in everyway... but somehow still has the same powers and abilities colored black without any of the real features that actually made Paladin special.

So an Anti-Paladin isn't really devout (as is the nature of chaos) but has the benefit of being devout. Doesn't believe in anyone but himself (yet has the power of protection).

Oh, you're talking about paladins of slaughter (Chaotic Evil).  Yeah they're... probably the iffiest variant, I agree.  But, he doesn't protect others:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm
Rather he weakens their defenses.  Tear down the walls.  STRIP THE FLESH, SALT THE WOUNDS! /borderlands

Quote from: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 09:37:19 pm

Basically the way to become an Anti-Paladin is to become such a monumental ass that a Dark Deity basically hands you the Paladin's powers except against good.

Personally I feel like paladins in particular should/can draw from the primal alignment forces instead of a god.  Technically clerics can do so, but paladins are even more alignment-centric.

Quote from: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 09:37:19 pm

Though I also found out that my initial issue with the Anti-Paladin of "Not really being able to fit in normal society" is kept. They are not allowed to be secretly evil (as befitting the champions of evil)

Yeaaaah, the codes of the evil paladin variants are pretty awkward to work around.  Even worse than the default LG paladin's.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 01, 2015, 10:13:33 pm

Nope Rolan, anti-paladins are a thing since 3.0 (and kinda before, but not really), they were initially a prestige class, then WotC decided to make them a main class (oh how I hate the class bloat.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 10:18:10 pm

Their original issue with Anti-Paladins is that basically one cannot mirror a Paladin and have it be an equal, as that cheapens the concept of Paladin.

It is kind of easy to see because while yes, Paladins are champions of good... The way they embody virtue is their source of power... and While Evil can be powerful, intensely so, they are not powerful because they are so evil... They are more endless then black.

Paladins are supposed to be unique.

Not that Champions of Evil cannot exist, but that they aren't simply mirrors. (And frankly I agree...)

Yet oddly Adnd printed probably the best written Anti-Paladin of all the editions... Simply because while it is a flip of a Paladin, they put a LOT more work into it then even Pathfinder did with its total nonsense.

Heck it is why Clerics bug me because Clerics are so custom tailored to good deities that it makes me wish there was an evil Cultist class.

---

Quote

Yeaaaah, the codes of the evil paladin variants are pretty awkward to work around.  Even worse than the default LG paladin's.

Honestly I don't think the Lawful Good Paladin is that bad, especially if you understand the setting. Paladins are not the people you have huddling in cities trying to route out mildishly evil people. They are in the front lines.

Yet many a time they kind of bordered on NPC. Since having a party that can have a Paladin is frankly not that hard, but it does limit what the party can do and you usually have one person who wants to play a neutral Rogue.

Don't get me wrong it can be tough to play a Paladin, but the more I read the more that is the point. A Paladin isn't an easy class to be. It isn't easy to be the shining beacon of law and goodness. They are the people who have the courage to stand up and say that they won't compromise.

Heck I don't even like "Freedom Paladins" or other Paladins. Paladins are literally just fighting Clerics now.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 01, 2015, 10:13:33 pm

Nope Rolan, anti-paladins are a thing since 3.0 (and kinda before, but not really), they were initially a prestige class, then WotC decided to make them a main class (oh how I hate the class bloat.)

Since Adnd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 10:21:22 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 01, 2015, 10:13:33 pm

Nope Rolan, anti-paladins are a thing since 3.0 (and kinda before, but not really), they were initially a prestige class, then WotC decided to make them a main class (oh how I hate the class bloat.)

I don't doubt the 3.0 thing, but they aren't in the openSRD except as the (slightly different) Paladin of Slaughter.
Unless they were republished in a 3.5 book, I'd say they were supplanted by the 3 variant paladin classes which are in the 3.5 openSRD.  Which I assume are in the 3.5 Players Handbook, but I really don't know...

Of course a lot of 3.0 content can be used in 3.5 (took me forever to realize that the Book of Vile Darkness was 3.0.  And maybe the BoExaltedDeeds, but maybe not?? whatever).  It ought to be discouraged when there is a close 3.5 equivalent, though, to be considered an update.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 01, 2015, 10:26:50 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 10:21:22 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 01, 2015, 10:13:33 pm

Nope Rolan, anti-paladins are a thing since 3.0 (and kinda before, but not really), they were initially a prestige class, then WotC decided to make them a main class (oh how I hate the class bloat.)

I don't doubt the 3.0 thing, but they aren't in the openSRD except as the (slightly different) Paladin of Slaughter.
Unless they were republished in a 3.5 book, I'd say they were supplanted by the 3 variant paladin classes which are in the 3.5 openSRD.  Which I assume are in the 3.5 Players Handbook, but I really don't know...

Of course a lot of 3.0 content can be used in 3.5 (took me forever to realize that the Book of Vile Darkness was 3.0.  And maybe the BoExaltedDeeds, but maybe not?? whatever).  It ought to be discouraged when there is a close 3.5 equivalent, though, to be considered an update.

I think the Blackguard was traditionally also referred to as an anti-paladin

This may be what is meant

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 01, 2015, 10:33:02 pm

Antipaladins in Pathfinder are a bit odd to look at. Basically a mirrored paladin. Apparently they can even take paladin feats, though there is no explanation as to how they differ from the paladin version.

"I am the very image of chaos, and bow to no rules. Except my antipaladin code. And my deity's code."

Depending on their deity, they may even spend their afterlife in a GOOD plane.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 10:40:09 pm

Fakedit:

Quote from: Bohandas on October 01, 2015, 10:26:50 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 10:21:22 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 01, 2015, 10:13:33 pm

Nope Rolan, anti-paladins are a thing since 3.0 (and kinda before, but not really), they were initially a prestige class, then WotC decided to make them a main class (oh how I hate the class bloat.)

I don't doubt the 3.0 thing, but they aren't in the openSRD except as the (slightly different) Paladin of Slaughter.
Unless they were republished in a 3.5 book, I'd say they were supplanted by the 3 variant paladin classes which are in the 3.5 openSRD.  Which I assume are in the 3.5 Players Handbook, but I really don't know...

Of course a lot of 3.0 content can be used in 3.5 (took me forever to realize that the Book of Vile Darkness was 3.0.  And maybe the BoExaltedDeeds, but maybe not?? whatever).  It ought to be discouraged when there is a close 3.5 equivalent, though, to be considered an update.

I think the Blackguard was traditionally also referred to as an anti-paladin

This may be what is meant

Noooo no no, Blackguard is a specific thing which is ACTUALLY the opposite of a paladin.  Paladin of Slaughter, or "anti-paladin" as it's called, is just a paladin with a different alignment.  A blackguard is one who has forsaken alignment.  Paladins who fall can get bonuses for becoming blackguards, but I think technically anyone can do it.

It's kinda like a druid, but you're not championing the world.  You're just fed up with alignment and basically serve your self.  Some of the interesting characters in our campaign were blackguards.

@Neonivek
That's an interesting perspective, though mine's different.
In the one campaign I've played (it lasted two years though), there was a lot of BoVD and BoED.  Both good and evil people got blessings from the primal forces of Good and Evil.  But, honestly?  Evil people got better boons.  The corrupt spells of BoVD were just better.

Evil was a temptation because it offered, upfront, significant power increase.  Not to mention that the lord-devils, Asmodeus in particular, were offering tantalizing deals of their own.

Good was something we (well, SOME of us) followed at first for its own sake.  In a way, I followed it because only a good character would truly care about deposing the evil empire and the devilcultist city.

It was rough since the other players went arcane-neutral or crazy-evil and were either sympathetic to the evil lich empire, or omnicidal respectively...

But I guess my point is that good is most meaningful when it *isn't* a mirror to evil.  When evil offers blatantly superior powers, but you refuse, because god DAMMIT it's the right thing to do.  If anything, the reward you get should be the goodwill and support of the downtrodden.

Dunno if I mentioned this, but the campaign crumpled a couple sessions after I left.  Possibly because a greedy cannibal ogre mercenary and an insane klepto mage didn't have much reason to actually fix shit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on October 01, 2015, 10:50:57 pm

I see anti-paladins as paladins who are oathbreakers but end up somehow (since in 5e, paladins gain their power from their devotion, not from the god themselves) still having a spark of a paladin. Oathbreaker paladins are pretty much the same deal in 5e, but since smiting/detecting evil/good has been changed to celestials/fiends, it makes sense that the oathbreaker paladin gives his power bonuses to fiends and undead.

I'm rolling with an oathbreaker paladin in 5e who's a revenant (monster manual race from 4e) that is an oathbreaker paladin. Their spells are the same, but they have domain spells that reflect more evil aligned spells (hellish rebuke, inflict wounds, etc.) and thier channel divinity involves them frightening foes or dominating undead (which is fantastic actually).

They're designed to be paladins who break their oath, but I roll them like blackguards even though 5e's vengeance paladins are like that.

What I see them as are scions and champions of their vices (as 4e literally runs them as, and blackguards to me are essentially anti-paladins). They aren't champions of evil, but they're champions of mortality and vices, like the normal paladin isn't a champion of good but more of a champion of the gods and faith.

Since I roll with paladins almost all the time (or blackguards, whichever fits) I know a bit about each. And the fact that, once again, thier power comes from their zealous nature and their devotion to a cause (not always a diety) is what makes them a paladin or anti-paladin.

I remember that I had a paladin who actually was customized to actually smite chaos since he was allowing paladins to be of any alignment, which was hilarious (we smote the major opposite, neutrality being ignored) and his cause was justice by any means, but justice as he saw fit (eye for an eye, etc.).

Hope this throws some insight from my prospective in

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 10:55:49 pm

Quote

, like the normal paladin isn't a champion of good but more of a champion of the gods and faith.

Well that is more the case now. Originally they were champions of good and law and their devotion to their god coincided with that. If their god turned evil a Paladin wouldn't turn evil just to keep worshipping him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 01, 2015, 11:02:18 pm

Yah, previous editions treated the Paladin as being beholden to the ideals of good and law, hence the paladin's code, generally speaking they aren't supposed to be directly aligned with the gods at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 11:06:46 pm

3.5 didn't though.  The variant versions, including chaotic ones, are core.

A paladin who breaks their oath should become a blackguard or other class, not a paladin of an opposing alignment.  They've failed in their commitment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 01, 2015, 11:45:50 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 11:06:46 pm

3.5 didn't though.  The variant versions, including chaotic ones, are core.

A paladin who breaks their oath should become a blackguard or other class, not a paladin of an opposing alignment.  They've failed in their commitment.

That is quite true. Though I assume you mean break their oath and go evil.

I kind of like Blackguards because in many ways they are kind of the Champions of Lost Faith. They were good but found it so utterly hopeless that they want to crush it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 02, 2015, 01:34:08 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 10:40:09 pm

Fakedit:

Quote from: Bohandas on October 01, 2015, 10:26:50 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 01, 2015, 10:21:22 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 01, 2015, 10:13:33 pm

Nope Rolan, anti-paladins are a thing since 3.0 (and kinda before, but not really), they were initially a prestige class, then WotC decided to make them a main class (oh how I hate the class bloat.)

I don't doubt the 3.0 thing, but they aren't in the openSRD except as the (slightly different) Paladin of Slaughter.
Unless they were republished in a 3.5 book, I'd say they were supplanted by the 3 variant paladin classes which are in the 3.5 openSRD.  Which I assume are in the 3.5 Players Handbook, but I really don't know...

Of course a lot of 3.0 content can be used in 3.5 (took me forever to realize that the Book of Vile Darkness was 3.0.  And maybe the BoExaltedDeeds, but maybe not?? whatever).  It ought to be discouraged when there is a close 3.5 equivalent, though, to be considered an update.

I think the Blackguard was traditionally also referred to as an anti-paladin

This may be what is meant

Noooo no no, Blackguard is a specific thing which is ACTUALLY the opposite of a paladin.  Paladin of Slaughter, or "anti-paladin" as it's called, is just a paladin with a different alignment.  A blackguard is one who has forsaken alignment.  Paladins who fall can get bonuses for becoming blackguards, but I think technically anyone can do it.

It's kinda like a druid, but you're not championing the world.  You're just fed up with alignment and basically serve your self.  Some of the interesting characters in our campaign were blackguards.

You're thinking of the Greyguard from Heroes of Horror

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 02, 2015, 01:51:55 am

Ehh...  Grey guards are bent but not broken.  They still fight for the same ideals, they just take a darker road to do so.  For one thing, the lore says that their organizations secretly condone their actions.  They're also (as far as I recall) still bound by much of their former code, but it relaxes as they advance as grey guards and their organization trusts them more.

That's different from the absolute disillusionment which drives a paladin, to abandon all codes and principles and become a blackguard.  A blackguard is a broken person, driven to evil by spite and the pain of disillusionment.  (Even if they were already evil)

Heh...  Incursion (dnd 3.5 roguelike) has a god whose followers think they're lawful good, but the god is actually one of tyranny.  I'm not even sure if the god knows he's evil.  Thanks to dnd cosmology, these followers get twisted towards evil over time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 04, 2015, 02:58:34 am

This weeks' session was pretty weak.  Party leader shorted out his brain and couldn't concentrate, under other circumstances I could work around that, but he's the commanding officer and the primary vessel of the prophecy, so he needs to be active.  Thief girl decided to take up an offer for some 'playtime' from a female pirate captain who happens to be a fairly major player in the upcoming 'Ring Sea' arc, so at the very least the party should have less trouble assembling a crew for their fairly soon (in about three months game time) to be built transport/combat ship.

Fun fact about my campaign no. 2: Dragons on this world have been affected by the world's proximity to the elemental planes, and have taken on attribute more closely associated with those planes, so normal chromatic and metallic dragons don't exist here.  Instead dragons are born with an elemental affinity and their appearance and abilities are based on those affinities.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on October 04, 2015, 11:18:42 am

So Today I found out Aasimar can be born in human families, and it now makes sense for my character's brother to be so distant to everyone else in his family because he knows he doesn't belong and isn't one of them.

He's a kineticist, so things are going to be hilarious with him rolling about and beating the shit out of people at a distance with his kinetic blasts

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulufaic on October 04, 2015, 01:04:19 pm

Me and my friends just played the most bootlegginist homebrew game yesterday(or I guess this morning)

Basically, the player characters were, in order of most useful to least: an Asshole, a Loser(me), Gay, and a rich douchenozzle.  The Loser was a wimpy magey type, with a basic fire, lighting, and ice spell.  The douchenozzle was a rich, roguey type that could throw knives and pickpocket.  He also had a horse and like a hundred gold.  The Gay was... uhh... gay.  He had a dildo as a weapon and was kinda magey but had no spells.  The asshole was super swole, and could do SHITTONS of damage.  However, he was cursed in that he automatically does an intimidate check everytime he talked with someone.  Also, if he touched something, there was a 1 in 6 chance that it would EXPLODE.  Anyway, the plot was as follows: There were 2 gods, Young G and S.G.  Young G wanted us to spread his word in a tiny podunk town ruled by S.G. and teleported us all there.  First thing that happens is that some guy drags a wench into a temple for a sermon and after a while we follow him in.  There were some wenches, a quite dapper man, the bad guy with his personal wench, and the minister doing the sermon.  Douchenozzle throws a coin at the minister and everyone thinks he's a pretentious dick.  Asshole accidentally scares everyone but the bad guy and the minister with an intimidation roll.  Bad guy and minister give no fucks.

S.G. is getting irritated that we're interrupting his sermon, but I(loser) decide that we need to get their attention so I shoot lighting up into the air.  APPARENTLY S.G. got pissed and blew us out of the temple with a gust of wind.  We couldn't get in, so we go around the back and Asshole punches the SHIT out of the wall and it explodes.  We find a locked door.  Repeat previous action.  The exploding door knocks out the minister and the bad guy's wench, and S.G. gets PISSED.  Bad guy turns into a giant monster and we start combat.  Gay decides to fuck the unconcious minister(to death I might add), while me and Asshole fight the monster.  Monster dies and we much around the town a bit and Gay gets a spell to open and close doors.  We meet up with the dapper guy and he wants to join the party, while the DM none too subtly hints that we were supposed to use him to get through the locked door, and then Asshole decides to shake his hand.  Cue explosion.

We then head to the beach, where Douchenozzle and Asshole scare off a bunch of kids and one of them walks on an invisible thing in the water.  I freeze him in place and everyone except douchey goes over to it.  Walk down a few invisible staircases and come to a ghost door and ghost wall.  I walk through it, get hit and freeze it open.  Gay hits the wall with a dildo and does nothing.  Asshole explodes door and wall after a few tries.  Douchenozzle kills a random kid to see if his ghost appears(it does), and then it was like 4am and we were just like EEEEEEUUUUUUGH.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 05, 2015, 09:53:13 pm

Gemariah Stoneshaper had some... off days.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/09/05/mazeltov-human-wizard

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 05, 2015, 10:16:09 pm

Something odd I've noticed while looking through some of the racial-based Pathfinder Splatbooks, as well as the bestiaries.

Creature typings and subtypings have their abilities split in two groups: Features and Traits. Features require racial hit-dice in order for a creature to benefit from them. Traits are universal qualities. Both are subject to change on a creature-by-creature basis.

For some reason, armour and weapon proficiencies are a trait, and not a feature. Most only get simple weapon proficiency, so it doesn't matter for most races, as almost all classes give simple-weapon proficiencies anyways. However, the outsider subtype has full martial proficiency. There are more than a few playable outsider races.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 11, 2015, 05:53:42 pm

Game got pretty heavily derailed last night, but on the plus side Meme Zod, the perfect foil to Superman, was created so I guess that's okay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on October 11, 2015, 06:01:47 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/pr0FTp1.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: tonnot98 on October 13, 2015, 10:48:52 am

I did a thing (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAAahUKEwinkZTp5b_IAhXLooAKHZIwDqM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FDnDGreentext%2Fcomments%2F3nri9v%2Fwhat_do_kobolds_taste_like%2F%3Fref%3Dreadnext_4&usg=AFQjCNE-LFIp9JgPxQs46YJKf28g2Zo9iw&sig2=ajE6IGK479v92RxEm5YLYQ&bvm=bv.104819420,d.eXY) about a week ago.

I am now doing another thing today, hopefully I don't get murdered by my party members.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on October 14, 2015, 06:24:31 am

Yeah, as my character is the leader of our adventuring party, I make sure I enforce the alignment code and specifically exclude certain party members from any activities that are questionable. For example, when we murdered a large number of lawful good dwarven city guards aiding a prison break, I made sure our lawful good cleric and monk were busy at their respective temples. When we were visiting the high temple of a lawful good deity in another town to have a conversation with an angel, I made sure our chaotic evil gnome fighter was given spending money and a list of books to hunt down for his girlfriend in the market that day.

Also, the one thing I do above all else is make my best effort to ensure party loot is split evenly. That way nobody gets sore about being overlooked when we divide up the blood-soaked coins. I've found in the past that being that guy who always tries to steal loot from his other party members is a great way to get yourself labelled as the expendable one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 15, 2015, 04:25:42 am

So right now I'm kicking around a 'just for fun' character idea, specifically, I'm thinking of creating a d20 future/modern mecha pilot who gets trapped (along with his mecha) in the Forgotten Realms.  This idea came up when one of my long- time (13 years now) players suggested a 'meta-plot' for a series of campaigns about destabilizing and eventually breaking the hell out of that setting.

All in all it seems very playable (in spite of d20 future/modern characters being abysmally weak in almost every respect by D&D standards), and would be an interesting lead-in to the above mentioned 'meta-plot' series of campaigns.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 16, 2015, 09:22:14 pm

Ok, in the Eberron campaign setting, it's stated that the Lord of Blades considers itself male (page 190 of the original 3.5e campaign book), but doesn't that run directly counter to it's radically construct-supremacist philosophy?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 17, 2015, 02:01:28 am

It just has a robo-dong.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 17, 2015, 02:18:45 am

Quote from: Bohandas on October 16, 2015, 09:22:14 pm

Ok, in the Eberron campaign setting, it's stated that the Lord of Blades considers itself male (page 190 of the original 3.5e campaign book), but doesn't that run directly counter to it's radically construct-supremacist philosophy?

Ok... and if you were born into slavery and given a name like "Slavey" that everyone called you and that even you call yourself.

If you were suddenly free would you change your name? Maybe... but you can obviously think of a few people who would keep it.

Besides it is less that he considers himself male so much that he considers himself a masculine entity denoting the use of "he"... then literally being a biological male... But which is easier to understand? He considers himself male? Or he considers his persona to be an engendered male one?

It is quite common in fiction for genderless beings to take on engendered personas. The Gems from Steven Universe, Pinatas from Viva Pinata, Smurfs, The Robot Masters from the Megaman series.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 17, 2015, 05:29:56 am

The D&D 5e campaign I'm about to join includes a gay penguin and a human ex-cleric called Hardo Ferkids.

Fuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 17, 2015, 05:32:05 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on October 17, 2015, 05:29:56 am

The D&D 5e campaign I'm about to join includes a gay penguin and a human ex-cleric called Hardo Ferkids.

Fuck.

Dang... Gay Penguin wasn't so bad, just let people play what they want. (Says me the guy who wanted to play a monkey and a Horse Sorcerer before)

But Hardon... RUN!!! RUN FASTER!!!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 18, 2015, 05:37:57 pm

Why are plant creatures (at least in 3e/3.5e) immune to poison? That doesn't make sense to me? Haven't they ever heard of Agent Orange? or Roundup? are these creatures all products of Monsanto?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 18, 2015, 05:57:44 pm

I would imagine most poisons aren't herbicides. Having a poison that congeals the blood won't do much if you don't have blood, etc.

The casualty of being forced to sum all poisons under one effect. Doubtless some supplement somewhere has a poison that is noted to kill plants.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on October 18, 2015, 11:51:43 pm

Big session.

So for starters, I went to my own funeral (and I wasn't late, yay!) and my character's brother joined.

So we head to Skire (which is literally Ireland and Scotland mixed to one island) and we followed the trail of our team's machinesmith (who's an android and the only one made) "father". We end up in a town where my character, who cannot sleep and feels compelled to head downstairs of the inn, meets a dwarf named Visillie (who has a thick Russian accent) and fills me in on details and agrees to help me and my party if we plan to travel into the mountains, after he says it's very dangerous. He also tells me of a half elf who has answers, so I wake up the android and ask him to come with me as I go to explain to him about what I was told.

Unfortunately, so is the companion of that one guy (the one who likes breaking the game) and she follows us, and she has tendencies to go chaotic evil when elves are involved and she refused to listen to me because he controls her (and nothing can make me stop her, so I have a loose trigger following me. Did I mention she hates elves to the point they make her go instantly chaotic evil and we're to talk to a half-elf she just passed by and tried to drain intelligence on? Yeah...)

So we eventually (after that one guy threatens to blow everyone up) a good cop/bad cop scenario, we convince the half-elf to cooperate and he gives us information. We get some rest, and the party goes to this big ass cave that leads to three things:

A very large room lined with brass (a lot of it), a train that is much more advanced than before (detect magic sees it as having some sort of electric magic running on the train and the rails, and there are glass balls that have this magic too that are shining bright lights), and a fuck ton of paper scattered across the room (a detection of magic shows they have some sort of magic on them that looks like the beginnings of a spell being cast, but it's not casting anything).

We hop on the train and we are greeted with a very rapture-esque message recorded into the system. We then see a big ass gate with dead, frozen and slightly melted people Grasping onto it. The magic that we saw earlier was strong here, and the air tasted coppery.

We break the gate and find the town of Highrock and a sign that says "And so the LAMBS were lead to slaughter", and the sign directs us to LAMBS.

We search the town and my character finds Visillie again and flies up to him. Since no one flies with me, they think I'm crazy (and that one guy won't stop complaining at this time about how stupid we are as a party, plus how I'm crazy and I shouldn't be seeing ghosts (as he thinks it to be) because of his cohort). He shows me a room where I'm given a vision of a halfling getting a bullet to the head as he's blamed for something. I find a diary explaining about LAMBS (essentially, they were researching on how to regain and surpass knowledge lost from our world's version of Rome/Atlantis (called Arcaia), and they tested the limits in hopes of making magic and machine aid one another).

We then hop aboard a train after looking at the android's creator's house and proceeded to LAMBS, where his father speaks to us from a metal box. He tells us we won't interfere with his research and sends glowing zombies (similar to glowing ones in fallout) and we slaughter them. We then find what was called an Arcane Reactor, which was leaking this blue mist all over. The reactor also radiated more magical power than these artifacts we've been hunting that are so strong, it's almost impossible to NOT notice it (and since these artifacts are said to, when gathered and worn, cause the wearer to ascend into godhood, they're VERY powerful).

We do some shit and get through these chambers, but the party leaves me behind because they don't notice the chamber filling up with the blue mist again. I got lucky and made it back and found another path, leading to an alternate room, where Visillie was waving me down. How he got there, I don't know, but I ended up getting to him by rerouting the mist and he shows me another body who was apparently the head scientist here. He had the code we needed for the train to work again, and Visillie tells me about himself; how he became a ginetic experiment, but escaped before they could kill him or make him a monster. He tells me then, that Orodini, the android's creator, must be killed (I now realized I have my own Victor Reznov at this time).

Meanwhile, the others walk into the bomb testing lab, and they get a vision of a couple of scientists standing at the window they're near (which upon closer inspection, has no glass now) and watch as this bright white light envelops them, as they hear the words echo "I have become death, destroyer of worlds." With detect magic, the mages now realize the aura of the magic they didn't fully know about before is REALLY strong here, and that one guy keeps it to himself about it and bitches about it the entire time and NOT ONCE mentions it until I tell him that he didn't say anything in character. When he does, he metagames the fuck out of it and says its nuclear radiation and will cause us o grow tumours and shit.

We reunite, and because everyone has been being a dick to me, I don't tell them anything and tell them I got the code (not how, not anything). We go deeper and see several visions of a child and a woman walking into various surgery rooms and watch as these scientists talk. The last room shows a soldier talking to two scientists as he says "he killed them both... His wife and his child..." As we hear the words "I've... Got no strings... To hold me down..." And then in reality, we hear the ending: "I've got no strings... On me..." And we fight a being made ENTIRELY out of magic. My kineticist is useless here since all of his abilities deal fire damage (I even went super sayain here, per say, and I did nothing)

Eventually, after futile attempt after futile attempt, Visillie appears and opens this door that the android claims was locked, and I run through, find the being's real body, and destroy it with fire. The party then questions me on how I phased through a door, but I said it was open. They ignore me and I tell them off.

Our session then ended as we approached the next station as we watched the nations, all of them with technology we've seen in LAMBS but everywhere, and watching it all get destroyed in a flash as nation after nation is destroyed in a volley of world ending arcane blasts.

So in a nutshell: magic nukes, fallout+bioshock baby, psycho magic pinnochio, and watching terminator in D&D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 19, 2015, 12:10:09 am

Quote from: Bohandas on October 18, 2015, 05:37:57 pm

Why are plant creatures (at least in 3e/3.5e) immune to poison? That doesn't make sense to me? Haven't they ever heard of Agent Orange? or Roundup? are these creatures all products of Monsanto?

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 18, 2015, 05:57:44 pm

I would imagine most poisons aren't herbicides. Having a poison that congeals the blood won't do much if you don't have blood, etc.

The casualty of being forced to sum all poisons under one effect. Doubtless some supplement somewhere has a poison that is noted to kill plants.

It is specifically noted in the entry that explains the plant's immunity to poison that poisons that specifically target (or include) plants are A-OK.

Plants sort of lack many of the functions that make most poisons deadly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 19, 2015, 12:23:05 am

I had a great idea for an antihero D&D campaign arc; maybe one of you can use it.

Basically, there's this oppressive kingdom that's propped up by the lawful-evil baatezu in a They Live/The Matrix-esque fashion, except maybe not quite as secretive. The PCs get involved with the resistance, but the resistance is run by the chaotic-evil tanar-ri, and their plan to topple the regime consists mostly of a combination of mass mayhem (arson, ghoul/zombie/vampire outbreaks, that sort of thing), destruction of critical infrastructure, and doing things like gorily assassinating a regime lacky while he tries to convince the pesants that the latest oppressive measure is for their protection and screaming "no one can protect you!" as they toss that lackey's severed head into the assembled crowd.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on October 19, 2015, 12:24:30 am

Quote from: highmax28 on October 18, 2015, 11:51:43 pm

psycho magic pinnochio

Arguably a complete Avengers rip-off too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 19, 2015, 01:02:09 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on October 19, 2015, 12:24:30 am

Quote from: highmax28 on October 18, 2015, 11:51:43 pm

psycho magic pinnochio

Arguably a complete Avengers rip-off too.

Actually, wasn't there one of those in an old Ravenloft adventure?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on October 19, 2015, 09:54:02 am

The guy looked like the upper half of doctor Manhattan for reference. And I'm pretty sure he has no idea of any of that.

Still, it's pretty awesome. Plus, I have my own version of Reznov helping me. I'm going to laugh if it ends the same way where I think I see Visillie killing Orodini and in truth, it's just me

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 19, 2015, 11:33:01 am

Haven't played in about a month now. I am really itching to play, and hang out with my friends. I got lots of stuff I want to talk about, but no one to talk with.

One thing I am wondering is why outsiders are the only creature type that has full martial proficiencies right off the bat. Additionally, why are proficiencies racial traits, and not racial features, thus not requiring any racial hit-dice? Technically, as written aasimars and tieflings and such can swing a sword before they can walk.

On a similar note, I have a bit of confusion over Improved Unarmed Strike. There are classes that spend their whole life training with many different types of weapons, and yet they can't seem to be able to throw a proper punch. Unless they wear a cestus or some thick leather or metal gauntlets.

---

I have been also been wanting to make a few different types of characters. The first one is a non-lethal Rogue. Another is a bleeding-based Rogue. Both can be done, and can be done well, but I don't think I should do it with a single character. It just seems odd to me. Could there be non-lethal bleed?

"Nah, it's fine! See, the bleeding is internal. That's good, right?"

I've also looked a bit into Ranger traps. Pretty good for battlefield control, but their damage is fairly poor at best. I was hoping for a Rogue archetype that gave traps though. Three ideas with one character. But only one archetype gains traps, and it is kobold specific. Worse, you give up about half your sneak attack progression.

There will soon be more elements for the kineticist. Wood and void. In my opinion, they aren't finished with what they have so far. Earth has no acid abilities, and many potential composite blasts are missing. Void does negative energy damage. Therefore, it must be possible to have positive energy kineticists, can there not? I could go on quite a bit about this class.

Finally, there will also be a new trait that allows players to treat the Lawful Evil deity of Devils, Asmodeus, as though he were Lawful Neutral. Paladins of Asmodeus will be a thing. I don't know how that would work. Sort of like how Antipaladins can follow deities who aren't exactly evil, and spend their afterlife in planes of radically different alignments. Hope that Paladin enjoys Hell, because I know that Antipaladin is going to love Elysium.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on October 22, 2015, 02:42:47 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on October 19, 2015, 11:33:01 am

One thing I am wondering is why outsiders are the only creature type that has full martial proficiencies right off the bat. Additionally, why are proficiencies racial traits, and not racial features, thus not requiring any racial hit-dice? Technically, as written aasimars and tieflings and such can swing a sword before they can walk.

Game balance. Martial weapons usually deal dice damage one step higher or have a crit range one increment wider than their equivalent in a simple weapon. The majority of outsider PC characters pay a level adjustment in 3.5e as a tax on the proficiency, along with the slew of other bonuses to being a native outsider, especially the cheese you can accomplish in the 3.5e rules with the polymorph school. That being said I know a lot of DMs that will houserule that any outsider that's a PC only gets the proficiencies from their class as if they were a humanoid.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on October 19, 2015, 11:33:01 am

On a similar note, I have a bit of confusion over Improved Unarmed Strike. There are classes that spend their whole life training with many different types of weapons, and yet they can't seem to be able to throw a proper punch. Unless they wear a cestus or some thick leather or metal gauntlets.

Remember that Improved Unarmed Strike is more than just being able to deal lethal damage. You also gain the benefit of always threatening your reach area, meaning you can take attacks of opportunity much more easily. This can be handy when you're a ranged attacker or spellcaster, or if you wield a reach weapon. You don't need to occupy a hand with a weapon, can never be disarmed, etc. Admittedly though, the feat itself is fairly lackluster for the cost, acting as more of a feat tax prerequisite for other more interesting abilities.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on October 19, 2015, 11:33:01 am

I've also looked a bit into Ranger traps. Pretty good for battlefield control, but their damage is fairly poor at best. I was hoping for a Rogue archetype that gave traps though. Three ideas with one character. But only one archetype gains traps, and it is kobold specific. Worse, you give up about half your sneak attack progression.

Pathfinder has the Slayer hybrid class, which is essentially the Ranger Trapper archetype without the ranger traps. You can always just add this by spending a feat instead, though. I'd count the hybrid as strictly superior to the archetype unless really focused on delivering traps from ranged weapons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 22, 2015, 02:58:02 am

It is kind of funny that WotC tried so hard to keep all the creature types "balanced"

Given that, in the end, balance was so insane that creature rating (the rating that tells you how tough a creature is) is more of a guideline... in the same way that someone pointing on at a spot on a globe is a guideline to where the pharmacy is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 22, 2015, 06:33:57 am

The thing about an unarmed strike is that a cestus or a gauntlet / spiked gauntlet is still superior if you are not a monk-like class. They cannot be disarmed, deal slightly more damage, and you can still wield weapons in those hands.

This is in pathfinder though, so I don't know about D&D versions. Though there are many feats that require improved unarmed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on October 22, 2015, 07:08:44 am

Oh, they can literally be disarmed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 22, 2015, 07:09:50 am

Well, I mean... Yeah. If you punch a dude and you're wearing a big metal gauntlet it is going to do more than bare knuckles. A cestus is pretty much the same, being a similar sort of battle glove.

Both are better than bare flesh. It's why knuckledusters were ever a thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 22, 2015, 07:10:01 am

Quote from: scriver on October 22, 2015, 07:08:44 am

Oh, they can literally be disarmed.

I think you mean ironically be disarmed.

Since the "Literal word for having one's arm removed" is dismembered

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 22, 2015, 07:18:52 am

Did you roll a 1 for your humour check, Neo?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 22, 2015, 08:36:38 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 22, 2015, 07:09:50 am

Well, I mean... Yeah. If you punch a dude and you're wearing a big metal gauntlet it is going to do more than bare knuckles. A cestus is pretty much the same, being a similar sort of battle glove.

Both are better than bare flesh. It's why knuckledusters were ever a thing.

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the weapons don't provoke attacks of opportunity, while a punch made without Improved Unarmed Strike does provoke.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 23, 2015, 12:44:44 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 22, 2015, 07:08:44 am

Oh, they can literally be disarmed.

That reminds me of something I've been thinking about. Would a weapon enchantment hat severs a random extremity on a critical hit be worth less, equal, or more than a vorpal weapon? In terms of pure damage damage it'd probably merely instantly disable (or less, depending on saving throws and specific extremity) rather than instantly kill, but it would be useful against creatures with no head or which are all head (like beholders).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on October 23, 2015, 12:58:13 pm

That got me reading the description for vorpal which is... pretty weird.

Quote

Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads.

First off, I never knew that the critical had to be confirmed.  Because it's not a normal critical, it's specifically a natural 20 (ignores extended crit range).  And it specifically works against (crit-immune) vampires, even though you're "confirming a critical".

But it also claims that all undead other than vampires are unaffected by losing their heads?  Huh?  Have they not heard of ghouls :P

What a weird passage.  Anyway that enchantment would probably be worth a lot more, if it worked on all criticals and continued to work on undead.  Removing a leg would probably make even an undead perma-prone and moving at 5ft with a full round action (without repair or flight).  Removing an arm isn't that bad either, particularly if living creatures have to make a fort save against shock/pain.  I assume it neatly cauterizes but maybe it doesn't, in which case it'd be pretty lethal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 25, 2015, 12:43:12 am

Finally got to play Pathfinder again. Out of combat can be a bit boring or induce feelings of inadequacy when you're the Big Dumb Fighter, but it seems a bit worse than in other campaigns due to the fact that we are missing a high-charisma character with ranks invested in social skills to act as the Party Face. Stibbins is trying though. Despite having a minus three charisma. Even for a Dwarf he is pretty uncharismatic.

We wandered from town to town on our way to a large city. Camped out in the night a few times. Fey kept trying to ambush us, but even if we failed our perceptions, the Druid's wolf has a keen nose to help sniff out danger. We also helped a man who was mind-controlled by some mold by beating him over the head until the mold died. Actually, the only one to hurt him instead of the mold was the sorceress who let loose a burning hands spell.

Everyone also had their eyes plucked out by raven swarms at one point. Luckily the warpriest has a pretty good heal skill. Damned birds.

I wrestled a wolf in the snow, and the Druid tried to trip it with his scythe. He told me to let go of the wolf so he could get it, and I refused. I said I'd rather go down with the wolf, so he tripped me. Not willingly, either; he beat my CMD by about five, so he got me good.

We also discussed some of the points I mentioned wanting to talk about on here, including the Paladins of Asmodeus, the non-lethal-bleeding Rogue, a minor bit about Ranger traps, the weirdness of creature-types, Lovecraft's cat, and the usefulness of Goblin condoms.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 26, 2015, 06:57:44 pm

Is this class balanced?

Soothsayer

Saves: Fort (bad), Ref (bad), Will (Good)
Bab: As Wizard
HD: d4

Special Abilities
lv01 Lore, Initiative Bonus +1
lv02 Bonus Feat, Trapfinding
lv03 Advanced Learning
lv04 Skill bonus, Skepticism +1
lv05 Initiative Bonus +2
lv06 Bonus Language
lv07 Advnaced Learning
lv08 Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge
lv09 Initiative Bonus +3
lv10 Reflex Save Bonus +1
lv11 Advanced Learning, Skepticism +2
lv12 Bonus Language, Skill Bonus
lv13 Initiative Bonus +4
lv14 Bonus Feat
lv15 Advanced Learning
lv16 Improvede Uncanny Dodge
lv17 Initiative Bonus +5, Skepticism +3
lv18 Linguistics
lv19 Advanced Learning
lv20 Bonus Feat, Reflex Save Bonus +2, Skill Bonus, Unshakable Will


Official Spell progression for this class type
lv01 5/3
lv02 6/4
lv03 6/5
lv04 6/6/3
lv05 6/6/4
lv06 6/6/5/3
lv07 6/6/6/4
lv08 6/6/6/5/3
lv09 6/6/6/6/4
lv10 6/6/6/6/5/3
lv11 6/6/6/6/6/4
lv12 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv13 6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv14 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv15 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv16 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv17 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv18 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv19 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv20 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5

though it should be

lv01 5/3
lv02 6/4
lv03 6/5/3
lv04 6/6/4
lv05 6/6/5/3
lv06 6/6/6/4
lv07 6/6/6/5/3
lv08 6/6/6/6/4
lv09 6/6/6/6/5/3
lv10 6/6/6/6/6/4
lv11 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv12 6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv13 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv14 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv15 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv16 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv17 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3
lv18 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
lv19 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5 (/3)
lv20 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6 (/4)


Lore: Bonus equal to 1/2 soothsayer level. Stacks with Loremaster lore ability.

Linguistics: Gain a bonus language plus a bonus feat from the following list
Linguistics Bonus Feats: Dark Speech (BoVD, FC1, FC2), Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind (ToM), Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Decipher Script, Forgery, or Truespeech), Utterance of the Evolving Mind (ToM), Words of Creation (BoED)

Reflex Save Bonus: Insight bonus of the indicated amount

Skill bonus: +1 insight bonus each time to one of the Following: Appraise, Decipher Script, Gather Information, Heal, Knowledge (pick one), Sense Motive, Spellcraft

Skepticism: Insight bonus of the listed amount to will saves to disbelieve

Unshakable Will: If a 20th level soothsayer makes a successful Will saving throw against an effect that normally has a partial effect on a successful save, there is instead no effect. An unconscious soothsayer does not gain the benefit of Unshakable Will.

General Bonus Feat List:
Alertness, Appraise Magic Value (CAd), Arcane Disciple (CD), Arcane Thesis (PHB2), Blind Fight, Brew Potion, Communicator (CA), Cool Head (CSco), Diligent, Disguide Spell (CAd), Dodge, Enlarge Spell, Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Eyes in the Back of Your Head (CW), Graft Flesh (LOM, FF), Greater Spell Focus (Divination only), Hear the Unseen CAd), Improved Initiative, Insightful (CA), Insightful Divination (CM), Insightful Reflexes (CAd), Investigator, Iron Will, Jack of All Trades (CAd), Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Magic Disruption (CM), Magic Sensitive (CM), Metamagic School Focus (Divination) (CM), Mystic Backlash (CM), Negotiator, Night Haunt (CA), Obscure Lore (CAd), Open Minded (CAd, EPH), Persuasive, Scribe Scroll, Self-Sufficient, Spell Focus (Abjuration, Divination, Transmutation, or Necromancy), Spell Penetration, Sunlight Eyes (CM), Track, Vatic gaze (PHB2), Widen Spell



Class Skills:
Appraise, Autohypnosis (EPH), Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (all), Listen, Perform (Oratory), Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, True Speach (ToM), Use Magic Device



Spellcasting:
Intelligence determines spell save DC
Wisdom determines bonus spells
Otherwise as Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer.


Spell List

Lv0- Amanuensis (sc), Arcane Mark, Dawn (sc), Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Guidance, Know Direction, Light, Naturewatch (sc), Read Magic, Silent Portal

Lv1- Alarm, Allied Footsteps (cm), Amplify (sc), Appraising Touch (sc), Bloodhound (sc), Comprehend Languages, Dancing Lights, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Snares and Pits, Detect Undead, Faerie Fire, Find Temple (sc), Guided Path (sc), Guiding Light (sc), Identify, Instant Search (sc), Know Greatest Enemy (sc), Living Prints (sc), Message, Omen of Peril, Spontaneous Search (sc), Targeting Ray (sc), True Casting (cm) True Strike, Vigilant Slumber (cm), Vision of Glory (sc)

Lv2- Animal Messenger, Circle Dance (sc), Continual Flame, Corpse Candle, Deathwatch, Detect Thoughts, Discern Shapechanger (sc), Erase, Eyes of the Avoral (BOED), Find Traps, Healthful Rest (sc), Hide From Animals, Hold Portal, Listening Lorecall (sc), Locate Object, Low Light Vision (sc), Luminous Gaze (sc), Magic Aura, Master's Touch (sc), Mending, Sanctuary, Scent (sc), See Invisibility, Sleep, Songbird (SC) (oratory only), Speak With Animals, Speak With Plants, Ventriloquism, Zone of Truth

Lv3- Analyze Portal (sc), Anticipate Teleportation (sc), Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Darkvision, Discern Lies, Find the Gap, Fox's Cunning, Glitterdust, Healing Lorecall (sc), Invisibility Purge, Know Opponent (sc), Know Vulnerabilities (sc), Lesser Telepathicv Bond (sc), Listening Coin (sc), Locate Object, Make Whole, Mechanus Mind (SC), One With The Land (sc), Owl's Wisdom, Protection From Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Speak With Dead, Speechlink (sc), Tongues, Weather Eye (sc)

Lv4- Arcane Eye, Arcane Lock, Assay Spell Resistance, Blessed Sight (BoED), Blindsight (sc), Calm Emotions, Chain of Eyes, Daylight, Detect Scrying, Divination, Enthrall, Helping Hand, Implacable Pursuer (sc), Interplanar Message (sc), Lay of the Land (sc), Locate Creature, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Safety (sc), Scent (sc), Scrying,

Lv5- Commune, Commune With Nature, Contact Other Plane, Deeper Darkvision (sc), Dispel Magic, Dream, Echo Skull, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Magic Circle Against Good/Evil/Law/Chaos, Prying Eyes, Sending, Sonorous Hum (sc), Telepathic Bond, Zone of Revelation (sc)

Lv6- Analyze Dweomer, Break Enchantment, Create Food and Water, Dream Sight (sc), Knock, Legend Lore, Lesser Geas, Nondetection, Probe Thoughts, Psychic Poison (BOVD), Secret Page, Stone Tell, True Seeing, Wall of Light

Lv7- Brain Spider (sc), Dismissal, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Scrying, Illusory Script, Leomund's Secure Shelter, Lesser Planar Binding, Mass Fox's Cunning, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Telepathy Block (BOED), Vision

Lv8- Cure Light Wounds, Discern Location, Geas, Greater Prying Eyes, Hindsight (sc), Lesser Planar Ally, Mental Pinnacle (EPH), Moment of Prescience, Scramble Portal (sc)

Lv9- Astral Projection, Awaken, Banishment, Cure Moderate Wounds, Eye of Power (sc), Fiendish Clarity (BOVD), Foresight, Planar Binding, Seal Portal (sc)

EDIT:
fixed a typo in the spell progression

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on October 27, 2015, 06:04:32 am

First impression: Lose trapfinding. Doesn't really mesh with the theme of the class being a divination/support class who just suddenly knows how to disable complex mechanical devices. If you want a full progression caster with trapfinding then just play a Beguiler.

A base class should have some dead levels in it. Your version has full caster progression plus candy at every level including a bunch of free feats. The spell selection for the class is obviously weakened to compensate, but that still doesn't remove the impression I get that you've loaded this class with freebies every level like it was a prestige with no prerequisites.

I see no reason to have Cure Light Wounds or Cure Moderate Wounds on the spell list except to allow you to use wands for free without needing a Use Magic Device check. Get rid of them from the list.

Lose Spot and Listen from the class skill list, and since you didn't list it, I'd rate this class at 4+Int skill points per level. I'd recommend comparing the class skill list vs. the Loremaster prestige list to determine what would be appropriate. Diplomacy and Sense Motive are two more skills I'd rate as being worth cutting too.

I'm not seeing what this character does in combat. How would this class contribute at level 5 vs. a Troll? At level 10 vs. a Fire Giant?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on October 27, 2015, 06:17:35 am

About trapfinding: since trapfinding is both the ability to detect and disable traps of DC 20+, I think it would be mire fitting to the class theme if it only got the finding half of it.

Then again, it just struck me, if the idea is that a person that can foresee/see beyond sight gets a bonus to defend against hidden dangers, then that would be something like Uncanny Dodge instead, I think.

Edit: Evasion. I meant Evasion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 27, 2015, 11:01:33 am

Quote from: scriver on October 27, 2015, 06:17:35 am

About trapfinding: since trapfinding is both the ability to detect and disable traps of DC 20+, I think it would be mire fitting to the class theme if it only got the finding half of it.

Yeah. I was considering that but wasn't sure. Might even limit it further to only finding magical traps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on October 27, 2015, 11:52:15 am

All in all I fund the idea of a "practical diviner" type of class mire interesting the more I think about it, particularly for the typical adventurer profession.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 27, 2015, 12:58:08 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on October 27, 2015, 06:04:32 am

I'm not seeing what this character does in combat. How would this class contribute at level 5 vs. a Troll? At level 10 vs. a Fire Giant?

At level 10 they have a few buffs and debuffs. Overall though they're probably crap in combat, at least compared to most other casters. They'd possibly be better as a villain or quest-giver.

Their crappiness in offense and suboptimality in combat support also helps counterbalance their various special abilities and stuff which were mentioned before as being unusually numerous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 27, 2015, 03:52:10 pm

It's like the living definition of the fifth wheel. Definitely fits better as a class for NPCs.

You might be better off trying to back-port the Oracle from PF with a selection of the more appropriate mysteries (Lore, Occult, &c.).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on October 27, 2015, 11:34:45 pm

How do you think they would fare against an adept or magewright of equal level? If they were significantly better that's arguably the test of being powerful enouh to be a pc class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on October 28, 2015, 12:09:37 am

I meant more in the sense of party role. What role do you see them filling, and why would someone take this class instead of flavoring their character in a similar way while taking another class? It looks like a grab-bag of utility. I described it as an NPC class not because of how powerful it is, but because of what it does: it's the sort of class where you don't want a player (unless you have a player who especially wants to play something in this niche), you want someone you can strap to the BSF's back and point at problems, in the same way that a Healer is basically a living wand.

e: That's not to say that I don't like the concept, it's just that right now it looks like a list of "how many utilities can I fit into one class" and not much else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on October 29, 2015, 05:19:35 am

My level 9 Pathfinder Wizard got a rod of lesser maximize, and I've decided the most horrible thing I can do with it is to learn Explosive Runes. Prep 3 pieces of paper per day with it during downtime, then when we go adventuring use Summon Monster III to summon 3 small air elementals using maximized 1d3 Summon Monster II. Give them the notes and tell them to go over to the enemy and read them. Optionally order them to scream "Death to America!" while they do so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on October 29, 2015, 05:47:42 am

Quote from: Jimmy on October 29, 2015, 05:19:35 am

My level 9 Pathfinder Wizard got a rod of lesser maximize, and I've decided the most horrible thing I can do with it is to learn Explosive Runes. Prep 3 pieces of paper per day with it during downtime, then when we go adventuring use Summon Monster III to summon 3 small air elementals using maximized 1d3 Summon Monster II. Give them the notes and tell them to go over to the enemy and read them. Optionally order them to scream "Death to America!" while they do so.

Now if you were a Fire Sorcerer you would be much more effective :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 02, 2015, 02:16:09 pm

Feeling some real burnout with my campaign, the ideas are there, but the group is stumbling along.  Not sure what to do to help improve focus, might just be stress, on one or both ends.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on November 02, 2015, 03:48:26 pm

Can you give any more detail?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 02, 2015, 07:58:43 pm

Well, I feel a bit unfocused, but really we seem to have hit a lull in the game that combined with the general stresses of daily life seem to be making the game drag pretty hard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 02, 2015, 08:36:43 pm

Gestalted Mythic campaign: For when only half the group shows up on game night and you feel that game-balance, that fickle, imprecise whore, shouldn't just be murdered horrifically, but should suffer horribly the whole damn way through.

My character was rather half-assed. I've never thought up a gestalt concept before. Not one that I would actually be able to play without damn near all 18s across the attribute board. Kineticist/Barbarian am I. A man wrapped in bandages, with what little skin that is shown being covered in burns, because Pyro-Kineticist. And no real name, with a featureless white mask to hide his face. 'Cuz I'm lazy and unimaginative. Also because a Battle Mask gives an Intimidate bonus, to offset the fact that my Charisma isn't great. The others think think his name is supposed to be racist, so I won't repeat it. Didn't mean it the way they took it.

There's also a Paladin/Fighter who didn't have the stat spread to be a Paladin/Monk, a Magus/Oracle whose backstory is that he coasts by through sheer luck, despite his stupidity, and a Magus/Bloodrager who really wanted to be a half-dragon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 03, 2015, 01:25:12 am

My ex-DM is starting a new campaign, with an... Interesting rule:
At every level you pick two classes, and get all the best parts of each.
IE, if you pick wizard and fighter, you get the bonus feats and d10 and good fort, also you advance a full level in spellcasting and your familiar.

I won't be playing, but I'm helping my brother build his character.
And yes, the first thing I said once I understood the rules was to choose fighter/barbarian/soulknife plus cleric/wizard.  If he wanted to optimize.

Since he was leaning towards Soulknife+barbarian... :-X
Addendum:  It's a "mundane" setting, in that the only magic is psionic.  No extraordinary or supernatural abilities will function unless they're psionic.

Just curious as to what people make of the mechanics.  Personally, I'm a little skeptical...  Though the outcome depends on the players, and the DM is great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on November 03, 2015, 05:18:45 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 03, 2015, 01:25:12 am

Addendum:  It's a "mundane" setting, in that the only magic is psionic.  No extraordinary or supernatural abilities will function unless they're psionic.

Just curious as to what people make of the mechanics.  Personally, I'm a little skeptical...  Though the outcome depends on the players, and the DM is great.

If the only abilities that function in the setting are psionic abilities, that would mean that Barbarians can't rage, since it's an (Ex) ability. Monks can't use Flurry of Blows for the same reason. Rangers can't use Favored Enemy. Druids can't use Wild Shape or gain an Animal Companion. Might want to clarify exactly what isn't allowed from the class ability lists before you pick your two classes. Probably best to go Fighter/Psion and prestige out after level 5 using all the free bonus feats if he's cutting so much from the class lists.

Otherwise, I'd love to see him go Barbarian/Druid. Raging Dire Bear for the win.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on November 03, 2015, 10:33:32 am

Is there even a reason for the (Ex) ability tag to exist, from a rules perspective? Because things like weapon proficiency and a rogue's sneak attack and even the monk's perfect self feature don't have any tags associated with them (at least according to the SRD). Is there a point to this other than pointing out that they're cool emphasizing that they can't be dispelled and still work in antimagic fields (just like armor proficiency)? Is there anything elsewhere in the core rules or in a later supplement that actually builds on or references (Ex) abilities in any way?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 03, 2015, 10:40:55 am

He's specifically allowing extraordinary, but not supernatural or spell-like, or outright spellcasting.  Unless they're psionic in nature.

@Kadzar:  Huh, I actually don't know why they don't classify Sneak Attack as extraordinary (or anything at all).  Trapfinding neither...  Good question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on November 03, 2015, 03:24:36 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on November 03, 2015, 10:33:32 am

Is there even a reason for the (Ex) ability tag to exist, from a rules perspective? Because things like weapon proficiency and a rogue's sneak attack and even the monk's perfect self feature don't have any tags associated with them (at least according to the SRD). Is there a point to this other than pointing out that they're cool emphasizing that they can't be dispelled and still work in antimagic fields (just like armor proficiency)? Is there anything elsewhere in the core rules or in a later supplement that actually builds on or references (Ex) abilities in any way?

I think it relates to shapechanging spells like polymorph and stuff; the lower level ones don't grant you the new form's extraordinary abilities but some of the higher level ones do

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 03, 2015, 06:00:07 pm

That makes some sense for racial untyped abilities (though it seems like a grey area).  But there are many untyped class abilities too...  I don't know why.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on November 03, 2015, 08:17:12 pm

Extraordinary abilities work in antimagic fields. Supernatural abilities don't. Spell-like abilities provoke AoO, supernatural and extraordinary abilities don't (unless specified).

That's the difference between the three. Thus, sneak attack and trapfinding are extra-ordinary - it's not an "ordinary" thing that everyone has access to, but also non-magical.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 03, 2015, 08:25:34 pm

But they're not labelled as extraordinary, even alongside abilities which are. 

Apparently the player's handbook clarifies a little, that these unlabelled abilities are a fourth type called "natural abilities".  I have no idea how these differ from extraordinary abilities, when attached to classes.  When applied to races they probably matter for "alter self", but that doesn't matter with classes...

(This is a really subtle, arcane thing that won't matter for most people.  Generally yeah, they're basically just extraordinary.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 04, 2015, 01:13:34 am

Yeah, by my understanding, Natural Abilities are wholly physical and, by implication, neither magical nor psionic.

Granted, a lot of RAW relating to this is sloppy and inconsistent, but theoretically a creature with flight as Natural would lose its ability to fly if shapechanged, while a creature with flight as Ex would not, for example.

But mostly it's a distinction that doesn't need to exist, since pretty much everything it could cover has been subsumed into other categories.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on November 07, 2015, 03:10:29 am

How does this spell sound

Apophenia

Enchantment [Mind-Aftecting]

Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: See Text

This spell implants a delusional belief so powerful that it becomes real

As "Wish" except as noted above and with the following exceptions:

* The spell only functions on Divinely Morphic planes or on Highly Morphic Planes responsive to mental influence (such as Limbo and the Region of Dreams). It also functions on the Astral Plane but has a 50% chance of outright failure there.
* The spell cannot reproduce any divinations of the standard information-revealing type (although it can reproduce divinations concerned with communication such as "Telepathic bond" and divinations concerned with probability manipulation such as "Unluck". If a communication related divination reproduced with this spell is dispelled before its duration ends, the recipients may continue to receive false input in the place of the communication they would have received from each other)
*Any attempt to reproduce an information gathering divination yields false information
*The spell can reproduce non-wizard transmutations and abjurations of up to one level higher than usual
*The level limit for all evocations is one lower than for wish
*Any use of this spell to target a creature other than the caster entitles the target to an additional will save to completely avoid the effect, over and above any saving throw the effect might or might not already offer.
*All effects are only 2d20+60% real, after the manner of a "Shadow Conjuration", "Shadow Evocation", or "Shades" which has been disbelieved. Unlike "shadow conjuration", nondamaging effects do not automatically have a chance to fail, instead their other numerical effects are reduced, or if this is not applicable their duration is, only if none of these factors are applicable is a chance of failure rolled for.
*No XP cost

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 07, 2015, 11:00:17 pm

I have way more health than I should for a level three. Yay Gestalt Kineticist Barbarian! High Con + High Hitdie per level + obscure feats that give even more hitpoints = disgusting amounts of health. But are countered by my laughably low AC.

The other guys are a bit annoyed at me being a dirty little dick. I haven't done much in combat though. I set a couple things on fire, but that's about it.

Meanwhile the Arcanist/Wizard (strange mix, I think) kept summoning every single round as a standard action due to class ability shenanigans. One poor fool opened a door to see what the commotion was as we were massacring his friends, only to immediately be buried under a mountain of Doge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 08, 2015, 01:03:44 am

Another weekend with no game.  I don't blame people for feeling unwell, or just being stressed, but it makes my running the campaign vastly more difficult when we don't actually play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on November 10, 2015, 05:11:12 am

Reposting my Pathfinder character's journal here for you all to enjoy. Apologies for lack of context, much of the humour comes from being at the table when it actually happened.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6th Sarenith, 712 AS continued

With our success in destroying the cultists, we returned to the SHOA with our prisoner and the corpse of their leader, turning them in for the reward. Imagine my displeasure when we discovered that no official bounty had been issued for their capture! After having a few strong words about the finer points of a fee for service model with the guard captain, eventually a promise of coin was given as recognition of our heroic efforts in selflessly assisting the city and preventing the cultist menace from taking root.

After concluding the business of handing over the living prisoner, obtaining a receipt for his delivery, and finalizing the paperwork involved in the conclusion of the venture, we returned to the Hydra and Bear, gracing the gathered devotees of The Professionals with the daring tale of our conquest of the cultists. We sent out the call for any who would aspire to travel to new and dangerous lands, seeking the adventure and wealth that would come with a life on the frontier.

7th Sarenith, 712 AS

We went as a group to the SHOA in the morning, presenting ourselves for collection of the promised reward. We were not disappointed to discover the chest filled with gleaming platinum, though perhaps the assembled guard were somewhat dissatisfied that their cleverly concealed trigger to spring a small shower of confetti was disabled by Kee. Nevertheless a job well done and payment for services rendered counts for far more in my books than celebratory explosives. Quite frankly the adventuring life contains enough surprise detonations already.

From this point we proceeded to visit Zalet at the temple of Iomedae. To avoid misunderstanding, I convinced Little Bigtoes to go shopping, sensing that the celestial representative of the divine realms may take offence to his less than meritorious moral inclinations. I personally find his idiosyncratic predilections quite whimsical, though the more rigidly dogmatic may sometimes misunderstand his unorthodox approach and mercurial capriciousness to conceal a malign propensity for pernicious depravity. I've always been inclined to favour an intellectualist consequentialism school of normative ethics over deontological moral absolutism. Unfortunately the over-zealous tend to favour smiting evil over rigorous philosophical debate.

From the temple of Iomedae we received much in the way of praise for our assistance, and little in the way of remuneration for our efforts. Despite this disappointment, Zalet saw fit to allow me to retain possession of the token he gifted us for use in summoning him to our aid, and I consider this boon a useful asset should we find ourselves in dire need of assistance. Also, directly upon our departure, we were met by Sir Yonrick, the knight-paladin of the order of Ozem, who gifted us with a shield of marvellous design, able to cast a powerful light on command that would counter any spells of darkness similar to the ones that have troubled us previously.

8th Sarenith, 712 AS

With the threat of the cultist menace well and truly wrapped up, we turned our attentions to the goal of restoring Eredhel to functional habitation and establishing our presence beyond the frontier of civilization. Having mastered the teleportation magics required to perform a long distance journey, I consulted my companions and elected to have Kee, Eclogyt and Little Bigtoes accompany me on the journey. Darrak proposed to remain behind and attend to his duties within the temple of Erastil. Without further delay, we gathered together and teleported to the ancient lost city.

Whilst our arrival was as precise as could be desired, the outcome was completely unpredicted. Our group discovered itself knee deep in orcs! The stinking creatures had retaken the keep of Eeredhel along with their goblin allies, and were currently sleeping through the midday sun. Grateful for the benefit of the element of surprise, a quick fireball served to clear the upper level of enemies, though the sound alerted the creatures on the floor below. An intense battle followed, with a seemingly unending horde of green-skinned monstrosities swarming into the keep. After fighting off the horde to a standstill, I was forced to concede the battle could not be won this day given their superior numbers. A supply of potions of invisibility served to aid our retreat from the keep, and after preparing the required spell, I teleported us back to Sommetide.

Given the development of the orc presence so close to the borders of civilized lands, I quickly alerted the town guard at the SHOA, stopping only momentarily to tend to the wounds of myself and my companions, including a particularly annoying lucky shot that a goblin had made which left an arrow shaft sticking most distractingly out of my forehead. The guard quickly elevated us up the ladder of bureaucracy, organizing an emergency meeting with governor Alarfir, to whom we relayed our encounter with the orcs. Darrak used his divine magics to produce a Sending to the Shadowfell ranger leader Giles Fyfield, from whom we learned that the orcs had already advanced as far as the Lazeri river, where they were being repelled by the ranger forces. Expressing our desire to assist in any way possible, Alarfir arranged to have a scroll of Sending sent to assist me providing reinforcements to the rangers.

In the evening, my advertisement for a songsmith bore fruit. A remarkably dashing fellow by the name of Mathus arrived to answer my summons, proving himself to be a lyricist and performer of no small skill. Together we orchestrated a rousing call to arms at the Hydra and Bear, sounding the alarm for all who wished to prove themselves on the field of battle, for all who wished to protect their homes and repel the invaders who would lay waste to everything they hold dear.

9th Sarenith, 712 AS

After discussion with the rest of the company, we each departed to begin preparations for the assault on the orc menace. For my part, I spent the morning with Mathus, recounting the tales of glory that had forged the adventuring company I founded into the enviable force we are today. Regrouping in the afternoon, I attempted to teleport our company again into Eredhel with the goal of capturing an orc for interrogation to divulge their plans, only to have my spell bend and twist away from the target! It would seem that the enemy, bloodied by the blow we dealt it the previous day, has erected some arcane form of teleportation block over their stronghold. My carefully laid plans were stymied but not yet foiled, for I felt sure that it would be possible to attempt to approach from the Lazeri river frontier instead, should direct means be unavailable for entry into Eredhel.

Returning to Sommetide to regroup and plan our next course of action, Little Bigtoes informed us he'd heard rumours of undead activity in the Sommetide graveyard. Feeling it would offer a chance for us to keep our skills sharp for the planned expedition to Eredhel, I rallied the rest of the party to the job of investigating the disturbance. As a side note, it would also seem that Kee has obtained a kitten today, the story of which I doubtless have no desire to hear recounted and likely am best being ignorant of the purpose to which he intended to put the animal. Fortunately for the creature, Eclogyt expressed interest in caring for its needs, and thus it changed hands in ownership. I only hope Darrak can restrain his dinosaur companion from enjoying Eclogyt's new kitten as a bite-sized snack.

Our late night excursion to the graveyard yielded tremendously successful results. It would appear that the cultist activity in the local area has brought about the activity of a Bodak, a life draining form of intelligent undead abomination that, if left unchecked, could easily multiply its number beyond measure. We were fortunate indeed to address this apocalyptic hazard so quickly, for without our intervention it would have made short work of any weaker willed prey. Besides the creature's withered husk, the only item of note we found at the scene was a scrap of cloth matching the style of the cultist cloaks we've encountered previously.

At the conclusion of the battle, I was disappointed to discover Kee engaging in a rather poorly concealed attempt at graverobbing. I felt it best to liberate the contents of the tomb he so clearly coveted, planning to return with them at a later date to have the gravekeepers restore them to their rightful place. With this task accomplished and carrying the undead creature's remains, I exited the graveyard to report our task complete to the tenders of this mournsome field. The twin pair of caretakers were odd in appearance, raising my suspicions and setting my sixth sense on edge. I attempted my best to uncover their true nature, using the return of one of the items from the crypt as a pretext for close examination, yet no matter how hard I tried I could not place the unnerving feeling that burned in the back of my mind. Until I could assuage the unease I felt regarding them, I felt it prudent to delay my planned restitution of the plunder.

10th Sarenith, 712 AS

In the early hours of the morning I awoke to discover an infant's cry coming from Eclogyt's side of our shared room. Perplexed and more than a little disconcerted at the implications of what this event might herald, I examined the source to find, to my intense disbelief, that the small container he had created to house his newfound kitten now played cradle to a newborn halfling! Yet the creature was not entirely humanoid, bearing obvious signs of lycanthropy and clearly in distress. Eclogyt, bless his kind soul, attempted his best to calm the infant, but though his fists may be strong enough to shatter stone, his touch carried little comfort for a distraught child. My own hand, however, swiftly guided the forlorn changeling back to slumber's embrace. The disquiet caused by the child's outburst drew many to our door that night, but I turned them all away, explaining that I would investigate the matter fully in the morning.

After thankfully returning to sleep and discovering the child had resumed its feline form the next morning, we immediately set out to find more suitable lodgings for our inadvertent ward. I immediately took her to the temple of Erastil, knowing that Darrak's companions in the clergy would know best how to care for an orphan with no home. The priest summoned was sceptical of our claim at first, but upon examining the child closely, and with a hefty donation of coin to ensure her proper care, we convinced the church to accept the poor wayward soul into their flock. I one day hope to return to follow her growth and I pray that Chaldira, whom we have aided before, will watch over this child and give her the luck she will need to make her way in this world.

I am grateful beyond measure that we acted as we did, for upon our return to the Hydra and Bear, we enquired after our promised reward from the gravekeeper pair, only to be told by the innkeeper that he'd sent a duo matching our description upstairs not moments before. As Little Bigtoes approached the foot of the stairs, his ascent was interrupted by the arrival of a corpse tumbling down from above! The twins had finally removed their masks, revealing themselves as Suspiridaemons. They had released a Cloudkill spell in the centre of the inn, a bank of fog as silent as it is deadly. We fought desperately to contain the spell and protect any further innocents from death, and the ensuing battle ended up partially destroying the structure of the stairwell and second floor. Fortunately, property damage aside, no further harm was caused, and everyone escaped with their lives, excepting the twin daemons. Kee and Little Bigtoes even saw fit to investigate and uncover a chest of treasures they claimed was intended as the reward for our earlier efforts in assisting with the extermination of the Bodak, though given the obvious intent of the daemons to kill us rather than applaud our protection of the city, I had misgivings it was instead the personal belongings of the recently departed innocent bystander. I instructed them to leave it in my room until I was able to properly identify the correct course of action to take regarding its discovery.

Of course by this point the city guard had arrived, far too late to provide meaningful assistance though they could hardly be faulted for their efforts. The scene of destruction and colourful descriptions from the concerned survivors meant that we were doubtless wanted for questioning, a role I was only to happy to play. Both Kee and Little Bigtoes, pricked no doubt by guilty consciences, attempted to slip away, only to earn themselves a pair of guards on each shoulder and a quick march to the centre of the group. Eclogyt, as he is known to sometimes do, became lost in his own meditations and wandered off completely unnoticed, only to frantically chase after us a few minutes after he'd realized he'd been accidentally separated.

Well, after a long wait in an interrogation room, eased somewhat by a small contribution to the guardsmen's amenities funds, we had the pleasure of being introduced to a one captain Harsk, a dwarf with all the personality of a pickled lemon. Nevertheless, despite his scepticism and obvious desire to charge us with a crime, the honest and trustworthy reputation of The Professionals prevailed, and grudgingly he released us without further incident, maintaining only that our band needed to compensate the Hydra and Bear for the property damages. Fortunately, my own brilliance had a rather impressive strategy in mind for accomplishing just this goal.

Leaving the others to their own devices, I immediately set out to square our accounts with the inn. Explaining my ability to effect the repairs immediately the next day, the innkeeper Celador was impressed enough to arrange for private quarters for myself, even though by all rights the business was closed to further trade. With the ground set, I went out to gather the required materials and sequestered myself away from outside distractions, passing the evening with the company of my spellbook.

11th Sarenith, 712 AS

Truly my inimitable genius knows no bounds! With but a wave of my hand, the unsightly mess was rendered better than new, a masterwork of craftselfship on par with the greatest of talents in woodwork or carpentry. I must admit to being more than a little proud of my accomplishment, and I pity the poor souls who slave and toil so desperately at their crafts, unable to fathom the tragic deficiency between their own skills and mine. Yes, though not ever having turned my hand to the plebeian trades, my own immense majesty of voluminous intellect grasped within it these so-called arts as the simple playthings they are, and to a fertile mind such as mine that is so gravid with knowledge, it was but a trifle to harness the raw powers of creativity and birth from it the newborn splendour now on display for all to witness and glorify.

In short, the repairs to the Hydra and Bear were successful. Following from my success, we were released from our obligations to our erstwhile host, and it would seem I have now gained a new quest. This time, one of a personal nature, in payment to a close friend. I have promised to find Eclogyt a badger.

My flinty friend had spent a vast amount of his time and energy to no avail attempting to find one in the wild. Given the extremely low likelihood of finding his desired target through simple trial and error, I again exercised my powers of reason to narrow the search. We began our morning by visiting traders who specialize in animal familiars, reasoning that such merchants may know of those who would deal in more exotic fauna. While unsuccessful, we did manage to gain a lead on the location of an order of druids, the faith being well known for their secrecy and antisocial habits. With a general direction and the keen eyes of my companions, we took MAC outside the city walls, searching the fields nearby until we found a circle of standing stones and the signs of a ritual being conducted therein. Approaching, we were met at the threshold by a servant of Gozreh, his deity's favour granting him access to the transmutative powers that allow their faithful to assume the guise of animals.

We parleyed and eventually came to an agreement. It would seem the grove they frequent has of late been troubled by the presence of a draconic beast, one who disrupts the flow of divine energies in the area and creates an imbalance in the natural order. We quickly agreed to find and slay this creature in exchange for the druids' assistance in bonding a badger with Eclogyt. I still do not understand the fascination my companion possesses with this creature, but I will not begrudge him his personal preferences, especially since we will be rather more certain this time that his newest pet is not a lycanthrope in disguise.

Seeking out the draconic beast's nest proved unsuccessful, and as night set, we returned to the city. We resolved to spend the following day searching in hopes of uncovering the beast's lair.

12th Sarenith, 712 AS

Eclogyt was especially motivated, as it was his keen eyes that spotted the beast's lair amongst a thick grove as we circled above. We had only just descended and buried MAC safely when the creature, sensing prey, dove from the sky in ambush! The creature was a Rift Drake, a lesser form of dragon notable for its acidic breath, an ability it used to punishing effectiveness on my companions. Nevertheless, it was no match for my own power, and my attacks swiftly had it mortally wounded. The killing blow I spared for Eclogyt's fists, giving him both the glory and honour to call the defeat his and claim his rightful prize from the druids. For myself, I investigated the beast's lair, finding the remains of an unfortunate halfling adventurer whose near endless luck had finally run out. We took what remained, along with the drake's corpse, to display to the druids.

With Eclogyt spending the rest of the day with the druids in ceremony, we four spent the afternoon investigating any further employment opportunities. Most leads ran dry, though one job announced itself as potentially lucrative. A wealthy widow had been calling for assistance with trouble from an undead spirit haunting her mansion. The combination of wealthy patron and undead threat seemed a perfect match for our skillset, and therefore we presented ourselves to her in answer to her summons.

A short conversation served to seal an agreement with the widow, an elderly gnome woman named Wilma. She presented us with the facts of the case, her long deceased husband having returned to haunt her residence and cause mischief around the house. As the weather outside turned increasingly foul, we all agreed it would be best for us to spend the night, as hauntings such as these tend to occur more commonly during the witching hours. However, it would seem that fate intended to present us the opportunity early, for no sooner had we settled down to tea with our host than a disturbance rocked the manor. I immediately leaped into action, concern for my ally Darrak, who had been investigating the upper levels of the mansion alone, paramount in my mind. Imagine my bewilderment when I discovered him, howling with laughter, standing upon the upper landing of the staircase as the juvenile prank he'd committed.

But before I could give him the scolding he so richly deserved, an incorporeal haze seemed to push out from within him, attempting to attack Kee before apparently being repulsed and vanishing into the ceiling. I gave chase, cornering the ghostly creature in the attic, and identified it as a spirit of trickery and ill will known as a Phantasm. The creature, unmasked at last, led us on a merry chase before being cornered in the drawing room, causing immense chaos and destroying a rather expensive table in the process. Nevertheless we eventually destroyed the spirit's form, dispelling its link to the corporeal realm and sending it to the afterlife. I was able to repair the property damage with a little assistance from Darrak, and with the matter resolved and payment in hand, we all enjoyed a restful evening's peace in Wilma's company.

13th Sarenith, 712 AS

I was woken at an ungodly hour this morning by Kee, who had maintained watch from the attic window overlooking the street. Whilst I may not have been in the most gregarious of temperaments upon arising, in retrospect his actions showed a remarkable foresight and situational alertness and deserve credit. It was he who detected signs of the fabled headless horseman murderer, and discovered the corpse that lay directly outside our current host's dwelling. The pouring rain and dark night served to destroy any chance that might have been had of effecting pursuit of the killer, though the body remained to await our examination. We carefully searched the unfortunate victim's remains, but aside from a terminal case of decapitation, the motives for his death remained unclear.

Together with Kee, I took MAC to the nearest guard post, rousing the luckless guardswoman from the warmth of her booth and summoning her into the dark and stormy pre-dawn. Providing what shelter I could offer from the elements, I transported her to the scene of the crime and assisted as best I was able. We accompanied her to the guard headquarters to give our statements, meeting with her superior officer, who also had the distinction of being her uncle. Our part in the proceedings was brief, and we were cleared of any suspicion immediately and given leave to depart. We returned to Wilma's manor, entering quietly and passing what little time remained until true dawn attempting to salvage what we could from our interrupted rest.

As we departed Wilma's mansion, we found the scene of the crime outside being attended by a mortician named Tyreck. We held a short discussion with him and made enquiries about his knowledge of the seemingly random killings, learning from him that it appeared the victims were as a rule isolated, wretched and lonely creatures without close friends or family to miss them. My thoughts immediately returned to the claim that Kee made of being the first to observe this killer, and the link became all to clear upon this revelation. A second clue presented itself when Tyreck claimed the bodies to be as a rule all missing pieces, from limbs to organs. Given our thorough examination earlier had shown no such evidence, we were sceptical of this claim until shown by Tyreck that the victim before us was indeed missing its kidneys. Kee immediately abandoned all pretence of civility, all but outright accusing Tyreck of necromancy. At this point I knew it was doubtful that any further information would be forthcoming from our defensive informant, and elected to abandon this line of inquiry in favour of other avenues of investigation.

We travelled to the Sommetide graveyard to follow up on the outcome of the investigation into the Bodak's appearance and the fate of the gravekeeper twins. As predicted, the unfortunate guardians of the cemetery had met their end at the hands of the daemons, and as such it was impossible to question them for further information. The graveyard itself had experienced no additional disturbance, and the guard presence remained vigilant against any further undead activity. Questioning the guards, we learned the location of the city morgue, and decided to attempt to have Darrak question the victim of the attack to determine if they knew any information that might be relevant to our investigation of the headless horseman.

Arriving at the morgue, we found the mortician at his place of work. He seemed shocked to encounter us again, expressing great unease at our intrusion into his domain. When we requested access to the corpse of the victim of the most recent attack, he informed us that it had already been cremated as per the wishes of their next of kin, producing signed paperwork that corroborated his claim. With this avenue closed to us, we returned to the guard headquarters and requested permission to interview the next of kin specified on the paperwork, and through the power of my reputation as a reliable and trustworthy private investigator, we obtained permission to have a guard escort accompany us to the deceased's residence. Our interview was short-lived, however, as immediately upon speaking with the doorman, we discovered the household remained ignorant of the murder of their employer. We immediately returned to the guard headquarters, thrusting the falsehood of the forged paperwork and the deception within the guard's own organization into the light. Assured by the captain he would investigate the matter fully, we departed with the satisfaction of having righted a great wrong today.

Having done all we could do to provide the guard a breakthrough in the case of the headless horseman, we turned our attention again to recovering Eredhel. With the increase in the numbers of the company now that we had gained several new followers, I explained the limitations of my teleportation magics in transporting multiple companions. Given that I could take six others at most this day, it was eventually decided that Little Bigtoes would remain behind while I transported Kee, Darrak and Eclogyt with me to the Lazeri river front line. As I spoke the incantation to bend reality itself to my will, a surge of magical energy pushed against me, forcing us to appear with a dizzying jolt in the centre of a road that was quite clearly not the destination we were targeting.

Of course it was Kee who felt the need to point out the obvious discrepancy between our intended arrival point and the current location. I offer to spend my considerable arcane power in commanding the fundamental laws of the universe to sit down and shut up for a moment while I move the four of us hundreds of miles in an instant, yet should we be deflected by what is obviously the work of the enemy's spellcasters, instantly I am to blame. Perhaps if Kee wishes to criticize my abilities, I should 'forget' to include several of his internal organs the next time he requires transportation so that he has something relevant to whine about.

Having triangulated our position and determined that we were not too far off target, I gathered my focus and channelled all my power to push through the infernal barrier that wards the front line. Happily, my arcane might was more than sufficient to overcome the paltry resistance of the enemy, and we arrived amidst the ranger camp. Announcing our arrival to the defenders, we were escorted to meet with Leon, the acting commander of the camp. He seemed grateful to see reinforcements arrive from the western realms, and after offering our assistance in combating the orc menace, he requested we eliminate a forward scouting party three hours journey from the camp.

The march was uneventful, and soon we arrived at a grove of large trees that served to provide concealment for the camp. The orcs launched their attacks despite our attempt to parley, and without further delay the battle was joined. The creatures fell quickly, but though five perished from their wounds, the sixth was preserved and taken prisoner. Their equipment was well constructed, and despite the poor resistance they mounted it would appear they were an elite unit. We took the heads and hands from the enemy corpses to prevent them being resurrected, burning the rest of the remains, then returned to the ranger camp to report our success and deliver our prisoner.

The rangers appeared pleased with our results, and after recalling the bounty in Sommetide for the ears of orc invaders, I collected the requested parts as well as the more valuable items from the orcs and teleported back to the Hydra and Bear. After stopping briefly at the market to sell the equipment we'd obtained, I went to seek out Little Bigtoes and keep him company for the evening until I was able to transport us to the Lazeri river the following day.

My first stop at Wilma's house was unsuccessful in locating my missing ally. She reported his earlier claims of permission to lodge with her at her mansion were entirely fabricated falsehoods, and expressed her intense desire to never see him again. With this avenue of investigation having failed, I resorted to my familiarity with Little Bigtoes' habitual behaviour and predicted his next most likely destination. Extrapolating the likelihood of his desires, I proceeded to the Bean and Vermin, proving my hypothesis when I discovered him at a table deep in his cups. Discussing the plans for the evening, we agreed that we'd attempt one more try at locating this mysterious headless killer before departing for the Lazeri river the next morning.

We proceeded to patrol the warrens of down-town Sommetide, Little Bigtoes acting as bait while I followed as the eyes. Imagine our lack of surprise when, after a few hours, who should appear but our mortician friend Tyreck. We followed him as he spent an hour taking notes of obvious targets, jotting them down in a little book of premeditated murders. Obviously we were not going to allow him the opportunity to commit his butchery again simply to catch him red-handed, and so I agreed with Little Bigtoes that it would be best if we struck a pre-emptive blow. Our attack caught him completely off guard, though he recovered quickly enough to cast a powerful spell and transform my companion into a small fluffy bunny while I was occupied summoning an elemental to restrain him. The transformation was swiftly dispelled however, and whilst we made every effort to capture him alive, Tyreck succumbed to his wounds and fell into death's embrace. Thinking it best to ensure that there would be no possibility of the remains of such a powerful necromancer returning to unlife, we hastened to destroy the corpse and scatter the pieces far and wide, ensuring that he could never again reanimate and threaten the innocent.

After ensuring Sommetide's safety and protecting it's inhabitants from the dark evils who would murder innocents in the street, we retired to Wilma's mansion at Little Bigtoes' insistence. Despite encountering initial difficulties with entry due to a sticky locked door, we eventually managed to make ourselves comfortable in the lavish guest accommodations and enjoyed a well-earned night's rest.

14th Sarenith, 712 AS

Awaking to the sound of a commotion upstairs, I slipped outside and knocked on Wilma's front door. As predicted, Little Bigtoes' claims of securing permission for our stay were overly optimistic, but ever one to attempt to turn a mishap into an opportunity, I attempted to negotiate a fee for removing my companion from Wilma's dwelling. Unfortunately my negotiation was unsuccessful, and so I ended up paying her damages for the stay. Ascending upstairs, I was exposed to a full frontal view of my companion as he exited a bath of what I can only conclude from the thickness and colour to be a washtub filled with gravy.

I teleported Little Bigtoes and myself to the Lazeri River, reuniting with my companions. It would appear that the night was uneventful and little of note had occurred in my absence, though Darrak once again intended to perform a Scrying upon the goblin army leader to divine his location. Leaving him to his likely pointless exercise, I teleported back to Sommetide and collected our two animal followers and Kee's shadow companion, transporting them to the group.

With several hours to pass while Darrak attempted his spells, I studied the new spellbook I'd so recently acquired from the vile murderer Tyreck. Simply finding and destroying another spellcaster to gain their spellbook strikes me as a most direct and efficient method of gaining new knowledge. I'll admit that during my student days at Infamel I once vaporized the closest competitor for the spot of first place in my Conjuration classes, but due to the fact that evidence was discovered of him dabbling in diabolism, I'm sure the events surrounding his demise were attributed to extraplanar retribution. Yet I failed at that time to consider the benefits of securing his spellbook for myself after sweeping away the ashes left from his remains, an oversight I am only just now deeply regretting. Still, I take solace in the fact that he was likely to possess no knowledge of any great worth given the ease with which I was able to disintegrate him.

I discovered that the new spellbook I've obtained contains many useful gems of knowledge, including magics so potent even I have not yet mastered the skill with which to cast them. In particular, the school of Necromancy was heavily represented, and I'm looking forward to studying several of the spells from this discipline, the use of which I feel has been sadly under-represented in my own repertoire. After marking the pages most immediately in need of attention, I finished my studies for the morning to find Darrak had returned, grumbling and cursing after an obviously unsuccessful attempt at Scrying. Little needs be said about the folly of building one's strategy around so fickle and capricious a discipline, especially when a simple, direct method of action will suffice.

After seeking out Leon and discovering the ranger was away on patrol, I spoke with his replacement, a rather dull fellow by the name of Norman, to ascertain the most likely areas of hostile activity in the local area. Darrak expressed his intent to remain at the camp for the day to assist with the care and treatment of the wounded, so after gathering the rest of my companions we agreed to scout the south-east terrain in an attempt to push back the enemy's advance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on November 10, 2015, 07:27:22 am

PTW.
Also that is a lot of journal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on November 10, 2015, 11:16:56 am

I might actually play d&d for the first time in the near-ish future c:

So yay

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 10, 2015, 11:49:14 am

Cool, if you like, feel free to let us know how it goes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 10, 2015, 03:06:26 pm

Penguin campaign this weekend

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 20, 2015, 07:12:06 pm

Anyone toyed with the new Pathfinder custom weapon creation rules in the Weapon Master's Handbook? People seem to be complaining about not being able to make absurdly powerful weapons with it. Though the rest of the book is pretty good, if heavily geared towards the Fighter class.

Also nabbed Beastiary 5. A bit disappointed in the re-skins and the re-prints. Some of the book's art is even the same. Nonetheless, there are still neat things, and I understand the need to pull things out of obscure sources, splatbooks, modules, and the like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on November 21, 2015, 04:04:47 am

I've been invited to play a Pathfinder game, but I've never even touched the system before. Could I bother the good posters of this thread for a brief rundown on how PF works, maybe a link to some helpful resources?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on November 21, 2015, 04:09:10 am

It's 95% similar to D&D 3.5, so almost anything you know about 3.5 can be translated into PF.
Also, it's all free, on this SRD. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on November 21, 2015, 04:11:59 am

That's...pretty helpful, yeah. Thanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on November 22, 2015, 12:01:58 am

It's the other 5% that throws me...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on November 22, 2015, 12:28:37 am

Yeah it's closer to 3.5e than any given D&D edition is to any other edition

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on November 22, 2015, 02:39:31 am

Was there ever official errata released for Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss? The description of the Sibriex demons mentions spell like abilities that aren't in their stat block and I'd like to know what's up with that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 23, 2015, 05:35:02 am

There's a reason that the most common nickname for PF is D&D 3.75, after all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on November 27, 2015, 09:42:31 am

I killed my buddy's "father" (his maker) while possessed (but the thing was, I was gonig to do it outside of possession because reasons) and he lost his mechanus (his big ass robot) in the same round.

My buddy lost everyone his character loved in the matter of seconds. And since he's an android of a sort and generally emotionless, its pretty bad when he feels only loss.

Why did I kill him? He had unlocked the secrets of immortality and had knowledge of power so great, that we had a vision of the world being destroyed, and my character knew this knowledge was too great to be known. And because of that, he took every note, every book and every memory orb so no one who comes by here will know what happened. He also copied the notes so he will remember what was written on them, so if he loses it (and he kind of did), he knows what to look for when someone is trying to recreate it.

Oh, and my character is permanently possessed by this guy and sees him every now and then in the distance.

Oh, and the guy who possessed me? He's based on Reznov

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on November 28, 2015, 07:43:25 am

Our party's Cleric looks like he's gonna be dropping out of our Pathfinder game due to a change in his work hours. I'm trying to decide if switching my Leadership cohort from a Summoner to a Cleric might be a good choice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 28, 2015, 01:08:30 pm

Healers are always useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 28, 2015, 02:52:53 pm

And as long as you don't have anyone who actually wants to be a healbot, it's usually better to delegate that to a friendly NPC/hireling/cohort/UMD guy with wands to avoid anyone having to take one for the team.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SquatchHammer on November 28, 2015, 08:30:52 pm

I... I um... I think my character has a problem. He is a Paladin of Pyros, and no Pyros is not the The Slow Doberman of Justice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUf3ZY9aNfI) but the deific fire Elemental being in my friends game. There is temples of Pyros across the world that each has a "Wall of Flame". Each wall is a "relative" flame elemental of Pyros that is birthed within the temple. One of the ways to commune with Pyros is to walk into the wall. It's only done either for very few ceremonial purposes, crisis of faith, or the last is if one feels like its time to return to the Flame.

Well, over the course of the campaign Gregory had gone into various Walls more times just in the past year, let alone over the course of the entire time Gregory had been with the Paladins of Pyros, than any other member in the chronicled history of the Order's existence. Now he has a intricate design that has a golden glow coming from within his left hand and forearm. The only time the phenomenon occurred happened with the few paladins returned to the flame within one of the walls. Right before they disappeared in the flame, their entire bodies were covered in the said glowing designs.

I feel like Gregory might be addicted to going into the said walls at this point, much like a character who shoots up enough maco to get blue arm.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on November 28, 2015, 10:04:30 pm

Is there any particular reason he keeps walking into the Wall of Flame? Just because you can take several hitpoints worth of damage without consequence doesn't mean you should.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on November 29, 2015, 04:11:00 am

Quote from: Kadzar on November 28, 2015, 10:04:30 pm

Is there any particular reason he keeps walking into the Wall of Flame? Just because you can take several hitpoints worth of damage without consequence doesn't mean you should.

I beg to differ. My wizard regularly stops arrows with her face during the surprise round simply because she has an ungodly amount of hit points and it saves the party worrying about spending valuable time and resources trying to find hidden enemies.

Actually, given her habits, it's starting to look like a far better idea to have that Cleric cohort. Since she was raised inside the temple of Nethys, I guess she'll get one from that faith. It's a shame though, I'd much rather a cleric with access to the Travel and Luck domain (or alternatively, Madness).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on November 29, 2015, 08:58:05 am

Yeah the travel domain is *boss*. Free motion x rounds per day without preparation, yes please! Not to mention teleportation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SquatchHammer on November 29, 2015, 05:05:58 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on November 28, 2015, 10:04:30 pm

Is there any particular reason he keeps walking into the Wall of Flame? Just because you can take several hitpoints worth of damage without consequence doesn't mean you should.

The wall itself is a fire elemental that is connected to Pyros. Unless I had failed my will save to commune with Pyros, he wont get burned.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on November 29, 2015, 06:57:31 pm

Bought copies of Planescape: Torment and the complete Krynn trilogy on Good Old Games a couple of days ago when they were on sale.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on November 29, 2015, 08:35:52 pm

Quote from: SquatchHammer on November 29, 2015, 05:05:58 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on November 28, 2015, 10:04:30 pm

Is there any particular reason he keeps walking into the Wall of Flame? Just because you can take several hitpoints worth of damage without consequence doesn't mean you should.

The wall itself is a fire elemental that is connected to Pyros. Unless I had failed my will save to commune with Pyros, he wont get burned.

Okay, but that still doesn't explain why you keep walking into it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on November 30, 2015, 12:14:27 am

In my current campaign there is a paladin ( paladin/oracle variant multiclassing, but I don't think it has had much effect yet).
Paladins are unbelievably tanky! to the point that the rest of the party went down, and the paladin hadn't been hit yet. To say nothing of he time she ate a 50 hp hit, while already wounded, And next turn was still able to fight and win(lvl 4).

Designing encounters for that will be challenging. At least against non-evil opponents she doesn't get the huge AC boost.
she also has luck with rolls, to the point she is nicknamed (ooc) Luckeria :P


By the way, as the campaign is moving toward less combat, do you have any advice for when designing quests relying on diplomacy, social skills and assoted intrigue? The next arc will be focused on that, but I am not entirely sure I can pull it off well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 30, 2015, 01:14:09 am

Well, it mostly boils down to motivation, when you use diplomacy the important thing is always if someone got what they wanted from an exchange (even a simple question) or not.  When you deal with it in a non-abstracted fashion (minimal dice rolling) you just need to know what the NPC the player/party is dealing with wants, and have them act accordingly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on November 30, 2015, 03:48:16 am

Quote from: Bohandas on November 29, 2015, 06:57:31 pm

Bought copies of Planescape: Torment and the complete Krynn trilogy on Good Old Games a couple of days ago when they were on sale.

Updated my journal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 30, 2015, 09:09:13 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on November 30, 2015, 01:14:09 am

Well, it mostly boils down to motivation, when you use diplomacy the important thing is always if someone got what they wanted from an exchange (even a simple question) or not.  When you deal with it in a non-abstracted fashion (minimal dice rolling) you just need to know what the NPC the player/party is dealing with wants, and have them act accordingly.

This precisely. It's just as with any other story: figure out what motivates the various characters, have them act according to those motivations and their personalities, and allow things to develop from there.

You're already moving in the right direction re: the other issue. If you've got a party with a combat monster who thoroughly outclasses the other PCs, start throwing up problems that can't be resolved well (or possibly even at all) by hitting things until they die or soaking all the damage. If you've got a ranger of some sort, feed them a plot hook that'll lead to something like a brief but interesting session of tracking where they need to hunt down a criminal who fled from the town they're in. If you've got a thief/spy type character of any description, give them something that'll let them do a nice bit of B&E and sneaking about, maybe with a few hidden treasures. If you've got a wizard, maybe feed them something with logic puzzles, tests of arcane knowledge, or something more to the tastes of that particular wizard.

Basically just think of ways you could challenge the party that can be resolved best by one of the party members who isn't specced to never die and kill everything that moves and most of what doesn't, then make sure that they get an appropriate exp and treasure return and that it doesn't drag on for so long that other less-skilled party members feel as out of place as they do in prolonged combat sessions. Unless the group likes getting into combats where most of them are regularly downed or killed. It's all related to what your players want, after all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on November 30, 2015, 09:29:11 am

the ranger of sort  had his chance to track stuff, but failed utterly :P

thanks for the advice. Some of that I already planned for ( although I can't really talk about it because half the players dwell in this forum), but I'll keep everything in mind. Mostly, I'll flesh out a bit more all the characters involved in the next quest.

As for players liking battles in which most of them are downed, I had one of them screaming "make them stronger" all the time :P but the power disparity isn't so big that they felt useless. or at least I hope.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on November 30, 2015, 12:00:17 pm

Good luck, then!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 30, 2015, 02:59:07 pm

Game report:

We got off a ship in the biggest human city.
The human fighter rolled to intimidate the woman who came to greet us, I stabbed a guard to death. I am a shitty paladin.
I jumped in the water to avoid having to kill the other guards, the woman screamed and fell off the dock and drowned in sub-artic harbor.
The rest of the party claimed to have had nothing to do with it.

The party then made a beeline for the marketplace, until they found a merchant selling coffee.
The rogue tried to stab the merchant for his coffee beans and fell face-first into the stand, smashing it under his 7-foot bulk.
The merchant drew twin cutlasses and chased him down the street screaming while everyone else piled beans into sacks.

Meanwhile, I discovered that even if you can breathe underwater, it's very hard to climb a dockside wearing chainmail armor. Eventually I found someone with a crane.

After rejoining the party we ended up at a wizard's stall. The cleric bought a ring which turned out to be cursed, and decked the wizard. It escalated from there.
We only got out alive because the level 16 wizard flubbed all his spells and got decapitated by the frothing barbarian. As a Paladin, I scrupulously didn't see any of the combat, which was spent with my hands over my ears going "LA LA LA LA LA" over the sounds of "HIDEOUS LAUGHTER!" "WHY DOES NOTHING WORK!" MY LEG!".

Then we looted the body (or mutilated in the case of the barbarian) and ran before the town guard showed up to ask why we'd just killed the 400-year old founder of the city.

Meanwhile, the rogue was busy thwarting the GM's attempts to give us quests by murdering everyone as soon as they tried. Eventually he killed the bartender, took over the bar by rite of killing everything in it, then set the booze on fire and hid from the guards in the same tavern as us.

The next morning, I decided I was now official party leader until we got out of the city where fewer civilians would be turned into Johnny Inferno.

tbc

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on November 30, 2015, 03:50:57 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on November 30, 2015, 02:59:07 pm

What.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 30, 2015, 03:54:27 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on November 30, 2015, 03:50:57 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on November 30, 2015, 02:59:07 pm

What.

I posted some art a few weeks back

This is the game we played with that party

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on November 30, 2015, 03:57:15 pm

Your party is very interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Muz on December 01, 2015, 04:49:15 am

Your party sounds like my brother playing D&D. Except that he tries to kill the blacksmith with a level 1 character. It never ends well. At best the character ends up in jail. At worst, town guards slaughter him, and he rolls another character and whines about my sister's character getting so far ahead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Evilsx on December 01, 2015, 06:09:41 am

I want to ask you guys/gals that is there anyway to find D&D or Pathfinder groups quite easy, I been wanting to do Paper RPG and the closest I had any experience is with the 'Forum games'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 01, 2015, 06:21:13 am

Visit your local boardgame or comic store. If they don't host a group of some sort, they'll probably know someone who does.
If you're a uni student, your school will almost certainly have a tabletop club.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Evilsx on December 01, 2015, 06:33:33 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 01, 2015, 06:21:13 am

Visit your local boardgame or comic store. If they don't host a group of some sort, they'll probably know someone who does.
If you're a uni student, your school will almost certainly have a tabletop club.

Ah thanks, there is a boardgame store near where I live, I go check the next time I am there

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 01, 2015, 06:42:47 am

And FG&RP has play by post games, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on December 01, 2015, 07:05:05 am

Cohort character concept:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Arthur, Cleric of Monty
Race: Human
Domains: Madness, Travel
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

(http://orig04.deviantart.net/25ee/f/2015/292/1/c/smite_king_artyr_by_scebiqu-d9dmxgh.jpg)

The cult of Monty is a small faith, mostly overlooked by the larger religious orders as far too silly to be taken seriously. Nevertheless, Arthur strives his best to emulate the values espoused in the Holy Book of Armaments, the definitive religious text of Monty's worshippers. The adventuring life is encouraged among the faithful of Monty, in particular questing after religious artefacts and lost treasures. Those who pursue this lifestyle are said to 'go the full Monty.' In particular, when adventures lead to discovery of vast troves of wealth, it is said that their god has blessed them with good fortune. Such troves of treasure are therefore often referred to as 'Monty's Hauls,' after the inevitable logistical nightmare that proceeds from discovering a thousand pound horde of copper pieces. The holy symbol of the faithful is typically presented as an Ouroboros, a snake consuming its own tail. This symbol represents the eternal cycle of death and resurrection so common among those who adventure to dangerous locations. Since few can pronounce its correct name, though, it's usually simply known as Monty's Python.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 01, 2015, 07:06:48 am

yes
just...
yes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 01, 2015, 11:19:51 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 01, 2015, 07:06:48 am

yes
just...
yes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on December 01, 2015, 01:28:36 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on December 01, 2015, 07:05:05 am

Cohort character concept:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Arthur, Cleric of Monty
Race: Human
Domains: Madness, Travel
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

(http://orig04.deviantart.net/25ee/f/2015/292/1/c/smite_king_artyr_by_scebiqu-d9dmxgh.jpg)

The cult of Monty is a small faith, mostly overlooked by the larger religious orders as far too silly to be taken seriously. Nevertheless, Arthur strives his best to emulate the values espoused in the Holy Book of Armaments, the definitive religious text of Monty's worshippers. The adventuring life is encouraged among the faithful of Monty, in particular questing after religious artefacts and lost treasures. Those who pursue this lifestyle are said to 'go the full Monty.' In particular, when adventures lead to discovery of vast troves of wealth, it is said that their god has blessed them with good fortune. Such troves of treasure are therefore often referred to as 'Monty's Hauls,' after the inevitable logistical nightmare that proceeds from discovering a thousand pound horde of copper pieces. The holy symbol of the faithful is typically presented as an Ouroboros, a snake consuming its own tail. This symbol represents the eternal cycle of death and resurrection so common among those who adventure to dangerous locations. Since few can pronounce its correct name, though, it's usually simply known as Monty's Python.

They are the only church, apart from the baptists, to do respray jobs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 22, 2015, 11:35:21 pm

Been playing a mythic Pathfinder campaign, and have been wondering. What sort of cheese could you pull off with the Human's "Racial Heritage (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Racial%20Heritage)" feat, as well as its mythic version?

There are plenty of humanoid-type races with spectacular abilities. Assuming it means any humanoid-typed-creature, rather than strictly playable ones. Even so, Troll regeneration is at the top of my mind. Or a Drow Noble's spell-like abilities.

Humans are basically the Ditto of most fantasy universes, aren't they?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on December 23, 2015, 01:04:22 am

(Disclaimer, I only know 3.5e but I assume this is all still true)  (EDIT:  Apparently it is not  :o)

That's pretty interesting, but seems to be limited by "humanoid".  Trolls aren't humanoids, at least in 3.5e - they're giants.  Goblins and Drow are humanoid though.  Goblins are *also* "goblinoid", a subclass of "humanoid", and Drow are of the subclass "elf".

I'm afraid you'll find that humanoids, when they have special abilities at all, tend to have underwhelming ones.

A Drow might be interesting, though?  There are a lot of drow-only feats in that Underdark book, though most of them leverage their natural spell-like abilities.  I wonder if all the spell-like abilities counts as one "racial trait", I'd assume so.  Might be more worthwhile to take the spell resistance, though.  It even scales by level which is nice (11+class levels, and you're dodging the level adjustment or whatever Pathfinder does).  Worth two feats?  Maybe not, but you do get to count as a drow for classes and feats.

You also speak Undercommon and Drow (and Elven).  And... at least *access* to Drow Sign Language, which may have interesting applications.  The feat says you get all "racial languages", but Drow Sign Language isn't automatic even for Drow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 23, 2015, 01:10:40 am

In Pathfinder, Giants are a subtype of Humanoids. Caught me by surprise, actually, sine I assumed they were Monstrous Humanoids.

E: Looking through all of the humanoids, there aren't too many abilities that are extremely cheesy outside of specific scenarios.

I'd probably sooner go for flavour over being overly OP anyways, so that doesn't bother me too much. The power level of mythic campaigns are already screwy enough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 23, 2015, 08:15:15 am

Yesterday, we played deendee again.

We started off with me in the woods being chased by dire squirrels (don't ask). Meanwhile , the party assassinated the local blacksmith (the rogue being reduced to 0hp three times in the process) and looted his shop. The rogue critically failed his search roll and tripped into a pile of blades, and was reduced to 0hp a fourth time.

Meanwhile, having killed the dire squirrels, I arrived back in town, just as they finished hiding the evidence by dumping the blacksmith's body in the forge. At this point, the rogue rolls a 1 again and goes back down to 0hp. I Lay On Hands him back to mostly-healed-ville, and we head out (Paladin none the wiser that they murdered a guy.)

The next town over, following a treasure map, the party makes a beeline for the general store. A bunch of party members get thrown out, and then a gigantic brawl breaks out between the shopkeeper and his bodyguard, and the rest of the party (I think he was trying to cheat us on prices?).  The guard went down to sneak attack and being hit in the face, and I leaped the table screaming "REPENT MOTHERFUCKER" and smote the shopkeeper with a mace. He survived, actually, or at least until the dragonborn rogue got bored and just breathed acid over the both of us, melting the shopkeeper and making my magic armor unpleasantly scarred.

The 7 intelligence barbarian then bluffed the town guard that the burning-down shop had been attacked by mystery assailants who weren't us, and we sent them chasing back to the town we came from.

After this, the barbarian picked up a girlfriend at the bar and we went looking for the treasure. We found it buried underneath the tree, and found that the treaure chest contained a safe. We dealt with this by smashing it open and hoping.

Inside was a bunch of money and a necklace. The barbarian gave the necklace to his girlfriend, at which point she started acting by gollum. He tried to use his 16 strength to remove it, but apparently it was unbreakable or something and that ended messily.

We went back to town bar and considered our options while the barbarian and the cleric went to pick up more girls.

While they were doing that I kicked down the door and shouted "COME WITH ME IF YOU WANT TO LIVE" in order to attract a squire (having hit 3rd level and become an actual paladin)

I rolled 20 on the charisma check and a guy with a sword leaped up and pledged alleigance to me on the spot.

then  the fucking rogue stuck his head in the bar and breathed acid on all the other patrons.


We ended it there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on December 24, 2015, 05:23:17 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on December 23, 2015, 08:15:15 am

The barbarian gave the necklace to his girlfriend, at which point she started acting by gollum. He tried to use his 16 strength to remove it, but apparently it was unbreakable or something and that ended messily.

Those three words convey so much. This is why I love tabletop RPGs. Bravo sir, bravo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on December 24, 2015, 05:33:56 am

...Okay so we're playing again.

The DM's modified the AD&D Temple of Elemental Evil to Pathfinder. Sort of. It's kicking my ass, and my ass specifically.

First, my scout-druid gets eaten alive by a giant dire frog. At level 1. But I got better - A druid could reincarnate me. And I came back human!

Then, the very next session, a giant black widow drops on me, and I get poisoned. 4 CON out the window. I want to rest at least some of it off, but the group wants to press on. So we do.

And then we find the next of a Giant King Cobra. Rather, I do. And I get bitten. And it does CON.

I fail all but one save of the 1d3 CON damage. The DM rolls a 3 on the last dice, which would have killed me. But he played nice and rerolled once. He rolls a one, leaving me with 1 CON.

...Thankfully, at this point, we have some potions of Lesser Restoration, and Levelling up heals you like a day of rest. So I managed to get all 14 CON back. FUck, that sucked.

Then, of course, we run into an ogre with a weapon that deals 3d8. Again, no one has over 50 HP. So naturally I'm the one who gets targetted. But I escape through a crack in the wall, and I monkeyfish my way up the wall to get out of his attack range, because I was left with 2 HP. But then the monk threw a few ninja stars at him and he died.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on December 28, 2015, 12:56:23 am

As a Longtooth shifter, I bit into a spectre and attempted to grapple it, pissing off my DM. I also proceeded to throw dynamite (I don't know how it's in a fantasy setting but it is) and blew up a zombie ogre by shoving them inside its exposed innards. And I had 30lbs of dynamite and I have 15lbs left over after the fight, so you can see how much explosive power was used.

I then proceeded to eat this guy's face who was part of this faction my character absolutely hates. I also rescued a puppy from the dungeon crawl and now he's my companion. I'm a Longtooth shifter barbarian who eats people's faces and has a puppy animal companion

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 01, 2016, 10:34:57 pm

Pathfinder. Swarms. To Hell with them. It was stated in the statblock that those damned abyssal vermin were immune to all forms of physical damage. And had 19 Spell Resistance, plus Resist 10 Everything. We were level 6. With only one blaster caster. Ah well, we plowed through it. Took quite a while to do so, however. Then got ambushed in the night by a scorpion demon. Almost killed our Oracle, leaving him exactly at zero after grappling him, dealing grapple damage while holding him in our campfire.

Gained a level, stomped some demon cultists in the Mass Combat section of the Adventure Path. Or rather, our Cavalier did, since no-one else had any ranks in Profession (Soldier).

I tried to take a peacock. Or rather, I took Eldritch Heritage and wanted to give up my first-level ability for a Bloodline Familiar, but the DM decided not to allow the splatbook that rule came from. No blame, but I'm not fond of first-level Bloodline abilities in general. None of the Bloodlines are too useful for me, but I have a high Charisma and have no useful feats to take as a blaster caster. Not that a familiar would be too useful. Until I could take Improved Familiar and grab a Wysp, that is.

Also tried asking about my limits for the Racial Heritage feat. Was told I could choose playable races only, and they had to come from the Advanced Race Guide. Also, no, I was not allowed a Drow Noble. Nor any of the creatures in the back of the book, since they were purely to show what could be made with the book's Race Creation Rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 07, 2016, 05:16:34 am

Help me come up with 101 interesting random wilderness encounters!

Here's what I have so far:

• You find a concealed stone paved road leading off into the wilderness
• You find the remains of another group's campsite
• You see lights in the distance and hear the sound of music and laughter
• You see a swallow tied to a coconut perched in a nearby tree
• A body lays on the ground near a shallow hole with a shovel nearby
• A travelling merchant sits by the side of the road next to a lame donkey
• You see a barn on fire in the distance
• Two men stand next to a wagon with a wheel that’s fallen off
• Three boys are daring each other to climb a nearby structure
• Two men are arguing about what defines good or evil
• There is a toll booth ahead
• An ornate sword is sticking out of the chest of a stone shaped like a monster
• You find the hidden site of a poison maker’s hut
• A trail of bones arranged like arrows points into the wilderness
• You see a tree marked with druidic symbols
• A glowing weapon sits in the centre of a large pond
• A meteor crashes to the ground nearby
• A sinkhole has opened and revealed the entrance to an ancient ruin
• A secluded cabin is filled with undead cats
• You hear crying from the bottom of a well
• A mound with a stone marker that reads “What’s dead is best left buried”
• A half-orc hangs in an iron cage at a crossroads, nearly dead
• The road ahead passes through a well known ambush location
• A young girl claims a witch has her brother and plans to eat him
• A stranger begs you to willingly accept a cursed item

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 07, 2016, 05:41:05 am

26. There's a big pit trap in the middle of the road, and inside it is a crashed wagon and a desperate tax collector.
27. There's a hole in a tree nearby and something very bright is shining out from inside it.
28. There's a literal hole a few metres up in the sky and water is pouring out of it at high speeds.

So many holes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 07, 2016, 08:37:56 am

29. You meet a bear in the woods. She asks you if you've got any food to spare and if you know the way to the nearest town.
30. You encounter an orc fighting a tree with his bare hands, making mild progress. Several of his comrades are cheering him on.
31. An ancient tower leans precipitously over a meander. It ponderously collapses over the next hour, falling into the river piece by piece as it creates a new reef.
32. An elephant wanders the environs, looking out of place and confused.
33. The bottom half of a knight, neatly severed, lies in plain sight, still fresh and warm.
34. A zombie is sinking in quicksand, unable to process its predicament.
35. You kick a small pebble as you move about on your way. The ground starts to emit a progressively rising rumble.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 07, 2016, 09:23:03 am

36. You encounter a farmer tending his honey farm of giant wasps.
37. A bottle full of a shining silver liquid stands on a flat rock placed in the middle of the road.
38. you encounter two swordsmen - one dressed in red, the other in blue - locked in a duel.
39. You encounter the most cruel, foul, and bad-tempered rabbit you ever set eyes on.
40. Coming to a crossroads, you see the silvery figure of a ghostly woman, looking lost and upset.
41. The top half of a knight, neatly severed, lies in plain sight, still fresh and warm.
42.  A young man in a green cap runs past, being chased by a flock of angry chickens.
43. You find the site of a battle - the mud is churned and littered with broken arrows, weapons, and dried blood - but not a single body is in sight.
44. The dark figure of some vast creature crawls towards you from the path ahead before vanishing.
45. kobolds prance around a fire, a man trapped in a nearby wooden cage.
46. You find a grave. Seemingly from the ground, a voice loudly decries the vile traitor that betrayed him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on January 07, 2016, 10:22:19 am

47. A dense mist descends and when it rises a character/valuable item has vanished.
48. You find a tree with disturbing faces carved into it.
49. You find a wandering fey, fresh into their first time on the material plane.
50. You find a trail of treats, strung from trees leading off into the deep forest

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 07, 2016, 12:14:39 pm

51. A boulder slowly rolls across the path, smashing through trees without slowing.  Its wake is perfectly straight, and long.
52. A goblin is climbing trees and debranching them.  It begs for assistance before nightfall.
53. A swarm of ants fills the path ahead, standing perfectly still.
54. A talking frog claims to be cursed, and begs to be taken to a prince for a kiss.
55. A hairy arm thrusts out of the ground, holding a shining battleaxe.
56. An old man sits beside the road, demanding a toll of "one riddle each".
57. At nightfall in a valley, ghostly coral and fish appear.  A glowing ship slowly floats above the path ahead.
58. The sound of clashing weapons is heard off in the trees.  But if approached, it remains equally distant.
59. An unarmed man lies in the road, dying of a sword wound.  He cannot speak, but refuses assistance as best he can.
60. A pillar of light from the full moon appears, touching down nearby.  Chanting can be heard through the trees.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on January 07, 2016, 03:38:55 pm

61: You find a box of 3 magical equipment items; One of them is a great one that gives a major boost in damage. One of them is a "Girdle of Masculinity/Feminity". One of them is cursed and turns the wearer Chaotic Evil until it is removed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 07, 2016, 04:38:28 pm

62: You run into an old man in a cottage. He has dryads to help him tend his garden and he has a bit of a bug problem he wants you to help him with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 07, 2016, 04:53:16 pm

63. You come across a lake/pond/river. On the other side is a bear that appears to be made of some sort of roots. As it's swimming through the water towards you, you notice that the root bear floats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 07, 2016, 05:09:20 pm

I've actually seen something similar to the dryad garden in a Pathfinder adventure path before.

64. You come across a Wizard on the road, arguing with their Familiar. Alternatively, a Druid and their Animal Companion. Or a Necromancer and an Intelligent Undead.

65. As you walk along the forest road, you begin to notice that colours, sounds, smells, and tastes are becoming much more vivid.

66. You hear what sounds like talking in the distance. As you approach, you see a number of woodland animals straining to comprehend their newfound intelligence.

67. The trees of this area seem peculiar to you. As you approach one to investigate, you realize that you have really been walking past the legs of giant creatures for the last half-mile.

68. You come across a man claiming to be a priest of a deity you have never heard of, asking for your assistance. Unknown to you, his powers are arcane in nature.

69. Thinly veiled innuendo.

70. The trees of this area seem peculiar to you. They appear to have thick vines hanging down each of their branches. As you approach, you realize that they are in fact the incredibly long arms of Moss Trolls. Seems you have stumbled upon a clan's territory. Luckily, they are currently asleep.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dutrius on January 07, 2016, 06:10:01 pm

71. The weather becomes unpleasantly unseasonable.
72. A tree trips you over with a root, by accident.
73. A tree trips you over with a root, on purpose. It obviously grew that root in just that way for the sole purpose of tripping you over.
74. You spy an old man lying by the side of the road. He tells you that he was robbed by bandits, who stole his wheelchair. If you refuse to get it for him, he gets up, hits you with a stick and wanders off, muttering about the youth of today not respecting their elders, before falling over again because he's supposed to be in a wheelchair.
75. You have an uncomfortable feeling of being watched. You look around, but see nothing. Wait, did that pebble just wink at you?
76. You spot in the distance a man on horseback, clad completely in black with a long cloak. Although it is a breezy day, his cloak does not seem to move in the wind.
77. Suddenly, and very scarily, absolutely nothing interesting happens, throwing you completely off guard.
78. A shifty looking man sidles towards you and offers to sell you some cheap, "quality" magical artifacts from a totally legit source.
79. You spot a stairway carved into the side of a hill/mountainside/cliff leading up to a natural looking cave. As you watch, you see a metallic spring fall down the stairs.
80. A band of well dressed bandits accost you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 08, 2016, 04:37:53 am

I made it up, haha. It was Hades. The bugs were giant bombardier beetles. He was a cool old guy who gave the group Coinpurses of Holding. Held 100,000 of each coin and weighed only a pound.

81. There is a large oak tree in the middle of the road ahead. In front of it is a picnic table with room enough to sit the party and no more, along with an assortment of food.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 08, 2016, 06:29:58 am

Quote from: Gentlefish on January 08, 2016, 04:37:53 am

I made it up, haha. It was Hades. The bugs were giant bombardier beetles. He was a cool old guy who gave the group Coinpurses of Holding. Held 100,000 of each coin and weighed only a pound.

Does it also sort them or do you risk having to rassle through 200 000 silver and copper coins to find that one gold coin in the bottom?

82. A garishly robed Wood Elf falls to his death from the sky.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 08, 2016, 07:10:12 am

Quote from: scriver on January 08, 2016, 06:29:58 am

82. A garishly robed Wood Elf falls to his death from the sky.

Followed by a human, a dwarf, and an orc who had Scrolls of Feather Fall, and a dragon. 
</badjokereference>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 08, 2016, 07:21:59 pm

It sorted them like a Haversack. You got what you wanted out of it.

83. There's a giant constrictor snake in the middle of the road, and someone (or something) is inside it, screaming for help.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dutrius on January 08, 2016, 08:27:59 pm

84. While crossing a bridge, a troll leaps up and demands you pay a toll.
85. As above, but while the troll distracts you, another one sneaks up behind you and ties your shoe laces together.
86. You come across an elf engaged in a staring contest with a patch of nettles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on January 09, 2016, 07:06:14 am

Anyone willing to pick apart this lore I have written so far. Its far from finished, but its got most of the key points in it as far as I am concerned. As its not detailed Lore, more like almost forgotten lore. Mainly looking to see if its parts make sense or, no sense...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

~-~-~-\\The Lore of the World//-~-~-~

Over a millennium ago, Asmara was that of a highly advanced world. The use of Magical inventions allowed the people to live a calm and free lifestyle with a ease of life attitude. Their cities glowed like firebugs through the night, distances that would have taken them days or even weeks could be covered in a few hours or half a day. Even the great seas presented little of a obstacle to the people. For the people of Asmara, life couldn't get any easier. But that began to change. At first it was small things, such as the lightposts that lined the roads flickering and dying during the nights, then it grew to things such as tools and items seeming to fail to activate or just grow dull and void of any magical energy. Then the Great Chariots wouldn't move and the Great Birds refused to fly. The Magic of the world was disappearing...

The Great Mages of Asmara attempted to reignite the source of their powers, with little to no success. All that ignited was that of their tower and library, a giant fireball that consumed all that was known in the ways of magic and with it many of the men and women who possessed that knowledge. Their attempt to rekindle magic had backfired and with it, a ripple spread out across the world. Magic all but died that day, and so did all communication to that of the Gods. The timing was perfect, to perfect to be considered separate events. With even access to the Gods cut off from the people, panic began. Hatred towards Magic Users rose unaccounted and those that didn't hide were tortured or killed outright. Anger and Hate destroyed their carefree life of highly advanced tools and constructions. Leaders fled or withdrew from the public in an attempt to keep what power they held while the people below them struggled to survive in a new dark world. Filled once again with the unknown and monsters...

Time moved forward and life adapted. The Anger and Hate towards that of the Magic Users was all but forgotten and had transformed into Fear and Wonder. Their skin now tattooed with blue lines that traced over their bodies like a spiders web. When they brought forth their powers it was to people that no longer understood its meaning. Magic was a foreign wonder now, something that was beyond the normal folk. They had adapted to the new world by turning back time. Back to the Darker ages where man tilled his own land and Horses were the mode of travel and once again the Great Seas were an obstacle to all but the sturdiest of ships. With some of the greatest knowledge lost many many years ago, things were left to be rediscovered. And the strength of a man's arm could earn him a life of combat and riches...

But even then, the Gods had remained silent. Of the great Pantheon that guided the people, not a single voice could be heard through their dreams or prayers. To those that wanted to believe, they found nothing to believe in. No miracles of healing or marvel of divine presence. The people of Asmara were alone. Or so they thought. Like a bright star shining in an empty sky, 'The Maker' came to them. Those gifted with the ability to communicate with 'The Maker' stepped forward and brought hope and security to the people. His churches rose around the world and brought the warmth of his divine powers and healing to the sick and lost...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 09, 2016, 11:50:15 am

Sounds good.
Why does that end with an ellipsis, though?  It sounds like there's supposed to be an "Or do they?" in there...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 09, 2016, 01:31:16 pm

I think it's implied.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 09, 2016, 04:25:20 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 09, 2016, 01:31:16 pm

I think it's implied.

I'm checking, because I don't know whether it's supposed to be or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 09, 2016, 04:34:37 pm

Then maybe that's the main plot line?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 09, 2016, 06:08:18 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 09, 2016, 04:34:37 pm

Then maybe that's the main plot line?

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 09, 2016, 04:25:20 pm

I'm checking, because I don't know whether it's supposed to be or not.

As a writer, not as a player.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on January 09, 2016, 09:43:25 pm

Personal Habit...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 09, 2016, 09:44:33 pm

Quote from: Neyvn on January 09, 2016, 09:43:25 pm

Personal Habit... or is it?

ftfy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on January 09, 2016, 09:55:29 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 09, 2016, 09:44:33 pm

Quote from: Neyvn on January 09, 2016, 09:43:25 pm

Personal Habit... or is it?

ftfy

No. No its not. :P
Its an odd habit formed from the way I speak IRL and how my mind fills in the words as I type, the long gaps I leave between thoughts or statements with vocal communication also get filled into text communication. I irritate a few people, but if you look at how I type and where they appear, its very much at the end of a post or a paragraph where I move onto a different statement or line of thought...

Unless a emoji is included, then they take the spot of it cause, well, can't pause when you stick your tongue out can ya. ^_^

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 09, 2016, 10:08:45 pm

Well yeah, I ellipsis too...But it shouldn't be in a lore document, which is presumably written in a book style that doesn't like ellipses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 09, 2016, 10:33:53 pm

Another level and Mythic Tier gained. Took quite a bit to earn it.

First we took a major bridge in the city we had besieged. Half the party went along the dried riverbed the bridge overlooked, to prevent the enemy from demolishing the supports while our army tried to cross. Then we went to the top of walls of the citadel, destroying the catapults that were above.

After destroying two of them, we heard a roar and were assaulted by a Red Dragon. It was a CR 15 encounter, even though we were only level 7. It had two initiatives, allowing it two turns a round. It never landed, and only one of our party had a ranged weapon with enough reach to actually hit the thing, even at its closest. It killed two people, one of whom was squishy and being stupid by flying right up into its face.

The Adventure Path called for a Chimera to come down, and specified that the Chimera would only fight in melee. But that would have been way too easy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 10, 2016, 10:23:33 am

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 09, 2016, 11:50:15 am

Sounds good.
Why does that end with an ellipsis, though?  It sounds like there's supposed to be an "Or do they?" in there...

Yeah, that part reminded me ot the Theft of The World by Tiamat in Dragonlance

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 11, 2016, 12:16:30 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 07, 2016, 05:16:34 am

Help me come up with 101 interesting random wilderness encounters!

87.) A pack of wolves is eating a recently killed deer. They won't bother you if you don't bother them.
88.) Some wizard's cat familiar is in heat and trying to feed an aphrodesiac to a much larger wild cat like a lynx or a bobcat or an ocelot or something
89.) Two elves seem to be playing a boardgame in a clearing, except that on closer inspection - and despite the fact that thir game seems to be progressing - they never seem to actually move any of the pieces.
90.) An enormous swarm of panicked rats or snakes or other small animals scurries past going in the other direction
91.) A raven pecks at a corpse by the side of the path
92.) Shrines to two rival deities are located a short distance from one another along the path (really two seperate encounters, I guess). Both have been defaced.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on January 11, 2016, 04:42:08 am

Hey guys. Another Pick me apart lore bit...

This is about the Races that are not PC choices. So far I have only finished the Gnome and Dragonborn races. Dwarf (Dweorse) and Elves are coming...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The People that call Asmara home are a very complicated bunch. In the far past there were many Magical and Fantastical Creatures that were once major players over the world, but after the Magical Drain that occurred, many either disappeared entirely or have become a thin shadow of their former selves...

The Gnomes, protectors of the Forests, they once lived deep within some of the most magical forests, said to be made of Mana in all manners of the word. They sometimes appeared within villages or towns selling herbs and salves of great power that allowed a wound to heal without scaring or a single berry that could substitute for a days meal. When the Drain came, they returned to their Forests, an attempt to preserve their homes they claimed. And when the Forests themselves failed to survive, the existence of Gnomes became nothing more then Folklore...

The Dragonborn, creatures of Mana themselves, they were the greatest wielder of Magic. They were the first to invent and use Magic in the way of advancement for the world, their knowledge allowing them to create things that were out worldly and even more fantastical then the magic they wielded themselves. But when the Drain came, they suffered the most. Unlike the Gnomes before them, they had nowhere to retreat to, nor did they disappear. With their Magics draining from them in great amounts, they turned from the greatest to the poorest. Nowdays, seeing a Dragonborn is little more then seeing someone on their last legs, curled up in the corners of Cities, struggling to survive...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 12, 2016, 03:39:30 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 07, 2016, 05:16:34 am

Help me come up with 101 interesting random wilderness encounters!

93.) A boat is half buried in the dirt far from any body of water

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on January 12, 2016, 04:11:57 pm

94.)A boat is half buried in the side of a building, no one who lives around it seems to notice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 12, 2016, 07:12:43 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 12, 2016, 03:39:30 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 07, 2016, 05:16:34 am

Help me come up with 101 interesting random wilderness encounters!

93.) A boat is half buried in the dirt far from any body of water

Alternatively:
95) The party spots a ship sailing across the sky, using clouds as "waves".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 12, 2016, 07:19:26 pm

97. They meet a friendly troll in full plate, who is questing to become a knight of justice. The troll asks them if they've seen any fearsome beasts it could slay.
98. You encounter a hunting party carrying the body of a tremendous dire boar
99. You discover a wizard's tower. In the basement are a dozen locked cages containing strange creatures, and a open single cage. The wizard is nowhere to be seen.
100. With a very loud bang, a large chest containing a living halfling appears. The halfing is glad to be freed from inside, and gives the party a choice between two pouches.

And I'll let someone else cap it off. Make it a good one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 12, 2016, 07:22:37 pm

101. The party stumbles across another party. Made up of dopplegangers of themselves. Claiming that they're the real ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on January 12, 2016, 07:23:18 pm

Quote from: FallacyofUrist on January 12, 2016, 07:22:37 pm

101. The party stumbles across another party. Made up of dopplegangers of themselves. Claiming that they're the real ones.

101b: Flip a coin. On a tails, the dopplegangers are telling the truth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 12, 2016, 07:34:58 pm

That was fun guys, and really creative.  If I get some more time I'll compile those and add them to the OP.  Added to the OP, with credits to the participants.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 12, 2016, 08:44:27 pm

Quote from: Sirus on January 12, 2016, 07:12:43 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 12, 2016, 03:39:30 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 07, 2016, 05:16:34 am

Help me come up with 101 interesting random wilderness encounters!

93.) A boat is half buried in the dirt far from any body of water

Alternatively:
95) The party spots a ship sailing across the sky, using clouds as "waves".

95b. It's a clear sky.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sensei on January 13, 2016, 01:08:55 am

102.) The party encounters a camp of shifty figures, selling stolen goods for cheap. They're pretty open about stuff being stolen. If something has been stolen from the party recently, they can buy it here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 13, 2016, 01:17:34 am

103.) Forest fire
104.) Flash flood
105.) Mud slide
106.) Windstorm
107.) Harmless but odd magically altered wildlife; small animals with odd appearances cantrips or orisons as 1/minute spell-like abilities. maybe faintly glowing squirrels moving nuts around with Mage Hand.
108.) 2 wizards in a non lethal brawl
109.) Low level and/or npc class spellcaster members of one of the almost-fey humanoid races (ie. elves, gnomes, etc.) - or perhaps actual fey - hidden by the side of the road try to magically prank or telekinetically pickpocket (or putpocket) the PCs without their knowledge

EDIT:
110.) Elves are running an unlicensed gambling den in the treetops
111.) An itinerant priest of Olidammara (or a similar deity ) tags along for a while and gives an impassioned but rambling sermon including phrases like "off the chain", "kickin it oldschool", "keep your pimp hand strong" and "smoke weed every day"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 13, 2016, 01:33:02 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on January 12, 2016, 07:34:58 pm

That was fun guys, and really creative.  If I get some more time I'll compile those and add them to the OP.  Added to the OP, with credits to the participants.

One thing to bring up about that though: they were wildreness encounters, not adventure ideas

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 13, 2016, 05:41:49 am

In that case sirs and ladies, help me come up with 101 interesting random city encounters!

Here's what I have so far:

• A woman calls out for help from a nearby alley
• A group of conjurers are holding a summoned monster fighting tournament
• A street urchin bumps against you and then scurries away
• Someone has let loose greased pigs in the building
• There’s a one day sale at a local merchant’s shop
• Three tough guys show up to squeeze a business owner for protection money
• A young man walks through the street completely naked and demands your pants
• A bard is offering a purse to anyone who can outperform him
• A group of men are bullying a nobleman and his boyfriend
• A drunk asks you to take him to the nearest brothel
• An angry mob starts throwing tomatoes at you
• You spot three city guard attempting to break into a building
• You see a mailman staring in terror at a large dog behind a fence
• Smoke appears to be coming from the sewer
• A fat man appears to be having a heart attack
• You encounter a sleepwalker climbing into bed with you
• A man pulls a woman with a black eye down the street by her hair
• An alchemist is offering rewards for test subjects
• You are challenged to a drinking/arm-wrestling/knife-throwing competition
• You receive an invitation to a nobleman’s ball
• You’re offered the secrets of immortality in exchange for one of your fingers
• You witness a blind beggar trying to commit suicide
• A sculptor begs you to become his model for a statue
• A gang is painting racist graffiti on a nearby building
• You’re asked to tell the story of the first monster you ever killed

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Avis-Mergulus on January 13, 2016, 06:38:38 am

Has anybody here ever tried to roleplay a legit mute character? How did/would you go about it?
I tried grunts, gestures and writing crookedly on paper for all of a half-hour, and then reverted to bullshit like 'through his awesome pantomime skills, Franz communicates this ridiculously complicated idea in minute detail', only using less cheaty methods for flavor.

E: Sir Bearington doesn't count. He's a distinguished gentleman who can speak, as we all know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 13, 2016, 07:06:31 am

26. You come upon a very stressed and severely overworked troll below a heavy-trafficked city bridge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 13, 2016, 07:08:57 am

27) A man with a crooked smile sidles up to you and offers information of any kind, within limits, for a 'mere pittance of your memories'.
28) A group comes into the establishment you reside in, and claim credit for your deeds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 13, 2016, 08:13:39 am

29) You see a gang of local toughs negotiating firefighting fees with the owner of a burning building.
30) An unhinged clerk is throwing stationery out of the windows of a nearby office, yelling something about being 'done'.
31) A heavily armed thug asks if you would like to see her private zoo for a nominal fee.
32) A speeding chariot crashes violently into a nearby storefront.
33) A beggar is sneaking up on a pigeon with a crudely sharpened stick.
34) Two merchants from opposing storefronts accost you, trying to one-up each other's discounts for your exclusive patronage.
35) An extremely foreign group of adventurers confuse you for local prostitutes.
36) A nearby man is set upon by a host of ravenous sparrows.
37) A nobleman, his lady friend and a well-armed bodyguard are having a picnic on a nearby rooftop, heckling the scruffier passersby.
38) A gaggle of drunken sailors would like to discuss philosophy.
39) You see a wizard's apprentice in the distance, trying to fight off a coordinated assault by crows looking to steal some of her freshly bought magical items.
40) A wizard is demolishing a foreboding old house in a methodical, controlled fashion. He looks bored.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on January 13, 2016, 08:27:22 am

Quote from: Avis-Mergulus on January 13, 2016, 06:38:38 am

Has anybody here ever tried to roleplay a legit mute character? How did/would you go about it?
I tried grunts, gestures and writing crookedly on paper for all of a half-hour, and then reverted to bullshit like 'through his awesome pantomime skills, Franz communicates this ridiculously complicated idea in minute detail', only using less cheaty methods for flavor.

E: Sir Bearington doesn't count. He's a distinguished gentleman who can speak, as we all know.

A guy I played with a couple of times played a deep dwarf that refused to speak to outsiders. I think he passed notes of anything he wanted to say to the guy playing his brother (symbolising muttering in another language), who would then read them out. If there's someone who knows sign language in the party, you could do that. If there isn't, well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 13, 2016, 08:38:23 am

Quote from: Avis-Mergulus on January 13, 2016, 06:38:38 am

Has anybody here ever tried to roleplay a legit mute character? How did/would you go about it?
I tried grunts, gestures and writing crookedly on paper for all of a half-hour, and then reverted to bullshit like 'through his awesome pantomime skills, Franz communicates this ridiculously complicated idea in minute detail', only using less cheaty methods for flavor.

E: Sir Bearington doesn't count. He's a distinguished gentleman who can speak, as we all know.

One of my players is playing a mute, it's not really an issue since he and another player made their characters know each other before the game started and so they both know sign language. Although it gets sorta funny because the character who can talk is... Sorta intense, almost abusive (she treats the mute as her doll almost sometimes, dressing her up and even tattooing her... Er, although they are magical tattoos so it's not like, that bad) and she doesn't always translate 100% faithfully.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on January 13, 2016, 09:44:02 am

Urban encounters:

41) A resident on an upper floor empties a chamber pot over the party.
42) A doomsayer is spreading tales of the apocalypse to a large crowd.
43) A beggar jumps out of a nearby sewer grate screaming about crocodiles.
44) A figure sits on a rooftop, playing sweet music on an ornate flute.
45) You come across an unsigned contract for a lucrative deal, lying discarded in a gutter.
46) A brewer is searching for rare ingredients for a special brew.
47) You come across a lost looking druid.
48) You come across an inn with a freshly painted sign - it has been named after the party or one of its members.
49) You notice a miniature city in the shadows of a mage's house. It is perfectly sized for vermin.
50) A nervous wizard walks by, muttering about dried frog pills and hallucinating that he is sane.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 13, 2016, 10:42:51 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 13, 2016, 01:33:02 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on January 12, 2016, 07:34:58 pm

That was fun guys, and really creative.  If I get some more time I'll compile those and add them to the OP.  Added to the OP, with credits to the participants.

One thing to bring up about that though: they were wildreness encounters, not adventure ideas

Adjusted.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 13, 2016, 12:33:58 pm

Quote from: Arx on January 13, 2016, 08:27:22 am

Quote from: Avis-Mergulus on January 13, 2016, 06:38:38 am

Has anybody here ever tried to roleplay a legit mute character? How did/would you go about it?
I tried grunts, gestures and writing crookedly on paper for all of a half-hour, and then reverted to bullshit like 'through his awesome pantomime skills, Franz communicates this ridiculously complicated idea in minute detail', only using less cheaty methods for flavor.

E: Sir Bearington doesn't count. He's a distinguished gentleman who can speak, as we all know.

A guy I played with a couple of times played a deep dwarf that refused to speak to outsiders. I think he passed notes of anything he wanted to say to the guy playing his brother (symbolising muttering in another language), who would then read them out. If there's someone who knows sign language in the party, you could do that. If there isn't, well.

Read this as "refused to speak to angels and demons".  And elementals I think?

I played a mute character briefly.  It didn't work particularly well since there were only three player characters, and my previous character had sorta kinda been the leader.  In that I kept track of the quests, and reminded the others about what we were originally there to do.

I say sorta kinda because my character (blaster cleric) was just as reckless as the wizard, and responsible for almost half the burnt taverns (literally.  We kept a COUNT on our wiki).  So it was often the barbearian (sic) who would reign in our magic experiments, and then my character would recall the actual mission from his copious notes.

So, my mute character...  Was going for something different.  A mute melee dervish with issues, kinda like a River Tam situation.  This did not work well, since the others kinda did rely on me to track the quests.  So the PCs kept stalling in important NPC conversations as we dropped into OOC for reminders.

Oh dang, I almost forgot that she wasn't supposed to be a PC at all, just a cohort for my new bard character who was designed to know *even more about everything* and be a perfect vessel for my OOC knowledge.  But the RNG fucked him *hard*.  First he got sent to the shadow plane within minutes of being introduced thanks to our traditional game of "drink the unidentified potions".  I swear I am not making this up.  He managed to come back from that, just in time to get killed in his sleep by a lich rage mage (first combat encounter he ever saw).  Chain lightning, he wasn't even targeted specifically.

And when we went to reincarnate him, using our special !!FUN!! table, the RNG rolled a tarrasque.  Odds about 1/500 IIRC.  So yeah that  didn't work out...  I later came up with an in-rules way to undo the reincarnation (true resurrection I think?) but the DM didn't think it would work.

So instead of a walking library with support spells, I had to play as a mute feral elf cannibal melee character.  Who later became a drow, then reincarnated as a very specific type of demon, because apparently the Laughing God rolled our dice.

Months later I realized that my first character had freedom of movement and couldn't have ended the way he did (paralyzed by a lich for days, while under a nosleep curse, went insane because he couldn't cast restoration).  It's cool though, he made a decent recurring boss.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 13, 2016, 02:07:15 pm

Urban Encounter:

51 ) The guards are looking for a serial flasher who happens to resemble one of your party members. They confront you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on January 13, 2016, 02:33:37 pm

Does anybody have any particular suggestions for an archer build (from level one) in Pathfinder? I'm thinking human fighter with point-blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot, but I'm not sure.

The particular campaign also has a meta goal of exploring the combat system to as full an extent as possible, which I guess is partly why I'm posting here instead of going for a basic set up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on January 13, 2016, 03:43:52 pm

Addendum to 51b: That result is based on a coin flip if they have not exhibited multiple personalities before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dutrius on January 13, 2016, 04:13:37 pm

52. A large sinkhole opens up, swallowing up a (Insert Building Here).
53. You spot a door in a wall that you swear wasn't there the night before.
54. A magical flying boat flies into the side of a tall building and explodes.
55. A major road is blocked by someone attempting to herd a bunch of cats.
56. A gang of youths turn over a wagon and set it on fire, while loudly denouncing the city guards.
57. A beggar tells you that the Nobility are hiring alchemists to dump mind control agents in the water supply, and that he's immune because he only drinks ale.
58. You see a large blue fire with green smoke. The alchemist's guild has caught fire. Again.
59. A loud concussive blast breaks all the windows in the street. The alchemist's guild has exploded. Again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 13, 2016, 05:07:10 pm

60.) You encounter a suspiciously fat beggar

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 13, 2016, 05:18:20 pm

Quote from: Arx on January 13, 2016, 02:33:37 pm

Does anybody have any particular suggestions for an archer build (from level one) in Pathfinder? I'm thinking human fighter with point-blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot, but I'm not sure.

The particular campaign also has a meta goal of exploring the combat system to as full an extent as possible, which I guess is partly why I'm posting here instead of going for a basic set up.

Honestly, in Pathfinder, Fighter is the best way to build a straight archer. Deadly Aim would be a good next feat (or whenever possible to take) - it's the ranged equivalent of Power Attack.

If you were to go Sniper, here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mjf6?Sniper-Rogue-Build) is a pretty viable build, so long, as noted, you have a fighter who can consistently leave an opponent flat-footed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 13, 2016, 07:12:52 pm

I tried the Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/archer) archetype for the fighter once. Going without an archetype is better, I think. Especially with the new Advanced Weapon Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training) abilities, if your DM allows it.

General progression is to get the almighty Precise Shot ASAP, which requires Point Blank Shot. Once you are able, grab Improved Precise Shot to ignore partial concealment and partial cover. Point Blank Master stops you from provoking attacks of opportunity in melee when you use your bow.

Also of note is Rapid Shot and Manyshot, for more arrows per turn. Cluster Shot so that all your arrows only apply against Damage Reduction once. The Snap Shot line of feats allows you to threaten squares adjacent to you. First only those directly adjacent to your square, then you threaten out to ten feet. Or fifteen, depending on whether your DM uses the nerfed version of not.

There's probably more feats I'm forgetting. Other than Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, I can't think of any.

Some people also swear by the Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) archetype for the Monk, but you will have to balance your Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, so it would depend on your stats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 13, 2016, 09:14:51 pm

61)There is a rain of small bits of wood and stone.
The Alchemists' Guild has exploded.  The surrounding area.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on January 13, 2016, 09:16:35 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 13, 2016, 09:14:51 pm

61)There is a rain of small bits of wood and stone and a few unidentifiable fluids.
The Alchemists' Guild has exploded. The surrounding area. Again.

FTFW.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 13, 2016, 11:03:38 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 13, 2016, 05:41:49 am

In that case sirs and ladies, help me come up with 101 interesting random city encounters!

62.) Rioters!
63.) Bad street preformer is actually illusion created by very good street preformer
64.) Followers of Olidammara or similar deity of rogues and thieves tossing contraband and stolen cash down to greedy cheering crowd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 13, 2016, 11:49:42 pm

65.)  A wiry fellow is selling oils extracted from various exotic snakes and even serpentine monsters from the back of a covered wagon.  He claims they have medicinal benefits, or even magical ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 14, 2016, 12:39:04 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 13, 2016, 07:12:52 pm

I tried the Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/archer) archetype for the fighter once. Going without an archetype is better, I think. Especially with the new Advanced Weapon Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training) abilities, if your DM allows it.

General progression is to get the almighty Precise Shot ASAP, which requires Point Blank Shot. Once you are able, grab Improved Precise Shot to ignore partial concealment and partial cover. Point Blank Master stops you from provoking attacks of opportunity in melee when you use your bow.

Also of note is Rapid Shot and Manyshot, for more arrows per turn. Cluster Shot so that all your arrows only apply against Damage Reduction once. The Snap Shot line of feats allows you to threaten squares adjacent to you. First only those directly adjacent to your square, then you threaten out to ten feet. Or fifteen, depending on whether your DM uses the nerfed version of not.

There's probably more feats I'm forgetting. Other than Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, I can't think of any.

Some people also swear by the Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) archetype for the Monk, but you will have to balance your Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, so it would depend on your stats.

I briefly played a ZAM once and it was a hoot. IIRC the first shot that character ever fired was a hit... on an invisible faerie dragon on the other side of a cloud of fog. The circumstances of that are rather vague in my memory, but it certainly made for good flavor. You can pull off cool tricks even at relatively low levels and once you get going you've got a lot of stuff in your bag. Flurry with your bow, a delicious selection of bonus feats, free Perfect Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/perfect-strike-combat) at 1st level (and an upgrade to roll-3 pick-highest at 10th level), free Weapon Focus + Specialization & Point Blank Master.

Also, you technically only need STR and WIS. A little DEX never hurt anyone, of course, but at 3rd level ZAMs get to start using their WIS instead of their DEX for attacks with bows. ZAMs also get Ki tricks to increase range increment and increase damage die size, and later to ignore concealment/cover to the point of firing arrows around 90-degree corners as well as applying ki attacks with his bow. At 9th, they can make AOOs with bows as well.

Basically the ZAM takes all of the useless and semi-useless fluff in the Monk level progression and replaces it with a bunch of free good feats and class features designed to make it lethal, versatile, and fun to play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 14, 2016, 12:43:22 am

Note to self: try a ZAM next Pathfinder game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on January 14, 2016, 01:03:52 am

I've never liked monks (either the flavour or the cunch), but that looks like a ton of fun. Hmm. Choices, choices.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on January 14, 2016, 01:11:44 am

That thing with the invisible fairy dragon was a combination of a natural 20 on attack and a good roll against concealment.

Still awesome for both players and characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 14, 2016, 01:52:51 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 13, 2016, 05:41:49 am

In that case sirs and ladies, help me come up with 101 interesting random city encounters!

66.) Security checkpoint. Due to recent disturbances guards, some using goggles of minute seeing, are checking anyone wishing to pass into the adjacent part of he city for contraband
67.) Open air market. Two vendors of the same kind of produce set up near to each other and the competition between them becomes increasingly contentious
68.) The guild of locksmiths have locked themselves out of their headquarters

Quote from: Dutrius on January 13, 2016, 04:13:37 pm

59. A loud concussive blast breaks all the windows in the street. The alchemist's guild has exploded. Again.

69.) The wizards' guild has accidentally teleported their headquarters into the middle of the street. Again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 14, 2016, 01:57:17 am

70 ) Disciples of a local cult have set up a stand on some busy corner, loudly preaching about their chosen object of worship and accosting passers-by. They use lots of Insane Troll Logic to try and win converts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 14, 2016, 02:15:38 am

71 )  The group witnesses a young mage performing small illusions in front of a crowd of amazed children and adults alike, the show continues for around half an hour, before the mage finishes with a dazzling lightshow, and tells the audience to come back next week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 14, 2016, 02:19:18 am

72.) A wizard's familiar is carrying a bag of coins in its mouth and attempting to communicate to a livestock dealer that it would like to purchase all the females of the familiar's species the dealer has

EDIT:

73.) A cutpurse tries to rob you
74.) Someone is being dragged off by the city watch. He complains of "the violence inherent in the system"

EDIT:

75.) City watchmen mistake one of the party members for a wanted felon
76.) To raise funds the city has sent the watch to shake people down and fine them for laws that are obscure or aren't usually otherwise fully enforced. The party may lose some gold for having too many of the wrong kind of weapons carried in the wrong way on the wrong day of the week.

EDIT:

77.) You enter a street covered in so much garbage that the street itself is not visible

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 14, 2016, 06:06:21 am

78.)The Wizards' Guild has inverted their building.  Again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on January 14, 2016, 06:45:33 am

79.) The Wizard's Guild has turned the entire populace into bloodthirsty demonhosts. Again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 14, 2016, 06:46:20 am

Guuuuyys, no making mini memes.
Again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on January 14, 2016, 06:47:24 am

80) You stumble across a gang war between a wizard-only gang, a sorcerer-only gang, and a warlock-only gang. Confusing any with any of the others leads to them all attacking the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 14, 2016, 06:48:03 am

81.)The Wizards' Guild have stopped time over the town.  Again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on January 14, 2016, 06:51:55 am

82.) A strange cult worshipping a deity known only as 'grisha5' attempt to take the party captive as live sacrifices.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 14, 2016, 06:56:39 am

83.)A strange cult, worshipping a deity known only as IamanElfCollaborator are 'shipping' the town the party is in.

84.)The party encounters a strange temple with lots of wagons rolling through it.  The priests, if asked,, say that this is a temple to Sirus, patron deity of professional wagoners.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 14, 2016, 07:09:35 am

85) Snowball fight! Except instead of kids, it's alchemists. And instead of snowballs, it's flasks of acid and alchemist's fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: birdy51 on January 14, 2016, 08:58:18 am

86) The Fighter's Guild's arms have begun to mysteriously rust under unknown circumstances, forcing them to take up beautiful, but terribly inefficient substitute gold weaponry.
87) The Fighter's Guild has become tired of the Wizard's Guild and the Alchemist's Guild's repeated crimes against the city and are privately recruiting for a subtle group of dubious adventurers to plot poetic revenge for their magical trangressions.
88) Bring your cult to work day.
89) Two long-time rival town criers are vying for supremacy over the other.
90) Silly hat day descends upon the town. All persons found outside without wearing a silly hat shall be sent to the stockade and pelted repeatedly with potatoes until a proper silly hat has been procured.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 14, 2016, 09:01:15 am

91) A completely empty house. Nobody knows anything about it. It's built over a cave that's very deep. There isn't a single enemy inside except a golden dragon. The dragon gives the party one gold coin and doesn't speak to them at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 14, 2016, 09:31:56 am

92) The party comes across a man in a wizard's hat and robe crying on the side of the road. He asks the party to find a way to get him his virginity back otherwise the other wizards otherwise the wizards won't let him back in and they will call him mean things on the crystal ball messageboards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 14, 2016, 09:38:04 am

93) The party then comes across a promiscuous female bandit proudly boasting that she has stolen a wizard's virginity.
She proceeds to produce a staff emblazoned with the word "Virginity" and shows it off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 14, 2016, 09:57:27 am

94) A hole in the nearest wall appears. A number of priests of [RELIGION] step out and begin chanting. Flip a coin. On tails, they're actually cultists of [DEMON].
95) The Wizard's Guild has abducted a member of the party to use as a test subject. Again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dutrius on January 14, 2016, 01:03:44 pm

96. A youth staring at a magical slate while walking trips over something/falls into a hole in the road/gets hit by a fast moving cart/walks into a guard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 14, 2016, 01:11:57 pm

97 ) A child chases a puppy/ball into the street, directly into the path of a speeding carriage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 14, 2016, 01:22:54 pm

98) A member of the party gets hit by a carriage. Flip a coin. On a heads, it was intentional.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 14, 2016, 02:00:25 pm

99. A drunken man is riding a panicked pig down the street. The pig is, strangely, screaming for him to get off in clear Common.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 14, 2016, 02:04:19 pm

100) A local magistrate's carriage explodes as he is walking toward it from his house.
101) You see a carriage speeding down the street in your direction. Shrouded figures all wearing robes of the same color lean out the sides, brandishing wands of fire.
102) Two gangs of local toughs, numbering about three dozen on each side, seem to be about to initiate combat in the streets, though neither side appears to be quite up to charging the other. Their leaders keep yelling unconvincing taunts at one another.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 14, 2016, 05:49:23 pm

Really, half of those could be sidequest plot hooks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 14, 2016, 05:51:37 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:29:14 pm

101 wilderness encounters from the Bay12 hivemind:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1.You find a concealed stone paved road leading off into the wilderness
2.You find the remains of another group's campsite
3.You see lights in the distance and hear the sound of music and laughter
4.You see a swallow tied to a coconut perched in a nearby tree
5.A body lays on the ground near a shallow hole with a shovel nearby
6.A travelling merchant sits by the side of the road next to a lame donkey
7.You see a barn on fire in the distance
8.Two men stand next to a wagon with a wheel that’s fallen off
9.Three boys are daring each other to climb a nearby structure
10.Two men are arguing about what defines good or evil
11.There is a toll booth ahead
12.An ornate sword is sticking out of the chest of a stone shaped like a monster
13.You find the hidden site of a poison maker’s hut
14.A trail of bones arranged like arrows points into the wilderness
15.You see a tree marked with druidic symbols
16.A glowing weapon sits in the centre of a large pond
17.A meteor crashes to the ground nearby
18.A sinkhole has opened and revealed the entrance to an ancient ruin
19.A secluded cabin is filled with undead cats
20.You hear crying from the bottom of a well
21.A mound with a stone marker that reads “What’s dead is best left buried”
22.A half-orc hangs in an iron cage at a crossroads, nearly dead
23.The road ahead passes through a well known ambush location
24.A young girl claims a witch has her brother and plans to eat him
25.A stranger begs you to willingly accept a cursed item
26. There's a big pit trap in the middle of the road, and inside it is a crashed wagon and a desperate tax collector.
27. There's a hole in a tree nearby and something very bright is shining out from inside it.
28. There's a literal hole a few metres up in the sky and water is pouring out of it at high speeds.
29. You meet a bear in the woods. She asks you if you've got any food to spare and if you know the way to the nearest town.
30. You encounter an orc fighting a tree with his bare hands, making mild progress. Several of his comrades are cheering him on.
31. An ancient tower leans precipitously over a meander. It ponderously collapses over the next hour, falling into the river piece by piece as it creates a new reef.
32. An elephant wanders the environs, looking out of place and confused.
33. The bottom half of a knight, neatly severed, lies in plain sight, still fresh and warm.
34. A zombie is sinking in quicksand, unable to process its predicament.
35. You kick a small pebble as you move about on your way. The ground starts to emit a progressively rising rumble.
36. You encounter a farmer tending his honey farm of giant wasps.
37. A bottle full of a shining silver liquid stands on a flat rock placed in the middle of the road.
38. you encounter two swordsmen - one dressed in red, the other in blue - locked in a duel.
39. You encounter the most cruel, foul, and bad-tempered rabbit you ever set eyes on.
40. Coming to a crossroads, you see the silvery figure of a ghostly woman, looking lost and upset.
41. The top half of a knight, neatly severed, lies in plain sight, still fresh and warm.
42.  A young man in a green cap runs past, being chased by a flock of angry chickens.
43. You find the site of a battle - the mud is churned and littered with broken arrows, weapons, and dried blood - but not a single body is in sight.
44. The dark figure of some vast creature crawls towards you from the path ahead before vanishing.
45. kobolds prance around a fire, a man trapped in a nearby wooden cage.
46. You find a grave. Seemingly from the ground, a voice loudly decries the vile traitor that betrayed him.
47. A dense mist descends and when it rises a character/valuable item has vanished.
48. You find a tree with disturbing faces carved into it.
49. You find a wandering fey, fresh into their first time on the material plane.
50. You find a trail of treats, strung from trees leading off into the deep forest
51. A boulder slowly rolls across the path, smashing through trees without slowing.  Its wake is perfectly straight, and long.
52. A goblin is climbing trees and debranching them.  It begs for assistance before nightfall.
53. A swarm of ants fills the path ahead, standing perfectly still.
54. A talking frog claims to be cursed, and begs to be taken to a prince for a kiss.
55. A hairy arm thrusts out of the ground, holding a shining battleaxe.
56. An old man sits beside the road, demanding a toll of "one riddle each".
57. At nightfall in a valley, ghostly coral and fish appear.  A glowing ship slowly floats above the path ahead.
58. The sound of clashing weapons is heard off in the trees.  But if approached, it remains equally distant.
59. An unarmed man lies in the road, dying of a sword wound.  He cannot speak, but refuses assistance as best he can.
60. A pillar of light from the full moon appears, touching down nearby.  Chanting can be heard through the trees.
61: You find a box of 3 magical equipment items; One of them is a great one that gives a major boost in damage. One of them is a "Girdle of Masculinity/Feminity". One of them is cursed and turns the wearer Chaotic Evil until it is removed.
62: You run into an old man in a cottage. He has dryads to help him tend his garden and he has a bit of a bug problem he wants you to help him with.
63. You come across a lake/pond/river. On the other side is a bear that appears to be made of some sort of roots. As it's swimming through the water towards you, you notice that the root bear floats.
64. You come across a Wizard on the road, arguing with their Familiar. Alternatively, a Druid and their Animal Companion. Or a Necromancer and an Intelligent Undead.
65. As you walk along the forest road, you begin to notice that colours, sounds, smells, and tastes are becoming much more vivid.
66. You hear what sounds like talking in the distance. As you approach, you see a number of woodland animals straining to comprehend their newfound intelligence.
67. The trees of this area seem peculiar to you. As you approach one to investigate, you realize that you have really been walking past the legs of giant creatures for the last half-mile.
68. You come across a man claiming to be a priest of a deity you have never heard of, asking for your assistance. Unknown to you, his powers are arcane in nature.
69. Thinly veiled innuendo.
70. The trees of this area seem peculiar to you. They appear to have thick vines hanging down each of their branches. As you approach, you realize that they are in fact the incredibly long arms of Moss Trolls. Seems you have stumbled upon a clan's territory. Luckily, they are currently asleep.
71. The weather becomes unpleasantly unseasonable.
72. A tree trips you over with a root, by accident.
73. A tree trips you over with a root, on purpose. It obviously grew that root in just that way for the sole purpose of tripping you over.
74. You spy an old man lying by the side of the road. He tells you that he was robbed by bandits, who stole his wheelchair. If you refuse to get it for him, he gets up, hits you with a stick and wanders off, muttering about the youth of today not respecting their elders, before falling over again because he's supposed to be in a wheelchair.
75. You have an uncomfortable feeling of being watched. You look around, but see nothing. Wait, did that pebble just wink at you?
76. You spot in the distance a man on horseback, clad completely in black with a long cloak. Although it is a breezy day, his cloak does not seem to move in the wind.
77. Suddenly, and very scarily, absolutely nothing interesting happens, throwing you completely off guard.
78. A shifty looking man sidles towards you and offers to sell you some cheap, "quality" magical artifacts from a totally legit source.
79. You spot a stairway carved into the side of a hill/mountainside/cliff leading up to a natural looking cave. As you watch, you see a metallic spring fall down the stairs.
80. A band of well dressed bandits accost you.
81. There is a large oak tree in the middle of the road ahead. In front of it is a picnic table with room enough to sit the party and no more, along with an assortment of food.
82. A garishly robed Wood Elf falls to his death from the sky.
83. There's a giant constrictor snake in the middle of the road, and someone (or something) is inside it, screaming for help.
84. While crossing a bridge, a troll leaps up and demands you pay a toll.
85. As above, but while the troll distracts you, another one sneaks up behind you and ties your shoe laces together.
86. You come across an elf engaged in a staring contest with a patch of nettles.
87. A pack of wolves is eating a recently killed deer. They won't bother you if you don't bother them.
88. Some wizard's cat familiar is in heat and trying to feed an aphrodesiac to a much larger wild cat like a lynx or a bobcat or an ocelot or something
89. Two elves seem to be playing a boardgame in a clearing, except that on closer inspection - and despite the fact that thir game seems to be progressing - they never seem to actually move any of the pieces.
90. An enormous swarm of panicked rats or snakes or other small animals scurries past going in the other direction
91. A raven pecks at a corpse by the side of the path
92. Shrines to two rival deities are located a short distance from one another along the path (really two seperate encounters, I guess). Both have been defaced.
93. A boat is half buried in the dirt far from any body of water
94. A boat is half buried in the side of a building, no one who lives around it seems to notice.
95. The party spots a ship sailing across the sky, using clouds as "waves".
96. Someone walks up to them and makes them take the GOAT from FO3
97. They meet a friendly troll in full plate, who is questing to become a knight of justice. The troll asks them if they've seen any fearsome beasts it could slay.
98. You encounter a hunting party carrying the body of a tremendous dire boar
99. You discover a wizard's tower. In the basement are a dozen locked cages containing strange creatures, and a open single cage. The wizard is nowhere to be seen.
100. With a very loud bang, a large chest containing a living halfling appears. The halfing is glad to be freed from inside, and gives the party a choice between two pouches.
101. The party stumbles across another party. Made up of dopplegangers of themselves. Claiming that they're the real ones.
101b. Flip a coin. On a tails, the dopplegangers are telling the truth.

with thanks to : Twinwolf, FallacyofUrist, GiglameshDespair, Greatorder, Sirius, Kilakan, Bohandas, Dutrius, Gentlefish, Scriver, BlackFlyme, Kadzar, Rolan7, sjm9876, Harry Baldman, and Jimmy who started the whole thing.

It axtually went up to 111

Quote from: Sensei on January 13, 2016, 01:08:55 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

102.) The party encounters a camp of shifty figures, selling stolen goods for cheap. They're pretty open about stuff being stolen. If something has been stolen from the party recently, they can buy it here.

Quote from: Bohandas on January 13, 2016, 01:17:34 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

103.) Forest fire
104.) Flash flood
105.) Mud slide
106.) Windstorm
107.) Harmless but odd magically altered wildlife; small animals with odd appearances cantrips or orisons as 1/minute spell-like abilities. maybe faintly glowing squirrels moving nuts around with Mage Hand.
108.) 2 wizards in a non lethal brawl
109.) Low level and/or npc class spellcaster members of one of the almost-fey humanoid races (ie. elves, gnomes, etc.) - or perhaps actual fey - hidden by the side of the road try to magically prank or telekinetically pickpocket (or putpocket) the PCs without their knowledge

EDIT:
110.) Elves are running an unlicensed gambling den in the treetops
111.) An itinerant priest of Olidammara (or a similar deity ) tags along for a while and gives an impassioned but rambling sermon including phrases like "off the chain", "kickin it oldschool", "keep your pimp hand strong" and "smoke weed every day"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 14, 2016, 06:33:37 pm

Quote from: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 14, 2016, 05:49:23 pm

Really, half of those could be sidequest plot hooks.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you played a game where, instead of 1d4+2 goblins for a random encounter, you were introduced to a potential sidequest plot? I know that would be far more interesting for me as a player, especially if you're already on some important quest and you have to choose between finishing it or racing off to explore this new interesting thing. I can foresee a trail of half completed quests behind me as my character gets distracted by some new curiosity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 14, 2016, 06:38:45 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on January 14, 2016, 02:04:19 pm

100) A local magistrate's carriage explodes as he is walking toward it from his house.
101) You see a carriage speeding down the street in your direction. Shrouded figures all wearing robes of the same color lean out the sides, brandishing wands of fire.
102) Two gangs of local toughs, numbering about three dozen on each side, seem to be about to initiate combat in the streets, though neither side appears to be quite up to charging the other. Their leaders keep yelling unconvincing taunts at one another.

103) Two rival gangs of bards face off in the streets, dancing and snapping their fingers in unison at each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 14, 2016, 06:47:56 pm

There's a literal gang war between two groups of Monks in a major city in Pathfinder because they were tasked with keeping a portal closed, and a few centuries later a group decided they wanted to open it to see what's inside, because the original Monks were never actually told what they were protecting the portal for.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 14, 2016, 11:34:58 pm

Howzabout desert encounters next?

1.) Sandstorm
2.) Banditos
3.) Fey operated/haunted oasis
5.) That cactus is following you
6.) Inexplicable and incongrous rainstorm limited to a single 30 foot radius
7.) Ghost riders in the sky chasing after flying fiendish cattle
8.) You come across a large and garish city starkly out of place in the waterless desert
9.) You trip over the tip of an ancient pyramid (or a temple or a sphynx or whatever) almost completely buried in the sand
10.) A skeletal animal plods thoughtlessly across the terrain; as oblivious to the fact that it is dead as it is to everything else.
11.) You encounter a genie who is highly distrustful of spellcasters.
12.) A horde of marauders in garishly decorated vehicles. Their banter indicates that they are part of some sort of deranged cult
13.) A mirage intensifies into a series of powerful illusions which entrance you. If everyone fails their saves you come to in the clutches of a group of deranged wizards who want to remove your brains
14.) A crashed derilect spelljammer is actually a trap. It sstill works and it's owner is still there with a bunch of snakes and tries to rob you.


(Yes I'm aware that I've mixed American, Middle Eastern, and Austrailian themes here. So sue me.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 15, 2016, 01:14:10 am

15.) You come across a group of three humanoids standing in a circle with crossbows pointed at each other.
16.) A group of people are crawling along the group, silently calling out for water.
17.) A trade caravan
18.) A market stall, set up right in your path, with some interesting wares for sale
19.) A group of people, at least one has a map and navigational instruments, at least one is waving a crossbow in their general direction
20.) A war party on the march. They wear no armor because of the heat.
21.) A tribe of nomadic iguanafolk have set up camp nearby
22.) Sandworm!
23.) Sandworms!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 15, 2016, 01:21:14 am

24) !!SANDWORMS!!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 15, 2016, 01:29:48 am

25.)  An old man who leads a train of three wagons along with some crew.  He is obsessed with hunting a certain white landshark.
26.)  A mirage of an oasis or something else nice
27.)  As 26, but the mirage is a trap created by an illusionist.  He feels the party is encroaching on his land, or wronged him somehow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 15, 2016, 01:47:19 am

28.) Reptilefolk of one variety or another basking on the rocks
29.) A group of women, one of them a mid level ranger, flees the cult that controls he area surrounding a nearby oasis

EDIT:

30.) A deranged man who believes you are somehow responsible for the desert being a wasteland contonually contacts and harasses you through spells and constructs
31.) Confused vultures peck at some zombies

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 15, 2016, 02:52:46 am

32) A rainstorm hits the area you are in, the first in over a decade. The ground comes alive as long-dormant life exploits this priceless opportunity.
33) A trail of scorpions stretches across your path. It extends from your left to your right as far as the eye can see.
34) You see an oasis in the distance. It appears to have caught fire.
35) A shack constructed of bones stands before you. Inside lives a sociable demon eager for company.
36) A bleached skeleton in rags hails you as you walk through the desert, silently offering you its waterskin.
37) As night falls, you see something flash three times on the horizon. After a minute, something flashes twice some distance to the left.
38) A man dressed in black leather wanders in the distance, trailed by a naked boy.
39) You find the desiccated corpse of a man on the way, not a mark on him. Next to his body is a half-full waterskin.
40) An ancient blue dragon dives out of the sand right next to you, trying to give you a good scare before flying off laughing.
41) A man tries to sell you a suit of armor that is said to help conserve water by the indigenous folk.
42) A naturally mummified druid sits in a sacred grove of welwitschias.
43) You come across a circular salt pan. At the center of it stands a small tent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 15, 2016, 03:06:37 am

By the way, am I the only one getting tired of Pathfinder? The feats and overdesign of the systems just rub me completely the wrong way now. D&D5E is better in some regards but I've just been playing OSR systems instead.

Desert Adventures
44) As you start to get ready to sleep for the night, the party comes across a circus in the middle of the desert. There are all various sorts of entertainment on offer and they offer very comfortable sleeping tents. Is it mundane? Is it demonic? Is it fae?

Find out next time, on the roleplaying chronicles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 15, 2016, 03:20:15 am

45. You see a castle made of sand
46. Ahead the sand abruptly ends, replaced by a smooth field of glass
47. Along your path appears two sets of footprints in the sand; wherever the terrain gets difficult, only one set can be seen
48. A tent city of gnomes is ahead, the inhabitants erecting some massive mechanical pumping machine
49. At regular spaces ahead, dark holes appear to sink into the ground, at least ten feet across each
50. A polar bear appears from behind a sand dune, looking out of place and lost, not to mention dehydrated and malnourished

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dutrius on January 15, 2016, 08:49:53 am

51. It starts to hail. (This is possible.)
52. You start to get the feeling that a cactus is following you. Dammit! Didn't see that it had already been done.
52. A small, glowing rock hits the ground a foot away, creating a small crater. If you are wearing iron or steel armour, it jumps out of the sand and sticks to your armour. You can not pull it off.
53. You come across sand made from crushed gemstones.
54. You come across an abandoned flying carpet. It is completely inert.
55. You are startled when an incredibly fast bird runs past.
56. The sand starts humming.
57. You find a half buried wooden beam, similar to one you'd find in the roofs of a city. It is covered in burn marks.
58. You find a 5000 year old oak tree, maintained by a dryad who has been here since before the land was a desert.
59. You spot people on wooden boards sliding down a sand dune.
60. A djinn swats you with a palm tree.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 15, 2016, 09:21:06 am

Quote from: Dutrius on January 15, 2016, 08:49:53 am

54. You come across an abandoned flying carpet. It is completely inert.

So... it's an ordinary carpet? More lying than flying? More lying than flying?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dutrius on January 15, 2016, 09:34:59 am

It was a flying carpet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 15, 2016, 09:50:45 am

61) A very strange person wearing completely unfitting clothing for the environment. They have about seven different firearms all over them, plus an enormous assortment of mostly useless items in their backpack. A strange magical device is set upon their wrist that nobody has seen before. A spherical robot is with them.
 Pick one:
 61a) The person attacks as soon as they come into range.
 61b) The person attempts to rob everyone when they aren't looking.
 61c) The person attempts to rob everyone by threatening you.
 61d) The person attempts to buy everyone's gear off of them. They have an enormous sum of money on hand.
 61e) The person greets everyone politely, proceeds to have a pleasant conversation with you, and walks away, whistling merrily.
 61f) The person mutters something about a "wild wasteland" as they pass and ignores everyone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 15, 2016, 11:54:48 am

Quote from: Dutrius on January 15, 2016, 09:34:59 am

It was a flying carpet.

But how would you tell

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 15, 2016, 01:32:47 pm

62.) A blue dragon offers to refill your water for an exorbitant fee. If the characters refuse the dragon magically dries up all their canteens and provisions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 15, 2016, 03:08:22 pm

63) A blue dragon claims to be building a great library and requests every text from every corner of the world, with great riches and magical rewards on offer for those who bring him rare enough texts. He is actually just doing it in the hopes that magical texts will be brought to him.
64) An efreeti requests that the party seal him in a bottle for five years so that he can escape a promise he made.
65) The party comes across an ancient and beautiful city in the sands. It is beyond any known human measure but devoid of life. The more astute of them may notice that their breath produces no moisture and they become parched much more quickly. Water seems to drain away in such speed as to be unbelievable. There is great treasure to be had here, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 15, 2016, 05:11:08 pm

Our party has found its first dragon! We're all level 9-10, and this dragon's a CR 14 Adult Red Dragon.

We've found a small fissure leading into its lair at the mid level of a volcano. Attacking straight on would be suicide, so here's my plan:

1. My Wizard attacks the dragon just before resting for the day. I can throw out 6 Enervation spells, each with a 95% chance of hitting the dragon, and a 50% chance of penetrating its spell resistance. This should equal about 7 negative levels to the dragon on average, more if I'm lucky.

2. After resting, I repeat the same attack sequence, with a total of 5 Enervations for an average of 6 more negative levels. At this stage the Dragon's saves are at -13 on average. I then cast Magic Jar from the tunnel, using a gem from its horde as the Jar. From this position I attempt to suck the Dragon's soul out, and let my party coup-de-grace the Dragon.

Fingers crossed it works!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 15, 2016, 05:14:11 pm

The dragon proceeds to close the fissure / come out and murder everyone once it realizes it's being Enervated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 15, 2016, 05:19:27 pm

Basically:

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 15, 2016, 05:14:11 pm

The dragon proceeds to close the fissure / come out and murder everyone once it realizes it's being Enervated.

As an intelligent creature, it should also be able to respond intelligently to being casted on, and not just sit there and take it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 15, 2016, 05:20:36 pm

How long does Enervate take to cast, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 15, 2016, 05:21:54 pm

It does seem that a plan that is relying on a dragon, a power sorcerer in addition to a very physically powerful creature not finding a way in eight hours to do anything to you is a bit suspect.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 15, 2016, 05:22:45 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 15, 2016, 05:21:54 pm

It does seem that a plan that is relying on a dragon, a power sorcerer in addition to a very physically powerful creature not finding a way in eight hours to do anything to you is a bit suspect.

Maybe you can hit it while it's sleeping?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 15, 2016, 05:27:43 pm

Well. Maybe. I guess Enervation doesn't specify how it feels, but it seems a bit suspect that the dragon wouldn't wake up and understand what's going on. (Remember, dragons are highly intelligent and almost as magically powerful as his character).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2016, 05:33:14 pm

Enervation is just a standard action.

I don't know about D&D, but in Pathfinder, developers have stated that you know when offensive magic has been cast on you, even if you make the save. It doesn't give you any specifics beyond feeling uneasy, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 15, 2016, 05:33:41 pm

Enervation is losing a vital part of your being to a 'crackling ray of black energy'.
That sounds like it'd be painful enough to wake something up, never mind the sound of the incantation and the spell itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 15, 2016, 05:43:46 pm

I wish spells had an indicator for whether the target is automatically aware of being affected.  Or maybe there's some general rule?  Since it seems implied that Charm Person and other mind-effecting enchantments can be applied secretly.

But ray spells are probably obvious beams of energy (negative in this case), particularly since they're dodgeable.  Even if the dragon doesn't see the ray because it's asleep or something, it's probably a painful and obvious thing to get hit with.

Anyway it's a *dragon*, so it likely has a high spellcraft, spot and listen.  Good luck :D

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2016, 05:33:14 pm

Enervation is just a standard action.

I don't know about D&D, but in Pathfinder, developers have stated that you know when offensive magic has been cast on you, even if you make the save. It doesn't give you any specifics beyond feeling uneasy, though.

Oh cool, glad they clear that up.  You'd need Spellcraft (20+spell level) to identify the spell effect in 3.5e, and an easier roll for identifying the casting itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 15, 2016, 06:33:42 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 15, 2016, 05:43:46 pm

I wish spells had an indicator for whether the target is automatically aware of being affected.  Or maybe there's some general rule?  Since it seems implied that Charm Person and other mind-effecting enchantments can be applied secretly.

That's always bothered me as well.

Quote from: Jimmy on January 15, 2016, 05:11:08 pm

2. After resting, I repeat the same attack sequence,

You've played too many videogames. If it works than so has your DM. Hell, even in videogames it bothers me that you can do this kind of stuff, though I understand that there are limitations to what can be done without slowing the program to a crawl.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 15, 2016, 06:46:50 pm

So far the dragon appears to be happy to remain perched on its horde next to the large bottomless cavern inside the main volcano shaft. We've poked it a few times to test its responses, mainly to see if we could use a decoy or summoned creatures to lure it away from the horde while we go in and steal it. As far as I can see, the dragon doesn't have any method available to magically seal the fissure we're using, nor does it have any shapechanging magic to chase us down our 5 ft. by 5 ft. rat-hole. It could always drop a boulder on the entrance, but pushing it back out of the way shouldn't be too hard for our melee characters (it's not like they're contributing much else to the fight anyhow).

As for going toe to toe with a fully awake and angry adult red dragon, my Wizard's pretty well equipped to handle it. Obviously Resist Energy and Protection from Energy to negate the breath weapon, Blur and Mirror Image to avoid too many melee hits, and lots of teleportation SLAs from my Conjuration school specialization to get the hell away if I take too many hits. I have 100 hit points, so I should be fine even if I take a big hit with a Greater Vital Strike Power Attack. I'm just hoping it doesn't ready Dispel Magic to counterspell my Enervations, since that's the biggest risk to the strategy. I'm considering whether to summon a half dozen lantern archons to zap it with lasers while I tag it with enervations as a distraction too, just to add a little extra chaos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 15, 2016, 07:07:52 pm

66.) A nearly invisible palace made of glass
67.) A brass dragon invites the PCs into its lair to rest. It becomes passive-aggressive when they go to leave (but never becomes violent)
68.) The most visibly injured party member (if any) is healed after a small-scale whirlwind blows past them, said whirlwind actually being a bralani eladrin

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 15, 2016, 07:11:00 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 15, 2016, 07:07:52 pm

67.) A brass dragon invites the PCs into its lair to rest. It becomes passive-aggressive when they go to leave (but never becomes violent)

67a) The brass dragon admits, with little prying whatsoever, that it's just lonely. The PCs are given an artifact that can whisk them to the dragon's lair any time they wish and they reluctantly promise to return sometime.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 15, 2016, 08:41:30 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 15, 2016, 07:11:00 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 15, 2016, 07:07:52 pm

67.) A brass dragon invites the PCs into its lair to rest. It becomes passive-aggressive when they go to leave (but never becomes violent)

67a) The brass dragon admits, with little prying whatsoever, that it's just lonely. The PCs are given an artifact that can whisk them to the dragon's lair any time they wish and they reluctantly promise to return sometime.

Assuming that the artifact will also return the party to whatever place they were at before, I would happily take something like that. Free eject button for when encounters go poorly!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 15, 2016, 08:49:51 pm

67b) The dragon is extremely excited every time the party returns and asks them to explain - at length - their recent adventures, then regales them with tales of its own. A bare minimum encounter with it lasts an hour.
Good luck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 15, 2016, 08:52:25 pm

Quote from: Sirus on January 15, 2016, 08:41:30 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 15, 2016, 07:11:00 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 15, 2016, 07:07:52 pm

67.) A brass dragon invites the PCs into its lair to rest. It becomes passive-aggressive when they go to leave (but never becomes violent)

67a) The brass dragon admits, with little prying whatsoever, that it's just lonely. The PCs are given an artifact that can whisk them to the dragon's lair any time they wish and they reluctantly promise to return sometime.

Assuming that the artifact will also return the party to whatever place they were at before, I would happily take something like that. Free eject button for when encounters go poorly!

Sounds like great dinner conversation to me. Party heals up and has some food while everyone shares their stories.

If anything, doing this is more likely to result in the dragon becoming a powerful ally of the party. I still see no downsides :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 15, 2016, 08:54:10 pm

67c) The dragon falls in love with one (or two, or all) of the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 15, 2016, 08:56:27 pm

Dragonkin offspring! Start an entire clan of powerful adventurers!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 08:58:58 pm

Free Half-Dragon template for all descendants!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Frumple on January 15, 2016, 09:12:15 pm

... dragons being dragons, I now have a terrible curiosity as to whether teenage half-dragons have a problem with the sudden appearance of half-dragon underwear... few other species in fiction could conceivably impregnate their underclothes in the process of a particularly ribald dream.

Hell, in that direction, they'd have terrible problems with bedding in general. Sleep skyclad, you have half-dragon blankets, beds, etc. Sleep on the ground, you accidentally half-dragon earth elementals/hills/rocks. One half-wonders how worlds containing omnifertile dragons consist of anything except half-dragon everything, from the sentients to the countryside to the cutlery. It only takes one offspring crossbred with a race of notable fecundity and suddenly everything is scaled and firebreathing.

Also, red dragon critter above, ware ye' volcanic eruptions and/or things from the depths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:31:17 pm

I'm 95% sure that fabric is infertile.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 15, 2016, 09:34:13 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:31:17 pm

I'm 95% sure that fabric is infertile.

To OOCQ with ye!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Frumple on January 15, 2016, 09:35:09 pm

I'm 100% sure D&D dragons and their spawn don't give a damn if fabric is infertile.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2016, 09:38:09 pm

I thought it was the humans that were the equivalent of Dittos in many fantasy worlds, not dragons.

Half-elves, half-orcs, half-genies, half-angels, half-demons, half-vampires, half-werebeasts, half-hags, half-fish, and a few others I can't think of at the moment.

It's quite a list of bastards.

That said, it is known in some circles that dragons do have their fondness for cars and other vehicles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:45:23 pm

They are normally, but D&D 3.5 has a running joke based on this.

Quote from: D20 SRD

"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 15, 2016, 09:48:40 pm

Well, at least they have to be a living corporeal creature. I can imagine the horrors of a half-dragon tree.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Frumple on January 15, 2016, 09:51:08 pm

Yeah... D&D dragons, at least, are like fantasy humans on some kind of unholy conglomeration of steroids, viagra, and spanish fly. They can manage to impregnate (or get knocked up by) things that don't have a reproductive system. Or organs. Dragons find a way.

Also, EB, a tree is both living and corporeal. Pretty sure there's shenanigan methods of getting around either of those two, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:51:59 pm

Quote from: Eric Blank on January 15, 2016, 09:48:40 pm

Well, at least they have to be a living corporeal creature. I can imagine the horrors of a half-dragon tree.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/sIPkUic.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 15, 2016, 09:53:46 pm

...
Does that template allow entities made living through magic?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:55:45 pm

I don't see why not. Do you have an example?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Frumple on January 15, 2016, 09:57:57 pm

I think the real question is whether the entirety of a coral reef would get the template, or just each individual polyp. Swarm rules?

And could you imagine what a necromancer could do with a half-dragon coral reef if it's the latter? Rig up an AoE reanimation spell, suddenly millions of ECL worth of undead half-dragon coral polyps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 15, 2016, 10:01:25 pm

I both completely regret and am horrifyingly intrigued by this line of conversation I unwittingly started.
Wait, if a dragon can knock up anything corporeal, and the atmosphere is corporeal...
_{Also, is the "dragons can literally knock up anything" part true}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on January 15, 2016, 10:02:06 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:55:45 pm

I don't see why not. Do you have an example?

an animated companion cube?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 15, 2016, 10:06:59 pm

I assume that unless the air itself is alive, then no, you can't have a half-dragon atmosphere.

Also, yes, a dragon can knock up anything. Just like you can. But unlike you, the anything or the dragon could actually produce viable offspring.

Also, I was trying to express relief that dragon babies have to at least be living organisms. I CAN imagine plant-dragon. I cannot imagine car-dragon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 15, 2016, 10:07:58 pm

YEAH! I just turned all the Wizard Cantrips into monsters! :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Frumple on January 15, 2016, 10:14:20 pm

Yeeeaaaahhh, EB, they don't exactly have to be living organisms, per se, they just have to be living, and magic can apply the living attribute to... well, things like cars. Blocks of iron, clothes, whatever.

Pretty sure there's also stuff to turn incorporeal things corporeal, so... yeah. It'd take some spell slots and probably material (and/or XP) expenditure, but if a dragon or half-dragon really wants a half-dragon whatever, it's almost certainly doable.

Does mean the flaming underclothes apocalypse is unlikely to happen, though. Still probably possible, thanks to all the mimic-variations and similar such critters in the monster books, but not as likely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 16, 2016, 12:07:39 am

Quote from: Frumple on January 15, 2016, 10:14:20 pm

Yeeeaaaahhh, EB, they don't exactly have to be living organisms, per se, they just have to be living, and magic can apply the living attribute to... well, things like cars. Blocks of iron, clothes, whatever.

Constructs don't count per the RAW; IIRC

EDIT:
Speaking of half-creature templates, what's the point of the 4 intelligence or higher requirement for the half-fiend template. I mean I understand why there's that requitement for half-celestials but I don't get why there's a similar one for half-fiends (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqH55RWPHaw#t=00m23s).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 16, 2016, 12:45:29 am

I like how somehow the comments manage to be worse than the video...

Also 10/10 discussion on where half-dragons come from.  I think the book of erotic fantasy clarified the issue...  Obviously the worst part of that book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 16, 2016, 12:49:38 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 16, 2016, 12:45:29 am

I like how somehow the comments manage to be worse than the video...

Also 10/10 discussion on where half-dragons come from.  I think the book of erotic fantasy clarified the issue...  Obviously the worst part of that book.

The NBoUCK (http://carnal.orfinlir.de/) was better

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 16, 2016, 02:36:59 am

Quote from: Eric Blank on January 15, 2016, 10:06:59 pm

I assume that unless the air itself is alive, then no, you can't have a half-dragon atmosphere.

Air elementals are alive and don't have the incorporeal subtype.
Q.E.D., You can have a half-dragon atmosphere.

Quote from: Neonivek on January 15, 2016, 10:07:58 pm

YEAH! I just turned all the Wizard Cantrips into monsters! :P

You're joking, but it's actually a thing. MM3, "Living Spell" template. Turns spells into oozes. Technically, there's no rules specifically for Cantrips, but I don't see why they wouldn't work.
Oh, and yes, you can have a half-dragon fireball.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 16, 2016, 03:23:40 am

68.) Some sphinxes press gang the pcs into a high stakes quiz show hosted by one for the entertainment of the others
69.) Giant mutant scorpions
70.) A cone shaped depression in the dunes rings a deep hole into the underdark
71.) Another traveler who pulls a knife on you and tries to steal all your water
72.) Magical variety of some normally decidedly non-desert animalo which has developed the ability to create water
73.) Camel train
74.) A formian or modron is counting the grains of sand

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 05:16:27 am

After a bit more research I've decided to revise my attack plan. I'm going to try purchasing 6-8 doses of Cockatrice Grit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cockatrice-grit) and having my summoned monsters toss them at the Dragon instead. With no save on 1d4 Dex damage vs. its touch AC of 8, it should be over after about 1-2 rounds of combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 16, 2016, 05:28:16 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 05:16:27 am

After a bit more research I've decided to revise my attack plan. I'm going to try purchasing 6-8 doses of Cockatrice Grit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cockatrice-grit) and having my summoned monsters toss them at the Dragon instead. With no save on 1d4 Dex damage vs. its touch AC of 8, it should be over after about 1-2 rounds of combat.

Operation: True Grit

Anyway, that sounds like that thing where people found Shivering Touch in D&D 3.5 and proceeded to really smugly figure out how to munchkin their way out of anything with it. Admittedly, this is less cheap (literally, given one dose costs 2k gp) and broken, but still the sort of thing that I'd feel would put a reasonable GM in a vindictive mood.

The question is, wouldn't "a Fortitude save to end the effect" mean that it shrugs off the initial Dex damage after 1 round? EDIT: Probably not, since that's explicitly not how calcific touch works. Still, better hope this is not the sort of dragon that eats all of its treasure (since they totally could if my knowledge of improbable dragon biology is correct).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 05:34:04 am

Just like poison effects, even if you make the saving throw in subsequent rounds, the damage that's already occurred still remains. Dexterity damage would stack perfectly well per the rules, so no trouble there either. The item text specifically says "each round that follows, the victim can attempt a DC 17 Fortitude save at the start of its turn" which means the initial 1d4 Dex damage has no saving throw, just requiring you to hit the touch AC with the attack roll (which will be all but impossible to miss for this thing).

Since the average loot for a CR 14 encounter is 15,000 gp, investing 12,000-16,000 gp into killing this thing without any risk will return approximately 24,000 gp of loot due to the triple standard treasure effect for dragons. Not bad for a day's work, especially since I happen to have a sack of 25,000 gp sitting back at my home base not doing anything particularly useful right now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 16, 2016, 05:49:14 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 05:34:04 am

Just like poison effects, even if you make the saving throw in subsequent rounds, the damage that's already occurred still remains. Dexterity damage would stack perfectly well per the rules, so no trouble there either. The item text specifically says "each round that follows, the victim can attempt a DC 17 Fortitude save at the start of its turn" which means the initial 1d4 Dex damage has no saving throw, just requiring you to hit the touch AC with the attack roll (which will be all but impossible to miss for this thing).

Since the average loot for a CR 14 encounter is 15,000 gp, investing 12,000-16,000 gp into killing this thing without any risk will return approximately 24,000 gp of loot due to the triple standard treasure effect for dragons. Not bad for a day's work, especially since I happen to have a sack of 25,000 gp sitting back at my home base not doing anything particularly useful right now.

DM: "As soon as you fling the first potion and it makes contact with the dragon, it scurries off into the cave complex, leaving the treasure unguarded."

You're gonna get wrecked by a dragon who knows it's caves much, much better than you do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 06:11:21 am

Me: "As soon as the dragon scurries off, I open my portable hole and start shovelling the dragon's horde into it, checking carefully to make sure there's no bags of holding in it before I start. Once I have all its loot, I teleport back to my home base."

Sure, it could track me down some other day. Guess what? I'll still have 8 bags of Cockatrice Grit in my inventory when it does. Of course, that's assuming it even lasts a single round to try and escape. Combat would probably go like this:

Pre-combat: Summon 10 air elementals. Command 8 air elementals to pick up one bag of Cockatrice Grit each. Cast Haste on all 10. Optional: Give the other two a small business card with Explosive Runes on it.
Round 1: Send first air elemental to intiate combat with the dragon. Now we're on initiative. Dragon destroys creature immediately. Alternatively the GM might call this a surprise round, so that's over now too.
Round 2: Send second air elemental to soak up dragon's standard action. Dragon destroys creature immediately. The other eight air elementals use the Delay action to delay until after the dragon's turn. Unless the dragon has fled by now, they each go one after the other and chuck their Cockatrice Grit all within the same round. Combat finished.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 08:53:53 am

I'd think your GM has a serious lack of imagination (or at least, didn't prepare enough, bane of GMs that is. I couldn't blame him.) if he lets the dragon go down that easily. Dex is too classically a weakness of dragons in order for it not have some way to protect itself against such an attack. Of course, the fact that the dragons not doing anything at all to you even after you've been fucking with it sorta implies that this is the case anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on January 16, 2016, 09:05:58 am

alternatively, the family of the dragon decides to get a big revenge against you and everyone related to you.

or the dragon turns out poor and you lost money.

or the hoarde is trapped and next time you try to withdraw from your portable hole, you blow up.

before doing such exploits, be sure your GM will like them, or be prepared for consequences. Also, always remember the rule 0, that can get in the way of such brilliant schemes sometime. ( it can also help them however. In a campaign I played in, we used gaseous poison to clear a mine from kobolds, in a way that I am sure is not exactly as written in rules. sadly, the poison turned out to be permanent, requiring gas masks. but that was a nice flavor and appropriate penalty for skipping the challenge)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 16, 2016, 09:20:41 am

@Dragon omni-virility: I think it's fair to point out that this is usually because of dragons' habit of metamorphing and slumming it up with the lesser races, not because dragon spring-water has some magic ability to impregnate anything it happens to fall upon, be it living underwear or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 09:22:24 am

Hey, if the dragon's family wants some action, bring it. Same trick would work on them too. I'll carpet my home base in red dragon leather.

Ultimately the strategy is exploiting the two glaring weaknesses of dragons: low touch AC and low Dexterity. Now, typically it's not a problem since most effects that inflict Dexterity damage or drain are either poisons with a fortitude save before they work, or spells that are subject to the dragon's extremely good SR. It just so happens that this one item manages to bypass both defences completely. I'll most likely get a pass on this strategy for the current encounter for creativity, then there'll be a houserule that it's banned from future games.

Frankly, I see it as fair turnaround for the DM throwing a creature at us that's 5 CR levels higher than the party average. It's pretty much expected that we'll have to find some loophole to defeat it, since there's zero chance of us surviving a straight up fight. If the intention was for a balanced encounter that involves standard combat, we should have been given a monster that was level appropriate. It's certainly not like I haven't investigated alternative methods of completing the encounter. I initially approached the dragon diplomatically, offered it a 1,000 gp tribute, stroking its ego and doing the best I could to attempt to have a nice peaceful chat. It demanded all my character's equipment instead, then tried to fry me with dragonbreath when I declined. So now we're at the point where only one of us is walking away alive, and I intend for that to be me and my party.

As for traps at the end, if the DM wants to play sore loser and screw us over on the loot, that's not something I can control so I'm not gonna worry about it. I'll still have the rogue check the horde over for traps and give it a good old scan with Detect Magic before we loot the thing though, because you can never be too paranoid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 16, 2016, 09:48:02 am

To be honest, I can think of at least six ways that I as a GM could screw you guys up royally that you aren't planning for without me doing anything too naughty.

One would be to have the dragon wake his legion of kobold slaves, send them down the tunnels at you and then firebreath the entire party whilst you're tied up in combat. Or get said kobolds to light smokey fires and then beat the living daylights out of you in smoke that you can't see in whilst the dragon can see perfectly fine.

But, as others said, your plan involved walking away from a dragon and resting and any GM that allows that is very inexperienced.

Considering the spells even Adult Red Dragons have, you shouldn't be able to get into it's lair without it knowing and wrecking you.

P.S. The GM isn't a sore loser. It isn't a game about you versus them. That isn't how P&P works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 16, 2016, 11:55:04 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 05:16:27 am

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cockatrice-grit

Does that site have an option anywhere to download a local copy of their content?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 16, 2016, 01:37:51 pm

Ok I am going to do the stupid, the insane... and make another game... >_<

But THIS time, I am going to create the first 5 sessions worth of content!

Also checked out "Out of the Abyss" and I REALLY didn't expect them to stat out all of the major demon lords.

As well MORE impressively they aren't made to CR (to an extent)... Honestly if 5th edition had a more customization with character creation it would probably be one of the better dnd games.

"Ohh no we have no rogue, that means we can't do 50% of what the adventure asks us"
"Don't worry, I took some rogue skills!"
"Ohh no we lack a healer!"
"Don't worry, we can just take a rest"
"Ohh no we have two fighters and they both want to use Longswords!"
"Don't worry, we can give them different builds"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 16, 2016, 02:17:29 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 16, 2016, 01:37:51 pm

Ok I am going to do the stupid, the insane... and make another game... >_<

WOOOOOO!!!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 16, 2016, 03:22:52 pm

hopefully i will 1. exert effort and 2. participate this time

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 16, 2016, 03:47:10 pm

WOOO GAME!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 16, 2016, 05:11:30 pm

Quote from: andrea on January 15, 2016, 10:02:06 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:55:45 pm

I don't see why not. Do you have an example?

an animated companion cube?

Animated objects aren't considered alive. No constructs are. Even the warforged are only partly living.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 16, 2016, 05:21:05 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 16, 2016, 05:11:30 pm

Quote from: andrea on January 15, 2016, 10:02:06 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2016, 09:55:45 pm

I don't see why not. Do you have an example?

an animated companion cube?

Animated objects aren't considered alive. No constructs are. Even the warforged are only partly living.

But Companion Cubes might be peeeeeooooppppllleeeee.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 05:25:48 pm

Dead bodies are also not considered alive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 16, 2016, 05:41:48 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 05:25:48 pm

Dead bodies are also not considered alive.

Alive people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 05:42:34 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 16, 2016, 05:41:48 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 05:25:48 pm

Dead bodies are also not considered alive.

Alive people.

Not when Chell got though with them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 16, 2016, 05:44:02 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 05:25:48 pm

Dead bodies are also not considered alive.

And yet there is a vampire bloodline.
And an elemental bloodline

It's not the same as "half" but it raises many questions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 16, 2016, 05:52:59 pm

Quote from: andrea on January 16, 2016, 09:05:58 am

alternatively, the family of the dragon decides to get a big revenge against you and everyone related to you.

or the dragon turns out poor and you lost money.

or the hoarde is trapped and next time you try to withdraw from your portable hole, you blow up.

before doing such exploits, be sure your GM will like them, or be prepared for consequences. Also, always remember the rule 0, that can get in the way of such brilliant schemes sometime. ( it can also help them however. In a campaign I played in, we used gaseous poison to clear a mine from kobolds, in a way that I am sure is not exactly as written in rules. sadly, the poison turned out to be permanent, requiring gas masks. but that was a nice flavor and appropriate penalty for skipping the challenge)

There's a spell in Dragons of Krynn that basically magically krazy glues all the items in a dragon's horde together so it can't be easily moved

Quote

Globular Hoard
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: One collection of objects up to one 5-ft. cube/level
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No
This spell bonds all unattended objects that are touching one
another within the spell’s effect. The  hoard is considered one
item, with a total weight equal to the combined weight of
every affected object. A  globular hoard is often difficult (if
not impossible) to move, since a large collection of items can
easily weigh several hundred pounds. It is likewise difficult to
place the hoard in any container, including magical containers
such as  bags of holding , as its total size is usually larger than
the container’s opening.
You can force an individual object free from the hoard
by making a DC 32 Strength check. Once an object has been
removed, it is no longer affected by this casting of the spell—
another casting is required. All objects to be affected must be
in contact with one another when the spell is cast. Thus, you
must cast this spell twice if you want to protect two piles of
objects, or if you want to add an object (such as a magic item)
to an existing  globular hoard .
Dragons developed this spell to secure their hoards when
they must leave for extended periods of time. This spell can be
made permanent with a  permanency spell.
Material Component: 250 gp worth of gold dust,
encased in gum arabic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 05:56:03 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 16, 2016, 05:44:02 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 16, 2016, 05:25:48 pm

Dead bodies are also not considered alive.

And yet there is a vampire bloodline.
And an elemental bloodline

It's not the same as "half" but it raises many questions.

Well, easy enough to answer. Apparently vampires can breed with humanoids (and giants), but not dragons, for some bizarre reason. So really, just bang in some vampire blood, then add dragons for as many generations as it takes for the offspring to count as a dragon, and then it has a vampire (and a human) bloodline! Bing bang bosh jobs a donen.

Also man, elementals aren't dead. They are like. Hyper alive. Exceedingly alive. You can get some hot fire elemental on dragon action any day of the week if you go to the right demiplanes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 16, 2016, 06:03:36 pm

Oh yeah, I love elementals and they're absolutely alive and pure.
Just... good luck boning a rock or a fire or *freakin air*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 16, 2016, 06:09:17 pm

I'm going to cite the Asari for lack of necessity of boning.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 16, 2016, 06:19:38 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 16, 2016, 06:03:36 pm

Oh yeah, I love elementals and they're absolutely alive and pure.
Just... good luck boning a rock or a fire or *freakin air*

(http://i.imgur.com/tpw9ujW.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 16, 2016, 06:24:42 pm

Maybe it's telling that I sorta ranked fire as more bonable than air?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCKpzP5SGYw

I like that "bonable" isn't a word, but can mean either "sexable" or "capable of good".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 16, 2016, 06:28:18 pm

Quote from: Ancient Roman Graffiti

The man who buggers a fire burns his penis

Truly, the Romans were wise people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 16, 2016, 07:34:42 pm

They were indeed a culture more in touch with nature than us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 16, 2016, 08:51:57 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 16, 2016, 09:22:24 am

Hey, if the dragon's family wants some action, bring it. Same trick would work on them too. I'll carpet my home base in red dragon leather.

Ultimately the strategy is exploiting the two glaring weaknesses of dragons: low touch AC and low Dexterity. Now, typically it's not a problem since most effects that inflict Dexterity damage or drain are either poisons with a fortitude save before they work, or spells that are subject to the dragon's extremely good SR. It just so happens that this one item manages to bypass both defences completely. I'll most likely get a pass on this strategy for the current encounter for creativity, then there'll be a houserule that it's banned from future games.

Frankly, I see it as fair turnaround for the DM throwing a creature at us that's 5 CR levels higher than the party average. It's pretty much expected that we'll have to find some loophole to defeat it, since there's zero chance of us surviving a straight up fight. If the intention was for a balanced encounter that involves standard combat, we should have been given a monster that was level appropriate. It's certainly not like I haven't investigated alternative methods of completing the encounter. I initially approached the dragon diplomatically, offered it a 1,000 gp tribute, stroking its ego and doing the best I could to attempt to have a nice peaceful chat. It demanded all my character's equipment instead, then tried to fry me with dragonbreath when I declined. So now we're at the point where only one of us is walking away alive, and I intend for that to be me and my party.

As for traps at the end, if the DM wants to play sore loser and screw us over on the loot, that's not something I can control so I'm not gonna worry about it. I'll still have the rogue check the horde over for traps and give it a good old scan with Detect Magic before we loot the thing though, because you can never be too paranoid.

I don't really know the circumstances of your game, but who's to say you're actually meant to fight the dragon? If there was a 100 foot tall frictionless pole in your path, would you complain that you can't climb it, or would you just go around it? I agree it's bullshit when a DM insists you must fight an impossible fight, but when you have other options, it's reasonable that some things are beyond your powers.

And it seems like you probably have other options, considering the fact that you seem to be able to go out and buy several doses of some obscure magic poison, so it doesn't sound like you're trapped there. (And, reasonably, you should have trouble trying to buy enough cockatrice grit in a short enough timeframe to do the job, but it sounds like your DM isn't one to limit abuse of magic marts).

And if you do try to go up against the dragon, no one here is saying you have to face it in a fair fight. But the opposition is more to you exploiting the system, rather than exploiting the current situation. Anyone can run Pun-Pun with a sufficiently lenient DM, but most people would consider any victories gained by such a character to be cheap. A good plan should be something that, even if DM doesn't allow it or it doesn't work, makes people think, "That was a pretty cool plan". The retelling of the story of how you implemented your plan should ideally require very little rules explanation for anyone who doesn't know the system.

Finally, something that bothers me a little personally is that your plans don't seem to really involve the rest of your party at all. If this is a recurring theme for you, I would discourage it, not only because most people don't like it when they have to sit back while someone else does all the cool stuff, but you lose a lot of strength when you make a plan as a member of a team and only count on your own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on January 16, 2016, 10:41:30 pm

I haven't played a tabletop anything in years, but I still remember my last session vividly.

Chaotic Good Bard - (me)
Neutral Evil Rogue
Lawful Evil Paladin
Lawful Neutral Fighter
Chaotic Neutral Ranger

A profoundly heinous and evil noble, we sneak into a castle holding a feast, kill him, easy enough.

Except the Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil had figured each other out and confronted each other in private, leading to the Lawful Neutral being chopped up and put into the banquet's soup. It was time to serve the food by the time everyone got their stuff together, so the paladin dressed up as a servant and poisoned the entire soup. The rogue somehow managed to disguise as a noble, and of course they partook in the food too.

Two party members dead already, along with nearly every noble in the realm. I had convinced the noble we had to kill to join me outside before this even started, and kicked him off of the castle wall. The Ranger opened the gate in case we had to escape quickly ( we did ). Me and the ranger left on foot, the Paladin punched out a knight and took his horse.

And I never played a session after that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 16, 2016, 10:44:36 pm

I thought Paladins weren't supposed to poison people?

Ohhh, LE.  Derp.

That...Yeah, that's pretty epic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 16, 2016, 11:39:12 pm

Ohhh my gawd...

I just realized that with the 5e rules... it would be VERY easy to do a Pokémon conversion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 17, 2016, 01:41:49 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 14, 2016, 11:34:58 pm

Howzabout desert encounters next?

75.) Sand dune is lair of earth weird
76.) A man is riding through the desert on a horse. He stops and begs you to give his horse a name.
77.) Vultures eating a dead jackal
78.) Jackal eating some dead vultures
79.) Collapsing ruined abandoned town

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2016, 03:18:40 am

Quote from: Kadzar on January 16, 2016, 08:51:57 pm

I don't really know the circumstances of your game, but who's to say you're actually meant to fight the dragon? If there was a 100 foot tall frictionless pole in your path, would you complain that you can't climb it, or would you just go around it? I agree it's bullshit when a DM insists you must fight an impossible fight, but when you have other options, it's reasonable that some things are beyond your powers.

And it seems like you probably have other options, considering the fact that you seem to be able to go out and buy several doses of some obscure magic poison, so it doesn't sound like you're trapped there. (And, reasonably, you should have trouble trying to buy enough cockatrice grit in a short enough timeframe to do the job, but it sounds like your DM isn't one to limit abuse of magic marts).

And if you do try to go up against the dragon, no one here is saying you have to face it in a fair fight. But the opposition is more to you exploiting the system, rather than exploiting the current situation. Anyone can run Pun-Pun with a sufficiently lenient DM, but most people would consider any victories gained by such a character to be cheap. A good plan should be something that, even if DM doesn't allow it or it doesn't work, makes people think, "That was a pretty cool plan". The retelling of the story of how you implemented your plan should ideally require very little rules explanation for anyone who doesn't know the system.

Finally, something that bothers me a little personally is that your plans don't seem to really involve the rest of your party at all. If this is a recurring theme for you, I would discourage it, not only because most people don't like it when they have to sit back while someone else does all the cool stuff, but you lose a lot of strength when you make a plan as a member of a team and only count on your own.

Fine, I've decided to give the dragon a fighting chance and not cheese the encounter with Cockatrice Grit.

Instead, I'll just go solo toe to toe in melee with my wizard. Macho man, drop down, knock out, winner takes all.

Pre-fight: Mage Armor, Heroism, Protection from Evil, Shield, Reduce Person, Long Arm, Resist Energy: Fire, Protection from Energy: Fire, Fly, Maximized Mirror Image, Haste, Displacement, Extended Calcific Touch (cast using Dweomer's Essence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/dweomer-s-essence))
Surprise Round: Dimension Door 10 ft. away from Dragon, surprise round action Calcific Touch attack vs. Dragon.
Round 1 onwards: Move Action Fly until 10 ft. away from Dragon, Standard Action Calcific Touch vs. Dragon, Swift Action Shift (Su) school ability 25 ft. away from Dragon.

Combat should take a maximum of 6 rounds with this strategy. I predict an opening blast of fire breath for 0 damage as it's absorbed completely by Protection from Energy, then a bite attack in round 2 with 1/8 chance of hitting due to mirror image followed by 1/2 chance due to Displacement, etc. If combat goes poorly, I'll Dimension Door away, buff back up and return. I plan to keep an extra casting of Protection from Energy and Maximized Mirror Image available. All legitimate, rules legal, no funny tricks used, straight up fight.

Sadly my party is completely incapable of dealing any significant damage to the beast, with a Rogue/Shadowdancer, Oread Monk and a Rogue/Fighter being the remaining members of the party. They'd have to roll 15 or higher to hit this thing's AC, and even then they'd die from more than two melee hits from it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 17, 2016, 03:57:27 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 17, 2016, 03:18:40 am

Fine, I've decided to give the dragon a fighting chance and not cheese the encounter with Cockatrice Grit.

Instead, I'll just go solo toe to toe in melee with my wizard. Macho man, drop down, knock out, winner takes all.

Pre-fight: Mage Armor, Heroism, Protection from Evil, Shield, Reduce Person, Long Arm, Resist Energy: Fire, Protection from Energy: Fire, Fly, Maximized Mirror Image, Haste, Displacement, Extended Calcific Touch (cast using Dweomer's Essence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/dweomer-s-essence))
Surprise Round: Dimension Door 10 ft. away from Dragon, surprise round action Calcific Touch attack vs. Dragon.
Round 1 onwards: Move Action Fly until 10 ft. away from Dragon, Standard Action Calcific Touch vs. Dragon, Swift Action Shift (Su) school ability 25 ft. away from Dragon.

Combat should take a maximum of 6 rounds with this strategy. I predict an opening blast of fire breath for 0 damage as it's absorbed completely by Protection from Energy, then a bite attack in round 2 with 1/8 chance of hitting due to mirror image followed by 1/2 chance due to Displacement, etc. If combat goes poorly, I'll Dimension Door away, buff back up and return. I plan to keep an extra casting of Protection from Energy and Maximized Mirror Image available. All legitimate, rules legal, no funny tricks used, straight up fight.

Sadly my party is completely incapable of dealing any significant damage to the beast, with a Rogue/Shadowdancer, Oread Monk and a Rogue/Fighter being the remaining members of the party. They'd have to roll 15 or higher to hit this thing's AC, and even then they'd die from more than two melee hits from it.

Man, I don't think you're getting what he's saying.

If you're the only powergamer / optimiser in a group that very much does not optimise, then you should tone it down. Especially as a Conjuration wizard who are to other specialty wizards what wizards are to other classes. Yes, you can solo most encounters. Does that mean you should? Definitely not. Otherwise you're gonna find yourself against creatures that are optimised to destroy wizards.

What I'm saying is: Be the Gandalf.

(Also, none of your plans should work, the dragon should either be long gone or have set up enough traps to destroy your entire party.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 17, 2016, 05:59:25 am

>not cheese
> go solo toe-to-toe with a red dragon as a wizard

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on January 17, 2016, 06:21:03 am

it is much less cheese.
it went from a full wheel to a quarter.

But still, if the wizard is the one going melee against a dragon, something has failed. the rules, the GM, the player or a combination of the above.

y the way, be careful when dimension-dooring in the dragon lair, it might have wards in place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2016, 06:51:16 am

Already tested the area, no teleportation block on it as far as I can see. If I could add Mirror Image to the rest of the party I would, but it's self only, and I'm the only one that is capable of moving towards the dragon, performing a standard attack, and moving away afterward to prevent it getting a full attack sequence. So I get to punch it dead!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on January 17, 2016, 07:30:36 am

out of curiosity, why do you need to fight that dragon?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 17, 2016, 04:46:07 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 14, 2016, 11:34:58 pm

Howzabout desert encounters next?

80.) A fiend offers you food, drink, and riches if you swear allegiance to him
81.) You encounter a man (or whatever) driven mad from the heat
82.) That's an awful lot of tumbleweeds.
83.) Tumbleweed affiliated fey

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 17, 2016, 04:53:13 pm

84. It is now night. It wasn't night a minute ago. Also, it's started to snow.
85. Behold, two-no, three desert caravans! That are all exactly the same!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 17, 2016, 04:58:22 pm

So, anyone else really into RuneQuest and Glorantha?

Nudge nudge wink wink look at my signature.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 17, 2016, 04:59:55 pm

86 ) The party finds some cacti filled with liquid. At DM's discretion, they may or may not contain hallucinogenic/toxic chemicals.
87 ) Someone trips over a rock. Upon closer examination, it appears to be the very tip of a massive, buried pyramid.
88 ) Gale-force winds kick up suddenly, blowing razor-sharp fragments of stone through the air. Take shelter, or get sliced to ribbons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 17, 2016, 05:01:43 pm

89. Desert nomads with completely blue eyes, special armor, and an addiction to spices.
90. Desert gnomads of the same variety.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 17, 2016, 05:40:55 pm

90b. Desert Gonads of the same variety.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 17, 2016, 05:46:23 pm

91.) Desert druid and awakened snakes

EDIT:
92.) Ancient temple
93.) Enormous (huge size) mutant poodle. Has breath weapon and eye lasers.
94.) Dung beetles. If anyone in the party has a background in politics, law, or business the beetles attack and attempt to eat them. They're little threat however, not enough of them for a full hp swarm.
95.) Blue dragon fighting a brass dragon
96.) Salt flats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_pan_(geology)). Possibly inhabited by dessicators and/or water necromentals (see Libris Mortis).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2016, 07:47:01 pm

Quote from: andrea on January 17, 2016, 07:30:36 am

out of curiosity, why do you need to fight that dragon?

Its lair is in a mountain near our base, as well as close to several villages nearby. It's apparently just woken up from a long nap and decided to snack on the surrounding countryside.

Might see if I can get a Rod of Piercing Metamagic added to my Calcific Touch. Should speed up the process significantly if I only fail to beat the Spell Resistance on a roll of a natural 1.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 17, 2016, 10:49:51 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 14, 2016, 11:34:58 pm

Howzabout desert encounters next?

97.) When night falls the temperature drops and that's when the ice mephits come out

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 17, 2016, 11:04:26 pm

98.) A full set of cherry livingwood armor on top of a ruined house. Provides an arbitrary protection bonus over whatever the party's carrying, but only when the full set is worn.
 98a.) A very powerful stave on a rack near the armor that requires someone to wear the livingwood armor to pull it off.
 98b.) The livingwood armor also requires a small potion to activate, as it's very stiff and provides an AC penalty otherwise. This potion is in the basement, behind an easily-opened locked door.
 98c.) Upon taking the potion, applying it to the armor and taking the armor away from the house, a small black dragon appears and attacks.
 98d.) The livingwood armor happens to provide a significant resistance to the black dragon's breath weapon, and the stave does extra damage to it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 17, 2016, 11:35:05 pm

99.)  A cake sits out in the open on a small table, looks edible enough.  Dessert in the Desert.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 12:25:46 am

 99a.) Upon touching the cake, a pure energy golem appears. It simply says "The cake is false," and the cake reveals itself to be an illusion cast by the golem. The golem gives the party [# of party members] x 100 gold each and then leaves.
100.) A cake sits out in the open on a small table, looks edible enough.
 100a.) This cake is actually real cake.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 01:06:43 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 17, 2016, 11:35:05 pm

99.)  A cake sits out in the open on a small table, looks edible enough.  Dessert in the Desert.

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 18, 2016, 12:25:46 am

99a.) Upon touching the cake, a pure energy golem appears. It simply says "The cake is false," and the cake reveals itself to be an illusion cast by the golem. The golem gives the party [# of party members] x 100 gold each and then leaves.
100.) A cake sits out in the open on a small table, looks edible enough.
 100a.) This cake is actually real cake.

99b / 100b) Anyone who eats a slice no longer needs to drink for a full year, their thirst quenched by how delicious and moist the cake is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 01:09:10 am

100c.) This Endless Quench extends to beneficial liquids as well, and they can't drink potions because nothing happens.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 01:11:16 am

Quote from: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 01:06:43 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 17, 2016, 11:35:05 pm

99.)  A cake sits out in the open on a small table, looks edible enough.  Dessert in the Desert.

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 18, 2016, 12:25:46 am

99a.) Upon touching the cake, a pure energy golem appears. It simply says "The cake is false," and the cake reveals itself to be an illusion cast by the golem. The golem gives the party [# of party members] x 100 gold each and then leaves.
100.) A cake sits out in the open on a small table, looks edible enough.
 100a.) This cake is actually real cake.

99b / 100b) Anyone who eats a slice no longer needs to drink for a full year, their thirst quenched by how delicious and moist the cake is.

But they constantly feel like they have to pee, due to a combination of magical hys=dration and magical diabetes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 18, 2016, 01:58:01 am

101.) Some sort wheeled ship appears. You're being attacked by sand pirates.

Alright, that's enough desert encounters, though people are of course free to come up with more. So for the next encounter table, I propose dungeons:

1) You meet a goblin, who offers to show you a secret passage in exchange for a bit of gold.
2) Troll stampede! (Or whatever kind of monster DM prefers.)
3) You come across a supply shop. Don't try anything funny.
4) You find an underground lake, which may or may not contain a giant squid.
5) You discover some sort of dungeon town or city, with houses made of scavenged bits and monster parts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 02:03:46 am

plz stop

This stuff's gonna end up on Buzzfeed. "101 desert encounters, you'll be shocked by number 89!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 02:05:51 am

6.) After a lengthy fight between some bandits in the dungeon, the party comes across an incredibly tall orc with no shirt and at least ten abs. For whatever reason, he's permanently oiled up. And actually not trying to murder them. And really likes bear hugs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 18, 2016, 02:16:05 am

7 ) The leader of the orc bandits offers single combat instead of a bloody melee that will see him and his kin killed. His choice of duel: pro wrestling. They even have a ring set up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 02:25:53 am

7a.) The party wizard can, should they have the right History knowledge, convince the orc bandit that pro wrestling is actually fake. The orc concedes he knew, and just really wanted to try out his pro wrestling moves.
 7aa.) Should the party pro wrestle him after the knowledge check, he kicks their ass into the goddamn ground and then gives them a sick greatsword after.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 02:31:53 am

Quote from: Kadzar on January 18, 2016, 01:58:01 am

Alright, that's enough desert encounters, though people are of course free to come up with more. So for the next encounter table, I propose dungeons:

1) You meet a goblin, who offers to show you a secret passage in exchange for a bit of gold.
2) Troll stampede! (Or whatever kind of monster DM prefers.)
3) You come across a supply shop. Don't try anything funny.
4) You find an underground lake, which may or may not contain a giant squid.
5) You discover some sort of dungeon town or city, with houses made of scavenged bits and monster parts.

Wait. Dungeons or Underdark?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 02:40:05 am

Gonna rip off one of the Glorantha books:

8.) The Black Lake: This colossal underground lake whirls and sloshes with eerie tides, as if the water is being churned by huge beasts below the impenetrable black waters.
8a.) Any sort of detection spell reveals naught but vast living ‘shapes’ roiling around in the depths here.
8b.) The water of the Black Lake is always hot to the touch, so hot that it nears boiling at times.
8c.) Those who taste it say it tastes salty but more with the taste of sweat rather than sea salt.

Put their goal on the other side and I promise you no fucking player is going to ever go near that lake. They will rather carve a tunnel to the other side of the lake than go across it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 18, 2016, 02:42:13 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 18, 2016, 02:25:53 am

7a.) The party wizard can, should they have the right History knowledge, convince the orc bandit that pro wrestling is actually fake. The orc concedes he knew, and just really wanted to try out his pro wrestling moves.
 7aa.) Should the party pro wrestle him after the knowledge check, he kicks their ass into the goddamn ground and then gives them a sick greatsword after.

7b ) The Orc merely pretends to concede; in actuality his wrestling gear is enchanted so that he can effortlessly pull off the acrobatics required to perform pro-wrestling moves while inflicting real injuries on his foes.
7c ) The orc is fully aware that wrestling is fake; in order to win the "match" the chosen party member must be both athletic and able to put on an entertaining performance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 18, 2016, 02:44:50 am

9) An orc wizard and cleric ask if you've seen their fighters and "that damn thief we let out of sight".
10) A row of manacles, skeletons, and cells...  Like a dungeon
11) A trapped chest containing nothing but a note in Giant.  "Your loot is in another pocket - Troll Face the Rogue"
12) An immaculately clean but unattended library under a silence spell.  All is well unless a book is harmed or removed.
13) Behind a secret door, a lead-lined chamber under antimagic.  A council of robed monks look up at your unwelcome disturbance.
14) There is a bridge over a channel of glowing green ooze.  The ooze is harmless, the bridge is a mimic.
15) A drow representative tries to hire you to retrieve an item of power from a "surface crawl".
16) Earth elementals perform an intricate, almost melodic dance in this chamber.  They insist it's of ritual importance.  Anyone crossing the chamber risks being crushed.  But their movements are theoretically predictable, a time based maze-puzzle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 02:51:11 am

A lot of these sound more like cave/underdark encounters

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 02:52:57 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 02:51:11 am

A lot of these sound more like cave/underdark encounters

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 02:56:42 am

17.) An orc, a dragon and an elemental are all sitting in a room with suspiciously soft flooring. They are none too happy to see the party... at first. Their advances are clear but polite.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 03:24:13 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 18, 2016, 02:56:42 am

17.) An orc, a dragon and an elemental are all sitting in a room with a suspiciously soft flooring. They are none too happy to see the party... at first. Their advances are clear but polite.

Everything makes sense now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 03:55:45 am

Come on... You couldn't say no to that face, that snout, and that vaguely face-like conglomerate of magical energy, could you? It'll only be a few hours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 03:59:41 am

If D&D went by the Babylonian idea of genetics, you'd end up with a half-dragon, half-elemental templated half-orc who is half human. I'd say at that point you can go for a gestalt class since you're 200% of a person.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 04:03:34 am

Assuming the party is more than just one person pretending to be every class at once, being 200% of a person is no issue.
Especially since an all-female party is rather unlikely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 18, 2016, 05:10:48 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 02:51:11 am

A lot of these sound more like cave/underdark encounters

I dunno how it is in official material...  I always thought that Underdark creatures had a tendency to pop up in deep dungeons though.  Even though they just live nearby, not inside the dungeon like orcs and oozes and things.  Dunno though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 18, 2016, 09:32:59 am

18) The next room you enter is a rather large one. Full of top hats. Some enchanted, some... cursed. Some that will explode if you get near.
19) A tunnel, yeh? Seems normal- wait why am I in your body!
20) GM's Choice
21) You open the door and coffee floods out of it.
22) And behold, the mighty Coffee Archmage! He's lost and wants to join your party so he can get back to his tower on another plane.
23) Roll on the Desert Encounters table. Just do it.
24) Roll on the City Encounters table. Yes. Do it.
25) Roll twice on this table. And combine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 18, 2016, 11:28:06 am

26. Roll on any table.
27. Roll on any two tables and combine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 02:01:28 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 18, 2016, 05:10:48 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 02:51:11 am

A lot of these sound more like cave/underdark encounters

I dunno how it is in official material...  I always thought that Underdark creatures had a tendency to pop up in deep dungeons though.  Even though they just live nearby, not inside the dungeon like orcs and oozes and things.  Dunno though.

Only in Diablo I/Dwarf Fortress/Tower of Mzark style dungeons that penetrate into natural cave complezes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 18, 2016, 02:05:27 pm

28) You encounter a table. It rolls on you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 18, 2016, 02:06:39 pm

Jokes are fun.  Taking a good idea and running with it is fun.  Combining the two is hilarious but also a massive derail, please remain on topic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 02:08:12 pm

29.) You encounter a chest. It's completely untrapped and has no magic on it whatsoever. Inside is a note that says "Turn around." Upon turning around, the party sees a second chest that is as safe as the first. Inside is a note that says "Look in the first chest." The first chest is closed and inside there is now a ton of valuables.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 18, 2016, 02:09:41 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on January 18, 2016, 02:06:39 pm

Jokes are fun.  Taking a good idea and running with it is fun.  Combining the two is hilarious but also a massive derail, please remain on topic.

Generating random encounters is off-topic?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 18, 2016, 02:10:47 pm

No, but going from actual dungeon encounters to "roll from a completely unrelated table of encounters, then do it again, and combine them" is unrelated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 18, 2016, 02:11:07 pm

Ah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 18, 2016, 03:15:46 pm

Yeah it is fun but it is just becoming a huge derail and I am all for temporary derails, I think conversations move and evolve, but this is reaching for complete derail territory.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 18, 2016, 03:21:04 pm

Muh build's unviable. I thought that with each Dragon Totem Rage Power (http://archivesofnethys.com/BarbarianRagePowers.aspx) I took, I would gain 2 Damage Reduction and elemental resistance equal to double my DR. Turns out that's not what it means that each totem adds 2 DR. It means that it counts as 2 higher for the purposes of determining elemental resistances.

For a game with so much focus on the wording, the books don't seem to work that way. I learn more from the official messageboards than the actual books.

Now how am I gonna cheese my way to 30 DR? But seriously, a lot of my plans get shut down by dubious wordings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 18, 2016, 03:39:24 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 18, 2016, 03:21:04 pm

Muh build's unviable. I thought that with each Dragon Totem Rage Power (http://archivesofnethys.com/BarbarianRagePowers.aspx) I took, I would gain 2 Damage Reduction and elemental resistance equal to double my DR. Turns out that's not what it means that each totem adds 2 DR. It means that it counts as 2 higher for the purposes of determining elemental resistances.

For a game with so much focus on the wording, the books don't seem to work that way. I learn more from the official messageboards than the actual books.

Now how am I gonna cheese my way to 30 DR? But seriously, a lot of my plans get shut down by dubious wordings.

What? There's no way that wording means anything other than stacking DR.

It might be errata to change it because it's broken, but who cares?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 18, 2016, 06:57:38 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 18, 2016, 03:15:46 pm

Yeah it is fun but it is just becoming a huge derail and I am all for temporary derails, I think conversations move and evolve, but this is reaching for complete derail territory.

Plus this latest list was kind of off-track from the start.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 19, 2016, 08:37:30 pm

Can we give this current list a pass and either go on to the next theme or else restart with actual dungeon encounters?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 19, 2016, 09:37:02 pm

I think we've veen told to stop it, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 19, 2016, 10:12:10 pm

If you guys want to make lists of encounters/hooks that's fine, I'd just like to keep the jokes more in-flavor, rather than meta.  So feel free, but don't abuse it please.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on January 19, 2016, 11:05:20 pm

so 30) It seems to be a relatively normal dungeon room. Except the floor is on the ceiling and vice versa.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 19, 2016, 11:26:04 pm

 30a.) The floor (which is the cieling) is actually a trapdoor, leading into a deep pit. The pit throws everyone back out of the entrance of the dungeon, should they bother to fly all the way up it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 19, 2016, 11:29:24 pm

31) You find a room with some sort of large metal box with blinking lights and tiny levers which fills up half the room from floor to ceiling. A scroll endlessly spools out of a slot at about shoulder height at various intervals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 19, 2016, 11:54:29 pm

32 ) With a low groaning sound, a disembodied hand descends from the ceiling and attempts to grab one of the party members. If it grabs someone, the rest of the party has a single combat turn to kill the creature (it is not very tough) or it and the trapped character will return to the entrance of the dungeon (the character taking a small amount of damage in the process). If the hand fails to grab someone, it returns to the shadows unless killed, at which point it is gone forever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 20, 2016, 12:14:16 am

33.) With a low growling sound, a shirtless ogre descends from the darkness and attempts to grab one of the party members. If he grabs someone, the rest of the party has as many combat turns to kill the ogre as they wish (he is not very aggressive) or he and the trapped character will be trapped in an endless bear hug  (the character taking a small amount of damage in the process. He tries, oh so hard, to be gentle.) If the ogre fails to grab someone, he politely requests a consented hug from someone unless killed, at which point he is gone forever. You monster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: birdy51 on January 20, 2016, 12:24:13 am

34.) Surprise Drow Beach Party at the underground lake!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 20, 2016, 12:25:13 am

35.)You're invited.
35a.)It's actually not a trap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 20, 2016, 12:56:55 am

36) You come across a large wall-sized mirror, big enough to see your whole party in at once. Suddenly, you notice that one or more of your party member(s) is missing, but their image is still reflected by the mirror.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 02:05:50 am

Quote from: Kadzar on January 20, 2016, 12:56:55 am

36) You come across a large wall-sized mirror, big enough to see your whole party in at once. Suddenly, you notice that one or more of your party member(s) is missing, but their image is still reflected by the mirror.

Like a reverse-vampire...

anyway

37.) container-on-a-string-swinging-down-from-the-ceiling-based traps a la Home Alone
38.) Portal in the back of a wardrobe leads to another wardrobe in the same building
39.) stone wall is camoflaged earth elemental

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 18, 2016, 02:09:41 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on January 18, 2016, 02:06:39 pm

Jokes are fun.  Taking a good idea and running with it is fun.  Combining the two is hilarious but also a massive derail, please remain on topic.

Generating random encounters is off-topic?

Ot is when the theme is of a sort where it's difficult to tell whether it's overly vague or overly specific but the question is moot because half the answers fall outside of it anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 20, 2016, 02:46:46 am

40. You hear yipping voices ahead. Turning the corner, you spot a half dozen kobolds trying to push a giant stone boulder up a ramp to reload a trap. It appears they are helpless to defend themselves, as letting go of the boulder would surely kill them.
41. There's a hole in the wall as wide as your fist that goes back almost as far as you can reach. You can faintly see the shape of a handle at the very end, but you'd likely have to reach in up to your shoulder to grab it.
42. The floor of this room is covered in black sand, and the air is heavy with the smell of iron and blood.
43. The walls of this room are scrawled with graffiti. [If a character can read Goblin] It would appear goblins once lived here, and one of them left a poem behind:
There once was a smart goblin thief,
Who liked to cause farmers much grief,
To their cows he would run,
Cut their legs off for fun,
And say "Look! Me invented ground beef!"
44. A trio of gnomes, two of them hauling a large treasure chest between them, stand at an intersection while the third one tries to read a map.
45. You see a large barrel clearly labelled "WARNING: NOT BEER"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 07:15:30 am

So I was creating a TON of Living spells

I kind of hit a snag as I realized they actually increased in damage WAY WAY faster then they increased in HP (I might redo them and give them a update... maybe Con = 10 + Circlex2)

---

Also what are you doing 5e?

You have ONE Monster Manual... you have four adventure paths soon to be 5 (Might have miscounted) and they are ALL for levels up to 10. Of those only ONE had substantial monsters of their own.

You actually have more hypothetical stat blocks for creatures you don't even fight in the adventure path (sort of) which is awesome if you got to level 20... ohh wait :P

Seriously 5e two things
1) Higher level adventure paths
2) MAGIC ITEMS DANG IT!!!
3) Monster Manual 2

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on January 20, 2016, 07:27:54 am

Can't comment on the adventure paths, but there are plenty of magic items in the DMG - about 75-100 pages iirc.

On the monster manuals, it's somewhat lacking on higher level monsters, but 5e is very much a low powered game I feel, and with bounded accuracy and a touch of Tucker's kobolds you can still make challenging encounters fairly easily.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 07:46:23 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on January 20, 2016, 07:27:54 am

Can't comment on the adventure paths, but there are plenty of magic items in the DMG - about 75-100 pages iirc.

On the monster manuals, it's somewhat lacking on higher level monsters, but 5e is very much a low powered game I feel, and with bounded accuracy and a touch of Tucker's kobolds you can still make challenging encounters fairly easily.

Well Monsters rarely become outdated.

Even with a level 20 party a CR 1 monster can actually manage to be a decent minion.

Unlike... say... Pathfinder, 3.5... where the PCs just hit a armor cap or a hit chance gap.

---

For stupidity sake here is my monster.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/2nusod5.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 10:58:37 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 07:15:30 am

Seriously 5e two things
1) Higher level adventure paths
2) MAGIC ITEMS DANG IT!!!
3) Monster Manual 2

A. We must have different definitions of the number 2.
B. Out of the Abyss was to 15, Tyranny of Dragons was to 15, and Princes of the Apocalypse was to 15. And that is a problem. I've been running Tyranny of Dragons on these very forums for almost an entire year, and I'm still only on chapter 3 out of 17. At this rate, I'm going to be playing it for another five years. An adventure that goes from 1 to 20? You've got to be kidding me. And an adventure from 15 to 20 raises a lot of questions about character creation.
C. What kind of magic items are you looking for? Check out this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396519-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium) page for some homebrew items.
D. Yeah, a MM2 would be cool, but I find that any MM after the first one starts to have some weird and silly stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on January 20, 2016, 11:24:01 am

Just started running a D&D 5e game.  All new players...except for one experienced player who decided to play a Chaotic Neutral barbarian.  ::) 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 11:53:56 am

According to this, (http://merricb.com/2015/11/23/chris-perkins-on-upcoming-dd-storylines-and-products/) WOTC has no interest in releasing product unless it has a story to tell (No MM2?!). Gone are the days where it were bound by the requirement to release a book (or more) a month. This is partly driven by business realities; partly driven by knowledge of facts gained through surveys and face-to-face discussion at conventions. They’ve found there is a limit to how much material people can absorb. After a while, the material they release has no value and is no longer serving anybody. A lot of 3rd and 4th edition products were bought and never used or used very little.
“We don’t sell products so that 5% of our audience can use 5% of it. We’re now trying to sell products that 100% of our audience might use and they’ll use all of it.”
This improves the perceived value of D&D, and creates more shared experiences, the way that everyone knows Tomb of Horrors. The goal is to create stories that (hopefully) years from now people can remember.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 11:59:02 am

I don't like it. I'm against it.

Doesn't matter for me though since I long ago decided I'm never buying anything from WoTC (or possibly even Hasboro in general) again

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 20, 2016, 12:01:03 pm

Quote from: Ghills on January 20, 2016, 11:24:01 am

Just started running a D&D 5e game.  All new players...except for one experienced player who decided to play a Chaotic Neutral barbarian.  ::) 

is this bad?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 07:15:30 am

So I was creating a TON of Living spells

I kind of hit a snag as I realized they actually increased in damage WAY WAY faster then they increased in HP (I might redo them and give them a update... maybe Con = 10 + Circlex2)

---

Also what are you doing 5e?

You have ONE Monster Manual... you have four adventure paths soon to be 5 (Might have miscounted) and they are ALL for levels up to 10. Of those only ONE had substantial monsters of their own.

You actually have more hypothetical stat blocks for creatures you don't even fight in the adventure path (sort of) which is awesome if you got to level 20... ohh wait :P

Seriously 5e two things
1) Higher level adventure paths
2) MAGIC ITEMS DANG IT!!!
3) Monster Manual 2

As Immaterial said they want everyone to play the adventures they tell them to and no one to make up their own stuff

Any additional material hurts this cause

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 20, 2016, 12:01:03 pm

Quote from: Ghills on January 20, 2016, 11:24:01 am

Just started running a D&D 5e game.  All new players...except for one experienced player who decided to play a Chaotic Neutral barbarian.  ::) 

is this bad?

He said it's a 5e game, so yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 12:35:31 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

As Immaterial said they want everyone to play the adventures they tell them to and no one to make up their own stuff

That's not what I said.
It's also not true. According to WOTC, 55% of D&D players play homebrewed games (I imagine the real number is higher, but that's beside the point), and 50% of those people play in WOTC settings. 70% of those play in Forgotten realms, which means 90% of their playerbase plays in the Realms. Which is why they released the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, "it was born out of feedback that DMs wanted some introduction to the Realms... but not so much that they drowned in the details – an ongoing problem the Realms has had."

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

Any additional material hurts this cause

Because... why? I'm legitimately interested in why you think this. I think I understand why, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

He said it's a 5e game, so yeah.

Seriously, the funniest thing I've heard today.
Sounds like someone's salty.
Would you like to elaborate on that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 12:41:44 pm

I'd say too much material can potentially hurt play.

Homebrew can conflict with established setting canon, an such.

Power Creeping from the countless books that used to be pushed out, and from the countless other third party publishers/homebrewers.

Conflicting or redundant abilities or rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 12:53:55 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 12:41:44 pm

I'd say too much material can potentially hurt play.
Power Creeping from the countless books that used to be pushed out, and from the countless other third party publishers/homebrewers.

I'm not contesting that, and neither is WOTC. There’s a “World of Warcraft” model Wizards is using: they want to release a mammoth, not a bunch of mice, and would rather wait for a year or two for each big release. This allows time for people to experience it and give feedback on it for future releases. The lead story designer said this, and, while I used it before, it's really good, and I'm going to use it again: “We don’t sell products so that 5% of our audience can use 5% of it. We’re now trying to sell products that 100% of our audience might use and they’ll use all of it.”
And if you don't like homebrew or third party material, no one's forcing you to use it.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 12:41:44 pm

Homebrew can conflict with established setting canon, an such.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Am I right in assuming that you're trying to say that WOTC doesn't like homebrewed games because it conflicts with the established canon? Because, frankly, the established canon of FR is stupid on so many levels.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 12:41:44 pm

Conflicting or redundant abilities or rules.

In 5e? What? Really? What? Do you have an example?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 01:12:33 pm

I'm being a little more general, actually. Sorry, I should have said that first.

Though some people can be pretty uppity if you touch their precious lore, no matter how little sense that lore makes. Like Pathfinder, where high-fantasy can meet the Cthulhu Mythos, and aliens, robots, high-tech weaponry, steampunk stuff, etc.

There's an Adventure Path where you travel through time and space to go punch Rasputin in the face during the ass-end of World War 1.

I haven't played 5e, but I have seen examples in Pathfinder. Paizo, who owns PF, puts out at least two splatbooks a month. I've seen a few feats that are basically clones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 20, 2016, 01:18:06 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 01:12:33 pm

There's an Adventure Path where you travel through time and space to go punch Rasputin in the face during the ass-end of World War 1.

That sounds amazing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 01:19:03 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 01:12:33 pm

Though some people can be pretty uppity if you touch their precious lore, no matter how little sense that lore makes. Like Pathfinder, where high-fantasy can meet the Cthulhu Mythos, and aliens, robots, high-tech weaponry, steampunk stuff, etc.
There's an Adventure Path where you travel through time and space to go punch Rasputin in the face during the ass-end of World War 1.

That sounds really awesome, actually.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 01:12:33 pm

I haven't played 5e, but I have seen examples in Pathfinder. Paizo, who owns PF, puts out at least two splatbooks a month. I've seen a few feats that are basically clones.

That's one of the things that really turned me off Pathfinder; the bloat. Too many options, I found, was a bad thing. 5e has released one splatbook, AFAIK.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 20, 2016, 01:25:45 pm

One of the biggest problems with Pathfinder is the unceasing feats. It's very much a case of scope creep... In a pen and paper game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 02:31:15 pm

Also don't get too stuck on what he said over the sentiment behind it.

I always felt as a DM that you needed exactly two monster manuals to get a firm amount of them.

As for the number of magic items the biggest limitation that turns it from "a lot" to "deceptively little" is the fact that there are a thousand magic weapons for swords but none for say... A throwing dagger or Pikes beyond just "Magic weapon".

This is why I wanted exactly one magic item book. The adventure paths do not really supply extra magic items mostly because they are designed to work for that setting but no where else. Some of them might as well be "The Sword of this adventure only" which is great! but isn't a replacement.

Quote

5e has released one splatbook, AFAIK

Nope. One setting book.

Edit: Nope I am wrong it apparently counts as a splat too

Though it is kind of Splat-light. It isn't a dedicated splat book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 20, 2016, 03:34:54 pm

I'm not sure if it's caused by this or it's just a random connection my brain is making, but I feel like having lots of material can hurt because it causes players to want to make a bunch of different characters, rather than sticking with one for a long time, because there's a lot of material for character creation, but, if you want to change up your character down the line, there's not as many good options (you can multi-class, but a character is usually best built for that from the start, so you might as well just start over).

I'll admit that, while I love playing D&D and it's milieu in general, it's actual rules (for all editions) often make me feel wanting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 03:46:21 pm

If pathfinder didn't have so many feats, we wouldn't have experienced the glory that is sacred geometry! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry)

-----

Another thing.  I want to convert/run the original Keep on the Borderlands in 5th Ed.  Anyone have any tips for attempting this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 20, 2016, 03:50:36 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 03:46:21 pm

If pathfinder didn't have so many feats, we wouldn't have experienced the glory that is sacred geometry! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry)

Holy shit it's the Final Fantasy Tactics mathematician class
as a FEAT
And maybe slightly less OP, though who knows

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 20, 2016, 03:53:32 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 03:46:21 pm

If pathfinder didn't have so many feats, we wouldn't have experienced the glory that is sacred geometry! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry)

As I like to call it: Countdown number magic.

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 03:46:21 pm

Another thing.  I want to convert/run the original Keep on the Borderlands in 5th Ed.  Anyone have any tips for attempting this?

Yes, play an OSR variant instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 20, 2016, 04:36:56 pm

Quote from: nullBolt on January 20, 2016, 03:53:32 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 03:46:21 pm

Another thing.  I want to convert/run the original Keep on the Borderlands in 5th Ed.  Anyone have any tips for attempting this?

Yes, play an OSR variant instead.

This sort of thing is never a helpful response.

But were you the one talking about OSR stuff before? Is there any you'd recommend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 04:41:10 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 03:46:21 pm

Another thing.  I want to convert/run the original Keep on the Borderlands in 5th Ed.  Anyone have any tips for attempting this?

You may find this helpful. (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2011/03/on-osr-rosetta-stone.html)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 20, 2016, 04:58:03 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on January 20, 2016, 04:36:56 pm

This sort of thing is never a helpful response.

But were you the one talking about OSR stuff before? Is there any you'd recommend.

It is the best advice, though. It's best to run an OSR campaign using OSR rules. Modern rules just don't hold the same feeling and weight to them.

Spoiler: General OSR Advice (click to show/hide)

- You're the DM.
- The rules aren't comprehensive, don't expect them to be.
- You are the rules. What you say is what goes.
- Characters are quick and easy to build.
- Tell players to have back up characters even if you don't think you're going to kill them. Keeps them on edge.
- Character differentiation is through roleplaying, not through builds.
- Randomly make up magical items. Don't tailor them to your players.
- Try to keep the players hungry. They should always JUST have enough.
- Don't be afraid to beat the shit out of them.

It depends on what you're going for. Keep in mind that OSR tries to be as simple as possible across the board because most designers believe that a lot of complexity should rest on the backs of the GM. Don't expect "Buy this feat to get a +1 to damage when you jump attack".

I'd recommend:
Swords & Wizardy for pure fantasy action. Very simple, very solid, very good.

ACKS for fantasy action that avoids the leveling problem. It's designed so the players start off as adventurers and then, as they start to get too powerful, it begins to change into a kingdom building and ruling game. It's pretty exceptional.

Dungeon Crawl Classics for fucked up fantasy action. It's recommended players start off with 4 randomly generated level 0 characters and whatever ones survive to get to level 1 they can choose as a character. As an example of other fucked up ness, mages are linked inherently to a patron who grants them their magic. Every magic spell has a chance of tainting the mage and causing him to take on magical corruption (which usually manifests as some sort of magical deformity). DCC magic is probably my favourite magic because it's dangerous to everyone.

Lamentations of the Flame Princess if you want to use one of their standard campaigns, one of which is set in a fantasyised 17th century Europe where the players have 14 days before the Swedish invade and it's got a bunch of different possible outcomes depending on who they side with. Also, their modules are probably the best, most depressing and creepiest. I'd find a way to integrate them into another system.

Stars Without Number as a solid final mention if you want to run a space-based OSR game. I've heard good things about Labyrinth Lord, which the developers of Stars Without Number made, but I haven't had a chance to read through it yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 12:35:31 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

Any additional material hurts this cause

Because... why? I'm legitimately interested in why you think this. I think I understand why, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Because then they have a less severely limited toolset to craft their own stuff with.

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 12:35:31 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

He said it's a 5e game, so yeah.

Seriously, the funniest thing I've heard today.
Sounds like someone's salty.
Would you like to elaborate on that?

Pathfinder is the true successor to D&D 3e. Official D&D is little more than a crazy steward throwing live people onto funeral pyres.

To speak more seriously, new editions seem to be coming out more frequently and I think it's a cash grab. Plus the BS with 4e put me off of WoTC forever. 5e may very well be better than 4e, but then Castro was better than Stalin. It won't last anyway even if it is good; WoTC is a subsidiary of Hasboro and whenever Hasboro makes anything good they always do something later to ruin it.

Quote from: nullBolt on January 20, 2016, 04:58:03 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on January 20, 2016, 04:36:56 pm

This sort of thing is never a helpful response.

But were you the one talking about OSR stuff before? Is there any you'd recommend.

It is the best advice, though. It's best to run an OSR campaign using OSR rules. Modern rules just don't hold the same feeling and weight to them.

What the heck is OSR?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 05:12:23 pm

Blah di blah I want people to see this

My created monsters
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155678.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155678.0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 20, 2016, 05:16:36 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

What the heck is OSR?

Old School Renaissance. Pen and paper systems that try to emulate pre-3rd edition D&D.

There's a lot of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 05:17:54 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

What the heck is OSR?

As far as I understand, a remake of classic D&D.


I do have the option of just running KotB with 1st ed AD&D rather than converting it to 5th

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:21:10 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 05:17:54 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

What the heck is OSR?

As far as I understand, a remake of classic D&D.


I do have the option of just running KotB with 1st ed AD&D rather than converting it to 5th

That sounds like a much more palatable option to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 20, 2016, 05:23:01 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 05:17:54 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

What the heck is OSR?

As far as I understand, a remake of classic D&D.

I do have the option of just running KotB with 1st ed AD&D rather than converting it to 5th

Personally I recommend ACKS for KotB. I think there's a post over on Autarch's actual play forum (http://autarch.co/forums/actual-play) where they played KotB.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:37:47 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 12:53:55 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 20, 2016, 12:41:44 pm

I'd say too much material can potentially hurt play.
Power Creeping from the countless books that used to be pushed out, and from the countless other third party publishers/homebrewers.

I'm not contesting that, and neither is WOTC. There’s a “World of Warcraft” model Wizards is using: they want to release a mammoth, not a bunch of mice, and would rather wait for a year or two for each big release.

So now even their business model is stolen from World of Warcraft?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 06:00:36 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 12:35:31 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

Any additional material hurts this cause

Because... why? I'm legitimately interested in why you think this. I think I understand why, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Because then they have a less severely limited toolset to craft their own stuff with.

I'm not really seeing a legitimate point here. All I'm seeing is "People are making things for a thing I don't like, and I don't like that."

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

Pathfinder is the true successor to D&D 3e. Official D&D is little more than a crazy steward throwing live people onto funeral pyres.

Pathfinder is like the western Roman Empire during its fall, bloated, and falling into decadence. :P The problems of power creep and complexity that 3e had are only magnified by Pathfinder's bloat.

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

To speak more seriously, new editions seem to be coming out more frequently and I think it's a cash grab. Plus the BS with 4e put me off of WoTC forever. 5e may very well be better than 4e, but then Castro was better than Stalin. It won't last anyway even if it is good; WoTC is a subsidiary of Hasboro and whenever Hasboro makes anything good they always do something later to ruin it.

I respect where you're coming from, but it's important to remember the context of 5e in its relationship to 4e. 4e was panned. Across the board. This, we can all agree on. It was a Hasbro cash grab. Then, they realized that people weren't interested in a tactical boardgame labeled D&D. So, 5e was the apology game. They reached out to players, and said, 'hey, what do you want D&D to be like?' If 5e was a cash grab, then we would be seeing far more splat books for it. We wouldn't be seeing an SRD or the Basic Rules packets. We'd be seeing splatbooks every month or two.

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

It won't last anyway even if it is good; WoTC is a subsidiary of Hasboro and whenever Hasboro makes anything good they always do something later to ruin it.

Hmm? Oh, yeah, I totally remember how 3.5 was a cash grab by Hasbro. I mean, have you seen how many source books there are for that game? Have you ever used half of the ones they wanted you to buy?
Don't be all high and mighty about 3.5 and Pathfinder, they've got no cleaner hands than 5e.

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:37:47 pm

So now even their business model is stolen from World of Warcraft?

A. It's an example. B. It works. C. I could make a joke about how Paizo stole their business model from mobile games' microtransactions, but I won't, despite the fact that I just did.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 07:27:52 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on January 18, 2016, 01:58:01 am

1) You meet a goblin, who offers to show you a secret passage in exchange for a bit of gold.
2) Troll stampede! (Or whatever kind of monster DM prefers.)
3) You come across a supply shop. Don't try anything funny.
4) You find an underground lake, which may or may not contain a giant squid.
5) You discover some sort of dungeon town or city, with houses made of scavenged bits and monster parts.

46.) ceiling collapse

Quote from: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 02:31:15 pm

As for the number of magic items the biggest limitation that turns it from "a lot" to "deceptively little" is the fact that there are a thousand magic weapons for swords but none for say... A throwing dagger or Pikes beyond just "Magic weapon".

That could be our next list then

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 07:28:24 pm

Also boo you guys! I wanted comments :P

Anyhow I am thinking of changing the way I create the Living spells. Lowering their Dex but leaving it relevant, stabilizing their Charisma, Wisdom is fine... As well for the stronger ones I am thinking of giving them a Discharge basically a recharged attack that increases the damage of ANY of their attacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 20, 2016, 08:09:11 pm

Personally, I'd say Living Spells are fine as written. I'd treat their placement more like a trap than a monster though. It's essentially a high damage effect that's pretty easy to bypass if you're prepared. Use them as support for other monsters. A wizard looking to defend himself would probably pair a Living Fireball with an Iron Golem, for example, or a Living Lightning Bolt with a Flesh Golem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 08:48:28 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 20, 2016, 08:09:11 pm

Personally, I'd say Living Spells are fine as written. I'd treat their placement more like a trap than a monster though. It's essentially a high damage effect that's pretty easy to bypass if you're prepared. Use them as support for other monsters. A wizard looking to defend himself would probably pair a Living Fireball with an Iron Golem, for example, or a Living Lightning Bolt with a Flesh Golem.

Thanks a ton for the comment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 20, 2016, 09:42:24 pm

Okay guys, warning time, the OP clearly states that comparing various editions is outside of this thread's scope.  While it has quieted down now, the last page of discussion came very close to violating that rule, so it is being restated here:

From the outset I want a few things clear, DO NOT engage in 'version X is better than version Y' discussion/argument, I will lock down the thread and report the parties responsible. (Even if it's me.)

Please refrain from further discussion of versions except to respond to rules questions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 09:50:22 pm

Okay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SimRobert2001 on January 20, 2016, 10:10:30 pm

I once had a party enter a bar, while being entertained by dwarves. There was an orgy at some point. Since this was all over the internet, cybersex was involved, and the game was called.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 21, 2016, 02:11:34 am

47.) Floor collapse
48.) Wall collapse

EDIT:
49.) Wall slides into place behind you, preventing retreat
50.) Graffiti scratched on the walls

EDIT:
Regarding the idea of wizards possibly being overpowered: It occurs to me that this really depends on the DM, and in particular how the DM handles resting and downtime. As long as it's not treated like a videogame where you can rest in the middle of hostile territory and/or commute to and from your assault on the dungeon they shouldn't be too powerful. I think a big issue is that their main balancing factor is so often handwaved away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 07:37:27 am

I know that if the party is at a low level Wizards-type enemies are a LOT more powerful then they seem because the party has yet to develop the HP buffer to survive even the attrition damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: birdy51 on January 21, 2016, 08:07:06 am

51.) Cuddly insects try to steal your cutlery.

52.) The further you go into the cave, the larger the nearby cave creatures seem to be getting.

53.) The walls of the cave begin to beat with an intense samba rhythm.

54.) You run upon a group of adventurers that are a mirror version of the party going the other way. Good is Evil and Evil is Good. If pricked or attacked, they explode violently like balloons. You fear for your sanity.

55.) Hobgoblin square dancing. They invite the party to join in on the fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:20:39 am

Once you reach a certain level, a wizard can commute to and from a dungeon, though. That's pretty much what the Teleport line of spells are for. So you bring the party along to deal with random encounters on the journey, find the big boss and Teleport away in retreat, rest until you're fully prepared and then Teleport back in to ruin his day. Adventuring becomes a day job, and you commute back home whenever you're finished.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 08:29:35 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:20:39 am

Once you reach a certain level, a wizard can commute to and from a dungeon, though. That's pretty much what the Teleport line of spells are for. So you bring the party along to deal with random encounters on the journey, find the big boss and Teleport away in retreat, rest until you're fully prepared and then Teleport back in to ruin his day. Adventuring becomes a day job, and you commute back home whenever you're finished.

A lot of places are going to lock you down by preventing that sort of business, though. Anti-teleport magics are pretty standard in fantasy settings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:44:43 am

Aside from DM fiat 'nope, doesn't work because of some kind of plot device,' you've got extraplanar adventures where a Plane Shift functions pretty much the same, or locations that are subject to spells such as 7th level Teleport Trap or 8th level Dimensional Lock. Of course, both of these effects are subject to good old level 3 Dispel Magic. Any Wizard worth his spellbook should have detected the presence of those spells and countered them long before they're a problem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 08:48:21 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:44:43 am

Aside from DM fiat 'nope, doesn't work because of some kind of plot device,' you've got extraplanar adventures where a Plane Shift functions pretty much the same, or locations that are subject to spells such as 7th level Teleport Trap or 8th level Dimensional Lock. Of course, both of these effects are subject to good old level 3 Dispel Magic. Any Wizard worth his spellbook should have detected the presence of those spells and countered them long before they're a problem.

I tell players at the start of every campaign that the overwhelming majority of "dungeons" are magical areas where stuff like this just doesn't work.

Either that or disappearing for six hours let's them organise in a way you just aren't expecting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:58:58 am

Then you're just handwaving away the issue? Disappointing. At the end of the day, Rule 0 gets used because the DM can't handle players using core game rules as written. Why not simply ban the teleportation school of magic too? Or say that nobody's allowed to play a spellcaster? Doesn't sound like much fun to me, but every table's different. At our table, we're all 100% for playing the game within the written rules. The DM rolls his dice in the open, and if that means your character eats a critical when they're on low hp, you'd better have prepared your backup PC. By the same token, if there's a class feature that's part of your character's build, it's considered bad form to say you're banning it simply because it makes winning easier.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 09:01:32 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:58:58 am

because it makes winning easier.

::)

Play how you like but I think that's showed why your mindset is completely and utterly wrong. At least to the vast majority of groups.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 09:08:31 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:58:58 am

Then you're just handwaving away the issue? Disappointing. At the end of the day, Rule 0 gets used because the DM can't handle players using core game rules as written. Why not simply ban the teleportation school of magic too? Or say that nobody's allowed to play a spellcaster? Doesn't sound like much fun to me, but every table's different. At our table, we're all 100% for playing the game within the written rules. The DM rolls his dice in the open, and if that means your character eats a critical when they're on low hp, you'd better have prepared your backup PC. By the same token, if there's a class feature that's part of your character's build, it's considered bad form to say you're banning it simply because it makes winning easier.

Because they are VERY useful and perfectly viable... until players try to cheap their way through it.

And Teleport does have some pretty firmly established counters such as "You teleported into a wall" that would be punishing if the DM used. Often just saying "For some reason, you do not know of, you cannot seem to teleport to that location as if it is cut off" instead of "It looks like they remodeled and your standing in a wall"

It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Basically it is like the Scrying spells. If used standardly they are perfectly fine. Once you try to talk to the main villain's Ex-Girlfriend and then Scry and die the final boss... THEN your approaching the area where the DM has to go "No, the villain is in an anti-scry field.

---

That and... Who do you think you are? Some nobodies?

EVERYONE should know who you are if your teleporting everywhere and using Scry and die tactics. If a villain doesn't have a way to stop you from Scrying or teleporting right up to them, they are probably not going to do anything until they do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on January 21, 2016, 09:15:32 am

It probably depends on the group. Personally, I like the story side of the game much more than the rules crunching.
But if Jimmy likes playing rules as written 100% and exploiting them all the way.... it is a viable way to play the game, as long as everyone in the group agrees on it. Although I imagine it is not the most common school of thought considering comments here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 09:20:38 am

Quote from: andrea on January 21, 2016, 09:15:32 am

It probably depends on the group. Personally, I like the story side of the game much more than the rules crunching.
But if Jimmy likes playing rules as written 100% and exploiting them all the way.... it is a viable way to play the game, as long as everyone in the group agrees on it. Although I imagine it is not the most common school of thought considering comments here.

It is because it can get really cheap and very anticlimactic. Kind of destroying the story aspect immediately.

"And then the heroes were presented with a horror beyond any they have ever experienced before, a entity that is beyond good and beyond evil a cosmic horror that melts the very fabric of space and time... and he was just kind of destroyed between meals by the wizard. Ok everyone go back to sleep Captain Cheapo Wizard destroyed another adventure"

Is the worst case scenario :P

---

But that is really the worst case...

I know a lot of DMs over bar things (Wish being a HUGE one). Yet all I am saying is that there is a reason why a DM would not want to ban teleport but ban the "Teleport to a place you only heard of" strategy to send nukes into the "Bowels of Orcus"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 09:25:34 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 09:20:38 am

It is because it can get really cheap and very anticlimactic. Kind of destroying the story aspect immediately.

"And then the heroes were presented with a horror beyond any they have ever experienced before, a entity that is beyond good and beyond evil a cosmic horror that melts the very fabric of space and time... and he was just kind of destroyed between meals by the wizard. Ok everyone go back to sleep Captain Cheapo Wizard destroyed another adventure"

Is the worst case scenario :P

Yeah, if players start to do cheese stuff I tend to just get clever with them.

"Oh, you're all going drinking? That's great. Hey, wizzard, roll me a Wisdom check. You got under 20? Okay. No, I didn't write anything down, don't worry about it."

And then everyone in an inn finds out from the wizzard how clever and amazing he is because he used this one trick that evil bosses hate. By the time they're awake, everyone in the town knows about their adventures and then their legend spreads throughout the lands. Especially their strategies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 09:27:01 am

Now THAT is a very good idea Nullbolt

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 21, 2016, 09:29:23 am

Spellcasters get crazy. People who know nothing about how to use spellcasters, or are really good at them, are unpredictably crazy.

I think I mentioned this before, but there was a campaign I did not take part of where the party rarely got any loot because the sorcerer's response to everything was "blow it up".

Yes, even locked chests.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 09:32:20 am

I also learned my lesson on why you sometimes fudge things so that one person doesn't mess things up for the party.

A character peed on an important tapestry and ruined the writing (because he was roleplaying drunk... Ok... so MAYBE I should have taken this as a warning sign...)

And then everyone got REALLY pissed at that player.

---

In all fairness sometimes a player does want to roleplay messing up...

Heck one of the most rewarding times as a player was when I was caught sneaking around and immediately surrendered.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 09:38:25 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 09:27:01 am

Now THAT is a very good idea Nullbolt

Thank you. :p

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 21, 2016, 09:29:23 am

Spellcasters get crazy. People who know nothing about how to use spellcasters, or are really good at them, are unpredictably crazy.

I think I mentioned this before, but there was a campaign I did not take part of where the party rarely got any loot because the sorcerer's response to everything was "blow it up".

Yes, even locked chests.

But why.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 21, 2016, 09:43:50 am

Because full spellcasters don't really need gear and destroying things was fun, I guess.

There's a guide to Pathfinder Wizards that have a recurring tongue-in-cheek theme of 'spellcasters are gods, and any non-spellcasting class is just there for your manipulation', but more than a few people actually take it seriously.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 10:06:55 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 21, 2016, 09:43:50 am

Because full spellcasters don't really need gear and destroying things was fun, I guess.

There's a guide to Pathfinder Wizards that have a recurring tongue-in-cheek theme of 'spellcasters are gods, and any non-spellcasting class is just there for your manipulation', but more than a few people actually take it seriously.

"Your explosion seems particular large, even larger than normal. As the bubble of destruction expands, you can see glittering shards of gold on it's very edges. Roll me a quick Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) check, please. 26? Great. You think you might've destroyed one of the legendary Rods of Explosive Prowess, permanently rendering it's ability to improve destructive magical abilities null and void."

He'd stop immediately.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 21, 2016, 10:11:30 am

Again, I wasn't in that campaign, and it is long ended now.

It was Skulls and Shackles: a pirate campaign. He literally sunk every ship the party came across, loot and all.

Most of the wealth from that campaign comes from commandeering the ships you attack and selling them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 11:01:34 am

Does anyone know any systems (other than RuneQuest) which would support Elder Scrolls-style mixing and matching of classes? So having like a spellsword is actually viable and doesn't require you to pick that class from the start? Also, preferably everyone knows at least a little bit of magic along the way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 21, 2016, 11:21:28 am

Quote from: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 08:48:21 am

Either that or disappearing for six hours let's them organise in a way you just aren't expecting.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 21, 2016, 06:01:57 pm

Quote from: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 11:01:34 am

Does anyone know any systems (other than RuneQuest) which would support Elder Scrolls-style mixing and matching of classes? So having like a spellsword is actually viable and doesn't require you to pick that class from the start? Also, preferably everyone knows at least a little bit of magic along the way.

If you use pathfinder, this site (http://davidvs.net/hobbies/pathfinder-beyond.shtml) has classes-as-feats and a bunch of other really cool things.

Such as a simplified (and useful!) grapple flow, poison crafting, and optimised teamwork-and-pet shenanigans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 06:09:51 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on January 21, 2016, 06:01:57 pm

Quote from: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 11:01:34 am

Does anyone know any systems (other than RuneQuest) which would support Elder Scrolls-style mixing and matching of classes? So having like a spellsword is actually viable and doesn't require you to pick that class from the start? Also, preferably everyone knows at least a little bit of magic along the way.

If you use pathfinder, this site (http://davidvs.net/hobbies/pathfinder-beyond.shtml) has classes-as-feats and a bunch of other really cool things.

Such as a simplified (and useful!) grapple flow, poison crafting, and optimised teamwork-and-pet shenanigans.

That's actually almost a good way of playing Pathfinder, thanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 21, 2016, 06:46:03 pm

I just shared most of the goodies with my GM. It makes poison crafting and trap-making actually a valuable use of resources.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:12:42 pm

I think a lot of DMs fail to realize that the rules aren't just there to penalize the players. The DM has the most control out of the entire group, picking what challenges the PCs face, how NPCs respond to their actions, and setting the entire tone for the game world. By contrast, the players have only one thing they control: their character. Using the rules to give their character an advantage is pretty clearly a good thing in my books.

Plus, I'll take winning a difficult encounter through clever use of the rules over losing the encounter and causing the death of the entire party any day. I'd much rather preserve the story progress and interpersonal history between the characters than throw it away because some might call my strategy exploitive.

I think if you're looking to play a game where eldritch abominations beyond mortal comprehension are fearsome and awe inspiring, you're using the wrong system with D&D or Pathfinder. You'd be much better off with something like Call of Cthulhu, where you're expected to solve the encounters through strategy and stealth, and combat is typically fatal. In D&D, the typical character and the typical CR appropriate monster are built with the expectation that you're going to kill it and take its stuff. That's why there's a hundred different ways to deal damage but just a single Diplomacy skill.

Plus frankly, I can't see my character getting a reputation as a dragonslayer to be anything but good for business. Let word get around that our adventuring company can deal with the biggest baddest nasties on the block, and hopefully we'll start getting some good adventure hooks out of the deal. Not to mention, it'll likely do wonders for my Leadership score.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 21, 2016, 08:15:50 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:12:42 pm

I think if you're looking to play a game where eldritch abominations beyond mortal comprehension are fearsome and awe inspiring, you're using the wrong system with D&D or Pathfinder.

That is kind of showing more of a limitation of the DM to demonstrate the power of a creature. There are plenty of ways to do it with just a dragon.

Especially when THREE of the 5th edition adventure paths are all about not fighting the big boss in a fair fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 21, 2016, 08:45:25 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:12:42 pm

That's why there's a hundred different ways to deal damage but just a single Diplomacy skill.

Sure there's a single diplomacy skill. There's also a single Acrobatics skill, should we not include chasms and tumbling because it's "just one skill"?

There's also Bluff, Intimidate, Linguistics(Forgery/Detect forgery all rolled up), Sense Motive, and plenty of non-lethal spells and many, many ways to convert someone to your side / convince them to let you by.

...Hell, in an AD&D adapted to PF, we let two bugbears go in exchange for information.

Then, just a little ways down the line, a couple of gnolls said in their shared language that we (they thought we were bugbears) shouldn't be there and to let them by.

I responded in a human accent, that we would absolutely let them by. And they walked right on by us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 21, 2016, 10:21:09 pm

I was gonna say. It's pretty absurd to make the comparison of [n] damage types versus "lol only Diplomacy". As Gentlefish said, in PF you have Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge, Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand as the skills which are likely to come into play in nonviolent encounters, even if we specifically restrict that to conversations with other sapient beings (ignore things like Handle Animal to interact peacefully with sub-sapients, Escape Artist used to remove oneself from a situation after submitting to capture instead of fighting, &c.).

Even if you don't count all the different subsets of Know (X) and Perform (X) as individual skills that's still just under half of the skills in PF which are either dedicated to nonviolent encounters or useful to some degree in the same. As opposed to 7 used as elements of specific types of actions which might be used in combat.

It's also a false equivalency because it assumes that all nonviolent encounters consist of the player saying "I roll Diplomacy," and the DM saying "You pass/fail." That's like acting as if all combat consisted solely of "I roll to hit." "You miss/hit." "There's my damage roll." while lumping every possible way of dealing damage into a single category labeled "ATTACK". If that's how nonviolent encounters play out, either the DM is lazy or the group as a whole just wants to kill things. It's not like there aren't rules for nonviolent encounters, and it's not like they aren't supposed to give equivalent rewards; it's all down to the DM and players choosing not to play that way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 21, 2016, 11:41:36 pm

To be fair, the diplomacy skill specifically is pretty absurd (3.5e, I think PF improved it somewhat).  Requires a lot of DM meddling to make it reasonable.  But yeah there are lots of skills for handling non-violent encounters, it's supposed to be a significant part of the game.

I like that the Book of Exalted Deeds suggests that (fully) resolving a situation without violence should always give as much XP as killing.  Possibly more, depending on the result.  I think meaning situations where an enemy is captured or convinced to surrender/leave.  Probably not full XP for hiding from a patrol (that wouldn't be "fully resolved" since they're still a dangerous enemy force).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on January 22, 2016, 12:18:24 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 20, 2016, 03:50:36 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 20, 2016, 03:46:21 pm

If pathfinder didn't have so many feats, we wouldn't have experienced the glory that is sacred geometry! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry)

Holy shit it's the Final Fantasy Tactics mathematician class
as a FEAT
And maybe slightly less OP, though who knows

And their example is wrong.
"If the result of his dice pool were 1, 1, 2, and 5, he would have been unable to produce any of the relevant prime constants."
How about "(2^5)-(1*1)"? Pretty sure exponents could be argued to be a form of multiplication, and therefor a valid use.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on January 22, 2016, 12:37:33 am

Quote from: Ghills on January 20, 2016, 11:24:01 am

Just started running a D&D 5e game.  All new players...except for one experienced player who decided to play a Chaotic Neutral barbarian.  ::)

That guy/gal sounds like a legend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 22, 2016, 12:46:01 am

Chaotic Neutral barbarian is kinda obvious and can be problematic :/
I mean in good hands it could be good, but it's also a recipe for "Player bored, character punches people".
Though in my case the player was crazy good at doublethink, following a tight yet nebulous code of honor which *required* that he punch people when [he felt like it].

By the way, I like that barbarians don't have to be chaotic.  But bards do.  (3.5e)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 12:50:13 am

What's wrong with with a Chaotic Neutral Barbarian? I mean, I guess I can see how like a shitty player could play it as murderboner mc ragefucker, but pretty much any alignment has similar issues. Otherwise, well, I think it works fairly well as a alignment as a whole if done right, I mean, generic of course, but it's not like alignment really needs to say much about a characters personality.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on January 22, 2016, 12:55:11 am

Quote from: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 06:09:51 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on January 21, 2016, 06:01:57 pm

Quote from: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 11:01:34 am

Does anyone know any systems (other than RuneQuest) which would support Elder Scrolls-style mixing and matching of classes? So having like a spellsword is actually viable and doesn't require you to pick that class from the start? Also, preferably everyone knows at least a little bit of magic along the way.

If you use pathfinder, this site (http://davidvs.net/hobbies/pathfinder-beyond.shtml) has classes-as-feats and a bunch of other really cool things.

Such as a simplified (and useful!) grapple flow, poison crafting, and optimised teamwork-and-pet shenanigans.

That's actually almost a good way of playing Pathfinder, thanks.

Hmm. I kinda want to play/run a campaign with that system in place, but it looks like it's incomplete. If someone wanted to take all the core classes and get all their abilities and archetypes statted out as feats this way, it would be awesome; organized so that basic [class] training feats were at the front, and then further feats are organized into blocks in the same order as the basic class feats.
I might get started on this on the weekend, if I find the time. My unfamiliarity with pathfinder not-withstanding; I can supplement the gaps with my 3.5 knowledge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 22, 2016, 12:55:46 am

Actually I'm sorry, we're not supposed to do alignment discussions here.  My experience was mostly based on one (2-year) campaign anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on January 22, 2016, 01:58:17 am

Quote from: nullBolt on January 21, 2016, 11:01:34 am

Does anyone know any systems (other than RuneQuest) which would support Elder Scrolls-style mixing and matching of classes? So having like a spellsword is actually viable and doesn't require you to pick that class from the start? Also, preferably everyone knows at least a little bit of magic along the way.

I don't know how well it fits your criteria, but Talislanta (http://talislanta.com/?page_id=5) in all editions allows players to learn new skills by spending xp, and pretty much everyone --except races that are barred from it-- can learn learn magic in the same way. And the Paths in 5th edition Talislanta are pretty analogous to RuneQuest Professions, in that they mostly just provide skills at the start of the game (and a few other things). The only thing is, there's some limits on the paths you can take depending on your race.

I'm finding I really like the system in general, in that, rather than adding a bunch of modifiers to your roll, with some penalties for difficulty, then rolling and comparing to a DC that is also supposed to represent difficulty or an enemy's opposed roll, you just add up all positive and negative modifiers (which could be the enemy's defending skill) and compare that to a single table which tells you how well you did. And there are fumbles (called mishaps), but they only come into play on a modified roll of 0 or lower, so they only happen if you really suck at something or you're facing something beyond your ability, and the fact that even opposed checks are a single roll means you can easily say that the character was bested by their opponent rather than them suddenly sucking for some reason.

Then you have a setting that is either something you'll love about the system or might put you off, in that it's a place filled with hundreds of races and cultures, though it's such that you can pretty much use just the stuff you're interested in and ignore the rest.

Well, anyway, the whole system run was released for free by its creator, so you can decide how you like it yourself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 22, 2016, 02:27:59 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 21, 2016, 11:41:36 pm

To be fair, the diplomacy skill specifically is pretty absurd (3.5e, I think PF improved it somewhat).

Not really. A while back, I made a fifth level character with a +24 to diplomacy. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=219166)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 22, 2016, 02:30:47 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 22, 2016, 12:46:01 am

Chaotic Neutral barbarian is kinda obvious and can be problematic :/
I mean in good hands it could be good, but it's also a recipe for "Player bored, character punches people".

At least it's not a chaotic neutral pyromaniac evoker

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 22, 2016, 02:49:21 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 22, 2016, 02:27:59 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 21, 2016, 11:41:36 pm

To be fair, the diplomacy skill specifically is pretty absurd (3.5e, I think PF improved it somewhat).

Not really. A while back, I made a fifth level character with a +24 to diplomacy. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=219166)

Sorry, I meant to point out that it's absurdly powerful RAW (though I'd rather call it "broken" or "unfinished")

The most absurd part is that the DC doesn't take into account the targets except for their attitude.  The DC to talk a creature from hostile to unfriendly (in one round) is 30.  Whether it's a guard trying to arrest you, a kobold fighting for its life, or a dragon whose treasure you're carrying.  *Rules As Written*, you bump it to "unfriendly" at which point it just "watches you suspiciously" and is passive aggressive.

It's kinda hilarious and I'm sure few groups actually play that way, obviously the DM is supposed to add modifiers to the nines.  In both directions.  Maybe even an opposed check of some sort.  But it doesn't even suggest that, it just lays down absurdly simple rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 03:38:04 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 21, 2016, 08:12:42 pm

I think a lot of DMs fail to realize that the rules aren't just there to penalize the players. The DM has the most control out of the entire group, picking what challenges the PCs face, how NPCs respond to their actions, and setting the entire tone for the game world. By contrast, the players have only one thing they control: their character. Using the rules to give their character an advantage is pretty clearly a good thing in my books.

Plus, I'll take winning a difficult encounter through clever use of the rules over losing the encounter and causing the death of the entire party any day. I'd much rather preserve the story progress and interpersonal history between the characters than throw it away because some might call my strategy exploitive.

I think if you're looking to play a game where eldritch abominations beyond mortal comprehension are fearsome and awe inspiring, you're using the wrong system with D&D or Pathfinder. You'd be much better off with something like Call of Cthulhu, where you're expected to solve the encounters through strategy and stealth, and combat is typically fatal. In D&D, the typical character and the typical CR appropriate monster are built with the expectation that you're going to kill it and take its stuff. That's why there's a hundred different ways to deal damage but just a single Diplomacy skill.

Plus frankly, I can't see my character getting a reputation as a dragonslayer to be anything but good for business. Let word get around that our adventuring company can deal with the biggest baddest nasties on the block, and hopefully we'll start getting some good adventure hooks out of the deal. Not to mention, it'll likely do wonders for my Leadership score.

Honestly, man, I just think you're unsuited for pen and paper games in general. If your group is happy with you and the way you play, that's great, but from what you've said in the past you seem to be the only one playing the way you're suggesting you should play. If it was me, I'd just ask you to tone it down or leave.

The rules are a framework for our adult's game of makebelieve. That's all they are. They're a way of ensuring that everyone has some idea of how the game is going to be played and NOT a prescriptive way of playing for both sides of the game.

There are two very important rules that go across all rulesets and they are...

Rule Zero
"Roleplaying games are entertainment; your goal as a group is to make your games as entertaining as possible."

The Golden Rule
"The GM makes the rules; don't argue with the GM"

These are the only rules you should be certain of in any game. If a rule is unfun, broken or awful, it gets excised. No ifs, no buts.

I suggest you look back at your posts, read through what you're saying and ask yourself: Would I be having fun if I was one of the other players in this situation?

Quote from: flabort on January 22, 2016, 12:55:11 am

Hmm. I kinda want to play/run a campaign with that system in place, but it looks like it's incomplete. If someone wanted to take all the core classes and get all their abilities and archetypes statted out as feats this way, it would be awesome; organized so that basic [class] training feats were at the front, and then further feats are organized into blocks in the same order as the basic class feats.
I might get started on this on the weekend, if I find the time. My unfamiliarity with pathfinder not-withstanding; I can supplement the gaps with my 3.5 knowledge.

You definitely should. If you manage, I'll probably run a campaign using it.

Quote from: Kadzar on January 22, 2016, 01:58:17 am

I don't know how well it fits your criteria, but Talislanta (http://talislanta.com/?page_id=5) in all editions allows players to learn new skills by spending xp, and pretty much everyone --except races that are barred from it-- can learn learn magic in the same way. And the Paths in 5th edition Talislanta are pretty analogous to RuneQuest Professions, in that they mostly just provide skills at the start of the game (and a few other things). The only thing is, there's some limits on the paths you can take depending on your race.

I actually had a read through of Talislanta's setting in the past, but never it's ruleset. Thanks, I'll have a look.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:07:26 am

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 04:09:00 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:07:26 am

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Because your limiting the Player's options.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:14:26 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 04:09:00 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:07:26 am

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Because your limiting the Player's options.

You're limiti the players options to not let them build a nuclear warhead too, or when you tell them that they should stop being Dockyard Mafia and go stop BBEG before he blows a continent off the planet, or when the noble they beat up sends assassination squads after them, or when they want to go wenching and you point-blank refuse.

In fact, the DM really has two roles.
First, to structure the game world to provide something for the players to do
Second, to limit what the players can do in order to make the game more fun for the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 04:17:31 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:14:26 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 04:09:00 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:07:26 am

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Because your limiting the Player's options.

You're limiti the players options to not let them build a nuclear warhead too, or when you tell them that they should stop being Dockyard Mafia and go stop BBEG before he blows a continent off the planet, or when the noble they beat up sends assassination squads after them, or when they want to go wenching and you point-blank refuse.

In fact, the DM really has two roles.
First, to structure the game world to provide something for the players to do
Second, to limit what the players can do in order to make the game more fun for the players.

I think Neo is taking the piss.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 04:21:11 am

Not so much taking the piss as explaining the idea behind it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 04:42:54 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:14:26 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 04:09:00 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:07:26 am

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Because your limiting the Player's options.

You're limiti the players options to not let them build a nuclear warhead too¹, or when you tell them that they should stop being Dockyard Mafia and go stop BBEG before he blows a continent off the planet², or when the noble they beat up sends assassination squads after them³, or when they want to go wenching and you point-blank refuse⁴.

In fact, the DM really has two roles.
First, to structure the game world to provide something for the players to do
Second, to limit what the players can do in order to make the game more fun for the players.

1. False equivalence. D&D has clearly delineated rules for teleportation &c., and scry-and-fry is a classic tactic for half-decent wizards. That's nothing at all like the party in the fantasy adventure managing to assemble a functioning nuclear warhead with medieval or Renaissance-era tech. If the BBEG is a high-level spellcaster? Sure. But if it ain't, why the fuck does he have defenses appropriate for one other than "bluh blah I'm too lazy to deal with consequences of my own planning".

2. Not the same thing. That's you railroading the players into something they don't want to do rather than telling them flat-out that some of their skills are worthless because you said so.

3. That's a natural consequence of player actions. Likewise, not the same thing.

4. Also not at all the same thing. Unless it was genuine and non-creepy, but we all know how likely that is. Stopping magical-realm bullshit is well within any DM's reasonable purview.

The last bit I agree with. Except that you seem to be laboring under the misconception that what you/DM wants is what the players should want as well, and if they don't agree you should force them, even when there's no reason beyond "oh, that would make work for me because I planned out the entire adventure ahead of time without allowing for any deviation from the prescribed path through the narrative".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 05:18:21 am

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 04:42:54 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:14:26 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 04:09:00 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:07:26 am

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Because your limiting the Player's options.

You're limiti the players options to not let them build a nuclear warhead too¹, or when you tell them that they should stop being Dockyard Mafia and go stop BBEG before he blows a continent off the planet², or when the noble they beat up sends assassination squads after them³, or when they want to go wenching and you point-blank refuse⁴.

In fact, the DM really has two roles.
First, to structure the game world to provide something for the players to do
Second, to limit what the players can do in order to make the game more fun for the players.

1. False equivalence. D&D has clearly delineated rules for teleportation &c., and scry-and-fry is a classic tactic for half-decent wizards. That's nothing at all like the party in the fantasy adventure managing to assemble a functioning nuclear warhead with medieval or Renaissance-era tech. If the BBEG is a high-level spellcaster? Sure. But if it ain't, why the fuck does he have defenses appropriate for one other than "bluh blah I'm too lazy to deal with consequences of my own planning".

2. Not the same thing. That's you railroading the players into something they don't want to do rather than telling them flat-out that some of their skills are worthless because you said so.

3. That's a natural consequence of player actions. Likewise, not the same thing.

4. Also not at all the same thing. Unless it was genuine and non-creepy, but we all know how likely that is. Stopping magical-realm bullshit is well within any DM's reasonable purview.

The last bit I agree with. Except that you seem to be laboring under the misconception that what you/DM wants is what the players should want as well, and if they don't agree you should force them, even when there's no reason beyond "oh, that would make work for me because I planned out the entire adventure ahead of time without allowing for any deviation from the prescribed path through the narrative".

1. If the party is at a sufficient level for scry/die and group teleports to be standard things, whatever puppy-kicker they're up against has no excuse not to have TAD. Even if they're not a spell aster, they can still have TAD of some form, either by just buying the casting off an extraplanar wizard, petitioning their God, building the Fortress of Doom and Upturned Thumbtacks on a natural site where raw mana interferes with teleport, or having the Legendary Macgyffin generate the TAD itself( Any artefact-maker worth their salt would want to protect the bearer from scry/die.

2. It would be railroading if you just refused to process the "shakedown level 1 dockworker" or "break into big Tony's warehouse" actions. It's not railroading to point out that this is a bad use of time if the BBEG they know is trying to blow Gondowana off the mantle has already been established.

3.I don't see how the noble taking a reasonable action to get revenge on the band of muderhoboes is any different from the bad guy taking action to try and slow down the murderhoboes from murderhoboiing his evil ritual to open a rift to the Plane of Rusty Nails.
4. This was a pretty bad example, yeah.

What the DM want sand the players want should be reasonably aligned, actually. Otherwise either the DM or the players aren't going to enjoy themselves as much as they could. If either side thinks this is the case then they should meet up out of game, and talk about what the DM can do to fit the campaign towards the play style and goals of the players, and how the other players can work with the DM a little better.

For the second half of that statement you can fuck right off to hell and bounce in the beds, because equating "sometimes ye players must accept that there might be a counter to their plan" to "You're a terrible person who makes linear railway adventures and forces everyone to do what they want and only considers themselves" is Loud Whispers levels of wilful misunderstanding and flamebait.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 22, 2016, 09:28:26 am

I just finished fighting a red dragon!

The DM threw a good curveball at me when the dragon popped open an eversmoking bottle prior to the start of the fight. Total concealment, ack! Despite that, I managed to force it down to 1 Dex remaining, after which it used its massive fly speed to flee. Bad roll on the d4 sadly, I was banking on a better roll to finish it totally with my final hit and really should have used a Wall of Force to block the exits instead. Still got to loot its horde though, so not a total wash. Hopefully it'll show up with friends next time and we can go for round 2!

I'm amused watching those who get upset over one encounter, thinking I'm doing it wrong. Play how you want to play. I had a great time tonight, and it was a nifty challenge to overcome. Now that it's out of the way for now, of course, I can continue to provide Haste and tactical support to the party instead of going toe to toe with the big boss. I'd much prefer a good dungeon crawl where you fight enemies in a 10 ft. by 10 ft. corridor, have the rogue scouting for traps, and kick open the door to see what horrible creature's on the other side.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 22, 2016, 09:35:31 am

"After bravely vanquishing the dragon, you find its priceless horde composed of 400 orc light infantry, 300 orc skirmishers, 240 goblin wolf cavalry, 60 goblin wolf-mounted wizards, 100 hill giant heavy troops and 20 troll auxiliaries. Roll initiative."

Actually, are there any spells in D&D that would let you safely store a horde in a hoard? Seems like exactly the sort of thing a high-level evil wizard would keep around as a backup plan.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 22, 2016, 10:04:09 am

Craft a magical trap of Mad Monkeys. Instant monkey horde.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 22, 2016, 11:03:42 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on January 22, 2016, 09:35:31 am

Actually, are there any spells in D&D that would let you safely store a horde in a hoard? Seems like exactly the sort of thing a high-level evil wizard would keep around as a backup plan.

I think there was a spell that temporarily animated terracotta warriors

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 22, 2016, 11:12:53 am

Bag of Holding?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on January 22, 2016, 11:13:35 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 22, 2016, 11:12:53 am

Bag of Holding?

They'll suffocate after ten minutes, and you can only get something like 250 cubic feet of stuff in per bag anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 22, 2016, 11:17:09 am

Not if your horde is undead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on January 22, 2016, 11:20:08 am

Things always tend to get amusingly silly once the party acquires a bag of holding. :P   

Also, what Dorsi's saying makes sense to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on January 22, 2016, 11:27:30 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 22, 2016, 11:17:09 am

Not if your horde is undead.

You raise a very valid point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 22, 2016, 11:34:23 am

Or constructs, or in actuality a ton of Animated Armor/Weapons that act as a person.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 22, 2016, 12:12:49 pm

We considered filling the bag with water and casting water breathing once, but the DM appropriately ruled that the water would deoxygenate just as fast.  We involved real world physics pretty often like that...  Like when we were in a hurry to get to a place in the middle of a massive TAD, so we teleported into *space* above the target.  Two of us hid in the bag of holding while the mummy-fighter surfed a boat I (the druid) had bolstered and shaped into a reentry shield.

... To be honest, I don't remember how he survived the actual impact (RAW the damage caps really low, but the DM made a house rule...  I think it still capped at an absolute velocity value though).  Maybe a potion of feather fall taken close enough to the ground.  He nearly died from the reentry heat *anyway* but managed to scrape through.

That character was great.  He would pull the boat along with swimming, since he was a tireless undead and massively strong.  He had like 40-50 strength, usually carried a huge ball of stuff including a full rowboat.  I wanted to kit him out in massive sheets of raw iron like unpowered power armor, but the DM and he didn't go for it :P

Edit:  On some occasion (maybe that one) I would have suffocated in that bag of holding (not the wizard, he was a tiny fairy) except that I cast water breathing and *repeatedly* cast create water.  The newly summoned water was oxygenated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 02:08:57 pm

Create Demiplane would definitely let you put a horde in a hoard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 22, 2016, 02:16:58 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 04:09:00 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 04:07:26 am

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Because your limiting the Player's options.

It depends on the nature and resources of the villain; it would be completely reasonable for a high-level wizard or rich paranoid nobleman to protect parts of their estate with Dimensional Lock or some permanent equivalent in magic item form.

EDIT:
Especially if it's actually come up

EDIT:
The stasis of any part of the world that you aren't currently in seen in rpg videogames is not a feature of the genre but rather a limitation of the medium

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:20:05 pm

That's sort of what I was saying earlier--some BBEGs can be expected to have defenses like that, but it's illogical for them all to unless you're treating it explicitly as a game that you need to balance such that the players can only do what you want them to rather than a living world. Say, for example, you've got a nomadic barbarian warlord leading an army of tens of thousands on an invasion through known lands. Why would they have thick magical protections on wherever they happened to be encamped beyond "because DM says they do"?
 
Actually, I'm curious about something. Sharing time?

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed which:
1. Was intended for an actual game.
2. Didn't get DM-veto'd.
3. Had a backstory/character identity that couldn't be summarized in one line.

A character sheet for the details is cool, but a description'll do. Then try to justify how the character got to that point in the context of the campaign and why it wasn't a horrible abuse of your position as a player.

I'll start.

20th level Petal Warlock. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=46038)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay. The campaign it was for never got beyond character creation, but it was Epic-level with all tier-1 classes banned. The premise was that the party was a group of well-established adventurers who, for various reasons, had decided to seek out immortality (though at the end of character creation one already was and two just wanted to help the others). By my recollection, I started out with the concept of a Warlock who could be a poor-man's Wizard for transport and divination via Path of Shadow and a Crystal Ball with Telepathy. IIRC I intended to go into the Enlightened Spirit prestige class over the course of the campaign, and I didn't think I could reasonably justify that with a 20th level Warlock in the traditional CE vein, so I needed CG fey-flavor.

IIRC we got a decent chunk of free LA. I happened across the Petal entry--it wasn't Pixie levels of broken stupidity, it fit the target flavor, and the DM allowed it. They mature at 2yo, so I ballparked the party as having been together for a bit over a decade, going with the idea that way back in the misty past she'd been a party pet of sorts who stumbled into power and is now basically just hanging out because they're the entirety of her world. I'd intended for the in-story growth (through Enlightened Spirit in crunch terms) to be a rediscovery of the unadulterated kindness of her youth and a reduction of the corrupting nastiness of the pragmatism more than a dozen years of adventuring had fostered. The inherent meaninglessness of the supposed goal to the character was going to be the catalyst by which she realized that she'd drifted too far from her own values, but the broad perspective of a seasoned adventurer would continue to make it clear that just hanging around forcing people to rest and being nice to everyone isn't a viable route either. From there I filled out everything else to turn the character into basically the fantasy Red Baron, equally capable at army-killing and single-target melting, to supplement the intended set of support skills.

Don't ask me why I have Fell Flight on a character with a natural 240' (perfect) fly speed. I think it might have been a prereq.

Please don't leave this as an awkward hanging segue. I want to see what y'all have come up with. It's always a delicate balancing act with this sort of thing, so it's fun to see how people handle it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 02:29:22 pm

Quote

Say, for example, you've got a nomadic barbarian warlord leading an army of tens of thousands on an invasion through known lands. Why would they have thick magical protections on wherever they happened to be encamped beyond "because DM says they do"?

Conan was a Barbarian Warlord and he had a powerful Wizard (several in fact) in his hire.

And he fought against several Barbarian Warlords who either had wizards or who were also wizards.

AND Gangis Kahn often would take prisoners from conquests and force them into his army.

There three possible explanations
1) He has a wizard
2) He is a Barbarian Wizard
3) He captured a wizard

All of which are 100% reasonable. Especially for a Barbarian Warlord who can feasibly challenge level 10+s.

As for why? because Conan and Gangis Kahn were both highly intelligent people. In fact Gangis Kahn inspite his reputation as a barbarian was quite civilized and was closer to a politician then a warlord, and brought the Mongols together through his success in politics instead of simply beating down all other tribes. Both those people would see the value in creating a simple anti-teleport anti-scry field over the main tent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:35:59 pm

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 02:40:58 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:35:59 pm

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

"Level 20 BBEG trying to end the world cannot be scried and died in his evil fortress of doom and electric chairs" -> "Level 10 BBEG nomad barbarian has court wizard -> "2 sessions in invalidating a character build"
That was some impressive polymorph, in only two posts. Impressive.

As for optimised char builds?
I've never really gotten into extreme optimisation, and don't get to play much. I usually stat a tankish class with some healing on the side and take the hits for the wizards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 22, 2016, 02:42:43 pm

Or do what Conan the Barbarian did and actually tell or foreshadow about the Wizard.

HECK make the very first glimpse being about the Wizard and make it impossible to enter the tower through magical means only to find that really it was a hoard of barbarians who got in and kidnapped the wizard.

boom! You set up the villain, gave him a reasonable explanation for why you can't just "Hear about the tent".

Though if you want to houserule it to not be intrusive. Just remove the "hear about it" aspect. Just say you have to see or have been to a location.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 22, 2016, 02:46:00 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:20:05 pm

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed?

In that same game, I made a Truenamer with a +110 to Truespeak, and... (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=483325)

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:20:05 pm

Then try to justify how the character got to that point in the context of the campaign and why it wasn't a horrible abuse of your position as a player.

Oh.
Oops.
:P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:54:53 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on January 22, 2016, 02:40:58 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:35:59 pm

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

"Level 20 BBEG trying to end the world cannot be scried and died in his evil fortress of doom and electric chairs" -> "Level 10 BBEG nomad barbarian has court wizard -> "2 sessions in invalidating a character build"
That was some impressive polymorph, in only two posts. Impressive.

Way to distort the point. I was talking about how it's not reasonable to set things up so that the party is always forced to do what the DM wants. If the BBEG's living in a big ol' tower I suppose it's also okay for the DM to say, "sorry, it's made of pure adamantite and permanently levitating" when the party tries to undermine it and set up an explosive charge to trigger a collapse?

I'm totally down with characters and places having abilities which they can be reasonably expected to have. But you're apparently advocating for a view where it's okay for the DM to just arbitrarily block player action when it doesn't conform to what they want, with no recourse except to follow the DM's leash. Ferex, that "level 10 barbarian BBEG with court wizard" apparently has magical defenses equal to the originally discussed BBEG? Why hasn't that wizard fucked off to do his own thing if he's that powerful?

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 22, 2016, 02:46:00 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:20:05 pm

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed?

In that same game, I made a Truenamer with a +110 to Truespeak, and... (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=483325)

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:20:05 pm

Then try to justify how the character got to that point in the context of the campaign and why it wasn't a horrible abuse of your position as a player.

Oh.
Oops.
:P

Oh, I remember that guy.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 22, 2016, 03:36:08 pm

I tend to not bother with minmaxing uber-optomized bullshit, because why bother doing that? The DM will eventually call you out on your merciless loophole abuse, and then you'll be posting here complaining about how terrible a person your DM is for not letting you be the sole star of the party. Unless your DM specifically asks for overpowered builds, deliberately making one just seems like you're trying to dick over the rest of the group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 22, 2016, 04:11:03 pm

...Well, it never got past the thought-process because we never continued the game, but my DM had a homebrew LoTR-verse with Beorning as its own race.

It got wildshape as the class feature (into bears only) as a racial feature.

I abused the hell out of this. I went Barbarian for the rage/HP boost/pounce. As soon as I hit level 5, I went into Nature's Warrior for the wrestling constriction and DR/- and fast healing. I delved into Complete Fighter for extra damage.

On a charge, in Brown Bear form, I did 2x 2d6+9 ( Improved Nat Attack two claws), 2d8+5 (INA Bite), plus 1d12 (Flying kick), and a grab.

On a grapple, I was doing 2d6+9 claw damage, 2d6+13 constrict, and with a pin, I was going an extra d12.

I think I may be forgetting a dice or two (There were some seriously stupid wrestling dice stacking feats) but this is about right.

In dire bear form, the claws go to 1d10+ 13 and the bite goes to 3d6 + 6

He was a nasty grappler, it's a shame I never got to play him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 05:28:52 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:20:05 pm

That's sort of what I was saying earlier--some BBEGs can be expected to have defenses like that, but it's illogical for them all to unless you're treating it explicitly as a game that you need to balance such that the players can only do what you want them to rather than a living world. Say, for example, you've got a nomadic barbarian warlord leading an army of tens of thousands on an invasion through known lands. Why would they have thick magical protections on wherever they happened to be encamped beyond "because DM says they do"?

Why would they not?!

You're a powerful warlord leading a huge army in a world where an evil wizard can pop out of nowhere and blast the living fucking shit out of you. Why would anyone with any mediocum of power not be buying charms to block scrying and teleportation when it's not allowed by them?

You argue that it's in the rules that it's fine if it works line that. If it's in the rules, it's been done by someone else already in game. I mean, Sweet Baby Jesus, we don't have magical powers in the real world but people have sold charms for millenia blocking the evil eye, in a world where the evil eye exists then you'd always have one.

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:35:59 pm

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

I honestly don't know if you're intentionally misinterpreting what we're saying or you honestly don't understand the fundamental differences between assembly line Optimised Conjuration Whizzard #54566 soloing a dragon designed to fight the entire party and a rogue in some den somewhere being killed by a fireball, but there really is one.

Quote from: Jimmy on January 22, 2016, 09:28:26 am

I'm amused watching those who get upset over one encounter, thinking I'm doing it wrong. Play how you want to play. I had a great time tonight, and it was a nifty challenge to overcome. Now that it's out of the way for now, of course, I can continue to provide Haste and tactical support to the party instead of going toe to toe with the big boss. I'd much prefer a good dungeon crawl where you fight enemies in a 10 ft. by 10 ft. corridor, have the rogue scouting for traps, and kick open the door to see what horrible creature's on the other side.

You had a great time, but did the rest of the party?

Honestly, man, you really seem more suited to video games than you do pen and paper.

It's your group's choice, but when one player can literally take over the game whenever they want to it becomes a major problem and tends to completely ruin the enjoyment.

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 22, 2016, 02:20:05 pm

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed which:
1. Was intended for an actual game.
2. Didn't get DM-veto'd.
3. Had a backstory/character identity that couldn't be summarized in one line.

Vitalist thrallherd who was essentially a lucky anime harem character. So all his thralls were girls between the ages of 16-30 and his main thrall was a tsundere barbarian. He didn't know he was a psionic mind-rapist and all his powers were based around "Nakama" and "Ganbaru!".

Sadly I didn't play it because I ended up feeling it was too strong compared to everyone else. I played a lawful evil anti-paladin instead and it was great if inefficient.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 22, 2016, 06:19:07 pm

You need to accept the fact people might enjoy playing games in different ways than you, and that's no big deal, and stop making assumptions about how people you've never met or interacted with feels about those kind of games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 06:22:51 pm

Quote from: scriver on January 22, 2016, 06:19:07 pm

You need to accept the fact people might enjoy playing games in different ways than you, and that's no big deal, and stop making assumptions about how people you've never met or interacted with feels about those kind of games.

I've no doubt there are and if they're happy with it then it is their choice and their game.

I've yet to find a group that would be happy with one dominant player, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 22, 2016, 06:28:44 pm

nullBolt, please be calm, this thread is for discussion of player and DM experience.  Every table is different, and some groups really, really, like powergaming to the nth degree.  While I personally don't approve of that, I do expect their perspective to be respected in this thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 06:32:02 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on January 22, 2016, 06:28:44 pm

nullBolt, please be calm, this thread is for discussion of player and DM experience.  Every table is different, and some groups really, really, like powergaming to the nth degree.  While I personally don't approve of that, I do expect their perspective to be respected in this thread.

Their viewpoints are respected. I even, in a small way, understand where they're coming from. If their groups are happy with it, then that's their choice.

The issue is that they are misunderstanding the points that people are making in this thread, either wilfully or not. Not even my points, but those of others.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:14:42 pm

Honestly you seem to be doing the most misunderstanding. He's not said, or even implied, that his group has an issue with his playstyle, you (and others) keep seem to automatically assume it and then start berating him for no reason.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 07:16:18 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:14:42 pm

Honestly you seem to be doing the most misunderstanding. He's not said, or even implied, that his group has an issue with his playstyle, you (and others) keep seem to automatically assume it and then start berating him for no reason.

I have actually asked him if his group's happy with it.

He avoids the question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:24:43 pm

Please.  ::). It's not "avoiding the question" if the dude didn't happen to respond to you. And even then, frankly your posts to Jimmy are some of the most arrogant and insulting things I've ever actually seen on bay12. I'm surprised he's respond to you the amount he has.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 07:26:05 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:24:43 pm

Please.  ::). It's not "avoiding the question" if the dude didn't happen to respond to you. And even then, frankly your posts to Jimmy are some of the most arrogant and insulting things I've ever actually seen on bay12. I'm surprised he's respond to you the amount he has.

When he answers everything else, it certainly is.

You're welcome to your views.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:28:41 pm

He's answered nothing else. He's literally not posted on the forum since before you asked the question of him. Your standards are ridiculous.

He's not even logged on since you asked.

Edit: Well, got a bit. Uh. Boldy there. But, that aside. Really, go reread all your posts where you say you don't think he should be playing a game because you think his fun is wrong and then seriously say that type of thing actually deserves a response.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 07:30:34 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:28:41 pm

He's answered nothing else. He's literally not posted on the forum since before you asked the question of him. Your standards are ridiculous.

He's not even logged on since you asked.

I actually asked a few pages back if his group was enjoying it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:34:59 pm

Quote from: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 05:28:52 pm

You had a great time, but did the rest of the party?

As far as I can tell this is the first time you've actually made any effort to understand his groups expectations instead of just arrogantly assuming they are the same as your own and implying he should quit D&D for not playing to your standards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 07:38:46 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 22, 2016, 07:34:59 pm

Quote from: nullBolt on January 22, 2016, 05:28:52 pm

You had a great time, but did the rest of the party?

As far as I can tell this is the first time you've actually made any effort to understand his groups expectations instead of just arrogantly assuming they are the same as your own and implying he should quit D&D for not playing to your standards.

Fucking weird, I could swear I asked a few pages back.

Looked through my posts though and apparently not. I concede that.

It may have been after he was saying that his group was very unoptimised:

Quote from: Jimmy on January 17, 2016, 03:18:40 am

Sadly my party is completely incapable of dealing any significant damage to the beast, with a Rogue/Shadowdancer, Oread Monk and a Rogue/Fighter being the remaining members of the party. They'd have to roll 15 or higher to hit this thing's AC, and even then they'd die from more than two melee hits from it.

I made some responses suggesting that if his group isn't into it, then he should tone it down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 22, 2016, 07:39:08 pm

Right.  Cool down time.

Edit for reopening:  No arguments please.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 23, 2016, 08:39:47 pm

So as you all know I've been making monsters for 5th for fun (and to use later)

One thing I haven't been able to get a handle on how much damage anything should do...

Does anyone have advice?

I do have some concept of AC though
-6: Near motionless
-8: Slow
-10: defenseless
-11: Leather
-12: Thick Leather (leather armor or Aligator skin)
-13: Solid Wood
-14: Supertough leather, Lightly metal armored
-15: Stone
-16: Armored
-17: Solid Stone
-18: Plate or Metal Skinned (or equivalent)
-20: Solid Steel

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 23, 2016, 08:46:11 pm

Doesn't size dictate damage? Like slam and bite attacks are 1d6 for medium creatures and Claws and tailslaps are 1d4's? There's a table for scaling size somewhere

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 23, 2016, 08:47:33 pm

Why are all of those AC values negative? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 23, 2016, 08:52:52 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on January 23, 2016, 08:46:11 pm

Doesn't size dictate damage? Like slam and bite attacks are 1d6 for medium creatures and Claws and tailslaps are 1d4's? There's a table for scaling size somewhere

In a manner of speaking.

Medium: 1 Dice
Large: 3 Dice
Huge: 3-4 dice
Gargantuan: 4+

Now of course, there are exceptions based on how powerful it is. Storm giants are Huge creatures (boardering on Gargantuan) that deal 6 dice of damage.

But damage is more about impact then anything...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 23, 2016, 08:57:07 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 23, 2016, 08:39:47 pm

So as you all know I've been making monsters for 5th for fun (and to use later)

One thing I haven't been able to get a handle on how much damage anything should do...

I've always played with damage on my custom creatures.

Like I had a Krampus that didn't do much direct damage but his primary thing was ice mephits and chains. He also had a permanent snowstorm around him.

So every turn the players would take one extra damage over the last turn (as in they went 1,2,3...n each turn) whilst being bound up by chains and tar pitted by ice mephits. They started to panic when they realised they were down half life and their health was still steadily decreasing.

I don't know what to tell you except to be inventive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 23, 2016, 09:11:53 pm

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155678.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155678.0)

I am sufficiently inventive, but I think I do too much adjustments.

Well I found a bit of it. 2d10 is the damage one receives from being struck by lightning... Which is oddly... less then the Lightning Bolt spell O_o

4d10 is being hit by a collapsing tunnel or jumping into a vat of acid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 23, 2016, 09:38:19 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 23, 2016, 09:11:53 pm

Well I found a bit of it. 2d10 is the damage one receives from being struck by lightning... Which is oddly... less then the Lightning Bolt spell O_o

There's a joke about how it's balanced because of how far away the gods are shooting it from, and something something Firebolt is OP, Wizards are broken, etc. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 23, 2016, 10:09:05 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 23, 2016, 08:47:33 pm

Why are all of those AC values negative? :P

Yeah. That's like some kooky edition hybrid notation

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 23, 2016, 10:09:57 pm

Lightning doesn't always kill you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 23, 2016, 10:10:35 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 23, 2016, 10:09:05 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 23, 2016, 08:47:33 pm

Why are all of those AC values negative? :P

Yeah. That's like some kooky edition hybrid notation

Because I am creating a list silly :P

They aren't negative.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 23, 2016, 10:13:10 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
(:P)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on January 24, 2016, 12:38:22 am

I like how you ordered them. But in 5e, isn't the dice size irrelevant?

I'm mostly good at making 4e monsters... And "good" to me is that it provided a challenge to my players.

Ask Hanzoku, Sirus, Apiks, Th4DwArfY1, or Mastahcheese about my end-game monsters. Undead Wurm, shadow clones of dead party members, a necromancer who had clones of the party fighting with him, and then a shadow demon that grew to I think 6x6 or 7x7 in size and gained max HP every time he grew. And his daily power killed the party's secondary tank after he was attacked twice with claws (he dropped an action point to use the daily power which the area of effect literally said "target: Everyone", which, if it was outside, had roughly a 1 mile radius.

The party's berserker did 200+ damage to it in one turn and it didn't even take it to half health. This thing had like 700hp (mostly because the party could easily dish out well over 100 damage per turn with at-wills alone).The party was an Avenger, a Vampire, a ranger, a sorcerer, a paladin, a wizard, a spellblade, a warlock and a berserker. Those numbers also didn't account for the vampire or the avenger who joined halfway through the fight and were dead but returned characters. So 100 damage without their help. And instead of making it really hard to hit him, I made him have a stupidly high amount of HP to accommodate for the large damage output. The fact the party had no healer outside of a paladin was terrible for he majority of the game though...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2016, 02:05:05 am

I understand but unlike... pathfinder of 3.5

5th edition has a LOT, megatons more, internal consistency as MOST monsters (there are obvious exceptions) feel exactly right for their CR. "Ok so your big, but only big? Well CR 2 perhaps".

Also it isn't so much the dice size as the average.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 24, 2016, 02:10:49 am

Are they by any chance also extremely formulaic?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2016, 02:14:07 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 24, 2016, 02:10:49 am

Are they by any chance also extremely formulaic?

Not really.

I mean they don't include things like status effects in the calculations and sometimes they include things that SERIOUSLY stop being a factor by the time you fight them (The Golems being a big one)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 24, 2016, 02:54:42 am

I meant 'are the monsters themselves formulaic?'.

That was starting to become an issue even in 3e. With many stats being determined, via a one-size-fits-all formula, from other stats of questionable relevance, so that - for example - any two creatures with the same hd and constitution score will have the same exact save dc for any breath weapon they may have (despite any differences they may have and even of one has a dex score of 1 and can barely aim it's weapon), and giants receive skill points from hit dice meant to represent sheer immensity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2016, 02:59:45 am

I guess what I mean is

If I want my Spider to be a better wizard in game... It should wear a Monocle for every level of Wizard it has.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: nullBolt on January 24, 2016, 04:35:30 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 24, 2016, 02:59:45 am

I guess what I mean is

If I want my Spider to be a better wizard in game... It should wear a Monocle for every level of Wizard it has.

Is that show still running? I can't even remember what it was called.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2016, 04:53:55 am

Quote from: nullBolt on January 24, 2016, 04:35:30 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 24, 2016, 02:59:45 am

I guess what I mean is

If I want my Spider to be a better wizard in game... It should wear a Monocle for every level of Wizard it has.

Is that show still running? I can't even remember what it was called.

Unforgotten Realms and UNFORTUNATELY... while the answer is kind of yes last I checked... When they remade the show they transformed it from a funny parody of Dungeons and dragons that SOMETIMES had a videogame reference (Like the WoW group being in an episode)... into a videogame parody with no real connection and thus kind of weakening the comedy.

I stopped watching when it became a parody of Assassin's creed.

So... Yes... but you won't want to watch what it turned into.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 24, 2016, 02:25:54 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 24, 2016, 02:54:42 am

I meant 'are the monsters themselves formulaic?'.

That was starting to become an issue even in 3e. With many stats being determined, via a one-size-fits-all formula, from other stats of questionable relevance, so that - for example - any two creatures with the same hd and constitution score will have the same exact save dc for any breath weapon they may have (despite any differences they may have and even of one has a dex score of 1 and can barely aim it's weapon), and giants receive skill points from hit dice meant to represent sheer immensity.

There are formulas for things like DCs, but they're never called out, IIRC. You are free to disregard them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 24, 2016, 07:06:16 pm

Is it against the rules for a ranger to ready an action to fire through a door once it is opened, essentially gaining a surprise round that only he can act in?

Our ranger had been doing it all session, and always killed at least one enemy. Then he almost always goes first and clears the rest of the room because even when he rolls a one, his initiative will be among the highest of the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2016, 07:08:42 pm

I'm not sure if it's allowed, but if the DM and everyone else are fine with it..

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 24, 2016, 07:09:42 pm

There was an argument about it. As I mentioned, almost all the kills were his.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2016, 07:13:18 pm

I don't know if it's legal, but I'd handle it as giving the entire party a surprise round.  And if they burst into 2-3 empty rooms that way, it stops working unless they actually detect enemies on the other side first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 24, 2016, 07:20:47 pm

The GM just needs to stop having enemies behind the door.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 24, 2016, 07:23:51 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 24, 2016, 07:20:47 pm

The GM just needs to stop having enemies behind the door.

Instead, have the enemy be the door

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2016, 07:24:52 pm

The door requires ample amounts of shoving, but just before the last blow it opens and the party falls into an abyss.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 24, 2016, 07:29:19 pm

Behind one door is a pile of gold and magic items, and behind the other two are goat demons.
Make your choice wisely!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2016, 07:29:47 pm

Mimics, is there any problem they can't solve?
Alternatively, have a band of kobolds (or other high-listen ranged units) waiting on the other side of the door with a readied action to fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 24, 2016, 07:30:34 pm

It's an adventure path. Not the DM's fault that every door is shut. We're retaking an entire citadel by ourselves, and apparently no-one is supposed to care that we aren't subtle.

More than a few APs are like that, unfortunately. Despite being in areas completely filled to the brim with hostiles, some APs even note that leaving to rest and heal has no effect on the enemy's placement or tactics.

Then there's other like Giantslayer, that literally throw dozens of waves of enemies at you without you even leaving the immediate area. Or the DM misinterpreted what it meant by 'the city is under siege by hundreds of orcs'. But I don't know about that first-hand; I heard about that from another group, who promptly rage-quit on that DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 24, 2016, 08:18:38 pm

So basically you're playing Rainbow Six in D&D?  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 24, 2016, 09:03:45 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 24, 2016, 07:30:34 pm

It's an adventure path. Not the DM's fault that every door is shut. We're retaking an entire citadel by ourselves, and apparently no-one is supposed to care that we aren't subtle.

More than a few APs are like that, unfortunately. Despite being in areas completely filled to the brim with hostiles, some APs even note that leaving to rest and heal has no effect on the enemy's placement or tactics.

That's badly written. I blame videogames.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 24, 2016, 09:11:03 pm

Pathfinder Adventure Paths are, from what I understand, written assuming that the playing group is made of four people with little to no experience with tabletop games.

Still more than a few curveballs from time to time though. There was one I played where at level two, we had important perception checks we missed because the DCs were higher than 30. Or in this campaign, there was an area with swarms immune to physical attacks, took half damage from magic, and had spell-resistance 20. We were level 6. That's 14 or higher on the die for a full-spellcaster that is not optimized, or more for classes that do not treat all their class-levels as caster-levels, such as the Ranger or Paladin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2016, 09:14:39 pm

Swarms are cool, but with spell resistance??
I guess you're supposed to use torches and alchemist fire?
Or wait, spell resistance doesn't help against - no nevermind, it does protect against area of effect evocation (SOMEHOW!?).  Just as weird as evasion...  I guess.  But more effective than antimagic in that regard O_o

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 24, 2016, 09:20:57 pm

Pretty sure alchemical objects are typically supernatural, not spell-like, so I think they would ignore SR. Though I haven't gone over the differences between spells, spell-likes, and supernaturals in a while.

Kind of a moot point though, as they were also semi-demonic or something, so they had elemental resistances as well.

Edit:
Here is the swarm. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Vescavor%20Swarm)
Here is the swarm queen. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Vescavor%20Queen)

We had to fight about three swarms and the queen at the same time, and before that was a fight with about four swarms. Everybody lost a shit-ton of gear to their Ravenous ability, and at least two people got screwed by their Confusion effect.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2016, 09:40:27 pm

oh nice they fly too
I don't know how much XP 1600 is, but these look absurd for a level 6 group.  I honestly don't know how you're supposed to hurt them.  This is like being attacked by a group of flying invulnerable rust monsters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 24, 2016, 09:45:06 pm

Literally just magic, with good rolls. One of the other players said that last time they played this campaign, the DM gave them a wand of cone of cold just so they could harm these things.

I was a Kineticist, so I used Fan of Flames, an AOE ability, which swarms take bonus damage from. I was the only one who could do anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 27, 2016, 11:40:57 pm

New campaign which I declined to join, but listen in on sometimes:

Wizard: "Dragon's breath rounds prove the existence of gunpowder"
*blah blah blah*
DM: "Spell thermite?"
*bluh bluh huge powergamer*
"They not only perfected glassmaking, but also purification of silver and gold"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 27, 2016, 11:42:26 pm

Hmmmmm.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 28, 2016, 12:10:39 am

It occurs to me hat it would make a lot of sense for magic scrolls to be traded in lieu of coin in large transactions, like a sort of jumbo-sized (iirc canonically they're about the size of a sheet of printer paper) paper currency, but unlike either paper currency OR gold, magic scrolls are intrinsically valuable.

(The Epic Level Handbook mentioned something about powerful magic organizations issuing transferrable IOUs for spellcasting in lieu of cash, but why wouldn't they simply use scrolls)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 28, 2016, 12:40:22 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 28, 2016, 12:10:39 am

(The Epic Level Handbook mentioned something about powerful magic organizations issuing transferrable IOUs for spellcasting in lieu of cash, but why wouldn't they simply use scrolls)

A lot of reasons. A scroll can't be broken down into fractional parts. A scroll has one use, and can't be redeemed for more than one spell. Scrolls cost gold, time and XP to make.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 28, 2016, 06:26:53 am

Diamond dust is intrinsically the same. Per RAW, diamond dust, as a gem, is a trade good and can be sold for full value. Other options include 100 gp pearls suitable for the material component of the Identify spell, and given it's used to identify every magical item in 3.5e, must be fairly widespread.

One thing always bothered me: How do shopkeepers identify whatever magical crap you're pawning? Unless they've got spellcaster ranks and are burning the cost of the identification out of their own pocket, it seems a little strange.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on January 28, 2016, 06:30:07 am

I would imagine that the shopkeepers dealing with magical items have ways to identify magic items. You probably aren't selling your magical items at a bakery, but at a specialized shop.
That is how I would explain it at least.
Besides... have you actually tried cheating a shopkeeper? maybe it works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 28, 2016, 06:37:04 am

Oldest trick in the book: Cast the Mount spell, sell the horse, book it out of town before the spell duration expires.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 28, 2016, 07:29:27 am

Coins can be broken down into fractionals, or even just melted down for the gold. Everyone uses gold. Kings, peasants, wizards. Gold is a currency that anyone can use.

Magic scrolls not so much. If you want to use it yourself, you need magical ability. It's of limited use depending who you want to trade it to - is an architect going to want to be paid in a scroll of fireball? No, he'll want gold, because otherwise he needs to find a wizard to sell it to who will probably gouge him on the price.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 28, 2016, 08:07:40 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 28, 2016, 06:37:04 am

Oldest trick in the book: Cast the Mount spell, sell the horse, book it out of town before the spell duration expires.

False. It's actually stated that the "horse" is spectral in form, and thus easily recognizable as not actually a horse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 28, 2016, 08:09:49 am

"IZ BETTER THEN HORSE! IS MAGIC HORSE! NEVER STOP RUNNING IT'S WHOLE LIFE!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on January 28, 2016, 08:17:00 am

"Make a Bluff check."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 28, 2016, 11:46:39 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 28, 2016, 06:26:53 am

Diamond dust is intrinsically the same. Per RAW, diamond dust, as a gem, is a trade good and can be sold for full value. Other options include 100 gp pearls suitable for the material component of the Identify spell, and given it's used to identify every magical item in 3.5e, must be fairly widespread.

One thing always bothered me: How do shopkeepers identify whatever magical crap you're pawning? Unless they've got spellcaster ranks and are burning the cost of the identification out of their own pocket, it seems a little strange.

Yeah, that identify price is out of control. Personally I'd houserule it down.

That said, I'm sure a lot of items' functions are self-evident if you're familiar with that type of item. Not rings or weapons and armor perhaps, but wondrous items seem to generally have pretty distinctive appearances

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 28, 2016, 12:12:57 pm

Why's it out of control? Magic items are like, super expensive in D&D. Even the cheap ones typically cost an order of magnitude more then the pearl. If you can afford to mess around with magic items, honestly the pearl cost involved is not so much. Anyone who can't afford to pour out pearls (or if they work for big organizations that have enough volume of magic items going though them have a custom magic item made to handle it) also can't afford to be in the magic item trade.

Edit: Sure, you might have like, shitty random peddler who's gotten his hands on some minor (or possible major, plooooot hook!) item, but it's probably okay that that type can't identify the item with 100% certainty anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 28, 2016, 03:42:02 pm

Shopkeepers already undercut prices when you sell to them and overprice items that they sell to you, it's perfectly reasonable for them to fold the cost of identification into the sale.

Of course once they're dealing with stuff worth tens of thousands of gold, the price of a hundred identifications barely scratches the potential profit margin on a single one.

I also seem to recall a shopkeeper who sold magic items with only vague descriptions instead of identification, and also sold slightly overpriced pearls for Identify with an additional charge for him to do it if you couldn't cast the spell yourself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 28, 2016, 04:54:23 pm

There are quite a few fudges DMs commonly make for the sake of the game.

The Most prolific one is "free healing" which yeah even the most altruistic churches often would hold out until you donated its worth.

Identification at least makes sense in terms of being worth something to the shop keeper.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 28, 2016, 04:58:33 pm

Idk... Healing is one thing that might actually make sense for it to be free. At least in 3.5 clerics of good alignment can spontaneously swap out their spells for healing anyway, catch them at the end of the day and they might as well heal you, at that point it's use it or loose it. Although certainly in big cities or w/e there's probably more wounded people then clerics to heal them, but certainly some of the time, and especially from good aligned clerics, I could certainly see that being given away for free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 28, 2016, 05:08:53 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 28, 2016, 04:58:33 pm

Idk... Healing is one thing that might actually make sense for it to be free. At least in 3.5 clerics of good alignment can spontaneously swap out their spells for healing anyway, catch them at the end of the day and they might as well heal you, at that point it's use it or loose it. Although certainly in big cities or w/e there's probably more wounded people then clerics to heal them, but certainly some of the time, and especially from good aligned clerics, I could certainly see that being given away for free.

It has a lot to do with you being considered capable of making the donation, after all you are not the unfortunate who could never hope to pay for healing, and the fact that the churches need donations to run anyway. Plus training Clerics isn't cheap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 28, 2016, 05:13:20 pm

Well. Maybe? Certainly some churches would be like that. Probably depends on a God by God and GM by GM basis. Although not all players are swimming in the cash, especially at low levels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 28, 2016, 09:46:34 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on January 28, 2016, 08:07:40 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 28, 2016, 06:37:04 am

Oldest trick in the book: Cast the Mount spell, sell the horse, book it out of town before the spell duration expires.

False. It's actually stated that the "horse" is spectral in form, and thus easily recognizable as not actually a horse.

Not in 3.5e it's not.

From the PHB text:

You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle.

Material Component: A bit of horse hair.

You might be thinking of Phantom Steed, which is a better version of Mount that summons a quasi-real horselike creature. But short of DM fiat, nothing supports the Mount spell creating anything but a bog standard light horse or pony (equipped with bridle and saddle).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 28, 2016, 09:53:14 pm

Ah, phantom steed.  Technically not shadow magic, but it feels similar.  One of my biggest DND regrets is that my bard character, who focused on shadow magic due to a mostly-undead campaign, died before he could really do anything.

I think that Shadow magic is, basically, a mix of illusion and conjuration.  Undead are immune to illusions, but shadow-things are just real enough to affect them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 28, 2016, 11:14:14 pm

Ever hit a snag where you want something for your character, but the only options are to either use unstable stop-gaps, go through hoops as fuck processes and hope the GM can't poke any holes in them/the wording isn't being misinterpreted, or completely rebuild your character?

I'm about there right now, with a few different things.

The first thing I want is to get my effective Sorcerer level to equal or surpass my character level for the sake of Eldritch Heritage. The only way to do this that I can see is to either grab Improved and Greater Eldritch Heritage (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Greater%20Eldritch%20Heritage), and hope it applies to Mythic Eldritch Heritage while lamenting my lack of feats; to rebuild my Mythic progression so that I take the Archmage (http://archivesofnethys.com/PathAbilities.aspx?Path=Archmage) instead of what I have now and grab Mythic Bloodline; or to grab an item such as the Robe of Arcane Heritage (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Robe%20of%20Arcane%20Heritage), which can be shut down by a mage with dispel and a half-decent roll.

Another thing I want is Damage Reduction. Wording has already foiled my initial plan for this. My Barbarian class and its archetype give me DR equal to half my level. By taking three Rage Powers I can increase this by another three. Or six, if I use the Unchained version of the Improved DR Power.

By taking the feats Endurance (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Endurance), Diehard (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Diehard), Combat Expertise (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Combat%20Expertise), Stalwart (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Stalwart), and Improved Stalwart (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Improved%20Stalwart), I can increase this by another ten at the expense of literally half my feats. Though I was hoping I can take Traits and Rage Powers that give me the equivalent of these feats, with the GM not deciding that they do not count towards this plan, even though they say that they are treated as though they were the respective feats. Numerous Traits and Racial Abilities are able to take the place of both Diehard and Endurance, though again, the GM may rule that they do not do what they say they do. It has happened in the past.

There's also taking the Guardian (http://archivesofnethys.com/PathAbilities.aspx?Path=Guardian) Path Ability, Impervious Body, that gives you DR/Epic. Though Epic is actually pretty simple to bypass, all considered. You need a +6 equivalent weapon. Not +6 enhancement, but a +6 effective total. So a +1 weapon with a bunch of miscellaneous enchantments on it can penetrate DR/Epic, even though other forms of DR demand that it be a specific enhancement bonus. Meaning that +1 Sword of Miscellaneous Uselessness can bypass DR/Epic, but not DR/Silver or Cold Iron, because it isn't +2.

There are three GMs for this campaign who switch in and out depending on who feels like DMing, and some can be rather harsh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 12:17:09 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 28, 2016, 07:29:27 am

Coins can be broken down into fractionals, or even just melted down for the gold.

You can also shave down the edges a little bit and sell the gold then still use the coin

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 28, 2016, 12:12:57 pm

Why's it out of control? Magic items are like, super expensive in D&D. Even the cheap ones typically cost an order of magnitude more then the pearl.

Except for feather tokens which bottom out at 50 gp and the magic facepaints described in Dragon 337, which bottom out at 22 gp

Hey, that could be out next list! We'll come up with 101 ideas for cheap magic items!

I'll start:

1.) Feather Token (Blades): When activated the vane of the feather turns into a medium +1 shortsword and the shaft of the feather turns into a medium +1 dagger. After 1 hour they turn irrevocably back into pieces of feather. (Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, major creation; Price somewhere between 70 and 350gp [price estimated based on the whip feather token which conjures a single +4 weapon for 1 hour and costs 500 gp; a +4 weapon costs about 7.5 times as much as two +1 weapons, but I don't think the price of the token should scale down directly])

2.) Belt of the Champion: grants a +1 enhancement bonus to grapple checks to pin an opponent or break a pin or damage an opponent (Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person; Price ~200 gp???)

3.) Ring of Blessed Health: +1 sacred bonus to fortitude saves to avoid contracting Demon Fever, Devil Chills, and Faceless Hate. Up to thrice per week it also applies this bonus to saves to avoid damage from one of these diseases, but only if the character succeeded on the previous day's save while wearing the ring. (Faint abjuration; CL 12th; Forge Ring, resistance, protection from evil; Price ??? gp)

4.) Bag of Tricks (Sky Blue): As existing bags of tricks with the following list of possible animals: Bat 1-20, Raven 21-40, Robin (use raven stats) 41-60, Owl 61-80, Flying Squirrel [stats in Dragon 327; add 5 to the ranges for raven, robin, and owl if you don't have that issue] 81-95, Hawk 96-100. (Faint conjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, summon nature's ally 1; Price <850 gp, prolly around 400-500)

EDIT:

5.) Overloading Wand: Cheaper shoddier version of regular wand. If used more than 2 times in the same 24 hour period the additional uses have the chance of a mishap similar to a scroll mishap (use the same rules) and burn an extra charge. It cannot be used more that 5 times in any given 24 hour period. (aura varies; cl varies; Craft wand, spell varies; Price 80% of price of a normal wand of the same spell)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 29, 2016, 12:21:42 am

Mind you a shopkeeper might assume certain items are what they say they are by appearance.

Feather tokens are distinct and aren't really confused for any other magic item.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 12:32:41 am

If you're going to make feather tokens, at least make them in the vein of the ones that inspire thoughts of "No, really, I'll find a situation to use this in one day and I'll remember that I have it, and it'll be really cool!"  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 29, 2016, 12:48:12 am

I think it's token time, boys.

The boat and oak tokens are the most useful. Trust me. Two oak tokens are usually enough to block a standard dungeon hallway.

6) Feather Token (mugs)

• When set upon a table and the command word spoken, one mug per person at the table shall spawn, containing a drink determined by the creator of the spell. The mugs shall refill themselves for three hours before no longer working. (Faint conjuration; CL 6; Create food and water; Price: 250GP)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on January 29, 2016, 01:00:19 am

Oak tokens? As in, summon a full-grown tree?
My old group used one of those to take out one of the Big Bads, simply by activating it in the cellar/basement beneath his wizardly tower.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 01:32:15 am

7.) Figurine of Wondrous Power (Paper Tiger): When activated this paper-mache figurine becomes a tiger that prows around and defends a person or area designated by the user. It is only for show or intimidation however; it deals damage as a housecat, flees from water (rain or the brandishing of buckets at it cause it to automatically become panicked) and fire (will not come within 5 feet of an open flame; brandishing a torch at it or casting fire spells where it can see cause it to become panicked), and is returned to statue form and must stay that way for a full week if even a single point of damage is dealt to it (even nonlethal damage) or if it is immersed or drenched in water. It can stay in tiger form for no more than 2 hours per day and no more than 9 hours per week. (Moderate Transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate objects OR fabricate + unseen servant + cat's grace; price ??? 900??)

EDIT:

8.) Feather Token (Campfire): Creates a burning campfire wih enough firewood to burn for an hour. The fire is nonmagical, can be put out by normal means, and can burn for additional time if more fuel is added. (Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, major creation; Price ~75-300 gp)

9.) Feather Token (grapnel): Conjures a grappling hook which shoots out and latches onto anything within 300 feet that's specified by the user (Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, major creation; Price ~100-350 gp)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on January 29, 2016, 01:54:28 am

8.) Oil of Bigger Spear: When applied liberally to the shaft of a weapon, causes the weapon to grow one size category for the duration of one encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 29, 2016, 02:44:55 am

Quote from: scriver on January 29, 2016, 01:54:28 am

8.) Oil of Bigger Spear: When applied liberally to the shaft of a weapon, causes the weapon to grow one size category for the duration of one encounter.

Ha ha

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 02:58:00 am

9. Meleegra™ pills. These tiny blue pills are supposed to enlarge your weapon and make you be able to attack for hours on end without tiring. You're not sure how a pill could affect your weapon, but they seem to work. +1 damage for four hours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sensei on January 29, 2016, 03:11:41 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 02:58:00 am

9. Meleegra™ pills. These tiny blue pills are supposed to enlarge your weapon and make you be able to attack for hours on end without tiring. You're not sure how a pill could affect your weapon, but they seem to work. +1 damage for four hours.

Heh, is that the one from Kingdom of Loathing?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Eric Blank on January 29, 2016, 03:15:13 am

10.) Feather token (angry badger) a smash hit with professional pranksters, when used summons a badger for 30 seconds or 3 combat rounds. Badger behaves as normal for wild creature of its type, but vanishes if it takes any damage. Badger feels no affiliation for anyone present when summoned and cannot be controlled or commanded, but is summoned facing away from caster and most likely to attack targets in its field of view if everyone behind it shuts the hell up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 03:15:34 am

Quote from: Sensei on January 29, 2016, 03:11:41 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 02:58:00 am

9. Meleegra™ pills. These tiny blue pills are supposed to enlarge your weapon and make you be able to attack for hours on end without tiring. You're not sure how a pill could affect your weapon, but they seem to work. +1 damage for four hours.

Heh, is that the one from Kingdom of Loathing?

Yeah, I couldn't help but steal it. It was too great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sensei on January 29, 2016, 05:02:09 am

11). Bipolar weapon. Each morning, flip a coin. If heads, the weapon has a +1 magic bonus to attack and damage for 24 hours. If tails, the weapon is a cursed -1 weapon for 24 hours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 06:53:40 am

12.) Multipurpose Rod: Upon using a specified code word, this long stick transforms into either a longsword (1d6, no proficiency bonus), average fishing pole, bug net, javelin (also 1d6), or arrow (whatever arrow damage is). They're all super easy to break.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 29, 2016, 08:23:59 am

13) Magical Aphid: when attached to another magic item, the Magical Aphid guarantees it will malfunction catastrophically when next used. Its whimsical design and gold filigree makes it likely to be confused for a design element of the original item. The Magical Aphid has only one charge (good for a single catastrophic malfunction), and it disintegrates in the process of activation¹.

14) Silvered Monkey: a small figurine of a monkey that can form vague gestures of appreciation, greeting, apology, hostility and plaintive behavior, among other things, in every language and culture known to mortals as well as several others. Guaranteed to be exactly as offensive as you want it to be, with higher quality models offering up to 7 layers of increasingly arcane meaning.

---

_{1. Some residue may remain of the Magical Aphid if it has spent more than a single day on the object in question. Do not be alarmed. Collect the residue and mail it back to your local outlet of the Brotherhood of Entomological Enchanters for a 10-30% refund, depending on the quantity of residue collected.}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on January 29, 2016, 09:28:26 am

15.

Choker of Vocal Disguise
Aura faint illusion; CL 1st
Slot neck; Price 500 gp; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

This appears to be a piece of velvet cloth with a silver or gold clasp bearing a single gemstone worn over the throat.

When worn, the choker can be activated with one of three command words. Doing so will alter the speaker's voice to sound like that of another person for one minute. The available options are little girl, old man, or demonic creature.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, ventriloquism; Cost 250 gp

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 29, 2016, 09:48:06 am

That choker reminds me of a recipe for Strawberry Eggs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on January 29, 2016, 11:19:17 am

16: Greataxe of Hewing.

This enchanted Greataxe gives you an additional +1 to attempts to fell trees, and cannot be blunted by wood

17: Jar of Thundering

When activated, this small, glass jar flashes brightly and emits a deafening thunderclap that can be heard up to six miles away on open ground.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 12:42:04 pm

18.) Paperfloat: A square 1-inch tile which, if placed beneath a small stack of papers, will cause them to float a short distance above it and anchor them in place, preventing them from being disturbed by light breezes and drafts (faint transmutation; cl 3; Craft Wondrous Item, prestidigitation OR mage hand; Price ~8-36 gp)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on January 29, 2016, 03:00:09 pm

19) Vial of Whispers: A crystal jar small enough to fit in the palm of one's hand, with a simple stopper. If unstopped or shattered, a faint puff of smoke escapes and creatures within 10 feet of the vial will hear a faint voice telling them eldritch secrets. Creatures affected this way will be Shaken for 1d4-1 rounds. (Faint transmutation; CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, Message; 75 GP)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 03:04:42 pm

1d4-1 can equal 0..

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on January 29, 2016, 03:07:47 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 03:04:42 pm

1d4-1 can equal 0..

Yup.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 29, 2016, 03:08:18 pm

It's a wondrous item that costs less than 100gp, what did you expect?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 29, 2016, 03:15:29 pm

Ohhh you use it against other people?
But... eldritch secrets :D

Alternate name:  Arcane IPod, or octarine-noise generator

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 03:21:42 pm

:P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 03:43:51 pm

Quote from: flabort on January 29, 2016, 03:07:47 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 03:04:42 pm

1d4-1 can equal 0..

Yup.

IIRC usually that ususally has to be specified actually. Otherwise everything is rounded up to 1

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 29, 2016, 03:52:37 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 03:43:51 pm

Quote from: flabort on January 29, 2016, 03:07:47 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 03:04:42 pm

1d4-1 can equal 0..

Yup.

IIRC usually that ususally has to be specified actually. Otherwise everything is rounded up to 1

I'm pretty sure that's just the rules for damage rolls and not a general rule? Although idk...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 05:20:25 pm

If you're open to 5e, Neonivek is running a game with one slot left.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 08:09:16 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 29, 2016, 04:09:04 pm

I'm just walking into this thread right now to ask if anyone has any upcoming pathfinder games I could join.

I'm feeling somewhat deprived right now, having not played it for a good long period.

Where are you at? I don't have any upcoming games but I know yhere's at ;east one other person in my area whose looking for a game, so if you turned out to be in the same area as me and him we'd only need one or two more people to have enough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 08:38:19 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 05:20:25 pm

If you're open to 5e, Neonivek is running a game with one slot left.

Hrrg, I want to join, but between new job and ongoing grad school I just know I'd neglect it, so I won't. :x

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on January 29, 2016, 08:50:14 pm

PTW

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 08:52:11 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 08:38:19 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 05:20:25 pm

If you're open to 5e, Neonivek is running a game with one slot left.

Hrrg, I want to join, but between new job and ongoing grad school I just know I'd neglect it, so I won't. :x

It isn't PBP, if that changes anything, but good luck with the new job!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 08:57:43 pm

Hrrg, I can't find the copy of the 5e PHB...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 09:00:09 pm

This (http://www.5esrd.com) site is pretty helpful, but some of the other things you'll need to go to other places for. _{so basically google "d&d 5e [whatever you need]" like i've been doing}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 09:02:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 08:57:43 pm

Hrrg, I can't find the copy of the 5e PHB...

Here's the SRD in its full, if that helps. (http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/SRD-OGL_V1.1.pdf)

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 09:00:09 pm

This (http://www.5esrd.com) site is pretty helpful, but some of the other things you'll need to go to other places for. _{so basically google "d&d 5e [whatever you need]" like i've been doing}

what the actual fuck is this shit (http://www.5esrd.com/races/3rd-party-publisher-races/silver-games-llc---races/pony)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 29, 2016, 09:03:36 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 08:57:43 pm

Hrrg, I can't find the copy of the 5e PHB...

media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/playerdndbasicrules_v0.2.pdf
media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/SRD-OGL_V1.1.pdf

If you want the full thing ou have to buy it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 29, 2016, 09:05:31 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 09:00:09 pm

This (http://www.5esrd.com) site is pretty helpful, but some of the other things you'll need to go to other places for. _{so basically google "d&d 5e [whatever you need]" like i've been doing}

I can't believe how many races there are for pony characters on that site. There's more ponies than non-ponies O_o

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 29, 2016, 09:06:46 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 09:02:29 pm

what the actual fuck is this shit

A Third-Party-Publisher race. If it helps, there is a rework (http://paizo.com/products/btpy979q?Ponyfinder-Campaign-Setting) of the Pathfinder system that runs along a similar theme. Probably because it is the same publisher.

I still find it kind of funny that Paizo sells 3pp products for their own game. Which in itself started as 3pp to D&D 3.5ed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 09:08:38 pm

Oh. Oh my god. I had no idea. I.. I've touched the realm of evil...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 09:18:04 pm

Quote from: Sirus on January 29, 2016, 09:05:31 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 09:00:09 pm

This (http://www.5esrd.com) site is pretty helpful, but some of the other things you'll need to go to other places for. _{so basically google "d&d 5e [whatever you need]" like i've been doing}

I can't believe how many races there are for pony characters on that site. There's more ponies than non-ponies O_o

I can't believe how OP the Unicorns are. Advantage on a Skill, replacing Str with Int and a threatened area of 30 feet?
But that said, that Gearforged race has some awesome flavor. Different publisher, though.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 29, 2016, 09:06:46 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 09:02:29 pm

what the actual fuck is this shit

A Third-Party-Publisher race. If it helps, there is a rework (http://paizo.com/products/btpy979q?Ponyfinder-Campaign-Setting) of the Pathfinder system that runs along a similar theme. Probably because it is the same publisher.

I found their website. They're selling a pony-campaign setting for $40.
I have no words.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 09:25:22 pm

There's a 5e wiki that seems legal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 09:36:30 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 09:18:04 pm

Quote from: Sirus on January 29, 2016, 09:05:31 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 29, 2016, 09:00:09 pm

This (http://www.5esrd.com) site is pretty helpful, but some of the other things you'll need to go to other places for. _{so basically google "d&d 5e [whatever you need]" like i've been doing}

I can't believe how many races there are for pony characters on that site. There's more ponies than non-ponies O_o

I can't believe how OP the Unicorns are. Advantage on a Skill, replacing Str with Int and a threatened area of 30 feet?
But that said, that Gearforged race has some awesome flavor. Different publisher, though.

If you can't have your special-snowflake fetish content be overpowered why have it at all, amirite? Probably for the best that they gave that INT->STR and 30' threatened area (on a Medium creature? ahahahahahahahahahaha) to something so widely reviled, else it'd have to percolate onto every DM's ban list over the course of the next few years.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on January 29, 2016, 09:41:07 pm

Damn, that's silly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 10:04:21 pm

Yeah, it's like... that was a major class feature for the Swashbuckler (and one of the things that helped make it viable... as part of a single tier 3-4 multiclass build) when it was only INT->STR for bonus damage, only with finesse weapons, only against things not immune to precision damage,  only when wearing light armor, and only when carrying a light load or less. And they just tack it on to a race with a bunch of other heavy advantages without any apparent drawbacks. Fuckin' obsessive fanboys.

Ahahajesush, I read the rest of the page.

In addition to already listed stuff, let's count it off:

Free +1 CON
Base speed 40ft
150% carry weight
Advantage on rolls to avoid falling prone
Free language

OH LOOK THEY'RE TREATED AS SMALL FOR WIELDING WEAPONS, WHAT A DRAWBACK  ::)

At least only that one sub-race is stupid. By the by it also eliminates the one downside to this pile of shit.

Oh, and the 30' isn't just your threatened area . That's also the range for your free unlimited telekinesis. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 10:06:37 pm

Pony Rogue with Assassin subclass

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 10:08:03 pm

OhArmokandtheEmperorPURGETHISHERESY.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 10:18:36 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 10:04:21 pm

Oh, and the 30' isn't just your threatened area . That's also the range for your free unlimited telekinesis. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

From what I see, there's no reason you can't make a Attack of Opportunity from that range. Sure, the distinction between "Reach and the Telekinesis is there, but it could be made to work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on January 29, 2016, 10:19:50 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 10:08:03 pm

OhArmokandtheEmperorPURGETHISHERESY.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-nuke-it-from-orbit-1.png)

Edit: That was bigger than I thought, spoilering.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 10:21:28 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 10:08:03 pm

OhArmokandtheEmperorPURGETHISHERESY.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/3xvpfLL.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/B6I9a88.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 10:22:24 pm

Here's a random thought I've had. I think that for the purposes of critical hit confirmation rolls the size modifiers to attack roll and ac should be inverted; the negative ones should be positive and the positive ones should be negative. So a very small creature would have trouble confirming a critical on a very large creature but a very large creature would have a quite easy time confirming a critical against that very small creature.

My reasoning is this, a smaller creature is going to be hacking at a larger creature's shins, they're going to have trouble reaching any vital organ (with the possible exception of the femoral artery if the opponent has one of those). Meanwhile, a large creature wielding a weapon larger than it's opponent is going to come close to hitting all the vital organs every time it lands a blow.


-------------------------------

Quote from: greatorder on January 29, 2016, 09:22:04 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 08:09:16 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 29, 2016, 04:09:04 pm

I'm just walking into this thread right now to ask if anyone has any upcoming pathfinder games I could join.

I'm feeling somewhat deprived right now, having not played it for a good long period.

Where are you at? I don't have any upcoming games but I know yhere's at ;east one other person in my area whose looking for a game, so if you turned out to be in the same area as me and him we'd only need one or two more people to have enough.

Is said friend in the UK to start off with? If not, then it's no bueno.

Nope

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 10:29:57 pm

That'd make a solid houserule, I think. It'd certainly help offset the "lol strongheart halfling" trend. It's never made sense to me why a shin-kicker with a knitting needle-sized rapier would be more likely to hit an organ or whatever than a dude the size of a car with a sword the size of a slightly smaller car. Apart from trying to keep two sorta-viable monodimensional builds for martial combatants firmly separated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on January 29, 2016, 10:32:18 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 10:21:28 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on January 29, 2016, 10:08:03 pm

OhArmokandtheEmperorPURGETHISHERESY.

(http://i.imgur.com/B6I9a88.gif)

Oh I am saving this.

Re crit confirmation changes: Sounds good in theory. Someone should run a test combat to see how well it might work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 29, 2016, 10:42:11 pm

Larger creatures are naturally stronger, thus they tend to hit harder in general.  A critical is a strike in a specifically vulnerable place.

I've always thought it was super weird that you need a special feat to use dexterity on light weapon attack rolls.  Like not only is everyone clubbing each other with their swords (purely using STR and feats to determine damage, dexterity not a factor) but being dextrous doesn't even make them more accurate.  Being *strong* makes you more accurate.  Even with a pair of daggers, or a rapier, unless you take a special feat.

I do kinda get it for non-light weapons, since redirecting a heavy sword swing isn't like picking a lock.  And maybe...  Oh, okay, 5th edition did fix this pretty much.
(Though you can still brute-force a finesse weapon, which is amusing.  Basically punching people while holding something sharp)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on January 29, 2016, 10:44:23 pm

I think the point is that you don't need to try to hit something important when smashing a halfling with a mace the size of a car.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 29, 2016, 10:48:11 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://img0.joyreactor.com/pics/comment/warhammer-40000-space-marine-Imperium-Raven-Guard-2070250.gif)

There's also feats like Power Attack/Deadly Aim, or Combat Expertise. Like we somehow don't realize that trying to hit with more force allows you to deal more damage.

Or feats that allow you to deal different types of damage with your weapon. Which of course means that we need special training in order to know that we can hurt people with the pointy end of our sword, as well as the sharp sides. Because that was apparently not included in the training we underwent to be able to use the weapon proficiently.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 10:50:09 pm

You know how to use a sword really well, but not efficiently.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on January 29, 2016, 10:51:45 pm

Which basically means you can have a PHD in smashing people piecemeal with the sides of a sword, but still not realize you can  stab things with it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 29, 2016, 10:52:46 pm

yes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 29, 2016, 10:52:52 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Augsburg_Cod.I.6.4%C2%BA.2_%28Codex_Wallerstein%29_107v.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 29, 2016, 10:54:18 pm

Power Attack is a little weird, yeah.  With training, you learn to swing more wildly and thus harder...  Kinda sounds like the opposite of training :P

Fakedit:  Wow, I was going to joke that swords should be double weapons.  Butt that is not the second part I had in mind.

Quote from: Amperzand on January 29, 2016, 10:44:23 pm

I think the point is that you don't need to try to hit something important when smashing a halfling with a mace the size of a car.

If you're spreading the blow across most of their body, you shouldn't get a "precision" bonus.  Rather the opposite.
It is easier to bull rush, or even "trip" (known down) a smaller creature.  Plus you have a relative damage bonus from your weapon size, and your strength as a medium creature.

What's a little weird is that not-hobbits have no HP penalty, in fact they have a bonus to constitution as I recall.  But they're thematically hardy little twerps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 10:57:37 pm

Quote from: Amperzand on January 29, 2016, 10:51:45 pm

Which basically means you can have a PHD in smashing people piecemeal with the sides of a sword, but still not realize you can  stab things with it?

Just like in Dwarf Fortress...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 29, 2016, 11:08:00 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 29, 2016, 10:42:11 pm

Larger creatures are naturally stronger, thus they tend to hit harder in general.  A critical is a strike in a specifically vulnerable place.

I've always thought it was super weird that you need a special feat to use dexterity on light weapon attack rolls.  Like not only is everyone clubbing each other with their swords (purely using STR and feats to determine damage, dexterity not a factor) but being dextrous doesn't even make them more accurate.  Being *strong* makes you more accurate.  Even with a pair of daggers, or a rapier, unless you take a special feat.

I do kinda get it for non-light weapons, since redirecting a heavy sword swing isn't like picking a lock.  And maybe...  Oh, okay, 5th edition did fix this pretty much.
(Though you can still brute-force a finesse weapon, which is amusing.  Basically punching people while holding something sharp)

That's one of the things that 5e fixed, you don't have to pay a feat tax to finesse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 11:14:59 pm

Continuing with cheap magic items

20.) Set of Healing Crystals: These crystals, when stood up in a circle/ellipse around a resting character, allow the character a 75% chance to regain 1 additional hit point per 8 hour rest period or to definitely regain 2 additional hit points per full day rest period, and have a 50% chance on any given day where at least 8 hours are spent under their effect to grant a +1 resistance bonus to either the character's save against a disease afflicting them (but only one if they have more than one disease) or, at their discretion, a healer's check to treat a disease afflicting them (but only one if they have more than one disease)

(CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, resistance or cure minor wounds or necrosurgery OR Craft Universal Item, vigor; Price 500 gp {of which ~200-460 of which is simply the cost of the crystals themselves and doesn't contribute to xp cost or creation time})

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on January 30, 2016, 01:20:12 am

21) Twine of Escaping: A ball of about 200 feet of rough hemp twine, barely able to support the weight of the user. If a loop of it is thrown towards a hook, ledge, crag, or other such small point around which it could be tied, it will tie itself to that point, making for a temporary climbing rope, tight-rope, or swinging rope; it will not untie itself under any circumstance, and expended lengths will have to be cut away if any of the rope is to be retrieved. When used in a climbing, jumping, or similar activity during a retreat or escape, it confers a +2 enhancement bonus to the user's Climb, Jump, or Balance skill as appropriate, and Use Rope checks gain a +5 enhancement bonus. Under any other circumstance it functions as basic rope with a maximum weight capacity of 160 Lbs; should any more weight be put upon it, the twine will break. While not being used in an effort to escape or retreat, it gives only a +2 bonus to Use Rope and no bonus to any other skill.

(CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, Animate Rope and one of Jump, Feather Fall, Levitate, or Spider Climb; 800 GP (50 GP of which is material components))

((Calculations: ~50 charges, if 4 feet are cut away with each use, LESS if the entire twine has to be abandoned as the case likely will be. For Animate Rope (1st level)xCaster Level (3)x750 GP that puts us at 2250 GP; but we'll fudge it to be half-way between the 50 charge and single use prices (so average 750 and 50, for 400). That puts us at 1200 GP. Add the price of the +2 bonus to Climb, Jump, Balance... +400 GP, fudge it to say it's similar to the previous effect to reduce the price of this second ability to 75%, so +300, for 1500 GP. Reduce by 10% because it requires Use Rope, and 10% again because it requires Climb, Jump, or Balance. And let's cut the price by 30% because it only works when retreating or escaping. Stack those together, it's a 50% reduction. 750 GP. Tack on a bit extra to pay for the twine it's made out of, 800 GP))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 30, 2016, 12:02:16 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 29, 2016, 10:42:11 pm

I do kinda get it for non-light weapons, since redirecting a heavy sword swing isn't like picking a lock.  And maybe...  Oh, okay, 5th edition did fix this pretty much.
(Though you can still brute-force a finesse weapon, which is amusing.  Basically punching people while holding something sharp)

I think the issue arises from a distinction not being properly drwan between a weapon contacting and a weapon getting past the protection of armor

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on January 30, 2016, 12:14:28 pm

Oh yeah... derp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 30, 2016, 12:24:52 pm

More of a derp on the Gygax and Arneson's part

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 30, 2016, 01:03:58 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 20, 2016, 06:00:36 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 05:09:34 pm

To speak more seriously, new editions seem to be coming out more frequently and I think it's a cash grab. Plus the BS with 4e put me off of WoTC forever. 5e may very well be better than 4e, but then Castro was better than Stalin. It won't last anyway even if it is good; WoTC is a subsidiary of Hasboro and whenever Hasboro makes anything good they always do something later to ruin it.

I respect where you're coming from, but it's important to remember the context of 5e in its relationship to 4e. 4e was panned. Across the board. This, we can all agree on. It was a Hasbro cash grab. Then, they realized that people weren't interested in a tactical boardgame labeled D&D. So, 5e was the apology game. They reached out to players, and said, 'hey, what do you want D&D to be like?'

A lot of those people were likely primarily familiar with 4e, making their perspective inherently tainted

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 30, 2016, 01:13:02 pm

I'd like to respond, but NullForceOmega admonished me the last time I got into an edition fight, and I'm not interested in a warning from the Toad. PMs?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 30, 2016, 01:27:06 pm

I suppose I'll just drop it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 12:53:15 am

22.) Gripping Gloves: These gloves provide a +1 resistance bonus to avoid being disarmed (faint transmutation; CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, stick or resinous tar or mage hand; Price <100 gp)

23.) Semi-Wand: A wand that duplicates one, and only one, of the effects of the prestidigitation spell one time per charge. One such wand could clean items in a 1 foot cube with each charge, and another could flavor one pound of food per charge, and yet another one could conjure one cheap flimsy replica (that disappears after an hour) per charge, and still another could create little puffs of wind once per charge, and another could conjure faint low-quality sound; etc. None could do more than one of these things however. (faint aura varies by effect; CL 3; Craft Wand or Craft Rod Or Craft Wondrous Item, prestidigitation; Price ~19sp-37 gp [each can produce only about one tenth of the possible effects of prestidigitation, and can only invoke it a tiny fraction of the number of times])

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 31, 2016, 05:49:59 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 12:53:15 am

22.) Gripping Gloves: These gloves provide a +1 resistance bonus to avoid being disarmed (faint transmutation; CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, stick or resinous tar or mage hand; Price <100 gp)

23.) Semi-Wand: A wand that duplicates one, and only one, of the effects of the prestidigitation spell one time per charge. One such wand could clean items in a 1 foot cube with each charge, and another could flavor one pound of food per charge, and yet another one could conjure one cheap flimsy replica (that disappears after an hour) per charge, and still another could create little puffs of wind once per charge, and another could conjure faint low-quality sound; etc. None could do more than one of these things however. (faint aura varies by effect; CL 3; Craft Wand or Craft Rod Or Craft Wondrous Item, prestidigitation; Price ~19sp-37 gp [each can produce only about one tenth of the possible effects of prestidigitation, and can only invoke it a tiny fraction of the number of times])

Locked gauntlets cost 8gp and provide +10 to being disarmed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 31, 2016, 09:25:03 am

Wouldn't be the first time a pair of items with misaligned costs and benefits became a noob trap. Yeah, Glove of Storing and Glove of the Master Strategist, I'm looking at you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 31, 2016, 10:18:18 am

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 31, 2016, 09:25:03 am

Wouldn't be the first time a pair of items with misaligned costs and benefits became a noob trap. Yeah, Glove of Storing and Glove of the Master Strategist, I'm looking at you.

Which is odd because there are already gloves that are entirely mundane that make it nearly impossible to get disarmed. (And a TERRIBLE magic version that costs a ton for something that the game already does.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 31, 2016, 10:32:41 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 31, 2016, 10:18:18 am

Which is odd because there are already gloves that are entirely mundane that make it nearly impossible to get disarmed. (And a TERRIBLE magic version that costs a ton for something that the game already does.)

Yeah, that's already been pointed out - the locked gauntlets that provide a +10 vs disarming.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 31, 2016, 10:33:27 am

TBF the magic glove doesn't chain your hand together, so you could drop whatever's in your hand for something else when you needed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 31, 2016, 10:35:39 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 31, 2016, 10:33:27 am

TBF the magic glove doesn't chain your hand together, so you could drop whatever's in your hand for something else when you needed.

Use your other hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 31, 2016, 10:43:20 am

But what if your character is a hook-handed pirate who needs a wank right now?  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on January 31, 2016, 10:45:42 am

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 31, 2016, 10:43:20 am

But what if your character is a hook-handed pirate who needs a wank right now?  :P

And the locked gauntlet isn't preferred because? : 3

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 31, 2016, 12:27:18 pm

Actually, it makes you wonder. If the locked gauntlet is so cheap and easy to make, why does anyone at all in most D&D settings have sub-par replacement hands/arms? Seems like they could make pretty good prostheses purely with smithcraft and mechanics, never mind magical stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 12:31:56 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 31, 2016, 10:18:18 am

(And a TERRIBLE magic version that costs a ton for something that the game already does.)

You missed the "less than" sign. Meaning I've no idea what this would cost, all I know is it would definitely be Less Than 100 gp

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 31, 2016, 12:42:35 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on January 31, 2016, 12:27:18 pm

Actually, it makes you wonder. If the locked gauntlet is so cheap and easy to make, why does anyone at all in most D&D settings have sub-par replacement hands/arms? Seems like they could make pretty good prostheses purely with smithcraft and mechanics, never mind magical stuff.

Well, a gauntlet still needs a hand in it.

Mainly, I imagine it's difficult to afford for the common man. The pay for a menial worker is given at 1sp a day.
So 80 days of labour to earn the price of a locked gauntlet. Of course, that's not discounting food costs, or rent. A loaf of bread is 2cp, so that alone is a fifth of their wages. Or including any more costs for adapting it to use for a stump, since it was designed for whole arms.

If they're in a village, they may not have access to a blacksmith who can make it, since they'd have little experience making things beyond nails and horseshoes. Adventurers have plenty of gold, yes, but they're the exception rather than the rule. When you're very poor, it's difficult to stop being very poor, since you can't afford to improve your situation. If a miner loses his hand, he won't have many savings, and he won't have any more pay coming in to afford a fancy new hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 12:52:44 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 12:53:15 am

22.) Gripping Gloves: These gloves provide a +1 resistance bonus to avoid being disarmed (faint transmutation; CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, stick or resinous tar or mage hand; Price <100 gp)

Ok, revised version


22.) Gripping Gloves: These gloves provide a +1 resistance bonus to avoid being disarmed and to any fortitude or reflex save to avoid dropping an item and have a 50% chance to add +1 to any climb check involving the user's hands (faint transmutation; CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, stick or resinous tar or mage hand or spider climb; Price = cost of substrate gauntlet + 8 gp )

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 31, 2016, 01:24:37 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 12:52:44 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 12:53:15 am

22.) Gripping Gloves: These gloves provide a +1 resistance bonus to avoid being disarmed (faint transmutation; CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, stick or resinous tar or mage hand; Price <100 gp)

Ok, revised version


22.) Gripping Gloves: These gloves provide a +1 resistance bonus to avoid being disarmed and to any fortitude or reflex save to avoid dropping an item and have a 50% chance to add +1 to any climb check involving the user's hands (faint transmutation; CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, stick or resinous tar or mage hand or spider climb; Price = cost of substrate gauntlet + 8 gp )

I'd just say they add +1 to climb checks, rather than making it a 50% chance. That seems a little odd. It's not a huge bonus by any means.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 31, 2016, 01:31:26 pm

For the price it's not bad. Standard masterwork item gives +2 bonus for 50 gold, so, +.5 for eight gold is pretty good on top of the minor disarm thing, also it's apparently an untyped bonus, so, double bonus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on January 31, 2016, 02:06:56 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 31, 2016, 01:31:26 pm

For the price it's not bad. Standard masterwork item gives +2 bonus for 50 gold, so, +.5 for eight gold is pretty good on top of the minor disarm thing, also it's apparently an untyped bonus, so, double bonus.

Yeah, I couldn't figure out what kind of bonus to make it, so I made it a very very small untyped bonus

EDIT:
It was down to either Enhancement or Equipment, which seemed to fit best, or else Resistance to remain consistent witn the other effect of the gloves

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on February 01, 2016, 04:32:04 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on January 20, 2016, 12:05:38 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 20, 2016, 07:15:30 am

So I was creating a TON of Living spells

I kind of hit a snag as I realized they actually increased in damage WAY WAY faster then they increased in HP (I might redo them and give them a update... maybe Con = 10 + Circlex2)

---

Also what are you doing 5e?

You have ONE Monster Manual... you have four adventure paths soon to be 5 (Might have miscounted) and they are ALL for levels up to 10. Of those only ONE had substantial monsters of their own.

You actually have more hypothetical stat blocks for creatures you don't even fight in the adventure path (sort of) which is awesome if you got to level 20... ohh wait :P

Seriously 5e two things
1) Higher level adventure paths
2) MAGIC ITEMS DANG IT!!!
3) Monster Manual 2

As Immaterial said they want everyone to play the adventures they tell them to and no one to make up their own stuff

Any additional material hurts this cause

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 20, 2016, 12:01:03 pm

Quote from: Ghills on January 20, 2016, 11:24:01 am

Just started running a D&D 5e game.  All new players...except for one experienced player who decided to play a Chaotic Neutral barbarian.  ::) 

is this bad?

He said it's a 5e game, so yeah.

5e is a lot of fun, actually.  It's better than 4 (not hard) and the current version of 3.5, which is incredibly complex and full of niche cheese builds.

Having the only experienced player be a CN barbarian makes it really hard to keep them from taking over the table.   It's an archetype that lends itself to whatever the player wants to do, whenever they want to do it, and they're using that to run roughshod over all the other players whenever they get mildly bored or don't like the party decisions.   

So far:
1) Charged into the enemy while party was planning an ambush
2) Stole stuff from another party member ETA: This may have been taunting another player until they threw the item at the barbarian to shut them up? Either way: no-good childishness
3) Deliberately drew enemy attention while party was scouting
4) Initiated combat against a party member
5) Talked over fellow players so much that I used a fumble to remove the character from the action so other players could actually roleplay

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 01, 2016, 04:34:00 pm

Oh wow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 01, 2016, 04:37:21 pm

Yeah... seriously, fuck That Guy.
Chaotic Neutral *can* be played interestingly of course, and even Chaotic Evil doesn't *necessarily* break the party.  Every bard is chaotic, and most bards are supportive team players by nature.  But people so often use it as an excuse.  To be fair That Guy is also likely to be a LG paladin.

Paladins of slaughter are a great NPC concept but if a player tries to roll one... pffff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on February 01, 2016, 05:07:38 pm

The worst part! The LG paladin thinks the CN barbarian is funny.  Aaarrrrgh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 01, 2016, 05:08:34 pm

Oh Armok why.


...I guess that actually answers my question.

Must be a paladin of Armok.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 01, 2016, 05:10:18 pm

or a paladin of not knowing a bad character

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on February 01, 2016, 05:12:03 pm

Well, assuming he has the Paladin Selective Perception Field (mandatory for any paladin working with typical adventurers) turned up high enough to filter out the barbarian's transgressions, what little filters through might seem like high comedy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on February 01, 2016, 05:14:50 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on February 01, 2016, 05:12:03 pm

Well, assuming he has the Paladin Selective Perception Field (mandatory for any paladin working with typical adventurers) turned up high enough to filter out the barbarian's transgressions, what little filters through might seem like high comedy.

She's simply a brand new player who's too excited to have found a non-skeevy gaming group to question things too much (context: only the CN barbarian is male, every one else is female).

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 01, 2016, 05:10:18 pm

or a paladin of not knowing a bad character

I think it's this, basically.  Every one besides the CN barbarian is brand new, so they aren't recognizing what's going on or how to deal with it. 

We'll just have to see how it goes.  I just wish we were playing RuneQuest. It's a lot harder to play CN in that system because the combat system is a lot less forgiving of stupidity, randomness and suicidal charges.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 01, 2016, 05:17:46 pm

Okay, that actually makes a lot of sense.  Even if she wasn't new.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 02, 2016, 03:27:37 am

Ok, here's something I've been thinkong about. I think that it would make sense for populations of the longer-lived races to be heavily skewed toward the more highly trained NPC classes - ie. Adept, Expert, and Magewright - and to have very few commoners. They have, after all, more time to learn trades than many humans live, if after all that time they're just turning out commoners that just makes them seem stupid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 04:04:40 am

Quote from: Bohandas on February 02, 2016, 03:27:37 am

Ok, here's something I've been thinkong about. I think that it would make sense for populations of the longer-lived races to be heavily skewed toward the more highly trained NPC classes - ie. Adept, Expert, and Magewright - and to have very few commoners. They have, after all, more time to learn trades than many humans live, if after all that time they're just turning out commoners that just makes them seem stupid.

It is something that SOME of the games tried to make a focus and others tried to gloss over.

Some went as far as to say that a Elf with any sort of longevity would have class levels and even if they were a crafter they likely knew magic to enhance it further.

While others kind of sidestep the issue for many reasons. The usual excuse being that the shorter lived species are more ambitious when it comes to practicing their skills and improving upon themselves, while the long lived ones have a much more relaxed attitude towards it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 02, 2016, 05:12:49 am

I like to imagine that longer lived races have a subjectively longer maturation cycle. Elves, being the classic example, would still be considered children even if they're 30 years old. Adventurers of these races, who typically gain levels far faster than NPCs, would likely be doing so as a result of rubbing shoulders with other races that develop and mature so much faster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 05:27:19 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 02, 2016, 05:12:49 am

I like to imagine that longer lived races have a subjectively longer maturation cycle. Elves, being the classic example, would still be considered children even if they're 30 years old. Adventurers of these races, who typically gain levels far faster than NPCs, would likely be doing so as a result of rubbing shoulders with other races that develop and mature so much faster.

Surprisingly... it is the opposite.

Elves get a stick up their butt earlier in their lives and Half-elves are usually considered the immature ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 02, 2016, 05:35:18 am

Sure about that? Elves have a listed age for adulthood at 110 years, whereas half-elves are a mere 20 years, at least according to the 3.5e SRD. As for in character maturity, that essentially depends on the player. You might have a character sheet that lists intelligence in the high thirties, but if the player doesn't roleplay that, it's pretty meaningless.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 05:37:03 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 02, 2016, 05:35:18 am

Sure about that? Elves have a listed age for adulthood at 110 years, whereas half-elves are a mere 20 years, at least according to the 3.5e SRD. As for in character maturity, that essentially depends on the player. You might have a character sheet that lists intelligence in the high thirties, but if the player doesn't roleplay that, it's pretty meaningless.

I am going to admit I might have it backwards. I might be confusing how Elves "Mature" quickly in terms of emotional maturity but not physically.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 02, 2016, 05:38:27 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 02, 2016, 05:35:18 am

Sure about that? Elves have a listed age for adulthood at 110 years, whereas half-elves are a mere 20 years, at least according to the 3.5e SRD. As for in character maturity, that essentially depends on the player. You might have a character sheet that lists intelligence in the high thirties, but if the player doesn't roleplay that, it's pretty meaningless.

Well, having intelligence in the high thirties is no obstacle to having a wisdom of 8.

As for elves, don't the background materials go into the idea that elves have a natural curiosity and wanderlust to them? It might be less that they're lacking in ambition and more that they don't tend to focus on things enough to get really good at something quickly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 05:39:34 am

I think that is Halflings.... or Gnomes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 02, 2016, 05:41:14 am

I think I read that about elves. Might have been in the 5e PHB?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 02, 2016, 05:42:49 am

Now I just want to play an elf that spent the last century living in his mom's basement and finally got kicked out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on February 02, 2016, 10:03:34 am

Quote from: Bohandas on February 02, 2016, 03:27:37 am

Ok, here's something I've been thinkong about. I think that it would make sense for populations of the longer-lived races to be heavily skewed toward the more highly trained NPC classes - ie. Adept, Expert, and Magewright - and to have very few commoners. They have, after all, more time to learn trades than many humans live, if after all that time they're just turning out commoners that just makes them seem stupid.

Not really.

D&D lumps basically everything real people do for a living into 'commoner'.  You could be the world's best plumber, potter or civil engineer, with people traveling from far-off countries to consult you. But the DM is going to class you as 'commoner' because your profession isn't useful to adventurers and you aren't a story-important NPC that needs to survive dealing with PCs.

I would think that longer-lived races would spend time perfecting their profession and hobbies - which may or may not include a 'class' as D&D recognizes them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 02, 2016, 11:30:06 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 02, 2016, 05:42:49 am

Now I just want to play an elf that spent the last century living in his mom's basement and finally got kicked out.

My first real character was a level 1 druid elf who was 300-ish years old, IE in the third age category (elves start rolling to die at 350, venerable).

His backstory was that he was an ambassador to the fey who lived on the island, and basically spent that entire time reading them stories and having practical jokes played on him.  For ~200 years.  The Everfree Forest (the island) was very isolated from the troubles of the world.  The three lich-emperors didn't even know it existed...  Until Adil went on a diplomatic mission to the last human city, at the start of the campaign.

He did have a son about halfway through, who was a very different story.  Probably my "Most broken character whose backstory tries to justify it", though he wasn't *that* broken.  Just a neutral cleric...  Meaning he could spontaneously cast any of the sanctified spells from Book of Exalted Deeds, but also prepare vile spells from Book of Vile Darkness.  Honestly he barely took advantage of that.  Being a satyr was pretty sweet, though, and he did use the pipes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 02, 2016, 12:27:34 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on February 02, 2016, 05:38:27 am

As for elves, don't the background materials go into the idea that elves have a natural curiosity and wanderlust to them? It might be less that they're lacking in ambition and more that they don't tend to focus on things enough to get really good at something quickly.

But this isn't about extra levels, it's about he same low levels in better classes; it's about getting good at something over a period of about 100 years

EDIT:
Plus the dwarves are all about focus and live nearly as long as the elves do

And they're both seen as mystical magical races. Skewing the demographics towards adepts and magewrights would help to reflect this in-game without giving them all PC classes or a bunch of extra levels

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 02, 2016, 07:32:50 pm

Quote from: Ghills on February 02, 2016, 10:03:34 am

Quote from: Bohandas on February 02, 2016, 03:27:37 am

Ok, here's something I've been thinkong about. I think that it would make sense for populations of the longer-lived races to be heavily skewed toward the more highly trained NPC classes - ie. Adept, Expert, and Magewright - and to have very few commoners. They have, after all, more time to learn trades than many humans live, if after all that time they're just turning out commoners that just makes them seem stupid.

Not really.

D&D lumps basically everything real people do for a living into 'commoner'.  You could be the world's best plumber, potter or civil engineer, with people traveling from far-off countries to consult you. But the DM is going to class you as 'commoner' because your profession isn't useful to adventurers and you aren't a story-important NPC that needs to survive dealing with PCs.

I would think that longer-lived races would spend time perfecting their profession and hobbies - which may or may not include a 'class' as D&D recognizes them.

I think that would fall under the umbrella of the Expert class. (As well as Savant and Factotum for those with PC classes)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 02, 2016, 07:42:49 pm

Experts are people like sailors, craftsmen, apothecaries, and so on.

Commoners are farmers, herders, and such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 09:35:34 pm

Sailors, craftsmen, apothecaries, and so on... are easily commoners. Likewise a farmer and herder could easily be an expert.

The difference between a Expert and a Commoner is the difference between Healer and a Doctor.

It isn't so much their jobs it is how far they are and willing to take them.

Or another way of putting it is the difference is the same as between the Warrior and Fighter. A Warrior is a fighter who lacks the discipline and drive, or rather where fighting is just a hobby.

----

Whelp just two more days until the deadline for the sheet hand in and I am nervous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 02, 2016, 09:45:07 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 09:35:34 pm

Whelp just two more days until the deadline for the sheet hand in and I am nervous.

URGH FINE ILL FINISH IT TONIGHT






:P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 02, 2016, 09:45:46 pm

i had mine pretty well done and then my laptop SHUT OFF with nothing saved

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 02, 2016, 10:10:18 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 02, 2016, 09:45:07 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 09:35:34 pm

Whelp just two more days until the deadline for the sheet hand in and I am nervous.

URGH FINE ILL FINISH IT TOMORROW

AAAAAA ESSAYS AAAAA
Bumpeth thine thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 02:13:54 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 12:17:09 am

We'll come up with 101 ideas for cheap magic items!

24.) Continuous Canteen: As long as at least one drop of water remains inside of it this one quart canteen gradually refills itself over the course of three hours (faint conjuration; CL 1; Craft Wondrous Item, create water; Price ~120-380 gp?? [approx equiv to create water one charge per day, which would be 360 gp, but actually creates a somewhat less water unless nearly drained every 3 hours, plus there's the restriction that there must already be at least one drop in it])

Edit:
Strike that pricing information. I forgot to multiply by one half for a level 0 spell.
it should be "~60-190 gp?? [approx equiv to create water one charge per day, which would be 180 gp, but actually creates a somewhat less water unless nearly drained every 3 hours, plus there's the restriction that there must already be at least one drop in it]"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 02:27:54 am

Quote from: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 09:35:34 pm

Sailors, craftsmen, apothecaries, and so on... are easily commoners. Likewise a farmer and herder could easily be an expert.

The difference between a Expert and a Commoner is the difference between Healer and a Doctor.

It isn't so much their jobs it is how far they are and willing to take them.

Or another way of putting it is the difference is the same as between the Warrior and Fighter. A Warrior is a fighter who lacks the discipline and drive, or rather where fighting is just a hobby.

It's about how trained and talented they are. A warrior's a fighter who isn't particularly skilled at his job.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 03, 2016, 02:41:44 am

Well "Trained and Talented" could easily be based upon level as well.

But the difference is that a fighter will wake up and do 1000 sword reps, but a Warrior won't.

Which is more the quality of their training and talent then amount.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: sprinkled chariot on February 03, 2016, 03:34:40 am

Are there any dnd versions, where players are mix of ,, bad guys ,, like liches, demons or that kind of stuff and try to ruin the world for everyone / some shrine with healing fountain / nuke paladin order headquarters ?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on February 03, 2016, 03:44:15 am

That would basically just be a different campaign. If you know a DM to talk to, you could see if they want to run an evil-party camp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 03, 2016, 05:06:35 am

If you're into Pathfinder and want an evil campaign arc, you could do worse than Way of the Wicked (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tmp?Way-of-the-Wicked-Book-1-Knot-of-Thorns). It starts right from level 1, and pretty much lets you run wild with an evil character party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on February 03, 2016, 06:19:54 am

Quote from: Neonivek on February 03, 2016, 02:41:44 am

Well "Trained and Talented" could easily be based upon level as well.

But the difference is that a fighter will wake up and do 1000 sword reps, but a Warrior won't.

Which is more the quality of their training and talent then amount.

Quote from: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 02:27:54 am

Quote from: Neonivek on February 02, 2016, 09:35:34 pm

Sailors, craftsmen, apothecaries, and so on... are easily commoners. Likewise a farmer and herder could easily be an expert.

The difference between a Expert and a Commoner is the difference between Healer and a Doctor.

It isn't so much their jobs it is how far they are and willing to take them.

Or another way of putting it is the difference is the same as between the Warrior and Fighter. A Warrior is a fighter who lacks the discipline and drive, or rather where fighting is just a hobby.

It's about how trained and talented they are. A warrior's a fighter who isn't particularly skilled at his job.

I think the difference is rather that one is an adventurer, and the other stays home.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 03, 2016, 10:49:11 am

Quote from: sprinkled chariot on February 03, 2016, 03:34:40 am

Are there any dnd versions, where players are mix of ,, bad guys ,, like liches, demons or that kind of stuff and try to ruin the world for everyone / some shrine with healing fountain / nuke paladin order headquarters ?

We accomplished most of that in our campaign, though it didn't start that way.  At one point my character was a demon, one of the first characters was a mummy, three of the later ones were ogres...  We were still sorta trying to fix the world, for the most part, but along the way we did slaughter a Church of St Cuthbert (they were being dicks, and we got paid!), mainly worked for an ancient vampire (in our defense, he was mounting a coup!) and eventually helped one of the lich emperors ascend to godhood (My character had 3 int at that point, there wasn't much I could do.  I think we justified it as "he agreed to help stop the others, and gods tend to chillax in their realms".  That event did kinda break the world even more than before though.)

We never did nuke the paladin headquarters...  That *happened*, but only because we stepped out for a bit.  We actually did our best to help them.
(well, arguably we weakened the city by slaughtering the church of Cuthbert...  For the cultists who then performed the nuking)

We were very briefly heroes, then antiheroes who played by our own rules to fix the world, then basically devolved into evil and spite there at the end.  Until it eventually fell apart.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 11:05:50 am

Quote from: sprinkled chariot on February 03, 2016, 03:34:40 am

Are there any dnd versions, where players are mix of ,, bad guys ,, like liches, demons or that kind of stuff and try to ruin the world for everyone / some shrine with healing fountain / nuke paladin order headquarters ?

Reverse Dungeon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on February 03, 2016, 05:33:46 pm

OK, thanks to that article someone linked about changing classes into feats, I've started compiling a list of all the classes and the feats they get turned into.

I've decided only the Core Classes get Basic Training feats, with maybe the exception of some of the Occult Classes IF the need arises.

Here is the link, and the document should be open for comments and suggesting edits. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BY3g-klMvdISnwjMMT_3j9-t5wB61-O-xY7D66wob4w/edit?usp=sharing) For security reasons, I'm not giving full edit access here. :P

You'll notice it's mostly blank; feel free to suggest edits to fill it out, or to request that certain classes be done next. The table-of-contents is almost complete, though. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 03, 2016, 05:34:46 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 11:05:50 am

Quote from: sprinkled chariot on February 03, 2016, 03:34:40 am

Are there any dnd versions, where players are mix of ,, bad guys ,, like liches, demons or that kind of stuff and try to ruin the world for everyone / some shrine with healing fountain / nuke paladin order headquarters ?

Reverse Dungeon

all evil / chaotic neutral party, only non-good races

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 03, 2016, 06:10:42 pm

Quote

This increase is always active, even while the barbarian is raging.

Ah, good. I always worry that my Rage Powers may not work when I use RAGE.

It seems to have since been errata'd, but that doesn't mean that old books or .pdfs reflect that.

Just moving this to a more appropriate thread. Anyone else ever come across wordings that don't make sense or accidentally subvert the intentions of an ability?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 03, 2016, 06:57:25 pm

@Flabort:
    Wow, I'm glad I gave that to you! That list is awesome. I might run it through LaTeX and .pdf it once it's done so it's nice and portable, and so the hyperlinks actually work :P

Man, I want to convert the DFA over to Pathfinder but I don't know where to start. I remember seeing a guide on how to convert classes somewhere though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on February 03, 2016, 07:45:47 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on February 03, 2016, 06:57:25 pm

@Flabort:
    Wow, I'm glad I gave that to you! That list is awesome. I might run it through LaTeX and .pdf it once it's done so it's nice and portable, and so the hyperlinks actually work :P

Man, I want to convert the DFA over to Pathfinder but I don't know where to start. I remember seeing a guide on how to convert classes somewhere though?

Don't think I'll be able to finish it without some help, though. :P Especially with my other project right now, and my life too.

As for hyperlinks, try clicking them in View Mode. I think the default is Suggest Mode.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 09:52:39 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 28, 2016, 07:29:27 am

Coins can be broken down into fractionals, or even just melted down for the gold. Everyone uses gold. Kings, peasants, wizards. Gold is a currency that anyone can use.

You've got it backwards. Gold is a currency that no one can use. Not in that sense at any rate. Only spellcasters can make direct practical use of scrolls, true, but nobody can directly make practical use of gold; they can only trade it for things that are useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 03, 2016, 10:05:41 pm

I disagree. Gold Pieces are the universal magical currency. The Identify spell cannot be cast unless you have pearls worth exactly 100 pieces of gold.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 03, 2016, 10:09:28 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 09:52:39 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 28, 2016, 07:29:27 am

Coins can be broken down into fractionals, or even just melted down for the gold. Everyone uses gold. Kings, peasants, wizards. Gold is a currency that anyone can use.

You've got it backwards. Gold is a currency that no one can use. Not in that sense at any rate. Only spellcasters can make direct practical use of scrolls, true, but nobody can directly make practical use of gold; they can only trade it for things that are useful.

...no, I haven't?

I'm not talking about using the gold as a material. I'm talking about using it as a currency, because that's what we were talking about.
And gold is used in at least one process to do with magic, so I'd argue that gives it a practical use, but that's beside the point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 03, 2016, 10:10:15 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 03, 2016, 10:05:41 pm

I disagree. Gold Pieces are the universal magical currency. The Identify spell cannot be cast unless you have pearls worth exactly 100 pieces of gold.

Or if it's 3rd ed, large lump sums are needed to create magic items.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 03, 2016, 10:11:45 pm

1 pound of gold dust is a material component of the Wall of Iron spell. Half a pound of gold dust is a material component of the Fire Trap spell. Direct use of gold without requiring an intermediate purchase confirmed!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 03, 2016, 10:12:56 pm

I think you also require gold dust to scribe new spells into your spellbook as a wizard?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 03, 2016, 10:16:55 pm

3.5e gives the vague "Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page." Could be expensive ink or special quills rather than gold.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 03, 2016, 10:18:49 pm

Cool. I'm gonna go write my spells in glow-in-the-dark ink!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 03, 2016, 10:27:00 pm

Spoiler: Relevant (click to show/hide)

(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0306.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 10:30:05 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 03, 2016, 10:10:15 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 03, 2016, 10:05:41 pm

I disagree. Gold Pieces are the universal magical currency. The Identify spell cannot be cast unless you have pearls worth exactly 100 pieces of gold.

Or if it's 3rd ed, large lump sums are needed to create magic items.

That's to buy equipment. The items aren't made through some kind of reverse-alchemy.

And in any case even if it was it's still something that's only useful to spellcasters

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 03, 2016, 10:34:38 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 03, 2016, 10:05:41 pm

I disagree. Gold Pieces are the universal magical currency. The Identify spell cannot be cast unless you have pearls worth exactly 100 pieces of gold.

So make sure you step across those borders to non pearl producing nations before going though your loot kids.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 03, 2016, 10:43:05 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 10:30:05 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 03, 2016, 10:10:15 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 03, 2016, 10:05:41 pm

I disagree. Gold Pieces are the universal magical currency. The Identify spell cannot be cast unless you have pearls worth exactly 100 pieces of gold.

Or if it's 3rd ed, large lump sums are needed to create magic items.

That's to buy equipment. The items aren't made through some kind of reverse-alchemy.

And in any case even if it was it's still something that's only useful to spellcasters

It's DND 3.5 though.  Only spellcasters do useful things :P

In my group it was reverse-alchemy, but we were mostly deep in wasteland, wilderness, or hostile undead cities.  I think we had like 3 time-skip downtimes in 2 years and 4 sets of characters...  Otherwise we were traveling (or teleporting).

Of course, using up gold like that does raise questions...  But our setting was essentially post-apocalyptic, so we were essentially scavenging the magical unperishable metal of the ancient ones to power our crafts and spells.  Gold and platinum may as well been orichalcum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 03, 2016, 10:45:41 pm

Given that the Wall of Iron spell permanently creates materials suitable for manufacturing equipment, weapons or armor, I'd say it would be a fairly logical conclusion that a 50 gp investment of gold dust does in fact create a reverse-alchemy effect, especially when combined with the Fabricate spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 10:51:45 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on February 03, 2016, 10:09:28 pm

Quote from: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 09:52:39 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 28, 2016, 07:29:27 am

Coins can be broken down into fractionals, or even just melted down for the gold. Everyone uses gold. Kings, peasants, wizards. Gold is a currency that anyone can use.

You've got it backwards. Gold is a currency that no one can use. Not in that sense at any rate. Only spellcasters can make direct practical use of scrolls, true, but nobody can directly make practical use of gold; they can only trade it for things that are useful.

...no, I haven't?

I'm not talking about using the gold as a material. I'm talking about using it as a currency, because that's what we were talking about.
And gold is used in at least one process to do with magic, so I'd argue that gives it a practical use, but that's beside the point.

No, you're talking about both in an attempt to strawman me. You said that scrolls are only useful* to spellcasters because only spellcasters can make direct practical use of them but that gold is useful to everyone** because anyone can use it as a currency. At no point is the practicability of using scrolls as currency (which was the ostensible topic of the conversation) touched upon.

*here talking about practical use
**here talking about use as a currency, but pretending to still be talking about the same thing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 03, 2016, 11:42:33 pm

It's a property of intrinsic vs. extrinsic value. A scroll has intrinsic value in that it can create an effect for an appropriate spellcaster. It has an inherent value defined by the cost of creation too, which is a static amount.

Gold is, by and large, valuable only for what it can be traded for. Thus, its value is extrinsic, excepting a few specific spells using it as a material component.

In a real world situation, you'd run into issues of inflation, economy of scale, etc. However in the game setting that's not a feature of the core rules. After all, even if your character's background has them as the scion of a noble house, a princess or the damned king of the country, if you're level 1 you still have a set Wealth by Level.

Thus, it doesn't matter whether or not it would be more logical for your fictional fantasy setting to use scrolls as de facto promissory notes. The rules say the standard currency is a piece of gold, so that's how you play it unless you're using house rules to make it slips of paper, colored rocks or toenail clippings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 03, 2016, 11:58:44 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 03, 2016, 11:42:33 pm

It's a property of intrinsic vs. extrinsic value. A scroll has intrinsic value in that it can create an effect for an appropriate spellcaster. It has an inherent value defined by the cost of creation too, which is a static amount.

Gold is, by and large, valuable only for what it can be traded for. Thus, its value is extrinsic, excepting a few specific spells using it as a material component.

In a real world situation, you'd run into issues of inflation, economy of scale, etc. However in the game setting that's not a feature of the core rules. After all, even if your character's background has them as the scion of a noble house, a princess or the damned king of the country, if you're level 1 you still have a set Wealth by Level.

Thus, it doesn't matter whether or not it would be more logical for your fictional fantasy setting to use scrolls as de facto promissory notes. The rules say the standard currency is a piece of gold, so that's how you play it unless you're using house rules to make it slips of paper, colored rocks or toenail clippings.

IOUs for spellcasting are a canon currency though (in the Epic Level Handbok). Which is why it seems to me that it would be sensible to simply use magic scrolls directly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 04, 2016, 12:17:24 am

The thing about Favors, the specific entry you're referencing, is that they can be used to pay for any spellcasting, whereas a scroll can only be used for a specific spell. To be fair; you could pay for things with a scroll, but the cost of making a scroll (50% of the cost! That quickly adds up to thousands of GP at higher levels.) far outways the benefit of having a scroll as currency. Imagine if a dollar cost 50 cents to make! The government would probably print dollars in larger denominations instead, so they get more bang for their buck, as it were.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 04, 2016, 12:20:57 am

An epic level character typically deals with values above and beyond normal limits. When you spend your day walking around in gear with a net value roughly equivalent to the entire combined wealth of a large city, you mostly trade in favors and rare items rather than gold. It's mainly a way of reducing the bookkeeping for playing an epic character when trying to haul that much wealth in physical form would be a logistical nightmare. I doubt it's meant to be extrapolated down to everyday common trade. After all, the rules also have prices for using goats as an alternative currency too, but I doubt anyone would seriously consider using this as the standard coin of the realm. It's more an exception that may come up in specific circumstances.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 04, 2016, 12:21:12 am

Pennies cost more than a penny to make, but pennies still exist.

Not in Canada, though.

Also, remember that adventurers are unusually rich compared to in-game economies. Even in the largest cities, you still technically have to roll to see if they got what you want.

Trading scrolls wouldn't translate well to poorer areas where a low-level scroll could be worth the town's monthly production value.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on February 04, 2016, 12:23:24 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 04, 2016, 12:21:12 am

Pennies cost more than a penny to make, but pennies still exist.

Not in Canada, though.

The reason Canada canceled the penny is because of that very reason: they cost too much to make.
Also, Australia canceled the penny far before we did.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 04, 2016, 12:29:43 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 04, 2016, 12:21:12 am

Pennies cost more than a penny to make, but pennies still exist.

Pennies have a specific role in the currency system, though. They provide a physcial representation of the smallest denomination of monetary value. Scrolls don't have a similar role when things like the Favor exists. Using a scroll would be like like trying to buy a house with a car.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 04, 2016, 12:21:12 am

Trading scrolls wouldn't translate well to poorer areas where a low-level scroll could be worth the town's monthly production value.

I think the premise of the discussion is that the party is purchasing expensive things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 04, 2016, 01:27:46 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 04, 2016, 12:29:43 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 04, 2016, 12:21:12 am

Pennies cost more than a penny to make, but pennies still exist.

Pennies have a specific role in the currency system, though. They provide a physcial representation of the smallest denomination of monetary value. Scrolls don't have a similar role when things like the Favor exists. Using a scroll would be like like trying to buy a house with a car.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 04, 2016, 12:21:12 am

Trading scrolls wouldn't translate well to poorer areas where a low-level scroll could be worth the town's monthly production value.

I think the premise of the discussion is that the party is purchasing expensive things.

Indeed. even a lot of non-epic magic items cost upwards of, like, 10000 gp. That's upwards of 125 pounds (the weight of 10000 US quarters; the weight in question here would probably be higher as gold is denser and the gold coins are generally depicted as larger than a quarter) to lug around plus the weight of whatever you're carying it in.

So you can either carry around he weight of 400 sheets of parchment, or more than the weight of 500 $5 rolls of quarters.

Speaking of parchment, why does it cost less than paper in the phb? The whole reason why paper replaced parchment is that it's cheap.

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 04, 2016, 12:29:43 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 04, 2016, 12:21:12 am

Pennies cost more than a penny to make, but pennies still exist.

Pennies have a specific role in the currency system, though. They provide a physcial representation of the smallest denomination of monetary value.

Yeah. Without that they'd take the excust to round all the prices up.

I still don't like pennies though. I wish the government would bring back Fractional Currency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_currency_(United_States))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 04, 2016, 02:37:31 am

Attempting to make an Elementalist Homebrew for 5e.

Although with some tweaks taken from the 4e elementalist (such as element specific proficiencies, skills, saves, etc.) it pretty much is the Kineticist from pathfinder with their abilities functioning like the warlock invocations. Its not yet finished, and I will be running some tests, but I already changed quite a bit to fit 5e. For example, enervating infusion (now called weakening blast) causes disadvantages to all rolls until the next turn.

I also reduced it to only 5 elements which reflect the Book of Five Rings: Air, Earth, Fire, Water and Void. Void will end up functioning like a hybrid of pathfiner's aether and void kineticists though.

I'll throw it up here when I'm done so you guys can tell me how much of a bag of dicks I am for doing this. This is really fun but god damnit, it is time consuming. Its taken me three days of work to just get the effects of things down, and this isn't even doing any balancing between elements or anything yet. So far, it seems that void is the only one who's gotten anything good since all their attacks deal force or bludgeoning damage and because of the nihilist ideals they have, they aren't proficient with many weapons and instead gained the monk's martial arts effect to use their fists (no flurry of blows for them though). I also need to change how much damage these guys can dish out. The elemental blast right now is pretty disgusting on the kineticist, and I need to find some way to balance it (probably increase it every few levels and cap it off. I'll figure it out)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 04, 2016, 02:59:40 am

Dunno if this is any help, I know little about 4th edition and nothing about kineticists, but 3.5e's Complete Divine has the "Shugenja" which uses the 5 elements like that.  With some mostly-minor abilities, mostly just sensing sources of their elements.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 04, 2016, 09:19:30 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on February 04, 2016, 02:59:40 am

Dunno if this is any help, I know little about 4th edition and nothing about kineticists, but 3.5e's Complete Divine has the "Shugenja" which uses the 5 elements like that.  With some mostly-minor abilities, mostly just sensing sources of their elements.

There's also the Wu-Jen and Elemental Savant from Complete Arcane

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 05, 2016, 02:30:43 am

Do curses seem potentially bizarrely over-powerful to anyone else?

I mean, naively interpreted they arguably may have the power to influence the minds against creatures immune to mind-altering effects (at least as expanded in the BoVD, as in the case of a curse that lowers initial reactions to the cursee; the bestow curse does not have the mind-affecting tag thus making "immune to mind-affectig ppwers" arguably inapplicable, nor does it mention any saving throw for creatures other than the target) and to ignore Mordenkainen's Disjunction (which is not on the list of spells that can remove it)z

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 05, 2016, 04:16:53 am

Which is why a Potion of Remove Curse is a wise investment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Bohandas on February 06, 2016, 02:44:16 am

Quote from: Bohandas on January 29, 2016, 12:17:09 am

We'll come up with 101 ideas for cheap magic items!

25.) Correcting Quill: Anything written with this pen is always spelled coreectly (provided that the writer is actually familiar with the word they're trying to write, and also that they're not trying to spell incorrectly deliberately), and never smudges.  (CL 3; Craft Wondrous Item, amaunesis, prestidigitation; Price ~12-150 gp)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on February 06, 2016, 06:36:20 am

25.) Bloody Correcting Quill: Whenever something is misspelled with this quill it takes control of the wielder's hand and angrily marks misspelled word with jagged, red lines. The ink is drawn into the quill from the user's own blood.

26.) Paper Binding Advisor: When activated, this pin designed to hold together scripts will randomly pop up and offer self-obvious and unneeded advise on your office work. Sometimes it will activate itself even when disabled. It never offers helpful advise. It might watch you while you're sleeping.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 07, 2016, 03:21:57 am

One thing that is a bit annoying about having multiple DMs is keeping track of what is allowed and what is not. Especially when the DMs tend to switch places during the same campaign.

One DM is fine with just about anything, as long as you run it by him first. Another bans everything but Core. Even some Core stuff.

My character just had another facet of his build nerfed into the ground. Anyone know any good ways in Pathfinder to bump a fear effect from demoralization from Shaken to Frightened, or even Panicked?

No Unchained, so I can't nab Signature Skill (http://archivesofnethys.com/SkillUnlocks.aspx).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 07, 2016, 04:14:25 am

The Disheartening Display feat is about the only real option for increasing the fear effect due to demoralization from the Shaken condition to the Frightened status effect, at least for a general purpose character. You can also use the Dirty Trick Master feat as well. Both of these options require 2 consecutive rounds to inflict the Frightened status. Sacrificing two rounds of combat to inflict one status effect seems a rather poor trade however.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on February 07, 2016, 08:19:50 am

They should agree on a no ex post facto policy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 08, 2016, 12:20:02 am

My guy, hung over, was looking for a guy named Yewkeg, but because he's hung over and not thinking right, he kept shouting angrily for "my-keg" and he proceeded to do so until they ran into a bald dwarf named Harry Beardbeard. My guy laughed so hard, our party dwarf kicked my guy in the balls, resulting in a laughing, crying, high pitched voiced Longtooth shifter

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 08, 2016, 12:22:29 am

Sounds like your party is having fun at least, mine are currently freaking out about how to deal with an irate dragon and a plot to assassinate the queen.  At least I'm enjoying that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arcvasti on February 08, 2016, 12:35:22 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on February 08, 2016, 12:22:29 am

Sounds like your party is having fun at least, mine are currently freaking out about how to deal with an irate dragon and a plot to assassinate the queen.  At least I'm enjoying that.

The obvious solution is to make the dragon the queen. Then the dragon is mollified, just in time to be assassinated!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 08, 2016, 12:37:23 am

Ahahahaha if that actually WORKED...

Are these the human-becoming kind of dragons?  Because if so, YES DO IT DO EET DEW EEEEEET.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 08, 2016, 12:43:21 am

This dragon is male, has serious issues, and is just this side of unkillable, he just busted up the royal palace and kidnapped the thief girl.

The queen is actually currently very safe, with her five extremely loyal and incredibly dangerous generals guarding her.  Since the plot against her is being very carefully orchestrated from the shadows, no-one has any good data on what is going to happen.

It's an absolutely gorgeous mess and I am thrilled that it all happened so smoothly and through the players own actions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 08, 2016, 04:03:47 am

Here we go I made a new game this time.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=156131.0

If your free Sunday or Saturday then give it a look. Glad to have whoever can make it aboard!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 12, 2016, 07:35:44 pm

UGH! why do maps have to be so hard? I even found ways to cheat, but it still looks like garbagio.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 12, 2016, 09:38:49 pm

Quote from: greatorder on February 12, 2016, 09:35:20 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 08, 2016, 04:03:47 am

Here we go I made a new game this time.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=156131.0

If your free Sunday or Saturday then give it a look. Glad to have whoever can make it aboard!

Blegh. Of course I'd miss this.

Honestly go ahead and join it... >_< we are kind of low on players. Just please do it quickly

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on February 12, 2016, 10:27:56 pm

He might mean that he can't make that time. That's the biggest problem with real-time gaming.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 14, 2016, 03:21:03 am

This weeks session turned into a high speed chase featuring two magical tanks and a dragon stuck in human form.  Then the paladin started hearing the voice of his god, who, it turns out, happens to be more than a bit of a troll.  I am enjoying this far too much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 14, 2016, 03:25:50 am

I'm being asked if I am satisfied with my character. It's a gestalt campaign, and I never use my second class's abilities. I am a Kineticist/Barbarian, and I have yet to use Rage once.

I am a bit unhappy with it, as everything I've tried with it build-wise has fallen through. Though there isn't much that would work with a Kineticist in the first place.

I don't know if I should attempt to retrain or just try making a new character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 14, 2016, 04:48:02 am

Most people who add Barbarian pretty much do it for the 12hp a level. Second place is the Monk. Well at least for casters

It is kind of what makes me wish instead they just made Gaestalt classes that were unique and balanced towards one another (while still being more powerful then normal).

What about a Summoner? (Unchained for balance reasons)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 14, 2016, 05:04:28 am

Unchained isn't allowed by the DM. Plus I don't have the attributes to be a caster, and our party is large enough as is.

Monk might be ok, if only because Kinetic Fist goes well with unarmed and natural attacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 14, 2016, 05:20:14 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 14, 2016, 05:04:28 am

Unchained isn't allowed by the DM.

O_O

Odd... the reason I suggested unchained summoner is because he isn't stupidly broken... and the unchained classes are more balanced in general. It is a weird thing to ban.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 14, 2016, 05:56:43 pm

The Unchained Rogue gets Dex to damage at level three. That's considered broken. Plus they get Dex-and-a-half with Estocs, Elven Curved Blades, and Elven Branched Spears.

Signature Skills are also very powerful. Plus this DM considers Pathfinder Unchained to be a preview of Pathfinder 2.0, and as such won't allow it since it is for another game system, or something.

Not that I don't have other character ideas, I just want to use a Kineticist. Not too much goes with it easily, due to the play-style.

Plus just about everyone else is using their OC donut steel characters, so I may as well use mine while I can. Which is kind of funny, since everyone is at least a half-human race, rather than any of the special-snowflake races.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 12:12:32 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 14, 2016, 05:56:43 pm

The Unchained Rogue gets Dex to damage at level three. That's considered broken. Plus they get Dex-and-a-half with Estocs, Elven Curved Blades, and Elven Branched Spears.

Still secondary to the Fighter and Barbarian's ability to rack up damage and without "Sorry, the bees" situation.

Or rather I think what people find broken is that they are a lot better then rogues. Unless there are broken builds I am unaware of.

Though it is still odd since only the Unchained rogue is "more powerful" noticeably.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 14, 2016, 05:56:43 pm

Signature Skills are also very powerful. Plus this DM considers Pathfinder Unchained to be a preview of Pathfinder 2.0, and as such won't allow it since it is for another game system, or something.
[quote\]

Fair enough.

Though the reason Signature skills are so powerful is because they took away their previous non-optional signature skills and went "What if they were optional?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 15, 2016, 12:13:24 am

dont be mean to rogues

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 12:20:00 am

The only thing the Core Rogue can do that no-one else can is disable magical traps/locks.

Having Dex to damage is really good though. AC, Reflex, and Skills. All Strength is for is melee damage, melee accuracy, swimming and climbing, and carrying capacity.

Also, "sorry, the bees" means what?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 12:23:29 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 12:20:00 am

Also, "sorry, the bees" means what?

It is from a parody of Inuyasha

In it there is a character who can throw someone into a blackhole... but is completely disabled if bees are in the area.

Rogues in 3.5 were especially this "Sorry party, but you know, I am completely disabled" and Pathfinder made leaps and bounds to fix that (maybe 10% of enemies are immune to rogues versus 50%+ in 3.5)

I will say though that I am probably wrong about the "Dex = damage" being to avoid that. I think it is actually to give "Dex Rogues" a boost since there is no reason to go for dex as a rogue. Allowing people to keep the flavor of rogues without feeling like they are kneecapping themselves WHILE also making "Thug" rogues legit at the same time as there is no reason not to still go for strength as a rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 15, 2016, 12:34:26 am

why go strength when finesse exists

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 12:39:04 am

Like I said, you get less out of Strength than Dex, and if you don't need Strength in the first place, why focus on it when you could pump Dex and gain much better benefits?

I have been trying to think of classes that would mesh well together, but don't thematically make sense together. Like a Ninja/Paladin. Both Charisma based. Though actually using some of your Ninja abilities would probably break your Paladin code.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 15, 2016, 12:42:59 am

Wizard/Barbarian?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 12:46:10 am

Can't cast spells in a Rage in Pathfinder, unless you have the Moment of Clarity Rage Power. Which negates your Rage bonuses, while still consuming Rage rounds. But better than deactivating Rage and getting fatigued.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 15, 2016, 12:49:17 am

..Wizard/Fighter?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 12:52:49 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 12:39:04 am

Like I said, you get less out of Strength than Dex, and if you don't need Strength in the first place, why focus on it when you could pump Dex and gain much better benefits?

Because Strength gets you damage and a lot of it and Dex doesn't. While you can supplement lack of dex with armor AND rogues already supplement lack of dex with improved evasion (which is like having infinite dex) and high reflex save allowing you to beat out even dex fighter.

And a strength Rogue also has the major advantage of being useful in "all" situations as opposed to "most"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 12:57:44 am

Made a revenant race with variants for 5e because the homebrew one on the D&D wiki and the one in the monster manual suck ass. It prevents you from having games with a party that stays together for a long period of time. I'll leave it in a code thing for you guys, but the main reason why I did it was I liked the Revenant from 4e, but when I looked at it in the monster manual, I got turned off by a few things. One: they had innate regen. This instantly makes the race unplayable unless you remove it, which causes people to complain because it doesn't "follow the actual creature". Two: they die within a year or when they fulfill their revenge. Again, this limits you from having a good, solid party that can build and grow over time. Instead, you're stuck with a guy who will probably spearhead the party however he wants. This also kind of leads to point three: they're only fueled by revenge, whereas the 4e Revenant could be risen for a goal other than revenge. It REALLY limits character building and forces your revenant to be what the original idea was: to play as Eric Draven from The Crow. Four: you revive without the use of items within 24 hours, and you just get back to killing. This means you don't need revival spells if your party sticks near your target or if you can get to your party fast enough since you still remember them. Thats also point five: you don't have any mystery with your Revenant, you just remember things in life and you're too pissed off to care and you just want to murder people. Its boring, its overdone, and it really takes away character building.

My goal was to do the following: reformat the monster manual's revenant to a playable race and remove/change little. Make that one variant. Make another variant that fixes or removes the problems with the monster manual revenant that makes it playable and base it off of the 4e one with some changes that makes it more 5e friendly. Add some flavor, looks and basic storyline ideas (Aka, the fact the monster manual ones are raised in Bhaal's favor and the ones like 4e's raised by The Raven Queen) and you got what I have given unto you.

Code: [Select]

Revenant:
Undying Soul – You are considered undead for creature type. However, you are immune to effects that would harm you for being undead, such as turn/destroy undead. When you are knocked to 0hp, you do not fall unconscious right away, and instead fall unconscious at the end of your next turn.
Past Life – Select a race other than Revenant. You were this race in your past life
Ability Score Increase - You get a +1 to dexterity
Darkvision – You gain darkvision 60ft
Proficiencies/Languages/Skills – You gain all proficiencies that you had in your past life
Revenant Variants: Select Fury from Beyond the Grave or Duty from Beyond the Grave. Your size and Speed depend on which one you selected.
   - Fury from Beyond the Grave – You were wronged in your past life and seek revenge against your foes. You have one year after you awaken to get revenge against a target (which can be a single target or a group). These Revenants, returned to the mortal realm by the god Bhaal, look exactly as they did in life, regardless of the body they took in death, including all wounds and scars with an undead demeanor on them, making them much more intimidating than they were in life. Unlike the Duty from Beyond the Grave Revenants, they remember everything from their past life, including every single wrong done to them. These Revenants are made when their living souls died and the will of their soul desired murderous revenge more than anything, and/or Bhaal had a desire for more bloodshed
     o You know the distance and direction to your closest target at all times and what plane of existence they are on
     o Size: you are whatever size you were in your past life
     o Speed: You have the same speed as whatever you were in your past life
     o When you die, your body crumbles to dust like the disintegrate spell (your belongings remain where you were) and you reawaken after 24 hours in a random corpse on the same plane that you died on. In this time, someone can force your soul to go to the afterlife if they use a wish spell. You cannot be revived through the powers of the resurrection or revivify spell, even to revive your revenant body
     o If you fail to kill your target within a year, or all of your targets are killed, you turn to dust as the disintegrate spell, though your belongings remain and you cannot be revived
     o You gain a +1 charisma
   - Duty from Beyond the Grave – You are inclined to fulfill an action that was something you either failed to do in life or the Raven Queen has sent for you to do. You only remember snippets of your past life, and at certain points (DM’s discretion) you may remember more of your past life, especially when someone or something from your past life comes into effect. You also have more raven-like features, which may include, but not limited to, feathers on certain parts of your body, talon-like fingernails, raven-like feet, and others (Speak to your DM in regards to this), and you show very little features of what you looked like in your past life. These Revenants rise when a duty that needed to be fulfilled in life outweighed their desires of a peaceful afterlife and/or the Raven Queen decides that you have a task that needs to be done
     o When you die, you can be revived by spells such as true resurrection and revivify, but you return as a revenant instead of your body in your past life. If you are not revived, you are brought back in a new body within a year’s time (minimum of 1 day). You retain all memories you had during your life as a revenant. Just like the Fury from Beyond the Grave Revenant, during this time, your soul can be forced to the afterlife if a wish spell is cast on you during your time of vulnerability, but before the halfway mark
     o Size: you are size medium
     o Speed: 30ft
     o Once per day, you may maximize a hit die roll during a short rest equal to your proficiency bonus per day. You can only use the maximize effect once. When you use this maximized heal effect, you can re-attach severed limbs
     o Gain a +1 to constitution


Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 15, 2016, 12:42:59 am

Wizard/Barbarian?

Isn't that what a bloodrager is?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 15, 2016, 12:59:35 am

I don't see many situations where high Strength would be especially useful for a Rogue (but this is coming from my sleep-deprived self at 1 am EST, so..)
Carry weight is an issue? Load some gear onto the Paladin; they won't mind.
Thinking you might be climbing/swimming/etc often? Athletics proficiency.
Not a lot of damage getting through? You're not a damage class anyway.

@HM: Looks pretty cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 01:02:03 am

Wait, aren't we still talking about having Dex-to-damage here with the Unchained Rogue?

A Rogue will probably get most of their damage output from their Sneak Attack dice anyhow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 01:04:27 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 01:02:03 am

Wait, aren't we still talking about having Dex-to-damage here with the Unchained Rogue?

No we are talking about why Unchained rogues have the "Dex-to-damage" ability.

And I am saying it is because Rogues actually are overall better off going strength as their main instead of dexterity.

While the argument against that idea is that Rogues are in fact not better off going strength and their true talents lie with dexterity.

So we are going back and forth with our points.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 15, 2016, 01:09:28 am

If you aren't playing a Stealth-y Rogue
1. Mistake or
2. Different archetype

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 01:14:59 am

With all their skills, they could be anything. They just need to find a way to get their Sneak Attacks in. Flanking isn't just for sneaky people, feinting is more about skill than sneakiness, and there are plenty of ways to make opponents flat-footed, such as the Shatter Defences feat, allowing even an intimidating brute to still be effective.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 01:16:18 am

It's a trade-off for Rogues. In comparison to a Fighter, a standard Rogue (not Unchained) gets the majority of their melee damage bonus from Sneak Attack. Remember, each Sneak Attack die is worth an average of 3.5 extra damage, comparable to increasing your Strength by 7 points. Imagine if a Fighter got an extra 7 points of Strength every 2 levels! Of course, this is only for damage, and doesn't help with their low BAB. It's also situational and requires flanking or denying the opponent their Dex to AC.

To get the most from their bonus damage, they want to have as high a chance to hit as possible. Usually this is either through increasing Strength, with a corresponding increase in bonus damage, or increasing Dexterity and adding Weapon Finesse. The Dexterity route adds to your AC, Reflex saves and Initiative too, all great things for a Rogue. By comparison, a few extra points of damage in melee is a poor trade when you're throwing out massive amounts of d6 damage already. In short, Dexterity to hit is the preferred option for a Rogue, with the Thug Rogue being secondary from a purely mechanical perspective.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 01:17:56 am

Your acting like a strength rogue loses out on sneak attack damage.

A strength rogue gets it all. If a Strength rogue wants to be a sneaky SOB, he easily can.

Can I have a "Taking this personally" check? I have a feeling this is getting heated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 01:30:21 am

I kind of have to side with the fact a rogue with strength does work better than a pure dex rogue.

Not only does the standard damage increase, but it also means the ability to carry more garbage that you steal from random people.

They also get the benfit of climb checks with strength, which is fantastic. I had a game where climb checks were big because boats, mountains, etc. but it would depend on DM for that.

And I would much rather have a rogue with some strength and a decent dex than have a rogue with fantastic dex and piss poor strength.

And whats the ruling on weapons that can use sneak attack damage? I forgot

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 15, 2016, 12:59:35 am

I don't see many situations where high Strength would be especially useful for a Rogue (but this is coming from my sleep-deprived self at 1 am EST, so..)
Carry weight is an issue? Load some gear onto the Paladin; they won't mind.
Thinking you might be climbing/swimming/etc often? Athletics proficiency.
Not a lot of damage getting through? You're not a damage class anyway.

@HM: Looks pretty cool.

Thanks. Mostly wanting to know if I went a bit over the top with anything

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 01:34:08 am

Specifically Rogues can do sneak attack damage with any weapon, so long as he does it within 30 feet.

It is tough, but you can make legitimate ranged rogues (I love them! even if it requires good team co-ordination to pull off... or a DM who fudges sneak rolls for ducking out of cover to attack)

Ohh well ducking out of the argument, payment is too high :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 01:36:57 am

For Pathfinder, you get your Sneak Attack when you attack a character that is Flat-Footed, or otherwise denied their Dexterity to AC, and when you are flanking an opponent. There are a few archetypes that change it up, such as the Scout, which can Sneak Attack so long as they move at least 10 feet before attacking. You can Sneak Attack with any weapon. There is a Rogue talent and an archetype to increase the range you can Sneak Attack at. Also the Slayer's Sniper archetype.

A base Rogue benefits more from Strength. At least until you can afford an Agile-enchanted weapon. An Unchained Rogue pretty much revolves around Dex starting at level 3, when they get Dex to damage instead of Strength for a finesse-weapon of their choice. If you choose a finesse-weapon that can be held in two hands, such as the Estoc, the Elven Curved Blade, or the Elven Branched Spear, then you can get Dex-and-a-half to damage. Which is weird, which is part of why the Unchained Rogue is banned by this DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arcvasti on February 15, 2016, 01:44:44 am

Quote from: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 01:17:56 am

A strength rogue gets it all.

Strength gives a bonus to damage and to-hit. Dexterity gives a bonus to various other useful things that rouges like as well as to-hit. A strength rouge gets better consistent damage and better Climb and Swim checks[Which, granted, are quite useful for some thiefy stuff]. A dex rouge gets better defenses[AC + Reflex] and initiative, as well as better other skills. Dex rouge does have one major advantage: Ranged sneak attacks. Preliminary research[There's probably SOME way to change this, but I can't find it] indicates that you can ONLY use dexterity to get extra to-hit on ranged weapons. Since Dex also gives a bonus to initiative and you can sneak attack flat-footed people, a dex rouge can launch a pretty robust alpha strike from 30 ft away while strength rouges[Or even melee dex rouges] have to waste their move getting within melee range instead of full attacking.

---

FAKEEDIT: Well, most of my points have been ninjaed. TLDR is that dex/strength really just give different feels to the class[Synergy with class abilities vs compensating for class weaknesses] and that dex is straight-up better for ranged rouges. Both still mostly suck vs constructs or undead[Strength less so, though].

DOUBLEFAKEEDIT: This post was written with 3.5e in mind. I'm not as familiar with Pathfinder, although I do own the Core Rulebook[Which I should really look into sometime].

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 02:02:08 am

I would probably ban it too, honestly. Then again, I'm a DM who likes to see teams who aren't min maxed to hell and back. I'm currently playing one and forced to play one after that campaign because the rules lawyer player has made the game so unplayable for anyone who does because the DM scales to that player and not the rest of the party.

I'm not even joking. Our party fought a dracolich at level 9 with 5 party members. And it was dead in 4 turns. How? The party has an eldritch godling who can channel positive and negative energy better than a cleric can and managed to nuke the dracolich after three turns of charging to almost half his HP.

On turn 2, I did 256 fire damage being a kineticist and scoring a double crit. On my fourth turn, I did 64 damage and dropped the enemy since it takes me two turns to charge up and unload a blast at the enemy and NOT kill myself in the process. It's not fun anymore because I literally would walk into a room and an enemy would appear and I would insta kill it by doing 115 damage to it before it gets a chance to react. I ended up torching illusions of a guy's dad, the rule's lawyers character's mom, some guy's mentor, a guy who made magical nukes, and this guy who I killed when I got possessed by putting a gun to his head and firing.

And then comes the rules lawayer's one-off game where he DMs the final part of his character's storyline where we fight his brothers. Everything is legitimately made as a possible PC, and what happens? We're fighting two level 20 summoners, one of which has an eidolon that's essentially a kraken, and the other spams little dudes and redirects my fire at my flammable allies. All 115 damage from a maximized and empowered hit without critical strikes. It's not fun because it's me, the rules lawyer and the enemy dropping damage in the 100's, and everyone he made has an AC of 30+, and his eldritch godling has a charisma score of 47 AND CAN INSTA KILL EVERYONE WITH A NEGATIVE ENERGY BLAST. And he doesn't care he's already accidentally killed a player. The only reason I'm able to do anything is because my ungodly amount of damage attacks target touch AC. And somehow, it seems I'm the only one who can do that, since the godling is sitting around charging her energy for 10 rounds to do something and not trying to heal anything (this is his cohort, so she's level 9 or something), the guys actual character is dead because I blasted his face off when my blast redirected at him, and no one else can possibly do anything except the gunslinger who's got two revolvers that are only good because he's supposed to be the GM's (the REAL GM) character who helps us in combat.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I hate min-maxed characters and this is why...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 02:07:01 am

Meanwhile, we are playing a Gestalted Mythic campaign. We are way OP even without optimization.

Mythic Champions basically get an extra move action at Tier 3 with Fleet Warrior, which allows you to make a Full-Attack-Action, while still being allowed to move up to their speed before or after.

I'm just wondering if their are any silly class combinations that would still work well mechanically. My Kineticist's Barbarian half isn't that great. Not much would go well with a Kineticist though, due to their playstyle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 02:15:59 am

What is the main stat of a Kineticist?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 02:20:44 am

Dex to hit with their Kinetic Blasts and for some ability DCs, and Con for their blast's damage and for the rest of their DCs. If they go melee with Kinetic Blade, Whip, or Fist, they will need Strength to hit if they don't have Weapon Finesse, though they will still use Con for damage.

The playstyle will vary depending on their Element choices and their Infusion choices. Infusions either alter the form of the blast, for example, turning the single-target blast into a cone, or it may add rider effects, such as an Earth blast Entangling the target.

I don't have the attributes to be a mental-based Caster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 02:22:28 am

Ahhh Con and Dex

Alchemist is a huge one albeit complicated. (actually I am probably wrong)

Fighter is excellent! (Give him a Bow and BAM!)

Rogue works given he only needs Dex and Con.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 02:25:21 am

Alchemist is banned. DM doesn't like that class for various nonsensical reasons. Mostly aimed at how annoying it is to figure out whether or not a caster-related thing is allowed to work on one, and because he doesn't like a few discoveries, such as Mummification.

Non-Boltace Gunslingers aren't allowed either. Nor are Swashbucklers, even though Opportune-Parry-and-Riposte has been nerfed, which was this DM's complaint about them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 02:26:38 am

Then go Bow Fighter. Since Rangers would split your attribute pool too much.

And (and I am not going to argue it due to... reasons...) Fighters make better pure Archers then even Rangers can aspire to.

PLUS! I believe Fighter might actually get feats that apply to your blasts... But I'll have to check.

Quote

Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus.

Yep Fighter and Rogue = Amazing. (rogue is more tricky)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 02:33:13 am

I would need a Conductive-Enchanted bow to use my blasts with them. Which would mean giving up being able to use Gather Energy, since my hands wouldn't be free. All appendages have to be free, it states.

Which is a weird requirement. A Vanaran or Tiefling would need their tails free. A Grippli would need their tongue free if they took the Agile Tongue feat. Technically, a bird would need to land so its wings are free. There's probably more weird examples if you look long enough. Like a Hydrokinetic squid needing all its tentacles free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 02:34:32 am

Go crossbow and use hand crossbow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 02:37:27 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 02:07:01 am

Meanwhile, we are playing a Gestalted Mythic campaign. We are way OP even without optimization.

Mythic Champions basically get an extra move action at Tier 3 with Fleet Warrior, which allows you to make a Full-Attack-Action, while still being allowed to move up to their speed before or after.

I'm just wondering if their are any silly class combinations that would still work well mechanically. My Kineticist's Barbarian half isn't that great. Not much would go well with a Kineticist though, due to their playstyle.

Kineticist is fantastic by itself. I'm playing a fire one and I just harass the fuck out of everyone with touch attacks. Sadly, I'm pretty much Saitama from One Punch Man; everything dies so quickly that I just lose interest.

My turn rolls around, I either charge or I blast. Gestalt seems cool, but it doesn't seem to appeal to me honestly. The rules lawyer loves it, and I think one of the summoners we're fighting is a gestalt swashbuckler and paracosmos summoner, though I may be wrong on that.

Then again, the classes I WANT to play as end up getting shafted because they kind of suck and don't get better. Like after this campaign is done, we have a game where we are law enforcement professionals, and he happens to be the ex-convict who runs around with a sniper rifle that deals... I think it was 8^15 damage he said? And because of how he said he wants to roll with that character, he's gonna probably go against the ideals of how the party is (law enforcement), which means he's gonna but heads with everyone using chemical weapons and a death laser that can't be jammed or anything. I actually tried in several scenarios brought up to them, asking what would happen if X happens. He makes unkillable characters and forces us to be like that. My wizard has a habit of trapping and keeping people alive, but I'm stuck with a murderous psychopath who my character is probably going to try and arrest right off the bat for not helping us, and promptly get spanked by a sniper nuke launcher...

I really need to stop derailing this with how shitty this person is. Again, the brokenness isn't bad when you keep up, but when the characters tend to just want to kill everyone for the sake of doing it, and they can blow up the planet by spitting on it, why bother playing?

Quote from: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 02:15:59 am

What is the main stat of a Kineticist?

Guy already said it, but what's also cool about them is they're unique with their elements. There is the standard 4 elements, fire/air/earth/water that do element things, aether, which is a telekenetic, void, which is negative energy based, and wood, which is completely terrible.

I tried making a 5e class based on it called an elementalist and in my first play test of it, I spanked myself in a CR2 battle with a single level 4 elementalist that used the equivalent of kinetic fist (changed it so it's elemental weapon but for fists, since I made weapons element specific and void has a limited form of the monk's martial arts and access to only shortswords and daggers), and because everything with the kineticist/my elementalist deals non-lethal damage to you, you can essentially kill yourself if you're not prepared.

In pathfinder, this isn't a problem because you can buy gear to enhance your con score and get extra Hp every level with the favoured class bonus. But in 5e, the most bonus HP you get is from tough(ness), and your scores cap out at 20. This means at higher levels, you are taking so much damage from the "burn" as its called, that you can use like 4 abilities before dropping like a sack of potatoes. I don't know how to fix it yet, but I may have it work just like spending ki points or however the Mystic works.

It's still a work in progress, but I'll post my thing for it tomorrow when I'm done adding junk to one of the elements. The reason being is that void got the shaft in the kineticist, which is sad, because it had the coolest abilities with gravity master and such. If it had more wild talents catered to it as much as aether, fire, water, earth and air did, it would probably be a Favorite to play. It's final ability is reverse gravity at will and you can change he direction that it sends people at will. So you can essentially throw people into walls and stuff and then drop them on the floor, letting gravity do all the work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 02:45:33 am

I am trying to think about how to make a Fighter Shine as a Kineticist

Which so far a fighter is great... but the bigger issue is the weapon training they get just flat out doesn't apply to Kinetic blast.

Armor Master and Mobile Fighter lose out on less for the combination.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 02:56:34 am

Quote from: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 01:17:56 am

Your acting like a strength rogue loses out on sneak attack damage.

A strength rogue gets it all. If a Strength rogue wants to be a sneaky SOB, he easily can.

Can I have a "Taking this personally" check? I have a feeling this is getting heated.

Nope, no personal feelings here, just comparing notes on character builds.

Strength Rogues don't lose out on Sneak Attack, but they do lose out on the other things I mentioned before. In comparison, for Strength vs. Dexterity, per +1 ability modifier you get:

Strength Rogue:
+1 free feat (no need to take Weapon Finesse)
+1 Melee Weapon/Composite Bow Damage
+1 Thrown Weapon To-Hit/Damage
+1 to Climb and Swim
+15 lbs light load carry weight, approximately

Dexterity Rogue:
+1 Ranged Weapon To-Hit
+1 to Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand and Stealth
+1 Reflex Save
+1 Initiative
+1 AC

I'd rate the comparison of Skills to be a clear win in favour of a Dexterity Rogue, with most of the archetypal Roguish skills featuring here. Swim and Climb skill checks are usually set DC, and at higher levels magical items and spells render them obsolete completely through gaining a Fly or Swim speed. In comparison, you always want your Disable Device check as high as possible, and Acrobatics DC for tumbling increases in difficulty depending on the opponent's CMD (at higher levels impossibly so) meaning every bit helps. Stealth is an opposed roll too, so you want this as big as possible.

+1 to Reflex Save is debatable in usefulness, since Improved Evasion is a thing. However, taking half damage vs. taking no damage at all is still worth remembering. +1 AC and +1 Initiative are both golden, equal to 2 Traits total, which is itself worth a Feat. By contrast, improved carry weight rarely becomes an issue past 4th or 5th level, when most characters should be able to afford a Handy Haversack/Heavyload Belt/Muleback Cords.

Finally, a mention should be made to Rogue weapon proficiencies, which as a class favour Dexterity based builds over Strength. The alternative is, of course, spending a Feat on a weapon proficiency, negating the bonus feat gained from being a Strength Rogue.

From a character optimization perspective, I hope the above shows my reasoning behind supporting a Dexterity Rogue as the superior option. Of course, this isn't to say that's how every character should be built or that it's wrong to build a Strength Rogue, merely that a Dexterity Rogue has an advantage from the raw numbers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 03:01:31 am

There are times when you can fly but still need to climb though. Technically. It shouldn't be possible for a medium or small creature to fly up a five-foot-square shaft, technically. Their wingspans wouldn't allow it, even though the rules do. Might not be possible for some birds, even.

Having a Swim or Climb speed grants those as class skills and gives a +8 bonus to them though, so it does render most DCs obsolete.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 15, 2016, 03:01:40 am

I don't think that arguing in favor of skill bonus is very useful when it comes to the incredibly skill-point overloaded rogue honestly.  I'd say you both have really good points as far as build goes, but what I take away from it is that a dex rogue with strength as their second highest attribute would be able to dole out a lot of damage.  But I don't optimize (and actively discourage through use of rule zero attempts to do so) so take that for what you will.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 03:10:13 am

In the event you have to climb out of a chimney or space too tight to Fly, you'd be getting a -10 modifier applied to the Climb DC, effectively meaning your Climb score is 10 ranks higher than normal. And if all that isn't enough, there's something to be said for carrying a 50 gp Monkey Fish potion as an emergency backup.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 03:24:12 am

I can't argue in favor of anything

But I will say that you also have to take into account what feats and equipment both will have to get in order to be viable within their sphere.

For example as I PMed Jimmy a Strength Rogue doesn't actually get a free feat slot. They have to get an armor upgrade with that feat. That armor upgrade also comes with armor penalties and maximum dex bonus.

This means that a Strength Rogue has to dedicate 2 feats, not one. Hits its effective max dex at 16 (+3) instead of 26 (+8) and gets a -6 to -3 armor check penalty assuming a specific build of course.

Though Dex Rogue will likely go for Mithril Chainshirt which is 22 (+6) dex max.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 03:41:51 am

Certainly gear plays into it as well, but it's best to simply look at the differences without assuming access to certain equipment. For example, a Rogue with +5 bonus actually gets better protection from a +1 Comfort Mithral Breastplate than a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, and even without the feat for Medium Armor Proficiency can wear the item at no penalty since the ACP is 0. Ultimately this is situational and depends on the game and the gear though, and with the above example if you were to gain a +Dexterity belt slot item, you'd need to swap out your armor to benefit from the bonus AC (though upgrading to Celestial Armor is never a bad plan).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 04:47:52 am

while yes dex does increase AC

The Strength build, for example, caps out at a higher AC then the Dex Build. It also does so at a lower investment of attribute points.

With a total armor check penalty of -2 versus 0.

Likewise every 2 points in strength increases damage by +1.5 not 1 because there is no reason for a Rogue to go one handed as they cannot have shields and cannot do two weapon fighting effectively.

As well the maximum skill point bonus for strength versus dex build is +1 compared to +6 for a net of +5.

The cap of stealth between both builds at level 10 are: 28 versus 33. The perception bonus for a high perception creature appropriate for that level is about +22 for a passive of 33.

Essentially a Dex build gets a 100% chance and a Strength build needs to roll a 15-20.

The average perception is too low for either to fail.

Mind you, if you shift to a Medium armor Strength build, it becomes an entirely different ratio where the difference is just 1. But that requires so much investment in dex.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on February 15, 2016, 05:03:25 am

Spoiler: Y'all seen this one yet? (click to show/hide)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h2glqJOvca0/UYHCbqCeNoI/AAAAAAAAJiI/ujPBZXEQAwc/s640/tumblr_mm4ars3PoP1qi28m7o1_1280.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 05:06:42 am

That is one expensive arrow. I wonder what is more expensive. That arrow or an arrow of slaying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on February 15, 2016, 05:14:36 am

Good question. I can't help but feel this is more effective in many situations, because AOE.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 05:18:15 am

Given the weight. It probably would be better off being like a baton.

I mean it is a 15 pound arrow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 15, 2016, 05:23:29 am

Load it into a ballista and you'll be fine.

Come to think of it, a ten-foot sphere of complete obliteration would be invaluable in a siege scenario.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on February 15, 2016, 05:31:09 am

Either "Hey, did y'all like having a wall? My bad." or "Hey, did y'all like having a high-level commander? My bad."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on February 15, 2016, 05:33:06 am

It'd be good for breaching doors, I guess, but it'd probably be super expensive to bombard a city with 'em.
That was my first thought, too. :(
 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 15, 2016, 05:34:54 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on February 15, 2016, 05:23:29 am

Load it into a ballista and you'll be fine.

Come to think of it, a ten-foot sphere of complete obliteration would be invaluable in a siege scenario.

Well in Pathfinder they still are alive. You just teleported them away. It also only includes creatures, not so much objects.

And a DM COULD argue that it requires a save (And magic items are terrible in terms of saving throws) but yeah as written all creatures in 10ft of it get sucked into the astral plane.

And in DnD 3.5 yep! outright destruction!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 09:39:51 am

Gonna kind of make one last say on the Str rogue thing and mention a few things:

If you're in a position as a dex rogue and AC is ever needed, you're playing it wrong, your big stupid fighter (aka tank) isn't doing his job, or your party's field controller/buffer sucks. You're a glass cannon, you're designed to do a lot of damage but not risk the hit. If your field controller isn't making your life easier or your tank isn't being a tank, and you're taking hits, you shouldn't have gone in yet.

As a rogue going strength, I gurarentee as well that skills aren't your main priority anymore as you're going for damage output. And that also depends on your int score and how you plan to play your rogue. You can be like my rogue I made and be absolute shit at slight of hand and stealth, but you can talk your way to convince a guy to give you the shirt off his back for useless shit.

As for the two weapon thing, rogues can dual weild and get two sneak attacks off, can't they? I read in a rogue build somewhere that it was the most viable option because it's hard to do an archer rogue and get sneak attack off in pathfinder (whereas in 4e and 5e, you get sneak attacks almost every time you attack. It's nuts).

And honestly, as a strength rogue, you want to go before the enemy as all rogues do, but the higher init doesn't help when you're supposed to be coordinating your attacks as the tank moves in and smacks someone. Then you come in. Which is why yes, a high init can be great, but as a rogue, you don't want to go first and going last might even be a viable option.

And if you're a rogue, unless you work well with your party as someone said before, you're not getting ranged attacks with sneak attack, so you're crippling yourself if you think a +1 To ranged helps in that sense.

For the strength build though, let's look at the flaws. Yes, lower skills and potentially lower AC if you roll with a naked rogue with a 40 dex, but again, AC shouldn't be a worry. And you get a disadvantage with rolls assuming you take heavier Armor, which is a -3, right? That's not that big of a problem actually if you still keep your dex up to snuff (thinking 16/17/18 dex) and pumping skills into it. Your skills aren't limited by your dex mod at all, it just makes it better. That's how a rogue works with their ungodly amount of skill points. You're also scaling it to things that are highly perceptive, but things with that perception will either have scent or some other supernatural vision, so your stealth checks would be rendered useless anyways. If you're a good rogue, you'll have gear to compensate for the dex problem with stealth and such anyway, such as greater shadow Armor (which is fantastic. My Druid had it and he ran around doing stealth shit with Barry the stealth bear). And as the party rogue, getting gear shouldn't be a problem, be it you're a strength or dex rogue. Either by conning people or stealing it right from the source, you're still a rogue and will do things that rogues do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on February 15, 2016, 02:51:30 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 09:39:51 am

As for the two weapon thing, rogues can dual weild and get two sneak attacks off, can't they? I read in a rogue build somewhere that it was the most viable option because it's hard to do an archer rogue and get sneak attack off in pathfinder (whereas in 4e and 5e, you get sneak attacks almost every time you attack. It's nuts).

Looking at the SRD's for 3.5 and Pathfinder, it seems like like you actually can get sneak attack with every hit. That seems weird to me, since in 4e and 5e you can only do it once a round (well, 4e is limited to once a round, 5e is once a turn, so you could technically get off another sneak attack on an opportunity attack, but those are a lot more rare in 5e since they're basically only when someone tries to move out of your reach, or something like a Battlemaster Fighter maneuver that lets you attack on someone else's turn). But, then, as highmax mentioned, you usually will get to use sneak attack every round in those games, since sneak attack has no limits on targets and your attack modifier is going to be pretty much the same as everyone else so long as you're all maxing your relevant ability scores.

Also, the whole, "is a Rogue getting to use DEX for damage overpowered?" thing seems weird from the 4e/5e perspective, since in those games a Rogue uses DEX for attack and damage by default (in 4e because those are what its powers use, and in 5e because they can only use finesse and ranged weapons for sneak attack, both of which use DEX for attack and damage by default). It's possible there might be some combinations from that that might be broken in 3.5/Pathfinder that I don't know about, but, as has been said, sneak attack does more damage than you get from Ability bonus, and 3.5/Pathfinder have higher damage ceilings than 4e/5e, so I don't really understand what the big fuss is about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 03:08:31 pm

Actually, in 4e, the damage is much higher than pathfinder if you're not counting critical hits. The reason being is that 4e critical hits just maximize damage, but a lot of the daily powers for the heavy damage dealers (ie berserker/barbarian, vampire, sorcerer, etc) revolve around things like the kineticist where it's a lot of damage in one burst, whereas most damage done in 3.5 and pathfinder is from several attacks doing regular amounts of damage.

I did 200+ damage in one turn as a berserker in 4e, which is a cap I've only beaten in pathfinder twice, and both were from landing a critical hit more than once (I insta-killed a Titanic centipede as a two weapon ranger that had a weapon with an 18-20 crit range innately).

5e tried to go and do the multiple attacks thing, which works, but to an extent. It's not massive or heavy damage, but it's still pretty consistent with big hits. I do admit, I like 4e a lot for many reasons, but I'm hoping with 5e, they expand on it and give back the huge customization and such that 4e had. I'm hoping they finish the mystic soon, because psionics were awesome. And that they also re-release the vampire and blackguard classes (not the 3.5 one, the 4e one)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 15, 2016, 03:32:42 pm

Didn't they release a blackguard subclass for paladins? It was called Oath Breaker, but it was basically blackguard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 04:01:45 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 15, 2016, 03:32:42 pm

Didn't they release a blackguard subclass for paladins? It was called Oath Breaker, but it was basically blackguard.

I differenciate blackguard and anti-paladin only because the playstyle was different. It was the difference between the Dark Knights in final fantasy III and Cecil the Dark Knight in final fanasy IV. Both similar, but have some differences.

For one, the oathbreaker paladin is an anti-paladin is merely an evil aligned paladin with powers that cater to evil rather than good. Blackguards were any alignment in 4e and though they weren't necessarily evil, they were slaves to their darker sides (they used vices to power their attacks). And blackguards have one really cool effect I remember where they did extra damage based on temporary HP that they gained (and they gained A LOT of it with their abilities). It reminded me of the souleater ability dark knights had in Final Fantasy III, and they were really cool.

I do like some of the things 5e said and used to bunch everything together, like making the avenger a paladin variant and such, but it really made things just stuck closer together. I miss my berserker, which was a barbarian that had good defences and when he wasn't raging, was amazing at tanking. The only way to get close to recreating it is to make a barbarian, take sentinel, and stock up on a buttload of gear, which isn't too bad, but it really makes the berserker impossible to return.

One class I also feel should make a comeback is the Skald, which is a bard that instead of directly buffing their allies as individuals, it revolved around singing songs or telling stories and used it as an aura effect, which allowed people to heal in it or gain awesome bonuses, like a bonus to damage rolls. They kind of have that, but it doesn't fit right with me.

Oh, and here's my current progress on my elementalist for 5e. Its long, its conmplicated, but I HOPE it works enough for now.

Spoiler: Elementalist (click to show/hide)

https://www.mediafire.com/?z353to5668nd367 (https://www.mediafire.com/?z353to5668nd367)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 04:32:10 pm

I thought Rogues only got Sneak Attack once per target per round. Seems the Official Pathfinder Messageboards say otherwise. At least, the threads I did read into do. If true, the Rogue is much better than what I've heard others claim.

I also remember a thread where people were desperately trying to convince the devs to allow Paladins and Antipaladins to be any-Good/Evil, respectively. As a compromise, we got an Antipaladin archetype that can be any-Evil, but is weaker than a normal Antipaladin.

And Skald is awesome in Pathfinder, but effectiveness requires party co-ordination. A Pathfinder Skald can't really help a party of mages that well compared to a party of martials.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 05:26:24 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 04:32:10 pm

I thought Rogues only got Sneak Attack once per target per round. Seems the Official Pathfinder Messageboards say otherwise. At least, the threads I did read into do. If true, the Rogue is much better than what I've heard others claim.

I also remember a thread where people were desperately trying to convince the devs to allow Paladins and Antipaladins to be any-Good/Evil, respectively. As a compromise, we got an Antipaladin archetype that can be any-Evil, but is weaker than a normal Antipaladin.

And Skald is awesome in Pathfinder, but effectiveness requires party co-ordination. A Pathfinder Skald can't really help a party of mages that well compared to a party of martials.

Skalds are aimed for melee in 4e. The one I had ran around with a spear and used the reach effect to keep herself distanced from the others but still buff her allies.

I'm not big on a lot of pathfinder classes because you're either broken as hell and stay that way or you're a wiffle bat that can't do anything to save his life. Thats my kineticist and my ranger right there

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 05:52:51 pm

Yeah, in Pathfinder Sneak Attack applies to every attack roll that qualifies for its prerequisites. That means if you have 1 extra attack per round from TWF, you get to deal all those extra d6 sneak attack dice on that extra hit. This is why TWF on a Rogue can be a viable strategy. The downside is that Rogues suffer from lower BAB from the outset, and then you stack penalties on top of this for using TWF. All those extra d6 don't mean a thing if you can't beat the target's AC. Plus this requires a full attack, meaning you're left standing in melee range of the enemy afterwards. That's another major reason why investment into AC on a Rogue isn't meaningless. Whilst still important that you aim for bonuses such as Concealment, if you want to use a Full Attack you're going to be finishing within melee range, and on the enemy's turn they can take a Full Attack against you too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 06:17:09 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 05:52:51 pm

Yeah, in Pathfinder Sneak Attack applies to every attack roll that qualifies for its prerequisites. That means if you have 1 extra attack per round from TWF, you get to deal all those extra d6 sneak attack dice on that extra hit. This is why TWF on a Rogue can be a viable strategy. The downside is that Rogues suffer from lower BAB from the outset, and then you stack penalties on top of this for using TWF. All those extra d6 don't mean a thing if you can't beat the target's AC. Plus this requires a full attack, meaning you're left standing in melee range of the enemy afterwards. That's another major reason why investment into AC on a Rogue isn't meaningless. Whilst still important that you aim for bonuses such as Concealment, if you want to use a Full Attack you're going to be finishing within melee range, and on the enemy's turn they can take a Full Attack against you too.

Two words:

Truestrike enchantments. The most broken enchantment in the game which is apparently how I'm supposed to target something with 40+ AC without aiming for touch...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 06:23:05 pm

Truestrike would be something like a +5 enchantment at the least, if such a thing existed.

What level are you fighting AC40 creatures at?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 15, 2016, 06:29:50 pm

I think he means in the minmaxed game with the evil doppelgängers and such?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 15, 2016, 06:59:13 pm

Truestrike enchantments are explicitly written into the rules as something the DM should NOT allow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 07:36:51 pm

Nah, it's fine. If True Strike is being added to a weapon attack, per the Magic Items creation rules, the effect costs the bonus squared times 2,000 gp. Thus a constant True Strike enchantment would cost 800,000 gp and take 800 days to add.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 15, 2016, 07:55:52 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on February 15, 2016, 02:51:30 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 09:39:51 am

As for the two weapon thing, rogues can dual weild and get two sneak attacks off, can't they? I read in a rogue build somewhere that it was the most viable option because it's hard to do an archer rogue and get sneak attack off in pathfinder (whereas in 4e and 5e, you get sneak attacks almost every time you attack. It's nuts).

Looking at the SRD's for 3.5 and Pathfinder, it seems like like you actually can get sneak attack with every hit. That seems weird to me, since in 4e and 5e you can only do it once a round (well, 4e is limited to once a round, 5e is once a turn, so you could technically get off another sneak attack on an opportunity attack, but those are a lot more rare in 5e since they're basically only when someone tries to move out of your reach, or something like a Battlemaster Fighter maneuver that lets you attack on someone else's turn). But, then, as highmax mentioned, you usually will get to use sneak attack every round in those games, since sneak attack has no limits on targets and your attack modifier is going to be pretty much the same as everyone else so long as you're all maxing your relevant ability scores.

Also, the whole, "is a Rogue getting to use DEX for damage overpowered?" thing seems weird from the 4e/5e perspective, since in those games a Rogue uses DEX for attack and damage by default (in 4e because those are what its powers use, and in 5e because they can only use finesse and ranged weapons for sneak attack, both of which use DEX for attack and damage by default). It's possible there might be some combinations from that that might be broken in 3.5/Pathfinder that I don't know about, but, as has been said, sneak attack does more damage than you get from Ability bonus, and 3.5/Pathfinder have higher damage ceilings than 4e/5e, so I don't really understand what the big fuss is about.

One of the main problems, in 3.5 especially, is that there are a shitload of enemy types that don't take sneak attack damage. So you have a much higher theoretical damage cap than you will in practice in 95% of campaigns. DEX to damage would give a 3.5 Rogue good sustained DPS in some ideal situation where they can sneak attack every round, but the reality is that it would just bring them on par with (or a bit below) martial combatants, since in all likelihood you won't always be able to sneak attack, with the added joy of precision-immune enemies.

Gods help the player that rolled up a combat-oriented Rogue and found out too late that the DM made an undead-heavy campaign.

That's part of why I liked the Rogue/Swashbuckler thing so much: it gave you a lot of the fun skillmonkey stuff that the Rogue gets, the theoretical potential to do that sneak attack damage, and all the nice combat tricks that the Swashbuckler gets added on top, including some extra damage and survivability. It's also a really fun flavor to play as a CG/NG type.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 15, 2016, 08:13:01 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 07:36:51 pm

Nah, it's fine. If True Strike is being added to a weapon attack, per the Magic Items creation rules, the effect costs the bonus squared times 2,000 gp. Thus a constant True Strike enchantment would cost 800,000 gp and take 800 days to add.

Enchantment for true strike blade is actually Cheap. My headband of vast intelligence was more expensive

He told me the rules for that was rediculous, especially because it involved the fact a level 1 spell, which for the rules of pathfinder state that for a permanent enchantment, you have to pay for the cost of he spell level times something, and that something is literally sustaining the spell for an hour's length.

Four rules lawyers told me this and all of them exploit it. It's the most broken thing ever and I avoid using it.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 06:23:05 pm

Truestrike would be something like a +5 enchantment at the least, if such a thing existed.

What level are you fighting AC40 creatures at?

Again, +1 enchantment because it's effectively using a permanent level 1 spell effect on a weapon. It's because of the level 1 spell effect is why the enchantment is so cheap. I think the same works for a permanent gravity bow effect, which just increases the damage dice as if it was from a size large weapon.

And the enemies we're fighting are scales to a broken as fuck guy because he keeps insta-killing everyone. Enemies included a level 13 Orc berserker (at level 6, where I had to fight him 1v1), a dracolich and two enemies that are level 20 summoners who are min-maxed to shit, to the point that I can't even hurt them because one of them has a mini-kraken who takes all the damage I do to his master

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 15, 2016, 08:31:32 pm

A continuous spell effect on an item, as per magic item creation rules, which are banned at most sensible tables, is Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp, with an additional special multiplier dependent on the duration of the spell used.

With a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

As True Strike is instantaneous, and is consumed upon the next attack, it is not valid using these rules. You could give it charges per day though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2016, 08:33:02 pm

The rules for magic item creation are just a guideline, and recommend you match the price with an existing item. In this case, the price would be for a +20 bonus to hit, not for a continuous level 1 spell. The D&D website actually addressed this specific question in a GM guide series by Skip Williams called Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a):

Quote

Use the Correct Formula: One item people frequently ask me about is a ring oftrue strike. The spell provides a whopping +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and negates miss chances arising from concealed targets. It's only 1st level, however, because it is a personal range spell with a duration of 1 round. That means you can normally manage one attack every 2 rounds when using the spell. Also, you can't bestow it on an ally (except for a familiar or animal companion) because of its personal range.

Assuming such a ring worked whenever it was needed and has a caster level of 1st, it would cost a mere 2,000 gp by the formula for a use-activated spell effect (in this case, 1 x 1 x 2,000 gp). Sharp-eyed readers will note that any continuously functioning item has a cost adjustment of x4 (see the footnotes to Table 7-33), which bumps up the ring's cost to 8,000 gp. That's a real bargain for an item that provides so much boost to a user's combat power. Much too great a bargain.

So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring.

Would you pay 400,000 gp for a ring of true striking? I would if I could afford it. At a price of 400,000 gp, our mythical ring of true strike is something only an epic-level character could afford. That's fine, because epic play is where the ring belongs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 16, 2016, 12:50:41 am

Again, pathfinder rules breaks everything about D&D, where everything is broken as shit. And since it's a weapon enchantment, not a gear enchantment, it can potentially make it so you can't do more to it. That's the only downside, and some GMs allow you to have multiple enchantments on weapons (my GM made a terrible mistake with allowing that...)

Still waiting to hear feedback on that elementalist I made, mostly because I know how to play it and how to make it amazing, but I want to hear how other people use it. I need Guinea pigs :P


Oh, and in today's session of D&D, our Druid got shot at with a greatbow when the sentries spotted him scouting. When he got discovered, he flew 15ft above the dwarf bowman and turned into a black bear and dropped from the sky. Roughly 600lbs of raw bear dropped down and crushed that poor dwarf... Oh, and I made a dwarf soldier run the corner as he heard one of his companions screaming, sees me biting his face off, turns around and jumps into an abandoned building through the window to escape me.

I feel accomplished I made a hardened dwarf soldier nope so hard

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 16, 2016, 01:12:52 am

Pathfinders magic item creation rules explicitly state that magic effects that do what weapon and armor modifiers do are outright disavowed and specifically states True Strike as an example of what isn't allowed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 16, 2016, 12:19:15 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 16, 2016, 01:12:52 am

Pathfinders magic item creation rules explicitly state that magic effects that do what weapon and armor modifiers do are outright disavowed and specifically states True Strike as an example of what isn't allowed.

Can you do me a massive favor and bring up a link to where it says that? I SO want to rub it in my rules lawyer's face.

It means that the ONLY way to deal with those 40+AC enemies is to attack their touch AC. Which sucks ass... I hate my rules lawyer... I'm glad I burned his face off, but I'm sad that 115 fire damage with a blue flame blast when he was at 70hp didn't completely incinerate his body...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 16, 2016, 12:32:44 pm

I'm not totally sure if this is what Neonivek is talking about, but here on the pathfinder SRD they say that you should compare a items abilities to similar items. Specifically calling out truestrike as deserving to cost 200,000. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values) ((Which I guess means they think it's worth a +10 enchantment bonus. I'd personally say +1 to hit is worth more then +1 damage, so maybe that's a bit incorrect, but it does make sense.))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 16, 2016, 01:05:15 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 16, 2016, 12:32:44 pm

I'm not totally sure if this is what Neonivek is talking about, but here on the pathfinder SRD they say that you should compare a items abilities to similar items. Specifically calling out truestrike as deserving to cost 200,000. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values) ((Which I guess means they think it's worth a +10 enchantment bonus. I'd personally say +1 to hit is worth more then +1 damage, so maybe that's a bit incorrect, but it does make sense.))

I think his logic is:

level 1 spell * level 1 cast (because the effect is always +20 regardless of caster level) * 2000gp * 4 (for it being measured in rounds because its effect lasts one round)

So essentially, that adds to: 1*1*2000*4 = 8000gp

Again, VERY cheap enchantment if it works that way, and since my GM doesn't know of this ruling and trusts the rules lawyer (which he never should have), they exploited the fuck out of it.

I'll bring this up to my GM and tell the rules lawyer of his fuck up. I'm so glad I now have this to finally shut down the rules lawyer in that aspect.

As for another thing that he did, was he did something thats like a lycanthrope but its like beast lord or dinosaur lord or something, and he gained the physical stats of a megaraptor, can change limbs at will to that of a megaraptor and back, and because of this, he's almost as tanky as my Kineticist who's minmaxed to shit and he's a summoner (and he has 40AC, but somehow, some way, I killed him).

Can anyone back me up in debunking or validating him doing something like this? Its kinda bullshit, especially since he says all his scores are like 30+ right now because of that

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 16, 2016, 01:15:11 pm

Closest I can find is the Animal Lord Template. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/animal-lord-cr-2) Maybe he also slapped on the Dire and Advanced templates?

Whatever he's doing, it ain't allowed for players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 16, 2016, 01:19:20 pm

From what you've said of this guy he seems less like a rules lawyer and more like just a straight up cheater. So I'd be willing to bet he's wrong about his character, but that's somewhat impossible to prove without knowing what he's actually doing...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: andrea on February 16, 2016, 01:22:06 pm

I think this is  starting to become more of a rule 0 problem...

if the a player proposes a way to get a permanent +20 to hit at a price of 8000, personal judgement should be applied, before even looking at the other rules.(really, it goes against all the price/power scales of any other magic item available. it should be enough to cast doubt even it is not explicitly stated to be impossible.)

same for that unholy combination of megraptor. although aybe that was a reasoned choice based on pary power level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 16, 2016, 10:53:50 pm

He somehow used the animal lord template I think but used a mega raptor for it.

And I wouldn't be surprised if he did cheat. He said he had a ritual that made him one, and he was thinking of using it on me, but I said I don't need that shit. I'm good with my 28 con with gear that becomes a 32 with a solid amount of burn on

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 16, 2016, 11:00:57 pm

I'll look into any ritual rules I can find, but as far as I know, most rituals only last maybe a week at most.

There's one that turns you into a half-fiend for a couple days, but you have to kill a Good outsider of at least your own HD and use its corpse for the ritual. Most rituals also have some hefty DCs and painful punishments for failing.

Edit: Well, it is not an Occult Ritual. I checked 'em. Google isn't being to helpful, either. Either it's from some more obscure splatbook, one of Pathfinder's novels, or some what-if talk on some messageboard somewhere, if not just outright cheating or subversion of rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 16, 2016, 11:02:26 pm

Yeah, that's beyond rules-lawyering. Guy's well into munchkin territory. It's one thing to design a character that operates efficiently and effectively on the crunch level, or even to occasionally exploit a poorly-written rule for a situational advantage, but when a player is deliberately twisting both RAW and RAI in a way which completely wrecks the overall balance of the system the DM needs to put their foot down instead of going along with it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 16, 2016, 11:15:37 pm

I think the GM has issued it a challenge to kill him. He almost did with the dracolich, but Haldor (my kineticist) wasn't having that shit. Apparently I put him so much into overkill with a regular crit that I melted most of the ice on that floor (and we were in a dungeon that was trapped in an iceberg). GM pretty much said that I pissed him off, rather than annoying him like everyone else but the cleric was doing, and the cleric did half his HP in damage with positive energy.

And again, I hated that I pretty much end encounters almost as fast as Saitama. I'm literally the One Punch Man of our party.

I'm trying to think of more shit to call him out on, but the only other thing I can think of is his expotentially damaging gun. He somehow boosted the crit multiplier so high that it does 8^15 damage or something like that. All done with a custom weapon and a buttload of enchantments. He still needs a nat 20 on the die, but he broke that with the occulitist or whatever one that was newly released that has spirit guides. This one he uses has one that makes his roll an instant nat20 and he recharges t every three rounds.

It's a wolf lord or pack lord ability that gives the nat20, but the weapon is sketchy...

I feel like this is some form of myth busters, but it's more like Rules Lawyer Busters or some thing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on February 16, 2016, 11:24:03 pm

This sounds like an Old Yeller situation, where the only solution is to be a man and put him down yourself. With a shotgun.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 16, 2016, 11:25:53 pm

And then enjoy the bashing you get afterwards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 16, 2016, 11:38:52 pm

There are custom weapon creation rules. I can't seem to find them at the moment. Though they shouldn't be allowed in a sensible campaign. ^{I feel like I've said that a few times already.}

But the worst you can get is a 1d2 weapon with a crit range of 18-20 for a x3 crit. Or a range of 19-20 for a x4 crit.

The max you can ever get within the rules is in Mythic, with Mythic Death From Above, at a x6 crit.

There is a Spirit ability for the Medium that allows you to auto-roll a Nat20, but it requires you to use the Trickster Spirit, you need to be level 17, it only functions once a day, and even then, it can only be used on skill checks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 16, 2016, 11:41:23 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 16, 2016, 11:25:53 pm

And then enjoy the bashing you get afterwards.

I HAVE THE ENTIRETY OF BAY12 AT MY SIDE! Who needs a rules lawyer when I have you madmen (and women)?

To be fair, it IS good to have one who isn't "that guy", like my one buddy who's more of our rules checker than rules lawyer. He gets the rules, he understands it 100% and he enforces it when someone tries to break it. Guy called me out saying that a handy haversack in 5e doesn't make the removing an item a bonus action, which delayed me from rampaging and using dwarves as clubs (potion of giant strength FTW).

Also, this is one thing I have to kind of ask because its a matter of rules vs realism vs flair:

I have a really high strength modifier, and my barbarian has claw-like hands. Is it possible to go up to an unsuspecting enemy whos distracted with another ally and go a strength check (or several) to rip his head off if he's still alive? I have 24 strength in 5e and I am currently raging, so I get advantage to strength checks, and he is, again not expecting me to show up as he's more worried about the orbital strike bear

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 16, 2016, 11:38:52 pm

There are custom weapon creation rules. I can't seem to find them at the moment. Though they shouldn't be allowed in a sensible campaign. ^{I feel like I've said that a few times already.}

But the worst you can get is a 1d2 weapon with a crit range of 18-20 for a x3 crit. Or a range of 19-20 for a x4 crit.

The max you can ever get within the rules is in Mythic, with Mythic Death From Above, at a x6 crit.

There is a Spirit ability for the Medium that allows you to auto-roll a Nat20, but it requires you to use the Trickster Spirit, you need to be level 17, it only functions once a day, and even then, it can only be used on skill checks.

The medium was from a wolf-lord or pack lord or something. There's a page on the SRD that had it, but I don't have it on hand right now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 16, 2016, 11:45:04 pm

Probably check with the GM. I think if it's not in the rules but could conceivably done it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission (aka "i rip his head off. btw is that a thing i can do" instead of "hey is it possible to rip people's heads off? not asking for right now but just in case")

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 16, 2016, 11:46:40 pm

In 5E? I'd let you do it if you could kill him in one round of attacks. (IE: Have you do all your attacks, if it kills them, then sure, flavor it as as ripping his head off.) I wouldn't allow you to just do it with a strength check. I'd give you advantage on your attacks (and probably take away his dex bonus to ac) since he's unaware of you, but I don't think anything past that.

Edit: It's certainly GM dependent though, but the ability to insta kill someone because you surprise them is a dangerous thing to introduce to a game, not to mention it really tramples over the rogue assassin archetype. ((Consider that they have to spend 17 levels to get a level of deadliness in this situation that is less then what you want for free.))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 16, 2016, 11:57:13 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 16, 2016, 11:46:40 pm

In 5E? I'd let you do it if you could kill him in one round of attacks. (IE: Have you do all your attacks, if it kills them, then sure, flavor it as as ripping his head off.) I wouldn't allow you to just do it with a strength check. I'd give you advantage on your attacks (and probably take away his dex bonus to ac) since he's unaware of you, but I don't think anything past that.

I have a +11 to damage right now, and I use a greataxe. I've dropped dropped most enemies thus far with my teeth being a longtooth shifter, and even successfully made a hardened dwarf soldier walk up a corner, look at me mauling his buddy with my teeth, immediatley turn right around and walk the other way. The other soldier watched me bite the guy through a window and pull him out and heard the screaming, walked up to me and because my DM knows they have never seen a shifter (or a werewolf, which I said with the flavor and the fact of backstory, I'm a pure-blooded werewolf that was cured of his disease, so I am considered a shifter) and I proceeded to make that one try and stab at me but he missed and proceeded to vomit. When I screamed at him, he ran away, and the other dwarf who noped, jumped into the building, smashed through the door and bumped into said fleeing dwarf who was running from me and then shits his pants and passes out.

The one who was awake was wounded slightly by my teeth earlier, we questioned him, gave him food, and kicked him out into the snow to warn the leader of opposing side of the civil war we were on:

The White Fangs were coming for him.

So yes, I essentially made my party the inglorious basterds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 17, 2016, 12:47:48 am

Regarding the decapitation question, I'd rule it as a coup-de-grace attack, usable only in the same situations that you could normally deliver one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 17, 2016, 10:17:47 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 17, 2016, 12:47:48 am

Regarding the decapitation question, I'd rule it as a coup-de-grace attack, usable only in the same situations that you could normally deliver one.

Our rules checker says there is no such thing as that in 5e, but I think he's full of shit

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 17, 2016, 10:20:26 am

5e removed coup de grace.

According to the Google.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 17, 2016, 10:20:55 am

Yeah. There isn't such a thing afaik in 5E.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 17, 2016, 11:15:26 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 17, 2016, 10:20:26 am

5e removed coup de grace.

According to the Google.

Which is sad, because I had so many moments where I could have done so in several spots...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 17, 2016, 02:58:13 pm

However, an attack against an Unconscious or Paralyzed creature has advantage and is a critical if within 5 feet. Against a restrained opponent (e.g. tied up), they just have advantage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on February 19, 2016, 12:39:39 pm

So, my group got a Pathfinder game on Roll20 off the ground last night.

First off, I'm impressed with Roll20. It's actually a far more streamlined experience than playing in person, although that's helped by a few other circumstantial things like most of our players being experienced. The only issue was that it seemed to be willing to just roll over and accept its fate if the streams failed to connect on the first try, which eventually led to us switching to the Google Hangouts plugin, which worked perfectly.

Second, the session was awesome and hilarious. We knew we were going to be fighting mites, and probably at least one swarm pet, but the wizard assured the rest of the party that he could handle any swarms. Everyone took him at his word, since none of us had reason to doubt it.

We entered the room, and things started out pretty well. The mites got the jump on us, but the two darts they threw/shot at us didn't deal any damage. The paladin and I then shish-kebabbed one each, between a very good roll from the paladin and my ranged attack bonus, the sorceror stunned the other two, and the wizard moved to intercept where he thought the swarm would come from.

Then the swarm emerged and reduced him to one hitpoint in its first round. He tried to burning hands them, and... rolled a one.

Shenanigans ensued, as the sorceror tried to use colour spray on the swarm (not the player, the character :P), the wizard dropped below 0 and barely stabilised while the sorceror dragged him towards the door, and eventually my character ended up saving the day by driving the swarm back with a torch and following it up with a flask of some kind of alchemical fire brought in when we called for help.

Mainly, I find it funny 'cause my character is literally just some guy. He works a day job as a bowyer and takes shifts in the town guard sometimes. Meanwhile, the wizard is all mysterious and finely-dressed, the sorceror is all dark and edgy and finely-dressed, and the paladin is some kind of religious fanatic warrior.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 19, 2016, 01:17:24 pm

Quote from: Arx on February 19, 2016, 12:39:39 pm

So, my group got a Pathfinder game on Roll20 off the ground last night.

First off, I'm impressed with Roll20. It's actually a far more streamlined experience than playing in person, although that's helped by a few other circumstantial things like most of our players being experienced. The only issue was that it seemed to be willing to just roll over and accept its fate if the streams failed to connect on the first try, which eventually led to us switching to the Google Hangouts plugin, which worked perfectly.

Second, the session was awesome and hilarious. We knew we were going to be fighting mites, and probably at least one swarm pet, but the wizard assured the rest of the party that he could handle any swarms. Everyone took him at his word, since none of us had reason to doubt it.

We entered the room, and things started out pretty well. The mites got the jump on us, but the two darts they threw/shot at us didn't deal any damage. The paladin and I then shish-kebabbed one each, between a very good roll from the paladin and my ranged attack bonus, the sorceror stunned the other two, and the wizard moved to intercept where he thought the swarm would come from.

Then the swarm emerged and reduced him to one hitpoint in its first round. He tried to burning hands them, and... rolled a one.

Shenanigans ensued, as the sorceror tried to use colour spray on the swarm (not the player, the character :P), the wizard dropped below 0 and barely stabilised while the sorceror dragged him towards the door, and eventually my character ended up saving the day by driving the swarm back with a torch and following it up with a flask of some kind of alchemical fire brought in when we called for help.

Mainly, I find it funny 'cause my character is literally just some guy. He works a day job as a bowyer and takes shifts in the town guard sometimes. Meanwhile, the wizard is all mysterious and finely-dressed, the sorceror is all dark and edgy and finely-dressed, and the paladin is some kind of religious fanatic warrior.

Its always the simple looking guys who you have to worry about.

Its why my kineticist was dressed in the equivalent of a soldier's garb with some chainmail under it; he looks like some average dude carrying a shotgun, which, to most people, he looks boring as fuck. And then he starts taking burn and turns super sayain while setting everything on fire. His brother (my previous character before he died) was a ranger who looked like a barbarian, fought like one, acted like one but still was a ranger. It was hilarious because of his favored terrain plus his awesome fortitude, he walked in arctic climates in just his regular gear and wandered around going "Boy, its just like summer, eh?" and he didn't even wear cold weather clothing but resisted the freezing cold

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on February 19, 2016, 02:22:36 pm

Whenever I actually get connected to a game, I've been considering running a character who's basically just a redshirt mass-infantry soldier with a pike and plain gear, only experienced enough to reach player-levels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 19, 2016, 02:53:42 pm

Quote from: Amperzand on February 19, 2016, 02:22:36 pm

Whenever I actually get connected to a game, I've been considering running a character who's basically just a redshirt mass-infantry soldier with a pike and plain gear, only experienced enough to reach player-levels.

They're the best kind of characters because they'll be fighting a dragon or something terrifying and they just sit there like "man... This isn't what I expected to be doing..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on February 19, 2016, 02:55:54 pm

"Gods dammit I was trying to retire!"

And of course it lets me be obnoxious levels of pragmatic, which is fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 19, 2016, 11:35:13 pm

I had a cohort who became my main character for a few sessions, a sneaky knife-throwing rogue assassin who got shanghied into the good side by our party.

But then the party started swinging evil, and he lost a couple of HD due to... dying.  With less than a dozen max HP in a level 13-ish game, he politely excused himself.  Via note.  After vanishing in a puff of smoke and running the hell away to retire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 19, 2016, 11:58:31 pm

Session got canceled again...

At this rate, we're never going to continue the story of Haldor the Aasimar kineticist who skateboards on Oro the dead Kitsune turned statue

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 19, 2016, 11:59:55 pm

what

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 12:02:07 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 19, 2016, 11:59:55 pm

what

Pathfinder, ladies and gentlemen, where nothing ever makes sense. Especially the duregar wizard who deliberately acts like a stereotypical black dude and has been fisted or anally penetrated by about 5 or more different things, including an elephant's trunk, a robot, and a dracolich horn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 20, 2016, 12:06:46 am

Aasimar Kineticist? You using a variant heritage, or one of the mental-based archetypes? Base Aasi don't make for a great Con-based-blaster.

Though I can't say that using a flesh-to-stone sufferer as a portable skateboard is the weirdest thing I've heard. Some people would do that to Kitsune solely because they are Kitsune-fur-bait.

That Duergar is more fucked than normal ones. Normally I see them played as fatter Drow, rather than the more accurate overly-edgy Dwarves. Or the sexually deviant gangsta, in this case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 09:41:34 am

He doesn't enjoy it, to say the least.

And he was killed and then he had flesh to stone cast on him as part of a ritual. I don't know why, but that made it so I can't incinerate his body.

And I did go a variant heritage, because again, this was a min-maxed character. And I hate him. He's boring, he's too strong to have fun battling his enemies, and his personality so far revolves around him being possessed (though possession isn't the right term, because any spells or things that remove that can't remove him, so I guess it's a form of magical insanity?) and everyone saying "don't listen to him, he's fucked up." So I never get to say anything. And the worst part is its only the rules lawyer and his girlfriend who start with that shit and everyone else just kind of piles on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 20, 2016, 11:32:06 am

One day I am going to make my squad based 5e game.

Basically instead of having a character you control a squad that you hire.

You then pit them up against monsters and try to eek out victories.

This is pretty much only possible in 4e and 5e... but the most fun in 5e

---

Sigh... I need more dnd friends I can discuss dnd with and consult on DMing matters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 01:41:05 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 20, 2016, 11:32:06 am

One day I am going to make my squad based 5e game.

Basically instead of having a character you control a squad that you hire.

You then pit them up against monsters and try to eek out victories.

This is pretty much only possible in 4e and 5e... but the most fun in 5e

---

Sigh... I need more dnd friends I can discuss dnd with and consult on DMing matters.

I know it would be virtually impossible on bay12, but I would love to play a game like that

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 20, 2016, 02:19:54 pm

It would flat out NEED a lot of work to get off the ground and for additional assets to be made.

For example a Shield Bearer whose ability is that they protect units behind them from AoE.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 05:35:20 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 20, 2016, 02:19:54 pm

It would flat out NEED a lot of work to get off the ground and for additional assets to be made.

For example a Shield Bearer whose ability is that they protect units behind them from AoE.

Isn't that what Shield Master does? Or is it just for them?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 20, 2016, 05:40:58 pm

I think it's a Shield Master for other party members.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 05:44:32 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 20, 2016, 05:40:58 pm

I think it's a Shield Master for other party members.

I mean the feat in 5e

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 20, 2016, 05:47:05 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 05:44:32 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 20, 2016, 05:40:58 pm

I think it's a Shield Master for other party members.

I mean the feat in 5e

No, the effect you are thinking of is that they can use a reaction to take no damage if they succeed in a dexterity saving throw versus "half damage"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 20, 2016, 05:49:43 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 05:44:32 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 20, 2016, 05:40:58 pm

I think it's a Shield Master for other party members.

I mean the feat in 5e

I know. I understood his intention to be a character who could apply that effect, or something similar to other party members.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 06:12:37 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 20, 2016, 05:49:43 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 05:44:32 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 20, 2016, 05:40:58 pm

I think it's a Shield Master for other party members.

I mean the feat in 5e

I know. I understood his intention to be a character who could apply that effect, or something similar to other party members.

I think a slight overhaul or additions to feats would work. Shield master could add that effect for example

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 20, 2016, 10:55:38 pm

Two people didn't show for today's session. Including the DM. He didn't let anyone know until about five minutes before the session was supposed to start.

So we started a new campaign. Again. Hell's Rebels. Not spoiling anything. Four of us, thirty point buy.

We have a Half-Elf Arcanist, whose background is that of a court advisor, who dreams of building his own Deity so that he may worship it, and is feeling very useless as a level one spellcaster.

We have a Human Swashbuckler, from a noble house.

We have a Lizardfolk Cleric, with the Strength and Destruction domains, whose deity's favoured weapon is a greatsword, though the lizard is much more effective with his natural bite and claws.

I am a Strix Unchained Monk. I wanted to be a Ninja, but Strix have a Charisma penalty. I've looked into some of the UC Monk's abilities, and some are actually weaker than the Core Monk's.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 11:46:10 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 20, 2016, 10:55:38 pm

Two people didn't show for today's session. Including the DM. He didn't let anyone know until about five minutes before the session was supposed to start.

So we started a new campaign. Again. Hell's Rebels. Not spoiling anything. Four of us, thirty point buy.

We have a Half-Elf Arcanist, whose background is that of a court advisor, who dreams of building his own Deity so that he may worship it, and is feeling very useless as a level one spellcaster.

We have a Human Swashbuckler, from a noble house.

We have a Lizardfolk Cleric, with the Strength and Destruction domains, whose deity's favoured weapon is a greatsword, though the lizard is much more effective with his natural bite and claws.

I am a Strix Unchained Monk. I wanted to be a Ninja, but Strix have a Charisma penalty. I've looked into some of the UC Monk's abilities, and some are actually weaker than the Core Monk's.

This sounds like a weird party... Remind me what Strix are?

I want to bring up the question to kind of start a discussion:

What was the most interesting character you made plot-wise or RP wise? What was your strongest/most overpowered character? How are they different or if they're the same guy, what made them stand out?

My most interesting character seems to be Olon Rotlaw, and people who played in my 4e game might remember his name. He wasn't exactly overpowered, but he was REALLY good at what he did. He was a 4e human artificer who was Neutral Evil and was a demon worshiper. What made him interesting was he tinkered a lot with random garbage, going as far as, pretty much, rebuilding a destroyed warforged and reviving him twice, both times resulting him getting punched in the face (second time infected Olon with a spellscar because he was using magic, reawakened him, activating the warforged's spell scar, and getting punched in the face from 10ft away). He, however, could craft gear that was 7 levels higher than his current level, meaning he could make gear from the next tier, provided he had the funds to make it. And he did make one item that was level 13 (we were level 8 at this time) for some vampire kid he wasn't fond of to protect him from the sun, but due to him trying to hide his intentions, he did it. He actually became a villain when he got ejected from the party for killing an innocent man who almost ratted him out for being a demon worshiper. He then killed the party's monk/leader's boyfriend and then escaped without anyone knowing it was him (this pissed off the leader, who thought she would recognize me in the crowd as shes trying to snipe me, but lucky for me, she didn't know what I looked like under my black cloak).

Now my most overpowered character is Haldor Ragnar, who is the seventh son in a family of nine brothers. His younger brother died without him knowing, and then on his youngest brother's (my ranger) quest, he found out this information, and then his youngest brother died fighting his brother's killer. Because he doesn't want to lose any more of his brothers, he stepped forward and fights with the party. He felt estranged because he was an aasimar born into a family of humans, and he ended up leaving them for many reasons (he wasn't built to be a soldier in the army, he didn't feel like he fit in a family of warriors stuck to old traditions, etc). He's a pyrokineticist, and because his aasimar trait is he doesn't sweat and he gets nourishment from food through sunlight, hes been living most of his life in what is the equivalent of Arabia, where he practiced using his abilities a lot to impress people. He eventually got "magically possessed" (actual possession rules don't apply, so it acts more like insanity) by a dwarf named Visilie Kroznov, who showed him what happens when men try to dabble too deep into hybridizing magic and tech. He learned the secrets of immortality, though he cannot decipher it, and he ended up killing a party member's "father" while possessed (I wouldn't tell the party it was willing, even though it fully was) where he pulls off the same scene from Black Ops 1 where he shoots the guy in the head and screams the guy possessing him's name while my guy sees Kroznov shooting him in the face.

They're different because one is a crafter and an evil manipulator and the other is a duty driven, slightly insane, lazy ass who's only motivation is to make sure the world doesn't get destroyed

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 21, 2016, 12:11:33 am

Our game had its first PC death last session.

The party was keeping watch for our friendly neighbourhood NPC tribe when it was attacked in the night by a fiendish dire tiger. The monk goes racing off into the dark to try and find it first, followed swiftly by the party rogue. Monk gets mauled for more than half their health in the first round, backs off and starts begging for heals. The rogue thinks it's a good time to go in for the attack.

One grapple and a few rake attacks later, and we have one dead rogue. It's not a big deal, since we're around level 10 and the average loot per encounter is enough to cover a Raise Dead spell. Unfortunately the DM's been stingy with loot recently, and we've had three sessions in a row without any treasure, despite having combat every session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 21, 2016, 01:06:36 am

Quote from: highmax28 on February 20, 2016, 11:46:10 pm

This sounds like a weird party... Remind me what Strix are?

Raven-like people. The original description when I first heard of them was of an unusually small bird-like people, only growing to a height of six feet and typically weighing a light 200 pounds, with an massive wingspan of 12 feet. The description has since been corrected a bit, but the wingspan is still too small. Though if they meant 12 feet per wing, it would be more accurate.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/f/f0/Strix.jpg/250px-Strix.jpg)

Can't say any of my characters have been too memorable or powerful. Except my current mythic/gestalt character, but that's just cheating. I also had a Dhampir Oracle who was notable, because the Juju Mystery makes for great necromancers, and because he is the only character I have made that actually had a backstory.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 21, 2016, 03:07:15 am

My 'best' character was a second ed fighter by the fairly basic moniker of 'Sir Renault'.  I was pretty young (just 13) when I got into my first 'real' roleplaying group, the other guys were college age and the DM (who was a medieval history buff) had some very impressive house rules for combat.  He told me that I could make my fighter a specialist in anything I wanted, bows, shields, axes, whatever.  I chose full plate.  Renault was about three levels lower than the rest of the party at 12 (I jumped in mid-campaign.) He was, simply put, a monster.

This is somewhat abridged as the events took three 4-6 hour sessions:

The very first thing I did as part of the group was help rescue the abducted ten-year old princess of the kingdom we used as our home base.  The girl (Mirelle) had been kidnapped by an evil cult, who were casting a spell to cause the downfall of the kingdom, and required her as a sacrifice.  We got wrecked in the first big encounter.  Our mage was knocked out of the fight almost immediately, the paladin had to carry him back to the city for medical aid.  Our cleric had an arm lopped off and had to use most of his healing to stop the bleeding.  Our thief had his main arm broken, and lost his dagger.  Only I could still fight, and the clock was ticking.  I had to stealth my way through three levels of underground temple, there were guards everywhere, I lost track of how many rolls I had to make, but finally we made it to the antechamber to the altar room.  Here was the cultists' best fighter and several more cult members, we charged, the cleric went down, the thief and I got through the door (and while we as players knew that the paladin and the mage were just a few moments behind, our characters were convinced that we had but seconds to save the girl) I saw the leader of the cultists raise his dagger and I did the only thing I could think of, I threw my body across the girl and took the hit.  At this point the paladin and the mage arrived on scene and cleaned house.

I stayed with that group for around a year, Sir Renault had some pretty awesome adventures (even fought an ancient red dragon to a standstill) and eventually retired from the campaign as the king of the realm we worked from (it's been almost two decades, some details escape me now.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 21, 2016, 03:11:59 am

stupid doublepost.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 22, 2016, 02:33:24 am

Pathfinder Monk's bonus feats are kind of limited, I think. It's archetypes are generally better with the changes they make to the feats, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 22, 2016, 06:07:24 am

Eh, in my book the choice between straight monk vs. archetype is kind of like the choice between a turd burger or a shit sandwich.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 22, 2016, 10:20:51 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 22, 2016, 06:07:24 am

Eh, in my book the choice between straight monk vs. archetype is kind of like the choice between a turd burger or a shit sandwich.

Monk is one of the best classes if you know what you're doing. There's a fighting style feat for them that allows them to counter attack before the opponent gets a hit in, and it's kinda broken...

Last nights session involved my Longtooth shifter barbarian, who was raging and had just took a swing of a giant strength potion, charging a door so hard that he busted a dwarf's arm because he planted his shield and forgot that the door could move, picking up said dwarf while he was prone, throwing him 60ft into the air as I roll a double crit (rage gives advantage to all strength checks) and threw him into another dwarf who was on a tower 45ft up, hitting said dwarf in tower and knocking them both off the tower and killing both.

He then continued his rampage as he sees two dwarves standing over his unconcious allies' body and one of them plants his shield in the ground, and I just move to an opening, picked up said dwarf and used him as a bludgeoning weapon against the dwarves' leader, who was a huge dwarf woman named Orta who was also a barbarian. The impact knocked her unconcious and because I was so strong, I caused his arm to be left behind with the shield he planted into the ground.

I got my buddy back up, and we healed the armless dwarf, who was still in shock he was missing an arm.

Because we knew Orta was strong and we didn't have any chains and only rope, we had to strip her of her belongings (knives, weapons, etc), hog tie her up to the point that my DM made a joke about her being ready for bondage sex, and the Druid starts to dig a hole using mould earth, which took a long time, but he then threw Orta into the hole but kept her head up and buried her up to her neck. and my buddy who tied her up decided that when we stripped her of her belongings, she was naked...

As you can see, this is starting to sound terrible. So she wakes up after we loot the place and, because she's a barbarian, she starts screaming like a madman while shouting curses like Yosammitisam (or however you spell his name (the redhead in loony tunes)). I then started to shout at her to shut up, but she didn't listen, and then the party rogue shows up and starts screaming, sounding like Orta, just to join in on the screaming match.

After about 20 minutes of shouting, she finally shuts up, and we try to question her. Sadly, we couldn't get any information out of her and she started making comments about skinning my character, so because we needed to move her, we proceeded to mic k her in the head over and over until she was unconcious, which took a long time as my DM said.

We moved her and buried her inside the building (dirt floor) and covered her mouth as we took a long rest, and then finally the dwarf wth one arm realizes he lost his arm (shock is over) and he starts crying, where the party Druid starts to pat his head and go "shhhhhh.... It's ok... It gets better..." And the way he said it made my DM drop everything, look at us and go "you're a party of psychopaths..."

After some chatter and house ruling, we decided greater restoration restores one limb at a time and he cast it using his magical gear to cause the dwarf to get his arm back.

In short: I threw a dwarf, beat another with another dwarf, buried a dwarf leader, tore a guy's arm off, and the party Druid, the fighter, and my barbarian are called psychopaths by our DM

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 22, 2016, 05:06:33 pm

Spoiler: Nobody tosses a dwarf! (click to show/hide)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/mrhipp/GIMLI.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 22, 2016, 05:08:47 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 22, 2016, 05:06:33 pm

Spoiler: Nobody tosses a dwarf! (click to show/hide)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/mrhipp/GIMLI.png)

I am proud to be associated with this now

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 22, 2016, 07:11:53 pm

@highmax:Yosemite Sam.  Like the place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 24, 2016, 05:47:09 pm

Quote from: Gunner-Chan on February 24, 2016, 05:33:05 pm

Doing my part for linking good shit.

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/paizo-pathfinder-bundle

Like 15 dollars for a LOT of pathfinder stuff. A dollar something more if you want the other teir too. The pathfinder core book by itself is worth more than the total cost of this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 24, 2016, 05:48:40 pm

Is there anything in the books, besides the adventures, that you can't get online?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 24, 2016, 05:50:18 pm

I have no idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 24, 2016, 05:56:58 pm

Since they're only giving away PDF files, it's little use to me. I prefer having the physical rulebook at the table, since I try to encourage avoiding too much technology use while gaming. Having people playing with their phones or browsing the net is poor manners.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 24, 2016, 06:07:19 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 24, 2016, 05:56:58 pm

Since they're only giving away PDF files, it's little use to me. I prefer having the physical rulebook at the table, since I try to encourage avoiding too much technology use while gaming. Having people playing with their phones or browsing the net is poor manners.

I agree on this. Plus, when you have to clear up some shit with specific party members (aka buying shit, selling shit, downtime stuff, etc.) it gives the players something to do that still pertains to the game by looking through it, rather than having your laptops open or whatever.

I still prefer to have physical everything, but due to how often my party levels up, and my kineticist's many abilities, its hard to have a physical sheet playing pathfinder sometimes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 24, 2016, 06:09:57 pm

I basically have entire charts on the back of my character sheet so I don't have to go looking through books each time we level.

It helps to plan out your entire leveling progression as well. Makes it easier to go over everything at once without relying on memory, and changes can be made as needed, so long as you haven't reached the changed level yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 24, 2016, 06:15:05 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 24, 2016, 06:09:57 pm

I basically have entire charts on the back of my character sheet so I don't have to go looking through books each time we level.

It helps to plan out your entire leveling progression as well. Makes it easier to go over everything at once without relying on memory, and changes can be made as needed, so long as you haven't reached the changed level yet.

The problem I have with that is Pathfinder, to me, is difficult to do that with because there are SO many abilities to look at. Like the barbarian for example, has rage powers, which prevents me from playing it because there's just so many... Fighter is a similar deal too. There is just so much happening with everyone, I don't evne know where to begin. Throw on top of that the effects of spells and other stuff and you've lost me.

I'm not even joking, it took me a week to make a level 2 wizard, and three weeks to make a level 13 wizard, and he's not even done yet

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 24, 2016, 06:23:09 pm

It helps a bit when the DM limits what is allowed and what is not. Not my preferred way of narrowing choices, mind you.

When I first make a character, they are usually planned out completely from one to twenty. Or less if the adventure doesn't go that far.

That said, feats are a pain in the ass if your build doesn't need many feats. A Kineticist is pretty much done by level three, when they get Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Or just Weapon Finesse, for a Kinetic Blade user.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 24, 2016, 06:47:23 pm

Are they able to use those feats? And I grabbed weapon focus (kinetic blast) as well as toughness (which is mandatory) and improved init since I'm artillery. Because of how stupidly high my init can go when I go into elemental overflow, I tend to just destroy something in the first round.

Except this bullshit encounter I'm stuck in. I can't use my abilities when I'm on a friendly ship because it douses fire instantly... So I gotta hang out on the enemy ship and set everything on fire (which apparently included my rule's lawyer's face)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 24, 2016, 07:05:07 pm

Rays can use Precise and Point-Blank shot feats, so I don't see why not.

And since Strength is definitely not our strong suit, so Weapon Finesse is pretty much mandatory for Bladers who don't use Elemental blasts. Elementals get to cheat by targeting touch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 24, 2016, 07:23:37 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 24, 2016, 07:05:07 pm

Rays can use Precise and Point-Blank shot feats, so I don't see why not.

And since Strength is definitely not our strong suit, so Weapon Finesse is pretty much mandatory for Bladers who don't use Elemental blasts. Elementals get to cheat by targeting touch.

Pyrokineticists also get to target touch. Blue flame blast is the only one that has composite blast damage that still targets touch AC.

Its how I'm able to fight enemies with 40+ AC. And do kinetic blasts count as a ray attack?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 24, 2016, 08:28:52 pm

Kinetic Blast (Sp)

At 1st level, a kineticist gains a kinetic blast wild talent of her choice. This kinetic blast must be a simple blast that matches her element.

As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet. She must have at least one hand free to aim the blast (or one prehensile appendage, if she doesn't have hands). All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion), and she can't use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts. Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms). A readied kinetic blast can be used to counterspell any spell of equal or lower level that shares its descriptor. A kinetic blast that deals energy damage of any type (including force) has the corresponding descriptor.

Seems that's a no to being a ray attack. Instead, it would require Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast) etc. Alchemist Bombs share the same restriction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 24, 2016, 10:27:22 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 24, 2016, 08:28:52 pm

Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion), and she can't use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts.

This is the part I was referring to. I'm not that great at wording my thoughts sometimes.

I meant that Kinetic Blasts are like rays in that they are considered weapon types for the purpose of feats. Albeit, more limited than physical weapons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 24, 2016, 10:52:17 pm

Yeah, it limits the uses to which you can put your Kinetic Blast. For example, you couldn't pair it with Dazzling Display because you need to be wielding your weapon, and a kineticist is never considered to be wielding their Kinetic Blast. You could probably pair it with False Opening though, which would be decent for lowering the touch AC of an enemy by denying them their Dex bonus. Of course that requires you have a high enough AC or other source of defense to reliably eat an attack of opportunity and have the enemy miss. Honestly you're probably better off just taking more Toughness feats instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on February 25, 2016, 03:28:33 pm

The adventures of Launce Aroys, ordinary guy extraordinaire, continue. After the surveyor and wizard for kicked out of the suspected smuggler's shop, I struck up a conversation with the guards (I was posing as hired muscle at the time) and managed to work out that he was a slaver.

That was about the most successful anyone was the whole session though, as we then discovered the best climb modifier in the party to be -1, and put six arrows into a lemure in the span of about ten seconds for a total of one damage. We didn't realise it was there, since we assumed the wizard's familiar had just flown into a window.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 03:36:39 pm

Quote from: Arx on February 25, 2016, 03:28:33 pm

The adventures of Launce Aroys, ordinary guy extraordinaire, continue. After the surveyor and wizard for kicked out of the suspected smuggler's shop, I struck up a conversation with the guards (I was posing as hired muscle at the time) and managed to work out that he was a slaver.

That was about the most successful anyone was the whole session though, as we then discovered the best climb modifier in the party to be -1, and put six arrows into a lemure in the span of about ten seconds for a total of one damage. We didn't realise it was there, since we assumed the wizard's familiar had just flown into a window.

This so chaotic confusing that I wish I was there to witness it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 25, 2016, 08:46:46 pm

Heh, I'm checking out the new Blood of Shadows splatbook for Pathfinder. They finally added Extra Ninja Trick so that rules lawyers will stop hassling Ninjas because they technically can't take Rogue feats, despite being an Advanced Rogue Archetype.

Got some other neat stuff as well. Mostly aimed at Drow, Half-Elves, and two races from the Plane of Shadows.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 09:10:26 pm

Got a quick question for some of you guys, and this is something that I talk to a few people about in RL, but not much elsewhere.

What are you looking forward to/expecting in 5e?

I'm waiting until they release more races from 4e like Revenant, Goliath, Mul, and others

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 25, 2016, 09:29:56 pm

I'm looking forward to a revamped Ranger and more monsters.

They already have Goliaths. They were released in the Elemental Evil supplement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arcvasti on February 25, 2016, 09:44:10 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 09:10:26 pm

Got a quick question for some of you guys, and this is something that I talk to a few people about in RL, but not much elsewhere.

What are you looking forward to/expecting in 5e?

I'm waiting until they release more races from 4e like Revenant, Goliath, Mul, and others

5e is pretty neat right now, but there's kind of a dearth of monsters[In the Monster Manual, at least]. More of those would kind of be nice. I also kinda want more build path things for classes. Like, there are only two Sorcerous Origin options right now, for one. More options there is always fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 25, 2016, 09:53:55 pm

Agreed.

More origins...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 10:07:09 pm

I think they either need a second PHB to start adding things from the unearthed arcana and the campaigns in, as well as some extras from the DM's handbook and the MM, because I had no iea genesai was a thing, and I only found out about shifters from an unearthed arcana thing someone posted in another 5e game... I love longtooth shifters, and I played a longtooth shifter berserker in 4e, and I'm kinda recreating him with my longtooth shifter barbarian who has sentinel.

Oh, nad that reminds me. Does standing up provoke Sentinel? If it does, does it stop them from standing up?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on February 25, 2016, 11:53:12 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 10:07:09 pm

Oh, nad that reminds me. Does standing up provoke Sentinel? If it does, does it stop them from standing up?

No, though if they tried to move away, that would provoke and opportunity attack, and, if it landed, that would set their speed to 0, preventing them from standing up. A more reliable method of keeping a prone person down is to use your action to grapple them, as this also  sets their speed to 0 (which can also be used as an Attack action, if you have some form of Extra Attack, as can shoving someone prone, so with a good Athletics score you can pretty reliably have someone prone and and unable to get up or move at all with a single round of effort.)


As for the original question, what I'm most looking forward to in 5e is material for Eberron, hopefully a sourcebook for the setting at least comparable to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Things needed for this are probably some improvement to the Warforged race presented in Unearthed Arcana, definitely a proper implementation of the Artificer class (it doesn't work as a Wizard tradition, and I don't know why they thought it would), and likely some adjustment to the base assumption of magic item distribution.

As for something I'd like that may not ever come to fruition, I'd really like some official Spelljammer support. Even just an Unearthed Arcana somewhere down the road would probably make me pretty happy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 26, 2016, 12:16:26 am

Quote from: Kadzar on February 25, 2016, 11:53:12 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 10:07:09 pm

Oh, nad that reminds me. Does standing up provoke Sentinel? If it does, does it stop them from standing up?

No, though if they tried to move away, that would provoke and opportunity attack, and, if it landed, that would set their speed to 0, preventing them from standing up. A more reliable method of keeping a prone person down is to use your action to grapple them, as this also  sets their speed to 0 (which can also be used as an Attack action, if you have some form of Extra Attack, as can shoving someone prone, so with a good Athletics score you can pretty reliably have someone prone and and unable to get up or move at all with a single round of effort.)


As for the original question, what I'm most looking forward to in 5e is material for Eberron, hopefully a sourcebook for the setting at least comparable to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Things needed for this are probably some improvement to the Warforged race presented in Unearthed Arcana, definitely a proper implementation of the Artificer class (it doesn't work as a Wizard tradition, and I don't know why they thought it would), and likely some adjustment to the base assumption of magic item distribution.

As for something I'd like that may not ever come to fruition, I'd really like some official Spelljammer support. Even just an Unearthed Arcana somewhere down the road would probably make me pretty happy.

I agree on the artificer class. It didn't feel like it fit artificer, at least in the 4e sense, very well

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on February 26, 2016, 01:33:17 am

Quote from: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 03:36:39 pm

Quote from: Arx on February 25, 2016, 03:28:33 pm

The adventures of Launce Aroys, ordinary guy extraordinaire, continue. After the surveyor and wizard for kicked out of the suspected smuggler's shop, I struck up a conversation with the guards (I was posing as hired muscle at the time) and managed to work out that he was a slaver.

That was about the most successful anyone was the whole session though, as we then discovered the best climb modifier in the party to be -1, and put six arrows into a lemure in the span of about ten seconds for a total of one damage. We didn't realise it was there, since we assumed the wizard's familiar had just flown into a window.

This so chaotic confusing that I wish I was there to witness it

It probably doesn't help that it was late when I wrote that up, so it has some significant typos in it. Like calling the sorcerer a surveyor.

But yeah, much of the session was a blur of characters acting on impulse and poor decision making. And shenanigans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 27, 2016, 01:18:30 am

Any recommendations for when you have a bunch of feats/class abilities to choose from, but don't really need or want any?

Some classes just don't need a lot of feats to do their job, and I have no idea what to do with the empty slots. It doesn't help that what feat options there are for Kineticists are sub-optimal.

Not that I have many potential options anyways. This DM bans things very haphazardly. Sometimes doesn't even look into what he bans, just declaring it sounds broken, so it isn't allowed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 27, 2016, 01:29:03 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 27, 2016, 01:18:30 am

Any recommendations for when you have a bunch of feats/class abilities to choose from, but don't really need or want any?

Some classes just don't need a lot of feats to do their job, and I have no idea what to do with the empty slots. It doesn't help that what feat options there are for Kineticists are sub-optimal.

Not that I have many potential options anyways. This DM bans things very haphazardly. Sometimes doesn't even look into what he bans, just declaring it sounds broken, so it isn't allowed.

Bonus wild talent is always an option for kineticist feats. As for other classes, it doesn't hurt to look at endurance/die hard. It NEVER hurts to have that extra turn to live. I could have gotten to use it if it wasn't for a x3 crit insta-killing me on my ranger.

Weapon focus and improved defence feats (iron will, etc.) are good to use for the feat slot if you REALLY don't need them for anything

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 27, 2016, 01:46:09 am

I was thinking of taking Ranger Trap. Nabbing tripwire, and tricking enemies into charging into it. Charging enemies take a -6 on their save against tripwires, so it would make up for my Wis not being maxed out, and for Learn Ranger Trap giving non-rangers a -2 to the DC.

Or take Animal Ally or Leadership or something just to annoy the DM. He also hates familiars, so Familiar bond is also an option. Not to the extent that another DM I know of hates them, mind you. I've heard some horror stories about that other DM.

Someone buys an item he feels is too powerful? Every enemy now uses Sunder as their only attack method. Familiar or Animal Companion? It dies first, even if it is never actually used in combat. Wizard hides the familiar inside his coat, or some other pocket? Grapple the Wizard, pull the familiar out, then ignore the Wizard for the rest of combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 27, 2016, 01:48:34 am

The DM needs to learn to say "Yes, but." Clearly, he knows how to say no and yes, so that's the next step.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 27, 2016, 02:46:51 am

...Hm. So I put on a cursed ring, just cause.

Turns out I can no longer hold metal. However, my Ring of Sustenance is still on my other hand because I took it off.

This has... Interesting implications as the party's tank. Metal simply passes through my fingers, at least. We ended the session on this. Next week will be, I think, testing of this strange and wondrous property. Good thing I'm a soul blade and my weapons and armor aren't actually metal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 27, 2016, 05:26:53 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 27, 2016, 01:48:34 am

The DM needs to learn to say "Yes, but." Clearly, he knows how to say no and yes, so that's the next step.

Err, which DM?

My current one happens to be the Problem Player/Whizzard I mentioned/complained/greentexted about before. Bans entire books because he doesn't like one minor thing in it, and never looks into what he says is broken.

The Advanced Player's Guide is banned because he doesn't like the Alchemist. The Swashbuckler is banned because he doesn't like their Opportune Parry.

He also doesn't want us using a certain fan site because it sources which book everything comes from. I don't understand the logic of that. Especially since the site he likes doesn't source much, renames everything, has poor organization, and slips in third party stuff without marking it as third party half the time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on February 27, 2016, 06:25:19 am

Quote from: Gentlefish on February 27, 2016, 02:46:51 am

...Hm. So I put on a cursed ring, just cause.

Turns out I can no longer hold metal. However, my Ring of Sustenance is still on my other hand because I took it off.

This has... Interesting implications as the party's tank. Metal simply passes through my fingers, at least. We ended the session on this. Next week will be, I think, testing of this strange and wondrous property. Good thing I'm a soul blade and my weapons and armor aren't actually metal.

"You approach the evil wizard's tower. An oversized metal gate bars the way."

"Lolnope"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 27, 2016, 06:44:11 am

I think the first test will be whether I can wear gloves or find a proxy substance to manipulate coinage.

Scratch that. First test is having a silver piece thrown at my noggin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 27, 2016, 10:50:19 am

Your DM that hates on familiars has some things I'm not fond of.

For example, I have a wizard who's familiar is a scorpion that he keeps inside of an ammo pouch on his chest. No one knows that it's there except him, and it's out of sight. How would an enemy be able to know that my familiar is in there?

And for he animal companion thing, I know rangers can get a new one after a week and Its dependant on the biome, but I'm not sure if Druid companions work the same.

Also, it can never be as bad as a guy I saw who banned the use of wizards because he didn't like them. He was ok with sorcerers, but wizards was a big no no

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 27, 2016, 11:06:18 am

To be honest, considering the sheer power of wizards as a tier 1 class, that's fair enough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 27, 2016, 01:11:03 pm

One of these days I am going to need a dnd buddy to just shoot ideas off of so I can stop stressing over DMing.

Not that I need ideas, but so much that it helps keep you on track.

I spend half the week every week just looking at the computer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 27, 2016, 02:21:09 pm

Party rules lawyer continues his bullshit.

He uae paralyzingly grasp on me, which can't be removed without remove curse/remove paralyze, and then he cast familicide on me (for those of you who don't know, it kills everyone related to you through blood, and then everyone related to them by blood and so on, but you stay alive).

Throw on top of that, he summoned, instantly, a balor lord, after we just killed to high levels liches who are summoners.

Did I mention that the entire time, the healer, controlled by the rules lawyer, was sitting around and doing jack all, and as I left to go to work, he told me I'm not gonna be healed until long after the encounter? Fuck you...

Also, WHO THE FUCK SUMMONS A BALOR LORD WITH GREATER PLANAR BINDING AT INSTANT SPEED, WHEN GREATER PLANAR BINDING STOPS AT A REGULAR BALOR, JUST TO PISS OFF THE ACTUAL GM?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 27, 2016, 02:45:14 pm

That is not a rules lawyer, that is a munchkin.  Munchkin are a blight on gaming, and the only way to stop them is to have a GM who operates under the principle of 'Not a chance in hell'.  Your group is already screwed, I'd ditch for a better table.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 27, 2016, 03:44:25 pm

He's gonna be stripped of power soon.

If there was a chance to revive his family, it wouldn't be so bad. BUT TO FUCKING MAKE SURE THEY CANT BE REVIVED EXCEPT BY A GOD? FUCK YOU!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on February 27, 2016, 04:15:48 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 27, 2016, 03:44:25 pm

He's gonna be stripped of power soon.

If there was a chance to revive his family, it wouldn't be so bad. BUT TO FUCKING MAKE SURE THEY CANT BE REVIVED EXCEPT BY A GOD? FUCK YOU!

That means they can be revived by Miracle... if that helps... slightly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 27, 2016, 04:17:30 pm

Or you coukd wish that the spell hadn't been cast?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on February 27, 2016, 04:31:26 pm

Yeah, I'd be all for throwing that dude out and declaring all the dickish stuff he did non-canon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 27, 2016, 04:44:57 pm

And/or that too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 27, 2016, 05:27:46 pm

I'm gonna talk to the GM. I was on the assumption I could revive my family the whole time, and when I mentioned it a week ago, he didn't say anything about not being able to bring them back without using a god.

even the source that he got it from allowed them to be revived. They didn't do it because the building got destroyed and the cleric got killed, but they still allowed it.

This... This was bullshit. And throw in he's got another character that is 100% unkillable (I went over scenarios with him, and unless I wish him dead, he's unkillable) AND they want to kill everyone in a law enforcement campaign, I have to be OP or he kills me

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on February 27, 2016, 05:45:21 pm

How on earth do you even make a character unkillable

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 27, 2016, 06:05:57 pm

Magic?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 27, 2016, 06:07:55 pm

Cheese.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 27, 2016, 06:15:10 pm

Cheating.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 27, 2016, 06:53:25 pm

Pretty much cheating

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on February 27, 2016, 08:08:22 pm

Sounds like he got the tarrasque's special regeneration.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on February 27, 2016, 08:50:09 pm

Yeah, these are the type of neckbeards that spend all day trolling through theoretical optimization threads and then get a raging hard-on to actually try it in a real game. It's all well and good to make a game out of discovering how badly you can twist the rules, but that should only be a hypothetical scenario, not applied in a session with other real people. Otherwise you're just being a huge douche.

So in our current game, our dead rogue got his life restored and we did pretty much bugger all about our current quest. Given that said quest is to go fetch a rock, it's probably not going anywhere quickly. Trouble is, this rock happens to be a meteor that fell to the bottom of the ocean. It's gonna be a royal pain in the ass to get out again. Don't know exactly where it is, so we'll probably have to go looking for it. Luckily our newest party member, an oracle, has Freedom of Movement available to avoid the underwater fighting penalties.

Rules question: Do any of the underwater fighting rules specify that aquatic creatures ignore the penalties for fighting underwater? I can't see anything that says a water elemental, for example, doesn't deal half damage with its Slam attack when submerged.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 27, 2016, 10:21:12 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on February 27, 2016, 08:08:22 pm

Sounds like he got the tarrasque's special regeneration.

I'd liken it more to a flame-immune troll, personally.

Quote from: Jimmy on February 27, 2016, 08:50:09 pm

Rules question: Do any of the underwater fighting rules specify that aquatic creatures ignore the penalties for fighting underwater? I can't see anything that says a water elemental, for example, doesn't deal half damage with its Slam attack when submerged.

Oddly enough, I can't find anything for it in Pathfinder's aquatic combat rules, in the elemental/aquatic/water subtypes, or in the water elemental entries themselves. It would make sense that they wouldn't take penalties underwater, since they take massive penalties when not in water, but they are just as worthless in water, as written.

This session I got Magic Jarred by a Shadow Demon. Fun. Damn near killed two party members. One was left below zero at two hitpoints away from real death, and another was about ten away. I crit both of them. Then the Bloodrager/Magus took me down in one full round action. After spending Mythic Power a couple of times to get extra attacks in. Even then, if it weren't for my Burn, I would have still been standing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jiokuy on February 27, 2016, 10:38:01 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 27, 2016, 08:50:09 pm

Rules question: Do any of the underwater fighting rules specify that aquatic creatures ignore the penalties for fighting underwater? I can't see anything that says a water elemental, for example, doesn't deal half damage with its Slam attack when submerged.

Using:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/wilderness/terrain/aquatic-terrain
as reference, since it is the most consolidated collection of rules.

Creatures with a swim speed only take the -2 Attack & 1/2 Damage penalties for using Slashing or Bludgeoning Weapons underwater. (This is why you see merfolk and Tritons using Tridents, Spears, and Underwater Crossbows)

Technically a slam is a bludgeoning attack, and therefore less effective underwater. If you want to rule that the water elemental incorporates surrounding water into it's movements (effectively operating as though it has FoM) that is a perfectly reasonable house rule.

Water Elementals are actually strongest on the surface attacking ships, or grappling air breathers underwater, or perhaps Armed with a weapon. If you want an elemental guard for an underwater temple.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 28, 2016, 07:03:33 am

I just realized I messed up when I crit last session. I took the burn as if I had used composite blasts, but only dealt damage as though I had attacked with a regular blast.

I should have rolled twice as many dice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on February 28, 2016, 12:55:29 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 28, 2016, 07:03:33 am

I just realized I messed up when I crit last session. I took the burn as if I had used composite blasts, but only dealt damage as though I had attacked with a regular blast.

I should have rolled twice as many dice.

I just never stop using composite blasts. Blue flame is too good to not be used.

I wish there was an item or feat that allowed me to bypass fire immunity though...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 28, 2016, 01:25:06 pm

Magic fire?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 02, 2016, 05:27:49 pm

Question: I asked this before in the General discussion thread: is there any pathfinder online gaming group for Bay12?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 02, 2016, 05:30:37 pm

There's GAMES, I'm pretty sure, but not necessarily a unified B12 GROUP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 02, 2016, 11:40:31 pm

I think Mastahcheese was thinking of having a thread where people jump in at any time, do a campaign that's done in an IC chat and works like a sort of hub for people who have D&D or Shadowrun or whatever kind of tabletop game characters where they interact in the forum like a tavern and then in the OP, he would put up quests that he or other people would DM and the person who requested it would provide an IC thread. The goal was to have this thread become the adventurer's guild for D&D players who didn't necessarily want the commitment of a long game (like I would run on here) and just wanted to have fun and experience the game. It was originally aimed to gather people who never played before to have a taste of what it was like. It could be a small campaign or a large one, but it wasn't an entire world, and you didn't have to worry about huge scale worlds or a deep immersive story (it could, but because it was mostly a dungeon crawl at most, it never really expected you to get fully immersed in the world as much as you just needed to flesh out your character). And since it could have players jump into different games, when they finish, they hop back into the "tavern thread" and wait until they saw another dungeon crawl or adventure they wanted to hop in. It also gave you the concept of a new party almost every time, giving the feel of a real "adventurer's guild".

At least, that was the dream...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 03, 2016, 07:13:53 pm

I hate when I have a question, pop over to the official Pathfinder messageboards, and find that the devs have posted several statements that all disagree with each other.

Schrodinger's FAQ, as it were.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 03, 2016, 07:14:48 pm

Oh god

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 03, 2016, 07:19:17 pm

It happens a lot more than I'd like it to.

Do spell-like abilities allow you to qualify for certain feats, such as Arcane Strike? I texted my DM a while ago asking it, but haven't gotten a response yet.

For certain, a Rogue who took at least the Minor Magic talent is allowed to take caster-related feats, even though they aren't a spellcaster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Aseaheru on March 03, 2016, 07:39:21 pm

 Hey, I finally got into a physical group for pathfinder.

 Of which two thirds is family and one the remainder is the GM and their significant other.
 And wherein we just have so much odd stuff ongoing already, in the second session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 03, 2016, 07:40:46 pm

@Contradictions from the devs
There seems to be a ton of that in WoD books honestly.  Mostly direct contradictions in canon, since most of the books are written as by an unreliable narrator.  I think every single clan book claims Rasputin as a factually being a member.

Mechanics too, though.  Like the Mekhet book... just completely contradicts many aspects of the embrace.

Spoiler: Minor Requiem trivia but just in case I guess (click to show/hide)

You can embrace a person who's been literally dead for a few days.
(Because they were based in Egypt and did it to preserved corpses...  Elder Mekhet have spice instead of brains in their skulls.

That goes completely against the core rulebook.

It's kinda neat, though.  The whole system seems to put more focus on the storyteller and "what makes sense" than DND/PF.  Yeah there's rule 0...  But here it's a lot more explicit, because there are more ambiguities ("Use like, whatever skill+stat combo feels appropriate, maaaan") and lore contradictions ("The truth is... [REDACTED]").

On the whole I'm kinda loving it.  I took a break of several months because of a fuckin broken trip-character who dominated every encounter.  This feels perfect for a fresh start.

And I bet most of you already see the Tabletop Gaming topic, but I'm still going to share my account of our first session.  Since this is the "share your experiences" thread...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 03, 2016, 03:41:06 am

We had our first World of Darkness game, as humans who got (spoiler alert) vampired!  I mean embraced.
Sorry, kinda giddy.  I was really worried but it was a lot of fun.  I and one of the other players did a great job rapidly finding the rules in the PDFs, while our GM wove a great little story for each of our characters in sequence.

One character was a bouncer at a bar.  She tried to bounce a gangrel, and actually did some damage.  now she is teh gangrel

The other character was a conwoman.  She "returned" a TV from the Good Will to Best Buy then hung out at a hotel bar.  A Malkavian seemed like an easy mark.  Now she is the Malkavian...
Except OH wow it went screwy.  Her sire wandered off right before dawn, leaving her in the room alone.  His brother told her to "oh shit, uh just hold still for a second I'll be right back".  So she left (because these people were crazy and she was starving).  Absolutely *massacred* someone in the elevator.  Almost died when it opened up to the lobby.  Went to the top floor and waited.  Eventually the sheriff came to clean up the masquerade and-
She *shot* the sheriff right in the chest.  She got staked.  Woke up and finally had everything explained to her.  Tres Malky.

My character was basically a shadowrunner for a hacker group.  Not so great with computers but super sneaky.  He was hired to go in and hack some servers, really just doing it for the challenge.
Here's where it gets weird.  He went to the security room to deactivate the cameras.  Started rolling awful.  Half-sees his future sire (aka "Senpai") mindwiping a guard and looping the cameras.  Tries to hide but is muttering out loud, senpai mindwipes him and moves on.  After which he shoots the guard with what turned out to be a full ounce of LSD, and gets really confused that the cameras are already looping.  Disappointing first impression, Senpai noticed but ignored him ):

Then he goes down to the servers and suddenly I'm rolling aces.  Sees through senpai's invisibility, assumes senpai is a LSD hallucination (my character didn't *remember* doing any, but has a huge memory gap and is seeing weird shit).  Senpai is hacking servers, my character sneaks past and hacks several other servers first.  Manages to stay hidden until Senpai leaves the room.

Then senpai returns, apparently realizing something was up.  Catches me, but is impressed that he didn't notice me (:  Frankly assumes I'm a vampire, or someone's "ghoul".  "Er, I'm a guy" "...Right."  Leaves me in peace, still thinking I'm working for another vampire.  I escape without difficulty, mission complete.

... Later he realizes his mistake, or part of it was just a test.  The next morning something he left on the computers jumped onto my flash drive then onto my computers, rooting them.  I try to ask my friends for help and only get a message from bite2nite "WE KNOW".  Try to kill my drives and buy an airplane ticket, but my card is apparently flagged as "detain and question".

I flee to a hotel and use the public computer to desperately email one of my contacts.  Reply:  "TICK TOCK".  Night's falling.  I decide I'm stuck in an LSD trip this whole time, and hide in a bathroom stall.
I hear him coming, but don't see him.  It only hurt for a moment...

Wake up later in a hotel room.  Cold, sore, so hungry.  He's typing away on a laptop.  Glances up, tosses me a blood pack.  I don't even question it.
Later:  "So... You're dead!"  *session ends*

Frankly I'm now rushing to differentiate my character from myself, because the last thing you want in a Vampire campaign is to be self-inserting too much.  The setting is fucked up, and not in the overexaggerated 40k way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 04, 2016, 12:24:11 am

Two DMs said you can't use SLAs to meet prerequisites. Not unexpected, given the amount of cheese that would enable.

So, I'm still short three feats from completing my build. And I have just under 40k gold that I don't know what to do with. I nabbed a Conductive enchantment on an Amulet of Mighty Fists so I can channel a Kinetic Blast as I Kinetic Fist things.

They think I can Nova hard now, just they wait and see what I'll be able to do soon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 04, 2016, 12:47:28 am

Isn't kinetic fist just a crappy version of kinetic blade? Or did they fix it?

I know one thing I got for my kineticist was healing items, like potions, mostly because you want to avoid damage that doesn't involve burn. I learned the hard way on my homebrew of my own version of a kineticist translated into 5e involved me doing one blast which ended up with me actually knocking myself out by turn 3 because 5e lacks the stats and the HP increases to actually cater to the burn effects. I still need to work on it, but preventing that lethal damage is essential in my books.

Sadly, I have a broken as shit healer in my party, so I don't need potions... Or anything else really, because I just got put on two duties now that our rules lawyer has taken the position as the party support: tank cannon and leader :-\

The first one is expected, since I made the character and kineticists are rediculous in terms of damage output and how tanky they can be, even as an artillery, it was expected. The role of a leader though is something my character doesn't want, mostly because he's kind of lazy and, like he does in combat, takes a back seat until he's really needed. He's pretty much the Saitama of the group, because he stopped caring when the party started calling him insane for being possessed sort of

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 04, 2016, 01:05:16 am

Quote from: highmax28 on March 04, 2016, 12:47:28 am

I learned the hard way on my homebrew of my own version of a kineticist translated into 5e involved me doing one blast which ended up with me actually knocking myself out by turn 3 because 5e lacks the stats and the HP increases to actually cater to the burn effects. I still need to work on it, but preventing that lethal damage is essential in my books.

Have you considered using the Exhaustion mechanic?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 04, 2016, 01:06:18 am

Kinetic Fist still scales slow, but it can fit better into two-weapon-fighting, natural attack spamming, or a Monk's Flurry. To TWF with Kinetic Blades or Whips, you need to use a Quickened or Doubled Metakinesis to create two instances of the weapons at once.

Plus getting your Mythic Tier to your effective level with the Elemental Bond ability from the Archmage helps a little.

I've been looking for items that protect against mind-control or possession, after last session. Too bad Protection From Evil isn't on the Permanency list.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 04, 2016, 01:26:33 am

But doesn't kinetic fist ignore the count of attacks you get from flurry, etc?

I think you should consider buffing the will save alone. It can probably save your ass.

If you find anything that allows me to bypass fire immunity, feel free to share

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 04, 2016, 01:31:55 am

Nope, Kinetic Fist applies to all Unarmed and Natural attacks you make for a round when you take an Attack Action, Charge Action, or Full-Attack Action. It makes no mentions of a limitation of attacks, though you don't get your Con mod or your Elemental Overflow to damage. Unless your element is Fire, because Fire's Fury cheats like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on March 04, 2016, 01:50:10 am

Kineticists sound all sorts of crazy. Do they have any weaknesses at all?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 04, 2016, 02:07:10 am

Coming across a creature with immunity or resistance to your energy-based element: Cold, Electricity, Fire, or raw Negative Energy. Poor Acid was completely forgotten about, so it isn't an option.

Or Damage Reduction if you chose a physical-based element (Aether, Air, Earth, Gravity, Wind, and Wood). No way to break anything other than DR/Magic, Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing. Unless you go Earth, then do not choose to take another element when given the option to at either level 7 or 15, so that you become a metal-bender instead, allowing you to bypass metal-based DRs with the right infusion.

Also taking enough Burn points to render yourself unconcious. It's a form of non-lethal that can only be healed through a night's sleep. We also have poor Will saves.

You're basically a Bender from Avatar. Or a Jedi if you go Aether, which is Telekinetic-themed. Better Rogue than the Rogue, but poor damage options, in comparison to the other elements.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 04, 2016, 03:25:58 am

Pyrokineticist (fire based kineticist) is also one of the most high output for damage, because they have an ability to increase damage based off of burn. And you're gonna be taking burn, and a lot of it. They also are the only ones with a high damaging blast (blue flame) that targets touch AC.

Everything that makes them have unique abilities costs burn.

Wanna attack beyond 30ft? Take 1 point of burn.

Want to have a 15ft come effect? 1 point of burn.

Wall effect? 4 points of burn

Also, artillery kineticists like Haldor (my Pyrokineticist) only get one blast until they get quickened or twice metakinesis, in which case, costs a fuck ton of burn that can't be prevented without charging and wasting turns

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on March 04, 2016, 03:35:04 am

Quote from: Gentlefish on February 27, 2016, 02:46:51 am

...Hm. So I put on a cursed ring, just cause.

The last time I played Pathfinder, my half-orc character was coerced into marrying a goblin princess (on pain of death- I asked the DM if she was even partway hot by greenskin standards, turns out she had a face like the back of a bus), and the druid, who I believe was either conducting the ceremony or acting as best man, used a cursed ring out of our loot bag as my wedding band. >.>

When the party moved on from the goblin kingdom (this was all deep underground, part of a much-larger dungeon we'd been exploring bit by bit for some reason or other), cataclysmic events were eventually caused by our ongoing quest and our way back up to that area was collapsed. Can't remember quite why, but I think either demons or a non-consensual planeshift was to blame.
Anyway, despite that the DM vowed that he would get my PC back together with his goblin bride, no matter what.
But then we unleashed some immortal ancient horror and ended the world instead. Ha!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: chaoticag on March 04, 2016, 05:14:25 pm

So it's been a while since I posted this, but got busy with stuf and things. So far it looks like my game with some new players to Pathfinder is going well. So far, all players minus a few know the rules, the one that does played D&D since 2nd edition. Since I wasn't sure how much time I'd have to prepare from time to time I have decided to run them through the Rise of the Runelords campaign. Oddly enough, they're picking up on what they can do and seem to be going on things a bit organically in terms of what they end up doing in combat. The only issue so far has been getting them to focus a bit on the campaign, but dropping the skype call for talking got them into a roleplaying mood. So far seems to be pretty fun for all players involved at least despite the odd time we do things at.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on March 04, 2016, 08:58:51 pm

Reposting from the Tabletop thread since it's kinda technically D&D:

Quote from: Kadzar on March 04, 2016, 08:49:36 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on March 04, 2016, 02:30:37 am

Quote from: Kadzar on March 03, 2016, 04:09:48 pm

Since it's come up, I'll mention Demigods Story (http://imgur.com/a/pnWYj#9jPhO2M). I found that in the comments section of the Godbound Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/godbound-a-game-of-divine-heroes) (which I've backed), given as an example of the sort of story that game could emulate.

An explanation of the game: it's basically like Exalted or the Immortal part of BECMI, but relatively simple rules that make it possible to challenge such high-level characters. It's by the guy who made Stars Without Number (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86467/Stars-Without-Number-Free-Edition), and, similar to that game, there will be a free version that has all the rules you need to play and a deluxe version (which is what the Kickstarter provides) with 40 pages of extra optional content. These include things that help people wanting to add more of an Exalted feel to their game, such as Godwalkers (basically Warstriders, but non-copyright infringing), divine martial arts, and rules for theming characters as various Exalted types.

Here's the link to the beta files (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4qCWY8UnLrcRGxjSmFqSWEyMk0&usp=drive_web), which the author has explicitly allowed backers to share.

Cheers, that was a fine story and one I'd not read before. I'll keep an eye on this new game coming out; before I get more into it, what's it like mechanically?

The base rules are pretty much a classless version of D&D Basic Set (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_Basic_Set) with three types of saves like the kind introduced in 3.5, but renamed (so Fortitude is Hardiness, Reflex is Evasion, and Will is Spirit).

Though that's just the basic framework of the system, and can easily be replaced. The real meat is in the Gift system, in which you gain a number of powers from what is basically your godly domains, and these are either constant benefits or require you to Commit Effort. This means you must temporarily spend a point of Effort (a resource pool you gain more of as you level up) to gain the effect of a Gift, and you can't use that Effort point again until you reclaim it. Generally you can reclaim Effort at any time, which ends the effect, but, if the Gift says, "Commit Effort for the scene" or "Commit Effort for the day", you can't reclaim it until then, even if the effect is much shorter than that.

Then there's the Influence and Dominion system, which are used to change Facts (kind of like Fate system Aspects) about the world, with more points required depending on the size of the change (the table starts at Willage level and ends at Realm level, or "the whole world") and a multiplier for the plausibility of the change. Influence is much like Effort, a finite but reusable resource (which, like Effort, increases as you level up) which only has effect so long as it's committed. Dominion can be used for more permanent change, though it gets used up when spent, but it's much more renewable, as it's gained like experience points (and, in fact, a certain amount of Dominion must be spent to level up) or from the worship of followers.

Also, like in one of the creator's other games, Scarlet Heroes (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/127180/Scarlet-Heroes), while enemies do damage to the players' hitpoints, against anything other than other Godbound, players will do damage directly to hit dice. And, once a round, players can roll something called a Fray Dice, which can be used to deal extra damage against foes with less hit dice than the players. To keep things for going overboard, even though normal D&D damage dice are used, the amount of damage is actually less because it's compared to a chart that goes from 0-4 for each dice rolled, unless, in the case of some Gifts, the damage is meant to be read straight (in other words, don't use the chart and just read what the dice says).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 05, 2016, 01:00:20 am

My bay12 group for pathfinder is now dealing with a bunch of rats attacking their home base as the rogue and the NPC huntress are on the front lines watching a summoned pony get eaten alive. It also got diseased to the point it has only 1hp left now, and I'm expecting a lot of shit to go down. Especially since there is an estimated 8 player party (including NPCs) and a group of roughly 9 militia (only three with actual experience in combat, the rest peasants with hatchets) taking on a decent sized army of angry, pissed off rats that are climbing in from the ceiling and dropping in. So far, in the first round, there is a rat swarm and three dire rats, and more are coming.

I know you're reading this Sirus... I know what you're thinking, and I'm fairly certain you're going to hate me if you find out every detail of why this is happening.

And no, its not because I forced it to happen. Something specific was said, and this is the consequence of that. What was it that was said? You might never figure it out, or you may get lucky and discover it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on March 05, 2016, 01:14:44 am

You forgot to mention that the rats (some of them, anyway) are lycanthropes and we have very little silver or energy to use against them effectively :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 05, 2016, 06:08:39 am

Quote from: Sirus on March 05, 2016, 01:14:44 am

You forgot to mention that the rats (some of them, anyway) are lycanthropes and we have very little silver or energy to use against them effectively :P

Nah. These ones are regular rats, you'll be fine

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 05, 2016, 12:06:09 pm

So, my party seems to be turning out into a) the wizard, who is a walking codex of all things magical and planar, which is fantastic since we're fighting a lot of demons, b) The sorceror, who is generally terrible at things a sorceror should be good at (bluff, diplomacy, magic) but a surprisingly exceleent surrogate rogue, c) The fighter, who is so far fantastically lucky with impersonating guards, and d) the paladin, who, much like the wizard, is very good at dealing with demons.

The last session was kind of hilarious, since we started out with being stymied by a bolted door (the sorceror eventually managed to use Mage Hand to get it open, through the crack). We then progressed to the sorceror losing half his HP to a bungled attempt at sweeping some hellfire powder off the steps (luckily, he passed his reflex save, or he'd have been knocked to 0), and had to pretend to be a special division of the guards when confronted by a real guard who'd heard the powder going off. We beat his Sense Motive by 1, which was probably helped by the fact that the sorceror was hiding under a table and the wizard was out of sight, so it was just two fairly generic soldier types.

We finally managed to find the slaves (in the basement), and after a bit of coaxing and a nat 20 on Diplomacy, led them out. At this point, we were attacked by an invisible imp.

The sorceror cast a Colour Spray in its direction, but apparently missed. The wizard couldn't do anything, since he didn't have any non-friendly-firey spells to hit the imp, and the paladin used detect evil to make sure it hadn't flown away.

At this point the RNG smiled on us, and I rolled a 19 on a perception check, followed by making both attack rolls with flying colours despite the whole, y'know, invisible thing and being taking a -2 penalty for Rapid Shooting. Then, the RNG laughed maliciously and I rolled a 2 and a 1, which didn't make it through the imp's DR.

Then the imp lost invisibility and the wizard and paladin killed it to death, while the sorceror and I spewed arrows and bolts ineffectually.

And then we had to get back over the wall. This took a long time. The DM joked that the sorceror should multiclass to ranger and make walls his favoured enemy. Eventually we managed, with the aid of Enlarge Person. At this point, we realised we handed used our pass without trace dust, and the sorceror had to climb back down, rebolt the door (which we'd left open), and scatter the dust.

We finally left just before dawn, having started the terribly inefficient heist before midnight. It was... not great. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 06, 2016, 02:05:43 am

I didn't know that during the last session of pathfinder that we were level 12, so I apparently fought those level 20 summoners and the balor under-leveled. And then I gained 4 levels and got explosion infusion and access to PLASMA!

Thanks to retraining kineticist abilities, I can fly with complete control (not in lines like flame jet had me do), attack at 960ft away, and I also can teleport next to my blast. I also have a 35% chance to dodge ranged attacks (in this campaign, dodging bullets is important).

Also, due to how my character looks, plays and a whole bunch of other factors, my guy has pretty much become Goku. He has medium length black hair (that's pretty unkept right now due to all the shit he's dealing with), he radiates an aura of lightning/fire/plasma at almost all times, he can go super sayain, and he's the one character who can deal the single most damage in the party, plus he has the highest HP total at 259 max hp.

I also started an encounter by causing an explosion inside someone's estate, killing a bunch of elves (remember, they're the nazis in this world) and creating a big hole inside the hallway and other spots.

I also collapsed a stairway and, because my character is lazy, he almost killed a party member by creating a quickened/maximized/empowered blue flame explosion and then doing a second maximized/empowered blue flame explosion, but I realized I haven't charged for long enough, so I would have hurt myself too much. And since my blast would have done 14d6+9*1.5 damage maximized for a whopping total of 139 fire damage, it would have ended poorly if I did it a second time. Needless to say, I almost killed every enemy with that one explosion, and I think someone scrying on us or something saw, and communicated to us to surrender or they'll kill our allies.

What ended up happening afterwards was my guy not really giving a fuck as we walked into an airship that had an anti-magic field on it, and at first I was like "I don't give a fuck, I don't cast magic! I have spell-like abilities!"

And then I discovered that it still negates my fire, and my guy freaked out, mostly because his plan of not having any weapons and not mattering didn't help.

So, we were brought into a room with everyone who was or is in our party there, and my guy doesn't take the elves seriously, so he puts his feet up and just leans back in his chair as the Colonel walks in, who's been a really huge asshole to us, and starts interrogating us about some business.

He goes up to the munchkin and they both crit on their checks, but the colonel, being an inquisitor, had a stupidly high sense motive bonus and won. He goes to the duregar wizard who had no skill in bluff and he, of all people, managed to succeed in lying to the Colonel by criting his roll. He goes up to me and hands me a gun, and he tells me to play a game with him. We essentially play russian roulette and he asks me to tell him what he wants to know.

Haldor, being the lazy smart ass, asks him what he wants to know. He shouts louder "TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO KNOW!" and I repeat myself. He asks the specific question and my guy jsut smiles because, out of the entire party, he has no idea what he's talking about (I missed two important parts of the campaign because I was late to show up, and it just happened to be regarding the thing he's referring to), and he just gives me this ridiculous look because he still thinks I'm lying and tells me to shoot myself.

I actually managed to manifest my buddy Visilie Kroznov (the possession that turned into a full part of my psyche, pretty much becoming a second consciousness to my character) and after a brief conversation with him about what he thinks I should do, he tells me to just pull the trigger, which lead to nothing happening except the revolver clicking (in hindsight, I should have just kept pulling the trigger, because, unless it had an insta-kill thing in it, I could have probably taken the hit, and even with a x4 crit from coup de grace (if that applied) I would have probably still survived, miraculously). We do this to several party members, until we reach the last one who is the captain of the pirate crew who takes us everywhere (and he's also our NPC ally), who turns into a werewolf quickly and fires at the colonel since he knows the sixth chamber had the bullet in it. He sadly didn't kill him, but the colonel then grabbed captain Bradley and fired an entire clip into his skull after slamming his head against the table, which killed him brutally.

We also got to see for the first time, that elves have finally gained access to modern firearms.

I was tempted to jump out of the window after shoving my allies in a couple bags of holding (I have two, munchkin has three) and then blowing the airship up, but I forgot we have a party member's baby in another room.

I'm also considering getting something that gives me fire immunity, because I realized that if someone can redirect my blast back at me, or copy it, I'll probably be knocked unconscious due to heavy damage and burn damage. Sadly, I have no idea what could give me that...

I also need to look for a way to bypass fire immunity, because given the stupidly high AC everyone has at these levels, I won't be able to hit much with my plasma blast...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 06, 2016, 02:10:21 am

For fire resistance / immunity, I'd recommend... Well, a ring of that. I think gaining the fire subtype (via buffs/equips) should help?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 06, 2016, 02:46:01 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on March 06, 2016, 02:10:21 am

For fire resistance / immunity, I'd recommend... Well, a ring of that. I think gaining the fire subtype (via buffs/equips) should help?

I need immunity, not resistance, sadly. 30 damage reduced from 139 damage isn't gonna cut it, sadly... I'm tempted to say fuck it and when they're immune to fire, switch to plasma and hope to god that I have a high enough bonus to hit to actually do something.

Unfortunately, I only have a +16 to hit. That means my limit, without landing a critical strike, is 37 AC. We just fought an enemy inquisitor that has an AC HIGHER than that.

So unless I take at least 5 points of burn to increase my to hit by an extra 5, I'm not very good at being artillery when the target is fire immune...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 08, 2016, 03:36:46 pm

While I'm awaiting a response from my DM, I'll ask you all the same question. Can you make a slotless item slotted? If so, how does the pricing work? Rules as written, slotless items becoming slotted would be half-price.

I'm also looking for more ways to increase my Will, and/or find some way to become immune to mind-effects. Though that will likely be disallowed. The DM is thinking of making every enemy incorporeal, and removing Ghost Touch from the game, since it means we don't do much damage that way. He was also fairly giddy after finding someone who is easily controlled/possessed into prompting a team-wipe by going nova.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 08, 2016, 03:43:07 pm

Consider protection from Evil stuff, that is as much as I can think of so far... Other than literally making yourself a machine, I don't think there is a way to do it.

If you're a pyrokineticist, consider doing the plane of fire quest to get the ability to break enchantment on yourself or others

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 08, 2016, 03:48:16 pm

Purging Flame is from a splatbook, so it is very likely not allowed. Plus we don't have the downtime to travel a continent away to complete a quest for/give a gift to/impress a volcano spirit.

I asked another player what he thought about slotted slotless magic items. He said that punching a hole through an item to turn it into an amulet would destroy it. I don't think he understands how it works.

He also asked me to change to a Skald/Kineticist. Don't know why. Thinks I should become a necromancer. In Wrath of the Righteous. May as well carry a big sign that says "Smite Me", because various Good Gods watch you closely in that campaign, and having a horde of undead will not earn their favour in the slightest. I don't think Skalds even get Create Undead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 08, 2016, 05:00:51 pm

Uhhh... Maybe consider getting a buttload of contingency scrolls armed with break enchantment or similar on them. Its sets a trigger condition for the break enchantment spell to go off when you get hit with a mind control spell. I have it set on my wizard to cast dimension door when he drops below 40% hp to get to the farthest distance away from the battlefield.

Since it IS a scroll, and I know that dispel magic requires a higher caster level, this is gonna be VERY expensive. But so far, it seems to be the only way to deal with that.

The only thing stopping you is finding a wizard or sorcerer that can cast it and are high enough level to make them effective

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 08, 2016, 05:34:50 pm

Too low a level for contingency at the moment. The DM is also adamant on not allowing downtime and removing several rest periods from the adventure, to make it harder. We're lucky he let us stop to sell loot. We literally only got the first chance now, and we just finished the second book in the adventure.

We have a paladin and an oracle, but they have to get me first, because I have already one-shot them both. I'm more than capable of doing it again, if forced to.

The closest item I've seen is the Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls, which protects from soul effects, like Magic Jar, but a Dominate would still wreck me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 08, 2016, 06:07:57 pm

This is a problem... I know cloak of resistance is ALWAYS handy, but still, with a +12 will save, that doesn't help against a caster...

Like a Lich :|

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 08, 2016, 06:15:04 pm

Or the mythic shadow demon that played me like a puppet. Normal shadow demons have a DC 19 for their Magic Jar. This one has a higher Charisma, the Ability Focus feat for their SLAs, plus whatever the DM did to alter it. And it's still alive! He gave it a quickened teleport, and it fled the second it was booted out my half-dead ass.

This DM doesnt like fights that arent always near a TPK. There's a half-fiend chimera you are supposed fight at one point. He replaced it with a mythic adult red dragon. We were level 7. The paladin was the only one that could hurt it, and still had a terrible time actually getting a hit in.

Thankfully, a cloak is very cheap, and most of us have taken the legendary item mythic ability, so we can actually get item bonuses. He let us sell loot, but not actually buy anything. But you can still upgrade a legendary item with just gold.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 08, 2016, 07:04:34 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 08, 2016, 06:15:04 pm

Or the mythic shadow demon that played me like a puppet. Normal shadow demons have a DC 19 for their Magic Jar. This one has a higher Charisma, the Ability Focus feat for their SLAs, plus whatever the DM did to alter it. And it's still alive! He gave it a quickened teleport, and it fled the second it was booted out my half-dead ass.

This DM doesnt like fights that arent always near a TPK. There's a half-fiend chimera you are supposed fight at one point. He replaced it with a mythic adult red dragon. We were level 7. The paladin was the only one that could hurt it, and still had a terrible time actually getting a hit in.

Thankfully, a cloak is very cheap, and most of us have taken the legendary item mythic ability, so we can actually get item bonuses. He let us sell loot, but not actually buy anything. But you can still upgrade a legendary item with just gold.

If you had a cleric/wizard, you could just enchant your stuff.

Also, your DM sounds like my rules lawyer, except he expects you to insta-kill everyone. So far, I'm the only one able to do so.


I'm also planning on talking to the DM about my character finding out about his dead family and becoming the final boss as he steals the artifacts we are trying to recover, which is said to ascend people into godhood, but make you insane. Because I'm already insane with having Kroznov in my head, there really can't be much worse than that.

It would also be the biggest dick slap to the rules lawyer since he's been shitting on all my characters because my first character, my ranger, worshipped Norse gods when it was confirmed that when the pathfinder pantheon came out, the old gods, norse, celtic, etc., all were ousted or killed. And the rules lawyer kept saying that the gods should have smote me and my family since they started worshipping them. Got to the point he got his girlfriend to shit on me and the GM said I can do it, but know that they aren't present in his world. Rules Lawyer kept bitching and complaining whenever my ranger did ANYTHING too...

So having a pyrokineticist become a god? It would be disgusting...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 08, 2016, 07:07:06 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on March 08, 2016, 07:04:34 pm

So having a pyrokineticist become a god *and then kill [the rule lawyer's character] with an insanely powerful blast before taking on the party? It would be disgusting...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 08, 2016, 07:25:11 pm

Bitching about deities is so pointless. Pathfinder deities don't care. Rahadoum is a militant atheist Imperium of Man styled nation. Razmir worships Razmir, a powerful Sorcerer who is definitely not a deity. People worship plenty of dead deities still. The Egyptian deities are actually just powerful aliens in Pathfinder lore. Divine classes are explicitly allowed to follow whatever they want to. Any schmuck is allowed to attempt the Trials of the Starstone to become a deity. In fact, plenty of assholes have succeeded. One did it on a bet. Drunk.

The gods don't care.

Salt salt salt salt some assholes just want to shit on other people's fun and call it chocolate frosting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 08, 2016, 07:29:39 pm

This world ignores the starstone legend due to plot reasons. The rules lawyer brought it up in character and the DM called him out, saying that his character would never know about that because they cannot be done on the world we are in

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 08, 2016, 09:07:23 pm

Been more than a few hours since I text my DM. Still no answer.

Time to make my legendary bonded item a Mask of Everything.

I have plenty of splatbooks that I'd be more than willing to share, but people don't care. Thinks something is OP, or weird, just plain doesn't like it for no real reason, and is too lazy to look into it, so only allows Core books, and cherry picks what parts of core books they want to use.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 09, 2016, 04:25:00 am

Last week in Pathfinder:

DM: You've successfully reached the bottom of the ocean. You see an underwater mountain dotted with glowing coral. Half a wrecked ship appears to be sitting against the side.

Me: I swim over towards the ship.

DM: You peer through one of the portholes. Most of the ship is filled with rubble, but the captain's quarters appear to be mostly clear, though home to several large growths of razor sharp coral. You also see a chest inside this room.

Me: I take 20 on my Perception check to peer through the porthole.

Rogue: I Shadowjump inside!

Me: ...

DM: Roll a Will save.

Rogue: Uh, 7?

DM: Right, we'll be going by round now. First round, Wizard peers through the porthole, Rogue steps through the shadows inside the room. [Dice roll] Nothing else happens.

Me: Okay, forget taking 20. I ask Fighter to break into the room instead and Rogue to search the chest for traps.

Fighter: I swing my Earth Breaker into the wood.

Rogue: I search for traps.

DM: Second round. Fighter breaks into the captain's quarters. [Dice roll] Rogue finds no traps on the chest. It is, however, locked.

Me: I ask Rogue to unlock the chest as I enter the room.

Rogue: I attempt to unlock the chest.

Fighter: I open the chest.

DM: Third round. [Dice roll] The chest is easily unlocked. Inside is a large pile of gems of varying qualities.

Me: I scoop up as many gems as I can and put them in my pack.

Fighter: I help.

Rogue: I use Sleight of Hand to pocket a few for myself!

DM: Fourth round. [Dice roll] Wizard manages to spot Rogue pocketing the gems. You successfully gather half of the chest's contents. [Note handed to Rogue]

Me: I grab more gems and mention that I'll need to appraise the ones Rogue took later.

Fighter: I grab more gems too.

Rogue: I stick my tongue out at Wizard and make farting noises.

DM: Fifth round. [Dice roll] You've gathered all of the gems from the chest. [Note handed to Rogue]

Me: I leave the ship.

Fighter: I search the bottom of the chest to check for secret compartments.

Rogue: I attack Fighter! [Dice roll] Two hits vs. flat-footed AC, sneak attack on both... 50ish damage!

DM: Sixth round. Good hits. Fighter is bleeding heavily in the water after being stabbed in the back twice. How do you respond?

Me: I stare in utter horror and shout at Rogue to explain himself.

Fighter: I take it personally and hit him with my Earth Breaker. [Dice roll]

Rogue: ...uh, is that a natural 20?

Fighter: Yep. [Dice roll] Does 30ish confirm?

Rogue: Um... yeah.

Fighter: [Dice roll] Okay, you take 100 damage.

Rogue: ...

DM: Rogue's head is transformed into chunky salsa.

tl;dr: Rogue tripped Confusion trap, decided to try to use it as an excuse to rob the party, karma served him poetic justice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 09, 2016, 10:37:00 am

Oh wow... That was interesting

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 09, 2016, 10:54:18 am

Fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2016, 04:16:24 pm

Figured I may as well share the blog post (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5likr) teasing the upcoming Ultimate Intrigue book for Pathfinder.

The Vigilante seems really silly. Ten whole pages of archetypes in that book, apparently. Including one for being the Hulk, and one for being an Anime Magical Girl, complete with flashy transformation sequence, music included.

Ah well. At least they are getting a bit more out there with archetypes, with all the benefits and negatives that may entail. Finally loosening their views on alignment-restricted classes, with the new Gray Paladin, which must be within one step of Lawful Good, and the Tyrant Antipaladin, which is Lawful Evil.

And I can't help but get the feeling that the Base Summoner isn't going to ever get anything new, since the Unchained Summoner has received much more love since it came out. U-Summoner even has specific archetypes the Base one doesn't have access to. Much more flavourful, as well, with its eidolon subtypes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on March 11, 2016, 04:20:54 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2016, 04:16:24 pm

And I can't help but get the feeling that the Base Summoner isn't going to ever get anything new, since the Unchained Summoner has received much more love since it came out. U-Summoner even has specific archetypes the Base one doesn't have access to. Much more flavourful, as well, with its eidolon subtypes.

That is because unlike most DM's irrational dislike of the Unchained classes...

The Unchained Summoner is much more balanced then the broken summoner... and the Unchained Summoner is meant to be an outright replacement. Unlike the other's "Spruce up".

I'd extent that to all the unchained but I don't want to be bogged down in arguments right now. Suffice it to say, I dislike it when DMs ban unchained classes for no good reason.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2016, 04:24:32 pm

My DM's rationalization is that the Unchained book is actually a sneak-peek for Pathfinder 2.0

And because Rogues getting Dex to damage is beyond broken, apparently. Even more so since it also increases when wielding a weapon with two hands, like Strength. Even though there are literally only three weapons that can be finessed and used in two hands.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on March 11, 2016, 04:26:36 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2016, 04:24:32 pm

My DM's rationalization is that the Unchained book is actually a sneak-peek for Pathfinder 2.0

And because Rogues getting Dex to damage is beyond broken, apparently.

Sorry the Bees again!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2016, 05:18:58 pm

At least Pathfinder is a little more forgiving, with fewer enemies immune to sneak attacks. Getting into position is still a pain in the ass though, and if one of the hard-hitters in the party gets to go first, you might not have the opportunity to flank an enemy. Though the Agile enchantment only costs a +1, and it's not like there aren't feats to get Dex to Damage anyways.

Overall, I'd say that Unchained is an improvement to various classes. I fail to see the "sneak peek to PF2.0" bit, though. Nowhere is that stated or implied, to my knowledge.

Cleaning up Barbarian Rage Powers and the common problem of dying when Rage runs out or if you are knocked unconscious.

Making the Monk a proper Full-BAB/D10HD class, rather than being a sometimes-full-BAB class, while getting some cool Ki Powers and more combat versatility with Style Strikes.

Cleaning up Rogue Talents, though Signature Skills vary from useless to awesome. Intimidate is probably my favourite one.

The Summoner has been brought in line, with fewer evolution points, Eidolons getting subtypes for extra flavour, and a revised spell list. There's going to be a few subtypes added as well. I know there's a new one from Blood of Shadows. The Shadow Eidolon, of course. Ultimate Intrigue will also add a Fey Eidolon. Which is interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 11, 2016, 05:48:36 pm

Isn't Unchained just Paizo's response to 5e? They needed to keep people interested in their product, so, a few months before 5e released, they announced Unchained.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on March 11, 2016, 05:50:30 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on March 11, 2016, 05:48:36 pm

Isn't Unchained just Paizo's response to 5e? They needed to keep people interested in their product, so, a few months before 5e released, they announced Unchained.

I think that is more a coincidence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2016, 06:06:31 pm

It's more to address the common complaints people make about the four classes altered in the book.

Some Barbarian/Rogue talents were poorly worded or weren't worth taking. People complain that the Rogue is underpowered, and the Barbarians tend to die when Rage runs out, since their Con buff didn't count as temporary HP. Part of the Rogue issue is people not realizing they can get Sneak Attack on every hit, not just once per round.

The Summoner had a spell-list better than other 0-6 casters, and Eidolons were very powerful with the sheer number of Evo Points they got. Every Eidolon tended to reach end-game as, to paraphrase the developers, a beast with ten tentacles and two butts.

The Monk is the Monk. A frontline fighter with only decent HP and BAB and didn't actually have proficiency with Monk Weapons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 11, 2016, 06:26:24 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2016, 06:06:31 pm

It's more to address the common complaints people make about the four classes altered in the book.

Some Barbarian/Rogue talents were poorly worded or weren't worth taking. People complain that the Rogue is underpowered, and the Barbarians tend to die when Rage runs out, since their Con buff didn't count as temporary HP. Part of the Rogue issue is people not realizing they can get Sneak Attack on every hit, not just once per round.

The Summoner had a spell-list better than other 0-6 casters, and Eidolons were very powerful with the sheer number of Evo Points they got. Every Eidolon tended to reach end-game as, to paraphrase the developers, a beast with ten tentacles and two butts.

The Monk is the Monk. A frontline fighter with only decent HP and BAB and didn't actually have proficiency with Monk Weapons.

Wasn't that a thing from South Park? The multiple butt things?

Either way, the fact of the eidolon being an ungodly powerful monster, and some of the archetypes allowing you to make your eidolon A FUCKING SEA MONSTER was terrifying. I was lucky I killed it so quickly in that fight with the two level 20 summoners because he redirected all damage from him to his eidolon. Apparently, it didn't have the 200-300hp everyone thoguht it would, and we must have killed it rather quickly, because I blasted him twice, the gunslinger shot him about 24+ times (several being critical hits), and he died on the first hit of a swashbuckler stabbing him once and the bonus to damage killed him.

This is also why I like to say what the enemy looks like after every hit in games I run. I usually tell the party when they hit the 50% mark and the 10% mark by how badly wounded they look

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 12, 2016, 01:32:08 am

So, build question: As a level one fighter, I'm currently specced into ranged combat reasonably heavily. There's a level up on the horizon, though, which I could either use to go more into ranged with Deadly Aim, or work on melee a bit by taking Power Attack into Cleave next level. It's pretty tempting, since with a composite longbow ranged and melee combat stats do overlap, and it would give more options for some of the urban environment fighting we're doing. It'd also be convenient for the amount of time I spend meatshielding the squishy spellcasters, and make slightly more use of my relatively formidable 19AC. It also provides feats to take while I wait for my BAB to increase for things like Manyshot. Oh, and I have the Fencer trait, which is pretty neat.

On the other hand, jack of all trades, master of none, and it's obviously suboptimal to be mediocre at a lot of things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 08:55:36 am

Properly specced Fighters are gods of ranged combat. And in Pathfinder, there's a huge amount of stuff you'll fight that have "Nope-Nope-F*ck-Nope" abilities that work in melee. If you like your character and don't want them dying as to face successively more dangerous enemies, attacking from range is the way to go. There's also something intensely gratifying about putting an arrow through something's eye socket from a good 500 feet away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 12, 2016, 11:29:04 am

Your spell casters should consider casting mount and mount communal to provide meat shields. It also allows you to keep being a ranged fighter as well

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 06:44:05 pm

As a DM, I would rule that casting Mount to summon a horse would cause it to react as an ordinary animal would respond to combat, i.e. run away as fast as possible from whatever threatens it. I'd probably have it make an overrun attack vs. any PC that was in its path too. I'd require a Handle Animal check to actually cause it to remain in place, DC 25 for pushing it to attack. A clever PC would need to realize they could technically command it to simply stay in place with a DC 10 check, however, since that's part of the riding package, though it wouldn't threaten or attack if it did so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on March 12, 2016, 07:27:11 pm

Don't such spells usually require things to be summoned in a place you can see? If you can already see inside your opponent's ribcage they probably aren't a threat anymore (undead notwithstanding).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 12, 2016, 07:33:53 pm

One would hope there isn't also a "summon weapon" spell or somesuch, because if you were to be able to do the same with a greatsword..

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 07:35:21 pm

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration)

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on March 12, 2016, 07:36:27 pm

So knock the enemy prone, then summon an elephant on them?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 12, 2016, 07:37:44 pm

Aw.
Well, at least that means you can summon, say, a weapon straight to your hand or something.

Twin, that would require the elephant to be floating, which violates the rule.
Or you would summon in on the ground the enemy occupies, also violating the rule.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on March 12, 2016, 07:38:42 pm

Quote from: Twinwolf on March 12, 2016, 07:36:27 pm

So knock the enemy prone, then summon an elephant on them?

Quote from: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 07:35:21 pm

It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

So, nope :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 12, 2016, 07:41:45 pm

Those limitations are distinctly not present in 3.5e, but I don't think I ever had the gall to summon something in space above an enemy.  I remember considering it, but figuring it would probably get shot down (the idea, not the creature :P)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 07:46:23 pm

Yes they are.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration)

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Pathfinder copy-pasted a hell of a lot of their core rules from the 3.5 OGL material. That was one of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 12, 2016, 08:29:18 pm

Nice, my bad!
I only thought to check the spell description itself, and the section for range/effect area.  Didn't think to check the school description for additional rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on March 12, 2016, 09:28:09 pm

This discussion reminded me that, in Talislanta, you totally could summon a sword inside of a guy (at least in 4th and 5th editions) because the magic system lets you build your own spells and its school is based on the ultimate mechanical effect it has, so even though it has the appearance of summoning, it's technically an Attack spell.

So you probably wouldn't be able to get a sword out of this, since it would only last for the duration of the attack, and you could, I guess, summon a creature, but, again, it would only last for that one attack (which makes me realize you could use this to do Final Fantasy-style one-round summons). I suppose you could also combine Attack and Summon with Sorcery (which is an ancient powerful magic technique that must be quested for and takes some effort to learn). Or you can use Attack as something that modifies your existing attacks, so it could possibly exist for the whole combat at most, but I don't think you can combine the duration attack with the instant (though you could have a spell that lets you summon swords in dudes when you hit them with an attack; maybe you could be pulling them out of them?)

This is somewhat off-topic since it's a different game, but it's just something I thought of.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 09:31:28 pm

Yeah, it's clear that the designers intended you not be able to summon a dire rat inside someone's chest cavity and have it eat its way out. Likewise, no summoning a whale mid-air and dropping it on your enemies.

There's ways around this of course. Wall of Force above the enemy followed by spamming Communal Mount for example, which carpet bombs the area beneath in horseflesh. However the Pathfinder rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Falling) call out the damage as about 4d6, and require a touch attack roll with a 20 ft. range and add a DC 15 Reflex saving throw to halve the damage. At that stage it's probably just easier to throw a fireball and call it a day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 12, 2016, 10:23:37 pm

Reminded a bit of the old "Wall of Horse" tactic. Use large sized or larger summons to create a wall the enemies can't pass through so that the party can escape, or to create a buffer so that they can pelt the enemies with ranged attacks without worrying about melee units coming through.

---

Not much in this session. Repaired the broken citadel. Wandered to the south. Came across a hidden cavern with a lava lake inside. No-one could pass the perception DC to spot the hidden entrance of a stone structure on an island in the middle of the lake, and the DM wouldn't allow me to use my Shift Earth (http://archivesofnethys.com/KineticistTalentsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shift%20Earth) talent to create a door in it.

Wandered south again, into a forest. Came across a desolate town. The residents wouldn't talk, and even fled once the Paladin started chasing people trying to be friends, so we went to the largest building we saw. There were two guards inside by the front doorway, and they went to attack us. They went down pretty quick. In the next room. there were eight more guards, and the Wizard killed them all with a single Mythic Fireball.

In the last room, we met the lord of the town. A demon with a pet frost drake. The Wizard challenged him to a duel, 2 on 2. I was the Wizard's second, and obliterated the drake. I gathered energy, and took Burn to use a Maximized Empowered Composite Blast. It was dead three times over. Meanwhile the Wizard kept popping the demon with Scorching Rays while hopping about the room using Dimension Door. So we're the leaders of the town now. The peasants still don't like us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on March 12, 2016, 11:35:23 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 09:31:28 pm

Yeah, it's clear that the designers intended you not be able to summon a dire rat inside someone's chest cavity and have it eat its way out. Likewise, no summoning a whale mid-air and dropping it on your enemies.

I just realised that technically those rules mean you cannot summon a whale in the ocean either, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 12, 2016, 11:43:57 pm

Technically that would be both an open location and a surface capable of supporting it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2016, 11:49:37 pm

If it has a swim speed, water counts as a surface capable of supporting it. Likewise, if it has a fly speed, mid-air counts as a valid summoning space. Only empty space is specifically ruled out, so no summoning minions in outer space sadly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 12, 2016, 11:50:45 pm

What if they have magical flight and do not breathe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arcvasti on March 12, 2016, 11:54:10 pm

So you could summon a celestial griffon or something a space above someone and then order them to stop flying/paralyze them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 13, 2016, 12:12:27 am

The only two types of creature capable of surviving without breathing are constructs and undead, and of those none of them are featured on the default list of available summoned creatures. There is a single alternative type of creature called a Daughter of the Dead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/daughter-of-the-dead) that could theoretically survive in space, so it's possible this one creature could fill that niche, but overall it's not worth worrying about given that the situation is never likely to arise in a real game.

As for summoning a griffon, it's actually a decent strategy against small non-flying creatures to get your summoned monster to grapple it and then fly up, dropping them for falling damage. It gets complex though, since a lot of the time you've got no idea how much a particular enemy weighs, which is important when you're figuring out if they exceed the weight limit for your flier to lift.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on March 13, 2016, 12:44:24 am

Summon Undead I

Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]

Level: Blackguard 1, cleric 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Components: V, S, F/DF

Casting Time: 1 round

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Effect: One summoned creature

Duration: 1 round/level

Saving Throw: None

Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like summon monsterI, except that you summon an undead creature.Summon undead I conjures one of thecreatures from the 1st-level list on the Summon Undead table. You choose which creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell. Summoned undead do not count toward the total Hit Dice of undead that you can control with animate dead or the other command undead abilities.

Focus: A tiny bag, a small (not lit) candle,and a carved bone from any humanoid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 13, 2016, 01:44:36 am

That's a 3.5e spell, not Pathfinder, and it's again not part of the core rules from when the original limitations for conjuration spells were created. Of those listed creatures, only the Allip and Shadow have magical flight too. Again, too narrow to consider worth bothering to add an exception for.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: DeKaFu on March 14, 2016, 04:08:00 pm

Due to recently reading through the Pathfinder bundle and approaching a time when I'll have more free time than friends or activities to fill them with, I'm starting to once again think about trying to join an online game of some sort. I've tried to get into tabletop RPGs before but never really had anything that lasted more than a couple wonky sessions, so I'm still a newbie.

So: quick question for knowledgeable people. When people do online games, what sort of format is it usually in? Specifically, is it usually typing-based, voice-chat-based, or both? Do people use any sort of special programs for it? I'd be looking for something session-based rather than play-by-post. I've got a hand injury, so if it was voice-based I'd be dealing with my crippling shyness, but if it was typing-based I'd be dealing with both that and also possibly crippling actual pain. Could maybe work around it depending on how helpful Dragon NaturallySpeaking wants to be, but that's always a bit of a crapshoot.

Can't start anything for a few weeks yet but figured I'd ask to get an idea if it's even possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 14, 2016, 09:58:55 pm

@DeKaFu: It depends on the group.  Some are text chat only, some are mixed, some are voice only, etc., etc..

Programs:Roll20, but there are Skype groups, Google Hangouts, etc..

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on March 15, 2016, 05:07:03 am

Actually, quick question: Is it possible to use Pathfinder monsters in 3.5e, and vice versa?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 15, 2016, 12:24:48 pm

Yes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on March 15, 2016, 12:47:02 pm

A very conditional yes...

Because the monsters are balanced differently AND some things don't transfer over.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 16, 2016, 03:29:13 am

@DeKa

I'm using Roll20 right now, which can be done text based but also readily supports voice, and video as well if you like. I personally prefer to have voice, but it's up to you.

I'm really quite impressed by Roll20 right now. It does a lot of stuff right.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 16, 2016, 11:20:51 am

Roll20 is great, we've been using it for everything.  It makes various rolls easy, even weird ones like World of Darkness:
{6d10!}>8
Roll 6d10 "exploding" on 10 (roll an extra dice for every 10, recursively).  Counts how many "successes" you get (8 9 or 10).
_{(Though it is screwy that they use > for "greater than OR EQUAL TO")}

We can also save common rolls as "macros" and use them with a single click.  I did that a lot for the 3.5e campaign...  It's programming but fairly straightforward.  If you want to get *fancy* it can access variables like your characters HP bar (or the other two optional bars, or other stats you add).

Apparently the map system is pretty nice, too.  Seemed like you create as many different maps as you want, with backgrounds you upload.  These persist, so we often went back to previous locations and only had to rearrange the pieces a bit.  Other times we wiped the board, like for random encounter maps.

Another neat feature about that persistence, though, is that the players can draw on the map with color pencil (and lines/shapes).  When we got bogged down in combat (some turns took upwards of 30 minutes thanks to Tome of Battle) we sometimes drew little comics about what was going on, or recent events.  It helped us stay involved instead of reading forums or something out of boredom.

Then weeks later we'd return to that map, and see the doodles off to the side and be reminded of what we were thinking at the time!  I have some screenshotted, as mementos.
Roll20 is great

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 17, 2016, 02:11:58 pm

So I think this week's session can be summarised as follows:

1) We killed a black dragon hatchling. To be more precise, the paladin borderline two-shotted it and the monk stole the kill. It was supposed to be an average challenge for a 3rd level party (we were 1st level). Behold the power of surprise rounds and high rolls!

2) Upon being told our next quest would involve travelling, the wizard bought two horses and a carriage. Our party is not exactly fantastic with money. I, meanwhile, did the obviously rational thing and bought a horse of my own, and a composite shortbow because I can't use a longbow on horseback. I'm sure there's nothing overkill about being able to select from three different bows and four kinds of arrows. >_>

3) We spent most of the session on shopping and levelling up. I eventually decided to stick with the ranged build, so I've got Weapon Focus: Longbow now, for running into other useful things.

Also, wow everything feels powerful in PF. I'm not sure exactly why, but I have like a +6 to ranged attack rolls at level two, which feels super high.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 17, 2016, 03:20:51 pm

So I got invited to my first real game on roll20, and one of the guys who is joining came up with the most ridiculous backstory ever. With my wizard I am going to be rolling with, a lot of shaking my head and going "why did I choose to stay with this guy" is going to happen, along with plenty more hilarity and chuckles

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on March 20, 2016, 02:54:58 pm

played my first ever game of d&d

i have some dumb backstory basically im a paranoid gnome wild sorcerer looking for revenge on the wizard that destroyed my village. party is a human monk, elf paladin, dwarf ranger, tiefling rogue and dwarf paladin. and me, obviously. this party was already lvl 3 so i meet up with the party somehow jadda jadda. i convince everyone to go to a nearby tower housing an order of knights to look for my wizard. they welcome us with open arms, i ask for the wizard and the leader of the order tells me where to look, but first we feast. drinking contests are had, three party members are basically puking on the ground. meanwhile our dwarves were getting high off soup in the kitchen. the next morning, the knights tell us that they want to hunt a manticore. we go with four knights on hippogriffs to kill it (all party members also have hippogriffs to ride), and three knights are killed basically instantly. the monk wants to mount the manticore but a combination of spells, arrows and assorted weapon abilities kill it relatively quickly. The corpse then falls down to some sort of plateau, and we need it's head. so we go down and there's two griffons that are sort of angry at us. i sling some magic missiles at them from behind the corpse and they're in general not much of a problem. the monk tries to mount one of them but gets thrown off and the griffon just fucks off. we then proceed to violently dismember the manticore and take the pieces. ("i cut off the head to show to the order!" "i'll take a patch of fur" "i cut off the spikes on the tail" "i'll take the tail" "i cut off some meat" "I CUT OFF THE LEGS AND TAKE THEM WITH ME" "I CUT OUT HIS HEART" etc). we go back and claim some loot for killing the manticore, garnering some strange looks from the various manticore bodyparts we are carrying, then feast again. as we're about to leave, the knights want to induct us into their order and after some discussion we say sure, figuring that we'll still be able to keep doing whatever. we go to the pinnacle of the tower and the knights ask us to kick some dudes off the tower as an initiation ritual. we say fuck no and all the knights begin fighting us. we don't actually have many problems killing them all, mostly because i managed to Shatter all of them for like 21 damage at the same time. so now we sort of have a nice-looking tower all to ourselves which is pretty cool.

was really fun :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 20, 2016, 02:59:57 pm

An elf paladin, huh.
Two paladins, huh!
With a tiefling lol

drinking contest with a dwarfy party lol

why does the monk want to mount enemies??

haha trophies
oh shit unexpected twist that the paladins couldn't have possibly allowed
Nice, tower got

What was up with those morons tho

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on March 20, 2016, 03:03:54 pm

it actually turned out to be some sort of cult instead of a knightly order ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

our dm is also pretty new so hey. still had a lot of fun though :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 20, 2016, 03:58:26 pm

Monks can get pretty decent with grappling. Shame most encounters end before they are in a position to do much with it.

Monks also have few ranged options, so attempting to mount the Manticore and Gryphon while they were grounded may have been the only option.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on March 20, 2016, 04:39:32 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 20, 2016, 03:58:26 pm

Monks can get pretty decent with grappling. Shame most encounters end before they are in a position to do much with it.

Monks also have few ranged options, so attempting to mount the Manticore and Gryphon while they were grounded may have been the only option.

For clarification, he tried to mount the manticore while we were having a derpy air battle. And almost fell to his death. Dude just really wanted a mount. Luckily for him we found two griffon eggs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 20, 2016, 05:09:31 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 20, 2016, 04:28:45 pm

You know, thinking about it I wonder if someone should make and maintain a list of people looking for games like D&D, pathfinder or some other tabletop game, just so that people starting a game can send PMs to potential players if they wanted to.

That would be useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on March 20, 2016, 07:07:12 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on March 20, 2016, 05:09:31 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 20, 2016, 04:28:45 pm

You know, thinking about it I wonder if someone should make and maintain a list of people looking for games like D&D, pathfinder or some other tabletop game, just so that people starting a game can send PMs to potential players if they wanted to.

That would be useful.

Yeah, that's a pretty good idea for sure.   I know I've missed a few games I'd have loved to play in because I don't check the forums religiously enough hah

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 20, 2016, 09:01:01 pm

What about a Google Doc/Sheet?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 20, 2016, 09:20:33 pm

Done. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cj_nyQVHDCtxb1_3Csz4mAZLAJDmx1AEbjjABgVEIdc/edit#gid=0) To jump on the list, put your name under the game you're interested in playing in, and if you want to add a new category, feel free to do so. I just typed in a few that I figured would be useful. Just don't delete anyone's name or catagory. If you fuck it up, don't try to fix it, just tell me, and I'll fix it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 20, 2016, 09:22:50 pm

I think your URL is a bit messed up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 20, 2016, 09:27:34 pm

Ah, yeah. That would be a problem. Fixed, and here's the link a second time. Link. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cj_nyQVHDCtxb1_3Csz4mAZLAJDmx1AEbjjABgVEIdc/edit#gid=0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 20, 2016, 09:27:44 pm

I'd be happy to add a functional link to the OP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 20, 2016, 09:32:06 pm

And done, it doesn't look very pretty, but I can never remember how to turn the link into a message.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 20, 2016, 09:34:14 pm

[url=url here]link text[/url]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 20, 2016, 09:34:51 pm

I would appreciate if someone could put me under 3.5, Pathfinder and/or 5e, because an infuriating set of circumstances that involves not having the keyboard appear in-app after opening an email prevents me from editing it myself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on March 20, 2016, 10:47:55 pm

Since Dark Heresy is listed on the doc, how about the other 40k RPGs?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 20, 2016, 11:09:14 pm

Feel free to add them. Also, I don't think we're doing a line per person, but if that's how you want to do it, go ahead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 21, 2016, 12:32:20 pm

Every time I think I got a good idea, I run head first into a wall.

Monk/Kineticist won't work. I took Monk to have a way to bypass DR. By my math, I don't even need to worry about DR with the damage output I can pull off with just one empowered blast. And it's even more damaging than a flurry of blows, assuming all punches hit. At least I get permanent Freedom of Movement at level 13 with this archetype. And evasion is nice, too.

But the Monk abilities are pretty much useless to me. I don't see myself using them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 21, 2016, 01:01:33 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 21, 2016, 12:32:20 pm

Every time I think I got a good idea, I run head first into a wall.

Monk/Kineticist won't work. I took it to have a way to bypass DR. By my math, I don't even need to worry about DR with the damage output I can pull off with just one empowered blast. And it's even more damaging than a flurry of blows, assuming all punches hit. At least I get permanent Freedom of Movement at level 13 with this archetype. And evasion is nice, too.

So... what's the problem here?
You doing tons of damage doesn't seem like a huge issue, to be honest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 21, 2016, 01:02:46 pm

Class synergy. They just don't mesh that well. I wouldn't use my Monk-half of the Gestalt.

At least it wasn't as bad as when I tried Barbarian/Kineticist. Many things went wrong there.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can't use spells or spell-like abilities while raging, for one.

Barbarian Rage Powers are generally worded poorly, and lead me to believe I was gaining benefits that didn't exist, for another. Dragon Totem says that you gain an amount of energy resistance to a particular element equal to double your amount of DR, and for each Totem Rage Power in the Dragon line you had, you would gain 2 DR. Except it actually means that your effective DR increases by 2 to determine the amount of resistance you get.

Plus I kept forgetting to use Rage.

And during the DM-switch, the new DM banned stuff that the old DM allowed.

Plus I was using Dazzling Display with my Kinetic Blast, even though you can't do that, since you are never considered to be holding, wielding, or gripping the blast, and DD's description has those words in it.

I was also able to fly and use Gather Energy at the same time at one point. The rules say that you must have all appendages free to Gather Energy. Frog-like races must have their tongue in the air. If your race has a tail, it must be going. Got wings? Can't fly while Gathering Energy. Technically, by that ruling, we should all flop on the floor and spasm, since we need our legs free.

Reminds me a bit of the ruling on how Burn works if you are immune to non-lethal. Originally in this scenario, you couldn't take Burn at all, but it was changed so that you take one negative level instead. Except as written, it can be interpreted as you being forced to take one negative level per level.

Now I'm wondering. If you are immune to both non-lethal damage and to negative levels, then how would Burn work?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 23, 2016, 02:19:34 pm

Well, yes. They don't really have any splat books, so they need to sell something.

That said, I can't PM you .pdfs. That'd be illegal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on March 23, 2016, 06:31:54 pm

I can appreciate that.

And, I repeat, I can't link you a full .pdf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 23, 2016, 07:56:30 pm

You heard him say he can't link you a full pdf, right?  I'm not sure you understand what he's saying.  He can't link you the pdf.

I don't know, maybe you ought to PM him about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on March 23, 2016, 08:12:31 pm

...He didn't ask to be linked to a pdf?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 23, 2016, 08:13:24 pm

Exactly.

I'm making sure that he understands the state of affairs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 23, 2016, 08:27:09 pm

The wood. It is knocking.

Not surprised the 5esrd is pretty bare-bones. It's still a new-ish site, and is maintained by the same guy who maintains the Pathfinder D20PFSRD.

D20 can be a pain to navigate at times. More than a few things you can only reach by knowing the url. Plus all the third-party stuff, and the renaming of many things to avoid using Words^TM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 24, 2016, 02:30:27 am

I'm not sure whether to share these here or in Tabletop Gaming, since this is the "share your experiences" thread and the other isn't really.

Soooooo our gangrel player kinda got in a streetfight with 5 gangsters and started losing, and entered a anger rage.
There's blood EVERYWHERE
When the claws came out she suddenly stopped rolling crappy and started getting exploding rolls- leading to strikes for 7-8 aggravated damage, IE explosions of gore.  They got a couple of shots off before trying to sprint away- nope.

This is Vampire: the Requiem instead of Vampire: the Masquerade, but this is still... bad.  She came out of the frenzy to a street covered in blood and giblets, and took the only logical course of action:  Diving into the nearest sewer and calling my character, because she was completely lost.  Didn't mention the slaughter yet.

So she come in through the hotel boiler room, covered in blood and sewage, and dashes through the lobby.  Has a very awkward elevator ride with a terrified man.  Knocks on our hotel door.
"Hey so why were you in the sewer oh FUCK WHY ARE YOU COVERED IN BLOOD"
"It's fine!  It's fine!  I'm getting a shower it's fine!"  totally in shock

My cool cyberpunk Mekhet character knows just what to do in this situation:  PANIC.  Basically keeps repeating "we're so fucked".  A few minutes later we look out the door and realize there's a trail of blood sewage leading right to us.  And people are looking at it.  8 people.  She goes out with a mop. 
"Oh uh a kid had bad diarrhea, nothing to see here!"
"Yeah we're janitors, move along!"

I remember I have the mystic power of Obfuscate, the first level of which can hide items, vehicles, or even "negative spaces" like hallways.  If I succeed, the witnesses should make up excuses for what they thought they saw and why it's no longer there.  But there are 8 of them.  I boost my vampiric mind with blood, and expend a willpoint in furious concentration, moving my die pool up to... 3.  Odds of success: 65%.  Success: no. 
"we're so fucked, dude we need to call this in like now, maybe we should call my sire?"
"noooo not him!"  (Earlier that same night my sire warned us about letting the beast get too much control, he's high humanity)
"oh yeah good point...  how about yours?"  (Her sire is a psychopath who had us murder someone in cold blood for secret reasons.  My resulting loss of humanity is what prompted the earlier scolding from my sire)

We call him up and I calmly explain the situation.  "We're fucked!  Fucked!  There's blood and poop and it leads right to our door and and..." I don't actually know anything about the fight, so I hand the phone to her.  Basically he tells us to relax, this counts as her one freebie, there's a good chance the Prince won't execute her just yet.  Probably just get her killed on a suicide mission.  It's all cool or whatever, just call it in NOW, bye *goes back to watching soccer*.

So we call it in to the "cleaner", a nosferatu we met after the murder earlier (as a formality, everything went fine with that job).  This time we answer each question basically the opposite. 
"Emergency?"  "YES YES" 
"Masquerade Violation?"  "Uhhhh yeah uh probably a lot"
"Witnesses" "Like, 10?  Maybe more?"
"Is this related to the police traffic about gunshots?" "Gunshots?  Oh right the gunshots"
Speaking of, police are pulling up to the hotel during this.
"Cleanup teams are mobilizing.  The sheriff will apprehend you soon, stay put.  Be glad you called this in."

The crazy thing is, we had to stop periodically for fits of uncontrollable laughter.  We had gone through three sessions of tense stealth action, navigating deadly social situations, and grimly feeding on nightlife without ever getting caught.  Then this happened and just...  all the tension came out.  None of us could believe it, I honestly sorta expected us to roll it back but no.  We sorta figured the Malkavian would be the one to pull something like this, but that player couldn't make it tonight!

Though we did have fun with a mission to change out the employees at the gangrel's former place of employment, a bar.  Our DND parties had a... history, with bars and taverns (they have a tendency to burn or shatter).  We ended up sneaking in without a hitch, planning to steal the safe to bankrupt the owner.  But with a lucky roll I managed to crack the safe instead, getting a cool $6000 (cash doesn't exactly exist in World of Darkness but the gangrel got to buy one nice thing).  Then we realized we left fingerprints everywhere, so I got the idea to pour alcohol all over ever surface we touched.  Which we figured would help ensure that the employees quit.  Particularly since we used up all the goldschlager first.

I left a paper question mark in the safe, like the Riddler.  Except drenched in booze.
SOMEHOW the place never caught on fire.  And we never figured out why her sire wanted us to change out the employees (except to make it possible for her to go inside without her coworkers noticing she's not dead).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 24, 2016, 07:00:57 am

Welp, our rogue is dead. Long live the rogue!

After two deaths in a row, he's decided to retire the character and roll a new one. All will be happy to know I looted his corpse upon learning this.

Annoyingly the player of the rogue in question has failed to respond to any emails requesting his character's current item list. Bah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 24, 2016, 08:08:15 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 24, 2016, 07:00:57 am

Welp, our rogue is dead. Long live the rogue!

After two deaths in a row, he's decided to retire the character and roll a new one. All will be happy to know I looted his corpse upon learning this.

Annoyingly the player of the rogue in question has failed to respond to any emails requesting his character's current item list. Bah.

He probbably needs to rewrite it so it reads ""+2 gloves, +4 dagger, 300 gp ruby", rather than "Alan's dagger, Daves glove, jJacks 300gp ruby."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 24, 2016, 08:45:44 am

On the plus side, I keep detailed notes about every item every character has taken from the party loot, so it's not a complete loss. I just wanted to confirm if anything has been sold or purchased before I go ahead and assume I have it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 26, 2016, 01:09:50 am

So I've started playing a game of D&D with an animator on youtube I watch. He originally asked me to DM, but took it up for himself because he's never done it before and wanted to try. I decided to roll with Carver Spellmeyer, the arrogant wizard, and we have, in our party, Dragg the horny bard, Wilneas the snobby noble cleric, and <insert name> the dragonborn barbarian ((he has yet to show up for a session)). we've been doing this on roll20 since we're all over the place, and its my first time actually using it properly, so its been quite the experience. We're playing 5e, so its nothing too broken. But apparently, my talk of how good I can be playing (such as tell him about my previous ordeals as Cliff Whitefang the dwarf thrower and so on) he decided to add on a bit of difficulty.

So we started the game with a very awkward conversation between me, Dragg and Wilneas while the barbarian sleeps, which involved them talking about how my familiar just defeated a fish that the DM said was an epic battle, but because me and the bard weren't looking, and the cleric was below deck (he came up because he heard the fish battle) we talked up a bit, and then the cleric starts calling us commoners already.

I tell the bard where I'm going and then proceed to, as my character would do, go down the road to the next town. The cleric follows me because he doesn't want to travel alone and the bard is following me because he thinks I'm his friend. I proceeded to question why they were following me the whole time, and while that happened, we ran into a group of mercenaries, called Los Gayapos Payosos, who were convinced that the bard was named Wally and that he was wanted. Despite telling them that Dragg was not the man he was looking for, I cast Charm Person on the leader and actually managed to convince him then that he wasn't Wally, pretty much skipping the first encounter due to how adamant he was (going as far as to rebuke our remark of saying he wasn't wally by saying "That's what Wally WOULD have said!" and then threatening me and the cleric. Due to the DM's disappointment, he hinted we will be seeing them again)

We make it to town, and my character has to get a key from the bartender. While I'm waiting for him to not be busy, the cleric goes to try and talk to a crazy old man and the bard tries to talk to the seductive woman in the corner. She proceeds to insult his manhood, which causes him to talk to the only other woman in the place, and I'm watching this all take place laughing.

I explain to the bartender that I need the key that he has in order to continue my quest to find my teacher, and that I've been followed by the "two jesters: the snob and the fool" and immediately, the cleric hears me and comes over angrily, attempts to intimidate me by saying "Excuse me, but was there something you wanted to tell me, you uncultured swine?" and gets a 17 on the roll and I roll a 21 as my own save, which caused me to turn around to him, look him dead in the eye and say "I apologize. I've been followed by two JESTERS today, so you can tell my mood is not at its best", which causes him to go COMPLETELY flustered and flash his signet ring and say he's nobility. I then tell him I was a wizard trained by perhaps one of the best wizards in all the land and that his sign of nobility holds no meaning to me. He gets more and more flustered at that and he tells me to hold my tongue and, because he is a half elf, I am trying SO HARD to not drop the racist remarks since not many people like half-elves by calling him a half-breed, so instead, I say to him "What would a High and Mighty snob such as yourself do to me, break a fingernail?" and he just loses it, causing him to draw his weapon and the barkeep breaking up the fight by giving us a discount of drinks. We both order some wine and I roast him again for drinking it right from the bottle when I drink from a glass by saying "sophisticated as always". I also at this point ask for that key and he goes off to get it.

So Wilneas gets drunk and passes out downing the whole bottle and the bard proceeds to talk to the lady, who tells him about a local goblin problem and that her friend has went missing and if he's dead, she wants something to remember him by. So the bard agrees without hesitation and asks me to come along, with the promise of getting paid. I tell him that now I have my key, I have no real reason to stay here, but if I'm getting paid, I have no reason to disagree. The barkeep overhears this and comes up and tells us that it was funny I should mention the goblins because they stole my key that morning. Carver just looks at the bartender with a sharp look of disapproval and facepalms as he realizes that NOW it has become his problem.

Bard wakes up the cleric, I find out he's a lightweight and I steal his coinpurse and give it to the bartender for safekeeping when he agrees to join us and passes out again after I give him more booze... And buy ourselves three rooms at his expense.

Next morning and one hangover later (and giving the cleric his money back), we set off to the goblins, and we start our first real encounter off smoothly: the cleric tries to stealth into the room and rolls a 2, causing all four goblins to turn and attack him. Before he even gets a turn, the cleric is dropped to 0 by the four goblins. The bard kills one and I have to keep the cleric alive, so I can't attack the cluster of goblins with burning hands effectively, so I cast sleep and knock out two of the three goblins (one of which was trying to sound an alarm). The last goblin attacks me and ruins my nice robes (as the DM put it) and then I kill him using magic missile and almost kill another goblin. By now, the cleric has failed two death saves and has one more save. We literally cheered when it came up 16, because that means he didn't die yet and we ended the encounter. I proceed to try and medicine check him, but everything is stacked against us I see as me and the bard failed our stabilize checks. The DM was nice enough to say that we get him back up afterwards, because we did a "what if" roll and found out that the cleric would have died if he was given another roll.

We proceed down to another corridor and hear a goblin in a room where he's grumbling angrily to himself and the cleric, again, tries to sneak in and falls flat on his face as he fumbles. The goblin in the room just turns and looks at him and ignores him, cleaning more skulls. I start talking to him and he's convinced, in his feeling of worthlessness as a goblin, I convince him to get a better job, and the cleric takes it upon himself to hire the goblin to carry his stuff, to which the goblin agrees.

We go into the next room, which is the final room, and everyone fails miserably except me again, with me taking out two goblins on my own and the bard killing another after fumbling a stealth roll and announcing he was coming in by slamming the door open. I get dropped to 1hp again, ruining my clothing more (I told my DM that the next cantrip I'm getting is mending) and the cleric heals me. The goblin buddy we made, kills one of the goblins himself before I cast burning hands, and then he proceeds to kill the goblin leader and stab him over and over for bullying him and treating him like garbage.

So in the end, I find my key, we bury the girl's friend, find his ring and some gems, about 100 silver and a magical fragile scimitar.

We head back to the tavern and Dragg immediately goes over to the woman who insulted him earlier and says "WHO'S THE MAN NOW!? I DEALT WITH THE GOBLINS!" and I use minor illusion to spell out the words NOT THIS GUY over his head, which caused the woman to give me a smile and a giggle, and then gives the bard another shot, even though he completely ignores her after that.

So, overall, probably the worst "first encounter" I've ever had to fix, got a goblin buddy who's apparently going to become a first level goblin fighter (since he did most of the work in the second encounter with me) as what the DM is thinking, and a very enjoyable game overall. Its great to finally be in a game without having a min maxer or someone mad at me for my backstory

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 26, 2016, 12:28:04 pm

Bravo, very nice.  Thanks for sharing highmax.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 26, 2016, 01:45:45 pm

That was a fun read.

---

Some of my friends wanted to play a 5e campaign, so I'm playing a warlock - it's one of two classes that doesn't feel like I've played a lot, feel very samey, or have stuff that I really hate 5e's take on (if you're a fighter, you're a walking weapon shop. Also, if you're an archer you wear leather). The other one is cleric, but the party is short on blasting power.

We initially were going to use 4d6 drop lowest for ability scores, but the rest of the group was dissuaded from this when I produced 16/15/14/14/13/4 and was going to build into MAXIMUM GLASS CANNON. We did a regular point buy after that. :P

So far, it's really showing that the DM is new and the party is pretty new. :-\ Between that and the fact that I am not convinced of 5e, I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, I don't want to ditch them, but on the other, I don't know if I want to invest too much time in a not-that-fun campaign.

I'm sure it's not helping that I'm playing a Pathfinder campaign with a great DM on the side...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 26, 2016, 02:01:02 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 26, 2016, 01:45:45 pm

That was a fun read.

---

Some of my friends wanted to play a 5e campaign, so I'm playing a warlock - it's one of two classes that doesn't feel like I've played a lot, feel very samey, or have stuff that I really hate 5e's take on (if you're a fighter, you're a walking weapon shop. Also, if you're an archer you wear leather). The other one is cleric, but the party is short on blasting power.

We initially were going to use 4d6 drop lowest for ability scores, but the rest of the group was dissuaded from this when I produced 16/15/14/14/13/4 and was going to build into MAXIMUM GLASS CANNON. We did a regular point buy after that. :P

So far, it's really showing that the DM is new and the party is pretty new. :-\ Between that and the fact that I am not convinced of 5e, I'm kind of torn. On the one hand, I don't want to ditch them, but on the other, I don't know if I want to invest too much time in a not-that-fun campaign.

I'm sure it's not helping that I'm playing a Pathfinder campaign with a great DM on the side...

Its a huge leap in pathfinder into 5e. You have to have a DM that knows the edition well enough to actually do it. Its like a better version of 4e, but its still watered down. I'm playing a wizard as stated earlier, and I lack the control spells that the 4e wizard had and the God spells that pathfinder has.

I can enjoy 5e because I like the simple style, but if you have the right DM who's willing to go the extra mile, its awesome.

Also, cna someone explain to me when you would ever use an investigation check over a perception check?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 26, 2016, 02:32:05 pm

Investigation is (to my knowledge) looking for evidence of... something, as opposed to just looking for something.
Which makes no sense, but.. I guess it's DM's choice?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 26, 2016, 02:57:18 pm

I'd say investigate is also being able to translate what you see into meaningful information.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 26, 2016, 05:25:33 pm

My DM is using investigation checks instead of perception checks to look through piles of stuff for anything useful. I thought that was a perception check?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 26, 2016, 05:28:53 pm

Apparently, Investigation is indeed detective-style evidence gathering. Your DM probably got confused by the undescriptive name.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 26, 2016, 06:12:32 pm

Yeah, Perception tells you that there's a smudge on the wall.

Investigation tells you that the smudge is identical to the smudge at the last crime scene and that for the smudge to have been left the smudger would have had to stand in a certain spot and that you should look there for bootprints.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 26, 2016, 06:31:52 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on March 26, 2016, 01:09:50 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So I've started playing a game of D&D with an animator on youtube I watch. He originally asked me to DM, but took it up for himself because he's never done it before and wanted to try. I decided to roll with Carver Spellmeyer, the arrogant wizard, and we have, in our party, Dragg the horny bard, Wilneas the snobby noble cleric, and <insert name> the dragonborn barbarian ((he has yet to show up for a session)). we've been doing this on roll20 since we're all over the place, and its my first time actually using it properly, so its been quite the experience. We're playing 5e, so its nothing too broken. But apparently, my talk of how good I can be playing (such as tell him about my previous ordeals as Cliff Whitefang the dwarf thrower and so on) he decided to add on a bit of difficulty.

So we started the game with a very awkward conversation between me, Dragg and Wilneas while the barbarian sleeps, which involved them talking about how my familiar just defeated a fish that the DM said was an epic battle, but because me and the bard weren't looking, and the cleric was below deck (he came up because he heard the fish battle) we talked up a bit, and then the cleric starts calling us commoners already.

I tell the bard where I'm going and then proceed to, as my character would do, go down the road to the next town. The cleric follows me because he doesn't want to travel alone and the bard is following me because he thinks I'm his friend. I proceeded to question why they were following me the whole time, and while that happened, we ran into a group of mercenaries, called Los Gayapos Payosos, who were convinced that the bard was named Wally and that he was wanted. Despite telling them that Dragg was not the man he was looking for, I cast Charm Person on the leader and actually managed to convince him then that he wasn't Wally, pretty much skipping the first encounter due to how adamant he was (going as far as to rebuke our remark of saying he wasn't wally by saying "That's what Wally WOULD have said!" and then threatening me and the cleric. Due to the DM's disappointment, he hinted we will be seeing them again)

We make it to town, and my character has to get a key from the bartender. While I'm waiting for him to not be busy, the cleric goes to try and talk to a crazy old man and the bard tries to talk to the seductive woman in the corner. She proceeds to insult his manhood, which causes him to talk to the only other woman in the place, and I'm watching this all take place laughing.

I explain to the bartender that I need the key that he has in order to continue my quest to find my teacher, and that I've been followed by the "two jesters: the snob and the fool" and immediately, the cleric hears me and comes over angrily, attempts to intimidate me by saying "Excuse me, but was there something you wanted to tell me, you uncultured swine?" and gets a 17 on the roll and I roll a 21 as my own save, which caused me to turn around to him, look him dead in the eye and say "I apologize. I've been followed by two JESTERS today, so you can tell my mood is not at its best", which causes him to go COMPLETELY flustered and flash his signet ring and say he's nobility. I then tell him I was a wizard trained by perhaps one of the best wizards in all the land and that his sign of nobility holds no meaning to me. He gets more and more flustered at that and he tells me to hold my tongue and, because he is a half elf, I am trying SO HARD to not drop the racist remarks since not many people like half-elves by calling him a half-breed, so instead, I say to him "What would a High and Mighty snob such as yourself do to me, break a fingernail?" and he just loses it, causing him to draw his weapon and the barkeep breaking up the fight by giving us a discount of drinks. We both order some wine and I roast him again for drinking it right from the bottle when I drink from a glass by saying "sophisticated as always". I also at this point ask for that key and he goes off to get it.

So Wilneas gets drunk and passes out downing the whole bottle and the bard proceeds to talk to the lady, who tells him about a local goblin problem and that her friend has went missing and if he's dead, she wants something to remember him by. So the bard agrees without hesitation and asks me to come along, with the promise of getting paid. I tell him that now I have my key, I have no real reason to stay here, but if I'm getting paid, I have no reason to disagree. The barkeep overhears this and comes up and tells us that it was funny I should mention the goblins because they stole my key that morning. Carver just looks at the bartender with a sharp look of disapproval and facepalms as he realizes that NOW it has become his problem.

Bard wakes up the cleric, I find out he's a lightweight and I steal his coinpurse and give it to the bartender for safekeeping when he agrees to join us and passes out again after I give him more booze... And buy ourselves three rooms at his expense.

Next morning and one hangover later (and giving the cleric his money back), we set off to the goblins, and we start our first real encounter off smoothly: the cleric tries to stealth into the room and rolls a 2, causing all four goblins to turn and attack him. Before he even gets a turn, the cleric is dropped to 0 by the four goblins. The bard kills one and I have to keep the cleric alive, so I can't attack the cluster of goblins with burning hands effectively, so I cast sleep and knock out two of the three goblins (one of which was trying to sound an alarm). The last goblin attacks me and ruins my nice robes (as the DM put it) and then I kill him using magic missile and almost kill another goblin. By now, the cleric has failed two death saves and has one more save. We literally cheered when it came up 16, because that means he didn't die yet and we ended the encounter. I proceed to try and medicine check him, but everything is stacked against us I see as me and the bard failed our stabilize checks. The DM was nice enough to say that we get him back up afterwards, because we did a "what if" roll and found out that the cleric would have died if he was given another roll.

We proceed down to another corridor and hear a goblin in a room where he's grumbling angrily to himself and the cleric, again, tries to sneak in and falls flat on his face as he fumbles. The goblin in the room just turns and looks at him and ignores him, cleaning more skulls. I start talking to him and he's convinced, in his feeling of worthlessness as a goblin, I convince him to get a better job, and the cleric takes it upon himself to hire the goblin to carry his stuff, to which the goblin agrees.

We go into the next room, which is the final room, and everyone fails miserably except me again, with me taking out two goblins on my own and the bard killing another after fumbling a stealth roll and announcing he was coming in by slamming the door open. I get dropped to 1hp again, ruining my clothing more (I told my DM that the next cantrip I'm getting is mending) and the cleric heals me. The goblin buddy we made, kills one of the goblins himself before I cast burning hands, and then he proceeds to kill the goblin leader and stab him over and over for bullying him and treating him like garbage.

So in the end, I find my key, we bury the girl's friend, find his ring and some gems, about 100 silver and a magical fragile scimitar.

We head back to the tavern and Dragg immediately goes over to the woman who insulted him earlier and says "WHO'S THE MAN NOW!? I DEALT WITH THE GOBLINS!" and I use minor illusion to spell out the words NOT THIS GUY over his head, which caused the woman to give me a smile and a giggle, and then gives the bard another shot, even though he completely ignores her after that.

So, overall, probably the worst "first encounter" I've ever had to fix, got a goblin buddy who's apparently going to become a first level goblin fighter (since he did most of the work in the second encounter with me) as what the DM is thinking, and a very enjoyable game overall. Its great to finally be in a game without having a min maxer or someone mad at me for my backstory

Sounds like everyone had fun. You're all playing to your class stereotypes, but that's not a bad thing. If there's one thing I'd recommend it's that you try to encourage team cooperation rather than antagonize everyone else. Friendly ribbing is fine, but when players are constantly spending the game at each other's throats, it quickly leads to the party splitting. For example, the bard might make a big show of pretending to be the nobleman cleric's herald, announcing his arrival before he enters the room, singing his praises in song whenever he uses bardic music, and informing any attractive young women looking to gain the hand of a nobleman that he's responsible for testing the quality of any prospective brides in the bedroom. I typically try to foster the feeling in any game I play that it's the players vs. the DM, not other players.

The other thing I hope doesn't end up happening is that the goblin you've recruited ends up becoming a Mary-Sue DMNPC. Having an NPC in the party is a great way for the DM to introduce story hooks and give out relevant information when needed, but they should never replace the role of a PC character. It sounds like the DM intends to turn this goblin into a cohort with PC class levels. It would be far better to have it take an NPC class such as Warrior if such a thing exists yet in this system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 26, 2016, 07:17:57 pm

So far, it's a standard goblin boss.


And it's mostly in good fun, and I don't try to argue too much, but we do fuck with each other. I know my wizard is supposed to be arrogant, but I know these are real people, and this is a party we have to deal with. So far, it's been a case of "crap, NOW I'm involved" which is slowly becoming "ok, we work pretty well together"

My only gripe is me and the bard rolled a nat 1 on the hit die on level up

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on March 26, 2016, 08:06:34 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 26, 2016, 01:45:45 pm

(if you're a fighter, you're a walking weapon shop. Also, if you're an archer you wear leather)

Okay, you're going to have to explain what you mean by these. For the first one, I'm guessing you're saying fighters can use any weapon pretty well (though fighting-style tends to make people focus on a specific type in my experience). And nothing about playing any archer-build restricts you to wearing leather, except maybe if you're a pure rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 26, 2016, 08:42:19 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 26, 2016, 06:30:57 pm

I want to try running a pathfinder game with my real life friends. I have all the pdfs from that humble bundle, but there's an issue in the way of 'How the fuck do I get them to my friend's house in a room without a computer and without me or my friends owning a laptop'

Anyone got any ideas? Printing's a little out of the picture, given the absurd size of the 'books' (Wish to God I could have got them in book form instead, but I guess that would have been expensive), and with the number/size of the files I'm not convinced we have enough room on our ipad.

I don't know very much about *Apple* mobile devices, but I'm seeing indications that you could use a cheap SD card.  Though you might need a USB SD card reader, it wasn't obvious.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 26, 2016, 09:49:31 pm

Okay, another help request post!

I'm designing a quest chain, CR should be for party in the level 5-8 range. Premise is that they find an entrance to a multi-level labyrinth.

I'd love to hear some ideas from other people here about fun features, traps, encounters or other nifty stuff. Basically, I can look up level appropriate monsters or traps and put them in the maze, but that doesn't really make the whole thing very interesting as when there's a story behind the encounter.

Here's my ideas so far:

Entrance to labyrinth is a hedge maze. Inspiration image below:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291/LindaBarnetteSeaman/Poems/TheMaze-2.jpg)

I've got no current ideas for why the party would want to go into this maze yet, aside from the usual adventure hook fare. Either there's a magical MacGuffin somewhere inside the party wants, or some important NPC got lost inside. A few better ideas would be welcome.

Entrance is guarded, possibly by minotaur with indifferent attitude per diplomacy rules, with this NPC used to provide dialogue or warnings as appropriate if the party does not initiate combat, subject to diplomacy or intimidate.

Possibility exists for party with access to level 3 spells to have means of flight to bypass aboveground portion of maze completely, so either plan for this or have either incentive not to do so or reward for accomplishing this section without flight. Ideas here would be good. Possibility also exists for the party to simply cut a path through the maze, so having some form of discouragement to do so would be welcome.

Upper hedge maze can be populated with a variety of creatures such as animated objects or awakened plants, or even possibly fey creatures depending on the theme.

Large manor house/miniature castle at far end of maze could offer a few different options. Immediate thought is for it to be haunted, thus offering the possibility of undead leaking into the maze at night. Other options include some form of fey enchantment over the noble's household trapping them inside.

Lower labyrinth could be accessed through a variety of means, for example slay the four guardians, swim through the well at the maze centre, etc.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 26, 2016, 09:58:37 pm

I don't have any ideas for anything else (except possibly having the entire dungeon be devoid of enemies, save the occasional floor mimic, just to fuck with them), but you could have the Magic MacGuffin be guarded by a [insert nigh-impossible-to-beat neutral creature] that gets mad at the party if they bypass the upper maze. Those who take the easy path are not worthy, after all.
But you might want to supplement with other loot if you do that, since they won't be happy about being screwed out of loot even if they don't deserve it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 26, 2016, 10:34:17 pm

Typically I try to have a quest chain with encounters starting 1 CR lower than the party level, building up to 1-2 CR higher for the final encounter. Then I include an additional 'danger room' encounter that can only be accessed after the main quest is complete and/or requires backtracking or considerable effort to reach, which is 3+ CRs higher than the party, with the explicit warning given to the PCs that this is extremely dangerous to attempt but also contains a very big optional bonus reward. They can choose to attempt it while underleveled, come back later to try when they're stronger, or skip it completely.

I think I've got an idea for the BBEG. A Blackwood Satyr (http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=2285) has interrupted a noble's party and kidnapped several attractive women, descending into the labyrinth and placing them under his thrall. His spell-like abilities should give plenty of mechanical support to his actions, and provides a means for the group to rescue a grateful noble and get a hefty reward and NPC contact.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 26, 2016, 11:49:34 pm

Hm. If you can justify it with whatever you have planned to fill out the complement of living enemies, it might be interesting to do something not entirely unlike what SB suggested. Make the maze and manor more of a passive threat. Fill both with illusions designed to string the party out and lead them around fruitlessly. Work a subtle pattern into the illusions which, if they bother to investigate more closely, will give them hints on how to reach the center. Make the manor much the same, but with pit/magic traps that eject people who fall into them back out into the maze. Have at most a few weak enemies in the maze and upper levels of the manor.

Basically, that gives a reward for cleverness: if they traverse the maze honestly and thoughtfully, they'll be able to short-cut to the labyrinth without having to deal with the manor. The use of spirit-flavored undead is a good thought, that would mix well with the unease of a maze and manor full of annoying but not incredibly dangerous traps. If they fly over to the manor, make sure the hedges are high enough that they need to descend all the way from a high tower. If they do a Nanoha Bypass on the maze, they still have to enter the manor and find the main entrance to the labyrinth.

In other words, every reasonable approach, if done well, will result in an appropriate "reward" (in the sense of bypassing segments of the maze/manor component).

Once they're in the labyrinth, switch over to a more combat-oriented approach with challenging monsters and more dangerous traps.

As an additional bit of bonus fun, doing the maze and manor as that sort of mind-twisting haunted house bullshit means that the party gets to have fun (if you go with that hook) escorting the people they're there to rescue out of the maze. If you like, you can set things up so that the higher-tier encounter can be released if they're too destructive or poke their noses into it despite the warnings, turning it into a race to get the rescuees out. For flavor, maybe make it a much more powerful undead bound to a crypt beneath the manor, which explains why it doesn't keep chasing beyond the maze. That also leaves plenty of room for more plot hooks to flow out of if and when they come back to deal with it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 27, 2016, 12:35:34 am

You could start the quest by saying there's a disturbingly high amounts of magic emanating from the manor, and when approached from the sky, something tries to keep you away. The hedges are 30ft high with bramble in between them. They also take a long time to burn through due to how thick they are and the fact they are enchanted with abjuration spells that are dispelled once everything in the upper maze is killed.

The entrance guardian is a robed figure, with impossible to see facial features, who warns them about going in, and if they try to fly over with him there, he will cause a gravity-like ability where he forces them onto the ground before they reach the maze. He will say something is hidden under the manor and is sealed, and the party cannot turn back if they plan to go in and go too far. If the party still wishes to go in, he will test them in two ways: Mind and Body. He will ask two riddles, followed by a third one that involves him asking if the party will kill something knowing that what they were doing was their job. If the party answers yes or no, he will accept the answer. He will test their body by fighting the party, but don't give him an HP amount. Make him cause nothing but attacks that deal non-lethal damage (don't tell them its non-lethal) and knock out the party members one by one until half of the party is knocked out or until they retreat. If they retreat, he will heal the fallen and tell them to leave if they do not strengthen their resolve. If he defeats most of the party, he will let them in as he believes that they can stop whatever is inside due to their resolve alone.

I would say have the maze on the upper part be filled with fey creatures that can pass through the walls of the maze without problem, and that they are able to be reasoned with as long as the party doesn't kill any of them, but they will attack, as they are guardians of the lower caves. They are trying to keep something in, and because its been a long while, the fey creatures actually forgot whats inside; they just know its bad. If reasoned with, or if they're genocided, they will either give/have on them a page with a riddle. This riddle will solve a puzzle that will discern certain patterns in the lower maze that have secrets, shortcuts, or alternate pathways (some riddle that pertains to a certain carving that can be interacted with by doing what is listed in the riddle, like rubbing blood on it, touching it with silver, etc.). The fey will also have ranged attacks/spells/abilities that can attack those who fly. There are also a few places in the maze for those inside the maze who will spot indents in the floors which hold loot from defeated enemies. The fey don't care if it is taken, but will bargain for the location of its whereabouts. These spots can not be found flying as they are small details and the hedges are 30ft high as said before.

The manor has a basement that is locked with two arcane locks that require keys to open them. The door is solid adamantine with magical wards to make it nigh indestructible, with an inscription that reads that a powerful enemy, known only as the Fallen One in the writings, is locked under there and that opening the gate is the bad idea. Those with detect magic can see the magic that was radiating the place is coming out of the basement, and seems to be oozing out of the keyholes and cracks on the door.

Navigating the house plays around a lot of traps that you wouldn't find in a regular house, with the house's goal is ultimately prevent you from getting the keys. The first key is in the master bedroom and the second key is in the kitchen. I don't know if you'll have to edit this, but the house is riddled with ghosts, specters and other ethereal/incorporeal undead. The one guarding the kitchen key is a poltergeist that throws knives, cleavers, pots and pans at the players, and the one guarding the key in the bedroom sits at a poker/card table and demands that in order to get the key, you must play his game (your choice). The players can fight him, but expect that he will be harder. The Gambler (as I will call him) will gamble the players for their souls in a game of your choice, but not at once; he will offer them the key in six pieces, and their souls will be split into two pieces per player (or more or less for both, depending on how merciful or cruel you feel). The players do not lose their souls, even if they lose their chips until the last chip is taken. They can opt out at any time and return, but the chips will remain on whatever they have. If he holds the full part of one persons soul when they opt out, they lose their soul, but it can be won back. The party loses if everyone loses their soul. There will be ample artwork loot here, and the ghosts and such that wander the mansion were people who were trying to get into the lower labyrinth, save for the poltergeist who was a spirit conjured to protect the key and the gambler who is the former owner of the manor before the labyrinths were built (the gambler will explain this is talked to while playing his game who is happy to explain. He will not say anything about the labyrinths or what dwells in them, as he truly does not know. he will not even acknowledge the door down either).

Once the gambler is "defeated" (by either means), the party can take a long rest in his room as it seems safe. The Gambler will offer them rest when they finish his game and come to them if they are low on health in an encounter anywhere inside his house after his game is done as a reminder.

Once both keys are taken, the guardian at the entrance to the maze will appear door and stop the party from advancing. If the party answered that they were not ok with killing someone because they were doing their job and they killed any of the fey or the gambler, he will question the party on that, and will give the party a magical yellow stone. If the party said they were ok with killing something for doing its job, and they killed the fey or the gambler, he will commend them for their honesty but say they are walking down a bad road still, and give them a red stone. If the party said they would be ok with it, but didn't kill any of the fey or the gambler, he asked why they lied to him and give them a blue stone. If the party didn't agree and they killed none of the fey or the gambler, he will commend them for their honesty and their mercy and give them a green stone. He will explain that the stone will help guide them. The stone is magical and gives off light when used. He tells the party they will need that to descend to the deepest parts.

When the party goes into the lower labyrinth, they have several floors to descend. Each floor has a guardian that is not at the stairs, and each one has a stone of differing colors. One is specifically hidden behind one of those secret ways that the riddle talks about, which is the green stone holder who is a dragon of sufficient level but still the most challenging of the four and is on the last floor. The blue stone is held by a devil or demon of sufficient level that is on the second last floor of the lower labyrinth. The yellow stone is on the second floor and is held by a vampire of sufficient level who is easier than the demon/devil. The red stone is on the first floor of the lower labyrinth and held by an elvish spellcaster that is to be the weakest of the three. If the party has the stone of that color, they do not need to fight that boss, but they can still find it and defeat it. The party's actions made the maze easier or harder to deal with.

Once all four stone are recovered, the final floor has an altar that has an inscription telling of this dark one, and the magic radiates from it heavily. Players who use detect magic can actually use this to skip all four floors of the inner labyrinth and go straight for the stairs, as the magic radiates like a miasma from the altar and tries to escape outside. Putting the four stones down lowers another set of stairs, with the walls of the stairs telling of some horrible deeds done by a very powerful being. The guardian will appear one last time at the altar room and he will offer to heal the party as if they had a long rest if they obtained the green stone (otherwise, they will have to go back to the gambler's room). Regardless of the green stone, he will tell the party that this is the last chance to turn back, and if they do, the party can return, but they will have to fight the guardian who has all four stones on him and is a sort of punishment boss for not following through, being almsot as hard as the final boss.

The party makes it down the stairs to the lair of the Dark One, and they find inside a weakend but still powerful (and obviously altered) fallen angel, where he thanks the party for waking him up and then he fights them. I'll leave it up to you to fill in what he does, but make sure he is unable to fly because he is too weak and just woke up.

Assuming the party succeeds, the guardian congratulates the party and disappears as he explains he was there only to allow in someone who was able to defeat the Dark One. He disappears after he opens up a huge loot room inside the Dark One's room which holds several powerful items that were used to lure the fallen angel in here, as well as a lot of gold, gems, and other things. Most importantly, it has an entire blue print of the labyrinth, and tells the party of any secret loot spots they have missed.

Sorry if this might be too long, but this was fun to come up with

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 27, 2016, 12:47:47 am

Alternatively, the Fallen One is actually imprisoned by the first generation of fey because their current ruler hated him for whatever reason you come up with. The Fallen One thanks the party for freeing him, explains the situation, and disappears (because the bindings of the room bound his magic too), which possibly allows him to show up in disguise in a later plot. He says all the loot is theirs, etc.

OR, the Fallen One doesn't exist. It was all a trick to keep everyone but the most dedicated adventurers from getting their hands on the treasure, explained helpfully by the guardian.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 27, 2016, 01:11:25 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on March 27, 2016, 12:47:47 am

Alternatively, the Fallen One is actually imprisoned by the first generation of fey because their current ruler hated him for whatever reason you come up with. The Fallen One thanks the party for freeing him, explains the situation, and disappears (because the bindings of the room bound his magic too), which possibly allows him to show up in disguise in a later plot. He says all the loot is theirs, etc.

OR, the Fallen One doesn't exist. It was all a trick to keep everyone but the most dedicated adventurers from getting their hands on the treasure, explained helpfully by the guardian.

I was thinking that or the guardian IS the fallen one, and all other aspects of him, save for the hidden boss form, was just him using the magic radiating to control hte party along, which is why he was unkillable in the first fight because it wasn't a physical form.

I kinda threw a Jojo's bizarre adventure reference with the Gambler, but at that CR for a party, they're ready to deal with a possible TPK enemy like that. It seemed mean, but I loved the idea that you could willingly gamble your souls for progress.

I also had the test of body come from a previous game of mine, but it was harsher there because the party had to TPK in order to advance. They had to fight an unkillable boss and fight to the death. The "riddle" was to fight to your own death, but it served his purpose.

I also like the idea of the manor being filled with fallen adventurers, because it shows "yeah, they screwed up badly... Don't be like them" and the poltergeist was an excuse to have something legitimately use cleavers and frying pans on players.

I like to have more than just combat thrown in, which is why I always keep my options open for non-combat encounters like the Gambler and the fey. I actually had an instance of that in the 4e tomb of horrors where I had to play a game and, since it was all skill checks, I had to strip naked (because I was wearing armor that reduced some skills I needed to use) and play the games

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2016, 02:43:12 am

Loving these ideas! I think I've got the background set down now. I've decided to drop the undead component of the manor in favour of a full-out fey themed arc.

Our BBEG is a Blackwood Satyr (http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=2285) who has kidnapped several beautiful young women and is holding them prisoner within the labyrinth on the other side of a gateway to the First World. Our boss fight will end up being against him and three other regular satyrs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/satyr), for a total of a CR 9 encounter. He's been releasing the women into the labyrinth and then he and his companions chase them down for fun, with predictable results for what happens when they're caught.

The hedge maze was created by a Blodeuwedd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/blodeuwedd) using their at-will plant growth SLA. This would mechanically allow a hedge maze to appear around the manor overnight. The background story was that our manor is owned by a nobleman that offended our fey antagonists somehow, and in retribution was taken prisoner to be punished. Thus the maze would function as per the Plant Growth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/plant-growth) spell, meaning a PC's speed drops to 5 ft. within the hedge, and would likely block line of sight.

The manor itself is now ruled over by a pair of fey posing as the new lord and lady of the house. A Stroke Lad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/stroke-lad-tohc) and Huldra (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/huldra) have teamed up to take over the manor house, using their abilities to disfigure the servants into grotesque parodies of humans.

Obviously the manor house at the centre of the maze would be the first destination of the party, so assuming they get past the maze, they will discover it filled with horribly disfigured servants. Since Stroke Lads are supposed to be cowards, our fellow will reveal the location of the gateway to the First World where the women are being held prisoner if the party succeeds on an Intimidate check, by dropping him to half hit points in combat or by killing the Huldra.

Quote from: highmax28 on March 27, 2016, 12:35:34 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...

I love some of your ideas, though as a DM I usually try to make sure any kind of effect has a basis in the core rules instead of hand-waving it away and saying that 'some strange magic stops you doing that' to prevent PCs using a trick to bypass the challenge.

I like your idea of the guard at the entrance to the maze being a test of sorts. I'm thinking a CR 5 Fey Touched (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/fey-touched-cr-1) Minotaur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/minotaur) to introduce the party to the maze and fey theme of the adventure arc and also remind them of the need to have cold iron weapons to bypass the DR of these creatures. The big issue will be communication, since it would only speak Giant, but I figure if nobody has access to that language it would be simple enough to have an easy Sense Motive check to let them know it wants to test them before they can pass the entrance to the maze.

I also like your idea of seeding the maze with helpful Fey NPCs. In particular, I was thinking of having two Baccae (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/baccae) try to seduce the most likely PC and promise to give him a 'gift' if he stays to drink with them. In this case, 'winning' the drinking contest actually involves failing the Fortitude save listed for their special wine, which has no real harmful effect (though making the PCs roll Fortitude saves that increase in difficulty each round will probably have the players extremely paranoid).

As for the maze, I think I'll add four Twigjacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/twigjack) that attack players who push through the hedge instead of following the path. A few Splintersprays should act as a decent deterrent to doing this, I think.

I'm not a huge fan of The Gambler encounter since, as mentioned before, I don't like creatures that have abilities that aren't part of their monster entry. Poltergeists don't have any ability that would let them take the soul of a creature, willingly or otherwise. I could probably do something like give them a Cacodaemon's Soul Lock ability, but overall that doesn't seem thematically appropriate.

On the other hand, the Blodeuwedd has a Lesser Geas SLA that could be quite fun. A Lesser Geas of "Leave this place and never return!" could inflict some discomfort on one member of the party, especially if they try to spend time resting after the fight with the Huldra and Stroke Lad to recover their ability damage.

Since the underground labyrinth is part of the First World, that would mean it would be unlikely to hold any undead or dragons (aside from Linnorm, who are all far too high a CR to place in this quest arc, even as an optional bonus boss). Still, I can think of a few good subterranean fey who might be good additions, as guardians or otherwise. A Polevik (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/polevik) or a pair of Tome of Horrors 4 Domovoi (http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=2386) would be good ones, as well as a Lampad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/lampad) to act as a red herring encounter to trick the party into thinking they've found one of the kidnapped girls.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Chevaleresse on March 27, 2016, 03:39:47 am

Let's see how today's session went...

First I'll introduce you to the present party members. We've got a gnome rogue who went Arcane Trickster and a monk who has no real idea of what he's doing, but he's got maxed out DEX and decent STR so he can probably do something. I'm rolling a half-elf Magical Girl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444516-Base-Class-Magical-Girl-(AKA-quot-Help-me-I-ve-done-something-terrible!-quot-)) because I'm unabashedly obsessed with them after watching PMMM a year or two ago, and 5e doesn't have my beloved warlords or psionic classes. (Yes, I'm that guy.) We've also got a pair of clerics: one elven and focused on the supportive aspects of the class (light domain), and the other a dwarven one who's decidedly more smitey with his storm domain. (I don't really know why he didn't just roll a paladin, tbh, but whatever.) They, along with the somewhat generic goliath fighter, are not present for this session, however. The goliath and the gnome were buddies from way back, something about meeting when they were very young, the monk was the Weird Foreign Guy (or Chick, in this case), and the two clerics were basically the girl's surrogate parents because adventurers aren't allowed to have living, non-evil parents. They basically traveled around being clerics and they took my character in when her parents got eaten by a blue dragon. (We decided, for whatever reason, that her other half was actually dwarf, and so they were often confused for her actual parents.)


Last session was left partially unplanned - the DM at the time started some half-baked plotline that involved dinosaurs spontaneously teleporting into town and wreaking havoc. One dead triceratops later, and we're into what was actually planned: the Adventurer's Guild, which is Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Magical palace-type deal, all sorts of accommodations, memorials to past adventurers (with a Hall of Stupid Deaths that had to be at least 50% based on paladins fucking things up), tons of other adventurers passing through. Very, very much a high-fantasy high-magic world. Settling in after downing the dino took all of the time we had left after character creation, so a halfhearted investigation while the DM desperately fumbled for something for us to actually find ended the session.


This time, scheduling issues abound, resulting in the half-party of mahou shoujo, rogue, and monk as mentioned earlier. We get a new quest via my poor girl being selected via d6 to vomit up a scroll (I was informed this was a MLP reference, which did not make me appreciate this process any more or less) containing the relevant information. It was a pretty basic, simple quest, suitable for our level 3 characters - find whatever was responsible for crops disappearing around the nearby village of New Oldtown (another reference, one that I hope readers will understand) and deal with it.


So, we decide to walk, since it's not all that far away and with the track record set by a previous campaign, we'd inevitably find a way to lose any mounts we purchased in some hilariously unfortunate manner. Along the way we run into a goblin merchant, who isn't selling much of interest other than a cockatrice egg. After informing him of the item's identity, and discovering that he was, in fact, monumentally stupid, we elected to just continue on our way.


We walk into town, make a beeline for the tavern. My magical girl plays a song for the taverngoers, and she is informed that she would have gotten a free beer if it wasn't for the fact that she was fourteen. We also run into some generic-looking monster hunter, who mumbles something about killing whatever has been stealing food. Him and most of the NPCs in the village are nigh unintelligible for whatever reason, but we still manage to scrape enough plot off of them to move on, so after a trip to the nearby inn to garner any more easy information we head down to the farm and ranch (they were across the road from one another) where the food's been disappearing from. The old farmer mumbles something about the corner of the field that the food's gone missing from, so we go over there and find tracks. A few Nature checks later, we've followed them into the woods, through the brush, and to a small cave. We discover a few crude cave paintings, the bones of a few of the missing chickens, and a "bed" made of stacked furs and hides sized for a small humanoid. I, figuring that the owner of the cave was probably illiterate, leave behind a drawing that attempted to indicate that eating the chickens was bad, and that we were friendly and had food. The monk reluctantly had to part with a pen and a page of her blank book, but I guess it was for the greater good.


Cut forward a few hours, it was getting late so the party decided to turn in for the night. We kept watch on top of an old windmill, which had a small sort of turret set up with a repeating ballista (don't question it) set up in order to kill the food thief. Around midnight, the monk catches some movement in her spyglass over by the stables at the neighboring ranch. We run over there, sneak in behind whoever, and find a small humanoid wrapped in a cloak. We decide (well, I decide as the rest of the group fails to come up with a plan other than "tackle it") that I should stand up, tell whoever it is that we mean them no harm, and catch them if they run. I do so, speaking my piece in fluent Halfling. (I have a lot of languages.) The figure screams something about "scary big people" in Common, we catch them, and discover that our culprit is a teenaged goblin girl named. . . Becky.


okay wow, this is longer than I thought it would be, more soon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2016, 04:46:10 am

Quote from: KingMurdoc on March 27, 2016, 03:39:47 am

...Him and most of the NPCs in the village are nigh unintelligible for whatever reason, but we still manage to scrape enough plot off of them to move on...

I started laughing here. Bravo, good sir.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 27, 2016, 05:57:02 am

Quote from: Kadzar on March 26, 2016, 08:06:34 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 26, 2016, 01:45:45 pm

(if you're a fighter, you're a walking weapon shop. Also, if you're an archer you wear leather)

Okay, you're going to have to explain what you mean by these. For the first one, I'm guessing you're saying fighters can use any weapon pretty well (though fighting-style tends to make people focus on a specific type in my experience). And nothing about playing any archer-build restricts you to wearing leather, except maybe if you're a pure rogue.

Quote

(a) chain mail or (b) leather, longbow, and 20 arrows
(a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial
weapons
(a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or( b) two handaxes
(a) a dungeoneer's pack or (b) an explorer's pack

That's the fighter starting equipment. The number of weapons seems ridiculous to me, and it gets pretty weird if you want to be a chainmail archer (longbow and buckler, no arrows?). Also, you then either have to double up on ranged weapons or use a handaxe (or two, why the heck not) in melee.

It just grates with me. Starting with a budget and buying equipment just seems a lot cleaner and achieves the flexibility they're trying to get at without the weird interactions they get by trying to make it streamlined. Fundamentally, my issue is that by making it more accessible, they've taken the depth out, unless there is a 3.5 esque starting set up rule somewhere.

Spoiler: Warlock starting equipment (click to show/hide)

Quote

(a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple
weapon
(a) a componenl pouch or(b) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar's pack or(b) a dungeoneer's pack
Leather armor, any simple weapon, and two daggers

A primarily magic-oriented class (although certainly not entirely) starts with four weapons. Which are all practically useless unless for some reason you can't use magic, because you've got piles of options on spells that work better and make use of your (probably better) charisma bonus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on March 27, 2016, 06:11:47 am

My first session as a GM in a while (last time I played was in .. 2011) is coming up. Nervous ._.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on March 27, 2016, 06:22:07 am

5e is a much needed step forward for Dungeons and dragons

But is also a major step back.

Unlike 4e which was a misstep with many good qualities. It feels like 5e was a great step with many negative qualities.

I still love you 5e *hugs*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 27, 2016, 07:20:20 am

Quote from: Skyrunner on March 27, 2016, 06:11:47 am

My first session as a GM in a while (last time I played was in .. 2011) is coming up. Nervous ._.

No pressure :P

Quote from: Neonivek on March 27, 2016, 06:22:07 am

5e is a much needed step forward for Dungeons and dragons

But is also a major step back.

Unlike 4e which was a misstep with many good qualities. It feels like 5e was a great step with many negative qualities.

I still love you 5e *hugs*

No DnD edition is perfect, but I do believe 5e is a step in a better direction than 3.5e, even if (or perhaps because) it has less superfluous material.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2016, 07:21:41 am

D&D quote of the week: "Paddle faster; I hear banjos!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 27, 2016, 11:39:56 am

@jimmy

I didn't say the gambler was a poltergeist, i just said there was one in the kitchen and the gambler was just some spirit that just hangs around. Can be any powerful undead or similar.

If you're not gonna use it, im actually thinking of keeping it myself and making my own campaign out of it. My only problem is it would get lengthy due to it being like 3 dungeons in one adventure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on March 27, 2016, 11:53:34 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on March 27, 2016, 07:20:20 am

No DnD edition is perfect, but I do believe 5e is a step in a better direction than 3.5e, even if (or perhaps because) it has less superfluous material.

In many ways because. I like that you don't NEED a Rogue, heck you could get away with not having a Cleric.

The only major issues is the lack of customization. The fact that your character is on rails doesn't help.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 27, 2016, 12:33:18 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 27, 2016, 11:53:34 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on March 27, 2016, 07:20:20 am

No DnD edition is perfect, but I do believe 5e is a step in a better direction than 3.5e, even if (or perhaps because) it has less superfluous material.

In many ways because. I like that you don't NEED a Rogue, heck you could get away with not having a Cleric.

The only major issues is the lack of customization. The fact that your character is on rails doesn't help.

What do you mean, on rails?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 27, 2016, 12:41:36 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on March 27, 2016, 12:33:18 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 27, 2016, 11:53:34 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on March 27, 2016, 07:20:20 am

No DnD edition is perfect, but I do believe 5e is a step in a better direction than 3.5e, even if (or perhaps because) it has less superfluous material.

In many ways because. I like that you don't NEED a Rogue, heck you could get away with not having a Cleric.

The only major issues is the lack of customization. The fact that your character is on rails doesn't help.

What do you mean, on rails?

I think he means the fact that there isn't much in terms of customization compared to other editions. For example, once you're a valor bard, you're stuck one, etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Chevaleresse on March 27, 2016, 01:16:28 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 27, 2016, 04:46:10 am

Quote from: KingMurdoc on March 27, 2016, 03:39:47 am

...Him and most of the NPCs in the village are nigh unintelligible for whatever reason, but we still manage to scrape enough plot off of them to move on...

I started laughing here. Bravo, good sir.

I try.

Sadly the rest of the sesh probably won't be up until tomorrow, but it involves a number of failed checks for navigation and questionable goblin tech.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on March 27, 2016, 02:28:19 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 27, 2016, 05:57:02 am

It just grates with me. Starting with a budget and buying equipment just seems a lot cleaner and achieves the flexibility they're trying to get at without the weird interactions they get by trying to make it streamlined. Fundamentally, my issue is that by making it more accessible, they've taken the depth out, unless there is a 3.5 esque starting set up rule somewhere.

Try the first page of the equipment section. There's a "starting wealth by class" table, which can be used instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 27, 2016, 03:02:36 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on March 27, 2016, 02:28:19 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 27, 2016, 05:57:02 am

It just grates with me. Starting with a budget and buying equipment just seems a lot cleaner and achieves the flexibility they're trying to get at without the weird interactions they get by trying to make it streamlined. Fundamentally, my issue is that by making it more accessible, they've taken the depth out, unless there is a 3.5 esque starting set up rule somewhere.

Try the first page of the equipment section. There's a "starting wealth by class" table, which can be used instead.

Huh. My bad, then. Thanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 30, 2016, 08:13:13 pm

Reading the new Ultimate Intrigue book for Pathfinder. There are rules for Verbal Duels.

You can literally Rap Battle someone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 30, 2016, 08:20:37 pm

or kill them with kindness

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 30, 2016, 09:20:20 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 30, 2016, 08:13:13 pm

Reading the new Ultimate Intrigue book for Pathfinder. There are rules for Verbal Duels.

You can literally Rap Battle someone.

Thats awesome!

Had another session today. It was a short one since the DM had stuff to do. We ended up finishing up some business in the first town and during a night of rest, two people (neither one of them me or my familiar who's supposed to be keeping watch) and they wake me up to find the source of the noise. Since I fumbled my perception roll, I played the whole thing off as they were crazy and went around saying "look, its nothing". I sent my raven to go find the source of the noise who found a guy dragging his leg and moving towards the inn we were staying at. I went outside after describing him, and by now, the bard is terrified and the cleric is putting on his armor, so I keep telling them its nothing, only to walk outside and see the figure and, after another perception check, its the dead guy who the bard had to look for in case he died. This lead to the bard telling me, and me checking if its hostile by putting an illusion of the bard screaming next to the now undead guy, and he swung at my illusion. The bard tried over and over to persuade him to stop, slowly freaking out more and more, and then he draws this magical sword that, despite taking the time to study it and a couple of arcana checks, gave me minimal information. The zombie starts to look at the sword and looks drawn to it, slowly shambling towards him, causing him to panic more and the cleric tries to get outside not even fully armored.

Carver doesn't freak out. Carver needs to keep his resolve if he is to be anything like his teacher. So he casts Chromatic orb and burns a hole straight through the guy as he crits him with it dealing radiant damage and defeating the zombie. The bard freaks out, knowing his new lady friend (the one who was looking for this guy who we now killed a second time) is not going to be happy with this. The cleric suggests we burn the body, but I'm out of spells, no one has spark and no one has a tinderbox. So we had to go inside and say we found a zombie and to prevent it from returning, we need a soruce of fire. So he hands the guy a torch and a tinderbox and, without hesitation or worry, just says "do what you gotta do". So we burn the body in the street, no one bats an eye, and we rest up for the rest of the night.

We prepare ourselves to leave, and the woman comes in with a big smile on her face, saying she saw her friend the night before and Dragg the bard has a hard time trying to tell her the news. Wilneas the cleric tries too and fails, and so they try to play it off that he's alive. Carver, not happy with the happy lies, walks up to the lady, sits at her table, puts his hands together like a negotiator and says "Listen, my lady. I'm going to be fully honest with you. We found your friend dead. We buried him right outside the cave we found him. He showed up last night outside the tavern as a zombie." To which the cleric interrupts and says we killed him and burned him... Quite enthusiastically I might add. She denies it, and Carver just gets up, says good day to her and walks off as Dragg and Wilneas try to comfort her and she storms off crying.

So we head out after that and down the road on the first day, we see smoke from a campfire and hear someone grunting while posing. The cleric, for once, succeeds in sneaking and when the bard hears them, he proceeds to shout out loud "DAMN IT, ITS THEM!" and they all get up after I show up, facepalming and see the guys from before and point to the cleric who say HE'S Wally now. Carver facepalms again and tells them they got the wrong guy again. The group isn't prepared for us this time and isn't carrying any armor as they were just resting for the day. I try to convince him before casting spells and the guy, again, ignores our pleas. I try to cast a spell stealthily since I'm behind some bushes and the man shouts out loud "AHA! YOUR MAGIC WILL NOT WORK ON ME THIS TIME!" and I cast sleep on him, which causes him to immediately pass out after that. I rolled a 6 total on an intimidate check as Carver shouts "I HAVE DEFEATED YOUR LEADER! SURRENDER!" and they immediately do in their confusion. Dragg then offers them money to get them to leave us alone, and they demand 500 gold. Dragg rolls 22 on intimidate and says "make it 5 gold" and they freak out and take the money and run, dragging their leader with them. Another successful dodge of this group.

So we camp, continue and on the second night, the bird-watch (as I call him as a joke since Carver hates his familiar and due to story reasons, his raven keeps coming back no matter how many times he summons and dismisses it) awakens everyone and we have more zombies chasing us. I cast an illusion and tell the cleric and the bard to let the zombies get close to it and swing at it, as it shows a screaming version of the bard (and since I'm an illusion wizard, I can use it with sound, which means it DOES scream). What happens? The bard and the cleric move up, and they get attacked by the zombies. Since I couldn't do what I wanted on my first turn (i used the illusion earlier to scare them away/lure them out, my turn was a readied burning hands) because my teammates got swarmed by undead, I had to use magic missile to soften the enemy up. The goblin lackey uses his bow and takes one out, but the bard goes down and the cleric drops to 7/14. I cast chromatic orb and decimate the zombie with an almost max damage radiant attack, which killed him and he gave a face of relief. Cleric drops down to 2hp trying to spare the dying on the bard, and I crush the last zombie too with another orb.

We ended there because next session is going to be a lot of scattered crap, mostly buying stuff, side jobs, and a few other things before we finally go to where Carver has been trying to get to since he made landfall: Brumwax Manor.

Overall, good session. Little more serious but still some humor thrown in. I felt like a dick, but I felt good that I'm playing my character like he's supposed to be (plus, I'm not OVERLY mean to people).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 31, 2016, 11:12:08 am

We bought our haven this session, a nice condo.  In time we can expand its size and security ratings, somehow...  Which we imagine will look something like this:
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/mspaintadventures/images/3/34/JohnHouse.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20091231172417

Also I kinda submitted testimony against what I think might be an ancient gangrel, which is related to us finding a new haven.  Well and our hotel room was blown up by an inept but very devoted vampire hunter.  (Due to some hilariously bad rolls, we almost didn't hear the obvious beeping of his corpse)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on March 31, 2016, 01:01:18 pm

'I'm gonna get mauled by a bear!'
    - Gary Graver, party arcane trickster.

Amazingly, he proceeded to pass his acrobatics check and not get mauled by a bear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on March 31, 2016, 03:06:42 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 31, 2016, 01:01:18 pm

'I'm gonna get mauled by a bear!'
    - Gary Graver, party arcane trickster.

Amazingly, he proceeded to pass his acrobatics check and not get mauled by a bear.

He's probably very happy about that

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on March 31, 2016, 06:19:47 pm

Okay maybe the vampire hunter deserves more than "inept".  He was young, brave, and actually had a decent plan.  He just got unlucky.

He probably heard about our Gangrel's accidental frenzy -  She literally tore apart four armed punks and fled into the sewers, leading a trail of blood and sewage straight to a certain hotel room.  A crack team of vampires arrived within minutes and mindwiped all the witnesses...  But some must have escaped to tell about it.

So he finds the room and sneaks in during the night, planning to ambush her when she returned to sleep.  He had a double barreled shotgun, holy water, and a magic knife with sun-powers.  It was a pretty good plan.

Problem is, we were half-expecting to be ambushed from the room...  By an ancient vampire.  We really shouldn't have gone back at all, but our socialite con-artist wanted to get her clothes and disguise equipment.  And the ancient vampire didn't know her, just the gangrel and my sneakthief, so...  It was a bad plan but we weren't thinking clearly.  Point is, she didn't open the door.  She had some movers open it. 

The vampire hunter killed both the movers with one double-barrel blast, which alerted the gangrel and me in the lobby.  For some insane reason we decided to run upstairs to assist :P  Well, my character can pretty reliably turn invisible even to other vampires sooo...

Screaming some righteous latin, the guy chased our socialite down the hallway and threw some holy water.  It hurt a lot.  She's screaming in terror and firing a little personal defense pistol, he doesn't seem to even notice getting shot.  Apparently they can enter a berserker state!  He catches her at the stairwell and gets her good with this strange knife that seemed to glow like a sunrise.  It burnt away a chunk of her arm where it touched.

So yeah, he almost made it.  If she had opened the door herself, or if he'd been facing just one vampire instead of three, he might have won...

Instead, this giant one-armed woman tackles him back into the hallway and tears him to pieces.  (His actual target, ironically.  The vampire Prince took her arm as punishment for the earlier rampage, so she was delighted to find a "justified" kill to let off steam).  Trenchcoat McFedora (my Mekhet) catches up, looks for witnesses, and is about to give the delivery men first aid when his supernatural senses detect a faint electrical whine building from the bloody corpse.  He shouts a warning and we barely make it back down the stairwell before the hallway fills with the fiery explosion.

Sooo... yeah, we talked a big game at the time, and we were expecting something MUCH deadlier, but we actually were in a lot of danger.  Almost tragic, since normally that guy would have been the hero...  Meh :P  We're not evil, we're just hungry and possessed

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on April 01, 2016, 04:40:25 am

Quote from: highmax28 on March 31, 2016, 03:06:42 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 31, 2016, 01:01:18 pm

'I'm gonna get mauled by a bear!'
    - Gary Graver, party arcane trickster.

Amazingly, he proceeded to pass his acrobatics check and not get mauled by a bear.

He's probably very happy about that

Oh yeah, I neglected to mention that that wasn't so much an exclamation of fear as a declaration of intent. :P

As it turned out, he got mauled later, as did I. Luckily, the wizard greased me up and I managed to break the grapple. Which was a good thing, because I think I would have died instantly next round if I'd failed.

Other highlights included nearly wiping out a warg as it barrelled in from the edge of a lantern's light, the paladin one-shotting an imp as it revealed itself, and the wizard using Enlarge Person on anyone and everyone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 01, 2016, 11:39:12 am

So I decided to open up the topic to PnP games outside of D&D, the same rules still apply, no bickering over editions, no arguments about things like alignments, etc.  Feel free to discuss whatever PnP RPGs you like, if you are asking a question, please specify what game your are asking about.  (This is not an April Fool's day joke.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 01, 2016, 11:45:29 am

Oh, that's really cool thanks!  (:
I was hoping my World of Darkness stuff was okay since nobody seemed to object, glad it's not off-topic now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 01, 2016, 11:47:14 am

It wasn't a problem, I just felt like making it official.

That said, I don't want to hear anything at all about FATAL, really.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 01, 2016, 11:49:15 am

So how about a forum game of FATAL, everyone?
We could run it in this thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 01, 2016, 11:52:23 am

Can I get a definition of PnP?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 01, 2016, 01:18:38 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 01, 2016, 11:49:15 am

So how about a forum game of FATAL, everyone?

You just, but I would play. I tried to run a game of it once here, but it didn't go so well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on April 01, 2016, 03:30:43 pm

Not in this thread, thanks, but I don't mind if you occasionally share feats of tremendous stupidity from the game. I can't speak for anyone else, though...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 01, 2016, 03:33:57 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on April 01, 2016, 01:18:38 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 01, 2016, 11:49:15 am

So how about a forum game of FATAL, everyone?

You just, but I would play. I tried to run a game of it once here, but it didn't go so well.

How did it not fall afoul of the forum rules?
Or perhaps that was the not going so well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 01, 2016, 03:51:22 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on April 01, 2016, 11:52:23 am

Can I get a definition of PnP?

Pencil/pen and paper, a catchall term for tabletop role-playing games.  For the purposes of this thread it is limited to games like D&D, RIFTS, WoD (Vampire, Werewolf, etc.), various Open D20 games, and so on.  If something seems to be outside of the threads scope I'll let the poster know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 01, 2016, 03:59:08 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 01, 2016, 03:33:57 pm

How did it not fall afoul of the forum rules?

By disavowing the naughty bits.

Of course, whether this still constitutes the authentic FATAL experience is another question. On one hand, it's definitely veering far from the creators' intentions to remove what is probably the entire point of the game. On the other hand, playing it as the rape simulator the creators likely intended it to be played as would be kind of creepy to attempt even if you kept the game to something like Roll20 rather than as a PbP forum game on Bay12.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 01, 2016, 04:02:41 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 01, 2016, 03:33:57 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on April 01, 2016, 01:18:38 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 01, 2016, 11:49:15 am

So how about a forum game of FATAL, everyone?

You just, but I would play. I tried to run a game of it once here, but it didn't go so well.

How did it not fall afoul of the forum rules?
Or perhaps that was the not going so well.

NFO did just ask us not to talk about it...
In short though it doesn't *technically* have to be uh... unsuitable for the forum.  The stats are there but you can avoid situations where they come up.  Thing is, the game is absurdly bad (and TEDIOUS) even then.  To cover the obvious purpose, it attempts to simulate all sorts of inane stuff with a bajillion stats which are mostly similes.

It's not at all worth playing even as a joke.  Checking out the character creation rules to laugh at how broken they are, might be fun, but I'd suggest finding one of the video series where someone demonstrates the process.  The one I saw took like two hours, and it seemed to give the player literally 0 choice.

So yeah it's pretty overhyped, it only got any recognition for the disturbing themes.  It's a little funny how badly designed it is, but there are tons of badly designed systems to talk about instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 01, 2016, 05:31:44 pm

You could run a round of DeadEarth character generation

for an almost-playable experience.

In the hyper-realistic post-apocalyptic Parisian mountains, you too can become mutated into a "Mad Whack Voodoo Ninja"



Pros over FATAL

• Not FATAL
• Almost playable
• Characters can die in character generation
• Weird, exploding-die mutations
• Authentic realism
• Immature about women and sex, rather than horrifying
• not FATAL

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 01, 2016, 06:15:21 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on April 01, 2016, 05:31:44 pm

DeadEarth

besides, what other game has you say "Mad Whack Voodoo Ninja"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 01, 2016, 07:12:07 pm

Well, after our Pathfinder game last night, it appears two things will be happening.

First, my adventuring group will be attempting to dive into a Formian hive. Luckily this is happening on the material plane, so at least there's no whacky hijinks with magic. Our rogue won't like the fact Formians can't be flanked, though.

Second, it looks like I'm hitting level 12!

Question for all you Pathfinder nerds: What two Wizard spells should I select for my level? I currently have Summon Monster VI and Greater Heroism, and I was thinking about picking up Contingency this level, but can't really pick a decent option for my fourth level 6 spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 01, 2016, 07:31:25 pm

Plenty of options. What's your favoured school, and which schools are your opposition schools?

I'd be interested in Greater Dispel or Acid Fog, though there are a number of purely offensive spells that would be good to take as well. There's also plenty of transformative spells that would be good to slap on someone who could make use of a Strength of Dex buff and a size change.

If you're not Good, and no-one else minds having a few extra "friends" in the party, you could grab Create Undead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 01, 2016, 10:29:25 pm

I'm a Conjuration specialist (thus the Summon Monster) and picked Divination as my opposed school. I don't really use Dispel Magic that much, since I have a Summoner cohort that casts the regular version spontaneously, and with Contingency I can also just have a contingency "If an enemy casts a spell that I can counter with Dispel Magic, immediately use Dispel Magic as a counterspell." I'd prefer to remain Neutral alignment, and I'm already on thin ice with some naughtiness I've recently done pushing me towards Evil, plus our Lawful Good Oracle might take offence to me creating undead minions. With Acid Fog, it would hamper my allies as well, since they mostly fight in melee, and I'd rather not damage them with acid and give the enemy 20% concealment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (and Pathfinder), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 04, 2016, 03:22:45 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 25, 2016, 09:10:26 pm

I'm waiting until they release more races from 4e like Revenant, Goliath, Mul, and others

They just released Revenant as a subrace in the latest Unearthed Arcana.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 04, 2016, 05:12:29 pm

Diplomancers: Making the big dumb fighters feel useless by talking their way out of almost everything.

Enter an abandoned museum. Kill some zombies and giant insects. Come across an old aquarium. There is a massive, murky tank in the center of the room. No-one wants to go near it, but we all argue about what to do. The Wizard gets annoyed and throws a dagger at the thing, and it shatters. It was empty.

Walk into another room. Full of evil Monks and an evil Cleric. Can't talk our way past them, because plot reasons, so we kill them. Next several encounters we do manage to talk our way through. First we meet a planar-bound outsider, though we failed to convince them we were with the cultists. It didn't care what we did so long as we didn't try to go past it, so we left the room and came back to try and convince it that we were with the cultists by showing it the unholy symbols that we took off the corpses a few rooms back. It probably knew we were lying, but I don't think it cared enough to bother calling us out.

Find the leader of the cultists in the barracks sleeping alone. Swashbuckler was dumb and woke them up, attempting to diplomacy their way through, even though we had encountered this person before. Shank 'em, and dress the Occultist in their armour. Convince the cultists in the next few rooms that their mission in the place is done, and they all willingly leave.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 05, 2016, 06:40:41 am

Still can't decide about a good level 6 spell for my Wizard.

What about Permanent Image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/permanent-image)? Seems useful to be able to bring up an image of anything my imagination can come up with. Smoke clouds and fire are instant thoughts, as well as solid walls to block line of sight, but anyone have any other good ideas?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 05, 2016, 07:03:04 am

1. Fight mortals.
2. Permanent Image of the most potent succubus possible.
3. Murder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 05, 2016, 09:53:52 am

Enough platinum (and hell, gold/silver/copper) to buy anything you want in every town ever?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 05, 2016, 09:55:26 am

You can't touch images. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 05, 2016, 09:59:56 am

Ah, coulda sworn this version had a tactile component.  Plus they go "static" when you stop concentrating, so yeah...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 06, 2016, 12:19:56 am

We played a superhero setting featuring characters I will never forget, no matter how hard I try.

The setting was a slightly altered reality wherin the USSR stayed united and the USA balkanized. The NCR, The Empire State, Deseret, Texas, Cascadia, and several others were major power players. Disney World is an enclave in the Christian States of Christ, the only trade agreement between the two being the export of power from Disney Nation's Eugenics Furnaces to power the CSC's electric chairs.

My PC was a hobo cursed with the ability to respawn and the associated ability that was the rest of the universe trying to kill him. He actually served a useful role as he was something of a lightning rod for the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 06, 2016, 12:25:29 am

That sounds silly. In a fun way.

Being able to act as a living shield knowing that you are probably fine takes a bit of the heroic-ness out of it, though. But it also encourages you to do it more, so I guess it evens out.

Like one ability I saw in Pathfinder that lets a character with improved evasion willingly fail a roll to allow nearby allows to act as if they had improved evasion as well. Even though you failed, it doesn't say you lose the benefits of improved evasion, and it provides allies an aid that would never be unwelcome.

Unless your a dick and deny them a beneficial AoE effect.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 06, 2016, 01:04:34 am

Just finished my first gym leader in my PTU game that might/might not happen...

At least 7 more to go... And I'm thinking of adding more only as extra options...

On the bright side, the gym is based around status effects, so the gym itself is riddled with traps, like toxic spikes that poison you, shock traps that paralyze you, sonic traps that confuse you, a couple rooms that cause the curse effect if you're not careful, and a few rooms that releases sleep gas if you screw up. If you and your team are knocked out, you're booted from the gym and fail the challenge. The gym leader is a ninja, and the gym leader's pokemon (regardless of level) will maneuver the maze to lay more traps, screw with the party or even outright fight them. The gym leader personally will throw in some attacks as well, such as curse, poisonpowder/toxic spikes (thanks to some gear), hypnosis and confuse ray. The objective is to find and subdue the gym leader's pokemon, but the leader will directly screw with the party as well, making it all the much harder for them.

Its designed to be a more slow paced gym battle, and it encourages challengers to really be aware of their surroundings.

The one thing I want to do is also allow players to return to the gym and compete in the challenge again not just for the badge, but for bonuses, since the gym leader will fight them at any level with a different team depending on how many badges the player has. Even though this will be the first gym the party will encounter, they don't have to deal with it right away.

I need an idea/theme for the second gym, but I have plenty of time for that. I'm thinking of the second gym being one where you're dropped into a section of the forest and you have to defeat the gym leader and you're given a rental pokemon with half HP left or they're a weaker pokemon and you have to capture pokemon there to form a team to fight the gym leader. Kinda like a more hardcore version of the battle factories, with a bit of nuzlocke stuff happening. It would essentially lead the entire thing into one big encounter. The gimmick might be that the gym leader himself is a very capable fighter, and instead of fighting pokemon with his actual pokemon on hand, he fights them himself.

Yeah... I like that idea...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on April 06, 2016, 06:51:12 am

...PTU?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 06, 2016, 08:36:15 am

Pokemon tabletop united. It's a fan made pokemon D&D style game. It's pretty cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 06, 2016, 09:43:35 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on April 06, 2016, 08:36:15 am

Pokemon tabletop united. It's a fan made pokemon D&D style game. It's pretty cool.

It's also really hard to run, sadly. Lots of work for the GM

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 06, 2016, 12:06:29 pm

It sounds like it would be fun tho', I hope that if you actually use it your group has fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 06, 2016, 04:30:40 pm

I know a smaller enclosed labyrinth is much more manageable on roll20 than on forums like I'm used to. If anything, it's helping me get used to roll20.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on April 07, 2016, 01:57:41 pm

"Man, we just killed all this goblin's friends. Now I feel bad. Can we just coup-de-grace him? I think because he's evil I'll feel less guilty if I kill him."
     -Gary Graver, party arcane trickster.

The player is just so quotable.

Edit:
"I don't know much about goblin bosses, but since they're Chaotic Evil I doubt they're particularly nice. ... Don't make me Charm Person you, [player]."
     -Gary Graver, party arcane trickster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 07, 2016, 02:21:36 pm

Quotable and meta as hell.  Well, fun if fun, so I guess it doesn't matter

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on April 08, 2016, 01:25:09 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 07, 2016, 02:21:36 pm

Quotable and meta as hell.  Well, fun if fun, so I guess it doesn't matter

Yeah, part of the reason I like this group is that things aren't super ultra serious. We stay in character most of the time, but if a bit of meta makes the game more fun for everyone we're not above it.

That was unusually fourth wall breaking.

Highlights of last session include the wizard using silent image to trick since goblins into thinking he'd summoned their demonic master, the sorcerer using charm person to interrogate a goblin (hence the above quotes), and the return of 420noscope archery, with two goblins going down in one hit thanks to a crit anda pair of very high damage rolls.

We also managed to put out the parts of the village they set on fire before it all burnt down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on April 08, 2016, 01:51:11 am

The one Pokemon game (i think it was PTA) I did play one time long ago was pretty fun and had lots of promise, but the GM stopped after a while :(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 08, 2016, 11:31:22 am

Quote from: Skyrunner on April 08, 2016, 01:51:11 am

The one Pokemon game (i think it was PTA) I did play one time long ago was pretty fun and had lots of promise, but the GM stopped after a while :(

Its hard for them, so I can see why.

So my last session showed us we're a terribly squishy party. Bard has -1 to con, rolled a 1 on his hit die and got no HP. I rolled a 1 and got 2hp, beinging me to 9hp, and the cleric is the only one who got HP. We were sent after a group of criminals who were harassing a woman. The guards aren't doing shit, they knew but left it alone. This was apparent when I use minor illusion to create an image of a guard who said "STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!" and they laughed at him because they said guards don't do their jobs. They found out I was doing that and they just wreck us with crossbows, including almost killing our goblin buddy. We ONLY won because I used chromatic orb and melted a guy with a critical hit and insta-killed him from full HP, put one to sleep right away, and even though I got a 6 on my intimidate check, I scared the shit out of their leader who booked it and we killed another one. Bard dropped to 0hp again, cleric was hit almost every time, and I was bouncing around at 1hp for the entire fight after the first round, and the goblin was stuck being unconscious but stable the whole time (DM said he lasts 1 round until he's gone for good).

The guy we put to sleep got tied up and, while questioning him, the bard threatens to kick him if he doesn't talk. I go up to the bard and pretty much go:

"Let me handle this, Mr Dragg.

Sir, do you see that green goop? That was your friend."

I had rolled really high on persuasion, because all was left was a greenish goop with pieces of gear left there, and he notices something in there that showed him it was his buddy. He starts panicking.

"I will do that to you if you do not tell us what we want to know"

He started to slur his speech in his panic to the point he wouldn't shut up, so we got the info we needed (we found their secret base behind a secret door, which is behind a stone wall with a metal sheet behind it). I had to leave at this point, but we decided to rest. I regrettably do NOT have any acid damage cantrips, so I'm stuck freezing the door with ray of frost, having the cleric smack it with his mace over and over until the metal breaks. Its very brute force, but other than carving the area around it, which probably leads to nowhere.

Pretty short session, but it shows we REALLY need this guy we've been waiting to show up. He's a dragonborn barbarian, and he's apparently got the best stats in the whole group, with 5/6 scores over 14, one being an 18, and a 9. As much as I love fighting within inches of our lives, I'm not fond of having our party get 1 shot by a heavy crossbow... Bard got for 8 damage and he went down

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 12, 2016, 09:33:31 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on April 01, 2016, 05:31:44 pm

You could run a round of DeadEarth character generation

for an almost-playable experience.

In the hyper-realistic post-apocalyptic Parisian mountains, you too can become mutated into a "Mad Whack Voodoo Ninja"



Pros over FATAL

• Not FATAL
• Almost playable
• Characters can die in character generation
• Weird, exploding-die mutations
• Authentic realism
• Immature about women and sex, rather than horrifying
• not FATAL

That sounds good to me, let's do this.[/list]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on April 13, 2016, 07:09:03 am

Okay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 13, 2016, 10:22:41 am

I'm down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on April 14, 2016, 02:28:16 pm

The Pathfinder shenanigans continue!

The goblin we handcuffed last week was conned into thinking we'd chosen him as the trueblooded champion (??) so he'd shut up, but then he started complaining about being handcuffed, so we tied him up as well and told him getting free was his first test. We then started heading back to our parent organisation to demonstrate the evil devil-worshipping scum.

On the way, we were attacked by a hippogryph, which... well, we tried to scare off with an escalating series of screams starting with me rearing my horse and yelling and ending with the wizard using Ghost Sound to duplicate its hunting call right behind it. That didn't exactly work, so we went to plan B: cast Enlarge Person on someone. It has yet to fail us.

So the monk, after attempting to ride the hippogryph (yep. Not very bright) was in the best position, so he grappled it, then pinned it, and we tied it up. At which point its mate arrived. Several attempted Handle Animal checks later, the sorceror/rogue decides 'sod it' and colour sprays it. Luckily, both I and my horse passed the will DC, so only the 'gryphs were stunned. Naturally, the monk then grappled and tied that one, too.

At this point, the goblin rolls out of the carriage shouting that he'd done it, he'd passed the first test. So we did the obvious thing, tied him up again, and told him it was the second test.

We're not sure how to get the 'gryphs back to base, but I'll be damned if I pass up the chance to become flying artillery. I knew I put those points into Ride and Handle Animal for a reason!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 14, 2016, 04:06:39 pm

That Monk sure likes hugging things. Is there not enough space in the carriage for the gryphs?

Ah, and for those who want to check it out, the new Vigilante (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante) for Pathfinder is now up on D20PFSRD. Most of it, anyways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 14, 2016, 04:23:42 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 14, 2016, 04:06:39 pm

That Monk sure likes hugging things. Is there not enough space in the carriage for the gryphs?

Ah, and for those who want to check it out, the new Vigilante (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante) for Pathfinder is now up on D20PFSRD. Most of it, anyways.

Wow, that has a magical girl archetype.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 14, 2016, 04:29:21 pm

And a Hulk in the Brute Archetype. Zorro in the Mounted Fury. Your mount also has a secret identity, for some reason. And the Wildsoul Archetype has three choices: Arachnid for Spiderman, Falconine for Hawkman, and Ursine for Bear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 14, 2016, 04:32:50 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 14, 2016, 04:29:21 pm

Your mount also has a secret identity, for some reason.

Well I mean, it'd be a pretty shitty secret if Gregory the nondescript candle maker and ZILDIRO THE SAVIOR OF THE WEST both rode the same horse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Frumple on April 14, 2016, 05:09:06 pm

Unless Gregoro, Gregory's older brother, just happens to be a famous animal breeder that produces great numbers of physically identical horses that are sold on the cheap, propagating out through the surrounding lands. Loved by peasants for their price, city guards for their stamina and temperment, and the thieves guilds for being completely impossible to identify one from the other.

Alternately, Zildiro contracted a random mage to roam around the countryside permanently polymorphing horses into clones of his own. Gods know if I had a distinctive physical characteristic and a decent warchest, that's what I'd do. Whole towns permanently and painlessly inflicted with a scar under their left eye, entire herds of horses turned the same color, etc, etc., etc. It's not an identifying characteristic anymore if it identifies everyone!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 14, 2016, 05:22:11 pm

There's no actual penalty for people knowing your identities though. It's up to the DM to make one up. Aside form the scrying bit; if someone knows both your identities, they don't auto-fail when trying to scry on the identity you are not currently in.

There's even a paragraph in the Ultimate Intrigue book that recommends players have their alter-egos be an open secret.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 14, 2016, 05:41:28 pm

So it's just this scene (https://youtu.be/tjTrFo-bITU?t=30)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 14, 2016, 06:56:26 pm

So, the elder Gangrel, who presumably wants me dead for testifying against him, found our new haven we were hiding in.  We know this because we came back from feeding to find our Ventrue party member lying on the couch with a stake in her chest, and a note.  Apparently he wants to meet in 5 days, that we have "Unfinished business".

We were supposed to be trying to lure him into a trap for the vampire authorities, who are trying to kill him for his crimes.  But we were sorta putting that off because hiding seemed a lot safer (and we were handling other plot hooks).  My plan if he found me was to run, pray, and hopefully scare him off with some lucky fire bullets (which are coming in the mail soon).

But this kinda changes everything.  He found us, he could trivially kill us, but instead he wants to "meet".  So I reported to my sire but *not* to the Prince/authorities.  My sire suggested he probably had allies who tracked us down, which is bad.  We decided that the note could theoretically be from anyone (even though I totally checked the handwriting).  Hopefully in 4 days I'll have fire bullets, and possibly level 1 Celerity to run away fast.  He has Celerity also, but my character doesn't know that, and I might maybe have a chance if I use that *and* go invisible with Obfuscate *and* distract him with a decent incendiary shot...

But basically I'm hoping he wants to talk, share his side.  Or maybe just beat my character up for ratting him out.

Another reason we're not reporting this is that he's our gangrel character's sire.  She's not jumping to his defense, but she doesn't want to report this either.  In fact she keeps trying to call his (presumably bugged) phone...

He didn't even bust the door down or pick it, he probably passed under as smoke.  He could plausibly even be in the room with us at any time, using obfuscate or having merged with our floor (if it works that way.  I'm avoiding studying Gangrel powers OOC).  I was saving experience for something important but I spent a lot of them on Auspex out of sheer paranoia.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 14, 2016, 10:38:39 pm

The biggest problem I see with the whole hidden identity thing? None of your other party members have it.

"Oh hey, it's the big hulking orc barbarian, the snooty elf wizard and the drunken dwarf cleric from before. That's weird, didn't they have that dark brooding masked hero with them? They're walking around with the local minor nobleman now, still chatting like they're old friends."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on April 14, 2016, 11:06:24 pm

What's great is I'm gonna be a part of a gestalt campaign taking place inside a single city; I'm gonna do a rogue/stalker vigilante. Stack those sweet precision dice and charm my way out of literally every situation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 15, 2016, 05:34:55 am

Here's a link to the unofficial deadEarth resources page (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/downloads-games/deadearth-resources/). I advise using the spreadsheet in "unofficial resources"


Here's a link to the character sheet. Bask in an entire page of unarmed moves. (https://www.scribd.com/doc/19873452/DeadEarth-Character-Sheet)

(http://puu.sh/oiWd7/5a1e9ce232.png)

(http://puu.sh/oiWdR/30e3fc45e0.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 15, 2016, 06:24:44 am

Okay, so I'm gonna document my creation of a deadEarth character.

My design brief for this is "melee brawler", but with the power of Realism, anything could result!

Okay, starting off with Moves (apparently the most important stat). I roll 2d6, and get 8. Nice and average.
Next, Resiliency (which is how hard it is to hurt you, I think?). 1d6 + 3, 5(owch). Brawler is off to a bad start.
Strength starts at 0, but apparently skills and mutations can increase it (average is 1, negatives are crippled horribly)

Next, I have to decide my Age. In the grim realism of deadEarth, characters are between 16 and 60 (the setting explicitly says that everyone is dead past 60 and that if a character reaches 60 years old they... just die?). Did I say decide? I meant, "percentile dice". I get 95, and therefore roll again and add d6 to an attribute. I'll take +1d6 to Strength, getting 2. I roll again, and get 12 - Roll again and subract 50 skill points. Damn. I roll athird time and get 61 - roll twice and pick. I get 45 and 48. I pick 45. This gives me -1 resiliency and -3(!) moves, but  get 800 + d6*10 skill points, working out to be 810 (bugger that roll) -50 for 760 skill points. I will get 3d6 Radmans (Mutations, but REALISTIC)

Now that I have decided my age (Look how easy and streamlined the process was! Immense realism! Wow!), I have to - get this - roll for height and weight. Truly, RNG salves all flaws. I roll 48+6d6 inches, getting 72 inches height. Six feet exactly.
For weight, I roll 5d6 and consult a chart (?), getting 15. The book isn't very clear, but I think that I multiply my height by this to get my weight in pounds.
This would make my character (Who I've decided to call Fragile Francis) weigh... 1080lbs?! I don't american weights, so I have no idea how well this conforms to the brutal reality of the deadEarth.

Actually, this doesn't seem to be how you do it. There's a chart here, but it's... blanked out? Whatever, I'll pick a weight myself for maximum minmax (Vital to the realistic atmosphere.) I'll take 260lbs. This gives me +2 resiliency and +1 strength (score!)

Now, carry capacity time. This is, 30 + STR*10 lbs, so that's 60lbs for Francis, with his 3 strength (Which apparently makes him Arnold, according to the description of strength)

Finally, I get the Player's Choice, where I add 1d6 to one of a buncha things listed on the helper spreadsheet.

Time for the First Long Boring Part: Abilities/Disabilities.
These are what Francis is inherently "good" or "bad" at, and will probbably define his character build unless I get some Mad Whack Voodo Mutations.
I roll 2d6 for all of the skills, and for each 12 i get an Ability, and for each 2 I get a disability.

About 100 die rolls later, Francis has Abilities in
-Pioneering (Wtf is that and how would you use it in a game)
-

and Inabilities in:
-Beast handling
-Construction

Well, that's completely useless. I rolled
(http://puu.sh/oiXLE/0e9b077c33.png)
THIS MANY 2d6s (thats all the skills, by the way), and thats all I got. I might as well call this loser Average Aaron.

ugh.

Anyway, time to generate my $tandards! A post-apocalyptic united currency based off the Euro that uses the dollar symbol and has $1 purchasing power!

I get 3d6*100 $tandards, an-
Wait, WHAT did that next bit say?
(http://puu.sh/oiXQN/41df1eef7f.png)
YOU MUST BARTER WITH THE GAME MASTER FOR EVERY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT YOUR CHARACTER GETS (YOU MAY WANT TO BOOST YOUR HAGGLE)

hnnngh

Anyway, I got $tandards 1000. More to follow, as we delve into the terrifying Skill Tree.

---

As it stands, Fragile Francis has 7 Moves, 6 Resiliency, and hits like a pro boxer with a Strength of 3. So much for the name, but the original concept is looking good!
He's 45, is exactly 6 feet high and weighs 260lbs.
He loves Pioneering(?) But hates animals and building things. But he has a worrying 3d6 Radiation Manipulations coming up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on April 15, 2016, 07:28:03 am

Starting a gestalt campaign, and I want to build either goku/saitama or some sort of rogue/(druid/wizzerd) master infiltrator. Not sure which yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 15, 2016, 09:38:40 am

Time for the good stuff!

RADIATION MANIPULATIONS (Or, Mutations to regular people. Radmans to the wise)

Fragile Francis here is in his 40s, and so gets 3d6 manipulations. He rolls, and gets... 17. Wow.

So, time to roll on the d1000 table... 17(+) times.

1: 101 Second chance.
When you die (and you will) you will bereborn with no radiation manipulations. Your new life will beginexactly one day after your death (Hopefully no one buries you.).
cost:none.
range:self.
effect:binary.


Amazing. Realistic portrayal of radioactive mutation at its finest.

2:  474 Emergency preparedness.
Add a D6 to jury-rig and
first aid.
cost:none.
range:self.
effect:cumula-tive

3: 185 Sage.
You have a unique ability to perceive beyond your normal
five senses, to see into a situation and determine a better way to accomplish the task at hand. Roll two distinguish-able dice with each of your skill rolls from now on. If they match each other, you may add them to your roll.
cost:none.
range: self.
effect:binary


Now I'm a fortune-telling survivalist with the ultimate edge in survival - Resurrection.

4: 014 Pass.
Choose a random radiation from your list and make it binary. The next person you come into contact with gains that radiation and pass. Then remove that radiation and pass from your list.
cost:none.
range:touch.
effect:temporary.


I'll use Pass on sage. Remember kids - radioactive mutations are like hot-potato!

5:
 664 Hibernation.
You may choose to go into hibernation at any time. While in hibernation you will have only one move.You will breathe through your skin and your vital signs willbe nil. Hibernation extends for D6 days and can be renewed for a cost of one skill point.
cost:2 skill points.
range:self.
effect:binary

This is a weird one. I guess I can play dead?

6: 267 Negative influence.
Your pessimistic attitude affects every-one around you. Anyone performing a skill in your company must subtract a D6 from their roll, except you.
range:others in your presence.
effect:binary

Not a team player, is Survivalist Dormant Jesus Fragile Bodybuilder Francis.

7: 145 Eraser.
You may spend 25 skill points to erase a random radiation manipulation, 75 to erase one of your choice, or 200 toerase them all.
cost:depends.
range:self.
effect:cumulative

My god. I'm safe. As long as I have plenty of skill points, I can dodge Death By Character Generation.

8: 771 He said, she said.
Every D6 days, you change to theopposite sex and personality. All memories and aspirations areunique to that sex's experiences. Add(662)PMS to list whenfemale, (008)Bottoms up when male to radiation list.
cost:none.
range:self.
effect:binary.

Uh, what?! How about no. I'll spend 75 skill points to erase 771, leaving me with 685 Skill Points

9: 880 Worker's compensation.
Worker's compensation. Gainan extra skill point whenever you roll beast handling, construc-tion, domestics, horticulture, mechanics, mining, smithing, andtrapping/
fishing.
cost:none.
range:self.
effect:binary.
This is... kind of neat? It ties in with the whole "Lone survivalist" thing we've got Francis, even if one of the extra skill points is his disadvantage.

10: 210 Seven card stud.
From now on, when you are asked to rollon the radiation table, roll seven times. The Game Master will choose your fate.
cost:none.
range:self.
effect:cumulative.

I'll ignore this for char gen, for my sanity.

11:  175 Sweet side of death.
Pick
five radiations from this table andadd them to your list of radiation manipulations. From now on,when you encounter radiation, roll percentiles. If you roll 75%or under, you die. Not even (176) retard can save you fromthe death effects of sweet side of death. You may not choose a radiation that removes sweet side of death from your list ofradiations.
cost:none.
range:self.
effect:binary.

I'll take this, then wipe it immediately with Eraser (which I already have and therefore skips the restriction) once I pick my 5 radmen.

11 a)  181 Mule.
Your maximum carrying weight is doubled.
 11b)  251 Save versus death.
If you die, roll resolve against average(15) odds. If you are successful, your willpower will keep youalive provided that you receive immediate medical attention.
11c)  406 Unconscious freedom.
You cannot go unconscious.
11 d) 441 Halogen.
You have the ability to project a variably brightlight from your eyes.
cost:1 skill point per hour.
range:1000feet.
11e) Deviant (I would never normally select this, but rolling 1d6 radmans for all six of my remaining radmen rolls amuses me. Gain 1d6 radiations whenever you would roll to gain a radiation.

And then scrub SSoD , taking me down to 605 skill points

1d6:2
12a) 797 Misdiagnosis.
Choose a random radiation from your list andreroll it on the table. If a permanent is chosen, choose another.

Lose a random radman. I rolled Halogen. *sigh*
12b) 828 Getaway.
Gain an extra skill point every time you roll escape, climbing, or hide
1d6:1
13  810 Rite of corruption.
You may spend 10 skill points to reducethe reason skill of a person you are speaking with. For everylevel their reason skill is reduced, you may add a D6 to yourguile and outright lie skills. You may not reduce their skill to lessthan 2D6. The effects last of this ritefor one minute.
cost:10 skillpoints.
Why is this "corruption"?

More  to come

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 15, 2016, 11:38:45 am

Thanks a bunch for sharing these!  The first one was hilarious and this one looks great too (once I get a chance to read it properly).

Haha this is amazing.  I particularly like how it gives you basically no choice in chargen, and involves somewhere between a hundred and a million die rolls.  Much like that other horrible system, but I think this is actually more entertaining.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 15, 2016, 12:30:21 pm

More from the RADIATION MANUPULATION TABLE:

1d6:6
14 a)  535 Concussion.
Every time you take a point of damage to thehead, take an extra point of damage (resiliency will protect, ifyou have any) and an extra D6 of stun.
Fragile Escapist Survivalist Dormant Jesus Fragile Bodybuilder Francis is living up to his name.

14 b) 680 Polarization.
You are now magnetic.

You couldn't make this up. Francis can now float on his back in water to point his way north. As long as he stays in a swamp, he'll never get lost.

14 c)  756 Direction sense.
Gain an extra skill point every time you roll navigation, tracking, or memory
I guess this can be assumed to be related to the above.
14 d) 774 Courage under fire.
Whenever you enter an intense situa-tion, roll a D6. On an odd roll, you gain nothing. On an evenroll, you gain +2D6 to command, charisma, and resolve for theduration of the situation.
This is really good considering that he makes a Resolve check to not die when he would otherwise be killed.

14 e)  331 Spawn.
Regenerate a lost limb in D6 weeks.

It takes Francis 4.
Fragile Healing-Factor War-Hero Living-Compass Escapist Survivalist Dormant Jesus Fragile Bodybuilder Francis is shaping up nicely.

1d6:4
15 a) 592 Thyroid condition.
Add or subtract (flip a coin) 2D6 inches to your height and adjust your modifiers accordingly
Uh.. okay. He loses 8 inches, taking his Resilience down by 1. Damnit.
15 b) 697 Killing spree.
Once each year, on a date decided by your Game Master, you must kill D6 people. If you fail to kill those people, kill yourself.
Fragile Healing-Factor War-Hero Living-Compass Escapist Survivalist Dormant Serial-Killer Jesus Fragile Bodybuilder Francis.
15 c)  482 Consumer.
Haggle is now a natural inability.
15 d)  604 Mammal.
You have cross-mutated with a mammal. Take one attribute from a mammal of your choice and apply it to your character.

Francis gets bat echolocation. This will help him hunt down his victims in the dead of night and curse them with his radiation magic.

1d6:1 (yay)
16:  375 Mutant.
From this point forward, each time you accumulate 10 skill points you will spend them by rolling on this table. You may not spend skill points on skills until mutant is removed from your list of radiations

This is really bad, since you can't spend skill points in intervals of less than 10, and accumulate 1 or more every time you roll a skill. But since it's not going to kill
Fragile Healing-Factor War-Hero Living-Compass Escapist Survivalist Dormant Serial-Killer Jesus Bodybuilder Bat Francis in character generation, I'll ignore it.

1d6:2 LAST MUTATIONS!!
17a) 417 Active agent.
Your game master will determine a substancewhich, when you ingest it, will add D6 points to your resiliency,strength and moves for D6 x 10 minutes
Francis is Serial Killer Survivalist Popeye now.

17b) 338 Desperation.
You may sacrifice one hit point from any place on your body to add two points to your resiliency. This effect will not permanently remove the hit points from your body. In effect, you will be injuring yourself to save yourself.
cost:1 hit point per 2 resiliency.

An interesting last one. This explicitly states that the HP loss is not permanent, but doesn't say that about the Resiliency gain. So Francis can spend his downtime slitting his wrists and patching himself up to become invincible.

So there you have it.
Francis the Fragile Healing-Factor War-Hero Living-Compass Escapist Survivalist Dormant Serial-Killer Jesus Bodybuilder Bat-Emo.

In the harsh world of deadEarth, radiation is a constant threat, with it's realistic muta-I mean, Radiation Manipulations.

I'll work on his skills.

---

(also his Misdiagnosis returned  244 Sleepwalking.
Roll a D6 when you fall asleep. If you rolla three, the Game Master has the option of controlling your character while you are asleep. The only thing that can bring you from sleep, while sleepwalking, is pain.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 15, 2016, 01:48:53 pm

Well, I'm sold. I'm going to roll up mine:

I have no idea what I want to do with this, except roll the dice and see what happens.
Moves is the first thing to roll: 2d6 = 5. Eh, not so great. Below average, but not terribly so.
Resiliency, though, with d6+3 = 9 will really be great! That's a great start!
Age is next, with a percentile dice: 40. Oh, just on the edge there. Any higher, and the penalties would have started racking up heavily. Still, a -1 to a already meh Moves is much less than ideal. Dorisdwarf got much better rolls on the age front, it seems; mine were one and done. I do get 690 skill points out of the deal, which is nice. I am not sure about the 2d6 Radiation, though.

Now onto height and weight. Height rolls out to be a tall 78 inches, and my roll of 21 on the weight chart gives me height x3, or 234 pounds. It does give me a +2 to Moves, which is very useful!
They say that you get to choose your gender, but I'm going to roll for it. 1-49 is male, 50-100 is female, 40 gives me Male.
Player's Choice time. I'm going to have to go with the first option; rolling a d6 and adding it to anyone thing. d6 = 1... Ouch. That's not so great. I can't do a lot with that. I'm going to dump it into Strength to round it out a bit.

Now onto skills, which is buried after a thousand mutations. Holy crap, dude, can't that be an appendix or something?
Thanks to Random.org, I can roll Natural (In)Abilities quickly. I'm a natural at Escape and Senses, but a complete failure at Computer Operation, Hork, Interrogate, Memory and Stealth.
Eurgh. That's not a great list of things. Senses might be nice, I guess, but still, not worth a 2:5 ratio.

$tandards comes out to a respectable 1400 on 3d6*100. At least I can use some money to keep my character from floundering too bad.

---

I've got to head to class now, but as we stand, Ralph is a 40-year-old, tough-as-nails, fit, 6-and-a-half-foot guy, with a nice nest-egg, who has a passion for breaking out of restraints and noticing things, but could never figure out how to use a computer right, steal things from under people's noses, beat information out of people, remember his mother's birthday, or hide when she realizes that he forgot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 15, 2016, 01:55:07 pm

I'm beating my head against the skill tree, but I have to say these are some of the most functional and normal deadEarth characters I ever saw

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on April 15, 2016, 04:34:27 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on April 15, 2016, 06:24:44 am

For weight, I roll 5d6 and consult a chart (?), getting 15. The book isn't very clear, but I think that I multiply my height by this to get my weight in pounds.
This would make my character (Who I've decided to call Fragile Francis) weigh... 1080lbs?! I don't american weights, so I have no idea how well this conforms to the brutal reality of the deadEarth.

Actually, this doesn't seem to be how you do it. There's a chart here, but it's... blanked out? Whatever, I'll pick a weight myself for maximum minmax (Vital to the realistic atmosphere.) I'll take 260lbs. This gives me +2 resiliency and +1 strength (score!)

https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/deadearth-figure-c1/

Didn't read rest of post past this yet, but for 15 weight=heightx2, or in your case 144 lbs, +2 moves, -1 strength, +/-0 resiliency

Edit: OK, I'm going to do another character myself. Why not, right? Though I'll put mine in spoilers, because walls of text and holy crap I think Gentlefish was trying to talk about a different game and we're all ignoring him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 15, 2016, 05:04:06 pm

Since I'm only 40, I've still only got 2d6 Radmans, which rolls out to an average 8. Hopefully this will have less ups and downs than Francis.

413: Quicksilver. Subtract 18 inches and halve your weight. Adjust your attributes accordingly. Add three to your moves and subtract two from your strength.
...
And now suddenly, I literally can't carry anything, but I'm fast as sanic.

313: One tracked mind. Pick out a career path for yourself. The path should end with only one skill, such as demolitions or medical doctor. It should not be a jack-of-all-trades type of goal. Discuss it with your game master. After s/he approves it, any skills outside of that path will cost double the skill points to advance.
A career path doesn't seem much like a mutation, but I guess it's a bit like Asperger's? This is a tough decision, since it's so early in the build process. I'm going with Cybernetic Engineer, because the path is so large, and should let me be useful. Maybe I can build a robotic endoskeleton to fix my Strength?

429: Snapshot. You have a photographic memory. You have D6 (3) slots of memory in which you can store any information that you would like(a photograph, a map, etc.) simply by glancing at it. You may purge whatever is stored in those slots at anytime.
That's kinda funny, since Ralph's memory skill has a Natural Inability. Funny how these things work out, isn't it?

501: Elementary deductions. Add 2D6 to investigate.
Meh. Not really interesting. Decent, but not interesting.

424: Fit. Throw a tantrum every time something does not go exactly as you planned.
Obsession with one thing? Stunted growth? Poor memory, except for a bit of photographic memory? Inappropriate rage? I'm not irradiated, I'm arguably on the spectrum.

319: Insight. Gain natural abilities to D6 (5) random skills.
Drive Railed, Trapping/Fishing, Drive Sailcar, WS Blade Paired, and Swimming. What am I now, a D&D Ranger? Heck, I'll take it; it makes up for the bad Ability rolls.

530: Sacrifice. Every time you roll on the radiation table, you may adjust your attributes by -1 moves, -1 resiliency, and -1 strength permanently to reroll on the table.
Well, that's not too good for my second to last radman roll. It's also not really worth using, since my strength is already so bad.

610: Multiplexing. New directions in one's life are often obtained in strange ways. Compare each of your skills to each of the skills of the next player you come in contact with. Roll a D6 for each skill. On a roll of 1, 2, or 3, those skills are unchanged. On a roll of 4, 5, or 6, swap the levels of the two skills.
What
what even is this
I must have rolled the mutation to turn into a white girl, because I can't even. I'm going to use Sacrifice to reroll this.

765: Special procedures. Radiations may not be removed from your list by other radiations (that effect is negated). However, an impossible medical doctor roll or an improbable genetics engineering roll will remove a radiation from your list.
GODDAMNIT

This is a weird-ass game.

Well, that's Ralph. Now to work on skills.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 15, 2016, 05:37:46 pm

Right, so I decided that I was going to make Ralph a Cybernetic Engineer.
The good thing about that is that it has a HUGE skill tree, and so I can do a lot of things with those skills.
The bad thing about that is that it has a HUGE skill tree, and so it costs a ridiculous amount of skill points.

The full CE tree is something like this:
Cybernetic Engineer
Robotics Engineering (CE)  Medical Doctor (CE)
Robotics (RE) Medic (MD)
Mechanics (Rob) Electronics Engineering (Rob) Computer Programming (Rob) Biology. (Med) First Aid. (Med)
Physics (Mec) Electronics (EE) Computer Operation. (CP) Math. (CP)
Math. (Phy) Physics (Ele)
Math. (Phy)

That's 14 different skills. I'm going to dump all of my skill points into raising them all to 4d6, except for CE, since I can't afford that extra little bit of training. CE is only going to get to 3d6.

And that's Ralph, the stupid fast and tough, but weak, idiot savant of Cybernetic Engineering. I'm disappointed; I was promised that I would explode during character creation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on April 15, 2016, 07:18:06 pm

So far I've had over 50 mutations on my character at any given time, and I'm not done rolling yet.
Due to rolling up 935, Segregation, that got cut down to 18 mutations with at least 10 rolls left.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on April 15, 2016, 07:21:51 pm

Damn, now I'm into this shit.
I'm gonna roll up one now.
Edit: H'okay, got the sheet printed, time to start, I'm hoping I get a Sanic here.
Starting off with the name, as with any character I have no intention of using seriously, I name him Pizzazananaman.
So, to start, moves, 2D6, and I get a 1 and a 2.
This bodes well.
Resiliency, D6+3, and I get a 1, oh dear jesus.
Age is up next-And this is percentile, mind- and somehow, I get a four, it lets me pick any age from 16-60, so while it isn't great it ain't terrible, either, I'll go with 35, seems like a good age, and gives me 510+D6*10 skill points, leading up to 530 skill points, figures, still, at least I don't have to decrease my already horrible move speed or any other stats.
Height, let's see if my streak continues with a 6D6+48, and it doesn't! Somewhat, at least, I end up with 69 inches, weight is then calculated by rolling 5D6, then comparing that with the table to see by how many times the weight is multiplied, I get 21 total, which leads to Height*3, 207 Pounds is about a healthy weight, right?
Anyway, on to this unnecessarily obtuse table to see how many positives or negatives I get, in the end, I get 1+ strength and 2+ to resiliency, not too shabby, I guess.
Skills, I don't know why, but it insists on having a roll for every skill, after approximately infinity rolls, I end up with Positives iiiiin...
NOTHING! WHAT A SURPRISE! AND GUESS WHAT NEGATIVES I GOT? COPUTER OPERATIONS, DEMOLITIONS, AND GUILE!
Ughhhhh, alright, I get a choice between adding or subtracting a D6 in any of the main stats, which considering my luck, is going to be, like, 1, adding 2D6*10 skill points to my character, or being able to purchase new mutations at a cost of 10 skill points per roll, this is actually a tough choice, since I know, without a single doubt, that the mutation thing is going to have me end up with two sharks for an ass and no head, and that the first choice is going to get me jack all.
Whatever, I'll get the skill thing, which actually nets me a 6! Finally, I'm tempted to put them into strength and become the best hulk, so that's what I'll do.
Finally, I'm up to the radiations, I have seven to roll through, so let's get through them.

---

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

First off, I get 657: Possession, pretty simple, I beat their resolve roll, and for 40 skill points, I take control of their body for 2D6 turns, it's alright, if a bit expensive.
Next, 93: Ultimate Irony, wow, just... Just read the mutation yourself, and give me a minute to reroll all of my stats.
Okay, done, I'm not gonna be remixing every health point for every part of my body because screw that noise, but at least I have a few positives now, time to continue on my path of stupidity.
Third, 847: Humility, simple, D6 to charisma.
Fourth, 216: Shadow Beast, huh, so sunlight will destroy me, and for every minute a body part is out in the sun, it'll take one damage, but, while in shadow, all my skills are natural abilities! Cool.
Fifth, 234: Toxic Freedom, Toxins and noxious gasses will no longer affect me, doesn't say anything about poisons, though.
Sixth, 787: Double The Fun, see how many mutations I have on my table (Six), then roll that many random mutations, alright, I can dig that, sets me up to 13 mutations.
Seven, 781: Dumfounded, Another simple one, -2D6 to reason.
Eight, 169: Flaming Death, in 3D6 hours (8 hours), I'll burst into flames, killing myself and doing 4D6 damage to anyone withing 20 feet of me, hrmm, well, hopefully I get a mutation to offset that soon.
Nine, 87: Blue scream of death.
Your blood cells have lost the ability to carry oxygen. As your muscles are deprived of oxygen, they undergo painful spasms, and your skin turns blue. Unless you beat a difficult resolve roll, you scream at the top of your lungs from the spasms, doing D6 stun to everyone within hearing range. You will lose one hit point from every body part per minute until you are dead, whoopee, that still gives me a few minutes to fix this, time to set the clock to five minutes!
ten, 607 Cold.
Tell a target's subconscious that they are freezing. The target will try to seek warmth and will have -3 to all rolls for the next D6 rounds, provided that you can beat their resolve roll with yours.
eleven, 551 Aves.
You have cross-mutated with the local wildlife. Take D6 attributes from birds (that can be found in your area) of your choice and add them to your character.
twelve, 672 X-ray vision.
You can now see through many objects. The extent of your vision will depend on the thickness and from what material the object is made. Your Game Master will make these decisions.
thirteen, 176 Retard.
Radiation no longer affects you. Never roll on this table again under any circumstances.
And with 2 minutes eleven seconds on the clock left to live, he dies a painful, screaming death, unable to breath, as his body is wracked with painful spasms and his body shuts down, leaving him in the merciful embrace of death.

7 Hours and 55 minutes later, he explodes into flame, conveniently solving the problem of finding proper fire-starting material for his funeral.

There you go, ladies and gentlemen, the first casualty of the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on April 15, 2016, 10:01:03 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My opening rolls:

Moves 6
Resiliency 6+3=9
Strength 0

Not a terrible start. But we haven't even gotten to the hard parts.

For age, I rolled 32. Doesn't affect my moves, str, or res, but I start with 510+D6x10 skill points and 2d6 radmans.
I roll a 1 for skill points, putting me at 520, and for rads I roll 4. Honestly? I actually wanted more. Whatever.

Height, I roll 17, plus the base 48 makes 65 inces. Weight, I roll 22, putting me at heightx3, for 195 lbs.
The chart in the PDF is all wonked up, so I used the expanded height & weight table.
65 inches puts me in the same height bracket as Dorsi, but at 195 lbs I get +1 Move and +1 Resiliency.

So now we're at M7, R10, S0, and a carry weight of 30 lbs

Let's pick male for gender.

Abillities and inablilities. I already have a page set up that lets me roll 2d6 100 times and lines the results up with the skills; well, sorta.

So for abilities we have Buisiness, and Drive vessel.
Inabilities I got Beast Ride, Drive Sailcar, electronics, forensics, robotics, and WS Blade

For Players Choice, I go with the third option. Purchasing rolls on the radman table.

I buy 12 rolls, bringing me up to 16, and bringing me down to 400 skill points. I'll pass advancing my skills right now, save those points for later.

For money, my starting cash is 1200 $tandards.

Time for radiations.

1) 117, Read preturnatural
I can see how radiations a person has. Even if the person with them isn't aware of them. It costs 10 skill points to use, though.

2) 446, Compression
I can go to half height and wheight for a short time, at 1 hit point per minute.
So during this transformation, I go from 65", 195 Lbs to 32", 97 lbs, which on the extended table gives me -2 move, -2 strength. Not much reason to squash down that way, eh?

3) 332, Vigor
I gain 2 resiliency.

4) 595, Natural Weakness
If I'm hit in combat I take an extra point of damage. Not one I want.
And if I hadn't bought 12 extra rolls, it would end here, on this sour note.

5) 784, Cumulative Radiation effect
So for every roll after this, the number of radiations I get increases. 1 for roll 6, 2 for roll 7, 3 for roll 8, 4 for roll 9, etc

6) 287, Odds
I can call "odds" once per session to roll up to five times to make one roll that counts. Basically makes me Han Solo.

7a) 990, Darkness
If I have 075 Imprison (I don't), I get Blind, Deaf, and Quaquadruplegic.

7b) 475, Deviant
Great. this multiplied my future radmans by 1d6.

8aa) (Deviant: 3) 830 Charity
I can give 10 $tandards to get a skill point

8ab) 555, natural armor stun
I resist stun by +1 naturally

8ac) 491, Rewind
I may enter a trance each day that lasts 4D6 hours. If I'm succesful, a random skill is reduced by 2D6 and my age is reduced the same.
That's... not useful in the slightest.

8ba) (Deviant: 3) 902, Hope
I may double my rolls twice per session to help someone else.

8bb) 567, One with your weapon
All weapon skills become natural abilities for me.

8bc) 432, Mousy
Intimidate becomes a natural inability for me.

8ca) (Deviant: 2) 917, Estrogen treatment
It asks me to roll a d6, I roll a 6.
Which means I add all the mutations it asks me to add.

662, PMS, 424, fit, 005, homebody, 135, green thumb.
164, neat freak, 247, motherly instincts, 224, total recall, 171 grep.
156 winded, 524 weak stomach, 335 befuddle, 191 pockets.
129 moot, 109 dolt, 593 sympath, 192 instill psychosis.
094 made to suffer, 634 mind clutter, 132 hyperactive.
908 glass ceiling, 126 resistant
152 gender switch, made permanent.

It asks me to add another D6, I toll a 2 and gain 084 anorexia.
A d6 for fertility, I roll a 5 and avoid another sexist mutation.

I am immune to bitch slaps, and can use one to do 2d6 stun, and use one as a defensive move without needing to declair it.

This massive influx of rolls should also interact with cumulative radiation effect, but I'm going to pretend it didnt. Because I'd have to add 22*8=176 more radiations, plus whatever deviant adds on top of that.

8caa) 662 PMS
New attitude each day

8cab) 424 Fit
If something doesn't go to plan I tantrum

8cac) 005 homebody
Gain a skill point each time I roll domestics

8cad) 135 green thumb
Biology, herb lore, horticulture, domestics, and memory are natural skills.
I insist I do the cooking and chores.

8cae) 164 neat freak
I lose concentration when everything isn't orderly, and lose a D6 from moves, memory, and reason while in disorder.

8caf) 247 motherly instincts
I protect the other party members. Too well.

8cag) 224 total recall
I never need to make a memory roll.

8cah) 171 grep
Adds 2d6 to search

8cai) 156 winded
Cant do physical tasks for extended time periods

8caj) 524 weak stomach
I need to roll resolve to keep from tossing cookies at the sight of blood. Difficulty 9 to stay consious and 24 to keep from vomiting.

8cak) 335 befudle
I'm a psion! I can stun people by projecting my thoughts to their heads. They roll resolve against mine. They lose 2d6 moves if I win. costs 4 skill points to use.

8cal) 191 pockets
Adds 5 pounds to carrying weight

8cam) 129 moot
Can't make my own decisions. Comrades vote or a coin is flipped.

8can) 109 dolt
-4d6 reason
Because girls are bad at logic?!

8cao) 593 sympathy
If I take damage, everyone nearby must beat an average resolve roll or lose a D6 while near me.

8cap) 192 instill psychosis
I can make someone take -2d6 on all roles and act without morality for a number of days on touch. costs 35 points per day the effect lasts.

8caq) 094 made to suffer
All skills are natural inabilities for me.
Crap.

8car) 634 mind clutter
-1 to all rolls

8cas) 132 hyperactive
Add 2 moves

8cat) 908 glass ceiling
to advance a skill past 5d6 it costs double

8cau) 126 resistant
My shielding is +50

8cav) 152 gender switch
Duh.
made permanent

8caw) 084 anorexia
I eat half my daily rations and lose D6 lbs per week.

8cb) 640, Wretched
I add 549 horror and 621 disfigured mutant

8cba) 549 horror
When I meet someone for the first time they must roll resolve againsts 15 odds. If they fail, they will perform all actions at -2d6

8cbb) 621 disfigured mutant
Choose 5 + D6 cross mutations with various animals and plants. The first 5 must affect my apparence, the others can be of my choosing, with GM's approval.
I rolled a 1, thank the RNG.
I used https://www.scribd.com/doc/19971050/DeadEarth-Unauthorized-Book-1-First-Draft?in_collection=2331557 to find out which ones were animal cross-mutations.

8cbba) 103 Reptile
From the Iguana, my scaly skin can change color

8cbbb) 554 Plant
I breed by spores, which comes from my ribbed mushroom cap.

8cbbc) 281 Fish
Turtles count as water dwelling, so I take the ability to have a shell.

8cbbd) 278 Insect
Compound eyes, what else?

8cbbe) 624 Amphibian
Yep. Taking gills which I don't have to breath through, making me amphibious.

8cbbf) 463 Bloom
Me and the party have mutated into plants; everyone adds Bloom to their list and gains wrist-bands of flower-petals.

So at this point, I'm an ugly as hell lady with all skills being natural disabilities.

9aa) (Deviant 5) 707 Rite of aggression
I may choose not to act defensively or agressively during the first round of combat to double my moves during the remaining rounds.

9ab) 372, antiempathy
Everyone will know instantly if I'm angry, sad, nervous, confident, etc, giving them +D6 to their reason roll against me.

9ac) 261, small minded
I can't advance any skills with prerequisites.
Dammit!

9ad) 935, Segregation
I have to divide all my radmans into two cattegories by evens or odds by rolling a die, then remove one category based on a similar roll.

Code: [Select]

1: odd
2: odd
3: even
4: even
5: odd
6: odd
7a: odd
7b: odd
8aa: odd
8ab: even
8ac: odd
8ba: odd
8bb: odd
8bc: even
8Ca: odd
8caa: odd
8cab: even
8cac: even
8cad: odd
8cae: odd
8caf: odd
8cag: even
8cah: even
8cai: odd
8caj: odd
8cak: odd
8cal: odd
8cam: odd
8can: odd
8cao: odd
8cap: even
8caq: odd
8car: odd
8cas: odd
8cat: odd
8cau: even
8cav: Permanent, so even though it rolls an odd, it won't matter
8caw: even
8cb: even
8Cba: odd
8cbb: odd
8cbba: even
8cbbb: even
8cbbc: odd
8cbbd: odd
8cbbe: odd
8ceef: odd
9aa: even
9ab: even
9ac: oddand I roll a 5, which means I remove the odd rolls.

I'm going to quote what's left.

Quote

3) 332, Vigor
I gain 2 resiliency.

4) 595, Natural Weakness
If I'm hit in combat I take an extra point of damage. Not one I want.

8ab) 555, natural armor stun
I resist stun by +1 naturally

8bc) 432, Mousy
Intimidate becomes a natural inability for me.

8cab) 424 Fit
If something doesn't go to plan I tantrum

8cac) 005 homebody
Gain a skill point each time I roll domestics

8cag) 224 total recall
I never need to make a memory roll.

8cah) 171 grep
Adds 2d6 to search

8cap) 192 instill psychosis
I can make someone take -2d6 on all roles and act without morality for a number of days on touch. costs 35 points per day the effect lasts.

8cau) 126 resistant
My shielding is +50

8cav) 152 gender switch
Duh.
made permanent

8caw) 084 anorexia
I eat half my daily rations and lose D6 lbs per week.

8cb) 640, Wretched
I add 549 horror and 621 disfigured mutant
(but these ones were removed, hahah, so this does nothing)

8cbba) 103 Reptile
From the Iguana, my scaly skin can change color

8cbbb) 554 Plant
I breed by spores, which comes from my ribbed mushroom cap.

9aa) 707 Rite of aggression
I may choose not to act defensively or agressively during the first round of combat to double my moves during the remaining rounds.

9ab) 372, antiempathy
Everyone will know instantly if I'm angry, sad, nervous, confident, etc, giving them +D6 to their reason roll against me.

9ad) 935, Segregation
we just finished with this one.

I'm really glad for this, because I was rolling way too much. Getting rid of Cumulative Radiation Effect and Deviant means once this cycle finishes, I don't need to but a's, b's, c's, etc on the rest of the mutations.

9ae) 786 Setback
Well, I haven't invested in anything, so this only has a chance of affecting me, if I roll Search.
I pick random skills based on the number of mutations I have, and reduce those by a D6 if they aren't 2D6 or lower.
18 skills are chosen: Drive Tracked, WS shield, drive recreational, computer operation, pioneering, Drive non-motorised, beastlore, climbing, medical doctor, Intuition, boxing, brawling, mechanical engineering, WS blade paired, mining, drive cart, horticulture, command
None of these are search, all of them are 2d6, so they aren't lowered.

9b) 036 Mutable
-75 shielding

9c) 104, Supernova
When I die, anything in 10 feet takes 6d6 energy damage, 5d6 within 20 ft, 4d6 in 30 feet, etc

9d) 829, Envy
I have to have your stuff. It's mine, mine mine. And you have a sense of who I am and what I did if I take something, and if you catch me you want merciless punishment.

10) 900 Rite of radiation
I can spend 5 skill points to get another radiation at any time

11) 317, Blind-sided
No periferal vision, -1D6 to Senses

12) 774, Courage under Fire.
Entering a stressful situation I roll a d6, if it's even I get +2d6 to command, charisma, and resolve for the duraction.

13) 652, Extra limb
I have another arm and +2 moves

14) 531, Catlike
Climbing is a natural ability

15) 702, Low roller
Roll a d6... 1.
So whenever I need to roll a d6 on the rest of this table, it has to be 1 or less.

16) 867, Supplemental materials
Skills require 1d6 less of the prerequisite skill first.



OK, that's all my mutations unless I want to buy more with Rite of Radiation.
Here's what I had before radiations:

Quote

So now we're at M7, R10, S0, and a carry weight of 30 lbs

So for abilities we have Buisiness, and Drive vessel.
Inabilities I got Beast Ride, Drive Sailcar, electronics, forensics, robotics, and WS Blade

Now it's M7, R12, S0, and still a carry weight of 30 lbs.

Abilities: Buisiness, Drive vessel, and Climbing
Inabilities: Beast Ride, Drive Sailcar, electronics, forensics, robotics, WS Blade, and Intimidate
-25 shielding
+2d6 Search
-1d6 Senses

and I still have 400 skill points which I haven't spent, which I can use to make people crazy, gain new mutations, or spend on skills now.
I don't get that bonus to bitchslaps that estrogen treatment gave me, but I got rid of most of the detrimental mutations that Estrogen Treatment gave me.
Because I get skill points for using Domestics, I think I'll try to put points in there. No prerequisites, so I think I'll try to put some points in business too.

So lets' dump 10+20+40+80=150 points (down to 250) into Domestics for 6d6 in the skill. This lets me be a very effective house-keeper and cook.
For buisiness, there are some major prerequesites. https://www.scribd.com/doc/19873729/DeadEarth-Skill-Prerequisites?in_collection=2331557 tells me there are 7 prerequesites. Which if I go the bare minimum is 30 points in each, for 360 points. I don't have that many, I have to give up on business. it's actually 10 points each (70 total) because I only need 3D6 from my mutations.

So 75 points for each of the prerequisites, which are Senses (plus 5 points to bring it from 1d6 to 2d6), Intuition, Streetwise, Math, Reason, Apraise, and Haggle. That leaves me with 175 points, I put 30 into Business to get it to 4d6.

Now let's try to make my Envy easier to not be caught. Stealth requires nothing, let's spend 70 points to bring it to 5d6. (now down to 75)
I'd like Hork. I already have 3/4 prerequsites, so I spend 10 points on Guile, then 30 on Hork for 4d6.
I have 35 points left. I could spend them now on one skill, or up to 7 mutations, or I could save them to use later.

I'll get one mutation and see what it is.

17) 778, Shared Experience
I'm linked to the next Player Character I meet, will always know where they are and what they're feeling.
If they die, it gives me mutation 340, depression.

Eh. Situationally useful. Let's buy one more.

18) 628, Psionic blast
At the cost of 12 skill points, I can hit a target with an unseen force of 3d6 damage.
Now we're talking! And with 25 points left, I think I'll call that quits.

So we've got a color changing scaly lady with a mushroom for a head, working as a maid, stealing from whomever she works for (or whomever stays over at her place of employment).
She has a head for business, doesn't eat enough, has perfect memory and doesn't like it when a plan falls apart. And she can hurl blasts of energy at people who piss her off.
She's also incredibly easy to read.

Let's call her Alex. It's a somewhat gender neutral name, which makes sense given the sex change.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 16, 2016, 04:18:48 am

So, our party consists of:

Survivalist Jesus Bat-Emo Francis The Serial Killer,

Speedy Ralph the Spectrum Cybernetic Engineer,

Time Limit Joe, who has 5 minutes from game start (The game creator confirmed in the rpgnet forums that timer mutations in character creation start from the beginning of play) to get a mutation that can save him,

and Alex, the Chameleon Psychic Mushroom Maid.

---

So, Skills.

Francis has good strength, so I'm gonna keep making him a melee boxer. He's got +1d6 to first aid, so he can be a great medic. Hooray! I also spent a load of points learning Resolve, because Francis rolls Resolve to see if he really dies when killed, as long as someone else takes first aid/medic.

Skills:
Biology 4d6
Boxing 5d6
Brawling 4d6
First Aid 6d6 (including my 1d6 bonus from RadMans)
Intuition 4d6
Jury Rig 5d6 (including 1d6 radman bonus)
Medic 4d6
Navigation 4d6
Pioneering 4d6
Reason 4d6
Resolve 4d6
running 4d6 (+1 move baby)
search 4d6
senses 4d6
Weight training 4d6 (+1 str baby)
WS melee 5d6

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on April 16, 2016, 04:57:23 am

Worst part is, that last mutation makes it so I can never get a mutation again, no matter what.
So I might make a second character, see if he'll survive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 16, 2016, 05:45:41 am

Quote

Next, 93: Ultimate Irony, wow, just... Just read the mutation yourself, and give me a minute to reroll all of my stats.
Okay, done, I'm not gonna be remixing every health point for every part of my body because screw that noise, but at least I have a few positives now, time to continue on my path of stupidity.

I no have table.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on April 16, 2016, 06:22:28 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on April 15, 2016, 05:34:55 am

Here's a link to the unofficial deadEarth resources page (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/downloads-games/deadearth-resources/). I advise using the spreadsheet in "unofficial resources"


Here's a link to the character sheet. Bask in an entire page of unarmed moves. (https://www.scribd.com/doc/19873452/DeadEarth-Character-Sheet)

It's the first link, but for sanities sake, it's a winding bunch of little irritating changes, like switching resilience and notoriety or whatever it's called, rerolling the health every limb (And the limb system is far too complex than it needs to be) and a bunch of other bullshit, like shuffling my mutations, not rerolling them, either, just... Shuffling the order.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 16, 2016, 12:45:55 pm

Shuffling the order can be important, since I think there's a mutation saying something like "All mutations above this in the radman list do not function"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 16, 2016, 01:44:10 pm

I opened to the newest page and found you guys making deadEarth characters. What did I miss?  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 16, 2016, 02:13:06 pm

I'm letting them be silly, for the moment.  If the deadearth posts get too crowded I'll ask them to make their own thread, but for now it's fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 16, 2016, 05:06:53 pm

Someone suggested trying a FATAL forum game again, so I rapidly intervened with a (still terrible) game which doesn't make me want to punch people through the computer screen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 16, 2016, 05:22:30 pm

Yeah this really does seem like FATAL chargen except with mutations instead of immature, disturbing themes.  Good choice, much better entertainment (:

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 16, 2016, 05:50:22 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 16, 2016, 05:22:30 pm

Yeah this really does seem like FATAL chargen except with mutations instead of immature, disturbing themes.  Good choice, much better entertainment (:

No, it's more than than. It's that it's a much better designed game overall! So many fewer stats that affect other stats! So much easier to modify! Actual control over anything! It's amazing!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on April 16, 2016, 09:43:17 pm

This is pretty much amazing.
Who's going to GM? Do we have resources for GMing? Where is this batshit insanity going to be set?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 16, 2016, 10:07:57 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on April 16, 2016, 05:50:22 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 16, 2016, 05:22:30 pm

Yeah this really does seem like FATAL chargen except with mutations instead of immature, disturbing themes.  Good choice, much better entertainment (:

No, it's more than than. It's that it's a much better designed game overall! So many fewer stats that affect other stats! So much easier to modify! Actual control over anything! It's amazing!

"More playable than FATAL" is not a high bar to get over.  May as well say "this one doesn't involve quadratic equations."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on April 16, 2016, 10:21:49 pm

Oh man, we doing deadEarth? Gimme a sec while I roll up a radmanman. I hope I can get him killed off before the game starts, that would make him my 3rd deadEarth character ever and I'm not allowed to play because the other two also died.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 16, 2016, 10:22:44 pm

Heh.

I wonder how many possible combinations exist?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 16, 2016, 11:10:41 pm

Sent to find a dragon that has been terrorizing a trading route, and end up finding it assaulting a military camp. We were still a few hundred feet away, and it was flying, but the Ranger managed to put an arrow into it.

Demon dragon damn near killed me, and went burrowing underground carrying both our Bloodrager and I in its mouth. Unlike the Rager, I couldn't attack, since I couldn't make the concentration check to use my Kineticist blasts.

It eventually rolled a one to maintain its grapple on the Rager, so he got free and Dim-Door'd to the surface, but it still had me.

Eventually the Arcanist was able to cast Earth Glide on the Oracle, whom had used Freedom of Movement on himself, and saved and healed my sorry ass. The dragon teleported out once it was brought to low health, but the Arcanist was able to scry on it, and we teleported to its lair and beat it while it was licking its wounds.

Here's (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Woundwyrm) the thing's base stats, if anyone is curious. The one we fought was a fair bit stronger, and could grapple with both its maw and its tail. We're level 10.

I'm getting a Ring of Freedom of Movement asap. Shit's not fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 17, 2016, 09:54:18 am

Yeah, being grappled sucks.  My druid took a level of Seeker of the Misty Isle just to get a few rounds of Freedom of Movement as a cleric domain power.  After being grappled and nearly killed by a kraken, and later a boneyard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 17, 2016, 10:16:24 am

This is why I love playing a Wizard Conjuration Teleportation specialist in Pathfinder. Grappled? Nope, I Shift away as a swift action, no way to stop it short of antimagic field. Ruins the day of anything that tries to hold you down. The 8th level Dimensional Steps ability is also great for rescuing your allies. I've used it a bunch of times to grab grappled allies or pull unconscious allies away for healing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on April 17, 2016, 10:44:20 am

Took a while, but now I've gotten a character together. Why does Gamble have so many prerequisites? Is it impossible to play craps without formal training in logic and mathematics?

Str: -1
Moves: 10
Res: 4

Age Rolls:
69 (Roll again, add 2d6 radmans)
82 (Roll again, subtract 100 skill points)
64 (Roll twice, pick one)
85/21 (Roll again, subract 100 skill points)/260 + D6x10 skill points, 1d6 radmans

Age: 21
Skill Points: 90

Dear god.

Height: 76 inches/6 ft 4 in
Weight: 152 lbs.

Together, that's a -1 to STR and RES and +2 to MOV.

Gender: Male

Natural abilities in:
Beast Lore
Gamble
Hide
Horticulture

Natural inabilities in:
Mechanical Engineering
Medic
Reason
Robotics
Running
WS Thrown

I'm imagining a biology student/compulsive gambler right about now.

I add 2d6 (50) skill points to my character to compensate very slightly for his lack of mad skills. 140 points now.

The only skills listed are my relevant ones:
Senses 4d6
Hide 4d6
Beast Lore 3d6
Herb Lore 4d6
Horticulture 3d6
Math 4d6

So this guy kinda sucks.

Radmans? Radmans. I have 3d6 radmans coming out to a total of 12.

007 Belly up.
The next time you come in contact with a body of water, you will die.

We're off to a great start.

379 Hand of fate.
Roll a D6 and then move a skill of the GameMaster's choice to that level. If you roll a 4 then that skill will be at 4D6.

Rolled a 6. game master pls no bully

583 Berserk.
When you enter a combat situation you automati-cally enter berserk. While in berserk, you will use no weapons and no defensive actions, and your resiliency and moves will be doubled. You will not leave berserk until all of your opponents are dead.

Well that's, uh, OK? At least I get a combat bonus to make up for the fact that Hide just got much less useful.

292 Act of god.
If you get into a bit of trouble, ask the gamemaster to back up and start over. There is a 35% chance thats/he will. You may only use this ability once per gaming session.

As an aside, why would you do this? Writing metagaming into the rules never leads to good things in my experience. How does this even work in-game? What does it have to do with radiation? :v

740 Negate.
Remove negate and the last radiation on your list.

Never mind.

760 Sunspots.
You develop sunspots on D6 random body parts.Sunspots are raw, sore, splotchy-looking patches of skin caused by natural radiation from the sun. Sunspots make wearing heavy clothing or armor uncomfortable. -1 hit point from each body part which has at least one sunspot.

5 random body parts. I'm not sure where to roll for these at the moment.

986 Rite of the lost soul.
If you are ever in contact with a person at the time of their last breath of life, you may capture their soul,permanently replacing your strength, moves, and resiliency with theirs. Note that their renown does not carry over. You must take on all attributes, or none.

This is a message from Lord Nergal. "I await you on the dead Earth."

890 Promiscuous.
+D6 to outright lie, influence, and guile when dealing with anyone of the opposite sex.

I wonder if I can get skillpoints from this somehow? Need to get that gamble up.

046 Pervasive mutation.
Any cross-mutations you have that affect only a single part of your body now affect your entire body. Add a cross-mutation of the same type to every part of your body,for each cross-mutation you have. Cross-mutations that already affect the entire body do not multiply in this way.

Wow! It does nothing!

165 Sync.
There is a 25% chance that you will take on the radiation effects of the people around you, good or bad. For 12skill points you can use the effects of one radiation manipulation of your choice from anyone around you. You must know what radiations they have before you can use them. Therefore you must have been around while it was being used enough to know what it is or have the radiation manipulation (117) read preternatural.

864 The gambler.
Gain an extra skill point every time you roll gamble.

Stop mocking me deadEarth ;_;

167 Bloodlust.
If you see a combat in action you will be uncontrollably drawn to it and must enter. You will receive no skill points for any action you take during the combat. Instead you will receive one additional point of resiliency for each offensive action. You may not flee from combat and you must subtract aD6 from your initiative. When combat ends you will lose any extra resiliency you have acquired.

Damn it.

...He's not dead? Woah.

I declare him Gamer Steve the rambling, gaming dude who loves combat but is terrible at it.

Oh and he can only carry 20 pounds of gear. He's a cripple I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 17, 2016, 11:41:10 am

Ah, the other end of the deadEarth spectrum from the Doomed Mutant Gods.

(Roll % for random body parts is on p2 of the character sheet I think)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on April 17, 2016, 02:38:23 pm

The lack of realism seems to come from the consequences of the dice rolls rather than the dice rolls themselves. in particular, the height/weight tables seem to create surprisingly realistically-proportioned characters, although getting outliers isn't exactly uncommon.

I still remember my first deadEarth character. He was somehow great (for a deadEarth character, anyway)--he was good at driving RVs and making robots, so I figured he'd just kind of hang out in an RV building robots to get him food and water--until one nonsensical mutation put his Resiliency at 0 (and also made him famous) and he was doomed to die from the common cold within a couple of days.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on April 17, 2016, 02:48:43 pm

Quote from: greatorder on April 17, 2016, 11:58:27 am

So you're a gambling man that goes mad at the sight of violence and will attempt to join the fray.

You also die within 3 days due to dehydration.

Anyways, this is supposed to be realistic? Between this and FATAL, I feel that 'realistic' in these guys minds means 'It has lots of dice rolls'

It said body of water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_water), not contact with any water at all. I assume this means he has super drowning ability, though it would be funny if he dipped his toe in a lake and, suddenly, out of nowhere, a ninja appears and stabs him to death.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 17, 2016, 07:04:03 pm

The author eventually showed up in the rpgnet thread where I found this game (Which is why all the resources are free, he saw how people were enjoying themselves with his dead project) and explained the Epic Realism thing was meant to refer to the damages ( DeadEarth combat is ludicrously fatal unless weird mutations intervene), which they tested in real life by (with aid of alcohol presumably) beating/shooting up targets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 19, 2016, 01:24:51 pm

Somehow, someway, my kineticist went from being goku (Blue flame + air kineticist) to being ironman. We're on a Nazi Zeppelin (again, those who don't know, this world is custom made, so there are a lot of real world equivalents, and other references (elves are Nazis, quest giver is an older Indiana Jones, etc)) and we just lost the captain of the ship we ferry on and our beloved NPC ally. We got released by our questgiver's rival archeologist (Belladin) who freed us after another prisoner (unknown to us) went haywire. We get our stuff, but our magic and magical abilities are suppressed (so no Kamehamehas from me). We go down the hall to make our escape and we get into a firefight and see another airship on its way to us.

In a nutshell, we discovered that spirits from the occultist aren't affected by anti-magic fields (because "that guy" wants to be OP), causing two chimeras to run rampant aboard the hallways, my buddy gets almost thrown overboard until I blow the brains out of the one grabbing him, one of our allies DOES get thrown overboard but gets on top of the airship and cuts a hole into it and gets on board the second ship, who is confirmed to be run by our questgiver (Dr Harrison) and our allies (a lizard folk monk who's name I forgot (his race is the equivalent of the pandarians in WoW), Harrison's butler who's apparently a sorcerer, and a few others).

We make our way up to the upper deck, which isn't affected by the anti-magic stuff, so our groups "that guy" goes off to find the Nazi Colonel (who's kinda based on Red Skull) but finds several other higher ranked soldiers, but none as high as him, and promptly drops their strength to 0/1/2/3 (whatever the value is where they start suffocating because they can't lift their own body weight), and I look for the others while going super sayain charging power to blow up the Zeppelin. I find our allies we split off from (the NPCs) and we go to jump off/carry the others, and suddenly, one of our allies ships' engines falls off and on the Nazi ship, Harrison's son appears (he's a paladin) and he's covered in blood and has an "off look" in his eyes.

"That guy" summons a dragon (meanwhile, he's never even SEEN a dragon, only a dracolich (dragons are almost exctinct in this side of the world, and his character from this side of it)) and uses it to grab the paladin, while I fly off and IRONMAN THE FUCK OUT OF THE AIRSHIP AND USE MYSELF AS THE ENGINE SOMEHOW.

We broke off there, but shit is going down hard

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 20, 2016, 05:15:55 am

Our Pathfinder group is nearing the end of its campaign. The DM has flat out said he's got no further material planned for us after we finish our current quest. It's been a fun ride, and I'm looking forward to the grand finale.

Then, I'll try my own hand at being DM! Got a few ideas percolating, should be a bunch of fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: hops on April 20, 2016, 10:04:21 am

Looking at the deadEarthing, I really hope it turns into an actual campaign. At least, for science. It'll probably die in a week from everyone literally dying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: flabort on April 20, 2016, 06:15:08 pm

Quote from: Cinder on April 20, 2016, 10:04:21 am

Looking at the deadEarthing, I really hope it turns into an actual campaign. At least, for science. It'll probably die in a week from everyone literally dying.

Yep. We'd need a GM to volunteer, though, and a thread to play in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on April 21, 2016, 02:55:48 pm

Any suggestions for core wondrous items for an archer fighter? I'm about at the point where I'm wondering what to do with my gold, having grabbed the really useful stuff (composite MW longbow, MW armour to cut back the penalty, other random useful gear) and a less-critical one (cloak of resistance).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on April 21, 2016, 04:37:09 pm

Gloves of the Falcon and archer's bracers if you're playing pathfinder. Sniper's scope, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 21, 2016, 06:18:54 pm

Generally the best advice is to save towards having the "Big Six" items for your character appropriate to their level.

1. Magic Weapon
2. Magic Armor
3. Cloak of Resistance
4. Stat-enhancing Item (Belt of Giant's Strength, Headband of Vast Intelligence, etc.)
5. Ring of Protection
6. Amulet of Natural Armor

From there, it's assumed you'll branch out into various luxuries suitable for your character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on April 21, 2016, 09:04:31 pm

Probably relevant here:

There's a new Worst Game^TM on the block. (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/VTNL)

Meet Via The New Legends, in which the rulebook specifically tells you that you have to buy their 15$ dice-rolling box to play the game and explicitly forbids you from robbing stores for fear of damaging "game balance".

Quote

Roleplaying in the game is not a core component.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 21, 2016, 09:19:21 pm

Quote from: Tawarochir on April 21, 2016, 09:04:31 pm

There's a new Worst Game^TM on the block. (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/VTNL)

Oh, come on. It can't be that bad.

Quote from: Tawarochir on April 21, 2016, 09:04:31 pm

Quote

Roleplaying in the game is not a core component.

OH LORDY I THINK IM COMING DOWN WITH A CASE OF THE VAPORS

Edit:

Quote

The author claims he hasn't played in any tabletop RPGs because they would interferer with his artistic vision.

TURN BACK! TURN BACK BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 21, 2016, 09:24:36 pm

Been there, run away screaming from that, did not buy the bell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 21, 2016, 09:45:03 pm

After reading through that article, it sounds like it's a bad game, but it's not really worth comparing to F.A.T.A.L. It's a bad port of bad digital games to tabletop (which is kind of cool, since it is usually the other way around). It's got stupid rules, to be sure! But it seems to be a rough and ugly piece of shit.
F.A.T.A.L. is a polished piece of shit: you can see the craftsmanship, and you want to play it to revel in the absolute horror. It's an odd kind of masochism.
But VTNL just doesn't interest me. Honestly, from a game design standpoint, it's interesting. The mechanics are different from anything else I've seen outside of forum games. Hell, it could make a pretty interesting forum game.
But it's not F.A.T.A.L. F.A.T.A.L. has a certain... eldritch horror that this can't reach.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on April 21, 2016, 09:51:51 pm

Yeah, I briefly considered mentioning FATAL there, but decided it wasn't really in the same league. Like, in terms of badness from "best-worst" to "plain old bad", the scale is probably something like FATAL -> deadEarth -> Synnibarr -> uh, SenZar maybe? -> VTNL, with HYBRID floating somewhere in the void between dimensions.

Still though. The game literally instructs the GM to give dialogue like video game shopkeepers. You've gotta admit there's something just kind of charmingly stupid about how the author expects the players to enjoy following the barebones rules to the letter, not even with Synnibarr's rules about what happens if the rules are broken, but rather with the mindset that the players wouldn't even dare break the rules as set forth in the player's guide instruction manual.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 21, 2016, 11:50:07 pm

Quote from: Tawarochir on April 21, 2016, 09:51:51 pm

Yeah, I briefly considered mentioning FATAL there, but decided it wasn't really in the same league. Like, in terms of badness from "best-worst" to "plain old bad", the scale is probably something like FATAL -> deadEarth -> Synnibarr -> uh, SenZar maybe? -> VTNL, with HYBRID floating somewhere in the void between dimensions.

You forget RaHoWa in there. :P

Quote from: Tawarochir on April 21, 2016, 09:51:51 pm

Still though. The game literally instructs the GM to give dialogue like video game shopkeepers. You've gotta admit there's something just kind of charmingly stupid about how the author expects the players to enjoy following the barebones rules to the letter with the mindset that the players wouldn't even dare break the rules as set forth in the player's guide instruction manual.

Heh. You certainly have a point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 22, 2016, 12:19:04 am

DeadEarth is entertainingly bad simply because it could conceivably be fun to roll characters and try to survive. I'd house-rule natural ability/disability rolling out, but aside from that, it's just bad.

FATAL is abysmal in content and ruleset. Where deadEarth is misogynist, FATAL is subhuman.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Andres on April 22, 2016, 03:22:42 am

Cannot find 1d4chan article on deadEarth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 22, 2016, 07:55:10 am

Quote from: Andres on April 22, 2016, 03:22:42 am

Cannot find 1d4chan article on deadEarth.

Iiiit appears to not exist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: hops on April 22, 2016, 08:40:40 am

Quote from: PTTG?? on April 22, 2016, 12:19:04 am

DeadEarth is entertainingly bad simply because it could conceivably be fun to roll characters and try to survive. I'd house-rule natural ability/disability rolling out, but aside from that, it's just bad.

FATAL is abysmal in content and ruleset. Where deadEarth is misogynist, FATAL is subhuman.

You still have the radman roulette if you gain too much radiation in-game, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on April 22, 2016, 02:07:22 pm

FATAL is just dice rolls all the way down, really. I don't think there's much actual game, you just roll dice until your d20s become d1s

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 22, 2016, 08:57:52 pm

Quote from: greatorder on April 22, 2016, 06:22:20 pm

Quote from: miauw62 on April 22, 2016, 02:07:22 pm

FATAL is just dice rolls all the way down, really. I don't think there's much actual game, you just roll dice until your d20s become d1s

That's because it's super realistic. Super realistic in tabletops seems to mean 'dice rolls for. Fucking. EVERYTHING.

'Why do I need to know how many inches my anus can expand when I'm taking a massive shit!?' 'Because the dice says so. Roll a D20.'

I think you need a d100 for that if it's bad enough that you need a dice roll

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 23, 2016, 04:44:30 pm

And it CAN kill you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 23, 2016, 11:49:35 pm

One of my DM's decided to create his own variant of D&D. You roll for everything randomly with character creation and try to survive as long as you can. Our only handicap is the fact that the four arrays to pick from are really good. You get two classes and you randomly get a level in two classes after each level beyond the second and you just continue that as you progress. The only thing you get to pick is alignmnet; the rest is random.

He was planning on doing randomly built dungeons too, as well as other things.

Oh, and he's gonna record it. Its going to be put up and then one of the players and the DM are gonna work together to make drawings of it. If its actually enjoyable to watch, I'll post the links here. We're almost ready to start and I'm terrified...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 24, 2016, 04:58:23 am

May the dice be with you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on April 24, 2016, 06:32:23 am

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on April 24, 2016, 04:58:23 am

May the dice be with you.

Always.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 24, 2016, 06:35:42 am

Praise RNJesus/RNGod/RNGoddess!
I'm interested in that experiment, please do post links when they're ready.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on April 24, 2016, 07:35:09 am

Praise deusbot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 24, 2016, 08:31:02 am

Praise Pathos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on April 24, 2016, 09:27:50 am

Oh yes, that'd be cool to watch. I've always been partial to using little systems like that to turn a game about careful consideration of build paths into random chance, it's interesting to see what people come up with from the strange combinations of stuff they get.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 24, 2016, 10:31:36 am

The DM is currently making NPCs right now, so those are random as well. I'm actually expecting some far realm stuff to take place with all the chaos going on...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 24, 2016, 10:45:06 am

Quote from: highmax28 on April 24, 2016, 10:31:36 am

The DM is currently making NPCs right now, so those are random as well. I'm actually expecting some far realm stuff to take place with all the chaos going on...

A land of malformed entities assembled from incomplete fragments of a more coherent world? Sounds like Far Realm material to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 24, 2016, 12:34:12 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on April 24, 2016, 10:45:06 am

Quote from: highmax28 on April 24, 2016, 10:31:36 am

The DM is currently making NPCs right now, so those are random as well. I'm actually expecting some far realm stuff to take place with all the chaos going on...

A land of malformed entities assembled from incomplete fragments of a more coherent world? Sounds like Far Realm material to me.

Reminds me of 4e Forgotten Realms...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 24, 2016, 12:48:01 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on April 24, 2016, 12:34:12 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on April 24, 2016, 10:45:06 am

Quote from: highmax28 on April 24, 2016, 10:31:36 am

The DM is currently making NPCs right now, so those are random as well. I'm actually expecting some far realm stuff to take place with all the chaos going on...

A land of malformed entities assembled from incomplete fragments of a more coherent world? Sounds like Far Realm material to me.

Reminds me of 4e Forgotten Realms...

In what sense?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 24, 2016, 05:26:23 pm

Because every time a new edition comes out, WotC takes a hammer, smashes the Forgotten Realms to pieces, then tries to shoehorn the broken fragments of it into their new edition's shape.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 24, 2016, 05:39:29 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2016, 05:26:23 pm

Because every time a new edition comes out, WotC takes a hammer, smashes the Forgotten Realms to pieces, then tries to shoehorn the broken fragments of it into their new edition's shape.

I do admit, the 4e forgotten realms was horrible. Spell Scars and the fact several rifts to the underdark were around really fucked it up.

With Mystra (I spelled it wrong I think) coming back to life, it's good to see that 5e managed to get rid of the spell scarred thing. It was cool, but the fact it spread sucked. Usually when one party member has it, the others get it over time

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 24, 2016, 06:03:17 pm

I could live without the Forgotten Realms entirely to be honest.  I've never liked the setting, and the fact that so many people equate it to the default D&D experience saddens me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on April 24, 2016, 06:22:12 pm

4th Edition suffered very heavily from how the developers clearly wanted a completely new setting but didn't want to give up Forgotten Realms' brand recognition. The solution they came up with involved, among other things, literally dropping their new setting on top of the FR world with whole continents just being erased without purpose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 24, 2016, 09:50:01 pm

4e was interesting to say the least. I think with the whole thing with 4e was they tried to simplify it and make it more access able to new players, but made it a clusterfuck. It's almost impossible to have a 4e game without some sort of character builder due to how many abilities there are, how many races, classes, and so on.

I'm also surprised that a lot of things just bled out into the forgotten realms too...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on April 24, 2016, 10:12:07 pm

I've always preferred to do my own worldbuilding, so I was never really (retroactively) bothered by 4e changes to established settings. But what did bother me was that the 4e handbooks I bought didn't bother to file the serial numbers off of the "Points of Light" setting the devs were pushing. At least the guys writing the 3.5 handbooks had the courtesy to not outright say they expected you to be playing with Greyhawk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 25, 2016, 04:23:57 am

I love worldbuilding, but I have to admit I'm over maps. Specifically the one I'm making for my new campaign.

Ugh. So many trees...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 25, 2016, 09:33:30 am

I'm a shitty artists in both MSpaint and in drawing, so when I draw maps and give them to players, I tell them that it's from a 10 year old or something with a great spacial sense

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 25, 2016, 11:04:38 am

I've hand-built every world I've run since I was twelve, the first worlds were silly and inconsistent, but the feeling of creating a setting and filling it with things for people to enjoy has always been my favorite part of being a DM/GM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 25, 2016, 12:46:40 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 25, 2016, 11:04:38 am

I've hand-built every world I've run since I was twelve, the first worlds were silly and inconsistent, but the feeling of creating a setting and filling it with things for people to enjoy has always been my favorite part of being a DM/GM.

It's enjoyable to me when I don't have visuals. I have some very detailed worlds by description alone. But as soon as I try to give it flesh, it doesn't look right

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: PTTG?? on April 25, 2016, 01:28:07 pm

I've been meaning to give this world-gen system (https://thecollaborativegamer.wordpress.com/worlds/a-system-for-creating-fantasy-worlds/) a try. It's designed for live (or nearly-live) procedural terrain generation. One problem is that whenever I try using it, I only get so far before I come up with "little tweaks" until I'm rolling on a table to generate plate tectonics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: hops on April 27, 2016, 01:28:45 am

That make me think... cartography seems like an interesting skill to have, plus I might even be able to make some money from doing commissions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 27, 2016, 06:12:39 am

A (very early) draft of my world:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://s32.postimg.org/7oxb1n9c5/Campaign_Map_A4.png)

Not bad for having the art skills of a five-year-old.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 27, 2016, 02:40:22 pm

Still substantially better than my shaky hands can produce.  I have nerve damage from entirely too much hand-to hand combat, I can't use lightweight objects like pencils, spoons, etc. without jittering all over the place.

I actually really like your color and style there, with more practice you could make some very cool fantasy maps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 28, 2016, 10:47:54 am

Planned a big assault but one of our players had to leave early.  So our Gangrel wandered off on another "personal quest".  This time, my Mekhet followed her.

Apparently her personal quest is basically to start fights and win.  She's getting better, though - in the session I missed, "nothing" happened (in other words, whatever she did she managed to preserve the masquerade.  However, she's no longer rolling humanity checks for manslaughter.....)

I had to reveal myself and help this time, though, because she's still rolling atrociously badly for regular punching whenever I'm around (and then randomly rolling crazy high whenever she frenzies from desperation and grows giant masquerade-violating claws).  I had my incendiary ammo loaded, too... wasn't pretty.  One of the patrons actually managed to stumble outside, bleeding, and I had to chase him down before someone happened by (it was like 3AM).  As soon as he was dead, I was able to cloak the corpse in obfuscation so nobody noticed it.

I very nearly experienced an anger frenzy myself.  I *almost* resolved the situation nonviolently, by throwing a smoke grenade and shouting a distraction.  Two problems:
1) I acted a little too late, the gangrel character was already in a frenzy
2) The guilt over that murder I premeditated caused me to shout, basically:  "Everybody get down, this is a raid!  We're looking for drugs!  Okay, Kayla can recognize my voice, and that I'm causing a distraction."  Yeaaah, I'm suffering from honestly my favorite derangement ever:  When I commentate on the game, as I have a habit of, my character often unconsciously monologues it aloud.

I actually almost blew my cover a couple rounds early by volunteering "clever" one-liners during the initial fistfight.  It's the perfect derangement.

Oh so I almost frenzied because I came so close to resolving the situation (my hope virtue) but then someone lost an arm to giant fuckoff claws, AND I failed to even save the bartender by botching my grapple check, and she shot me point blank with a shotgun.  I didn't frenzy but I did basically cuss out everyone involved as I gunned them down.  I rolled 1 success for all 7 rounds, juuuuust barely resisting the frenzy but simmering violently.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on April 28, 2016, 11:03:30 am

So far, the chaos in that game I mentioned earlier has made me, randomly, a stout halfling ranger folk hero who's afraid of women, goofy, and his favored enemy is humans and gnomes. At level 2, he's going to level up into monk. He's also proficient with tinker's tools. The dice gods also gave me the 3 15's and 3 10's. And apparently, that's one of his worst arrays. I also got monk because I got one reroll on anything, and, despite how awesome it would sound, having a Ranger/Wizard is VERY counterproductive...

We also started recording (obviously since my character is set) and I choked at first. I'm expecting to be the guy who's the most experienced in D&D but also the most socially awkward because I'm not used to improv and such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 28, 2016, 11:25:16 am

My group isn't collaborating on their new Pathfinder characters, but so far I've had one Magus, one Kineticist, one Samurai and one Cavalier sent to me for approval. There's only one player left who hasn't submitted their character yet, so it's gonna be interesting to see how this group plays out without anyone carrying trapfinding skills, healing magic or arcane utility spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 28, 2016, 03:44:51 pm

Luckily, there's always Use Magic Device. Not viable at low levels though. Dem DCs are 20 minimum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Calidovi on April 28, 2016, 05:54:54 pm

First time with tabletops in general, running Alchemist (I convinced the dm to accept my homebrew sheep because I feel like anything else would be sacrilegious for my first pc) with a party consisting of a bard, wizard, cleric, rogue, and druid. Any tips for my first time?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on April 28, 2016, 06:30:23 pm

Depends somewhat on the party.

Presuming it's a fairly relaxed party and a good DM, just relax and try to get into the idea of player freedom more than worrying about the nitty gritty of mechanics and min-maxing - if that's what you're after, then that's what CRPGs are for :P )

Similarly if it's a roleplaying focused party, just try and get into the idea of player agency. I've personally found that the best way to get into roleplaying is actually to try not to force it too much, and it kind of creeps up on you after a while with a character.

If it's a mechanically focused group, god help you :P
More seriously, it's as legitimate as any other style of play I guess, but I can't really offer any advice bar being very careful with levels and stuff because falling behind in power can make these kind of games very un-fun.

Obviously combinations do exist :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 28, 2016, 06:46:17 pm

Never played one, so I can't help too much. My DM bans a lot of things for little to no reason. If you are playing Pathfinder, then I may be able to help a little bit.

The Alchemist in Pathfinder can do a little bit of everything. Extracts are like spells, Mutagen and Cognatogen are a bit like the Barbarian's Rage, giving you stat bonuses and penalties, and Bombs are bombs. You also get Discoveries, which do a very wide range of things, from growing a Familiar as a tumour on/in your body to becoming a still-living mummy.

I don't know your stats, but Alchs are typically based around Intelligence and Dexterity. You will need an Intelligence of 10 + the Extract level in order to use an extract. This means that you will not need more than 16 Intelligence, as your Extract levels only go up to 6.

Your 'Gens can make you quite a monster; literally. You can be a frontline fighter easily with the right Discoveries and a dose of Mutagen.

Bombs do a scaling amount of d6 dice, and also deal your Intelligence modifier in damage. With Discoveries, you can deal different types of damage, alter the shape of the blast, use area control abilities like unleashing a smoke storm, or even heal allies. Somehow. Though you don't get too many bombs, so they probably shouldn't be a primary source of damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 28, 2016, 07:03:12 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 28, 2016, 06:46:17 pm

Bombs are bombs.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZOcSWwy.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 28, 2016, 07:12:50 pm

Sometimes bombs are actually fish, or spiders. Or sentient. Don't be rude.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 28, 2016, 08:11:40 pm

A bomb's a bad choice for close ranged combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Calidovi on April 28, 2016, 08:40:20 pm

Thanks for the advice. I don't see the fun in minmaxing, I've always been more into the character aspect of things as well as participation in an overarching story. Part of the reason I placed importance on charisma is so that I can get the speaking part of roleplaying down instead of punching things in the face. I am running Pathfinder by the way, just to clarify.

However, I'm glad to note that I've been setting the right stats. I've been thinking of focusing on ranged dps with bombs, a bit of potion work with alchemical weapons, and a light crossbow with a small stash of bolts, mostly because I can count on cover by our melee rogue, cleric, and druid companion. Maybe that'll work, maybe it won't; it doesn't matter as long as I learn something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on April 28, 2016, 09:16:51 pm

I love minmaxing in video game RPGs, but yeah it's not so great in tabletop gaming.  I am guilty of optimizing my characters to support others, in lieu of having a proper character myself.  Which is not a good thing - I'm just not good at roleplaying, actually.  But I love observing it, so I have a strong incentive to mechanically help along the group and the GM.  So I often end up as both healbot, and "the player who keeps track of setting trivia and suggests quest hooks the DM offered sessions earlier" :P

It's a very equitable arrangement.  Only downside is I have a constant impulse to "police" the party, paladin-style (because we're the heroes, and heroes behave a certain way...).  I try to keep that in check and let things evolve interestingly.

Particularly since we're playing NWoD vampires now, haha.  I was very fortunate, last session, in that I wrestled with the Beast and bought it off with regret and hope.  My party members have mostly fallen.  That's the setting, and OOC I have *no* problem with that.  I just want to keep my character relatively humane...  I think it's important that a sneaky, conniving vampire maintain a strong link with the remnants of his humanity.  I mean, our gangrel moves like a machine now.  People instinctively fear her, and she looks unnatural.  Her human side has been mostly overwhelmed by the Beast.

But a Mekhet has to retain control.  A gangrel can operate instinctually (though they don't have to).  A Mekhet needs the finesse and long-term planning of a cautious and sentient human.

... Allied with the Beast.  Which offers such seductive powers.  I drain someone to near-death every other night.  Not because I have to...  I could feed once a week, or feed on animals.  But my character's vice is gluttony, and I *need* more blood.  More power.  I have to...
Feed The Beast

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on April 29, 2016, 04:06:53 am

Min-maxing seems pretty lame to me, but I can't deny the appeal of trying to optimize my abilities until I'm able to kill entire encounters of enemies with a single swing of my sword. It's... just... so badass! I can't help it! ;_;

Also you need to taking throwing/grappling-related feats if you have a halfling or other shortass in the party.
Hurling 'em into a horde of ghouls or other nasty enemies is always good for a laugh, especially if they've been making fun of you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2016, 04:14:52 am

Fling ally feat, anyone?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u266/eerongal/fling.jpg)

Sadly not Pathfinder, though there is the Ally Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/betrayal-feats/ally-shield-betrayal-teamwork) teamwork feat. Given they actually have to spend a feat on this thing, I doubt it's worth bothering with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 29, 2016, 09:31:35 am

Get hulking hurler levels, level cities with your halfling friend

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Calidovi on April 30, 2016, 08:47:56 am

I played a round, I used some bombs, I managed to cripple an enemy using bolts rubbed against a vision toad.

Good fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 03, 2016, 06:47:31 pm

Continuing my tangent from the WTF thread here instead:

So my vampire is Jewish...  We've decided that means he won't drink blood from animals, and prefers people with kosher diets, but he's also following the 10 commandments in regards to Jewish people (and other vampires).  Which means no stealing their blood.  Instead he's subtly influencing and observing the residents of our apartment building, forming an unwitting herd via Mekhet spookiness.  Eventually the entire building will be full of people who never think to eat pork or dairy, watched by cameras that nobody notices.

When his humanity inevitably falls enough, he'll probably stop considering Jewish mortals as part of his community.  Such is practically inevitable in the grimdark World of Darkness...  I'm making IC and meta efforts to delay the process, though.  Watching his party members get consumed by their beasts is actually helping to scare him straight, heh.

A nice thing for avoiding morality-debates (ugh) is that he doesn't have to police the party.  It's plainly obvious that the world is grimdark, and working with monsters is just basic survival.  He just needs to stay sane and do his best from within.  Right now that means avoiding conflicts with his illusions and social engineering, when possible.

Of course, tomorrow we have a mission from the Prince.  Specific orders, which he declined to budge on:  Find a certain vampire-hunter safe house and slaughter all within it, no survivors.  The Prince doesn't want prisoners, and neither do the other party members.  "Just following orders" is no defense against losing one's hold on humanity, either.  Not sure what exactly my character will do...  Probably help the party, though.

Oh, and my sire revealed that the "hunters" inside will probably be mostly unarmed civilians.  So...  I should probably be thinking of ways to make their deaths relatively painless.  Maybe... flooding the building with nitrous oxide?  My character might be able to acquire enough in time...

I'm not really worried about preventing combats, btw.  I think even the gangrel player is having fun intimidating and sneaking, and we do get in small combats fairly often.  Particularly while feeding, heh, which we tend to have a bit of "fun" with.  Even my character enjoyed sneaking with the Gangrel into a football stadium's locker rooms *during a game* to feed from a ballboy.  Why?  Because we could, and we stole a bunch of jerseys as trophies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 03, 2016, 07:39:50 pm

This Vampire game sounds like something I'd really like to play.

Don't suppose there are any interested GMs out there looking to start a forum game?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 04, 2016, 06:04:09 am

Quote from: Sirus on May 03, 2016, 07:39:50 pm

This Vampire game sounds like something I'd really like to play.

Don't suppose there are any interested GMs out there looking to start a forum game?

Aye...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on May 04, 2016, 06:14:29 am

It seems to be one of the World of Darkness games, although I can't tell if it's the New World of Darkness or the original.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 04, 2016, 08:29:46 am

It's...  the version names are a bit wonky, but it's New World of Darkness (Vampire the Requiem) edition 1.  Not the second edition which was called Stryx Chronicle but I'm not sure that's right anymore.

The main difference in Requiem compared to Masquerade seem to be that Abel/Cain and antediluvians aren't a thing, vampires just existed in prehistory probably for mysterious reasons.  The clans were pruned/combined down to 5 (with many existing as bloodlines of other clans now, but largely changed).  Celerity has its uses but no longer is a god-ability which gives you multiple actions per round.  Obfuscate is now purely a mind trick instead of actual invisibility, so it doesn't help against surveillance cameras.  And lots of other mechanical things about XP and combat.

Fniff is running a game in the same system I think, set in the Irish potato famine but with non-vampires in the party...  I don't think it has openings tho.

Whatever happens with this vampire hunter base tonight, I'm sure I'm going to share it~  I'm actually going to use caffeine to stay the distance, there's no way I'm letting RL stuff ruin this moment.

And in another session or two I'll be meeting with that renegade elder Gangrel I testified against.  The one who has demonstrated the ability to sneak into our hive silently, and has mysteriously declined to kill me yet.  My character is going nuts worrying about that, heh, but logically he's sparing me.  Probably wants to make an offer I won't like...  I've decided against trying to set up an ambush, though, since he seems to have clever allies who'd probably notice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 04, 2016, 11:24:25 am

I went ahead and added World of Darkness to the looking-for-game link in the OP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Calidovi on May 04, 2016, 07:58:51 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 03, 2016, 06:47:31 pm

-jewish vampirism-

How many bar jokes do you going to make with that premise?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 04, 2016, 08:07:42 pm

A Jewish vampire, a dissociative personality vampire, and a violent psychopathic vampire walk into a bar...
The Jewish ones comes of age, the dissociative one becomes Jewish, and the psychopath says "ow" and goes into a frenzy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 04, 2016, 08:43:12 pm

Yeah, I saw Fniff's game.  I think.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 04, 2016, 08:49:25 pm

Last time I played WoD it was as a 70 year old human who had entirely too many toys (due to insane min-maxing and an awesome backstory), in WtA (Werewolf the Apocalypse.)  I couldn't really fight anyone, but hells did I have fun running around harassing various super-human beings (protip: if your storyteller is really trying to keep things fun they will do such things as accepting that while a conventional round won't kill a vampire/werewolf, a .50 cal to the face has a substantial negative impact on the recipient).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on May 04, 2016, 10:00:28 pm

New player and I realized from an outside prospective how big of an asshole my character, Carver, seems. Being a true neutral, little impatient and easily annoyed by people who he thinks are not as smart as him (read as "everyone but his teachers"), and with the cleric being a snobby noble, there is a HUGE sense of hostility between the two of us. Our new player is a paladin, and when she ran into us and saw us breaking down the door to a criminal gang, I literally just said how it was while the others were trying to hide it. And quite easily, since we're dealing with criminals and how naive the paladin is, she joins us.

We head into the inn and get ready to settle down and find that damn trio of men again. After me failing to put a joke on them because one of them found a copy of Carver's robes and claimed he would make a great wizard wearing this (this peeved Carver for thinking that oaf could be a wizard) and they discover him. Wilneas then proceeds to sweet talk them into helping us, and after a bit of talking, they were about to help us get in, and then Wilneas has the bright idea of recruiting them to help us by saying their target, Wally, is the leader of the criminal gang we were about to infiltrate. They know he's lying and they get upset. I try to calm him down by sneaking Charm Person again, but I failed both, and then the bard mentions paying them for the info. Wilneas, upset he has failed, throws down 10 gold and they teach us the knock.

We rest up for the night and check out the library about our sword that we found that is a lot more dangerous than we think. We find no info whatsoever, and the cleric decides to ask the paladin to check, who promptly fails. I rip the sword out of her hands, do another check (and did better) where I found out the same things as I did before, and then I proceeded to say "It is infused with necromancy, has a 5 mile radius and involves stealing souls, just like it did two days ago! I told you this the last time you asked, and when you ask me fifteen minutes from now, 'what does it do?' I will tell you again, it STILL is infused with necromancy, it STILL has a five mile radius, and it STILL deals with stealing souls!" Carver is pretty much livid at this point, and then suddenly, something comes over the bard and, when we find someone who was familiar with the sword, the bard starts to high tail it away, pulling a gollum on us. I cast sleep on him (he has 7hp, no problem) and the cleric takes the sword from him.

And then begins the 15 minutes long debate. We argued for hours on what to do with the sword, be it that we bury it, we destroy it (carver suggested this), or we keep it on us until we figure out more (Wilneas the cleric suggested this) and Wilneas said that he will carry it because his god will protect him. Carver, at this remark, proceeds to say his god didn't save him during the goblin incident (he dropped to 0 in the first round of the first encounter), so why would I (an intellectual) trust a cleric who blindly trusts the faith of his god who has shown us that he can't save his disciple? And I proceeded to tell him that I don't trust him or anyone with the sword and I want it destroyed. He kept shouting random garbage about me being a heathen (my character worships Mystra (I think I spelled that wrong)) and then said that I might be possessed. At this, Carver (and me to an extent) got fed up with going nowhere and took the sword and Wilneas' mace and tried to break the sword, and I missed (-1 to strength doesn't help). He freaked out even more and then we decided to keep it along, but if it possesses the cleric, I destroy it.

We then proceeded to deal with the criminals finally. We get in using the secret knock and we split up (Wilneas, his goblin buddy, and Carver as team 1, the Bard and the paladin in team 2). Team 1 finds an empty room and hears the sounds of combat. Team 1 goes another way and ends up in a room with a dead guy chained to a wall, and ends up in a room right next to where Team 1 was next to (and could see into). Carver stays and watches as he sees them go in and the two guys inside (and the two dogs) stop their sparring (which was as brutal as open combat) and then the paladin decides she just wants to get into the fight for fun, and she offers to spar with them with the bard. The two, caught by surprise, agree and then the bard fucks up. He walks up to his sparring target, fails to disarm the guy and then goes for a thunderwave... And he hits the two dogs, the two fighters and the paladin (and her pet cat in her bag). He kills one of the dogs and that was when the gloves were off. I come into the room, hearing people assembling on our side, I weaken everyone and kill the other dog. Wilneas comes in and does nothing useful, and the goblin takes out one of the fighters. Then people start pouring into the room, and I set them on fire with burning hands while the goblin picks off the last of the two brawlers as the paladin heals the bard who dropped to 0. Wilneas manages to kill a guy with his mace, and the last guy starts to turn tail as two more show up. I burning hands and hurt the two again and move to take out the runner (again, the halls were connected) and the party proceeded to take out the last of the fighters, with Wilneas smacking the runner into the corridor I was waiting for him in and I froze him as his lifeless body flew by.

Our DM said it became eerily quiet after that and we ended off after looking around

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Calidovi on May 04, 2016, 10:09:14 pm

So, as a backup, I plan to play a lawful evil Cavalier once my existing Alchemist retires/dies. He's affably evil, a genuinely nice guy, but wants to overthrow a baron and enact an ethnic cleansing in his home state to reduce crime rates. His goal is evil, but his actions and mannerisms are less so (for example, he wants to proscribe entire races to living in drowning chambers, but doesn't like to speak very loudly in fear that someone may take him as being arrogant)- he's just delusional about the validity of statistics and the value of abstract knowledge. How can I best characterize a character like this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 04, 2016, 10:25:42 pm

Don't run the char as evil, leave the alignment and concept as is, but treat the char as basically neutral unless confronted with the target of his bigotry.  That way he/she/it seems fairly normal and can function in either an evil or non-evil party without difficulty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 04, 2016, 11:11:15 pm

So, honest question. Decrying minmaxing is pretty universal among non-munchkins, but is that a kneejerk reaction for people, or is it something you actually think about?

Because I've got a particular reason that I minmax: when I set up characters, I try to style the crunch into things that aren't necessarily optimal-usually, this comes out being a sorta weak tier-3 build, where it's pretty good at one thing or okay at a couple (or a solid tier-2 that's really good at one specific thing, if the rest of the group is going for power), but not really great. I tend to minmax things like that as much as is reasonable because I like the freedom of having the crunch side not fall into really old "this is what you do if you want to fill this role" archetypes but don't want to drag down the party by having a character who is pretty useless for everything. (There's also of course the God Wizard style of play where you heavily optimize a powerful class, but use it for the sole purpose of setting up situations that let the other players do cool stuff, rather than wiping encounters in the first or second round.)

In other words, I think that players have just as much a responsibility to avoid making a character that's universally weak (rather than situationally weak, like a character best at social combat stuck in a physical combat-heavy game) and a burden on the rest of the group as they do to avoid making one that overshadows everyone else. In both cases there's the obvious exception of a group intentionally creating that dynamic for the sake of roleplay, but that's generally not what you find in pickup groups.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 04, 2016, 11:30:05 pm

Optimizing characters to a certain extent is fine.

It is when characters feel more like a set of numbers then an actual person that you just kind of look at them oddly.

"Why hello... Weak willed, puny, scrony, ugly wizard..."

Which is the problem with Midmaxing even when it doesn't break the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on May 05, 2016, 12:16:54 am

My personal view is that min-maxing/optimization should be used to support a concept, not just to be the very best you possibly can. I'll avoid taking certain races even if they're the most optimal for the build if it doesn't fit the original concept, though will optimize class and feats heavily, but I try to avoid taking the most overused cheese combos, unless I'm trying to support a weak build (like for our upcoming game, where I took the Polearm Mastery feat, but only because I'm trying to play a fey pact bladelock).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on May 05, 2016, 12:33:30 am

Not everyone likes non-maxing, but everyone likes being powerful. ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 05, 2016, 01:19:19 am

My view is that minmaxing should be avoided unless you're going to be playing some sort of high-power campaign that requires specific levels of capability. If you have a minmaxed god-wizard in a party where everyone else is merely decent (or even above-average), then the GM is either forced to make encounters that might challenge the main party but the god-wizard can solve with ease, or make encounters that can challenge the god-wizard but are virtually impossible for everyone else. The power disparity makes for un-fun gameplay all around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 05, 2016, 01:23:42 am

Quote from: Sirus on May 05, 2016, 01:19:19 am

My view is that minmaxing should be avoided unless you're going to be playing some sort of high-power campaign that requires specific levels of capability. If you have a minmaxed god-wizard in a party where everyone else is merely decent (or even above-average), then the GM is either forced to make encounters that might challenge the main party but the god-wizard can solve with ease, or make encounters that can challenge the god-wizard but are virtually impossible for everyone else. The power disparity makes for un-fun gameplay all around.

Or worse he specifically cripples you in some manner... You complain, even though it is the most elegant solution, and the game breaks down :P

"What? Why are the monsters magic resistant? The DM is against me!"

Which is another reason why it isn't allowed. Because it is a problem introduced where the solution is equally problematic... yet required.

Which honestly MidMaxing invites all the dang time... and because a MidMaxer is often made of weaknesses. So a DM now is walking around a minefield to not disadvantage you, because your character can't handle it... because thusly the player cannot handle it.

So your weakness to say Reflex saves or Fortitude saves (thusly 1/3rd of the game) becomes off limits.

*Sigh* I wish I could DM... but I gave it up. For the best.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: hops on May 05, 2016, 01:55:22 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 04, 2016, 10:25:42 pm

Don't run the char as evil, leave the alignment and concept as is, but treat the char as basically neutral unless confronted with the target of his bigotry.  That way he/she/it seems fairly normal and can function in either an evil or non-evil party without difficulty.

Not treating an evil character like a one-dimensional stereotype used as an excuse to grief and make your friends hate you? What heresy is this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 05, 2016, 02:24:32 am

Heh, speaking of evil...

We play by voice, but I decided to type a summary during a lull as the others looked up mechanics.

Quote

JakeTheEar: Jake was stonefaced as he tossed the chemicals. Striding out of the cloud, he turned and fired a single bullet into the "receptionist" struggling with his beclawed compatriot. The dame, missing an arm and several internal organs, didn't have the common sense to give up. One of her desperate shots passed straight through Kayla's unnatural body, smoldering on the ceiling. Blood streaked along the wall, the matter resolved.

Then on the next turn, three more hunters burst in from obscured doorways behind us.  Ahead, a fire I set is blocking that exit.  Behind... these fucks shoot me with incendiary bullets.  As a Mekhet, the scorching flames effect me *double*...  I've lost half my health, and to vicious FLAME.  It'll take nearly a week to regenerate what I just suffered... in 3 seconds.

I whip my cloak and disappear from sight.  I fail to delete myself from their minds, but they still can't quite see me.  I scutter away, clutching the large smoking holes in my torso.  The beast... screams in my ear, telling me to run... but it's stupid.  Useful, but stupid.  I ignore it for both our sakes.

Meanwhile Kayla, lost in a vicious anger frenzy, tears one of the hunters apart.  Nightmarish claws rending flesh and bone, he falls to pieces. 

Hunger flashes in her eyes...  She's hungry.  My beast is telling me to run, hide, or at least shoot.  Instead, I appear behind the other hunter who BURNED me and GRAB him.  Vitae burns in my muscles as I pin his arms through force of will.  "You shouldn't have done that" I hiss, and paralyze him with my fangs.  I need the blood...  but what I really need is someone to draw my fire, and that means offering this vessel to Kayla.  She ravenously accepts...  Or her beast does, whichever.  They're both useful allies to me.

More hunters arrive from the north.  I slouch behind cover as Kayla leaps into the fray, claws wide.  I'm so close to true death.  But I'm... in... control.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 05, 2016, 03:44:25 am

Quote from: Flying Dice on May 04, 2016, 11:11:15 pm

So, honest question. Decrying minmaxing is pretty universal among non-munchkins, but is that a kneejerk reaction for people, or is it something you actually think about?

As a long-time DM, my response is this:

Minmaxing is not building a character.  Characters are people who exist in a world, so there is no reason that they would be optimized, because people aren't optimal.

Minmaxing is what I would consider bad roleplaying, as it presents to me someone not able or unwilling to deal with weaknesses in their characters.  the core problem is that an optimized character does exactly one thing, it does that thing extremely well, but it does nothing else due to over-specialization.

If all you care about is numbers at your table that is fine, but at my table (and the vast majority of tables I've played at) the focus is 'role' not 'roll', the dice are there to resolve the undefinables, not to be manipulated by huge bonuses so you can do whatever you want.  If someone sat down at my table and presented a gnomish or elven bard with max charisma and every cha based skill maxed, and then attempted to roll every charisma encounter instead of actually being charismatic, I'd tell them to go home.

I fully understand wanting to have your character be good at their job, but they aren't just a job, they are their own being, and to me minmaxed chars are just cutouts with no depth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: i2amroy on May 05, 2016, 04:32:32 am

Chipping in as a DM myself, I find a touch of optimization is fine (and in fact that's what some types players actually enjoy the most in the game, optimizing their characters over time with things like new magical items/etc.), but going more than that should be avoided. Of course my group is also running pure-base 5e for the moment, so there are a lot less opportunities for game-breaking huge numbers on a single thing that min-maxing provides than you would find in something like 3.5 or Pathfinder (plus the higher emphasis on DM fiat in 5e means that a lot of those loopholes that get abused get closed or fall in the "it works... this one time" category right off the bat). Combined with the fact that the 5e system itself is set up in such a way with things like bounded accuracy that in most cases your options for improving your characters are instead making them more versatile by letting them apply their small bonus to a wider variety of things rather than simply stacking bonus after bonus on the same particular skill, and I haven't had a serious problem with min-maxing yet.

Also while yeah, real people aren't necessarily specialized, it's still important to realize that if your rouge is clumsy enough that even with their bonuses the dexterous fighter is just as good or better at picking locks and doing rouge-y things than they are your rouge might as well have picked another class and helped actually contribute somewhere else. Min-maxing can very easily generate problems with characters becoming rolls instead of roles, but a total lack of it invites the opposite problem, where characters become so interchangeable that some of them start to lose a bit of their meaning in non-roleplaying parts of the game. A tiny touch of well-managed min-maxing helps characters settle into their different roles and ensures that the lack of a character can actually be a meaningful challenge/device that is felt and can contribute to the intensity of the story (such as your rouge being blinded while the bomb is ticking down, or the wizard being forced to scale that wall to light the bonfire since the fighter is holding off the zombies) without seriously impairing the game later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on May 05, 2016, 04:51:10 am

I just always prefer to roll for stats. As soon as point buy comes in it's a huge turn-off for me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 05, 2016, 05:16:53 am

Quote from: Yoink on May 05, 2016, 04:51:10 am

I just always prefer to roll for stats. As soon as point buy comes in it's a huge turn-off for me.

I dissuaded one of my gaming groups from that near-instantaneously by deploying a 4 CON 20 CHA warlock. Apparently playing with that didn't appeal.

Personally, I optimise in a kind of minor way. I make the best choices I can see, but I don't really go looking too hard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on May 05, 2016, 05:32:50 am

Dissuaded them from rollstats or point buy?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on May 05, 2016, 05:37:17 am

I'm... kinda wondering that myself. :P
I'm guessing point buy but it can't hurt to be sure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 05, 2016, 06:09:02 am

Quote from: scriver on May 05, 2016, 05:32:50 am

Dissuaded them from rollstats or point buy?

Rolls.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 05, 2016, 07:48:59 am

I would like to point out (as an addendum to what I said about minmaxing), that when players roll up a character for my games, I'm not a leave them as they lie (rolled in order and set in stone) DM, I let my players apply their rolled stats as they see fit, and I will allow them to roll multiple sets of stats (sets must be used cohesively), it tends to lead to characters who are good at their jobs as well as something (or things) other than that job.

I don't take issue with a player who sets themselves up to be a good ____, I take exception to players who abuse the system, a player who just sets themselves up to be effective is not a minmaxer, a minmaxer is abusing the rules to 'win' or 'be the best' by doing everything they can to have their chosen field at maximum possible (or impossible, but munchkins are a different story) values.

And as an aside, point buy is evil, and should never be allowed due to the hideous things players create with it (yes, I've done it too.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 05, 2016, 07:49:52 am

Eh, I've played 4 Con characters before. It's exciting!

I had all my players roll their 4d6b3x6 dice for our current game. Two got at least one 18, two got at least one 17, and one guy got royally screwed. They're all fine with it, because at the end of the day it's not about winning the numbers game, it's about having fun with other people at the table.

I'm also fine with my players optimizing, because that means I can afford to throw harder challenges at them as a DM. Why not see how much they can handle? It's fun as a player to know you've built a character that can deal with a threat designed for someone of an arbitrarily higher level than you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 05, 2016, 01:03:43 pm

I think point buy is perfectly fine. I mean, it's also fine if you wanta play randy random or whatever, but in my game the players characters are their part of the story, to be told (within limits) however they want. Which I think point buy works best for.

As for optimization and minmaxing, I think it all depending on A: Making sure everyone is on the same page. and B: what story you want to tell. I don't mind certain levels of minmaxery in my game, because my story is a highly heroic one. If I wanted to tell a less heroic story I'd require less minmaxing and optimizing probably (Although I'd also probably use a system other then D&D). So long as everyone is you know, if not on the same page, at least stay within a chapter of each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on May 05, 2016, 02:35:49 pm

There's putting the stats to make a character make sense, and then there's optimization, and then there's min-maxing. Because of course, in my gestalt campaign my wizard/druid is going to be intelligent and wise but bad with people, and a little on the weak side.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 05, 2016, 02:46:30 pm

So we spent most of this week's PF session killing zombies, which was actually quite a bit more fun than it sounds. We are now poised on the brink of a semi-climactic showdown with a demon and a demonologist who have been abducting the homeless to make more zombies, which may or may not go horribly for us.

The current game plan is for the paladin to charge in from one side with Shield from the wizard, drawing the skeletal guards and the demon's attention. The rogue/sorcerer and I (fighter) will then take the element of surprise (the rogue is invisible) to inflict as much damage as we can on the demon, by sneak shocking grasp and filling it with silver arrows.

After that, we really really hope the inconveniently nearby giant skeleton doesn't get animated. That would suuuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 05, 2016, 05:02:29 pm

D&D can be hard enough that you need to have some game knowledge and some optimization to survive the combat, at least in 3.5e.  A lot of serious monsters are designed to kill you in a couple rounds if you're not ready with their counters.  I usually just do point buy or standard spread and let that stand.  Rolling's no fun when you've got an average character and the other guy rolled 20 strength and 17 con and 18 dex.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: i2amroy on May 05, 2016, 05:29:31 pm

Yeah, we don't roll either since we've got one of those guys who is renowned for getting extremely lucky when he needs to; I literally watched him roll two sets of stats in a row, with my dice and right in front of me, where his lowest attribute both times was at a 16. After which his character went on to make half the party relatively worthless because even with their skill proficiency he still had an even or better chance of success than they did. The takeaway for us was that while rolling can be fun for a wider character spread, it's something that you might want to avoid when playing with the guy who is the type to regularly cross out other columns on his score sheets because he rolled "too many Yahtzee's" or goes to jail two turns in a row by rolling three sets of doubles... successively. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 05, 2016, 10:22:18 pm

Quote from: i2amroy on May 05, 2016, 05:29:31 pm

Yeah, we don't roll either since we've got one of those guys who is renowned for getting extremely lucky when he needs to; I literally watched him roll two sets of stats in a row, with my dice and right in front of me, where his lowest attribute both times was at a 16. After which his character went on to make half the party relatively worthless because even with their skill proficiency he still had an even or better chance of success than they did. The takeaway for us was that while rolling can be fun for a wider character spread, it's something that you might want to avoid when playing with the guy who is the type to regularly cross out other columns on his score sheets because he rolled "too many Yahtzee's" or goes to jail two turns in a row by rolling three sets of doubles... successively. :P

HOW?!

That's just insane!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arcvasti on May 06, 2016, 12:06:28 am

I prefer rolling, personally. Although that's because I like above-average characters, in general. Partly so everyone can feel heroic and powerful and partly so I don't accidentally kill off too many people because I actually don't understand how CR/EL works[Although I've been getting better at that lately]. Looking back, its a small miracle that only one PC has actually died due to my ineptitude[And this was at a level where they got better pretty quickly]. Plus, I kind of like the idea of characters with unusually assigned stats. Like a fighter with high Dex but low Con or somesuch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 06, 2016, 07:30:16 am

Quote from: Arcvasti on May 06, 2016, 12:06:28 am

I prefer rolling, personally. Although that's because I like above-average characters, in general.

I'd almost say that's a reason not to roll, you can have a high point buy to produce strong characters, but a roll, especially a roll where you keep the stats in the order rolled like you seem to be saying, is a great way to produce very weak characters. Not to say it's not a perfectly legitimate way of playing the game, just that your stated reason for liking it seems to be largely the opposite of reality.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 06, 2016, 09:59:08 am

First game of my new Pathfinder campaign went well!

Level 1 players went into a swamp to find some orcs and kill their leader for the bounty on his head. First fight is vs. two grindylows. Deep bog terrain all around, meaning 4 squares movement penalty per 5 ft. moved, and grindylows have a swim speed that lets them move through it normally. Didn't go well for the party, with one character brought to zero hit points and another badly wounded before they killed the beasts.

They retreated, rested at the conveniently placed NPC trapper's hut they found earlier, went back the next day and proceeded to demolish an encounter with two stirges, then a lizardfolk, then a goblin dog. We ended with them finding the ruined castle where the orcs have set up camp.

Overall a good session! Also, our telekineticist seems to enjoy picking up turtles and hurling them at enemies, which is a good running joke.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on May 06, 2016, 10:00:32 am

Quote from: Jimmy on May 06, 2016, 09:59:08 am

Also, our telekineticist seems to enjoy picking up turtles and hurling them at enemies, which is a good running joke.

If he paints them red, do they become homing missiles?   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 06, 2016, 10:12:24 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on May 06, 2016, 07:30:16 am

I'd almost say that's a reason not to roll, you can have a high point buy to produce strong characters, but a roll, especially a roll where you keep the stats in the order rolled like you seem to be saying, is a great way to produce very weak characters. Not to say it's not a perfectly legitimate way of playing the game, just that your stated reason for liking it seems to be largely the opposite of reality.

You often might get really terrible rolls for a character. But then there's those times when you hit the jackpot and get some truly amazing things. I mostly know the feeling from Stars Without Number, where random rolling tends to be 3d6 (with the caveat that you can reroll the array if you get more minuses than pluses).

Of course, SWN also has some ability score replacement (such as an automatic +1 in one of the two primary ability scores in your class to help offset really terrible rolls when they come into play) and the ranges don't get nearly as ridiculous as they do in D&D (3 is -2, 4-7 is -1, 8-13 is 0, 14-17 is +1 and 18 is +2).

Rolling your ability scores is, of course, anything but fair and balanced, but at least it's unfair by way of cruel fate rather than differing levels of skill. Of course, the greater trouble with rolling is that it produces things that are merely average more often than not, especially if the rolling is poorly implemented.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 06, 2016, 10:25:26 am

And thus I allow my players to assign those rolls however they like, or roll a whole new set, that may then be assigned however they like, as many times as it takes for them to feel satisfied that they have a reasonable stat block, or I until get irritated that they're holding up the game and tell them to pick one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 06, 2016, 10:32:58 am

But that's not really any less exploitable than if you simply personally vet whatever point buy is in place. The whole appeal of random rolling is gambling for your unbalanced stats. I mean, assigning your rolled 4 to CHA and your 18 to STR isn't any less minmaxing than doing the exact same thing with point buy. Granted, if you luck into having properly unbalanced (rather than merely disappointingly mediocre) stats, I suppose they may feel more 'earned', so to speak.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 06, 2016, 10:37:51 am

The probability of them ending up with all above average rolls is rather slim, and given the general power levels of my games, survival with scores below 9 is nearly impossible, so having the players roll several sets, then assigning the rolls with respect to their needs hardly qualifies as min-maxing, tho' it does have a definite degree of optimizing.

Min-maxing is a point buy term, that has become incorrectly assigned to the popular lexicon of gaming.  The point of min-maxing is to have the minimum necessary points allocated to 'dump' stats, and the maximum assigned to 'core' stats, so as to make your character 'perfect' for their chosen role.

The reason my roll system isn't min-maxing is because someone without the basic attributes to be a fighter is unlikely to become one, either by failure to achieve that status or lacking desire to do so, this still allows players with sub-optimal stats to choose such a role for story/characterization purposes without being so handicapped that they cannot function.

This ultimately ends up being about what a group wants from their game, as DM I want the game portions to move smoothly without large interruptions due to bad rolling, so the story portion can have more impact, and so that player decision is more effective.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 06, 2016, 11:02:21 am

I go down the middle and use the grid method that used to be up on invisible castle - 9 lots of 3d6 arranged in a 3x3 grid. physical stats along the top, mental along the side, each can be assigned a value from the corresponding column/row - but each value can only be taken once. makes for random stats but still gives players a decent amount of control, I find.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on May 06, 2016, 12:20:46 pm

I think that I like 5e's default array. It's balanced, fun, and prevents minmaxing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 06, 2016, 12:45:20 pm

To be honest, I think 5e in general is pretty good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on May 06, 2016, 03:02:07 pm

Why don't people play as LE characters?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on May 06, 2016, 03:08:17 pm

One of the players in the game I play regularly runs lawful evil characters.

In other news, I'm playing the shackled city, and I've contracted the vanishing. Oops. Time to dispose of literally all of those magical goods I was hoping to use. Except the spellbook. I can study that. That's not using it. What's funny is the list of spells in the book reads like some sort of PUA's kit.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Ench)Bungle
(Evo) Ear-piercing scream
(Ench)unprepared combatant
(Ench)delusional pride
(Trans)Youthful appearance

2nd
(Ill) ghostly disguise
(Ill) haunting mist
(Ill) mad hallucination
(Ench)oppressive boredom
(Ench)unnatural lust

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 06, 2016, 04:05:40 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on May 06, 2016, 03:02:07 pm

Why don't people play as LE characters?

People do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on May 06, 2016, 04:09:48 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on May 06, 2016, 03:02:07 pm

Why don't people play as LE characters?

Lawful Evil is the only Evil I ever play as, and the most common Evil I see played. NE is undriven or ineffectual, and CE is like wearing a button that says "I'm a muderhobo."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on May 06, 2016, 04:12:30 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on May 06, 2016, 04:09:48 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on May 06, 2016, 03:02:07 pm

Why don't people play as LE characters?

NE is undriven or ineffectual

huh

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on May 06, 2016, 05:06:52 pm

Pretty sure Nullforce doesn't want alignement discussions in here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 06, 2016, 05:15:30 pm

Quote from: kilakan on May 06, 2016, 05:06:52 pm

Pretty sure Nullforce doesn't want alignement discussions in here.

Aye.

There's a thread for that apparently.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 06, 2016, 11:49:01 pm

Quote from: kilakan on May 06, 2016, 05:06:52 pm

Pretty sure Nullforce doesn't want alignement discussions in here.

Thank you, kilakan.

Yes, please, bohandas may have been banned but the thread is still extant, so please take the alignments over there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 07, 2016, 06:06:12 am

To return to the previous conversation:
Yeah, I find 5e in general to be really good - there's minimal need to optimise as it's almost impossible to make a broken character without actively trying, but it still allows some room for those who enjoy it, just not enough to overshadow the rest of the party.

And to ask a question I've been wondering about:
I've noticed one of the biggest issue I have as a DM is maintaining player engagement in combat. About half my players tend to lose focus when it's not their turn, even when turns are running quickly or planning is going on. Is this an issue other people have, and id=f so, how does one rectify it? Within/outside the rules of 5e (even just homebrew rules or stuff)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 07, 2016, 06:36:54 am

Here's my tips:

1. Keep combat dynamic. If the player doesn't know what they're doing this round, skip their turn and move to the next person. They'll be prepared next time.

2. Offer bonus experience for people who keep their characters focused and play well. If they're on their mobile phone playing time waster games during combat, reduce their bonus experience since they're not involving themselves in the game.

3. Allow actions off turn. Typically I let my players shout advice as an immediate action during combat even if it's not their turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on May 07, 2016, 12:48:10 pm

I'm considering building a 3.5 (or possibly Pathfinder with some minor changes) campaign around Clockwork Horrors; any CR suggestions for the Big Bad Adamantine Guy? This guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187046-That-s-ONLY-CR-9-Let-s-Read-The-Monster-Manual-II&p=11102190&viewfull=1#post11102190) calculated CR 12 to be appropriate, but agreed that that still seems underleveled, given that he can sling around 9th-level spells with impunity; even making them, say, 3/day still seems overwhelming. What kind of level would you guys recommend?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 08, 2016, 03:02:15 am

If in doubt, add an extra 20ish hit points per extra CR for the monster and/or bump up its saves, then call it a day. If you want to be technical, advance its racial hit dice. Do the reverse for lowering the CR.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 08, 2016, 01:14:43 pm

Ah, Monster Manuel II's dubious challenge ratings

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on May 08, 2016, 01:41:28 pm

I eventually settled on taking away Implosion and Disjunction and making Disintegrate 3/day; I'll keep the final boss fight with him challenging by other means.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 08, 2016, 04:36:38 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 07, 2016, 06:36:54 am

Here's my tips:

1. Keep combat dynamic. If the player doesn't know what they're doing this round, skip their turn and move to the next person. They'll be prepared next time.

2. Offer bonus experience for people who keep their characters focused and play well. If they're on their mobile phone playing time waster games during combat, reduce their bonus experience since they're not involving themselves in the game.

3. Allow actions off turn. Typically I let my players shout advice as an immediate action during combat even if it's not their turn.

Cheers. The thing is, 1. and 3. are things I do already, and 2. I've tried in the past. It just doesn't seem to work with some of them. Not sure if it's the players, due to the fact it's quite a casual game, or something to do with my narration.

Either way, my current plan is to homebrew in a couple more default options for reactions and see what effect that has.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 08, 2016, 04:39:22 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on May 07, 2016, 06:06:12 am

To return to the previous conversation:
Yeah, I find 5e in general to be really good - there's minimal need to optimise as it's almost impossible to make a broken character without actively trying, but it still allows some room for those who enjoy it, just not enough to overshadow the rest of the party.

And to ask a question I've been wondering about:
I've noticed one of the biggest issue I have as a DM is maintaining player engagement in combat. About half my players tend to lose focus when it's not their turn, even when turns are running quickly or planning is going on. Is this an issue other people have, and id=f so, how does one rectify it? Within/outside the rules of 5e (even just homebrew rules or stuff)?

If the attention of your players wander, just bring it back to the game with a lash of a whip to their delicate facemeats.
They'll soon learn to focus on the battle at hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 08, 2016, 06:06:11 pm

After suffering many absurdly-long combat rounds in 3.5e (not due to the system itself, but certain splat builds) I've been intentionally reflexive in this World of Darkness campaign.  Every round is 3 seconds instead of 6, and system emphasizes non-combat after all.  So any time I take more than about 5 seconds to decide, I just go with whatever feels best.

It helps that the main combat character is constantly raging, so it's particularly ridiculous for us to stop and plan tactics mid-battle.  She literally can't talk.

It actually adds to the impact of combat, though the entire system does that...  Some vampire hunters were approaching while I fed on one of their techs, so I reflexively executed him to avoid detection.  That's a little chilling, in a good way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 09, 2016, 02:43:46 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 07, 2016, 06:36:54 am

3. Allow actions off turn. Typically I let my players shout advice as an immediate action during combat even if it's not their turn.

Talking is already a free action though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 09, 2016, 03:08:26 pm

but reciting a soliloquy isnt

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Max™ on May 09, 2016, 05:23:23 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 09, 2016, 03:08:26 pm

but reciting a soliloquy isnt

PC1: I say, 'Alas poor Yorick, I knew him well, but I really wish he had chosen to flank the beast so as to draw attention from our poor half-dead healer, upon whose leg said beast was chewing. Whether tis nobler to suffer the fangs and natural abilities of a CR 20 monster than to never level at all.' as a free action!
GM: ...
PC2: ...
PC3: ...
PC1: What? Talking is a free action right.
GM: Did you make a Perform check?
PC1: Mmmmmmmmmaybe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 09, 2016, 05:25:47 pm

I can never seem to be satisfied with characters I make in Pathfinder. Plenty of silly characters floating around my head, but the non-novelty ones are the ones I fixate on adjusting constantly.

Had a gestalt Kineticist/Barbarian. Will Save was bad enough to cause a dominated me to almost wipe the party, so I looked at a ton of other character ideas to fix that. This included retraining classes.

I ended up looking online for the best way to get an incredibly high Will Save. The answer is a Superstitious Human Barbarian.

Arcanist is my favourite Arcane Caster though.

And now I have a stupid idea of a Barbarian who thinks they're a Monk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on May 09, 2016, 05:46:37 pm

Quote from: Max™ on May 09, 2016, 05:23:23 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 09, 2016, 03:08:26 pm

soliloquy

Alas poor Yorick, I knew him well

/me hnnnnnnngs on several levels

In all seriousness, doesn't the DM's guide say to put DM fiat on how much you can talk during combat?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 10, 2016, 05:11:05 am

Quote from: Sirus on May 09, 2016, 02:43:46 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 07, 2016, 06:36:54 am

3. Allow actions off turn. Typically I let my players shout advice as an immediate action during combat even if it's not their turn.

Talking is already a free action though.

Talking is a free action. Free actions can typically only be taken on your turn. Changing this to an immediate action allows other characters to talk without it being their initiative turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 11, 2016, 08:54:58 pm

Gangrel vampire's player:  I stop being a wolf so I can talk
Social vampire's player:  How many police are around the van?
ST: Uh...... 14?
Social vampire's player:  Ah, k.
Social vampire's player:  I shoot at one.

My character went in a hunger frenzy as we tried to drive away from the combat site from last session.  Then the Gangrel went into hunger frenzy as well.
To be fair we failed like 5 driving checks in a row

We ate our unconscious hostage in the hunger frenzy, but fortunately they did (just in the nick of time) remember to drag my character out of the van as they shot their way to the sewer entrance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: i2amroy on May 11, 2016, 09:48:26 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 07, 2016, 06:36:54 am

1. Keep combat dynamic. If the player doesn't know what they're doing this round, skip their turn and move to the next person. They'll be prepared next time.

2. Offer bonus experience for people who keep their characters focused and play well. If they're on their mobile phone playing time waster games during combat, reduce their bonus experience since they're not involving themselves in the game.

3. Allow actions off turn. Typically I let my players shout advice as an immediate action during combat even if it's not their turn.

I'm not doing this right now since my group has some newer players in it (and thus they sometimes need a bit more time), but a adding a simple 30 second sand timer for "turn decision time" (including other player's advice talking) can sometimes really help keep the ball rolling by making people decide what they are going to do quickly or pass (we generally would say if you didn't decide in time you just automatically took the "dodge" action, but if you wanted to be a little harsher you could just say that their character stood there dumbfounded or something :P).

For rewards inspiration (or other DM given small rewards) can also be a big push as was noted. Players tend to be a fair bit more likely to decide to do things quickly once they make the connection that doing so has a chance of rewarding them instantly with inspiration or something similar.

Edit: Funnily enough I'm finding a surprising amount of children's teaching tools extremely viable for use in D&D (little plastic squares as markers for things without figurines, larger sized sand timers than the ones you find in most games... :P)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 11, 2016, 10:07:27 pm

A fellow party member wanted to use a feat that allows you to ready four attacks with a ranged weapon, with each attack having its own trigger event.

I almost thought the feat was third-party or something. Nope; it is legit.

He wasn't allowed. Then came the salt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: PTTG?? on May 11, 2016, 11:54:22 pm

How does that even work? Like, as in the individual arrows? Do you hold a fistful of of them and aim them all different directions on the bow?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on May 12, 2016, 12:45:50 am

Quote from: PTTG?? on May 11, 2016, 11:54:22 pm

How does that even work? Like, as in the individual arrows? Do you hold a fistful of of them and aim them all different directions on the bow?

What kind of bow would allow you to do that? So far I'm imagining a big ring with a spiders web of strings, and you held it with your feet while lying on the ground, prone, to aim your shot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 12, 2016, 01:02:27 am

Quote from: PTTG?? on May 11, 2016, 11:54:22 pm

How does that even work? Like, as in the individual arrows? Do you hold a fistful of of them and aim them all different directions on the bow?

A combat turn is about six seconds, IIRC, and the world record for speed shooting is I think less than 2.5 seconds per arrow. And that's just a regular human (although the record holder is basically the closest thing to an RPG character in the real world).

It seems plausible. A bit ridiculous, but plausible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 12, 2016, 01:23:57 am

I think you just sort of wave a bow with an arrow pulled and nocked around all aggressive like and yell, "Nobody Move!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 12, 2016, 06:07:30 am

Just nock four arrows at once and let them go one at a time. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Max™ on May 12, 2016, 06:15:28 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 12, 2016, 06:07:30 am

Just nock four arrows at once and let them go one at a time. :P

I was I was an artist, even a crap one.

*stick figure with a bow, four arrows, and a big grin*
*nocks them all, draws them back, and lets go of an arrow*
*it falls to the side and sticks in the dirt*

Alternatively:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/vXchS.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 12, 2016, 06:27:39 am

I'm reasonably certain DnD physics would make nocking four arrows a possibility, if only in a homebrew feat or somesuch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 12, 2016, 06:52:21 am

Quote from: Max™ on May 12, 2016, 06:15:28 am

Alternatively:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/vXchS.jpg)

Lol. +1 Throwing Compound Shortbow of Returning.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 16, 2016, 06:58:09 pm

This weekend's game got sidetracked from the written books and into a bit of whatever it is that the DM has in their mind. He had to modify part of the path to fit his and another player's backstory of being from an entirely different dimension. But then it got a bit too long.

Instead of what the player is normally supposed to go through, we met a Wizard/Dragon studying a rip in the space-time-continuum or something like that. Then a rainbow coloured dragon came out of nowhere and caused a volcano to erupt. The DM's DMPC solo'd it while we did nothing because we weren't allowed. Then we find out that the dragon gets stronger every time it dies, and the DMPC is the one fated to kill it until it is dead.

Then we spent over an hour out of game talking about how to deal with the volcano. Even though we have a damned scroll of Move Earth. The Arcanist summoned a bunch of earth elementals to dig around instead, but the DM made him roleplay convincing the elementals to help.

We wasted a ton of time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 16, 2016, 07:06:01 pm

Ew. DMPCs. Especially one that actually does things.  :-\

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 16, 2016, 07:06:28 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on May 16, 2016, 07:06:01 pm

Ew. DMPCs. Especially one that actually does things.  :-\

Yeah.  Ew.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 16, 2016, 08:19:02 pm

DMPCs should be extremely useless (but not to the point of being detrimental) in combat guides and nothing more.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on May 16, 2016, 08:22:17 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 16, 2016, 08:19:02 pm

DMPCs should be extremely useless (but not to the point of being detrimental) in combat guides and nothing more.

Well, maybe a healer if none of the players wanted to play one, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 16, 2016, 08:37:25 pm

I don't like DMPCs at all really, I do have an avatar who pops in to distract the hell out of the players, but he never actually helps or hinders them (sometimes he even gives them interesting things to do).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 16, 2016, 08:57:00 pm

Closest we've ever had to a DMPC was an enemy rogue who we successfully talked into assisting us during the battle.  We liked his quirky personality so much we made him a hireling, and eventually a cohort.  But he was really just an ally we adopted, and who the DM voiced.

Eventually I took over the character as a hireling, and that... didn't go as well.  I'm pretty bad at RPing by voice, and trying to voices is just embarrassing for me.  I'd actually ask the DM to take control of the character for RP stuff some of the time.  Which does make sense since he was technically evil, at least at first.

He actually retired eventually, reformed.  ... Not *good*, but with a sense of compassion and good sense.  I'm happy he outlived my characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Chevaleresse on May 16, 2016, 10:25:27 pm

our campaign generally has DMPCs because we trade off DMing and it doesn't make a lot of sense to have the current DM's character sit around and do nothing. I also like to run one but they usually end up on the back burner. Definitely not soloing dragons and shit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 17, 2016, 02:03:05 am

Quote from: KingMurdoc on May 16, 2016, 10:25:27 pm

our campaign generally has DMPCs because we trade off DMing and it doesn't make a lot of sense to have the current DM's character sit around and do nothing. I also like to run one but they usually end up on the back burner. Definitely not soloing dragons and shit.

This and healers for a party where nobody wanted to cleric are the only times I can think of a DMPC (as opposed to a Major NPC) being a good idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 17, 2016, 05:40:56 am

Yeah, I insert helpful NPCs only when I think there might be a skillset lacking for a particular required challenge, and even then, my campaign assumes that if you don't have the required character build, tough luck, you fail. Of course, there's always an alternative option to solve the challenge that doesn't require a specific skill, usually involving combat of some kind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on May 17, 2016, 09:42:06 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 05, 2016, 07:48:59 am

I would like to point out (as an addendum to what I said about minmaxing), that when players roll up a character for my games, I'm not a leave them as they lie (rolled in order and set in stone) DM, I let my players apply their rolled stats as they see fit, and I will allow them to roll multiple sets of stats (sets must be used cohesively), it tends to lead to characters who are good at their jobs as well as something (or things) other than that job.

I don't take issue with a player who sets themselves up to be a good ____, I take exception to players who abuse the system, a player who just sets themselves up to be effective is not a minmaxer, a minmaxer is abusing the rules to 'win' or 'be the best' by doing everything they can to have their chosen field at maximum possible (or impossible, but munchkins are a different story) values.

And as an aside, point buy is evil, and should never be allowed due to the hideous things players create with it (yes, I've done it too.)

A bit belated here, but this made me realize what the disconnect between us was. I've always considered the "game" and "story" aspects of a character to be, by necessity, part of a coherent whole; when minmaxing a character, for me, eroding at their character isn't an acceptable tradeoff for more power. The point is, as someone back there suggested, designing the crunch such that it enables roleplay rather than shutting it down. Someone who doesn't want to optimize their character at all would be better off playing a freeform just as much as someone who wants to powergame is best off playing with others of their ilk.

'Cause that's the thing. The person you make doesn't exist in a vacuum. Their crunch needs to roughly correspond to the power (though not necessarily competence, as long as it's not something liable to repeatedly wipe the party) of both the other players' characters and the campaign. Treating it as a nonentity is just as harmful as letting people do whatever they want, because when the Rogue with the 11/8/8/9/12/11 spread and Healer misses every trap, constantly gets caught stealing, and can't talk his way out of a paper bag, that's not an enjoyable experience for anyone who isn't a masochist.

That's the difference between freeform and round-robin storytelling as opposed to tabletop: stats do matter, as they do in any story where important events are decided by dice rolls. That's not saying that you should ignore character for stats (though if everyone in the group enjoys that, more power to 'em), but that you need to find a balance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 17, 2016, 12:31:52 pm

The thing about Roleplaying versus Roleplaying with stats is kind of simple.

In typical Roleplaying/storytelling every character is important and it is all about creating scenes for them.

In Roleplaying with stats characters are essentially competing for scenes in order to be relevant.

It is why stats matter in Tabletop. Don't got the stats, don't get the roleplay. No one gets to play Frollo Baggins on tabletop.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 17, 2016, 01:05:28 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 17, 2016, 12:31:52 pm

It is why stats matter in Tabletop. Don't got the stats, don't get the roleplay. No one gets to play Frollo Baggins on tabletop.

This is something I see people thinking a lot, but honestly I quite disagree. Although it depends on your GM of course, I find that in non combat situations a vast majority of the time even people who don't contribute mechanically to the scene can still make useful and interesting contributions though roleplaying.  When you're talking to someone, working out a puzzle, by passing a trap, etc etc etc. Even if you don't have diplomacy or mehcanics or whatever skill is relevant I've found that if you roleplay well it's a very rare (and normally very shitty) GM that will just totally shut you down.

Now, for combat situations, I think it sorta depends on the game, in a game where the mechanics are focused around combat (like D&D) I find it's rarer to be able to contribute purely by being clever (although still possible often, it just requires being more clever and having a flexable gm sometimes).

Not to say that stats don't matter. In games where stats matter they still totally matter. Just that... I disagree with the viewpoint that people need to compete for relevance and that it's impossible to contribute to a scene where you don't have the skills.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 17, 2016, 01:22:42 pm

I won't try to make a general claim, since I've only really played with one group, but after over 2 months I'm still loving World of Darkness for its open-endedness.  We get bogged down in combat mechanics occasionally, but not nearly as often.  And there's just so much vagueness (and miles of fluff in the book) which remove the importance of RAW. 

Sure 3.5e has rule 0 (GM fiat) also, but we mostly used it for resolving problems (like a broken combo, or an impending party wipe).  World of Darkness, and especially Vampire abilities, are constantly asking the players and GM to just invent rolls that seem appropriate.  It feels liberating.

Edit:  Though again, a lot of what we're doing now (applying situational modifiers, or stretching skills to fit a check) were totally things in 3.5e.  We just weren't using them much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 18, 2016, 05:30:40 am

I invent rolls all the time in Pathfinder.

For example, last session one of my players asked if he could set an ambush for the orcs the party are hunting. "Sure," I say. "Here's two options: roll your Survival check to see how good the terrain you find for the ambush is, or else roll 1d8 for the number of hours it takes to find the perfect ambush site. If you roll Survival, I'll draw the map for the spot you find, but if you roll the 1d8, you get to draw the terrain."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 18, 2016, 05:37:07 am

why would hunt big, strong, misunderstood orcs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 18, 2016, 06:28:33 am

Because dwarves pay 2,000 gp reward for head of Ironjaws, orc barbarian marauder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 18, 2016, 06:33:32 am

befriending him grants the opportunity for much more than 2,000 GP... ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 18, 2016, 07:19:55 am

But then they don't get to loot the 5,000 gp that he robbed from the dwarves and they wrote off on insurance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 18, 2016, 07:46:46 am

It's a completely irrelevant point, but legitimately befriending a maurader does bring the opportunity for more money later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 18, 2016, 07:56:45 am

True, and I'm happy for my players to have the game turn out however they want. I've got a Lawful Good monarchy, a Chaotic Good underground democracy movement, a Lawful Evil theocracy nation and a Chaotic Evil arcane power working in the background of the campaign, and no alignment restrictions on the player's characters. If they want to support any particular side of the greater background they're welcome to do so, or they can simply just murderhobo their way to level X+1. I'm just here to play the other side of the table.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 18, 2016, 05:36:19 pm

I don't think I've ever been in a free-roam campaign that ever ended well.

Mostly because bad DMs, or ill prepared DMs that can't anticipate player actions.

In my group, rails are necessary to keep people on task. Though sometimes those rails accidentally curve inwards on themselves and cause catastrophic crashes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 18, 2016, 06:33:49 pm

I think that while rails are important even in open-world, "River" would be a better term. With a river you can go side to side, up a little, or downstream much faster, or even pull up on the banks for a while, but the river is going to keep on flowing.

I guess what I'm saying is that while "You abandoned your quest to rebuild a local economy, Calgor the Evil burns the world to ash" is bullshit, it should certainly allow the aforementioned evil Guy's world-burning plans to advance, putting the players under a little more stress to go be big damn heroes.

It's why it's important not to give hard time limits - they take away agency from both you and the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on May 18, 2016, 06:40:50 pm

Very much so, yes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 18, 2016, 07:20:42 pm

Sometimes you do need the hard time limit, but it's best for it to not be something irrecoverable.  It would be fine if your DM set it so that unless the layers act quickly this (or these) locations would be destroyed/occupied/corrupted/w.e., but probably not for them to set it so that if the players don't resolve the situation within three months everyone dies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 18, 2016, 07:40:49 pm

Our socialite vampire decided that instead of feeding off someone, she'd just drank 3 gallons of pigs blood.
She got 1 vitae back from it- Requiem is very severe about feeding from animals and from stored blood.

I was laughing my ass off with everyone else, but my character felt sick and left for a while.  Being Jewish.  And also it was 3 gallons of freakin pig's blood.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: uber pye on May 18, 2016, 10:10:15 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 18, 2016, 07:40:49 pm

Our socialite vampire decided that instead of feeding off someone, she'd just drank 3 gallons of pigs blood.
She got 1 vitae back from it- Requiem is very severe about feeding from animals and from stored blood.

I was laughing my ass off with everyone else, but my character felt sick and left for a while.  Being Jewish.  And also it was 3 gallons of freakin pig's blood.

that's pretty amazing considering the normal human stomach capacity is a bit more than one gallon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 19, 2016, 03:46:13 am

We finally met up with our Gangrel's sire again.  The elder vampire I basically tattled on to the Prince.  The one who snuck into our haven one night to deliver our (staked, unconscious) socialite party member, and a demand for a meeting.

I had just received training in viewing auras.  What I saw was... terrifying.  I was hoping for some honorable warrior guy, who would appreciate my bravery in coming to the meeting.  Who might give me a thrashing, but let me go.

His aura was purple, with a shadowy tinge.  Veins of pure black ran through it.
Aggressive hatred, and the stain of diablerie.  This elder vampire ate souls.

Our socialite had never met this elder.  She held her ground for 6 seconds, turned, and ran as her beast screamed in terror.  He laughed.
My beast was under control.  *I* tried to run, terrified of the stain of diablerie.  Instead, thanks to my derangement, I stood there narrating my horror out loud.  He didn't laugh, just told me running wouldn't help.  To approach.  I had spotted his three allies skulking nearby.  I trembled and obeyed, pinning all hope on this monster having mercy... or no, a purpose.

Well, it was close.  He wanted to satisfy his curiosity before devouring my soul.  My stammered explanations were... true, but not convincing.  I tried to explain that I had badmouthed him to save his childe from the prince.  But when we called her, she didn't answer...

Fortunately it was because she was sprinting to the meeting place after all.  She appeared as a raggedy cat, missing most of her fur from serious aggravated damage.  In summary, she (somewhat disinterestedly) admitted that I had helped clean up her... massacres, on at least 2 serious occasions.  I had to desperately prompt her a bit, IC.

So yeah.  It turned out okay in the end.  My character kept his soul *and* is still alive undead, and only had to promise a unspecified favor in the near future.

Situation...

Okay 5 hours later we're in the sewers visiting the Lancea Sanctum and we're covered in shit.

Quote from: uber pye on May 18, 2016, 10:10:15 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 18, 2016, 07:40:49 pm

Our socialite vampire decided that instead of feeding off someone, she'd just drank 3 gallons of pigs blood.
She got 1 vitae back from it- Requiem is very severe about feeding from animals and from stored blood.

I was laughing my ass off with everyone else, but my character felt sick and left for a while.  Being Jewish.  And also it was 3 gallons of freakin pig's blood.

that's pretty amazing considering the normal human stomach capacity is a bit more than one gallon

Yeah, fortunately the blood is instantly transmuted into vitae as it's drunk.  In this case, a veeery tiny trickle of vitae despite chugging gallons as fast as possible.  Basically the rest of the matter is destroyed, leaving only the magic telekinetic "liquid" that powers vampires.  Though she did have to make a will+composure to avoid throwing up, since animal blood tastes horrible.  Particularly compared to fresh human blood.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 19, 2016, 02:32:28 pm

We had our first PC death last week. This week's session spent a fair amount of time on the aftermath of the situation that lead to that:

We'd just fought our way through an actual zombie horde, to find a bearded devil and a human cleric. Or rather, the rogue found them while scouting invisibly. We sprang an elaborate ambush on them, which started going downhill almost instantly when the skeletal snipers on the rooftops opened fire. Fortunately, the paladin and monk just brushed the arrows off.

While the devil tried to engage the monk, the cleric started to cast a spell. Unfortunately for him, the rogue was ready for this and was standing behind him, invisible, with a 3rd level Shocking Grasp ready. He went down instantly, which was incredibly convenient.

Some time later, the rogue tried to take on two of the skeletons on the rooftop after taking some shots and some falling damage. It... didn't end well. He passed out and was coup-de-graced.

So yeah, that was where this session picked up, basically. There was some pretty neat roleplay around it. The wizard kept brushing any sadness off as a result of his familiar's empathic link, I (fighter) ditched rationality in favour of anger, and the monk and paladin went silent for much of the rest of the time.

The end result was the evil cleric's corpse being pitched into a slowly closing portal to hell, the skeleton that killed the rogue's head being hacked off and taken, and some time later due to a combination of circumstances including drugging, the paladin stabbing the person who sent us after the devil. To be fair, at the time the rest of the party had just gone down to poison.

We're now in a comfortable jail cell with the new character, trying to find the best way out. My Knowledge: Engineering is actually somehow proving useful. O_o

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 20, 2016, 09:12:35 am

I think I am just about the ONLY person alive who considers EXP to be Experience Points rather than "Reward Points".

Though I wonder how much of it is due to people wanting to be rewarded for their faux-altruism or for GMs to incentivize alternatives that aren't bloodthirsty.

I mean I know I don't reward EXP for killing what doesn't fight back, or that cannot reasonably fight back, but that is because there is nothing to be learned from it.

---

Then again I remember Call of Cthulhu where using a skill gets you a chance to level it up. Thus players tend to use it even when the situation doesn't call for it.

Thus treating EXP as reward points serves as a way to guide players to find alternatives to combat because they are faster, easier, and safer. As well as allowing you to reward players for handling the scenes anyway they desire instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 20, 2016, 09:34:17 am

Point of contention: there's quite clear rules for gaining EXP for defeating stuff that doesn't fight back. It's called disabling a trap.

On a more serious note, if you're looking for a game that focuses on roleplay over combat, Dungeons and Dragons isn't probably the best game for you to play. There's dozens of titles out there such as Call of Cthulhu which are specifically designed to mechanically reward roleplay over combat. Dungeons and Dragons is, at its heart, about being a monster slaying, treasure hunting badass that fights epic battles and saves the world. It has subsets of mechanics and rules for other stuff, but you're really trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by minimizing the core features of the game in favour of a non-combat approach.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on May 20, 2016, 11:56:47 am

Wait, what? Don't you have a chance of the trap triggering whenever you try to disable it?

If not, dammit roguelikes, why?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 20, 2016, 03:21:35 pm

Thinking about why we're having more fun in WoD than DND (and even that's not entirely true, we had a *lot* of fun in 3.5e)...
When we started the DND campaign, which was essentially 1 single campaign for 3 real-life years, we were noobs.  As a child I had run a few games with my brother and a friend which I think were...  first edition?  Possibly advanced?  Honestly we were very young and we ignored most of the rules, it was practically Roll To Die without the dying.  Very free-form.

Later on me and my best friend had separately tried a few systems like GURPS and CoC, but via text.  Not voice, at least for me and I think him.  Short affairs.  Whereas our DM had played DND 3.5e before and was teaching us...  But it was his first time DMing.

My point is that the three of us (the fourth player dropped fast) were basically new to 3.5e and were trying desperately to learn the system.  And that made us focus on the rules, and optimizing.  A lot.  We didn't actually need to, it was just that we were all worried about pulling our weight and demonstrating competence.  It was...  not Ravenloft-grimdark, but a pretty harsh setting.  I think maybe we (particularly I) panicked and rushed things.

Anyway.  With this new system, we had a fresh start.  It's kinda relaxed, because we know what became tiresome in the last campaign (again, 3 years!).  I spent two sessions worth of XP on Auspex 2 so I could read auras...  So I could tell that the evil renegade gangrel who tells us to murder people is, in fact, a dangerous dude.  And my only regret was that I failed to save up the 4 session's worth for Obfuscate 4 that'll help me atone for a past sin (and also be useful, of course.  It's a level 4 discipline).  Keeping in mind that mechanically, this atonement will do nothing for my struggle with Jake's beast.  It just makes for a good story.

I can "waste" XP on that because I no longer feel like we're in a race.  We're all pretty good in combat without any specialization, and we can shore up our weak spots relatively cheaply due to the quadratic XP costs.  But infiltration is just as important, and social situations are... well, significant.

So actually I don't know whether we're just more comfortable starting fresh, or that the new system mechanically emphasizes something other than combat.  Either way, this is great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 20, 2016, 06:55:46 pm

Quote from: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on May 20, 2016, 11:56:47 am

Wait, what? Don't you have a chance of the trap triggering whenever you try to disable it?

If not, dammit roguelikes, why?

Sure, if you use Disable Device to attempt the check right next to the trap, instead of setting it off by using a Summon Monster spell, or throwing something heavy on the pressure plate. If the trap doesn't reset, you can then just walk past.

Also, even if doing it the traditional way, the Rogue is the one that faces the danger, but typically the whole party gets EXP for what is essentially doing nothing with no risk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 20, 2016, 07:06:45 pm

Yeah, summoned monsters are kinda OP in general.
Not in a pure combat sense- there they're sorta underleveled, or were in our campaign.  They made good distractions - and that's exactly it.  They're basically free hirelings, without any of the moral qualms because they cannot actually die. 

As a druid I never had one use test an item or trigger a trap, but that's mostly because I didn't think of it.  I did have them run suicidal distraction ops mid-combat, almost constantly.  Because they would dematerialize and be okay as soon as they "died".

Sure, I was mostly controlling animals as a druid, who wouldn't be intelligent or have the right slots.  But a relatively low-level druid can summon a satyr slave do test anything.  And unless the DM gets particularly inventive, that satyr will be immune to any ill effects.

...Unless you rule that summoned creatures take worn items with them when they despawn?  Which would be pretty weird considering their free reincarnation (not even resurrection!), but maybe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 21, 2016, 12:43:49 am

I'd strongly disagree, at least regarding 3.5e or Pathfinder and the usefulness of summoned monsters.

Summoner classes in these systems has always been my favourite since I first played a Tiefling Conjuration Wizard. Think about it: every action the summoned creature takes is essentially an extra action you get every round. Every attack your summoned creature takes is an attack that you don't need to worry about healing or blocking. You're breaking the action economy, one of the cornerstones of the game system. Plus the creatures you can summon often have access to stuff your character can't do, be it flying, burrowing, casting from a classes spell list or using supernatural abilities or non-standard senses like tremorsense or automatic true seeing.

All of this, for the cost of a full round spell? Sign me up!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 04:39:10 am

But then again 3.5 was still in the Era of "We want Spell casters to be outright better than everyone else" (Linear Warriors, Quadratic Magicians)

And there are quite a few things in 3.5 I just didn't agree with. From intentionally mislabeling the CR of some monsters (Dragons specifically), to excessive save or die mechanics, to some really annoying enemies... Not to mention the over reliance on Rogues and Clerics. With Rogues being so necessary that they built multiple rogues over the years so you wouldn't be stuck playing one.

With Pathfinder fixing SOME of the issues (Fighters are a LOT more amazing in Pathfinder then they are in 3.5) but not all of them (Rogues are still absolutely necessary to the point where one adventure path HILLARIOUSLY includes a feat that exists only so the players don't have to have one). Pathfinder is interesting because it didn't actually introduce many flaws to the game where the problems with Pathfinder are problems that still exists with 3.5.

4e which it the greatest side product of dungeons and dragons ever made!... released as the 4th edition. Essentially murdering its potential.

And 5e which is a HUGE step in the right direction in many ways as we discussed... But achieved it by murdering character creation and essentially customization and owning your character. Along with having an odd absolute refusal to expand its content beyond adventure paths... adventure paths which have an allergy to levels above 15

---

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind that there are roles in dungeons and dragons as far as Rogues are concerned. The issue is that Rogue is one class in an ever expanding class list... AND while a party have other options to deal with a situation that might require a wizard or a cleric... situations that require a Rogue can only exclusively be handled by a Rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 21, 2016, 04:44:53 am

My group's been playing for a few months, and nothing's ever come up that only a rogue could handle. Admittedly, our DM is very good.

I definitely agree that fighters are a lot better in PF.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 04:56:20 am

Quote from: Arx on May 21, 2016, 04:44:53 am

My group's been playing for a few months, and nothing's ever come up that only a rogue could handle. Admittedly, our DM is very good.

I definitely agree that fighters are a lot better in PF.

Most DMs when there are no Rogues will just not use situations that call for Rogues.

Creating some sort of weird alternative Universe. It always breaks my immersion because it is very noticeable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 21, 2016, 05:16:11 am

What kind of situation are you thinking of that requires a rogue specifically? We've pulled off breaking and entering without leaving traces and infiltrating a heavily guarded mansion to steal a dragon egg. Both of those kind of favour having a rogue in the party, but we managed both.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 05:24:10 am

Having your soul sucked out by a wall.

That save was lucky. But to admit the rogue couldn't fix that situation either due to being a area of death. So we had to go around it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 21, 2016, 05:26:28 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 05:24:10 am

Having your soul sucked out by a wall.

No offence Neo, but that's very specific. :P

If you mean traps in general, then I guess I just disagree. Our campaign is set almost entirely in an urban area, with occasional forays into the outlying villages. I'd be much more surprised if we did find traps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 05:31:20 am

Yeah, I'd go with Arx: The kinds of situations that require a rogue are incredibly rare, and basically all of them are intended as death traps anyway. And death traps really shouldn't be all that common in most adventures.

Even then, pretty much any trap should have some way to prevent/circumvent it bar 'roll disable trap', especially if immersion is the issue. A clever rogue-less group should be able to bypass most if not all traps with some effort.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 05:36:41 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 05:31:20 am

Even then, pretty much any trap should have some way to prevent/circumvent it bar 'roll disable trap', especially if immersion is the issue. A clever rogue-less group should be able to bypass most if not all traps with some effort.

What your talking about specifically goes against the book as written. The book goes out of its way to highlight that it is IMPOSSIBLE to even as much as see most traps unless your a Rogue and in some cases even disable them. As well all traps are specifically balanced for the existence of the Rogue as well.

And as always I do not give credit to a system because good DMs learned to ignore the bad sections.

Along with this traps are extremely common in dungeons and dragons lore, especially in an Urban setting (Some adventures in Urban settings being some sort of odd deathtrap dungeon)

But no it isn't just traps anyhow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 05:44:00 am

Well, that depends on the book - in 5e they very much say the opposite :P

But yeah, only owning the 5e books I can't comment on the other systems, bar that different systems work differently with different groups - some more mechanically minded players would enjoy the 'reward' of being able to disarm the traps because they brought a rogue, though I don't personally see it. To try and get a system to fit any party, DMs essentially have to break the rules to fit the group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 05:46:53 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 05:44:00 am

Well, that depends on the book - in 5e they very much say the opposite :P

But yeah, only owning the 5e books I can't comment on the other systems, bar that different systems work differently with different groups - some more mechanically minded players would enjoy the 'reward' of being able to disarm the traps because they brought a rogue, though I don't personally see it. To try and get a system to fit any party, DMs essentially have to break the rules to fit the group.

Hey 5e fixes all that and doesn't exactly rely on traps a lot (One dungeon that had a LOT of traps was because the guy who built it was a total coward who actually could have killed you... if he wasn't so cowardly. As well most of his traps are like... A box filled with rocks and can be spotted by anyone in the party) AND allows all Rogue skills to be used by everyone else AND doesn't give Rogues super duper abilities.

5e 100% fixed Rogues.

I'd love to run a 5e game again. But I promised myself that I wouldn't GM anymore. >_< sucks though because I do want to. My last game went really poorly and murdered me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 06:01:05 am

Yeah, I run 5e for a reason. (I wouldn't say rogues can't get super duper abilities - the 14th level rogue in my game can't possibly get lower that ~25 on a stealth roll :P - but they're not rogue limited I think is the important point.)

Might I ask why you did, as well, just from curiosity?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 06:06:44 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 06:01:05 am

Yeah, I run 5e for a reason. Might I ask why you did, as well, just from curiosity?

Why I run 5e?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 06:08:33 am

Why you promised to stop GMing, if you want to. Seems a little bizarre :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 06:09:56 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 06:08:33 am

Why you promised to stop GMing, if you want to. Seems a little bizarre :P

Because it always ends the same way and it isn't fair to the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 06:25:28 am

Alright. I won't inquire further then.

But yeah, 5e = good. If you're concerned about customisation, what I do is just to introduce story based rewards in parallel. There's an (unofficial) epic level handbook available for free on the DM's Guild which gives good inspiration for rewards GMs can hand out, though obviously if you're playing you'd have to sweeten up the GM a bit first :P

As an example, one of the epic barbarian features expands the reckless attack so that all attacks you make are crits and all you take are crits (as an option). The party's fighter has nearly been one hit killed by crits on multiple occasions (I add exploding die to crits, just because I like the added tension it gives to them), and so I offered him that feature. He didn't end up[ taking it, instead opting for my made up feature of 'If a crit would take you through 0 HP, you are instead reduced to 1 HP. A second crit doesn't trigger this'. But still, features with drawbacks are good candidates for this, as they reward clever use of them, whilst offering no net benefit that ups the base power level of the character. Another example might be a character gaining resist fire but vulnerability to cold, which rewards them for picking their fights carefully, but on if they don't then it somewhat averages out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 06:31:37 am

It isn't tragic, I usually fall behind in prep or have a few bad games in a row and become depressed.

Last game ended due to something... really terrible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on May 21, 2016, 06:41:10 am

Ah. My general tactic for not prepping is just to wing it anyway, but that probably only works due to being naturally that way inclined, and having a relaxed, face to face group. That and they tend to mess around enough at the start of the session that i can get a good half hour of emergency prep in there if need be :P

But yeah, I don't really have anything helpful to put in there, except that there's nothing wrong with calling off a session because you aren't prepared for it. It happens, and any player that can't accept that isn't one you really want to be DMing for.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 21, 2016, 07:37:24 am

There's plenty of ways around having no Rogue.

We'll take Pathfinder rules as an example. First, any skill that a Rogue can do, another class can do, likely even better than a Rogue. A spellcaster with Invisibility is going to own any situation that requires a Stealth check. A high charisma player will likely invest into social skills. And everyone takes Perception, without fail.

There's really only one skill that is lacking, and that's Disable Device. A Rogue gains Trapfinding, which enables them to use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. Note that this is disarm, not detect, the trap. Any character that meets the trap Perception DC roll can see the magic trap before it's set off.

There's plenty of alternative ways to avoid, bypass or disable a magical trap without a Rogue. Have your Bard cast Dispel Magic at it. Have your Druid cast Summon Nature's Ally and get an elemental to set it off. Have your Wizard simply teleport you to the other side. Parties don't need a Rogue to survive, and a good DM won't expect any party to possess a theoretically ideal mix of classes. Case in point, my current group consists of a Kineticist, two Magus, a Samurai and a Druid. I have no issue with this mix, and everyone's having a great time playing the class they want to play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 08:02:27 am

Quote from: Jimmy on May 21, 2016, 07:37:24 am

There's really only one skill that is lacking, and that's Disable Device. A Rogue gains Trapfinding, which enables them to use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. Note that this is disarm, not detect, the trap. Any character that meets the trap Perception DC roll can see the magic trap before it's set off.

Well no. Rogues get a bonus to Disable device AND Perception in Pathfinder. Which is better in Pathfinder then it was in 3.5 (where they outright state that you CANNOT see them if the DC gets large enough. I think it was DC 20 before only rogues could spot a trap).

These traps which could get pretty elaborate and petty (falling down a pit trap with tons of sword traps along the way down... ending with a pool of acid).

The only class in the Cores that can reasonably spot traps LIKE a rogue is the Druid.

Though Rogues that attempt to spot traps outshine everyone quite brightly as they are the only ones with auto-trap search.

"and a good DM won't expect any party to possess a theoretically ideal mix of classes"

A good DM usually balances a game to the current party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 08:56:05 am

No Neo, a good DM expects the players to solve the situation with intelligence, custom tailoring makes the game worse, because the party never has to think outside the box.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 08:57:53 am

I'm not sure how it's possible to solve something that you're literally not allowed to see with intelligence. There's a difference between "you need to get creative" vs "this is impossible for you because the character you thought would be fun to play is inappropriate for this". Challenges that actually need to be thought though are all well and good, but just throwing impossible shit at the party isn't fun for anyone. A good GM can tell the difference, and as Neonivek says, balance the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 08:58:35 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 08:56:05 am

No Neo, a good DM expects the players to solve the situation with intelligence, custom tailoring makes the game worse, because the party never has to think outside the box.

I think you took my statement several times further then it was intended.

I only meant a good DM makes their game according to their players (and their own desires to admit).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:03:58 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 08:57:53 am

I'm not sure how it's possible to solve something that you're literally not allowed to see with intelligence. There's a difference between "you need to get creative" vs "this is impossible for you because the character you thought would be fun to play is inappropriate for this". Challenges that actually need to be thought though are all well and good, but just throwing impossible shit at the party isn't fun for anyone. A good GM can tell the difference, and as Neonivek says, balance the game.

There is no such thing as impossible, if it was created by intelligence it can be solved by intelligence (or a ridiculous display of luck or brute force), keep in mind that while 3rd ed is my preferred system, I also run games such as RIFTS, this gives me a very different viewpoint on problem solving than a pure D&D background would.

Also, as DM I say how spot works, the book can take a hike if the rules are stupid.

Neo: generally that is correct, but if there aren't things the party wasn't prepared for, they get lazy and sloppy, then bad things happen and the game dies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 09:06:16 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:03:58 am

There is no such thing as impossible, if it was created by intelligence it can be solved by intelligence (or a ridiculous display of luck or brute force)

This is... So ludicrous. I'm having a hard time addressing it. Like. Okay, to go with an old D&D standby, how about a character with no ranged capability vs a flying archer that's not willing to talk? How is he suppose to solve that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:08:32 am

Got some rocks around?  How about some cover?  Intelligence, rules only matter when they take intelligence into account, if you're just playing by the numbers then you aren't playing.  Running from an engagement you aren't ready for is a valid strategy, you don't have to fight everything you come across.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 09:09:53 am

Both of those are pretty much gm fiat if they work. So, please, go on. Tell me how the player can solve it without the gm balancing the encounter around them. Lets see the fighter run, sure, if the archer can't just kill him as he runs. Or if he doesn't need to win the fight for some important reason. Both of these mean the gms made the encounter so that running away ins't a total loss though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:14:20 am

How is the player deciding to avoid engaging an opponent they can't directly fight DM fiat?  How is using cover and improvised weapons fiat?  What are you on about?

I am saying that if a situation exists then a good DM makes it possible to solve through ingenuity, what exactly are you arguing for?  Because it sounds like you just aren't applying enough problem solving and logic from my perspective.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 09:15:48 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:14:20 am

I am saying that if a situation exists then a good DM makes it possible to solve through ingenuity

I'm saying this is the opposite of what you said before, or possibly that you just didn't understand before? You're saying that a GM makes a encounter solvable. But before you said

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 08:56:05 am

custom tailoring makes the game worse

These are pretty contradictory.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:20:02 am

It is not the opposite, you are not reading it in the context that it is intended.  From my perspective custom tailoring to the party mean excluding things such as deathtraps, or only including those that the current party can deal with, i.e. playing to the 'roll'.  Making the situation solvable by application of intelligence is not 'custom tailoring' any more than basic worldbuilding is.  Using environmental variables to your advantage is simple logic, and should be encouraged at every single opportunity in order to increase player involvement, and is therefore playing to 'role'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 21, 2016, 09:32:35 am

(oop, several replies have been posted.  I'm not addressing anyone directly with this)
Is having a single level of rogue within the entire party really so much to ask?  Or investing in a hireling?

Our party was kinda twisted in that we (the players) all thought like cunning rogues, regardless of INT.  And our hulking sea-ogre barbarian talked like a bard, which was particularly ironic when he was the party face for a sorcerer and favored soul (both CHA classes).  We put our points in things we actually had to roll.  We mostly took care of traps with Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, and sometimes Break Enchantment when things went wrong.  But I don't think we were playing that right. 

A rogue should be more than sneak attack, it's a clever problem solver class.  Often a pseudo-spellcaster via UMD.  But that just wasn't optimal to play, because we were all doing that anyway.  (Also most of our enemies were undead, and we didn't have truedeath enhancement crystals until near the end.  In 3.5e that meant no sneak attack damage).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 09:43:51 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:20:02 am

only including those that the current party can deal with

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:20:02 am

Making the situation solvable by application of intelligence

These are one and the same generally. Well, not everything solvable by intelligence is is something a party can deal with, I'd say probably the hardest part of gming for me is trying to figure out if the players are going to be able to read my intentions and such with puzzles, but... Yeah. Generally that's the same thing.

Like honestly you could say "Only including things that the current party can deal with purely with their mechanical abilities with no thought" and then what you're talking about would make sense, but at the same time no one ever claimed that was how good gms act anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 21, 2016, 09:50:41 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 21, 2016, 09:32:35 am

We mostly took care of traps with Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, and sometimes Break Enchantment when things went wrong.  But I don't think we were playing that right.

Technically Detect Magic doesn't break stealth so you still need to defeat the trap. That is really the only issue except well "Dispel magic only shuts down a magic trap for 1d4 turns if successful")

That is really it as far as "not doing it right". Unless we are talking about 3.5 in which case...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 21, 2016, 09:52:35 am

Sorry yeah, we were playing 3.5e.
Though I don't know if it's any different, really.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 10:32:27 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 09:43:51 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:20:02 am

only including those that the current party can deal with

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 09:20:02 am

Making the situation solvable by application of intelligence

These are one and the same generally. Well, not everything solvable by intelligence is is something a party can deal with, I'd say probably the hardest part of gming for me is trying to figure out if the players are going to be able to read my intentions and such with puzzles, but... Yeah. Generally that's the same thing.

Like honestly you could say "Only including things that the current party can deal with purely with their mechanical abilities with no thought" and then what you're talking about would make sense, but at the same time no one ever claimed that was how good gms act anyway.

Last time I'm commenting on this.

Your second statement is EXACTLY what I am saying.

Your first is straight up incorrect, from a mechanical standpoint there is no comparison whatsoever, one is solvable via thought and use of the tools available (application of intelligence), and the other is all about numbers (current party) and thus is flat-out bad practice for a DM.

It appears that I miscommunicated this point however, so one last time:  If you are creating challenges based only on numeric and game rules, instead of based on intelligence and interactivity, you are engaging in bad GM practices.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 21, 2016, 11:18:39 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 10:32:27 am

It appears that I miscommunicated this point however, so one last time:  If you are creating challenges based only on numeric and game rules, instead of based on intelligence and interactivity, you are engaging in bad GM practices.

This is a fair enough thing to say (I mean, I wouldn't go as far to say as it's strictly a bad thing, but yeah I get what you mean).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2016, 11:30:11 am

It isn't 'strictly' a bad thing, sometimes you just want a simple thing that can be rolled away.  However using such challenges exclusively (or even regularly) is very bad practice because it is lazy design, and doesn't engage the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on May 21, 2016, 09:59:16 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 20, 2016, 03:21:35 pm

Thinking about why we're having more fun in WoD than DND (and even that's not entirely true, we had a *lot* of fun in 3.5e)...
When we started the DND campaign, which was essentially 1 single campaign for 3 real-life years, we were noobs.  As a child I had run a few games with my brother and a friend which I think were...  first edition?  Possibly advanced?  Honestly we were very young and we ignored most of the rules, it was practically Roll To Die without the dying.  Very free-form.

Later on me and my best friend had separately tried a few systems like GURPS and CoC, but via text.  Not voice, at least for me and I think him.  Short affairs.  Whereas our DM had played DND 3.5e before and was teaching us...  But it was his first time DMing.

My point is that the three of us (the fourth player dropped fast) were basically new to 3.5e and were trying desperately to learn the system.  And that made us focus on the rules, and optimizing.  A lot.  We didn't actually need to, it was just that we were all worried about pulling our weight and demonstrating competence.  It was...  not Ravenloft-grimdark, but a pretty harsh setting.  I think maybe we (particularly I) panicked and rushed things.

Anyway.  With this new system, we had a fresh start.  It's kinda relaxed, because we know what became tiresome in the last campaign (again, 3 years!).  I spent two sessions worth of XP on Auspex 2 so I could read auras...  So I could tell that the evil renegade gangrel who tells us to murder people is, in fact, a dangerous dude.  And my only regret was that I failed to save up the 4 session's worth for Obfuscate 4 that'll help me atone for a past sin (and also be useful, of course.  It's a level 4 discipline).  Keeping in mind that mechanically, this atonement will do nothing for my struggle with Jake's beast.  It just makes for a good story.

I can "waste" XP on that because I no longer feel like we're in a race.  We're all pretty good in combat without any specialization, and we can shore up our weak spots relatively cheaply due to the quadratic XP costs.  But infiltration is just as important, and social situations are... well, significant.

So actually I don't know whether we're just more comfortable starting fresh, or that the new system mechanically emphasizes something other than combat.  Either way, this is great.

Yeah, one of the big advantages of non-class-based systems is that you can just pick up cool new things without worrying about it slowing down your progression too much. Though it's possibly to incorporate this sort of thing in a class-based system, too, as I've seen in Talislanta, where you have something of a class in pretty much all editions, but you can spend xp to learn various skills and techniques.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on May 21, 2016, 10:31:55 pm

If not for the game actually being on the forum, i'd ask for advice related to a Pathfinder character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 22, 2016, 12:47:27 am

I don't see what would be wrong about asking for advice for a character, so long as you aren't meta-gaming.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on May 22, 2016, 01:15:30 am

I mean, related to my character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 22, 2016, 02:54:25 am

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on May 21, 2016, 10:31:55 pm

If not for the game actually being on the forum, i'd ask for advice related to a Pathfinder character.

Yep, been there. Yet I can't ask for advice on my games without giving things away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 22, 2016, 03:07:07 am

Feel free to PM me if you want input, I'm fairly familiar with Pathfinder's system and I'm happy to make suggestions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 22, 2016, 07:23:12 am

Ok I am reading an adventure path (Look, I still want to DM... >_>) and one section in particular is so perplexing to me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In that... it is a room... filled with enemies... all of which are stronger then the big bad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 22, 2016, 07:46:24 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 22, 2016, 07:23:12 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In that... it is a room... filled with enemies... all of which are stronger then the big bad.

Spoiler: Spoiler: Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They're actually planning the party for when the big bad evil guy gets initiated into their ranks. You are given the choice for whether you'd like to be the dinner or the initiation test. Only the latter will require you to be dead beforehand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on May 23, 2016, 11:43:05 pm

Finally, in this war my party is in, we found the part of it that my character joined up for: The Order of Leon. And not just any one of them, A FUCKING HIGH INQUISITOR.

For context, the Order of Leon are a group that are crusaders that kinda murder everything that isn't on their side, human or both. They ended up killing my character's family (backstory) and since then, he's hated them.

This High Inquisitor is one of the higher ranks that are up there before you start getting to the world renown enemies. They're so strong and respected, that in an entire fort where its mostly engineers, a leader with a special crossbow and the Inquisitor himself, when we took out the inquisitor, EVERYONE SURRENDERED.

To sort of set the stage, we walk up, and my buddy uses this book to murder people (its not instant, but its mortifying) if they fail a really easy save (its an artifact he found earlier that he wasn't supposed to be in control of). The two guards who are blocking our path say "why don't we just kill you so we can go about our business?", which my barbarian responds by saying "Dakur, grow!", which makes him cast enlarge person, and I proceeded to PICK UP SAID DWARF GUARD AND BEAT THE OTHER GUARD WITH HIM. I apparently beat him so badly that when I tossed him to the side after killing his buddy, he was too weak and broken to get back up and fight (when they surrendered, we forgot to heal him. Gotta do that next session). We walked inside, and a human (who's armor and crests I can't see) and a dwarf with a big ass crossbow show up and tell us to, quite literally, f*** off or we're gonna have a bad time.

Now, more context, the DM likes to bring things that deviate from the norm. One of these things is that everyone, at some point, will have a solo fight to test their skills (the people left, me, the  DM and the rape druid) are really good at playing, so we're up for the challenge. When discerning what my fight was gonna be, I showed my buddy Undertale, and he decided that my fight is going to be like a very hard boss found in the genocide run who rewards your sadism with sadism done unto you. Why? I have the tendency to use my character's ability to bite enemies (I'm a longtooth shifter after all). I also managed to beat other dwarves before by either throwing them, ripping them apart, snapping their necks or using them as bludgeoning weapons.

So when my DM says the words "turn around and leave or you're gonna have a bad time" I freaked out; this may very well be my solo fight. It wasn't, but oh good god I am so happy it wasn't. I managed, due to some interesting turns of events, managed to do so much damage that every round seemed like I was gonna end him. First I threw my javelin of lightning at him, because I saw him and attacked him because of his affiliation with the order, and I fought him single handedly by doing 50+ damage almost every round (we're level 5 in 5e). And then he got his turn and he rekt me. 49 damage with 10 taken off for resistance (rest of it was radiant because he's a paladin and has smite). I then dealt 80 damage to him (DM added a system thats like the skills in FE but they're badges you equip. You can equip I beleive your proficency -1, so we had two. My two had me deal an extra 1d6 lightning damage every swing of my weapon and on a 19-20, add the damage I took from the last hit I received and deal that back in force damage (doesn't help a barbarian that halves the three most common types of damage, but it helped here).

And then he drops me after that down to -16, which is 2 away from my con score (aka almost dead-dead). The party wizard (who was controlled by me, RP'd by the DM) then helps with dealing with the inquisitor after hte bard (DM controlled PC) healed me to 4, saying that my barbarian had his chance to prove himself, its now time to work as a team, and he magic missiles the inquisitor while the druid heals me up to 30. Due to droppiing to such a low amount with so much damage, my DM said I lost fingers. How many on one hand? 6 apparnetly, so I lost my whole hand. I proceeded to beat the shit out of him, activating rage again, and dealing 50 damage and intimidating him enough to give him disadvantage on attacks against me. He misses me with one swing and then hits with the second one, not doing as much as it should, and then he takes another magic missile and knocking him to critical condition where he drops and takes a knee due to how hurt he was, saying how tihs isn't how he dies, ripping off his badge which stopped him from critting (it apparently was designed when I kept using a die i'm pretty sure it rigged that keeps rolling crits, because when you roll a crit, you roll another d20 and if you crit that roll, you deal x5 or some big ass multiplier in damage. Otherwise, its just a normal hit).

So on my turn, I proceeded to bite him three times, which he died on the first, but my barb kept hitting him and hitting him over and over, screaming like the wildman he was. The dwarven garrison surrendered immediatley and their leader dropped his weapon as I turned the inquisitor's head to a bloody pulp.

For the next ten minutes of chat between the rape druid and the leader, who surrenders and defects to our side after seeing us decimate a High Inquisitor and the party psychopath sitting on the dead body with teeth marks and a pulped head, blood coming down from his fist and his stump that was once his hand and his teeth as he returns from shifted form to normal form, with his rage just leaves his body, but the adrenaline paralyzes him, looking more like a murderer who just got a buzzkill from his slaughter.

Pretty much had this in my head as this scene played out:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAs8weim90M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAs8weim90M)

By the way, that was ten minutes of REAL talk, not ten minutes passing in game, so I had to force myself to not say a word and just breathe heavily as things went on. My guy gets back up after the druid casts greater restoration (he has a magic item that lets him cast it once per day) to return my hand, which, in character, he didn't notice was gone until then.

After some talk, we paid the siege engineers to defect to our side, who agree on the condition that they will if their families are for sure seen as safe. We also just discovered that all of the dwarves we released during this war to spread word of our coming never made it across the bridge because of this golem we dealt with being there, killing EVERYONE. We ended up splitting up the party to make sure the families were taken out of the towns we were going to before we invaded.

This was definitely the biggest moment where my barb realizes that he can't do everything alone, and he'll start to see that more often. Oh, and he's got more stuff he's wearing that's pretty much bastardized Order of Leon gear with an insignia that shows who my character is.

Overall, good session, its pretty terrifying though we're fighting bosses now with 200+hp though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 24, 2016, 05:14:07 am

do I wanna know why he's called the rape Druid

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 24, 2016, 05:54:38 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 24, 2016, 05:14:07 am

do I wanna know why he's called the rape Druid

Somehow I doubt it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 24, 2016, 05:55:34 am

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on May 24, 2016, 05:54:38 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 24, 2016, 05:14:07 am

do I wanna know why he's called the rape Druid

Somehow I doubt it.

Pretty much. There are only two real answers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 24, 2016, 06:28:35 am

Druids do it like animals.
Rogues do it from behind.
Clerics do it on their knees.
Sorcerers do it spontaneously.
Rangers do it with their pets.
Monks do it with their fists.
Paladins vow never to do it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 24, 2016, 06:29:23 am

Dude.  Ew.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 24, 2016, 06:31:57 am

[becomes rogue-sorcerer-cleric]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on May 24, 2016, 08:14:37 am

Quote from: Jimmy on May 24, 2016, 06:28:35 am

Druids do it like animals.
Rogues do it from behind.
Clerics do it on their knees.
Sorcerers do it spontaneously.
Rangers do it with their pets.
Monks do it with their fists.
Paladins vow never to do it.

I love this

Quote from: Neonivek on May 24, 2016, 05:55:34 am

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on May 24, 2016, 05:54:38 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 24, 2016, 05:14:07 am

do I wanna know why he's called the rape Druid

Somehow I doubt it.

Pretty much. There are only two real answers.

I said this in an earlier post, but I'll give you the deeds he's done since he last post as well. He has the tendency to distract enemies by making out with them or groping them (or both). One time a guy got charmed and he just kept going at it until the group fighter kills the guy to "put him out of his misery" (because no one wants to be forced to do stuff like that via charm spell and then be forced to remember that you just unwillingly got raped by a rock man). He also has publicly masturbated, caressed a dwarf who was crying because he had his arm torn off (thanks to my barbarian) while whispering into his ear "shhhhh... It's gonna be ok" (and the player made it sound like a psychopath said it), and tearing off his clothes and rolling around in snow in the middle of a captured fort while the prisoners were watching (he thought he was on fire).

Needless to say, he definitely fits the idea of a Druid who has no social knowledge and has lived in a cave for most of his life.

When you have the rape-Druid and the brutal and bloody barbarian, you get some banter between them that makes the DM say they're like an old couple. But with the two of them, they surprisingly manage to deal with most encounters without the DM character's help. We took out an entire fort with stealth by me acting like a bumbling idiot and killing them silently in a smoke cloud from an eversmoking bottle while the Druid kept the leader and the Mage distracted

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 24, 2016, 01:16:02 pm

c
can I marry the Druid

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 24, 2016, 01:18:07 pm

No, he is both fictional and a rapist.
Not really marriage material.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 24, 2016, 01:23:05 pm

I agree with GiglameshDespair.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 24, 2016, 01:42:58 pm

if I marry him he has to stop being a rapist

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 24, 2016, 01:52:39 pm

I don't think you understand how marriage works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 24, 2016, 02:30:22 pm

maybe not

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 25, 2016, 05:34:13 am

Yeah seriously, I ask as both a married man and a DM, don't even go there. Respect all women. And if you're lucky enough to find the perfect one, respect her above all else. Otherwise you're a filthy orc and I will gladly murderhobo you for CR appropriate loot.

That being said, one of my players (elf Cavalier) wants to recruit a female NPC cohort as per the Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/squire) feat. I figured out a way to introduce the NPC to the party, since they're on their way into town.

Adventure Hook: "An angry man pulls a crying woman with a black eye down the street by her hair." Boom, instant cohort. Unless they ignore the encounter, in which case, boom, instant alignment shift.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 25, 2016, 05:47:35 am

im not sure who that is was directed at, seeing as i was talking about marrying the male Druid and the fact that i already know to respect women
_{whats wrong with orcs you jerk}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 25, 2016, 06:05:00 am

Just a statement in general as a warning to all who might show a bigoted, narrow-minded attitude. Nobody in specific being targeted, but better not to let anything like that lead to further discussion, especially when we can all agree it's really those filthy, good-for-nothing greenskins that are the real problem with society. They pillage our villages, they take our jobs, they bomb our buildings! Let's build a wall to keep them out and make D&D great again!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 25, 2016, 06:21:06 am

ah, alright

[looks around at my entourage of hunky orcs] [hugs them protectively] fantasy racism is bad, scum

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 25, 2016, 06:27:29 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 25, 2016, 06:21:06 am

ah, alright

[looks around at my entourage of hunky orcs] [hugs them protectively] fantasy racism is bad, scum

Apperantly 5e agrees with you and made Tieflings completely unaffected by their devil/demon heritage thus they are just humans with tails. Since heaven forbid that there be some nuance with that race.

Though 3.5 probably did the same thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 25, 2016, 06:29:50 am

I thought the Tiefling Paladin that one game had all those effects. Like, a Tiefling racial feat or something?
Maybe you can homebrew them to be more demon-y or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 25, 2016, 06:33:36 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 25, 2016, 06:27:29 am

Though 3.5 probably did the same thing.

Categorically untrue. Tieflings in 3.5 must labor under the heavy burden of their infernal +1 Level Adjustment, thus making sure they will never be accepted in polite adventuring society.

EDIT: Although, come to think of it, since when is mandating that GMs fuck with players on specific issues been terribly appreciated in D&D (see Paladin alignment requirements, sacred vows)? I guess you could have stuff like Tieflings always detecting as Evil and being treated as Evil in terms of spell effects, given that the essence of Evil literally runs through them. Even if they're Lawful Good Paladins, which would presumably make 3.5 encounters between tiefling paladins and other paladins rather funny.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 25, 2016, 07:27:56 am

It isn't really their abilities that I am referring to so much their description that says that they are actually not influenced by their demon heritage at all, people are just prejudice against them unjustly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 25, 2016, 07:46:08 am

That's really more of a worldbuilding question, then. You can add certain reasons for people to be prejudiced against tieflings in-setting for that. Like being very good conduits for demon summoning (or devil summoning, for that matter) and other fiendish rituals, or just the way they can naturally perform shitty demon pranks on anyone they like, which is ample grounds for being chased out of a village for sure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 25, 2016, 07:48:57 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 25, 2016, 07:46:08 am

That's really more of a worldbuilding question, then. You can add certain reasons for people to be prejudiced against tieflings in-setting for that. Like being very good conduits for demon summoning (or devil summoning, for that matter) and other fiendish rituals, or just the way they can naturally perform shitty demon pranks on anyone they like, which is ample grounds for being chased out of a village for sure.

It just kind of feels like a lost opportunity to have a race with natural dark impulses and inclination towards evil that they have to fight against (though not overwhelming, so a tendency towards Chaotic Neutral).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 25, 2016, 07:52:44 am

No real need to stress the point, though. People playing tieflings are mostly going to play up their edginess without needing to be specifically told to do it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on May 25, 2016, 08:07:38 am

My D&D group had a tiefling ranger who was played as a naive country bumpkin at first, complete with a ridiculous Cornish(?) accent.
It was quite amusing... apparently this player was the same guy who once brought a rasta gnome into the same group.
The DM basically disallowed the rasta gnome's return (or the return of his accent) on pain of death. :P   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 25, 2016, 09:40:35 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 25, 2016, 06:33:36 am

I guess you could have stuff like Tieflings always detecting as Evil and being treated as Evil in terms of spell effects, given that the essence of Evil literally runs through them. Even if they're Lawful Good Paladins, which would presumably make 3.5 encounters between tiefling paladins and other paladins rather funny.

I believe this actually happened with the (hilariously mary-sueish) Succubus Paladin found in, I think, Dragon Magazine.  She was lawful good, "redeemed", yet still had the Evil subtype.  Which the rules even spell out, rather oddly:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#evilSubtype

Basically an evil outside can have whatever alignment they want, but spells will always effect them as if they've evil.  And all their attacks are evil-aligned for DR.  So this succubus was a perfectly LG paladin, she just showed up on Detect Evil and was vulnerable to various smitey-spells.  Couldn't have used Luminous Armor or other alignment-locked magics either.

I sorta see what they were going for, but it's mostly just odd to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 25, 2016, 09:47:19 am

I remember reading that one too. Also, another quirk of the wording of Detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) in 3.5e is that it always detects undead as evil regardless of alignment. Theoretically a good aligned undead creature will detect as evil to a paladin. There's very few without obscure templates, but Necropolitan is a fan favourite for PCs going for undead immunities, and the good old ghost from the original monster manual can be any alignment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: ShinQuickMan on May 25, 2016, 09:59:15 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 25, 2016, 07:48:57 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 25, 2016, 07:46:08 am

That's really more of a worldbuilding question, then. You can add certain reasons for people to be prejudiced against tieflings in-setting for that. Like being very good conduits for demon summoning (or devil summoning, for that matter) and other fiendish rituals, or just the way they can naturally perform shitty demon pranks on anyone they like, which is ample grounds for being chased out of a village for sure.

It just kind of feels like a lost opportunity to have a race with natural dark impulses and inclination towards evil that they have to fight against (though not overwhelming, so a tendency towards Chaotic Neutral).

Half-Orcs have that "evil impulse" thing going for them in 5E.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 25, 2016, 09:59:46 am

Ehh Half-orcs have Super Puberty :P

Tieflings, could've had, dark impulses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on May 25, 2016, 01:15:45 pm

It's funny because Tieflings have never been so obviously nonhuman and fiendish as now yet they're at theory least expected to be treated as such. As if nobody is supposed to look at this visually identical to the stereotypical demon person and still not go "hey I don't feel very comfortable with that thing around, I don't think we should trust it and also have you noticed how Old Grumpleton's cows got stopped giving milk just after it got here?" whenever a Tiefling rolls into town.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 25, 2016, 10:18:28 pm

Agh, so basically the big bad Gangrel decided not to literally *eat my soul* for now, contingent on us working for him and his mysterious diablerizing brood.

The Prince and Camarilla have been blood hunting him for about a week and are having no luck.  He leaves messages in our haven while we're asleep.  My sire is old and wise, but not especially powerful.  More a teacher.  And our Ventrue is completely nuts, with 2 violent psychotic personalities plus a cowardly sociopath.  Her sire committed suicide, her step-sire communicates exclusively by carrier pigeon.

And frankly our Gangrel is pretty monstrous herself at this point, and is mostly onboard with her sire.  Totally fair, just something for my character to consider.  Fortunately Juan doesn't give us any assignments right off.

Oh, the next night we get... this message.

Quote

Yes. We Are For You Now. Yes? You Help Us Now. We Like You. We Help You Later. Yes? We Need Item From The God Monsters. They Stole It. It Was Ours And They Killed Us. We Want It Back. Cup Of Judas They Call It. To Us It Is Chalise Of Ages. Gives Us It. Jaun Vouched For You. DO NOT DISSAPOINT OR IGNORE. -TheOneInTheWell

We're supposed to steal Judas's cup.  From the Lancea Sanctum.  fuckin hell
But okay, this is kinda funny.  My character is Jewish, and this is basically the Vampire Catholics faction.  So, he figures it's worth investigating at least...

Turns out the Lancea Sanctum in this city meet in the sewers.  Mekhets... are professional, somewhat uptight and graceful, Egyptian-themed infiltrators.  And here Jake is literally wading in sewage.  To visit a Catholic mass.  He regrets everything and promises to waste some vitae to digest an *expensive* meal later.  Finally we reach the chapel, which is actually pretty nice, and pass through a mystic cleansing waterfall.

That was the cliffhanger of last session.  This session starts, and our GM has... lost the sermon he wrote.  Thinking quickly, I claim my character faded into the shadows and used Touch of Shadow on the clergyman's sermon.  This is pretty silly, but the GM just woke up and is rather addled...  I make some rolls and he allows it.

Here's the crazy thing:  It *never* should have worked.  This congregation of Nosferatu *mostly* have auspex, a skill that gives them a chance of seeing through my invisibility.  Fortunately the other characters are making a bit of a scene.  Kayla is doing some weird Gangrel meditation, and Amanda is currently Lilith - Mistress of the Night, supposedly from several thousand years before this "Christ".  So, Jake gets away with it.

During the ceremony we see a cup which is pretty definitely the one we're after (they do a special blood ritual with it).  Cool, we just need to sneak in sometime and steal it right?  Well, NO.  Nosferatu can be:
Be invisible like I do
See invisible like I do
Boost their melee power to absurd degrees which I can't do

And this chapel is the core of one of the city's 3 main factions.  Security is going to be tight...  For example, when we left (they have a non-sewage exit, the sewage path is a penance thing) the hatch disappeared behind us.  And I *have* auspex, it was just massively better hidden than my neonate senses could detect.

And yet we're expected to steal this thing.  At least the nosferatu will probably kill me (or lock me in endless, feverish torpor by staking and burying).  Juan (and his buddies) are threatening to consume and absorb my immortal soul.

It's kinda a tough situation...  I'm tumbling some ideas (glad I'm sober atm) but we have a little time I think.  Maybe.
I think I have until next session, basically.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on May 25, 2016, 10:22:36 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 22, 2016, 03:07:07 am

Feel free to PM me if you want input, I'm fairly familiar with Pathfinder's system and I'm happy to make suggestions.

Sent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2016, 10:33:14 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 25, 2016, 10:18:28 pm

big story that could have been prevented with adequate tanks and guns

The fundamental problem here is the basic lack of OP player characters (or more accurately, PCs who could hypothetically gain access to nearly unlimited firepower with just a bit of imagination).  /jk

Really tho', some prep work couldn't hurt here, you've already cased the joint and you know that you don't have the gear to tackle the job, so get creative, most explosives won't kill a vamp, but it hurts and it's still disorienting as hell to have ringing ears and a concussion, even if it only lasts for a few seconds.

Grenades, plastique, C4, TNT, whatever, it's all available in stupendous quantities in the modern world.  With some basic high-school chemistry you can rig up all kinds of improvised tools to help with a situation like this.  Don't feel beholden to your 'superhuman' abilities, there's a reason that vamps only influence the world from the shadows, humans vastly outnumber them and are creative as hell.

Intelligent thought and creative problem solving are the bread and butter of tabletop gamers, I've had a small team of players obliterate an entire undead army in RIFTS (this is stupendously harder in RIFTS than in D&D, undead are immune to almost all conventional weapons), and snipe the nearly immortal necromancer leading it in the head from three miles away (with a truly massive -15 to hit, but nat 20 is nat 20.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on May 25, 2016, 11:17:00 pm

That is some good advice, and I am considering equipment-based solutions...  My character has 3 dots of resources, IE "able to afford" a pretty snazzy range of spy tech.  And our ventrue has some black market contacts-

Oh nevermind.  I had to afk for 50 minutes, and came back to their characters buying bread for a pigeon.
The gangrel tried to do a controlled frenzy to bust a wall (not sure why they attacked the clerk this time lol, they're seriously insane (er, sure, I mean their characters)).  She failed to retain control.  She ran down our (handcuffed, the police are dead) ventrue, transforming into a wolf.

Our malky Ventrue, currently as "Franky" the 30's gangster, looked the raging beast in the eye and told it to "CHILL."  It was a decent roll...  But Kayla's beast is kiiiinda out of control at this point.  By chance or lingering humanity she managed to swing wide, then swing again - supernaturally sharp claw-blades cleanly removing Franky's arm.  Handcuffs removed!

Malky player: "Maybe I'll use... Dementation!" 
Gangrel player: "I have no idea what that does"
Me: "It'll make you both crazy... Oh wait :P"
Gangrel player: "I have no idea what you mean~"
Me: "I have no idea how you got the police involved buying bread!"
GM: "YOU HAD THREE RESOURCE DOTS!  THIS WASN'T NECESSARY!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on May 27, 2016, 01:49:14 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 25, 2016, 06:27:29 am

Apperantly 5e agrees with you and made Tieflings completely unaffected by their devil/demon heritage thus they are just humans with tails. Since heaven forbid that there be some nuance with that race.
Though 3.5 probably did the same thing.

[rant]I've never liked Tieflings as they are, especially in 4e and 5e. They just don't make a whole lot of sense: I don't really buy your average person being okay with doing business with someone with giant horns and tails. At the same time, making them all having an actual evil tendency runs into the same problem of making all orcs naturally evil, but this is getting into alignment discussion, so I'll stop.

You know what was awesome?
Sigil.
[copyandpastedrantfromsomeoneelse (http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/2014/08/22/in-which-i-rant-about-tieflings-for-no-good-reason/)]
Back in the wild world of AD&D 2nd Edition we had a thing called Planescape and it was good. Well, it wasn’t good. But it was better than most. And Planescape introduced a nice place called Sigil that was full of kind people who liked to stab — each other, other people, you know, in general, stab. Stabbing was a thing in Sigil. In Sigil were these people called Tieflings. Since Sigil was the center of all the Planes all based on the 9 D&D alignments it made sense that the occasional Demon or Devil or Fiend would wander on through, leave a couple of babies with the local whores and barmaids, and wander on their way. Could the demons help it if they were good looking? No, probably not.
Tieflings were the closest thing that Sigil had to a native population. Each one was weird in their own way. Grandpa was a Cambian and Mom was some sort of nasty half-fiend so you’re just this freak with giant bulging red eyeballs and vestigial wings that go fwip fwip fwip and your poker buddy has 6 foot tall curving horns and hooves. But no one cared because over infinite time in Sigil everyone was a damned Tiefling. One assumed any Tiefling sorcerer who fell through a Door and ended up in someone’s campaign was only adventuring to get back to their goddamn poker game where they had a full flush high they swear and they leaned back in their chair and now here they are fighting goddamn orcs what the hell is this garbage. Old Tieflings were guys who had fireballs in one hand and cigarettes in the other and weren’t interested in that sword in that magical horde because they could do a thing. They were cool guys.
Tieflings were like this in 3rd edition and survived that way through the patch but then were watered down into non-existence. Instead of an interesting background of some demon passing through town now it is a Mysterious Ancestor who Tainted a Bloodline and now all Tieflings are Generically the Same. They were gutted of all their interestingness into bland sameness with a Spooky and Mysterious Past that was Spooky and Mysterious. And they are all weird in the exact same way and have absolutely no knowledge about plains or Evil Grandpa George the Demon or extra-planar games of chance.
[/copyandpastedrantfromsomeoneelse]

I like my fantasy weird as shit. I like vile encounters, unspeakable rituals, and sick and twisted foes played against lighthearted mundanity. In the D&D game I DM here, the players recently had to deal with a camp of cultists. One of them got into a theological argument with a kobold, who challenged the PC to 'take the worm', which was like a duel of faith. They both would have injested a dragon larva, which would lay eggs in the stomach of PC and the kobold, which would quickly grow into juvenile kobolds who would chestburst their way out.
The point of the story is weird stuff is engaging. 1d6 orcs isn't, but 1d4 orcs and 1d2 orc hair witches grabbed your attention, hasn't it? Tieflings are too normal now; "I'm from an ancient bloodline who sold their souls to demons", boring, "One of my ancestors boned a devil", heard it already, "I have to live in penance to my infernal bloodline", yawn.
I think that the problem is exacerbated by their look; there's no real room for customization. If every tiefling looks and plays the same, there's no way to make your tiefling stand out, except by going overboard.

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 25, 2016, 06:29:50 am

I thought the Tiefling Paladin that one game had all those effects. Like, a Tiefling racial feat or something?
Maybe you can homebrew them to be more demon-y or something.

I think you're talking about one of my characters. Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (which I cannot send you a PDF of, so don't PM me and ask me for it, if you understand what I'm saying, wink wink) introduced variants for Tiefling racial traits, like no shadow/reflection, cloven hooves, or the smell of brimstone, which is badass, because it made the idea of a tiefling fresh again. You didn't have to have giant horns, you could just be a normal person who's just a little off. I used it to create a giant buff Tiefling who was mostly normal, but just tweaked a little. It was the first time I'd ever actually enjoyed playing a Tiefling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on May 27, 2016, 02:36:41 pm

Yeah. It's like, if you're playing something that's half-demon or whatever, you shouldn't just get some generic bits of goat glued to you. If you go for something weird, if you're not just playing a human with X training, it seems like the point is to be something else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 27, 2016, 03:42:13 pm

Quote

They just don't make a whole lot of sense: I don't really buy your average person being okay with doing business with someone with giant horns and tails.

Typically they aren't, but they have been around long enough that they are just an accepted part of life rather then an ill omen.

Also I have to hand it to one book I read... which actually, to my utter surprise, was heaven (or rather Angels/Divas) actually doing something to fix the major plot. I mean sure they failed (mostly because it couldn't be so easily resolved... and even then they were winning twice, one of those which could have succeeded), but it is so rare that they will raise a finger to help.

It is why I am driven mad by Solars which there are literally 24 of them so you would think they would be extremely powerful right? But while ok they ARE powerful... They aren't all that strong in the grand scheme of things AND are more then happy to sit on their butts and not do anything.

and Solars are as high up as they go "supposedly" and are equal to Balors who are two rungs down from their peak.

MAYBE if there "could only be 24 at anytime" and not "only 24"... If Evil wasn't so self-defeating then good wouldn't stand a chance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on May 27, 2016, 04:54:16 pm

Where did you see "only 24"? The source I found had said

Quote from: Dragon #64 page 11

There are at least 24 solars.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 27, 2016, 05:12:40 pm

Ok to admit the EXACT words the monster manual gives is that it is known that there are only 24 or specifically "It is said that only 24 solars exist". So there COULD be more.

But if there are more then 24 then they are secret Solars no one knows about, sort of a DM fiat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2016, 10:10:05 pm

Forgot how long it took to retrain a character. Goodbye, matchstick. Hello Druid. You'll be here for quite a while in in-game time. At least the Paladin/Ranger didn't attend this session. Always went first, and always ended up solo-ing most encounters before anyone else gets to act because everything is Evil and his Favoured Enemy. Also because he paces his shots in a way I don't feel he should be allowed to. After every attack roll, he rolls damage, asks if the damage dealt would kill the enemy, and if so he would switch targets for the next attack roll. I don't feel that that makes sense.

Anyways. Enter cave. Half-Fiend Minotaurs. Then more of them. Then weird Aberration Crab-Spider-Spellcaster things. Nearly ended us because we all stood in a line as they cast lightning bolts on us.

Get to last room. An Elvish looking woman asks us to kill the master of the dungeon so that she doesn't have to keep working for Demons. Says she'll reward us with a single Wish to be shared amongst the whole party if we agree. So we did. And as she is casting the Wish, our Oracle blurts out that he wished that the lady would be Chaotic Good. She was pissed, as it turns out she was a Demon in disguise. And failed her save against the Wish.

Kek.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 28, 2016, 10:18:38 pm

Oh wow, heh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on May 29, 2016, 01:22:51 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2016, 10:10:05 pm

Forgot how long it took to retrain a character. Goodbye, matchstick. Hello Druid. You'll be here for quite a while in in-game time. At least the Paladin/Ranger didn't attend this session. Always went first, and always ended up solo-ing most encounters before anyone else gets to act because everything is Evil and his Favoured Enemy. Also because he paces his shots in a way I don't feel he should be allowed to. After every attack roll, he rolls damage, asks if the damage dealt would kill the enemy, and if so he would switch targets for the next attack roll. I don't feel that that makes sense.

Anyways. Enter cave. Half-Fiend Minotaurs. Then more of them. Then weird Aberration Crab-Spider-Spellcaster things. Nearly ended us because we all stood in a line as they cast lightning bolts on us.

Get to last room. An Elvish looking woman asks us to kill the master of the dungeon so that she doesn't have to keep working for Demons. Says she'll reward us with a single Wish to be shared amongst the whole party if we agree. So we did. And as she is casting the Wish, our Oracle blurts out that he wished that the lady would be Chaotic Good. She was pissed, as it turns out she was a Demon in disguise. And failed her save against the Wish.

Kek.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/IO1QU8E.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 29, 2016, 02:23:45 am

It's legal to change targets as part of a full attack. It's also legal to declare your full attack, strike down an enemy, 5 ft. step and then finish your attacks against additional targets. You don't have to declare every attack against the same target before the damage of your attacks are rolled. Heck, if you're desperate, you can even end your full attack by throwing your weapon at an enemy as a ranged attack instead. I've done that with disposable weapons before, when I've made a full attack and found that I'm out of enemies in range.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2016, 02:31:08 am

Yea, but it's not something I'm terribly fond of. Especially when the player in question basically one-shots every enemy in the room.

A Mythic Gestalt Paladin/Ranger with Smites, Favoured Enemy, and a +3 Holy Bane Evil Outsider Adaptive Longbow is basically capable of completing this adventure path solo, since every goddamned enemy is an Evil Outsider. Or at least, 7 out of every 10 enemies are Demons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 29, 2016, 05:35:12 am

Then the DM's job is to throw encounters at the party that can't be solved by a niche character build. Suddenly, you're fighting Aberrations! That like to use Wind Wall!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2016, 05:27:12 pm

The DM has been adding extra enemies to encounters, but at the moment, the Ranger gets five attacks a round, with two of those attacks firing two arrows at once thanks to Manyshot and Mythic Manyshot. He almost always ends five enemies on his turn.

Plus Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy) is a spell that exists. No such thing as a creature safe from a Ranger.

Plus he took feats to ignore cover and wind conditions, so things like Wind Wall and anything other than Total Cover or Total Concealment are meaningless.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2016, 05:47:21 pm

Quote

and Mythic Manyshot

AHH that explains things.

The Mythic rules are flat out broken and are meant to be balanced via mythic type enemies (with normal enemies being chumps).

Well that and Smite eliminates pretty much all the advantages demons have pretty much automatically.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2016, 05:54:50 pm

Mythic flat-out breaks action economy once you get an extra Standard action each round for only one use of Mythic Power.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2016, 05:56:35 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 29, 2016, 05:54:50 pm

Mythic flat-out breaks action economy once you get an extra Standard action each round for only one use of Mythic Power.

Honestly the only thing I don't like about running mythic is just the amount of book keeping and memorization it requires.

Mythic enemies are HUGE bundles of abilities, powers, and feats that you have to know all of like the back of your hand to effectively use.

It basically adds an entire new layer of complications to an already complicated game.

That and the mythic enemy list is REALLY scant and difficult to find more of. (makes it essentially only half-finished)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 30, 2016, 05:50:39 am

How's he getting line of sight? A good old Obscuring Mist will mean he can't target any creature more than five feet away. Solid Fog, Acid Fog and the like straight out negate ranged attacks too, even if they have Weathered Warrior. Or just give the enemies Deflect Arrows, which automatically blocks the hit, no save. It even blocks all the arrows from a Manyshot, since they're all a single attack roll. If all else fails, give an encounter plenty of cannon fodder enemies to absorb attacks and get into melee range, or a big nasty with a strong Sunder attack vs. shooty-mcstabbyface's bow.

A good DM will find ways around any niche build.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 30, 2016, 05:58:20 am

If you have line of effect, it's entirely possible to deal a lot of damage through total concealment. 50% miss chance means that half your shots still hit, which if you're putting out a lot of attacks per turn is still significant.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on May 30, 2016, 05:59:40 am

So, uh, if we're talking about niche.

I had a(n addmittedly 3rd party for pathfinder) soulknife build. His AC when attacking, at level 8 (soul knife 5, warrior 3), was 34. His touch was 24 . His attack with his soul knife was +15, and his sunder attempts were +23. He was able to tell just about anyone with a weapon that they couldn't play with it any more. He was also able to AC-tank melee pretty damn well. Which he did especially well because it looked like he had no armor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 30, 2016, 06:11:17 am

Quote from: Jimmy on May 30, 2016, 05:50:39 am

A good DM will find ways around any niche build.

I dunno at a certain point it becomes excessive and silly.

"Ok  this enemy is specifically resistant to Arrows and is immune to smite... but not anyone elses abilities"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on May 30, 2016, 07:05:17 am

Not any more so than enemies specifically designed to be immune to other things. Golems being immune to almost all magic, or swarms immune to almost all weapons, for example. Let's not even mention the list of stuff immune to Sneak Attack too. There's always going to be something out there that's got a big 'no' button for your gimmick, and that's why you have other party members to fill out a range of roles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on May 30, 2016, 07:22:33 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 30, 2016, 06:11:17 am

I dunno at a certain point it becomes excessive and silly.

"Ok  this enemy is specifically resistant to Arrows and is immune to smite... but not anyone elses abilities"

They don't have to be specifically arrow resistant - just give them Immune: Piercing ('cause it's a gaseous shade, or a plant, or an ooze or something) and an alignment other than evil takes care of the smite.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 31, 2016, 01:44:03 pm

A true neutral (acts with no intelligence) plant that emits toxic gas and is surrounded by slimes. The plant and slimes have a symbiotic relationship; the slimes eat pests (people) that harm the plant, and the plant attracts more pests for the slimes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on May 31, 2016, 04:22:57 pm

Paizo is releasing Pathfinder In Space Starfinder in August 2017. (http://paizo.com/starfinder/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on May 31, 2016, 05:34:23 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on May 31, 2016, 04:22:57 pm

Paizo is releasing Pathfinder In Space Starfinder in August 2017. (http://paizo.com/starfinder/)

This will either be incredibly awesome or incredibly dumb. There is virtually no middle ground.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on May 31, 2016, 05:35:09 pm

Sure would be more awesome if it wasn't over a year away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 01, 2016, 01:51:09 am

Why not Coursefinder?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 01, 2016, 06:02:12 am

So long as I get me a multiclass enchantment wizard/monk/aether kineticist with a longsword of brilliant energy +1. Or, you know, a Jedi.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 01, 2016, 06:35:10 am

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2016, 01:51:09 am

Why not Coursefinder?

The last word in mundane academy roleplaying games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on June 01, 2016, 06:42:42 am

spelljammer 2: electric boogaloo?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 01, 2016, 07:17:18 am

Quote from: miauw62 on June 01, 2016, 06:42:42 am

spelljammer 2: electric boogaloo?

Well Spelljammer is more pirate ships in space then Sci-fi.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 02, 2016, 10:28:51 pm

So the greatest campaign I was in came to an end.

We went to the world's equivalent of Atlantis and dodged an encounter in a dive bell with sharks. We went in the ruins, which had air in it, and we ended up Meeting a herald of a God who I forgot who was once a senator of the place we are in. He showed us what the place looked like in its prime, and then a scene of the last few days of it before it sunk into the sea. We advanced towards the palace, and the herald told us the Elves (the Nazis of our world) had already arrived. We kept going on, splitting off with another party (who were all NPCs) who searched for a special blade that completed the armor we were trying to finish, and was a sort of secret piece that we had to find. We then ended up in the emperor's palace, and saw another vision, this time of the High Priestess (context: the Archaeans (the Alanteans) all worshipped the pathfinder gods, which overruled and "defeated" the old gods, which was the Norse, Celtic and Egyptian pantheons) who came to see the Emperor, but she was denied going in, and she showed the Preator who stopped her a vision we didn't see. He then attacked her, and slew her. He then muttered something about still having time and entered the palace.

We then got into a fight with a banshee, who almost insta killed "that guy", only surviving because negative energy heals him. I pretty much insta killed it by being a Kineticist.

We then entered he bathhouse, which was where we believed that the last piece of the armor, save for the blade, was held. Upon entering the bathhouse, we found he emperor's body, which looked freshly slain, and the Nazi Colonel (the obergeupenfeuher (I botched that, sorry)) and my DM drops a veil in RL revealing A REAL LIFE NAZI FLAG HE GOT (he collects WWII relics (he's Jewish btw...)). The colonel then touches the emperor's body, and he's granted the ability to wear the armor, and he puts it all on instantly, and he recites the equivalent of Latin and then uses his power to rise the city from the water.

He then demands we go down to see him, and we do (we needed to stall until the blade is found). "That guy" starts doing his thing by being immune to charm and such, so when he orders us to kneel, everyone is stuck doing it, and then he does a charm effect to force us to listen, and it effects everyone but him. The colonel starts to give a speech and "that guy", given freedom to speak freely, interrupts him at every possible turn, in front Of an entire company of Nazi soldiers. He forced them to let him deal with us, so they stand at attention. He tries to cast a touch spell, and "that guy" teleports away, apparently able to do some effects while dealing with this guy.

So what happens then is 20+ minutes in RL to pass 15 turns in game (which would have dealt with the being stuck kneeling part) for the two of them to duke it out, and the one person drops a broken ability that would have killed the Colonel instantly, but failed because he now can teleport as a reaction to dodge attacks. So nothing is done in 15 turns since "that guy" can't attack, and the colonel keeps missing him.

So once he 15 turns pass, I do my strongest blast at him, and HE FUCKING DEFLECTS IT INTO A WALL, REVEALING THE OUTSIDE. He did that 3 times, rendering all but one of my attacks almost useless (didn't know until after the encounter, so I did attacks that required a dex save). We then battled it out for a long, hard fight against A NAZI GOD.

Fortunately, as a standard adventuring party, we kill him.

Unfortunately, the armor gave him a rebirth ability that instantly revived him to full HP every time we drop him. So we were fighting this games version of a certain final boss in a South Park game.

he then used the full force of his armor and started a god war with "that guy", who was going to become a demigod himself. "That guy" (I'll call Nyth now, since that's his Character's name and this is hard to do on my phone) managed to do a charged up channel divinity (eldritch godling) that killed EVERY NAZI IN THE ROOM SAVE FOR THE LEADER AND THE COLONEL. All 400+ of them. He then collapses both walls beside us, and then the roof and the floor. Nyth responds with walls of force with our Wizard, Maximillian, helping out. We isolated ourselves from the enemy, but he then casts a spell that makes me absolutely repulsed by my own clothes and I started fighting him naked. I was a naked Goku/Ironman fighting a Nazi God. And I was winning, dealing 150+ damage every time I use my explosion infusion.

By the time the other party is able to be contacted via teleport (aka Nyth uses his at will teleport spell to go to them) and takes the sword from the party who was yet to arrive, and readies himself. The party Machinesmith, who's prone to mind controlling effects despite being an android, is controlled by the God to take the sword and go to Mikeaus (a new continent, on the other side of the world) and takes the sword from the weak and squishy occultist Nyth, and then runs for it. Nyth, pissed by this, takes the guy and drops him from a distance that the player memorized that causes them to drop in 2 rounds, which would kill him. He casts air walk, and manages to use the sloping to save himself and keep walking.

Nyth, now noticing there being a lack of a dead Gungar (The machinesmith) in front of him, he teleports him and Gungar back and dispels him, takes the sword, and teleports the NPCs to us, while I'm blowing up the place with explosions and dropped the Colonel a second time now.

The NPC swashbuckler, who's husband was killed by this Colonel a few hours ago in game world, grabs he sword, tackles the colonel off of the only balcony left standing, and screams "THIS IS FOR EDWARD!" And im pales him with it after landing on him with the secret blade through his heart.

He stops moving, and we start to dispel the wall of force after clearing things up, and he gets back up to cast a curse on everyone (only two people saved, me and Maximillion) who got brands on them that could be seen by all clerics and inquisitors of Abbadar (the patron God of the elves in this world) that had a swastika and the word "murderer" on it.

And then the place began to sink into the sea, and after I grab my clothes, I fly off naked while Nyth forgets about me (on purpose because Haldor (my character) is naked) and the seat of the empire sinks like lead into the ocean.

We then "roll credits" and say some extra tidbits about the next campaign; taking place 150 years later, and then roll the epilogues. Maximillion goes back to the new continent to find out he has a son and raises him, Nyth becomes a demigod but not before she (the character is a she) helps Haldor with some garbage, Gungar becomes a diplomat between Dwarves and Orcs (and makes peace, despite having no emotion or ability to read lies/sarcasm) and helps bring peace between them.

and Haldor? My character?

He gets the only "bad ending" because he returns home, to find his entire family is slain. He then embarks on a journey with his family's friend, a dwarf war veteran turned mercenary leader named Dain, Haldor (who has his companion in his psyche named Visilie), Nyth, and Haldor's only brother unaffected by the spell due to dying before the familicide spell, and my previous character, Varg Ragnar. They end up succeeding in returning his family, though his parents passed on, both knowing they're old and accept death.

His pagan brothers renounce their gods, now seeing what awaited them. His brothers mostly continued to be soldiers or mercenaries save for two, one who became a smith that rivalled dwarves, and the other who became a farmer. One brother died in the elven invasion of his home 13 years later, one brother was caught after committing war crimes before he died, and he was sentenced to being the leader of this world's version of the Inglorious Basterds. Two brothers, Varg included, survived the war and had families of their own, Varg finally having more to his life than revenge and war.

Haldor, however, was given a duty. He was part of an organization that protected powerful arcane artifacts, and he saw what happened when someone learned the secrets (it's arcane nukes). He used the secrets of immortality he found at this place called LAMBS and became a living force of nature, controlling fire, lightning, and air itself, guarding this arcane laboratory. He was never seen again, and anyone who came close was slain in a way that seemed to be a great Anomoly.

And thus starts the next adventure...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on June 03, 2016, 03:49:47 am

Bravo.

All D&D campaigns should have a fight against Elf Nazi Godling at some point

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: spümpkin on June 03, 2016, 05:31:49 am

Taking part in my first real D&D campaign tomorrow, for 5 hours this session. Should be good, although I haven't played much of it. There's about 5 players atm though, so it's looking good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 03, 2016, 09:37:46 am

My players have just received a quest hook to go explore the ruins of an ancient dwarven outpost called Koganusan.

That's right, motherfuckers. Welcome to Boatmurdered.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 03, 2016, 09:58:36 am

Ooh, I like looking up Dwarvish but somehow never knew Koganusân (https://soundcloud.com/simonswerwer/koganusan) was Boatmurdered!  The dang accent made it a bit tricky.

More importantly, heeheehee...  I hope they like miasma :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 10:21:22 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on June 03, 2016, 03:49:47 am

Bravo.

All D&D campaigns should have a fight against Elf Nazi Godling at some point

This guy is a legendary DM. Unforutnatley, despite killing this world's version of Red Skull, the nazis still managed to invade most of the world. If it wasn't for the Orcs joining the humans, dwarves, duregar and gnomes, the elves would have won the war. In the end, a surrender term was given, since the allies couldn't get into the elven lands and the elves were beaten back, and they were that the elves were to keep their lands, their leader, though stepping down, was to go with full pardon, and a few other things I don't remember.

Anyway, at the 150 year mark, we're changing it up from a combat heavy experience to a more detective-type game, where almost everyone in the party is some form of law enforcement. I was originally going to be part of the arcane division (I was told its sort of like F.E.A.R.) and be one of the last wizards alive (arcane magic really started to leave the world when tech started to show up. Divine magic is still strong and present, only because of the Orcs who used their magic for a very long time and taught others about it), but I decided to use the new class that was released: vigilante. It suits the campaign PERFECTLY. Apparently though, we have our own version of Superman in the massive city we're working in, but since my character has different motives for crime fighting than this character, there can be more room for another superhero.

The fact my DM allowed me to increase the amount of renown at its fullest to affect the entire population of the city (which houses 2 million people) it REALLY helps make this character feel more awesome. The social side of my vigilante is pretty much Tony Stark, as he makes most of his own gear (though he isn't as tech heavy as he uses regular shortswords that were his ancestor's (aka my ranger's) even though he has a pair of modern firearm revolvers that he uses) and is well renown for his craft. The DM let me use my vigilante ability of having 90% off on all goods costing 8000gp or less on character creation because his social side is him being the head gunsmith and co-owner of a major weapon manufacturing company (we start at level 11 so its not that broken). Since this is the descendant of a large family, and considering that his cousin is the main source of wealth, my character, Ulf Ragnar, wouldn't have the full funding as a CEO would, but has enough sway that he can get things cheaper.

His vigilante side is known as Grey Fenris (I may change the name. Having his name be translated to "Powerful Warrior Wolf" and his vigilante name be pretty much "Grey Wolf" is kinda stereotypical of a Marvel superhero name as you can get without having two matching initials. He usually fights by stalking his enemy first and then striking when they're alone, intimidating them as he attacks, and since his weapons are all merciful, he never kills his enemies. His ultimate goal is to find the man who killed his fiance and tampered with her soul to prevent any sort of resurrection on her.

As far as I know, one guy is going to be a kineticist, so this is gonna be a really interesting campaign...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on June 03, 2016, 12:48:43 pm

So there's a new 5e adventure scheduled for September.

[urlhttp://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/03/storm-kings-thunder-explained-video-transcription/]A summary of the announcement.[/url]

It's giant themed, with apparently the potential to become a giant yourself, as well as rune magic becoming an official thing.

The bit that really caught me was what's queued up after - another monster book, with both new monsters and a load of lore on some of the classics apparently, which should be cool :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 03, 2016, 01:22:51 pm

Giants, eh?
Nice.

I wonder how rune magic will work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 01:35:33 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on June 03, 2016, 12:48:43 pm

So there's a new 5e adventure scheduled for September.

[urlhttp://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/03/storm-kings-thunder-explained-video-transcription/]A summary of the announcement.[/url]

It's giant themed, with apparently the potential to become a giant yourself, as well as rune magic becoming an official thing.

The bit that really caught me was what's queued up after - another monster book, with both new monsters and a load of lore on some of the classics apparently, which should be cool :)

Runepreist confirmed.

Now I wonder when we'll get a full psion...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 03, 2016, 02:40:33 pm

Urgh. The psion UA thing they released was unbalanced like hell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 05:32:11 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on June 03, 2016, 09:37:46 am

My players have just received a quest hook to go explore the ruins of an ancient dwarven outpost called Koganusân.

That's right, motherfuckers. Welcome to Boatmurdered.

HehehehehehehahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHA*hack**cough*  Hairball.

Ohhh boy.  Tell usssss.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 03, 2016, 06:53:49 pm

In other news, last night's session marks the first PC death of the campaign!

To preface the story, I'd warned the PCs that there would be an optional area in each dungeon that would come after the main quest was complete. This area would contain higher than normal challenges, with corresponding higher levels of loot.

So they successfully slay the orc barbarian leading the local band of raiders after tracking him to his stronghold at a ruined castle. The group discovers a room with a pool of water that descends into darkness, the water covered in filth and reeking of putrescence.

At this stage three of the PCs have reached level 2, but one of them missed half the sessions and is still level 1. This level 1 character also happens to be an Undine Druid, and able to breathe underwater.

So the group decides it's a smart idea to send the lowest level party member ahead to scout this underwater passage. The Druid successfully makes their save vs. Bog Rot in the water, swims 300 ft. down the tunnel and finds an underground pocket of air. They rise up and get the description that the room is full of moisture and crumbling in ruin. I draw the map for them at this time as a subtle hint that stuff will probably happen. They decide to exit the water, move forward on their own, and promptly trigger the CR 3 falling bricks trap for 4d6 damage.

I'd planned this so that even if a person got nailed by the trap, the average damage might drop them negative but still be possible to survive. Sadly, without anyone else there, they bled out in three rounds.

Ah well, they'll remember not to split the party next time!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 03, 2016, 09:55:31 pm

They split the party, you split their skulls.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 03, 2016, 11:17:50 pm

Nope, Boatmurdered is going to be the next few months of gameplay. This is the tail end of the group's very first quest as level 1 characters. I expect Boatmurdered will get them to about level 5 total.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

I forgot that was mentioned.

It kinda reminded me that I made an entire campaign surrounding a party going to a mountainhome that was taken by undead with a very OP necromancer residing inside. It thus started a 2+ year game that went through a couple hiatuses due to things like rehab nad such, but it was all on bay12 (I can link it if you're willing to read the buttload of pages). The coolest part of this was I took the dungeon and laid it out like the real fortress it was based off of. The fort? Necrothreat.

It ended with a climatic battle against the necromancer who gained powers from a demon lord to control living shadows. He increased that power farther by using them to inhabit corpses or living things (the former more than the latter). He caused the NPC party member that was a space marine to go batshit insane, indirectly killed a party member, killed one in that combat, and set forth perhaps some of the most epic battles and combats I have ever seen. No where else does a paladin get swallowed by an undead Wurm only to cast turn undead inside its stomach, blowing the monster up from the inside, and the undead horror gets back up with most of his body severed from its head and crushing a party member.

Also, I had all party members be copied in secret by the shadow monsters that the necromancer created as his basic footmen (who were based on DF's boogeymen) and all party members who were slain on the way there were revived and fought at some point in the journey (one bieng a recurring enemy and acting as the field marshal of the shadow and undead army). So the last few battles ended up being against the necromancer's perfection of melding his necromancy with his shadow magic, where he forced the soul out of a body and used its prowess as shadow magic to bolster the body and strengthen it, and this process left an empty shell of a body with a shadow monster inside it, and were literally called Husks, and they had a lot of HP, hit like a truck, and decent defences (they also were immune to stun and prone, but took extra damage instead of getting the debuff). I tried to show them that the shadow monster inside of them didn't fully inhabit the body by having the husks show no signs of the bloodied status and didn't flinch or show any signs of pain on hits and heavy damage. Instead, I got party members destroying entire rooms to kill them.

One of the last battles was a "boss rush" where I split the party member and had them fight party members that they had some sort of significance with (except two, who fought a guy who died in the first encounter) and it lead to a vampire kid pulling a general grevious attack, a confusing maze that took longer than it should, and a guy who used his own head as a flail.

The battle with the necromancer started with party members who, though died, were coming back due to one guy wanting a second chance at his character due to him dying from a VERY bullshit reason, and the other was a rejoining character, along with the clones of the party members who were there PLUS the necromancer. This became one of the most epic fights I have ever seen. The party wizard uses his AOE to the best of his ability and not only knocks the necromancer into magma but whittled down the shadow copies of the party members enough that killing them was a breeze. Two bodies remained when defeated, and in their minds, their god/goddess gave them a chance at redemption; the avenger of Bahamut and the Vryloka Vampire of The Red Witch rose up again and fought the necormancer as he, in a shell made of living shadows, pulls himself out of the magma and forms the second part of the fight: The Shadow Giant. He got a huge boost in HP, some extra attacks and a bonus to some defences, and reach. The party fought him with all they had, and then before the second round was done, his third form started; the shadow colossus. Size huge now, attacks multiple times (3 times now), almost triple his starting HP as the regular necromancer, and his recharge power he never got to use that had the chance to knock party members prone and slide them towards the magma. The party's berserker drops his ultimate attack and crits on his first swing that did 4d12+11 damage, which meant it maximized (4e was weird like that...) and added an extra 1d12+1d8 damage. He then swings again with his daily power that lets him swing twice for 3d12+11 damage. By the end of it, he did 200+ damage, and HE DID NOT KILL THE SHADOW COLOSSUS. Instead, the necromancer put up his final form; the shadow demon form. He grew wings, had about 700hp (this is still the third round and thats total HP, adding about 200 or so hp every form), had amazing defences (nothing under 24), was a 5x5 monster at this point, and the party could physically feel that this still wasn't the peak of his power, even though his influence (which spanned so far that it now affected the place the party started in, which was over a month's travel away) seemed to leave the fortress now. The party fought hard, and the shadow demon released his final gambit; a daily power that did 4d12+12 damage to EVERYONE ELSE in the room. He burst into a hundred spears of darkness before reforming, killing the party's secondary tank instantly, bringing one person to dying status, and bringing everyone to 10%hp or less. The encounter neeed to end. Third turn ends, and then finally, before the necromancer is given a fourth turn, the party destroys his shell, and his power is completely taken from him as the power is sucked into a now active portal behind him, which showed everyone images of the abyss and the sound of chains. The necromacner darted towards the portal, across a bridge, and rapidly aged before the party, turning from a man who was in his mid 30's to a man who was on the brink of his deathbed. The party ranger, who was influenced heavily by his power, crossed the bridge first in pursuit, and brutally slew him, breaking his bones with his fists alone, and turned the old man's face into a bloody mess. He got up and laughed as he was stripped naked by chains coming out of the portal and was sucked in, swearing that he would return from the abyss now that he remembered his full past.

The magma starts to rise, flooding the room. The party dodges falling balls of fire and stone, and escape through a secret tunnel to the surface, and for the first time in weeks, see the sun setting. Laughter is heard as they finally collapse; its over.

And then began their journey back, and on the way, they met an NPC party member who fled them in fear who paid for her cowardice being crippled now. She, being a skald, requests to do the party one last favor before they leave her behind, and she tells the local bar their entire story, granting them each a title and hailing each as a hero for their deeds of ridding this necromancer plaguing the lands for the past generation

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 04, 2016, 05:06:18 am

Need to wake up in 3.5 hours ironically, but briefly...

First off, our gangrel found a solution to her humanity problem.  It involved being sucked underground into what appeared to be hell, and observing a disgusting blood ritual.

Later we went to the club to meet my character's future thrall.  It went well.  Jake was still worrying about the morality, but she did express a (hypothetical) interest in immortality.  An eternity to party and learn.  Too bad all that supernatural stuff isn't real, huh?  Well...

Our Ventrue helped out a lot, then rather hilariously mocked Jake's moral dilemma by surreptitiously seducing and converting 2 humans into thralls right there in the club.  Different characters different playstyles (though hilariously she still has all 7 starting humanity despite going on a few murder sprees.  Good rolls).

Then as Jake was walking the woman home, he heard our Gangrel getting absolutely pulverized in the alley.  Apparently she sensed an elder vampire in the back, and started a fight.  It was not going well, the elder Daeva was moving like lightning via celerity.  Kayla kept swiping in blind frenzy, but her claws kept catching thin air.  Meanwhile the Daeva was an accomplished boxer, apparently.  Behind him, his ghoul watched and applauded.

Well, coterie first.  With Kayla a couple punches away from torpor, Jake pointed his gun at the ghoul's head and demanded the elder back off.  Glowing with Majesty, the Daeva turned to shout something...  And Kayla took the opportunity to backstab him.

As the elder's body rapidly turned to powdery ash, Kayla intoned "hornet's nest" three times.  This was apparently part of the pact which would grant her "humanity"...  Hornets appeared from Kayla and swarmed over the ashes, accepting the sacrifice.  "First of three".

As Jake stood dumbfounded, Kayla grabbed the traumatized ghoul and... well... it was quick.  As she stuffed the bloodless corpse in the dumpster, that's when we remembered the woman was still with Jake.  Watching all this.  Keep in mind, at 1 humanity, Kayla is obviously dead.  She's corpse-pale, her eyes and joints move wrong, and she was perfectly casual about the body disposal. 

The woman ran.  Guess the interview has to be cut short, unfortunately...  Gotta preserve the Masquerade.  She'll understand soon.
 :(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on June 04, 2016, 06:16:47 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

-snip-

I never posted in that thread, but I watched quite a bit of it. Part of why I tried DnD on the forum, actually. Although sadly all games I've been in have died shortly after beginning.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:08:01 am

Quote from: Twinwolf on June 04, 2016, 06:16:47 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

-snip-

I never posted in that thread, but I watched quite a bit of it. Part of why I tried DnD on the forum, actually. Although sadly all games I've been in have died shortly after beginning.

My second campaign on here is going, but slowly due to how shitty my hours are. I've been getting yelled at by one player to step down as DM, but that's impossible since everything is in my head and not written down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on June 04, 2016, 10:14:46 am

you'll have to perform a brain transplantation, then.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on June 04, 2016, 10:15:26 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:08:01 am

Quote from: Twinwolf on June 04, 2016, 06:16:47 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

-snip-

I never posted in that thread, but I watched quite a bit of it. Part of why I tried DnD on the forum, actually. Although sadly all games I've been in have died shortly after beginning.

My second campaign on here is going, but slowly due to how shitty my hours are. I've been getting yelled at by one player to step down as DM, but that's impossible since everything is in my head and not written down.

Who the fuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:18:03 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 04, 2016, 10:15:26 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:08:01 am

Quote from: Twinwolf on June 04, 2016, 06:16:47 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

-snip-

I never posted in that thread, but I watched quite a bit of it. Part of why I tried DnD on the forum, actually. Although sadly all games I've been in have died shortly after beginning.

My second campaign on here is going, but slowly due to how shitty my hours are. I've been getting yelled at by one player to step down as DM, but that's impossible since everything is in my head and not written down.

Who the fuck.

I'm not able to disclose that without sending hate towards that player's way

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 04, 2016, 10:22:39 am

That does sound like a person with a very shaky understanding of the link between a DM and a game.

Well, either that or someone who thinks they'd be the perfect replacement now that you've done all that boring worldbuilding, imagining and broad-strokes mapmaking, thus creating the perfect space for their excellent ideas to be put into play.

E: Keeping that in mind, perhaps venting about something that is this easy to look up and misidentify the perpetrator of based on personal dislikes is a poor idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:31:32 am

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying there...

But if he finds it, he probably won't really complain too much. I do agree that the reason is they want to act out THEIR ideas, but that doesn't work in D&D; with the other players, someone is bound to step in and say "hey, I don't want to do that".

It's even more difficult to deal with that when you have players who are opposite ends of the spectrun

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on June 04, 2016, 10:51:51 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:18:03 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 04, 2016, 10:15:26 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:08:01 am

Quote from: Twinwolf on June 04, 2016, 06:16:47 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

-snip-

I never posted in that thread, but I watched quite a bit of it. Part of why I tried DnD on the forum, actually. Although sadly all games I've been in have died shortly after beginning.

My second campaign on here is going, but slowly due to how shitty my hours are. I've been getting yelled at by one player to step down as DM, but that's impossible since everything is in my head and not written down.

Who the fuck.

I'm not able to disclose that without sending hate towards that player's way

Kinda the point.

Oh well, I'll respect your integrity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 10:54:23 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 04, 2016, 10:15:26 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:08:01 am

Quote from: Twinwolf on June 04, 2016, 06:16:47 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

-snip-

I never posted in that thread, but I watched quite a bit of it. Part of why I tried DnD on the forum, actually. Although sadly all games I've been in have died shortly after beginning.

My second campaign on here is going, but slowly due to how shitty my hours are. I've been getting yelled at by one player to step down as DM, but that's impossible since everything is in my head and not written down.

Who the fuck.

I have the correct idea of who the fuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 04, 2016, 12:46:14 pm

Well, who the fuck should learn some basic table etiquette.  All bitching at the DM does is get games cancelled and players booted.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 12:56:46 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 10:54:23 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 04, 2016, 10:15:26 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 10:08:01 am

Quote from: Twinwolf on June 04, 2016, 06:16:47 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 03, 2016, 11:19:29 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2016, 10:02:25 pm

This Boatmurdered?

-snip-

I never posted in that thread, but I watched quite a bit of it. Part of why I tried DnD on the forum, actually. Although sadly all games I've been in have died shortly after beginning.

My second campaign on here is going, but slowly due to how shitty my hours are. I've been getting yelled at by one player to step down as DM, but that's impossible since everything is in my head and not written down.

Who the fuck.

I have the correct idea of who the fuck.

Turns out it wasn't who I thought it was. Nevermind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 01:01:36 pm

Yeah, the person has been heckling me to update every day, even though I'm busy working 12+ hours in a day. He also has a power fantasy that he wants to achieve...

Given how the campaign will play out, and who's in the party, he won't get to live out his ideal power fantasy without many bumps in the road...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 04, 2016, 01:05:26 pm

Just boot him, then.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 04, 2016, 01:08:33 pm

Rocks Fall, Annoying People Die

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 01:09:29 pm

Go for the gusto, string him along, have the story work against him and screw him over subtly?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 04, 2016, 01:11:45 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 01:09:29 pm

Go for the gusto, string him along, have the story work against him and screw him over subtly?

Pull a Kratos!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Present him with an ultimate weapon that he can only draw by siphoning off his own power... only for it to be stolen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 05:59:09 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 01:09:29 pm

Go for the gusto, string him along, have the story work against him and screw him over subtly?

If you guys paid attention, they're fghting a legendary snake that's too strong for them.

I think he's gonna have his arrogance screw him over. There's no way he's gonna deal with an altered CR10 "world boss" at level 2

The party got a random d100 roll if they found something along the way to the swamp they're going. They fumbled the roll and got the worse possible thing to come after them, which was the White Serpent, The King of the Giant Woods, Ouroboros. He's pretty much gonna one shot them if they don't book it... I felt bad about it, but it gives them context on why they need to be careful in the Giant Woods

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 06:06:46 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 05:59:09 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on June 04, 2016, 01:09:29 pm

Go for the gusto, string him along, have the story work against him and screw him over subtly?

If you guys paid attention, they're fghting a legendary snake that's too strong for them.

I think he's gonna have his arrogance screw him over. There's no way he's gonna deal with an altered CR10 "world boss" at level 2

The party got a random d100 roll if they found something along the way to the swamp they're going. They fumbled the roll and got the worse possible thing to come after them, which was the White Serpent, The King of the Giant Woods, Ouroboros. He's pretty much gonna one shot them if they don't book it... I felt bad about it, but it gives them context on why they need to be careful in the Giant Woods

I am actually watching the thread, but I'm scared about what we might face if subtle =\= giant snake.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 04, 2016, 11:15:53 pm

Aaand I already almost lost my Druid/Barbarian. Raging is worse for your health than I thought. Death by Rage loss is more common than I realized.

I got my ass kicked by a giant demon-spider-robot-thing. And due to Superstitious Rage, I could not accept allied spells; including the Oracle's Cures. I eventually fell unconscious, and still couldn't be healed because the Raging Vitality feat allows you to Rage while asleep or unconscious. I could make any save my fellow party members threw at me on a roll of 2.

The DM wanted me to attack the Oracle, as a Superstitious Barbarian would view any attempt to cast a spell on them, harmless or not, as a threat to be neutralized. He's not really wrong.

Part of this clusterfuck of a battle was because we realized as a party that normal encounters are over before they begin, due to the Wizard/Arcanist, the Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple/Magus, and the Paladin/Ranger being general atomic bombs, with any damage dealt to us being cured in between fights. So now most dungeons will just be one or two massive fights between us and literally everything else in the current level of the dungeon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on June 07, 2016, 02:43:01 am

Currently restarting work on making my Homebrew game. Based in an Archipelago, the game will contain a large amount of naval travels. To make these moments interesting, most overworld travel was connected to something such as a Random Encounters Table. But I thought to use something different, ish...

The plan is, for every X amount of distance (Hex, Miles, Etc) they player flips a card from a deck called "The Blue". On each card there is a chance of getting some options, most will be "Clear Waters" with something around 40-55% being this card type, as this will not slow down travel too much. But there remain percent will be a collection of events. First the Card will Ask where in the water you are. 3 Options being, Shoreline/Shallows/Deep. The Shoreline is any time their ship is close to land, for example if the map was Hex based, if one edge is Land, they are Shoreline. Shallows are the part between the Deep and Shoreline, usually a Hex or so out from the shore. And finally, the Deep is anywhere else that isn't land...

After that, it would explain the Event (or at top of card, meh details). These could range from "Sails on the Horizon" to "Uncharted Landmass" which has you roll on a table connected to the location. An example of Uncharted Landmass for Shoreline would be something like;
1-5 - Sandbar, nothing interesting.
6-8 - Sandbar with Flotsam (Basic Treasure Loot)
9-15 - Reef, Slows Traveltime to Coursealign
16-18 - Small Island, Roll Event (D4 - 1-3 Nothing, 4 - Castaway)
19 - Small Island, Roll Event (D4 - 1-2 Castaway, 3-4 Loot Minor)
20 - Small Island, Roll Event (D4 - 1 Castaway 2-3 Loot Minor 4 Surprise)

And so forth. Problem is, after Sails, Uncharted and Weather. I can't really think of any other Events, NOR can I think of the Table Results. Anyone got any ideas? Not asking for someone to make them all up themselves, but just help me start this wave crashing :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2016, 04:13:06 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 04, 2016, 05:59:09 pm

If you guys paid attention, they're fghting a legendary snake that's too strong for them.

I think he's gonna have his arrogance screw him over. There's no way he's gonna deal with an altered CR10 "world boss" at level 2

You just watch it eat one of the other characters. Then another one. And maybe a third. And finally that guy decides he's had enough and escapes to find a different set of associates.

EDIT: For bonus points, the rest of the campaign revolves around that guy recruiting the legion of hunters required to kill that thing at great personal expense to himself. The quest, although ultimately successful, leads him and almost everyone except a single bard PC to their deaths, who is saved only by sheer happenstance. He proceeds to commit the tale to paper and possibly found a new literary tradition in the process.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2016, 08:37:25 am

Sea monsters of a variety of types should be one.
Cabin fever/temporary madness might also be one...
Rats in the hardtack!
Oh look, a meteor OH DUCK!
Was that a mermaid? Or a kelpie?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on June 07, 2016, 11:51:46 am

Might well be worth splitting the encounter tables up into separate events if you're struggling for cards.  Would also streamline things a little. Hell, you could even split the shore/shallows/deep up, and dispose of the clear sailing cards entirely - just have them only take effect in the relevant area. Though that would risk some spoilers perhaps (though no more so than having an event for each on the same cards).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on June 07, 2016, 02:28:13 pm

How about flying creatures, islands rising from the deep, or bad omens?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 07, 2016, 04:37:56 pm

An island with a wreckage and/order lots of treasure that is actually a mimic adapted to coasts!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 07, 2016, 04:59:01 pm

An island full of benevolent [X extremely dangerous, hostile creature] that act that way fo ko apparent reason?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 07, 2016, 05:45:27 pm

An island that is actually just a sleeping Tarrasque?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neyvn on June 07, 2016, 09:32:14 pm

A lot of things sound great. How about some LowMagic events as well. Not just monsters and magic.

Quote from: sjm9876 on June 07, 2016, 11:51:46 am

Might well be worth splitting the encounter tables up into separate events if you're struggling for cards.  Would also streamline things a little. Hell, you could even split the shore/shallows/deep up, and dispose of the clear sailing cards entirely - just have them only take effect in the relevant area. Though that would risk some spoilers perhaps (though no more so than having an event for each on the same cards).

Not struggling for Cards persay. More filling in the events, I have an idea of some basic ones like posted FallacyofUrist, but its more of the things that you would see around the place that are more unique. The goal is to have around 40-50 cards, 40% are Clear Sailing, 10% are Bad Events, 10% are Good Events, 5% are Unique Events and 35% are Encounters, be they other ships or landmasses like I gave in the example before. Thing is that they also need to be spread over the 3 locations, some will be doubled up simply such as Sails on the Horizon could easily appear on all 3 in one go, but others would make more sense seeing them in the Deep then the Shoreline such as a Treasure Ship or Monster Encounter...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 07, 2016, 09:53:31 pm

DM wants everyone to have an exact copy of their character sheets for him to keep, and for us to make new ones to give to him every session thereafter. So he can adjust the campaign's balance as needed, supposedly.

More likely, he's concerned about cheating. Possibly my fault for constantly changing my mind as to what I want for my character, and it being too much for people to remember. Or he's concerned about people using disallowed materials. Such as pretty much every book for Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 07, 2016, 10:25:08 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 07, 2016, 09:53:31 pm

DM wants everyone to have an exact copy of their character sheets for him to keep, and for us to make new ones to give to him every session thereafter. So he can adjust the campaign's balance as needed, supposedly.

More likely, he's concerned about cheating. Possibly my fault for constantly changing my mind as to what I want for my character, and it being too much for people to remember. Or he's concerned about people using disallowed materials. Such as pretty much every book for Pathfinder.

Or on the positivity approach he wants to mold the game according to the characters and their abilities and needs them as a reference.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 07, 2016, 10:36:48 pm

Not This Guy. He'll happily have his DMPC wipe an encounter by himself. He had a side story all about how this DMPC is destined to destroy an ancient immortal Prismatic Dragon.

This is the bad DM/Problem Player I've been complaining about again, and again, and again, and etc.

Seriously though, he'll ban stuff, but still use it for himself. Or without actually checking if it is as broken as he claims.

The only player who is truly overpowered, other than the DMPC, is the Ranger/Paladin. The only other characters that can clear an entire room by themselves are the DMPC and the Wizard/Arcanist if he gets good damage rolls on his Fireball.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 07, 2016, 11:34:40 pm

Quote from: Neyvn on June 07, 2016, 09:32:14 pm

A lot of things sound great. How about some LowMagic events as well. Not just monsters and magic.

Have you played Sunless Sea? I think you might find some inspiration there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 08, 2016, 12:37:37 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 07, 2016, 10:36:48 pm

Not This Guy. He'll happily have his DMPC wipe an encounter by himself. He had a side story all about how this DMPC is destined to destroy an ancient immortal Prismatic Dragon.

This is the bad DM/Problem Player I've been complaining about again, and again, and again, and etc.

Seriously though, he'll ban stuff, but still use it for himself. Or without actually checking if it is as broken as he claims.

The only player who is truly overpowered, other than the DMPC, is the Ranger/Paladin. The only other characters that can clear an entire room by themselves are the DMPC and the Wizard/Arcanist if he gets good damage rolls on his Fireball.

Most i had for a DMPC was the party's first NPC ally who eventually became guildmaster of the local thieves' guild. It was obvious he was getting absurd amounts of wealth because after some sidetracking, he returned to the party with a lot of magical gear, and went from wearing basic leather armor and common clothes to the best he can possibly get as a 5e rogue and elegant travel clothes.

He was gonna be the surprise final boss for the entire game, where the party follows leads on my world's equivalent of Jack the Ripper (or joker, your pick) who mass murders people (he took out the entire night crew of guards tailing a fellow criminal who's a PC) and steals the souls of people and feeds the soul gems to a demon lord who gave him immortality and power since hes a warlock. When the party finally found out he was the town sheriff, because he killed the real one and stole his identity (they had the same name, and the biggest thing about it, is that the sheriff was supposed to be alive for the majority of the time there while the DMPC took over.

One of the things that lead the party to investigate the sheriff would be the body of someone resembling the sheriff who was mutilated, and by then, the party had obtained two soulstones (one of a party member, the other of the sheriff, both would be unknown until this point) and then it would make sense by the soulstone being near the body as the spirit was finally set free, telling the party he was the real sheriff, and that the one there is an imposter.

The party would then hav to figure out how to get into the guild and start a rather linear but VERY VERY rewarding questline into the underground network of the city, killing/apprehending the fences, the contacts, and so on, until they make it to the guildhouse itself, where they would, not only find several loved NPCs they liked there, but alternate characters that they made and swapped to (which was a big mistake on my end). They would also make it to what looked like the seat of the guildmaster with the warlock on a throne of sorts, surrounded by gold and soul gems. He would then battle the party after dragging them into the abyss, and then after they slay him in normal form, he would rise up again as a half demon, and then the party would not end up killing him, but rather watch him get pulled into the abyss by the damned once defeated.

When that ended, the party would then head out of the empty guild hall, with three people stopping them from leaving: the guildmaster, the head fence who was the party's beloved merchant of everything but what she advertised (she was a shoemaker who had everything but shoes in stock), and the resident badass who was the mercenary muscle of the guild AND the head of the underground pugilist's guild. The party could only turn the merc over down, but only one character could do it, the fence would fight the party regardless due to her friends (the fences and guild member PCs) being slain/apprehended, and the guildmaster himself would battle because he knows that since he's the leader, he has to fight, as reluctant as he would be to fight his closest friends and companions.

The fight was to play out very chaotically, with the fence pulling out her signature weapon, a portable ballista, the guildmaster using two blades that he had custom made for himself, and the pugilist leader using the full extent of being a Way of the Four Elements monk.

Once the party completed this quest, the city they were in would start to go into anarchy, and, if the party killed everyone, the guild is erased, but the town's sources of income and such are brought to such a low that everyone would become poor, and the city would just collapse. If the party killed most (70% or more) of the guild, the city's economy would drop, but the remaining guild members would try to stabilize the economy back to primarily using adventurers to buy and sell gear, providing new adventurers with things, etc, and people would still come. If the party left 70% or more alive, the guild reforms, but doesn't go as extreme and expansionist as it did before, and the econcomy of the town is still stable. Sparing everyone save the hitman would end up having the guild return but the guildmaster would eventually turn the guild's profits into forming his own town, which was an entire city based on commerce.

I wanted to do this and bring it to fruition, but I would either get salty players or one of the most heart wrenching games I ever played

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 08, 2016, 04:30:03 am

A DMPC isn't just any NPC, though. The term mostly refers just to characters played by the GM like PCs in the party alongside the other players, often for no other reason than to realise his own power fantasies. It is a 99.99% negative label - a dmpc that was handled well is unlikely to be called a such due to it not being bad.

_{also wouldn't a portable ballista just be a crossbow}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 08, 2016, 06:24:58 am

Ocean island adventures?

Barbarian Halfling Cannibals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 08, 2016, 07:20:37 am

An abandoned ship with every possible surface covered in crows.

or any old abandoned ship

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on June 08, 2016, 08:56:14 am

A shipwreck with an abandoned wizard's tower growing out of the deck

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on June 08, 2016, 10:45:52 am

Giant floating gelatinous cube.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 08, 2016, 10:48:33 am

Ship stuck in a giant floating gelatinous cube.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 08, 2016, 11:31:16 am

An actual size ship stuck inside a HUUUUGE floating bottle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 08, 2016, 12:56:04 pm

I could see a horde of black puddings taking to the seas and acting like a giant malevolent traveling oil spill.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 08, 2016, 01:07:18 pm

I had this idea for a setting I could create.

Basically it is a standard setting where in the end the heroes won, good triumphed, and while everything isn't perfect the world is going towards being self-sufficiency without hoards, monsters, demons, or magical disasters to really interfere anymore. With many nations with different philosophies, ideas, resources, races, and what have you to really fill things out. Basically putting the timeline at exactly that moment where peace was obtained.

But then I'll keep making the same setting but changing something or inserting something. A sort of "What if" scenario. Like "What if all the demons were released?" and "What if some deity decided to kill everyone leaving the planet nearly barren?" or "What if there was a zombie apocalypse?" or "What if powerful psychics enslaved the planet?" or "What if someone co-opted the gods and were maddening cthulian creatures?"

Over and over again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on June 08, 2016, 04:10:41 pm

So basically bog-standard one-note-plot settings?  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 08, 2016, 04:29:12 pm

The secret is every plot has the same villain and the same PCs, with the villain resetting time whenever the PCs stop them and the PCs only vaguely remembering the previous plot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 08, 2016, 04:45:18 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 08, 2016, 04:29:12 pm

The secret is every plot has the same villain and the same PCs, with the villain resetting time whenever the PCs stop them and the PCs only vaguely remembering the previous plot.

That... actually sounds interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 08, 2016, 06:17:06 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 08, 2016, 04:45:18 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 08, 2016, 04:29:12 pm

The secret is every plot has the same villain and the same PCs, with the villain resetting time whenever the PCs stop them and the PCs only vaguely remembering the previous plot.

That... actually sounds interesting.

I had that as an idea, with a book granting the holder the ability to warp back to the pint they received the book, and then the previous holder, who gave the book to the party, would warn them of the world ending in a set time, and the party member who takes the book would have to pretty much pull Majora's mask and try to figure out everything with just the warning the dying woman gave them. The book also lays a curse on the party member so they cannot be revived if slain (mostly to add more tension and to prevent more context from being given). If you're slain carrying he book, you're returned to the point you got the book but you have twenty seconds to pass it on or the book stop existing.

The plot was pretty much going to be running around finding out more and more info, and the party member having to find a way in RP to convince the others to do stuff while they remember everything that happens after each revert. It was designed to be an end game campaign and be rather long, but very rewarding by the end of it. If you pass the book on willingly or the book is taken by force, the curse passes on to the next person except if you're slain carrying the book

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 08, 2016, 07:06:23 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 08, 2016, 04:45:18 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 08, 2016, 04:29:12 pm

The secret is every plot has the same villain and the same PCs, with the villain resetting time whenever the PCs stop them and the PCs only vaguely remembering the previous plot.

That... actually sounds interesting.

To be honest, not massively.
It's the same villain, so they'll have roughly the same goals. Who's behind it? Skeletor. What's he trying to do? Conquer Eternia.
The methods change, but there's not going to be much room for big twists.

There's also the thing of: "well done, heroes, you've won - now all your achievements will be completely undone and all that cool stuff you found also gone." That's not great, and removes a lot of the sense of progression. There's also the fact if the villain is smart he'd just go back in time and kill Sarah Connor assassinate the heroes. He has as many tries as he likes to find a way that works, he can just go back in time if he fails. Once the heroes are dead he then just progresses his plans.

Did the kingdom burn to ash? Doesn't matter, time will just be reset. Heroes don't have to win, bad guy just has to lose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on June 08, 2016, 07:39:53 pm

Kinda reminds me of Final Fantasy I :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 08, 2016, 07:57:44 pm

You fail to consider other reasons for why the villain would be restring time, or using a different plan every time, or not just killing the heroes outright, Gig.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 08, 2016, 08:10:33 pm

So I read the Demons Book for World of Darkness

And I have to say they are really interesting! and quite creative.

But HOLY COW they seriously bend over backwards just to keep the demon theme. I know they couldn't change it because it was a selling point but... They kind of aren't demons and the Angels aren't really angels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 08, 2016, 08:13:44 pm

New World of Darkness or Old?
I liked their concept a lot better in Old, where they often weren't evil...  just fallen.  They seem completely different in NWoD, basically unambiguous creatures that feed off vice.

Also, one of our players isn't showing up so we're watching an old 90's TV show Kindred: The Embraced.  It's... surprisingly unshitty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 08, 2016, 08:16:22 pm

Definitely Old World of Darkness where they weren't evil or really fallen.

Basically Demons are robots who eventually learned morality and broke off from their mother machine and made human bodies for them to live in. With their ultimate goal to create their own pocket dimensions for them to live in which CAN be a hell but doesn't have to be.

Which is where I am kind of like "They aren't really demons" with the books REALLY stretching and pushing themselves to go "No really guys they are totally demons!".

Which don't get me wrong they are probably one of the most interesting and unique Race in World of Darkness (both new and old) and I realize they needed the brand recognition... But yeah I just chose to completely forget they are demons altogether, that information isn't all that accurate or helpful anyhow.

Sounds like New World of Darkness handles my issue... but makes them blander as a result.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 08, 2016, 11:26:32 pm

After a few hours trying to track down the thrall-to-be, we realized we left the elder's ghoul's corpse in the dumpster.  The Ventrue and my Mekhet went back to cover up the Gangrel's murder...

We get there and notice a bat in the car.  It's obviously a vampire.  "Are you Kayla?" *squeek*.  "Squeek twice if you're Kayla" *silence*
I use Auspex to read aura, but all I get is "hatred".

We're across the street from the crime scene (which is full of police now).  Bat hides under the seat.
Amanda decides to poke it with a stick.  Jake gets the fuck out of the car because we're pretty sure this is Kayla, and she is frenzying at the drop of a hat.  Jake doesn't even know the half of it, but still knows better than to poke the Gangrel with a stick.

The bat rolls an extraordinary grapple success, stealing the stick.  Jake cautions Amanda.  Amanda cranks the radio to max and puts on an Eminem CD, specifically cranking the bass "because bats have sensitive hearing".  JAKE SPRINTS THE HELL AWAY.  Then feels a little bad and returns to watch from around the corner of the Denny's.

seriously though...  Amanda already got nearly sliced in half by our out-of-control gangrel.  I'm not sure why she thought this was a good idea.

Oh hey the bat turned into a wolf and bit the radio in half, and now is chasing Amanda.  "Sorry for frenzying Kayla" says Amanda's player.  I'm pretty sure Amanda's totally screwed unless Jake or her roll very fortunately on a dominate roll...

Oh god Amanda just went into the denny's to order pancakes, with Kayla frenzying inside the car.  Ah, Kayla just tossed the radio straight through the windshield.  Fortunately she seems content to continue destroying the car with her teeth, for now.  Ooh, exceptional success tearing apart the seats...

Amanda:  "Ooh, I hope those pancakes arrive soon..."

So basically Kayla is mindless, and Amanda's player is mindless, and Jake and me and Kayla's player are just boggling vacantly at these shenanigans.

Edit:  Kayla's player keeps thinking up new parts of the car to savage, rather than go after Amanda.  Amanda is trying to mind control the waitress, and we have no idea why

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on June 09, 2016, 12:30:58 am

You have an interesting player group, my friend. :V

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 09, 2016, 07:17:39 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 08, 2016, 07:57:44 pm

You fail to consider other reasons for why the villain would be restring time, or using a different plan every time, or not just killing the heroes outright, Gig.

Such as?
If the same few people are defeating you each time, they become the priority. That's basic logic. Presumably the big bad is capable of suceeding if the heroes do not intervene (else it would be rather pointless campaign all told) so as the main threat the protags need to be dealt with first, while they are both at their weakest and least on guard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 09, 2016, 11:18:51 am

Know what? I should ask this:

Thoughts on/build ideas for pathfinder's vigilante class that was released recently.

I found using enforcer, merciful weapons and having a high intimidate makes for some big damage, at the trade off of hitting everything non-lethally

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 09, 2016, 07:58:47 pm

There's a few Vigilante Talents that go well with that. You have to take the Avenger specialization for them though.

Fist of the Avenger gives Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and adds bonus damage equal to half your level (maximum +5 damage) when using an unarmed attack or attacking with a gauntlet-type weapon. Another Talent, Sucker Punch, adds an additional 1d6 when attacking nonlethally, and adds another 1d6 at levels 6, 12, and 18.

Lethal Grace is also good. Can be taken by any Vigilante, and adds half your level to damage when using Weapon Finesse with a melee weapon, so long as you are using Dexterity for your to-hit chance and your Strength for damage. Paizo seems to want to reel in Dex-to-damage a bit.

Vigilante is cool, though it takes a certain type of campaign to really get much use out of the social abilities. Plus some people complain about how your Renown works. Even an Evil Socialite/Vigilante is still beloved in their area of renown, which some people dislike. Or how a Social Identity can be an absolute nobody, but still famous somehow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 09, 2016, 08:12:27 pm

I admit... if the Avenger Class would let me play Alkaizer... I'd have jumped right freeken on it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EugQfuu1Y6Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EugQfuu1Y6Q)

I kind of wish these games would have a cool action magic sword. But I guess with the spell system it is kind of impossible :P

I am just a sucker for big flashy moves :P but the Sorcerers and Mages got the cornerstone :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 09, 2016, 10:37:33 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 09, 2016, 07:58:47 pm

There's a few Vigilante Talents that go well with that. You have to take the Avenger specialization for them though.

Fist of the Avenger gives Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and adds bonus damage equal to half your level (maximum +5 damage) when using an unarmed attack or attacking with a gauntlet-type weapon. Another Talent, Sucker Punch, adds an additional 1d6 when attacking nonlethally, and adds another 1d6 at levels 6, 12, and 18.

Lethal Grace is also good. Can be taken by any Vigilante, and adds half your level to damage when using Weapon Finesse with a melee weapon, so long as you are using Dexterity for your to-hit chance and your Strength for damage. Paizo seems to want to reel in Dex-to-damage a bit.

Vigilante is cool, though it takes a certain type of campaign to really get much use out of the social abilities. Plus some people complain about how your Renown works. Even an Evil Socialite/Vigilante is still beloved in their area of renown, which some people dislike. Or how a Social Identity can be an absolute nobody, but still famous somehow.

I managed to find ways to constantly use the bonus damage as a stalker avenger. While I don't get the heavy striker damage that the avenger vigilante gets, I get some nice abilities. Up Close and Personal is probably going to be my main source of damage being level 11. Plus, Twisting Fear is REALLY nasty with that bonus to intimidate Incredible Renown gives you, plus its even more insane when you add social grace to intimidate checks as well.

I also noticed that it mentions the social identity is SUPPOSED to be a merchant or noble (as seen in the Double Time description), so it tries to make you a person of relevance. My character is a renown gunsmith (guns are everywhere in the game I'm playing, and most modern firearms are considered martial) and co-owns a company with his cousin (which is how we explained the broken as fuck Celebrity Discount talent).

I also want to put forth on the table that vigilantes made at level 11 specifically are slightly broken if the DM lets you take into account your social talents (my DM allowed it and regretted it later, but it made sense once we took into account that my character is the head gunsmith for his world's equivalent of Henry Repeaters). Due to the rules on upgrading items, you can just get everything that costs 8000gp or less and then upgrade it. Its how my character has every magic item slot filled, several slotless magical items (mostly handy haversack, bag of holding) and still has 4000gp left over.

I also looked into the archetypes, and I noticed how they have a few archetypes based on other superheroes, such as Brute being Hulk (and freaking awesome) and the wildsoul having Hawkman, Spiderman and... I think sabertooth? (I don't know what superhero turns into a bear and ONLY a bear, and even using sabertooth is wrong) Either way, I realized that the wildsoul seems more for flavor than actual use, especially the arachnid one. In order to fully be useful, you have to pump up your con score, which adds another ability score you have to crank up, and even then, you waste one of your precious uses of your webs just to move around cooler.

The others just seem to be "you're half vigilante, half gunslinger/magus/inquisitor/cavalier/psion, enjoy".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 09, 2016, 10:57:03 pm

The Brute is pretty cool, but having a poor Will save on an archetype that requires the save in order to not attack your allies was a terrible design choice. Especially with a relatively high DC of 20 plus your Vigilante level.

The Gunslinger archetype isn't even as good as the actual Gunslinger is. Sidenote, the Maverick archetype for Gunslinger introduced in the same book ain't bad.

The one with the animal companion is just funny, since your pet has a secret identity, too. Your animal cannot benefit from the quick-change abilities, either.

The Cabalist is alright, for a blood-mage-type character, though I would just merge it and the Warlock, since they share a handful of abilities and a spell-list/casting stat. Just choose whether you'd want the bleed damage or the rather terrible Mystic Bolts. The playtest had much better scaling, with you getting 1d6 plus your level, rather than 1d6 plus one-fifth your level.

The Magical Child archetype is very meh. Good concept, but the Summoner spell list isn't great. I'd choose any other 0-6 caster than the Summoner. Though the familiar's ability to shift between different Improved Familiars is really neat. The DM said that Magical Children should get Sorcerer spellcasting abilities, and do in his games, since he really wants to play one. And I am surprised to be able to say that the Magical Girl trope has already been done in Pathfinder before, in the Chosen One (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Chosen%20One) Paladin archetype. I find that hilarious.

Wildsoul is a cool concept that allows you to impersonate some memorable superheroes, but the abilities just come online too late for the arachnid and the ursine. Poor Bear-man, always ignored.

And Zealot's a sort of Paladin/Inquisitor, without as many alignment restrictions. I haven't any complaints about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 09, 2016, 11:19:03 pm

Magical Child is literally Sailor Moon.

Don't ask me how I know that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 09, 2016, 11:48:45 pm

There's a "magical girl" fan module for World of Darkness.  It's... way more serious than I expected, though I'm not experienced with senshis and stuff.  It seems to be about fighting for hope, while fully recognizing that WoD is grimdark.
http://princesswod.wikia.com/wiki/Introduction

As for our vampire group, our ventrue managed to scare off our frenzying gangrel by lighting a fire (again).  They both fled from the flames in Rotschrek, and everything's cool.
Well, except this time she started the fire by tossing a human into an open grill.
and passed the humanity check AGAIN.  Still 7 humanity.  Despite being a malkavian (basically twice as likely to degenerate).  The GM is past fake-crying and is openly plotting revenge (all in good fun.  Seriously, these rolls have been insane).

Meanwhile... uh.  My character took care of the runaway human who witnessed Kayla... being Kayla.

It was a lot like his own embrace, actually.  Hiding in panicked terror, watching a door.  Well, Jake didn't have a gun, but it's not like it mattered here...
And much like his embrace, it turned out much better than expected.
sorta
Immortality is good right?  And superpowers?
yeah our characters are all monsters, Jake's just in denial about it

(And that's not even getting into the vinculum.  I guess being deeply, personally disturbing is a mark of a good game.)
Anyway next session we're desperately trying to recharge our willpowers ASAP.  In other words we need to "relax" by exercising our vices in inventive and irresponsible ways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 09, 2016, 11:50:15 pm

I can totally see a Malkavian murdering someone and not losing humanity. Yep.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 10, 2016, 05:57:36 am

That reminds me someone made a Steven Universe DnD-style game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 10, 2016, 02:01:59 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 09, 2016, 10:57:03 pm

The Brute is pretty cool, but having a poor Will save on an archetype that requires the save in order to not attack your allies was a terrible design choice. Especially with a relatively high DC of 20 plus your Vigilante level.

The Gunslinger archetype isn't even as good as the actual Gunslinger is. Sidenote, the Maverick archetype for Gunslinger introduced in the same book ain't bad.

The one with the animal companion is just funny, since your pet has a secret identity, too. Your animal cannot benefit from the quick-change abilities, either.

The Cabalist is alright, for a blood-mage-type character, though I would just merge it and the Warlock, since they share a handful of abilities and a spell-list/casting stat. Just choose whether you'd want the bleed damage or the rather terrible Mystic Bolts. The playtest had much better scaling, with you getting 1d6 plus your level, rather than 1d6 plus one-fifth your level.

The Magical Child archetype is very meh. Good concept, but the Summoner spell list isn't great. I'd choose any other 0-6 caster than the Summoner. Though the familiar's ability to shift between different Improved Familiars is really neat. The DM said that Magical Children should get Sorcerer spellcasting abilities, and do in his games, since he really wants to play one. And I am surprised to be able to say that the Magical Girl trope has already been done in Pathfinder before, in the Chosen One (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Chosen%20One) Paladin archetype. I find that hilarious.

Wildsoul is a cool concept that allows you to impersonate some memorable superheroes, but the abilities just come online too late for the arachnid and the ursine. Poor Bear-man, always ignored.

And Zealot's a sort of Paladin/Inquisitor, without as many alignment restrictions. I haven't any complaints about it.

I find it interesting to note though how intimidate is one of their primary skills that they use, because it normally does get overlooked. Why do it when you can drop a fear spell? And there are a few things that are immune to fear effects, so it can potentially cripple their appearance abilities.

I do find it interesting that every version of the vigilante is similar to another class. Stalker is like a rogue and avenger is like a fighter. They just get some flashy extras. While I know that avenger seems to be the best in terms of damage output, some of the defensive skills that stalker has access to makes it really shine when sending them out on their own. Throw in the Up Close and Personal talent, Rooftop Infiltrator and Perfect Fall, and you're constantly on the hit and run tactic. Even if you're spotted afterwards, the Up Close and Personal ability allows you to keep using the d8's rather than the d4's. Throw in boots of speed for haste or some sort of movement increasing magic, and enemies will be hurting while you climb up walls, drop down as a free action, run through them, and climb back up out of their reach. It'll suck because you don't get more than one of those attacks per turn, but if you get a normal attack in first and then start moving, you're gonna have some fun.

My stalker vigilante that I'm using right now though doesn't really go that way; as I said, I focus on non-lethal damage. Since the campaign he's going to be in is based around us being law enforcement (or aiding them in my case), it wouldn't hurt to keep everyone alive. He has two merciful modern revolvers that he uses against enemies that are too far away for him to use his blades or such. He uses medium armor and has the talent that removes the penalty to stealth and acrobatics while wearing it, which is nice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 04:25:34 pm

Since you are going non-lethal, have you considered picking up the Sap Adept or Sap Master feats to get more out of your sneak-attack?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 10, 2016, 05:44:15 pm

I didn't know those were things. I'll look into it.

Also, what did you have in mind to make an avenger vigilante?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 06:15:47 pm

Avenger is alright for a Fighter-type. Good with unarmed attacks, thanks to the talents 'Fist of the Avenger' and 'Sucker Punch', but aside from that and their more Fighter-esque stuff, I don't actually find them too notable.

I think I like Stalker more. They get some of the fun stuff, like Hide in Plain Sight.

And since I forget to link them, here's Sap Adept (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sap%20Adept) and Sap Master (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sap%20Master). They are a core part of a non-lethal bleed build I cooked up. You need a weapon that can do bludgeoning and either piercing or slashing at the same time, which more or less limits you to guns or a morningstar. Grab the Rogue Talent that deals an amount of bleed equal to your Sneak Attack dice. It now more than double bleed because of these two feats. Add in a Wounding (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wounding) weapon for even more bleed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 10, 2016, 07:06:20 pm

Oh god... If it wasn't for using shortswords for flavour, I would totally use that. I'll consider it for later levels

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 10, 2016, 07:14:25 pm

We're looking down the barrel of a full party wipe!

Last night saw our dead druid arrive with a new character, a human witch. She meets up with our gnome kineticist in the market when they both intervene in a domestic violence event. Rather than confront the man in the market, our gnome follows him to his home and lobs a brick through his window. Man proceeds to come outside and punch him unconscious with nonlethal fisticuffs. Our witch arrives at the scene and heals him, sneaks up to the window and peeks inside, whereupon our wifebeater comes out with a crossbow and tells them all to get off his lawn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelBNtNm8l0).

Gnome decides to throw more crap at the guy, and gets knocked unconscious again, waking up in the local guard lockup and spending the night in a cell. Witch doesn't get arrested since witnesses don't report her getting in on the fight. The guards release the gnome the next day with a stern warning that he's not to go near the house again, and he meets back up with our witch to thank her for the healing the previous day.

He's present when our witch gets a task given by the leader of her local coven to go investigate a local farmer's troubles with reported zombies on his land. She decides it'd be good to have another person along, so she casts Sow Thought on him to get his assistance, which works. They meet up with the third party member, an elf magus/cavalier, and go investigate the farm, tracking the zombie's path into a nearby wood.

Encounter time! Four void zombies are seen deep inside the wood, and two get taken down with ranged attacks before the rest can close with the party. Then things go south. The elf goes down bleeding with one shot, the witch has no spells that can affect undead, and the gnome gets chased around the forest for six rounds and seemingly cannot roll higher than a five on his attack rolls. A critical fumble roll lands the witch unconscious for four rounds, and her familiar actually does a decent job tanking the third zombie before it gets hit and goes down bleeding.

We end the session with all three characters unconscious. The witch has stabilised, but the gnome and the elf are both bleeding out slowly. The good news is that next session our party samurai should be present, meaning it's up to him to come save the day before his companions get eaten by zombies!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 07:29:49 pm

Damn, sounds like some crappy rolls all around.  Not just the zombies, but the POS beat up the gnome character... twice?!  I know he's a gnome, but I hope he's a caster or something to go down that easy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 07:38:12 pm

Kineticists are psychic casters. A D8 hitdie, but most can't do melee well, provoking attacks unless they have the right talents. Using their abilities may also cause nonlethal damage that can only heal through rest. It can easily be avoided, but you have to be knowledgeable about the class, so it isn't a good class for beginners.

Think of a blaster caster with a bit more health but an extremely limited list of spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on June 10, 2016, 08:30:15 pm

I'm pretty ignorant of World of Darkness stuffs, but I wanted to ask: is there a human module for the system/setting? Something along the lines of Call of Cthulhu, I would assume.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 08:37:22 pm

Totally!  The base rulebook describes making a typical human person.  Vampires (and I think most other supernatural PCs) start by making a someone like that, then fucking them up with a supernatural template.

There's also a book and playstyle dedicated to hunters, mundane humans who have had enough of said supernaturals.  I haven't peeked, but I do know they get some extraordinary abilities like ignoring fear and pain.  Along with Blade-style equipment.  The one we faced had a knife that glowed (and burned) like the sun...  and a dynamite vest.

Furthermore, the morality system is a lot like sanity (especially for vampires, but even for mortals).  As the characters do things which shock them and corrupt their worldview, lowering their morality, they have a large chance of gaining "derangements"... CoC-style mental issues.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2016, 08:40:39 pm

It is sad that 4e is currently the only dnd book (and I am counting Pathfinder) that had the genius idea of having a Class that is basically you becoming a more and more powerful supernatural being.

As in the Vampire Class for 4e.

A genius idea that should have seen a lot more use. Heck I originally thought Pathfinder HAD stuff like that (Turning Templates into a limited level class) but nope.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on June 10, 2016, 08:42:30 pm

I thought it made too much sense not to exist, but am too ignorant to know. :V

Thanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 08:47:31 pm

Pff I didn't know much about WoD until a few months ago when my group decided to give it a shot :P

Well I knew some about OLD World of Darkness from the Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines game.  But some things changed in New WoD (mostly for the better, I feel).

Quote from: Neonivek on June 10, 2016, 08:40:39 pm

Well...
3.5e had monks become outsiders at level 20.  Not that *anybody* takes 20 levels of straight monk, but it sorta fits with the general flavor.  Monks are arguably powerful spirits limited by their flesh.

But more explicitly, Complete Arcane had a prestige class where you turn into an elemental.  And I think one for becoming a construct?
And libris mortis had undead PC classes with advancement.  They were mostly ass, but that's just balance.  Thematically it did work pretty well for our mummy, clawing his way out of the ground then advancing in strength and supernatural powers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2016, 08:54:24 pm

None of those really count in the same way (monks especially since all they did is change their creature class... except not really because they suffer none of the disadvantages for being an Outsider)

It is the difference between the Dragon Disciple and playing a Dragon. As the Vampire class you were a Vampire, you were just advancing through stages of your vampiric power.

Well MAYBE the Libris Mortis had it, I wouldn't know. Savage species also had a precursor to it where you slowly transformed into a monster (and was a total mess and usually useless)

---

Want to know another book that used it?

My Little Pony... Yes there are My Little Pony Dungeons and dragons books that actually use those concepts making certain types of ponys classes on their own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 09:15:35 pm

Hm, I don't know 4e at all, but I honestly think Libris Mortis has what you're talking about.  Upon becoming undead (by whatever means, necromancy or infection) the player basically just gets the undead template.  Then has to advance along the monster class (instead of other classes), gaining all the expected abilities of a ghoul/vampire/mummy/whatever.

In return it goes beyond the basic monsters, granting upscaled abilities.  And when the class is complete, the PC can take proper class levels freely.

It's pretty expensive, though, and hardly perfect.  A mummy under the system can't really be a sorcerer as the fluff suggests.
They can be an absurd melee powerhouse, but interestingly their BAB will be low!  Their strength is just high.  This actually worked out kinda cool, because it meant our vampire PC didn't get many extra attacks or qualify for a lot of martial feats.  Much less receive the typical fighter bonus feats.  But when it hit, it hit HARD - and because STR determines accuracy, it HIT.

Edit:  As for MLP, I'm not surprised :P  We actually all enjoy the show, but never used the dandwiki MLP content.  Or looked up any fanbooks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2016, 09:23:16 pm

Ohh so Libris Mortis used the broken Savage Species system... That couldn't have been good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 09:28:16 pm

I didn't read Savage Species myself, but my best friend did for his polymorph-specialist wizard.  From what I heard it has a lot more options than Libris Mortis, which is painfully linear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 10, 2016, 10:03:30 pm

Having played 4e, that's not the same.

You start as a vampire and continue to grow in strength as a vampire. Since multiclassing was a feat thing, and not a level thing, you were always a vampire. It's actually one of the most interesting but probably the most shunned class to use because it doesn't have much versatility, similarly to the elementalist and the blackguard classes.

I would have loved to see it expanded on or even brought back into 5e. The fact of being a vampire outside of a bonus of whatever, and getting stronger that way sounds awesome, and then expand it to other supernatural beings, like Lycanthropes, it would be much cooler.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 10:07:36 pm

I don't think I understand.  Via Libris Mortis you were a vampire, but it was basically a prestige class you were forced to advance.  I think the "forced to advance" part was detrimental, players should have had a choice, but eh.

What's it like in 4e?  The default vampire template in 3.5e grants some extreme bonuses, so it had to cost a few levels to be at all balanced.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 10, 2016, 10:14:31 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 10:07:36 pm

I don't think I understand.  Via Libris Mortis you were a vampire, but it was basically a prestige class you were forced to advance.  I think the "forced to advance" part was detrimental, players should have had a choice, but eh.

What's it like in 4e?  The default vampire template in 3.5e grants some extreme bonuses, so it had to cost a few levels to be at all balanced.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/vampire#Vampires_in_4E

Quote from: Neonivek on June 10, 2016, 09:23:16 pm

Ohh so Libris Mortis used the broken Savage Species system... That couldn't have been good.

Savage Species isn't the sort of content you bring to a serious game. It's nacho cheese. You don't bring nacho cheese to a nice classy dinner with your SO's friends, you bring it to watch the game with the guys. You bring brie, or a nice camembert. But, if you bring fancy cheese to the Superbowl party, you're going to get strange looks.
Savage Species is for games when the DM gives out LA like candy, not for any other game. It's silly content for a silly game. SS is great, at the right time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 10, 2016, 10:40:13 pm

Ah okay, I forgot/didn't know how multiclassing worked in 4e.
Still don't really, but that's alright.

Basically "Vampire" was a class, and you can't change class, just borrow crossclass abilities via feat?
That's cool I guess, particularly since 4th edition is so different that comparing it to other editions is apples to oranges.

But... what if a PC contracts vampirism?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 10, 2016, 11:06:45 pm

Well, long story short, it doesn't work that way in 4e. There are two ways to create a vampire: creating a vampire spawn or preforming something called the Dark Gift of the Undying, which is easily the stupidest name for a dark ritual that I've ever heard. There's no disease of vampirism, and no way to 'contract' it. Frankly, I don't much like that system, it lacks drama and is clearly setup for set-pieces instead of emergent storytelling.

Quote

CREATING VAMPIRE SPAWN
A living humanoid slain by a vampire lord’s blood drain power rises as a vampire spawn of its level at sunset on the following day. This rise can be prevented by burning the body or severing its head.
A living humanoid reduced to 0 hit points or fewer—but not killed—by a vampire lord can’t be healed and remains in a deep, deathlike coma. He or she dies at sunset of the next day, rising as a vampire spawn. A Remove Affliction ritual cast before the afflicted creature dies prevents death and makes normal healing possible.

Quote

DARK GIFT OF THE UNDYING
In the unholy name of Orcus, the Blood Lord, you transform another being into a vampiric creature of the night.
Level: 11 (caster must be a vampire lord)
Category: Creation
Time: 6 hours; see text
Duration: Permanent
Component Cost: 5,000 gp per level of the subject
Market Price: 75,000 gp
Key Skill: Religion
This ritual can be performed only between sunset and sunrise. As part of the ritual, you and the ritual’s subject must drink a small amount of each other’s blood, after which the subject dies and is ritually buried in unhallowed ground. After the interment, you invoke a prayer to Orcus and ask him to bestow the Dark Gift upon the subject. At the conclusion of the ritual, the subject remains buried, rising up out of its shallow grave as a vampire lord at sunset on the following day. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 181, for rules on creating new vampire lords.) This ritual is ruined if a Raise Dead ritual is cast on the subject or if the subject is beheaded before rising as a vampire lord.
Performing the ritual leaves you weakened for 1d10 days (no save).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:16:54 pm

I'd imagine that a Vampire would be immune to vampirism.

Similar note, Pathfinder will be getting a horror book, aptly named Horror Adventures, some time after July. It will be revamping lycanthropes, vampires, and other creatures of the dark, as well as ways for a character to willingly become one. It will also include new rules for sanity and madness, which are fairly lacking as-is. There is also the usual collection of class archetypes, items, and spells, which will also be horror themed.

It will be interesting to see how that will turn out. Especially since I thought that Paizo's answer to playable vampires and were-beasts were the Dhampir and Skinwalker races.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 10, 2016, 11:37:10 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:16:54 pm

I'd imagine that a Vampire would be immune to vampirism.

Similar note, Pathfinder will be getting a horror book, aptly named Horror Adventures, some time after July. It will be revamping lycanthropes, vampires, and other creatures of the dark, as well as ways for a character to willingly become one. It will also include new rules for sanity and madness, which are fairly lacking as-is. There is also the usual collection of class archetypes, items, and spells, which will also be horror themed.

It will be interesting to see how that will turn out. Especially since I thought that Paizo's answer to playable vampires and were-beasts were the Dhampir and Skinwalker races.

I thought it was a shot at Revenants and Shifters?

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on June 10, 2016, 11:06:45 pm

Well, long story short, it doesn't work that way in 4e. There are two ways to create a vampire: creating a vampire spawn or preforming something called the Dark Gift of the Undying, which is easily the stupidest name for a dark ritual that I've ever heard. There's no disease of vampirism, and no way to 'contract' it. Frankly, I don't much like that system, it lacks drama and is clearly setup for set-pieces instead of emergent storytelling.

Quote

CREATING VAMPIRE SPAWN
A living humanoid slain by a vampire lord’s blood drain power rises as a vampire spawn of its level at sunset on the following day. This rise can be prevented by burning the body or severing its head.
A living humanoid reduced to 0 hit points or fewer—but not killed—by a vampire lord can’t be healed and remains in a deep, deathlike coma. He or she dies at sunset of the next day, rising as a vampire spawn. A Remove Affliction ritual cast before the afflicted creature dies prevents death and makes normal healing possible.

Quote

DARK GIFT OF THE UNDYING
In the unholy name of Orcus, the Blood Lord, you transform another being into a vampiric creature of the night.
Level: 11 (caster must be a vampire lord)
Category: Creation
Time: 6 hours; see text
Duration: Permanent
Component Cost: 5,000 gp per level of the subject
Market Price: 75,000 gp
Key Skill: Religion
This ritual can be performed only between sunset and sunrise. As part of the ritual, you and the ritual’s subject must drink a small amount of each other’s blood, after which the subject dies and is ritually buried in unhallowed ground. After the interment, you invoke a prayer to Orcus and ask him to bestow the Dark Gift upon the subject. At the conclusion of the ritual, the subject remains buried, rising up out of its shallow grave as a vampire lord at sunset on the following day. (See the Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 181, for rules on creating new vampire lords.) This ritual is ruined if a Raise Dead ritual is cast on the subject or if the subject is beheaded before rising as a vampire lord.
Performing the ritual leaves you weakened for 1d10 days (no save).

We had a player who was a warlock in one of our games, and there was the opportunity to deal with a vampire lord. He wanted to contact vampirism the whole time, but we never got that far (at least, I didn't because I had to leave to go to rehab) but the DM allowed it.

In my 4e game I was Dming, I had a vampire who was all about the RP, and he played the character magnificently until non-vocal RP was involved. He dropped a tree on the only lady in the party who he was just flirting with, he made people think he was gay with the party dragonborn wizard, and he killed himself on accident by drinknig the blood of a guy who was killed by a guy who he knew used poisons. Party Avenger, who was the only one with a heal skill, had to make 3 successes and no failures. He made 2 and failed the last one by one, and thus began the first real player death.

The one thing I noticed with the 4e vampires is they lack any solid paragon paths or epic destinies. And I don't mean unique to them, I mean they had the choice of 4 paragon paths, two of which was available to everyone

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:50:31 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on June 10, 2016, 11:37:10 pm

I thought it was a shot at Revenants and Shifters?

Dhampir are directly stated to be born of vampires, and Skinwalkers are descendants of Lycanthropes. Doesn't stop them from being afflicted by those curses, though.

Haven't seen any direct mentions of Revenants or Shifters for this book. I haven't read the product's discussion page however, and sometimes they give sneak-peeks in there. Like the Legacy of Dragons Player Companion, where it was revealed that we'll get a dragon-themed Druid, a Dragon Oracle Mystery, and a Dragon Spirit with dragon-themed Hexes for Shamans and Witches. Many people in that product's discussion thread are screaming for the Dragonborn race and for a dragon-riding Cavalier archetype.

Anyways, here's the Horror product page (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9jcx?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Horror-Adventures-Hardcover), if anyone is curious.

Quote

Horror Adventures includes:

• Corruptions that can turn your character into a monster, from a blood-drinking vampire to a savage werewolf. The only cost is your very soul!
• Character options to help heroes face the forces of darkness, including horror-themed archetypes, feats, spells, and more!
• Rules for sanity and madness, giving you all the tools you need to drive your characters to the brink and beyond.
• Tips and tools for running a scary game, along with expanded rules for curses, diseases, haunts, and fleshwarping to bring your nightmares to life.
• New templates to turn your monsters into truly terrifying foes, from creatures made from living wax to the stalker that cannot be stopped!
• …and much, much more!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 10, 2016, 11:52:51 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:50:31 pm

Quote

Corruptions that can turn your character into a monster, from a blood-drinking vampire to a savage werewolf. The only cost is your very soul!

The powergamer in my just sat up, and leaned into take a closer look. He likes free power boosts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:55:32 pm

Funny note, Werebears are Lawful Good. The only Good lycanthropes. I can't imagine how it works when the full moon is out, and you lose control over your character.

Similarly, Wereboars are Chaotic Neutral. Every other lycanthrope is some shade of Evil.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 11, 2016, 12:16:54 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:55:32 pm

Funny note, Werebears are Lawful Good. The only Good lycanthropes. I can't imagine how it works when the full moon is out, and you lose control over your character.

Quote from: 3.5 MM

Werebears in humanoid form tend to be stout, well-muscled, and hairy. Their brown hair is thick, and males usually wear beards. They may have reddish, blond, ivory, or black hair, matching the color of their ursine form. They dress in simple cloth and leather garments that are easy to remove, repair, or replace. In their animal form, werebears are moody and grumpy. They desire only their own company and seek out evil creatures to slay.

4e does not have Werebears.

Quote from: 5E MM

Werebears are powerful lycanthropes with the ability to temper their monstrous natures and reject their violent impulses. In humanoid form, they are large, muscular, and covered in hair matching the color of their ursine form's fur. A were bear is a loner by nature, fearing what might happen to innocent creatures around it when its bestial nature takes over.
When a werebear transforms, it grows to enormous size, lashing out with weapons or claws. It fights with the ferocity of a bear, though even in its bestial forms, it avoids biting so as to not pass on its curse. Typically, a were bear passes on its lycanthropy only to chosen companions or apprentices, spending the time that follows helping the new lycanthrope accept the curse in order to control it.
Solitary creatures, werebears act as wardens over their territory, protecting flora and fauna alike from humanoid or monstrous intrusion. Though most werebears are of good alignment, some are every bit as evil as other lycanthropes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 11, 2016, 12:23:12 am

Not too far from Pathfinder's version of them.

Quote from: Bestiary 2

In their humanoid forms, werebears tend to be muscular and broad-shouldered, with stark facial features and dark eyes. Their hair is usually red, brown, or black, and they look like they are used to a lifetime of hard work. Though by far the most benign of common lycanthropes, werebears are shunned by most normal folk, who fear and mistrust their animal transformations. Most live as recluses in forested areas or in small family units among their own kind. They avoid confrontations with strangers but do not hesitate to drive evil humanoids out of their territory.

Some werebears are angry and violent, because of either temperament or a lifetime of harassment from others, and these mean ones aren’t afraid to put an axe in a trespasser’s face or eat someone who pushes them too far. Cool-headed werebears don’t like to speak of these individuals with strangers.

Quote from: Blood of the Moon

Even more so than werebear-kin, werebears are natural protectors of the wilderness, and they often associate closely with druids and clerics of nature deities. Although they prefer solitude even more than werebear-kin do, they feel compelled to ensure others benefit from their guidance and magic. Werebears are loners much of the time, but often form small, temporary family units when rearing children. Werebears generally think of all their kin as family, including werebear-kin, and most keep in touch with all family members for security and to share their experiences.

Werebears normally avoid adventure, so adventurers of this species tend to break the mold in more than one way.

Most often, they are restless wanderers who think of the world as their home or failed guardians who survived the destruction of their homes and seek a new purpose or atonement for failure. Others seek out rival lycanthropes in an attempt to reform and support them or, failing that, end the threat they pose to humanity and nature alike.

But an afflicted lycanthrope has no control over themselves when transformed. Unless you are in an Evil party, I can't really see the Werebear really doing much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 11, 2016, 12:46:43 am

There are werebears in 4e. They're part of a background for Dark Sun campaign. Theres an option to start as a werewolf too, but nothing like the vampire.

With that, you could actually be a vampire/werewolf and it would be the funniest thing ever

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 12, 2016, 09:15:55 pm

Wow, the release of Exalted 3rd edition really snuck its way out there fast.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on June 13, 2016, 01:37:55 am

Quote from: Neonivek on June 12, 2016, 09:15:55 pm

Wow, the release of Exalted 3rd edition really snuck its way out there fast.

Looking at it, it is possibly the most expensive new RPG book I've seen (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/162759/Exalted-3rd-Edition), and quite massive, weighing in at 659 pages, just look at this thing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/ex3-pod.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 13, 2016, 01:46:40 am

And YET it still wouldn't be the biggest RPG book I ever seen.

Though... Hero System 5th edition revised isn't that far ahead... In fact I am fully open to being mistaken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 13, 2016, 05:40:50 am

Of course, if you stacked all the 3.5e books on top of one another it'd probably be enough weight to crush a man.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 13, 2016, 05:49:13 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:55:32 pm

Funny note, Werebears are Lawful Good. The only Good lycanthropes. I can't imagine how it works when the full moon is out, and you lose control over your character.

Similarly, Wereboars are Chaotic Neutral. Every other lycanthrope is some shade of Evil.

A man wakes up on the leafen forest floor, naked and dew covered and shivering from the cold. With no memory of how he git there he fears for the worst, thinking of his near and dear and what he might've done to them, envisioning in his head one dreaded scenario after another, each more twisting of his guts with horror than the last. He slowly finds his way back to the town where he lives, hurrying to his house through the back alleys and unseen places, only to find out when he gets there that the truth was worse than his even wildest imaginations.

During the night, had had not only turned his house into a nonprofit orphanage-school for homeless children, but also started and organized a grassroots neighbourhood association of volounteers with the goal of person-level improvement and beautification of the town environment.

His hope faltered. The shame. The shame.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 13, 2016, 07:31:14 am

Quote from: scriver on June 13, 2016, 05:49:13 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 10, 2016, 11:55:32 pm

Funny note, Werebears are Lawful Good. The only Good lycanthropes. I can't imagine how it works when the full moon is out, and you lose control over your character.

Similarly, Wereboars are Chaotic Neutral. Every other lycanthrope is some shade of Evil.

A man wakes up on the leafen forest floor, naked and dew covered and shivering from the cold. With no memory of how he git there he fears for the worst, thinking of his near and dear and what he might've done to them, envisioning in his head one dreaded scenario after another, each more twisting of his guts with horror than the last. He slowly finds his way back to the town where he lives, hurrying to his house through the back alleys and unseen places, only to find out when he gets there that the truth was worse than his even wildest imaginations.

During the night, had had not only turned his house into a nonprofit orphanage-school for homeless children, but also started and organized a grassroots neighbourhood association of volounteers with the goal of person-level improvement and beautification of the town environment.

His hope faltered. The shame. The shame.

Gorgeous, just beautiful. Orphans are overused in D&D but you sold me when you used the term 'grassroots.' Bravo sir.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on June 13, 2016, 07:43:00 am

Man, operation TPK is going pretty worryingly in our current campaign. The wizard is bleeding out behind a pillar forty feet from the rest of the party, the cleric is burning spells to stay alive, I'm running out of arrows, and it's only a matter of time before someone fails a Fort save and gets poisoned by an imp.

This is what happens when you let the paladin try to sneak down the stairs in full plate. You attract most of a castle's worth of devil-worshippers.

On the plus side, I think I can kill at least one of the imps next turn, the monk is putting out a lot of damage on the regular mortals (he has lightning fists!) and the paladin has still only been hit... once? I just have a worrying feeling that this is going to end with Launce (me) backed into one corner, See Lin (monk) in another, and Arin (paladin) in a third. Then either See Lin goes down when he runs out of ki, or I go down on a bad roll, and Arin finally gets mobbed to death.

Of course, it might not go that way! We just have to kill three imps, three guards, an angry noble with a greatsword, and a hopefully severely wounded bearded devil.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on June 13, 2016, 08:18:17 am

Quote from: Jimmy on June 13, 2016, 07:31:14 am

Gorgeous, just beautiful. Orphans are overused in D&D but you sold me when you used the term 'grassroots.' Bravo sir.

I also had a vision of this giant manbear creature standing in line at the local dwarven bank, trying to get an investment loan for his initiatives granted by a very moody and slumbrous teller as the full moon shines in from a window.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 13, 2016, 12:42:41 pm

Expecting a shitshow today in D&D with this youtuber. His monk just bit the dust last campaign and he decided to be a warlock next, and one of the party members doesn't like wizards so much, so he's swapping to a bard con artist.

He's already asking me (as my arcane trickster) to con with him for half of the profits. The idea is that he puts word around town (he already did) that he's missing a ring and he's offering a huge reward for its return. I find said ring around some sketchy folk, who will demand the ring be given to them. I end up goading them for compensation, and if all goes well, buddy goes to return the ring, and the bard will do some shinnanigans to either Have them give it back without charge, minimal charge, or if it comes down to it, he'll turn them down and, as an arcane trickster, I steal the ring back.

It is definitely something my character would agree to work with, But I'm scared if we run into a roughneck who tries to rob me. My rogue is rather squishy since I fumbled a hit die roll

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 13, 2016, 07:49:43 pm

I am too scared to buy Exalted 3rd edition even at its incredibly modest price (for the PDF) of 40 bucks.

Exalted 2nd edition was sort of a great setting with a horrible system attached where great games were owed more to the DM then to the system it was connected to.

I really want to get a look at it, but it is pretty much impossible >_<

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 13, 2016, 08:56:56 pm

So today, we met the ultimate goal who was taking a child and then he just kind of leaves after I cast charm person on him. All damage dealt to him initially (all 30+ of it) was healed instantly. At that, the bounty for the bandits was given completely to one character who was backing out because he's too old (and the player doesn't like playing the squishy wizard), my character has a panic attack from seeing how devastating this child villain is and storms off back towards the initial town alone while the paladin thinks he's now alone and goes into depression when he realizes that some money he had found (a large sum of 25000 gold) was all counterfeit. My character finally reveals for the first time he's a half-elf who's elf side is drow, and he manhandles a paladin (who I will say is impressive being a rogue with a 0 strength mod) to stop being spineless, and we end up going to go get new recruits for the guild, which now has only three people working at it and the list of potential recruits is 2 others (aka the party members we have yet to recruit). I made a joke saying "Gaze upon thy guild. See that it is barren" as i shout it into an empty guildhall. We also have to convince one of them to join us without any money, and the guy is known to be a sleazy con artist... My rogue isn't the best when it comes to persuasion, and the paladin (and to an extent, it seems his player too) seems to have lost interest and is doing all he can to annoy or piss off my character (or me directly). We also end up helping a very depressing town somewhat by aiding the people inside of a bar that had a divorcing couple, a man with a paper on him that only says "She's deaf" and "I have arthritis", a deaf woman, an overweight barfly and a barkeep who likes money. My character had fun with the man with the paper at first by taking the paper, reading it and realizing its a script, and writes on it to give his money to the paladin. Seeing it worked, he then freed the man by writing "Improv for the next 33 years" and the man runs off screaming he's free. The barfly has a heart attack and dies after the paladin tells him he's not goody-goody, and I stole his pants with mage hand and threw it on the paladin's face because he was being an asshole again, and the paladin goes and helps everyone else, and then he gets full details on info that I managed to get SOME detail on.

We end up walking into town, and, because the description of this con artist has no physical description other than he's a teifling, I have no idea what I'm looking for. As we walk into town, a teifling beckons me into an alleyway and shadily asks if I want to make some money. I agree, and this is the con I mentioned earlier. I asked for info in exchange for a pay cut, and the tiefling agrees, knowing gfull well the guy I'm looking for is him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 15, 2016, 02:28:20 pm

Ok here is something that drives me a bit crazy about Shadowrun.

Ok Trolls require 50% more living cost then normal characters (or 100% I forget) and for the MOST part this makes sense (sometimes it is a stretch in some scenarios) because you need to eat a lot more, drive bigger cars, wear bigger clothes, and otherwise everything is many times larger then it would be for a human being.

Dwarves however... also have a 50% higher living expense... Which don't get me wrong, I understand this somewhat in that making things smaller can cost more. Special keyboards (except Dwarves have human finger spacing), Special doors (kind of), special chairs (kind of)... But... Dwarves are a LOT more common, leagues more, then people who are 4 feet tall in real life. This stuff doesn't get mass produced too? There is no Big and Tall for Dwarves? This is a future where corperations rule the earth and none of them thought "Hey! The Dwarf market is completely untapped"?

Worse yet while for a Troll... even if he squeezed into a Motel and lived barely able to move around would still get some extra cost (food, clothes, what have you)... What cost is a Dwarf going to squeeze extra by similar accommodations? Dwarves don't even suffer from their stature the same way a Little Person does and always have a full range of movement making them more then capable of maneuvering around oversized furniture as a whole (as sucky as that would be for them).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 15, 2016, 04:10:39 pm

Alcohol.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 15, 2016, 10:17:24 pm

Uh speaking of
This session we're visiting the local Rack, AKA "Club where vampires hang out and feed easily", and our mission is basically to relax and recharge our willpower points in preparation for a big mission.

And all of *us*, players and DM, are kinda getting pretty drunk
So many tangents
So basically it's working well

Spoiler: Creepy ghoul stuff (click to show/hide)

Also my character's ghoul is full-yandere mode.  Which is uncomfortable OOC and IC.  OOC the drinking is helping.  IC, our Ventrue helped by drinking her under the table.  Plus, my character told her to bring some drugs...  And being not of sound mind, eager to impress senpai, she kinda over-complied.

And now those drugs are in Jake's system too, and like woaaah.

Oh also the third floor down is a brothel, but we're not going there.  Good worldbuilding though.

Meanwhile our gangrel is heading to the second floor down, which hosts the fight club.  To get her willpower back (vice: rage).  Apparently... they use their claws??  My Mekhet doesn't understand women or gangrels.

Edit:
Said a silly thing, now it's in my signature :P
Context was...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Feeding on my ghoul, while giving her blood, and getting high on a certain club drug (and lots of alcohol).
My character's (supernaturally heightened) senses kicked into overdrive, but only for positive feelings.
Also, apparEntly this cErtain popular drug EncouragEs romantic fEElings.

Jake is having none of this, but the ghoul is
Basically my friends are joshing me and it's funny XD

What I'm actually trying to do is establish a sensei-deshi relationship.
She is my backup character for when Jake inevitably gets slaughtered by Belial's Brood (Juan).
But it turns out vinculums are a bit more fucked than I was aware.

Also haha I just did my standard "Did you remember X modifier?" thing, which I often do to support other players in a meta way
Except this is WoD, so that meant rerolling the results...  And Kayla ended up getting hit a lot harder despite the wound penalties I pointed out.
Oops lol
But then I pointed out she could probably activate resilience or iron muscles preemptively, so the situation was saved!

HAHA the bouncer (who Kayla just exchanged blows with) asked to know her sire.  Said sire is currently under bloodhunt.  We are definitely doing this good
Edit2:  Just to clarify, Kayla and the bouncer were punching each other

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 16, 2016, 08:16:49 am

So here's my next idea for my campaign: Party's just about done cleaning up some void zombies and should finish off their creators soon too.

What next? Well, zombies gotta come from somewhere right? So they'll obviously find the camp where the ex-living were, y'know, living. Inside the camp, which I'm sure they'll thoroughly loot for anything that's not nailed down, they'll find a sack that moves slightly.

What's inside the sack? A severed head!

Severed head proceeds to beg party not to kill him, promises them big reward for helping him. Explains that he's a lich that was destroyed some time ago, but regrowing his body didn't all go quite according to plan. His various body parts seem to have all spawned in separate locations, and he needs help putting himself back together.

Party can either kill him outright, which I've got a nice CR 3 monster skulleton stat block lined up for, or help him. Should they look about ready to destroy him, he'll bring to their attention that he'll only respawn in a few days, and sooner or later he'll be sure to pay them back for their betrayal. Should they help him, I've got stats for two crawling hands, a skinwraith, a meat puppet and a skeleton, along with a humanoid ectoplasm to glue it all together.

Of course, once they've defeated the separate parts he'll reveal he needs to finish the process with a sacrifice, namely either a virgin's blood, the soul of a good aligned cleric or the horn of a unicorn.

I figure they'll probably just kill the lich while he's a head, but it'll be a great intro for a recurring villain and also an awesome opportunity to spawn some truly awful puns.

"The bandits kept me around for entertainment! We'd play games together, like tether-ball or bowling. I was really good at the first one!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 17, 2016, 09:34:36 am

Session's over, and I severely underestimated my players.

They tried to stuff the head into an iron pot and sell it to the local witch.

Dear god I love them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 17, 2016, 11:44:23 am

Having a bit of trouble with another player last session. Guy helped us beat a boss and we headed back to town after losing the worst party member (who knocked me out and almost killed me until DM Said no PVP (the player isn't an asshole, the character is)) and we deal with some ghouls and see a hint at the final boss.

Paladin, who's a paladin of the ancients, knows full well this character is a child but using disguise self (guy even introduces himself as The Child of Nazaroth) and he attacks the kid right away, despite him showing no hostilities yet. Kid almost insta-kills him and the wizard, but I was far enough away to avoid it, and I loose an arrow that does 16 damage (for a 3rd level arcane trickster, that's not bad) only because I had an action ready to shoot him if he went hostile.

I cast charm person on him, which miraculously succeeded, and he gave us some info before teleporting out. In the meantime, the paladin throws an axe and the kid's ACTUAL body bent in weird ways and reformed, and then he tries to throw another axe and his axe BENDS the kid's neck and it reforms. My character panics and hides and the kid gets away. My character freaks out and storms off, telling the paladin he's not taking this seriously (he really wasn't, and for some reason, he keeps insulting me. Not just my character, but me personally).

I left for a couple minutes to go cook dinner because my mom is crazy, and they went on and the wizard left the party because the player doesn't like being so squishy, and I return to an empty guildhall and then the paladin (and the player too it seemed) just kinda gave up and tried really hard to not only leave the guildhall, but harass my character if he continued.

It literally got to a point he climbs up on a fountain when I get him to do something and he tries to bash my skull against the fountain as he fakes going up there. Like wtf? I did nothing to this character, and he keeps trying to kill, attack or harass him. We end up in a bar and, because my character doesn't like talking to people he doesn't know, gets some info, sits at a tabl and waits for the paladin to do shit. the entire time, he was saying how useless and horrible I am because I'm playing my character and helping him if he needs it with Mage hand. And again, he insulted ME personally, not just my character

Had a stern talking to with him after, but he blamed it on the booze. I'm hoping he doesn't continue to be an asshole... He was pretty cool till this session and then he started making excuses afterwards

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 17, 2016, 09:44:11 pm

Okay so Jake got wasted out of his head, while I was wasted as fuck too, and my character and I went on a magical adventure with the Ventrue to... heist a museum??
I didn't remember this at all until our gangrel's player reminded me, then it flooded back.

The fucking taxi driver (and the other guy riding shotgun) are...  I'm going to guess, fucking hunters.
fuck
...fuck

I mean at least this way Jake doesn't get his soul sucked by some shitty gangrel asshole elder.

But Jake took a quickdraw drugged+boozed shot at the passenger... barely grazed him, and MF didn't flinch... Jake dropped his gun and surrendered.
Ventrue (Amanda, currently Lilith persona) didn't even shoot.

fuuuuuuuck

I don't know if they're hunters but there's basically nobody they could be that would be good.
If Jake's lucky, they're going to request some service.
Otherwise, time to dive through a fricken car window with 1 strength
good fricken luck mon frere

If things go south, I guess I'll be playing as Jake's yandere scientist ghoul, with a strong hunger for VITAE and a fucking taser.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 17, 2016, 09:46:21 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 17, 2016, 09:44:11 pm

The fucking taxi driver (and the other guy riding shotgun) are...  I'm going to guess, fucking hunters.

Hunters, as in "Hunter: The Vigil" kind of hunters?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on June 17, 2016, 09:49:30 pm

Since they're doing World of Darkness and all those games are sort of interconnected, I'd assume so. I can't remember if it was Old or New world of darkness though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 17, 2016, 09:54:53 pm

Mm-hm!
And this is NWoD, but not Strix Chronicles.

I assume they're hunters.  I was blasted, Jake was blasted, Amanda's player had to leave even earlier than I passed out.

In our defense, this was a session about regaining willpower through vice.  And Jake's vice is gluttony.

But yeah these fucks are probably hunters, fuuuuuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on June 18, 2016, 12:16:04 am

Seriously, why don't people here GM WoD games? >_>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 18, 2016, 12:20:20 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 18, 2016, 12:16:04 am

Seriously, why don't people here GM WoD games? >_>

Because no GM wants to keep up with all the scheming, rules, and fishmalks.
I eat up whatever WoD material I can find because I like the setting, but odds are I'm not touching a game any time soon for a few reasons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 18, 2016, 01:08:49 am

Same with shadowrun. It seems not many people want to run it. I tried getting a group together, but we got nothing but players and a GM who didn't know what he was doing.

Its sad, really

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 01:17:44 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 18, 2016, 01:08:49 am

Same with shadowrun. It seems not many people want to run it. I tried getting a group together, but we got nothing but players and a GM who didn't know what he was doing.

Its sad, really

Which is odd because Shadowrun is really simple at heart.

It just throws a LOT of backstory and stuff at you... But you can honestly toss the majority of it out and be perfectly fine as it doesn't affect much.

Shadowrun is best played in an episodic run by run gameplay with the characters being the main source of story rather than the runs themselves.

The key though is that for Shadowrun you should plan for your players to get most of the information, and possible gear, they should need for a Run. Blueprints, guards, guard routes, access codes, defenses, what have you should all be available somewhere. HECK even the police response time...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 18, 2016, 01:50:40 am

It seems to me (based on comments here and elsewhere on the forum) that most Bay12ers want a solid mix of crunch and freeform, so both WoD (being extremely freeform) and Shadowrun (being very crunch) are a bit too extreme for most.  Likely similar to the reason no one plays RIFTS or other Palladium titles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 01:55:40 am

Or heck why no one plays BattleTech

Or as it is better known as: The Greatest RPG I will never play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 18, 2016, 02:08:04 am

Ehh, a bit of Battletech's problem is that it can very quickly become an expensive hobby (right about the time that players decide they need the nice pewter 'mechs instead of cutouts.)  And making maps is serious overhead for people who just want to game on the weekends or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 02:11:47 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 18, 2016, 02:08:04 am

Ehh, a bit of Battletech's problem is that it can very quickly become an expensive hobby (right about the time that players decide they need the nice pewter 'mechs instead of cutouts.)  And making maps is serious overhead for people who just want to game on the weekends or something.

Battletech isn't Warhammer unless you make it so through anal retentive douche baggery.

NO ONE I know of who uses mats and mech pieces bothers ensuring that they are the actual factual mechs.

Besides this is the RPG I am referring to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 18, 2016, 02:13:45 am

Only RPG set in the Inner Sphere I know of is MechWarrior, and I have never actually met anyone who played it, ever.  I blame D6 mechanics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 18, 2016, 03:51:19 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 18, 2016, 12:16:04 am

Seriously, why don't people here GM WoD games? >_>

They do every now and then. There's two kinds.

First, the play-by-post kind that runs for 1-5 updates and immediately collapses under its own prose.

Second, somewhat rarer actual ones, of which the only one I've personally witnessed is Fniff's rather splendid 19th century Ireland game.

Beyond that you could always start your own. I'd be into more WoD at the very least, and rules-light stuff tends to be relatively simple to GM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 18, 2016, 08:03:10 am

I'd give WoD another shot if I didn't have to vomit hours of plot and meta-plot built into the game to new players before we even do character gen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 18, 2016, 08:18:57 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on June 18, 2016, 08:03:10 am

I'd give WoD another shot if I didn't have to vomit hours of plot and meta-plot built into the game to new players before we even do character gen.

The metaplot is kind of shit and irrelevant for the most part, though. The World of Darkness is at its best when it focuses on the small, local and familiar. The further away from that you go the further you get from the juxtaposition of the mundane and fantastical that makes it interesting.

Besides, not like there's any reason for new players to even know any of that if you go with the standard "freshly made" character background.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on June 18, 2016, 09:02:52 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 18, 2016, 03:51:19 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 18, 2016, 12:16:04 am

Seriously, why don't people here GM WoD games? >_>

They do every now and then. There's two kinds.

First, the play-by-post kind that runs for 1-5 updates and immediately collapses under its own prose.

Second, somewhat rarer actual ones, of which the only one I've personally witnessed is Fniff's rather splendid 19th century Ireland game.

Beyond that you could always start your own. I'd be into more WoD at the very least, and rules-light stuff tends to be relatively simple to GM.

Firstly, I've never GM'd anything. Secondly, I have absolutely no experience with WoD (unless Vampire the Masquerades: Bloodlines counts).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 18, 2016, 11:07:30 am

World of Darkness is a good place to start if you want to try your hand at GMing something. It's freeform enough that you can improvise wildly and still come away with something playable. Maybe look through Genius: The Transgression (https://sites.google.com/site/moochava/genius), that's completely free. It kind of needs a little knowledge of the WoD system to get into, but most of that you can improvise from basic research.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 18, 2016, 03:00:44 pm

I agree with Harry, WoD is a great 'starter' game for GMs (storytellers in WoD), it has a stupendous amount of flexibility and is primarily story driven.  I don't know if the current iteration keeps the D10 mechanics or not, but I recall them being very simple and quite easy to use (too simple for my taste.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 18, 2016, 03:07:43 pm

Going to be 100% honest and say that if we ran Genius: The Transgression on the forum I wouldn't hesitate to join.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 03:16:28 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on June 18, 2016, 03:07:43 pm

Going to be 100% honest and say that if we ran Genius: The Transgression on the forum I wouldn't hesitate to join.

It would probably break down as EVERYONE would want to play Rick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on June 18, 2016, 03:17:40 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 18, 2016, 03:16:28 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on June 18, 2016, 03:07:43 pm

Going to be 100% honest and say that if we ran Genius: The Transgression on the forum I wouldn't hesitate to join.

It would probably break down as EVERYONE would want to play Rick.

Then they get put into the same bin as the fishmalks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2016, 04:38:46 am

One unusual thing about the Shadowrun series is how the payment system functions.

Basically the tougher a mission is, hypothetically the more it is worth doing (both Karma wise and Money wise) and it works perfectly... at lower levels.

It gets really interesting so lets say your robbing someone's house and they have middling bodyguards without much or any cyberware at all. You can expect about 9000 dollars (nuyen), a little on the low side but your a shadowrunner and can probably meat it out rather easily.

But lets crank it all the way to the other side and have you storm the police headquarters of New York where there will definitely be Cybernetic cops and Magic Cops... It is a near suicidal mission for even extremely experienced and decked out Shadowrunners and even if they survive there is a large chance they will be on America's Most wanted: $24,000 dollars.

Which is honestly nothing and I can't think of any logical shadowrunner who would take high end jobs at the prices they pay out. (though usually High end shadowrunners earn money... in other ways)... And in fact they don't to my knowledge, stories where Shadowrunners take jobs THAT difficult or dangerous tend to be paid a lot more.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 23, 2016, 06:46:20 am

You're assuming Shadowrunners have a choice. You get a dragon telling you you're going to do a job or else, you damned well do the job and screw the consequences.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on June 23, 2016, 03:11:11 pm

I have a confession to make.

I had to find a new place to live, and somehow I've managed to lose my campaign notes.  My party isn't meeting for 2 more days so I have some more time to find them, and worst comes to worst I think I can reconstruct enough to get through an evening, but I feel like a really crappy GM.  Argh moving. >:(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 23, 2016, 04:28:46 pm

Noooooo!
*hugpats*
It'll be all right.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 23, 2016, 04:31:14 pm

Quote from: Ghills on June 23, 2016, 03:11:11 pm

I have a confession to make.

I had to find a new place to live, and somehow I've managed to lose my campaign notes.  My party isn't meeting for 2 more days so I have some more time to find them, and worst comes to worst I think I can reconstruct enough to get through an evening, but I feel like a really crappy GM.  Argh moving. >:(

Tell your group and find out what they remember beforehand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 23, 2016, 04:34:31 pm

Another thing you can do is a stall plot (disguised as a twist)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on June 23, 2016, 05:02:32 pm

Yeah, I keep all my notes backed up online, since I often will get some prep work done during my breaks at work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 23, 2016, 06:20:49 pm

Yeah some sort of random encounter that spirals into a sidequest, maybe.  That sucks though...

Fakedit:  I tried to summarize concisely, and instead wrote a mostly-complete description again.  I'm okay with this.

Last session, our ventrue and my mekhet and my ghoul were captured by a couple of hunters, one of whom was definitely Blade.  We were extraordinarily inebriated and also on some drugs.  It was *supposed* to be a safe party place for vampires, but we did make a bit of a scene.
(The ventrue-malkavian, thinking herself to be an ancient Babylonian named Lilith, wrote those character in blood using 6 people as canvases)

I just can't be concise, can I?
So I'll warn, this session was especially sober and chilling.  I won't even share everything that happened, because some of it was pretty fucked up.  (And while I was sober then, I am not now.)

We surrendered and were taken as hostages in the hunter base.  (Not the one we slaughtered earlier, a different one).  Kayla (psycho gangrel) wasn't with us, which kinda sucked for her player.  Basically sat things out until the later hours.

They tortured us, frankly.  But first they took my ghoul aside, Alex, to... rehabilitate.  She tried to bluff and lie, but she was too new to all this. 

They brought her to a room full of other ghouls, all bound to gurneys.  Damn them, they were actually saving ghouls.  Understand that the hunters are largely psychopathic killers, but they were spending a *lot* of resources on this.  Probably recruiting most survivors, but still.  Everyone is grey in WoD.

Ghouls are addicted to vampire blood like a supernatural drug.  And as thralls, they are supernaturally in love with their "regnants".  Two of the ghouls were straining against their bindings, desperate to find their "love".  The rest were writhing in the throes of serious detox.

Once the orderlies left, one of the ghouls... got free of his restraints.  It wasn't pretty.  At the time I assumed he was just jonesying for blood, but I'm not sure.  His (gangrel?) regnant had died, he had felt it deeply.  He freed Alex so she could lead him to, well, us.  He wanted vampire blood, sure, but I think mostly he just wanted blood.  And gore.
Particularly considering what he did to- no, I'm going to skip ahead.

...
Alex was a clubgoing labtech, she had no idea how to use a shiv.  Or a gun.  And yet she had to...  Terrified and in shock, all she knew was she had to find Jake.  Particularly once her ghoul "friend" collapsed in gore, whispering a final curse to the last hunter guard.  Who also fell, bleeding profusely, but still alive.  Begging Alex to reconsider, offering a way out of this nightmare.  Crawling towards her, grabbing her.
The gun kept going "click click click".

Uh, right.  Sorry, it was just... yeah.

Anyway, Alex rescued Ventrue Amanda - currently "Frankie", a mafia hitman.  _{seven humanity}
Frankie had been under interrogation with a red-hot poker...  Well, at first.  When Alex arrived he/she was staring into space, describing hot dogs and girls and icy cold days, as the interrogator lay whimpering on a ball on the floor.
~malkavians~
(the player did an awesome job at monologuing, at considerable length, a seemingly innocuous description of Frankie's supposed life)

Together they rescued Jake, who...
Jake was alone in his cell, staring at a revolver with a single bullet.  Large crispy holes in his torso and arm, but no blood in the room.
I could say more, but not just now.

Things proceeded quickly from there.  Jake gave Alex some blood to heal her bruises and anemia (I skipped over some of what the bastards did to "rehabilitate" her).  Since it was still morning (Jake was only awake through force of will) we needed to enlist the other ghouls.  Alex lead the way.

Except, first, we checked out the other two cells.  One had a mute vampire who signaled a willingness to help.  The other...  A sound of crashing, growling, and banging was all we could make out.
So IC we had to assume it was Kayla lol, our gangrel

Still, we were very aware that a frenzying vampire will kill friends.  So Alex lead Amanda and the vampire down the hall, back to the ghouls.  Jake stayed behind, caaarefully opened the final of THREE maglocks, and fled into the shadows at a dead run.
"Do you look behind you? It'll-" "NO" "It'll uh, take an action..." "No I keep running".

It wasn't Kayla
If you know WoD, you can guess what it was.
And it's not like fucking Twilight.

We reached the ghoul rehabilitation room as alarm klaxons resounded through the base.  And screams, and gunfire, and primal roaring. 
We freed the ghouls and fed them (they were so hungry).  Jake gave an inspiring speech, promising them blood and a return to their loved ones (IE their vampires).  "There will be blood!"  This was met with a roar.  ... From outside the room (I was actually confused for a moment, heh). 

But no, it had seen Jake's "tear in reality".  Which was tiny, Jake still only has 1 blood potency and is mostly humane, but the RNGoddess was grinning.

The ghouls shoved gurneys against the door as Jake and Amanda desperately searched for anything useful.  Mostly looking for silver, or drugs, or anything...  The RNG gave Jake an extraordinary success.  With his trained auspex-senses, he found a way out.  A hole in the floor hidden behind some things.

But how deep was it?  We weren't sure.  So, uh
Amanda found a ghoul, a teenager who claimed his girlfriend's powers let him survive things.  She fed him a generous amount of blood and, uh, he jumped into the hole.
...
...
......crunch

~~7 humanity~~
and yes she made the morality roll again (helped that he volunteered, ghoul-insanity aside)

So we tied sheets together and made a rope.
The ghouls made it down fine, us vampires fell lol.  We're both unathletic as all hell.
Which actually knocked Amanda into torpor.  Jake *barely* held on.  The ghouls picked Amanda up and together we hurried down the tunnel...  The gunshots had stopped, and there was grinding and howling from up above.

Turns out the teen-ghoul survived, he was just barely conscious.  We took him with us, escaping into... ugh, the sewers.  Turns out the Nosferatu (who fancy Mekhet Jake kinda despises, but tries to play nice with) had been monitoring this hunter base for a while via tunnel.

They knew about the ghouls, but didn't care.  They even knew some vampires were stupid enough to get caught, and didn't care.
But to be fair, they did let Jake finally sleep the day away (in their maggot-ridden trash pile).
And helpfully hinted that Jake should kill the "extra" ghouls, as demanded by Camarilla law.
yeah...

But yeah, we escaped the hunter base.  Yaaaay~

Then Kayla did some freaky shit that I can't even begin to describe properly.  She already *did* the hornet thing, this went even farther.  It was getting early in the morning in real time, too.  Basically... well, there was a bit of a standoff at our haven afterwards, and it sorta looked like this:
TL;DR http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/03/19/episode-1107-heartfelt-reunion/
except instead of her sire Juan (the pirate) being there, Jake's high-humanity sire was.  So Jake and his sire kinda just left, along with ghoul-Alex and Amanda's unconscious body.

After cleaning up a trail of sewage, that is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on June 24, 2016, 12:09:12 am

So, I feel ready to describe Jake's interrogation.
Jake is a Mekhet, a... "shadow vampire".
Fire and the sun burn much deeper than for other clans.  It's a clan of secrecy, and secrets, and the preservation of both.
And to explain their weakness, a clan of shame and hiding.  Vulnerable to the light of truth.

Jake's interrogator is not a bad person.  It's a war.
"Who made you like this?"
"A good man."
He shot Jake in the chest with a phosphorous round, which burned a large crispy hole.  The beast cried out within Jake, but he held it back...  But betrayed his sire, just a little.  "Mike!  That's all I know."

... "Where does he sleep."
The beast wasn't listening.  It was Jake's human self that raged coldly at this.
"Fuck.  You."
And then the beast recoiled again as fire burned in Jake's shoulder.

Jake begged, and threatened, but in the end he had to give the interrogator something.  Jake is a coward, and there were things he *wanted* to give...

He didn't betray his sire further.  But he did explain how to reach the Prince's office.  Yeah, that may come back to bite him, but the Prince is WEAK.  His forces have utterly failed to find the Juan, the monstrosity who is likely going to chew up and digest Jake's soul.
Also he exiled Jake's sire, Mike, from downtown over some elder feud.  So, fuck that guy.
Though mainly Jake tried to focus on giving intel on Juan.  The real threat.
Yeah the hunters are monsters, fighting us Camarilla vampire monsters, but Juan and the Brood represent something FAR worse.

In the end, he didn't betray Mike's haven. 
He did admit his own sins, though.  "Only" three dead, directly.  The first was an innocent, and his only sincere regret.  Another was a combatant drunk.  And finally a hunter at the previous base.
"He was a person."
"...It's a war, you know that."
"His NAME was ANDREW.  He had a wife!  And a brother!"
"Andrew.  ..."  To apologize would have been meaningless bullshit.
"...After 25 days you're already this far gone.  That's what I wanted to know."
The hunter removed the magazine from his pistol and set it on the table.  One in the chamber.
"If there's any shred of humanity left in you, you know what to do."

... An hour or so later, Alex rescued him.  Covered in bruises and blood, mostly her own.

Jake is saving this bullet for their next meeting.
This hunter is not a bad person.  But he'll answer for what happened to Alex.
As will Jake.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on June 24, 2016, 11:14:06 am

Thanks for the encouragement!  Yeah, if I can't find my notes by tonight we're going on a sidetrip to ghouls in Firgatn Moor (there is also a volcano named Mt Hote - I love naming things), but I still hate that this happened.  3 boxes to unpack before I give up!

I do have the 'this is what we did' sheet I gave to my players last session, so I can at least figure out some of what's going on.  I had maps and props that I'll really miss, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 25, 2016, 04:13:48 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on June 23, 2016, 06:46:20 am

You're assuming Shadowrunners have a choice. You get a dragon telling you you're going to do a job or else, you damned well do the job and screw the consequences.

If it's a Mr Johnson, generally, turning down a job isn't as bad as getting caked up to Sadr Kruup (I butchered that) HQ and getting the job right from one of the higher ups. I doubt, in any case, the dragons themselves would offer it. They're usually too busy being a dragon to worry about stuff like that...

Just a thought, would anyone want to run a shadowrun game at all, even if it's a one off to just show how the game is played? I have almost all of the books for the previous edition, and I really wanted to try it, but the only person who would have been able to show me anything stopped being my friend when he did something I'm not willing to repeat...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on June 25, 2016, 04:15:47 pm

I played my first in-person, first as-player session of a TRPG (Pathfinder). it was quite fun. I threatened to cast Acid Spray on an ally twice and Empowered Fireballed an ally that was being grappled by a black tentacle beast.

It was a mostly Evil party with one Lawful Good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on June 25, 2016, 04:23:43 pm

Asking here because I can't be bothered to dig up the Tabletop Games thread (and they usually seem to be focused on non-D&D/Pathfinder games anyway.)

I'm going to start up a Pathfinder PbP game here for the first time, and my first tabletop game play-by-post in quite a while; I've taken the time to see what went wrong with most of my other games (mostly a paper-thin plot and running about a thousand games at once giving me no motivation to advance the game), and I've put a lot of thought into this one to avoid those mistakes.

But anyway, my question is: I've taken inspiration from fiction set in the late 1800s, and the setting I've written is probably best described as steampunk, except with magic instead of steam with magic on the side. Because of this setting, I need to know; do the Advanced Firearms rules shatter the balance? I can see that they shift the balance toward guns to some degree, but I can't quite tell how much. I honestly don't mind it if the players ditch swords for guns--it makes sense in such a setting, after all--but I want to know to what degree they'll replace the more traditional weapons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 25, 2016, 05:43:11 pm

I can't speak for Pathfinder, but in 3rd and 3.5 firearms were positively overwhelming, only high-level magic outperformed them.  So (unless Pathfinder handles it differently) firearms will probably be the staple weapons of the setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 25, 2016, 06:53:56 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 25, 2016, 05:43:11 pm

I can't speak for Pathfinder, but in 3rd and 3.5 firearms were positively overwhelming, only high-level magic outperformed them.  So (unless Pathfinder handles it differently) firearms will probably be the staple weapons of the setting.

They're really good. The only reason why my vigilante uses swords is a story reason. Even then, he has revolvers.

They effect touch AC until the fifth range increment for advanced firearms, and I think the first range increment with early. They're nasty with that x4 crit too, and having improved critical for a specific type, they're nasty...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on June 25, 2016, 07:11:12 pm

Alright, I kinda figured as such. Thanks!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 25, 2016, 11:00:20 pm

Quote from: Tawa on June 25, 2016, 04:23:43 pm

Asking here because I can't be bothered to dig up the Tabletop Games thread (and they usually seem to be focused on non-D&D/Pathfinder games anyway.)

I'm going to start up a Pathfinder PbP game here for the first time, and my first tabletop game play-by-post in quite a while; I've taken the time to see what went wrong with most of my other games (mostly a paper-thin plot and running about a thousand games at once giving me no motivation to advance the game), and I've put a lot of thought into this one to avoid those mistakes.

But anyway, my question is: I've taken inspiration from fiction set in the late 1800s, and the setting I've written is probably best described as steampunk, except with magic instead of steam with magic on the side. Because of this setting, I need to know; do the Advanced Firearms rules shatter the balance? I can see that they shift the balance toward guns to some degree, but I can't quite tell how much. I honestly don't mind it if the players ditch swords for guns--it makes sense in such a setting, after all--but I want to know to what degree they'll replace the more traditional weapons.

Ooooooh boy.  This looks fun.  </nonrelevant>
I have no idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 25, 2016, 11:12:24 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on June 25, 2016, 04:13:48 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on June 23, 2016, 06:46:20 am

You're assuming Shadowrunners have a choice. You get a dragon telling you you're going to do a job or else, you damned well do the job and screw the consequences.

If it's a Mr Johnson, generally, turning down a job isn't as bad as getting caked up to Sadr Kruup (I butchered that) HQ and getting the job right from one of the higher ups. I doubt, in any case, the dragons themselves would offer it. They're usually too busy being a dragon to worry about stuff like that...

Just a thought, would anyone want to run a shadowrun game at all, even if it's a one off to just show how the game is played? I have almost all of the books for the previous edition, and I really wanted to try it, but the only person who would have been able to show me anything stopped being my friend when he did something I'm not willing to repeat...

Bumping this because its already starting to get lost in the D&D talks (and it will get swallowed by the WOD people before sunrise my time...). I really do want to at least try and see if we can get a one off to get going. I know people are interested in PLAYING, but not many people know how to run it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 25, 2016, 11:14:16 pm

I've never done Shadowrun, and I don't own any of the books, so I won't be handling it.  I believe that a while ago Girlinhat was interested in running a forum Shadowrun campaign for beginners, but I have no idea what happened to that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 25, 2016, 11:24:37 pm

Shadowrun sounds really cool.

If you do start a thing, I'm interested, although I would be a complete n00b.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2016, 11:57:03 pm

I know a bit of 5th edition, but that's about it.

We were going to try it in my Pathfinder group, but no-one really wanted to GM it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 26, 2016, 01:57:57 am

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on June 25, 2016, 11:24:37 pm

Shadowrun sounds really cool.

If you do start a thing, I'm interested, although I would be a complete n00b.

Join the club.

I tried making a character and I ended up making a drug addict Technomancer who carries a pair of... Either machine pistols or some sort of light SMG that he dual wielded with a shotgun that he hardly used, and he always hoped to god he hit something. He was hooked on BTLs (ironically), lives in a little better than dingy apartment, and his safehouse was a cellar on his ex's property. Guy had some decent stats, but other than his gear, most of his money was devoted to buying BTLs (I literally got the minimum for things I needed and bought as many BTLs as I could. Needless to say, I bought a lot), since he was REALLY hooked on them. He also pissed off a few dealers because he's USUALLY broke, so he had a few enemies right off the bat...

Never got to use him and I'm pretty sure I lost the sheet

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on June 26, 2016, 02:23:26 am

And I'd love to run it... But I still swore myself I'd never run a game again (For good reason)

Though I can see why people might not want to run it though. It does require a bit more prep then say dungeons and dragons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 26, 2016, 02:31:22 am

Well, even with variations for style, generally running Shadowrun would count as college-thesis level prep.  As compared to a few hours for most dungeons to a week or so for a very complex political arc in D&D.  Still slightly less overhead than RIFTS, unless you're like me and throw out most of the rules and rebuild it into something sane, can't do that with Shadowrun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on June 26, 2016, 02:46:57 am

Shadow run fascinates me, but I don't have any of the rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 26, 2016, 03:09:12 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 26, 2016, 01:57:57 am

I tried making a character and I ended up making a drug addict Technomancer who carries a pair of... Either machine pistols or some sort of light SMG that he dual wielded with a shotgun that he hardly used, and he always hoped to god he hit something. He was hooked on BTLs (ironically), lives in a little better than dingy apartment, and his safehouse was a cellar on his ex's property. Guy had some decent stats, but other than his gear, most of his money was devoted to buying BTLs (I literally got the minimum for things I needed and bought as many BTLs as I could. Needless to say, I bought a lot), since he was REALLY hooked on them. He also pissed off a few dealers because he's USUALLY broke, so he had a few enemies right off the bat...

Never got to use him and I'm pretty sure I lost the sheet

Ah, reminds me of my only Shadowrun game (5th edition if I recall correctly). Played a street samurai with augmented muscles, a combat axe and a lot of edge, ran him like a more stoned version of the Biker from Hotline Miami (with even better results). Those were good times.

Shadowrun is really fun. I'd certainly love to play again if someone runs a game in a good timeslot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on June 26, 2016, 07:34:01 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 26, 2016, 03:09:12 am

Quote from: highmax28 on June 26, 2016, 01:57:57 am

I tried making a character and I ended up making a drug addict Technomancer who carries a pair of... Either machine pistols or some sort of light SMG that he dual wielded with a shotgun that he hardly used, and he always hoped to god he hit something. He was hooked on BTLs (ironically), lives in a little better than dingy apartment, and his safehouse was a cellar on his ex's property. Guy had some decent stats, but other than his gear, most of his money was devoted to buying BTLs (I literally got the minimum for things I needed and bought as many BTLs as I could. Needless to say, I bought a lot), since he was REALLY hooked on them. He also pissed off a few dealers because he's USUALLY broke, so he had a few enemies right off the bat...

Never got to use him and I'm pretty sure I lost the sheet

Ah, reminds me of my only Shadowrun game (5th edition if I recall correctly). Played a street samurai with augmented muscles, a combat axe and a lot of edge, ran him like a more stoned version of the Biker from Hotline Miami (with even better results). Those were good times.

Shadowrun is really fun. I'd certainly love to play again if someone runs a game in a good timeslot.

It's pretty impressive if you were a more stoned version of biker. He's already on acid or something in the first with the funky colors and he's plastered in the second game when you meet him

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 01, 2016, 09:30:54 pm

Vampire Game

We as players had a good time.
We were worried about one of our characters maybe, at least I was.
But it turns out that character ate Juan, the elder Gangrel holding us hostage.
ate his HEART and SOUL as only a vampire can do, and only to another vampire

so yeah our coterie is okay
My character and our ventrue stayed somewhere else for about a week.  She was in torpor, my character was desperately studying under his mentor, hoping to avoid the slide into monstrosity.

But then we found out that everything was fine.  Juan was dead.  Kayla did it.  She smiled her way through the ensuing interrogation, successfully

Jake knows what she is but couldn't give less of a shit.  The Camarilla, the Prince, they're shit.  He's far more scared of the nosferatu.

Belial's Brood still demands a certain favor, and Kayla is on their side...  It's impossible, but she welcomed us back to our haven.  She is okay with us as tools.
This is friendship for vampires.

Jake made an INTSEC mistake and we had to visit a nearby cellphone tower.  We fought Sanic.  He went fast.
We had fucking shotguns, but he moved really fast.

We did manage to win, in the end.  And we've all gone home as vampire-friends.
Again, that means "useful".
Except that our social vampire fell into torpor again.  And instead of letting her sleep in nightmares, Kayla (with my OOC suggestion) fed her VITAE to wake her up.

Our social vamp is now somewhat infatuated with our monster.  Nothing can go wrong.

It's only fair, really, Kayla's blood potency is far higher than Jake or Amanda's.
due to all the diablery
Which, also, the Prince looked into...  and it's okay.
Because she diablerized her sire, Juan (probably.  He's definitely dead).

Diablery leaves a mark on a vampire's soul of disgusting, pulsing veins.  Anyone with auspex can see it.  It's a lethal taboo.
But she killed her sire, who was the target of a blood hunt, and uniquely a valid target for diablery.  So she has an excuse, and nobody (except Jake) knows that she diablerized several other unkosher targets.

So yeah.  The gang's all together, Kayla is actually more in control (due to unspeakable a hornet demon), and we took down a camarilla mekhet guarding a cell phone tower.

Everything's fiiiiine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 01, 2016, 11:10:29 pm

Really starting to hate this player. He's obnoxious, loud, and he tries to break the flow of the game by interrupting everyone. I yelled at him when I was trying to say something to his character and he wouldn't let me talk. Mind you, that thing was my character reacting to his character being a dumbass and sending the BBG into the abyss where the BBG WANTED to go, when he clearly saw me trying to snap his neck since the BBG sees me as a friend. I proceed to yell at him as a player and then him as a character. The DM tried to defuse the situation by saying "weeellll... he didn't know the kid wanted to go there" when the kid clearly said he was going to go there to do an experiment.

Anyway, session started out with us continuing through the zombie infested castle, and we end up having the DM pretty much try and kill off a character who's player quit, and then my character, who's not normally the hero type, decides that he's lost too many allies, and he would like to keep them alive and not have to deal with more recruitment drive missions. He ends up having one ally distract the skeletons (all 8 of them) and they enter another room. I swan dive in with a rope attached to me and my allies holding on to the rope and I proceed to grab onto the party member who's downed. Pulling me up, one of the skeletons sees me and throws his sword to try and cut the rope. He missed, to my luck, and we got the party member out. I proceed to force a healing potion down her throat and we continue on. I get a fantastically stupid idea since we now ahve a party alchemist, and I ask them to grind up some bone meal. I put them in empty bottles of healing potions and put some lantern oil in them and I made my own version of a small firebomb. We find ourselves soon dealing with a door that is about to be opened and a squad of skeletons to greet us, so I set up my new firebomb, and the skeletons pour in. I fire my fire arrow and my shot connects, and I set the skeletons on fire and burned their front line. We deal with them and I continue to be flawless.

We take a long rest and we find outselves down a trapdoor and facing the final boss. The one guy proceeds to try and befriend him (I shouldmention this is his thing as a player; he tries to deal with the bosses non-violently. So much so, he backstabbed the party and TPK the party because the mob boss put up a better argument for putting crime into the world than the party doing judgement on him for robbing and murdering people. This time, he sells out the party halfling and convinces the man the halfling is his wife. The man proceeds to do random mutterings after questioning the halfling, and then he tries to kill the bard. Meanwhile, I'm hiding under a tarp and I use minor illusion to scare him as the tarp looks to be on fire and I emerge, using disgusie self, to look like Asmodeus. Then, the man shouts in a similar voice that I used to sound like what I think Asmodeus sounds like, SPEAKS BACK TO ME SAYING THAT I AM AN IMPOSTER AND HE WILL KILL ME FOR SUCH BLASPHEMY. I freak out, and he proceeds to stab the fighter (the dumbass) out of random madness. We then proceed to fight the guy. He's got 20AC and he hits like a truck. Eventually, everyone except me is surrouding him, and I set fire to his work by launching a fire arrow at his worktable. He lowers his blades and he stands there watching. We think we broke him and snapped him out of his madness, but NOPE. Fucker LEAPS ACROSS THE ROOM AND ROUNDHOUSE KICKS ME, KNOCKING ME TO 6 HP FROM FULL (although 16hp for level 3 rogue is awful...). I panic and the party member the DM is trying to kill off drinks an unknown potion, leaps across the room too and stabs him with her rapier, and my plan to distract him turned out to anger and mutate him so his AC dropped. I disnegage on my turn after the party flanks him and I take a shot. Everyone is at low HP and I need to end this quickly.

NAT. FUCKING. 20.

I deal 20+ damage with one arrow and have my arrow go straight trough his helmet, as I say "See you in the abyss". He explodes in light and, the DM proceeds to tell us that the fire spread rather quickly and the building is catching. Right when this happens, he pulls a "rocks fall, everyone dies" but does it to kill the character he's been trying to kill this whole time. I end up getting her backpack in a hurry as we proceed to freak out and search for valuables before the place collapses. We find a suit of armor that resembled the bosses' but its damaged. We find out the fire is spreading even more, and the others start grabbing some of the valuable paintings and such as I run down to the wine room to grab as much alcohol as I can, since its 300 years old. I stuff 16 into one of my two backpacks I'm carrying and the room catches fire quickly and I crash out of the window after screaming at the party to get out of the building as I pull an action hero as the room explodes behind me. Being half human half drow, I needlessly pointed out that I was much blacker than I started out as.

We make it out of the building and we proceed to leave the wreck behind. We make our way back to town, and we find it deserted. We hear screaming and make our way towards it to find the Child of Nazaroth again (the BBG) and he's got a big ass portal behind him. I proceed to talk to him, since earlier he deemed me as a friend, as he explains how he sacrificed everyone in town to make this portal appear, and he's going in to do some experiments. I proceed to sneak up behind the child, grab him and I mention that we're both going to meet in the abyss soon and I attempt to snap his neck. Because I have a pitifully low athletics score, I end up making a fool of myself and making the kid think I'm a freak. The fighter, who is asking stupid questions (such as "is there anything of value in the abyss?" and I managed to convince him there was everything he ever dreamed of being in there, because I'm sick of his character and the player) proceeds to see this kid is the bad guy and kicks him into the abyss, with the child laughing as he falls and me screaming "NO! STOP!" but being too late. The portal closes and we have to deal with A FUCKING BONE NAGA. The bard tells us that we can run, but my rogue, Geth, has had it with running away. He may hide and strike in the shadows, but he is NOT going to run away again. I throw a flask of oil on the Naga and tell the others to light him up, and the warlock casts burning hands on the monster. The naga then paralyzes me and tries to drag me away, but the bard manages to cleave the naga apart and free me.

I proceed to start yelling at the fighter when the portal reopens and we're hanging on for our dear lives. The paladin is next to me, and the bard (Disparel) manages to get up and helps the halfing who's near him. I proceed to try and climb up and get some progress while the fighter (who's stupidly named Pringler Yugi by a stupid player) fumbles his roll. I proceed to throw a rope to him in hopes of saving him, but Geth is not strong. He starts screaming at the fighter in his fury and desperation, saying "I'd let the abyss take you, but I want to kill you myself!" and so on. Every time I make a roll to climb up, I mention that if I fail, I will let go of the rope instead of falling.

Just my luck, I fail and he drops, cursing me for letting go. Disparel gets the halfling out and I fail to hold on again, and I, with my deftness, quickly swing my crowbar from my bag out and hook myself on to the edge of the portal. We hear the child counting down from the abyss.

"SIX."

I proceed to shout at the fighter to tie the rope to himself. He does so. Disparel and the halfling help me out and I swing out of the abyss and load an arrow into the heavy crossbow I have in hopes of using it in place of bolts. The child shouts out from the abyss again.

"FIVE."

I race to the other side of the portal and use my string to lower the crossbow to him. He fumbles the roll and falls down more into the portal, still holding on for dear life and is barely able to stop himself from falling deeper in. The crossbow flings itself back up (by DM powers) with a "return to sender" note on it.

"FOUR."

The fighter shoots the arrow towards us and we catch the roep and start pulling him out.

"THREE."

We keep pulling him out. He's 20ft below the edge.

"TWO."

He's at the edge of the portal, but no one can get him up yet because he's quite heavy (and we suck at our rolls)

"ONE."

We get him up finally and we breathe a sigh of relief.

"ZERO."

The DM stops the background music for a moment. Silence. And then the portal grows in size, and we start falling in again. I fail enough that I fall back in, but I grab on to the fighter, and the halfling is grabbing on to the edge for dear life and Disparel leaps back and manages to hold us in place for a turn while he casts enhance ability (bull's strength) on the halfling.

"SIX."

The halfling pulls herself out and grabs the rope. We don't get anywhere in the portal trying to drop us into the abyss.

"FIVE."

They manage to pull the fighter up from 30ft to 5ft. I hang on for my dear life as I slip and I'm stuck on his ankle now.

"FOUR."

The fighter gets pulled out and I swing myself from his leg to the ledge. I'm hanging on for my dear life but this time, I'm not relying on a dumbass who continues to hate my character.

"THREE."

Disparel pulls me out and we book it, save for Pringler, who wants to see how big the portal can be.

"TWO, ONE, FUCK YOU, ZERO."

The portal rips open almost enough to grab him again and he keeps hanging near the edge and then the child counts from 3. Pringler continues to do that thing until the DM just gets rid of the portal, and the fighter claims he did it all himself. I proceed to try and kick him in the balls, but the DM says "NO PVP" and prevents me from doing so. I then proceed to say how much of an idiot he is and the player starts talknig about something random and I, now so fed up with him, I YELL AT HIM TO SHUT UP AND LISTEN AND NOT INTERRUPT ME WHEN I'M TRYING TO SAY SOMETHING. Said he shouldn't have kicked the kid in because that was what he wanted, and the DM tries to sjpport the fighter's decision and I get fed up, and say we should call it.

Overall, if not including that dumb shit, pretty good and entertaining. We leveled up to level 4, and instead of getting +1 to con and strength that I really needed, I decided to take sharpshooter as a feat. Considering I'm always sneaking, I'll be glad to have it and skulker later on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on July 01, 2016, 11:32:50 pm

Has anyone ran/played Pokemon Tabletop United? How is it? I kinda want to do a pokemon game...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: birdy51 on July 02, 2016, 12:09:43 am

I can provide insight here. I'll throw down a quick pros and cons list.

Pros
- Most, if not all Pokémon are viable and to some extent unique. Given some love, even Bidoof can shine.
- A wide variety of trainer archetypes are available to play as, mostly in the vein of Trainer Archetypes, Support/Crafter Archetypes, and Direct Combat Archetypes. If you really want to, you can throw a punch or a draw a knife on anyone. 
- Lots of different ways to run it campaign wise. It's got splat books to cover the past, present, and future. It also has support for treatment of Legendary Pokémon, be they forces of nature or gods on earth.
- There is a relative in-game balance as far as how strong certain strategies are. While imperfect, it does a good job of regulating itself outside of a few outliers. (EX. Early game Technician Meowths are monsters at doing damage.)
- As far as systems go, it's pretty open to homebrew and fakemons. If dedicated, it wouldn't take too much work to splice elements from other games and insert them into a campaign.

Cons
- Number crunchy as shit. However, if you enjoy tossing out big numbers, by all means! (Google Sheets can help out with this by the way. Certain fantastic members of the community have made it much easier to actually build a functioning sheet. I can provide an example of one if necessary.)
- Battles can take a long time if you're not used to them. For the love all things holy, be prepared to have a cheat sheet on you.
- Rules can be a bit finicky in some places until you're used to them. This contributes to the point up above.
- EXP can also a persnickety bitch as far as awarding too much or too little goes.
- Having a lot players isn't really an option. Things tend to slow down to the pace of molasses if you have more than four players, especially if you're a newer GM.

Beyond that, if you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 02, 2016, 12:49:10 am

Quote from: birdy51 on July 02, 2016, 12:09:43 am

I can provide insight here. I'll throw down a quick pros and cons list.

Pros
- Most, if not all Pokémon are viable and to some extent unique. Given some love, even Bidoof can shine.
- A wide variety of trainer archetypes are available to play as, mostly in the vein of Trainer Archetypes, Support/Crafter Archetypes, and Direct Combat Archetypes. If you really want to, you can throw a punch or a draw a knife on anyone. 
- Lots of different ways to run it campaign wise. It's got splat books to cover the past, present, and future. It also has support for treatment of Legendary Pokémon, be they forces of nature or gods on earth.
- There is a relative in-game balance as far as how strong certain strategies are. While imperfect, it does a good job of regulating itself outside of a few outliers. (EX. Early game Technician Meowths are monsters at doing damage.)
- As far as systems go, it's pretty open to homebrew and fakemons. If dedicated, it wouldn't take too much work to splice elements from other games and insert them into a campaign.

Cons
- Number crunchy as shit. However, if you enjoy tossing out big numbers, by all means! (Google Sheets can help out with this by the way. Certain fantastic members of the community have made it much easier to actually build a functioning sheet. I can provide an example of one if necessary.)
- Battles can take a long time if you're not used to them. For the love all things holy, be prepared to have a cheat sheet on you.
- Rules can be a bit finicky in some places until you're used to them. This contributes to the point up above.
- EXP can also a persnickety bitch as far as awarding too much or too little goes.
- Having a lot players isn't really an option. Things tend to slow down to the pace of molasses if you have more than four players, especially if you're a newer GM.

Beyond that, if you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Roll20 has it on their list of things you can have on it. I have a game on there that I probably won't try and run for a long while. I got one gym leader, and two or three of his team done. Its a loooong process, but the automated stuff makes it a liiiitle easier

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 02, 2016, 04:37:28 am

Ohh my tip for 5e DMs

always check on what spells your PCs are using.

For some reason people have a difficult time reading and understanding the spell sections.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: birdy51 on July 02, 2016, 09:02:51 am

Ah yeah! I forgot about the R20 support. That is one sweet plus, since I know a lot of people use that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 02, 2016, 11:12:01 pm

DM wasn't available this session, so we played in the back-up campaign, Hell's Rebels.

Unfortunately, I'm a big dumb Strix Fighter, focusing on Natural Attacks. The others are a Lizardfolk Cleric, a Human Swashbuckler, a Human Arcanist, and an Android Unchained Rogue. So I'm kind of useless, since we seem to manage the non-confrontational approach every damn time. Mostly the suave, smooth-talking Swashbuckler being stupidly Charismatic. But also thanks to the Cleric or Arcanist having the right spells. Our Arcanist was even able to create forgeries through Linguistics to screw with House Thrune goons. And our Rogue sabotaged the public execution devices to free some poor guy who was going to be dog-housed.

There was also a plot twist I won't share that left us laughing. This campaign's DM couldn't even keep from laughing while reading from the book.

I'm just a big dumb bird whose answer to most questions is "Hello, I am birb". At least I have a pet bird/Familiar. Mauler (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Familiar%20Mauler) archetype. It's a beast. One that almost died from a single hit because Familiars are squishy.

I am itching to play the main campaign, even if that DM is rather restrictive. It's not often you get to play a Mythic Gestalt campaign. Was able to add my Tier to my effective Caster Level for my Kineticist/Barbarian. Would have been a genuine god-killer in the end-game. If he was ever able to go first. Damned Ranger/Paladin. The Kensai/Bloodrager would have been bad as well. At a certain level, Kensai-Magus get to treat their initiative roll as if it were a twenty, every damn time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 07, 2016, 09:51:36 pm

Game has been slow lately, this weekend's session should change that, I'm almost ready to get the final ball rolling in this campaign, and its going to be hectic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 08, 2016, 08:13:25 pm

DANG IT DANG IT DANG IT!!!

Battletech finally has its "Campaign" book.

I am SO tempted to break my rule and actually run a battletech game.

But it is also probably one of the hardest games to run hands freeken down and be nearly impossible to run in a PBP format.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 08, 2016, 09:29:16 pm

I pulled a kratos on what I thought was my DM's attempt at a shoggoth, but it seems to just be some watcher in the water stuff. I crit a strength check when it tried to devour me while I was size large (he was gargantuan) and I tried to pry his mouth open and hold it open so my allies can kill it. Instead, I SNAP ITS JAW AND ON MY NEXT TURN, PROCEED TO DO A SECOND CRIT, KILLING THE MONSTER AND RIPPING ITS HEAD OFF AND FLINGING IT INTO A WALL, splattering eldritch blood and gore everywhere. I took an eyeball as a trophy, which is as big as my torso, and I'm a 5'11" barbarian shifter normally.

We then got to work and found this lady who we were supposed to report to, and she proceeds to use some sort of ability to make the rape-Druid paranoid of everyone but her, and the entire time, to disguise my voice, I make it sound raspy and under a helmet (which I hated). I discern that she's not an elf like she looks, because she has nothing inside her mouth; no teeth, no tongue, no no flesh, nothing. We head to the keep, since we have to get audience with the king (who we are trying to kill so his son can take over and the Order of Leon be ousted from the city) and she proceeds to interrogate us. Cliff, my barbarian, gets upset at the lack of hospitality after about a dozen questions and says that the party is hurting, smelly (we were in a sewer and I was jumping on the horror that used sewage as a second layer of skin), hungry and tired, as this was closing in on the evening and we fought an entire war in about a week and took about 5 rests during our crusade. She proceeds to try and deny she's an elf and, despite criting on her deception check, it doesn't work if you know the truth. I grab her, and due to how strong my character is, he ends up CRACKING HER FACE SOMEHOW. Our wizard casts mending, and apologized for me, and she comes out and says she's the equivalent of an android. Rape-Druid proceeds to try and seduce her and she hands him a shard of her face, which is porcelain (he's a Genasi and he has a dick that's, literally, solid stone). He just goes batty for her the rest of the time and we're invited to eat finally, and we are given the chance to eat with the king, and we do, despite stinking of sewage (the 15-16 year old NPC rogue wasn't too thrilled about going into the sewers). We find out the porcelain lady's sister, who's more of a warrior than an "entertainer" like the one we dealt with. We find out they represent the Order of Leon (whom my character hates with a passion) and I try reaaaally hard not to smash them both.

Session ended with a bath and a long rest. Thankfully, despite the rape-Druid telling everyone about our exploits against this King, we're still managing to keep a low profile. I'm expecting a bloodbath at some point where I go hulk by downing a giant strength potion, shifting, raging and my party wizard casting enlarge person on me, and just ripping everyone apart with my axe. Mostly because the consensus is the people follow their leader, and the King likes the order.

Considering last session, I soloed three low inquisitors (second or third lowest rank, but pretty much the corporals of their army) and did it hotline Miami style by booting in the door and just insta-killing one of them, they have something to fear for once. My goal for once the king is dealt with is to rout or kill any order in the area, driving them out of the region. I've already killed one of their higher ranking soldiers (a high inquisitor, which for context, is a custom paladin that is the lowest of their elite soldier units and in a 1v1 fight with a level 4 barbarian, the barb almost died in 3 turns while raging... I needed backup, but with backup, they're like a mini boss) I'm pretty sure we can send them packing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 09, 2016, 11:39:08 pm

DM unavailable again. Back-up campaign again.

Go to investigate old run-down assassin's guild. Spoopy. But before that we run into a bum wearing fancy bone jewelry/Holy Symbol of an ancient evil Demon Lord. He was singing incoherently.

Formulate plan to mug him. I want to punch him, grab the necklace and run. The Swashbuckler walks up and tries to be friends, singing along with him. It fails, as the bum reveals he was a shape-shifting cannibal monstrosity the whole time. Curb stomp the monster until its flesh is paste. Or more mushy than is usual for an aberration, anyways.

Enter building. Fight more aberrations and some cultists. After killing a few cultists, the remaining cultists nope the fuck out of the room. Find more symbolism of the Demon Lord. Run into a Devil bound to protect the place. The Swashbuckler tries to be friends. He doesn't want to be friends. The cultists pay him in souls, which is rather lucrative for him. So we try to tempt him out of his contract by offering the corpses of the cultists we kill, claiming the corpses were their souls. He's not dumb, and sees through us. We ask to meet his master, and he walks into another room before emerging again and claiming that his master was just sacrificed, so we don't need to stay in the old guild any longer, and that he will leave when we leave. We see through his ruse, so we have to fight him. He runs away as well. Not a terrible idea to try and fool us, since they had a long-ass time to form a plan. We aren't stealthy.

Enter the next room. Five cultists, the devil and some chained prisoners for sacrifice. We clear a few of them before discovering our one weakness; Will saves. They had Wands of Hold Person. The fight slows significantly. My big dumb bird Fighter and the overly Charismatic Swashbuckler are frozen, but luckily my Familiar and the Cleric win out in the end, and free the captives. Except one of the captives was the real master all along. Cue the Arcanist screaming at us for freeing prisoners before interrogating them. So we stomp the master because there were four of us, plus a bird, versus them.

Retreading back, we come across a pit in the hall. I am bird-man, and hover over. Swashbuckler goes to jump, and falls in. I fly down and dig him out. Then the Cleric healed him. Then we looked at the map and noticed we navigated through a hidden passage that goes around this trap already. Moving on, we find a room full of Yellow Mould. Throw in oil and torches and run, because fuck Oozes.

Enter new room. Weird earth-type outsider. Not aggressive, only wants to block on door. Also wants to eat gems, but no-one has fed him in a while, so he's been rationing what he has. We have no gems, so the Arcanist grabs some of the outsider's gems and offers them in return for passage. The outsider gets pissed, and we don't let the Arcanist handle Charisma-dependent interactions anymore.

Then we called the session after we kill the thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 10, 2016, 03:21:40 am

AHHH! The rules for Battletech is so dense!

How the freeken heck will I ever create a game for this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 12, 2016, 10:46:16 pm

Lot of RP this session, but we ended up talking to this resistance leader who's against the city our guild is based in. I'm instantly suspicious of him because of him holding a cursed amulet (it lost its curse we discovered) and the fact he refuses to let the world know about this awful being that opened a portal to the abyss. We run into a drow, and my character, who's father was a drow, grows surly.

We end up back in our guild and I tell a dwarf to watch his tongue around me since I'm a local merc and he obviously needed a job done, especially since it was a posting put up when we had less guild members. We then decide to use this 100 year old wine to rig some drinking contests after swithing some labels.

AND THEN MY DM PULLS THE MOST EPIC SHIT EVER.

So we go into the bar and we sell off the fighter as a man with an iron stomach. A strong, tall man steps forward and says "I'm the CHAMPION of drinking contests! You can't beat me!"

We set them up with two unopened bottles of wine (giving the man the rigged bottle) and he starts. We shows how potent it was on a 8' tall giant of a man who gets plastered on one drink, and this man pulls out a cup with the initials J.C. on it, and he fills the cup. HE DRINKS THE WHOLE THING AND IS UNEFFECTED. The fighter starts drinking equal amount, and then the man starts reducing his amount slowly, and he starts getting slowly more drunk but STILL HE STANDS.

The DM starts playing some music after the man crit for the third time in a row, and the fighter is starting to chug his wine straight from the bottle. Immediatley, the party bard goes "WAIT, J.C.!? NO, YOU DIDN'T..."

The music plays.

THE CHAMP GRABS THE BOTTLE AND CHUGS THE REST OF IT. HE CRIT ABOUT 5 TIMES ON THIS BOTTLE.

J.C. slams the bottle, wipes his mouth and stares down the fighter, red faced and veins popping out of his neck and arms.

The man goes to move and he vomits and passes out. The fighter chugs his bottle in vicyory and falls over. The two of them get back up after a bit and the champ joins our guild.

This music starts playing and is currently still playing in the "wait room" of our Roll20 game:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cZ7ndjhhps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cZ7ndjhhps)

WE RECRUITED THE LEGENDARY

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

JOHN CENA

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Fabulous death bringer on July 12, 2016, 11:12:48 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on July 08, 2016, 09:29:16 pm

I pulled a kratos on what I thought was my DM's attempt at a shoggoth, but it seems to just be some watcher in the water stuff. I crit a strength check when it tried to devour me while I was size large (he was gargantuan) and I tried to pry his mouth open and hold it open so my allies can kill it. Instead, I SNAP ITS JAW AND ON MY NEXT TURN, PROCEED TO DO A SECOND CRIT, KILLING THE MONSTER AND RIPPING ITS HEAD OFF AND FLINGING IT INTO A WALL, splattering eldritch blood and gore everywhere. I took an eyeball as a trophy, which is as big as my torso, and I'm a 5'11" barbarian shifter normally.

We then got to work and found this lady who we were supposed to report to, and she proceeds to use some sort of ability to make the rape-Druid paranoid of everyone but her, and the entire time, to disguise my voice, I make it sound raspy and under a helmet (which I hated). I discern that she's not an elf like she looks, because she has nothing inside her mouth; no teeth, no tongue, no no flesh, nothing. We head to the keep, since we have to get audience with the king (who we are trying to kill so his son can take over and the Order of Leon be ousted from the city) and she proceeds to interrogate us. Cliff, my barbarian, gets upset at the lack of hospitality after about a dozen questions and says that the party is hurting, smelly (we were in a sewer and I was jumping on the horror that used sewage as a second layer of skin), hungry and tired, as this was closing in on the evening and we fought an entire war in about a week and took about 5 rests during our crusade. She proceeds to try and deny she's an elf and, despite criting on her deception check, it doesn't work if you know the truth. I grab her, and due to how strong my character is, he ends up CRACKING HER FACE SOMEHOW. Our wizard casts mending, and apologized for me, and she comes out and says she's the equivalent of an android. Rape-Druid proceeds to try and seduce her and she hands him a shard of her face, which is porcelain (he's a Genasi and he has a dick that's, literally, solid stone). He just goes batty for her the rest of the time and we're invited to eat finally, and we are given the chance to eat with the king, and we do, despite stinking of sewage (the 15-16 year old NPC rogue wasn't too thrilled about going into the sewers). We find out the porcelain lady's sister, who's more of a warrior than an "entertainer" like the one we dealt with. We find out they represent the Order of Leon (whom my character hates with a passion) and I try reaaaally hard not to smash them both.

Session ended with a bath and a long rest. Thankfully, despite the rape-Druid telling everyone about our exploits against this King, we're still managing to keep a low profile. I'm expecting a bloodbath at some point where I go hulk by downing a giant strength potion, shifting, raging and my party wizard casting enlarge person on me, and just ripping everyone apart with my axe. Mostly because the consensus is the people follow their leader, and the King likes the order.

Considering last session, I soloed three low inquisitors (second or third lowest rank, but pretty much the corporals of their army) and did it hotline Miami style by booting in the door and just insta-killing one of them, they have something to fear for once. My goal for once the king is dealt with is to rout or kill any order in the area, driving them out of the region. I've already killed one of their higher ranking soldiers (a high inquisitor, which for context, is a custom paladin that is the lowest of their elite soldier units and in a 1v1 fight with a level 4 barbarian, the barb almost died in 3 turns while raging... I needed backup, but with backup, they're like a mini boss) I'm pretty sure we can send them packing.

That was a fun session. I, being the druid and acting as head merchant, was being the voice of the group. I thought i did the good job at that. I seem to get away with alot of stupid stuff.

I did at least 1 awesome thing. you see we are helping to fight a war and there is only the main city left. So I thought 'it is easier to find ways out then ways in' so I thought of ways to get druids in.
We managed to get 60 druids into the city.....by...... making them all turn into mice and hid in the Pocket Hole.

And we let them out by saying i need to check so wears and after we open the hole, all the mice ran out of it and fled all over the city!!!!

After that we dealt with the eldritch horror.....that was in the sewer... WHICH THE CITY DIDNT EVEN KNOW THAT WAS DOWN THERE. the only sad thing is we don't know if the 6 kid that we had an idea that was playing in game dnd, didn't all get killed. I told them not to play down there for a while but we found their stuff as if they were interrupted.

We met the girl, had a talking battle as it were. but I don't know if she was causing me to be supicious or was it the Book of Eldritch horror I am trying to tame. Yes I am trying to tame it, and if i can't i will destroy it.

Nothing super epic after that but one line i thought was hilarious did happen. See my druid love art, and he see this Doll lady android person and a walking talking Art work. And is amazed by her beauty and the level of work put in to her.
During dinner after i compliment her on her singing, Cliff says "Stop trying to bone her" and I reply with "It is called Stone-ing not Bone-ing" Since my character LITERALLY has a dick made of stone.

The session was super fun and i loved every minute of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 13, 2016, 01:34:31 am

So sex for him would be like passing the worst kidney stone, while to her it would get sand all up in her vagina?

I don't think you thought this through.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 13, 2016, 02:09:09 pm

Stone =/= sand you fool

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 13, 2016, 02:18:01 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on July 13, 2016, 02:09:09 pm

Stone =/= sand you fool

Depends on how hard and long you work it, really.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2016, 02:18:45 pm

Don't overdo it guys.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 02:29:36 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 10, 2016, 03:21:40 am

AHHH! The rules for Battletech is so dense!

How the freeken heck will I ever create a game for this?

Which version?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 02:42:19 pm

Quote from: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 02:29:36 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 10, 2016, 03:21:40 am

AHHH! The rules for Battletech is so dense!

How the freeken heck will I ever create a game for this?

Which version?

The new one. (Campaign Operations, Tactical Operation, Strategic Operations, Interstellar Operation, Total Warfare, Techbook)

I've all but given up at this point. Especially as some rules are hidden in other books and vise versa.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 02:43:45 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 02:42:19 pm

Quote from: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 02:29:36 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 10, 2016, 03:21:40 am

AHHH! The rules for Battletech is so dense!

How the freeken heck will I ever create a game for this?

Which version?

The new one.

I've all but given up at this point.

Basic, Extended, Starships or RPG?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 02:47:31 pm

Extended AND Starship

The RPG rules sure would be nice... if they were compatible with the actual game... Which I honestly have no idea why they aren't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 02:59:29 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 02:47:31 pm

Extended AND Starship

The RPG rules sure would be nice... if they were compatible with the actual game... Which I honestly have no idea why they aren't.

What problems are you having?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 03:11:59 pm

Quote from: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 02:59:29 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 02:47:31 pm

Extended AND Starship

The RPG rules sure would be nice... if they were compatible with the actual game... Which I honestly have no idea why they aren't.

What problems are you having?

Just priming it for an actual game. Especially since the rules are all over the place.

For example... hypothetically... How much does it cost to create a base of operations?

How much does it cost to train and field megasaur riders? (as they don't seem to give a cost for them)

Heck how do I get the HP of creatures?

There are rules on infantry and their equipment such as armor... But there is a second set of rules that aren't as stringent (for example for a flat fee I can apply armor to a troop)

(Also I am aware that beast riding troops are usually locales as the cost to transport animals is usually FAR greater then their actual usefulness. Though I am surprised they didn't list the dinosaur stats... I'd think they would be one of the prime types)

Edit: Here is some stuff I found... Goodness so much to do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 03:29:28 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 03:11:59 pm

Quote from: BorkBorkGoesTheCode on July 13, 2016, 02:59:29 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 02:47:31 pm

Extended AND Starship

The RPG rules sure would be nice... if they were compatible with the actual game... Which I honestly have no idea why they aren't.

What problems are you having?

Just priming it for an actual game. Especially since the rules are all over the place.

For example... hypothetically... How much does it cost to create a base of operations?

How much does it cost to train and field megasaur riders? (as they don't seem to give a cost for them)

Heck how do I get the HP of creatures?

There are rules on infantry and their equipment such as armor... But there is a second set of rules that aren't as stringent (for example for a flat fee I can apply armor to a troop)

(Also I am aware that beast riding troops are usually locales as the cost to transport animals is usually FAR greater then their actual usefulness. Though I am surprised they didn't list the dinosaur stats... I'd think they would be one of the prime types)

I'm sorry, I can't help. Due to budgeting and time issues, I never got to play the Battletech tabletop. I promise to get back to you after I get a copy of Tactical Operations and Strategic Operations. I do however own the mech construction rulebook.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 13, 2016, 05:03:31 pm

It will take me over a month to get a good enough grasp on the Battletech campaign rules (and all those supplements) to even hope to know it well enough to run a game.

I think instead I should look towards Shadowrun 5th edition (as painfully underdeveloped as it is) for a possible game to run.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on July 14, 2016, 05:14:41 am

Looks like I might be running a one-off Pathfinder session at my university's con in a month. If you guys have any cool eldritch entity/creepy cult ideas, feel free to sling them my way. I'm currently thinking of a fairly basic raid on the cult base to steal (MacGuffin), facing opposition from robed mooks, eldritch deathtraps, and the occasional horror.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on July 14, 2016, 08:07:20 am

Scenario: Adventurers arrive at isolated seaside/swamp/deep woods village. Everyone in whole village greets them as "Hello Stranger!" in your creepiest DM voice. Anyone not from the village gets called Stranger, no matter how often or how hard they try to tell them their names. The villagers regularly violate common unwritten rules of social interaction: they reach out and touch your face when talking to you, every time you go to the out-house someone tries to accompany you to 'help', people eating things not made to be eaten, stopping suddenly and walking away halfway though speaking, random outbursts of song, laughter, poetry or crying, performing actions usually done indoors in public outdoor areas, etc. Possibly describe a baby's crying in the background at several times, only to stop describing it later, then have one of your PCs realise it's stopped.

The reason they're here is up to you. Perhaps they're supposed to meet someone here and they're not showing up until a few days. They might be someone they're supposed to protect, or someone they're supposed to kill. However it's clear nothing's right in this village, and unless they want to get murdered in their sleep they'd best get to the bottom of it. Ideas for the source include enchantment school spells such as Dominate Person that leave normal people as robotic minions, or insanity producing monsters such as many aberrations. Depends on the level of your party as to why the village is acting this way, and therefore how you expect the group to attempt to solve it.

Personally, I don't find much fun in a simple "Go here, kill cultists" mission. Doesn't give nearly as much roleplaying potential as a good mystery. If you're gonna give them a simple target like that, you may as well just make it "Generic Fantasy Dungeon Crawl #96" and let them roll their initiative for each room of inexplicably placed monsters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on July 14, 2016, 08:41:54 am

I wasn't going to make it quite as simple as 'go here, kill cultists', but it's true. I like the village idea, though, thanks!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 14, 2016, 12:54:39 pm

Heh. I had a great idea for a Chaotic Evil Necropolitan Sorcerer. He was just high enough level to cast insanity - and by god did he ever want to use it on a big beefy guy.

He was the kind of evil where he'd sovereign glue a platinum piece over a glyph of warding. He'd polymorph into a goose and harrass a village, then turn into a dragon if someone tried to stop him.

Needless to say, guy was all sorts of "wrong". I'm going to have to use him as a villain one day - There's more to his crazy than that. It's just what he does when he gets bored. He's actually a conniving bastard of an evil villain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 14, 2016, 12:56:02 pm

Mmmm Neapolitan Sorcerer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 14, 2016, 06:03:39 pm

I actually did the "creepy village" thing once.

They spent the whole day trying to figure out what was going on, but almost all the villagers would say nothing when quested but "everything is fine". When, confused and unnerved, they bought two rooms at the inn ( the keeper of which muttered constantly and clammed up when they realised he was talking like a real person). They paid for rooms 2 and 3, so the rogue obviously broke into room 1 to see who was staying there.

When she opened the door, she saw that every inch of the room was covered in faintly-glowing blood runes of interminable purpose. They decided not to fuck with them in case it was a trap, and all piled into room 3, where they passed a very uneasy night, taking turns to stand watch.

In the morning they went downstairs to find all the patrons sitting exactly where they'd been the night before. They were stock still, and staring in random directions. When prodded, they murmured that nothing was wrong and stayed frozen.

Everyone in town they found was the same, with the exception of the gate guard, who was gone.

They decided that this was the limit of creepy they were prepared to handle and left town to go bash the goblins they were here for in the first place. They were deep in the castle the gobs were operating from when they heard more fighting, and rushed to help, saving a battered young adventurer who introduced himself as Alaric. He seemed nice, so the barbarian didn't make him into modern art, and he helped them through the rest of the dungeon. The rogue was secretly spying on him and ascertained that while the friendliness seemed genuine, he seemed on edge, ad stressed in a nervous way. But anyway, they all killed the gobo boss, and decided to split the payment with him, on agreement that they'd meet up with Alaric at the nearest city when both were done with their various quests and such.
They were leaving, when the bard noted they didn't have camping gear and asked where he was staying.

"Oh, this lovely inn down in <village name>"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on July 14, 2016, 10:34:33 pm

Oh boy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 17, 2016, 02:58:16 am

Another session in the back-up campaign. Arcanist player was unavailable though. Rogue player was free for once.

We kept tripping traps. Partially out of greed. We know the gems were a trap, but we want gold, damnit. Party-destroying devil-bug be damned. Then wraiths and ghasts mess our faces up. Just about everyone almost died at least once. Was fun.

If I end up dying, I'm probably coming back as a Vigilante. Or a Sanctified Slayer archetyped Inquisitor. Or maybe even the non-lethal bleeding Rogue I've had floating around for quite some time.

Either way, I've noticed that a Kitsune would make an awesome Vigilante. Though their persona-switching may be a little screwy, since they would need to change personas and between Kitsune form, Human form, or Fox form. But this DM gave me the OK to wield a katana in my mouth in Fox form, so long as the katana is appropriately sized for me, which is hilarious. And weebish.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on July 17, 2016, 03:52:51 am

Pathfinder Question: I've got a Fire Kineticist planned as the big boss for the next adventure/dungeon planned for my party. They've just hit level 3, and it's a level 6 monster, meaning CR 5. My big concern is that it has a +11 to hit vs. touch AC, and deals 3d6+12 damage. Do you think that's too much for a party of low level characters? I know the party Kineticist has over 40 hp, so he'll probably be the target most of the time, and hopefully someone plans to pack energy resistance for the day. A natural 20 roll would just about guarantee character death, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on July 17, 2016, 08:33:59 am

It really depends on how smart your players are.  In the veteran campaigns I've run before my general rule of thumb is 'Players will hit the enemy 40-25% of the time' and if the boss crits it should put you into bleed out or at least fairly close.  That ends up meaning of course that with smart players using flanking, buffs and debuffs usually get about a 50% chance to hit on any given attack and when the boss hits them it feels like it actually matters.

Edit:That said, at level 3 I know people who are rather nooby at table top tactics or have really underpowered characters through either bad feat choice or for story reasons that would have a ton of trouble even dealing with a CR 4 monster.  (That said, your kineticist having 40hp sounds like he's more than optimized enough to be able to take on something that much stronger.)

Editx2 Combo:I also just remembered the reason I started to post in the first place.  I'm planning on running a sort of semi-play by post game of a system called Blade of the Iron throne.  What would happen is that role-play, day to day life, shopping, planning and the like will take place in the forum thread and then when someone enters into combat I would ask them to join me in a discord or roll20 to do the combat encounter.  I feel that blade of the iron throne should work well using this because combat takes place in a 'limelight' mode where each player takes turns doing a number of 'exchanges' with whatever or whoever is fighting them and the limelight swaps when something major in the fight happens like the player taking a large blow, killing their enemy, ect.  So ideally I'd be able to do a 10-20 minute session with each person individually, post the results in the thread and get ahold of another person who hasn't taken their turn yet to do the same thing.

Blade of the Iron throne itself has an indepth combat system utilizing stances, attack types, and specialty defenses to out-manouver your oppoent.  Including causing them to bleed to death from a number of small wounds all over their body (it has 14 attack zones that you can choose from, and then 3 subzones in that area you roll for when you hit) as well as pain, shock and regular old coup-de-grace style attacks.  Think dwarf fortress combat the tabletop more or less, including having armor only protect you where armor actually is.  Wearing a armored chest-plate ain't gonna save your shins from that warhammer.  All that said, because you do not have a true health bar like most rpg's (you just get slower, drained ect as you take blows.  Allowing them to eventually get in powerful attacks that kill you outright (even then you have a limited number of drama points to spend to 'not really die just look like you got brutally killed but you can still be saved'))

It also has magic based off of necromancy, daemonlogy, divine powers and supernatural afflictions/curses.  The use of such magic requires you to carefully contain your spells, not only cast them to avoid damaging people you don't want to damage and counter Taint which will slowly twist the bodies and minds of careless wizards.  That said the spell system has rules and guidelines to allow gm's to make their own lesser mysteries (think low level dnd spells), greater mysteries (level 4-7 spells) and arcane secrets (level 8, 9 and epic spells) so with some work with me you could have any reasonable spellcaster you'd want for the setting.

TLDR:It's a sword and sorcery game set in a brutal world, with disposable mooks, powerful arch-enemies and gigantic monsters that is reminiscent of old literature like the Odyssey, Beowulf and newer fiction like Conan the barbarian.

Overall I have a plan for an alt-history like dark ages Europe setting which I am more than happy to change to accommodate unique character ideas for anyone who'd want to play.  I have a real-life friend or two who already have expressed interest in playing (one has a character already made) but I'd be looking for 3-4 more players from the forums if there's any interest? 

Does anyone have any questions?  Feedback?  Here's a link to the extract first chapter of the rulebook as put out by the publisher here (http://www.ironthronepublishing.com/downloads/BladeExtractOpt.pdf) and I have the character sheets and full core book on pdf if you have questions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 17, 2016, 11:37:05 am

I would express an interest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: birdy51 on July 17, 2016, 12:02:48 pm

Alternatively, a village that only tries to be nice with over-bearing hospitality could be interesting. Shower the party with gifts in a bid to never let them leave. Roll out the red carpet. Praise them for heroic deeds they never did. Offer them wives and fine feasting, fattening them for the great Sun Ceremony where they shall ascend like Gods into the sky upon chariots of fire!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 17, 2016, 12:28:46 pm

Consider: all of that, but there's no sacrifice or anything. The villagers just have way too much stuff and incredible generosity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Twinwolf on July 17, 2016, 12:35:58 pm

That's a good way to make players feel bad when they kill them out of paranoia.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2016, 12:36:22 pm

I think there was a Voyager episode like that, where the local people "just" really wanted the interesting visitors to stay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 17, 2016, 12:43:45 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on July 17, 2016, 12:28:46 pm

Consider: all of that, but there's no sacrifice or anything. The villagers just have way too much stuff and incredible generosity.

Or maybe instead of hoping adventurers turn up when they're in dire need they can just keep some around and get a piece of the amazing feats of economics adventurers can achieve. Not to mention the superb protection.

You could even form a world like this. Kind of like how the people of a land answer to a knight, except all the knights in the land are knights-errant. Except the ones you manage to appease and compel to stay, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 17, 2016, 01:52:15 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on July 17, 2016, 12:02:48 pm

Alternatively, a village that only tries to be nice with over-bearing hospitality could be interesting. Shower the party with gifts in a bid to never let them leave. Roll out the red carpet. Praise them for heroic deeds they never did. Offer them wives and fine feasting, fattening them for the great Sun Ceremony where they shall ascend like Gods into the sky upon chariots of fire!

And then after the players has killed all of the villagers they find actual chariots that they were supposed to be given, made out of pure gold, and able to fly (with a cool comet flame effect while they're in the air)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 17, 2016, 03:04:05 pm

EDIT:

Became proficient in "Motherfucker" as I ripped a lady made of porcelin's arms off and threw her at her sister. I also then proceeded to fight this dwarven king who I decimated with my axe while I'm roided out with a fire giant potion and enlarge person (think werewolf hulk with an axe) and dealt 100+ damage in the first attack on him. He then changed and became more threatening as his flesh just melts away as he turns into an avatar of lightning (or Zeus, one of the two) and I proceed to kick his ass and throw him hard enough into a pillar that he was stuck there for a bit until the etirety of his flesh was gone and was pure energy. I then proceeded to wreck him before the DM got to use his ultimate attack (chain storm. He does chain lightning but every hit is thunderbolt's damage) and I made the DM sad. He gave me proficency in "Motherfucker", got a chest of gold and a bunch of treasures, including a berserker axe that is the same as my current weapon except it gives bonus HP. So, I just used that. We also got some RP stuff done where we heal and fix the porcelin ladies who swear allegiance to the new king (who was our ally) and they round up their former allies, the order of leon, in order to have them executed.

We're also getting a reward from these druids we won this entire war for. I kid you not, they suffered so many casualities and we had one injury, which was our NPC bard got knocked unconcious with poison and was out of commission. And it wasn't even from an enemy soldier, it was from the mother of our party rogue who's a faction leader (who I used to beat up said faction leader's husband).

Overall, this campaign has pretty much shown me that our group is a much worse version of the inglorious basterds...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 17, 2016, 03:16:10 pm

Wrong thread?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2016, 03:23:12 pm

I think maybe wrong thread.

Also, I guess I haven't posted updates for a couple sessions.  Vampire game is still happening, it's just other stuff is happening too.
Highlights, I guess:

My character admitted to the Prince about breaking under torture.  Got a strike (2 strikes you're dead) and a mission.
We need to kill the werewolf we set free while escaping from the hunter base.
If we don't, my character explodes, but he "forgot" to mention that to the party.

Of course before that could happen, we had to go full idiot.
Our ventrue ordered delivery to our apartment *again*.  My Mekhet spoke my OOC words IC because that's his one derangement (6 humanity), which spooked the delivery guy.  Our Gangrel immediately tried to ride the wave to catch him (nooo, why).  Failed.  It's only 4d6, it's pretty much a coin flip every time she does this X_X

What this means is that she's now in an anger frenzy for the entire "scene", so indefinitely, murdering anything in her path.  Slight prioritization to the original instigator.

So she killed the delivery man as my character and his ghoul tried to apprehend him, then turned on us.  We basically have to end her frenzies with fire when this happens, hopefully provoking a fear frenzy (and end of scene as she flees into the suburbs and sleeps underground.  Protean is weird).

No play-by-play here, it just went south.  My Mekhet jumped out the window.  So did my ghoul.  Falling 6 stories is apparently pretty much nothing in WoD (vampires don't actually get much benefit compared to mortals).  Problem was, I was hoping she'd go after our Ventrue again, who helped cause the situation.  She didn't, she leapt after us (which makes perfect sense in retrospect, beast focuses on the present).

My Mekhet burned all his vitae resolving the situation.  Survived with one health, gangrel fleed, dead cop, hunger frenzy made him nearly drank his ghoul's last point of blood but rolled really well.  Somewhat disappointed, it would have been a textbook hunger frenzy followed by horror.

Plus I kinda wanted to make her a full vampire, but probably best I didn't.  It's hugely illegal, and my character is already in big trouble.

Technically she scared away our gangrel btw, by lighting her "medical" alcohol on fire.  After having her arm torn off.  (her rolls for consciousness were incredible).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on July 17, 2016, 04:00:13 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 17, 2016, 03:16:10 pm

Wrong thread?

Very wrong thread. Whoops

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 17, 2016, 05:49:47 pm

Rolan, that campaign is like a train wreck of infinitely long trains and every train is loaded with a mix of horror, badassery and idiocy and the lady from futurama is reporting live and cackling unendingly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on July 18, 2016, 05:57:18 am

I've decided to throw a wand of Resist Energy into the loot earlier in the dungeon to increase the survivability of the group when facing the boss. With -10 damage per hit, they should take an average of 12.5 damage once per round, which should be enough to be tense but not critically dangerous. That's if they're smart enough to identify it and use it before the fight, so the ball's in their court over whether they play smart or dumb.

One other thing I do for my players is give them a bonus optional area after the main quest chain is complete in a dungeon. This time, the group is going to have powered through a mine full of kobolds who have rallied around a fire kineticist that convinced them she was turning into a red dragon. Part of the backstory I have planned is that she convinced her minions to fight to the death for her because she claims to have captured a red dragon and is siphoning its power into herself. Given the nature of kineticist powers (shooting fire from their hands, loud visual displays of elemental might, overflowing with power and bleeding pure fire) I'd say she's pretty convincing for her minions. How this comes back to the bonus area is the backstory of the dragon. In actual fact, she's shown the dragon to each of her minions and they believe her without question. The truth is actually something far different.

I've taken a crysmal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/crysmal), then added the Creature Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/creature-swarm-template) and Apocalypse Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/apocalypse-swarm-cr-3) templates to it. The resulting Apocalypse Crysmal Swarm creature has Silent Image and Ghost Sound, which it uses to scare away creatures entering its lair by creating an image of a red dragon, the sound of its roar, and using its fear aura ability to frighten away any intelligent creatures. I expect to catch my players with the same trick too, and I'll bet they'll gear up for a fight with a red dragon only to discover that they're fighting an elemental swarm instead. The good news is that it's a fairly low risk creature, since fleeing is a completely valid option as it won't pursue them outside its lair. The bad news is I sincerely doubt they will be able to kill it given their level and the creature's numerous immunities. About all that could kill it is a decent will save-or-die effect or a massive amount of AoE acid damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 20, 2016, 09:49:06 pm

Tried to climb down a rope in the sewers.  Too busy griping IC about all the sewage to consider how stupid this was.
See, the drop is 50ft.  And Jake is noodle-weak, has no athletics skill, and is currently missing an arm and all but one of his health blocks are full of incredibly painful aggravated damage.

The roll was like -8 lol.  But anything 0 or less is the same, a chance roll (1 in 10 basically).  6.
Burned a vitae on the way down to dextrously assume a diving stance.  Wrenched his legs a bit, but only took one point of bashing damage.
If he'd taken 2, he have fallen into torpor and needed another vitae donation.

Probably from Kayla...  Our hair-trigger gangrel...  Which would mean a stage 2 vinculum.  Which she already has over our Ventrue.  Because Kayla keeps not dying and having to save us, and her blood is incredibly potent from all the diablerie.

3 damage and he would have crumpled into dust, and the local Nosferatu would have laughed for hours.

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on July 17, 2016, 05:49:47 pm

Rolan, that campaign is like a train wreck of infinitely long trains and every train is loaded with a mix of horror, badassery and idiocy and the lady from futurama is reporting live and cackling unendingly.

yes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2016, 09:54:25 pm

Apparently just wanting to run a bunch of shadow runs without any real overarching story isn't good enough.

But it might be just my ignorance but I honestly don't think Shadowrun needs an overarching plot and while you can... usually it is detrimental to the game.

It is a sort of "character based" game in my mind. It is about the Shadowrunners and how they change and change things themselves through shadowrunning. Whether dying or climbing up the ladder of shadowrunning.

So my imagination is weak. Since really what could be the overarching threat in shadowrun? What is Apple coming out with the iPhone 2075 causing mass panic in the street?

Some imaginary city that has a monopoly control everything?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 20, 2016, 10:09:37 pm

Have you tried any of the Shadowrun Video Games? Could get some inspiration from there.

Lots of nastiness out in the world. Corporations own almost everything, and some aren't held back by pesky things such as morals. Then there's Organized Crime syndicates, which sometimes dabble in alliances with corporations, or what few crumbling governments are left. This is all before getting into all the magic. Lots of Things-that-should-not-be that threaten the world. Dragons carve up chunks of land for themselves. Racism divides Metahumanity, and Cybernetics and divide it further.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 20, 2016, 10:10:31 pm

Doesn't have to be some massive threat, just a linking narrative, everything could be self contained as long as there is continuity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on July 20, 2016, 10:14:25 pm

Perhaps make the plot character-based too. What I can think of off the top of my head: create rival shadowrunners who, either through chance or deliberately, get in the players' way, wreck their runs, that sort of thing. Maybe make the rivals "evil counterparts" of the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 20, 2016, 10:21:50 pm

If one of the players is Badguy McCannibal the Orcish Antipaladin, make Goodguy McHatesCannibals the Orcish Paladin.
No I don't know anything about Shadowrun, why do you ask?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 21, 2016, 04:40:57 am

I have a special request for any interested.  My character is now insane, via shenanigans I might detail later.  He has contracted Malkavianism and is now growing two new personalities.

I want ideas for one of those personalities.

His character is basically:  Fedora-and-trenchcoat wearing, cowardly, spy.  High respect for human life, believes in appeasement.  Jewish.  Goes by JakeTheEar (his early online contacts claimed there was a 10 character limit and it stuck)

I have an idea for his darker half, JakeTheFear.

But what about his other new personality?  For inspiration, he has a lot of guilt over...  Well, a lot of things.  Nearly-killing people nightly to feed.  Destroying a young woman's life by making her his ghoul.  Betraying the Prince under torture.  Failing to live up to his sire's humane example.
He's also constantly being threatened with death.  By the Prince, by Belial's Brood, even to some extent by the party Gangrel.

But it doesn't need to relate to that.  It can be any sort of character, past or future.  It [probably?] isn't real, just a product of Jake's imagination that he'll live as 1/3 of the time.  Our female Malkavian party member has a 50's gangster and an ancient Mesopotamian named Lilith.

Outlandish is good!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on July 21, 2016, 05:13:13 am

Jester, ala Cicero in Skyrim. Bonus points if he carts his mother's corpse around with him in a coffin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 21, 2016, 05:35:45 am

Make the third personality be Simon Magus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus), the been-everywhere, possibly done-everything sorcerer of the ancient world.

Alternatively, you could go for the Freudian trio and have one be the id (darker half, I presume), one be the ego (regular person) and one be the superego (third personality). Or play with the concept and have yourself be the superego, the darker half the id and the third one act as the ego who gets shit done (a role not exclusive with also being Simon Magus). Or have yourself be the id, exemplifying the cowering response, one be the superego embodying vicious and alien principles of vampire life, and the third be a maneuvering overachiever (possibly one who likes to pretend that he's actually regular-you for all intents and purposes) of some kind.

Then there's other archetypes you can play with. Consider what tabletop roleplayer archetype you fit, and have the other personalities conform to different ones, which might make it so that they play differently as opposed to merely talking differently.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on July 21, 2016, 07:56:32 am

You want something to do with his guilt? Make it a flaggellant monk who has taken a vow of silence in penitence and only speaks in Latin prayers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on July 21, 2016, 03:40:12 pm

Or have his new personality simply be the antithesis of himself - the manifestation of all his fear coming true. Feeds on specifically non-kosher humans and animals, for example, and whatever else his fears are, he becomes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 24, 2016, 04:51:32 am

Hell the last three weeks of my campaign have been a slog, between people not getting enough sleep and passing out during the game, problems getting small children to go to sleep, and various other issues, things had slowed to a crawl.  Thankfully last night's game managed to actually get the ball rolling again, now I can finally get everyone back on track to the next major story element.  All of this has made me miss sticking to my strictly freeform DM style, why I decided to do a plot game is beyond me, I must have had a good reason when I started, but now I just want to do something else.

Oh well, I've already committed, and things aren't going that badly.  I'll keep going until either we finish or something gives and we can't continue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 27, 2016, 09:52:04 pm

Old DM came back. Joined in on the side-campaign, though. Maybe we'll get back on track eventually.

Another group he was in was not so kind to his absence. Kicked him, without even letting him know. They also quickly fast-tracked their campaign to make sure it got done before he came back, and killed his character so utterly that the character and everything they've done has been erased from existence.

The DM of that group is also a player in this group, and urged us to kick the player once he announced he would be away for an unforeseen amount of time. This guy is rather strict on attendance. Asked to kick the Current/Replacement DM's girlfriend because she had to attend a funeral.

I mean, I don't like some of the Old-DM/Problem Player's antics at times, or his limitations on books, but he's gotten much better, and he's still our friend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on July 28, 2016, 05:32:03 am

My vampire character's story ended with his final death.
Story-wise, there are probably threads best left out.  But there are also threads which were tragically cut short.  Our GM played a tasteful sad eulogy instrumental as our coterie continued the mission.  Completely befuddled by Malkavianism, they were barely aware that my character died or even ever existed.  But eventually our gangrel's core personality resurfaced, and...

Our GM put Rules of Nature on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM33Hr94SKw)

(the full version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3472Q6kvg0), not that sample)
It was... close.  I want to write a proper story of Jake's chronicle.  My posts have lingered too much on some things, and avoided others.

Until then.  I think our craven sharpshooter would be proud to be eulogized with this dankness.  Particularly since he wasn't exactly his normal craven self at the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3viNl95FlMw

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on July 29, 2016, 08:06:52 pm

My players have successfully beaten the kobolds in the local mine!

They decided to try a frontal assault on the mine, despite the difficult approach 100 ft. in every direction (reskinned barbed wire trap from the Pathfinder SRD) meaning they couldn't close to melee. The samurai had sold his shortbow last session too, so I had a good laugh at his expense when he realised the dozen javelins he'd picked up would be useless. The gnome telekineticist used their simple blast to knock down the kobold's watchtower, and from there they fell to ranged attacks.

They were smart enough to search the door and find the two traps on it, making good use of a 10 ft. pole to set them off. Inside the mine they found a passage coated in lantern oil, on the other end of which was a kobold who threw a smokestick to give himself concealment. They set fire to the oil themselves, but took a pair of acid flasks worth of splash damage from the kobold on the other end of the passage while they waited for the two rounds of burning oil to go out. Then the gnome charges into the passage once the oil is gone, only to set off two fire trap runes placed by the unseen kobold sorcerer inside the room that were underneath the oil. The samurai sets off a third before deciding it's worth actually checking for traps, whereupon they find the remaining two runes and safely move around them. Once they close to melee with the kobold rogue and sorcerer, it's over fairly quickly.

They interrogate the sorcerer after capturing her alive, learning the leader's name, that the kobold leader is transforming into a dragon, and that they have a pet dragon too. They release the kobold prisoner and move further forward, failing to search for traps as they move inside the next room. Lucky for them it's not a trap, but there are four kobold barbarians hiding under camouflage netting who get a surprise round on them. They get some solid hits in but don't manage to deal serious damage, but after healing the group decide they're spent for the day and retreat to rest.

The night passes as they keep watch on the mine entrance, seeing a kobold peek out but immediately retreat. The next morning they attack again, finding a thirty foot deep, five foot wide chasm running across the room. A pair of kobolds riding dire war weasels shoot from the back of their mounts with shortbows, jumping across the chasm to avoid being caught in melee. One of the kobolds goes down, his companion succeeds on a handle animal to get the riderless weasel to attack the samurai, and the weasel rolls a natural 20 and crits! Per the monster entry, it latches on with its teeth, so the samurai gets a feral weasel hanging off his family jewels. Luckily he manages to (carefully) strike it with his sword, killing it and avoiding taking strength and constitution damage the next round. The second rider is quickly cut down shortly afterwards.

Finally the group descend down a 60 ft. shaft, and reaching the bottom find the boss chamber lit by six burning braziers. The kobold boss is described as shimmering with a heat haze and dripping liquid flames from their clawed fingers, and it delays long enough to allow everyone to enter the room before pressing a switch on its throne, triggering the collapse of the ladder leading up the shaft and causing the braziers to start emitting concealing smoke in a 20 ft. radius burst. The party have an 'oh, shit' moment when they realise that they've completely forgotten to use the wand of resist energy given to them earlier.

A merry chase ensues as the boss uses the smoke to their advantage, setting the group on fire and burning down their fire resistance with its infusion abilities. The fight ends up being a near TPK when the boss wins an initiative roll with a natural 20 (we roll initiative each round to keep things interesting). The whole party is perfectly aligned for it to hit them all with its 15 ft. cone of fire, and all of them are at single digit health scores.

But wait! One of my players has saved something very special from the very first session of the campaign. At the start of the campaign, each character received a token valid for one immediate action to reroll one d20. They've saved this for over three months, and today they decide they're going to cash it in to make me reroll my initiative. I reroll, and the result is enough to make the boss go at the end of the round.

Snatching victory out of the jaws of defeat, the group emerge victorious, finishing the session exhausted but ecstatic despite the close call. They get a brief description of the massive stone blocking a passage deeper into the mine, painted with pictures of terrified kobolds, a series of draconic words, and a picture of a dragon.

I'm proud of the way this session emerged, and felt that everyone really enjoyed the game. I can tell that the weasel hit will be a running joke for the samurai character for many more sessions to come, and the boss fight was perfectly balanced to be a tough but winnable encounter even without the group remembering to use the clues I gave them to prepare properly. I'm pretty sure they'll decide to skip the optional bonus area in favour of retreating to town and getting their reward (the owner of the mine promised each person their weight in silver for the job). I can tell the group suspect something strange already about the dragon given how illogical it would be for a creature that large to get into a mine, but we'll see if they can figure out the trick or if they'll believe what the kobold told them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 30, 2016, 09:45:25 pm

Not enough people showed, so we had to start a back-up campaign for our back-up campaign.

Gestalted Kingmaker. Players are a Human Swashbuckler/Fighter, a Halfling Cleric/Fighter, and me, a Tiefling Kensai (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Magus%20Kensai)-Magus (http://archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Magus)/Sanctified-Slayer (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Inquisitor%20Sanctified%20Slayer)-Inquisitor (http://archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Inquisitor).

Swashbuckler's calling Hax because it is really a good combo, if you can juggle the stats well enough. Which we can, as we got a stat-block of 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 14. I have all the Initiative and monster Knowledge ever.

We lost a little bit though. No Traits, and this DM didn't give his signature bonus of two extra Skill Ranks per level, and one additional 1st level feat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: spümpkin on August 01, 2016, 03:56:40 am

Okay, so, today some people actually showed up to a school club me and my friend started up for this sort of thing!

Woo!

This is a big change, considering we spent a lot of weeks sitting doing nothing.

Anyway, we're planning on running a game on Pathfinder, with two separate parties (due to the large amounts of people), with two DMs. One party is 'evil' and one is 'good'.

I mostly just wanted advice on how to be a good DM? I've had a small bit of experience, but hearing some things from more experienced DMs would be beneficial.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 01, 2016, 05:32:13 am

1. Be prepared. Have your notes in order, have the monster stat blocks available either in printed form or on an easily read electronic medium such as a laptop or tablet PC (not a smartphone).

2. Respect the social contract. Be upfront with players about how you want the game to run. Is it a sandbox setting? Tell them they're free to make their own adventures, you're just there for the background. Is it a structured adventure path? Tell them you're running an adventure path and expect them to run their characters with the goal of completing that adventure.

3. Don't use a DM NPC. I know it's tempting to have an awesomely powerful NPC that helps the characters with their quests. Don't. Just don't. Anything helpful or useful to the players should either be in the form of loot, weak NPCs that would die to a single strike of the fighter's blade, or vaguely helpful NPCs that end up causing the players more trouble than it's worth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 01, 2016, 05:33:29 am

There is a good amount of DM advice throughout the thread, I'd recommend that you take a while and read through the first pages.  If you have some specific questions after that, or would like some clarification, by all means, ask away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 01, 2016, 06:23:15 am

Quote from: Jimmy on August 01, 2016, 05:32:13 am

3. Don't use a DM NPC. I know it's tempting to have an awesomely powerful NPC that helps the characters with their quests. Don't. Just don't. Anything helpful or useful to the players should either be in the form of loot, weak NPCs that would die to a single strike of the fighter's blade, or vaguely helpful NPCs that end up causing the players more trouble than it's worth.

By God, this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Emma on August 01, 2016, 06:36:15 am

Is there ever a place for DM NPCs or are they just universally awful?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 01, 2016, 06:56:24 am

Quote from: Gamedragon on August 01, 2016, 06:36:15 am

Is there ever a place for DM PCs or are they just universally awful?

1) If you have a small group/ never get to play and just play him like a regular PC. Be careful though
2) In hell

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Gentlefish on August 01, 2016, 07:10:04 am

3) No-one wants to run healer.

Seriously, this is the only -real- reason I'd run a DMPC. No-one wants to main healing? 'kay, pacifist Cleric of <Insert God/dess here> joins the party!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 01, 2016, 08:09:05 am

Yeah, I've run a healer gmpc for important adventures where they didn't have the sustain. I also occasionally have thrown in a gmpc for like, an employer (or employee of the employer sticking around) but it's always pretty important to be careful with such things I think. If I run such a thing, I generally make them pretty helpless and more comedic relief then actual party member, and even then although it generally works out It's something I am afraid of, I've seen good games ruined in part by GMPCs....

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 01, 2016, 09:16:49 am

If nobody wants to play healer, as a DM I'd just chuck a cure light wounds potion on each intelligent enemy and call it a day. Players can drink their wounds away, and it'd make sense for any intelligent creature to carry a few spare healing potions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 01, 2016, 09:28:55 am

Quote from: Jimmy on August 01, 2016, 05:32:13 am

3. Don't use a DM NPC.

No, this is the absolute opposite of what he should do! The GM should play GMNPCs. What he shouldn't play is GMPCs.

/me pedantries away to safe distance!

Quote from: Gamedragon on August 01, 2016, 06:36:15 am

Is there ever a place for DM NPCs or are they just universally awful?

Aside from the above example, a thing to keep in kind is that gmpc is an almost entirely negative term. A well run gmpc is unlikely to be called such.

Taken to it's core, a gmpc differs from all the other character the GM plays in that it is played along the other players, rather than against them. Simply put, it is a player character run by the GM. However, an NPC that simply follows the party around because, for example, they have a quest to escort said NPC is not necessarily a gmpc. Neither would a bodyguard or healer hired by the party to help out, even if said character is run by the gm and has a full/"normal" character sheet. There is a difference in involvement here that is important.

What really turns people against gmpcs is how common it is that bad GMs make them plot crucial and use them as a tool to string the other players around (often down the railroad, so to speak). This results in the players loosing their sense of agency and/or starting to feel like they are simply "along for the ride" and only side characters in the GMPC's story (particularly if the GM is also using the character to fulfil power fantasies at the players' expense).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: birdy51 on August 01, 2016, 09:41:01 am

GMNPCS are technically ever present in their existence. ^.^

That said, if you are going to run a GMPC, don't let them outshine the real members of the party. They are the real heroes, so let them have their fun!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 01, 2016, 12:14:17 pm

No you heard him no GMNPCs :P

So don't even think about having encounters...

Actually... wouldn't this be therapy?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 02, 2016, 03:10:07 am

Currently working on: Random Encounters

Per the 101 random encounter ideas, players hear a voice calling for help from the woods. They'll find a petrified rock troll with a glowing sword stuck through its chest, and a skeleton in a suit of mithral full plate held upside-down by its ankle in the rock troll's grasp. The voice is coming from the glowing sword, and it tells the players it's been stuck in the rock troll's chest ever since its last owner got caught fighting a rock troll as dawn broke over the horizon.

The sword will tell them to be very careful coming close because there's a monster lurking nearby that tries to ambush people who attempt to retrieve the sword. It will describe the creature in detail, explaining that it was specifically created to fight this type of monster. Players with high Perception will probably see the monster in question and we'll have combat commence.

The trick is, of course, that the petrified rock troll with the magic sword stuck in it is actually a mimic. Trying to pull the sword out will trigger combat with it, which if the players attempt to do during combat with the other monster will significantly increase the difficulty of the fight. The skeleton in the mithral full plate is real, of course, and represents the actual loot from the encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 02, 2016, 04:20:33 am

So are the monster and the mimic working together, or is it more of a "birds picking things out of crocodile teeth" unspoken symbiosis?

Also, somewhat reminds me of this (http://oglaf.com/banthram/), which is also a pretty decent idea for a D&D random encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 02, 2016, 05:13:54 am

The two are a paired team. The party's level 4, so it's a CR 4 Shriezyx (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/shriezyx) that's been trained by the Mimic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/mimic) to attack humanoids that get close. As a Mimic gets considerable ranks in Knowledge: Dungeoneering, it would know pretty much all there is to know about manipulating the Int 3 Shriezyx into doing what it says, and since it's speaking to the party in Common, the Shriezyx can't understand it's bluffing them out by revealing its ally, since it only speaks Aklo. I also added the CR +0 Bioluminescence mutation to the Mimic so that it can emit light for the glowing sword by RAW.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 02, 2016, 05:17:04 am

As a suggestion if you have the time and will...

Ignore CR adjustments entirely... Ignore "Adding Classes to monsters" CR adjustements as well...

And just apply a new CR to monsters.

If there is one HUGE FREEKEN CREDIT I'll give to 5.0... It realized the old system was bogus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 02, 2016, 05:40:32 am

That method screws up the process of awarding experience, though. I use the Pathfinder experience tables to award XP based on the CR of the encounter or trap, with my players aware that some optional challenges will award experience higher than average for higher CR monsters. I agree it's a flawed system in that a CR 10 Wizard is vastly more challenging than a CR 10 Commoner, but overall it's a decent rule of thumb, especially for pregenerated monsters. Their AC, hit points and saves are usually within the reasonable range for a party of the appropriate level, with only NPC character classes being outliers depending on the DM's investment into their customisation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 02, 2016, 05:52:56 am

Quote from: Jimmy on August 02, 2016, 05:40:32 am

That method screws up the process of awarding experience, though. I use the Pathfinder experience tables to award XP based on the CR of the encounter or trap, with my players aware that some optional challenges will award experience higher than average for higher CR monsters. I agree it's a flawed system in that a CR 10 Wizard is vastly more challenging than a CR 10 Commoner, but overall it's a decent rule of thumb, especially for pregenerated monsters. Their AC, hit points and saves are usually within the reasonable range for a party of the appropriate level, with only NPC character classes being outliers depending on the DM's investment into their customisation.

Uhhhh...???

What I meant was... Instead of applying CR adjustments to monsters for templates and class levels... Just give them the CR for their difficulty.

As for "It is a decent rule of thumb"... Unfortunately it isn't. The CRs when applying CR adjustments typically are no where close to their mark. Especially when templates overwrite the advantages of the creature it is applied to, are extra advantageous for that creature, or what have you.

Pathfinder's only grand advantage is for the most part... yeah even they realized it was bogus and applied to adjustments to the formula themselves. 1) Templates have multiple CR adjustments depending on the HD(or CR) of the base creature... and 2) Class levels only apply in full if the creature itself gets the full advantage.

It is why I praise 5e for going "Yeah, there are no CR Adjustments. Just find out their CR"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on August 02, 2016, 06:15:44 am

How does one "find out a CR" for PF?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 02, 2016, 06:25:05 am

Quote from: Skyrunner on August 02, 2016, 06:15:44 am

How does one "find out a CR" for PF?

I guess calculate their average damage output (factoring in the attack bonus), then compare that, saves and special abilities to creatures of varying CRs to figure out which one it's most comparable to?

Or, failing that, just eyeball it in comparison to things your PCs have been fighting thus far.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 02, 2016, 08:05:36 am

Yeah, I'll just stick to the average formula of "CR = NPC class HD -2 or PC class HD -1" and call it a day. I already spend hours each week preparing the encounters for my players, I'm not going to spend extra time comparing damage output and AC/HP/Saves too.

Random Encounter Idea: As the players camp for the night or are travelling for the day, have them roll Perception checks. They hear a strange wailing sound, DC 16 Spellcraft to identify as an Alarm spell. Three rounds later, an abandoned heavily damaged airship flies overhead.

Need to wait until players have viable means of access to flying object before use of this encounter idea. Options include flying mounts, flight spells or teleportation abilities. Use swarms of flying creatures such as Stymphalides (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/stymphalidies/stymphalides-swarm)as the encounter type should they board the vessel, and treasure could be the magical power core of the ship (treat as a valuable gemstone) or alternatively a treasure chest full of loot. Per SRD, an airship is 20 ft. by 60 ft. in size, so fairly small encounter area. Additional ideas include a reverse gravity spell trap for the underside of the vessel for anyone climbing up a rope if the party try to get everyone on board, or some form of area of effect lightning based damage trap for a damaged power core. Flight mechanisms on airship should be encountered as completely destroyed to avoid the party gaining a 50,000 gp value airship. Removal of power core triggers countdown effect before vessel crashes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on August 02, 2016, 11:24:05 pm

Huge D&D monsters are really, really tiny.

I was considering the size of Monster Hunter monsters (http://www.capcom-unity.com/dubindoh/blog/2014/12/05/mh4u-infographics-highlight-how-big-the-monsters-really-are) and thinking about how large they'd be in a D&D game when I realized that in D&D the maximum size for a creature, Colossal, is 30 feet by 30 feet. D&D ancient wyrm dragons are half as long as a steam locomotive. This is not right. Taking a closer look, a lot of stuff is really, really off; D&D tyrannosauruses should be over twice as long, going by one of the graphics in the linked page, seeing as in D&D they're a mere 15 feet long for some reason.

This is probably just for gameplay--it can't be easy fitting a 12-inch-by-12-inch miniature onto your tabletop--but it doesn't seem right that the Tarrasque is smaller than a train car.

E: It's especially weird considering D&D dungeons are designed with excessively large rooms in mind. Nobody in D&D builds a normal-sized room, they're all like fifty feet by forty feet because  a 10x10 room is too small for a fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2016, 12:05:02 am

Quote from: Tawa on August 02, 2016, 11:24:05 pm

Huge D&D monsters are really, really tiny.

I was considering the size of Monster Hunter monsters (http://www.capcom-unity.com/dubindoh/blog/2014/12/05/mh4u-infographics-highlight-how-big-the-monsters-really-are) and thinking about how large they'd be in a D&D game when I realized that in D&D the maximum size for a creature, Colossal, is 30 feet by 30 feet. D&D ancient wyrm dragons are half as long as a steam locomotive. This is not right. Taking a closer look, a lot of stuff is really, really off; D&D tyrannosauruses should be over twice as long, going by one of the graphics in the linked page, seeing as in D&D they're a mere 15 feet long for some reason.

This is probably just for gameplay--it can't be easy fitting a 12-inch-by-12-inch miniature onto your tabletop--but it doesn't seem right that the Tarrasque is smaller than a train car.

E: It's especially weird considering D&D dungeons are designed with excessively large rooms in mind. Nobody in D&D builds a normal-sized room, they're all like fifty feet by forty feet because  a 10x10 room is too small for a fight.

Unfortunately dungeons and dragons after you get to a certain size goes for more of a... "Interpretable" size once you hit maximum (mostly because otherwise it becomes unmanageable).

As for Huge Monster being small... It is more the type of monsters they are going for. Elephants are Huge. They aren't trying to make all monsters giants into the sky.

As for the T-Rex... Given that they take up a 15ft square and have a 10ft reach... Nope it is all fine. Remember that the dimensions are not the dimensions of the creature but can be thought of as more their area of control.

Now going by the measurements the books give for sizes!

Diablos from Monster Hunter IS! Gargantuan but can push on colossal. Rathalos is... Firmly Gargantuan.

The Statue of Liberty is... Colossal. Not even within Colossal+

But I'll translate the monsters here...

Dalamadur: Colossal+
Dah'ren: Colossal
Nerscyllia: Huge
Seltlas: Huge
Deviljho (seriously? That is its name?... Devil Joe): Colossal (barely, my personal rating is Gargantuan, but definitely at the max)
Gore Magala: Gargantuan

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 03, 2016, 12:25:47 am

what about jhen mohran

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2016, 12:28:58 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on August 03, 2016, 12:25:47 am

what about jhen mohran

Colossal (don't get me wrong the LARGE end of colossal... once you get the colossal+ sizes your basically living locations... Not even an animated Castle is Colossal+)

I should state that this is 3.5

Pathfinder doesn't have Colossal+, and 5e doesn't have anything above Gargantuan. (Mind you, if there are bigger monsters... you default to the biggest regardless).

Jhen Mohran would likely though get the full 50ft area treatment in Pathfinder.

-Edit- Apperantly I am wrong... Colossal+ is within the same 30x30 area... Colossal++ is in the 50x50 area... O_o... Though Colossal+ doesn't really affect anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 03, 2016, 03:03:49 am

Adventure Idea: The dwarven cleric in the group has a rather unique mount. Instead of a heavy war horse like the rest of the group, he's selected a war trained bison. Not a bad choice from a stat perspective, since it's a better CR monster and costs one tenth the amount of a horse. Thematically I make sure to describe how bad it smells and how many flies it attracts to keep the balance compared to the rest of his group, but he's pretty fond of his war cow.

So as a random encounter, I plan to have the group meet a lone traveller in the morning as he walks into their camp at daybreak, a few hours before the group are ready to start travelling. The old traveller asks to share their fire and brew a pot of tea. Assuming they accept the offer, he'll make small talk, then eventually express interest in the cleric's mount. He'll say he's been looking for a reliable steed and the war bison would suit him perfectly, assuming the cleric is willing to trade for it.

So, what's the old traveller offer our cleric in payment?

A handful of magic beans.

Of course, assuming we reach this far without our players getting paranoid and avoiding the encounter entirely, the players will definitely pick up on the obvious Jack and the Beanstalk reference. If they take the deal, the traveller will depart with his new mount, and instruct them to plant the beans at sunset. The next time they strike camp, they'll discover the war cow wandering into their camp, along with a golden holy symbol hanging off the saddle.

Functionally, the beans act as a single use magic item of permanent Teleportation Circle when planted, save that it requires an easy Climb check to ascend up the beanstalk into a permanent cloud at the top, leading of course to a 'dungeon' full of giant typed creatures.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on August 03, 2016, 01:04:08 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on August 03, 2016, 12:05:02 am

As for the T-Rex... Given that they take up a 15ft square and have a 10ft reach... Nope it is all fine.

Hm. I didn't think of factoring in reach. Factoring it in both ways... I guess that's about right. Gives the T-rex 35 feet of reach, and I'd be willing to bump it up a size category or so for bigger ones. I suppose that puts great wyrm red, silver, and gold dragons in a better position (~70 feet).

I'd still have to invent a size category if I were to put the Mohrans or Dalamadur in, though :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2016, 10:38:04 pm

Quote

I'd still have to invent a size category if I were to put the Mohrans or Dalamadur in,

Personally I'd probably just outright not handle them that way.

I mean... the game has stated out Island Turtles (I don't think that was their name) which are entire island habitats on the back of colossal turtles that could swallow ships whole.

But if I made players fight it... I am not sure I'd want to plot a 200x200 figure.

---

I really should start converting the Monster Hunter creatures to 5.0 and/or Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 04, 2016, 03:06:01 pm

After a certain point of size, your players shouldn't really be able to damage them.
Oh, you stabbed the island sized turtle in the fin? Congrats, your sword sank up to the hilt and gave it the equivalent of a mosquito bite. It might even have noticed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 04, 2016, 03:42:19 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 04, 2016, 03:06:01 pm

After a certain point of size, your players shouldn't really be able to damage them.
Oh, you stabbed the island sized turtle in the fin? Congrats, your sword sank up to the hilt and gave it the equivalent of a mosquito bite. It might even have noticed.

It used to be that you couldn't. It was only the fact that your weapons were magic or the implication that you might have found a way to do some damage with your level.

5e REALLY REALLY stands out next to all the dungeons and dragons games that came before in that it is the only one where an army... is an army (and isn't trying to luck into natural 20s to do damage).

Where early dungeons and dragons used to have creatures who were outright immune from attacks from things too weak...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Ghills on August 04, 2016, 03:42:54 pm

Just ran our second Skype session. Lessons learned:

1) Mic in the middle of the table is super necessary, otherwise remote players often can't hear
2) Camera needs to be mobile enough so that it can be moved to show maps. Alternatively, send out maps beforehand
3) I as DM need to up my descriptions.  Rehearse them beforehand or something.

Our barbarian has apparently decided to develop his skill with Improvised Weapon (the fools fighting me).  I've been letting him get away with athletics and acrobatics checks, but if this keeps up for another session he's getting an entry on his character sheet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 04, 2016, 03:44:14 pm

Yeah I don't know why it is about mic sessions but where by text I give a lot of description...

By voice I skip a lot of it... To admit a LOT of it is nervousness and I end up skipping details I wrote long in advance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 04, 2016, 03:53:55 pm

My new Vampire character debuted well!  A cloistered Ventrue servant who, after a long period of time, has finally been tasked with her... journey?  In the journeyman sense.  We couldn't figure out what the word for that is.  I'm sure there's a name for the post-apprenticeship journey which ends with the journeyman returning home and creating a literal masterwork (becoming a master).

Anyway I can't say too much without spoiling.
And I can't say *anything* about the massive reveals which finally dropped about *everything that happened before*, heehee, because they largely involve my previous character and his sire.  But I'm definitely going to write a proper chronicle when this campaign is done.

Suffice to say that certain Mehkanations came to light.  Or DID THEY?  heehee

Also also I'm seriously enjoying New World of Darkness a lot.  I loved staying up all night crunching builds in 3.5e and we told some good stories (some of which I shared (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151000.msg6302069#msg6302069), and which I should probably attempt to compile too) but this seems like a better fit for me.
But again, we did have to deal with a really broken player character who was breaking rules.
And it wasn't Pathfinder (Pathfinder blows my mind though, even coming from 3.5e)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on August 04, 2016, 04:03:09 pm

"Journeyman years", according to Wikipedia. Traditionally, the trip is 3 years long.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 04, 2016, 04:43:59 pm

I guess that's it, we couldn't find a better word.  It's probably an elegant combi-word in German.
From what I remember searching it last night sober, it was actually not necessarily a thing?  A lot of people probably went directly from apprenticeship to forging their masterwork.

Anyway, as matter of fact as possible...
Our haven was bombed by some Ventrue we hadn't met (my new character) who naturally then consented to mindwipe by her Master.  During daylight, which is tough for vampires who have forgotten their human lives.

Our Gangrel was in our haven at the time.  Despite her extraordinarily low humanity, she managed to clumsily and groggily crawl away from the collapsing floor into the shelter of an enclosed stairwell.  The monster lives.

My new Ventrue character then watched with disgust as our Ventrue [Malkavian scum] was briefed by her Master.  Her high composure kept her from speaking out of turn, but she was even more terse than usual when she had to exchange pleasantries.

Ms. Amanda has not paid her Invictus dues, the crazy bitch.  It was troubling to watch her be tortured for 15 minutes until her main personality surfaced...  But only slightly.  There but for the Master's grace goes Eleanor. 

Malkavia:  Not even once.

Quote from: Neonivek on August 04, 2016, 03:44:14 pm

Yeah I don't know why it is about mic sessions but where by text I give a lot of description...

By voice I skip a lot of it... To admit a LOT of it is nervousness and I end up skipping details I wrote long in advance.

3-4 years ago I only knew text RP.  But I've adjusted to voice.  Recently I tried to show a friend NWoD and was stymied because I couldn't convey via text like I used to.  It felt awkward, just as voice chat felt incredibly awkward at first.
I think I prefer text, honestly.  I don't do voices well at all.  But a good group has much suspension of disbelief, which makes it okay.  I'd rather be typing prose, but only barely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 04, 2016, 04:51:26 pm

I know it's not adding much to the conversation but:
On text versus voice, Text lets you get out way more descriptions letting you tell a more in-depth story.  While voice lets you convey emotions through tone, reading style and such.  Personally I prefer voice, mostly just so that you don't need to be on the text page reading it constantly to stay in the story.  I used to really hate losing out on what was happening while i looked up a spell or made a cup of coffee.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 04, 2016, 05:02:26 pm

I mostly agree with you, voice is great for conveying tone.  Even if you can't do a "voice", it conveys tone better than text does (even though text can convey tone through poetic license and word choice and such).

But I have to comment on that last sentence.  Text makes it easier to catch up.  Voice does naturally alert you, but with even 1 point in computers (as a player) you'll get a beep notification when someone posts.  Or email or whatever (I haven't done forum RP beyond RTD).  Text is better for being distracted and then going back and catching up.

Otherwise you have to try and remember through various hazes, and possibly ask.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 04, 2016, 05:58:02 pm

Yeah absolutely true, I was mostly referring to the sort of 'sit down and play for 3-4 hour' sessions that are more like pre-computer table top games.   For those, I've had way more instances than I care to remember where trying to do text (especially in combat) and someone's not responding or saying anything, only to have them then go 'afk' on steam, skype, ect.  Eventually they may or may not come back but I've found that giving people an excuse to not be totally invested 'you can come back and catch up anytime' just tends to make torturous sessions for people who actually are invested.

That said, if you have a group who can do it (everyone needs to be able to multitask I'd say to some degree), text and typing works wonderfully since you get the best of both worlds.  Type down critical events, information, dialogue and then say the fluff details like what the weather is, or how the food tastes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 04, 2016, 06:10:49 pm

craic?
Is that IC?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 04, 2016, 06:24:03 pm

It hadn't hit my circle of contacts yet, but still.
I like it.
Thanks (:

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sambojin on August 04, 2016, 06:56:05 pm

Pathguy's 5e character creator is back up. I don't know how long it's been like this, but all the "greyed out" options now work again. They used to unselect themselves, but now they don't. He must have forgotten to code in that bit in this version :)

So full PHB, DMG, EE (but no SCAG) character creation is possible.

Try it out:

http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm

Seems to work on all android mobile and win7 browsers, so probably everything.

I've made two The Wayback Machine copies, one 31/7/2016 and one today, in case he remembers to change the js back to what it was.

Rejoice!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 04, 2016, 07:38:04 pm

The Horror Adventures book and the Legacy of Dragons splatbook for Pathfinder have both become available for sale.

I like dragons. Horror Adventures is good, but the Corruptions system is underwhelming. "Become a monster at the cost of your very soul!" was what was advertised. It didn't mention that once you are a monster, you automatically give up control of your character to the DM because you aren't allowed to play as monsters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 04, 2016, 07:43:51 pm

Losing control of your character at full corruption or insanity etc is pretty common, otherwise a lot of people would probably completely ignore the whole supposed-to-be-a-monster bit and just have the benefits of monsterhood. The whole losing-yourself theme doesn't really work if you don't actually lose yourself at the end.

But I've not read any pathfinder stuff, really, and certainly not those books, so I don't know any details.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on August 04, 2016, 07:48:15 pm

It makes sense--going insane is the traditional method of "death" in CoC, for instance, and letting a player play an insane character is just asking for them to troll the other players by being Stupid Evil. But it's at odds with what was advertised; the tense used in the tagline implies you get to keep playing your character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 04, 2016, 07:57:38 pm

They just came out today.

Corruptions come in a bunch of different flavours, with 11 different monster types to choose from. They are meant for players to actually emulate monsters, but you risk losing your characters, and have some poorly explained reasons. There are three "Corruption" stages, and nefarious actions can cause you to gain another stage, which vary by corruption. For example, Ghouls can advance it by eating innocent people. At stage 3, you lose your character, no exceptions.

One is that you want to become a Lich, and slowly turn undead. At stage 3 of Corruption, you successfully become a Lich by dying and having allies bring you back with a Miracle or Wish. And you have to give up your character, because you are now Evil and Undead.

Another is the Promethean, which turns you into a Construct. At stage 3, you have so little living material for your soul to cling to, it simply disconnects from your body. But your body is still alive, albeit a mindless, true Neutral Construct. Why can't you just roleplay a mech that just belongs to the party, like some sort of unholy abomination of a party mascot? With no mind, it just goes "Beep boop, kill everything" like its some sort of Terminator.

It just doesn't make sense, since in this same book is a complete rewrite of the insanity system, explicitly so that insanity is no longer an end of a character. It also implements a sanity system for Horror oriented games. Things can deal sanity damage and stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 04, 2016, 11:56:54 pm

Re: Corruption and Insanity, one day I hope to get the opportunity to play an Old Man Henderson (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Old_Man_Henderson).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 05, 2016, 07:50:15 am

The ghoul losing control I can kind of get. 

The lich makes very little sense seeing as how if you were say.... an evil necromancer in the first place it's not like anythings changed except you know, more power.

The Promethean while I guess I'm 50/50 on it, if you are gonna lose your character via aforementioned soul disconnect you should at least be allowed to then be resurrected since you know... your soul is floating around without a body effectively meaning you are dead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2016, 08:42:12 am

It depends on the edition.

Originally the Lich was such an imposition on the natural path of life that it was ultimately corrupting.

In newer editions the ritual to create a Lich was corrupted intentionally so that anyone who becomes one becomes outright evil.

Edit: Whoops, yeah already being evil... >_>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on August 05, 2016, 03:12:17 pm

I've come up with some basic idea for my campaign. Small kingdom between a sea, a mountain range and deserts. The court wizard has discovered ancient ruins under the capital. The ruins are the focal point for some leylines used by an ancient and mighty empire. These leylines are focused by various ancient ruins scattered across the borders of the Kingdom, which are, naturally, inactive. The court wizard wants to use these leylines to become a god.

Not really sure how I'll make an adventure out of this. I intend for the wizard to appear as a mentor at first, not even mentioned as the court wizard.

Sort of looking for criticism or advice on this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Tawa on August 05, 2016, 03:27:07 pm

Seems like an interesting idea, can definitely see potential for fun times there.

That said, the court wizard is like the king's advisor: everyone expects him to be the bad guy. I'd suggest doing something to make him not seem like the villain at first; perhaps throwing the players a red herring by making it look like some other guy is the real villain, then have him get offed by the court wizard halfway through the plot. Possibly a freelance Saruman clone, or the king's actual advisor. Or maybe make the court wizard seem like some kind of doddering old fool, or a generally nonthreatening early-books-Dumbledore-style figure.

As for setting up the adventure... personally, I like to wait until my players have their characters built, then fish around in their backstories for NPCs who can drag them into the campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 05, 2016, 04:47:42 pm

You could always have him not publically be the court wizard at all, but have the players bump into someone familiarly-regal-looking in a hooded cloak who is hurried away by bodyguards while visiting him in the middle of the night.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on August 05, 2016, 05:02:14 pm

Really, the antagonist part is the thing im least certain about, after the initial tie-in. I originally started with trying to copy the Mule from the Foundation series, but I'm not *that* attached to the idea. But yes, the idea was to keep his court-wizardness hidden for a while.

Really, my idea for the tie-in was "wizard introduces party to old archaeologist friend, travel to one of the leyline ruins, clear dungeon, accidentally activate leyline". Obviously later ruins would be far more involved, but all of my players are new, and this seems like a decent introduction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2016, 05:12:57 pm

I mean, I guess it is serviceable.

Though I am biased since that is just about the exact same plotline as Broken Sword 3 and that was a REALLY bad and REALLY non-sense game.

What you need to do is sort of establish the court magician I guess... Build him up, give him some gravitas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on August 05, 2016, 06:45:53 pm

If he's based off of the Mule, why not make him a court jester instead?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 06, 2016, 01:21:14 am

Quote from: Kadzar on August 05, 2016, 06:45:53 pm

If he's based off of the Mule, why not make him a court jester instead?

Which come to think of it... Dungeons and dragons tends not to actually do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on August 06, 2016, 08:29:54 am

Just got back from Dragonfire (one of two or three decent sized local cons), where I was playing a PFS game. We had a paladin (me), a cavalier (with a horseless spec), who was level 2 and kind of carried things, an arcanist (somewhat minmaxed, and yet somehow useless in combat), a pacifist monk (we had a good time being both the morals and the muscles of the party), and a wizard.

We were helping someone quit a shady organisation without dying, and also trying to stop them setting up a massive drug operation.

So first, we tracked down the guy making the drugs in a sewer. After the cavalier roughed up a completely drugged-out wretch, we managed to peacefully find out from his other test subjects where he probably was. A very short while later we ganked him at the end of a corridor, successfully dropping him and then stabilising him (I and the monk were the only ones who cared about keeping him alive. The arcanist at least didn't feel it was a waste of time).

That was where things stopped being straight forward! We were also commisioned to prevent a meeting between two people. We knew when and where... but not who.

So we went to the tavern, and shenanigans began to ensue. This was the plan: we wait quietly. As soon as the meeting begins, we hit the pair with Sleep, claim to know them, and carry them out. Then we empty their pockets and dump them on opposite sides of the city, so each believed the other had set them up.

That didn't happen.

Plan B was to toss a smokestick somewhere hidden, and spirit the two away in the confusion. Somehow, this got mixed into Plan A. And the cavalier horribly botched her attempt to hide the smokestick, I and the wizard horribly botched distracting the barkeep, and the arcanist put the monk to sleep as well by mistake.

"Give me one good reason I shouldn't call the guard right now," Asks the bartender.

"There's a fire! Fire!" Shouts the arcanist.

"What the hell do you keep in your store, man? Something in that smoke's putting people right out!" I say.

He's not convinced. So the arcanist puts him out too. Except he resists it. So the arcanist puts him out again.

Finally, we've disrupted the meeting and the bartender's out of the way, but the dockworkers that were in the inn for lunch are... unruly. The cavalier shouts: "Drinks on the house for everyone!" She lures them outside with the drinks, and she and the monk keep them distracted while we restrain and sneak out the targets.

Then we plant half a pint of oil and a flint and steel on the more nefarious of the two. Safety first, folks. If you must stage an arson attempt, stage it well. (For the record, the tavern's owner was engaged in a significant quantity of illicit activity. This is why a paladin was okay with some of the stunts).

Then we pawned the stolen goods and donated the money to a temple of Iomedae to care for the drug addicts. A measure of justice.

Yeah, we weren't the most effective squad. Some time later, we got into a drawn out fight with some other agents. Reach weapons are pretty decent! I was frustrating a monk no end by keeping her at a glaive's length almost all the time, forcing her to either only five-foot-step or provoke.

Unfortunately two of the party went below 0 and I almost did too. As the only one able to use a wand of Cure Light Wounds reliably. Fortunately, things panned out okay with some good rolls.

So, in summary, not the most competent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 08:42:09 am

Quote from: Kadzar on August 05, 2016, 06:45:53 pm

If he's based off of the Mule, why not make him a court jester instead?

Well, it's harder for a jester to manipulate the party than a wise old wizard :V

I'd have to go all the way and frame the king as evil from the start, which is eh. I sort of want to hint at a conspiracy for a little bit before I reveal even a "fake" villain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 06, 2016, 10:04:24 am

Quote from: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 08:42:09 am

Well, it's harder for a jester to manipulate the party than a wise old wizard :V

I'd have to go all the way and frame the king as evil from the start, which is eh. I sort of want to hint at a conspiracy for a little bit before I reveal even a "fake" villain.

You could have the villains not be Evil. Maybe the wise old wizard is actually Chaotic Good. It's just that he really wants to become a god to do more good in the world. And then you can pile up evidence about his secret ambitions to become a god that he feels incredibly awkward and suspicious talking about because he has had experience with that very conversation.

EDIT: Better yet, have the king cover for him with stuff like "nonsense, this man has been my trusted loyal friend since you were but a gleam in your father's eye - I trust completely in his good intentions" when the players try to push him on it with dire warnings when the wizard's goal becomes clear to the party. Have the king be neutral. And maybe let the players eventually sway him into turning on his old friend when the evidence starts to pile up, at which point the wizard presumably makes a dramatic escape.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Oneir on August 06, 2016, 10:21:09 am

Quote from: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 08:42:09 am

Quote from: Kadzar on August 05, 2016, 06:45:53 pm

If he's based off of the Mule, why not make him a court jester instead?

Well, it's harder for a jester to manipulate the party than a wise old wizard :V

I dunno, a jester could be both surprisingly well-informed and harmless. If you played up the comedy a little without getting on the player's nerves, he could come across as just this friendly, harmless guy who works really closely with the king. That gives him a good excuse to now all the juicy rumors, and if you can get across the idea that a jester exists to be helpful foil to the king they might believe he's trying to do good by the kingdom in ways a regular courtier couldn't. Basically the total opposite of the classic vizier, power behind the throne wizard.

Another alternative is to make him basically Merlin, Gandalf, or Dumbledore. If he's goofy and supportive, it might be less obvious he's going to stab you in the back while sucking on a werther's original.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 10:24:31 am

Why not have the court wizard and the jester be the same person?  I mean wizards can specialize in things that aren't evocation.  A grand illusionist could make for a pretty impressive arch-villain due to the sheer level of mind-buggery that he could get up to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 06, 2016, 02:53:06 pm

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 10:24:31 am

Why not have the court wizard and the jester be the same person?  I mean wizards can specialize in things that aren't evocation.  A grand illusionist could make for a pretty impressive arch-villain due to the sheer level of mind-buggery that he could get up to.

Now where did I see this before? Ohh right :P Quest for Glory

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 06, 2016, 03:23:46 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on August 06, 2016, 02:53:06 pm

Now where did I see this before? Ohh right :P Quest for Glory

If there's one great way to seem original and fresh, it's to crib things from Quest for Glory, and I'm not even kidding on that one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on August 06, 2016, 03:24:46 pm

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 10:24:31 am

Why not have the court wizard and the jester be the same person?  I mean wizards can specialize in things that aren't evocation.  A grand illusionist could make for a pretty impressive arch-villain due to the sheer level of mind-buggery that he could get up to.

Well, the idea of being a jester is that it makes the villain someone who escapes notice. If magic is prevalent enough that an illusionist wizard fits that description, that's fine, though wizards are known to be smart, so he probably can't easily play the part of the (in this case, literal) fool.

Unless you're saying he should be a secret illusionist? Because, yeah, when I said he should maybe he should be a court jester, I didn't mean he should put all his levels in some sort of jester class or something. He could easily be a wizard disguised as a jester, because, as far as I know (I'm almost certain someone will correct me on this) there isn't anything in D&D that will easily reveal someone as a magic user if they aren't actively casting spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Oneir on August 06, 2016, 03:57:24 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on August 06, 2016, 03:24:46 pm

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 10:24:31 am

Why not have the court wizard and the jester be the same person?  I mean wizards can specialize in things that aren't evocation.  A grand illusionist could make for a pretty impressive arch-villain due to the sheer level of mind-buggery that he could get up to.

Well, the idea of being a jester is that it makes the villain someone who escapes notice. If magic is prevalent enough that an illusionist wizard fits that description, that's fine, though wizards are known to be smart, so he probably can't easily play the part of the (in this case, literal) fool.

What if the jester is an illusion? Or a simulacrum or something. I guess at that point there's no reason for them to specifically be a jester except that one might be fun to have around. (any maybe a literally disposable jester could do ridiculous Evel Knievel capers? I dunno.)

Quote

Unless you're saying he should be a secret illusionist? Because, yeah, when I said he should maybe he should be a court jester, I didn't mean he should put all his levels in some sort of jester class or something. He could easily be a wizard disguised as a jester, because, as far as I know (I'm almost certain someone will correct me on this) there isn't anything in D&D that will easily reveal someone as a magic user if they aren't actively casting spells.

I think in some editions a cleric or paladin will have a strong aura of their god's alignment, but I don't think magic users are intrinsically obvious in D&D, no. As long as they leave their spellbooks and items of phenomenal cosmic power at home, anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 04:57:09 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 06, 2016, 10:04:24 am

Quote from: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 08:42:09 am

Well, it's harder for a jester to manipulate the party than a wise old wizard :V

I'd have to go all the way and frame the king as evil from the start, which is eh. I sort of want to hint at a conspiracy for a little bit before I reveal even a "fake" villain.

You could have the villains not be Evil. Maybe the wise old wizard is actually Chaotic Good. It's just that he really wants to become a god to do more good in the world. And then you can pile up evidence about his secret ambitions to become a god that he feels incredibly awkward and suspicious talking about because he has had experience with that very conversation.

EDIT: Better yet, have the king cover for him with stuff like "nonsense, this man has been my trusted loyal friend since you were but a gleam in your father's eye - I trust completely in his good intentions" when the players try to push him on it with dire warnings when the wizard's goal becomes clear to the party. Have the king be neutral. And maybe let the players eventually sway him into turning on his old friend when the evidence starts to pile up, at which point the wizard presumably makes a dramatic escape.

Eh, having a not-Evil antagonist doesn't seem that great of an idea for my first campaign :P Evil antagonists are safe, because at the end of the day you can still smash their face, no matter how the adventure goes.

The king covering for the antagonist is a good idea.

Quote from: Oneir on August 06, 2016, 10:21:09 am

Quote from: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 08:42:09 am

Quote from: Kadzar on August 05, 2016, 06:45:53 pm

If he's based off of the Mule, why not make him a court jester instead?

Well, it's harder for a jester to manipulate the party than a wise old wizard :V

I dunno, a jester could be both surprisingly well-informed and harmless. If you played up the comedy a little without getting on the player's nerves, he could come across as just this friendly, harmless guy who works really closely with the king. That gives him a good excuse to now all the juicy rumors, and if you can get across the idea that a jester exists to be helpful foil to the king they might believe he's trying to do good by the kingdom in ways a regular courtier couldn't. Basically the total opposite of the classic vizier, power behind the throne wizard.

Another alternative is to make him basically Merlin, Gandalf, or Dumbledore. If he's goofy and supportive, it might be less obvious he's going to stab you in the back while sucking on a werther's original.

"basically Gandalf" was what I was tending to anyway. But that sort of jester seems like it would lean pretty close to some sort of spymaster, which then is a pretty obvious villain candiate.

Quote from: Neonivek on August 06, 2016, 02:53:06 pm

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 10:24:31 am

Why not have the court wizard and the jester be the same person?  I mean wizards can specialize in things that aren't evocation.  A grand illusionist could make for a pretty impressive arch-villain due to the sheer level of mind-buggery that he could get up to.

Now where did I see this before? Ohh right :P Quest for Glory

the entire idea for the campaign is various ideas ripped from various places stitched together. i stole the plan of the antagonist from fullmetal alchemist.

Quote from: Kadzar on August 06, 2016, 03:24:46 pm

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 10:24:31 am

Why not have the court wizard and the jester be the same person?  I mean wizards can specialize in things that aren't evocation.  A grand illusionist could make for a pretty impressive arch-villain due to the sheer level of mind-buggery that he could get up to.

Well, the idea of being a jester is that it makes the villain someone who escapes notice. If magic is prevalent enough that an illusionist wizard fits that description, that's fine, though wizards are known to be smart, so he probably can't easily play the part of the (in this case, literal) fool.

Unless you're saying he should be a secret illusionist? Because, yeah, when I said he should maybe he should be a court jester, I didn't mean he should put all his levels in some sort of jester class or something. He could easily be a wizard disguised as a jester, because, as far as I know (I'm almost certain someone will correct me on this) there isn't anything in D&D that will easily reveal someone as a magic user if they aren't actively casting spells.

but then again, the easiest idea seems to be to just make him a wizard outright. he doesn't even have to use magic, just dress like a wizard and have people refer to him as a wizard (e.g. gandalf for the first half of lotr), and friendly mentor wizard is a trope my players are probably familiar with.

Quote from: Oneir on August 06, 2016, 03:57:24 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on August 06, 2016, 03:24:46 pm

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 10:24:31 am

Why not have the court wizard and the jester be the same person?  I mean wizards can specialize in things that aren't evocation.  A grand illusionist could make for a pretty impressive arch-villain due to the sheer level of mind-buggery that he could get up to.

Well, the idea of being a jester is that it makes the villain someone who escapes notice. If magic is prevalent enough that an illusionist wizard fits that description, that's fine, though wizards are known to be smart, so he probably can't easily play the part of the (in this case, literal) fool.

What if the jester is an illusion? Or a simulacrum or something. I guess at that point there's no reason for them to specifically be a jester except that one might be fun to have around. (any maybe a literally disposable jester could do ridiculous Evel Knievel capers? I dunno.)

this is probably going too deep. i don't need *that* many layers of "all according to keikaku" in my campaign :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on August 06, 2016, 05:18:13 pm

Re story tips for first campaign:

You don't really need it all figured out beforehand. You just need a good enough idea for the first few sessions and a general idea for the overarching plot, but the characters that fill it can be swapped about fairly easily without the players ever knowing. In fact, if they do some detective work and figure out someone is a villain, they can sometimes come up with a better villain/plot than you ever could :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Oneir on August 06, 2016, 05:28:36 pm

Quote from: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 04:57:09 pm

Quote

What if the jester is an illusion? Or a simulacrum or something. I guess at that point there's no reason for them to specifically be a jester except that one might be fun to have around. (any maybe a literally disposable jester could do ridiculous Evel Knievel capers? I dunno.)

this is probably going too deep. i don't need *that* many layers of "all according to keikaku" in my campaign :v

Nonsense! there's always room for more keikaku. When in doubt, make the dog the mastermind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on August 06, 2016, 05:33:49 pm

Quote from: Oneir on August 06, 2016, 05:28:36 pm

Quote from: miauw62 on August 06, 2016, 04:57:09 pm

Quote

What if the jester is an illusion? Or a simulacrum or something. I guess at that point there's no reason for them to specifically be a jester except that one might be fun to have around. (any maybe a literally disposable jester could do ridiculous Evel Knievel capers? I dunno.)

this is probably going too deep. i don't need *that* many layers of "all according to keikaku" in my campaign :v

Nonsense! there's always room for more keikaku. When in doubt, make the dog the mastermind.

When DMing I always make sure to have a reason prepared for a doppelganger to infiltrate any of the major organisations just in case I get caught short :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 06:26:20 pm

Everyone but the player characters are doppelgangers, and the culmination of the adventure is that they too are in fact doppelgangers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 06, 2016, 06:41:11 pm

I feel like this was posted recently, but w/e (nsfw comic)
http://oglaf.com/kingshaped/

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 06, 2016, 06:50:02 pm

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 06:26:20 pm

Everyone but the player characters are doppelgangers, and the culmination of the adventure is that they too are in fact doppelgangers.

Thanks :P A Night In Illsmouth

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 06, 2016, 06:54:32 pm

Quote from: Arx on August 06, 2016, 08:29:54 am

...

So, in summary, not the most competent.

I'd have had a blast if those were my players in that game. Actually having a plan other than 'roll for initiative and hit it until it stops moving' would be a refreshing change.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 06, 2016, 11:56:35 pm

A player won't be able to play in person very often any more, and wants to start a game over Roll20. Never used that before.

He also mentioned wanting everyone to take a turn DMing, every once in a while. Another thing I've never done, and wouldn't know where to start. Creating an entire world would be the hardest part, probably. I have a bunch of random DF stories I could convert, I guess. My Necromayor is still my favourite DF mishap, and would be pretty easy to turn into a side-story.

Goden would actually be a pretty good tragic character, using the new Corruption system, with him unwillingly Corrupted with Lichdom.

Anyways, this session was dominated by dirty jokes. We got a fair bit of stuff done, thankfully. But the Arcanist's player was away, so we went through practically blind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on August 07, 2016, 12:34:48 am

If you're used to playing in person, roll20 will be a lot slower if you type, and a lot more chaotic if you use voice chat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on August 07, 2016, 11:19:31 am

Quote from: kilakan on August 06, 2016, 06:26:20 pm

Everyone but the player characters are doppelgangers, and the culmination of the adventure is that they too are in fact doppelgangers.

Y'know, I reckon this could actually work pretty well. A doppelganger prison in which they're mindwiped to believe they're their current forms. Shit starts to get muddled up with different guards playing different parts and slowly cluing the party in to everyone else being doppelgangers before the big reveal. Bonus points if you can get them to kill anyone who tries to help them escape out of sheer paranoia.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on August 07, 2016, 03:46:12 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on August 06, 2016, 11:56:35 pm

He also mentioned wanting everyone to take a turn DMing, every once in a while. Another thing I've never done, and wouldn't know where to start. Creating an entire world would be the hardest part, probably. I have a bunch of random DF stories I could convert, I guess. My Necromayor is still my favourite DF mishap, and would be pretty easy to turn into a side-story.

My D&D group does this. The most important things are having good communication and being able to accept the things other DMs add to the world (or at least reach some kind of consensus). Some problems are that there might be some differences in how different DMs run things (you'll probably agree on some kind of houserules, but there will always be differences at least in how different DMs make rulings), you might be tempted to change some things another DM added on your turn (but you have to remember that, even though you're the one currently running it, it's not just your game or setting. You should confer with the other DM before changing it), and timing (other DMs need to know when their turn is coming up so they're prepared. In some ways I feel like this makes our campaigns feel rushed, as we're always asking how long until the current one is finished.)

What's nice, though, is that we all get a chance to run things we've wanted to do, we get practice DMing (no one in our group has much DMing experience, which is part of why we're doing this), everyone gets a chance to play, and we all get to contribute to our collective imaginary world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on August 09, 2016, 09:34:40 pm

I think one of my favorite otherworldly locations in fiction that I'd love to do dungeons and dragons...

Is the Earth Realm (part of a game I forgot the name of again)

Now how the Earth Realm worked is that the entire universe is composed mostly of rock with air pockets being the places where people live.

Kind of a shame otherworldy adventures are usually out of reach for the average player because they present so many roleplaying opportunities.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on August 10, 2016, 07:11:43 am

I mean there's literally nothing stopping you from saying that the game starts at level 1 in a cavern in the Earth Realms....

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2016, 09:45:16 am

And besides that, having otherworldly DnD adventures is literally the entire point of the Planescape setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 10, 2016, 09:56:23 am

Yeah.  The way TheSpoonyOne described it, any doorway in Sigil can randomly and invisibly lead to a fun plane.  I wonder if it's a roll, sounds more like a GM tool though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 10, 2016, 11:39:19 am

Sigil portals are basically a plot device.  No rolling, not to say you can't though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 10, 2016, 12:08:56 pm

The 5e game I was running here, didn't get very far for a couple of reasons, but it was planned to be a multiplanar thing - the players were going to be transported to one of the realms of the various afterlives, ruined by the battles between the pantheons, and have to work their way through the planes in order to find their way back.

There was also a small chance every time they teleported between planes they'd be shunted to a plane called Tumbletown, which is basically a horrible shanty town of mutated castaways were physics doesn't really work, and those who stary there too long become mutanted wretches themselves. It being an afterlife, still (sucks if you go there!), they were also going to encounter the ork from one of the player's backstories, who had risen to become chief of part of it, and was now a monster with a grudge for being killed.

What could have been, and all that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on August 10, 2016, 05:32:29 pm

My p;referred method of starting otherworldly adventures is with a TPK :P

Honestly works pretty well tho, especially if you can trick the players into selling their souls in the process (thus ensuring they all go to the same afterlife).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on August 10, 2016, 09:05:55 pm

Our vampire party has always been pretty self destructive, but usually not so literally.  Our Malkavian Ventrue is being targeted by a blood hunt, and wants to disguise herself as a Nosferatu.  After romping through the sewers for a while, she decides to... cut her face to ribbons.

"Can it be bludgeoning tho?"  "Well... it's a knife."
"What if I shot myself in the face?"  "...Yeah... that would actually do bludgeoning instead of lethal..."
...
"Okay!  I'm going to take this boulder and hit myself in the face a lot!"

Thing is she only has one unit of health left, the rest is aggravated damage (various tortures, then driving a car into a house at 70mph).  We eventually decided she already looks like a Nosferatu.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 14, 2016, 02:24:41 am

Started a new campaign today. Party is two Rangers (one a beast master, one a two weapon fighter), a wizard going spellblade, and a light cleric. To make it easy on the party, since we have three newbies, I have a DMPC tank based on Kenny from South Park (a revenant who has died too many times and just wishes to stay dead).

Party accepted a quest to search for artifacts in a crypt that has undead there. They meet with the first person to get there who is infected with a slower, more painful version of necrosis. He gives the party a quest to get him a potion of cure disease, and that's the first thing the party goes to do.

First encounter is against 2 cockatrices. The melee ranger gets bit and petrified for 24 hours. Party takes a long rest at the town after evading another encounter, and they meet the apothecary who says she'll give them the potion for free if they get her the ingredients. Ingredients are guarded by four giant wolf spiders who ambush the party. The party beastmaster tries to tame it but gets it sniped by the other ranger. Beastmaster tries to take it from him and crits the roll, he now has a giant wolf spider.

They return the goods and the party explores the town a bit. They go and find a bounty board that has a quest to find a missing child, and the LG wizard says to go for it right away, and they do. The party makes it to a den that normally was abandoned but was now taken up by spiders. They walk in and get ambushed right away by two giant wolf spiders who drop on them. Drops one to 0 and the other one to 1hp. The party manages to kill them quickly and the guy at 0 crit fails his death save. Counts as two failures, and then they get him back up.

The party finds farther in the cave two swarms of spiders who they manage to scare off one after setting them on fire and completely torching the other one. They go into the boss room where a giant spider is and the spider swarm. The party tries to distract the spider, which succeeds but it does nothing helpful, and so the beastmaster ranger runs in and tries to tame the giant spider. He succeeds once of three times but fails right after. Other ranger tries and just fails, and they try to knock it out, but the giant spider bites the beastmaster and drops him to -6hp. He then fails his last death save. Dead ranger.

Wizard says "fuck this shit, no taming spiders" and does a fuckload of damage to the giant spider and kills it with a lightning chromatic orb. The cleric kills the spider swarm and they find a scroll of revivify (because I didn't want to be mean to the newbie and kill him right away) and they revived him. The party then goes back to town, and return the child, and then I forgot to reward them, and they run into an old warrior who wishes to die in battle.

That's when we ended; with a Jojo's Bizarre Adventure style To Be Continued...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 14, 2016, 03:25:10 am

Nice going Highmax! That's a lot of spiders, did one of the rangers have Favoured Enemy: Vermin by any chance? Any reason the child was in the spider cave?

My group of players fell for my mimic encounter hook, line and sinker. They still beat the CR: 7 equivalent encounter at APL: 4 without too much difficulty, so I think I'm fine to keep throwing higher than average monsters at them for the time being. The samurai loves his new set of mithral full plate too, though I've said that until he gets it properly resized, it will count as being donned hastily for the penalty to wear it (AC and ACP 1 worse than normal).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 14, 2016, 03:39:33 am

Quote from: Jimmy on August 14, 2016, 03:25:10 am

Any reason the child was in the spider cave?

Adopted by wolf spiders.

Would be pretty funny to actually see a giant wolf spider carrying a human child on its back amid a whole mess of attached spiderlings. Also an interesting challenge for PCs to potentially navigate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on August 14, 2016, 04:19:16 am

Reward with a friendly contact in town perhaps? Or some kind of story hook if you can work one in? After all, child adopted by spiders could lead to an interesting plot :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 14, 2016, 06:58:04 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on August 14, 2016, 04:19:16 am

Reward with a friendly contact in town perhaps? Or some kind of story hook if you can work one in? After all, child adopted by spiders could lead to an interesting plot :P

Well, if someone runs a game on the forums here, I know what kind of character I'd make for it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 14, 2016, 08:18:18 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 14, 2016, 03:39:33 am

Quote from: Jimmy on August 14, 2016, 03:25:10 am

Any reason the child was in the spider cave?

Adopted by wolf spiders.

Would be pretty funny to actually see a giant wolf spider carrying a human child on its back amid a whole mess of attached spiderlings. Also an interesting challenge for PCs to potentially navigate.

It was gonna be the small village respects the party more and they get 50 silver a piece (5 gold because this is a poorer town).

The child usually plays there (not in the den but in the area) with his friends, and the area was deemed safe at first, but the spiders came recently since they wander the forest often. So the child was playing by himself when it happened.

Quote from: Jimmy on August 14, 2016, 03:25:10 am

Nice going Highmax! That's a lot of spiders, did one of the rangers have Favoured Enemy: Vermin by any chance? Any reason the child was in the spider cave?

My group of players fell for my mimic encounter hook, line and sinker. They still beat the CR: 7 equivalent encounter at APL: 4 without too much difficulty, so I think I'm fine to keep throwing higher than average monsters at them for the time being. The samurai loves his new set of mithral full plate too, though I've said that until he gets it properly resized, it will count as being donned hastily for the penalty to wear it (AC and ACP 1 worse than normal).

The two weapon ranged actually found out his favored enemy was beasts (which counted for spiders) and he forgot about it until after the other ranger died and the wizard kicked the shit out of the big spider.

I also forgot to mention I have random encounter tables, and I rolled for the wolf spiders and the spider den for both. It's also why I'm hoping next session the party runs into the 10 or the 14 roll encounter, because 10 is a wyrmling battle and 14 is a side adventure where the party deals with a cursed farmstead.

I also forgot to mention she was very reluctant at first to take the first quest, and so the beastmaster ranger rolls to convince her. Nat 20. I told she is so convinced that she needs to take this quest that she literally storms off to go tell the questgiver she accepts. And she just runs across town, past everything and everyone and she kicks the door open, goes to the guy, slams her hands on the table Pheonix Wright style and shouts "I WILL TAKE THE QUEST!". Rest of the party takes a minute to catch up, but they do, and thus began their journey.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 14, 2016, 09:12:45 pm

Was short 2 players last session, but had one new player joining us. It was almost all roleplaying, so my big dumb Fighter with his paltry Class Skill list couldn't really help.

We had to go to a city to ally with their Council. We got into a fancy party one of the council members was hosting. Tons of checks to earn Banquet Points to earn her favour. We are following a pre-made adventure path, this isn't the DM just being funny. Didn't stop us from referring to it as Brownie Points.

Our Rogue was away, which is a shame, as most of the checks were stuff a Rogue would be good at. We needed sleight of hand checks, perception checks, and various knowledges to even attempt to eat the food. Then there were social skill checks to deal with. Some real high DCs, too; as high as 30 at times. Luckily we still got enough to impress her, thanks to the Swashbuckler getting most of the social checks with ease.

Thankfully the Orc player wasn't there that session, as he intentionally attempts to ruin social interactions in the game: he's playing a Chaotic-Neutral, dumb, violent, "pillage-and-rape" style Orc. He really should be Evil, with how he's been acting.

The hostess not only completely outclasses the players at this point (level 19 Witch versus level 7 players), but she will outright kill disruptive party members if they keep acting up after she's warned them and tried using enchantments on them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on August 14, 2016, 10:46:18 pm

Had another session today with a different group and those of you who remember me talking about it, this is the one with my Vigilante. And oh god, this was proof we would make terrible investigators...

So the party is myself, two officers and two people taken from the local mafia. My character does not trust the Mafiosos at all, but the mayor of the town says we should get along and he hands us these badges to help us get in places (which I don't need because I'm the local superhero), and so our first case is given to us: deal with the Clockwork Killer, who seemed to be targeting watchmakers/clock vendors and trashing the place. We are also told to try to keep people alive, with emphasis on them, and also to try to avoid acting outside the law as much as we can, with emphasis on me.

We head to the most recent killing that took place that very morning and we investigate the place. I look for witnesses as one cop does fuck all since he's just muscle (he's like some hybrid of the rabbit from zootopia and captain america) and the other cop lost his sheet or something and had to redo it, so I was stuck doing everything by myself. The mafia folk end up finding that the site had all the digital clocks and clocks of a certain brand destroyed, they also talk to the man who was killed through speak with dead, and they also discover the killer was cloaked. What did I find out? The witness, the time of attack, the person who was killed and that was about it (again, by myself and the others aren't giving me any help with this).

So we find out who the owner of the brand of clock that was getting his stuff smashed in, and we end up splitting the party by law and mafia. The mafia decide to go see him in the morning at his office and we go to see him during the night at his estate. It is also at this point that I forgot that my character lacks any sort of transportation and he has to use (what I originally had as emergency uses) potions of flight to get around town at a decent speed (and my character is named Grey Fenris, so its rather strange to see a man clad to look more wolflike in appearance fly around town). So we end up at the place and we speak to the man, named Hamelton, and we speak to him in regards to what is going on. He gives us three names of the people who would most likely have a grudge against him, and our muscle tries to convince him to have officers protect him, but he declines. We call it a night for our group and we decide to investigate the POIs in the morning.

As for the morning, the Mafia goons try to get in to speak to him, but his secretary tells him, and i quote "He says 'Tell those fuckin' feds I already talked to them! Fuck off!' And those are his exact words". The mafioso that was a short temper and happens to be a magus isn't taking no for an answer and teleports into the room with his companion, who happens to be a mafioso who's rather low on the ladder and is trying to get higher up in the family. Immediately, Hamelton tells them they need a warrant to search here and his three bodyguards point their guns at him, and the "bad cop" (mafioso?) starts to get angry and threatens him by saying he's killed more for less, and then the lesser mafioso tells his companion to settle down (can you tell who "that guy" is played by?). The lower end mafia goon comes up with a plan to lure the clockwork killer and says that they can both benefit from him getting taken out, and Hamelton agrees and prepares to set the trap.

A while later, me and the officer whos just finishing his sheet go to the first POI's house, which was a halfling by the name of Mr. Cogsworth. We go to the door and knock, but no answer. I knock again, but wait a couple seconds and then try to kick the door in, but my vigilante is sneaky and intimidating, not strong. The cop goes and bull rushes the door open and he almost knocks the thing off the hinges and the halfling we're looking for runs out shirtless with a shotgun pointed at us and shouts something about not having rent, but then he sees me and he calms down, despite insulting me by saying "Hey, arent you that insane wazoo who keeps going around in a cape and all?" I sarcasticly respond yes, and he says "Oh, nice. I like your style" and he lowers the shotgun and he talks to us. We find out he was looking for jobs at the time of the murder and he has been hurting for money for the past three months (which is why he came after us with a shotgun because he thought we were his landlord). We also note that he isn't phased or anything by the mention of the clockwork killer, and without any more questions for him or anything, we leave, only to find out that Hamelton was kidnapped recently. Me, knowing the Mafia goons were going to meet with him, I freak out and head over there as fast as I can with the other cop.

The mafiosos get there first via teleport and they start looking for signs of forced entry when I arrive with my guns out and I ask where his buddy is, and he says hes there, and I calm down, knowing they're not stupid to come back if they did indeed take him. My character says "You better not have taken him. I know how you undergorund types work" and the lesser mafioso I'm talking to, who I intimidated earlier for asking me why I dress like a douchebag, was ready and willing to exchange notes. The magus comes down and says they found no magic in the office and I go to speak to the bodyguards who tell me that he went into the bathroom and never came out, with brass scratch marks on the floor. We start looking around and the DM says we're the worst investigators ever because we didn't ask the officers who arrived first anything while we're doing this, and when we did, we were given a note that had a riddle on it. The riddle wasn't hard, as it said at 3, Hamelton will die, and the riddle is discerned with my knowledge of the city and the magus' intelligence, which told us hes in one of the eleven clock towers, and while me and the officers go to the construction site of the eleventh tower, the mafiosos teleport to each clock tower, starting with 3 and 10 (due to the eleventh tower being an abandoned project and the the fact the clock strikes 3 could mean the third tower). They get to the tenth tower and they hear singing, and the magus tells me via telepathic bond that something is wrong at the tenth tower and could use backup. I had an ETA of 3 minutes via flying and the officers had an ETA of 10 minutes.

The mafiosos didn't wait for backup and went in, only to be greeted by three cloaked men and Hamelton being tied to clock gears and is being stretched by them. They start to fight but the lesser one (a swashbuckler) has trouble dealing with them due to poor rolls and the magus is pretty much stuck on his own. The three men then start casting scorching ray on the Magus at once and they dominate the swashbuckler to shoot his superior mafioso because he's tired of being pushed around, etc. And funnily enough, the swashbuckler shoots him 12 times (2 rounds worth) and knocks him unconcious. They stabalize the magus and go to take him away and the swashbuckler just stands and watches as he's dominated by this effect still, and that is when I finally arrive, and I see the mafioso not going against them, and that was where the session ended; as the Hero makes his grand entrance.

Gonna be hilarious because as soon as I enter I make an intimidation check to frighten them and since my bonus to intimidate is +32, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna scare them. Not to mention when I do that, I damage everyone who I intimidate with nonlethal damage due to a class feature, I'm probably going to knock out one or two of the now weakened cloaked figures and probably the swashbuckler. If not, my merciful dual weidling guns will... Especially since I'm just dropping down and firing my guns as I land and shoot the ones still standing.

I'm excited for the next session because my character specializes in combat and subduing enemies. And since this is the perfect time and place for a vigilante to use his class skills to its fullest.

As I said before, the Hero has arrived...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 20, 2016, 10:22:01 pm

In this campaign, we had to take a fort from imperialistic assholes. They stole it first, to be fair.

Spoiler: Here be Hell's Rebels book 3 spoilers (click to show/hide)

And had little idea of how it worked. Full of hidden corridors and old traps. Seems like having "Fuck Everything" buttons is a common trope in Dwarven Fortresses.

Rather than get mobbed by the few dozen guards by starting shit at the front gates, we offered to work for them as mercenaries. We knew of the hidden destructo-lever, but not where, so we had to find some way to be able to explore relatively freely, in case a fight allowed some of the guards to flee for aid from a nearby city or something. The Wizard was placed to guard the armory, but didn't find anything. I switched spots with him at a later shift, but didn't see anything either. It was my Familiar that spotted the hidden door. After gathering everyone and exploring the hidden corridors a bit, we triggered a set of constructs, which animated and attacked us. We eventually found the lever, and a bound outsider whose job was to explain how the lever works. Clever dwarves made the whole room to be specifically protected from the Hell that would occur if the lever were to be pulled.

We were also able to find hidden entrances to many parts of the fort, including the leader's quarters, and shanked him in his sleep. Most of his loot was just vanity items such as jewelry, the vain bastard. We also looted the armory and treasury before we went back to the "panic room" to kickstart the apocalypse. This fort is at the bottom of an immense canyon. This lever caused the entire canyon to collapse, and basically ruin the landscape for miles, except for our panic room and a specially protected tunnel path that led out of the canyon.

Those Thrune bastards will have to take a several week detour around the ruins, much to our benefit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on August 21, 2016, 03:32:11 am

I blinded half the party!

Threw a Lurker in the Light (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary2/lurkerInLight.html) at them as a random encounter while they were travelling on the road. Two of the characters failed their Fort saves vs. Blindness SLA.

So the party, having nobody who can cure Blindness, decided to backtrack to one of the player's NPC contacts that lives nearby. Great character by the way, this NPC is named Allons Vhi. Whovianisms ahoy!

During the encounter they rescued a paralyzed NPC named Layla Kroft, an explorer of ancient ruins who lost her horse and all her gear after getting stung by a Spider Eater. I threw an adventure hook at them about a necromancer's castle she was intending to explore and they took the bait.

She's mentioned she wants to search it for a book written by the "greatest warrior that ever lived," which nobody has yet seemed interested in investigating. I plan to have the backstory be a mythical figure reputed to be the master who trained the Pathfinder god Irori while he was still a mortal, though the church considers anything mentioning him to be heretical.

The quest arc will be finding the ancient tomes of knowledge written by the great warrior, the first of which is a Manual of Gainful Exercise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/book-manual-of-gainful-exercise) +1.

Each of the books will carry a flavor text associated with a Chuck Norris Fact.

Strength: "The student once asked the greatest warrior the secret of great power. In response, the greatest warrior showed that he did not push himself up when training, he pushed the world down."

Dexterity: "The student once asked the greatest warrior the secret of great speed. In response, the greatest warrior ran around the world fast enough to punch himself in the back of the head."

Constitution: "The student once asked the greatest warrior the secret of endurance. In response, the greatest warrior replied that he never sleeps; he merely waits."

Intelligence: "The student once asked the greatest warrior the secret of a great mind. In response, the greatest warrior counted to infinity - twice."

Wisdom: "The student once asked the greatest warrior the secret of deep understanding. In response, the greatest warrior showed that he himself is the meeting of both an unstoppable force and an immovable object."

Charisma: "The student once asked the greatest warrior the secret of a strong self. In response, the greatest warrior revealed that he died decades ago, but death was simply to intimidated to come for him yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 02, 2016, 10:15:47 pm

Return from vacation with my wife to find D&D on the fourth page, shame and sorrow to my house.  (this is a poorly disguised bump)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Amperzand on September 02, 2016, 10:43:47 pm

Somebody linked me to the Silverclawshift archives again. Really neat campaign log.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?116836-The-SilverClawShift-Campaign-Archives

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 02, 2016, 11:11:12 pm

Our Vampire game got a bit complicated.  There are things going on that would be hard to explain concisely (even my version of "concisely"), and it's possible that there is intrigue I shouldn't reveal.

But in a nutshell...
My character died, I think that's where I left off.  Jake the Mekhet infiltrator.  He was torn in half by the werewolf who caught up with our car and reached inside.
The other two characters suffer from Malkavia, due to sharing the tainted blood in a sick mutual bond (my character joined under duress, but died shortly after).

Long story short, they finished off the werewolf.  As they drove home with the corpse, they were accosted by police.
They fought...  But backup was called...  And they kept fighting.  Basically they hit 6 stars GTA-style, and also the local vampire society declared bloodhunt on them for gross masquerade violation.  (The ventrue didn't even do much, but the gangrel went full monster).

Here's where the intrigue sets in.  Gonna be brief.  The Ventrue's adoptive sire...  has his child-apprentice of 80 years (Invictus amirite) rescue our Ventrue from the morgue.  Then plant a bomb in our haven... almost killing our gangrel.  Then mindwipes the mission from said childe, who doesn't resist.

The gangrel survives, of course, and eventually both her and the ventrue are brought before this Ventrue.  He explains that my dead character's sire, Mike, is a tricky Mekhet.  Clearly he is behind everything.  Jake (my character) might not even be dead...  That's the power of Obfuscation.

Anyway that childe-apprentice is my new character.  A middle-aged ww2 medic WASP who saved the wrong-right person, and was embraced for her trouble.  After 80 years as house-servant to an ancient luddite, she's somewhat antisocial for a ventrue.  Deadpan, physically and mentally tough but thoroughly brainwashed, patiently waiting for her eventual chance to be an Invictus Lady.  Apparently that chance involves babysitting these murderhoboes as they research Malkavia in Raleigh, NC.

So far it's... not going well.  I'll go into detail later.  Basically, Raleigh is pretty cool, but 2/3 of us are rapidly shifting personalities due to Malkavia.  It inevitably led to the gangrel frenzying and murdering people in plain sight.

My character hasn't slept yet, btw.  She was charged with protecting the adopted ventrue, so she stands watch over her sleeping form every night.  It's not creepy (it's creepy)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 12:36:15 am

A bit disappointing being a Big-Dumb-Fighter in a roleplay-heavy campaign.

I have no skills with which to make the rolls needed to roleplay. Every roleplay opportunity just leaves me sitting there saying "Hello, I am birb".

We had to crash another fancy nobleman's dinner party, and all my Strix could do was gorge himself on food, and make rolls to avoid eating to the point of nausea. All but one of my Charisma checks failed horribly.

Things brightened up when I got to start punching faces in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on September 05, 2016, 12:49:24 am

That's generally why Fighters are seen as a "weak" class despite all their stats and feats and high BAB -- when you're not smashing land-based creatures' faces in, you have literally nothing to do.

Is also why gishes and Tome of Battle or Path of War (depending on 3.5e or PF) classes are generally more interesting. They have more options. Same with Summoner, whose Eidolon is essentially a Fighter with 3 less hit die than you, and you a half-caster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 01:08:14 am

Quote

when you're not smashing land-based creatures' faces in, you have literally nothing to do.

Could always go Archer as a Fighter...

As I've said before Fighters make far better archers then even Rangers... by a huge significant margin (even more so now that they can trade in weapon variety in for boosts).

Rangers have to rely on their pet and spells to make up the difference... I'd include favored enemy but Fighters get the equivalent of favored enemy bonus on all enemies all the time.

Then again I have no idea why people keep insisting that Rangers are better than Fighters at two weapon fighting OR Ranged fighting when Fighters just flat out shut them down. Ignoring that fighters eventually get more feats... they also have access to Fighter feats that are leagues better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 01:14:15 am

I can fly. I am birb-man, Strix. Like Tengu, but not. Because unlike Tengu, we can fly.

My pet Tidepool Dragon can, too. We fuck shit up good.

Actually, I think the Dragon has more Charisma than I do. Much less Intelligence, because Mauler Archetype (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Familiar%20Mauler).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 01:19:10 am

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 01:08:14 am

Rangers have to rely on their pet and spells to make up the difference... I'd include favored enemy but Fighters get the equivalent of favored enemy bonus on all enemies all the time.

Then again I have no idea why people keep insisting that Rangers are better than Fighters at two weapon fighting OR Ranged fighting when Fighters just flat out shut them down. Ignoring that fighters eventually get more feats... they also have access to Fighter feats that are leagues better.

Because unlike Fighter feats, Ranger bonus feats allow you to ignore prerequisites, so you can go pure-strength and still get all Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Much less useful once Dex-to-Damage became a thing, though.

And Favoured Enemy Bonus is much stronger than Weapon Training in Pathfinder. It gets up to 10 to-hit and damage at cap.

Edit: Whoops. Did not mean to double-post. Thought I hit Modify, not New Post.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 05, 2016, 01:30:38 am

Depending on your rules system, multiclassing is typically the best method to achieve a decent archery build. 3.5e is especially feat intensive for a focused archery build, and Pathfinder only less so due to increased feats. My archery built character in 3.5e ended up being a Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/ Assassin 2/Shadowdancer 4/Horizon Walker 1/Assassin 7/Eldritch Knight 1.

It was, incidentally, a hellishly fun character to play, being a Chaotic Evil assassin murder-hobo. Roleplay doesn't necessarily mean roll-play using your skills, it means being an interesting character who does interesting things and plays well with the group dynamic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on September 05, 2016, 01:38:23 am

Yeah. My fighter is moderately useful out of combat purely by being Average Joe and thus able to fraternise with random guards and stuff to extract information.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on September 05, 2016, 01:44:24 am

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 01:08:14 am

Quote

when you're not smashing land-based creatures' faces in, you have literally nothing to do.

Could always go Archer as a Fighter...

You could, but PoW archers are even better.

And I think he wasn't necessarily talking about smashing in faces in the most literal sense. Archery might let you smash in faces from afar, but it isn't any more useful in a fancy nobleman's dinner party than a big stick is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on September 05, 2016, 02:39:10 am

I'm the one who said it, so she :P

And yeah what scriver said -- "smashing your face in" is just a casual shorthand for combat in general.

Quote

Roleplay doesn't necessarily mean roll-play using your skills, it means being an interesting character who does interesting things and plays well with the group dynamic.

Quote

My fighter is moderately useful out of combat purely by being Average Joe and thus able to fraternise with random guards and stuff to extract information.

These are things you can do no matter what class you pick. But other classes offer more stuff on top of that, while fighters can ... fight. Poorly, later on -- once AC goes sky-high and monsters often fly, have five attacks or more a turn, are incorporeal, etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 02:46:41 am

Except there are DCs to make people like you, or to gather information.

I do literally have to roll, and since Fighters have few skill points or class skills, I am not well suited to do much. We don't even get Perception, which is a mandatory skill to have for all players.

The parties had scripted events and required some moderately high Charisma-based skill rolls to not piss off the hosts. And we only have one Face party-member. He completely carried us. We'd get penalized for failing, and some DCs were higher than 25.

I guess the term is Roll-play? I've heard it used a few times to describe mechanics that replace roleplay with dice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Skyrunner on September 05, 2016, 03:15:28 am

Incidentally the degree of rolling in games tends to vary wildly from gm to gm. In my games, diplomacy can usually be done by actually talking and bargaining with the person, while Intimidate usually requires a roll. Some GMs strictly use diplo, bluff and intimidate rolls all the time, and others never.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 03:25:16 am

This DM doesn't do homebrew games often. He just goes by official Pathfinder Adventure Paths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 05:38:43 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 12:36:15 am

A bit disappointing being a Big-Dumb-Fighter in a roleplay-heavy campaign.

I have no skills with which to make the rolls needed to roleplay. Every roleplay opportunity just leaves me sitting there saying "Hello, I am birb".

We had to crash another fancy nobleman's dinner party, and all my Strix could do was gorge himself on food, and make rolls to avoid eating to the point of nausea. All but one of my Charisma checks failed horribly.

Things brightened up when I got to start punching faces in.

But Charisma checks failing horribly is roleplay of a sort. Look for other fancy noblemen who are fellow enthusiasts of smashing in faces (think Robert Baratheon-types, there's gotta be some of those about), participate in drinking contests, do card tricks with that Sleight of Hand you probably don't have, eat out of other people's plates when you talk to them, display charming ignorance of social customs and dance. Oh my god, dance your heart out. Preferably after a drinking contest. Be the best birb you can possibly be.

I mean, in one of the games I was in we went to an underground fighting ring, a party of a Paladin of Tyranny, a Cleric, a Warlock and a Sorcerer. Bare-knuckle, no magic or potions. Sorcerer steps up first, has a bit of whiskey, gets into the ring with a moderately menacing bruiser (something like a level 3 fighter, I think), and has a no-holds-barred fistfight that he wins basically by sheer luck without even needing to cheat. Stepping out of your sphere of competence can be pretty fun if you commit to it, even if you fail, perhaps especially when you fail.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 05, 2016, 05:48:00 am

Yep, what's most important is to strike a balance between playing the game and playing your character.

Imagine yourself as your character. You're most at home on a battlefield soaked in sweat and blood, but for some reason you're stuck at a nobleman's party. This really isn't your thing, but you're an adult and you're going to see it out as best you can without bringing shame on yourself and your friends.

I'm sure pretty much everyone can relate to feeling lost and awkward at a party, so act that way. Say your character starts looking around for someone he thinks might relate with him. Or say he looks for a pretty girl he thinks he might be able to impress with his tales of battle. Or say that he slips outside and tries to bum a smoke off one of the waiters. He doesn't need to necessarily be the life of the party, because that's not the kind of person he is. What he does do is feel and act awkwardly, but he might just luck out and have a good time anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on September 05, 2016, 06:19:30 am

Quote from: Skyrunner on September 05, 2016, 03:15:28 am

Incidentally the degree of rolling in games tends to vary wildly from gm to gm. In my games, diplomacy can usually be done by actually talking and bargaining with the person, while Intimidate usually requires a roll. Some GMs strictly use diplo, bluff and intimidate rolls all the time, and others never.

I tend to have people roll for everything you technically should according to the rolls. (cha skills, ect ect) but then change the DC they need to hit in accordance with what they are actually doing/saying.  Of course, that leaves room for crit failures which is indicative of real life anyways, since a lot of people will occasionally stumble right over what they are trying to say despite what they intended to say.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 05, 2016, 09:10:18 am

At our table, players never get to roll Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff or Sense Motive against another player. NPCs are fair game, but unless it would affect the outcome of something I usually don't bother. Knowledge checks, on the other hand, are typically expected, as well as the occasional ability check to avoid your character doing something stupid like destroying their bag of holding by putting something sharp inside it, even though you just said you put all the weapons from the last fight into your bag.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 10:59:07 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 01:19:10 am

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 01:08:14 am

Rangers have to rely on their pet and spells to make up the difference... I'd include favored enemy but Fighters get the equivalent of favored enemy bonus on all enemies all the time.

Then again I have no idea why people keep insisting that Rangers are better than Fighters at two weapon fighting OR Ranged fighting when Fighters just flat out shut them down. Ignoring that fighters eventually get more feats... they also have access to Fighter feats that are leagues better.

Because unlike Fighter feats, Ranger bonus feats allow you to ignore prerequisites, so you can go pure-strength and still get all Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Much less useful once Dex-to-Damage became a thing, though.

And Favoured Enemy Bonus is much stronger than Weapon Training in Pathfinder. It gets up to 10 to-hit and damage at cap.

Edit: Whoops. Did not mean to double-post. Thought I hit Modify, not New Post.

Ahh but that is the catch! The fighter actually benefits from the split because of their armor training!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on September 05, 2016, 01:03:52 pm

This is why I like 5e's backgrounds, as they allow you to pick up skills you wouldn't ordinarily get with your class, which is how I ended up playing a merchant barbarian. Theoretically you could do something similar in 3e/PF by giving free class skills, though fighters and other martial classes have such anemic skill points that you'd have to do a bit of adjusting to make it work.

Frankly, I don't like it when games make you choose between being good at fighting and having any sort of social skills. Unless someone is low-functioning autistic or has never met another sentient being, they're going to have some sort of social skills.

I suppose the situation can be somewhat alleviated by treating Diplomacy as just something to roll to persuade people to do things they wouldn't normally do, and you can otherwise talk to them and ask them to do things they'd normally want to do anyways without any rolls. Then people who invest in the skill still get something, while people who don't don't have to be silent during social encounters for fear of rolling poorly and doing something stupid in-game. Acting like a buffoon should be a roleplaying choice, not something you should have to do because you picked a certain class (unless it's a bard).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 05, 2016, 01:06:00 pm

Quote from: kilakan on September 05, 2016, 06:19:30 am

Quote from: Skyrunner on September 05, 2016, 03:15:28 am

Incidentally the degree of rolling in games tends to vary wildly from gm to gm. In my games, diplomacy can usually be done by actually talking and bargaining with the person, while Intimidate usually requires a roll. Some GMs strictly use diplo, bluff and intimidate rolls all the time, and others never.

I tend to have people roll for everything you technically should according to the rolls. (cha skills, ect ect) but then change the DC they need to hit in accordance with what they are actually doing/saying.  Of course, that leaves room for crit failures which is indicative of real life anyways, since a lot of people will occasionally stumble right over what they are trying to say despite what they intended to say.

This right here is the optimal strategy for good roleplaying.  The dice are just a random element, there to keep things somewhat arbitrary, they aren't the god of the table, the DM/GM is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 01:33:01 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on September 05, 2016, 01:03:52 pm

This is why I like 5e's backgrounds, as they allow you to pick up skills you wouldn't ordinarily get with your class, which is how I ended up playing a merchant barbarian. Theoretically you could do something similar in 3e/PF by giving free class skills, though fighters and other martial classes have such anemic skill points that you'd have to do a bit of adjusting to make it work.

A lot of traits in Pathfinder do that as well, giving you a class skill and a bonus to using it. I think pretty much every common skill has at least one trait that gives it, and Pathfinder also gives you the option to take an extra skill point every level in your favored class.

I also played a half-orc merchant barbarian in 5E once, actually. Was fun!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 01:56:44 pm

There are so many traits in Pathfinder, you can easily build characters with skills and abilities they might never possess otherwise, or buffed versions of their existing powers. It's actually really cool (unless you hate that sort of thing I guess).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 02:42:28 pm

5th edition is unfortunately a diamond in the rough having so many great ideas that would immediately make it one of the best dungeons and dragons to date...

But while it is the most balanced it is also overbalanced... removing what is essentially character creation to retain balance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 02:50:15 pm

Quote from: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 01:56:44 pm

There are so many traits in Pathfinder, you can easily build characters with skills and abilities they might never possess otherwise, or buffed versions of their existing powers. It's actually really cool (unless you hate that sort of thing I guess).

Best of all, the GM can allow as many traits as they want (such as 4 or so instead of the regular 2) if they'd like something as powerful as 5E's backgrounds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 02:54:08 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 02:50:15 pm

Quote from: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 01:56:44 pm

There are so many traits in Pathfinder, you can easily build characters with skills and abilities they might never possess otherwise, or buffed versions of their existing powers. It's actually really cool (unless you hate that sort of thing I guess).

Best of all, the GM can allow as many traits as they want (such as 4 or so instead of the regular 2) if they'd like something as powerful as 5E's backgrounds.

Not... exactly... though I'd get into it but then I'd have to talk about campaign specific traits.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 05, 2016, 03:06:43 pm

What the fuck (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jrralls/rpgs-are-evil-dark-dungeons-the-movie)

No seriously

What the actual fuck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qc9JiIiOSQ)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 03:09:04 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on September 05, 2016, 03:06:43 pm

What the fuck (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jrralls/rpgs-are-evil-dark-dungeons-the-movie)

No seriously

What the actual fuck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qc9JiIiOSQ)

Jack Chick made a comic that basically was a fable against the EVILS of Dungeons and Dragons

The people who made the movie basically made a parody by playing the original comic perfectly straight.

If you want to see someone riffing on this movie (Jontron in this case) then here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subQrEPKytA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subQrEPKytA)

But honestly watch this movie.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 05, 2016, 03:11:03 pm

No, no, I get that part, but... why.
Is this supposed to be a parody
I don't get it anymore
I don't get anything anymore

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 03:15:59 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTa9DfOnltA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTa9DfOnltA)

This is a parody

They achieve this parody by displaying people's prejudices and hatred towards homosexuals and playing it straight so you can see just how ridiculous is.

Dark Dungeons works the same way. It plays Jack Chick's work as if it was the bible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 03:36:05 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 02:54:08 pm

Not... exactly... though I'd get into it but then I'd have to talk about campaign specific traits.

Most of the campaign-specific traits are easy enough to reskin for use in other games, though, and they tend to have the best flavor to them. Foreign Opportunist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/foreign-opportunist), for example, is practically a background power already.

Besides, if ever there was a time to get into campaign-specific traits, how is this not it? Unless there's something deeply objectionable about ones that aren't blatantly OP like Finding Your Kin, you mean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 03:39:57 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 03:36:05 pm

Besides, if ever there was a time to get into campaign-specific traits, how is this not it? Unless there's something deeply objectionable about ones that aren't blatantly OP like Finding Your Kin, you mean.

Campaign specific traits are not designed to "play nice" with other traits and are often the equivalent of a feat or are even more powerful than even that.

They are all nearly universally OP because they are meant to be.

If your having campaign traits just make them yourself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 03:48:49 pm

They're OP as far as traits go, mostly, which is to say not very. I think it's pretty nifty to let people fish around for a bit more oomph, given the relatively low stakes. It's kind of like Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) gives you a rare and prized power for one spell in particular - nice bonus, but not really a game breaker in any way.

But I guess it's a good point that you can just make them yourself if need be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 04:13:57 pm

Some traits can be incredibly powerful. The newest Adventure Path, Strange Aeons, added a trait that lets you Smite once a day, like a Paladin.

---

The problem is, I have no skill points to spare for Charismatic skills, and no Charisma modifier, so it's always a flat D20 roll. There is a penalty for failing these Charisma checks.

In both of the roleplay banquets, we have to collect points by passing some rather difficult rolls, and failure subtracts points. It's crucial to the Adventure Path to get as many points as possible. The Adventure Path is literally penalizing any party that does not fully consist of Faces.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 04:27:45 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 04:13:57 pm

The problem is, I have no skill points to spare for Charismatic skills, and no Charisma modifier, so it's always a flat D20 roll. There is a penalty for failing these Charisma checks.

In both of the roleplay banquets, we have to collect points by passing some rather difficult rolls, and failure subtracts points. It's crucial to the Adventure Path to get as many points as possible. The Adventure Path is literally penalizing any party that does not fully consist of Faces.

What do the Charisma checks entail? Making an impression on noblemen? If you do a good enough bit of RP, maybe the DM would let a Charisma check slide. Maybe try bending an iron bar to impress people. Or carry around some other prop to help you out.

Or, much like Jimmy mentioned, steal as much expensive food as possible and use that as bait to hang out with stable hands, porters and other folk like that. Even more impressive if you have a bag of holding - just shovel some in there while you're eating, then when you have enough pop out for a smoke and chat up the surrounding staff. If the DM's a kind chap you might get lucky with a crucial piece of information or some such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 04:35:23 pm

We have to do all sorts of checks. Diplomacy and Bluff to get anything from other guests. Perform Dance to impress them. Random Knowledge checks just to be able to eat the food in the first banquet. Just Fortitude checks to not get ill from the food at the second banquet. Both times we couldn't explore, because guards would block all doors, and talking to any non-guests makes you lose points.

The DCs are fairly high, too. Typically a DC of 20 is low. And again, too few points will make the campaign harder later. In the first banquet, the host will outright kill players with too few points, or if they are "disruptive", according to the book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 04:36:37 pm

 ???

Sounds boring as all hell. And why would you need Knowledge just to eat?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 04:37:29 pm

Quote from: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 04:36:37 pm

???

Sounds boring as all hell. And why would you need Knowledge just to eat?

Exotic food, you need the Knowledge rolls to know how to eat the food properly. Eating improperly loses points.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 04:38:51 pm

What is this, an adventure designed for a party made up entirely of bards?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 04:39:38 pm

Quote from: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 04:36:37 pm

???

Sounds boring as all hell. And why would you need Knowledge just to eat?

Don't double dip. That costs you points.

And yeah, that's not so much your fault as just the adventure path being shittily designed. Smacks of "NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT SIDDOWN AND FOLLOW THE RAILS" business.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 04:41:00 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 04:39:38 pm

Quote from: Sirus on September 05, 2016, 04:36:37 pm

???

Sounds boring as all hell. And why would you need Knowledge just to eat?

Don't double dip. That costs you points.

And yeah, that's not so much your fault as just the adventure path being shittily designed. Smacks of "NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT SIDDOWN AND FOLLOW THE RAILS" business.

To admit I haven't read it and it might have a bit more to it then it first seems... OR is designed with a specific party in mind (which a few do)

That and most parties I've been with pretty much force the face to do everything as it is.

This seems TOO set against you for an official adventure path for me to believe it wholesale.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on September 05, 2016, 04:46:29 pm

Are you like at a God's feast? Or just home random add nobles?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 05, 2016, 04:57:27 pm

What happens if you don't get enough points through the socializing?  I assume the campaign is still possible, just more difficult.  Which is fair, since your party spent points on athletics, tracking, and knowledge instead of "closing your mouth while you chew" :P

A party of people who did basically waste points on socializing deserve to have some advantage in this rare circumstance, imho.
Though maybe I'm a little bitter, because I played high-charisma characters and our ugly nerds and barbarians never had to roll diplomacy during dialogue.  I got to roll, generally because I was awkward at roleplaying out loud and had to "recover".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on September 05, 2016, 05:01:43 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on September 05, 2016, 02:42:28 pm

5th edition is unfortunately a diamond in the rough having so many great ideas that would immediately make it one of the best dungeons and dragons to date...

But while it is the most balanced it is also overbalanced... removing what is essentially character creation to retain balance.

Yeah, like, I like that they made feats more powerful for the fact that you don't get them very often, but miss the fact that there are small things you can get to affect your character. That's why I'd like to move to a mostly point-buy system, or maybe some sort of class system where you can swap out parts of your character to adjust how it plays.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 05:37:03 pm

DM said it's the most roleplay-heavy adventure he's seen. And absolutely everyone must participate in these events.

It is Hell's Rebels, for those wondering, which is an official Paizo book. I've been told it gets less roleplay-heavy after the third or fourth book.

The first banquet is for getting a nearby city to agree to help you in your rebellion. The second banquet is held by the big-bad. The first banquet's consequences either result in the noble happily joining you to dominating or outright killing the party and taking control of the rebellion herself. We don't know what the second banquet's point system does yet.

Thankfully our Orc player/Problem Player is gone. He has been purposely fucking up every social encounter we've had. He claimed to be Chaotic Neutral, but has literally been a typical Chaotic Evil "Murder, Pillage, and Rape" type Orc. The nicest thing the Orc's done is spit on our Swashbuckler, who went to say hi when we met him. Attacked random people just for getting too close to him, and has literally sexually assaulted every female NPC we come across. And random wildlife when we were camping in the wilderness. Made jokes about how he spent each night jerking off to the campfire and wearing chipmunks as nipple-clamps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 05, 2016, 05:56:33 pm

Yep, you gotta be careful about any chaotic neutral characters you see submitted as a DM. It often means the character actually wants to play neutral evil, or at least chaotic stupid.

Regarding backgrounds, I actually give my players two extra skill ranks per level to spend on skills that represent their character's non-adventuring life. It's a good variant of the Pathfinder skill system that lets you flesh out your character. So far one of my players has invested into craft skills for her character working as a seamstress, another has ranks as a professional soldier, and the greedy gnome has invested heavily into his skill at appraising valuables. Plus everyone loves getting a new language each level.

Background Skills (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/background-skills)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 06:15:30 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 05:37:03 pm

DM said it's the most roleplay-heavy adventure he's seen. And absolutely everyone must participate in these events.

It is Hell's Rebels, for those wondering, which is an official Paizo book. I've been told it gets less roleplay-heavy after the third or fourth book.

The first banquet is for getting a nearby city to agree to help you in your rebellion. The second banquet is held by the big-bad. The first banquet's consequences either result in the noble happily joining you to dominating or outright killing the party and taking control of the rebellion herself. We don't know what the second banquet's point system does yet.

Both of those sound like rather excellent opportunities for roleplaying that somebody has taken the effort to suck all the fun out of.

I mean, from what I understand of the path, the big bad is at least a devil of some kind, so having a shitty party makes some sense there (since a devil is essentially the worst boss you've ever had, but with all the worst bits turned malignant and cancerous). But why the hell would a noblewoman decide to help you based on whether or not you know how to eat oysters properly?

Ideally when you have a goal for a heavy RP section, you want to let players roam free and have fun while edging them toward the actual point of the section, letting them get there in any number of ways that fit their characters, not arbitrary crap like this.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 05:37:03 pm

Thankfully our Orc player/Problem Player is gone. He has been purposely fucking up every social encounter we've had. He claimed to be Chaotic Neutral, but has literally been a typical Chaotic Evil "Murder, Pillage, and Rape" type Orc. The nicest thing the Orc's done is spit on our Swashbuckler, who went to say hi when we met him. Attacked random people just for getting too close to him, and has literally sexually assaulted every female NPC we come across. And random wildlife when we were camping in the wilderness. Made jokes about how he spent each night jerking off to the campfire and wearing chipmunks as nipple-clamps.

Goodness, that doesn't sound like a thing a person would play unless they were taking revenge on you for some perceived slight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 05, 2016, 06:23:59 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on September 05, 2016, 06:15:30 pm

I mean, from what I understand of the path, the big bad is at least a devil of some kind, so having a shitty party makes some sense there (since a devil is essentially the worst boss you've ever had, but with all the worst bits turned malignant and cancerous). But why the hell would a noblewoman decide to help you based on whether or not you know how to eat oysters properly?

He's part of the ruling family of the country of Cheliax, who made a deal with Devils in return for a ton of power. Again, no idea what the points are for here. Maybe to influence the nobles that were attending? I don't know what I can or can't mention about this banquet without it being spoiler-territory. The only free-roaming is done by a no-name NPC from your rebellion who manages to sneak in as a guard, and help out a tiny bit. The DM allowed our Rogue to do this instead, as the NPC was several levels lower than we were, and wouldn't actually be able to help. But if a player poses as a guard, they can't do any eating or dancing or mingling.

The noble-woman already likes the rebellion, but believes that a rebellion should be led by those with tact and grace, and if the players don't demonstrate that, she'll step in to lead the rebellion herself.

The Problem-Player comes up a lot in this topic. Always the asshole meta-min-maxed, super optimized, who's just "doing what their character would do" while trying to dominate the game and stand in the spotlight, or fulfilling a power-fantasy if they are the DM, with a meta-min-maxed, super optimized DMPC, who's just "doing what their character would do" while trying to dominate the game and stand in the spotlight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

why is this thread so far back
I'm going to my first real session at college tomorrow.  The DM hasn't done this before, and it seems like he's following the rulebooks verbatim which worries me just a bit.  Any tips before I head off?
This is 5e in case that matters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrWiggles on September 09, 2016, 05:35:19 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

why is this thread so far back
I'm going to my first real session at college tomorrow.  The DM hasn't done this before, and it seems like he's following the rulebooks verbatim which worries me just a bit.  Any tips before I head off?
This is 5e in case that matters.

Why does it worry you that their following RAW?

As for tips.Ya'll gonna get the rules wrong, and ya'll made your character wrong. And ya'll dont know how they work. Thats fine. Just be relax about it. And remember that the GM is the arbiter. If they say 'thats how it works' then just move on, and only nudge the GM if they arent constiant. Do rule changes between games not during games.  Playing the rpg is generally an excuse to go hang out and be social. So chat with the other players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 09, 2016, 05:39:03 pm

Rules as Written is kinda the point, really.  Houserules come later, when they're sure they know how to break them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on September 09, 2016, 05:40:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

why is this thread so far back
I'm going to my first real session at college tomorrow.  The DM hasn't done this before, and it seems like he's following the rulebooks verbatim which worries me just a bit.  Any tips before I head off?
This is 5e in case that matters.

With 5e going by the book verbatim still leaves loads of room for cool stuff, unless you mean they're only letting you do things specifically mentioned in the book. But yeah, first session, all will go to hell, but just try not to get too concerned and just enjoy it, and it should pick up soon enough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 09:19:15 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on September 09, 2016, 05:40:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

-snop-

...unless you mean they're only letting you do things specifically mentioned in the book...

Yea thats what I'm worried about, just considering how we did character creation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 09, 2016, 09:35:33 pm

Just found out one of my old friends from our school's drama club is running a Pathfinder campaign at the school. He's thinking of bringing people to the Board Room, this board game cafe in the local town. I'm really excited to make another character :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 09, 2016, 09:40:55 pm

After pursuing the idea of raiding a necromancer's abandoned tower for the last four sessions, the group abandoned their quest when they found out the area was off limits by royal decree. Bah, all that prep work wasted!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 09, 2016, 09:46:48 pm

Nothing's against loyal decree if you aren't all LG / there's no guards around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 09, 2016, 10:15:02 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on September 09, 2016, 09:40:55 pm

After pursuing the idea of raiding a necromancer's abandoned tower for the last four sessions, the group abandoned their quest when they found out the area was off limits by royal decree. Bah, all that prep work wasted!

Theft, manslaughter, littering, riding under the influence and sorcery without a license, those are perfectly fine, but trespassing? We're not monsters, man.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Flying Dice on September 09, 2016, 10:27:14 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on September 05, 2016, 05:56:33 pm

Yep, you gotta be careful about any chaotic neutral characters you see submitted as a DM. It often means the character actually wants to play neutral evil, or at least chaotic stupid.

The saddest thing is that CN is pretty much spot-on for rogues, barbarians, and similar played straight, but it's practically in the pit next to CE thanks to murderhobo fetishists.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 09, 2016, 10:36:08 pm

Quote from: Flying Dice on September 09, 2016, 10:27:14 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on September 05, 2016, 05:56:33 pm

Yep, you gotta be careful about any chaotic neutral characters you see submitted as a DM. It often means the character actually wants to play neutral evil, or at least chaotic stupid.

The saddest thing is that CN is pretty much spot-on for rogues, barbarians, and similar played straight, but it's practically in the pit next to CE thanks to murderhobo fetishists.

You can't blame them.

If he told his story on the internet you would be praising him for playing the game hilariously! then boasting how next time you will be playing Murder Hobo... and BOY do I wish I was joking...

And people wonder why I hate troll stories.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrWiggles on September 09, 2016, 11:06:12 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 09:19:15 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on September 09, 2016, 05:40:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

-snop-

...unless you mean they're only letting you do things specifically mentioned in the book...

Yea thats what I'm worried about, just considering how we did character creation.

So just so I understand you're new to this game, the gm is new to this game, you're annoyed that he wasnt letting you make dnd jedi  for the first session?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 11:32:22 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on September 09, 2016, 11:06:12 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 09:19:15 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on September 09, 2016, 05:40:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

-snop-

...unless you mean they're only letting you do things specifically mentioned in the book...

Yea thats what I'm worried about, just considering how we did character creation.

So just so I understand you're new to this game, the gm is new to this game, you're annoyed that he wasnt letting you make dnd jedi  for the first session?

nah, its just that it feels like its gonna be a generic adventure, since he let us do whatever with whatever races and whichever classes and he didn't give us any context or anything to help us create our characters.  I mean it'd probably make sense, since this is erryone's first time playing, but I'm just getting the feeling its gonna be railroaded a certain way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on September 09, 2016, 11:33:21 pm

That doesn't sound all that unreasonable for a bunch of newbies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrWiggles on September 10, 2016, 12:26:19 am

Yea. If hes new, and everyone else is new, then railroading is the way to go. You have to be pretty comfortable to just be announcing the none sense you're doing in an invisible game, which without the the rails, is just kinda floundering. With confidence, in your table ability to improv, to work within the shared narrative environment, that floundering can become boundless. Generally new folks have to work up bit of courage to say goofy things, that their character is doing, while also trying to keep even the small subset of rules in their mind, IE their character abilities. You're going to get 'milk runs' for an unknown bit of time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on September 10, 2016, 12:32:57 am

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 09:19:15 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on September 09, 2016, 05:40:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

-snop-

...unless you mean they're only letting you do things specifically mentioned in the book...

Yea thats what I'm worried about, just considering how we did character creation.

What do you mean? No Variant Human, Feats, and/or Multiclass? Core only? Or just you talked about various character abilities and they said they'd be interpreting them RAW? Because, as others have said, when you're just learning to play the game this is a good way to go.

As for advice, being a player isn't hard, certainly not anywhere near as hard as being a DM. As long as you're not actively being terrible, no one will care. To that end I suppose I have a couple tips:

1. Make sure your character will work with the group. This probably might have come up during character creation, but it's also useful to keep in mind all the time. The reason that evil characters that kill innocents aren't welcome in most parties isn't because such characters are inherently wrong to play, but because their actions generally go contrary to the party's goals. Generally, you should be asking yourself, not only, "why is my character with this group?" but also, "why does this group let me stay?" If you're more trouble than you're worth, and if the characters don't like your character at all, and there isn't some higher power or something that binds you together, you should either adjust some things, or your character should leave the group and you make a new character. If you're acting against the party and they know it in character, there should be a really good reason why you're still together; otherwise you should arrange for the characters to go their separate ways, and you should make a new character.

2. Don't hog the spotlight. Remember that D&D is a team game. Even if you can do it all, doesn't mean you should. You should give others the opportunity to shine, and, if you want to be really good, set them up to be awesome. Give them magical buffs, talk them up in the taverns, stand next to enemies so they can get sneak attacks (if they're rogues). You may be the protagonist of this story, but you're not the only one.

And, of course, in general, don't do behavior that would be considered unacceptable in normal social interaction: being on your phone all the time while your friends are talking, making things sexual if people aren't cool with that, etc. I think that about covers it for not being a terrible player in Dungeons and Dragons.

PreEdit: I see I've been ninja'd, but the latter part of my post still stands up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: MrWiggles on September 10, 2016, 01:34:47 am

I SCOOPED YEA!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: sjm9876 on September 10, 2016, 11:31:44 am

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 11:32:22 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on September 09, 2016, 11:06:12 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 09:19:15 pm

Quote from: sjm9876 on September 09, 2016, 05:40:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulufaic on September 09, 2016, 04:34:34 pm

-snop-

...unless you mean they're only letting you do things specifically mentioned in the book...

Yea thats what I'm worried about, just considering how we did character creation.

So just so I understand you're new to this game, the gm is new to this game, you're annoyed that he wasnt letting you make dnd jedi  for the first session?

nah, its just that it feels like its gonna be a generic adventure, since he let us do whatever with whatever races and whichever classes and he didn't give us any context or anything to help us create our characters.  I mean it'd probably make sense, since this is erryone's first time playing, but I'm just getting the feeling its gonna be railroaded a certain way.

If no one's played before, genericness is a big plus IMO. RPGs require you to break some habits and make others, and a good generic adventure can be good practice. Plus there's very little stopping a generic adventure turning into something with quite strong themes and plot, which can be tailored to the group far more easily than going from the start.

In fact, the mentality of 5e is that the first 2 levels are your characters backstory. I actively prefer starting campaigns in generic adventures because the actual game can be built of the consequences of the players actions there. In general, creating a generic adventure to start means he can get to know how people play before getting more specific. Obviously this probably hasn't consciously crossed his mind, but it can still be advantageous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 10, 2016, 10:00:08 pm

Agreed. Due to the setup of my current game, the group's developed a goal of restoring a castle to act as their base of operations in preparation for pursuing further character goals. The first two levels set the tone of the game, and you get a feel for the interplay with the characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Cthulufaic on September 10, 2016, 11:52:34 pm

alright, so the first session ended just 20 minutes ago and uhh... it was GLORIOUS. 

Spoiler: story (click to show/hide)

We're doing the Haven Cross pre-made adventure and holy shit did we fuck it up.  We had a fighter(me) a cleric a bard and a rogue.  The bard and the rogue were (in game) brothers and con-artists, so they made a plan for the rogue to steal something and sneak out while the bard was distracting everyone else.  In short, the rogue stole a book but got caught, jumped out the window and took 6 out of his 10 health in damage and was aboutta be killed before we managed to convince everyone that he was attacked by the true thief who ran off, in no small part to the bard casting illusions.  Later, completely unrelated, the rogue pissed off the local guards and was at 1 health on the ground.  I went to take him to a local temple for healing while being escorted by 2 guards.  Heading back, I convinced the guards to let me carry him,  then I SPRINTED into an alley and COOL AID MAN'ED THROUGH A WALL into a house and eventually escaped into the forest on horse-back(after decking the old-lady stablemaster and stealing a horse) with 2 guards in hot pursuit.
Eventually I was shot off my horse, and thankfully the guards chased it deeper into the forest.  My rogue friend managed to heal me back to 0 and I passed my saves to get me back up.  I was at 1 health, but i managed to double it through my second wind, and I started climbing trees to escape.  The rogue managed to get a few hits in before being dropped by the guards, when I knocked down part of the tree onto the guards which dropped them low, and after throwing a few torches(one of them hit for 4 damage so its worth) I made it to another tree and knocked THAT one down too, killing the guards.  After a few more rolls to make sure I dont get caught, I manage to make it deep into the forest and losing them.  In total, the bard and the cleric got the 1st quest, the rogue died super hard, and I escaped and am a wanted man.  Total exp gained: 200 for me and thats IT.  6 HOURS OF FUCKERY AND IT WAS HILARIOUS.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 11, 2016, 12:14:21 am

Congrats, sounds like a great run.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NRDL on September 11, 2016, 12:37:00 am

Wild ride from start to finish.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 15, 2016, 02:06:58 am

We got off-topic talking about a... certain female-only Gangrel merit meant for Circle of the Crone sisters.  Then we tried to steer the conversation back to the game.  We were about to knock on the door of a creepy doctor who may be responsible for Malkavianism.
"He attacks with his hallucinogenic manstruation".
We r mature gamers XD  No wonder we make so little progress per session these days.
Well that and discussing minute details of the setting (we've been stuck in a 1920's recreation via ghost-house for a few sessions).

Okay we're inside the doctor's manor and...  The doorman offered refreshments.  The malkie and malkie-gangrel are doing heroin, laudanum, and inquiring after "canniboids".
I'm doing sparkling water because I'm a proper lady :|  Trying to ignore our pretense:  That we require treatment for syphilis.

Naturally, all the drinks were drugged...  Gangrel:  "Oh no!  They drugged my laudanum!" *passes out*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 15, 2016, 07:12:18 am

....
>they drugged my laudanum
That's kinda the point.  ;P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Sirus on September 15, 2016, 07:26:18 am

I was under the impression that drugs don't affect vampires.  ???

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 15, 2016, 07:41:45 am

Magic drugs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 15, 2016, 11:52:23 am

They can, though usually we have to drink them "through" a human.  We haven't had a chance to go partying for a while though (and last time we did, we went quite overboard and got abducted by hunters).

While we're in this simulated 1920's world, caused by spooky haunted manor magicks, we're actually human.  Relatively weak and powerless, though temporarily free of Malkavia, and able to experience the sun and nature.  My character is rather conflicted between wanting to stay in this dream (she was ghouled in the 30's, though she hardly remembers that life) and needing to complete the mission her sire assigned her.

She's even rather disgusted by the rest of the party.  Previously this was hidden under a mask of quiet obedience, but here in the dream she's been exchanging snide barbs like a normal person.  Ironically I think it's bringing them together as people.

Anyway, we're in the 1920's to gather information on Malkavia.  Death is no threat, in fact it's generally the way out (though sometimes we just respawn, it's not clear why).  We do keep derangements and lose spent willpower points normally, though.

The last thing that happened was... rather explicit brain surgery.  On my character.  She claimed to be allergic to anaesthetic so she could stay awake and learn, trading cooperation for information (she is tough as nails, and this worked fairly well).  The doctor is no sadist and finds her cooperation convenient, if a bit surprising, and is discussing his work rather freely.

She also demanded to watch the procedure on her "Dreadful, disgusting" companions :P

What he's doing is very weird, though...  He's inducing immortality in a very odd way.  He carefully cuts up the subject's hindbrain, removing certain "unwanted" bits.  Seemingly inducing a state of torpor... in *humans*.  And a sensation very similar to the initial embrace.  At this point, before WW2, he only has the first half of the embrace though...  The euphoria, death-like experience, and the draining of blood.  We've seen the result in the manor: slow, seemingly immortal zombie-like creatures.  But at that point he somehow had access to Malkavian vitae, which he administered via IV.  The results weren't true vampires but, essentially, he seemed to be scientifically creating insane vampire zombies.

This is what he did to my character, except without the vitae part.  Like half an embrace, one that ended in unspeakable diablery-like horror instead of dark rebirth.  She's currently a bit mindless, but I think that'll end once she dies.

He probably found the vitae source during WW2... many of his notes were in German, which my character fortunately learned as an Allied medic in the war (where she met her sire).  I may need to ask the GM for a reminder about what they said.  This is all so weird, I needed to take notes before I forget.

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on September 15, 2016, 07:12:18 am

....
>they drugged my laudanum
That's kinda the point.  ;P

Indeed :P
Basically we all got laudanum, the Gangrel just asked for it.  My character asked for water but figured she was being drugged, the point was to get captured.  She almost stayed awake, even.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Kadzar on September 15, 2016, 12:19:04 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on September 15, 2016, 11:52:23 am

-snip-

That all sounds pretty cool. I especially like how you get to explore how your vampire has changed from when they were human and getting to visit the past without having to worry about paradoxes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 15, 2016, 12:57:53 pm

I'm running a game in my highschool. I introduced a druid with an appearance similar to Terraria's Dryad, and the party full of underdeveloped teens started giggling and trying to gain her favor. So far, she's the only female character I've introduced and it's the second session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 15, 2016, 01:29:53 pm

Rocks Fall, Everyone is Impotent.

Meanwhile, I'm putting together a Warlord (Path of War 3rd-party class, it's pretty cool). The DM is pretty lenient on a few things so I'm able to play an Orc, and with a +1 Vicious Earthbreaker at third level, to boot. With the weapon's damage, my Strength bonus, and Vicious, I do a minimum of 13 damage per hit. :D

Since my teammates consist of a human magus with a Blinkback belt and shitton of throwing weapons, an Owen Grady imitator with a steam motorcycle, and some guy I forgot who constantly cries acid and has this really awesome winged wolf partner, I'm really looking forward to the campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 15, 2016, 03:32:28 pm

Quote from: tonnot98 on September 15, 2016, 12:57:53 pm

I'm running a game in my highschool. I introduced a druid with an appearance similar to Terraria's Dryad, and the party full of underdeveloped teens started giggling and trying to gain her favor. So far, she's the only female character I've introduced and it's the second session.

Punish them if they get out of hand.

Throw sex ghosts at them. Teach them about GhoSTDs the hard way. It'll be like a life lesson.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 15, 2016, 06:28:53 pm

Quote from: tonnot98 on September 15, 2016, 12:57:53 pm

I'm running a game in my highschool. I introduced a druid with an appearance similar to Terraria's Dryad, and the party full of underdeveloped teens started giggling and trying to gain her favor. So far, she's the only female character I've introduced and it's the second session.

Become Pavlov.

When female characters are around, make bad stuff happen, but don't link it to them directly. Like, maybe the Dryad comes to talk to them and the party is attacked by bandits. Or they go to meet the Lady of the town when SUDDENLY ASSASIN. Done correctly, this will train your players to fear the consequences of female interaction and guarantee you D&D sessions for years to come.

Some say that stunting the emotional growth of your peers to permit more tabletop is immoral. I believe its positively delightful compared to what we do to dwarfs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 15, 2016, 07:07:45 pm

Ha!  I was going to suggest succubi, pretty much along the same lines.  It's almost like they're in DND to punish players for going magical-realm.

Though...  You're saying consequences when female NPCs are around.  Can't agree with that.  Giving consequences for immaturity is one thing, associating women with trouble is something else :P

The brave adventurers should be able to treat a powerful druid with respect, especially once rebuffed.  Harmless flirting is harmless but it soon becomes disrespectful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 16, 2016, 01:00:28 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on September 15, 2016, 07:07:45 pm

Harmless flirting is harmless but it soon becomes disrespectful.

It immediately became disrespectful, the Aarakocra in the group decided to fly up and perch on her shoulders while she was addressing some soldiers and hunters. She then blinked away and scolded him for his actions. Later, the Druid turned into a burrowing animal and started running away as soon as the party got into a fight, after saying that she must do something. Most of the party then regarded her as a coward, and the player of the Aarakocra said he's gonna try and get the druid in bed with him.

Any !!FUN!! ways to deal with this dumbassery? Maybe termites?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 16, 2016, 01:21:51 pm

I again suggest incorporeal creatures. Bastards to deal with. Though I imagine that an incorporeal swarm would be even worse.

Find something that leaves some nasty after effects. They're ethereal, and venereal!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 16, 2016, 01:30:24 pm

Be careful how you handle this problem, your response has to be measured, you actually can't afford to go overboard.  Handing out some consequences for the party's behavior is warranted, but if it goes beyond consequences and into retribution, you are abusing your position as DM.

Keep in mind that the group is there to have fun, not to blindly follow the story you have created.  This occasionally turns into situations like you have here, your job in these instances is to try to keep things flowing, not mete out punishment.  The simplest solution here is to have the druid leave.  There are many adventurers after all, and the players are being disrespectful, so take away the target and move them on to something else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 16, 2016, 01:43:52 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on September 16, 2016, 01:30:24 pm

Be careful how you handle this problem, your response has to be measured, you actually can't afford to go overboard.  Handing out some consequences for the party's behavior is warranted, but if it goes beyond consequences and into retribution, you are abusing your position as DM.

Keep in mind that the group is there to have fun, not to blindly follow the story you have created.  This occasionally turns into situations like you have here, your job in these instances is to try to keep things flowing, not mete out punishment.  The simplest solution here is to have the druid leave.  There are many adventurers after all, and the players are being disrespectful, so take away the target and move them on to something else.

Yeah, pretty much this. Have the druid be looking for other adventurers (generate a party of NPCs with NPC classes, for example, that are more than willing to work for a reduced rate, but are also blisteringly incompetent once they get down to the actual job for hilarity). Roleplay the horrible lot in life that a druid must deal with, compromising either her objectives or her dignity in dealing with a party determined to be assholes to her. Have her be less cooperative, but don't veer into retribution. Have her interpret the Aarakocra's player's advances as attempting to make amends, and if he makes a shameless move after initially winning her over with seeming sincerity, have that be what makes her snap and try to tear him limb from limb in bear form, or try and lead them to their deaths (possibly turning her Neutral Evil in the process). Have them befriend an absolutely horrible NPC that enjoys their antics! Play up the conflict rather than try to shut it down. Drama!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: NJW2000 on September 16, 2016, 02:03:49 pm

In the "Fresher's Fayre" (in which school clubs are introduced at the start of the year, each holding a stall to attract potential new members) I was surprised to discover a DnD club. Didn't think it was a very popular in the UK right now. Sadly it was run by a bunch of eleven year olds, so probably wouldn't be as interesting as the stuff I hear about on here... the roleplay would not be humourous or involving, and I doubt there would be much deviation from the main rulebook...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: miauw62 on September 16, 2016, 02:15:47 pm

Man, players are dropping left and right. I might not pull through with trying to DM if I'm left with a group I don't want to DM for :/

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: tonnot98 on September 16, 2016, 09:46:14 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on September 16, 2016, 01:43:52 pm

Yeah, pretty much this. Have the druid be looking for other adventurers (generate a party of NPCs with NPC classes, for example, that are more than willing to work for a reduced rate, but are also blisteringly incompetent once they get down to the actual job for hilarity).

I'm pretty sure that my party would easily out-dumb the "incompetent" party, and there's little-to-no cohesion within the party, either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 17, 2016, 02:03:18 am

I gotta say, my group's samurai is rocking the game currently. They're level 5, and he's pretty much carried the party to where they are now. Just recently had an encounter with a basilisk, and since he had blind-fight, it was up to him to tank the beastie while everyone else cowered inside an Obscuring Mist spell. It took him just two hits to take it down, though a big critical right at the start helped. They'll be talking about that one for awhile no doubt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 17, 2016, 03:27:25 am

Quote from: tonnot98 on September 16, 2016, 09:46:14 pm

I'm pretty sure that my party would easily out-dumb the "incompetent" party, and there's little-to-no cohesion within the party, either.

Make a valiant attempt to out-dumb them, then. It'll be a fun DMing challenge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 17, 2016, 03:45:09 am

Quote

but if it goes beyond consequences and into retribution, you are abusing your position as DM.

DM's should avoid consequences in general anyhow. As they railroad the party :P

I don't personally believe this... my experiences though tell me that players HATE consequences.

They also hate responsibility and connections.

---

Ok more seriously. It is how you present things.

Trust me: Even the lightest punishment will come off as vindictive if not handled well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 17, 2016, 08:04:00 am

I support actions having consequences.

For example, in my current game an alchemist was offering a thousand gold to every person who accepted an experimental brew he'd created. Of course two of the players jumped at the offer of a thousand gold. Each day they now have to roll a Fortitude save, which only a natural 20 can cure them of the effects, and if they fail to cure themselves, a random symptom occurs, with a 25% chance it causes a detrimental effect.

Plus, it turns out the alchemist in question robbed the alchemist's guild to fund his unlicensed research project, so now the group has gained enemies within the guild. Seriously, if you get told the gnome NPC is named Tanstaafl, you should really take the hint and think twice about making easy money.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 17, 2016, 08:08:10 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 17, 2016, 08:04:00 am

roll a Fortitude save, which only a natural 20 can cure them of the effects

Not really a fort save then is it? Unless they both happen to have the same fort I guess?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 17, 2016, 08:12:48 am

There's specific abilities that allow you to reroll saving throws which couldn't be used if you were to make it a straight percentile dice roll, so that's specifically why I made it a Fortitude save. Plus there's always the option to choose to fail the saving throw if they actually like having the effects, which are mostly beneficial. Some of the nicer ones include invisibility, resist energy 30 or a +2 alchemical bonus to stats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 17, 2016, 01:00:25 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on September 17, 2016, 08:04:00 am

I support actions having consequences.

For example, in my current game an alchemist was offering a thousand gold to every person who accepted an experimental brew he'd created. Of course two of the players jumped at the offer of a thousand gold. Each day they now have to roll a Fortitude save, which only a natural 20 can cure them of the effects, and if they fail to cure themselves, a random symptom occurs, with a 25% chance it causes a detrimental effect.

Plus, it turns out the alchemist in question robbed the alchemist's guild to fund his unlicensed research project, so now the group has gained enemies within the guild. Seriously, if you get told the gnome NPC is named Tanstaafl, you should really take the hint and think twice about making easy money.

That is kind of not REALLY a consequence... at least not yet.

Well unless that guild was giving you lots and lots of money and now stopped.

A consequence has to effect your normal lives somehow. Even if it is as lightly has losing 1000 gold.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 17, 2016, 01:09:50 pm

ok neon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: scriver on September 17, 2016, 01:17:33 pm

How ie it not a consequence? What is a consequence to you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 17, 2016, 01:23:24 pm

I think what he means is that it's not a consequence if what you can't do anymore wasn't something you were going to do anyway. Which is a good point (in the vein of "oh no, some piece of shit I don't care about doesn't like me! whatever shall I do!"), but might be misplaced here, since a guild of alchemists is where you'll likely be getting your potions from.

I mean, they'll still sell them to you at a mischievous markup. They'll just be... a little milkier than the ones the Champions From Over There tend to have.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 18, 2016, 02:57:23 am

It's an excuse to have Bad Things^™ happen to the party. Like a party of hired enforcers with an alchemical golem raid their stronghold, or an alchemist poisoner start targeting their NPC cohorts and family. They can either seek to mend fences with the guild or take the fight to them, or ignore it and simply deal with the problems as they arise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on September 18, 2016, 07:51:14 am

I enjoy having actions have... effects in role playing games at the very least.  I mean, if burning down an Inn and starting a plague causes a bunch of mobsters to come after you because that inn was ran by one of their mothers then it feels like the world is alive.  If nothing happens from the things you do it feels like a poorly made RPG computer game, you know one of those ones where even though the world is being destroyed if you go back to the original town the sun is still shining and everyone says the same lines still.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 18, 2016, 09:23:32 am

Yep, I also gave my players an adventure hook early in the game when the innkeeper discovered a crate of whiskey was stolen from her storeroom. Players decided to ignore the adventure hook and run off to another location, but when they came back the next day the inn was burned down that night by a group of drunken goblins.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on September 18, 2016, 12:20:34 pm

I mean, I don't agree with the 'every time we ignore the railroad bad shit happens' scenario.  Especially the thing where you did the, hey you could roll a nat 20 and get over the effect otherwise I'm gonna fuck you up.  Like sure, drunken goblins could burn down the bar, or they could get into something with a merchant caravan, or the thefts keep happening so the bar goes out of business.  But if it's a sort of... Mass Effect thing I guess, where if we don't take care of every plot hook for everyone, everyone dies it's just as bad.

Heck, toss it up once in awhile where doing the weird things or ignoring stuff has a positive outcome.
EX:Missing princess isn't missing, she eloped with her true love.  You go out and kill the dragon, drag the princess back and she's sold off to the prince of a foreign nation she hates and it turns out you murdered her shape-shifting lover.:Not killing the dragon in this scenario would be a way better outcome.  Though sure, it means the party doesn't get hailed by the king as heroes but maybe said wizard-boyfriend helps them out in some otherway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2016, 12:33:02 pm

Though there should be some hints during the quest itself so the party doesn't kill a dragon just to get an out-of-nowhere "You were the baddies".  "You were the baddies" is good when the party didn't care to investigate, or even mechanically failed to investigate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 19, 2016, 06:38:10 am

There's also been options for the group to accept a beheaded lich's quest to help him find his body, or more recently a quest to investigate the ruins of a necromancer's tower that was declared off-limits by royal decree. Both times the party decided not to accept the adventure due to the possibility of bad things happening. There's plenty of times when avoiding the quest results in a better outcome.

At the end of the day though, a DM's role is to create conflicts for the group. A story without conflict is a story without adventure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 19, 2016, 06:50:26 pm

Conflict: there is no conflict. All the races are in perfect harmony, trading and communicating peacefully. The PCs have to scour the realm for even a hint of bandits or goblin attacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 19, 2016, 06:55:28 pm

Maybe that would actually be a decent campaign setting?  Particularly if the players say they want to play evil characters.
A setting with lasting peace, where the PCs have to stir up trouble which they then profit from.
Probably starting from a background of petty raiding, which they could play through or just have as backstory.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 19, 2016, 07:17:12 pm

Seperate mini-campaigns where one or two players stirs up trouble (stealing a few jewels and leaving them in a peasant's house, murdering someone and leaving the knife in a goblin cave), then "solving" the "problem"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 19, 2016, 07:20:56 pm

Slaves to Armok: God of Blood: Chapter III: Dwarf Fortress: The Tabletop Game?

All things considered, it can be a relatively calm setting.

I kind of thought of doing a campaign based on Dwarf Fortress stories, actually. More like a mini-module, actually. But I have no experience in world-building, and am a bit lazy in making a shit-ton of NPCs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on September 20, 2016, 12:37:11 am

My group ran a one-shot goblin scenario yesterday. A party of consensually NE characters is hilarious, and roleplaying a goblin cleric may be the most fun I've ever had playing d20.

Horse does not scare Poog!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on September 25, 2016, 09:17:40 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on September 19, 2016, 07:20:56 pm

Slaves to Armok: God of Blood: Chapter III: Dwarf Fortress: The Tabletop Game?

All things considered, it can be a relatively calm setting.

I kind of thought of doing a campaign based on Dwarf Fortress stories, actually. More like a mini-module, actually. But I have no experience in world-building, and am a bit lazy in making a shit-ton of NPCs.

I did that by having my part run through Necrothreat, which was an abandoned dwarven fortress. Party fought undead and then the equivalent of husks and thralls as they got deeper. The final battle was against a necromancer who could control living shadow as well as the undead, and he summoned every deceased party member as well as clones of party members who were still alive.

Party wizard sent the necromancer into the magma below, only to slay the clones and their risen allies and the necromancer climbs back out in an exoskeleton of millions of living shadows.

He killed the secondary tank in one turn but the party killed him in three or four turns. I had to increase his max HP because they did about 150+ damage per turn collectively in 4e

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on September 25, 2016, 01:47:08 pm

Divine spellcasters automatically know all spells at their level. Wow. Never actually had the opportunity to get this far into playing one.

For context, my group is running a post-apocalypse campaign. Every character starts with one level in an NPC class. 20 point buy, to encourage creativity in builds.

This may or may not be related to the fact that I am running a catfolk adept, planning to level into cleric.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on September 25, 2016, 10:06:13 pm

Also, off to a great start combat-wise in our new campaign.

The tank turned a goblin into a bloody pulp.

On other notes, I made a guy nearly soil himself because when a guy puts a gun to your head, you know he's a good shot, and he just told you you're in between him and his bounty mark, you're gonna have a bad time. I also scared an easily terrified party member, but that's easy.

On another note, two of my players who are getting the hang of D&D are looking into the tabletop adaptations of their Favorite games: Shadowrun and Vampire The Masqarade. Both want to do a one off game to see how it is, and everyone is pretty cool with it except two players (one who doesn't give a fuck and the other is too busy to answer)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on September 25, 2016, 10:10:54 pm

Wish I could do some DnD or similar, but... D'you suppose there'd be any DnD going on at a small town's high school's Game Club? Alternatively, a PnP going on in the FG&RP that's easy to get into?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 25, 2016, 10:35:51 pm

D&D games pop up in FG&RPing all the time, a vast majority of them die off almost immediately, but some of them stick around for a while (and a rare few actually last for a substantial amount of time). If you stick around and check every once in a while you'll see em.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: highmax28 on September 25, 2016, 10:45:53 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on September 25, 2016, 10:35:51 pm

D&D games pop up in FG&RPing all the time, a vast majority of them die off almost immediately, but some of them stick around for a while (and a rare few actually last for a substantial amount of time). If you stick around and check every once in a while you'll see em.

Quote from: Dozebôm Lolumzalìs on September 25, 2016, 10:10:54 pm

Wish I could do some DnD or similar, but... D'you suppose there'd be any DnD going on at a small town's high school's Game Club? Alternatively, a PnP going on in the FG&RP that's easy to get into?

I just ended mine because it was hard to manage with class and such. If you find a devoted GM and a good group, you'll find yourself having fun. I recommend gathering people for a roll20 game. Its not my cup of tea since everyone in my group is in a different time zone (and by that, most of them are in Europe and I'm in Canada, and I don't know where in the world one is...) but if you're lucky, you'll find people willing to do it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 28, 2016, 05:26:13 am

Friday night game's coming, and the party's on the road again through a forest towards an elven city. Also, this coming night will be a full moon.

Naturally, I've prepped a werewolf troll and his pack of dire wolves for them. DR 10/silver, regeneration 5. They're so screwed.

Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 28, 2016, 05:34:14 am

;-;

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 28, 2016, 07:02:39 am

I feast on discarded character sheets and drink the tears of my players.

(Actually to be honest, I only killed one player so far in the game I run, and that was completely on them for going off solo and bleeding out after a trap).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on September 28, 2016, 07:08:03 am

This is why you always, always carry a silvered weapon or a vial of alchemical silver. You never know when you might run into werewolves or devils.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 28, 2016, 11:10:44 am

Realistically, without evidence of their existence or firsthand experience with them (like a werewolf hunter or the like), the common adventurer wouldn't think to prepare for any werewolves. Regular, boring orcs and goblins are much more likely enemies, and spending the extra money on the silver wouldn't be worth it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Rolan7 on September 28, 2016, 11:49:06 am

We're still collectively waiting for that theoretical monster weak against 10-ft-poles, caltrops, oil of Shillelagh, and a water clock.
Adventurers:  Boy Scouts ain't prepared for [dire bat guano]!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on September 28, 2016, 11:54:17 am

Maybe I've been spoiled playing an archer with the ability to carry an appreciable arsenal of specialized arrows.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: kilakan on September 28, 2016, 03:23:33 pm

Playing fantasy Green Arrow is always incredibly fun.  Especially if you get the feats that let you fire 4+ of those specialized arrows in a round.  Nothing quite like bleeding, entangling, lighting on fire, and poisoning all in one round.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 28, 2016, 03:25:26 pm

So Scion Second edition is on Kickstarter and I am finding myself aching to kickstart it... but then I kind of have two things holding me back

1) Scion first edition sucked: It was an EXCELLENT game in concept and the story and ideas were the best part about it! but the game was just broke!
2) I... am not DMing anymore because I keep letting people down: I'd be getting a book for no reason other then to look at its pretty pictures and writing

and I guess
3) This kickstarter is only for 1-2 books... it excludes Demigod and god (which to admit... demigod in the first edition was where it broke)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 29, 2016, 08:26:30 am

My players are really going to flip when they discover said Werewolf Troll is wearing a lesser ring of resist fire. No stopping regeneration with torches, and alchemist's fire only works just over 8% of the time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Neonivek on September 29, 2016, 08:57:30 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 29, 2016, 08:26:30 am

My players are really going to flip when they discover said Werewolf Troll is wearing a lesser ring of resist fire. No stopping regeneration with torches, and alchemist's fire only works just over 8% of the time.

Pathfinder? turn him into hamburger.

A LOOOOOOT more dangerous in 3.5

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Jimmy on September 29, 2016, 08:59:43 am

https://youtu.be/8SlWegS2sS0 (https://youtu.be/8SlWegS2sS0)

Give them Ferocity or Diehard and they're still a decent threat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Arx on September 29, 2016, 09:02:05 am

Quote from: kilakan on September 28, 2016, 03:23:33 pm

Playing fantasy Green Arrow is always incredibly fun.  Especially if you get the feats that let you fire 4+ of those specialized arrows in a round.  Nothing quite like bleeding, entangling, lighting on fire, and poisoning all in one round.

We were playing almost only Core, for a number of reasons I agree with, but I still had silvered, fire, and flight (in case I needed to hit an enemy at 1200 feet. You know. As one does).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 04, 2016, 10:54:57 pm

Poll up!  Why?  I don't know, it sounded like fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on October 05, 2016, 03:37:26 am

I don't even know what Palladium is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 05, 2016, 06:34:18 am

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2016, 03:37:26 am

I don't even know what Palladium is.

A game system

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on October 05, 2016, 06:35:48 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 05, 2016, 06:34:18 am

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2016, 03:37:26 am

I don't even know what Palladium is.

A game system

It is also an element.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on October 05, 2016, 07:20:12 am

The stuff Paladins are made from.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 05, 2016, 07:50:09 am

ew

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 05, 2016, 10:19:35 am

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2016, 03:37:26 am

I don't even know what Palladium is.

RIFTS, Robotech RPG, Palladium Fantasy RPG, Macross II RPG, Splicers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other strangeness RPG, After the Bomb, Heroes Unlimited, Dead Reign, RIFTS Chaos Earth, RECON, and several other games, the majority of which fall under Palladium's blanket set of mechanics (with RECON being the prime exception.)  Kevin Siembieda is the main author/editor/egomaniac, as well as owner of the company, he is well known to be a power-tripping lawsuit freak.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on October 05, 2016, 10:32:04 am

I've never played anything except D20 systems and a Fire Emblem fan game, so I probably shouldn't vote  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 05, 2016, 04:31:30 pm

Started a new campaign of D&D today. The world setting can roughly be boiled down to "A mix of M&B: warband, classic D&D world, and Warhammer Fantasy. We were warned by both him and the other group he GMs for in the same world that he is, while not a meat grinder, quite enthusiastic about horrible deaths for people who don't play smart.

We have a 4-man party, consisting of two Paladins, a barbarian and a fighter.One of the paladins is a psychoticslly-angry dragonborn worshipper of an exiled god, the other (moi) is a gnomish noblewoman who is 20 times older than him with a superiority complex that she hides by being disgustingly polite and eloquent and friendly to everything she considers beneath her ( read: the universe). Oh, and she worships the god of death too. The fighter is a retired local foot soldier who fought in the recent civil war along with the barbarian, a dwarf who escaped the destruction of his home city a few years back.

Tbe

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2016, 01:53:14 pm

A psychotic dragon paladin and a viciously ladylike gnome paladin of death  :o
Sounds like a fighting heavy party but that sounds appropriate for the setting you described.  Sounds like fun antics ahoy!


We're starting a new game today too, NWoD still, but this time we're Possessed!  _{My personal text has long awaited this day...}
The four of us (a friend from SS13 is joining! yay!) are "ghost hunters" in a rural town (again here in NC, play what you know!).  It's pretty much fake of course, except some of us find it legitimately exciting and wonder if there's something to be found, maybe.  And we're entertaining people!

Well that's how my character feels, anyway, I don't know about the other characters just yet.  Excited though  :-X

What I DO know is that we're going to find something...  DEMONS D:<
Demons who want to catch a ride!  In exchange for dark power...  For one thing we stop aging, but that's only the beginning.  Each demon represents a vice of one of our characters.  That vice, normally just an unhealthy way to relax (regain willpower), becomes fuel for some pretty nasty abilities.

The more we fall to sin, the more we become a conduit for demon abilities.  Is it worth it?  (ask Faust)  We do still have our souls and pretty much control out bodies, though.  At least at the beginning.  Demons are insidious and patient.

Our characters:
Pure Greed:  The geeky Egon guy, has all the expensive EM scanners and thermal imaging stuff.  Also rich.  Might actually believe in this ghost stuff.
Pride:  Unknown, but I'm guessing the charismatic star of the show.
Wrath:  Unknown but possibly a tough guy, doing the heavy lifting and asking questions for the audience.
Sloth + Pride:  My character!  A gregarious rural mechanic who holds the camera.  Uses a *lot* of duct tape.  Kinda lanky, though, think Ellis from L4D2 or Scooter from Borderlands.  Prideful about knowing things, a little of everything.

really really really wants to learn telekinesis but holding off on that a few sessions...  hnng...

Power wise:

Spoiler: don't peek, my party!! (click to show/hide)

Sloth 1 (constant) Ease of Thought:  When I wake up I decide how easy I'm going to take it today.  I get up to +5 on all mental rolls, and take that penalty on physical rolls.  That's kinda huge (PARTICULARLY WITH TELEKINESIS BUT NO I WILL BE STRONG)
Pride 1 (constant) Dominant Sphere (Mental):  Whenever I make a mental skill check and succeed, I get a willpower for being the best.  This is *huge*.  If I somehow fail... like that can even happen... I lose one instead.  But that is INCONCEIVABLE
Sloth 2 (costs a willpower per scene) Fester:  If I harm someone, they get infected with an exhausting fever and have to roll just to act.

I'm sorry, I'm just really excited...  I gotta go walking, there are hours before we actually play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on October 12, 2016, 03:39:13 pm

Why would I ask Faust? He was wrong :P

but man, please keep us (or at least me, in this public forum) updated! Your games are always worth a read.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 12, 2016, 05:16:11 pm

Aw, I just realised last weeks game post got eaten by the forum.

RECAP: Party assembles itself through mild violence and the gnome lady climbing on top of the dragon, pointing at the dwarf and human, and saying in a clear, crisp, aristocratic tone, "Look, Balthazar! Drunkards!". A punchup ensued. Then some zealot soldiers from a vaguely-hostile land showed up, and the dwarf started a fistfight with their leader. A few drunken swings in, the dragonborn paladin came downstairs and we found out that they were speciest zealot holy soldiers, and a really nasty fight ensued, their leader being mobbed by angry peasants after failing a will-save against Command: Belittle from the death gnome. Another got mutilated by the dragonborn's axes, and the dwarf smashed one into the floor while he was distracted.
Final one was rapiered into submission, and then the dragonborn cut his throat when he surrendered, making Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata very cross about the loss of her prisoner and also cleanliness. Also the murder, but her god's in favor of that even if she personally isn't.

Then some fukken demonic orc showed up and menaced the barkeeper with his shadowy undead bodyguard/guard dogs by giving her demon cash and stealing the bodies. We all sensed "BBEG hazard do not touch" and hid behind the bar, Minerva Amelia Herionymous Imperiata very angry because her primary belief is that the dead should be undisturbed and therefore hates necromancy.

then we went to bed because we were tired and in the morning found out that a quest hook the blacksmith's daughter had been abducted by gobbos in the night.

---

TODAY: We set off to the tomb where gobs were, being led by a very unreliable prisoner (Bastard made us take two days instead of one), and arrived at the tomb to see a load of guards on duty. Realising that the Barbarian, as the only one not in chainmail, was the sneakiest, we sent him to have a peek in, but they saw him. We all yelled "Alright lets do this" and charged gloriously across the field, and smashed them pretty handily. The barbarian took some serious beating, but he was fine in the end.

Then we took a nap(short rest) and went tomb-diving. (Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata had to stop body mutilation by Balthasar)

There were several traps set by the goblins, but the tomb was a human one and much much older. We found a weird stone door with a swordlike slot in it, and marked it "Interesting". A little later, we found a secret door and another trap, and while the others were arguing about traps and detection, Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata crowbarred the damn thing open and marched straight in. It turned out that there was some sort of wizard study, with mystery vials and a dust-covered Bag of Holding, both of which she claimed on the basis of "Finders Keepers, Especially If The Finder Is Also Me".
There was another door in the study which led to a balcony, and we peeked through, to find more goblins and some spooky priest about to ritually sacrifice the blacksmith's daughter. Also, another one of those stoney doors.
Battle plans were drawn out, two of us would stay on the balcony and use ranged attacks, while the others would charge in from ground level (The passage the secret door was in came to there). Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata charged in, but couldnt quite reach the goblins, so readied her attack action, while the dragonborn flamed two of them and they all threw axes and daggers and stuff. The skirmishey goblin charged in and wailed on the other Paladin, who had jumped down, but landed no real hits while the priest screeched and charged straight into Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata's readied rapier action, where she Smote him most Divinely, rapier dancing mockingly around him until he collapsed in pain.
We mopped up the last goblin and patted down the corpses for cash, while the Dragonborn decided he didnt want to be a puppykicking evildoer and went to befriend the little girl, telling her she was safe, giving her his rations, etcetera.
Examining the big damn door, there was a riddle written on it, to which the answer was the inscription at the base of the statue in the entrance, and when the dwarf said the words the whole thing juddered open, leading into a big tomb chamber.

And then the sarcophagi self-desecrated, the occupants crawling out as a trio of armored undead, two shambling zombies and an alert-looking skeleton in full plate.
Battle was joined, and the barbarian immediately got wailed on after charging in and missing everything, with no Rages left. The others all attacked a zombie on the basis that they were probbably weaker, but it got back up from a brutal hit, as zombies do. We remembered that Radiant damage fucks up undead and also so does Smite... but Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata was out of spells. But Balthasar the dragondude wasn't, and rolled 2d6+2+3d8 damage, exploding a zombie in a burst of green magic (This causes friction with the non-paladins after the fight, as Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata's magic is not bright green, and they're supposed to be worshippin' the same god). The scary skeleton eats rapier-work from Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata, and goes down to a collossal bludgeoning strike from the fighter.

Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata promptly confiscates the skeleton's sword, on the basis that its made of White Steel, apparently the settings own Valyrian Steel, and that it is not disturbing the dead if the dead leap out of the coffins and charge at you. Balthasar shakes the bones out of a full set of plate armor and claims it himself, causing a spat with the fighter who is upset about this artefact of local history being nabbed by the alien foreigne- ahahah, no he wanted it himself, for a sweet sweet 21 AC. We pick up the daughter on the way out, and remember the door with a sword-shaped slot. Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata sticks the sword in the slot, andit rumbles open...

...revealing a room of hidden artefacts, none of which seem remotely of human origin.

These are:
1)A masterwork reaping scythe, which does 4xdice on the crit instead of 2x, <-Human fighter
2)An ornate filigree potions box, suspiciously similar to that offered by a local priest recently <-Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata
3)A padlocked book of the secret history of the order buried in the tomb. <- Dragonborn paladin
4)An arrow, javelin-sized, made wholly of mysterious white substance on which no shadows form.
5)Two masterly-made daggers, on a plinth as a pair but very different, one sleek and spiked and apparently made of white steel like Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata's sword, which has a name I can't remember. The other a horrible black spiked thing, which we later find out causes massive bleeding on a 19/20. <-Dragonborn Paladin
6)An amulet which apparently somehow shields things <-Dwarf Barbarian

With this in tow, we go to set off back to town, remember we left the goblin priest/cult leader bleeding on the floor, and go drag him with us.
On the first night of the way back, the Dragonborn forgets he's being nice now and tortures the cult leader for information, extracts that they were conducting a ritual of immortality and the name of the figure who recruited them, and terrifies the poor girl by slicing the goblins fingers off while he screams and cauterising the stumps. Like, right in the camp, too. Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata is not very pleased, but shrugs it off as a necessity.

The next day we get back into town, have a heartwarming reunion between the blacksmith and his daughter, and the slightly less heartwarming leg-smashing of the goblin by said blacksmith once she's gone inside. We talk a bit, he's immensely thankful, but we turn down his money (Because the filthy heathens amongst the party smashed the funerary urns in the tomb and extracted the monetary offerings within). Then, we become bounty hunters and turn him in to the constabulary. We also find out that the name of the man the goblin claims recruited him is that of the last knight of the order, whose reanimated corpse we probbably re-killed/exploded with divine fire.
After this, we go our seperate ways, Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata uses her nobility to blag her way into the local count's castle and smashes some training dummies (Discovering that the sword is disconcertingly effectve at slicing armored dummies in half), the dwarf starts putting huge spikes all over his armor so he can take a prestige class which runs at enemies with spiked armor, and the others... resupply, I think. We also levelled up to 3, and Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata found out while hobnobbing with the Count that her sword is the legendary sword of the last king of the nation (which is more like a federation of likeminded counts and barons since the kingdom was toppled a century ago) and that if she can master its trials, she has a pretty solid claim on the throne of a human nation.

Oh dear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: UXLZ on October 12, 2016, 08:06:10 pm

Minerva Amelia Heironymous Imperiata sounds like an irritating twat. Unless she's done somewhat comedically, that sort of character can get old real fast. I just hope the player (is it you?) doesn't minmax to oblivion with her.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neyvn on October 20, 2016, 03:21:10 am

Thinking about taking a few players through the "Murder in Baldur's Gate", most are new folk so I don't want to bog them down with making new characters so I am gonna make some Premade characters with their stuff set up and all that to make it easier to get started day 1.
Any ideas of what I should make them, generally 4-5 players seem interested at the moment, looking for a 5ed balanced party that isn't pure combat setup like many new players think DnD is only for. I want these new players to not experience a battle filled DnD for their first game but a, well semi, balanced flow of this module.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 20, 2016, 04:24:40 am

Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Warlock, Bard?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: UXLZ on October 20, 2016, 04:27:01 am

I'd probably suggest Rogue instead of one of Warlock or Sorcerer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 20, 2016, 04:30:36 am

They'd have to be the odd one out in that case, though. Though I guess you can help that by choosing Arcane Trickster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: UXLZ on October 20, 2016, 04:32:40 am

Maybe, but the guy did ask for a more balanced party. I suppose the Cleric can thwack things and the bard can shoot things, but it's super magic-aligned.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 20, 2016, 04:34:35 am

Pretty much every magic class has at least one thwacking cantrip on hand of varying effectiveness. But you could replace one class with a Druid - they get Shillelagh for maximum thwack, and if they take Circle of the Moon (assuming you're doing the typical 5e 3rd level start) they can turn into a variety of menacing animals, so that's a pretty decent choice.

But to address the other concern, the great thing about not having a meatshield is that it makes you consider more whether you want to be getting into a dustup. Especially if you're a dainty wizard or bard type.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neyvn on October 20, 2016, 07:10:54 am

Forgot to mention, it's a 1-3 module.
I am just looking for a good class grouping, I will be doing the rest. Was called to go make dinner when I hit post last one, so couldn't expand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Max™ on October 20, 2016, 08:53:02 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 05, 2016, 10:19:35 am

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2016, 03:37:26 am

I don't even know what Palladium is.

RIFTS, Robotech RPG, Palladium Fantasy RPG, Macross II RPG, Splicers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other strangeness RPG, After the Bomb, Heroes Unlimited, Dead Reign, RIFTS Chaos Earth, RECON, and several other games, the majority of which fall under Palladium's blanket set of mechanics (with RECON being the prime exception.)  Kevin Siembieda is the main author/editor/egomaniac, as well as owner of the company, he is well known to be a power-tripping lawsuit freak.

Yup, it was also a system I was deeply invested in before I discovered how much better Mutants and Masterminds is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: miauw62 on October 20, 2016, 02:48:29 pm

I might get to run a one-off (probably) game in two weeks or so, but I'm unsure to use D&D 5e or some other system. Any advice for a beginning DM and beginning players?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on October 20, 2016, 04:40:32 pm

If it's you're first time, I'd recommend going with Angry GM's advice on the matter (http://theangrygm.com/jumping-the-screen-how-to-run-your-first-rpg-session/).

Too long (understatement); didn't read: Run a published module; have players use pregenerated characters; keep expectations low. DMing is hard enough; you don't need to compound it by trying to create your own world or run an open world adventure your first time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neyvn on October 20, 2016, 07:17:41 pm

Matt Mercer did a vid about how he sets up his DM Screen, something all DMs need to understand how to prepare for themselves. Mind you, his method of organized madness is highly different to your own but looking over it I can see some useful things that I need to add to my DM screen madness...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRMVTmbe-Is

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on October 23, 2016, 10:59:16 am

This demonic campaign is going great so far (2 sessions now) but presents some new challenges to me writing it up.  For one thing, we're paranormal investigators, and my character carries a camera everywhere...  which almost demands a certain narrative style :P
I'm sure once I get started I'll hit a stride.  Right now I'm short on time, which is a good excuse for me to bang out an intro.

The Ghost Cops are a team of 4 buddies from highschool professional paranormal investigators... in that Youtube ads have earned them a couple dollars.  While they have yet to find conclusive proof, per se, they have found all manor of spooky houses.  Yeah, very professional.

Despite all the smoke and mirrors they use to get views (maybe even a subscription, someday), they aren't just fakers.  For one reason or another, they think the truth is out there...  And it's their duty to find it.

(http://i.imgur.com/ArEjlrJ.png)
The team, in front of a burning house??  From left to right:
Brian: The camera hobo.  Ambidextrous.  Sleeps in the van, mooches off the others.  Likes to tinker with scrap and subscribes to the "If it ain't broke, use duct tape anyway."  Isn't enthusiastic about much...  except ghost stories.  Knows, like, everything about ghost stories.  (my character)
Chad: The team mascot.  Sometimes called "Scrappy" for mysterious reasons.  Was the official mascot in high school, apparently got used to being in fursuits.  I'm... not actually sure where he sleeps.
Sean: The suave investigative reporter.  Good at smiling and playing to the camera.  Physically fit, too.  Sells the trickery and half truths while... bless his heart... thinking it's all real.  Owns the van and sleeps in the driver seat, yet carefully maintains his appearance.
Jen: Very well off, but looking for something more out of life.  Has an expensive toolkit of EM readers and special cameras, and knows exactly how to use them.  Her father is basically Mr White from Breaking Bad if nothing went wrong.  Though most of us sleep in the van, said van usually happens to be in her yard, much to the groundskeeper's chagrin.

AKA not-Shaggy, not-Scrappy, not-Fred, not-Daphnelma

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: Yoink on October 23, 2016, 08:13:31 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on September 15, 2016, 06:28:53 pm

Quote from: tonnot98 on September 15, 2016, 12:57:53 pm

I'm running a game in my highschool. I introduced a druid with an appearance similar to Terraria's Dryad, and the party full of underdeveloped teens started giggling and trying to gain her favor. So far, she's the only female character I've introduced and it's the second session.

Become Pavlov.

When female characters are around, make bad stuff happen, but don't link it to them directly. Like, maybe the Dryad comes to talk to them and the party is attacked by bandits. Or they go to meet the Lady of the town when SUDDENLY ASSASIN. Done correctly, this will train your players to fear the consequences of female interaction and guarantee you D&D sessions for years to come.

Some say that stunting the emotional growth of your peers to permit more tabletop is immoral. I believe its positively delightful compared to what we do to dwarfs.

This is super late, but... I've had this post quoted in a reply for at least a few weeks now. It's hilarious.
I can't really think of anything more to add, but this idea made me laugh my arse off at the time. Brilliant. :))


Otherwise... yep, still suffering from a terrible lack of tabletop gaming in my life. Alas.
I tried joined a 'Meetup' group before I moved a few months back, but it was sort of a general, larger group of players meeting regularly, most of their games seemed to be full, and I lacked the confidence to really involve myself and try to get a new game going or force my way into an existing one. :-\
I think there's at least one group who play tabletop in the comic store in town here (I was in there once looking at comics and heard the sound of ham-acting from a table in the next room), but who knows if they have room for more players, let alone if I'd be bothered trying to get involved there either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on October 23, 2016, 09:54:34 pm

Heh.

I had to kelp-strand and boot a half-fiend ally into a stream of plasma (to be fair, he did try to push me in first) but my wizard-druid gestalt is now the proud owner of a plane. One that's connected to the abyss... For now.

As a sylph, she's gonna make it into a floating islands sort of sky preserve after she spins it off the abyss and into its own demiplane orbit.

Then I'm pulling out an incanter cleric (a la spheres of power) undine who worships the Traveller to see the party through the rest of the campaign. Who, every time he heals someone, takes irreducible nonlethal damage until he's able to rest. Beware the Giver of Gifts, eh?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on October 29, 2016, 09:51:21 am

I keep trying to write our new NWoD sessions up but I get bogged down in details which get tricky.  Which is the wrong approach anyway...  Even though some of the details are funny (like Jen's dad being Walter White) or potentially important (the alchemical symbol on the silver whistle).  But nobody needs to hear about our hijinks getting pizza in a one-gas station town.

The Scooby Doo Mystery Gang Ghost Cops got a lead about a house.  Typical spooky stuff (old lady was getting scratched up in the night (it was her cats)).  Thing is, the Ouija board worked.  Actually worked, there in that damp basement.  And Jen's expensive EMF equipment was going hairwire... at least until its battery drained, as did our flashlights. 

By candlelight we listened to the "ghost", supposedly the lady's late husband.  It told us about the cats... but in exchange, it had a request.  See, we had placed the Ouija board on an ornate little box.  He wanted it open.  Despite our genuine enthusiasm over the occult being real, we were... hesitant...  which is when the roaches emerged from the walls.

My camera guy and Jen the paranormal tech expert managed to pull away from the Ouija board and run, blind, through the roaches to the exit.  We did not hang up the call...  Apparently, that has implications.

A few minutes later our charming yet somewhat idiotic "lead reporter" emerged with the board and the box.  It was still closed though - we were professionals, and needed to get the unboxing on video!  None of us seriously considered not opening it.  The roaches were freaky, and dark clouds had swooped in from *nowhere*, but that was meant this was REAL.  We housed the camera in a small faraday cage to prevent the battery drain, took some establishing shots of the dark sky, and opened that sucker up.

A small silver whistle.

"I think it wants me to blow it".  "Don't worry man, we can fix that in post."  "Fix what?"  He blows the whistle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on October 29, 2016, 12:35:25 pm

If our characters seem weirdly cool with this, keep in mind that they're about 25 and have been doing this since high school.  They also live out in the boonies, bored as all hell.  They needed this stuff to be real, yet barely hoped that it actually might *be*.  All this spookiness is basically validating their life choices.

So, the whistle...  checking my notes...
Basically Sean blew it then fell to the ground, argued with himself for a while, threw the whistle, then Sean stood back up and acted like everything was fine.
Mmmm-hm.  We obviously knew something was up but decided to keep an eye (and the camera) on him.

Also the whistle turned brass or something and had a strange alchemical symbol on it, and the Ouija board kept repeating "husk".
Mm-hmmmm.  Great footage, team!  We were still honestly just excited that magic was real, and figured Sean was just high on thaum or something.  It's not like we abandoned him!  In fact we studied him with intense interest.

We decided to spend the night because why not, free house, and the lady expected us to.  OOC because the rest of us expected to get our powers too somehow :P  I expected to get mine from the cats, but just got scratches ):  Sean drove off in the night (after kicking our Scrappy-do Chad out of the van) which was weird.  And I think we had a prophetic dream...  might have been later...  not sure.

The next morning Chad shoved my character awake (this became a trend) and called Sean.  Fortunately he seemed back to normal, though he didn't remember anything after blowing the whistle.  Just woke up parked on the side of the road about 20 miles away.  How mysterious!  He drove back.

... And then we reminded the GM that the van is literally riddles with cameras (which we did establish before!) so we got to see footage of Sean perched on top of the van, naked, howling at the moon and beating his chest.  As before, we were surprisingly okay with this (especially Sean), particularly since Sean seemed mostly back to his own self instead of obviously possessed.

That was basically that.  We told the woman about the cats and that her husband loved her very much, and then spent a couple days just editing the footage for our BIG BREAK!  And sure enough, when it hit Youtube, we got like 40 subscribers!  Plus a lot of recognition from the paranormal community.  Many wanted to know how we faked everything, but a lot of people seemed to really believe and want to know more.  It was the recognition we'd always wanted.

In fact, we got noticed by something greater than we could ever have imagined...
I mean, of course, the Ghost Hunters of the SciFi channel!!! (2006, so no SyFy nonsense).
And they wanted our... help...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 30, 2016, 01:38:00 am

'Nother round of me being Magic Jar'd and killing a teammate. At least it was only one this time.

Though we found out that Magic Jar/Possession isn't that powerful. You don't get the victim's abilities; just their body. I shouldn't have been kicking so much ass in either of the instances in which I was a hijacking spirit's bitch.

Also been looking at some of the 3rd party stuff for the Kineticist. The idea of a Time-Bender is weird, but it exists.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on October 30, 2016, 05:09:43 am

Beware the rabbit-hole of 3rd party archetypes. That way madness lies.

My campaign has just introduced what I hope to be a recurring villain. Our group of murderhobos (APL: 6) rescued an orc from a cage at a crossroads who claimed to have been wrongfully imprisoned for kidnapping three children from a local village. They learn that the orc was actually a huntress seeking revenge for the murder of five orc children from her tribe by our BBEG.

Adventure bait is swallowed hook, line and sinker, and the party frees the orc and she leads them to the bad guy's hideout. She tells them the BBEG has allied with a hag who commands a group of ogres for muscle.

The group murder the ogres, murder the annis hag, kill a half dozen small fire elementals and then successfully engage a greater barghest with conversation rather than violence. Said barghest is, of course, a complete a-hole about revealing anything more than the barest of information, but agrees to assist them if they return with the BBEG's corpse.

They retreat and rest, come back at full strength and discover the next room is protected by five allips bearing the features of the dead orc children. Background is that the hag turned their spirits into allips. Party take some serious wisdom damage but survive and open the door to the BBEG's chambers.

The BBEG is in fact a Summoner, currently engaged with a Planar Binding of an efreeti. The efreeti is within a circle of silver powder, and as combat starts it roars to be freed. One of the characters does in fact free it by breaking the circle, meaning it aids the party in attacking the BBEG, turning a CR 10 fight into a CR 8. The party kill the Summoner, but two of the group fall unconscious during the fight. The party rogue is currently unconscious, but the samurai is at full health, the telekineticist is in pretty good shape, and the cleric is at half health but currently lacking any spellcasting ability due to wisdom damage. The last player, a magus/cavalier multiclass, is in pretty bad shape.

We left off for that session as the BBEG was slain, but for next week's session I have planned the resolution of the encounter with the efreeti. Currently, I believe the players think the efreeti is a large fire elemental, since I deliberately used a token for one and described it as a "burning giant humanoid figure" when they saw it. Nobody has attempted a Knowledge: The Planes check to figure out what it was, though savvy players might note that it spoke in Common, which elementals don't know.

Had the group left the efreeti inside the binding circle, they could have possibly pumped it for a few wishes in exchange for freedom. Since they freed it, it won't willingly grant them wishes, but it won't attack them without provocation since they assisted its escape. However, it will attempt to take the three children from the local village as slaves before plane shifting back home to the City of Brass. We've got a strong anti-slavery theme in the party, which means conflict is pretty likely.

One option I did consider is having the group be offered a trade of the three children for the orc NPC in exchange, since a trained warrior is more valuable as a slave. Currently the orc treats the magus/cavalier as her master who's owed a life-debt (said character has Leadership, so the orc counts as an NPC follower). I've got the orc as a worshipper of Lanishra, orc god of slaves, so if her 'master' orders it, she'll willingly submit to being exchanged, since she genuinely believes she has no rights except to do her master's will.

I'm pretty sure the efreeti will beat them like they were foster children if they go the combat route. I'll probably just have him knock them out and leave them alive out of respect for freeing him. They're pretty worse for wear after the boss fight against a CR 10 Summoner and her pet eidolon, with only the samurai and possibly the telekineticist capable of putting out any significant damage right now. From the efreeti's perspective, the battle is over and it's time to loot the corpse. To him, slaves are a valid form of loot, so it's simply intent on getting something from having spent a few days of its time stuck in a summoner's circle.

As far as the efreeti goes, it's there not just for the roleplaying fun but also for the opportunity to earn the difference in XP that the group lost by the CR reduction of the boss fight. However, I'm fairly certain that the weakened state of the party means it can probably mop the floor with them right now. I kind of see an efreeti's lawful evil nature to include a strong sense of honour and desire to exact retribution on someone who summoned and trapped it, meaning it would hang around and try to kill the summoner when they're distracted instead of fleeing immediately. It also means the group has a shot of learning that the BBEG had summoned this efreeti before and gained a few wishes, notably a wish to duplicate the Clone spell, meaning they and their eidolon are still alive somewhere (but that the players can also loot the current body).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on October 30, 2016, 10:18:42 am

Thanks for sharing that!  The slavery themes are interesting.  I agree with your lawful take on the Efreeti.  Just because it's evil doesn't mean it has to backstab the party for releasing it.  LE outsiders are all about favors and allies of convenience.

Personally I wouldn't dock them combat XP for releasing it, though...  It was a massive risk on their part, particularly since they barely survived even with its help.  But I guess we've discussed XP rewards for non-stabby actions... to death :P

I guess their choice basically is:  trade away a willing slave, or risk death.  Such dilemmas happen when you deal with a devil...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 30, 2016, 08:37:12 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on October 30, 2016, 05:09:43 am

Beware the rabbit-hole of 3rd party archetypes. That way madness lies.

Ah, I'm well aware of that trap. But Kineticists have so little content, even when you count third party content.

Still doesn't change the fact that Time is a stupid idea for an Avatar/Jedi inspired elemental-bender/telekinetic master class. I get the rest. There's Light, Poison, Sound, and Viscera.

Mostly I'm just wishing the official Blood-Bender Archetype was a bit better than a red-coloured water-bender.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on October 30, 2016, 08:47:17 pm

Oddly enough, my overriding image of kineticists isn't actually one of airbenders or firebenders or even Jedi. When you take all of the concepts of base kineticists - burning HP, focus on having a strong body, and taking combat rounds to charge up attacks which deal potentially catastrophic damage - my mind immediately jumps to Dragonball/Dragonball Z. Especially Z, when energy attacks and episodes-long charge-fests became far more common.

Quote from: Pathfinder SRD

Gathering power creates an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist, as the energy or matter swirls around her.

Case closed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on October 30, 2016, 08:56:52 pm

Would you believe my group's telekineticist has his overflow power turn his hair bright yellow? And whenever he gathers power, his character says "Ka... me... ha... me..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on October 30, 2016, 08:58:57 pm

I can easily believe that. Were I to ever run a kineticist I fully intend to ape Vegeta as much as possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 30, 2016, 09:01:16 pm

Never thought of the Saiyan connection before. Mostly because they aren't a very Martial class, and their HD could be higher.

Though I see where that idea could come from.

Gathering energy can be risky at times though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 30, 2016, 10:10:46 pm

Overflow power isn't Super Saiyan, that's just Kaioken at most.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kassire on November 01, 2016, 08:33:53 pm

Got my grubby hands on some of the Savage Rifts books. Holy shit is this stuff neat, way simpler than straight up Palladium.

Though in retrospect, being more straight-forward than the Palladium system isn't all that hard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: tonnot98 on November 02, 2016, 03:24:50 pm

I was writing a campaign, and wrote myself an example of a dramatic hammering, should a group member ever get incarcerated by the already cruel and untrusting dwarves.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(The hammerdwarf looks up to you, and then looks to your knees, and in an instant he swings his hammer for them. *roll* You hear a crack and fall to your other knee, and feel the same hammer wholloped against your chest. *roll* You fall backwards, not hitting the floor for you are suspended by the chains. Pain is jolting through your whole body as you see the dwarf raise his hammer for another strike, this time aimed for your head. *dex save* *roll* You swing yourself to the right, giving a wide berth between you and the hammer, which has now struck the chain holding your left arm. The chain doesn't look too damaged. The hammerer puts his foot out as he gears up for another swing. *dex save* You try to dodge again, but he brings the hammer down hard upon your shoulder. *roll* The hammerer backs up, observing you for a moment. *con save* You manage to stand yourself up, against the pain and injuries. The hammerer readies himself before lunging for you. *dex save* The hammerer misjudges his distance, and before he can bring his hammer down, you deliver an unexpected kick to his chest. He dropped the hammer, and stumbles backwards. You see the guards around you ready their spears....)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on November 03, 2016, 11:20:28 am

(I'm two sessions behind but I'm going to share a snippet from last night's session)

The four of us squeezed into the booth, roughly facing the two strange, pale men.  It was midnight, yet they wore thick sunglasses and had their fedoras tipped low over their faces.  Clearly something to hide.  They each carried a heavy metal briefcase.

They seemed uncomfortable in such a public place.  The meet had originally been scheduled for an abandoned field in the boonies - an obvious trap.  But when we (well, I) accidentally killed a man while preparing the area (I thought he was a vampire!), they panicked and agreed to meet here.

For vampires, they were nervous.  Scared.  Why were they making us a deal?  Whatever the reason, they placed the briefcases on the table and explained their demands.  We would stop reporting on the paranormal.  We would not upload our (blurry) vampire footage.  We would take their generous offer and retire in comfort.  One million dollars.

"The offer is good..."
"The money is VERY good!"
"But, to abandon our quest?  We are chosen..."  (That's me, always the lone voice advocating the main plot :P)
"What if I killed your partner right now?"

All eyes turned to Chad, sitting there in his Scrappy Do fursuit. 
"Uh, I guess you'd get arrested?" 
"Mm I dunno, I want to try it." 
"...I'd rip your head off your neck." 
"I'd like to see you try."

We actually managed to discuss terms a little bit while this was happening, but honestly...  We weren't completely opposed to Chad's plan.  It was incredibly dangerous, but he was taking the lead for us.  He did shout a guy into unconsciousness yesterday.  The other vampire, already nervous, lost his cool and unlocked his briefcase.  "T-that's enough!  Behold!"

White powder burst out of the case.

Jen and I were seated on the outside of the booth, and reacted quickly...  stumbling back from the table.  Jen pulled a syringe-gun, while I coughed and fell on the floor, weakened by the bacteria.  I looked up.  Chad was preparing to vault the table, and Sean had turned his skin to marble.  "You should not have done that..." said Jen.  I hesitated.  But when one of the vampires growled and began extending wolverine=like claws, I closed my eyes and pressed the button.

"Maxim 20:  If you're not willing to shell your own position, you're not willing to win." - 70 Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

Spoiler: This narrative is actually maybe kinda disturbingly violent, in retrospect.  Honest warning. (click to show/hide)

The window shattered as our van, parked right outside, exploded.  The air filled with shards of petroleum-coated metal, expensive dildos, cow manure, and cheap SC fireworks which stubbornly refused to ignite.  The intense heat instantly reduced the vampire at the window into a fine ash, which settled on the seat.  Something in the pile vibrated loudly.  The claw-vampire, missing his arm and most of his torso, hissed in terror and scampered away like an animal...  only to collapse into ash as well.  The Beast doesn't know how to stop-drop-roll.

Outside, the two bodyguards turned out to... not be vampires.  One collapsed, unconscious and burning, the other rolled around on the ground trying to put himself out.  I made a total of like... 4 morality rolls.  Along with murdering the farmer earlier (it was self defense!  I thought he was a vampire!  in uh, broad daylight) my character is very close to the dorfen "doesn't care about anything anymore" state.  Though delightfully, I didn't acquire any neuroses from descent into immorality.

So on the downside...  Chad and Sean were both in range of the explosion (though partly shielded by the wall!)  Sean's "armor of contempt", a pride power that makes his skin like marble, helped a lot.  He did promise to beat the crap of me later though (very fair, since our characters don't know how deadly those gangrel claws would have been).  Sean actually leapt through the shattered window, tackled the ghoul who was writhing on the pavement, and finished it off with his bare hands.  This is... actually something of a trend for Sean now...  Afterwards he perched on top of the vampires' car screaming "I AM A GOD" for several minutes.

Chad was considerably less fortunate.  For one thing, he had anthrax.  For another, we started getting really confused about rules   Somehow he was knocked unconscious by the initial blast (anthrax + explosion + intense fire, then he failed his stamina check to stay awake I think).  Jen pulled him out of the booth while I doused his burning fursuit with iced tea, then we attempted to administer first aid.  Our rolls were... astronomically unlucky.  Mostly mine, Jen did a good job assisting (though she did roll "1,1,1" once).  Failing caused my willpower to run out almost instantly (the downside to a pride power I have which grants willpower for succeeding).  Without willpower it was especially hopeless.  Even after begging my demon for a last point of will, we failed to save Chad.

except then we reread the rules and found that one success stabilizes, not 8.  8 would restore consciousness
But by that point Chad's player was prepared to move on to a new concept, so yeah, Chad died of a broken heart or something RIP

His demon emerged from the charred corpse with a howl.  Only we could see it (demonsight) as it went for the waitress who had (after like 4 minutes, fuck's sake) called the ambulance.
except apparently she had true faith or something because she got an amazingly good roll, 2% chance-good, instantly repulsing it.  We just stared as it erupted in flames, screaming, and disappeared into hell.  She had noooo idea.

The rest of us were fine though.  We pinned the explosion on the terrorists with all the anthrax and assault rifles.  Helped that we were infected and at the epicenter of the blast.  Turns out the "million dollar" briefcase was actually just 10K, though, I'm not sure what they expected would happen when we counted the money :P  Maybe it was purely a ruse.  We also rescued our editor-contact from the trunk of the vampires' car.  He might be a ghoul but we'll see, also he's joining our party to replace Chad.

We've inadvertently destroyed down many taverns and diners in our time as adventurers, but this had to rank up there with worst cases... particularly considering we're barely tougher than normal humans.  Usually we have DND "hit points" or vampiric abilities or something.  This time we literally just sat down next to a carbomb, then used it.

Spoiler: Visual aid and one of the least absurd rolls of the night.  The Starbucks sign is the waitress (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/pwUhtdU.png?1)

The vampires are gone (dust).  Our van was at the top left.  The guy left of the pink car has been punched to death, by the guy standing on top of the pink car.  Not pictured: several minutes of "I AM A GOD" in shifting rainbow colors.
The random customers to the east actually got out of this alive.  They were too scared to actually see anything, except maybe the man made of marble screaming on top of the pink car.  Hrm.

good thing maximum masquerade-violation is basically our primary campaign goal, as paranormal investigators

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on November 03, 2016, 02:01:22 pm

Horror campaign just ended.

I had the party deal with going into a crypt guarded by a modified death knight. They killed it, and then went in, only to find blood soaked walls and bones licked clean all strewn about the place. They then fought an enemy I custom made that looked like gollum if he was a holocaust survivor, having hardly any muscles to move outside of being near prey. They would get desperate when anything not their own kind was around and got strong due to hunger, and thats when I had then swarm the party (they had 1hp and died if you broke their grapple, but they hit hard).

They then discovered these things fed on their own dead, but they also were more a good source for something... Worse. Something fat and gluttonous, something that would sever their heads and hang them upside down by meat hooks to have their blood drain into pools of blood that these things would drink from.

Party clues in its vampires, and they find their first run in with them. And the description was they looked like junkenstein roadhog from Overwatch with huge jaws. The party kills them easily, but then they enter the refuse room with bodies and severed heads piled up as neatly as you could.

The party tries to discuss what's going on, and me being the asshole DM I am, I rolled a few stealth checks because they got loud with their convo, and they got ambushed by four of these things. One party member dies and another has his animal companion swallowed whole.

They rest up and the dead party member, being a revenant, awakens in the refuse room under piles and piles of dead bodies. They free him, and they then traverse back, only to find out the vampires laid traps out for the party, one of them almost killing a party member if he didn't get out of the way. Wizard rolls a crit and discovered all of the traps and disarmed them.

They make it to the second boss, who is like chucalin (I butchered that) from Final Fantasy Tactics except his legs are buried under so much fat that it can't move, with four sets of intestines in ts mouth to suck up blood from the pools that were depicted in the previous room. He almost wipes the party, but they get a lucky crit on him with a guiding bolt, which instead of turning to ash, he bursts with greenish, coagulated, thick blood (I sprayed the party members with water for effect)

The party took a long rest in this place and were awoken by screaming coming out of a hidden trapdoor that was under the huge vampire's body. Party moved away and then I made a huge mistake about forgetting about the wizard's necklace of fireballs (they just hit level 4) and she decimates six CR2 enemies tht they lured and blasted. Any that survived got killed as they came up to them via spike growth.

They end up getting ambushed by the last ones alive and the party gets wounded but keeps going.

Big mistake on their end.

They go and fight the final boss who was a vampire who was starved for a thousand years due to feeding on other vampires. This thing hit like a truck; he killed the revenant again and then he knocked out the ranger, who died due to death save failures.

They kill it and try to check out the room, only to have the vampire's soul manifest from pure hatred and attack them again. Wizard did max damage on her chromatic orb and insta killed it

They find a mask, and the wizard puts it on, only to find out it releases spikes if blood is applied to it. Wizard dies and the party freaks out.

Wizard then gets back up as a vampire and almost fully drains the cleric; her best friend IRL and in game. She makes an int check to try and save her:

The mask.

She turns her into a vampire as well, as I look at the wizard and say:

"You saw what they did here. You wanted power? You got it.

Now YOU'RE the monster..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NRDL on November 03, 2016, 03:55:03 pm

Please tell me the wizard's name was Dio.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on November 03, 2016, 06:07:12 pm

Quote from: NRDL on November 03, 2016, 03:55:03 pm

Please tell me the wizard's name was Dio.

No, but the NPC who is the adopted son of the questgiver is named Derrik Brandon (and also relevant to the next quest)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on November 03, 2016, 06:48:07 pm

For those who play IRL instead of online, how often do you use physical player handouts at your table?

I've tried giving players a handout of letters with clues in them before, and I'm considering making a map handout for use too. I think it's more exciting when your players can point to a piece of paper and use it as a prop, or draw plans on it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on November 03, 2016, 06:49:55 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on November 03, 2016, 06:48:07 pm

For those who play IRL instead of online, how often do you use physical player handouts at your table?

I've tried giving players a handout of letters with clues in them before, and I'm considering making a map handout for use too. I think it's more exciting when your players can point to a piece of paper and use it as a prop, or draw plans on it.

I sprayed my players with water, I have handouts planned for random encounters, drawings for things I can't make, and I literally threw a mask on the table when they found it.

I try to make it as immersive as possible. Including having minimal light because party doesn't have torches since they use darkvision

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on November 03, 2016, 06:56:43 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on November 03, 2016, 06:48:07 pm

For those who play IRL instead of online, how often do you use physical player handouts at your table?

Fairly often. They're good for important background stuff that people forget in the long gaps between sessions. Like the exact wording of a prophecy or an ancient document/mad wizard's research journal that needs to be cross referenced with other information to be useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on November 04, 2016, 12:23:33 am

I've done a game by candlelight before and we ended up just turning on the lights, since nobody could see their dice or read their sheets. Still, good stuff here, I'm gonna use it! Anyone else come across cool stuff that brings physical objects into a game about imaginary worlds?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 04, 2016, 04:24:47 am

Quote from: Jimmy on November 04, 2016, 12:23:33 am

I've done a game by candlelight before and we ended up just turning on the lights, since nobody could see their dice or read their sheets. Still, good stuff here, I'm gonna use it! Anyone else come across cool stuff that brings physical objects into a game about imaginary worlds?

Menacing Paranoia players with a hoover nozzle while a commie with a flames is grandstanding at them?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on November 04, 2016, 10:32:37 am

Quote from: Jimmy on November 04, 2016, 12:23:33 am

I've done a game by candlelight before and we ended up just turning on the lights, since nobody could see their dice or read their sheets. Still, good stuff here, I'm gonna use it! Anyone else come across cool stuff that brings physical objects into a game about imaginary worlds?

You need a lot of candles for that. I tried it and we managed to do it.

... Although I'm convinced my buddy's table and my case for my tiles will never recover from the spilled wax and almost being set on fire...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on November 16, 2016, 05:21:22 am

I got a paying gig to run a Dungeon World game. 50 bucks. @.@

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on November 16, 2016, 06:07:06 am

That's pretty cool! How does one get one of those?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: UXLZ on November 16, 2016, 06:13:10 am

Probably just having a duded offer that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on November 16, 2016, 07:48:06 am

For me, yea thats exactly what happened. They have a group of players but no one wants to gm.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on November 16, 2016, 10:33:35 pm

Time for me to review what happened last Wednesday's session so it's clear in my mind...  Particularly since it was, ah, a strange night in a lot of ways...
Pretty weird in-game too, as I recall.  (Said recall is particularly imperfect this session, though).

Previously, we carbombed a bunch of vampires while sitting across from said vampires.  That turned out a lot better than expected.  For one thing, it wasn't traced to us, we drove away clean.  On the downside one of us died (That technically wasn't my fault!  We just messed up the rolls a bit then rolled with it). 

Our publicist friend had been taken hostage by the vampires, he was set free.  We chilled in a hospital for about a week until the anthrax and flaming dildo lacerations healed.  Rather than suffer a week of anthrax, my character chose to hand control over to his demon (of sloth).  So the entire week passed for him in a dreamless coma.  Which actually sorta sucked, because he missed some more trippy dream-visions.

He's the only character who actually cares about the dream visions, the two red stars, or Captain Murphy...  Basically Brian is going full-cultist, yet he's the only one who missed revelation this week XD  The others are too busy reveling in their vices and powers to care about the end of the world.
Well that isn't fair...  We're all still working together to record the crazy stuff on ground level!  Gotta get those likes, subscribes, and ad dollars.

I don't have the dream I missed handy, but it was similar to this earlier one: https://youtu.be/kfoJUeyMsOE
The others also dreamwalked into a Family Circus strip where Billy was murdering everybody, or something.

Anyway, we checked out of the hospital.  Sean punched Brian for setting off a car bomb 10 ft away, but Brian satisfied his pride with apology and we were good.  Maybe fortunate that the wrath character died :P
_{(That's what you get for always pushing us off things when he's asleep, fucko)}

There's this creepy possessed kid who self-identifies as our biggest fan.  I... think he met us back in Stem when we got home to Jen's house.  Which is bad because last time we left, he was in prison.  I'm pretty sure he's a shapechanger?  I know he killed two cops and ate one of their guns.

Well basically he forgave us for calling the cops on him.  And beating him up, and leaving him in jail.  (I think he might have an ulterior motive guize).  However the meeting went, I took down some notes on what he said:
The vampires are being so inept because the red stars are acting like mini-suns, and that's driven away (destroyed?) their elders.  So we were dealing with desperate fledglings, which explains a lot.  (Also, I think... yeah, a vampire actually came on live TV and broke the Masquerade.  Basically begging for help, I think.  HI-LARIOUS)

Honestly...  That all may have been of minor importance, mostly ~WoRlDbUiLdInG~ and me keeping notes in public for some reason.  My character found it important, anyway >:

Then we got a job up in Virginia, weird lights.  We investigated, a creepy little demon-possessed girl got in a pissy fit with Sean.  Brian kowtowed and we received safe passage.  The lights were up a mountain.  We drove to the top (Sean insisted he could get the van up the abandoned fireroad... and DID.  Once there, Brian stayed at the van as they investigated a strange stake surrounded by sigils.

In exchange for the corpse of our dead companion, and our memories of him, we each received a true answer about the world.  We basically just confirmed...  Captain Murphy helped summon the dual stars.  There are other cults involved.  These are the end days.

We left, heavily scorched by sacrificial fire (except my character who is smart).

Had this sitting for a few days, finished it up in bits during current session.
We're in a trailer park, watching a cult lead by FUCKING AZRAEL, which has a LITERAL FUCKING HELL-PORTAL in its basement.
Almost all the clergy being children
And they're basically hinting that they have a problem with werewolves
So they opened a gate to hell which is attempting to fray our sanity

I know what side I'm on, a different cult, but basically we're all clutching our heads and sighing.
And also planning to murder one particular guy who we won a race against.
Long story?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on November 17, 2016, 02:26:15 am

"This campaign has basically turned into The Babysitter Club: the RPG." - DM.

We're playing a post-apocalyptic Pathfinder campaign, where some cataclysmic planar event has killed not-quite-everyone or moved them to another plane. But one of the survivors is a young fetchling girl, and since our party consists of: a fatherly farmer-turned-druid, a wandering healer who loves everyone, a distinguished goblin who desperately wants to be accepted, and a duelist and a ranger who are just generally nice guys, most of what we've done has at least on the surface had to do with helping her.

For instance, we just broke through a heavily-trapped hatch into a ruined inn's cellar, ostensibly seeking porridge because that's what Lyra wanted for breakfast. We were actually looking for a lot of other things (like food in general, and utility items), but that was the reason we declared. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 17, 2016, 07:21:42 am

That is fucking adorable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on November 17, 2016, 08:11:59 am

Reminds me of Noh (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Noh).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Yoink on November 19, 2016, 07:27:57 pm

Had an idea for a D&D magic item earlier a few days ago. Now, I've never really played a caster in tabletop, so I don't really have much of a clue what is possible, so I'm wondering how viable this would actually be to, basically, kill a good-aligned person, hollow them out and wear their resurrected skin as a garment to confuse "detect alignment" spells.

Do reanimated things automatically become evil? Would it be possible to, instead of killing them, just use some sort of restorative magic to keep them alive whilst skinning them, possibly the head intact and attached?

Can't remember if there was more to the idea, it was a few days ago but I just now got around to finishing the post.   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on November 19, 2016, 07:55:24 pm

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Angelskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Angelskin)
Pathfinder at the very least already has this.  You just need to skin and cure the hide of an angel.  Voila.   As for reanimating skin, I think there's some hard rules against just tissue undead but I can't be sure, otherwise in every game I've ever been in the answer is that yes, it does detect as evil if undead.   You could possibly have a soul-stone type item that traps the good person's soul and then can cast http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/undetectable-alignment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/undetectable-alignment) once a day.

It's a spell in 3.5 as well  Undetectable Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm).
Honestly the GM/Player really gets to choose how the magic item in question looks, but if you are wearing a skin-suit... even though you might not detect as evil it probably will look evil as all heck to anyone who know's their skins.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on November 19, 2016, 07:58:57 pm

Undead aren't automatically evil...

But remember the setting. Unintelligent undead are TECHNICALLY true neutral but the makeup of their bodies make them detect as evil (Then again they have a natural hostility towards all living. If left to their own devices all unintelligent undead will kill the living)

Intelligent Undead can be of other alignments but the nature of undead tends to push them towards evil USUALLY... and a few outright force them to either corrupt to evil over time or just flat out make them evil.

Ghosts are a type of undead that is consistently any alignment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 20, 2016, 03:56:15 am

I have a terrible habit of almost killing my own party. This time I sprung a trap that spewed AoE negative energy every time it was struck. Though it had to be struck to be disabled. It could also be dispelled or disabled, but I didn't know that at the time.

All I knew was that it was what anchored all the ghosts in the area to the Material Plane, so thump, thump, thump I went. Those ghosts were nasty, too. Damn near killed some of the bulkiest members of the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on November 20, 2016, 06:15:22 pm

I finally started a D&D (5e) group with my friends. The DM accidentally crafted a rather... interesting world. Apparently we're adventuring in a fantasy version of the (mesoamerican-controlled) valley of mexico, and elves come from the equivalent of europe, represented mostly by the DM speaking in a portuguese accent when roleplaying any elf. Party itself is nearly all casters: gnome cleric (me), half-elf sorcerer, gnome mage, human bard, and elf rogue.

And our luck is really weird. In combat, we roll low. Hell, I've rolled two 1s in a row. But outside combat? It's close to 20 if not 20 itself, all the time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on November 20, 2016, 06:23:32 pm

Just finished running an interesting boss fight. I wanted my boss to be a wizard with space powers. But not a full blaster wizard or anything. So instead I had them tonked up on protective buff spells[Most notably Improved Blink] and meleeing with an umbrella spear alongside weak summoned minions.

And wow does a 50% miss chance and reasonably high AC work wonders for damage reduction[Some actual racial damage reduction didn't hurt either]. It took six turns for him to even take a single hit. Like, if you gave those buffs to someone who could deal more then 1d6+1 damage per turn, they'd be quite nasty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on November 26, 2016, 03:00:41 am

Ok if there is one thing I have to give HUGE credit for as far as how Celestials function in Dungeons and dragons... It is how Pathfinder handles Angels AND one other celestial faction I forgot the name of.

Angels are GOOD Outsiders... Not Lawful, not neutral, not chaotic... They are good. It doesn't mean they are the most good. Their gimmick is they represent a evolving or reactionary good. The cost for this are that Angels are by far the most corruptible of the four main celestial groups.

The other are a Neutral Good Outsider. In that while they are good they do not oppose evil and believe it has a place in the universe (unheard of in Dungeons and dragon's blind morality play). Certainly they oppose evil quite often but only so much that evil kind of... does pretty nasty things.

Honestly say what you will about Pathfinder but I actually like how it sets up its universe far better in a LOT of places. Heck the way it separates its Infernals is also excellent with destroyers, dominators, and defilers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 26, 2016, 04:26:00 am

Agathions, I think. Animal-like Neutral Good Outsiders. Not to be mistaken for Archons, which are also often animalistic in form. Or Azatas, which are also often animalistic in form.

My problem with the Evil Outsiders is that it's a bloated category. We have Oni, Asura, Qlippoth, Demon, Devil, Daemon, Demodand, Sahkil, Divs, Kytons, Rakshasa, and probably more that I'm forgetting. Though the bloating complaint could be applied to just about anything in the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on November 26, 2016, 09:30:04 am

I usually limit myself to Bestiary 1&2, the bloat gets a bit out of hand after that. On the other hand, I happily source templates from anywhere. That way at least a horde of zombies is slightly more interesting when a couple of them (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/spellgorged-zombie-template-cr-fixed-tohc) also start belching out Cloudkill spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on November 30, 2016, 08:56:13 am

Working on building my group's latest dungeon. Here's a few excerpts from my notes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Section 2 - The Boneyard

(https://s17.postimg.org/wgsdd46q7/hadramkath_finished_player_map_numbered.jpg)

2: Boneheaps
A small mountain range of bone piles stretch in either direction in a curve, the remains of hundreds of thousands of creatures. The majority appear to be corpses of vermin, with tiny rat skulls, long slender bat bones and dessicated spider exoskeletons layered on the surface, though you see larger bones beneath. The slightest of breezes from your arrival makes the piles shift loosely.
Encounter: Lizardfolk Dread Ghost, 2 Kobold Ghosts
Treasure: Four ancient coins crafted from mithril. They are triangular in shape, with a hole in the middle. On one side is a curved tail and the on the other is a reptilian eye. They are roughly fourteen hundred years old, but due to their construction appear as they did when newly minted. (Coins: 160gp each)

2a: Coal Room
This chamber appears to be a storage area for coal for the furnaces, though the disuse has seen a thick sticky layer of black pitch to ooze across the floor from the coal piles. The air in this room smells strongly of coal tar and volatile chemicals.
Exits: West Stuck Wooden Door (2 in., Hardness 3, 15 hp, Stuck DC 25)
Treasure: A large pile of coal. Two small, rough diamonds are near the bottom. (20gp, 25gp)

2b: The Furnace
A blackened opening like the maw of some great beast sits in the wall of this room. Smoke stains rise up the wall above the opening, and a layer of ash coats the floor. Rusted iron hooks dot the remaining walls at waist and shoulder height, their presence the only remaining evidence of the tools that might once have hung upon them.
Exits: 2a Stuck Wooden Door (2 in., Hardness 3, 15 hp, Stuck DC 25)
Treasure: A cracked ceramic mould sits at the bottom of the furnace, inside of which rests a ruined silver idol. Whatever shape it was once supposed to take was lost when the mould broke in the heat. (55 gp, 11 lb)

2c: Forge Hallway
This corridor is filled with stone shelves for tools and materials, their contents long forgotten and in disarray. Various discoloured stains of brown, green and grey run from the shelves showing where the damp and years of neglect have allowed once precious valuables to decay.
Exits: 2e Locked Trapped Wooden Door (2 in., Hardness 3, 15 hp, Locked DC 30)
Treasure: A large chunk of raw silver ore (25 pounds) (5 gp; 8gp when smelted); A large pile of dismantled copper pipes covered in mold and verdigris (140 pounds) (35gp); A set of four green copper pots of various sizes embossed with a snake styled relief (3 lbs) (8sp, 12sp, 23sp, 30sp; 9gp for the set); a foot-high bronze statuette of a pair of entwined snakes (10 lbs) (80gp)

2d: The Firing Kiln
Shards of broken ceramic and dried lumps of clay litter the floor of this room, dominated by an oven large enough to fit a fully grown man inside. The massive iron door to the oven is closed and barred from your side. The ruined remains of a potter’s wheel sits in the corner flanked by a wall filled with clay containers.
Treasure: Seventy-three clay vials of oil (1 pint each). (1sp each); Six identical wax-sealed clay pots. All appear to be the same weight, but five of the pots hold chemicals that will explode on contact with the air (3d6 damage in 5 foot radius; Ref Save DC: 14 for half damage. Search DC: 28, Disable Device DC: 28). Opening the clay jar while under water circumvents the explosives. The other contains a similar (non-explosive) gelatinous concoction that holds three sapphires. The clay pots can be hurled with a range increment of 10 feet. (Sapphire value: 250 each). [Inside Kiln] A set of three white porcelain ewers, each bearing a blue glaze depicting reptilian creatures engaged in combat with delicate silver trimming along the rim. A fourth, the largest, is shattered, but the silver appears to be salvageable. (15 lbs total) (8gp, 12gp, 20gp, 2gp)

2e: Jeweller’s Workshop
As you open the door the light you carry glitters across the contents of a jeweller’s workshop. Stone workbenches resistant to the ravages of time hold the works of master craftsmen that have lain undisturbed for centuries.
Exits: Locked Trapped Wooden Door (2 in., Hardness 3, 15 hp, Locked DC 30)
Frost Fangs Trap CR 7
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
Trigger location; Duration 3 rounds; Reset none
Effect jets of freezing water (3d6 cold damage, DC 20 Reflex save for half damage); multiple targets (all targets in a 40-ft.-line)
Treasure: An intricately carved ivory rapier scabbard trimmed in electrum and set with three red garnets along its length. There is a small opening at the terminus end to allow the scabbard to be used as a breathing tube, if needed. (445gp), A silver ring shaped into the likeness of a snake eating its tail (4gp); A copper necklace set with a small amulet shaped into a symbol representing a reptilian eye (2gp); A miniature golden chest with tiny emeralds lining the top. The chest is crafted in exquisite detail (75gp) and is matched to perfect scale by a full sized replica of the miniature chest that glitters with emeralds the size of grapes (400 lbs) (7,500 gp)


2f: Stoneworker’s Workshop
Large and small blocks of stone crowd this room, making it difficult to see the full details of its shape. Everywhere you look you see half-finished stonework, carved into anything from columns, flagstones or arched supports to finer works of art. The stone statues are uniformly reptilian in appearance and their cold stone eyes seem to glare in anger at your intrusion.
Treasure: A small marble bust of a kobold wearing a ceremonial religious headdress (26 lbs) (7gp); an untouched six-foot cubed block of black granite, suitable for sculpting (1,017 lbs) (10gp); A life-size basalt statue of a raven (11 lbs) (25gp) A 14 ft. tall basalt statue of an armored lizardfolk with spear and shield. (2,413 lbs) (340gp) A magical statuette of white marble, roughly a meter tall that shapes its form to the last sentient being that touched it. It currently has the form of a kobold. It takes one round for their image to be transferred to the statuette when touched. The statuette weighs nearly 200 pounds. (Hardness 15, HP 50). (500gp)

2g: The Way of the Lowborn
[Outer]: Two massive stone doors, each five feet wide by twenty feet tall, stand firm against entrance into the underground city of Hadramkath. A chill crawls up your spine and out over your skin as you look upon them. The carvings on the doors are magnificent, a symphony in stonework -- but given the themes represented, it might be better described as a requiem. Scenes of kobold death, both violent and peaceful, appear on every surface framed by grinning lizardfolk dressed both in noble finery and warrior’s garb. A jagged script is carved into their surface in letters a foot high.

[Draconic]
The way of the lowborn
Beyond their last breath
Is to toil for their masters
In life and in death

Exits: Large Barred Stone Double Doors (4 in., hardness 8, 60 hp, Break DC 32)

[Inner]: The floor of this corridor shows signs of frequent travel between the massive stone doors and a smaller door to the south. The flagstone floor carries twin grooves along the length, as if countless carts had passed this way carrying heavy loads. The stone doors have a long iron bar across their face, still strong despite centuries of rust and decay leaving a scattering of rusted brown flakes across the threshold. The bar hangs across the backs of two kobolds sculpted out of the door’s stone like a heavy yoke, their faces twisted to depict suffering and struggle.

I think they'll be at this one for more than a session or two. Got some devious puzzles planned as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: miauw62 on November 30, 2016, 10:23:17 am

That looks awesome! What tools did you use to make it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 30, 2016, 10:24:39 am

Beautiful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on November 30, 2016, 02:51:44 pm

I picked up that Pathfinder eBook bundle on Humble Bundle at the last minute, so if you want to 'borrow' any of them, shoot me a PM, and I'll sort you out with a copy.

Spoiler: Books inside it (click to show/hide)

Book of Dirty Tricks
The Black Monastery
Quests of Doom
Cults of the Sundered Kingdoms
Unusual Suspects
Streets of Zobeck
Zobeck Gazetteer
Advanced Bestiary
Dead Man's Chest
Against Tsathogga
Cyclopean Deeps Vol. 1-2
Advanced Races Compendium
Your Whispering Homonculus
Halls of the Mountain King
The Mother of All Treasure Tables
Splinters of Faith Vol. 1-10
Deep Magic
Wrath of the River King
Freeport: The City of Adventure

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on November 30, 2016, 05:35:03 pm

The map was made by this guy (https://riotousgm.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/hadramkath/) who stole it from this guy (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/maps/). I just added the room markers and wrote the descriptions by hand. Some inspiration was taken from these guys (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ru/20051026a&page=2) for the room descriptions in a few cases, and the loot was created by this guy (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?347698-100-Minor-Treasures).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 01, 2016, 09:10:07 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 16, 2016, 10:33:35 pm

We're in a trailer park, watching a cult lead by FUCKING AZRAEL, which has a LITERAL FUCKING HELL-PORTAL in its basement.
Almost all the clergy being children
And they're basically hinting that they have a problem with werewolves
So they opened a gate to hell which is attempting to fray our sanity

I know what side I'm on, a different cult, but basically we're all clutching our heads and sighing.
And also planning to murder one particular guy who we won a race against.

Heh, we ended up sparing that cultist.  But he smashed my camera on the way into the church, so after we finished doing diplomacy...  We kinda broke his legs and torched his truck.  We actually cleared this petty revenge with his demonic-children cultmates first.

...Possibly because they sent us to fucking die.  Why did we agree to investigate Mt Rushmore.  They even SAID there were werewolves... and angels... involved.  Well, there sure were a ton of werewolves.

So first, Jen gets us lost literally just for giggles, hehe.  Brian (my character) tries to navigate correctly, but fails his social roll so hard he sounds like he's lying.  On the way to Mt Rushmore from Kentucky, we end up in... Wyoming.  Apparently we drove really fast when we were lost :P

So we end up at an *ancient* gas station in a huge wood, just as we're running out of gas.  Sean goes inside to prepay because the pump doesn't take cards.  An old Native American man charges him $4.50 a gallon, glaring at him and suggesting we leave ASAP.  Sure enough, midway through fueling, a pack of wolves start walking towards us from the trees...  staring at us.  7 bigass wolves.  Brian, currently weak as a child thanks to my power that boosts intelligence, advises GTFO.  Sean jerks the nozzle out (it continues spraying on the ground) and jumps in the van, flooring it.  The wolves close in.

We're accelerating fast, but not really fast enough on the dirt road.  So Jen and Brian have a characteristically stupid but spiteful idea, and open the back of the van to shoot at the gas...  But instead one of the wolves leaps in, tackling Brian by the arm.  I'm almost entirely helpless, but I *do* manage to succeed on a chance roll to shrug it off.  I think Brian lulled it into a sense of security then slapped it in the eye.  It just pounces on him again, but resisting for that round probably saved Brian's arm (or throat).

Jen takes the opportunity to inject it with a syringe of bleach, while "Ronnie Jeremy" just shoots it.  The bleach nearly kills it, the bullet is just enough to finish it.  It turns back...  Yeah, it was a fricking werewolf.  FML.  As Brian lies pinned beneath the corpses's bulk, Jen helpfully destroys its head "just to be sure".  While Ron shoots the gas...  Without modern safeguards, the entire station explodes in a fireball.  The shockwave rocks the van, causing Brian to slide out (fuuuuuuck) which does free him from the corpse.  The werewolves are dazed and fleeing from the fireball, so Brian's able to pick himself up and sprint back into the van. 

Sean did stop for him...  This is actually like the third time Brian has fallen out of the back.  For the rest of the session, Brian made a big deal of buckling in.  Heavily bruised and bleeding out his arm, Brian helpfully informed everyone that the werewolf bite is not a problem and that he definitely won't turn.
Brian is good at making friends, and begging favors, but pretty bad at convincing people of the truth XD

So... crap, that was just the trip *to* Mt Rushmore.  That's when shit really got crazy...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 01, 2016, 09:33:38 pm

As we rolled into town and quibbled over lodging, a meteor struck the base of Mt Rushmore.  Rather spectacularly.
Mt Rushmore was fine, but the meteor... it was green.  Well, that doesn't mean anything just yet.  Brand new camera in hand (and a backpack full of stolen wallets because Jen, like the rest of us, does whatever her demon suggests 99% of the time) we drove to the mountain.

Side note:  Rapid city has a LOT of Wendy's and Arby's for its size.  That isn't actually important, we just thought it was weird and funny.  (I love Wendy's)

[looong drink]
Yeah... we drove to the mountain.  That's where the disturbance was, and if we have one united purpose, it is to record weird disturbances and acquire fame.

There were cop cars blockading the road.  The meteor was dangerous, they said.
"Don't worry, we're meteorologists"
It was a little better than that, but we literally said that!  We rolled well and social skills won the day, the cop let us past.
hehe, that cop... he comes up again.

We came to a vast glowing crat-
Shit, actually, first we went offroad.  In the van.  To avoid detection, which is fair, but still... in a van.  Sean insisted, but he does have a history of driving across terrain that should not be driveable.
Brian is the one who has to fix the van, just saiyan :P  (not actually complaining, in or out of character, Brian is a total mooch who holds a camera)

So we came across a fence around the actual base of the monument.  Our driver was possessed by PRIDE...  he revved the engine and slowly shoved the fence over.  I like to imagine that Brian's scrap teeth and bumpers around the van helped, though I don't think we actually used them.

NOW we approached the crater.  It glowed an unnatural, deeply unsettling green...  Not like Jen.  No.  This was...  A silhouette emerged from ground zero as we slowly drove around.  One of us (Ronnie Jeremy) got a particularly good look at it... and collapsed, fingers in ears, saying all these squares make a circle "no no no no".  Green... everywhere.  I captured it all on tape, but I could tell...  The figure would only appear to fellow ^EnLiGhTeNeD.

More.  Fucking.  Werewolves.

And also, a couple of FBI drove up in front of our van, since we failed our stealth roll.  They pointed guns at us and demanded we stop - right as the crater EXPLODED IN A PULSE OF GREEN.  Whatever it was, the agents felt it, freaking the fuck out.

"We are time agents from the future"
"Come with us if you want to live"
"Hurry, those are time dogs"
"Oh no that guy's the time police, hurry"

Catchphrase of this campaign is "We could not be retarded"

It fucking worked, because they didn't know WTF, they got in the van and Sean slammed the gas.

OH OH I ALMOST FORGOT, THIS SHIT STARTED PLAYING (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFl1q0IYTA)

So yeah I made an occult roll "yeah it's an angel" "SHITBALLS guys it's a FUCKING ANGEL"

When I say Sean slammed the gas... I should clarify.  The balls on this guy.  He got a bit of distance, U-turned the van, and accelerated straight at the angel, who was now hovering all mighty-like over the fucking werewolves.

Yeah, we tried to run over a couple wereweolves and an angel.  That...  Didn't turn out so well.  As the FBI agents did excellent kerbin impressions, and Brian dove the fuck out of the way because his whole thing is knowing better, the angel passed straight the van and... Hrm.  How to explain this.

The angel...  kinda grabbed Sean's demon (a whirlwind made of teeth) as we passed.  Our demons are *supposed* to be overlayed on top of us...  Sean's became displaced by a couple feet.

Blood started trickling out Sean's nose and ears (3 AGGRAVATED damage).

Fortuitously, Brian rolled to the side of the van early enough that the angel lunged and missed.  Which triggered a curse Jen had laid on it...  The ANGEL TRIPPED.  It fell... through the ground.  It emerged a few seconds later, trumpets still blaring, pissed as all fuck.

So we're being chased by ANOTHER pack of werewolves, we have two FBI agents screaming in the van, and oh yeah there's an ANGEL floating after us.
I... said things got particularly crazy this session.  Well... here's where that happens.

First the werewolves transformed into a "garu" form or some shit, which is apparently a sanity-shocking event.  The FBI agents went from screaming to gibbering and convulsing.  Ronnie saw them as more angels and went back to cowering.  Brian looked past the world and saw the glow, Jen just didn't give a shit.  In fact, she started stripping the FBI agents of their badges and also their clothes.

Then angel, shimmering with holy aura...  possessed a werewolf.
Oh yeah, our demons had be screaming ever since we saw the angel.  Even Brian's sloth demon.
And now we started screaming OOC, or at least I did.
Reminder:  Werewolves in World of Darkness are incredibly powerful at a base level.  And I have intentionally avoided learning most of what they CAN do.
As for angels?  COMPLETE UNKNOWN to me.

So then... the werewolf sprouted... wings.
And
*sigh*
The divine werewolf began "charging its lazor".

A few seconds later, it began breathing divine lightning at our van.

I'm honestly not sure how we were *supposed* to win.  Jen's bleach-dart missed, and Brian was still in no shape to fire his mundane gun.  Sean was doing a remarkable job of SERPENTINE, SERPENTINE, but it was only a matter of time (and the lightning was blasting actual craters of glass into the dirt road).

So Brian "prayed"...  Putting a song on the surround sound, max volume, desperate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajq_zyFhX8
The rest don't care about Captain Murphy, but Brian is a true believer :P
And sure enough, uh...  Purple goo started flowing from the speakers.  Which was... something?  Another blast of Holy Lightning, and Brian's overclocked brain produced an idea:

"Maybe the goo will do something to it!  Syringe it!"  Brian dipped his bullets in the goo, but turns out shooting is a physical skill :P
Jen, on the other hand, wasn't a cripple (and her demon was eagerly helping).  As the FLYING FUCKING ANGEL WEREWOLF charged up for a fourth shot, she hit it with a syringe full of concentrated heresy.  Which...  IIRC...  Began multiplying over the surface of the wolf, weighing it down in a disgusting purple mass.

And... that's mostly it.  We spent a while figuring out the chase rules again, but basically we skidded down the dirt path away from the remaining weres.  Somehow still alive, having faced down a fuckmothering angel.

It may seem like a shit deal...  Particularly since the angel will only show up on the video to other possessed...
But the floating wolf shooting lasers?
Aw yeah, Youtube gold.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 01, 2016, 09:39:55 pm

Oh shit I forgot about that cop, I said he came up again.  As we fled the scene, Sean skidded the car up to the cop.  Leaned out of the van, bug-eyed, and screamed "AYY LAMAOS".  Then drove off.

As we screeched off into the night, we heard the poor cop on the radio, probably losing his job.  IDK.  And Brian doesn't care, he has 4 humanity!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Twinwolf on December 01, 2016, 10:21:24 pm

Might be a relevant place to drop this quote

Quote from: aristabulus on December 01, 2016, 06:14:43 am

*fweeee-thunk*  Message for you, sir! /python

Quote from: aristabulus on December 01, 2016, 06:12:48 am

Neverwinter Nights 1 Complete is free on GOG's Winter Sale (https://www.gog.com/) thinger, offer expires in ~47 hours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 02, 2016, 08:31:02 pm

So the Pathfinder party, which consists of a level 8 gnome Kineticist, a level 8 halfling Rogue, a level 9 dwarf Cleric and a level 9 human Samurai walk into a bar reach the underground city of Hadramkath.

They find the entrance in a ravine that's exposed an underground tunnel due to an earthquake a few decades ago. Climbing down, they reach the tunnel and discover a trap. I describe it as a ring of magical runes inscribed in a full circle across the floor, walls and ceiling, with a golden lantern studded with gemstones and crystal panes attached to the top of the tunnel, inside of which is a ribbon of bright light that burns with a magnesium bright flare. They even find the message scrawled onto the wall informing them that someone created this trap to keep the creatures inside, and warning them not to follow but to seal the entrance. Of course, being the greedy bastards they are, they destroy the trap and take the lantern as loot, which causes them all to take 6d6 positive energy healing as the light fades from the lantern.

They enter the tunnel, spot the pit trap near the bridge but bypass it, missing the loot at the bottom (it's just a climbing kit though). They reach the bridge and find the first puzzle trap, this one an easy introductory version of a 3x3 Lights Out puzzle. I'm particularly proud of this as I've got a touch screen tablet set up to actually run the puzzle real time as they press the buttons. They solve it without issue and cross the bridge, avoiding the fire.

Then they reach the boneyard. They fight the three ghosts at the boneheaps, and the Samurai takes 1 Str and 1 Con damage. The Rogue takes 1 Str and 2 Con drain instead when he fails his Fort save. Still, they manage to clean the clock of the ghosts, but the Cleric makes a high enough Knowledge: Religion check to know that ghosts manifest again between hours to days later. If they retreat and come back, there's good odds the ghosts will be back.

They circle around the boneheaps without searching them for treasure, advancing on the main entrance. They reach the barbican at 1c and the skeletal lord archer rings the alarm bell in the tower, rousing his companions. The kobold skeleton archers at 3a start shooting the samurai, and the skeletal lord in the tower and on the cliff at 3b start firing poisoned crystalline arrows. The party has just walked into a shooting gallery and they're wearing big bullseyes.

The samurai takes cover and uses total defence after being knocked down to a quarter of his hit points in one round of combat. The cleric runs up and heals him back above half, and the rogue hides and hopes they will survive with their extremely low Con score. The kineticist starts blasting, going nova in an attempt to knock down one of the skeleton lords. He lucks out on a critical hit, punching the enemy blow half health.

After another healing spell the next round, the samurai feels confident enough to pull a reach weapon and go for the archers on the north cliff. He sets off a symbol of pain trap but saves without trouble. The cleric summons spiritual weapons to harass the kobolds and follows the samurai, while the rogue goes for the barbican and the skeleton lord at the top. The kineticist starts getting pincushioned for his trouble and decides to head into the barbican to take cover.

The rogue gets an arrow in the ass and takes an additional 1 Str drain from failing shadow essence poison. The amusing thing is that he fails by one point, which is revealed when the samurai succeeds his saving throw by getting 1 point higher. If the rogue hadn't taken the Con drain from the ghost, he'd have resisted the poison. Rogue and kineticist get inside and find a spiral staircase going up the tower, and start climbing. Then the skeleton lord at the top cuts the rope holding the giant bronze bell.

The bell rolls an attack against everyone on the stairs. It crits the roll on the rogue. The rogue is shitting themselves because this is probably game over for their character given how poorly they've rolled for hp. Luckily they have a reroll token, something I give out to each player at the end of a successful adventure. This lets a player reroll one d20, either their roll or mine, before the roll is resolved. I reroll, get a 5 on the die, and with the rogue's trapsense bonus to AC it's enough to dodge the hit. The kineticist isn't half as lucky, taking 6d6 damage and rolling a reflex save as their stairs are smashed out from underneath them. He manages to nail the reflex save, so he doesn't add falling damage.

They reach the top and the kineticist starts going full nova on the skeleton lord, doing his desperate best to take him out. He knocks him down to half hp before the return fire knocks him below his nonlethal damage threshold, sending him to the ground unconscious from his accumulated burn.

The samurai is way too far away to reach them, busy mopping up the kobolds. The cleric however has line of effect, and redirects his two active spiritual weapons onto the skeleton lord. A critical hit at x3 multiplier with a max roll for damage finishes off combat for the session.

I gotta say it was a damned good session overall. The group succeeded by the slimmest of margins, as is to be expected when they simply charge straight in without strategy. Hopefully they'll be more cautious for the future as they've learned this won't be a pushover. I'm pretty sure they're planning to fall back to camp and lick their wounds for a day or two.

Unfortunately for them, they made one fatal error. At the very entrance to the mine the golden lantern was actually a trap of Undeath Ward. They didn't attempt to identify the trap, and thus they've actually disabled something they could have walked straight through without trouble. Instead, now it's gone they can expect undead to come out at night and harass them at their camp. No rest for the wicked greedy!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 06, 2016, 01:55:08 pm

Pathfinder campaign's over. We had to kill an immortal by finding his heart, which was removed in the ritual for him to become immortal, and forcibly return it to his body.

Luckily, I took grappling feats, so we didn't have to beat him into unconsciousness before we fist-fucked his chest-cavity.

Next up is another player being DM. Gestalt, really high point-buy, and the firearm rules are 'Guns Everywhere'. This means that guns are simple weapons, cost only 10% as much as normal, and any class or archetype that normally gets the Gunsmithing feat instead gets the Firearm Training feature, gaining Dex to Damage with the gun of their choice. This campaign will mostly be testing for a cowboy style campaign in the future.

Anyone have experience in a gun-filled campaign, or any ideas of character types? My current idea is one I've been wanting to do for a while, with a Commando style character. Uses Alchemist Bombs, guns, and Sneak Attacks. Shame Bombs are limited to Alchemists, one Wizard Archetype, and an underwhelming Rogue Talent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 06, 2016, 11:27:47 pm

I see so many people making Dragon Ball Z games... But goodness the rules for those games are always sooo very bad...

I feel like the only way there is ever going to be halfway decent mechanics for those games is if "I" the greatest person in the world... Make them myself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulufaic on December 07, 2016, 12:25:58 am

Quote from: Neonivek on December 06, 2016, 11:27:47 pm

I see so many people making Dragon Ball Z games... But goodness the rules for those games are always sooo very bad...

I feel like the only way there is ever going to be halfway decent mechanics for those games is if "I" the greatest person in the world... Make them myself.

Now I kinda want a competition where everyone makes their own ruleset/mechanics to see whose is best.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on December 07, 2016, 12:45:03 am

Quote from: Cthulufaic on December 07, 2016, 12:25:58 am

Quote from: Neonivek on December 06, 2016, 11:27:47 pm

I see so many people making Dragon Ball Z games... But goodness the rules for those games are always sooo very bad...

I feel like the only way there is ever going to be halfway decent mechanics for those games is if "I" the greatest person in the world... Make them myself.

Now I kinda want a competition where everyone makes their own ruleset/mechanics to see whose is best.

Tried for years. Lost cause.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 07, 2016, 12:48:46 am

A DBZ rpg would only be accurate if it takes multiple game sessions to get charged up for battle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2016, 01:42:13 am

The important part to me is not to be so strong mechanically and to be more... thematic.

So for example instead of Ki being measured like mana... What if fighters only had a max of say... 10 ki... and start battles with 5... each turn adds 1 automatically.

Something along those lines.

As well combat would be based more on creating opportunities rather then wasting away HP...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 07, 2016, 01:46:06 am

What if they could swing their swords in a 6-second tai-chi set to regain a ki.
Oh hello Tome of Battle :P

Honestly?  It was kinda cool.
BECAUSE it made fighters like spellcasters.  Spellcasters weren't just better in-universe...  they were better mechanically.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2016, 01:50:40 am

Yes charging is a thing. I don't know if it would be a move or not.

Another aspect is I want to remove transformations as race specific... and instead have them as sort of techniques.

You can certainly recreate Super Saiyan.

---

Another was that move creation HAD to be a thing... but to balance it I had to think of it in terms of what is it that goes into a move?

What makes a Kamehameha unique outside just being a blaster move?... Well it is a continuous attack (slightly but not extremely homing)... So What if it cost 2-ki to pull off... and when it lands you can pump ki into it until the enemy escapes or you chose not to, increasing its damage.

Meaning that continuous attacks are Ki-conserving attacks.

---

The bigger issue is Destructo Disk... I am not sure what to do with it right now

Either it is "Unblockable" meaning that enemies have to dodge it (but that would... have issues with all moves being undodgable or unblockable to try to hit defenses)

The other is that successful Destructo Disk attacks might be a lot more injurious.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 07, 2016, 01:57:45 am

I think it was a standard action "flourish" to recharge a maneuver, but it was different between swordsage and warblade I think.  Swordsages could hold a lot of maneuvers.

To clarify, when I say that spellcasters were "better" mechanically in 3.5e, I mean they were more fun to play.  OBVIOUSLY they were more powerful, but there was also a lot more mecahical depth available - Which is why the Tome of Battle, which introduced "martial" spellcasters, fixed things...  And basically predicted 4e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 07, 2016, 03:36:48 am

I think something to keep in mind is that DBZ is a lot like if a D&D game reached its finale after doing levels 1-15 (which would be Dragon Ball), only to just keep on going toward 20 and beyond, until at the end they're making up post-level 30 progressions and shit. It'd be in keeping with what I know of high-level D&D combat, even. So if you're going for the DBZ feel you either want to start high-level in a system, or alternatively adapt a system that's already meant to be high-powered (something like Exalted, I guess).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 07, 2016, 04:16:09 am

Eh, aside from focus on fighting being the main point of the series, I don't see why you'd want to create a DBZ themed tabletop game. I suppose if Bandai gets bored they could make one to try milking yet one more dollar from the IP, but honestly it's just abusing the deceased equine at this point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2016, 05:22:28 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on December 07, 2016, 03:36:48 am

I think something to keep in mind is that DBZ is a lot like if a D&D game reached its finale after doing levels 1-15 (which would be Dragon Ball), only to just keep on going toward 20 and beyond, until at the end they're making up post-level 30 progressions and shit. It'd be in keeping with what I know of high-level D&D combat, even. So if you're going for the DBZ feel you either want to start high-level in a system, or alternatively adapt a system that's already meant to be high-powered (something like Exalted, I guess).

Everyone is super powered in DBZ already and the super ability of many of the powers do not affect the characters.

For example the Kamehameha is technically a AoE... but nothing but a direct hit is REALLY going to do much to any of the fighters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: uber pye on December 07, 2016, 02:09:12 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on December 07, 2016, 03:36:48 am

I think something to keep in mind is that DBZ is a lot like if a D&D game reached its finale after doing levels 1-15 (which would be Dragon Ball), only to just keep on going toward 20 and beyond, until at the end they're making up post-level 30 progressions and shit. It'd be in keeping with what I know of high-level D&D combat, even. So if you're going for the DBZ feel you either want to start high-level in a system, or alternatively adapt a system that's already meant to be high-powered (something like Exalted, I guess).

for a DBZ game you probably want to use Exalted, and if you have Shards of The Exalted Dream, The Burn Legend rules for pure kung fu action.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2016, 03:41:44 pm

Quote from: uber pye on December 07, 2016, 02:09:12 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on December 07, 2016, 03:36:48 am

I think something to keep in mind is that DBZ is a lot like if a D&D game reached its finale after doing levels 1-15 (which would be Dragon Ball), only to just keep on going toward 20 and beyond, until at the end they're making up post-level 30 progressions and shit. It'd be in keeping with what I know of high-level D&D combat, even. So if you're going for the DBZ feel you either want to start high-level in a system, or alternatively adapt a system that's already meant to be high-powered (something like Exalted, I guess).

for a DBZ game you probably want to use Exalted, and if you have Shards of The Exalted Dream, The Burn Legend rules for pure kung fu action.

No seriously that is a huge bad idea...

Exalted is extremely arbitrary.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on December 08, 2016, 02:39:16 am

I'm looking for players for an Uz game set in Glorantha. (https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/63493/glorantha-uz-a-place-of-greater-darkness) No RuneQuest or Glorantha experienced required, but I am kinda struggling to find enough players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 08, 2016, 03:06:28 am

Quote from: Neonivek on December 07, 2016, 03:41:44 pm

Exalted is extremely arbitrary.

Having never watched DBZ, isn't that the point of DBZ and every other long running show? That things eventually break down and become extremely arbitrary?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on December 08, 2016, 09:38:31 am

Extremely arbitrary. Extremely arbitrary. As in "I punch you into a duck." As in "I punch you into the form of a duck." Or "I hide underneath your teacup."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 08, 2016, 11:26:25 am

Quote from: FallacyofUrist on December 08, 2016, 09:38:31 am

Extremely arbitrary. Extremely arbitrary. As in "I punch you into a duck." As in "I punch you into the form of a duck." Or "I hide underneath your teacup."

Well Buu could laser people into chocolate, so there's that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: uber pye on December 08, 2016, 04:35:00 pm

Quote from: FallacyofUrist on December 08, 2016, 09:38:31 am

Extremely arbitrary. Extremely arbitrary. As in "I punch you into a duck." As in "I punch you into the form of a duck." Or "I hide underneath your teacup."

that problem is mostly in sidereal martial arts(which most smart gms ban).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 10, 2016, 11:09:48 pm

New campaign. Was warned it was a known meat-grinder, though the first session had little combat. Mostly just roleplay, but we fought a pack of rabid dogs at one point. I accidentally singled myself out by tossing grenades at them.

Anyways, some time later we went to rest for the night. We were in our home city by the way. We haven't even left the place, nor made any negative impressions on the townsfolk. A nice, secure inn in the middle of the city. We all got coup-de-graced in our sleep.

I am 100% serious when I say it's an impossible encounter. Assassins sneak into our rooms, and gut us in our sleep. Not all of us are outsiders; one of the starting options is to be a native of the place, and are directed to sleep in our own homes rather than the inn. Meaning that one person catching an assassin cannot warn others, unless they are both in the inn. And even then, you get a negative to that because of Perception penalties due to sleep and walls.

The DC to detect the assassins is 25. And you take a -10 penalty on Perception checks when unconscious. And we're level one. And it's only going to get worse from here. Fuck this campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 10, 2016, 11:34:10 pm

Is this a published adventure?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 10, 2016, 11:40:56 pm

Yea, a Paizo-Published Adventure Path for Pathfinder.

There've been a few curveballs in Paizo adventures at times, but this is the worst I've seen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on December 10, 2016, 11:57:00 pm

Sounds like you should either be sleeping in shifts, or take a race that only meditates rather than sleeps.

Of course you shouldn't need to do that sort of thing in a friendly city at all, but still...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 11, 2016, 12:07:44 am

Quote from: Sirus on December 10, 2016, 11:57:00 pm

Sounds like you should either be sleeping in shifts, or take a race that only meditates rather than sleeps.

Of course you shouldn't need to do that sort of thing in a friendly city at all, but still...

Sleeping in shifts is normal in hostile territory, but we had our own separate rooms in the inn. Some of us actually lived in the town, so we had our own houses to sleep in, meaning we more or less were alone with our attackers during this encounter.

To my knowledge, the "Elves only meditate, not sleep" thing isn't in Pathfinder. It was dropped in the conversion from 3.5, but you could play as a Wyrwood (construct) or a Ghoran (plant). Not likely to get those OK'd by your DM though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 11, 2016, 12:11:05 am

I'm going to run a message-based Pathfinder campaign with some IRL friends (pen-and-paper would be difficult and I don't have computer access regularly enough for Roll20 or the like) soon. It's low-level; the basic premise is the PCs all meet in a local hamlet which is regularly set upon by kobolds and the local militia leader asks them to go murder them, as you do. PCs track down the kobold's hideout and begin murdering but once they reach the big powerful chieftain, they (hopefully) listen to his story:

Everything the militia captain told them is BS. The kobolds worship/are descended from a local metallic dragon and are relatively chill dudes, but the militia captain is extremely racist against them. He framed (and has been doing so for quite some time) the kobolds for robbing the town and killing livestock at night, and before the PCs came, orchestrated a mass kobold hunt for miles around; nobody in town had real reason to disbelieve him, after all.  I really like this idea and I think I can get a few sessions out of it. Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 11, 2016, 12:37:45 am

'The real monster is humanity' stories are a bit overrated in my opinion. We've got a world where demons literally spawn from hell to suck your soul out for eternal torment. Detecting evil is a simple first level spell away. Hell, if your group has a Paladin, you're gonna find the NPC backstory you've just set up can be destroyed from the outset by their SLA.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 11, 2016, 12:51:05 am

SLA?

I hear you, but I'm really only doing it because I think it's a cruel twist. Any meaning deeper than "haha, you got tricked into murdering innocents" is beyond me. :P Plus I don't think they're going to want to cast it on the militia leader and I planned to get them straight into kobold murdering anyway, without a lot of time for deliberation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 11, 2016, 12:57:26 am

Spell-Like Abilities. Like Spells, but not.

Though depending on your system of choice, the power required to trigger a response on Detect X spells will vary.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on December 11, 2016, 01:04:33 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on December 11, 2016, 12:51:05 am

SLA?

I hear you, but I'm really only doing it because I think it's a cruel twist. Any meaning deeper than "haha, you got tricked into murdering innocents" is beyond me. :P Plus I don't think they're going to want to cast it on the militia leader and I planned to get them straight into kobold murdering anyway, without a lot of time for deliberation.

I had a similar setup, but it was definitely for a reason; I wanted to break "race" stereotypes real quick-like and delve into deeper topics beyond "goblins are evil and aasimar are good" for Fun reasons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on December 11, 2016, 08:18:42 pm

Players think a DM is boring so he sends them on an interesting adventure (http://imgur.com/OyGYAiI)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Twinwolf on December 11, 2016, 08:35:39 pm

I've seen that
That must have been so much fun for the DM

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 11, 2016, 08:49:09 pm

Good concept, much better way to trick the players into committing evil. Hadn't read that one before, but kudos to the DM if it's actually a true story.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 11, 2016, 10:15:34 pm

;~;

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on December 12, 2016, 11:58:13 am

Just looking to poll interest a bit, but I'm currently creating a Pathfinder level 3-10/12 campaign for some real life friends.  The plan is to play it on roll 20 with mostly text gameplay, though I can guarantee me and one other person will be using voice chat for out of character chatter.  I currently have one dedicated player and two others who have shown some interest but I'd like it if the party was more around a 5 person size so I plan on trying to get some new people in here for the fun times.

The story-line will start off with the players becoming trapped in an ancient kingdom that sealed itself off with powerful magics, leaving the valley it was situated in to fade away into myth for the people of the outside world.  The end goal would be for the player-party to find a way to escape from the ancient kingdom but I am not going to rail-road you towards that goal, so you'd be free to explore the lost lands as you see fit.

If anyone is interested in joining or following along with the game, let me know and I'll make a thread for it with more details/story in the coming weeks.  Playtime would likely run 2-4 hours, either weekly or bi-weekly and my hopes is to have the story over and done in 10-20 sessions, so you have an idea what sort of commitment it would be.  What time of the day we play is very open to discussion as I don't work at all in the winter, and the one dedicated player I have works nights (in USA east) so he said he'll wake up/stay up for any time of the day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 12, 2016, 12:08:33 pm

Well, I'm interested, but somebody's probably going to have to help me through the sheet.  :x

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 12, 2016, 02:27:31 pm

Quote from: kilakan on December 12, 2016, 11:58:13 am

If anyone is interested in joining or following along with the game, let me know and I'll make a thread for it with more details/story in the coming weeks.  Playtime would likely run 2-4 hours, either weekly or bi-weekly and my hopes is to have the story over and done in 10-20 sessions, so you have an idea what sort of commitment it would be.  What time of the day we play is very open to discussion as I don't work at all in the winter, and the one dedicated player I have works nights (in USA east) so he said he'll wake up/stay up for any time of the day.

Sign me up! More Pathfinder can only be a good thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on December 12, 2016, 03:25:22 pm

Normally I'd agree, but I'm not so keen on making a character only for it to run 10-20 sessions. Gimme something more long-running.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 12, 2016, 03:33:54 pm

Quote from: Sirus on December 12, 2016, 03:25:22 pm

Normally I'd agree, but I'm not so keen on making a character only for it to run 10-20 sessions. Gimme something more long-running.

Dude, that could run on for half a year or longer. Besides, it's pretty rare for a game to achieve its full aim anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on December 12, 2016, 03:55:43 pm

Half a year isn't all that long with weekly/bi-weekly sessions. In any case, the fact that levels will shoot up from 3 to double-digits in that timeframe means that players probably won't have all that many opportunities to explore new abilities and spells as they earn them.

I prefer a slower-burning game, is all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on December 12, 2016, 06:10:36 pm

The general idea is to get a group together who I can count on to then be able to run a longer campaign, possibly even continue that one on for a longer time.  As for experience gain, that's actually more indicative of that I tend to make traps/enemies/encounters quite hard.  I figured I'd set a shorter time-frame goal, since the last couple times I've tried to set up a longer campaign, people have rapidly started failing to show up three to five sessions in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on December 12, 2016, 10:41:57 pm

I wanna run one of those play-by-post Pathfinder games I'm infamous for but I've gotten stuck in worldbuilding: part of me wants to do a game in the vein of Beowulf or Sigurd the Volsung where the players are Norse-ish warriors of incredible skill in fictionalized Viking Age Scandinavia and part of me wants to do a game where the players are pirates in the fictionalized Golden Age of Piracy Caribbean Sea. I've done a lot of research to create rules and restrictions to make the Viking setting more accurate but something seems more captivating about the idea of a pirate setting.

Bluntly, which one sounds more fun?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 12, 2016, 11:07:21 pm

Vikings. You've got your piracy already built in as a Viking raider, but less time spent out on the open sea means less stretches of boring. Vikings were mostly coastal raiders, or you can go Skyrim style of Nord Viking and go delving some ancient crypts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 12, 2016, 11:42:29 pm

Having tried a piracy campaign before, I can say it felt quite boring very quickly. Not as much variety to oceanic combat. Other pirates, pirate hunters, ghost ships, and the occasional kraken/amphibious water beast. Also an obscene amount of downtime between ports.

Go with the Vikings, I'd say. Just don't forget to add ninjas and samurai in there somewhere! :P
^{Seriously though, I found out that Pathfinder has Viking Ninjas/Samurai in their lore.}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on December 12, 2016, 11:49:16 pm

They also have ninja-swamp dwelling ranger pirates.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 13, 2016, 12:23:40 am

Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinjaPirateZombieRobot) Totally doable in Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 13, 2016, 12:38:46 am

Quote from: Tawa on December 12, 2016, 10:41:57 pm

I wanna run one of those play-by-post Pathfinder games I'm infamous for but I've gotten stuck in worldbuilding: part of me wants to do a game in the vein of Beowulf or Sigurd the Volsung where the players are Norse-ish warriors of incredible skill in fictionalized Viking Age Scandinavia and part of me wants to do a game where the players are pirates in the fictionalized Golden Age of Piracy Caribbean Sea. I've done a lot of research to create rules and restrictions to make the Viking setting more accurate but something seems more captivating about the idea of a pirate setting.

Bluntly, which one sounds more fun?

As someone who's run a pirate setting, pirate games are really focused around player freedom. If the players can do whatever they want, the setting is better. It's great for open ended, sandbox-esque games, and really not fun for either the player or the DM if the DM goes for a more linear experience. The players are going to want to run around, spend an undue amount of time and gold customizing their ship, and basically growing their ego as much as possible.
I can't say I've played a Viking game, but I can imagine it'd work as a linear or open ended game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on December 13, 2016, 02:11:15 am

For a pirate game, one thing you wanna curb is players making all their money just selling captured ships, since it can lead to ridiculous amounts of money coming into their possession very quickly.

Luckily, you can solve this by taking some lessons from reality. By maritime law, all ships must be registered in and fly the flag of a country. And most countries aren't going to be willing to register some ship that has neither proof of legitimacy from the manufacturer or transfer of ownership from the previous owner, so, costly as they are, merchants wouldn't be interested in a captured or stolen ship, as they wouldn't be welcome in most ports (if you happened to come across an abandoned ship or captured a pirate ship, port authorities might be grateful for you surrendering it under their custody, and might be willing to sell it to you, maybe even at a discount).

Meanwhile, pirates present a much smaller market than merchants, as there are less of them, and they will usually already have the ship(s) they need or capture or steal them themselves. If you have a particularly nice ship, someone might be willing to buy it, or they might try to obtain it by other means (though the Pirate's Code will probably stop them from outright stealing from other pirates in most cases). Otherwise someone might be willing to buy an unregistered/untransferred ship for maybe or maybe not legitimate purposes at a significant discount.

If players really want to make money capturing prize ships, they'll need to get some sort of letters of marque.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 13, 2016, 03:19:13 am

Quote from: Kadzar on December 13, 2016, 02:11:15 am

If players really want to make money capturing prize ships, they'll need to get some sort of letters of marque.

Unless, of course, they have some source of reliable, trustworthy, cheap labor. If they start capturing ships, but the DM doesn't let them sell them, they'd start building a fleet, until each character has a small armada.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on December 13, 2016, 03:45:39 am

There are so much more to the golden age of piracy setting than just piracy, though. Exploring ancient ruins in the jungle for treasure, fighting off indignified depictions of natives, colony politics and intrigue, seducing governors' daughters, insult sword fighting... The usual stuff! Basically, being a pirate just gives you a mobile base. There's no reason the campaign would have to take place at sea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 13, 2016, 04:11:03 am

I plan to give my players an adventure hook soon that involves sea travel. Obligatory kraken encounter and repair journey to small tropical island is expected.

Three words: Halfling Barbarian Cannibals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 13, 2016, 04:27:57 am

Quote from: Tawa on December 12, 2016, 10:41:57 pm

Bluntly, which one sounds more fun?

Why not both? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWKpDSSKhgo)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on December 13, 2016, 07:13:13 am

Pathfinder is a really poor system all round, for a variety of reasons.

Primarily though, it's that there's seemingly a cultural divide in terms of how "realistic" the game should be.

Ignoring the fighter / wizard problem where fighters stay foot sloggers who just hit things when wizards start farting fireballs and literally altering reality with their magical powers, there's also a divide in individual characters.

A high-level fighter can survive a fall at terminal velocity but can't use a weapon cord to retrieve his weapon as a swift action. An archer can fire ten thousand arrows each round and they can bend around allies but a similarly built crossbow user can't fire more than two because it wouldn't be "realistic". There was a thread on the Paizo forums about how it's more feasible to build a character who throws water balloons than it is to build a crossbow user and it got locked for being "non-productive".

There's a huge lack of a unified design vision and the game is beginning to become excessively cluttered with classes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 13, 2016, 07:15:21 am

No comparison of versions/games please, it's a rule that has been emplaced in order to prevent arguments and locks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 13, 2016, 11:26:19 am

From the OP:

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:29:14 pm

From the outset I want a few things clear, DO NOT engage in 'version X is better than version Y' discussion/argument, I will lock down the thread and report the parties responsible. (Even if it's me.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 13, 2016, 11:33:56 am

All other game systems pale before FATAL, anyway.

So... last NWoD session was particularly messed up...  I'm just going to post a bit from our Skype log.  I'm getting enough nightmares from Fallen London.

Quote from: Skype

[12/9/2016 8:28:33 PM] [Chad]: What'd I miss Wednesday goys
[12/9/2016 8:47:41 PM] [Sean]: Well its hard to explain
[12/9/2016 8:49:15 PM] [Sean]: Basically Chicago sucks
[12/9/2016 8:50:07 PM] [Me/Brian]: (nod)
[12/9/2016 8:50:14 PM] [Sean]: Oh wait let me just paste in my exp log summery
[12/9/2016 8:50:22 PM] [Sean]: Jen got kidnapped to a rape dungeon, but she got better. [Sean] Did terrible horrible awful shit and passed all my morality checks. Healed all my aggervated damage by eating hearts and doing demotic rituals involving making someone kill their brother and burning a living cat. Handed out cursed items to people and made more possessed.
[12/9/2016 8:50:43 PM] [Me/Brian]: Oh good that's an actual summary yeah
[12/9/2016 8:51:40 PM] [Me/Brian]: Your character ought to be our moral compass now except Sean still has 6 humanity after literally a dozen checks, some of them on 1 die
[12/9/2016 8:52:14 PM] [Me/Brian]: Brian's down to 2 but no insanity except for fear of children, which is kinda reasonable after helping turn a bunch into demons
[12/9/2016 8:55:36 PM] [Me/Brian]: But yeah Chicago sucks, particularly now that we're done with it, and also tomorrow (or tonight?) in-game Captain Murphy is going to ride in on a stellar eclipse or something.  (Brian had a dream, it was great)

Edit:  Sean's player was our DND 3.5e DM, and our Vampire DM, he has a real talent for creepy shit in-game.  So it's particularly hilarious that his character is steadfastly staying at 6 morality (7 is baseline)...  Basically his character is incredibly sorry for every horrible action, and doesn't really know why he's doing them.

Whereas Brian and Jen basically rationalized everything, rapidly becoming psychopaths.  Brian has no problem killing for the cause, he is a True Believer in Captain Murphy.  Jen has no problem killing many defenseless people for... uh, herself.
The big difference is that Brian somehow remained EERILY sane in his descent (each drop of morality has a high chance of causing derangement).  Jen is... fucking nuts.  Luck of the dice, but also ironic since Jen's player played the batshit Gangrel who ended up with like 7 personalities last session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TempAcc on December 13, 2016, 11:42:56 am

Good to see world of darkness is still world of darkness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on December 13, 2016, 11:50:36 am

Quote from: Tawa on December 12, 2016, 10:41:57 pm

I wanna run one of those play-by-post Pathfinder games I'm infamous for but I've gotten stuck in worldbuilding: part of me wants to do a game in the vein of Beowulf or Sigurd the Volsung where the players are Norse-ish warriors of incredible skill in fictionalized Viking Age Scandinavia and part of me wants to do a game where the players are pirates in the fictionalized Golden Age of Piracy Caribbean Sea. I've done a lot of research to create rules and restrictions to make the Viking setting more accurate but something seems more captivating about the idea of a pirate setting.

Bluntly, which one sounds more fun?

Both? Viking setting inherently contains raiding and piracy, so you could quite nicely make a piratical viking game.

You could maybe even fuse the two a little, fantasy up the world a bit more and have maybe a Vikingesque continent in the north and a more standard nautical continent to the south, with a large sea dotted with islands in the centre as a focal point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 13, 2016, 11:53:04 am

Vikings, except they all have eyepatches.

Best of all worlds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 13, 2016, 11:53:41 am

Quote from: TempAcc on December 13, 2016, 11:42:56 am

Good to see world of darkness is still world of darkness.

Updated.  And when he says Jen "got better", maybe I can clarify a *little*...  She convinced another captive to go for the guard's gun.  The other woman lost an arm, but Jen got the guard's shotgun, then shot her way out.  Especially once she got an SMG.

Later, Sean needed to kill someone for the demon pact, so we hired a hooker.  We got the one-armed woman.
We ended up using one of the rape-gang for the sacrifice after dragging him home and... gods... calling up like 4 of his friends to meet for an execution. 
But I'm pretty sure Jen executed the one-armed woman while we weren't looking.  For being rather upset, as you might imagine.
Yeah, NWoD.  Edge to the MAX, but self-aware (protip:  Hunters literally have powers called "edge")

Edit:  OH YEAH Jen, after shooting her way outside with some freed captives, traded those captives to get her purse back.
There were very important artifacts in the purse but still, maybe that explains why maybe the one-armed woman was just a little bit upset with Jen

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 13, 2016, 03:16:29 pm

Quote from: Tawa on December 12, 2016, 10:41:57 pm

I wanna run one of those play-by-post Pathfinder games I'm infamous for but I've gotten stuck in worldbuilding: part of me wants to do a game in the vein of Beowulf or Sigurd the Volsung where the players are Norse-ish warriors of incredible skill in fictionalized Viking Age Scandinavia and part of me wants to do a game where the players are pirates in the fictionalized Golden Age of Piracy Caribbean Sea. I've done a lot of research to create rules and restrictions to make the Viking setting more accurate but something seems more captivating about the idea of a pirate setting.

Bluntly, which one sounds more fun?

Mystery in the City of Starlight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 13, 2016, 03:20:43 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on December 13, 2016, 03:16:29 pm

Quote from: Tawa on December 12, 2016, 10:41:57 pm

I wanna run one of those play-by-post Pathfinder games I'm infamous for but I've gotten stuck in worldbuilding: part of me wants to do a game in the vein of Beowulf or Sigurd the Volsung where the players are Norse-ish warriors of incredible skill in fictionalized Viking Age Scandinavia and part of me wants to do a game where the players are pirates in the fictionalized Golden Age of Piracy Caribbean Sea. I've done a lot of research to create rules and restrictions to make the Viking setting more accurate but something seems more captivating about the idea of a pirate setting.

Bluntly, which one sounds more fun?

Mystery in the City of Starlight.

I second this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on December 13, 2016, 03:48:58 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 13, 2016, 03:20:43 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on December 13, 2016, 03:16:29 pm

Quote from: Tawa on December 12, 2016, 10:41:57 pm

I wanna run one of those play-by-post Pathfinder games I'm infamous for but I've gotten stuck in worldbuilding: part of me wants to do a game in the vein of Beowulf or Sigurd the Volsung where the players are Norse-ish warriors of incredible skill in fictionalized Viking Age Scandinavia and part of me wants to do a game where the players are pirates in the fictionalized Golden Age of Piracy Caribbean Sea. I've done a lot of research to create rules and restrictions to make the Viking setting more accurate but something seems more captivating about the idea of a pirate setting.

Bluntly, which one sounds more fun?

Mystery in the City of Starlight.

I second this.

Oh yeah

So, uh, funny story: after BHK cleared their sheet with me I didn't realize that we were ready and by the time I remembered that the game existed the thread had been dead for like a week, so I figured if people were still interested it would be bumped

But screw it, I still like the idea behind that game. I'm going to make sure everyone's still present and interested, then go from there.

Maybe chance running two things at the same time again, see if that works out. At least I'm not planning on like four at once, like I often did back in the dark ages.

---

To the various people who suggested 'why not both': I'm one of those boring history nerds who cringes when people in High Middle Ages films wear plate armor and who almost dies when people conflate two Renaissance centuries with one another. I don't think my heart could handle Captain Ják Þparrow, and I was looking at the Golden Age of Piracy specifically because of the late-1600s/early-1700s feel, rather than for the sake of raiding and robbing.

I do like the "everyone has eyepatches" idea, though, albeit in the context of an Odin-worshipping priesthood rather than pirates.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 13, 2016, 03:50:38 pm

Pirate game would be fun. I want to play a huge buff orc sailing the high seas <3

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on December 13, 2016, 04:09:49 pm

I just played through Pirates of the Sword Coast module for neverwinter. I am also in the mood. Yohoho and a bottle of rum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on December 13, 2016, 05:43:58 pm

I'd be up for a pirate or a viking game. Either or.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 06:55:44 pm

Viking Game! You get all the pirate stuff, but also easier avenue for different stuff. Like some lite politics with our Town, and summer cow raiding, for more cows.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on December 13, 2016, 07:03:01 pm

Town? True vikings have no towns, only farms, holds, and steads! :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on December 13, 2016, 07:39:55 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 06:55:44 pm

Viking Game! You get all the pirate stuff, but also easier avenue for different stuff. Like some lite politics with our Town, and summer cow raiding, for more cows.

Could we sacrifice those cows to our gods?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 10:32:19 pm

Quote from: Sirus on December 13, 2016, 07:39:55 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 06:55:44 pm

Viking Game! You get all the pirate stuff, but also easier avenue for different stuff. Like some lite politics with our Town, and summer cow raiding, for more cows.

Could we sacrifice those cows to our gods?

YES

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 13, 2016, 10:42:12 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 10:32:19 pm

Quote from: Sirus on December 13, 2016, 07:39:55 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 06:55:44 pm

Viking Game! You get all the pirate stuff, but also easier avenue for different stuff. Like some lite politics with our Town, and summer cow raiding, for more cows.

Could we sacrifice those cows to our gods?

YES

While wearing eyepatches?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 13, 2016, 10:47:48 pm

In secret Ninja enclaves?
^{I still can't get over that Paizo included viking ninjas in their lore. Renaming them Frozen Shadows doesn't justify it if they still use katanas and other weapons that they shouldn't even know exist.}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 11:00:56 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on December 13, 2016, 10:47:48 pm

In secret Ninja enclaves?
^{I still can't get over that Paizo included viking ninjas in their lore. Renaming them Frozen Shadows doesn't justify it if they still use katanas and other weapons that they shouldn't even know exist.}

Fun Fact! Vikings, did the folding steel technique that the Japan did. They had similarly shitty iron deposits, and had to do the folding technique to gain a reasonable amount of strength.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 13, 2016, 11:51:12 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 11:00:56 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on December 13, 2016, 10:47:48 pm

In secret Ninja enclaves?
^{I still can't get over that Paizo included viking ninjas in their lore. Renaming them Frozen Shadows doesn't justify it if they still use katanas and other weapons that they shouldn't even know exist.}

Fun Fact! Vikings, did the folding steel technique that the Japan did. They had similarly shitty iron deposits, and had to do the folding technique to gain a reasonable amount of strength.

is real life an anime
is there a god and is he a weeaboo

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on December 14, 2016, 02:06:32 am

Fun fact: from the perspective of the real people outside our simulated reality, we have massive eyes and generally fucked up proportions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 14, 2016, 08:14:40 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 13, 2016, 11:00:56 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on December 13, 2016, 10:47:48 pm

In secret Ninja enclaves?
^{I still can't get over that Paizo included viking ninjas in their lore. Renaming them Frozen Shadows doesn't justify it if they still use katanas and other weapons that they shouldn't even know exist.}

Fun Fact! Vikings, did the folding steel technique that the Japan did. They had similarly shitty iron deposits, and had to do the folding technique to gain a reasonable amount of strength.

Japanese iron deposits are not shit, and neither are those of Viking lands, the folding technique further aligns the atomic lattice of the iron, trapping a greater amount of carbon and increasing its strength.  The reason the Japanese used it is that smiths were only allowed a small allotment of iron from the deposits (which are among the highest purity on Earth) so they couldn't afford to waste any on failed blades.  The Vikings used it because a Viking broadsword that had  high carbon content was massively more durable than the lower-grade steel used by those they raided and conquered.  This fucking lie perpetuated by uninformed internet trolls need to die in a goddamn fire.

Now take your steel discussion out of my D&D thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on December 15, 2016, 02:34:01 am

If you're going for lethal combat in a viking game then I really recommend Mythras or something similar. There's also the Mythic Britain setting for it that you could use.

Personally I'd prefer being privateers since you can mix in conquering natives, exploring fallen temples etc etc.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 14, 2016, 08:14:40 am

Japanese iron deposits are not shit, and neither are those of Viking lands, the folding technique further aligns the atomic lattice of the iron, trapping a greater amount of carbon and increasing its strength.  The reason the Japanese used it is that smiths were only allowed a small allotment of iron from the deposits (which are among the highest purity on Earth) so they couldn't afford to waste any on failed blades.  The Vikings used it because a Viking broadsword that had  high carbon content was massively more durable than the lower-grade steel used by those they raided and conquered.  This fucking lie perpetuated by uninformed internet trolls need to die in a goddamn fire.

Now take your steel discussion out of my D&D thread.

This really is historical revisionism. Japanese used ironsand to make their steel and that has a huge amount of impurities because it's sand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 15, 2016, 02:56:06 am

Yeah Japan both had very little iron... and the iron they had was typically of low quality.

The folding technique was absolutely necessary to turn that low quality iron and turn it into high quality steel.

Later on the Europeans would invent a way that would completely outdate any need to use the folding technique and create high-grade steel at a uniform level at higher grades then even the folding technique... Yet this process would come at the very end of the medieval period.

---

Honestly the more interesting part about Japan and its lack of metal isn't really the Folding technique or Katanas... but rather how armor evolved.

For example they would sometimes forgo shields and instead use smaller weapons for deflection (Something that goes FREEKISHLY unheard of in fiction).

Helmets often had metal bits instead of being completely armored.

And their armor was often thick layers of cloth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 15, 2016, 03:22:40 am

Heh, should know better than to make broad statements about metallurgy and smithing on the DF forums, Null.

Getting back to the real topic, what sort of fun loot ideas do you think would be interesting to place in an ancient necropolis of lizardfolk and kobolds?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 15, 2016, 03:32:33 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 15, 2016, 03:22:40 am

Heh, should know better than to make broad statements about metallurgy and smithing on the DF forums, Null.

Getting back to the real topic, what sort of fun loot ideas do you think would be interesting to place in an ancient necropolis of lizardfolk and kobolds?

Give them a culture, make the players feel a sense of loss that the Lizardfolk and kobolds lost something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 15, 2016, 06:06:29 am

Trouble is, I've already set up a bunch of undead kobolds and lizardfolk guarding the necropolis. Story so far is that lizardfolk kept the kobolds as slaves. Mainly went with this since we have a gnome in the group, and that means he gets to add his racial bonus against reptilian subtype creatures.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 15, 2016, 06:20:28 am

Quote from: Neonivek on December 15, 2016, 03:32:33 am

Give them a culture, make the players feel a sense of loss that the Lizardfolk and kobolds lost something.

An inscribed stele that lizardfolk used to gather around, listening to it recount a thousand and one ancient stories of their people in a time before time? The drum of the lizardfolk shaman, still in perfect shape, audible for dozens of miles around as it sends immediately comprehensible messages to those attuned in understanding them? The sword of an ancient human explorer, unenchanted and unadorned, but sung into legend by the beliefs and hopes of the lizardfolk believing in its mystical properties? An ornate, but amazingly light boat of gold fashioned for the chief to undertake his final journey in when he grows old and weary of ruling? If they figure it out, you might even have the chief thank them all ghost-like and relate to them the secrets of the necropolis (as told to him by his father, and to him by his father, and to his father, and [27 more iterations ensue]) if they do actually manage to lay him to rest in it all ghost-like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 15, 2016, 06:45:07 am

Lizardfolk hunted and ate kobolds to extinction?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on December 15, 2016, 07:08:21 am

An intricate, golden egg, detailing the creation of the world or the rise of hero-king.

A beautiful, silvern egg, lying in the centre of a king-sized tomb, which opens up to reveal the undead skeleton of an infant lizardman, still dressed in princely regalia and jewelry.

An unhatched, petrified dragon egg on the altar of a great temple room.

A armour made out of lizardman scales, as strong and protective as metal.

A ceremonial plate/bowl that when eating you enemies' heart from it you gain some of their power.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 15, 2016, 08:22:55 am

Quote from: Neonivek on December 15, 2016, 02:56:06 am

Yeah Japan both had very little iron... and the iron they had was typically of low quality.

The folding technique was absolutely necessary to turn that low quality iron and turn it into high quality steel.

Later on the Europeans would invent a way that would completely outdate any need to use the folding technique and create high-grade steel at a uniform level at higher grades then even the folding technique... Yet this process would come at the very end of the medieval period.

---

Honestly the more interesting part about Japan and its lack of metal isn't really the Folding technique or Katanas... but rather how armor evolved.

For example they would sometimes forgo shields and instead use smaller weapons for deflection (Something that goes FREEKISHLY unheard of in fiction).

Helmets often had metal bits instead of being completely armored.

And their armor was often thick layers of cloth.

From Shub-Nullgurath:  This really is historical revisionism. Japanese used ironsand to make their steel and that has a huge amount of impurities because it's sand.

Your knowledge of metal deposits must not be very complete, the iron sands have exceptionally high purity.

1 ) I told people to get this steel discussion out of my thread, then you immediately post something flatly fallacious and that displays no actual knowledge of Japanese historical smithing.

2 ) That statement is flatly fallacious and shows no actual knowledge of Japanese historical smithing, a subject that I actually do know more than a little about as I have and do study the subject.  Also, you'll forgive me if I take the word of my wife, who is a geologist, chemist, geochemist, and is currently earning a PhD in soil science over internet noise based on false data.  The iron sands of Japan are one of the best deposits of iron on the entire planet.  End of line.

Now get this uninformed discussion out of my thread.  LAST WARNING.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 15, 2016, 08:54:29 am

One thing I don't quite like about Oriental Adventures in Japan as for as dungeons and dragons is concerned is they super DUPER inflate the price of metal, and often horses, to ridiculous degrees.

To the point where you can have a chest filled with gold and still not be able to afford a Katana and a horse.

By the by in Dungeons and dragons terms if you fill an entire chest with gold coins... Typically you would put about 8000 coins inside.

Now I know gold is worth FAR less money in dungeons and dragons then it does in real life (Then again dungeons and dragons is FAR more gold rich then our world is)... But goodness...

And don't get me wrong horses are expensive... But goodness... I shouldn't think it is cheaper to just boat to fantasy China to get some horses.

Which come to think of it... Quite a few Fantasy Japan settings don't have a China... Which is a lot like having a Fantasy Texas without the USA. Then the ones that do, often don't include how much of a monolithic presence China was for basically all of Asia... That peace was only maintained because China just didn't FEEL like conquering you that day (and peace was VERY Tenuous... China didn't really want to go to war, but it could be very easy to attract their ire)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 15, 2016, 09:29:18 am

I have updated the first post with a new addendum, please respect it and the other rules when posting, on my part I will try to invoke this newest rule only when it appears that an argument is brewing.

If you feel that I am abusing any of the rules, tell me immediately so that I can avoid turning into a tyrannical douche.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 15, 2016, 09:29:30 am

found the chinaman

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 15, 2016, 09:59:01 am

Can we please just drop it? Take it to PMs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on December 15, 2016, 11:12:32 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 15, 2016, 06:06:29 am

Trouble is, I've already set up a bunch of undead kobolds and lizardfolk guarding the necropolis. Story so far is that lizardfolk kept the kobolds as slaves. Mainly went with this since we have a gnome in the group, and that means he gets to add his racial bonus against reptilian subtype creatures.

One thing you could do, is have some of the regular corpses enchanted with a permanent speak with dead spell.  Turn the entire necropolis into an unliving repository of ancient knowledge, spoken purely in lizardspeak/draconic so the chances of the party getting any more than 'hissssss HIIIIISSSS' out of any questions they ask is minimal!  Heck, make hissing sounds anytime any of the party askes a question at all, whether they want it or not heheh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on December 17, 2016, 04:47:23 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 15, 2016, 08:22:55 am

Your knowledge of metal deposits must not be very complete, the iron sands have exceptionally high purity.

1 ) I told people to get this steel discussion out of my thread, then you immediately post something flatly fallacious and that displays no actual knowledge of Japanese historical smithing.

2 ) That statement is flatly fallacious and shows no actual knowledge of Japanese historical smithing, a subject that I actually do know more than a little about as I have and do study the subject.  Also, you'll forgive me if I take the word of my wife, who is a geologist, chemist, geochemist, and is currently earning a PhD in soil science over internet noise based on false data.  The iron sands of Japan are one of the best deposits of iron on the entire planet.  End of line.

Now get this uninformed discussion out of my thread.  LAST WARNING.

From Wikipedia (you can check the sources over there) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing#Metallurgy):

Quote

Tamahagane, as a raw material, is a highly impure metal. Formed in a bloomery process, the kera of sponge iron begins as an inhomogeneous mixture of wrought iron, steels, and pig iron. The pig iron contains more than 2% carbon. The tamahagane has about 1 to 1.5% carbon while the hocho iron contains about 0.2%. Steel that has a carbon content between tamahagane and hocho iron is called bu-kera, which is often resmelted with the pig iron to make saga-hagane, containing roughly 0.7% carbon. Most of the bu-kera, hocho iron and saga-hagane will be sold for making other items, like tools and knives, and only the best pieces of tamahagane, hocho iron, and pig iron are used for swordsmithing.

The various metals are also filled with slag, phosphorus and other impurities. Separation of the various metals from the kera was traditionally performed by breaking it apart with small hammers dropped from a certain height, and then examining the fractures, in a process similar to the modern Charpy impact test. The nature of the fractures are different for different types of steel. The tamahagane, in particular, contains pearlite, which produces a characteristic pearlescent-sheen on the crystals.[22]

During the folding process, most of the impurities are removed from the steel, continuously refining the steel while forging. By the end of forging, the steel produced was among the purest steel-alloys of the ancient world. Due to the continuous heating the steel tends to decarburize, so a good quantity of carbon is either extracted from the steel as carbon dioxide or redistributed more evenly through diffusion, leaving a nearly eutectoid composition (containing 0.77 to 0.8% carbon).[23][24] The edge-steel itself will generally end up with a composition that ranges from eutectoid to slightly hypoeutectoid (containing a carbon content under the eutectoid composition), giving enough hardenability without sacrificing ductility[25] The skin-steel generally has slightly less carbon, often in the range of 0.5%. The core-steel, however, remains nearly pure iron, responding very little to heat treatment.[25] Cyril Stanley Smith, a professor of metallurgical history from MIT, performed an analysis of four different swords, each from a different century, determining the composition of the surface of the blades:[26]

( Emphasis Mine )

You can't post something wrong and then make up rules to justify ending the conversation. That's not how forums work.

I don't care what you or your wife are or are not, you're horribly misinformed and posting revisionist history.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on December 17, 2016, 05:19:23 am

"Stay on topic" is not a new rule. You have been asked repeatedly and by several people not to continue this line of discussion. This thread is not the place for it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on December 17, 2016, 05:30:27 am

Quote from: scriver on December 17, 2016, 05:19:23 am

"Stay on topic" is not a new rule. You have been asked repeatedly and by several people not to continue this line of discussion. This thread is not the place for it.

He could've chosen to drop it after someone else posted something "ignorant" but he didn't.

If I'm guilty of it, then so is he.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 07:57:56 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)

Just because someone's wrong, doesn't mean you gotta make a big deal over it.

Speaking of samurai, our group's samurai sword saint is seriously wiping the floor with anything I throw at him. Gonna have to figure out a way to keep it challenging without risking wiping out the rest of the party. He made mincemeat out of my skeletal champion gallowdead last night, though technically skeletons don't have any meat so I suppose the simile doesn't really make a huge amount of sense. Then again, neither does walking skeletons wielding spiked chains like they're helicopter blades.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on December 17, 2016, 08:36:22 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 07:57:56 am

Speaking of samurai, our group's samurai sword saint is seriously wiping the floor with anything I throw at him. Gonna have to figure out a way to keep it challenging without risking wiping out the rest of the party. He made mincemeat out of my skeletal champion gallowdead last night, though technically skeletons don't have any meat so I suppose the simile doesn't really make a huge amount of sense. Then again, neither does walking skeletons wielding spiked chains like they're helicopter blades.

Reflex or Will saves. Have a caster use a dominate spell of some sort on him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on December 17, 2016, 08:58:15 am

If it's that important, start a new thread over it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 17, 2016, 09:25:08 am

I asked it to be dropped, now it gets reported.  Cool down in effect.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Toady One on December 17, 2016, 01:39:34 pm

Please drop the topic or move it elsewhere whenever the thread reopens.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 17, 2016, 02:00:05 pm

Thank you Toady, I apologize for taking up your time with this.

Thread is reopened, please respect the rules in the first post and the forum guidelines.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 05:40:57 pm

The samurai has a resolve ability that lets him roll twice and take the better result for any Will or Fort save. Reflex saves are generally just hp damage, without anything majorly debilitating tacked on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 17, 2016, 05:48:16 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 05:40:57 pm

The samurai has a resolve ability that lets him roll twice and take the better result for any Will or Fort save. Reflex saves are generally just hp damage, without anything majorly debilitating tacked on.

Then make it a toughie.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 17, 2016, 05:49:50 pm

Explode the planet he's standing on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 17, 2016, 05:52:01 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 07:57:56 am

Gonna have to figure out a way to keep it challenging without risking wiping out the rest of the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 17, 2016, 06:03:10 pm

Grappling?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on December 17, 2016, 06:11:16 pm

A water level where strong armour inhibits movement? Only works if the samurai wears the most/heaviest armour in the party

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 17, 2016, 06:20:01 pm

Combat and non-combat encounters designed to allow the other characters to shine? Like traps for the rogue to disable, spellcasters for the wizard to duel, wounded for the cleric to heal, etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 06:57:27 pm

Already tried a grappling encounter, and it was good because it gave the Cleric a chance to do their stuff. The cleric's a dwarven follower of Desna with the Liberation and Travel domains. His 8th level domain power lets him automatically suppress the confused, grappled, frightened, panicked, paralyzed, pinned, or shaken conditions as a standard action.

Traps are fairly common, and I use a mix of both simple Disable Device check traps as well as puzzle traps that require thinking instead of dice to solve. I usually include them in an encounter with enemies, for example a hallway with an automatically resetting lightning based trap with a pair of bodaks inside who are immune to that energy type.

I think I might be overthinking things too much, but I guess I spend a fair amount of time prepping encounters, learning the monster's special abilities and crafting a list of loot for it, only for the samurai to come in and full attack it, taking it out in two to three rounds. Combat seems to be getting a bit formulaic in that respect. About the only thing I do have going for me is that nobody in the party has any AoE damage, so swarms of mooks with one or two big baddies is still a viable strategy.

Edit: Regarding water levels, the party treat anything involving travel through liquid like it's a death sentence. The current dungeon I created had both a sunken ship near a ruined dock at the very start, plus a secret entrance leading inside the necropolis that was through an underwater passage. They ignored both options and simply charged through the massed defenders at the front gate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 17, 2016, 07:17:11 pm

How about flying/ranged attackers to counter the Samurai's melee?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: inteuniso on December 17, 2016, 07:18:56 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 17, 2016, 07:17:11 pm

How about flying/ranged attackers to counter the Samurai's melee?

Definitely flying, or anything that can use phasing/flicker (stuff that can only be magically damaged, requiring enchanted weapons or spell-flinging)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 17, 2016, 07:27:47 pm

Quote from: inteuniso on December 17, 2016, 07:18:56 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 17, 2016, 07:17:11 pm

How about flying/ranged attackers to counter the Samurai's melee?

Definitely flying, or anything that can use phasing/flicker (stuff that can only be magically damaged, requiring enchanted weapons or spell-flinging)

Ghosts also work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 07:46:33 pm

Yep, the party definitely has trouble with ranged attackers. A pair of manticores that I threw at them as a random encounter was surprisingly effective for the CR, since they attacked with their tail spikes from 100 ft. range in the darkness while flying in the air. It took the kineticist using his gnomish magic to cast dancing lights to illuminate them, then blasting them out of the air with a pushing infusion kinetic blast before the samurai could close to melee and, you guessed it, finish them in one full attack.

The main entrance to the necropolis was similarly difficult for the group. I had two CR 8 lizardfolk skeletal champion archers with crystalline arrows that bypassed half of a target's armor bonus coated in shadow essence poison. Then I also threw in eight CR 1 kobold skeletal archers too, just firing regular arrows. One of the lizardfolk was in a belltower, and when the rogue and kineticist started climbing the wooden stairs, it cut the bell's rope (falling bell trap) and dropped it on them, smashing out the stairs beneath their feet if it hit. It was a good, tough encounter that nearly wiped the party, which was appropriate since they decided to assault the main gate instead of sneaking inside.

I do have ghosts, in fact a dread ghost lizardfolk that respawns every 1d4 hours at the entrance of the tunnel leading to the necropolis, plus two kobold ghosts that respawn every 1d4 days. It's basically there as a tax on leaving and resting after each tough fight, since it deals strength and constitution drain as an incorporeal touch attack. Not something you want to get hit with every day if you can help it, otherwise the restorations start getting expensive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 17, 2016, 09:43:24 pm

Have two ranks of undead fighters.  The first rank has AC out the wazoo (plate, tower shield, the works).  The second rank, just behind the shields, has reach weapons.  The shield wall should be at least as wide as the hallway they fight in, or at least have hindering terrain to make flanking not too simple.  If the melee wishes to charge in, he will face at least 6 attacks, and he will have to push through the shield wall to get to the spearmen.  Probably can only kill one a round anyway.

---

A squad of undead at the top of a flight of stairs, most of them have ranged weapons.  Have one dump oil (or grease spell) all over the stairs, so climbing them means likely slipping and falling down.  Or have barrels to roll down the stairs, knocking anyone down.  Have the barrel shatter or break at the foot of the stairs, covering the area in oil ready to ignite with a torch.

---

Have something cast the entangle spell.  Anything trapped by it gets poked by reach weapons from others.  Chances are the party might not have reach weapons, so they can get poked without much retaliation.

---

Skeletons are immune to cold damage.  Have a bunch of skeletons engage in melee with the party.  Meanwhile a spell caster (its a necropolis, maybe some necromancer loser snuck in) tosses AoE ice spells into the melee ball.  The party takes damage, but the skeletons don't care.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on December 17, 2016, 09:44:50 pm

All nice/nasty ideas, but I think Jimmy's trying to deal with a single problem character, not wipe the floor with most of the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 17, 2016, 11:50:04 pm

I've come up with a fun encounter! [/cackle]

I've been trying to decide what to do with the room I've made into the ruins of a lizardfolk brothel. There's a few fun pieces of loot in there too, but I think I've also come up with a good undead monster to lurk inside. I'm gonna go with a Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-class-templates/rogue-creature-cr-1-or-2) Missing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/missing-cr-3) Petrified Maiden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/petrified-maiden) and swap out the Cleave and Power Attack feats for Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.

Stealth skill of +21 and the ability to make checks in full view means it should be able to dish out some hurt pretty bad with ranged sneak attack. Plus it'll likely get attacks of opportunity for the party moving in its threatened area, inflicting its curse with a successful slam. Hopefully displacement will give it a bit of survivability too against the samurai's melee, though he does have Blind Fight so he rerolls miss chance.

Now I've got a loot budget of 10,050 gp for the NPC creature, and it already has a +1 composite +4 Str longbow worth 2,800 gp. What other gear should I add to it to make it nastier I wonder? Poisoned arrows? Armor? Magical rings or wondrous items?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 17, 2016, 11:53:04 pm

Implying a Lizardfolk brothel isn't already fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 18, 2016, 01:16:10 am

Decided to keep it simple and went with bracers of armor +1, ring of protection +1 and cloak of resistance +2, as well as 40 arrows poisoned with black adder venom. We'll see if the samurai burns through all his daily resolve on the poison saving throws before he gets hit with the curse. Even odds are that the party's magus/cavalier will probably buff his AC sky high and end up making him near untouchable though. They've built a multiclass character that focuses on using Aid Another to hand out massive bonuses, like +7 stacking bonuses to hit or to AC. I must remind them, however, that unless they can see the enemy, they can't use their special Aid Another skills.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on December 18, 2016, 11:12:16 pm

Here's a tip for DM's:

Don't base your encounter on your party's best player and expect everyone else to be like them. My DM just sent a CR30 encounter after us and we almost died killing one of the two CR15 enemies and the other one let us go.

The DM instead of dealing with me by making the enemy resist my attacks, he buffed up their HP to an amount that rivals a terrasque...

And we're only level 5... He said I kept doing consistently 80-90 damage per turn because I get an extra 1d6 damage on a 1d12 attack as a barbarian. Not including the potions of fire giant strength I keep on hand...

We now have a new player coming in and the battle was so hard, that she was useless. 5th Edition and these enemies have 20AC and over 500hp. The one encounter was 3 hours long...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 18, 2016, 11:14:42 pm

Quote

5th Edition and these enemies have 20AC and over 500hp

What the freeken heck? You guys are fighting CR 20s?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 18, 2016, 11:17:27 pm

One thing I've noticed is that 5e encounter difficulty is whacked. In the last one-off I ran, two 3rd level PCs almost got their asses handed to them by 5-6 goblins.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 18, 2016, 11:37:16 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 18, 2016, 11:17:27 pm

One thing I've noticed is that 5e encounter difficulty is whacked. In the last one-off I ran, two 3rd level PCs almost got their asses handed to them by 5-6 goblins.

At low levels you do have to be careful. The game actually makes note that some monsters while they have a low CR, are more then capable of defeating low level characters.

However looking at the calculations... Yet that is how it should have went.

Goblins are worth 50exp each,... 5-6 of them double their exp value... 500

A hard encounter for a 3rd level character is 225 exp each for a total of 450.

It WAS a hard encounter with a party that had limited resources.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on December 19, 2016, 12:31:32 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 18, 2016, 11:17:27 pm

One thing I've noticed is that 5e encounter difficulty is whacked. In the last one-off I ran, two 3rd level PCs almost got their asses handed to them by 5-6 goblins.

I sent 6 goblins and 3 goblin bosses after a party of 4 level 5's and if it wasn;t for the fact the party had a nightmare and two extra party members, they would have been overrun.

Quote from: Neonivek on December 18, 2016, 11:37:16 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 18, 2016, 11:17:27 pm

One thing I've noticed is that 5e encounter difficulty is whacked. In the last one-off I ran, two 3rd level PCs almost got their asses handed to them by 5-6 goblins.

At low levels you do have to be careful. The game actually makes note that some monsters while they have a low CR, are more then capable of defeating low level characters.

However looking at the calculations... Yet that is how it should have went.

Goblins are worth 50exp each,... 5-6 of them double their exp value... 500

A hard encounter for a 3rd level character is 225 exp each for a total of 450.

It WAS a hard encounter with a party that had limited resources.

Wait, when do you double XP amounts?

But yeah, my DM is gonna revamp his encounters he planned because he didn't realize my one weakness: my weapons are not actually magical. He specified that the berserker axe that I got that I was cursed to use didn't inflict magical damage (and I thought that was where he was going with this). So if he wanted to cripple me, since we have two casters (a cleric and a druid), he just had to make them resistant to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning or even immune. This would make me have to do the role I was hoping to do: tank. I have a 17AC (can be 18 because I'm a shifter) and I prevent enemies from attacking my allies and moving at them with sentinel.

Also, in lighter news, had my holiday session (I was DMing). Had them participate in festive events such as singing, ice fishing, polar dip (called it a frozen swim), ice sculpting, and riddles (which someone got all of them right without checks). The mystic caused a bunch of the swimmers to take off thier swimwear and hurl it into the crowd and then the next batch of them run up to the ice sculptors and rub them. The party wizard met with her vampire boss, seduced him to dance with her, and the two of them double crit. When the mystic tried to fuck with them, the vampire boss, being the awesome guy he is, had a field of anti-magic around him when they did this.

The party had a good time, and I managed to end them off right into the fight with the first boss. I know its bad to end the session before a big thing like this, but I was strapped for time and we got distracted a lot.

My only sad thing was we tried cooking dinner and the stove broke and the person in our group who organized cooking everything broke down so we had to take some time to get out and have a few laughs (at my expense as I fell on the ice on purpose to make her laugh... Then I fell four more times not on purpose) and then we returned to the session and things were all better.

I also learned something too: flying mounts are a big problem with splitting the party ;D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 12:33:05 am

Quote from: highmax28 on December 19, 2016, 12:31:32 am

Wait, when do you double XP amounts?

Maybe it was because I had only 2 players? IDK.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 12:38:27 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 12:33:05 am

Quote from: highmax28 on December 19, 2016, 12:31:32 am

Wait, when do you double XP amounts?

Maybe it was because I had only 2 players? IDK.

It is because you had 5-6 monsters in that encounter who "Significantly contribute to that encounter"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 12:57:11 am

Quote from: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 12:38:27 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 12:33:05 am

Quote from: highmax28 on December 19, 2016, 12:31:32 am

Wait, when do you double XP amounts?

Maybe it was because I had only 2 players? IDK.

It is because you had 5-6 monsters in that encounter who "Significantly contribute to that encounter"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/NrjC0xK.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 01:11:39 am

That is funny because it is an entire step in the DMs guide... In fact the step after "Calculate total exp"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 01:16:18 am

Yeah, I didn't read that.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on December 19, 2016, 02:52:38 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 01:16:18 am

Yeah, I didn't read that.  :P

So you didnt read the rule, then surprised that you nearly killed your party?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 03:38:18 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 19, 2016, 02:52:38 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 01:16:18 am

Yeah, I didn't read that.  :P

So you didnt read the rule, then surprised that you nearly killed your party?

*shrug* Sue me, I was too busy contacting any friend who was still in town, and might be interested in joining a one-off. I think I asked like 7 different people, only two of which showed up, and one was my roommate.

When designing encounters, I add the monsters' CR together, which, in this case, is 1.5, because that's easier on me. Logically, 2 3rd level characters, shouldn't have any trouble with that. They're goblins, for crying out loud!

Either way, my point was that fighting mobs of creatures is unequivocally harder than actual boss fights. If there's one thing you can say about 4e, they addressed that problem well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 03:45:30 am

Have you used a boss yet? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 03:47:25 am

Yes, in the one-off. It was a boss that got buffed the longer the PCs fought its much smaller (after their poor performance the first time) retinue. It was a bit more of a fair fight, but they still were able to focus it down, and easily take it out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 04:24:22 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 03:47:25 am

Yes, in the one-off. It was a boss that got buffed the longer the PCs fought its much smaller (after their poor performance the first time) retinue. It was a bit more of a fair fight, but they still were able to focus it down, and easily take it out.

So it had 3 legendary actions and 3/day legendary resistance?

Also did it have Lair actions? :P

Yes I LOVE Dungeons and Dragons 5e :P I'd run it again but... well there are reasons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 19, 2016, 06:04:42 am

Yeah, at low levels your greatest enemy in D&D 5e is massed ranks of mooks. My group is very melee-focused and we got hemmed in by kobolds with enfilading crossbows above and nearly got creamed (We correctly figured that focusing on their boss to kill him would break their morale)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 04:15:15 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 04:24:22 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 03:47:25 am

Yes, in the one-off. It was a boss that got buffed the longer the PCs fought its much smaller (after their poor performance the first time) retinue. It was a bit more of a fair fight, but they still were able to focus it down, and easily take it out.

So it had 3 legendary actions and 3/day legendary resistance?
Also did it have Lair actions? :P

My players had just had their ass handed to them by five goblins. Take a guess. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on December 20, 2016, 06:08:10 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 04:15:15 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 04:24:22 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 03:47:25 am

Yes, in the one-off. It was a boss that got buffed the longer the PCs fought its much smaller (after their poor performance the first time) retinue. It was a bit more of a fair fight, but they still were able to focus it down, and easily take it out.

So it had 3 legendary actions and 3/day legendary resistance?
Also did it have Lair actions? :P

My players had just had their ass handed to them by five goblins. Take a guess. :P

So then it was a stripped down boss. So you havent actually used an encounter properly yet, then jab at it, that 4e did it better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 20, 2016, 09:26:53 am

Addendum 2: KEEP IT CIVIL, no attacks, no attitude (even me.)

Warning one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on December 20, 2016, 10:19:17 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 20, 2016, 06:08:10 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 04:15:15 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on December 19, 2016, 04:24:22 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 19, 2016, 03:47:25 am

Yes, in the one-off. It was a boss that got buffed the longer the PCs fought its much smaller (after their poor performance the first time) retinue. It was a bit more of a fair fight, but they still were able to focus it down, and easily take it out.

So it had 3 legendary actions and 3/day legendary resistance?
Also did it have Lair actions? :P

My players had just had their ass handed to them by five goblins. Take a guess. :P

So then it was a stripped down boss. So you havent actually used an encounter properly yet, then jab at it, that 4e did it better.

Can you explain this better? I think something got lost here

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 20, 2016, 02:45:14 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 20, 2016, 06:08:10 am

So then it was a stripped down boss. So you havent actually used an encounter properly yet, then jab at it, that 4e did it better.

Yes, it was. However, since it had never been used before, and was based around a gimmick mechanic that also had never been used before, it was difficult to tell how to use it properly.

My remark about 4e was in reference to the way that power economy and party composition worked in a very specific way. Your controller has access to powerful AOE, so a fight against 5-6 goblins is suddenly a lot easier. Boss battles can now be deadlier, but at the same time, easier, as you now feel okay about spending Daily powers. The intensity gets ramped up in an interesting way naturally, while I find myself having to work much harder to find ways to develop that intensity in other editions.

I'm not trying to start an edition fight, I'm just comparing the two edition's boss/gang fights. I love 5e to death, and have a grudging respect for 4e as a fantasy tactical game. It does that well, if nothing else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on December 20, 2016, 03:33:17 pm

Having trouble against 5-6 goblins makes logical sense to me. Being that outnumbered by humanoids is bad news, even if they're tiny humanoids. And saying that the party "nearly died" is RPG speak for "the party was inconvenienced slightly." :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 20, 2016, 03:54:10 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 20, 2016, 03:33:17 pm

And saying that the party "nearly died" is RPG speak for "the party was inconvenienced slightly." :P

I can't dispute that. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on December 20, 2016, 11:29:43 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 20, 2016, 03:54:10 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 20, 2016, 03:33:17 pm

And saying that the party "nearly died" is RPG speak for "the party was inconvenienced slightly." :P

I can't dispute that. :P

Never underestimate something overwhelmingly stupid in overwhelming numbers.

I had to redo an encounter when I realized that a crapton of bandits and two berserkers would kill my party

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on December 21, 2016, 12:04:29 am

The only time my group has actually made it all the way to a PK (had some very, very close misses) was fighting the four skeleton archers left after killing a bearded devil and associated evil wizard. The closest miss was accidentally fighting every guard and every devil in a devil-worshipper's mansion at once, which included three imps, another bearded devil, two nobles and three mooks. Numbers be scary, yo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 21, 2016, 12:12:59 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on December 20, 2016, 02:45:14 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on December 20, 2016, 06:08:10 am

So then it was a stripped down boss. So you havent actually used an encounter properly yet, then jab at it, that 4e did it better.

Yes, it was. However, since it had never been used before, and was based around a gimmick mechanic that also had never been used before, it was difficult to tell how to use it properly.

My remark about 4e was in reference to the way that power economy and party composition worked in a very specific way. Your controller has access to powerful AOE, so a fight against 5-6 goblins is suddenly a lot easier. Boss battles can now be deadlier, but at the same time, easier, as you now feel okay about spending Daily powers. The intensity gets ramped up in an interesting way naturally, while I find myself having to work much harder to find ways to develop that intensity in other editions.

I'm not trying to start an edition fight, I'm just comparing the two edition's boss/gang fights. I love 5e to death, and have a grudging respect for 4e as a fantasy tactical game. It does that well, if nothing else.

Well the thing is... they kind of both use the same system for bosses :P

Actually 5e is more of an evolution of it, as it is more flexible with the boss mechanics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on December 21, 2016, 01:41:43 am

At one point, I didn't know how CR worked and thought that FOUR monsters with a CR of the party's level was an appropriate challenge.

...

I'm still not quite sure how they managed to survive the 5-6 adventures until I figured out the actual rules. Lots of 20s and Dwarven bonuses to Con and saves, probably.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 21, 2016, 01:50:05 am

Just remember: no matter how badly you fucked up as a DM, it's always the players' faults.

Party wipes are never fun. Neither are near-PKs. Even at its silliest, it's infuriating.

When we were in a Mythic campaign with the DM that's terrible with encounter design, all our frontliners went down trying to chase down and melee a dragon. In two different dragon encounters.

Also, fuck the Giantslayer Adventure Path. Whoever designed that just loves meat-grinders.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 21, 2016, 05:45:36 am

This is why I love playing spellcasters, especially summoner classes. A huge amount of monsters are statted to have "nope, nope, fuck nope!" abilities that work in melee range. Let some other chump take the saving throws. Die for me, my minions!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on December 21, 2016, 09:33:33 am

Since two of my regular Friday group is away for Christmas, the remaining four of us will be doing a level 1 Pathfinder one-shot with one of my players in the DM chair.

I've gone with Amiri, the human female barbarian for my character. My goal is to try and pull off as many Skyrim guard one-liners as possible

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on December 21, 2016, 10:05:58 am

Thoughts on Curse of Strahd?

I want to run it from how ProJared keeps talking about it but I don't know if that's because he had a good DM or if it's because it's actually good

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on December 21, 2016, 10:22:15 am

Quote from: Arcvasti on December 21, 2016, 01:41:43 am

At one point, I didn't know how CR worked and thought that FOUR monsters with a CR of the party's level was an appropriate challenge.

If this was 3.5 (not sure about 4 or 5) this isn't totally inaccurate. Cr has only a passing resemblance to correct in 3.5, which makes sense of course, since the power level of parties can vary wildly between the same level and a lot of times enemies can loose a huge amount of effectiveness when you've got characters a bit above the 'expected' power level, a situation that I find much more common then the reverse. 4 dudes of the parties CR isn't that wild in that situation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 21, 2016, 11:57:32 am

Quote from: highmax28 on December 21, 2016, 10:05:58 am

Thoughts on Curse of Strahd?

I want to run it from how ProJared keeps talking about it but I don't know if that's because he had a good DM or if it's because it's actually good

You REALLY REALLY need players who want to roll with the punches.

Because that thing can be very easy or cripplingly difficult depending on how lucky (yes lucky) the players are. It is actually hilarious how easy victory can be if luck is on the player's side and how hilariously bad it can be if they are unlucky... I want to reveal more but I can't.

ALSO! Unlike some adventures this one requires you to sort of keep who knows what inside your own head and invent it... Because, unlike what I would have suspected, the scenario doesn't tell you what each NPC knows.

It is a lot like the elemental adventures book where it requires YOU the player to actually design the sessions yourself. You CANNOT run the session from the book inspite that being the point of these :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on December 21, 2016, 05:28:36 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on December 21, 2016, 05:45:36 am

This is why I love playing spellcasters, especially summoner classes. A huge amount of monsters are statted to have "nope, nope, fuck nope!" abilities that work in melee range. Let some other chump take the saving throws. Die for me, my minions!

I prefer ranged characters myself, but that and minion-mancy won't save your ass from coup-de-graces in your sleep. We had to check the official Paizo messageboards to discover that the way the assassin encounter was supposed to be run is not actually mentioned in the books. We live in the town, why the hell would the devs expect us residents to all sleep in a single small room in the inn when we haven't even met any antagonists? Why would the assassins sneak into a town, pick the doors to our room(s), then just make a regular attack on us while we sleep, even though their weapons are poisoned and they are intelligent Rogues?

Sorry, the rest of the party and I are still salty. One person ripped up their character sheet. We've been told that the adventure only gets harder from here, and we are expected to hold off an entire army in an immense encounter that will last us several levels. As in no break as we rapidly gain levels from wave after wave of opponents. At least according to those I've spoken with that have run the campaign.

Also, we're not really allowed to play "team too many friends" anymore, due to a Necromancy incident.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on December 21, 2016, 05:37:09 pm

In all fairness I have seen GOOD games where the characters are attacked, undeserved, by some assassin in the middle of the night.

Mind you, those games were good... So the fact that you really didn't do anything... was a plot point.

In one of them it was because you were destined to defeat someone, so they sent assassins after you to kill you early... essentially throwing you on their track immediately (OPPS!) which is especially funny because there is no reason for you to have even bothered with this person (As they are hard to get to) anyhow.

Bonus point that you got woken up first.

In another one it was purely random chance and a LOT of people were killed or captured before you... also immediately throwing you on track.

In a third one, it was meant to show how the entire town was watching you. You didn't really get any real leads, no one would really talk to you, but everyone was hostile towards you... You would later get attacked at the inn (which they used to get rid of... unwanted guests) but there were ways around it such as barricading the door in advance (or, technically I guess you could not ask the town questions)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 21, 2016, 07:49:53 pm

I kind of enjoy the sheer paranoia my players tend to have, especially in RIFTS.

Hostile town?

If players are Coalition:

1 ) they are clearly d-bee/magic user/demonically possessed.  Level the entire area with ridiculous firepower.

2 ) we need to question them.  Send a request up to HQ for air support and a company of skelebots.

3 ) the location is strategically important.  'This is lieutenant x, calling for DHT deployment of third airborn at my location.'

If players are not coalition:

1 ) they are clearly CS/vampire/demonically possessed.  Level the entire area with ridiculous firepower.

2 ) we need to question them.  Send in the dragon, he'll get answers.  (alternately: where is the nearest nexus, we'll use magic to pacify the whole town)

3 ) the location is strategically important.  'Run!! The CS is coming!!'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on December 22, 2016, 09:49:21 am

Quote from: Neonivek on December 21, 2016, 11:57:32 am

Quote from: highmax28 on December 21, 2016, 10:05:58 am

Thoughts on Curse of Strahd?

I want to run it from how ProJared keeps talking about it but I don't know if that's because he had a good DM or if it's because it's actually good

You REALLY REALLY need players who want to roll with the punches.

Because that thing can be very easy or cripplingly difficult depending on how lucky (yes lucky) the players are. It is actually hilarious how easy victory can be if luck is on the player's side and how hilariously bad it can be if they are unlucky... I want to reveal more but I can't.

ALSO! Unlike some adventures this one requires you to sort of keep who knows what inside your own head and invent it... Because, unlike what I would have suspected, the scenario doesn't tell you what each NPC knows.

It is a lot like the elemental adventures book where it requires YOU the player to actually design the sessions yourself. You CANNOT run the session from the book inspite that being the point of these :P

I'm sold. Ill pick it up tomorrow

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on December 23, 2016, 04:12:01 pm

Just came back from my group's almost-weekly (it often gets canceled due to someone having personal problems) D&D 5e session. I'd say it was a good session. We exorcised our rogue, who was possessed, and I became gnome Che Guevara in Fantasy Mexico.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 29, 2016, 04:46:14 pm

Good post-holiday NWoD session last night.  With one particularly bittersweet moment...

In true Scooby-Do fashion our party of demonically-enhanced investigators split up to investigate 3 separate lights...  deep in a Tennessee forest graveyard, at night.  Mm-hm.
My character Brian carries the high-tech camera, and as he walked it switched it to infrared mode.  Mm.  Completely surrounded by frigid signatures in the july heat, figures with shoulders squared towards him.  Moving out of his way as he approached the light.
Definitely not the creepiest thing so far this chronicle.  Bit close though.  He carried on, for truth (and, he added out loud, "to find the problem plaguing these poor souls who are very kind to let me by")

As he got closer to the light, something was especially off.  He was fortunate and noticed- the trees.  They were taller, much taller.  Impossibly tall?  Not natural for this area...  Intelligence has its perks. 

The point of light became a glow as he reached a clearing.  In the center was a child, capturing fireflies.
My character turned and ran, flat-out, never looking back.

See, here's the thing:  I don't know how changelings work in NWoD, hardly at all.  But I recognize the signs, and my character would certainly know them too (high points in occult, kinda obsessed).  This was some Feywild shit.
And as a player, I really wanted to see where that went.  A lot.
But, my character?  In his meteoric plunge into immorality, the one derangement he's gained is:  A severe phobia of children.
So, no.
Not visiting the... fey...  Realm of Thorns?  Again, I don't know the details, doesn't matter.  It was disappointing, but there was absolutely no way my character was staying another second.

Which, IDK.  Kinda works.  Particularly since it took the rest of the party (GM included) a second to remember Brian's child phobia.
Said phobia was obtained by tricking kids into being possessed by demons, and the NWoD fey realm (from my little understanding) is a very acute form of that shame.  Changelings...

We also sought a not-bigfoot called The Knobby (NOTHING HAPPENED NOTHING HAPPENED) and a supposed bobcat-like creature called the wampus cat (literally, nothing happened).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 02, 2017, 01:58:58 am

So my party pulled the stupidest shit tonight.

The mystic told a giant boss to jump off a cliff into a river, and he missed the river. The height of the cliff caused the damage to be 97 damage total.

THEN. The most ridiculous thing ever happened.

The party had to traverse an area without mounts, which wouldn't do for the party wizard. So she says:

"Why don't I just attach the carriage to my nightmare?"

My first mistake was letting the wizard be able to tame it with an animal handling check (which she crit because she asked if she could, and a DM never says no).

My second one was underestimating the creativity of the girl I'm dating and her friend.

The cleric whips out a flying carpet and says "We can have him work with this!" And it ended up with the party taking off the wheels and the canopy of the carriage, making it much lighter, essentially making it a sled.

So they jury rig with a lot of rope and over things, a carriage stretched to a flying carpet, with both being pulled by a nightmare.

Being the dead of winter in world, I made a joke saying:

Barely even a month after the winter solstice, over the elvish woods, people saw a man driving a flying sleigh being pulled by some strange horse-like creature that led them through the cold with its reddish glow. Something was also being pulled as well, but some say it was four people huddled, others say it was a bag of goodies.

And that, my friends, is the beginning of the story of how Santa Claus was born

My party warlock said "so we're essentially acting as Santa while hunting an undead menace known as vampirism...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 02, 2017, 02:38:40 am

That reminds me, I've been drawing up a campaign for several years now (and it is still nowhere near complete) that is Christmas themed, I've go to do some more work on that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on January 02, 2017, 08:12:01 am

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.d20.io/images/26867787/bGgNIvfVjUekRoO1Hy1vVg/max.png)

STAR WARS

Part 1 - Flight of the Sith (https://brorlandi.github.io/StarWarsIntroCreator/#!/AK_UHsgq1g8_3MuH6JkW)

The SITH FEDERATION has fallen, as the REBEL
COALITION has struck out across the galaxy and
taken the vast majority of fortified positions across
FEDERATION space.

On the Sith training planet of Kalpa, COALITION forces
are tightening the noose, preventing any future insurrections
from exploding across the galaxy.

A group of trainees prepare to break free from the blockade
and continue the war against the COALITION...

-----

Link to the Campaign Forum (https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/65485/star-wars-flight-of-the-sith)

I'm looking for some more players for a text-based Star Wars campaign. All the info is on the link.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on January 02, 2017, 09:40:37 am

Aaaargh
Woud love to join but I'm at work during the sessions. Hope you folks have fun!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 02, 2017, 10:40:36 am

I have no idea what is stopping me from freeken making my Dragon Ball RPG system brainstorm thread... It is like I am physically incapable inspite having an ok layout.

For example instead of Ki being directly MP... Instead characters have very little... Their Ki stat determining how much they recover every turn (as well as there being a maximum)... And regardless you don't start battles at full Ki either. What I am working with is a recovery of 1 ki a turn, and starting with 3-5 out of 10.

Next is the fact that in spite no one being a "physical" character in the series, everyone wants to make one anyway. Yet what is the point of non-ki using attacks? To break the opponent's defense and create damage opportunities.

Then there is technique and what it does is lower the ki cost of abilities, to an extent. But let me explain that.

Skills, transformations, and the like all are put together with pieces. Low, Medium, and High damage modifier is essentially free (2, 4, and 8 respectably). You can add modifiers and either pay for them with Ki or with technique, assuming it is available (Only some can.)

This is because "creating your own skills" is always considered one of the most important parts of any Dragon Ball RPG. It is something I'd like to retain. If you gain a level of technique then BOOM! you can modify all your skills (just like Krillin does)... In fact you can make modified techniques if your transformation includes an increase in technique.

Now Transformations are a bit trickier and include things like permafusions, Oozaru, Super Saiyan, and even King Kai Fist. The idea I have for them is they put a drain on your Ki recovery and have a buy in level (You don't start a fight transformed... unless that is its ability) you have to reach.

---

The techniques themselves are a huge problem with most games as they have to represent the large breadth of possible options and often bump into issues. A big issue is, for example, Destructo Disk. So what is Destructo Disk for this game?

It is a medium sharp attack. Sharp attacks deal their damage if they penetrate a character's stability (A buffer before they take damage).

Kamehameha is a Low Continuous attack. Continuous attacks don't deal their full damage immediately but rather after they strike a hit the user has an option to spend Ki to increase the damage. It is a safer alternative.

---

The issue I am hitting is how to make player's stats a bit more spread out... AND how to stop players from just wracking up overpowered combinations.

A Shadowrun priority system might help... OR putting skills into categories (Maybe Technique is a derived stat).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 02, 2017, 12:46:34 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on January 02, 2017, 01:58:58 am

So my party pulled the stupidest shit tonight.

The mystic told a giant boss to jump off a cliff into a river, and he missed the river. The height of the cliff caused the damage to be 97 damage total.

THEN. The most ridiculous thing ever happened.

The party had to traverse an area without mounts, which wouldn't do for the party wizard. So she says:

"Why don't I just attach the carriage to my nightmare?"

My first mistake was letting the wizard be able to tame it with an animal handling check (which she crit because she asked if she could, and a DM never says no).

My second one was underestimating the creativity of the girl I'm dating and her friend.

The cleric whips out a flying carpet and says "We can have him work with this!" And it ended up with the party taking off the wheels and the canopy of the carriage, making it much lighter, essentially making it a sled.

So they jury rig with a lot of rope and over things, a carriage stretched to a flying carpet, with both being pulled by a nightmare.

Being the dead of winter in world, I made a joke saying:

Barely even a month after the winter solstice, over the elvish woods, people saw a man driving a flying sleigh being pulled by some strange horse-like creature that led them through the cold with its reddish glow. Something was also being pulled as well, but some say it was four people huddled, others say it was a bag of goodies.

And that, my friends, is the beginning of the story of how Santa Claus was born

My party warlock said "so we're essentially acting as Santa while hunting an undead menace known as vampirism...

I forgot to mention, the party skipped not only like 2/3 encounters and a big encounter I had planned for them, but they also managed to skip the dungeon I had planned for them leading to the big bad because they can fly to the top of the tower where the boss's coffin is

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on January 03, 2017, 06:04:08 am

Quote from: Sirus on January 02, 2017, 09:40:37 am

Aaaargh
Woud love to join but I'm at work during the sessions. Hope you folks have fun!

Yeah, it's my night time. :p

I'm still looking for one more player who has the ability to spell "apprentice".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolepgeek on January 06, 2017, 02:23:03 pm

How did I not know about this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 06, 2017, 02:31:50 pm

I honestly have no idea.  It does seem like your kind of thread, doesn't it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on January 06, 2017, 02:48:11 pm

So what do people think about the new Exalted version?  The combat system looks fucking amazing. 

In case you're not in the know, one of the annoying problems with games like D&D is the nature of HP.  It's supposedly an abstraction, but this never actually pans out in the rules.  HP in D&D is supposed to be a mix of wounds, morale, advantage, etc. but aside from bard abilities (which just seem weird as they're the only good example) all that still just boils down to hitting each other with shit until somebody dies.

Exalted 3e uses Initiative as a sort of advantage currency with the aim of producing more cinematic combat.  You can make Withering attacks and Decisive attacks.  Most of the fight consists of withering attacks, which are roleplayed like normal attacks but OOC and rules-wise they never do real damage.  Instead, they're the attacks that put the opponent out of position, force them back, etc.  When you "hit" a withering attack, you steal initiative points from the opponent.  Then you can spend your initiative on decisive attacks which do real damage.    It leads to a more movie-style combat where the fighters dance around and fight for position but nobody actually touches each other until somebody does a spin kick and the fight's over.

The only drawback is it takes fucking forever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on January 06, 2017, 02:53:00 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on January 06, 2017, 02:48:11 pm

The only drawback is it takes fucking forever.

Unfortunately the case of every combat system that seems like it's a good idea.

Even RuneQuest, where combat takes about three turns at most, takes god damn ages.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on January 06, 2017, 02:56:34 pm

I mean D&D tends to take a long time too.  Maybe not 5e, I don't have much experience with it, but I remember 3e combat taking a few hours for two or three turns.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on January 06, 2017, 04:40:12 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on January 06, 2017, 02:56:34 pm

I mean D&D tends to take a long time too.  Maybe not 5e, I don't have much experience with it, but I remember 3e combat taking a few hours for two or three turns.

5e can be fast, but it boils down to luck. Turns themselves are pretty fast, though. Roll to hit. If you hit, roll for damage. That's it.

Unfortunately for my party, half the players seem incapable of hitting anything ever, except other party members (which happens semi-frequently). Our bard is banned from doing anything except spells and bard abilities because he shot the rogue too many times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 06, 2017, 08:50:15 pm

I agree that D&D can go pretty slow. Last night's session of combat ran thus: Party retreats to rest, finds that the dread ghost respawns at the entrance of the underground necropolis every 1d4 hours, fights it twice before they go searching for its remains and break the curse, then two hours of combat ensue as they enter the underground temple in the city and kill the eight ghast kobolds and dread ghast lizardfolk cleric.

I was honestly expecting them to go a little bit faster than one room per session, considering this part of the map has a good dozen rooms in it. Of course most don't actually have enemies or traps inside, just loot or the occasional puzzle. So far they've been cannily selecting the path of most resistance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Nahere on January 07, 2017, 06:54:08 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 02, 2017, 10:40:36 am

I have no idea what is stopping me from freeken making my Dragon Ball RPG system brainstorm thread... It is like I am physically incapable inspite having an ok layout.

For example instead of Ki being directly MP... Instead characters have very little... Their Ki stat determining how much they recover every turn (as well as there being a maximum)... And regardless you don't start battles at full Ki either. What I am working with is a recovery of 1 ki a turn, and starting with 3-5 out of 10.

Next is the fact that in spite no one being a "physical" character in the series, everyone wants to make one anyway. Yet what is the point of non-ki using attacks? To break the opponent's defense and create damage opportunities.

Then there is technique and what it does is lower the ki cost of abilities, to an extent. But let me explain that.

Skills, transformations, and the like all are put together with pieces. Low, Medium, and High damage modifier is essentially free (2, 4, and 8 respectably). You can add modifiers and either pay for them with Ki or with technique, assuming it is available (Only some can.)

This is because "creating your own skills" is always considered one of the most important parts of any Dragon Ball RPG. It is something I'd like to retain. If you gain a level of technique then BOOM! you can modify all your skills (just like Krillin does)... In fact you can make modified techniques if your transformation includes an increase in technique.

Now Transformations are a bit trickier and include things like permafusions, Oozaru, Super Saiyan, and even King Kai Fist. The idea I have for them is they put a drain on your Ki recovery and have a buy in level (You don't start a fight transformed... unless that is its ability) you have to reach.

---

The techniques themselves are a huge problem with most games as they have to represent the large breadth of possible options and often bump into issues. A big issue is, for example, Destructo Disk. So what is Destructo Disk for this game?

It is a medium sharp attack. Sharp attacks deal their damage if they penetrate a character's stability (A buffer before they take damage).

Kamehameha is a Low Continuous attack. Continuous attacks don't deal their full damage immediately but rather after they strike a hit the user has an option to spend Ki to increase the damage. It is a safer alternative.

---

The issue I am hitting is how to make player's stats a bit more spread out... AND how to stop players from just wracking up overpowered combinations.

A Shadowrun priority system might help... OR putting skills into categories (Maybe Technique is a derived stat).

If you want inspiration piecewise toyed around with an interesting martial arts system a while back here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=135964.0).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 07, 2017, 12:19:53 pm

That is kind of the thing... Dragon Ball past the original isn't about Martial arts

They are martial artists but the actual punching and kicking is only there to soften the enemy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 07, 2017, 02:35:52 pm

Might still have some useful ideas, after all, the Z fighters power is directly derived from their mastery of martial arts, well, all of them except Goku and Gohan.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on January 07, 2017, 04:17:24 pm

I've tried for ten years to make a  dbz combat systems. I couldnt get anything to work. Started with InstantFuzion. And sprung from there, with other systems. We tried a d20 system, as well... it was the heyday of d20 so why not. BESM 2e, Thrash and a series of original series. The best system we had, was this neat series of effects you applied every combat round. There was a selection and you pick a few of them, and had this knock back system, that was used to fling folks away, or slam into the ground and it translated into making craters... It was awesome but it had a lot of flow issues.  Combat took way to longer, and part of the feeling that we were going for with dbz was speed and intensity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 07, 2017, 04:29:57 pm

Which is why my first intent was to immediately simplify it down to its basic elements of choreography.

Looking towards failed attempts I could easily see where the faults are... As well as what people wanted to maintain.

For example the biggest issue with the majority of them is Ki inflation... and power inflation.

Another is defense... Just flat out defense.

I don't think I'll use a level system (though... honestly it really could work...)

---

The combo flow I intend is that characters attempt to knock a character off balance through standard attacks (or specialized Ki attacks)... THEN when vulnerable use Ki attacks.

I want the most simple system to function before I overly complicate it.

The issue I am currently tackling in my mind is damage calculations. SURE right now I am only dealing with three intensities of attacks... But what IS the damage? Half-strength, Full-Strength, Double-Strength... But that isn't a good risk versus reward.

Chaff enemies are easy enough to think through. They take full damage from all attacks, even off-balance attacks.

---

Wish I had someone to work or brainstorm with :P but that is how things work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 07, 2017, 06:24:20 pm

So next up in my kobold/lizardfolk necropolis dungeon we have:

• A hallway filled with a sonic damage will saving throw trap that requires a puzzle to disarm
• A secret passage sized for small creatures, with medium creatures taking squeezing penalties (-4 AC, -4 to hit) and a greater shadow inside it
• A flooded hallway (difficult terrain) with a spectre guarding it
• A bunch of rooms with loot, including a potions storage room
• A treasury vault that's opened only when you turn four key simultaneously
• A trap the soul trap on a giant sapphire inside this vault, plus a golden egg that explodes in a fireball when you get within 15 ft.

Should be a fun week next week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on January 08, 2017, 11:34:02 pm

I think Exalted would be the best system to do dragonball Z in.  It would take some doing, but it was tailor-made for anime style overpowered demigods throwing buildings at each other and shit.

Speaking of which, I'm playing Asura's Wrath and it's really making me jones for some Exalted.  It's an old PS3 game that basically feels like the lead designer wanted to just make dragonball z and the publisher said "no, it has to be a video game and it can't be dragonball z" and the guy was like "okay i promise i'll make a video game and i won't just make dragonball z" but then he did it anyway.

It's pretty dope actually.  The story and acting are laughable but that's part of the over-the-top charm of it.  It apes anime to the point of missions being "episodes," where levels end on cliffhangers, and you get previews of what's going to happen in the next level (next time on dragonball z!).

The gameplay itself is basically an ugly CGI anime with quick time events, interspersed by rudimentary beat-em-up gameplay that feels like it was added grudgingly.  I would've actually enjoyed it if they skipped that and it was all cutscene.

It is pure exalted though.  You're one of eight demigods, and the other seven betrayed you to steal your daughter's power, you wake up 12,000 years later and you've been made into a mythical demon while the seven demigods use the world as their playground.  Basically God of War vs Berserk, delivered via Dragonball Z.  Pretty fucking dope tbh fam

And basically exactly what an exalted campagin should look like, if you're looking for inspiration.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 09, 2017, 12:31:32 am

I knew how brutal the last part of this book would be, but holy shit. We have to go through an entire siege, mostly by ourselves, against waves upon waves of orcs. No rest. If we even try to rest, we fail. We have to light beacons so others know the town is in danger, and for illumination since it's night. Just hordes of orcs, half-orcs, and hired mercenaries. There's even a part where a dozen of them come at you, while buffed by a Skald who chucks axes at you from high ground. If you threaten the Skald, he casts invisibility and continues to harass the party from safety. While still playing his music. Even playing music, his stealth will be too high for a bunch of level threes to find him.

We have no NPC help. There's only one time an NPC helps, and that's only if you became friends with him earlier in the Adventure Path. Some citizens in town even tried attacking us, blaming us for the siege.

The Paladin/Oracle and the Witch are out of spells, channels, and Lay on Hands, I'm almost out of bombs, the Barbarian is low on Rage, we're only about 2/3rds of the way through the siege at best, and the Gunslinger is fucking ecstatic. Praise be to the Boomstick, because it's all that's keeping our sorry asses alive right now. Well, that and the orcs are too stupid to spread out so they aren't all decimated by shotgun fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on January 09, 2017, 12:55:24 am

What are you playing?  I hope it's a video game,c ause that sounds like a horrible slog in real life.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 01:08:04 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on January 08, 2017, 11:34:02 pm

I think Exalted would be the best system to do dragonball Z in.

You cannot equate power to system functionality.

Exalted combat is closer to Bleach then it is to Dragon Ball Z with its attacks that have "Rule lawyer"-esk effects. That is a anime I could imagine someone bending Exalted around to work with... Heck you could just insert most of the Bleach characters into Exalted pretty elegantly all things considered.

As for the "Best System"... if I had to chose one... I'd chose Mutants and Masterminds and probably change the scale a bit. That is the closest to matching the show...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on January 09, 2017, 01:16:43 am

You're gonna have to do a better job of describing what you mean because I have no idea what you're saying there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 01:20:33 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on January 09, 2017, 01:16:43 am

You're gonna have to do a better job of describing what you mean because I have no idea what you're saying there.

The idea that Exalted is the best system from Dragon Ball Z is entirely based around the fact that Exalted is among the highest "power level" of all RPGs to date... and... That is pretty much it other then mana.

That and other superficial details that don't hold up to scrutiny such as the fact that Exalted has supernatural martial arts... Something Dragon Ball Z doesn't have for the most part (One energy attack does not a supernatural martial art make)

Now one could adapt the combat system... But that is horribly broken until the third game... and the third game does have a system that COULD be used with Withering and killing attacks. Yet that is kind of where it ends.

It doesn't really need much more details. It is kind of just flat out a bad system to use.

---

I'll put it this way... When they suggested using Exalted they were probably like "Ohh Goku is total a Solar or Sidereal"...

But a DBZ characters are more like Terrestrial Blooded with their powers ramped up to the heavens... Yes even Beerus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 09, 2017, 01:28:50 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on January 09, 2017, 12:55:24 am

What are you playing?  I hope it's a video game, cause that sounds like a horrible slog in real life.

Giantslayer. Same one as the 'DC 25 Perception or get coup-de-graced' I complained about before.

Across two sessions, we've cleared an angry mob of citizens, a tavern, four different houses full of orcs, the tower with the Skald and his 'roid-raging minions, and three waves of orcs with the help of the NPC at a gatehouse. In those waves were bombardiers, and we had little room to maneuver from behind the barricades. 10ft radius bombs, too.

Fuckers all have Ferocity, so they take forever to go down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 09, 2017, 07:31:49 am

I'm gonna need a few room themes, specifically about a dozen of them. Any ideas?

I've already used most trade themes (forge, cobbler's, tannery, jeweller's, stonemason's, etc) and this is going to be more of a residential/noble quarter themed area. Immediate thoughts for themes of the rooms are libraries and trophy rooms, but anything else?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 09, 2017, 07:39:18 am

Servan'ts quarters, guard barracks, wine cellars?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 09, 2017, 08:14:01 am

You can look up medieval house types, such as this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_house) or maybe something like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Merchant's_House#Architecture). The architecture of actual medieval houses seems fairly uncomplicated for the most part. Alternatively look up floor plans for 19th century mansions with their trophy rooms and drawing rooms and conservatories and what have you, which are a lot more recognizable to modern architectural sensibilities. Should have a public space and a private space in the back for organization and that kind of thing. Make it not have a wine cellar, but instead an undercroft!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 09, 2017, 09:29:03 am

Some of the rooms I've already used:

2a: Coal Room
2b: The Furnace
2c: Forge Hallway
2d: The Firing Kiln
2e: Jeweller’s Workshop
2f: Stoneworker’s Workshop
4: Training Yard
4a/b: North/South Guard Post
4c: Officer’s Quarters
4d: Guard Barracks
4e: Weaponry
4f: Armory
4g: Prison Watchpost
4h: Prison Cells
4i: Torturer’s Antechamber
4j: Torturer’s Workshop
5a: Alchemist’s Laboratory
5b: Communal Baths
5c: Private Baths
5d: Worker’s Bunks
5e: Children’s Bunks
5f: Communal Privy
5g: Brothel
5i: Mess Hall
5j: Kitchen
5k: Taproom
5l: Trapsmith’s Workshop
6: Temple
7a: Meatlocker
7b: Wine Cellar
7c: Potion Storage
8a: Glassblower’s Workshop
8b: Weaver’s Workshop
8c: Trader’s Shop
8c2: Trader’s Storeroom
8d: High Priest’s Quarters
8e: Acolyte’s Bunks
8f: Tannery
8h: Cobbler’s Workshop
8i: Chandler’s Workshop
8k: Treasury Vault

Still got about a dozen rooms to fill out in the noble's quarter, but I'm starting to run low on ideas. Conservatory is a good one, music themed one might be good too. It's an underground lizardfolk necropolis so greenhouses or gardens are out. Drawing rooms and trophy rooms are good though, library's an obvious given for the upcoming lich fight...

[edit]...laundry, ewery, ballroom, gallery...[/edit]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on January 09, 2017, 09:40:45 am

Lizardfolk... shedding room?

Sauna? Lamp room? Lizards are coldblooded, so they'll want a nice hot place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 09, 2017, 09:43:09 am

Oh, this is still the necropolis! Maybe a Fake Treasure Vault? Some kind of Meeting Hall (great hall or salon), possibly a Sun Room lit by mirrors? Lizardfolk love the sun, and seems like that'd be at a premium underground.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 10:36:09 am

-Shrine
-Greenhouse, either naturally or supernaturally upkept (A pernament daylight spell, for example)
-Observatory with telescope and planetarium.
-Small dairy barn for fresh milk and cream

Some supernatural-esk rooms
-Fairy Hutches (Either as servants or to collect their dust)
-Binding Room (Some outsider or elemental is bound here to do a service)
-Golem Maintenance room

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 09, 2017, 11:21:12 am

Mud bath room!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 09, 2017, 11:39:13 am

Sauna? ;3

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: tonnot98 on January 09, 2017, 02:03:22 pm

Finding inspiration to reboot a campaign from a different angle is hard and exhausting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 09, 2017, 02:04:55 pm

If it's a necropolis... where are the catacombs?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 02:07:06 pm

Man sometimes I swear necropolis and deep crypts only exist in dnd for Necromancers...

The only time there was ever an exception was this one town... but the crypt is absolutely deadly to ward off grave robbers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 09, 2017, 02:10:19 pm

To be fair, crypts and necropoli are kind of the expected enviroment for necromancers. Not like they're going to be hanging out on the chicken farm unless they're weaponising zombie poultry.

The real question is why cremation isn't more popular, what with the aforementioned necromancers. Not like anyone but adventurers and the elite of society will ever afford a resurrection.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 02:25:38 pm

There are a few reasons (Heck even when we in real life believed people could come back as zombies or vampires... we still burried bodies)

Respect for the dead, religious practices, the creation of ghosts... That the ashes of the dead can come back to life as an even worse undead abomination... As well there are plenty of ways to prevent undead without burning them... As well burrying bodies is less expensive then burning them.

That and necromancers aren't that common... it is more of a narrative causality thing that you pretty much never go into a crypt unless undead or a necromancer is in there.

The burning of bodies during a plague or to prevent a plague was considered a nessisary evil... and even Vikings who famosly burned bodies didn't even do that the majority of the time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 09, 2017, 02:29:23 pm

See, the secret is to only perform sky burials. That way you only get skeletal undead and those get only half the HD of zombies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolepgeek on January 09, 2017, 02:35:27 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 09, 2017, 02:10:19 pm

To be fair, crypts and necropoli are kind of the expected enviroment for necromancers. Not like they're going to be hanging out on the chicken farm unless they're weaponising zombie poultry.

The real question is why cremation isn't more popular, what with the aforementioned necromancers. Not like anyone but adventurers and the elite of society will ever afford a resurrection.

Hope. Might be that there isn't a suitable thing to cremate bodies in. Might be that you lose the ability to do X, or if they cremate the bodies the soul won't make it to their gods afterlife.

Although, having necropolises that were guarded by Paladins of the god of the dead to protect them against necromancers would be cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: lemon10 on January 09, 2017, 03:53:52 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 02:25:38 pm

There are a few reasons (Heck even when we in real life believed people could come back as zombies or vampires... we still burried bodies)

Respect for the dead, religious practices, the creation of ghosts... That the ashes of the dead can come back to life as an even worse undead abomination... As well there are plenty of ways to prevent undead without burning them... As well burrying bodies is less expensive then burning them.

That and necromancers aren't that common... it is more of a narrative causality thing that you pretty much never go into a crypt unless undead or a necromancer is in there.

The burning of bodies during a plague or to prevent a plague was considered a nessisary evil... and even Vikings who famosly burned bodies didn't even do that the majority of the time.

Some people did believe in zombies and skeletons, but the thing is that people didn't *actually* come back as zombies. Sure, people believed it sometimes happened, but cities were never actually invaded by the living dead. I bet all it would take is a single major incident in a country before burials stopped happening and mass cremation became the norm, not only legally (as the crown wouldn't like necromancer invasions or lesser necromancers going around causing trouble) but also morally (as people wouldn't want their loved ones to be turned into zombies, and I have little doubt that the Church would not be a fan of it either).

E: The existence of active gods might change things though. The Churches wouldn't care about what funeral rights people want, they would care about the funeral rights that their gods tell them to do, and if they don't want them to be cremated they simply wouldn't cremate them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 09, 2017, 04:08:42 pm

Well yeah, kind of like burning corpses during a plague. So if there was a severe necromancer problem, cremation would be more common - if we assume, however, that necromancy mostly happens on the fringes (and isn't institutionalized and protected) and zombies aren't thought of as a common menace, there's no real reason to specifically counteract necromancy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 09, 2017, 05:03:21 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on January 09, 2017, 02:29:23 pm

See, the secret is to only perform sky burials. That way you only get skeletal undead and those get only half the HD of zombies.

Funny you say that. I am actually working a setting at the moment in which sky burials are very important. If the vultures don't eat you when you die, enough life clings to you in the flesh you'll rise again as a zombie, but skeletons don't arise naturally.
One of the issues of the game is that a plague/curse is killing people and the vultures won't eat the plague victims, so there's a zombie problem occurring.

Quote from: Neonivek on January 09, 2017, 02:25:38 pm

There are a few reasons (Heck even when we in real life believed people could come back as zombies or vampires... we still burried bodies)

Respect for the dead, religious practices, the creation of ghosts... That the ashes of the dead can come back to life as an even worse undead abomination... As well there are plenty of ways to prevent undead without burning them... As well burrying bodies is less expensive then burning them.

That and necromancers aren't that common... it is more of a narrative causality thing that you pretty much never go into a crypt unless undead or a necromancer is in there.

The burning of bodies during a plague or to prevent a plague was considered a nessisary evil... and even Vikings who famosly burned bodies didn't even do that the majority of the time.

I think it's safe to say undead are probably still a lot more common in typical d&d settings than real life. The occasional vampire scare can't match up to actually having a genuine risk of vampires.
In fact, ninja'd by lemon on all the main points I was going to say.

Considering the hatred a lot of gods have against necromancy, it wouldn't surprise me if many of them would mandate cremation to inhibit innocent people's corpses being made victims of necromancy, and whatever soul shenanigans might be done with those to pluck the soul from the grasp of the gods.

Also, why would an adventurer go into a crypt if there wasn't a necromancer, assuming they aren't just tomb robbers? Unless you're planning to pillage either the bodies or the burial goods, there's not a huge amount of reason to go down there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 09, 2017, 05:12:18 pm

I recently listened to a radio show about religion and medicine, and it came up how in parts West Africa the recent outbreak of ebola was made more severe by the burial rites of the populace. According to the doctor, ebola is at it's most contagious just around the point of death, and the wake or burial included ritual cleaning of the body by family and friends, causing lots of opportunities for the disease to spread further. A lot of trouble with how badly the epidemic became came from how they had trouble making people forsake this ritual and instead just burn their bodies - it is their ritualised way of saying farewell to their loved ones, after all, and just burning them meant they neither got to say good bye properly and that the bodies where still "unclean".

I wonder if the outbreak had any permanent change on their rites, or if they went back to the same kind of cleaning when the epidemic was over.

I mean, of course an epidemic is not necessarily like an undead invasion. But the idea is sort of the same.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 09, 2017, 05:15:06 pm

Well, all my players needed was a map given to them by a mysterious old man and a warning that it contained great danger and even greater wealth.

Seriously, adventurers and common sense are oil and water.

Thanks so much for the ideas! I'm definitely using these, if not in the current dungeon than later in a different one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 09, 2017, 07:46:52 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 09, 2017, 05:03:21 pm

Also, why would an adventurer go into a crypt if there wasn't a necromancer, assuming they aren't just tomb robbers? Unless you're planning to pillage either the bodies or the burial goods, there's not a huge amount of reason to go down there.

Because they are adventurers and it is a place. There's no room for reason when there are people to loot and treasures to kill.

Hell, there's a Paladin over there taking the pants off a corpse as we speak.

In other news, it turns out this siege has so little time for rest that the book says we can't even take items off of the Orcs we kill. Apparently it's a very loot-light adventure. Fuck me that's going to suck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 12, 2017, 01:04:11 pm

Demons The Possessed campaign:  We split the party *again*, 2 and 2.  At 1 and 2 morality, Jen and Brian (me) nailed a farmer in his basement because he was annoying (but not worth the complication of a murder).  But then we found out he had a wife, so naturally we needed to tidy up all the loose ends.  For some reason Brian went into the basement first, and the farmer caught him in the back with an axe.  Took juuuust enough damage to collapse and start bleeding out, while Jen shot the farmer dead with her darts.  (The darts contain Sean's deadly poisonous blood...  Pride is a weird vice)

Then we misread the stabilization rules... again, LOL.  So we were pretty sure I was dead, but this morning I checked again.  The section's literally self contradictory but, yeah, apparently my fellow demonically-possessed psycho did manage to bind the wound.  It's probably going to get infected as all hell and they'll have to drag me back to the road, but woo!  I didn't want to lose that character.
In our defense, it was like 4AM and the wine was running dry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 13, 2017, 05:17:16 pm

I had to play a game of chess for my character's soul.  It wasn't sure exactly how...
First thought was an in-game skillcheck, which would have been masterfully easy, but no.
Secondly I expected a game of chess between our Fallen London characters.  Which...  I *think* the odds would be for me, but horribly slightly.

And, to be fair, I did make a solid argument by the rules that my character was very much alive.

No...  I had to play Chess against the DM.  And I don't play chess much.  Occasional games against my father, which are... Mm.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I lucked out around turn 15 and got a queen ahead.  From that point on I failed to utilize like half of my units, but performed a couple of decent forks.  It was... intense.  I held my breath for much of it, even after I secured my victory piece-wise (and about 5 turns later, made it official)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 13, 2017, 09:58:47 pm

Well, after an encounter with a Greater Shadow in a corridor sized for small creatures, a room with three Spectres inside, and another Greater Shadow in a flooded underwater secret tunnel, our party's Samurai officially spat the dummy and announced he wants to dump this dungeon for something that isn't full of incorporeal creatures. Hehehe, mission accomplished!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Twinwolf on January 13, 2017, 10:03:53 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 13, 2017, 05:17:16 pm

I had to play a game of chess for my character's soul.  It wasn't sure exactly how...
First thought was an in-game skillcheck, which would have been masterfully easy, but no.
Secondly I expected a game of chess between our Fallen London characters.  Which...  I *think* the odds would be for me, but horribly slightly.

And, to be fair, I did make a solid argument by the rules that my character was very much alive.

No...  I had to play Chess against the DM.  And I don't play chess much.  Occasional games against my father, which are... Mm.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I lucked out around turn 15 and got a queen ahead.  From that point on I failed to utilize like half of my units, but performed a couple of decent forks.  It was... intense.  I held my breath for much of it, even after I secured my victory piece-wise (and about 5 turns later, made it official)

Well, that's certainly a way to enforce method acting for the roleplay part :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 13, 2017, 10:12:46 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 13, 2017, 10:06:54 pm

I'm curious, in 5e just how unfeasible is a melee wizard?

If I ever play a game I'm sorely tempted to give it a go for laughs.

There are definitely classes MADE to be able to do that better... Including Warlocks who have an entire specialization dedicated to going melee that is further expanded later on for some extra spells that go with that combination.

But a melee wizard is definitely more feasible than, say... 3.5 or Pathfinder (without exploits)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 13, 2017, 10:43:14 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 13, 2017, 10:06:54 pm

I'm curious, in 5e just how unfeasible is a melee wizard?

If I ever play a game I'm sorely tempted to give it a go for laughs.

WOTC ressurected a kit from the 2e Book of Elves called Bladesinger which is pretty cool if you're an elf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 14, 2017, 07:04:56 am

Quote from: greatorder on January 13, 2017, 10:06:54 pm

I'm curious, in 5e just how unfeasible is a melee wizard?

If I ever play a game I'm sorely tempted to give it a go for laughs.

Mountain dwarves get medium armor proficiency from the get-go, that'd be pretty funny on a wizard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on January 14, 2017, 09:32:32 am

The bladesinger subclass in SCAG lets you become a melee combat while you can keep it up, but when it's down you;re as squishy as ever. A bit of multiclassing can help, but if you want straight wizard you're stuck with the squishiness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 14, 2017, 09:44:11 am

I suppose if you go with an elf you start with the elven weapon proficiency. You may not be able to take a hit, but at least you could shank someone.
Use a finesse weapon and pump dex to get some AC.

I don't remember - in 5e, is it just armour you're not proficient in that ruins your spellcasting, or is it all armour?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on January 14, 2017, 09:53:13 am

Just armour you aren't proficient in, so you can take mountain dwarf and get medium armour if you're willing to neglect dex.

But yeah, ultimately the spells and subclass in SCAG would be your friends here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 14, 2017, 01:17:54 pm

Oh, yeah, mountain dwarves.
So you could have medium armour and a battleaxe or summin' without needing to spend any feats on it. That isn't bad.

Quote from: sjm9876 on January 14, 2017, 09:53:13 am

Just armour you aren't proficient in, so you can take mountain dwarf and get medium armour if you're willing to neglect dex.

But yeah, ultimately the spells and subclass in SCAG would be your friends here.

Is SCAG something free, or a splatbook?
Haven't actually heard of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on January 14, 2017, 01:38:17 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 14, 2017, 01:17:54 pm

Is SCAG something free, or a splatbook?

Sword Coast's Adventurer Guide. It's a book. That said, some of the class options in that book also appeared in the Unearthed Arcanas, which are free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on January 14, 2017, 01:51:43 pm

Aye.

If you were willing to sacrifice some points for a couple feats you could grab moderately armoured and war caster instead of mountain dwarf, which'd let you use shields as well and cast somatic spells even with weapons & shields, as well as a few other nice bonuses. Increase survivability a nice amount.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2017, 12:02:11 am

Siege ended, after hours of non-stop combat. Picking up where we last left off, and adding in some missing bits:

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 09, 2017, 01:28:50 am

Across two sessions, we've cleared an angry mob of citizens, a tavern, the smithy, four different houses full of orcs, the town park (which was set ablaze so we couldn't see and had to make checks to avoid suffocating), the tower with the Skald and his 'roid-raging minions, and three waves of orcs with the help of the NPC at a gatehouse. In those waves were bombardiers, and we had little room to maneuver from behind the barricades. 10ft radius bombs, too.

Fuckers all have Ferocity, so they take forever to go down.

We just finished defending the gatehouse, when the captain of the town guard tells us to go take out the catapult outside of town. According to the book, one person is supposed to go alone while the town guard distracts the orcish army. Supposedly there are about 80 orcs or so, and the militia can't distract them all. If anyone is spotted on the way to or from the catapults, they will draw the entire army onto the players. It is a fail-state in the book, apparently.

Of course, you never split the party, so the two Paladins and the Barbarian tagged along, and got spotted. Those of us who were not spotted got the chance to continue on to the catapult. Apparently each round after being spotted, several d6 of orcs appear to enter the fight against the players until the players are dead or manage to escape.

So we had to split the game into two ongoing encounters, with the spotted holding off orcs while us saboteurs disable the catapult. We got there and sneaked past the cannon crew easily enough. There we found out that there's two ways to disable the catapult. The first is to simply sabotage it so that it breaks, by having the chain that pulls back the basket fall off, creating a bit of breathing time for the militia, but not being a permanent solution. The other option is to blow the ammunition up. Doing this takes 1d4 rounds of using Disable Device, and giving you up to 1d4 rounds to run more than 40 feet away. We lit the fuse.

Rolled a 1. We had no choice but to run, since we can't clear 40ft and still be in stealth. We caught up to the martials holding off the orcs, and were fairly wounded at this point. Except the orc army knew we were all there now, and the book considers this a fail state. The orc army is supposed to come down and kill us all, and the city stills falls even though we took out the catapult. Fuck that.

We ran to a natural choke-point on the map, in a small canyon that narrowed to only 10 feet wide at one point. The martials stood next to our shotgunner as he blasted away a 30ft cone of orcs each round. We were all spent at that point, with no spells, bombs, Lay on Hands, and other resource-driven crap at this point. All we had was our metal, gunpowder, and a refusal to accept a bullshit adventure.

Then a few waves in, about forty orcs laying dead, the DM threw us a bone and had about a half-dozen militia come in and sweep the orcs. Anti-climactic, but a godsend. According to the book, if you are spotted, the militia leave you to die.

In the end a Paladin lay dead, another mortally wounded, the Barbarian exhausted, the shotgunner barely holding consciousness, and me standing at the top of the rocks praying that none of the orcs realizing they can climb.

Yet the adventure didn't stop here. We haven't earned any rest, even though we went way the fuck off the rails. There were still a handful of orcs, giants, and trolls in town. The water supply was being assaulted by a cave giant, who gets stronger as you complete more side-objectives. At the end, when fully powered, the giant deals more than 30 damage per hit. By the way, we're still level three. Apparently if you didn't do well earlier, you fight the giant with his handlers trying to hold him down, which severely limits his strength. In addition, his lack of handlers somehow grants him nine levels of Barbarian.

There was more minor combat after this, and some kind of water troll that's basically immortal so long as it's wet. Did I mention we're in the well?

So yeah, as I said before, fuck Giantslayer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2017, 12:16:03 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2017, 12:02:11 am

By the way, we're still level three.

What did you do to your DM to make them hate you so much that they'd run this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2017, 12:18:56 am

It gets better later, I've been told. I don't know when this 'later' is though. I'm guessing it's when the adventure is finally over.

But the beginning book is just awful. Monster of a meat grinder.

He wants to run it because he's never been able to complete it before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2017, 12:21:12 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2017, 12:18:56 am

It gets better later, I've been told.

Is it worth it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on January 15, 2017, 12:22:40 am

Whoever wrote that campaign must expect every player to read the whole book before starting and metagame like a bastard, because that's the only way someone could be expected to complete it without dying horribly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2017, 12:23:23 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 15, 2017, 12:21:12 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on January 15, 2017, 12:18:56 am

It gets better later, I've been told.

Is it worth it?

I have serious, serious doubts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on January 15, 2017, 02:41:21 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on January 14, 2017, 01:51:43 pm

Aye.

If you were willing to sacrifice some points for a couple feats you could grab moderately armoured and war caster instead of mountain dwarf, which'd let you use shields as well and cast somatic spells even with weapons & shields, as well as a few other nice bonuses. Increase survivability a nice amount.

I mean, not counting war caster, that's two feats to start just to get what mountain dwarf has at level 1 plus 2 more AC. And even with Variant Human, you'll be stuck with just light armor until level 4. And if you want to use melee weapons, you're stuck with simple weapons, whereas the dwarf has access to battleaxes and warhammers (granted, weapon attacks lose effectiveness past level 5 unless you have Extra Attack (which, among Wizards, only Bladesingers get, and they can't use medium armor and/or shields without interfering with Bladesong anyway), have some sort of damage boosting ability, or are using one of the weapon-based cantrips from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide).

And at level 4, the mountain dwarf could pick up Heavily Armored to be able to have as much AC as someone with the maximum Dexterity modifier holding a shield, granted that the armor is more expensive and they'll have disadvantage on Stealth checks. And wearing half plate with a shield can net you 1 more AC than just full plate. If need be, you can still pick up Moderately Armored and still come out on top. The only reason I could see buying up both Lightly Armored and Moderately Armored is if you want to boost Dexterity and have no use for Strength, which I guess is fair enough.

Quote from: greatorder on January 13, 2017, 10:06:54 pm

I'm curious, in 5e just how unfeasible is a melee wizard?

If I ever play a game I'm sorely tempted to give it a go for laughs.

As to the question of what subclass to use for a melee wizard, I'd say Abjuration is pretty good. It lets you effectively have the hitpoints of a more combat-focused class, and you get to replenish those pseudo-hitpoints whenever you cast an Abjuration spell, such as the very useful Shield spell (+5 AC for the rest of the round; triggers if an attack would hit you, which you can block if you needed no more than 5 more AC, and completely negates Magic Missile). Later on you become very good at just noping enemy spellcasters with counterspell, or just being able to take a spell head-on.

For damage, you'll want to pick up one or two of the Sword Coast weapon cantrips eventually.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 15, 2017, 09:41:20 pm

Party camped out for the night and I rolled for an ambush on a d100

Got a 100, and I thought of the worst possible thing to ambush them..

... So I sent the final boss after them, knowing full well he won't die here and the party had some cronies to deal with before him.

I didn't use all of his abilities but it got nasty. Knew he would be ok as a final boss when I used al of his attacks.

Well, the party gets to the dungeon and I FORGOT ABOUT THEIR FLYING SLEIGH and they end up skipping the entire dungeon, and upon seeing enemies, it was then I realized I messed up as DM.

CR14 encounter with lots of environmental stuff to help. Wizard and cleric cast fireball using scrolls they prepared on the trip. They find the treasure room first and get some gear to ready for the boss.

I knew if I didn't send the party in there without some problems, it would go exactly the same as before...

... So I had them set off a fireball trap, which almost kills half of the party and the boss, who's in this room with his coffin, breaks out and attacks the party, who throws a bunch of daggers in a cone at them, and drops a party member to unconscious.

He then moves to a party member who teleported away and knocks him out because low HP and every attack hit.

Cleric goes on overtime and heals everyone and does so every round when someone goes down.

I made a mistake by having him take double damage from one of the party member due to an item that they had on them. That party member was a monk and they pretty much dropped him by at least 50hp per turn MINIMUM.

He drops his greatest power and the party has two more droppers and he goes invisible. The cleric does her job again and the boss is revealed by the wizard who casts faerie fire and they proceed to kick the snot out of him.

Party goes down save the cleric and the monk as he punches them all unconcious and tries to flee. Monk gives chase and throws his only weapon to kill the guy AND CRITS. Vampire dies screaming as he falls off the balcony and the party goes over the edge to see and are greeted with every enemy plus about several hundred or more  they left behind inside the castle (because they skipped it) and watched as they leapt off a 10mile high castle on a mountain and try to escape, landing on bodies of their own and fleeing.

So because the party skipped dealing with the apparent breakout of vampires, now they have an epidemic of vampires plaguing the world now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 16, 2017, 06:16:52 am

Yeah, it's good that a DM considers a player's actions and the consequences thereof. I know that if my players do decide to pull out of the necropolis they're exploring, it's not gonna end well for the world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 16, 2017, 11:20:15 am

I'm now starting curse of Strahd, and I'm hoping that I don't screw up again. I didn't get the chance to read the whole thing and... Well... It didn't go as well as I had hoped

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: miauw62 on January 16, 2017, 12:17:46 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on January 15, 2017, 09:41:20 pm

Vampire dies screaming as he falls off the balcony

JOJOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on January 16, 2017, 02:12:34 pm

Quote from: miauw62 on January 16, 2017, 12:17:46 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on January 15, 2017, 09:41:20 pm

Vampire dies screaming as he falls off the balcony

JOJOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Personally, I got suspicious with "the boss, who's in this room with his coffin, breaks out and attacks the party, who throws a bunch of daggers in a cone at them".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 16, 2017, 04:05:13 pm

Quote from: Oneir on January 16, 2017, 02:12:34 pm

Quote from: miauw62 on January 16, 2017, 12:17:46 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on January 15, 2017, 09:41:20 pm

Vampire dies screaming as he falls off the balcony

JOJOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Personally, I got suspicious with "the boss, who's in this room with his coffin, breaks out and attacks the party, who throws a bunch of daggers in a cone at them".

I already said a few posts earlier this campaign was based on the first arc of Jojo.

And yes, I took the knives thing from part 3, but its too cool to pass up

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: miauw62 on January 16, 2017, 04:18:55 pm

I dont thoroughly read every post here :P

Still pretty cool, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on January 16, 2017, 08:24:27 pm

Yeah, no offense meant at all. I've been reading Jojo recently, and I keep thinking it'd make an interesting RPG. (Also Kill Six Billion Demons which has a PbtA RPG, and some explicit Araki influences.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2017, 03:40:51 am

Can't go wrong with Blade references if you're doing vampire themes. Either that, or the Count from Sesame Street.

Pathfinder encounter idea: Party hears an alarm in the distance, then a few rounds later there's an abandoned, heavily damaged airship that drifts past overhead.

I want to have a bunch of skill challenges with success being the acquisition of an airship for party transport. Any ideas for the skills that should be involved?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 17, 2017, 03:54:00 am

Not sure how pathfinder's default skills are involved, or what method of levitation the airship would be using-- Both are very important to answering your question.

If magically induced levitation is the mechanism behind the airship (and not lighter than air gas, like steampunk airships would use), then detect magic would GO FREAKING CRAZY when the airship went overhead.  If lighter than air, you would need something like a strong alchemy skill to identify the gas inside the main lift nacelle, and some kind of engineering skill to identify and operate the vehicle, if not assess and repair any damage. I have only played a beginner's "canned" scenario for Pathfinder, which had stock characters-- so I have no idea what skills/feats you would need for a machinist/engineer.  Magical levitation would be more in-character for pathfinder, IMO, which would then be tansmutation and enchantment skills. The magical aura of such a craft would be so outrageous that every spell caster for miles would sense it.

One possible explanation for the "crashing" would be the attempt at creating a "stealth" levitation ship; One that tries to hide the magic aura of the craft so that spell casters dont all go "OMG! MY BRAINS! I CAN FEEL IT IN MY BRAINS!" as it flies overhead. The resulting interaction of the Abjuration effects to dispel the aura could be causing havok with the transmutation nature of the levitation core of the vehicle, causing it to behave unpredictably.  (A fun consequence of this conflict of powerful magics, is that attempts by the party to nullify the random effects of the transmutation based levitation core, is chaotic application of abjuration effects against the party.) This could be a recurring plot device of using the airship, should the new crew decide to try to find a way to make the stealth system work.

There's also more interesting consequences to a "failing" airship powered by absurd transmutation magic enchantments-- eg, consequences for failure of correcting the problem that is causing it to crash.  Wild transformation effects going off everywhere would be lots of *FUN*, and would explain handily why the existing crew bailed the shit out, and let it go far away from where they are now. :P  Also, increases the chances of interesting loot on the airship.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 17, 2017, 04:07:52 am

Quote

then detect magic would GO FREAKING CRAZY when the airship went overhead.

Oddly enough it wouldn't. In fact if it levitated due to some sort of magical engine... It wouldn't even go off if the person was on the levitating ship.

Detect magic has a few rather stark limitations.

Another limitation is that Detect magic only has a range of 60ft. So even if the entire ship radiated magic... if it was 61ft away from the person using detect magic... it wouldn't detect magic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2017, 04:13:31 am

Okay, you win major points for the above. I absolutely love the idea of a malfunctioning experimental stealth airship producing a variety of magical or alchemical randomness. I was originally going to simply have it be a badly damaged war vessel that the party gains ownership of through 'maritime' salvage law, but your idea not only solves the problem of why it's abandoned, it also sets up a great backstory to have conflict arise in the future and offer interesting ideas for 'random encounters' whilst travelling that aren't flying monster based scenarios.

For propulsion and lift, probably handwavium magitech powered by a combination of harnessed lightning power (two party members regularly prepare lightning damage spells or effects) so that it can be a way of recharging or resetting the flight mechanism, along with an energy core containing a harnessed conduit to the elemental plane of air, or a pair of conduits to the elemental plane of fire and water to produce steam power.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 17, 2017, 04:59:37 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 17, 2017, 04:07:52 am

Quote

then detect magic would GO FREAKING CRAZY when the airship went overhead.

Oddly enough it wouldn't. In fact if it levitated due to some sort of magical engine... It wouldn't even go off if the person was on the levitating ship.

Detect magic has a few rather stark limitations.

Another limitation is that Detect magic only has a range of 60ft. So even if the entire ship radiated magic... if it was 61ft away from the person using detect magic... it wouldn't detect magic.

I have seen some pretty big whoppers of rule relaxations for the sake of plot. In this case, the ship is a plot device, with two competing McGuffins on board. Hilarity can ensue from "ingenious" misuse of these systems.  (Modification of the abjuration based negating system to negate enemy magic, for instance, but causing the ship to crash as a consequence, etc.) If nothing else, having spells go apeshit wrong from having the thing nearby can make up for the lack of detect magic being effective.

One 'loophole' might be that the 60ft restriction is the distance the caster can feel for an aura-- but if the aura is HUGE, then the aura will intersect the caster's sensing area (allowing them to detect it). The caster wont be able to identify the source, but will go "OMG! Huge magic thing THAT way!"-- or, if right on top of it  "OMG! ITS EVERYWHERE!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2017, 06:23:10 am

Yeah, there's precisely zero rules written to say how airships function as a magic item (Caster Level, feats required, spells required etc.) so it's all at the DM's discretion. Plus there's weirdness in any magic world. Who's to say the way the airship functions isn't as a completely mundane ship that just so happens to be constructed of wood that's lighter than air?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 17, 2017, 06:27:59 am

Or the bones of long dead gods or humongous titan dragons from beyond the plane of mortals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 17, 2017, 06:41:29 am

Actually it's just a regular boat, but when we launched it, it missed the water. So it seems to be an airship now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 17, 2017, 07:39:39 am

A funny lampshade nod, would be to have "other adventurer parties" be random encounters when hunting down the crashing/crashed airship, because of the absurd size of the aura in question.  That's a bit like putting a pretty virgin near a vampire den, or a magnet near steel wool.

Followed up by the inevitable rumors that your party gaining possession of the item would cause-- SOMEBODY spent a LOT to make that stealth ship, and if the party gets it working, they are going to want it back...

There's a lot of story potential for this, if you spin it right.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2017, 08:32:03 am

Yep, totally stealing this idea of the party finding a damaged top-secret prototype stealth airship.

Enemy evil nation lost this airship during testing.

Why?

Because it worked, obviously.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 17, 2017, 10:48:56 am

I have a potential plot arc for you--

Spoiler:  rough and terrible basic plot arc that you can use, modify or discard at your leisure (click to show/hide)

The stealth ship is of Djinn origin, created as a test platform (and VERY VERY expensive, as it is made from transmuted water ice from where the plane of air meets up with the plane of water-- solid matter being exceedingly rare in the plane of air) to test a prototype system to hide a planned invasion. (population crowding, coupled with competition from migrants from the material plane inhabiting the metal spheres for what material provisions the plane of air has available, has driven a group of djinn to seek a chunk of the material plane for their own permanent residence, and they dont care to be discovered until their main ship is ready), before the experimental protection system on board is tested in the "Target environment".  Hilariously banish themselves to avoid other hellish consequences as the ship malfunctions. Wish to avoid being detected *AT ALL COSTS*, and utilize captured material plane race host bodies from the populations inhabiting the plane of air to use as disguises. Have installed "facilities" for themselves in this incognito form. (this is why the test ship is more or less human operable, and furniture/appliances are suited for typical humanoid races-- includes such useful contrivances as a magical equivalent of a sickbay, to maintain their host bodies' health with. All references to the origin of the vessel are purposefully missing, as they are not messing around here. No divine, auran, or ignan script is present on board, and it is conspicuously decorated in material plane styles. After banishing themselves, the dazed, confused, and amnesiac victims of their possession awake on a crashing ship they have no idea how to pilot, with all manner of magical chaos going on around them, and they make a break for it, and jump as soon as they see something they think they can survive landing on below.

Their ultimate plan is, as stated, to claim a fair chunk of the material plane for their own purposes-- and have constructed a floating cityship of colossal size in the elemental plane of air over the course of a very protracted period of time, using very high mastery of air magic and transmutation of the most plentiful source of physical material in their plane, water collected near the border with the plane of water.  Given the lack of resources, strong competition from the shorter lived (and more fecund) material plane dwellers infesting the plane of air, they are living a rather claustrophobic, tightly packed existence on their (very elaborate) flying city, which they intend to displace wholesale to the material plane, and set up residence, in obscurity high up in the sky, collecting the very valuable raw materials of the material plane, and transporting them back to the plane of air, to enable them to grow as a dominant power there.

Having very little experience with the material plane, and not being nearly as skillful with abjuration type enchantments, their test platform is seriously flawed-- and malfunctions spectacularly, forcing their self-banishment, and abandonment of their material plane host bodies, back to the plane of air, where they report the failure.

Since this is part of a vanguard that precedes an invasion, there are other agents already in the material plane using host bodies, serving as intelligence agents, who keep the cityship informed, and are charged with damage control concerning the failure. (exposure of the plan before they are able to send a very large invasion force undetected would result in organized resistance to the plan, which the djinn simply dont have the material resources to engage in. Their's is a stealth victory scenario where they appear in-force, suddenly, after having been silently utilizing the material plane for an extended period after setting up secret bases of operation to facilitate their plan.)

Needless to say, it all goes horribly wrong with their test vehicle, and it crash lands.  The accomodations on board are practically just damned perfect for professional adventurers, because it has everything an adventurer could possibly want on board-- but is INSANELY magical, and has a high magical proficiency cost associated with unlocking some of the more advanced features of the vessel (such as mass matter transmutation based resupply of raw materials/reagents from common feedstocks (water, etc), use of the healing chamber, living quarters, etc)  In terms of size, it has the footprint of a large yaht.  It is designed to effortlessly dock with the city ship, and has a means to corporeally transfer itself and its occupants to and from the elemental plane of air (when functioning properly, and controlled by a very competent user of elemental air magics)  This makes it a perfect "counter-infiltration" device for thwarting the diabolical evil plan.

Again, many of the systems on board are not operating "properly" due to not being native to the material plane, and not created by minds shaped by the material plane, and its rules.

Basic outline of plot arc:

Ship starts crashing- party detects massively powerful magical artifact that overwhelms any of their magic users' abilities to sense magical items.

Party begins searching for the source of the anomaly, runs into random encounters with treasure hunters and adventurers, who are likewise attracted to the anomaly.

Party gains access to the crashed ship, gets assaulted by all the insane magic going on onboard.  Either succeeds or fails to appropriate the vessel, and get it working.

Plot arc (A):
Party gets the ship working--

The party gets the ship working, and goes on a wildly successful treasure/adventure hunting campaign, given that they have an all expenses paid form of rapid transit, resource storage, free resurrection/healing services (if required feats are met), and ready access to an inexhaustible supply of magical reagents (if required feats are met)-- If they get the stealth system working, it functions as a very safe place to stash loot. Party gains notoriety, and at DM's discretion, malfunctions of the vessel happen, causing chaos at inopportune times-- and the forces of the invasion track their exploits, and predict their next destination.

The vanguard forces attempt to re-appropriate the vessel from the party after the party reaches appropriate skill level. (Since these are djinn in disguise, you do the math on that.) This leads to conflict, which ultimately reveals djinn involvement.

Party explores the djinn connection. Discover hidden "displacement drive" functionality.

Arc (A1)
Party decides to assault Djinn cityship, and stop invasion. Ship permanently docks with cityship, and is lost when the cityship is destroyed. (Djinn can fly, so the destruction of the cityship is just a major inconvenience to them, rather than totally destructive to their political group. The precious raw material of the cityship is not lost, just not in a useful whole anymore. Causes a many-century long hold on any invasion plans while they rebuild their citadel.)

Arc (A2)
Party decides to assault Djinn Cityship after more completely studying their stealth ship's docking systems, finds way to prevent the ship from being remote controlled upon docking. (this is what causes the permanent docking in A1, as the docking moors refuse to disengage, as a launch is not authorized by the central govt, and all the controls are locked out.) Makes escape on the stealth ship, retains possession.

Arc (A3)
Party decides the Djinn invasion is not their concern, dont want to risk it. Try to keep the stealth ship-- Increasing resistence from vanguard forces either ultimately overwhelm the party, or destroy the stealth ship.

Arc (A4)
Party decide that they dont want to keep the stealth ship, but also dont want to go unravel evil master plans at enslaving a good chunk of the material plane. Decide instead to either destroy the stealth ship, or rig it to return to the city ship armed to self-destruct, or otherwise cause magical calamities upon docking when they are not aboard. This severely damages the cityship, but does not destroy it. Pisses off the djinn, who then hunt them relentlessly. If they choose to just destroy the ship, still hunted for "knowing too much", which jeopardizes the plan. Ultimately have to get to the material plane of air ANOTHER way, find a way to infiltrate the city ship, and stop the invasion force WITHOUT the aid of the stealth ship. Endlessly random encountered until they do.

Arc (B)

Party fail to salvage the stealth ship.

Vanguard forces observe and monitor them, to see if they learned anything about their evil master plan. Various hints are offered, until convergence with Arc (A4), "Hard way" option is possible, then proceeds that direction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 17, 2017, 01:16:58 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 17, 2017, 06:23:10 am

Yeah, there's precisely zero rules written to say how airships function as a magic item (Caster Level, feats required, spells required etc.) so it's all at the DM's discretion. Plus there's weirdness in any magic world. Who's to say the way the airship functions isn't as a completely mundane ship that just so happens to be constructed of wood that's lighter than air?

Yep the rules also have that written.

For example though to US Elementals and Outsiders are "Magical"... They however aren't and do not show up with detect magic (unless they have been summoned somehow)

---

Also if you guys are so bent on making it so normally these airships detect as magical from exceptionally far distances by people with detect magic (A cantrip that can be cast non-stop I should add).

Just have it so whatever method the ship uses to fly radiates downward somehow. Like it somehow does it through casting dozens of wind spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on January 17, 2017, 08:09:36 pm

If it's a military (or some other big, nasty organization with big, nasty opposition) ship, I'd be more concerned with military-grade magic detection. You can't cast it non-stop, but if you own a castle and are (reasonably) concerned with invisible, flying ships, you can probably spring for a higher grade of divination.

I'm not super familiar with the setting, but "lightning-powered air ship" sounds like something from Eberron. I'm not sure how much they get into the mechanics of that beyond X gold and Y ft/round, but you might find some useful things there. I think the maguffin there is using bound elementals to power their magipunk air ships and trains and the like. That could give you all kinds of conjuration effects if you wanted to go that way -- like subduing minor elementals to restore various subsystems.

You could honestly lift a lot of Star Trek style malfunction shenanigans, however the rest of the ship works. That might give you stuff for the less magical/mechanical party members.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 17, 2017, 08:52:57 pm

Quote from: Oneir on January 16, 2017, 08:24:27 pm

Yeah, no offense meant at all. I've been reading Jojo recently, and I keep thinking it'd make an interesting RPG. (Also Kill Six Billion Demons which has a PbtA RPG, and some explicit Araki influences.)

None taken. Everything gets lost in here, and most of you folks just do as I do and post and not read the others

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 18, 2017, 12:03:37 am

Quote from: wierd on January 17, 2017, 10:48:56 am

I have a potential plot arc for you--

Spoiler:  rough and terrible basic plot arc that you can use, modify or discard at your leisure (click to show/hide)

The stealth ship is of Djinn origin, created as a test platform (and VERY VERY expensive, as it is made from transmuted water ice from where the plane of air meets up with the plane of water-- solid matter being exceedingly rare in the plane of air) to test a prototype system to hide a planned invasion. (population crowding, coupled with competition from migrants from the material plane inhabiting the metal spheres for what material provisions the plane of air has available, has driven a group of djinn to seek a chunk of the material plane for their own permanent residence, and they dont care to be discovered until their main ship is ready), before the experimental protection system on board is tested in the "Target environment".  Hilariously banish themselves to avoid other hellish consequences as the ship malfunctions. Wish to avoid being detected *AT ALL COSTS*, and utilize captured material plane race host bodies from the populations inhabiting the plane of air to use as disguises. Have installed "facilities" for themselves in this incognito form. (this is why the test ship is more or less human operable, and furniture/appliances are suited for typical humanoid races-- includes such useful contrivances as a magical equivalent of a sickbay, to maintain their host bodies' health with. All references to the origin of the vessel are purposefully missing, as they are not messing around here. No divine, auran, or ignan script is present on board, and it is conspicuously decorated in material plane styles. After banishing themselves, the dazed, confused, and amnesiac victims of their possession awake on a crashing ship they have no idea how to pilot, with all manner of magical chaos going on around them, and they make a break for it, and jump as soon as they see something they think they can survive landing on below.

Their ultimate plan is, as stated, to claim a fair chunk of the material plane for their own purposes-- and have constructed a floating cityship of colossal size in the elemental plane of air over the course of a very protracted period of time, using very high mastery of air magic and transmutation of the most plentiful source of physical material in their plane, water collected near the border with the plane of water.  Given the lack of resources, strong competition from the shorter lived (and more fecund) material plane dwellers infesting the plane of air, they are living a rather claustrophobic, tightly packed existence on their (very elaborate) flying city, which they intend to displace wholesale to the material plane, and set up residence, in obscurity high up in the sky, collecting the very valuable raw materials of the material plane, and transporting them back to the plane of air, to enable them to grow as a dominant power there.

Having very little experience with the material plane, and not being nearly as skillful with abjuration type enchantments, their test platform is seriously flawed-- and malfunctions spectacularly, forcing their self-banishment, and abandonment of their material plane host bodies, back to the plane of air, where they report the failure.

Since this is part of a vanguard that precedes an invasion, there are other agents already in the material plane using host bodies, serving as intelligence agents, who keep the cityship informed, and are charged with damage control concerning the failure. (exposure of the plan before they are able to send a very large invasion force undetected would result in organized resistance to the plan, which the djinn simply dont have the material resources to engage in. Their's is a stealth victory scenario where they appear in-force, suddenly, after having been silently utilizing the material plane for an extended period after setting up secret bases of operation to facilitate their plan.)

Needless to say, it all goes horribly wrong with their test vehicle, and it crash lands.  The accomodations on board are practically just damned perfect for professional adventurers, because it has everything an adventurer could possibly want on board-- but is INSANELY magical, and has a high magical proficiency cost associated with unlocking some of the more advanced features of the vessel (such as mass matter transmutation based resupply of raw materials/reagents from common feedstocks (water, etc), use of the healing chamber, living quarters, etc)  In terms of size, it has the footprint of a large yaht.  It is designed to effortlessly dock with the city ship, and has a means to corporeally transfer itself and its occupants to and from the elemental plane of air (when functioning properly, and controlled by a very competent user of elemental air magics)  This makes it a perfect "counter-infiltration" device for thwarting the diabolical evil plan.

Again, many of the systems on board are not operating "properly" due to not being native to the material plane, and not created by minds shaped by the material plane, and its rules.

Basic outline of plot arc:

Ship starts crashing- party detects massively powerful magical artifact that overwhelms any of their magic users' abilities to sense magical items.

Party begins searching for the source of the anomaly, runs into random encounters with treasure hunters and adventurers, who are likewise attracted to the anomaly.

Party gains access to the crashed ship, gets assaulted by all the insane magic going on onboard.  Either succeeds or fails to appropriate the vessel, and get it working.

Plot arc (A):
Party gets the ship working--

The party gets the ship working, and goes on a wildly successful treasure/adventure hunting campaign, given that they have an all expenses paid form of rapid transit, resource storage, free resurrection/healing services (if required feats are met), and ready access to an inexhaustible supply of magical reagents (if required feats are met)-- If they get the stealth system working, it functions as a very safe place to stash loot. Party gains notoriety, and at DM's discretion, malfunctions of the vessel happen, causing chaos at inopportune times-- and the forces of the invasion track their exploits, and predict their next destination.

The vanguard forces attempt to re-appropriate the vessel from the party after the party reaches appropriate skill level. (Since these are djinn in disguise, you do the math on that.) This leads to conflict, which ultimately reveals djinn involvement.

Party explores the djinn connection. Discover hidden "displacement drive" functionality.

Arc (A1)
Party decides to assault Djinn cityship, and stop invasion. Ship permanently docks with cityship, and is lost when the cityship is destroyed. (Djinn can fly, so the destruction of the cityship is just a major inconvenience to them, rather than totally destructive to their political group. The precious raw material of the cityship is not lost, just not in a useful whole anymore. Causes a many-century long hold on any invasion plans while they rebuild their citadel.)

Arc (A2)
Party decides to assault Djinn Cityship after more completely studying their stealth ship's docking systems, finds way to prevent the ship from being remote controlled upon docking. (this is what causes the permanent docking in A1, as the docking moors refuse to disengage, as a launch is not authorized by the central govt, and all the controls are locked out.) Makes escape on the stealth ship, retains possession.

Arc (A3)
Party decides the Djinn invasion is not their concern, dont want to risk it. Try to keep the stealth ship-- Increasing resistence from vanguard forces either ultimately overwhelm the party, or destroy the stealth ship.

Arc (A4)
Party decide that they dont want to keep the stealth ship, but also dont want to go unravel evil master plans at enslaving a good chunk of the material plane. Decide instead to either destroy the stealth ship, or rig it to return to the city ship armed to self-destruct, or otherwise cause magical calamities upon docking when they are not aboard. This severely damages the cityship, but does not destroy it. Pisses off the djinn, who then hunt them relentlessly. If they choose to just destroy the ship, still hunted for "knowing too much", which jeopardizes the plan. Ultimately have to get to the material plane of air ANOTHER way, find a way to infiltrate the city ship, and stop the invasion force WITHOUT the aid of the stealth ship. Endlessly random encountered until they do.

Arc (B)

Party fail to salvage the stealth ship.

Vanguard forces observe and monitor them, to see if they learned anything about their evil master plan. Various hints are offered, until convergence with Arc (A4), "Hard way" option is possible, then proceeds that direction.

I like that idea if we're going with an elemental plane powered vessel. The Djinn are one of my favourite planar races (in Pathfinder, though Githyanki are my absolute favourite from WotC), and I actually already have a background with an Efreeti that the players freed holding a grudge against the party.

However, I think if we're going with an experimental stealth airship, I'd choose the Plane of Shadow as a source of power, for a couple of reasons. Spells like Shadow Walk already describe the Plane of Shadow as a great way to get somewhere fast. Shadow is definitely in line with the stealth theme. And for encounters, just slap a Shadow Creature template on whatever you pull out of the manual and call it a day.

Quote from: Oneir on January 17, 2017, 08:09:36 pm

If it's a military (or some other big, nasty organization with big, nasty opposition) ship, I'd be more concerned with military-grade magic detection. You can't cast it non-stop, but if you own a castle and are (reasonably) concerned with invisible, flying ships, you can probably spring for a higher grade of divination.

I'm not super familiar with the setting, but "lightning-powered air ship" sounds like something from Eberron. I'm not sure how much they get into the mechanics of that beyond X gold and Y ft/round, but you might find some useful things there. I think the maguffin there is using bound elementals to power their magipunk air ships and trains and the like. That could give you all kinds of conjuration effects if you wanted to go that way -- like subduing minor elementals to restore various subsystems.

You could honestly lift a lot of Star Trek style malfunction shenanigans, however the rest of the ship works. That might give you stuff for the less magical/mechanical party members.

Yeah, Eberron used the Lightning Rail and other magitech stuff like Elemental Airships from House Cannith. It's what I originally based my ideas upon, though a small portable portal into the elemental plane is probably far more convenient than an intelligent creature that wants to get out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 19, 2017, 03:05:46 pm

"Remember when we were just 'accidentally' burning down taverns in DND?"

Spoiler: Not graphic, but...  horrifying events, played for laughs (click to show/hide)

Last night, through especially silly hijinks, our characters accidentally 50-100 thousand people.  If Jen is going to keep using neurotoxin, she really needs to label her grenades better.  No, seriously, they were supposed to be smoke grenades, in a complex plan to track down a child-killing monster.  Which probably did die too, so mission accomplished!

Later we faked our deaths, climbed a tower of petrified Chicagoans, had a week long drug orgy with a chocolate jacuzzi, dressed like the Saints of Saints Row (I have Hugh Hefner pagamas, Jen has 10 gold watches), and were sent back to Mt Rushmore to hunt angels.  There was a police barricade, but Captain Murphy mounted a Browning 50 cal to the back of our truck.  Which I guess makes it a lot like a Warthog from halo, hehe.

At this point (about 40 XP spent), our demonic abilities are so amazing that - along with some actually exceptional good luck - we managed to fight back three squads of literal angels (10 total), to the meteor they were spawning from.  We were burning through our unholy pistol bullets and I got nicked by a couple of holy arrows (ethereal, went straight through cover).  Aggravated damage suuucks but I can't complain.  Jen and Brian were prepared to retreat...  Technically our mission was only to "gather information", after all. 

But Sean was firmly in the throws of Pride.  Marble skin, glowing eyes, foot-long claws and majestic fucking wings.  Heaven finally sent an *archangel* to end us, and he ganked it as it warped in.  Took him a couple turns but... yeah.  Yeah.

I think maybe we crossed a line somewhere, but I couldn't say where exactly :P
And we can barely use our demons as excuses.  They were suggesting petty theft, expensive watches, and inconveniently timed naps.  They hit the MOTHERLODE with us.

I'm glad the Waffle House was still open, though, my character really need 27 hashbrowns RIGHT THEN.  We didn't even kill the waitress.  In fact, she has demonic powers too now!
World of Darkness can be a lot scarier than this, while being a lot less edgy-immature.  We're just having fun with it.  Literal murder-hobos now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 19, 2017, 09:36:27 pm

I can't remember if I mentioned the 1000-year-old pig eyeball in glass which we got from a voodoo priestess in... pre-Murphy Chicago (along with a mundane copper "green flame" candle and bag of rock salt.)

Using demonic whispers we managed to rite the eye into some random pig we bought in NC, and turns out it had been alive long enough to learn English.
But apparently pigs are stupid enough not to go insane from 1000 years as an eyeball.  He was just a talking pet.  Rather nice, really, saved my bacon once :P
Heh, "talking pet".

Anyway the body "died" in the neurotoxin dealy, but we recovered the eyeball.  I'm thinking next time we don't use a pig body.

Edit:  The rock salt was actually extremely useful.  Not only saved us from a ghost, but we were able to capture the ghost in a PBR bottle and sell it to a crossroads demon for $500 (which is everything we have, now that we faked our deaths).
We are complete trash and it's so much fun!
Sorry, not trash, our characters are complete abject monsters.  One of us literally hit 0 morality and only Captain Murphy's pleasure palace (and an XP cost) convinced them that human strangers can potentially have any worth whatsoever.

We started as trash.  And maybe that's why we went into this whole-hog.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on January 19, 2017, 10:16:11 pm

The real measure of your morality is inversely related to how hammy your puns are. From the above post, I'd say that your group is definitely composed of monsters. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 20, 2017, 02:08:27 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/ba_dum_tss_pirates_band_of_misfits.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on January 22, 2017, 03:34:33 pm

You get skill proficiency choices from your class and background (and sometimes race), and they're listed in those entries.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 22, 2017, 06:24:18 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 22, 2017, 06:17:01 pm

Yeah, but then races such as half elves get to choose a proficiency or two.

What?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 22, 2017, 06:35:38 pm

Yeah. If you're wanting free armour proficiencies seperate from class, it's beards and beer for you, my friend, because you're going dwarf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 22, 2017, 07:01:21 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 22, 2017, 06:40:31 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 22, 2017, 06:35:38 pm

Yeah. If you're wanting free armour proficiencies seperate from class, it's beards and beer for you, my friend, because you're going dwarf.

You have feats that give you armour proficiencies, though. So you can get a heavy armour wielding wizard THAT way.

You can, but then you're missing out on magic feats, which would probably serve you better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 22, 2017, 07:48:47 pm

Rap, eh. Is he a drow (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/50_Copper_and_Ludi'drizz't)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 23, 2017, 05:47:23 am

Sleepy cry for help!  DND 3.5e.  Level 5 halfling rogue-or-similar, but meek due to oppressive reeducating police state.  (Eternal Christmas campaign, long story)

Is there a way to do alchemy without any spellcasting levels?  Generally they're required, of course, but surely there's another way...
If anyone knows Complete Scoundrel or other rogue-based books, I'd love your suggestions...  Not sneak-attack-optimization so much, but ways to be interesting and stay hidden.  I'm going to be the skill monkey by far, but it's a three person party - I should do *something* in battle, even if it's something stupid like throwing potions into friends.

Is that a thing?   Been playing Final Fantasy Tactics a lot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 23, 2017, 05:53:02 am

Craft Alchemy is technically entirely separate from spellcasting, and you can make various odds and ends with it that way. If you have a forgiving DM you could probably find many more applications for it than just what the rulebook recipes would imply, though I don't think you get access to Brew Potion and thus miss out on useful stuff like potions of Mirror Image (on the other hand if you have decent UMD you can use scrolls for that, which I'm fairly sure are cheaper). Can still do smokesticks and sunrods and tanglefoot bags (oh dear, do look into tanglefoot bags - great to have a thing where the saving throw decides whether you're screwed or screwed worse, and as a Small rogue you should be great at ranged touch attacks).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on January 23, 2017, 07:18:12 am

So I'm gonna be doing a Pathfinder game, in particular the Carrion Crown module stuffs. The GM is letting us Outsider (Native) for making character. RP13.

My question is what does the RP mean? I cant seem to google it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 23, 2017, 07:35:21 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on January 23, 2017, 05:53:02 am

Craft Alchemy is technically entirely separate from spellcasting, and you can make various odds and ends with it that way. If you have a forgiving DM you could probably find many more applications for it than just what the rulebook recipes would imply, though I don't think you get access to Brew Potion and thus miss out on useful stuff like potions of Mirror Image (on the other hand if you have decent UMD you can use scrolls for that, which I'm fairly sure are cheaper). Can still do smokesticks and sunrods and tanglefoot bags (oh dear, do look into tanglefoot bags - great to have a thing where the saving throw decides whether you're screwed or screwed worse, and as a Small rogue you should be great at ranged touch attacks).

Sorry Harry, check the fine print in the table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm). In 3.5e you have to be a spellcaster to craft alchemical items.

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 23, 2017, 05:47:23 am

Sleepy cry for help!  DND 3.5e.  Level 5 halfling rogue-or-similar, but meek due to oppressive reeducating police state.  (Eternal Christmas campaign, long story)

Is there a way to do alchemy without any spellcasting levels?  Generally they're required, of course, but surely there's another way...
If anyone knows Complete Scoundrel or other rogue-based books, I'd love your suggestions...  Not sneak-attack-optimization so much, but ways to be interesting and stay hidden.  I'm going to be the skill monkey by far, but it's a three person party - I should do *something* in battle, even if it's something stupid like throwing potions into friends.

Is that a thing?   Been playing Final Fantasy Tactics a lot.

So you have a few options here, none of which are ideal and honestly depends on your DM.

If we're going straight 3.5e SRD material, you 'must be a spellcaster' to craft alchemical items. Note this isn't the same as 'must have a caster level' or 'must have levels in a spellcasting class' but simply have the ability to cast at least one spell.

So if we're cheesing completely through this prerequisite—and assuming your DM allows items to count—the simplest option is a Hand of the Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handoftheMage). Wear it and you can cast Mage Hand at will. Presto ergo sum, I cast spells therefore I am a spellcaster. Should be within budget for a level 5 rogue.

Assuming this isn't allowed—a fairly safe assumption but worth checking anyway—the next option is to gain the ability to cast a spell as a Spell-Like Ability. Halflings unfortunately don't gain access to many options here, but there's a few outside of the core rulebooks that can assist. Complete Arcane contains heritage feats such as Spell Hand or Insightful that give you a handful of cantrips and 1/day level 1 spells as SLAs. The Dragonmark feats from Eberron Campaign Setting often grant SLAs. Magical Training from Player's Guide to Faerun contains SLAs too and can offer a few ways to cheese into other stuff, which is fun if you're a munchkin.

Ultimately though, it's probably a waste of time unless you've got a huge amount of downtime and more skill points than you know what to do with. I can't think of any game where crafting skills have been justified in their cost in both time and skill ranks.

Also, unless your DM is pretty flexible with the rules, throwing stuff isn't going to do much unless you're looking to go with a Quickdraw Sneak Attack throwing build. Alchemist fire is a great method of hitting touch AC and dealing Sneak Attack if you have some means of hiding from view (a loophole Pathfinder specifically reworded splash weapons rules to deny). At level 5, you're limited in your options in this department. The soonest most builds can gain the ability to hide in plain sight is through Shadowdancer prestige class at level 8.

Of course if you're totally swimming in gold, you could get the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. 10,800 gold, 10 minutes a day of the Dark template, each use counts as at least a minute or you can pay 22,000 for a constant effect. It's on page 156 of Tome of Magic. The Dark template grants Hide in Plain Sight, 120 ft. Darkvision and +8 Hide and +4 Move Silently.

Quote from: MrWiggles on January 23, 2017, 07:18:12 am

So I'm gonna be doing a Pathfinder game, in particular the Carrion Crown module stuffs. The GM is letting us Outsider (Native) for making character. RP13.

My question is what does the RP mean? I cant seem to google it.

RP stands for Race Points (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races), a system by which each ability of a race is given a numerical value to represent its strength. It's also totally broken by a sufficient min-maxer, so let's not go down this rabbit-hole. Essentially it means you can choose Outsider races such as Oread (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-oread), Ifrit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit), Sylph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-sylph) or Undine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-undine) which are in the 6-7 RP range, or a Tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) which has a 13 RP rating and is arguably stronger than the other four. It also means you can't pick Aasimar because they're 15 RP and therefore over the DM's arbitrary limit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on January 23, 2017, 07:45:56 am

The GM is gonna let us build down or build up races to RP13. Thanks for the link. Trying to figure out what the acronym means with an rpg game, did not accomplish much. I was interested in playing a Djinn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 23, 2017, 04:16:16 pm

Dear gods, your DM better hope nobody plans to munchkin this offer, because he's just opened up a world of pain for himself if he's giving you access to the Race Building rules.

Are you locked into the Outsider type or can you go with Humanoid for 0 RP as your base? Any plans for your class?

Assuming you want to be the special snowflake of your group:

Type:Humanoid (0 RP)
Size: Large (7 RP)
Speed: Slow (-1 RP)
Abilities: Mixed Weaknesses (-2 RP)
Language: Standard: (0 RP)
Defense: Lesser Lucky (+2 RP)
Advanced Movement: Flight (+4 RP)
Advanced Offense: Reach (+1 RP)
Senses: Darkvision (+2 RP)
Total: 13 RP

Congratulations, you're a Giant with 10 ft. reach, +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Wis and -4 Cha. You have a 20 ft. land speed but can fly at 30 ft. speed instead. You've got a +2 racial bonus on saving throws and can see in the dark too. Looks like a damned good option for a big stupid fighter type if you're into that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 23, 2017, 05:12:23 pm

A true warrior doesn't need to fly! The sky is a coward's haven.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 23, 2017, 05:23:36 pm

But what if you flew through the enormous power of your legendary farting abilities? It'd explain the hefty charisma penalty too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on January 23, 2017, 05:37:16 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 23, 2017, 04:16:16 pm

Dear gods, your DM better hope nobody plans to munchkin this offer, because he's just opened up a world of pain for himself if he's giving you access to the Race Building rules.

Are you locked into the Outsider type or can you go with Humanoid for 0 RP as your base? Any plans for your class?

Assuming you want to be the special snowflake of your group:

Type:Humanoid (0 RP)
Size: Large (7 RP)
Speed: Slow (-1 RP)
Abilities: Mixed Weaknesses (-2 RP)
Language: Standard: (0 RP)
Defense: Lesser Lucky (+2 RP)
Advanced Movement: Flight (+4 RP)
Advanced Offense: Reach (+1 RP)
Senses: Darkvision (+2 RP)
Total: 13 RP

Congratulations, you're a Giant with 10 ft. reach, +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Wis and -4 Cha. You have a 20 ft. land speed but can fly at 30 ft. speed instead. You've got a +2 racial bonus on saving throws and can see in the dark too. Looks like a damned good option for a big stupid fighter type if you're into that.

Our group doesnt do too much of that. And I think its the stock races, or Outsider Native .

I'm looking at the Suli RP16, and a rogue. I was gonna drop the Once Per Day elemental attack and looking at  RP1 thing. Breath Weapons looks good. Open to suggestions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 23, 2017, 05:44:21 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 23, 2017, 05:23:36 pm

But what if you flew through the enormous power of your legendary farting abilities? It'd explain the hefty charisma penalty too.

That is the worst thing I have ever seen you post on this website

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 23, 2017, 10:42:35 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 23, 2017, 05:44:21 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 23, 2017, 05:23:36 pm

But what if you flew through the enormous power of your legendary farting abilities? It'd explain the hefty charisma penalty too.

That is the worst thing I have ever seen you post on this website

Aww, you're making me blush. I didn't even know you cared!

I think my group will be happy next session. I've gone and dumped a massive loot pile in an alchemist's lab, and they've just opened it before we finished last week. Full contents spoilered for length.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alchemist’s lab (200gp, 40lbs), brown glass jar of brain mold spores (2 doses), clear glass jar of brimstone powder (30 doses), cold iron filings (70 doses), preserved darkwood chips (26 doses), tincture of ginger (83 doses), gold dust (4 doses), unopened cobalt blue glass carboy of pure keif sealed with wax and white paper (99 doses), rusted tin case filled with powdered magnesium (53 doses), dried moondew leaves inside an airtight glass jar (58 doses), pickled mugwort (19 doses), large tacky gum ball of myrrh extract (45 doses), a faintly glowing pile of phosphorous in a ceramic jar (33 doses), quicksilver suspended in syrup in an iron flask (14 doses), crumbled red realgar powder brick (27 doses), pure alchemist’s salt (62 doses), a huge single white saltpeter crystal (30 doses), tarnished small silver lozenges (83 doses), nearly empty decanter of spirit of wine (5 doses), urea powder in a red glass jug (81 doses), 60 ceramic flasks of acid, a pile of 91 air crystals, 80 bricks of unused blackfire clay, 58 chunks of alchemically treated coal, 20 earthenware jugs of underground hide dye and 87 unmixed marker dyes, a massive earthenware jug with 57 doses of alchemical grease, a glass jar with 17 doses of sweet jellied preserving gel, a spoiled brick of alchemical cement with 46 doses of dry powder in the centre, 49 doses of alchemical glue ingredient in sealed ceramic capsules and 66 bottles of alchemical glue accellerant, a set of 51 glass flasks containing alkali liquids, 80 pinches of alkali salt in a bronze tin, a massive stone amphora of bladeguard with 98 doses inside, a flask of unused dimmer dust (38 doses), 59 clay jars of defoliant, 43 doses of deodorising agent in a single amber glass jar, 70 small clear glass eggs containing elemental breath, a tall jar of preserving fluids with 95 doses of embalming agent inside, 74 glass bubbles containing impact foam, 33 glowing blue glass vials of fungal stun liquid, an amber glass dropper with 17 doses of fury drops, 8 doses of fire ward gel inside a rock crystal jug, 4 doses of frost ward gel inside a carved quartz jug, 79 doses of phosphorescent gel in individual clay vials, 16 thick sticks of incense, 8 tiny inkwells filled with green glowing ink, 23 frosty glass vials of liquid ice, a stone tub containing 53 doses of armor ointment, a ceramic dish with 79 petrified ooze discs inside, a stained brown glass jar with 54 doses of blackfinger paste, a giant glass syringe with 23 doses of bone paste.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 24, 2017, 02:24:12 am

...What's the catch?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 24, 2017, 04:51:19 am

Nothing in that room, although there's a Bonestorm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/bonestorm) in a nearby room that'll probably ruin their day. The group mostly rely on the Kineticist to take care of any swarms, and this one happens to emit windstorm force winds around it, meaning the Kineticist's blast attack is impossible to use from range per the ranged attack rules for windstorms. So either he stands inside the eye of the storm and makes DC 20 + Spell Level concentration check to use his kinetic blast, or the group have to find some other way of attacking it. It's also got SR 20, so it's a pretty damned nasty encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2017, 06:07:20 am

You should put a sign in front of the door in some language the party can't speak saying "welcome to the Bone Zone".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on January 24, 2017, 06:22:28 am

Give thanks unto Master Skeletal for thy daily calcium?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2017, 06:39:19 am

No, a good meme.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 24, 2017, 11:33:06 am

Situations like this are what make me dislike the restrictive rules of DnD.

To me, the obvious solution to this problem is to deploy an acid bomb into the room, then wait a day or two in the previous room. BUUUUTTT, The DND universe is super wonky, and does not compute the simple fact that VINEGAR will turn bones into soft rubbery bits over a few days, by dissolving all the calcium phosphate out. Let alone the "OMG, MY SKIN!" type acidity of an acid bomb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG55hUzQtrg

If DND obeyed reasonable rules, the bones in the room would become a nasty smelling brown putty adorning the floor and walls after a few days of continuous exposure to the acid bomb's emitted gas.

Throw in copious amounts of bicarbonate to neutralize the acid, then it is just a really big normal whirlwind instead of one loaded with sharp flying objects.

No self-respecting DM allows this kind of critical thinking though.

The idea is to create an acid fog effect inside the sealed room, but without casting the spell form.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Acid_Fog

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2017, 01:06:20 pm

Quote

No self-respecting DM allows this kind of critical thinking though

Because not all acids are built the same. Acid bombs aren't balls of ultra powerful vinegar and are far too reactive to last in the environment.

As for "OMG, MY SKIN!" type acidity? The game used to have those all the time. Morale penalties. (Salt-Acids)

The reason why most acid lacks that is because... well... Then you would penalize all pain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on January 24, 2017, 01:27:02 pm

Quote from: wierd on January 24, 2017, 11:33:06 am

If DND obeyed reasonable rules

It's a creature made up in large part of pure, elemental hatred. Which mundane physical laws, exactly, do you expect to govern that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 24, 2017, 01:50:08 pm

Quote from: wierd on January 24, 2017, 11:33:06 am

If DND obeyed reasonable rules

I think it would be reasonable to expect you separate personal and character knowledge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2017, 01:51:37 pm

I am trying to think of a system that would even accept "Drop vinegar into a bone tornado" as an acceptable solution to a problem.

The only one I really get is Call of Cthulhu.

Though given the nature of the tornado... I am not sure ordinary acid is going to cut it (or even acid in general).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2017, 01:53:17 pm

. . . . .and DnD, as long as your DM allowed it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2017, 01:56:13 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on January 24, 2017, 01:53:17 pm

. . . . .and DnD, as long as your DM allowed it.

Yes but we are talking about systems that readily accept you just sort of sprinking lemons on bone tornados causing their bones to turn to goo.

Rather then DMs who see a solution.

---

Likewise since Pinapple dissolves people... You should be able to slice Pineapple and hang it on Balrogs and kill them that way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2017, 01:57:10 pm

Oh, I get you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 24, 2017, 04:26:22 pm

Hey, if the characters wanna do something wonky and creative I'm all for it. I let them throw an iron maiden at a Bodak to trap it inside and stop its killing gaze affecting them. I'll come up with some form of dice roll that gives them odds of success or failure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 24, 2017, 05:00:54 pm

That's basically how I handle it, real world knowledge and rules apply, if the characters have a reasonable expectation of possessing that knowledge (so all the advanced chem stuff is out unless they are practicing alchemists, and even then there has to be in-world justification, such as personal observation.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on January 24, 2017, 07:52:10 pm

Well, today's D&D session was unexpected and ended abruptly because one of the players had to leave early. In short, all we did was prepare a gnome village (while nearly having our bard lynched for heresy) for an impending attack by a small regiment of high elves and when the general came to demand we surrender, we somehow managed to capture his horse (sleep spell that didn't hit the intended target) while he fled on foot.

I am glad our DM lets us roll for our stupid ideas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 24, 2017, 08:23:46 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on January 24, 2017, 05:00:54 pm

That's basically how I handle it, real world knowledge and rules apply, if the characters have a reasonable expectation of possessing that knowledge (so all the advanced chem stuff is out unless they are practicing alchemists, and even then there has to be in-world justification, such as personal observation.)

You dont really need to be an alchemist to have seen or done this. Acid pickled meat products would demonstrate it succinctly. It is not unreasonable to expect the deboning process to sometimes let bone fragments get past, and into the pickling jars.

Suzy Homemaker of the dark age world would have observed this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2017, 08:32:11 pm

Wait... pickled meat?  *googles*
I've literally never heard of this.  Oh, except pickled pigs feet, and pickled eggs...  But actual meat?  Wow.

Anyway, DND-wise, I think I'm going to go a bit silly an unoptimal because everyone else is.  I know we have:

Spoiler: My group can't see this!! (click to show/hide)

A blink dog who eventually plans to take rogue levels, a gryphon or something from the player who always optimizes best, and I'm going to be...

A human
ranger

Some houserules actually weaken that that character (taking a race only costs the LA, not the HD.  And all skills are in-class).  But we're being memey.  And the biggest meme in our party, while we were playing DND was... being either of those things.  Much less both.

It's okay...  Death or capture is no escape, only a session under Santa's elves' knives.  It's a Christmas horror campaign.  why

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 24, 2017, 09:07:17 pm

Spiced pickled meat was a mainstay of food preservation in dark ages europe.

Take for instance, this recipe for carmeline pickled meat.

http://www.godecookery.com/goderec/grec12.htm

Note that it calls for carmeline sauce. This is essentially vinegar and cinnamon, with bread crumbs as a thickener.
http://www.godecookery.com/goderec/grec13.htm

When superior food preservation methods became available after the renaissance, and the rise of the industrial revolution, many of these forms of food preservation were abandoned, which is why nobody in the modern world aside from ethnic food connoisseurs, historians, (and general info junkies like me) are generally aware of them.

Given the setting of the various DnD universes though, pickled meat would be a mainstay in all winter cupboards, and would be a great adventure swag bag food item, along with the more well known salt cured meats and the like.

Again, Suzy Homemaker would have observed the "magic bendy bone" cited earlier. She just may not have understood the mechanics of WHY, only the WHAT.
 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2017, 09:11:39 pm

Clearly we needed to emulate the bosmer and brew meat with special bacteria into a toxic, mind-blasting substance.

Oh wait lutefisk

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 24, 2017, 09:13:25 pm

Advanced chem applies more to things like black powder and other things that require more than average knowledge or actual experimentation.  As I said, if there is a reasonable expectation of characters possessing the knowledge, the players can act on it.  That said, vinegar against skeletons/things made of bones isn't terribly helpful when said things are trying to kill the party now.

And you are forgetting that critical thinking is actually very new in terms of knowledge (at least for the common man), or shall we just disregard 'spontaneous generation' and the other non-logic based garbage thought that dominated the medieval knowledge base?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2017, 09:41:29 pm

Just throw another copy at them after they exhaust their unique and creative method of dispatching it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on January 24, 2017, 09:53:41 pm

This whole thing reminds me of when I ran the Castle Forlorn module in Ravenloft, and the very first thing one player tried to do was construct a hand grenade right there on the spot, to throw into a suspicious lake. Essentially trying to "blow up" Loch Ness so they can see the monster swimming around. Started rattling off all these compounds he could potentially scrounge from the environment.

His intelligence was 12. I think he was a fighter.

Or the guy who maintained he simply didn't believe in ghosts, even after one aged him 25 years or so. He signed up to play a gothic horror version of D&D, and then went with "I don't believe in ghosts, in game or in real life, because science."

Some people are dead set on trying to take the fun out of gaming.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 24, 2017, 09:56:08 pm

That would take awhile. The room just prior contains a shitton of alchemy reagents, many of which would be suitable for the task.

As for taking the *fun* out-- there are OTHER, MORE INTERESTING consequences the DM can throw in.  For instance, now instead of a whirly bone trap, you have semi-alive bone-slime monster, who has native acid splash damage. -- WITH ambient whirlwind enviro-hazard.


Other creative solutions:

Conjure up large quantities of water to flood the room, then flash freeze it. This will cement the bone fragments inside the ice, while the whirlwind will whip the water up against the walls. Might be difficult to open the door after freezing it shut though.

Sustained burning hands into the room through the open door. The wirlwind will greatly increase the efficacy of the burning hands due to subsequent low pressure cell at the center of the vortex. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BxQd6AGYiI) This is great, because burning hands is ranged, and can be delivered without actually putting the hand INTO the room.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2017, 10:02:19 pm

That's the sort of thing a genius-level rogue ought to be doing, maybe?  Pull a Doctor Who, invent a bizarre solution (but not constantly, as to upstage the rest of the party).

Even with Complete Scoundrel, our occasional rogues have suffered compared to magic casters and Tome of Battle warriors.  Surely this is their niche, occasionally providing outlandish solutions to stationary defenses with epic or near-epic skill checks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 24, 2017, 10:03:16 pm

Quote from: nenjin on January 24, 2017, 09:53:41 pm

This whole thing reminds me of when I ran the Castle Forlorn module in Ravenloft, and the very first thing one player tried to do was construct a hand grenade right there on the spot, to throw into a suspicious lake. Essentially trying to "blow up" Loch Ness so they can see the monster swimming around. Started rattling off all these compounds he could potentially scrounge from the environment.

His intelligence was 12. I think he was a fighter.

Or the guy who maintained he simply didn't believe in ghosts, even after one aged him 25 years or so. He signed up to play a gothic horror version of D&D, and then went with "I don't believe in ghosts, in game or in real life, because science."

Some people are dead set on trying to take the fun out of gaming.

What is kind of funny is...

In his mind he is playing something like Batman, not believing in the supernatural because of his logical mind.

In reality he is playing something like an offensive southern stereotype, not believing in simple fact because it gets in the way of a printed out doctrine of beliefs.

I mean... Ghosts are kind of an established scientific fact... and to go "I don't believe in ghosts because of science!" kind of makes you an idiot in continuity :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2017, 10:07:38 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on January 24, 2017, 10:03:16 pm

In reality he is playing something like an offensive southern stereotype, not believing in simple fact because it gets in the way of a printed out doctrine of beliefs.

I mean... Ghosts are kind of an established scientific fact... and to go "I don't believe in ghosts because of science!" kind of makes you an idiot in continuity :P

Whew lad :P
But I do like the idea- I don't think it appears in DND, but it was a great part of TOME and maybe Zangband - of an Unbeliever, so committed to unbelief, that they were surrounded by a real anti-magic aura.
It's silly, but DND is silly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 24, 2017, 10:21:26 pm

THat's disc-world level silly though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 24, 2017, 10:30:19 pm

It's like people being choosy about what the Bible says. :P

"I don't believe in ghosts because I am a man of science."

"Science proved ghosts exist decades ago."

"Oh, but not that science."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 24, 2017, 10:31:00 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 24, 2017, 10:28:17 pm

Quote from: nenjin on January 24, 2017, 09:53:41 pm

This whole thing reminds me of when I ran the Castle Forlorn module in Ravenloft, and the very first thing one player tried to do was construct a hand grenade right there on the spot, to throw into a suspicious lake. Essentially trying to "blow up" Loch Ness so they can see the monster swimming around. Started rattling off all these compounds he could potentially scrounge from the environment.

His intelligence was 12. I think he was a fighter.

Or the guy who maintained he simply didn't believe in ghosts, even after one aged him 25 years or so. He signed up to play a gothic horror version of D&D, and then went with "I don't believe in ghosts, in game or in real life, because science."

Some people are dead set on trying to take the fun out of gaming.

To be fair, someone in denial about the existence of ghosts in a game that very definitely contains ghosts could be amusing.

A significant part of Ravenloft, as I understand it from TheSpoonyOne is...

Gods cannot reach you here, yet divine powers still work.  They're just coming from... somewhere else.  For others' designs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on January 24, 2017, 10:49:12 pm

More he was just doing it to suck the fun out of a supernatural adventure. The whole module was about ghosts, family curses, TIME TRAVEL, interacting with different time periods overlapping each other...it was rad. And the rest of the party was terrified of this ghost just running up on them constantly. This guy though? Nahhhhhhhhhhhh. Aging touch attack, life steal? Fiiinnnnnnneeeeee. He was more than happy to fight a Werewolf, or Scottish Goblins, or that tree with severed heads.....but ghosts? Nope. "I ain't scurred." What a fucking killjoy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 24, 2017, 11:59:56 pm

I dont play that way, but when I see a perfectly workable solution given what is available, I dont like being shown some batshit rule in the rulebook. If there is some even half-assed reason behind the rule other than "capricious lawyering", I can begrudge it, but often times it is just "No, that's just the rule", which I have great difficulty accepting. (Mostly because my brain sees the apparently not-obvious-to-others consequences that such rules would introduce, which result in absurdities. I know if I pressed on how those consequences would result in absurdities, it would only piss people off, but it still rankles my skin what fierce.)

This is decidedly NOT the same thing as "Oh hi there, 'totally not a ghost', It does not matter that I can have a magical object that uses your kind like an energizer battery, I refuse to believe that you exist. Thank you, have a nice day."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2017, 12:28:35 am

No, the previous science man was talking about making a grenade and made the exact same argument you have, that "it'd be common knowledge." Although the fallacy really rests in availability. Maybe not so much in an alchemy lab, but on the shores of a murky lake surrounded by scree? And even if it's not out of the realm of possibility, as a GM, I get annoyed with "McGuyvers" who want to derail a perfectly enjoyable narrative with justifying their ultra-specific solution to a problem which generally does not involve the rest of the party at all. Of course you can just hand waive the argument for brevity's sake but that's how you end up with Acid Hand Grenades in D&D.

And you know, when someone actually makes an alchemist, I have no problem doing that. But when someone just has a meta-brainwave and comes up with something they don't have the skill to make or the materials on hand.....nah, I'm not going to go chase down the logical requirements of granting them their wish, when the rest of the party is sitting there rolling their eyes. Pouring vinegar into a flask is one thing....grinding up sulphur and whatever else harvested from the landscape and finding flasks and making wicks.....at some point it's overreaching. Especially when it'd be an "easy" solution to a troubling problem, cause then it smacks of circumvention, which is my greatest annoyance as a GM because I hate playing the "how many logical holes do I have to plug so my PCs will actually do something cool" game. That's what I say it's kind of anti-fun. It feels like a video game solution to a role playing problem, especially when someone raises the Science! flag.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 25, 2017, 12:42:47 am

Notice, I said "what is available".

I offered some alternative "clever" solutions, such as conjured water + heavy ice spell, and "burning hands" through a crack in the door (if you have the time and patience)

Rule lawyering comes into play when somebody snarks out "Burning hands is a ranged attack, it says right in the description of the vortex that ranged attacks get penalty of XYZ!!"  rather than accepting that the burning hands are doing NOTHING to the source of the vortex. It is attacking the bones at the range of the burning hands effect, to remove the bones from the vortex-- OR contemplating how actual mundane physics would affect the burning hands flame jet when introduced to a whirling vortex like that. (or how the high airflow would rapidly combust the bone fragments suspended in it) It basically boils down to "I don't want to think like that, this world operates on ignorance, not knowledge."

I can see making said hand grenade if they have 1) the requisite skills, 2) the requisite raw materials 3) have the action point time required to prepare the object, and 4) meet the skill throw.

Otherwise? No.  For an already created item (acid bomb), where you just have to meet the throwing check, it is a whole other animal-- It boils down to "No, my happy bubble of ignorance will not accept your well reasoned methodology. I will invent bullshit reason why it cant happen, damn the consequences, shut up."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2017, 01:01:01 am

FWIW, this is 2nd ed I'm talking about where a lot of this was not mapped out in any way, whereas later editions of D&D accounted for things like grenades, creation, crafting...in a more detailed fashion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 25, 2017, 01:04:48 am

Sometimes the idea is really half-baked but they are expecting full results.

Like tying up a dragon in nylon rope... I don't QUITE think it will work out for you!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 25, 2017, 01:13:09 am

Nylon rope?  In a dark age setting? Pshaw!  Alchemy did not even come close to the needed theory required to make nylon.

It would be a stretch to have rayon (processed cellulose), but polyamide? No. Sorry. Not seeing it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on January 25, 2017, 01:34:40 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 25, 2017, 01:04:48 am

Sometimes the idea is really half-baked but they are expecting full results.

Like tying up a dragon in nylon rope... I don't QUITE think it will work out for you!

Which when you tell the group the grenade they just spent 20 table minutes trying to make is little more than a glorified smoke bomb......yeah that doesn't go over too well with anyone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 25, 2017, 01:45:09 am

Quote from: nenjin on January 25, 2017, 01:34:40 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 25, 2017, 01:04:48 am

Sometimes the idea is really half-baked but they are expecting full results.

Like tying up a dragon in nylon rope... I don't QUITE think it will work out for you!

Which when you tell the group the grenade they just spent 20 table minutes trying to make is little more than a glorified smoke bomb......yeah that doesn't go over too well with anyone.

Yeah but speaking as a player... sometimes having the DM just go with whatever you do... Feels disingenuous. Like you didn't accomplish anything. It definitely will keep you fooled at first for a bit.

Not that having them be horribly against you even when what you did should work for what is often pedantic reasons "I am arbitrarily going to remove your cover bonus because your large, even though you are more then covered and that would be giving you a flat penalty in all situations" (DANG IT! I totally had cover in those trees!)

I guess it is because I want to feel accomplished rather then being given a bone. Like I actually did something smart.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 25, 2017, 01:53:06 am

I like the idea, but there's a few problems with the strategy:

1. The group don't know there's a nasty monster lurking behind the door waiting to eat their faces. I mean, they know in the general sense, but not specifically that door and that monster.

2. It'll be hard to craft a giant acid bomb after the fact while inside gale-force winds. Any complex skill check inside a swarm would require a DC 20 Will save each round to succeed.

Of course the reason I give them a bunch of loot that's potentially useful now instead of just a big pile of gold coins is so they can come up with wacky, creative solutions instead of just "Roll for Initiative." There's 60 flasks of acid in that loot list, plus other really useful stuff too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 25, 2017, 02:51:15 am

I tend to be overly cautious when doing scenarios. If there is a keyhole, I will peek first. If there is a door that can be cracked open instead of just brazenly opened, I will do that first and look through the crack, etc.

A whirlwind would be immediately apparent upon cracking the door, because there would be suction against the door. (it would actively resist opening due to the low pressure)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 25, 2017, 02:57:22 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 24, 2017, 09:11:39 pm

Clearly we needed to emulate the bosmer and brew meat with special bacteria into a toxic, mind-blasting substance.

Oh wait lutefisk

Lutfisk is literally the furthest opposite to "mindblasting" you could get. It is a most substanceless, disgustingly tasteless food. Even calling it a substance is too much, it occupies a state of a fifth form of matter between solids and fluid comparable only to snot. If you were to take a food and remove all sensation and flavour from it, everything that makes a food the slightest amount of fun, that's when you get lutfisk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 25, 2017, 03:10:50 am

only when it is properly prepared.  If it is IMPROPERLY prepared, it tastes like horrid soap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on January 25, 2017, 03:12:08 am

Which is, at the very least, a kind of sensation, and thus undeniably preferable to proper lutfisk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 25, 2017, 07:40:14 am

Quote from: wierd on January 25, 2017, 02:51:15 am

I tend to be overly cautious when doing scenarios. If there is a keyhole, I will peek first. If there is a door that can be cracked open instead of just brazenly opened, I will do that first and look through the crack, etc.

A whirlwind would be immediately apparent upon cracking the door, because there would be suction against the door. (it would actively resist opening due to the low pressure)

The door opens inward. Bam.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 25, 2017, 07:48:51 am

It may piss other people off, but I always ask for an awareness check near a door for shenanigans like that.  The DM will be puzzled why, but I will overtly mention things like "well, are there any strange drafts, sounds, heat, cold, or other out of the ordinary things about this door?"

I will accept a bad roll, and roll with the punches, but I DO in fact make the effort to be wary of any and all doorways. Same with treasure chests and clearly magical items. I refuse to even touch that latter with bare hands until they are identified.  (I tend to play as a glass-cannon spell caster, and state that the preoccupation with personal safety comes from having seen fellow apprentices vaporize themselves, and having seen how evil wizards decorate their homes.)

In the case of "Door opens inward", there would be sucking air going under the gap of the doorjam.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 25, 2017, 02:46:20 pm

Yep, Perception covers all senses, not just sight. Hearing a sound on the other side, smelling a strange odour, feeling a difference in temperature, they're all valid questions. The difference is, do the players try to search for this or simply kick in the door and swing their swords?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on January 25, 2017, 02:57:22 pm

To be fair, I enjoy playing kick-down-the-door guys sometimes, because it's a nice change from real life. If carving straight into your enemies, or vapourising them, or turning them into pincushions is a viable strategy, you can be sure I'll be willing to take it rather than beat about the bush.

It's something I and my group agree on thoroughly - if you spend more than a reasonable amount of time pontificating in combat, your turn is delayed. You don't have to act instantly, but there's no time to sit and think indefinitely.

Out of combat, you can try to rationalize metagaming or such as long as you like, but the chaotic rogue is getting bored...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 25, 2017, 02:57:37 pm

RIFTS alternative: or blast the door down with placement charges, spray lasers and plasma into the room, and casually strut in with complete confidence that whatever was in there is thoroughly atomized.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 26, 2017, 10:19:18 pm

I think my need to chronicle our adventures comes in two parts.  One, I think a few people are interested in our chronicles/campaigns.  Like a soap opera, but with more fight scenes and random arson.
Secondly, because very tense and pivotal combat scenes often take hours to resolve in DND, and even in NWoD.  While playing, one has to wrap their mind around a strange time dilation.  Setting aside memory space to gradually build, over hours, the ~30 seconds of vicious lightning-fast combat.
So I like to... "compile" those fight scenes as relatively short narratives, focusing on the highlights.  So they might be remembered, and recorded, considering that they take up most of the game time.

It only ever feels like a chore for the first two sentences, heh.  Soon, it's like I'm actually there.


We returned to the Waffle House after fighting the angels.  I think only Brian (my character) even got hit, which was good because their arrows dealt aggravated damage and pierced cover and armor...  Still, Jen was also tired (nearly out of willpower).  Sean was in tip-top shape, but the sin of Pride is freakin overpowered :P

We had completed our mission of "surveillance", probably going above and beyond by slaughtering an angelic host, archangel included, and grabbing a shiny pearl out of a meteor - disabling that angelic gate, though I think the reinforcements had paused after the archangel ganking :P
Back at the Waffle House, I convinced the lone waitress to accept a possessed artifact (a red feather) - now she has powers as well, or she will when she wakes up.

Unbeknowst to us, though, Captain Murphy used us as a distraction.  His capital of Chicago is under heavy siege, and apparently he volunteered our location to the state of South Dakota.  Around midnight, we heard a grinding roar and shouted demands as a full dozen swat officers pile out of their vehicles, along with
a fucking
M1 Abrams

Spoiler: Scene (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/TBDsEib.png)

We won initiative by a long shot (that natural 1 is the police roll), which I think makes sense because they were just shouting at us to surrender.  The storyteller did also give us 9 seconds to activate our infernal abilities since we heard the tank though.

Brian, in Hugh Heffner PJs, stumbled up to cover behind that interior lobby window, then sorta lay there...  Mentally directing his demon (sloth) to open fire.  The bullet grazed one of the officers on the right, who was suddenly overwhelmed by fatigue and ennui.  The officer basically lay there for the rest of the fight, constantly failing to give a shit.
Jen, rather smartly, noped right out the back door of the Waffle House.  Too bad our vehicle was in the front, but it's okay, she had a plan... (This is when the screenshot was taken)
Then Sean charged straight out into the open.  Eyes on fire, marble skin, giant claws...

Now to summarize some, because a lot of things happened:
Jen (Greed) advanced along the east side.  Wherever she went, the officers were struck with incredible bad luck (think Vriska, maybe).  Her demon also flitted around excitedly, stealing the bullets from the guns of almost everyone who tried to harm her.
She focused for a moment and pulsed a blast of pure bling which recruited several officers as mercenaries.  Blinded by greed, they opened fire on their friends.
Eventually she was near death, so she hid in the tank...  unfortunately two other officers tried to hide in the tank (among the corpses left by Sean, which I'll get to).  Their guns disabled, they nearly pummeled her unconscious...  But her demon agreed to use its own willpower in another pulse.  They killed each other for money that didn't exist.

Sean (Pride) kinda stole the show!  He strode straight out, looking literally like a greek statue but eyes aglow.  Perhaps an angel... particularly when he sprouted majestic wings.  Anyone attempting to hurt such a perfect being had to make a very harsh roll, or just shudder in fear and shame.  He... eviscerated... a lot of people.  Including the tank crew. 

Brian (Sloth), my character... well.  I suppose he looked like a VIP, using the same "arrogance" ability Sean did.  More like a VIP scientist than an angel, though.  The officers literally always passed the roll in my case, though :P
First off, the tank turned its turret and launched a main cannon shell right past me.  Shit was *close*, and a guaranteed 25+ damage on hit (I had 8 health total, which is above human average).  But, it missed.  I botched the military knowledge roll to know the fire rate, so I fled out the back of the building too (with a parting shot, which inflicted another officer with crippling ennui).  I had a plan, but it was cut short when two officers caught up to my lazy-ass character and passed their rolls against his arrogance.  One grabbed him firmly, while the other tazed him right in the gut.  The barbed-prong-kind, too.

Jokes on them, though, my character is lazy... but insanely smart and resilient.  Thinking through the pain, he skillfully directed his demon to execute the cop holding him.  The shock hit him even harder on the next round, but not quite enough...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3472Q6kvg0
See, last session, I'd bought quick draw (melee), and a point in weaponry....
Brian, through his demon, unsheathed the katana in a harsh horizontal blow across the officer.  Shouting "BUSHIDO ATTACK" like a total weeb.
Then... being ambidextrous...  scored a critical stab with the wakizashi.  Yeaaah.

My character is basically Xavier but with telekinesis (so I guess Jean Grey?  Whatever).

Ronnie (?) uh... his player actually showed up, unexpectedly.  So it turned out he possessed our truck, which is basically a Halo warthog.  He didn't run many people over, but he did do a lot of damage with the Browning on the back.
Also he's incredibly racist, which I think is new??  Sorta relevant because Sean is black.  Later, Sean actually let Ronnie The Truck run him over a couple of times to feel better about being trapped in a truck.
We were able to take his head out of the glove compartment, but it has no eyes, it can only taste hear and speak... yeah...

So... yeah.  A pair of officers tried to escape, but Sean (60MPH flight speed) chased down their vehicle before they got far.  "Have you been drinking, officers?  *stab*".  I wanted to stabilized some survivors but Jen murdered them all, but it's cool because we did capture the newly demonic waitress.  We also arranged the corpses in... uh... a giant pentagram, in order to have a quick conversation with Captain Murphy which was basically
"We found a pearl thing summoning angels, also there were cops" "You're alive?  Cool, bring it here".

Sorta tricky drive back, but Jen was so wounded she didn't really try to fuck up Brian's supergenius navigating (plus we had a police radio to help avoid PATROLLING TANKS).  We went back to Captain Murphy and he was like "Nice job, enjoy a sinful rest".  He wasn't *trying* to kill us, just putting his own interests first.  Naturally.

In fact he blessed Brian's katanas with the ability to harm angels (HIGH FREQUENCY BLADES GET).  In exchange for a future favor (Brian's already a creepy zealot, so that worries me slightly).  Also uh, a brand.  Like, cattle-style.
this game is so fucked
i'm not complaining

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 26, 2017, 11:51:15 pm

I'd ask how you actually managed to get the Abrams open, and where the hell the rest of its company was, but knowing what I do about RP groups, I severely doubt anyone had the slightest idea how tanks are employed or how their crews behave.

Tips for DM/GMs trying to use military units, specifically tanks, in their games:

1 ) Contrary to popular belief, no tank crew on the battlefield sits around in the open waiting for trouble, they seek cover or engage in continuous sweeps to both avoid enemy fire and flush enemy units.
2 ) Contrary to popular media, tanks do not operate alone, they function in teams of no less than two tracks, with all crews coordinating continuously to cover each other.
3 ) If you are made of flesh, and are in front of a tanks cannon when it discharges, regardless of whether you are struck by the projectile, you will suffer massive soft tissue damage from overpressure, and probably die instantly.
4 ) No military commander worth a damn ever commits modern armor to an urban battle, without maneuvering room tanks are nearly useless.
5 ) If you are going to employ tanks, understand that tank crews are paranoid to the point of near-insanity, they don't open up at all, for any reason, until they are in a secure location.  I know a lot of propaganda shows TCs up in the cupola using binocs or some shit, but we don't do that in hostile territory, because snipers and ambushes.
6 ) Tanks are incredibly confined inside, no one is going to be fighting in those close quarters, because they can barely move, also, tanks don't have any sort of passenger capacity, as the interior is so crowded that it is functionally impossible to cram more people inside.  Flip side, if you somehow pry the hatch open (pfft) then dropping a grenade, even a molotov cocktail inside, will kill most of the crew fairly easily.
7 ) Modern tanks are fully sealed environments, a requirement for NBC warfare, your gas attack is not going to work, a biological attack is not going to work, even radiation isn't a thing that works when that tank is buttoned up, if you can crack its armor, then you don't need those things anyway, as you can already kill the tank.  The Abrams in particular is even more redundant, you cannot reach the driver through the main compartment, so he can still maneuver and crush lots of squishy flesh things (and not so squishy steel/concrete things) under seventy tons of tank that moves at substantial velocity and is being powered by the equivalent of fifteen hundred horses.

I could continue, but I think that covers the salient points.  The paranoia thing and not working alone applies to the military in general, if the group you're facing isn't grossly incompetent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 27, 2017, 12:11:33 am

First off I'm very glad you gave us insight like that!  (My group reads this sometimes too).

I'll clarify, but I don't mean to be defensive:

1: The tank was open because we decided it was necessary in order to operate the machinegun.  Maybe that was inaccurate...
2: I think it's weird enough that 12 SWAT members arrived within a couple hours, in South Dakota, even with a tip.  Dunno where the nearest national guard base is how many tanks they have.
3: I was actually at least 15 yards away, in a building, taking potshots behind two walls...  Again, if the shell had rolled any successes, I would have been <chunky salsa>
4: They might have tried to manuever except our supernatural guy charged them pretty fast, he was inside the tank in 9 seconds.  While they were handling the reload from shooting at my character in the building.
5: Considering we *accidentally* (no really) killed about 20,000 people with gas the day before, yeah they probably would have been too cautious to open the hatch.  Agreed.  We might have worn it down with supernatural bullshit, but actually I think it may have been able to escape.  If a national guard tank can exceed 60 MPH, anyway.
6: We were ironically out of deadly grenades.  As for close-range combat inside, people did get their dodge bonuses... maybe they should not have.  But the situation was a marble-skinned being with claws sliding down the hatch and killing them in melee.  Then later some scared SWAT crawling in, then getting mind controlled while trying to brawl the fuck out of Jen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 27, 2017, 12:23:08 am

It is necessary open up in order to operate the cupola mounted M-249, but in this case the crew would have opted for the co-axial .50 cal instead.  15yards is so damn close it might as well be spitting distance, they would have opted for a range of at least 150 yard/meters, and would have rejected being stationary in a city/townscape outright (Abrams with governor engaged goes 65-70 mph, disengaged is much higher, but they don't like us doing that, as the likelihood of plowing a track increases tremendously).

No, definitely no dodge bonuses, they would have been difficult to kill nonetheless, as there is no room to move inside, at all (there is a small volume of space near the center of the turret, so the loader can move shells from the racks to the breach, but its only about four feet high, so any kind of melee anything is basically out).

And to be really honest, they'd probably have employed mechanized infantry with squad weapons alongside Apache attack choppers instead, much more maneuverable, similar firepower.

Still it sounds like fun, and I'm not trying to be a killjoy, given the situation you guys had, you earned your victory.

Note: this stuff is probably what makes my groups so paranoid, when I throw enemies at them, I make sure they behave as realistically as I can.  I've got a friend who has been GMing longer than I've been alive, and his axiom is "Give the enemy the intelligence they were born with." I find that statement describes my style pretty well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 27, 2017, 12:28:28 am

Yeah 12 SWAT along with a national guard tank seemed like an odd mix - though to be fair, Chicago is literally a warzone at this point (with "patrolling tanks" on the highways) so maybe it was a bizarre mix of units still even loyal to the US.  Shit is getting pretty severe, at least in the region.

Edit:  We were in that city near Mt Rushmore, something Falls I think.

And I truly appreciate the realistic input, thank you!!

In this system, people only get to dodge at close ~2 yard range.  It's "Wits + Dexterity", so I think it's supposed to encompass shifting away from blows at brawling distance.  Though maybe it's so close that combatants should automatically be in grapple, which disables dodging.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 27, 2017, 12:43:35 am

For some reason I have the "Dominion Tank Police" theme music playing in my head now...

Bonus points if you somehow include the "ultimate deterrent" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be9VlfYdmvk) in somehow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 27, 2017, 12:53:56 am

I love the old Dominion Tank Police movies from the nineties, one of the very first anime I ever watched, and that intro was awesome.

Additional bonus points for working in Ana and Uni Puma.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on January 27, 2017, 01:51:21 am

Man. That tank company commander is going to get court marshal. Super incompetent. Where is that tanks support? Generally a US Tank Platoon is 3 Tanks. Where are the other two? Where is its mechanize infantry? Where the Infantry Company this Tank Company is working in conjunction with?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 27, 2017, 11:54:40 pm

Can someone explain to me why, in curse of strahd's level 1-3 dungeon, there is a LITERAL BAG OF SHIT that the party can loot!?

Loving everything I found so far but this... This is SOOOOOOOO messed up

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on January 28, 2017, 12:10:28 am

Because someone left a bag of poop there, and the party can loot anything they can carry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 28, 2017, 01:16:50 am

You missed your chance, but Cards Against Humanity actually sold a Bullshit Box on Black Friday with literal bullshit inside (http://time.com/3634443/cards-against-humanity-poop-black-friday/). So perhaps your sack of shit isn't so inexplicable after all?

Plus if it was me in the game, I'd automatically invent some method of finding a door in a dungeon, lighting the bag on fire, knocking on the door and then hiding around a corner.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 28, 2017, 03:44:54 am

Ideas time!

So my players last session have gained the aforementioned airship by passing a series of fairly easy skill checks to gain control of the unmanned craft. Part of the charm of it will be its umbrite shadow engine, harnessing the power of an ethereal rift to power the vessel through passage through the Plane of Shadow.

As part of this, the characters will be exposed to an encounter risk involving primal magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/primal-magic).

The rules on this page have a recommendation to strike out one result and add a new one when it's triggered, so I'm sourcing ideas from the community to build on this table.

Any thoughts for some effects of magic gone wrong?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 28, 2017, 03:55:33 am

What features does the ship have?  Does it have the transmutation function? If so, interractions can be interesting.

Suggest rolling 1D6 to get a "severity", and another 1D6 for number of effects, and another 1D6 (or suitable dice for total number of allowed effects) for each effect to determine what it is. Get a shortlist of effects and assign them each fair dice rolls. (Personally, I would cobble together a simple python or VB scriptlet that simulates the dice rolls, and does the table lookups to say what the effects are, but not everyone has my skillset or would find that a trivial exercise.)

That is different from what the table suggests, but would allow more interesting combinations, such as nightmare gore that smells like chocolate, coupled with giggling laughter, and soothing music-- for example.


As for ideas:

Smells
Sounds
material emissions
alterations in mass or chemical properties resulting in aberrant matter
conjurations
transmutations
illusions
behavior altering effects/compulsions
status changes
"sensations" (other, such as say, "prickling", or "tickling")
spontaneous activation of nearby magical items (wands, potions going flat, etc)

Really, if it is a magical effect, it can happen.  Abandon normal things that go together, like "fire being hot".  The hallway could be replaced with a burning inferno, but be perfectly room temperature, and smell like marmalade, with a slight itchy feeling. etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on January 28, 2017, 04:02:51 am

So far the group haven't passed any of the checks to identify its secret functions. I gave them a DC 30 Knowledge: The Planes check to know how it works, and there was a trapped folder that exploded into a fireball and destroyed its contents inside the captain's quarters.

Currently the ship has the feature "broken as shit." It's stats are included below, spoilered for length.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Damaged Airship

DESCRIPTION

This exotic and expensive vehicle is held aloft by unknown energies. This ship is similar to a sailing ship, complete with an open top, and is propelled by an esoteric magical engine. Passengers and cargo are carried in the ship.

Colossal Air vehicle
Squares 128 (40 ft. by 80 ft.); Cost 50,000 gp

DEFENSE

AC 2; Hardness 5
hp 1,920 (current 480)
Base Save +0

OFFENSE

Maximum Speed 100 ft.; Acceleration 30 ft.
Weapons Up to 6 Large direct-fire siege engines in banks of 3 positioned on the port and starboard sides of the airship, or up to 4 Huge direct-fire siege engines in banks of two on the port and starboard sides of the ship. The siege engines may only fire out the sides of the ship they are positioned on. They cannot be swiveled to fire toward the forward or aft sides of the ship.
Attack ram 8d8
CMB +8; CMD 18

DRIVE

Propulsion weird current and magic
Driving Check none (magic)
Forward Facing the ship’s forward
Driving Device weird engine
Driving Space the nine squares around the controlling magic item that sits at the front of the ship
Crew up to 100 creatures of medium size or smaller

LOAD

Decks 4
Cargo Up to 30 tons or 100 passengers.

Care to offer ideas for specific examples of what you'd consider good effects for your suggested tables?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 28, 2017, 04:46:24 am

Suggested method:

1D6 determines number of simultaneous effects.

For each D6, 1D6 is rolled for severity, and 1 dice of appropriate value determines effect type. Some effects may have a subtype-- such as, say "Sensation", or "Smell". Roll suitable dice for the subtype.

Again, this is time consuming to do with real dice. would create a diceroller script that produces output for expediency, and which outputs the values of all the rolls (because SOMEBODY will always ask)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on January 28, 2017, 06:20:20 am

Quote from: highmax28 on January 27, 2017, 11:54:40 pm

Can someone explain to me why, in curse of strahd's level 1-3 dungeon, there is a LITERAL BAG OF SHIT that the party can loot!?

Loving everything I found so far but this... This is SOOOOOOOO messed up

I once looted some troll shit and put it in a bag while exploring the entryway to a level 1 dungeon in my 3.5 game.

Nine levels later I still have it. Turned out to be less useful than I thought.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on January 28, 2017, 06:43:43 am

Also there is a fairly good reason for there to be a bag of poop in Strahd's dungeon...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is literally a homicidal Jester who is terrible at jokes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on January 28, 2017, 09:03:23 am

Planar shenanigans are always fun. When handling the engine directly, for instance, you could have a 1 on a d6 cast Blink on the handler, or 2 put them into the shadow plane for 1d10 minutes (hopefully there's a closet corresponding to the engine in the shadow plane, so they don't plummet to their deaths...)

If abjuration is in effect anywhere to keep the ship stealthy or whatnot, require a concentration check to cast while aboard the ship. If something rocks the ship, you could say that on a 1-3 on a d10, an antimagic field on the ship activates for 1d20 minutes - a safety measure gone wrong.

...all planar magic used on the ship is automatically Empowered?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 28, 2017, 11:51:47 am

Quote from: Neonivek on January 28, 2017, 06:43:43 am

Also there is a fairly good reason for there to be a bag of poop in Strahd's dungeon...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is literally a homicidal Jester who is terrible at jokes

No no no. This is in the death house optional dungeon.

Spoiler: Death House Spoilers (click to show/hide)

WHY DO CULTISTS NEED A BAG OF SHIT!?! I do find it funny that old players and metagamers get pranked by finding what LOOKS like a wand of polymorph but its just a frog stretched on a stick in the same spot.

Also, I decided to add an NPC ally so the party has someone to possibly sacrifice for the easier exit out. Since I decided that Barovia will have several others of my previous characters who are most likely dead, I picked the best one for this.

I'm hoping the party doesn't mind having my slightly suicidal 4e Fighter that was a champion of bahamut appear

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on January 28, 2017, 04:07:41 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on January 27, 2017, 11:54:40 pm

Can someone explain to me why, in curse of strahd's level 1-3 dungeon, there is a LITERAL BAG OF SHIT that the party can loot!?

Loving everything I found so far but this... This is SOOOOOOOO messed up

Wait, was it just regular old shit or bat guano? Because bat guano is one of the material components of the fireball spell, along with sulfur (which is likely a reference to the recipe for black powder (though there should probably also be some charcoal in there)).

Quote from: Jimmy on January 28, 2017, 03:44:54 am

Ideas time!

So my players last session have gained the aforementioned airship by passing a series of fairly easy skill checks to gain control of the unmanned craft. Part of the charm of it will be its umbrite shadow engine, harnessing the power of an ethereal rift to power the vessel through passage through the Plane of Shadow.

As part of this, the characters will be exposed to an encounter risk involving primal magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/primal-magic).

The rules on this page have a recommendation to strike out one result and add a new one when it's triggered, so I'm sourcing ideas from the community to build on this table.

Any thoughts for some effects of magic gone wrong?

After being exposed to it for a while, you might have them roll for mutations from the Metamorphica (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/115703/The-Metamorphica-Classic-Edition). Or you could use before that but have the mutations have a limited duration. Either way, you might want to give them a Fortitude saving throw to avoid, and possibly have the DC scale up every time the effect is triggered.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 28, 2017, 11:59:25 pm

Started off the session fine, for the most part. Ran into an insane Ranger in the woods, who was cursed to view everyone as an Orc. We beat her unconscious and used a potion of Remove Curse on her. We then ran into a Will-o-the-Wisp who desperately wanted to destroy our lanterns, who we stuffed into a lantern and used to open a portal to a demi-plane relevant to the adventure.

Upon entering, we ran into a Giant that was ugly as sin that did not appreciate our presence. Also within were a bunch of primitive Fey that learned the power of the boomstick relatively quickly. They tried to ambush us in the surprise round but the shotgunner surprised them instead, and they just took off instead.

Though that also attracted the attention of some Lurkers in Light. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/lurker-in-light) The flighty bastards. So our Witch has been permanently blinded. We cannot undo this at the moment. We're kind of fucked now. She's the only one who can use Appraise, or identify magic items. And a number of other skills.

We also dealt with a tree that wanted to eat our Oradin, and a Hag. Damned Hag just turned invisible and harassed us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 29, 2017, 12:06:07 am

Any chance of getting/crafting a magical eye prosthetic, a-la the wyrd sisters in greek myth?


Looking through the source you linked, a couple objects would fit the bill:

Robe of eyes
Veiled Eye

etc.

Sadly, it does not sound like you have the needed feats/mats to make one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 29, 2017, 12:15:21 am

We're in the middle of a swamp with the closest non-hostile area having been more or less destroyed in a siege. We have no crafting. We're only level five, so casting healing for ourselves isn't an option. We may be able to buy it from a friendly caster later. Much later, it looks like.

The writers didn't even leave a scroll of "Remove Blindness/Deafness" in the pile of loot we got at the end. Actually, most of the supposed loot we were sent to retrieve from the demiplane had long rotted away, aside from the magic stuff that we can't identify. Seems like we were sent on a fool's errand.

We actually have more gold than we are supposed to have at the moment, thanks to the DM throwing us a bone after the siege bullshit. Which is sad, as it is still below what our Wealth by Level is supposed to be, according to the Core book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on January 29, 2017, 12:31:48 am

clairvoyance (spell) might allow you to sidestep it somewhat if you hang around areas long enough to become familiar with the surroundings, and you can somehow obtain bits of horn, or glass eyes--- and if your witch is high enough level.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/clairaudience-clairvoyance

Given that you are seeing through the sensor, (and if your DM allows it), it would give your witch a 10ft sight radius wherever you place the sensor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on January 29, 2017, 10:17:21 am

Party finished all but the second floor of the basement in Death house as well as the Cult Leader's bedroom. They just got attacked by wall ghasts, and ended there.

I managed to use my laptop and my DM screen to create some terrible acoustics (at least it made the SFX louder)

Won't say much more because of spoilers for Curse of Strahd, but best part had to be a party member getting crit and dropping by a broom

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Aseaheru on January 29, 2017, 10:50:57 am

 Incase anyone here plays a game with late soviet/early Russian baddies, have just about everything that the US had on them that was non-classified as of 1991. I know Im gonna be using this thing. (https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm100-2-3.pdf)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on January 29, 2017, 07:06:06 pm

There are a bunch of rules for WW1 era Soviets in Pathfinder floating around. A bunch of firearms and other weaponry, as well as trench zombies and animate tanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 04, 2017, 01:30:33 am

Man I keep finding pen and paper RPG kickstarters that I'd love to jump in on

But HOLY GOODNESS is it nearly impossible to tell the quality of one without getting your eyes on it.

I seriously wish I had more money.

HECK I am looking at a kickstarter for a DM guide (sort of) that I am just pining for... but I know will probably be like most of the other ones with just essay after essay with no application.

Man I want to DM so bad I am practically clawing at my table... >_< NO Neonivek NO!!! Not after what happened to that CoC game! BAAAD!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on February 04, 2017, 02:23:01 am

I had an idea for a universe some time ago.  I even made up some simple subject materials, dreamed up how the world works mechanically, how seasons work on it (because it is a VERY strange world), and a few other things.

I had no idea I could do kickstarter type things, I was going to make it for free, and just see if anyone wanted to try it out. I live in BFE, and dont have a local gaming group, so I have nobody to test it on/with.

Perhaps I will dedicate the effort to finish it, and the sample campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Aseaheru on February 04, 2017, 08:44:33 am

 Gods, I managed to get two of my siblings to join me in playing a game of microlite, inwhich the first session resulted in us getting kicked out of one tavern, running out of town, sneaking into a second town and then looking for a healer to fix the totally preventable concussion of one of our party.

 The second/third sessions(we are switching GMs every 4-5 hours, and just played about 6.5 hours) we where joined by one of our friends, spent a night in a rather... kinky swamp hut, got chased out of a forest(somehow managing to keep all of our gear thanks to a well-timed nat 20), traveled across a second swamp, traveled with a few shepherds, wound up in a little extremely straight-laced town where everyone's drunk and the church was burned down, where we picked up a pair of insane twins and their... excitable grandmother. Who my person met in jail, where she was in for urinating on the mayors house.

 In any event, we have Germie the hobgoblin fighter(who wears no armor, calls themselves German potato salad and has a stuffed parrot who occasionally swears in a random language), Everett the rouge with no tools(Designated group mom and responsible one, controlled by me), Sir Poutieface (mediocre wizard man, and I think has a another name), and now Agatha Christie, the 10ft tall half-ork who wears next to nothing, identifies as an Apache helicopter, and is the reason why we now have three NPCs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 04, 2017, 03:50:36 pm

I find it weird that there is a growing trend of Pen and Paper RPGs with absolutely no character customization.

Preset character only RPGs... Sure you can change their name, gender, and appearance... but by large they are already made for you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on February 04, 2017, 04:52:09 pm

character generation takes for freaking ever, and kids today are impatient.

that's why premade chars/classes are popular

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on February 04, 2017, 07:18:28 pm

Quote from: wierd on February 04, 2017, 02:23:01 am

I had an idea for a universe some time ago.  I even made up some simple subject materials, dreamed up how the world works mechanically, how seasons work on it (because it is a VERY strange world), and a few other things.

I had no idea I could do kickstarter type things, I was going to make it for free, and just see if anyone wanted to try it out. I live in BFE, and dont have a local gaming group, so I have nobody to test it on/with.

Perhaps I will dedicate the effort to finish it, and the sample campaign.

As someone who cares about you simply as a fellow human being, I must advise you not to do a Kickstarter. They take an inordinate amount of effort to pull off, probably won't succeed unless you happen to have a huge social media presence, and, even if you do make your goal, you'll likely be left with burdensome financial obligations unless you plan very very carefully.

If you really want to publish something yourself, I would recommend looking into Print-On-Demand services first. I would most recommend OneBookShelf aka DriveThruRPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/), RPGNow (https://www.rpgnow.com/), Dungeon Masters Guild (http://www.dmsguild.com/) (a site Wizards of the Coast uses to sell PDFs of old, fan created, and Adventurers League material), and various others. As far as I can tell, RPGNow and DriveThruPRG have identical inventories, and DMSGuild just has Wizard's stuff, but it doesn't matter, since all digital material (like PDFs) are stored on a single account that works with all the sites from which already purchased material can be downloaded as much as the user likes (sort of like Steam or GoG).

It's probably worth looking into other options, though, and maybe diversifying your publishing options if you can, because not every customer is going to necessarily be looking in the same place. I once found a page that had a breakdown of various POD (or maybe it was PDFs?) publishers, and what percentage of royalties they would take, but can't find it anymore, so I'll try to help the best I can.

Lulu (http://www.lulu.com/sell) (was this the page I was thinking of?) isn't a specialized store like OneBookShelf, and isn't used as much for indie RPGs as it once was (probably since it doesn't even have a dedicated RPG category), but it's probably worth not discounting it entirely.

Then there's also Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=14061761), which is probably worth looking into just for the fact that it's huge and a place where many people go to buy things just in general, though that could end up drowning your product in obscurity. Regardless, it has some good self-publishing options in the form of Kindle (https://kdp.amazon.com/signin) and CreateSpace (https://www.createspace.com/), the latter of which seems to have a good amount of printing options.

All of this is to say that, if you're looking to publish, Kickstarter should probably be your last option. It should really be looked at as more of a financing option for rather ambitious projects than the only way you can make something for sale.

Quote from: Neonivek on February 04, 2017, 03:50:36 pm

I find it weird that there is a growing trend of Pen and Paper RPGs with absolutely no character customization.

Preset character only RPGs... Sure you can change their name, gender, and appearance... but by large they are already made for you.

Are you talking about Powered by the Apocalypse-type games? Because in those they are made that way to help convey the themes of the game (and yes, also make it easy for someone to pick up a character and play without having to use pre-mades).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 04, 2017, 07:28:18 pm

Quote from: wierd on February 04, 2017, 04:52:09 pm

character generation takes for freaking ever, and kids today are impatient.

that's why premade chars/classes are popular

Generating 3.5/pathfinder characters does take for fucking ever, though.

In 1st and second eddition, it was just roll stats, choose a race, choose a class, and buy some shit, maybe pick/roll a few spells.

In 3.5, roll stats, choose a race, pick a class, pick feats out of a big list of mostly crap, create the list of class skills, distribute skill points (and rouges have like infinite class skills and points), buy some shit (god forbid your above 1st level and get a WBL in the thousands, better traw the list of magic items), and pick a handful of spells maybe.

And the hours multiply because there's dozens of books and the good stuff is spread out among all of them.  My first character in 3.5 took at least an hour and a half to make, with DM guidance, and the fucker still died in like the first session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 04, 2017, 07:38:04 pm

And that's if you don't go whole-hog with splatbooks like my ground does...  not complaining, it just takes a long time to find the right exploits.

Though I wonder if these new systems are actually pigeonholing characters, or just leaving more up to the imagination?  Probably depends a lot on the specific system.  DND is arguably over-specific about what characters can actually do.  When there's some feat or skill-trick that lets you... random example, perch in a corner of the ceiling, it's harder to justify "My character tries that, what's the DC?".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 04, 2017, 07:48:09 pm

Wasn't true until second edition, when they added "non-weapon proficiencies". Other than specific things only the theif class could do.  Though in 2nd, they were an optional rule.

Even then, NWPs were much wider in scope.  Most were basically just occupations and could cover whatever duties those people could do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on February 04, 2017, 09:24:31 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on February 04, 2017, 07:18:28 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 04, 2017, 03:50:36 pm

I find it weird that there is a growing trend of Pen and Paper RPGs with absolutely no character customization.

Preset character only RPGs... Sure you can change their name, gender, and appearance... but by large they are already made for you.

Are you talking about Powered by the Apocalypse-type games? Because in those they are made that way to help convey the themes of the game (and yes, also make it easy for someone to pick up a character and play without having to use pre-mades).

Not sure what you mean -- PBtA tends towards simple character customization (pick your stats, pick your starting moves, make any choices those moves call for, repeat when you level up), but you do have mechanical choices.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on February 04, 2017, 09:38:39 pm

Quote from: Oneir on February 04, 2017, 09:24:31 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on February 04, 2017, 07:18:28 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 04, 2017, 03:50:36 pm

I find it weird that there is a growing trend of Pen and Paper RPGs with absolutely no character customization.

Preset character only RPGs... Sure you can change their name, gender, and appearance... but by large they are already made for you.

Are you talking about Powered by the Apocalypse-type games? Because in those they are made that way to help convey the themes of the game (and yes, also make it easy for someone to pick up a character and play without having to use pre-mades).

Not sure what you mean -- PBtA tends towards simple character customization (pick your stats, pick your starting moves, make any choices those moves call for, repeat when you level up), but you do have mechanical choices.

Yeah, I guess I didn't read the post too closely, and now I have absolutely no idea what it's referring to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 04, 2017, 09:51:47 pm

If people are intimidated by 3rd ed char creation, they are probably rendered catatonic by RIFTS and other Palladium titles, seriously, even Shadowrun is easy compared to those.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 05, 2017, 01:16:30 am

Nah it is that I've been looking at kickstarter projects...

and if the Pen and Paper RPG isn't an add-on or conversion for 5e/Pathfinder... It is a game that features no real character customization except picking one to two jobs (and those jobs don't level) with nothing on the side whatsoever.

Shame because some of them are very interesting... One is you are a teacher in a magic school with the focus being more on academia, social interaction, and office politics. Another is you are a thief in a cartel trying to make grand heists.

I wouldn't even mind if preset characters were standard as long as they offered some form of customization. Yet without that ingredient it just becomes a roleplaying board game. Which EVEN THEN that would be ok, but goodness would getting players be an issue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 05, 2017, 01:33:10 am

The DM gave us a level after a bit of roleplay, so the Oradin finally got 3rd level spells, meaning he could cast Remove Blindness/Deafness on the Witch. Meaning we could all finally identify our loot.

We also got the mission of raiding a castle. We had been told that we had to somehow befriend all the hostile Orcs inside so that they would help us kill all the Ogres inside. However, the book gives the DM no potential methods of befriending the Orcs. In fact, any non-Orcs/Giants are to be killed on sight, so I have no idea why the potential of causing an insurrection would be given as a side-objective.

We tried yelling at them, and they responded by raining arrows down on us. Then we spent a few days hunting animals in the woods, to give as a gift to the Orcs. They take the meat, and let us in.

We came across a Dwarf in a makeshift arena, fighting off Direbears with a skillet. Not just any skillets though; it was the greatest of skillets. +1 Mithril Skillet. It's a thing. Why is it a thing? Fuck if I know. The book says it be what it is, so it do. No idea why Orcs had enchanted kitchenware. It being Mithril alone meant it's non-stick, so why would you go the extra mile to enchant the fucking thing?

We bought the Dwarf. Rather, the Witch bought the Dwarf. For 5,000 gold. Just offered it on the spot, no haggling or anything. Unfortunately, the Dwarf did not come with the skillet. So we offered to buy his gear for another 2,000 gold. We got his gear, but not the skillet. It was not his; they made the Dwarf fight with the skillet for their enjoyment.

Interesting session, to say the least.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 05, 2017, 01:40:01 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 05, 2017, 01:33:10 am

We came across a Dwarf in a makeshift arena, fighting off Direbears with a skillet. Not just any skillets though; it was the greatest of skillets. +1 Mithril Skillet. It's a thing. Why is it a thing? Fuck if I know. The book says it be what it is, so it do. No idea why Orcs had enchanted kitchenware. It being Mithril alone meant it's non-stick, so why would you go the extra mile to enchant the fucking thing?

...Is that somehow actually a thing?  Mithril being easy to clean?  It *sounds* right.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on February 05, 2017, 01:33:10 am

Interesting session, to say the least.

Agreed!  Weird module, sounds like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 05, 2017, 01:45:13 am

Honestly... I know I should have other commentary but...

I am just wondering if Mithril would even be a good material for a Skillet.

I mean, I guess it has the same or similar heat conduction that Steel/Iron/Lead does... But would its super light weight be a detriment?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 05, 2017, 01:47:37 am

Here's a link to a Waffle Iron, Mithral (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Waffle%20iron%20(mithral))

Relevant text:

Quote

As with other mithral cookware, food rarely sticks to a mithral waffle iron.

And this isn't just a module. This is a part of an entire adventure path, which is six whole books. One path I have many problems with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 05, 2017, 01:55:26 am

Quote from: Neonivek on February 05, 2017, 01:45:13 am

Honestly... I know I should have other commentary but...

I am just wondering if Mithril would even be a good material for a Skillet.

I mean, I guess it has the same or similar heat conduction that Steel/Iron/Lead does... But would its super light weight be a detriment?

I doubt it.  Aluminum camping cookware is very light by design, and it works well.
Heck, that's probably the inspiration.  Though aluminum isn't nostick, and is a bit fragile since it's thin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 05, 2017, 02:04:09 am

That is a terrifying waste of mithril.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 05, 2017, 02:32:54 am

The strangest part is that it's been nerfed; it used to be cheaper. Granted, it was only nine gold cheaper, but the point stands. Especially since it no longer matches Mithral's pricing formula.

Mithril. Mithral? Or is there a Y in there somewhere? Too many ways to write it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 05, 2017, 02:40:30 am

Mathraiyl?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 05, 2017, 02:45:16 am

Maeiouandsometimesythrill.

Shouldn't it be called a Waffle Mithral? or a Mithral Waffle Iron? Ultimate Equipment has it as Waffle Iron Mithral.

What the hell kind of proficiency do you need for a skillet anyways? The Dwarf had Catch off Guard, so that doesn't count, since that's basically Proficiency: Non-Weapon Weapons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 05, 2017, 02:48:38 am

It's specifically listed as a Misc. item, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on February 05, 2017, 02:52:15 am

So, 10pt buy campaign set in Numeria. I've decided to run with the Savage Technologist archetype of Barbarian, and so far the base of my build is:

Human, for the bonus feat.

12 STR / 17 DEX / 12 CON / 10 INT / 10 WIS / 8 CHA

Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse

Twin short swords.

How's that sound, as a somewhat-optimal build that doesn't get too silly or forsake flavour?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 05, 2017, 02:55:39 am

>Human, for the bonus feat.

Error. Complacency detected. Alter selected race for optimum uniqueness and fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 05, 2017, 03:02:11 am

Get a gun at some point. Preferrably a Dragon Pistol, if no Advanced or stronger firearms are available. I know they're expensive as hell, even in a Guns Everywhere setting, but the Savage Tech gets treated as having TWF when fighting with a gun in one hand and a normal weapon in the other, and does not provoke for shooting in melee range.

Be sure to pick up the Suspicious Rage Power to shore up your poor Will Save. If you stay Human, their Favoured Class Bonus can boost your Will Save even higher.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on February 05, 2017, 03:42:42 am

Quote from: Neonivek on February 04, 2017, 03:50:36 pm

I find it weird that there is a growing trend of Pen and Paper RPGs with absolutely no character customization.

Preset character only RPGs... Sure you can change their name, gender, and appearance... but by large they are already made for you.

In 3.5e and Pathfinder, character creation is a minigame unto itself. I'm lucky enough to have a group that enjoy this aspect of the game. However if you're running a one-shot campaign or a game-store PUG it's easiest to simply have sheets ready to go on the fly.

So in my campaign, my players basically have said "Fuck this noise!" and abandoned the dungeon I'd created. They're now flying off in their new airship to find a city to rest and sell loot.

Aside from paying them back later by releasing the giant undead dragon in the aforementioned dungeon at a later point in the game, I've got a new opportunity to develop a bunch of adventure hooks. This time they're headed for a port city, so pirates, underwater encounters and Cthulhu-esque eldritch aquatic abominations against nature are all fair game as options for encounters.

So far I've got:
1. Harbormaster asks group to investigate recent loss of communication with lighthouse on isolated island far out to sea.
2. Pirates based from nearby island chain raiding passing merchant vessels, bounty offered by mercantile cartel for their elimination.
3. Treasure-hunter in dockside tavern looking to hire group to help explore sunken wreck in nearby reef rumored to contain (insert macguffin here).

Any other ideas for harbour town adventure hooks?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 05, 2017, 03:50:58 am

A sultry maiden inside a local tavern catches the party's eye. After an extended conversation (laiden with borderline lewdity) the party now have to rescue her friend from a band of nasty pirates who've taken her hostage.

Plot twist: she's a siren. The sister is real, though. She just forgot to mention the fact that they charmed, kidnapped, and converted several of the pirates beforehand, which is why they're so cheesed off.

Should the party remain amiable after this revelation, they will be rewarded handsomely and the siren (s, possibly including the rest of their school) will assist in any future battles with pirates or Cthulhu-esque eldritch aquatic abominations against nature in open ocean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 05, 2017, 03:54:50 am

The sea god decided that your ship is now a regular sailing ship rather than a flying one. Now you have to go have a word with him if you ever want to fly around again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on February 05, 2017, 06:53:04 am

The meticulous harbourmaster does not know what to file a flying ship under, and decides to impound until proper laws and taxes can be established. The party has to embark on an adventure of bureaucracy and insipidity to her it back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 05, 2017, 06:58:59 am

There is a warehouse full of goods from a nation nobody has heard of, seemingly brimming with an unfamiliar sort of magic. Sensing something to be terribly wrong, the ship's crew (amicable sorts to a man) have been detained for questioning by the town guard and the goods in question impounded in a harborside warehouse under heavy guard while the local authorities attempt to figure out what they are and where they might have come from (and possibly who they could auction them off to in the event that they prove dangerous). Their ship, which seems to be some kind of giant nautilus with billowing flesh-sails, menaces the other ships in the harbor and permits no access without the owners' explicit authorization.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on February 06, 2017, 08:15:53 pm

How about something with a Dread Pirate (death knight with a peg leg): Foresaking crown and country, a royal privateer turned to piracy in search of ever great fortune and glory. When ship and crew were both lost in a storm -- chasing after a fat prize, headless of the weather -- the court let out a collective sigh of relief. Until, of course, ship and captain both rose from the depths, unable to rest. The party must reach the honest heart of this undead mercenary, and see him laid to rest again with honors.

This has the potential for a ghost ship chasing the party down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2017, 01:24:03 am

Friend is running his "Quest for the Grail" homebrewed PnP game.

Inspired by our playthrough of Dark Souls, it's a mashup of that and the movie Excalibur (1981.) You all play knights of King Arthur's roundtable, set off the quest to find the Holy Grail. You aren't the first to do so, and you likely won't be the last.

Character generation largely is done with a deck of Tarot cards, and they flavor many GM decisions when he chooses to go the deck for randomness. Your Major Arcana determines your base character traits like "Strength", which is your health, starting "Skill" points and some core character abilities like double damage or power mimicry or endless supplies or whatever. The minor arcana further adds some skill points and makes you a specialist badass in some knightly trait.

Skills are interesting in that they are all knightly skills, so riding, hunting, sword play, courage, etc....then there are knightly virtues like chastity or patience or temperance, which can come into their own related tests when called upon. Then you have 4 stats for the 4 elements, and 4 stats for 'humors' like blood, bile, phlegm. They're all "skills" in the sense they can be called upon, tested or used as a basis for bonuses to actions or to determine who has the advantage in contested actions like combat. So you might get a bonus to doing a blood ritual (heaven forfend) if your Blood stat is high....but it also might give you a penalty if you, say, cut yourself on a devil plant.

Lastly you have DOOM. Doom is a catch all penalty for the whole game. Everything ultimately leads to your doom. You acquire doom points as you play and make roleplaying choices and the quest progresses, and test against it constantly to see what happens. Generally Doom is just that, you're dead or out of game one way or another if you blow the roll. It's unclear if it can just penalize you. But if you're in combat and you exhaust all your strength, you'd be called on to make a doom roll. Fail it and the enemy probably runs you through, beheads you or whatever. Succeed at your doom roll and you're just knocked down. You gain some doom, and get up again with a little strength restored to try to fight another round.

The final kicker to the rules system is you can convert your all stats (except doom) into experience. However if you spend 'Humors', you gain Doom.  Acquire enough experience, you gain a level. Level is effectively a straight bonus to all rolls. Initially it's a smaller portion of your combined chance to succeed because you start at Level 1. But for example I drew the Judgment card for my arcana...which gave me 0s in all skills but started me at Level 7. So while most players were rolling with a +3 or +4 to their die rolls at best counting all circumstances, I was rolling with a +10 even though I effectively had "skill" in nothing.

It's a pretty enchanting little system with a nice closed loop of advancement, where he hands out micro rewards during gameplay unlike pretty much every RPG I've ever played. Woo a wench? Your choice of 1 point in x, y or z skills. Show faith and devotion to god? Get a point of Faith. Do your duty with honor? Get a point of diligence. Generally if you act in unknightly ways (he had every character sign their name to a sheet of knightly oaths he sourced from somewhere on the internet) you get Doom. Since skills function as both skills and experience, you have to weigh the advantage of being stronger at one individual test by letting your stats grow, or becoming more effective at all tests by turning them into XP, and eventually levels. When you fail tests, you generally earn XP. When you succeed, you earn skill points. The system is a little floaty and generic as is his way with most games he designs, characters are very fluid in their stats and makeup, but it's got a nice little reward mechanic which rewards roleplaying and straight combat/adventurey type stuff equally for doing the things the player wants to achieve, be that sleeping with maidens, training, praying and devoting themselves to God, acting with honor or with a level head. And even if the thing you're doing never gets called on very often (let's say charity or chastity) you can still turn those skills into better overall effectiveness, so you don't get left behind by people that just want to hit stuff real good. It nicely side steps the "I play a bard in a party full of kill bots and I'm totally outclassed because I'm playing an actual character" problem so many games run into.

It might create a sort of neediness on the player's part to get rewarded for literally praising God all the time, and require some thought on his part to reward people that don't participate as much or as vigorously. But because he's essentially broken experience gain into morsels that also provide short-term advantages as well, it's something he can control the flow of while also not stiffing his players on any kind of meaningful advancement. There is no level cap, so in theory the system is infinitely extensible.

Doom is also a nice mechanic because, not only is it totally thematic to the endless suffering and eventual death of the Grail Quest, it's a weight against doing risky things. A player stole magic items from Merlin tonight and with some amazing die rolls, got a magic item right at the start of the game. But it earned him (comparatively) a lot of doom. He went on to utilize this item in a fight and it eventually got him killed.....by just the amount of doom he earned stealing the item in the first place. So with all this kind of freedom to get better is the weight of guaranteed death hanging over you, so it becomes a race to see who can live the longest and get the strongest and be the most legendary knight of the party that everyone remembers.

The setting is cool too. It combines the sort of dreamlike setting of Dark Souls with the allegorical, fantastical and mystical trials of the Grail Knights. (He really, really drank deep of the Dark Souls koolaid.) He's completely dialed in to the vision of endless hordes of Grail Knights throwing themselves at the impossible task of finding the Grail, leaving a trail of armored corpses across the land. In the first session one player managed to "die", and rolled up a second character immediately, who was literally a knight we pulled off an impaling spike that was still alive. So fuckin' metal.

So yeah, between his rather clever and eminently flavorful system he's cooked up specifically for the game and the setting, which oozes with mysticism and gives you that quest of torment Dark Souls vibe, I'm more excited for the rest of this campaign than many I've played in a long time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 07, 2017, 10:02:40 am

....Iwannaplaaaaaaaay

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 07, 2017, 02:32:16 pm

Quote from: nenjin on February 07, 2017, 01:24:03 am

Snip

Would you be willing to ask your friend if he'd be willing to pass on the ruleset/setting? It sounds like the sort of game that's been floating around my head for a while.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on February 07, 2017, 03:35:24 pm

Looking at the Giantbane feat, and realizing how little it costs to permanently minimize a halfling, I'm now possessed of the bizarre urge to run a tinies campaign.

The idea of a party of cat sized drop marines riding around in an airship made from folded paper and candles is hilarious while also managing to be absurdly dangerous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 07, 2017, 04:02:42 pm

It's this kind of bizarre urge that good games are made of. I've wanted to run a giant-focused 5E game for a similar reason, albeit without that amusing mental image in mind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 07, 2017, 04:23:46 pm

Quote from: Draignean on February 07, 2017, 03:35:24 pm

Looking at the Giantbane feat, and realizing how little it costs to permanently minimize a halfling, I'm now possessed of the bizarre urge to run a tinies campaign.

The idea of a party of cat sized drop marines riding around in an airship made from folded paper and candles is hilarious while also managing to be absurdly dangerous.

7th level party, with three Fighters who all have Giantbane, and a Cleric to cast Freedom of Movement to escape grapples. Then, you can just buy Reduce Person off a 9th level wizard for 2590 each, and badabing, badaboom, you're Tiny. If you want to go even further, you can get a ring of Reduce Size for another 4000, and you're now Diminutive. And that's still well within WBL. That said, you're now only doing 1d3 damage with a longsword, so you'll probably have to try and get Weapon Finesse.
You could even go with all 6th level Fighters, if you can find a good way to get out of grapples, which is going to be your biggest problem. Scratch that, just remembered that you can use Escape Artist to get out of grapples, which shouldn't be too hard to buff to ridiculous numbers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 07, 2017, 04:25:16 pm

...............Kinky.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2017, 05:45:39 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on February 07, 2017, 02:32:16 pm

Quote from: nenjin on February 07, 2017, 01:24:03 am

Snip

Would you be willing to ask your friend if he'd be willing to pass on the ruleset/setting? It sounds like the sort of game that's been floating around my head for a while.

He's a bit of a perfectionist and I think wants to commercially own something that turns out to be a real winner. But I'll see what he thinks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on February 07, 2017, 05:53:35 pm

So how many folks lost character sheets when Mythweavers FUBAR'd?

/me raises his hand with tears rolling down his face

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: nenjin on February 07, 2017, 06:04:04 pm

I don't think he's got the rules to the place he wants them or really codified. But he's some of the campaign materials he said I could post.

(http://i.imgur.com/B1Wmi3Zl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/B1Wmi3Z)

(http://i.imgur.com/X7YHsNQl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/X7YHsNQ)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on February 07, 2017, 06:28:28 pm

Quote from: Sirus on February 07, 2017, 05:53:35 pm

So how many folks lost character sheets when Mythweavers FUBAR'd?

/me raises his hand with tears rolling down his face

omg I thought I was fine until I clicked on the name

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://luxembourgish.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/starwarsvadernoooo.gif?w=580)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 07, 2017, 07:11:04 pm

Quote from: nenjin on February 07, 2017, 06:04:04 pm

snip

That's really awesome! If he's ever looking for outside playtesting, I'd love to try it out!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on February 07, 2017, 07:59:31 pm

Quote from: nenjin on February 07, 2017, 06:04:04 pm

snip

That is neat. Seems like it could scale pretty well to a PbtA-style rulebook that only takes up a few pages. I'd be interested in seeing suggestions for coming up with oaths (collaboratively with the group?), since nothing you've said so far sounds like it wouldn't translate to a non-Arthurian/non-Soulsy setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on February 07, 2017, 11:11:26 pm

I'm digging that Oath of Chivalry. Puts me in a Paladin style mood again. My second favourite class after Conjuration Wizards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Loveshack on February 08, 2017, 11:37:29 am

I'm Nenjin's friend.  You can AMA about the Grail Quest game -
but I won't reveal the full rules because they are in no shape to be picked apart.  Specifically I mean the character creation rules; I'm obsessed with game balance and this is the least balanced game I've ever designed... In fact I gave only passing and arbitrary thought to character balance. I threw it together in about 10 hours of solid work over the course of 20 days and largely in stream-of-consciousness fashion.

P.S. I'm a career lurker and do not understand the ways you surface-dwellers, so preemptive apologies for any inevitable forum faux pas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 08, 2017, 11:46:30 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 07, 2017, 11:11:26 pm

I'm digging that Oath of Chivalry. Puts me in a Paladin style mood again. My second favourite class after Conjuration Wizards.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_oRiWJWXVPM/hqdefault.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 13, 2017, 08:02:19 pm

Quote from: Covenant on February 13, 2017, 07:58:35 pm

Quick question - I'm sure it's an obvious answer, but I just want to check.

In 3.5, if you're using Metamagic (say to Empower something, thereby using up a spell slot 2 higher than the usual required one), can you substitute in an even higher slot than should be required? Like if I want to cast Empowered Magic Missile, but I'm out of level 3 slots, can I use a level 4 spell slot?

yeah, you can do that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSlots)

Quote from: D20 SRD

A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 13, 2017, 11:25:59 pm

Got a new player in the group, playing a Rogue/Cleric. The player he's replacing was booted after failing to come several weeks in a row, with poor excuses, if any. Most of it was him saying he can't join because he wanted to play a different game with a different group.

We're still trying to invade this keep, and still keep having near-death experiences. Ogre-Kin are tougher than actual Ogres, it seems. Though neither are as tough as the Hill Giants. They're also shit at names. One of the Leader's enforcers named himself the Slaughtering Slaughterer who Slaughters.

Just waves after waves of enemies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Aseaheru on February 14, 2017, 01:56:56 am

 Thats... Rather simplistic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on February 14, 2017, 04:14:08 am

Sounds about right for Ogre-kin though. They rely on their brute strength to win battles, not smart tactics.

Now if it was Drow, you'd expect to have ambushes and poisonous weapons. If you were fighting Dwarves, you'd be up against impossibly well defended choke points. Against Elves, you'd have a torrent of arrows and spells pouring down on you during combat. So long as the DM is playing the race true to their nature, it's good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 14, 2017, 09:35:05 am

Technically, it's supposed to be a standard dungeon-crawl were we go room to room and fight them that way, but they know we're here, and it doesn't make sense for them to sit and wait for us to come to them. Plus we have two heavily-armoured Paladins and two people with guns, so it's not like stealth is an option.

At least we don't have to fight the Orcs. We're still going to end the Orcs, since Sense Motive told us they're planning on killing us later so they can keep the fort for themselves. They set up camp in the fort's dried up moat, so we'll just blow the dam they set up next session. Hope we can still go back and loot their flooded camp; I really want that frying pan.

Lately I've just been thinking of new character builds. Some cool new stuff in Pathfinder's Psychic Anthology, including a heavily armoured Kineticist archetype, and two Spiritualist archetypes that I have my eye on.

One gets a ghost-weapon in place of their Phantom, which acts similar to a Magus Black-Blade, and the other trades out their Phantom for a ghostly Animal Companion. The Kineticist can only attack with their Kinetic Blast using Kinetic Blade and any Form Infusions that require it as a prerequisite, but gains a lot of goodies in return, including a short-ranged Pounce at level 13. My only complaint is that it's not full BAB, nor can you dual-wield blasts, but both of those would be ridiculously powerful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on February 15, 2017, 12:42:46 am

So we started the Carrion Crown. We have a Paladin, a Cleric, Inquisitor, Investigator and me the Rogue.  We didnt get through very much as we spent the session going over character stuff. Since other may run through this, I'll suppose i'll put this in spoiler, so I wont be told to get fucked with a rake.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So we did the funeral. And we brought the body over to the gravesite where the peasants got super pissed and accosted us. And we didnt murder them! We only knocked one out, and I failed to disarm one of the peasants.

So had the will read to us. And we introduce ourselves and our vocation. I described my rogue, as a Get Backer, type. I retrieve stolen items. The Paladin is having problems with this. The Investigator was fine. I want to come up with an example where the Paladin was breaking laws to do something good. Like something like, "When you go rescue someone do you ask permission before you enter their evil domain? Did you ask permission to take them back?" 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on February 15, 2017, 12:56:13 am

When the lord of the land takes your newly wed bride against your, and her will, is that not an act of wickedness? In your eyes, would refusal to permit the lord his claimed 'right' likewise be evil? How dost thou reconcile?

;P

Prima nocta for the win.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2017, 05:57:28 am

Should a beggar be whipped for stealing a loaf of bread to survive?

Actually, I've been reading through the Code of Hammurabi (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ancient/hamframe.asp). There's some awesome stuff in there about ancient law and how disputes would be resolved. I've actually had some great adventure hooks from reading this.

Eg: A recent widow comes to the group begging for their help. A gang of toughs hired by her late husband's brother is harassing her to hand over her property, claiming he has a will signed by her deceased husband. Is it simple greed? Is there something more valuable than simple land buried under her house?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 18, 2017, 10:58:21 pm

I've said it before, here it is again: Fuck Giantslayer. Spoilers, for those who care.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

We pretty much killed an entire fortress in the courtyard in one encounter. This isn't how it was supposed to go, apparently. It was a mercy from the DM. Not even sarcastic here.

Most of the rooms inside had murderholes where ogres and hill giants were supposed shoot arrows at us, yet we wouldn't be able to fight back. Tons of traps as well, and every damn door was locked. Pitfalls with diseased pikes at the bottom, oozes that can deal Con-damage, and even ghouls. Symbols of sleep, insanity, and Weird. Many cannibalism-causing Haunts. There was worse stuff, but we befriended the ghost of the fort, so all of his nastiness was avoided.

Apparently there was a hidden pathway to avoid all of this BS, but you weren't able to detect it with passive Perception; it could only be found if you were actively searching for hidden entrances. Plus it was only accessible from the courtyard, and once you entered the fortress proper, the doors would auto-lock behind you. And with the gauntlet of traps and enemies, you would not get the opportunity to open it up again until the boss was killed.

Anyways, we flooded the moat by destroying the dam. Also solving our Orc problem. Unfortunately, we could not go back to loot the flooded Orc camp. Don't know why, it's not like the water is dangerous after it's finished flooding. I still want that Mithril Skillet.

We also met a friendly, if cannibalistic and evil, Hill Giant. Apparently doesn't attack unless you attack first. He offered to buy the Witch's Familiar for 100 gold. Cats are a delicacy, you know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Yoink on February 19, 2017, 01:12:08 am

Quote from: Arx on December 21, 2016, 12:04:29 am

Numbers be scary, yo.

Pfft, that's what Great Cleave is for! *fighterflex*   


...Yes, that was the last page of the thread I looked at. Sorry.
Been reading Reddit stories and what-have-you and getting a strong hankering to get back into tabletop, even if I unfortunately have no realistic chance of doing so in the near future. I was finding it hard enough to find a group before when I was living in the city, now I'm... nowhere. And I'm in a nowhere with incredibly poor public transport. Sucks to be me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on February 19, 2017, 06:44:15 am

So I just started a game of Apocalypse World. Doing initial setup, we established that, at some point, the Chopper (archetype who gets a motorcycle and their own gang) took over their* gang with the help of their friend the Driver (guy who gets his own vehicle. Ours decided to have a motorcycle to fit in with the gang). I believe (going from memory here, and also chronology wasn't well established) the Driver was injured in this struggle, and the Angel (medic class) fixed him up. And at some point they took over a mansion that used to house a cult, which they believe they killed off, though not for certain. Also, the Angel was in the gang before this, but left after an incident with another gang, I think, where he got some scar. Also, the Driver is apparently in love with the Angel's girlfriend, the Skinner (prostitute basically). Also there's a Savvyhead (mechanic/mad scientist), who might have some connections I'm forgetting, who has blueprints for a laser gun that he got from his parents. And I'm playing a Battlebabe (sexy fighter person is how the book basically describes the class, though I don't really play it that way), who carries around a silenced sniper rifle and an ornate bladestaff that she inherited from her parents. At some point rather recently, she was hired to intimidate the Chopper's biker gang into paying up the money they owed someone. Also, she lives alone in lighthouse called GoFuckYourself.

So, to start off, the MC asks if anyone wants to do a job to make some money, and the Skinner volunteers first, taking on a job as an escort for the leader (named Brock) of the coastal town (Rutherford, I believe it was called) south of my lighthouse, which caused uproar from the townsfolk to see their leader in such a scandalous manner.

Then the driver took on a job to deliver smoothies from the town of Fresh Fruit to Bolivia, a town south of it. To keep the smoothies frozen, the Savvyhead installed a freezer unit in his sidecar, and so in return he shared some of his payment for the job with the Savvyhead.

The Chopper, in retaliation/a way to make up the money they owed, decided to take over one of Tom-Tom's (the guy they own money to) businesses, booze (which makes up half the business of the city Tom-Tom is in, Partyville. The other is drugs). The takeover was pretty successful; they only had to kill one of the guys operating the place, Bill, who they apparently knew and liked, and managed to get some of their gang to run the place well enough.

Then the Angel went, and, while picking medicinal herbs along the road that leads from Partyville to the North Pole (what the Chopper's gang calls the mansion they took over, which happens to be centrally located on our map), he met a raver girl who wanted to trade some of the Angel's medicinal herbs for a vial of what she called "Party Favor". She also said she was heading to the mansion to see the cultists (she wasn't a cultist herself, just friends with them). The Angel didn't want to give up his herbs, but he sensed that the raver chick wanted to have sex with him, so he did so in exchange for some Party Favor.

Then it came to my turn, and, being that my character is basically a mercenary, she was willing to take any job that payed well enough. So she acted as a bodyguard for Brock, as his rendezvous with the Skinner made him somewhat unpopular, doing overwatch during a speech. She was able to detect that one of his regular body guards intended to harm him, and was able to shoot him down, but not before he stabbed Brock. Luckily, she was able get to him in time to get him medical attention, and (most importantly) get paid.

Then we had a bit with the Skinner, who had a bit of a falling out with a friend and lost a place to stay over her scandal with Brock, but she was able to bounce back from that rather well, meeting up with the local distributor of Party Favor in Rutherford and, after some seduction, getting a good deal on a supply of said Party Favor that she intends to sell in the future.

So, next, the Savvyhead was looking for some specific parts for his laser gun, and, after coming back from his smoothie delivery, the Driver mentioned seeing one of those parts (a transmitter/receiver) down in Bolivia. So the Driver gives him a ride down there, and, while they're at the shop where the part is, the Savvyhead uses his Things Speak ability to check the part out, critically misses, and gets trapped in a vision, where he sees that the shopkeeper has murdered and stolen from people in the past. The Driver, seeing that his friend is under some sort of mental affliction, enters his vision and pulls him out, and, after learning from the Savvyhead what this shopkeeper has done, and considering the obscene price he wanted for the transmitter/receiver, he decides to just kill the guy for it.

But things don't go well for the Driver, as it turns out he had his safety on when he took the shot, and he misses a second shot. So the shopkeeper bolts away from them down a trapdoor. The transmitter/receiver is still lying out, so the two of them decide to just take it and run, but it turns out the shots fired earlier attracted attention. The Driver, going first, meets up with what basically counts as law enforcement in the town and gets hit with a shotgun blast. Luckily, his armor (or really his Daredevil ability) absorbed some of the damage, but it was still a pretty bad hit. He managed to get back to his bike, but, in the chaos, he got separated from the Savvyhead. Then, as he was driving away, someone shot him with a 9mm, so he had to drop the transmitter/receiver so that he could make it back to the gang headquarters to get patched up.

Around this time the Angel arrived with the raver chick to the North Pole (gang headquarters. I did not name it). She was rather upset that none of the cult members were around, and there also seemed to be bloodstains, and the Angel had a vision of her being killed by one of the gang members, so he took her outside and had her calm down, and later went in to heal the Driver.

Then the last thing was me. I didn't have much of idea of what my character would be trying to do other than mercenary work, so I said the first other thing that popped into my head, which was trying to learn about the origins of her bladestaff. The MC asked me if she remembered anything else about her parents besides the staff, and I said something about seeing some sort of symbol, which might belong to a secret society. So, while in Rutherford, she happens upon a guy with this symbol on the back of his jacket. She starts asking him about it, but he's clearly under the influence of Party Favor, and doesn't say much other than that it belonged to his uncle, I believe. She offers to put in up in a nice hotel (since she doesn't let anyone else stay in GoFuckYourself, and also as a bribe), but, as they're walking away, she senses that they're being followed, and ditches the guy so that she can lose their trail, but manages to take his jacket with her before she goes.

All-in-all, I had a lot of fun, and I look forward to whatever the hell happens next. I think I might try to get the gang's help retrieve the guy (or, at least, I suspect I'll need to), and I might end up helping retrieve the Savvyhead and/or the transmitter/receiver. But, honest, who knows what the other people are going to do, or how the dice rolls go.

*genders given are for the characters, rather than players. There's a lot of crossplay going on in this game, such that I think only the Driver is playing a character that matches the player's gender. I used "their" for the Chopper as that character is ambiguously gendered.

EDIT: The MC just sent out the preliminary photos map of our area (he plans to turn this into an actual map later):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/QA6dxmI.jpg)The unmarked areas are, from left to right: Dusty Road, North Pole mansion (with the farmhouse where the Savvyhead's parents were killed below it), and GoFuckYourself lighthouse above Rutherford.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 19, 2017, 05:39:49 pm

Probably either Nature or Survival. Survival is usually the go-to to avoid getting lost, but Nature covers geography as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2017, 06:13:07 pm

It is Survival.

Nature is academic knowledge... While Survival is applied knowledge.

So Nature would know what animals live in an area... While Survival would help you find or avoid those animals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 19, 2017, 06:16:53 pm

Having 5 ranks in survival gives you the Extraordinary ability to always discern north, at least in 3.5e heh
Which is actually pretty neat in our current campaign where there's constant snowfall, and the authorities are... untrustworthy.  In the 1984 sense.  So I kinda expected them to be lying about north for mysterious reasons...  Surprisingly, they weren't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 19, 2017, 06:19:33 pm

Why don't you have a compass?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 19, 2017, 07:58:36 pm

We actually could get compasses...  We'd just have to write letters to Santa asking for them.  Like, write them as players.
A compass is probably pretty benign, since there's no map-rotating conspiracy after all (I was being appropriately paranoid).
But it *might* be interpreted as part of an escape attempt.  "Why would you need a compass, friends?  The town is tiny, and the giant compass ground-mural is accurate..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on February 20, 2017, 04:14:24 am

So I am gearing up to run a Delta Green game, with it new spiffy edition. The players requested it set in the 80s. I'm done with that. I was thinking of running it in Southern California. Outside of LA, So Cal looked surprisingly different. Like there were still famrs. Orange Farms in Orange COunty. There was an Alligator Farm next to Knotts Berry Farm. My SO Suggested Hawaii. WHich sounds cool. Lots of options to get isolated, a good reason to be in nature. Dark scary oceans. It would also give me a reason to bone up South Pacific Mythology, as I dont know a lot about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 20, 2017, 08:59:00 am

Man... soooooooooo desperate to run a game now. It eats up my mind.

Quote from: MrWiggles on February 20, 2017, 04:14:24 am

So I am gearing up to run a Delta Green game, with it new spiffy edition. The players requested it set in the 80s. I'm done with that. I was thinking of running it in Southern California. Outside of LA, So Cal looked surprisingly different. Like there were still famrs. Orange Farms in Orange COunty. There was an Alligator Farm next to Knotts Berry Farm. My SO Suggested Hawaii. WHich sounds cool. Lots of options to get isolated, a good reason to be in nature. Dark scary oceans. It would also give me a reason to bone up South Pacific Mythology, as I dont know a lot about it.

Plus you have that whole Moana movie to draw upon!

"And then a singing crab attacks you with a very lame musical number"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on February 20, 2017, 10:00:58 am

Also Lilo and Stitch!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 20, 2017, 10:33:23 am

Quote from: scriver on February 20, 2017, 10:00:58 am

Also Lilo and Stitch!

That is reserved for season 2 :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Aseaheru on February 20, 2017, 01:37:39 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 20, 2017, 08:59:00 am

"And then a singing crab attacks you with a very lame musical number"

And then complains that if they where Jamaican they wouldn't still be on their back after everything else is over.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 20, 2017, 08:12:03 pm

May sound silly...

But I TOTALLY want to do a highschool (Or Highschool-esk... I don't care if it is adults... like a university) setting!

But the issue is... I kind of have no freeken idea how to pull it off...

Dungeons and dragons is flat out... out...

Shadowrun... could work... Call of Cthulhu 7th ed oddly enough works pretty well O_O...

But I kind of want the school to be special in some way... not like a typical school.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 20, 2017, 08:15:03 pm

In the near future, evil corps have captured the elder gods, and use them to generate cheap power. Our heroes are students attending a university to get a degree in Eldritch Engineering... if they can keep their sanity intact in the process!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 20, 2017, 08:17:37 pm

World of Darkness is pretty great for making mundane humans, and for emphasizing social stats/skills as much as intellectual and physical ones.  People are generally humanly vulnerable even after many sessions (unless they're supernatural, and often even then).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on February 20, 2017, 08:33:40 pm

My work printed some merch for a Shadowrun rip-off that took place in a school. Involved a bunch of pre-teens trying to take on evil tobacco corporations or something like that. Except the corp also owned the school.

Kind of hard to imagine a non-collegiate/university tier school in Shadowrun that could include a wide-enough variety of teachings for a typical party composition though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on February 21, 2017, 02:43:03 am

I'm going to throw out Teenagers from Outspace. It can even work with early Uni students. Its bent toward comedy. So I suppose it really matter what theme and atmosphere you want.

There is a Gurps setting, though maybe dont use the Gurps for an inter-dimensional Uni setting.  Illuminati University. Go go IOU.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on February 21, 2017, 05:04:13 am

Buffy the Vampire Slayer would also work for highschool, provided you've got, y'know, vampires and slaying in it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on February 21, 2017, 11:45:24 pm

I've mostly finished writing up the setting for that Pathfinder game I want to run on the forum, but I need input on something: I don't know how to deal with a low-magic Pathfinder game.

To sum things up, the setting is more or less Europe with things merged, switched around, new backstories written up, and the names and details changed for the sake of brevity, clarity, and not offending anyone. (In short, there's a huge Anglo-Saxon/Frankish/German empire in the west, a Russian/Wendish republic in the east, a Celtic kingdom in the northwest, an Italian kingdom I'm not entirely satisfied with yet in the southeast, Viking tribes in the north, and Finno-Ugric tribes in the northeast, with basic outlines written out for another continent with Arabian-, Iranian-, and Turkish-themed nations.) The setting exclusively contains humans, but I intend to allow (modified) dwarves and half-elves, albeit as characters whose bloodlines go back to dwarves and elves back in the age of myth rather than as outright dwarves and half-elves. There's three major belief systems: a modified version of Celtic polytheism, followed by everywhere but Not!Scandinavia and Not!Finland, and straight-up Norse and Finnish paganism, followed by their respective derivative ethnic groups.

I want a relatively gritty game where magic is the territory of gods and beings that have long since disappeared from mortal view. I intend for the players to someday fight these strange and terrible beasts and perhaps obtain items and weapons of divine origin, but I want the game to be by and large low fantasy; I want a game where the players are morally ambiguous people who fight morally ambiguous or outright villainous people, whether for honor, for gold, for justice, or for power, and all of this with steel and cunning rather than magic and sparkles. I have no clue how to make this work in the context of Pathfinder--perhaps five or six classes in the SRD use no magic at all, and probably seven or eight if I'm being generous or restrictive with archetypes. I could allow the half-magic classes like bard or ranger, but for some reason "magical realism' doesn't really feel right in the same sentence as "gritty", so to speak.

Ideas? I was thinking of a middle ground where players can play as partial casters who've had their spell lists excised of the spells that can't be explained as extraordinary luck or skill (e.g., the ranger's 1st-level spell list would have things like "alarm", "entangle", and "summon nature's ally" removed, but stuff like "longstrider" and "magic fang" can stay), but I don't know if that's worth it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 22, 2017, 12:11:57 am

_{what about the one you were already gonna run on the forum}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 22, 2017, 04:44:50 am

Just restrict people to nonmagic classes. 5-6 classes is probably fine, as I don't imagine you'll be taking more than 5.

Nerfing gish classes just feels like the wrong way to go about it. It just makes them bad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on February 22, 2017, 05:04:33 am

Are you excluding all monsters that include magic (essentially anything except animals and humanoids)?

How high a level do you expect to run this game? Anywhere past level 3 and you're gonna be in trouble.

The balance of Pathfinder expects players to own a certain amount of wealth in magical items. If you're restricting players to masterwork only, you're going to be heavily increasing the odds against them.

Any time I see a DM use the words "low magic" I assume it's because they aren't confident enough with the rules to run a high level campaign. I'd suggest looking into E6 rules for Pathfinder (http://p6codex.com/) as an alternative so you can cap the limit of magic in the world without adversely affecting the players. By capping level advancement to 6th level, you're allowing access to 3rd level spellcasting at most.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 22, 2017, 05:16:57 am

The simple solution is to not try and keep magic out of player hands. Our DM runs a 3.5 game set in the Bronze Age roughly a thousand years after the gods stepped off the world, and how that works is that, for instance, a copper weapon is the regular version, a bronze weapon is masterwork, a masterwork bronze weapon is +1, a masterwork bronze weapon reinforced with a bit of mithril is +2 and so forth, and actual magic items are very rare and we pretty much have to make our own if he have something particular in mind. Similarly, the place we're in has the highest-level spellcasters be capable of something like 6th-level spells, and there's no such thing as a store where you buy magic items or, more often than not, even healing potions or anything like that. And many of the players are not so much following a magical tradition (our sorcerer and I bargain with spirits for new circles of spells and invocations respectively, our paladin of tyranny follows the tenets of his clan as they were laid out by his grand uncle) as establishing one (our cleric is overseeing the resurgence of his fire deity, I'm stealing and grafting souls to myself to get a backdoor to obtaining ur-priest powers). We're actually a bit behind on what you'd expect in terms of magic items, but we tend to acquire innate and unusual abilities to make up the difference.

To help with this you could have magic work like it does in Game of Thrones - a color spray, for instance, is not you actually generating a spray of color as it is you giving someone the evil eye and sending them into a seizure. Not flashy, still silly in a medieval witchery kind of way, does the job and is entirely inexplicable. Plus, you know, why the hell would you play Pathfinder if not to be some form of magical badass? Combine this with the E6 rules and you have reasonable fragility, reasonably consistent style and not too much magic to mess with your attempts at realism.

Now the other simple solution would be to play Burning Wheel, Symbaroum, Dungeon World or some other system that's easily compatible with more explicitly low-magic adventures. But those can be hard to get a hold of at the best of times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on February 22, 2017, 06:02:02 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on February 22, 2017, 05:16:57 am

Now the other simple solution would be to play Burning Wheel, Symbaroum, Dungeon World or some other system that's easily compatible with more explicitly low-magic adventures. But those can be hard to get a hold of at the best of times.

Well, at least Dungeon World, like Pathfinder, has a free online SRD (http://www.dungeonworldsrd.com/) (at one point I also picked up a free no art version PDF of the rules, but I can't find it anywhere online anymore). Also, all the rules the players need are in the playbooks (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3269630/dwdotcom/Dungeon_World_Play_Sheets.pdf)(pdf link), which can be downloaded from their website (http://www.dungeon-world.com/).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on February 22, 2017, 06:46:31 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on February 22, 2017, 05:16:57 am

E6 rules

Oh man, this is absolutely perfect. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on February 22, 2017, 06:51:28 pm

This low-magic game you're talking about, is it the same one you mentioned a few months ago? About being Vikings?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 22, 2017, 10:02:34 pm

Second fight of the campaign...  We found some rebels in a cave, fighting Santa's candy-men.   We weren't sure which side to help...  Until the rebels turned out to be powerful spellcasters, throwing 6th level spells (we're level 10).  Viva la revolution!

First action...  I run up and attempt to grapple one of the candymen, who just got shocked by a wall of lightning.  I want to try out the rake ability, so I go for a grapple.  Natural 1, then confirm the crit fail.  I stumble into the wall of electric energy.  Reflex roll:  2.  I take 80 damage, but my character's *very* tanky, +5 Con modifier.  Still, fort save to survive massive damage: nat 1.

oh roll20

Death isn't so easy in Christmas Town, though.  The candymen will put me back together (minus a HD)...  The question is, will they have questions for me.  Clearly I was just trying to pull the candyman away from the wall, see!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on February 22, 2017, 11:20:03 pm

Quote from: Sirus on February 22, 2017, 06:51:28 pm

This low-magic game you're talking about, is it the same one you mentioned a few months ago? About being Vikings?

Ja.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 22, 2017, 11:23:42 pm

i can dig it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 23, 2017, 09:54:18 am

Man I never noticed how many systems print really terrible and useless books.

If I bought those books I sure would be EXTREMELY pissed...

Ohh wait... I did...

Gonna say this... RPG books have SERIOUS quality control issues.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 23, 2017, 11:10:32 am

That's same as anything, not just rpg books.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: tonnot98 on February 23, 2017, 02:04:26 pm

So I had the first session of a new campaign yesterday, and it ended in a near TPK. I had balanced out all the encounters on them having full group strength, but they split up instead, and I changed little about the encounters, just adding some guard NPCs to help them. 4 KO's (all of them) and 1 instakill. The actual total was something like 7 KO's because of crit deathsaves and healing. The instakill was a hobgoblin commander with a greatsword that crit the poor 2nd level warlock in half. We had cursed dice, too. Their first two attacks were Nat 1's, and then the two guard archers supporting one of the groups both Nat 1'd on the same turn. There were so many crit fails on their side and crit hits on mine, it was as if RNGesus himself didn't want them to live.

Still a fun session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 24, 2017, 03:18:40 pm

Why are "Actually running the game" guides so uncommon?

I am aware the DM can run the game anyway he wants... but GOODNESS some hints sure would be nice.

The rules and the flow are two entirely different things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 24, 2017, 03:26:39 pm

Style.  No two GM/DMs will run the game the same way, they will have different dice conventions, character creation allowances, reliance on miniatures, reliance on maps, and the list of things that vary from DM to DM just goes on and on.  So the reason you don't find much in the way of 'how to run the game at the table' guides is due to the fact that no one runs the table the same way, and the differences are just to big to cover effectively.  The best you can get are some general pointers and maybe some suggestions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on February 24, 2017, 03:28:14 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on February 24, 2017, 03:26:39 pm

Style.  No two GM/DMs will run the game the same way, they will have different dice conventions, character creation allowances, reliance on miniatures, reliance on maps, and the list of things that vary from DM to DM just goes on and on.  So the reason you don't find much in the way of 'how to run the game at the table' guides is due to the fact that no one runs the table the same way, and the differences are just to big to cover effectively.  The best you can get are some general pointers and maybe some suggestions.

Yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 24, 2017, 03:41:27 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on February 24, 2017, 03:28:14 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on February 24, 2017, 03:26:39 pm

Style.  No two GM/DMs will run the game the same way, they will have different dice conventions, character creation allowances, reliance on miniatures, reliance on maps, and the list of things that vary from DM to DM just goes on and on.  So the reason you don't find much in the way of 'how to run the game at the table' guides is due to the fact that no one runs the table the same way, and the differences are just to big to cover effectively.  The best you can get are some general pointers and maybe some suggestions.

Yeah.

some don't even give those general pointers and suggestions.

A how to run doesn't need to give you the exact formula of a game.

Numinera has a "how to run guide" that is a chapter, AFMBE doesn't (it just has quest hooks and ideas)

Dungeons and Dragons SOMETIMES dedicates most of the DM book to just "how to run" the game (Other times they just have more rules and no real guide... 5e at least had a guide focus)... Exalted doesn't.

There is no need for a huge long book (there are plenty of guides for that) or even more than a single chapter. Even pointers for "What is a lot" and "What is a little" can go a long way and that would take up as little as one or two pages and could easily smooth over dozens or hundreds of sessions.

Nor does this guide have to be "The" way to play. It only needs to be a jump off point for new DMs. In fact the more stable and solid the idea is the more of a basis they have for creating their own styles of play.

MIND YOU one other reason why many books don't have these guides is to sell you adventure paths later. Assuming those adventure paths even have anything in them (Yeah... quality isn't strong in some games... I'd almost say that NEVER trust a non-core book... flat out... no matter who made it)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 24, 2017, 03:53:34 pm

What's worked for my GMing is that I play in a game that I like and copy what I think the GM did right in overall style and gameplay.

Beyond that, you can look up stuff like The Angry GM or something similar. Here's (http://theangrygm.com/a-plot-b-plot/) a column on how to sort your plot threads, for instance, handy stuff that makes you think a little bit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 24, 2017, 04:00:17 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on February 24, 2017, 03:53:34 pm

What's worked for my GMing is that I play in a game that I like and copy what I think the GM did right in overall style and gameplay.

Beyond that, you can look up stuff like The Angry GM or something similar. Here's (http://theangrygm.com/a-plot-b-plot/) a column on how to sort your plot threads, for instance, handy stuff that makes you think a little bit.

Plotting is probably some of the easier things to do and doesn't REALLY need to be elucidated on. (well ok... Easier and harder... But I mean easier in terms of needing to refer to the book and bend things around the book.)

But I'll put it this way.

Your party finds a apple that can grow on low oxygen planets. It might actually be a great way to either terraform planets OR a source of food for low oxygen colonies.

How much is it worth? How famous does it make the party?

Some systems this is incredibly easy to get a good amount (I'd have no trouble in say... Battletech, dungeons and dragons, or Call of Cthulhu... or even Exalted)... Traveler? GOODNESS! I give freeken up!

Battletech easily does it because it has a fame system built right in and the money is easily understandable (AND it even has guides on how to handle money built right in. Earning 10% of your total worth is a good starting point). Dungeons and Dragons has a wealth per level system and fame is purely a story construct MOST of the time. Call of Cthulhu and Exalted have somewhat extrapolated money AND CoC isn't based around money so this is more of a bonus.

Traveler has very specific very sporatic all over the place money (fame is relatively fine). You are required to know the system intimately to attempt to penetrate this.

---

Dusk City Dwellers (A REALLY interesting game I wish had character creation)... Has no issue here because money is no object. Sure you steal, but all the characters are typically independently wealthy and are doing it for both the entertainment value and for station within their families. They have no real want for expensive jewelry and gold.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 24, 2017, 04:14:27 pm

How much it's worth (and how famous it makes you) is directly proportional to how much trouble the PCs went through to find it. You don't need the book to tell you an exact reward if you have, for instance, a wealth by level guideline as you do in D&D or Pathfinder or, failing that, a comparison of how much money your PCs have received in the past and an idea of how much you want to tempt them with in the future. It's not something where a hard and fast rule benefits you as much as a reasonable understanding of how much a spacebuck is worth in the economy.

As for that last bit about Dusk City Dwellers, have you considered Blades In The Dark? It's like a Powered By The Apocalypse game, except good! It's also got a lot of mechanics in place for exact rewards and an excellent grasp of making pacing as easy as possible. Oh, and a very generous section with GM tips from what I understand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 24, 2017, 04:18:59 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on February 24, 2017, 04:14:27 pm

A post, just keeping it here to refer to Harry Baldman's post.

Mind you monetary reward is just one example.

Quote from: Harry Baldman on February 24, 2017, 04:14:27 pm

As for that last bit about Dusk City Dwellers, have you considered Blades In The Dark? It's like a Powered By The Apocalypse game, except good! It's also got a lot of mechanics in place for exact rewards and an excellent grasp of making pacing as easy as possible.

I actually have no issue with Dusk City Dwellers apart from the lack of character creation (Well... unless there are other bad aspects...). I actually like the idea that money is no real object and the PCs are in it for the thrills and social standing even though they are essentially stealing what would make anyone else filthy rich. I was just using it as an interesting example of a game where the PCs often come into wealth but where it just flat out doesn't factor into the game.

But I'll check it out. Blades in the Dark?

If it can pull off heist games with a social-fu bend... along with a sort of "presence" it might be gold...

DANG it Dusk City Dwellers... I know you want to be pick up and play... but not even alternate character creation rules in like a side PDF?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 24, 2017, 04:23:57 pm

Yeah, but ultimately you'll be rewarding PCs with stuff, powers or friends that convert between each other (pro bono jobs should get you powers or friends and so forth) so the principle remains the same.

Quote from: Neonivek on February 24, 2017, 04:18:59 pm

But I'll check it out. Blades in the Dark?

If it can pull off heist games with a social-fu bend... along with a sort of "presence" it might be gold...

Its main great thing is that it takes away the need to plan a heist in that you make it up as you go along and then claim you planned it that way from the start because your character is considerably more competent than you are and works off more complete information than what your GM can effectively give you. It short-circuits a lot of the pace-killing stuff so you can get straight to stealing stuff or beating the shit out of people to steal their stuff or beating the shit out of people and making a point of not stealing their stuff, as the situation demands. I've tried it and it works as advertised - poached the better bits of Powered By The Apocalypse and other systems to make a nifty crime game (it's got a flow not unlike Fiasco sometimes).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 24, 2017, 04:28:53 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on February 24, 2017, 03:18:40 pm

Why are "Actually running the game" guides so uncommon?

I am aware the DM can run the game anyway he wants... but GOODNESS some hints sure would be nice.

The rules and the flow are two entirely different things.

Perhaps this could help. It's got some interesting stuff on game design, adventure design, and other design related issues. (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/p/index.html) His Quantum Ogre series is, IMHO, required reading. (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-how-illusion-can-rob-your-game-of.html)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on February 24, 2017, 04:30:58 pm

One thing I love that SOME RPGs do that I wish more would catch onto...

Is the idea of making stealth not all or nothing.

In Dusk City Dwellers often the penalty for failing stealth is getting more "heat" (which is a vague point system that represents a sort of... People catching onto that something is going on. You cannot entirely avoid heat, but you certainly don't want to generate more then possible). Mind you... Sort of... by often I mean sometimes... kind of...
-Ok I like the idea of how it works inside my own head... rather than how it might be implemented.

Because stealth is so all or nothing in a lot of games they walk the line of being either too risky to attempt... OR too powerful to fail. (Yay the Rogue problem! too weak and powerful at the same time)

So now you have people using stealth and while they dread failure... it isn't so bad that it is something to avoid at all costs.

-----
-----

Well blades in the dark is interesting... But it is VERY new and very untested...

It also seemed to be more popular during the kickstarter than it was released. (A lot like Exalted 3rd edition :P)

Without sufficient info or a real preview beyond quickplay guides... I can't really jump on it.

Quickstart sort of skims over a lot of the information (It is usually a lot like trying to learn how dungeons and dragons is done... by reading an adventure path) and YouTube sessions are how things are after everything is prepped.

THOUGH BONUS POINTS for having a horribly barf tastic pitch in the quickplay guides. It is far worse then even Bay12 is... for a taste

"Blades in the Dark is a combination of: Dishonored, Darksouls, and The Wire"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on February 27, 2017, 04:34:53 pm

Quote from: greatorder on February 27, 2017, 04:31:25 pm

Not sure if anyone's linked it before, but my brother showed me a d10000 wild surge chart (http://www.traykon.com/pdf/The_Net_Libram_of_Random_Magical_Effects.pdf), which includes such amazing things as "You appear behind the nearest king with a knife in your hand" and "You can only bark in the presence of royalty"

22: 8d4 of the caster's teeth become sentient.

Good lord.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 27, 2017, 04:44:32 pm

8939: All trees within 60 yards decide to form a government.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on February 27, 2017, 05:33:57 pm

Quote from: greatorder on February 27, 2017, 04:31:25 pm

Not sure if anyone's linked it before, but my brother showed me a d10000 wild surge chart (http://www.traykon.com/pdf/The_Net_Libram_of_Random_Magical_Effects.pdf), which includes such amazing things as "You appear behind the nearest king with a knife in your hand" and "You can only bark in the presence of royalty"

The wording of that bugs me. Does that mean that the caster is incapable of barking for whatever reason until they are in the presence of royalty? Or does it mean that the caster can do nothing except bark in the presence of royalty? Probable first answer: "yes" or "both".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 27, 2017, 05:43:48 pm

Former if you're human, latter if you're some form of canine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 27, 2017, 05:44:59 pm

I would assume the latter, since the former seems to be unnecessary programming-type logic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 27, 2017, 05:49:44 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 27, 2017, 04:44:32 pm

8939: All trees within 60 yards decide to form a government.

It's almost literally my favorite Rush song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnC88xBPkkc)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on February 27, 2017, 08:44:46 pm

Quote from: Sirus on February 27, 2017, 05:33:57 pm

Quote from: greatorder on February 27, 2017, 04:31:25 pm

Not sure if anyone's linked it before, but my brother showed me a d10000 wild surge chart (http://www.traykon.com/pdf/The_Net_Libram_of_Random_Magical_Effects.pdf), which includes such amazing things as "You appear behind the nearest king with a knife in your hand" and "You can only bark in the presence of royalty"

The wording of that bugs me. Does that mean that the caster is incapable of barking for whatever reason until they are in the presence of royalty? Or does it mean that the caster can do nothing except bark in the presence of royalty? Probable first answer: "yes" or "both".

Which makes you an excellent detector of royalty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Aseaheru on February 27, 2017, 08:48:35 pm

 Depends on how close to the line of succession is required. Twenty people ahead of you? twenty-thousand?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on February 28, 2017, 05:34:40 am

It's obviously not all solid gold, but there's a few diamonds in the rough in that list. I actually use this table for some kooky primal magic effects for the party's strange airship with a duration of 24 hours. Some of my favourites:

0182: All within 90 ft. check Int or forget who the caster is
0562 Caster can move at 3X normal speed when naked and unencumbered
0591: Caster can shine light out of his mouth at will

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on February 28, 2017, 05:42:19 am

0320 Caster always feels like he is being watched.

...so no change?

---

I may have found my least favourite enemy type: those that have high initiative, high stealth, and lurk in dark, twisting passages. And apparently teleportation. When an 18 on initiative isn't enough to avoid being sneak attacked four times or retaliate before the perpetrators flee...

Then when the alchemist grappled one to stop the nonsense, it apparently actually vanished from his grip.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 01, 2017, 05:36:31 am

Okay, so we got (Su) teleportation effect since no concentration when grappled?

High Stealth isn't too bad. Get some form of non-standard enemy detection like Scent, Tremorsense or the like. Anything that works against Invisible should be fine.

Sneak Attack while flat-footed? If you're playing Pathfinder, any form of long term flight will stop that nonsense. You are not considered flat-footed while flying. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly/#TOC-Avoid-Falling-After-Being-Attacked)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on March 01, 2017, 05:55:05 am

Most of those are tricky at level one. Also flying is a no-go in cramped tunnels anyway. :P

We made a tactical retreat and will come back with more of the party uninjured. The barbarian being forced to lurk at the back due to being on 2hp doesn't help anything. Also we brushed up on the rules for fighting Tiny creatures, and it looks like it's going to be free AoO day when we get back into the tunnels. That should help even the odds a little.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on March 01, 2017, 11:12:43 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 01, 2017, 05:36:31 am

Okay, so we got (Su) teleportation effect since no concentration when grappled?

High Stealth isn't too bad. Get some form of non-standard enemy detection like Scent, Tremorsense or the like. Anything that works against Invisible should be fine.

Sneak Attack while flat-footed? If you're playing Pathfinder, any form of long term flight will stop that nonsense. You are not considered flat-footed while flying. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly/#TOC-Avoid-Falling-After-Being-Attacked)

Ooh... what? I never knew that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 01, 2017, 12:50:52 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 01, 2017, 05:55:05 am

Most of those are tricky at level one. Also flying is a no-go in cramped tunnels anyway. :P

You're fighting all that silly nonsense at level 1?

Perhaps not that helpful either, but Glitterdust is a pretty good solution to something that's invisible or stealthed (particularly in a cramped tunnel since its low radius can be a bit of a bummer in open spaces). If the blindness procs, you might also make them unable to teleport!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on March 01, 2017, 08:21:53 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 01, 2017, 05:36:31 am

Sneak Attack while flat-footed? If you're playing Pathfinder, any form of long term flight will stop that nonsense. You are not considered flat-footed while flying. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly/#TOC-Avoid-Falling-After-Being-Attacked)

...What the heck. Isn't the fluff for being immune to flat-footed usually ninja-master stuff? So birds are just innately hyper-aware?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on March 01, 2017, 08:27:06 pm

I mean, they'd have to watch out for other birds and stuff. And flying probably requires good balance

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 01, 2017, 08:27:52 pm

Don't tell me you think it's easy. (http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=081610)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 01, 2017, 08:32:53 pm

It seems like a mistake they made while making the flying rules.

The Pathfinder rules for flying are... kind of... broken... Better to just ignore them and use the 3.5 system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 01, 2017, 11:49:36 pm

If your group is level 1, straight up go buy some guard dogs. 25 gp and a move action Handle Animal check to get it to perform the Guard trick. It has Scent, so it'll warn you if anything is nearby and avoid your group getting ambushed. Then during battle, command it to Attack. Free flanking is godlike at low levels, and it soaks up enemy attacks too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on March 02, 2017, 02:32:10 am

It seems somebody forgot "flat-footed" isn't being literal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 02, 2017, 01:14:44 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 02, 2017, 02:32:10 am

It seems somebody forgot "flat-footed" isn't being literal.

I think that's what the wording is there for, it's so an asshole GM can't go like "nuh uh, your feet are totally not moving so you get a sneak attack you flying bastard". What's meant is that you're not flat-footed while actively flying, not while you're all like hovering in place and what have you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on March 02, 2017, 01:20:28 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on March 02, 2017, 01:14:44 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 02, 2017, 02:32:10 am

It seems somebody forgot "flat-footed" isn't being literal.

I think that's what the wording is there for, it's so an asshole GM can't go like "nuh uh, your feet are totally not moving so you get a sneak attack you flying bastard". What's meant is that you're not flat-footed while actively flying, not while you're all like hovering in place and what have you.

Even then, you should still be able to be caught flat footed while in active flight. Birds that hunt birds often dive on them from above while both are on the wing. That should still count as a sneak attack.

Hell, a human flying in an open environment should be easier to sneak attack, not harder. We aren't built to pay attention in 3 dimension simultaneously.

Does pathfinder allow you to be caught flat footed while swimming?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on March 02, 2017, 09:36:12 pm

Quote from: Draignean on March 02, 2017, 01:20:28 pm

Does pathfinder allow you to be caught flat footed while swimming?

If it doesn't, that rule didn't make it onto the swim page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/swim/). The whole of the description from the conditions page honestly makes this more confusing.

Quote

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.

Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.

Like, nothing in that says anything that implies flying would make you flat-footed, right? So the only thing that seems like it would inspire a specific ruling in the fly rules is an asshole DM like Baldman said.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 03, 2017, 12:50:57 am

I'm hoping we get through the Downtime activities now that my group is back in town and onto some more adventuring soon. We've mostly taken care of loot sale via email, and tonight's table session should finish out all the downtime activities planned for retraining characters and researching and gathering information off screen.

So far I've got five adventure hooks available for the group in this small harbour city:

1. Local merchants offer bounty on the pirate ship Black Tide led by their pirate queen captain L’Atette Sherie on island allied with native halfing barbarian cannibals
2. Ebilet Stickwhistle, an ex-priest of Asmodeus, seeks escort to semi-intelligent demiplane Lexivore to retrieve lost documents, assures plane won’t digest them if they’re quick
3. Law enforcement officer Lieutenant Stena Taft seeks information about an underground smuggling operation specializing in trapped angel souls
4. Harbormaster ‘Tappy’ Tuttle wants assistance investigating recent loss of contact with Sharpwater Lighthouse on an isolated island far out to sea
5. Lady Wainscote seeks to hire group of negotiators to parlay release of her son Groven Wainscote captured by Aboleth during a shipwreck

I'm fairly certain that they'll take the ex-priest up on his offer, since one of the characters is trying to rescue their relatives from slavers who have strong ties to the church of Asmodeus. Still, doesn't hurt to be prepared. Hopefully they actually do something instead of just wander around looking for random encounters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 03, 2017, 01:14:56 am

Quote from: Oneir on March 02, 2017, 09:36:12 pm

Quote from: Draignean on March 02, 2017, 01:20:28 pm

Does pathfinder allow you to be caught flat footed while swimming?

If it doesn't, that rule didn't make it onto the swim page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/swim/). The whole of the description from the conditions page honestly makes this more confusing.

Quote

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.

Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.

Like, nothing in that says anything that implies flying would make you flat-footed, right? So the only thing that seems like it would inspire a specific ruling in the fly rules is an asshole DM like Baldman said.

It is very likely a typo for multiple reasons (As I said pathfinder flight rules are terrible >_<). It is in a completely random location (A skill section... AND not even in general... a section on how the fly skill is used).

Assuming it isn't just flat out nonsense... it might be from an older set of the rules where you used your CMD to remain in flight against an attack, instead of the fly skill. So it was more that you always get your CMD bonus to resist being knocked out of the air, regardless if you are flat-footed or not.

As said I stick to 3.5 rules and migrate them to Pathfinder if I need them. It gets pretty ridiculous with some creatures' really terrible flight abilities.

Or rather Pathfinder suffers because it is copying 3.5 directly but drastically changed the flight rules (It affects creatures with perfect and clumsy flight the most...)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 03, 2017, 09:33:27 am

...aaaaaaand we're done! Friday night session is complete, and the winner is...

NOTHING!!!

Seriously, the players didn't go for any of the adventure hooks. Honestly guys, what's hard about this? Someone needs a group of murderhobos to go kill stuff and take their magic things, and you're not fucking interested?!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 03, 2017, 01:53:07 pm

Ehh we are heroes... the adventure comes to us no matter what we do. (I actually had a comic of this... but it would take forever to find it)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on March 03, 2017, 04:36:52 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 03, 2017, 09:33:27 am

...aaaaaaand we're done! Friday night session is complete, and the winner is...

NOTHING!!!

Seriously, the players didn't go for any of the adventure hooks. Honestly guys, what's hard about this? Someone needs a group of murderhobos to go kill stuff and take their magic things, and you're not fucking interested?!

Players have a tendency to go against what the GM wants. As an example, in my last D&D session, the players, myself included, manage to defeat the overpowered enemy general and his army despite our GM wanting us to be captured as part of his adventure hook. Instead we pretended to surrender and unleashed all our strongest magic point-blank on the general.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on March 03, 2017, 05:10:32 pm

Quote from: Teneb on March 03, 2017, 04:36:52 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 03, 2017, 09:33:27 am

...aaaaaaand we're done! Friday night session is complete, and the winner is...

NOTHING!!!

Seriously, the players didn't go for any of the adventure hooks. Honestly guys, what's hard about this? Someone needs a group of murderhobos to go kill stuff and take their magic things, and you're not fucking interested?!

Players have a tendency to go against what the GM wants. As an example, in my last D&D session, the players, myself included, manage to defeat the overpowered enemy general and his army despite our GM wanting us to be captured as part of his adventure hook. Instead we pretended to surrender and unleashed all our strongest magic point-blank on the general.

Yeah, I'd say one rule of thumb for D&D is never have a plot that involves the players getting captured. It will almost never work out. And definitely don't try to keep them anywhere against their will, unless you're willing to just pull excuses out of your ass about why their escape attempts won't work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 03, 2017, 07:33:15 pm

Our DM had a good workaround for that one, the BBEG "captured" two players and menaced them into becoming his patsies, it later turned out it was a dream and if they'd stood up to him he would have been unable to do jack squat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 03, 2017, 07:45:14 pm

So he could have done a lot of things?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 04, 2017, 05:09:12 pm

Ok I have to say this...

There is this old Order of the Stick skit where a Wizard asks his assistant to go out and buy a ruby for him.

So he does and finds that they are half off... At which his master is furious with him because he needed a Ruby worth a certain price... But because they are half off, they are worth have as much.

Which I know is kind of pedantic and funny but... when I think about it. It is kind of magical and not a terrible idea for a system.

The Jewels have no inherent value as far as magic is concerned, it is only their value to the one casting it, what one had to exchange to obtain one... That is the actual source of magical potency.

A lot different then Gold being the literal magical exchange rate... enforced by the laws of physics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on March 04, 2017, 05:35:23 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 04, 2017, 05:09:12 pm

Ok I have to say this...

There is this old Order of the Stick skit where a Wizard asks his assistant to go out and buy a ruby for him.

So he does and finds that they are half off... At which his master is furious with him because he needed a Ruby worth a certain price... But because they are half off, they are worth have as much.

Which I know is kind of pedantic and funny but... when I think about it. It is kind of magical and not a terrible idea for a system.

The Jewels have no inherent value as far as magic is concerned, it is only their value to the one casting it, what one had to exchange to obtain one... That is the actual source of magical potency.

A lot different then Gold being the literal magical exchange rate... enforced by the laws of physics.

Now, I'd actually adjust that so gems had to weigh a certain weight to be able to be used. Instead of a ruby worth 100gp, have it be a ruby that weight 1 ounce, or 1/10 an ounce and have it cost, generally, 100gp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 04, 2017, 05:38:02 pm

In all fairness Gems are considered trade goods in Dungeons and Dragons... and Trade goods are bought and sold at the same price.

So weight and GP are sort of the same thing essentially :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 04, 2017, 07:13:51 pm

In our old post-necromantic-apocalypse campaign, buying things like rubies was sometimes tricky.  We just cast from treasure, instead - literally converting ancient coinage (or sacrificing it, for my divine spells) into the spell effects.  It wasn't any weirder than converting GP into XP for spell costs, which is an optional rule we used because we leveled based on progress rather than XP.

We did eventually come across a massive necropolis with a stable economy, but the prices for spell reagents would have been absurdly low due to a surplus of slave labor and utilized land (and a ruling class of liches).  There was one important gem there, though:  vampiric diamonds, used in the creation of new liches.  But those were less "resource cost", more "this is how you rip your own soul out".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 04, 2017, 07:28:14 pm

In other news, Wednesday I'm going to fight a dragon for the first time :o  And here I am, a human ranger... (Feral 1, Ranger 15, Scout 4)

Planning for it has been really...
Nonexistant.  No planning, nope.  We're just gonna charge in and hope for the best.  Perhaps I will attack it with my weapons, but who knows.
I am pretty excited though :D
Even though the dragon is made out of peppermint candy.  This mini-campaign about Christmas has been interesting like that.

I do need to pick one epic feat, actually...  I might actually go for damage reduction, even though it's just 3.  My character is already pretty tanky, but I don't know how to protect the others.
Well...
The psionic blink puppy will probably fusion dance with me at some point, but what about my hippogriff "wife".  Even with all those monk levels, dragons somehow fly faster >:(
My tiefling "daughter" is a jerk who kept trying to narc on us, so... I'm sure she'll be fine.
Also she's a warlock so she deserves to die.  At-will spellcasting like that?  Not in my 3.5e!!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 04, 2017, 08:01:09 pm

On the subject of gold, I always liked this story (not mine):

Why do magic items cost gold to create?

Because gold is magic. The first day I was an apprentice, I remember my Maestro asked me the simple question, "why can't we create gold?" I thought it was an odd question, but as he left me alone to think about it, I realized I'd heard of wizards creating fire, summoning water, producing force, and all other of objects and effects… but never of a Wizard just sitting in a tower summoning mounds of gold. You'd think if it was possible, someone would've done it by now right? So? Why haven't they?

It’s because gold is magic. Well, a physical manifestation and metaphysical conduit at the same time, but for your purposes it is magic. When you sit and look at the evidence laid out, how couldn't you come to this conclusion sooner? Let's take dragons, for an example. When you imagine a big bad dragon, the next thing you imagine is it guarding its hoard. Hoard of what? That's right: GOLD. Isn't it odd that an entity whose literal being is infused with magic just happens to have not only an insatiable, but uncanny magnetism towards large quantities of gold, along with the urge to acquire as much as possible? Possibly the "like-begets-like" principle, hmmm?

Let's look at Dwarfs next. Their history lies below ground, closest in proximity to the veins and shafts where gold accumulates and grows (yes, "grows"). They're the only race with an inborn resistance to magic. Isn't that curious? Almost as if there's a subtle inoculation against it by such proximity for generations...

Lastly, to get back to what exactly I am doing with all this gold when I'm making your lovely magic item, or all my scrolls. You're right that I'm not spending thousands of coins upon jewels and masterwork items to hold the magic in place. That's ludicrous, but if eldritch manipulators are spending money on high end items to imbue, it's probably a personal focusing preference. For myself, as you can see, I am working with normal mundane items. Technically I am transmogrifying via prestidigitation these elegant golden coins into their more metaphysically soluble powder form because essence diffusion is easier by an order of magnitude when working with particulates instead of a boatload of walletweights. With a certain amount of forceful application of will and choice incantations, you will notice the gold powder I am sprinkling and kneading on top of the object is absorbed by said object. Remember what I said about manifestation and conduit? So the gold is not only priming these boots to be receptive towards my spells, but it establishs a channel to arcane ley lines it order to keep the magic going. Yes, it is indeed very time consuming rubbing gold powder into an item one pinch at a time while maintaining the proper mental focus. There's a reason it takes us about eight hours for every thousand gold a magic item requires. You think a consortium of magic users got together and decided on union hours for magic making? Hell no. Its plain old, tedious work, but important work if you want it to function correctly.

Now, master-of-arms and all things armly, would you kindly let me focus on the task at hand so that when I'm done, we don’t have to worry about our Holy Dictator suffering from extreme vomiting and nausea whenever he puts his shoes on because I had to split my attention trying to condense decades of intense arcane study into an elementary discourse?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 04, 2017, 08:05:11 pm

Thanks Jimmy I love it!

Gold is basically Trilithium :P and exists in space and subspace :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 05, 2017, 12:27:44 am

Random encounter table hates us. A week or so overland trip, with one roll for the day, and one for the night, and we only get an encounter when the DM gets a 1 on a d6.

We fought a pair of Stone Giants, eight Fire Drakes, a Land Shark, an Adult White Dragon, a gargantuan stone statue Animated Object, three Axiomites, a Fire Giant, three Frost Giants, and two Vampires with four thralls. I might be forgetting more.

Encountering Being ambushed by Axiomites makes no sense, as they are Lawful Neutral outsiders dedicated to crafts in a Choatic Evil land full of giants and orcs. They have no reason to be here or be aggressive to us, so the DM just made them a group who've lived in the land for centuries, and just don't feel like leaving. They even set up a small blacksmithy, in case we want to buy anything. The campaign is a bit light on merchants.

The vampires were made up of an Antipaladin and a Sorceress. Even though they were a random encounter, there was a fair bit of lore behind them if you make the right Knowledge checks. That said, the Adventure Path has literally no details on pursuing them if you encounter them. Why have all this information on them then?

We also found a minor artifact; a magical prosthetic. No-one wanted it, since we all had limbs that we were rather attached to already. Of course, I didn't want to let such a great item go to waste, so I took one for the team. By which I mean I'm a greedy fucking lunatic. You see, you can't wear a prosthetic if you've got all your limbs.

A bit annoyed that you can't enchant an artifact. It grants a +2 Enhancement bonus to Strength, so a belt would render part of it useless. Thinking about it, there are many artifact items in Adventure Paths that are stuck as minor tools since they can't be upgraded further.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 05, 2017, 01:24:37 am

Well, typically bits that you need to attach to your body by cutting off other bits are the best kind of item.

Just ask Vecna.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 05, 2017, 01:30:41 am

I don't think that a guy who was ripped to bits so his bits could be used to replace other people's bits would be the best at judging how good bit-replacing bits are. He's probably a bit biased.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 05, 2017, 01:42:20 am

Quote

Encountering Axiomites makes no sense, as they are Lawful Neutral outsiders dedicated to crafts in a Choatic Evil land full of giants and orcs. They have no reason to be here or be aggressive to us, so the DM just made them a group who've lived in the land for centuries, and just don't feel like leaving. They even set up a small blacksmithy, in case we want to buy anything. The campaign is a bit light on merchants.

Doing a bit of research... Nope that is still normal. Ignoring that Axiomites oppose chaos and might create a base of operations there... They are also dedicated to understanding all the fundamental rules and principles of the universe and as such they should exist in all parts of the multiverse if they so can.

Not to mention that in terms of planes you really do occasionally find other planar beings in different places. There are a few levels of abaddon or the abyss that are Elysium fields maintained by powerful good aligned outsiders.

---

I mean... Axiomites are crafters sure... But they are also creatures of order attempting to understand the universe while also being strongly opposed to chaos to such an extent that they built an army of killer robots that seek out and destroy chaos on a whim.

They are crafters... but not like... Painters and pottery... More like... Technowizardry and god robots (Yes... the Axiomites built giant super killer robot gods... That make other robots)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 05, 2017, 02:16:31 am

But lore-wise in Pathfinder, the only Outsiders beyond Lastwall that aren't Celestials actively crusading against Orcs and Giants are the Demons that would come in from the Worldwound. Though in this adventure's point in the game's timeline, the Worldwound has been sealed.

Plus Axiomites wouldn't be actively ambushing people just walking along a road. It wouldn't make sense for them to do so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 05, 2017, 03:17:34 am

The Axiomites are interplanar lawyers here to serve a subpoena for blatant RAW violation by one of the PCs. Their trial is conducted immediately, the PC is found guilty by the court, and they're sentenced to death.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 05, 2017, 09:46:27 am

Or sentenced to one week imprisonment, and only if they're a CR-appropriate challenge.
If they do win, they store the PCs in a sturdy but poorly-locked cage with one guard, and their seized possessions in clear view.
But ideally the Axiomites just die, carrying they're reasonably valuable magic items.

There is a way that such things are meant to go.

Edit:  Oh and if they're over or underpowered, they give the party a quest instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 05, 2017, 10:08:06 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 05, 2017, 12:27:44 am

We fought a pair of Stone Giants, eight Fire Drakes, a Land Shark, an Adult White Dragon, a gargantuan stone statue Animated Object, three Axiomites, a Fire Giant, three Frost Giants, and two Vampires with four thralls. I might be forgetting more.

This becomes hilarious if you reimagine it as all of them trying to sell you something on the roadside.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Hanslanda on March 05, 2017, 10:21:14 am

Ptw

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 05, 2017, 12:35:27 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 05, 2017, 03:17:34 am

The Axiomites are interplanar lawyers here to serve a subpoena for blatant RAW violation by one of the PCs. Their trial is conducted immediately, the PC is found guilty by the court, and they're sentenced to death.

If an Axiomite actually did that... You probably did something REALLLLLLLY bad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 05, 2017, 05:09:16 pm

A question for those who play Pathfinder:

Anyone recommend an adventure path in the level 10 player range? I'm interested to see what sort of challenges official publications use for later levels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 06, 2017, 02:22:26 pm

sorry Jimmy I don't.

After scouring simple books and complex books I've come to somewhat of an interesting thought.

In many ways I kind of love how both are handled and kind of wish they could be combined in some way.

The BEST part of some simple games is that the classes/roles/abilities are a lot more pronounced and their abilities much better reflected. Are you an assassin? Well you can assassinate, no ifs ands or buts. More complex systems often feel like they exist to sort of weasel you out of your character or that are a constant fight to actually be what you want to be.

But I love complex systems and between the two I'd prefer to stick with these. Just the amount you can do, build, or become is immense while still making it more then a cosmetic difference (sure you can be a dragon in... FateRPG... But you are just as much a dragon as a bug is).

---

To give an example of a game that gets close enough to use as an example...

Shadowrun returns series. In it there are knowledge skills and whenever you put a point into knowledge you just immediately know everything about a topic... You don't have to roll... you are an expert in this topic! If you don't know about it, then you need to do some footwork. Same time you do have a knowledge score that could reasonably be used outside of that role (So you have absolute abilities that flat out works... And a roll if needed ability)

Yet the game doesn't skimp on all the little skills, attributes, and abilities you can collect either.

It is a simplified shadowrun and you are kind of more railroaded... But the example is good enough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 06, 2017, 04:52:19 pm

http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Pathfinder_Modules

You can sort modules by level here. Haven't played any modules myself. Only ever Paths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on March 07, 2017, 02:26:15 am

This campaign is glorious. Everyone in the party has low or average charisma except for the aasimar oracle, the techslinger's gun is broken, and the tiefling alchemist doesn't quite seem to realise that not everyone has fire resistance.

This has led to the dwarf zen archer hitting on every female NPC in a low-key fashion, the alchemist arguing with the aasimar about which of them has the worse deal, and the human barbarian loudly and clearly hailing Gorum at every opportunity, even when inappropriate. For instance, when the tiefling complains of the voices in his head telling him to kill everyone.

The local casino giving us 100gp vouchers didn't end well for them. The halfling rogue got lucky and skinned them, the alchemist got hammered on dubious cocktails, and the zen archer couldn't hold his drink.

And we finally dealt with those jinkins (the stealthy critters)! We were fairly apprehensive, but after some debate decided that half of us would go sprinting in through one tunnel to try to surprise them and the other half would sneak around the side. That went pretty well, until the rogue "disarmed" a trap by triggering it and then chugging a Cure Light Wounds potion. The alchemist managed to avoid one tripwire and then take minimum damage from another, so that started out fairly suboptimally.

Luckily, after the barbarian moved ahead of the rogue with a readied action to eviscerate any jinkins, one of them did jump out, rolled fairly low damage, and then promptly lost its head to a good roll. That cleaned up the stealthy side.

The rogue just barely disabled the last tripwire without triggering it, after which another jinking popped out of practically nowhere to gank the alchemist. Unfortunately for the jinkin, the zen archer and the crossbow-armed techslinger were both on watch and it got skewered pronto. We'd armed ourselves with cold iron in the town before heading in, since we now knew we'd be facing jinkins, so their DR wasn't saving them.

This was where things started getting spicier. We could only see one jinkin left, standing against the far wall of a small cavern with a short drop into it. At that point the barbarian, being a barbarian, and having a +9 acrobatics check decided to run across straight to the jinkin to attempt to finish it off quickly. Unfortunately, he flubbed the DC 15 to not fall on his face when jumping down the cliff. Situation: barbarian is prone at the bottom of the cliff. Everyone else is near the top of the cliff. There is only one jinkin left in sight. It teleports away, after the alchemist hurls a bomb across the cavern.

The more astute of our readers may know what happened next. The oracle climbed down the ledge, and... we got jumped by two more jinkins. A moment later, the techslinger put a bolt into one of them, the zen archer finished it off, and the barbarian stood up and missed his swing against the last jinkin. It made to teleport away, but the alchemist was wise to it, and hatched a cunning plan: since the aasimar had acid resistance, he could throw an acid bomb to splash both the jinkin and the oracle. The acid took the jinkin down, and we'd finally cleared the area!

At minimal, cost, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on March 07, 2017, 11:52:56 am

So we're playing Carrion Crown and we found the Warden Wife ghost. And lots of shitty rooms. Almost lost a PC to this room with brandy irons. We found this court room that was super cold and gives off negative energy damage. We have a vampire-ey paladin, and she was pretty chill in that room.

I'm going to go into town and get like some playing cards or domino set. She been stuck in this room for centuries.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 10, 2017, 09:50:13 am

So finally my level 10 group looped all the way back around to the very first dungeon that they encountered at level 1 and tried the optional hidden challenge area that was CR 5.

Of course they beat the CR 5 encounter like a foster child.

I also gave them an optional underwater area that they could explore, and they took it hook, line and sinker.

Heh...

Hah...

Hahah....

WHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Hanslanda on March 10, 2017, 04:27:03 pm

CR20 area is a go :p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 10, 2017, 04:40:10 pm

Being underwater is in and of itself a CR 5 challenge, why would anyone ever go there?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 10, 2017, 06:39:02 pm

It's not so bad if you can swim. Not that anyone ever puts ranks in Swim unless they know it's coming up. Though if there are no casters with water-breathing or access to a shop for potions, it will be hell.

Hope no-one is hyper-focused on ranged combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 10, 2017, 08:32:11 pm

Not just ranged combat (in 3.5e, I think PF too).  Might want to search this page for "Underwater Combat":  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm

Without having Freedom of Movement, slashing and bludgeoning attacks are -2 and deal half damage.  There's a reason mer-creatures use tridents so much!  There are movement effects too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 10, 2017, 08:50:55 pm

For some reason I had it in my head that bludgeoning had -2 to to-hit and damage was halved, as normal, but slashing only took a -2 to to-hit and damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 10, 2017, 09:46:37 pm

Makes sense to me that slashing would be less penalized than bludgeoning, but not in 3.5e I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 11, 2017, 10:30:15 pm

My friend suggested I make my own system... so after thinking about it for a while I went to him

"Well if I am going to make my own system, I am going to make something I'd want"

and he was like "Yeah that is kind of how it works"

So now I am in the impossible game!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 11, 2017, 11:02:07 pm

Another campaign. Hell's Vengeance, for evil people.

I'm an Anti-paladin, playing with a Psychic, an Archeologist Bard, a Juju Oracle, and a Cleric. Most of us are Dhampir because healing is pretty damn difficult in an Evil campaign.

We ended up getting mauled by dogs in the first encounter. I can't hit for shit.

I'm a tiny bit upset that we didn't play Giantslayer this session, but that's okay. I managed to find a way to use a Huge Rifle without penalty, which is a hilarious mental image. I'd basically be carrying a railgun around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2017, 03:26:38 am

Alright, brainstorming time.

So the group's potentially committed to exploring the aquatic sections of an ancient ruined castle. The backstory for this castle was that a mad nobleman decided to build a castle in a swamp. It sank into the swamp. He built a second one. That sank into the swamp. He built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. Eventually the mad noble and his family were slaughtered by a passing adventurer on his son's wedding day.

We've already found and cleared the first section of the castle. I still have potentially three more levels to create, and can theme each as I please.

I'm considering going some form of Cthulhu style madness as the source of the nobleman's obsession with building a castle on this location. Plenty of aberrations in the book that are aquatic too.

Any suggestions on the themes of each level? Underwater is fun for one, though dry levels deeper down might be even more interesting. Any other strange effects or features you can think would be good ambience for a madness themed underwater swamp castle dungeon?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on March 12, 2017, 03:40:53 am

One level doesn't even have any monsters or anything, but is full of poison ivy. That's fire-resistant because of magical adaptation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 12, 2017, 03:47:16 am

Keep in mind that swamp water is not... clean. Swamp water is gross:

It contains unrotted bits of organic matter, is high in carbon dioxide gas and other acids, is very low oxygen, etc.

Any castle levels that submerged/sank in that stuff is going to be full of mostly muck rather than water. The parts that are actually in water, are going to be in VILE, HORRIBLE water.

Leeches, venomous snakes, biting insects (at the surface), toxic flora, rampant diseases, etc will all abound. If you want a Lovecraftian demigod, Tsathoggua (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsathoggua), the frog god, seems like a good choice. It is worshiped heavily by the K'n-Yan people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27n-yan), who are HIGHLY, HIGHLY telepathic, and who live deep underground.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 12, 2017, 03:48:24 am

One floor is basically made of gore. Like a living level. Further inspection reveals the players are actually inside an ancient, eldritch whale. It doesn't seem to mind.

I've been wanting to play a body-horror style character for a while, but can't see too many ways to do it. Best option I've come up with is to reflavour a Synthesist Summoner and use Evolution Surge rather liberally.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 12, 2017, 03:54:44 am

I rather like Lovecraft's take on "body horror"--

A goul grows up without any parents inside a forgotten castle, filled with relics of a dead people. There are no mirrors, or any means for the creature to see itself, so it believes it is one of the people that once inhabited the castle.  It manages to leave the castle, and comes in contact with normal people, who flee in terror from it. It is despondent over this, then sees itself in a mirror for the first time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outsider_(short_story)

I think it fits better with the GP's narrative anyway. :P It could be an NPC encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 12, 2017, 06:41:52 am

Have one of the flooded levels be frozen instead, because of [reason]. You could have aquatic monsters, merfolk, whatever frozen mid-battle, or mid-fleeing-from-something. Bonus points if they're really high-level monsters and obviously terrified. Extra fun if something the players do ends up having the ice melt, and then they find out not everything in there is really dead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 12, 2017, 07:37:56 am

Have something shoot ink to create underwater Darkness (screw you, darkvision!). And also something that shoots lightning!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on March 12, 2017, 08:48:37 am

Walls rearrange themselves...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on March 12, 2017, 08:59:16 am

Another option besides "Ancient Swamp God" would be an eldritch intelligence obsessed with construction and/or unholy geometries (hence the king's fixation on endless rebuilding). So the final level, which has presumably either sunk close to its body or had the most time to influence, is full of fractal recombinations of human architecture, rearranged by this inhuman mind. Opens up constructs and outsiders, and things that are half-merged with the building or its furniture.

You could have a fourth level which is the actual body/temple/spaceship of whatever lovecraftian thing is to blame, regardless of its exact nature.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MidnightJaguar on March 12, 2017, 11:56:47 am

maybe like a village of horribly mutated and inbdred swamp cultists? They've been there since the gal of the first castle and have been driven made by the undlying elderitch ambominations and complete isolation from the outside world?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 14, 2017, 07:34:22 pm

Been looking over various Natural Attack builds, and now I'm wondering. Are there actually any creatures out there that are not proficient with Natural Weapons? I've seen proficiency with Natural Attacks mentioned more than a few times in Pathfinder, so potentially it could happen. Yes, I know I'm hunting for something that doesn't exist. Not the first time.

I'm still looking for the creature with DR/Gold mentioned in the Rare-Metal Infusion for the Geokinetist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on March 14, 2017, 08:18:59 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 14, 2017, 07:34:22 pm

Been looking over various Natural Attack builds, and now I'm wondering. Are there actually any creatures out there that are not proficient with Natural Weapons? I've seen proficiency with Natural Attacks mentioned more than a few times in Pathfinder, so potentially it could happen. Yes, I know I'm hunting for something that doesn't exist. Not the first time.

I'm still looking for the creature with DR/Gold mentioned in the Rare-Metal Infusion for the Geokinetist.

As I recall, in 3.5 D&D, non-war horses get some malus to attacking with their teeth and hooves as compared to war horses. I don't actually recall if that's because they're not considered proficient or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on March 14, 2017, 08:42:21 pm

In 3.5 non war horses are worse with their kicks because it counts as a secondary natural attack for them, and they have no primary natural attack at all. I don't know how common it is to have secondary but no primary natural weapons, afaik it's pretty dang rare, maybe even unique? This isn't quite the same as being non proficient... Anyway, as for not being proficient with a natural weapon... I don't think that's something that could happen in 3.5... Maybe in pathfinder which I know nothing about is different? Like, technically humanoids are not explicitly proficient with natural weapons (unlike all the other various hd which are either proficient with their natural weapons explicitly or just with all weapons that they have.) So I guess arguably the druid or barbarian transforming into a bear might take a non proficiency penalty to his claw swipes. I'd say that's kinda a silly ruling to make but I can't find anything that makes it incorrect (although there's probably an errata out there somewhere or something.) Of course, who knows in the wide world of splat books it's perfectly conceivable that somewhere out there is something that isn't proficient with natural weapons because of some snowflake special ability.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 14, 2017, 08:47:51 pm

ninja'd
Huh yeah, it's a little weird.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm
Normal horses have two hoof attacks (and no bite).  But both attacks are treated as secondary, they have no primary attack.  That means a -5, and their strength bonus to *damage* is halved.  Even for their standard-action attack (1 hoof).

Warhorse's 2 hoof attacks are primary, and they get a secondary bite (-5).

For the curious, the reason a light horse's hooves are -2 total is:
2 from Base Attack Bonus
+2 from strength
-5 for being secondary
-1 due to being large

On a side note, we're making Shadowrun 5th edition characters.  Looks like we'll have a rigger, a decker, and an adept (me).
Basically a craven drone operator (with katana-drones), combat-hacker (like in E.Y.E but better, hack guns and implants over wifi), and a monk with a gun and astral vision.
This is our first time, including the GM, pretty excited!  Advice welcome (:

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on March 14, 2017, 08:59:16 pm

I guess try to get the rules you're going to use set straight before you play, especially for hacking and drones. Shadowrun 5E rules are basically an incomplete clusterfuck when it comes to the more complex parts of the system. The game I played in fell apart because we realized that the rules were basically just a giant semi pointless morass and we didn't want to bother to homerule our way out of them. I personally found the magic rules frustrating but playable with only some homeruling, although I didn't actually bother to learn how guns worked since I just went with magic missiles which probably helped me out. (I believe shooting someone with magic is about the most straightforward thing you can do in the system.)

Also combat was surprisingly nonlethal, although I guess your mileage may vary depending on how tough your characters are and how your gm focuses his fire, but we found that even with two groups of people spraying each other down with high power rifles and machine guns people only rarely got real injuries. So don't worry too much about hurting the opposition when you snipe them in the head.

Edit: Also the games not necessarily balanced for combat, but that's probably okay if your game isn't exclusively combat focused.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 14, 2017, 10:04:17 pm

When my group was last checking out Shadowrun 5, I ended up spending far too long trying to work out the carrying capacity of vehicles, as they are not listed, as far as I remember.

They do have rules for how much each seat of the vehicle may hold if you run out of space though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: ShoesandHats on March 14, 2017, 10:18:36 pm

I've been planning out a DnD campaign to DM for my friends. The problem is, this is my first experience playing DnD, let alone being the DM, so I'm kind of flying by the seat of my pants here. I have a map, I have a general idea of what the main goal of the campaign will be, and I have an okay idea of what the first adventure/dungeon will be like. However, the only parts of my world that I've really fleshed out are those that pertain directly to the main story and the first adventure.

I'm worried that the players will either a) feel like they're being railroaded or b) end up in a part of the world that I haven't thought about at all and have nothing to do.

Here's what I've got so far. Sorry if it sounds a little awkward, this was all written for my own reference:

Spoiler: Summary (click to show/hide)

Fyr is the sun. Fyr used to be part of a binary system with another star called Maki. Fyr’s human worshippers considered Fyr and Maki rivals. Powerful magic users created an artifact intended to drive Maki away. It succeeded, but not in the way they had hoped. Maki was furious not only at humanity’s attempts to banish it, but also at its twin’s unwillingness to stop them. Maki left, but not without taking revenge on those who angered him. Fyr’s human worshippers were warped into what are now called Orcs. This event triggered a chaotic era of struggle between the Orcs and an alliance of non-humans and humans who had never worshipped Fyr. The large human empire that had occupied the large majority of the land in Alemic fractured into a number of nations. The Orcs were driven into the desert between Alemic and Oraya, as well as past the mountains of Eralta.

Maki is still visible in the night sky as a red star. To most races, it appears about as bright as most other stars, but Orcs see it as being much brighter. They experience a sharp headache whenever they lay eyes on it, along with a surge of anger. Half-Orcs are affected by this to a degree, but not nearly as much as pure Orcs.

These events are ancient history, and although they are fairly well known among those with an adequate education in history, the creation of the artifact that triggered them is only known to a select few.

The artifact was powered partly by the magic from the River Brahm, and partly by a powerful black dragon, Leonard’s ancient ancestor. The party will (probably) encounter the artifact in its original location, the ruins it inhabits unearthed by a mining operation near the split of the river. When Leonard comes into the vicinity of the artifact (or maybe touches it?) his ancestral magic will kickstart it into action, inadvertently "waking" Maki and sending him on a direct course to Oberon, the planet of our setting.

The Order of Iryth is an order of monks that resides in the mountains/highlands surrounding High Lake Brahm. The order was originally established to serve as stewards of world knowledge, but their role grew to include the collection and curation of knowledge. They sometimes decide that knowledge is simply too dangerous or disruptive to be available to the general public. When this happens, they place evidence of this information into a pond in/around their mission. Every full moon, Iryth passes directly over High Lake Brahm, as well as over the pond. Iryth takes this information and judges its threat level herself. If she deems it dangerous as well, this knowledge is purged from the minds of everyone except those who have drunk from the pond.

Spoiler: World Map (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/CpMXUbo.png)

For context, the eastern end of the largest landmass is Alemic while the western end is Oraya.

I'd really appreciate any worldbuilding input and general tips for a new DM with new players. Also, this is my first time posting on this forum in a couple years, so, uh, hi again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on March 14, 2017, 11:05:22 pm

The trick is really to just go with what your players want. Some players will go off and do random things instead of chasing down plot hooks while others prefer a more DM-directed approach. The example I remember best was this mammoth story about one group and this portal to the Elemental Plane of Salt. Because salt is quite valuable, the party dropped the main plot completely to mine it and become obscenely rich. Instead of trying to usher them down the path that was planned for the campaign, the DM instead adopted new plotlines related to the party being basically in control of a magical interplaner merchant empire. While that's obviously a bit of an extreme example, putting treasure wherever the PCs decide to dig is generally a good plan. Make whatever they're trying to pursue fun and interesting. In general, keep spare encounters and NPCs on hand in case you need them. Even just a sheet with some random names and quirks on them does wonders to make the world seem bigger then it is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on March 15, 2017, 03:18:41 am

With new players, I'd advise starting them off in a plot hook if at all possible. Maybe a villain kicks in the tavern door or some such. Make it big, obvious, and unavoidable. Helps to avoid the choice paralysis of "So we can do anything?"

I'd also not worry too much about the macro details. Build parts of the world as needed, or you'll end up wasting large amounts of effort as the players do something you'd never have guessed.

Try not to make goals too tied to a location. It helps to be able to move them in front of players. Railroading without actually railroading them :P


Don't expect a huge amount from your first session as everyone in the group is figuring out the whole rpg thing. That'll take a bit of time, after which you might notice a couple of people throw the group dynamic out of whack. Don't worry about it. It happens more or less unavoidably. That said, have fun :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 15, 2017, 05:11:13 am

Make sure the players create characters with their own hooks in mind that you can tie into things that occur around the world, and also tie them in with each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 15, 2017, 05:13:43 am

Quote from: Arcvasti on March 14, 2017, 11:05:22 pm

The trick is really to just go with what your players want.

Yeah with new DMs there are pretty much two strategies you want to try as far as game crafting
-Player Centric Approach: Basically try to craft the game entirely around what the players want to do. Players USUALLY will like a campaign that caters to them regardless of content.
-DM centric approach: Also valid you give prospective players what the game is about so there are no surprises. This is more of a learning exercise and with the right players can be very beneficial.

You just don't want to bog yourself down too too much.

Quote from: sjm9876 on March 15, 2017, 03:18:41 am

I'd also not worry too much about the macro details. Build parts of the world as needed, or you'll end up wasting large amounts of effort as the players do something you'd never have guessed.

Actually lets take this and talk about benefit of the doubt or rather positive things... As well as having a flexible plan

If you are doing your job right the players will believe you planned everything out. So don't worry too much about not always having a plan because players will just project whatever happens as a long extended plan.

AS WELL! Listen to your players closely. They make a lot of assumptions out loud based on the campaign and where it is going and here is a SUPER SECRET no one will tell you!

The players... Don't have access to your script... AND your script isn't written in stone.

Change it. Never be afraid to change the script! Especially according to how your players are tackling the campaign. You don't always need to reward them for bad ideas (As that can make them feel like their actions have no real meaning), but if they don't trust someone who you never intended to be untrustworthy... You can totally just make them a villain.

But always ALWAYS pretend like it was always the plan! That is where the magic comes from. You aren't putting on a play, you are performing a magic act!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 15, 2017, 06:03:23 am

First, great job with the map!

Second, don't forget to put a scale on that thing. I generally put about 300 miles between major sites on my map (anything from Small Town up to Metropolis), with minor hamlets and villages every 50-100 miles between that aren't represented on the world map because they're so insignificant no self respecting cartographer would include them.

Third, regarding world building and quest objectives, I ask my players to give me two things when they create their character. First is an NPC ally they know, and second is an NPC enemy they have. This backstory for their character creates reasons they might help someone or reasons their character might get in trouble. You'd be amazed how much detail some players put into their character's backstory! It can do a lot of the fleshing out work for you to have a focus for one character's objectives in their adventuring life.

Finally, I usually run about three to five potential sidequests in each location my players visit. Last major town, they could have helped clear a band of pirates from the high seas, travelled to a semi-sentient demi-plane with a slightly crazy ex-priest of Asmodeus, unravelled the plans of a group of smugglers trading in angel souls, investigated the sudden mysterious loss of contact with a lighthouse far out to sea, or helped a rich noblewoman rescue her only heir from slavery to Aboleth. The group chose to do none of them.

So if I can give you any advice as a fellow sandbox DM, it's to have potential material prepped but not spend too much time fleshing it out until the players actually commit to something. Currently they've returned to their ruined castle stronghold that they're rebuilding in preparation to go rescue three NPC relatives from the southern theocratic nation of slavers. Of course, they haven't factored in that the local Alchemist's Guild has a bounty on their head for assisting a rogue alchemist who looted their guild treasury. I've got plans for them to get a visit by several strong-arms in the near future now that they're back at home. They also pissed off an efreeti by denying him slaves to take home after freeing him from a summoner's circle, and this efreeti might well make a return appearance at a rather inopportune moment. Keep track of times your players fuck up, and let it come back to bite them in the ass later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on March 15, 2017, 12:44:09 pm

You're gonna wanna listen to "Because I Got High" while reading this. That was he theme of my last session. Why? I'm gonna tell you

My party is playing Curse of Strahd and they're in Vallaki (I spelled that wrong I think but I don't care right now, it's irrelevant). They noticed they're being followed by a spy (those who know the campaign know who I'm talking about) and they're trying to find the Saint's bones. They tell the paladin to go distract him. Well, the paladin's player is known to do some ridiculous shit, such as fighting an Orc warchief one on one at level 1 AND WINNING (they were supposed to leave, being they were all mostly dead).

Anyway, someone made a joke saying he should use thunderous smite on something and throw it. No, what this guy does is he goes over behind a house near the spy, starts to remove some of the lower parts of her armor (it's a male playing a female character) and drops her trousers and begins to take a shit in public. Oh no, it doesn't stop here. He specifies that as it's coming out, he casts thundering smite on his feces as it's coming out and, I know as a DM, I shouldn't have allowed it, but if a monkey can throw poop as a method of self defence, why wouldn't it count as a weapon? So he does his thing and it hits the ground. It leaves a small crater and EVERYONE in town hears it as a loud crack of thunder is heard. Just as it hits the ground, someone saw her, went to go report it and then got scared and ran off.

The spy went to go check it out, succeeding in the distraction, and the paladin had to deal with not having anything to wipe with.

Then, the next session comes by (because that was the end of the previous session) and the Druid, who is played by my girlfriend, decided she wanted to have the equivalent of marijuana in my world and I just threw out a random name, and she said she had it (and I don't know when I agreed to it but I'm rolling with it). She gets high and then tries to find the wereravens by turning into a parrot. She fumbles around, and because she isn't high enough level, she just kind of hobbles about trying to fly but she can't, and a wereraven happens to pick her up and start to care for her. She then goes "like... SQWAK man..." In a stoner voice and then the wereraven, knowing she's a Druid, gives her to the paladin.

She turns back into normal form and then the paladin grabs her joint and, being a Phoenix sorcerer, she burns it. I checked the paladin's con score and upon rolling, she fumbled and got high. She then stumbled into the town and blacked out.

The morning comes and the paladin wakes up in the stocks. Why they're still a paladin was because, despite the public intoxication, the paladin did none of that to her own will; it was an accident.

So the Druid and the artificer find him while the wizard chills at the bar knowing this is gonna be a shitshow. the Druid says she'll talk to the baron about releasing him, but the artificer, who's a pirate, just wanders off to go set him free. Well, the artificer is a gnome, and she's short and light for one too, and she's caught trying to free him and thrown on the stocks herself. Unfortunately, they aren't gnome sized and Izek is known to be kind of an idiot, so she can freely move her hands and deal with her situation. She pours alchemist acid on the lock and breaks free, and then a child, like in Projared's video, spots them and says she's trying to Escape. They see the lock and a broken vial of acid, and they go to bring her to th baron's house (I was aiming for the closet that they had in there) and then the paladin, with an 18 to strength and settin himself on fire, forces the lock open and thinks the gnome is gonna die, so he commands the one carrying her to drop her and she high tails it out, and then he compelled duels Izek to get him to stop chasing her and says "I will not fight you".

Izek uses his horn to rally the town Militia and suddenly, he's surrounded. Her player says "I tell them while putting my hands up and say "this was all a complete misunderstanding!" He rolls, and in my head, even if he rolled high, he won't succee- NAT 20.

He goes and does that and the Druid, happening to be right on time, flashes a paper stating the release of the paladin. Izek doesn't like it, but he has to agree, and the paladin goes free. HOWEVER, the artificer broke property, and after the paladin pays for it, gets a day in the stocks for upsetting the populace.

So after that goes on, the paladin, still upset at the Druid, goes up to her while she's trying to work for the inn as a sexy barmaid and uses divine favor (or something like that) and proceeds to smack her ass as revenge for getting him high. While I know it's her own damn fault, I let it happen, she calls for help, and wereravens take the paladin outside, beat the shit out of him, and leave him outside. Oh, and did I mention the ass slapping also made him lose his paladin powers?

Next day happens and it's the festival of the blazing sun, and the whole thing happens and then as the guy is being dragged, the former paladin speaks out and says that's over excessive. Baron calls him out for being a pardoned criminal. She then says they did more good for the village and that he should be grateful... But the only things they did was on their own and no one talked about it, which was the vampires in the coffin maker's shop and returning he bones. He mentioned the bones and the wizard, knowing shit was going to go down, said she's on her own (because the bones are to be kept secret). So for speaking out, the baron orders him to be dragged as well, but he sets the rope on fire with the Phoenix powers, and releases the other man as well AND lighting the baron's rear end on fire.

The baron then says they cannot let someone this dangerous to them live, and they take him to the gallows. The paladin, restrained and doused by fire, prays as she is taken to what may be her final stop.

Lucky her, a second scripted event takes place and the tiger incident happens. The paladin has reduce cast on him by the wizard and told to run while everyone else starts to scatter. The artificer runs to the inn to grab everyone's belongings because she has a bag of holding, Rictavio is dealing with the tiger, and Izek begins chasing the tiny paladin but loses her after the Druid cast entangle on him (which she said was aimed for the tiger, but the tiger is too big (which he was since the wizard, letting the paladin get through t, cast enlarge on the tiger (while I'm not supposed to allow it, it made for an interesting situation, so I allowed it)).

The party then causes more chaos, as the Druid begins casting thunder wave outside of town, making the people think they're under attack, and Izek is still entangled while Rictavio gathers the party on his cart, hides them inside with the tiger, and flees.

It is at this point that you realized most of these events happened

Because she got high
because she got high
because she got high

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 15, 2017, 01:11:21 pm

@ShoesandHats: Here in Bay 12, often enough we do world building with a forum game where the players work on designing the world. If sufficiently structured, masterpieces (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152612.msg6450208#msg6450208) can be wrought.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 16, 2017, 05:29:42 pm

I gotta say, after level 10 the prep work for a session is really picking up!

I've built my Alchemist Guild encounter yesterday, and it's shaping up to be a nasty one.

To start, I took a Yamabushi Tengu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/oni/oni-yamabushi-tengu/) and gave him 8 levels of Samurai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/) Katana Duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/flaming-crab-games-samurai-archetypes/katana-duelist/). In character he's the group's hired strongarm, a ronin warrior that's been purchased by the guild for cash. Out of character he's there to deliver a bunch of loot to the group, mainly a swag new katana for the group's samurai who's been letting himself get short-changed a lot when the loot gets split.

Next we've got an Alchemical Golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-alchemical/), which is both a distraction to let the four alchemists buff before their fight as well as a way to offset the big haul of loot from the first encounter with a creature that doesn't drop any treasure.

Finally we've got four alchemists, two of which are 8th level Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo-alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph/) Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo-alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist/) Alchemists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/), the other two 8th level Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/scout/) Underground Chemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/underground-chemist/) Unchained Rogues (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/).

I'm particularly proud of these two combinations, since they both deal full Sneak Attack damage. The Alchemists buff out to be Large size with AC 34 and get two Trip attempts at CMB +22 and 4 natural attacks at +11 each full attack. The Unchained Rogues only get a single attack per round, but it's a +13 ranged touch splash weapon that deals 6d6+2 and 1 Strength or Dexterity damage per hit.

All four only have about 50 hp each, so they're not too difficult to kill. But they'll definitely bring a nasty amount of pain on the group and reinforce that the Alchemist's Guild is both definitely the local equivalent of a Thieves Guild, and that they are not to be trifled with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: RazielReaver on March 17, 2017, 06:28:17 am

So uh....how much exactly does 5e cut out from character options ?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 17, 2017, 10:06:30 am

Quote from: RazielReaver on March 17, 2017, 06:28:17 am

So uh....how much exactly does 5e cut out from character options ?

Skill ranks and prestige classes are gone, feats and multiclassing are optional features (mostly replacing them is a set of 2-3 archetypes per class in addition to supplemental materials), spells are mostly the same but less powerful since caster level isn't a thing anymore, attributes are now all-important instead of super important.

That is, if you're wondering in relation to 3.5. I couldn't possibly comment about 4E.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: RazielReaver on March 17, 2017, 12:43:25 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on March 17, 2017, 10:06:30 am

Quote from: RazielReaver on March 17, 2017, 06:28:17 am

So uh....how much exactly does 5e cut out from character options ?

Skill ranks and prestige classes are gone, feats and multiclassing are optional features (mostly replacing them is a set of 2-3 archetypes per class in addition to supplemental materials), spells are mostly the same but less powerful since caster level isn't a thing anymore, attributes are now all-important instead of super important.

That is, if you're wondering in relation to 3.5. I couldn't possibly comment about 4E.

and that's enough information for me to never touch 5th Edition ever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 17, 2017, 12:45:52 pm

Quote from: RazielReaver on March 17, 2017, 12:43:25 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on March 17, 2017, 10:06:30 am

Quote from: RazielReaver on March 17, 2017, 06:28:17 am

So uh....how much exactly does 5e cut out from character options ?

Skill ranks and prestige classes are gone, feats and multiclassing are optional features (mostly replacing them is a set of 2-3 archetypes per class in addition to supplemental materials), spells are mostly the same but less powerful since caster level isn't a thing anymore, attributes are now all-important instead of super important.

That is, if you're wondering in relation to 3.5. I couldn't possibly comment about 4E.

and that's enough information for me to never touch 5th Edition ever.

Uh oh, an elitist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on March 17, 2017, 12:47:19 pm

It's an arite game. It's a lot more... 'flat' then 3.5. But that's not universally bad. I'd play different ones for different reasons with different people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on March 17, 2017, 01:05:42 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 25, 2015, 11:29:14 pm

From the outset I want a few things clear, DO NOT engage in 'version X is better than version Y' discussion/argument, I will lock down the thread and report the parties responsible. (Even if it's me.)

I'll just leave this here in case this builds up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 17, 2017, 04:12:48 pm

Hey, 5E's perfectly all right and it does a few things a lot better than 3.5E. Like giants, for instance. Giants are Huge in 5E, it's great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on March 17, 2017, 04:30:12 pm

Some giants are Huge in 3.5, just... most are Large.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 17, 2017, 04:49:18 pm

And that's just not good enough anymore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 17, 2017, 05:13:16 pm

Giants are Humanoid in Pathfinder. It's a little weird and open for abuse with Racial Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage/). Steal Giant only feats. Become a literal Troll in more ways than one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on March 17, 2017, 08:03:05 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on March 17, 2017, 10:06:30 am

Quote from: RazielReaver on March 17, 2017, 06:28:17 am

So uh....how much exactly does 5e cut out from character options ?

Skill ranks and prestige classes are gone, feats and multiclassing are optional features (mostly replacing them is a set of 2-3 archetypes per class in addition to supplemental materials), spells are mostly the same but less powerful since caster level isn't a thing anymore, attributes are now all-important instead of super important.

That is, if you're wondering in relation to 3.5. I couldn't possibly comment about 4E.

Having come from solely 4e, the battles aren't as spectacular and are actually like 3.5 where battles are "glass cannons roll on their turn, big stupid fighter gets punched in the face, casters win and make the battle seem like the non-casters won". But everything else outside of combat is better (although gear is all over the place...).

Compared to pathfinder, it's better in the sense that classes aren't considered completely useless if you plan on for long term gameplay. A fighter is still pretty solid at higher levels, even though casters still become gods...

EDIT:

Also, 5e tried to make everyone seem like you can be like casters but only giving them access to the spells that you really need to be creative to use. For example, arcane trickster archetype rogues can cast illusion magic, but they only get the first four spell levels of the wizard list.

Only the barbarian has no possible way to have magic, and I think wizards may change that with some archetypes in the future

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 08:09:04 pm

Ultimately there is a LOT in 5th edition that they do right and many times better than Pathfinder. Such as character and monster balance (You can finally make monsters without HUUUUUGE guess work like you need in Pathfinder). Yet the very limited character creation and character advancement hurts the game.

Pathfinder I feel... really needs a version 2... a clean slate.

Then again I think they are planning on making a Pathfinder 2, just call it a hunch... what with them playtesting certain... alternatives.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on March 17, 2017, 08:30:27 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 08:09:04 pm

Ultimately there is a LOT in 5th edition that they do right and many times better than Pathfinder. Such as character and monster balance (You can finally make monsters without HUUUUUGE guess work like you need in Pathfinder). Yet the very limited character creation and character advancement hurts the game.

Pathfinder I feel... really needs a version 2... a clean slate.

Then again I think they are planning on making a Pathfinder 2, just call it a hunch... what with them playtesting certain... alternatives.

Pathfinder is a clusterf*** of what happens when 3.5 elitists decide they can make a better 3.5 and then let other people throw their ideas into he mix. There really isn't much on balancing.

I think for 5e, PHB2 is coming out; they released like 2 or more (fighter and rogue has like 8) archetypes for each existing class and two new classes (mystic and artificer) for play testing. So far, it looks fantastic, although I'm not keen on the fact every class can now be divine based... Even the barbarian...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 08:40:17 pm

Quote

although I'm not keen on the fact every class can now be divine based... Even the barbarian...

Ehh they are archtypes. I actually think it is a nice move personally, most classes already have a arcane archetype mixed in there and a lot of casters have a physical archtype.

Another thing 5e does well is it tries to keep the flow of gameplay going. Rests cuts the pauses in gameplay down significantly and takes the weight of healing off healers somewhat.

It also done away with Swarms being immune to everything and things being immune to the Rogue.

The Rogue is where I am the most impressed. The problem with the Rogue as I explained many times before is that the Rogue is both underpowered and overpowered at the same time.

Because EVERYTHING needs to be balanced towards the Rogue, absolutely everything is too powerful for anyone else. 5e? Nope! anyone can learn lockpicking and be good at it.

As well magic items feel a lot more special in 5e without being arbitrarily rare. They are significantly more powerful and potent.

---

In otherwords I kind of hope that when they go to an edition beyond dungeons and dragons 5e they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Because even if I accept that 5e is worse then 3.5 and pathfinder (which is fair). It is still a huge step forward for the series.

Even 4e made some good moves, some I wish made it to 5e... but they did get a lot of the good ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: ShoesandHats on March 17, 2017, 09:18:09 pm

What would you guys say are the most important things a new DM should know/prepare before launching a campaign? Are there any important mechanical details that are easy to miss if you don't read the DM's guide front to back? If I'm planning a more story based campaign rather than a sandbox, what story beats should I have written out beforehand? Should I even plan that far ahead in the first place?

Sorry if I'm being a bit general, I have some time before all my players are able to get together and I want to make sure everyone has enough fun that they want to play again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 09:33:38 pm

I thought about it.

The most important rule that new DMs typically overlook... in the DM book...

Rule Zero

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on March 17, 2017, 09:42:09 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 08:40:17 pm

Because even if I accept that 5e is worse then 3.5

haha no

Quote from: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 08:40:17 pm

and pathfinder

no, can't even muster haha for that

Quote

Pathfinder is a clusterf*** of what happens when 3.5 elitists decide they can make a better 3.5 and then let other people throw their ideas into he mix. There really isn't much on balancing.

I"d play 3.5 with Epic6 to deal with the unbalanced power-curve, but I'd never play PF again.

---

In other news, I'm getting ready to run a Mutants and Masterminds game set a few years after a multiversal conflux that scrambled the dimensions together and then haphazardly separated them again.  If you want to be a superdude in a setting where martians and demons team up with Montezuma to form a Legion of Doom, come by and let's make something happen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163264.0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on March 17, 2017, 10:14:05 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 09:33:38 pm

I thought about it.

The most important rule that new DMs typically overlook... in the DM book...

Rule Zero

Is that "never say 'no you can't do that'"?

My advice is that by the way. If you read my wall of text, when you don't say no, even if it's an impossibility, the players may surprise you (such as calming an angry mob with a crit).

As for preparing, as a DM myself, there is always going to be the fact players will not do what you want and will do something unexpected. Feel free to change the location of dungeons if players want to go elsewhere in a more sandbox game, and if it's urgent, like a lich or a Mage on the verge of unleashing a power and the players won't do it, don't force them to it. Let them suffer the consequences of that ;D

Most important tidbit though: while you do never say no, be firm when you have a troublemaker player is starting problems. i have one in my group and he managed to derail a session to the point nothing happened and everyone wasted their time. I didn't stop it when I could, but I should have.

Good luck!

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 17, 2017, 09:42:09 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 08:40:17 pm

Because even if I accept that 5e is worse then 3.5

haha no

Quote from: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 08:40:17 pm

and pathfinder

no, can't even muster haha for that

Quote

Pathfinder is a clusterf*** of what happens when 3.5 elitists decide they can make a better 3.5 and then let other people throw their ideas into he mix. There really isn't much on balancing.

I"d play 3.5 with Epic6 to deal with the unbalanced power-curve, but I'd never play PF again.

---

In other news, I'm getting ready to run a Mutants and Masterminds game set a few years after a multiversal conflux that scrambled the dimensions together and then haphazardly separated them again.  If you want to be a superdude in a setting where martians and demons team up with Montezuma to form a Legion of Doom, come by and let's make something happen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163264.0)

I hate DMing pathfinder because nothing is easy. Enemies have feats and hit dice!? What is this none sense!? who said I can't have a boss monster with 1000hp because the party drops enemies in one turn from how much damage it does?

That's pretty much how I ran 4e, and why it's a joy to DM. However, it is a pain in the ass starting out as a player. You pretty much need to use some online or computer generated tools to even get a level 1 character using every book that's available.

The fact that I can send a party of 6 with mostly damage dealers, one tank and one controller to a dungeon and they fight enemies that in 5e and 3.5 would be impossible to even make but they manage to kill it with not just smacking it, but thinking outside of the box (swallowed by an undead wurm, used turn undead inside of it) then you have a great thing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on March 17, 2017, 10:20:28 pm

I love building encounters and dungeons in 4e.  Templates and custom creation is so smooth and easy, though the first two monster manuals have some wonky math in them, and I dunno if anybody ever released a conversion tool for the older monsters.

4e is the best version of D&D.  5e and 2e are pretty fun too.  3e and everything associated with it is a hellhole.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on March 17, 2017, 10:28:52 pm

Quote from: ShoesandHats on March 17, 2017, 09:18:09 pm

What would you guys say are the most important things a new DM should know/prepare before launching a campaign?

Aside from the basic tenants of "Let the PCs decide where to go" and the even more important one of "Make interesting places/situations for the PCs to interact with", knowing the kinks in the combat rules is highly useful. Flanking things, being flat-footed and provoking attacks of opportunity are the big ones.

Another big one is never having encounters that make a player feel useless. In general, there are ways to be useful against enemies your class is ill suited to facing, but newer players often won't think of them, which leads to fights where they can't do anything useful. Rogues against undead/constructs is probably the biggest one[So big you might want to house-rule a fix for it. Half damage from sneak attacks is the one I use, but I'm sure there are others], but enemies with high DR or absurd immunities can also be annoying brick walls of invulnerability.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 17, 2017, 10:38:17 pm

The reason I outright dislike mythic is that mythic monsters are dreadful with their feats!

And you can't ignore mythic feats because often times that is the ONLY reason the monster is a mythic creature in the first place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 17, 2017, 11:37:50 pm

The reason rogues are ineffective against undead (specifcally skeletal) is because they are crippled to always used stupid daggers, and skeletons need bashing/crushing damage to be effectively countered. 

Giving rogues some means of generating a concussive force (say, an explosion shock wave), would solve the issue.

I have always chafed under such rule restrictions, because to me they make no sense. A rogue might have a weapon proficiency issue with using a billy club (doubtful, ruffians use them all the time. It is the weapon of choice for jackbooted thugs IRL.) but saying outright that they cannot figure out how to club something is downright absurd.  Saying a wizard cannot channel a spell through a melee weapon makes some sense, so I can tolerate glass cannon shenanigans, but I feel rogues should be able to use any simple weapon, and rather than say "no, daggers only!" I would give them a "Simple weapons" proficiency. (Simple weapons are under 2.5 ft long, have no special requirements for dex or str, and are of mixed type bash, bladed, and special. Special being for things like a length of chain, or a short whip, like a riding crop.) This would enable things like using a frying pan, a billy club, a blackjack, etc. Due to the weapon size restriction, it is still a close combat specialization, with all the drawbacks that has.

But no, IMO, the official rules are way too anal about "NO! Thieves and Rogues USE DAGGERS AND BOWS! ONLY DAGGERS AND BOWS! *screaming hissyfit tantrum*"

I cannot stomach that nonsense, personally.  It makes sense that somebody that specializes in stealth and finesse wont be using a 2H claymore. I get that. But you know what a blackjack (https://www.google.com/search?q=blackjack+(weapon)&sa=X&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0ahUKEwjg97z2nN_SAhUL2IMKHcwQA2cQsAQIJA&biw=1366&bih=654&dpr=1) is? It was designed for stealth elimination of guards and subduing marks for performing a mugging (originally- It has since found some modern love as a self-defense item). Exactly the kind of thing a rogue would be using. It is essentially a little leather bag filled with lead pellets, attached to a handle. It deals blunt impact trauma.  Similar in nature to a sock filled with a bar of soap. It would be super effective against skeletons.

But No. "Rogues use daggers! (tantrum!)"

Needless to say, I feel it necessary to house rule that nonsense out of existence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 17, 2017, 11:48:07 pm

Gross, what edition is that?  Pathfinder?
Rogues in 3.5e can certainly use clubs and saps/blackjacks (in fact they need saps to do nonlethal sneak attacks).  But they cannot sneak attack damage undead.  The only ways I ever found were a freakin spell gem in Mystic Items Compendium, and I think some exalted feat, and one or both of those only allowed half the damage.

Really...  Why would a rogue not be able to use a blunt weapon?  I assume they can equip simple weapons like clubs, but not sneak attack?  Still, completely ridiculous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on March 17, 2017, 11:51:26 pm

Uh, wierd, rogues have proficiency in all simple weapons, and are specifically mentioned as having proficiency in saps--otherwise known as blackjacks. What rules are you reading? 3.5 and Pathfinder both have these proficiency rules.

Also, this is a nitpick, but lengths of chain and frying pans aren't simple weapons, they're improvised weapons, which have a -4 to all attack rolls because they're not designed for combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 18, 2017, 12:00:53 am

The hell they arent.

A manriki (http://www.weapons-universe.com/Martial_Arts/Ninja/Ninja_Weapons/Manriki_Chain-Chrome.shtml) is JUST a chain with some weighty bits on the end.

Note, they state that ninja use bits of rope to train with.

In addition to that specific weapon, there have been chain whips and simple chain flails all over the world, all over history. A chain is totally a weapon, when it is used as a weapon. A short length of chain handles a LOT like a slapjack, but does LOTS more damage. A frying pan is an improvised weapon, and will likely break after 2 good hits. (the handle will break off. Cast iron is brittle.) a good length of chain? Not so much.

(Also, mostly 2.5, for such restrictions. Things get really absurd in a lot of ways with 3.5/3.5E+)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 18, 2017, 12:08:35 am

DND 2.5?  Huh, I only ever looked into that a little and it seemed byzantine.  I guess take comfort that they removed the bladed-weapon restrictions in 3 or 3.5 and AFAIK they never returned, unless in 4 (maybe 5 but I really doubt it).

(also unrelated, I meant "weapon crystals" not "spell gems", and rogues can use a sap *or unarmed* to non-lethal sneak attack)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 18, 2017, 12:29:51 am

Used without restraint, a sap is totally lethal though. It can cause very deep tissue damage, much the same as soap in a sock can. But hey, the people who crafted that rule wanted a specifically "safe" non-lethal attack, they just didn't do good research.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 18, 2017, 12:37:44 am

Saps in 3.5 are actually lethal by default...  In fact, RAW, I think they only become nonlethal when a rogue uses them in a sneak attack.  And even then, optionally.

Of course, blunt head trauma as a harmless KO is pure hollywood, but it's hardly the most extraordinary (heh) thing people do in DND :P
For one thing, *any* weapon can be used totally nonlethally by taking a -4 to the attack roll.  Sometimes I joke about "turning the arrows around backwards" or other ridiculous explanations.
And while people may houserule it, AFAIK there's no point where nonlethal damage because permanent.  Except that you can keep "nonlethally" attacking someone until they're asleep for days and might die of thirst.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2017, 05:56:36 am

The funny thing about Rogues is that even though everyone builds them with Dexterity.

They benefit greatly from strength builds.

That is until Pathfinder created the Unchained Rogue... Which most DMs don't allow because they don't understand the Unchained classes (which are essentially the Pathfinder creators attempting to create a superior version of the original class)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 18, 2017, 07:40:00 am

Quote from: wierd on March 18, 2017, 12:29:51 am

Used without restraint, a sap is totally lethal though. It can cause very deep tissue damage, much the same as soap in a sock can. But hey, the people who crafted that rule wanted a specifically "safe" non-lethal attack, they just didn't do good research.

Next you'll tell me that conking people on the head so they fall down unconscious isn't totally safe either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on March 18, 2017, 10:13:26 am

Quote from: ShoesandHats on March 17, 2017, 09:18:09 pm

What would you guys say are the most important things a new DM should know/prepare before launching a campaign? Are there any important mechanical details that are easy to miss if you don't read the DM's guide front to back? If I'm planning a more story based campaign rather than a sandbox, what story beats should I have written out beforehand? Should I even plan that far ahead in the first place?

Sorry if I'm being a bit general, I have some time before all my players are able to get together and I want to make sure everyone has enough fun that they want to play again.

Make sure everyone is on the same page. Are people looking for goofy good times, high-intrigue with no combat, or a gritty meat-grinder where only the optimized survive? Is everyone willing to play them game with the other players or is someone planning to make a chaotic evil character who'll kill and rob the other characters "because that's what he does".

Are people okay with the risk of death, actively in favor of it, or will it ruin their day completely? More broadly, are there any topics that they're really interested in exploring, or ones that'll make them so uncomfortable there's no way for them to have fun in a game that includes them? (the classic bad game example being one where someone springs sex or sexual assault on another player.)

Basically: everyone is probably there to have a good time. But that's not necessarily going to be the same for every person. Hopefully everyone's invested enough in the game, and being friendly with the other players, that no one's good time has to come at anyone else's expense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 18, 2017, 11:36:04 am

Quote from: Neonivek on March 18, 2017, 05:56:36 am

The funny thing about Rogues is that even though everyone builds them with Dexterity.

They benefit greatly from strength builds.

That is until Pathfinder created the Unchained Rogue... Which most DMs don't allow because they don't understand the Unchained classes (which are essentially the Pathfinder creators attempting to create a superior version of the original class)

Turns out I really want to chat about rogues, apparently??  I just finished playing a ranger so I guess martial stuff is in my head.

Strength does increase their attack damage, true, but it's less important than dexterity.  They need DEX for (I'm bored):

Armor class is vitally important.  They have d6 HD, need to be within 30ft to sneak attack and closer to flank, and they're restricted to light armor if they want evasion (and armor check penalty ruins their important skills)

Reflex saves, since they rely on evasion and greater evasion to survive spells (d6 HD).  Also touch AC versus spellcasters.

Their skills.  Almost as important as INT, because they get 8+INT anyway.  With maxed ranks in hide/tumble/escape artist/open lock, more DEX gives an important edge.

Initiative.  They do NOT want to be flatfooted, ever.


Then consider that they typically need decent CHA (for UMD if nothing else, but also bluff), WIS for scouting, a reasonable INT, and all the CON they can get for when things go wrong at all (or when spellcasters go "TROLO no evasion not even a ray attack just save or die").  Strength only gives them bonus damage per swing (overshadowed by sneak attack) and attack bonus.  Weapon finesse works with all their weapons (and unneeded for bows), so it's really just that damage bonus.  They do get 3/4 BAB, which means a few attacks per round, but it's hard to justify IMO.

Now...  There is a fighter variant in RAW that gets sneak attack instead of bonus feats, near the bottom of this list:
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm
With full BAB, d10 HD, and no armor restrictions, likely using double-handed weapons...  Yeah, strength and "sneak attack" (via flanking) would be a deadly combo.  Mainly they lose all the rogue skills (2+INT and cross-class) because they're literally a fighter.  But they get HD, AC, BAB, hell fort is even a much better save than reflex.  And they can drop DEX safely.
Honestly, full sneak attack seems like a decent trade-off for the fighter bonus feats.  Weapon focus (+2 dam) is nice but kinda eclipsed by this, as long as you can flank.  Whereas weapon specialization (+1 att) is pretty lame.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 02:19:56 pm

If you're really worried about your strength bonus to damage on top of the other giant bonuses you get, you can just get weapon finesse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2017, 02:23:51 pm

Yes but Rogues also get benefits that remove their need to EVER have a dex bonus (Seriously if you need your dex bonus for your skills... your doing Rogue wrong :P). Not to mention their reflex save stays nice and high thanks to it being their dominant stat AND later on stops mattering period because they always succeed (Improved Evasion!)

They can keep their AC higher than a rogue can without losing their bonus thanks to Mithril.

All this for a rogue that will do much MUCH higher damage than a normal rogue AND will be able to do damage in all situations.

As for "Flatfooted" rogues are never flat footed... Uncanny Dodge.

Basically you are stacking bonuses a Rogue either doesn't need or that a Rogue suppliments SO much that it never becomes a factor.

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 02:19:56 pm

If you're really worried about your strength bonus to damage on top of the other giant bonuses you get, you can just get weapon finesse.

Weapon Finesse is a feat tax... and only allows you to use Dex to hit.

---

THEN AGAIN! there is also Merit in not even bothering to go Medium armor and sticking to light... but not raising your AC.

Most enemies later on... Will just flat out hit you every time regardless of your armor (This was fixed in 5e) and only missing if they roll 1s.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 02:34:08 pm

Part of the problem we're running into here is that 3.X is awful and broken and will never be balanced.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2017, 02:36:06 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 02:34:08 pm

Part of the problem we're running into here is that 3.X is awful and broken and will never be balanced.

Yeah... yeah... Everything I said was based on 3.5

Pathfinder has two fixes for this
1) Rogues actually have strength based archtypes... So... Yeah there is that
2) Unchained Rogues deal damage with finesse weapons based on their dex bonus.

I cannot remember but I think Rogues (definitely the unchained ones) also remove that weapon finesse Feat Tax (As in a Feat that is compulsory that seemingly only exists to remove one possible feat)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 18, 2017, 02:55:53 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 02:34:08 pm

Part of the problem we're running into here is that 3.X is awful and broken and will never be balanced.

We *just* dodged an edition fight, come on :P
Though yes 3.5e's very imbalanced.  Much like Pathfinder.

@Neo
I contend that if you're investing in skills, you usually want them as high as at all possible.  Besides a few exceptions like tumble, skills are generally opposed, so every point makes them more reliable.  And the rogue *needs* to pass that hide check, at least most of the time.  They're squishy.

Doubly so for reflex saves...  When a single save is the only thing protecting your d6 HD butt from dragonfire, max it!!  Especially with evasion.

I did forget about uncanny dodge, oops!

The AC thing is kinda true, but our GM has been pretty good about letting AC stay relevant.  Whereas our opposed skills haven't usually "maxed out", at least not when it matters.  Also, touch AC is really important against ray spells.  Casters have terrible BAB, and probably get overconfident since touch AC is usually very low.

Anyway, we're talking about +3 damage per 2 STR over 3 hits...  And that's at level 15, excluding haste or something (and assuming all hits).  That's *good*, but not nearly as important as DEX.  I'd overall rate rogue stats in this order:  DEX, CON, CHA, INT, WIS, STR.  It's good, but they *need* a bit of everything else.  I guess spot/listen could be dumped, but then you're dumping will-saves, which are otherwise a chink in their armor (no ray, no reflex).  I might be overrating CHA (it's hard not to), but maybe they don't have a paladin or bard to be party-face.  Or maybe the rogue might need to talk their own dang self out of some things ::)

As an aside, since I think we were mostly using core...  There are ways to use dex for damage, though they're limited or involve class levels.  This page is amazing:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus
My favorite is "deadeye".  It only applies to ranged attacks within 30ft, but that's the range limit on sneak attacks anyway.
(I love the errata, which changes the BAB requirement from 14... to 1.  A typo, we assume :P)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 03:11:32 pm

Is it an edition fight if we all agree?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2017, 03:14:31 pm

As I said Rogues auto succeed at reflex saves Essentially.

And if your facing off against serious breath attacks... You won't save against it. You should be using elemental resistance.

Quote

I guess spot/listen could be dumped

You aren't dumping anything. Rogues over-compensate. Besides, you do NOT want to split your stats that much.

Any skill you deem important will be more than high enough... with or without the dex bonus... because you are a Rogue... and you break the skill curve sideways and can sneak past ancient dragons at level 5.

 

Quote

but maybe they don't have a paladin or bard to be party-face.  Or maybe the rogue might need to talk their own dang self out of some things ::)

Notice how in your version the freeken rogue has to do everything... 3.5 design...

I am glad we don't have that anymore... Well except in Pathfinder where it is arguably worse, arguably better.

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 03:11:32 pm

Is it an edition fight if we all agree?

It isn't an edition fight xD

I am saying that Rogues in 3.5 benefit from a strength build.
-----

Also man I forgot how boring the non-caster classes were in 3.5...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 18, 2017, 04:52:02 pm

Just started a 5E campaign for my friends in college. Was not expecting to run a campaign (I had a setting idea I'd been wanting to use and no one else was willing to DM, and we were all wanting to play), especially not in a system I had never used before. I'm used to 3.5, (which is still better than 4E), and 5E, especially stuff like the caps on ability scores, just felt odd to me. But as I use it, it actually seems pretty good. Open-ended, but with enough structure that it's not difficult to adjudicate unexpected circumstances, and simple enough that you can just jump right in. Probably not ideal for the optimization and shit that everyone wants to do online, but for in-person play with people who aren't familiar, it's been working great.

So far they've gotten about halfway through a half-sunken thousands-of-years old watchtower, collapsed the kobold tunnel that led to the lower areas, killed the lizardfolk in charge of said kobolds, and gotten the dwarf knocked unconscious twice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 18, 2017, 10:19:32 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 18, 2017, 03:11:32 pm

Is it an edition fight if we all agree?

It's an edition fight when it gets heated, this has been avoiding an actual argument so you're all fine for now.  As long as everyone keeps their head on straight you can discuss things along this line.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 18, 2017, 11:34:58 pm

Evil campaigns are odd. There's still the push in the back of your mind to be a hero. Will avoid specifics for the sake of spoilers.

Heckled at a priest's sermon. Could have done more, but it was either too difficult/dangerous or counter-intuitive. We didn't even think of some of the options the DM informed us about, after it was over.

I punched out a bar maid because she was in my way. Also swinging a knife at me for threatening the barkeep, but that's not important.

We were ambushed by about a dozen people who didn't like us becoming a part of the town's guard. We made them all share the same 15'x10' cell.

Turns out another prisoner was also a were-boar, and burst through the bars. Not in the same cell as the ambushers. It mostly just wanted to escape, so it went running up and down one hallway as we stupidly ran back up and down a room that connected to both entrances, trying to chase it rather than split up to funnel it.

I want to become a full-fledged Vampire at some point, rather than just be a Dhampir. Checked with the Necromancer to see if it was an option among the undead-creating spells, but it is not.

---

What do people think of the Psionics in Pathfinder? I've heard some good stuff about it, despite being Third-Party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 18, 2017, 11:43:34 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 18, 2017, 11:34:58 pm

Evil campaigns are odd. There's still the push in the back of your mind to be a hero.

It hurts because of how "vague" the alignments are in terms of how strict or loose they are (And when a normal human being is neutral... then alignments don't mean anything).

So that sort of part of your mind to be a hero? Yeah it is something that REAL villains have.

Think Dr. Doom just kills babies in Latvaria? There is a VERY good reason why Latvaria puts up with his nonsense.

It is kind of why I never EVER want to run an evil campaign unless the players are playing intentional parodies... Because evil campaigns are already parodies, just no one realizes it.

----

I'll give you an example... in Reboot Enzo is having a birthday party that is the biggest thing in the entire system (Enzo is the child of... essentially the super rich ruler of the city AND is the only child in the city)

So Megabite hears of this... and what does he do? He forces himself on stage, and tries to upstage everyone by shredding some serious guitar even having a rock battle with Bob... and then gives Enzo his guitar and leaves without trouble.

----

But let us get into ACTUAL dungeons and dragons. Count Von Strahd is an evil Vampire who basically screwed everyone!

Yet within his domain there are a group of Gypsy Expyies who he strongly favors. For no reason other than admiration he grants them rights and privileges he doesn't extent to anyone else... and would likely even come to their rescue should anything particularly dire threaten them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 19, 2017, 12:20:35 am

Lex Luthor stole forty cakes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 19, 2017, 12:57:28 am

Quote from: Neonivek on March 18, 2017, 11:43:34 pm

The subtleties of alignment

You absolutely have to be an Evil character with few, if any redemptive qualities in this adventure. You're almost legit cartoon villains in Hell's Vengeance, aside from the intro sequence, where you're just thugs. I find this to be the problem. I know villains can be heroic, and heroes can act villainous, but you are out-and-out assholes for no reason other than for payment in this one. There's nothing to care about that's presented so far beyond cash. It's made clear that we are not friends of the town, and have no reason to treat the citizens nicely beyond the baron telling us not to kill them.

Maybe motivations get better later on, I don't know.

Though nonlethal being required in just about every combat is different from many other adventures.

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on March 19, 2017, 12:20:35 am

Lex Luthor stole forty cakes

That's as many as four tens.
And that's terrible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 19, 2017, 01:30:57 am

I've been in a group of players that ranged the entire spectrum, supporting a Lawful Neutral Monk, Chaotic Evil Fighter, True Neutral Wizard Chaotic Neutral Rogue, and Neutral Good Cleric. We all managed to remain surprisingly effective as a group, with the Rogue and Fighter finding a seedy watering hole whenever we needed underground info on the local area, the Cleric and Monk turning in any quests or bounties to the local authorities or temples, and the Wizard organising the group and acting as party bookkeeper and quartermaster.

Alignment is never a reason for conflict in the group if the players understand that it's intended to be a team effort from the outset. The DM's job is to ensure they realise that PvP isn't the goal of the game. The best way to do this? In my opinion, it's by ensuring your group's united in their goal of working together to stick it to the DM. Focus their hate on yourself, and you'll go a long way to building a strong group. I'm very fortunate to both have natural talent and plenty of practice in making people hate me, so I'm thoroughly enjoying being the DM this time around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 19, 2017, 02:38:47 am

I know this is approaching tricky ground, so I'm not going to say much.  I disagree.  Pragmatists can get along with anyone, but a generous person shouldn't support a callous murderer just because they're both PCs.  It should be a source of IC tension - which was done well, in my first real 3.5 experience.  My druid was exalted and the bard was secretly evil.  Literal devil-worshiper, only helping at Asmodeus's will and to obtain knowledge.  Acquired the Book of Vile Darkness, even.  So my druid tried to steal and destroy it...  failed...  And we left it at that.  The bard knew my druid knew, and my druid knew that the main quest was too important to press the issue further.

Notably, my druid eventually fell from exalted status, discarding good as naive.  He became a pragmatic true-neutral politician, willing to associate with the best of the worst as he led a band of survivors across the desert (as an NPC, but that's mostly coincidental).

So it's fine to consort with other alignments (unless you're a paladin), but it's lazy to just ignore them.  IC issues can be opportunities, if handled maturely.  Which, heh, is probably why chaotic evil is so commonly a no-go.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 19, 2017, 03:11:19 am

Actually, it helped that my True Neutral Wizard character was the de facto leader of the party, since her alignment could operate with most everyone's individual goals. She quite happily murdered an entire platoon of dwarven prison guards with the Chaotic Evil Fighter to break out his buddy from lockup. She gladly assisted the Neutral Good Cleric with obtaining and destroying an artefact of immense evil power from an abandoned temple for the good of the people. She was always there to unite and focus the group's attention on a common goal, or split up the group into units that could operate within their own sphere of morality.

I don't think it's so much a case of ignoring your character's alignment for the sake of the game. It's more about having players who can know that someone else at the table is doing something their character's morality doesn't agree with, and not pick a fight over it. Some players feel a constant need to make their character the centre of attention, to the exclusion of everyone else's fun. I guess I've just been lucky, or perhaps more appropriately I've been selective enough in choosing who I invite to my table, that it's not been an issue in our group. YMMV depending on the local pool of players, however. Sometimes you just get a drama queen who'd rather let the whole world burn before his Mary-Sue loses part of the limelight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 19, 2017, 03:59:10 am

That sounds pretty reasonable.  Though if the neutral good cleric knew about the guard-murder...  eh, YMMV I suppose.

I more wanted to share the old story, I guess.  In fact I'll elaborate on the end:  We were fighting a demon (?) from the Far Realms maybe, pretty heinous either way.  I think Chaotic Evil, but maybe more like Chaotic Blue.  The... chaotic neutral mummy (the spell screwed up) and the lawful evil bard (waaaait wait, what?  How was a bard lawful?  Maybe neutral evil)...

Anyway they sacrificed themselves to kill and seal the entity so my exalted neutral-good druid could survive and carry on the fight.  It was a touching moment.  And as my druid swam back to his people, he politely tendered his resignation from the exalted contract (which was a pretty big deal with level 10 Vow of Poverty).  He addressed the god of unicorns "If they are evil, and yet done more for this world than you...  Maybe it takes all types." 

And so he returned to the Everfree Forest, under siege by an undead empire, and offered amnesty to the dark fey and evil druids.  Any who would join the resistance were welcome...  And so, many traps were set.  And then the populace, mostly chaotic good fey, were evacuated.  Thanks largely to the efforts wicked.

Which was ironic, since that turnabout was based on deception.  The mummy *wanted* to die in glorious battle, and was overjoyed to reach Limbo.  He refused resurrection, and probably ceased to exist shortly after (or hell, before?) arriving.

And Asmodeus's bard...  Didn't die at all.  That plot thread was never fully resolved, but through OOC I knew that he survived and left.  Apparently his mission was successful.  Presumably the destruction of the demon.  But turning the world's most powerful exalted druid to pragmatism... couldn't have hurt.

Apologies, apparently I didn't feel like sleeping.  But I probably should.

---

But uh.  If anyone has equipment suggestions for a Shadowrun 5th edition Adept with 50k to spend, that'd be appreciated.
I went with:

Spoiler: NO PEEK, GROUP (click to show/hide)

(http://cs6.pikabu.ru/images/previews_comm/2015-01_1/14203664199334.jpg)
A Attributes
B Magic (6 magic, 1 active skill at 4)
C Skills (28/2) (Both group points in Stealth)
D Money (50k)
E Metatype Human (1)

My character looks like Elrond, and is an elf poser (human who pretends to be an elf).  I'd like to use a pistol primarily, a bow for stealth, and probably unarmed for melee.  In other words, a mix of Elrond and Agent Smith.

I'm not apologizing

Advice on specific equipment and adept powers would be much appreciated.  I'm getting tricked out shades (including low-light vision to better pass as an elf), and the crown is a set of trodes for direct neural interface.
Strength would be a priority for the bow, except apparently strength isn't used for unarmed attacks at all?  So I'll probably drop strength for agility, and load the bow with chemical arrows instead of going for damage.

I kinda wish I had more edge, but *something* needed to be priority E.  My character should have a decent (medium) lifestyle, and there's plenty of cool stuff to spend on.  A disguise kit, for one thing...  Being an elf isn't easy for a human.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 19, 2017, 06:15:12 am

Actually that's a really good story! I especially like how your group's actions (even if they did have self-serving reasons for doing them) ended up making a significant difference to the path your character took in their story.

I'm looking forward to the next few sessions of my campaign. The group's about to head into a nation devoted to worshipping Asmodeus. They know that slaves are common, but they don't yet realise how hard life will be for them when they're not worshippers. Obviously the guard keep Law and Order by forbidding outsiders from carrying weapons. They forbid carrying holy symbols of other deities. They forbid unlicensed arcane magic. They forbid all poisons, including alcohol. They forbid sexual relations except between married men and women, and only marriages conducted by a priest of Asmodeus are recognised as legitimate.

Any other suggestions to really make this place a draconian dystopia of Lawful Evil?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on March 19, 2017, 06:47:43 am

Special taxes. For not being worshippers of Asmodeus. For not being worshippers of Asmodeus and wanting to go over bridges. For not being worshippers of Asmodeus and wanting to use roads that go over bridges.

More licences.

Forbidden to talk to non-officials, i.e. common people.
Clothing and armour restrictions.
Having to wear (and pay for) special badges that say "outsider".

Having to report to officials every twenty-four hours they are in the country.
Forbidden to have more than a certain amount of money as non-worshippers.
Forbidden to have less than a certain amount of money as non-worshippers.
Cannot spend more than a certain amonut in one place. Cannot carry more than a certain amount of food as outsiders.

Harsh curfews, obviously.
Large parts of the city are forbidden to outsiders.
Laws about personal appearance + grooming e.g. hair length, beard size, etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on March 19, 2017, 07:24:32 am

Illegal to not now to priests of Admodeus when they pass.

Illegal for non-worshippers to talk in the presrnce of or look at priests of Asmodeus. Have every state official be an ordained clerg of Asmodeus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 19, 2017, 07:49:27 am

Impose legal requirement that all marriages performed in the region be ordained by clergs of asmodeus, and that lesser demon minions of asmodeus shall have right of prima nocta, if they choose, from among those that refuse to worship asmodeus. The penalty for refusal is permanent exile to the lesser hells. Marriages so officiated will require the consensual 'blessing' of such a minion, who shall act as godparent, by law. Any children produced from these unions shall be testaments to the rule of asmodeus in the material planes-- destruction of one without a proper order from the court of asmodeus is punishable by similar exile. Those exiled will be "fortunate" if they become mere slaves; They become the legal property of either the legally recognized godparent, OR, are assigned as property as deemed appropriate by the court of asmodeus, depending on circumstance.

(You said lawful evil. You got it. In a decade or two, this should result in a very, very fertile ground for story. Nothing says "embodiment of evil" quite like corrupting an entire people's first born generation. :P Naturally, since this ONLY applies to those that REFUSE to worship Asmodeus, the number of such couplings will be small, [and the number of godparents that refuse the right will be smaller still], but will neatlly explain exactly what kind of hell "slaves" live in.)


For added "joy" in the realm, The clerical rule of the region requires a degree of spiritual perfection unattainable even by the most devout of holy paladins, and describes *ALL THOSE THAT FAIL TO MEET THOSE REQUIREMENTS* as "condemned sinners." It is from these ranks that the devout of Asmodeus are called to service, having, by nature, already fallen from grace by the holy decree of the Pact Primeval (which grants him the role of being said arbiter), and postpone their ultimate fate in the hells through "alternative service."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 19, 2017, 10:10:17 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 19, 2017, 06:15:12 am

Actually that's a really good story! I especially like how your group's actions (even if they did have self-serving reasons for doing them) ended up making a significant difference to the path your character took in their story.

I'm looking forward to the next few sessions of my campaign. The group's about to head into a nation devoted to worshipping Asmodeus. They know that slaves are common, but they don't yet realise how hard life will be for them when they're not worshippers. Obviously the guard keep Law and Order by forbidding outsiders from carrying weapons. They forbid carrying holy symbols of other deities. They forbid unlicensed arcane magic. They forbid all poisons, including alcohol. They forbid sexual relations except between married men and women, and only marriages conducted by a priest of Asmodeus are recognised as legitimate.

Any other suggestions to really make this place a draconian dystopia of Lawful Evil?

I don't see anything requiring the men and women to be married to each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 19, 2017, 12:20:32 pm

I suggest a rigid caste system.  So there are menial workers akin to slaves, but also "untouchables" that even the other slaves look down on.  The Nine Hells are rigidly casted, on top of devils being strictly organized by rank (promotions are possible, but transform them to different "types").

...Oops, I took "draconic" literally.  But maybe you can use it anyway:  Some of the castes could be mostly dragonkin.  Sorcerers, artisans, industrialists etc.  Basically the "middle class" between metahuman laborers and devilkin cleric-theocrats.  Blue and green dragons are Lawful Evil.
There could be tension there... or maybe not, since they're lawful.  Depends on how much tithe is demanded of the dragonkin, I suppose.

It's an interesting concept, because devils can be really... hospitable.  They do prefer to acquire souls willingly, after all.  High-level souls are worth a *lot* more, too.  It's possible that the party could have a nice time, if they're willing to ignore the plight of their fellow metahumans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on March 19, 2017, 07:35:24 pm

Decided what my party is gonna go through when we jump out of Curse of Strahd for a bit.

The party has already fucked over the world's timeline, making it so much worse, so a time traveller or a clairvoyant (probably the latter) comes along and says in order to prevent a world ending disaster, they have to kill Certain people as the party tries to prevent the timeline from getting worse.

This includes a cast of characters who include (since this is taking place in the past of another campaign)

- the father of the most horrible tiefling who ever lived
- the King of the wood elves who attempts a genocide on the dwarves (since they messed up the timeline, he now succeeds)
- someone who will gain the power to destroy the entire plane
- a high elf who tries to ascend to lichdom
- an Orc warchief who's grandchild would attempt to recreate the goblin and Orc alliance that almost conquered the world
- a high elf pirate who gets cursed, and his sons would later manifest into the creation of Leviathan
- an abused half elf child who grows up to blockade the ocean and murders hundreds

The last two actually happens to cause the most impact, because it would cause their continent to be permanently trapped, and would lead to a huge war that ravages the continent over resources and land

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 20, 2017, 03:12:51 am

I hate to do this, but I'm still eager for some advice for building this Shadowrun 5e character...  Not especially minmaxy (I'd ask somewhere else).  More like basic advice.  It is our first try at the system, but I'm the most likely to be engaged in melee (rigger drones aside).  I specifically want a *decent* character. 

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 19, 2017, 03:59:10 am

Spoiler: NO PEEK, GROUP (click to show/hide)

(http://cs6.pikabu.ru/images/previews_comm/2015-01_1/14203664199334.jpg)
A Attributes
B Magic (6 magic, 1 active skill at 4)
C Skills (28/2) (Both group points in Stealth)
D Money (50k)
E Metatype Human (1)

My character looks like Elrond, and is an elf poser (human who pretends to be an elf).  I'd like to use a pistol primarily, a bow for stealth, and probably unarmed for melee.  In other words, a mix of Elrond and Agent Smith.

I'm not apologizing

Advice on specific equipment and adept powers would be much appreciated.  I'm getting tricked out shades (including low-light vision to better pass as an elf), and the crown is a set of trodes for direct neural interface.
Strength would be a priority for the bow, except apparently strength isn't used for unarmed attacks at all?  So I'll probably drop strength for agility, and load the bow with chemical arrows instead of going for damage.

I kinda wish I had more edge, but *something* needed to be priority E.  My character should have a decent (medium) lifestyle, and there's plenty of cool stuff to spend on.  A disguise kit, for one thing...  Being an elf isn't easy for a human.

I still want advice about equipment and powers.  I assume I just have 6 magic so 6 PP, I'm not sure it's possible to exceed that on creation.  I assume Wired Reflexes Improved Reflexes is a priority despite the cost, because it means acting significantly faster.  Mystic Armor also seems like a common pick, due to it stacking with normal armor (though I doubt we'll fight *powerful* enemies in the astral plane). 

That said, I think I'll take Killing Hands for 0.5.  I'd normally tend toward nonlethal, but my understanding is that doesn't stack with lethal like in 3.5e.  I mean for maluses, but not for unconsciousness...  Also, this way I can punch hostile spirits if such a thing comes up.

Other than that...  I was leaning towards Attribute Boost, but I thought it could be applied to a chosen attribute on activation.  Seeing that it cannot, and knowing that it doesn't affect limits, Improved Physical Attribute looks better (also simpler).

So that's Improved Reflexes, Killing Hands, Improved Physical Attribute, and Mystic Armor.  With a budget of 6 I guess.  I feel like I should have *something* with a drain, unless I want to dump willpower...  Heck maybe I *should* dump willpower.  My character is obsessed with pretending to be an elf, after all.  I should probably put a little into Kinesics to improve my disguise checks.

Edit:  Sidenote:  Our new GM quietly muttered "fuckin christ" when he saw my avatar.  I'm still not apologizing 8D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Mini on March 21, 2017, 04:36:05 pm

It's just the proficiency bonus. I suppose Wizards decided to assume that everybody is proficient in what they are casting, which does make a degree of sense.

Incidentally, I thought they had done the same for unarmed strikes, since nobody specifically gets proficiency in them and they got errated out of the weapons table (even though that is the only place in the PHB where the damage they do is), but then there is a feat (Tavern Brawler) and a spell (Alter Self) which both give you proficiency in them, so we have another 3.5-alike "monks aren't proficient in their primary weapon" debacle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 21, 2017, 04:43:31 pm

In 5e everyone has a universal proficiency bonus that can apply to many stats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 21, 2017, 05:48:14 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 21, 2017, 05:38:30 pm

So if it just says proficiency bonus, add the proficiency bonus because it doesn't mean a particular proficiency bonus?

Ok here is how it works... Let us take a Wizard and assume it is level 5

Level 5 wizards have a +3 proficiency bonus

They also have a: Intelligence and Wisdom proficiency

Anytime they would make a Intelligence or Wisdom check... they get a +3 ontop of whatever their attribute bonus is.

If a wizard had to make a dexterity check... they do not gain this proficiency bonus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on March 21, 2017, 06:08:25 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 21, 2017, 05:48:14 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 21, 2017, 05:38:30 pm

So if it just says proficiency bonus, add the proficiency bonus because it doesn't mean a particular proficiency bonus?

Ok here is how it works... Let us take a Wizard and assume it is level 5

Level 5 wizards have a +3 proficiency bonus

They also have a: Intelligence and Wisdom proficiency

Anytime they would make a Intelligence or Wisdom check... they get a +3 ontop of whatever their attribute bonus is.

If a wizard had to make a dexterity check... they do not gain this proficiency bonus.

Well, the first part is right, though I will say it doesn't matter what your class is; if you're a level 5 anything, you have a +3 proficiency bonus (there's a table near the front of the PHB that gives the proficiency bonus per level, and also in the class by level table for each class). Even if you're multiclassed, you still have the same proficiency bonus per level as everyone else.

But, for the second thing, wizards have proficiency in Intelligence and Wisdom saving throws. Not checks (at least, not all checks). Checks in 5e are used for skills. Usually you add your proficiency bonus to ability checks when you have proficiency in relevant skill (and, in play, most DMs will probably just call this a skill check, rather than calling out a specific ability and playesr asking if a certain skill applies like they do in the book examples). So a wizard might gain a proficiency bonus to make a dexterity check if they have a skill like Acrobatics (probably picked up from their background, since they can't get it from wizard). Also, tool proficiencies can be added to certain checks, though I'm not sure if the rules specify what ability checks to use with them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on March 21, 2017, 06:25:23 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 21, 2017, 05:38:30 pm

So if it just says proficiency bonus, add the proficiency bonus because it doesn't mean a particular proficiency bonus?

Yeah, you have a proficency bonus, which is based on your level as mentioned. If you are proficient in something (a saving throw, a skill or tool, a weapon type) you can add that bonus to those d20 rolls (so rolling to hit, not rolling damage). (Or some multiple of that bonus with expertise and similar things.)

Some more examples and words. http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/31854/can-someone-explain-what-the-proficiency-bonus-is-in-dd-5e-next-exactly

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on March 24, 2017, 07:18:31 pm

I finally got that game up and running. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163390.0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on March 24, 2017, 07:45:15 pm

Quote from: Tawa on March 24, 2017, 07:18:31 pm

I finally got that game up and running. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163390.0)

Awesome.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 24, 2017, 08:05:17 pm

First session of Shadowrun.  New GM, I think- not even sure (new to the system at least).  Here goes.

As I've already shared, this is my character:
(http://cs6.pikabu.ru/images/previews_comm/2015-01_1/14203664199334.jpg)
And that is really the core for his character.  In that he is a human, pretending to be both Elrond and Agent Smith.
His name is L-Rand because all the runner names in the books are similarly horrible.
This is his story :P

Shortly after moving to Vampire The Masquerade:Bloodlines Los Angeles, L-Rand (Elbereth Gilthoniel (Herman Inco (real name, fake ID))) started looking for jobs.  There actually wasn't much rush...  His condo was quite decent, particularly with the sizable bugout funds he'd saved.  It's good to save money when you have a secret.

Still, he spent a few days ingratiating himself at the local elf bar.  Because he was an elf.  Totally.  As far as most people could tell, he was definitely an elf, down to his supernaturally practiced mastery of Sperethiel and lifelike eartips.

And inevitably, he found an "in" for his chosen profession.  A RIDICULOUSLY cybered up Decker lady walked in, asking for a drink.  Sorta obviously a runner, in that "You have no proof, coppers!" way.  More machine than woman.  Also, he vaguely remembered her from a... oh, shit.

A local celebrity author/porn actor/actress.  Shit, shit.  Still... with that level of mods, they probably had an in to the local running circuit.  Might be the only chance he got.

"Hey, nice mods!" he ventured.  "Thanks!  They're-" this continued for a while, with both of them being almost supernaturally charming.  He followed her back to a shadowy table of the tavern bar, with hir even buying the drinks (as long as he kept up the praise).  There he pushed his actual goal... shadowrunning... until the deva's fishbowl acknowledged it.

I don't think I mentioned she(?) had a fishbowl.  They did.  With a cyberfish, apparently tied to an increasingly uncomfortable rigger.  Score!

This seems like a good time to skip about 12 hours.  We got a job from a Mr Johnson there at the tavern bar.

AAAAANYWAY.  The job was pretty basic, really.  We needed to acquire a certain RFID card's data from someone at a minor subsidiary corp.  We were even provided with prearranged temp jobs as security guards at said corp, which definitely made our jobs easier.

And this seems like a good point to pause, for now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 24, 2017, 10:42:54 pm

And now he must address every opponent as 'Mister Anderson' while adjusting his shades.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 24, 2017, 10:52:44 pm

Oh dear. 

Well, it isnt like reading an RFID card discretely is terribly hard. You dont need super advanced kit for that. Basically a cellphone and a driven antenna down a pant leg.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: ShoesandHats on March 24, 2017, 11:35:01 pm

How would you guys recommend designing the first dungeon/adventure? I'm not sure how many enemies or encounters there should be to challenge a group of four newbies without overwhelming them. I'm also wondering how to make a non-violent solution feel challenging when it's possible in the first place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 25, 2017, 12:03:50 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on March 24, 2017, 10:42:54 pm

And now he must address every opponent as 'Mister Anderson' while adjusting his shades.

That's certainly true whenever he's running his favorite personality-chip which I bought.  He's not addicted... yet.

Quote from: wierd on March 24, 2017, 10:52:44 pm

Oh dear. 

Well, it isnt like reading an RFID card discretely is terribly hard. You dont need super advanced kit for that. Basically a cellphone and a driven antenna down a pant leg.

You're not wrong.

First Shadowrun campaign session, continued.  Switching to first person.
First off, I had to run home, because I wasn't wearing my tricked-out armor jacket and 5 weapons to the fricken elf bar.  I have specific Elrond robes for that (which actually might give a bonus to social checks...  Maybe in Run Faster?  Doesn't matter).
I probably could have caught a ride, but I chose to run, my character was a bit out of sorts for reasons :P
The Decker-elf's apartment happened to be fairly close to mine, anyway, since we're both medium-affluent.  But I had to catch a taxi to the target mini-corp.

Bottom line, I was late to our temp job.
Queue like an hour of our decker refusing to let my character in because my SIN is illegal (actually she never even scanned it, but there was a lot of Skype crosstalk).  I had to step aside for like 3 cars while she/they/whatever pretended not to know me - which was, while hilarious, also total BS :P  But hilarious IC and OOC.
And honestly, my character had every reason to laugh as well - even find it moderately amusing.  He was desperate to find an in for shadowrunning in this city.  And she was a notable celebrity, if only in low circles.  Not to mention other factors.

Eventually some trolls drive up in a pretty rad car, covered in meme-paper.  They try the gate, but have only one SIN...  Which does check out, IIRC, and I don't think our fake-job's handler gave us instructions for this situation.  Fortunately the Decker-bitch does have guile, and demands SINs for everyone.  They say "Urr okay sure" and park in the median while they...

Well I don't know what the pretense was, but they pretty quickly unload and start scaling the wall.  I (still outside) hide behind the streetcorner.  Decker is literally not being paid enough for this (even the boss was artfully apathetic in our briefing) and follows the actual instructions, laying low and calling Lone Star.  The sorta-kinda-whatever police.

A few turns pass.  Something important happens, but I'll put that off until we finish this troll gang thread.  Here we go:  Lone Star rolled absolute shit, I dove through the gate while Decker-lady briefly opened it for a car, then I helped Lonestar incapacitate the gangmembers.  We actually got a- OH SHIT WE GOT A BOUNTY, I forgot!!  Not sure if I just forgot, or if deva-decker simply didn't tell the rest of us heh.

Incidentally, I love the power glove.  It's so bad.

Meanwhile a special someone drove up to the security gate.  He passed a special RFID card to our Decker (still working the gate).  She had him wait while we [figured out the decking rules] copied the data off, then gave it back.  Mission technically accomplished.

Much laughs and such were had over a job well done.  Until someone drove up to the gatehouse with a note, which I received (I took hir place).

The game had changed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 25, 2017, 04:29:41 am

Quote from: ShoesandHats on March 24, 2017, 11:35:01 pm

How would you guys recommend designing the first dungeon/adventure? I'm not sure how many enemies or encounters there should be to challenge a group of four newbies without overwhelming them. I'm also wondering how to make a non-violent solution feel challenging when it's possible in the first place.

This is 3.5e/Pathfinder, right? If so, three to four encounters of increasing difficulty is a good ballpark, though it depends.

First, do any of them actually know how to read their character sheets? Holding up the game for each person to find where they add their attack bonus and how much damage they roll means it's dependant on the level of system mastery here. Then we get into things like flanking and other modifiers to combat such as concealment.

Second, do they have any source of magic support, especially healing? You can expect a Cure Light Wounds to handle most character's wounds from a single combat. At level 1, it's about 50% odds that a character will get hit in combat, since variation on the d20 has far more significance at this level when a Wizard and Fighter only have a difference of 1 BAB. Similarly, a level 1 Sleep spell can end most encounters fairly quickly. If so, plan for each magical character to spend about 1-2 of their spells in each encounter.

Third, how many hit points does your group have? Hopefully they're not so new as to dump their Con score. Pick enemies whose average damage is around 4 hp per hit. At 50% chance to connect, and with most combats ending in about 4 rounds, expect each enemy to subtract an average of 8 hp from the group, and healing to restore half of that on average per spell. These restorations count towards the daily magic resource cost.

So a level 1 dungeon might look something like a haunted crypt populated by 2 small monstrous spiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousSpider.htm), 3 human warrior skeletons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm), 2 human commoner zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm) and a ghoul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm) cleric.

The spiders wait concealed at the entrance to the crypt, feeding on the juices from the recently dead. Set up an ambush at the entrance with a sheet of web per the Web special ability that needs them to make a DC 20 Spot check to notice, or else they Entangled per the text. Mechanically, they deal just 1 damage on average with a small chance to inflict Strength damage from their poison. They'll die from all but the weakest of hits too. Four characters on average attacking means combat should finish in one or two rounds once they break free of the webbing.

The skeletons rise from their coffins, wielding rusted weapons and decaying shields. These are more tough than the previous enemies, their damage reduction negating a significant amount of damage unless your players carry bludgeoning weapons. You can increase their difficulty on the fly if your group's handling themselves by adding a chain shirt to their gear. A Fighter with 16 Strength has an attack bonus of +4 at this level, meaning they'd hit these creatures on an 11 or higher. Adding a chain shirt increases their AC to 19, meaning your Fighter now has to roll 15 or higher. Their odds of hitting have gone from 45% to 25% with this, a massive increase in the challenge even before reducing the damage they deal from DR. Use your judgement as a DM on whether this is too much for your group. Perhaps give just one of the skeletons a chain shirt to make it tougher than the other two.

The zombies shamble forward, arms outstretched to feed on the living. These guys are straight up bruisers, no finesse needed. Their massive hit points are their only defence. Remember that they can charge up to their movement and still attack even with their Single Actions Only ability.

The sickly stench of rotting flesh surround this armoured figure, hunched over the innards of a corpse as it feeds. The ghoul is your boss monster. It has a variety of nasty abilities that will challenge your group even as just a simple monster, but adding class levels to it increase its challenge as well as its defences. Give it a suit of scale mail to bump its AC to 18, or add a light or heavy wooden shield to make it even tougher. Remember to give it an unholy symbol to its evil deity. This, the extra hit points from its class level, and a mostly used wand of Animate Dead are all you really need to turn this into a boss fight. The Ghoul can either spend its turn using a full attack with bite and two claws, or give up a claw attack to use a shield. It might draw its wand and animate a corpse into a zombie for an additional minion if it's harmed by the group, and activating a wand doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Between its stench aura, paralysis, disease, high AC and the option to heal itself with Inflict Light Wounds, it's a beast of a boss battle. Note that a savvy player might realise the perfect counter to this creature's abilities are vials of holy water, which hit against touch AC. Whether the group has access to these is up to their preparation beforehand and any loot you might place in the dungeon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on March 25, 2017, 05:09:55 am

Quote from: ShoesandHats on March 24, 2017, 11:35:01 pm

How would you guys recommend designing the first dungeon/adventure? I'm not sure how many enemies or encounters there should be to challenge a group of four newbies without overwhelming them. I'm also wondering how to make a non-violent solution feel challenging when it's possible in the first place.

3-4 encounters is probably about right.

Personally, I'd try and tutorialise it a tiny bit. Undead are quite handy for such things as they're very hard to talk around.
Maybe lead with a simple encounter with a couple of weak undead, get them used to their combat statistics.

Have the entrance of the dungeon be such that it would require some sort of skill/ability check to bypass (perhaps a weak locked door, which could be kicked down or picked).

Next encounter you ramp up the difficulty somewhat, but start making terrain interesting. The goal here is to start snapping them out of the video-game mindset many new players have. Put powerful enemies next to ledges, maybe lights held on the roof with pulleys such that cutting the rope can drop it on enemies. Try and tailor it to the character sheets to start with (namely any spellcasters spell lists are a great way of figuring out what alternative tools they have available.)
I'd also drop some kind of hint in this room (note: as a DM, what you think is an obvious hint will highly highly likely be missed by new players, so scale it up a hell of a lot) regards the next encounter.

3rd one is the one that should be bypassable. Have a sentient, maybe a villager from nearby, be doing something with a goal that is not benefited by killing the players. Perhaps searching for a missing relative or the like. Using the hint in the previous room, the players should be able to help. If so, the players should be rewarded by the NPC, perhaps with something that might make the boss fight a bit easier (holy water v some undead, for example). If they don't take the initiative and help, the aid passes them by.
If they decide to kill the NPC, they should be able to. They should also find the reward on their body. In addition, they should find something ( a letter perhaps), that tells the players what the NPC was doing there, and also perhaps a personal possession of the NPC that would sell for good money: and if they kill an innocent NPC, it should have repercussions. If it's a villager, have people mention that X is missing when they come back to town. If they try to sell the personal possession, have them interrogated, perhaps even accused if they act suspicious enough. The challenge to many non-violent encounters should not necessarily be in the solving but in finding the optimal solution.

Back to the dungeon, close with a boss fight. The temptation to make boss fights into huge sacks of hit points is tempting, but not very interesting. Instead, bosses should have more abilities, such as raising dead, or auras of fear. Creative solutions to these problems (ie. burning/beheading the corpses around the room) should very much be allowed/encouraged. I like to think of boos fights less as huge monsters and more a combination of monster and puzzle. Full solution of the puzzle puts it about the level of a fairly normal combat encounter. The reward from earlier would also be considered a component of said puzzle.

Loot frequency depends on the game you're running, but try and make sure the boss fight has some kind of reward (though it needn't necessarily be physical - a plot hook often makes a good reward in and of itself).

Obviously this is all how I'd do things, and even allowing for subjectivity may not be the best way to go about things, but hopefully you'll have other options :P
Ninja'd: see Jimmy's for other ways to do things (though with some overlap) :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 25, 2017, 05:34:55 am

One final thing should be mentioned too: Both my example and sjm9876 use undead, but these will severely penalise the party Rogue if they're using 3.5e rules for Sneak Attack. On the other hand, they reward Clerics and other classes with special abilities specific to this creature type. Try to keep this in mind if you're building an encounter. Any puzzles or encounters should allow every member to contribute meaningfully in some fashion and have solutions that your group can overcome with their own resources.

Also, puzzles and environmental features are a great way to have fun with oddball ideas. To take an example from my own game, about level 5 my group travelled to the Elemental Plane of Earth temporarily to help an NPC trade for powdered ruby (he was a wizard repairing one of his simulacrums). They ended up needing to rescue a local kidnapped druid to get the items they wanted, and the fight they engaged in occurred in a place the locals called the Sulphur Pits.

After drawing the map of the cave, I drew three 10x10 squares on the board, telling players these were gas vents spewing noxious fumes into the air. Mechanically, they granted concealment as per a smokestick. The players discovered the enemies they were facing had spell resistance, too. Of course, as a player, what would you do? Yep, the party spellcaster, realising they wouldn't contribute much to the fight by simply slinging spells, spent their turns lighting torches from their pack they'd been carrying since first level and chucking them into the clouds, which exploded as per a 5th caster level Fireball spell scroll when exposed to flame. After realising this, the group had immense fun luring the enemies into position to fry them whilst simultaneously avoiding getting cooked themselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on March 25, 2017, 09:15:46 am

If you go with undead, be aware of what gear your players are bringing. Damage reduction is really significant at first level, when you don't have a lot of spell slots and people probably don't have spare weapons with the right damage type, and when losing 5 damage off your roll is probably most or all of your attack. I've played two separate games with one guy who likes to make the first fight skeletons, for some reason, and both fights were slogs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 25, 2017, 09:25:29 am

wizards and clerics come armed with bash weapons though. Admittedly, those are players that shouldnt really be doing such activities... just saying they come with equipment that is useful, and if the group plays well, letting the fighter borrow that craptastic quarterstaff for a bit can save the day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 25, 2017, 09:29:44 am

Quote from: wierd on March 25, 2017, 09:25:29 am

wizards and clerics come armed with bash weapons though. Admittedly, those are players that shouldnt really be doing such activities... just saying they come with equipment that is useful, and if the group plays well, letting the fighter borrow that craptastic quarterstaff for a bit can save the day.

That's only a 2E thing, I'm fairly sure. They changed it so clerics are proficient with simple weapons in 3E onward so they totally can pack a variety of armament (granted, swords are still martial weapons but it's the thought that counts).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 25, 2017, 09:48:36 am

As long as it deals bash, and is covered by basic proficiency (so fighter can use without penalty), it still can save the day.

You get the benefit of the fighter's hit dice, higher con, and str-- without any special requirement penalties, or damage type penalties when dealing with skeletons that way.  Sure, the base damage of the bash weapon is gonna suck, because it is starting equip, but it is better than the "with penalty" sword he is likely starting with.

If anything, a 1h scepter is probably better than a 2h staff anyway. Fighter can still use shield that way. If I was rolling a party, I would select at least one to have some kind of bash weapon, just because every damn villain in the material plane keeps fucking skeletons in the closet. LITERAL skeletons.

Cleric and wizard at low level are going to be fragile as damn glass anyway, and are better off trying to turn undead, or spamming an offensive cantrip from a corner.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 25, 2017, 10:04:51 am

Actually, it'd be trivially easy for a fighter to pack a club just in case - clubs cost like a silver piece or two in 3.5 and they're actually free in 5E. Your Str and Power Attack are going to do the heavy lifting anyway if you're a fighter, so it doesn't really hurt to always have one with you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 25, 2017, 10:06:11 am

In 3.5e and Pathfinder they're zero cost too. It literally costs nothing for a fighter to pick up a club or quarterstaff with their starting equipment. The only downside is extra weight, but they're usually fine since they likely didn't dump Strength.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 25, 2017, 10:16:23 am

You would have to be some special kind of short bus challeneged to short STR on a fighter. That's like dumping INT on a wizard, or CHA on a sorc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on March 25, 2017, 10:17:21 am

Sure! It's totally possible the party is well set up to bludgeon skeletons and chop up zombies. But especially for beginner groups (which I was in, both times this was a big issue), it's very possible that people didn't buy stuff with damage reduction in mind.

Granted, by RAW anyone can make a zero-cost club instantaneously with no materials because of how the crafting rules work, so that's an easy out for skeletons. :P

Quote from: wierd on March 25, 2017, 10:16:23 am

You would have to be some special kind of short bus challeneged to short STR on a fighter.

I mean, unless you're playing a dex fighter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 25, 2017, 10:21:56 am

It is also possible that this is a premade beginner campaign that has pre-created character sheets and inventories, since this is a session for new players. If the DM intends to force inter-player cooperation, buying that club at the town before entering the dungeon (because they have 0gp), and before getting "TOTALLY RANDOM SKELETON FIGHT! GO!" thrown at them might not be realistic.

And yeah, dex based fighter, but that is not something you want as the primary tank of the group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: ShoesandHats on March 25, 2017, 04:26:39 pm

Just to clarify, I'm running 5E. How much of that advice is still applicable? I'm not sure how much has changed between editions. Oh, and if it helps, the party comp is one rogue, one monk, one paladin, and one sorcerer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 25, 2017, 05:36:42 pm

Quote from: ShoesandHats on March 25, 2017, 04:26:39 pm

Just to clarify, I'm running 5E. How much of that advice is still applicable? I'm not sure how much has changed between editions. Oh, and if it helps, the party comp is one rogue, one monk, one paladin, and one sorcerer.

Undead are less of a problem in 5E for the most part because most of their immunities from 3.5 simply aren't there anymore. Zombies get a fun trick where they can keep getting up if they roll well and nobody thinks to deploy fire/radiant, but other than that they're not super different from any other monster.

Also there's no Power Attack, but that's not so much of an issue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on March 25, 2017, 06:53:30 pm

Quote from: ShoesandHats on March 25, 2017, 04:26:39 pm

Just to clarify, I'm running 5E. How much of that advice is still applicable? I'm not sure how much has changed between editions. Oh, and if it helps, the party comp is one rogue, one monk, one paladin, and one sorcerer.

In 5e, rogues have very few limitations on sneak attack. It works on any creature, and to use it they either need advantage on the attack roll or they need an ally right next to the creature when they make the attack (the rogue can even do this from ranged). About the only limitation it has that the 3.5 rogue didn't is that they can only use their sneak attack once per turn (but not per round, so it can be used if they hit with an opportunity attack).

Skeletons are much easier to deal with, since bludgeoning damage isn't a requirement to hurt them, though it can be helpful. As I mentioned above, rogues can still sneak attack skeletons as well as anything else, and clerics are maybe not as spectacular against undead since healing magic no longer has any effect on them, but they can still turn them away, and they have probably the best access to spells that do radiant damage, which pretty much nothing has resistance other than things like angels, and nothing has immunity to it. Also, paladin's smite ability does more damage to undead, though this would probably be overkill against a normal skeleton. And monks bare-fisted attacks do bludgeoning damage, and they get to do multiple unarmed attacks per turn, so they can do pretty well against skeletons.

As for general encounter building, the DMG has a pretty effective guide for making encounters of a proper challenge level, though, depending on how competent or incompetent your group is, Your Mileage May Vary on how much more difficult or easy you want to make it from default. But just remember to budget enough xp for the level and number of players you have (the encounter difficulty chart is set per character) and factor in the difficulty multiplier per number of monsters you're using (this isn't supposed to increase the amount of xp you give for defeating the monsters, it's just to let you know how much more difficult a fight will be when you add more monsters.) If you don't want to calculate out encounters yourself, this is a very helpful site (http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder).

Beyond that, some extra things to be aware of when making encounters: Look at the stat-blocks of monsters you plan to use. Probably the most important thing to look out for is damage resistances and immunities. If your players don't have magic weapons, fights against things with damage resistance to non-magical weapons will likely be harder, and fights against creatures with outright immunity to them will likely be all but impossible (though things with damage immunity are probably above your xp budget if you're at running low levels). But also some monsters can have scary abilities, and one you definitely want to watch out for is the intellect devourer, which can easily destroy characters without much Intelligence, and was probably more meant to pad out high-level encounters or to be used as foreshadowing for such.

Also, to avoid making things too easy, try not to group up a lot of low hitpoint creatures together too much, or spellcasters with AoE's will absolutely destroy your encounters. And if players have magic items with a constant attack, damage, AC or saving throw boost, you can probably stand to throw a bit tougher encounters at them. Not that you necessarily need to, all challenges don't necessarily need to be level appropriate either way. And, if you have one character that's stronger than the others, it's usually a better idea to attack them where they're weakest rather than ramping up the total difficulty to match their strength (which will probably just have the effect of leaving other characters behind).

PREEDIT: NINJA'd A BIT

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 25, 2017, 07:03:53 pm

Highly important for 5E - unless the players completely screw the pooch, make absolutely sure they level up at the end of the first session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on March 25, 2017, 11:39:24 pm

So we did a one shot today of Star Wars, edge of the empire. It was a printed adventure, where we were running away from Temo the hutt and trying to get a space ship.

And that was the most murder hobo, I have been in a long while. We just solved everything with liberal amount of murder, and the only thing that boned us, was that we didnt apply enough murder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 25, 2017, 11:56:42 pm

RIFTS lesson: If it's still standing, nuke it harder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 25, 2017, 11:57:51 pm

It's the only way to be sure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 26, 2017, 03:55:19 am

When my children are old enough to read the Core Rulebook, I fully intend to teach them the value of solving your problems through copious application of murder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on March 26, 2017, 06:08:36 am

Quote from: ShoesandHats on March 25, 2017, 04:26:39 pm

Just to clarify, I'm running 5E. How much of that advice is still applicable? I'm not sure how much has changed between editions. Oh, and if it helps, the party comp is one rogue, one monk, one paladin, and one sorcerer.

5E more or less avoids most of the problems with undead. General structure of the game should still be the same. Expanding on Kadzar slightly, kobold fight club is awesome, but be wary of leaning too heavily on the CR system. In my experience it's not a brilliant representation (it's more or less optimised for lower levels with a number of monsters equal to the number of party members in my experience). That said, until you get some experience under your belt there isn't much else to go off :P Just don't be afraid to scale up/down future encounter based off how the current one's going.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 26, 2017, 02:57:36 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on March 25, 2017, 11:39:24 pm

So we did a one shot today of Star Wars, edge of the empire. It was a printed adventure, where we were running away from Temo the hutt and trying to get a space ship.

And that was the most murder hobo, I have been in a long while. We just solved everything with liberal amount of murder, and the only thing that boned us, was that we didnt apply enough murder.

I'm in an EoTE campaign and I can confirm that murdering people is very mandatory, unavoidable, and profitable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 26, 2017, 03:34:27 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on March 26, 2017, 02:57:36 pm

I'm in an EoTE campaign and I can confirm that murdering people is very mandatory, unavoidable, and profitable.

Star Wars might ultimately be a story about the fall and redemption of heroes, but to get to that point a shitton of people had to die first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on March 27, 2017, 01:21:58 pm

I am seriously considering acquiring a pair of maces for my dex barbarian. As little sense as it makes, weapon finesse applies to light maces and the way the campaign is going, I really want blunt damage for killing skeletons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 27, 2017, 01:36:23 pm

A baseball bat is light but you can still bludgeon people really well with it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 03:08:07 pm

You can also defend yourself from someone with a baseball bat with a mid-weight jacket, so not really a good weapon per se.  Fine for an improvised bludgeon, not so good for combat.  You'd want something with more density, like a pipe, or tire iron, if you want real blunt force trauma.

Dual light maces sounds fun and different enough to be interesting, I'd go for it if I were you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 27, 2017, 03:42:45 pm

it was an analogy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 03:48:20 pm

Sorry, I tend to take discussions about inflicting injuries far more seriously than most, dark 'n mysterious past and all that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 27, 2017, 04:10:01 pm

Quote from: Arx on March 27, 2017, 01:21:58 pm

I am seriously considering acquiring a pair of maces for my dex barbarian. As little sense as it makes, weapon finesse applies to light maces and the way the campaign is going, I really want blunt damage for killing skeletons.

To admit Weapon Finesse only increases your hit chance not your damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 04:20:51 pm

"All the power in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit something with it."  Me, paraphrasing something, right now.  (Yes, I know that strength also increases your chance to hit, it's a stupid quote with a stupid message.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 27, 2017, 04:24:00 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 04:20:51 pm

"All the power in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit something with it."  Me, paraphrasing something, right now.

Well the reason why "It works with Weapon Finesse?" is because it is counter to the idea of weapon finesse.

Which is more about wrist control and careful movements. Moving your skill through delicate dexterous movements instead of shows of might.

Using Light Maces with Weapon Finesse gives me the hilarious image of wielding them like they were drum sticks. Which while hilarious I think is canonical to how you are actually pulling it off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on March 27, 2017, 04:27:07 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on March 27, 2017, 04:24:00 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 04:20:51 pm

"All the power in the world doesn't matter if you can't hit something with it."  Me, paraphrasing something, right now.

Well the reason why "It works with Weapon Finesse?" is because it is counter to the idea of weapon finesse.

Which is more about wrist movements and careful movements. Moving your skill through delicate dexterous movements instead of shows of might.

Using Light Maces with Weapon Finesse gives me the hilarious image of wielding them like they were drum sticks. Which while hilarious I think is canonical to how you are actually pulling it off.

...

I imagine it's a lot more like using tonfa than drumsticks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 04:31:11 pm

No, neo's got the right of it here, the 'finesse' method of fighting with light maces would look a lot like using a percussive instruments' sticks.  Minimal arm motion, quick flicks and rapid, repeated motions.  Tonfa are more often used for rapid thrusts and trapping maneuvers (at least in every demonstration I've ever seen.  Which admittedly does not cover every style that they may be used with)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on March 27, 2017, 04:37:30 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 04:31:11 pm

No, neo's got the right of it here, the 'finesse' method of fighting with light maces would look a lot like using a percussive instruments' sticks.  Minimal arm motion, quick flicks and rapid, repeated motions.  Tonfa are more often used for rapid thrusts and trapping maneuvers (at least in every demonstration I've ever seen.)

Let me see if I can find a video of someone using tonfa in a tokushu grip...

Bah, I can't find a good video on short notice. Tokushu-mochi is where you flip the tonfa and grip from the long end, making it into a very light hammer/hooked club.

I've only really played small drums, and the idea of trying to use light masses in the manner of minor drumsticks seems rather ridiculous .

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 04:38:49 pm

Well, a little less like traditional western drumsticks, more like other percussive hammers, still his analogy was rather apt, all things considered.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on March 27, 2017, 04:44:03 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 04:38:49 pm

Well, a little less like traditional western drumsticks, more like other percussive hammers, still his analogy was rather apt, all things considered.

Fair play, just not my initial imagine of drumsticks, which are...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Traditional_Grip.jpg/330px-Traditional_Grip.jpg)

Wielding any weapon like that is a hilariously silly idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 27, 2017, 05:18:31 pm

Make it "use collapsible batons that way", and you have a real winner.

Now I want to try making a purely fantasy weapon class of "contact" wand weapons. Basically a magic wand that does not do ray damage, or area damage. Instead, the tip of the wand has a concentrated spell effect, akin to a hot poker-- but with any effect you can accomplish with magic. That way, finesse "drumming" somebody with one could be damned leathal. (I pokey the petrification wand RIGHT HERE, and BAM-- guy is dead instantly.) It is not how hard you hit, it is that you hit at all, and where you hit. Those would be true DEX type magic weapons. Imagine "pinpoint" application of a spell effect, on contact. (If it helps the imagination, a petrification wand of this type would have a small curl of falling dust falling off the end, as the tip of the wand interacts with the air in the room, turning it into stone- etc. Only the material that comes into literal contact with the tip of the wand gets affected.)

I suppose something similar already exists for special poisons on a shortblade, but that still requires actual penetration, which means dealing with armor. This would have the 'on contact' type effect of a touch range spell effect, but not require a magical proficiency from the user, just a weapon class proficiency. (Wands have a fixed effect, and number of contact charges. They are "just on", so dont need active channeling from a spellcaster. When they run out of juice, they need recharging though.)

Probably a silly idea though.  The whole idea is that while they do very little damage on touch, they are dex weapons, and can be used to touch repeatedly and precisely. (Think-- drummer doing a highspeed drumroll on somebody's head, but using these as drumsticks. That's several hundred strikes in one action point.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 27, 2017, 05:25:03 pm

yeah but then you would have to touch them on their bare skin or otherwise just their clothes are affected

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 27, 2017, 05:47:13 pm

Which, depending on the effect, could be just exactly what you want. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2017, 05:58:35 pm

Shrink Object.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 05:59:46 pm

Rusting Grasp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2017, 06:33:29 pm

Invisibility.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 27, 2017, 06:35:52 pm

levitation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 27, 2017, 06:36:44 pm

Disintegration.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 27, 2017, 06:40:19 pm

burden/increase weight

Yeah-- There's a lot of effects that would be useful when focused on a particular object or part of an object. Precision application could have all kinds of hilarity ensue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 27, 2017, 06:40:52 pm

Inflict Heavy Wounds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 27, 2017, 06:53:39 pm

That would need to be on bare skin to be effective though.  That would be the best way to balance that, as it would be deadly OP otherwise. (allowing a dozen strikes of deal heavy wounds in 1 AP, would be waay too OP in many circumstances. It needs nerfing. Asserting straight up that these weapons only affect what they directly come into contact with is pretty important. Raking a disintegration wand across a shirt of chainmail would disintegrate the rings in the mail, making the shirt fall apart, for instance-- but hitting the monster in the back with it would just cause nasty disintegration burns/lacerations where the wand touched, much like a dagger. Doing the same thing with a deal heavy wounds wand would blow the bad guy apart/cut him in half-- Maybe only give it a handful of charges, and make it slower to use? )

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on March 27, 2017, 09:54:57 pm

Unlimited uses, but it can overheat and melt down, causing everything in the vicinity to become subject to the wand's effect.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 28, 2017, 01:51:39 am

Quote from: wierd on March 27, 2017, 05:18:31 pm

Make it "use collapsible batons that way", and you have a real winner.

Now I want to try making a purely fantasy weapon class of "contact" wand weapons. Basically a magic wand that does not do ray damage, or area damage. Instead, the tip of the wand has a concentrated spell effect, akin to a hot poker-- but with any effect you can accomplish with magic. That way, finesse "drumming" somebody with one could be damned leathal. (I pokey the petrification wand RIGHT HERE, and BAM-- guy is dead instantly.) It is not how hard you hit, it is that you hit at all, and where you hit. Those would be true DEX type magic weapons. Imagine "pinpoint" application of a spell effect, on contact. (If it helps the imagination, a petrification wand of this type would have a small curl of falling dust falling off the end, as the tip of the wand interacts with the air in the room, turning it into stone- etc. Only the material that comes into literal contact with the tip of the wand gets affected.)

I suppose something similar already exists for special poisons on a shortblade, but that still requires actual penetration, which means dealing with armor. This would have the 'on contact' type effect of a touch range spell effect, but not require a magical proficiency from the user, just a weapon class proficiency. (Wands have a fixed effect, and number of contact charges. They are "just on", so dont need active channeling from a spellcaster. When they run out of juice, they need recharging though.)

Probably a silly idea though.  The whole idea is that while they do very little damage on touch, they are dex weapons, and can be used to touch repeatedly and precisely. (Think-- drummer doing a highspeed drumroll on somebody's head, but using these as drumsticks. That's several hundred strikes in one action point.)

Huh.  Neat idea, though hard to balance maybe.  It did get me thinking about similar options that exist within (or near) the rules.

First off, normal wands with touch-attacks sound close...  But aren't really.  RAW, you don't actually poke the enemy with the wand, you simply activate it to gain a touch-attack charge.  Then you have to touch the enemy with your body.  Natural weapons and punches count (even through gloves), but a 10ft pole or a wand would not.  But that's pretty minor.  The main issue is that you can't cast multiple spells using BAB.  That would be potentially OP as heck unless heavily restricted.

I say that, then I find out Duskblades can... sorta.  At level 3 they get Arcane Channeling, which lets them use melee weapons to deliver touch spells (they also avoid AoO for the casting).  At level 13, they can do this as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects everyone they hit that round.  Pretty sweet... even though it doesn't seem to stack up on single targets, uses a spell (from their crappy list), and still has to be melee.  They also have to hit with the melee weapons, overcoming full AC instead of touch AC.  Except that there are rare ways to make your melee weapon attacks against touch AC.  The "brilliant energy" enchantment for +4 basically does that.

Rereading the original idea... it involved bonking someone, several times a round, using dex, without magical ability.  So let's forget the Duskblade thing and just build a weapon:

Code: [Select]

Light mace (qualifies for weapon finesse)
Enchanted with Brilliant Energy for 4, basically making it use touch attacks
Enchanted with some combination of flaming, frost, and shock for +1d6 damage each.
Stack on some plain magical enhancement to further increase bonus damage per hit, and hit chance.
To make it more baton-like, use ironwood.Make two and dual-wield...  It's going to be hard to miss most targets.  Hell, pick up some extra arms from savage species if possible.

Of course these would be *wildly* expensive and really not worth it, but that's okay :P

Now for some variants that abandon the concept but still sound fun with brilliant energy and dex:
Whip.  Reach weapon that works with weapon finesse.
Daggers.  As throwing weapons, these would be like casting ray spells...  Except outlandishly expensive, but using iterative attacks and reusable.
Quarterstaff, so you could pretend to be Grey Star (a wizard character by Joe Dever who could channel energy into his staff's tip during combat)
Kukri, along with extended crit range, to really make the most of those flaming bursts...  But that's getting way off topic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 28, 2017, 05:13:54 am

I just had a massive trainwreck of concepts do a total derail inside my head, and the result is something I cannot look away from. I will spoilerize.

Preface: I really enjoy the act of world building-- more than I do playing other people's worlds. If you find something you like, you may steal. I do not mind.

Spoiler: Trainwreck. You are warned. (click to show/hide)

Ok, the first part of this trainwreck is the "on-touch" wands suggested previously. But, as the day wore on, I checked my mail, read slashdot, came back here to see replies, and a number of totally unrelated concepts collided with others that had unresolved but unspoken issues.

From slashdot, there was a discussion about literary heads FINALLY admitting that gender-neutral singular "their" is acceptable to use as a singular pronoun.

From here, there was of course, the wands topic, (and the festering unresolved issues of-- If you accepted this mechanic, you are going to end up packing a lot of dangerous wands in your swag bag to keep a balanced fighting style; Given this, what would be the core essence of such a fighting style? (consider the various ethos involved in the various Asian martial arts, and how they shape and govern those respective fighting styles, which leads to another problem: Why only one fighting style? Simplicity alone is not compelling, story wise.)

Then Rolan had to go and suggest a multi-armed savage outsider race.

Once started, the trainwreck could not be stopped. Other ideas that had festered quietly like simmering pots of reduction glaze for roasted chicken, lept out to be applied-- Riotous insight refused to be silent.

Out sprang this protean nucleus of a fan-made supplementary source book:

Imagine a race of beings that have limited true hiveminds; Each "person" is actually a synthesis of 5 individuals that, upon reaching maturity, fuse together to become one being. When these creatures reproduce, they use the genetic material of all 5 members of their being to fashion variegated offspring, but each offspring will ultimately join with 4 others, to one day become an adult.

Each "adult" member has 5 arms, 10 legs, and 5 eyes. They have radial symmetry, and "snap together" like pie wedges, so to speak. There is no "front" or "back" to such adult creatures. Their eyes face outward from the central axis of radial symmetry, and once fully integrated together, all 5 eyes work together for the newly matured creature.

During childhood, each "segment" has 2 legs, 1 arm, and 1 eye. They are clumsy (anatomically, they really need the others to be whole and balanced), but are able to perform autonomous movement, are capable of "speech" (such as it is), making independent decisions and actions, but have a very limited basis of experience to draw from, and are "unbalanced" in both mind and body. During maturation, they will form social ties with others of their approximate age, and form a coalition, which will then merge to become a new adult member of their society. Each child is also imprinted with a simplified distillation of the knowledge of its parent, but without the prism of 4 other minds to properly make sense of it, it becomes the subject of the child's own unique understanding/interpretation of that knowledge. In this way, the knowledge and understanding of the parent is transferred, but experiences a kind of genetic drift between parent and offspring.

Physically, they have a single gender. There are no males or females. Adults are simply fertile. Their basis as a polysynthesis provides genetic variation for evolutionary development and reproductive health.

Culturally, when developing, offspring are presented with various traditional choices, such as being presented with an array of tools, and seeing which the offspring takes the most favor to.  If the offspring favors a constructive implement,  it is further presented with choices later as it grows more capable of understanding, on what kind of instrument it most prefers-- Does it like doing artwork? Does it like caring for crops? -- Does it prefer martial pursuits? Etc.

Over-reaching in the adult society, is this metaphysical conception of "balance" and "wholeness".  Just like the child offspring are unbalanced without the 4 others it will one day join with, adult society is also unbalanced without other adults aligned with differing professions.  All farmers with no protectors, leaves the people with too much food laying around, and predators will surely come-- All protectors, and no craftsmen, and they starve or die of the elements. Due to the combined shared ancestry of this people, they are all aware of this instinctually, and so adult societies tend to be cosmopolitan, with adult syntheses taking on a variety of roles within a greater fabric of society.

Each adult is not "fully integrated" though.  Rather, much like humans can have mixed thoughts on something, this is the default mode for this race of beings. They literally have mixed thoughts, but otherwise still retain their individual child identities, likes, dislikes, prejudices, etc. Each "slice" of an adult thus ADDS to a whole, without being totally subsumed by that whole. This is very important, as it strongly colors how their speech and writing system works. To them, a "Whole thought" is really the simultaneous expression of a concept from *ALL FIVE* perspectives, at once. The subtle interplay between the word choices, intonations, pitches, and implied intents of the 5 statements, is a hallmark of how their humor, their philosophy, and culture work. For the adult, the concept of the "whole" is taken metaphorically, for they are still very much just 5 individuals sharing a strong mental and physical connection, and relying on each other to provide deeper meaning and understanding, which comes about because of their retained individuality, and thus unique perspective and focus. Because each "Slice" comes from a different parentage, the ancestral knowledge and experience they each bring, causes a profound cross pollination of culture and ideation. So much so, that a kind of cultural homogeneity naturally occurs, given sufficient mobility of individual offspring to find pairings (which is facilitated by adult meddling), all ideas are expressed in their entirety and full spectrum of expression within the society, and this is the high ideal they strive for with their metaphysical conceptions of balance, and wholeness. Their "family" structure is "very complex", as each adult progenitor is brought together with 4 others, when an offspring becomes an adult, for each offspring. (essentially, 4 sets of in-laws, per child.) Given that they have multiple offspring, the inter-relatedness of familial structure becomes very taxing to contemplate, but meshes nicely with their cultural ideals. It is from this complex interrelationship between adult syntheses, that effective identification, training, tracking, and suggested associations are accomplished, as the many adults in the society will seek the maximal expression of the individual will of that offspring, and the ideal pairing arrangements for it to achieve adult status later. 

Of further note, is that because these unions are not "total subduction" in nature, it is possible for two or more adults to willfully engage in a practice called "the knowing."  In this practice, the adults in question will split apart, but retain a majority of their gestalt parts. (eg, may dislodge a single slice, with a maximum of 2 slices dislodged at a time.), then present it to the other adult, who then integrates it. In this way, the two adults can have a very deep and profound understanding of the other, by sequentially performing this action, until all of the parts have been temporarily exchanged and returned. Discussion of this practice with "outsiders" is considered vulgar. It is the closest thing to sex that they have, and is a more spiritual and deep connection thing than a physical thing. Literally, it is to KNOW the other, completely. It also enables a practice that is considered antithetical to their society, which is the rejection of an individual part of such a union, permanently, in favor of retention of another.  It has the kind of stigma that divorce had 100 years ago, because it causes profound upset in the inter-related hierarchy that adults of this species create. This is seen as an act of disunity, unbalance, and discord. It is acceptable ONLY when a part of the adult whole dies, either from trauma, or from disease or old age.

Now that we have provided a germ for the physicality of the "Who", and given a nice foundation for the "why", here is how the trainwreck involves said wands, and even dex weapons in general:

Adults who are natural protectors (align with martial skills, and intrinsically seek to protect the wholeness of the society from predation or dangerous outside influences that would destroy that wholeness) will be comprised of individual offspring with weapon and tactical preferences. As a result of the cultural ideal of maximizing the educational and individualistic expression of each and every offspring combined with suggested optimal pairings, there are a wide assortment of "protector" specialties-- and the "dex weapon master" is one such creature.

Because the adult does not have a front, nor a back, it is *ALWAYS* facing the enemy, and can change direction of movement or attack at a whim. This is important, as it gives a profound physical advantage to dex based combat. Each "slice" of the adult has a weapon preference, and has high skill and independent action with that weapon. It can use that to its advantage, because one arm can wield a disintegrator wand, another a flame wand, another an ice wand, etc.  This has led to the creation of whole schools of dex combat specializing in a single class of weapon (whips, wands, swords, etc). So much so that sufficient variety of that weapon class is expressed in the weapon choices of an adult who masters such a discipline, that literally, a "Sword master" has in gestalt, mastered every kind of sword, and can sweep into combat like a spinning top of doom.

Which "hand" holds a weapon has pretty deep significance to these creatures, as that "hand" is independent, and has preferences.

These creatures should be able to wield such weapons (wands) brutally, as they can easily and quickly apply tactical use of up to 5 elemental damage types, in rapid succession, with brutal efficiency.

I have toyed with the idea of one such proficiency being with said wands, called "the way of 5 wands", Similar to japanese swordsmanship's "way of 2 swords". One hand wields the disintegration wand, and cuts through enemy armor. One hand uses the fire-tip wand, and sears sensitive sensory organs, like the eyes. Another uses the shock-tip wand, and paralyzes enemy limbs-- etc.

Personally, I would suggest having these be played as random encounter monsters or as NPCs, due to the many minded nature they represent.

However, the weapons they have invented through this unique culture can be adopted (less effectively or efficiently) by single minded creatures, like humans, resulting in less hollistic approaches to their use, as humans only have 2 hands, etc. (explaining why these weapons are unbalanced in human combat-- they are not meant for human combat. This opens the door to the improvised weapons penalty to stop OPness.)

The creatures need not always be hostile though, as the same qualities that make them fiendish combatants would also make them into master craftsmen, able to have simultaneous lifetime experiences in mastering a single skill with each hand, and being able to produce complex and elaborate pieces through honed cooperation of their component parts.  EG, one could hand them a damaged sword, and it could repair it while also restringing a bow, and fletching an arrow. etc. Just be sure to be polite, and hand the appropriate hand the correct item. ;P Likewise with political specialists, who could approach a political dispute from many directions at once.

A rule of thumb, is that adults tend to treat individuals from single minded races as if they were "child like", and have no problems thinking circles around most people.  They can easily have a shared INT score well above that of even the smartest elf mage, for instance, and can combine spell proficiencies that are not allowable to other races. EG-- can have parts that are from diametric schools of magic.)

Those qualities make them dangerous for player characters to control: player characters trying to control one, would need to have character sheets for each component personality it possesses, with back stories for each one, and skill trees for each one. They cant use them to "just get around those rules" (like diametric magic schools). Refusal to allow player use of one is acceptable as a DM strategy, but the alternative really is to force multiple character sheets for each part, and treat each part as an independent character, but assign status effects to all 5 at once when and if they stick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 28, 2017, 05:24:50 am

I'd classify them as aberrations simply for the horror factor of seeing multi-limbed flesh balls rolling around, but your description is too Lawful for that.  Still, the idea of five-bodied starfish people is nightmare fuel.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 28, 2017, 05:57:31 am

They borrow from, without actually being, HP Lovecraft's Elder Things, so nightmare fuel is a given. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 30, 2017, 10:45:27 pm

Pathfinder announced Ultimate Wilderness, a new Core book. Will feature a new class: the Shifter. People have been begging for a Wildshaping character other than the Druid for a long time, and it seems they'll finally get it.

Apparently they also revealed at least two other Core books some time ago, also supposed to come out this year. Seems like a lot of Core this year.

The only Core book I've been paying attention to is Bestiary 6.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 30, 2017, 11:19:18 pm

I'm just waiting for them to finally clarify what interaction traps have with Perception (1 check per 10 ft. square or 1 check per line of sight).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 30, 2017, 11:53:15 pm

Fair compromise:

Is perception augmented unnaturally, (magical supersenses, etc.) or is it natural senses?

If natural senses, line of sight.
If augmented unnaturally/clairvoyant, square foot radius.

Pulled from my ass of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 30, 2017, 11:55:15 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 30, 2017, 11:19:18 pm

I'm just waiting for them to finally clarify what interaction traps have with Perception (1 check per 10 ft. square or 1 check per line of sight).

If I remember correctly traps above a certain threshold automatically defeat perception and can only be found with search rolls.

So basically there is NO interaction between traps and perception.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on March 30, 2017, 11:56:52 pm

Doesnt that defeat the purpose of clairvoyance? EG, you can see it without your damned eyeballs-- it would need to be hidden magically to defeat, no?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2017, 12:02:03 am

Quote from: wierd on March 30, 2017, 11:56:52 pm

Doesnt that defeat the purpose of clairvoyance? EG, you can see it without your damned eyeballs-- it would need to be hidden magically to defeat, no?

Clairvoyance isn't exactly a spell used to spot traps... but there is no reason you cannot use search with Clairvoyance.

Clairvoyance specifically is a spell that lets you look at an area even if you are not there. It is "defeated" by anything that defeats normal perception.

As well you cannot use magical or supernatural senses through Clairvoyance. So if something was invisible it would be invisible even if you had true sight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 31, 2017, 09:44:07 am

The trouble is Pathfinder rolled Search and Spot and Listen skills into one big Perception skill ball, so you use the same skill to search for traps as you do to determine things you spot with the naked eye.

There's a huge table variation because of this, with some using 3.5e rules for a full round action per 5 ft. square, some using one check per 10 ft. cube, and some using one check and applying distance modifiers for the penalty up to line of sight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on March 31, 2017, 04:33:14 pm

Speaking of Pathfinder releases, apparently PF Spelljammer came out a little while back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on March 31, 2017, 05:38:01 pm

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9vk5 (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9vk5)

Looks like Paizo finally answered the damned FAQ! They've officially come out to state that searching for traps using Perception searches a 10 ft. square at maximum.

I'll be sad if this turns out to be an April Fools joke.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on March 31, 2017, 11:43:22 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on March 31, 2017, 09:44:07 am

The trouble is Pathfinder rolled Search and Spot and Listen skills into one big Perception skill ball, so you use the same skill to search for traps as you do to determine things you spot with the naked eye.

There's a huge table variation because of this, with some using 3.5e rules for a full round action per 5 ft. square, some using one check per 10 ft. cube, and some using one check and applying distance modifiers for the penalty up to line of sight.

Sorry the terminology REALLY confused me >_< mostly because there is also passive perception and active perception and searching.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on April 01, 2017, 06:37:48 pm

Quote from: Sirus on March 31, 2017, 04:33:14 pm

Speaking of Pathfinder releases, apparently PF Spelljammer came out a little while back.

That Starfinder thing?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on April 01, 2017, 06:44:29 pm

Quote from: scriver on April 01, 2017, 06:37:48 pm

Quote from: Sirus on March 31, 2017, 04:33:14 pm

Speaking of Pathfinder releases, apparently PF Spelljammer came out a little while back.

That Starfinder thing?

They're calling it Starjammer, after the D&D version I guess. Basically fantasy shenanigans IN SPACE.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 01, 2017, 07:05:34 pm

Quote from: Sirus on April 01, 2017, 06:44:29 pm

They're calling it Starjammer, after the D&D version I guess. Basically fantasy shenanigans IN SPACE.

That's the thing that the PFSRD people put out, isn't it? Paizo's own Starfinder comes out a bit later IIRC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 01, 2017, 11:57:54 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 30, 2017, 10:45:27 pm

the Shifter.

HNNNNNNNG

Oh my god i can't wait until November. The shifter from 3.5 was my favorite prestige class and now it might be a base class!?

I'm too hype.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 02, 2017, 02:18:09 am

I've been thinking of creating a sort of monster collection pen and paper RPG

But as I was thinking about it more and more I kind of realized how antagonistic that format is to actual roleplaying.

Dragon Ball RPG was an easier concept to get off the ground because at least I could externalize a lot of the things people have issues with and then simplify the rest.

Yet it just doesn't work that way with monster collection... even with my alternate idea that instead people create up to three monsters and stick with them.

I either have to think of a clever solution to this issue or think of something else.

I mean I GUESS I could... do... what The Last Remnant did... and instead monsters fight all at once as a group.

Goodness a Last Remnant game would be awesome with people being generals... and their skills and equipment in many ways are their extra party members.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on April 02, 2017, 03:14:54 am

PTW and laugh at the random encounters list.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 02, 2017, 03:44:31 am

Quote from: Gentlefish on April 01, 2017, 11:57:54 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on March 30, 2017, 10:45:27 pm

the Shifter.

HNNNNNNNG

Oh my god i can't wait until November. The shifter from 3.5 was my favorite prestige class and now it might be a base class!?

I'm too hype.

I've got some hopes for it as well, given that people have been asking for something like this for quite some time, but we've got nothing on it so far other than some descriptions:

Quote

A new 20-level base class, the shifter, puts animalistic powers into the hands—or claws—of player characters and villains alike, with a host of new class features derived from animalistic allegiances

Quote

The shifter, a new character class that harnesses untamed forces to change shape and bring a new level of savagery to the battlefield!

Can't be worse than the Hunter. I hope, anyways.

No playtest this time around, unfortunately. According to some Devs in the product's discussion page, the last few were full of vitriolic comments towards them, rather than actual, valuable feedback.

Checking the other upcoming Core books, we have:
Bestiary 6 in a month, with new playable races;
Adventurerer's Guide in May bringing a ton of Prestige Classes in, and strangely, Pathfinder world lore into their Core series. Usually Core books are setting agnostic;
Book of the Damned in September, for both people working for and against evil;
Ultimate Wilderness in November, featuring the wilderness. All kinds of wilderness, too, not just forests and junk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 02, 2017, 08:01:16 pm

The Hunter isn't really that bad though, is it? It's on 3/4, which kind of sucks, but you're 6 level spell progression and sample from Ranger and Druid, and your animal companion is more kickass that the Druid's.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 02, 2017, 08:51:31 pm

I jest. Though I do think it's on the weaker end of the scale when it comes to other hybrid classes.

0-6 Spell progression, with access to a Druid's spell-list, is rather nice, and your Companion is a bit better than other classes'. Plus Animal Foci save you gold that would have otherwise went to belts or other ability items. Teamwork feats are nice when you can actually share them, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 02, 2017, 09:03:22 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 02, 2017, 02:18:09 am

I've been thinking of creating a sort of monster collection pen and paper RPG

But as I was thinking about it more and more I kind of realized how antagonistic that format is to actual roleplaying.

Dragon Ball RPG was an easier concept to get off the ground because at least I could externalize a lot of the things people have issues with and then simplify the rest.

Yet it just doesn't work that way with monster collection... even with my alternate idea that instead people create up to three monsters and stick with them.

I either have to think of a clever solution to this issue or think of something else.

I mean I GUESS I could... do... what The Last Remnant did... and instead monsters fight all at once as a group.

Goodness a Last Remnant game would be awesome with people being generals... and their skills and equipment in many ways are their extra party members.

The fan made pokemon rpg, Pokenmon tabletop united, is really quite fun. Maybe you could take a look at it and get some inspiration or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 02, 2017, 09:21:02 pm

That game is horribly broken... I tried to fix it myself but I went about it in a ENTIRELY wrong way (At that point, I was making a videogame... not a pen and paper RPG)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 02, 2017, 09:54:53 pm

So...Go about it a different way this time?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 08:59:25 am

I know that I probably shouldn't ask because I can't expect a satisfactory answer from you, but alas, curiosity. What did you find particularly broken about it? I've played it a fair amount, and I gota say, in comparison to most rpgs I've played it's a lot more mechanically sound. I have some issues with it, particularly in experience point gain, but to be fair I've not played a single pen and paper rpg yet that's had a satisfactory character advancement scheme out of the box. Other then that it's not perfect, but certainly solid. I'd put it at around 5e level of "ease of play" at least.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 03, 2017, 01:43:50 pm

Quote

CHV (GM): rolling 3d6+6
(4+5+6)+6
= 21

Glorious melee combat with four-armed enemies is a hell of a drug. RIP Temurdai, you tanked some hits that would have one-shotted other party members even harder.

On the plus side, he went out the way any barbarian would want to: Enlarged, Raging, Blessed, and Flanking. 1d8+4 and 1d8+2 at a +7 to hit each. And he did even get to use the slightly ridiculous +11 acrobatics modifier more than once! No attacks of opportunity against this man.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 04:03:16 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 08:59:25 am

I know that I probably shouldn't ask because I can't expect a satisfactory answer from you, but alas, curiosity. What did you find particularly broken about it? I've played it a fair amount, and I gota say, in comparison to most rpgs I've played it's a lot more mechanically sound. I have some issues with it, particularly in experience point gain, but to be fair I've not played a single pen and paper rpg yet that's had a satisfactory character advancement scheme out of the box. Other then that it's not perfect, but certainly solid. I'd put it at around 5e level of "ease of play" at least.

In terms of just the Human character the game has almost a genius idea under its belt. Instead of multiclassing you ARE a multiclass and as you advance you pick other classes to go with. (Some being better than others)

It is just how it handles Pokémon, it takes its stats directly from the games without consideration on how it interacts with the game itself leading to some clear superior options. Though I recognize what they are trying to do.

I almost think it would have been better off using the games as a sort of guideline,

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 06:52:27 pm

I think that's actually quite a big strength of the system, the humans in it are all varied and interesting in what they can do, and the pokemon offer a solid foundation to make sure that the players stay on even pegging despite the very varied things that they can do. Like, yeah, most pokemon probably only have like 1 or 2 good ways to make them that make sense, but the variety there is in the fact that there's so many different pokemon and how they interact with trainer abilities. Not to mention there is at least some variety and some special things that lots of certain pokemon can do.

I wouldn't call this "horribly broken" at any rate. I wouldn't even call it broken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 07:05:28 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 06:52:27 pm

I wouldn't even call it broken.

Remember that a stat CANNOT overcome the stat above it. Meaning that stat "priority" becomes a major part of each pokemon (I have no idea why the game is constructed the way it is, it is like it wants to be the videogame... and wants to be the show... and wants to be a pen and paper RPG... but never decided which it would be)

That is one way in which it is broken.

Games just never last long enough AND people generally don't desire to break it over their knees. Both of these become an issue as soon as they start to manifest.

It has issues is all. It is a lot like that early DBZ RPG and Destructo Disk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 07:09:20 pm

Sure, but generally the stat that you need to increase is also like, the stat you want to increase? At least for most pokemon. Not to mention there's plenty of ways around it. Especially as you say in a long game, where you can just use vitamins to set up your base stats to whatever configuration you need for your build.

Anyway, if "possible to break the game" was a thing that makes an rpg game broken... Then pokemon is still one of the least broken rpgs, and also all rpgs are broken. So uh. Yeah. Not saying it doesn't have issues. Just that "horribly" isn't a very good description.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 07:16:44 pm

Quote

and also all rpgs are broken

When I say an RPG itself is broken... I mean it has a fundamental flaw that prevents it from being entirely functional under its own weight.

Most RPGs are not broken. The ability to break a game doesn't make it broken, in fact there are RPGs that outright state that the DM needs to check every character to make sure they aren't broken or that certain abilities need to be carefully used by players so as not to break the game. Champions, for example, has a lot of those.

My measure is... Does standard play naturally lead to irredeemable issues? or rather does it break even if people are not trying to break it, through natural play... and to what degree is this true and exemplifying of standard play.

A good example of this is Scion in Demigod play and higher where certain abilities (Just standard run of the mill ones that most characters have access to) just melt the gameplay down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 07:20:19 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 07:16:44 pm

The ability to break a game doesn't make it broken

Then why would you use that as an example of how a game is broken?

And also the base relations rule does not break the game in the way thus described. So uh. There we go I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:20:25 pm

I think the term 'broken' gets thrown around a bit too casually.  Really what most people mean when they say it is that it is easy to break the system through obvious combinations, but being easy to break does not automatically mean 'broken'.

'Broken' should be used for games that are obviously imbalanced from the get go, with base elements that render others completely meaningless (or at the very least mean gimping yourself to hell by focusing on them.)

Off the top of my head I can think of one serious example; RIFTS.

There is no point in playing anything other than a supernatural being or power-armored soldier.
Mages are completely useless, even at the highest levels of play, because almost no spell scales, and the few that do are terribly under-powered compared to basic equipment like laser rifles and body armor (to say nothing of PA and robot vehicles.)
Psionics are borderline usable especially at lower levels, but rapidly get left in the dust by more combat-centric classes.

Simply, if you don't have a huge number of attacks/actions and a massive amount of armor AND dodge, you are a utility character who is relegated to side roles in a game that (unintentionally, due to poor design choices) focuses almost exclusively on combat.

tl:dr, broken is overused, but raises a valid point about a game's design.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 07:26:01 pm

There are many ways a game itself can be broken.

But yes the ability to break isn't alone what makes something broken. Dungeons and Dragons has plenty of ways to break the game over your knee (and in fact 4e had to introduce an errata for two broken abilities).

I don't think "From the get go" is a valid requirement. Most broken games are relatively fine at the start... it is only once characters start growing in power that things start to sort of fall apart.

Nor do I think imbalance necessarily breaks a game... nor is the only way in which it can be broken. If, for example, it is for right (wait is that a word?) about the imbalance then it becomes thematic.

---

But as I said. The ability to break a game and its ability to be broken... does not what Broken make.

It is why I qualify it with "regular play, not attempting to break it"

At least the way I define it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:30:32 pm

Neo, by the definition you just posted every single pnp RPG would be 'broken'.  Because as the PCs gain power they gain the ability to bypass things that would have been mandatory at lower levels (through assorted means, intimidation, spells/abilities that allow flight/teleportation/invisibility etc.)

Broken stems from fundamental failures of balance and mechanics, if your game has those fundamental problems it is broken, if players are inventing ways to bypass things or otherwise damage gameplay, the problem is the GM and players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 07:32:42 pm

I think I'd generally agree with that Null. I mean, I'm pretty flexible in how I use words. I'd call both shadowrun and D&D broken, but mean totally different things. But yeah overall in the sense I think most people use when they say broken I agree, it's applicable to a game that just totally fails overall. Well. Honestly I might not even call that rifts example a broken game, certainly parts of it sound so, but I guess if the rest of the game is okay I'd only call the parts pertaining to the useless characters broken and the rest okay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 07:34:07 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:30:32 pm

Neo, by the definition you just posted every single pnp RPG would be 'broken'.  Because as the PCs gain power they gain the ability to bypass things that would have been mandatory at lower levels (through assorted means, intimidation, spells/abilities that allow flight/teleportation/invisibility etc.)

That... isn't "Broken" or "Breaking" because you didn't break the gameplay. I think you be stretching my definition far outside its boundaries.

In fact... It is contrary to what I listed which is that Dungeons and dragons is NOT broken. So you are inventing what I mean in order to contradict it (Which is Strawmanning)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:40:04 pm

RIFTS is badly done in so many other ways it would take hours, or possibly days, to cover them all.  The game is straight up broken, with broken abilities, classes, races, setting, and on and on.

Neo: I did not stawman you, your post is entirely too vague to get anything from it beyond: Players gain power and the game changes, and that is broken.  If you don't want to be misinterpreted, be more detailed when posting on a subject.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 07:41:29 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:40:04 pm

Neo: I did not stawman you, your post is entirely too vague to get anything from it beyond: Players gain power and the game changes, and that is broken.  If you don't want to be misinterpreted, be more detailed when posting on a subject.

All I said was that a game doesn't need to be broken from the start... to be broken... and that most games, that are broken, start to break once characters gain power. As in "The problem that didn't exist before, exists after a condition has been met" rather than "The condition is the problem"

Which you interpreted as being "Ohh, being more powerful means you are broken" which is a stretch even by my "Being vague" measure... because it requires you to draw upon total nonsense and to super impose it even when it is being directly contradicted.

There is understandable misinterpretation and then there is... well... what just happened. Especially in a conversation where I am arguing against two people where an intentional misinterpretation would go in your favor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 03, 2017, 07:44:36 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:40:04 pm

RIFTS is badly done in so many other ways it would take hours, or possibly days, to cover them all.  The game is straight up broken, with broken abilities, classes, races, setting, and on and on.

RIP RIFTS I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:45:42 pm

When the words you posted are very literally: "Most broken games are relatively fine at the start... it is only once characters start growing in power that things start to sort of fall apart."  And I just copy pasted that from your post so don't gripe about being misquoted.

Half the reason you provoke all of these arguments is because you won't slow down and elaborate on what you are trying to say, and instead just slap down something vague on the subject and then complain that the words you used, that could be interpreted in a number of ways, aren't being construed properly.

We cannot read your mind, if you want to tell us something you must state it in a fashion that conveys the information effectively.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 07:49:24 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:45:42 pm

When the words you posted are very literally: "Most broken games are relatively fine at the start... it is only once characters start growing in power that things start to sort of fall apart."  And I just copy pasted that from your post so don't gripe about being misquoted.

Yes but you took the phrase "Once characters start growing in power" as to mean "Because characters can grow in power"

Which are completely separate phrases that differ in meaning that are not at all similar...

I mean MAYBE you can stretch Once to infer direct causation... But to change start to can... I mean you directly quoted it, but you never really told me where you drawn the meaning from within that quote.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 07:53:14 pm

This is probably starting to come off as confrontational, I am sorry if that is the case as that is not my intent.

Neo, you made the statement, with no supporting data, and then expected someone you have never even spoken with face to face, and does not know your habits, speech patterns, or conversational tendencies, to interpret said statement as if they were in possession of the same data you are.  You say it has a different meaning, but at this point what you are arguing is semantics, and you are doing so in a void, because the other parties involved have no idea what you actually intended.

Also here is the problem with your previous statement: "it is only once characters start growing in power that things start to sort of fall apart"  This portion, in an information void, is just about the most misleading, non-informative statement on the subject possible, you provided no actual examples, no attempt was made to explain what was meant by 'start to fall apart'.

The whole line fell completely flat and failed to convey anything beyond: PC+Power=game breaking.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 08:04:44 pm

I am going to do what I should do and retype what I wrote for clarification.

My definition of a broken game. Is one that through natural gameplay, where one doesn't try to break it, breaks in some way.

A game doesn't need to start broken but through natural gameplay eventually it must, or very likely, hit a point where the game breaks. Typically games that break later do so because some power the player's obtain later on cause the gameplay to break down, become moot, or become horribly unfun, for example if a character can ignore all damage every other turn, than battle CAN take twice as long, or more, IF the game doesn't compensate for it.

The ability for a game to break itself isn't a qualifier to be broken. Most games have some ability to game the system irrevocably either by accident or by design and it is often up to the players and DM to make sure it never steers too far into that territory. The qualifier is whether or not a game breaks through the natural course of the game rather than through an imposition or uncontrolled action.

A game is broken when the game either becomes unplayable, unfun (This is a more complicated issue. A game isn't broken just because it isn't fun to play), the mechanics break down (Everyone autosucceeds forever), or there are serious gaps.

Likewise what breaks a game also must do so within its own sphere. Unbalance is terrible... and Rifts is likely broken (I haven't read it). Yet that is because Rifts isn't meant to be horribly unbalanced... it is just a horrible unbalanced game... Yet a game that isn't meant to be balanced, doesn't necessarily hit that issue (unless... it has egregious issues... which can happen)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 08:09:25 pm

That is much better, now you are conveying meaning.

Okay, I've got a couple of points here

Point no. 1: If the game breaks down through organic play then there is a fundamental flaw in either it's balance or rules, this flaw (or flaws) may not be visible on even a comprehensive read-through, and may only become apparent during play.

Point no. 2: If the game is flawed in such a way, then it is 'broken' as per my definition up above, through fundamental imbalance or mechanical failure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 08:11:58 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 08:09:25 pm

That is much better, now you are conveying meaning.

Okay, I've got a couple of points here

Point no. 1: If the game breaks down through organic play then there is a fundamental flaw in either it's balance or rules, this flaw (or flaws) may not be visible on even a comprehensive read-through, and may only become apparent during play.

Point no. 2: If the game is flawed in such a way, then it is 'broken' as per my definition up above, through fundamental imbalance or mechanical failure.

Ohh yeah! I made some edits a little late...

By serious imbalance not necessarily meaning the game is broken... I meant when that is intentional (barring... other serious issues with balance... like making the weak characters useless and the strong characters Omni-useful). Rifts is definitely not that case.

The only part of your definition I had issue with was that the "only" way to break a game was balance... And that the "only" time a game could be broken was the start.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 08:21:04 pm

I wasn't really trying to infer that those were the 'only' ways for a game to be broken, and I agree that if part of the game's basic premise is for certain things to be imbalanced then it is not necessarily broken (but still might be.)

As for the 'from the get go' part was that the imbalance/mechanics problem was always there, because it is built in. not that it was immediately obvious.

As for RIFTS, it's a kitchen sink setting made by a man who thinks copy-paste = editing and reusing assets from his other products without adjusting them = design.  Of course it's broken to hell and back, the first thing any serious RIFTS GM does is fundamentally re-write the core rules for some level of consistency.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 03, 2017, 08:26:48 pm

Well my interpretation of "From the Getgo" was that you meant "At level 1"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 03, 2017, 08:27:40 pm

This is why vagueness is bad and explanations are good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 04, 2017, 01:38:19 am

Party went into a very rushed DF based dungeon that had been rushed through thanks to a bratty player (I had a talk with them and it won't happen again)

This next session coming up will have the party sneak into (and most likely fail the sneak part) the Duregar volcano, where they are looking for the rod of the first dwarf; an artifact I came up with.

My dwarves in my world are reclusive masters of forges and weapon-making. They aren't as inclined to seek the arcane, but they excel in the front of tech (as much as you can without being in Eberron).

All of their fancy weapons are attempts at recreating the rod's power. The rod itself could change itself to suit whatever needs the first dwarf, Durin, needed. The dwarves can only make weapons swap between two kinds of weapons (the switch axe becomes a hammer or an axe, the blade spear had a collapsible handle that could make it a long spear or a broadsword). The difference is, those weapons cannot be enchanted, but this artifact has one that grows with the weilder. And it can be used as an implement.

There is also an extra effect on it that allows the weilder to mimic the effect of a random magical item once every long rest. While I don't have the table yet, some effects will range from a +1 to armor and saving throws to summoning stuff from the bag of tricks list.

Oh, and the party will discover that the Duregar weapons are using a corrupted type of iron that was fused in with flakes of terrasque bone, as the Duregar dug too deep and found the terrasque' hiding place, and found they could harvest bits from it and it wouldn't awaken (scraping pieces of claws, etc).

The king himself would be clad in full gear made out of pure terrasque bone (it's a +3 non-magical scale mail) and would be an optional boss, as the objective is to get th artifact and leave.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 01:58:30 am

Prepare for the GENOCIDE RUN!  (At least if these were my players, not so much because they like to murderhobo, but because the thought of leaving a living enemy (that I created) behind them fills them with bowel loosening terror.)

Actually, I just realized how utterly insane the lengths my players go to in order to remove potential threats really are, among the standouts: Using demolition charges to obliterate an ancient ruined city, filled with amazing magical and technological marvels, in order to destroy a mid-sized (few thousand) army of skeletons; Using an orbital doomsday weapon to crack a continent in half in order to drown a shit-ton of vampires (RIFTS says vamps take lethal damage from water); Convincing an avatar of the GM to erase an entire universe for all time to stop an endless devouring horde; building a multi-national fleet of starships numbering into the millions to 'rescue' some captured family members from a despotic (arguably) evil empire of supernatural entities, and those are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Maybe I went a little harsh on them when we started gaming?  I didn't really kill that many characters or NPCs or anything, but they seem insanely determined to prevent anything like an actual 'villain' from coming into being in my campaigns.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 04, 2017, 04:56:39 am

Quote from: Arx on April 03, 2017, 01:43:50 pm

Quote

CHV (GM): rolling 3d6+6
(4+5+6)+6
= 21

Glorious melee combat with four-armed enemies is a hell of a drug. RIP Temurdai, you tanked some hits that would have one-shotted other party members even harder.

On the plus side, he went out the way any barbarian would want to: Enlarged, Raging, Blessed, and Flanking. 1d8+4 and 1d8+2 at a +7 to hit each. And he did even get to use the slightly ridiculous +11 acrobatics modifier more than once! No attacks of opportunity against this man.

Aw man, sorry for your loss. I feel your pain. I'm playing Amiri the iconic Barbarian in a Pathfinder game this Friday, and I'm sincerely hoping I don't end up with the same fate. I've got a Wand of Cure Light Wounds for her and a bunch of other survival gear, so I'm hoping I can face whatever comes up, but at level 1 all it takes is a lucky crit. Still, with 17 hp when raging it'd take more than 32 damage to take her permanently out of a fight.

Plus I've got a dog and a bear trap. There's gotta be something I can work with there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 04, 2017, 06:08:50 am

I'm not actually too bothered, it was inevitably his fate (flavour wise, he really wasn't scared of dying). He was a fairly strange Barbarian, only 13 con and no boosts from Rage (Savage Technologist archetype, 10pt buy because the party is big). 23 hitpoints total (level 2), which is enough to stay standing through most things, but already slightly injured from a previous fight, it wasn't great. Stayed alive but unconscious for a couple rounds, then in the most fitting possible of ends a stray bomb from the Alchemist (a fire-resistant Tiefling that sometimes forgets other people aren't) put him to -13. :P

I'm thinking of rolling up a Magus as a replacement, although I'm not sure it's necessarily very helpful for the current party/campaign. Or I might break out some kind of battle Cleric, if anyone has thoughts on how to roll that on a 10pt buy. :P

Good luck not dying! Justifying avoiding combat as a Barb can be entertaining.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 04, 2017, 06:28:13 am

Combat cleric ideas (because it's what I'm doing): Mix of good Str and Wis, emphasis on the latter, a good weapon, maybe Channel Ray for selective Channel Negative Energy if you go that way...

Uh... Power Attack? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 04, 2017, 06:35:37 am

Maybe consider a Warpriest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/). The blessings have an awesome amount of low level buffs, and you have access to the Cleric spell list up to 6th level spells. You also use 2nd level Fervor to get a swift action heal for yourself in combat. Destruction, Nobility and War are awesome team buffs, and Protection and Strength have great stuff for yourself. It's a compromise between pure Paladin and Cleric, without the MAD (multiple attribute dependency) that plagues Paladins and with more martial ability compared to pure Cleric.

Or just play a summoner of any flavour. Summoned monsters don't give a damn about your low character stats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on April 04, 2017, 08:24:15 am

That is something I have often wondered about in terms of a fantasy magic setting.  The use of magic to temporarily give corporeal form (similar to a ghost, but not the same as) to a powerfully imagined creature, or schizophrenic personality.  EG, "what happens when somebody with multiple personality disorder, uses magic to manifest that alt-persona as a semi-physical entity" at one side of the spectrum (extreme)-- and "I have a VERY VERY profound active imagination, and have created a narrative persona that can persist for short periods independently of myself when so channeled" at the other. (EG, JK Rowling might be able to conjure Harry Potter, having fully contemplated his character, ethos, appearance, etc-- if she had the magical ability to expel her inner conception as a physical aparition.)

Assuming a permanent link with the conjurer, (it actually is seated in the mind of the conjurer, not in the apparition it puppet masters), the "death/destruction" of the conjured form would only temporarily banish the apparition-- it would retain knowledge from each time it has been conjured, and grow more and more sophisticated as a conjured being, approaching the extreme version toward the end (actual multiple personality/latent personality) and may represent entirely different skills and abilities than those of the conjurer. Perhaps even seeking to find ways to free itself from the "prison" of the conjurer's mind. (such as via a soul-stone, or other form of phylectory, to serve as an alternative physical anchor to reside in.)

I have considered this a good long while, as for a time, I had considered creating my own pen and paper game engine that would feature such a basis for conjuration. (Where it would cover everything from a simple illusion or parlor trick-- (think magical ventriloquism) to actual "war summons", like the conjuration of an actual being of existential horror to cause unspeakable destruction on a battlefield-- and everything between.) I had considered that there must be a 'cost' to the complexity and capability of such a summon, such as incapacitation/trance of the summoner while active, or a sliding scale of such deficit, depending on the intensity/realness/independent agency of the summon.  For the ventriloquist, very little impairment happens, but the summoned "dummy" does not really have independent agency, and is just a puppet of the imagination of the conjurer.  In the case of "I summon my inner daemons to rend you apart", the independent agency of the summoned creatures taxes the mind of the summoner, and they have to relent to the agency of the summon, and are thus unconscious on the floor while it tirades around.

One of the consequences I had envisioned for this, if not properly managed or the discipline not followed with proper care, is the ultimate degeneration of the conjurer into absolute madness, as the mind of the conjurer cannot handle having the many minds active inside it that the more advanced form of this practice would produce with time, leading inexcoribly to the directed effort of either the conjurer or the conjured, to seek removal/scion of the conjured into an external construct, where it would act more like a golem-- and being free of its creator, and imbued with individual agency, rebel against its creator's whims, especially if misused.

I dont think any actual existing source book takes that approach though.

I had considered a few possible mechanics to deal with this, such as dividing the base stats and level of the conjurer with that of how many summons he sustains, and that when they are active, he does not have use of that portion of his stat score--  so that, say-- he has 8 int-- He either conjures and unintelligent construct (ventriloquist dummy), with an int of 0 (because it lacks agency)-- or it is some sliding whole quantity thereof-- with the extreme of "summon has all of the stat score, conjurer gets none-- eg, unconscious or unresponsive" as the other far extreme-- at no time does the conjurer+summon(s) score ever exceed the conjurer's base stat score. Being a conjuration, the "body" of the projection is made of magic, so its effective stats (STR, DEX, et al) need to come from somewhere/have some kind of rational basis based on the magical proficiency of the conjurer, but I never got around to that. Considered having it be level dependent.

I had considered having the strength/power of the conjuration be tied with this very deeply, so that the abilities of the summon have to be tied to the potential present in the conjurer somehow-- such as levels invested in conjuration as a skill tree. This way if the conjurer is only a level 3 of this discipline, the conjured being cannot have more than 3 levels of skills at its disposal, at the maximum, with the number of levels it has access to, tied to how "deeply" the conjurer invested this manifestation of the conjured being. (EG, how much of his base stats he imbued it with when he projected it.) -- a kind of thinking that "a thing can only be as big as the box that contains it" in this case, the ability potential of the conjurer.

Because the conjured entity can become wholly intellectually distinct from that of its creator/conjurer, the kind of relationship it has with the conjurer will determine weather or not allowing a full manifestation (conjurer is basically a barely breathing corpse on the ground with no defensive rolls at all) is "safe" to perform or not. (the summon may prefer nihilistic self-destruction over continued servitude, and seek to destroy the conjurer as soon as it possibly can.) Likewise, if the relationship is very positive, (say, healthy parent+child relations), the conjuration would honestly and earnestly seek to protect the conjurer, as it genuinely loves its parent.

EG, the conjurer may decide it is a good idea to lock himself in the top of a tower, conjure his most powerful summon this way, and be content to lay comatose on his bed behind a locked door way upstairs, while his apparition deals serious chaos downstairs-- the destruction of the summon does not destroy the mind of the summon-- it just banishes it temporarily, causing the conjurer to wake up with a start. With some cooldown, can return to the trance, and manifest the summon again, and again. Keep in mind, the summon is NOT the summoner, it is a projection of some alternative perception or imagined being of the summoner.

The desire to either be free of either "a psychotic daemon of my own making", or to "finally be able to hold my dearest child/sweetest love", would be the impetus for the ultimately impossible to avoid final stage of the condition, where the summon is either banished to an external repository (and possibly destroyed), or given independent permanent agency thereby, severing the link with the conjurer in both cases, and removing any direct will based control over the summon (and vis-versa!)

Not anywhere near ready as a custom profession template, by any means, just sharing that I had done some preliminary thought work into such a thing, in case anyone found it interesting.







 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 04, 2017, 11:25:45 am

I remember us talking about flying creatures "not being flat-footed",

Quote

Finally, the statement “You are not considered flat-footed while flying” means that flying (unlike balancing using Acrobatics or climbing) doesn’t automatically make you flat-footed or force you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC; it doesn’t mean that flying makes you immune to being caught flat-footed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 04, 2017, 12:33:05 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 04, 2017, 06:35:37 am

Maybe consider a Warpriest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/). The blessings have an awesome amount of low level buffs, and you have access to the Cleric spell list up to 6th level spells. You also use 2nd level Fervor to get a swift action heal for yourself in combat. Destruction, Nobility and War are awesome team buffs, and Protection and Strength have great stuff for yourself. It's a compromise between pure Paladin and Cleric, without the MAD (multiple attribute dependency) that plagues Paladins and with more martial ability compared to pure Cleric.

Or just play a summoner of any flavour. Summoned monsters don't give a damn about your low character stats.

Warpriest miiight just be exactly what I wanted. The party is hurting for lack of heals and for lack of a frontline tank (especially so with Temurdai down). I enjoy being an impenetrable wall anyway. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 04, 2017, 12:45:23 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on April 04, 2017, 11:25:45 am

I remember us talking about flying creatures "not being flat-footed",

Quote

Finally, the statement “You are not considered flat-footed while flying” means that flying (unlike balancing using Acrobatics or climbing) doesn’t automatically make you flat-footed or force you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC; it doesn’t mean that flying makes you immune to being caught flat-footed.

Where's that quote from? Not because I don't believe you but because if I need to quote it for something I'd like a source to refer to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on April 04, 2017, 12:56:05 pm

It's from here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151000.msg7412797#msg7412797).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 04, 2017, 01:33:04 pm

It's from the PF FAQ apparently, I think this goes directly to the answer:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9u63

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on April 04, 2017, 01:42:52 pm

Yes, I am sure the "paralysis causes instant falling, even for magical flight" mechanic won't be abused.. (Rolls eyes)

Oh, hai giant flying genie! Your desc says you weigh almost a ton, yet you magic-fly so high my arrows can't reach? I use the the equal of a flashbang to stun you at range, (with a lucky/loaded roll), which paralizes you momentarily. Guess what now? You fall down, go boomboom, cause magic flight works the way it does! (Trollface)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 01:45:31 pm

I think in 3.5 perfect flight doesn't fail.

Pathfinder REALLY did a number on itself for only half-copying 3.5's flight rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 04, 2017, 02:00:50 pm

Quote from: wierd on April 04, 2017, 01:42:52 pm

Oh, hai giant flying genie! Your desc says you weigh almost a ton, yet you magic-fly so high my arrows can't reach? I use the the equal of a flashbang to stun you at range, (with a lucky/loaded roll), which paralizes you momentarily. Guess what now? You fall down, go boomboom, cause magic flight works the way it does! (Trollface)

I do have to wonder if the same applies to psionic flight. Kind of the whole point of psionics is that you don't need somatic or verbal components, right? Just keep yourself afloat with the power of your mind (in which case I guess if you're stunned you fall, whereas if you're paralyzed you do not, opposite for flight by propulsion?).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 04, 2017, 02:01:36 pm

I think only rule sticklers would follow such stupid RAW for that, Wierd.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 02:04:13 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on April 04, 2017, 02:00:50 pm

Quote from: wierd on April 04, 2017, 01:42:52 pm

Oh, hai giant flying genie! Your desc says you weigh almost a ton, yet you magic-fly so high my arrows can't reach? I use the the equal of a flashbang to stun you at range, (with a lucky/loaded roll), which paralizes you momentarily. Guess what now? You fall down, go boomboom, cause magic flight works the way it does! (Trollface)

I do have to wonder if the same applies to psionic flight. Kind of the whole point of psionics is that you don't need somatic or verbal components, right? Just keep yourself afloat with the power of your mind (in which case I guess if you're stunned you fall, whereas if you're paralyzed you do not, opposite for flight by propulsion?).

No a lot of Psionics have somatic and verbal.

Look at the Force.

Psionic's thing (in 3.5... The Pathfinder rules are unofficial... Quasi-official... Unsupported, made by a third party, and made to be balanced within itself but not with the Paizo rulesets) is that it uses Power Points instead of Spell slots and spells per day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on April 04, 2017, 02:10:46 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on April 04, 2017, 02:01:36 pm

I think only rule sticklers would follow such stupid RAW for that, Wierd.

I do believe I was pointing out how dumb the rule as written was, yes. That it clearly has some serious baggage, just for the sake of preventing a player from making a save if flying and paralyzed. (Heavy sarcasm)

If it applies to PCs that way, it should apply to NPCs and monsters too, or it is a broken mechanic.

That means genie fall down go boomboom.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 04, 2017, 02:19:20 pm

Bizarrely, a lot of psionics apparently produces an odor...  Listed along somatic/verbal components displays... 

Actually the whole section is weirder than I remembered:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display
Basically there are some "default" displays of the various types, and the displays don't exactly match up with real magic components.  Stuff like targets being briefly covered in shiny "ectoplasmic seepage", or a rainbow-flash of light bursting from the caster's manifester's eyes.

Apparently they can simply make a DC 15+level concentration check to prevent any display at all.  Completely free, they even cast manifest defensively at the same time - just a second check.

So basically yeah, decent manifesters can do stuff without any components pretty easily.  In fact I don't think they ever gesture or speak...  The audible display is a "brass hum", different from verbal components.  There could be some exception in the list though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on April 04, 2017, 03:23:28 pm

Autarch is doing a Heroic Fantasy & Barbarian Conquerors Collection Kickstarter for ACKS (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/heroic-fantasy-and-barbarian-conquerors-collection?ref=autarchweb). Considering how good ACKS is for 1st Edition D&D shenanigans, how good Autarch is at delivering and how great the idea is (basically Conan the RPG not tied to any setting), I really recommend it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on April 04, 2017, 04:55:10 pm

Quote from: wierd on April 04, 2017, 08:24:15 am

-snip-

This could make a really good Apocalypse World or Dungeon World playbook (basically Powered by the Apocalypse-type games' version of classes). My first thought is that you could base the design somewhat on Apocalypse World's (http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorldBasicRefbook2ndEd.pdf) Chopper, so like building your own gang you have the option to choose a couple options for your summon, and one of them would be a loyal parent+child relationship, which would work like making your gang well-disciplined (which makes it so you don't have to roll to control them, if I remember correctly), or you can instead skip that option to instead invest more points in its fighting ability, at the cost of it being potentially dangerous to you. And, if later you want to become loyal to you, you can use an upgrade to take that option.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 05:55:00 pm

You know what I am going to take the plunge and actually TRY to design a setting (or pieces of a setting) based entirely off African history and African nations... HOPEFULLY ignoring the whole White Slavery thing MOSTLY (mostly because... that is so cliché that not doing it actually gives you originality points)

Africa is so fascinating and yet I learned almost NOTHING about it other than "White people enslaved Africans here be" (Though... a group of people who start and end as victims with little-no other defining features is typical school history affair... Like Women's history!)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:22:39 pm

Africans enslaved each other too, for millennia.  Whites are not the only source of the problem.

Also, I am going to point at addendum 3 to the rules and call this topic 'Not Okay' for this thread, racism and all of it's many convoluted subjects belong in a different discussion thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 04, 2017, 06:26:16 pm

the focus of his post was the setting, though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:27:51 pm

I'm only addressing the slavery part, as that has the highest potential of turning into a shitstorm.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 06:30:15 pm

Yeah the whole "racism" aside was more about how in trying to be sensitive to their plight we also kind of forgot to really characterize or demonstrate their culture or achievements in any meaningful way... all the more reason why such a setting would be fascinating.

Also yes! Africans did enslave each other! and interesting enough this is typical tribal behavior in some places.

Though it should be said that the African and Tribal form of enslavement is markedly different. In that a "slave" has all rights and privileges a lot of the time. As well as the form in which it took place.

So yes, my goal in this African setting wouldn't be to make sickeningly perfect African countries (I am not making freeken Wakanda... the most self-unaware fictional country ever!) but to try to adapt them to a fantasy setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:33:11 pm

One of the big things about any kind of 'fantasy' Africa, is the low population density tends to prevent the formation of large political entities (yes, there have been large entities in Africa's past, but most of them failed rather quickly.)  This would probably make it difficult to define anything other than generalized 'cultural regions'.  It also makes 'higher learning' and 'developed industry' extremely rare, Dark Sun might have some useful pointers for you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 04, 2017, 06:43:49 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 05:55:00 pm

You know what I am going to take the plunge and actually TRY to design a setting (or pieces of a setting) based entirely off African history and African nations... HOPEFULLY ignoring the whole White Slavery thing MOSTLY (mostly because... that is so cliché that not doing it actually gives you originality points)

Africa is so fascinating and yet I learned almost NOTHING about it other than "White people enslaved Africans here be" (Though... a group of people who start and end as victims with little-no other defining features is typical school history affair... Like Women's history!)

Not a lot of the culture that used to be there survived because none of it was written down. A funny thing about, for instance, the Congo region is that the first attestation of it in history is on a marker denoting the purchase of a Pygmy slave, purportedly from the land of the walking spirits, and the gratitude of a pharaoh for the exotic nature of the slave in question.

What doesn't help is that after starting to more intently interfere in native political entities the Europeans proceeded to fuck up the ethnography of the area, which they then fed back to the populace as stereotypes through the school system in the late 19th-early 20th century.

The Kingdom of Kongo is a fun one, being a Bantu kingdom whose kings became Christianized through exposure and trade with the Portuguese (to the point of one prince becoming the first black bishop in the Catholic Church before tragically succumbing to illness).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 04, 2017, 06:47:24 pm

Hey guys, if you had, theoretically, a 3-level racial class with full BAB that ends up with the ability to shape into a size large wolf (trip on bite included) with type magical beast, what class would you pick?

I decided to go hunter with boon companion. I lose out on BAB but sharing teamwork feats like tandem trip with another thing that can trip means I can mess up some folks pretty bad.

We also have access to Path of War, so a Broken Blade Warder might be another deliciously viable choice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 06:47:58 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:33:11 pm

One of the big things about any kind of 'fantasy' Africa, is the low population density tends to prevent the formation of large political entities (yes, there have been large entities in Africa's past, but most of them failed rather quickly.)  This would probably make it difficult to define anything other than generalized 'cultural regions'.  It also makes 'higher learning' and 'developed industry' extremely rare, Dark Sun might have some useful pointers for you.

Well... some more famous Ancient African civilizations included
-Egypt
-Carthage
-Ghana
-Zulu

And those are just the well known ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 04, 2017, 06:52:27 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on April 04, 2017, 06:47:24 pm

Hey guys, if you had, theoretically, a 3-level racial class with full BAB that ends up with the ability to shape into a size large wolf (trip on bite included) with type magical beast, what class would you pick?

I decided to go hunter with boon companion. I lose out on BAB but sharing teamwork feats like tandem trip with another thing that can trip means I can mess up some folks pretty bad.

We also have access to Path of War, so a Broken Blade Warder might be another deliciously viable choice.

You could also be a monk, that way your natural weapons will eventually end up with all the abilities to overcome damage resistance.  It would probably be the best way you could scale as a large wolf in terms of damage efficiency.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:53:17 pm

Carthage is far more of a Mediterranean civ than an African one, and Zulu was a coalition of tribal peoples, Egypt is an outgrowth of Nubia, which may have been the largest ancient African nation, and I will admit to not actually being up on Ghana's history.

Taking all that into account you still run into the same hurdle, low population density and lack of organized nations leads to 'low-tech' and probably 'low-magic' (not intended as the current fantasy trope, but instead to indicate that magic is unlikely to have a large degree of sophistication, and would probably be dominated by divine spellcasting/shamanism.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 04, 2017, 06:54:26 pm

Yeah, I was worried about that - I was planning on investing in an Amulet of Mighty Fists but hot dang those get expensive. We're also playing in a campaign where some monsters will have dr/+3 and stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on April 04, 2017, 06:55:30 pm

Egypt and Carthage, are more Mediterranean and Mesopotamian then Africa.
If you're going to talk about awesome long lasting African empires. There is Mali Empire. Ethiopia. Well, may not that one. There been lots of countries mostly in the same region called Ethiopia but I am not sure how much continuity exists between them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 04, 2017, 06:59:29 pm

Yeah without getting 'lucky' for very specific magic items monk would be pretty much the only way to do it.  If you knew you were going to get those items, a rogue-wolf, barbarian wolf and hunter/ranger all become pretty reliable.  Keep in mind of course that tripping things with more than two legs becomes incredibly hard to bordering on impossible once you hit mid-late game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on April 04, 2017, 07:08:24 pm

So last session in our Pathfinder Game with the Carrion Crown. We finally went into the basement. Oh, and we got new player, who died in this session. Though the GM deiced to let that slide. So we had five level 3 characters, went up against 8 cr1 skellingtons. And it was nearly a tpk. Our Paladin, our Fighter, and our new fresh out of the box, Druid all down. I got knocked down to just 1hp left. Though myself the lowly rogue manage to take out half of them. And our investigator, mostly stayed out of the fight and failed to heal anyone as he this book that literally removes, or at least, the character things, will literally remove their ability to cast spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 04, 2017, 07:12:52 pm

Re: Giant wolf dude; I might look into Totemist for some number of levels, they can get a lot of natural attacks (including a ranged option I think) that will gain benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists and also probably stack with your wolf natural attacks, and soul melds will probably play nicer with shapeshifting then most magic items unless your gm is making druid clasps rain. They are also (in my opinion at least) a pretty cool class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 07:17:17 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on April 04, 2017, 06:55:30 pm

Egypt and Carthage, are more Mediterranean and Mesopotamian then Africa.
If you're going to talk about awesome long lasting African empires. There is Mali Empire. Ethiopia. Well, may not that one. There been lots of countries mostly in the same region called Ethiopia but I am not sure how much continuity exists between them.

Egypt is firmly on the African Continent so I am counting it.

It isn't like people discount Turkey as part of Europe because it is part of the middle eastern sphere of influence.

Any division is usually arbitrary anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 04, 2017, 07:52:12 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:53:17 pm

Carthage is far more of a Mediterranean civ than an African one, and Zulu was a coalition of tribal peoples, Egypt is an outgrowth of Nubia, which may have been the largest ancient African nation, and I will admit to not actually being up on Ghana's history.

Taking all that into account you still run into the same hurdle, low population density and lack of organized nations leads to 'low-tech' and probably 'low-magic' (not intended as the current fantasy trope, but instead to indicate that magic is unlikely to have a large degree of sophistication, and would probably be dominated by divine spellcasting/shamanism.)

The Zulu are several tribes conquered by Shaka. That's like saying Greece isn't Greece because Athens and Sparta are two different peoples, even though Alexander conquered them and unified them

Unless you count it under Rome or Greece's rule (because if I recall, Alexander also comquered Egypt), I agree the biggest African nation was Egypt

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 07:55:50 pm

It depends on the period of time... Some African Nations rose to serious prominence at specific periods of time. Sometimes even being a World Power when Egypt wasn't.

Egypt's main impressiveness is it has remained a civilization in Africa from pretty much as long as civilization has been a thing with only a few civilizations hinting at being even older.

It has an impressive lasting power.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:53:17 pm

Taking all that into account you still run into the same hurdle, low population density and lack of organized nations leads to 'low-tech' and probably 'low-magic' (not intended as the current fantasy trope, but instead to indicate that magic is unlikely to have a large degree of sophistication, and would probably be dominated by divine spellcasting/shamanism.)

Not really a problem... Though there was an African Civilization that discovered Iron working long before anyone else. Is there anything wrong with small towns that aren't intricate masonry?

As well several of them actually had things like... an education system, schools, libraries, irrigation, their own reading and writing systems...

I am starting to think that the idea of Africa is "Cave Man" with like... Egypt being like... the crucible of African civilization... a sort of oasis of technology amidst a desert of poop shacks.

Plus fudging a few details isn't an issue. If I wanted to outright copy Africa... I'd just make it Africa. I still want it to be more than "Based on" though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 08:10:20 pm

Oldest know ruins of a city are in South America and are over twenty thousand years old, so while Egypt has some serious clout as an ancient civ, it isn't even close to being THE oldest.  Hell Nubia is closer, with some data indicating it being upwards of fifteen thousand years old.

My point about the lack of large actors is that it creates a substantial power imbalance, with a few nations that are well developed and technologically/magically more advanced that their neighbors by a tremendous amount.  It isn't a inherently bad thing, just something that would have serious impact on the setting.  It was more of a 'players from outside of the big nations are going to be disadvantaged compared to those from within' than any kind of criticism.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 08:11:45 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 08:10:20 pm

Oldest know ruins of a city are in South America and are over twenty thousand years old, so while Egypt has some serious clout as an ancient civ, it isn't even close to being THE oldest.  Hell Nubia is closer, with some data indicating it being upwards of fifteen thousand years old.

To my knowledge they found some evidence that SUGGESTS Egypt may have been around for far longer then it indicates. Though... This evidence isn't the remains of a city.

Though I thought Scara Brae or whatever was the oldest known city.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 08:16:18 pm

Most of the evidence for Egypt being older than current data indicates is from Nubia, which many anthropologists and historians believe to have given rise to Egypt in the first place.  And the ancient city in South America is pretty impressive, they have actual structures, along with pottery and other artifacts that definitely date to greater than twenty thousand years of age.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on April 04, 2017, 08:28:56 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 05:55:00 pm

You know what I am going to take the plunge and actually TRY to design a setting (or pieces of a setting) based entirely off African history and African nations... HOPEFULLY ignoring the whole White Slavery thing MOSTLY (mostly because... that is so cliché that not doing it actually gives you originality points)

Africa is so fascinating and yet I learned almost NOTHING about it other than "White people enslaved Africans here be" (Though... a group of people who start and end as victims with little-no other defining features is typical school history affair... Like Women's history!)

I kind of wonder if Spears of the Dawn is close to what you're going for. Though even if it is (I haven't read it myself), your idea is still worthwhile, since there is a dearth of good African-themed fantasy settings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 04, 2017, 10:47:43 pm

Depends. The Pathfinder Osirion (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Osirion) nation is a very Egypt themed setting. There's also the Mwangi Expanse (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Mwangi_Expanse), an African jungle themed area. There's plenty of adventures set in these settings too. Does that count as African-themed?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 05, 2017, 12:11:31 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 25, 2017, 12:03:50 am

Incidentally, I love the power glove.  It's so bad.

Meanwhile a special someone drove up to the security gate.  He passed a special RFID card to our Decker (still working the gate).  She had him wait while we [figured out the decking rules] copied the data off, then gave it back.  Mission technically accomplished.

Much laughs and such were had over a job well done.  Until someone drove up to the gatehouse with a note, which I received (I took hir place).

The game had changed.

The previous Johnson was a dumbass.

The note explained that we actually needed to *take* the datacard...  and also, replace the owner.  AKA... disappear him, and *become* him.  It also said the previous Johnson was fired.
Sounds like a blatant ploy, right?  We thought so.  We called Mr Johnson.
"Hey, how's the mission going"
blah blah blah, "Also you're apparently fired?"
"Really?  ...Huh, I am!  *click*"
If this was a ploy, it was good enough to justifiably play along.

Anyway, problem solving time:
Target is in a tall corp building.  We're on hire, but only to hang out outside.  We actually don't know what floor he's on, or even his job.

Decker took care of that.  Fairly public knowledge, even what floor he'd work on.
For further reconnaissance, our rigger (offsite drone-operator) sent "trashbot" (a walking cylinder vaguely resembling a smart trash can, but actually a skilled medic).
Guy's floor has like 5 other people.  Most of the area is a Japanese Garden in the MGS:R sense.  We didn't know at the time, but the actors had real katanas.

So... how the hell do we disappear someone with 5 witnesses?  Considering we have to plausibly impersonate that person later, IE people need to think he's alive!  We are "veteran" (default) shadowrunners, but still...

We come up with a plan, of course.  It goes from "trigger the fire alarm on every other floor" to "trigger it on that floor".
And as it happens, we have a canister full of CS gas in our van.
Were you waiting for shit to get horrible?  Here's our plan:

Trashbot will enter the elevator.
Decker activates the fire alarm on that floor only.
Everyone files into the elevator (no stairs) which contains trashbot.
Trashbot releases CS gas hidden in his "bin" cavity.
BLACKGUARD pattern (custom) battlebots file in the front door from our van, parked right next to the entrance for stealth.
When trashbot reports all targets have been rendered unconscious from horrid stun damage, we open the elevator.
BLACKGUARDs pull people out as fast as possible, load into van.
...
Profit?

So here's what actually happened:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Basically, no hitches.
There was a cleaning lady, but I tazered her into unconsciousness and she joined the pile.
As we sped off, we decided to use the pile of basement-grade novacoke we took from trolls' car.  We left the survivors in various alleys, probably waking up just in time to feel the crash of the drugs.  Whatever they remembered would be highly suspect.
The target didn't survive, which was kinda a shame for us.  We were one bot short.  I would have liked to interrogate him, but I will make do.
See, my character is a master of disguise (constantly pretending to be an elf, major character trait) and even has a supernatural adept power to perfectly imitate voices.
My costume-crafting is kinda shitty, but I spent several days to produce a decent (rating 3) one.  I think this'll work.

One thing I said, paraphrased:  "Be sure to record their screams.  I'll need to study them." (To fake call in sick)

Of course, the next mission was *way* grislier, but more of a shootout.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on April 05, 2017, 01:24:04 am

Overly dramatic, leaves too many questions unanswered, will trigger an investigation into who caused the fire alarm to be tripped by building security/HR, etc.

Better plan:  With only 5 people on the floor, the odds of them all being in the bathroom at the same time are negligable, except during breaktime.  Slip him a diuretic in his coffee. This will make him "really need to pee", and head outside of normal break times. When in the bathroom, perform the replacement. Needs assistant posing as a janitor. Sneak unconscious body out of the building in the janitor's trash bin.

Easy peasy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shub-Nullgurath on April 05, 2017, 01:31:52 am

Autarch are doing the Heroic Fantasy & Barbarian Conquerors Collection: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/heroic-fantasy-and-barbarian-conquerors-collection/description

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/015/837/147/f264cbbef048b9f70317cec564475076_original.jpg?w=1024&h=576&fit=fill&bg=000000&v=1489340683&auto=format&q=92&s=e3c2e26ceaa05ca72c134828df29e98f)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 05, 2017, 01:34:34 am

Quote from: wierd on April 05, 2017, 01:24:04 am

What fire alarm?  ;)  Our Decker (despite some failings) did manage control of those records, and cameras, digital-wise.
As for the people...  After the shitty coke we stuffed in them, even they won't believe their stories.

Your plan is pretty good, to be fair.  The only problem is that three assistants were waiting in the lobby (next to the bathroom which technically wasn't mapped, but would have been added).  They would have seen the director walk in, the janitor walk in, and the janitor walk out with a large "trashbot" (best container we had on site).

Better to subject them to a nightmarish experience, then drug them to all fuck.  Hey- that's showbiz, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 05, 2017, 01:45:42 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:33:11 pm

One of the big things about any kind of 'fantasy' Africa, is the low population density tends to prevent the formation of large political entities (yes, there have been large entities in Africa's past, but most of them failed rather quickly.)  This would probably make it difficult to define anything other than generalized 'cultural regions'.  It also makes 'higher learning' and 'developed industry' extremely rare, Dark Sun might have some useful pointers for you.

Axum stood from the 2nd century until the tenth; after about three centuries of kerfuffling, the Solomonic dynasty ruled the Ethiopian Empire until the Cold War era. It was considered a major power on a level with Rome, Persia, and Carthage in the classical era.
The Ghana Empire stood from the 5th to the 13th.
The Mali Empire only stood from the 13th to the 17th or so, but it produced some significant architectural wonders and the Timbuktu University, a major centre of learning for centuries. Mansa Musa is a pretty well-known figure as a result of his diplomatic ties to nations all over the world.

African history is a fascinating subject that far too many people ignore completely or have only misinformation on.

Quote from: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 06:47:58 pm

-Zulu

The Zulu Kingdom was hardly ancient. Shaka, the founder, was born in 1787. The kingdom was more-or-less fully formed in terms of territory by about 1825. Then colonisation happened, of course.

Note that Sub-Saharan Africa is practically a different continent to North Africa because of the difficulty in crossing the Sahara, IIRC. I don't think any major empires formed in that region, not on a level with something like Mali. There's stuff like the Great Zimbabwe ruins, but I don't think very much is known of their precise history.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on April 05, 2017, 01:49:39 am

You misunderstood the plan.

The accomplice is the janitor.  The janitor smuggles people in, and out of the bathroom. He is how your replacement enters the bathroom, and how you get the body out again.

The replacement is in the janitor's trash bin, fully dressed for success, and ready to replace the mark.  He exits the bin once inside the bathroom, and hides inside one of the stalls. The janitor stays in the bathroom, doing janitor things. This is a transparent/invisible activity in an office building.

The mark enters the bathroom, and goes to the urinal. The replacement gets him from behind with something like chloroform. Once the mark is unconscious, the janitor puts him into the trash bag, covers him up with some wadded up paper towels, and waltzes out of the bathroom. The replacement washes his hands, straightens his tie, whatever-- then goes to the desk.

The men outside suspect nothing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 05, 2017, 01:56:09 am

That's the thing:  We had to do this on-site, the plan changed mid-job.  My character's a master of disguise, but obviously (supposedly) an elf.  Target's a human.  No time to fabricate a disguise (as I've done now).

We had a bot that could hold a body, but it would have caused so many questions if the guy just disappeared.  And while 3 people were in the outer area, like 2 people were in the inner area with him.  And they would have been missed.

No...  To properly replace this person would have meant either tailing him home (still risky) or discrediting all the unavoidable witnesses.

Edit:  And taking off my elf-ear prosthetics would have been... unfortunate, in that the actual elf in the party (the Decker, other person on-site) is very loudly anti-poser.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 05, 2017, 02:05:52 am

Oh shoot I was unclear about the time period involved.

We needed to disappear him now, and have nobody suspect for *days*, then impersonate him.
We were well paid, but yeah it was a job for extreme subtlety as I understand it.

We've had an unrelated mission since, and might have another tomorrow, almost a week in game where we have to make like he's alive and well...  Then impersonate him for some undisclosed purpose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on April 05, 2017, 02:40:03 am

Having worked at a fortune 500, I can tell you straight up. If you need to pee, you just get up to pee. Your co-workers will think nothing of it.  If you take awhile, they will think you just needed to drop a duce instead, and still say nothing.

The people outside the bathroom will be busy talking to each other, or doing whatever they are doing. They are not going to be too concerned about the bathroom, because bathroom things like pooping goes on in there.  That is why you use a silent method of taking out the mark, like chloroform. He gasps, and that's it.  If the janitor is noisily doing janitor things, they will hear nothing.

The need to include trashbot is artificial; the janitor has access to the janitorial closet, which has the really big trash cart in it. Pushing it around is part of his job when he cleans. (confession, my best friend is a janitor, so I know all about what janitor's have access to. If you want a guy to leave doors unlocked for you after hours in an inconspicuous way, janitor is your man. He has keys to every room, out of necessity. He gets monitored because of office paranoia, but he can conveniently "forget" to re-lock a door after cleaning.) The trashcart can EASILY hide a body.

Spoiler: janitorial trashcart example (click to show/hide)

(https://www.janilink.com/img/p/M/44GalTrashBarrel_1001.jpg)

You said you knocked down the cleaning lady in your raid-- she would have been perfect, as she has access to the janitorial closet (has the keys, it is always locked). You don't need the regular cleaning person; Fortune 500s replace janitorial people like they were toilet paper. It can be a different one every day of the week, and nobody will notice-- they tend to staff using a staffing service, and this very thing happens frequently. You just need to look like a janitor, which is easy enough to do.

But meh. Water under the bridge now. :P

Just keep janitor man in mind if you need covert access to offices after hours. He really is your man.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 05, 2017, 03:40:38 am

Neo, I suggest looking into Timbuktu (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu), Great Zimbabwe (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe), Zanzibar, Mombasa and the rest of the eastern/Swahili Coast cities and their role in the Indian Ocean trade (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_trade) if you want inspiration for urban hubs outside North Africa. I can't recommend any books on the topic from memory, but such definitely do exist.

It probably doesn't need to be said that Africa is huge, encompassing a lot of environments, ways of life and cultures, some nomadic, some sedentary, some both. And a lot of wilderness - all these things make it pretty perfect for a DnD-ish setting. You've also got incredibly varied religion and myths to draw on.

Misconceptions about African history are everywhere. I can't personally vouch for the answers in this thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/11k5f4/why_did_all_of_the_other_continents_develop_so/), but AskHistorians is generally fairly reliable and always has book and source recommendations for you to seek out yourself. Just checking into a (good, probably an university's) library will probably yield a whole bunch of African History books. Just don't pick ones written in, like, 1900.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on April 05, 2017, 05:25:11 am

Quote from: Arx on April 05, 2017, 01:45:42 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 04, 2017, 06:33:11 pm

One of the big things about any kind of 'fantasy' Africa, is the low population density tends to prevent the formation of large political entities (yes, there have been large entities in Africa's past, but most of them failed rather quickly.)  This would probably make it difficult to define anything other than generalized 'cultural regions'.  It also makes 'higher learning' and 'developed industry' extremely rare, Dark Sun might have some useful pointers for you.

Axum stood from the 2nd century until the tenth; after about three centuries of kerfuffling, the Solomonic dynasty ruled the Ethiopian Empire until the Cold War era. It was considered a major power on a level with Rome, Persia, and Carthage in the classical era.
The Ghana Empire stood from the 5th to the 13th.
The Mali Empire only stood from the 13th to the 17th or so, but it produced some significant architectural wonders and the Timbuktu University, a major centre of learning for centuries. Mansa Musa is a pretty well-known figure as a result of his diplomatic ties to nations all over the world.

African history is a fascinating subject that far too many people ignore completely or have only misinformation on.

Quote from: Neonivek on April 04, 2017, 06:47:58 pm

-Zulu

The Zulu Kingdom was hardly ancient. Shaka, the founder, was born in 1787. The kingdom was more-or-less fully formed in terms of territory by about 1825. Then colonisation happened, of course.

Note that Sub-Saharan Africa is practically a different continent to North Africa because of the difficulty in crossing the Sahara, IIRC. I don't think any major empires formed in that region, not on a level with something like Mali. There's stuff like the Great Zimbabwe ruins, but I don't think very much is known of their precise history.

But both Mali and Ethiopia is sub-Saharan though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 05, 2017, 06:00:14 am

Aksum was sited more in modern-day Eritrea and Sudan than in modern Ethiopia, and the extent of the Sahara wasn't as great. Mali was more-or-less in the modern Sahara AFAIK, which makes it a bit confusing. :P

I think this map is alright, though, and you'll note the dearth of Sub-Saharan polities. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 05, 2017, 06:01:28 am

Poisonous Zanzibar Hamsters??

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 05, 2017, 08:01:57 am

Zanzibar, home of the Zanzibarbarians.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 05, 2017, 09:50:46 am

Well, I'm now rolling up a Warpriest of Sarenrae (Healing, Sun) (A Dawnflower Cultist, not mainstream), and I must say it's testing me sorely. Sorely.

...

\[T]/

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 05, 2017, 10:08:46 am

Is it just me or is the warpriest just a strictly worse cleric? I mean, they get a d8 HD and a medium BAB, a soulknife mechanic and a variation on turn undead? Am I missing something?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 05, 2017, 10:14:44 am

They also get any Fighter feats they want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 05, 2017, 10:40:59 am

I'm playing a halfling jester bard in an upcoming 2nd ed AD&D planescape game.

I need standup material.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 05, 2017, 10:43:27 am

Do height jokes. Lots of them. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 05, 2017, 10:53:58 am

Start every joke with an exclamatory "marry", append "nuncle" as appropriate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 05, 2017, 11:50:13 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on April 05, 2017, 10:08:46 am

Is it just me or is the warpriest just a strictly worse cleric? I mean, they get a d8 HD and a medium BAB, a soulknife mechanic and a variation on turn undead? Am I missing something?

Heavy armour proficiency, blessings (Blind my opponent for a round? Empower my heals? Sign me up!), the ability to heal 1d6 as a swift action at second level (or a standard action to heal another), bonus feats, and Weapon Focus for free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 05, 2017, 11:52:37 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on April 05, 2017, 10:08:46 am

Is it just me or is the warpriest just a strictly worse cleric? I mean, they get a d8 HD and a medium BAB, a soulknife mechanic and a variation on turn undead? Am I missing something?

They have some really amusing combos since their weapons do damage based off of their class and not the weapon itself.  For example if you had a whip with lunge and whirlwind attacks as your feats.  You suddenly get the ability to do an attack against every enemy around you in a 20 foot radius assuming you are a medium sized creature that does substantial damage despite being a whip since it's using sacred damage (Plus whatever enhancements you throw on top.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 05, 2017, 11:58:58 am

Unfortunately, a 1d8 weapon does the same damage until Level 10.

_{normally this wouldn't be that big of a deal, but in a P6 campaign, which I'm making a Warpriest for...}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 05, 2017, 12:01:47 pm

You do get sacred weapon at level 4, and another stack of it at level 8 though.  So swift action +1/weapon enhancement of your choice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 05, 2017, 12:07:37 pm

Actually, it increases the bonus of Sacred Weapon's weapon enhancement by +1, up to +5 at Level 20. _{and technically you get SW at Level 1, you just get the enhancement part at level 4}

And again, I'm doing a P6 campaign, meaning no Level 8 for me. With P6's rules on Epic, Signature and Ritual stuff that normally wouldn't be a problem, but Warpriests aren't even included in the P6 rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 08, 2017, 08:40:17 pm

Played a Pathfinder Society scenario this week, and it was nasty.

Seriously, who thinks three ghouls with 3 attacks each and a paralysis save on each one is a balanced encounter for four level 1 characters?

We lost the rogue in round two whilst my barbarian, the bard and the cleric beat a hasty retreat up the stairs on the ship. My guard dog bought us a few rounds to prepare, getting swarmed and actually landing a hit one one of the ghouls before it got torn to shreds. I perched myself at the top of the stairs, raged and popped a potion of Enlarge Person. First ghoul comes up, slice through it with an attack of opportunity due to my 10 ft. reach. Second ghoul comes up, I use my readied action to cut it in half in one strike. Third ghoul comes up, and I'm all out of actions. Bam, get hit with a claw and boom, paralysed for 3 rounds with a 3 on my d20 roll against the Fort save.

So I'm screwed now, but there's a glimmer of hope. I'm paralysed and helpless, meaning my allies can enter my square! The bard heroically faces off against the ghoul with his shortsword, hitting it for all of 1d4-2 damage. The ghoul misses twice with its claws during its turn, but manages to hit with a bite attack, paralysing the bard too.

Without any other options, the cleric goes for a channel energy to deal positive damage to the ghoul. A massive 1d6 damage with a DC 13 Will save for half. Rolls a 4 for damage, and the ghoul needs a 5 or better on their roll to save against the channel. It rolls... a 2.

Between my guard dog's attack, the bard's attack and the channel, it's exactly enough to destroy the final ghoul. We complete the mission with only one PC death.

Honestly, that fight was brutal. Way too much chance for a TPK at that level. The Pathfinder Society rules allow it to be run by level 1 or 2 characters, and I think you really need one or two level 2 players for that last fight to not be a bloodbath.

The other fights in the scenario were pretty well balanced. The NPC enemy that tries to escape by drinking a potion of Invisibility was a good twist, but luckily my character was carrying a good old bag of flour. The enemy 5 ft. steps away, drinks his potion and disappears, I pull out my bag of flour and antique (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=antiqueing) that bitch.

My favourite quote of the night: "I'm gonna put you in the ground and see if I can grow a dumb-ass tree!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on April 09, 2017, 04:53:48 pm

In my Carrion of the Crown game, we manage to defeat our first Haunt. One of the five evil ghosts at the Prison. My character was holding the Flute, and we faced off against the Pied Piper character. I think I did the least amount of damage. The Oracle, the Druid and the Cleric, I think did the bulk of the damage with positive energy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 09, 2017, 08:07:46 pm

Party fought a colossus and won because it fumbled a DC10 dex save to dodge stalagmites.

Party is estatic... Until they realize they have an army of Duregar to fight through

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 09, 2017, 09:36:53 pm

Almost TPK'd last session. A few of us managed to run away, but we lost two players and an NPC. I'm making a back-up character just in case. There's a few ways to ease the battle, but they're a bit out there. We got a few of them done, but only the obvious ones, like killing certain characters rather than letting them flee when they start losing the fights that include them.

One involves going out of the way to kill an NPC for what seems to be no real reason at the time. Though doing that will mean you don't get the NPC ally.

Two involve convincing a character that's attacking you earlier in the story to instead work for you.

One requires you to wait. They have fewer numbers if you wait for them to come to you, rather than for you to go to them.

Hell's Vengeance Book One Spoilers:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Basically any named NPC and a number of unnamed NPCs that survive previous encounters all reappear for the last fight of the book. By my count, that's two level 3 Bards, a level 3 Cleric, a were-boar, a fourth level Ranger, a Manticore, and at least four NPC class numpties we managed to avoid.

What we were up against was a level 3 Cleric, a level 5 Cleric, a level 5 Paladin, a Hound Archon, two Blink dogs, two unnamed NPCs that weren't involved in any previous encounter, and an Advanced Dryad with a few levels of Swashbuckler. Because fuck the party, apparently.

Your party is level 3 at this point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on April 10, 2017, 02:28:38 pm

So far the Warpriest option is panning out pretty well, if only because I think I'm packing about the same amount of healing as an ordinary cleric plus various Warpriest pluses/quirks. Like being able to heal the Oracle for 1d12+3 after she ate the same combo as killed my last character. :P

I'm also having far too much fun RPing an undead/religion-savvy newcomer to the party.

The Oracle summons her halo, which is the party's main light source.

"Wait, you're an angelkin. Yet the person that died wasn't you or the tiefling?"

---

The Oracle hands around some access cards the party looted earlier. Everyone else knows what they are and just takes one.

"What in the name of the Dawnflower is this?"

"It's, well, a key of sorts."

"So I just stick it in the keyhole and turn?"

"Not quite like that."

---

The tiefling Alchemist chugs a potion and then hurks a massive glob of tarry mucus at a zombie to immobilise it.

"...eugh."

---

We encounter some of the remains of the skeletons killed by the party earlier. Examination with my undead hunter skills reveal that there's something more than being ripped apart keeping them down.

"What rites did you perform to return these to their rest?"

"...rites? Mostly we cut them apart."
"Kaela did use one of their femurs as a bludgeon."

"I see. Well, I don't, but no matter."

---

The tiefling is complaining.

"I don't know why people don't seem to like me."

"You're a tiefling with three arms."

---

Unfortunately, we didn't spend enough time hanging out with the friendly neighbourhood Skulks for me to start proselytising, but it was close.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 10, 2017, 05:21:18 pm

Go unto the heathens and preach the good word, brother! Or, y'know, murder them and take their stuff. Either way's cool by most deities, I think.

Glad you're having fun with the class!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on April 11, 2017, 12:09:15 pm

Ah, divine touch is the best touch.

If you spend two feats doing it, and can find the right deity, you can run a wizard the with ability to do spontaneously healing from level 1.

Had fun with this in a lvl 1 campaign that didn't have a cleric. My character worshipped Pelor, but was part of a splinter group of essentially communist beliefs. She began every conversation with 'Have you heard the good word of Tephos?', took ranks in calligraphy so she could make her own pamphlets to distribute to literally everyone who stopped moving for long enough to get a piece of paper pushed on them, railed against the oppression of a society stratified by class divisions and enforced social inequality, and wasn't shy about letting clerics know that they were merely tools of an outdated and archaic system and that the true faithful could forge a divine connection without need of their services.

  She was basically a Jehovah's Witness with healing powers and Wizard's spell list.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: milo christiansen on April 11, 2017, 12:31:18 pm

Enjoy the beginnings of an unfinished project that will probably never become finished...

Feel free to rip anything you like out of this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alignments:
========================================================================================================================

Elements:
* Positive: Energy   Earth  Life   Order
* Negative: Entropy  Void   Death  Chaos

Pure Cycles (interaction via reinforcement):
* Positive: Order <> Energy <> Earth <> Life <> Order
* Negative: Chaos <> Entropy <> Void <> Death <> Chaos

Wave Cycles (interaction via conflict):
* Order <> Entropy <> Earth <> Death <> Order
* Chaos <> Energy <> Void <> Life <> Chaos

Both kinds of cycle hold a sort-of dynamic tension that creates each distinct elemental aspect. For example possibility
of life is created by conflict between void and chaos and supported/created by interaction of earth and order.

Each direction is associated with a particular set of elements, based on which of the Pillars makes its home in
that segment of the world.

         N
         #
        ###
       # # #
    W ####### E
       # # #
        ###
         #
         S

* N: Life, Entropy
* E: Earth, Chaos
* S: Energy, Death
* W: Order, Void

Each elemental creature has an alignment, one of positive, positive neutral, pure neutral, negative neutral, or negative.

No creature can hold equal power in two elements, as they would interfere with each other and cancel. Two elements
adjacent to each other in a pure cycle may be held by the same creature, but one is always weaker. A creature with two
elements held this way is said to have a split alignment. Creatures with a split alignment have their primary element
weaker than normal, and the supporting element's adjacent element does not express itself (it is suppressed by the
primary element). Split alignments are generally a result of a creature that has taken service with the Pillar with
dominion over one of its minor elements (which has since become one of its major elements). Split alignments are very rare.

Positive or negative aligned creatures gain their power from pure cycle reinforcement. A negative creature with a west
aspect would have strong power over the void, with some minor ability in entropy and death.

Positive and negative neutral creatures receive power based on wave cycle interactions rather than pure cycle
interaction. For example a positive neutral creature with a strong north aspect would be life aligned, with minor
power over chaos and the void. A south-west (south major) negative neutral would have moderate death, minor void,
trivial energy, and trivial order powers (its theoretical minor powers over earth and life are canceled by its
major powers).

The only pure neutral alignment creatures are the Pillars, so for most purposes this alignment is meaningless.
Basically a pure neutral creature has dominion over an element and the negative of its opposite element. In addition to
the elements that it has dominion over, a pure neutral has power of some degree in all aspects of all elements. This
means the the South Pillar has dominion over energy and death, as well as the ability to use all the others. Since the
Pillars are so powerful, there is no point trying to rate their power in each element, except to say that their secondaries
are far weaker than their primaries, although their secondaries are still many times more powerful than the primaries of
all but the strongest of their subordinates.


The Pillars of Creation:
========================================================================================================================

The Pillars of Creation are four powerful pure neutral elemental creatures that are said to have created the world and
the many kinds of lesser elementals as an exercise in preventing boredom. Like it or not, every living being in the world
of the elements is a pawn of one (or more) of the Pillars.

The Pillars have many forms, and they often change them on a whim. Thus they are impossible to describe, but don't worry
if you see a pillar you will know it! The Pillars practically (and in the case of the South Pillar, sometimes literally)
glow with power. There is no mistaking them for anything else.

Elemental creatures generally serve the Pillar that has dominion over their major element. For example a life elemental
generally serves the North Pillar. Sometimes an elemental serves the Pillar of one of it's minor elements. In this case
it's alignment will slowly (over many years) shift so that its major matches that of its Pillar.

Not all elementals serve the Pillars, some strike out on their own to do as they wish. Generally elementals that forsake
service to the Pillars only *think* they are independent. Minor elementals generally have no real loyalty to the Pillars.
This leads many of them to think they are independent, but in reality the Pillars allow them to roam as a way to induce
some randomness into their game...

The Pillars never work together for any length of time, but they never work at cross purposes for long either. Generally
they "play" for "points", trying to steal each other's followers and gain minor advantages over each other. Sometimes
they allow their followers to war on each other, but never to the point of causing the balance to tip too far in any one
direction.


Numerology:
========================================================================================================================

Numerology in the world of elements is very different from what you may be used to. Numbers such as 3 and 7 are "weak",
whereas 2, 4, and 8 are "strong" (2 alignments, 4 core elements, 8 elemental alignments). Generally things are done in
powers of 2 or multiples of 8, with multiples of 4 also being popular.


Geography:
========================================================================================================================

The world of the elements is a flat, circular mass of land suspended in an infinite void. None but the Pillars know if
other planes exist in this void, and they certainly aren't telling their playthings.

The center of this landmass is more-or-less "normal", but the farther you go in any direction the less normal things
become.

The following region descriptions are very preliminary!


North (Life, Entropy):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The north is filled with jungles and swamps. Living in this region is a constant battle between civilization and nature.
Roads can become overgrown in mere days if not for constant effort to keep them open. A structure abandoned by its owners
will be gone as if it had never existed in less than a month, torn to tiny pieces by the plants and animals.

The center-north is home to herdsmen, while the edges are mostly used by hunting, wood cutting, and gathering rare plants.


East (Earth, Chaos):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The east is a land of mountains, every kind of mountain you can imagine thrown together in a (if you will pardon the term)
very "chaotic" manner. Storms rage over the the far east, but since this is where the best veins of minerals may be found
there are still some small (mostly underground) communities to be found there.

The center-east (particularly the center-north-east) is taken up with farming communities, while mining makes up most of
the other parts of the region.


South (Energy, Death):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The south is a blasted land of volcanoes, powerful lightning storms, and deadly fauna.

The center-south is not as thickly inhabited as most of the other parts of the center, but some of the most celebrated
mage schools make their home in this area, viewing the danger as but another form of test to prove their ability.
Aside from the mage schools, most other activity in the south revolves around collecting the power of the storms into
special crystals (mined in the far east) for use in the machines of the west and hunting the native creatures for rare
products (valued partly for their quality and partly because of how hard they are to acquire).


West (Order, Void):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The west is a strange and fractured land made of many geometric islands floating in the void. The farther west you go the
rarer and more regular the islands become.

The west is famed for its clockwork cities, vast edifices of machinery which produce finished goods for most of the world.
The cities of the center-west are more normal (albeit quite orderly), but the farther west you go the more ordered the
cities become, to the point where the farthest west city's inhabitants may as well be as regular as the machines they
create.

Trade between the islands is conducted via "void ships" (think zeppelins, but powered by clockwork constructs and magic
instead of gases). These void ships also serve the other regions to some degree, although most that do so travel beyond
the outer edges of the elemental plane.


Death and Life:
========================================================================================================================

Elemental creatures are not strictly mortal, that is they will not age, but they can die. "Killing" an elemental does not
necessarily cause it to die.  When an elemental "dies" what happens next is up to the Pillars. If it was a particularly
interesting piece in their game it will be reborn with its knowledge mostly intact, sometimes with a new physical form.
An elemental that was insufficiently interesting will be remade, retaining almost none of its memories. The memories
that are retained are just enough for the "new" elemental to take its place in the game.

Sometimes an elemental will offend one or more pillars to such an extent that it will be destroyed instead of being
returned or remade. This is a very rare punishment, reserved for those that transgress against multiple Pillars or those
who actively try to ruin the game. When an elemental is destroyed, a new one is created. Such new elementals are generally
special in some way, sometimes very powerful, sometimes a novel new form, but always unique. This special status only
lasts for their first life, after that they are dealt with as any other. It is speculated that this special treatment
is a way to allow these new elementals to get settled into the game, a crutch to make up for their lack of previous
experiences.

When an elemental is to be remade they are allowed some say in how it is done, the more interesting the Pillars found
them, the more say they are allowed. An elemental that lead a boring (to the Pillars) life will simply be stripped of
most memory and returned as something boring (and weak), an elemental that was interesting will be returned with more
memory and with more power. Note that the Pillars notions of "interesting" are generally adjusted for ability, and
"interesting" generally ends up meaning "did something outside the norms". As you may imagine the Pillars are somewhat
capricious and mercurial, which injects a hefty dose of randomness to the whole mess...

An elemental's say in their remaking generally covers their new physical form, new alignment and not much else (AKA
it's an opportunity for players to respec their character). When an elemental is remade they will be placed into the
world at one of five points. Most are placed in the great city in the exact center of the world, but those who are special
to a particular Pillar will be placed in that Pillar's capital in the far reaches of their domain.

For most elementals being remade and reborn is a cataclysmic event to be avoided at all costs, after all there is no
way to be sure what the Pillars may decide. On the other hand few truly fear death. Avoid it, yes. Fear it? not really.
Some intrepid elementals will go into great danger, secure in the knowledge that if they make it the reward will be well
worth it, and if they fail there is a good chance that they will at least be judged "interesting". Such elementals are
often those who rise fastest in the eyes of the Pillars, and sometimes they make up the ranks of those who fall fastest
as well... Such is a risky path, and so it is only followed by the desperate, the crazy, the bored... Adventurers of all
kinds in other words.


Bestiary:
========================================================================================================================

The inhabitants of the elemental plane are a diverse lot, ranging from flesh-and-blood, living crystal, metal, even pure
energy held together by sheer force of will.

Unintelligent "animals" tend to follow basic patterns, with certain types living in certain geographic areas. Each one
that is killed will eventually be replaced by unknown means (they simply appear somewhere in the area when no one is
watching).

TODO: Lists of common "animal" types

All the intelligent elementals are unique. Many follow common patterns, but each one is in some way different from
those with a similar pattern. The only constant feature of all elementals is that their form is appropriate to their
alignment, and it always suits their abilities. An elemental focused on earth is likely golem-like, formed of stone
or metal, while order elementals are often crystalline.

For example a south-west (south major) negative neutral could be a lithe and agile creature made of an almost translucent
gray mist and having the ability to split bits of itself off to use as lock-picks and stilettos. The perfect assassin or
thief in other words. Its death aspect would make it dangerous and deadly, void would make it ephemeral and light (also
hard to see in shadows), energy would lend itself to magics, and order would help it control its manifestations. For
personality, this creature could be mercurial, but likely to kill first and ask questions later. It may also be somewhat
prone to shyness, lurking in the shadows, watching. It would probably have a rigid moral code, although this code may not
align with that of society... Just keep in mind that the stuff of the void is not particularly strong (glass cannon!).

A north positive aligned creature could take the form of a stolid flesh-and-blood humanoid, vigorous and strong. Such a
creature would work well with plants and animals, and could probably make a good healer. Its personality could be upbeat
and cheerful (although there are plenty of other possibilities). Boring? Possibly, but a healer that can tame animals and
make powerful drugs from plants and such (not to mention being second only to a death brute when riled) could be very
interesting in the right hands. Every adventuring party needs a solid healer, and one that is tough enough to double as a
fighter could be invaluable.


North (Life, Entropy):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life creatures are often flesh-and-blood or otherwise organic (plant-like?). Some entropic creatures are made from a flat
black material that drinks in light and energy, others are like twisted life creatures, organic, but poisonous rather than
wholesome.


East (Earth, Chaos):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Earth creatures are often stone or metal, with some crystalline types making rarer appearances. There is only one constant
to chaos creatures, they are utterly random, with some being able to change their shape at will.


South (Energy, Death):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Energy creatures are often just that, pure energy held together by the force of their will. These creatures can often
release bits of themselves as weapons or tools, some can even keep these pieces under conscious control. Death creatures
come in two broad types: Heavily built combatants and lithe assassins. Both types are much in demand as mercenaries,
leading many to travel.


West (Order, Void):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Order creatures are often crystalline or mechanical. Bodies of order creatures are made from many materials, but they
are always very precise, operating with mechanical precision. An order creature seldom leaves anything to chance, but
they have problems dealing with the unexpected. Void creatures are often ephemeral, containing only enough matter to
allow them to interact with others. Some are so "thin" that it is possible to see through them, rendering them like
unto a dark shadow. Some void creatures can fly, and others can squeeze themselves through tight spaces.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Max™ on April 11, 2017, 09:00:45 pm

Regarding the "why is Rifts broken" stuff earlier.

I had a player once who spent a lot of time reading some of the books as well, he hits me with a Temporal Warrior (I think Warrior, might have been Mage, not sure anymore, was from WB3 England) and somehow either I didn't notice it was illegal, or it straight up wasn't, but as it was one of the "you start off older and crazy and scarred but you're also level 5" dudes I didn't think much of it when he picked Apparition.

He had tweaked his attributes and saves and whatnot, we were hunting some Xiticix for someone his master worked with so he ends up over in the US. We're going around gathering the scent glands as I recall, was me in one of the smaller Triax bots that could still have a passenger as transport/gmpc plus him, I tweaked the random table by adding in xiticix in various parts so we came across a battle with I think the big northern gun bot with the railgun on the head and a pack of bugs right?

So I get ready to drop off dude to go magic/snipe around like usual as I run-n-gun through the trees and he says wait, rolls I can't even remember what knowledge check to accurately identify a specific mecha and nails it so he says he should be able to depict it with Apparition, so the northern gun guy looks over to see a spider skull walker come lumbering out of the woods unloading on him with both railguns.

Now, I don't know if it should work inside a bot, but I couldn't see anything against it, and it was clever, so in the middle of us taking out the bugs, he is just wailing away with his unkillable spider skull walker until the NG bot main body mdc/pilot compartment mdc would be way negative and at this point the spell says someone who thinks they've been killed would pass out, so the pilot keels over, bot stops, he goes up and uses one of the short range portal type temporal spells to hop in the cockpit, cap the pilot, and chuck him outside... and I realize he planned this shit.

Selling a nearly totally undamaged bot that was only missing some ammo might be trickier, but you'd be surprised how many spells there are for doing little things like encouraging people to trust you/believe you/go along with your ideas, so long story short he ends up in Atlantis trying to buy rune swords and getting chased by a god-dragon through a portal into Phase World.

Is Rifts broken? Oh absofuckinglutely, I wish I had discovered how much better M&M was long ago.

Is it broken strictly because "gunbunnies and rccs and power armor are godly" and magic/psionics are pointless? Weeeellll, if you only look at the spells which do raw damage (besides like, the antimatter sphere one?) yeah, sure. Is everything better with an RCC on top of it? Pretty much, yeah, but as I recall there wasn't a saving throw against a carpet of adhesion, I'm still not sure if there was any way to bypass mecha-army apparitions besides getting a 19~20 to save, and let's not even touch on the horrors of mystic portal except to say you've seen shit Rick does with his portal gun I'm sure.

Oh, then there's the fun you get when you toss in super powers! What do you call a Hawrk-duhk Imperial Guardsman with Invulnerability and Impervious to Psionics? Annoying as fuck, that's what.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 11, 2017, 10:03:40 pm

Actually, when you really read the rules for spells (spread across around fifteen books), you find out that anything that can be quantified as mind influencing (which becomes problematic as spells aren't nicely codified due to copy-paste) flat out doesn't work of fully-sealed environments, so your player screwed you there.  Apparition is straight up not effective against robot vehicles or PA, except in the ways that illusion is.

The simple fact is that if it isn't a fully sealed suit of environmental armor or vehicle, it is at a tremendous disadvantage against magic/psionics, but when it is sealed, magic becomes completely irrelevant.  That's why PA/RV is godmode, and 'borgs are OP beyond measure, and supernatural beings are right up there with them.

I've been doing this for twenty years +, I've run the math and scenarios, RIFTS is a world where magic, 'the great equilizer', equals getting killed by people with guns.

And yes, super powers get 'fuck you' very, very quickly.  I don't allow them because they are not balanced, due to copy-paste.

Again, this is one of those subjects it is possible to go over forever, because the printed material isn't adequate to play the game without creative interpretation.  Did you know that carpet of adhesion has actual MDC?  Very low MDC?  Which can be broken by hand-held weapons fire?  RIFTS is broken beyond belief.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Max™ on April 11, 2017, 11:42:34 pm

Well, they may have cleared up the rules on robots not being influenced by anything, but unlike lots of other spells the apparition one just said they have to see it. This was before the whole ultimate edition thing existed so unless it was out in one of the really obscure world books like, I dunno, World Book 37: New Jersey is Fucked, that was a definite grey area.

He did later say he went with a Temp Warrior because he was planning on using the short-range portal thing to just pop inside robots after sneaking up with invis and whatnot but then he saw apparition wasn't written like other illusion spells, and yeah CoA has that weirdness, there was also a version which didn't specify it had to be placed on a surface, so it was basically waiting until someone went "ha ha, fucking net of adhesion time" though later I did have the idea of buying up medical skills and whatnot so I could pass off "alveolar walls are a surface" and at least fall back to "let's just glue this over their eyeballs and lips" tricks.

It's weird that the MDC powers are way harder to work with than the HU2/PU1/2/3 versions due to some... questionable conversion choices.

Though I had the problem of never having enough players so I just endlessly spammed character sheets and adventure idea doodles and conceptual villains and all that jazz until I played with the M&M system and was able to satisfyingly do and make things I had always tried to do with HU/2/Rifts and just completely lost any interest in Palladium.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 12, 2017, 04:26:37 am

Yah, like I said, if you don't have every book, you can't even infer what some of the rules are.  Carpet of adhesion was demystified in sourcebook 1, then further clarified in Book of Magic (tho' that clarification was copy-pasted from Federation of Magic), then further clarified in Ultimate.  So that is what you had to go through just to figure out how effective (or in this case non-effective) one single spell is.

Temporal magic of all stripes was smashed with a nerf bat in, gods probably Mystic Russia?, maybe in Spirit West?  Then got trashed again in one of the Three Galaxies sourcebooks.

I've got basically everything up to Triax 2 on the shelves here, and there is still errata I don't have on hand.  That's why you've got to re-write the rules, because this shit is poorly done, and feels more like a research paper than a game sometimes.

So, yes, very easy for players (and GMs) to abuse the hell out of, and broken beyond repair.  Fun fact, due to Ultimate and I think Psyscape?, you can't teleport into sealed bots/vehicles, you'd need phase magic now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Max™ on April 12, 2017, 05:24:50 am

Well, when you mention 20+ years, I thought "well hell that's been a long time" but I dropped a decade in there. None of those clarifications you mentioned existed at the time. I'm sure Federation of Magic wasn't out at the time, pretty sure Japan wasn't even out, so this is a long time ago, like, 94... 95? He ended up in Phase World because it came out while we were playing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 12, 2017, 12:28:38 pm

Yeah, too many books, too many things to keep track of, and new errata and interpretations of things being released all the time.  Siembieda put out the ultimate edition, with completely re-worked PA/RV combat, then broke it to hell with the very next world book.  RIFTS is one of those games I really like the idea of, and can enjoy running, but I hate having to basically build the rules from scratch every time someone wants to play something new.

In other news my campaign fell through a couple months ago due to a variety of issues, and I haven't been able to get something new going, thinking of either doing a forum SG game based on some ideas I had or trying to get my group together for a Splicers (also a Palladium game, but with sane, coherent, rule structure) campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Max™ on April 12, 2017, 08:50:00 pm

Hah, I remember when Splicers came out, but yeah, player didn't get one over one me for two reasons: rules were different, and most importantly: it was clever so I went with it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 12, 2017, 08:59:49 pm

Yeah, sounds like you rolled with it effectively.  Doesn't necessarily mean you should have gone with it in the first place, but that's down to styles, I tend to be pretty harsh about what flies in game.

Splicers tho', that game has got it going on.  Coherent ruleset, well written, it can be broken, but not easily.  It's probably my favorite Palladium product by far, but precious few people play Sci-fi RPGs, and some people are seriously grossed out by the bio-tech stuff.  Too bad, as it really had potential, when Palladium went to Gencon that year they sold completely out of Splicers, and then Siembieda decided to cancel any further development, like that makes some kind of sense.  I even wrote up a bunch of bio-augments for host armor (they're still on Palladium's forum) that got pretty positive responses from the typically insular and negative crowd there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Max™ on April 12, 2017, 09:41:50 pm

Hah, I was once Max™ over there but someone got bitchy and temp-banned me for some shit so I told NMI (who I knew in the pre-deific days) to fuck off and control their dogs better as Palladium is now banned. Can't even see the site these days. My piles of books sit in the attic getting dusty now, and all I know is: Mutants and Masterminds really was the better superhero system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 13, 2017, 06:09:48 pm

I am thinking over my notes and one thing I am stuck on is how to respectfully represent the African nations knowing that I do need to include a flair of fantasy including fantasy races.

Some I can probably take from mythology, so I am going to have to strum up on some African mythology.

I am wondering if my "No Britain! they steal far too much attention from African history to the point where... They ARE African history" should be changed... since they are a good target for turning into a fantasy race or demons or monsters.

Ohh well... I should get started... I think what I should do for now... Is gather the African Civilizations and nations... and write down some bullet points AND some mythology bullet points. I have a bad tendency to stick to concept work too much and keep everything in my head.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 13, 2017, 09:24:29 pm

@milo:  I kinda wanna play that.

Failing that I kinda wanna make a game based on that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 18, 2017, 04:58:20 am

Ran my first real-life, in-person, flesh-and-blood pen-and-paper RPG session a few days ago, start of a Mutants and Masterminds campaign for my friends. It was  a ton of fun - we ended up playing for almost ten hours because no-one felt any need to stop. The basic gist of the story was: star professor of an MIT-knockoff university has been manipulating his star pupils and using them for a string of crimes, proper criminal mastermind-style. Heavily investigation-based, but with enough scraps to make things dangerous/interesting/varied.

That's not to say it went perfectly; I had trouble getting a few players involved at the start, because they felt their characters wouldn't have any reason to involve themselves in the power-armoured bank robbery I had there to start things off. It worked out in the end, but they just sat there for a while. I also didn't get to show much characterization for most of the bad guys, though some NPCs that weren't even supposed to feature heavily did end up getting the spotlight. But hey, that's the way it goes, no problem there.

Also, though I prepared for the mind controller and prepared for the superspeedster, I sure didn't prepare for them working together in a situation I'd just improvised into existence. I put one of the villain's minions to shadow them without really considering how he'd get away if they went after him. They caught and mind controlled him, and it ended up being somewhat of a farce of a scene for a while as I furiously thought of some way to not have them spoil the entire plot at that point.

Eventually one of his accomplices sent his drones in, which actually managed to incapacitate the (incredibly squishy) mind controller and let the dude escape. They got a fair amount of information out of him, which was good for the story, but he did manage to get away, which was even better for the story.

Still, for the vast majority it went great - the players followed the plot much better than I'd actually expected, though there was a few times where they weren't totally sure of what to do. The best bit was probably an interrogation of one of the students that devolved into dark comedy as the Constantine-style mage accidentally almost killed her, leading them to lock the Director of the university out of the room and then create an illusion of everything being totally fine when she finally got in. They also had an unexpected amount of trouble with a seemingly unkillable student with power fists who kept rolling really well, all the time. Who they also decided had a choking fetish after he got force choked by the group telekinetic. I never thought I'd get to roll Insight for discovering new fetishes.

The main villain got burned and crippled at the end, and is definitely coming back... as Crucible, evil mastermind of super-engineering! His minions will also probably return, at least the memorable power fist dude. At some point, anyway.

Any tips or comments for a GM who's mostly run things online and mostly on forums before? I'm having a ton of fun with all this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 18, 2017, 05:08:48 am

If there's one piece of advice I can give as a meatspace DM, it's to beware the social beast. The majority of games I've been involved in have collapsed due to interplayer conflicts rather than lack of interest. Make sure the people you're inviting are able to get along and not be douche-bags, and the rest should sort itself out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: milo christiansen on April 18, 2017, 12:29:26 pm

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on April 13, 2017, 09:24:29 pm

@milo:  I kinda wanna play that.

Failing that I kinda wanna make a game based on that.

The problem is that I have this awesome idea for a setting, but no real knowledge of how to write good rules or run a game, and even worse, no one to play with (I know exactly 0 people who would be interested in an RPG).

If you (or anyone else) can turn the setting into something useable, then post some stories from a game here and I will be forever happy :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 18, 2017, 12:58:25 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on April 18, 2017, 04:58:20 am

Any tips or comments for a GM who's mostly run things online and mostly on forums before? I'm having a ton of fun with all this.

First: Congratulations on your first table session, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

One thing I do, is that after every session I ask each player how the experience was for them, using their feedback I try to tailor the game somewhat (not rules-wise, but story/motivations.)

It is also helpful to have a good understanding of how each player interacts with the story (as well as the other players, table games can get heated sometimes, don't be afraid to take breaks for a cool-down), by knowing what the player wants from the game you can better handle them.

We're here to offer any advice you may need, so by all means, ask any specific questions you want answers on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 18, 2017, 06:28:57 pm

Quote from: milo christiansen on April 18, 2017, 12:29:26 pm

The problem is that I have this awesome idea for a setting, but no real knowledge of how to write good rules or run a game, and even worse, no one to play with (I know exactly 0 people who would be interested in an RPG).

Two words: Forum game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 18, 2017, 06:31:54 pm

Heck do a forum game with a pre-existing rules system if you want to take out even more work for yourself, I'd recommend pathfinder since it's rules database is free if it would fit your setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 18, 2017, 06:34:34 pm

Quote from: kilakan on April 18, 2017, 06:31:54 pm

Heck do a forum game with a pre-existing rules system if you want to take out even more work for yourself, I'd recommend pathfinder since it's rules database is free if it would fit your setting.

Pathfinder would not fit this setting without significant houseruling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: milo christiansen on April 18, 2017, 06:37:07 pm

It might be fun (heck, I would love to), but I only have internet access for a few hours a day, twice a week (can't get it at home, so I drive to the nearest library).

Maybe someday.... For now I will watch. (but the day is coming)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 18, 2017, 06:37:44 pm

If the idea is mostly about the setting, consider doing a roll to dodge! Who needs rules when you have dice?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 18, 2017, 06:38:08 pm

Oh yeah I just realized he posted on the previous page about it.  Well I mean building a rules system isn't easy by any-means and I can't think of any existing system that would work well for your game... well hmmm maybe exalted and use manse rules for the pillars... probably still need tons of customization though.

Quote from: milo christiansen on April 18, 2017, 06:37:07 pm

It might be fun (heck, I would love to), but I only have internet access for a few hours a day, twice a week (can't get it at home, so I drive to the nearest library).

Maybe someday.... For now I will watch. (but the day is coming)

Oh sorry to hear that.  Well then, bide your time and scheme for your future time as a game master!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on April 18, 2017, 06:38:26 pm

Speaking of Pathfinder forum games, I'm still looking for applicants for Valhalla-Bound (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163390.0), a play-by-post low fantasy Norse-themed Pathfinder game. No offense to the people working on sheets already, but they're, er, certainly taking their time with it, and I'd like to have an array of charatcters to pick from.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 18, 2017, 06:43:27 pm

nyoro~n <:3

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: milo christiansen on April 18, 2017, 06:56:12 pm

Roll-to-dodge would actually probably work well for that setting, provided there was some GM discretion...

You would need players that want it to work though, as one ass could ruin the game by insisting on a ridiculous character or something... You wouldn't have hard rules to justify yourself, so once again we are back to needing reasonable, interested, players.

Oh well, I still don't have enough time to do a good job of it. I will definitely keep my documents around and keep adding detail as time goes by, maybe someday...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on April 18, 2017, 07:01:17 pm

Quote from: Tawa on April 18, 2017, 06:38:26 pm

Speaking of Pathfinder forum games, I'm still looking for applicants for Valhalla-Bound (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163390.0), a play-by-post low fantasy Norse-themed Pathfinder game. No offense to the people working on sheets already, but they're, er, certainly taking their time with it, and I'd like to have an array of charatcters to pick from.

I do not appreciate this public shaming ;~;

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on April 18, 2017, 08:09:25 pm

Alright, I'm having a bit of a fight with the 3.5 monster manual 2.

At the end, they introduce a rather nifty concept which I'd love to borrow- the creation of half-golems, people who have prostheses made from enchanted materials. It's a neat concept, one that fits well into a campaign where I'd like to throw people the bone of critical injury (severing a limb, crippling a nerve) as an alternative to straight-up death.

Problem: The rules are straight up busted for PCs.  Spend 20,000 gp, make a DC15 will save, and you've got +11 natural armor, +12 strength, +4 Con, DR 25/+2, a death poison breath weapon, and probably a hilarious amount of other broken shit that I'm forgetting. That's not for a full body Iron Golem conversion either, that's for getting a single iron arm.

Having a single arm made out of iron gives you more defense than full plate mail. Why? Why would that ever be true?

So, should I just try work out how to scale this a bit more realistically (Nerfing AC values, discarding the breath attacks/rage impulses/alignment shifts, nerfing or discarding DR), or should I just homebrew my own set of magitech bionics?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 18, 2017, 08:21:13 pm

I would say scale down everything existing you want to keep and homebrew everything that doesn't exist. Do you want a wooden arm? One made of pure water/magic fire/stone/x generic fantasy element, maybe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 18, 2017, 08:25:52 pm

I know eberron has some construct grafts that are a little bit more player friendly. Although they might go too far in the other direction, typically you pay a few hp permanently and a truck of gold and get a shitty bonus and sometimes some negative.

Probably the easiest thing to do would be to retexture an approprate magic item into a graft. Belt of giant strength? Iron Arm of giants strength. That's probably what I'd do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 18, 2017, 10:13:48 pm

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/variant-rules-3rd-party/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/the-loss-of-a-body-part/prosthetics/ (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/variant-rules-3rd-party/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/the-loss-of-a-body-part/prosthetics/)
These third party rules for pathfinder could be easily converted to 3.5e (as the systems are damn near identical) and the parts listed there seem significantly more balanced than what you found.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 19, 2017, 05:27:41 am

Yep, half-golem grafts are stupid unbalanced. As an alternative to what others have mentioned, perhaps look at the various dismembered body parts of Vecna (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Vecna). Of course, these are AD&D rules, so you'd need a hefty splash of houserules for porting it over.

Still, replacement parts should be a downgrade or sidegrade at most if you're offering dismemberment in replacement of outright player death. Otherwise you're incentivising reckless playstyles to gain permanent upgrades to their character. Losing a limb should be a traumatic experience, not something you plan as part of your character build.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 19, 2017, 07:57:43 pm

Dear bay12:
Vampire game restarted, with my old character returning to Charlotte to find it wracked by hunters.  She met with her butler coworker in an old model t, and tried to drive home.  But a heavy ambush disabled the vehicle, forcing them to flee by foot into a park and try to find a sewer entrance.  So far so good.  There we meet the 2 new PCs
...

Vampire A is a freaky nosferatu with shark teeth.  She fails her frenzy roll (only 3 dice) to frenzy at our unexpected and stressful appearance.  She runs up and grabs the butler, looking to diablerize him.  The butler is unphased.
Vampire B is a swarm of bees

Then one of the hunter rolls 12 successes on 9 dice, driving a stake straight through Vampire A's shark face.  She "survives" with 1 damage (of any type) meaning true death, falling over in torpor.

Vampire B.  Is a swarm.  Of bees.  he's not a vampire
he wrote a source book, bay12
it's full of bee puns
he's been waiting six months for this

Somehow this is blowing my mind even more than the < 1/20000, yes *twenty* thousand, roll the random hunter got on his first shot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 19, 2017, 08:03:30 pm

T- twenty-thousand? O_O

hwudda eggerbludding puck

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 19, 2017, 08:16:39 pm

The roll, and a look at the map.  The bees have a power called mid-air sex, so there are more now

Spoiler: I Kid You Not (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/cbypwm1.png)

oh but some are stinging themselves by accident, because tabletop games (or the stingers are just snapping off ineffectually)
the hunters are rolling for allergy, this is all in the book

Spoiler: Screenshot of the book (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/SBOJvVQ.png)

Spoiler: Allergy section (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/yOHpsPf.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 01:47:02 am

Current game idea: The party's going to get a quest to go rescue some runaway slaves that are being chased by hellhounds. The slaves are hiding in an abandoned mine, and I've built it with the five room dungeon rules.

First encounter is a straight up fight with the hellhounds at the entrance of the mine, which the slaves have barricaded with old minecarts, support beams and empty barrels.

Second encounter is a skill challenge across a room whose wooden floor has rotted away years ago, exposing a bottomless chasm. There's a set of rusty iron minecart rails across the chasm, but everything in the room is covered with slime.

Third encounter is a jury-rigged trap made by the slaves of three barrels of black powder hooked up to a tripwire and a tindertwig.

Fourth encounter is a straight up fight after finding and freeing the slaves who have been trapped by two earth elementals.

Fifth encounter is the NPC questgiver giving the party a hand breaking into the local slaver HQ to retrieve some important documents they've been after once they turn in the quest.

Looking forward to seeing whether the group picks up the clues to the tricks in the dungeon. The barrels in the first room have traces of black powder in them if examined, which is a clue to the third encounter trap. The second room is filled with flux slime, which is nasty stuff that emits an anti-magic aura, so no flying over the pit, plus it makes Climb and Acrobatic checks much more difficult. If they're clever enough to use a minecart from the first encounter to bypass the second encounter entirely, the greased wheels will plough them straight into the third encounter's trap. There's also a treasure worth 90K gp in the fourth encounter room, but it appears as a simple polished rock, so unless they actually try to detect magic, they're likely to miss it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 20, 2017, 07:34:12 am

@Rolan7: *inserts Nic Cage reference*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 07:07:07 pm

Apparently the new-ish Pathfinder Adventure Path, Ironfang Invasion, included Were-Raptors. Not like Dinosaur-Lycanthropes, but Bird-Lycanthropes.

It marks the first Lycanthrope that gains its animal's movement speed in Hybrid form, gaining quite a fly speed. Yea, turns out Were-Sharks and Were-Crocs can't swim.

Also includes a new Skinwalker heritage, which gets a whopping 10ft fly speed.

The art is weird. Fine for the most part, but it's got human feet. The rest of it is clearly bird. Weirds me out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 07:08:18 pm

Were-chickens are best lycanthropes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 20, 2017, 07:09:17 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 07:08:18 pm

Were-chickens are best lycanthropes.

To my knowledge only Half-lings and gnomes could be a Were-Chicken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 20, 2017, 07:32:31 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 07:08:18 pm

A thing that is not a werewolf are best werewolves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 07:44:10 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 20, 2017, 07:09:17 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 07:08:18 pm

Were-chickens are best lycanthropes.

To my knowledge only Half-lings and gnomes could be a Were-Chicken.

Yea, gotta be within one size category of the animal, last I checked. That would require either a massive chicken or an extraordinarily small man.

Now for a Stone Giant Were-Roc.

---

I had to google to see if werechickens were done before. Apparently there was an episode of the animated Ghostbusters cartoon involving a werechicken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 07:46:51 pm

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Or you could just be a Cock Fighter (https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AAVhtc9jjDglhno&cid=BE45A5E31B322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825%2120727&parId=BE45A5E31B322825%21194&o=OneUp).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Oneir on April 20, 2017, 08:31:09 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 07:07:07 pm

Apparently the new-ish Pathfinder Adventure Path, Ironfang Invasion, included Were-Raptors. Not like Dinosaur-Lycanthropes, but Bird-Lycanthropes.

Man, for a second you got my hopes up for were-feathered-raptors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 20, 2017, 08:44:26 pm

Quote from: Oneir on April 20, 2017, 08:31:09 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 07:07:07 pm

Apparently the new-ish Pathfinder Adventure Path, Ironfang Invasion, included Were-Raptors. Not like Dinosaur-Lycanthropes, but Bird-Lycanthropes.

Man, for a second you got my hopes up for were-feathered-raptors.

They are if I am reading his right.

Unless they are Were-Megaraptors who are the Jurassic Park Raptors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 20, 2017, 08:46:40 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on April 20, 2017, 07:32:31 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 07:08:18 pm

A thing that is not a werewolf are best werewolves.

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 07:44:10 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 20, 2017, 07:09:17 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 07:08:18 pm

Were-chickens are best lycanthropes.

To my knowledge only Half-lings and gnomes could be a Were-Chicken.

Yea, gotta be within one size category of the animal, last I checked. That would require either a massive chicken or an extraordinarily small man.

Now for a Stone Giant Were-Roc.

---

I had to google to see if werechickens were done before. Apparently there was an episode of the animated Ghostbusters cartoon involving a werechicken.

I beleived they got rid of that rule in 5e, but damn, is it funny to see a 3' tall gnome with pink hair turn into a size large bear-lady and destroy everything. I had the player roll to have after-effects of the transformation, such as stretch marks, baggy skin, etc. but thanks to being a barbarian, she never had it happen

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 09:08:54 pm

The rule is still there in Pathfinder though.

Here's an image of the new Lycanthrope.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/ThQtA9A.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 20, 2017, 09:42:22 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 09:08:54 pm

Here's an image of the new Lycanthrope.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[something that is not a werewolf]

:P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 20, 2017, 09:44:45 pm

In bird culture, this is considered a dick move.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 09:47:51 pm

I'm not at fault for others' disregard of language.

Apparently the new were-creatures in Bestiary 6 are called Entothropes. Were-Insects. Though Google tells me ento means inside. Inside-Man?

No Skinwalker heritages for them though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 20, 2017, 09:52:53 pm

I know, and I wasn't blaming you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 20, 2017, 09:53:37 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 09:08:54 pm

The rule is still there in Pathfinder though.

Here's an image of the new Lycanthrope.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/ThQtA9A.png)

I don't really care about pathfinder to be honest. Its 3.5 after it took a shot of speed, and despite some of my most fun sessions being in pathfinder, I really dislike it. Most classes are rendered obsolete very quickly, meaning half of the classes are not even viable for play if you plan on going more than level 8/9. I think pathfinder needs the right GM and the right players to really make it fun. Throw in one powergamer in a more laid back campaign, and its just not fun because every encounter is "struggle to stay alive while the powergamer obliterates everything".

I like how it has the potential to use any age of weaponry and it even has stuff for a modern campaign. I also like the hybrid classes (as useless as most of them do end up becoming) and I like some of the unique stuff they bring up, like the vigilante. But I do not like it for how unbalanced everything else is.

I can have a party in 5e with two rangers, a wizard and a cleric and it will hold up just as much as a party with a druid, a paladin, an artificer and a wizard. You never feel the need to be a class because its solely good or a certain role needs to be filled. The whole archetype thing, while I do feel that it takes away from having completely different classes (examples: Ninja is now just an archtype for monk, blackguard is literally a paladin who has taken the alternate oathbreaker archetype, warlord is now a fighter archetype, warder (I think that is what it was) is now just a mystic school, etc.) it does make every single build feel viable (except ranger before it got the update; it really needed that...).

I will play the worst game of 4E over pathfinder, because at least the variety and viability of every class makes it feel like I can be whatever I want. Do I want to be a tanky beater? Berserker or avenger with the right feats. 5E I can do the same thing too, although there isn't much out right now officially. I allow every unearthed arcana into my game unless it is specified as "BAD EXAMPLE, DON'T USE THIS" or there is an updated version of it (eberron setting had artificer as an archetype of wizard, and now it's its own class, mystic got an overhaul, etc.). Pathfinder will never have that balance because to change anything would cause an uproar in the pathfinder community. Thats the way they play.

I may not like it, but that's how they like it. Same with me how I like to play; if I want to be a 4e laser cleric then damnit, I'm going to be a laser cleric

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 20, 2017, 09:54:39 pm

Uh oh did my joke not get joked properly? It was a joke oh no.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 10:41:36 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on April 20, 2017, 09:52:53 pm

I know, and I wasn't blaming you?

Quote from: Gentlefish on April 20, 2017, 09:54:39 pm

Uh oh did my joke not get joked properly? It was a joke oh no.

Jokes are difficult to portray over text.

The bird still bugs me. It should have talons, not human feet. I remember an argument over where talons go on Paizo's messageboard, where devs had to faq that Claws are for hands, and Talons are for feet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 20, 2017, 10:43:08 pm

Whew. Yeah I was just noting how it looks like bird person.

Now I need to play a were-raptor so I can be bird person.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 20, 2017, 10:46:02 pm

The sidebar in the book actually says that Wereraptor-Skinwalkers don't actually have beaks. That bird clearly has a beak.

I love Paizo's art most of the time, but it rarely lines up with the text properly.

Ah, right. Here's Skinwalker stats.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/pbM7ULa.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 20, 2017, 10:46:11 pm

I can think of several decent builds centred around a chicken lycanthrope fighter.

If you want to focus on ranged takedown options, a bola specialised fighter could make a good cock-and-balls build.

If you have the chicken animal familiar, it can take the Wing Buffet feat for extra attack deliciousness.

Taking the Bodyguard feat is another way to help keep your cock up during tough encounters.

Investing in UMD could allow you access to scrolls and wands of spells like Mirror Image or False Life. Even a lowly 1st level spell like Grease could be help prevent enemies from grabbing your cock.

A small sized character with the Mauler archetype familiar could go the mounted combat route and ride his own cock.

A splash of Shaman could grant a familiar Spirit's Gift, allowing you to choose Stone every day, gaining DR 5/adamantine for a rock hard cock.

Remember to get Muleback Cords or something similar so your cock can handle heavy loads. Then even if one of the other PCs is too big to ride your cock you could at least pick them up and fly them over obstacles.

If you obtained an auroch or bison animal companion with Animal Ally you could create a Cock and Bull Story.

A Donkey wouldn’t be quite as good in combat but is a fairly cheap purchased creature. If you could just come up with one more pet which has the Ride skill you could take Cavalry Formation to fit the cock and ass together into tight spaces.

Don't forget to buy barding for your animals. If you're sending your cock into battle, you'll want it to wear protection.

Be careful if you face any tetori monks, strangler brawlers, or other grapple specialists. Your animal companion won't have a high CMD, and you don't want to let them choke your chicken.

If you want an upgrade, consider a peacock animal companion over a chicken familiar for increased size bonuses. You can get a long way with the Mauler archetype, but at the end of the day you still only have a tiny cock.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 20, 2017, 10:54:25 pm

.....Wow dude.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 20, 2017, 11:26:59 pm

/me golf claps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 20, 2017, 11:28:29 pm

_{if its not a wolf the term lycanthrope is inherently inaccurate}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 20, 2017, 11:36:48 pm

Might have been right on the edge there a couple times Jimmy, please keep forum guidelines in mind when posting.  That was pretty damn amusing tho'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 21, 2017, 12:11:16 am

Just a little innuendo alongside totally legitimate Pathfinder build advice. Nothing intentionally offensive or flame-baiting.

After all, I wouldn't want to get cocky and consider myself some kind of master baiter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 21, 2017, 12:12:25 am

Knock on wood.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 21, 2017, 03:58:53 am

I FINALLY understand how to run Dusk City Outlaws competently enough to run a game.

I think I'll do a play by post oneshot as I wait for the rules to be completely finished.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 21, 2017, 04:26:53 pm

I am starting a pathfinder game called Sanguine Lux, set in a world of my own creation.  It's a level 3 campaign which starts you off as a prisoner in an arena, wrongfully abducted from your home in the night and set to fight against others in a life and death struggle.  Work with your fellow prisoners to win or escape the tournament so that you might seek answers and revenge!
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163845.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163845.0)
It will be a weekly run game using roll20, and the story I have in mind should take at least 12-16 sessions to finish.  After that I will be continuing to use the world, and most likely the same characters can continue on to the next ark.  I look forwards to people joining as this is something I've been working on for quite a few months now! 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 21, 2017, 07:37:45 pm

aaaaa roll20

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 21, 2017, 07:58:04 pm

What's wrong with roll20?  If there's something better I am not aware of for weekly over the internet games I'd love to know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 21, 2017, 08:05:59 pm

Yeah my group's been using Roll20 for years now, it's lovely.  The built-in video and sound was pretty bad... like 4 years ago, when we started...  So we just use Skype (or briefly Teamspeak).  The stuff like importing images, playing music, and making rolls are pretty great.

Some of us use macros for common rolls, which is really easy to set up.  Theoretically it can pull data from tokens for modifiers and stuff, but I only really used that on one particularly math-y DND character.  It's nice to have the option, anyway.

Bonus:  Drawing random stuff on the map if a turn goes on too long

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 21, 2017, 08:09:15 pm

Quote from: kilakan on April 21, 2017, 07:58:04 pm

What's wrong with roll20?  If there's something better I am not aware of for weekly over the internet games I'd love to know.

I don't tihnk people on bay12 like taking time out of their schedule to use it.I can't put away time for roll20, especially since every game tends to be saturday afternoons

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on April 21, 2017, 08:23:32 pm

Fair enough i guess, figured I'd post here since this is my primary community.  Running it on roll20 cause I have a friend who I've played with for years that is gonna be in it but some new players would be nice.  Should of mentioned that the game would be on Tuesday's at 4:00pm est

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on April 21, 2017, 08:27:00 pm

I actually like roll20, but unless a game is on the weekend and relatively early in the afternoon I simply can't ever guarantee being able to attend sessions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 21, 2017, 08:30:39 pm

Roll20 once ran into my room brandishing a machete, swinging, and screaming obscenities.

Might have been a dream though.

I've had glitches in Roll20 but even if I multiplied the negatives of Roll20 there isn't anything that comes close to it in terms of quality and usability.

One of the only programs that could have competed with Roll20 is far too expensive (it needed to have GM and Player versions) and far too difficult to modify for the average user.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 22, 2017, 12:55:51 am

I've never bothered with roll20 since I live in GMT +10 timezone. Literally nobody runs games that fit my schedule. Play by post is too clunky to use efficiently as well. I think I'll stick with my home game on my kitchen table with beer and bad jokes.

Speaking of which, my group finally took an adventure hook bait! They got a message slipped under their door at the local inn at midnight telling them to wait at dawn at a nearby farm speak a special code when approached. They did it, met the local vigilante, got given a quest to rescue some slaves from being torn apart by a pack of hellhounds, and were promised their reward if they completed the mission.

The fight against the hellhounds could have gone better, however. They used Wind Walk to travel after the pack, and half the group was still in gaseous form when the combat started. The look on their faces when I told them it takes 5 rounds to turn solid again was priceless! The samurai got surrounded and dropped to negative, used his once per combat ability to stay on 1 hit point, and the cleric pulled his ass out of the fire using their domain teleportation. It was only because the cleric burned through most of his high level spells to cast spontaneous cures that they survived.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 22, 2017, 06:54:23 am

I almost wonder if... Discord would work halfway decently as a way to do a more fluid play by post...

I mean you can even set your nicknames... Set multiple chats up for IC and OCC... Even a section for rolls if you need it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 22, 2017, 08:14:36 am

Kind of a pain to scroll back up for things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 22, 2017, 08:49:21 am

Quote from: Sirus on April 21, 2017, 08:27:00 pm

I actually like roll20, but unless a game is on the weekend and relatively early in the afternoon I simply can't ever guarantee being able to attend sessions.

Case in point.

Quote from: Neonivek on April 21, 2017, 08:30:39 pm

Roll20 once ran into my room brandishing a machete, swinging, and screaming obscenities.

Might have been a dream though.

I've had glitches in Roll20 but even if I multiplied the negatives of Roll20 there isn't anything that comes close to it in terms of quality and usability.

One of the only programs that could have competed with Roll20 is far too expensive (it needed to have GM and Player versions) and far too difficult to modify for the average user.

My friend uses tabletop sim for his games and then screen shares via Skype. He doesn't use music often because his fantasy music library is only dark souls, and it doesn't fit the more nonsensical game he has... Except when my character goes into a berserker rage, and then it becomes a theme song for myself as I slaughter enemies

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 22, 2017, 08:54:09 am

If we're talking about tabletop sim programs, I like maptools a lot more then roll20, roll20 is certainly a lot more convenient for quickly getting together since it's just an internet link and you play though your browser, and the music feature is nice. But maptools feels like a much easier to use tool once you get into it, and has better options and more control, at least, that's how I feel.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cattani on April 24, 2017, 03:51:14 pm

Still on the topic of tabletop sims...

My group is currently changing platforms from meetings at our GM's house to roll20, and I'm wondering how these online platforms affect off-topic chatter and such.
I mean, the GM will love to end off-topic conversations, but I worry if it will hurt the friendly environment that's required for a fun gaming experience. I think about it because some players in our group are bound to leave if the game become too impersonal.

Anyone care to share experiences about this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Shook on April 24, 2017, 06:13:49 pm

Well, if you use voice chat via Skype or similar platforms, the only difference will be that you can't see each other. I know i've had my share of off-topic chatter over Roll20 + Skype, so i wouldn't really worry about that part disappearing. If you only use text though, i won't lie, it gets kinda impersonal, but it can totally still work. I played a tiny bit of D&D that way, it ended up with the creation of a guy we called Godballs. :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on April 24, 2017, 11:36:07 pm

*MC sits in his tiny play-by-post corner by himself*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 24, 2017, 11:49:21 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on April 24, 2017, 11:36:07 pm

*MC sits in his tiny play-by-post corner by himself*

I am doing a Play by Post soon... I just need to do a interest check and then a write up.

The problem is how to hype it... hmmm

Since it is Dusk City Outlaws... a game even "I" haven't played yet... Hmmm.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on April 24, 2017, 11:53:50 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 24, 2017, 11:49:21 pm

I am doing a Play by Post soon... I just need to do a interest check and then a write up.

The problem is how to hype it... hmmm

What system is it?
It seems everything these days uses Pathfinder, and I don't know jack about that system.
_{And since I don't have a computer, I can't look it up. The site that most people link to won't load on my DS}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: flabort on April 25, 2017, 12:05:12 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on April 24, 2017, 11:53:50 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 24, 2017, 11:49:21 pm

I am doing a Play by Post soon... I just need to do a interest check and then a write up.

The problem is how to hype it... hmmm

What system is it?
It seems everything these days uses Pathfinder, and I don't know jack about that system.
_{And since I don't have a computer, I can't look it up. The site that most people link to won't load on my DS}

I've heard pathfinder is 90% 3.5 dnd, 10% reballancing of the classes, 10% modern-themed homebrew; yes, I know that adds up to 110%. That said, never had the opportunity to look at in in depth myself or to play it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 12:12:29 am

Dusk City Outlaws a pick up and play system where you are a bunch of Quasi-Mafioso members who have to pull of a bunch of daring heists.

You pick your class and cartel and they do have an effect. Most of your actions are to attempt to increase your chances of pulling off the final heist.

However, if you draw too much attention to yourself you start to generate heat. The more heat you generate the more complications will arise (Heat doesn't end the game, unless I guess it was a mechanic for a heist... which it always isn't) as city watch, royals, and detectives start to work against you... or even just bad luck in your path.

I'll definitely have to do a run through of the rules for the players... so I guess I'll put a copy here later.

---

A big plus in its favor that I am a big fan of is how much of the game is just... done.

There is an Alchemist class and their ability is to create alchemical items, they can create anything they want within reason (and there is a section of the book that highlights the three-four precepts.) and they can create them without needing to roll.

In fact the Assassin's ability is if they catch a minion on their lonesome... they just kill them.

---

A negative is that other than the class and cartel you don't have any other impact on your character other than backstory, gender, name, appearance... that stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 25, 2017, 12:48:45 am

Sounds more like a boardgame than a legit RPG, but what do I know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 01:02:50 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 25, 2017, 12:48:45 am

Sounds more like a boardgame than a legit RPG, but what do I know.

Games like this are actually becoming more and more popular as players want to do character creation and rule fiddling less and less...

Pick up and play might end up becoming more popular than dungeons and dragons eventually as the hobby becomes more popular.

Though you definitely aren't the first person to compare it to a boardgame...

I just like how it doesn't try to weasel you out of your own abilities... like... most pen and paper RPGs try to do.

To admit I do regret getting it.. >_< but I felt guilty pissing on it when Reelya chewed me out for not liking it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on April 25, 2017, 02:29:00 am

Eh, I'd be willing to try it.

I can see why people would be for/against simpler games, as each have their own merits (Yeah, some PnP games do try to weasel you out of some clever ideas, but having a good GM helps {which is why I like how Highmax puts up with my insane teleporting nonsense in his games :P }). I'm good with either, really.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 25, 2017, 05:08:06 pm

We managed to save an Ifrit when the Adventure Path said that it would likely die in the first round of combat. The reward is two wishes, and we were at a loss.

What would a party wish for? We were more or less at a loss. Our Gunslinger asked for a better gun and the Summoner wanted an extra Evo point for the Eidolon.

We also ran into an Adult Silver Dragon. We really should have died. The DM said the encounter table is really weird. Lots of stuff that wouldn't fight you, or were way tougher than what the party should face.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 05:14:41 pm

Quote

The DM said the encounter table is really weird. Lots of stuff that wouldn't fight you

A LOT of modern encounter tables include friendlies and other such stuff.

If it wouldn't fight you, typically it wouldn't fight you (unless something else is going on)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on April 25, 2017, 05:39:25 pm

I'm not super familiar with DnD - is the encounter table meant just for combat encounters? Seems to me you could do a lot of interesting stuff with that. Maybe the dragon wants something from you - maybe it's looking for something and comes to interrogate you, not to eat you... unless you piss it off. Would make a nifty social encounter, maybe a plot hook for the future too. Or maybe it's under a curse or obligation (are silver dragons Lawful?) and can't engage in its usual evil behavior.

Wait, aren't metallic dragons good in DnD? How'd your DM even justify it attacking you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 25, 2017, 05:42:03 pm

SD are also pretty territorial, but you are right in that the encounter table can and should be adapted based on the DMs needs, not usually a good idea to use it exclusively for combat honestly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 05:44:58 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on April 25, 2017, 05:39:25 pm

I'm not super familiar with DnD - is the encounter table meant just for combat encounters? Seems to me you could do a lot of interesting stuff with that. Maybe the dragon wants something from you - maybe it's looking for something and comes to interrogate you, not to eat you... unless you piss it off. Would make a nifty social encounter, maybe a plot hook for the future too. Or maybe it's under a curse or obligation (are silver dragons Lawful?) and can't engage in its usual evil behavior.

Wait, aren't metallic dragons good in DnD? How'd your DM even justify it attacking you?

Encounters are just... that... They are what you encounter during your exploration. In classic dungeons and dragons it was monsters... because... well that was the only thing you were doing.

Modern encounter tables will often include things like friendlies or even random treasure as things you can run across.

As for how a DM could justify a good creature attacking you...

I should remind you that ONE of the metallic dragons will eat you... if you bore it or show bad manners (Gold Dragons :P yes... the "Goodest" ones will totally do that). So good isn't as pacifistic or even reasonable as the people who book beat "Stupid Stupid" good alignments into the community 24 hours a day.

Maybe the Silver dragon smelled that one of your ancestors was evil, and considers you evil (Totally within the good alignment to think that way AND that is one of the Metalic dragon's abilities)... Maybe that Silver Dragon wasn't good (there are plenty of not good metallic dragons)... Maybe it was under some sort of mind control, delirium, or disease... or maybe it was just hungry.

Once again... dnd doesn't conform to the "stupid stupid" alignments if you do more then just read the alignment sections. Though this is because alignment is constantly contradicted and confused as to what it has to be even within the story and rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 25, 2017, 06:13:03 pm

neo, no alignment discussions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 06:14:33 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 25, 2017, 06:13:03 pm

neo, no alignment discussions.

You just broke your own rule!

I didn't break it, you did! It wasn't a discussion until you put your 2 cents in right now.

So stop it before you ban yourself from this topic!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on April 25, 2017, 06:22:43 pm

...Moving on,

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on April 25, 2017, 05:39:25 pm

I'm not super familiar with DnD - is the encounter table meant just for combat encounters? Seems to me you could do a lot of interesting stuff with that. Maybe the dragon wants something from you - maybe it's looking for something and comes to interrogate you, not to eat you... unless you piss it off. Would make a nifty social encounter, maybe a plot hook for the future too. Or maybe it's under a curse or obligation (are silver dragons Lawful?) and can't engage in its usual evil behavior.

Wait, aren't metallic dragons good in DnD? How'd your DM even justify it attacking you?

I've solved a few encounters by feeding some dragons gems. My party members weren't happy about it but we got out of there, being level 9, against a Huge bronze dragon (dragons didn't really have the same alignments as they did in that campaign as usual)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 25, 2017, 06:29:53 pm

Reasonable solution.  Dragons love gems, dragons do not hate or care for you.

Our GM generally ignored loot tables, though also the entire XP system.  Loot generally came from us robbing people (*usually* bad guys, though sometimes...) or because we took down some evil spellcaster who, naturally, had also sorts of crazy magic items strewn about.  Useful, and also failed experiments- unlabelled, naturally, because the owner was a super genius.

He was kinda generous with said magic items, though they were mostly (even chargen ones) customized to be... quirky.  In some cases, extremely.  I think the wizard for a while had a cat amulet which took a memory in exchange for granting a reroll.  It had a key eye for memories which would cause hijinks... very feline.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 06:31:43 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 25, 2017, 06:29:53 pm

Reasonable solution.  Dragons love gems, dragons do not hate or care for you.

Interestingly enough, and not used enough, each dragon actually has preferences of treasure they enjoy.

and when I say not used enough... I mean... for example one dragon actually prefers to collect seashells and coral. Wouldn't that be an interesting stash to get?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on April 25, 2017, 09:11:56 pm

So in my last pathfinder session, my character died. We're doing the Carrion Crown and there these Relics for these super bad Haunts. And one of them, is from what I can tell, the dnd version of the DeathNote. Except it also eats spells.  The original PC that had it, went into a coma, partialy because of the book partially because they dont show up very often. And so my character was trying to make them as comfrotable as possible, and they were clutching the Deathnote. I wasnt thinking or appericating that the relic would attach itself to a new person.

And it attached to me. My character a rogue so I dont have any spells to lose. So then we bought this slow spell. We discover this spot near the town where recently dead pets and animals couldnt come to rest. And a slow spell would solve it. Except right now, no one is an arcane spell caster. So its all a Use Magic Device check. I being the rogue, have the highest UMD and took the spell. The spell we just spent 250 gold on. And mind you, we've been super cash poor. We broke open a safe, and got 500 gold and it was the most money we've gotten this entire campaign.  So I grabbed it, and the Deathnote ate the spell. It wasn't actually eaten. I firmly believed it was Eaten. And the scroll was blank. I refuse to let anyone have it.

But I was able to let the rest of the party beat me unconscience so they could take it.
And I died instead of being subdued.

I was brought outside and the gm and I had a talk.
I was told I wake up and told that some time has passed and that my friends have moved on. The local church had resurrested me, and I now owed them a great debt for this service I havent asked for.

I lived that life for 3 years.

Then I suddendly woke up in the house, dark alone. I screamed till I was horse, then quitely sobbed.

Fine times.

Then we manage to kill one of the haunts. Which surprise us. Somehow casting the slow spell manage to kill one of the haunts. And then we went back into the Prison and manage to kill one more. It was over their own pit dungeon with its mangaled arms and legs. And as it attacked us, it did Bleed Damage to restore itself. Kind of cool. Eventuall the rest of the party disengage from the Haunt, as we werent hurting it, and just being sources for it to heal itself.

Then we came back to this closed secruity grate, made out of heavy wood. The wenchy system was broken. And one of the players finally remembered that they had the Engineering skill, the knowledge skill needed to solve this problem. And then after he rolls that successfully, we ended up just decided to spend like 10 hours buring the gate down.

Also, uh, I forgot I am suppose to have a feat at third level, in Pathfinder. I just took my Rogue Trait.

And so then I looked at the feats, and like wow, fuck that noise. No idea what to pick.

I just went through Pazio wikia list, and just picked what sounded cool. Could totally use help with that.

My stats are like

Str 10 Dex 14 Con 10, Wis 14, Cha 16. I'm a 3rd level Rogue, and my race is Sulu and my aligment is NG. I already have Weapon Finess.

I was considering a few feats.

Alterness. Skill Focus: Diplomancy,  Sacred Sneak Attack (There a feat that lets me pick a nother Rogue Trait), Bleed. This is nother rogue trait that lets me add Bleed affect to Sneak Attack. And Esoteric Knowledge. Lets me roll any knowledge skill once a day. Suli Racial Trait that I forget the name of that gives me a bonus to diplo or bluff for someone that I've known less then an hour.
The one that sounded the dumbest and coolest, is called Possessed Hand. Basically a ghost lives in my hand, and get +1 to attack damage, disable device and sleight of hand. And it can get shit out of inventory.

But honestly have no fuckin idea what to pick. Open to suggestions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 25, 2017, 09:56:33 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 06:14:33 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on April 25, 2017, 06:13:03 pm

neo, no alignment discussions.

You just broke your own rule!

I didn't break it, you did! It wasn't a discussion until you put your 2 cents in right now.

So stop it before you ban yourself from this topic!

Seriously Null. You're your own worst enemy with this. You start more fights than anyone in this thread and then get upset when people call you out for it.

Quote from: Neonivek on April 25, 2017, 06:31:43 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 25, 2017, 06:29:53 pm

Reasonable solution.  Dragons love gems, dragons do not hate or care for you.

Interestingly enough, and not used enough, each dragon actually has preferences of treasure they enjoy.

and when I say not used enough... I mean... for example one dragon actually prefers to collect seashells and coral. Wouldn't that be an interesting stash to get?

This is actually interesting. Is this in the draconomicon or is this solely just in the Monster Manual?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 25, 2017, 10:41:57 pm

I assume that was a misattribution, since NFO didn't bring up alignment at all...

And while the alignment portion of Neo's statement was fairly tame, alignment discussions have a proven tendency to explode, and they have a containment thread for that reason.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on April 25, 2017, 11:42:10 pm

*MC stuffs the alignment discussion in a box and locks it, setting the loot discussion on top of it*

That's actually one of the things I really liked about the DnD 5e rulebook, is that it had a "trinket" section of just random crap that you could throw in with loot for more RP reason than any kind of practicality reasons.
Like mummified goblin hands, or voodoo dolls, or items that are cleverly out-of-place modern technology, like a small tube with a metal disc at the top that clicks when spun (an empty lighter).

Not quite "dragon horde of beach shit" but still cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 26, 2017, 02:50:13 am

I love loot. I love getting it and giving it out. Because of this, I like to use creative stuff when building loot tables for an area. I found an awesome resource that others might like to use in their games too, though it's mainly suited for Pathfinder or other D&D. I like to fill the dungeon with minor items of value, and familiarise my players with the Appraise skill. These (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1owuxn/100_items_of_little_value/) reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1pp64x/100_minor_treasures_items_150/) posts are a great starting point to draw inspiration from which to build your own loot lists. I've included the contents below.

Spoiler: Minor Treasure Table (click to show/hide)

01- A pair of brass candlesticks carved into the image of monks raising torches (value 3sp each)
02- A broken dagger with some silver insets (8sp)
03- A finely woven blue, wool scarf (1gp)
04- A trio of bone dice with silver-filled pips (1sp each)
05- A rotting leather cap with a copper buckle on the brim. (4sp for the buckle)
06- A book of wood-bound paper; blank. The forty pages are severely water damaged and the maple wood cover is warped. (7sp)
07- A cracked mask of teak wood, colored in (chipped) blue and red paint depicting the face of a fairy (4sp)
08- A worn leather belt with 17 silver pieces sewn inside it. (18sp)
09- A small steel shield, triangular, emblazoned with a griffon device in red on a field of gray. This battered shield is inscribed on the interior with the words: “May this shield be your protection in battle, Jallak. Honor the Galbrand name.” (7gp)
10- A ceremonial short spear; ash wood with an iron point. Seven red and three blue dyed vulture feathers are attached to the head of the spear. The iron is fluted to whistle through the air, if thrown. (3gp)
11- A leather harness bearing three short quivers (sized for quarrels, rather than arrows). The first holds a dozen red-fletched quarrels, the second a dozen green fletched quarrels, and the third has a dozen white fletched quarrels. (5gp)
12- A small, poorly-done, woolen tapestry depicting a field of flowers with a mountain and stream in the background. The foreground has a trio of men with spades digging up a grass-covered hillock. One of the men has his right arm raised, showing a golden crown to his comrades. (10gp)
13- A copper scroll tube, sealed with wax. (Firetrapped! A fiery explosion fills the area within a 5-foot radius around the spell’s center. The flames deal 1d4+12 damage; reflex-save against DC 16 for half damage.) There is nothing inside. The Fire Trap spell does not harm the scroll case. (7gp)
14- A silver ring shaped into the likeness of a bull’s head. (4gp)
15- A copper necklace set with a small amulet shaped into a symbol representing the sun. (2gp)
16- A necklace of human teeth on a chain of silver wire. (1gp for the silver)
17- A large (5ft x 4ft) crude painting of a pinch-face man riding a brown and white dappled horse. The frame is intricately carved on oak, bearing a long inscription in some lost, runic language. The frame is obviously much older than the painting. The inscription can be deciphered by a sage, or with a Comprehend Languages spell (or the like). The inscription should lead to some adventure (treasure map or the like, at the DM’s discretion) (5gp for the frame)
18- A well-used copy of Danver Teth’s “Of Blazing Glory”, a religious volume honored by the church of the fire god. Inscribed on the opening page is the following written in a flowing, red script: “This foretells of the coming fire. When the Flame ascends, all glory comes to the Pitmaster!” (3gp)
19- A stuffed falcon, tattered with age, with black onyx eyes. (Onyx value: 5gp each)
20- A goblin skull that has been dipped in molten copper. (1gp)
21- A one-gallon cask of Demon’s Vale Wine; a fiery red wine known to be made from hot peppers. (10gp)
22- Four bars of copper. (2gp each)
23- An archer’s bracer of leather and electrum. (25sp)
24- A petrified bone greatclub with an obsidian head. (9gp)
25- A leather bag containing a black silk shirt with eight silver buttons. (Bag: 1sp, shirt: 8gp)
26- A finely made silver chalice etched in arcane symbols (non-magical). (7gp)
27- A small, white jade pendant without necklace. The pendant depicts a unicorn rampant with a cracked back leg. (10gp)
28- A fluted crystal vase 18inches tall. (8gp)
29- A copper hand bell with a pinewood handle. (15sp)
30- A 5 ft. tall bookstand in maple-wood, the front of which is carved into the likeness of three intertwined foxes. (6gp)
31- A marble bust of a long-nosed man wearing a broad-brimmed hat. (7gp)
32- A set of four copper pots of various sizes. (8sp, 12sp, 23sp, 30sp; 9gp for the set)
33- A dagger sheath of bronze, set with a small moonstone. (10gp)
34- A pouch filled with 13 silver sling bullets. Each bullet is engraved with the holy symbol of Pelor. (1sp each)
35- An ornately carved quarterstaff of teakwood. The end is carved into the likeness of a dragon’s head, with (painted red) flame issuing from its mouth and the butt end carved into an entwining serpent-like tail. (5gp)
36- A foot-high bronze statuette of a pair of entwined nymphs, dancing. (8gp)
37- A large chunk of raw silver ore (roughly 25 pounds). (5 gp; 8gp when smelted)
38- A bronze hooded lantern with four colored-glass panels (red, green, yellow, and white). An inscription on the bottom reads: “Place carefully at the apex, aligning the colors, to release the Captive.”(10gp)
39- A wooden sizing mold with a suit of padded armor on it. (Mold: 3gp; padded armor: 5gp)
40- A silver-tipped quill with an elaborate white feather. (7sp)
41- A set of 12 matching pewter mugs in a wooden crate. (6sp each)
42- A set of eight stonemason chisels in a leather case. (10gp)
43- A silver thimble. (4sp)
44- A gold tooth; unattached. (8sp)
45- An electrum pendant shaped like a curled-up cat. (6gp)
46- A thick copper necklace set with a small aquamarine. (7gp)
47- A string of 8 beaver pelts. (4sp each)
48- An oak cane carved with many small holy symbols of Heironeous. (7gp, can be used as a holy symbol)
49- A newly crafted barrel filled with iron nails. (Barrel: 2gp, nails: 3gp)
50- A rotting wheelbarrow holding 167 torches. (Torches: 1cp each)
51- A short quiver holding 3 sunrods (2gp each)
52- A book of bad poetry, entitled “Talk of the Majesty of Mice” by someone named Callybaw Yure, bound in copper plates. (2gp)
53- A human skeleton in rotted priest’s robes wearing a ring and necklace. (Electrum ring: 4gp Silver necklace: 3gp)
54- A leather ball stuffed with chicken feathers and a plain electrum ring. (Ring: 35sp)
55- A small silver whistle. (3gp)
56- A large (36” diameter) bronze bell. (10gp)
57- A logging saw designed for two-person use. (8gp)
58- A copper mortar and pestle. (6gp)
59- A child’s cloth doll with a small silver brooch pinned to it in the shape of a butterfly. (Brooch: 4gp)
60- A bright red hooded cape sized for a child, spattered with dried blood. (1gp)
61- An ornamental rod of office, bronze topped with a key-like device, roughly 24” long. (5gp)
62- A jar containing six eyeballs (2 human, 1 goblin, 1 ogre, 1 worg, and 1 hawk) in a clear liquid. (2gp for all)
63- A small wooden shield bound in human skin bearing a (full-shield) tattoo that appears to be some sort of map. The skin is held in place with a rim of beaten copper. (7gp)
64- A small colored-glass window depicting the crowning of the first king. (10gp)
65- A set of 8 silver spoons. (6sp each)
66- A set of four paint brushes (horsehair and pinewood). (Total: 9sp)
67- A low, three-legged stool with a brass seat. (4gp)
68- A small fish (4”) in silver with green-colored-glass eyes. (2gp)
69- A low, broad table in polished birch wood, large enough to seat ten people. (8gp)
70- A rotted saddlebag with coins spilling out. The copper coins have some verdigris, and the silver coins are badly tarnished. (142 cp, 46sp, 2gp)
71- A blood-soaked book; a partially written history about a long-lost keep on the borderlands. The last written page is done in a different hand, and is scrawled with “The rules have changed!” in large, bold letters. Roughly a third of the book (of 100 pages) has been used. (5gp)
72- A string of sixteen goblin teeth alternating with seventeen silver beads. (2gp)
73- A well-made satchel of red-dyed leather with brass fasteners. Inside the satchel are a variety of financial records that are in code, but (if deciphered) detail some of the illegal workings of the Moonscar Assassins’ guild. (4gp)
74- Four pink satin pillows. (5sp each)
75- A slim, golden hairpin in the likeness of a shrike. (6gp)
76- A dozen chicken eggs; hollowed out and filled with white flour. (5cp each)
77- A cask full of bronze caltrops (6 pounds). (3gp)
78- A delicately embroidered black linen robe with silver stitching in a flowing design. (5gp)
79- A shattered iron-bound oak door with three silver latches. The door had once been carved with great care, but whatever was depicted is now destroyed. (Latches: 2gp each)
80- Six bolts of green-dyed linen (10 sq. yards each). (1gp each)
81- A barrel filled with broken crockery. Near the bottom is a mouse nest in which, amidst the tangled mouse fur, lays a silver ring set with a polished tigerseye. (4gp)
82- A small, brown glass jar, sealed with wax, with a gray dust inside. A white label is affixed to the jar, and reads: “Zombie Dust” in a shaky script. (It is zombie dust. Value: 3gp)
83- A wooden leg, carved to appear as a standing leopard with green agate eyes. (Agates: 4gp each; the whole leg, with eyes: 10gp)
84- A scourge of red-dyed leather with iron filings entwined in the leather. (4gp)
85- A small cask of yellow clothiers’ dye. (8gp)
86- A thin malachite bracelet with a silver clasp. (6gp)
87- An iron torc with six small silver figurines: A hare, a horse, a spear, a wolf’s head, a simple circle, and an oak tree. (9gp)
88- An ivory and copper smoking pipe with stale tobacco inside. (4gp)
89- Three large iron ingots, such as those sold to blacksmiths. (1gp each)
90- A pair of elaborate, unattached bronze wall sconces suitable for use with torches or oil. (2gp each)
91- An iron-banded oaken door ready for mounting. (5gp)
92- Seventy-three clay vials of oil (1 pint each). (1sp each)
93- A hand-fan of clipped, black-dyed harpy feathers bound with copper wiring. (9gp)
94- A six-foot cubed block of black granite, suitable for sculpting. (10gp)
95- Rabbit-fur mittens and hat sized for a child. (1gp)
96- A thick leather satchel containing an adventurers’ kit: 6 wax candles, two pieces of white chalk, two pieces of red chalk, a small bag of (100) clay marbles, a whistle, four pieces of charcoal, three large sacks, six iron pitons, a hammer, a tinderbox with flint and steel, 2 empty copper vials, a chunk of coal, and three large sheets of paper. (10gp)
97- A rotting horse carcass with a broken lance in its chest, but with usable pack saddle, saddle bags, bit and bridle. (9gp)
98- A small, crystal vial of a clear, viscous liquid that smells strongly of honeysuckle. (Vial: 4gp, Perfume: 3gp)
99- A finely crafted figurine of a blue dragon, rampant, done in wood and painted. (6sp)
100- A set of 2 hard-backed chairs of hickory. (1gp each)

Spoiler: Lesser Treasure Table: Hide (click to show/hide)

01- A cloak of griffon feathers set on black velvet. (60gp)
02- A large (30”x24”), oval serving tray of (tarnished) silver trimmed in gold. (55gp)
03- A broad dagger with a hilt that can be unscrewed. The space revealed is sufficient to hold up to 25 coins, and currently holds 10 gold coins and 15 silver coins. (Dagger value: 15gp)
04- A bronze-reinforced wooden chariot sized for two riders, painted red and yellow. (80gp)
05- A set of scale mail created from copper coins with matching gauntlets. (80gp)
06- A delicate silver chain set with a tourmaline (28gp)
07- A set of five small silver statuettes (each about 2” tall) consisting of a cat, an owl, a falcon, a horse and a griffon. (5gp each)
08- A pair of silk slippers encrusted with tiny pearls. (95gp)
09- A silver brooch depicting a mage’s tower. (This could be a pass for magical wards at the mage’s tower, at the DM’s discretion.) (12gp)
10- A used, slightly rusted (but usable) double-bladed sword. (60gp)
11- A leather string holding 11 silver shuriken. (2gp each)
12- A small bag of saffron. (22gp)
13- A large copper shield, embossed with a (copper) dragon’s head. “Elvalynte” is inscribed on the interior in a flowing script. (34gp)
14- A battle pennant, triangular in shape, of a black dragon on red silk. The staff is a silver-tipped lance. (Pennant: 30gp, Lance: 25gp)
15- A bandolier holding 8 silver flasks (empty (x3), brandy (x2), acid (x1), ogre blood (x1), gold dust (x1, value of gold: 12gp). (Flasks: 3gp each, bandolier: 5gp, ogre blood (to alchemist): 12gp, acid: 10gp, brandy: 5sp each)
16- An inverted monkey skull filled with silver and gold shavings. (Total value: 13gp)
17- A large tome filled with over one hundred recipes for wild boar, goose, and venison; written by Kilan Wester, a former royal chef (retired). (95gp)
18- A life-sized copper and silver statuette of a cockatrice. (17gp)
19- A leather bag containing 6 green dragon scales (young adult). (5gp each)
20- A two-wheeled cart carrying 48 oak planks. (Cart: 15gp, Planks: 5sp each)
21- A rolled painting, oil on canvas and roughly 36”x44”, depicting the hero Balsallard defeating the Giant-King Maan, painted by Balsallard’s squire at the time, Wespin Condelouche. (60gp)
22- A large (18”x28”), rectangular electrum sheet with ancient writing on it. The writing, if deciphered, is a brief history of a powerful magical item known as the House of Winds, with several clues as to where the item may have been lost fourteen hundred years ago. The House of Winds is described as an ornate mithral helm of legendary power. (75gp)
23- A weapons cabinet, unlocked and immovable, containing: 12 score arrows (1gp/score), 40 javelins (1gp each), 120 crossbow bolts (1sp/each), and a short bow (30gp). (Total value: 94gp)
24- An ironbound chest with an average lock. (55gp)
25- An elaborate, whalebone scrimshaw carving of intertwined orbs, each showing the legend of creation story of one of the seven civilized religions, roughly 10” in diameter. (45gp)
26- A battleaxe of iron sized for a fire giant. (35gp)
27- Studded leather armor made from sharkskin set with iron disks. (44gp)
28- An abacus with copper, silver and gold markers. (100gp)
29- A skeleton trapped in rusting scale mail with eight rotted bolts piercing both the mail and the corpse. (Scale mail: 25gp, usable if repaired by a skilled armorer (cost of repair is 15gp)
30- A finely crafted rug of intricate, geometric designs worked with silver threading. Careful examination (Search DC: 16) reveals an inscription in dwarvish runes laced in the threading: “When the sky boils, the sentinel returns.” The dimensions of the rug are 4ft x 6ft. (50gp)
31- A roughly beaten golden orb, roughly 10 inches in diameter. The orb is etched with the likeness of an orcish skull with an axe embedded in it. This was used by an orcish chieftain as his “royal orb”. (72gp)
32- A miniature (3 inch) silver gauntlet, trimmed in mother-of-pearl. (Could this be a failed spell component in an attempt to improve one of the ‘Hand’ spells? Or, is it the lost gauntlet of a fairy prince? Or, some remnant of a real gauntlet affected by a curse, perhaps?) (25gp)
33- A set of three porcelain ewers in blue flowers on a white field with silver trimming along the rim. A fourth, the largest, is shattered, but the silver is salvageable. (8gp, 12gp, 20gp, 2gp)
34- A large tome bound in thick bison-hide that is a common-orcish language primer, as well as a primer on orcish culture. The author of the primer, Darius Woodherd, seems to have added a lot of information on orcish heraldry and politics, as well. Darius spent almost twenty years amongst the orcs of the north, and eventually married an orc before being killed a score of years ago in a rival tribe’s ambush. Access to this book allows a +2 circumstance check on speaking orcish, knowledge of orcish history and heraldry, and on diplomacy checks when dealing with orcs. (90gp)
35- A pinewood totem pole of the northern barbarians, bearing six faces (from top to bottom): a hawk, a demon, an elk, a man, a fox, and a white dragon. The hawk has a silver feather on the left side of its face (8gp), the demon has a gold nose-ring (6gp), the elk has copper antlers (4gp), the man has electrum eyes (3gp each), the fox has a black onyx nose (15gp), and the dragon has ivory teeth (30 teeth worth 1gp each). The pole is fifteen feet tall and weighs 200 pounds. (4.57m, 90.7kg)
36- A pair of stuffed ermines, poised as if listening, mounted on a rough oak plank. (Pelts: 20gp each)
37- A rapier in an ornate, electrum-trimmed steel scabbard worked in swirl-patterns. (Rapier: 20gp, Scabbard: 45gp)
38- 4 ceramic canopic jars, holding the stomach, intestines, lungs, and liver of a long-ago monarch. Each has a golden lid with a likeness of a paunchy, hook-nosed man with pale skin and a squint. (20gp each)
39- A miniature golden chest with tiny emeralds lining the top that trace out a mage’s sigil. The chest is crafted in exquisite detail. (This is the material component of a “Secret Chest” (from the spell of the same name) for the ruthless lady-mage Aumurille, who will likely want it back....) (75gp)
40- Six stuffed wolfhounds with black leather collars set with white onyx. (Collars: 10gp each)
41- Two spools of delicate threading; one of silver and the other made of gold. (Silver: 5gp, Gold: 25gp)
42- A finely crafted steel trident wrapped in sharkskin. Four rows of shark teeth line the shaft just below the tines and three small holy symbols of a water-demon cult are etched in the steel near the butt end. (33gp)
43- A dwarven holy symbol in silver; shaped into a flaming war-hammer set against an anvil-shaped backdrop. (55gp)
44- A collection of 6 wigs in varying lengths and hues on wooden head-shaped molds. The third (a curly green-haired piece that falls well past the shoulders) has a silver and pearl hairclip. (Wigs: 2gp each, hairclip: 42gp)
45- A brightly colored maple-wood case filled with an assortment of cheap, costume jewelry and makeup. Tucked away in a latched interior compartment is a paper flyer advertising “Gammul’s Traveling Troupe – Magicians! Acrobats! Dancers! Players! See the finest entertainers in seven lands!” (14gp for the lot)
46- A single, platinum skeleton-key on a platinum ring. The key is finely crafted, with a delicate design etched in elvish characters along the length and across the bow. (37gp)
47- A pair of blacksmith’s puzzle; each has a pair of interlocked iron designs that users try to take apart and put back together. (8gp, 12gp; Intelligence DC: 12 and DC: 14 check to solve (the second puzzle is harder than the first), which can be repeated every 10 minutes of working on the puzzle until solved.)
48- A spell component pouch (worth 5gp) containing: 6 pieces of cured leather (Mage Armor), 2 small replicas of an archery target (True Strike), A small piece of silk (Magic Aura), some sand (Sleep), 2 small pouches of gold dust (25gp each, Arcane Lock), some talc and powdered silver (1gp, See Invisibility), and 3 pieces of gum Arabic with eyelashes embedded in them (Invisibility).
49- A detailed rose, with petals and thorns, constructed of silver and electrum. (40gp)
50- A brown and red flecked egg, about the size of a loaf of bread, that gives off a rancid scent. (Troglodyte egg, worth 50gp to an interested alchemist, wizard, or university)
51- A crude, tarnished silver skullcap with three round-cut lapis lazuli set in a triangle. (88gp)
52- A delicate brass dragon egg; hollowed out and painted into a seascape, resting on a wooden stand. (35gp)
53- A collection of 6 elephant tusks. (2x12gp, 4x10gp)
54- A female gnome’s head, largely rotting, with an electrum and peridot nose ring. (66gp)
55- A scimitar with a gold and snakeskin hilt set with a citrine. (100gp)
56- A pair of steel flasks, sealed with wax bearing the symbol of St. Cuthbert. (Holy water, 25gp each)
57- A standard wizard’s spell-book with 100 pages. The first five pages hold the following spells (one per page): Arcane Mark, Light, Open/Close, Mending, and Disrupt Undead. (85gp)
58- A bright green cap of ettercap silk lined in black linen. (15gp)
59- A frost giant necklace of silver upon which are pierced 17 human-sized hands (all right hands). (Necklace: 55gp)
60- A large, four-post bed of mahogany with golden silk draperies. There is no mattress, pillows, or blankets. (90gp)
61- A mounted boar head wearing a thick golden necklace. (The head is actually that of a rakshasa, and radiates evil and illusion/transmutation to detection magic.) (45gp)
62- An ettin-hide cape, dyed blue, with a silver clasp shaped into a pair of malformed faces. (28gp)
63- A purple-colored apple. (This enchanted apple has all the properties of a potion of Cure Light Wounds. 50gp)
64- A carved wooden mantle, meant to be mounted above a fireplace, crafted of ash-wood and stained a medium brown. The left side is carved in images of demons and flames, the right in images of angels and air. The top is carved into an idyllic forest theme and has a moon above the left corner and a sun above the right. This piece weights just over a hundred pounds. (65gp)
65- A pair of tarnished silver horseshoes, possibly from the Lake Terrace wererat troubles of ten years ago. (12gp each)
66- A large crystal vase, silver trimmed, with a dozen dead roses and some stagnant water within. (14gp)
67- A wicker basket with a pair of mink furs within. (20gp each)
68- A large, wrought-iron sign crafted to read: “Beware of Wyvern” in a bold script. The sign weighs 80 pounds. (70gp)
69- A silver statuette depicting entwined triton lovers. (50gp)
70- A 3’ square replica of a castle, in wood, complete with ramparts and miniature ballistae and toy soldiers. Scribbled in some spots are notes written in draconic that suggest a plan to assault the castle (“Kill guard here first”, “Murder holes overhead”, Fireball this area”, etc…).It weighs 120 pounds. (65gp)
71- A leather vest with climbing gear: 12 iron pitons, a hammer, 50’ of silk rope, a grappling hook, a set of bronze crampons, thick leather gloves, and a leather harness seat. (32gp for all)
72- Four cat skeletons, each wearing an identical collar; black leather set with a small tourmaline. (10gp each)
73- A large bronze wardrobe, banded in steel, which contains Violet Fungi (hp 15) and a human body with rotting noble’s clothing, a rusty dagger, and a thin platinum bracelet set with a moonstone. (75gp)
74- A rolled and oiled cloth sail sized for a warship’s main mast; dyed green and tied with rope. (60gp)
75- A large pile of dismantled copper pipes covered in mold and verdigris; roughly 140 pounds. (35gp)
76- A life-size basalt statue of a raven. (25gp)
77- A masquerade mask crafted of leather and peacock feathers. (12gp)
78- A crude altar of white granite, bloodstained, with a streak of gold ore running through it. The altar weights 300 pounds. (75gp)
79- A silver hand mirror with mother-of-pearl backing. (28gp)
80- A horse sleigh capable of seating four people comfortably. The leather has dry rot and must be replaced before being useable. (30gp)
81- Seven lengths of extremely thick, 30’ long, hemp rope, such as that used for catapults. (5gp each)
82- A granite fountain designed to look like a school of brightly colored fish cresting sea waves. The fish are bedecked in colored glass, silver, and copper scales. Water coming out of the six ‘above-water’ fish is designed to be tinted to the colors of the rainbow by the colored glass. (1355 colored glass scales: 1cp each, 245 copper scales: 2cp each, 245 silver scales: 2sp each. The fountain is valued at 100gp if the entire thing can be moved.)
83- A silver-headed heavy mace, the head of which is shaped into the likeness of a ram’s head. (90gp)
84- A tower shield of bronze, cast into the likeness of a chimera’s heads and enameled to provide the appropriate colors. (85gp)
85- An ivory-colored robe of fine wool which is capable of bursting into illusory flames once a day for up to one minute. The command word, “Fladarro”, is stitched in red thread on the left sleeve. (100gp)
86- A lovely ivory-colored dress of silk with flowing sleeves. The dress has tiny pearls sewn at the neckline. (70gp)
87- A pair of blue enameled steel spiked gauntlets. The palms of both gauntlets are designed to display the Cambersome family crest, a stylized ‘C’ shaped into the likeness of a coiled serpent. (90gp)
88- A baby rattle crafted of silver. (10gp)
89- A merchant’s leather case containing a selection of twenty well-made daggers of varying designs. (2gp each)
90- A brass chamber pot in which has been hidden 3 pieces of rosy quartz. (Chamber pot: 3sp, rosy quartz: 4gp, 7gp, 12gp)
91- An iron tomb plaque (for setting on a tomb to identify its occupant), that has rusted away to reveal a hollow space within, in which is a rolled scroll of very thin, beaten gold. The scroll is etched in an ancient language (“The treasure of the Wavestar is secured in the cave of the cove.”), and has a crude map showing a coastline with unknown markings (star readings for ships). Research can find that the Wavestar was a merchant ship that was presumably lost at sea over a hundred years ago. (80gp for the scroll)
92- A mithril-headed branding-iron bearing the sigil of the Manticora Trading House. (100gp)
93- An electrum drow house-medallion bearing the image of a crimson scorpion with the house name inscribed on the back in the drow tongue (House Ulrather). (20gp)
94- A small cedar cask of dwarven pipe tobacco. (25gp)
95- A small wooden case holding four pairs of fairy wings. (4gp per pair to an alchemist, wizard, or university)
96- A cross-section of an ancient goldenbough tree, roughly a foot thick, which has been meticulously carved into a three-dimensional map of the terrain of the kingdom with major cities, castles, and ports marked accurate to about forty years ago. The whole weighs in at three hundred pounds. (50gp)
97- A (non-magical) crystal ball that radiates divination magic if detected for. (15gp)
98- A large pile of coal. Two small, rough diamonds are hidden near the bottom. (20gp, 25gp)
99- An iron flask holding a viscous liquid of intense, emerald-green that smells faintly of citrus fruit. The liquid is a concentrated, magical dye for clothing and the like, equal to four full barrels of normal dye. If consumed, it turns the drinker green for a full month. (65gp)
100- A crude bone rod made from a goblin’s femur and set with a cracked jet stone lashed to the rod with cartilage. (A former ‘wand of bestow curse’ used by a goblin witch-doctor, now drained of charges. 20gp)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 27, 2017, 09:42:48 pm

Pathfinder's Bestiary 6 came out. Lots of new stuff that likely won't see use, as usual, like the Player Races.

Two are reprints, the Monkey Goblin and the Munavri. One's a Fey made of water. One's a wolfman. One's an alien aberration. And a bit OP, I think.

I also got Heroes of the Darklands, but I don't like much of anything in it. A bit disappointed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 27, 2017, 11:31:31 pm

Yeah, Munavri are OP. There's a specific line in the header about building Munavri characters that they count as 1 CR higher. So I guess Pathfinder is officially doing LA +1 races now?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 27, 2017, 11:44:26 pm

I guess. Unusually powerful races aren't new, though I don't think they were given CR adjustments before.

Drow Nobles and the weird stuff in the back of the Advanced Race Guide are proof enough of that which is not meant to be playable. Though since then, we've gotten stuff like Duergar Tyrants, Azlanti, and Shobhads. I would have thought the Tyrant would have been in B6, since a large chunk of the Occult Bestiary made it in.

There's also rules for playing as a monster. Their level is equal to their CR, IIRC. You can also acquire a monstrous ally through Leadership, but level to obtain a Monster Cohort seems all over the place. I can't figure out if there is a formula or if it's just arbitrarily chosen numbers.

Yaddithians are an odd new race though. Aberrations with rather powerful but oddly niche abilities. No need to breathe and can play prepared spellcasters without a book/Familiar/other spell receptacle. They also get a +2 bonus to all Knowledges and Spellcraft, which is a hell of a boon.

The Planar Dragons and the various demigods are awesome though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on April 28, 2017, 01:51:48 am

Planar Dragons?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 28, 2017, 03:46:07 am

After 70 years of mostly menial service, and a disastrous clusterfuck of a first mission, I was judged worthy of commanding a squad (by dint of selfless loyalty and, barely, surviving) (also, the local Invictus are clearly getting desperate).  A WW2 medic, a Southern Belle, and a blind kung-fu mistress walk into knock politely at the door of a hunter conspiracy.  "Is this some kind of a joke?"  *sound of guns loading*

Hunters are *hardcore*, especially with preparation time.  Still mortals, but with strength of numbers and horrific strength of conviction.
In the end, we killed more hunters than they killed.

No, sic- they had a *serious* friendly fire issue.  Literally, at the end.
When all they have is large numbers of somewhat crazy people, facing supernatural abominations, they do as they must.

Our Belle did very well initially.  Realizing that negotiations had failed, she announced her intention to defend herself.  Turns out that modern drum-fed shotguns are effective at clearing doors and hallways.  Fully automatic fire requires a lot of strength to retain accuracy- supernatural strength, one might say.

Our blind martial artist (a horrifying fish-nosferatu with a severe allergy to light) also did very well.  She was the only reason we weren't cut down by a particularly ridiculous katana-and-wakazashi weeaboo.  Sounds ridiculous, but swords work better than bullets against kindred.  And he had some absolutely bullshit merits, apparently, such that he sliced apart a rifle round dead-on to his head, and managed to cut up the belle despite the shrapnel grazing his skull (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM33Hr94SKw)
The martial artist and I eventually managed to surround and tackle him, though.  You know the hand-blades rogues use in Diablo 2?  Well, rest assured, the "hand-claws" meme in our gaming group is still going strong.  Because it keeps working.

The belle went mindlessly hungry from her wounds, until we managed to hold down a "vessel" for her.  My character was hungry too, soooo very hungry...  But 70 years teaches restraint.  My character's beast is a starved, sad thing, which has only once in all that time tasted human blood.
And that human was "sanitizing" her precious sewer, see.  Still, that one taste was... distracting.

Such is the kind of digression which attempts to subvert a vampiric mind, lapsing it into a feral state.  Giving into the beast.  Not my character.  And so, when the fricken Flammenwerfer emerged from the sideroom, we were reasonably ready...  As much as vampires can be, when faced with a liter of distilled HATE.  Holding a flamethrower.
(The DMPC's ashes flowed out the doorway.  A classy 50's gangster who kept calling us dames - bizarrely, in the previous chronicle, our Malkavian had him as one of her random personalities.  But now they both know final death)

I ordered retreat.  The belle was not listening, but ran anyway, a feral beast fleeing from the hateful flame.  I slammed the door on the fire, but late...  My clothes ignited, and dry skin.  I ran down the interior hallway, ripping off smouldering cloth and slapping at my crisp burning flesh, leaving a trail of dust.  Despite nearly draining my willpower reserves to remain sane and put myself out, I did manage to do so... just.  Large chunks of my body and arms were missing, and I was a handful of blood away from mindless hunger, but the line was held.

Showing even greater presence of mind, our martial artist actually jammed a door shut on our way out.  Here's hoping the firebat burned in there- he did burn several of his wounded allies in his zeal to kill us.  They are barbaric and desperate.


PS:  It turned out that that region was overrun because my ancient sire never plugged in his phone, so he failed to keep in touch with his nemesis (the Mekhet primogen).  This was all a failure to communicate.  Still, risking the lives of neonates over trivial nonsense is kinda how neonates advance...  Beats 70 years of maid-work.
Eating rats is fine, though.  Eleanor likes being a cat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 08:29:35 am

Got burnt out from stress, so I'm a player next session (girlfriend offered to run, but I don't think she has the confidence to do so). There's so much 5e content for players out right now in UA, that I don't know what to pick. I wanted to roll artificer, but they don't seem to be as awesome this time around...

Thinking hexblade warlock, goblin cleric (shoutout to those who know where Im going with that), or something else I have forgotten that's in the UA

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 28, 2017, 03:18:33 pm

Quote from: scriver on April 28, 2017, 01:51:48 am

Planar Dragons?

Yea, extraplanar dragons. Five of them, with four for each of the corner alignments and one for true neutral. Paradise Dragons come from Heaven, Havoc Dragons are from Nirvana, Crypt Dragons live in the Boneyard, Infernal Dragons are found in Hell, and Rift Dragons dwell in the Abyss.

They're all the same CR, and I believe they are the highest CR of all the True Dragons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 28, 2017, 03:46:27 pm

Don't forget the Brine Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/primal-brine/)! Real salt & vinegar type, that one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on April 28, 2017, 05:41:02 pm

I was going to say that!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2017, 05:49:52 pm

Quote from: scriver on April 28, 2017, 05:41:02 pm

I was going to say that!

You still can, or you can be extra witty and add onto it.

Ehhh I prefer all dressed dragons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 28, 2017, 06:04:30 pm

Puns. Puns everywhere.

I guess the Primal Dragons are also Planar, in their way. Found in the Elemental Planes rather often, at least.

But if anyone has questions about Bestiary 6 or Heroes of the Darklands, I can help out, if they want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 07:10:29 pm

It's pretty bad when I say "I like my dragons how I like my chips" and it just comes out to Regular, that's pretty sad.

not that it matters since I'm not too keen on pathfinder anyway.

Meanwhile, in 5e, I'm still waiting when they'll announce PHB2. So many new archetypes, feats, races, and more added, they would surprise me if they DIDNT do it.

Im also waiting for the release of 5e tomb of horrors. My girlfriend has been begging me to run it, not knowing what it actually is

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2017, 07:15:43 pm

5e desperately needs bloat, as silly as that sounds.

I know I am someone who can never have enough bloat... but come on! there is such a thing as too little.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 07:27:46 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 28, 2017, 07:15:43 pm

5e desperately needs bloat, as silly as that sounds.

I know I am someone who can never have enough bloat... but come on! there is such a thing as too little.

Define bloat in this case.

Also, what we need for 5e is the return of the elementalist. So much potential now!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2017, 08:07:00 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 07:27:46 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on April 28, 2017, 07:15:43 pm

5e desperately needs bloat, as silly as that sounds.

I know I am someone who can never have enough bloat... but come on! there is such a thing as too little.

Define bloat in this case.

Also, what we need for 5e is the return of the elementalist. So much potential now!

I mean stuff... Classes + Archtypes, monsters, magic items, FEATS...

A few weapon types feel ENTIRELY screwed over as far as getting their greater versions (beyond just "Magic +1" or "Magic +3")... I mean I know people can just use whatever weapon they find... but I like the characterization involved. Plus Swords get WAAAAAAY too many! (They have what? 6-8 legendary weapons now?).

It is actually at the point where I honestly use Adventure Paths more for their monster and magic item sections than anything else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 08:25:37 pm

They need feats and magic items mostly. Last UA added racial feats. It makes sense there are less feats because it's every 4 levels and replaces ability score ups.

I also want to see more classes and less archetypes. Artificer being its own class is a step in the right direction

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2017, 08:39:12 pm

To admit I am probably one of the few GMs who prefer to use new monsters to make sure that there is something unique about the monsters in every location (as well as stringing along a general yet specific theme) instead of just using the same, but iconic and familiar, monsters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 28, 2017, 08:47:20 pm

Lots of monsters to play around with is always nice, though there's always the risk of ending up with creatures that no-one ever uses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2017, 09:04:22 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on April 28, 2017, 08:47:20 pm

Lots of monsters to play around with is always nice, though there's always the risk of ending up with creatures that no-one ever uses.

Well we already have those in 5e :P

A huge pile of them too >_>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on April 28, 2017, 11:15:28 pm

*MC has only ever read the PHB for 5e*

I need to actually find things...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 11:22:54 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on April 28, 2017, 11:15:28 pm

*MC has only ever read the PHB for 5e*

I need to actually find things...

I highly recommend a read through Volo's Guide to Monsters if you can find a readable version online.

the unearthed arcana is on their site

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on April 28, 2017, 11:51:10 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 11:22:54 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on April 28, 2017, 11:15:28 pm

*MC has only ever read the PHB for 5e*

I need to actually find things...

I highly recommend a read through Volo's Guide to Monsters if you can find a readable version online.

the unearthed arcana is on their site

I recall unearthed arcana being a bunch of ridiculous bullshit in 3.5.
Did they make it playable this time?

...I need a computer...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on April 29, 2017, 12:00:37 am

Unearthed Arcana in 5e is basically... things they want to add later so they are play testing it.

It HAS lead to some insanity such as a player race with such potent darkvision that they puts magic to shame... Heck it puts normal vision to shame (Luckily the full version removes two of the problem races... to the extent where I wonder if they were official in the first place)

Another race that was removed was also... well... broken (as in the rules governing them weren't functional. It wasn't too good or too problematic... It just relied on rules that don't yet exist in the game)

Kind of interesting how of the four meant to be added... only one made it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 29, 2017, 04:36:07 am

Quote from: mastahcheese on April 28, 2017, 11:51:10 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on April 28, 2017, 11:22:54 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on April 28, 2017, 11:15:28 pm

*MC has only ever read the PHB for 5e*

I need to actually find things...

I highly recommend a read through Volo's Guide to Monsters if you can find a readable version online.

the unearthed arcana is on their site

I recall unearthed arcana being a bunch of ridiculous bullshit in 3.5.
Did they make it playable this time?

...I need a computer...

Some of the UA is good. Other bits of it are horribly broken, so for consistency it might be easiest to stick to PHB and Volo's guide etc.

To be fair the classes in the PHB are quite good, so its not like your game would really suffer if you only permitted that material.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 29, 2017, 04:43:24 am

I'm waiting for the PHBII for 5E to come out so I can see how they managed to balance the Mystic, it looked quite interesting but also a bit broken in the UA. That and a few more archetypes for everything, stuff like Storm Sorcerer and Bladesinger were cool and even some of the divine reflavorings of regular classes were cool (such as the Zealot Barbarian, which though mechanically not very impressive is such a cool concept).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 29, 2017, 08:06:44 am

Bladesinger was officially released in Sword Coast Adventure guide. I think storm sorcerer might be there too

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on April 29, 2017, 09:23:30 am

Personally I suspect we're not going to get a PHBII, but bits of content scattered through other books like the subclasses in SCAG or the monstrous races in Volo's.

But yeah, UA is a tad hit and miss regards balance, which is kinda the point to be fair :P That said, there's also some really cool stuff for inspiration in there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on April 29, 2017, 10:22:09 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on April 29, 2017, 09:23:30 am

Personally I suspect we're not going to get a PHBII, but bits of content scattered through other books like the subclasses in SCAG or the monstrous races in Volo's.

But yeah, UA is a tad hit and miss regards balance, which is kinda the point to be fair :P That said, there's also some really cool stuff for inspiration in there.

They have too much playtest material due to releasing one new UA every week a month or two ago. Had new stuff for every class, plus a few other things.

It will more than likely be a PHB2; too much content for how little the Sword Coast Adventute Guide holds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 29, 2017, 10:14:45 pm

Another game night. Tried to liberate a labour camp, but it was full of mounted knights, and just way too fortified for us to actually stand a chance.

We went back to the inn, but couldn't sleep due to some scratching at the floorboards. After some searching, we found the entrance to the cellar. My dumb ass fell down the stairs, and in the basement was a Shredskin. Rather than deal with it, we let it out. Cue the innkeeper flipping shit and demanding we go find and kill it before it kills someone.

After, we went to go find allies to help us with the freeing of the town. Following rumours, we find a cave in the hills nearby. There's demons within, and we find a hidden chamber filled with dominated thralls. A summon attempt went awry, apparently.

Afterwords, a Contract Devil appeared. He explained that the demons were a result of a contract gone wrong, then offered us a contract each. The Gunslinger asked to be a Vampire, the Fighter wants to become half-dragon, I want to be a Graveknight, the Summoner doesn't want anything, the Bard was unable to play this session, and the DMPC is played rather hands-off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on April 29, 2017, 11:46:35 pm

Contract Devil, eh? I hope you read the fine print. It's usually not good news.

In my campaign, I also recently introduced Contract Devils as part of the large city of Asmodeus worshippers my group are exploring. They openly run shops where you can go and obtain wishes. Of course, the contract is pre-written in black ink on a black piece of parchment.

Anyway, all my players know me too well to fall for that. They went and fought a pack of hellhounds chasing some escaped slaves, delved into the mine where the slaves were hiding, bypassed the puzzle room and disarmed the trap, then fought the elder earth elemental and freed the slaves.

As a reward, they were told to meet their NPC contact at dawn, a vigilante named the Silver Falcon. He took them on a chase sequence through the city to raid the temple of the records of the slaves, finding the details of one character's enslaved mother and another character's enslaved brother. They burned the archive to the ground on their escape, and the vigilante revealed himself to be one of the two brothers they're searching for.

So now the group's going to have a choice to make next session. They can either aid the uprising that's going to occur now the slave contracts have been destroyed, or they can flee. I'm gonna have to prep the mass combat rules for them if they plan to fight, but if they win it'll mean they deal the devil-worshipping nation a big blow, taking out one of their critical trade cities.

Of course, since it's a location of pretty significant importance, the Asmodeans will probably send whatever they can spare to defend it. I figure a series of five encounters should deal with the outcome in one session. First a mass combat with the freed slaves vs. the local city guard, then a tactical combat with the party vs. elite guards, then vs. devil guards, a second mass combat vs. reinforcements to defend the city, then a tactical combat vs. a boss devil and his minions that teleport into the city.

I'm just wondering if that's too much combat, but I can't really think of anything else that would suit besieging a city. Anyone have any experience or suggestions about alternative events that might occur where a group leads an army to assault a city other than a straight up combat encounter?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on April 29, 2017, 11:56:54 pm

We're being cut a bit of slack for these contracts. Or at least, we're supposed to be, according to the AP. The Devils, and Cheliax in general, are in need of our help in liberating this town. Rather than fine print to screw us over, we just return the favour by offering souls as payment. The book's default recommendation is 400 souls in return for an army of Bearded Devils to help us take back the town, apparently.

I haven't actually read anything story-related in the book, so I'm not 100% certain if the DM's making an ass-pull. I did check the encounter table though, and there is no Silver Dragon in there. Nor were there Pegasi or Cavalier Centaurs.

Can't think of any alternatives for a combat for your siege, unfortunately. I don't think I've seen or played one run in any way other than Mass Combat or the party facing down a ton of enemies. Mass Combat's boring though, as it's usually just one player with Profession (Soldier) doing everything as everyone else is stuck watching.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on April 30, 2017, 12:02:57 am

We finished the first book of the Carrion Crown. We fought the last, and biggest haunt in the book. CR 8. A really long, but pretty interesting fight. I broke a secret door lock last session. Like reall gud. I missed my disable device roll by 10. It was cover by this stone faccade. And we had some mine picks, and broke through the faccade. Then ended up paying for a restore spell, for 150 to open it up. Turned out to be a armory. With quite a lot of masterwork armor and weapons. Which was great, as we've been so poor this game. Replaced my studded leather armor with masterwork studded leather armor. The cleric, got a mastercraft heavycross bow and +1 bolts.

So the fight was in two forms. The first form, was an entire room. When we went into the room, the Haunt, was stealing parts of a soul, and his schtick was writing names. So as we stood in the room, the names would appear on the wall. We got these one time flasks that are meant to hurt and trap haunts.  And we used that to take it out. What we were suppose to do, is attack our names on the wall. This was completly lost on the entire party. We were pretty stumped. So after that, it turned out this was a load bearing boss, and the room that the words were happening collopsed. Then the Haunt ghostly body showed up. And it played whack a mole with us and shot us with magic arrow. And they also summed various monsters. We had the Haunt Deathnote, and after it ghost body showed up, we started to tear out pages, which seem to be effective. One PC totally died by the RAW. Their HP, went negative equal to the Con. I manage to get the last blow, by being able to shot into melee with a ghost touch arrow. Narrowly, we almost lost. The GM was kind and let me add in my sneak attack dice, to my arrow strike when it was the next person turn. I manage to roll max damage. Heh. During the fight, this summoned animal thing, a dire rat or spider, had like 4 hp left, and I was using my Suli elemental strike feature, and di like 22 damage to it. Just fucking murder the shit out of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on April 30, 2017, 04:51:12 am

The tabletop gaming club at my uni had a Tomb of Horrors competition, which I just got back from. A bunch of different teams were all racing to see who could get the farthest in the recently released 5e version of the Tomb. I went with a couple of friends, and we got placed with three other randoms, but that mostly worked out. I played a cleric, where my job was primarily to stand behind the rogue, applying Guidance, and performing the Help action as they searched for traps and secret doors. We moved very, very, very slowly through the dungeon, and spent about 45 minutes before we even went 15 feet into the dungeon proper, after almost dying to a false entrance. We found a secret door early on, which led to Dart Hell, which took us about an hour to get through. Somehow, all six of us managed to survive that, with the rogue only dying for a second, before the DM realized that spikes do not insta-kill. We started to pick up the pace, as we got a better sense of how the dungeon was designed, and how to watch out for death traps, speeding through the orb room, avoiding the gear stealing teleportation door many other groups fell into, practically ignoring the chapel (except for the fact that our barbarian did walk into the gender/alignment changing mist), and only TPKing in a pit of lava. We were down to our last hour by that point, so we were moving really fast, and weren't being as thorough as we should have been. We only had two combat encounters, and, as tenth level characters, we managed to absolutely shit on both of them, which was a lot of fun, but the traps were the real 'killers'. IIRC, our fighter took about 100+ damage from traps alone, especially darts..
All in all, we didn't win, but we did tie for second when it came to distance, but we got penalized for TPKing, which left us in a solid third place, only a few rooms behind the group in first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Necrothurge on April 30, 2017, 05:26:33 am

I'm running a tabletop god game over on the Forum Games subforum: The Titan Age (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163933.msg7437837#msg7437837)

Still desperately looking for players. :|

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on May 01, 2017, 05:21:21 am

Quote from: highmax28 on April 29, 2017, 10:22:09 am

Quote from: sjm9876 on April 29, 2017, 09:23:30 am

They have too much playtest material due to releasing one new UA every week a month or two ago. Had new stuff for every class, plus a few other things.

It will more than likely be a PHB2; too much content for how little the Sword Coast Adventute Guide holds

Fair point. Still, to rephrase, I imagine any PHB2 would be quite a while off yet given the big UA push has only just come to a close.

And just had my 3 year long campaign come to a close last night. Somehow managed to stave off the exhaustion in order to deliver a well received epilogue hour, but yeah. The rogue has become a Duchess of the Nine Hells, the Sorcerer became a Dragon, the Barbarian joined a nomadic Githyanki warship (as cook), the Warlock became a Lich to delay his death so that his soul would never go to the Far Realms as he had a contract with an Eldritch Horror, and the Ranger spent the rest of his days fishing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 01, 2017, 05:37:21 am

Quote

before the DM realized that spikes do not insta-kill.

I'd criticize the DM but the tomb of horror is chalked full of total bs like that.

Mind you... of all the overdesigned overly deadly dungeons... It is the one that makes the most sense to be that way.

Assuming I am thinking of the right dungeon (which I might not be).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 01, 2017, 09:28:11 am

Tomb of Horrors is only chock-full of instant death items that RAW actually kill you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 01, 2017, 09:30:12 am

Quote from: TheBiggerFish on May 01, 2017, 09:28:11 am

Tomb of Horrors is only chock-full of instant death items that RAW actually kill you.

Ohh... I guess I got the wrong dungeon.

I am thinking of the one created by Vecna and the description of how it resets the traps and treasure is some of the most hilariously overblown devices in the series.

It also features quite a few instant no-save deaths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on May 01, 2017, 02:42:12 pm

to be fair, the original Tomb of Horrors had a demilich in the treasure room as the final trap.

Disturb the bejeweled skull, fight a monter that could only be killed with an adamantine vorpal longsword.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 01, 2017, 03:23:37 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 01, 2017, 05:37:21 am

I'd criticize the DM but the tomb of horror is chalked full of total bs like that.

Wait, what does chalked full mean?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on May 01, 2017, 03:30:42 pm

It's a common malapropism for "chock full of".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 01, 2017, 08:18:23 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on May 01, 2017, 02:42:12 pm

to be fair, the original Tomb of Horrors had a demilich in the treasure room as the final trap.

Disturb the bejeweled skull, fight a monter that could only be killed with an adamantine vorpal longsword.

There are so many reasons why Vorpal shouldn't work :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 02, 2017, 10:02:25 am

And to think my girlfriend still wants me to run a tomb of horrors game translated to 5e...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Mephisto on May 02, 2017, 10:30:57 am

Quote from: highmax28 on May 02, 2017, 10:02:25 am

And to think my girlfriend still wants me to run a tomb of horrors game translated to 5e...

I'd mention Tales of the Yawning Portal but I suspect Tomb of Horrors gets less lethal every time it's updated to a new edition.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 02, 2017, 04:12:57 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on May 02, 2017, 10:30:57 am

Quote from: highmax28 on May 02, 2017, 10:02:25 am

And to think my girlfriend still wants me to run a tomb of horrors game translated to 5e...

I'd mention Tales of the Yawning Portal but I suspect Tomb of Horrors gets less lethal every time it's updated to a new edition.

To admit though 4e was meant to remove instant kills (and honestly the way it did so... actually was waaay more interesting then 3.5s) and 5e added them back but gave them conditions.

So a lot of the Tomb of Horror's (If I am thinking of the right one) save or die and other "unfair" mechanics wouldn't fly.

Or rather... Tomb of Horror is getting easier because the rules are getting less arbitrarily set against the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: heydude6 on May 02, 2017, 04:23:15 pm

I posted this in gaming block already but due to a lack of replies (they probably thought it was an interest check), I'll post it here.

I was working on an RtD for a while before I scrapped it, realizing that it was just an inferior version Shadowrun (though a bit simpler). With this in mind I was thinking: maybe I should run a Shadowrun game on this forum?

Now I'm not posting here to gauge interest (I'd find that out after posting the OP), I'm just here to ask seasoned players if that is a terrible idea or not. This would be my first time GMing Shadowrun and I've only had a little experience actually playing the game. I'd probably just use the core rulebook at first, but then allow splatbooks as the campaign progressed to minimize initial complexity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 02, 2017, 05:23:39 pm

...How much do you like overhead?  I'm not joking when I say that preparing a single 'run' could take most of a week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: kilakan on May 02, 2017, 05:43:57 pm

I don't really think it's a particularly great idea to attempt to GM a game that you have little to no experience with.  It'll just ruin your own sanity very quickly trying to keep up and learn everything.  That, and shadowrun with just the core book is actually pretty lackluster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on May 02, 2017, 05:47:32 pm

Shadowrun is a very mixed bag of systems, with a balance that can be... schizophrenic to say this least. (Granted, I'm remember this from some old books, so newer editions probably fix many issues.)

Personally, I'd tell you to run a fairly standard rules-lite RTD basis, then tear of Shadowrun's skin and wear it as your own. You get to steal all the good bits of lore and argot without muddling it terribly with its... interesting take of mechanics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: heydude6 on May 02, 2017, 05:50:38 pm

Thanks for all of the helpful advice, I'll just keep working on my original rtd then.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 02, 2017, 06:55:44 pm

Quote from: Draignean on May 02, 2017, 05:47:32 pm

Shadowrun is a very mixed bag of systems, with a balance that can be... schizophrenic to say this least. (Granted, I'm remember this from some old books, so newer editions probably fix many issues.)

The WEIRDEST thing about Shadowrun is it very much has a "Long term vs. Short term characters"

You really could decide to become super duper powered right from the start.

And there are DEFINATELY character builds that are so overwhelmingly Late Game that they usually never pay off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Mephisto on May 02, 2017, 07:43:56 pm

According to a Shadowrun campaign I follow, the English 5e books are kind of crap. The German version was laid out by a different company and is much better. Their running joke is running the German version through Google Translate would result in a more pleasant gaming experience.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 02, 2017, 08:00:31 pm

I've not read it in great detail, but I do remember that it does not mention the carrying capacities of the vehicles, but does have rules for what happens if a vehicle is overloaded, and how much weight each seat can hold if storage space has run out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 05, 2017, 03:08:04 pm

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164017.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164017.0)

Well I started my Play by Post.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 05, 2017, 07:23:00 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 28, 2017, 03:46:07 am

After 70 years of mostly menial service, and a disastrous clusterfuck of a first mission, I was judged worthy of commanding a squad (by dint of selfless loyalty and, barely, surviving) (also, the local Invictus are clearly getting desperate).  A WW2 medic, a Southern Belle, and a blind kung-fu mistress walk into knock politely at the door of a hunter conspiracy.  "Is this some kind of a joke?"  [snip]
It turned out that that region was overrun because my ancient sire never plugged in his phone, so he failed to keep in touch with his nemesis (the Mekhet primogen).  This was all a failure to communicate.  Still, risking the lives of neonates over trivial nonsense is kinda how neonates advance...  Beats 70 years of maid-work.
Eating rats is fine, though.  Eleanor likes being a cat.

Eleanor's sire went off (taking the car) presumably to duel his kismesis.  But not before giving her orders to attack an identified hunter stronghold and, specifically, kill them all.
We avoided humanity loss last session by attempting diplomacy with the vampire hunters...  But it's so obviously total war, that that won't work again :P

We tried to prepare without seeing the building, which was a mistake.  To be fair, though, we were all embraced before 1930.  We can barely use phones, much less Google.  Still, we did adopt a couple of ghouls...  a disturbing process, even with certain parts skimmed over.
That did involve a nice long social scene in a weird poetry club, though.  Eleanor sat down at an occupied table and stared patiently until acknowledged.  Then offered her poetry for criticism:

Spoiler: Object d'art (click to show/hide)

Cats are wonderful creatures. They are graceful, beautiful, and better than people in every way. Sometimes I dream I am a cat, and there are rats everywhere. Some of the best things about cats are [rest of the page is a bulleted list]
[Other side is the rest of the list] Dogs are awful.

Having long lost the ability to read social cues, she assumed they liked it so much they had to leave.  Then sit down at another table.  She continued observing them, hoping to learn more.
Our nosferatu wore a burka, and- actually nevermind, less said about that, the better.  Or about our belle acquiring her ghoul.


The rest of the session (took a break writing this post) was an incredibly vicious battle.  The original point of this post, in fact.  I'm not going into detail, but just saying...  It was incredibly rough.  It was basically a suicide mission.  One of the players really wanted to just leave, and I would have too, except that my character had sworn a vitae-oath to never fail her sire again.

And said sire had specifically ordered the death of all the hunters inside.  My character, the "squad leader", had to do everything possible to accomplish that.  OOC I was quiet, others pushed that player to stick around.
IC, I was ready to whisper to Julia's beast, and induce a rage frenzy.  I never revealed that card until now, heh.

Regardless...  It was very close.  Towards the end we had to "flee" and ambush.  And at the very end, we all frenzied.  Even my character Eleanor for the very first time.  She had eight dice, kinda designed not to frenzy, but RNG chose this moment.  All composure was thrown aside, and we were the monsters they expected.  And skipping over gory details, we did win.

Eleanor did *intentionally* unleash her beast in the aftermath, chasing down a straggler.  Because when you've had nothing but rat blood for ~50 years, and your sire orders you into a suicide mission on pain of death, maybe you treat yourself just a little bit.

a reckoning is not to be postponed indefinitely

Her beast is an emaciated creature, an abused pet.  But now it smells blood.  And thanks to her Animalism power, which lets her negotiate with beasts...  It's negotiating with her.
And she, also, sees light at the end of a long tunnel.  a reckoning is not to be postponed indefinitely
a reckoning is not to be postponed indefinitely

Edit:  Eleanor did lose 1 humanity.  She just barely (2 dice) still feels a wrongness from killing, even in war.  It was very close, though.
Burning their fortress to the ground, destroying everything they own?  She felt nothing, and dropped to 4 humanity (7 is default, where stealing feels wrong)
WoD is interesting that way.  As long as she still feels something "wrong" while killing, she's retains 4 morality/humanity.  That particular line is a rough one to cross.
She did luck out and receive no derangement (insane quirk) for losing all respect for property, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 06, 2017, 11:11:00 pm

This campaign seems a bit much. We've kind of exhausted our options for liberating the town.

We previously tried to free the work camp, but they just have too many reinforcements.
We went to find allies who were driven out of the town, but they were too injured from summoning gone awry to help us without a few weeks of rest.
We tried to get the aid of those at the dock, who were enemies of the occupation force, but they told us to sod off and called the occupiers for aid.
We responding by killing most of them, lighting the dock on fire, and running away when reinforcements arrive. We lost our Gunslinger in the fight though.
We've started hitting their supply caravans outside of town, which are much more manageable.

Aside from the caravan assault and helping out the loyalists, every other encounter was considered a failure, so we're a bit behind in our adventure. Destroying the dock wasn't enough for it to be considered a success; we had to also defeat the reinforcements. Which included five fourth-level Paladins, a couple of Hound Archons, and a Legion Archon. We're level Five. I'm fairly positive the DM is fucking with encounters.

I've almost got the souls to finish the Devil-Contract at least. Just nine more souls to go. Or one Paladin or two Clerics, as they are worth much more. Coup-de-gracing them with the sacrificial dagger has proven to be a pain in the ass. They keep dying before I get the chance to kill them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 07, 2017, 02:53:58 am

Well creating a game sure is easier when you don't place...  like 10 hours of work on yourself (Ignoring that I've been writing for like... 6 hours straight)

Though I definitely can tell I am burning out... but I have to get it done, so I'll pull an all nighter.

And now 3 hours of straight work today, and discovered I made a pretty bad typo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 09, 2017, 07:08:14 am

Heh, so here's what happened.

Party was looking to free one player's NPC brother from slavery to tie off their backstory.

So I built the NPC as a Vigilante per Pathfinder class, with his goal to free the slaves he's been trapped with for the last half a year.

The party does his quest, finds out he's the NPC they're looking for, and he gives them a quest to free the slaves of the town where they're staying.

Instead of accepting the quest, the players bash him unconscious and tie him up, then murder the local guard that's looking for him and attempt to flee the town.

So what should I do to reward this unexpected turn of events, hmm?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on May 09, 2017, 07:27:26 am

So they bashed a PC's own brother unconscious? What exactly happened there? Did they just leave him there?

I imagine the local authorities will be after them, but the slaves could also turn on them for attacking their champion. If the brother got left behind, he could escape on his own and chase them down (with friends).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 09, 2017, 07:46:57 am

The town is Lawful Evil and controlled by diabolists who worship Asmodeus. The majority of slaves in the town are halflings, and as part of the previous session the group burnt their temple to the ground and destroyed the record archive of all the town's slaves.

Essentially, the PC that is related to the brother disagreed with submitting to the quest, decided they'd simply 'rescue' their brother by force, and dealt him sufficient nonlethal damage to render him unconscious.

Currently the NPC brother Vigilante is tied up with rope, unconscious, on one of the player's mounts. They're hoping to flee town with their airship. I was figuring a Horned Devil teleporting onto the airship before they can board would be a good spanner in the works of their plan, though I'm certainly open to suggestions. The group is level 11 at the moment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 09, 2017, 07:54:46 am

Pfft, as if mere rope and a shitton of nonlethal damage could hold a proper Vigilante. They've got Escape Artist as a class skill!

Best case scenario, the Vigibro can sabotage their airship while they're on board! Especially if they don't watch him closely. If they do, his trusty halfling sidekick (or cadre of loyal halfling operatives, in any case freed from servitude and thus eternally loyal to their charming rescuer) can show up to bail him out.

Or do both, have the halfling sidekick/halfling operatives sic the diabolists on the PCs under the pretext of them cooperating with Fantasy Zorro (so they bring in the big devils to bring him to justice) while simultaneously mounting a rescue operation in the chaos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on May 09, 2017, 10:55:03 pm

That sounds like the sort of insane shit that happened in my highschool D&D group. :P

It's fun when you're playing as a Lawful Evil cleric and somehow wind up as the moral compass of the party, simply by virtue of being the only sane one surrounded by a bunch of chaotic "good" dumbasses with poor judgement.
I miss that.

Made me realize the chaotic good and lawful evil are basically the same alignment, it's just that one is being honest about wanting the world to burn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 09, 2017, 11:01:00 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 09, 2017, 07:54:46 am

Vigibro

Isn't that a Dragon Ball Z character?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 10, 2017, 03:27:35 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on May 09, 2017, 10:55:03 pm

That sounds like the sort of insane shit that happened in my highschool D&D group. :P

It's fun when you're playing as a Lawful Evil cleric and somehow wind up as the moral compass of the party, simply by virtue of being the only sane one surrounded by a bunch of chaotic "good" dumbasses with poor judgement.
I miss that.

Made me realize the chaotic good and lawful evil are basically the same alignment, it's just that one is being honest about wanting the world to burn.

Explains why chaotic good players always tend to be the bane of my existence in most of my games I'm a player in.

I've seen CG played well. I've seen a lot of alignments played well. But the worst offender is someone who plays LE and then does chaotic evil stuff and says "it's within my character's code" but they never tell the DM/GM what that actually entails.

I'm sure I shared it where the LE oracle locked the entire party, save his fiancé out of game, in a room without any chance of escaping. And we only got out after he had to end his spell on a prisoner of his who freed us because the DM got mad and sent a sphinx after him

He proceeded to cheat the riddles and got through.

I should also bring this to the table:

Should players be allowed to make skill checks to solve riddles? I mean like "twins standing at crossroad, one leads to hell, one to heaven, one tells only truths, one lies" type riddles, not like a teleport puzzle.

I personally think they shouldn't, even if people claim "my character has higher intelligence than I do"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 10, 2017, 03:31:27 pm

It does seem like a cop-out, and I am normally extremely against playing to the roll, the skill checks are there for a reason and as much as it kills the engagement, I'd probably allow it in some cases.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 10, 2017, 03:36:21 pm

I'd only give a hint of it was related to their backstory.

Like the riddle about Honor. If they came from a warrior based culture or they themselves were an Honor based person, then I would say "it sounds like something you know of" and that's about it on my end

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on May 10, 2017, 03:37:41 pm

Provided they are comfortable with skill and knowledge checks whenever they encounter a situation their character might know less than them about, why not?

 :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on May 10, 2017, 03:40:30 pm

I've been in this situation many, many times. In the end, I just started coming up with hints that players could unlock with varying rolls. You could never get a riddle solved for you completely, but you could make it so that it was multiple choice, or some such shenanigans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 10, 2017, 03:52:35 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 10, 2017, 03:27:35 pm

Should players be allowed to make skill checks to solve riddles? I mean like "twins standing at crossroad, one leads to hell, one to heaven, one tells only truths, one lies" type riddles, not like a teleport puzzle.

I personally think they shouldn't, even if people claim "my character has higher intelligence than I do"

Yes, or at least, they should be able to get some very strong hints.

If someone has to make a performance check to play music, you don't expect them to have to play sick riffs on a guitar in real life.
I'm personally shit at riddles, but that doesn't mean all my characters have to be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on May 10, 2017, 03:59:28 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on May 10, 2017, 03:52:35 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 10, 2017, 03:27:35 pm

Should players be allowed to make skill checks to solve riddles? I mean like "twins standing at crossroad, one leads to hell, one to heaven, one tells only truths, one lies" type riddles, not like a teleport puzzle.

I personally think they shouldn't, even if people claim "my character has higher intelligence than I do"

Yes, or at least, they should be able to get some very strong hints.

If someone has to make a performance check to play music, you don't expect them to have to play sick riffs on a guitar in real life.
I'm personally shit at riddles, but that doesn't mean all my characters have to be.

This. You're just gonna make your player frustrated if you force them to solve something they're not good at. I can imagine them feeling humiliated, too, if others treat it as obvious. Not a great situation to put a group in. Plus even if they're good at that sort of thing, they might be coming to the game so they can turn that part of their brain off.

Building cool puzzles, riddles, etc. is fun and all, but no-one's going to like them if they feel forced down your throat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on May 10, 2017, 04:52:12 pm

I feel like the right way to do it is to have the puzzle be interacted with at least at first if it's something like a teleport puzzle. Once the players have played with it and -should- have an idea of how to bust it, but are stumped, INT or knowledge checks could be used for hinting at the proper way to solve the puzzle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 10, 2017, 05:13:05 pm

Victory is meaningless if there's no chance of failure.

If you're planning an encounter that has something other than combat, such as a riddle, allow for the chance that nobody can solve it. Consequences might be you need to fight a particularly hard battle instead, or set off a trap.

Personally, I've never had any problems caused by underestimating my players' intelligence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 10, 2017, 05:15:29 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 10, 2017, 05:13:05 pm

Victory is meaningless if there's no chance of failure.

Ok this isn't a counter argument to your sentiment just of this line.

There is "flourishing". An Artist will always be able to paint a canvas, there is no chance they will fail at that. Yet the real challenge is how good you can paint it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: sjm9876 on May 10, 2017, 05:33:48 pm

I'm more or less with Jimmy on this one. If you want your puzzles solvable with a skill check, you need to throw the player-side challenge somewhere else. Personally I just let INT checks give hints, but never a solution, but try to ensure there's always another option than actually solving the puzzle.

That said, for my group at least, they'd almost always find a way to bypass my puzzles other than what I'd planned. It's worth remembering that just because something isn't 'the solution' it can still be a solution and should be rewarded as heavily (ie. the careful application of high explosives to the riddle locked door :P )

EDIT: For me, it's about player involvement: if the players don't have to meaningfully interact with the puzzle to get past it, why even have it there at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 10, 2017, 05:59:29 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on May 10, 2017, 05:15:29 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 10, 2017, 05:13:05 pm

Victory is meaningless if there's no chance of failure.

Ok this isn't a counter argument to your sentiment just of this line.

There is "flourishing". An Artist will always be able to paint a canvas, there is no chance they will fail at that. Yet the real challenge is how good you can paint it.

This isn't a paintng we're talking about. This is a riddle, and its either you get it right or you get it wrong.

Dropping hints is the best I do, even if they crit. Because the guy I mentioned earlier who cheated used a die roller instead of rolling dice, and I'm convinced he does it until he succeeds. Reason being he says he "rolls in advance", and when he crit that, no one was happy with him.

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on May 10, 2017, 03:59:28 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on May 10, 2017, 03:52:35 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 10, 2017, 03:27:35 pm

Should players be allowed to make skill checks to solve riddles? I mean like "twins standing at crossroad, one leads to hell, one to heaven, one tells only truths, one lies" type riddles, not like a teleport puzzle.

I personally think they shouldn't, even if people claim "my character has higher intelligence than I do"

Yes, or at least, they should be able to get some very strong hints.

If someone has to make a performance check to play music, you don't expect them to have to play sick riffs on a guitar in real life.
I'm personally shit at riddles, but that doesn't mean all my characters have to be.

This. You're just gonna make your player frustrated if you force them to solve something they're not good at. I can imagine them feeling humiliated, too, if others treat it as obvious. Not a great situation to put a group in. Plus even if they're good at that sort of thing, they might be coming to the game so they can turn that part of their brain off.

Building cool puzzles, riddles, etc. is fun and all, but no-one's going to like them if they feel forced down your throat.

I disagree, only because when it comes down to it, riddles aren't just "memorizing the answer". The riddle about one tells truths and the other lies is clearly a logic riddle. But most other riddles, like the ones Gollum gives in the hobbit, aren't all based on smarts. This is why in Norse Mythology, Odin seeks WISDOM, and he does so in some cases by asking and answering riddles.

A friend of mine says do both a wisdom and intelligence check, but that doesn't do anything but have it as a stupid "roll to solve all your problems" and it comes down to a die roll.

And at that point, its "character with highest intelligence knows everything because they rolled good on their stats". I also prefer having players talking to one another to sort it out. Sadly, I do know what its like when a player feels insulted when they don't know the answer to something (I tend to be that player sometimes). But at the same time, if you put no effort into trying to figure stuff out because you want to rush everything, than maybe YOU'RE the problem.

But lets say I let you roll. That means you can roll until you figure it out every ten minutes in game. Unless you're under duress (which most of the time, you aren't in these cases). And even if the person with the highest intelligence doesn't succeed, you let everyone else be allowed to do so, which means they're gonna solve it and your point of having the riddle, which is having the players figure it out, is useless. So why not just have a lock that needs to be picked or even something else that makes more sense to roll for?

I do need to make a point; if you're giving riddles that are really hard, then you need to think about the collective mind of your players and how smart they are. My group is literally baffling me with how abstract they tackle everything, and its safe to say a basic riddle shouldn't stop them. They should be able to figure out riddles like presented in the hobbit or even the dark tower (which I took a couple from, and the riddle I presented them was the Shadow riddle from the dark tower series and I literally added on a stanza to say to cast your shadow over a point. I had a player rage quit right away though, but thats besides the point).

To me, its not a matter of "how smart is your character" but "how well can they take the information give them, and use it both logically and abstractly to solve the puzzle", which I don't think there is an actual check unless your game has an actual "riddles" skill

Quote from: sjm9876 on May 10, 2017, 05:33:48 pm

I'm more or less with Jimmy on this one. If you want your puzzles solvable with a skill check, you need to throw the player-side challenge somewhere else. Personally I just let INT checks give hints, but never a solution, but try to ensure there's always another option than actually solving the puzzle.

That said, for my group at least, they'd almost always find a way to bypass my puzzles other than what I'd planned. It's worth remembering that just because something isn't 'the solution' it can still be a solution and should be rewarded as heavily (ie. the careful application of high explosives to the riddle locked door :P )

EDIT: For me, it's about player involvement: if the players don't have to meaningfully interact with the puzzle to get past it, why even have it there at all.

I agree; the players do need to interact with it a bit and start making ideas on it before I drop a hint or two, but I won't outright give them the answer (which is what I should have clarified my statement was on...)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 10, 2017, 06:01:33 pm

Quote

This isn't a paintng we're talking about. This is a riddle, and its either you get it right or you get it wron

Yes I know >_> hence why I said it isn't a counter argument.

I've just heard people take something easy as a reason for it being unchallenging but really it means they are too lazy to do anything with it. So I wanted to deal with that one statement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Mephisto on May 10, 2017, 10:58:45 pm

So I take it the "pass or fail" people aren't big proponents of failing forward.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 11, 2017, 12:22:24 am

I'm firmly in the camp of not giving more than a vague hint even with appropriate mental stat based checks. If the players can't roleplay a solution to the puzzle, give them a chance to roll for an alternative solution instead, such as a trap or combat.

I'd argue that's part of the reason why the sphinx has a stat block in the first place. Answer the riddle, win the encounter. Fail the riddle, you have to fight the monster instead. If your players are smart enough to figure out the riddle, they get to bypass the encounter without needing to spend their resources on combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on May 11, 2017, 12:28:03 am

I'm not saying you should immediately let the player bypass the riddle with a skill check - I wasn't really talking about skill checks here specifically, even if that was the topic of the conversation.  I just mean that you shouldn't force them to keep trying it if they're not enjoying it. Creative alternatives, making it a group effort, just clearly making it an optional bonus thing - these all work. It's just the kind of 'no you have to do this and exactly this to continue' that really bothers me.

Not doing it shouldn't feel like failure. And I'm not even saying failure is bad, in general - but this failure isn't based on character choices or gameplay efforts, it's based on the player's own intelligence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 11, 2017, 12:32:30 am

I'd say it also depends on the style of game you're running.

My players mostly face combat encounters. They like it, I like it, everyone's happy. However, there's also plenty of flexibility between the group about alternatives.

Using riddles and other noncombat encounters should be like using spice in cooking. A little bit adds highlights to the dish, makes it memorable and avoids it becoming bland and boring. Too much, however, and it becomes overpowering and unpalatable. You have to strike a balance, and know your audience to get a feel for how much is needed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Biowraith on May 11, 2017, 01:38:05 am

Personally I'd be in favour of stat checks for at least hints to riddles and puzzles (and I'm not entirely opposed to outright solutions) because I view my character as very much separate from myself - I want my successes and failures to be at least as much about my character's capabilities as they are about my own as a player.  Give the players a chance for their own personal victory sure, but if they're struggling, especially if they're getting frustrated, let the characters' strengths come into play (and hey, the character might still fail the stat check).

Coming at the question from the other direction, if I were playing a really dumb character I'd deliberately answer the riddle wrongly (or maybe just not answer) even if I as a player had it figured out in seconds - and I'd continue to do so if my fellow players also couldn't figure it out, even though it meant the party failing.*

But as said, it depends on the style of game and the types of players and GM. Personally I'm not heavily looking for a players-pitting-their-wits-against-the-GM type of challenge (and to the extent that I am, I generally get that from combat, and wider scope mental challenges like the mysteries and plot twists in the story), but others most certainly will be.


*out of curiosity, what is the consensus on the dumb character with a smart player in situations like that?  Would you expect them to do as I would and bite their tongue since their character wouldn't figure something like that out?  Should they answer anyway because this was a player challenge rather than a character challenge?  Deploy the idiot-savant trope?  Genuinely curious here, not trying to use it to make a point - I don't have a huge amount of RPG experience these days so I'm not sure what the common view is (or if there even is one).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on May 11, 2017, 02:27:00 am

I'm pretty good at riddles, but I make my characters do dumb stuff all the time. If there's an IC reason my character might be able to figure it out, I'm happy to play off that, but you're not going to find the 8-int Barbarian effortlessly outfoxing a Sphinx.

What I will do is discuss it OOC with other players, as a representation of their character being as smart as all of us combined. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on May 11, 2017, 02:31:03 am

Quote from: Biowraith on May 11, 2017, 01:38:05 am

*out of curiosity, what is the consensus on the dumb character with a smart player in situations like that?  Would you expect them to do as I would and bite their tongue since their character wouldn't figure something like that out?  Should they answer anyway because this was a player challenge rather than a character challenge?  Deploy the idiot-savant trope?  Genuinely curious here, not trying to use it to make a point - I don't have a huge amount of RPG experience these days so I'm not sure what the common view is (or if there even is one).

I'd argue that they should be able to talk about it OOC, and suggest it to the player of a smarter character: the player making tactical decisions may not be the professional soldier, the most charismatic player doesn't have to be the dashing bard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 11, 2017, 02:34:01 am

Quote from: Biowraith on May 11, 2017, 01:38:05 am

Personally I'd be in favour of stat checks for at least hints to riddles and puzzles (and I'm not entirely opposed to outright solutions) because I view my character as very much separate from myself - I want my successes and failures to be at least as much about my character's capabilities as they are about my own as a player.  Give the players a chance for their own personal victory sure, but if they're struggling, especially if they're getting frustrated, let the characters' strengths come into play (and hey, the character might still fail the stat check).

Coming at the question from the other direction, if I were playing a really dumb character I'd deliberately answer the riddle wrongly (or maybe just not answer) even if I as a player had it figured out in seconds - and I'd continue to do so if my fellow players also couldn't figure it out, even though it meant the party failing.*

But as said, it depends on the style of game and the types of players and GM. Personally I'm not heavily looking for a players-pitting-their-wits-against-the-GM type of challenge (and to the extent that I am, I generally get that from combat, and wider scope mental challenges like the mysteries and plot twists in the story), but others most certainly will be.


*out of curiosity, what is the consensus on the dumb character with a smart player in situations like that?  Would you expect them to do as I would and bite their tongue since their character wouldn't figure something like that out?  Should they answer anyway because this was a player challenge rather than a character challenge?  Deploy the idiot-savant trope?  Genuinely curious here, not trying to use it to make a point - I don't have a huge amount of RPG experience these days so I'm not sure what the common view is (or if there even is one).

I have a player who plays everything with a negative to int all the time. Their int is so low, they can't even READ

Quote from: Arx on May 11, 2017, 02:27:00 am

I'm pretty good at riddles, but I make my characters do dumb stuff all the time. If there's an IC reason my character might be able to figure it out, I'm happy to play off that, but you're not going to find the 8-int Barbarian effortlessly outfoxing a Sphinx.

What I will do is discuss it OOC with other players, as a representation of their character being as smart as all of us combined. :P

As stated, its better when players discuss it. That's what D&D is all about; sitting around a table, playing with other people, and working together to solve challenges of all kinds. Without it, its just dice rolling

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 11, 2017, 02:38:04 am

I think the proper response for an 8-int (human normal, under most rule sets?) barbarian, would be "I got a riddle for YOU mr. sphinx-- Do you enjoy anal so much that you WANT me to cram this spiked +2 club up your hairy magical ass, or are you just going to skip this question shit, and let me pass? Hmm?"

LOL

Even BETTER if the group manages to actually pull off that outcome, with a combination of high level slot enhanced hold-monsters from the mage, and a 1H hammer used to drive said club in with-- with discussion on how many turns it would take to put it there. (like, "Is that one action point per strike, or what?")

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on May 11, 2017, 03:00:25 am

No, that's a Wis 3 Cha 3 barbarian you're thinking of.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 11, 2017, 03:01:35 am

Depends-- Is this barbarian just dumb, or is he just cynically jaded, and really--- REALLY--- just does not want to play stupid games with monsters? ;P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on May 11, 2017, 03:13:17 am

If a player wants to roll their way out of a riddle, then do the following:

1: Let the player know that if they roll poorly, you will intentionally give them the wrong answer, perhaps even one that will hurt them if the roll low enough.
2: Roll the die without letting them see it.
3: Ask them if they really trust their character to come up with a better idea than the player.

That way, they can roll out of a puzzle (to some extent) but you aren't diminishing the nerve-wrack portion of the test.

Punish your lazy players, I say!

*Skulks off to his lair of Lawful Evil*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 11, 2017, 03:28:35 am

Well, I mean, the whole "Oh yes-- a monster that gets off on forcing mortals to answer stupid riddles, and eats them when they screw up-- YES! Let's TOTALLY just allow this thing to keep doing that! THat sounds like a GREAT idea!" is something that should not be overlooked in the motivational rationale of a character.  Playing along with the stupid game the monster is engaging in would require a specific alignment with lawfulness (Following the rules as provided, VS being a rule breaker and refusing them), and would require either a neutral or evil alignment on the good axis, for the PC to really feel good about getting through the puzzle by answering the question, as opposed to just offing the damn monster and doing the world a favor, or die trying.

A barbarian that has been around the block a few times could very well be jaded as shit about things like that, and really-- just not want to even try playing the game-- Will see the damned sphinx guarding the gate, and be like "Fuck answering his shitty riddles. You know what? Wizard guy-- I want you to buff your luck right now, then precharge hold monsters at the strongest level you have, and you, Mr Rogue, I want you to get that crazy rope you have ready-- We are gonna walk in nonchalantly, and when it asks us about its stupid assed riddle, we are gonna give it the choice of having its shit fucked up, or fucking off and letting us past-- and depending on which it chooses, that is what it is gonna get-- Game?"

It isn't something so innately tied to their wis or cha-- it has to do with their personality, backstory, and personal ethos. They could be totally eloquent when dealing with humanoids, for instance-- but be total assholes to smart-assed monsters who act like they wont get their asses handed to them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on May 11, 2017, 03:50:47 am

At first I thought, "that sounds like a bit more complicated than what a mental-stat-dump barbarian would think of" but...

...I can actually completely see a barbarian be a total idiot on everything except on how he plans to fuck up monsters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 11, 2017, 04:58:03 am

Quote from: wierd on May 11, 2017, 02:38:04 am

I think the proper response for an 8-int (human normal, under most rule sets?)

A commoner in 5e has ten (+0) on all stats, as I recall.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 11, 2017, 05:24:31 am

So he's a little on the slow side then-- More likely to decide that dumb riddles from dumb monsters need a spike club up their butt, if you ask me. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 11, 2017, 12:37:30 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on May 11, 2017, 04:58:03 am

Quote from: wierd on May 11, 2017, 02:38:04 am

I think the proper response for an 8-int (human normal, under most rule sets?)

A commoner in 5e has ten (+0) on all stats, as I recall.

8 is the basic score you get for not putting any points on in the point buy system, probably what he was getting at

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 13, 2017, 10:25:41 pm

I am now a Graveknight. Time to fuck self-righteous rebels up. I didn't get to keep the sacrificial dagger though.

Also, the Fighter's a Dragon now. He's a bit stronger than I am, but I've got a better to-hit.

The twist of the Contract Devil's contract was that I didn't get to choose my elemental affinity. Not a big deal. I ended up with Acid affinity, which is alright. Not commonly resisted. The Fighter's twist was that he gained vulnerability to the opposing element of his chosen dragon. He asked for another contract to get out of having a vulnerability, and the DM said nope.

I also tried a fast-dismount from my horse. I only need a 5 or better to do so. I rolled a 4 and fell off my horse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 14, 2017, 04:22:24 am

Getting the pacing of play by post is proving difficult to me. I hope nothing goes wrong because of the way I am handling things, but you never know when your just learning.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on May 14, 2017, 11:47:00 am

Quote from: Neonivek on May 14, 2017, 04:22:24 am

Getting the pacing of play by post is proving difficult to me. I hope nothing goes wrong because of the way I am handling things, but you never know when your just learning.

I think you're doing fine.
PBP naturally feels wonky at first, particularly since this is an international forum where not everyone is awake at the same time.
You good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on May 14, 2017, 02:13:53 pm

Ran my first session of Eclipse Phase yesterday, had to stop early because one of the players was out of town and had a bad internet connection, hoping to continue later today.

Their goal was to infiltrate a ship and steal a supposed TITAN artifact. I put up a bunch of mercs and drones to discourage a frontal assault. So they try it anyway, and succeed because one of them had 80 in interfacing, rolled 0 (which is excellent), and hacked everything. They were about to go into the ship itself when we were forced to stop.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 14, 2017, 11:45:25 pm

I sucked punched a party member who was in my last game with him fighting a guy in that previous game. He thought that the reason he showed up was because the timeline was messed up and he will stop a lot of people getting killed if he ends this guy's life. Instead, the party kills him and his body is enveloped by black flames as he is taken to the abyss and makes a deal with a demon prince to live, in exchange of collecting as many souls as he thinks is enough for his own soul.

Since the guy is a psychopath, he beleives his soul is worth more than anything, so he murders people, captures their souls, and gives the demon dozens of souls at a time. They also gave him his signature "mask", which is literally his actual skull. Later on, he would be able to have his flesh go over his exposed skull to make his face appear as someone else, but his voice would always have the faint hollow sound, as if you were standing not close to but near a pipeline or tunnel.

So essentially, the party member began returning things into what it would actually do. And he knew this after the black flames started to erupt from his body.

The best part is the former party member told everyone he was part demon and kept using stuff to hurt fiends but he never turns fiend or undead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on May 14, 2017, 11:55:32 pm

Quote from: Teneb on May 14, 2017, 02:13:53 pm

Ran my first session of Eclipse Phase yesterday, had to stop early because one of the players was out of town and had a bad internet connection, hoping to continue later today.

Their goal was to infiltrate a ship and steal a supposed TITAN artifact. I put up a bunch of mercs and drones to discourage a frontal assault. So they try it anyway, and succeed because one of them had 80 in interfacing, rolled 0 (which is excellent), and hacked everything. They were about to go into the ship itself when we were forced to stop.

I adore Eclipse Phase. I'm currently running a game on saturday in meat space. It sounds like you were doing 'Dont Mind the WMD'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 15, 2017, 04:49:00 am

Week before last our group of neutral-at-best adventurers kind of... snapped. Two of the most morally dubious characters were very close to level 8 and jokes about killing the villagers we're going round while we were planning our next move in the tavern.

Then the sorcerer casually stood up with a drawn longbow and pinned the barkeep to the wall with an arrow. There were basically no survivors, and then the carnage moved out of town and killed the archmage we were talking to like half an hour earlier about the imminent extrapoanar invasion

Sigh

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 15, 2017, 06:04:00 am

So whilst one of the players is away, another of my players is going to run a Stars Without Numbers game, which is essentially a pulp fiction space RPG. I've decided to go with a backworld character, and the following is my concept:

Name: Ilmenster the Mage, Sage of Shadows, The Great Overspacorceror, Doombringer of Mysteries, Old Stinkbeard, Put That Pipe Out That Tank's Filled With Pure Oxygen
Race: Human
Age: Venerable
Class: Psychic Space Wizard

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 15, 2017, 06:09:46 am

Make sure to take Teleportation as a discipline, it's a lot of fun. Telepathy's also really good early on. Or if you get access to some additional materials, Judication is pretty funny.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 16, 2017, 10:58:12 pm

Man I'd join one of the gods of creation games in the play by post section

But goodness do they seem like they are just filled with backstabbing SOBs :P

Is it as bad as it looks? I think it is only because I stepped in at a time when a lot of crazy stuff is happening.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on May 17, 2017, 06:19:23 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on May 14, 2017, 11:55:32 pm

Quote from: Teneb on May 14, 2017, 02:13:53 pm

Ran my first session of Eclipse Phase yesterday, had to stop early because one of the players was out of town and had a bad internet connection, hoping to continue later today.

Their goal was to infiltrate a ship and steal a supposed TITAN artifact. I put up a bunch of mercs and drones to discourage a frontal assault. So they try it anyway, and succeed because one of them had 80 in interfacing, rolled 0 (which is excellent), and hacked everything. They were about to go into the ship itself when we were forced to stop.

I adore Eclipse Phase. I'm currently running a game on saturday in meat space. It sounds like you were doing 'Dont Mind the WMD'.

Bit of a late reply, but eh. Didn't manage to continue it on sunday, so it'll happen today. The catch to the whole WMD thing is that there are two red herrings and they're not the only ones after it. Not that they know that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Necrothurge on May 18, 2017, 10:10:13 am

Quote from: wierd on May 11, 2017, 02:38:04 am

I think the proper response for an 8-int (human normal, under most rule sets?)

10.5 is the average for 3d6.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Necrothurge on May 18, 2017, 10:11:15 am

Oh, also, if any of you are interested I'm running a Chaosium (Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, BRP, HeroQuest etc) Discord over here: https://discord.gg/nmqBHCh

We've got quite a few users and a couple of (hyper) active ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 18, 2017, 06:48:26 pm

I have been wanting to try Call of Cthulu, but I would need to be friends with the DM-- I have already decided that I want to play as a race that is technically in the mythos, but not in the rulebook, and which could be considered OP-- and would also be difficult to play properly.

They are a central focus of this story...
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/mo.aspx

Basically, they look like native americans, but TOTALLY ARE NOT. Perfect mythos monsters to be played by a PC IMHO-- Look human in every way, but are culturally acclimated to other horrors, and so would not go insane so easily. (but would likely freak the shit out when presented with certain high power creatures, where ignorant humans would rush in where angels fear to tread; It is one thing to risk insanity and learn of such horrors through reading the necronomicon-- It is entirely another to be in telepathic contact with them as a cultural staple. ;) ) Also possess crazy psycho-kinetic and telepathic powers. Otherwise highly vulnerable, like humans.

Playing as one would require DM approval, and would need house rules, since they are not in the official source book (other than the actual short stories, as cited.)

I would compose a backstory of a "very youthful" member of this race, successfully bipassing the guardians and making it to the surface. As the short story points out, the youngers of this race are susceptible to human-like curiosity and foolishness; If one got past the elders, they could investigate the humans, the way humans investigate the mythos creatures. This means they would come off as very socially awkward (not acclimated to human society), but very useful on mythos investigations (knows all about the other creatures first hand)-- Would be difficult to play, as being deceptive toward the party to keep their "No, I am human man-- honest!" real identity a secret (seriously, do you think the party would feel comfortable having a creature that can literally turn them wrong-side-out with a thought in the room with them while they slept?), meaning that they would have to be holding their punches all the damn time, and only going full superman when nobody else is around, clark kent style. They would be very difficult to play properly, and the only way to play them the right way is with support from the DM.

The short list of documented powers include:
Astral projection
Telepathy
Telekinesis (like, crazy telekinesis-- full mastery over matter using thought)
Teleportation
Near-immortality (agelessness)

And those are "natural" abilities, not magic.  Like I said, Easy to consider OP. Needs to be played very tightly with their backstory as a curious youth, who is being very very careful to keep their identity secret from the dangerous and unpredictably brash humans who would likely come to crush them in force if they are discovered-- while also satisfying youthful curiosity about said humans.

Keeping that identity secret would be something this character would literally kill to keep secret-- and could kill in complete secrecy. Their clandestine actions would require very careful cooperation with the DM.  Amusingly, this would be easier to accomplish with an online game session, rather than in person. (hard for the DM to hide the fact that he is doing some really strange rolls every time a certain player is doing things when everyone is watching them... LOL.)

For the most part, this character would avoid conflict wherever possible (engaging with full powers exposes his identity. Only fights when REALLY needed.), and would masquarade as a weak and worthless intellectual type player with abysmal stats, but comprehensive (and thus very useful) knowledge of the mythos.  Somehow always manages to avoid getting killed though, and mysteriously is highly resistant to going batshit from mythos monster attacks. Favors using primitive weapons, or magical weapons. (magical weapons give a good smokescreen to the use of their natural powers, as ignorant humans would not know better.)

I wish I knew people that play in my area. I would be totally down for some of this ^  and think I could play the character well. His intellectual interest in humans would allow him to form (carefully guarded) relationships with his party members, as he would indeed be genuinely curious about their problems, live histories, and motivations, stemming from his anthropological primary motivation. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrWiggles on May 19, 2017, 02:19:11 am

Quote from: Teneb on May 17, 2017, 06:19:23 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on May 14, 2017, 11:55:32 pm

Quote from: Teneb on May 14, 2017, 02:13:53 pm

Ran my first session of Eclipse Phase yesterday, had to stop early because one of the players was out of town and had a bad internet connection, hoping to continue later today.

Their goal was to infiltrate a ship and steal a supposed TITAN artifact. I put up a bunch of mercs and drones to discourage a frontal assault. So they try it anyway, and succeed because one of them had 80 in interfacing, rolled 0 (which is excellent), and hacked everything. They were about to go into the ship itself when we were forced to stop.

I adore Eclipse Phase. I'm currently running a game on saturday in meat space. It sounds like you were doing 'Dont Mind the WMD'.

Bit of a late reply, but eh. Didn't manage to continue it on sunday, so it'll happen today. The catch to the whole WMD thing is that there are two red herrings and they're not the only ones after it. Not that they know that.

This is a link to a discord server about elcipse phase.
https://discord.gg/jQx9Naa

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 19, 2017, 03:58:31 am

Apparently there's going to be a video game based off of Pathfinder's Kingmaker Adventure Path (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/v5748eaic9voe?First-CRPG-Pathfinder-Game-in-Development-by).

Also lots of salt because of a new Core book. Lots of different types of salt as well. It's great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on May 19, 2017, 05:05:44 am

You can add things to core? Doesn't that automatically make it not core?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 19, 2017, 05:07:52 am

>_< apparently the Play By Post I am running might be getting its full rules a LOT sooner than I thought.

Don't quite know what I'll do when that happens.

One might be to allow the people who wanted to be in the Forgotten and other cartels to do so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on May 19, 2017, 03:41:43 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 19, 2017, 03:58:31 am

Apparently there's going to be a video game based off of Pathfinder's Kingmaker Adventure Path (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/v5748eaic9voe?First-CRPG-Pathfinder-Game-in-Development-by).

Also lots of salt because of a new Core book. Lots of different types of salt as well. It's great.

Sounds interesting. Also reminds me of that MMO they were making. What ever happened with that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on May 19, 2017, 04:24:25 pm

Quote from: scriver on May 19, 2017, 05:05:44 am

You can add things to core? Doesn't that automatically make it not core?

Pathfinder doesn't really do splatbooks (some the of the soft cover stuff like the psionics book might be considered that, though) so they tend to release large books and consider them "core" material - ie, not "ultimates" which are collections of stuff from the adventure paths, as far as I understand. The "core" books are usually also full of rule updates and specifications and classes and spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 19, 2017, 05:27:10 pm

Quote from: scriver on May 19, 2017, 05:05:44 am

You can add things to core? Doesn't that automatically make it not core?

Pathfinder has a "Core Line" of books, which is anything listed under the RPG line of books (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG) on Paizo's site.

The Splatbooks come in two categories as well, in Campaign Settings and Player Companions.

The last few Core books had Pathfinder-specific content, such as deities, and people are getting angry at Paizo for not keeping the Core line setting agnostic. The latest book focuses on 18 organizations from the Inner Sea, which is the setting of the Pathfinder Adventures. It also features a lot of reprints from splatbooks, though just about every core book features a few reprints. It often gives said pre-existing content some needed adjustments, so I don't mind.

Quote from: Kadzar on May 19, 2017, 03:41:43 pm

Sounds interesting. Also reminds me of that MMO they were making. What ever happened with that?

It fell through, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 20, 2017, 02:18:48 am

I know from personal experience that Kingdom Building rules are an amazingly broken way to enhance a character. You can simply farm gold and magic items with enough hexes, black markets and a decent modifier to your rolls.

Looks like they're doing another cookie-cutter isometric RPG clone. I found I got bored with them after about three or four hours. Baldur's Gate, Path of Exile, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, or Divinity: Original Sin. All tend to get pretty stale pretty soon for me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on May 20, 2017, 10:49:52 am

I always thought those looked ridiculous. They're rules resembling a Civ game for a topic most people I've met would rather have open to interpretation and DM fiat for themselves.

Can you imagine if Tale of an Industrious Rogue was run with the Kingdom Building rules? It definitely wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 20, 2017, 12:46:33 pm

For the unaware, what are these "Kingdom Building" rules?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on May 20, 2017, 03:15:33 pm

These. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar.html)

I don't mind the mass combat section (the rules are actually quite good IMO, although it's weirdly skewed for really tiny armies,) but the other three sections are more video game than tabletop RPG.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 20, 2017, 07:43:29 pm

Quote from: Sirus on May 20, 2017, 12:46:33 pm

For the unaware, what are these "Kingdom Building" rules?

I tried to use those rules in the game I ran and failed because Apiks forced down my throat to run a game like that. I couldn't make it work, plus I find 3.5e and Pathfinder DMing more of a chore than actually being fun (despite what my IRL friend told me)


OFF TOPIC FROM ABOVE:

Does anyone know where I can find the rulebook for the tabletop fire emblem game that's usually passed around on the forums? I have a friend who saw it and got other friends interested.


ALSO OFF TOPIC BUT SLIGHTLY RELATED:

How do you find to be the best way to learn a system you aren't familiar with? My friends and I are trying to figure out Shadowrun but we're overwhelmed and confused, and the person who could have taught us and gave me the books, I don't want to talk to anymore

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 20, 2017, 07:53:49 pm

To answer your first question:

Links to all released versions of the Fire Emblem handbook can be found in the OP of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137453.0) thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 20, 2017, 07:54:54 pm

Have some handbooks! Versions 1.20 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/content_link/CwijzzgQkzUfyBhEpz5pHRFaxhojndlFYR6xaS1Um0mdeKdS6c7X8F9KDM6dJf0Y/file), 1.22 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/content_link/8aaYpe3bx8r4gv6G7UHYwibdpm2Ygmzx17hbaNmJHLmKZQu7lr7Jpj85U732Fkau/file), and 1.3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/content_link/cktankhZrIjCvZTq7NGwuUqfWXD5I5kJvVIfGpVZP6mrejCFE7m51oVT4Y7yGbBO/file) here. They're mostly the same; I don't know the differences myself, but someone such as Swordstar or Haspen could probably tell you.

Fake edit: God damn it, Sirus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 20, 2017, 07:59:24 pm

Mwahahahahaha.

Anyway, 1.2 is the earliest one that we really know about. 1.22 was basically never used because some of the classes had ludicrous new special abilities, but the weapon stats were rebalanced.

1.3 is the most commonly used, though even it is often house-ruled extensively to fit individual games and GMs. It uses most of the weapon stats from 1.22 as well as some slightly diminished class abilities.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 20, 2017, 08:41:50 pm

Learning a new system is best handled by immersion, this leads to slow initial games and can be a bit taxing, to combat this I suggest reading the living hell out of the rulebooks and lore, as well as doing a bit of metagame thought experiments regarding those factors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: mastahcheese on May 20, 2017, 09:57:18 pm

Yeah, reading the hell out of the book is a great help.

Also, if you have time, practice writing up characters and have them mock-battle/skill-test crap.
It makes it easier to remember what all goes into such things come gametime. I did a fuckload of mock battles with hastily-made characters when I was younger. T'was fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 20, 2017, 11:16:37 pm

This is gonna be a rough time because the Shadowrun guide is a little hard to follow in PDF format. I'll figure it out eventually. Thanks guys

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 21, 2017, 12:19:27 am

Last session we lost both our Wizards, one a DMPC and the other a PC that was away that session. Buddy was pissed.

This session, he comes back with another Wizard. Then the DM drops several fireballs on him, nearly killing him twice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2017, 11:45:02 am

Does your DM have something against Wizards?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 21, 2017, 11:56:54 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2017, 11:45:02 am

Does your DM have something against Wizards?

Wizards tend to be the people who try and powergame, so I think it's instinctual to take the opportunity to blow up the wizard when you can.

Wizard in my group wants to be able to slaughter hundreds of people in a single attack, but it doesn't work that way. I think she plays too much WoW...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2017, 12:03:30 pm

I haven't had much difficulty with power gamers honestly, I've had a couple in my group, but unless they can provide in-depth justification for their character to be able to do something abnormal I straight up don't allow it.  I have more trouble with RIFTS characters with demolition skills.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 21, 2017, 10:41:56 pm

Our group was discussing random nerd stuff like old UIs and counting in trinary, and I had a nice little spiel about Mathematicians in FFT and how OP they were.  Someone came back with this madness:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/
I love it, abstractly.  But if anyone actually tried to *use* it...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 21, 2017, 10:47:28 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 21, 2017, 11:45:02 am

Does your DM have something against Wizards?

Not really. They were the only ones capable of being charged by an angel with levels of Cavalier. The Summoner was chased as well, but didn't get hit.

Granted, they were also invisible at the time, and the angel doesn't have see invisibility or anything like that.

It does have a bullshit aura that auto-dispels all magic in its radius though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on May 21, 2017, 10:52:22 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 21, 2017, 10:41:56 pm

Our group was discussing random nerd stuff like old UIs and counting in trinary, and I had a nice little spiel about Mathematicians in FFT and how OP they were.  Someone came back with this madness:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/
I love it, abstractly.  But if anyone actually tried to *use* it...

I think I'm in love.

I may have to make that a curse...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 21, 2017, 11:43:03 pm

I made (edited) an image explaining the various fields by purity

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/OREt9eH.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 22, 2017, 02:02:45 am

Sadly, the feats provided by mathematician class arent terribly useful in 99.9999999999% of all combat situations.  Sure, they talk about how hard the battle with the riemann hypothesis is, but that is really only a clumsy 'mass sleep' or "enrage" spell when things get down to it. :P Most monsters lack the necessary INT or WIS to be effected either way, and humanoids tend to either become drowsy or enraged in approximately equal proportion, with increasing power for either based on the number of turns the mathematician invests into the casting. (it is predominantly a verbal invocation, but sometimes kinesthetic and material components can be added to increase effectiveness. IIRC, material is usually either dry erase marker or white chalk.) Elves are apparently immune, not only because they are unable to sleep, but also because of their high INT stat, which is often over the critical threshold for the monologue feat to actually be "interesting".  I guess this makes it count as a "Distract" feat in that circumstance, but really--- Not useful in combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on May 22, 2017, 02:37:58 am

NEEEEEEEEEEEEERDS

<barbarian rage>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on May 22, 2017, 12:46:07 pm

Barbarian bestbarian.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 22, 2017, 01:17:41 pm

Quote from: scriver on May 22, 2017, 02:37:58 am

NEEEEEEEEEEEEERDS

enjoy getting killed by literally any caster with the ability to ensnare you


:P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 23, 2017, 06:25:22 am

Pathfinder Barbarians get an awesome rage power called Spell Sunder that lets them basically substitute a Sunder attack for a Dispel Magic. Once they can Rage cycle, usually by taking a one level dip in Oracle by level 9, they can do this every round if they like. Add this to powers like Eater of Magic to reroll saving throws, and you're looking at a pretty effective anti-caster build.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 23, 2017, 07:39:13 am

Ok, I have a serious question now...

The "sacred geometry" feat listed earlier could be employed to tremendous effect, if paired with item creation, since metamagic effects can be imbued into magical items.  If used exclusively with item creation, (and taken several times), a very successful player character (has lots of money to burn) could create some pretty absurd magical items that technically only consume a low level spell slot. (eg, create wands with stacked metamagic effects without exceeding the wand's low level slot reqs.)

Since the magic of a magic item is very different than the one-off casting of a spellcaster, once the necessary rolls are successful in item creation, the resulting item would be able to routinely cast the spell for them in that manner. Say for instance, a staff (or wand).  This means that the dice roll fudgery of the sacred geometry feat need only be completed at item creation; the spell is then stored inside the staff, and gets the 10 charges. The creator is technically "able" to cast the spell that way, and thus can charge it every day, and has a boom-stick to fire it off with quickly.

Taking that feat, and combining it with item creation in this fashion could result in some very interesting (and likely VERY OP) consequences. (say, a wand of magic missile that is heightened, empowered, enlarged, etc... all at the base cost of magic missile, since the spell level is not raised by the additional effects. Wands get 50 charges off the bat, so constant attempts (and failures) to create wands with this feat would result in deadly sticks of doom that mostly negate the difficulty of using the feat, due to the number of charges granted on successful creation, as the number of charges granted in a wand mean you basically get 50 times the economy. The feat says "one, both, or all of the feats already gained" which means if you take this feat several times, each time taking 2 more metamagic feats, wands that shoot pure horror become a very real thing.)

Or, am I reading this incorrectly?

Another that could possibly be combined with this feat is Inscribe Magical Tattoo, which would allow the caster to "wear" several buff conveying "wondrous items" without interfering with actual magic item slot use.  Metamagic enhanced versions could make use of the sacred geometry feat without increasing the spell level.

Surely there is something to prevent abuse of this type, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on May 23, 2017, 09:34:32 am

Quote from: wierd on May 23, 2017, 07:39:13 am

Surely there is something to prevent abuse of this type, right?

We're talking about Pathfinder. Of course there isn't.

The main thing stopping you in the (many) instances where Pathfinder rules twist themselves into apocalyptic singularity is a DM ruling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 23, 2017, 10:20:55 am

Wands become absurdly OP if left as-is, in conjunction with abuse of this feat. I would suggest a house rule to limit abuse, or at the very least, make the person planning the abuse have to actually think about what they are trying to accomplish:


Wands:
For every 2 effects applied using this feat, reduce wand's created charge pool 50%.

EG, if they added Empower and Enlarge on what is otherwise a standard wand of magic missile, it only has 25 charges at creation, instead of 50, etc. If they add 2 more feats, it drops to 12 charges. Then 6. Then 3. This limits the maximum number of effects an abuser could saddle it with to 8 effects, which would reduce the charges of the wand to 3, greatly limiting the utility of attempting such a creation.

Not sure what to do about staves though. Only get 10 charge capacity, but they are rechargable. Maybe increase material costs and craft skill requirement by one component and one skill level for every 2 effects added??

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: milo christiansen on May 23, 2017, 12:08:38 pm

I finally did it! I got my Elements setting into good enough shape to run an actual game.

Due to my schedule it will run quite slowly, but that may be a good thing for people with limited time...

Anyway, the game thread is over here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164255.0).

Any suggestions for a first time GM?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 23, 2017, 12:15:25 pm

There's quite a bit of good advice spread across the thread, so I'd suggest reading at least the first ten pages or so, other than that some quick pointers:

1 ) NPCs make or break a game, good ones can save even the worst setting
2 ) If you make a ruling on something don't ever go back on it unless there is an extremely good reason
3 ) Try to understand what your players want from their experience and work with it (unless it is disruptive to the game)
4 ) You are in charge, what you say goes, but abusing that leads to an empty table
5 ) Consistency is the most important part of your job, this ties into everything else

Those are the important ones off the top of my head.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 23, 2017, 03:10:35 pm

Quote from: wierd on May 23, 2017, 07:39:13 am

Ok, I have a serious question now...

The "sacred geometry" feat listed earlier could be employed to tremendous effect, if paired with item creation, since metamagic effects can be imbued into magical items.  If used exclusively with item creation, (and taken several times), a very successful player character (has lots of money to burn) could create some pretty absurd magical items that technically only consume a low level spell slot. (eg, create wands with stacked metamagic effects without exceeding the wand's low level slot reqs.)

I try to avoid learning about PF (my group still plays 3.5 occasionally, it's similar enough to be very confusing) and the Paizo forum was surprisingly anti-helpful.  I was initially just trying to confirm that metamagic could be used in wands, and *most* of the posts I found implied it wasn't RAW but sounded fine.  Or just claimed it was fine with no explanation.  It is fine, of course:

Quote from: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Frankly I think that last sentence is terribly worded.  Some people argued it allows metamagic'd spells as long as the original spell was fourth level or less.  People's response was basically "Nah that sounds OP" or "That'd be pretty expensive though".

But back to the actual idea, sacred geometry...

Quote from: www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) [...] The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

That wording indicates to me that the spell isn't actually cast at creation, the slot is merely expended.  Sacred Geometry specifically takes place when the spell is cast.  If item creation did explicitly involve a spell being cast and "stored" (which I think might be how the "spell storing" enchantment works in 3.5) then it'd be pretty broken/questionable to have it multiplied 10 or 50 times.  But this is a different process, which simply expends the slot and a pile of materials (and several hours).

Now, could a sacred geometer attempt to add metamagic to a spell they cast through a wand...?
(Probably not)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 23, 2017, 03:28:08 pm

With the statement on item creation, it has no means of being fullfilled unless the spell is stored-- unless you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a normal spell slot, and have it prepared somehow.

IIRC, a few wondrous items (and some standard) allow the storage of spells like that-- Instead of casting the spell out into the world, they store it inside the item, where it resides in a special "extra" spell slot. They then could craft the wand with it, which would expend the slot. Convoluted, but looks possible.

Take for instance, the ring of spell storing.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-spell-storing/

DM will probably call shenanigans on that-- but the effort required to go through the process would take several days time to prepare such a wand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 23, 2017, 03:55:45 pm

Still remember the DM who nerfed Spell storing to uselessness by requiring that you touch the person with it... OR if it is a weapon of spell storing you must hit the person will a full on attack.

Well ok not useless but goodness did it feel like he just didn't want me using spell storage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 23, 2017, 04:10:26 pm

Spell storage is potentially very dangerous (to game balance), because a "very well prepared" caster could take time in town to overload their caster this way. (Say, wearing a headband of intellect to get extra slots, and two of these rings, loads up on metamagic enhanced versions of base spells in the rings, and puts a trump card type escape spell in the headband.) Such a caster would have 7 additional slots, 6 of which could be loaded with craziness, while still getting leveled list monsters appropriate to their level instead of how powerful they really are.

Either the DM has to start throwing harder monsters at the party, which is not similarly buffed out-- or they have to find a way to limit abuse.

I can only imagine the reaction that DM would have to somebody trying this absurd loophole I am trying to determine actually exists or not. (This is just my intrinsic nature as a curious hacker looking at a possible exploit vector, just because it is an exploit vector.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 23, 2017, 04:46:04 pm

Quote from: wierd on May 23, 2017, 04:10:26 pm

they have to find a way to limit abuse.

Simple.

If someone wants to do that, let them - and then the minute it gets abused to destroy any combat scenarios, you take the kid's toys away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: milo christiansen on May 23, 2017, 05:06:56 pm

That's what I plan to do. Allow anything, but if it sounds OP warn the player ahead of time that they had better not abuse it. If abused it gets nerfed. Simple.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 23, 2017, 05:29:15 pm

Simple.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 24, 2017, 12:21:01 am

I tend to build encoutners to deal with that. I had a barbarian one game (the legendary, infamous, Tyson-chan) who pretty much destroyed every encounter I had single handedly. I managed to deal with her damage reduction by adding more elemental abilities, and I dealt with the fuckton of damage by adding resistance to piericng/slashing/bludgeoning to a few enemies.

My DM for a game I played in learned that barbarians are very easy to handle after a quick chat after he sent a CR30 encounter after us because he thought my character was broken, and it didn't help that my DM added homebrew elements to the game that made things even more absurd. He had every enemy and every ally have access to a number of badges that essentailly were augmentations based on fire emblem. The ones I used was Vengeance (literally add half of the damage dealt to me dealt back to the enemy on a 19-20 on the die but it was from the last hit) and something else. He really went for less combat but more grand fights in his game, and god they were grand.

It all matters on finding ways to deal with your party. Party member likes using fireball? Use fire immune or fire resistant enemies. Party likes to launch your monsters into the air 100ft and drop them? Flying enemies! And so on and so on

HOWEVER, I feel pathfinder has the least amount of ways to deal with this without making players feel utterly useless or make other party members feel like they aren't good enough. I have one game where a character RESISTED ANTI MAGIC SPELLS. INCLUDING ANTI MAGIC FIELD. And he forgot about this ability because he was some Aasimar and never used it. It was supposed to let characters like the ranger and the rogue feel more like they were useful. No, instead, the guy rolls his save for the anti magic field and succeeds and casts a spell to summon a gold dragon to rampage the place. A REAL one. Worst part is, DM said he can't do that because he's never seen a dragon before (as they were going extinct in his world) and the guy proceeded to whine until he convinced the DM his lore can't happen

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 24, 2017, 04:37:07 am

Don't even get started on summoning shenanigans. As a veteran Pathfinder conjuration magic fan, I've seen just about all the abuses you can imagine. Including level 10 Paladins that can summon from the 9th level Cleric spell list.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2017, 06:35:05 pm

Aight, I'd like some build advice.

I want to make a Pathfinder Witch, focused on healing. There are two archetypes that lend themselves to being a healer, and I cannot decide between the two.

The first one, Hedge Witch, possesses a cleric-like ability to convert their prepared spells into healing spells, starting at level 4. At level 8 they gain "emphatic healing", which means that if an ally fails their poison or disease saves the witch can choose to be affected by said poison/disease rather than their ally. Probably comes in handy if your tank or DPS gets hit with some debilitating disease.
Hedge Witch loses two Hex slots for these abilities, the ones normally gained at levels 4 and 8.

The second option is Herb Witch. This archetype can craft what are essentially cure-alls from level 1; free potions that can heal any disease or poison (at least those that allow saving throws), and treat a small number of status effects. Their downsides are that the witch can only have so many (so they can't just spend a week crafting a huge stockpile of them), and they only take effect if applied by the witch that crafted them (so no sharing them out). They can also substitute Profession rolls for Craft rolls.
To gain these abilities, the Herb Witch loses her first Hex choice and also must take the Cauldron Hex at level 2. This means that the Witch loses access to the extremely useful Healing Hex (and any number of other hexes) until level 4 at the earliest.

Of course, I could just run a standard witch. Thoughts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 26, 2017, 06:40:47 pm

Herb Witch, I would say. Plus something that lets you move around the battlefield really fast. ...That's a thing, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2017, 06:44:21 pm

They can learn how to fly...plus I'm sure there's something in their spell list.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2017, 06:47:23 pm

What effects are permitted to be brewed into the freebie potions?  If there are any that boost speed, that could be beneficial. 

Rather, I suppose I should ask:  Are the potions strictly curative, or are buff potions also on the menu?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2017, 06:56:30 pm

If you're talking about the free cure-alls, they're purely restorative. They can (attempt to) treat a single disease, poison, or status effect per use.

The Cauldron Hex does give a Witch the Brew Potion feat for free though, and those potions can be infused with plenty of different spells. So buff potions are available, though they cost a not-insubstantial sum each time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2017, 07:06:25 pm

I find that rather silly, personally-- but that is just me exercising some domain knowledge.
(Learned all kinds of fun stuff when I studied magical practice as an independent study of anthropology. One of the avenues I explored was creation of tinctures, potions, poultices, and the like.)

Some very effective "Speed buffing" potions can be brewed very inexpensively IRL, if you dont mind the side effects. Take for instance, a slight bit of a toxic mushroom (Amanita Muscaria), added to a tea made from Ephredra.  Dark age speed in a bottle right there.  Side effects include euphoria, and hallucenations. Routine use can lead to heart and liver damage.

This is exactly the kind of thing I would expect an herbalism specialist witch to know.  As such, I consider the "Cure alls only" restriction absurdly out of touch with the archetype they are going for there. But hey, their game, not mine. 


Maybe I should just sit down one day and crank out a couple fun lists of things that could be cooked up using just a tea kettle and some wild plants some time, and leave it as a community source book. Unless you need to use gold as a reagent, I really don't see a valid reason to require GP expense on potion creation-- aside from if you need to pay somebody to do some ingredient gathering, or to perform some of the process steps for you.  It should be mostly be initial equipment costs, (you DO need some specialist equipment to brew the more interesting potions from dark age literature), and encumbrance from carrying that stuff around.

I get a little annoyed with some of these games' rules sometimes.  (Yes, I understand the gold requirement is to stop you from brewing shitloads of potions and generally ruining the DM's day. Personally, I think that same effect can be obtained by forcing the PC to buy the required bottles to hold the potions in, and forcing them to have to lug equipment around. Abuse of potion would be more interesting to deal with by adding consequences to misuse, such as the side effects, and effects of heavy use, like the potion mentioned above. Not all potions can be stored in clear glass bottles, as some degrade from exposure to light, and need to be in dark brown glass- others can react with metal oxides in colored glass bottles, so that's a very reasonable requirement for some potions right there that would naturally limit abuse. Adding encumbrance for empty bottles, and having the skill tree to make glass bottles not be included in potion maker classes would also naturally limit it in a more organic and less contrived way.  Basically, I really think this can be handled much better, and the game rule makers are either covering for ignorance, or are just being lazy.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2017, 07:11:34 pm

Well first off, these potions are infused with actual, workable magic and spells. No downsides or side effects. It would be the equivalent of chewing a particular root and being instantly cured of cancer or blindness.

Secondly, herb witches do get some pretty nice bonuses to Profession (Herbalist), which would almost certainly give them bonuses on knowing the properties of various plants and fungi. It's just that magic is typically more effective.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on May 26, 2017, 07:25:17 pm

Oh, most of the potions you can read about in dark age (and older) literature are based on sympathetic magic.  For instance, a mandrake root looks like a little human. This resemblance is where its 'magical power' comes from.  Likewise with some fungi that look like a penis, or fruits that look like a vagina.  Additionally, the process used to produce the potion can have "contagion" effects, which are also sympathetic magic. (Brewed on a full moon, for instance- Or made using swamp water from a toxic marsh.)

Imbuing a liquid with a magical force through ritual is more in line with shamanism and or being a cleric, at least in historical contexts. See for instance, holy water. (It's ordinary water that has been blessed.)

In a world where magic is a real force, then in addition to the chemical properties of a plant, there would be its active and sympathetic magical components as well, stemming from where/how it was grown, and how well the plant's physical makeup resembles the sympathetic feature it is being used against.

That's assuming you actually look at historical accounts and treatises on magic from across human history as a baseline for your magic system, instead of just winging it. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 26, 2017, 08:33:28 pm

Dig up 1st or 2nd edition AD&D and their potion miscibility rules if you needed to nerf potion spam.

Basically, it was a table or two to see what happens when you mixed potions together.  Either one or both would get cancelled out, one or both would somehow have better or worse effects, stereotypical chemistry explosions, and other stuffs.  Every potion mix required a roll, even if they were the same "kind" of potion, on grounds that wizards and such didn't exactly practice the same or even consistent recipes.  The real fun began when someone drank more than one potion in too fast of time, as the potions would mix in their stomach and require a roll on the chart.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 26, 2017, 09:11:58 pm

So that's one vote for Herb Witch. Does anyone else have some more immediately useful input?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 26, 2017, 09:19:54 pm

Sorry. Can't really help. I never played a witch, so I wouldn't know how any of it works.

Unrelated, but do other DMs here being recurring characters from game to game? I'm sure it happens but not many seem to really talk about it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 27, 2017, 01:03:54 pm

Sometimes, I have a stable of NPCs who see frequent use in my RIFTS games, but I generally roll whole new sets for D&D (but then, I'm usually creating a whole new setting when I run a new campaign in D&D).

I don't usually allow players to 'port' their characters to a new game, as I often advance time by a large margin between campaigns set in the same world (and I don't allow existing characters to be used in a new setting).

As for why people don't talk about it, imagine how someone acts when they talk about their favorite character, then multiply it by the number of NPCs.  It gets old real quick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 27, 2017, 01:23:20 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 26, 2017, 09:19:54 pm

Sorry. Can't really help. I never played a witch, so I wouldn't know how any of it works.

Unrelated, but do other DMs here being recurring characters from game to game? I'm sure it happens but not many seem to really talk about it

Only in very minor roles.
Major characters? No.

Quote from: Sirus on May 26, 2017, 09:11:58 pm

So that's one vote for Herb Witch. Does anyone else have some more immediately useful input?

To be contrary I'd vote Hedge Witch.

Quote from: wierd on May 26, 2017, 07:06:25 pm

Maybe I should just sit down one day and crank out a couple fun lists of things that could be cooked up using just a tea kettle and some wild plants some time, and leave it as a community source book. Unless you need to use gold as a reagent, I really don't see a valid reason to require GP expense on potion creation-- aside from if you need to pay somebody to do some ingredient gathering, or to perform some of the process steps for you.  It should be mostly be initial equipment costs, (you DO need some specialist equipment to brew the more interesting potions from dark age literature), and encumbrance from carrying that stuff around.

I get a little annoyed with some of these games' rules sometimes.  (Yes, I understand the gold requirement is to stop you from brewing shitloads of potions and generally ruining the DM's day. Personally, I think that same effect can be obtained by forcing the PC to buy the required bottles to hold the potions in, and forcing them to have to lug equipment around. Abuse of potion would be more interesting to deal with by adding consequences to misuse, such as the side effects, and effects of heavy use, like the potion mentioned above. Not all potions can be stored in clear glass bottles, as some degrade from exposure to light, and need to be in dark brown glass- others can react with metal oxides in colored glass bottles, so that's a very reasonable requirement for some potions right there that would naturally limit abuse. Adding encumbrance for empty bottles, and having the skill tree to make glass bottles not be included in potion maker classes would also naturally limit it in a more organic and less contrived way.  Basically, I really think this can be handled much better, and the game rule makers are either covering for ignorance, or are just being lazy.)

That just sounds like a overly finicky pain in the ass, to be honest. Deeper simulation isn't always better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 27, 2017, 02:28:51 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 26, 2017, 09:19:54 pm

Unrelated, but do other DMs here being recurring characters from game to game? I'm sure it happens but not many seem to really talk about it

Sometimes GMs have NPC in-jokes that move from game to game and from character to character. I had a case where one game had an initially throwaway NPC named after the GM (but who turned out to be one of the more interesting ones in the campaign with some development), who I ported to a game that I ran with that GM as a player at his personal request, and who appeared later in a third game with that GM as a throwaway NPC again. As with many in-jokes, it can get pretty convoluted, but then that's the fun of in-jokes to begin with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 27, 2017, 07:49:32 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on May 27, 2017, 01:03:54 pm

Sometimes, I have a stable of NPCs who see frequent use in my RIFTS games, but I generally roll whole new sets for D&D (but then, I'm usually creating a whole new setting when I run a new campaign in D&D).

I don't usually allow players to 'port' their characters to a new game, as I often advance time by a large margin between campaigns set in the same world (and I don't allow existing characters to be used in a new setting).

As for why people don't talk about it, imagine how someone acts when they talk about their favorite character, then multiply it by the number of NPCs.  It gets old real quick.

Reason being I tend to have an overarching story that is woven into every world i make. Eventually, players who I deemed strong enough to try it could start to look more into it, and it goes into a large quest where even the strongest and grandest of players feel as if this is bigger than they are.

The only recurring thing that happens is one character that, at some point or another, will appear, and they're always under a different name and usually slightly noted if at all because they clearly look off being from another plane (he originates from eberron). Players would at some point, uncover a plot point that mentions that this character isn't what he appears to be. I've only had one party think he's more than some random NPC, and that's because one of the party members f***ed with him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on May 27, 2017, 09:18:10 pm

I don't remember what it was, but I remember I used to sneak a guy with the same name into every D&D game I ran here. It's been so long I forgot who it was, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 27, 2017, 09:27:15 pm

A friend of mine would always include a specific tavern at some point, The Fat Dryad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on May 27, 2017, 11:45:18 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 26, 2017, 09:19:54 pm

Unrelated, but do other DMs here being recurring characters from game to game? I'm sure it happens but not many seem to really talk about it

I've got one trickster-type deity who's been in three of my campaigns thus far, under different names and styles. He's only really been a major character in one of them and exists only as a time ghost or a legend in the other two.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 28, 2017, 05:37:34 pm

Information on the upcoming Shifter in Pathfinder.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA4uGbAUQAI7-8Z.jpg)

For those that can't read it, it's summed up as:
Full BAB
Self-Buffer
Primarily uses Natural Attacks
Uses Wildshape along with a dozen different Animal Aspects, eventually turning into animals and mixing animal aspects

The hype is real, it seems. I've a Wish-list of my own for the class.
Main one is for a Barbarian-style Archetype for a Rage-Shaper.
Also ones for different creature types than the apparent default of Animal/Magical Beast, like Aberrations for some body horror, or Elementals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on May 29, 2017, 03:15:20 am

Quote from: wierd on May 26, 2017, 07:06:25 pm

I find that rather silly, personally-- but that is just me exercising some domain knowledge.
(Learned all kinds of fun stuff when I studied magical practice as an independent study of anthropology. One of the avenues I explored was creation of tinctures, potions, poultices, and the like.)

Some very effective "Speed buffing" potions can be brewed very inexpensively IRL, if you dont mind the side effects. Take for instance, a slight bit of a toxic mushroom (Amanita Muscaria), added to a tea made from Ephredra.  Dark age speed in a bottle right there.  Side effects include euphoria, and hallucenations. Routine use can lead to heart and liver damage.

This is exactly the kind of thing I would expect an herbalism specialist witch to know.  As such, I consider the "Cure alls only" restriction absurdly out of touch with the archetype they are going for there. But hey, their game, not mine. 


Maybe I should just sit down one day and crank out a couple fun lists of things that could be cooked up using just a tea kettle and some wild plants some time, and leave it as a community source book. Unless you need to use gold as a reagent, I really don't see a valid reason to require GP expense on potion creation-- aside from if you need to pay somebody to do some ingredient gathering, or to perform some of the process steps for you.  It should be mostly be initial equipment costs, (you DO need some specialist equipment to brew the more interesting potions from dark age literature), and encumbrance from carrying that stuff around.

I get a little annoyed with some of these games' rules sometimes.  (Yes, I understand the gold requirement is to stop you from brewing shitloads of potions and generally ruining the DM's day. Personally, I think that same effect can be obtained by forcing the PC to buy the required bottles to hold the potions in, and forcing them to have to lug equipment around. Abuse of potion would be more interesting to deal with by adding consequences to misuse, such as the side effects, and effects of heavy use, like the potion mentioned above. Not all potions can be stored in clear glass bottles, as some degrade from exposure to light, and need to be in dark brown glass- others can react with metal oxides in colored glass bottles, so that's a very reasonable requirement for some potions right there that would naturally limit abuse. Adding encumbrance for empty bottles, and having the skill tree to make glass bottles not be included in potion maker classes would also naturally limit it in a more organic and less contrived way.  Basically, I really think this can be handled much better, and the game rule makers are either covering for ignorance, or are just being lazy.)

I'd personally be interested in such rules, since I'm currently running a campaign that features magical drugs to some extent, and I'd like some more rules for them. I originally tried looking up for some ideas about how to handle dosage, but apparently most game designers seem to think that addiction is the only important aspect of drugs and don't have rules for how someone could unintentionally overdose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2017, 03:17:19 am

Quote

Full BAB

Honestly... I am starting to wonder if outside pure casters... that, that should be how it goes.

If the 3/4ths BAB is a flawed system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 29, 2017, 05:16:07 am

Does the class cap at 9th level spells? 1/2 BAB.
Does the class cap at 6th level spells? 3/4 BAB.
Does the class cap at 4th level spells? Full BAB.

Seems fair to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2017, 05:25:57 am

Quote from: Jimmy on May 29, 2017, 05:16:07 am

Does the class cap at 9th level spells? 1/2 BAB.
Does the class cap at 6th level spells? 3/4 BAB.
Does the class cap at 4th level spells? Full BAB.

Seems fair to me.

That system ALSO is highly flawed. Since often times you completely outclass lower level spells. As well quality is far better than quantity. I believe Pathfinder, and to a much further extent 5th edition, tried to alleviate this by making the class spells scale appropriately for that level (So a final tier Paladin spell... Is a good spell for a Paladin to use)

As well "Fair" isn't even close since ultimately what you are doing is making people DOUBLE PAY. They ALREADY take a penalty to combat ability and magic ability, but then you add on more penalties onto of it. Would a Wizard with full BAB be a skilled swordsman? No...

AS WELL there are good reasons why a Wizard or Sorcerer might get 1/2 BAB beyond being a magician and "Benefiting from magic". Since they use touch spells which ignore AC (And VERY few enemies have half-way decent touch AC... especially past CR:7).

Or rather... It isn't about Fair, think of it this way. HOW does 3/4 BAB or 1/2 BAB enhance the experience if it doesn't, ultimately, balance the class other then "But what about me?". What Pathfinder eventually learned was that these traditions were just that, traditions... The same kind that used to say that each class could only reach a certain level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 29, 2017, 08:01:59 am

I'm not convinced on the usefulness of touch spells myself. Sure most characters have pretty poor Touch AC, but if my (shaky) reading of the rules is correct, in order to actually touch them you need to risk an AoO from the thing you want to touch and anyone else in threat range. When you're an unarmored mage facing a monster with most-likely ludicrous STR, getting hit is something to be avoided if at all possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 29, 2017, 09:28:28 am

1. Cast touch spell with Standard Action outside of enemy threat range
2. Approach enemy with Move Action
3. Touch enemy with Free Action
4. ???
5. Profit

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 29, 2017, 09:50:07 am

Oh, is that how it works? I thought you had to cast the spell while standing right next to your target and thus trigger AoOs :-\

I told you my reading of the rules was shaky.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 29, 2017, 09:59:40 am

This seems like the best way to do it (in Pathfinder) from what I've seen, since you can either move - cast - touch, cast - move - touch, or cast - touch - move with most Standard Action touch spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 29, 2017, 10:00:57 am

Or get your familiar to do it, that's also a popular option.

Oh, and there's also ranged touch attacks for rays and what have you, those get pretty nasty when used against you but hey, you can also return the favor with certain spells!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 29, 2017, 10:03:36 am

Just don't use a ranged touch spell within threat range, or you get two AoO's against you: one for casting the spell and one for making the actual attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 29, 2017, 10:19:22 am

I think my misunderstanding was thinking that the cast and the touch were a single standard action.

And yeah, I know about ranged touch spells. With those it makes *sense* to stay away from the baddies while casting :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on May 29, 2017, 10:41:50 am

The Magus also gets a class ability that lets them cast a touch spell as part of their melee attack sequence. It's a popular option to add a Shocking Grasp spell onto your attack for an extra 5d6 damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 29, 2017, 12:19:40 pm

Quote from: Sirus on May 29, 2017, 10:19:22 am

I think my misunderstanding was thinking that the cast and the touch were a single standard action.

And yeah, I know about ranged touch spells. With those it makes *sense* to stay away from the baddies while casting :P

That luxury is in 4e and beyond. Mind you, casting in 5e doesn't provoke Attacks of opportunity.

In other news, I found a copy of D&D Basic Rules Cyclopedia and I'm laughing at how weird this gets.

Why is wizardry a spell? Why can clerics only cast it? Why doesn't it show up in the spell list!? Why is ELF a class and can only level up to 10 when other classes level to 36? Why are clerics only able to heal at second level? Why are there only 3 alignments!?

It's random stuff like this that makes me laugh hysterically.

The goal is to study up on it and run a one off adventure wth my two groups of friends working together to try and get through the bullshit that is first edition.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on May 29, 2017, 12:40:21 pm

The "only three alignments" thing was always kinda confusing. On one hand it seems more morally grey because it cuts out the good-evil dichotomy, but on the other hand IIRC evil guys in published stuff tended to get slapped with "chaotic" regardless of their stance on the law.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 29, 2017, 02:11:39 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 29, 2017, 12:19:40 pm

Quote from: Sirus on May 29, 2017, 10:19:22 am

I think my misunderstanding was thinking that the cast and the touch were a single standard action.

And yeah, I know about ranged touch spells. With those it makes *sense* to stay away from the baddies while casting :P

That luxury is in 4e and beyond. Mind you, casting in 5e doesn't provoke Attacks of opportunity.

Cast-move-touch is in at least 3.5e and beyond:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#touchSpellsinCombat

I don't think we even noticed that trick though, my cleric usually made the fairly generous concentration checks to "cast defensively" and avoid AoO.  Also tried to start fights with a held touch attack in addition to the standard buffs (thanks to high spot/listen we usually had a couple rounds).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 29, 2017, 06:31:48 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 29, 2017, 02:11:39 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 29, 2017, 12:19:40 pm

Quote from: Sirus on May 29, 2017, 10:19:22 am

I think my misunderstanding was thinking that the cast and the touch were a single standard action.

And yeah, I know about ranged touch spells. With those it makes *sense* to stay away from the baddies while casting :P

That luxury is in 4e and beyond. Mind you, casting in 5e doesn't provoke Attacks of opportunity.

Cast-move-touch is in at least 3.5e and beyond:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#touchSpellsinCombat

I don't think we even noticed that trick though, my cleric usually made the fairly generous concentration checks to "cast defensively" and avoid AoO.  Also tried to start fights with a held touch attack in addition to the standard buffs (thanks to high spot/listen we usually had a couple rounds).

Not cast-move-touch, the cast and touch was one action and only provoked AoO once. Plus, aren't AoO only once per round unless you have a feat?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 29, 2017, 06:40:03 pm

I dunno, that link disagrees:

Quote

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 29, 2017, 06:46:46 pm

[ninja'd]
I was afraid I was misunderstanding, I used to play a lot of 3.5e but not as much recently (NWoD), phew.

Quote from: From that SRD section

You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.

And yeah, typical enemies can only take one AoO per round unless they have Combat Reflexes.


Unrelated but confusing, my group and I are currently considering 5th edition a bit.  We've heard good things, but turns out none of us have really gone into it since the alpha (and it turns out things have changed a bit from the alpha).  There's a lot of adjustment necessary, we're seeing.

But seriously, is it just us, or are humans pathetically bad?  +1 to every attribute seems pretty awful when the other classes get 2-3 points in important stats.  On top of lists of useful abilities.  Tieflings in particular seem OP as hell (hehe).

Halflings also seem to have gotten it bad...  Out of all the races, they chose the thief race to join humanity in not having darkvision?  Also they're "usually lawful good" lol.

There's a variant which gives humans back the skill bonus (proficiency) and feat, but I compared it to default half elves:
"They give up a second proficiency, +2 CHA, darkvision, immunity to sleep, and advantage vs charm...  for one feat"

On the other hand, attributes are apparently capped at 20 in most ways.  That sure is weird.  I guess that makes it less important to beeline your important stats, since they'll just cap out from the copious attribute points from levelling.  And from feats!?  It's so weird...  Would appreciate help migrating from 3.5e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 29, 2017, 07:21:08 pm

Yeah 5e really doesn't have the stat ballooning of earlier editions, ACs don't skyrocket as high as you'd expect, and even weak enemies can be a surprisingly dangerous threat to all but the highest levelled characters. I know our level 6 party got totally fucked by a gang of level 1 kobolds who used the deadly tactic of "standing where we couldn't get us and making ten times as many attacks into the party as the party made out at them. Once casters start getting serious AOE that goes away a bit though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2017, 08:15:53 pm

Which is kind of one reason I love 5e. The entire monster manual is useful to you pretty much no matter what level your characters are at (well... ok a monster can be TOO powerful).

You don't have to turn them into Troops or Swarms (and if you do, it is for the unique effect they would have).

Or rather... Armies in 5e are armies. I know people don't like that, but in terms of handling threat and the flow of gameplay it is preferable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 29, 2017, 08:26:08 pm

5e seems to be the amalgamate of 1st edition, 3.5 and 4e. And personally, I really like it. I just think more content should be put in if you're only using the PHB. I reccomend looking for a copy of Volo's Guide to Monsters, Sword Coast Adventure Guide, and Elemental Evil handbooks, or at least the material for players covered in it, as well as looking into the unearthed arcana (but be VERY careful of the material there. Some of it is unbalanced).

The game feels simple enough to hop right in but complex enough to have players feel like they have full control and aren't stuck with certain abilities or whatnot.

Feats are only given at 4th level, which they can get in place of the +1 to two scores or +2 to one score. I actually prefer the feats myself; they're very much worth it. And with many of the feats actually are multiple feats in one, it really seems better

As someone who plays nothing BUT humans, I actually find the human default to be actually pretty good. It may not be a fact of "get better with your prime requisite" but more "everything gets a little better". And that +1 can turn your +2 modifier to a +3, or get you enough push to have you get there at level 4 through a feat or the +1/+2. I actually turned a pretty "meh" human wizard into one who's pretty decent thanks to that +1 to all. It made him have +2 to dex, +1 to strength, +1 to con and +4 to int, all thanks to carefully distributed scores.

I reccomend giving it a try. I do suggest that whoever DM's should study up though. I got sucker punched by how OP the barbarian is at early game against the generic level 1 enemies, and how amazing a potion of giant's strength of any level is when you're a melee warrior

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 29, 2017, 08:30:21 pm

Yeah the barbarian at low levels kicks immense ass when he only gets in a couple of fights a day, same with the Paladin and their limited pot of super deadly shit they only get a handful of pops a day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on May 29, 2017, 08:58:00 pm

I really like 5e from my experiences with it. Much preferable to 3.5e, I'd say.

Base humans are a little underwhelming, but variant humans are pretty great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on May 29, 2017, 09:01:00 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 29, 2017, 06:46:46 pm

There's a variant which gives humans back the skill bonus (proficiency) and feat, but I compared it to default half elves:
"They give up a second proficiency, +2 CHA, darkvision, immunity to sleep, and advantage vs charm...  for one feat"

Feats are pretty rare. They are basically worth two stat points anyway (since that's what you need to pay to get one) and humans can get them quite a few levels before anyone else. Humans also don't really start any weaker for their +1s insteand of +2s, since 16=17 as far as most things go, which means humans are only weaker stat wise after the first attribute bonus (assuming the non human wouldn't have spent it on a feat.) where they'll be at +3 instead of +4 in their secondary attribute. Of course, humans are missing out on all the cool miscellaneous bonuses, but it could very well be worth it to get early access to some feat. Predicated on them actually having a feat they want of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on May 29, 2017, 11:07:30 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on May 29, 2017, 12:19:40 pm

In other news, I found a copy of D&D Basic Rules Cyclopedia and I'm laughing at how weird this gets.

That's cool. I don't have direct experience with older D&D versions, but I have read a lot about them online.

Quote

Why is wizardry a spell? Why can clerics only cast it? Why doesn't it show up in the spell list!?

This I spell I haven't heard much about. I don't have a copy of Rules Cyclopedia, but, if Dark Dungeons, which is based off of it, is any indication, it seems to exist so that clerics can use wizard equipment, so there wouldn't be much point in wizards being able to cast it. As for why it doesn't show up in the cleric spell list, my guess is poor editing.

Quote

Why is ELF a class and can only level up to 10 when other classes level to 36?

As Basic D&D was intended to be a simpler version, it did away with the idea of characters having both race and class, and made it so that non-human races were their own class. And it was intended that demihumans were supposed to be more powerful than humans but with less potential, so they start off strong but eventually reach their limit before humans do (many people argued on forums that this wasn't much of a limit, and in most games people ignored racial level limits one way or another).
 

Quote

Why are clerics only able to heal at second level?

I don't remember if I found a good answer for this. Many people said it was to do with old-school D&D being harder, though it's curious that this rule is present only in Basic D&D, and not Advanced D&D, which was supposed to be the more hardcore version.
 

Quote

Why are there only 3 alignments!?

This has to do with the original inspiration of D&D alignments, in which they were not moral proclivities, but, rather, Law and Chaos were basically two factions (though it might be just as proper to describe them as forces of nature) that waged war across the universe. In some D&D versions there were even alignment languages that everyone of a particular alignment knew, because they were all on the same team.

Quote

It's random stuff like this that makes me laugh hysterically.

The goal is to study up on it and run a one off adventure wth my two groups of friends working together to try and get through the bullshit that is first edition.

Awesome! Though, fyi, Basic D&D isn't technically first edition. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons) It was published at the same time as 1st Edition AD&D as an introductory version. Also, there were actually several versions of Basic D&D, though the Rules Cyclopedia is basically a compiled version of all of them except the Immortals rules, which many people didn't like anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arcvasti on May 29, 2017, 11:21:59 pm

My favourite part of AD&D is that Monks aren't allowed to use oil. There's no explanation of what this entails and no other class is limited in this fashion. There's a table with an Oil column that says "Yes" for all the other classes and "No" for Monk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 30, 2017, 12:14:01 am

Honestly I liked how Hackmaster spoke about racial level limits.

"Yeah, demihumans can only get to such and such level, but don't worry about it, your character will probably die before it even becomes an issue."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on May 30, 2017, 12:19:08 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on May 30, 2017, 12:14:01 am

Honestly I liked how Hackmaster spoke about racial level limits.

"Yeah, demihumans can only get to such and such level, but don't worry about it, your character will probably die before it even becomes an issue."

You know :P unless you started at an advanced level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 30, 2017, 08:12:02 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on May 30, 2017, 12:14:01 am

Honestly I liked how Hackmaster spoke about racial level limits.

"Yeah, demihumans can only get to such and such level, but don't worry about it, your character will probably die before it even becomes an issue."

That's what I'm guessing on. Especially since what I'm planning is gonna be a one off.

Not to mention most of the demihuman classes have like double or triple the regular amount of XP needed to level

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 08:43:20 am

Quote from: Arcvasti on May 29, 2017, 11:21:59 pm

My favourite part of AD&D is that Monks aren't allowed to use oil. There's no explanation of what this entails and no other class is limited in this fashion. There's a table with an Oil column that says "Yes" for all the other classes and "No" for Monk.

Well, monks commonly only have one weapon they could apply oil to and you don't want them doing that sort of thing, it dilutes their monk powers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 30, 2017, 08:56:02 am

They don't want the monks to be oiled up when they start wrestling with the enemy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 09:21:09 am

Gives the abbot conniptions, it does.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 30, 2017, 09:49:28 am

So, monks weren't allowed to use oil lanterns then?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on May 30, 2017, 09:57:36 am

Does... does this mean that monks can't fry food?! D:

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on May 30, 2017, 10:35:06 am

So, I'm switching states at the end of June, and that means saying an incredibly slurred form of 'God be with you' to my IRL D&D group. Considering that most of the members are also moving away, I've been kicking around the idea of doing an online game to keep us all together as we pursue our respective careers.

Of course, I'll probably open it up to the lovely B12 crew as well, since I always need more bodies to desecrate.

I'm most familiar with 3.5, and that's the version the crew is used to, but I know there's some jank in the rules that gets smoothed out in 5. I like reading character sheets, it's always fun to see what people build, but it would be kinda nice to not have to go: "I know savage species is an official rule book, and I know they think it's a LA+0, but I'm not letting you be a Baleen Whaleman*. No.",  as I did last time I wanted people to go a little more crazy with their character designs. So I suppose I'm open to other editions, but I'm reluctant to leave my edition comfort zone. I know most of the jank, and I'm fairly used to the tricks needed to say 'Okay, you can do that, but here's the catch' instead of just plain 'No'.

I'm a bit torn for settings. I've got two that I've been wanting to run for a while now- one set in a world where the original heroes of prophecy done fucked up severely and most of the world is run by a dracolich and his private vampire court, and the other set on an island filled with mysterious ruins that a completely natural and not malevolent earthquake recently opened up to shipping travel. The former has more hooks that I can push for party cohesion, the latter allows a bit more freeform exploration and murder-bonering.

That all in mind, what kind of game do people recommend (and what advice do people have) for my first major dip into online-only DMing?


*For reference, the Baleen Whaleman starts Large, with +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, and +9 Natural Armor.  There are no penalties, unless you count being large as a penalty.  I'm pretty sure someone was high when they penned in LA+0. Aside from a constant need to stuff one's face with krill, they don't really have much of a drop side, or a decent reason why they haven't conquered the world with their bulging whale pecs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 10:49:14 am

On one hand 5E is easier to run and probably a better system overall once you learn to play fast and loose with it (easier to do theater of the mind with it as well).

On the other hand oh my god I can't bear the itch to play in a good 3.5 game, I've got so many concepts that aren't possible in Pathfinder!

Or take something weirder, like Dungeon World or something. You can theoretically do anything in a Powered By The Apocalypse game and they're pretty good for off-the-cuff bullshit.

Oh, and while you can occasionally get good randos, you definitely want people you know as a significant part of your group. Reliable folk are hard to find sometimes, but when you have them, try to use them when possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on May 30, 2017, 10:51:49 am

I wouldn't mind playing 3.5 again one day. Still haven't gotten around to playing 5E though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: heydude6 on May 30, 2017, 10:54:33 am

I'm assuming this will be some kind of roll20 game rather than pbp. Still haven't actually played a game of 5E but I've read the entire book (minus the spells) several times and made a few character sheets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on May 30, 2017, 11:06:31 am

I would say 5e personally would be best. Nothing to ridiculously stupid to throw you off your game and its a good starting point. Plus, roll20 has specific stuff put for 5e already, so thats nice.

If you do go with bay12, I suggest NOT doing roll20, as I've noticed people on bay12 can tend to drop off and never talk to you again (no idea why, but it happens).

Just be aware that running an online D&D game gets ridiculous in some cases. I've actually had a lot of problems in the online game I played because the DM brought in online friends he never met and it turned from a motley group of 4 mercenaries running a small guild, to a group of 5 bandits and rogues plus one do-gooder who are stuck saving the world because a world ending power got mad at them. And thats just from players coming and going. If you get a good group together, you're good.

I only suggest PBP if you can contantly monitor and update it without people dropping off. It really sucks waiting for people, but at the same time, you don't have to worry about putting aside 8 hours a week to do a session; it just goes when you let it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on May 30, 2017, 11:07:22 am

Quote from: Draignean on May 30, 2017, 10:35:06 am

*For reference, the Baleen Whaleman starts Large, with +8 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, and +9 Natural Armor.  There are no penalties, unless you count being large as a penalty.  I'm pretty sure someone was high when they penned in LA+0. Aside from a constant need to stuff one's face with krill, they don't really have much of a drop side, or a decent reason why they haven't conquered the world with their bulging whale pecs.

I guess three levels of monstrous humanoid is sorta a downside. But yeah, savage species feels to me like they didn't try. I guess because it's suppose to be a general use template to apply to anything (which of course doesn't work, so they didn't try to make it work? That's the most generous reason I can think of for why it is how it is.)

Too bad, not easy to be the half fay catboi you know you need to be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 11:08:27 am

If you have 3 levels of monstrous humanoid, doesn't that imply an LA of at least +3?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on May 30, 2017, 11:10:17 am

No, LA is different from getting HD. HD are actual things that give you hp and skill points and feats and can presumably interact with whatever systems normally interact with HD. LA is just an albatross around your exp gain and ecl.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 11:26:18 am

I know they're different things, but what I meant there was that if you have racial HD you should have a level adjustment as well. For instance, if I leaf through Races of Stone, the feral gargun has 2 racial HD and an LA+2, while the stonechild has the same 2 racial HD and also LA+4.

So it's clearly not one-to-one, but the only thing I can picture there is some kind of terrible typo. Or possibly nobody really pays attention to miscellaneous races anyway (since the only thing they're really good for is NPC fodder since those don't give a shit about LA to begin with).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on May 30, 2017, 11:29:24 am

Oh. Well. No. That's not how it works.

The non pc races really aren't typically balanced for actual play (at least in my opinion for most games, obviously for some games they are fine) so you more often see a mix of hd and la on high hd races simply because everything gets a lot of la slapped on it. But it's not a requirement that HD and LA go together I'm pretty sure. Just... Well, extremely common.

Edit: Although thinking about it, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head other then the savage species ones of races with +0 la and more then 1hd. So I guess it could be some sorta unwritten rule or something that whoever made the savage species didn't follow. That'd make sense. I don't think it's like, literally a rule of hd in any way. But yeah I get what you mean that it's a clear trend I guess... I can think of some races that have more (even way way more) hd then they have LA though. So 3 hd doesn't necessarily imply at least 3 la.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on May 30, 2017, 11:36:42 am

Quote from: highmax28 on May 30, 2017, 11:06:31 am

I would say 5e personally would be best. Nothing to ridiculously stupid to throw you off your game and its a good starting point. Plus, roll20 has specific stuff put for 5e already, so thats nice.

If you do go with bay12, I suggest NOT doing roll20, as I've noticed people on bay12 can tend to drop off and never talk to you again (no idea why, but it happens).

Just be aware that running an online D&D game gets ridiculous in some cases. I've actually had a lot of problems in the online game I played because the DM brought in online friends he never met and it turned from a motley group of 4 mercenaries running a small guild, to a group of 5 bandits and rogues plus one do-gooder who are stuck saving the world because a world ending power got mad at them. And thats just from players coming and going. If you get a good group together, you're good.

Basically, I have two people who are pretty much guaranteed to continue, one more who will if the time schedule works for him (he moved to Japan), and a couple others who may, or may not, keep playing. I'd ideally love to get a group of 5 players, because five is a good number, and thus I can cherry pick my players pretty well. *Maniacal Laugh*

I'm really digging the Roll20 game I'm in that Fniff is DMing, but that's both a function of a good DM and a system that lets you forget you're using a system most of the time. PBP I've done quite a bit of, but it doesn't lend quite the same rapid-fire that you get in live chat games.

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 11:26:18 am

So it's clearly not one-to-one, but the only thing I can picture there is some kind of terrible typo. Or possibly nobody really pays attention to miscellaneous races anyway (since the only thing they're really good for is NPC fodder since those don't give a shit about LA to begin with).

Sadly, this is not the case. There are a half-dozen other anthropomorphic races from savage species with CRAZY GOOD stat bonuses in exchange for LA+0. Most of them have a few penalties as well, but table A-58 of that book is a Munchkin's dream (You want am LA+0, +10 starting Dex bonus? We've got it!). Hell, even Apeman, which you'd think would be mostly baseline human, gets LA+0, +2 Str, +6 Dex, and +4 Wis.

I maintain the writer was a drunk furry. There's nothing wrong with furries, but being part animal should not make you intrinsically superior to all forms of life.

Don't even get me started on wolverines having a CHA bonus. Truly, the Wolverine is the most charismatic of animals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 11:42:44 am

Quote from: Draignean on May 30, 2017, 11:36:42 am

Basically, I have two people who are pretty much guaranteed to continue, one more who will if the time schedule works for him (he moved to Japan), and a couple others who may, or may not, keep playing. I'd ideally love to get a group of 5 players, because five is a good number, and thus I can cherry pick my players pretty well. *Maniacal Laugh*

I'm really digging the Roll20 game I'm in that Fniff is DMing, but that's both a function of a good DM and a system that lets you forget you're using a system most of the time. PBP I've done quite a bit of, but it doesn't lend quite the same rapid-fire that you get in live chat games.

Definitely hit me up when it's ready to go, I'm fairly reliable and I've got stuff I'm very eager to try in either 3.5 or 5E.

Quote from: Draignean on May 30, 2017, 11:36:42 am

Sadly, this is not the case. There are a half-dozen other anthropomorphic races from savage species with CRAZY GOOD stat bonuses in exchange for LA+0. Most of them have a few penalties as well, but table A-58 of that book is a Munchkin's dream (You want am LA+0, +10 starting Dex bonus? We've got it!). Hell, even Apeman, which you'd think would be mostly baseline human, gets LA+0, +2 Str, +6 Dex, and +4 Wis.

Might just be a strictly GMing resource that got into the wrong hands, like the Hulking Hurler.

Quote from: Draignean on May 30, 2017, 11:36:42 am

Don't even get me started on wolverines having a CHA bonus. Truly, the Wolverine is the most charismatic of animals.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/hugh-jackman.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on May 30, 2017, 01:17:02 pm

Hopefuly will finish what I planned for my Eclipse Phase campaign's first session this week, because one of the players had an emergency pop up right at the end. I said it here before, but to recap: they had to infiltrate a small ship and destroy the TITAN device inside. They managed to get inside the ship, slaughtering most of the mercs guarding it without alerting the station authorities, and were about to go into the cargo hold when we had to end the session.

Originally, I was going to have red herrings mixed in with the real thing, but after re-reading rules for basilisk hacks, I got a better idea. Once they open the container it is in, the device will activate (not that I will tell them right away) and we'll skip straight to their backups. The campaign's plot will then be trying to stop their now-brainwashed originals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: flabort on May 30, 2017, 05:45:41 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 11:42:44 am

Quote from: Draignean on May 30, 2017, 11:36:42 am

Don't even get me started on wolverines having a CHA bonus. Truly, the Wolverine is the most charismatic of animals.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/hugh-jackman.jpg)

I'm convinced.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on May 30, 2017, 09:27:17 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 30, 2017, 10:49:14 am

On one hand 5E is easier to run and probably a better system overall once you learn to play fast and loose with it (easier to do theater of the mind with it as well).

On the other hand oh my god I can't bear the itch to play in a good 3.5 game, I've got so many concepts that aren't possible in Pathfinder!

Or take something weirder, like Dungeon World or something. You can theoretically do anything in a Powered By The Apocalypse game and they're pretty good for off-the-cuff bullshit.

Oh, and while you can occasionally get good randos, you definitely want people you know as a significant part of your group. Reliable folk are hard to find sometimes, but when you have them, try to use them when possible.

Yeah, 5e is probably the modern (by which I mean post-WotC era) edition for just winging it, what with the more simplified ruleset and balanced classes, though I do sometimes feel a desire for better character customization. Not even more classes or archetypes, really; I just wish there was more room to define characters in minor ways, like more smaller feat-type things.

Also, I do sometimes wish I was running Dungeon World, since that game has the ability for DMs to create monsters basically on the fly, whereas making a new monster for 5e tends to be a lengthy process involving repeated revisions and the consultation of charts. Making encounters is almost equally tedious, though I do at least have a good online tool for that (http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder), though even that requires some trial-and-error.

Personally, I kind of wish I could play or run some sort of retroclone game, preferably one with ascending AC (or at least something that doesn't require me to learn how THAC0 works). Mostly for the sake of greater simplicity, but also because of something I noticed while playing Baldur's Gate last year, which is that characters in old-school D&D tend to have at least a basic form of most of their abilities to start with, and then they get better over time, whereas, in later editions, you often have to wait a number of levels for something to come "online". I mean, sure, I guess it's nice to have new things to look forward to, but often it feels like you're just waiting to be able to play the character you wanted to play, when people probably would be willing to have a class feature at a much lower power rather than it being arbitrarily level-locked.

And maybe old-school D&D doesn't really address this all that well (it does have a lot of arbitrary level restrictions of it's own), I feel like it at least does it better than later editions, for the fact that players were able to bear more extreme leveling restrictions (because for the most part levels just got you more HP or a better chance to hit). I don't know, I'm just rambling at this point, but I've had this idea for a while, and I just wanted to get it out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on June 04, 2017, 09:42:50 pm

Well, today's Eclipse Phase session was... something.

The players were basilisk hacked, becoming exsurgents. Woke up on mars from their backups (one bouncer, one hypergibbon, one ruster), were told something went wrong and that they had to undo their fuck-up. They managed to deduce exactly where their exsurgent selves were going, in this case Uranus, sold their new body and transport for mad cash, and egocasted all the way to Oberon. There, they stole two synthmorphs (one with a ghostrider), and made friends with the collective responsible for defense of the hab (and one of the players ended up starting a sort of romance with a dolphin). They spent a bit too long doing so, however, and their exsurgent alter-egos managed to land. Two of them went through the Pandora Gate, and the session ended mid-fight due to time issues against the tankiest of the group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 04, 2017, 09:44:32 pm

My game fell apart.

Yet I am learning from my mistakes and I am going to wait until I get a finished book (or advanced BETA) before I attempt it again.

Quote from: Teneb on June 04, 2017, 09:42:50 pm

Well, today's Eclipse Phase session was... something.

The players were basilisk hacked, becoming exsurgents. Woke up on mars from their backups (one bouncer, one hypergibbon, one ruster), were told something went wrong and that they had to undo their fuck-up. They managed to deduce exactly where their exsurgent selves were going, in this case Uranus, sold their new body and transport for mad cash, and egocasted all the way to Oberon. There, they stole two synthmorphs (one with a ghostrider), and made friends with the collective responsible for defense of the hab (and one of the players ended up starting a sort of romance with a dolphin). They spent a bit too long doing so, however, and their exsurgent alter-egos managed to land. Two of them went through the Pandora Gate, and the session ended mid-fight due to time issues against the tankiest of the group.

Excellent session overall.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 05, 2017, 01:03:59 am

Party got their asses kicked by a band of wood elves and then had to phone in one character's vampire husband to save them.

The party vampire proceeded to feed off of the corpses who were still alive as their throats were torn out, and created a horror scene for one of the other party members who's convinced they were in a fever dream after waking up after stabilizing and getting back up from 0hp.

Party vampire came out and said she's a vampire and they proceeded to go into the Temple of the Leviathan to gather the last item needed that will make them probably not die fighting a man who is half machine.

They meet midget gnomes (think Underpants Gnomes) by shrinking to their size and meeting a preist's spirit who came back to speak to them. They said to fix the shield they're after, they have to absolve a terrible elf pirate of his sins (he stole a gem and the fury of the gods and his sons manifested into the leviathan). Sadly, the elf isn't there, so they have to absolve him themselves.

And we left off there as the party tried to attack the gnome preist by the end of it because one of my players takes having -2 to his Int too seriously

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 05, 2017, 07:15:48 am

Quote from: Jimmy on May 15, 2017, 06:04:00 am

So whilst one of the players is away, another of my players is going to run a Stars Without Numbers game, which is essentially a pulp fiction space RPG. I've decided to go with a backworld character, and the following is my concept:

Name: Ilmenster the Mage, Sage of Shadows, The Great Overspacorceror, Doombringer of Mysteries, Old Stinkbeard, Put That Pipe Out That Tank's Filled With Pure Oxygen
Race: Human
Age: Venerable
Class: Psychic Space Wizard

I survived Stars Without Number!

The game opens on a space station with the local big-wig making noise about an asteroid mining outpost that's gone quiet a few days ago. We get paid half up front to go take a shuttle and check it out.

I, the crotchety old space wizard, demand payment in gold pieces instead of these new-fangled credit things.

We get to the space station and get knocked unconscious when we find a mysterious psychic egg macguffin, awaking later with patchy memories.

I immediately declare this to be a dragon's egg, spawn of Tiamat herself. I assign my lack of memories as being due to wizard pipe-weed, then blaze up a fresh bowl.

We advance deeper into the outpost, getting attacked by robot-spiders named gremlins which somehow seem to decide I'm the tastiest looking meat-sack on the abandoned station. The GM is looking eager to encourage the space-wizard's early retirement, it seems. Fortunately my Mage Armor protects me from serious injury until my allies blast them to bits.

Not taking any more of this guff, I decide to screw caution because I'm a wizard, damnit. The enemies should be afraid of me, not the other way around. We find the comms room, our tech expert tries to fix the uplink for the outpost and ignore the bloodstains on the floor, but the power cuts out. Our techie rolled well on the computers check and scored a full map of the outpost before the system crashed, and I demand she show me the site of the wellspring of arcane energies on her magical mapping scroll.

So throwing caution to the wind, I charge into the reactor room, disturbing another nest of robot spiders. I win initiative and cast a grenade fireball.

The GM takes to shuffling his notes and trying to figure out how to salvage his story-line whilst I shout to my allies that the danger has been eradicated. Eventually the GM decides that the reactor's salvageable but will take several hours of work to fix, which is fine since I strike out to explore the rest of the station, leaving the more technically minded to fiddle with the scorched remains of the reactor. I find the medical bay, and spend the next few hours inventing recreational ways of experiencing the contents of their drug cabinet.

Time passes. Rolls are made. Eventually the GM declares that the reactor is fixed and everyone returns to the comms room, except me. I've seen everything there is to see on this outpost and I'm ready to go, so I decide to hang out around the airlock. They hail the space station and transmit valuable information in the form of crew logs and reports, but of course there's a jamming signal that cuts off their transmission. Space pirates are inbound!

Everyone starts reinforcing the comms room in preparation for attack, but I'm still in the airlock. They're torn between letting me know about the pirates or not, but eventually decide to try calling me back. I calmly refill my pipe and ignore them with a crafty gleam in my eye. The pirates dock, the airlock opens, I roll for initiative and nail it. First pirate gets a fireball to the face before he's taken a single step, and I redecorate the inside of the airlock in chunky red pirate salsa.

The other two are smarter and decide to take cover around the corner inside their ship. They fire at me from their cover and miss, then it's back to my turn again. I pull the pin on another fireball and put a little English on it, curving it neatly around the corner as it makes a very satisfying splash of body parts in response. Then I just stand there in the airlock, leaning on my wizard's staff, calmly smiling whilst I wait for my allies to come and mop up the mess in our brand new ex-pirate spaceship.

We discover one of the pirates is none other than a former employee of the mining outpost, though identification is tricky when the body's mostly medium rare hamburger meat. Still, it's enough to get us going to their last known mining site, a large asteroid near the outpost. We dock at the asteroid mining site after some skill checks by our pilot, board the habitat, and find the survivors of the dig crew holed up inside a storage area.

They tell us they found a strange pre-tech artefact inside the asteroid, from which came the macguffin. I tell them it's nonsense as it's obviously a dragon egg, holding it out to them. The egg starts to suddenly grow hot to the touch, and the GM says it's so hot I drop it. Bugger that, I say. I declare that I want to make a Mental check to force myself to channel whatever power this egg is emitting into myself. The GM says that's fine, but with an evil grin he warns me that failure will probably explode my head. The DC is 12 on a d20 roll, and I've got a +2 increase in the DC because the GM says this is an extremely dangerous power I'm attempting to channel. Death or glory, I pick up my dice and roll it.

Natural. 20.

The table explodes and the GM throws his hands up and admits defeat. We steamroll the final wave of robot spiders, my space wizard glowing with burning power as he unleashes hellfire into the swarm. We eventually discover the ancient pre-tech facility, which is described as an opaque orb that gradually turns transparent as we approach with the egg. Inside we see an organic looking altar with a curved cup at waist height exactly the right size for holding the egg.

I take one look at it and say "I'mma rub my nuts on it."

After thoroughly desecrating the ancient structure and being threatened by my allies at knife-point to my family jewels, eventually I surrender the altar to it's intended use. We get a light-show of some star maps showing interesting places for further adventures, a psychic contact with otherworldly beings who don't take kindly to suggestions they're dragons and therefore ought to be slain and turned into armor, and then we're back on our merry way to return to the space station with the rescued miners.

Overall, I had a lot of fun, and it was a good break to get to play a character again. Despite being reckless to the extreme, the dice smiled upon me this time, and if we ever run another Stars Without Numbers, I'll be sure to bring back Ilmenster the Mad for an encore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 05, 2017, 09:19:50 am

I nee guinnea pigs for trying out D&D basic in a PBP endless dungeon so I can get the hang of it.

PM me if you're interested. I have four players right now and I need four more as I want to see how a group of 8 fares (I'm expecting that many for the one off session I'll be having IRL)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 05, 2017, 04:29:25 pm

This thread doesn't include non-DnD, total freeform play-by-post, does it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 05, 2017, 06:24:59 pm

Not really?  That's pretty far into the gray area I think, so it might not be well suited to this thread.  I'm willing to let you try, but if it gets too off-topic I'll have to ask you to take it elsewhere.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 05, 2017, 06:30:39 pm

Yeah, on second thought it doesn't really fit. Thanks anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 05, 2017, 06:35:52 pm

Okay, good luck and have fun with your game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 05, 2017, 06:40:06 pm

Thanks! c:

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cattani on June 05, 2017, 08:33:41 pm

Hey guys. I'm a very new DM and i'm scheduled to take over our group soon. Our game is Pathfinder.
I have DM'ed a few encounters before and my opponents always feel very underpowered. I mean VERY. I need advice on making actual deadly encounters. And I dont just want to shove harder enemies at them because the problem is not game balance, it's because I feel I'm not really using my orcs/goblinoids/drow/what-have-you up to their best.
Anyone have advice or a link or something that can be shared?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 05, 2017, 08:37:21 pm

I've always heard the key to making challenging encounters is to have multiple enemies, because of turn economy and... things. So try that. Just add more enemies. Always works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 05, 2017, 08:43:33 pm

You need to tailor your monsters to the abilities and perks of your players.

Players will always try to overbuff themselves, etc.  This means that monsters that should own the floor with their spleens can get creamed effortlessly, if the players are savvy.

You have to be more clever than your players.  The game typically tries to provide handicaps in addition to boons when somebody takes a feat, or uses an object or spell to buff a character. Exploitation of those handicaps is how you cut through the tank's defenses, and wreck the floor with him.

Outfitting the drow with useful things, like magic tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation/) (which cannot be looted, because well-- they are part of the drow's skin!) gives the drow in question the equivalent of having wondrous items equipped, without actually having wondrous items to loot.  This makes it possible to buff the creatures in ways that make it hard to combat them, especially if the drow in question are formed into a cohesive and useful party themselves. Say for instance, one of their number is able to draw all magical attacks, and has a perk to strongly resist, or completely negate those magic attacks. This makes the glass cannon wizard/sorc less effective at taking out the fighters in the drow party, and causing the player party's tank to get overwhelmed.  Can couple with other fun things like adding some kind of anti-magic to prevent healing effects, or some local hazard that reduces saving throw efficacy. Drow are sentient humanoids, and it makes perfect sense that they could make use of such things. Given their culture, it makes sense that they *WOULD* use such things.

Properly combining the features of the dungeon room itself, with the creature's abilities, can make even an encounter with pitiful monsters into one that causes nightmares for players.

Look at how your group's characters do things.  Create situations where those tactics fail.  Force the players to try something else besides their familiar formulae.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 05, 2017, 10:49:52 pm

Quote from: Cattani on June 05, 2017, 08:33:41 pm

Hey guys. I'm a very new DM and i'm scheduled to take over our group soon. Our game is Pathfinder.
I have DM'ed a few encounters before and my opponents always feel very underpowered. I mean VERY. I need advice on making actual deadly encounters. And I dont just want to shove harder enemies at them because the problem is not game balance, it's because I feel I'm not really using my orcs/goblinoids/drow/what-have-you up to their best.
Anyone have advice or a link or something that can be shared?

What are your players' classes and levels?

What is the campaign theme currently?

How do combats usually get resolved?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 06, 2017, 03:45:27 am

Quote from: Cattani on June 05, 2017, 08:33:41 pm

Hey guys. I'm a very new DM and i'm scheduled to take over our group soon. Our game is Pathfinder.
I have DM'ed a few encounters before and my opponents always feel very underpowered. I mean VERY. I need advice on making actual deadly encounters. And I dont just want to shove harder enemies at them because the problem is not game balance, it's because I feel I'm not really using my orcs/goblinoids/drow/what-have-you up to their best.
Anyone have advice or a link or something that can be shared?

Slight advantages tend to make or break a combat encounter. If the party are taken by surprise, they can't easily do the cavalcade of buffs. If there's difficult terrain and obstacles, movement becomes more complex. Combine these with good positioning, traps, reasonable anti-wizard measures (such as a net) and of course spellcasters (using a spell like pyrotechnics, for instance) and you have encounters that make you work to beat them. Take advantage of the fact that adventurers usually fight enemies on their home ground and prepare accordingly (could be something as simple as the drow outpost being completely unlit and them using their superior darkvision to outrange the adventurers as well as put traps in the darkest and least visible locations). Take advantage of verticality as well and don't hesitate to put enemies well above the players on a perch or a roof and let loose hellish retribution.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 06, 2017, 04:51:03 am

Indeed. You'd be surprised how effective a handful of mooks with tanglefoot bags makes an encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 06, 2017, 06:30:51 am

As a side note, I think I wanta put in that easy encounters aren't universally a bad thing either. It is if your players are feeling unsatisfied with the battles, but so long as they are easy because your players are playing relatively not stupidly (controllers are controlling, dps are dpsing, buffers are buffing, tactics and stratagy aren't stupid. Etc.) I don't think encounters need to be super life and death situations every time. Mostly because, well, D&D is a game based on randomness of dice rolls. And a close and hard encounter (if it's truly close and hard and not just a smoke screen) implies a percentage chance of failure and death. That's cool for some climatic battles, but if every fight has a 25% chance of dying either your game is going to last around 4 fights before it's over, or you'll have to pull out bullshit to keep them alive. Neither option is really very satisfying in my opinion (well, the 4 fights one CAN be satisfying, but it's not how you want to run every game.) Ultimately it sorta depends on what story you and your group want to tell. But if it's a heroic one, an easy ride (except sometimes in climaxes) isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on June 06, 2017, 06:36:57 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 06, 2017, 03:45:27 am

Take advantage of verticality as well and don't hesitate to put enemies well above the players on a perch or a roof and let loose hellish retribution.

This is super true. My party once had a player kill from two low-level skeleton archers on rooftops. Piercing resistance meant the archer couldn't trivially kill them, poor climb check meant the paladin couldn't hop up and flatten them. We got them eventually, but it was a challenge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Cattani on June 06, 2017, 06:57:52 am

Thanks for the help guys!
Everyone in the group is new to the game. We wanted to play but we knew no DM or anything so I just took it upon me to do it.
It's a low level campaign, fighting goblins and stuff, doing some side quests to understand their power level before actually putting up a big story arc.
I think i can see where I'm going wrong... My fights are always on bright areas, the terrain is never dangerous and my guys never have cool stuff on them like tanglefoots or potions or anything.
It really makes sense. The players are still enjoying their stuff but these kind of fights are not taking us far. Better ramp up the difficulty before it gets boring.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 06, 2017, 05:03:33 pm

Quote from: Cattani on June 06, 2017, 06:57:52 am

Thanks for the help guys!
Everyone in the group is new to the game. We wanted to play but we knew no DM or anything so I just took it upon me to do it.
It's a low level campaign, fighting goblins and stuff, doing some side quests to understand their power level before actually putting up a big story arc.
I think i can see where I'm going wrong... My fights are always on bright areas, the terrain is never dangerous and my guys never have cool stuff on them like tanglefoots or potions or anything.
It really makes sense. The players are still enjoying their stuff but these kind of fights are not taking us far. Better ramp up the difficulty before it gets boring.

Throwing in a radically different kind of enemy is always a good way to spice things up. A single quell, for instance, while capable of doing only very limited damage, is capable of throwing a fairly massive wrench into the works of a party that relies on its healers.

Changeling bandits led by a low-level sorcerer capable of casting animate rope can make a wicked ambush by adopting the faces and aspects of prisoners, wearing animated ropes, and then jumping whichever individual is foolish enough to try and free them.

A promising looking ruin, inhabited by even a single gargoyle, can also very easily challenge the unprepared.

---

For my own part, I'm having trouble with my setting. On the one hand, I like the general concept of a world where the Heroes of Prophecy fucked up their jobs royally more than two centuries ago, and thus left most of the continent in the hands of an Alienist* Dracolich and his pet Necrocracy.

On the other hand, it runs into one of the larger problems I have in campaigns: giving people impossible problems. See, I like giving people horrible snarls of brambles that no human could ever escape from, because I want to see what people DO in those sorts of situations. Still, it's a problem, and I've been told that I have a bad habit of making the early encounters so impossibly horrifying that most people try to abandon their respective quests and go farm goats on a secluded mountain.

Things are usually okay once they get rolling, but... Well, I'm leery of creating a setting that is, at it's core too dark and dreary.

Bah. Still working on it. Intros are hard, and for some reason this one is bothering me more than most. Hell, maybe I'll just go back to my Smalls campaign idea...


*Every time I go back and read the Lords of Madness extension, I am struck by how terrible this prestige class is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 06, 2017, 05:27:23 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 05, 2017, 08:43:33 pm

Outfitting the drow with useful things, like magic tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation/) (which cannot be looted, because well-- they are part of the drow's skin!) gives the drow in question the equivalent of having wondrous items equipped, without actually having wondrous items to loot.

Unlootable loot. Bane of some players' existence. Admittedly, sometimes called for depending on your party make-up. I'm more often bothered by golems who actually have a weapon or some other item integrated into their bodies, and end up with the gear becoming unrecoverable upon their destruction. Especially if it's a construct a player made.

If they can craft their own items, then loot from enemies becomes less important, and you may actually need to lower the wealth you come across to correct the effects of players getting anything they want for half-price or less.

Quote from: Draignean on June 06, 2017, 05:03:33 pm

For my own part, I'm having trouble with my setting. On the one hand, I like the general concept of a world where the Heroes of Prophecy fucked up their jobs royally more than two centuries ago, and thus left most of the continent in the hands of an Alienist* Dracolich and his pet Necrocracy.

*Every time I go back and read the Lords of Madness extension, I am struck by how terrible this prestige class is.

Terrible as in overpowered, or terrible as in shit?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 06, 2017, 06:06:09 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 06, 2017, 05:27:23 pm

Terrible as in overpowered, or terrible as in shit?

Terrible as in shit.

Basically, all it gets you is the ability to have your summons all carry the Pseudonatural trait, which grants them the whopping bonus of being able to transform into a ball of tentacles and use true strike once. Now, the good part of that is it basically lets you use whatever you can summon as a near-always hitting physical damage spell, but...

Among their other class abilities are such beauties as....
Permanently gain a +1 to all saves, at the cost of permanent -2 Wis!
Gain metamagic bonus feats at prestige levels 3 and 7!
Gain 3 HP (Yes, you hear me, a monumental 3 hp) in exchange for a permanent -4 to bluff, diplomacy, and handle animal!
At 6th prestige level you finally gain a useful ability, and that's... one more summon slot your highest level! Woo!
At 8th prestige level you get another incredible +3 hp bonus, and a -6 to bluff, diplomacy, and handle animal that is cumulative with your original penalty!
But wait, there's more!
At 9th prestige level you get a copy of the Druid's timeless body, remember kids, druids only get this at level 15, so if you're perfectly optimal you can get it one whole level sooner!

The final rung of the prestige class is decent, and is basically a weak version of the level 20 monk upgrade. You forever become an aberration, with all of the resistances and DR that entails.


Also, Alienist is Complete Arcane, not Lords of Madness. I always do that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: heydude6 on June 06, 2017, 06:15:58 pm

Sounds like something that should be houseruled. It's pretty cool thematically but the numbers aren't right.

I'd say make it a +2 to all saves at the cost of wisdom, gain 3 constitution rather than 3 hp. And make the bluff,diplomacy, handle animal malus -3 and -6, but not stacking. I think that will prevent it from being at least underpowered.

Of course, I don't know 3.5 edition that we'll so it's possible I may have just broke the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 06, 2017, 06:41:20 pm

Eh, you missed the biggest benefit from alienist. Full spellcasting.

T1 tbh. Everything else is gravy. (The bonus metamagics are also actually really good on the grand scale of what one can get from prc classes too :P) Sure, other then that it's a a whole lota negatives for little to no upside, but it's for people playing a creepy mutant alien, and that's exactly what it makes you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 06, 2017, 06:52:50 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on June 06, 2017, 06:41:20 pm

Eh, you missed the biggest benefit from alienist. Full spellcasting.

T1 tbh. Everything else is gravy.

That's the thing, it's basically an awkward feat with a couple of hijinx.  It's a T1 if taken by a wizard, because a wizard is a T1. It's a T2 if taken by a sorcerer, because a sorcerer is a T2. It's a nothing prestige class that doesn't bring anything to the table.


It's a prestige class that can be taken by T1 classes. It does not produce any significant handicaps, therefore it remains T1. However, it is utterly uninteresting.

It doesn't make a character substantially worse (Unlike Some) but it sure as hell doesn't do anything new or different- which rather defeats the purpose of the prestige class system IMHO.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 01:50:05 am

Quote from: Draignean on June 06, 2017, 05:03:33 pm

For my own part, I'm having trouble with my setting. On the one hand, I like the general concept of a world where the Heroes of Prophecy fucked up their jobs royally more than two centuries ago, and thus left most of the continent in the hands of an Alienist* Dracolich and his pet Necrocracy.

On the other hand, it runs into one of the larger problems I have in campaigns: giving people impossible problems. See, I like giving people horrible snarls of brambles that no human could ever escape from, because I want to see what people DO in those sorts of situations. Still, it's a problem, and I've been told that I have a bad habit of making the early encounters so impossibly horrifying that most people try to abandon their respective quests and go farm goats on a secluded mountain.

Things are usually okay once they get rolling, but... Well, I'm leery of creating a setting that is, at it's core too dark and dreary.

Bah. Still working on it. Intros are hard, and for some reason this one is bothering me more than most. Hell, maybe I'll just go back to my Smalls campaign idea...

Well, the Big Setting Problems aren't necessarily the players' problems. Even if a dracolich and their cadre of vampires rule over the world, it's a safe assumption that life somehow would go on, no? They only become player problems once the players' progression starts to inescapably conflict with the ruling class agenda (probably something about farming blood and such), not to mention that said undead overlords have ruled for about 10 generations now and that means that only really long-lived races could possibly remember what life was like beforehand, which may or may not radicalize them against the existing regime (elven partisans! dwarven survivalists! gnomish mad bombers! the aboleth conspiracy!). Pull a Deus Ex and have the players initially on the side of the Necrocracy, with the possible option of going against them later.

EDIT: Actually, this kind of reminds me of an idea I had about a game where the players are tax collectors in service to an imperial regime sent out to the borderlands to try and extort money from the local nobility and functionaries. It's fun to start a game as something other than adventurers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 07, 2017, 04:47:23 am

I'm looking forward to doing weird shit to my players soon. I've thrown orc children allips at them before, which got into some seriously disturbing nightmare fuel images, but they're about to run into a stronghold of kytons on the Shadow Plane if they're going to continue pursuing this current adventure path.

In Pathfinder, kytons aren't just a chain devil like in 3.5e. They're actually an entire subrace of lawful evil outsiders native to the plane of shadow who're into extreme body modding. My players are about to get dipped face-first into a kyton Flesh Forge, where mortal slaves with magical talent are carved into weapons of mass destruction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 07, 2017, 04:59:00 am

Quote

At 9th prestige level you get a copy of the Druid's timeless body, remember kids, druids only get this at level 15, so if you're perfectly optimal you can get it one whole level sooner!

Given Timeless Body is a fluff ability that is more for "Oooohs" and "aaaahs" and has no tangible effect on games anymore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 07, 2017, 05:12:45 am

Quote from: Jimmy on June 07, 2017, 04:47:23 am

I'm looking forward to doing weird shit to my players soon. I've thrown orc children allips at them before, which got into some seriously disturbing nightmare fuel images, but they're about to run into a stronghold of kytons on the Shadow Plane if they're going to continue pursuing this current adventure path.

In Pathfinder, kytons aren't just a chain devil like in 3.5e. They're actually an entire subrace of lawful evil outsiders native to the plane of shadow who're into extreme body modding. My players are about to get dipped face-first into a kyton Flesh Forge, where mortal slaves with magical talent are carved into weapons of mass destruction.

Want some inspiration? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?116836-The-SilverClawShift-Campaign-Archives)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 07, 2017, 12:13:58 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 01:50:05 am

...

Harry. I'm beginning to suspect that you're reading my setting notes over my shoulder via astral projection.  For  instance...

Quote from: Setting Notes

A few of the longer lived (or simply immortal) species might still burn with resentment, but their numbers are few, and culled quickly when they show signs of organized resistance. Most people are happy enough to eke out a living- evading the Blood Tax as best they can, and protecting any who they love in the same manner. The Necrocrats, by and large, are not wantonly cruel masters, and they are perfectly happy to allow the more useful members of the mortal species to serve them well in exchange for continued life. Ennui is a perpetual problem for the bloodlords, forbidden as they are from making open war on one another, and an interesting mortal is a wonderful way to wile away the years. There are always more mortal cattle to feed upon, and there are always those willing to exchange their own blood for a pampered life of luxury as a pet.

The Necropoli are really nice places to live if you're a functional part of the New Order. The Necrocrats WANT mortals to live and reproduce, because they depend on them for sustenance. Criminal punishment is defined in terms of how much blood you lose, and petty crime is near nil. Why risk being nearly exsanguinated for a bauble when there are institutions set up to allow you to voluntarily give up your blood for greater reward and greater safety?

The stratification of the Necropolis is strict, and is based off of the Blood Tax. The Blood Tax is essentially an amount of constitution points living blood that the mortal denizens must pay to the Necrocracy. Now, since a once yearly tax collected in literal blood would kill a good number, the Necrocracy basically hijacked the old currency, reminted it to make it distinctive, and backed it with blood.

Blood is life. Money is blood. Thus, Money is life. 

 At the bottom you have the lawless, individuals who do not recognize the fact that they are property and refuse to submit to the taxation. These are criminals beyond normal criminals. Any citizen who catches a Lawless can bring them to a Tax House, where they will be bled and the equivalent blood price paid back to the captor.

A fair step above that you have the general population of cattle. Cattle is the term for people who do not actually produce anything, but instead exist by selling their blood. Often unskilled, Cattle are kept in line by force and by a substantial selection of entertainments and pleasures. Fear, after all, spoils the taste of the meat, and a substantial caste of vampires is dedicated to nothing but perfecting various experiences in order to concoct new flavors of blood. The average QoL for one of the Cattle is likely substantially higher than it was 200 years ago. After all, when mortals were free, there was little intrinsic value to being alive. Now life is a commodity you can sell by degrees.

Only slightly above the Cattle are the Tenders. Tenders are mortals who provide services to the cattle, in exchange for the money the cattle received for their blood. Tenders are thief-catchers, bar owners, black smiths, prostitutes, chefs, carpenters, rag and bone men- any individual who earns (primarily) earns money by selling a service to cattle (or other Tenders) instead of directly selling their own blood.

Substantially above the Tenders are the Talents. Talents are Tenders who are of sufficient skill that, instead of selling their services to Cattle, sell them directly to members of the Necrocracy. Talents, again, can be anything. A Duskblade acting as a daylight guardian, a favored Harem girl/boy, a provisioner who somehow knows just the right way to obtain valuable objects, a storyteller that still manages to be entertaining to a centuries old audience, a smith capable of working dragonscale and adamantine, etc. Such individuals are often payed well with coin, largely to prevent other members of the Necrocracy from stealing their services at a better rate.

The Necrocracy itself isn't one monumental block of vampires and only vampires. Many creatures that would have been hunted and killed two centuries ago find that they fit in quite comfortably to the lower ranks of the necrocrat hierarchy- even if they aren't quite dead yet. While the cost to eat a living mortal is quite high (a mortal produces quite a lot of blood over its lifetime) but fresh and still fleshy bodies are always in reasonably steady supply.

Considering that I had intended to start the party at level ~6, they'd be firmly in the realm of either 'important renegade' or 'valued Talent'. Particularly since I'd like to encourage people to make... interesting character designs.

Err... That was quite a lot longer than I intended.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 12:22:43 pm

Describing the lower caste as cattle who survive by selling their blood brings up a question from me: Does the original base of the economy (IE: most people farming I guess in a generic medieval setting) still exist and this blood tax lays on top, or has that been supplanted somehow, leaving this massive glut of unskilled labor that has no where to turn other then selling their blood?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 12:26:08 pm

In this hypothetical setting, would it be illegal to be a mortal wizard specializing in studying living flesh / performing horrible magical research on cultured tissues?

I ask that, because the obvious way to get rich quick is to produce an abomination in a vat that produces copious amounts of blood.  Say, cultured from the wizard's own flesh, just for this purpose.

(I dont know if your setting is based in a game system featuring 'vivomancy' or not, but some systems do in fact have it as a school of magic)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 12:32:51 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 12:22:43 pm

Describing the lower caste as cattle who survive by selling their blood brings up a question from me: Does the original base of the economy (IE: most people farming I guess in a generic medieval setting) still exist and this blood tax lays on top, or has that been supplanted somehow, leaving this massive glut of unskilled labor that has no where to turn other then selling their blood?

I imagine a necropolis is like a medieval city - while it benefits very directly from the excruciating system of farming required to feed all of its living citizenry, no farming goes on within the city itself. And since serfdom was pretty horrible historically even without being run by undead monsters, you can only imagine what it'd be like in service to a necropolis.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 12:38:52 pm

Which is why I could definitely see a very valuable market for vivomancers. (Specifically, people who create (and maintain) a soulless husk-copy of you in a tank, fed on garbage and refuse, for the exclusively sole purpose of providing blood for the tax.)

When you can literally create something that "shits gold", it throws a big monkey wrench in the economy though-- so I also see where it would be forbidden to anyone but the elite.

It need not even be a complete copy of you to suffice either-- whole blood is produced from bone marrow. A big tank filled with twisted, gnarly-unnatural bone tissue filled with bone marrow cranking out biologically identical blood to your own would suffice.

It might be part of the glue that binds old-economy (tank abberations need foodstuffs to produce blood) with new economy (ever increasing populations of lich lords and rewarded underlings need ever increasing supplies of blood to survive). 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on June 07, 2017, 12:46:56 pm

Undead thrall agricultural workers/serfs are forcing human peasants into the cities and into the blood market? This would mirror the Agricultural and industrial revolutions that took place in England.

Lower-quality bloods are used for an administrative half-caste: (non-vampire undead, vampire-human offsprings, whatever)

Vivomancy would be something like the Great Migration, Green Revolution and the Agricultural Revolution rolled into one: likely a source of conflict if it existed.


Gosh. When I have some free time, I definitely want to do some worldbuilding of my own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 01:03:44 pm

That's a good point, the fields would most logically be worked by an undead workforce, which means several things - there is likely an industry devoted to the maintenance of said undead, there is a concurrent industry in the procurement of more bodies to make undead out of (definitely out of fatally exsanguinated criminals, unregistered travelers, and likely out of cattle purchased in the city with some kind of payment arrangement to their family, whether before or after their deaths).

So if you're considering natural zombie and skeleton attrition due to being subjected to backbreaking labor as well as the elements, there'd be a constant and rising demand for the delivery of bodies to the farming operations, which would likely outpace the increase in the necropolis population, and also consequently a high demand for innovation in farming techniques to decrease said attrition rates. After all, if a famine were to occur, that would mean people don't regenerate Constitution damage as effectively which could send the necropolitan blood economy into an anemic fit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 01:06:01 pm

Here's an ironic twist, if you want to use vivomancers as color--- You must be truly alive to use it as a requirement for that magic school. Undead cant evoke. :P  This would cement the living in a permanent role in the necropolis culture, as they would be indispensable for sustaining the society.

Evolution (for story color) of the school would be something like this:

Necropowers take over, high demand for blood, undead servitors displace most farm labor, mortals become chattels for producing blood.
Mortal chattels are still magically inclined, have unique properties as spell casters-- limited demand for them in niche roles sustains small numbers of magic schools devoted to training them.
Many mortals seek magical training to improve their condition, even though demand for magical mortals is low. Possible value of magically trained mortals for superior quality blood for special purposes by necropower society.
Combined with high demand for blood, magical mortals are driven to develop new sorceries. (vivomancy)
Initial research involves such unsavory practices as experimenting on pregnant women, newborn babies, small children-- et al. Gets a nasty reputation.
More refined practice gives rise to first tank abberations, produce poor quality blood, but in large quantities. Eases administration burdens of necropower hierarchy.
Necropower hierarchy becomes dependent upon supply of inexpensive (but low quality) blood produced from this industry.
Demand for mortal sorcerers increases, as more are required to make and maintain the tanks.
Mortals assume newly created indespensible role as elite vivomancer caste.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 01:17:07 pm

Oh! Animate Dead requires black onyx as an obligatory material component, 25 gps worth per HD of the undead created - this makes 1 HD skeletons about half as expensive as 2 HD (the lowest they can go) zombies. So that's a constant source of onyx required to sustain a fully undead peasant force, and quite a lot of it at that.

Oh, and wierd: this is D&D, so vivomancy isn't actually a thing for the most part (there is a fleshwarper prestige class, but that's all about grafting things to yourself and others for fun and profit). That is, unless you adhere to the Nethack interpretation of Stone to Flesh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 07, 2017, 01:21:38 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 12:32:51 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 12:22:43 pm

Describing the lower caste as cattle who survive by selling their blood brings up a question from me: Does the original base of the economy (IE: most people farming I guess in a generic medieval setting) still exist and this blood tax lays on top, or has that been supplanted somehow, leaving this massive glut of unskilled labor that has no where to turn other then selling their blood?

I imagine a necropolis is like a medieval city - while it benefits very directly from the excruciating system of farming required to feed all of its living citizenry, no farming goes on within the city itself. And since serfdom was pretty horrible historically even without being run by undead monsters, you can only imagine what it'd be like in service to a necropolis.

Quite, farming is needed to bring in food to feed the cattle (and everyone who doesn't eat cattle). Thus you can think of farmers as a very extended set of tenders. Skeletons are excellent picks for a great deal of dumb labor, given their speed, durability, and simplicity, but they're still useless without direction. Since most Vampires would rather set their heads on fire than learn how to farm, that puts a substantial portion of your work force in the hands of more-mortal instruments. Talent clerics/wizard/sorcerers capable of raising and controlling undead are certainly employed, but even they usually have to be advised on the finer points of agriculture.

So, yes. There is still substantial agriculture, and while some farms are certainly run by necromancy, this is expensive and still requires someone who knows that farming is slightly more difficult that putting plant bits in the ground and waiting for a while. Thus a large number of farms are still run principally by mortals. Other manual labors, such as a mining, fall into similar traps- where the lesser undead act as supplemental labor forces.

Quote from: wierd on June 07, 2017, 12:26:08 pm

In this hypothetical setting, would it be illegal to be a mortal wizard specializing in studying living flesh / performing horrible magical research on cultured tissues?

I ask that, because the obvious way to get rich quick is to produce an abomination in a vat that produces copious amounts of blood.  Say, cultured from the wizard's own flesh, just for this purpose.

Quote from: wierd on June 07, 2017, 12:38:52 pm

Which is why I could definitely see a very valuable market for vivomancers. (Specifically, people who create (and maintain) a soulless husk-copy of you in a tank, fed on garbage and refuse, for the exclusively sole purpose of providing blood for the tax.)

When you can literally create something that "shits gold", it throws a big monkey wrench in the economy though-- so I also see where it would be forbidden to anyone but the elite.

It need not even be a complete copy of you to suffice either-- whole blood is produced from bone marrow. A big tank filled with twisted, gnarly-unnatural bone tissue filled with bone marrow cranking out biologically identical blood to your own would suffice.

It might be part of the glue that binds old-economy (tank abberations need foodstuffs to produce blood) with new economy (ever increasing populations of lich lords and rewarded underlings need ever increasing supplies of blood to survive). 

Ah, but the catch is that Vampires are not just carnivores. I honestly don't remember if this is my own head-canon or real D&D canon, but Vampires don't digest blood as a chemical energy the way a human digests food. Vampires feed on life, on corrupting and destroying the positive energy of a living being. The blood of a vat-grown magitech clone has little life to it- even if the blood and bone are chemically indistinguishable from that of a normal person, the soul is not.

Essentially, blood from something vat-grown would be a zero product.  It would pass the lips, but it would provide no nourishment nor have any flavor. In a very Renfield sense, Vampires need their victims to have LIVES, not just life in the strict sense.

Each experience in a person's life changes the flavor of their vintage, making a well experienced individual something akin to a complex wine. The caste of vampires dedicated to making culinary delights does take a variety of interesting methods in order to manipulate these experiences- including a method of magical sleep and controlled dreaming. The result is the closest thing a vampire meal might have to the label of 'artificial flavors added'.

Actually vat-growing people and THEN letting them experience things is the kind of powerful magic that's just more trouble than it's worth when one considers how easily most mortals predicate themselves naturally. People are rather good at breeding.

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 01:17:07 pm

Oh! Animate Dead requires black onyx as an obligatory material component, 25 gps worth per HD of the undead created - this makes 1 HD skeletons about half as expensive as 2 HD (the lowest they can go) zombies. So that's a constant source of onyx required to sustain a fully undead peasant force, and quite a lot of it at that.

Oh, and wierd: this is D&D, so vivomancy isn't actually a thing for the most part (there is a fleshwarper prestige class, but that's all about grafting things to yourself and others for fun and profit). That is, unless you adhere to the Nethack interpretation of Stone to Flesh.

The Blood Magi at least as the ability to create a Homunculus, which would be the beginning of flesh magic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 01:26:59 pm

Onyx can be produced synthetically. Unless there is a requirement that it be NATURAL onyx, simple mineral quartz and a few other ingredients can be used to mass manufacture it, under the right conditions.

Re: vivomancy-- it noted that I did not know what game system he was using, but that SOME systems did use it as a magic school.  Since this is a home-brewed scenario, he can homebrew that in too, since the society would naturally favor the emergence of something like it, simply due to economic pressures.

Draignean:

Easy enough-- Collect the old, who have a large reserve of life experiences, or the very young who have a high blood debt, but high vitality-- and instead of simply insanguining them, put them into the vats, and artificially sustain them.  When they can no longer be sustained, their corpses become the raw material for the farming labor industry. If you want added horror, say they are alive and conscious through this entire process.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 01:35:33 pm

Quote from: Draignean on June 07, 2017, 01:21:38 pm

Ah, but the catch is that Vampires are not just carnivores. I honestly don't remember if this is my own head-canon or real D&D canon

The Libris Mortis describes vampires as being diet dependent on blood but inescapably craving life energy. Technically able to live without it but so hopelessly addicted that they'll be reduced to mindless beasts without it. So a little bit of column a, little bit of column b I guess!

That could be an interesting punishment in a vampire society (in a setting where it worked). Forced to survive on vat grown blood as you lost your mind to hunger for the real stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 01:38:55 pm

Useful as a "cutting" agent, for low society undead.  Coupled with a high potency blood source (virgins, children, etc), the resulting 'grog' could sustain an administrative caste, but that filth would never cross the lips of the elite. I like it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 01:42:50 pm

It comes to mind that in a society where experiences in life age a persons tastes (which tracks pretty well to the negative level mechanic in D&D already) the whole of the campaign could be revealed to be all a set up by a consortium of bloodners to make the most aged and complex taste yet. Hum, might need to use that idea myself at some point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 01:47:00 pm

Quote from: Draignean on June 07, 2017, 01:21:38 pm

Quite, farming is needed to bring in food to feed the cattle (and everyone who doesn't eat cattle). Thus you can think of farmers as a very extended set of tenders. Skeletons are excellent picks for a great deal of dumb labor, given their speed, durability, and simplicity, but they're still useless without direction. Since most Vampires would rather set their heads on fire than learn how to farm, that puts a substantial portion of your work force in the hands of more-mortal instruments. Talent clerics/wizard/sorcerers capable of raising and controlling undead are certainly employed, but even they usually have to be advised on the finer points of agriculture.

The great thing about wizards is that powergaming is practically an essential character trait and thus nobody wants to put any ranks in Profession (farmer). So the noble Commoner comes to the (incredibly underpaid, grueling and ultimately thanklessly fatal) rescue!

Quote from: wierd on June 07, 2017, 01:26:59 pm

Onyx can be produced synthetically. Unless there is a requirement that it be NATURAL onyx, simple mineral quartz and a few other ingredients can be used to mass manufacture it, under the right conditions.

It could be, but not with methods that would work well on a massive scale (in medieval fantasy, pretty much exclusively magic which tends to produce small quantities of material for personal use and typically requires relatively high level spells to accomplish). Alchemy is leaning in the right direction, but ultimately lacks the sophistication required to synthesize particular minerals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 01:50:21 pm

It wouldn't matter anyway, since in D&D undead creation is tied directly to the material value of the catalyst. If you start mass producing onyx, your spells will soon need more and more of the stuff. To the point where you're jamming their skulls full of handfuls of the stuff, filling their chest cavities with rocks, and eventually having to grind up massive onyx boulders to bathe the bones in their dust!

Truely woe to the necromancer who thinks he might find a way to improve the efficiency of his craft.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 01:54:51 pm

There could be a few ways to go about it magically...

1) Time accelerated layer deposition. (Simulates natural layer formation, or even accelerates a natural mineral deposit that can potentially produce onyx, so the mineral precipitates quickly, via magical influence.)

2) brute force reconstitution (what you seem to be referring to.)

3) Pyrochemical manipulation (Similar to how you make synthetic ruby, for instance. Use a hydrogen-oxygen torch with finely powdered mineral feedstock, or in this case, a magical flame that contributes no gas impurities, and slowly melt/recrystalize the resulting substance to make synthetic onyx.)

#1 could possibly produce it in large quantities.

(AND, it gets around Criptfeind's argument, because the value of the land can be quite expensive! ;))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on June 07, 2017, 01:55:07 pm

I'm sure a society like this one would have no problem raiding and pillaging for onyx. Undead hordes, vampire nobles, and I guess a few human guards as well... perhaps not the best large-scale raiders, however. Besides, if power is tied to the value, won't onyx get more valuable, and hence more powerful, as it gets scarcer?

Alternatively, trade for onyx could be carried out, perhaps by nobles who have learned crafts to impossibly masterful degrees out of boredom. Or by a skilled human class. Naturally, the latter might seek to take their goods and services directly to the buyers, other kingdoms that care about things apart from death and blood, but the heavily restricted roads would prevent them from doing so. Open country, you say? Fifty thousand semi-controlled undead beg to disagree.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 02:12:43 pm

I kinda like the use of Method#1 above though.

If you throw in some kinks-- To use a parcel of land to create artificial gemstones, you need:

1) The spell perk, obviously (House rules, so can be NPC only)
2) A parcel of land who's value is greater than the value of the mineral load you intend to create on it.
3) Refined raw materials to sew into the parcel of land, from which to precipitate the gemstones, who have a high cost value, due to the labor involved in their manufacture/purity.
4) A sum of gold to pay for administration fees, and servicing fee for the geomancer doing the dirty work.
5) Once created, the value of the load of gemstones, minus the costs of the raw material and admin fees, are permanently subtracted from the land parcel's value, in the form of ecological damage. (meaning the land's value permanently drops if you cheese it on the materials or fees paid, which means if you try again later, you cannot produce as many gems, as your land parcel's value is permanently reduced from your mismanagement)

This will invariably create a potentially infinite supply of gemstones, as long as you supply the needed cashflow, without reducing the value of the resulting products. (The resulting products are used industrially, and their demand is tied to that industrial use-- they are consumed by the process that uses them, so the market cannot become saturated. The cost naturally incorporates all prior cost centers, (admin fees, processing fees, wages, etc.), so the synthetic onyx will be more expensive than imported natural stone-- just more available in bulk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 07, 2017, 02:18:29 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 07, 2017, 01:26:59 pm

Onyx can be produced synthetically. Unless there is a requirement that it be NATURAL onyx, simple mineral quartz and a few other ingredients can be used to mass manufacture it, under the right conditions.

Re: vivomancy-- it noted that I did not know what game system he was using, but that SOME systems did use it as a magic school.  Since this is a home-brewed scenario, he can homebrew that in too, since the society would naturally favor the emergence of something like it, simply due to economic pressures.

Draignean:

Easy enough-- Collect the old, who have a large reserve of life experiences, or the very young who have a high blood debt, but high vitality-- and instead of simply insanguining them, put them into the vats, and artificially sustain them.  When they can no longer be sustained, their corpses become the raw material for the farming labor industry. If you want added horror, say they are alive and conscious through this entire process.

Craft: Flesh Bonsai would certainly be an interesting skill, but it would require a great deal of forethought.

Ah, but the old are filled with the thoughts of their own mortality: A bitter vintage indeed, and if they're kept conscious through the process... Well, that presents its own problems with the flavor. The result would be something potentially sustaining, but also very nearly unpalatable. As mentioned by a later post, perhaps useful as a method of extending the food supply for lower rungs of the necrocracy.

The culinary vampires do certainly collect the old who are interesting, and the culinary vampires are most certainly the ones running the orphanages and debtors prisons, and then you get back into suspended dream states. 

Getting the most blood out the population is not the problem the Necrocracy has been dealing with, there has never been a cataclysmically major shortage of blood during their tenure, and thus the focus of their research into blood has been one of pleasurable quality valued high above quantity.

In general, Necrocrat vampires are loathe to create more Necrocrat vampires. It means more people tugging at the pie, trying to get their own piece. It can certainly strengthen your side, particularly if you've got enough space to keep them enslaved, but then you've got to take care of the neonate in the great political machinations created by a court of vampires that have very little better to do with their time than stab each other in the back and indulge in the most succulent pleasures.

Quote from: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 01:50:21 pm

It wouldn't matter anyway, since in D&D undead creation is tied directly to the material value of the catalyst. If you start mass producing onyx, your spells will soon need more and more of the stuff. To the point where you're jamming their skulls full of handfuls of the stuff, filling their chest cavities with rocks, and eventually having to grind up massive onyx boulders to bathe the bones in their dust!

Truely woe to the necromancer who thinks he might find a way to improve the efficiency of his craft.

I'm more likely to rule that the gold-piece cost to produce onyx happens to coincidentally match (or even exceed) the GP value of current onyx at the same size. It's kind of a kludge option, but it's workable.

I honestly hadn't considered the material implications of the undead farm labor. Onyx would become the new oil.

Quote from: NJW2000 on June 07, 2017, 01:55:07 pm

I'm sure a society like this one would have no problem raiding and pillaging for onyx. Undead hordes, vampire nobles, and I guess a few human guards as well... perhaps not the best large-scale raiders, however. Besides, if power is tied to the value, won't onyx get more valuable, and hence more powerful, as it gets scarcer?

Alternatively, trade for onyx could be carried out, perhaps by nobles who have learned crafts to impossibly masterful degrees out of boredom. Or by a skilled human class. Naturally, the latter might seek to take their goods and services directly to the buyers, other kingdoms that care about things apart from death and blood, but the heavily restricted roads would prevent them from doing so. Open country, you say? Fifty thousand semi-controlled undead beg to disagree.

I like the GP value system of magic about as much as I like forced alignment changes. You'll still need the same amount of Onyx, regardless of what you pay for it or its value relative to the nearest adjacent economy.

As far as raiding goes, one of the very, very few things the Dracolich forbade his pet vampires was open war between eachother. The lines of the old nations now represent clan territories under the control of various bloodlords, and that's final. No bloodlord is allowed to openly steal or attack the properties of another lord.

Keyword: openly. Onyx raiding might be a job given to a group of Talents that look suspiciously like adventurers.

As far as roads: Roads are great as long as you are openly property to someone. The Necrocracy is strongly Lawful Evil, and they want their society to run like a well oiled machine, one designed to turn a mortal life into a tasty beverage, a useful asset, or an entertaining diversion.

Quote from: wierd on June 07, 2017, 02:12:43 pm

I kinda like the use of Method#1 above though.

If you throw in some kinks-- To use a parcel of land to create artificial gemstones, you need:

1) The spell perk, obviously (House rules, so can be NPC only)
2) A parcel of land who's value is greater than the value of the mineral load you intend to create on it.
3) Refined raw materials to sew into the parcel of land, from which to precipitate the gemstones, who have a high cost value, due to the labor involved in their manufacture/purity.
4) A sum of gold to pay for administration fees, and servicing fee for the geomancer doing the dirty work.
5) Once created, the value of the load of gemstones, minus the costs of the raw material and admin fees, are permanently subtracted from the land parcel's value, in the form of ecological damage. (meaning the land's value permanently drops if you cheese it on the materials or fees paid, which means if you try again later, you cannot produce as many gems, as your land parcel's value is permanently reduced from your mismanagement)

This will invariably create a potentially infinite supply of gemstones, as long as you supply the needed cashflow, without reducing the value of the resulting products. (The resulting products are used industrially, and their demand is tied to that industrial use-- they are consumed by the process that uses them, so the market cannot become saturated. The cost naturally incorporates all prior cost centers, (admin fees, processing fees, wages, etc.), so the synthetic onyx will be more expensive than imported natural stone-- just more available in bulk.

I like this idea rather a lot. I mean, there'd have to be repercussions, but there's a fun one in the setting's wings that would be rather nice to drop in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 07, 2017, 02:41:47 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on June 07, 2017, 01:50:21 pm

It wouldn't matter anyway, since in D&D undead creation is tied directly to the material value of the catalyst. If you start mass producing onyx, your spells will soon need more and more of the stuff. To the point where you're jamming their skulls full of handfuls of the stuff, filling their chest cavities with rocks, and eventually having to grind up massive onyx boulders to bathe the bones in their dust!

Truely woe to the necromancer who thinks he might find a way to improve the efficiency of his craft.

On the other hand, if onyx isn't being mined or magically created by the Necrocracy, it quickly becomes scarce and exceedingly valuable.  Which mostly solves the problem... right?  Maaaybe.  The spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) does call for "a" gem for each corpse, so an ounce or two of powder might be too fragmented to work.  To my dorfy shame I'm not that good with mineral science, but I'm getting the impression that thin "wafers" of onyx wouldn't be practical either.

That's fine though, it just means there'd be a market for onyx to be mined or fabricated.  The government would probably want (or be expected) to keep the value stable, such that mass-produced gems of a standard size could be relied on to work.  I imagine this would be done by keeping a Fort Knox style bunker full of onyx.  As long as it's owned, it's keeping the scarcity down, and serves as a strategic reserve as well.

Remember that movie where the villain wanted to irradiate Fort Knox simply to increase the value of his own gold holdings?  Hmmmmmmmm.

Fakedit:  Aww, I always kinda liked the "cast by expending value" system :P  Maybe because in our post-undead-apocalypse survival DND campaign, we were allowed to used pre-apocalypse "treasure" to fuel XP costs for spells (and I think some material costs).  Or maybe I just liked the funky implications of currency and precious materials value-backed by magic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 03:19:56 pm

Draignean:  Loathe to create, does not equal "does not create."

Some compelling situations:  Micromanagement of a state does not work. The more holdings you have, or the more complex the system becomes, the more administrative overhead there is.  Either you dare to allow mere mortals to hold positions as bureaucrats, and run the risk of constantly having to retrain replacements as they invariably die horribly from old age--- OR, you find some way to keep an immortal workforce who never needs replacement or retraining, and bind them to your will somehow.  I see immortal vampire lords favoring this second one, with promotion to "bureaucrat" being one of the coveted ways of climbing up the social ladder mortals have open to them-- but only being granted to those that are exceptionally useful (already trained), AND already exceedingly loyal (Easy to bind to service). Said bureaucrats subsisting on "Grog", or other low quality vintages, as they need to keep their cunning, and not lapse into decadence.  That privilege is held for upper crust vampires. As such, bureaucrats are always looking for ways to subtly escape an eternity of toil and monotony, and seek ways to either annex nearby uncontrolled territory (EG, neighboring human-run kingdoms) through legal trickery (and thus move up the totem pole to regional governor, etc. without engaging in open warfare), or to destabilize controlled territories through similar means (Still fiercely loyal to their creator, they never undermine their own power base, just that of rival lords, and never openly.) 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 07, 2017, 03:47:14 pm

Quite, the Necrocracy grows, but it grows slowly, and with far more Vampire Spawn than Full Vampires- which already forces you very deep into second class citizen territory as far as Vampire politics is concerned.  That would be a rather fun character- a mortal bureaucrat turned spawn in order to perpetually govern an outlying province, always desperately trying to put on the airs of being a 'real vampire'.

Necrotic cysts would be an interesting way to control certain living officials. They're a mechanic added in Libris mortis that basically lets you put a control tumor in a living creature, to either invade their mind if you're a decent enough necromancer, or to explode hideously painfully if you're a bit less skilled...

There's a lot of possibilities for non-elite, particularly when you think about how many generally oppressed classes and/or entities could hold positions of prestige and power. Necropolitan transformation would be an easy way to get servants that aren't anymore powerful than a regular mortal, but immortal w/ maintenance. Can't be bound as thralls easily, but it's a good way to keep around a skilled individual well past their time. Were-critters of varying stripes are always fun, and they don't mind eating plain meat too much.

Ah, well, as stated. It's a fun setting to think about, I'm just paranoid that the players will go 'but everything is horrible!' and bug out to the nearest not horrible place. Granted, that's only happened once, but the character with the plot macguffin was the one who buggered off and left everyone else to die in a hopeless battle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on June 07, 2017, 04:40:09 pm

Quote from: Draignean on June 07, 2017, 03:47:14 pm

Ah, well, as stated. It's a fun setting to think about, I'm just paranoid that the players will go 'but everything is horrible!' and bug out to the nearest not horrible place. Granted, that's only happened once, but the character with the plot macguffin was the one who buggered off and left everyone else to die in a hopeless battle.

I mean, it at least seems a lot better than Ravenloft, where no one is allowed to enjoy themselves and there's only one guy in charge who you can't ever kill permanently. At least in your setting there's room for political intrigue. Yours sounds like a setting I'd like to play in, whereas I'd probably only want to go back to Ravenloft to finish the campaign I was in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 07, 2017, 08:22:34 pm

Need 2 more before I start that D&D Basic game. Might have a third slot open too if one of the players doesn't get back to me.

PM me if interested. Do note that its more for learning mechanics

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 07, 2017, 08:55:08 pm

Worth considering: you need to create lots of skeletal workers, but all you have is a pile of fresh corpses! Skeletons are cheaper and faster than zombies, and probably much less likely to spread nasty diseases among the living. So naturally there would be an industry devoted to stripping the flesh from corpses, leaving only the bones to be raised as cheap labor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 07, 2017, 09:03:00 pm

Which nicely reduces the amount of farming you have to do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 07, 2017, 09:12:37 pm

Or, supplies human flesh for other kinds of undead, like ghouls.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 09:44:54 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 07, 2017, 08:55:08 pm

Worth considering: you need to create lots of skeletal workers, but all you have is a pile of fresh corpses! Skeletons are cheaper and faster than zombies, and probably much less likely to spread nasty diseases among the living. So naturally there would be an industry devoted to stripping the flesh from corpses, leaving only the bones to be raised as cheap labor.

Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) actually does this as part of its spell description, whenever you animate a skeleton within a meatier corpse the flesh, organs and skin just kind of slough off for the most part.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 07, 2017, 09:47:53 pm

Aw, really? That really seems to take the fun out of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 10:01:07 pm

Very convenient on the field though, especially as a method of defiling the corpses of your enemies so they can't get easily raised afterward.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: heydude6 on June 07, 2017, 10:10:55 pm

According to the spell description, you have to walk up to the corpse to place the gem in its mouth (where it will likely be surrounded by enemies). You can't just animate it from range like you can in Dungeon crawl Stone soup

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 10:20:28 pm

Well, corpse defilement is usually a thing you do post-battle rather than during it, with some possible exceptions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 08, 2017, 12:31:42 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 07, 2017, 10:20:28 pm

Well, corpse defilement is usually a thing you do post-battle rather than during it, with some possible exceptions.

I got for telefragging. I tend to let my players do this after they kill enemies, but never when they're alive. Ask Mastahcheese; it was his calling card

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 08, 2017, 01:36:13 am

There's a couple of classes or alternate builds that don't worry about the onyx requirement for creating undead.

In 3.5e the Warlock class has a lesser invocation called The Dead Walk that lets you either animate dead permanently using onyx or temporarily for 1 minute per caster level without onyx, after which they crumble to dust.

In Pathfinder there's a variant magic system called Words of Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power/) that is honestly a terrible downgrade for most spellcaster classes. However, one quirk of the system is that it has two useful features: the ability to use Summon Monster spells as standard actions instead of full round actions, and the ability to use Animate Dead without material components and at range. You can pick up this feature with a single Feat called Experimental Spellcaster if you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 08, 2017, 06:45:20 am

If you're producing a lot of Necropolitans as a "slightly higher then mortal but still very low" caste, you could also spell stitch them (although you'd probably have to either find a way to handwave away or avoid the exp cost, since it's probably not worthwhile for a big old necromancer to be draining himself so heavily and so often for a shitty caste), give them animate undead and then you'll have a nice little undead herder who can make and upkeep a handful of skeletons or zombies for free (and also have some other basic magic abilities to help keep the peace or be useful in a war)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 08, 2017, 09:14:10 am

You could use the (optional?) rule to expend gold rather than XP and charge them for the honor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 09, 2017, 12:06:42 pm

Alright, so I've really just got to throw on a banner, give everything another once over, and then it can go to print. Still not happy with that intro, but I've written it so many times now I've gone cross-eyed.

If anyone's insane enough to read through and give me an opinion, I'd appreciate it.

---

There were Five heroes prophesied to save this world from an age of darkness and servitude- five heroes that would stand at the pivot point of an era, unite the warring nations, and champion the fight for light and liberty.

Five were foretold, five arose, and five died upon the broken earth they were meant to heal.

They died, their quests unfulfilled and their nations broken, two hundred and twenty-seven years, eight months, two weeks, and three days ago. The details of 'why' and 'how' are sparse, truth obscured by two centuries of history written by victors, but the current hierarchy of the world is quite plain.

There is no Sovereign but the Dracolich Makkai.
The Necrocracy serves the Dracolich.
The Mortals serve the Necrocracy, else they are served to the Necrocracy.

Perhaps the first century was bloodier. Perhaps then the wild men were a real rebellion, not some group of primitive malcontents struggling to escape the reach of the Necrocracy. Perhaps then the Gods of light and love offered some protection to their peoples and were not relegated to crude altars assembled in warrens and forgotten wayshrines. Perhaps, once, long ago, people dreamed of restoring the old ways.

If so, then ten generations living under the new order have done much to quell such desires.

A few of the longer lived (or simply immortal) species might still burn with resentment, but their numbers are few, and culled quickly when they show signs of organized resistance. Most people are happy enough to eke out a living- evading the blood price as best they can, and protecting any who they love in the same manner. The Necrocrats, by and large, are not wantonly cruel masters, and they are perfectly happy to allow the more useful members of the mortal species to serve them well in exchange for continued life. Ennui is a perpetual problem for the bloodlords, forbidden as they are from making open war on one another, and an interesting mortal is a wonderful way to wile away the years. There are always more cattle to feed upon, and there are always those willing to exchange their own blood for a pampered life of luxury as a pet.

It is into this life that you have been born. Whether into the pampered harem of a vampire aristrocrat or into the hard life of an outland farmer, you have lived all your days in a world where the Gods are weak and offer little succor, where the dracolich is King to all and God to many, and where your very life is considered to be property- whether you acknowledge that bond or not. Yet things are beginning to change. Armies whose roles had long ago been relegated to protecting the hinterlands from the more savage species have begun to be mustered in earnest. Those close to the necrocrats, whether they be daylight guardians, private entertainers, or valued artisans, have begun to see worrying traces of fear in their masters.

The world of the Quick and the Dead is changing once again. Perhaps you sense the prickle that precedes the lightning, perhaps you're blissfully unaware of the rising wind, but it doesn't really matter either way.

You're still going to be caught in the storm.

---

Here's the short and sweet version: Heroes of Prophecy done fucked up, but that was more than two centuries ago. Now the mainland of Ankos is pretty much owned by the Dracolich Makkai, and the cities are governed by his pet court of vampire aristocrats. The nations of the past exist only as territory lines for the bloodlords to bicker over, and the mortal races are kept principally as a labor producing food source.

You are one of the little people who has, through whatever means, managed to accumulate a decent amount of personal power. Perhaps you're part of a vampire's daylight guard, perhaps you're a hidden cleric trying to spread the divine in secret, or perhaps you're a freeman bandit who has grown strong in the wild. Whatever your skills, you have the kind of power that makes you start to stand out- which can be a very bad thing when everything in power is some flavor of carnivorous.

The spoilers below contain various bits of information. Bear in mind there is a gigantical vampiric wall of text hiding behind the first one. Do not trust the 'wee' descriptor, it lies.

What I'm Looking For

This is going to be a game hosted on Roll20. I'm pretty flexible for days, but it will likely be 17:30+ (GMT-5) unless by some miracle it happens on the weekend. Considered one of my IRL friends who wants in lives and works in Japan, there's a slight preference to Friday nights, but that's negotiable. Basically this game is to get my old D&D gang back together (we all graduated and moved to different places of the world) and add a few new people. The base group I have is 3~, so I'm only really looking for 3~ more people to join. That means I'm going to be fairly selective.

When you apply, give me the times you can be available (sessions will likely be 3-6 hours in length, leaning to 3-4 hour side of things), and give me an interesting character. If you're new, that's OK. We can help you learn if you're interesting enough, otherwise we'll kill you and eat your liver. None of us are really hardcore powergamers, we're a more story and interaction focused group, so bear that in mind.

Spoiler: The World in a Wee Bit More Mechanical Detail (click to show/hide)

The Necrocracy
Once, long ago, the Necrocracy was nearly entirely composed of vampires and vampire spawn. These original members have grown old and powerful, and act as the powerful figures today. Nearly all bloodlords, those chosen Vampires who rule over the territories once held by the nations of old, come from the original group of vampires led by the Dracolich Makkai. There are few things forbidden to these legendary figures, and only one rule which they are forced to adhere to by the Dracolich: no open infighting. The territories of the Bloodlords ape the lines drawn on maps more than two centuries ago, and while deals and pacts have occasionally changed the landscape every so slightly, the bloodlords are forbidden from expanding their territories by force of war with one another. This has led to a race of expansion into the hinterlands to the south and east, which in turn has resulted in a patchwork of exclave territories technically 'claimed' by one bloodlord or another, and unable to be removed by direct force due to Makkai's pact.

These hinterlands are savage places, pushing up against territories once left to fierce beasts and tribes of the goblinoid races in the south, and cutting directly through ancient forests that the fae once forced the empires of the old world to abandon in the east. This is to say little of the contrived plots and 'accidents' perpetrated by the competing bloodlords in order to further their own territories at the expense of their rivals, and yet the hinterlands are also one of the few places where an individual can be said to be free. Despite the interferences from the bloodlords, it is a rare event indeed when a true Vampire, or even a Spawn, visits an outlying holding. The journey is often dangerous, and as long as the province returns a reasonable profit of resources and holds its borders fast, the bloodlords could care less about the day to day life of the citizenry.

Though not vampiric, those who actually govern the patchwork provinces are still considered to be Necrocrats, which is rather telling of the shift in the Necrocracy's structure that has occurred over the years. Two centuries of expansion and the integration of races and individuals too dangerous or valuable to subjugate completely have altered its ranks considerably. Not all its members are vampires, and a good number aren't even dead yet. True Vampires no longer make up the majority in the Necrocracy, not even if one counts their spawn, and while they still hold the positions of highest power. This change has led to a system of 'circles', which delineate the relative power of the Necrocrat members. Moving between circles is a delicate affair for non-vampires: Rising is a slow and arduous process, while falling is both simple and precipitous.

The first circle, the founders, are principally composed of the original true vampires that worked with the Dracolich Makkai. All Bloodlords are of the first circle, which does mean that one or two of the members of the newer vampire generations of climbed up despite their youth. Very, very few non-vampire creatures attain this rank, and all are beings of exceptional and unique power. To date, no living creature has ever ascended this high within the necrocracy.  The first circle manages the nations.

The second circle is made up of the founding spawn, vampires made in the first or early second century, and a select few creatures strong enough to be considered equals. The first circle rules nations, or else mire themselves in their personal pursuits, but the second circle is often put in charge of the day to day of governing the necropoli, collecting the blood tax, and ensuring that society keeps moving slowly. The second circle manages the cities.

The third circle is where things begin to get... complex.  Older spawn occupy this layer in force, acting as city officials, plantation managers, military officers, et cetera. Vampires less than four decades dead are also often third circle denizens, tending small portions of the projects given to second circle vampires. Yet this is also the place where powerful individuals, living and dead, often find themselves.  Grell Philosophers, Lycanthrope Lords, even particularly powerful (9th level+) mortal instruments who have proven their value as independent agents can find themselves here.  The third circle manages people and is often in charge of implementing the details of the plans of the first and second circle.

The fourth circle is a very mixed bag of powerful creatures, vampires in social disgrace, lower power undead sycophants, and useful mortals that are either trusted or (more often) turned into necropolitans and set out to eternal tasks. It is this group that is often put in charge of individual farming villages or, in the case of the non-vampire members, govern one of the patchwork provinces on behalf of a bloodlord. The fourth circle manages the necessary work that is either too monotonous or dangerous to be handled by the third circle.

In sum, the Necrocracy itself isn't one monumental block of vampires and only vampires. Many creatures that would have been hunted and killed two centuries ago find that they fit in quite comfortably to the lower ranks of the necrocrat hierarchy- even if they aren't quite dead yet. Valued mortals may be transformed into undead, either as necropolitans awakened zombies/skeletons/ghouls.

For the creatures that feed upon human flesh, rather than blood, life in the necrocracy is still one of relative comfort. While the cost to eat a juice mortal in its prime is quite high (a mortal produces quite a lot of blood over its lifetime), there is now lack of bodies that have passed their time, and the necrocracy is often supportive of dealing with rebellious elements via eating them. No one wants to join a revolution where the last batch of 'heroes' got fed to Grell.

The Necropoli
The Necropoli are the cities of the old world that are now run by the Necrocracy. While someone of the old world might reasonably question the survivability of living in a city that is ruled by blood-drinking undead, the Necropoli are rather safe places to live if you're a functional part of the new order. The Necrocrats WANT mortals to live and reproduce- they depend on them for sustenance. They want the people to be well fed, for that enables more frequent and deeper feeding. They want their citizens to feel safe and as happy as possible, for happens sweetens the vintage as much as fear sours it.

The stratification of the Necropolis is strict and is based on the Blood Tax. The Blood Tax is essentially an amount of constitution points living blood that the mortal denizens must pay to the Necrocracy. Now, since a once yearly tax collected in literal blood would kill far too many people (and this damage future productivity), the Necrocracy modified the existing currency. Put simply, they collected the old currency, reminted it to make it distinctive, and made coinage represent blood. Thus any fine you cannot pay, any debt that you are in, can quite literally be extracted from you. Criminal punishment is defined in terms of how much blood you lose and has forced petty crime to the brink of nonexistence. Why risk being nearly exsanguinated for a bauble when there are institutions set up to allow you to voluntarily give up your blood for greater reward and greater safety?

Blood is life. Money is blood. Thus, Money is life. 

Much like the necrocracy itself, one can separate necropolis denizens into four distinct layers. Every member of every layer except for the Petermen (the lowest) carries a small, slightly magical card of lacquered wood. Written on the wood is the vital information of the denizen: name, age, approximate mass, which bloodlord they are beholden to, their social standing, and, most importantly, the quality, flavor, and final value of their blood. The cards are taken in and re-issued once per year at a census-like event known as the Tasting. During the Tasting, each citizen is reinspected for changes in physical attributes and their blood sampled by one of a number of recognized gourmands among the vampire elite. Their blood is then revalued, and their card reissued until the next Tasting. The minor enchantments on the card prevent the information from being modified in a trivial or accidental manner, and are designed to make a focused attempt at modification very easy to detect upon inspection of the card.

These lacquer cards, known as vint cards for their role in determining the value of an individual's particular blood vintage, and thus the base value of their continued existence, are the hallmark of the mortal citizens of the necrocracy, and do much to reinforce the four prime castes of citizen.

 At the bottom, you have the petermen, individuals who do not recognize the fact that they are property and refuse to submit to the taxation. At least, that's the theory. Anyone without a vint card is regarded as a peterman, subject to punishment as such.  These are criminals beyond normal criminals. Any citizen who catches a peterman can bring them to a Tax House, where they will be bled and the equivalent blood price paid back to the captor. That being said, the punishing of petermen is often lenient on minors and for the week or two after the Tasting.

A fair step above that you have the general population, the Kine or Cattle. Cattle is the term for people who do not actually produce anything but instead exist by selling their blood. Often unskilled, Cattle are kept in line by force and by a substantial selection of entertainments and pleasures. Fear, after all, spoils the taste of the meat, and a substantial caste of vampires is dedicated to nothing but perfecting various experiences in order to concoct new flavors of blood. The average quality of life for one of the Cattle is likely substantially higher than it was 200 years ago. After all, when mortals were free, there was little intrinsic value to being alive. Now life is a commodity you can sell by degrees. For the Kine, life is one of revelry and experience. Every aspect of their life is tied to the value of their blood, their vint, which is determined by the annual Tasting. Rich life, full of pleasure, spiced with a little pain, enriched with hope, and made sharp with the poignancy from a touch of sorrow, is a very valuable commodity, and one that every kine struggles to produce.

Only slightly above the Kine are the Rathe. Rathe are mortals who provide services to the cattle, in exchange for the money the cattle received for their blood. Rathe are thief-catchers, bar owners, blacksmiths, prostitutes, chefs, carpenters, rag and bone men- any individual who earns (primarily) earns money by selling a service to cattle (or other Rathe) instead of directly selling their own blood. Of course, a Rathe has a vint card and a measured value to their blood, but the distinction is that a Rathe plies his or her trade in order to make money, not gain experience in order to make his or her blood richer. A Rathe earns most, if not all, of their money from their skills, not their blood. Many Rathe were Kine in their younger years, mastering trades in order to supplement the dwindling income from their aging and devaluing blood.

Substantially above the Rathe are the Talents. Talents are Rathe who are of sufficient skill that, instead of selling their services to Cattle, sell them directly to members of the Necrocracy. Talents, again, can be anything. A Duskblade acting as a daylight guardian, a favored Harem girl/boy, a provisioner who somehow knows just the right way to obtain valuable objects, a storyteller that still manages to be entertaining to a centuries old audience, a smith capable of working dragonscale and adamantine, etc. Such individuals are often paid well with coin, largely to prevent other members of the Necrocracy from stealing their services at a better rate. While they possess vint cards, and gourmands may compete to see who has the pleasure of tasting the blood of a well-esteemed Talent, Talents rarely engage in the direct sale of their blood.


The Farms
While the Necropoli are designed to transform a mortal into a delicious meal, the mortals still require food of their own. Moreover, pleasurable and indulgent foods make for good memories and the kind of deliciously savory experiences that enrich the vint.  Food for the common man is no longer a simple fair of bread, porridge, and vegetables to be occasionally supplemented with a little meat. Two centuries have done much to push daily cuisine into one of greater flavor and quality, one of spiced vegetables, complex soups, succulent meats, and delicate confections. Thus it is that the life of the country farmer, rather than disappearing under the rule of a race that has no direct need of their product, has become both vital and complex.

The kind of farms made two centuries ago, those centering around villages or the estates of former lords, still exist. For some, the routine has barely changed. While there is a far greater call for the exotic and the delicious, the demands of practicality require that the mortal Kine consume a staple of more mundane food. Hinterland farms, and farms further from the necropoli, are most likely to be the ones farming old-world crops, but 'barely changed' is not the same as 'unchanged'. Undead labor is employed liberally in order to aid farming, with rather profound results. Skeletal humanoids act as laborers that can work without tire, and undead horses function in much the same manner. Small skeletal animals, such as rats, squirrels, mice, and weasels are employed as constant insect and weed control units, constantly moving around and through crops, uprooting nascent weeds, and tearing apart deleterious insects. It's an effective system, if a slightly horrifying one. It does, however, require a necromancer skilled enough to impart relatively complex commands to the undead, and a farmer with the experience and skill to be able to adequately describe deleterious insects and weeds in enough detail for the necromancer to impart the difference between a weed and a crop or between a pollinating insect and a pest to his undead.

Farms that raise animals, such as cattle or pigs, are more traditional. No amount of acclimation is sufficient to completely calm a mundane animal around the presence of concentrated undeath, and so mortal farmers still carry out their trades much as they always have. It's a relatively free life, considering that the presence of an undead overseer typically has an even worse effect than skeletal ranch hands.

While the farms of old function much as they did, with the addition of manual labor, the increased demand for spices and exotics lead to the creation of the modern Necrocrat plantations. Typically kept relatively close to the necropolis, a plantation is a sprawling system of greenhouses and controlled environments. A single plantation is typically dedicated to one type of climate, such as mimicking a desert and growing exotic spices, or mimicking a saltwater ocean in order to raise fresh fish within walking distance of a landlocked necropolis. These advanced structures are often run by highly skilled farmers converted into necropolitans, thus ensuring their long life while not subjecting them to a vulnerability sunlight. A single plantation might have a half dozen magic users of various stripes on staff in order to maintain the environments, at least twice that number of skilled artisans and engineers who watch over and tune the mechanical devices which keep the biomes stable, and a hundred or more undead workers with species specialized to individual tasks.


The Endless Mines
In order to maintain a growing and increasingly decadent necrocracy, the mortal population must expand in order to fulfill the need for blood. In order to maintain a growing human population, and to constantly increase the quality of blood produced by the growing population, the farming base which supports the mortals must be expanded and redesigned using an increasing reliance on tireless labor by mindless undead. In order to maintain an ever growing force of undead workers you need two things: a steady influx of new necromancers, and a steadily increasing supply of onyx- the material component of the reanimation spell. 

The first problem is addressed in a variety of ways, some more horrible than others, but it's the latter that created the labyrinthine construct known as the endless mines. After natural onyx deposits on Ankos began to show signs of running dry, Necrocrat wizards began searching for a means of either divining enough new sources to last into the foreseeable future, or to develop a means of creating a suitable substitute.

In a way, they ended up with both. Initial attempts at creating onyx farms in magical laboratories were a failure. While high-quality Onyx could be used as a sort of self-propagating seed gem, the energy requirement to grow it seemed prohibitive- until a rather clever young vampire secured his rise to the first circle by attempting to grow the Onyx in a matrix of natural stone that could (but didn't) naturally contain onyx, rather than a medium of crushed rock or soil. The resulting Onyx clusters matured within a year and were of sufficient size to be moderately cost effective, but the geomancy grew more effective with increasing volumes of natural stone, which brings us to the Endless Mines.

The Endless Mines were once natural Onyx mines, tapped dry by continuous mining. With the advent of the geomancy needed to revitalize them and grow new onyx clusters within the surrounding rock, the mines have been reopened on a permanent basis. There are six Endless Mines, and each one was personally enchanted by the Dracolich Makkai- one of the few direct actions he's ever taken in the affairs of the necrocracy. The resulting enchantment continuously burrows into the rock, creating more onyx as hard labor expands the tunnels. The rituals required to keep the enchantment going are reserved to second or third circle necrocrats, and are performed once a year at the winter equinox. The materials required for the ritual are closely guarded secrets, but the ritualists always leave with a healthy complement of older Kine, and they never come back with them.

The Endless Mines are, somewhat ironically, manned primarily by undead. However, several of the mines are used as prisoners who can't simply be drained as punishment and are too valuable to kill outright. Members of the Necrocracy that have fallen into utter disgrace can be sent into the mines as penance. Time is of little consequence to a vampire, but the humiliation of manual labor, combined with the maddening thirst of being trapped in the mines, is a harsh punishment indeed.

Spoiler: Character Creation (click to show/hide)

If you are new to D&D, do not panic. I will help. Even if you don't get in, I'll at least talk you through character creation.

Characters will be starting at level 6. For the sake of sanity, we're going to be using a 32 point buy system for vital attributes. If you really, desperately, want to do rolls, then I will give you a set of your six attributes rolls from  4d6 highest 3 rolls. However, that has as much chance to screw you horribly as it does to give you an advantage at the start. Depends on how much you believe God Loves you.

Make sure you read the house rules. Feats gain is increased, and you can get a bit of an edge to your character by spending your skills properly. There's also a list of the books that I'm more used to at the bottom. If you want a race/feat/feature from another book, just ask and I'll squint at things for a while and come to a random decision.

Starting money will be approximately 13k, but I reserve the right to lower or raise that value based on your character's backstory and current setting. The loyal Talent of a Necrocrat is likely to get a buff to starting assets, while the mountain renegade is quite likely to take a hit.

Certain items, again, I might prod you for how you got them. An item that lets you control undead, for instance, is NOT going to sit well with the Necrocracy. Same thing goes for holy water. Still, I'll try not to rib you too much of your starting equipment as long as there's some reasonable handwavium in there.

I strongly, STRONGLY, advise using Mythweavers (https://www.myth-weavers.com/) or similar for your character sheets. It's a nice way to store data _{assuming they don't lose their shit again} and lets me look at it a lot more cleanly than forum formatting.

Spoiler: House Rules (click to show/hide)

'Soft' Alignments
My games have a slightly different take alignments than in the core rules. Pretty much any effect that mandates a hard alignment change (with the exception of a few very specific ones, like the Morality Undone spell) can be regarded as a suggestion rather than a hard rule. Vampirism and Lycanthropy, for instance, are conditions that come with mandatory alignment changes in the core rules. I don't really like the idea that the base soul of a character can be permanently overwritten in a single moment- without any conscious choice on the part of the character.

Morality is a matter of choices, the things you do of your own free will. As such conditions like Vampirism and Lycanthropy have a lot of very bad choices associated with them (How will you slake a thirst for the blood of your former kith? Can you stand to let the one you love die as a mortal, even if it's what they want?), and it's the character's reaction to their choices that decides whether their morality slides. A chaotic good slave, who stole from his masters in order to provide for those weaker, might become chaotic neutral after becoming inflicted with lycanthropy and using his newfound strength to embark on a mission of vengeance against his masters- without regard for how his former compatriots are punished for his actions. A slide to Chaotic Evil is possible from there if said slave begins to blur the line of hate between slaver and slave, burning a plantation down without care for whether the guilty or the innocent are consumed.

In short, permanent alignment changes require a choice to be made. Changes in race and type are merely events that come associated with a shift in your equilibrium with the world and thus require complex choices that may lead to moments that can redefine a character.

Feats are Fun!
You gain feats every odd level. So does everyone/everything else.

Just In Time crafting
This system of crafting is available. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/craftPoints.htm) Basically it just makes things less of a headache when you realize you're out of arrows/forgot the grappling hook/really should have silvered that weapon/etc. You'll still need minor facilities, or at least some form of handwavium to explain why you're fantasy MacGyver, but the system is there if you want to tap it.

Character Building Incentives
So, one of the best characters I ever played was a Duskblade named Takorski Brevedant. I voiced him with a thick Russian accent, and he regularly relied on the advice of his awakened mule. He also had a good amount of skill points invested in Profession: Toymaker and Craft: Toy. He routinely asked the part to wait a moment before attacking a particularly interesting creature, just so that he could finish a sketch of it that he could use as a reference to make it into a child's toy at a later date. He never made money on the toys, he typically gave them away, and the Toymaking sill only became useful when he used it to make a large murder-doll for one of our dead party members to have their soul stitched back into, but it was fun.

The point is this: it's really nice to use skills to flesh out a character's personality. However, skill points are precious things and it's all too tempting on skills that might save your life instead of character building. So here's the thing, if you max out two skills (Or spend 50% of your skill points, whichever is smaller) that are just for your character's fluff and personality, I'll give you a voucher to reduce any LA by one, down to 0. Of course, this is subject to approval, since there are a couple LA+1 templates that are a bit stronk. In essence, I'm going to try and make you metagame less in your skills by giving you the opportunity to metagame more.

Of course, the Gods will punish those who take this option and don't make said non-essential skills a part of their character.

Spoiler: The Books I'm Comfortable Using (click to show/hide)

Okay, so this is the list of books that I (shouldn't) bat too much of an eyelash over you using. There are still feat combinations between books (particularly metamagic ones) that I will house rule as needed (because they're borked), but I've read through most of these.

If you want content from another book, just ask. I'll give it a look and see if it fits. If you're new to D&D and utterly intimidated by this list of books, that's okay. See the spoiler in Making Characters- I will help you.

Players Handbook I
Players Handbook II
Monster Manual I
Monster Manual II
Monster Manual III
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Warrior
Complete Adventurer
Complete Scoundrel (I admit, I have not read through this fully so I may regret throwing it in blithely.)
Lords of Madness
Libris Mortis

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NJW2000 on June 09, 2017, 12:40:40 pm

Seemed pretty great, fun read, exciting and different setting. Couple of syntax errors but fairly few for such a large text. And anyone who wants to play DnD shouldn't shrink from a few thousand words.

Definitely a good hook, though it isn't quite clear what the PCs are actually going to do... that might be intended, I dunno.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on June 09, 2017, 01:05:56 pm

What is the difference vwrqween a true vampire and an untrue one?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 09, 2017, 01:15:40 pm

Looks cool. Sadly for me, that time is sorta an unreliable time for me at the moment, so I probably can't join. Out of interest though, what are the rules for becoming a necropolitan? Since they come up a lot in the setting I'd think there'd be interest in playing them. But starting the game as one has a bit of a questionmark on what the effect on your character would be (since the exp drain is something someone could reasonably have made up for by level 6 or so anyway.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 09, 2017, 01:44:58 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 09, 2017, 01:05:56 pm

What is the difference vwrqween a true vampire and an untrue one?

True Vampire = Vampire
Untrue Vampire = Vampire Spawn or Half-Vampire

Quote from: Criptfeind on June 09, 2017, 01:15:40 pm

Looks cool. Sadly for me, that time is sorta an unreliable time for me at the moment, so I probably can't join. Out of interest though, what are the rules for becoming a necropolitan? Since they come up a lot in the setting I'd think there'd be interest in playing them. But starting the game as one has a bit of a questionmark on what the effect on your character would be (since the exp drain is something someone could reasonably have made up for by level 6 or so anyway.)

As far as becoming one, it's entirely possible that a mortal of the player's skill (Level 6 is nothing to scoff at) would have been sponsored, or mostly sponsored by their patron (if they have one). However, if it happens later rather than sooner, that level damage is a bit more telling.

Hmm. The less nice thing to do would simply be to declare it a LA+1 class, but that's not exactly a good method.  The class provides rather substantial benefits to the low hit-die side of the class family, but it's pretty bad for classes that usually have a decent constitution already. Decisions, decisions.

Since the XP drain would be compensated if you did it early enough, you'd lose that magical 10% of the way to the next level bonus you get at start (which is basically there so that you can create items before the game starts, if you're inclined. PPE: And I just realized I for some reason didn't include the starting XP boost in this boilerplate  :-\), and 3k gold.

Quote from: NJW2000 on June 09, 2017, 12:40:40 pm

though it isn't quite clear what the PCs are actually going to do... that might be intended, I dunno.

I have long ago determined that giving direction to PCs on where the plot is supposed to be is the quickest way to ensure they'll dismantle it. Plus, if I told you what was going to happen, you'd be able to adequately prepare for it, and we can't have that!

This is the world. You're in it. I'm about to pick the world up and shake it vigorously. Have fun!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: heydude6 on June 09, 2017, 02:26:11 pm

Sounds incredibly fascinating, though there are always details that could be elaborated on. Shame I won't be able to join due to roll 20. I'm assuming it's 5E edition since you don't seem to have rules for making necroplitans?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 09, 2017, 02:31:36 pm

That looks like a way fun game and I'm interested! I've never played 3.5 before though, so I'd probably not end up with a very mechanically complex character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 09, 2017, 02:37:56 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 09, 2017, 02:31:36 pm

That looks like a way fun game and I'm interested! I've never played 3.5 before though, so I'd probably not end up with a very mechanically complex character.

Well, I'll drop a link here when I'm done with the second reading and whatever I slap in as a banner.

Quote from: heydude6 on June 09, 2017, 02:26:11 pm

Sounds incredibly fascinating, though there are always details that could be elaborated on. Shame I won't be able to join due to roll 20. I'm assuming it's 5E edition since you don't seem to have rules for making necroplitans?

It's 3.5.

The ritual of Crucimigration, however, is slightly unspecific. The petition cost of the ritual (if you're using their one city of the dead) is 3000gp, and that is presumed to cover the costs of the ritual, but that's not actually explicitly stated. From there it costs one level as raise dead, and then another 1000 xp on top. Thus, it is possible to survive the ritual as early as middle level 2. If you do it at level 2, and are thus reduced by 2000 XP, that's relatively easily made up by further experience. Since the Necropolitan, at base, does not not have an LA, the XP gain should allow you to 'catch up' by the time you reach level 6.

The Necropolitan is well defined, but, without mapping out how and when a character received the experience that caused him/her to rise to level 6, it's difficult to determine exactly what their XP level would be at the start of the game.

Hence the oddness of it. At worst, the character would start one full level + 1000xp below everyone else (6000 xp), but without a LA. At best, they'd only be 600 or XP behind, since they'd only start 2000 XP behind and would be able to compensate with increased gain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 09, 2017, 05:23:29 pm

I'm way the fuck up for that, I've been pumped to make a 3.5 character for a very long time now. Got so many ridiculous ideas for 'em. That LA rule in particular makes me terribly interested.

The level 6 starting point is cool too, though I can't say I'd also not be very interested in starting from level 1 just to see how an ambitious and talented group of rathe managed to become truly great at what they do.

You might want to make a Discord for it though, since you're bringing in people from other places as well. Helps in coordinating character creation.

EDIT: Also, er, might want to be a bit careful with those links there Draig.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 09, 2017, 06:07:53 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 09, 2017, 05:23:29 pm

I'm way the fuck up for that, I've been pumped to make a 3.5 character for a very long time now. Got so many ridiculous ideas for 'em. That LA rule in particular makes me terribly interested.

The level 6 starting point is cool too, though I can't say I'd also not be very interested in starting from level 1 just to see how an ambitious and talented group of rathe managed to become truly great at what they do.

I thought about starting from level one, I really did. It would be interesting to see characters develop from a period where even the weakest member of the necrocracy is a lethal threat and paying for something using your blood is a serious option. It would certainly give a grittier feel to the game, where the players are a bit more in tune to the plight of the common kine, but it would also be the very devil to write encounters for.

Level 1 characters have the unnerving tendency to be killed by particularly motivated housecats. I've seen it happen.

Anyway. Level 6 is, to my mind, a good place to be when dealing with vampires as your superiors. Even the most Betsy basic vampire still outstrips you to a laughable degree, but you can allow yourself the illusion that, with enough support, you might be able to hurt one- and Spawn are well within your striking range.

If there's enough support for a lower leveled campaign, I'd consider it, but... Well, I would like people to wait a little bit before embarking on the dead train.

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 09, 2017, 05:23:29 pm

You might want to make a Discord for it though, since you're bringing in people from other places as well. Helps in coordinating character creation.

Will do!

Quote from: Harry Baldman on June 09, 2017, 05:23:29 pm

EDIT: Also, er, might want to be a bit careful with those links there Draig.

You know, my first reaction to that was to make sure they all worked, and then I realized what you were probably getting at.

Yeah... Fixed. Did not actually think about that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 09, 2017, 07:33:30 pm

Double posting to throw a link down.

Hub thread is up, come on down to talk characters, debate the details of vampire society and complain about the grammatical errors I didn't catch! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164451.msg7480295#msg7480295)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 09, 2017, 11:28:01 pm

Ok, I have been thumbing through the allowed source books, and I have a question on character choice.

I would like to use a psionic half-elf as the prototype, but the main sourcebooks only allude to this being possibly allowed. (Specifically, psionic elves, and that is in the psionics expanded handbook (which is refferenced by one of the books you put on the allowed list.)

The tentative backstory involves a fallen human noble house, that sought favor at the rise of necropolitan society, and ended up just being the breeding stock for a perversely minded vampire vintner. (as opposed to complete destruction.)   Given that vampire lords are old, and creatures of habit (and habitual taste), they have certain preferences, and views on what their blood of choice should taste like. In this case, the vintner has a thing for "noble poise", and "power."-- and has selectively bred his new chattels to retain those flavor profiles, even though their heritage has no real meaning in necropolitan society otherwise.  Emergence of untrained psionic capability is a result of this selective breeding, the partial elven heritage being another of the vintner's whimsical choices in flavor profile refinement. The character has managed to escape custody (the degree to which this was 'allowed' vs how much was actual accomplishment, is debatable)  Character has spent the past decade and a half doing this and that, trying to escape necropolitan society, and has become a jack of all trades (but master of none) type handiman, but who has natural abilities that are not trained. (favors development to soulknife, or wilder class, but has some profession and craft skills that puts him all over the place, since he has drifted from career to career to evade detection, on his journey to get out of this hellhole.) Main personality feature is self-reliance, alignment is neutral good. Favors intelligence and charisma as attributes, but has a slightly above normal dex.  Is naturally charismatic (infectiously so) due to his selective parentage. Despite this, is a loner, and is innately distrustful of everyone. (wants to avoid being collected for his blood debts for being eloped property. Cannot reasonably trust anyone.) This manifests in deeply inset paranoia held back behind a calm and charismatic veneer. Strongly avoids interractions with vampires and vampire spawn, because he has a very specific smell-- again, a result of his parentage. (Vampires are chummy, and know about each other's vices as a result of intrigue. He is CLEARLY the property of this specific vampire vintner, and reeks of it. Being near enough to be sniffed out means he will be discovered, and his escape plans will be busted. This is a potential plot hook to hold him into a contract of some sort, as an underhanded slight against his 'owner' by a rival lord, should he be discovered. To avoid such discovery, he sticks to mortal company only as much as is possible and has deeply held, but secret dislike for vampire upper crust and their decadence.)

I think there is enough interesting features there to warrant his existence, and am more than willing to accept all manner of handicaps, due to his abilities being purely genetic and totally untrained-- in fact, he has been training just about any other skill set BESIDES that ability, which is why he currently favors 'wilder' type psionic manifestation.

Would my race selection be acceptable with this kind of backstory, for this character archetype?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Draignean on June 10, 2017, 01:13:52 am

Quote from: wierd on June 09, 2017, 11:28:01 pm

...

Psionics, as a rule, can rise in any nearly any  species. Though the selective breeding is a nice touch.

Avoiding vampires, but getting by in life being a 6th level psionic doing odd jobs, is a very interesting kind of work. To gain experience and grow to your current stature you can't just be doing light work, and that means you're either working with Talents, Rathe who are in over their head, or the non-Vampire segments of the lower necrocracy. It's the kind of life that might lead to a rather spicy vintage.

How he's been going through the tasting, year by year, without being detected by a gourmand, is an interesting question as well.

I've got nothing against you filling him out. He seems interesting enough, and doesn't break anything terribly at this juncture.

However, you should probably post this in the Stillborn Gods thread in order to avoiding sidetracking NFO's thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 10, 2017, 01:20:13 am

I wanted affirmation on this chain of thought before investing large sums of mental energy. It is YOUR game, I want to do this right.  I will invest the energy later, then make a write up in the other thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 10, 2017, 11:17:14 am

We've recently discovered that Darth Vader in the recent Star Wars RPG is basically Cthulhu.  He is nigh unbeatable by the players and consumes 1d6 rebel scum per turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 11:20:36 am

As it should be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 10, 2017, 12:37:41 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on June 10, 2017, 11:17:14 am

We've recently discovered that Darth Vader in the recent Star Wars RPG is basically Cthulhu.  He is nigh unbeatable by the players and consumes 1d6 rebel scum per turn.

God forbid you find something worse

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on June 10, 2017, 01:07:45 pm

I am altering the results of the dice. Pray I do not alter them further.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 01:13:48 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on June 10, 2017, 11:17:14 am

We've recently discovered that Darth Vader in the recent Star Wars RPG is basically Cthulhu.  He is nigh unbeatable by the players and consumes 1d6 rebel scum per turn.

Kind of funny given that Darth Vader isn't even anywhere close to the top as far as powerful Jedi is concerned.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:26:50 pm

He's not exactly the weakest, either. In the timeframe when the Jedi are nearly extinct and the Sith rule the galaxy?

...yeah, he kinda is at the top. Better than any PC Force-user could be, anyway. The only canon Force-users that could be considered more powerful than him after the Clone Wars would be Yoda (not a PC) and the Emperor (also not a PC). Obi-wan would be an edge case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 01:31:00 pm

If there are 10 tiers of Jedi/Sith... Darth Vader would be a 7.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on June 10, 2017, 01:44:07 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:26:50 pm

He's not exactly the weakest, either. In the timeframe when the Jedi are nearly extinct and the Sith rule the galaxy?

...yeah, he kinda is at the top. Better than any PC Force-user could be, anyway. The only canon Force-users that could be considered more powerful than him after the Clone Wars would be Yoda (not a PC) and the Emperor (also not a PC). Obi-wan would be an edge case.

What if Obi-Wan has the high ground, though? He could beat Darth Vader no problem then, the only reason he loses in A New Hope is because they're fighting on a level surface.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 10, 2017, 01:48:57 pm

Obi did become More Powerful Than You Could Ever Imagine, so really I think he wins the power contest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:52:59 pm

He also dies in the process and sorta loses any ability to directly defeat Vader at that point, so...

Quote from: Tawa on June 10, 2017, 01:44:07 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:26:50 pm

He's not exactly the weakest, either. In the timeframe when the Jedi are nearly extinct and the Sith rule the galaxy?

...yeah, he kinda is at the top. Better than any PC Force-user could be, anyway. The only canon Force-users that could be considered more powerful than him after the Clone Wars would be Yoda (not a PC) and the Emperor (also not a PC). Obi-wan would be an edge case.

What if Obi-Wan has the high ground, though? He could beat Darth Vader no problem then, the only reason he loses in A New Hope is because they're fighting on a level surface.

He's also much older than Vader. Also keep in mind, Vader was not defeated by the high ground at any other point in the OT. When Luke got above him, he just threw his lightsaber instead of trying anything stupid. He learned his lesson.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 01:54:11 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:52:59 pm

He also dies in the process and sorta loses any ability to directly defeat Vader at that point, so...

Naw Canonically he was capable of killing Vader at that exact moment due to his ghost powers. He just saw that he didn't need to act... so he didn't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on June 10, 2017, 02:05:13 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:52:59 pm

Quote from: Tawa on June 10, 2017, 01:44:07 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:26:50 pm

He's not exactly the weakest, either. In the timeframe when the Jedi are nearly extinct and the Sith rule the galaxy?

...yeah, he kinda is at the top. Better than any PC Force-user could be, anyway. The only canon Force-users that could be considered more powerful than him after the Clone Wars would be Yoda (not a PC) and the Emperor (also not a PC). Obi-wan would be an edge case.

What if Obi-Wan has the high ground, though? He could beat Darth Vader no problem then, the only reason he loses in A New Hope is because they're fighting on a level surface.

He's also much older than Vader. Also keep in mind, Vader was not defeated by the high ground at any other point in the OT. When Luke got above him, he just threw his lightsaber instead of trying anything stupid. He learned his lesson.

Usage of the high ground is a skill available only to Obi-Wan. By having the high ground, his skill increases such that any fight with him (especially with people who were his brother) is over by the time he has the high ground.

Also I was joking

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 02:09:36 pm

Quote from: Tawa on June 10, 2017, 02:05:13 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:52:59 pm

Quote from: Tawa on June 10, 2017, 01:44:07 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 01:26:50 pm

He's not exactly the weakest, either. In the timeframe when the Jedi are nearly extinct and the Sith rule the galaxy?

...yeah, he kinda is at the top. Better than any PC Force-user could be, anyway. The only canon Force-users that could be considered more powerful than him after the Clone Wars would be Yoda (not a PC) and the Emperor (also not a PC). Obi-wan would be an edge case.

What if Obi-Wan has the high ground, though? He could beat Darth Vader no problem then, the only reason he loses in A New Hope is because they're fighting on a level surface.

He's also much older than Vader. Also keep in mind, Vader was not defeated by the high ground at any other point in the OT. When Luke got above him, he just threw his lightsaber instead of trying anything stupid. He learned his lesson.

Usage of the high ground is a skill available only to Obi-Wan. By having the high ground, his skill increases such that any fight with him (especially with people who were his brother) is over by the time he has the high ground.

Also I was joking

^{_{So was I}}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on June 10, 2017, 05:01:42 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 01:31:00 pm

If there are 10 tiers of Jedi/Sith... Darth Vader would be a 7.

At a time when most users of the Force are generally Force-sensitive at best, that is more than enough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 10, 2017, 06:54:54 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on June 10, 2017, 05:01:42 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 01:31:00 pm

If there are 10 tiers of Jedi/Sith... Darth Vader would be a 7.

At a time when most users of the Force are generally Force-sensitive at best, that is more than enough.

I think considering most Jedi in that era are dead, I think it makes him automatically a 9...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 08:17:52 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on June 10, 2017, 06:54:54 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on June 10, 2017, 05:01:42 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 01:31:00 pm

If there are 10 tiers of Jedi/Sith... Darth Vader would be a 7.

At a time when most users of the Force are generally Force-sensitive at best, that is more than enough.

I think considering most Jedi in that era are dead, I think it makes him automatically a 9...

I am rating Jedi of all time... Though after doing my calculation I think Darth Vader might be a 6, but I am keeping him a 7th since he might have improved SLIGHTLY.

Suffice it to say he is DEFINATELY not at the "You die!" levels of potency.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 10, 2017, 08:35:49 pm

I've heard of sith casually popping stars and such, so if you're rating on an all-time scale vader is a 1 or 2.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 09:01:23 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 10, 2017, 08:35:49 pm

I've heard of sith casually popping stars and such, so if you're rating on an all-time scale vader is a 1 or 2.

That is likely either myth or technology assisted.

Yet either way they are on the 10th tier which doesn't even include Yoda or the Emperor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 09:05:07 pm

Every instance I've ever heard of Force-users destroying stars or the like was done using the aid of ancient superweapons, or the efforts of many Force-users, or both.

In any case, none of these things are in play during Vader's time and are thus irrelevant to the game in question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 09:21:37 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 10, 2017, 09:05:07 pm

Every instance I've ever heard of Force-users destroying stars or the like was done using the aid of ancient superweapons, or the efforts of many Force-users, or both.

In any case, none of these things are in play during Vader's time and are thus irrelevant to the game in question.

Well there were the two Padawans who were inlove with a girl who used their force powers to destroy the entire planet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 10, 2017, 10:45:19 pm

To re-rail (somewhat, there are Star Wars PnP RPGs, so if someone wants to start talking levels and stats this conversation is good to go), how do people here generally handle dragons in their games?

Personally, my first reaction to any player who says they've killed a dragon (especially an ancient wyrm) is, "Not if your DM was playing it properly."

I use dragons as world-shaking events, entities that are so hideously powerful and intelligent that their very movements shape the flow of history.  Hell, I've got a setting where dragons are worshipped as gods, and as a result have actually become gods.  Tho' to be fair there are all of like fifteen dragons on that entire planet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 10:47:09 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 10, 2017, 10:45:19 pm

Personally, my first reaction to any player who says they've killed a dragon (especially an ancient wyrm) is, "Not if your DM was playing it properly."

It really depends on what dragon and how old they are.

If I remember correctly White Dragons, especially Young ones are often enslaved and used as mighty attackers.

Honestly though I prefer not to escalate dragons to prominence because they are rather poor antagonists in my mind. Isolated hoarders who prefer to be hands off. They are great bosses for dungeons, but not the bosses of the story.

Even Lord of the Rings seems to agree with this assessment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 10, 2017, 10:50:32 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 10, 2017, 10:47:09 pm

It really depends on what dragon and how old they are.

Pretty much yeah. A young to adolescent dragon is just a particularly smart flying snake. Older dragons are about the level of a low to mid level sorcerer with a lota meat. Ancient dragons. Well, they are strong and smart. But so are high level adventurers. It can happen.

Although yeah, how the setting plays with dragons also changes it a lot. If all the dragons in your setting are ALL ancient infinitely powered wryms, then of course killing one is somewhere between climax level and impossible. If not though, I don't see any reason for them being kill able by the right character.

I think both ways are perfectly fine to run dragons, and I've run both types of settings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 10, 2017, 10:56:03 pm

I'm only completely unwilling to accept the death of dragons that have reached truly ancient status, younger dragons tend to be more hot-headed and prone to acting rashly.  An ancient white dragon is still very intelligent and has centuries or even millennia of experience to draw upon (as far as 3rd ed is concerned).  A lot of my incredulity comes from the fact that many of these dragons are more intelligent naturally than it is possible for lesser beings to reach through magical means, and have outlived civilizations, not something a few (admittedly very powerful) adventures are going to actually defeat (barring extreme circumstances).

I like them as antagonists (and protagonists) because their motives are so utterly alien.  A dragon that has lived ten thousand years has experienced so much that only really esoteric things are likely to pique their interest.

I've actually got a campaign mostly mapped out that features a red dragon who has gone full-bore loony, and is trying to supplant the god of trickery as the personification of chaos.  His plan calls for (among other things): a gnomish circus, stealing an entire kingdom's left shoes, duping a party of adventurers into killing a younger dragon, and then getting himself killed and sealed into a gem on a magic sword.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 10, 2017, 11:06:30 pm

Hum, well, to me a great wrym is something that it'd take an extreme force to slay, but a high level adventuring party is exactly that extreme force. I know not everyone scales up the theme of the game along with the level of the party, which is perfectly fine. But for me when a party is at those high levels, they are the sort of world warping power that makes even dragons give pause. A great wrym is a unique and powerful being that could change the fate of the world. An adventuring party at that level is also a unique and powerful force that has almost certainly changed the fate of the world, possibly several times. To me if they wanta have at it, fair doos. We'll see who comes out on top, and it's not an obvious answer.

Edit: Another way of putting it, if I don't want the players to take on a cr:25 creature, I won't let them level up to cl:25, and if I do let them level up to cl:25, I'm fine with them killing a cr:25 creature, no matter what place that creature occupies in the setting.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 10, 2017, 11:17:49 pm

It certainly is something that comes down to style, my campaigns rarely reach levels beyond fifteen, so no party has ever acquired what I would consider world-warping power.  Not to mention I play hardball with my settings, and super-powerful things attract a LOT of attention from interested parties (so players at those incredible levels of power are likely to have many hard counters arrayed against them).  This is the main reason I asked the question, I've been running games for two decades and it helps to have outside perspective to keep things fresh.

I mentioned it previously, but one of my long-time friends has a saying, "Give the NPCs the intelligence they were born with."  And since I also ascribe to this theory, I tend to go to extremes when it comes to already powerful entities (like gods and dragons).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 12:27:48 am

If a dragon never wanted to be seen they would never be seen... They relish in their mortality and though they hoard treasure, they also want to protect it rather than just gather it.

This is why Dragons rarely use their own magic items and never to enhance themselves (beyond to fend of Alzheimer)

Even a Great Wrym isn't THAAAAT hard to defeat relative to a being of its strength and intelligence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 11, 2017, 03:32:31 am

My Pathfinder 10th level Conjuration Wizard was able to take on a CR 11 Juvenile Red Dragon and solo kill it in our weekly group. Basically, I used a bunch of buffs to negate the creature's damage output (Protection from Fire to block fire breath, Shield to block Magic Missiles, Mirror Image to block attacks, Freedom of Movement to block grapples, etc.), summoned three Babaus that maintained readied actions to counterspell any of the dragon's spellcasting with their Dispel Magic SLA, then I just used Calcific Touch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/calcific-touch/) with Piercing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/piercing-spell-metamagic/) metamagic and Dweomer's Essence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/dweomer-s-essence/) along with my racial +2 bonus to spell penetration against the dragon's SR. With +22 bonus to my spell penetration roll, I just had to hit it each round and not roll a 1 on the touch AC attack.

I petrified it in four rounds.

Honestly, this strategy works for pretty much any dragon type. If you have time to buff appropriately, teleport in and tag it a few times with Calcific Touch, the fight's pretty much over. Depending on the terrain, you might need an ally who can stand next to you and teleport you adjacent to the dragon if it tries to flee via flight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 11, 2017, 04:27:37 am

The DM is most definitely fucking with the adventure to make it harder than the books say.

I know it's taboo to peek into books, but things sure read a hell of a lot easier compared to what we had to go through.

There's no Symbols of Insanity traps, for starters. What traps that are there aren't on an endless trigger loop, going off every damn round either. Some of the monsters we fought aren't even mentioned in the books, either.

I think he just wants to kill players. He's sure chewed quite a few up already.

Seems to have re-written the story in ways, as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on June 11, 2017, 04:49:32 am

I agree with both sides. In my mind, as in how I'd prefer it, dragons both young and old should be mythical,  out-of-this-world-esque creature, more on par with titans or natural disasters than actual beasts. Stopping a dragon dragon should be like a hero wrestling a storm to calm, holding a quaking esrth down, or shoving an erupting volcano shut. Slaying a powerful dragon should be an epic achievement, in the proper meaning of the world, for mythical heroes that will be story told for generationg and the  kind of thing that thousands of years down the line still will be written eposes about.

But it is the nature of DnD that such things are not possible. Give the mythic being stats and it ceases to be larger than life. Give the Titan HP GO and it can ve brought down. Give the storm a grapple DC and it can be wrestled. Give the volcanic eruption a STR check and it can be held shut. It is not in the aim dnd as written to have dragons be what I want them to be. And that's just the way it is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 11, 2017, 04:53:17 am

Quote from: Jimmy on June 11, 2017, 03:32:31 am

snip

Yah.  You talked about that meta-powergamer strat before, and it turned into an argument that made me lock the thread.  If I had been your DM you and your whole party would have been in a world of hurt if not dead.  The dragon clearly did not act with the intelligence it was born with, and you exploited numbers to cheese the fight.  And that's fine, but it's really not how a dragon should ever be handled, even a juvenile.

If a dragon is giving you time to buff, let alone allowing you to leave it's lair so you can teleport into it at will, then it is being run incorrectly.  I'd appreciate it if we can avoid another argument over powergaming, so let's drop that example forever.

On the subject of stat-blocks and codifying magical things into easy to understand data, I often wonder if giving ancient dragons and gods defined stats was a bad idea on TSR's part.  Any opinions?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 05:06:43 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 11, 2017, 04:27:37 am

There's no Symbols of Insanity traps, for starters. What traps that are there aren't on an endless trigger loop, going off every damn round either. Some of the monsters we fought aren't even mentioned in the books, either.

I think he just wants to kill players. He's sure chewed quite a few up already.

There can 100% be a Symbol of Insanity trap! There is nothing that suggests there cannot be.

Most symbol traps have a duration listed in minutes which means that until they deactivate they hit every single round.

Quote

On the subject of stat-blocks and codifying magical things into easy to understand data, I often wonder if giving ancient dragons and gods defined stats was a bad idea on TSR's part.  Any opinions?

To me it is necessary. If you aren't meant to interact with them then maybe don't add them to your game. Not stating gods is at least viable given that they are distant whispers who do not interact directly to the game.

Yet it reminds me of those games where they create "Creator Pet" people who basically just kill the players.

Not to mention "Ancient Dragons" aren't anywhere close to the top of castle. This feels very strongly of a fanbase push "Dragons are cool, so they should be top tier" and is the same logic behind 3.5 intentionally mislabling their CR.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 11, 2017, 05:07:59 am

It's a no-win situation NFO.

If they had not done so, there would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth that players could not challenge the gods, and then punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

Since they DID do so, there are now people lamenting that you can punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 05:10:53 am

Quote from: wierd on June 11, 2017, 05:07:59 am

It's a no-win situation NFO.

If they had not done so, there would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth that players could not challenge the gods, and then punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

Since they DID do so, there are not people lamenting that you can punch them in the face enough times to cast them down.

You say no-win but given the people who say "Players could not challenge the gods" never let their games EVER get that far... They are entirely unaffected by this except mentally :P

The issue is when it works against the narrative, when the mechanics can't keep up, or when it is completely pointless.

Ancient Dragons are within the functional mechanics... While Gods (outside 4e... SORT OF!) are usually where the game starts melting into a pile of goo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 11, 2017, 05:14:00 am

Quote from: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 05:06:43 am

There can 100% be a Symbol of Insanity trap! There is nothing that suggests there cannot be.

Most symbol traps have a duration listed in minutes which means that until they deactivate they hit every single round.

I didn't mean that Symbol of Insanity doesn't exist, I said there isn't a single one in the book. The trap was for a single-use Fireball, not even max caster level, not a Permanency-d Symbol of Insanity, DC 26 Will against a bunch of level 6 characters.

Even if a Symbol is made permanent, they still have a cooldown period. This one apparently did not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 11, 2017, 05:14:10 am

Untrue. Gods could very well be "real" (be able to grant wishes, alter chance, etc.), but be completely incorporeal, and so any conception of hit points is absurdity itself.

Compare concepts:

God OF destiny.

Destiny itself. (Which is conscious, and can be bargained with, but is still as ephemeral as destiny always is.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 11, 2017, 05:16:55 am

You can give something stats and still have it be meaningfully powerful in a way that players can't really deal with.
"Devours 1d6 investigators per turn."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 05:17:26 am

Well often gods are both a manifestation AND the concept itself.

Yog-Slothoth has a "beatable" (arguably) form... But it is also time and space. (The haunting part is that in many ways... if you beat him... He LET YOU! you matter that little)

In Scion there are SEVERAL manifestations of Destiny... don't mess with them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 11, 2017, 05:22:35 am

I know it does not belong here-- but I prefer the "WTF" type explanation for corprealized manifestations seen in things like StarControl II for the Orz, where they giggle uncontrollably about how silly we "bubbles" are about Orz being "bubbles", and are instead all Orz' many "Fingers".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 11, 2017, 08:06:14 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 11, 2017, 04:53:17 am

On the subject of stat-blocks and codifying magical things into easy to understand data, I often wonder if giving ancient dragons and gods defined stats was a bad idea on TSR's part.  Any opinions?

I think this comes down to style once again. I really see three choices here. You either don't give them stat blocks, and they stay as vaguely defined set pieces of awesome might and power. Which is perfectly fine. You give them stat blocks, and they become just another monster to murder hobo your way though on the way to rescue johnny from the well. Which is perfectly fine. Or you give them stat blocks and they are still pieces of awesome might and power, but when a player gets to that point they are also a piece of awesome might and power, able to challenge such things. Which is perfectly fine.

*cough* Also not attached to anything in particular, ability damage is something that one can become immune to from low to mid tier magic that even relatively young dragons should be able to purchase if not cast themselves, Last time I ran a dragon against a group in a game they were level 5 and it was immune to such things.*cough*

Quote from: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 05:17:26 am

Well often gods are both a manifestation AND the concept itself.

I think this is how D&D handles it as well a lot of the time, there being these avatars of gods that are sorta the gods but sorta not them, often in the mid 20 to mid 30 cr. Presumably you can kill these for whatever reason is needed, but not actually kill the god itself? It's vague a bit though. Potentally in these settings the gods might be just another monster to slay that are a step up from avatars, say, in the mid 40s to mid 50s.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 11, 2017, 09:01:31 am

Yep, if the creature has a stat block, it's designed so that a DM can put it in front of the players and have them have a chance of defeating it.

Honestly, saying dragons are super special snowflakes makes about as much sense as sparkly emo vampires. Killing dragons is entrenched in mythical lore. It's what noble knights do when they're rescuing princesses from towers of improbable provenance. If you're running Dungeons and Dragons without the opportunity to go kill a dragon, you're literally missing 50% of the title.

Are dragons tough? Sure. But by 10th level, so are players. An average Fighter could kill every person in a small town single-handedly without breaking a sweat. An average Rogue could sneak into the king's throne room and steal the crown off his head. An average Cleric can literally raise the dead back to life and pop over to heaven to have a direct chat with his deity.

And a Wizard?

They upholster their tower's lounge suite in dragon leather.

The game's for the players, not the DM. It's a DM's job to tell a good story and throw tough but fair fights at the players to overcome. The players are supposed to be the stars of the show, and if their idea of a good time is slaying dragons, let 'em do it, I say. If they're clever they'll come up with a valid strategy that works for them. Of course, that might annoy greater, more powerful dragons in turn, so they'd best be ready to face the consequences of their actions too. But it comes back to the old adage, If It Has Stats, We Can Kill It.

It's why Paizo don't publish stats for their major deities. Cthulhu has stats, demon lords and so forth, but good luck finding a stat block for someone like Asmodeus. If they did, it'd be open season on the Dark Prince. If you want an unkillable dragon, I'd suggest Tiamat. Or possibly Dahak.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 11, 2017, 11:12:11 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 10, 2017, 10:45:19 pm

To re-rail (somewhat, there are Star Wars PnP RPGs, so if someone wants to start talking levels and stats this conversation is good to go), how do people here generally handle dragons in their games?

Personally, my first reaction to any player who says they've killed a dragon (especially an ancient wyrm) is, "Not if your DM was playing it properly."

I use dragons as world-shaking events, entities that are so hideously powerful and intelligent that their very movements shape the flow of history.  Hell, I've got a setting where dragons are worshipped as gods, and as a result have actually become gods.  Tho' to be fair there are all of like fifteen dragons on that entire planet.

I use them as a boss fight. My players are cunning, so even if I drop a CR 9 dragon on a party of level 3's, they'll find a way to kill it (and they did), so I can't use them as powerful entities as you put them.

However, that's when they're alone. There are several events in the world I made where the dragons attacked everyone and if it wasn't for every race (monsterous included) working together, they would've lost utterly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 11, 2017, 02:34:19 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on June 11, 2017, 09:01:31 am

The game's for the players, not the DM. It's a DM's job to tell a good story and throw tough but fair fights at the players to overcome. The players are supposed to be the stars of the show...

This is only half accurate.  You're right about the DM's role, but wrong about the game being exclusively about the players.  If the DM isn't having fun also, then why the hell are they even running it.  DMing isn't supposed to be a chore, it's supposed to be part of a give-and take narrative, where everyone contributes to the game and (hopefully) everyone is happy with the experience.  Also, I'm not suggesting that dragons are a special snowflake, I'm suggesting that player characters are not.

As a very long time DM, I would tell any player who expected me to kotow to their whims to leave my table immediately, because that attitude is not acceptable to me.

On the subject of lose-lose:  I'm not sure it really is tho'.  If a player or group is dedicated to the concept of removing a god (or other insanely powerful entity) I don't think it should come down to a stat based battle, as something that actually deserves the title of "god" would in any reasonable situation simply obliterate any level of mortals.  I'm not one-hundred percent sure how I would handle it, but letting them overpower something like that through main force just seems to cheapen the very concept.  I would definitely try to find an answer that felt narratively acceptable, but I can't condone "I hit it with my axe", when it comes to something that is supposed to be representation of a fundamental component of the universe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 04:07:43 pm

Quote

I'm suggesting that player characters are not.

Well as far as dungeons and dragons is concerned they are one of the few people whose souls have the power to defy and shape fate itself. They grow in power quickly and frighteningly. As well in their hands lies the fate of nations.

As far as dnd is concerned the players are special.

Now in Fantasy Warhammer (AKA: We hate the player RPG) or in Call of Cthulhu you do play an ordinary person.

In Shadowrun you play "The Best of the Best". In Scion you play a child of destiny.

Quote

but letting them overpower something like that through main force just seems to cheapen the very concept.

Why are you using the Christian god in dungeons and dragons?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 11, 2017, 04:15:30 pm

Depends on how you play the game. You can certainly greatly greatly slow down the exp gain rate and disconnect it from the idea of overcoming challenges to render pcs a bit more "normal". As is though, in most games I've played the players have advanced in power at a extremely fast rate, compared to the average person. Basically super saiyans. They fight a bit and then evolve way past any point of sanity.

I think that certainly a high level character is, no matter how they got there, a special snowflake, just like any other creature of that power level (or the setting is so high powered that dragons getting ganked shouldn't even be that rare of a thing.)

On fighting gods, I think that's SUPER heavily dependent on setting. Sometimes gods are concepts of the universe and probably unkillable. But in a lot of real life myths gods are very human, and very killable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 11, 2017, 05:55:58 pm

Neo, can you update the original post with your new taboo topic? I kind of lose track of all the things you've censored and don't want to inadvertently cast animate dead.

I agree with Criptfeind about gods being possible to kill. I like some of the older pantheons for examples, like greek gods and demigods that were constantly slaughtering each other. By the time players reach a level that lets them challenge CR 20+ encounters, they're like unto gods themselves, able to create their own planes of existence with a thought, stand at the gates of the abyss and hold back the demon hordes for eternity, and so forth.

That's not to say the encounter should be a twenty by twenty foot featureless room with a god and a poorly locked treasure chest inside. A good DM should make a story out of it that's interesting for all involved. Asmodeus can only be killed at the stroke of midnight on the last night of winter by dropping a magical bowling ball on his left big toe to prevent his immediate return to life.

Personally, I think if a DM is only having fun at the expense of his players, he's not really doing it right. I hate power-trip DMs who get their jollies by giving players impossible encounters and expect them to roll over and beg for mercy, debase themselves or otherwise feed the DMs ego. It's the same concept that makes DM NPC Mary-Sue characters so annoying. At the risk of running afoul of the alignment censorship, a DM should be True Neutral, not Lawful Evil.

That's not to say you can't have a good time at their expense. For example, I just had one of my players retire their Cleric in my Pathfinder game after 53 weeks of play. We've got a new player at the table now, running an Aasimar Cleric of Nethys, the god of knowledge and magic. She also has a background as a librarian. So in order to get her into the game, she got a quest hook from her patron and local lord to go seek out a set of very rare tomes for his private collection.

I'm grinning like a Cheshire Cat as I reveal this quest hook, and every other player groans and starts shaking their heads. This is because these particular tomes are being hunted by an NPC named Tylsa Kroft, a scholar and tomb raider who's a wanted criminal for violating crown law and trespassing into restricted areas in her quest for these tomes. About six months ago, the group encountered this NPC and rescued her on the road. She convinced the group to help her in finding the first of these tomes from a necromancer's tower right up until the group smelled a rat and realised it would violate the law to enter this area. They dumped her and thought that was the end of it.

I far prefer these sorts of problems for players to face. The NPC herself is easily within the CR of the group. Frankly, the Cleric could likely kill her with one hit. But it's the messy problem of whether to aid this known criminal that is the real challenge, and the fact it evokes such a strong response from the players even six months later means I've done my job well as a DM. It's the little touches that make the NPC so memorable, like the fact that every time they try to use Sending to get a response, she always wastes the 25 word limit on babble before answering their actual question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 11, 2017, 06:07:01 pm

Jimmy, I'm not censoring anyone, and I haven't banned any topics accept alignment and racism (and the stupid steel debate, because it has nothing to do with D&D and has no place here), so I don't appreciate the attitude.  If you don't like the way I'm curating this thread then by all means start your own or start posting in the tabletop games thread, I put these rules in place for a reason.  If people are finding them stifling I am completely open to discussion of that topic via PM, because it doesn't belong in the thread.

I don't and have not ever advocated the DM having fun "at the expense of his players", I asserted that if it isn't a two-way street then someone is being an asshole and should stop.  Players or DM, doesn't matter which.  You're a power gamer who likes to cheese encounters like you're playing Pokémon, that is a valid way to play and while I don't like it or agree with it I'm not starting an argument over it.  I'm vastly more interested in evolutionary stories and the player's place in the world they inhabit, and that is an equally valid way to play the game and you have no place to say that I am wrong.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 11, 2017, 06:15:04 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 11, 2017, 06:07:01 pm

I haven't banned any topics accept alignment and racism (and the stupid steel debate, because it has nothing to do with D&D and has no place here)

To be perfectly fair in just the last page you did very strongly tell him to never talk about the time he killed that dragon ever again. That's sorta banning a topic. And you're both being a little snippy to each other.

On the other stuff, you guys seem to be talking past each other a little bit. Jimmy never said that the game should just be a spreadsheet of munchkins, you never said that the game should just be the DM wanking off into the face of his players. Just... Chillax a bit, I don't think either one of you really disagree a huge amount, you just each have a way of talking about this stuff that stresses the emphasis on different parts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 11, 2017, 06:23:58 pm

Yeah, it's getting slightly heated, I'll take a break for a day or so.

Jimmy, I hold you no ill will, I just don't agree with you.  I hope you won't take any of this too personally, the comment about your dragon kill was simply because there was a user banned over that argument (and I am not blaming anyone but him, he was the one who stepped way out of line in both of the topics he was arguing with people in).

I don't want people to be banned over this thread, so I'm just trying to stay ahead of potential explosions.

Edit: I mean that I'll try to avoid posting here for a day or so, I'll still be around to check in, but I won't participate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 11, 2017, 08:25:50 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on June 11, 2017, 04:07:43 pm

Quote

I'm suggesting that player characters are not.

Well as far as dungeons and dragons is concerned they are one of the few people whose souls have the power to defy and shape fate itself. They grow in power quickly and frighteningly. As well in their hands lies the fate of nations.

As far as dnd is concerned the players are special.

Now in Fantasy Warhammer (AKA: We hate the player RPG) or in Call of Cthulhu you do play an ordinary person.

In Shadowrun you play "The Best of the Best". In Scion you play a child of destiny.

My buddy wants to do a shadowrun game where we're just some thugs pulled off the street and grouped up under a crime lord who's ultimate goal is to gain enough resources by doing a bunch of other jobs to, eventually, rob one of the corporation buildings. He's heavily inspired by payday and Boondock Saints for what he's told me.

Especially with, for the most part, our Mr Johnson and our plan guy is essentially Bain (if he had the gall to watch videos and porn while on a job)

But he wanted us to really feel the progression, so I might tell him to lower the starting abilities

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 11, 2017, 09:03:20 pm

Nah, it's cool Null. I just don't wanna get afoul of the topic rules if there's gonna be a new thing we're not allowed to discuss like the alignment system in D&D, the actual quality of historical Japanese steel versus its near mythical representation in fiction, or superiority of different versions of D&D. Apologies if I gave any offence, none is intended.

We're still cool to discuss dragon slaying strategies?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 11, 2017, 09:44:26 pm

Yes, by all means, I WANT discussions of fun topics like that.

I'd just like to steer clear of the minefields as much as possible.

I'll still sit out for tomorrow, as I need to step back a bit, I'm a hothead and I know it, so I'll try to keep myself from going off the deep end.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 11, 2017, 11:58:38 pm

No worries then. To address the topic you'd raised that a dragon wouldn't let someone leave their cave, I'd actually thought of that beforehand.

I brought with me a tribute of gold in the original scenario, an offering of peace to allow me to address the great and mighty dragon and offer my respects. Thanks to that I gained a Bluff bonus of +10 (possess convincing proof) and +5 (target wants to believe you) to my Bluff to tell the dragon I intended to go and organise a regular tribute to it from the nearby city.

I was also exceedingly careful in my wording to avoid telling an outright lie, and luckily my DM took my character's roleplaying at face value and didn't call for opposed rolls. Still, I would have had an good chance to succeed, and even if not, I had a Dimension Door in my pocket just in case things went south during the initial meeting.

It's also good strategy when going dragonslaying to try the diplomatic route first. I got the distinct impression from the DM's roleplaying of the creature that he was a simple brute and thug, which to my mind indicated it was fair game to take a crack at its horde. If it had been a brass dragon with a pigment problem I'd have approached the encounter in a much different manner.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 12, 2017, 04:56:47 pm

I played a Kineticist and an Artificer the few times I fought a dragon (the former technically not counting because it was a dracolich). The artificer pretty much had no real say in things despite having solid charisma compared to the bard (mind you also, everyone at the table hated me), so it was literally me healing everyone and electrocuting the dragon every now and then

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 14, 2017, 07:19:10 am

So dnd wise what is the true difference between the Divine and Arcane source?

Now I know they are directly connected and that the fabric of reality SEEMS to be an odd mixture of both. Not to mention that one can dabble somewhat with divine power without directly dealing with the divine (albeit severely stunted as a result).

4e actually split Nature and Divine as separate sources, but for now lets go with the idea that Nature and Divine power source are the same.

Now I know Divine comes from the gods, but that is for Clerics, Paladins, and technically Favored Souls. Yet that is only true in the sense that "Money comes from your boss". Not to mention there are ways around this requirement AND both "positive" and "Negative" energy are inherently divine.

---

All the while Arcane magic controls the potentiality of matter, space, and time.

Perhaps Divine deals with positive and negative energy? (Life, creation, death, and entropy?)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 14, 2017, 07:59:12 am

It varies a bit with various settings, but no, it's basically divine is granted by gods and arcane isn't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on June 14, 2017, 08:16:16 am

Divine magic is channelled from the gods through you. You ask nicely, they allow you some of their power, you fire the spell. It roughly the same relationship as with Warlocks and their masters. Divine Souls differ from Clerics and Paladins through not needing to ask nicely first, they innately have the ability/allowance to use their deity's power.

Arcane magic involves the manipulation of magic energy itself. I'm not entirely sure how it is in generic DnD or other settings, but in Forgotten Realms this is done through manipulating the Weave, which is a metaphysical construct created by Mystra, goddess of magic. This differs from divine magic in that if casting a spell is like travelling to a destination, then divine magic is getting a ride or a taxi there, while arcane magic is like looking at a map and driving there yourself.

Negative and Positive Energy are not inherently divine. There's nothing singularly arcane about matter, space, and time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 14, 2017, 08:35:47 am

Yeah, as above.

Wisdom based casters are typically drawing on another power, be it clerics from a god or god-like being, or druids from the primal forces of nature and creation. Their worship and faith to these higher powers allows them to access their spells. It's also why these classes might need to atone if they perform acts contrary to their alignment, since they're obtaining power through service to something else.

Charisma based casters are usually drawing on their own intangible connection to something larger in order to cast their spells. For classes like an oracle, it's pretty much a short-circuit that ended up tapping them into a deity's power source, with a few side effects as a result. Their magic's still divine since it's coming from another individual with deity-level power, but their way of accessing it isn't through worship but rather opening their connection a bit wider to release that power.

A sorcerer is instead using their own direct connection to raw magic itself, typically through their blood. No higher power, just them being so gosh darn pretty the universe sits down, shuts up and lets them do whatever the hell they want for a minute. It's their own power they're using, not some other creature's power.

Intelligence based casters like wizards are the lawyers, the rules munchkins, the nerds that pick apart every loop-hole in reality and study their ass off to memorise the exact combination of finger-wiggles and miscellaneous crap that lets them break reality for awhile. They're just exploiting the bad code of reality, not drawing their power from any source in particular.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Arx on June 14, 2017, 09:08:38 am

That description of wizards makes them sound like the classic competitive game tryhard.

 "Instantly immolating my enemies isn't a bug! It's tech, and it takes a very precise input sequence and timing. Instead of whining about it in the town square, why don't you get good and learn to counterspell? I bet you're a fighter, ugh."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 14, 2017, 09:37:06 am

this reminds me violently of melee fanboys and i'm upset

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on June 14, 2017, 10:26:46 am

Quote from: Arx on June 14, 2017, 09:08:38 am

That description of wizards makes them sound like the classic competitive game tryhard.

 "Instantly immolating my enemies isn't a bug! It's tech, and it takes a very precise input sequence and timing. Instead of whining about it in the town square, why don't you get good and learn to counterspell? I bet you're a fighter, ugh."

"Ugh, noob paladin."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Tawa on June 14, 2017, 11:46:52 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 14, 2017, 09:37:06 am

this reminds me violently of melee fanboys and i'm upset

levels don exits

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 15, 2017, 11:42:44 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 14, 2017, 08:16:16 am

Divine magic is channelled from the gods through you. You ask nicely, they allow you some of their power, you fire the spell. It roughly the same relationship as with Warlocks and their masters. Divine Souls differ from Clerics and Paladins through not needing to ask nicely first, they innately have the ability/allowance to use their deity's power.

Arcane magic involves the manipulation of magic energy itself. I'm not entirely sure how it is in generic DnD or other settings, but in Forgotten Realms this is done through manipulating the Weave, which is a metaphysical construct created by Mystra, goddess of magic. This differs from divine magic in that if casting a spell is like travelling to a destination, then divine magic is getting a ride or a taxi there, while arcane magic is like looking at a map and driving there yourself.

Negative and Positive Energy are not inherently divine. There's nothing singularly arcane about matter, space, and time.

Divinity is just the catalyst it still exists outside the gods themselves (essence of why the Arcanist exists... Err... The class that has both arcane and divine but no patron), and even then the gods themselves can use Divine magic. So what IS it?

As well Druids can cast Divine spells without any god being involved (they CAN worship nature gods, but it isn't a requirement for their magic to function... and to my knowledge it isn't because they secretly grant them to all druids)

As for Forgotten Realm... Mystra is a liar! and created the Weave so no one would do real magic.

As for Negative and Positive energy not being inherently divine, if that is true... Then they interact directly with the divine (Hence why the Book of Exalted Deeds is affected by Negative Energy)

What I mean is... Magic is both Arcane and Divine, together they are the true essence of magic and could even be considered the essence of the universe.

What does Divine bring to this duality? It is more than just flavor that Divine magic can do things that Arcane magic cannot (and vise versa... outside reality warping and pseudospells). I mean is Arcane the natural/supernatural and Divine is the Preternatural? (Yes I know those are synonyms)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Gentlefish on June 16, 2017, 12:51:22 am

If we accept "The Gods" and "The Universe" as two wholly different things, having the divide between Divine and Arcane magic makes a whole lot of sense. Especially seeing as divine bonus spells usually give access to some arcane magics; that could be seen as the gods' inherent connections with those aspects of reality, where arcane magic users simply manipulate reality. They can't do some of the really fancy stuff that clerics can, like actually ressurect people, but they're able to warp reality to their will such that they can make their own pocket dimensions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 16, 2017, 01:16:23 am

My understanding is that "divine" simply means channeling an external power.  You're absolutely right, no gods need be involved (I'm defaulting to 3.5e as usual):

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

A Chaotic Good cleric can choose to worship, say, travel and good.  Devotion and insight (WIS) somehow lets them channel the power of these raw concepts into spells.  I imagine it's like an 80's cartoon hero learning the true meaning of friendship, and believing in it so strongly that the evil villain's fireball/hypnosis/whatever just fails.

Many cleric domains have actual planes, so the power probably comes from there. 
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm
The Good domain is all about protection and smiting evil, which makes sense if it's channeled from the good-aligned afterlives.
The Healing domain spells are entirely Conjuration(Healing), even regeneration, conjuring/channeling the Positive Energy Plane.  Reminder that Healing is *not* Good- The Positive Energy Plane is even more lethal than the negative.  It heals you, then keeps going, quickly giving you (to quote Wikipedia) "explosive cancer of the everything".  Also all your equipment explodes due to being unliving?  Remember kids:  Heal responsibly.

Domains like travel and war are weirder since they don't really have planes.  I guess they're just strong enough themes in the fabric of existence to resonate and react to worship.

Druids specifically channel nature, which is why they must be at least partially neutral.  Nature is neutral, even the direst wolf is Always Neutral.  It's not malicious, the pack needs to eat.
Personally I like the idea that druids may be especially antagonistic towards forces from alignment planes.  I think that's just headcanon though.  They're clearly cool with the *elemental* planes, which many of their spells conjure from.  Also they can literally turn into elementals.

The Paladin page of the SRD doesn't even mention "god", "deity", or "worship".  So they're presumably just as free to worship Lawful-Goodness.  I'm not sure if their power comes from Celestia, or perhaps just the (incredibly inaccurate) depiction of chivalry they follow.  The idea of helping the weak and fighting with honor is a resonant one.

Ranger magic sucks and they ought to be purely extraordinary instead of supernatural, but I guess they channel nature too.  And sometimes speceism.

Oh, about deities though.  Clearly you *can* channel divine magic through a deity.  If they get displeased, they can cut you off.  Pure-RAW this is mostly a disadvantage, but there are notable benefits to being part of an established religion.  Some spells involve speaking to your deity to get advice, for example, and you may get support from fellow worshipers.

On the other hand, neutral atheist clerics can cast literally any divine spell.  Having any alignment bars you from the opposite alignment spells.  You also get to choose whether to spontaneously conjure positive energy or negative energy (though the choice is permanent.  And channeling negative energy usually sucks.)
Evil clerics can still prepare healing spells, of course, because again... healing spells lack the Good descriptor, and negative energy spells are no more Evil than a broadsword.


I would have talked about arcane magic but I'm not sure what it is, really.  Charisma-based arcane magic seems to be channeling dragon/fey blood, or simply pure universe-rending smugness.  I suppose Intelligence casting is taking advantage of glitches and obscure (literally arcane) quirks of reality to MacGuyver fireballs out of batshit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 16, 2017, 01:34:32 am

The stat you use to roll is determined HOW you cast something. Not its source (Well directly)

Favored Souls and Sorcerers use Charisma because the power is their own. It is an extension of their will and personality... It is an expression.
Wizards and Bards use Intelligence because their power is achieved through academic formula.
Clerics and Druids use Wisdom because their power is granted through communion, channeling, and understanding of forces outside of themselves.

Constitution is sometimes used, but for those abilities the magic is very physical.

In theory if a Divine Caster had to write down thick formulas based on various combinations of prayers, that would use Intelligence. (I know there is one, MAYBE two)

And there are Arcane casters who use Wisdom as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 16, 2017, 10:42:50 am

All these questions about the nature of magic and the universe in D&D are ultimately going to boil down to "it depends on the setting." There's not actually an answer to them for D&D in general since literally every game of D&D takes place in a different universe where the answer might be different.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 16, 2017, 11:31:25 am

Quote from: Neonivek on June 16, 2017, 01:34:32 am

Wizards and Bards use Intelligence because their power is achieved through academic formula.

what

Edit:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/JJljquj.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: highmax28 on June 16, 2017, 11:52:19 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on June 16, 2017, 10:42:50 am

All these questions about the nature of magic and the universe in D&D are ultimately going to boil down to "it depends on the setting." There's not actually an answer to them for D&D in general since literally every game of D&D takes place in a different universe where the answer might be different.

Pretty much.

Like my setting, arcane magic comes from a power beyond the planes of existence. Wizards learn to project that manifests in their desired effect. Sorcerers have their bloodline of course, but that bloodline, but most Wild Magic sorcerers had theirs manifest (in my setting at least) by having some of that arcane power leak into them by either their mother or father doing something that would bring them close to one of the places in the world where that magic is strongest (kind of like a leyline but I'm not gonna go more into that because I have people in here who play in my settings) or their parents or they themselves experienced some sort of natural magical phenomenon that can be as minute as a slight gust of strange smelling wind to the earth rupturing in a burst of pink fire (sort of like an internal spell-scar).

Divine magic comes from the gods in my setting, obviously. I also split divine and nature magic, so Druids, Rangers and Paladins of the Ancients (and in previous editions, anything that uses nature as a power source) pull their magic from the world itself and its magical nature by communing with it and the world responds with the desired magical effect. Note that if the world is dying, this magic tends to go to the shitter.

I also included demonic and shadow magic in my setting that players don't have access to. Demonic is obvious as it functions like divine magic but with demons, and it mostly works exactly how Warlocks use their magic (I say players don't have access to it, but I've yet to have a demonic worshipping warlock).

Shadow magic is something that Sirus is somewhat familiar with in my 4e game. It was essentially a deeper school of necromancy that ended up manifesting into a very strange magic source when it was discovered. It relies on taking from other sources of magic. And I don't mean it ignores spells by eating them. How it functioned was it grew stronger by feeding off of the world's magic and tended to effect the world around it when it was used (the sun would tend to be blotted out by darkness and light sources burned one level dimmer than usual, and it even manifests sometimes into weather effects if it corrupts an area for long enough) and it gets even stronger by absorbing the souls of living beings. When this happens, it also tends to leave an imprint of itself in those affected (Sirus saw this happen with a caster of this magic pulling the magic out of them and creating clones of them). Its parasitic in nature, and it is the only source of magic powerful enough, if channeled properly, to corrupt or destroy places of the world where magic flows from. Again, can't say much more because players of my settings are in this thread

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 17, 2017, 03:42:50 am

On the topic of how gods get to use divine power since they're the actual power themselves, I've always thought of it as a positive feedback loop. Worshipping a god gives them power, souls of mortal faithful give them even more power.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 17, 2017, 04:03:48 am

Quote from: Jimmy on June 17, 2017, 03:42:50 am

On the topic of how gods get to use divine power since they're the actual power themselves, I've always thought of it as a positive feedback loop. Worshipping a god gives them power, souls of mortal faithful give them even more power.

The actual relationship between a worshipper and a god is interestingly debatable, it could even be argued how much a god REALLY bestows upon their follows and how much is just how much power they let the follower channel.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 05:36:50 pm

DM hates us confirmed.

What was supposed to be a bunch of Rogues became Horselord Cavaliers that could crit on a 12.

We also ran into a dozen CR 8s with mythic tiers. They are not in the book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Teneb on June 17, 2017, 05:54:03 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 05:36:50 pm

DM hates us confirmed.

What was supposed to be a bunch of Rogues became Horselord Cavaliers that could crit on a 12.

We also ran into a dozen CR 8s with mythic tiers. They are not in the book.

Why not call your DM on it?

Also, finished my sort-of-mini campaign of Eclipse Phase. It was mostly intended as a learning experience, but it worked out well enough. Players said they want to play more, but we all agreed on going with a theme and them rolling new characters (that they decided was going to be basically a pirate crew). One player in particular declared that after playing EP, he'd rather not play D&D ever again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 06:00:50 pm

Don't want to cause a scene.

Others aren't enjoying this either. I don't know if they know the DM is messing with the books. He says everything is by the book when asked.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Kadzar on June 17, 2017, 08:47:34 pm

So I've been DMing 5e for the past month or so. Last Wednesday, I needed an encounter on the quick, so I took one of my pregenerated encounters, which was originally rated Easy for 7 6th level PCs, and added some more enemies to make it more challenging. I somewhat overdid it, though, since we were down to 5 players that night, so my adjustment turned it into a Deadly encounter.

They were fine though (only the Wizard got dropped to zero, and he survived), since they had only had a single Easy encounter so far that day, and they have a generous amount of magic items. Also, the Spies (the statblock I was using), rolled a lot of ones especially when trying to jump down from or climb up the boxes (this took place in a warehouse), so they didn't perform as well as they could. Also, a Stealth roll failure meant they didn't get to apply Sneak Attack damage to the one ballista shot they got off. (Protip: if a sketchy dude is offering to sell you a ballista and he has it under a cloth, it's probably not the best idea to stand in front of its firing arc.)

Moral of the story: At 6th level, an increase from 8 to 12 CR 1 enemies is still significant.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 17, 2017, 09:48:21 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 06:00:50 pm

Don't want to cause a scene.

Others aren't enjoying this either. I don't know if they know the DM is messing with the books. He says everything is by the book when asked.

Ask him which book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 17, 2017, 09:53:30 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 17, 2017, 09:48:21 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 06:00:50 pm

Don't want to cause a scene.

Others aren't enjoying this either. I don't know if they know the DM is messing with the books. He says everything is by the book when asked.

Ask him which book.

There is a good chance he was searching the online SRD and got third party junk...

The Online SRD REALLY REALLY REALLY needs to do a waaaaaaaay better job getting rid of third party junk so it doesn't show in the first party sections.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 10:01:00 pm

The Adventure Path books we are using. Encounters are different. The story is different slightly. 3rd party monsters and classes, plus encounters way above our characters' pay grade.

Overall, we aren't having fun. He's blaming the adventure itself, but I have the books as well, so I know it isn't true.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 17, 2017, 10:28:27 pm

Blaming the encounter isn't really a good excuse anyway, even if it was true. He's the GM and is in charge of everything. If there's an issue (which, given that he's blaming something, seems to be something that even he admits is true) it's within his power to change despite the book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 10:49:47 pm

The problem is him, not the books. I've read the books. He's making them much harder, while claiming that the books are the problem when we complain that the encounters are too much.

He's also changing the story in ways, though I can't tell why yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 17, 2017, 11:05:44 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 10:49:47 pm

The problem is him, not the books. I've read the books. He's making them much harder, while claiming that the books are the problem when we complain that the encounters are too much.

He's also changing the story in ways, though I can't tell why yet.

Well changing the story and encounters isn't a BAD idea... Heck changing the story can be an excellent idea especially for players who know how it goes (and some adventure paths give you a few ways you can change things around a bit or even a lot).

However, I have no idea what the heck this DM is doing. Perhaps he thinks his job is to be against the players?

I know I once got really unfair on my players, but that was because they were sailing through all my encounters that I got upset that nothing I did had any impact... But that is a slip up and was only for one session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 11:23:43 pm

I've been mentioning things for a while now, with the most recent thing he's done being that he replaced Rogues with Horselords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo-cavalier-archetypes/horselord-cavalier-archetype/) that could crit on a 12.

He added an Adult Silver Dragon to an encounter table meant for level 4 characters.

Centaurs cavaliers.

Half-celestial Paladin Unicorns.

Fairly weak traps were turned into a DC 26 Symbol of Insanity.

Fucking MYTHIC creatures.

One player's quit, and another is threatening to leave due to the difficulty, we all expressed our dislike of the campaign today, and the DM maintains that this is all by the book.

I died 30 minutes into the session today, and he wouldn't let me come back today. I can bring my next character next week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 17, 2017, 11:57:48 pm

Quote

Paladin Unicorns

Ok now that is an awesome idea! Too bad it isn't by the right DM to enact it.

"Smite Evil Through my horn!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 18, 2017, 12:00:09 am

Does it get a feat called "Emit posterior Rainbow" that illuminates 30 ft, and does a fascination/hypnosis attack?

Because that would be both epic AND funny.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 18, 2017, 12:31:40 am

Quote from: wierd on June 18, 2017, 12:00:09 am

Does it get a feat called "Emit posterior Rainbow" that illuminates 30 ft, and does a fascination/hypnosis attack?

That gives Color Spray a whole new meaning...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 18, 2017, 12:34:02 am

Also increases its flying speed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 18, 2017, 12:37:15 am

This supernatural ability can be used once a day for each level gained, double if Intestinal Fortitude has been taken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: scriver on June 18, 2017, 07:26:58 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 11:23:43 pm

Centaurs cavaliers.

Please tell me they where Centaurs rising horses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 18, 2017, 07:28:25 am

Quote from: scriver on June 18, 2017, 07:26:58 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 17, 2017, 11:23:43 pm

Centaurs cavaliers.

Please tell me they where Centaurs rising horses.

Actually they were riding additional centaurs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 18, 2017, 09:29:46 am

Really stoked about the release of Aquatic Adventures. Finally a bit of expansion on underwater combat rules!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 18, 2017, 11:36:15 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on June 18, 2017, 07:28:25 am

Actually they were riding additional centaurs.

In MY Christian household? Lewd.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 18, 2017, 12:04:52 pm

"Why is our centaur riding a different centaur?" "Because I am a master tactician."
http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=060313

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 18, 2017, 12:16:43 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 18, 2017, 12:04:52 pm

"Why is our centaur riding a different centaur?" "Because I am a master tactician." (http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=060313)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 18, 2017, 10:43:09 pm

DM got us all on Discord today to announce that he has decided that all our characters are dead.

We get assaulted by literally hundreds of Ice Devils and all die. Supposedly this is a required part of the books.

We are to have new characters next week.

Fuck him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 18, 2017, 10:45:26 pm

Ice Devils fall, everyone dies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 19, 2017, 01:32:24 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 18, 2017, 10:43:09 pm

DM got us all on Discord today to announce that he has decided that all our characters are dead.

We get assaulted by literally hundreds of Ice Devils and all die. Supposedly this is a required part of the books.

We are to have new characters next week.

Fuck him.

I'm completely serious here: Get a new GM. Or talk to your GM about why killing the entire party without warning is fucked up, with the rest of the group present. If he doesn't come around, get a new GM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 19, 2017, 01:52:55 am

We've all mentioned our dissatisfaction with the campaign, and how we aren't having fun.

He hides behind the adventure books, claiming that he's running it down to the letter. Even though that's demonstratably false. He's made it clear that he has no intentions of changing it, even after threats of leaving.

I'm tempted to give everyone my copy of the books, since they believe him when he says he hasn't changed a thing. One of the group members called on us to stop buying Paizo products completely and abandon Pathfinder over this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 19, 2017, 01:56:18 am

Do it. Give 'em the books.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 19, 2017, 03:39:03 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 19, 2017, 01:56:18 am

Do it. Give 'em the books.

This. Lay it all out for the party, then, as a group, come up with an ultimatum. If you're all on the same page, it'll be really powerful. If you decide to leave if he doesn't fix his shit, do it as a group. If you decide to abandon Pathfinder, do it as a group. Once you've got everyone onboard, confront the DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 19, 2017, 04:01:40 am

Give them the books, then beat the DM with them as a group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2017, 04:03:42 am

Be sure to have somebody recording his reactions clandestinely, and post it discreetly to youtube, then give us the link, so we can see it. If you are gonna name and shame, let us at least share in the pleasure of his ousting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 19, 2017, 05:08:09 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on June 19, 2017, 03:39:03 am

If you decide to abandon Pathfinder, do it as a group.

I'm not planning on abandoning Pathfinder because of a sadist GM lying about Paizo to rile everyone up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2017, 05:09:29 am

Uhh I have a PHD in Piazo products. In that adventure path there is a whole herd of Paladin Unicorns. Not only that but the DM is instructed to throw a hissyfit in order to test the player's resolve.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: Jimmy on June 19, 2017, 05:15:11 am

Yeah, when you get a sucky DM, hate the player, not the game. Don't quit over one ass-hole. These guys are precisely what give tabletop gamers bad reps and the type I was ranting about a few pages ago.

Wish you the best over your situation bro. Life ain't fair, but hopefully you can get a good outcome and still enjoy yourself with the better members of your group if you do end up calling it in for this game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on June 19, 2017, 01:52:58 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on June 19, 2017, 05:08:09 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on June 19, 2017, 03:39:03 am

If you decide to abandon Pathfinder, do it as a group.

I'm not planning on abandoning Pathfinder because of a sadist GM lying about Paizo to rile everyone up.

That was in reference to the guy who was talking about quitting Pathfinder. I don't think you should, but my point was that everyone should be united in the ultimatum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 20, 2017, 05:00:28 pm

If anyone wants to try something​ new I would be eternally grateful for 2-6 players for my game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164255.0). My poor, poor, game that never got started due to complete​ lack of interest.

At first I thought I would be able to handle things via a strict schedule, then my car died (which almost torpedoed the whole thing), and finally I got access to a tablet​ leaving me in an even better position to run a game than I had in the first place. To make a long story short I can run a proper game now, I just need players.

I promise it won't suck too badly...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 20, 2017, 05:34:22 pm

Here, I'll even run a proper wartime recruiting ad for your group.  Good luck putting your group together.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 21, 2017, 08:21:24 am

I am slightly conflicted about the new thread title, on the one hand it's a little embarrassing, on the other it may actually work...

In any case, thank you for the advertising!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 21, 2017, 09:10:47 am

If I can help fill out someone's table with something as simple as a title change, I'm happy to do so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2017, 01:05:26 am

Quote from: milo christiansen on June 21, 2017, 08:21:24 am

on the other it may actually work...

Oh it's working. I am Inspired; while not recreating the character in my avatar exactly, since no back-stories and that character is 3 UNIVERSES old, I am creating a character with a similar appearance. Definitely not the same power level, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: sjm9876 on June 22, 2017, 07:15:25 am

Colour me intrigued. Might be a day or two before I can get a sheet in though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: Neonivek on June 22, 2017, 07:21:05 am

Hmm the upgraded Ranger looks pretty good all things considered.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 22, 2017, 07:53:26 am

It's working all right, I'm currently running in circles getting character sheets straight! Ok, it's not really that bad, but I have four sign-ups with sheets submitted since yesterday. Considering I only want a max of six, I am a little worried that I may have to turn people away before long.

Now I just hope I can do a good job of running the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: highmax28 on June 22, 2017, 11:52:28 am

Still need two more Guinnea pigs for a 1st edition game.

A reminder:

It'll be more closer to an endless dungeon crawl. It's to get me familiar with 1st edition and have some fun with you guys as we try to figure out this stuff

For those who submitted sheets to me, please be patient. I want a couple more players so you have a fighting chance (or have a couple more meat shields, up to you)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Milo needs you, join today!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 22, 2017, 02:13:39 pm

I have 5 out of 6 maximum players, so I really don't need the ad any more. Sounds like highmax could use one though :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 22, 2017, 02:34:15 pm

Congrats on filling up, your turn highmax.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: highmax28 on June 22, 2017, 03:38:31 pm

Just shoot me a PM if you're interested. I'll help you build the character if you need it

Thanks for the boost.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 22, 2017, 11:45:28 pm

The first combat encounter is turning into a real "adventure". The players were given lots of clues pointing to danger, but also possible reward. When they reached the spot there was a clearing full of bodies (actually different iterations of the same creature) strongly hinting that the thing that was killing the poor dude had been in the area for some time.

Of course half the party tries to charge right in for one reason or another. The scout suggested looking round the edges first, and I hinted that heading right to the middle was a bad idea, but the smell of loot was too strong.

To make a long story short Mr looter got dogpiled (literally), then one of the healers forgot his magic harms Death aligned creatures... Guess Mr Looter's alignment?

Lucky for him I decided there would be no deaths in the first encounter, or he would be dead twice over!

To be fair the party was mostly split down the middle between cautious and irresponsible, so it's not really his fault. I think it's probably just everyone getting used to the game...

Still kinda funny though. (Hopefully no one else gets "killed")

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2017, 11:47:53 pm

I loot the darkness  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 23, 2017, 05:03:24 am

The next session of my Mutants and Masterminds campaign should be... interesting. The gist of this story is a group of friends all getting powers, but a bunch of them go villain, a bunch hero. The heroes of the bunch were supposed to be a slight obstacle to the players in some ways - trying to stop them from involving the cops, insisting on negotiation and the power of friendship, etc. - but as things turned out last session, my players hilariously antagonized the heroes for various reasons; being paranoid, offended by the newbie stealing his thing (they're both superspeedsters), and just pure superdickery.

This culminated in an admittedly accidental nat 20'd telekinetic lance at one of the newbies, knocking him out in one blow (essentially killing them, in DnD terms). They then managed to horrify the other newbie into a one-round change of sides by almost killing one of the bad guys (a persuasion 20 solved that quick). One of the antiheroic players in the group (emphasis on the 'anti') then swore to kill him later on for his betrayal.

Thing is, if he goes through with that attempt, it makes thing real interesting and solves some of my problems, to boot - mainly, that the villains ended up underpowered and nearly dead and could use some reinforcements. These guys will get their heroic friends, horrified by the actions of the player 'heroes', to join them.

The last session also featured an ice slide chase scene at twice the speed of sound through the city streets, a sentence I never thought I'd get to write.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neyvn on June 24, 2017, 01:56:04 pm

Quick Request of Aid.
I have a City where there is two sectors, one which is know as the Imperial Quarter. Where all the Nobles and Wealthy folk live, and the Old Quarter. Artisans, the Poor and so forth.
There is a Bridge that connects the two Quarters over a River. I was wanting to make it so that the Imperial Quarter sometimes puts bans on things entering that part of the city. My first introduction had only really a D4 like table of it.
1- Wealth Standard
2- Weapons
3- Animals
4- Nothing

Kinda boring. I felt that they are a little more eccentric then that and was aiming at at least 20 different things that they could ban from the Quarter.
Some I have an idea about are, Colour of clothing, Music, Race, Events, Attitudes

 Anyone got any ideas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: NJW2000 on June 24, 2017, 02:12:38 pm

Hairstyles! Small change! People with tattoos! Magicians or certain types of mage. Certain kinds of food. Goods made in another country. Poor people. Unmarried women. Married women.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Twinwolf on June 24, 2017, 02:16:00 pm

Left shoes, helmets and hats, glasses, booze, wood, bronze...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 24, 2017, 02:24:29 pm

Speckled eggs, blue ribbons but not green, and most importantly touching love stories (Fallen London reference).

Wigs, and any other element of a disguise (as in, literally no makeup.  Or quality clothes).
Amethyst.  Diamonds with too many facets, IE not sharp enough.
Wine older than a certain vintage.
Newspapers/pamphlets directed at the wealthy.  Things the Old Quarter shouldn't be reading.
slade
slaad
cats and parrots are fined, dogs are fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 24, 2017, 02:42:20 pm

Any books with a greater than average usage of the letter "T".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 24, 2017, 02:48:55 pm

Poor people!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: highmax28 on June 24, 2017, 02:57:08 pm

Having certain colors of a rival house/city on?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: inteuniso on June 24, 2017, 03:20:56 pm

Looking at bridge guards the wrong way. That's suspicious behavior, possibly even the mark of cultists.

EDIT: Follow up, anyone who doesn't worship the quarters gods as their patron diety. Religious tests preferably in the form of a riddle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 24, 2017, 04:08:09 pm

Anyone with an odd number of eyelash hairs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: scriver on June 24, 2017, 05:18:19 pm

Bad weather! Smelly spell ingredients! Harsh tones! Tragic backstories! Severed left feet! Pork chops! Unsanctified water! Godly idols of the wrong gods! Several kinds of geese in the same flock! Any animal used as mounts smaller than Large size! Lanterns without blue coloured glass! Pornographic wood carvings! Three-wheeled carriages! UNWASHED MASSES!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 24, 2017, 10:14:25 pm

Starting to wonder if I should even be playing tabletop games. Doubt I'd be able to find a new group; these guys are pretty much my only friends. But Hell, are these characters ever obnoxious.

One's some third-party Samurai that seems stupidly powerful. And refuses to talk intelligibly with us. Has some English to Japanese speech app on his phone, and we have no idea what's going on. The app's high-pitched speech is annoying though.

Another is being a rampaging, obnoxious Orc. Same sort I've complained about in this thread months ago. Except when the character miraculously becomes some sort of high-class aristocratic supergenius.

The player got into an argument with me and another player because we wouldn't play characters he made for us to play. Whose roles were pretty much just to sit there and worship the Orc.

A few players were making some extreme sexual comments towards the only girl in the group.

I've got a headache from all the screaming at the table today.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 24, 2017, 10:23:59 pm

If you don't mind play-by-post and non-DnD, I have a free slot :)

Seriously though, if your group is that bad it may be time to look elsewhere.

EDIT: If there are any reasonable players maybe you could split off and do your own thing? Surely you aren't the only unhappy player?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 24, 2017, 10:24:31 pm

Screw those guys, just go down to the FG&RP board and play with uuuuusssssssss. ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Sirus on June 24, 2017, 11:02:31 pm

At this point...yeah, I'm thinking playing online might be your best bet. Sounds like your real-life group(s?) are just way too toxic to be enjoyable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: scriver on June 25, 2017, 02:54:58 am

Was the screaming because you called out the gm on the changes he claimed was as written?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 25, 2017, 03:17:37 am

It's just one game group. Only one I've ever been in.

He hasn't been properly confronted about that. Still maintains that the book was unchanged, and I have an incorrect copy. He's not DMing anymore though, since no-one was happy with that campaign.

One player was screaming at another because he wanted to play something, and the other player wanted them to play something different.

Worth noting that the person getting screamed at wasn't even present. He was off on a fishing trip, and just texted his character idea to the DM.

The Orc player screams everything he does. Lots of screaming for the sake of being loud from the Samurai and the Orc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: scriver on June 25, 2017, 03:56:06 am

That sounds very dysfunctional indeed. Perfect for ruining everyone's mood before you even start playing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Harry Baldman on June 25, 2017, 04:07:01 am

Quote from: Sirus on June 24, 2017, 11:02:31 pm

At this point...yeah, I'm thinking playing online might be your best bet. Sounds like your real-life group(s?) are just way too toxic to be enjoyable.

I'd second this, you seem to have an overabundance of grade A twats at your table (not that they're necessarily bad people in general, they're just really shit at tabletop games in the worst kind of way). At least in Roll20 you get to join a game and, if you don't like the group or the game, promptly disappear without explanation or hesitation and nobody can do a damn thing about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neyvn on June 28, 2017, 01:36:33 am

Hmmm, Tempted to offer a group of people *max 5* a game. 5e with a LOT of Homebrewing to it. Almost changing a lot of things but still 5e at core.
Anyone interested in trying my game? Details will come later.
Played on Roll20, Voip via a Discord. DM (me) Australian (+10gmt) but can adjust times if needed to find a good base

Keep mind that this Post will be updated with more information.

NOTES::

Certain Classes and Races are Locked. (Can not choose at Level 1 or via Level Up)
Special Rules regarding how Magic Items and Potions are handled.
Large World to explore, and Freeformed for most part.
Archtypes unlock for Classes and Playstyles.
Unique Actions to gain during Play (Trained in special locations)
Magic is considered High but only in the fact that its a Common use thing regarding mundane things. Magical Items from Books are considered Artifacts and are Rare.
Crafting included. (Prototyped)
Story Driven EXP over Battle EXP so that things can be more entertaining over "I can't have them face this yet cause they will jump like 4 levels easily" shit. (HATE THAT CRAP!)

Some things to Note Now.

Area -

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Its a whole new world, well continent. Trade has finally be establish between two Countries and Adventurers are flocking to this new world to make name for themselves in fame, glory or wealth. Of course this comes with a WHOLE new form of customs and traditions that are foreign to the PC and certain paths might even be locked to foreigners. Of course, the PCs might be from this new world and things come a little easier. This even includes special Classes that are limited to them and them alone. But same with the Foreigners...
The Homeland *Old World* is known as Gleodor, of which there is four nations; Anuin, Bathura, The Bheinn Mountains, The Orc Chiefdoms
The Mainland *New World* is known as Calinstime (name is pending, working on it still ), of which there is two nations; Calindor and Alastime.
Details will come Later about these Nations.

Races -

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are TWO Races that are outright not possible to play as, for story reasons mind you.
They are the Dragonborn and the Teifling. There is a reason for this, but its up to the player to find out why.
Certain Races are also limited to that of which Country/Nation they come from, more Details will be shared later.
The Drow Subrace is also limited in a certain way. The reasoning is, the landmass where this game takes place has no known access to the Underdark, and Drow are not able to come to the surface. BUT, if the player wishes to be Drow, you will find you are a newcomer to this landmass.

Races found in the world for PCs to choose from. Please note that I have their Race sheets and they are editted. Player Guide is still in the works...
Races -
Gleodor -
Anuin : Humans, Halflings, Half Elves, Elves
Bathura : Humans, Halflings, Dwarves
Bheinn Mountains : Dwarves, Rock Gnomes, Svirfneblin
Orc Chiefdoms : Half Orcs
Special Races : Drow

Calinstime
Calindor : Humans, Halflng, Half Elf, Elves,
Calindor Mountains : Dwarves, Rock Gnomes, Svirfneblin
Alastime : Humans, Halfling, Half Elf, Elves
Alastime Badlands : Gnoll
Special Races : Kasatha

While the Svirfneblin are named and use the stats for the book they are found in, they are not Deep Gnomes, they are the Halfbreed of the Rock Gnomes and Dwarves.
Kasatha are a Four Armed Nomadic Tribe found in the Deserts of Alastime. Their stats are still being worked on though

Magic comes in two kinds. Magic and Magik.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Magic is an overarching form of Spells and such, every spellcaster uses this kind of magic. When cast, no matter how (V, S or even M) there will be what is seen as a Runemark. These Runemarks are practically visable to all and have a slight glow about them, when using a Somatic spell, you scribe the Runemark in the air, when Vocal, the Runemark appears after the spells incantation. Material wise a Runemark must be drawn in some way or form. This is not requried by the Player as the PC will do this, but know this, Magic is very much a visual thing, hiding a spell's casting requires high Slight of Hand or some other way that would normally make them "mute".
Magik is the Use of Mana. This is anything that is considered an Innate spellcasting of a Race. These in them selves are not common, they do not use Runemarkings when cast.

Potions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Potions have not a lick of Magic about them. They are Alchemical in nature. Made via a Lab and normally by Alchemists or specialized brewers via Herbalisim (Hedge Witches and the like). They come in 5 different kinds. Brews, Oils, Tincture, Poultice and Salve. When made, the effectiveness will be adjusted depending on what they are made into as well as the amount of Douses.
Crafting is possible, but you need a proper lab for major makes, downtime needed too as Crafting takes time and has a chance to fail or even succeed greatly.

Downtime and Skillgains.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A lot of options for downtime, this isn't a game where its constant dungeons or such. You can use your downtime to craft and learn special skills for your characters. Other then the inital skills you gain at the start, you can gain other skills via book reading or hiring a teacher. These include things such as Armour/Weaponsmithing and even down to Dragonchess. These skills are trainable in some form from Unknown (No idea about the skill) to Master. Each giving different advantages and disadvantages.
Example for this would be one of my current players play testing the system is wanting to do Armoursmithing. He is currently learning from a Book, each book has a certain amount of chapters to read through before you gain the BASE knowledge, but each chapter has certain bonuses. The first chapter allows him to work on Leather items when he finishes them for example. But by the time he finishes the whole thing, he would be considered an Amateur Armoursmither. This gives him a Roll+Strength+1/2 Prof when working Armour. He would need to find a teacher or spend a lot of time to reach Proficient where its considered normal Proficiency. 

Actions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Most Classes have Guild attached to them. These Guilds in major cities have special Actions that can be taught during downtime to players. This is mostly (currently) aimed to the Martial group of classes as Spellcasters are a little different. These actions allow for some special actions to take place. For example, a Fighter could learn about an Action known as a Brash Strike. Allowing him to become more accurate with a +2 to hit and if he is wielding an axe, a hammer, or a mace, the damage increases to your CON, BUT you give anyone targeting you Advantage on their first attack against you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 02, 2017, 01:13:58 am

What do you guys normally do when a player doesn't show?

We've had a few omissions every week for as far as I can remember, and for some reason, we've recently started having someone just play the missing person's character. A bit annoying, but not the worst thing, I guess.

At least it was quieter. The person playing the 3rd party Samurai is irking me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 02, 2017, 01:58:20 am

Contact, then warning, then removal?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Jimmy on July 02, 2017, 04:57:52 am

In my case, if someone isn't showing up it's usually because they're out of town.

In response, I eat all their snacks, and give their character some embarrassing reason they're unable to continue adventuring.

Explosive diarrhoea is always a good one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: highmax28 on July 02, 2017, 08:09:19 am

Quote from: Jimmy on July 02, 2017, 04:57:52 am

In my case, if someone isn't showing up it's usually because they're out of town.

In response, I eat all their snacks, and give their character some embarrassing reason they're unable to continue adventuring.

Explosive diarrhoea is always a good one.

I tend to give them diseases or something, but nothing that will kill you right away.

I remember my DM gave my character cancer when I was gone for a week (cause spellscar that fucked me up more than normal) and I kinda mimicked him but with something like "you got a bad case of the runs" or some custom sickness that gets absurd like "your character no longer grows hair but feathers". Just something to make them go "WHAT THE F*** DID YOU DO WITH ME WHILE I WAS GONE!?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neonivek on July 05, 2017, 05:24:54 pm

I am starting to think Railroading is the faux-satan of Roleplaying.

It is constantly made out to be this HORRID demon, this horrible beast! Yet... Outside niche groups most players prefer to be railroaded to a moderate extent and even more are completely lost if they are not even if they are given hints.

As soon as I stepped outside the hardcore roleplayer minority... BOOM! All of a sudden my player base wanted more direction, more story for them to explore along the way, and to simplify what they have to do. I was incredulous and it was kind of weird going from having my players being so hardcoded against railroading that they outright advocated against time advancing (YES REALLY! That if a evil overlord exists, they he must sit on his throne until the players are good and ready for him), to players actually saying "Hey, probably be best of you railroad for a bit. I need to catch my bearings".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Gentlefish on July 05, 2017, 05:29:12 pm

I don['t think it's so much railroading as it is obvious railroading that bothers players. They like to have the illusion of choice in their games, even if it's so heavily railroaded there's only one possible ending to the whole shebang.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: inteuniso on July 05, 2017, 05:32:04 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on July 05, 2017, 05:29:12 pm

I don['t think it's so much railroading as it is obvious railroading that bothers players. They like to have the illusion of choice in their games, even if it's so heavily railroaded there's only one possible ending to the whole shebang.

It's gotta be smooth, like a hyperloop or a maglev.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neonivek on July 05, 2017, 05:33:01 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on July 05, 2017, 05:29:12 pm

I don['t think it's so much railroading as it is obvious railroading that bothers players. They like to have the illusion of choice in their games, even if it's so heavily railroaded there's only one possible ending to the whole shebang.

Well most games there can only be one REAL ending (outside losing). Even open world games are typically "All roads lead to Rome" as you eventually have to deal with some sort of plot.

I don't think it is "Obvious Railroading" either. It is...

DM: "A Locked door lays infront of you"
Player: "I hit it with my pickax"
DM: "Ohh I didn't think of that... Uhhh... It breaks your Pickax, and your exhausted for trying"

It is slapping the reins out of a player's hand and telling them that your idea of how to solve the problem is superior, I think.

Which come to think of it, I am starting to think "Strongly directed = Railroading" is a construct of this oversensitivity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Gentlefish on July 05, 2017, 05:35:48 pm

I don't think that's railroading as much as being a poor DM.

We're allowed to hack down all the doors we like in our campaign. It's just really noisy and time-consuming!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Sirus on July 05, 2017, 05:42:12 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on July 05, 2017, 05:35:48 pm

I don't think that's railroading as much as being a poor DM.

We're allowed to hack down all the doors we like in our campaign. It's just really noisy and time-consuming!

I would imagine that such an impact could also trigger any traps the door might contain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neonivek on July 05, 2017, 05:43:50 pm

Quote from: Sirus on July 05, 2017, 05:42:12 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on July 05, 2017, 05:35:48 pm

I don't think that's railroading as much as being a poor DM.

We're allowed to hack down all the doors we like in our campaign. It's just really noisy and time-consuming!

I would imagine that such an impact could also trigger any traps the door might contain.

Being a poor DM is sort of an umbrella :P

I had a DM who did that. He also made my Monk get hurt from EVERYTHING he punched.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on July 05, 2017, 05:49:34 pm

The idea of "one REAL ending" is really reductive:

In the door + pickaxe scenario, the "REAL ending" is an open door. However, there's lots of ways to get there:

• Mr. Pickaxe, meet Mr. Door. The door is opened loudly, and easily. This alerts all of the monsters in the area, leading to frantic combat.
• Pick the lock. The door is opened carefully, checking for traps, avoiding the axeblade that will swing down and chop you into two.
• Knock. You interrupt the goblin's poker game. Your players card shark them, winning the key to the hobgoblin's treasure chest. The cleric is terrible at bluffing, and loses his pants.

[cliche]It's about the journey, not the destination.[/cliche]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: wierd on July 05, 2017, 05:56:18 pm

There are magical effects (and items) that work quite a bit like a tranditional satchel charge, or bomb.

Lobbing one at most doors you would expect in a fantasy setting would throw them off their hinges in little woody bits, or bits of stony shrapnel.

Most DMs dont like this kind of thinking though, and want to use the door for encounter control purposes. Really creative problem solving for many of these kinds of encounters could totally bork many DM's carefully laid plans.

Take for instance, a setting predicated on sending the group to take care of some local goblin or orc filth that has been causing trouble, at the cave-centered base of operations for said filth.  It's a cave. It has at least one opening to the outside, and is an enclosed space.  You have some options that are not normally considered, and would be heavily frowned upon by the DM:

A geomancer can cause an earthquake. This will collapse the cave, killing all the goblin/orc filth inside. At the very least, will collapse the opening, trapping them inside, and side-stepping the entire fun-ride the DM had planned.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Geomancy_(5e_Archetype) (level 8 spell)

An alchemist can create a powerful deadly vapors based approach, and gas the entire cave complex from the door. (In order for the cave to NOT suffocate the orc filth inside, there MUST be a draft-- so just having really noxious vapors wafting through and waiting at the door will either result in the orcs barrelling out to escape the gas, or their being gassed inside the cave. If they barrel out, they are restricted by the opening, allowing mass kills.)

Failing that, a hydromancer could simply flood the cave, and drown them all inside.

If the DM wants to say "you cant do that, the rooms are watertight", that leaves the question-- how do the inhabitants not asphyxiate?

Creative problem solving can be a DM's nightmare, which is why some DMs will nerf plans like that. Others will permit them, then exact vengance for derailing the script later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Egan_BW on July 05, 2017, 05:59:25 pm

There are always many possible endings, but most of them involve dead PCs~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Rolan7 on July 05, 2017, 08:19:04 pm

Bit late for this but there might be time, gotta slam this out because game's in progress...

We're a coterie of vampires, very loyal to the local Invictus/government.  We encountered a werewolf cub in a previous session.  Stuff happened, one of our characters died.

Last session, it came back.  It's a vampire.  A vampiric child... as some occult checks informed us... is BAD.
Too busy to talk No time to explain, it's BAD BAD BAD, literally the Children's crusade, can never happen, owls??, and we asked my character's wise mentor primarch, a FANATIC primarch, and he was basically "Uh!  Hm...  You could just kill it."



"Or I guess you could go to Raleigh?"

what do we do

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neonivek on July 05, 2017, 08:20:45 pm

Which to admit even professional work typically just make the door somehow magically protected.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Egan_BW on July 05, 2017, 08:24:29 pm

Wait, so it's a child which is both a werewolf and a vampire? Is it bad news in terms of being stupid OP or something else? If you can kill it, do that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Rolan7 on July 05, 2017, 08:30:20 pm

The vampiric Beast consumed the werewolf's moon-touched spirit.  She's now a vampire completely, also a child.
And it's soooo bad news.

My character recently established status in the Invictus after ~100 years of ghouldom/vampiric servitude, and then was a war hero against some hunters.

Now this.
The Invictus miiiiiight not stake us for harboring it, but they would definitely destroy the abomination.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Egan_BW on July 05, 2017, 08:49:58 pm

If you can't kill it, run far away!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neonivek on July 05, 2017, 08:53:39 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 05, 2017, 08:49:58 pm

If you can't kill it, run far away!

The problem is dnd typically has a "If you learn you cannot win, you are already dead"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Egan_BW on July 05, 2017, 09:19:57 pm

He's playing world of darkness tho.

And I'd think that learning that things are able to kill you by getting killed by them is caused by players charging ahead, not bothering to scout or research their opponents, all because GMs are unwilling to actually present threats that could kill the party. If you carefully design every encounter to be just a little weaker than the party, there's no penalty for just charging ahead, and no reason to do anything but mindlessly kill whatever is in front of you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Rolan7 on July 05, 2017, 09:23:08 pm

One of my bloodbound NPC ghouls gave the abomination some Dora The Explorer DVDs.
Our Nosferatu argued for the things existence, but with less and less conviction.
As Alder of the Invictus, commander of this Nosferatu mercenary, I insisted that this was my call, and I'd take full responsibility.
Our Nosferatu stood aside.
The child turned toward me as I entered the room, and explained the concept of Dora the Explorah.  In some detail.
Using an understanding of human-like interaction I gained by draining life from two poets, I expressed interest as well.

I took aim for three rounds of Dora The Explorer, and staked her.

One the way out, one of my ghouls asked why we did this thing!
Said nosferatu intimidated the impetuous ghoul with a vicious tirade, ironic given her earlier reluctance for this plan.  The poor ghoul dropped the bag of starbursts she was bringing for the kid.  She had brought the Dora DVDs also, earlier.

We located a box in our mansion large enough, and loaded the staked vampire-kid.
We went to the Bank of America building.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Jimmy on July 06, 2017, 02:04:12 am

Fun idea: World of Darkness character that uses Dungeons and Dragons stats for a Vampire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: wierd on July 06, 2017, 02:10:16 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on July 05, 2017, 09:23:08 pm

One of my bloodbound NPC ghouls gave the abomination some Dora The Explorer DVDs.
Our Nosferatu argued for the things existence, but with less and less conviction.
As Alder of the Invictus, commander of this Nosferatu mercenary, I insisted that this was my call, and I'd take full responsibility.
Our Nosferatu stood aside.
The child turned toward me as I entered the room, and explained the concept of Dora the Explorah.  In some detail.
Using an understanding of human-like interaction I gained by draining life from two poets, I expressed interest as well.

I took aim for three rounds of Dora The Explorer, and staked her.

One the way out, one of my ghouls asked why we did this thing!
Said nosferatu intimidated the impetuous ghoul with a vicious tirade, ironic given her earlier reluctance for this plan.  The poor ghoul dropped the bag of starbursts she was bringing for the kid.  She had brought the Dora DVDs also, earlier.

We located a box in our mansion large enough, and loaded the staked vampire-kid.
We went to the Bank of America building.

Envisions a perverse parody of Dora the Explorer, with a clearly vampiric Dora shouting "STAKER! NO STAKING!! STAKER, NO STAKING!!" just be fore she goes feral from hunger, and devours her little monkey sidekick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 06, 2017, 04:45:40 am

Hey all, a question here.

I'm making a class for a Pathfinder game on Mythweavers. It's essentially Falloutfinder (Dungeons and Fallout?), being sort of an alternate continuity where the Great War happened a little differently because of a giant portal to Basically Hell. All the Pathfinder stuff came about from latent magic and whatnot. He's using a few rule variants like Piecemeal Armor, Stamina, and P6, but most importantly - it's Gestalt.

I really want to do a Witch/Wizard, preferably Herb Witch, but I'm open to other things. GM says Paizo only unless you run it by him first. Any suggestions for archetypes I could use?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 06, 2017, 08:24:50 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on July 06, 2017, 04:45:40 am

Hey all, a question here.

I'm making a class for a Pathfinder game on Mythweavers. It's essentially Falloutfinder (Dungeons and Fallout?), being sort of an alternate continuity where the Great War happened a little differently because of a giant portal to Basically Hell. All the Pathfinder stuff came about from latent magic and whatnot. He's using a few rule variants like Piecemeal Armor, Stamina, and P6, but most importantly - it's Gestalt.

I really want to do a Witch/Wizard, preferably Herb Witch, but I'm open to other things. GM says Paizo only unless you run it by him first. Any suggestions for archetypes I could use?

Why not do an Alchemist/Witch instead? If it's P6, Herb Witch takes away 50% of your total hexes, and that's really not something you want as a Witch. Alchemist gets you a lot of witch-brew goodies and you can also throw bombs (or trade those in for Vivisectionist sneak attacks, depending on what kind of witch you'd like to be). Imagine grabbing the flight hex and doing bombing runs on unsuspecting fools at level 5 from the back of your broomstick!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Draignean on July 06, 2017, 12:48:28 pm

Quote from: wierd on July 05, 2017, 05:56:18 pm

There are magical effects (and items) that work quite a bit like a tranditional satchel charge, or bomb.

Lobbing one at most doors you would expect in a fantasy setting would throw them off their hinges in little woody bits, or bits of stony shrapnel.

Most DMs dont like this kind of thinking though, and want to use the door for encounter control purposes. Really creative problem solving for many of these kinds of encounters could totally bork many DM's carefully laid plans.

Take for instance, a setting predicated on sending the group to take care of some local goblin or orc filth that has been causing trouble, at the cave-centered base of operations for said filth.  It's a cave. It has at least one opening to the outside, and is an enclosed space.  You have some options that are not normally considered, and would be heavily frowned upon by the DM:

A geomancer can cause an earthquake. This will collapse the cave, killing all the goblin/orc filth inside. At the very least, will collapse the opening, trapping them inside, and side-stepping the entire fun-ride the DM had planned.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Geomancy_(5e_Archetype) (level 8 spell)

An alchemist can create a powerful deadly vapors based approach, and gas the entire cave complex from the door. (In order for the cave to NOT suffocate the orc filth inside, there MUST be a draft-- so just having really noxious vapors wafting through and waiting at the door will either result in the orcs barrelling out to escape the gas, or their being gassed inside the cave. If they barrel out, they are restricted by the opening, allowing mass kills.)

Failing that, a hydromancer could simply flood the cave, and drown them all inside.

If the DM wants to say "you cant do that, the rooms are watertight", that leaves the question-- how do the inhabitants not asphyxiate?

Creative problem solving can be a DM's nightmare, which is why some DMs will nerf plans like that. Others will permit them, then exact vengance for derailing the script later.

Well, I'm a bit late on the discussion, but these are opportunities for the DM to up their game. Sure the first time this happens it will take you by surprise, because players are cunning little snakes and they typically plan how to bork any encounter if they get wind of it ahead of time. High level parties typically require a particularly nuanced or equally high-level solution in order to prevent them from cutting through 'basic' encounters. However, there are a couple really good stock fallbacks to prevent the party from using the scorched Earth tactics outlined above.

1. Hostages.  If the party is primarily good-aligned, hostages can basically be sprinkled in without too much explanation of why their there. If the party is not primarily good-aligned, then they're not likely purging goblin caves out of the goodness of their heart, and a hostage with useful information makes for a nice and squishy objective.*

*Do note that an evil party might still gas the cave, grab the dead hostage and compel the corpse the answer questions. It's a rather clinically effective solution.

2. Strategic Resources. Sometimes you get asked to kill bad guys in a place because bad guys do bad things and the place isn't that important. By making the place important, and the objective to liberate the place from the bad guys so the good guys can do good things again, you can cut out some forms of scorched earth tactics effectively. A mining town can be effectively blackmailed by a bandit gang that has taken over their copper mine, and the townsfolk want the MINE back intact. Collapsed, filled with water/poison gas, or otherwise obliterated just puts them in an even worse situation. For less altruistic groups, there can easily be some sensitive material that they need to recover that would not take kindly to wholesale destruction.

3. Magitech.  D&D has this odd problem where it can fall into this zone of Low Fantasy- Except for the Player and the Main Antagonist. A good number of GMs just don't do much enchantment in the background level of the environment. In the mine example above, it makes sense that a valuable resource like a mine would be reasonably well protected against flash floods, geologic incidents, and the occasionally gas pocket. There are dozens of useful spells for dealing with these problems, which themselves create more interesting challenges for the players to overcome.

Basically, if your players are jumping the hurdles you're placing, try throwing a metal rod at their knees and see how well they jump then. It's for their own good.


Also, it's important to remember to do the same to them when you have the chance- and to allow for creative failure. If the low-intelligence fighter tries to insistently tamper with the strange magical obelisk's that are somehow linked to a magical research laboratories defense systems, don't just tell them that they've accomplished nothing. Give them a merry chase of violet sparks and ominous hums before you have the system melt down and fry the entire system- opening up the magical defenses that were checking the party's progress, and opening up all the magical defenses that were keeping the... research subjects at bay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: SOLDIER First on July 06, 2017, 04:16:14 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on July 06, 2017, 08:24:50 am

Why not do an Alchemist/Witch instead? If it's P6, Herb Witch takes away 50% of your total hexes, and that's really not something you want as a Witch. Alchemist gets you a lot of witch-brew goodies and you can also throw bombs (or trade those in for Vivisectionist sneak attacks, depending on what kind of witch you'd like to be). Imagine grabbing the flight hex and doing bombing runs on unsuspecting fools at level 5 from the back of your broomstick!

Well, part of the point of being Witch/Wizard is that I don't have to worry about running out of spells. :P And there's already an Alchemist applying; I'm worried enough about my chances right now without a lot of overlap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Kadzar on July 06, 2017, 05:04:00 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 05, 2017, 05:24:54 pm

I am starting to think Railroading is the faux-satan of Roleplaying.

It is constantly made out to be this HORRID demon, this horrible beast! Yet... Outside niche groups most players prefer to be railroaded to a moderate extent and even more are completely lost if they are not even if they are given hints.

As soon as I stepped outside the hardcore roleplayer minority... BOOM! All of a sudden my player base wanted more direction, more story for them to explore along the way, and to simplify what they have to do. I was incredulous and it was kind of weird going from having my players being so hardcoded against railroading that they outright advocated against time advancing (YES REALLY! That if a evil overlord exists, they he must sit on his throne until the players are good and ready for him), to players actually saying "Hey, probably be best of you railroad for a bit. I need to catch my bearings".

I will say that there's a difference between giving direction and outright railroading, the difference between a suggestion and an imperative. But it can exist on a spectrum, and I will agree that some groups don't mind railroading and will feel lost if you ask them what they want to do. Though that's still more a difference between agency of motivation versus agency of action, in that many players have trouble coming up with goals, but most will probably object to you saying what they're trying to do won't work without giving a reasonable explanation of why.

Also, some players might feel, not exactly railroaded, but similarly think they're lacking in agency, when not presented with explicit options about what they can do, which may be a fault of the players not thinking enough, but it can just as easily be a fault of the DM for not giving them enough information to work with. I know that I personally have a problem with not providing much detail unless asked for it (mostly since I improvise most scenarios and environments. To compensate, I generally give a chance for things, such as furniture and light sources and gunpowder kegs, to be available if players ask for them and they would be in a place where it would make sense).

As for players wanting to be immune to time, doing so to my mind could also be seen as railroading in the favor of the players, which is not to say it's a bad thing. Having things happen as time passes is an aspect of portraying the world, which is one of the DM's jobs, though I'd say it's best to not have too many hard time pressures, since that's kind of like a video game where you have to beat it under a certain time or lose. It's better to have things that happen at a certain time not be a complete loss and/or have time pressure come up only when the players are dicking around too much.

---

Mostly unrelated to the above, last night I learned that sending enemies in waves, while good for keeping them from getting annihilated by AoE spells, can effectively turn an encounter into several smaller encounters with no rests between, which, while no walking the park, is much more survivable than a single encounter with all those enemies at once.

So, for context, the players in my group decided to infiltrate the local assassins' guild after following back to their headquarters, who had just seen the message they sent with the bodies of the last assassins sent after them (arranged into a star pattern in the town square, a black star being the symbol of the guild). They then went in disguised as guild members, and, for a brief moment, I had the naive hope that this was just meant to be a recon mission.

Then the bard gathered most of the assassins in the common area around him with a dice game (the headquarters was in an abandoned warehouse, with boxes arranged to form a type of fortifications in the interior, with a main open area in the middle and side rooms in the wall bits), and the wizard cast a fireball on them (evokers in 5e can be a pain with their ability to ignore friendly fire), and the situation quickly escalated.

They pretty quickly dispatched the people in the common room, and, since I didn't want to totally wipe them (and because D&D combat gets bogged down if you use too many enemies at once), I just sent out waves of reinforcements from the different rooms in turn to try to scare them into retreating. But they just kept fighting, even when some of them got knocked unconscious (but they were pretty quickly brought back with healing magic or potions). There was a point in the end when they seemed to be thinking about retreating, but then the bard said something about how heroes in the stories don't retreat, and so they stayed.

Eventually all the rooms were cleared out, so I had to grant them control of the building, since they earned it. In the end, they had killed 57 spies (the NPC type, which is CR 1) and 1 assassin (CR 8). They were 5 level 7 PCs. According to the Kobold Fight Club (http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder) encounter builder, if that was all one encounter, not only would it be rated Deadly, but it would be deadly for any group of 5 PCs less than level 20.

Granted, there might have been some factors that mitigated the deadliness, such as the fact that the players kept hiding in rooms that had been cleared already, and I probably wasn't using the enemies' full abilities (spies can hide as a bonus action, which would have helped them get more rounds of ranged sneak attack, though I'm not really sure they had the longevity for that to be a problem), and I could have used the environment better (with enemies climbing on top of the walls to shoot from a more protected point), but, still, it was a pretty impressive battle on the players' part.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 08, 2017, 05:09:06 pm

This fucking Samurai. Beyond the blatant overpower of the 3pp class, this roleplaying is antagonistic.

All Samurai in real life hunted and tortured peasants for fun, apparently, so it's okay for him to kill quest givers. Peasants are not even human, he says. His character doesn't even consider us other players worthy of his respect, and is just waiting for us to slip to get an excuse to execute us. Worse than the Orc whose alignment is Orc.

I'm definitely gone after this session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: redwallzyl on July 08, 2017, 05:37:37 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on July 08, 2017, 05:09:06 pm

This fucking Samurai. Beyond the blatant overpower of the 3pp class, this roleplaying is antagonistic.

All Samurai in real life hunted and tortured peasants for fun, apparently, so it's okay for him to kill quest givers. Peasants are not even human, he says. His character doesn't even consider us other players worthy of his respect, and is just waiting for us to slip to get an excuse to execute us. Worse than the Orc whose alignment is Orc.

I'm definitely gone after this session.

That's not really true. it was only if they insulted them that they were allowed to kill people. also the generally didn't because lords get angry when you murder their tax payers and most people are not psychopaths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: BlackFlyme on July 08, 2017, 05:58:20 pm

He just drowned a merchant's horses for not giving him free shit, so I don't think he cares what real Samurai did.

Lawful and Good Party my ass.

Edit, he said he's specifically doing stuff he knows will piss us off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Neonivek on July 08, 2017, 06:01:47 pm

There was a term for Samurai, though, who would kill people to test how sharp their swords are.

Yet a lot of aspects of Samurai life are... not exactly true.

Given that suicides in Japanese society, at the time, were... Less than voluntary (in fact, even if it was voluntary it wasn't voluntary).

The Caste System was completely and utterly made up by out of touch nobles and weren't reflected by everyday people...

It is why I find Samurai in pen and paper RPG to be part of "Fantasy Japan" where "What if those out of touch nobles were right?"

Quote

it was only if they insulted them that they were allowed to kill people

To my knowledge the whole "Samurai killing people indiscriminately" was less that they were allowed to... and more that the justice system of feudal Japan was ALL SORTS of messed up. So they could get away with it a lot of the time because a peasants legal recourse was... well terrible.

Though to my knowledge this was never encouraged and near universally reviled.

If you want to get into even greater levels of bastardry you get into the Lords. The law went out of its way to protect them, to the point where even if you were 100% in the right and provably so, you would be punished.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 08, 2017, 06:09:03 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on July 08, 2017, 05:58:20 pm

He just drowned a merchant's horses for not giving him free shit, so I don't think he cares what real Samurai did.

Lawful and Good Party my ass.

Edit, he said he's specifically doing stuff he knows will piss us off.

This is very, very, toxic behavior and you should definitely stop playing with these guys.  It sounds like it is completely out of hand and no one is doing anything to reign it in, and that is a very clear sign of a group self destructing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: scriver on July 08, 2017, 07:24:59 pm

Yeah. Save any nice player you can and go.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: flabort on July 08, 2017, 10:36:56 pm

Quote from: scriver on July 08, 2017, 07:24:59 pm

Yeah. Save any nice player you can and go.

I hope there are some.
I'm probably a pessimist, but it sounds like BlackFlyme is the only remaining nice player. >.>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Avarice on July 08, 2017, 11:40:45 pm

How do you play, cause I'll play.
I'm a great player, always a rogue or fighter.
I love cross classing barbarian rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Jimmy on July 11, 2017, 07:52:25 am

My group's Samurai just retired, actually. It's a sad day, since the player was extremely well liked by all. He's moving to another city, so we're gonna miss him.

He also showed me that the Samurai class in Pathfinder is actually a pretty damned rock solid melee class. Especially the reroll abilities it gains, as well as the ability to negate critical hits. Really, really survivable front line class.

Luckily he wasn't a douche, too. Sorry about your own poor experience BlackFlyme. Hopefully you get a new group with less drama.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Jimmy on July 12, 2017, 05:29:10 am

I'm excited for my next Pathfinder session. I've got a really, really nasty ambush encounter planned.

Underground cavern, waterfall on one side, whitewater rapids below. Spires of stone with rope bridges between them.

And a Roper hidden in the ceiling disguised as a stalactite.

Gonna be fun!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 16, 2017, 01:42:36 pm

Since my last campaign fizzled out due to a number of factors I've switched over to a more character-oriented setup in RIFTS, so far it is going pretty well, but I'm having to manage far more NPCs than usual which is becoming slightly problematic.

There aren't any issues with the main NPCs or the old standby characters I use to flesh out the world, but I'm having trouble with the 'personal' NPCs that I'm building for the players.  That trouble is mostly coming in the form of keeping names straight when we have regular two-week breaks between sessions, and I am terrible at writing things down.

I think I'm going to have to appoint someone note-taker again, and no one likes that job.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: highmax28 on July 16, 2017, 06:57:44 pm

Making a last call for players for my D&D Basic players. If you already got a hold of me, you should have a PM.

Please don't post unless you're PTW. If you want to join, PM me directly

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164883.msg7512546#msg7512546 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164883.msg7512546#msg7512546)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Sirus on July 16, 2017, 08:23:21 pm

I'm not a huge fan of D&D Basic so far. Maybe the actual gameplay is better but character creation is garbage x_x

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: Rolan7 on July 16, 2017, 08:43:02 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on July 05, 2017, 09:23:08 pm

On the way out, one of my ghouls asked why we did this thing!
Said nosferatu intimidated the impetuous ghoul with a vicious tirade, ironic given her earlier reluctance for this plan.  The poor ghoul dropped the bag of starbursts she was bringing for the kid.  She had brought the Dora DVDs also, earlier.

I was so busy being drunk and conflicted that I didn't realize the significance of this.
In the next session, when our Nosferatu got captured (I'm not storytiming that for now), said ghoul volunteered her relief that our coterie member was "gone".

See, I bestowed this ghoul with the Dominate discipline.  The GM did warn me there might be consequences.  Even when I chastised her, there was a hint of...

"Oh good, I never liked her anyway."
"...That is not your place, ghoul!"
"I'm sorry!  I have no opinion whatsoever about her!" (implied /s)

...This might be a problem.  It's definitely interesting.  She is very intelligent statwise.  She is one of the coffee-house debaters who didn't like my character's poetry, heh.
Intelligence is even the core stat for dominate.  It only makes sense that she would assert herself (though never against me...  I think)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: highmax28 on July 16, 2017, 10:00:04 pm

Quote from: Sirus on July 16, 2017, 08:23:21 pm

I'm not a huge fan of D&D Basic so far. Maybe the actual gameplay is better but character creation is garbage x_x

I played one of the D&D basic video games and its much easier playing it than character creation (most of the work is done for you too...). It DOES take some getting used to. I'm nowhere near ready to run a game in real life of this, which is why I'm getting practice in... Sadly, you're gonna be my test subjects :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: highmax now calling for AD&D players!
Post by: highmax28 on July 18, 2017, 09:02:55 pm

I got two more spots open for D&D basic. You can get in now before the party leaves the area.

Here's the thread for those interested (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164883.0;topicseen)

If you're interested, PM me before posting. If you wanna watch, feel free to

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 21, 2017, 02:06:06 pm

New discussion point!

Science-fiction, fantasy, modern, or other?  Possibly even some combination thereof?

I really enjoy both sci-fi and fantasy role-play, though I favor sci-fi in particular.  I love creating new and interesting technologies based on current science, they're still fantastical and off in la-la land, but it feels fun to have it be based on 'real' concepts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Criptfeind on July 21, 2017, 02:08:57 pm

Heh. I prefer fantasy, I think maybe for almost the opposite reason. It's easier for me to accept a world where "magic dun did it" is an acceptable reason for anything rather then fake techno mumbo jumbo that's just as magical but trying to pretend to be at least somewhat "real"

Also just the theme and feeling in general. Fantasy feels more... How to say. Open. To me. Like you can head off to the horizon and find new stuff in new corners of the world. Sci-fi of course you can head off to new planets and stuff as well... But it just feels a little bit... Empty. In space. I guess. I know that doesn't really make that much sense, but hey, it's just a feeling.

Also a lot of my favorite tropes of things, necromancery, lizard men, Cthulhu type stuff, is at least more common in fantasy (although not unknown in sci-fi)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 21, 2017, 02:11:54 pm

Magic is technology, technology is magic. I prefer a decent dose of both.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:12:58 pm

Someday, I'll find a game of Shadowrun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neonivek on July 21, 2017, 02:20:17 pm

I'd run that but I haven't grasped the rules, concepts, and narrative enough.

Well rules less so... But I feel running one requires a very specific mindset.

In dungeons and dragons, for example, you give someone a problem and the players deal with the problem directly. (direct)

In Shadowrun you give the players a problem, and the players do footwork to diminish the problem, then deal with the problem directly. (Direct and indirect)

In Call of Cthulhu you give the players a problem, and the players deal with the problem indirectly. (Indirect)

---

Not that there aren't exceptions but that is the rule of thumb of where the strength of these systems lie and where the pivot point is located.

Though the biggest issue overall are hackers. Who suffer from: They play an entirely different game from everyone else. But I hear that the games have done better with robots and no longer making hacking take place entirely in hypertime.

Goodness I'd love to give it a shot when I think about the implications of all that. The guard patrols, the cameras, even the lights and security...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 21, 2017, 02:24:42 pm

Schizotech is best.
Barbarians with plasma spears - hoplites in power armour. Peasants till the fields with mechanised bulls, and kings wear gleaming crowns of cybernetics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:28:41 pm

Yeah, the issue with Shadowrun is the deckers, overall. They fuck with the flow of the game a whole lot.

... I still wanna play it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neonivek on July 21, 2017, 02:33:15 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:28:41 pm

Yeah, the issue with Shadowrun is the deckers, overall. They fuck with the flow of the game a whole lot.

... I still wanna play it.

I'd almost want to do it by instead giving the PCs "Decker points" that they can spend on hacking of their choice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 02:34:03 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:28:41 pm

... I still wanna play it.

Same

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on July 21, 2017, 02:38:12 pm

lol 8 replies

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 21, 2017, 02:06:06 pm

New discussion point!

Science-fiction, fantasy, modern, or other?  Possibly even some combination thereof?

I really enjoy both sci-fi and fantasy role-play, though I favor sci-fi in particular.  I love creating new and interesting technologies based on current science, they're still fantastical and off in la-la land, but it feels fun to have it be based on 'real' concepts.

Yes!  ...Aw, must we choose?

Thinking about it, my group has played all three types of fantasy.  No "hard sci-fi", AKA what I'd prefer "science fiction" to mean, but we did play futuristic fantasy (Shadowrun).

That was just one relatively short (2-month) campaign though.  We also played a Caribbean pirates session ("Poisoned" alpha, I ran that).

By time, I think we mostly played DND fantasy.  But we've been playing New World of Darkness modern for a looong time now, and I still sorta love it.  Vampires, Demons, (Christmas of 1984 interlude in DND), back to Vampires...

Setting a game in modern times is strange in a lot of ways.  The behavior one expects in magical fantasy RPGs might have a lot more consequences.  And even if the modern setting is magical, normal people tend to be very mortal (Not just WoD, but Cthulhu).  Bullets often graze, but a single moderately-fortunate stab or shot can wreck someone's day.  Not like DND where epic level 7 heroes are mostly immune to commoners. 

My current vampire was almost at peak human resilience even when she was human, and now she's a relatively long-lived vampire with supernatural resilience.  But three nurses (quasi-vampire... things) attacked her one round, cutting around her dodge and armor, and nearly took her out of commission in one round.  They weren't even super lucky!  It's just that in such settings, you're expected to avoid getting stabbed with scalpels.

You're supposed to use non-combat skills to engineer situations where you aren't getting attacked.  Because every time you're attacked, the DM is rolling exploding dice.  Did I mention there are no attack-of-opportunity or zone of control rules?  If you melee, you better have friends to drag you away if you're unlucky.
Fortunately, in such lethal fights, people aren't interested in finishing off the unconscious.  If they can even tell the difference in the heat of battle (3 second rounds).

I meant to talk about futuristic settings but this has rambled too long already.  I like them, and I kinda want to see more.  But really, I like all three.  (tendency towards modern maybe)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:43:12 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 21, 2017, 02:33:15 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:28:41 pm

Yeah, the issue with Shadowrun is the deckers, overall. They fuck with the flow of the game a whole lot.

... I still wanna play it.

I'd almost want to do it by instead giving the PCs "Decker points" that they can spend on hacking of their choice.

literally the most boring way to handle hacking: spend points to have it happen

I'd rather just cut sessions up, or something along those lines.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neonivek on July 21, 2017, 02:45:45 pm

The issue quickly hit with going directly to sci-fi in dungeons and dragons is typically that Mages take a hit to their effectiveness because now Fighters get laser guns and beam swords.

Often the way they fix that issue is by making the weapons less effective than they should reasonably be...

Which honestly sometimes the best part about playing a setting is taking the whole shebang. If I am playing a Caveman game, then maybe bone isn't a very effective material.

Quote

literally the most boring way to handle hacking: spend points to have it happen

I'd rather just cut sessions up, or something along those lines.

This is in the scenario where NO ONE can be a Decker and they have a NPC decker who doesn't directly participate.

Another way, I guess, is to give them a rating and have their actions take turns and require direct input...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 02:46:27 pm

Apologies for derailing the discussion, but I need some advice. On August 5th I plan on running a DnD game with two of my buddies (I'll be GM), and I have no idea what to do. Currently I have an idea of what the quest will be about (it will be about trying to kidnap an exotic beast from an elven wildlife sanctuary to sell it to the circus), but that's it. What else should I have ready?

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:43:12 pm

Quote from: Neonivek on July 21, 2017, 02:33:15 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 02:28:41 pm

Yeah, the issue with Shadowrun is the deckers, overall. They fuck with the flow of the game a whole lot.

... I still wanna play it.

I'd almost want to do it by instead giving the PCs "Decker points" that they can spend on hacking of their choice.

literally the most boring way to handle hacking: spend points to have it happen

I'd rather just cut sessions up, or something along those lines.

A common solution is to just have a decker npc, and all the hacking happens off camera.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on July 21, 2017, 02:49:49 pm

Why not just let the whole party participate? So when a decker initiates a hack, the whole party gets sucked into cyberspace.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Teneb on July 21, 2017, 02:56:32 pm

While I like both fantasy, sci-fi and the science-fantasy a few system got going (namely, Shadowrun), I must say I prefer either the sci-fi or the sci-fantasy ones.

The main beef I have with fantasy settings and rpgs is that most are artificially locked to this "medieval stereotype" tech level. Hell, if you have magic, why not have magic trains instead of everyone walking/riding everywhere? Why not have teleporting stations, if wizards are all over the place? And so on.

Anyway, in a few hours I'm about to start a new Eclipse Phase campaign with my previous group + 1 "new" player (she played back when it was someone else DMing and the game was D&D 5e). Players decided they want to be space pirates instead of having to deal with conspiracies and extinction-level threats, so it'll be interesting. Especially since EP leans heavily toward the hard side of sci-fi.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Criptfeind on July 21, 2017, 02:58:58 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 21, 2017, 02:49:49 pm

Why not just let the whole party participate? So when a decker initiates a hack, the whole party gets sucked into cyberspace.

Because no one other then the hacker is going to have the ability to meaningfully contribute in cyberspace. (Heck, for the mage even implanting themselves with the ability to access this stuff is probably going to permanently weaken their ability to do magic.) Stuff happening in the astral world has some of the same issues, in that no one but the mage can normally even do anything there, and if you do suck them in, most of them are going to be worse then useless.

Anyway, the parallel gaming is honestly only one of the issues of shadowrun. To me, the bigger issue is how poorly made the game itself actually is. At least, in 5E (I heard later editions super simplifed it some, which might help this.) but basically the game itself is really poorly made, fiddly, contradictory, and just sorta crap. Cool setting. Awful designers.

Quote from: Teneb on July 21, 2017, 02:56:32 pm

The main beef I have with fantasy settings and rpgs is that most are artificially locked to this "medieval stereotype" tech level. Hell, if you have magic, why not have magic trains instead of everyone walking/riding everywhere? Why not have teleporting stations, if wizards are all over the place? And so on.

I sorta like Eberron because this is what it does. I mean, high level magic is specifically rare, so you don't have teleportation being the main mode of travel by any means, but it exists for the very rich and so do magical trains.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on July 21, 2017, 03:17:37 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on July 21, 2017, 02:06:06 pm

New discussion point!

Science-fiction, fantasy, modern, or other?  Possibly even some combination thereof?

I really enjoy both sci-fi and fantasy role-play, though I favor sci-fi in particular.  I love creating new and interesting technologies based on current science, they're still fantastical and off in la-la land, but it feels fun to have it be based on 'real' concepts.

I prefer fantasy for one, cynical reason: out of the three, it's easiest to world build. There's a set formula, with lots of tropes to pull from, and you don't have to deliver on a certain set of authenticity that the others demand. SciFi is more difficult to world build, because you can't just say "Dwarven stronghold here, Elven outpost here, human city here, bbeg here." You need to make alien races, exotic tech, etc. And I find modern settings the hardest, because I have a fetish in my work where I have to be highly accurate or authentic, so I end up struggling with them.

Quote from: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 02:46:27 pm

Apologies for derailing the discussion, but I need some advice. On August 5th I plan on running a DnD game with two of my buddies (I'll be GM), and I have no idea what to do. Currently I have an idea of what the quest will be about (it will be about trying to kidnap an exotic beast from an elven wildlife sanctuary to sell it to the circus), but that's it. What else should I have ready?

If none of them speak elvish, then give them the creature's name, but not what it looks like, so they have to do some detective work.
Pull out an old story book, or find a mythology website for some unique monster ideas. I recommend https://abookofcreatures.com
Have some interesting zookeeperesque characters to round it out for interesting NPCs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on July 21, 2017, 03:35:09 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on July 21, 2017, 02:38:12 pm

My current vampire was almost at peak human resilience even when she was human, and now she's a relatively long-lived vampire with supernatural resilience.  But three nurses (quasi-vampire... things) attacked her one round, cutting around her dodge and armor, and nearly took her out of commission in one round.  They weren't even super lucky!  It's just that in such settings, you're expected to avoid getting stabbed with scalpels.

A little more on this...
GM: "3, 2, 3... 8 damage.  ...Real sorry Eleanor, guess you're taking a nap."
Me: "[consider] ...Well, no."
GM: "Oh right, you have resilience activated?"
Me: "I could, sure.  But also I have one left."
Other player who ran a 6 health (1 stamina plus 5 base) character recently:  "Jesus christ"

I had a serious wound penalty, but no.  I built this character to survive, after I lost a character I really liked.
I really like this one too, which works out, because she's a high-ranking manipulator ventrue...  And when things go awry, she still turns out to be tough as all fuck.
(That's something I like about NWoD, it encourages you to spread points a bit.  She has massive stamina, but she's not very strong or dextrous.  She simply continues.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 03:49:23 pm

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on July 21, 2017, 03:17:37 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 02:46:27 pm

Apologies for derailing the discussion, but I need some advice. On August 5th I plan on running a DnD game with two of my buddies (I'll be GM), and I have no idea what to do. Currently I have an idea of what the quest will be about (it will be about trying to kidnap an exotic beast from an elven wildlife sanctuary to sell it to the circus), but that's it. What else should I have ready?

If none of them speak elvish, then give them the creature's name, but not what it looks like, so they have to do some detective work.
Pull out an old story book, or find a mythology website for some unique monster ideas. I recommend https://abookofcreatures.com
Have some interesting zookeeperesque characters to round it out for interesting NPCs.

I should probably clarify, this is my first time ever running a DnD game and I'm super nervous. I've read the rule books but I don't know how to set things up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 21, 2017, 04:20:49 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 03:49:23 pm

I should probably clarify, this is my first time ever running a DnD game and I'm super nervous. I've read the rule books but I don't know how to set things up.

Have some characters ready to interact with the PCs. Preferably funny and interesting ones to help draw players into the setting. Break out the ragmen, the bearded lady, the circus wizard, the elven poachers (what, you expect a naturally chaotic race to abide by its own rules?), the headman of the nearby hamlet constantly beset by elven fuckery, the traveling druid with a massive snake he'd love to show you. Make the exotic beast intelligent and able to speak (as many magical beasts already can, and others could learn to if, say, the elf elder saw fit to Awaken them), and perhaps an entirely reasonable sort at that not necessarily opposed to being put up for show in a circus (if the PCs are able to explain it to a satisfactory degree, that is), provided you could show it a contract with certain guarantees...

Ultimately the adventure is a way to bring people to A) experience and riff on the fun of the characters and events you bring to the table (this includes your monsters, so make sure to give them character moments as well) as well as B) discover and riff on the fun parts of their own characters in the process. Both components are important. Don't be afraid to throw in an in-joke or two to increase player familiarity with the setting.

As for stats and such, don't worry about it that much. Have them ready for the things you'd expect the players to fight (elves, the exotic beast, fun wildlife, the druid's massive snake, local toughs looking to screw the PCs out of their rightful claim, etc.) and maybe write down the salient bits (attacks, damage, HD, HP, saves and attribute bonuses, noteworthy skills and special abilities) on a card for easy lookup.

Maps you can also draw up on the spot on millimeter paper, especially since there doesn't look to be any kind of dungeon component involved. Towns don't actually need maps (neither really does anything else other than immediate battle maps and dungeons), but work out what they look and feel like in advance. Have a broad attitude, look and feel worked out for the forest as well (dark and foreboding? primordially beautiful? colorful yet horribly dangerous? teeming with bizarre invertebrates? unnaturally sterile and park-esque due to elven forestry?), and for elves if you expect they'll be present.

And, y'know, have the dice in place and a spot to roll them.

Other than that, don't feel pressured to work out too much in advance. Invariably the players will have either a mildly different understanding of the setting and the problem at hand from you, so making too much of a railroad can throw you for a loop.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on July 21, 2017, 04:27:11 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on July 21, 2017, 02:58:58 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 21, 2017, 02:49:49 pm

Why not just let the whole party participate? So when a decker initiates a hack, the whole party gets sucked into cyberspace.

Because no one other then the hacker is going to have the ability to meaningfully contribute in cyberspace. (Heck, for the mage even implanting themselves with the ability to access this stuff is probably going to permanently weaken their ability to do magic.) Stuff happening in the astral world has some of the same issues, in that no one but the mage can normally even do anything there, and if you do suck them in, most of them are going to be worse then useless.

Anyway, the parallel gaming is honestly only one of the issues of shadowrun. To me, the bigger issue is how poorly made the game itself actually is. At least, in 5E (I heard later editions super simplifed it some, which might help this.) but basically the game itself is really poorly made, fiddly, contradictory, and just sorta crap. Cool setting. Awful designers.

I'd really love to run or play in a cyberpunk game, especially Shadowrun (currently playing through the recent CRPGs), but the rules for such tend to be overly-complicated, or you otherwise find rules-light games that don't give you enough gear to or anything to be satisfying.

As for the decker problem, one option would be for the decker to have ride-along gear, so other players could operate extra avatars that the decker creates, since cyberpunk usually likes to depict cyberspace as basically a videogame. So they couldn't perform power user functions, but they could help fight defense programs. Also, when not facing significant obstacles, the decker should only need a single roll to affect nearby technology.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on July 21, 2017, 04:27:45 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 03:49:23 pm

I should probably clarify, this is my first time ever running a DnD game and I'm super nervous. I've read the rule books but I don't know how to set things up.

AH.
In that case, here's a barrage of questions:
How many times have you played D&D before? How about the players? Are they novices, or veterans? (Novices need less to be impressed, while veterans love a good curve ball.)
What level are we talking? (Lower levels will be easier, since you don't have to worry about all the spells a wizard could use, but don't offer the mechanical engagement that higher levels offer.)
How long do you want the session to be? (You're looking at about 15~60 minutes per encounter, depending on the difficulty, and the experience of the players. I'd aim for two/three fights: easy, introduction fight, medium difficulty midway fight, and a good climatic 'boss' battle.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 05:44:27 pm

None, it's going to be everyone's first game. I want to start at level 1 but I can change that if you think it's a good idea (Nobody's starting with magical items though. My players will only be reading the handbook). Session can be as long as it needs to be, I'd say 3-6 hours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Teneb on July 21, 2017, 06:48:40 pm

I though my previous campaign got out of hand. I knew nothing.

My players hijacked a cargo ship, and went to a habitat to fence it. Their attempts to fence devolved into memetic warfare, faking a murder, impersonating the victim, outright terrorism, and planning a coup.

And then I decided, you know what, someone else also is doing a coup. The players decided to do a counter-coup. They failed and escaped, abandoning their attempts at doing a coup for just trying to fence again at a new location.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on July 21, 2017, 07:22:32 pm

... Jesus christ

That'd be a great book

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on July 22, 2017, 02:48:49 am

My players aren't used to conserving their resources after so long without a dungeon crawl. The sorcerer blew her wad early by blasting most of her high level spells at trash mobs at the entrance to a gnoll cave complex. The cleric's just about tapped after resurrecting the player with the most hit points when he died to a crit from a longbow, and they've decided to rest.

In the middle of the dungeon.

Next session's gonna be fun!

(I'm giving them five encounters between rest cycles, whether it's stuff they actively seek or ambush encounters.)

Also, I really wanna run a campaign centred around the players as members  of the city guard. Instead of being murderhobos, they're responsible for protecting the city, investigating crimes, and getting chewed out by their sergeant who's perpetually six months away from retirement. Drag out all the cheesy cop show tropes, but with magic!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 22, 2017, 07:46:06 am

Quote from: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 05:44:27 pm

None, it's going to be everyone's first game. I want to start at level 1 but I can change that if you think it's a good idea (Nobody's starting with magical items though. My players will only be reading the handbook). Session can be as long as it needs to be, I'd say 3-6 hours.

Well, you can start at level 1, just be sure to make sure they level up immediately after the first session.

Though it'd also be helpful to know which edition we're talking here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Criptfeind on July 22, 2017, 10:31:28 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on July 22, 2017, 07:46:06 am

Well, you can start at level 1, just be sure to make sure they level up immediately after the first session.

Why make sure to level up immediately after the first session?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on July 22, 2017, 11:20:29 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on July 22, 2017, 07:46:06 am

Quote from: heydude6 on July 21, 2017, 05:44:27 pm

None, it's going to be everyone's first game. I want to start at level 1 but I can change that if you think it's a good idea (Nobody's starting with magical items though. My players will only be reading the handbook). Session can be as long as it needs to be, I'd say 3-6 hours.

Well, you can start at level 1, just be sure to make sure they level up immediately after the first session.

Though it'd also be helpful to know which edition we're talking here.

Currently I'm torn between 3.5 and fifth edition (I know, very helpful). I would normally choose fifth edition, but the only book I have is a phb that my friend lent me for a previous DnD game that never materialized. While for 3.5, I have all the core books. One of my friends insists I can just run DnD with just the phb, but I'm not so sure about that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Tawa on July 22, 2017, 11:23:24 am

There's a 5e SRD, but if you have all the 3.5 rulebooks, you'll probably be better off with those.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 22, 2017, 01:05:56 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on July 22, 2017, 10:31:28 am

Why make sure to level up immediately after the first session?

Because being level 1 is terrible and the sooner you get out of it the better. The fact that it's terrible, however, is something you can use to your advantage to make that first levelup that much more satisfying. Level 2 is particularly important because it's the only level that effectively doubles your HP, and having a rapid progression for the first couple levels works well because they're built to be gone through relatively quickly, unlocking most of your basic class features. Especially the case in 5E where that applies to most of your important class features for all classes.

Quote from: heydude6 on July 22, 2017, 11:20:29 am

Currently I'm torn between 3.5 and fifth edition (I know, very helpful). I would normally choose fifth edition, but the only book I have is a phb that my friend lent me for a previous DnD game that never materialized. While for 3.5, I have all the core books. One of my friends insists I can just run DnD with just the phb, but I'm not so sure about that.

Play whichever you're more familiar with, it makes the game smoother if you have a good grasp on the rules.

Also the DM's Guide for 5E is mostly supplementary information, it does have pointers for encounter design and helpful suggestions for variant rules, but it's not completely indispensable.

You might want to get your hands on a Monster Manual for 5E though, that's pretty useful to have a look through even if you could theoretically improvise the details, but for prep you can just as well use the SRD (it has pretty much everything that's in the MM, the mechanical bits from the DM's Guide and the PHB's information in a more easily navigable form, particularly for spells, although there are mistakes in there too): http://5e.d20srd.org/

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 22, 2017, 01:30:05 pm

Persopnally I'd say 5e is a better system in the first place, so go with that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 23, 2017, 02:38:22 am

5e is much quicker to learn in my opinion and I'd definitely recommend it more for first-timers?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on July 23, 2017, 08:30:47 am

We haven't actually played 5e yet still, but from what we've seen so far, it's probably a better place to start.  3.5e is more technical (even before you get into the billion optional splat books).  I'm still leery of some of the ways they streamlined, such as "advantage", but it's still got almost all the meat of 3.5e with a lot less of the hassle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Sirus on July 23, 2017, 09:54:46 am

I haven't been paying much attention to 5E, but is it still stuck at the basic classes, basic races stage? I like having plenty of options when creating characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 23, 2017, 10:00:23 am

Quote from: Sirus on July 23, 2017, 09:54:46 am

I haven't been paying much attention to 5E, but is it still stuck at the basic classes, basic races stage? I like having plenty of options when creating characters.

Nah, PHB's been out for years now if that's what you're asking about, and we've got a fairly minor splatbook in the form of Volo's Guide to Monsters which gives a couple cool races. In addition to that there's been a bunch of Unearthed Arcana material that's shaping up to be put together into a new book, including the Mystic which actually looks really good.

Overall it's still a bit lacking in options, but with UA and whatever their new book is it'll probably look a lot better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 23, 2017, 11:33:50 am

Quote from: Sirus on July 23, 2017, 09:54:46 am

I haven't been paying much attention to 5E, but is it still stuck at the basic classes, basic races stage? I like having plenty of options when creating characters.

I prefer it when the first session's character gen is a contest to see who can bring the most bizarre adventurer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Teneb on July 23, 2017, 11:42:24 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on July 23, 2017, 11:33:50 am

Quote from: Sirus on July 23, 2017, 09:54:46 am

I haven't been paying much attention to 5E, but is it still stuck at the basic classes, basic races stage? I like having plenty of options when creating characters.

I prefer it when the first session's character gen is a contest to see who can bring the most bizarre adventurer.

Also, each class has a bunch of "packages" that can be picked at levels 1, 2 or 3 (depending on the class). They can change things around quite a bit. For instance, Nature Domain for clerics turns you into a mini-druid. Meanwhile, sorcerers can act as if they're dragon disciples if they pick the right origin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on July 23, 2017, 12:39:12 pm

Speaking of "interesting" characters I'm playing a game where I have a cleric of RNG, complete with a holy d20. It's awesome...

The GM has tables to roll against whenever I roll my holy die, which produces all kinds of bizarre effects. Also it's great to be able to legitimately call upon RNG when rolling for something (not that it actually helps). Obviously the game isn't terribly serious, but half the fun of this character is to play him straight, leaning on the fourth wall (too much) is best avoided...

Anyway, this is one of the first RPGs I've played, and I really like it so far. Mostly because of this character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: highmax28 on July 23, 2017, 05:24:06 pm

Quote from: Sirus on July 23, 2017, 09:54:46 am

I haven't been paying much attention to 5E, but is it still stuck at the basic classes, basic races stage? I like having plenty of options when creating characters.

While there aren't many classes, unearthed arcana released so many archetypes over the past year last year that they had about a new thing every week for a bit.

I do get how the desire to have more options is a desire, but the two new classes they're working on, Mystic and Artificer, are awesome but either too weak to really use long term OR they're a little broken. It depends on what you do, really.

As for races, Volo's Guide to Monsters released monstorous races (goblin, kobold, etc) and unearthed arcana brought more races as well (warforged, shifters, and more)

So there are options officially released by Wizards, but they're hidden in campaign books, Monster Manuals (I consider Volo's guide a MM), Campaign Guides and in unearthed arcana.

However, this also leads to your friend finding a bunch of homebrews thinking they're unearthed arcana and trying to use a class that says "I get 3/4 feats at level 1 and I have a dragon" before even fully reading into it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on July 24, 2017, 05:30:12 am

Quote from: milo christiansen on July 23, 2017, 12:39:12 pm

Speaking of "interesting" characters I'm playing a game where I have a cleric of RNG, complete with a holy d20. It's awesome...

I like it! Reminds me of the Goblins comic where the cleric's deity is the DM. I'm assuming your cleric worships RNGesus and his domains are madness and luck?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on July 24, 2017, 05:35:56 am

RNJesus, the Cleric who rolled a nat 1 on a d100 roll for divine intervention, getting a miracle cast on himself with the effects of a True Resurrection after he was burnt to ashes and his soul was eaten due to a "let's go to jail and undo the regime from the inside" plan gone catastrophically wrong.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on July 24, 2017, 02:42:14 pm

Nope, no RNGesus. Just plain old "his most random mightiness, RNG". The game is rather light on hard rules, so I don't really have domains. I am kinda chaotic though. Not necessarily because I do random things (I don't really), but because my holy die causes random weird things to happen whenever I roll it...

Of course I roll it all the time :P

Thanks for the reminder about the DM worshiper. That was hilarious way back when I read it last...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Yoink on August 01, 2017, 05:17:03 am

What's Absalom like this time of year?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 03, 2017, 10:11:11 pm

The player's guide for the new Pathfinder Adventure Path is up, if anyone's interested.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9uir?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Ruins-of-Azlant-Players-Guide

Spoiler: They're pretty up front about what it's about. (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/wFNKEPG.png)

I'm more excited for Starfinder. There's also a new miniature kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-4-mr-bones-epic-adventure) from Reaper.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 03, 2017, 11:28:24 pm

Hot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on August 04, 2017, 12:12:31 am

In case anyone is interested, there's a Kickstarter going right now for Stars Without Number Revised Edition (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/stars-without-number-revised-edition). If you want a preview, here is the last beta version (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcUWk5UkVuNTVWeUk/view) the creator shared before the Kickstarter launched. The final version will have more art and examples and editing, and the deluxe version will have what's noted as deluxe content on the first page (like the first edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86467/Stars-Without-Number-Free-Edition), the revised version will have both a free and a deluxe version available, with the deluxe version just including some extra rules).

Some of the biggest changes are that the game now uses ascending AC, skills and character creation rules have been revised (skill list is condensed, and character creation is somewhat different, including the addition of Focuses, which are somewhat like feats in modern D&D), the psionics system has changed (disciplines now work as skills (though still only available to Psychics or the new Adventurer class if they pick Psychic as one of their two options) with a core technique, and then you can learn other techniques which often modify the core technique. Maybe easier to understand if you look at it yourself.

There's also rules for hacking, rules for modifying equipment and starships, space combat has been revised (so, instead of ships being in different phases that they tried to fire into, all the players now operate different battle stations that work together in a fight), and rules for robot and alien player characters. Plus some new gear and starship fittings. Oh, yeah, and also drones.

Besides being a good space game, this is shaping up to be close to the sort of rules-medium cyberpunk game I've been looking for. It doesn't have quite the magic system I'd need to do Shadowrun, but, on the other hand, it does have starships, and the deluxe version will have mechs, so it seems pretty decent in my book.

At this point, I know I plan to back it, but I'm not sure if I want to just go for the $75 premium color version or if I want to spend an extra $100 to get all of the first edition material in this ridiculously-huge omnibus (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4qCWY8UnLrcMUVhdUx4SmZYR0U). Decisions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 04, 2017, 04:50:06 am

I'm currently playing an SWN Revised game with the beta rules and it's pretty much fixed the original's ruleset (the psionics system in particular is wonderfully remade, and the foci add a lot to character customization) to the point where it's a legitimately great game. Would recommend to anyone doing a sci-fi game, especially considering the core ruleset (which is actually completely playable) is entirely free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on August 04, 2017, 09:47:01 am

Is Stars Without Numbers that game where you can die during character creation?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 04, 2017, 11:06:33 am

You're likely thinking of Traveller, which I'm pretty sure Spoony mentioned.  I think it was in his video on the first version of psionics in DND, where it was also possible to die/be a vegetable if you chose to roll for psionic talent and got unlucky.

Our Vampire the Requiem game is still going well.  We've been pretty loyal to local Invictus, so I haven't had tavern-burning stories to tell.  We have been up to pretty heinous stuff, but it's more edge than fun.

However, we did manage to bring down an elder gangrel, "leader" of the local Carthians (an anarcho-egalitarian faction.  Our GM has them pretty similar to Anarchs in the VtM video game).  Basically we captured Nines Rodriguez.  It was pretty clutch - he had a massive vitae pool, spent many a round, and basically had Senator Anderson's bio-armor.  VITAE, SON!

Fortunately we were "supporting" (using as chaff) the local Lancea Sanctum.  We had found some super-heretical intel which made them go full DEUS VULT on the Carthians for us.  Yay manipulation!  (The intel was even real, sorta).  These crazed zealots charged in with torches, using faith-rituals to keep from frenzying from the fire.  They also used some strange voodoo on the elder, but mostly they just absorbed his claws with their faces as he wore them down.

We eventually had to order our ghoul companions forward as well, but fortunately this nutjob was a humanitarian (silly Carthians).  He merely KO'd our humans, and used his animalism to *steal* my cat 3:

The deciding moment was when he finally ran out of vitae.  Using a GM-created tier of Animalism similar to 5, he attempted to send his starving beast into *me*.  My character normally uses animalism 5 to quell/incite vampiric beasts, but I wouldn't have had any chance against an Elder's.  My blood potency is freakin 2 (intentionally almost nothing) which is most of the "saving throw".  Well...  He flubbed the roll, and I was pretty lucky, getting a tie result.  Defender wins ties.  Eleanor will be silently gloating about this for many nights :3

So basically he entered a mindless hunger-frenzy and starting trying to nom his allies.  This was particularly amusing since, as a silly exaggeration of anarchism/socialism, they'd been kinda giving him all the chores and no respect.  Lazy bums.  Without vitae, his crazy blood-shielding dissipated, and my character spent her last willpower to stake him with an arrow.

There's all sorts of other stuff going on, but that's basically the "we slew an adult dragon" moment I'd say.  The Prince has a surprise "reward" for us next session, our covert activities are *also* proceeding very well, and we've got some social hooks lined up as our vampires and ghouls recuperate.
Edit:  Well I guess we did bomb the heck out of a hospital, but it was abandoned/haunted :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 04, 2017, 11:06:44 am

Quote from: scriver on August 04, 2017, 09:47:01 am

Is Stars Without Numbers that game where you can die during character creation?

You're thinking of classic Traveler.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Sirus on August 04, 2017, 04:06:23 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on August 03, 2017, 10:11:11 pm

The player's guide for the new Pathfinder Adventure Path is up, if anyone's interested.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9uir?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Ruins-of-Azlant-Players-Guide

Spoiler: They're pretty up front about what it's about. (click to show/hide)

(http://i.imgur.com/wFNKEPG.png)

I'm more excited for Starfinder. There's also a new miniature kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1513061270/reaper-miniatures-bones-4-mr-bones-epic-adventure) from Reaper.

Those Reaper minis looks pretty sweet. How've they been on delivering projects previously?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 04, 2017, 04:47:18 pm

Quote from: scriver on August 04, 2017, 09:47:01 am

Is Stars Without Numbers that game where you can die during character creation?

Nah, that's Traveler. SWN takes a bit of inspiration from Traveler, but fortunately not its byzantine and hostile character creation process (even if you use the optional lifepath mechanics from Sandbox they're a lot friendlier than Traveler's own bits). You don't even need an auxiliary flowchart to figure out what you need to do!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Yoink on August 04, 2017, 06:23:45 pm

Quote from: Yoink on August 01, 2017, 05:17:03 am

What's Absalom like this time of year?

The reason I'm asking is, there's this free entry, casual Pathfinder game happening in this town at the comic store today, that I was thinking of going to, and it's apparently based in this Absalom place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on August 04, 2017, 08:56:12 pm

Quote from: Yoink on August 04, 2017, 06:23:45 pm

Quote from: Yoink on August 01, 2017, 05:17:03 am

What's Absalom like this time of year?

The reason I'm asking is, there's this free entry, casual Pathfinder game happening in this town at the comic store today, that I was thinking of going to, and it's apparently based in this Absalom place.

Well, it's like a more mundane, softer-edged Sigil or Rock of Bral (in the sense that it's big and neutral and relatively open), but it's also got that labyrinth that turns you into a god in the middle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 04, 2017, 09:24:51 pm

Quote from: Sirus on August 04, 2017, 04:06:23 pm

Quote from: BlackFlyme on August 03, 2017, 10:11:11 pm

-snip-

Those Reaper minis looks pretty sweet. How've they been on delivering projects previously?

Last one had their preferred shipping company going out of business, delaying my delivery by damn near a year. Though that was my only experience with Reaper, so I'm not sure if the first two Kickstarters had that issue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on August 05, 2017, 12:32:25 am

Quote from: Trekkin on August 04, 2017, 08:56:12 pm

Quote from: Yoink on August 04, 2017, 06:23:45 pm

Quote from: Yoink on August 01, 2017, 05:17:03 am

What's Absalom like this time of year?

The reason I'm asking is, there's this free entry, casual Pathfinder game happening in this town at the comic store today, that I was thinking of going to, and it's apparently based in this Absalom place.

Well, it's like a more mundane, softer-edged Sigil or Rock of Bral (in the sense that it's big and neutral and relatively open), but it's also got that labyrinth that turns you into a god in the middle.

If you're familiar with the Forgotten Realms, basically take Waterdeep, slap a new name on it and call it a day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on August 05, 2017, 07:21:49 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 04, 2017, 11:06:33 am

You're likely thinking of Traveller

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on August 04, 2017, 11:06:44 am

Quote from: scriver on August 04, 2017, 09:47:01 am

Is Stars Without Numbers that game where you can die during character creation?

You're thinking of classic Traveler.

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 04, 2017, 04:47:18 pm

Quote from: scriver on August 04, 2017, 09:47:01 am

Is Stars Without Numbers that game where you can die during character creation?

Nah, that's Traveler. SWN takes a bit of inspiration from Traveler, but fortunately not its byzantine and hostile character creation process (even if you use the optional lifepath mechanics from Sandbox they're a lot friendlier than Traveler's own bits). You don't even need an auxiliary flowchart to figure out what you need to do!

Oh. I see.

There's something inherently attractive to me about a game where you can die before you even begin playing. Even if I know that would be annoying as fuck if I actually was making a character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 05, 2017, 07:32:55 am

Quote from: scriver on August 05, 2017, 07:21:49 am

Oh. I see.

There's something inherently attractive to me about a game where you can die before you even begin playing. Even if I know that would be annoying as fuck if I actually was making a character.

You can have fun with Traveler's character creation in a way most systems don't support - I did a character for it in, I think, some kind of unreleased beta variant and he ended up being a college dance major dropout who became a secret operative with two tours of duty, the first earning him commendations and the second earning him a dismissal from field operations, followed by two tours in a desk job that broke him enough to drive him to adventuring again as a half-mad, tough but otherwise mostly useless adventurer.

The game then proceeded to not go anywhere at all before dying, but it was a novel if grueling bit of fun to get to that point to begin with.

SWN on the other hand is aimed to help you realize a character concept within about 15 minutes to half an hour and save the adventuring for the actual game, which is better for playability but skips out on some of the storytelling that Traveler's character creation attempts to offer in its random, cruel and arbitrary kind of way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on August 05, 2017, 04:23:40 pm

If you want, it's still possible to buy Classic Traveller (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/4/Game-Designers-Workshop-GDW/subcategory/21_4767/Classic-Traveller) (I actually picked the basic rules for free at one point, but it seems like that offer is no longer available).

If you want a free game where you can die, there's always deadEarth (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/downloads-games/deadearth-resources/), though I make no guarantees about actually being able to play the character you make.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 05, 2017, 09:07:02 pm

Later versions of Traveler nerfed character gen's deadliness.  In the mongoose Traveler copy I have worst that can happen is you get maimed and lose a limb or something, but not quite outright death.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2017, 09:59:42 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on August 05, 2017, 09:07:02 pm

Later versions of Traveler nerfed character gen's deadliness.  In the mongoose Traveler copy I have worst that can happen is you get maimed and lose a limb or something, but not quite outright death.

This is ignoring that there is a very good chance you will probably end up with a character you won't want :P

Makes me think the future is rather dystopian

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Tawa on August 05, 2017, 11:54:50 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on August 05, 2017, 04:23:40 pm

If you want, it's still possible to buy Classic Traveller (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/4/Game-Designers-Workshop-GDW/subcategory/21_4767/Classic-Traveller) (I actually picked the basic rules for free at one point, but it seems like that offer is no longer available).

If you want a free game where you can die, there's always deadEarth (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/downloads-games/deadearth-resources/), though I make no guarantees about actually being able to play the character you make.

I rolled up 3 deadEarth characters once. I think one was a roboticist who had a 33% chance of dying daily due to the common cold, one died in some incredibly mundane way, and one was a middle-aged woman made of stone who hacked people to bits with dual swords.

I wonder if I'm still legally barred from rolling up more...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 06, 2017, 12:18:53 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 05, 2017, 09:59:42 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on August 05, 2017, 09:07:02 pm

Later versions of Traveler nerfed character gen's deadliness.  In the mongoose Traveler copy I have worst that can happen is you get maimed and lose a limb or something, but not quite outright death.

This is ignoring that there is a very good chance you will probably end up with a character you won't want :P

Makes me think the future is rather dystopian

Random is random

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 06, 2017, 05:11:46 am

Quote from: Tawa on August 05, 2017, 11:54:50 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on August 05, 2017, 04:23:40 pm

If you want, it's still possible to buy Classic Traveller (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/4/Game-Designers-Workshop-GDW/subcategory/21_4767/Classic-Traveller) (I actually picked the basic rules for free at one point, but it seems like that offer is no longer available).

If you want a free game where you can die, there's always deadEarth (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/downloads-games/deadearth-resources/), though I make no guarantees about actually being able to play the character you make.

I rolled up 3 deadEarth characters once. I think one was a roboticist who had a 33% chance of dying daily due to the common cold, one died in some incredibly mundane way, and one was a middle-aged woman made of stone who hacked people to bits with dual swords.

I wonder if I'm still legally barred from rolling up more...

Don't worry, the original creator of deadEarth eventually showed up in the rpgnet thread and clarified that the three character limit is per campaign

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neonivek on August 06, 2017, 05:27:03 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on August 06, 2017, 12:18:53 am

Quote from: Neonivek on August 05, 2017, 09:59:42 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on August 05, 2017, 09:07:02 pm

Later versions of Traveler nerfed character gen's deadliness.  In the mongoose Traveler copy I have worst that can happen is you get maimed and lose a limb or something, but not quite outright death.

This is ignoring that there is a very good chance you will probably end up with a character you won't want :P

Makes me think the future is rather dystopian

Random is random

In all fairness I believe the rules weren't intended that you do one life and then use the result no matter what (though fully intending that, that is an option).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 10, 2017, 07:30:53 pm

Hehe, yesterday's session was fun.
I was stone sober all night (emphasis on was) and our GM was unfortunately very ill ):  Turns out "day"-quil still makes you sleepy as hell...

We did get some decent business done, though.  Acquired the reward from the Invictus Prince.  It was vitae (vampire blood) enchanted with Invictus (fascist) magicks.  After a period of unsightly seizures, we awoke with enhanced mental capacities...  And thicker vitae.

The latter being a bit of a problem, as my character feeds on animals.  Mostly rats, emphasizing the "animalism" discipline of Ventrue to a strange degree.  My char-sheet is literally "CatLady".
And her vitae is now too thick to feed on animals.  ...That's fine, though.  A long time coming, perhaps.  Did I mention she has 2/10 humanity, and specializes in socializing with the beasts which dwell within vampires?

Anyway!  Before our GM fell asleep, my character did manage to prepare an "admissions application".  She collected a literal murder of crows to sing, as a box of 9 [nom] 8 kittens "sing"... her awful poetry.  The guild of vampiric animal-handlers will certainly be impressed~

My willful ghoul, who I taught Dominate 1 despite significant warnings, seemed very concerned about the kittens.  I got bored of her and left the room.  This is an (yet another) action with no downside nor chance of repercussion!

Meanwhile my fellow coterie members respectively practiced pugilism in the basement, and constructed a mind-boggling amount of intricately customized plastic explosives.  what could go wroooong? :D  (guess which used to be the wizard in our DND 3.5)

Then our GM conked out, and the pugilist-player took over for a ghoul sidestory.  I probably shouldn't go into too much detail, heh.  Imagine "Harold and Kumar go to McDonald's, Wendy's, McDonalds, Burger King NO WAIT McDonalds" except that they're also running codes for the Great Game and heavily dosed on Irrigo (Literally, we ran codes for groups we don't know at all, and they dosed our drugs with memory-erasing drugs).

Naturally, we rolled absurdly well for that side-venture.  We ended up remembering more of it than we should have, and carrying a suitcase stuffed full of Zimbabwe dollars.  Also a surprising amount of left over drugs.  (There was also elder vitae but we drank it all due to munchies)
This was declared canon BTW

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on August 11, 2017, 01:12:24 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 10, 2017, 07:30:53 pm

Carrying a suitcase stuffed full of Zimbabwe dollars.

So about 50 bucks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 12, 2017, 01:42:11 am

Yes
A nice thing about the "resource" system in World of Darkness is that we don't have to actually track currency, heh.  "Being able to afford things" is just another merit (like a DND feat, but ranked from 1 to 5), which is justified via downtime activities or general wealth.

The tradeoff is that someone with 1/5 "resources" could theoretically buy a billion flashlights, since they "cost" 1 (or 0?) resource dots.  But WoD kinda encourages the GM to exercise rule 0.  Really, it hasn't been a problem for our group...  With a lack of hard rules, we apparently default to roleplaying in this case.

Naturally we choose the best weapons and armor our resources can buy, but...  turns out one gun is almost as lethal as another, unless you get into the absurdly pricey range (and merit "dots" cost exponentially more XP).  And the fancy stuff requires story-justification, or Streetwise/contacts.

tldr;  It really doesn't matter that the guest GM gave our ghouls a bunch of cash.  It maybe could have justified us spending XP to upgrade their resources, if it wasn't Zimbabwe dollars :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on August 13, 2017, 08:41:06 pm

Picking rocks is an excellent opportunity to plan your adventure. Hours of time ridding back and forth across a field with nothing to do but think? (and stop every little bit to pick up a rock of course, but that requires very little thought) You can get all kinds of planning done that way.

For example I planned the final encounter of the current dungeon in Plane of Elements yesterday, and I even got a really cool idea for an adventure to come 2-3 other adventures after that...

In related news: Play by post is really interesting in that you can run an adventure with only a tiny bit of prior planning. You need a basic direction so the story won't "get lost" but otherwise you can just make stuff up as you go, after all the players won't notice if you take a few hours to design a combat encounter right as they blunder into it instead of having it ready ahead of time... Lazy, but it works. Obviously I still need to have a rough plan ahead of time, or things could seem incoherent.

I've been reading some stuff about running games, and wow. I suck. Less now than before, but the first few encounters in Plane of Elements were really bad. Lots of poor/unclear descriptions among other things... Oh well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on August 13, 2017, 09:23:21 pm

I have been recently rather taken with a... thing in Fantasy in general, but D&D- Especially Forgotten Realms- is easily my favorite example of it; Drow.

Drow!

DROOOOWWWWWWW

Prettyboy charcoal-skinned evil(ish) elves with white hair and red eyes that KICK ASS

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 13, 2017, 09:25:36 pm

Quote

Prettyboy charcoal-skinned evil(ish) elves with white hair and red eyes that KICK ASS

Yessss
*Unironically likes Drizzt*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on August 13, 2017, 09:31:22 pm

man not even drizzt just drow in general are SO COOL n CUTE n aAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 13, 2017, 09:34:06 pm

...
|:
...
THEY ARE THOUGH :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 13, 2017, 10:07:29 pm

And then they poison you, or stab you, or enslave you for their questionable purposes (not the potentially fun ones either).

But yes, Drow are srsly hot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 13, 2017, 10:36:15 pm

>not orcs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on August 13, 2017, 10:41:52 pm

^{_{what about the humans
we're hot too}}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 13, 2017, 10:47:43 pm

You're not, though.
You're just abundantly available because your fecund as all fuck, no pun intended.
Uh, no offense.  That was just something I said due to my alien sociology.  What?  In your mud-thatch hovel I mean home?  Well okay I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Avarice on August 14, 2017, 01:22:04 am

Drow are shit.
The real race that is sex incarnate is quite clearly svirfneblin

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 14, 2017, 01:31:12 am

that's not even funny ironically

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Sirus on August 14, 2017, 10:52:21 am

I dunno, I got a chuckle out of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on August 14, 2017, 11:20:29 am

Uh, hello? Where's the Mongrelfolk love? You're half Human, half Drow, half Halfing, half Orc, half Dwarf, half a lot of other things. It's the best of all the worlds.

Spoiler: Just look at those... eyes? (click to show/hide)

(https://nerdarchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mongrelfolk-by-Eric-Polak-300x287.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neonivek on August 14, 2017, 11:31:27 am

Weren't the Mongrelfolk altered to be... like... Literal half-human half-every animal?

----

Finally got my hands on Dusk City Outlaws da full version. Not THAT excited to be honest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 14, 2017, 11:37:14 am

Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on August 14, 2017, 11:20:29 am

Uh, hello? Where's the Mongrelfolk love? You're half Human, half Drow, half Halfing, half Orc, half Dwarf, half a lot of other things. It's the best of all the worlds.

The thing you have to love about D&D Mongrelfolk is that somewhere along the course of writing their Races of Destiny profile the writers seem to have realized that the core concept of the race they're writing (low intelligence, super low charisma, high con, racial mixing gone crazy at the lowest rungs of society you guys!) is amazingly racist and tried to turn it around in the fiction to make them adaptable, indistinguishable and generally sensible folk... while leaving those same stats in place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 14, 2017, 11:41:44 am

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Mongrelman.JPG/200px-Mongrelman.JPG)

1e mongrelfolk were better

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 14, 2017, 12:58:49 pm

Pathfinder session brought to a screaming halt: I cast Zone of Truth in order to facilitate an interrogation. One of the party is throwing insults at the prisoner. The prisoner uses Command to compel the party member to retract the insult.

We then spent about fifteen minutes talking about minutiae of rules to try and figure out which spell takes precedence.

Edit: Dammit! When she refused to eat, I Commanded her to eat (for poetic justice kicks). Unfortunately, she made the will save.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 14, 2017, 01:03:38 pm

Well, first off, Command can't be used like that according to the rules. :P

What did you decide, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 14, 2017, 01:05:03 pm

The rules are somewhat ambiguous. Our DM interprets it as you may choose from that list, but not you must.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 14, 2017, 01:08:19 pm

No, like, what did you decide from the Zone of Truth vs Command argument.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 14, 2017, 01:11:16 pm

Oh, right. We ended up with a half-hearted, evasive retraction. If that hadn't been possible, Command would have failed because Zone of Truth prevented her from taking the action.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 14, 2017, 08:04:31 pm

What was the word of command used by the prisoner? Retract? Apologise?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2017, 11:35:48 pm

Inquiring minds want to know--  Did the prisoner demand that she say she was sorry (when in fact, she was certainly not sorry for saying it at all-- thus prevented from making the statement by zone of truth), or did the prisoner command that she do something else?

Also, if Command works in that interrogation setting, why blow it on a petty insult, instead of, you know "Let me go and forget you ever saw me." or something similar?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neonivek on August 14, 2017, 11:42:20 pm

WOW! There might be no way to share the rules for Dusk City Outlaws except to go by the honor system.

No wait... Google Doc SEEMS like it works...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 14, 2017, 11:53:40 pm

The exact command was "take that back". Possibly not exactly in line with what the rules say, but we tend to play a little bit fast and loose with them if it makes the flavour more interesting.

And no, the missed opportunity was not lost on us. In her defence, she was a religious fanatic having her god insulted, and "untie me" or whatever wouldn't have worked. The rest of the party would have stepped in, especially since we identified the spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Avarice on August 15, 2017, 02:11:40 am

When my crew and I get stuck on essentially a time sink like you had Arx I get my best player to look it up while I make everyone drink and wing the rules for the sake of time and fun.
We used to pour over tomes for 5 seconds of knowledge now we just shoot from the hip.

How was the interrogation victim able to cast a spell anyway?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 15, 2017, 03:16:50 am

Verbal component only, she was ungagged to answer questions. We expected this, but she made the concentration check to cope with being backhanded while casting.

Edit: also, I discovered ioun stones yesterday. They're pretty impressive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 15, 2017, 05:10:18 am

Quote from: wierd on August 14, 2017, 11:35:48 pm

Also, if Command works in that interrogation setting, why blow it on a petty insult, instead of, you know "Let me go and forget you ever saw me." or something similar?

I dont know about most editions, but Command only works for single-word orders in D&D 5E

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 15, 2017, 05:11:55 am

(https://i.gyazo.com/2e902fdeb928f07e4c7688b3b7408c08.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on August 15, 2017, 06:09:24 am

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on August 15, 2017, 05:10:18 am

I dont know about most editions, but Command only works for single-word orders in D&D 5E

It's the same in 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm) and Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command), which have far more boring interpretations of the Command spell than 5E's explicit "you can use other single-word commands as well" bit.

I have no idea why a Zone of Truth would prevent you from casting Command though. There's no lie or obfuscation involved, you're just telling someone "apologize".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on August 15, 2017, 06:14:14 am

How sad..

A single greater command to "Die" would be quite epic I think... 

Still, they winged the rules, and permitted a multiword command, "Take that back!", which would mean "Let me go and forget I was here" is still on the table, so still a waste of comedic gold!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 15, 2017, 07:15:15 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on August 15, 2017, 06:09:24 am

I have no idea why a Zone of Truth would prevent you from casting Command though. There's no lie or obfuscation involved, you're just telling someone "apologize".

The complication wasn't the Command, it was that the Zone prevented the target from trivially obeying the command, which gave us a momentary pause on which compulsion was greater.

Also, "let me go and forget this happened" is far more complex. Command allows you to compel a creature to take essentially a single, fairly simple, action ("apologise", if you want to make it a single word, here). The way we play, "release me" might pass muster, but "forget this happened" is a much, much higher level magic. And if you did let it through, it would expire after one round (so about thirty seconds tops) or as soon as someone mentioned the prisoner (which would prevent you forgetting and void the compulsion).

Since Command is a single target spell, there was no real way for her to use it to escape. Also, you know, in flavour it makes sense that she was actually more enraged by us smack talking her god than by being tied up. We generally play our characters to the setting, not purely for optimisation, which is why we end up with things like two ranged characters dungeon delving or an undead hunter surrounded by technology.

Strictly optimal play gets boring after about two sessions, in my experience.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Digital Hellhound on August 15, 2017, 07:38:57 am

Any ideas on demonic temptation-type scenarios? I'm having a baddie being sent from Hell to bring in one of the PCs (there's a bunch of backstory here about bets between Hell and Heaven and such) in my Mutants and Masterminds campaign, and he's holding a series of wicked tests to try to get the PC to damn himself.

I've got one occasion where he appears in the PC's home with one of their old enemies captive. She's been plotting her vengeance and telling the press/lawyers/police all kinds of terrible things about the PC to ruin his reputation and get him charged (most of it is even true!). This is a basic 'save yourself by doing a bad thing' scenario; the baddie will tell the PC to kill her to stop her from wrecking his reputation.

Then another where the baddie offers all the PCs something (power, truth, taking away bad haunting memories, etc.)... in exchange for them standing aside and not even trying to stop a bad guy from killing some innocents.

Both of these scenarios are crooked, anyway - if/when the PC refuses, bad things happen anyway. For example, in the first he's already called the police, who'll find the poor villain bound and gagged and set to be murdered in the PC's apartment, requiring some good explainin' or hidin' the body to get through.

Any ideas on other offers/temptations/scenarios to throw in? Can be subtle, can be obvious. The end goal is to make the PC(s) choose to do evil things and damn themselves. Tricking them into such choices counts as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Avarice on August 15, 2017, 07:57:00 am

Give them power then take it away.
I had a player who died too much, generally playing stupid or out of character so I had the deity they revived curse him to constantly reincarnate. His character eventually became a walking skeleton and he was shunned from society and became a enemy in the campaign after sucking up the rest of the gods mojo.
The player was fine with this and we discussed it often with him getting bored of characters quickly.
I design my campaigns by putting encounters on the map and doing a half assed job to connect it to a lore. Usually each town has one main quest and a few shit ones.
They took the bait for the dead god quest and the rogue had let himself become trapped when he put the deity ring on.
Making him roll will saves every play through to break him, so when his cha died he got up a day later as the party was burying him.
Im a sucker for god interfering campaigns

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on August 16, 2017, 10:47:17 pm

Plane of Elements (https://sites.google.com/site/planeofelements/home) (my custom setting and rule set) now has a super crappy website of it's very own!

Honestly it is simply a place to put the rules and setting document where the links will work and the formatting won't be totally screwed. Currently it doesn't even try to be a "real" site.

Anyway, I am just finishing v2 of said rules, so this is a draft version of v2.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 18, 2017, 12:45:17 am

Starfinder's (http://paizo.com/store/starfinder) available now. For those out of the know, it's Pathfinder in s^paaace.

It's a bit early to tell how it be, but everyone's complaining about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on August 18, 2017, 03:57:53 am

Yeah, it's not great. For one thing, they've added even more numbers into Pathfinder; you have Stamina Points now as well as HP, and Armor Class is two numbers. Hero Points are Resolve Points now. The rest of the rules are almost a carbon copy of Pathfinder, although weight is now the more abstract 'bulk'. if you aren't tired of race-class-and-level d20 yet, it might be okay. Oh, there are themes now, which are just templates all over again with some situational and mostly bad abilities at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

The races are exactly what you'd expect: robots, people, bugs, Gambian pouched rats (no kidding, they have cheek pouches as an ability) , lizards, and telepaths who can be either space elves or space dwarves. The classes are kind of boring too: we've got a fighter, a soulknife, a favored soul, a techno-sorcerer, rogue, a mechanic pet class that's not dissimilar to a ranger, and a bard. Of note: they do give you the option to ignore themes, go "Themeless", and just put a stat point wherever you like. Alignment is the same 3x3 grid we've been arguing over forever.

I don't think they were really trying with the languages. There's Dwarven and Ignan and so forth in there. Humans are exactly as they are in Pathfinder. Their art shows them smirking a lot. The classes are built like Paizo classes: there's a whole lot of the usual picking an ability from a list that's tiered by level, with a capstone at 20th to theoretically discourage multi-classing. Annoyingly, they've gone with symbols rather than words to indicate which abilities are mind-effecting and so on.

The capstones are all over the place, as ever. The mystic clerics get a free miracle once a week, for example, while the rogues get to roll two dice on skill checks and take the higher result. Fighters get a save-or-die, but they have to spend a hero point to use it. Sorcerers, on the other hand, can spend two hero points to cast wish.

Archetypes are reworked slightly; they're all indpendent of class, and you lose class features depending on your class (which also means they're mutually exclusive by level). Skills and feats are mostly the same. Paizo's toothy little bobblehead goblins are here too, this time in fishbowl helmets with goofy looking ray guns. The equipment has a lot of "sciency" words slapped on it. Magic weapons are now weapon fusions, for example. Everything is still color-coded for your convenience. Harrow decks are digital now.

Honestly, if you really liked the Iron Gods adventure path -- and I mean really liked it -- this is just that writ large. It's kind of boring and predictable in that regard, and the science fiction coating over the high fantasy is tissue thin. This is space opera so fantastic it makes Star Wars look grounded. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 18, 2017, 03:37:59 pm

There are a lot of good changes. Questionable ones too. Two steps forward, one step back, I guess.

Lots of merging of skills. No-one stuck with a paltry 2 per level, and many classes get to choose a skill or two to become class skills. Themes give a class skill as well.

Anyone with ranks in the right skills can disable traps now. It's no longer restricted to certain classes.

That said, monster creation is basically just 'slap shit together, it doesn't need to make sense'. More math is focused on the creature's CR than any other facet. Feats aren't displayed either. Makes customizing monsters more difficult.

DCs can be absurd. A specialized character going at a CR-appropriate challenge may only have a 50-50 chance of success compared to a non-specialized character, or so the theorycrafters say. Some DCs scale off of things like CR or item level, such as Piloting using the ship's Item Level, leading to end-game DCs being 70+

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on August 18, 2017, 06:17:15 pm

Hm. Might look into that, I dig space RPGs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 18, 2017, 08:42:53 pm

:3

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on August 18, 2017, 11:43:18 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on August 18, 2017, 06:17:15 pm

Hm. Might look into that, I dig space RPGs.

That's a good word for it. It's not science fiction by any stretch; it is literally a fantasy RPG in space. Maybe people will like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 19, 2017, 12:36:23 am

Its still no spelljammer I tell you hwat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on August 19, 2017, 12:49:40 am

Quote from: Trekkin on August 18, 2017, 11:43:18 pm

It's not science fiction by any stretch; it is literally a fantasy RPG in space. Maybe people will like that.

You mean like Spelljammer-
Frick, ninja'd!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on August 19, 2017, 01:53:29 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 19, 2017, 12:49:40 am

Quote from: Trekkin on August 18, 2017, 11:43:18 pm

It's not science fiction by any stretch; it is literally a fantasy RPG in space. Maybe people will like that.

You mean like Spelljammer-
Frick, ninja'd!

Now that you mention it, ditching all the tissue-thin chrome veneer and just using Starfinder to run Spelljammer is a really good idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 19, 2017, 03:34:53 am

Quote from: Trekkin on August 18, 2017, 03:57:53 am

Iron Gods adventure path

This reminds me - my group is currently playing through this path (pls not spoil), and parts of it are hilarious because most of us have quite a lot of technical background. Thus we end up with the particle phycisist DM trying vainly for a moment to explain something that's clearly a nuclear reactor in a non-meta way, to a party that includes at least two other people with some nuclear physics background.

Also the moments where the DM starts reading a description and falters half way through because something makes no sense at all in the faux-scientific backdrop. As they say, every time you apply real-world physics to DnD, a catgirl dies... which is why she has DM'd a campaign nicknamed "Killling Catgirls" before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on August 19, 2017, 03:59:42 am

Kingmaker of Starry Skies when?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on August 19, 2017, 08:26:26 pm

Throwing myself into the "not a fan" faction for Starfinder.

No dwarves, elves, or other standard fantasy fare at launch for player races. Instead, we specifically see a very strong focus on Paizo IP races. This is despite the lore ostensibly occurring within the same universe as the Pathfinder series.

Seems to me it's Paizo's attempt to break away from the Pathfinder series and sell their own trademarked IP with only a tangential link to their original material. Given I was only here for the fantasy RPG, it's of little attraction to my tastes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on August 19, 2017, 09:26:47 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on August 19, 2017, 08:26:26 pm

No dwarves, elves, or other standard fantasy fare at launch for player races. Instead, we specifically see a very strong focus on Paizo IP races. This is despite the lore ostensibly occurring within the same universe as the Pathfinder series.

I'm not a fan either, but there are some Pathfinder core races in the core book. Page 506+, in the bit about making Starfinder work with Pathfinder.

I have no doubt they will receive zero additional content for precisely the reasons you stated, but they are there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on August 28, 2017, 03:54:20 pm

Let us set the scene.

It is soon after nightfall in the small farming town of Alnswick. Few windows are lit, and nobody is about on the street. Outside the tavern a rusted sign swings slightly in the breeze, barely legible in the half-light as reading "The best cocoa in Golarion". Only silence comes from inside,

Into this sombre setting stumbles an unlikely group of adventurers, like the heroes of countless stories before. United only by their shared desire for the bounty on information from Alnswick, they peer about them into the darkness.

Ithariel, elven prince, has taken the lead. He is unmatched with a dueling sword, and he has never been known to tell a lie. Flanking him are Gurga Trollarms and Grozen Hookblade, half-bloods that earned names for themselves in combat. Gurga is a half-giant, towering over her comrades and wielding a greataxe to match. Grozen is a half-orc, unassuming but for his scars and the faintly glowing glaive he carries - the Hookblade.

Trailing them are an ever-less likely bunch. Archibald, an enigmatic, completely hairless man in scorched robes. Cheeky Kevin, a tracker with a pair of deadly bush knives, a strange accent, and a mercurial personality. And finally Hammond, young, unassuming, covered in dirt.

Approaching the tavern, Ithariel confidently knocks and calls cheerfully, "Hello! Anyone there?"

Met with no response, he opens the door and the group files in. As he enters, a surly man with a heavy build stands from behind the bar.

"What'd'you want?"

With which the party begins trying to negotiate rooms and cocoa. But the barkeep is unhelpful, and only yields to go prepare some food and cocoa after extensive badgering and Ithariel flashing a few coins. In the interim he dispatches his assistant, a wan young man, to show Archibald and Kevin around the dormitory upstairs. Ithariel goes with, but returns quickly. Kevin and Archibald immediately turn in.

Downstairs, the barkeep has introduced himself as Big Sean and served two mugs of rancid cocoa, asking a gold piece for each. Grozen takes one sniff of his mug, and rejoins that if Sean paid him a gold piece he might drink it. Gurga doesn't even bother with her mug. Hammond has seated himself at a table off to one side.

As Ithariel returns to this rather one-sided merriment, Archibald utters a cry upstairs. Within moments, weapons are drawn and warriors have dashed up the stairs, discovering that a crook has emerged from a concealed passage and attempted to sap Archie.

This, reader, is where the story grows stranger (and grimmer) ((and it becomes more apparent that we loosed our inner munchkins and then played the characters to the hilt)).

As blows are exchanged, Hammond arrives and begins to writhe and grow. Within moments, a creature like bear fills half the room and begins mauling the skulker. Drawn by the noise, robed figures emerge from the passageway.

The melee grows wilder, with Ithariel vaulting the furniture to blind a figure with his robe and go to run him through. As Grozen arrives, he deftly reaches past Ithariel and relieves the would-be reinforcer of his limbs. Kevin goes to work with his knives, and within moments the room is silent except for the panting of the druid.

Ithariel sets off down the passage way and discovers a trapdoor. Dropping down, he finds himself in the basement; and more importantly, the midst of a cult of sorts, and shouts a warning to this effect. Rather than risk the passageway, Hammond tears apart the floor and plunges down amongst the enemy. Shortly after, warriors are dropping like flies through the hole, landing on friend and foe alike. Gurga uses Hammond as a landing pad, stunning him, but he fights on.

As Ithariel goes to join the battle, two immense wasps fly out from behind him. Immediately, he strikes at one, scarring its carapace. It flies by, but strays into reach of Grozen's blade and is cut out of the air in pieces. The other describes a circuit of the room, unsettling those nearby with noxious fumes, but never quite within a sword's length.

Now as it seems things cannot grow more chaotic, Archibald begins screaming and flames stream from him. A pillar of fire erupts in the centre of the basement, throwing cultists like ragdolls and setting the building alight. The flames and the blades of the cultists overwhelm Hammond the Hamster, and he blacks out. However, it takes Gurga only a moment to strike down the last of the cultists.

Grozen takes the opportunity to feed a healing elixir to Hammond as a door opens and a wolf, slavering and sprouting obscene growths, bounds past Ithariel. Soon he is engaged in a pitched battle with another set of cultists and the wolf, until Gurga and Archibald put a swift end to it with mighty axes blows and another immense blast of flame.

The optimistic would believe that this was the end of the saga. But no! Covered by the sound of the kineticist's fires, Big Sean himself enters and charges down Grozen (rarely a wise move). But with an unnatural resilience, his skin deflects the Hookblade and he crashes into the half-orc, sending him reeling into Archibald. A moment later, Grozen responds with brutal hacking chops, causing writhing growths to sprout from Sean's shoulders where he strikes.

Alas for Sean, before he has a chance to do anything more Gurga unseams him from nave to chaps in a single mighty blow, leaving him split like like a troublesome log.

As the tavern begins to collapse around them, the misfits seize anything they can that looks like it may be of use and flee. Kevin hurls himself out of a window, landing deftly on his feet. Archibald follows him, lifted on gouts of flame.

As Grozen and Hammond busy themselves with picking up an unconscious cultist and some bones, respectively, Ithariel unlocks a passagway back onto the ground floor. It quickly becomes a race to see who can leave the fastest and most impressively, with Gurga leaving first by a narrow margin while Grozen hurdles the bar, carrying the cultist. Ithariel runs along the table tops, unfortunately setting himself alight in the process. Hammond follows less dramatically, but more safely.

Within seconds of leaving, the tavern collapses behind the party. And yes, the DM was rolling damage to it every turn.

---

I doubt that was particularly readable, but for whatever reason I wanted to write it out. We've been playing a short campaign with a different DM while our usual DM runs a convention, and it's featured some very silly characters played very straight. Like the Elven Prince Ithariel, who is actually a human with an incredible Bluff check that just convinces everyone he meets he is an elven prince. He regularly swears by the elvish gods. Or Cheeky Kevin, who is definitely not an Australian. Deeefinitely not. Or Gurga, who is... not very bright and speaks only in fragments. All the time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 28, 2017, 03:55:10 pm

I've officially started playing D&D, so I guess I should post here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on August 29, 2017, 12:18:31 pm

I'm just going to leave this (http://www.filmreroll.com/) here.

Listening to the podcast, you'd be hard pressed to catch what system they're using unless you happen to catch a reference to "Gizmo" now and then. The about page, however, says they use GURPS, one of my favorites.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 03, 2017, 03:52:12 pm

Last session was something. Not really the session ; we completed a dungeon, where the only notable thing was that the Hunter used Wild Empathy to calm an elasmosaurus guarding an underwater treasure.

DM's brother was pissed about something, and refused to play with us. But he did spend the entire time blaring his music as loud as it'd go, stomping up and down the stairs, slamming doors, and smashing things off of other things. We were told to just ignore him. A bit concerned that DM and his brother are going to beat the shit out of each other, or worse.

And the previous DM is still insisting that Paizo's a shit company and he ran Giantslayer and Hell's Vengeance books to the letter. It's been months, just fucking come clean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Sirus on September 03, 2017, 03:54:38 pm

I'm running a kineticist psion in a 3.5 game. Kineticists are supposed to be ranged, energy-damaging, crowd-controlling DPS powerhouses.

Thanks to my insistence on playing as IC as possible, he has done nothing but sneak and bluff his way around. Not a single offensive power used in three sessions :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 03, 2017, 04:04:26 pm

Your GM let you fluff your Rogue as a Kineticist? Nice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 03, 2017, 04:15:03 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on September 03, 2017, 04:04:26 pm

Your GM let you fluff your Rogue as a Kineticist? Nice.

He rolled a 6 total on Move Silently, but this was okay because the door guard was so drunk that he rolled a -4.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Sirus on September 03, 2017, 04:15:54 pm

I thought it was -6. Oh well, you get the picture.

I *did* manage some pretty nice rolls in previous sessions, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on September 04, 2017, 12:08:57 am

So my last D&D session was rather interesting. For a little backstory, the session before, the players had going to investigate this creepy old mansion, since it's something I came up with a few sessions back when they asked a random NPC what the most dangerous place she knew of in the city (I believe they were inquiring about dungeons, but she wasn't the sort to know about that sort of thing, so I came up with something else). So, since I couldn't come up with or find a good haunted house idea, I decided to make it overrun with fey due to having a permanent portal to the Feywild in the attic.

So, after having several encounters with various fey creatures, both combat and non-combat, and learning that the tiefling enchanter that they defeated had been getting magical spell-imbuing drugs for his personality cult from someone on the other side of the portal here, they decided not to go through the portal once they found it, since they realized they didn't really have much reason to do so. Which was probably for the best, since the time warping nature of that realm could have potentially really messed with what they were doing.

Anyway, before they went to the portal, they had encountered a green hag who had set up shop in one of the bedrooms, and they went to she her again before they left. She had introduced herself as something of a buyer and seller of abstract qualities and various bits of information who refused to deal with goods that didn't have some sort of sentimental attachment to the players, several times saying the phrase "I value what you value." (Though when the bard tried to get something by threatening her life, she casually dismissed it, saying he in no way had a claim on her life. If I was more quick-witted, I would have said something like, "there's only one way to take another's life, and then it's in no fit state to be bartered away.")

So the first actual deal she made was with the rogue, who offered up the knowledge of his sister's middle name in exchange for the location of one of the members of the pirate crew that had killed her (part of his backstory). So, after making sure he understood the terms of the deal, knowledge of his sister's middle name was stricken from his memory, and, in return, he received knowledge of the fishing shack where the former pirate was now living.

Next was the fighter, who traded the poetry he had been writing throughout the adventure so far for knowledge of a really nice sword (or something to that effect), since he is a collector of swords. So, after giving up his poetry and any knowledge of its contents, he learned of a sword that had belonged to the first king of a nearby kingdom (Aerishod), that anyone who brought the sword to that kingdom's capital (Hendifel) would have the right to declare themself king, and that the sword was hidden somewhere within the city the party is in (Riverport). Though, because of the way the deal was worded, he didn't get a more exact location.

The last deal was with the wizard, who offered up a spell scroll of gaseous form, and managed to roll well enough to convince the hag that he valued it greatly, and in return got the location of a member of the thieves' guild leader (Sumak Runninglock, a halfling) that the party had been trying to get into contact with for a while now.

Actually, I think before all of this the halfling cleric must have traded something to her for directions to the attic, but I don't remember what, and my notes are unhelpful in this regard. But, as for the rest of the party, the monk and bard didn't make any deals with her, and, despite being the first to deal with her (or maybe because of it), the halfling cleric is rather creeped-out by her.

So, after this, they leave the mansion, mostly to do some shopping. During this time, the fighter went around to ask about the sword, and while he didn't manage to learn about its location, he did learn that the kingship thing was probably true, since it's customary in Aerishod for titles of nobility to be granted to those who have recovered relics of the kingdom. He also learned that the diplomat from Aerishod had recently left Riverport, and that there were rumors that Aerishod was planning to attack the city, since they were without rulership (since the party had basically killed off the city council in the previous adventure (to be fair, they were evil)) and no longer had the magical fear effect that kept nearby nations at bay (which was powered the essence of gods who had been captured by a ritual. The effect had also kept most of the population docile before).

Also during this time, the rogue took the boat they had used to get to the district (since the city exists on multiple islands connected to each other and the mainland by a series of bridges, much like Venice or Tenochtitlan) to the other part of the city where the former pirate's fishing shack was. Failing to trick him into thinking he was another member of the pirate crew (since the rogue has a magic dagger that gives him the form of whichever pirate crewmember he last killed), he just intimidated him into giving him the location of another pirate before killing him and returning to the party.

So then the party went to see Sumak Runninglock where the wizard learned he would be, which was a fancy restaurant. The place was restrictive about who they let in, so first the fighter went in disguised as a member of the assassins' guild that the thieves' guild was/is tentatively allied to. He got some stares and rude remarks, but was better welcomed once he offered to buy everyone drinks.

Meanwhile, the rogue went in the back and, after knocking out a cook who was hauling out trash, went back in and took his place. Then everyone else came in that way after being turned invisible by the bard.

Eventually the invisible people made their way to the private section of the restaurant, where they overheard the thieves' guild leader and other high-ranking members discussing the looming threat of the Aerishod invasion of Riverport, and their plan to ingratiate a certain revolutionist trying to petition democratic ideals to high-ranking members of the city's legitimate guilds (who currently have the most legitimate authority to appoint new city councilmembers) so that they might encourage him to help form a new government more favorable to them, like the one that existed in 19th century Sicily and helped form the Sicilian Mafia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Mafia#Post-feudal_Sicily) (in other words, one where only a few people can vote, so it's easy to promote candidates they favor).

About this time the wizard, who had seated himself at the table dismissed his invisibility by throwing a dinner roll at Sumak (we counted it as an attack; I suggested casting a cantrip instead, but the player was rather set on the idea) and presented documents mentioning a pending hit
on Sumak by the assassins' guild. But, since the party interfered with the assassin's guild before they could try to perform the hit, and since the documents documents bore no signatures or any other identifying marks, Sumak had trouble believing the party.

He finally relented and offered them one way to get the party into his good graces: help the thieves' guild get the revolutionists they were talking about on their side. They would do this by escorting him when goes to meet with high-ranking members of the trade guilds, and along the way some thieves' guild members would fake an attack on him (unfortunately, the players made sure that they'll get to know the people fake-attacking them beforehand, so it's a bit hard for me to fuck with them in that respect).

Things are a little more complicated than they seem, though, since that revolutionist they're supposed to protect also turns out to be the pirate the rogue wants to kill. He has a plan to use his magic dagger to take the revolutionist's place, but can he pull it off?

There's also murmurs in the party that the attempt on Sumak's life was perpetrated not by the assassins' guild, but by one of the high-ranking members of the thieves' guild. Is this just player paranoia, or might it be true?

Tune in next time to find out! (Assuming I remember to do this again)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on September 04, 2017, 10:40:05 am

That was pretty interesting, I hope to read more later :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on September 04, 2017, 03:09:30 pm

Oh, hey, thanks!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 09, 2017, 03:25:18 pm

Second session of my group has wrapped, we were missing a person but it went really well! We're apparently playing a very old AD&D campaign that's been reiterated upon in homebrew for 5th edition. Small farming town. Missing people. Necromantic cult dealio.

We spent most of the session going around town questioning people and pretending to be brigand-hunters and/or looking to purchase an old farm, and I gotta say I really like this group's roleplay chops, all the moreso because I'm the only one who has ever played tabletop before.

Session ended with the necromancer priest and co trying to kidnapp us in our sleep. Only got the sleep spell off on half the party, and after my and the sorcerer's violently successful intervention escaped by threatening to decapitate one of the sleeping PCs. It's probably good that we took the "deal" (more of a temporary withdrawl) because my Plan B was to pull a hostage reversal and make the guy realize that whatever they had to threaten, if they killed one of us we'd raze the entire cultist section of the town. Still might get to pull that one later on.

Only problem is that the priestess is...strong. Multiple levels above us, I think. Still nearly killed her though, which is what lead to the above scenario.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrWiggles on September 10, 2017, 09:39:08 pm

The Dungeon World game, I was running came to an ending not too long ago. They were finally going to go meet Moana Loa. The Great Old Dragon that rules over the island of Hawaii, the kobold pirate haven. The volacno is named for her, not the other way around. And I've been telling them for a few sessions, they can't kill the million+ old dragon that made the hawaii islands.

And she near like a god really.

One of the players decide to try and get free stuff from her anyway. I was rolling with it. Originally I had planned for it to be something like Smaug and Bilbo kinda of thing, as they were looking for Death's saddle, bit and briddle for his pale horse.

But no. Wanna to see if the Dragon would be down with making him into basically the villian.

And he failed his roll, and the dragon killed all them.

GG.

GG.

So now I'll be running Red Markets, a game which isn't even technically out yet. Its a post apocalyptic economic horror game. The goal is for your character to retire. To stop being a player character.  West of the Mississpii, has been overran with zombies. And everyone that didnt make it out to the Recession is not only presumed dead but was legally declared dead. The problem is, well, most of the folks that were on the west coast are now dead and undead, there is still a none trival number of folks left behind. And they can't go over the mississppi river without being shot. They've formed Enclaves, little city states.

And the players are Takers. They do ad hoc big risk big reward jobs out in the wasteland.  You need to get a bank of a servers from a data center in a city? You hire a taker crew to take it. You need escort to get to the next Enclave? Takers. And Enclaves dont really like Takers. Takers aren't working the fence to keep the zombies at bay, they aren't farming to provide food. They just take.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on September 10, 2017, 10:09:04 pm

That post-apocalypse scavenging game sounds really sweet!  I personally don't mind zombies, I love having enemies which are sorta like humans but without the moral problems.  Grim, but not conflicted like actual... conflicts.

As for the dragon, that kinda sucks.  But on the other hand, if you fuck with a dragon, you get the fate you plan for.
My experience with Dungeon World is from the times Slowbeef and Diabetus played it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX1c-YULHEA).  It seemed especially open for interpretation...  Less mechanical burden on the GM, which is kinda tricky, because it seems like the GM therefore determines what happens.  Even more than usual.

Personally?  I've had characters who would never retire IC, who I wanted to end.  Challenging a dragon is something they would do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Teneb on September 10, 2017, 10:11:15 pm

Got invited to a D&D5e game. Supposed to focus very little on combat and more on politics and spycraft.

So of course I am making a barbarian. With as much charisma as I can get away with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 10, 2017, 10:21:11 pm

Literally give your Barb a Bard's statspread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 10, 2017, 10:26:28 pm

I once made a barbarian in Pathfinder with good charisma and terrible wisdom. And she was a cat person.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 10, 2017, 10:30:18 pm

furries

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on September 10, 2017, 10:39:29 pm

Skalds are a good theme for barbarians.  Intimidate uses charisma.  A barbarian is Conan, not a mook.
Wis is also a factor for 3.5 barbarians, if only for tracking.  In case the party can't afford to hire a ranger mook.
Dex is probably better.  Extra AC, and they're already good at *surviving* traps.  Ideal scouts, with damage reduction and reflex/trap bonuses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 10, 2017, 10:51:39 pm

Quote from: MrWiggles on September 10, 2017, 09:39:08 pm

The Dungeon World game, I was running came to an ending not too long ago. They were finally going to go meet Moana Loa. The Great Old Dragon that rules over the island of Hawaii, the kobold pirate haven. The volacno is named for her, not the other way around. And I've been telling them for a few sessions, they can't kill the million+ old dragon that made the hawaii islands.

And she near like a god really.

One of the players decide to try and get free stuff from her anyway. I was rolling with it. Originally I had planned for it to be something like Smaug and Bilbo kinda of thing, as they were looking for Death's saddle, bit and briddle for his pale horse.

But no. Wanna to see if the Dragon would be down with making him into basically the villian.

And he failed his roll, and the dragon killed all them.

GG.

GG.

So now I'll be running Red Markets, a game which isn't even technically out yet. Its a post apocalyptic economic horror game. The goal is for your character to retire. To stop being a player character.  West of the Mississpii, has been overran with zombies. And everyone that didnt make it out to the Recession is not only presumed dead but was legally declared dead. The problem is, well, most of the folks that were on the west coast are now dead and undead, there is still a none trival number of folks left behind. And they can't go over the mississppi river without being shot. They've formed Enclaves, little city states.

And the players are Takers. They do ad hoc big risk big reward jobs out in the wasteland.  You need to get a bank of a servers from a data center in a city? You hire a taker crew to take it. You need escort to get to the next Enclave? Takers. And Enclaves dont really like Takers. Takers aren't working the fence to keep the zombies at bay, they aren't farming to provide food. They just take.

That sounds pretty fun actually. Does it use the same Apocalypse World base system as Dungeon World?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on September 11, 2017, 04:46:27 pm

Probably one of my favorite characters in D&D 5e was my Barbarian with a Merchant background. He was far more merchant than barbarian; really, barbarism was more of a family tradition for him that came in handy when things got violent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 11, 2017, 04:51:16 pm

I've never play barbarian outside of Diablo games.  But I always wanted to try the Rage Mage prestige class in 3.5, which combined an arcane spellcasting class and barbarian, and allowed spellcasting in rage mode.  It was probably a terrible class (like most interesting stuff in 3.5), but I just loved the class name.  RAGE MAGE.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrWiggles on September 11, 2017, 08:34:55 pm

Red  Market uses its own system, known as the Market System.

Everything is done with two d10s. One black and one red. So you want to be in the 'Black', as Red means you're losing money. Matching numbers are crits. Odd are crit failures. Even are crit successes.  And skills, equipment can let players add to the Black die. If the Black after bonuses match Red, its a failure. If the Black succeed the Red, its a pass. Without any bonuses. Players have a 45 percent chance of success on any given roll, and ten percent chance to crit. Roughly 50 percent to succeed.

And then to prevent it from making it into a Backpack Simulator, all items have charges. You gun has ten charges. You get ten use of the gun. Your laptop has 5 charges. You get five uses of the laptop.

And then you have a thing called  'Refresh', which is derived stat, which lets you refresh any one item. Which is your character having foresight in packing extra laptop batteries, or extra food or extra gun.

It is a horror game, so there is a sanity mechanic. There 3 tracks. Detechment, Stress and Trauma. Detechament is where you stop being human. Stress, is just being anxious and no way to relax. And Trauma is when you watch someone screaming as they're being devoured by zombies.  Each have 15 boxes, into 5 bands. you get to 'break' 3 times before your character is nuts. Each time the character breaks. They can Fight, Flight or Freeze, then they get an expensive habbit as they cope. EG, they spend Bounty (the games money), on drugs and booze to stop feeling the bad feels and stop remembering the bad rememberings.

And there lots of other neat stuff in there. I like its take on Zombies, and the economy. Like its five years into the zombie apoc. Anyone who is left alive, knows how to deal with zombies. So Zombies arent that bad anymore. They can still get bad. But its much like the Weather. If you live a hot place, you can deal with it being hot, but a heat wave can still be deadly.

Whenever you do something excessively noisy out in the waste, it attracts zombies. Like if you fire a none silence weapon. It attracts zombies. You roll the d10s. the Black determine how close the Zombies are, measured in shambles, and the red determines how many zombies they are. The hoard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 11, 2017, 08:57:10 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on September 11, 2017, 04:51:16 pm

I've never play barbarian outside of Diablo games.  But I always wanted to try the Rage Mage prestige class in 3.5, which combined an arcane spellcasting class and barbarian, and allowed spellcasting in rage mode.  It was probably a terrible class (like most interesting stuff in 3.5), but I just loved the class name.  RAGE MAGE.

There's a similar Sorcerer Barbarian in Pathfinder. A sorcerage? It's called a Bloodrager iirc, because of the sorcerer bloodlines. Maybe Bloodbarian?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackFlyme on September 11, 2017, 09:02:41 pm

In addition to the Bloodrager, Pathfinder also has the Rage Prophet Prestige Class, for Oracle/Barbarians.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 12, 2017, 02:53:42 am

PTW. I've been playing a few games over the last half-year or so, mostly D&D 5e but also a few one-shots of other systems.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 12, 2017, 05:08:26 am

My current Pathfinder Society character is a "Paladin of Nethys," a barbarian who believes her rage is her god's blessing as an expression of the destructive side of his dual nature.

It's a really fun concept to play with, a true neutral paladin of a god of magic who's a witch hunter devoted to punishing misuse of magical power.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 12, 2017, 01:17:35 pm

Quote from: scriver on September 11, 2017, 08:57:10 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on September 11, 2017, 04:51:16 pm

I've never play barbarian outside of Diablo games.  But I always wanted to try the Rage Mage prestige class in 3.5, which combined an arcane spellcasting class and barbarian, and allowed spellcasting in rage mode.  It was probably a terrible class (like most interesting stuff in 3.5), but I just loved the class name.  RAGE MAGE.

There's a similar Sorcerer Barbarian in Pathfinder. A sorcerage? It's called a Bloodrager iirc, because of the sorcerer bloodlines. Maybe Bloodbarian?

That's not as catchy as RAGE MAGE though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 14, 2017, 11:29:48 am

Today at the used book store they had one of the 3.5 Diablo II books.  Its literally just Diablo II as an adventure.  I wonder how far I could run the adventure before someone catches on that its just the video game.  Probably up until "Stay a while and listen!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on September 14, 2017, 11:41:15 am

Probably right up to the end, seeing as I never played Diablo... Now if you tried to run Dungeon Siege...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on September 14, 2017, 01:42:25 pm

Depends on how into classic PC games your players are. Me, I like to think I'd realize right before character creation when you told me the available classes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 14, 2017, 03:41:14 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on September 14, 2017, 01:42:25 pm

Depends on how into classic PC games your players are. Me, I like to think I'd realize right before character creation when you told me the available classes.

There's actually two D2 books.  One's the adventure of basically the whole game (minus the expansion/act V unfortunately), and the second converts the character classes into 3.5 standards classes along with feats and spells and such.  So your wizard can learn corpse explosion or whatever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on September 14, 2017, 11:01:38 pm

New World of Darkness, Vampires campaign continues

But not for one of my ghouls, Nelson.  We...  Bad decisions were made, and I'm missing most of my torso due to demon-empowered gangrel claws, but he actually died.
And that's where things get a little complicated.  As an Invictus alder and a Ventrue, my character has certainly used people.  Largely other PCs, honestly.  Living humbly.  Having the rank, but never needing to pull it.  Watching.

Last night everything went wrong.  It was stupid, we were tired.

Our Baroness, literal land-lord, commanded us to investigate an abandoned mansion full of squatters.  There are complicated tensions between us and her, but we (mostly I) decided to accede to her demands.  For now...  She'll get hers later, the b- she literally revoked our right to feed at home, which is basically the only thing she offers us.  Fortunately, the Prince appreciates our loyal service.  She hates us even more now, because he insisted that she treat us right. 

[bitch gonna die [My char's at 2 humanity]] But of course we were happy to help our Baroness out  with her childe.
Also I'm pretty sure said childe is actively sabotaging communications, such that our technical liege-lady think we're ignoring summons.  Said liege refused to switch to the patented Newhall brand pigeon-system, so uh...  I guess I'm not even joking about the childe needing to die.  She's actively fucking us over.

This was supposed to be an eulogy for Nelson, my ghoul.  I suppose the lack of focus is pretty appropriate for a decently-aged vampire trying to remember their ghoul...  Even if it (sic) was a hopeful protege.

Nelson was a loyal ghoul.  He got accused of some heinous stuff, but after combing through his brain with especially intense vampiric compulsion I'm convinced he didn't do it.  He drove us places, was decent with a handcannon (which "helps" but isn't the best in NWoD), and kinda didn't keep being emo like my other ghoul.  Maybe because I only blessed him with resilience instead of a trace of Dominate.

He died by leaping into a demon-summoning circle at my command, in hopes he would acquire ultimate cosmic powers.  Instead he horrified the fucking Kaylas Belial's Brood, convincing at least one to run the fuck away.  Which is the only reason I'm still alive.
He's probably in hell I guess, I dunno.  My character canonically lost religion around the time she spent 50 years as a ghoul.  And she doesn't have enough occult to know where Nelson ended up.  But he was good, I guess I'm saying.

Rainbow, my surviving ghoul, is somewhat worrying...  So everyone says, anyway.  I think it's fine.  I insist it's fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 14, 2017, 11:04:02 pm

Better watch your back. Nothing like watching your counterpart be sucked into absolute torment to motivate a ghoul into making that willpower check and staking you in the middle of the day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on September 14, 2017, 11:10:01 pm

Rainbow has seen our group utilize a few ghouls, people and a couple of vampires.  By utilize I mean get killed.
Though they weren't *mine*, usually.  And that's the thing I was building up to, I guess.

My character spent 50 years as a ghoul, then 10 as a vampire bodyguard, before becoming a character.  Then did possibly the worst job imaginable- travelling with a pair of Malkavians and trying to cure them.  It kinda sucked, and she barely managed to resist the virus on one unfortunate occasion.

Her opinion is that it's one thing to embrace a pawn then sacrifice him for the Covenant.  That's just business.  But proteges are supposed to be different.  She's supposed to look after these ghouls for 50 years, embrace them, then let them go.

They're like her.  It's not right that one of them died.  That's... wrong.  She has 2 humanity, but things need to be a certain way, like they were for her.  She has absolute faith in her sire, basically.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Teneb on September 15, 2017, 06:55:35 pm

Finished making my Charisma Barbarian. Character has 20 charisma. At first level. Oh yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 15, 2017, 08:10:14 pm

Sadly, we lost one more of our characters that's been with us since first level during last night's game.

After 64 sessions spanning a little under one and a half years, the book closes on Lady Sarabian's story. Her quest to find and free her brothers from slavery was successful, to a certain degree. Her first brother turned out to be organizing an underground rebellion to free all the slaves of his city under his vigilante persona, the Silver Falcon. With the help of her friends, they succeeded in releasing the slaves and forming a free city.

Her second brother was captured by gnolls, and with frantic haste, she set forth to rescue him from their underground temple stronghold. Her efforts were successful, slaying all of the gnolls including their heavily pregnant high priestess of Lamashtu, though during the final battle she ended up on Lamashtu's sacrificial altar. As the high priestess fell, stabbed through her pregnant belly, calling out a prayer to her dark god with her dying breath, Lamashtu answered her prayer and appeared in person before our adventurers.

Sarabian, ensuring her brother was with her allies, delayed Lamashtu long enough to let them escape, then sacrificed herself upon the altar before Lamashtu could turn her to the dark god's own purposes.

Given the circumstances, she had a 90% chance of her soul being sent straight to be Abyss as a sacrifice, but her faith in Desna, the god of luck, favored her with a percentage roll of 99, rescuing her soul from being devoured by demons.

Behind the scenes of course, the encounter with Lamashtu wasn't actually with the god herself. Rather, it was a Glabrezu demon veiled to appear as Lamashu, bluffing the hell out of the party. Seems the group bought the ruse hook, line and sinker however, which is understandable and tempts me to use more deceptions and illusions in the future against these min-maxer munchkins.

So the group retreated to town to lick their wounds, sell their loot and heal their afflictions. One of their group is still permanently baleful polymorphed into a newt, but should be able to get freed next session.

We finished off the session with the two least wounded characters assisting the local dwarven high priest with a little summoning mishap. Apparently he'd been doing independent spell research and discovered a way to summon vodka elementals, which turned out to have met dwarves before and flew into a berserk rage. They slew the beast, earning a few castings of some high level cleric spells in repayment. It was a fun note to finish off the session, and the group got good and plastered in character in memory of their fallen companion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 16, 2017, 02:13:22 am

Quote from: Teneb on September 15, 2017, 06:55:35 pm

Finished making my Charisma Barbarian. Character has 20 charisma. At first level. Oh yeah.

That's definitely not rules-legal under point buy in 5E, did you manage to roll an 18 in a stat?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 16, 2017, 02:26:58 am

It might be 20 effective cha after being modified by an item...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 16, 2017, 02:27:51 am

I'm pretty sure you can't get any ability boosting items at first level either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 16, 2017, 02:28:34 am

"Family heirloom" (cough, nudge)??

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 16, 2017, 02:37:17 am

Could always just be some strategic roll fudging agreed on with the GM, for the sake of making a silly character. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: andrea on September 16, 2017, 02:40:43 am

Or maybe he used a +2 racial bonus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on September 16, 2017, 02:45:57 am

Quote from: andrea on September 16, 2017, 02:40:43 am

Or maybe he used a +2 racial bonus.

Nah, point buy in 5E lets you raise a stat to a maximum of 15, which with a +2 bonus goes up to 17. Only way to get more unless you relax the restrictions is if you roll for 'em, which is why I was wondering - I was planning a 5E game in the not too specific future and thinking on how exactly I'd do point buy in it because I really do not enjoy the low cap on stats in the baseline system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 16, 2017, 03:14:27 am

Just make everyone roll 3d6 for all stats, no rerolls or deciding what goes where. ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on September 16, 2017, 03:21:07 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on September 16, 2017, 03:14:27 am

Just make everyone roll 3d6 for all stats, no rerolls or deciding what goes where. ;)

3d6? Luxury. Back in my day we rolled 1d6 in order, and if you didn't roll enough Int to speak you just hoped someone in the party spent their skill point on Handle Animal. ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Arx on September 16, 2017, 03:23:05 am

At first level it's entirely possible no-one in the party has enough int to have skill points...

Sounds tremendous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 16, 2017, 03:27:02 am

I am now trying to conceive of a 3 Int 18 Wis 18 Cha character. A druid with a perfected subconscious, having attained the truest form of natural existence?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 16, 2017, 03:29:32 am

Gentle giant barbarian?  Roguishly handsome, and charming in the "special needs, innocent and pure" way, that has learned through the school of hard knocks that some things are just bad, m'kay, but otherwise has difficulty saying his name, and that he likes adventures.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 16, 2017, 03:31:11 am

I thought about it for ten more seconds and realized the ideal example is Forrest Gump, curiosity sated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Criptfeind on September 16, 2017, 04:43:13 am

My GM always said the monster manual was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Neyvn on September 16, 2017, 06:29:46 am

Anyone know a Good XCom-esk system?
I have a few players heading off to Boot Camp soon (Good on them for being recruited) but don't want to continue the story and they are interested in a new side game like XCom.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 16, 2017, 08:26:58 am

Define xcomesque.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Teneb on September 16, 2017, 08:38:01 am

To elaborate, I somehow managed to talk my DM into having a point-buy system up to 18. Add Half-Elf bonus on top of that. And there we go.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on September 16, 2017, 10:43:52 am

Quote from: Neyvn on September 16, 2017, 06:29:46 am

Anyone know a Good XCom-esk system?
I have a few players heading off to Boot Camp soon (Good on them for being recruited) but don't want to continue the story and they are interested in a new side game like XCom.

Also, do you want an RPG or wargame? Because you'll get two very different answers. A skirmish wargame will probably suit your tactical combat needs better, but a RPG could be a more robust experience.
My first thought is to tell you to use Deathwatch as a base, or just use the 40k tabletop rules. Stat your rookies as Imperial Guardsmen with a few more wounds, and boom, you've got a good mirror.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 16, 2017, 02:33:39 pm

Yup, 40K is probably the closest to XCOM rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on September 16, 2017, 11:59:41 pm

That's kinda true for both the battle-strategy game, and also Dark Heresy.
From what little I know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 17, 2017, 02:36:19 am

I think my game has died again.  One of my players has been unavailable for the past month and a half, and one of the others is moving to Denver in two weeks.  Unfortunate, as I had great fun setting this one up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 17, 2017, 02:58:01 am

You need better players.

For us, it has been the DM having "real life intervenes" that keeps ruining our sessions. :( Even if the players want to, we cant without our DM.

From the looks of things though, one of our sessions will happen when I am visiting at a friends house. It will work, he might actually like listening in to the voip session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Tack on September 17, 2017, 04:07:07 am

Anyone discuss Starfinder yet?
We've got a group who're about to play a game of it and it'd be cool to chat about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 17, 2017, 04:28:00 am

Needs more Orcs. 2/10.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 17, 2017, 07:49:33 am

Yep. As above. Despite ostensibly occurring in the same universe as the Pathfinder lore, there's no dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes, and yes, no orcs in sight. They're relegated to an appendix in the back of the book instead of appearing in the core races.

Do not want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 17, 2017, 01:32:55 pm

Quote from: wierd on September 17, 2017, 02:58:01 am

You need better players.

For us, it has been the DM having "real life intervenes" that keeps ruining our sessions. :( Even if the players want to, we cant without our DM.

From the looks of things though, one of our sessions will happen when I am visiting at a friends house. It will work, he might actually like listening in to the voip session.

They're pretty good players normally (one is my wife and the others are long-time friends), but life has been making things very difficult for everyone here lately.  The one who has been unavailable injured his knee and required surgery, and just yesterday had to go to the emergency room for a gall stone, this morning his gall bladder was removed (he's almost fifty), the other has been having extreme stress problems at work and is relocating for a better job.  It is unfortunate, but life trumps game, always.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on September 17, 2017, 02:27:13 pm

Quote from: Tack on September 17, 2017, 04:07:07 am

Anyone discuss Starfinder yet?
We've got a group who're about to play a game of it and it'd be cool to chat about it.

Oh, endlessly and for years. It was just called Pathfinder back then.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Tack on September 17, 2017, 02:54:37 pm

I'd say the ruleset is different enough to make it worth the difference, call it 2e if you want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on September 17, 2017, 03:01:36 pm

Quote from: Tack on September 17, 2017, 02:54:37 pm

I'd say the ruleset is different enough to make it worth the difference, call it 2e if you want.

Having skimmed it again, the only things that really stuck out to me a different are the themes and the new kinds of damage and hit points. Did I miss something?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 18, 2017, 04:58:31 am

Talking with a fellow Pathfinder player who also does a Starfinder game, he's reported that there's a few serious flaws in the mechanics. For example, the vehicle and tactical combat systems simply don't mesh. There's nothing in the rules about how you'd handle a small starship doing a strafing run across a land based group of enemies, for instance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrWiggles on September 18, 2017, 07:02:23 am

Thats not surprising. D20 never done vehicles well. I'm not even sure what would be a good mechanic for that.

Its a stunt or maneuver, so it would need a Pilot DC check to do, probably 15. Then what? Treat it as a low damage, +0 area attack? Everyone in the effected area gets rolled against. Maybe make it a Ref Save and if you fail you take damage.

D20 Modern didnt have rules for drive bys. And d20 Stars Wars (any version) didnt have strafing rules that I can rule, and I dont recall any strafing rules in D20 Future.

If a d20 game where to have it'd probably be Spycraft. But I dont recall them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on September 18, 2017, 09:10:57 am

Yeah, Stars Without Number is probably my favorite space game, and it also doesn't have rules for ship versus ground combat, though, after being mentioned on the Kickstarter, the creator said he'd at least include something for using bombs or heavy weaponry against starships.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 19, 2017, 02:04:33 pm

Quote from: D&D 5e session, paraphrased

GM: "As you approach the temple of the goddess of beauty, you're greeted by a man and a woman. The man is wearing a breastplate over a very short-sleeved shirt that shows off his muscles, while the woman's breastplate actually has the shape of the breasts and other curves forged into it to make a rather sexist armour."
Me: "Do they look more like warriors standing guard or strippers?"
Player 2: "I...think they may be both. It's the goddess of beauty after all."
Player 3: "Stripper warriors...I have a new character concept."
Player 2: "Not new. Those are called barbarians."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 20, 2017, 02:02:46 am

... There's an oglaf for that, but forum rules prohibit posting. Just saying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 21, 2017, 12:16:42 pm

u can link to it if ur not a coward

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 21, 2017, 12:43:55 pm

Oh no. The Toad does not appreciate such things. :P  I CAN however, give you the name of the strip in question so you can look it up yourself.

"Battledress"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 21, 2017, 12:54:46 pm

Seen it. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on September 21, 2017, 02:20:05 pm

I've got a new group slowly coalescing as people work out their schedules, and different members of the group have expressed a considerable affinity for two things in the campaign they'd like me to GM:

1. Ars Magica's plug-and-play grammar-based magic system
2. A mythic Renaissance setting, much like 7th Sea.

Which is going to be a problem, since Ars explicitly takes place in 1220 and 7th Sea has five really specific magic systems. I could plug Ars' system into 7th Sea with some difficulty, but before I do that, does anyone know of any previous attempt to either add generalist magic to 7th Sea or change the Ars Magica setting to circa 1500?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on September 21, 2017, 07:38:04 pm

Last time, in my D&D game! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151000.msg7555376#msg7555376)

I kind of forgot do write-ups for the past couple sessions, but it should work fine to just combine them into one post.

So the party met with the other party that would be perpetrating the fake attack on the guy they were escorting (Errol Coyle) (so that he would owe a favor to the thieves guild), a six person team consisting of a drow bard, a tiefling cleric, a half-elf ranger, a dragonborn druid, a human monk, and a hobgoblin devastator (which is a hobgoblin's version of a wizard) named Bilnix. Since the hobgoblin is the leader, they are known as 'Nix's Six.

So they spent some time making plans for the fake attack, and, during this time, the rogue pick-pocketed a monster tooth from druid so that the wizard could use the crystal ball he had found in the fey-haunted mansion to scry on her to see if the NPC party was up to anything nefarious (other than tricking a man into thinking his life was in danger so that he would be indebted to a mob boss, but the PCs were doing that too). Not seeing anything too suspicious, they went on to investigate a rumor they had heard before.


Out in the countryside, outside the city, supposedly there lived a farmer with a chicken that laid golden eggs. And since the party had a day before they needed to go do their escort mission, they figured this was something worth looking into. And sure enough, when they got there, they found a chicken farmer, and one of his chickens seemed to lay golden eggs.

Inspecting the chicken with magic and their eyes, they saw that this chicken gave off a magical aura and looked nothing like the farmer's other chickens, or indeed any chicken known to exist on the Material Plane. The party had their suspicions, and after some interrogating, the farmer finally admitted that he had exchanged his wife to the hag in the fey-haunted mansion in exchange for a gold-laying hen.

The wizard then cast dispel magic on the chicken, which transformed it back into the farmer's wife, and she was mad, not because she had been turned into a gold-laying chicken (she had apparently agreed to this, since the couple was in dire financial straits), but for turning her back before they had made much money. But, in the end, they were grateful, and gave the party as many (non-golden) eggs as they could carry.


After that, they went back to the city to visit the house that 'Nix's Six used as their headquarters. Since the dragonborn druid was working in the garden she kept in the backyard, the wizard distracted her while the rogue snuck around gathered up innocuous bits from the NPC partymembers' rooms to use for scrying material. They then said their goodbyes to her and went back to the bordello they had been staying at (which the wizard grew up in).

The last thing that happened that day was someone coming to them for help. He was a reformed former prisoner who had joined the church the players had let a lawful neutral death cleric set up in a former assassin's guild headquarters (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151000.msg7504445#msg7504445) after his had burned down around the first session (the players didn't cause the fire, but they didn't really anything to stop it). The ex-con was a former member of a gang led by a rather brutish goliath who wanted him back, but he didn't want to return to that life and was asking the players for help. Ultimately, though, they decided to postpone dealing with the issue.


The next day, the players would head out for the escort mission, but before they did, the wizard did some scrying on Bilnix. Through the crystal ball, he saw a figure he didn't quite know but recognized as a high-ranking member of the thieves guild. Bilnix was somewhat hesitant to share information without Sumak's (the thieves guild leader) knowledge, but the figure assured him that he just wanted to make sure the mission went off successfully. And so Bilnix told the figure all about the party's plan, including their intended route.

The party thought this was quite suspicious, but decided to go on with the plan as usual. The rogue went disguised, since the affect of his one magical dagger gave him the appearance of any pirate from a specific crew that he killed, and he had just killed one, and Errol was also a former member. So they met with the guy and left to escort him to his meeting.

Things seemed fine at first, but soon enough they saw some suspicious folk on the city streets, guys with horses wearing armor trimmed with weasel fur. They were able to recognize these guys as being members of the Dead Weasel gang, a rider gang (basically a fantasy motorcycle gang) that terrorized the roads to the northwest of the city. (The wizard recognized this because that's near Hibbleton, a halfling ghetto on the outskirts of the city, and he had spent some time there as a dealer of stolen goods.)

They were somewhat wary of these guys, but there were only a few of them, so they got their charge to a safe place, then snuck up on the guys and ambushed them. The wizard opened up with a confusion spell, not wanting to do damage to the civilians nearby, but that somewhat backfired when some of the civilians near them got affected and ended up attacking each other or just getting attacked by the confused gang members. Still, the plan went off relatively well, and they managed to take them down before they could head off to alert more gang members further down the route.

The party kept continuing down the established route, taking out gang members along the way, and about halfway there the party captured one of them, who told them, under zone of truth by the halfling cleric, that they weren't sent to kill the guy the party is escorting, just the party themselves. He also said he'd liked to join the party, and he knew where the Dead Weasel gang hid some treasure, so the fighter decided to make him his follower.

The party continued on, not getting too terribly injured, but using a lot of spells slots, and eventually they took out all the gang members (besides the one that defected). They encountered 'Nix's Six again, who started performing the fake attack as previously planned. Seeing that they weren't far from their destination, the half-elf bard grabbed Errol and dimension doored them both past everyone else.

After this, the NPC party stopped pretending to attack them, and Bilnix went up to congratulate them on a job well-done, while remarking his surprise that the party ended things before they could truly get into their act, at which point the wizard slapped him in the face and asked him why he betrayed them.

Bilnix was rather taken aback and confused by this. Upon looking at the party, he saw that they were injured, and asked who attacked them. The party then implied that he was in working with the Dead Weasels, but Bilnix told them he didn't know anything about them. He finally admitted to telling Eldon Wildthorn (the shadowy figure seen in the scrying, and high-ranking member of thieves guild), since he was an old friend of Bilnix, but he didn't think Eldon was capable of such a thing, though eventually the party convinced him that he might have been mistaken. After this, the wizard told Bilnix to leave town immediately.


The party then spent some time around the area as Errol had his meeting, and the rogue spent time listening in on the meeting, observing Errol's speech patterns and learning all the names of the people he interacted with, as he intended to kill him later and take his place. Then, after that, and escorting Errol back to the revolutionaries' base (which was uneventful), the party went back to the thieves guild-owned restaurant to tell Sumak about how the mission went.

When they got there, Sumak was glad to see them, and told them that Bilnix had already come by and told him about what had happened. Bilnix and his crew were currently under house arrest, as a precaution. Eldon was so far, nowhere to be seen, but the party had the other high-ranking members say they weren't planning to betray the thieves guild (or something like that) under zone of truth, and two of them were found to be lying, so Sumak would be subjecting them to more "traditional" forms of interrogation.

After that, the party returned to the bordello, and just outside the place they met a messenger who was waiting for them who said he works for Maxwell, a man the party is reasonably certain is the head of the assassin's guild, who requested their presence at the members-only club he frequents, as he wishes to talk with them about possible business opportunities.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 23, 2017, 09:52:14 pm

Today's session went well. After the hostage situation, we went and stayed at the non-necromancer inn and got some goddamn rest. Early the next morning, we are warned by the retired adventurer woman we met by way of an arrow shot magically from her house full across an entire lake, something about "trogs".

We proceeded to the mayor's residence, where we witnessed somebody (probably the mayor) being carted off by somebody else (probably his bodyguard who was probably a traitor). The ranger shot somebody else, but when I ran after them I got jumped by three troglodytes (the group didn't follow me, because I am one of two people in the party who can hope to function as a damage sponge). After that and some unpleasant damage, we met with the distraught mayor's wife who was then magically seduced by our creepy necromancer on a Nat 20. I gave her my spare sword and we made our way to the Harvest/Necromancy/Troglodyte Temple.

There was nobody there, and of course, there was a staircase leading underground. Having dark vision, I crept towards them. Now, I didn't mention it before, but there was this guy. Zuul. He was the village blacksmith and the dude won intimidation contests against two of the party in the last session, just sitting in an inn staring. I've been holding a grudge ever since. He was one of three fellows at the bottom of these stairs, except his skin was flaking off to reveal lizard flesh, and lizard eyes, with darkvision, staring straight at my dumb ass thinking he can sneak in the dark.

At this point, combat begins and the creepy dragonborn necromancer PC wins initiative. She then shouts my name as a warning and uses her electric breath weapon. I, a rogue, proceeded to then fail a simple Dex check with advantage. All four of us take about 13 damage (I have 17 hp). But I don't care. In delirious electric pain, I shout Zuul's name and kill him before he can get a single round off. It was a good moment considering I took him as a nemesis basically at random due to failing intimidation and he never knew my name. After killing the rest, I checked his mouth for gold teeth and found one. I think I'll get it enchanted later.

Nothing much more for the session, except finding out from a dissident cleric that this cult is definitely more troglodyte than necromancy based. They've been replacing people's souls, you see. We stopped mid-dungeon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on September 24, 2017, 06:40:35 pm

You're a rogue and you're your party's tank?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on September 24, 2017, 06:42:51 pm

No no, they're their party's damage sponge. Which is arguably worse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 24, 2017, 07:12:41 pm

I am basically the tank, yes. Our party composition is highly suboptimal: One rogue, one ranger, two bards, and a sorcerer. The ranger is second-toughest, but she's a bow specialist (this will also definitely eventually lead to her shooting me in the back when she finally rolls a 1). The bards could probably be doing more but they tend to focus on casting and one of them uses throwing daggers instead of a sword.

It doesn't help that I keep getting sent ahead as I have stealth and darkvision. I'm 2nd level now, so I can hide in combat to set up sneak attacks, but the problem is that this makes me not a target and so more often that not whoever we're fighting will go after the squisher party members instead. I should note that a crit from a lot of the enemies we've been fighting could one-shot the sorcerer or the bards, and so it's probably better that I take risks since they've got the whole of this party's questionable healing magic.

Oh, and I'm close enough with the GM that we're way past favoritism and into what is basically anti-favoritism. I'm pretty sure I'm playing about one level of GM lethality above everybody else in the group, based on the fact that I took three times my maximum health in damage this last session while a couple of the party stayed unharmed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on September 24, 2017, 08:14:33 pm

Let one of the bards get killed, and tell them that if their next char isn't a tank they should expect to die again soon... A poor rogue can only take so much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Teneb on September 24, 2017, 09:52:15 pm

Tanking with a non-tank class can sometimes happen. I mentioned a while ago the game I was in where I was a spellcasting-focused cleric sharing a party with a rogue, bard, sorcerer and wizard. I shared the damage-sponge role with the rogue. Tried to convince the player to go for Arcane Trisckster so we could have an all-caster party, but she opted for assassin instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on September 24, 2017, 11:02:58 pm

I once ran an all-wizard game in Pathfinder where they tanked with summoned monsters, and I have to say, it can be way more fun than having someone whose job is to get hit in propria persona. There's no tedious Cure Light Wounds spam after the battle, it opens up suicidal tactics you'd never want a fighter to try, and by the time it was obsolete battles weren't lasting more than a round anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on September 25, 2017, 12:44:36 am

We're on the B12 forums, the place where some people murder six dwarves, start with raw materials instead of a pick, and then settle in for a hermit game on a terrifying glacier for the challenge. What is this shit about parties needing to be optimal?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 25, 2017, 04:47:36 am

I've just built my third of Seven Sons of Sin for my weekly Pathfinder game. This one's an alchemist with a solid 40 AC, five bomb attacks per round for 6d6+11 damage, and eight minions.

Did I also mention the encounter's gonna occur over a pit of magma?

I'm really hoping the group don't abandon this quest, though I'm pretty sure they're likely to lose interest since it's a challenging encounter roster ahead. They lost one pregen character after facing off against the first Son of Sin, but they were short one person that week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 25, 2017, 06:19:45 am

So, uhm.. which sin is that?

(reference...)
    luxuria / Lust.
    gula / Gluttony.
    avaritia / Greed.
    acedia / Sloth.
    ira / Wrath.
    invidia / Envy.
    superbia / Pride.

If he is greed (alchemy -> creating gold for profit, at least historically), wouldn't it make more sense for him to use some kind of sick get rich quick type thinking in how to dispose of your adventurers? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Gentlefish on September 25, 2017, 10:37:15 am

Quote from: Teneb on September 24, 2017, 09:52:15 pm

Tanking with a non-tank class can sometimes happen. I mentioned a while ago the game I was in where I was a spellcasting-focused cleric sharing a party with a rogue, bard, sorcerer and wizard. I shared the damage-sponge role with the rogue. Tried to convince the player to go for Arcane Trisckster so we could have an all-caster party, but she opted for assassin instead.

Man. Whenever I play a squishy, I end up tanking and whenever I play a tank (without any mechanical aggro pulling) I never seem to get smashed in the face. It's a rough life indeed.

Heh, reminds me of the time I was playing a Scout in a CoC-esque 3.5 campaign. I was the only one to spot a demon-dog (I forget the name) and manage to roll a nat 20 on initiative. It still beat me with an 18. I got one-shotted and it then proceeded to eat my soul.

Still salty about that, even 2 years down the line.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 25, 2017, 10:44:37 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 25, 2017, 04:47:36 am

I've just built my third of Seven Sons of Sin for my weekly Pathfinder game. This one's an alchemist with a solid 40 AC, five bomb attacks per round for 6d6+11 damage, and eight minions.

You should find a way to make him do 5 less damage, so it's 6d6+6. Son of Sin, after all. And maybe make him throw one more bomb per round.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 05:24:17 am

Quote from: wierd on September 25, 2017, 06:19:45 am

So, uhm.. which sin is that?

(reference...)
    luxuria / Lust.
    gula / Gluttony.
    avaritia / Greed.
    acedia / Sloth.
    ira / Wrath.
    invidia / Envy.
    superbia / Pride.

If he is greed (alchemy -> creating gold for profit, at least historically), wouldn't it make more sense for him to use some kind of sick get rich quick type thinking in how to dispose of your adventurers? :P

You got their names in one go!

There's a creature called a Cambion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-cambion/) which is basically a tiefling, but born in the Abyss. Lore-wise, they're always male, serve higher power demons, and get variant powers based on their class.

In the previous few sessions, the group infiltrated a temple of Lamashtu, mother of all demons of the Abyss, murdering and hoboing the population of said temple. They lost a party member that's been with the group since the first session, about a year and a half total of weekly gaming nights. Said member sacrificed herself on the altar of Lamashtu in a final act of selflessness to free their companions when 'Lamashtu' herself showed up after the high priest was killed (it was actually just a single Glabrezu demon under a veil and bluffing his ass off).

So the party amscrays, regroups after licking their wounds, and returns to retrieve her remains for a proper burial (or more likely just loot the corpses they've left). As a DM, I've decided that in the last day, the sacrifice of a powerful soul upon Lamashtu's altar has weakened the barrier between the material plane and the Abyss at this location, allowing weaker demons to travel through.

There's gonna be seven of these Cambion bastards to fight through for the group, each with a theme. They've already met Acedia, the fighter of Sloth. He appeared to them as a tiefling sitting in a folding chair with a lacy parasol providing him shade, drinking ice water and watching four Vrock demons as they attempted to 'seal' the entrance to the demon planes below. He was actually bluffing the group and trying to speed up the process of the Abyss merging with the material plane. He tried to get them to leave peacefully, turned to intimidation when they refused, tried to use magical coercion when that failed and then resorted to violence and was killed by the group.

Next up I've got a room filled with sub-zero frost bleeding in from the Abyss, with Ira, the demon of Wrath and his eight Andrazku demon allies. If they bypass that, it's gonna be Gula, the demon of Gluttony and his eight Brimorak demon buddies over a pit of magma. Obviously Luxuria, the demon of Lust will be accompanied by a harem of succubi, but I haven't decided what to pair up the remaining Sons of Sin with yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2017, 06:19:09 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 05:24:17 am

There's a creature called a Cambion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-cambion/) which is basically a tiefling, but born in the Abyss.

*Dnd lore eye twitch*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 07:01:40 am

Yeah, they took a few liberties with the lore. And if you're gonna get twitchy over monster reskins, I got one word for you:

Kobolds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2017, 07:04:01 am

NOOOOOOOOOOOO

Actually what are you referring to about them?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 07:09:40 am

Kobolds (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kobold)

Basically, they started off as dog-faced goblinoids, then gradually morphed into the reptilian humanoids we all know and love (to kill) today.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on September 26, 2017, 07:12:58 am

Missed it by that much. Damn me and my need to dig out my AD&D monster manual.

Looks like they go more dog-like in 5e. Neat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2017, 07:18:13 am

Well yeah, I know about that change, but that happened between 2nd and 3rd edition - I remember Baldur's Gate, mostly based on 2nd Ed, having dog kobolds, and then NwN having the lizard/dragon-wannabe ones, which was through which I got to know DnD, so I'm completely fine with that change.

I thought you meant Pathfinder had changed kobolds in some other way (which would be ABSOLUTE HERESY, of course).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 07:27:16 am

Yeah, I figure if WotC can pull a klingon forehead switch on their own creatures, Paizo can be forgiven for redacting Cambion lore from Hell to the Abyss.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 26, 2017, 07:30:39 am

5th Edition has actually made kobolds more dog-like, for a change. Look at the noses and the shapes of the heads and feet:

Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)

(https://1d4chan.org/images/c/c1/Looting_Kobolds.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2017, 07:51:05 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 07:27:16 am

Yeah, I figure if WotC can pull a klingon forehead switch on their own creatures, Paizo can be forgiven for redacting Cambion lore from Hell to the Abyss.

What? No, that's completely insignificant to me, the twitch was about cambions being "basically a tiefling" :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 08:02:54 am

My favorite quote of that night: When the Cambion's talking to the female Aasimar cleric.

"Yeah, I got a little demon in me. You want a little demon in you?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 26, 2017, 08:48:26 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 05:24:17 am

If they make it through, the twist ought to come when they're suddenly attacked by the eighth Son of Sin, Despair.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2017, 09:28:09 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on September 26, 2017, 08:48:26 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 26, 2017, 05:24:17 am

If they make it through, the twist ought to come when they're suddenly attacked by the eighth Son of Sin, DespairHope.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 26, 2017, 10:14:05 am

I like to think of kobolds like fuzzy lizards, like the earliest proto-mammals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 26, 2017, 10:21:27 am

....

**Imagines them like gremlins that taint iron in iron mines, with shiny blue eyes.

Then again, I understand the folklore they came from. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 26, 2017, 10:23:16 am

Eh, so far as I can tell, Kobolds have nothing to do with Kobolds other than name.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on September 26, 2017, 10:29:44 am

It's a bit like comparing a Norwegian "troll" to a tolkien "troll".

One came from heavy license being taken with the other.

For reference:

(https://s26.postimg.org/t7jvv2tet/norwaytroll.jpg)
is to

(https://s26.postimg.org/s3zrj48rp/Hobbit_BFABanner_Troll2.jpg)

as

(https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/29/10429-004-1615FCBB.jpg)

is to

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/3/3c/Kobold.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20070405084827)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2017, 11:54:43 am

Yeah no, the picture of the kobold there is a much better illustration of the real troll than your first troll pic there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on September 26, 2017, 04:11:59 pm

Spoiler: these are obviously the best trolls (click to show/hide)

(http://www.sssscomic.com/comicpages/260.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on September 26, 2017, 07:21:40 pm

Spoiler: no u (click to show/hide)

(https://d2mpxrrcad19ou.cloudfront.net/item_images/348258/8448814_fullsize.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 08, 2017, 11:16:31 am

Hooo.  I was told that Shugenja are...  not tier 1, but this is amazing.  Not whining, I knew I was making a hyper-specialized caster, it's just impressive.  Particularly as a water-shugenja.

Shugenja are priests who play essentially like sorcerers, but about half their spells in each tier have to be associated with their chosen element.  In exchange they get one bonus spell known in each tier, an elemental-ESP if they meditate, and proficiency with wakizashis (no, really).  Could be worse, right?  Well, they don't actually get the full arcane or divine lists.  All spells must be chosen from the lists on page 145 of Complete Divine, which is an odd mix of arcane and divine.

Water is almost entirely healing/restoration.  Earth mostly has buffs, air utility.  Fire naturally has the most attack spells...  What I didn't realize, is it has *almost all* the attack spells :P  And as a water bender, fire is barred.

We started the campaign and level 8, and this is my list of spells known:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/5jb8sov.png)

"d" is domain-spells, in this case water spells.  "g" are general, anything but fire.  O is the "bonus" spell for being in the Order of Gentle Rain. 
Blank spaces represent "Spells known" slots I will eventually get.  I see why people say sorcerers aren't very flexible, now...
(Also:  I get to know 4 level 0 water spells, and there are exactly 4, but one of them is my Order spell...  So I have an unusable slot there)

It's really not bad, though!  We have a 5-person party, there's room for a healer/buffer.  We have an effective wizard, a frenzied berserker, and a somewhat green druid...  We'll be fine.  (We also have a cutebold spellthief)

It's just that our first encounter was against a mature white dragon...  On an airship, which sorta limited our options :P  The berserker couldn't beat its AC with archery.  The druid called lightning, which was working, but not really fast enough.  Fortunately our necromancer debuffed its dexterity to 0, causing it to plummet into the water for like 80 damage.

I did remove the fear effect from myself and two party members :D  I almost threw a magic stone for 1d6+1 (I'm a halfling!) but I feel I did plenty for a 5-character party.  I'll be even more useful casting Shield of Faith and healing on the frenzied berserker (at range, since I took Reach Spell).  Summoning elementals, even small ones, has utility too.

I also made everyone fish soup, roleplay wise it was a fun session (:

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 08, 2017, 11:37:39 am

Create and control water are potentially interesting, and could possibly be used offensively, assuming your DM allows creative use of spellcasting.

(Remember, you can drown in a tablespoon of water!)

;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 08, 2017, 11:52:10 am

Create Water is probably my favorite utility spell, heh.  I haven't tried using it to trip people up...  But this DM is more into environmental hazards like that, so it could be worth a try.  It's 16 gallons of water at this point!

Control Water definitely has uses, particularly since we're privateers on the open sea.  It can specifically create a pretty great whirlpool!  I just didn't realize that our ship flies :P

Also heh, I used a picture of Jace the Planeswalker as my character token, not having any idea who he is or what he's from.  Apparently I stumbled across a meme.  (Skype chat was flooded with people reposting my character image)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 08, 2017, 11:59:11 am

16 gallons!?

SHIT! Just wrap that shit around a mook's head, and wait 5 rounds.  Even the most stalwart pearl divers cannot go longer than 5 minutes without air.  As long as the creature needs to breathe, the combo could be a technical kill basically every time.

Other possible uses:

Requires multi-round prep before doing but--- 
Planning on sending the tank up against a fire elemental, fiend, or other "I will tots burn the fuck out of you bro!" baddie?

Round 1-- Water breathing.
Round 2-- Create water
Round 3-- Control water (form 1/2in thick shell of water around water-breathing buffed tank-- Force the DM to have to calculate effective increase in AC, and resistance to fire attacks.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 08, 2017, 12:08:09 pm

The level 0 spell doesn't provide any control like that :P  It just summons 2 gallons/caster level of water.  It can be summoned into various containers, or in the air to cause a "downpour".  It certainly shouldn't be an attack, but I could see using it to force a concentration check, or turn an area slippery.  It just shouldn't be as effective as a grease spell I guess, since it's a cantrip.

(Years ago we faced some vampire spawn on a staircase, and my cleric considered summoning water at the top.  "Running water" instantly destroys vampires.  But I don't remember how that turned out.)

And sadly "control water" isn't water-bending either...  It's much more general, just raising or lowering water levels.  If I want water to engulf someone and drown them, I ought to be summoning my small water elementals.  Which... aren't great, but they're something.

Edit2edit:  Actually hmm, maybe Control Water could be used to make a column of water on land?  Maybe I'll ask about that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 08, 2017, 12:21:14 pm

On today's episode of Tank-Rogue Suffers Greatly, we're missing our creepy necromancer so the DM decided to do a Halloween one-off fever dream.

So our DnD group minus one are dumped on the front gate of an abandoned amusement park, named Cool Dude Land. It was going to be that kind of game. We proceed inside to a small arcade with a ski-ball game, a whack-a-mole game, and an archery game. I proceed to be ski-ball god and win...a clown doll sopping with goo. To this sound effect. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mi4h00fedY) Great. Next, the ranger tries her hand at the archery game and fails, getting shot back with an arrow for her trouble. Then the slutty bard tries the whack-a-mole game and oh god they're real dire moles come to kill us. The game dispenses a skull with a letter on it. We finish up with that and I immediately look back at the clown doll even though I already know what I'll see. Gone.

The ranger tries the archery game again and eats another arrow for her trouble. I tell our actual archery specialist to step aside and actually make the roll, cementing my place as arcade god alongside winning ski-ball a second time for a second skull. The archery game gives us a wet rabbit doll that is immediately named Rotten Robbie. That one has no magic on it, so someone is actually willing to take it. We see the clown doll hiding inside a hole in the wall and depart to the rest of the park.

We're given three directions to go and I randomly pick straight. We come to a door with five skull-shaped holes in it. Great. We go back and go to the right, to the "Wavey-Water Land" area. There's a Tunnel of Love with a broken boat in the water, and a boating lake...with a skull sitting on a pole in the middle of the lake, impaled through a boat. Now, obviously this is a trap. It's water. I throw a rock in the lake and the spot bubble slightly. The ranger decides to test the lake by putting Rotten Robbie on a boat and shoving it off into the water. Sure enough, scaled hands come up and pull the entire boat down into the water. We are confronted by three angry shark-elves moments later. The slutty bard uses her magic item that shoots electricity. This badly hurts all three shark elves and the secret fourth shark elf. Now, the shark elves are still in the water. And it's my turn. And I have no ranged attacks. And I make the somewhat unwise split second decision to jump straight into the water because I've been the tank up until this point, so might as well.

I then begin to remember that I'm not actually a fighter, paladin, or cleric as I am then brutalized by all four shark elves and reduced to 2 HP within a single round, as they all have two attacks and gain automatic advantage as soon as anybody is injured. It was bad. Fortunately, the ranger makes an archery check to shoot a rope arrow at me, I make the dexterity check to grab it, and she makes the strength check to pull me out of the lake. Note to self: Buy a crossbow and remember that I can set up sneak attacks and attacks of opportunity. The shark elves don't do as well on land and are dispatched one-by-one as they crawl from the lake. Someone nervously sails out and gets the skull. We short rest. I open my pack. There's a clown doll in my pack. I immediately stab the clown doll. It regenerates from being stabbed. I toss the clown doll in the lake. It immediately reappears in my pack when it goes below the waters. Great. One of these.

So I stab the clown doll and keep him on the end of my sword to keep an eye on him. The ranger tries to set him on fire but gets too creeped out and fails. As he is a kebob-clown, he is thusly named Kaboby. We attend to the Tunnel of Love and try to ignore seeing a full-sized clown walk inside it. The "water" of the tunnel is more like...goo. The same goo Kaboby is covered with, in fact. It burns slightly. We decide the Tunnel of Love ought to be ignored. I try to interrogate Kaboby and he flips me off. This leads to the scene of us walking back to the park nexus, me first ranting at the clown doll on my sword as the rest of the party hides behind me so Kaboby won't look at them. We try for the other direction, the "X-Treme Zone".

There's a Tilt-a-Whirl with a skull inside, a broken ferris wheel with a skull atop it, and a shitty rollercoaster. We argue, Kaboby continues to be creepy, we decide we need more Rotten Robbies to use as decoys. I try the arrow game again and get shot with an arrow before either the slutty bard or the nonslutty bard suggests we just try to break open the prize container, at which point the DM explodes with exasperation at why we took this long to consider that. I apologize for my indoctrination preventing me from thinking of just smashing capitalism and then smash capitalism, taking three Rotten Robbies for the good of the people. Kaboby takes the opportunity to teleport back in my bag.

We proceed back to X-Treme land and put Rotten Robbie Jr. on the rollercoaster. The machine tries to push the slutty bard on the ride with it but fails, and the cart comes out the other side...with the full-sized clown, now named Kabossy, riding it alongside Rotten Robbie Jr. The cart crashes off the rollercoaster and out of sight. Right then. We put Senior Rotten Robbie Sr. Jr. on the ferris wheel...which is broken, so nothing happens. We put him on the Tilt-A-Whirl and it spins around violently, throwing him out. We get confused about what exactly the Tilt-A-Whirl looks like, I try to cut the hydraulics and discover they're already broken, and several people are thrown violently out the top before the nonslutty bard finally passes a strength and constitution check to make it through the ride and steal the skull. We manage to dodge the ferris wheel issue more carefully by weighting down carts to make the wheel turn and bring the skull down to us. That makes five.

The skulls spell BREAK, and the gate opens. We are brought to the House of Mirrors. Oh, god. Kaboby is smiling. It's dark inside, and there's mirrors everywhere. We try several checks but can't tell anything except...there's clown goo on the floor. Senior Rotten Robbie Sr. Jr. is thrown into the darkness...and crushed as Kabossy falls from the ceiling in a sneak attack. The final battle commences.

Kabossy uses a screaming attack against us. Slutty bard uses earthshaker and crashes every mirror in the house as well as knocking Kabossy prone. I roll a 1 and Kaboby comes flying out of my pack, healing Kabossy. I attack Kabossy and slice him in half, creating two smaller Kabossies. No swords, then. The others do damage and nonslutty bard makes the questionable choice to use hideous laughter on the monster clown, but it works out. I try to attack with a torch and roll a 1. Kabossy gets a crit against me. One of the Kabossies is killed. I try to attack with a torch and roll another 1, reducing me to 1 HP. Kabossy sonic attacks us again. The ranger hides behind her magic shield and passes her turn. Nobody is above 4 HP. I try to attack with a torch and finally succeed. Kabossy is finally killed by the ranger's flaming arrows.

The spirit of Cool Dude departs into the sky, and says we are truly radical. And then everybody wakes up in the lizard-cultist's wine cellar with that cowardly priest we met last session. That was some really bad wine.

Oh, and the slutty bard still has the spear he took from the shark elves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on October 08, 2017, 03:08:38 pm

Sounds fun. Makes me wonder if I should do a Halloween-themed session for my game. I think it's still spring in-game, but that could be this world's version of time. Also, they'll probably encounter vampire spawn soon, so that kind of works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Sirus on October 08, 2017, 07:09:14 pm

Yesterday my psion finally got to use his powers offensively (as opposed to mind wiping people in an attempt to remain undetected).

I can't say I soloed the encounter, but I did kill every single enemy (a group of two archers, two demi-rogues (lightly armored fighters), an evil cleric, and the boss) in two turns. It cost roughly a quarter of my daily power points, but it worked.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 08, 2017, 08:37:49 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on October 08, 2017, 03:08:38 pm

Sounds fun. Makes me wonder if I should do a Halloween-themed session for my game. I think it's still spring in-game, but that could be this world's version of time. Also, they'll probably encounter vampire spawn soon, so that kind of works.

I remember last year the pathfinder game next to my usual heroclix haunt was fighting Krampus in December.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 04:44:55 pm

This seems like the place to ask.
If a Half-Orc and a Half-Elf have a child, what race will the child be?
Also, is it possible for me to be a paladin to Hades, True Neutral god of death?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2017, 04:48:32 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 04:44:55 pm

If a Half-Orc and a Half-Elf have a child, what race will the child be?

A human with light green skin and knife ears.

Quote

Also, is it possible for me to be a paladin to Hades, True Neutral god of death?

Though some people try to be restrictive with the classic idea of the Paladin as a LG zealot, any "warrior of divinity" concept works for the class. A Paladin of Hades would attempt to serve the martial needs of Hades on the mortal plane, whatever those may be.

Also I think I accidentally started writing a campaign setting today, send help.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 04:58:29 pm

What's the campaign setting? If it is any good, you could sell it to... Wizard of the Coast.
Is WotC still the owner of DnD?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2017, 05:12:40 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 04:44:55 pm

This seems like the place to ask.
If a Half-Orc and a Half-Elf have a child, what race will the child be?

There's a non-official book which tries to answer questions like that.  It has this SFW chart:
http://i.imgur.com/9npPEjh.jpg
I don't have it handy, and even then it's non-canon, but I'm pretty sure the answer is they cannot.  Mostly on the grounds that elves and orcs cannot have children.  If it did work, I'd expect either or both the non-human natures to be purged, which sounds crazy hard to survive.

Depends on the GM/setting though, of course.

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 04:44:55 pm

Also, is it possible for me to be a paladin to Hades, True Neutral god of death?

Sorry but... no.  Hard no, in my opinion. (3.5e)
The *rules* are very "restrictive" with the idea of paladins being zealous.  Zealous dedication to their cause is the core of their abilities.

Not to say that a partially-neutral character can't be dedicated - druids can get very dedicated to neutrality - but, it's kinda like how the War in Hell is between demons and devils.  Neutral Evil outsiders certainly exist, but they don't get involved.

That's all bordering on alignment debate though, so here's the rules (in 3.5e):
Default Paladins have to be lawful good (AND operate under a specific code).
However, there are optional variant rules for paladins of the other three extreme alignments:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny

I've never heard of a neutral paladin even in splatbooks.  I think there were some "grey paladins" with less strict requirements, but they aren't paladins.  Closer to blackguards who keep some of their ideals instead of going "oops I've fallen, time to eat babies".

Edit:  Wait wait I just remembered though, there are many paladins of Cuthbert despite him being LN.  So actually...  Yeah, I guess you could be a paladin of slaughter or tyranny.  Your character would just have to be chaotic or lawful, even though the god isn't.

Edit2:  Cuthbert is Lawful Neutral not Neutral Good oops.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 12, 2017, 05:31:47 pm

Yeah, the answer to the Paladin question is to (a) play a class that's not the Paladin class and (b) roleplay calling yourself a Paladin.

There's a lot of fun to be had in subverting your group's expectations. Playing a battlecleric as a paladin, for example.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 05:36:48 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 12, 2017, 05:12:40 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 04:44:55 pm

This seems like the place to ask.
If a Half-Orc and a Half-Elf have a child, what race will the child be?

There's a non-official book which tries to answer questions like that.  It has this SFW chart:
http://i.imgur.com/9npPEjh.jpg
I don't have it handy, and even then it's non-canon, but I'm pretty sure the answer is they cannot.  Mostly on the grounds that elves and orcs cannot have children.  If it did work, I'd expect either or both the non-human natures to be purged, which sounds crazy hard to survive.

Depends on the GM/setting though, of course.

I like how the Dragon column is all "yes", the horny bastards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 05:45:18 pm

If orcs and elves can both have children with humans, why can't they have children with each other?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 05:47:03 pm

Guessing that's kinda based on Tolkien, what with Orcs being corrupted versions of Elves and thus opposites.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 05:49:35 pm

Well, that sucks. My paladin was going to the son of a half-Orc and a half-Elf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2017, 05:52:44 pm

You need not take our word as law. The only word of law is that of your GM, everything in the "real" rules is there to be a readymade structure which is known to be stable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 05:55:14 pm

Also note the "without the use of magical means". There's totally room for some magical fuckery there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on October 12, 2017, 06:04:00 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 05:49:35 pm

Well, that sucks. My paladin was going to the son of a half-Orc and a half-Elf.

Well, you could always forestall any questions of fantasy genetics and just be their adoptive son.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 06:08:06 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on October 12, 2017, 06:04:00 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 05:49:35 pm

Well, that sucks. My paladin was going to the son of a half-Orc and a half-Elf.

Well, you could always forestall any questions of fantasy genetics and just be their adoptive son.

That may work. I could have originally been the child of one of their victims, then they adopted me. That could give an Inigo Montoyo reason for why I suddenly became a paladin and vowed to save their kingdom from them. I had found out the fate of my birth parents.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 06:14:27 pm

Genes and Memes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on October 12, 2017, 06:20:31 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 06:08:06 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on October 12, 2017, 06:04:00 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 05:49:35 pm

Well, that sucks. My paladin was going to the son of a half-Orc and a half-Elf.

Well, you could always forestall any questions of fantasy genetics and just be their adoptive son.

That may work. I could have originally been the child of one of their victims, then they adopted me. That could give an Inigo Montoyo reason for why I suddenly became a paladin and vowed to save their kingdom from them. I had found out the fate of my birth parents.

I guess? I mean, you could also have come to be a paladin of Hades to hold people accountable for the crap they'd give a half-orc/half-elf couple, let alone their adopted kid. Particularly if the Hades of this setting is as altruistic as the Hades of Greek mythology, that might make a less edgy paladin of vengeance type, if that's what you're going for.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2017, 07:02:13 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 12, 2017, 05:49:35 pm

Well, that sucks. My paladin was going to the son of a half-Orc and a half-Elf.

Dunno if this is too late, but I think that's a pretty neat concept.  That book isn't even canon, so yeah.
The offspring would probably have a... conflicted nature, in my opinion.  And if I was GM, it'd probably be an unlikely occurrence?
But there's nothing stopping it from working with the character you have in mind, if you GM allows it.  And I think it'd be reasonable to allow it, PCs are supposed to be a *bit* exceptional :P

As for the Paladin thing, I agree with:

Quote from: Jimmy on October 12, 2017, 05:31:47 pm

Yeah, the answer to the Paladin question is to (a) play a class that's not the Paladin class and (b) roleplay calling yourself a Paladin.

There's a lot of fun to be had in subverting your group's expectations. Playing a battlecleric as a paladin, for example.

If you need Complete Divine, PM me, I know a place with good deals.
I hope I wasn't too negative, I just feel like paladins should stay extreme as intended.  Which is just, like, my opinion, man~

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 05:36:48 pm

I like how the Dragon column is all "yes", the horny bastards.

Mechanically it's probably the racial ability to shapechange, but the blue-orange morality and immortal perspective don't hurt.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2017, 05:52:44 pm

You need not take our word as law. The only word of law is that of your GM, everything in the "real" rules is there to be a readymade structure which is known to be stable.

This too

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 05:55:14 pm

Also note the "without the use of magical means". There's totally room for some magical fuckery there.

Owls.  And.  Bears.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 07:23:23 pm

But dragons changing shapes to get it on with the humanoids is literally magic fuckery.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 12, 2017, 07:27:51 pm

I dislike the notion that "extremist warhammer paladin zealots" is the "classic" Paladin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2017, 07:34:11 pm

I agree in that paladins aren't "cleanse purge kill", they're "help defend and be honorable".  And kinda have a stick about those things.  Even when the honor part is inconvenient.

Or whatever the variant versions are.  Really, better to be a warpriest or something if you aren't LG.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 07:34:32 pm

I feel like you should be able to have paladins of any alignment, though a lot of them would probably work differently to LG ones. There are gods for every alignment, and any god could want to have a few holy warriors knocking around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2017, 07:37:03 pm

Agreed. Classic LG paladins act the way they do because they're serving gods who want LG followers. It's circular to say that there just shouldn't be paladins for every other kind of god because it's that way, especially when no other class does this. It's a lot like the crazy 2nd edition requirements to class into bard, opening that up made the class better, not worse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 12, 2017, 07:38:27 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 07:34:32 pm

I feel like you should be able to have paladins of any alignment, though a lot of them would probably work differently to LG ones. There are gods for every alignment, and any god could want to have a few holy warriors knocking around.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2017, 07:37:03 pm

Agreed. Classic LG paladins act the way they do because they're serving gods who want LG followers. It's circular to say that there just shouldn't be paladins for every other kind of god because it's that way, especially when no other class does this. It's a lot like the crazy 2nd edition requirements to class into bard, opening that up made the class better, not worse.

Yes, but that reduces paladins to their mechanics of "fighty guy with divine magic", rather than reducing them to their origin of "knight errant/questing knight devoted to the chivalric code" a la the romantic knight tales of the late medieval/post-medieval times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2017, 07:40:56 pm

I see no reason why neutral or evil gods should not have questing knights, especially the lawful ones. The code in question just comes down to the beliefs of the god.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 12, 2017, 07:43:25 pm

(And the chaotic and neutral good gods!)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2017, 07:53:29 pm

Every god does have clerics, and several more options with Complete Divine.  I've always seen Paladins as more than just "fighter-clerics".  The alignment and code requirements are only slightly more than what's required of the monk, who also receives various powers from adhering to a strict code.

Maybe "always lawful" would suit me better than "always LG [or always extreme]".  But the alternate options always struck me as blackguards.  Including Paladin of Tyranny and Paladin of Freedom.  Paladin of Slaughter is just a compulsive murderer, has nothing to do with the class. 

Don't make me post Spoony discussing "What's a paladin?" :P

Okay okay, thing is there are lots of options for playing a fighter-cleric who's zealously devoted to a cause.  They aren't literally called "paladin", and don't get the VERY specific special abilities paladins get.  They get other things.

There's also no way to play a monk of chaos.  But there are classes about unarmed strike which aren't about fanatic dedication to law.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2017, 08:18:22 pm

Spoony might be a better authority if he'd posted anything in the last two years.

I maintain that a fighter-cleric with a code of devotion and a paladin have no difference in either fluff or crunch that bears respecting. Why not just do it if you're going to take it that far? Hell, blackguards are only really different from paladins in that they try to defile the code instead of obeying it, while an evil paladin would have a code from an evil god.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 12, 2017, 08:30:39 pm

I'm talking 3.5e, I don't think there have been significant advances in the last two years :P
Though he was talking about Ultima, not 3.5e, so fair.

I mostly agree, but I'll just say, clerics get THREE QUARTERS BAB and heavy armor.  While being spellcasters on par with wizards.  Similar power (and full access to every non-alignment-restricted divine spell every morning!), and they're still as good in a fight as a freakin rogue.  Having UMD as a class skill doesn't really match being a mainline caster with NO spell failure from armor.  Also... being able to wear real armor.

Clerics *are* fighter-clerics.  Paladins are that, but with very specific strictures.
If you want to be a zealous follower of a god (particularly a death god) and be a warrior who casts, be a cleric.  Or a cleric-fighter, first few fighter levels are pretty dang good.  And you can slap the infidels with negative-energy spells with even more BAB, not that you need it.

Or be a warpriest, a class that exists for that archetype.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on October 13, 2017, 01:56:11 am

Hades is also close enough to Kelemvor ideologically for it to be reasonable to ask your DM if you could take levels in a refluffed Doomguide class, in which case cleric/doomguide would be another alternative for being fighty and divine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 13, 2017, 01:06:12 pm

I should have been more specific. My paladin's God is Pelor, my paladin is LG, my paladin's parents are a NE half-Orc, and a LE half-ELf, and my character classes are some undecided combination of rogue and paladin, because my character was training to be an assassin before he decided to become good.
The second question, about being a paladin of Hades, was more rhetorical than than the first.
And apparently the people I'm going to be playing with are playing 5E, so factor that into your arguments.

Quote

t I'm pretty sure the answer is they cannot.  Mostly on the grounds that elves and orcs cannot have children.  If it did work, I'd expect either or both the non-human natures to be purged, which sounds crazy hard to survive.

When you said this, what exactly does "both the non-human natures to be purged" mean? Being able to mate with orcs, elves, demons, Devils, and Angels hasn't purged the human natures, has it? And what exactly do you mean by the word "nature"? Did you you just mean cultures, and say natures?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 13, 2017, 01:23:11 pm

No he means that because elves an orcs are incompatible, only the human halves would be compatible. And the result would be a human baby.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 13, 2017, 01:26:27 pm

Ah, I didn't understand what he meant before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on October 13, 2017, 01:44:37 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 13, 2017, 01:06:12 pm

And apparently the people I'm going to be playing with are playing 5E, so factor that into your arguments.

In 5E, paladins are much more flexible. Basically, you choose from 3 oaths: Oath of Devotion, Oath of vengeance, and Oath of Ancients. Oath of Devotion is your typical goodie two shoes Lawful stupid type from previous editions. Oath of Vengeance is about smiting evildoers. You choose a specific evildoer to smite at level 3. Like kobolds, or goblins, or undead. Of course, they don’t have to actually be evildoers. You can be a paladin of vengeance who is devoted to defending the world from the wrath of unicorns if you want. Finally, Oath of ancients is a nature hippie that cares about protecting the world and nature as a whole.

Those are the oaths in the php at least. None of those are specifically geared towards worshipers of an evil god, but I bet you can make vengeance work. You don’t have to though. In the dungeon master’s guide you have the oathbreaker Paladin who is basically the death cleric of paladins. You’re supposed to become an oathbreaker by breaking your Oath and then going on an epic quest to enlist the favour a evil entity or something (such as your god hades), but I bet if you talk with the Dm, you can probably relegate that quest to backstory instead.

EDIT: @ half elf or half orc discussion. I’ll go into this in more detail when I get back to my computer, but a half orc and half elf coupling roughly have a 25% chance for a human baby, 25% chance for half-elf baby, 25% chance for a half-orc baby, and a 25% chance for a miscarriage. I don’t want to break out the cladogram just yet but, just trust me on this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 13, 2017, 01:50:52 pm

In that same post you just quoted I said that the paladin I'm working on now is not the one of Hades. Also, Hades is True Neutral, not Evil.
Another rhetorical question related to the first rhetorical question, can I be LG paladin of a neutral God? I recall that in 3.5 a cleric could be two steps alignment-wise from his God, but I don't know about paladin's in 5E.
I am totally going to take the Oath of Vengeance. Can I choose to smite evil tyrants such as my paladin's half-elf dad?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 13, 2017, 01:52:16 pm

Unearthed Arcana for 5E has the Oath of Treachery (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UAPaladin_SO_20161219_1.pdf) as an alternative to the Oathbreaker, being generally expected to be the slipperiest and most treacherous fucker there ever was. And they get some amazing powers for it too, like getting to use Channel Divinity to create an illusion of yourself or poison your weapon, and getting haste, both kinds of invisibility, confusion and dominate person as bonus spells!

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 13, 2017, 01:50:52 pm

In that same post you just quoted I said that the paladin I'm working on now is not the one of Hades. Also, Hades is True Neutral, not Evil.
Another rhetorical question related to the first rhetorical question, can I be LG paladin of a neutral God? I recall that in 3.5 a cleric could be two steps alignment-wise from his God, but I don't know about paladin's in 5E.
I am totally going to take the Oath of Vengeance. Can I choose to smite evil tyrants such as my paladin's half-elf dad?

In 5E the PHB says a paladin can be any alignment they want to be, I'm fairly sure. 5E in general doesn't give two shits about what you think alignment means as long as it makes sense to both you and the DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 13, 2017, 01:54:57 pm

Oh, then I'm then I'm definitely going to be NG. I strike from the shadows, but I only kill after they have a chance to surrender.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 13, 2017, 01:58:31 pm

I especially like that in the 5E PHB it mentions that "your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior you have not yet attained", which gives delightful wiggle room and character ideas from the get-go.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on October 13, 2017, 02:07:26 pm

This (http://ow.ly/i/7qc7s/original) is oathbreaker and death cleric btw. I know you aren’t doing Hades anymore, but if you ever decide to, you should consider it. The powers are very thematically appropriate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 13, 2017, 02:11:17 pm

Huh, well I learned a little more about 5e.  We're still playing 3.5e, but we're still planning to try 5th someday.
And weird as it sounds, LG paladins can sneak attack even in 3.5e.  There's even a prestige for rogue/paladins.  They can't lie or use poison, but feinting and sneak attacking is apparently kosher.

Quote from: heydude6 on October 13, 2017, 01:44:37 pm

EDIT: @ half elf or half orc discussion. I’ll go into this in more detail when I get back to my computer, but a half orc and half elf coupling roughly have a 25% chance for a human baby, 25% chance for half-elf baby, 25% chance for a half-orc baby, and a 25% chance for a miscarriage. I don’t want to break out the cladogram just yet but, just trust me on this.

This is pretty much what I meant, but I'm less optimistic.  I was implying that the orc "genes" and elf "genes" would be in conflict.  They might cancel each other out, or one might win, but the result would *probably* be a miscarriage.  And it's even harder to imagine the child surviving with both elf and orc genes, which is usually considered impossible.

But again, PCs are one in a million (;  Also magic makes everything possible, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 13, 2017, 02:27:07 pm

*mutters about overly simplistic views on genetics.

*mutters that sufficient generations of consistent half-race marriage could result in compatible unions, by having homogeneous alleles from the human admixture, allowing full hybridization.

*mutters about examples in 'lethal white' in horses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_white_syndrome), where direct cross breeding results in infant mortality, but sufficient outcrosses to breed out the single specific gene that causes the mortality result in stock that can freely intermingle.

*Mentions that half-elves who marry half-elves are said to produce full half-elven children, even though the results of such unions can have any color eyes, instead of the fixed "green" given by the player's handbook for the offspring of an elf and a human parent, suggesting that such genetic shuffling happens in faithful marriages between half-elven populations.

Basically, while direct crosses between humans and the antithetical races (in this case, orc and elf) result in hybrids that are heterogeneous for whatever genes cause stillbirth, and where the direct coupling of antitheticals is 100% incompatible (due to homogeneous prevelence of incompatible genes), the viability of the human genestock with either provides a sufficient alternative, "viable" solution space, if the hybrid populations remain in isolation for many generations, and breed true within their demographic.  This would produce individuals that have only human variants of the incompatible genes, while still retaining racial characteristics of the hybrid demographic they belong to. (See for instance, eye color explicitly lamplit in the player's guide for half-elves.)  It becomes possible to have individuals produced from these respective pools that would have 100% cross compatibility, due to having the non-conflicting human genomic components for the conflicting sequences.

(Will edit with punnett squares to show how after gen2 hybrids, you have 75% success rate between the groups.)



(returns to dark hole that spawned him)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: heydude6 on October 13, 2017, 02:43:17 pm

It's fine, I just looked over my explanation and realized that I was completely wrong. Cladograms are meant for individual alleles, they aren't meant for entire genomes. There is going to be some mixture of elf and orc genes no matter what and assuming that is what causes the problem, then a miscarriage is likely going to happen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 13, 2017, 02:43:37 pm

One more thing about 5e paladins: they're not even necessarily linked to a deity. They're powered by faith and Charisma, but that faith can also be for causes, concepts and people. I'd even argue paladins are very closely related to sorcerers: if we take the Oath of the Crown, which is to a mortal sovereign and the law of the land, where do the powers come from if not from the paladin's own inner strength?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 13, 2017, 03:25:50 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on October 13, 2017, 02:43:17 pm

It's fine, I just looked over my explanation and realized that I was completely wrong. Cladograms are meant for individual alleles, they aren't meant for entire genomes. There is going to be some mixture of elf and orc genes no matter what and assuming that is what causes the problem, then a miscarriage is likely going to happen.

Again, based on the number of specifically incompatible genes that are heterogenous with pure elf and pure orc genomes that cause lethal combination, sufficient generations of faithful half-breed propagation will result in populations with increasingly compatible genomic profiles.

For a single gene, you will have ~50% chance of viable combinations at the first generation of hybridization with humans, and 75% chance of viability after generation 2 faithful hybrids.  With selective pressures, you can achieve 100% viability in 3 generations of faithful propagation.

This is likely to be co-existent with certain features associated with either elven or orcish breeding, eg-- "elven eyes", or "Orcish nose".  This can lead to "Rule of thumb" on what features to look for in a mate when attempting such a union. (EG, look for human eyes, or human noses.) 

It gets significantly more complicated to calculate viability percentages per generation when the number of genes in conflict increase, but thankfully, if there are two populations that are trying to mingle in this way, the valid human variant geneotype will be STRONGLY selected for, and whatever non-conflicting race-specific genes from the antitheticals will be able to mix freely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 13, 2017, 03:31:43 pm

get your disgusting science out of my orc/elf kissing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 13, 2017, 03:46:04 pm

Hey, My filthy science says that if you have two groups of culturally consistent half-breeds that have been around for a long time, then shove them together, you will have a greater than 50% chance of viable offspring right away, with increasing viability (due to infant mortality culling invalid sequences from the breeding population) with each generation thereafter.

EG, say you have Half-Elf county, and Half-Orc county.  The king decides that both are vile abominations, and exiles both to the same tiny reservation. Love knows no boundaries, and nothing brings people together like a common foe, (in this case, a racist king), and after a few generations, you will have perfectly valid Orc-Human-Elf hybrids, that have no problems whatsoever making babies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 13, 2017, 04:01:01 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 13, 2017, 02:43:37 pm

One more thing about 5e paladins: they're not even necessarily linked to a deity. They're powered by faith and Charisma, but that faith can also be for causes, concepts and people.

This was true for vanilla 3.5 too, with the exception of forgotten realms setting which did require divine patrons. I assume this setting specific caveat still applies for 5th Ed too, but I haven't read anything about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 14, 2017, 05:34:15 am

Meanwhile, a big thanks to Rolan7 for posting that interspecies breeding chart! That actually got use last night at my Pathfinder game.

To set the scene, the group, travelling on their airship through the Shadow Plane, was experimenting with their airship engine, which is composed of a mysterious block of umbrite. They know it has shadow powers, so the shadow bloodline sorcerer decided to cast her highest level shadow spell into the engine to see what would happen.

As a GM, I live for these moments.

The NPC airship captain screams out to brace for impact, and there's an almighty crash. The group exit to discover they've broken into someone's pocket dimension within the Shadow Plane, which contains a floating castle. Their airship is buried half inside one of the castle's towers, and the entire ship has lost power for eight hours.

With time on their hands, the adventurers decide to check out what's inside the castle. They peer inside, carefully listening as they shout echoing calls through the empty corridors, when I call for Perception checks. With a DC 30, two of them hear noise deep within the castle: the sound of clinking coins cascading across each other, and a creature emitting an enormous yawn.

Yep, they've just ram-raided a dragon's lair.

They're still arguing about whether to advance or retreat a few minutes later when a human man suddenly appears in the midst of the group. I describe him as having raven black hair that glistens like an oil slick, smooth unblemished ebony skin and unblinking eyes that are two bottomless pits of pure darkness. The ones who beat the extremely low DC to see through his disguise notice his shadow warps and twists into shapes completely at odds with his form, with claws, wings or a tail appearing momentarily. The Sorcerer makes the arcana check to identify this as an umbral dragon.

They show good sense and try the diplomatic route first, which the dragon plays along with, seemingly amused at their antics. He invites them inside his castle, insisting on showing his unexpected guests his hospitality. They go along, and one of the players who has invested strongly into ranks in baking skills cooks up a feast inside the dragon's kitchen. He even serves the dragon a dessert of trifle pudding inside the skull of the previous chef, whose bones he discovered chained to the wall inside the kitchen. The dragon is delighted, not only consuming the meal but eating the skull as well.

During the entire meal, he keeps throwing out thinly veiled threats as he asks each of the group about themselves, which actually helps immensely to give everyone an opportunity to delve into their character's backstory. The dragon even becomes an erstwhile plot device, commenting on their stories with snippets of lore and background that he recalls living through in his younger centuries. He makes it a point to ask about the group's status within society, commenting on how sad it is that nobody would miss them if they're gone for the ones that play lone wolf characters with no social ties, and genuflecting on how long it's been since he considered beginning a family when those with more blood ties give their own account.

He offers them a tour of his library after dinner in response to learning that the female aasimar cleric is a librarian by trade, and his impressive collection of books allows many of the group to make knowledge checks on stuff they really should have spent time studying before. The barbarian ends up with some rather interesting pornographic tomes as well, enchanted with illusions to give moving pictures and sound. One of the players asks for information about what species it's possible for dragons to mate with, and I grin and grab Rolan7's link, opening it up on a laptop and saying they find a natural philosophy tome containing that chart, which makes for an awesome moment when they discover the answer to their question. The look on their face is something I'll treasure for a long time to come.

After this, despite a few mentions of returning to the ship, the dragon insists they enjoy his hospitality for the evening, and they cautiously accept despite their misgivings, doing their utmost to avoid offending their host. He spends time saying how fascinating he finds the blood of the shadow sorcerer, to her immense discomfort. But the capstone to the evening is between the dragon and the young aasimar cleric, who is of course the last to leave the library and retire to her room. He gets her to admit to not having a love interest, either currently or in the past, before his final words to her for the evening: "You should know that being a virgin makes you remarkably attractive."

Can't wait for next week's session!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 14, 2017, 05:50:29 am

You should have made mr dragon into "pervert bard" archetype. :P

But where does he go shopping for zombie meat, all camped out in an extraplanar sphere like that?  Does he raise his own? (tee hee hee.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 14, 2017, 06:02:23 am

If the PCs successfully slay the dragon, they get to keep his extraplanar lair, complete with a mcguffin that lets them teleport inside and back out! He's admitted he didn't create his current home, but rather claimed it after the previous inhabitants 'no longer needed it.'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 14, 2017, 06:07:38 am

Good luck with that. He could very well be "Fat man in a little coat!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYB3Fx0a8-4) (or in this case, "Colossal dragon in a tiny sphere"), and just assuming his true form would either push them into the extraplanar void and destroy the castle-- or crush them instantly.

Especially if he is a very very old dragon, which could well be possible, given that time can flow very differently in such artificial pocket dimensions. They really should do some arcane and knowledge checks to see how old this pocket is, and what the rate of time passage is, before considering picking that fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on October 15, 2017, 10:19:28 pm

I don't have a group of people to game with and I've got some esoteric interests. That's led me to finally purchase Mythic Role Playing so I can use its GM emulator.

I recently came into possession of the complete line of Cursed Empire books for somewhat cheap so I decided to start with that. Four-character parties are neat. Assign each of the thirteen races/subraces a number and roll four virtual d13. Get 5, 6, 6, and... 6. Elf party go!

I then rolled for class.

A quick note about Cursed Empire: You pick your class, which gives you some skill ups and determines various things like mana and starting cash. You then spend build points on a subclass, which gives more skill ups and determines your starting Renown. The first word (one word or a compound word containing a hyphen/slash) is the class, the remainder is the subclass.

Valley Elf Warrior-Priest Guide (Warrior-Priest is kind of like you removed a Paladin's ass-stick and gave it to a Cleric)
Noble Elf Mage/Sorcerer Elementalist
Noble Elf Druid Druid-Priest
Noble Elf Thief/Assassin Black Marketeer

Most generic party ever. Elf Cleric, Elf Wizard, Elf Druid, Elf Rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 16, 2017, 05:38:19 am

I found a picture of your party bro.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/elves-attend-the-abc-familys-world-record-elf-party-at-bryant-park-on-picture-id94132178)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 16, 2017, 02:43:19 pm

Is there a background feature that works with an assassin-trained noble who was disowned?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 16, 2017, 03:06:04 pm

Assuming you're talking about D&D 5e, try Charlatan, flavouring the noble identity as the 'false' one. This way, you can still use your noble privilege but only as long as nobody calls you out on being disowned, and the forgery part fits assassin training. The Criminal background could also work with a bit of reflavouring. You could also discuss with your DM and create a wholly new background feature if they have time for such things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 16, 2017, 04:15:52 pm

Yeah, I am gonna have a mostly noble, with Criminal Contacts, with it being an informant, not just a contact since my character is Good, and stealth and either sleight-of-hand/acrobatics  as my background skills. How useful is acrobatics?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on October 16, 2017, 10:34:58 pm

What are your thoughts on the Pathfinder Vigilante + archetypes?

Also, anything on Bay I can sign up for?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Tawa on October 16, 2017, 11:30:16 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on October 16, 2017, 10:34:58 pm

What are your thoughts on the Pathfinder Vigilante + archetypes?

Also, anything on Bay I can sign up for?

You might be just in time to sign up for a Pathfinder game I'm running--one of the players quit today. Whether it'll continue at all is kind of up in the air at the moment, but if it fails I a backup idea I've been wanting to try out.

(That steampunk game died, though. Sorry about that :v)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on October 16, 2017, 11:37:53 pm

Quote from: Tawa on October 16, 2017, 11:30:16 pm

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on October 16, 2017, 10:34:58 pm

What are your thoughts on the Pathfinder Vigilante + archetypes?

Also, anything on Bay I can sign up for?

You might be just in time to sign up for a Pathfinder game I'm running--one of the players quit today. Whether it'll continue at all is kind of up in the air at the moment, but if it fails I a backup idea I've been wanting to try out.

(That steampunk game died, though. Sorry about that :v)

PM me details.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 17, 2017, 12:49:58 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 16, 2017, 04:15:52 pm

How useful is acrobatics?

It depends on the DM, but generally you should try to have at least one of Athletics or Acrobatics, as they're used to defend against some special attacks, such as grapples and shoves. Acrobatics is also good for climbing and other clever methods of running away, should the need arise. Sleight of Hand is very situational unless the campaign involves a lot of thievery and other trickery.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: OutOfManaException on October 18, 2017, 09:36:42 am

I've been wanting to run a Midnight game for ages now. Sadly I don't have a group in real life anymore and the sort of people you find on Roll20 are... Not great.

(Midnight is a setting for 3.5e that's basically "What if Middle-Earth had actually been conquered by Melkor?")

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 18, 2017, 09:53:05 am

There's usually a bunch of people here looking for groups. Me included.

...I call Ratbag.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 19, 2017, 07:35:02 am

Running a new campaign now, down to just two players, but I can deal with that.

Using Palladium's core rules, with dabs of Heroes Unlimited (no actual superbeings), RIFTS Three Galaxies, and Splicers.  The setting is an ancient Ringworld that has gone more than a bit feral, inspirations for it's flora and fauna courtesy of Xenoblade Chronicles X and Expedition.  One of the PCs is from my own Splicers factions and the other is an officer of the Atorian Empire (transplanted to the Three Galaxies setting from Aliens Unlimited).

So far things have been very interesting, and thus far the interactions have been tight and focused.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 19, 2017, 01:36:59 pm

The lack of weight, and low cost of soap and candles appeal to me. What can I do to use 150 soap, and 300 candles? Can I use the soap like ball bearings?

Also, I though of an awesome setting for a d20 modern campeign. XCOM 2.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on October 19, 2017, 02:28:50 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 19, 2017, 01:36:59 pm

The lack of weight, and low cost of soap and candles appeal to me. What can I do to use 150 soap, and 300 candles? Can I use the soap like ball bearings?

You can have a super-relaxing bath!

But, seriously, I have heard of people using soap in-game to either make surfaces slippery or make it easier to move through tight spaces. You'll probably also need water, of course.

Candles could be used to make molds of things, and maybe used to seal letters and such, though presumably sealing wax is preferred for the later for some reason, so candles may not be the best for it.

In the same vein of low cost and negligible weight, there's also chalk! Use it to mark passages you've been down in a maze, grind it into dust to blow into your enemies' faces, make your hands less sweaty for your Acrobatics roll, leave hints to future adventures about the boss that's about to kill you, play hopscotch in the dungeon, etc. The sky's the limit with chalk!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 19, 2017, 03:25:58 pm

Chalk is awesome.  Somebody can see the amazing magical portal door, but nobody else can? Give them the chalk, and tell them to draw a box around the door. Voila, now everyone can use the door. :P

Soap is useful for removing contaminants, along with water. (you DO carry water skins, right? RIGHT?) It is also useful for "not really alchemy" if you have GM approved skill use for that. (sodium palmitate, what you get when you turn palm kernel oil into soap, can be mixed with various ratified hydrocarbons without water, to make napalm, for instance. )

Soap is also amusing to use on bad-mouthed NPCs during interrogation scenes. (Just like mother used to do!)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 19, 2017, 03:27:08 pm

Candles can also be used for lighting, obviously. Might end up being more efficient than other options if you want to keep a whole room lit for awhile?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 19, 2017, 03:30:46 pm

Lantern is more economical for light. Can  be directed, does not blow out as easy, can pour the oil out of it and light that on fire to make an instant hazard for chasing baddies, etc.

It is best to carry a bullseye lantern and oil (until you can afford something like a belt of light or some such) and maybe 2 or 3 candles for various wax related shenanigans.

Soap in a sock shouldnt be overlooked as a fun makeshift toy though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on October 19, 2017, 03:34:54 pm

Candles are also useful if your GM uses a more logical version of the lighting rules that doesn't stop you seeing them 6 ft away in a dark room. If you need to figure out the relative positions of things in the dark (to track which tunnels in a cave system you've gone down, for example), having many small light sources is a good alternative to one big one. They're also a handy way to make a clock.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on October 19, 2017, 03:35:09 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 19, 2017, 03:30:46 pm

Soap in a sock shouldnt be overlooked as a fun makeshift weapon though.

ftfy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 19, 2017, 03:39:48 pm

I would say you could use a pot of boiling candle wax as a weapon, but it's really better as a torture device since you can just boil oil instead, which is way more deadly.

And then throw a waterskin into it for an instant bomb.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 19, 2017, 03:45:48 pm

No, candle is a fantastic torture device.

Stake the torture victim down on the ground spread eagled, and strip them of their clothing. Place a single candle on their chest, and light it. It will slowly dribble hot wax onto them, and as the wick burns down, will seriously burn them, but in a non-lethal way.

Lantern works better for "hot seat" though. (tie to metal chair. Place lantern underneath chair.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 19, 2017, 05:00:05 pm

So, as a human with 14 intelligence, How many total languages do I get? Common, one extra from race, maximum two from background, and two from intelligence?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 19, 2017, 05:18:23 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 19, 2017, 05:00:05 pm

So, as a human with 14 intelligence, How many total languages do I get? Common, one extra from race, maximum two from background, and two from intelligence?

Humans don't get a racial language, their racial language is Common (unless you're doing that admittedly fun situation where there's a lot of human languages instead).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Criptfeind on October 19, 2017, 05:20:46 pm

In 3.5 you'd get 3, 1 from being human (common) and 2 from int, which could be chosen from the human bonus list (which is "any"). In 5E I think you'd get 2 from being human (common+1 choice) and then any from your background, but higher int doesn't give more languages.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 19, 2017, 06:20:51 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 19, 2017, 03:45:48 pm

No, candle is a fantastic torture device.

Stake the torture victim down on the ground spread eagled, and strip them of their clothing. Place a single candle on their chest, and light it. It will slowly dribble hot wax onto them

Don't threaten me with a good time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 19, 2017, 06:24:56 pm

It depends on the kind of wax, as it so happens. One kind of wax melts at a temperature that scalds you but doesn't do any real damage, the other kind melts hotter and can cause second-degree burns. Not such a good time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 19, 2017, 06:26:46 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 19, 2017, 06:20:51 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 19, 2017, 03:45:48 pm

No, candle is a fantastic torture device.

Stake the torture victim down on the ground spread eagled, and strip them of their clothing. Place a single candle on their chest, and light it. It will slowly dribble hot wax onto them

Don't threaten me with a good time.

Don't forget the ball gag and leather gimp suit.

So, the group's spent the night in the extraplanar dragon's castle, but the dragon's got a hard-on for sexing the party cleric. I plan to have him try to bluff the group that she decided to stay in the castle to enjoy his library, but anyone else have ideas for other fun shenanigans I could pull on the group too? Assume the dragon has access to 5th level Sorcerer spellcasting and 75,000 gp of wealth in various forms such as items. System is Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 19, 2017, 07:15:52 pm

Does our dragon count (dracula? Nawww.. too cliche! ;)) get any special abilities via his control over the McGuffin?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 20, 2017, 01:06:11 am

Quote from: Jimmy on October 19, 2017, 06:26:46 pm

So, the group's spent the night in the extraplanar dragon's castle, but the dragon's got a hard-on for sexing the party cleric. I plan to have him try to bluff the group that she decided to stay in the castle to enjoy his library, but anyone else have ideas for other fun shenanigans I could pull on the group too? Assume the dragon has access to 5th level Sorcerer spellcasting and 75,000 gp of wealth in various forms such as items. System is Pathfinder.

Have the dragon summon a caulborn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bind-sage) to ask for dating advice? Definitely incorporate Greater Invisibility and Polymorph somehow, including possibly Baleful Polymorph as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 20, 2017, 01:34:47 am

Baleful polymorph on some lesser summoned being, to make it look exactly like your cleric, then use some kind of mind control on the cleric. (or just knock her out for awhile, hoping the adventurer party leave before the ruse is discovered)

The idea is to make the lesser summon go with the party as a changeling, while your pervert dragon keeps his prize.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 20, 2017, 12:56:28 pm

Dragonborn children from previous liasons? A magic item that removes clothing? A Philter of Love? An anti-exhaustion item, so he can go all night? A magical chair that instantly summons a beer, and a bag of chips/popcorn (user's choice), when you sit on it? A gateway that goes to an alternate univere where the only difference is kobolds are CR 30, each? A Pirate's Eye Patch, because why not? A gateway to an alternate universe where wizards, Druids, sorcerers, and clerics are the weakest classes? A Dwarf Fortress inspired dwarf who is trying to steal magical socks from the dragon? A +5 magic sword that keeps anything you hit from dying for 5 rounds, that can't be identified as such in any way? A cursed item that makes people think it's a ring of three wishes, but it's only an illusion, and NPC's are immune to the illusion?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 20, 2017, 01:07:21 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 20, 2017, 01:34:47 am

Baleful polymorph on some lesser summoned being, to make it look exactly like your cleric, then use some kind of mind control on the cleric. (or just knock her out for awhile, hoping the adventurer party leave before the ruse is discovered)

Baleful polymorph doesn't work like that, it only turns creatures into animals.

That said, planar binding or just plain old extraplanar acquaintances can probably get you a shapeshifter to pay off to take the place of the party's cleric. For bonus points, have the shapeshifter in question be ready, willing and terribly enthusiastic to adventure with the party for a share of the spoils if discovered, and have the same or even 1-3 extra levels of cleric compared to the original as well! Let the player of the cleric try to play someone imitating them for maximum amusement.

Maybe if they like it well enough, just let the player have the doppelganger's character sheet and play the rest of the campaign as a replacement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 20, 2017, 02:26:23 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 20, 2017, 12:56:28 pm

A cursed item that makes people think it's a ring of three wishes, but it's only an illusion, and NPC's are immune to the illusion?

On a note completrly separate from  the dragon kidnappinh scenario above; This is a great idea in itself. Imagine it like emperor's New clothes scenario. The players think everything they wish for but it's all just in their heads. Nobody else buys it. Like they ask to be super rich and believe they get a Purse of Unending Gold but when they go to pay for a new sword with it the shopkeeper just sees them trying to pay for it with imaginary coins.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 21, 2017, 03:55:17 am

Well, I went with the tried and true method: Throw an enchantment on the target when nobody's looking, then distract the rest of the group with shiny loot.

So during the session, I pass a note to the cleric's player, asking her to make five DC 21 Will saves when their character is asleep in the dragon's castle. The player's character, being a Wisdom based spellcasting class, has an absolutely massive bonus to their Will saving throws too, so they only have about a 20% chance of failure per save. Unluckily for them, one of those five rolls fails. Cue second secret note!

The pretty young cleric gets tagged with a Suggestion spell: For the next seven hours, you think it would be a great idea to stay and study longer in the dragon's library. For background, the dragon's been watching her from behind one of the paintings of himself in her room that night, one with a secret room behind it and eyes that open out to peep into her room as she's sleeping. I described the room and the paintings to the players, but apparently nobody was paranoid enough to check if they were rigged to spy on them.

Then breakfast rolls around, and the dragon offers everyone gifts before they depart. I basically throw a bunch of random low-level magical crap at them, like wands and wondrous items, but the cleric gets an offer from the dragon to enjoy an extended stay. She accepts it in front of the group as witnesses, and there's nobody who checks her for magical tampering, too busy enjoying their own loot. The dragon smiles a toothy grin as the rest of the adventurers leave his castle, seals up the entrances, and the scene closes on him standing over the cleric as she reads in his library, gently stroking her hair as he monologues with cringe-worthy creepiness.

Mission success!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 21, 2017, 04:32:24 am

...mission accomplished...?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 21, 2017, 05:44:59 am

...Roll for ovulation and successful fertilization?  'Course being a cleric I'd assume she has the skills to prevent, but will the player remember?  And would it be a good idea to abort if it did happen?  Vengeful dragons are really bad news, and some of them take their progeny very seriously indeed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 21, 2017, 06:08:11 am

Yep, the group sorcerer got the cleric to tag herself with a Bestow Curse of infertility beforehand, so the dragon doesn't know what's going on. Of course, being a dragon, his own personal outlook is that he plans to lock her in a tower for a few decades and let Stockholm Syndrome do the rest of the work for him before he makes his move. So if the group wants to mount a rescue, they've got time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Taricus on October 21, 2017, 07:37:12 am

Few decades? Seems awfully long-winded for a single individual especially when he can expedite the process a little by... well, just being upfront and asking. I mean that cleric isn't staying young forever you know.

Lets be honest, if they had the foresight to put that curse down, odds are the cleric knows what the dragon's after anyway :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 21, 2017, 08:21:32 am

It's a dragon. It's a reasonable precaution regardless of what he's up to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Taricus on October 21, 2017, 08:22:39 am

At that rate they might want to do it at any inn/tavern they visit as well :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 21, 2017, 08:56:41 am

The difference between your average drunken, lecherous tavern-goer and a dragon is that you can punch a drunken, lecherous tavern-goer in the nads and he'll go away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 21, 2017, 09:02:58 am

Except in the tiny percentage of cases where that average drunken, lecherous tavern-goer turns out to be a dragon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 21, 2017, 09:20:38 am

Unlikely enough that it can be safely ignored in this instance. ;P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 21, 2017, 05:30:54 pm

I mean technically punching a dragon in the nads might make it go away, it's just that it's a little harder to accomplish.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Taricus on October 21, 2017, 05:34:11 pm

I dunno, given the size of an average dragon you have a lot more surface area to hit. Might need to being a hammer though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: BlackFlyme on October 22, 2017, 02:16:55 am

Played a bit of Starfinder today, in the first book of the Dead suns Adventure Path.

The party Operative was lit on fire by a lucky crit from some thug's laser pistol, and kept failing the save to douse it.

Rolled three Nat 1's in the attempts. Even with the GM allowing the rest of us to use Aid Another to speed things along, the Operative was on fire for almost a minute.

In totally unrelated news, I bought a fire extinguisher.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 22, 2017, 02:59:02 am

Being on fire in Pathfinder gets stupid at higher levels.

"Okay, I coat myself in lard and set myself on fire. 1d6 damage a round, I've got about 150 hit points, so I can probably just stay on fire for about four minutes or so before I have to worry."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: wierd on October 22, 2017, 03:05:41 am

It would be more interesting if you have to do a scaled fortitude roll to be able to do anything other than scream and flail your arms in that condition though.

Sadly, the rules seem to overlook this in nearly every game system...  It's like they think this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Z9KqjSOko) is a common thing or something.

I honestly think that while you might not DIE horribly from being on fire, it being painful enough to basically nerf your turn as long as you remain on fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 22, 2017, 05:18:26 am

To be fair, if anyone counts as a high level badass, it's Andre the Giant. The world's a smaller place without him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 22, 2017, 08:27:24 pm

On today's episode of I Actually Read The Class Rules For Playing A Rogue, we return to the basement of the troglodyte-necromancer cultist infestation. After further interrogating the mousy non-lizard cleric, we proceed to the hatching chamber and commit lizard genocide on the eggs there, which gets us a feeling of a sharp glare from the lizard god. We take a chance to check out the last other branch we've never been in, get shot by an arrow trap in an empty mural room, and then head back towards the corridor containing "The Failure" and the summoning circle.

Turns out The Failure is a misshapen velociraptor. The lizard god is actually a dinosaur god. The Failure is sleeping, but despite my extreme reluctance to give up a free sneak attack the ranger is hellbent on trying to use her animal friendship. Shockingly, the ranger manages to pass three separate skill checks and gets the Failure (promptly renamed Starlord) to join the party peacefully.

I successfully open the iron wrought door with stealth and get a look at the summoning room. Near me is Trevor the mayor's bodyguard...next to the mayor, laying in a summoning circle. Traitor. In the back is Myrra, engulfed in a maelstrom of divine magic, doing...something... I try to sneak in and botch the roll (sneaking is an awful idea), catching an arrow from Trevor for my trouble. Combat begins.

The non-slutty bard uses her ice artifact on Myrra and misses, I roll great on Trevor but it isn't enough (AC of like 15, yeesh). Starlord comes barging in and bites a chunk out of Trevor because she's statted as a miniboss. The summoning circle activates and kills the mayor. Oops. I try to get past Trevor but fail, and the magic near Myrra starts forming into a shape. The necromancer launches a fire bolt at Myrra and Starlord flips out, but the ranger again succeeds at animal control. The slutty bard uses hideous laughter on Myrra, but even not sustaining the spell it continues to take form...into the dread Tyrannosaurus Rex, Susan! Trevor disengages me to nearly kill the ranger, and so I take the opportunity to rush up to the prone Myrra and for the first time properly use sneak attack! Which takes her down to 1 HP, which is properly taken out by the ranger stealing my kill with an arrow. Trevor flips the fuck out, and Myrra's mind control over this fucking T-Rex is broken, leaving it to react as any animal would in a noisy underground cavern full of fighting prey animals and tail whips the entire party save me.

HP is getting dicey now, but the non-slutty bard finishes Trevor and the necromancer fire bolts Susan (Starlord again freaks out and is brought back under control). I try to climb up on Susan's back but fail, while the slutty bard does the same and gets in a throat shot. Starlord does great damage but then there's another tail whip, and this one brings me down to 2 HP while the necromancer starts dying and fails the first death save. Everybody is about one tail whip away from getting taken out. I finally get a strong hit in, which I categorize as being certain I'm about to die and having gone full screaming barbarian on Susan's left leg. The slutty bard gets knocked off but makes his attack, which finally kills the T-Rex. Susan unravels into divine magic goo...and so does Starlord. The ranger is heartbroken, I'm still screaming and stabbing Susan's corpse, the necromancer is stabilized, and we're on our way out with the uncorrupted cleric.

At the surface we meet the ex-adventurer we met before, Velma, who has arrived in heavy armor and with her bow moving at an impressive clip for an 80 year old woman. Turns out all the lizard spirit corrupted people on the surface basically exploded when we fucked up the ritual. Since the mayor is dead and we kind of got him killed by lollygagging we decide to skip town and not talk to his wife, though I ransack Zuul's house before we go.

Level 3! Subclass time, and though I really desperately wanted to go arcane trickster for that mage hand it doesn't fit with my character (army background, already typed him as magic skeptical) and would allow me to disgustingly break the game. So instead I go with assassin and get automatic advantage (and thus sneak attack) on anybody who I beat on initiative as well as automatic crits on surprised enemies (and being a half-orc, this gives me another d6). God, it's disgusting. I didn't even intend to do this.

Unfortunately, the DM wants to institute a rotating DM schedule...I'm not really sure how or if that's going to work, and it doesn't help that she's already eyeing me as the most qualified second. Anybody ever successfully do this in their games? 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mini on October 23, 2017, 12:31:47 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 22, 2017, 08:27:24 pm

Unfortunately, the DM wants to institute a rotating DM schedule...I'm not really sure how or if that's going to work, and it doesn't help that she's already eyeing me as the most qualified second. Anybody ever successfully do this in their games?

One of my groups does this. We have 2 (3 next week) campaigns running simultaneously, each run by a different person and in a different system, and we switch generally after every adventure (or at another natural pause point after a month or so if it's a long one). Haven't had any problems with it, although it does require each of the GMs actually wanting to run their games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on October 23, 2017, 01:12:13 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 22, 2017, 08:27:24 pm

Unfortunately, the DM wants to institute a rotating DM schedule...I'm not really sure how or if that's going to work, and it doesn't help that she's already eyeing me as the most qualified second. Anybody ever successfully do this in their games?

My group does this. We basically switch off when we reach the endpoint of an adventure (which can take a long time. I think I've been DMing for a bout six months now, though it could be more).

It can be nice for the DM to take a break and get to be a player, but it takes coordination to make sure the next person will be ready when you're done, and especially if you're taking on an on-going campaign (it helps to have the next adventure take place in a new place and/or have time pass in-between adventures).

My first time DMing was with this rotating schedule, and I don't think it really made things any harder, other than the fact that I had to integrate things from the last DM's adventure, and I had to pick up from the exact time and place where he left off. As for general new DM advice, I'd say get to know the basic rules pretty well if you don't already, and run an adventure instead of trying to make it up yourself (since you'll probably end up having to make a lot up yourself even if you run and adventure, but it's nice to have some basic groundwork).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 23, 2017, 04:48:57 am

I get one week off each month, more or less, as we rotate out our regular game for a session of Pathfinder Society using a pregenerated adventure module on the first session of each month. I'm still in the rotation for GM, but at least it's only every 3 or 4 months where I don't get at least one session to play as a character instead of as the NPCs. My half-orc barbarian is a great way to unwind from the stress of prepping a high level homebrew campaign every week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 23, 2017, 12:43:13 pm

In 5E, do you no longer get bonus languages from high intelligence or bonus spell slots from high spell-casting-ability-modifier?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 23, 2017, 01:23:26 pm

At least bonus spell slots, yeas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mini on October 23, 2017, 01:43:45 pm

Intelligence does not give you languages or spell slots. It also doesn't give you extra spells/day, instead it (or your other relevant casting stat, for non-wizards) gives you (for all the normal casters, i.e. not warlock) extra spells prepared (and to-hit bonus with spells, save dc, probably something else).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 23, 2017, 01:52:57 pm

Well, that sucks. So a 2nd level paladin always has only 2 spell slots? That sucks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 23, 2017, 01:56:44 pm

It's two more than they had last level! Besides, Shield of Faith kicks a lot more ass than you'd expect.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 24, 2017, 03:10:55 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 23, 2017, 01:52:57 pm

Well, that sucks. So a 2nd level paladin always has only 2 spell slots? That sucks.

Yeah you always only have the number of spell slots it says on your advancement table. Giving you extra slots for high caster bonus would be awful game design because... to have a maxed out caster stat is already the optimal choice, why should casters be rewarded further for it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns
Post by: pikachu17 on October 24, 2017, 02:24:26 pm

In 5E, what is the highest possible AC, for a PC, without magic, and what is the highest possible number of proficient skills?
I found 20 for AC, at level 4, and I found 11 proficient skills at level 2.

@person who had a half-Orc assassin: Why are you only getting an extra d6 on surprised people?
Why aren't you two-weapon fighting, or using a rapier? And if you are willing not to do sneak attack damage, you can do it with a great-axe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 24, 2017, 02:42:03 pm

Not just an extra d6. One from standard damage, two from sneak attack at level 3, one from being a crit because assassin makes all surprise attacks crits, and one from the half-orc racial bonus on crits. And advantage against anybody I beat initiative on, which then means automatic sneak attacks. Assassin is fucking nuts.

I'm not proficient in two-weapon fighting and there's no reason for me to use a rapier when I've got a +1 shortsword.

I should note that my limitations with sneak attack are partially DM imposed. She's of the opinion that a Sneak Attack ought to be a surprise attack. I've barely argued her down to being allowed to sneak attack prone people in combat. Haven't even brought up the five-foot rule or the synergy with assassin advantage. In fairness, I would probably slaughter everything she threw at me if I could use it as written. I mean, did you see that shit up there ^? 5d6 surprise attack, with advantage, at level three! Only our boss enemies so far could tank max damage from that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railgun
Post by: pikachu17 on October 24, 2017, 02:56:27 pm

6d6? I only counted five... Two from crit, two from sneak attack, and one from half-orc. With two-weapon fighting, you could hit them twice, each time for at least 3d6 damage, and the first time having the extra 2d6 sneak attack damage. With a great axe, you could hit them for 3d12 damage, admittedly not really worth it.
With a heavy crossbow, you could do 4d10 damage.
Why should a sneak attack always be a surprise attack? Shouldn't hiding, then striking them work even in the middle of combat, or am I forgetting that there actually is a surprise attack? After all, you can hide in the middle of combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Criptfeind on October 24, 2017, 03:03:41 pm

Shouldn't it be seven d6? d6 from the sword, 2d6 from the sneak attack, combine those for another 3d6 from the crit, and then 1d6 again from the orc racial?

Also you might be thinking of 3.5 or something pikachu17, because that's not how it works in 5E which is what MSH is (I'm pretty sure) playing. Sneak attacks are once per turn in 5E, and in 3.5 crits don't double sneak attacks. Also he's not proficient with the weapons you're suggesting. (Edit: Nvm, I just reread your post and realized you were sugguesting that the attacks in the surprise round would do lots of damage when duel wielding, not all the time.)

Honestly fuck my reading comprehension here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 24, 2017, 03:22:55 pm

1d6 for the sword, I'm pretty sure sneak attacks aren't doubled in crit, that 1d6 is doubled to make 2d6, then another 2d6 for because half-Orc, plus 2d6 sneak attack.
I already knew the second sentence of the second paragraph. I know that sneak attacks are once per turn in 5E. I believe I mentioned that fact.
I know he's not proficient, but isn't a non-proficient attack roll with advantage worth a base 1d10 ranged crit with sneak attack damage? Just take one level of a class that gives you profiency with heavy crossbows, and I'm pretty sure it's worth taking one level of a different class. Choose 1 level of fighter, and maybe the archery fighting style.
EDIT:I found out sneak attack damage is also doubled in a crit. So, it is definitely not worth it to use a great axe, but I think 3d10 and 4d6 damage is worth an unproficient attack roll with advantage.

Anyway, what is the highest possible AC, and proficient skills for a PC?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on October 24, 2017, 05:38:18 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 24, 2017, 02:42:03 pm

I'm not proficient in two-weapon fighting and there's no reason for me to use a rapier when I've got a +1 shortsword.

You don't need to be proficient in two-weapon fighting to use it (also, two-weapon fighting isn't really a proficiency, it's a style. You can really only be proficient with weapons, skills, tools, and saving throws). Anyone can use two weapons to fight so long as both weapons have the "light" property and you use your bonus action for the second attack. You just won't get to add you ability modifier to the damage of the second attack unless you have the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 24, 2017, 06:09:01 pm

Sneak Attack is a pretty bad name for Sneak Attacks. Maybe they should've stolen from the old 3.5 Swashbuckler the name Precise Attack on edition change. Or renamed it Trick Attack. Or Underhanded Attack. Or Exploiting-Your-Enemies-Weaknesses Attack. I mean, I would go with Dirty Fighting but I wanted it to end with Attack and "Dirty Attack" just makes it sound like a whole other kind of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 24, 2017, 06:53:28 pm

Highest AC without any magic or enchanted equipment is 24, far as I know. A level 20 barbarian with 24 con and 20 dex and a shield using unarmoured defence has an AC of 10+7+5+2=24.

As for skills just go knowledge cleric and burn a channel divinity for whichever skill you want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on October 24, 2017, 08:47:24 pm

I also meant most profiency skills without magic.
I got 11 through human rogue with the skilled feat, and then taking a level of bard, but there are probably better ways to do it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on October 25, 2017, 05:12:34 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 24, 2017, 02:42:03 pm

I should note that my limitations with sneak attack are partially DM imposed. She's of the opinion that a Sneak Attack ought to be a surprise attack. I've barely argued her down to being allowed to sneak attack prone people in combat. Haven't even brought up the five-foot rule or the synergy with assassin advantage. In fairness, I would probably slaughter everything she threw at me if I could use it as written. I mean, did you see that shit up there ^? 5d6 surprise attack, with advantage, at level three! Only our boss enemies so far could tank max damage from that.

The shit is this? Sneak Attack already doesn't do that much damage to begin with and there's measures being taken to make it downright marginal? Thing is, it seems like 5d6 is a lot, but the fact is that rogues never get an extra attack and even if they did they'd still only get to apply Sneak Attack once per turn. Compare Magic Missile, a 1st level spell, which does 3d4+3 and also doesn't need a to-hit roll, let alone what a well-placed Fireball or a Spike Growth can do to a whole group of people. A Rogue that can't sneak attack reliably is just a recipe for misery.

Besides, even with Assassin the fact that you need to do a surprise attack to get an auto-crit pretty much means you're only gonna get the opportunity to do it when you haven't got the rest of the party with you (and manage to make a bunch of Stealth checks in the process, most likely), which also means it's probably when you'll really, really need it and honestly it kind of makes sense that if you get the drop on someone as an archetype whose whole thing is killing people silently you get to, well, kill them silently when you get the drop on them. It's actually one of the less powerful Rogue archetypes compared to, say, the Swashbuckler who gets to apply Sneak Attack to any target they're engaging with in single combat and then also retreat from any serious reprisal that same turn.

Although if your DM can't be budged, a way to get around that is definitely to get at least one of your two bards to learn and cast Invisibility (and, should you get that far, eventually Greater Invisibility) on you. That ought to get you at least one nearly guaranteed stabbing against a given enemy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrWiggles on October 25, 2017, 05:54:59 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 24, 2017, 02:42:03 pm

Not just an extra d6. One from standard damage, two from sneak attack at level 3, one from being a crit because assassin makes all surprise attacks crits, and one from the half-orc racial bonus on crits. And advantage against anybody I beat initiative on, which then means automatic sneak attacks. Assassin is fucking nuts.

I'm not proficient in two-weapon fighting and there's no reason for me to use a rapier when I've got a +1 shortsword.

I should note that my limitations with sneak attack are partially DM imposed. She's of the opinion that a Sneak Attack ought to be a surprise attack. I've barely argued her down to being allowed to sneak attack prone people in combat. Haven't even brought up the five-foot rule or the synergy with assassin advantage. In fairness, I would probably slaughter everything she threw at me if I could use it as written. I mean, did you see that shit up there ^? 5d6 surprise attack, with advantage, at level three! Only our boss enemies so far could tank max damage from that.

Is this e5? Cause in e5, sneak attack, not about finding suprising your oppenent. Its hitting them when their distracted, and cant property defend against you. Its become a much more active skill. Great for a flanking rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 25, 2017, 08:28:25 am

Yeah, the rules for Sneak Attack from 3.5e days were pretty simple.

Is the opponent flat-footed or denied Dexterity to AC? You get sneak attack.
If not, are you flanking? You get sneak attack.

Pretty simple, though they then screwed it up with a heap of monsters gaining immunity to the ability. Pathfinder at least made an effort to fix this, giving Sneak Attack back on all but a few types of creatures.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on October 25, 2017, 09:13:38 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on October 25, 2017, 08:28:25 am

Yeah, the rules for Sneak Attack from 3.5e days were pretty simple.

Is the opponent flat-footed or denied Dexterity to AC? You get sneak attack.
If not, are you flanking? You get sneak attack.

Pretty simple, though they then screwed it up with a heap of monsters gaining immunity to the ability. Pathfinder at least made an effort to fix this, giving Sneak Attack back on all but a few types of creatures.

And a couple of different kinds of sneak attack, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on October 26, 2017, 12:36:03 pm

5e Sneak Attack rules are also pretty simple: are you wielding a finesse or ranged weapon, and do you have advantage on the attack or a non-incapacitated ally within 5 ft. of your target (or, technically, an enemy of the target) and don't have disadvantage on the attack? Have you not yet used Sneak Attack on this turn (it can be yours or somebody else's if there's something allowing you to attack outside of your turns, like an opportunity attack)? Then you can Sneak Attack.

There isn't anything restricting the types of creatures you can Sneak Attack (presumably you are hitting some sort of structural weakness or something) or a limit to how far away ranged weapons can be used. Technically, you'd probably be limited to the normal range of weapons, because you have disadvantage to attack at long range, which would cancel out any advantage you would have and nullify the effect of having an ally next to the target, but, if you have the Sharpshooter feat, you can ignore disadvantage from shooting at long range (so, if you have some sort of build that gives you the Sharpshooter feat and also something that allows your rogue to use longbows (such as being an elf), you could potentially Sneak Attack people from up to 600 ft. away, though you'll still need an ally next to your target or some source of advantage).

So, probably the most reliable way to get Sneak Attack is to just have one of your allies standing right next to your target. The next is attacking from hiding, as this gives you advantage for attacking a creature that doesn't see you (this doesn't just apply to rogues; anyone gets advantage for attacking a target that can't see you).

For this, you'll need something to hide behind, and have to take the Hide action to properly hide yourself (which rogues of 2nd level or higher can do as a bonus action). This requires a Stealth roll, which is compared to the creature's passive perception, to work, and after you make the attack, whether you hit or miss, the creature can see you (so you'll need to hide again to use this tactic).

There are also other ways to get advantage, such as having someone cast Faerie Fire or Guiding Bolt (both 1st level spells), having a familiar with flyby (ignores opportunity attacks) use the Help action to distract them (granting advantage on the next attack against them), blinding or stunning them, knocking them prone (only really helpful if attacking from melee, and I'm not sure how a rogue would do it alone; maybe pick up the Shield Master feat (and also shield proficiency) and make sure your DM is okay with you using the bonus action shove (to knock them prone) before you use the Attack action).

As far as feats, there's Grappler, which gives you advantage to attack creatures you are grappling. It takes an action to grapple (or, technically, part of an Attack action, but that's immaterial since rogues never get Extra Attack), but it also takes an action to try to break out of a grapple, and, if you use Expertise as a rogue to double your proficiency with Athletics, it can be very hard for them to break out of it. Only works on things up to one size larger than you, though.

There's also Mounted Combat, which lets you roll with advantage on melee attacks against any unmounted creature that's smaller than your mount. So it'll probably take DM approval to get anything larger than a horse or possibly an elephant, and you're limited to only finesse weapons, but you can use this to do ride-by Sneak Attacks.

These are just a few ways to get Sneak Attack; the rules for it are lenient enough that all kinds of weird combos and builds will work. Now, if you excuse me, I'm off to build a cavalry rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 26, 2017, 01:27:06 pm

It's pretty sad you only get sbram attack with finesse weapons though. I want my half-orc rogue to sneak attack people in the head with a mace.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 26, 2017, 01:48:36 pm

There should totally be a feat for strength weapon sneak attacks.
Surprise greataxe to the face!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on October 26, 2017, 02:38:36 pm

Is the spiked chain still a thing?

I mean, it's D&D. Your rogue is probably wearing some kind of chain armor anyway. Why not wield a chain from the shadows as well?


Semi-related, my favorite idea for a rogue is a big half-orc with 18 strength and mediocre dex. When asked how he can pickpocket, he does a demonstration by beating the asker over the head with a club and then rifling through their pockets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 26, 2017, 02:55:44 pm

In 3.5, by SRD not splat, you can make a rogue who gets fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack.
Or a fighter who gets sneak attack instead of bonus feats.
I love the variant character classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) page so much~

Despite the symmetry, these two options make very different and interesting classes IMHO:

The fighter with sneak attack is very tough, gets full BAB, and there's nothing stopping them from sneak attacking many times a round.  They even still qualify for feats like Greater Weapon Focus, as fighters, they just don't get extra feat slots to assign.  This makes for a very hardy character with very high full attack potential.  They can't hide well, but all they need is someone to flank the target (hello low-level summoning spells).

The rogue with fighter feats...  Actually uh, RAW, I don't think they qualify for Greater Weapon Focus etc.  So they get fighter bonus feats, but a significantly narrower selection.  They're still good at hiding and traps and such, but they're giving up sneak attack for stuff like Quick Draw or Rapid Shot.  Or things with STR or BAB requirements.  This kinda sucks, but I guess it lets you specialize in battlefield control feats rather than DPS.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Criptfeind on October 26, 2017, 03:48:59 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 26, 2017, 02:55:44 pm

In 3.5, by SRD not splat, you can make a rogue who gets fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack.

Parts of the SRD come from books outside of core. Idk if you'd call them splat books, but... They kinda are. So parts of the SRD kinda are splat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: TalonisWolf on October 27, 2017, 12:32:37 am

My first (and sadly only) game of D&D I took part in two years ago was hilariously thrown off the rails, and it actually wasn't my fault. It's a rather long story, so I'll split it in three "chapters". Pre-Post Edit: Wow, this was longer than I thought.

Spoiler: And we started so well... (click to show/hide)

Fairly mundane start at first. A quest to kill some rabid wolves for a small village- we were worried that it was foreshadowing for werewolves, but we pooled resources to get some silver weapons. My Rogue grabbed a few wolf pelts, because the "Wolf Acolyte" thing under my avatar is there for a reason.

I'm sick for the second session and miss it. Turns out this was possibly the worst thing I could have done!

I come back to find that somehow, the village granary has been burnt down along with the village food stores and a decent chunk of the village, and no one would tell me what happened. Not even the NPC's in-game, beyond the fact that "a herd of wolves" attacked the village.

Given the GM, I suspect that the "herd of wolves" was the GM poking fun. Which in retrospect, was an early hint of his cheekiness. I gave in to their 'noodle incident' mentality and suggested we offer to escort the Village refugees to a nearby city, which they accepted graciously. Apparently, the fire was somehow the wolves fault. At this point, they revealed all the loot the "conveniently" scavenged from burnt ruins of the village, and I resolve to get better gear then them by any means.

Take a moment to consider what happened for them to get that gear.

Spoiler: Convoy (click to show/hide)

We escort the Village Refugees for a day, fight off more wolves, I get more pelts.

Then we stop for the night and I tie myself up in a tree to sleep without telling the others because they suddenly want my pelts, and I don't trust them to not take my stuff because I may have stole an enchanted dagger and some money from them. As the Rogue, they of course automatically blamed me (this was a hidden action that I slipped to the GM by slipping a message into his rulebook, but they didn't know that). Keep this in mind.

That night, more wolves come in. I go to help out, hiding until I can use the bonus from sneak attacks to strike then letting the others take the majority of the attention. By this time, the villagers recognize me as one of the people guarding them, so I decide to rob some people.

Eventually, someone walked in mid-theft and I end up hiding until I do a sneak attack to knock them out, after which I knock over a lamp 'accidently' to light the tent on fire to burn the evidence... and several other tents.All of which I blame on wolves:

"They burnt the village, didn't they? They must be bewitched or cursed!"

Roll to bluff, get a good roll, suddenly the entire party is being paid more to guard them. The GM, by this point, realizes that I wasn't the voice of reason unless it was convenient and made a vocal note to be the inconvenient voice of reason before ending that days session.

I'd made the worst mistake in D&D: attracting the GM's attention.

Spoiler: We Arrive at the City (click to show/hide)

Third session, we finally get to the city and think the mess is over... right up till the Captain of the City Guard refused to let the refugees in because they won't have enough food for the winter.

The GM is looking right at me as he says this, and I realize this his him being the "inconvenient voice of reasoning" and decide that this isn't going to go. My Rogue pointed out to the Captain that telling a hundred or so desperate, hungry and homeless villagers to go starve probably isn't going to win him any favors, and may result in trade being besieged by villagers-turned-bandits. Someone else suggests he split them up between different trade caravans so they aren't "his problem".

I sneak into the city, find a chimney sweep company, kill one of their employees to get their uniform and equipment, and rob some houses to disrupt the GM's train of thought while he's "negotiating" with the others... and tell him so mis way through to fluster him since I figure he's already going to be looking for the first chance to kill my rogue off.

Might as well win some goodwill with the rest of group and get a fresh start in one go, right?

One duel with nobility where I find out sabers beat daggers every time and a few bluffs later, I'm somehow still alive and much richer than I was before, I meet the party at the Inn by following rumours about the Villagers. I smile and ask what I 'missed'

The GM points out with relish to the rest of the group I'm still in "chimney sweep regalia".

My hearts sinks.

I quickly trick a drunkard into starting a bar fight by taking his beer "accidently" and taking a few hits, grab a room key and one of the other players bags, and lock myself upstairs until they brawl comes upstairs and breaks the door, jump out the window, and eventually die being mugged... for my pelts.

And that is how my first rogue died.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on October 27, 2017, 03:42:35 pm

That all seems reasonable to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 27, 2017, 04:12:24 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on October 26, 2017, 03:48:59 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 26, 2017, 02:55:44 pm

In 3.5, by SRD not splat, you can make a rogue who gets fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack.

Parts of the SRD come from books outside of core. Idk if you'd call them splat books, but... They kinda are. So parts of the SRD kinda are splat.

SRD also includes Unearthed Arcana for some reason.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on October 27, 2017, 04:23:18 pm

Well it was unearthed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2017, 08:24:56 pm

Our diplomatic mission kinda went south.  It has less to do with our party being neutral and or evil, and more that we were trying to convince very, VERY stupid animated clouds to stop being so stupid.  We ended up resorting to violence to back up our arguments, and uh
sorta destroyed the cloud they lived on with a sonic bomb...
Our airship is weird (This is a reboot of an old campaign I wasn't around for.  Fortunately I *like* bizarre in-jokes)

Our employers (we're privateers) were displeased.  "Fortunately" a player dropped out, so we blamed their character for everything.  This session opened with her being summarily executed, and us getting a bit of pay for trying to stop her.  (In actuality she was the only good character, and did basically nothing last session)

So far I've basically been trying to outfit a level 8 character with 79gp.  Magic and masterwork are out, but that's okay, I'm a spellcaster.  And the mundane item lists are actually a lot of fun.  I...

8gp Weatherized my robes (upgraded to cold-weather gear)
10gp Leather "armor" under said robes, since my class (Shugenja) allows all armor but considers it improper.
15gp "Buckler", also under robes, more an armored forearm sheath than an actual buckler
2gp 4 days of high-quality meals
10gp a platinum chip because meme
16gp a wizard's spell book and a holy symbol of Boccob, in order to confuse people.  Also my character is kinda a divine-arcane mesh, and was canonically confused about the source of his power.  (it's technically divine, from Touhou-style spell cards called ofuda).

Also our airship's captain is an Illithid and he just rode "a tenser's floating disk with handlebars" into The First Library of Boccob to inform me that the airship got stolen. 
Compared to our other GM, this campaign is very srs business and I'm having a good time, wealth-by-level be damned :P

Edit:  Fortunately the P.N.S Solaris offered us a ride.  P.N.S., Pelor's Navy Ship
heehee

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: TalonisWolf on October 29, 2017, 02:27:00 am

Quote from: Kadzar on October 27, 2017, 03:42:35 pm

That all seems reasonable to me.

Apparently he expected us to stay in the village to figure out whatever was behind all the wolf attacks, but he wasn't prepared for that level of destruction from our low leveled characters. He actually had to create new NPC's on the fly when we decided to escort the refugees, and dig out the map for the city that he hadn't expected to need for at least another week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on October 29, 2017, 04:05:08 am

DM tip: If you're in trouble, give the players a magical mcguffin you can bring back into the story later.

In this case, I gave one of my players a magical book that played pornographic scenes of yourself with succubi, complete with sound, whenever you opened it. He had some fun roleplaying with the item, but the real kicker was a whammy hidden in the history of the book itself.

See, the dragon that kidnapped the group's cleric revealed in passing that the book was given to him as a gift by Nocticula after "a hundred year weekend" they'd spent together. Nocticula, of course, being the demon queen of succubi.

The player of the cleric, who hadn't yet finished building their backup, was given an NPC next session to play instead. The NPC in question was a noble knight who had been rescued by the cleric in a previous story arc, his crippled body made whole by the cleric's magic, and who swore to defend her with his life and basically just followed her around as a mini-cohort.

So now the player gets to roleplay out the noble knight's grief that he'd never confessed his love, how much he regrets leaving her even when she'd admitted wanting to stay of her own free will, and how badly he wished to rescue her.

AHA! I cry to myself as the DM, rubbing my hands together with glee.

Enter the magic porn book once more. Only this time, it's leaking smoke and hot to the touch. The owner of the book checks it, discovers abyssal words appearing in burning script on its pages, and of his own free will takes it to the party's language expert, who's comforting the heartbroken knight. The text is translated, in front of the knight:

"What price would you pay to rescue her?"

The knight grabs the book and gets a glimpse of seductive feminine eyes and a sharp-toothed lascivious smirk staring out from the book's pages, words whispered into his ear as if from someone standing right behind him how he could gain the power to slay the dragon if he wished.

Then the rest of the adventurers tackle him to the ground and rip the book out of his hands, screaming bloody murder about deals with demons.

Of course, there's a dream sequence that evening, where the knight gets visions of him and all his allies being slaughtered in combat against the dragon, then an identical dream where he single-handedly defeats the dragon using a longsword that blazes with holy power and a shield bearing the glowing holy symbol of the cleric's deity.

There then follows a great byplay where the knight, waking earlier than everyone else from his restless dreams, steals the book from another player of his own free will. I even give the knight and the other player skill rolls to determine whether the heist gets pulled off successfully.

I shit you not, the knight rolls a natural 20, the other player a natural 1.

With that kind of result, nobody at the table dares argue the outcome. Roleplay is one thing, but when the dice are rolled, the results are sacred. Fate decrees the knight gets the book, whereupon he absconds with proper haste and gets intimate with a demon lord.

I must say I think I gave an amazing portrayal of the queen of all succubi. Specifically, her offer to the noble knight to grant him weapons to slay the dragon, and a hundred years and a day of joy and happiness with his love, if he agreed to her pact. He rightly questions her about her motives, and she goes from seductive temptress to apocalyptic rage when she screams in fury about the dragon scorning her. Apparently it's not a great idea to use a gift given to you as a memento of love by the queen of the succubi as a distraction when you're making moves on somebody else.

The knight gets the offer: power and happiness, all in exchange for one simple price. Their firstborn child.

He takes the bait, hook, line and sinker.

The knight pulls a longsword and shield out of the book, the ones that appeared in his dream. An abyssal mark appears seared into his palm as he draws the sword, a drop of his blood falling and soaking into the book's page. Demonic laughter rings out and a resounding voice decrees the pact sealed.

The best part of all this is that I had absolutely no plan or idea before the session started that any of this would happen. I made up all of this flying by the seat of my pants the entire time, but the entire table played into the events exactly like I'd predicted they would, an amazing spot of luck with some dice rolls backed up the trickiest part, and by the end of the night everyone's looking at me like I'm the craftiest god-damned bastard of all time.

Great session, overall.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on October 29, 2017, 12:34:41 pm

Nat-20 DMing roll, right there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 03, 2017, 02:09:52 pm

My friend doesn't really like DnD, so I decided I'd play a simplified version of it.
Anyway, I started him as a knight of King Arthur, and sent him to kill some bandits in the Uristian Forest.
Highlights of the session include:
 My friend insisting that the half-elven stable hand must have skill in archery, and thus should accompany him on his quest.
 A bandit in the trees shooting another archer in the trees, sending the corpse down on a sword-bandit.
 My friend recruiting a drunken mercenary with the promise of gorilla brains.
 After the stable hand refused to give a free horse to the mercenary, my friend's cutting the stable hand's head off.
 After a second fight with the bandit, where he and the mercenary got shot, trying to intimidate the healer into free healing, failing, chasing after the fleeing healer, firing his longbow indiscriminately.
After the healer gave in, Lancelot got word of this, and demanded that my friend surrender.
Did my friend surrender? No. Did my friend flee from Lancelot, when Lancelot was on horseback, and my friend was not? Hell no.
Then, Lancelot rolled a natural 1, and was disarmed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on November 03, 2017, 02:14:12 pm

more like lancealittle

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on November 03, 2017, 02:14:55 pm

I made a post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168118.0) that might be relevant to people here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 12:57:40 am

Taking this to the correct thread...

So I'm thinking life is probably going to stabilize a bit now.  Some sources of personal drama are gone.  Vehicles that were total'd are repaired or replaced.  We are moved into our new house.  Work is settling after the big re-structure of the office.  And I'm likely to start working from home soon for reals, which will enable me to cut back on some responsibilities and hours.  Goddamn what a fucking ridiculous year it's been.

And now that I'm here, I really want to find a weekend game to join up with.  I miss role-playing so much.  I don't think I'm likely to find anything local among friends.  Anybody got any good leads before I start randomly stumbling about the internet looking for one?

Going to try and avoid D&D/Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Gentlefish on November 11, 2017, 02:37:11 am

Quote from: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 12:57:40 am

Taking this to the correct thread...

So I'm thinking life is probably going to stabilize a bit now.  Some sources of personal drama are gone.  Vehicles that were total'd are repaired or replaced.  We are moved into our new house.  Work is settling after the big re-structure of the office.  And I'm likely to start working from home soon for reals, which will enable me to cut back on some responsibilities and hours.  Goddamn what a fucking ridiculous year it's been.

And now that I'm here, I really want to find a weekend game to join up with.  I miss role-playing so much.  I don't think I'm likely to find anything local among friends.  Anybody got any good leads before I start randomly stumbling about the internet looking for one?

Going to try and avoid D&D/Pathfinder.

Well, if you can, Paranoia just got a re-printing. That would be hilariously fun to play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrWiggles on November 11, 2017, 02:55:40 am

I really wanna play Legend of the Five Rings or Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on November 11, 2017, 08:13:04 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on November 11, 2017, 02:37:11 am

Quote from: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 12:57:40 am

Taking this to the correct thread...

So I'm thinking life is probably going to stabilize a bit now.  Some sources of personal drama are gone.  Vehicles that were total'd are repaired or replaced.  We are moved into our new house.  Work is settling after the big re-structure of the office.  And I'm likely to start working from home soon for reals, which will enable me to cut back on some responsibilities and hours.  Goddamn what a fucking ridiculous year it's been.

And now that I'm here, I really want to find a weekend game to join up with.  I miss role-playing so much.  I don't think I'm likely to find anything local among friends.  Anybody got any good leads before I start randomly stumbling about the internet looking for one?

Going to try and avoid D&D/Pathfinder.

Well, if you can, Paranoia just got a re-printing. That would be hilariously fun to play.

You know, a Paranoia Straight campaign might be really fun, running from Troubleshooters (or infrareds-about-to-be-Troubleshooters) all the way through the High Programmers supplement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 08:23:23 pm

Not really familiar with Paranoia.  Had seen the name a few times, but that's it.  Just looked it up.  I want to get into a serious campaign with some longevity.  Paranoia doesn't read like it lends itself too well to that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on November 11, 2017, 08:27:02 pm

Quote from: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 08:23:23 pm

Not really familiar with Paranoia.  Had seen the name a few times, but that's it.  Just looked it up.  I want to get into a serious campaign with some longevity.  Paranoia doesn't read like it lends itself too well to that?

Paranoia Classic and especially Zap do not, no; they're goofy and explosive and short. Paranoia Straight, on the other hand, is equal parts Kafkaesque and Orwellian; it's less about ray guns and mutant powers and more about surviving a bureaucratic hell run by an insane computer. The setting is always crazy, but when played straight it is also uniquely terrifying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 11, 2017, 08:33:53 pm

Quote from: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 08:23:23 pm

Not really familiar with Paranoia.  Had seen the name a few times, but that's it.  Just looked it up.  I want to get into a serious campaign with some longevity.  Paranoia doesn't read like it lends itself too well to that?

Oh man, and I was just about to suggest Maid RPG.

If you're looking for something more serious, Burning Wheel is always worth trying. Blades in the Dark if you can find it is well worth looking into as well.

That said, D&D games are a lot easier to find than either of those.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 08:36:43 pm

Burning Wheel and Eclipse Phase are the two games I most want to get into.  Burning Wheel because I'm enamoured with the mechanical design.  Eclipse Phase because I'm enamoured with the flavor and setting.

But yeah... I found the LFG subreddit, and it's 90% 5E :/

Spoiler: This is my RPG bookshelf (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/xhADco4.jpg)

Most of it outside the D&D stuff on the bottom has been collected at Gencon over the years.  The only ones I've ever had the opportunity to play as more than a quick demo are D&D, White Wolf, Amber Diceless, and Call of Cthulhu.

I would consider D&D if I can find a Ravenloft game.... I love that setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 11, 2017, 08:54:32 pm

Yeah, that's really the tragedy of it all. On the bright side, Curse of Strahd for 5E is a thing that's in with the kids now and that's Ravenloft, I'm fairly sure.

You could always try and run a Burning Wheel game, of course. Beneath the shitton of information it initially throws at you it's not really that complicated and a lot of what you can do with it tends to be blissfully optional depending on the kind of game you want to play. Granted, the Burning Wheel game I'm playing in that's given me that impression is admittedly a very talky as opposed to a fighty one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 09:00:35 pm

I have little confidence in my ability as a GM.  I know that practice and failure are required to get past that, but that's something I'd rather get through with friends and family.  Tried running Burning Wheel for a few people when I first discovered it, and it was a disaster.  When it's been like 10 years since roleplay has routinely been a part of my life, I'd like to get rolling again as a player.  And while I think I can set aside a few hours every weekend now, I still don't have the time for prep work to run.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on November 11, 2017, 10:16:59 pm

Quote from: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 08:36:43 pm

Burning Wheel and Eclipse Phase are the two games I most want to get into.  Burning Wheel because I'm enamoured with the mechanical design.  Eclipse Phase because I'm enamoured with the flavor and setting.

I've run Eclipse Phase before. The setting is amazing, provided you don't mind your science fiction riddled with outright magic like sleights and some of the nanotech. It's fine if you want a sort of far-future Shadowrun, but if you go in expecting diamong-hard sci-fi there are some things you won't like.

The system, on the other hand, can really let you down, in part because the sheer variety of options for stackable bonuses relative to the range of results it can generate makes it very easy to optimize to the minimum allowable failure chance for certain common actions. If you're running low-combat it's less of an issue (since there's fewer skills you know a priori you'll always use), but still, it might work better if you hack it to be open-ended.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 11, 2017, 10:18:24 pm

Calculus and Anarchist PolSci: The Game.

Anybody here ever play GURPS: Transhuman Space? Eclipse Phase is clearly drawing inspiration from it, but it seems like it has easier crunch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 11, 2017, 10:32:12 pm

Wooooah there's a Chronicles of Amber roleplaying game??  Personal note to check *that* out later!  Is it any good?  We're playing 3.5e right now, but I'm kinda due to run another game sometime.

(I might need to reread some, though...  I read the books so long ago, and I think I only read the first... 3?  I stopped on a pretty apocalyptic and explanatory note, but there were more books apparently.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on November 11, 2017, 10:45:57 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on November 11, 2017, 10:18:24 pm

Anybody here ever play GURPS: Transhuman Space? Eclipse Phase is clearly drawing inspiration from it, but it seems like it has easier crunch.

It does, yes; if you replaced brainpeeling with a nondestructive upload and propagated that change through, the settings would be broadly similar other than the status of Earth. I kind of liked Firewall, though, just as a default way to bring PCs together.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on November 11, 2017, 11:04:18 pm

Quote from: SalmonGod on November 11, 2017, 08:36:43 pm

Spoiler: This is my RPG bookshelf (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/xhADco4.jpg)

Cool. I always enjoy seeing some of the less popular games on my shelf in other people's collections.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 11, 2017, 11:06:43 pm

Unrelated:  Our wizard just referred to the Underdark as the "deep web"
I can't believe
I've never heard this

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 11, 2017, 11:13:36 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 11, 2017, 11:06:43 pm

Unrelated:  Our wizard just referred to the Underdark as the "deep web"
I can't believe
I've never heard this

99% of people won't spread this phrasing...the 1% who do are blessed by Lolth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on November 12, 2017, 01:00:48 am

Wait a second, amber diceless? As in Chronicles of Amber? The author name looks right...

I wonder if it is any good? How would you fit that setting into an RPG without it getting too crazy?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 12, 2017, 01:13:52 am

I was wondering the same exact thing :P

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 11, 2017, 10:32:12 pm

Wooooah there's a Chronicles of Amber roleplaying game??  Personal note to check *that* out later!  Is it any good?  We're playing 3.5e right now, but I'm kinda due to run another game sometime.

(I might need to reread some, though...  I read the books so long ago, and I think I only read the first... 3?  I stopped on a pretty apocalyptic and explanatory note, but there were more books apparently.)

But yeah, it's Zelazny!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Diceless_Roleplaying_Game
I'm not familiar with "diceless" roleplaying games.  Looking over the wiki page, seems really social and few hard rules.  I'd love to hear more about how that works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 12, 2017, 01:23:24 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 11, 2017, 10:32:12 pm

Wooooah there's a Chronicles of Amber roleplaying game??  Personal note to check *that* out later!  Is it any good?  We're playing 3.5e right now, but I'm kinda due to run another game sometime.

(I might need to reread some, though...  I read the books so long ago, and I think I only read the first... 3?  I stopped on a pretty apocalyptic and explanatory note, but there were more books apparently.)

There's 10 books in all, and there is a Great Book of Amber that puts them all together in one item.

Spoiler: My Copy (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/pLIuxkp.jpg)

Some guy also acquired the rights, and wrote 3 more prequel books about Oberon after Roger Zelazny's death.  They're highly controversial.  Friend of mine who ran our Amber campaign says the first book is lacking, but it picks up and gets fun in the 2nd.  Probably worth checking out if you're not a purist.

The game is great, but probably not for everyone.  It's diceless.  So you'll want a good, fair GM.  It has rules.  There just aren't any impartial mechanics for resolving things.

Spoiler: A summary of the mechanics (click to show/hide)

Each player gets 100 points to spend in character creation, and it begins with The Attribute Auction.  A bidding war for 4 stats

Psyche:  Your aptitude for magical type stuff, and general awareness
Endurance:  Self-explanatory
Strength:  Also self-explanatory
Warfare:  Your aptitude for general knowledge, skill, agility, reflexes, and things of that nature

In the auction, you're bidding for rank.  You'll know exactly where you stand vs the other characters when its over in the 4 attributes.  After the auction and in the course of the game, you can raise these and rankings can change... EXCEPT... whoever wins the auction in each stat sets the ceiling.  The other players can never surpass them, or develop that attribute further than 1 point beneath the top rank.  The game really pushes the Amber flavor of the story's characters being paragons of whatever they represent in the multiverse, and all other life throughout only shadows of them.  If you win first rank in warfare, you are the Benedict of your group.  If you win first rank in Endurance, you are the Corwin, who just keeps fucking going... to the point of digging with a sharpened spoon as he plots his revenge for decades after being tossed in a dungeon cell with his eyes plucked out.

After the auction, you can buy other stuff. 

Powers (Pattern, Logrus, Trump Artistry, etc_)
Allies
Shadows (as in your own personal kingdoms and worlds in shadow)
Artifacts
Etc

There's a really good inventory of well-described stuff with point values.  Artifacts are especially fun.

And then there's good stuff/bad stuff, which is one of the more interesting mechanics I've seen in an RPG...

If you want more points in character creation, you can take on "bad stuff" to get them.  Or if you want to forego spending all of your points in order to have "good stuff", you can do that also.  This represents a cross-section of many things.  Bad stuff literally means the world is against you.  The GM will write inherent disadvantages, more powerful adversaries, etc against you in the story.  It represents general bad luck.  General nuisances and setbacks will hassle you in the course of play.  It's also your charisma and mentality.  If you have bad stuff, you will leave a more negative impression on people, and you will have a more negative, pessimistic impression of the world.  Good stuff is basically the opposite of all this.

And then you play.  And everything's basically resolved by common sense.  In a straight contest, the higher ranking will win, with as much flavor depending on the disparity in attributes as the players/GM would like.  But of course, circumstances and maneuvering always play a part.  Benedict is the best fighter in the Amber universe.  Period.  But Corwin could still draw a fight out with him on the defensive long enough to lure him into a trap.  Amber's a world of intrigue and power plays.  You can't be stupid.

Sounds like a situation that would result in a lot of bickering and routinely soured participants... but this wasn't my experience.  The Amber campaign I played in was my favorite roleplay experience ever.  But I admit there were factors that probably lent to a stable game -- mainly that we had a decently mature and experienced bunch of players, and most of us had all just finished playing a 2 year D&D campaign together all under the same GM.

Spoiler: And because everyone likes talking about their characters.... (click to show/hide)

I was an angsty as fuck kid (19-20 years old, I think?), when we played this game.  Must have been somewhere in the years 2002-2004.  Long time ago.  This was the last really successful campaign I've been in that lasted more than a few months.  :/

My character lived with an abusive family on a cyberpunk-ish future earth, until he snapped one day, overpowered his dad, and stabbed him in the throat while protecting his sister.  Don't remember how old I said he was, but still a small child.  He ran away in shock and panic after doing this and lived as a homeless street orphan stealing stuff, until taken in by a mysterious martial arts master who cleaned him up and taught him some civility and self-control.  He went on to school to study to a frontier level in both neuro and computer science, and used these skills to construct an AI representation of his sister, who he never stopped pondering the fate of after he left.  Moved on when it started to feel too much like the confines of a career, and lived as a vagabond artist, fighting to be left alone anonymously in an absurd, increasingly overbearing world... until that world was engulfed in a shadow storm that kicked off the beginning of the game.

I managed to win first rank in both Endurance and Warfare with this character, but human-level strength (zero in game terms).  Was middling in Psyche.  He kept the knife he killed his dad with, and made it a minor artifact that was incredibly sharp and durable.  He basically fought with pure agility, and cut cut cut.  But we didn't have very much combat in the game.  Also went for weeks without sleeping.

He traveled around on a hoverbike that was encased in a sleek-looking smooth, glossy, egg-shaped black shell... also a minor artifact made to be near indestructible.

He was a self-taught Trump Artist, who didn't really understand the power, but channeled it through his computer sunglasses.  He would take digital photos of interesting or useful places he'd visit and turn them into Trump cards.  And he could browse and make use of his inventory of digital Trump cards without anybody knowing what he was doing (unless they could sense it through high Psyche).  He interacted with the computer sunglasses via micro-implants in his ears for audio and in his fingertips that allowed him to type on any solid surface.  He had stiff panels installed in the pockets of his trenchcoat, and would always have his hands stashed away, tapping his fingers.  The AI was a point-bought ally who also lived in those sunglasses, who constantly ran analysis on whatever was going on, could tackle informational tasks while his hands were otherwise busy, and was a super-badass in digital space.  For example, I was once in a high speed chase on the streets of a modern world.  I had her check online traffic monitors to figure out the best route, while manipulating nearby traffic controls and vehicle computer systems to clear my path and hassle the pursuers.  Also had her look up online recordings of the chief of police and impersonate him on a phone call to summon SWAT on an adversary.

I had a small amount of bad stuff at the end of character creation... so he was, even in mechanical terms, an angsty super-prodigy (as any Amberite would be on a shadow world but formidably intelligent and skillful by Amberite standards), who rarely slept and brought a techno-wizard aspect to the mostly fantasy setting.  It was crazy fun.  The multiversal nature of the setting combined with the loose mechanics allowed me to easily do basically anything I thought was cool with my character, and despite 8 or so players all approaching the game with the same off-the-wall mentality, it played really smoothly for about a year.  Would have loved to keep going, but real life started kicking people's asses, and eventually the GM gave it up.

Years later, the GM told us what he had planned for our characters.  Mine was apparently insane.  The AI wasn't real.  My character actually did all the things it did without realizing it, because he was just that super-talented and capable of multi-tasking, but also deeply broken.  And I described him as always having his hands in his trenchcoat pockets, secretly typing away.

I would absolutely play Amber again... but there are few games more rarely played out there.

Also, Amber has the coolest goddamn implementation of magic I can think of.  The concept of lynchpins creates this perfect balance between ritual and improvised magic.  Fucking love it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 12, 2017, 01:31:29 am

Thanks a bunch!  Currently in DND but giving that writeup a read when I can.  And wow, that's the book I have :D
(Looks like I read the Corwin cycle, never started the Merlin cycle.  I also read the first prequel book, I remember it being alright though notably different.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: milo christiansen on November 12, 2017, 12:08:05 pm

That sounds cool! It would be kinda hard to find a GM that would be up to it though...

I rather liked the books, and Merlin's ending was one one my favorites, happy (sort of) but not sappy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrWiggles on November 12, 2017, 09:56:06 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 11, 2017, 10:32:12 pm

Wooooah there's a Chronicles of Amber roleplaying game??  Personal note to check *that* out later!  Is it any good?  We're playing 3.5e right now, but I'm kinda due to run another game sometime.

(I might need to reread some, though...  I read the books so long ago, and I think I only read the first... 3?  I stopped on a pretty apocalyptic and explanatory note, but there were more books apparently.)

I think the Chronicles of Amber was gurps. I think it had an original system sometime in the 80s, but I think its newest incarnation is gurps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 12, 2017, 10:03:54 pm

The copy I've got looks like it was published by Phage Press in 1991.  Mine is 4th printing 1999.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/XTuLhGf.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 12, 2017, 10:15:56 pm

Quote from: SalmonGod on November 12, 2017, 01:23:24 am

And then you play.  And everything's basically resolved by common sense.  In a straight contest, the higher ranking will win, with as much flavor depending on the disparity in attributes as the players/GM would like.  But of course, circumstances and maneuvering always play a part.  Benedict is the best fighter in the Amber universe.  Period.  But Corwin could still draw a fight out with him on the defensive long enough to lure him into a trap.  Amber's a world of intrigue and power plays.  You can't be stupid.

Thanks so much for this in-depth and fascinating explanation (particularly cool part quoted).  I really might DM this for my friends sometime...  Probably not for a month or two, but still.  My understanding of the setting has rusted a lot, but I feel like I still have the key factors (based on the Corwin cycle) and they shouldn't be hard to teach.  I'll likely make up a lot of stuff to fill in the setting, aheh, which I think sometimes works better than strict adherence to an established setting (As Spoony talked about in his Babylon 5 game.  He intentionally modified several events and NPCs so that players couldn't study the show's plot for meta-advantage).

Your character reminds me in some ways of my first Vampire character, a bit of a techno-genius inspired in part by Mr Robot.  My vampire was (usually) less edgy, heh, but I was 29 at the time (;
Technology seemed underutilized in the Corwin cycle, though the setting does mostly explain why.  And, heh, there were exceptions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 12, 2017, 10:25:32 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 12, 2017, 10:15:56 pm

Technology seemed underutilized in the Corwin cycle, though the setting does mostly explain why.  And, heh, there were exceptions.

Well... they were also written in the 70's :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on November 13, 2017, 02:18:46 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on November 12, 2017, 09:56:06 pm

I think the Chronicles of Amber was gurps. I think it had an original system sometime in the 80s, but I think its newest incarnation is gurps.

I don't know where you got that info. The only Amber game, Amber Diceless, came out in '91.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread , Now with meaningless poll!
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 13, 2017, 07:00:34 am

Pathfinder's Ultimate Wilderness is going to be out in a couple of days, though it seems people aren't too pleased with the new Shifter class.

Expectations seem to have been all over the place for this one, and there's already a ton of homebrew versions flying around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on November 13, 2017, 07:37:25 am

It's a bit shifty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 13, 2017, 08:58:14 am

Spoiler: Amber videogame stuff (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Mephisto on November 13, 2017, 02:18:46 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on November 12, 2017, 09:56:06 pm

I think the Chronicles of Amber was gurps. I think it had an original system sometime in the 80s, but I think its newest incarnation is gurps.

I don't know where you got that info. The only Amber game, Amber Diceless, came out in '91.

I'm going to ignore what you clearly meant just to plug the neato 1985 text-with-still-images adventure videogame.  The creepy first few minutes are unfairly difficult but pretty true to the books, and might be a good way to test one's interest in the series.

There's also Zangband, an Angband roguelike with Amber-themed gameplay mechanics like trump magic and Amberite NPCs.  You can play as an Amberite and you're appropriate OP as heck.

Meanwhile in DND, I continue to be bewildered by reserve feats.  Our necromancer player found me a feat that practically lets me keep a summoned elemental around constantly.  There's lots of caveats, I just have confusing feelings about "free" casting (like cantrips in PF or 5th or whatever).  Like, Complete Arcane has something similar which requires you to outpace the spell by 7 spell levels.  This is just one spell level.

To clarify, this is Summon Elemental from Complete Mage (not Complete Arcane, some weird other thing).  It lets me reserve a 4th, 6th or 8th level summoning spell in order to summon a small, medium or large elemental.  It only lasts 4 6 or 8 rounds and has to stay within 30ft, but yeah, free casting.

This is fairly groovy since, as a Shugenja, I'm only *allowed* to summon 1d3 elementals anyway.  We get oddly limited versions of Summon Monster like that - currently just "Summon Monster 4, but it has to be 1d3 small elementals".  Small elementals are still garbage in combat, but this gives me a 100% expendable assistant instead of having to burn uses of my current highest spell slot.

Sweetening the pot, necromancer-player also found a feat that's like Augment Summoning...  Except instead of having Spell Focus (Conjuration) as a painful feat tax, Augment Elemental only works on summoned elementals.  This certainly isn't OP, but it sure fits with my limitations and lets me influence the battlefield helpfully.

I can probably actually get these next session by trading out feats I haven't used.  Sudden Maximize is 1/day and meh, and I've never remembered to apply Greater Spell Focus (Water).  Probably because I have like 1 water spell which requires a save.  In my defense, my class granted the standard Spell Focus, and I assumed I'd take more water attack spells (ice, mostly).

Also Truenamers are hilariously broken in so many ways.  We don't have one in our party, we've just been chatting about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on November 13, 2017, 09:17:27 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 13, 2017, 08:58:14 am

Also Truenamers are hilariously broken in so many ways.

Which is so sad. One of the first characters I came up with (which, thankfully, didn't see any play) was a Truenamer. So many forms of fantasy media feature the "words have power" trope that I usually enjoy.

There are a few overhauls floating around the internet that might be worth looking into, if you ever plan on statting one up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on November 13, 2017, 12:32:38 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on November 13, 2017, 09:17:27 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 13, 2017, 08:58:14 am

Also Truenamers are hilariously broken in so many ways.

Which is so sad. One of the first characters I came up with (which, thankfully, didn't see any play) was a Truenamer. So many forms of fantasy media feature the "words have power" trope that I usually enjoy.

There are a few overhauls floating around the internet that might be worth looking into, if you ever plan on statting one up.

In my opinion, the ne plus ultra of the "words have power" trope is probably Ars Magica. The rest of the system takes steps to accommodate players having alts and downtime that can complicate the mechanics, but having a set of nouns and verbs to make magic happen flexibly is spot-on for encouraging creativity and just feeling like a wizard for once.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Gentlefish on November 13, 2017, 01:46:51 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 13, 2017, 08:58:14 am

Spoiler: Amber videogame stuff (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Mephisto on November 13, 2017, 02:18:46 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on November 12, 2017, 09:56:06 pm

I think the Chronicles of Amber was gurps. I think it had an original system sometime in the 80s, but I think its newest incarnation is gurps.

I don't know where you got that info. The only Amber game, Amber Diceless, came out in '91.

I'm going to ignore what you clearly meant just to plug the neato 1985 text-with-still-images adventure videogame.  The creepy first few minutes are unfairly difficult but pretty true to the books, and might be a good way to test one's interest in the series.

There's also Zangband, an Angband roguelike with Amber-themed gameplay mechanics like trump magic and Amberite NPCs.  You can play as an Amberite and you're appropriate OP as heck.

Meanwhile in DND, I continue to be bewildered by reserve feats.  Our necromancer player found me a feat that practically lets me keep a summoned elemental around constantly.  There's lots of caveats, I just have confusing feelings about "free" casting (like cantrips in PF or 5th or whatever).  Like, Complete Arcane has something similar which requires you to outpace the spell by 7 spell levels.  This is just one spell level.

To clarify, this is Summon Elemental from Complete Mage (not Complete Arcane, some weird other thing).  It lets me reserve a 4th, 6th or 8th level summoning spell in order to summon a small, medium or large elemental.  It only lasts 4 6 or 8 rounds and has to stay within 30ft, but yeah, free casting.

This is fairly groovy since, as a Shugenja, I'm only *allowed* to summon 1d3 elementals anyway.  We get oddly limited versions of Summon Monster like that - currently just "Summon Monster 4, but it has to be 1d3 small elementals".  Small elementals are still garbage in combat, but this gives me a 100% expendable assistant instead of having to burn uses of my current highest spell slot.

Sweetening the pot, necromancer-player also found a feat that's like Augment Summoning...  Except instead of having Spell Focus (Conjuration) as a painful feat tax, Augment Elemental only works on summoned elementals.  This certainly isn't OP, but it sure fits with my limitations and lets me influence the battlefield helpfully.

I can probably actually get these next session by trading out feats I haven't used.  Sudden Maximize is 1/day and meh, and I've never remembered to apply Greater Spell Focus (Water).  Probably because I have like 1 water spell which requires a save.  In my defense, my class granted the standard Spell Focus, and I assumed I'd take more water attack spells (ice, mostly).

Also Truenamers are hilariously broken in so many ways.  We don't have one in our party, we've just been chatting about it.

...Oh man, I looked at the benefits of Augment Elemental. It would actually stack with augment summons. Hecka neat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 13, 2017, 02:04:05 pm

Yeah, necromancer's player was kinda pushing in that direction (until we had a big laugh about how he was trying to turn the healer into a minion-lord like him :P).
But, dang, Spell Focus (Conjuration) wouldn't actually be useless when I'm "healing" undead in combat.  It'll probably be a few months before I get to level 12 and could complete the combo, but it might be worth it...

At that point it'd be a medium elemental, usually earth for (+12 1d8+11) instead of (+8 1d8+7).  +1 att and dam due to its Earth Mastery, and it can earthglide through natural ground...  That actually sounds relevant even for level 12.  Hardly a heavy hitter, but free, and will last 6 rounds per casting.  I'd still be fulfilling my main roles of buffing (barkskin and shield of faith scale WELL!) and healing/restoring just as well!

And my primary purpose: finding any excuse to cast Create Water

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: deathpunch578 on November 13, 2017, 03:28:13 pm

So, I don't know if people are interested. But, here is a character from an old campaign (DnD), his name was Torjn Wartooth (barbarian with some monk stuff, don't remember the exact levels or stats).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So Torjn started from my DM letting me do some dumb things, like having my character be half tiefling and half aasimar (the aasimar being born from a death god). Basically what I always said happened was the god and the demon tried to put their influence into Torjn resulting in the most angry and most metal character I've ever made.
notable events

• kicking down a stone wall in a necromancer's tower (crushing the necromancer under the rubble)
• passing every single intimidation check (every time I did a check my group gave me a different die, just to make sure I wasn't cheating)
• going into a pit fight and ripping the opponent's spine out in the first attack (a natural 20 followed by max damage(2 d8s) and for the crit damage, it was another max damage)

I'm sure I'm missing something huge, but this was two years ago and I lost the character sheet for him

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 13, 2017, 08:43:09 pm

I just found out a way to get a 5th level character to pass a DC 20 Persuasion check with a die roll of 2.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 13, 2017, 09:57:56 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on November 13, 2017, 12:32:38 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on November 13, 2017, 09:17:27 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on November 13, 2017, 08:58:14 am

Also Truenamers are hilariously broken in so many ways.

Which is so sad. One of the first characters I came up with (which, thankfully, didn't see any play) was a Truenamer. So many forms of fantasy media feature the "words have power" trope that I usually enjoy.

There are a few overhauls floating around the internet that might be worth looking into, if you ever plan on statting one up.

In my opinion, the ne plus ultra of the "words have power" trope is probably Ars Magica. The rest of the system takes steps to accommodate players having alts and downtime that can complicate the mechanics, but having a set of nouns and verbs to make magic happen flexibly is spot-on for encouraging creativity and just feeling like a wizard for once.

I swear it's pure coincidence that we've just had a whole bunch of posts about Amber, but I mentioned the concept of lynchpins before, which are right on point with this.

Amber has Power Words, but they're a very limited form of magic.  Powerful, but not versatile.  Very simple and direct.  Fundamental stuff.

Then there's Sorcery. 

The idea with sorcery in Amber is magic is a set of instructions woven with energy.  Depending on the complexity and power of the spell, they can take from minutes to days to prepare, and can do literally anything given the requisite research and prep time.  But this makes spellcasting really difficult to apply practically.  Most situations where you need a fireball don't allow you several hours of prep.

So in the Amber universe, spells can be "hung".  They're described as a weaving of power and information.  Energy with a set of instructions.  You can gather that energy with an incomplete set of instructions, and store it in a receptable, to be completed when you actually want the spell effect to happen.  The gaps you leave in the instruction set are referred to as "lynchpins".  If you prepare your spell cleverly, you only recite a couple words, and unleash the effect of the spell you had prepared.

The tricky thing is knowing exactly how incomplete to leave the spell, because they have to be incredibly specific.  The spell's instructions have to include every detail of what, when, where, why, and how.  If you don't leave lynchpins open for things like the target of the spell, the duration or termination conditions, the tailoring to the magical properties of the world in which you're casting it, etc, then you risk not being able to adapt the spell to the situation in which you need it.  But if you leave too many variables open to close up in order to cast it, then your spell isn't really appropriate for the kind of situations where you likely need them.  You need to prepare them cleverly.  And they require maintenance, as hung spells fade over time.

Spoiler: Flavor Text on Amber Sorcery, taken from the Blood of Amber novel (click to show/hide)

I lined up the spoken signatures and edited them into a spell.  Suhuy would probably have gotten it down even shorter, but there is a point of diminishing returns on these things, and I had mine figured to where it should work if my main guesses were correct.  So I collated it and assembled it.  It was fairly long -- too long to rattle off in its entirety if I where in the hurry I probably would be.  Studying it, I saw that three lynchpins would probably hold it, though four would be better.

I summoned the Logrus and extended my tongue into its moving pattern.  Then I spoke the spell, slowly and clearly, leaving out the four key words I had chosen to omit.  The woods grew absolutely still about me as the words rang out.
  The spell hung before me like a crippled butterfly of sound and color, trapped within the synesthetic web of my personal vision of the Logrus, to come again when I summoned it, to be released when I uttered the four omitted words.

Spoiler: Another Flavor Text, also from Blood of Amber (click to show/hide)

... I resolved, though, to lay in a decent supply of spells the first chance I got, both offensive and defensive, on the order of the one I had primed against my guardian entity.  The trouble is that it can take several days of solitude to work a really decent array of them out properly, enact them and rehearse their releases to the point where you can spring them at a moment's notice -- and then they have a tendency to start decaying after a week or so.  Sometimes they last longer and sometimes less long, depending both on the amount of energy you're willing to invest in them and on the magical climate of the particular shadow in which you're functioning.  It's a lot of bother unless you're sure you're going to need them within a certain period of time.  On the other hand, a good sorcerer should have one attack, one defense, and one escape spell hanging around at all times.  But I'm generally somewhat lazy, not to mention pretty easygoing, and I didn't see any need for that sort of setup until recently.  And recently, I hadn't had much time to be about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Jimmy on November 14, 2017, 06:10:57 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 13, 2017, 08:43:09 pm

I just found out a way to get a 5th level character to pass a DC 20 Persuasion check with a die roll of 2.

We've got a guy like this in our Pathfinder Society game. He's running a Vigilante with an absolutely ridiculous +10 on his Diplomacy rolls, as a 1st level character. Auto-wins any social encounter for our group.

The only trouble is that nobody can pronounce his damned name. Serously, who calls their character Yrren? Mostly just gets pronounced as "urine".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 14, 2017, 07:24:46 am

Ear-wren?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 14, 2017, 10:12:45 am

Quote from: Jimmy on November 14, 2017, 06:10:57 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 13, 2017, 08:43:09 pm

I just found out a way to get a 5th level character to pass a DC 20 Persuasion check with a die roll of 2.

We've got a guy like this in our Pathfinder Society game. He's running a Vigilante with an absolutely ridiculous +10 on his Diplomacy rolls, as a 1st level character. Auto-wins any social encounter for our group.

Right now I'm looking at a modifier of +16+1d4+1d8. That's only if I can prepare beforehand, and only once before a short rest, but that still means I can pass a DC 40 Persuasion check without a natural 20.
Are there additional things beside Guidance, Bardic Insipiration, and Enhance Ability that would help with a Persuasion check that a 5th level party would have access to?

Unrelated, Can one take Dash as a regular action, and a bonus action?
If so, do you move 3x, or 4x your speed?

In case it is not clear, I'm talking about 5E Dnd.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 14, 2017, 10:25:48 am

Quote from: Jimmy on November 14, 2017, 06:10:57 am

We've got a guy like this in our Pathfinder Society game. He's running a Vigilante with an absolutely ridiculous +10 on his Diplomacy rolls, as a 1st level character. Auto-wins any social encounter for our group.

The only trouble is that nobody can pronounce his damned name. Serously, who calls their character Yrren? Mostly just gets pronounced as "urine".

Goblins are great for this kind of thing with Stealth. They have a +4 size bonus, a +4 racial bonus, add +4 from having a single rank in it as a class skill and anywhere from +4 to +6 in Dex (since they do get +4 Dexterity as a racial bonus).

I played a Witch and rolled +21 at 3rd level or something ridiculous like that, and it doesn't even require you to particularly go out of your way to do it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on November 14, 2017, 05:06:25 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 14, 2017, 10:12:45 am

Quote from: Jimmy on November 14, 2017, 06:10:57 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 13, 2017, 08:43:09 pm

I just found out a way to get a 5th level character to pass a DC 20 Persuasion check with a die roll of 2.

We've got a guy like this in our Pathfinder Society game. He's running a Vigilante with an absolutely ridiculous +10 on his Diplomacy rolls, as a 1st level character. Auto-wins any social encounter for our group.

Right now I'm looking at a modifier of +16+1d4+1d8. That's only if I can prepare beforehand, and only once before a short rest, but that still means I can pass a DC 40 Persuasion check without a natural 20.
Are there additional things beside Guidance, Bardic Insipiration, and Enhance Ability that would help with a Persuasion check that a 5th level party would have access to?

Unrelated, Can one take Dash as a regular action, and a bonus action?
If so, do you move 3x, or 4x your speed?

In case it is not clear, I'm talking about 5E Dnd.

I was pretty sure this was impossible, but then I took a look through my new copy of Xanathar's Guide:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You're playing and Oath of Redemption paladin, aren't you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on November 14, 2017, 07:53:55 pm

I thought that one wasn't out yet?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on November 14, 2017, 10:38:08 pm

Quote from: scriver on November 14, 2017, 07:53:55 pm

I thought that one wasn't out yet?

It's available early from game stores as of the 10th.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: MrWiggles on November 14, 2017, 11:59:32 pm

Alrighty.
So we're playing two games. We're playing Save World Ripper, 1st ed. And we're playing Pulp Call of Cthulhu.

So the last session of Ripper, was kinda fruastrating. Rippers for those who dont know, is Victorian actiony horror setting in the savage world system. None of the characters that started the campaign are social. Which has been kinda of challenging. We can't really do the investigation and research part very well. And thats kinda of an interesting struggle but not bad or limiting.

When we started playing, we were all hit kinda hard by the Status stat. Status isnt part of the general Savage world. Its the game attempt, and rather poor one, to abstract the prim proper social setting in the victorian ages. And meant to also enforce that the monster fighting should be done in secret. With how the game is set up, is terribly easy to loose Status. Which effects how folks treat you in society and it also effects social rolls. And it was very hard to regain any lost status. And also status loss was instant, which struck the playing group as kinda of way to silly. I pulled out my sword cane in rural town in South England, and then the entirity of Victorian world, knows I made a bad move. 'Perently the system they have in Rippers 2nd does a better attempt at this system, with including it with this favor system. You gain favors for fighting monsters, and you can use favors for equipment and if you do something to lose status you can use favor to defend against it and only lose status when you dont have favors to buy it off. We collectively as a playerbase has decided to not deal with that aspect. And if we were we'd probably all be at zero status anyway.

The actual fruastrating part is money.  So the Rippers give you a stiphen. Its just not a lot. Its 10 pounds a month for Novice and 20 pounds for Season. And you know, lots of things cost a shilling. Or 0.05 pounds. So petty cash isnt sooo much the problem. Its other things. Like travel. We have to pay all travel out of pocket. So we had to travel from Paris, France to Cario, Egypt. First Class travel was 12 pounds. Steerage, was 3 pounds. Traveling in the most meager fashion, was almost a quarter of a month wages.

And like so lots of things beyond the travel, and expenses for investigating are just expensive. Like all special weapons for the Rippers are expensive. Like the Ripper Claws, are 3 pounds. 6 pounds if you want it in a special materiel that can actually hurt the monsters. As most of the monsters in the game take half damage from mundane damage and on top of that have 8 or 12 toughness. So to hurt it with a gun, shooting normal bullets require doing like 25 damage. And on 2d6, that doesn't happen too often. Savage World has exploding die. So it can happen.

The Implaler which is this this oversize crossbow that fires stakes is ten pounds. To get even decently equiped takes a lot of money.
And of course traveling with any kinds of guns, let alone the more exotic kind are illegal if discover and would give me a status hit. The GM so far, hasnt been too hard on traveling with guns. My character has a streamer chest that is his arsenal.


So we investigate and find ourselves in Cario. And we have a map of a Necropolis, which is somewhere off in the middle of the desert. 2 weeks one way journey. So just for traveling you need one month of food, ontop of the food needed to stay on site, and tents, and camels. Food for a month is 15 pounds. Camels are a 4 pounds. And the Necropolis is burried, so we tried to figure out how much a 2 month expedition would cost with like a dozen labors to do the digging and stuff. And it was like close to 1000 pounds.
We couldnt do the adventure because our characters couldnt afford to do the adventure. And we tried to do side jobs, and but most of that pay 1 shilling a day. And food for a day cost 1 shilling, so effectively nothing.

One of the players was just like, "So, we go back to London. We're to poor to adventure." and the GM brought up a good point that folks in this time period, would spend small fortune to do treks into the heart of Africa.
And we're not disagreeing that the prices are unfair. They're just so far our of reach that we cant really hope to do it without some sorta of artificial kick. Which we did get. Through shanigans, we got the work crew and food, and I and the player that said we should go back to London was banned from Cario and maybe all of Egypt.

So Rippers are meant to be this world wide organization with Lodges through the world. And so I go and try to find one, as there 'perently no yellow page listing for them. Not even at other lodges. It 'perently all word of mouth.

So I manage to find the only british pub in Cario. And so I go to it, and I talk to Al. And I try to be you know, subtle. I talk to him. "This reminds me of a place I feel at home in London. A great lodge that I found lots of supporting folks." And like Al wasn't giving me anything. No acknowledgment. And so like, maybe I was being tooooo subtle. My character with no social skill. So like, I namedrop hellsing. And still get no indication of what I want. And so I try to wait until the bar closes. And the bar doesn't close. Open 24 hours. Fine. So, like out of just out of ideas, before I just start a bar fight (as my character has the major disad for Voilence), manage to drag Al to a backroom, where I can just speak plainly to him. And yea it turn out to be a fucking Ripper Lodge. Like pulling teeth.
So none of our group has tracking or surival, so getting to the site was a challenge. Took 3 weeks. Awesome. We're probably going to starve out in the desert. And on our first night, we got attack and lost 3 out of 12 workders. Which is kinda of mix blessing as we probably dont have enough food for them... And I got to kill two of them motherfuckers.

And the Pulp CoC game is pretty fun. We're on a Steam cruise coming from San Fransico to Thialand with a stop in Hawaii. There a rigid class structure with the 1st class 2nd class ect ect. And the ship crew are blocks to us from going above our class.  And so in that game, a new player, and new to rpg in genera that seem a bit younger, has been interesting. Its interesting finding his hole in knowledge. Liek we have a light and quick conversation explaining what a blackjack was. And the player himself isnt very familar with the 1930s, or history in general. Hes asking questions, being receptive to answers. Like we had to explain what a ship purser was. There is a news reporter, and he wants to write a paper that'll him work for Hearst. No idea, who Hearst was. And we live in California. Hearst Castle is a national landmark.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 15, 2017, 10:34:50 am

Quote

I was pretty sure this was impossible, but then I took a look through my new copy of Xanathar's Guide:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You're playing an Oath of Redemption paladin, aren't you?

Yes, I am. I don't have Xanathar's guide, though. I just took it directly from Unearthed Arcana. Is the final product different than the Unearthed Arcana version?

One more question, can I dash as both a bonus and regular action in the same turn, and what would my speed be for that turn be if I can?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Biowraith on November 15, 2017, 11:56:37 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 15, 2017, 10:34:50 am

One more question, can I dash as both a bonus and regular action in the same turn, and what would my speed be for that turn be if I can?

Only certain classes/paths* can dash as a bonus action, but there's nothing in the rules saying you can only dash once per turn so barring GM intervention those cases can indeed dash with both regular and bonus action on the same turn.  You'd have triple your normal movement (after any modifiers) that turn, e.g. if you normally have 30ft move, you could move 90ft on a double-dash turn (30ft move + 30ft 'regular' dash + 30ft 'bonus' dash).

*if I remember correctly it's level 2+ rogue or monk (costs ki) and level 3+ totem barbarian if they took path of the eagle at level 3

(fwiw, citations: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/02/10/dash-twice/ and https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/01/the-fastest-rogue/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 15, 2017, 02:39:26 pm

It said that it doubles your speed, so I thought it would maybe quadruple.

Does Cunning Action give you options for your bonus action, or does it give you an additional action that can only be used for Hide, Dash, and that third option?

Does Action Surge also give you an extra bonus action? The wording is a bit strange.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Biowraith on November 15, 2017, 03:39:20 pm

Cunning Action is the former, options for your bonus action.

Action Surge does not give an extra bonus action, only an extra regular action (the "on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action" is just clarifying that it is in addition to what you'd normally have).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on November 15, 2017, 04:12:50 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 15, 2017, 02:39:26 pm

It said that it doubles your speed, so I thought it would maybe quadruple.

The description for the Dash action makes no use of the word "double" or anything related to multiplication. It says it you gain extra movement equal to your speed. Movement is not the same thing as speed. Movement is how fast you are going, whereas speed is the baseline of how fast you can go. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/834503511819685888) So usually your movement is equal to your speed, but, since Dash gives you additional movement equal to your speed, it's not actually doubling but an addition equal to a variable that happens to equal the variable that you're adding to.

That last part may have been a little confusing (and possibly wrong. It's been a while since I took any math classes), but this difference between speed and movement (which I'm not sure is ever actually called out specifically in the book, but can be inferred from the rules and is referenced in the Tweet above by the Lead Rules Designer), means that something that changes your speed and something that uses up movement are two different things. So, for example, standing up from prone takes an amount of movement equal to half your speed (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/803403737632935936). So, if you took the dash action on a turn that you got up from being prone, and your speed was, say, 30 feet, you could spend 15 feet of movement to get up, and then you could move 45 feet after that (since Dashing gives you 30 feet of movement in addition to your normal 30 feet, which is 60 feet, and you subtracted 15 feet to get up (half your speed)). This works because being prone doesn't affect your speed, but, rather, requires you to speed 1 extra foot of movement for every foot you crawl while prone. Normally this works the same as your speed being halved, but not always, this being one case.

Quote

Does Cunning Action give you options for your bonus action, or does it give you an additional action that can only be used for Hide, Dash, and that third option?

It gives you uses for your bonus action. You only get one, unless you have some kind of feature or spell that explicitly says you gain an additional bonus action.

Quote

Does Action Surge also give you an extra bonus action? The wording is a bit strange.

"Action Surge grants one action, not a bonus action." (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/537628565379219456?lang=en) The wording of "possible bonus action" refers to the fact that bonus actions are things that can only be used when you have a spell or feature that lets you do something as a bonus action, so you might not always have a bonus action to use.

Preedit: Ninja'd somewhat on the latter two questions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 16, 2017, 05:15:12 pm

Thanks for answering my questions.

Anyway, I'm going to raise my paladin's Dexterity so he can eventually get the second highest nonmagical AC of 22, but in order to use Dexterity as my attack stat, and also use Warrior of Reconciliation, I need to wield a Simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage, and it needs to have finesse. I don't think the 5E player's handbook has such a weapon.
Is there one in a supplement?
Two more questions, does the Xanathar's Guide version of the Redemption Paladin have differences between itself and the original Unearthed Arcana version?
Is taking 3 more levels of Rogue so I get an ability improvement one level sooner worth it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on November 17, 2017, 12:35:31 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 16, 2017, 05:15:12 pm

Thanks for answering my questions.

Anyway, I'm going to raise my paladin's Dexterity so he can eventually get the second highest nonmagical AC of 22, but in order to use Dexterity as my attack stat, and also use Warrior of Reconciliation, I need to wield a Simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage, and it needs to have finesse. I don't think the 5E player's handbook has such a weapon.
Is there one in a supplement?

I don't know of any such weapon, and I doubt such a thing exists. Finesse and bludgeoning aren't exactly complementary concepts.

Quote

Two more questions, does the Xanathar's Guide version of the Redemption Paladin have differences between itself and the original Unearthed Arcana version?

Looking at it, it looks like Xanathar's Guide dropped the Armor of Peace and Warrior of Reconciliation features, changed some of the Oath spells, and the Channel Divinity features are a bit better (the bonus to Persuasion checks now lasts 10 minutes instead of one and can be used with all checks made at that time, instead of just one. The other one can now be used on any enemy in range who dealt damage to someone other than you, rather than just ones that made melee attacks). And for Aura of the Guardian, damage you take on other player's behalf can't be reduced in any way, and the range that it can be used at increases to 30 feet at 18th level, like most paladin auras.

Quote

Is taking 3 more levels of Rogue so I get an ability improvement one level sooner worth it?

Probably not for its own sake. Usually when people talk about ability score improvements and multiclassing, their concern is more about losing out on them because they took a break on one class at such at time that they would almost get an ASI from that class and it would be a while until they got one from the other. If it's only one level, it's probably not a big deal, and you should be more worried about delaying paladin class features. That said, rogue has some nice class features of its own, so it somewhat depends on what you're going for, exactly. Usually, though, you only want a few levels in one class and then all the rest in your main class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: SalmonGod on November 17, 2017, 12:41:53 am

Quote from: Kadzar on November 17, 2017, 12:35:31 am

I don't know of any such weapon, and I doubt such a thing exists. Finesse and bludgeoning aren't exactly complementary concepts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQNkcSGFes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQNkcSGFes)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 17, 2017, 01:51:31 am

I'd suggest a sap.  They don't seem to be in 5e's SRD, but they're light weapons in 3.5 (which mostly means weapon finesse can be used).
However, they're (for some reason) martial instead of simple.  I think that's dumb, personally.

Light maces in 3.5 would apply - simple, light/finesse, and bludgeoning.  5e says maces and light hammers aren't finesse weapons, so meh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 17, 2017, 07:57:31 am

Saps would probably count as clubs in 5e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: scriver on November 17, 2017, 08:29:09 am

Yeah. One of my homerules for 5th ed would definitively be "Clubs get finesse".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Rolan7 on November 17, 2017, 10:05:58 am

I suppose 5e clubs should get finesse, since they cost a silver.  Unlike 3.5e clubs which are literally free, implying they're improvised chunks of wood, for a silver you should expect a properly balanced weapon.
Personally I would port the "light mace" from 3.5 (5 has mace, and light hammer, no light mace).

Even better, grant finesse to quarterstaffs!  They seem like the perfect example of finessed bludgeoning (Kill Bill aside).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mephisto on November 17, 2017, 10:09:04 am

I'm running an entirely improvised game for some coworkers on Slack. It started with a premise of "You're Earth's first extrasolar colonists. You arrive only to find that some later colonists beat you there. Go do things."

Now we've got vaguely racist Noble Savage sapient trees that communicate via flashing lights. And I've got to come up with names for them. The current prevailing idea is that they're such Noble Savages that they don't actually have a name for themselves and instead took on the word that the first human they saw used to describe them.

I recall reading this sci-fi story long, long about tiny aliens that resembled butterflies. The first person to see them, an individual from some Asian country (sorry, this was a long time ago), uttered the word for butterfly in his native language when she saw them and the name stuck. In this world, that person was Chinese and these sapient trees now go by the name Shu.

How did I find myself in this situation?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 17, 2017, 02:21:31 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on November 17, 2017, 12:35:31 am

Looking at it, it looks like Xanathar's Guide dropped the Armor of Peace and Warrior of Reconciliation features, changed some of the Oath spells, and the Channel Divinity features are a bit better (the bonus to Persuasion checks now lasts 10 minutes instead of one and can be used with all checks made at that time, instead of just one. The other one can now be used on any enemy in range who dealt damage to someone other than you, rather than just ones that made melee attacks). And for Aura of the Guardian, damage you take on other player's behalf can't be reduced in any way, and the range that it can be used at increases to 30 feet at 18th level, like most paladin auras.

Well, sounds like if I use the official version, I don't need a finesse simple bludgeon. No Armor of Peace? Damn it, no 22 AC for me...
What does it have instead of Armor of Peace, and Warrior of Reconciliation?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on November 17, 2017, 05:20:39 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 17, 2017, 02:21:31 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on November 17, 2017, 12:35:31 am

Looking at it, it looks like Xanathar's Guide dropped the Armor of Peace and Warrior of Reconciliation features, changed some of the Oath spells, and the Channel Divinity features are a bit better (the bonus to Persuasion checks now lasts 10 minutes instead of one and can be used with all checks made at that time, instead of just one. The other one can now be used on any enemy in range who dealt damage to someone other than you, rather than just ones that made melee attacks). And for Aura of the Guardian, damage you take on other player's behalf can't be reduced in any way, and the range that it can be used at increases to 30 feet at 18th level, like most paladin auras.

Well, sounds like if I use the official version, I don't need a finesse simple bludgeon. No Armor of Peace? Damn it, no 22 AC for me...
What does it have instead of Armor of Peace, and Warrior of Reconciliation?

Just the oath spells and the channel divinity features, which did seem like a nerf from Unearthed Arcana, but it seems like all the paladin subclasses follow that same format.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: pikachu17 on November 17, 2017, 05:36:47 pm

Can you rage while polymorphed/wild shaped?

Also, in response to the comment above, why did they give it extra 3rd level features in the Unearthed Arcana version, then?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Mini on November 17, 2017, 06:09:06 pm

Wildshape has a specific clause that says you keep and can use class features (and etc) as long as "the new form is physically capable of doing so". I find it difficult to believe that being a bear would make you physically incapable of becoming angry/going into a battle trance/whatever else you have decided rage actually is, therefore you can rage while wildshaped.

Polymorph doesn't have a bunch of exceptions to replacing everything with a beast's, so your rage (along with every other class feature you have) is replaced, and therefore you can not enter a rage and any existing rage ends.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on November 17, 2017, 06:34:57 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 17, 2017, 05:36:47 pm

Also, in response to the comment above, why did they give it extra 3rd level features in the Unearthed Arcana version, then?

I can't speak for designer's intent, but Unearthed Arcana is meant to be playtest material and isn't intended to be as well-balanced as officially published material. It's more about putting stuff out there and seeing what people think of it. It might even be that it was dropped because a lot of players thought it was over-powered.

So long as you're not playing Adventurer's League, you might be able to convince your DM to let you include those class features, or at least continue using the Unearthed Arcana version.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:07:24 am

I have just realized that the scorpion is horribly under-represented as a sci-fi tank/mech design.  I must now stat scorpion-bots up for RIFTS, thankfully it has an existing design that I can use as a template for my own hideous eight-legged abominations.

Let the scorpioning begin!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on November 18, 2017, 12:17:13 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:07:24 am

I have just realized that the scorpion is horribly under-represented as a sci-fi tank/mech design.  I must now stat scorpion-bots up for RIFTS, thankfully it has an existing design that I can use as a template for my own hideous eight-legged abominations.

Let the scorpioning begin!

More generally, anything with more than two legs is underrepresented as a mecha design, let alone 6+; everyone seems to want to use bipeds, even for things like self-propelled artillery where you'd logically want the thing's center of mass as low to the ground as possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:32:04 am

Actually, the height of the center of mass is pretty irrelevant to artillery and tank design, the real issue is footprint, which you want to be as wide and deep as is reasonable in order to prevent it's weight (which is how it actually offsets recoil, though spreading the force also helps) from causing it to sink.  That said, it could be argued that by increasing the footprint you are effectively lowering the center of gravity, but that isn't completely true.

Six legs would probably be optimal for legged artillery, but four (with a wide enough stance) would probably work for an AFV.

As ridiculous as it sounds, there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a two-legged gun carriage unit, narrow profile, variable firing height and vantage, some terrain advantages.  Not really enough to offset the massive expense and complexity, but still good points.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on November 18, 2017, 12:34:58 am

But with more than 2 legs you can't do robo martial arts. And they don't look like giant dudes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:37:24 am

Just learn multi-legged kung-fu. Problem solved.  Bugs are cooler than people anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Egan_BW on November 18, 2017, 12:39:07 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:37:24 am

Bugs are cooler than people anyway.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:40:42 am

Your request for citation has been acknowledged and disregarded.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Trekkin on November 18, 2017, 12:54:43 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:32:04 am

Actually, the height of the center of mass is pretty irrelevant to artillery and tank design, the real issue is footprint, which you want to be as wide and deep as is reasonable in order to prevent it's weight (which is how it actually offsets recoil, though spreading the force also helps) from causing it to sink.  That said, it could be argued that by increasing the footprint you are effectively lowering the center of gravity, but that isn't completely true.

Six legs would probably be optimal for legged artillery, but four (with a wide enough stance) would probably work for an AFV.

As ridiculous as it sounds, there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a two-legged gun carriage unit, narrow profile, variable firing height and vantage, some terrain advantages.  Not really enough to offset the massive expense and complexity, but still good points.

Center of mass matters a great deal for movement. The lower the center of mass, the higher an incline a vehicle of equal footprint can handle without tipping; since one of the most frequently parroted arguments in favor of mecha is that legged vehicles can handle rougher terrain, it makes sense to go as low as possible with the drive unit in light of the guns to be put on its back. Of course, you can just make the vehicle longer or wider, but that means stressing the legs more with the additional mass and needing wider paths down which to travel.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on November 18, 2017, 01:08:11 am

Honestly, tanks can go over terrain pretty well, and likely much, much faster than any legged vehicle could manage. If your setting involves mecha, I'd not be worrying about the physics behind it, because the point is clearly more about the GIANT ROBOTS WITH GUNS.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on November 18, 2017, 01:12:23 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on November 18, 2017, 01:08:11 am

Honestly, tanks can go over terrain pretty well, and likely much, much faster than any legged vehicle could manage. If your setting involves mecha, I'd not be worrying about the physics behind it, because the point is clearly more about the GIANT ROBOTS WITH GUNS.

Well, yeah. On that note, one-legged mecha don't get much attention either. Where are the cannons on robotic pogo sticks?

Heck, go with a laser and you can have a giant weaponized Pixar lamp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mech#4 on November 18, 2017, 01:52:50 am

I think one legged robots tend to be in Megaman and Sonic games.

There's a scorpion robot in W40k, The Brass Scorpion. (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99590102091_ChaosBrassScorpion01.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Axes or railguns?
Post by: Kadzar on November 18, 2017, 03:43:09 am

Quote from: Trekkin on November 18, 2017, 12:54:43 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 12:32:04 am

Actually, the height of the center of mass is pretty irrelevant to artillery and tank design, the real issue is footprint, which you want to be as wide and deep as is reasonable in order to prevent it's weight (which is how it actually offsets recoil, though spreading the force also helps) from causing it to sink.  That said, it could be argued that by increasing the footprint you are effectively lowering the center of gravity, but that isn't completely true.

Six legs would probably be optimal for legged artillery, but four (with a wide enough stance) would probably work for an AFV.

As ridiculous as it sounds, there are some reasonable arguments in favor of a two-legged gun carriage unit, narrow profile, variable firing height and vantage, some terrain advantages.  Not really enough to offset the massive expense and complexity, but still good points.

Center of mass matters a great deal for movement. The lower the center of mass, the higher an incline a vehicle of equal footprint can handle without tipping; since one of the most frequently parroted arguments in favor of mecha is that legged vehicles can handle rougher terrain, it makes sense to go as low as possible with the drive unit in light of the guns to be put on its back. Of course, you can just make the vehicle longer or wider, but that means stressing the legs more with the additional mass and needing wider paths down which to travel.

Clearly the most optimized mecha is some sort of scorpiod centaur.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on November 18, 2017, 05:53:34 am

(https://wasteland.gamepedia.com/media/wasteland.gamepedia.com/3/32/Wasteland_scorpitron_2_0_by_andreewallin-d4w6776.jpg?)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 09:49:44 am

Actually, the Wasteland 2 scorpion bot is what made me think about this issue in the first place, it's a very cool design.

Trekkin, I want to address a couple of points about all-terrain/armored vehicle design here:

    The stance of your vehicle must be broad and fairly short, preferably as close to a square as possible, and your center of gravity must be relatively high, or you aren't crossing any kind of broken terrain period, the ideal configuration is approximately pyramidal. with most of the weight concentrated in the upper half of the envelope.  This allows your vehicle to more easily navigate across uneven objects, like shattered buildings, rocks, vehicles, etc.
    This is less applicable to artillery platforms as they are intended to be deployed on relatively even terrain so they can actually use their armament, since their weapon is typically not rotatable (rotatable mobile artillery is more common recently) your ideal shape is more of a rectagonal pyramid with the peak near the back (rear third or quarter) where the bulk of the weight is.
    In the case of tanks, you want a broad short rectangle with the action of the cannon positioned as close to directly above your center of gravity as possible, your center of gravity will ideally be directly below the turret at the ring, about mid-way through the actual body (and around two thirds of the way UP the height of the vehicle), then you want around a quarter to a third of your overall height to be airspace below the hull.

For an armored walker you would ideally want any heavy armaments to be located in a similar fashion, their action should be centered above your c.o.g. and they should follow the above stated pyramid ideal, if you wanted to build a humanoid platform, you would need it to have the human advantage of a variable stance, and firing any sort of heavy weapon would probably necessitate it immobilizing itself in a crouched position, or that the weapon be placed at or near its waist level (which would mitigate most of the variable firing height I noted in my previous post).

I've studied this pretty extensively.  But I should really stop derailing my own topic because this is mostly irrelevant to D&D/PnP games, If you or anyone else wants to continue we might be able to squeeze this discussion into either the tech thread or science thread, or maybe even re-purpose the Suidobashi vs. Megabots thread.

On topic: Thri-kreen Monks.  OP in so many wonderful ways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on November 18, 2017, 10:10:43 am

I've been reading Yggdrasill (don't comment on the spelling, that's how the game spells it). I kind of want to run a modern-day game featuring emerald ash borers now. One of the two original humans, Ask, was made from an ash trunk. The world tree itself is also an ash.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on November 18, 2017, 10:32:03 am

Ask just mean Ash.

And yes, that means the ur human was a Pokemon trainer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 18, 2017, 10:36:42 am

And Ash had a Heracross, further support for the new title.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on November 18, 2017, 10:00:12 pm

I've always had a soft spot for the Red/Blue series, since I played it as a child. I heard there's a PnP RPG out there, but that it's a total slog for the GM to prep stats for encounters.

One thing I'd love to see would be a Nuzlocke style PnP RPG version of the Kanto game. I already have my own headcanon for it too (not posting unless under request to avoid derail).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on November 18, 2017, 10:15:45 pm

We were talking about pet monster anime games over on RPG Geek. It was revealed that Cute and Fuzzy Cockfighting Seizure Monsters (https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/47494/cute-and-fuzzy-seizure-monsters) is still one of the best. If you're into BESM, give it a look.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on November 18, 2017, 11:44:53 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on November 18, 2017, 10:00:12 pm

I've always had a soft spot for the Red/Blue series, since I played it as a child. I heard there's a PnP RPG out there, but that it's a total slog for the GM to prep stats for encounters.

One thing I'd love to see would be a Nuzlocke style PnP RPG version of the Kanto game. I already have my own headcanon for it too (not posting unless under request to avoid derail).

You know, this is one of those universes that gets brought up every so often around my gaming group(s), and the biggest obstacle to running it has always been that nobody wants to actually play through capturing animals and making them fight for money. I'm curious, now, what such a game would look like without the fighting. What would (human) PCs do?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 19, 2017, 01:25:05 am

Probably other forms of competitive sports featuring pet monsters, racing, tug-of-war, other non-destructive contests maybe?  It might feel bad to capture animals to make them fight, but I'd bet people would take less issue with making what amounts to a dogsled team.

They might also use their creatures for support purposes, search and rescue, law enforcement, aiding the community.  I'm sure there are many applications that wouldn't involve combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: BlackFlyme on November 19, 2017, 02:27:23 am

Wild Empathy is great for catching animals and unintelligent magical beasts.

My current Pokemon team consists of an Advanced Bulette, a Hydra, and the Loch Ness Monster. I just caught the Hydra in tonight's session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 19, 2017, 05:12:18 am

My favorite D&D Pokemon concept has to be an arcane spellcaster Baleful Polymorphing their enemies and collecting them for posterity/making them fight to the death when space runs low.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrWiggles on November 19, 2017, 06:03:02 pm

So this Saturday was Savage World Rippers.

We're in the middle of thje egyptian desert. And we're trying to dig out this necropolis. We were attacked again, and the workers we had left, left.
We manage to dig out the door. And we found a key hole. We didnt have a key. So I shoved this work horse of a crowbar into the key hole and just fucking busted that thing out. That didnt really help things. But thanks to exploding dice, even though we're untrained and dont have the tools, we manage to pick the busted lock.

And so we went toward our doom. And we went into the tombs. Down and down and down we went. And eventually we found a big ass mummy. We fought the mummy. It was not going well. As well, it takes half damage and has like 10 toughness. And is even more tough toward piercing weapons. And for our group anyway, since we have to hide our weapons, is the sword cane. And sword canes are rapiers. Pokey weapons, not slashing weapons. I have Ripper claws which do slashing but didnt bring'em with me.

Bob, our caster, just decided to breath fire on the thing. And we manage to kill it. Woot! So we continue back down. And we found some fucking treasure! This treasure is with Bob. This is important.  Bob also has scrolls with our next clues. Also important.

So we went down and down and down and found the second imporant mummy. This one we decided to not fuck around with. We open the top of her stone coffin and just breath fire into it, asap.

And we were fighting. Poor.y The mummy manage to grapple and grip the neck of one ouf PCs. SO I and nother players we rushed to his aid and manage to break the grapple. And Bob was breathing fire, shooting lighting, and like fuckin nothing.

So. I pulled out a stick of dynamite. And I wailing about trying to jab the stick into the mummy. The unsaid plan was to get it stuck into the mummy, retreat, bob breaths it on fire and the mummy blows up. We win.

So after a few rounds I manage to stick in the boom-boom. Then the mummy attack me, and I was incapcitated. And we manage to shove the mummy back into the stone coffin, and bob lights it on fire. We close the lid.

The fuse is lit.

We try to dog pile the lid, but we lost initiative, so we were able to. And she blows the lid off. We all back away. Bob leaps on the mummy. And grappling onto mummy, keeping it in the coffin. The boom, goes off. And it does.... 2d6 damage. And the mummy is fine. Bob is fine. Dynamite in Savage World is pretty lack luster.
 And one of the character does a smarts roll, and determines that we havent really hurt the mummy at all. So Bob is holding the mummy off, and the rest of the PCs retreat. I took a hit to my agility attribute, and went down from a d8 to a d6. Man that sucks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Gentlefish on November 20, 2017, 01:35:02 am

Oh man, Ultimate Wilderness is a beaut of a book. I can't wait to be able to play a shifter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on November 21, 2017, 10:19:38 am

I have realized that the Battle Master's Commander's Strike can allow assassins another critical hitting attack. If that assassin had already hit with his sneak attack his last turn, does he get another one if the Strike hits? And does the supiority dice also double/triple in a crit?

And unrelated, does Mage Armor/Draconic Resilience/Armor of Peace stack with unarmored defense?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2017, 04:18:06 pm

First one, don't know.

Second one: No. Standard AC,  Unarmoured Defense and Draconic armour are completely different AC calculations. You use one or the other. So, 13+dex OR 10+dex+con OR 10+dex+wis OR your normal AC calculation (assuming you had all of the above). It doesn't stack with wildshape's natural armour amounts either, but is usually superior anyway. That's why Animonks are a thing, even if the class level in Monk gives your Druid hardly anything else (but you'll probably be pumping Wis at some point, and 14-18AC is WAY better than 11-14AC, depending on which wildshape you take. It just makes your armour a "thing", even if it isn't an amazing thing).

It's also why Shield of Faith is quite a good spell in its own way, even in later level gameplay, and Mage Armour or Barkskin kind of isn't (even with concentration and duration taken into account). Fairly horrible AC for no concentration or reasonable duration, or damn near unhittable if you've got decent AC already, but you have to think about it. It's also why everyone just briefly glanced at the Mystic class and said "Not at my table" (they could run no-concentration +3AC easily). Big AC boosts are rare, and should be, because they skew the system horribly otherwise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 21, 2017, 04:28:47 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 21, 2017, 10:19:38 am

I have realized that the Battle Master's Commander's Strike can allow assassins another critical hitting attack. If that assassin had already hit with his sneak attack his last turn, does he get another one if the Strike hits? And does the supiority dice also double/triple in a crit?

And unrelated, does Mage Armor/Draconic Resilience/Armor of Peace stack with unarmored defense?

Well, the Player's Handbook says that Sneak Attack only procs once per turn, not specifically the turn of the character who made it. So I think if you did Commander's Strike one of two things would happen: the assassin either doesn't get the sneak attack the second time or they get it and don't get the crit because surprise only applies to the first turn of combat. On the bright side crit rules do specify that all of the weapon's damage dice are rolled again, so you'd likely be in the money for the superdice. It's a niche enough use of Commander's Strike that I'd probably allow you to get an extra crit on turn one without sneak attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2017, 04:41:57 pm

That was my reading of it too. You could use SA if you hadn't already, but it wasn't like it gave you an extra use of it that turn, even if it specifically pointed out that it *could* let you proc it.

Honestly, for any rogue other than an assassin, I'd probably allow two sneak attacks with Commanding Strike, just because it encourages teamwork and rogues could use a buff. Except for assassins. Their surprise mechanics probably shouldn't be allowed to be mega-diced twice over (though the superiority dice itself could probably be maxed if it ever came up that they were still in surprise mode, hadn't sneak attacked yet, etc).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on November 21, 2017, 04:52:38 pm

Surprise is for the first round of combat, not just the first turn, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 21, 2017, 05:35:18 pm

Yeah, first round. Even so it's not like you can use Sneak Attack on a reaction, or at least this doesn't seem to be the intended way to use it if you've already snuck attacked that round.

Really I'm only about 50% sure the writers of the PHB are any better at distinguishing turns and rounds than I am.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2017, 06:32:49 pm

It's the very niche case of where the BM goes before the rogue, the rogue is within sneak attack range of an enemy, you have surprise, and the BM superiority die's the rogue into action.

So even rarer than a surprise assassin round is against something "important", but a dexxy BM with Alert could probably do it to an assassin in that particular case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on November 21, 2017, 07:05:20 pm

It's very much intended that rogues can use Sneak Attack with Commander's Strike. This is from the Sage Advice Compedium, under Class Features for Rogue:
"Can a rogue use Sneak Attack more than once per round? The Sneak Attack description specifies that you can use the feature once per turn, but it’s not limited to your turn. The feature also doesn’t limit the number of times you can use it in a round.
You sometimes get a chance to use Sneak Attack on someone else’s turn. The most common way for this to happen is when a foe provokes an opportunity attack from you. If the requirements for Sneak Attack are met, your opportunity attack can benefit from that feature. Similarly, a fighter could use Commander’s Strike to grant you an attack on the fighter’s turn, and if the attack qualifies, it can use Sneak Attack. Both of those options rely on the use of your reaction, so you could do only one of them in a round.
Because you get only one reaction per round, you’re unlikely to use Sneak Attack more than twice in a round: once with your action and once with your reaction."

So, so long as you manage to surprise creatures (which could be ruined by a Battle Master Fighter in heavy armor failing a stealth check) and your Assassin has a target within weapon range (because the Commander's Strike only grants an attack, not movement), it should be possible to get another surprise crit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mini on November 21, 2017, 07:26:55 pm

Commander's strike only requires that the recipient be able to see or hear you, so theoretically the fighter could be a relatively large distance away (such that the target hasn't recognised them as a threat) or around a few corners. Or they could be a rogue/fighter multiclass, and if you have two rogue/fighters then you'd be able to get 4 sneak attacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2017, 07:30:46 pm

Dump Pass without Trace on the lot of them, and let them nearly auto-stealth for that surprise cluster-f*.

(yes, I tend to druid. That's just another reason to do so)



Oh, those rainy days and those elves. Stab you just because, they would.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2017, 08:13:56 pm

Probably a silly question, because I know the RAI answer:

If a Firbolg Druid casts Spike Growth on enemies, that will move that turn, bonus actions Invisible and then wanders off somewhere else, will he be invisible until the start of his next turn? You're not rolling the damage dice, the DM probably should be, because it's his movement causing it.

May have been asked before. May have been FAQ'd or saged. But still....  Firbolgs are way more awesome than the credit given. Invis on short rest always is, aside from all the other WTF(?) they give. 2-3-4e, you can keep it. Little giants o'death rule.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mini on November 21, 2017, 08:32:24 pm

Spike growth uses the same language as fireball does for the damage it deals (i.e., they both use "takes xdx <type> damage"), so there's nothing exceptional there. I don't see any reason why someone other than the person who made an effect would be rolling dice for that effect (other than saving throws). There's nothing in Sage Advice that I could find relating to this, so it comes down to whoever is DMing, but my ruling would be that the invisibility ends when spike growth deals damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: sambojin on November 21, 2017, 08:43:29 pm

So, it's essentially you rolling them (regardless of who actually rolls them, or how many times, or why the enemies triggered damage) because it was you that cast the spell? Sounds fair enough, and RAI. That's what I expected. But possibly rules-lawyerable (the worst form of RAW for such lawyers).


Still one of the best full knowledge character creation pages ever:

http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm

Yes, the greyed-out options work fine. And it even works fine as a saved page (in case you don't have internet access). Can kinda understand why it's not getting updated. It's a bit clunky, but it has an option to check damn near anything :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 22, 2017, 06:31:07 am

Quote from: Mini on November 21, 2017, 07:26:55 pm

Commander's strike only requires that the recipient be able to see or hear you, so theoretically the fighter could be a relatively large distance away (such that the target hasn't recognised them as a threat) or around a few corners. Or they could be a rogue/fighter multiclass, and if you have two rogue/fighters then you'd be able to get 4 sneak attacks.

Suddenly an assassin appears behind you and sinks a dagger into your back in a surprise attack for 2d4 + 6d6 + 4 damage!

An authoritative voice comes from some bushes about forty yards down the road, "YEAH, THAT'S GOOD, THAT'S WHAT'S UP, STAB THE FUCKER"

Encouraged, the assassin stabs you again for 2d4 + 6d6 + 2d8 + 4 more damage!

The two-person battlemaster assassin (or just two assassins with the Martial Adept feat, come to think of it) variant would be even better. Imagine two assassin goons egging each other on as they stab some poor bastard they snuck up on, doing 2d8+6d6+4 twice and then 2d8+6d6+2d6+4 twice more (rapiers, level 5 assassins with Martial Adept, 18 dex, easily accomplished with Variant Humans by that point) in a surprise round.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on November 22, 2017, 01:57:15 pm

My battle master PC is an archer, so he actually might make some stealth checks.
By the way, this probably works even better with a Half-Orc assassin with Dual-wielder.
He gets to to stab for 3d8+6d6+4, then 3d8, then 5d8+6d6+4. Although, you have to remember that Commander's Strike uses up one of the Commander's attacks, so they can't both hit someone at the same time if they are both assassins.

If a PC has natural flying speed, does gaining extra speed from Barbarian/Monk/Mobile allow him to fly farther, or does he have to walk part of it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 22, 2017, 02:41:42 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 22, 2017, 01:57:15 pm

My battle master PC is an archer, so he actually might make some stealth checks.
By the way, this probably works even better with a Half-Orc assassin with Dual-wielder.
He gets to to stab for 3d8+6d6+4, then 3d8, then 5d8+6d6+4. Although, you have to remember that Commander's Strike uses up one of the Commander's attacks, so they can't both hit someone at the same time if they are both assassins.

Yeah, sadly for the cause of exploitation two assassins shouting at each other for large amounts of damage to the poor bastard caught in between is not rules legal (sadly dual wielding takes a bonus action to do, otherwise you could drop the second attack for the Commander's Strike). An archer deciding not to shoot but instead telling the assassin to stab harder, however, looks to be perfectly in keeping with the rules, so that's pretty good.

And yeah, suppose dual wielding does give half-orcs a bit of an edge, though it won't be a 3d8 because rapiers aren't light weapons. At best it'd be a scimitar or shortsword for 3d6, I think.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on November 22, 2017, 02:56:27 pm

I was talking about the feat, Dual-wielder which always you to dual-wield non-light one handed weapons. If you are mounted, you can dual-wield lances.
A 5th level Battle Master can attack once, and expend his second attack for Commander's Strike.
Since he can attack only once, he might as well wield a heavy crossbow. So total damage from these two fifth level creatures, assuming a dexterity of 16, sneak attack for 5th level being 3d6, the assassin is a Half-Orc wielding two rappers, and all attacks hitting, would be 3d8+6d6+3+3d8+5d8+6d6+3+1d10+3, for a minimum of 36 damage.
With two 5th level assassins with Martial Adept, drop the 1d10+3.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Hanslanda on November 22, 2017, 03:03:13 pm

Half Orc Assassin: I swing Eminem first then Ice Cube...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 22, 2017, 03:11:33 pm

Yeah, you could do that, but then if you're a half-orc with a feat your maximum Dex is actually only 15 at that point, which isn't very good at 5th level for a rogue of any kind, I shouldn't think, whereas the variant human gets the feat and a +1 to Dex and one other attribute (followed by dialing the Dex up to 18 at 4th) which puts it slightly ahead of the curve for general purposes as opposed to purely during ambushes unless you think it terribly wise to max your strength as well as your dexterity specifically for weapons stuff.

Although if you do play in a game that allows for a lot of creativity in approaching combat encounters you could theoretically pull off a lot of ambushes, so playing a dual-wielding half orc assassin might pay off in that case. Still seems like a fairly suboptimal path to go for what is in effect 2d8 extra damage about once a session under ideal circumstances.

Quote from: Hanslanda on November 22, 2017, 03:03:13 pm

Half Orc Assassin: I swing Eminem first then Ice Cube...

But you only get two shots, so do not miss your chance to blow

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on November 22, 2017, 03:31:30 pm

I suppose that makes sense, but why did you say the max is 15 at that point? The max at that point is 18. And it would deal 3d8 extra damage for being a half-Orc, as he attacks thrice. And that extra 1d8 damage is every time he crits, which with two attacks is about 1/10th of the time. Admittedly, it is only worth it if you get a lot of opportunity to surprise people.

Again does a PC with racial flight get extra flight speed from being a monk/barbarian?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on November 22, 2017, 04:14:37 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on November 22, 2017, 02:41:42 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 22, 2017, 01:57:15 pm

My battle master PC is an archer, so he actually might make some stealth checks.
By the way, this probably works even better with a Half-Orc assassin with Dual-wielder.
He gets to to stab for 3d8+6d6+4, then 3d8, then 5d8+6d6+4. Although, you have to remember that Commander's Strike uses up one of the Commander's attacks, so they can't both hit someone at the same time if they are both assassins.

Yeah, sadly for the cause of exploitation two assassins shouting at each other for large amounts of damage to the poor bastard caught in between is not rules legal (sadly dual wielding takes a bonus action to do, otherwise you could drop the second attack for the Commander's Strike). An archer deciding not to shoot but instead telling the assassin to stab harder, however, looks to be perfectly in keeping with the rules, so that's pretty good.

And yeah, suppose dual wielding does give half-orcs a bit of an edge, though it won't be a 3d8 because rapiers aren't light weapons. At best it'd be a scimitar or shortsword for 3d6, I think.

Don't rapiers count as light weapons for the purpose of feats, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 22, 2017, 04:16:57 pm

I think only for weapon finesse

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on November 22, 2017, 04:42:17 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 22, 2017, 03:31:30 pm

I suppose that makes sense, but why did you say the max is 15 at that point? The max at that point is 18. And it would deal 3d8 extra damage for being a half-Orc, as he attacks thrice. And that extra 1d8 damage is every time he crits, which with two attacks is about 1/10th of the time. Admittedly, it is only worth it if you get a lot of opportunity to surprise people.

I'm assuming point buy as the default character system of choice (mostly because it's a standardized point to start from) which has an outright maximum starting stat of 15 before racial modifiers. It also somewhat coincides with the usual maximum value you can expect to roll if you prefer to do stats that way*. So for a half-orc built with point buy, their racial bonuses not allowing for that all-important Dex increase, the maximum Dex value by level 4 (assuming the single ability score improvement is spent on Dual Wielder, itself a questionable choice when the difference between a 1d6 and 1d8 is something like a +1, or a +3 on a hypothetical half-orc crit) would normally be 15 unless you're houseruling something in character creation, compared to the 18 Dex a variant human could have or the 19 an elf might have.

Of course, not being able to build a character with an 18 in a stat is probably my least favorite part of 5E's point buy, considering how it tends to pigeonhole folks into playing a particular race to get their stat bonuses to line up just right.

* - checking now and it turns out the average roll on 4d6 drop lowest for six abilities is roughly 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 (http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/), which is disappointingly one better where it counts.

Quote from: Sirus on November 22, 2017, 04:14:37 pm

Don't rapiers count as light weapons for the purpose of feats, though?

They're considered light weapons in 3.5 to specifically give them an in for Weapon Finesse, but in 5E finesse is an inherent property of a weapon type that works like a combination of agile (Dex to damage) and light + Weapon Finesse (Dex to attack rolls, no feat required), to clear up any confusion. One of the nice touches of 5E to counterbalance my gripes about the point buy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on November 22, 2017, 04:57:16 pm

Ah, it's different in 5E. Gotcha.

I still have no idea what's different about 5E, other than that some people seem to like it (as opposed to 4E, which I seem to be the only fan of :P ).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 22, 2017, 05:54:28 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 22, 2017, 03:31:30 pm

Again does a PC with racial flight get extra flight speed from being a monk/barbarian?

Yes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: sambojin on November 23, 2017, 03:21:59 pm

Which can make for some funny situations, especially where multiclassed druids are concerned. Throw in some longstrider and you can end up with land whales, turbo digger giant badgers and giant octopi running around as fast as normal PCs. To put the real stupidity factor up a notch, get the Mariner fighting style in there somehow and everything that could conceivably climb or swim, now can.

I'm seriously eyeing off a Tabaxi druid for my next character just for such shenanigans. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on November 23, 2017, 06:46:18 pm

Druid shape is limited in that you can only use features if your new shape would be physically capable of doing so. So you can't make a land whale (since a whale doesn't have a walking speed. Actually, I'm not sure that there is a whale entry in 5e yet, but the dolphin entry in Volo's Guide is a good enough indicator of what a whale's walking speed would be), but the increase to speed could allow it to swim very fast, or a giant badger to dig very fast, or a giant octopus to run fast (since octopi have a walking speed).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrWiggles on November 29, 2017, 06:32:50 am

And we all died.

We're playing Savage World Ripper. We're in the middle of a desert, 2 weeks out from civilation. Well not real Civilation, Cario doesn't count, but you know as a Brit, about the world you do with what you have.

So were we left off we were fighting this Mummy, which we stuck a stick of dynamite to its head, and one of the PC kill themselves to try and let us escape. And we couldnt escape. We had to climb a rope, and we couldnt climb a rope. Rope climbing is the most damable thing in RPG games.  So yea. So the Mummy caught up with us, and manage to shop us from climbing up.
And one of the NPCs died. And through sheer attrition and bad GM rolls we manage to overcome this mummy. So we climb up the rope, we manage to overcome the rock door, and then another fucking fucking mummy. But we manage to recover this ring from the previous mummy.

Anyway, so we walk in the opening chamber and the mummy is talking to us, and I go, "What do you fucking want?" And it says, "You killed my wife" As the last mummy we killed was a lady mummy. My response was, "I've killed lots of wives. Can you be particular?" And then I was incapicated again. And we manage to barely defeat this mummy, because the special ring one off the mummy.

So we try to travel back to town through the desert without enoug food. None of us tracking, so we cant navigate at all. So we try to do it. We cant. We all starve to death in the desert, 3 days from town. We all died. New characters for next week game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on November 29, 2017, 02:19:06 pm

lol

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MidnightJaguar on November 29, 2017, 02:35:38 pm

So any suggestions for an eldertich knight fighter in 5E? Like spell or strategy wise?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on November 29, 2017, 03:05:24 pm

If Eldritch Knights can cast Magic Missile, definitely do that, as it is an automatic hit.
Shield is a decent defensive spell.
Maybe take the War Caster feat. If you do that, maybe take the Polearm Expert feat.
Hmm... Sorry, I don't know enough about Eldritch Knights to help any further.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 29, 2017, 04:03:24 pm

Quote from: MidnightJaguar on November 29, 2017, 02:35:38 pm

So any suggestions for an eldertich knight fighter in 5E? Like spell or strategy wise?

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479532-Bellator-Arcana-The-Eldritch-Knight-s-guide)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on November 29, 2017, 05:35:51 pm

I will say that I have almost no play experience with me or anyone in my group playing an Eldritch Knight, but from seeing Arcane Tricksters (which have the same spell progression) played, I'll say: don't think of yourself as a magic-user who can fight so much as a fighter with some magic tricks up your sleeve.

Depending on whether you want to go for a melee build or a ranged and/or finesse build, you'll want to focus on either Strength or Dexterity. You probably don't want to focus on Intelligence too much (I've even heard of some builds that don't boost Intelligence at all, preferring to use spells that don't have saves or attack rolls, but that may not be the best), since spells probably won't be your main mode of attack, since you don't have spell slots to spam damage like a full spellcaster, and cantrip damage pales in comparison to weapon attacks, especially from a fighter, who gets the most weapon attacks of any class. And, even though you generally shouldn't spam spells as an Eldritch Knight, I will point out that Action Surge puts and Eldritch Knight in the unique position of being able to cast the same spell twice on the same target(s) in a single turn, so, once you can cast Fireball, and you really need to make a lot of things dead for sure, you can.

As for spells, you have to pick from abjuration or evocation for the most part, with the occasion few picks from other schools. The way I like to sort out which ones can be taken is this site (https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/spells/), though you can also use the official WotC app site (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells), which will give you a bit more information about the different spells and includes spells from sourcebooks like Xanathar's Guide, though you'll need to use advanced filters to be able to filter by spell school.

Shield is definitely a good spell to take, since, though you have very limited spell slots, being able to take any attack that would have been a hit and turn it into a miss is invaluable, and getting a significant bonus to your AC until the start of your next turn makes it even better. Being able to stop magic missiles is going to be pretty situational, but very nice when it happens.

Eldritch Knights can cast Magic Missile, but I'm not sure if it's the best spell to take, since it does so little damage by spell level, and is only really good against things that have a lot of armor but not a lot of hit points, or in the case that you just really need to make sure you hit your target.

Fireball, as mentioned above, is really nice, or really anything that can hit a lot of targets and do some damage even if they save (though Fireball is probably the best at this).

A thing to definitely keep in mind is cantrips. Don't go for the most damaging cantrips, as cantrip progression for the most part follows Fighter Extra Attack progression, and your weapon attacks should do more damage than even the most damaging cantrips. Instead, it's better to go for spells with utility, especially since, from 7th level on, you still get to make an attack as a bonus action when you cast a cantrip. So you can use things like Shocking Grasp to take away your enemy's reaction, Ray of Frost to slow someone down, or Blade Barrier to halve weapon attacks. Plus, since the cantrips aren't limited by school, you could take Minor Illusion and create illusions while you fight, or Chill Touch to stop someone from healing or make it harder for undead to hit you, or Prestidigitation to clean your pants after you soil yourself in battle. If you have access to spells outside of the Players Handbook, you can use Create Bonfire to light a fire under you enemy's ass; or Green-Flame Blade to do a melee weapon attack, and, if it hits, do damage not only to your opponent, but to another enemy next to them. Or Booming Blade, which can also be used with melee weapon attacks, and can either be used to keep enemies close to you under the threat of taking lots of damage, or you can use something like the Mobile Feat to avoid taking opportunity attacks (or take them, if you're brave enough), move out of the enemy's melee weapon range, and they either have to stay in place or risk taking damage (doesn't work so great against people with ranged attacks).

I suppose that's a decent enough start. If you want a more in-depth look, you can probably Google something like "Eldritch Knight 5e Build Guide" for more of a breakdown of various spells and such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MidnightJaguar on November 29, 2017, 05:54:54 pm

Intresting, thanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on November 30, 2017, 06:21:24 pm

Be careful with spells like Fireball, in case your DM is the kind to make fireballs destroy treasure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 05, 2017, 10:56:08 am

I've been looking through Unearthed Arcana and optimizing.

If you are a 11 level mystic/3rd level Battle Master, you can have a reach with a halberd of 35[5+Halberd's Reach(+5)+Lunging Attack(+5)+Focus on Giant Growth(+5)+Ogre Form(+5)+Giant Form(+10).

And I have so far found a maximum Persuasion check of 70, without use of magic items.
With a die roll of 1 on all rolls, this method would still give you a 28.
To get 70, you would need a half-elf 3rd level Redeemer/1st level Mystic/8th level fighter+5 other levels.
You would start with a 14 in Cha, and 15 in Int. Thanks to being a half-elf, that goes up to 16 Cha, 16 Int. Use your three ASI from fighter levels to raise that to 20 Cha, 18 INt.
As a Mystic, focus on Mantle of Awe, and use Precognitive Hunch to give 2+1d4 to Persuasion checks.
Use Emissary of Peace to get +5 to Persuasion checks.
Get double profiency with Persuasion, somehow.
Have a 17th level person succesfully use the Historian feat on you.
Have Guidance, a cantrip, cast on you.
Have a high level bard use Bardic Inspiration on you.
After all that, you will have a Persuasion check of 1d20+6+6+6+5+5+1d4+1d4+1d12+2.
Not that I'm sure that is actually worth the effort.

You can also at 17th level get a passive perception of 37.
Have 20 Int, 20 Cha, 1 level of Warlock(Raven Queen), the Observant feat, and Expertise in Perception, if Expertise can double passive Perception, anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Biowraith on December 05, 2017, 12:56:07 pm

I'm not at all familiar with the Mystic UA, but skimming it I think you'd "only" get 30ft reach max, as Ogre Form and Giant Form both appear to be concentration.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 05, 2017, 06:18:22 pm

And thats why multiclassing is explicitly suggested as shouldn't be allowed with UA stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 05, 2017, 06:27:20 pm

the gm can always say “you aren’t allowed to do that”

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 06, 2017, 02:38:17 pm

Quote from: Biowraith on December 05, 2017, 12:56:07 pm

I'm not at all familiar with the Mystic UA, but skimming it I think you'd "only" get 30ft reach max, as Ogre Form and Giant Form both appear to be concentration.

An 11th level mystic can use the special psi points to concentrate on multiple stuff at a time, as long at it comes to only 9 psi points total, and Ogre Form and Giant Form come to 9 psi total.

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on December 05, 2017, 06:18:22 pm

And thats why multiclassing is explicitly suggested as shouldn't be allowed with UA stuff.

I suppose, but the munchkin in me refuses to care that most DMs wouldn't allow it.

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on December 05, 2017, 06:27:20 pm

the gm can always say “you aren’t allowed to do that”

why is this crossed out?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 06, 2017, 05:22:20 pm

it was mostly a joke

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 06, 2017, 05:35:20 pm

It is correct however, Rule 0 is an absolute necessity if you really want to keep the game rolling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 06, 2017, 05:39:03 pm

Yeah, it's always weird when people talk about how specific items/weapons/spells/class abilities (iron fucking heart surge) are """overpowered""" when literally all the GM has to say is "No, you can't stack seven +5 bonuses to the same skill." and you're done.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mini on December 07, 2017, 06:51:28 am

Relying on a GM to balance the game is just as likely to make a game even more unbalanced as to fix problems with it. Additionally, internet discussions can't have someone arbitrate everything, so discussions have to be performed with what is written in the books (or what was intended to be written in the books, but whatever that was is frequently not obvious).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 07, 2017, 07:48:23 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on December 06, 2017, 05:39:03 pm

Yeah, it's always weird when people talk about how specific items/weapons/spells/class abilities (iron fucking heart surge) are """overpowered""" when literally all the GM has to say is "No, you can't stack seven +5 bonuses to the same skill." and you're done.

Yes, the GM has final say - but the rules themselves should already prevent excessively powerful combinations.

Unless the GM is intimiately familiar with every class, weapon, item and skill, it might be realised until it's already being used, and it's sure as hell not fun for the player when their shiny toy is taken away - especially if they've already gotten used to it.

There also comes to mind things that look very powerful at first glance - like the 3.5e Favoured Soul - which actually turn out to be balanced quite alright.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 07, 2017, 01:57:42 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on December 05, 2017, 06:18:22 pm

And thats why multiclassing is explicitly suggested as shouldn't be allowed with UA stuff.

I've thought about this some more, and no multi-classing UA stuff is required.
The mystic can still get a reach of 35 without levels of Battle Master, through the Martial Adept feat.
The warlock didn't need to multiclass in the first place to get passive perception 37.
Without the mystic, the redeemer's max Persuasion check is still 64. With some preparation, but all natural ones, it is 25. All natural ones, no preparation, it is still 18. If he multi classes into having 10th level Rogue, the absolute minimum is 27. If he instead takes enough Bard levels to use Glibness, and uses it, but otherwise has no preparation, and all natural ones, assuming I remember what Glibness does correctly, his check is 32. Please note, the redeemer is no longer UA, so I can multiclass with him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2017, 06:56:28 pm

And that's why no dm should ever allow psionics in their game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 07, 2017, 07:11:50 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 07, 2017, 06:56:28 pm

And that's why no dm should ever allow psionics in their game.

Uh, the only thing the Mystics were doing in my last post is the 35 reach. The passive perception of 37, and the Persausion check of 64 have nothing to do with psionics.

Though I agree the Mystics seem to be very good for min-maxing. Perhaps too good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 07, 2017, 08:18:48 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 07, 2017, 06:56:28 pm

And that's why no dm should ever allow psionics in their game.

I've been fascinated by the UA Mystic in 5E but apparently it's super broken (and somewhat unlikely to show up in official materials any time soon). Terrible shame, I feel like it could be a worthy successor to what the Warlock was in 3.5 on account of the "person with narrowly-defined superpowers" general concept, and I've always had a soft spot for the 3.5 warlock.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 08, 2017, 01:48:32 pm

Harry, I think I finally know what your avatar is. It is the most horrible of beasts, the Thought Eater, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 08, 2017, 02:19:53 pm

Yah, that's definitely the thought eater from AD&D Monster Manual.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 08, 2017, 03:10:45 pm

Sometimes I just think "Psionics is OP" is mostly just perpetuated from days of 1st and 2nd edition.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on December 08, 2017, 04:45:53 pm

It might also be because it's often its own extensive subsystem that most DMs and players don't look into unless someone is playing a psionic. From what I hear, the same sort of thing tends to happen with the Tome of Battle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on December 08, 2017, 05:07:37 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 08, 2017, 01:48:32 pm

Harry, I think I finally know what your avatar is. It is the most horrible of beasts, the Thought Eater, right?

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 08, 2017, 02:19:53 pm

Yah, that's definitely the thought eater from AD&D Monster Manual.

I think it's a Duck from Dragons and Demons:
(http://www.piruett.se/blogg/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/egerkransanka_xc12oi.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on December 08, 2017, 05:34:27 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 08, 2017, 05:07:37 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 08, 2017, 01:48:32 pm

Harry, I think I finally know what your avatar is. It is the most horrible of beasts, the Thought Eater, right?

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 08, 2017, 02:19:53 pm

Yah, that's definitely the thought eater from AD&D Monster Manual.

I think it's a Duck from Dragons and Demons:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://www.piruett.se/blogg/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/egerkransanka_xc12oi.jpg)

No, it's explicitly a Thought Eater. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_eater)

And when I saw the image you posted, I assumed it was from Runequest (the only RPG I know of with anthropomorphic ducks (besides furry ones, of course), but it turns out that Drakar och Demoner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakar_och_Demoner) is it's own thing, though it was originally based on Runequest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on December 08, 2017, 08:05:27 pm

And here I thought the ducks was a thing Drakar och Demoner had brewed up themselves. I am disappoint. I figured it was an expression of the Swedish appreciation of Donald Duck or something, given how often they were depicted in an unambiguously Disneyian fashion:

(http://www.piruett.se/blogg/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ankor_tycum1.jpg)

I didn't even know RuneQuest was anything else than the mmo actually.

Also, bonus trivia: The company that made Dragons and Demons is the predecessor of what is Paradox Interactive today.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on December 08, 2017, 11:21:02 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 08, 2017, 08:05:27 pm

I didn't even know RuneQuest was anything else than the mmo actually.

You're mixing it up with RuneScape (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape). The two are unaffiliated, though it is slightly suspicious that both have character advancement that involved leveling-up individual skills by using them, rune magic that anyone can use, and similar names. But surely that's just coincidence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on December 09, 2017, 01:23:52 am

I had a lot of fun last session. The group found a magical McGuffin artifact that was in the shape of a twisted metal key made of iron and gold, DC 25 Use Magic Device check to activate, which opened a magic door. The door led to a nexus of infinite portals to any and every place on any dimension, but they had no way of knowing which door led where. They also had a book that gave them eleven locations they could know in advance.

The catch of course was that the method of identifying the door was hidden in the third page of the book, which I'd written, printed and gave them as a handout. I had a great time laughing with evil glee as they glossed over the handout and started arguing about just trying doors randomly.

Spoilered text of book for those interested. I think I did a great job of making it both completely accurate yet entirely mind-numbingly boring.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

THEORIA PHILOSOPHIC PLANUM PORTALIS
TYPOGRAPHUS: DAE’SHAR QUI MAGI


Table of Contents
 
Preface: To the Reader
Chapter 1: +1 (Mundus Planum Caelum Summis Mons Primis)
Chapter 2: +11 (Planum Astral Proxima Mundus)
Chapter 3: -11 (Relinquit Aetherium Non-Periculum Proxima Mundus)
Chapter 4: -75 (Proxima Umbra Privatus Domum)
Chapter 5: +18 (Umbra Planum Elementa Forum Maximus)
Chapter 6: +53 (Ignis Planum Elementa Ærea Civitatem)
Chapter 7: -48 (Aer Planum Elementa Periculum Procidens)
Chapter 8: -50 (Aqua Planum Elementa Proxima Aer)
Chapter 9: +33 (Terra Planum Elementa Magna Antrum)
Chapter 10: 100 (Medica Vis Planum Proxima Mundus Periculum Minima)
Chapter 11: -100 (Malum Vis Planum Proxima Mundus Periculum Minima)
 
PREFACE: TO THE READER
 
You will be well aware, if you are well read, with what applause my works which I now offer to you have been received throughout the material plane since their publication. Not to mention other planes of existence as well, for if you refer to the number of my journals held within the libraries and private collections of those outer beings most given to the accumulation of entirely accurate and factually researched material, you will not fail to see how highly it has been esteemed. My journal herein contains an entirely new system of philosophy based upon the translocation of matter between states of differing planar energies, which is already commonly known as plane shifting, from the crude colloquial name of its overall effect. As a matter of fact, it is even now a subject of public instruction in several Universities in different parts of this world and others; it is expounded not only in yearly theses or dissertations, both printed and debated; but also in several elementary books issued for the instruction of the young it is introduced, explained, and by many considered as their original discoveries. Anyone, however, who wishes to obtain more detailed insight into the whole structure of the theory, the close relation that its several parts bear to one another, or its great fertility and wide scope for the purpose of discovering the whole of the myriad planes of existence, in their widest ranges, from a single simple locus; anyone who wishes to make a deeper study of it must perforce study the work here offered.
All these considerations had from the first moved me to undertake this wholly original work; in addition, there was the fact that I perceived that it would be a matter of some difficulty for others lacking my precognizant powers of analytical perspicacity to pass beyond the confines of their own minds and accept the myriad fundamental realities which this work summarizes, for at the present time, no matter how diligently the locations I describe are inquired for, knowledge of their existence is to be found nowhere, or scarcely anywhere, in the rest of the material plane. The system I describe herein relating to the planar hub of infinite possibilities, and its dangers and wealth both material and intellectual, form the core of this volume; though, as fate would have it, the system itself of accessing such core possibilities lies only within the reach of the possessor of a singular artefact of power, whither I have performed my travels in compilation of this volume. I therefore thought it right that the knowledge I obtained through its use should be disseminated throughout the whole of the planes respective of higher learning, and that perforce it be recognized as the product of a mortal master of the arcane to whom the worlds owe their gratitude for his efforts and attentions to the original research contained herein. I had in fact already commenced an edition founded on a similar avenue of research, when the artefact came to my possession and I found myself greatly dissatisfied with my previous edition, for in my hand I found significant other prospects of new discoveries; that such innumerable wonders of possibility had been opened; that many passages, especially those that contain profound risk to one’s life and sanity, were available for investigation; lastly, that I myself found I had been presented with a necessity for a complete revision, including certain alterations to fundamental assumptions of the nature of several extra-dimensional planes, to give a better finish and factual credence to my work, together with certain additional matters not relevant to the primary research.
That being the case, I was greatly desirous of creating this volume, revised and enlarged by myself with addendum; I also wanted to have at hand a reference for future research whilst a second edition was in progress, and that I should superintend the whole thing for creation of duplicate copies of the artefact which precipitated this research. This, however, I was unable to procure during the last few years, in every attempt meeting with failure to attune my own devices to the proper sympathy; until at last, as I returned home from my lengthy wanderings, and stayed here to compile the edition you hold in hand, I came to accept that none save the greatest of powers divine might recreate the circumstances surrounding the proper construction of this artefact. I, in my various attempts, used every care in attempting the duplication, wielding such magics as can shape the very realities of creation; even then, however, replication remains outside of the realms of the possible, and I have sufficient confidence in myself as to imagine that not the slightest thing has escaped my consideration. For it is a characteristic of my mind that it cannot concentrate long on the same subject without failing to solve any enigma for which there exists a possible solution.
It follows that this ought to be considered in some measure as a first and original edition; anyone who compares it with that issued by others will soon see the difference between them. Many of the diagrams contained herein are made for the purpose of rendering certain passages more elegant and clear; there are, however, especially at the foot of a page, slight additions also, or slight changes made after the script was inked, merely for the purpose of filling up gaps that were left here and there, these gaps being due to the fact that several sheets were being set at the same time by my conjured assistants, and four were kept hard at work bringing this volume together. As the opportunity was at hand, these gaps could easily be filled without causing any disturbance of the sentences or the pagination, to better offer you, my reader and seeker of knowledge, additional avenues of devotion to my work.
Among the more important exegeses will be found a rubric for the order of numbering the infinite exits from the passage to which one is translocated when using the artefact. Thus, having given thought to the matter, I have logically designed a system founded upon the principles of order of function from the null centered upon the point of arrival; that which was dextral upon translocation is now broken up into positive integers with the odd values respecting sinestral portals and even respecting dextral when performing distal motions from the null; and, in the reverse, following negative integers from null, both the odd and even possessing respective relations in their aspect to the passages relative to the observer.
The order of the chapters has been devised so that those immediately following this preface illuminate the more thoroughly explored terminus points, assisting travel from the portal nexus. This was done because understanding of these points of commonality are required for use in this work before the others of lesser utility. To that end, there has been added scholium, consisting of several articles that between them give a short but complete dissertation on the points which, should the reader neglect to attend, will likely result in profound injury or fatality upon arrival at their destination. In this dissertation the author assumes that there is no reason why any one of power sufficient to negotiate the distances between planes should lack the ability to express their force of will upon the environment they traverse, in most cases under the auspice of sufficiently common magical protections.
Short marginal summaries have been inserted throughout the work, in which the arguments dealt with under each chapter are given in brief; by the help of these, the whole matter may be taken in at a glance and recalled to mind with ease.
Lastly, at the end of the work, a somewhat full catalogue of the whole of the author's publications up to the present time has been added. Of these publications the author intends the reader to make a full collection, revised and thoroughly comprehended, together with a continuation of acquisition of those that are not yet finished; this vital task he proposes the reader attend immediately and with all diligence, through which the reader will no doubt find a wealth of wisdom and enlightenment upon a plethora of subjects. This catalogue is compiled in chronological order in connection with the subjects the author believes most vital to the proper education of the learned scholar, to wit, all works under the author’s pen.
Later, when this revision of the author’s other works is complete, I propose to the reader to undertake their own duplication of this complete collection of the author’s works, with all the resources at their command, in order to continue the dissemination of proper and correct enlightenment of those with wit enough to seek the author’s words.
Such are the matters that I thought ought to be brought to your notice. May you enjoy the fruit of my labours, and live in happiness because of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on December 09, 2017, 10:40:51 am

Quote from: Kadzar on December 08, 2017, 11:21:02 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 08, 2017, 08:05:27 pm

I didn't even know RuneQuest was anything else than the mmo actually.

You're mixing it up with RuneScape (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape). The two are unaffiliated, though it is slightly suspicious that both have character advancement that involved leveling-up individual skills by using them, rune magic that anyone can use, and similar names. But surely that's just coincidence.

Oh right. I see. But yeah that's definitely just coincidence. Just like the first Swedish rpg being named Dragons and Demons is a total coincidence too. No relation there.

Quote from: Jimmy on December 09, 2017, 01:23:52 am

I had a lot of fun last session. The group found a magical McGuffin artifact that was in the shape of a twisted metal key made of iron and gold, DC 25 Use Magic Device check to activate, which opened a magic door. The door led to a nexus of infinite portals to any and every place on any dimension, but they had no way of knowing which door led where. They also had a book that gave them eleven locations they could know in advance.

The catch of course was that the method of identifying the door was hidden in the third page of the book, which I'd written, printed and gave them as a handout. I had a great time laughing with evil glee as they glossed over the handout and started arguing about just trying doors randomly.

Spoilered text of book for those interested. I think I did a great job of making it both completely accurate yet entirely mind-numbingly boring.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

THEORIA PHILOSOPHIC PLANUM PORTALIS
TYPOGRAPHUS: DAE’SHAR QUI MAGI


Table of Contents
 
Preface: To the Reader
Chapter 1: +1 (Mundus Planum Caelum Summis Mons Primis)
Chapter 2: +11 (Planum Astral Proxima Mundus)
Chapter 3: -11 (Relinquit Aetherium Non-Periculum Proxima Mundus)
Chapter 4: -75 (Proxima Umbra Privatus Domum)
Chapter 5: +18 (Umbra Planum Elementa Forum Maximus)
Chapter 6: +53 (Ignis Planum Elementa Ærea Civitatem)
Chapter 7: -48 (Aer Planum Elementa Periculum Procidens)
Chapter 8: -50 (Aqua Planum Elementa Proxima Aer)
Chapter 9: +33 (Terra Planum Elementa Magna Antrum)
Chapter 10: 100 (Medica Vis Planum Proxima Mundus Periculum Minima)
Chapter 11: -100 (Malum Vis Planum Proxima Mundus Periculum Minima)
 
PREFACE: TO THE READER
 
You will be well aware, if you are well read, with what applause my works which I now offer to you have been received throughout the material plane since their publication. Not to mention other planes of existence as well, for if you refer to the number of my journals held within the libraries and private collections of those outer beings most given to the accumulation of entirely accurate and factually researched material, you will not fail to see how highly it has been esteemed. My journal herein contains an entirely new system of philosophy based upon the translocation of matter between states of differing planar energies, which is already commonly known as plane shifting, from the crude colloquial name of its overall effect. As a matter of fact, it is even now a subject of public instruction in several Universities in different parts of this world and others; it is expounded not only in yearly theses or dissertations, both printed and debated; but also in several elementary books issued for the instruction of the young it is introduced, explained, and by many considered as their original discoveries. Anyone, however, who wishes to obtain more detailed insight into the whole structure of the theory, the close relation that its several parts bear to one another, or its great fertility and wide scope for the purpose of discovering the whole of the myriad planes of existence, in their widest ranges, from a single simple locus; anyone who wishes to make a deeper study of it must perforce study the work here offered.
All these considerations had from the first moved me to undertake this wholly original work; in addition, there was the fact that I perceived that it would be a matter of some difficulty for others lacking my precognizant powers of analytical perspicacity to pass beyond the confines of their own minds and accept the myriad fundamental realities which this work summarizes, for at the present time, no matter how diligently the locations I describe are inquired for, knowledge of their existence is to be found nowhere, or scarcely anywhere, in the rest of the material plane. The system I describe herein relating to the planar hub of infinite possibilities, and its dangers and wealth both material and intellectual, form the core of this volume; though, as fate would have it, the system itself of accessing such core possibilities lies only within the reach of the possessor of a singular artefact of power, whither I have performed my travels in compilation of this volume. I therefore thought it right that the knowledge I obtained through its use should be disseminated throughout the whole of the planes respective of higher learning, and that perforce it be recognized as the product of a mortal master of the arcane to whom the worlds owe their gratitude for his efforts and attentions to the original research contained herein. I had in fact already commenced an edition founded on a similar avenue of research, when the artefact came to my possession and I found myself greatly dissatisfied with my previous edition, for in my hand I found significant other prospects of new discoveries; that such innumerable wonders of possibility had been opened; that many passages, especially those that contain profound risk to one’s life and sanity, were available for investigation; lastly, that I myself found I had been presented with a necessity for a complete revision, including certain alterations to fundamental assumptions of the nature of several extra-dimensional planes, to give a better finish and factual credence to my work, together with certain additional matters not relevant to the primary research.
That being the case, I was greatly desirous of creating this volume, revised and enlarged by myself with addendum; I also wanted to have at hand a reference for future research whilst a second edition was in progress, and that I should superintend the whole thing for creation of duplicate copies of the artefact which precipitated this research. This, however, I was unable to procure during the last few years, in every attempt meeting with failure to attune my own devices to the proper sympathy; until at last, as I returned home from my lengthy wanderings, and stayed here to compile the edition you hold in hand, I came to accept that none save the greatest of powers divine might recreate the circumstances surrounding the proper construction of this artefact. I, in my various attempts, used every care in attempting the duplication, wielding such magics as can shape the very realities of creation; even then, however, replication remains outside of the realms of the possible, and I have sufficient confidence in myself as to imagine that not the slightest thing has escaped my consideration. For it is a characteristic of my mind that it cannot concentrate long on the same subject without failing to solve any enigma for which there exists a possible solution.
It follows that this ought to be considered in some measure as a first and original edition; anyone who compares it with that issued by others will soon see the difference between them. Many of the diagrams contained herein are made for the purpose of rendering certain passages more elegant and clear; there are, however, especially at the foot of a page, slight additions also, or slight changes made after the script was inked, merely for the purpose of filling up gaps that were left here and there, these gaps being due to the fact that several sheets were being set at the same time by my conjured assistants, and four were kept hard at work bringing this volume together. As the opportunity was at hand, these gaps could easily be filled without causing any disturbance of the sentences or the pagination, to better offer you, my reader and seeker of knowledge, additional avenues of devotion to my work.
Among the more important exegeses will be found a rubric for the order of numbering the infinite exits from the passage to which one is translocated when using the artefact. Thus, having given thought to the matter, I have logically designed a system founded upon the principles of order of function from the null centered upon the point of arrival; that which was dextral upon translocation is now broken up into positive integers with the odd values respecting sinestral portals and even respecting dextral when performing distal motions from the null; and, in the reverse, following negative integers from null, both the odd and even possessing respective relations in their aspect to the passages relative to the observer.
The order of the chapters has been devised so that those immediately following this preface illuminate the more thoroughly explored terminus points, assisting travel from the portal nexus. This was done because understanding of these points of commonality are required for use in this work before the others of lesser utility. To that end, there has been added scholium, consisting of several articles that between them give a short but complete dissertation on the points which, should the reader neglect to attend, will likely result in profound injury or fatality upon arrival at their destination. In this dissertation the author assumes that there is no reason why any one of power sufficient to negotiate the distances between planes should lack the ability to express their force of will upon the environment they traverse, in most cases under the auspice of sufficiently common magical protections.
Short marginal summaries have been inserted throughout the work, in which the arguments dealt with under each chapter are given in brief; by the help of these, the whole matter may be taken in at a glance and recalled to mind with ease.
Lastly, at the end of the work, a somewhat full catalogue of the whole of the author's publications up to the present time has been added. Of these publications the author intends the reader to make a full collection, revised and thoroughly comprehended, together with a continuation of acquisition of those that are not yet finished; this vital task he proposes the reader attend immediately and with all diligence, through which the reader will no doubt find a wealth of wisdom and enlightenment upon a plethora of subjects. This catalogue is compiled in chronological order in connection with the subjects the author believes most vital to the proper education of the learned scholar, to wit, all works under the author’s pen.
Later, when this revision of the author’s other works is complete, I propose to the reader to undertake their own duplication of this complete collection of the author’s works, with all the resources at their command, in order to continue the dissemination of proper and correct enlightenment of those with wit enough to seek the author’s words.
Such are the matters that I thought ought to be brought to your notice. May you enjoy the fruit of my labours, and live in happiness because of them.

That is evil.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: milo christiansen on December 10, 2017, 01:56:01 pm

Just be glad I'm not in your party. I read everything, and when it comes to documentation I read it carefully.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: LordPorkins on December 11, 2017, 10:19:12 am

Does anyone else here know of the magical plot device known as the "Peasant Railgun?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on December 11, 2017, 10:43:33 am

AKA “physics works because we can launch an object at incredibly high speeds within 6 seconds, but physics doesn’t work because we can somehow pass an object between thousands of people within those six seconds”?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on December 11, 2017, 10:51:05 am

If we're treating "free actions take up no time" as some sort of law of physics, rather than merely a helpful abstraction, we should probably also address the fact that time stops for as long as you keep talking. Opening up the possibility of some sort of combat filibuster.
Also those rules only really come into play during combat, meaning you need to make all your peasants punch each other first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: LordPorkins on December 11, 2017, 10:59:04 am

Personally, I let it happen once when i  was DMing. But that was weird Situation. One of my players was trying out the “DM Patron” from Middle Finger of Vecna, which I will saw was incredibly well done in that its so up for interpretation. His character regularly tried to exploit physics, be it from the aforementioned railgun or the “Bag of Holding Shotgun” (Turning a BOH inside-out while running at 25 Meters per second). I usually let him have fun with the second one, Having each object deal damage at the cost of most likely shattering. The Peasant Railgun worked once, when they had to blow up a blockaded tunnel. None of the peasants were willing to go into battle though, so for the most part the Railgun stayed as a utility tool. However, I did let two warriors in lead armor hold up two iron greatshields, have someone cast lightning bolt in between them, then shoot an arrow through to create an actual (albeit rustic) railgun. Considering it took 3 players turns to accomplish this action, i just set the resulting arrow as a 6d8 guaranteed damage. They abandoned the tactic after a while.

As for how NPC’s perceive this, one of the ways we kept the Warlock DM Patron form effecting too much was we just had the NPC’s more or less shrug and accept it, assuming it was just some sort of magic that they couldn't conceive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on December 11, 2017, 11:09:26 am

I propose we call this Level .5 Philosopher Zeno's paradox. If free actions take up no time, do they even happen?

Still better than rolling for enunciation, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 11, 2017, 11:15:43 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 11, 2017, 10:51:05 am

we should probably also address the fact that time stops for as long as you keep talking. Opening up the possibility of some sort of combat filibuster.

Watch any anime with any sort of combat, sport or other physical conflict. It happens all the time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on December 11, 2017, 11:30:04 am

as far as I'm aware a free action can only be five seconds long or shorter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 11, 2017, 01:55:30 pm

Six seconds, technically. Even so, the best time to discuss battle plans is in the middle of battle, as exemplified here (https://youtu.be/qgBySAs6MVw).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 11, 2017, 02:31:34 pm

In 5E, talking isn't a free action. It actually says that you can only say somehing like a short warning during a combat round. Pretty sure most people homebrew it to being a free action again. And another thing, in 3.5 you can only use a reasonable amount of free actions.

The Peasant Railgun would only work if the line of peasants happened to have an initiative in which each person in line has the next turn.

And how would the Bag Of Holding Shotgun work? The items don't have any acceleration on them, seeing as they were in a different dimension until they were let out, and gravity doesn't start to work on them until the items are let out.
What you could do, is you could use the Bag of Holding to drop a lot of stuff on something after flying above the something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on December 11, 2017, 02:55:29 pm

question for the GMs (just because I'm curious, and it relates to my new character)
have you ever had a player try and make a half-troll, if so how did you have it work. I'm mostly interested in the character's size and regeneration (If you did do the limb removal thing how did you do it and what did the players think)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 11, 2017, 03:08:39 pm

A half-troll like what you'd want would normally be way too spicy to put into a regular party, no way that it doesn't give you some serious LA and no way it lets you actually regenerate (which is what I assume you mean with the limb removal thing - limbs fight on and that sort of thing). Like here's a homebrew example for 3.5 (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halftroll.shtml) and here's one for 5E (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Troll_(5e_Race)).

I recall there being guidelines in some book or another in 3.5 about how to homebrew up half-monster races which might be the closest thing to an official verdict since I don't think half-trolls figure much in legit D&D stuff, not even in Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on December 11, 2017, 03:20:39 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on December 11, 2017, 03:08:39 pm

A half-troll like what you'd want would normally be way too spicy to put into a regular party, no way that it doesn't give you some serious LA and no way it lets you actually regenerate (which is what I assume you mean with the limb removal thing - limbs fight on and that sort of thing). Like here's a homebrew example for 3.5 (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halftroll.shtml) and here's one for 5E (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Troll_(5e_Race)).

cool thanks for these links
I sent my GM the 3.5 one (he already saw the 5e one and said he didn't like a bit of the stuff in there).
I'm sure that at this point the GM and me are going to make a half-troll from scratch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 11, 2017, 05:07:48 pm

Digging a little deeper, the 3.5 template I posted looks to actually be official rather than homebrew, apparently it's from one of the Fiend Folios. Don't have any of those myself so I can't check to be sure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on December 11, 2017, 05:20:26 pm

just looked up the book (its available as a pdf) and there is no mention of half trolls or trollkin (another term I saw floating around)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Criptfeind on December 11, 2017, 05:23:53 pm

It's a template in the fiend folio, got in hand right now, it's on page 92.

I'm pretty sure the fiend folio wasn't released under ogl, so naughty website probably. But there's a lot of stuff around marked as "homebrew" to avoid getting hammered down I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 11, 2017, 06:10:14 pm

Almost every time I search an actual 3.5 thing and get a dandwiki hit, it's just unrelated homebrew given the same name.  It's got to where I actively scrub dandwiki from my history just to prevent it from showing up in autocomplete.

Not that all the homebrew is *bad*, it's just very distracting when I'm looking for content we're allowed to use.  (I do love the Red Mage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Red_Mage), and we are allowed to choose some of the *reasonable* flaws  (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Flaws)from amongst the ridiculous).

Edit:  Actually I must have misremembered, since this Red Mage is loosely based on actual Final Fantasy (instead of 8-bit Theater's version who believes in dice and constantly edits his "character sheet").

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on December 11, 2017, 07:17:55 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on December 11, 2017, 05:23:53 pm

It's a template in the fiend folio, got in hand right now, it's on page 92.

I'm pretty sure the fiend folio wasn't released under ogl, so naughty website probably. But there's a lot of stuff around marked as "homebrew" to avoid getting hammered down I guess.

"Home decantered"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on December 12, 2017, 06:25:57 am

Got a question for the hive-mind tabletop players here: How badly as a player could you break a game if you were given a box that summons a humanoid creature on command?

Basically, I'm thinking of adding a Mr Meeseeks box to my Pathfinder game, but I wanna anticipate how badly things could go wrong beforehand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on December 12, 2017, 06:35:27 am

The whole point of giving people a Mr. Meeseeks box is to gleefully break the game, with the side effect that the GM is gonna be gleefully breaking it right back against them.

If it works exactly like its inspiration, that doesn't sound to me like a super exploitable humanoid on his own. Kind of like a way less powerful version of a genie, probably some kind of NPC expert with skill ranks in Profession (all). In which case you could probably outsource your crafting to them and do stuff like that, but not something more outlandish than what a wizard can do anyway. The main breaking avenues seem to be having the humanoid summon his own humanoids, but that's just the players handing an opportunity to you as a GM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on December 12, 2017, 08:57:36 am

I was thinking of giving the Mr Meeseeks the stats of a sentient wax golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-wax/). On summoning it gains Int 10, 8 skill ranks, and two feats (usually skill focus feats), with skills determined by the task it was summoned to perform. Thus a Mr Meeseeks summoned to assist a Craft check would have a +7 bonus from 4 ranks and a skill focus feat. It would function in all other ways as the Unseen Servant spell, unable to attack or take any offensive actions in combat.

For the backfire risk, I'd thought I'd add a 1% cumulative chance every hour after summoning one that it goes berserk unless it's fulfilled the request it was summoned to perform, gaining the benefits of a barbarian's rage, regeneration 5 that cannot be removed, and an uncontrollable desire to kill it's summoner, after which it disappears. Thus, summoning one for a day would have a 24% chance of mental break.

If you summon more than one at a time, I'd figured their chance of going berserk stacks, so having ten active means a cumulative 10% chance of them going berserk after one hour, or 100% chance after 10 hours.

Edit: Also, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKBbUdfvwrU).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on December 12, 2017, 10:00:25 am

why not have it so you have to pay to use the box, something like you need to put x amount of wax before you can summon the wax golem. why not have it so every time the wax golem is summoned the price changes (roll a d20 for the next price, so a 1 will cost 1 once of wax and a 20 will cost 20 ounces of wax).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 19, 2017, 11:04:15 am

So, I wondered, "What is faster in 5E Dnd, a wood-elf mystic, or an aarakocra monk?".
I have found the answer to that question.
The answer is... It depends.
The answer depends on the situation. However, in an optimum situation (including magic items) for both of them, and in a single round, the mystic moves 1080 feet, while the monk moves 480 feet. And that is without allowing multi-classing, or taking a bonus action as a regular action.

Related, can one use the mystic's disciplines as a regular and bonus action in the same turn, or is it like spells?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Telgin on December 20, 2017, 11:27:49 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2017, 08:57:36 am

I was thinking of giving the Mr Meeseeks the stats of a sentient wax golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-wax/). On summoning it gains Int 10, 8 skill ranks, and two feats (usually skill focus feats), with skills determined by the task it was summoned to perform. Thus a Mr Meeseeks summoned to assist a Craft check would have a +7 bonus from 4 ranks and a skill focus feat. It would function in all other ways as the Unseen Servant spell, unable to attack or take any offensive actions in combat.

For the backfire risk, I'd thought I'd add a 1% cumulative chance every hour after summoning one that it goes berserk unless it's fulfilled the request it was summoned to perform, gaining the benefits of a barbarian's rage, regeneration 5 that cannot be removed, and an uncontrollable desire to kill it's summoner, after which it disappears. Thus, summoning one for a day would have a 24% chance of mental break.

If you summon more than one at a time, I'd figured their chance of going berserk stacks, so having ten active means a cumulative 10% chance of them going berserk after one hour, or 100% chance after 10 hours.

Edit: Also, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKBbUdfvwrU).

Beware, if you're rolling for it to go berserk every hour, that probability doesn't work out quite like you'd expect.  If you left a flat 1% chance to go crazy every hour that didn't increase, then every hour you roll the dice and there's a chance it goes insane.

So, first hour, 99% chance you're fine.  Second hour, 99% x 99% chance = 98.01%.  Then 97.02%, and so on.  After 24 hours (and 24 rolls), you'd have a 78.56% chance of it not having gone berserk.

If you increase the odds of it going insane every hour, it deteriorates much more rapidly.  99% of being fine, then 99% x 98% = 97.02%, then 94.1%, 90.3%, 95.8%, 80.7%, 75.03%, etc.

Not to mention it's a lot of rolling percentile dice if you do roll every hour.  :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on December 21, 2017, 01:26:45 am

Yeah, it's more of an n+1% chance increase. 0% within the first hour, 1% after 1 hour, 2% after 2 hours, etc. Roll every hour, add all Mr Meeseeks together to get total.

Anyhow, I've come up with a quest line that includes this artifact as a possible reward. One of my players took about 8 Wisdom drain last session, and since their cleric's player is away for Christmas visiting family, they're stuck without anyone able to heal this.

Since they're in town for awhile, I've created a three option quest. The local church of Abadar, Lawful Neutral god of money, will either heal them for an extortionate amount of gold, or for free if they can bring an outsider that's held in a summoning circle within the local temple of Nethys (it's an elemental called a Crystallis that petrifies creatures into crystal and valuable gemstones). The temple of Nethys, True Neutral god of magic, creation and destruction, refuses to heal them unless they destroy a cursed mirror owned by a witch that lives on the outskirts of town. The local witch, a Chaotic Neutral NPC who has powerful fey allies, offers to heal them if they rob the local church of Abadar's vault and retrieve an artifact for her, one that summons unlimited servants (the Mr Meeseeks box).

Don't know if they'll take the quest bait, but I'm prepped for it anyhow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Cruxador on December 21, 2017, 09:56:05 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2017, 06:25:57 am

Got a question for the hive-mind tabletop players here: How badly as a player could you break a game if you were given a box that summons a humanoid creature on command?

Basically, I'm thinking of adding a Mr Meeseeks box to my Pathfinder game, but I wanna anticipate how badly things could go wrong beforehand.

I think there's a massive risk that you're ignoring which is bigger than any mechanical concern, which is that the players will realize your inspiration and the rest of the session will go down the toilet as the party devolves into a mess of shitty referential humor and talking about shows. The Monty Python problem, as it were.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on December 21, 2017, 10:34:45 am

Quote from: Cruxador on December 21, 2017, 09:56:05 am

The Monty Python problem, as it were.

Hehe, clever reference.  I should bring that up at DND Saturday- oh no it's memetic

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on December 21, 2017, 01:26:01 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on December 21, 2017, 09:56:05 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2017, 06:25:57 am

Got a question for the hive-mind tabletop players here: How badly as a player could you break a game if you were given a box that summons a humanoid creature on command?

Basically, I'm thinking of adding a Mr Meeseeks box to my Pathfinder game, but I wanna anticipate how badly things could go wrong beforehand.

I think there's a massive risk that you're ignoring which is bigger than any mechanical concern, which is that the players will realize your inspiration and the rest of the session will go down the toilet as the party devolves into a mess of shitty referential humor and talking about shows. The Monty Python problem, as it were.

I don't know the source material, but couldn't you just have it be a classic genie, instead of a wax golem, without the possibly game-devolving reference?

Apparently, according to the errata, a Pact of the Chain warlock must use his reaction if he
wants his familiar to attack. Why should this be weaker than a regular wizard's Find Familiar spell? After all, the errata doesn't state the Find Familiar spell is changed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Biowraith on December 22, 2017, 02:03:19 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 21, 2017, 01:26:01 pm

Apparently, according to the errata, a Pact of the Chain warlock must use his reaction if he
wants his familiar to attack. Why should this be weaker than a regular wizard's Find Familiar spell? After all, the errata doesn't state the Find Familiar spell is changed.

Normally the familiar from Find Familiar is not allowed to attack (from the spell description: "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal"), the Pact of the Chain is an exception to that.

Also, it's the familiar that uses its reaction when you want it to attack, not the Warlock (though the Warlock does have to forgo one of their own attacks to let the familiar attack).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on December 22, 2017, 06:40:36 pm

They fed weird goo to their own crewmember? How wasteful! You should only do that sort of thing to enemies. I mean, I assume they must have enough of themselves left to man the ship, but not having minions means you have to do all the ship crewing duties yourself. Not to mention they're now down a meat shield.

It sounds like your players are doing a terrible job of being evil, and you should shame them for that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 22, 2017, 07:19:50 pm

A scientist can only test on the subjects he has.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on December 30, 2017, 07:57:27 pm

Stars Without Number: Revised Edition (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/226996/Stars-Without-Number-Revised-Edition?manufacturers_id=3482) has been released, along with a free version (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/230009/Stars-Without-Number-Revised-Edition-Free-Version?manufacturers_id=3482), just like the original version had.

Also, like the original version, the free version has all that's needed to play and/or run the game, while the paid version has non-essential extra rules and stuff. I won't bother to list the exact differences between versions, as they're already listed in the description of both versions, but if do you have any questions about what's in the paid version content, I can answer them since I already own a copy since I backed the Kickstarter for this new version, and therefore got access to beta versions earlier and was notified of it's release when I got the final version today.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on December 30, 2017, 08:05:45 pm

Quote from: greatorder on December 22, 2017, 06:14:41 pm

So, my players for my D&D campaigns are definitely becoming more and more evil.

All but one of their ship's crew got slaughtered by some weird red goo ship that created creatures out of said red goo. How do they respond?

"Lets cut off some of this ship. Oh look, it's turned into red goo! I know, time to force-feed the survivor (who has literally voided themselves in fear) this goo and see what happens!"

They... had a bad time. Then because it's totally not a protomolecule expy, their corpse started to behave rather weirdly. So they tied it to the ship and watched what happened. It eventually exploded into a "spore" (really some weird large hairy seed/spore things) cloud, so they captured some spores with plans to either:
A) Test them on unwitting victims
B) Release them when they're getting pissed off by a person

This kind of shit will catch up with them, mind. At this rate they're likely to wind up victims of the goo and spend an eternity as a consciousness contained inside it unable to die and living in mute horror.

One of them started chaotic neutral, they've become evil. The other one started off evil, so it's hardly a surprise.

They also managed to piss off an eldritch-lite living island by setting a chunk of it on fire. They managed to forget they'd been told it was alive in some weird way, and figured that setting a building on top of it on fire by using a large bottle of absinthe and a lot of office supplies was a good idea.

Sounds like typical adventurers really.

Though yeah, it could very well backfire on them with a natural one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Telgin on December 30, 2017, 10:06:17 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on December 30, 2017, 07:57:27 pm

Stars Without Number: Revised Edition (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/226996/Stars-Without-Number-Revised-Edition?manufacturers_id=3482) has been released, along with a free version (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/230009/Stars-Without-Number-Revised-Edition-Free-Version?manufacturers_id=3482), just like the original version had.

The link is giving me some kind of weird redirect loop on my phone, but I forwarded it to the GM of my SWN group to see what they say about it.

I've played the original version some and like the system in general, even if it's more old school than I generally prefer. 

Shockingly our group made it to level 2 without anyone dying, despite nobody having more than 5 HP and most attacks doing more than that much damage on average.  Had a few close calls though, including my character shooting another PC when he first showed up because he thought he was a pirate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2018, 02:17:48 am

We sure are a motley crew, us privateers.
Necromancer:  Proudly LE, except when Good authorities ask
Kobold:  LE, but had identity stolen by a tengu who I'm pretty sure explicitly responded with a "idk" regarding morality.  Arcane spellcaster, no sense of right and wrong.
Frenzied Berserker:  Chaotic neutral, but only shows up ever second session, and I have calm emotions ready to avoid FF.  To avoid MORE FF, after he KILLED ME
Priest?:  Carries a decoy spellbook but is Shugenja, neutral neutral, obsessed with elementals and truly can't care less about the 3x3 alignment grid.  My character.

We killed a bone devil tyrant last session!  We weren't expecting a big session, but we were presently surprised!  We were gently encouraged to raise up the locals, found and allied with the local Tengu Guardian (a Pathfinder thing, we're 3.5).

My character was technically invested because The Great Reincarnation Table rolled "father a child with another player character", so there's kinda a stupid thing going on there with the tengu PC.  BUT ALSO, the town we were liberating hosted the largest library in the world, which earned my interest as a worshiper of Boccob (The god of "things happen, books are forever")

Long story short:
tl;dr:
We had a clutch fight against a (very houseruled) bone devil with our (very houseruled) equipment, and through good fortune, succeeded!
(Especially since I insisted on recruiting a certain wizard to cast Dimensional Anchor so the cur couldn't leave (or gate in allies, which our GM didn't realize was affected hehe))

While our LE necromancer browsed between rounds, researching his necrophiliac urges (he's a Pale Master, it's in the Libris Mortis!  Class feature!).  Also trying to become a lich because idk, we don't ask why kobolds kobold, we're pirates privateers yarrr!

Thing is, we're generally pretty nice for privateers ^_^
We even rescued some orcs from the ocean, with my elemental water friends!  They were drowning because they were sailing a raft in the deep ocean, because the Green Flash at Sunset had uh somehow revived them.
We even tried to return them home!!  They had extreme futureshock from the very concept of buildings.
So yeah, they've joined our crew, along with the necromancer's skeletons.  (the orcs calmed down when the necromancer described us as a party of shamans (largely almost true)).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on January 02, 2018, 02:20:20 am

Does Calm Emotions end barbarian rages? Should it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2018, 02:23:47 am

It does in our setting, and ho boy, that has saved our asses!

I actually have it as an "at-touch" on my ceremonial Shugenja... Wakizashi, to be honest.
I can't deal appreciable damage with it, I simply use it to bash (or slash) people for at will Calm Emotions.  Which would technically make it an artifact by a reasonable metric.

To clerify (heheh, leaving that):  This is a FRENZIED BERSERKER, who can and has murdered allies in the FRENZY, not rage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2018, 02:30:24 am

Spoiler: And for reference, the GOOD reincarnation table: (click to show/hide)

(https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0258/89/1373320668249.jpg)

We didn't have to make the final roll for the bottom options
They insisted

Edit:  I suppose the kicker is that I originally rolled a 77, and died again.
And when I rerolled, I was the same damn race.

..Except I am a desert halfling, which I decided meant Khajiit-esque.  I choose to play that as a penalty to my compulsive interjections, in that they become in-character if they embarass my character.

"Khajiit Findon is innocent of all crimes!  Findon does not even know Halem!"
...
"Findon wonders whether Halem has fireball prepared..." says Findon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2018, 03:00:25 am

Quote from: scriver on January 02, 2018, 02:20:20 am

Does Calm Emotions end barbarian rages? Should it?

Yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm)
"as well as negating a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage ability"
It dispels a few things I would not have relied on, honestly.

And yeah it should, because it allows a will save.
Hold Person is the same level and paralyzes.  Also with a will save.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 15, 2018, 06:28:58 pm

Just dropping by to tell you to check out these (https://rendedpress.blogspot.com/2016/11/list-of-d-module-walkthrough-maps-by.html) "walkthroughs" of various classic DnD modals by some very unfortunate parties.

And an evil barbershop adventure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on January 17, 2018, 04:21:55 am

*buys another round*
Alright so look, we beat the bone demon.  Devil?  Did I tell that story already?  Shut up, I'm telling a story here.

Afterwards we had some nice downtime, see?  Back in the city of light- city of magic!  I had been planning a sweet gig, providing cranked-up healing potions.  Hired an apprentice and everything, it was all gravy, except the weird dreams.
Every dang night.  There he was, just recitin' some tome of names and numbers.  Gods and devils and stuff, but like... all of them!  It took a week to get through the A's.

And we remembered every bit.  Well, except the birb who's helping me looking after the dragonling.  She din't have the mark, see, from where he reincarnated me with teh chaos magicks.

Except one day she did have the mark and our necromancer din't!  I digress.  *buys a round*.

We sailed north.  Well, I assume.  I was asleep on count of t' morphine they dosed me with.  I wouldn't stop screaming "NORTH", apparently.  It's a good thing that it's so easy to cure addiction in this world.
Uh, not that they have...  Frick, that's on me, is it?  Yeah...

We descended into a cave of terrible horrors.  Undead skeletons, ya, but with tiny automata crawling all o'r them!  I got hit, and the little fucks started burr'ing into my arm!  Like tiny microcline-colored worms!

Did I say "we" descended?  Teh fucks sealed the entrance after me, and went back to the ship.

I mean, I'm a spellcaster in a 3.5 setting, so you know...  Dimension Door'd back to the ship, got the corpsecrafter medic to extract the things.  Good thing, too- they were burrowing to my heart!
We know, because we did some experiments with the "medic"'s undead.  Even without flesh, these things seek the ribcage.

Oh also my idjit "friends" set the island on fire, after sealing me in.  Almost as rude as wearing armor, amirite?  I am.  Another round!
And I'm not even to the... the miltanks...  *snoz*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on January 20, 2018, 04:15:51 pm

Which Pathfinder firearm commonality level would you guys recommend for a Thirty Years' War-style setting? I was thinking Commonplace Guns:

Quote

Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

because pike & shot warfare doesn't really mesh with the "wtf is a gun" mentality of Emerging Guns:

Quote

Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths, dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. The baseline gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this chapter are for this type of campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Adventurers who want to use guns must take the Gunsmithing feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves.

but I'm not sure how well-balanced Commonplace is. I was thinking of reducing the discount and removing the availability of advanced firearms; thoughts?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 20, 2018, 04:23:30 pm

Well, both matchlock and wheellock muskets were present in the thirty years war, so I'd say commonplace.

True rifling had been invented by the mid 15th century, but wasn't used en masse for a variety of reasons, so it's not impossible they should be able to get their hands on them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on January 20, 2018, 04:28:24 pm

It was more the revolvers and shotguns that I felt wouldn't fit. I suppose I'll just cut those instead. Thanks!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 20, 2018, 04:47:34 pm

Well, back then the difference between shotguns and other firearms back then were how many and what size bullets you put down the barrel.

Paper cartridges have been in use since the 14th century, though integrated cartridges were invented in 1800s.

Similiarly, multi-chambered firearms have existed for a lot longer than you think. Such as:

Spoiler: Detail of an 8-chambered matchlock revolver (Germany c. 1580) (click to show/hide)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver#/media/File:Drehling_GNM_W1984_ca_1580.jpg)

Personally I'd let people have them. They're rare, and they might need to commission a gunsmith or buy them off a specialist, but players are exceptional characters by nature. No harm in letting them have them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on January 20, 2018, 05:07:16 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 20, 2018, 04:47:34 pm

Well, back then the difference between shotguns and other firearms back then were how many and what size bullets you put down the barrel.

Paper cartridges have been in use since the 14th century, though integrated cartridges were invented in 1800s.

Similiarly, multi-chambered firearms have existed for a lot longer than you think. Such as:

Spoiler: Detail of an 8-chambered matchlock revolver (Germany c. 1580) (click to show/hide)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Drehling_GNM_W1984_ca_1580.jpg)

Personally I'd let people have them. They're rare, and they might need to commission a gunsmith or buy them off a specialist, but players are exceptional characters by nature. No harm in letting them have them.

fixd das fuhr dich

Also now I really want a revolving matchlock rifle

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on January 20, 2018, 05:07:48 pm

Wow, I had no idea about that. I'd always been under the impression that revolvers were more of an 1800s invention. Thanks again!

The bit about shotguns was because the game already has blunderbusses in it, and from what I can tell "shotgun" usually refers to similar weapons from the 18th century onward. I suppose I could just describe the ones in the rules as exceptionally good blunderbusses... I don't know if anyone will actually want a shotgun, anyway :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on January 20, 2018, 05:08:51 pm

Can I have a revolving matchlock shotgun revolver?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on January 22, 2018, 05:23:10 am

Pathfinder has a early firearm revolver, the pepperbox. It's a 6-shooter that works similar to a flintlock. As for a shotgun, no such luck per the Pathfinder rules, although if you're in the market, you can get the Taurus Judge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Judge) five-shot revolver that shoots shotgun shells, because of course you can get a bloody huge hand-cannon in the USA.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on January 22, 2018, 07:50:44 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 22, 2018, 05:23:10 am

Pathfinder has a early firearm revolver, the pepperbox. It's a 6-shooter that works similar to a flintlock. As for a shotgun, no such luck per the Pathfinder rules, although if you're in the market, you can get the Taurus Judge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Judge) five-shot revolver that shoots shotgun shells, because of course you can get a bloody huge hand-cannon in the USA.

Objection! This statement is misleading. The Judge is able to chamber a very small shotgun shell,  one smaller than this bullet. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt) Wouldn't even make it into the top ten lists for muzzle velocity or caliber.

If you want a real revolver, much like a real knife, you need to head to Australia and pick up the Pfeifer-Zeliska and its absurd .6 cartridges.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: milo christiansen on January 22, 2018, 08:48:28 am

Yeah, 410 shotshells are about the smallest dedicated shotgun rounds you can get. IIRC there are quite a few pistols that can handle them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on January 22, 2018, 01:30:43 pm

I mean, one could argue that a sawn-off shotgun is converted into a pistol. It's certainly used for the same sort of reasons and often falls under the same laws.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on January 22, 2018, 01:32:14 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on January 22, 2018, 01:30:43 pm

I mean, one could argue that a sawn-off shotgun is converted into a pistol. It's certainly used for the same sort of reasons and often falls under the same laws.

What you want is the Serbu Super Shorty. (https://serbu.com/products/super-shorty-1)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 03, 2018, 06:45:46 am

I got a new player in my group for the first time in a few years, he's an old friend who has decades of experience with AD&D, but this is only his second time with a Palladium game.  He's coping so far but the poor layout of the books is giving him trouble, and due to his own hangups, I'm having some problems gauging where he needs me to step in and help.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SalmonGod on February 03, 2018, 04:53:00 pm

Which Palladium game?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 03, 2018, 05:00:57 pm

Splicers, fairly heavily modified setting wise, so those parts of the book aren't very important.  Where we're running into trouble is the piss-poor way the actual content is arranged, he's having problems with the amount of shifting back and forth through the book to find things (and the need to either write down a bunch of information that becomes meaningless after character creation or have several pages ear-marked simultaneously.)  We're making progress, but the already painfully long character creation process has stretched out over three sessions now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SalmonGod on February 03, 2018, 05:05:42 pm

Palladium is pretty broken, system-wise.  It's a shame, because I love some of their content anyway.  Nightbane, for example, is a great setting.  If I ever try to play any of their stuff again, I'll go to the trouble of adapting their ideas to a different system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 03, 2018, 05:32:19 pm

I'm a twenty-year Palladium veteran, believe me, I know how utterly broken it is.  New player just called a bit ago, he's feeling pretty sick so he won't make it this session, gives him more time to read the book tho' so not a complete loss.

I love K.S.' ideas, but he's an absolutely terrible writer and editor, and the product suffers for it, immensely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: heydude6 on February 03, 2018, 11:33:40 pm

Would you say it’s worse or better than shadowrun mechanics-wise? I don’t care if the information is confusingly presented, but if you actually put in the effort to understand the rules, will you get something enjoyable?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 04, 2018, 01:31:26 am

To be completely honest, the rules are so screwed up that the game is basically unplayable in its default state.  The core mechanics were built to be an alternative to AD&D 2nd edition, and they work okay for PFRPG (Palladium Fantasy RPG), and to a limited extent in the other low-power (standard damage or S.D. in Palladium products), but once you shift to the high-power titles (RIFTS, Robotech, Splicers, other mega-damage/M.D. settings) the systems just fall apart.

The ideas and core concepts backing the Palladium system are fairly solid, with lots of variation and some pretty involved settings, but the mechanics are just not adequate at all.

Here's an example:

You are falling off a very tall building, when you hit the ground you take S.D./hit point damage from the fall that scales to the distance travelled, so this works.

A car is falling from the same very high building, it takes S.D. that scales to the fall, but does NOT scale to the weight/size of the vehicle, so right there we already have a problem.

An advanced super heavy tank is falling from the building, it takes S.D. as above, but it is a M.D. structure, so unless the total damage from the fall exceeds 100 S.D./hitpoints, it takes NO DAMAGE.  Now the mechanic is not functioning at all.

A demon is falling from the building, as a M.D. supernatural being it also only takes damage if the total exceeds 100 S.D. (and it must deal another 100 S.D. for each additional point of M.D.)

Here's the kicker: That tank has several hundred M.D., so even if the total damage from the fall is high enough to do some damage, it will be almost meaninglessly small, and the demon has potentially THOUSANDS of M.D., and regenerates several M.D. per second making the whole exercise pointless.

That is just one of the many ways that the core mechanics are broken, I could probably write a fairly substantial breakdown of what doesn't work in the game, but that would be several pages long.

Shadowrun's mechanics are very involved, but they actually work, Palladium's mechanics just don't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 04, 2018, 02:12:31 am

Makes sense. If you're super anime buff, you don't worry about falling damage. This simplifies all sorts of awesome and unnecessary high-power combat techniques.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 04, 2018, 02:51:15 am

Except that it doesn't, due to innumerable other massive issues.  Not the least of which is how combat actually functions in Palladium titles.  It is entirely possible, and even probable, that a first level character can have a +11 to dodge or strike (or both), on a D20 roll.  This system is broken to hell and back in every imaginable way.

I am not exaggerating when I say that a single battle with less than half a dozen combatants can take four hours of table time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on February 04, 2018, 04:07:52 am

To be fair, a first level combat with my five man Pathfinder group can also take four hours, given their typical approach to combat.

Step 1: Spend about half an hour beforehand scouting/stealthing around looking for back doors and traps.
Step 2: Overthink things and try some insane gambit to bypass/distract/knock out enemies before combat.
Step 3: Spend a solid ten minutes getting Perception checks, Knowledge checks, Sense Motive checks and the like out of the way.
Step 4: Partially engage before every person charges off in their own direction instead of working together, including the one guy that goes off to fetch the city guard.
Step 5: Arrive to your turn unprepared with your actions, agonize over it for five minutes, have half the rest of the table shouting suggestions.
Step 6: Finally decide some kind of action, only to discover there's some rules question involved that is in debate, spend another five minutes looking it up.
Step 7: Repeat step 5 and 6 for each player's turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 04, 2018, 05:31:14 am

I'm talking about the ROLLING.  Not the planning, not the actions, just the GODDAMN ROLLING.

Declare attack, roll to hit, roll to dodge, over and over and over and over and over again because either no one can hit anything or no one can take damage, FOREVER.

And then absolutely everything has inordinate amounts of health, and absolutely NOTHING deals any meaningful amount of damage!

The highest damaging attack spell in the whole of RIFTS does around 1D6x100, and takes actual minutes of time to cast, but when your target has in the realm of 21,000 MDC it really doesn't amount to jack shit.

The best man-portable heavy energy weapon in the whole damned setting deals 3D6x10+10 MD, and takes an entire minute to cooldown between shots, each melee round is fifteen seconds, and the average character will have five to seven actions during that period, with reloads taking an action, dodging taking an action (unless you have autododge, which is used automatically against every single incoming attack), even if the only words spoken are; "I shoot it with my rifle" it still takes freaking HOURS to take down a couple of basic hostiles, nevermind a multi-thousand MD demon or dragon, and gods help you against multi-crewed combat vehicles, which might have twenty attacks each round with weapons that actually have some moderate punch, but almost never HIT anything.

Palladium is freaking broken beyond your ability to imagine unless you've actually tried to use it as written, and that is the most goddamn horrifying thing I can imagine doing, next to trying to play FATAL.

If those hours were used productively I wouldn't even have mentioned the length of time it takes, combat is a straight up nightmare in all Palladium titles unless you houserule the entire thing to flow in a vaguely sane format.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 04, 2018, 09:03:56 am

At this point, I'm wondering why you even bother with it. Palladium doesn't sound very fun at all, and you seem to have nothing but complaints about the system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 04, 2018, 09:19:52 am

Setting and material.  The mechanics have to be gutted to make it work but the core ideas are really compelling stuff.  I wish K.S. would hand the actual mechanical stuff off to someone with the right head for it, because once you've torn apart the bad parts (which is entirely badly constructed rules) everything else fits together nicely.

It's like buying a busted muscle car to restore, what you start with is a wreck, but once you've repaired and replaced everything, you've got a sweet ride.

I'm not going to lie tho', Palladium books is really frustrating as hell, because you can see what the settings want to be, but they're bundled with trash you really don't want to deal with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SalmonGod on February 04, 2018, 01:20:02 pm

I like Palladium's lesser-known games that focus hard on an interesting setting.  But their most popular game is Rifts, which is sort of like a proto-40K.  Super over-the-top sci-fi setting that shoehorns in excuses to accomodate every idea ever dialed up to 11.  Thought that kind of thing was genius when I was a 14.  Now I see it as just a lazy cop-out to avoid having to write anything coherent. 

Rifts is probably the source of a lot of the mechanical problems NFO is referring to, because they try to develop all of their other games as being part of a multiverse, with the Rifts world as a nexus that ties them all together.  But it doesn't really work.  I think a lot of the shitty mechanics were developed as a shoddy effort to make all these things compatible when thrown together into Rifts.

I'll always refer to Nightbane as the example of what they do right.  Love the concept behind that one.  It's like X-Men, but with an apocalyptic omen as its origin event and mysterious celestial beings appearing at the same time to use earth as their battleground in some light/dark struggle.  And the book leaves it up to you to determine what these things mean, if you tackle it in your game at all.  There's no canon explanation, which I think is cool.  They have other good settings, but I couldn't recite any of them now.  Nightbane is the only one I own, and it's been like 15 years since I paid any attention to Palladium.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 04, 2018, 01:31:34 pm

Anybody here ever play a game in the Midnight setting? I've been interested in it a long time, but like most everything published by FFG it's gone to the ether. The concept of a dystopian post-Sauron victory world resonates with me, but being that I'd have to drop $200 to get my hands on an actual book I don't know much more.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 08, 2018, 10:54:57 pm

An... interesting... 3rd party class got released yesterday by tweet.  Old Spice couldn't say it was for DND 3.5, but it's totally for 3.5.
Yeah... Old Spice.  Like the gentleman on a horse.  That's... that's one of the class abilities, suddenly being on a horse.

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/02/08/dungeons-and-dragons-old-spice-/  (Where my friend found it, good summary)
https://twitter.com/OldSpice/status/961362988019064832  (Has download link, and some communication from the devs about possible errata)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550552-Old-Spice-base-class-The-Gentleman  (Because of course there's a GiantITP thread lol)

We got a laugh out of it anyway :P  It's an advertisement of course (as one of the class powers states), but a very targeted one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on February 09, 2018, 04:31:33 am

Thanks for the link Rolan7!

Ultimately, I think if this was ever a real class, it'd be a cheap way to dip Charisma to AC for tanky pajama builds. This of course assumes the gentleman's uniform is not classed as light armor, which isn't explicitly mentioned. I can see something like a Monk 2/Gentleman 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Stuff to get Wis, Cha and Con to AC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on February 09, 2018, 06:23:01 pm

I gotta say, Pathfinder alchemists are brutal NPC opponents.

This week my group got to fight a cambion alchemist in an underground cave filled with magma, crossed by rickety rope bridges. Tossing five bombs a round for 6d6+11 damage against touch AC is a nasty combo. Ended up with one PC on 8 hp, another on 1 hp, and killed a third PC's cohort before they had to teleport away with the corpse to avoid losing them into the magma.

Hopefully, this will motivate the group to buy up more consumable protections like scrolls and potions for pre-battle prep. I've been giving them plenty of wealth in loot, but they're failing to spend any of it on small purchases, instead saving it all for big items.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 09, 2018, 06:37:18 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 09, 2018, 04:31:33 am

Thanks for the link Rolan7!

Ultimately, I think if this was ever a real class, it'd be a cheap way to dip Charisma to AC for tanky pajama builds. This of course assumes the gentleman's uniform is not classed as light armor, which isn't explicitly mentioned. I can see something like a Monk 2/Gentleman 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Stuff to get Wis, Cha and Con to AC.

I'd take a level of wiz or sorcerer just so I can use prestigitation to give people and things the wonderful smell of Old Spice (tm).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on February 09, 2018, 06:42:52 pm

Or just be a gnome, they get it as a racial ability!
...Seem like a fairly good fit for the class, too, being all about presentation/illusion/japes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on February 09, 2018, 11:52:37 pm

Figured it's worth mentioning here that Matt Colville launched a Kickstarter today for a strongholds guide for D&D 5e (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/255133215/strongholds-and-streaming), which, as of this writing, is already over 1200% funded.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wobbly on February 10, 2018, 02:45:55 am

Quote from: Sirus on February 04, 2018, 09:03:56 am

At this point, I'm wondering why you even bother with it. Palladium doesn't sound very fun at all, and you seem to have nothing but complaints about the system.

Palladium has some fairly cool settings but shoddy mechanics. You can have some fun min/maxing characters for stuff like running speed. Stuff like running at 100 km/hr etc. Honestly I think they are just a bit lazy about cleaning up the final product. Still fun with the right group/setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: highmax28 on February 10, 2018, 05:02:21 pm

DM had us restart the pathfinder game he had with all new players save myself.

Setting is 20's/40's-style era where guns are commonplace and urbanization is starting to take hold.

Party consists of:

- Half-orc fFghter who's a cab/getaway driver for the mafia, uses acid rounds in his shotgun ans established as party tank
- Silph Witch widow who's deceased husband was with the mafia
- Catfolk rogue who owns a mafia-run bar/gambling den
- Ifrit alchemist who seems to be the mot level headed of the mafia bunch
- Aasimar sorceress who's with the local police force
- Pixie sorceress who's essentially deadpool
- Myself as human vigilante, and the only one who's played pathfinder before and used to how DM plays

Campaign is essentially us going around and lowering the crime rate of the city we're in in time for he world's fair and this world's equivalent of the world series. Our first task is finding a serial killer called the Clockwork Killer, who seems to be targeting clockmakers/vendors. Arriving, we search the building and are told he was stabbed to death, nothing was taken but a lot of the clocks were destroyed. A few checks later, we discover only digital clocks are broken (DM confirmed that Digital clocks came up around this era in real life), and searching the owner's room upstairs, we found two constructs in the closet who we confirmed were the killers. After a ridiculous fight involving the alchemist getting shot and nearly dying and nearly setting the building on fire, I took their weapons for analysis and we proceeded to continue our investigation. We found out that a lot of the clocks that were broken were made by a company owned by a gnome named Hamelton.

I ended up missing this part, but the party ended up breaking into Hamelton's HQ and found cocaine in his office (and pixie deadpool wanted to replace it with chalk she had on hand, but was told against it). By then, the day was late and we had to leave. Party met back up to meet Hamelton in his house and discovered a note with a riddle on it and that Hamelton was kidnapped. The note, upon discerning it, was discovered to be taken to a clocktower and at the strike of 8 he would be killed. We ended up finding him in record time and found him, as well as several constructs we fought earlier, in one of the clocktowers we guessed right away.

Interseting tidbit, this encounter was changed from vampires to constructs. For what reason? I don't know, but it suited what was going on. Unfortunately, it was at this point that, myself as a glass cannon, found out I had more HP and AC than the fighter who said he was our tank, and the encounter almost had us get completely destroyed. Funnily enough, Hamelton, who was being an asshole to us most of the time, wasn't in any immediate danger and was left dangling uncomfortably on cogs that would kill him if we weren't fast enough (a reminder that he was to be killed at 8pm, and we arrived at about 11am-1pm). So the entire fight, we were left with a very angry gnome yelling at us while we fought. During the fight, one of our sorceresses ended up casting a fire based spell and missed, causing her to hit gears and such while the other one, who focused on ice magic, kept missing as well, which started to cause the clocktower to malfunction and nearly collapse on us. We barely had time to escape and, being that I had potions of flying at my disposal, I ended up carrying the gnome by his leg and leaping out of the building and flying to the ground while the gnome cussed me out.

Hamelton gave us some names and we begun investigations from there. The first man we ran into was a halfling named Cogsworth. After a breif talk with him, we figured we had our lead (one of the others was known to be eccentric), but wanted to confirm so by visiting the other name. We found out that the next one, who was an elf, was still well off despite being run out of business and the party split up, with Pixie deadpool using a ring of invisibility to scope the place out and the rogue sneaking in and searching for things as the rest of us questioned the man. The rogue found a locked door and found a horrifying sight.

For some context, a huge war happened 150 years or so prior where the elves started a conquest of the world and almost won, if it wasn't for the dwarves, orcs and human nations allying together and repelling the elves. In the retaliation attack, it was discovered that the elves had made concentration camps for halflings, dwarves and gnomes, cementing the fact that the DM made the elves Nazis.

In this basement, they discovered not only was this clockmaker a nazi, but he had a shrine dedicated to the nazis in his basement, as well as pictures of himself seen as one of the high ranking officers causing these war crimes. After the questioning group cemented the culprit, the rogue went to the elf, disguised as another elf (she had disguise self at-will) and essentially convinced him that he was caught and that he should show up to her bar.

We ended up going to the last, and all but confirmed, culprit of this and found he wasn't home. We did, however, find bootlegger tunnels in his basement and we started to follow them. Our alchemist was trained in survival and started to follow signs of where this man went, only to hear strange noises the opposite way. The police officer turned and headed that way with the rest of us in tow, only to discover a naked goblin in the tunnels who ran up to the officer and punched her in the chest. What proceeded to happen was pixie deadpool casting hideous laughter which caused the goblin to laugh uncontrollably and the officer, who's player I discovered isn't exactly playing her character as a police officer, proceeds to try and drown the goblin in sewer water. I had to step in at this point, being the only character in this party that was actually "good" and scared the officer as I pulled the goblin out and cast him aside.

After the goblin incident, we ended up finding a ladder that was clearly out of place and climbed it, and at the top we found the culprit working on a construct that was colossal size. I attempted to intimidate him, but even with a 50+ on the die, his insanity made him immune to fear and we watched as he was torn apart and put inside the construct, which began to power up and attack us.

Here's where things went weird. Rothman (the criminal) nat 1's a save against the sleep spell, and we proceeded to set ourselves up for a heavy strike on him, only for him to wake up randomly without anyone knowing why. He then tries to attack the fighter but fails miserably, which leads into my turn where I realized how overpowered I seemed to the rest of the party since I had boots of speed and struck the construct for 117 damage with my swords (there was a crit or two in there). The construct freaks out and slammed into me, which brings me from 114 to 10. This is where I realize how screwed the party was since everyone was saying how dead I was, only for me to tell them I was narrowly alive. I quickly found out EVERYONE had less than 50hp, including the tank. I quickly sneak away and the officer then discerns how awful she is by saying she fires directly at me with a spell despite knowing I was there. Thankfully, I took the vigilante ability that gave me evasion and I took nothing, but then my turn rolled around and I fired off my revolvers, which lead to two criticals and a grand total of 224 damage. The DM described that despite being colossal in size, there wasn't much left of him after what I did to him.

We then started to gather notes we found as evidence when we heard someone singing and everyone proceeded to start floating as if gravity no longer effected them while also being paralyzed. One of our characters has an innate detect alignment somehow and discoverd that the one who came in and took the notes, and the body of the construct, was two alignments, one was described as Lawful Evil and the other was discerened as something beyond chaotic evil; something that "shouldn't be". We also discovered that this man, plus the followers that we found out were there with him, were all bards.

After the spell ended, we called in the guy who hired us and reported what we found. The party split for the night, which involved the rogue and pixie deadpool splitting on the pay everyone was supposed to split on, the two of them guilt tripping and killing the nazi, my vigilante taking the construct arms we found and turning them into wrist guns (I'm hoping to ask my DM to turn the blades into extendible wolverine claws), and starting another chain of events that leads to one of my favorite moments in the campaign the last time we played it (think Miami Vice but with magic).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 10, 2018, 05:32:33 pm

The Aasimar cop's player sounds like a dick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: highmax28 on February 10, 2018, 07:56:10 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 10, 2018, 05:32:33 pm

The Aasimar cop's player sounds like a dick.

She is, but I think its because she wanted to be mafia but has gone too far to change it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on February 11, 2018, 11:48:57 am

I guess she's just a crooked cop ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 12, 2018, 04:46:00 pm

I-is there a joke I’m missing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 18, 2018, 01:56:01 pm

I'm considering making a Pathfinder character that uses a blowgun and poison-tipped darts in combat. She'll be picking up plenty of ranks in Craft (Alchemy) so she should be able to extract and prepare her own poisons (rather than pay some fairly exorbitant prices for each dose) and dipping darts in poison runs no risk of exposing the user to the stuff. Multiple doses of poison stack as well, so it'd be a great way for her to contribute to boss battles once she runs out of spells.

The problem is, the rules for poison seem a little iffy. It says that poisons delivered via an injury (say, from a monster attack or a weapon coated in the stuff) have no onset periods and start taking effect almost at once. However, in the great big poison chart provided afterwards it seems as though each individual kind of poison has its own method of delivery and only some of them include injuries. The other methods can take anywhere from several minutes to several hours to begin affecting the target. Does this mean that only poisons delivered via injury can be applied to weapons? If not, if any poison can be applied to a weapon, does the regular method of delivery take precedence over the injury rules or the other way around?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 18, 2018, 02:40:55 pm

That's generally a DM question, if it were my table only poisons delivered by wound would be applicable, owing to the fact that poisons of a different type would probably have specific chemical activation methods.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 18, 2018, 02:43:27 pm

I imagine only poisons applicable through injury can be applied to weapons and have an effect.

Unless you convince someone to lick your sword or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on February 18, 2018, 02:48:57 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on February 18, 2018, 02:43:27 pm

I imagine only poisons applicable through injury can be applied to weapons and have an effect.

Unless you convince someone to lick your sword or something.

Don't forget contact poisons. If it's poisonous when it touches you gently, it's probably poisonous when it gets stabbed into you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 18, 2018, 02:58:34 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on February 18, 2018, 02:43:27 pm

I imagine only poisons applicable through injury can be applied to weapons and have an effect.

Unless you convince someone to lick your sword or something.

I mean, nothing in the rules mention that only certain poisons can be used. Hell, the "Applying Poisons" section only mentions using the stuff on weapons and says nothing about, say, setting traps or poisoning food.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on February 18, 2018, 03:12:04 pm

Maybe poison regarding food and traps are in the food and traps sections? I'd go with nullforceomega and say ask your DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on February 18, 2018, 03:15:51 pm

Dunno if it's in the core rulebook, but I know there's more detailed poison rules in Ultimate Equipment. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/poisons.html)

Contact and injury poisons are the only ones that work on weapons. Ingested ones have to be, well, ingested, and injury poisons have to enter an open wound; it doesn't work the other way around. This is true to real life, I should add. Snake venoms are sometimes used in medicine with no ill effects because they have to go directly into the bloodstream to be deadly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 18, 2018, 03:17:40 pm

Quote from: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/

Poisons have four categories, based on how they reach the target: contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury.

Contact: These poisons are delivered the moment a creature touches the poison with its bare skin. Such poisons can be used as injury poisons. Contact poisons usually have an onset time of 1 minute and a frequency of 1 minute.

Ingested: These poisons are delivered when a creature eats or drinks the poison. Ingested poisons usually have an onset time of 10 minutes and a frequency of 1 minute.

Inhaled: These poisons are delivered the moment a creature enters an area containing such poisons and do not usually have an onset time. For most inhaled poisons, 1 dose fills a volume equal to a 10-foot cube. A creature can attempt to hold its breath while inside the area to avoid inhaling the toxin. A creature holding its breath receives a 50% chance of not having to make a Fortitude save each round. See the rules for holding your breath and suffocation. If a creature is holding its breath and fails the constitution check to continue doing so, rather than suffocating it begins to breathe normally again (and is subject to the effects of the inhaled poison if still in the area).

Injury: These poisons are primarily delivered through the attacks of certain creatures and through weapons coated in the toxin. Injury poisons do not usually have an onset time and have a frequency of 1 round.

So you have four categories of poisons.

Quote

Contact: These poisons are delivered the moment a creature touches the poison with its bare skin. Such poisons can be used as injury poisons. Contact poisons usually have an onset time of 1 minute and a frequency of 1 minute.

Contact and injury poisons can be applied to weapons and will influct poisoning on a successful hit. Inhalation and ingested will not because it doesn't say they can and explicitly does for the other kinds.

Quote

One dose of poison smeared on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target. A poisoned weapon or object retains its poison until the weapon scores a hit or the object is touched (unless the poison is wiped off before a target comes in contact with it).

So applying a contact poison to an object affects the first person to touch it unless it gets wiped off, which I assume covers your traps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 18, 2018, 03:20:48 pm

Aaaaand I just asked my DM. Dangit.

Well. It's an answer at least.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on February 18, 2018, 03:32:01 pm

Maybe you can put spells on the darts???

I suppose theres other things you can do with the darts besides have them be poison tipped. Also, your character is an alchemist, theres loads of stuff you should be able to do besides apply poison to darts, which seems like a very limited application of the alchemy ability.

What specifically did your DM say no to though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 18, 2018, 03:35:23 pm

Basically what Tawa and Giglamesh said: contact and injury potions only.

My character is actually a witch, not an alchemist, but witches can get quite a lot done with potion crafting and the like. I think there's even a hex that can turn a spell/hex into a potion, which could be useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on February 18, 2018, 03:46:33 pm

Not sure how contact wouldn't at least work with darts. You'd have to do an armor penetration (or equivalent) roll, sure in the case of armor and clothes, but still....

I'm sure you can still use the darts as a delivery system for other stuff. Darts that explode/break and spill their contents on impact maybe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 18, 2018, 03:53:02 pm

...It would work for darts. Contact poisons can be used as if they were injury poisons, so they can be applied to and delivered via darts just fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on February 18, 2018, 04:46:24 pm

Quote from: Sirus on February 18, 2018, 03:53:02 pm

...It would work for darts. Contact poisons can be used as if they were injury poisons, so they can be applied to and delivered via darts just fine.

For inhalation poisons, go the ninja method. Mix the active reagent with flour, pour it into a hollowed egg. Suddenly you have a thrown weapon that only needs to hit touch AC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 18, 2018, 04:52:03 pm

On no, I'm having flashbacks to DMSO-ladden squirt gun battles in Shadowrun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on February 19, 2018, 05:16:00 am

Also, whilst I won't derail on a rant over my personal quibbles with the book, Ultimate Wilderness has an interesting section of rules for milking poisons out of animals. For example, a Witch with a greensting scorpion familiar could prep a few doses of poison from it each day, free of charge.

Also, alchemists have a discovery that lets them convert one poison type into another. Turning an injury poison into an inhaled poison, for example, gives stuff a big boost to its utility.

Still, the ultimate drawback is that poison use is expensive for a PC and typically doesn't scale well on returns. Most combat's over in five rounds, and even if the enemy fails all its saving throws, which is unlikely given the low DC of most cheaper poisons, it's usually more economical to buy a necklace of fireballs for 150 gp per d6 of damage on multiple targets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Arx on February 19, 2018, 06:06:08 am

I'm running a 5e campaign for some friends, which I'm doing almost entirely off-the-cuff right now. I have a couple of things for the Bay12 hivemind!

1) What are some neat demon/devil themed encounters you have for a party of three 3rd-level characters played by beginners? I'm reasonable at playing encounters by ear and tweaking them on the fly if things are going terribly wrong, but it feels very unscientific.

2) Is it just me, or does 5e feel really, really polar? I have players kicking out up to 3d10 damage per turn, but only having ~20 hitpoints. Something that's actually going to stay standing for more than a round against them has to have 30-40 hitpoints, but I'd associate that with also dealing a decent bit of damage. If it rolls more than say, 1d8+(2-3) or so, it runs good odds of killing or incapacitating a party member in that time and then it's all downhill.

What cuts? I assume I'm doing something terribly wrong, or maybe I just have a really glass cannony party (wizard, monk, cleric), but it feels really weird to have such an imbalance between damage dished and damage taken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on February 19, 2018, 07:07:19 am

Personally, I don't have background in 5e, but if this was Pathfinder or 3.5e here's what I'd run:

Create a story that gives meaning to their murder spree. Old Man Peabody is a grouchy old miser that everyone in town knows is sitting on a huge fortune and has no kin left to inherit it. Recently, a gang of toughs showed up at his mansion on the hill outside town, and nobody's seen the old man in weeks. Rumor has it they're strong-arming him into changing his will to leave it to their leader. However, the truth is actually that the toughs and their leader are demon/devil cultists, and Old Man Peabody used to be in the cult in his youth before stealing their treasury and using it to buy a new identity. They finally found him and want their stuff back, but he's hidden the valuables and won't tell them where the stash is located. Mix encounters with low level mooks to start, then advance to low level demons/devils with spellcaster support. Finish with a boss divine spellcaster, mooks and a few demons, and mix a few simple traps into the old man's mansion, along with a secret room full of valuables. Rescuing the old man alive rewards them with the treasure he's hidden if they don't find it themselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on February 19, 2018, 08:57:14 pm

Quote from: Arx on February 19, 2018, 06:06:08 am

I'm running a 5e campaign for some friends, which I'm doing almost entirely off-the-cuff right now. I have a couple of things for the Bay12 hivemind!

1) What are some neat demon/devil themed encounters you have for a party of three 3rd-level characters played by beginners? I'm reasonable at playing encounters by ear and tweaking them on the fly if things are going terribly wrong, but it feels very unscientific.

If you haven't heard of it already, I'd recommend Kobold Fight Club (http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder). It lets you search for monsters by several parameters, including type (in this case it would be Fiend. You can also search for chaotic evil or lawful evil depending on if you want to narrow it down to demons or devils) and create random encounters from the filtered creatures (though, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way to create random enounters from multiple search parameters at once, so, for example, if you want to mix together fiends and humanoids, you'll have to add one of the two types manually.)

Quote

2) Is it just me, or does 5e feel really, really polar? I have players kicking out up to 3d10 damage per turn, but only having ~20 hitpoints. Something that's actually going to stay standing for more than a round against them has to have 30-40 hitpoints, but I'd associate that with also dealing a decent bit of damage. If it rolls more than say, 1d8+(2-3) or so, it runs good odds of killing or incapacitating a party member in that time and then it's all downhill.

What cuts? I assume I'm doing something terribly wrong, or maybe I just have a really glass cannony party (wizard, monk, cleric), but it feels really weird to have such an imbalance between damage dished and damage taken.

5e monster building guildlines split up attack and defense CR, then average them out (and, unfortunately, don't keep those numbers around for use), so it's entirely possible for monsters to either be very good at defense or very good at attack.

But, also, I don't know how any character can consistently put out 3d10 damage per turn at 3rd level, so they are likely using some sort of once-per-day or at least once-per-short rest resources to do so. You probably need to put in a few more (weaker) encounters to use those up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on February 20, 2018, 04:59:36 am

Quote from: Kadzar on February 19, 2018, 08:57:14 pm

But, also, I don't know how any character can consistently put out 3d10 damage per turn at 3rd level, so they are likely using some sort of once-per-day or at least once-per-short rest resources to do so. You probably need to put in a few more (weaker) encounters to use those up.

This, very much this. My Pathfinder players are 15th level right now, and they have the resources and abilities to teleport in, dump their biggest daily abilities in one encounter, then teleport out again.

To counter this tactic, I've taken to running single encounters but staggering the addition of enemies onto the field, meaning they get their overall five at-level CR encounters in one big encounter instead. Essentially, wherever the group appears, the enemies in that room fight, and every few rounds more show up from other rooms as the alarm gets raised. This doesn't overwhelm the group with a massive amount of actions, but still keeps the fight challenging and forces them to consider tactics other than just using their best stuff at the start.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 20, 2018, 08:14:22 am

I'm planning an semi-unusual DnD campaign and I'd appreciate some thoughts on it. Basically, I want to replicate the sort of very traditional fantasy plot of ordinary commoners who go on to save the world and become legendary heroes, down to the idyllic hometown, mysterious visitor, secret heritages and all the other juicy classic tropes of the genre. Most DnD characters start as adventurers already, even if they're new ones, but I want them to be very much beginners and amateurs, so to speak: the cleric is just a novice in the local temple, the fighter just a particularly brawny youth, the warlock the local hag's daughter, the wizard a hedge mage with barely any training, etc. They might have big backstories, but mainly about their parents, origins, maybe destinies waiting for them - maybe they're really a king's bastard daughter, or that the blood of an ancient dragon runs in their veins, or that they're fated to wield a mythical sword and save the world, that kind of stuff. The point is that they start out inexperienced, and ideally but not necessarily young.

I've introduced the group to the idea and they seemed to like it, but I'm concerned about any potential pitfalls and flaws. How to create that sort of classic, epic fantasy feel? How to encourage them into creating and playing fitting characters? What kind of problems is this kind of plot likely to have? Any other thoughts or concerns? One thing I'd probably change is Backgrounds: they represent more life experience than I'd like and maybe give too much shit too. I thought a nice way to keep them in is have them be the backgrounds of the characters' parents or so: maybe their papa was a soldier and left them the stuff the Soldier background gives, etc. I might have to disallow some entirely, though.

I'd want to run this semi-freeform: letting the players go wherever they want and make their own path in the world, but keeping a sort of grand plot/time limit/pressing danger in the background to encourage them to pursue the big events. I don't want them to feel constantly pressured by it, though - I want them to be aware of it, not to feel railroaded onto one certain path because of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 20, 2018, 08:28:57 am

If you want players to really be invested in your hometown and plot, why not use another game to generate the basic ideas behind it? My own favorite method is a game like The Quiet Year, for example, just a GM-less exercise in everybody taking turns to draw cool shit on a local map and coming up with fun complications along the way. For the Quiet Year in particular you'll get a similar effect to what you'd actually have when someone comes from a small town and has lived there all their life - an informational island that you know most everything about surrounded by a huge blank world that you need to set out into (as a result of the arrival of the Frost Shepherds, for example).

You could also use something else like Fiasco (the catch is that you're gonna doom the world with your incompetence!) or something else entirely, the point is to have a process where the players generate a lot of the starting situation for you, from which it logically follows that they understand it very well and are invested in it on account of it being their own creation.

Also, don't go out of your way to be tropey. Classic stuff that holds up tends to do so specifically because it doesn't lean on its tropes, usually because it was the one that codified the tropes in question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on February 20, 2018, 09:24:23 am

It will depend a lot on your players too, if they're willing to invest into the story and buy into the world. I really like Harry Baldman's suggestion of the players filling in the world map with interesting stuff they know about the local area, since it's great adventure fuel for the starting campaign, but planning your game out in advance instead of being completely freeform will serve you well in the long run.

First, make sure the characters have motivation to get shit done. Greed is one way, but a better one is using NPC allies or authorities that push the players in a certain direction. For example, one of my future campaign ideas I want to run is a fantasy world SWAT team made of the PCs who answer to a grouchy old captain. It gives the players opportunity to act inside a single city for the entire campaign, get downtime between adventures, but also have them forced to complete quests inside of a specific time limit. Giving your own players a person to whom they're accountable, whether it be the local guard captain, the town mayor, or even the king of the country, pushes them towards action. Without the impetus of this motivation, you'll likely find your players will simply abandon their current quest when it gets too difficult.

Second, plan the broad strokes of your story in advance. What is the early game, mid-game, and endgame? Early game might be discovering a conspiracy of demon cultists within town, mid-game might be toppling their high priest, endgame might be to drive back the demon horde and seal the portal to the abyss. Early game might be defending the town from a siege of undead, mid-game might be toppling their lich leader, endgame might be destroying the unholy artifact that threatens to flood the world with undead.

Third, prep multiple outcomes beforehand for your players to achieve but be prepared to lead them towards similar results. Tracking down the cultists might be done via capturing and interrogating one, or joining the cult in disguise, or tracing clues that lead back to their base. Toppling the demon cult high priest might be a straight up fight through their fortress, or might be done via influencing the cult from within, or might be through a secret mission to sneak in and assassinate the target. The gate to the abyss might require a guardian creature be slain to prevent its life force fueling the portal, or might be done via tricking the cult into destroying their own portal, or might require a magical mcguffin that needs to be captured and brought to the portal to seal it forevermore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 20, 2018, 09:32:10 am

Oh, and make sure to give the player characters something - likely a piece of special knowledge (the gods aren't real! the continent is actually the mother of all dragons! history is a figment born of the mind of a crippled demiurge and is mostly false!) or a particular power (opening portals to other planes, the compliance of ghosts, the ability to awaken artifacts of a long-dead civilization, a path to becoming immortal beings of fire and destruction) - to make them feel like they're really in on something rather than a bunch of random assholes tied together by a prophecy. Give your heroic destinies actionable and amazing perks that set your player characters apart from everyone else.

EDIT: In fact, ideally you'd want your heroes to be the sort of people who commit legitimately unbelievable deeds, in the sense that their achievements fly in the face of common sense when recounted matter-of-factly - there's an amazing amount of catharsis to be gained as a player when you can legitimately claim that you did something stupendous and never before seen in a setting. Don't have your heroes preserve the status quo, have them shatter it in a magnificent and supernatural fashion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 20, 2018, 03:09:17 pm

This is all Good Good Stuff. I hadn’t thought about letting the players add to the world. I have a fairly defined world I want to use, but it’s got plenty of space for that. I’m just not sure if my players would be up for it - worldbuilding is maybe not their forte. I’d definitely talk out the basic idea of their heroic destinies (if any) beforehand though, so they get something they’ll really be into. Special powers and making them ’actionable’ is something I vaguely thought about, definitely a good good idea.

As my plans are, the party would be handed their quest (to stop an evil god from ascending into the source of all life itself, without going into detail) by a monk who gets killed while staying the night in their village (mysterious stranger!).

Said monk doesn’t actually die, though, thanks to some monk bullshit. His decapitated head will insist on them taking him to the sanctuary of his order so he can warn them about the evil plot. As this likely won’t be enough to motivate the non-heroic types, he’ll claim the fiend that murdered him will realize he’s not dead in time and return to kill all of them, too, since they know about the plot now. Everyone they care about too, if a more emotional angle is needed. They will only be safe in the sanctuary. Whether this is a lie or not depends on whatever proves narratively most satisfying.

There’s three things I want to do with this. First, he can gently prod the players into the plot’s direction if they get too sidetracked. Second, he can give advice if they get stuck. Third, comic relief - he’s a cranky old bastard due to the being murdered thing. By having him just be, well, a head, there’s no fear of him upstaging the players or becoming a crutch, but I can still give some in-world direction with him.

He’ll be used as a projectile the moment they enter combat, but that’s only a bonus. Also bound to be fun: explaining why they’re carrying around a decapitated head.

By semi-freeform I don’t mean that I wouldn’t plan the stuff, more that I’d prepare areas with possibilities and planned adventures they might or might not choose to undertake. The overarching goal of the first ’book’ would be to get to the sanctuary, seeing and discovering the world in their journey there. From there: your basic MacGuffin hunt, probably, except the MacGuffins are people.

Each book would have its own overarching goal and theme, and each would escalate or change things - as HB said, I want them to smash the status quo, if not always in an epic or grand way. I want to invest in some long-term things here; the fiend assassin will be something terrifying to escape in the early game, until they are finally strong enough to make a stand and defeat them in the mother of all cathartic moments, for example.

Fantasy SWAT sounds like a fantastic idea for a campaign, by the way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 20, 2018, 03:45:56 pm

I believe you are referring to tactical breach wizards, sir.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 20, 2018, 04:10:40 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on February 20, 2018, 03:09:17 pm

Fantasy SWAT sounds like a fantastic idea for a campaign, by the way.

Yeah (https://www.pentadact.com/2018-02-02-pitch-tactical-breach-wizards/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 20, 2018, 06:06:53 pm

Most hardcore dungeon crawling is basically SWAT room cleaning anyways

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 20, 2018, 06:26:05 pm

While you're not wrong, I wouldn't mind doing that sort of room-to-room breach and clear as my character's actual job description. Would be an interesting way to run a campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on February 21, 2018, 12:38:15 am

Any clue what is up with the 1 punch kill http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=2522 ? There's probably some sort of DnD joke there involving monks. Context is that Tuvi (red headed dwarf) is a level 3 monk and the rest of the main cast are level 7 or 8.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Criptfeind on February 21, 2018, 08:07:55 am

Monks do get a one punch kill ability at high (15) levels (called Quivering Palm), maybe it's a reference to that? Although I don't know why a level 3 would have access to it. Monks are otherwise traditionally not associated with one strong attack, but rather multiple weaker attacks, although there is an option in some splat book that I can't recall off the top of my head that replaces monks many weaker attacks with a single strong attack, which could also be what the comic is referencing, although that seems less likely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on February 21, 2018, 01:35:37 pm

Is it possible the monster's existence is based on its own willpower, and thus such a surprising event(an enemy just bopping it a bit) caused it to explode as it forgot to keep existing?
Otherwise I have no idea.


Suggestion for Digital Hellhound. You want the players to smash the status quo?
Have them create their own artifacts(eventually, low-level characters still shouldn't get to do this.), instead of finding ones made by others.
You can still have a quest to find the materials, and the long-lost knowledge how to make them in the first place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on February 21, 2018, 01:47:12 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 21, 2018, 01:35:37 pm

Suggestion for Digital Hellhound. You want the players to smash the status quo?
Have them create their own artifacts(eventually, low-level characters still shouldn't get to do this.), instead of finding ones made by others.
You can still have a quest to find the materials, and the long-lost knowledge how to make them in the first place.

Our still-running 3.5 game (incidentally the source of a fair chunk of the advice I'm giving here as an extremely appreciative player) does a bit of this, usually through some variant of butchering an enemy we killed and using their body parts for magic item components. So that Belt of Fire Giant Strength? Made from one whole fire giant hide, layered and magically compressed. That permanent portal? Catalyzed by salamander brains for elemental affinity and phase spider glands for travel magic. That wineskin that refills every morning with whatever mundane liquid you last kept in it? Enchanted by a powerful spirit of the land after being harvested from a particularly well-endowed badger. That ur-priest "holy symbol"? Jury-rigged and modified soul stealing crystal empowered across several separate iterations.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on February 21, 2018, 01:52:16 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 21, 2018, 01:35:37 pm

Is it possible the monster's existence is based on its own willpower, and thus such a surprising event(an enemy just bopping it a bit) caused it to explode as it forgot to keep existing?
Otherwise I have no idea.

It'll probably get explained in a comic or two. It is running a bit of a joke based on the sillyness of monk 'nonsense' with their abilities and possibly Tuvi being somewhat more competent than they think she is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on February 22, 2018, 01:16:23 pm

Quote from: smjjames on February 21, 2018, 12:38:15 am

Any clue what is up with the 1 punch kill http://willsaveworldforgold.com/?p=2522 ? There's probably some sort of DnD joke there involving monks. Context is that Tuvi (red headed dwarf) is a level 3 monk and the rest of the main cast are level 7 or 8.

My guess is it's a reference to One Punch Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Punch_Man), for the fact that she killed it in one punch and then turned bald.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on February 22, 2018, 04:08:12 pm

Dwarves can mate with humans, right? If so, why aren't there half-dwarves in the core books?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Culise on February 22, 2018, 04:19:28 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 22, 2018, 04:08:12 pm

Dwarves can mate with humans, right? If so, why aren't there half-dwarves in the core books?

Popularity and tradition.  Half-dwarves of various sorts, including muls and dwelves, have never been as popular and thus ended up being relegated to the realm of splat.  Of course, since half-elves have also been around since OD&D and thus had access to the core books that half-dwarves haven't attained, some of that lack of popularity is also due to obscurity: how many non-Dark Sun players have heard of muls?  Ultimately, it probably stems from Tolkien's influence at the start; humans and elves bred true (Elrond and Elros, for two), but humans/elves and dwarves did not. 

I suppose it's still better than dragons, which will do the horizontal tango with anything that moves if 3.5e templates are any indicator.  Half-dragon half-gelatinous cube, anyone?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 22, 2018, 04:28:28 pm

Dragons are horny.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on February 22, 2018, 04:35:37 pm

Dragons can mate with a gelatinous cube, that doesn't mean they will.
Of course, not really at all, assuming the cubes are asexual.

And to note, that is because dragons are talented shape shifters and thus can just shapeshift into whatever form they need to mate. Again, can, not will.

Saying that dragons are horny, because they can mate with anything is like saying humans can kill themselves, therefore they are all suicidal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 22, 2018, 05:27:50 pm

They are though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on February 22, 2018, 07:34:09 pm

In canon?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on February 22, 2018, 07:45:45 pm

What canon? DnD doesn't have one setting attached. It seems obvious to me that there wouldn't be so much data on exactly what dragons can mate with if they weren't doing it all the time, though, because dragons are pretty rare creatures. If it was just because they can shapeshift, the line would be "dragons can probably technically mate with almost anything", but rather the fact is "it's proven that dragons can mate with almost anything, your player character can be part dragon if you like".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on February 23, 2018, 08:13:52 am

I've kind of stopped doing RPG stuff at the moment but this piquied my interest.

Monte Cook is going to demo Invisible Sun. (https://www.reddit.com/r/cyphersystem/comments/7zlr4m/see_monte_cook_gm_the_surreal_fantasy_invisible/) I'm unable to find the image dump I perused so many months ago but the art work is so weird and I love it. Spidercatipede (oh gods, the hands...) (http://invisiblesunrpg.com/) is just the tip of the iceberg.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on February 23, 2018, 06:13:27 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 19, 2018, 05:16:00 am

Also, whilst I won't derail on a rant over my personal quibbles with the book, Ultimate Wilderness has an interesting section of rules for milking poisons out of animals. For example, a Witch with a greensting scorpion familiar could prep a few doses of poison from it each day, free of charge.

This is somewhat late, but funnily enough I actually thought about this independently, completely by accident.

I chose a compsognathus for my familiar, mostly because I wanted the extra Initiative and thought having a tiny dinosaur as a(n intelligent) pet would be neat. Turns out that Pathfinder compys (compies?) have a venomous bite, and since familiars are intelligent and (presumably) cooperative you can milk them without needing a bunch of ranks in Handle Animal.

The party my witch is in also has an alchemist. Shenanigans are planned.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on March 04, 2018, 06:13:40 pm

New player is up-to-speed and actively engaged, it's so very nice having another highly experienced player at the table, I can pull out some of the stops and really get into the game and story elements.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: BlackFlyme on March 06, 2018, 06:35:29 pm

Apparently Pathfinder 2e (http://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest) is in the works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on March 06, 2018, 07:28:32 pm

Huh. Wonder what that will be like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on March 06, 2018, 10:19:15 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on March 06, 2018, 07:28:32 pm

Huh. Wonder what that will be like.

Not too different from what you currently know (http://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest/faq#v5748eaic9wej) (this and the following questions, especially the immediately following one), assuming you're a Pathfinder user.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on March 07, 2018, 07:36:33 am

It sounds like they're heavily influenced by 5th ed dnd?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 07, 2018, 10:01:52 am

Heh, imagine that :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on March 07, 2018, 12:19:24 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 07, 2018, 07:36:33 am

It sounds like they're heavily influenced by 5th ed dnd?

so dnd 5.5?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Gentlefish on March 07, 2018, 01:44:42 pm

That might be actually excellent for my group tbh, they're all more RP-centric than combat oriented so anything to make combat run more smoothly would be great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 07, 2018, 04:06:41 pm

Quote from: deathpunch578 on March 07, 2018, 12:19:24 pm

so dnd 5.5?

[witty reply that insults dnd]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 07, 2018, 04:36:04 pm

Well, DND is very crunch and mechanics heavy, and not really designed for social roleplay.
DND 5 does seem better than 3.5 in that regard, though.  Assuming your group is tied to DND, which is understandable.  We've really only done 3.5, New World of Darkness, and a few one-session experiments.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on March 07, 2018, 04:45:48 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 07, 2018, 04:36:04 pm

Well, DND is very crunch and mechanics heavy, and not really designed for social roleplay.
DND 5 does seem better than 3.5 in that regard, though.  Assuming your group is tied to DND, which is understandable.  We've really only done 3.5, New World of Darkness, and a few one-session experiments.

I get that, just making a dumb joke

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 07, 2018, 05:54:33 pm

Eagerly awaiting release of the free playtest PDFs so me and my group can give it a run. We're already planning how to adjust our current schedule to fit in the new version.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Gentlefish on March 07, 2018, 07:42:11 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 07, 2018, 04:36:04 pm

Well, DND is very crunch and mechanics heavy, and not really designed for social roleplay.
DND 5 does seem better than 3.5 in that regard, though.  Assuming your group is tied to DND, which is understandable.  We've really only done 3.5, New World of Darkness, and a few one-session experiments.

This is very true. I was considering moving to fate or something so there wouldn't be as much crunch (as more streamlined PF 1.0 was, it was still pretty crunchy for newbies)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on March 09, 2018, 12:21:03 am

So, as I've mentioned a few times before, I'm working on a 30 Years' War inspired Pathfinder setting. To go along with this, I've redone the armor table from scratch, using a homebrew piecemeal armor system that's supposed to encourage the players to pick and choose rather than just go for a full set. I've tried to balance it, but seeing as I'm not exactly a master homebrewer, I'd like to run the table and rules I've written thus far past you guys.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/XpzSjyy.png)
All characters have three slots – head, torso, and legs. One piece of armor can be worn in each slot. You can mix heavy, medium, and light armor as you please--they're intended as guidelines.

Armor class (light/medium/heavy) is determined by how heavy your character’s armor is.
   - If the weight of your character’s armor is less than or equal to 20 pounds, they are wearing light armor.
   - If the weight of your character’s armor exceeds 20 pounds, they are wearing medium armor. They are slowed down to 20 ft. per round.
   - If the weight of your character’s armor exceeds 30 pounds, they are wearing heavy armor. They are slowed down to 20 ft. per round and run at 3 times their maximum speed, rather than 4.

Add up all the armor check penalties to get your total penalty. Fractional armor check penalties only apply once they add up to a whole number (so, for example, a buff coat and morion will add up to a total -1.5, but only -1 is applied.)

The armor is kind of a mix of things from the early modern period; because the base armor table covers a reasonably wide variety of historical armor, I figured that for variety anything that was in use roughly between the birth of William Shakespeare (1564) and the end of the Thirty Years' War (1648) was fair game. I still feel like it could use some more variety, though, so I'm very much open to suggestions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 09, 2018, 02:46:01 am

The two light armor helms seem rather pricey, especially since the stats are a lot closer to the gambeson and buff coat than the comparable priced medium stuff. Also, the costs for the morion  and secrete seem flipped.

If I were one of your players, I’d probably skip the light armors entirely and get the burg-net and half cuirass. Course that’s before making any class considerations.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on March 09, 2018, 02:59:28 am

What about combining spell failure?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 09, 2018, 04:40:01 am

I can see your basic formula is +1 AC per 5 lbs, which mostly works for the core rulebook's normal 'best' sets (chain shirt +4 AC 20 lbs, breastplate +6 AC 30 lbs, full plate +9 AC 50 lbs).

Thus, I'd give light armors +1 AC chausses for legs at 5 lbs, bump tassets to 10 lbs for +2, and full tassets to 15 lbs for +3. Keep your helms at +1 per 5 lbs too except for the secrete. For armors, stick to the same for light, but subtract 3 lbs off each medium from the total, and 5 lbs off heavy from the total. Drop the AC for medium and heavy torso by 1 each to max out at +3 and +4 respectively, and remove one of the light torso pieces, maxing at +2. Make head and legs more expensive than torso too.

So a Dex based character wanting 'best' medium armor could wear an armet and full tassets for +6 AC at 30 lbs with no cap on their Dex, or light for tassets and morion for +4 AC at 20 lbs. Alternatively, wearing a +3 medium cuirass and secrete gets +4 AC for 15 lbs, or +5 AC at 20 lbs with chausses, but means you deal with a +3 max Dex bonus on armor. A max AC character could wear a +4 heavy cuirass torso, a +3 armet head, and a +3 full tassets legs for 45 lbs total. On the other hand, you could take a +4 heavy cuirass and add just one of the other two options to end up with medium armor instead, but you're dealing with a lower max Dex bonus as a trade-off for lighter weight on the torso.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on March 09, 2018, 08:09:45 am

Also lol secrete

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 09, 2018, 09:45:47 am

That'd be this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrete_(helmet)

Tawa, if you're not changing the price of that one, maybe give it the ability to be worn under a hat or hood. Might not justify the price, but it'd certainly make it more appealing to those that use light armor and want to wear hoods or hats or whatever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 09, 2018, 10:18:26 am

An armet weighs 15lbs? What is it made from, lead?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 09, 2018, 10:31:16 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on March 09, 2018, 10:18:26 am

An armet weighs 15lbs? What is it made from, lead?

Got curious on that and googled it (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=8KaiWvfUA6Pe0gLRl5bABg&q=how+much+does+an+armet+weigh&oq=how+much+does+an+armet+weigh&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i21k1.2253.9429.0.10888.36.26.4.6.6.0.186.2352.20j5.25.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.35.2396...0j0i131k1j0i22i30k1j0i13k1j33i160k1j0i13i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0.RsLAFiHARFk). Turns out that more everyday or combat ones were around half that, more like between 6 and 9 pounds, 15 is much closer to ones meant for jousting.

I guess it depends on how much tawa is going for historical accuracy vs balanced gameplay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on March 09, 2018, 01:39:54 pm

Quote from: smjjames on March 09, 2018, 09:45:47 am

That'd be this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrete_(helmet)

Tawa, if you're not changing the price of that one, maybe give it the ability to be worn under a hat or hood. Might not justify the price, but it'd certainly make it more appealing to those that use light armor and want to wear hoods or hats or whatever.

I wrote up a big description for it, actually, with perception check DCs and everything! That helmet warmed my heart. It's the exact kind of weird pseudo-experimental weaponry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_sword#/media/File:Wheel-lock_daggers.JPG) I love from the 1600s.

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on March 09, 2018, 10:18:26 am

An armet weighs 15lbs? What is it made from, lead?

Will cut down on the weight. I figured that going heavy on the weight would be alright because the base game tends to overestimate the full weight of a suit of armor, but that is pretty weighty for an armet.

Quote from: smjjames on March 09, 2018, 02:46:01 am

The two light armor helms seem rather pricey, especially since the stats are a lot closer to the gambeson and buff coat than the comparable priced medium stuff. Also, the costs for the morion  and secrete seem flipped.

If I were one of your players, I’d probably skip the light armors entirely and get the burg-net and half cuirass. Course that’s before making any class considerations.

Morion and secrete weights are intentional, but thanks for pointing out the issue there. I tried to account for various combinations, but I had a habit of only comparing to the "best" armor in each category (e.g. chain shirt). The fact that I adapted it from a confusing system where your armor type was dependent on how many pieces of each type you were wearing.

Quote from: Jimmy on March 09, 2018, 04:40:01 am

-snip-

I read this, understand what you're saying, and like your ideas, but I couldn't think of a good way to respond outside of this meta-response (and I didn't want to make it look like I skipped your post) :v

---

I think that I'll trim it down. I like the mix-and-match style of helmets, but I feel like the leg armor boils down to "tassets" or "heavier tassets" and seems silly when you consider that tassets are supposed to hang off of a breastplate (meaning that they don't really make sense in the context of pairing them with light armor.) Will post new version soon.

E: Screw it, I'm scrapping it. I can't seem to conjure up anything that really satisfies me, so I'll just stick with re-skinning the base armor table. Thanks for the help, though, everyone!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Gentlefish on March 09, 2018, 01:43:02 pm

Chain leggings are a thing yeah? Though I guess considering the time period they might not have been common. What about greaves that are tied padded armor beneath?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 09, 2018, 07:58:15 pm

Yes, chain leggings are a thing. That's why I suggested chausses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chausses) as a light leg armor option. They were fairly common through the European middle ages.

Thanks for the work Tawa! I actually really like your ideas for piecemeal armor. Tell me, is your campaign going to include magic in your pseudo-30 Years' War setting? I'm wondering about the implications of such on a historical context.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on March 10, 2018, 12:57:56 am

I reworked the piecemeal armor ideas into an armor table reskin :\ I left the secrete in, though (and you can still wear it with light armor,) and listed some helmet ideas after the new table. I like the idea, though--as a big Mount & Blade fan, the idea of mixing and matching armor really tickles my fancy--so I might revisit it sometime, probably when I'm working in a broader context, like a traditional fantasy setting with a mess of armor ideas from 600+ years of history rather than a less-than-100-years, western-half-of-a-single-continent constraint.

Anywho. There's magic, but it's rather heavily controlled. The basic ideas:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

- It's explained by a quantum theory-style set of laws called "arcane physics"; wizards have determined that magic works on different rules than regular stuff like walking around and lifting things, but that it still works on rules that are internally consistent. Nobody's really sure how divine magic works, though; since people from all corners of the earth seem capable of it, the one thing that's generally agreed upon is that whatever deity really exists doesn't really care whether or not the diviner gets their name right.

- Back in the early days of the setting, the polytheist "barbarians" of the north practiced arcane sorcery under their shamans, but that ground to a halt when they converted to the dualistic southern religion inspired by Gnosticism (the many gods Pathfinder expects have been replaced with "saints" that serve the same function--thanks for the idea, Darklands!) The not!Gnostic clergy all but banned arcane magic and kept a close eye on divine magic, making sure that anybody stronger than the average first-level adept was reined in by the church.

- One of the big breaks in interpretation of scripture that the Not Protestants have is that the Not Demiurge, who is charged with creating magic as part of their act of creating the natural world, is ignorant of the suffering they wrought, rather than being actively malevolent. As a result, the Not Protestants think that magic is fine and dandy, which was one of the reasons early religious wars tended to end in favor of the Not Protestants, who were happy to employ combat wizards.

- After a Peace of Augsburg stand-in, arcane magic became legal under church law (the Not Catholics changed their beliefs in magic--where it was once thought to be pure evil, they instead deemed it to be another part of the natural world,) but is heavily controlled by governments. In most countries, wizards have to be licensed and a dedicated branch of the government seeks out sorcerers before they hurt anybody. It's now practiced (in small numbers, of course) in universities and such as a science of the natural world. However, using magic on people without their consent is generally considered a crime; depending on where you are and what spell you used, somewhere between assault and high treason.

- And, of course, there's still rare magic stuff sitting about. Since I intend to run it with P6 rules (since it's going to be a people-based campaign, rather than a monster-based one, I prefer to keep things relatively low-key,) magical artifacts are really rare compared to regular Pathfinder games where the game expects you to be dripping with magic by level 10. But that doesn't mean there aren't holy swords and ancient pagan artifacts and the like strewn about; really, I think that magical items being rare makes them cooler and more precious by default.

As a side note, I think the setting is pretty close to being finished:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

- I have 1 part of the setting--Not The Holy Roman Empire--fleshed out in great detail, with eight powerful vassals and one particular type of lord thoroughly elaborated on alongside a general history of the empire.

- Seven countries ("What If Harold Godwinson Didn't Take An Arrow To The Eye", "France Meets Catalonia", "Wizard Navarre", "In Which Venice and Syria Have A One Night Stand", "Definitely Not The Ottoman Empire", "Polish-Lithuanian-Finnish Commonwealth", and "Sweden X Ireland OTP" complete with Christina Augusta meets Gustavus Adolphus,) are described in less-but-still considerable detail, with basic histories, political systems, and defining features outlined.

- A few others (best described as Not Ming China, Egypthiopia, and Iroquois-Confederacy-But-Every-Time-They-Add-A-Tribe-An-Inuit Tribe-Joins-Too) are roughly described, mainly to add flavor and to explain aspects of the lore that are more relevant (e.g. the main religion originated in Egypthiopia, the Swedish-Irish established trade with ICBETTAATAITJT.)

- Everyday life is more or less complete. I describe the way average people live and demographics, put down information on trade and currency (gp and sp and such are still in place, though I changed "copper pieces" to "brass pieces" partly for flavor reasons and partly because copper is, to my understanding, relatively rare as a pure metal for coinage,) describe the workings of armies and the types of weapons used in war, and elaborated in detail on the kinds of clothes people wear because like half the reason I made this setting is because 17th century fashion is really (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/GeorgeVilliers.jpg) fricking (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Cavalier_soldier_Hals-1624x.jpg) cool (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Drottning_Kristina_av_Sverige.jpg).

- The three main religions (Not Catholicism, Not Protestantism, Not Islam) are described in considerable detail, with origins, spread, beliefs, symbols, and organizations all described. Not Christianity has a set of saints, two deities, and a death personification to choose from; Not Islam has the two gods, the death personification, and a bunch of one-note angels to pick from (Not Muslim clerics are allowed to pick two gods to devote themselves to, one deity and one angel, meaning that they have greater flexibility in some ways than Not Christians, but some combinations of domain are impossible.)

- Magic is described in great detail; how it works, the history of its study, all that good stuff in the first spoiler up there but more articulate. I also describe magical creatures in relatively brief terms; the more frightening ones have retreated into secluded places and long-lost ruins, following the advance of humanity and significant technological growth, but low-key ones like ghosts or vampires are out and about like they'd be in more traditional settings.

- I've got the basic outline of a first adventure's plot written out (a first for me; last time, my modus operandi was something like "Vikings are cool. Let's do that,") along with a first encounter explicitly designed. I have a rough idea of how the game should progress past the first "adventure", but I want to leave it kind of open for now since I'll have plenty of time to elaborate later and how the players handle the first adventure will radically alter the setup of the rest of the game (depending on who they end up working for, how well they do, who they side with afterward, stuff like that.)

- M A P S. I've got two big fancy maps of the empire and the countries nearest it. One is a political map showing the boundaries of the empire and the aforementioned eight most powerful territories in it. The other is a geographic map I hacked together using Victoria 2's terrain map textures. Thanks, Victoria 2!

Does it sound like anything important is missing there? I want to be thorough and not give a boring skin-deep description of the world I've created like I have in the past.

In case I haven't gushed enough about the impeccable style of the first half of the 17th century, every (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Frans_Luycx_-_Frederick_William%2C_Elector_of_Brandenburg%2C_at_three-quarter-length.jpg/800px-Frans_Luycx_-_Frederick_William%2C_Elector_of_Brandenburg%2C_at_three-quarter-length.jpg) single (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Isabella_Rubens.jpg/436px-Isabella_Rubens.jpg) thing (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Peter_Paul_Rubens_-_Portrait_of_Anne_of_Austria_-_WGA20365.jpg/495px-Peter_Paul_Rubens_-_Portrait_of_Anne_of_Austria_-_WGA20365.jpg) about (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Kaiser_Ferdinand_II._1614.jpg) early (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Attributed_to_Jan_Boeckhorst_-_Portrait_of_Helena_Fourment_-_WGA20384.jpg) 17th (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Charles_I_by_Daniel_Mytens.jpg) century (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Gustav_of_Wasaborg_%281616%29_c_1652_by_S%C3%A9bastien_Bourdon.jpg) clothes (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Jan_Miense_Molenaer_006_detail.jpg) was (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Joachim_von_Sandrart_-_November.jpg) absolutely (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/HenriettaMariavonFrankreich.jpg) dank (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/St_george_civic_guard_hals.jpg) as (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Dirck_hals_joyful_detail.jpg) hell (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Gustav_II_Adolf_portr%C3%A4tterad_av_Jakob_Elbfas_ca_1630.jpg). The second half gets (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/S%C3%A9bastien_Bourdons-Karl_X_Gustav.jpg) in (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Rembrandt_Harmensz._van_Rijn_097.jpg) on it (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Barbara_Palmer_%28n%C3%A9e_Villiers%29%2C_Duchess_of_Cleveland_by_John_Michael_Wright.jpg) too, but this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIII_of_France) and his son (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France) ruined it when they made this nonsense (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Ex-voto_a_sainte-genevieve_-Detail-Largilliere.jpg) cool :(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 10, 2018, 02:37:10 am

Damn, Gustavus Adolphus? Is this set before or after his death? Because if the group is at the The Battle of Lützen and manages to prevent his death, the Thirty Years' War is headed in a hell of a different direction. The dude was a genius of warfare, able to adapt to the changing technology of the day and leverage it into decisive victories. If he lived past his 40th year, Sweden's gonna be a hell of a contender on the world stage afterwards.

Ahem, excuse my fanboyism, but I'm a huge fan of the 1632 series by Eric Flint. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in a reinterpretation of the Thirty Years' War.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 10, 2018, 03:01:21 am

What about the colonies in the Americas? The Spanish colonies in the carribean would already be up to a century old and if you start right when the Thirty Years wars start, the colonies of other countries would already be at least a decade old.

Obviously the who colonized what would be different, but it’s something to consider in case your players inexplictedly decide to run off to the Americas. If they time it right, they might be able to join the pilgrims in 1620.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on March 10, 2018, 03:18:20 am

(I think you guys get this, but just so we're 100% clear, this is a completely made up fantasy world. The people in it are "based on" or "inspired by" the real world in the same way the Earth Kingdom in Avatar is "based on" China, or that Diesel (1997) is "based on" Stardust Crusaders; that is, they're superficially very similar to the point of being rip-offs, but are otherwise entirely divorced from one another. This is a love letter to the trappings of a period, not some weird alt-history work.)

The working plan is to have the players be critical to the sparking of and subsequently opening stages of a massive, pan-continental war. I intend for something a bit more cinematic and "scheme-y" than some guys dying and their replacements getting chucked out a window, however.

I am not a huge fan of colonialism, as you might imagine, and I also enjoy the idea of advanced Native American nations free from the yoke of European colonizers. As such, the especially wide ocean and better luck with resources on the Not America side of the sea has made colonization unfeasible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 10, 2018, 08:38:06 am

I have a huge soft spot for Weird/Magic 30 Years War settings, so I kinda love it (and have done something in that vein myself (https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/in-the-service-of-sorcerer-kings-a-mercenary-company-quest.39021/)). You get your inklings of the modern era (newspapers! propaganda! global trade! science! weird laws and philosophies!) without losing all that old world charm (religious fanaticism! dynastic struggles! superstition! weird laws and philosophies!), and then you get to add weird stuff like magic or time traveling Americans or alternate worlds. What's not to love?

I just hope your players are into it - it's not the most popular time period or setting out there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on March 10, 2018, 09:33:38 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 10, 2018, 02:37:10 am

The dude was a genius of warfare,

/me gets lost in in the fog and runs towards the enemy army thinking it's his own soldiers

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 11, 2018, 04:02:51 am

Fog of war is a bitch.

I'm trying to come up with a catchy acronym for my "Magic S.W.A.T. Team" campaign idea, but so far I'm drawing a blank. Something like C.O.P.S. or G.U.A.R.D. or something. Need to give it some more thought. I'm planning on using a 'payday' system of reward whereby the players get their wealth by level in installments after successful missions rather than just by looting corpses. I'm also thinking of adding a system that lets them be 'on the take' from various organizations, where they can add additional wealth to their pay, from 1% up, but they have to roll percentile each payday and risk getting that pay reduced by the amount they're getting on the side instead if they're busted.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on March 11, 2018, 06:23:53 am

A.E.G.I.S: Arcane Eerie Guard InsatsStyrk

W.A.R.D: Weaponized Arcane Reinforcement Division

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 11, 2018, 06:36:24 am

W.I.Z.C.O.P.S
Wizardly Intervention against Zealous Crypt, Oubliette & Prison Sorties

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 11, 2018, 07:30:02 am

W.A.T.C.H: Wizard Active Tactical Crisis Host.

S.H.I.E.L.D: Sorcerous High-Impact Escalation Law Directorate.

L.A.W: Legal Assault Wizards.

J.U.S.T.I.C.E: Joint Unnatural Service: Tactical Initiative for Cataclysmic Exigencies.

S.P.E.L.L: Special Police Extranatural Legion (Light).

This is fun!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 11, 2018, 07:54:45 am

C.R.A.S.H. - Community Resources Against Supernatural Hoodlums

Comes with a seedy history of corruption and extralegal activity already bundled in!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 11, 2018, 09:44:54 am

Maybe let your players come up with one? Unless they expect you to make the name.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on March 11, 2018, 10:01:35 am

T. O. M. E. - Tactical Operations - Magical Enforcement

IRS - Infernal Repulsion Squad

Quote from: scriver on March 11, 2018, 06:23:53 am

A.E.G.I.S: Arcane Eerie Guard InsatsStyrk

W.A.R.D: Weaponized Arcane Reinforcement Division

W.A.R.D. is probably the best so far.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 11, 2018, 10:14:09 am

What setting is it though? Cyberpunky? medieval tech fantasy? Not sure how much the tech level should affect the acronym, but it could give ideas. Not that the thread is short on ideas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 11, 2018, 10:43:20 am

C.I.A.
Center for Investigations to the Arcane

G.E.N.D.A.R.M.E.R.I.E.
General Enterprise for National Development of Arcane Responsibility, Miracle Enforcement & Removal of Infernal Entities

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 11, 2018, 11:00:16 am

Don't you guys think that using acronyms identical to real world ones (like CIA and IRA) would break the immersion?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 11, 2018, 11:32:10 am

That depends on how comedic the campaign is. A good satire can make a campaign (though a poor one can break it).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on March 11, 2018, 01:48:01 pm

Since we're doing this, here's some. They may not all work for your specific squad, but could possibly work for other divisions in the same organization or world in general:

O.R.B.
Oracular Reconnaissance Bureau (First one I thought of. Probably not fitting for the PCs, but would make sense somewhere in the world.)

S.W.O.R.D.
Strategic Wizard Operations and Reconnaissance Division

S.T.A.V.E.S.
Specialized Tactical Arcane Violence Enforcement Squad

W.A.N.D.
Weaponized Arcane National Defense

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: heydude6 on March 11, 2018, 02:44:00 pm

T.O.T.E.M

Tactical Operations Targeting Evil Magic

EDIT:

alternatively

Tactical Operations Targeting Evil with Magic

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 12, 2018, 05:03:25 am

The setting would be standard Pathfinder fantasy with splashes of stuff that get added by their splatbooks, such as guns and the occasional technomagical doodad. I'm quite fine with puns; the group once received a package delivered by a company known as "Free Enterprise Deliveries - Extradimensional" a.k.a. FED-Ex. I try to keep the campaign light-hearted rather than serious most of the time, just a gang of friends rolling dice and cracking jokes over beer and pretzels.

I like a lot of these ideas! The puns run strong with these ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 13, 2018, 02:35:06 am

Tonight we think we had our first NWoD "dramatic failure", over years of playing NWoD.  Unlike a DND critfail, it only happens when someone attempts a roll where they would get 0 or less dice.  They have to roll a natural 10 to succeed, and a 1 is the dramatic failure.  It's pretty rare for people to try, particularly since we usually had willpower or vitae to spend in tough spots.

Welp, one of this party of mountain bumpkins tried to write his name in the snow, and dramatically failed on the expression+dexterity roll.  It came out something like "I'mwithher"

I had fun with this second session of "Lumps of Amber".  They followed the Black Road to Arden Forest, where they met Julian.  He was very helpful, unlocking a little of their potential and accepting their help against the beastmen coming up the road.  They are hunters, after all, which he seemed to appreciate.

Back home, some police came by to ask about the IRS agent who never reported in.  The dumber brother claimed that they had sold the agent a large, creepy Santa figurine.  When pressed, he admitted that it was probably haunted, that it seemed to watch people as they slept.
Since this account was entirely honest, the police thanked the family for their time and departed. 
My players theorize that there is a Demons: The Possessed campaign taking place just "offscreen" that they are only tangentially related to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 13, 2018, 04:40:30 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 13, 2018, 02:35:06 am

Unlike a DND critfail, it only happens when someone attempts a roll where they would get 0 or less dice.

Actually, a player (or ST) can also have a dramatic failure voluntarily in place of a regular failure. Doing so nets them a beat (partial experience point) and, well, makes the story more dramatic. I highly recommend doing it at least once per arc, especially when you find plan A working too often.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 13, 2018, 12:07:47 pm

Edit:  I just realized this might look angry, sorry.  I was going for incredulity, maybe a little frustration!

Sorry if I get this wrong, we get confused about it a lot.  Partially because they changed and reused a name, kinda...

We're playing "Chronicles of Darkness" 1st Edition, which used to be called New World of Darkness.  So we still call it NWoD.  The 2nd edition of Chronicles of Darkness seemed to add beats, and many other mechanic overhauls.  I guess that's just current Chronicles of Darkness, now.

To make things a little worse, we often call that "Stryx Chronicles" even though that only applies to the vampire part of 2nd edition, technically.  We often had to "dodge" Stryx Chronicles material while playing Vampire The Requiem in 1st edition, due to both being """Chronicles of Darkness""".

To make things a LOT worse in my opinion, here (I think) is the second edition Chronicles of Darkness book (http://theonyxpath.com/now-available-chronicles-of-darkness/).  They used the SAME COVER ART, merely changing "World" to "Chronicles" and appending "revised" in front of "storytelling system rulebook" in the corner.  Nowhere does it say second edition, frankly it seems designed to be confused for the VERY different previous version!

And of course both editions are wildly different from Old World of Darkness, which I assume had its own editions, and also the extensive LARPing rulesets :P  Which used to get a lot of use, of course.

tldr; we haven't updated to the edition with beats, also publishers SUCK at naming things clearly :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on March 16, 2018, 05:21:22 pm

Huntsman Spiders don't really make webs, so...probably not all that strong. They'd only use silk to create sacks for their eggs, and I doubt you'd need much in the way of tensile strength for that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Gentlefish on March 16, 2018, 05:22:56 pm

Well, generally spider silk is considered "strong as steel" for its tensile strength vs density, so if this huntsman can spew out steel cable-thick string, it'll be fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 16, 2018, 05:33:21 pm

I'd say steal the raws from the Giant Spider in DF. You've got a giant huntsman spider, so, you can do away with a bit of realism.

What DnD version are you playing (gonna assume pathfinder since a lot of people here play that)? Maybe the monster info for it tells how thick it's web would be. It's one thing to have it shoot out silk on demand and another to say, weave it into rope.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on March 16, 2018, 05:35:05 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on March 16, 2018, 05:22:56 pm

Well, generally spider silk is considered "strong as steel" for its tensile strength vs density, so if this huntsman can spew out steel cable-thick string, it'll be fine.

It depends on the type of silk. Species matters as well. The "strong as steel" stuff is dragline silk, used to make the primary framework of a proper web, and thus it's not something a huntsman spider would use regularly (if at all).

Quote from: greatorder on March 16, 2018, 05:28:10 pm

In the game, however, they have a lot of web-related abilities that imply that the giant ones, in fact, can.

Of course, this is a fantasy spider with fantasy abilities, so....yeah, silk could probably be used for rappelling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 16, 2018, 05:42:41 pm

Well, you can make spider silk armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/spider-silk-bodysuit/) from pure (if alchemically treated) spidersilk and underdark critters make pretty strong materials from it.

Couldn't find anything on how much silk a spider could spin if it wasn't using it's web attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 16, 2018, 05:50:43 pm

Did a google search for dnd 5e giant spider silk and what do you know, first hit is someone asking about spider silk tensile strength. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/5010-spider-silk-tensile-strength

Also found an analogous scenario with a druid in spiderform: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2hkioy/druids_spider_form_can_he_create_a_gamebreaking/

Those don't completely answer your question, but probably gives a starting point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 16, 2018, 05:56:16 pm

just ask a drider

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 16, 2018, 07:11:48 pm

If I was a GM and my players came up with this idea, I'd make it a quest.

I'd say the spider's silk currently isn't strong enough to use without a risk of breaking (maybe 10% per 100 lbs of weight). However, there's an alchemist who needs a favor but knows a way to brew up a special treatment that will let the spider's silk remain strong enough to use without risk for one hour.

He'll give you the recipe if you're willing to (go slay a monster and return with the ingredient he needs|retrieve a rare plant from a dangerous area|escort him safely to a specific location).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 16, 2018, 07:14:36 pm

They have some sort of DnD grey-goo stuff right behind them though, or maybe that was just greatorder being dramatic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 16, 2018, 09:07:12 pm

If they try to strong-arm the alchemist, he flat out says he doesn't have the ingredients to make the brew, which is why they need to do a fetch quest or escort quest to get it.

Of course, if this is a race against time, that's obviously not an option. I'd just tell my players up front there's a 10% chance per 100 lbs of weight they try to suspend by the spider's silk. Less than 100 lbs is no risk, 1,000 lbs is automatically going to break the silk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on March 17, 2018, 06:42:13 am

Quote from: greatorder on March 16, 2018, 07:26:22 pm

You don't know these guys. You don't. They wouldn't accept that, they'd force him to make it under threat of death, and failing that, probably under torture. Or they'd just say "Fuck it" and force him to chug some of the not!Protomolecule and try to work out another way.

Them attempting to use those methods to get something out of and alchemist seems like a wonderful opportunity to teach your players that it doesn't matter how sociopathic you are, you can't always get what you want using threats and violence. Say, he agrees and gives them the formula. But they're not alchemists, they don't know what it does. When they give the formula to their spider, the spider explodes, covering everything nearby in deadly acid. If they survive that and decide to go back for revenge, they've got a prepared alchemist, probably with allies to deal with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 17, 2018, 01:59:29 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 17, 2018, 01:37:23 pm

One of them has proficiency in alchemy, so...

Then you don't need an alchemist at all - if they want to upgrade their spider, have the alchemist start experimenting with it and come up with suitably amusing ingredients for them to hunt down along the course of their murdertravel. Require a live dragon wyrmling, for example, or some kind of spider god's blessing, or some manner of druidic mad science that a convenient antagonist may deploy using spiders of their own! Maybe the party could even open dialogue with said mad druid and share hot spiderfarming tips. Lean into the madness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on March 17, 2018, 02:40:23 pm

If the spider is capable of any web based attacks I'd assume it's already strong enough webbing to support someones weight, normal spider webs can hold things much heavier than the spider that spun the web, and they can produce a lot of the stuff in a day.

The main obstacle I'd give them is that it's an animal and crippled. It needs fed by hand, it needs trained to release webs of a specific kind on command and it's going to be stressed and suffering. You can't just bonk it on the head and get dragline quality silk, you need to keep it healthy and treat it well to maintain it's loyalty and obediance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: LordPorkins on March 23, 2018, 12:23:40 pm

Hey guys.

So, Im playing 5th edition D&D in a campaign. We meet once a week and have 8 people in our party, all at level 7. It’s pretty chill. The DM has created the whole campaign from scratch, and it's pretty baller.

So, one time we got a call that our resident barbarian, Dench, couldn’t make it to a session. His car had broken down, and he couldn’t make it for a few weeks since he didn’t trust the rental (it was a pretty shit rental)

Funnily enough, the session we missed was the one where we killed an ice dragon at the top of a mountain. Turns out the mountain was a volcano, and now a group of salamanders have come out of hibernation and basically blew up the mountain. We got the whole party out just in time, but we had forgotten something: none of us remembered to say “I grab Dench and GTFO.”

SO, basically, Dench has been blown off the top of the mountain into the woods. We’re several sessions past that, and Dench’s player is going to show up soon.The DM has assigned me to make a short, solo adventure about him finding his way back to the town/the party. If you’ve ever seen “The Revenant”, that’s basically what I’m planning out: Dench waking up in the woods, with 1 HP, no items,no weapons, Etc.

The reason Im posting is I need help with a particular detail: I'm planning on Dench’s left hand to be crushed and cut off by some rubble. During his journey, he's going to find a way to get a new hand, preferably one with some sort of magic in it.


Im wondering what balanced bonuses I can give this new hand? He’s a Totem barbarian, so Im planning on him finding some sort of old druidic ruin and having to prove himself to some spirits. Maybe it regrows outta life energy or some such?

Lemme know if yalls got ideas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 23, 2018, 12:36:02 pm

Regrowing out of life energy could be cool. Maybe since it’s totemy magic, it could get stronger as he uses his powers, so anything he wields with that hand gets +1 damage?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: LordPorkins on March 23, 2018, 12:43:39 pm

MMm. I was thinking a little more... advanced. +1 Damage seems to simple if you have a glowing, green, life-energy hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 23, 2018, 12:46:29 pm

+3 damage, it has 5-foot reach, an extra range increment for thrown weapons, weapons in that hand can’t be disarmed...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 23, 2018, 02:01:21 pm

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on March 23, 2018, 12:36:02 pm

Regrowing out of life energy could be cool. Maybe since it’s totemy magic, it could get stronger as he uses his powers, so anything he wields with that hand gets +1 damage?

Let him regrow a hand that's the head of whichever animal he has as his totem. It may or may not give him advice that only he understands. Might also give him scent powers (if bear or wolf) or extreme sight (if eagle).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Whisperling on March 23, 2018, 02:01:37 pm

I'm not exactly experienced at homebrewery, but here are a few general ideas:

For a life energy hand:

-Regeneration comes to mind. Perhaps a 1/day ability to drain some amount of HP from an enemy, or something that adds temporary HP while raging?

-The ability to use an appropriate cantrip (or very minor spell, not sure how systems other than 5e handle this stuff). Maybe something druid, cleric, or ranger-y?

-Occasionally being able to call up a nature spirit or some appropriate magical wildlife to aid them in battle. Could be for a round or two or the duration of a fight, depending on how you want to work it.


Other assorted thoughts:

-A hand that matches his totem animal, albeit with alterations so that he can actually hold things. Gives a related ability- possibly brief bursts of supernatural strength, dexterity, etc.

-A stone hand covered in fey or primordial runes. Might say something if read by someone with knowledge of an appropriate language, could carry magic that has less to do with nature or life.

-A spirit-hand that looks like glowing mist. Might have the power to interact with spirits, souls, the ethereal realm, etc, could nullify or resist magic, might allow them to call up supernatural mists or point and gensture of its own accord to divine information.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 23, 2018, 02:51:51 pm

Quote from: Whisperling on March 23, 2018, 02:01:37 pm

-A spirit-hand that looks like glowing mist. Might have the power to interact with spirits, souls, the ethereal realm, etc, could nullify or resist magic, might allow them to call up supernatural mists or point and gensture of its own accord to divine information.

At the cost of not being able to interact with anything physical with that hand? Gotta balance it somehow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 23, 2018, 02:59:20 pm

If you want the spirit-hand to give benefits, first, it can either be ethereal or material, changing with a bonus action, which means he can punch ghosts, and fight people kind of like D.L from Heroes, but only his hand.
Once per long rest he can declare an attack to be a Spirit Punch before the attack roll, with 1d10 damage, and it does automatic Critical Hit, if it hits, a miss wastes it, with the flavor text noting it as putting his hand inside the enemies flesh and rematerializing it, unless your people would laugh at that, in which case it is just a partucarly glory punch.

It could also halve the time needed for the totem rituals. So five minutes instead of ten.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Whisperling on March 23, 2018, 05:55:49 pm

Quote from: smjjames on March 23, 2018, 02:51:51 pm

Quote from: Whisperling on March 23, 2018, 02:01:37 pm

-A spirit-hand that looks like glowing mist. Might have the power to interact with spirits, souls, the ethereal realm, etc, could nullify or resist magic, might allow them to call up supernatural mists or point and gensture of its own accord to divine information.

At the cost of not being able to interact with anything physical with that hand? Gotta balance it somehow.

I meant to throw out a bunch of ideas and see what stuck, but yeah, I guess you could give it multiple powers and add drawbacks if you wanted to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 23, 2018, 06:03:21 pm

I know you were just throwing out a bunch of ideas, just thought it'd be a good drawback to add since it sounds like it'd be pretty powerful.

I don't know how you generally balance things in DnD and obviously you can get away with a hell of a lot of stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on March 25, 2018, 08:10:57 pm

There was actually a prestige class in one of my earlier campaigns that evolved around a similar concept, you could spec into it after you deciphered the antagonists notes. Soul Surgeons were basically phenomenally talented people who had one (or more) of their limbs (or an eye) and then went through some pretty heavy training to manifest the missing member as a ghost appendage. Short version of the prestige class was that at low levels you got a couple shots per day of purifying/corrupting touch (touch attack to either heal [CL/2]d6 or deal that much damage) and/or draining/bolstering touch (touch attack to drain or buff a an attribute by 1d4+CL/2)- basically slight revisions of the Ghost abilities of the same name.

Innate ghost touch the affected member was kind of a given, and the higher level abilities let Soul Surgeons break off parts of their soul to possess objects and things (enabling them to stabilize bleedouts at distance or puppet the recently dead), and eventually fully walk out of their flesh as a ghost while still barely alive.

Not sure how much of that is relevant to you, but the basic theme of 'GHOST LIMBS ARE AWESOME' applies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mesa on March 26, 2018, 01:31:41 am

Shit, didn't realize this is a thing.

So I got into "proper" RPing earlier this year, when my online friend group invited me to their ongoing D&D campaign - before that I had only the vaguest understanding of tabletop RPGs, and never really had a chance to play one.

But man, have they sucked me in full time. Both as a player in D&D, and a GM in Open Legend (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=170012.0).

In D&D, we currently have two ongoing campaigns (well, technically they're part of the same setting/storyline but one takes place centuries before the other and on a remote continent so they might as well be considered separate).

In the first one, which was essentially meant to introduce me into D&D, we have multiple ongoing parties (though mostly play 1 at a time), we started out in Ravenloft (oh boy!), where the goal was to bring up my character up to at least level 5 so they could join the de facto main party, the aptly-named Party A. (Other, mostly thematic, parties exist in said campaign - Party E is all evil and villainous, Party M is basically Little Witch Academia, and this was Party R.)

However now said character (a celestial dwelf warlock) is basically on her deathbed (which just had to happen when I was had to leave the session early, though I did talk it out with my GM that I basically wanted to switch out of that character for a while), and this week (or whenever we actually get to have another D&D session) her sister is going to take over - who's mostly going to be an evoker kinda wizard, with lots of damaging spells (mostly fire and lightning), but also some transmutation and abjuration on the side.

On the other side of things lies the campaign our GM calls "Fall of Greycloud" - located on the faraway island nation of Greycloud, which (unlike the rest of tihs particular world) is in support of magic which is otherwise seemingly restricted across the world due to some nasty past events.
It's meant to be a bit of a "old-school RPG nostalgia" campaign/party, and for that one I made a dragonborn eldritch knight - a sword and shield is cool and all, but have you considered adding both magical and natural fire to the mix? Oh, and she's...very gluttonous.
We have not started this campaign yet, but I love the setting my friend has been setting up for that one!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 26, 2018, 02:08:07 am

So I'm rejoining a 5e campaign I had to leave for a dozen sessions or so. I've made a new character, an amnesiac kenku bard who has lost his memory so far that he doesn't even remember why he became an adventurer, though he has a faint idea it was a very good reason. The party is in the middle of a dungeon, so the planned meeting involves him suddenly appearing and angrily chasing a non-hostile skeleton while disguised as a beautiful elf maiden. I've told the other players that my character is an elf, but the illusion spell is supposed to break within the first 30 minutes for a dramatic "what the fuck just happened" moment. What else could I do to make things an even bigger surprise, keeping in mind that I probably have to run eveyrthing through the GM?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on March 26, 2018, 03:23:55 am

You could try sneaking in some caws before the illusion breaks, to aid in the confusion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 26, 2018, 03:27:15 am

Of course. I intend to change my accent every time I open my mouth to see if anyone notices. I also typed in a 'character bio' that's just "something isn't quite right here" to be replaced with the actual one after the reveal.

Note: we're playing over the web, with live voice but no video, and in the Finnish language.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 26, 2018, 04:11:48 am

Treasure time!

So my Pathfinder group's going up against the Seven Sons of Sin, a series of mini-bosses with a theme each. After defeating Sloth, Wrath, and Gluttony, they've finally reached Greed.

Appropriately, this is the point where I dump a massive room of treasure onto them. I also have a pretty crazy loot budget, since they're level 15 and they're about 500,000 gp below their ideal WBL currently.

So, if you were a player, what cool stuff would you be wishing for in a greed demon's horde? Obviously I have some individualised items I plan to plant that will assist specific characters, but I'd love to hear anyone's ideas about awesome treasure that isn't simply an upgrade to a character's base numbers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on March 26, 2018, 04:23:58 am

Items that grant wishes (limited use, some charges used), possibly evil genies in bottles--

Priceless antiques: magical swords and armor with history behind them, that sort of thing. Be sure to include horribly cursed items, like things that induce "Midas touch" type horror.
magical formulae for producing wealth (possibly at some horrific cost, like sacrificing babies or something)
Fancy clothes, carpets, silk curtains, squishy comfy pillows, treatises on how to get filthy rich by selling other people's souls, etc.

Oh, a list of all the people this demon managed to swindle / inventory of owned souls, would be amusing as well.

That and a nice haul of hard cash.  Be sure to punish the party if they themselves act too greedy. Greed is a sin, after all. A demon of this sin would not be ignorant of this, and would have tailored its coffers accordingly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 26, 2018, 06:05:38 am

Ten million random household objects of values between a silver piece and a gold piece, all of them fragile, bulky or otherwise inconvenient to transport. Good luck trying to liquidate 100000 antique dinner plates into usable wealth. Amongst the junk, however, are several mighty magical items, if the PCs simply look instead of leaving the "disappointing" pile or going crazy figuring out how to move the "treasure". To find the good stuff, they must not be too greedy, but they can't ignore the opportunity for profit either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on March 26, 2018, 06:13:00 am

Can hardly wait for the "Crack whore dungeon" Lust must have...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NJW2000 on March 26, 2018, 06:36:08 am

Objects made of precious metal and fabrics that really shouldn't be.

Solid platinum beds, for example. With platinum sheets.

Oh, and some useful metals like adamantine. Still being end to make hatstands and umbrellas though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 26, 2018, 09:12:02 am

And throw in a mimic or two, theres ALWAYS mimics in treasure rooms. Unless you're not that type of DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 26, 2018, 03:01:56 pm

Is there any chance that a gnome with the "mounted Combatant" feat in 5E, if given a piggyback ride, would give  the piggyback giver Evasion and be able to take hits for him?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 26, 2018, 03:15:01 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 26, 2018, 02:59:07 pm

And if they raise it as a zombie, it'll work for a bit. Once the spinnerets start rotting...

Kinda sad that Gentle Repose (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) doesn't work anymore for what it was explicitly mostly used for in my experience during 3.5, how's a guy supposed to keep his corpses fresh anymore?

Though I figure the bigger problem would be the zombie spider running out of silk since I figure it's not actually generating new protein inside its body while dead unless they make it into a much meaner kind of undead spider. That said, a spider infused with the essence of night and malice to imbue it with eternal unlife and magical powers seems like it'd be great in general to have on your side or, failing that, as some kind of recurring antagonist.

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 26, 2018, 03:01:56 pm

Is there any chance that a gnome with the "mounted Combatant" feat in 5E, if given a piggyback ride, would give  the piggyback giver Evasion and be able to take hits for him?

If the DM finds it funny enough there probably is. Even the advantage on melee attack rolls would only apply to Small creatures (unless you're riding a giant or ogre or something, but then there's no way in hell you'd be able to reach anything from up there to hit it) in that event so it's not particularly gamebreaking or anything.

Hm. Mounted Rogue could be pretty good, on that note. Get up to some real Zorro bullshit that way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 26, 2018, 03:20:03 pm

Actually I was thinking of a small barbarian with a lance. Since then he's a tank that totally prevents anyone from hitting his "mount" with an attack.

What are the stats on the other small races of 5E? The ones not in the PH?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 26, 2018, 03:29:51 pm

Goblins get Dex and Con bonuses plus a thing that lets them do extra damage with an attack equal to their level once per long rest, so if your DM allows the Volo races that's a fightier option than the gnome. There's also the deep gnome but that's just a gnome with super darkvision and an advantage to stealth checks in rocky terrain. Finally, Kobolds from Volo's get a Dex bonus but also a Strength penalty so probably not what you want in a barbarian.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 26, 2018, 03:32:32 pm

There doesn't happen to be a small but strong playable creature in 5E, is there?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 26, 2018, 03:37:11 pm

No. Which means you have the perfect niche to propose a scaled-up version of the Pictsie as a custom player race.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 26, 2018, 03:43:40 pm

Oh, that would be so awesome. But aren't they more Tiny sized? Or is six inches only Small?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 26, 2018, 04:13:04 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 26, 2018, 03:43:40 pm

Oh, that would be so awesome. But aren't they more Tiny sized? Or is six inches only Small?

He did say scaled up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on March 26, 2018, 04:22:57 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 26, 2018, 02:59:07 pm

And if they raise it as a zombie, it'll work for a bit. Once the spinnerets start rotting...

I don't think they could raise the spider as an undead anyway, both the main spells for creating undead are humanoid only for some stupid reason, and the only other normal way to make undead is Finger of Death last I checked*, which is pretty high level.

*Also Zendikar vampire bites, which is also humanoid only because reasons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 26, 2018, 04:54:40 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 26, 2018, 02:59:07 pm

So, I think I've come up with a solution to the spider problem. And by "I've come up with" I mean "You lot did and I've slightly altered things"

Basically, yes, the spider can produce silk they can rappel down. The thing is the spider's not easy to "Tame". It's a spider after all, the thing runs almost on pure instinct.

So, in order to get it to work, they'll need to produce some kind of potion that basically turns it into a braindead meat-to-silk machine. The guys get weird attachments to various things, so it may (emphasis on may, like I said the attachments are weird.) present a moral issue: Do they effectively kill Boris to make their SWAT dreams come true, or do they let Boris live out her days as a disabled spider mascot?

And if they raise it as a zombie, it'll work for a bit. Once the spinnerets start rotting...

Maybe there could be some amulet of spider control somewhere?

I thought your players already figured out how to get it to produce silk on demand?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 04:54:05 am

Thanks for all the treasure suggestions guys! Definitely using these.

I've also come up with a great set of items to add into my treasure room. Namely, a belt that adds +6 to all physical scores, and a headband that adds +6 to all mental scores. Both are cursed, however. Created by a gnomish illusionist archmage in order to protect his property, the belt acts as a girdle of opposite gender, and the headband as a crown of blindness, unless the wearer states that their name is that of the item's creator before wearing it. From then on, if they name themselves as any name other than that name, the items immediately cease to function until removed for at least 24 hours.

So, what ludicrous gnomish name shall we decide to have my unfortunate players adopt?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on March 27, 2018, 04:55:43 am

Gnathan Gnorris

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on March 27, 2018, 05:23:25 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 04:54:05 am

Thanks for all the treasure suggestions guys! Definitely using these.

I've also come up with a great set of items to add into my treasure room. Namely, a belt that adds +6 to all physical scores, and a headband that adds +6 to all mental scores. Both are cursed, however. Created by a gnomish illusionist archmage in order to protect his property, the belt acts as a girdle of opposite gender, and the headband as a crown of blindness, unless the wearer states that their name is that of the item's creator before wearing it. From then on, if they name themselves as any name other than that name, the items immediately cease to function until removed for at least 24 hours.

So, what ludicrous gnomish name shall we decide to have my unfortunate players adopt?

Is that going to the treasure for Greed? 'Cause it actually sounds really appropriate for Pride.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on March 27, 2018, 05:28:01 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 26, 2018, 03:43:40 pm

Oh, that would be so awesome. But aren't they more Tiny sized? Or is six inches only Small?

An actual Pictsie would be a Fine-sized creature with 12-18 points of Strength and presumably a special ability that lets them count as Medium for Strength checks and encumbrance, so you'd just be using them as a guideline to make a different kind of gnome with Pictsie-like attributes or a whole new race vaguely related to gnomes. I'd advise pitching the idea to your DM and see if they want to work with you on it because homebrewing something in 5E is pretty easy, fun and not at all complicated to balance well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on March 27, 2018, 05:58:08 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on March 27, 2018, 04:55:43 am

Gnathan Gnorris

Gnicter Nickers
(Say it out loud. tee hee hee)

It needs to be said like this:

"I, Gnicter Nickers, and shall now don the vestments!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 27, 2018, 07:55:29 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 04:54:05 am

I've also come up with a great set of items to add into my treasure room. Namely, a belt that adds +6 to all physical scores, and a headband that adds +6 to all mental scores. Both are cursed, however. Created by a gnomish illusionist archmage in order to protect his property, the belt acts as a girdle of opposite gender, and the headband as a crown of blindness, unless the wearer states that their name is that of the item's creator before wearing it. From then on, if they name themselves as any name other than that name, the items immediately cease to function until removed for at least 24 hours.

But how is the doubly-enchanted belt cursed? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on March 27, 2018, 08:07:57 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 04:54:05 am

So, what ludicrous gnomish name shall we decide to have my unfortunate players adopt?

Stolen from Reddit:

Gnome Chomsky.

Nibbles T. McGibbles. The T is always said and stands for Tibbles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 27, 2018, 08:13:19 am

Gnome Ann (https://xkcd.com/1704/) (particularly considering the belt) or Kaydee'Ee

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 27, 2018, 09:23:24 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 27, 2018, 07:55:29 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 04:54:05 am

I've also come up with a great set of items to add into my treasure room. Namely, a belt that adds +6 to all physical scores, and a headband that adds +6 to all mental scores. Both are cursed, however. Created by a gnomish illusionist archmage in order to protect his property, the belt acts as a girdle of opposite gender, and the headband as a crown of blindness, unless the wearer states that their name is that of the item's creator before wearing it. From then on, if they name themselves as any name other than that name, the items immediately cease to function until removed for at least 24 hours.

But how is the doubly-enchanted belt cursed? :P

Yeah, Any power gamer would prefer the +6 than being their original gender. And a girdle of opposite gender is just great for a transgender person.
Maybe the belt should instead put the Slow spell on the wearer as long as they wear it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 09:51:07 am

Ah, I see I should have clarified. You see, the items only provide their curse effect when used incorrectly. No bonuses unless you meet the item's usage requirements, just going blind and having your dingle drop off (or pop out, as the case may be).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on March 27, 2018, 09:56:38 am

Do you have a plan for how they can learn the proper activation sequence?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on March 27, 2018, 09:57:49 am

Given that they're stealing it from someone who's not the original owner, there can be a note attached.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 27, 2018, 09:59:58 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 27, 2018, 09:56:38 am

Do you have a plan for how they can learn the proper activation sequence?

The name is Gnome Ann. Gnome Ann can use this device!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 10:02:51 am

Yep, they'll have multiple opportunities to identify the curse.

First, the item's so damned good yet the enemy isn't using it? Should be a red flag.

Second, it'll have a script inside the item in gnomish to the effect of "Property of [insert gnomish name here], hands off!"

Finally, the treasure room will include a scroll of Analyze Dweomer, which will automatically identify the curse if they use it to examine the items.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on March 27, 2018, 10:26:08 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 27, 2018, 10:02:51 am

Finally, the treasure room will include a scroll of Analyze Dweomer, which will automatically identify the curse if they use it to examine the items.

In a conveniently accessable location? I'd imagine the treasure room in the Greed thing to be not unlike Mammons vault in Kill Six Billion Demons (https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/seeker-of-thrones-9-120/), except with maybe half the gold and littered with all kinds of expensive stuff, most of it would be junk to your players or otherwise useless.

Although half of that vast place would still be more than your players would ever be able to use, unless you go for the equivalent of a megaproject at some point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 27, 2018, 02:09:31 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on March 26, 2018, 02:08:07 am

So I'm rejoining a 5e campaign I had to leave for a dozen sessions or so. --

So apparently the GM had had a demon disguise as my previous character after I'd left and the party was on to the deception almost immediately, pondering whether I was playing another demon or a doppelgänger. After they figured out there was an illusion, they even guessed that my character didn't exist at all. I had the character reveal himself after they suggested using torture instead of, say, Dispel Magic. Apparently playing the damsel in distress card doesn't work on this party anymore. I did earn inspiration for it, though, meaning it was probably all worth it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on March 29, 2018, 07:53:46 pm

Quote from: greatorder on March 29, 2018, 07:50:59 pm

So, does anyone have any ideas for factions that could spring up from this, aside from your bog standard guilds, colleges and such?

What size of factions do you want and what role do you want them to play narratively?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on March 29, 2018, 08:41:00 pm

Well, if you just want the adventurer-facing parts of factions you can probably just put together a set of random tables and roll until something cool falls out. List out all the things players might have a strong opinion about someone else controlling; in your particular case, that might be elementals and other spirits, some localized ex-divine esoterica, organized magic, the law, and the local economy. Then just put together a table for how openly they control it (by default I roll a d4 to see if they're open, an open secret, acting through a front group or actually unknown) and roll on the first table again to see what they want to control but don't yet, then figure out why. Once something makes sense, scale it up based on how cool it is and repeat until you're satisfied.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NJW2000 on March 30, 2018, 04:37:39 am

A faction that wants to explore past the outerlands?

A sort of reality-police that prevent breaks and portals with an iron fist?

A faction trying to find a way to kill all gods and prevent any more ever arising permanently?

A faction trying to reclaim the original world, either by manipulation of reality or mutation to survive there?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on March 30, 2018, 02:57:42 pm

A group of Paladins of Redemption from 5E? Possibly trying to go back so they can try to redeem any surviving gods?

A secret group of succubus hookers?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on March 31, 2018, 08:05:09 am

I hope Myth-Weavers comes back online soon...

We finally started 5th edition Thursday.  After actually playing a session, most of my expectations were confirmed.  Advantage is still weird but okay, as are dragonborn/drow player races (now that 4e's alignment fuckery has been reversed).  We have a paladin in the party, and that's not a potential disaster like in 3.5.

I particularly like the "background" choice.  It helped give me some foundation on which to form my character's personality.  My dwarf fighter is a sage, quite intelligent but rolled 6 charisma, so I have him constantly remark on how "fascinating" other people's cultures are at inappropriate times.  He also shares trivia in an attempt to look smarter, and makes bad puns.  Somehow this character is very easy to get into (;

I'm going warhammer-and-board, which worked out pretty well in the practice/intro session.  The "protection" ability came in more useful than I expected, saving the dragonborn paladin from a melee crit and saving our tiefling sorcerer from a ranged attack.  Said sorcerer *really* needs to learn mage armor...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on March 31, 2018, 10:45:42 am

Yeah, backgrounds are such a great roleplaying tool. One of my first 5e characters was a barbarian, and, while normally such a character is often roleplayed as a dumb brute (though it wouldn't have made sense with him, since I somehow managed to roll him with all stats at least above a 14, with a couple of 18's), the fact that he was a guild merchant played a much bigger role in how he interacted with people than his barbarianism (which I decided was something of a family tradition, which he would tap into when things got violent.)

Another great one was my half-elf noble warlock. Technically he was heir to the throne, but he had enough political enemies due to his parentage (the other half was half-orc, in a union meant to bring peace with the nearby half-orc kingdom, though his half-orc mother was eventually assassinated) that he didn't dare stick around the elven kingdom, and instead  sought the help of a mysterious Archfey patron to give him the power to take on his enemies. And, in play, it was fun to be a haughty noble who didn't understand that not everyone cares about his noble status (especially a bunch of dwarves who never really leave their mountain nation and don't really care much about the outside world except in regards to trade).

And the current character I'm playing is a bard with the pirate background, so pretty much all his spells have a pirate theme, like I use Find Familiar to have parrot familiar, and I can use Bestow Curse, which I fluff as giving them a black spot, and I keep my stuff in a Leomund's Secret Chest.

Also, my backup character I'm planning is a conjuration-specialist wizard, and I'm planning that he used to be a charlatan who specialized in shell games, and he's going to have been trained by a PC from a previous game who was an evocation-specialist wizard who I believe had the criminal background or somesuch and used to make money fencing magical goods.

So, yeah, I think backgrounds help you get a lot more character out of your characters, even if they don't have that much mechanical weight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Culise on April 01, 2018, 07:48:07 pm

Quote from: greatorder on April 01, 2018, 05:50:20 pm

Quote from: NJW2000 on March 30, 2018, 04:37:39 am

A faction that wants to explore past the outerlands?

A sort of reality-police that prevent breaks and portals with an iron fist?

A faction trying to find a way to kill all gods and prevent any more ever arising permanently?

A faction trying to reclaim the original world, either by manipulation of reality or mutation to survive there?

Appreciate the ideas. Though the third one's not really feasible since all the gods are dead.

In this setting, clerics work not by worship, but by basically siphoning minuscule amounts of divine power straight from the corpses of the gods. Since the gods aren't actively holding onto the power, they're able to get away with it.

Clerics are generally viewed as something of a necessary evil. On the one hand, they use the power that destroyed the world. On the other, they do all sorts of healing stuff.

Ah, in that case, how about ones that seek to revive their own god?  Say, because they also hope it'll repair the material plane, because they hope to gain power as the facilitators of this revival, or from the divine side, because the god itself pulled a Bhaal and made plans to arrange matters in the event of their demise.  This could play interestingly with the ones that want to create a new god or use their power without ascending, too, as well as those who hated the gods for the damage their wars wrought.  It'd kind of be an archetypal villain set, though I suppose you could give it a twist by making their goal to revive one of the gods who would be considered "good" in a conventional setting. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 02, 2018, 09:20:37 am

I know I've said this before but it bears repeating.

For living in the current home of Gen Con, finding a gaming group in the area (especially non-D&D/Pathfinder) is almost impossible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 02, 2018, 09:57:14 am

Quote from: greatorder on April 01, 2018, 08:24:43 pm

Thing about this is that it's basically a case of "The age of the gods has passed". There's no divine recovery. Any attempts are doomed to failure (except possibly the guys that want to make a supergod that is all the gods combined into one, and if that happens it's beyond the scope of the campaign). The gods have come back numerous times, though records generally get dodgy around then. Some adventuring party thinks "Maybe we should take the power of the gods...", take them, and then become the gods, right down to the hatred of one another. Another war occurs, though since it's in the material plane it has minimal effect, and they all die again.

Hmm. Perhaps I could make some faction that's actively attempting to repress adventurers to stop this, for fear of it one time spilling into the Outerlands.

And the gods aren't good. They were at first, but as time went on they basically became uncaring. When they nearly wiped out the sentient races, it wasn't out of malice. It was simply because they didn't care that they were literally driving them extinct.

That war between gods sounds like a cautionary tale about MAD. Except that the races had a place to escape to.

Also, sapient, not sentient.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on April 02, 2018, 12:34:14 pm

What is the Outerlands?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 02, 2018, 12:40:36 pm

Quote from: greatorder on April 01, 2018, 08:24:43 pm

Thing about this is that it's basically a case of "The age of the gods has passed". There's no divine recovery. Any attempts are doomed to failure (except possibly the guys that want to make a supergod that is all the gods combined into one, and if that happens it's beyond the scope of the campaign). The gods have come back numerous times, though records generally get dodgy around then. Some adventuring party thinks "Maybe we should take the power of the gods...", take them, and then become the gods, right down to the hatred of one another. Another war occurs, though since it's in the material plane it has minimal effect, and they all die again.

Hmm. Perhaps I could make some faction that's actively attempting to repress adventurers to stop this, for fear of it one time spilling into the Outerlands.

And the gods aren't good. They were at first, but as time went on they basically became uncaring. When they nearly wiped out the sentient races, it wasn't out of malice. It was simply because they didn't care that they were literally driving them extinct.

You could take a page from Apocalypse World's book and have there be a series of god-shaped holes in the universe, totaling up to a malignant psychic maelstrom that howls across the material plane.

Or you could take even more pages from it and generate factions in accordance with the threats they pose (warlords, grotesques, afflictions, brutes, landscapes etc.), together with the general types of moves you can expect them to make.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Yoink on April 03, 2018, 02:02:21 am

Quick question: is a d20 modern core rulebook a worthwhile purchase?
There's one here at work for about six bucks (before my discount), doesn't mention an edition anywhere but apparently it was first printed in 2002, if that tells you anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 03, 2018, 02:08:00 am

... Most core books can be found in PDF form in one place or another at 0$.

If you dont feel like having a "3 ring binder version", and instead want pretty paperback, just for the feel-- sure, go ahead. Not sure about utility for function though. That depends on the book itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Yoink on April 03, 2018, 02:37:59 am

Yeah, I don't like e-books in general, let alone e-rulebooks - and I'm much too lazy to get them printed out myself (plus that would look less pleasant).

Might grab it tomorrow, I'll see how much I end up spending on groceries this evening. I was actually rather surprised at the number of rulebooks, modules and other RPG-related items I saw at work today; not sure if a big lot of such things came in recently or if it's just because someone rearranged the book section to make such things more visible.
Possibly both!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 03, 2018, 03:01:58 am

(*Learned how to bind real perfect-bound books on his own, because he thought it was cool. A color laser printer, with 11x17 paper, and a reasonable gutter allowance, some decopage glue, and some quality cardstock-- and you can have a very nice printed copy.  Usually, the cost of materials exceeds the cost of just buying it however. There ARE exceptions to that rule though.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 04, 2018, 06:37:51 am

As a GM, I always value having a physical hardcover copy of the rules.

So much harder to bludgeon my players with electronic versions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 04, 2018, 07:41:58 am

You know... I kinda wonder how thick an unabridged "3.5E Core + all expansions + all official splatbooks" sewn-spine bound book would be, and if people would be interested in appropriating them. LOL

(Naturally, unofficial reproduction is copyright violation. But having one enormous hardcover that you can put little earmark tabs on beats having 30 books, I think. I wouldnt use perfect-binding for that though. I would use sewn binding. Means I would need to make and use a drill jig to have uniformly placed holes in the quires for assembly, but I think it would be pretty bad ass.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: LordPorkins on April 04, 2018, 10:28:27 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 04, 2018, 06:37:51 am

As a GM, I always value having a physical hardcover copy of the rules.

So much harder to bludgeon my players with electronic versions.

Agreed. When someones whining about a rule throwing your laptop at their heads just doesn't have that same satisfaction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mini on April 04, 2018, 11:11:36 am

Quote from: wierd on April 04, 2018, 07:41:58 am

You know... I kinda wonder how thick an unabridged "3.5E Core + all expansions + all official splatbooks" sewn-spine bound book would be

Not including 3.0 or setting specific books I have 47 of them on my computer. So it would likely be thicker than tall or wide. I can't see such a production being practical. If you add the setting books I have then that's another 33, and I am sure there are a significant number of those that I haven't retrieved. I've also used 5 of the 3.0 books (thanks grandfathering), but I'm sure there are a few more of those that still have useful things that never got 3.5 versions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on April 04, 2018, 01:47:47 pm

If in 5E you successfully True Polymorph something(into an object) that returns to life when killed, such as a naga or devil out of hell(such as a rakshasa), does it return to life, or stay polymorphed?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 04, 2018, 01:49:26 pm

It's an object then, not whatever it is that returns to life, so I imagine it stays the object.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on April 04, 2018, 01:53:00 pm

Are there any limits on what kind of object it can create?
I assume an entire castle from a single mouse won't work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 04, 2018, 02:08:12 pm

It's a 9th-level spell of world-shattering power. Turning a mouse into a castle should be within its power (unless you argue that a castle is made up of several discrete objects). And IIRC there's even a lower-level spell that conjures a castle or of nothing anyway. And yes, turning into an inanimate object causes the monster to lose all its abilities, presumably including any death-defying ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on April 04, 2018, 02:37:11 pm

Okay, but it still seems like the most powerful 9th level spell, At least of the ones I can think of at the moment. What else can potentially one-hit-kill the Tarrarasque?
Also, if you use it on your dead friend, does you friend have control of the 9 CR creature?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 04, 2018, 02:49:09 pm

another, bigger, tarrasque

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on April 04, 2018, 02:51:09 pm

Ah, but will it turn the smaller Tarrasque into adamantine armor, or a fortress made of diamonds?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 04, 2018, 02:52:57 pm

it will turn the smaller tarrasque into a corpse

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 04, 2018, 04:36:34 pm

That seems like a contradiction, as a tarrasque corpse does not stay a corpse for long.

That almost sounds like the kind of thing that would be in the dungeon of doom though, at the bottom of a fall-away floor trap--- A room with over a dozen small tarrasque, in perpetual combat with one giant tarrasque. Basically some place you dont want to be anywhere near. The saving throws against the terrifying presences of that many in close proximity alone would be horrible, let alone actually trying to survive.


And now I have an interesting question...

Tarrasque has a carapace, and can grow to unholy sizes. This means it must molt. Do discarded carapaces still have insane resistances to magic? If so, armor fashioned from the discarded moltings would be fantastic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on April 04, 2018, 04:44:20 pm

If you brutalize the Tarrasque's corpse after it becomes a corpse, it stays a corpse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 04, 2018, 04:52:02 pm

There could totally be a mcgffin in the basement to keep them from becoming corpses in the first place though. The tarrasques might not even have been intentional in such a circumstance. LOL

(Fall trap ends up with the horrors inside, but is originally just intended as an oubliette where the person trapped in it is not permitted to die. Ever.  If I were an evil necromancer in love with the idea that I controlled the powers of life and death, it is the kind of thing I would make. I would even be quite proud of the fact that it does true-reanimation.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 04, 2018, 05:08:19 pm

...Aw what, looks like it no longer has its dreaded ultra-regeneration in 5e (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Tarrasque#content)?  That's a shame.  In 3.5 you have to not only brutalize the "corpse", you literally need a miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (or wish) to make it stay down.

The idea of combining all the books sounds kinda cool but definitely too much material, would be awkward.  In my experience I usually know which book I need to look in anyway.  But a massive tome could be a neat conversation piece, like those gigantic semi-stationary church Bibles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 04, 2018, 11:47:34 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 04, 2018, 02:37:11 pm

Okay, but it still seems like the most powerful 9th level spell, At least of the ones I can think of at the moment. What else can potentially one-hit-kill the Tarrarasque?

The Tarrasque has Magic Resistance and Legendary Resistance, so actually having it fail its save against True Polymorph can be hard. Still, other spells that can one-hit-kill-or-otherwise-defeat it include but are probably not limited to Wish, Imprisonment, Dominate Monster, Plane Shift. Plane Shift is 7th-level, so you don't even need to get that high-leveled for it.

Quote

Also, if you use it on your dead friend, does you friend have control of the 9 CR creature?

Not on your dead friend, as a creature target must have at least 1 HP. However, the spell states that the creature retains its personality, so RAW the player stays in control, but that's probably subject to GM approval. Also note that using it on a PC causes them to lose all of their class features.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 04, 2018, 11:53:47 pm

But they get the creature's feature list instead, which may arguably be better, depending on what they get turned into.

Say for instance, you have a psionic type character get transformed into a mind flayer. there is no reason for them to suddenly forget their known powers, but now have a vastly more capable form, with lots of intrinsics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Biowraith on April 05, 2018, 02:37:36 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on April 04, 2018, 11:47:34 pm

Quote

Also, if you use it on your dead friend, does you friend have control of the 9 CR creature?

Not on your dead friend, as a creature target must have at least 1 HP. However, the spell states that the creature retains its personality, so RAW the player stays in control, but that's probably subject to GM approval. Also note that using it on a PC causes them to lose all of their class features.

You could use it on the dead friend under the "Object into Creature" usage; it's been clarified that corpses are considered objects, so it's viable.  Said dead friend wouldn't get control of the creature under that usage though - RAW the caster gets control until the spell becomes permanent and then it's under GM control (GM discretion notwithstanding, of course).  It's implied the resulting creature gets its own new personality in that case, since the retaining personality bit is only mentioned for "Creature into Creature" (presumably since most objects don't have personalities, but either way in this case the character's mind/soul isn't present to be retained).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 05, 2018, 03:29:39 am

Sounds like a great story hook, to be honest.

The king is dead, but the court wizard has claimed to revive him! Uncover the mystery of the new power behind the throne.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 05, 2018, 03:33:47 am

There is all manner of room for shenanigans though.

Take your typical lich for instance.  The body is not the vessel for the soul; that is phylectory. The body is just a puppet, which is why it can be destroyed, and can reform over and over again.

So, say somebody abuses object-to-creature on a lich. What happens? GM will probably say "Needs to have been 'destroyed' first (eg, it is bits of bony stuff on the floor), but that still has the same problem. Whence the lich reform from? What controls the reanimated body? etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 05, 2018, 05:15:47 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 05, 2018, 03:29:39 am

Sounds like a great story hook, to be honest.

The king is dead, but the court wizard has claimed to revive him! Uncover the mystery of the new power behind the throne.

Somebody cast Disjunction on the king and he turned into a ratty old footstool! Now the kingdom is in an uproar as the nobility sponsor adventurers to go far and wide in search of the means to undo this terrible curse!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Biowraith on April 05, 2018, 06:26:56 am

Quote from: wierd on April 05, 2018, 03:33:47 am

There is all manner of room for shenanigans though.

Take your typical lich for instance.  The body is not the vessel for the soul; that is phylectory. The body is just a puppet, which is why it can be destroyed, and can reform over and over again.

So, say somebody abuses object-to-creature on a lich. What happens? GM will probably say "Needs to have been 'destroyed' first (eg, it is bits of bony stuff on the floor), but that still has the same problem. Whence the lich reform from? What controls the reanimated body? etc.

I'm not sure object-to-creature has any real implications for a lich.  While it's in/controlling the body it's considered a creature (at least, skeletons and zombies are considered creatures) so no object-to-creature until you 'kill' it, turning it into a regular corpse (or pile of bones).  At that point its mind/will has vacated the premises and is away starting the reforming process, so I wouldn't expect anything you did to the remains would affect or involve it anymore.

Creature-to-object maybe raises a question though, whether it's considered 'destroyed' and gets to go reform a new body, or whether it's stuck as the object, possibly forever.

(all based on 5e, I dunno if either lich or true polymorph works differently in other editions/settings)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 05, 2018, 08:53:43 am

In 3.5 a quirk of undead is that they're vulnerable to Disintegrate.  They're usually immune to fortitude saves (generally poison or death effects), but they *are* affected by fortitude-save spells which also effect objects.  And their fortitude saves, which usually don't come up, suck.  (A particularly nice touch is that it's based on their charisma, force of ego, seeing how they have no CON score)

It does still need to be a spell which can target creatures, IIRC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 05, 2018, 10:36:48 am

The polymorph rules, particularly in 3.5e, are a can of half-demon worms that are best left unopened. They're how I managed to get 30 AC on a first level character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Cruxador on April 10, 2018, 10:14:53 am

Quote from: greatorder on April 01, 2018, 08:24:43 pm

Thing about this is that it's basically a case of "The age of the gods has passed". There's no divine recovery. Any attempts are doomed to failure

Just because you know that doesn't mean all of the people in your setting do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 11, 2018, 05:28:50 am

Yeah, as a fellow GM I recommend going extremely heavy on the exposition button. Unless everything's written down for review later, if you're giving players info they'll need later you're probably only gonna get them to remember half of it at best. If they're anything like my players, most of their attention's focused on coming up with terrible puns and atrocious wordplay, or simply scarfing snacks before the next combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: heydude6 on April 11, 2018, 07:18:30 am

Anyone have advice on creating a world map? I tried to find a ultility online, but they either didn’t give enough control or they cost money.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 11, 2018, 08:28:35 am

What LoD do you want?  I've had decent results from Bryce3D+Photoshop and some other goodies. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 11, 2018, 08:38:30 am

So excited. My first actual game in... over a year, actually, is tonight. And it's not D&D/PF.

DCC, here I come.

That... failed before it started. GM and players were no-shows.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: heydude6 on April 11, 2018, 08:51:26 am

Quote from: wierd on April 11, 2018, 08:28:35 am

What LoD do you want?  I've had decent results from Bryce3D+Photoshop and some other goodies.

My main problem is drawing good land masses, rivers, and roads. You now how land masses aren’t perfectly smooth curves? Well I want to figure out how to give it that proper jagged look.

When I draw roads, they look way too much like straight lines. And my rivers are completely nonsensical.

TLDR: Not high, but not amateur MS paint either

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 11, 2018, 08:58:40 am

Bryce3D is a terrain generating/rendering application. It allows you to import a heightmap, then it renders it in 3D.  One of the vantage points you can take a picture from is "Straight down"-- which can give you the topological features layer for photoshop.

You dont have to be all that fantastic at generating heightmaps. DF's legends mode export functions will export terrain data as a suitable hieghtmap for you, and you can thus use DF as a proceedural generator.

Bryce is however buyware, but is not that expensive. There are probably free alternatives. I will look.

*EDIT
Terragen4 has a "Free for personal use" version. I will download and assess functionality for purpose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 11, 2018, 11:05:36 am

Ok, It "kinda" works, but Bryce is easier to use, and has better options, IMO. It's only like 20$.  Terragen is a real PITA, and the render size is deplorably small. Not really well suited for this, IMHO.  Bryce works so much better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 11, 2018, 02:42:43 pm

Set all of your games in the trackless steppe populated by nomadic tribes and bodies of water that are actually wandering dragons.

EDIT: Or just draw teeth instead of mountains and see if your players question it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on April 11, 2018, 02:44:43 pm

Quote from: greatorder on April 11, 2018, 02:15:26 pm

So, making another map and I've discovered that I cannot draw mountains for shit.

Looked up guides for map making online, everything's fine except mountains. No matter how much I follow guides for them, I just cannot draw any remotely satisfactory looking ones.

Would you be satisfied with a topographic map of your world?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on April 11, 2018, 02:53:03 pm

What time would that be? Are you looking for stylized mountains that just vaguely indicate mountainous terrain in the general area or representations of specific peaks?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 11, 2018, 03:58:10 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on April 11, 2018, 02:42:43 pm

EDIT: Or just draw teeth instead of mountains and see if your players question it.

And then do the three Bs of gamemastering - Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Those look like teeth? That's because they are! There's a minor religion based around the idea that our world is actually the head of a long-deceased god.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 11, 2018, 07:29:54 pm

Believe it or not, you can probably get a very nice looking map out of DF's data exports using photoshop ALONE.

I think I made an example once some time ago... let me see if I can find it...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 11, 2018, 10:09:44 pm

I had this same problem and decided to just draw my own map. It's hardly professional looking, but at least gives players an idea of where they can go adventuring. Took a few hours over a couple of days to draw the map, colour it, label the towns and add a bit of texture, but I'm no professional artist.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f239/s4079856/Campaign%20Map%20Final%20Half%20Size_zpsig3oiofn.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 11, 2018, 10:17:42 pm

I have one I made using Bryce + photoshop many many years ago.

Spoiler: clicky (click to show/hide)

(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x248/wierdw/green.jpg~original)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on April 11, 2018, 10:32:56 pm

I've always been a fan of just drawing my own maps. It's pretty fun, in my experience, and if you know what you're doing you can make some pretty good looking ones. My most recent outing, which I think I'll be using more as a supplementary map than the main one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/6fUdU3H.png)

Just throwing this out since we're apparently sharing maps, by the way. I know it doesn't actually have mountains on it, the location of the mountains is just described in the lore I wrote up.

My personal recommendation for mountains: if you want the kind of map you could get in the early 1500s, go for a Carta Marina (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Carta_Marina.jpeg) sort of look and make the mountains basically a big pile of rocks sticking out of the ground. As a general rule of thumb, maps looked kinda shitty until the 17-1800s or so; the realistic look a lot of fantasy maps go for when drawing terrain features is a pretty new thing. If you're making a political map, it could be a good idea to omit geographical features entirely (a la Paradox games.)

Not suggesting you cover the map in reindeer warriors and ridiculous sea monsters, of course; just throwing out a mountain design suggestion.

side note: the ORCADESXXXIII make me deeply uncomfortable for a reason I cannot seem to put into words.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 11, 2018, 11:32:21 pm

Quote from: Tawa on April 11, 2018, 10:32:56 pm

My personal recommendation for mountains: if you want the kind of map you could get in the early 1500s, go for a Carta Marina (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Carta_Marina.jpeg) sort of look and make the mountains basically a big pile of rocks sticking out of the ground. As a general rule of thumb, maps looked kinda shitty until the 17-1800s or so; the realistic look a lot of fantasy maps go for when drawing terrain features is a pretty new thing. If you're making a political map, it could be a good idea to omit geographical features entirely (a la Paradox games.)

My go-to example for fun-looking historical maps is al-Idrisi's Tabula Rogeriana (http://www.bigmapblog.com/maps/map01/YDKRvrsmOFNUnsum.jpg) (warning: large) - the mountains especially have a particularly fun look to them with how he's denoted and colored them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: heydude6 on April 12, 2018, 01:11:16 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 11, 2018, 10:09:44 pm

I had this same problem and decided to just draw my own map. It's hardly professional looking, but at least gives players an idea of where they can go adventuring. Took a few hours over a couple of days to draw the map, colour it, label the towns and add a bit of texture, but I'm no professional artist.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f239/s4079856/Campaign%20Map%20Final%20Half%20Size_zpsig3oiofn.png)

You are way too modest my friend. Perhaps I just speak from inexperience, but that looks incredible. It's lacking in detail in many places, but that texture! It would take me a long time to learn how to draw something like that.

How did you achieve the pastel look?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on April 12, 2018, 01:14:23 am

Color layers and the airbrush tool in photoshop?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: heydude6 on April 12, 2018, 11:40:00 am

Sadly I don’t have photoshop.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on April 12, 2018, 12:12:49 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on April 12, 2018, 11:40:00 am

Sadly I don’t have photoshop.

you could use pastels for a physical map like this (will be time consuming but can look good)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on April 12, 2018, 02:29:25 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on April 12, 2018, 11:40:00 am

Sadly I don’t have photoshop.

Color layers and an airbrush tool in GIMP?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 12, 2018, 08:15:00 pm

Yeah, I used a version of Photoshop for the texture layers, but any image editing program that supports layers and opacity will do the same job. Just google up a texture of your choice (I think I used leather for the water) and dump it into a very opaque layer above the colour. Then just fiddle with the gamma of the image until you get the tone you want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mesa on April 18, 2018, 07:12:06 am

Map discussion? How convenient!
I've got this world (https://imgur.com/3ijlFsJ) I've been hacking away in the past few weeks, for an Open Legend campaign. (After canning my previous soft sci-fi campaign after realizing how much of a craving I have for fantasy, and also because worldbuilding at a galactic scale is TOUGH.)
It's, uh, quite big, and not really campaign-ready yet...though I might be tempted to run a PBF campaign of it, if there's any interest in exploring floating islands 'round here.




I also caved and decided to get into Pathfinder, or at least see what it's about. My time (and Chrome-assigned RAM) lately has been wholly consumed by the Pathfinder SRD, and discussing the pros/cons of each of the Pathfinder roll20 character sheets (the community one is...uh, overwhelming to say the least*, while the Simple and Official variants look a lot easier to wrap one's head around).
Currently in the process of building a brass draconic bloodline half-elf sorcerer, though I'm slightly tempted to opt in for the Dragon Drinker archetype - I don't know if it's any good, but it sounds fun, and goddamn I'm all about that.


* - when a friend who's been playing the game for ~1.5 years tells me they hate that sheet, there's clearly something up. Even though another friend highly recommends using it because of all the things it helps track, even if it's harder to get into upfront...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 18, 2018, 08:15:26 am

So I joined a D&D group. D&D is better than no gaming at all, I suppose.

Let's do a quick rundown of the party makeup that was PMed to me.

Quote from: ohgodwhy

Forge Cleric
Lore Bard
Divine Soul Sorcerer
Mastermind Rogue
Some kind of Paladin
Some kind of Wizard
Monster Hunter Ranger
Way of the Shadow Monk
Celestial Warlock (one of the rotating GMs; he's running next week)
and one more who I forget who she plays (exact wording)

Since there's probably not going to be meaningful RP, I was considering just making a "for the lulz" character. Halflling (or other small race) college of swords bard, lizard person druid who either summons or shapeshifts into various lizards and has the goal of going back to his roots (aka learn to summon/shapeshift into a triceratops), gnome zealot barbarian or some shit.

Ooh, or remake Krod the rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 18, 2018, 08:57:24 am

So, I'm honestly fairly new to the PnP scene. Only ever played a few one-offs and the occasional campaign that lasts for all of two sessions (all done over IRC). It's a hankering I really haven't been able to satisfy, and while I know of one person in my extended social circle who plays, I haven't really had much contact with him beyond the one time he got drunk and said he'd set up a campaign that everyone was invited to (this never happened, due to his fateful return to sobriety). Also, y'know, meatspace groups are scary. I hear you can catch cooties from those.

Played a couple variants of D&D (which I'm comfortable with due to entirely too much time spent in Baldur's Gate and, later, the Incursion roguelike), an ill-fated attempt at WFRP (aren't they all?) which I quite liked, despite never really actually playing, and a teensy one-off experiment with Gamma World, which I immediately fell in love with thanks to the character creation (but which my go-to DM wants nothing to do with).

Does anyone else do IRC games? I thought it worked out fairly well, aside from the difficulty in adapting the game to be without directions and distances, since we were playing without a map.

It also somewhat opens up the international play borders, making it easier to fill out a group (even if I am in something of a troublesome timezone), and, well... I kinda feel like I could use all the help I can get. Heh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 18, 2018, 09:01:24 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 18, 2018, 08:57:24 am

Does anyone else do IRC games? I thought it worked out fairly well, aside from the difficulty in adapting the game to be without directions and distances, since we were playing without a map.

That's where you go theater of the mind! If I were to do another text-based game, I'd choose something without tactical combat. Blades in the Dark, other PbtA games, Shadows Over Sol, Foreign Element, Feng Shui 2, the list goes on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 18, 2018, 09:41:34 am

Incursion!  I see it hasn't updated in a long time, but the source is on Bitbucket.  Definitely the closest roguelike to DND 3.5, and so much potential...

I originally played PNP over IRC, but not DND.  Call of Cthulhu worked best, from what I remember, and  I think World of Darkness would too.  Like Mephisto said, anything that doesn't rely on tactical (grid-based) combat.

I always found RP easier in text, really.  I'm no good at voices, OOC is clearly marked or in a separate channel...  It feels more natural to type out long flowery descriptions than to make everyone listen as I try to adlib them outloud.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 18, 2018, 09:57:08 am

Honestly was never that deep into the RP aspect of things... I mean, of course you're going to want to try and act/make decisions in-character, but everything I've played so far has been fairly laid-back as far as role-playing was concerned (no separate OOC channel, nor forced RP. Didn't have to type out ditties when activating bard song, unless we really wanted to, hehehe).

I was always more attracted to the advanced mechanics and the freedom of choice when looking to solve various problems than to the idea of acting out a specific character. And I may have a problem when it comes to obsessive theorycrafting and chargenning...


Last I checked, Incursion was on... I think version 7Y? One of the forumites picked up the source code and started putting up patched versions on github a long time back, dunno if he stopped or not. But yeah, definitely one of the best roguelikes I've ever played. Love the living world aspect of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on April 18, 2018, 02:25:08 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on April 18, 2018, 08:15:26 am

So I joined a D&D group. D&D is better than no gaming at all, I suppose.

Let's do a quick rundown of the party makeup that was PMed to me.

Quote from: ohgodwhy

Forge Cleric
Lore Bard
Divine Soul Sorcerer
Mastermind Rogue
Some kind of Paladin
Some kind of Wizard
Monster Hunter Ranger
Way of the Shadow Monk
Celestial Warlock (one of the rotating GMs; he's running next week)
and one more who I forget who she plays (exact wording)

Since there's probably not going to be meaningful RP, I was considering just making a "for the lulz" character. Halflling (or other small race) college of swords bard, lizard person druid who either summons or shapeshifts into various lizards and has the goal of going back to his roots (aka learn to summon/shapeshift into a triceratops), gnome zealot barbarian or some shit.

Ooh, or remake Krod the rogue.

A low-intelligence NG Tiefling Paladin of Conquest who didn't actually understand the oath s/he took?
Mounted Combatant goblin Barbarian, specialized in humanoid mounts? (The group is 5E, right?)
If you don't have to stick to Vanilla stuff, Mind Flayer fighter?
Dwarf wizard of divination?
Goliath Cleric of trickery?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 18, 2018, 02:40:09 pm

Be the one guy who remembered to bring a goddamn wagon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on April 19, 2018, 11:51:59 pm

I've decided to scrap not-Europe (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151000.msg7707399#msg7707399) in favor of just making a game set in the real world. I'm confident that I know enough about the early 1600s to not have to hide behind "this is a fictional setting" excuses if I screw something up, I think.

Any system recommendations for a three-musketeers style game? I set serious Pathfinder or D&D considerations aside relatively early after making this decision, but not sure what to use now. I'm leaning toward first-edition 7th Sea with Théah surgically removed, but I'm not 100% sure. It seems alright, and I like the focus on roleplaying, but the insistence on "Heroes" and "Villains" rubs me the wrong way, and after reading the relevant sections of the rulebooks multiple times, I'm still not sure I understand what a "Raise" is or how combat actually works. The skill system also reeks of AD&D "fighters are physically unable to hide" syndrome.

2nd editon exacerbates the "heroes/villains" thing and has terrible injury rules, so definitely not inclined to use that one. Worst comes to worst, I might just rip the guts out of the "Swashbuckling Adventures d20" rulebook (7th Sea's attempt to ride the D&D 3rd Edition train) and use that to homebrew up new Pathfinder stuff, but I'd like to explore other options first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 20, 2018, 06:08:43 am

Burning Wheel could do you fine for that purpose, the time period fits and the lifepath system is the best, although that one also has a fairly bad injury recovery system to contend with (though one that would be pretty easy to houserule away, as Burning Wheel itself recommends for any undesirable parts of its rules, including magic and such).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 20, 2018, 07:04:46 am

Something like Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_info.php?products_id=61356) might work as well, if you're into rules-light.

If you like more crunch, there's All for One: Régime Diabolique (Savage Worlds) and Honor + Intrigue (standalone).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on April 21, 2018, 12:19:54 am

Thanks for the suggestions! I think I'll be going with 7th Sea in the end for this one; I've gotten a better handle on the mechanics following some closer reading, and working on replacing the built-in setting with the real world is turning out to be quite fun. However, I'll definitely keep the games you guys mentioned in mind for other games in the future. Burning Wheel in particular sounds like a really good system; I've been kind of generally looking for something nice and versatile that doesn't require a ton of game balancing skill to modify for original content.

---

On that note: any ideas for real-world "secret societies" for use with 7th Sea? They're not necessarily secret--several of the ones in the base setting are just public-knowledge organizations with elaborate membership requirements--but they act as a kind of adventure hook-meets-friends in high places roleplaying mechanism. I've jotted down a couple paragraphs each for the Dutch East India Company, the Teutonic Order, the Royal French Musketeers, and the Jesuits, but I can't think of anything else. I'm looking for relatively powerful organizations that wouldn't put too much of a burden on characters going off on wild adventures but would make a good way to advance the plot or inject additional drama. Secular or Protestant organizations would be especially appreciated, since I've got 3 majority/exclusively Catholic organizations on the list there. Only other requirement is that it existed as of 1628.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 21, 2018, 02:51:59 am

The lizardmen illuminati, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrWiggles on April 21, 2018, 03:03:13 am

So, I am trying out for an actual play podcast, for Shadowrun podcast. Its called "Without a Net". I would really like to do that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on April 21, 2018, 07:35:24 am

What year is it again? Iirc it was the 30 years war, so intelligence and spies for each of the armies (whoever is important). They wouldn't have names of course, but I'm sure intelligence networks existed.

If you're in Catholic country - Protestant resistance groups, and if you're in Protestant land - Catholic ones. They'd both be in contact with the relevant armies that support them, of course.

I can't remember if the Witch Processes were over by this time, but if they weren't, or you're okay with stretching them, Inquisition. Doesn't have to be Catholic, iirc some of the weirdest, shittiest stuff went down in Protestant German states.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 21, 2018, 09:05:48 am

Quote from: scriver on April 21, 2018, 07:35:24 am

What year is it again? Iirc it was the 30 years war, so intelligence and spies for each of the armies (whoever is important). They wouldn't have names of course, but I'm sure intelligence networks existed.

Tawa said early 1600's, though he's said before that it could be right at the start of the 30 years war or right before.

edit: oop on gender

Quote

I can't remember if the Witch Processes were over by this time, but if they weren't, or you're okay with stretching them, Inquisition. Doesn't have to be Catholic, iirc some of the weirdest, shittiest stuff went down in Protestant German states.

Don't know about Europe, but there was the Salem witch trials in 1692.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 21, 2018, 09:17:56 am

The Unity of the Brethren (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_of_the_Brethren) are pretty good fits for a Protestant secret organization, they were actively persecuted along the course of the Thirty Years' War and everything! You can probably also throw some varieties of Calvinism in there, early Amyraldism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyraldism) kind of fits the specified timeline, for example, but really there's enough Protestant offshoots to populate a setting like this many times over. Don't know what 7th Sea in particular requires, of course, but there's a lot of fun to be had with pulling relatively obscure historical entities and giving them fun conspiratorial motives.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on April 21, 2018, 12:21:56 pm

Thanks for the suggestions!

Quote from: smjjames on April 21, 2018, 09:05:48 am

she

???

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on April 21, 2018, 02:52:56 pm

He probably thinks your picture is in british

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 21, 2018, 03:10:26 pm

Quote from: scriver on April 21, 2018, 02:52:56 pm

He probably thinks your picture is in british

What? That doesn't make any... ohhh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 21, 2018, 09:43:29 pm

Quote from: Tawa on April 21, 2018, 12:21:56 pm

Thanks for the suggestions!

Quote from: smjjames on April 21, 2018, 09:05:48 am

she

???

Quote from: scriver on April 21, 2018, 02:52:56 pm

He probably thinks your picture is in british

Can be hard to tell on the internet, sorry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 21, 2018, 09:47:00 pm

Often you can figure it out by looking at the person's profile. ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 21, 2018, 09:50:14 pm

Or just use the ambiguous they/them.
Like that scrub Shakespeare.

Edit:  Or do like Wizards of the Coast and switch between male and female pronouns in 3.5, supposedly randomly.

I don't recommend this action

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 21, 2018, 09:58:24 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 21, 2018, 09:47:00 pm

Often you can figure it out by looking at the person's profile. ;)

I am a derp. lol

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 21, 2018, 09:59:11 pm

I like all of these approaches, but tend to go for the profile thing first. Because if people are going to define that on their profile I may as well check and respect what they've put there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 22, 2018, 12:52:46 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 21, 2018, 09:50:14 pm

Or do like Wizards of the Coast and switch between male and female pronouns in 3.5, supposedly randomly.

It's actually not always random. Each race and class has an "iconic character" of a specific gender that they use when talking about it. Similarly, the DM is assumed to be female and the players male, when talking about out-of-character interactions. Still, when talking about more general matters, it's pretty random.

Oh, the joys of the Finnish language. The third-person pronoun is one word for humans (regardless of gender), another for non-humans (equivalent to 'it'), and in colloquial speech you can use the non-human word to refer to a human anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 22, 2018, 12:55:08 am

I do recall that the description for the barbarian in pathfinder consistently uses female pronouns for her.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on April 22, 2018, 02:20:40 am

@smjjames: ha ha, it's alright. Just not used to that, is all. Usually, people assume other internet denizens are guys by default :v

---

Finished off the secret societies. There's technically no mechanical game impact, but players can spend a few "hero points" (basically xp used only during character creation) on membership in a secret society, which costs points because of all the benefits being attached to a powerful organization costs you.

After the ones I mentioned, I added the Unity of the Brethren as a kind of catch-all for clandestine Protestant organizations across Europe. Afterward, I added a kind of generalized "Sufi Orders" society with the implication that any player who picks this would select an order for themselves, and a society titled "The Scientists of Europe" representing the interconnected web of early modern alchemists, astronomers, physicists, and various other early scientists. Would've just used the Royal Society, but it's about 32 years too early for that :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 22, 2018, 03:03:48 am

Ooh, maybe throw some Kabbalists in there as well, everyone loves the Kabbalah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 22, 2018, 03:43:54 am

If you're doing secret societies, I suggest using a trick featured in early versions of Pathfinder Society. Each member of a secret society is given a different goal (bring back the signet ring of a certain noble, ensure a target is killed and their remains never found, deliver a letter secretly to a contact) and their actions should be unknown and unobserved by the rest of the group unless they're in the same society. Grant them a bonus to their society's reputation if they succeed, but try to avoid their goals being in conflict; rather, they're each working towards one united goal, but may have extra interests on the side.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Culise on April 22, 2018, 10:28:04 am

Quote from: Tawa on April 22, 2018, 02:20:40 am

After the ones I mentioned, I added the Unity of the Brethren as a kind of catch-all for clandestine Protestant organizations across Europe. Afterward, I added a kind of generalized "Sufi Orders" society with the implication that any player who picks this would select an order for themselves, and a society titled "The Scientists of Europe" representing the interconnected web of early modern alchemists, astronomers, physicists, and various other early scientists. Would've just used the Royal Society, but it's about 32 years too early for that :P

Why not call it the Invisible College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_College)?  It's more a conceit than a real institution, but if you want a secret society of scholars, it fits well.  1628 even comes a mere 3-4 years after the masque that inspired it, meaning the players could even be founders.  First time actually meeting in 1645? Pish posh, that's just the cover story. ^_^

But otherwise, there's the Académie française (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise), or for players in Italy, the brigata dei Crusconi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accademia_della_Crusca).

EDIT:
I was also thinking, if the players operate in the Mediterranean (probable, given Sufi orders), you could include the Knights Hospitaller and the Barbary corsairs as opposing elements.  This is the era in which the Barbary states are at their peak, after all, and their membership includes Muslims, Sephardic Jews, and even Christians, slave-taking, raiding, and generally kicking the European powers as much as they can.  Along the same token, the Netherlands are still young and still fighting for their independence - the Watergeuzen are a perfectly viable option.  Any of the Venetian houses are viable options; trade, intrigue, and gold abound in the City of St. Mark. 

If this is more Baltic than Mediterranean, the Hanseatic League, while weakened badly by the Reformation, still technically exists, and its legacy will stretch on even after its last formal meeting in 1669.  Here, the Dunkirkers are also running around, causing trouble in the North Sea and Channel. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 23, 2018, 10:21:37 am

Well, Tawa said that it's more or less centered around the 30 years war, so, I'd say more Baltic. Incidentially, the Spanish Empire did take part in it, controlled by the Spanish branch of the Habsburgs, and Spain controlled part of Italy at the time. So, the Mediterranean is an equally viable theatre of operations for his players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 23, 2018, 12:04:33 pm

While I too am prone to senseless acts of detail, I have to wonder how much of this historical accuracy will be appreciated, and how much will end up as just so many pearls put before murderhobos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: LordPorkins on April 23, 2018, 12:52:51 pm

Holy Butts. I'm making a Flagellant Cleric, using the Blood Domain from Geek and Sundry. I was looking for spells that were flavorful, and i found Life Transference in Xanathars. 4d8 damage to self? Whatever, I have 18 con at 8th level. And how much healing? TWICE THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE TAKEN. Holy BALLS, this spell is AMAZING! Lets just say it heals for 8d8 (It doesnt, its better then that, but for simplicity lets say 8d8). Thats healing thats like unreachable for 3 more spell levels!

IS it just me or is this spell incredible?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 23, 2018, 01:00:23 pm

Cure Wounds cast with a 3rd level slot heals 3d8 + ability mod. Life Transference heals a net total of 4d8 (looking at the entire party). Life Transference has a 30-foot range and is on the wizard spell list. I'd call it situational, not amazing; I might take it as a wizard, but I think as a cleric I'd stick with Cure Wounds, especially when the cleric is supposed to be one of the tankier members of the party and might not afford to lose the health.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: LordPorkins on April 23, 2018, 02:21:11 pm

Ah. I flavored mine after the Flagellant from Darkest Dungeon, chanting of religious mantras and all. Its good shit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 24, 2018, 12:57:53 am

Half-ogre random encounter stops us in the road to ask three riddles.
"What has a foot but no leg?"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorcerer:  "A snail!"

"Shut up!  But yes.  Okay:  What goes down but never comes up?"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Paladin:  "Your mom" 
"YOU DIE NOW!"

Half-ogre attacks, critfails.  We pull from our critfail deck, he is confused for a round.  We cajole him to calm down, and ask us the third riddle.
"Uh...  Why I so angry?"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Paladin:  "Because we said your mom would blow us."

Our paladin's bleeding out now :P  He'll be fine, but maybe learn- naah, we all loved it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 24, 2018, 01:20:27 am

You know what would be a fun encounter? A bridge troll, but he's only asking for a reasonable toll of two coppers per head for use in maintaining the bridge. Watch as the PCs murder him anyway, then have them come back months later to find the bridge in horrible disrepair.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 24, 2018, 01:54:18 am

I’d have replied with ‘gravity’, but that is a surprising answer from a paladin type.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on April 24, 2018, 02:08:18 am

Well, it's 5th edition
He's level 3, only just swore his oath (vengeance) and as players it's our first time with a paladin character.  Largely we're just really sleepy - one player stopped waking back up, so we're calling it :P

Paladin's player insists I mention our long egg discussion, which was part of establishing the rich culture of Luskan (near Icewind Dale).  They're very Scandinavian, lutefisk and long eggs and ale.

My answer was "rain" - we actually used it while cajoling the ogre, which seemed to calm him down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 24, 2018, 02:20:43 am

Except in certain wind conditions (skyscraper required) but that’d be a smartass halfogre and probably a smartass DM too, heh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 24, 2018, 04:15:17 am

Since it was a random encounter and not a very smart half-ogre, I don't think they were supposed to be very hard riddles. I can think of several things with feet but no legs, and things that go down but not up, and things that make half-ogres angry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 24, 2018, 05:15:12 am

Random NPC stops party member in middle of market: "Excuse me sir, have you seen my ring of invisibility?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 24, 2018, 05:25:05 am

I should never be allowed to DM. For a long time I've had the idea for the party to come across a magical garment made by an almighty but fairly insane mage, which is revealed to be a leather jerkin +5 vs. landsharks.

And thus the saga of the world's first bulette-proof vest would begin in earnest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on April 24, 2018, 06:09:48 am

Protects very nicely against bullettes, except along the limbs or head, or at point-blank range!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 24, 2018, 07:46:28 am

First session with the new group was last night. I think they were unsure about having a LE kobold in the party but I think I won them over in the first encounter.

We're in a shitty "fort" (read: overturned wagon that's been modified to be more fort-like). There's a "banner" (if I'm being generous) flying over it reading "Dibs". We find some goblins in a hole under the wagon, their "throne room," as it were.

Barbarian rages and cuts a goblin in half. I run in, spy the apparent leader, and yell "your banner is dumb and you should feel bad!" (vicious mockery).

The goblin gets pissed off and grapples me.

Shenanigans happen and my turn rolls around again. "I cower and yell 'don't hurt me!'" (kobold racial feature).

Spoiler: explanation no one cares about (click to show/hide)

The head goblin's name was Dib. He was kicked out of his clan for wrasslin too much instead of working, hence the preference for grappling. No, these aren't lucha goblins, just wrasslers. That would have been amazing, though.

We befriended him after he challenged one of us to an arm-wrestling competition (wat.xvg). We went and cleared out his clan with his help. The little bastard kill-stole the bugbear leader from us. We killed a few of his brethren but the rest were frightened by all of this and declared him the new leader.

My LE act for the session done. He's not fit to lead and I imagine this will result in their deaths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 24, 2018, 08:03:52 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 24, 2018, 05:25:05 am

I should never be allowed to DM. For a long time I've had the idea for the party to come across a magical garment made by an almighty but fairly insane mage, which is revealed to be a leather jerkin +5 vs. landsharks.

And thus the saga of the world's first bulette-proof vest would begin in earnest.

Trouble is that it can also be pronounced "boo-LAY" (https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg093.pdf) (p. 25).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 24, 2018, 08:33:01 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2018, 08:03:52 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 24, 2018, 05:25:05 am

I should never be allowed to DM. For a long time I've had the idea for the party to come across a magical garment made by an almighty but fairly insane mage, which is revealed to be a leather jerkin +5 vs. landsharks.

And thus the saga of the world's first bulette-proof vest would begin in earnest.

Trouble is that it can also be pronounced "boo-LAY" (https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg093.pdf) (p. 25).

What if the mage has split Russian/French personalities? Boo-LET (bonus points if you adopt a Heavy accent) and boo-LAY (bonus points if you do an offensive Spy accent) are just fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 24, 2018, 08:43:32 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2018, 08:03:52 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 24, 2018, 05:25:05 am

I should never be allowed to DM. For a long time I've had the idea for the party to come across a magical garment made by an almighty but fairly insane mage, which is revealed to be a leather jerkin +5 vs. landsharks.

And thus the saga of the world's first bulette-proof vest would begin in earnest.

Trouble is that it can also be pronounced "boo-LAY" (https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg093.pdf) (p. 25).

Sure, if you really want to(boo-LAY boo tu le faire?). But it's worth noting that he prefaces the whole thing by saying that there's no "correct" way of pronouncing something, and then goes on to mangle Acheron, Cabalist and Ixitxichitl. We can of course say that Acheron is in no way related to the Greek-origin word of the same spelling, and that Ixitxachitl doesn't need to follow its nahuatl inspiration because it's a made-up asshole flap-flap, but cabalist?

And the Drow are apparently also the Dro. Truly, I have learned many things today!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on April 24, 2018, 09:11:56 am

Got to have a proper lizardfolk moment in our most recent session. Was crawling on a roof above a jail during a jailbreak, knocked on the door and then hauled the guy who answered onto the roof by his head and proceeded to bite him to death over the next two turns as his buddies tried to climb onto the roof and shoot at me, then threw the body down at them as our party barbarian started to smack two of them with his axe, grabbed a guy who was trying to climb up to get at me and grappled/bit him until he died while clinging to the wall with spider climb, then leapt off the roof and bore one of the last few guys to the ground and started trying to maul him.

When the remaining guards and the warden of the prison came outside to back up their now dead friends I hit the barbarian with invisibility, told him to run, then intimidated the warden into not pursuing me when he asked what the hell I did to his men by answering 'I ate them,' then dragged the last guy we killed off to the side while staring at them.

It was nice to switch from being a semi silly character to going full horror movie monster for a bit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on April 25, 2018, 02:17:42 pm

Now that I think of it, some classical mythology sounds kind of like a GM railroading.

Hercules:I don't want to be a hero, I just want to marry this woman and raise some kids.
GM:make a will save.
Herc:natural 1...
GM:Juno takes control of your mind, forcing you to kill your wife and children. For this, you are being forced to do 12 labors during twelve years of slavery.
Herc:...

Odysseus:I guess, now that the war is over, I'll just sail home.
GM:As you sail home, your stores of food run out. Your sailors disembark on an island you found, in order to find additional provisions, and do not return.
Ody:I guess, I disembark, myself, and find out what killed them.
GM:you see a cyclops.
Ody:I kill it.
-Battle Scene.-
I escape from the cyclops, taking advantage of its now blind eye, and we sail off while I insult him.
GM:Okay. But wait a minute. That cyclops has contacted his father, Neptune, and Neptune has caused you to lose your way. Three months later...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on April 25, 2018, 09:00:04 pm

Thank you for the suggestions, everyone! I have at long last finished the mechanics-based section and stripped out every trace of the base game setting. The hardest part was probably the bit where I spent 4 or 5 days reading about 17th-century HEMA in an effort to translate the various national styles of fencing to the fencing school gameplay mechanics. I've taken a few liberties--namely, French fencing has certain aspects and authors overemphasized, because from what I understand, French fencing was very similar to Italian fencing until the latter half of the century. Additionally, for Arabic and Turkish fencing, I've adapted furusiyya as a sort of jack-of-all-trades fighting style, de-emphasizing horseback fighting some to fit the  game better. The Nordics and Russians don't have styles, which is more or less fitting with the base game setting (where Not Russia has no fencing school and Not Scandinavia is simultaneously the Netherlands and also late-era Vikings.)

My favorite fencing mechanic that I came up with was giving the Dutch fencing style, based on Gérard Thibault d'Anvers' Academie de l'Espée (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Thibault_d%27Anvers), an ability where you're more likely to hit your opponent the better your character is at math.

I also wrote up a gigantic language chart listing not only the various languages one's characters may speak but how many skill points you need to learn other languages based on your first language. (Russian got the short end of the stick :v) Had to include "miscellaneous" columns clarifying that other languages exist but I didn't have the space to put them on the chart--I had room for the big ones (French, English, German, etc.) but I had to squeeze a few things together for simplicity's sake (mutually intelligible or partially mutually intelligible languages, e.g. Portuguese/Spanish/Catalan, Swedish/Danish/Norwegian, Russian/Belorussian/Ukrainian, are combined into single languages, for example, and I've got a list of other possible languages that had to go unlisted entirely.)

Now I only have to write a few dozen pages about European history and 17th-century society, ha. The book does a kind of paint-by-numbers thing where they spend 4 pages on the game world's history, then devotes 1-3 pages each to the seven nations, but since there are significantly more than 7 nations in Europe, a lengthy, non-imaginary history, and since I'm a history major, I'm thinking I'll go a bit more in-depth for any players who aren't familiar with the period. I think I'll put down a more or less chronological account of European history, starting in England and France at the close of the Hundred Years' War, then jumping about to discuss topics like Columbus' voyage, the Protestant Reformation, the dissolution of the Kalmar Union, the formation of Poland-Lithuania, the rise of the Ottoman Empire, the Tudor succession struggles, the Schmalkaldic War and the Peace of Augsburg, and so on until the "current" topics, like the 30 Years' War, the Polish-Swedish War, the conflicts of Charles I with Parliament, and the like. The latter of these sections will probably be organized by region or country (e.g. British Isles section, Central Europe section, Baltic Sea section, etc.) and describe not only the larger political picture but society and everyday life in these places.

Thinking of a more adventurous sort of plot than the one I'd originally envisioned, probably one set outside Germany but where the players definitely feel the effects of what's happening there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on April 26, 2018, 10:11:56 am

Don't forget any relevant topics relating to the colonization of the Americas if the players encounter anything relevant, even if they don't actually go to the Americas. Spain was already in the Carribean for a century and Jamestown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamestown,_Virginia) was 11 years old by the time the 30 years war(s) rolled around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on April 26, 2018, 11:52:42 am

so I'm going to be DMing for a group of friends that have never played D&D before, I can't lend them my copy of the player's hand book since they live in different states. any tips?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 26, 2018, 12:07:22 pm

If their local libraries are nice, have them take a look. Mine has some D&D books.

Wow, just double-checked. Mine has books stretching all the way back to AD&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 26, 2018, 12:23:16 pm

Quote from: deathpunch578 on April 26, 2018, 11:52:42 am

so I'm going to be DMing for a group of friends that have never played D&D before, I can't lend them my copy of the player's hand book since they live in different states. any tips?

Tell them to google '[edition number] srd'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 30, 2018, 09:04:18 am

(https://i.imgur.com/C2eNkhul.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/C2eNkhu.jpg)

My last bookcase self-destructed. It probably committed seppuku.

After a few months of just having my books covering the floor of my bedroom, I did this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on April 30, 2018, 09:14:46 am

Nice collection! Mine runs more towards minis, which I keep in a big plastic tub for easy transport. I typically keep PDF files of key books and use a tablet or laptop to access them at games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on April 30, 2018, 09:35:55 am

I don't game enough to collect minis. I mostly just collect books and imagine playing, occasionally doing a bit of solo gaming with a GM emulator.

Now that I'm in a 5e game, however, I'm doing a bit more mini collecting. My current obsession is finding something that looks vaguely like a kobold bard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on April 30, 2018, 02:14:52 pm

I personally like to use Legos for minis, but I will admit it gets hard to get ones that fit more nonstandard races like kobolds and dragonborn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 30, 2018, 02:44:47 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on April 30, 2018, 02:14:52 pm

I personally like to use Legos for minis, but I will admit it gets hard to get ones that fit more nonstandard races like kobolds and dragonborn.

If a dude can recreate all the stories of the Bible in LEGO, I'm pretty sure you can finagle some kobolds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on April 30, 2018, 02:49:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 30, 2018, 02:44:47 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on April 30, 2018, 02:14:52 pm

I personally like to use Legos for minis, but I will admit it gets hard to get ones that fit more nonstandard races like kobolds and dragonborn.

If a dude can recreate all the stories of the Bible in LEGO, I'm pretty sure you can finagle some kobolds.

The Bible surprisingly had a lot more humans than it had kobolds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on April 30, 2018, 02:52:55 pm

Which is why it is obviously an inferior source book to DnD.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on April 30, 2018, 03:00:14 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on April 30, 2018, 02:49:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 30, 2018, 02:44:47 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on April 30, 2018, 02:14:52 pm

I personally like to use Legos for minis, but I will admit it gets hard to get ones that fit more nonstandard races like kobolds and dragonborn.

If a dude can recreate all the stories of the Bible in LEGO, I'm pretty sure you can finagle some kobolds.

The Bible surprisingly had a lot more humans than it had kobolds.

Also a beast with seven heads and ten horns, angels, Satan, Job, locusts with crowns, and whatever Goliath's kind are to be called.

Really though, I'm just impressed with how the guy did toddlers and babies.

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 30, 2018, 02:52:55 pm

Which is why it is obviously an inferior source book to DnD.

Yeah, really. Talk about RAW vs. RAI...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on May 01, 2018, 05:49:39 am

And credit where credit's due, a fair few cleric spells got cribbed from that sourcebook. Raise Dead, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Cure Disease, Water Walk...

I picked up a ton of my plastic minis from eBay, just buying up bulk grab-bags of other people's duplicates. I mostly use them these days for player character tokens if my players don't have their own minis to use. For monsters, I highly recommend the Pathfinder series of cardboard printed minis that come with slotted bases. I have their first and second bestiary, their NPC and monster codex, and the summon monster series of minis, plus the beginner box too. Between all this I can usually find any monster or enemy NPC that's close enough to the encounter to give the players a visual representation of what they're fighting.

Then again, I pretty much exclusively play in meatspace groups rather than online, which I'm told is fairly popular.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 01, 2018, 05:55:55 am

I am torn.. I live so far out in the boonies, in hickville. I would love to play in meatspace, but know nobody in meatspace who plays.

The best I could do would be to drive 40+minutes to the major town, and hit up one of the game stores; but that is how you get the "cliche" players.

RE: Cardboard Minis

This gives me an idea.  You can purchase card stock in bulk from walmart, and most people have printers.  I bet I could make a simple blank "All-Paper" version of those slotted mini cards, for DIY "On the cheap" specials.

Anyone up for me to attempt it? (I have fancy CAD software for doing sheetmetal. Paper is just sheet metal without the metal.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 01, 2018, 06:08:57 am

Quote from: wierd on May 01, 2018, 05:55:55 am

I am torn.. I live so far out in the boonies, in hickville. I would love to play in meatspace, but know nobody in meatspace who plays.

The best I could do would be to drive 40+minutes to the major town, and hit up one of the game stores; but that is how you get the "cliche" players.

The best way to get non-cliche players for D&D is to get people who don't normally play D&D, generally speaking. If you know cool people who like you, no harm in asking them if they'd be into a game, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 06:27:54 am

Anyone here who's watched Stranger Things? Anyone else who got a bit exasperated with the DnD elements portrayed therein?

DM: "The party of level two heroes continues down the dungeon corridor... Suddenly, Demogorgon!"

Party: *Gasp!*

Lvl2 Wizard: "I cast fireball!"

DM: "Roll to succeed at casting a spell"

Lvl2 Wizard: *rolls dice off table*

DM: "I saw the score before the dice fell off; you have succeeded at casting fireball. Demogorgon is defeated, and you have saved your party"

Lvl2 Wizard: *resolute pride*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 01, 2018, 06:57:42 am

Two sessions in, I'm thinking of dropping the game and finding another. We're up to nine PCs in the group. It's going to rise to 11 in two weeks. The other group is also at nine. So two DMs, 20 players.

Quote from: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 06:27:54 am

Anyone here who's watched Stranger Things? Anyone else who got a bit exasperated with the DnD elements portrayed therein?

Nah, they're 12/13. When you just get a game, don't really fully learn the rules, and just go out with the goal of doing cool shit with friends, that's what happens. The DM also has to teach himself to DM in these cases.

There are stories all over the place from the AD&D days like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on May 01, 2018, 10:20:38 am

Yeah, I figured the Stranger Things AD&D scenes are basically a bunch of teen/preteen boys fudging along with a bunch of houserules. Still, they've got mad sets of minis for a gang of broke kids, though their tactical maps could use a bit more detail.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 01, 2018, 11:04:17 am

Could be they spent all their money on the Demogorgon miniature, and thus don't have any other enemies the players could fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 01, 2018, 11:40:26 am

Ok, I modeled up a flat pattern for a blank solid-cardstock mini.
(Base is 1" dia, tile is 1"x.5" Cardstock assumed to be .010" thick.)

A whole bunch of these (Initial test fit of flat pattern shows 18) should fit on 8.5" x 11" cardstock.

Spoiler: Here it is all folded up in my CAD software (click to show/hide)

(https://s14.postimg.cc/p2s7pfcv5/cardstock_mini.jpg)

I am gonna keep this around, (should I EVER get a meatspace group...) but I can totally provide the flat pattern as an svg.

The idea here is that you can use inkscape or whatever to put pretty much anything you could ever want onto these and use them for monsters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 11:44:00 am

What makes these better than just printing front and back views of the monster, one inverted over the other, and folding them into a triangular prism? Because that's always what I've done.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 01, 2018, 11:47:41 am

These need less tape, and would have more image area per paper used? (two small tabs of doublestick cellotape, get pretty much the whole 1x.5 rectangle)

I also added provisions for stiffening beads, if you feel inclined. (Use a credit card to push into the folded edge to invert it into a stiffener. That will keep the tile from being floppy.)

--

EDIT:
Meh, misunderstood, Had to think about what you wrote.  These would likely resist getting blown around/accidentally scooted better than a triangular prism shaped one would. They have a larger base area to tile height ratio.

Jimmy mentioned the Pathfinder cardboard minis.
(http://www.gardenninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Pathfinder-1.jpg)

this is meant to be the poor man's version.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 01, 2018, 11:49:24 am

Quote from: Trekkin on May 01, 2018, 11:44:00 am

What makes these better than just printing front and back views of the monster, one inverted over the other, and folding them into a triangular prism? Because that's always what I've done.

I suppose that works if you don't have much cash and do have a drawing talent and/or you like to draw or make art. Definetly has the flexibility of not having to find appropriate minis.

Quote from: wierd on May 01, 2018, 11:47:41 am

These need less tape, and would have more image area per paper used? (two small tabs of doublestick cellotape, get pretty much the whole 1x.5 rectangle)

I also added provisions for stiffening beads, if you feel inclined. (Use a credit card to push into the folded edge to invert it into a stiffener. That will keep the tile from being floppy.)

Everybody has their preferred methods I suppose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 01, 2018, 12:12:22 pm

*shrug*

If anyone is inclined, here's the .svg (https://drive.google.com/open?id=13cDeIgUtEFzJs3nUrGjM9K0zMMNF75bY) with 18 per sheet.

Google drive is crappy and all, I know, but .svg is an odd format, so image hosting is no-go. Inkscape can open the .svg just fine. Put whatever artwork on, print, cut, and fold. (Yes, I see that the flat patterns look kinda phallic. It was not intentional. The little ovals are where to press against the folded edge with a credit card to make a stiffener)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Twinwolf on May 06, 2018, 12:34:24 pm

So, just ran my first session of DnD 5e. Not the first time I've run a tabletop game or done it live,  but the first time it was with voice and with DnD. It went surprisingly well, although a couple people were like half an hour late because timezones are evil.

Not starting with anything too complex. A group of adventurers are hired to recover a shipment of valuables robbed from a merchant guild. They go to the hideout, which I decided to make an old dwarven outpost - which of course means something based on the layouts common to DF. I think I overestimated enemy difficulty so it was a bit easy on them, but it's better than murdering them out the gate. There was a trade depot outside that they got some silver out of, they barely managed to avoid the cage traps in front, and ran into a danger room adjacent to the barracks. They're resting in the mass-dormitory, waiting for the bandit leader to come back to ambush them.

It's been fun, and the players seemed to be having fun. One of them wasn't able to make it but it'll be fairly easy to slot them in next session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 07, 2018, 12:33:38 am

Cool, that sounds like an awesome introduction to both D&D and DF.  I'm glad you and your players had fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrWiggles on May 08, 2018, 05:32:18 pm

So, I am trying out for an actual play podcast for shadowrun, called 'Without a Net'.
https://withoutanetpod.podbean.com/
And the audition game is going to be streamed around 5:30pm PST Wednesday 5/9/18.

I'll be playing the voodo mage, Mr. Purple.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 09, 2018, 07:31:04 am

Quote from: MrWiggles on May 08, 2018, 05:32:18 pm

So, I am trying out for an actual play podcast for shadowrun, called 'Without a Net'.

That's cool. It's something I've sort of wanted to do for a while.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 09, 2018, 12:54:40 pm

Like you would a forest, but with longer brush strokes and darker.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on May 09, 2018, 05:01:23 pm

Shading?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 09, 2018, 05:04:49 pm

Quote from: greatorder on May 09, 2018, 04:10:41 pm

OK, how do I do a forest, and without colour. My map's going to be in greyscale since I lack a particularly large assortment of coloured pencils and I can't draw for shit online.

There's quite a few ways, this (http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/stonegiant96/media/bWVkaWFJZDoxOTQyNzc4NA==/?ref=) is an okay reference if you want to make a reasonably simple and legible map, which is ultimately what you want in a game. Not sure if there's much more to say beyond "use lots of circly things".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on May 12, 2018, 08:35:54 am

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 09, 2018, 05:04:49 pm

Quote from: greatorder on May 09, 2018, 04:10:41 pm

OK, how do I do a forest, and without colour. My map's going to be in greyscale since I lack a particularly large assortment of coloured pencils and I can't draw for shit online.

There's quite a few ways, this (http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/stonegiant96/media/bWVkaWFJZDoxOTQyNzc4NA==/?ref=) is an okay reference if you want to make a reasonably simple and legible map, which is ultimately what you want in a game. Not sure if there's much more to say beyond "use lots of circly things".

Whatever that is, it isn't loading.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 12, 2018, 09:06:11 am

Has anyone tried making maps via ingame editors for other games? I think the editors for things like Age of Wonders (http://aow.heavengames.com/scenariodesign/terraintypes.shtml) or Civilization (https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/8w8EAawNBKwhkdBWAzLsjA-650-80.jpg) seem like they'd be able to quickly get you a reasonably detailed and pretty map that you could snap a screenshot of and use as a world for a campaign, maybe with a bit of modification to add place/region names or whatnot.

Even lets you make alterations like ruins or blasted terrain to show off the unfolding events in the story, hehe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 12, 2018, 09:21:39 am

Not I, but we did something vaguely similar back in my old college group. We sat down to a two-session game of Dawn of Worlds, and used the map and races we created in that as the world map and player races for our next game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: BlackFlyme on May 12, 2018, 10:15:19 pm

Anyone ever have an encounter subverted; accidentally or otherwise?

The boss we fought tonight was supposed to resurrect as some sort of undead once they dropped to -1, but nonlethal meant they just got knocked unconscious instead. Rather thankfully, as two players were blind and one was outright dead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 12, 2018, 10:39:50 pm

The riddle-ogre I mentioned earlier sorta came back, in that we rolled him again why traveling.  So a different ogre arrived, loudly lamenting the loss of his brother, before challenging us.

Once again we failed on the last question, arguably due to a technicality, and we had to slay this riddle-ogre too.
...Except that I chose to do nonlethal damage, and landed the KO.  I promised to take first watch, and watch the ogre.

He eventually stood up with much confusion.  I told him that our answer was technically correct (it was), and that he should leave with honor.  He hesitated, then left.

A lot more happened, but I feel good about that choice.
(our paladin *really* wanted to just stab him until he stopped breathing)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 13, 2018, 12:07:48 am

What was the question and the answer you gave?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on May 13, 2018, 04:38:30 am

Quote from: BlackFlyme on May 12, 2018, 10:15:19 pm

Anyone ever have an encounter subverted; accidentally or otherwise?

The boss we fought tonight was supposed to resurrect as some sort of undead once they dropped to -1, but nonlethal meant they just got knocked unconscious instead. Rather thankfully, as two players were blind and one was outright dead.

I had this happen with a boss encounter. The (heavily pregnant) high priestess cultist of Lamashtu was supposed to sacrifice their life and that of their unborn children to their god at the end of the fight in order to power a summoning ritual to bring forth a big bad demon. However, my group decided to deal her nonlethal damage to simply knock her out instead of killing her. Luckily one of my players decided to stab her unconscious body right in her big belly, upon which I had her spirit rise as a vengeful ghost, complete the summoning, and get grabbed and consumed by a demonic arm that shot out of her belly wound, then ripped her open from the inside as it emerged into the room.

Fun times!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Yoink on May 13, 2018, 02:26:31 pm

Quote from: deathpunch578 on December 11, 2017, 03:20:39 pm

I'm sure that at this point the GM and me are going to make a half-troll from scratch.

Sounds hawt. And kinda painful.   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on May 14, 2018, 12:37:25 pm

Quote from: Yoink on May 13, 2018, 02:26:31 pm

Quote from: deathpunch578 on December 11, 2017, 03:20:39 pm

I'm sure that at this point the GM and me are going to make a half-troll from scratch.

Sounds hawt. And kinda painful.   

finished that campaign a few months ago, it was really fun playing as a half-troll bard

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Yoink on May 14, 2018, 02:31:49 pm

...Man, I'd had the tab with that unfinished reply open for a really long time.
Glad the campaign went well!   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Liber celi on May 15, 2018, 05:32:07 am

Stuff I put in dungeons and potato celars and in my LotFP campaign

If any of my players stumble over this: turn around, fools

Spoiler: HAMELUNG (click to show/hide)

Sword. The pommel is a child's head in bronze. The crossguard ends in two screaming rat heads (in steel covered with bronze). Its name is engraved in the blade. Grants +1 DEX mod while wielded. Can automatically hit and kill 1 HP creatures, as many as the bearer's level.
Attracts 1 rat per day it has been in the possession of the party. The rats will follow the party. When killed, the ras will replaced the next morning. This world has so many rats, you can never drown them all. At 10 rats it's time to start rolling saves vs. disease. At 120 you're followed by a fur carpet crawling with parasites and few will want to talk to you.
When the party is completely killed, the rats will attempt to carry off the sword to the place where it was found.
If the bearer ever cheats a commoner out of their rightful pay, the weapon is stuck to their hand and you get to replace "rats" with "children" in the above text. Have fun.

Spoiler: Black-Glove (click to show/hide)

A silver ring. Found on the pommel of a dagger made entirely from an unknown, jet-black metal. It's secured there with a bit of golden wire but may be pulled off.
The black metal blade is very sharp and indestructible by earthly means. Therefore it receives +1 to hit chainmail, +2 to hit and damage vs. plate.
If the ring is ever removed from the dagger, the weapon instantly turns into a floppy, roughly dagger-shaped piece of flesh and broken bones. (Putting the ring back on turns flesh to metal again, but now the dagger is blunt, bent and useless.)
If the ring is worn it will turn the wearer's hand and wrist into animated, black, indestructible metal. This counts as a shield, gives you a better punch attack, allows you to coat your hand in acid before you give the mayor a high-five and so on.
The ring is very much not indestructible. If it's destroyed, the bearer's hand (or the dagger) will not turn to flesh. The hand will lose its magic mobility though, making it about as useful as an indestructible stump.
If the bearer's arm is ever severed behind the metal, ring or no, the metal hand will scurry off like a spider, very much afraid that legendary dwarves will again forge it into a weapon.

Spoiler: Eye of the Gallow-god (click to show/hide)

A noose of coarse rope, the size of an eye. Looking through it upon a living creature allows one to see the manifold potential wounds that this creature might suffer, but also fills the looker with a deep indifference and alienation to their own well-being. The player learns the current hit points of the creature. For the rest of the day, however, the player doesn't know the hit points of their own character. The Referee will have to roll all damage in secret and keep book.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on May 15, 2018, 06:03:55 am

Ooh, are we doing custom magic items?

Spoiler: Bedroll of Deep Slumber (click to show/hide)

Whenever a living creature falls asleep on this item, the bedroll's magic protects the sleeper from any and all harm. Until they would normally awaken (typically 8 hours) the sleeping creature is immune to damage, suffocation, extremes of temperature, or any magical effect that includes them as a target, be it beneficial or harmful. Ongoing effects, such as curses, poison or disease have their duration temporarily suspended for the duration of use. During this time, the wearer automatically fails any check to perceive their surroundings or wake up until their rest is complete, and their body, whilst immune to harm, can be physically moved to a location that might prove hazardous when they awake. This item may be used by the same creature no more than once every 24 hours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 15, 2018, 06:15:34 am

Quote from: Liber celi on May 15, 2018, 05:32:07 am

Stuff I put in dungeons and potato celars and in my LotFP campaign

If any of my players stumble over this: turn around, fools

Spoiler: HAMELUNG (click to show/hide)

Sword. The pommel is a child's head in bronze. The crossguard ends in two screaming rat heads (in steel covered with bronze). Its name is engraved in the blade. Grants +1 DEX mod while wielded. Can automatically hit and kill 1 HP creatures, as many as the bearer's level.
Attracts 1 rat per day it has been in the possession of the party. The rats will follow the party. When killed, the ras will replaced the next morning. This world has so many rats, you can never drown them all. At 10 rats it's time to start rolling saves vs. disease. At 120 you're followed by a fur carpet crawling with parasites and few will want to talk to you.
When the party is completely killed, the rats will attempt to carry off the sword to the place where it was found.
If the bearer ever cheats a commoner out of their rightful pay, the weapon is stuck to their hand and you get to replace "rats" with "children" in the above text. Have fun.

Spoiler: Black-Glove (click to show/hide)

A silver ring. Found on the pommel of a dagger made entirely from an unknown, jet-black metal. It's secured there with a bit of golden wire but may be pulled off.
The black metal blade is very sharp and indestructible by earthly means. Therefore it receives +1 to hit chainmail, +2 to hit and damage vs. plate.
If the ring is ever removed from the dagger, the weapon instantly turns into a floppy, roughly dagger-shaped piece of flesh and broken bones. (Putting the ring back on turns flesh to metal again, but now the dagger is blunt, bent and useless.)
If the ring is worn it will turn the wearer's hand and wrist into animated, black, indestructible metal. This counts as a shield, gives you a better punch attack, allows you to coat your hand in acid before you give the mayor a high-five and so on.
The ring is very much not indestructible. If it's destroyed, the bearer's hand (or the dagger) will not turn to flesh. The hand will lose its magic mobility though, making it about as useful as an indestructible stump.
If the bearer's arm is ever severed behind the metal, ring or no, the metal hand will scurry off like a spider, very much afraid that legendary dwarves will again forge it into a weapon.

Spoiler: Eye of the Gallow-god (click to show/hide)

A noose of coarse rope, the size of an eye. Looking through it upon a living creature allows one to see the manifold potential wounds that this creature might suffer, but also fills the looker with a deep indifference and alienation to their own well-being. The player learns the current hit points of the creature. For the rest of the day, however, the player doesn't know the hit points of their own character. The Referee will have to roll all damage in secret and keep book.

I feel like that last one is... Kinda lackluster. Getting the current hitpoints of something is generally only going to be situationally useful at best, and all depending on how the downside is handled, it's either a non-issue or prohibitively debilitating.

I also feel like the rats-children caveat could be hilariously exploited, say, by someone with a very high level of diplomacy. Presumably the children are the snot-nosed little disease magnets they usually are, and you still have to make saving throws.

Black-glove sounds fun, but I have to wonder how it works with polymorphing. Say, refolding your indestructible skin to now encapsulate the ring, protecting it. Or making your arm monstrously large and then just smacking the biggest bitches with your pimp hand of blackest night.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 15, 2018, 06:17:50 am

HAMELUNG: You can only ever autohit as many creatures as your level with the sword, ever?

Bedroll of Deep Slumber: Nothing says you can’t pull them out of the bedroll and then stab them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 15, 2018, 06:22:45 am

I feel like we need more artifacts like Lilarcor. Like, a grand and powerful enchanted talking sword, but while in your possession it automatically makes some diplomacy checks on behalf of the party.

The sword is very bad at diplomacy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on May 15, 2018, 06:42:18 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 15, 2018, 06:17:50 am

Bedroll of Deep Slumber: Nothing says you can’t pull them out of the bedroll and then stab them.

Sure it does. When they fall asleep on the bedroll, they're immune to harm for 8 hours. Getting moved off the bedroll, fired out of a cannon and falling into an active volcano doesn't change that. So long as you fall asleep on the bedroll, you gain its benefits. What happens after you're asleep is the !!FUN!! part.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 15, 2018, 07:25:53 am

That... seems dumb.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 15, 2018, 08:30:02 am

I see this being abused in ways you dont expect nor want Jimmy.

Spoiler: Not for the faint of heart, horrible things inside, you are warned. (click to show/hide)

Take for instance, it being part of a rape kit. Since the person sleeping on it cannot be roused, and there is a full 8 hours of sleep time basically assured, it is like magical date rape drug.  Unless of course, the magic of its protection also doubles as a super chastity belt of some kind.

Other, less horrible uses might include
"Oh fuck, he's bleeding out and will die in a few turns!"
"Shove him in the sleeping bag!"
"What?"
"Shove him in the sleeping bag, then cast sleep on him!"
"Whaa?"
"We then have 8 guaranteed hours to lug his stupid lumbering ass back to town with and to haggle for a price with the healer."
"Oh!"

Or even

"We need a distraction!"
"---I Got it! We put the bard in the sleeping bag, then make him drink sleeping potion, then put him in the middle of the room. We release the monsters behind the grate, and spam area effect spells through the door until they all die horribly. The bag will keep the bard perfectly safe. We have 8 hours time to do the nuking with!"
"AWESOME!!"

And then of course--

Stupid rope trick + Sleeping bag + self-inflicted sleep spell == Evade detection for 8 solid hours, no risk of suffocation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 15, 2018, 08:56:34 am

I'd think maybe a DM of Jimmy's caliber would stop the players before they got to 'rape kit', but yeah, it definetly sounded like a cryochamber or stasis chamber in the whole idea of everything being suspended for a time. Also, who's to say that the player can't prolong their sleep?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 15, 2018, 09:08:13 am

Quote from: wierd on May 15, 2018, 08:30:02 am

<implies bards are useless>

What is this buffoonery? You need to see my kobard in action before making such claims.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on May 15, 2018, 09:15:03 am

Yeah, seriously. Bards have never been below high-medium tier, at least in DnD. If this is 5E, you are using the most powerful class as bait...
Shouldn't the fighter be the bait, considering he's pretty much doing what he always does, tanking?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on May 15, 2018, 10:32:13 am

I'd happily let my players draw mustaches or phallic objects on a sleeping character's face, but if the topic of involuntary sex came up, I'd warn them OOC that that sort of behavior isn't tolerated at my table, and will result in me ending either their character or the session, depending on the situation. If needed, I'd state that the character is immune to penetration of any kind as an extension of the "immune to harm" clause, but honestly I trust my players not to even go there. We're all adults, even if we sometimes don't act like it.

As for prolonging sleep, there's a certain point at which people stop sleeping and are simply conscious but resting instead, which I'd call at typically 8 hours per the normal resting rules for most games. I personally welcome creative uses of the item, but if you try to pair it with a sleeping spell, the target becomes immune to the spell per the item's effect, which means it would fail to work. Tossing unconscious players into monster pits as bait is fine with me though, especially when the beasts decide to drag the meat popsicle back into their den for later.

Anyhow, let's get some new items created!

Spoiler: Catskin Vest (click to show/hide)

This slim-fitting garment is sewn from the hide of a large feline. Nine tiger eye gemstones adorn the vest's collar when created, and a clasp in the shape of a silver claw holds the vest shut. The vest grants the wearer confidence that there's more than one way to arrive at a solution. Once per day, the wearer may reroll an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw as an immediate action; if so, the second result must be taken, even if it’s lower. Should the wearer be slain, the vest heals the wearer for 5d8+9 points of damage as an immediate action as per the breath of life spell and one of the nine gemstones turns black. For each black gemstone the vest bears, the wearer gains a cumulative -1 luck penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 15, 2018, 11:31:45 am

What makes you think I implied bards are useless?

What if the goal is to get the monster to drag home more than it can chew? (EG, the monster knows how to get to its lair better than the party does. So, put him in the bag. Monster is distracted by the "sleeping meal", and drags it home. Bard wakes up, commences to dish out whoop ass. Especially if the bard has some analog of magic door to get back to the entrance with.)

The part that is DM aggravating is that all the traps in the labyrinth could be evaded this way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 15, 2018, 12:03:36 pm

Quote from: wierd on May 15, 2018, 11:31:45 am

What makes you think I implied bards are useless?

What if the goal is to get the monster to drag home more than it can chew?

I was just shitting around.

As for the second point, there's this bit from the post I responded to.

Quote

We release the monsters behind the grate, and spam area effect spells through the door until they all die horribly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 15, 2018, 12:07:53 pm

Not a dig at bards being useless; It's a dig at bards being annoying. :P
(See also, cliche about bard spending entire session trying to woo the NPC barmaid)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 15, 2018, 12:17:52 pm

Ah, so, also a baseless dig. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 15, 2018, 12:40:09 pm

It's important to know which one to complain about though! :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 15, 2018, 01:40:06 pm

Honestly, my first thought with the bedroll was getting someone to fall asleep on it and then using their body as an indestructible weapon for the duration.

Even if you don't specifically use them to beat people up, just strap them to someone beefy and use them as a human shield of infinite durability.


And useless bards have been a meme for ages.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 15, 2018, 03:03:16 pm

@wierd: Regarding traps, unless the bard can single handedly kill the monster or somehow sneak, the rest of the party is still going to have to get through them. Plus, if the party is high enough level to use something like dimension door, chances are the lair would be warded against it. A smart or clever DM (or one whose forum mates are telling them about possibilities, heh) who anticipates it or perhaps one who has a party that uses such tricks often, could also employ countermeasures.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 15, 2018, 04:02:33 pm

Or you can take the easy way out.

Why is this random cave in the middle of BFE riddled with anti-magic fields? BECAUSE I SAID SO!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 15, 2018, 04:14:23 pm

What is BFE?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 15, 2018, 04:34:27 pm

Quote from: smjjames on May 15, 2018, 04:14:23 pm

What is BFE?

Bumfuck Egypt, rudespeak for "the middle of nowhere". Don't ask why Egypt; I don't know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 15, 2018, 05:03:30 pm

Bumfuck is also located in Ohio, Idaho, Texas and Iowa. BFE is apparently military jargon, at least originally.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on May 16, 2018, 01:16:24 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on May 15, 2018, 06:03:55 am

Spoiler: Bedroll of Deep Slumber (click to show/hide)

Whenever a living creature falls asleep on this item, the bedroll's magic protects the sleeper from any and all harm. Until they would normally awaken (typically 8 hours) the sleeping creature is immune to damage, suffocation, extremes of temperature, or any magical effect that includes them as a target, be it beneficial or harmful. Ongoing effects, such as curses, poison or disease have their duration temporarily suspended for the duration of use. During this time, the wearer automatically fails any check to perceive their surroundings or wake up until their rest is complete, and their body, whilst immune to harm, can be physically moved to a location that might prove hazardous when they awake. This item may be used by the same creature no more than once every 24 hours.

So, can I take a bunch of snakes about to go into hibernation, get them comfy in this bag, wait for them to go to sleep, and then tie them together to have months of unbreakable snake twine?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 16, 2018, 01:57:23 pm

*8 hours

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on May 16, 2018, 02:02:25 pm

Typically, but it specifically said "as long as they normally sleep", which is typically, but not always, 8 hours for people, but probably longer for hibernators.
Hey, does the bag work on trancing elves?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 02:12:50 pm

Yeah, he said ‘as long as they usually sleep’ without giving a specific time limit. I suppose the first question one might ask is, can they be physically interacted with (in the context of the snakes, obviously) or if it’s like a typical cryosleep chamber where you’re completely enclosed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on May 16, 2018, 02:32:22 pm

Quote from: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 02:12:50 pm

Yeah, he said ‘as long as they usually sleep’ without giving a specific time limit. I suppose the first question one might ask is, can they be physically interacted with (in the context of the snakes, obviously) or if it’s like a typical cryosleep chamber where you’re completely enclosed.

That would be a problem, except for the following clarification:

Quote from: Jimmy on May 15, 2018, 06:42:18 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on May 15, 2018, 06:17:50 am

Bedroll of Deep Slumber: Nothing says you can’t pull them out of the bedroll and then stab them.

Sure it does. When they fall asleep on the bedroll, they're immune to harm for 8 hours. Getting moved off the bedroll, fired out of a cannon and falling into an active volcano doesn't change that. So long as you fall asleep on the bedroll, you gain its benefits. What happens after you're asleep is the !!FUN!! part.

Snakes have so many possibilities. Invincible ropes. Unbreakable woven armor. The Dungeons and Dragons Space Elevator could be constructed from knotted snakes- their unlimited tensile strength granted them by this wondrous artifact. There are probably some other hibernators that would work well, but the formfactor of snakes makes them incredibly versatile as a material.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on May 16, 2018, 02:36:22 pm

They still will eventually wake up, so probably not a space elevator unless you are okay with it breaking apart eventually.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 02:42:43 pm

Unless you somehow keep them under very long term hibernation? Like say, cryosleep?

Anyways, it’s up to the DM (jimmy in this case) to decide how far they’re willing to let the item be abused for its properties.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on May 16, 2018, 02:44:41 pm

Perform coma inducing brain surgery on the bedroll. Transform all manner of woodland creatures into eternally slumbering and invincible building materials.

Sure, the success rate isn't going to be great, but you need to spike snakes to make the great space snekavator.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 02:50:12 pm

Quote from: Draignean on May 16, 2018, 02:44:41 pm

Perform coma inducing brain surgery on the bedroll. Transform all manner of woodland creatures into eternally slumbering and invincible building materials.

Sure, the success rate isn't going to be great, but you need to spike snakes to make the great space snekavator.

I think surgery is included in the ‘immune to physical damage’ part. While it wouldn’t likely involve hit points anyway, if you can’t stab the sleeping critter with a sword, it makes sense that a scalpel wouldn’t do anything either.

Anyways, I was thinking of the cryosleep type solution, not the ‘make them braindead’ solution.

Edit:making them comatose before you put them in could still be viable....

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Draignean on May 16, 2018, 02:52:38 pm

Quote from: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 02:50:12 pm

Quote from: Draignean on May 16, 2018, 02:44:41 pm

Perform coma inducing brain surgery on the bedroll. Transform all manner of woodland creatures into eternally slumbering and invincible building materials.

Sure, the success rate isn't going to be great, but you need to spike snakes to make the great space snekavator.

I think surgery is included in the ‘immune to physical damage’ part. While it wouldn’t likely involve hit points anyway, if you can’t stab the sleeping critter with a sword, it makes sense that a scalpel wouldn’t do anything either.

You misunderstand my level of calculated cruelty. Immunity to physical damage is only while the enchant is active. There's nothing to keep you from spiking the creature quickly while it's awake on the bedroll, and letting the pain and brain damage send into unconsciousness. Aim well, and it shan't wake up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 02:55:18 pm

Or do it before putting them in the bedroll, as I realized in my edit.

I suppose it’d be up to jimmy as far as how it deals with something like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 16, 2018, 03:06:39 pm

Just tie the snakes together with knots.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 16, 2018, 03:38:01 pm

Anyone here seen 5th editions new stackable centaurs?

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA-Centaur.pdf

They're trying to have large monster races be medium PC races by making them 'medium with extras' instead of 'large with stuff taken away' and it's resulted in the centaur's being worded such that they can ride each other just fine, and can also ride horses and such just fine.

Centaur battle tower is now a thing.  :P

(https://orig00.deviantart.net/e67a/f/2015/362/8/5/pmkoopabrostower_by_doctorworm1987-d9lsxvz.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 16, 2018, 03:46:44 pm

Centaurs riding centaurs is how you get more centaurs.

What's the problem here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 16, 2018, 03:50:13 pm

The problem would be centaurs riding horses. It's unsanitary at best.  ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 16, 2018, 03:53:54 pm

I asked my D&D group to reroll as centaurs so we could have a centaur tower. No one did so.

Also, check out the thumbnail for DawnforgedCast's review of that particular UA. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz9ZH2RwA_M)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 16, 2018, 04:00:56 pm

I think my old gnome cleric was carried by part members occasionally.
I know our "unglued" Christmas Campaign involved my human character Bradbury riding his wife, a PC griffon, into battle.  Eventually, against the forces of Santa Clause.  Jimminy christmas that was a weird campaign, and also our only epic campaign (we started at 1, and gained 4-5 levels *per session*.  And our blink dog PC was psionic.)

Order of the Stick "cheats" by having the dwarf constantly carried.  Dwarves are medium, somewhat bizarrely - though my current dwarf is 5ft, and presumably stout for that height.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 16, 2018, 04:19:54 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on May 16, 2018, 03:53:54 pm

I asked my D&D group to reroll as centaurs so we could have a centaur tower. No one did so.

Also, check out the thumbnail for DawnforgedCast's review of that particular UA. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz9ZH2RwA_M)

Well, if they're not going for it it's your obligation to throw one against them to demonstrate what they're missing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 16, 2018, 05:12:44 pm

Quote from: Harry Baldman on May 16, 2018, 04:19:54 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on May 16, 2018, 03:53:54 pm

I asked my D&D group to reroll as centaurs so we could have a centaur tower. No one did so.

Also, check out the thumbnail for DawnforgedCast's review of that particular UA. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz9ZH2RwA_M)

Well, if they're not going for it it's your obligation to throw one against them to demonstrate what they're missing.

Would that I could, but I'm a lowly player this time. The DM threw one solitary minotaur at us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 07:05:26 pm

You could always find centaurs and stack them, lol. If your DM lets you anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on May 16, 2018, 07:20:28 pm

Hmmm, a hundred centaurs stacked riding one another walk into a Flesh to Stone spell trap and all fail their saving throws, instantly turning the entire stack to stone.

I shall call it the Centower.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 16, 2018, 07:29:05 pm

Quote from: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 07:05:26 pm

You could always find centaurs and stack them, lol. If your DM lets you anyway.

Only PC race centaurs can be stacked, normal centaurs are unstackable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 08:45:59 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 16, 2018, 07:29:05 pm

Quote from: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 07:05:26 pm

You could always find centaurs and stack them, lol. If your DM lets you anyway.

Only PC race centaurs can be stacked, normal centaurs are unstackable.

What’s the difference?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on May 16, 2018, 08:46:30 pm

The PC race centaurs are designed for players to use, while normal centaurs aren't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 08:48:56 pm

Then generate a bunch of PC statted centaurs and have them be NPCs? Seems really arbitrary.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 17, 2018, 04:07:27 am

When in doubt, mad wizard.

The demihuman centaurpede.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 17, 2018, 07:10:20 am

Quote from: smjjames on May 16, 2018, 08:48:56 pm

Seems really arbitrary.

That is the main complaint about PC centaurs being medium and NPC ones being large.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 18, 2018, 12:38:51 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 17, 2018, 07:10:20 am

That is the main complaint about PC centaurs being medium and NPC ones being large.  :P

Yeah, don't really get why they couldn't just make them Large while specifying that they only have a 5-foot reach, since reach seems like the only thing that they would need to think about (and hey, bugbear PCs get extra reach and quasi-Largeness anyway at which point you need to wonder why they even bother specifying quasi-Largeness to begin with). Large size generally seems to have about as many benefits as downsides, kind of like being Small.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 18, 2018, 03:24:58 am

Presumably because not everyone makes centuar-accessible tombs and they want to keep the hallways uncomfortably tight for normal-sized critters, where you'd have to leave any larges outside.

Other than that? ...probably as much reason as any other D&D decision.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 18, 2018, 07:13:44 am

Quote from: Kagus on May 18, 2018, 03:24:58 am

Presumably because not everyone makes centuar-accessible tombs and they want to keep the hallways uncomfortably tight for normal-sized critters, where you'd have to leave any larges outside.

Other than that? ...probably as much reason as any other D&D decision.

I feel like it makes sense for centaurs to be horse-Large (2 spaces) rather than ogre-Large (4 spaces) - and hey, having your ass be too huge to fit through the door now and again seems like a pretty good drawback. And it can literally be fixed with Enlarge/Reduce, which is just a second-level spell!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on May 18, 2018, 07:14:43 am

Pony-taur

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 18, 2018, 07:30:13 am

Toy Centaur.  Just the right size for a Small creature to ride into battle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 18, 2018, 07:35:44 am

Did someone say Ponytaur (http://www.tritacgames.com/murderhoof.htm)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on May 18, 2018, 01:17:00 pm

So if PC centaurs are stackable, can they also be looped around so that the centaur at the bottom of the stack rides the centaur at the top of the stack? In the simplest case this would just be one centaur laying upside-down on the back of another, but one could easily imagine great wheels of stacked centaurs rolling along.

It feels like there should be an exploitable infinite loop there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 18, 2018, 01:27:09 pm

No, the mount and rider are in the same space, so you can't have the higher up riders looping through other spaces on a battlemat to circle back down to the bottom.

Sadly the general consensus it that the main benefits to riding a centaur is that a tanky rider can use Mounted Combatant to force attacks aimed at a squishy mount to target the rider instead, and that the centaur can use exotic movement abilities to benefit a rider who otherwise wouldn't have them.

So a paladin or fighter or whatever can ride a centaur wizard or rogue or similar and prevent people attacking them at all, and if the centaur has a fly spell on, or can run over water or up walls like a monk it can do so while ridden.

Otherwise most stuff a PC mount/rider combo can do could be done just as well by two guys on foot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 18, 2018, 02:02:51 pm

Don't know anything about 5E other than that it apparently has Kendar, but I thought that there at least used to be feats that gave special abilities or buffs to the mount the player is riding on.

...or maybe I'm just mixing it up with Incursion again. Incursion had some great mounted combat feats. Overrun was just ridiculous (every attack the mount makes is given a free trip chance. Combine with a special mount that has a three-attack natural sequence, and nobody gets to stand up).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 18, 2018, 02:12:31 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 18, 2018, 02:02:51 pm

Don't know anything about 5E other than that it apparently has Kendar, but I thought that there at least used to be feats that gave special abilities or buffs to the mount the player is riding on.

...or maybe I'm just mixing it up with Incursion again. Incursion had some great mounted combat feats. Overrun was just ridiculous (every attack the mount makes is given a free trip chance. Combine with a special mount that has a three-attack natural sequence, and nobody gets to stand up).

In 5e the only feat for riding mounts is Mounted Combatant. It lets the rider force any attacks against the mount to target the rider instead, gives the mount the same effect as Improved Evasion (any attacks that allow dex saving throws, like fireball, do no damage on a success and half damage on a fail) and it gives the rider advantage when attacking unmounted creatures smaller than the mount, which means small or smaller creatures if riding a PCentaur.

The problem with mounts in 5e is that you lose your own actions to make them do anything more than move, and most mounts are worse attackers than their rider. A PCentaur mount doesn't have that problem, but is also a whole PC rather than an expendable NPC and most of the time you'd be better with two separate mounted PCs rather than one PC riding another. Exceptions apply if using Mounted Combatant to keep Centaur spellcasters protected from attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on May 18, 2018, 03:25:56 pm

If centaurs get a climbing speed, does that mean they can get up walls just fine, without worrying about difficulty with hooves?

Also, You people seem to be forgetting how useful the other features of Mounted Combatant are.
The centaur has Evasion, which is useful, and the tank has advantage on melee weapon attacks on creatures smaller than the centaur, which is handy, even if it rairly comes up without size enlargement.
If the centaur is a 9th level mystic, s/her can use Giant Growth's Giant Form, and have Enlarge cast on her/him as well, giving the tank advantage on any melee attack roll on a non-gargantuan creature.
Give a an 11th level fighter Haste, too, and s/he can roll 16 attack rolls on the first turn, 22 if the centaur uses Mantle of Command effectively.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on May 18, 2018, 04:07:49 pm

I think the centaur would work very well with a Rogue rider using mounted combat: rogue always has an ally within 5 ft for sneak attacks, can take damage from attacks directed at centaur and halve it with Uncanny Dodge upon reaching 5th level, from 7th onward both centaur and rider can mostly ignore fireballs.

That last part might work really well if the centaur is a non-Evocation Wizard (so doesn't have the ability to just ignore friendlies) or any other class that can cast Fireball, since they can put one around themselves with almost no danger.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 18, 2018, 08:11:15 pm

So if Mounted Combat redirects attacks onto the rider instead, if you have a centower riding along and you attack the lowest one of the bunch, does the attack get sent to the second in line or does that attack then also get redirected to the one above him again?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 18, 2018, 08:13:45 pm

It's a can not must scenario, so it can probably go as high up the stack as the stack wants, or it can only go as high as the first because he's not eligible for his rider to force it target him depending on how you interpret the wording.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2018, 08:52:57 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 18, 2018, 08:13:45 pm

It's a can not must scenario, so it can probably go as high up the stack as the stack wants, or it can only go as high as the first because he's not eligible for his rider to force it target him depending on how you interpret the wording.

Personally, I would rule that the attack can only be re-directed as far as the weapon's reach. A guy with a sword on the ground isn't going to be able to hit the rider at the top of a centower without some serious acrobatics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 18, 2018, 08:55:52 pm

Quote from: Sirus on May 18, 2018, 08:52:57 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 18, 2018, 08:13:45 pm

It's a can not must scenario, so it can probably go as high up the stack as the stack wants, or it can only go as high as the first because he's not eligible for his rider to force it target him depending on how you interpret the wording.

Personally, I would rule that the attack can only be re-directed as far as the weapon's reach. A guy with a sword on the ground isn't going to be able to hit the rider at the top of a centower without some serious acrobatics.

Makes sense for melee attacks, but what about ranged or magic attacks that aren’t multi-target or otherwise AoE?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Sirus on May 18, 2018, 09:56:11 pm

Quote from: smjjames on May 18, 2018, 08:55:52 pm

Quote from: Sirus on May 18, 2018, 08:52:57 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 18, 2018, 08:13:45 pm

It's a can not must scenario, so it can probably go as high up the stack as the stack wants, or it can only go as high as the first because he's not eligible for his rider to force it target him depending on how you interpret the wording.

Personally, I would rule that the attack can only be re-directed as far as the weapon's reach. A guy with a sword on the ground isn't going to be able to hit the rider at the top of a centower without some serious acrobatics.

Makes sense for melee attacks, but what about ranged or magic attacks that aren’t multi-target or otherwise AoE?

Well, same deal. A rider atop a centower that is, say, 50 feet tall would be safe from a spell with only a 30ft range, as an example.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Tawa on May 18, 2018, 11:27:32 pm

34 pages later, I have at long last finished what is likely the culmination of ~half a year's dreams of a three-musketeers-style tabletop rpg:

The Cavalier Years: An Adaptation of the 7th Sea Firſt Edition rules to the Real World, in the year of our Lord 1628; whereby the Players, through their capacity for Imagination, may take on the roles of Adventurers, or Pyrates, or Mouſquetaires, or really whatever ſuits their Fancy, in Europe, America, Aſia, or Africa. Containing a Summary of Hiſtorical Events in this formative period in our Hiſtory, with Deſcriptions of the various Countries of Europe, and the Peoples therein, with a number of Maps and Charts of the World, and featuring a number of Portraits, Images, and Drawings of the events of the era.

(There any stray mid-word short s'es in there, by the way?)

Now for an important question: how do I run this? I'm thinking that I'll discard my old play-by-post style entirely. It's crude, inefficient, and has always ended in me losing interest and just dropping it before the players have ever leveled up; moreover, within a short time frame I'll have much more control over my schedule than in the past (and I'm not as afraid of committing to a regular thing like this anymore, either.) My first thought was Roll20, but honestly, I'm not a big fan of it; last time I used it, I remember it being kinda laggy and generally not the most fun to play with, though I will admit that I didn't use it for very long. My current thinking of what I'd prefer to use instead is, oddly enough, Discord.

The 7th Sea rulebook recommends using a tabletop, but there's no D&D-esque movement limitations or running/walking/jogging speed rules--it's supposed to be a very cinematic, swashbuckler-y game, and unless there's pressing circumstances like someone attacking you, it's assumed any given player can move as far as they like, wherever they like, however they like, within boundaries of common sense, though flashy moves like chandelier swings might call for dice-rolling. The only caveat is that it costs an extra action to move up a level--think the classic fencing-up-the-staircase sequence.

So what I'm thinking is that during fights, I could sketch up a rough map of the area, post it, make it a pinned message, and just refer back to that to clear up any confusion. Everything else is just talking to one another--it's a far more RP-heavy game than the traditional dice-heavy "roll-playing games" like D&D, though it's not quite a rules-lite freeformer, either.

I'm mainly bringing this up because I want to know if it's actually a terrible idea that I'm oblivious to or if you guys think it'd work out ok. Like I said, the game's not really reliant on grids or movement restrictions, so a hypothetical map could just be a labeled drawing of a room or a set of rooms, thrown together in under a couple of minutes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Harry Baldman on May 19, 2018, 02:38:11 am

VoIP through Discord is the solution that's worked for me best of all, even text-based Roll20 games suffer from a gimped pace of play quite often. My own solution for the Powered by the Apocalypse games I run is to use a Roll20 window to keep track of rolls and put up backgrounds/relevant maps while keeping the game rolling along with voice. And even my D&D 3.5 DM mostly just uses the Roll20 window for battles where he makes a quick-and-dirty approximation of the relative positions of everything on the field, notes down obstacles and such with a rough sketch of the environs and then away we go, and it's pretty much worked perfectly there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 19, 2018, 01:44:29 pm

At the end of today's session, we encountered a green dragon. The fight(?) begins in two weeks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 19, 2018, 08:07:37 pm

"8 points   107,500" views ???
I refreshed and it's gaining about a thousand views per minute, still only three comments and 8 points though.  Weird.
Also a nice idea, thanks for sharing!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 19, 2018, 09:31:17 pm

Quote from: greatorder on May 19, 2018, 08:01:26 pm

So, found an interesting map on the DnD subreddit. Someone saw some art made from coffee mug stains, and chose to use the same idea to make a city.

https://imgur.com/KwMng4C

That’s certainly an interesting city layout concept. No idea if it’d work well in reality,  it that won’t stop it from being used in a fantasy setting. Closest analogue could be Venice, or maybe Amsterdam.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 20, 2018, 04:30:15 am

There's something about it that kinda bothers me while looking at it... I think it might have to do with the circles being of uniform size and shape, giving it the unfortunate resemblance of a copy-pasted city.

Certainly a nifty concept though, like a post- or mid-collapse Atlantis.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2018, 05:54:53 am

Quote from: greatorder on May 20, 2018, 05:18:55 pm

Has anyone ported various animals from Dwarf Fortress to 5e?

I decided to make an evil area on my map (Because alignment-oriented areas are a thing in my world), and porting over some evil bits and bobs would be nice.

"The Dungeons & Dragons 5e Monster Manual addendum: Gibbons"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on May 21, 2018, 05:59:31 am

Giant Kea

A very large parrot like bird, that is unnaturally fixated on shiny and moving objects. Destroys villages and kills the hapless not out of evil predilection, but simply out of playful curiosity.

Relentless, often appearing in flocks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2018, 06:01:17 am

K.E.A., Kill, Eviscerate, Abscond.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on May 21, 2018, 05:08:24 pm

Is this a re-animating biome? Then everything that can be is a zombie, or some other kind of undead.
Giant kea zombies. Fear the squawk.
A skinless titan(DF kind, not DnD kind).
A bronze colossus, there just cuz.
Grimelings in evil swamps.
Though not evil in DF, reachers would make some sense.
What intended CR is this area?

Also, I believe a mounted person is, as per the rules, in the same space as the mount.
So a centower would take up only as much spaces as a regular centaur.
Also, does a centaur take up only 5 feet? Seems like more of a pony-man to me, then.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 21, 2018, 07:28:38 pm

Don’t forget the ‘evil weather’. I suppose you could do some kind of cursed weather thing and there’s certainly plenty of mechanisms that can be used to make toxic/cursed fog or mist or whatever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 21, 2018, 07:33:05 pm

Ceaseless Bloodlust: The Giant Kea's desire to kill overwhelms all other tasks, motivating it to spend as much time attacking as possible. The Giant Kea may use its reaction or bonus action to stand from being prone, take flight, or otherwise struggle against restraint once per turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on May 21, 2018, 07:38:40 pm

Or just apply berserk or blood rage or similar?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on May 22, 2018, 12:35:29 pm

Class:Barbarian 3(Berserker)
Race:Giant Kea
Str:24
Dex:12
Con:24
Int:3
Wis:16
Cha:14

Also, Giant Elephants.



And, speaking once more of centowers, each centaur would have to hold the weight of every centaur above it, so infinite towers are impossible, without infinite carrying capacity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on May 22, 2018, 12:50:41 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 22, 2018, 12:35:29 pm

And, speaking once more of centowers, each centaur would have to hold the weight of every centaur above it, so infinite towers are impossible, without infinite carrying capacity.

Realistically, sure, but unless that's a new addition I don't think that there's such a mechanic in the books themselves. It's just a matter of size.

Then again, Highest version number I ever played was 3.5, so I'm probably not the best metric for determining what is and isn't part of the rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mesa on May 24, 2018, 07:22:16 pm

In my endless, ADHD-driven pursuit of seeking out new & novel things, I'm giving Genesys (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/genesys/) a go.


There's some complications that come when you want to play it online though, at least if your go-to platform for playing RPGs is Roll20+Discord like it is for me and my friends.
For one, there is only one character sheet option on Roll20, and not only is it in my opinion rather ugly and clunky (never been a fan of tab-hell 'sheets, and would've preferred one that more closely emulated the official sheet look), due to Genesys' Narrative Dice mechanic replacing your standard rolls, you need a Pro subscription in order to actually fully utilize the sheet. Or shell out cash for the real dice, or the Android/iOS app. None of which are appealing options to me.

On top of that, due to the combat range rules being abstracted to "range bands" rather than calling for exact distances, there is a lower-than-average need to play the game with maps, and it lends itself better to "theater of the mind" play, which is something I have been interested in doing for a while. (As drawing maps in addition to all the other GM work is hugely taxing.)
So yeah, the "pure Discord+some bots" method is what I will try going with.

I have also gotten a streak of inspiration for my campaign's plot-line which is pretty helpful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 28, 2018, 01:37:20 am

I've got so much notes to relate, wow, maybe soon but we're meeting again tomorrow (last met Wednesday, scheduling).

Just got to share that our paladin finally agreed not to kill a certain orc noncombatant in exchange for a greater treasure share, a magical weapon.  A... spear maybe?
The sorcerer gets his prostitute hireling, the paladin gets his weapon to strike more evil (apparently this is how paladin codes work now (vengeance, I think)), and my dorf fighter just keeps taking copious notes on the fucked up behaviors of lesser races.

Edit:  I still can't believe that freakin yeti have gaze attacks

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on May 29, 2018, 09:23:01 pm

Last battle of the session was *really* close to a TPK.  I think it's fair to say everyone made some mistakes, largely because it was getting late IRL.  While my dwarf fighter was filling waterskins, the other two rushed a room with a couple troglodytes... which turned out to be a *lot* of troglodytes, a nest even, with a sorcerer chieftain.

To make a rather long fight short, it's very fortunate that they managed to stabilize themselves.  Also my class (arcane fighter with the Shield spell, and some scribed scrolls of burning hands) was well suited to the situation.  Retreating into a tunnel so I didn't get swarmed: also helped.

My familiar Mr Stones helped set up a couple of flanks when I rushed in, but went down fast.  1HP, as far as we can tell (technically 8 due to our caster's Inspiring Speech, but still).  Still may have turned the tide.  Mr Stones is dead, long live Mr Spices!

But here's the actually cool part:  The chieftain had a pet.  Now, I'd like to say I intentionally did nonlethal to the pet, but that's not quite true.  I did that in the past, to a ogre's pet dog, and the cur critted my ass off and gave me a "werewolf" phobia.  So I was *trying* to murder this pet, but I rolled a critfail (3 critfails that battle, even).  We use a deck of critfail cards, and in this case the effect was that I do nonlethal damage for 3 rounds.

So after cutting down the lesser trogs, I advanced towards the chieftain over the unconscious body of his pet snek.  I thought he was out of spells, but the DM later revealed OOC that he still had burning hands - but I was accidentally holding his pet hostage.  Wounded and spent though I was, I clearly would win the melee...  So he drew a dagger and held it to our sorcerer's neck.

Now, I was deaf due to a separate critfail, but this was a clear message.  I was actually quite delighted, OOC, and my character was willing to play along.  I threw my weapon aside (nevermind that I could summon it to my hand as a bonus action - a fallback plan) and shoved the snek toward the chieftain.  Watching me suspiciously, he gathered up his snek and gestured to the door.  It took all my 18 strength, but I managed to drag my party members away to safety.

Idunno, I guess I like Tarantino-style standoffs, especially if they deescalate.
Our paladin of vengeance ran back to retrieve his dropped weapon (and kill the chief) as soon as he woke up, but that's fair.  The chief managed to dimension door away anyway.  We are mapping out this infested mountainhome for dwarven resettlement, so if he's smart he'll leave and not return.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 29, 2018, 09:25:17 pm

Kraken Dice cracked 1 million on their kickstarter with only half an hour left! I'm gonna enjoy the fuck out of these dice when they arrive months from now goddamn it I need it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on May 30, 2018, 02:10:57 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on May 29, 2018, 09:25:17 pm

Kraken Dice cracked 1 million on their kickstarter with only half an hour left! I'm gonna enjoy the fuck out of these dice when they arrive months from now goddamn it I need it.

One of my friends backed that, they look real good

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 30, 2018, 01:35:21 pm

Disguise Self will be the death of my kobold bard. I've used it twice now. Both times, I forgot to disguise my voice. I'm beginning to take less of a passive roll, however, so that's good. I just don't want to devolve into comedic relief non-human mascot.


In non-D&D news, I'm reviewing an ancient system straight out of Norway over on RPG Geek. The more I review, the more I realize that some things should just stay in the past.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on May 30, 2018, 04:58:31 pm

Are you Norwegian, Mephisto?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 30, 2018, 05:39:46 pm

Not I. The game devs are Norwegian, a London company published their work, the book found its way to my coworker in Texas back in the 80s, and now it's in my possession here in Indiana. The book is more well traveled than I am.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 31, 2018, 12:43:39 am

Quote from: Mephisto on May 30, 2018, 01:35:21 pm

In non-D&D news, I'm reviewing an ancient system straight out of Norway over on RPG Geek. The more I review, the more I realize that some things should just stay in the past.

I have a feeling I know which system you're talking about. Is it the one where you, ahem, direct movies?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on May 31, 2018, 03:58:54 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on May 31, 2018, 12:43:39 am

Is it the one where you, ahem, direct movies?

Nope. It's MEGA. Nothing too unsavory, it's just not a good system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: deathpunch578 on May 31, 2018, 08:58:01 pm

after a few months, I finally helped my players with their character sheets

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kagus on June 01, 2018, 02:59:50 am

Quote from: deathpunch578 on May 31, 2018, 08:58:01 pm

after a few months, I finally helped my players with their character sheets

Time to go All Guardsmen Squad on them, then!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 02, 2018, 03:12:45 pm

So instead of fighting the dragon, my party decided to conduct some very foolish negotiations that turned into successful negotiations after a round of poison breath. Now, it only worked because this dragon was a teenager and thus vain even by dragon standards, but we got proof that we really were inside the mountainhome for the low price of promising to make and perform songs detailing said dragon's "conquest" (opportunistic squatting).

So next time we just have to convince the dwarfs that there is actually a fucking dragon inside their mountain on top of everything else, and hope they'll help us kill it. Or else actually become the heralds of an edgy teenage green dragon. Pretty sure she can't even fly yet. One week to come up with something before she comes after us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NJW2000 on June 02, 2018, 04:57:48 pm

Tell the dragon the dwarven elders laughed and claimed she wasn't even a threat. One burnt-out hillocks later and dwarven steel is on your side.

Just make sure it sounds like the dwarven leaders were really dumb, rather than your songs being really bad and unclear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 05, 2018, 09:25:17 am

Last night's session was amazing right up until the end, where it was revealed that the final battle was an intentional TPK and that it was All Just a Dream because a good chunk of the party weren't going to be there.

I got to do more support than usual, which was nice for a change. Mantle of Inspiration is pretty great if most of the party is getting ganked by attribute-draining shadow monsters, and the DM hates it when he clumps up enemies and I take advantage of the situation by casting Faerie Lights, forcing him to roll six Dex saves.

Oh, and we lack a cleric. Our only healing came from my bard. I blew half of my first level slots on Cure Wounds and I got to use Song of Rest for the first time. Technically the ranger could have sort of helped out, but it was his first game and he thought "Goodberry" was a joke.

I feel kind of bad that we showed our hands in a session that ultimately didn't matter. I guess the deer in the headlights look the DM gave us several times made up for it.

DM: "You're all locked in jail cells." Me: "I cast Knock." Sorcerer: "I Dimension Door."

DM: "You hear chanting in a language that you don't understand." Sorcerer: "I cast Comprehend Languages."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on June 07, 2018, 11:52:05 pm

Got a fun few sessions prepped for my group.

They're still working their way through the demon dungeons featuring the seven deadly sins, and they're close to encountering lust.

I'm extremely pleased to have built the encounter containing the following features:

• The male demon avatar of lust with three succubi triplet minions
• All enemies naked (wearing no clothing or armor)
• Succubi featuring extremely strong grapple abilities
• Equipment to render captured characters helpless
• Lust demon wielding two revolvers with appropriate puns
• Bard ranks on lust demon for extra hip-thrusting dance moves whilst fighting

A pretty difficult CR 16 encounter with some fun mechanics overall. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out at the table.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 08, 2018, 05:12:54 am

I’ve heard the grapple rule book is as thick as an Oxford Dictionary.

I guess they just finished the greed one and lust is next?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 08, 2018, 05:59:23 am

You got that dictionary’s number?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 08, 2018, 08:28:29 am

Assuming 5e as that's pretty much the only game most people play ( :'()...

Grappling isn't bad. There's a short blurb talking about modifiers. There's a short description of what being grappled does to your character.

If you want a lengthy tome on grappling, however, look no further than GURPS (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/MartialArts/technicalgrappling/).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 08, 2018, 08:59:34 am

IIRC Jimmy plays 3.5, where the grappling rules are complex enough to need a flowchart, but really not that long.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Criptfeind on June 08, 2018, 09:42:44 am

Grappling rules have a really overblown reputation for complexity in 3.5. It's really just a couple of checks that are basically attack rolls, then a list of things you can and can't do when in a grapple.

Here are the rules for them. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) Really not that complex at all, only really possibly so in comparison to just 1d20+modifiers "Do I hit?" I suspect the reason why they have this super exaggerated reputation is just because it's not something that the normal party actually purposefully does a lot (humanoids almost never want to grapple a monster unless they are hyper specialized in it, and monsters normally have an attack routine that a gm is unlikely to deviate from a lot of the time.) so that when it does really rarely come up it prompts people to need to open the rule book since they've not memorized it. But I think overall it's a lot less complex and intellectually stressing to use then say, a magic user choosing what spell to cast every turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 08, 2018, 09:52:15 am

I was trying to make the same sort of joke Darths and Droids made here (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0233.html) about grappling rules, or possibly here. (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0343.html)

I think they use 3.5

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 08, 2018, 12:39:20 pm

Having advantage against everything medium or smaller sounds great. There are other ways of getting lots of advantage if you're determined, however, though probably none of them work for a polearm fighter.

If you're doing a bunch of dungeon delving or movement in areas unacceptable for horses, it'd be kind of a dead feat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: pikachu17 on June 08, 2018, 12:58:25 pm

Well, that is assuming you don't have access to griffons, and such.
Or centaurs.
But yeah, regular horses are really hard to take through dungeons, and even flying mounts tend to have some trouble in dungeons.
I don't know what precisely that subclass does, but if it pretty much requires mounts, then mounted combatant is good, as it gives advantage to melee weapon attack rolls against creatures smaller than your mount, and makes your mount much harder to kill.
 If you can take two feats, may I recommend Sentinel, considering you already have pole arm master?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 08, 2018, 12:58:51 pm

Our 5e paladin just earned his mount, and we're still in a dungeon, so he chose a riding lizard.  He didn't use it yet (because we don't know how mounted combat works in 5e, heh) but it has a climbing speed and can attach to ceilings...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 08, 2018, 02:56:06 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 08, 2018, 12:58:51 pm

(because we don't know how mounted combat works in 5e, heh)

With an unintelligent mount and a rider without the Mounted Combatant feat, things don't change a lot:

• It costs half one's movement to mount or dismount. If the mount is moved against its will or if you go prone while mounted, DC10 Dex save to not fall off and prone next to it. If mount goes prone, reaction to land on your feet, otherwise prone next to it.
• The mount can be controlled or act independently. If controlled, it takes its turn at the same time as the rider, and can only Dash, Disengage or Dodge. Disengaging or dodging only gives benefit to the mount, not the rider. If it acts independently, it gets its own turn with no limitations to actions, but is controlled by the DM.

Basically, when not given free rein, a mount speeds you up and frees action economy for mobility but doesn't actually "do" a lot. When given free rein, the mount is an allied creature that might help attack your enemies, but also might act unexpectedly. However, due to the wording of the Find Steed spell, which I assume is the case here, there's a bit of a gray area. The spell states that the summoned mount is intelligent, loyal and follows commands as best it can, so it's up to the DM to decide whether the rider can let it act 'indepedently' but still give verbal commands as a free action, which would give the best of both worlds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 08, 2018, 03:11:02 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 08, 2018, 12:58:51 pm

Our 5e paladin just earned his mount, and we're still in a dungeon, so he chose a riding lizard.  He didn't use it yet (because we don't know how mounted combat works in 5e, heh) but it has a climbing speed and can attach to ceilings...

Is it that yipping bird-lizard from Kamino? ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Kadzar on June 08, 2018, 03:26:38 pm

Are you talking about a varactyl (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Varactyl)? They're actually from Utapau.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 08, 2018, 04:35:42 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 08, 2018, 03:11:02 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 08, 2018, 12:58:51 pm

Our 5e paladin just earned his mount, and we're still in a dungeon, so he chose a riding lizard.  He didn't use it yet (because we don't know how mounted combat works in 5e, heh) but it has a climbing speed and can attach to ceilings...

Is it that yipping bird-lizard from Kamino? ;)

Wow, it's funny you say that, because we're probably starting Star Wars (Edget of the Empire) next session.  I don't remember mentioning that...
The paladin is a dragonborn though, so a lizard mount seems appropriate (:

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 08, 2018, 07:37:40 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on June 08, 2018, 03:26:38 pm

Are you talking about a varactyl (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Varactyl)? They're actually from Utapau.

Yeah, those. I think I meant to say Geonosis but screwed up the name anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 08, 2018, 07:52:36 pm

Chewy does not live on Endor

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on June 10, 2018, 04:13:25 am

I just finished a campaign for a group that would very much like another one, the only caveat being that no two players are going to be available at the same time for the foreseeable future. Additionally, everyone is somewhat tired of fantasy, and I have finally discovered how to reconcile their frequent requests for more combat with their continual reluctance to actually engage in violence: provided they don't actually see who they're slaughtering they're as entertainingly devious about it as they have been about everything else.

Taken in aggregate, this would suggest some kind of asynchronous play-by-email in which the PCs are at one remove from, and in theory directing, the sorts of things normal PCs do, since that's most of what they end up doing anyway and we may as well compress an entire catastrophemission/event into their orders and whatever fragmentary reports of the results reach back to them to save time. Espionage would seem to cater to their paranoia and love of having a plan to kill everyone they meet, but I haven't yet found a system designed for this sort of play, wherein the players are more M and/or Q than 007. Spymasters, I suppose. In the past, when I've run into an idea for which there is no system, that generally means it's a) ridiculously not fun b)already out there and I just haven't found it and/or c)needs no system anyway. Any thoughts on which it might be this time?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 10, 2018, 05:56:01 am

Have you considered d) making one yourself? It sounds like a fun idea. I guess the thing you should be worried about is the players being too detached from the action. If their feedback consists of dry reports, it might not be engaging enough. Could write narrative things and little stories detailing the adventures of their agents and so, if that’s your kind of thing. Dunno if that’d work for your idea or group though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Yoink on June 11, 2018, 01:51:51 am

So, Free RPG Day is coming up this Saturday!
No, I didn't know it was a thing either, until recently. To be honest I'm not sure how exciting the idea of a bunch of mini-sessions really is, but I'll go along anyway. Always nice to play even a little bit, and who knows, I might meet folks to start playing more regularly with.

Not sure what games to go with, though... there are tables for 5th Ed, AD&D, Vampire the Masquerade and something called Genesys in a 40k setting.
I had kinda hoped "Genesys" was some new 40k RPG I hadn't heard of (because dang, their rulesets are great), but the organiser just got back to me and apparently it's just a generic d20 system. Oh well.

Any suggestions? Also, if any of you Melbourne Bay12ers are reading this, come along! :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 11, 2018, 02:34:51 am

Quote from: Yoink on June 11, 2018, 01:51:51 am

Not sure what games to go with, though... there are tables for 5th Ed, AD&D, Vampire the Masquerade and something called Genesys in a 40k setting.
I had kinda hoped "Genesys" was some new 40k RPG I hadn't heard of (because dang, their rulesets are great), but the organiser just got back to me and apparently it's just a generic d20 system. Oh well.

Genesys is from FFG. It uses funky dice like pretty much all of their games (Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3e, Edge of the Empire, and more).

As for 40k... Wrath & Glory is supposed to come out at Gen Con. That's a bit far for an Aussie to just go do for a weekend but it'll be available on DriveThruRPG so there's that. Here's a webcomic, if that's your kind of thing. (https://www.ulisses-us.com/comic/wg-example-p1/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on June 11, 2018, 06:10:37 am

I am disappointed that Paizo's coming to Brisbane for a three day Pathfinder convention and I'm gonna miss it due to work. Sucks to be the one in charge, but comes with the paycheck I suppose.

Hope the rest of my crew enjoy a weekend of gaming!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on June 11, 2018, 10:38:01 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on June 10, 2018, 05:56:01 am

Have you considered d) making one yourself? It sounds like a fun idea. I guess the thing you should be worried about is the players being too detached from the action. If their feedback consists of dry reports, it might not be engaging enough. Could write narrative things and little stories detailing the adventures of their agents and so, if that’s your kind of thing. Dunno if that’d work for your idea or group though.

That is what I'm doing, yes. Asking how the entire enterprise might be summarily dismissed and mocked was a precautionary step to help increase the chances that, in the event I want advice on the system later, it will be summarily dismissed with marginally more informative mockery.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Yoink on June 11, 2018, 12:03:38 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on June 11, 2018, 02:34:51 am

As for 40k... Wrath & Glory is supposed to come out at Gen Con. That's a bit far for an Aussie to just go do for a weekend but it'll be available on DriveThruRPG so there's that. Here's a webcomic, if that's your kind of thing. (https://www.ulisses-us.com/comic/wg-example-p1/)

Oh man, attending Gencon has been pretty much a lifelong dream of mine.
Hmmm... I think I'll probably stick with the old games, with decent mechanics, haha. Pretty nice art in the comic, though! Been too long since I've gotten up to any 40k shenanigans. Maybe next time I have money to burn I should grab a rulebook, as opposed to the PDFs I have mouldering digitally away somewhere...


I ended up booking for three sessions on Saturday: 5e in the morning, that Genesys thing in the afternoon, and that weird edgy goth game in the evening. Do I need to wear my black trench coat for such an activity?
Aaaaah what have I let myself in for? That's like, several hours of social interaction. o_o Maybe I'll have some bright-and-early beers beforehand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 12, 2018, 07:02:44 am

Quote from: Yoink on June 11, 2018, 12:03:38 pm

I think I'll probably stick with the old games, with decent mechanics, haha.

That's the first I've heard any of the 40k RPGs, even the later ones with a bunch of the foibles of the earlier versions fixed, described as having decent mechanics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 18, 2018, 10:35:25 pm

5e. We just dinged to level 5. Pandora's Box has opened and I don't know where to go first. So many cool Bard spells.

Bestow Curse, Catnap, Dispel Magic, Enemies Abound, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud,

Spoiler: Obligatory OotS (click to show/hide)

I prepared Explosive Runes this morning

I may have sold myself on Glyph of Warding. In addition to Explosive Rune shenanigans, Ako is a fabulous bard. Spell Glyphing a neener-neener Vicious Mockery onto chests and other openables is exactly up my alley.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Jimmy on June 19, 2018, 06:35:39 am

"And the academy award for best bard goes to..."

*Opens envelope*

Reminds me of an encounter I had prepped for my group I never ended up using, involving a letter delivered via courier imbued with explosive runes, and a bunch of cultists hidden in a crowd waiting for the boom as their signal to attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 08:03:28 am

Sad thing is, Glyph of Warding is less versatile in 5e. If you cast it on "an object", that object can only be moved 10 feet from that point before the spell fizzles. The other option is casting it on "a surface", I think the intention is for it to be completely immobile.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on June 19, 2018, 08:27:15 am

What if you teleport it - ie it has not technically moved at all?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 08:31:52 am

The exact wording is something about being moved more than 10 feet from the point where the item was when the spell was cast. I think teleport qualifies, though I love the thought of someone dedicated enough to the craft to spend a 7th level slot to move an item with a 3rd level spell on it.

Then again, I was just talking about blowing 200 gold every time I wanted to pull my neener neener prank. This is going to have to wait until my character accumulates FU money.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 09:54:41 am

...

(Gets super pedantic)

Clearly, frame-dragging is the exception, otherwise the spell would fizzle almost instantly as a result of the planet's motion through space. (Planet is not only in orbit around a star, the star is in orbit around the galaxy-- meaning the planet is moving pretty damned fast, relative to the center of the galaxy. Several million miles per hour.)

Since frame-dragging/space distortion is then guaranteed to be the "out" that enables it to work as the writers intended, it opens all kinds of other options, such as things like open dimension doors-- as those work pretty much like wormholes. :P

(Good luck getting a DM to accept that answer though.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 10:01:11 am

Appropriate DM response to the above pedantry:

"Magic is not physics, it has its own rules, and they are written right there for everyone to see."

That line should very neatly resolve any arguments, if it doesn't, just employ rule zero.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on June 19, 2018, 10:35:11 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 10:01:11 am

Appropriate DM response to the above pedantry:

"Magic is not physics, it has its own rules, and they are written right there for everyone to see."

That line should very neatly resolve any arguments, if it doesn't, just employ rule zero.

They clearly interact, though -- and more importantly, if the players care enough to invent some cockeyed scheme to move an expensive mid-level spell around, that's an excellent opportunity for things to go entertainingly wrong. Shutdown by DM fiat isn't nearly as much fun as letting them have all the rope they could ever need to hang themselves with.

Maybe it's just a quirk of having a gaming group full of scientists who all find this sort of thing fun and engaging to think about, but I've found that some of the most memorable moments in our games have been the result of the creative application of player pedantry; as far as I know they've never noticed the retroading I've had to do to make it work with the story. This also lets me save rule zero for the times when someone's actually uncomfortable or otherwise not having fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 10:41:27 am

And rule zero is... 'there are no rules'?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Trekkin on June 19, 2018, 10:42:52 am

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 10:41:27 am

And rule zero is... 'there are no rules'?

Rule Zero is "DM fiat overrides rules."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 10:48:03 am

Quote from: Trekkin on June 19, 2018, 10:35:11 am

They clearly interact, though -- and more importantly, if the players care enough to invent some cockeyed scheme to move an expensive mid-level spell around, that's an excellent opportunity for things to go entertainingly wrong. Shutdown by DM fiat isn't nearly as much fun as letting them have all the rope they could ever need to hang themselves with.

I love being allowed to hang myself and fellow party members. Presenting: our after-game chat. Note, we can all read and know that, per the description, this wouldn't work.


Ako
If everyone dips five levels in spellcasting classes, we could upgrade Tiny Hut into Tiny Village.

Naex
I’m down for this.

Ako
Make DM bust out the math. Assuming we all cast at the same time, what do intersecting Tiny Huts do?

Naex
Well, now I’m curious to find out. What if it’s just one big Tiny Hut with rooms for everyone?
A magical dorm, of sorts.
A paradox. :astonished:

DM
I know much of tiny huts
If the caster leaves hut is gone, only people who would be witin the hut when it is casted may enter or leave
they can't intersect.... like 95% sure

Naex
...but would you let us?

DM
I would allow you to try
with consequences


Naex is getting Tiny Hut within one or two levels. Then we can find out what these consequences are.

Quote

Maybe it's just a quirk of having a gaming group full of scientists who all find this sort of thing fun and engaging to think about, but I've found that some of the most memorable moments in our games have been the result of the creative application of player pedantry

I definitely get some of that. I don't know what Naex's player does for a living but I'm a software developer and love doing pedantic shenanigans. I think we're frequently the two most "disruptive" characters. Who'da guessed that the utility sorcerer and the College of Glamour bard would be disruptive?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 19, 2018, 11:05:31 am

The Angry GM: The Website: The Book: The Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/theangrygm/the-angry-gm-the-website-the-book) I really love the reward tier descriptions, they are classic Angry :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 01:15:54 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on June 19, 2018, 10:42:52 am

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 10:41:27 am

And rule zero is... 'there are no rules'?

Rule Zero is "DM fiat overrides rules."

Technically rule zero is "The DM is the FINAL ARBITER of the rules."  Though there are a great many ways to phrase it.

I actually generally let players go with weird stuff, but I will not hesitate to say NO when they start pulling advanced physics shit in a medieval universe.  No, just because YOU understand the principles of physics and chemistry does not mean that your highly intelligent mage who uses bat guano to hurl fireballs has sufficient data to infer them (without YEARS of study of those specific principles).  Separation of player and character knowledge is an absolute at my table.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 01:24:48 pm

The DM controls all factors *except* for decisions made by your character. Including but not limited to the decisions of npcs, the course of history, random happenstance, the laws of physics, basic mathematics, and yes, the "game rules", whatever that means.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 01:28:42 pm

Anyway, I was really just (poorly) trying to offer a simple solution to those times that players get out of control with their ideas, as DM you've got to decide when enough is enough and have ways to reign things in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 01:42:30 pm

(warning, this sounds and probably is more than a bit douchey, and I apologize in advance.)

The major issue I have with "capriciously applied" rules, (Like "Magic is not science!", when if there is a force in the world, and it can have demonstrably repeatable results from a repeated action that involves it (such as an incantation)--- then quite clearly, magic *IS* a science, resulting in a paradoxical, or nonsensical statement from the DM, etc.) is that the goal of a role playing game, is to ASSUME A ROLE, and the whole point of creating a fantasy world, IS TO INTERACT WITH THAT WORLD. 

When a DM simply does not want to permit experimentation or critical reasoning on the fantasy world, it denies the player a true understanding of what they are actually doing, and denies them the ability to actually play a role.

Example:  A wizard.

A wizard is *NOT* a sorcerer. (A sorcerer's magic is wild, and a product of their imagination/charisma interacting with their magical abilities.)  A wizard learns magic as if it were a science. 'This principle of magical energy interacts with that feature of mundane matter, producing THIS effect'--- etc.  This is necessary for a standard spellbook to even exist.

Wizards learn these interactions, and their 'research', is finding more detailed understandings of those interactions, or finding exceptions to the rules of those interactions, in a disciplined and repeatable fashion.  It would be in a wizard's nature to want to push the limits of their knowledge, or to push the limits of what is (currently) possible with their knowledge of magic and how it interacts with the world they live in.

Since that is kind of essential to the core motivation of a wizard's intellect, insisting that a wizard cannot question, experiment, or attempt rational deduction to create new effects/spells, modify existing spells to have different effects by using slightly different conditionals, etc-- is straight up denying the ability to assume the role of a wizard.

Employing rule-zero because you dont want to try and work out how these experiments end in a more or less coherent way, and breaking that roleplay, is fucking lame.

LAME.

If you ask me, the better way to limit that kind of thing is to impose a cooldown, or material investment requirement to performing an experiment, and requiring controlled conditions-- then accepting whatever outcome the experiment yields as if it were a discovered rule of nature, with the same force as expecting a rock dropped from high up, to fall down and crash into the ground below.

Bullshit handwavy shit about "magic is SPEEECCIAL!" could totally apply to wishy-washy shit like sorcerers, but wizards approach magic like science. Such bullshit simply reeks when applied there.

Again, apologies, because this really is rather douchey, but is my honest opinion on the matter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 01:53:09 pm

Yes.  Extremely douchey.  I've been doing this for more than two decades and that attitude is one I know extremely well.

Whether magic is a science or not does not imply that the practitioner has sufficient data to make the jump from "I use incantations and material components to create fire." to "The nitrogen within bat guano is used as a catalyst for a small explosion."

Yes, they are intelligent and have studied to gain mastery over their craft, that DOES NOT mean that they comprehend every element of what makes it work.

This is compounded further by whatever the supposed cosmology of the setting is, in the Forgotten Realms for instance, there are exactly two ways to harness magic, either you have access to the weave through the goddess Mystra, or you have access to the shadow weave through Shar.  Those are very literally the only ways that magic functions in that realm, even wild magic is a product of the weave, and without the weave NO MAGIC, including shadow magic, functions at all.

Interacting with the world of the game is entirely through the actualization of the rules and setting by the DM, the DM decides what works and what doesn't, and sometimes that means you get a solid "NO" when you want to do something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 01:55:00 pm

The difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is that the wizard knows how the sufficiently advanced technology they're throwing around works. :p

Now though, all that applies only in a universe that has wizards and fairly consistent magic. If the magic happens to be intelligent, and likes messing with wizards to make them think That they understand the rules, you can have some fun~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 01:57:20 pm

Which is fine---  As long as the reason for the NO is world-consistent.

We get told NO in our universe all the time.  For instance, try to destroy energy some time. The universe says NO.

Why? it's a fundemental law.

The thing is, DMs dont really like obeying their own rules, that they invoke on the spot-- when it suddenly does not profit them.  If you institute a hard rule, you really do need to fully contemplate what its consequences will be, otherwise the world becomes inconsistent, and roleplay becomes impossible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 02:01:21 pm

Which is why my personal rule is this:

When you make a ruling it becomes LAW in that campaign, so you'd better have a reason for what you're doing and be able to explain it.

But then I don't ever go back on rulings to benefit myself.  The only reason I will repeal a ruling is that it negatively impacts the setting, and if I do repeal it, THAT becomes absolute.

So I agree, in principle, to your argument.  However, in terms of practice, there has to be a willingness to utilize the authority of the position of DM in order to keep the game functioning.  I have always felt that the sword cuts both ways, if you make any ruling it has to be an absolute for everyone, yourself included.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 02:12:41 pm

Which is a good policy to take!

The issue I most take beef with though, is the "Magic is SPECIAL" line of thinking, invoked because quite literally, the DM "Just does not give a fucking damn to think about all the fucking minutiae involved in using magic".

It is quite literally "No, magic goes in this tiny box-- YES, I know the source book says wizards are basically magical scientists, but clearly all wizards are idiots, and cannot devise experiments to know about the finer details of magic, and have never progressed their art, and will never progress their art-- it will stay in this box, and that is final."

When the better way, if you ask me, is to treat the "mystery" of magic and how it *really* works, as its own chance at exploration of that world-- every bit as valuable as exploring that cave is-- and just like how the wall of the cave dont suddenly change for no apparent reason, things players discover about magic should likewise not change without significant reason.

The creators of D&D tried very hard to give some flexibility in this same vein with metamagic (allowing spells to be modified based on some parameters)-- so clearly they did indeed intend for this kind of thing.

The bland insistence that magic is fundamentally unknowable? That is like claiming the force of gravity is fundamentally unknowable. And for the same reasons. Newton did not need to know about the Higgs field, or the standard model to create his early law of universal gravitation. He just needed to perform some experiments.  Same thing here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 02:19:29 pm

My standpoint on magic is the following:

Magic obeys its own rules, those rules are just as absolute as any other discipline, but are not beholden to normal physical laws.

So it is entirely possible to pursue a greater understanding of magic, but you'll never reach it by trying to be Steven Hawking.

Also, stop insinuating the content of my argument to be about simply accepting handwavium.  I hate handwavium.  I also hate pedantic 'rules lawyers', even when the rules they are adhering to are those of reality.  I hate them because I used to be one, then I spent twenty years in the DM's chair, and now I have a much better idea of how a game is supposed to function.

The vast majority of players and tables will never need to delve into the exact metaphysical properties of magic, and will simply accept what is written in the book, so my advice was aimed towards DMs handling that type of game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 02:22:42 pm

Applying the fine-grain knowledge of our world to a fantasy world does not make sense.

It SUPERFICIALLY works like ours.  Clearly, it does not work like ours under the hood, because it has magic, and incorporeal beings in it.

However, structured experiments for the player to discover how it works under the hood, then applying those discoveries, should not be forbidden.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 19, 2018, 02:24:07 pm

My take has always been that wizards do fully understand their spells.  The spells act literally as written, no more no less, and a smart wizard picks and uses these fundamental, unchanging building blocks to the best effect.  Metamagic helps a lot of course, particularly in 3.5 with splatbooks, but any wizard can also just create a new spell through research.  It takes time, effort, and money, but that's what it takes.

Compare to a system like Dungeonworld or, as I discovered last night, Star Wars: Edge of the Empire.  Even mundane actions like firing a blaster roll both "successes vs failures" and then "advantage vs threat".  The first represents whether your actions succeeds, the latter lets you or the GM "customize" the result.  So if I failed to hack a door open, but rolled a net of 3 "advantages", I probably could have suggested that a different door close to give us cover.

It's pretty fun, but took some getting used to.  It's a more cooperative RP where players are particularly encouraged to think up fun side-effects (or just pass on generic bonuses to their allies).  That's not how we play DND though, 3.5 or 5.  We tend to stick hard to the rules, except for long-established house rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 02:25:21 pm

Again, I agree in principle with your argument wierd, and I encourage such experimentation, when it does not negatively impact the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 02:29:10 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 02:22:42 pm

Applying the fine-grain knowledge of our world to a fantasy world does not make sense.

It SUPERFICIALLY works like ours.  Clearly, it does not work like ours under the hood, because it has magic, and incorporeal beings in it.

However, structured experiments for the player to discover how it works under the hood, then applying those discoveries, should not be forbidden.

What if I just want to run a fun adventure without having to worry about the lasting social and industrial implications of allowing gnomes to summon free rubber duckies once per day? If the GM would rather operate on "movie logic", they should not be beholden to creating a fully rational and consistent alternate universe!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 02:34:29 pm

Egan:

If gnomes can *insert arbitrary action* once per day, what is the limit on what that arbitrary action can be?

Why can't the gnomes just magic away all their problems?  Why do they even bother hiring an adventuring party to begin with?

See how an inconsistent world quickly falls apart?  Unless you explicitly *WANT* a world that has batshit crazy going on in it (like Discworld)-- being self-consistent is very important to successfully interacting with that world.

NFO:

Again, I would personally make it as painless for everyone as possible with a couple simple mechanics:
Borrow heavily from what you need to make a potion-- Materials, mental energy in the form of experience points, a place to work that is controlled, and a time slot to do it in.

Since wizards have to spend the night mentally prepping themselves to have a spell ready in their slot before bed, it automatically means either doing the experiment, or prepping their spell slots.  It also would come at material and experience costs.

I would further require a basic outline of the experiment in written form from the player, with a well stated hypothesis, based exclusively on already established information exclusively from that world.

EG, if the player wants to experiment with circumventing the distance cutoff with an area-bound spell with dimension door, he can easily test to see if that is possible or not under controlled circumstances; it will burn the spell use for dimension door, and that spell he wishes to test with. His reasoning may be that other effects are observed that would suggest distance behaves differently through the door (eg, a lightsource near an open dimension door is able to cast strong light at the distant exit of the door, as evidence by somebody looking through one without going through.)

Simple observations about things can be handled with a perception check. (somebody else makes and uses a door-- If the wizard explicitly tries to observe for interesting effects-- like the light stated earlier--- it's just a perception check, but it still gives him knowledge to formulate an experiment with later.)

etc.

What I am saying, is that it can be done in a way that is no more painful for the party than brewing a batch of potions is, or spotting a trap is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 02:36:49 pm

I'm about 50% with weird on that one, at the very least there should be a solid answer to 'why' if nothing else when you set things up.  You can still be ridiculous and silly, but there needs to be at the minimum a level of logical consistency to your setting.

So if your gnomes can create a rubber ducky from thin air once a day, you'll need at minimum a reason for them doing so.  Though you can throw out the most of the economic and social elements of your decision, you just have to have a justification that is acceptable 'in-world'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 02:42:36 pm

If the particular reason why gnomes cannot take over the world using an inexhaustible supply of rubber duckies is not important to the current story we're telling, and worldbuilding is not a concern, why should I need to provide an explanation? It's simply not relevant.
Discworld is a batshit crazy world because it DOES apply logic to all the crazy things that normal fantasy stories do. That's world-building, and attention to detail, and that's great! But not every world, not every campaign, not every playing group needs that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 02:45:15 pm

Okay, but here is the important question to be asking, "Why does their ability to create a rubber ducky even have a place in the world I am building, if it has no importance to anything?"

It's completely fine for them to have such an ability, but without 'why', it's just completely pointless fluff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 02:51:03 pm

Do halflings in your world have to explain why halflings are lucky? Kobolds why they get pack tactics? Hexblades why they get Cha to attack and damage?

At a certain point, "because the book bloody well says so" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 02:56:47 pm

Since halflings are not especially lucky in my world, nor do kobold get any form of special abilities, let alone something like the 'hexblade' even existing, there had better be a damn good explanation for any of those things.  And the book itself had damn well better be providing it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 02:58:27 pm

So this is all miscommunication. In order to have meaningful dialog about something, we kind of need to be on the same fucking playing field. Your snowflake world is not the same as someone else's mostly-RAW, which in turn is not AL.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:00:18 pm

That is the entire point of this discussion actually.  There need to be explanations of these things so everyone is on the same playing field.  Otherwise you don't have a game, you've just got a bunch of individuals playing make-believe.

And I'd appreciate it if terms like 'snowflake world' don't get used here, let's try to keep everything respectful please.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: milo christiansen on June 19, 2018, 03:07:09 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:00:18 pm

you've just got a bunch of individuals playing make-believe.

I hate to say it, but this is what an RPG is. The rules provide some structure so things don't get too crazy, but at the core an RPG is all about playing "make-believe" in an adult manner.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 03:08:09 pm

I mean, if you take D&D, strip out everything that you don't like from the book, and call the result D&D, I have no other words to describe it. It's basically an unpubished fantasy heartbreaker at that point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:13:23 pm

No.  What you have is a shared game of make believe.  The rules and setting exist to keep everyone in (as close as possible to) the same story.  So by definition not 'individuals' playing make believe.

@Mephisto:  Who the hell said anything about stripping out everything that makes it D&D?  5th ed isn't all of D&D, neither is 4th, 3.5, 3rd, second or AD&D, and in most of those the kind of abilities you're talking about and the class you named flat out didn't exist.  Not everyone is playing the game the same way.  Hell, they aren't necessarily playing the same GAME.

So if you really have to call it something, how about 'custom', as that doesn't sound like you're trying to belittle people for playing a different way.  And if you can't do that, maybe this thread isn't the place you want to be discussing this subject.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 03:19:47 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:13:23 pm

@Mephisto:  Who the hell said anything about stripping out everything that makes it D&D?

If you read what I said, you'll see that I'm not the one that said that either.

Quote

5th ed isn't all of D&D, neither is 4th, 3.5, 3rd, second or AD&D, and in most of those the kind of abilities you're talking about and the class you named flat out didn't exist.  Not everyone is playing the game the same way.  Hell, they aren't necessarily playing the same GAME.

You still haven't said what you're playing, so I'm going to assume GURPS. Yeah, the magic system in GURPS is way different. Now I understand why my D&D assumption was falling flat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 03:20:05 pm

In nearly all of those, the book gives at least a half-assed explanation already.

Kobolds get pack tactics because they are pack-oriented humanoid monsters.

Spoiler: Straight from the damn monster manual, 3.5e, pg 161, with emphasis (click to show/hide)

COMBAT
Kobolds like to attack with over-whelming odds-- at least two to one-- or trickery; should the odds fall below this threshold, they usually flee. However, they attack gnomes on sight if their numbers are equal.

Halflings are 'lucky', because they are small, quick, and perceptive.

Spoiler: Straight from the damn player's guide 3.5e, pg19, with emphasis (click to show/hide)

Halfing Racial Traits
+2 Dex, -2 Str: Halflings are quick, agile, and good with ranged weapons, but they are small and therefore not as strong as other humanoids.

Small: As a small creature, a halfing gains a +1 size bonus to AC, a +1 size bonus to attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are 3/4 of those of a medium character.

+2 racial bonus to Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks: Halflings are agile, surefooted, and athletic.

+1 racial bonus on all saving throws: Halflings are surprisingly capable of avoiding mishaps. **(Again, because they are agile, sure footed, and athletic, not to mention small, and hard to hit!)

...

Blah blah blah-- you get the damn idea.

Hexblades using Cha is in the same vein as Sorcs and Bards using Cha.  Sorcs and Bards use Cha because  their magic is shaped by their imagination/emotions-- or for bards-- the emotional states their music induces. For a hexblade, the emotional will to cause the effect on strike, manifests as the added effect in the strike, and thus its impact would be tied to the Cha of the character.

Like it or not, explaining "why" is pretty damn vital to being able to interact with a world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:23:18 pm

Snowflake world? How about a world that literally takes place on a plane in the shape of a snowflake....

@NullForceOmega: How about 'homebrew' instead of custom? At least that's the term I usually hear used for DnD type games.

As far as applying fine grain knowledge to the fantasy world, one could do that, but as has been mentioned, you need to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. That said, I didn't get the comment regarding fireballs and guano, the character doesn't have what knowledge about guano? That guano is flammable or fertilizer can be explosive?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:25:25 pm

I play lots of shit Mephisto.  I started with original AD&D when I was twelve and have ranged across a great many systems since then.  I usually play 3rd edition or RIFTS, and if you want my opinions on that I've already had two fairly lengthy rants on the subject, one of which isn't even that many pages back on this very thread.

And when the exact words you typed are:

Quote from: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 03:08:09 pm

I mean, if you take D&D, strip out everything that you don't like from the book, and call the result D&D, I have no other words to describe it. It's basically an unpubished fantasy heartbreaker at that point.

Then yes, you most certainly did say that.  Even if those aren't the words you used.

@smjjames: homebrew is common usage and completely acceptable here.

As for the guano, it more has to do with determining if there is reasonable cause for the character to infer that the bat guano is in itself flammable or if they simply know that it is the necessary material component of the spell as per wrote knowledge.  I'm not saying that they can't figure that out, but I'm not just going to take it as a given that they can.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 03:27:48 pm

guano is not itself explosive. At best, it burns really well.

To produce an explosive from it requires either a fortuitous accident (such as what happened with the invention of flash paper, after a chemist got his linen labcoat soaked by nitric acid, and then hung it to dry near a fireplace-- BANG!), or applied experiment initiated because of such an accident.

(in world, it could be that people cleaning out the guano noticed that materials it had soaked into were more flammable-- followed by alchemical/magical experimentation from a wizard to find out why.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:31:26 pm

@wierd: Maybe it's me, but being quick, agile, surefooted and athletic doesn't equal luck (though that's probably exactly what you're saying), it equals the agility stat or similar. Luck is just a boost to the chance to succeed/fail.

I have played RPG games, just not tabletop DnD, so, it's just my interpretation of the luck stat.

Quote from: Mephisto on June 19, 2018, 03:19:47 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:13:23 pm

@Mephisto:  Who the hell said anything about stripping out everything that makes it D&D?

If you read what I said, you'll see that I'm not the one that said that either.

Quote

5th ed isn't all of D&D, neither is 4th, 3.5, 3rd, second or AD&D, and in most of those the kind of abilities you're talking about and the class you named flat out didn't exist.  Not everyone is playing the game the same way.  Hell, they aren't necessarily playing the same GAME.

You still haven't said what you're playing, so I'm going to assume GURPS. Yeah, the magic system in GURPS is way different. Now I understand why my D&D assumption was falling flat.

Maybe it'd help if you asked which particular situation, like the particular game that he is doing atm that may have started this whole argument, or what he was talking about in the post you're referring to, etc.

@wierd: You'd have to go out of your way to make fertilizer explosive, yeah, just wasn't sure what NullForceOmega meant in that circumstance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:34:13 pm

This particular discussion began with a comment from weird regarding applying a scientific model to magic in general, it wasn't (specifically) aimed at any setting or ruleset.

His comment is in specific response to a D&D spell, but my response was generalized.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: scriver on June 19, 2018, 03:36:32 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:23:18 pm

Snowflake world? How about a world that literally takes place on a plane in the shape of a snowflake....

How about a Rime Western setting about the edges of such a snowflake world, which are constantly expanding out into the nothingness as more water is frozen, creating a neverending frontier for people to exploit?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 03:36:39 pm

"luck" is the perceived anomaly of success over failure an individual appears to have.

If a person is very perceptive, even unconsciously, they can evade a dangerous situation because they perceive the danger. This can be expressed as a bonus on the saving throw, etc-- which is how the book does it. 

Likewise, that same perceptivity will allow them to make connections or to intuit relationships that others do not realize or see. EG-- the halfling might be better at poker, because he can pick out unconscious facial expressions in the other player's poker faces.

"Luck" is the final, apparent product of the features cited-- Halflings get bonuses to a lot of things, because they are small, fast, good with their hands, and very perceptive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:37:42 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 19, 2018, 03:36:32 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:23:18 pm

Snowflake world? How about a world that literally takes place on a plane in the shape of a snowflake....

How about a Rime Western setting about the edges of such a snowflake world, which are constantly expanding out into the nothingness as more water is frozen, creating a neverending frontier for people to exploit?

Sounds like a very cool setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:42:13 pm

Applying a scientific model to magic could easily be 'technology so advanced that it's indistinguishable from magic'. Of course though, we're not talking about 20th century tech in a medieval setting type fantasty.

Pathfinder probably allows that since it's a post apocalyptic cyberpunky sort of thing. edit: And then theres spelljammer with it's magic fuelled spaceships that are literally sailing ships, I think.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:34:13 pm

This particular discussion began with a comment from weird regarding applying a scientific model to magic in general, it wasn't (specifically) aimed at any setting or ruleset.

His comment is in specific response to a D&D spell, but my response was generalized.

I guess the argument between you and mephisto was a side tangent? Seemed to have arisen from confusion somewhere I guess.... Anyhoo, moving on....

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:50:37 pm

I guess so.  Again, I was just giving some advice for DMs/GMs for when they have to deal with situations like that, it's pretty obvious that far more people read this thread than post in it, and I'd like to think that we can offer advice that might be helpful to them in their own games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: Arthropoid Martial Arts!
Post by: Gentlefish on June 19, 2018, 03:52:25 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 03:36:39 pm

"luck" is the perceived anomaly of success over failure an individual appears to have.

If a person is very perceptive, even unconsciously, they can evade a dangerous situation because they perceive the danger. This can be expressed as a bonus on the saving throw, etc-- which is how the book does it. 

Likewise, that same perceptivity will allow them to make connections or to intuit relationships that others do not realize or see. EG-- the halfling might be better at poker, because he can pick out unconscious facial expressions in the other player's poker faces.

"Luck" is the final, apparent product of the features cited-- Halflings get bonuses to a lot of things, because they are small, fast, good with their hands, and very perceptive.

Or, like in most fantastical settings, Luck is an actual but intangible "thing" usually bestowed upon mortals by divine beings. Either through modifying their "thread" into a better position in the weave or through other means world-related.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 03:53:06 pm

NFO basically was just lamplighting that there is a difference between what the player knows, and what the character knows.

Simply because I happen to know about nitrates, and their usefulness as an explosive precursor, does not mean that Wizzy McWizzface does. I fully accepted that, because it is quite apparently true.

However, it was not the argument I was railing against.  The argument I was railing against was more straw-manish (as NFO does not do it anyway, but many DMs DO): Treating magic as "Fundementally unknowable", and so, denying any attempts to understand why you need a fist full of dried peas to cast a certain spell--- etc. (pathfinder example.)

If you know why you need the fist full of dried peas, you can possibly do a substitution, or possibly even revise the spell so that it is not needed at all.  This alters the casting mechanic of the magic, through applied magical knowledge, which many DMs will forbid because it changes the mechanics of the game-- and also, "I dont like thinking about magic, I like swords and clobbering things-- so I invoke rule-zero on you because 'not fun!'" also rears its head.

I countered that Newton did not need to know about the Higgs field to formulate his law of universal gravitation (which was plenty good enough for several hundred years, until it was replaced by Einstien and general relativity, and then added to with quantum theory and quantum gravity-- through increasingly sophisticated and expensive experimentation)--- He just needed to do some simple experiments with weights and measures, and do some math.

Giving an explanation for why an experiment's outcome is a certain way is the DM's job, if the player wants to do the experiment. However, the results of the experiment must become just as real as fire being hot is; Something the player can then build on to learn or do other things. He and I agreed on that, as long as the process is not tortuous or joy-killing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:55:20 pm

Yep.  I agree with everything in the above statement, and I think we pretty much ironed out where we each stand on the subject.

Anyway, scriver, I expect a full workup on that setting on my desk by Monday, get to it. : p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:57:45 pm

Just out of curiosity, what specific spell are you referring to that needs dried peas or somesuch?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:00:43 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:55:20 pm

Yep.  I agree with everything in the above statement, and I think we pretty much ironed out where we each stand on the subject.

Anyway, scriver, I expect a full workup on that setting on my desk by Monday, get to it. : p

Technically I thought it up first, he just added detail and whatever Rime Western is. I guess Rime Western is just a Wild West type setting, except it's in the arctic or tundra.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:02:10 pm

Then make it a collaborative effort, you've both been drafted for project Snowflake Wastes. : p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:03:35 pm

Lol. edit: Got any good links on Rime Western? Google has absolutely no clue what I'm talking about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:05:40 pm

In all seriousness, if anyone does want to draw up a setting for public consumption, I'd be happy to put a link in the first post for them.

@smjjames: pretty sure you got it the first time, rime is just a term for frost and has been sort of generally applied to wintery things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on June 19, 2018, 04:05:51 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:57:45 pm

Just out of curiosity, what specific spell are you referring to that needs dried peas or somesuch?

Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm). Or maybe Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:12:05 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:05:40 pm

In all seriousness, if anyone does want to draw up a setting for public consumption, I'd be happy to put a link in the first post for them.

@smjjames: pretty sure you got it the first time, rime is just a term for ice/wintery things.

I thought you were referring to some sort of ruleset like the way Pathfinder is a ruleset.

Quote from: Kadzar on June 19, 2018, 04:05:51 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 03:57:45 pm

Just out of curiosity, what specific spell are you referring to that needs dried peas or somesuch?

Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm). Or maybe Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm).

Gonna note that it says dried, powdered peas, not dried and uncrushed like it was implied earlier. Seems like a subtle reference to 'pea soup thick fog'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:16:41 pm

Ever expanding snowflake realm doomed to inevitable summer thaw is a solid fit for D20/pathfinder mechanics, maybe generalized for D&D.  Lots of cold and frost themed monsters, spells, magic items.  A cosmology centered around constant cold, with a mix of cold uncaring and warm protective deities.  Perfect for hardened warriors and survivalist cultures.  A strong focus on salvage/recycling and an abhorrence of wasteful behavior.  This thing nearly writes itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.


---
Snowflake world:

Like nearly all cosmologies, it would gloss over the "primordial" misty air as "having always been", from which a shard of order spontaneously grows, and from which their world is born. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:19:15 pm

Could just be symbolism at work wierd, spells are a combination of physical and metaphysical elements, belief has as much power as substance.

Snowflake Wastes:

*From the last, cold, breath of the dying *creator* The Core formed, and from that deathly still place all of the first vanes spread, giving scant comfort to the drifting life that *creator* carelessly spread across the void."

Writes.  Itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:20:58 pm

Yes. I lamplit that.  The term is "sympathetic magic"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic

If it is merely sympathetic magic, than nearly any material with similar properties could be substituted without issue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:24:22 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 19, 2018, 04:25:13 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.


---
Snowflake world:

Like nearly all cosmologies, it would gloss over the "primordial" misty air as "having always been", from which a shard of order spontaneously grows, and from which their world is born. :P

Maaaybe?  And maybe any small bit of tinder could replace bat guano for a fireball?

But not in the thick of combat, I'd say.  A DND spell is about memorizing a very specific formula.  If you replaced flour with dried peas in a stew, it'd be a different stew, and in bread it simply wouldn't work right.  Unless you tweaked the formula ahead of time, with research.

Besides, people say "pea soup", not "floury fog".  Spells could be determined by common language/memes, heh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:25:44 pm

Goddamn it Prachett, why can't things ever be easy with you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:27:46 pm

You could very well substitute egg lumen, and call it Caustic Custard instead. :P

The point is that you invest some time before bed conducting an experiment to determine the nature of the requirement, so that you can better understand how it can be substituted, and what the consequences of the substitution would be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:28:35 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:24:22 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 19, 2018, 04:25:13 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.


---
Snowflake world:

Like nearly all cosmologies, it would gloss over the "primordial" misty air as "having always been", from which a shard of order spontaneously grows, and from which their world is born. :P

Maaaybe?  And maybe any small bit of tinder could replace bat guano for a fireball?

But not in the thick of combat, I'd say.  A DND spell is about memorizing a very specific formula.  If you replaced flour with dried peas in a stew, it'd be a different stew, and in bread it simply wouldn't work right.  Unless you tweaked the formula ahead of time, with research.

Besides, people say "pea soup", not "floury fog".  Spells could be determined by common language/memes, heh.

Needing to memorize a certain formula is certainly a reasonable argument against changing it unless the character did the research and prepared it beforehand. Plus you may not always want to try an untested experiment in a tough battle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:31:22 pm

Some mages would positively leap at the chance to test their pet spell changes in the thick of combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 19, 2018, 04:33:21 pm

I am actually disappointed that DND generally doesn't have flashy random spell failures.  You have to look to wild magic, or misusing magic devices.

In our group we partially rectify that with a deck of "critical failure" cards, which include ones for magic attacks.  It only comes up for spells which use an attack roll (which can also crit-succeed, people forget) but it has some really wild options.

My favorite was... IIRC... to roll twice from the Rod of Wonder table.  Our party and the three hobgoblins suddenly lost our equipment as it fell to the floor, ethereal.  Fortunately for our decency, we also all sprouted leaves.  I swear those were the rolls.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:33:33 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:28:35 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:24:22 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Son.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:33:42 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:28:35 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:24:22 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 19, 2018, 04:25:13 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.


---
Snowflake world:

Like nearly all cosmologies, it would gloss over the "primordial" misty air as "having always been", from which a shard of order spontaneously grows, and from which their world is born. :P

Maaaybe?  And maybe any small bit of tinder could replace bat guano for a fireball?

But not in the thick of combat, I'd say.  A DND spell is about memorizing a very specific formula.  If you replaced flour with dried peas in a stew, it'd be a different stew, and in bread it simply wouldn't work right.  Unless you tweaked the formula ahead of time, with research.

Besides, people say "pea soup", not "floury fog".  Spells could be determined by common language/memes, heh.

Needing to memorize a certain formula is certainly a reasonable argument against changing it unless the character did the research and prepared it beforehand. Plus you may not always want to try an untested experiment in a tough battle.

This is an argument revolving around the disparity of rote memorization, and actual knowledge.

A person with rote memorization can regurgitate that division by 0 is undefined.  The mathematician knows why, and what that means.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:35:25 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:31:22 pm

Some mages would positively leap at the chance to test their pet spell changes in the thick of combat.

Thus the 'may not always want', depends on the player and specific circumstance.

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:33:33 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:28:35 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:24:22 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:17:35 pm

Yes-- but what is it ABOUT the peas that makes them so fundamental to spell? Surely, some other thickener, like flour, could be substituted if it is merely a sympathetic magic component-- etc.

The casting gremlins consume the final products you throw in, and they have little DNA receptors on their tongues so if you use a thickening agent that did not come from a pea plant, they throw fireballs at you instead of casting mist.

Nanomachines, or perhaps micro.

Son.

Wut, did I ruin your joke?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:37:51 pm

If it's a choice between "You cannot cast that, you dont have the materials!"  and "You cast..... Something... vaguely, kinda like what you want, with these odd/unexpected consequences", and you REALLY REALLY need something to slow down the angry monster barreling down the narrow hallway...


I will take the latter, M'kay?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 19, 2018, 04:40:33 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:33:42 pm

Quote from: smjjames on June 19, 2018, 04:28:35 pm

Needing to memorize a certain formula is certainly a reasonable argument against changing it unless the character did the research and prepared it beforehand. Plus you may not always want to try an untested experiment in a tough battle.

This is an argument revolving around the disparity of rote memorization, and actual knowledge.

A person with rote memorization can regurgitate that division by 0 is undefined.  The mathematician knows why, and what that means.

In fluff, DND wizards cast (or "prepare") all their spells in the morning...  Except for a final triggering step.  That is why (in 3.5) they're able to apply metamagic so much easier than spontaneous casters:  They've already done all the work, so the final step for a typical spell is literally*NEARLY* as easy as swinging a weapon and shouting.

Edit:  This is why the character sheets list "spells memorized":  That is what they do every morning, memorize and prepare.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 04:40:40 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:33:42 pm

This is an argument revolving around the disparity of rote memorization, and actual knowledge.

A person with rote memorization can regurgitate that division by 0 is undefined.  The mathematician knows why, and what that means.

Of course, the "rote memorization" kind of knowledge is generally better for combat. If you're not casting a fireball for demolitions or science reasons, you'll want to be casting it fast, in which case you're better off learning the motions involved than having to think about magical theory every time you want to set someone on fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:43:59 pm

Having a good favorite is always good, but the actual knowledge comes in handy when you *must* improvise, or when you need to try to identify or negate a kind of magic. 

EG, an abjurer might not be able to completely stop a high level spell, but they might know enough to make it become harmless instead.


Rolan:

I am well aware.  I even cited this when I pointed out that this requirement is a natural limiter to egregious experimenting; If you force the experiment to always happen in that time slot, you force the wizard to forego his normal memorization regiment in order to perform the experiment--- etc.

Quote from: ME, earlier

Again, I would personally make it as painless for everyone as possible with a couple simple mechanics:
Borrow heavily from what you need to make a potion-- Materials, mental energy in the form of experience points, a place to work that is controlled, and a time slot to do it in.

Since wizards have to spend the night mentally prepping themselves to have a spell ready in their slot before bed, it automatically means either doing the experiment, or prepping their spell slots.  It also would come at material and experience costs.

I would further require a basic outline of the experiment in written form from the player, with a well stated hypothesis, based exclusively on already established information exclusively from that world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 19, 2018, 04:50:10 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 04:05:40 pm

In all seriousness, if anyone does want to draw up a setting for public consumption, I'd be happy to put a link in the first post for them.

@smjjames: pretty sure you got it the first time, rime is just a term for frost and has been sort of generally applied to wintery things.

Yes, I just combined the words to form a general description of the setting. Sort of like "Space Western". My feeling of the word is that it's specifically frost that forms from condensation around the edges on an object (like the ever expanding snowflake) and is probably directly related to the word "rim" (rime frost then being directly "edge frost"), and like a western it takes place on the edge, or frontier. Yes, I know, I overthink things.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on June 19, 2018, 03:55:20 pm

Anyway, scriver, I expect a full workup on that setting on my desk by Monday, get to it. : p

Sir yes sir! I'm mostly imagining lots of grim, grizzled people in heavy winter coats squinting at each others as their wintry breaths hang thick in the air and numbing fingers fumble for their revolvers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 19, 2018, 04:52:16 pm

I cant help but imagine grimdark Horton Hears a Who.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horton_Hears_a_Who!

In which our adventure closes, with the snowflake world, filled with hopes, dreams, ambitions--- landing on a pig-nosed and freckle-faced street urchin's tongue on a cold january morning.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 19, 2018, 05:38:25 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 19, 2018, 04:50:10 pm

Sir yes sir! I'm mostly imagining lots of grim, grizzled people in heavy winter coats squinting at each others as their wintry breaths hang thick in the air and numbing fingers fumble for their revolvers.

So like some sort of Frostpunk-flavored Deadlands? I think they actually did a sourcebook on that back in the Classic era. As I recall, Canada had been overcome by an endless spirit-driven winter held back only by magical train tracks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on June 19, 2018, 08:04:52 pm

On the subject of D&D magic: the core assumption of the system from the beginning seems to be less that they are made up of fundamental building blocks that you combine and more that they are predefined effects that mages have figured out how to access. The modern internet concept is to think of them as scientists, but it's probably more accurate to think of them as something like Kabbalists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah) or some other form of mystics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism).

This is most evident from the fact that wizards don't gain great power most easily by tinkering in a lab (as Ars Magika wizards do), but by delving into forgotten places to retrieve the secrets lost in them (aka finding and copying spell scrolls). The reason there aren't rules for mishaps for missing a component of a spell is that spells don't work on the basis of the interaction of different components; it's more like you're inputting a password for one of the fundamental laws of the universe. If you're missing a character, there's no way it's going to work.

Now, true, metamagic messes this view up somewhat. But, 1. it was first introduced in the AD&D 2nd edition supplement "Tome of Magic", which was well beyond the point of D&D's early development; 2. they were originally spells that, when cast, changed how your other spells worked; and 3. ignoring it's origins, metamagic fundamentally can only modify spells, not be used to create new ones. So metamagic can be thought of as more like setting adjustments that rather than rewriting code.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2018, 08:17:06 pm

I don't care for "magic system as a list of spells" anyway. One example where you can probably do better than DnD rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on June 19, 2018, 08:38:09 pm

And that's fair. But, yeah, D&D has a weird magic system, and weird things happen when people expect it to conform to magic system from most other works of fiction, but it really doesn't fit well. You either have to accept that or replace it, otherwise it can lead to disappointment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 20, 2018, 02:38:19 am

Rime Western sounds pretty great. You could get to some juicy stuff when you start asking what, exactly, the snowflake is expanding into. Some sort of void - but does that void have inhabitants? Untold horrors that hunger for the warmth of our world? Monsters and weird things would make the frontier even more dangerous and unknown. What about the psychological effect of living close to the very real edge of the world? Can you stare into the abyss? Is ’rime madness’ common?

And other stuff... Do areas closer to the center thaw and become warmer, thus making them prime agricultural land? Frontiersmen stake out and fiercely defend patches of frozen tundra because they know they’ll be rich and fertile in a generation. Everybody’s fighting for a better future, if they can just hold on long enough to see it... of course, in the Rime, most don’t. If the expanding areas also have valuable resources hidden in the ice, all the better.

Heat will be a vital resource. I’m imagining coal bandits attacking supply trains from the interior (or firewood caravans, depending on our tech level), communities built around great pyres or fuel storages, cities built on ’the sacred vapors’ used to heat the houses (really a pocket of natural gas they’ve learned to utilize).

I’m generally fond of a ’freezing winter hellscape where people nevertheless survive’ thing or aesthetic, so I kinda love this. Must be from living up north as I do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 20, 2018, 02:43:50 am

The way I saw it, was that the world is a sheet of ice, expanding into a sea of liquid-phase water as things gradually get colder. The reason why you live in the cold parts of the world is that where it's not cold, there's nowhere to stand...
^{_{And sea monsters, of course.}}

Don't ask me how you grow food or whatever on a landmass that's literally just a really big ice sheet. I'm sure something could be worked out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 20, 2018, 02:53:30 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 20, 2018, 02:43:50 am

The way I saw it, was that the world is a sheet of ice, expanding into a sea of liquid-phase water as things gradually get colder. The reason why you live in the cold parts of the world is that where it's not cold, there's nowhere to stand...
^{_{And sea monsters, of course.}}

Don't ask me how you grow food or whatever on a landmass that's literally just a really big ice sheet. I'm sure something could be worked out.

One option might be to feed some kind of large mammal from aquaculture at the ice sheet edge and move them inward for distribution. A sea cattle drive, if you will. (Yes, I know manatees are tropical.)

Actually, you could modify the ice sheet idea by having a planet undergo seasonal freeze-thaw cycles over much of its otherwise liquid surface. People could either settle the permafrost and bunker down every winter or move along either the freezing or thawing edge of the sheet where it's both walkable and habitable.

EDIT: Which would probably mean either using whale oil as fuel or inventing some kind of very flammable kelp. The latter might be a good way to keep people out of the warmer oceans and secure a supply of metal at the same time, if we use it as part of a basis for an ecology that supports thermite-breathing undersea dragons and thoroughly armored giant fish for them to eat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 20, 2018, 03:24:17 am

Well, the basis for my idea of there being habitable and non-frozen interior regions, with new land gradually 'thawing' as the world expands, is to justify the frontier nature of the Rime. To have a frontier, you need a part of the world that's not frontier. If the whole world's just one ice sheet, you're not talking about a frontier setting anymore, but a sort of... survivalist setting? You move from frontier towns and steadily expanding civilization to nomads just trying to survive.

I like underwater crops and sea cattle as ideas, though, so I dunno. You could merge the two.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 20, 2018, 03:29:13 am

Careful use of special farming (think, purposeful muskeg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskeg) production + permafrost, to produce something approximating farmland*) at the frontier, which is literally just the slowly crystallizing edge of the iceworld, could be an essential part of the economic activities of the ice world. (there being very strong pressures to supply both foodstuffs, AND places to live, for a growing population.)

Central regions of the flake could be ice-tower metropolitan in nature, with food/clothing/fuel production happening in the cultured permafrost settlements just inside the edge of the frontier. (If you examine snowflake morphology, several kinds of flake naturally produce central spire like structures at the center of the flake anyway. the tower could be naturally growing upward, (and downward at the bottom of the flake) just as the edges grow outward.

Spoiler: See CP2b type morphology in this handy table (click to show/hide)

(http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/class/nakaya2.jpg)

*You cannot grow much on solid ice. However, lichens, mosses, and the like can be convinced to grow in slushy ice, which can then form organic sponge that floats, upon which other things can be grown. This can be the foundation upon which a biosphere can be sustained, allowing civilization and culture. Materials to produce plant fiber based cloth could be produced from more complex plants raised in the floating organic sponge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 20, 2018, 06:39:09 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on June 20, 2018, 03:24:17 am

Well, the basis for my idea of there being habitable and non-frozen interior regions, with new land gradually 'thawing' as the world expands, is to justify the frontier nature of the Rime. To have a frontier, you need a part of the world that's not frontier. If the whole world's just one ice sheet, you're not talking about a frontier setting anymore, but a sort of... survivalist setting? You move from frontier towns and steadily expanding civilization to nomads just trying to survive.

I like underwater crops and sea cattle as ideas, though, so I dunno. You could merge the two.

I had supposed permanently frozen regions to be the not-frontier simply by virtue of being amenable to permanent construction. In the most Earthlike case, these would be circular regions centered on the poles, with the destination of our hypothetical frozen sea cattle drive being a stock shipping point near the edge of the permafrost. The aim of our ice cowboys, then, would be to drive the sea cows north along the receding edge of the ice every spring/summer to reach the edge of the permafrost while it's warm enough for the sea cows to survive, thence to load them onto the trains for delivery all along the ice cap. This would also justify boom town-style construction of anything below the permafrost layer, since it needs to move with the ice -- or float and survive the sea life, the managing of which could give us the feeling of a disappearing frontier.

Alternatively, one could set the orbital parameters so that the freeze-thaw cycle is arbitrarily slow and have the frontier move out from the equator as the world thawed. That might merge the two.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 20, 2018, 07:12:17 am

Drunken thought of the day:

So, magic users "cast" spells, right?

Quote

cast
/kɑːst/
an object made by shaping molten metal or similar material in a mould.
"bronze casts of the sculpture"

What if "casting" a spell is done by pouring a character's magic into a mould?

Each morning a wizard can prepare a certain number of moulds, which break when they pour their molten spellpower into the spell's shape and the spell releases.

A sorcerer instead has a smaller set of sturdy, reusable moulds.

I like this idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 20, 2018, 07:36:02 am

I always imagined prepared spells as little baggies that you e.g. throw (i.e. cast) or sprinkle at or on the target, perhaps after lighting a fuse or performing some other final step of preparation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 20, 2018, 08:47:21 am

I smell a RuneQuest hack.

Cast your runes out of cold iron. Cast those runes at the enemy. If the spell doesn't work, you still threw a hefty chunk of iron with sharp edges at them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on June 22, 2018, 10:24:20 am

I was suggested to post this here, coming from the Gaming Block (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110287.msg7790974#msg7790974) thread.

Quote from: Mesa on June 21, 2018, 06:32:29 pm

So there is this style of tabletop play informally called West Marches (https://knightssemantic.wordpress.com/2016/06/01/the-west-marches-a-style-of-dd-campaign-for-large-groups/) that I've been somewhat eager to try out running in some fashion or another - while it was coined for D&D play, the general concept seems easy to adapt to almost any theme, setting or system (which highly appeals to me as I'm not really into the idea of running D&D, 5e or otherwise).
The major difference here is that it would be more of a soft sci-fi/space opera campaign, as opposed to a high fantasy one.




Essentially, there's a relatively large group of people (as many as are willing to participate, basically) who organically explore the setting by picking where to go, who to go with and when to go, returning to the town (or space station, or whatever it might be) afterwards, and sharing the loot with the group, both tangible and intangible (rumors, areas to explore further etc.).
Basically, Darkest Dungeon but with (far) less eldritch horror.


"But River, how are you going to run a space campaign in D&D?", you may ask.


I don't, is my answer.
What I want to use instead (tentatively, at least) is either Open Legend (http://openlegendrpg.com/) or Genesys (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/genesys/), though I'm somewhat leaning towards the former as I actually have played it a bit already, and the legally free rules reduces the barrier to entry, and my conscious! Also makes it easier to run the game on something like roll20...)...Or even GURPS, but that seems like a recipe for disaster.


(The reason why I want to go with something generic like OL or GURPS as opposed to say, Starfinder, Star Wars or Stars Without Number, beyond the fact I have no experience with any of those systems and don't feel particularly compelled to try them, is to have greater flexibility, both for players' sake and my own. I'm not the biggest fan of crunch-heavy games, which might be in a bit of a contrast with some of the demographic on here...Maybe?)


On that note, what I wanted to do is use the forums for updates and general OOC stuff, but run the actual sessions in roll20 (if only because I think it'll be better for actually keeping me accountable, and make things progress a bit faster - but also make things like rolling be a bit more fair since I don't know how people usually do rolls when playing PBP games).




Would there be any interest here in such an endeavor?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 22, 2018, 10:34:49 am

Space campaign? Isn’t that what Spelljammer is?

Though really, the rules are the skeleton of it, the details (space campaign or whatnot) are the meat of it, to use a metaphor/analogy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 22, 2018, 10:43:52 am

Quote from: smjjames on June 22, 2018, 10:34:49 am

Space campaign? Isn’t that what Spelljammer is?

Spelljammer is quite literally D&D in (brazenly aphysical) space, though. It does not feel much like a space opera, and is built for 2e, I believe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on June 22, 2018, 11:07:16 am

Again, I don't want to run D&D, SJ or otherwise (nevermind the fact that it's a very strange mix of science fantasy, rarther than proper sci-fi or space opera).
I'm aware that the system maybe doesn't matter as much as the setting, but I feel like I'd have to homebrew and modify D&D a lot more than is necessary if I wanted to run a space campaign in it (Spacejammer or not), and I believe it's important to use a system that the group is at least moderately comfortable with.
The rules might be 'just' the skeleton, but it's probably a good idea if the skeleton fits the body it's put inside of and can actually support it, to continue that analogy. :p

_{(And yes, Spelljammer hasn't really been a thing since 2e (only had brief mentions in 3.x and 4e), though there's rumors of it coming back in 5e, if WotC would be so kind as to release a sourcebook that doesn't concern itself with a tiny-ass region of Forgotten Realms in the form of the Sword Coast, or Barovia on the Demiplane of Dread...)}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 22, 2018, 11:35:10 am

I love that idea. It sounds almost like another "west marches" Star Trek game I read about, albeit with a few differences.

The one I read, paraphrased:

Quote

You're on the USS Fubar, on a mission to explore the unknown. Every week, your ship encounters a new planet that needs to be explored. Maybe it's got unexplained phlebotinum waves, maybe there's a distress signal, maybe ~handwavy technobabble~.

Players decide if they want to explore. Those who say yes by the cutoff point go on the mission. They get full credit and whatever rewards would be appropriate. No one says yes? It's handled "offscreen", the bare minimum of info is phoned home to Starfleet Command, and no one gets anything.

Next week, new location with new problems.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on June 22, 2018, 01:03:52 pm

The planned framework/structure for this is meant to be along the lines of this:

Quote

In the aftermath of the war with the extragalactic invaders, a good chunk of the Milky Way is in disrepair and chaos. Pirates run rampant, there's wrecked ships and stations everywhere, contact with entire worlds and colonies has been lost. You were sent to this war-ridden region of the galaxy to cleanse it of pirates and leftover invaders alike, rebuild it, and bolster its defenses, to make sure it does not suffer the same fate again.


Each week, a number of distress signals will be broad from across the region to your home station. Some will have pretty clear goals/requirements, others will be more vague and require more investigation. Difficulty might vary, and not every mission might be equally easy to handle - but more difficult emergencies will yield greater rewards.


You can choose to respond to them and send a number of people on the mission, or let some other group handle the situation instead. You may or may not also end up encountering said groups on your missions, choosing to either ally with them or compete, gaining new friends and enemies this way.

Group size for any given mission might be anywhere between 2 and 6 (as a rough guideline, at least). I'd like to do this purely via text, so having a mic is not a requirement. I can handle running it at (almost) any time of the day/week, though I live in Europe (CEST/UTC+2), and am happy to take co-GM (or multiple) on board if there's enough interest and the group becomes large enough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 22, 2018, 01:19:40 pm

Yay Europe is good for Europeans like me

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 22, 2018, 02:08:42 pm

Open Legend would be good for something like this, although I should probably also mention something vaguely Powered by the Apocalypse if you want something very rules-light and flexible and free. Or FATE, I suppose, if you'd rather avoid the PbtA cultists (and I wouldn't blame you.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on June 22, 2018, 03:01:37 pm

Playing Pathfinder, I recently killed one of my own party members for the first time.

We were fighting a cult, and had decided to try pushing further into the dungeon despite the spellcasters being drained. We enter a room and get into a fight with six orcs. They aren't all that hard to beat, despite hitting pretty hard. A tougher rogue joins the fight, but just manages to hurt the monk/sorcerer/fighter multiclass badly before getting taken down. However, everything went wrong once the real boss fight showed up. It's this barbarian with a powerful swordlike weapon and a bunch of explosives. Our barbarian tries to fight her head on and gets stomped into the ground despite the bard reviving him once. Her grenades knock me down, but I'm playing as a gunslinger with this trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/never-stop-shooting/) to keep me conscious. The multiclass character also tries to fight her, but she outright kills him. The bard tries his last trick and just misses the sleight of hand check to trade out the barbarian's weapon for an oboe. At this point, a TPK looks inevitable. I'm at -7, our barbarian's bleeding out, the monk is dead, and the bard is about to be in a melee fight with the cultist barbarian, who's at about %50 HP. I'm trying to think of some way out of this, but I can only find one option.

I shot our barbarian dead, proclaiming my loyalty to the cult. Next session, the bard and I will have infiltrated the cult and ally with some prisoners to try and regain the upper hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 22, 2018, 03:57:11 pm

Why could the bard not try diplomancy?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on June 22, 2018, 04:06:05 pm

We hadn't thought of that, or maybe he just thought it wouldn't work in the context of the fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 22, 2018, 04:12:46 pm

Just say "Hey, dude, if you leave the cult and join us, we will give you lots of money, which we don't currently have".
Of course, I know little about the situation, and nothing about the bard, so maybe that would not work in the context of the fight, but shouldn't you have an idea of why it would not work in the context of the fight?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 22, 2018, 04:17:38 pm

Or perhaps rested so that the casters can 'recharge'? Then again, if the barbarian, who I assume is supposed to be the parties tank, got stomped hard, it's not clear that having fully 'charged' casters would have made a difference.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on June 22, 2018, 04:19:44 pm

Honestly, you're probably right. That would have been the better call, at least better than trying to secretly cause the barbarian to wield an oboe.

And if it didn't work, I could still always shoot my friend.

We had voted on if we should stop and rest, only the bard voted for resting. That probably would have made the difference, since at full strength the bard is good at shutting down people with poor will saves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 22, 2018, 04:29:33 pm

The real boss showing up unannounced could have been a factor since it sounds like you guys didn't expect the boss to show up yet and you did say that the six orcs you ran into wouldn't have been a problem with drained casters.

This is all in hindsight of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on June 22, 2018, 08:38:02 pm

Haha, that was an entertaining read. Sounds like a fun session to begin a fun campaign! Your character really needs to learn to hold his liquor... and his hallucinogens... and his secrets. :))
ICly, that is. OOCly all those poor rolls relating to substances sound like they were perfect for the character archetype.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 24, 2018, 04:55:54 pm

And for my next amazing prestidigitation, I shall place these Jedi... in a jaeger!

SO, I have this horrible idea for a campaign, Imma do Pacific Rim meets Star Wars.  It's gonna be awesome.  Really.  I promise this time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 24, 2018, 05:09:52 pm

Our first Star Wars Edge of the Empire session involved a driving battle with a slug *so large* it kept up with our stolen space taxi...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on June 24, 2018, 05:45:15 pm

I've been considering running an Age of Rebellion game. Since it and EotE are so similar, do you have any tips on how to keep things running smoothly?

Hell, I'll take any tips in general.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 24, 2018, 06:07:02 pm

Not really, sorry. We've only had one session and it was a big adjustment.

It was a lot of fun, though! Getting to add side effects, or suffer them, was a creative exercise.

Our GM did encourage us to prioritize attributes in chargen rather than skills or talent trees,  since XP can't be spent on them later. That turned out well: My Explorer-Scout had no skill points in combat, but with 5 agility (rodian for 3, then 40+50 xp out of 100) was pretty good at shooting. Then *actually* good at piloting and sneaking. The difference being an "upgraded" die which is necessary to roll triumphs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on June 24, 2018, 06:26:18 pm

Yeah, I was thinking of making that same point when I put out the recruiting call. Boosting attributes sounds pretty vital, since you need specific talents later on to increase them after character creation.

Did your GM restrict species choice to the core rulebook? Looking through the various supplements (and the different base games), it really looks like they're all roughly equal to each other. I'm looking for any reason to not allow players to basically pick whatever they want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 24, 2018, 06:44:03 pm

Nope, although there was a hard "no jedi" rule.  It was going to be core-only, but one of us wanted to play a Hutt for funsies, and that got us looking at a nifty PDF listing all races from all books.  We concluded that the races really are basically balanced.  Ended up with a Hutt, Mandelorian, and Rodian.  The differences generally seem pretty minor (and Hutts mostly have disadvantages, like expensive armor and inability to pay 2 strain for a second maneuver).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 24, 2018, 10:14:06 pm

This may strictly be infringing on copyrights (as in I own these books but the copyright notice says I can't transform them or put them in retrieval systems) but it's for personal use so I can't really be bothered to care.

So I spun up a new VM on my server and threw a document management system on it with the intention of organizing my RPG collection. Little did I know that OpenKM builds a text index of your documents and allows for easy searching. Boom, half of D&D Beyond right there, but for any RPG you may have. In fact, it may make the Shadowrun 5e books useful, increasing the likelihood that I might do something with them.

No links, because copyright stuff. It's pretty easy to set up yourself (or get your group's computer guy to set up) though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 25, 2018, 12:49:53 pm

The grand finale of Tomb of Annihilation is tomorrow. We are very badly underprepared.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on June 25, 2018, 01:08:27 pm

I still haven't posted about Free RPG Day a week or so ago, but apparently this Saturday someone is running a beginner-friendly Shadowrun game at the same place... I've always wanted to try it, tempting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 26, 2018, 08:48:55 am

So, what is the limit of Find Steed allowing you to cast any of your spells cast only on yourself also on your steed? Can I cast Sunbeam, and have two beams for the price of one?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 26, 2018, 08:58:43 am

Isn't Sunbeam an offensive spell? I'm assuming the above rule is to give the steed the same protections you give yourself, not to be able to double dip fireballs just because you target yourself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 26, 2018, 09:15:48 am

At the very least, you can cast Dragon's Breath on it and yourself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 26, 2018, 12:42:01 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on June 25, 2018, 12:49:53 pm

The grand finale of Tomb of Annihilation is tomorrow. We are very badly underprepared.

We freaking won. We had some plot armour that we didn't know about before the fight. Nobody died, except an NPC, and our fighter even managed to get through the entire campaign without dying.

Quote from: pikachu17 on June 26, 2018, 08:48:55 am

So, what is the limit of Find Steed allowing you to cast any of your spells cast only on yourself also on your steed? Can I cast Sunbeam, and have two beams for the price of one?

Only spells that target only you. Sunbeam can target as many creatures as are in the line.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Interus on June 27, 2018, 12:47:53 am

Well, I'm a few days late since I don't check these forums often, but I'm at least interested in that sci-fi campaign. I'm more interested in sci-fi than fantasy, but most of the people I know just want to play regular D&D, and the one time I ran a sci-fi campaign only managed to go for a few sessions. I'm in gmt-6 I think so I'm off by like 8 hours, but with the hours I work, that might be fine too. 13:00 here should be 21:00 there, which means I'd actually be available during the afternoon and evening if I want to wake up at a normal human time, instead of right before I have to go to work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 03:41:00 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on June 26, 2018, 12:42:01 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on June 26, 2018, 08:48:55 am

So, what is the limit of Find Steed allowing you to cast any of your spells cast only on yourself also on your steed? Can I cast Sunbeam, and have two beams for the price of one?

Only spells that target only you. Sunbeam can target as many creatures as are in the line.

Sadly, the infinite tower of centaurs cannot be used to create a synthetic sun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 27, 2018, 07:41:46 am

How do people rate giving a PC plot armor in a campaign?

As a background, one of my players has played the same character, once a week, almost every week, for over two years in my current campaign. He's gone from 1st level to 16th the hard way. I really don't want to kill him off permanently since he's done such a stellar job persisting with the character and really developing their story.

I wonder if I should allow a deus ex machina in the event of a TPK?

I've actually allowed this once before, but that was because the group attempted to assault the evil lair of one of the sin demons whilst their party cleric was absent that week.

After the TPK was confirmed and I called the session to a close that week, I opened the next week with everyone prepared with backup characters, but first I introduced the story of what happened during the combat when the cleric was away. The cleric's cohort had previously sold the soul of their firstborn child to a demon lord in exchange for freeing the cleric from the clutches of a dragon, and this time the cleric was given the choice to accept the deal made in exchange for the lives of all their companions. They accepted the deal, and saved their companions from certain death.

I dunno if I should do it again though. Kinda ruins the reward if there's no real risk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on June 27, 2018, 09:16:31 am

If there’s an epic tpk you could always work with the player to find out where his story would have gone and have him survive as an NPC, party starts over with fresh characters but might be able to rerecruit him if they run into him.




Or turn “unable to die” into some sort of monkey paw curse for the character

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 27, 2018, 11:52:37 am

If they die, they die.

If there's no risk there's no point even bothering with combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 11:59:41 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on June 27, 2018, 11:52:37 am

If they die, they die.

If there's no risk there's no point even bothering with combat.

If they die, offer a convoluted and painful path to resurrection.

If you don't inflict pain on your players at every opportunity, there's no point even bothering to DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 27, 2018, 12:40:12 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on June 27, 2018, 11:52:37 am

If they die, they die.

If there's no risk there's no point even bothering with combat.

You erroneously conflate a lack of PC death with a lack of risk. Provided you can make them care about something other than their own lives, threatening that thing gives you a motivating risk without the attendant paperwork and player idleness of PC death.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 27, 2018, 12:41:57 pm

Quote from: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 03:41:00 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on June 26, 2018, 12:42:01 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on June 26, 2018, 08:48:55 am

So, what is the limit of Find Steed allowing you to cast any of your spells cast only on yourself also on your steed? Can I cast Sunbeam, and have two beams for the price of one?

Only spells that target only you. Sunbeam can target as many creatures as are in the line.

Sadly, the infinite tower of centaurs cannot be used to create a synthetic sun.

If only I could be so

Grossly Incandecent

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 27, 2018, 01:18:54 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on June 27, 2018, 12:40:12 pm

You erroneously conflate a lack of PC death with a lack of risk. Provided you can make them care about something other than their own lives, threatening that thing gives you a motivating risk without the attendant paperwork and player idleness of PC death.

I doubt every fight can threaten all that they hold dear but not their own lives without getting really, really contrived.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on June 27, 2018, 01:55:57 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on June 27, 2018, 07:41:46 am

How do people rate giving a PC plot armor in a campaign?

They have HP.  That's about it.

I kinda dislike how 4th and 5th make it near impossible for characters to actually die.  They may fall in combat, but they never stay down.  And then they pop back up like loony tunes when the encounter ends.

On the other hand I accept that in Mutants and Masterminds plot armor is totally the default.  All damage is by default non-lethal and can only knock people out.  But that fits the whole comic book genre.

Quote from: Jimmy on June 27, 2018, 07:41:46 am

I wonder if I should allow a deus ex machina in the event of a TPK?

Its alright if its the climatic final boss fight or whatever and isn't a total ass-pull.  But honestly it should happen before the TPK actually happens, if the party is totally on its last leg and defeat is soon.

Last game I played in, one of the characters took in a pet worm in like session two.  It was a tiny maggot of sorts with a tiny human face and vague necromatic energies.  He kept it on his person all game and went out of his way to describe how he took care of it.

In the final dungeon as we got deeper the evil/alien magics poorly affected his worm.  We were losing the final battle pretty badly up until the worm evolved pokemon style into gyarados a purple worm and tried to strangle a dragon.

Speaking of which, I had two character deaths (one resurrection) in that game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 27, 2018, 02:19:09 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on June 27, 2018, 01:55:57 pm

I kinda dislike how 4th and 5th make it near impossible for characters to actually die.  They may fall in combat, but they never stay down.  And then they pop back up like loony tunes when the encounter ends.

4th, maybe. I only played a few sessions.

5th? Most definitely not. If the DM lets the party take an uneventful short rest in the middle of a dungeon after every boo-boo, that's on the DM, not the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 02:22:28 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on June 27, 2018, 07:41:46 am

How do people rate giving a PC plot armor in a campaign?

As I said before, the job of the DM is to cause the characters grief and pain in order to keep them interested in bettering themselves and the world. So plot armor should be applied when keeping the character alive is more interesting to the story or generates more suffering than just outright murdering them.

Killing players keeps everyone ready and on edge, saves them from getting complacent and can make them plan and scheme much harder than normal. You need to let players die when they do something stupid or when they intentionally take the reckless high risk path.

However, there's a lot to be said for creatively sparing people. Changing the last blow to non-lethal damage so that the big-bad knocks the character unconscious and then gates out with them as a captive can create a far greater complication for a party than just executing them on the spot. In one of my campaigns, the ninja trying tail winged-serpent samurai with five levels and a size class over her epically failed their move silently check and ended up trying a direct confrontation. The rest of the party was busy herding the contents of a village into the woods before the could be enslaved or massacred (depending on which clan of the winged-serpent folk got there first) and the result of the battle was kind of a foregone conclusion. In that case, I had the winged-serpent dodge everything the ninja threw at it, give a nice mocking speech about how it didn't even want its servants to have to debase themselves to cleaning the blood of such trash from its blade, and just had him sunder the Ninja's weapons, knock them unconscious with the back of their sword, shatter both their legs, and just leave them to die.

Yes, the ninja should have died. However, by letting them live their character gets a personal grudge and the party gets a better understanding of the kind of enemy they're facing. Not to mention they had to find a way to fix the Ninja's legs since I made the damage too extensive to be fixed by standard healing.


When about to kill a player, ask yourself this question: Is there a way that them surviving would be worse for the party/more interesting for the story? If so, strongly consider nudging things in that direction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 27, 2018, 02:58:23 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on June 27, 2018, 01:18:54 pm

I doubt every fight can threaten all that they hold dear but not their own lives without getting really, really contrived.

Oh, it's easy: mind control their friends and families and make them fight against them. Make it so that they're able to save some persons and/or valuables from a burning building, but not all. Or even use the simple but classic hostage situation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 27, 2018, 03:39:08 pm

Again: every fight and it's going to get really contrived.

I'm not saying it can't be done. Quite the opposite. But not every battle can have their friends and family kidnapped, mind controlled, or stuck in a burning building.

Sometimes when a skeleton stabs you to death, you're just stabbed to death by a skeleton.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 27, 2018, 03:57:03 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on June 27, 2018, 03:39:08 pm

Again: every fight and it's going to get really contrived.

I'm not saying it can't be done. Quite the opposite. But not every battle can have their friends and family kidnapped, mind controlled, or stuck in a burning building.

Sometimes when a skeleton stabs you to death, you're just stabbed to death by a skeleton.

You don't need mind-controlled friends and family to establish that if the PCs fail a given fight they irrevocably fail their objective. You just need all your fights to have a point to them beyond XP and loot and violence.

Not that fighting for the sake of fighting is bad, mind you, and if that's your bag than a risk of PC death makes sense. It's just not the only way to do violence in games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on June 27, 2018, 04:03:58 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on June 27, 2018, 02:19:09 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on June 27, 2018, 01:55:57 pm

I kinda dislike how 4th and 5th make it near impossible for characters to actually die.  They may fall in combat, but they never stay down.  And then they pop back up like loony tunes when the encounter ends.

4th, maybe. I only played a few sessions.

5th? Most definitely not. If the DM lets the party take an uneventful short rest in the middle of a dungeon after every boo-boo, that's on the DM, not the game.

This is very important in my opinion. Short rests after every encounter should be discouraged, especially during more dangerous areas/important times. Don't harass them constantly, but if they try to take a nap after combat in a densely-populated dungeon then have the dungeon inhabitants take the fight to them instead of quietly waiting in their boxes for their turn

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on June 27, 2018, 04:16:56 pm

Quote from: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 02:22:28 pm

As I said before, the job of the DM is to cause the characters grief and pain in order to keep them interested in bettering themselves and the world.

Quote from: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 11:59:41 am

If you don't inflict pain on your players at every opportunity, there's no point even bothering to DM.

I know I'm on Bay12 which is home to the most sadistic gamers on planet Earth, and maybe I'm just bad at picking up sarcasm, but to me that feels like a surefire way to completely desensitize your players to all that "pain and suffering" and actually make them stop caring.


You really need thes ups and downs, a sense of ebb and flow if you want to avoid that sort of burnout IMHO. Easy victories and low-risk periods have as much of a reison d'etat as periods of struggle and stress. There's a reason most movies, stories and games which try to make you care about the world and characters don't put you through constant pain and suffering at literally every opportunity - some do it more than others, yes, and that helps set their tone, but even they give you some respite before proceeding to the ass-kicking.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 27, 2018, 05:03:49 pm

The correct style of DM is the one that best satisfies the table, including the DM themselves. If the player group craves hyperlethality and being spanked over and over again, then have it. The only problems are when a DM tries to enforce a style that is radically incompatible with the group and won't relent when signs of dissatisfaction start.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 05:16:52 pm

Quote from: Mesa on June 27, 2018, 04:16:56 pm

Quote from: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 02:22:28 pm

As I said before, the job of the DM is to cause the characters grief and pain in order to keep them interested in bettering themselves and the world.

Quote from: Draignean on June 27, 2018, 11:59:41 am

If you don't inflict pain on your players at every opportunity, there's no point even bothering to DM.

I know I'm on Bay12 which is home to the most sadistic gamers on planet Earth, and maybe I'm just bad at picking up sarcasm, but to me that feels like a surefire way to completely desensitize your players to all that "pain and suffering" and actually make them stop caring.


You really need thes ups and downs, a sense of ebb and flow if you want to avoid that sort of burnout IMHO. Easy victories and low-risk periods have as much of a reison d'etat as periods of struggle and stress. There's a reason most movies, stories and games which try to make you care about the world and characters don't put you through constant pain and suffering at literally every opportunity - some do it more than others, yes, and that helps set their tone, but even they give you some respite before proceeding to the ass-kicking.

Ah, but that's the job of the players. When the players actually win, you let them have their victory and you don't spoil it- but you need to give them a world that needs those victories. Pain comes in many flavors, and a good DM is remiss if they just attempt to crush them with the stick of starving orphans and rapist murder-barons who laugh and snark constantly. I think you misunderstand me, and attribute to narrow a definition to the word 'pain'.

Give players the pain of being weak- struggling to better themselves, finding victory and meaning in becoming strong enough to stand against the forces that once dominated them.

Give players the pain of being powerful- struggling to protect the things close to them, finding victory in defending those who cannot defend themselves.

Give players the pain of being alone- struggling to find connection and meaning amongst alien beings and distant horizons, finding victory in understanding their world and finding either a way home or a way to make this strange place home.

Give players the pain of being connected- struggling to balance laws and morals amidst a web of allies, enemies, and intrigue, finding victory in the becoming part of something bigger without selling who they are.

Give players the pain of being meaningless- struggling to find a place in world which seems to have no need or want of them, finding victory in carving out a niche where they belong.

Give players the pain of being responsible- struggling to fulfill their obligations in the face of adversity, finding victory in staving off failure to another dawn.

Life is pain. Sometimes it's the dull ache of failing a friend, or the sharp and acid burn of feeling a coward, but just as often it's the dull joint-ache of knowing that you have duties which you cannot shirk, or the frenetic jaggedness in your skin when you feel like you know you're doing as well as you can but dread the failure you cannot see. If you're very lucky indeed, then it might even be the sweet, sharp pain of being truly happy, and knowing that it cannot last.

The job of the DM is to craft pains and hardships, so that the players may rise above them. What kind of pain, and in what measure, is the art of being a good DM- and varies wildly depending on who you're playing with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 27, 2018, 05:47:53 pm

Quote from: Dorsidwarf on June 27, 2018, 04:03:58 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on June 27, 2018, 02:19:09 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on June 27, 2018, 01:55:57 pm

I kinda dislike how 4th and 5th make it near impossible for characters to actually die.  They may fall in combat, but they never stay down.  And then they pop back up like loony tunes when the encounter ends.

4th, maybe. I only played a few sessions.

5th? Most definitely not. If the DM lets the party take an uneventful short rest in the middle of a dungeon after every boo-boo, that's on the DM, not the game.

This is very important in my opinion. Short rests after every encounter should be discouraged, especially during more dangerous areas/important times. Don't harass them constantly, but if they try to take a nap after combat in a densely-populated dungeon then have the dungeon inhabitants take the fight to them instead of quietly waiting in their boxes for their turn

Well yeah, if they try to rest in a place where (or when) it doesn't make sense for them to rest as if it was real time, they should get interrupted or worse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 27, 2018, 05:58:46 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on June 27, 2018, 07:41:46 am

snip'd

While the above conversation on the mortality of PCs and the ramifications of their death and suffering is interesting, I'm going to actually address Jimmy's post.

This is D&D, it has a spell called "resurrection", and an even more impressive version called "True Resurrection", which allow you to bring dead people back to life.  If you've got a sixteenth level PC that just bought it, there may very well be interested parties who would very much like to bring that person back, either to exploit them or because their interests align.  There are any number of methods at your disposal as DM if you think a PC deserves another chance (or just the ability to continue their story.)

Don't get so caught up in the rules that you forget that you're building a story, if there can be reasonable justification for the PC or party to come back, then that's fine.  Just make sure you consider the consequences of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 28, 2018, 05:23:54 am

I'm probably going to run a Rime Western game here as play-by-post (with the spiffy name of 'The Rime: A Frostpunk Western RPG'), because the idea continues to roll around in the back of my head. Now, it's my own spin on the concept, but it retains the 'steadily expanding frontier', 'grim people in heavy coats fumbling for their revolvers with frostbitten fingers' core aspects, at least. The world's not an ice sheet, but rather simply covered by an icy and seemingly endless black sea. The sea level is continually falling, revealing ever more land to be settled - but this land is so cold from the embrace of the sea it can't sustain any crops for at least a generation. As the seas recede and the edge of the frontier moves out, these lands gradually warm up and nature spreads in from inland.

So, we get a frontier of ice and snow, and a nifty reason for settlers to be coming here (claiming land that will be worthwhile if you just hang on long enough), but we still get an inner region of the world that produces industry, food and city slickers.

The sea's not entirely lifeless, though. Edible kelp, hardy sea creatures and native Mer have existed there quite fine for millennia. The Mer (your basic aquatic humanoid people) are faced with losing their homes to the merciless growth of land. They can move deeper to rebuild or try to live on land (where they survive alright, when they can regularly access water). Some have taken to attacking human settlers, figuring they're to blame for the sea levels falling. There's some pretty obvious parallels to real history here, I realize now. Sea cattle are an important food source, too - ranchers drive herds of 'em up and down the edges of the Rime and through artificial canals inland to be slaughtered.

There's all kinds of stuff I want to do here, but that'll wait for the game. Mechanically, I'll handle things with a d20 system. Things are intended to be pretty brutal and unforgiving. Characters will die without a heat source at night. Combat very easily kills, so you'll want to be the first one to draw and fire. There's no HP system, but rather Wound levels, where attack rolls can result in glancing hits, wounds, severe wounds or death depending on degrees of success. There's some things to offset this, so the game's not outright murderous towards the players, but I feel it's a good way of representing the harshness of life in the Rime.

The physics or metaphysics of the world raise a lot of questions, sure, but I've tried to make something internally consistent. It's an alternative world, so it's all good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 28, 2018, 06:22:59 am

Sounds cool. Makes more sense to me that there's actually land, since I feel civilisation advanced enough to give that frontier feel would be unlikely to develop on an ice sheet. No metals really, after all.

How do the ranchers herd aquatic creatures?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Interus on June 28, 2018, 08:13:01 am

Well the "Massive snowflake crystallizing the void into matter" idea is already crazy magical, so if you were going with that, then you'd just say that the gods made metal.

I like the receding sea level too though. There's a lot you can do with that. If the Mer build structures, there would be probably be all kinds of previously submerged structures dotting the landscape, and not everybody would have been willing to stay behind and take care of those. Instead of artificial canals, or in addition to those, you could have deep cracks in the land that also provide water passage further inland. You've clearly thought about the cowboy aspect, but you might consider trappers too. Everybody needs fur, and from what I remember of history class (which was longer ago than I like to think about), trapping brought a lot of people to the Canadian frontier. You could borrow a lot from mountain men and the fur trade in addition to just cowboys. Actually, just stealing from Canadian, American, and Mexican history, there's a massive amount of inspiration available. Not to mention all the movies, songs, and books. Actually, I'm a little bit mad now that there aren't more rpg's set in frontiers like this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 28, 2018, 08:42:58 am

Or you can liberally steal from other settings.

Shard RPG, for instance, is set on a world with no metal. Instead, people use this crystal that forms in the mountains. Given the frozen setting being discussed, super-ice being worked into tools could make sense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 28, 2018, 08:55:50 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on June 28, 2018, 06:22:59 am

How do the ranchers herd aquatic creatures?

A combination of lures and good old-fashioned wrangling, I figure. They use chemical/natural lures to bring the herds close to shore, then rope the lead animal and drive it where they need it to go. The rest of the herd follows that one all the way right to the slaughter. I imagine the sea cows (who deserve an actual name) are big, strong animals, so it takes a lot of men to keep one contained. I guess you could have men in boats holding a perimeter around the herd, too. Probably not a great job, since the sea is lethally cold to humans and the sea life might tip a boat over. Their job might also be to keep away predators that might disperse the herd. Enterprising ranchers would hire Mer for this job instead, I imagine.

Quote from: Interus on June 28, 2018, 08:13:01 am

I like the receding sea level too though. There's a lot you can do with that. If the Mer build structures, there would be probably be all kinds of previously submerged structures dotting the landscape, and not everybody would have been willing to stay behind and take care of those. Instead of artificial canals, or in addition to those, you could have deep cracks in the land that also provide water passage further inland. You've clearly thought about the cowboy aspect, but you might consider trappers too. Everybody needs fur, and from what I remember of history class (which was longer ago than I like to think about), trapping brought a lot of people to the Canadian frontier. You could borrow a lot from mountain men and the fur trade in addition to just cowboys. Actually, just stealing from Canadian, American, and Mexican history, there's a massive amount of inspiration available. Not to mention all the movies, songs, and books. Actually, I'm a little bit mad now that there aren't more rpg's set in frontiers like this.

Indeed. I'm not sure what the trappers would trap, hmh. There could be amphibious sea life that comes on land or is stranded on it, at least, or maybe animal life native to the Rime that keep migrating outwards as the Rime expands (polar bears and such?). It would make the wilderness a more interesting place in-game, for sure. The thought of everyone being decked out in gloriously white polar bear pelts is also fairly cool.

Natural 'rivers' (uh, ex-oceanic trenches?) might make more sense than artificial canals. You could end up building slaughterhouses where they end, rather than going through the massive effort of constructing the canals. I imagine particularly ambitious ranchers would build them, though, or even artificial lakes inland to keep their sea cows in.

If the sea near the shore freezes over, that opens some more possibilities, both for trappers and cowboys. You could trap/fish through the ice, maybe drive the herds by walking on the ice and stomping on it while they're beneath or such, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 28, 2018, 09:13:21 am

What about a reason for the falling sea levels? Like an advancing ice age? Could be another reason for the expansion to new lands since they're getting pushed out by advancing glaciers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 28, 2018, 10:33:31 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on June 28, 2018, 08:55:50 am

I imagine the sea cows (who deserve an actual name)

Kelpers

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 28, 2018, 10:38:19 am

Quote from: smjjames on June 28, 2018, 09:13:21 am

What about a reason for the falling sea levels? Like an advancing ice age? Could be another reason for the expansion to new lands since they're getting pushed out by advancing glaciers.

I don't know how much we really want to delve into the why of the setting; the whole concept sacrifices a degree of physical/meterological accuracy for the sake of style anyway, so trying to force it to make sense beyond what's player-facing is probably going to end in frustration.

So why not have the trappers trap penguins and walruses and polar bears all at once, and maybe train seals to act like sheepdogs to herd the hydrokine (or whatever "sea cows" end up being called) around, all in service to settling a receding ocean that's curiously slow to warm?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Interus on June 28, 2018, 12:30:40 pm

When I was talking about trapping, I was actually picturing giant beavers, and imagined them building huge dams in the trenches. Of course, the big problem with that is that there probably aren't massive forests in this formerly underwater tundra. Though they could make the dam out of chunks of ice, because the more ice the better. I actually didn't think of wolves and bears, which I consider sort of standard for enemy wildlife, until after I considered giant versions of beavers, muskrats, ermines, and rabbits. There might also be moose or caribou, woolly bisons or mammoths, and maybe saber-toothed tigers, since there should be at least one big cat. Polar bears are great though.

A lot of those probably couldn't survive normally in your world. If the place is big enough, they might survive on the inner edge of the frontier. I'm assuming there's a lot of uncultivated land that's reached the point where it can support extensive plant life, instead of just moss and shrubs. Still, there's a lot of places in the world that aren't particularly hospitable but have a lot of wildlife.

Maybe I'm too worried about the ecology and environment, but I was playing with the idea of a bounty hunter who's philosophy is that the environment is a much more dangerous opponent than any outlaw. Also, I imagine he looks like the old bounty hunter in Hateful 8.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 28, 2018, 12:36:14 pm

Quote from: Interus on June 28, 2018, 12:30:40 pm

When I was talking about trapping, I was actually picturing giant beavers, and imagined them building huge dams in the trenches. Of course, the big problem with that is that there probably aren't massive forests in this formerly underwater tundra.

Well, why shouldn't some kind of kelp grow tough, tree-like stems to better resist breakage and predation, or even seal itself against salt water well enough to support itself in air? It's a stretch, but as I said, so is the whole setting; as long as we're having these massive changes in sea level, kelp trees aren't the craziest things they could expose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 28, 2018, 07:22:50 pm

You could do like most sci-fi conversions of fantasy tropes do, and just slap genre-specific descriptors onto the front of standard material, then call it a day.

Examples:
Space-goblins
Space-dragons
Space-wizards
Space-demons
Space-magic
Space-dungeons
Space-guns
Space-murderhobos

Replace "space" with "sea" and you're set for your underwater game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: smjjames on June 28, 2018, 07:37:25 pm

It's not underwater though, and the players would either have to be mermen or otherwise using some sort of protective gear to go into water cold enough to kill a human in minutes. So, going underwater in digital hellhounds idea of a game would be all but ruled out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 29, 2018, 01:25:20 am

Quote from: Interus on June 28, 2018, 12:30:40 pm

Maybe I'm too worried about the ecology and environment, but I was playing with the idea of a bounty hunter who's philosophy is that the environment is a much more dangerous opponent than any outlaw. Also, I imagine he looks like the old bounty hunter in Hateful 8.

Well, I mean, the hostility of the environment is a key part of the setting, so that’s perfect. On that note, any ideas how to make survival in the wilds and the environment more interesting? Right now I just have different levels of temperature requiring extra fuel and impairing characters on failed rolls, plus your usual blizzards and wind and other winter weather. Would be cool to give it another aspect than just inventory management and rolls.

The Hateful 8’s snowed-in winter storm aesthetic is pretty perfect for this game, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 29, 2018, 06:05:29 am

If you're building a game around survival aspects rather than monster-bashing, you could take a page from the majority of survival games and include a crafting mini-game to grant players boosts to their ability to survive. Whether it be crafting a shelter, fire, food, or clothing, you could get them to roll for gathering units of resources, then skill checks to create an item out of them.

Resources ideas:
Wood
Stone
Ore
Food (meat, fish, plants)
Pelts
Scrap (may count as one unit of any base resource, +2 DC to find)

DC 10 to gather one unit, add one additional unit of resource per +5 you exceed DC 10. Each check takes 8 hours of work (chopping wood, hunting game, etc.) and failing checks to survive in the outdoors imposes penalties on your check to gather resources as you slowly freeze. Crafting the gathered items into usable material requires additional crafting checks and additional time and can affect quality.

Of course, the entire thing only works for players who enjoy a game that is basically all dice rolls and inventory management. This definitely isn't for every group. Could be mixed into a game with combat too, if you wanted.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 29, 2018, 07:33:22 am

Just to play devil's advocate here: if we're going to so thoroughly mechanize survival as resource management, we could probably make a computer game out of it and save a lot of math.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to make the players mechanically aware of how deadly the Rime is, but rather that the gathering of resources and so forth can be left in the background unless they happen to make good MacGuffins. There are certainly groups who would get excited they found three wood instead of two, rather than simply motivated to find wood because they haven't enough, but I would assume they're few and far between.

Now, having to negotiate with different groups who had those resources or access to them would be more resistant to being a computer game, but that might be at odds with the cowboy aesthetic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Interus on June 29, 2018, 12:24:45 pm

I think something like that system could work.
Maybe 4 hours, and it's more that each 1 unit could be a day's worth. So if you roll well, you've got enough wood to keep warm for 3 nights.
I wouldn't include stone unless you're specifically trying to build something. What I'm thinking is that most of the players would be the kind of people who travel often, or don't do their own construction, so I wouldn't want these checks to take all day. I'd also make finding game more interesting though. A check to see if you find something, DM decides (maybe rolls on a chart, or 10 is small game, 15 and 20 are larger?) to see what you found, and you take the shot. Either you kill it, wound it and it attacks or runs away but is easy to follow, or miss it and it attacks or escapes. Then you get however much meat and a fur.
I suppose if you want to play a game where you just settle down and try to build a farm, that's fine. I know there's appeal to that, and for anybody interested, there's a game called UnReal World which is a survival game in Iron Age Finland which is basically all of that. Farming, hunting, fishing, gathering berries and mushrooms, building various shelters, and panicking while trying to build a fire because the ice cracked and you barely made it back to shore.

I think of the survival aspect as something you do while investigating what's been killing seacattle and leaving eviscerated corpses on the shore, or while tracking down Flintless Dave, who kills people after they've set up camp so that he gets their valuables and a warm place to sleep. That and specific situations like when you notice a blizzard is coming in and you've gotta either weather it outdoors, requiring turning your sled into a shelter and having enough food and wood, or remember that you know a farmer or rest stop nearby and impose upon them to let your group stay there. Maybe they've got enough food, and hopefully everybody can keep from killing each other before the storm passes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on June 29, 2018, 12:48:02 pm

Wandering nomads on the edge of the ice sheet seems like a plausible way of life based on fishing off the edge and hunting creatures.

There could be a variety of amphibious monsters that need to come up for air or beach occasionally, and land based monsters that exist on the edge to hunt the sea based ones for the party to hunt. So like seals and polar bears in the Arctic, or it could be the opposite and be like seals and penguins in the Antarctic Sea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 29, 2018, 12:56:30 pm

Something like Torchbearer, then, where resources are a way to trade encumbrance for endurance (time away from camp, in this case)?

I could see that working very well, provided it were abstracted down to food and fuel. One unit of food feeds one person for one day; one unit of fuel staves off hypothermia for one person for one night. One unit of either takes up one slot of encumbrance and so forth. Then it's simply a matter of keeping the party away from the wagons and/or base camp too long.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on June 29, 2018, 02:22:56 pm

Well, my OL sci-fi West Marches game thread is finally up, for those who are/said they were interested. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171213.0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 01, 2018, 10:57:17 pm

The guy who did our Demons campaign is running again tomorrow.
Gods help us.  It's going to get weird again.

I would say more, having just had a semi-drunk character jam in the Mythos pile, but this isn't a secure channel.
We're just working for the EPA, in NWoD, that's all.  We're definitely not going to be vampire thralls.

And we definitely won't have weird tragic backstories.  “Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.” - Terry Pratchett

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 02, 2018, 12:58:31 pm

Speaking of things getting weird, I've started a local "weird RPGs" group. First session won't be for a few weeks.

For an intro to the weird, I was thinking Shard RPG. I've talked about it a few times around the forums.

Spoiler: What is Shard? (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/kovYQVp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hzv2lfj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/z2Fqbfl.jpg)

My favorite quote comes from someone's review on YouTube. "Birds... don't have... boobs."

Or maybe I should go with something more "traditionally" weird?

Barbarians Versus - play as barbarians. Reptile aliens abducted people and forced them to work in the mines. You've got to go kill them for honor and loot.
Exiled in Eris - schizotech sci-fi western Indiana-Jones sword-and-sorcery. How's that for word salad?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 02, 2018, 01:54:49 pm

It's one thing to have 5 pistols, but that sugar glider should figure out a way to wield them all at once, or else they just seem like dead weight to get in the way of gliding to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Draignean on July 02, 2018, 02:03:14 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 02, 2018, 12:58:31 pm

Speaking of things getting weird, I've started a local "weird RPGs" group. First session won't be for a few weeks.

For an intro to the weird, I was thinking Shard RPG. I've talked about it a few times around the forums.

Spoiler: What is Shard? (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/kovYQVp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hzv2lfj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/z2Fqbfl.jpg)

My favorite quote comes from someone's review on YouTube. "Birds... don't have... boobs."

Those are the most magnificent breasts I've ever seen a frog endowed with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 02, 2018, 02:07:58 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on July 02, 2018, 01:54:49 pm

It's one thing to have 5 pistols, but that sugar glider should figure out a way to wield them all at once, or else they just seem like dead weight to get in the way of gliding to me.

It's not particularly evident in the pictures I shared but Shard is very Asian-themed and it's set on a world where the base physics only superficially resemble reality. He'll be fine.

Quote from: Draignean on July 02, 2018, 02:03:14 pm

Those are the most magnificent breasts I've ever seen a frog endowed with.

And, dare I say it, several humans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 02, 2018, 02:12:30 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 02, 2018, 02:07:58 pm

It's not particularly evident in the pictures I shared but Shard is very Asian-themed and it's set on a world where the base physics only superficially resemble reality. He'll be fine.

Isn't that just a greater reason to learn to quintuple-wield?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 02, 2018, 08:56:38 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 02, 2018, 12:58:31 pm

Speaking of things getting weird, I've started a local "weird RPGs" group. First session won't be for a few weeks.

For an intro to the weird, I was thinking Shard RPG. I've talked about it a few times around the forums.

Spoiler: What is Shard? (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/kovYQVp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hzv2lfj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/z2Fqbfl.jpg)

My favorite quote comes from someone's review on YouTube. "Birds... don't have... boobs."

Or maybe I should go with something more "traditionally" weird?

Barbarians Versus - play as barbarians. Reptile aliens abducted people and forced them to work in the mines. You've got to go kill them for honor and loot.
Exiled in Eris - schizotech sci-fi western Indiana-Jones sword-and-sorcery. How's that for word salad?

If you're looking for weird RPGs, I can offer some suggestions:

Spoiler: All of these are free to download (click to show/hide)

• Alien Earth (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/150506/Alien-Earth): Basically a post-apocalyptic setting where something (it's not really clear what) has happened to make Earth a strange, alien place.
• deadEarth (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/downloads-games/deadearth-resources/): Also a post-apocalyptic setting, this one has a major focus on mutations, which can randomly kill you during character creation.
• Encounter Critical (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/203877/Encounter-Critical-A-ScienceFiction-Fantasy-Role-Play-Game): A sci-fi game made to resemble very early, amateurish RPGs in rules as well as looks.
• Fleshscape (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/205832/Fleshscape): A game where everything is made of flesh, even the very ground you walk upon.
• Forgotten Futures (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/59415/Forgotten-Futures): A game meant to resemble sci-fi of the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century. It also has supplements, such as a complete space-based setting, Forgotten Futures XI: Planets of Peril (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86888/Forgotten-Futures-XI-Planets-of-Peril?src=hottest_filtered); Forgotten Futures X: The Tooth And Claw Role Playing Game (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/60326/Forgotten-Futures-X-The-Tooth-And-Claw-Role-Playing-Game?src=hottest_filtered) where humans and dragons coexist in a quasi-Victorian society; and The Original Flatland Role Playing Game (The Flattened Remix) (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/116964/The-Original-Flatland-Role-Playing-Game-The-Flattened-Remix?src=hottest_filtered), a world that exists in only two dimensions.
• Ghost Lines (http://www.onesevendesign.com/ghostlines/): A game where you work aboard trains that travel through lands inhabited by ghosts.
• Mazes & Minotaurs (http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html): A game that imagines what it would be like if early D&D had been inspired by Greek myth rather than Eurocentric fantasy, and also had more coherent rules. Here is the DriveThruRPG page (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/11095/Legrand-Games-Studio) for it, since I believe some of the newer supplements may not be on the original site. Also, here's the page for the original "1972" rules (http://storygame.free.fr/MM1.html).
• Searchers of the Unknown (https://archive.4plebs.org/dl/tg/image/1368/48/1368480942868.pdf): A very bare-bones version of D&D, with several dozen variants, which are mostly different settings.
• Septimus (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/63991/Septimus): A game that takes place inside a Dyson sphere. There's nearly a hundred pages of setting before you get to the rules, which is why I personally never bothered with it.
• Songbirds (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/234978/Songbirds): I'm not entirely sure what's going on in this game. I have read through it, but I'm still not quite sure what the player characters are meant to be. There are airplanes, but also the equipment lists swords and muskets, and everyone has a True Name. There isn't much explanation, and I think that might be intentional? Like, I think it's like some sort of rpg version of a poem, where you're meant to infer your own meaning. Or maybe it's Mad Libs. idk
• Talislanta (http://talislanta.com/): A weird fantasy rpg that includes no humans or any of the standard fantasy races. A while ago the original creator decided to give it away for free, and there are five different editions (http://talislanta.com/?page_id=5) to choose from, along with a d20 version and 10th anniversary one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 03, 2018, 03:39:03 am

providing a link to deadEarth without any form of disclaimer is a low blow, kadzar.

"Danger: Game sucks, Beavis"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 03, 2018, 03:40:08 am

I feel like "you might die in character generation" is close enough to a warning. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on July 03, 2018, 03:45:24 am

Isn't the same true of Traveller, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Liber celi on July 03, 2018, 05:40:24 am

Quote from: Mephisto on July 02, 2018, 12:58:31 pm

Speaking of things getting weird, I've started a local "weird RPGs" group.

If I had the time and logistics for that I would round up my most hardcore friends and run a HYBRID one-shot.
All the rules are printed out in a heap on the table and players have to dig around in there and try to find mechanics and argue why and how they apply. In case of rule controversy connecting your reading to the bigger right-wing nutjob conspiracy wins.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 03, 2018, 05:51:03 am

I said weird RPG, not bad RPG. I'm going to run the players through silly shenanigans, not run them off with the standard entries of a "worst RPGs ever" list.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 03, 2018, 03:00:25 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 03, 2018, 05:51:03 am

I said weird RPG, not bad RPG. I'm going to run the players through silly shenanigans, not run them off with the standard entries of a "worst RPGs ever" list.

Rolling up deadEarth characters, then playing them in an actually good system is always fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on July 03, 2018, 03:34:09 pm

You could always run them through FATAL character creation. That's plenty weird.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 03, 2018, 04:38:44 pm

FATAL is great to joke about, but its chargen is seriously so bad that it's not worth doing oneself.  I still recommend watching this LP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kesjVURL1U&list=PL44PbFidLGZ2zVR2pSozjtnJY1Z78RCRB) instead.  Note that it's 5 parts of ~40 minutes each, has timeskips, and *ONLY* covers generation of one character.  With snark, to be fair, but snark is literally required to enjoy FATAL sanely.

Almost all of character generation can be automated *, of course, because the player in FATAL makes no choices.  Do I mean "no choices in chargen?"  Not really.  Chargen includes rolling various aspects of your character's personality.  You're supposed to figure out what your character would do *based on those rolls*, not actually choose.  Of course, that's actually just insulation so the target audience can claim "*I* didn't decide to [compliment] her in the [competence at her job], that's just what my character would do!  Look, my sheet says so!

* You get to choose the name, and maybe the job...  from a list which very often only includes "serf" or possibly "whore", IIRC.  If you had the misfortune to roll female.
Also I might be exaggerating, it's been some time since I actually looked.  This isn't me being sex-negative, the game makes me groan from sheer edginess and also poor utility.  It's not only gross and x-tReMe, it's an awful system for its job  >:(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 03, 2018, 05:01:38 pm

Whereas deadEarth char gen is actually interesting, even without the choices you get to make. I'm not actually sure how you'd run it, though, since it has no example NPCs or NPC creation rules, so I think you're required to gen up NPCs by the same convoluted process PCs are made. If there was a character builder for deadEarth, though, I think it could be rather fun to play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 04, 2018, 06:48:41 pm

Eh, even without NPC creation rules you can usually just knock up the end point NPC without going through character building in most systems, provided it's not a class based progression system anyway.


I might finally be getting a chance to DM something again for the first time in ages. I was chatting with some of the people in my current gaming circle and they expressed interest in an idea I floated about a game set in a 1920s noir detective sort of set up. They'd like some supernatural elements to come in at some point, so I'm now thinking I might dust off some VtR 2nd edition rules and get to writing up two or three early scenarios and some locations in not!Chicago.

Biggest issue is going to be who to invite to play in practice, we rarely get to game with the group as it stands because three of us have highly variable work hours, so I might have to keep it to just two players, at least to start with since I'd like to get games in more often than bi-monthly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 06, 2018, 02:10:14 pm

Ceremony+Find Steed=Horses for everyone.
Ceremony+Find Familiar=Familiars for everyone.
Ceremony+Tenser's Transformation+20th level Champion fighter=Fighter making 9 attacks and 18 Attack rolls, each attack doing +2d10 damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on July 06, 2018, 02:18:29 pm

Wait what

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 06, 2018, 02:30:18 pm

Ceremony is a first level cleric/paladin spell. It takes one hour and 25 gold to cast.
It has multiple options, but choose the investiture option, and you can allow anyone else to cast one of your spells, using an additional spell slot, as long as the spell takes less than one hour to cast.
So you can pass Find Familiar and Find Steed to everyone in your party.
And pass Tenser's Transformation to someone who already cannot cast spells, and is not a barbarian.
EDIT: However, this appears to only be in the UA version.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 06, 2018, 02:36:22 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on July 06, 2018, 02:18:29 pm

Wait what

The playtest version of the spell Ceremony for 5e allowed the caster to spend a spell slot, in addition to the one used to cast Ceremony, to let an ally cast a chosen first level spell in the next hour. This could be used to cast Find Familiar so everyone could have it.

Tenser's Transformation and Find Steed would not work with that Ceremony function since they're 5th and 6th level spells.

Ceremony has since been printed in Xanathar's Guide to Everything and lost that function anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 06, 2018, 02:39:10 pm

Wait, it specified first level?
Edit:Oh, not as useful as I thought it was.
Well, a ring of spell storing can also do Find Familiar, and Find Steed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 06, 2018, 02:40:43 pm

I was confused at first, because Ceremony is a spell in Xanathar's guide to Everything, but has no option to let you do anything with other spells. Then I checked the original Unearthed Arcana version, and it indeed had an option to let you allow others to cast a spell you had prepared. However, it's limited to first level spells only, so only Find Familiar would work, supposing you were allowed to use the Unearthed Arcana version.

PreEdit: Ninja'd by Grim Portent, though I will point out that Find Steed is actually a 2nd level spell, which still wouldn't work for this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: PTTG?? on July 06, 2018, 02:45:26 pm

Now, a parody RPG that purports to be FATAL-like in setting and absurdity while having light and entertaining rules (and not being written by dull edgelords), that would be funny. Gonna have to up the grimdarkness a bit, and maaybe let's go with the random stat rolling.

Roll 1d12 for your height, in feet. Roll 5d100 for your weight, in pounds.

Add in a quick to roll but absurd die system for combat (roll a number of d6s equal to your attack skill; the enemy rolls a number equal to their defense. Sum the top three dice and that's your score, whoever has more wins the attack and scores a hit, which does something gory and spectacular on the Spectacular Gore table....)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 06, 2018, 02:46:18 pm

Blergh, I'm used to thinking of Find Steed as a spell that Paladins get at level five and I'm tired so I got a bit muddled there.

Annoying thing is that it's a mix up I keep correcting my brother on.  :-[

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on July 06, 2018, 02:47:31 pm

Quote from: PTTG?? on July 06, 2018, 02:45:26 pm

Now, a parody RPG that purports to be FATAL-like in setting

You know FATAL's setting was terrible, right? Not even funny terrible, just chock-full of rape and racism from end to end.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: PTTG?? on July 06, 2018, 03:22:46 pm

Well, yeah. It wouldn't be the FATAL setting, it'd be a parody of grimdark settings, from Warhammer to Warhammer 40k, and FATAL included. Maybe something like Korgoth of Barbaria style.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on July 06, 2018, 04:54:26 pm

Please don't include Warhammer or Warhammer 40k in the same category as FATAL.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 06, 2018, 07:36:15 pm

Please do, it's funny~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 06, 2018, 09:51:31 pm

While preparing for the first session of my weird rpg group, I realized the following. The first supplement for Shard came out recently. It adds this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/I4IA0AU.png)

The PCs are going to meet Crazy Hassan (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Hassan). I don't know where we're going to go from there but I've got to do it.

Though this does have the potential to be a bit dark. Hassan is a used camel salesman. In an anthro world, I guess that means he's going to be a slaver.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 09, 2018, 12:59:36 pm

Are all animals anthropomorphic, or is it a Pluto-goofy situation?
Anyway, if it is slavery, the "used" part scares me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 09, 2018, 01:28:44 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on July 09, 2018, 12:59:36 pm

Are all animals anthropomorphic, or is it a Pluto-goofy situation?
Anyway, if it is slavery, the "used" part scares me.

In order to get around the whole "what does the anthro gazelle think when anthro lion is chowing down on animal gazelle" thing, all birds, mammals, and reptiles/amphibians are anthro. Everything either eats plants, fish, or cow-sized bugs. By the way, the cow-sized bugs can be milked. How does anatomy work? Seems like everything has mammaries.

And agreed on the last point. It might be too dark for this lighthearted romp through anthro-world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 09, 2018, 01:31:40 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 09, 2018, 01:28:44 pm

By the way, the cow-sized bugs can be milked. How does anatomy work? Seems like everything has mammaries.

IIRC in the real world there's a species of ants that will wrangle aphids into the colony and "milk" them for food.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 09, 2018, 01:47:30 pm

Why is it that when all animals is Anthropamorphic, anyone who does not want to deal with carnivore's morals act as if fish are the only non-sentient? Are we all fishist?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 09, 2018, 01:51:53 pm

It's technically a SF game with fantasy trappings. All of the anthro animals originated from this human ship where they were uplifted. Apparently they uplifted one or more of every mammal/bird/reptile/amphibian in existence but didn't do any other creatures.

Bad people come by in their warships because they're threatened by uplifts. They fire at the good guys, who activate their technobabble FTL drive to escape. Shenanigans happen, humans are gone, and we're left with anthro animals on a fantastical shattered world inhabited by bugs and plants.

Ninja post-edit thing - this isn't aphid shit water. They make cheese out of it, I'm pretty sure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 09, 2018, 01:58:14 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on July 09, 2018, 01:47:30 pm

Why is it that when all animals is Anthropamorphic, anyone who does not want to deal with carnivore's morals act as if fish are the only non-sentient? Are we all fishist?

Probably some kind of cultural hangover from religions that distinguish between fish and other meats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 09, 2018, 02:09:50 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 09, 2018, 01:58:14 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on July 09, 2018, 01:47:30 pm

Why is it that when all animals is Anthropamorphic, anyone who does not want to deal with carnivore's morals act as if fish are the only non-sentient? Are we all fishist?

Probably some kind of cultural hangover from religions that distinguish between fish and other meats.

Don't even need to get that complicated about it. Its just easier to anthropomorphize something that actually has legs and doesn't need gills to breathe. And that way you don't have to deal with questions like "How do the fish communicate with the non-aquatic creatures?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 09, 2018, 02:13:20 pm

but fish can roll

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 09, 2018, 02:19:52 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on July 09, 2018, 02:09:50 pm

Its just easier to anthropomorphize something that actually has legs

I guess they got around that hangup with the snake races by giving them legs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2018, 04:42:00 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 09, 2018, 01:58:14 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on July 09, 2018, 01:47:30 pm

Why is it that when all animals is Anthropamorphic, anyone who does not want to deal with carnivore's morals act as if fish are the only non-sentient? Are we all fishist?

Probably some kind of cultural hangover from religions that distinguish between fish and other meats.

And the Great Prophet Cobain Spoketh: (https://youtu.be/q4gMfdfRRnA?t=49)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 09, 2018, 04:43:37 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 09, 2018, 02:19:52 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on July 09, 2018, 02:09:50 pm

Its just easier to anthropomorphize something that actually has legs

I guess they got around that hangup with the snake races by giving them legs.

And four arms and curved swords and electricity shooting spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 10, 2018, 03:20:00 pm

I love the Awaken spell, heh, though I never ended up casting it myself.  I strongly considered playing an awakened core creature though, maybe someday.

---

Our new New World of Darkness session run by the Demons campaign guy is... surprisingly mature, actually.  In the serious way.  I'm remembering now that the Demons campaign mostly got fucked up by us the players going whole hog, basically becoming terrorists lashing "back" at society with demon powers.  The GM gave us trippy visions but the rampant murder was on us eagerly becoming cultists.  Impressive GMing.

This campaign of his, we're working for the EPA (it's a cover) and actually helping people.  Basically nonlethally, despite being attacked by "zombies" possessed by ghosts.  We have done well at investigating both the mundane and paranormal, so we knew to knock the victims unconscious.  And eventually, dispel the ghosts by presenting items of true faith.  (In my character's case, a twisted star of an elder god held in my palm.  Another character places Buddhist prayer beads around the necks of the afflicted)

Last night's session got quite... extreme.  It was a sanctioned Onyx Path adventure module, and yet...

Spoiler: Unironic trigger warning: implied rape, sex trafficking (click to show/hide)

We were warned OOC about these themes ahead of time, and went ahead.  We did occasionally lighten the mood with OOC jokes, but we all pushed hard to save the NPCs ASAP.  Very much to our own disadvantage, really.  We broke moral limits as we brutally interrogated rapists and collaborators.  At one point one of us attempted a cold-blooded execution, but mechanically missed the point blank shot, and was talked down.  My character considered a separate execution, as we listened to their admissions - it reminds me of that early level of SWAT 4.

Instead we recorded confessions.  But we determined that the local sheriff was part of the ring, so it was up to us to save these people. 

We slogged through a swampy sewer to the main hideout, which had just been abandoned.  We were specifically seeking one victim in particular, a fence who had been ambushed before she could sell us an eldritch item.  We found a message she had hidden, but then encountered a vicious ghost guarding her own executed corpse.  And... the secrets of her abuser, we later determined.  "Stockholm Syndrome" is a trite summary of what went on, there.  Very unsettling.

We used our tokens of true faith to discorporate the ghost, which was possessing dogs to attack us, then destroyed her body so she could move on.

The last location was a remote farm house, lights out.  We breached from two sides, but the slasher ringleader was ready for us.  6 successes on 5 dice, he sliced the throat of our main combat character.  We two survivors only survived the confusion by using vampiric vitae for supernatural agility (also my character could see in the dark).  She fired repeatedly into the slasher's corpse until the bullets ran out, while I made medical rolls with 1 skill to stabilize our friend.  It was kinda close, and we both were out of willpower, but we survived the night.

Oh, and yeah - two of us are ghouls, thanks to an "EPA" experimental treatment.  We don't know what they gave us, we're mostly assuming it's long-lasting meth or something.

In the basement we found our fence, who was...  Well, I won't describe it, but then the GM literally retracted it.  According to the module, because we worked desperately fast, we actually got a relatively good ending.  She was only captured for a few hours, and was basically unharmed.  We gave her one of our jackets and tried to comfort her on the way out, such as we could.

The impact of that description, followed by the relief of our efforts paying off, is really why I wrote this up.  It was also a good session, though, with a lot of non-combat roleplaying as we gathered information.  Insight was as important as intimidation, as we confronted the suspects with inconsistencies.  Also guns, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 10, 2018, 03:37:54 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 09, 2018, 04:43:37 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 09, 2018, 02:19:52 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on July 09, 2018, 02:09:50 pm

Its just easier to anthropomorphize something that actually has legs

I guess they got around that hangup with the snake races by giving them legs.

And four arms and curved swords and electricity shooting spells.

They use curved swords?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on July 10, 2018, 03:52:34 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on July 10, 2018, 03:37:54 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 09, 2018, 04:43:37 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on July 09, 2018, 02:19:52 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on July 09, 2018, 02:09:50 pm

Its just easier to anthropomorphize something that actually has legs

I guess they got around that hangup with the snake races by giving them legs.

And four arms and curved swords and electricity shooting spells.

They use curved swords?

Curved. Swords.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 10, 2018, 06:36:03 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6UWWRgUgWs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6UWWRgUgWs)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 11, 2018, 07:15:02 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on July 09, 2018, 01:47:30 pm

Why is it that when all animals is Anthropamorphic, anyone who does not want to deal with carnivore's morals act as if fish are the only non-sentient? Are we all fishist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W8_GXmu2e0

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 12, 2018, 09:50:25 am

We haven’t forgiven fish for Steve Irwin yet

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on July 12, 2018, 04:56:57 pm

#notallfish

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 12, 2018, 05:32:31 pm

#FishLivesMatter

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on July 12, 2018, 09:32:37 pm

#fishtoo

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 12, 2018, 11:29:04 pm

Hey! No fish rights activism in the D&D thread, this is a happy place, full of malicious murderhobos and the long-suffering DMs who have to put up with them!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 13, 2018, 04:08:48 am

As a somewhat late aside, aquatic herding actually happens. Just look at dolphins corralling fish, or the Faroese tradition of the Grind (note: extremely bloody imagery, but it's honestly not as brutal as it looks. These people do care about the animals' welfare).

Also, I saw a thread about rolling characters in deadEarth... good times. Out of five different rolls, three characters died before even entering the game, a fourth was primed to instantly fall into a coma before detonating with an atomic blast, and the fifth was horrifically tall and skinny, while being slightly too weak to lift the clothes he was wearing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: kilakan on July 13, 2018, 04:52:23 pm

I actually love systems that can roll... bad or dead characters, mongoose's version of traveller for one is awesome for making characters who feel like real people.  I'll have to check out deadEarth, does it have any sort of character generator I could just mess around with?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 13, 2018, 05:02:06 pm

Bad characters I understand. They can be fun to play. But the end state of a dead character is "do it again".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2018, 05:43:44 pm

Yah, I've never really understood why some designers include 'die in char creation' as a thing, it really doesn't add anything to the game, as the point of the game is to play.  It can be fun or silly, but it really is pretty useless as a feature.

Edit: I suppose I should say 'seems' pretty useless as a feature, I suppose it could be something for role-play (dead family member, w/e) but from a function standpoint it comes across as a bit of a 'fuck you'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on July 13, 2018, 07:00:40 pm

In many cases, though, the possibility of death in character creation is an emergent property, not a directly designed one. I can see the logic behind accepting a rare "do it again" outcome as a cost of a wider or more interesting range of other generated characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 13, 2018, 07:06:16 pm

I suppose it could be a draw to more randomly-determined systems, where you don't generally start with a strong concept of 'character' and let the rolls determine what you play.

I've played a few systems like that, but I found that while I'm generally okay with having a character with poor stats, I really don't like having my playstyle dictated by the rolls as generally happens with randomized character construction.  But that's very much an issue of personal preference.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 13, 2018, 07:13:31 pm

I've heard that the possibility of character death in Classic Traveller is meant to be a sort of risk/reward thing, as the longer you spend in it, the better starting bonuses and/or credits you'll have at the beginning of the game, so it's meant to encourage you to cash out while the going is still good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 14, 2018, 04:13:05 am

Quote from: kilakan on July 13, 2018, 04:52:23 pm

I actually love systems that can roll... bad or dead characters, mongoose's version of traveller for one is awesome for making characters who feel like real people.  I'll have to check out deadEarth, does it have any sort of character generator I could just mess around with?

There’s a spreadsheet that automates some of the stupid math and the 200d6 rolls I think, if you’re interested

Edit: also with regards to dying in character creation, don’t stop rolling if you get a RadMan that kills you, cause you might get another RadMan that gets you get rid of the RadMan that kills you (and Word Of Author, RadMans with serious negative effects take a couple of days to kick in so your best bet if you were to roll one of them in-game is to go find some uranium and use it like shower soap)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on July 15, 2018, 06:17:43 am

Quote from: greatorder on July 14, 2018, 06:46:55 pm

So, I have reconciled the fact that another PC killed a child with my character's belief in heroes and such, without resorting to trying to kill the guy.

I hoped it wouldn't come to this, and the other character would keep quiet about the child killing, but it turns out that an ex-PC's character was spying on them at the time and revealed this information.

Guy got arrested and due to prejudice shenanigans, got off with a slap on the wrist. First thing I did when I saw him was throw the nearest object at him (which happened to be a bread bun). Then we got into a Mexican standoff where I was prepping to throw a bottle at him, everyone else was prepping to do magic at whoever moved first, and the kiddie killer was ready to eldritch blast me. He than laughed and walked off to the bar, and since my character had no idea how to deal with a situation where an obvious bad guy wasn't doing something obviously evil, he just kind of put down the glass and kind of ambled about.

I did get into PvP with the guy later, but that was more a kind of grudge match thing. I rolled pretty abysmally, but still dropped them to 10hp before they dropped me in spite of that.

Anyway, if I'm in a situation where I can save him and nobody else is around, and if I don't he dies... My character will have no issue letting him die. Unless he starts being good again (In my character's eyes, that is), which will require one hell of a lot of good behaviour.

Seems like a good way to handle it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 16, 2018, 05:27:39 pm

So, why did you character not know what to do when an obviously evil person laughs ominously and then walks away, presumably to do more evil?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2018, 04:55:04 am

DND went on a bit late.  Hmm....  /drunk

We had to deliver a devastating bomb as low as possible in an "abandoned" building, and were forced to enter midway up it.
Pathways Into Darkness Intensify

We talked our way past the blind senile guard (on the 5th floor of the fire escape, the only entrance) and proceeded down.  We saw many horrors.  Grabbed some robes off some dumbasses who suicided around a pentagram. 

Passed by a grisly collection of mutilated people, some of whom still begged for rescue.  The rest, for death.
Wouldn't a "lucifarian" be someone who only consumes light for sustenance?  Ha, the jokes we reach for, in such a place.

We aimed for the basement, but on the first floor we encountered an impaled goat within 3 layers of electric-powered warding, stapled to a particularly load-bearing beam.  We determined that the goat was focus for a powerful, contained demon.  Clearly we had to drop the package nearby.

No, said my allies, we must toss the bomb into the circles.  I object- I rolled a 0 on my occult, and agreed.  They discussed at length, we made another roll.  "I worry that-" I rolled another 0.  "-that you know more than I".

In a neat twist, the GM ruled that an exceptional success (5 successes) would mean we struck the goat.  Our wizard (a male swamp witch who goes on about wood and water) tossed the package, with only 4 dice.  5 successes, 4 of which were explosions.  That's not likely.

The goat sprouted 8 arachnoid limbs as it rolled out of its containment.  "I thank you" it gnashed, even as its head twisted backward.  We ran.

I will spare the mechanical rolls, but two of us were caught, and one of us told the other to flee.  I fled, but not before flinging a holy item of my mythos god.  Lost forever, but the many-pointed star cut a gash of true faith across the demon, and gave it pause.  But, I fled.

Stumbling down the fire escape, I clumsily caught my leg in a rusty edge as I passed a boarded window.  The boards splintered as my ally was flung against it.  I ripped my leg free, bloodily, and lept 10 feet to the ground below.  "Trigger the bomb!"  I shouted to our faster ally, waiting further on.  "Before it takes his soul, or escapes!"

But that wasn't the fate of Hart the Grey.  As our ally held her finger on the "call" button like a deadman's switch, Hart weathered the massive spiderdemon's every-replicating limbs.  A dodged blow smashed a whole in the windows behind him.  Two health from death, prompted by the GM to choose last words, he chose... "HOLY GUACAMOLE"

8 successes on like 6 dice.  .05%  PERCENT
He stabbed the demon straight in the essence, with a staff carrying his artifact of true faith.  It screamed as he backflippped off the 2nd floor to the ground, landing beside my character.  It crumpled like a dead spider.

We stumbled to our feet, but he shouldn't have been standing.  I supported him as we stumbled to cover.  On the way he collapsed, but we dragged him together, and triggered the explosive.

Death to all lucifages/light-eaters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 17, 2018, 06:59:13 am

Creepy. What WoD were you playing again? Or just all of them together (can you do that? I think they're supposed to be written to at least passable fit together)?

Also, since your group seem to enjoy this kind of stuff, have you heard of the Swedish 1991 rpg Kult (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kult_(role-playing_game))? I haven't played it myself, so I only know it by hearsay, but it seems like something you or your friends might be interested in and I feel obligated to mention it it as a Swede. There's an official English translation so no need to worry about that.

As a bonus, if you are a Paradox fanboy like I am, it was originally published by what would eventually become Paradox.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2018, 12:04:12 pm

NWoD is pretty modular in what you face, but most templates are forbidden from being stacked.  We started as baseline-human investigators, but were gifted the ghoul template by our agency (the EPA... which apparently has an extensive vampire program in its paranormal division).  We also received two items of true faith, each, in a previous session while banishing ghosts.  I did lose one of them last night, but for a good cause.

My character is basically a nerdy photographer, but the Mythos stuff is because of his weird backstory as a rejected changeling.  So now he's terrified of all things fey, and worships Shub-Niggurath.  Mechanically, he uses his high Occult to do divinations for guidance.  But he's 7 morality, not a murderer or anything.

That character Hart is an expy from this hilarious failed show Deep South Paranormal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f46PnNlwWMo), he looks like a wizard and acts like one.  I was just tickled that he pullled an accidental and extremly-fortuitous Gandalf transformation, somehow killing the Balrog while we ran.  In our defense, he is the only one of us specced for combat at all :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 17, 2018, 12:18:17 pm

Sorry, that clip has been blocked in my country :(

Are Items of True Faith giftable? I assumed they had to be personally tied to you somehow, and got power from your faith.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2018, 12:33:21 pm

Aw ):  Well if this image link works, it about sums him up:  https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/dc/5c/28dc5c08e6d822a7bea0f672651b03c1.jpg
Looks like Gandalf, talks like a... deep south crazy hermit.

We found the items of True Faith in the study of a dead occultist who collected relics from various religions.  They wouldn't have been true faith for him, but we each found some things that worked for our characters personally.  I think our author lady just has a cross and a Mary figurine.

Anything can theoretically be an item of true faith, but it has to be valuable and actually spiritually meaningful to your character.  There are tiers, too.  A splinter from Jesus's cross is vastly more effective than a pewter mall cross, but my character couldn't discorporate a ghost with either.

Edit:  Rereading your question, I think that having a personal history with the item might help?  It's not required, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 17, 2018, 12:47:12 pm

Quote from: scriver on July 17, 2018, 06:59:13 am

Also, since your group seem to enjoy this kind of stuff, have you heard of the Swedish 1991 rpg Kult (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kult_(role-playing_game))? I haven't played it myself, so I only know it by hearsay, but it seems like something you or your friends might be interested in and I feel obligated to mention it it as a Swede. There's an official English translation so no need to worry about that.

As a bonus, if you are a Paradox fanboy like I am, it was originally published by what would eventually become Paradox.

Oh sorry, I almost missed this!  This does look right up our alley, heh.  I'm under-informed on Gnosticism but, based on this description, it's similar to stuff in our games.  Seems like the inspiration for a lot of "occult" stuff, heh.

Jeez, that mental balance and "Awakening" mechanic...  Yeah this is cool, thanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 17, 2018, 02:19:53 pm

Neat! Also the name is not just a Kool Zpelling Wurd Nayme but just how cult is spelled in Swedish. They kept it when translating, presumably because it was the 90's and Kool Zpelling Wurd Nayme trend was at it's most XXXTREME!!!1!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on July 19, 2018, 07:13:53 am

I've gone and started the Rime RPG (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171428.0), with a short-ish self-contained adventure in mind. Let's see where it takes me. Everyone's free to do their own spin on the idea of the Rime as they want, of course, seeing as this was a community thing anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 19, 2018, 07:16:21 am

MY OC DO NOT STEAL

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on July 19, 2018, 07:24:20 am

Quote from: scriver on July 19, 2018, 07:16:21 am

MY OC DO NOT STEAL

No laws in the Rime, you can duel me for it. Main street at noon?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 19, 2018, 07:34:47 am

There's no rime nor reason with that!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 23, 2018, 08:47:11 pm

So I was browsing through DriveThruRPG's Newest Free and PWYW titles, as I sometimes do, and I was looking at the preview for this (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/247661/Wizards?manufacturers_id=5785), especially the section where it says that gain wizard levels for each wizard you kill, and apparently other players with wizard levels count towards that, and I thought, "Wow, this is the most Bay 12 RtD concept I've seen outside of that board." And then I decided to look at publisher, and it's called Piecewise Games! Did piecewise start publishing on DriveThruRPG, or is this just a weird coincidence?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 23, 2018, 08:49:24 pm

Yes, Piecewise does indeed put things on that site. We actually played WIZARDS for a while on this forum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 23, 2018, 09:36:09 pm

Tonight featured the first lair action of my 5e game. I don't know if the DM did it right - it happened once, not on every pass - but who am I to argue against something that made the fight easier?

Party of seven. Our only healing comes from the paladin and my bard. We had to go nova in this fight - high-level dissonant whispers all around, then switching to cure wounds once half of the party failed a "save or incap" legendary action's save.

Having two bards adds another layer of hilarity, especially when one rolls an X for initiative and the other gets X-1. Bard 1: "Dang, the big bad guy passed his save for dissonant whispers." Bard 2: "I cast dissonant whispers on the big bad guy."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 23, 2018, 11:57:45 pm

Currently in NWoD we're investigating a very complicated intrigue-mystery at a Miskatonic University expy.  It was getting a bit convoluted, so we started cracking jokes about some bathroom graffiti we found.  Apparently one of the targets of our investigation is popular with the ladies, and they agree about the exact length of his equipment.  From cross-referencing artistic representations.

After some giggling all around, I realized.  "You know this was basically a plot point in MGS 3, right?"
We took a break as I explained about Volgin's... inspections.  I also mentioned the Boss giving birth while spearheading the Normandy invasion, and the Russian agent who is actually *spoiler*.  I didn't even mention the *other* "Russian" agent.  Fun times.

Then we went back to interrogating a vampire-professor.  We managed to extract a promise that he would stop dumping bodies... in the swamp.  Because we actually do work for the EPA, which apparently works with vampires, so the water pollution was actually a priority (we also got a real lead on a different investigation target, but had to follow up on his swamp pollution too).

We also learned that he's named Dr. Acula, so I suspect he wasn't part of the module

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on July 24, 2018, 07:27:54 am

So in semi-breaking D&D 5e news, WotC just announced two new sourcebooks yesterday:


1) Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica (http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/guildmasters-guide-ravnica), which is gonna land in November, featuring the fan-favorite Ravnica setting from Magic: The Gathering (you know, the bigger WotC property).


2) Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/247882/Wayfinders-Guide-to-Eberron-5e), which features the semi-classic pulpy magitech setting from the 3.5e days. It's out now as digital-only, and is described as a prototype/playest material - so more things and changes (including the addition of the artificer class, as the first full official non-PHB class in 5e) are on the way.
There is also the Races of Eberron UA (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/723UA_EberronRaces7232018.pdf), which is already part of the Eberron book, but doesn't have a $20 pricetag attached. Some cool stuff in there.




While I predominantly play homebrew D&D settings (indeed I have yet to actually play a game that takes place in a published setting...), I'm SUPER glad that WotC is FINALLY starting to experiment and branch out to other settings which are not Forgotten Realms (and even then, it's only been the Sword Coast and Chult, and not even all of the FR world) - so I hope that both books do well (Eberron more so), even though I imagine a lot of people are not super happy with that sort of cross-promotion between D&D and MtG and would rather have seen something like Dark Sun or Spelljammer in the place of the Ravnica guide - but there's a good chance those are on the way too.
(I know there was the series of the free Planeshift supplements...earlier this year? But the GGtR seems to be a step-up from that in terms of production value, or so I hope.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on July 24, 2018, 07:40:10 am

I have longrunning issues with DnD that tstem from its essential nature as a squad-based wargaming system, and I pass up no opportunity to remind people that it is class-based level-worshipping arse-wankery, and that as a people we have evolved past the limitations that it placed upon our early roleplaying aspirations. Viva La Shadowrun (but not as a GM, fuck that noise).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on July 24, 2018, 08:01:35 am

Shadowrun has the ineffable advantage of being a terrible fucking mess of a game which you can tell with a single look that it obviously isn't worth actually playing, so instead you spend your time avoiding the game and pretending to be a bunch of people existing in the setting i.e. Roleplaying. So people who prefer the roleplaying part of a roleplaying game (fair enough really, it's in the name) naturally prefer it "because it has the right focus"

I'm pretty interested in the Eberron expansion. Eberron was my favorite setting in 3.5 and I ran a couple of games in it over the years. Although I wonder if it'll change the setting much, I'd be okay with cosmology changes, but I hope the setting itself isn't too radically shifted. Either way more books with more monsters and items and classes to take inspiration from are always appreciated even for homebrewed settings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 24, 2018, 08:37:25 am

Let me annoy you with more bard talk. All four races in the Eberron UA either make great bards or have options that make them great. Free disguises? Cha bonuses all around? Built-in folding instruments that give you double proficiency just for using them?

---

And regarding Shadowrun. Great setting, mediocre mechanics. I'm eager to play again but I'd honestly go with Interface Zero, Shadows Over Sol, Cypher System, or maybe even Mythras.

Calling D&D class-based arse-wankery is a bit disingenuous when you're going to proceed to profess your love of Shadowrun. Shadowrun has implicit classes. Your mage isn't going to install augmentations. Your beefy beatstick isn't going to hack or use magic. Hell, even effective deckers and riggers won't overlap much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on July 24, 2018, 08:40:45 am

Kinda makes me want to make a Warforged whose torso is an accordion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Liber celi on July 24, 2018, 12:53:24 pm

Eugh

Abolish bards

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 24, 2018, 01:00:57 pm

I like bards from a game design standpoint, though.  In a system of hyper-optimized player characters, they're a jack of all trades master of none, even more so than the rogue.  They're healer/combatant/face/illusionist.

So they're perfect to fill in the gaps of a small party.  And yet, their party-wide buffing is basically expected for a large party.

I also love bards lore-wise, because they're skalds.  Every group of adventurers needs a battle-brother to share and exaggerate their lives.  Glorify even their inevitable grisly ends (which the skald escapes via illusion and guile).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on July 24, 2018, 01:41:58 pm

Bards are pretty awesome, but I've never really been able to play them well.

Anyone ever use the spheres of power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) alternate magic rules? The table I play at allows it in lieu of default magic (and the Path of War 3rd party system as well) in our pathfinder sessions. I find them wonderfully versatile, if not as full of cool unique magics as the base system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 24, 2018, 02:15:11 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on July 24, 2018, 01:00:57 pm

So they're perfect to fill in the gaps of a small party.  And yet, their party-wide buffing is basically expected for a large party.

Is this speaking from 5e experience or earlier editions? I know bards in 3.x could basically inspire the party all day long. I'm pretty sure 4 had something similar. But, unless my spell selection is shit, I'm not really seeing it in 5. The most buffing I can manage is inspiring four people using four actions, or going all David Bowie four times a day and allowing up to four people to use their reactions to move without provoking attacks while simultaneously giving them 5 temp HP each.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 24, 2018, 02:19:34 pm

3.5, sorry.  Our previous campaign was DND 5th edition (and in some ways I preferred it, other ways not), but I still assume 3.5 as normal when giving advice.

I have no idea how bards work in 5th edition.  We ran Arcane Fighter, Sorcerer, Paladin.  Which worked great in 5th edition... And arguably would have been okay in 3.5, but only with a sizeable budget for healing potions.

Edit:  Well shit, I just remembered that I ran a 5e 4th level bard for literally one session, after my arcane fighter died.  And I was scrambling to learn her mechanics the entire time, heh.  I think the plan is to revisit these characters eventually, after we cycle through some other campaigns.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 24, 2018, 03:28:55 pm

Yeah, I'd say 5e bards can maybe do full-party buffs with some of their spells, but otherwise they're basically limited to adding a bit of extra healing or countercharming; everything else is pretty single-target. The only exception to this seems to be the College of Glamour bard from Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

I think, ignoring spells and just going by class features, the best full-party buffer in 5e is probably the paladin, with their passive aura abilities. The only downside is that you have to stay pretty close to the paladin to take advantage of them (for most levels they'll be limited to 10 feet, and even when you get to level 18 the auras only extend up to 30 feet), but they can block some pretty nasty effects, and a paladin with a good charisma modifier can give quite a significant saving throw bonus without having to expend any resources.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 24, 2018, 03:42:09 pm

Faerie Fire. There's your full-party buff spell, and it's 1st level. Giving someone a Bardic inspiration die is a bonus action, so you can still cast spells while giving it. Shatter is your damaging spell, Dispel Magic is good to have in your pocket and Polymorph makes an amazing buff when cast on your teammates. A wizard can cast these spells as well, but their bonus actions can easily go to waste.

And if you want to save your slots, Vicious Mockery is hilarious.

Furthermore, with Magical Secrets you can screw over paladins and get spells like Find Greater Steed or Circle of Power way before them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 25, 2018, 06:43:31 am

Nearly time for the release of Pathfinder 2.0 and it's looking... different. Certainly gonna give it a shot, but I dunno if it's gonna click for me. Anyone else doing the Playtest?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 25, 2018, 07:09:16 am

Just about every time I get in my car, I hear Africa by Toto. This guy (https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/8q9qxn/wp_panic_spreads_amongst_the_african_vampire/) is on to something. We're all just normies in someone's Unknown Armies campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on July 27, 2018, 05:28:21 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on July 25, 2018, 06:43:31 am

Nearly time for the release of Pathfinder 2.0 and it's looking... different. Certainly gonna give it a shot, but I dunno if it's gonna click for me. Anyone else doing the Playtest?

Yep, very eager to try it out. PF1 I find very intimidating and full of trap choices and other things that kind of dispel the magic of it having so much choice and variety and complexity, so I'm very hopeful for PF2.
(I'm very surprised that people reacted to today's blog on multiclassing as well as they did, since I remember it being a very big point of contention when a person on Reddit who got their playtest books early leaked some info on that - there's still people upset over the changes of course, but not as many as I expected.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 27, 2018, 06:41:10 pm

I assume this is the blog post you're talking about. (http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkz1?Multiclassing-and-Archetypes)

And, yeah, it looks interesting. I guess it might not work for character concepts where you intent to not be primarily one class or the other, though multiclassing like that never really worked very well past 2nd edition (I think probably the closest concept to 1st and 2nd edition multiclassing was gestalt characters), so it's probably not missing much that would probably work better done a different way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 28, 2018, 08:38:23 am

I'm not known for my genius insight into mechanics and how they fit together, and this goes doubly for something like pathfinder 2 that I have not followed or read about in any way (thus my only frame of reference is pathfinder 1), but having multiclassing be done by way of feats... Well, doesn't it seem like a raw deal for classes that often rely on feats for their prowess, like fighters or rogues? I suspect that a wizard who mulficlass into cleric would lose out on less than a fighter who mulficlass the same.

Also, writing pathfinder 1 or 2 is tedious. How is pathfinder usually shortened? Pthfr? Pfr?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 28, 2018, 08:42:17 am

PF.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 28, 2018, 08:50:37 am

Pfft.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 29, 2018, 04:20:12 am

Pathos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 29, 2018, 05:22:18 pm

What?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on July 29, 2018, 05:59:39 pm

Whathos?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on July 29, 2018, 09:24:04 pm

Okay okay take it to the word association thread guys :P

Kind of excited to see PF2.0 since that makes it (technically) DnD4.75 considering PF was widely known to be DnD3.75

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2018, 09:38:43 pm

Hopefully DnD5.75.  No offense to 4E, but it was an experiment back into the wargaming roots which got... largely redacted.  5E is Wizards's refinement of 3.5, so the real competitor/comparison to Pathfinder 1/2.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 30, 2018, 08:41:38 am

Here's a decent summary (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2963-D-D-Does-Digital-Part-II-Virtual-Tabletops) of the story behind a lot of the failures that led to 4E being a market flop, mainly due to WotC planning but failing to deliver on a virtual tabletop that would tie in directly with 4E mechanics to compete with the MMORPG market, which was a huge growth market during the time of the development of that edition.

Ultimately, WotC saw Warcraft gobbling up big dollars, tried to make their new edition appeal both to their old market and this newer emerging one, and ended up with a failure that couldn't deliver to the second and alienated the first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 30, 2018, 06:48:37 pm

Yeah, back when my D&D group played 4th Edition, someone said it was a shame they never made a grid-based tactics videogame out of it, since all the rules work was already done. It was also really weird how they made Neverwinter based on 4E, but then made daily and encounter powers basically work like cool-downs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: TheBiggerFish on August 01, 2018, 07:50:15 pm

I now have a 26 CHA sorcerer.  Like, naturally.  Well, as natural as finding a Tome and surviving 300 years for it to recharge twice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 01, 2018, 09:51:02 pm

You know what I like? Landmine traps.

Traditionally, a trap is something that you either spot and disable, or fail to spot and trigger, take damage from, then heal and move on.

Instead of this, I like traps that are tricky to spot, and trigger but don't activate unless you fail to disable them. Step on the wobbly flagstone and click! Don't move unless you want it to go off. Open the chest and crunch! Better not close that lid or else the poison gas will be released.

At higher levels, throw in stuff like spheres of force that trap one of the characters inside them, or trigger a countdown in rounds until something nasty occurs.

Also, instead of simply rolling a single check to disable traps, it becomes a minigame of figuring out the devious mechanism to disarm the device. Perhaps you need two simultaneous checks to disarm it, one being disable device, the other a strength check to lift the massive stone block covering the sensitive components. Or maybe you need a knowledge (nobility) check to spot that the family crest in this room has an extra star on the heraldry that's not supposed to be there, which will disable the trap if you press it.

I dislike traps being a tax on walking around. They should be a legitimate challenge for the party, but also a tactic that the baddies in the next room use to delay the group while they buff themselves prior to combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on August 02, 2018, 08:08:53 am

Pathinder 2e Playtest is here! (http://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest)
Although I imagine the website will slow down to a crawl today, but at last, it's starting!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 02, 2018, 10:13:14 am

Managed to get the file but it's midnight so I'm gonna read up on my weekend instead.

Greatorder, are you sure you're reading the wording of the Command spell correctly? If this is 3.5e or Pathfinder, the spell doesn't let you force someone to answer a question. The spell text clearly lists the options, which are to approach, drop, fall, flee, or halt. Nothing about talking in there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 02, 2018, 10:18:12 am

Ohmigod it is taking forever.

Quote from: Jimmy on August 02, 2018, 10:13:14 am

Managed to get the file but it's midnight so I'm gonna read up on my weekend instead.

Greatorder, are you sure you're reading the wording of the Command spell correctly? If this is 3.5e or Pathfinder, the spell doesn't let you force someone to answer a question. The spell text clearly lists the options, which are to approach, drop, fall, flee, or halt. Nothing about talking in there.

The spell lists those as examples, but also says any one-word command is sufficient. So "answer" is technically acceptable.

PPE: Nope looks like I was wrong! Good thing I looked before looking like an idiot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 02, 2018, 10:37:32 am

I thought you meant Suggestion, but that's level 3 arcane (level 2 for bards) instead of a cleric spell like ZoT and Command.  I'm not sure whether it would technically help, since the subject won't obey "obviously harmful" suggestions and they have to sound reasonable.  Incriminating oneself via testimony is arguably pretty harmful...  And if it does work anyway, the ZoT is unnecessary if you suggest telling the truth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 02, 2018, 11:33:10 am

5th edition allows for any one-word command.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 02, 2018, 11:59:21 am

It's a bit silly you can command somebody to "release" but not 'let go".

And before you say "well it's to defeat abuse of the spell" just imagine the opportunities for abuse in languages with strong word compounding. Backtowheredukommffromgesprungen!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 02, 2018, 12:38:56 pm

Quote from: greatorder on August 02, 2018, 11:45:51 am

Quote from: scriver on August 02, 2018, 11:33:10 am

5th edition allows for any one-word command.

Yep. Those are given as examples. It's important to note that they can respond in certain ways. For example, if you command someone to run, and you meant run away, they may decide instead to run at you. In addition, they won't do anything that harms themselves, so you can't command someone to commit suicide.

I think older editions explicitly said a Command to "die!" would force them to go unconcious for a short time, or I guess otherwise "play dead".

In game I think I've only used Command one time.  I used "flee!" but IIRC they made the save.  2nd edition game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 02, 2018, 12:52:14 pm

Keep a list of auto-antonyms handy. See if the DM interprets your Command in any way other than "Pelor the Burning Hate erases you from existence."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 02, 2018, 01:25:57 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on August 02, 2018, 10:18:12 am

Ohmigod it is taking forever.

Quote from: Jimmy on August 02, 2018, 10:13:14 am

Managed to get the file but it's midnight so I'm gonna read up on my weekend instead.

Greatorder, are you sure you're reading the wording of the Command spell correctly? If this is 3.5e or Pathfinder, the spell doesn't let you force someone to answer a question. The spell text clearly lists the options, which are to approach, drop, fall, flee, or halt. Nothing about talking in there.

The spell lists those as examples, but also says any one-word command is sufficient. So "answer" is technically acceptable.

PPE: Nope looks like I was wrong! Good thing I looked before looking like an idiot.

Of course, it makes them give an answer - but it doesn't mean they have to tell the players anything.

"Answer!"
"I refuse to tell you anything." is an answer, and true, but doesn't tell the players anything of note.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 02, 2018, 01:36:39 pm

Getruthensprechen!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 02, 2018, 01:44:39 pm

Gesundheit!  (Target gets a +1 morale bonus on next skill roll)

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 02, 2018, 01:25:57 pm

"Answer!"
"I refuse to tell you anything." is an answer, and true, but doesn't tell the players anything of note.

It's an answer, but is it true?  Or self-contradicting? :P
Sounds like the sort of idle chatter my group enjoys getting sidetracked by...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 02, 2018, 01:48:17 pm

Would you allow "Sidestep!"? But would you allow "Side step!"? "Side-step"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 03, 2018, 07:21:32 pm

Yeah, but always remember that as DM, your job is to subvert your players' carefully planned strategies. Mind controlling the mooks is only a valid strategy if they have useful information to supply, and if they don't resist their interrogation with every method possible.

Also turnaround is fair play, so don't forget to give the baddies the ability to use the same strategy against the players too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2018, 09:12:48 pm

Being frustrating for the sake of being frustrating is being a bad DM.  Sometimes your players' careful strategy has to be allowed to function, because while you as DM have meta-knowledge of their actions, the badguys don't, and can only act based on their awareness.

That said, those badguys aren't stupid, so they should be taking reasonable precautions based on the power-level of your setting.

Just as a general bit of advice to ALL DM/GM/Storytellers out there, the game is not DM vs players.  It is players vs world.  You are the creator, what you say goes, but once you commit, there are no takebacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Draignean on August 03, 2018, 09:24:15 pm

I'd also note that players are generally gradually less interested in coming up with cool and detailed plans if those plans frequently go completely tits up and get resolved by pants-flying shenanigans.

Pants-flying shenanigans are great- they're generally where the tastiest play, but players should still generally feel that planning and forethought will result in decreased risks and improved rewards. It's a sin I ran into with one of my better campaigns, where the plan generally devolved into walking straight at the enemies and then hiding under a table when things went south and the entertainment inexplicably caught fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2018, 09:35:54 pm

Once upon a time, when I was nineteen and in the Army*, I ran a RIFTS campaign for a few guys in my company.  I made the mistake of trying to do something imposing and epic involving an army of thousands of undead created by a necromancer who led this army (from the rear) to destroy the brave fools who had dared to interfere with his plans.  He (and I) neglected to account for military-grade paranoia and explosives.  Mostly the explosives.  The army of near-indestructible skeletons and zombies were crushed under thousands of tons of wrecked buildings, and the necromancer took a particle beam to the eye, with a nat 20 against a -15 to hit.

Moral of the story, sometimes the players win because they were smart, and you can't just take that from them to be a dick.

*these terms are not often synonymous, but they probably should be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 03, 2018, 11:00:10 pm

Never, ever, give players access to high explosives.

They will use them to solve problems.  They will use them to solve all problems.

Its like giving Boatmurdered access to magma.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 03, 2018, 11:02:25 pm

"What's that? We need to rescue the hostages? Well, tossing in a few high explosives is probably a good start..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 03, 2018, 11:08:33 pm

"Arson to all taverns which house us, including motels and gas stations in NWoD" is pretty much my group's mission statement.  Regardless of switch GMs.

At first it was just screwing around with cursed dice.  Eventually it became a sort of way to let off steam, heh.
Last session was so intrigue-heavy that a gas station survived, and I was a little sad when I realized.

My allies did indulge in violent drug rampages once we reached the party, but it's just not the same :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 04, 2018, 12:13:27 am

I have learned to respond to high explosive shenanigans with massively disproportionate response.  Once the party has bombed a couple targets the game switches to mutually assured destruction, requiring much more thought on the players' part.

I do however make sure that there are hard limits on how high the stakes go, I'm not running DBZ styled campaigns after all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 04, 2018, 12:31:18 am

"You guys atomized the penthouse that my top lieutenant was staying at, so I guess I'll be forced to punch the planet to death until you're all dead."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 04, 2018, 12:57:27 am

Well, I did have Unicron in that one campaign...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on August 04, 2018, 06:06:57 pm

Of course, one can also avoid the need for brute-force DMing regarding explosives by simply not designing the sort of problems that killing everything deader than dead can solve.

I like giving my PCs access to some setting-appropriate variant of explosives, because their use sends me a very clear message: there was nothing in the blast radius that my players had any use for or any reason to care about except in the most soporifically violent of terms. Explosions are how players efficiently take shortcuts through rooms full of boring cardboard-cutout enemies who are only there to fight and  be fought, and that's not something I want in my games, so I treat bucketfuls of damage dice as an indication that my villains aren't interesting.

It must be said that big flashy pyrotechnic distractions and sabotage are entirely different matters, but players approach those very differently.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 04, 2018, 11:02:28 pm

You could have pulled the classic "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" where the interrogatee just won't. stop. talking. The correct code is probably somewhere amidst the code to his locker, his bank pin number, his phone number, his mom's phone number...

After all, the Command was to 'answer' didn't specify a question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on August 05, 2018, 06:07:28 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 04, 2018, 11:02:28 pm

You could have pulled the classic "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" where the interrogatee just won't. stop. talking. The correct code is probably somewhere amidst the code to his locker, his bank pin number, his phone number, his mom's phone number...

After all, the Command was to 'answer' didn't specify a question.

Relevant. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeKVM6lxGp4)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on August 05, 2018, 08:43:49 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 04, 2018, 11:02:28 pm

You could have pulled the classic "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" where the interrogatee just won't. stop. talking. The correct code is probably somewhere amidst the code to his locker, his bank pin number, his phone number, his mom's phone number...

After all, the Command was to 'answer' didn't specify a question.

And then the interogatee starts spilling the secrets of Life, the Universe, and Everything, and you have to evacuate and quarantine the planet because what he says is just too terrible to hear...

Except for the bit about the frogs, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 05, 2018, 11:47:51 am

It turns out they were turning the frogs gay

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 06, 2018, 11:09:43 am

Heh. I finally burned down my first tavern. Well, it was a cafe but still. I found a campaign that will let me play the character concept I've been tossing around ever since I found the muckdwellers as a race, a muckdweller Dragonfire adept. Something about a two foot tall lizard breathing 30ft cones of fire just tickles me.

It helps I'm able to also run Vow of Poverty since DFA is an items-light class and I can do without the single magical item I would have wanted but never got anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 08, 2018, 06:51:44 am

Got the Pathfinder Playtest PDF, and I've been screwing around with character building. The multiclassing system is lots of fun!

I've built a Barbarian/Cleric multiclass build up to level 9 so far, and I'm calling it the Acolyte of Rage.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Praise Gorum!
Eyes forward,
Lift your shield,

Praise Gorum!
No mercy,
Never yield,

Praise Gorum!
Cut them down,
Draw your blade,

Praise Gorum!
Battle frenzy,
Unafraid,

Praise Gorum!
Blood raging,
Battle cry,

Praise Gorum!
Make them bleed,
Make them die,

Praise Gorum!
Endless battle,
Evermore,

Praise Gorum!
Bless us with,
Holy war!

- Habna of Skala, Dwarven Skald, Battle of Akthal's Shame, 3313 AR

Level 1
Ancestry: Dwarf
Ancestry Feat: Mountain Roots
Background: Acolyte
Class: Barbarian
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Trained Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Religion
Totem: Fury Totem
Barbarian Feats: Moment of Clarity, Sudden Charge

At first level there's not much interesting happening, but we're laying groundwork for multiclassing into Cleric by boosting Wisdom to 16 and taking Religion for our trained skill. The background choice here is mostly flavor, as there are more optimized choices out there, but this one is most thematic.

Recommended starting equipment: breastplate (80 sp), greatsword (20 sp), 3 javelins (3 sp), gauntlet (2 sp), backpack (1 sp), bedroll (1 cp), flint and steel (5 cp), waterskin (5 cp), winter clothing (4 sp), trail rations, 5 days (2 sp 5 cp), silk rope (10 sp), grappling hook (1 sp), sheath (1 cp) chalk (1 cp), candle (1 cp), pint of oil (1 cp), wooden holy symbol (1 sp), signal whistle (8 cp), torches (1 cp), sacks (1 cp), smokestick (20 sp) and caltrops (3 sp) - Total: 150 sp/150 sp spent, Bulk: 5 and 8/10 L

Level 2
Barbarian Feat: Cleric Dedication (Gorum)
Skill Feat: Fleet

You're beloved of Gorum, god of smashing face. You channel his holy power through cantrips between rounds of rage. If using a two-handed weapon, you'll need to release one hand using an action either the round before rage ends or on your initial action to cast the spell, unfortunately. Chill Touch is a great one to use on your Rage cooldown. The rules are unclear whether you can apply Strength to touch attacks rather than Dexterity, since p. 197 says "melee touch attacks have the finesse trait" and p. 182 says "you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier when making attack rolls" rather than "you use your Dexterity modifier" or "you must use your Dexterity modifier".

Recommended equipment: As above, plus a minor healing potion now you've got one RP per day - (0/1 RP invested).

Level 3
General Feat: Adopted Ancestry (Human)
Skill Increase: Athletics

Here's a sneaky little rules work-around to squeak in an extra archetype feat. Per the archetypes rules on p. 279, " Once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites." We're setting up acquiring an extra Barbarian feat through Human Natural Ambition at 5th level granting us a 1st level Barbarian class feat, then converting that to any Cleric archetype feat instead.

Recommended equipment: As above, plus an acid flask and a wand of 1st level heal - (0/2 RP invested)

Level 4
Barbarian Feat: Basic Cleric Spellcasting
Skill Feat: Cat Fall

You get a single 1st level spell from the Divine list each day, plus your previous cantrips. Magic Weapon or Heal are both great options for your daily spell. However, we also have a potential alternative option: true strike. The rules are fuzzy on whether a multiclassed Cleric adds their deity's spells to their list, but the Cleric dedication feat states to "choose a deity as you would if you were a Cleric" and p. 70 states that a Cleric's deity adds spells to your spell list, so it's open to interpretation. Now normally, we couldn't use True Strike unless we were between Rage rounds, as it's a single Verbal action which requires concentration. However, since we can use Moment of Clarity, we suddenly become able to spend two actions during our rage to cast the single action True Strike spell, and our third action to Strike and roll twice, taking the better result whilst ignoring any circumstance penalties to our attack roll and negating any miss chance. Finally, at this level you can now activate your 1st level wand to heal yourself with your stunning 3 RP per day for 1d8+3.

Recommended equipment: As above, plus a wand of 1st level magic weapon and upgrade to a +1 breastplate - (0/3 RP invested)

Level 5
Ability Boosts: Str, Dex, Con, Wis
Ancestry Feat: Natural Ambition (Basic Dogma [Emblazon Symbol])
Skill Increase: Acrobatics

Assuming you've upgraded your breastplate, your maximum Dex bonus should still be sitting right on the limit for your armor per the rules for expert quality equipment. Meanwhile, our ancestry feat started as a dwarf, shaved and grew a few feet into a human, swung briefly through a barbarian phase, wandered halfway across the rulebook into the archetype section, then teleported back into the cleric class and settled as turning our weapon into a holy symbol. All this so we don't have to spend an action letting go of our weapon to cast spells. Ugh.

Recommended equipment: As above, plus a cold iron falchion (equal value to the listed cold iron warhammer from the loot table), and upgrade to a +1 greatsword - (0/4 RP invested)

Level 6
Barbarian Feat: Domain (Zeal)
Skill Feat: Fast Recovery

You get a 2nd level spell slot now, meaning you've got access to two heal spells per day. Assuming you can access Gorum's bonus spells, enlarge becomes an option here, otherwise a heightened heal is likely your default slot filler. Your domain power lets you spend one action for one spell point to add a stacking +1 to your weapon for your next attack that turn, adding extra damage dice and attack bonus as normal. Adding this one before sudden charge is a good opener against distant enemies, or if you've spent an action to enter a fresh rage and you're already in someone's face. You're also rocking a massive bonus to Fort saves from your skill feat, and heal faster when you rest, which is good news since you have a massive hit point pool to feed.

Recommended equipment: As above, plus a wand of 2nd level heal and add a Disrupting rune to your +1 greatsword - (0/5 RP invested)

Level 7
General Feat: Ancestral Paragon (Adapted Spell [Ray of Frost])
Skill Increase: Acrobatics

This level patches one of the most glaring holes in the build, that being a lack of effective ranged attacks. Again, we grab a general feat to enhance our deep, mystic, instinctive connection to our ancestry... our human one, that is. Cycling the general feat to an ancestry feat, we convert it into the human Adapted Spell to gain Ray of Frost, which means we must always devote one of our two cantrips to this spell but finally gives us a means of dealing some form of damage at a distance. Plus now you get to shoot ice lasers from your sword, which is totally cool.

Recommended equipment: As above, plus eyes of the eagle and a skeleton key - (1/6 RP invested)

Level 8
Barbarian Feat: Advanced Dogma (Advanced Domain)
Skill Feat: Feather Step

This is a great level for you, since you get both a 3rd level spell, as well as a bonus 3 SP. The domain ability prepare for battle is a great pre-combat boost to your initiative, but you might want to simply save the bonus SP you gained for extra weapon surges instead. As for your once per day 3rd level slot, either a heightened heal or a heroism spell are decent contenders for daily preparation.

Recommended equipment: As above, plus a wand of 3rd level heal and upgrade to a +2 breastplate - (1/7 RP invested)

Level 9
Ancestry Feat: Boulder Roll
Skill Increase: Athletics

Your ancestry feat lets you push medium or smaller creatures around, even off the edge of a cliff, the side of a ship, or into a pit of acid. If they resist you, you deal them level plus Strength mod damage even if they succeed their saving throw. It opens up a great number of tactical options for maneuvering the battlefield to your desires. Unlike the Shove action, this one requires no free hand and only allows an opposed check if they accept damage, which is well worth the extra action cost. And as if this wasn't enough, it doesn't have the Attack action, meaning it won't impose a -5 penalty for a Strike in the same round. Also, thanks to picking up the Feather Step skill feat last level, we can even use this action if the target's standing in difficult terrain.

Recommended equipment: As above, plus upgrade to a +2 greatsword and a +2 master-quality breastplate - (1/8 RP invested)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 08, 2018, 11:34:29 am

To kick off some random shenanigans I'm doing, I desire bad games. Now I don't mean worst games, I mean bad games. If your game fits on a "bottom of the barrel" list, I don't want it - it's been talked to death. But if it's above the bottom, but still in the lower half? Go for it!

F.A.T.A.L., Synnibar, VTNL? Not interested.

QuestCore, MEGA, GenIsys (distinct from Genesys, which is apparently pretty good), Chosen? More please.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 08, 2018, 12:19:34 pm

I thought FATAL would be at the bottom of that barrel tbh. DND 4E is a hilariously gross thing.

Quote from: Jimmy on August 08, 2018, 06:51:44 am

Got the Pathfinder Playtest PDF, and I've been screwing around with character building. The multiclassing system is lots of fun!

I've built a Barbarian/Cleric multiclass build up to level 9 so far, and I'm calling it the Acolyte of Rage.

Been meaning to testbuild a rogue sorcerer magician myself. Should be interesting the kinds of villains we can make now without having to mash things together with DM Fiat

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 08, 2018, 01:26:42 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on August 08, 2018, 12:19:34 pm

I thought FATAL would be at the bottom of that barrel tbh. DND 4E is a hilariously gross thing.

It most definitely is. I'm just bad at the whole wordy-talky thing. Fixed (hopefully).

And as for 4E, it's fine. It's a tactics game. If anyone else had made it, or WotC had called it Advanced Tactical Rooms and Rivals, people would love it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on August 09, 2018, 09:54:24 pm

Re: PF2.
My current character concept (which I may or may not use in this upcoming campaign depending on whether or not I get to be a player or GM, the jury's still out on that) is a gnome alchemist...but the way I'm putting her together now REALLY calls for a rogue multiclass later down the line.
(It's the Criminal background, probably.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 09, 2018, 10:22:49 pm

I, meanwhile, have built a barbarian for the Pathfinder Playtest that will probably multiclass to wizard. I interpreted the dragon totem as being possessed by one rather than merely worshipping it, and well, this barbarian will have a very cold rage as the green dragon takes over. This leaves ample room for scholarly pursuits to satisfy one's greed and pride, so wizardry seems inevitable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on August 10, 2018, 09:27:21 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 03, 2018, 11:08:33 pm

Last session was so intrigue-heavy that a gas station survived, and I was a little sad when I realized.

Sidequest time!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 11, 2018, 03:54:39 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 09, 2018, 10:22:49 pm

I, meanwhile, have built a barbarian for the Pathfinder Playtest that will probably multiclass to wizard. I interpreted the dragon totem as being possessed by one rather than merely worshipping it, and well, this barbarian will have a very cold rage as the green dragon takes over. This leaves ample room for scholarly pursuits to satisfy one's greed and pride, so wizardry seems inevitable.

Spoiler: Muscle Wizard Casts Fist! (click to show/hide)

(https://1d4chan.org/images/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 11, 2018, 07:41:41 am

I see your muscle wizard and raise you a plane of infinite fists and punching. (https://i.redditmedia.com/UInaT1D64Wt2PPEXb3UfP2Op5hKUtZHa_flBOY5x5OU.png?s=5398813020b533d2813767e66d22c433)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: deathpunch578 on August 17, 2018, 10:02:15 pm

I'm gonna be making a witch hunter character, so should I be ranger/fighter or ranger/paladin.
(playing 5e)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: quinnr on August 17, 2018, 10:35:15 pm

Anyone have experience with Fiasco (http://bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/)? I have a ton of the playset expansions for it and the core ruleset, but haven't actually played it. I have a friend who wants an introduction to RPGs and I thought that might be more fun as I don't think they'd really enjoy the complexity of most roleplaying games and the theme is more fitting to them, too. Also I like that the game is basically set up to be played as part of a movie night with recommended movies for each playset, which is a cute aside. Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 22, 2018, 09:12:52 am

I may have semi-inadvertently gotten myself invited to a new D&D group, with a meetup this Sunday. Supposedly very accommodating for newcomers, but I'm still a wee bit nervous. ...provided they do actually fit me in at all.

If they do, then this'll be my first ever real world D&D tomfoolery. It's 5e, with 7-8 people who have varying degrees of experience with the stuff.


Pretty much all I know about 5e is that it has Kendar, and that I'm not gonna be one. Most of my D&D experience is AD&D/2e, with a smattering of 3.5 thrown in because heya... How horrible of a munchkin should I aim to ruin this happy occasion with?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 22, 2018, 09:16:47 am

5e doesn't really have kender, it's just that every race had a paragraph about what said race was called in other systems, and the misguided know-nothings who wrote it insulted halflings everywhere by saying that the most bestest race of all was the same as kender in the dragonlance system.

Which is just plain wrong.

It's a no go.

You just don't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 22, 2018, 09:19:29 am

Quote from: scriver on August 22, 2018, 09:16:47 am

5e doesn't really have kender, it's just that every race had a paragraph about what said race was called in other systems, and the misguided know-nothings who wrote it insulted halflings everywhere by saying that the most bestest race of all was the same as kender in the dragonlance system.

Which is just plain wrong.

It's a no go.

You just don't.

This gives me a mightier irritation than just adding "Annoying little fucks" as a new race... I shall now choose to disregard this fact.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 22, 2018, 11:25:22 am

I had a rant written out. Rather than posting it, let's summarize it a bit.

• Fuck Kender
• Fuck whoever came up with the "everyone loves them despite their rampant theft serial borrowing oh and they're chosen by the gods so don't retaliate" thing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on August 22, 2018, 08:14:18 pm

Spoiler: relevant large-ish image and naughty words (click to show/hide)

(http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/2901271/images/1225260438675.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on August 22, 2018, 09:11:15 pm

i’m really glad that image was created

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 22, 2018, 09:39:29 pm

Thank you, Sirus, for reminding me of that copypasta.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 22, 2018, 11:39:19 pm

You know...  I can see how these annoying little shits totally misunderstood munchkins could make a fabulous addition as NPCs in a dungeon of doom, where their "(ahem) Incorruptible nature" and "inability to NOT steal things" has caused a perfect storm, where they have stolen a VERY SHINY thing, that also happens to be a conduit of unholy evil, placed there explicitly to "deal with them", by the gods of chaos and evil. (Let's say that the object projects into nearby sentient's minds the raw essence of pain and suffering-- causing vivid hallucinations that are never the same twice, but are always of the most horrific grimdark shit, that is incomprehensibly traumatic, intended to incite mortal races to the greatest feats of unspeakable evil. Kinda the ultimate evil motivational poster, but with added bonuses to goal achievement when carried.)

EG, the balance of the world is indeed maintained by having the munchkins suffer incomprehensibly from their "borrowing" this object, since ONLY THEY can permanently endure its influence without becoming unholy abominations. They need to be insufferably plucky, while languishing in the bowels of the dungeon of doom.

Oh, and the evil sorcerer just happens to be using the "processed" evil that magically fails to corrupt the little shits to sustain his unholy presence in the world (Let's say he draws power from their nightmares after they keep subjecting themselves to this object's influence), and is not actually enslaving them; No no no.. They are totally free and can leave whenever they want, they just dont, because he makes all kinds of neat things that they can pilfer "borrow", and the idea of releasing evil into the world is terrifying to them-- so they have a literal case of stockholm syndrome about the evil castle of terror that was constructed around their horrible munchkin village, and the horrifying arch-lich that built it.  That and the novelty of the object is infinite (because it never shows the same thing twice)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on August 22, 2018, 11:53:23 pm

Alternatively, one could run a kender travel agency and inflict them on other people while being paid for it. Just unload them, distract them until they forget you ever dropped them off, and watch blood pressures rise and paladins fall.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 23, 2018, 12:10:12 am

*Delivers shiny presents to the needy little kleptos at .99c*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 23, 2018, 03:13:49 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 23, 2018, 12:10:12 am

*Delivers shiny presents to the needy little kleptos at .99c*

*Delivers Kender to village, offers exorbitant Kender removal services*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 23, 2018, 06:51:13 am

Kender can't be corrupted because they were spawned in the very deepest pits of hell.

It's annoying that they put the red text on the page text so you can't actually read what it says though. It's a really kender thing to do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 23, 2018, 07:00:28 am

Which is exactly why they would feel perfectly fine, living free, in the bowels of the evil arch-lich's castle, being subjected to literal Lovecraftian mind fuck 24/7.

:)

They would even fight to STAY there!  Because the world needs them! :D (and every morning, they all share stories about what horrible nightmare vision they experienced the night before)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 23, 2018, 07:11:53 am

I can't help but imagine the final panels of this now.

All-Despising Baby Skull (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2490)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on August 23, 2018, 07:46:24 am

Aw man. I had forgotten the all-despising baby skull.

Just a flaming baby skull shouting ethnic slurs. Wow, my chest hurts from the laughing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 23, 2018, 07:49:48 am

That's it, it's official. the stolen artifact is a flaming baby skull, that in addition to causing horrible nightmare visions of incomprehensible horror-- also shouts an endless stream of ethnic profanities to everyone in earshot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 23, 2018, 08:00:05 am

Wasn't that an episode of Black Mirror?


Anyways, yeah. No word yet on actually getting accepted into the group (or denied, for that matter), I should probably do some sort of follow up and ask about stuff. I'm gonna have to get my hands on the books somehow, and presumably it's encouraged to bring snacks or something. Also might be helpful to know where it's supposed to happen, if it does happen.

Hopefully I can find a suitably stupid gimmick character to make in 5e. I remember a lot of extremely excellent ideas I slapped together back when Wrex was fiddling with some homebrew stuff, like the beefy psionic who conjured psy-greatswords and flung them at enemies, or the asshole spellcaster who transformed into a wolf and made everyone fall over. I also remember the difficulties in choosing between Mr. Crab and Mr. Bear for level one +30 grapple check shenanigans, and making a horrifying four-armed rat surgeon who could sneak attack for obscene amounts of damage.

I really shouldn't be allowed within 20 paces of character generation systems.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 23, 2018, 08:08:03 am

You could create a heavy metal bardbarian. Nothing in the rules stops you from using your bardic inspiration while raging. Then just homebrew an axe that is also an axe, pick a suitably metal race, practice your viking accent and you're set.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 23, 2018, 08:15:01 am

Valhallen, is that you!? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_3MgUpBIhs)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 23, 2018, 08:42:03 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 23, 2018, 08:08:03 am

You could create a heavy metal bardbarian. Nothing in the rules stops you from using your bardic inspiration while raging. Then just homebrew an axe that is also an axe, pick a suitably metal race, practice your viking accent and you're set.

Pretty sure everyone in the group is of nordic heritage, myself included. Not entirely sure how well pushing the pop-viking aspect would go...

Spoiler: There's always the craft berserker though (click to show/hide)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/21413m0.jpg)

Ever wonder why so many things in fantasy worlds are just normal items that have been overly decorated with skulls? This is why.

Also, I do still try to make characters that can at least hold their own in some way... I'm not quite at the point where I'd do a strength wizard just for the sake of doing a strength wizard; who then would be incapable of defeating or surviving anything. I would definitely do a "strength wizard" focused around using actually useful/horribly thoughtless magic to make them beat stuff up though, like Tenser's and whatnot.

Really though, I only know one other character in the group, so I haven't the foggiest what type of niche might need filling. With a batch of 8 people, I can't imagine there are too many areas left uncovered.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 23, 2018, 09:06:04 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 23, 2018, 08:42:03 am

Pretty sure everyone in the group is of nordic heritage, myself included. Not entirely sure how well pushing the pop-viking aspect would go...

Make it a realistic viking, then. Or play it even further with a Swedish Chef accent.

Quote

Really though, I only know one other character in the group, so I haven't the foggiest what type of niche might need filling. With a batch of 8 people, I can't imagine there are too many areas left uncovered.

With 8 characters, there's bound to be overlap in party roles, unless you invent silly new ones or go for rarer archetypes like mounted combat. And since it's 5e, don't worry about party composition so much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 23, 2018, 09:07:04 am

Go for a Finnisher.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 24, 2018, 02:15:32 pm

If you start at least 6th level, how about a strength based blade singer;
or a strength based rogue at any level?
A rogue is actually surprisingly susceptible to being strength based. Nothing requires you to use dexterity to sneak attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 24, 2018, 02:41:00 pm

Well, group's decided not to take on any new peeps seeing as they're already pretty big, so I'm off the hook in a sense. I know a couple other peeps who have semi-regular groups in the area, I suppose I could attempt to get out of my shell and actually ask if there are some openings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 24, 2018, 02:49:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on August 24, 2018, 02:15:32 pm

If you start at least 6th level, how about a strength based blade singer;
or a strength based rogue at any level?
A rogue is actually surprisingly susceptible to being strength based. Nothing requires you to use dexterity to sneak attack.

Sneak attacks must use a ranged or finesse weapon, so while you can use str with a rapier, no great sword sneak attacks, alas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 24, 2018, 03:24:25 pm

But you can dual wield a lance and a whip with proper feat and a mount.
Though you don't start proficient with it as a rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on August 24, 2018, 04:51:04 pm

I'd like to suggest that you take up the mantle of GARY, MASTER OF THE MUNDANE!

I can find the exact class order if you like, but it's rogue (1), knowledge cleric (2), knowledge bard (however many are left), warlock (2). Get all the skills, be the best wisdom/charisma castery sorta whatever.  Chew the scenery with every sentence and totally overdo the entire thing. 8 people is too many for a functional party and you're probably going to get bored as hell, so make your moment in the spotlight matter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 26, 2018, 05:52:53 pm

My party came within 2hp and a mediocre roll of merking our nemesis an entire story arc early. Good, yet frustrating.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 11:51:34 am

I keep trying to find this thread in the "Other Games" board... Hasn't worked yet.

So, since the first group didn't work out, I'm gonna see if I can man up to ask around a bit more and see if someone else has an opening. In the meantime, I've been trying to brush up a bit on 5e knowledge, and to that end I've been browsing some kind of repository/wiki-type thing.

Anyways... I've always had kind of a fascination with warlocks, having never gotten the chance to play as one (either in PnP form or in any vidyer games that actually happen to have playable warlocks featured in them, which aren't many). Reading up on 5e warlocks, there's a mention of a "pact boon" that you can pick up at 3rd level. One of the choices for such a boon is a tome you can put three cantrips in, regardless of which spell list the cantrips officially belong to. These can then be cast "at will".

Now, presumably that means forgoing any sort of material cost or other limits to spamming the damn things... So, naturally, I immediately thought about stuffing a book full of goodness like Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy and proceeding to just ruin everything by making rocks yell incessantly, opening and slamming doors repeatedly, or changing the flavor of someone's food right before they're about to eat it. Also the classic interpretation of Prestidigitation's "cleaning" effect to polish the fuck out of a surface and make it into either a fancy mirror or a frictionless death slab. Someone also brought up using Shape Water to form a bit of water into a small item, then freeze it into a solid so you now have a temporary whatever-it-is to do things with. Combine with Presti's flavoring and make popsicles on demand!

Seems like a big point towards being a warlock, honestly.


...again, I should never be allowed to design characters. Or play them, clearly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 28, 2018, 12:06:50 pm

I mean, if your group is okay with those kinds of munchkin shenanigans go ahead, but if they aren't then all a character like that does is wreck the game for everyone.  Not a judgment against you for wanting to play that way, just an observation of standard group dynamics.

Also, it can be amusing and educational about the system to come up with things like that.  Hell, I've experimented with some of the most asinine possible combinations of classes and races in a lot of different systems, it has allowed me as a DM to better deal with disruptive players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 28, 2018, 12:08:48 pm

It's pretty good, yeah. Both the warlocks I have are tome pact. That said...

There's no cantrip with an actual cost.

If you want a very small item briefly just use prestigidation. One of the affects it can have is:

Code: [Select]

You create a nonmagical trinket or a hand-sized illusionary image. It lasts until the end of your next turn.
I've used it in the past for keys, mainly. They can't be stolen from me because they last long enough for me to lock or unlock the object and then disappear, and I don't need to possess the original object.

I wouldn't agree that you could use it to polish something to almost frictionless either, since that doesn't fit the definition of cleaning. You're magically removing the dirt from something, not actually scrubbing it down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 12:32:06 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 28, 2018, 12:08:48 pm

There's no cantrip with an actual cost.

Odd, there are a couple cantrips listed here with material costs... Things like Dancing Lights, Mending, and Message. Or are low-level materials like that just considered as "covered" by a component pouch without having to specifically get them?

Of course, I suppose it's possible that this page is just willfully misleading, because after all, "We're not the PHB".

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 28, 2018, 12:08:48 pm

I wouldn't agree that you could use it to polish something to almost frictionless either, since that doesn't fit the definition of cleaning. You're magically removing the dirt from something, not actually scrubbing it down.

The difficulty comes when the object you're cleaning can itself be considered something that would be cleaned away... Such as "cleaning" a patch of dirt. Do you let someone dig a hole until there is no more dirt, or do you let them be more specific and define what dirt is dirtying the other dirt?

I'd heard the "polish a stone into a mirror" example given by someone who presumably knew a thing or two about the spell's uses and abuses, so I figured it was something people did. Still though, hiding in a kitchen and incessantly cooling a dish every time it comes off the stove seems like plenty enough reason to take Presti, even without a DM who lets you just *poof* goddamn keys into existence... I'm ashamed to say I missed that definition.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 28, 2018, 12:06:50 pm

I mean, if your group is okay with those kinds of munchkin shenanigans go ahead, but if they aren't then all a character like that does is wreck the game for everyone.  Not a judgment against you for wanting to play that way, just an observation of standard group dynamics.

Well, I mean, there's munchkinning and then there's munchkinning... Like, I of course want to make an effective character who can hold their own in a fight, but I also don't want to just make Minmax the Warrior to stomp upon all comers, because that gets boring.

Disguising wine as strawberry-flavored popsicles and terrorizing the local children sounds much more entertaining to me. Or abusing Minor Illusion's description stating that "you can create a sound of any volume", and hardballing a negotiation until the other party will do whatever it takes to please make the floor stop screaming.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on August 28, 2018, 01:33:39 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 12:32:06 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 28, 2018, 12:08:48 pm

There's no cantrip with an actual cost.

Odd, there are a couple cantrips listed here with material costs... Things like Dancing Lights, Mending, and Message. Or are low-level materials like that just considered as "covered" by a component pouch without having to specifically get them?

Any component without a listed gold cost can be substituted with a component pouch or spellcasting focus.  If it does list a gold cost, you need the actual component.

Also, if you are using components, they're not consumed unless the spell explicitly says they are (usually with the phrase "which the spell consumes"), so you can still spam e.g. Message using the same piece of copper wire for all castings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 28, 2018, 02:07:16 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 12:32:06 pm

Odd, there are a couple cantrips listed here with material costs... Things like Dancing Lights, Mending, and Message. Or are low-level materials like that just considered as "covered" by a component pouch without having to specifically get them?

Of course, I suppose it's possible that this page is just willfully misleading, because after all, "We're not the PHB".

As Biowraith said, a component does not have a material cost listed (e.g Augury, which requires specially marked sticks, bones, or similar tokens worth at least 25 gp) then it is considered covered by a component pouch or arcane focus.

Quote from: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 12:32:06 pm

The difficulty comes when the object you're cleaning can itself be considered something that would be cleaned away... Such as "cleaning" a patch of dirt. Do you let someone dig a hole until there is no more dirt, or do you let them be more specific and define what dirt is dirtying the other dirt?

The spell could just fail. Neither of those outcomes is really cleaning something.

Prestidigitation is good, but it's not do-everything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 28, 2018, 02:51:31 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 28, 2018, 02:07:16 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 12:32:06 pm

Odd, there are a couple cantrips listed here with material costs... Things like Dancing Lights, Mending, and Message. Or are low-level materials like that just considered as "covered" by a component pouch without having to specifically get them?

Of course, I suppose it's possible that this page is just willfully misleading, because after all, "We're not the PHB".

As Biowraith said, a component does not have a material cost listed (e.g Augury, which requires specially marked sticks, bones, or similar tokens worth at least 25 gp) then it is considered covered by a component pouch or arcane focus.

Furthermore, unless specifically noted, you don't lose the materials upon casting the spell. So if you only need a piece of copper wire for your Message, you probably don't need a full component pouch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 28, 2018, 03:12:10 pm

A piece of copper wire? That's a neato reference. Or injoke. Or whatever you want to call it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 03:26:15 pm

Quote from: scriver on August 28, 2018, 03:12:10 pm

A piece of copper wire? That's a neato reference. Or injoke. Or whatever you want to call it.

Who even knows, man... I mean, this is 5e, with the "let's make things cyberpunk!" BookLoadable Content extension.

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 28, 2018, 02:51:31 pm

Furthermore, unless specifically noted, you don't lose the materials upon casting the spell. So if you only need a piece of copper wire for your Message, you probably don't need a full component pouch.

Huh. See, for some reason I was used to the thought of it consuming said materials under normal circumstances. Not sure if that's actually the way it was in earlier versions, or if that's just something I misinterpreted, but there you have it.

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on August 28, 2018, 02:07:16 pm

The spell could just fail. Neither of those outcomes is really cleaning something.

Sure they are, all depending on how you define "cleaning". There are more solid, non-dirt layers in soil composition, and there are significant differences between a tended patch of dirt and a non-tended patch of dirty. Hell, I've personally seen shiny, slippery floors that were composed entirely of mud... All it really comes down to is how much your DM feels like interpreting/arguing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 28, 2018, 03:34:32 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 28, 2018, 03:26:15 pm

Quote from: scriver on August 28, 2018, 03:12:10 pm

A piece of copper wire? That's a neato reference. Or injoke. Or whatever you want to call it.

Who even knows, man... I mean, this is 5e, with the "let's make things cyberpunk!" BookLoadable Content extension.

Heh, copper wire for Message and Sending was a thing in 3.5 too.  Probably earlier.  A lot of spells have amusing components/focii like that...  At first I thought they were just jokes, but I think it's a nod to sympathetic magic.

My favorite is still a pork rind for the Grease spell, though the bat guano for Fireball comes close.  It's very combustable!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 28, 2018, 08:26:51 pm

My D&D group is entering a new arc. We're going to be building up a frontier town on a large island. I've considered semi-retiring my kobold bard and rolling up a monstrous local.

Let it be known that my spell choices may be semi-optimal but stats and race/class combinations never are. I know I'm going lizardfolk. The only question that remains is class. I'm going to play up the shamanism angle, leading me to look at some mystic disciplines or the shepherd druid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 05:20:26 am

Aha. Did a little more digging, learned something new. I wasn't aware that 5e cantrips could be cast repeatedly under normal circumstances, I thought they still had their own "level 0" spell slots that they spent. So the tome pact is basically just getting access to more cantrips from potentially off-limits lists? I mean, that's still nice, I just thought that the inscribed turnips were somehow more free than usual.

I primarily associated warlocks with spamcasting, so they're the class I looked at first for magical tomfoolery. If everyone gets "free" turnips, then I suppose that broadens the shenanigan spectrum now doesn't it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 29, 2018, 05:28:04 am

I was under the impression that a cantrip could cause literally ANY effect, but it was always a *WORTHLESS* one.

EG, it makes sparkles and pretty lights-- or a nasty stink (but no toxic effects), or something similar.

A cantrip is something the caster can perform freely, because they used it to help hone their ability to focus and use magic, a sort of mnemonic device of a sort. At least that was my understanding of what a cantrip is....

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 29, 2018, 06:37:33 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 05:20:26 am

...  I just thought that the inscribed turnips were somehow more free than usual.

... If everyone gets "free" turnips, then I suppose that broadens the shenanigan spectrum now doesn't it?

I love this.

Quote from: wierd on August 29, 2018, 05:28:04 am

I was under the impression that a cantrip could cause literally ANY effect, but it was always a *WORTHLESS* one.

Not worthless. There's Light, Mending, and loads of useful utility spells. Most of the damaging cantrips increase in damage as you level. Amongst these: Acid Splash, Eldritch Blast, Sacred Flame, Vicious Mockery.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on August 29, 2018, 06:49:07 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 05:20:26 am

So the tome pact is basically just getting access to more cantrips from potentially off-limits lists?

Initially yes, but tome pact also opens up an Invocation that lets the warlock add spells above cantrip level (spell level up to half their warlock level) from any spell list to their tome, so long as the spell has the Ritual tag.  They can only cast those spells as rituals though (doesn't use up a spell slot, adds 10 minutes to the cast time).

Edit: And not specific to tome pact, but Eldritch Blast is only on the Warlock spell lists and is one of the best damaging cantrips (the best if the Warlock takes the relevant Invocation(s) to enhance it).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 29, 2018, 07:26:46 am

5E warlock is basically a magical archer first and foremost, eldritch blast scales in number of shots as you level and they can buff it in various ways with Invocations. Hex as a spell can buff the damage further and you basically zap things.

Alternatively there's some fun things you can do with Blade warlocks. Spell Sniper (feat) lets you use the melee cantrips from SCAG with reach weapons and warlock can make a better melee damager than other casters.

Chainlocks get a familiar that's useful for scouting or handing out advantage with the aid another action. They also get an invocation to maximise all healing they get, so they pair well with the Celestial Patron.



One build I like the idea of is Scourge Aasimar (from Volo's Guide) Paladin or Fighter 1, Phoenix Sorcerer 1 (from an unearthed arcana article) and then Celestial Warlock 6 (from Xanathar's) with the Greenflame Blade cantrip (from SCAG).

Scourge Aasimar can go into what is basically a divine rage once per long rest as a bonus action, Phoenix Sorcerer can do a fire themed rage once per long rest as an action, together you basically burst into radiant flames for a minute in major fights doing mild AoE damage, mild melee revenge damage and adding your level in radiant damage to one attack/spell and your charisma to fire damage rolls each round. At Celestial warlock 6 you add charisma to one fire damage roll again.

You scale slower than a more mundane fighter/paladin build, and you are more MAD than a hexblade is, but you wind up dealing (weapon damage + Str) +(1d8 + charisma) and 1d8 + charisma*2 fire damage to another target within 5 feet, and you can add your charisma to one fire damage roll again, and your level as radiant damage to one roll and everyone in 10 feet (including you) takes half your level in radiant damage each round and anyone who hits you takes your charisma in fire damage.

You essentially become an armoured pillar of holy fire once per day, and then you add actual spells and invocations on top for versatility or more damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on August 29, 2018, 08:05:07 am

I'm playing a paladin (Goliath though, not Aasimar) in a game right now and I've been thinking of a similar build, although celestial warlock is flavorfully cool, I find it a bit hard to justify taking it over more sorcerer levels. Eldritch Smite, Lifedrinker and Radiant Soul are cool, but don't compared well to all of sorcerer and paladin spellcasting (which is conviently upgraded by sorcerer levels so long as you have 2 paladin levels first) especially when thirsting blade doesn't stack with green flame blade and you can use those high level spell slots from sorcerer to empower your smites fairly freely (Of course, warlock can smite even more freely, although less powerfully...) as you quicken out multiple high level smites a turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 08:09:26 am

Quote from: Mephisto on August 29, 2018, 06:37:33 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 05:20:26 am

turnips

I love this.

I don't know why, but since the very first time I read the word "cantrip", my mind has always tried to read or interpret it as "turnip"... Which makes no sense beyond just ending in '-ip', especially since Neverwinter Nights doesn't even have turnips in it.

The first time writing it out here was more of a brain fart than anything, but when getting ready to correct it I decided "Nah, this works" and just went with it. I like it this way.

Quote from: Biowraith on August 29, 2018, 06:49:07 am

Initially yes, but tome pact also opens up an Invocation that lets the warlock add spells above cantrip level (spell level up to half their warlock level) from any spell list to their tome, so long as the spell has the Ritual tag.  They can only cast those spells as rituals though (doesn't use up a spell slot, adds 10 minutes to the cast time).

Yeah, rituals invocation looked interesting, even without knowing how rituals worked... But having rituals also be slot-free sounds particularly lovely. Actually, come to think of it, can't you just pick/learn Find Familiar, stick it in the book and have ghetto Chain Pact?

Y'know, going through the various patrons mentioned, my first thought upon checking out the Raven Queen was "I could take pact of the chain and get TWO ravens!", which... Uh. Yeah. Good for Odin cosplays, I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 29, 2018, 09:12:21 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on August 29, 2018, 08:05:07 am

I'm playing a paladin (Goliath though, not Aasimar) in a game right now and I've been thinking of a similar build, although celestial warlock is flavorfully cool, I find it a bit hard to justify taking it over more sorcerer levels. Eldritch Smite, Lifedrinker and Radiant Soul are cool, but don't compared well to all of sorcerer and paladin spellcasting (which is conviently upgraded by sorcerer levels so long as you have 2 paladin levels first) especially when thirsting blade doesn't stack with green flame blade and you can use those high level spell slots from sorcerer to empower your smites fairly freely (Of course, warlock can smite even more freely, although less powerfully...) as you quicken out multiple high level smites a turn.

It'd take a while to come online, but by level 10 two more sorcerer levels would get the quicken metamagic for 1 gfb and 1 quickened gfb each turn, and you can apply eldritch smite and divine smite to the melee hit in the gfb, so a second paladin level at 11 could result in some beefy burst damage. Would probably be better at mook blending than boss smashing though, gfb is better than a normal hit, but it's heavily weakened against single targets.

Probably still nowhere near as good as a sorcadin smite build mind you, that just has so much staying power, but more thematic I feel. Probably better than the average Eldritch Knight though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2018, 09:25:48 am

I would like to do a Fey Knight Warlock of Weaponpact/Paladin of NaturejoyGreenKnight Oath.

Let's go around taking orders from strange women lying in ponds distributing swords.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on August 29, 2018, 10:11:54 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 08:09:26 am

Yeah, rituals invocation looked interesting, even without knowing how rituals worked... But having rituals also be slot-free sounds particularly lovely.

It's maybe worth noting (in case you weren't already aware) that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and Bards can all ritual cast by default in the same way (slot-free, +10 minute cast time).  They all need to have the spell prepared/memorised, except the Wizard who just needs it to be in his spellbook.  But unlike Tome Warlocks they're restricted to their own spell lists and apart from Wizards can't scribe new spells they come across in their travels.  On the other hand they all tend to have a lot more spell slots available for non-ritual casting (if we're still looking for maximum magical tomfoolery).

Quote

Actually, come to think of it, can't you just pick/learn Find Familiar, stick it in the book and have ghetto Chain Pact?

Pretty much, yes.  Weaker familiar and more restrictions on how you interact with it, but yeah you can definitely do that.  Similarly anyone with enough Int or Wis could take the Ritual Caster feat for ghetto Tome Pact (only one spell list, though it doesn't need to be Warlock, only able to ritual cast spells from the feat, and obviously uses up a feat/ASI pick)... and via that also get Find Familiar.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 29, 2018, 12:38:59 pm

I believe someone said Fallen aasimar have bonus action Necrotic Shroud, but I am pretty sure Necrotic shroud is a bonus action.

Also, seriously, someone thought cantrips are all useless? Guidance, even with all its limitations, can give free +1d4 to any ability check, so your Faces have better Persuasion, your thieves better trap detection and disarming, your wizard better History and Arcana.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2018, 01:25:36 pm

God, I dislike the names "Fallen Aasimar" or "Scourge Aasimar"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 29, 2018, 01:41:10 pm

I think Fallen Aasimar sounds fine, they're basically mortal Fallen Angels. Protector and Scourge Aasimar sound stupid to me, but Protector in particular.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 01:47:17 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on August 29, 2018, 12:38:59 pm

Also, seriously, someone thought cantrips are all useless? Guidance, even with all its limitations, can give free +1d4 to any ability check, so your Faces have better Persuasion, your thieves better trap detection and disarming, your wizard better History and Arcana.

Your hamster better butt-kicking...


Also, this site's a bit weird. Judging from the formatting, "Mark of Scribing" is apparently a subrace of gnomes.

"Greetings small fellow, and what might you be?" "Mark."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 29, 2018, 02:00:38 pm

Eberron weirdness. Mark of X is a dragonmark thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 03:23:12 pm

Quote from: Barbarian Path Benefits

Elk Totem Attunement: While raging, you can use a bonus action during your move to pass through the space of a Large or smaller creature. That creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus) or be knocked prone and take bludgeoning damage equal to 1d12 + your Strength modifier.

Beep beep, motherfuckers.


I can just see a halfling barbarian doing this and tripping people up like a particularly annoying cat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2018, 03:32:56 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 29, 2018, 01:41:10 pm

I think Fallen Aasimar sounds fine, they're basically mortal Fallen Angels.

I would like them to be nothing of the sort

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 03:39:42 pm

Quote from: scriver on August 29, 2018, 03:32:56 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 29, 2018, 01:41:10 pm

I think Fallen Aasimar sounds fine, they're basically mortal Fallen Angels.

I would like them to be nothing of the sort

It's for when tieflings aren't edgy enough, and your DM won't allow Drow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 29, 2018, 04:52:27 pm

Or people pick it because it's fun.

Like the guy in my party. Light-hearted fun-German-accented (less Third Reich, more... gay German, I guess?) aasimar paladin. Then shit goes down, he wades into the middle of a group of enemies, and goes emo for a few rounds, and returns to his happy-go-lucky self.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 29, 2018, 05:01:00 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on August 29, 2018, 04:52:27 pm

Or people pick it because it's fun.

Like the guy in my party. Light-hearted fun-German-accented (less Third Reich, more... gay German, I guess?) aasimar paladin. Then shit goes down, he wades into the middle of a group of enemies, and goes emo for a few rounds, and returns to his happy-go-lucky self.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/9yyGjbg.jpg)

I apologize, but only slightly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 29, 2018, 05:02:53 pm

Honestly one of my favorite -ball comics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2018, 05:08:33 pm

My favourite is the one with Swedenball and the bunny hopping

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 08:01:31 am

Here we go... Air genasi druid: Levitate yourself, then transform into a shark or whale or something and have someone shove you towards the enemy so you can bite them. Genius!


Now, question regarding wild shape... It says "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.", but how does one define "physically capable of doing so"? Like, does a bugbear druid get to keep its powerful build and extra 5' reach? Or is that not considered "possible" for the form they've melded into? Because being able to morph into a large beastie and then run around with longer reach and +1 size class for pushing/pulling things seems like a great source of shenanigans. Even if size rules seem to be a little less fleshed-out than in earlier versions, from what I can tell...

And presumably the "must have seen this beast before" requirement doesn't let you do the giant version of something if you've only seen the normal one. Just stands to reason, considering the massive gap of abilities between normal and giant variants, even accounting for CR.


Anyways, between the lack of size rules and wild shape's limitation to 1 hour per use, 2/rest, I'm not sure shapeshifting is gonna be the thing for me in 5e... It's a shame, shapeshifting has almost always been a source of magnificent shenanigans. Not to say it's without uses, of course, but y'know...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 31, 2018, 08:33:49 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 08:01:31 am

Here we go... Air genasi druid: Levitate yourself, then transform into a shark or whale or something and have someone shove you towards the enemy so you can bite them. Genius!

A giant squid can hold its breath to survive in air and has lots of health and good attacks.

Quote

Now, question regarding wild shape... It says "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.", but how does one define "physically capable of doing so"? Like, does a bugbear druid get to keep its powerful build and extra 5' reach?

A bugbear's reach comes from its long arms, which the new form probably doesn't have. It probably goes down to GM ruling, but consider whether the feature or ability requires specific equipment or anatomy and you'll have a general picture. A barbarian's rage probably works but a rogue's sneak attack needs a finesse weapon and a dragonborn's breath needs whatever organ produces it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 09:42:54 am

The new form also wouldn't have a powerful build, as that's also presumably part of the bugbear's physiology and not just its lifting technique. It's just not communicated very well by the... Anything. A bugbear is also sneaky by default, but can that be applied when you're a giant toad, or is it tied directly to the buggy's slouching form/whatever? Is a kenku's mimicry more a knack for voices or a special adaptation of their vocal cords? So, yeah, GM ruling.

I do find it a little strange though that bugbears have arms so long that they can slap someone a full five feet farther away than anyone else... Gangly bastards.

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 31, 2018, 08:33:49 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 08:01:31 am

Here we go... Air genasi druid: Levitate yourself, then transform into a shark or whale or something and have someone shove you towards the enemy so you can bite them. Genius!

A giant squid can hold its breath to survive in air and has lots of health and good attacks.

Yeah, but I just enjoy the imagery of making a one-man sharknado... Even if the sharks aren't really all that great combat-wise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 31, 2018, 09:48:30 am

Only player character bugbears have the extra reach thing.

Presumably their hideous squid-like arms are what got them drummed out their tribe and into the adventuring life.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 31, 2018, 10:32:06 am

Yeah, most race-specific traits aren't kept since they're literally due to your physiology. Class abilities tend to be kept, however, so sneak attack, spell casting, rage, performances (if possible; you could sing or dance but likeloy not orate or play an instrument) are all kept.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on August 31, 2018, 10:33:47 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 08:01:31 am

Anyways, between the lack of size rules and wild shape's limitation to 1 hour per use, 2/rest, I'm not sure shapeshifting is gonna be the thing for me in 5e... It's a shame, shapeshifting has almost always been a source of magnificent shenanigans. Not to say it's without uses, of course, but y'know...

I'll say about shapeshifting the limit is a lot less harsh then it might seem. (Also it's per short rest, which are a lot easier to come by then long rests). Shapeshifting might not be the practically unlimited amount druids could get in previous versions but, and especially at lower levels, it's still very strong, especially as Circle of the Moon druid. 2/short rest is enough in my experience to stay in a big tanky form for most fights (although the game seems to be balanced around some weird fight structure, actually following that structure narratively seems practically impossible to me imo, so even though you're only limited to 2 uses, I think most of the time you'll be able to go though multiple fights per hour.) at low levels which can totally just overwhelm the cr appropriate enemies for a couple of levels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 31, 2018, 10:42:14 am

Gees, you get your shapes back after an hour in 5e? That's way better than how 3.5 handled it. I dunno if you still get a shift/level but that's a pretty serious buff considering I'd stay in hawk form for overland travel in 3.5e

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 11:24:47 am

I'm kinda interested in how you can get a 15' melee range with a bugbear using a reach weapon... Use something like the "lunging attack" fighter kit maneuver and you're reaching out to touch someone 20' away. Or just take tunnel fighter style and make free attacks of opportunity on anything inside 15' of your position, and a reaction attack on anything daring to move more than 5' while in that range.

That's some serious helicopter squid arm nonsense.


Also, I see wild sorcerers are still a thing, just in case living is too dull. Currently trying to dispel the fog of What around psionics and understand how they tick, but I don't know how many groups even roll with psiboys.

Quote from: Criptfeind on August 31, 2018, 10:33:47 am

I'll say about shapeshifting the limit is a lot less harsh then it might seem. (Also it's per short rest, which are a lot easier to come by then long rests). Shapeshifting might not be the practically unlimited amount druids could get in previous versions but, and especially at lower levels, it's still very strong, especially as Circle of the Moon druid. 2/short rest is enough in my experience to stay in a big tanky form for most fights (although the game seems to be balanced around some weird fight structure, actually following that structure narratively seems practically impossible to me imo, so even though you're only limited to 2 uses, I think most of the time you'll be able to go though multiple fights per hour.) at low levels which can totally just overwhelm the cr appropriate enemies for a couple of levels.

Certainly, especially considering some of the beefcakes that are ranked as CR 1 (I'm level 2 now? Yeah, I'll just turn into a giant hyena and go full rage mode). However, for out-of-combat uses the hour restriction starts biting a bit more. Things like turning yourself into a beast of burden or Druid Airways First Class Seating to handle more logistical tasks is hampered more than flopping into battle as some horrific titan and blasting everyone with over-the-top multiattacks. And without mostly-harmless shenanigans to fall back on, how can I validate my munchkinnery in such an event?

Quote from: Gentlefish on August 31, 2018, 10:32:06 am

Yeah, most race-specific traits aren't kept since they're literally due to your physiology. Class abilities tend to be kept, however, so sneak attack, spell casting, rage, performances (if possible; you could sing or dance but likeloy not orate or play an instrument) are all kept.

See, this is where the communication kind of falls apart, because Wild Shape expressly says "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source[...]", with the only caveats being "[...]if the new form is physically capable of doing so.", and no sensory abilities (darkvision) unless the new form also has that sensory ability.

So if you can't cast racial spells because being shapeshifted prevents spellcasting, can't use racial physical features because they're tied to that race's physique, and can't use racial senses... What exactly are the racial features you can benefit from?


As for how many times you can use it, it's strictly 2 uses per short rest, until level 20. At which point it becomes unlimited, because everything at level 20 is just broken anyways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on August 31, 2018, 11:34:49 am

It's totally up to your gm what you keep. Which can be very little as Gentlefish says, or a whole heck of a lot. I'd still let you keep racial spellcasting personally (you know, at level 18 anyway...) because that's some inner power connected to your soul or whatever and not strictly a physical thing. Equally depending on the setting I may or may not let you keep dragonborn breath weapons. And For instance I might let a wood elf keep fey ancestry, trance, fleet of foot and mask of the wild. But I'd understand if a GM didn't let me keep any or all of those. In my current game I'm running all the "races" are just different cultures of humans, so I let my druid keep all of his racial abilities, because they are ultimately a result of cultural upbringing and not some physical difference even though his culture gets some power physical abilities.

Do psionics even exist in 5e yet? Edit: I see, looks like there's a single UA for a psionic class. Interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 31, 2018, 11:49:13 am

What about Barbarian Naked Armour? Anyone wanna roll a Barbarian Druid Bear-serker?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 31, 2018, 12:05:10 pm

Dont get me started on bearbarians. My GM threw an awakened grizzlybear with 10 levels of barbarian at us at level 13 and it took us an hour to put it down it had so much health.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 04:03:16 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on August 31, 2018, 12:05:10 pm

Dont get me started on bearbarians. My GM threw an awakened grizzlybear with 10 levels of barbarian at us at level 13 and it took us an hour to put it down it had so much health.

Wilson? Is that you?

Quote from: Criptfeind on August 31, 2018, 11:34:49 am

Do psionics even exist in 5e yet? Edit: I see, looks like there's a single UA for a psionic class. Interesting.

Yes, and it's... I don't know, maybe I'm the only one thinking it's somewhat muddled.

Quote

Psionic talents:

• You can never use your psychic focus on a talent.

Quote

Psychic Assault
Psychic Focus effect: While focused on this discipline, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with psionic talents that deal psychic damage.

There doesn't seem to be any generic "expend focus to do X", you can only burn your focus on certain feats that specifically mention that you use up your focus when doing so. So... Is it supposed to mean that you can't apply passive focus effects to talents? But then there's a passive focus effect that only applies to talents.


Yeah... Nah. Let 'em weirdboyz stay where they are, plenty enough to go around without bringing them into the mix.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on August 31, 2018, 04:13:39 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 04:03:16 pm

There doesn't seem to be any generic "expend focus to do X", you can only burn your focus on certain feats that specifically mention that you use up your focus when doing so. So... Is it supposed to mean that you can't apply passive focus effects to talents? But then there's a passive focus effect that only applies to talents.

Yeah, that seems to be what it means. It's not worded very well (not that surprising since it's UA) but since specific case trumps general case the specific case of Psychic Assault would certainly trump the general case focus not effecting talents.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 04:38:59 pm

Quote

Totemic Attunement

• Eagle: While raging you have a flying speed equal to your current walking speed. This benefit works only in short bursts; you fall if you end your turn in the air and nothing else is holding you aloft.

Ever been so angry that you just fucking achieve liftoff?


I like that there's also a barbarian kit that lets people resurrect you for free. That seems appropriate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on August 31, 2018, 07:22:18 pm

I mean, the fact that you land at the end of your turn makes it more like a jump. Though I guess you can still do midair maneuvers, like double-jumping, with it. So I guess it's more like a wuxia jump.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 01, 2018, 03:12:43 am

Considering you can get a walking speed of 55 feet when doing that, 65 if you're a centaur... That's still a pretty damn good vertical.

Sproink.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 01, 2018, 03:22:07 am

The world record for high jump is 245 cm, or just over 8 feet. Sadly, our barbarian would probably get disqualified from any competitions for all the murder that the rage tends to be followed by.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 01, 2018, 03:53:13 am

So.. what happens should the invidual's mood be forcibly altered, while in mid-air?  Do they fall catastrophically and go splat?  55m/sec vertical takeoff is about 165ft/sec, meaning if they actually went up that hight, they should take some significant impact damage should that happen.

I am thinking-- influence from a mind-altering monster, like a flayer. (But mind altering drugs are also a thing.  Think, weaponized morphine or something.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 01, 2018, 04:02:38 am

It'd be closer to 3 m/s, as it's 55 feet over a 6-second turn (or double that with a Dash). There are few ways to end a barbarian's rage early, especially in the middle of its turn, but I'd imagine the regular rule of 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen (max 20d6) would apply.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 01, 2018, 04:18:46 am

I had too look up the sound barrier to see if they broke it but unfortunately they are nowhere near it :(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 01, 2018, 04:20:26 am

Falling happens instantaneously, right? So you can't just zoom upwards, end your turn, fall back down a ways, and start your next turn mid-air to once again fly away? Not that it'd work anyways with rage rules, but just checking.

In other news, my mind has decided to preoccupy itself with such highly important topics as "Sorcer-O's: The original rings of power!" and "VitaMINMAX dietary supplement: Everything a body needs, and NOTHING else!"

Quote from: scriver on September 01, 2018, 04:18:46 am

I had too look up the sound barrier to see if they broke it but unfortunately they are nowhere near it :(

*Yelling*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 01, 2018, 04:23:38 am

Well actually I guess the falling is happening on your turn too. So it's more like you jump for 3 seconds and land for 3. Isn't it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 02, 2018, 12:31:21 am

So Cthulhu-NWoD campaign...

Hart: "Hey Lauren!  We're robospiders now!"
*passes 4 derangement checks*
Lauren: "Hell yeah, Hart!"
*4-appendage high 5, goes completely insane*

My character:  *is unconscious, tried desperately to avoid the Enlightenment offer, got knocked out and dragged into the Yuggoth portal by my "allies"*

Hart: "So this is what happens when Lauren and I lead the investigation"
Me: "MMHM."
Lauren: "Hey, we made progress!"
*All laugh, myself included*

GM asks Hart and I to decide what entity Lauren can never believe in, due to her derangement.
Hart: "Vampires!"  (We are all ghouls of vampires)
Me: "...Yeah.  Yeah, Vampires.  Ehehehe, you are the Masquerade."

Frick though, I'm not clear on how this will work for them.  I think the Migo are offering my character a choice, so I'll probably only remember this as a dream, and otherwise keep my character.  I'm really unclear on what the other two actually are... brain cylinders with spider legs...  But possibly in charge of their old bodies some of the time?  I need to pay more attention.

...Oh wow, the witch we abducted who gave us this "Enlightenment" offer was a Shub-Niggurath worshipe-
"Add contact: Migo" MY FUCKING SIDES, I LOVE THIS

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 02, 2018, 01:05:55 am

Let me get this straight-- they performed a complex cyberization surgery on your players, without also enslaving them in the mines of Yuggoth? What "exactly" did they trade for such a boon?

(Dont play this game, but am acutely familiar with lovecraft's work. The Migo dont play nice. They should be concerned what the migo intend to do with their old bodies. Ask Mr Akeley (http://lovecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Henry_Wentworth_Akeley) about what they did with his... ;P)

On a more "Let's roll with it and have lots of FUN" angle...  The migo brain cylinder tech is highly modular. (or at least, the short story describes it as such)  Any chances of them "Appropriating" more... "advanced" "Combat oriented" models later? ;P 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 02, 2018, 02:07:36 am

The Migo (nicknamed Mittens) got at-will control of two low-ranking EPA agents!  ...Who are actually basically Mulder/Scuzzy tier, plus a third partner (my character) who they didn't deign to brainjack without consent.  Oh and... our characters have vampire-ghoul powers too.

Put another way, they have control of an paranormal paranormal investigation team which is located at a critical moment in the elder gods/old ones "conflict".  Dagon is one sacrifice from incarnation, and is allied with other old ones we've yet to identify. 

Our investigation was reminding me a lot of Yahtzee's game The Consuming Shadow (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=70414.msg7252063#msg7252063), trying to figure out which mythos beings were threatening the world, and which were potential allies.  Several seem basically neutral, but potentially useful (their factions, anyway).

Giving their brains to the Migo gave a data dump.  Mostly on Yoggoth, but a lot of pretty explicit answers...  Most of which my character, the primary scholar, isn't privy to:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

red team, elder gods: nyarlathotep yog-sogoth shub-niggurath
blue team, old ones sealed inside of earth by elder gods: Dagon, Cthulhu probably

Migo allied with elder gods, living on pluto I mean yuggoth.  Don't go in the deep pity.  Or... most places.  Its moon is a ritual nexus.
Dagon needs Alphy sacrificed to receive a physical form
Destroying Earth would release the old ones, so elder gods don't.  It's a prison.

Azazoth: idiot god sleeps all the time (outside scale of everything)

as I'm typing this, they're discussing that vampire powers like Astral Projection would travel at light speed, so there's a ~5 hour delay since the powers originate from their stolen brains.
I'm so sleepy lol

Edit:  Note to self:  Don't forget to describe the A Christmas Carol play, AKA the third (second?) time we murdered the Mage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 02, 2018, 05:55:39 pm

Bit a basilisk to death today, then made a dart out of it's corpse.

Also got my first magical weapon in 5e, a custom mcguffin weapon. Our GMs got us seeking out 6 elemental artifacts, air, earth, fire, water, light and darkness which correspond to our PCs and our two NPC companions. When we find an elemental artifact it turns into a weapon. Our Rogue got a dagger that does the same damage as an Air Elemental plus her own damage bonuses a few sessions ago, I've now got a tail-blade that does the damage of an Earth Elemental plus my bonuses to damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 03, 2018, 10:36:08 am

I was working up to asking a brief acquaintance about the possibility of joining their group, when I got a message from the previous chick who said that they've got a new group/campaign forming when the DM moves closer, so there's a possibility of getting in sometime in October if I'm still hep.


But that's not important right now...  What is important are dragonborn draconic bloodline sorcerers with two different ancestor colors and "A very complicated family history".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: TheBiggerFish on September 05, 2018, 08:53:17 am

Huh, that's actually kinda strong if each counts for both purposes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on September 05, 2018, 10:28:35 am

Pretty sure they wouldn't though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 05, 2018, 10:43:57 am

Jakiro Jakiro

I never really knew that he could burn like this
He makes a man want to speak Spanish
Estás en fuego (sí)
Consuelo (sí)
Mi taco (Jakiro Jakiro), se frío

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 05, 2018, 09:43:22 pm

<sub>Shhh guys, I want to do something silly
So there are three of us players in the insane vampire-ghoul Mythos campaign, and we have a private (but not secret) skype chat for lore discussion and decision making.  It was the GM's suggestion, in fact.
Well, we just had a google docs vote, with one of the player's absent.  It currently stands at 2 Aye, out of 3 votes.  We can both see the result, but we've got a democracy meme going on (last time they both voted in my absence, and I voted along so "my voice would be heard").

Thing is, Vaarsuvius made it anonymous for funsies.</sub>

*Poll removed so the GM doesn't see it*
Hehe thanks guys.  The other players figured out what I did, since I've linked this thread a lot, but it was a laugh.  We're definitely doing the plan, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 06, 2018, 03:21:32 pm

Got an idea for an assassin type character today for 5e. Rogue with a 2 level dip into MFoVs homebrew Vermin Lord Druid. Only turns into raven swarms, goes by the name Conspiracy. Is an anarchist or meritocrat who uses their raven form and general skillset to undermine the authority of the inherited nobility while working for them as a hired killer. Enjoys using snarky bird puns.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on September 06, 2018, 03:35:08 pm

A murder most fowl doubles as a crow/raven pun btw.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 06, 2018, 04:48:02 pm

Nah, make them look like literal load-bearing pillars, but twisted in a way that's impossible to describe. They hold up reality in a way that makes sense when you look at it, and then stops making sense when you're not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 06, 2018, 04:56:52 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on September 06, 2018, 03:35:08 pm

A murder most fowl doubles as a crow/raven pun btw.

Triples as one, even.


So, Halflings can reroll critically failed saving throws/attack rolls, Divine Soul Sorcerers can add 2d4 to failed saving throws/attack rolls... How many more reroll traits can you stack onto a single character? I'm just imagining this character that launches themselves into ridiculous situations and gets by on fudging every roll thrown at them.

RE: Pillars. There are precedents in various other stories, a few mythologies have pillars of some sort that hold up the world in either metaphorical or literal fashion. Throw a bone the way of Nüwa and give a pillar the foot of a turtle. Or just check out Blood Omen's Pillars of Nosgoth. I'unno.

Could also start with some architectural keystones if you really wanna get a blatant metaphorical boner.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 06, 2018, 05:24:55 pm

Quote from: greatorder on September 06, 2018, 04:40:54 pm

Anyone got any ideas to kind of differentiate them from the bog standard artefact of doom? Presently I've settled on their appearance being that of some colour-changing, fluctuating, writhing mass (Or, rather, that's how people interpret it. It's a knot in reality, if people could really perceive it for what it was their brain would break trying to understand how the fuck such a thing could exist, leaving them either amnesic of the thing or a gibbering lunatic), but beyond that I've not got a lot.

A 4-dimensional tesseract?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/8-cell-orig.gif/240px-8-cell-orig.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 06, 2018, 05:32:30 pm

Why not make them look like fairly nondescript objects associated with each of the dead gods? Reality is composed of fundamental ideals and concepts each of which is embodied by a specific artifact that is the deepest core of the thing that the gods used as the underpinnings of the world.

Like the war god anchored reality with a wooden club, the most stripped down and basic weapon and it now serves as the physical manifestation of the very concept of war. The god of life left behind a simple plant like a fern, the god of water a small stone basin of water, that sort of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 06, 2018, 05:42:07 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 06, 2018, 05:32:30 pm

the god of water a small stone basin of water, that sort of thing.

Or just a chunk of ice, if'n you really wanna get primordial.

...just so long as they don't have to somehow lasso a particular cloud of water vapor or such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 06, 2018, 05:52:09 pm

Quote from: greatorder on September 06, 2018, 04:40:54 pm

Anyone got any ideas to kind of differentiate them from the bog standard artefact of doom? Presently I've settled on their appearance being that of some colour-changing, fluctuating, writhing mass (Or, rather, that's how people interpret it. It's a knot in reality, if people could really perceive it for what it was their brain would break trying to understand how the fuck such a thing could exist, leaving them either amnesic of the thing or a gibbering lunatic), but beyond that I've not got a lot.

A simple toothpick in a sandwich.  The sandwich is magical, bites taken out of it regrow after a while, and a bite is delightful and feeds you for the day.  Eating or otherwise damaging the sandwich causes some calamity in some far-off place in the universe seemingly at random, not that a mere mortal handling the sandwich would know.  Removing the toothpick from the sandwich causes the sandwich to fall apart.  This is bad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 06, 2018, 07:00:30 pm

Given the omniversal nature of the sandwich, I shudder to imagine the combination of flavours contained within it.

Of course, if it's from 3.5e, it could always be a Psionic Sandwich.

Spoiler: Psionic Sandwich (click to show/hide)

Race: Elan
Build: Telepath 20
Feats: Any, must have EK(Astral Seed) and skill focus (craft [basket weaving])

1. Acquire a loaf of bread (2cp)
2. Turn the bread into a sandwich (craft DC 5) (probably 2 minutes)
3. Polymorph the sandwich (preferably ham with mustard, pepperoni, salami, and jalapenos) into a fuzzy little bunny. (NPC casting 1200 gp) (1 standard action)
4. Cast astral seed (10 minutes)
5. Ritualistically slay yourself with favored method of suicide. Be sure to place your storage crystal next to the sandwich turned bunny. (Approximately 5 rounds)
6. Use mind-switch (the 6th level power) to switch with the rabbit, while in your storage crystal. (1 std action)
7. Metamorph into a troll and smash your storage crystal (now containing the mind of a sandwich). (2 standard actions)
8. Use psychic chirurgery to remove your negative level gotten from committing suicide. (10 minutes)
9. Dismiss your metamorphosis and manifest dispel psionics on yourself (to dispel the polymorph). (2 standard actions)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 06, 2018, 07:56:25 pm

My D&D group is doing its own take on West Marches now. Got a full table? Use one of your main characters. Got three or so players? B Team time. Lower-level, takes care of things that need to be done but are kind of below the mains.

I don't yet know what my main is going to be but I read some guy's character description on Reddit and knew I had to modify the idea a bit for my B Team character.

So picture this. Bald guy. Pristine white clothing. Somewhat buff. Some enemy stabs a hole in his/an ally's shirt? He rages out, slaughters the bastard, and then mends/prestidigitates everything once he calms down. I need to come up with a punny name based on "Mr. Clean". Wizard (or sorc or cleric or bard or... warlock?) 1/Barbarian X. All I need is two cantrips and then a whole bunch of anger.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on September 06, 2018, 08:02:42 pm

Sorceror would be good flavor-wise, though a warlock might be best mechanically. Heh. I've heard things scale off character level on the warlock.

Hilarious idea though, reminds me of the concept I had of a monk being strong enough to punch someone hard enough to literally impale them on their fingers and hold them in place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 06, 2018, 10:35:42 pm

Or make a Muscle Wizard (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Muscle_Wizard).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://1d4chan.org/images/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 06, 2018, 11:04:08 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on September 06, 2018, 07:56:25 pm

All I need is two cantrips and then a whole bunch of anger.

If all you need is two cantrips, consider taking the Magic Initiate feat rather than multiclassing fully.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 06, 2018, 11:50:36 pm

Man... I really want to play a muscle wizard now!

But, would any self-respecting DM actually Allow that kind of pure premium bullshit? LOL

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on September 07, 2018, 12:02:18 am

Quote from: wierd on September 06, 2018, 11:50:36 pm

Man... I really want to play a muscle wizard now!

But, would any self-respecting DM actually Allow that kind of pure premium bullshit? LOL

Hey, I've run mini campaigns that were entirely about goofy theoretical optimization silliness in between larger, more story-driven games. Some days everybody just wants to be a telekinetic reuben, you know?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 07, 2018, 01:24:47 am

I believe the difficulty is more in finding a way of making it actually workable. Strength casters aren't generally much of a thing, except for Pillars of Eternity.

I mean, there's always Bigby's, which is legitimately "I cast fist"... But that only barely benefits from being buff, which is sad.


Y'know, I kinda wonder why there isn't a barbarian analog for casters... Someone who goes into an arcane rage and lets the big blasty magic fly while hopped up on an overdose of angry... But eh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 07, 2018, 01:33:22 am

Bloodrager.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 07, 2018, 02:03:27 am

The main problem I see is that the core mechanics of spell casters, and HP Tanks, are almost totally exclusive to each other.

I could see a really demented form of magic user that relies on CON, but I am unaware of any splatbooks that would detail such a class. (It could very well already exist, I dunno)

think-- Weaponized typhoid mary. (We can call it something like "Plague Bearer" or something.)

Character PURPOSEFULLY seeks horrifically contagious diseases and or magical maladies. Uses a dice roll mechanic to "contract" the disease/malady, but not suffer any ill effects (has risk of failure, where they will either not be infected, or will be infected but suffer effects). Instead, gets to gain intrinsic mastery over the contagion. (Compare, "blue mage" from final fantasy series-- Must experience a monster attack, then afterwards can use that attack themselves.)  Uses CON to set number of active maladies/diseases they can handle without harm (equivalent of spell slot), and uses CON for resist and active infection/contagion rolls.

Otherwise, works like a rogue or other close-range attack class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 07, 2018, 03:50:53 am

Yeah, no magic class adds Con to anything other than bonus spells per day, at least from 3.x edition. There's the Tome of Battle Swordsage which uses martial maneuvers that work kinda like spells, and Insightful Strike adds your Concentration check (which is Con based) instead of your normal modifiers to the melee attack. There's also a bunch of ways to get Con to AC and Reflex/Will saves too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 07, 2018, 04:08:13 am

Not that a rage-like ability has to specifically target CON and STR, mind. Just as rogues aren't measured by their sword-and-board abilities and clerics aren't expected to use wizard spells. If you're going to make a new class of character, it's generally acceptable to make new gameplay mechanics that those characters can take part in.

And now I'm trying to figure out muscle wizard archetypes, so thanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 07, 2018, 04:18:07 am

Makes me wonder if we should make a different thread for home-grown splatbooks.  I could totally make a valid (world-lore friendly, et al) case for the plague bearer class, but they would be hard-line chaotic evil, without some significant downside being tacked on.

Eg-- this class could be intimately tied to Erythnul (or similarly associated entity), where the ability to obtain, and then weaponize diseases is a kind of "dark gift" given in exchange for service. This would put it in the same sphere as divine magic, but with an evil alignment, malign intent, etc.  (hence the need for hardline chaotic evil, OR-- have some explanation for how they manage to survive having the diseases without divine intervention)  The primary reason for the class' existence, is literally to walk undetected through densely populated areas, and spread horrible plagues.  More the sort of thing a mid-to-high-level mook of the BigBad would have as a class, but could totally have some great gameplay as a character class too, if given the right setting.


Another possible use of CON for spell casting would be a kind of "wild channeling" type caster class, where they tap raw magical energy and direct it through their bodies, lightning rod style. (thus, they need the CON score to avoid being "severely harmed" (ahem) by the process) Not sure how to define a mechanic for that though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 07, 2018, 04:27:16 am

Don't think it'd need a separate thread unless you're really serious about genning a custom class, but as a simple brainstorming exercise, I'd suggest perhaps a method of disease transferal through magic?

For example, the class/prestige gets access to a Spell-Like Ability to cast Inflict Light Wounds or higher level variants, usable a number of times per day equal to the number of active diseases the character is currently carrying. As part of the saving throw to resist the spell, if the target fails their save, they immediately contract one of the player's diseases.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 07, 2018, 04:30:24 am

Well, aside from making a whole new spell set, you could just give them the option to "overcharge" a spell to enhance its effect (probably just keep it to simple stuff like damage/healing spells only), requiring a Con saving throw. Failing the throw means taking damage, and potentially other fun stuff a la the wild surge table. Kinda similar to a few other already-existing kit bonuses, but it could be tweaked.


Hmm... Should a muscle wizard focus on hitting things with their own hands, or are fist-like magical spells permitted? I mean, in the old days you could do just fine with limited spell slots by just getting enough to buff yourself with Bull's Strength and its ilk... But now those spells basically just provide advantage for ability checks, which doesn't include punching. Or many spells, for that matter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 07, 2018, 04:38:18 am

Are you familiar with the 3.5 D&D class Cancer Mage? It's immune to the negative effects of diseases, has a bit of sneak attack, a sentient tumour familiar, poison touch and a bunch of other stuff. It's pinnacle was turning into a disease that could infect one person and basically served as a body hopping kind of power.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 07, 2018, 04:48:30 am

Yeah, the Cancer Mage is the one that abuses those mechanics to gain absurd amounts of Strength via Festering Anger adding +2 per day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 07, 2018, 07:33:27 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 07, 2018, 04:27:16 am

Don't think it'd need a separate thread unless you're really serious about genning a custom class, but as a simple brainstorming exercise, I'd suggest perhaps a method of disease transferal through magic?

For example, the class/prestige gets access to a Spell-Like Ability to cast Inflict Light Wounds or higher level variants, usable a number of times per day equal to the number of active diseases the character is currently carrying. As part of the saving throw to resist the spell, if the target fails their save, they immediately contract one of the player's diseases.

The case here would indeed be a custom class, which is why I wondered about if we should make a thread for our own home-grown splats.  The idea I had for the plague bearer is that it treats the disease list like a spell list, with the more egregious and horribad ones being equivalent to high level spells, (thinking more sorc template on this) where there are class abilities used to "cast".  things like "foetid bile", where they can perform an "Exorcist Puke" as a higher level means of transmission, but also have more subtle, touch-based contagion mechanic "Dirty hands", etc. 

At lower levels, they only have the touch based mechanics, and gain access to better and better means of delivering diseases on target or area-effect as they gain levels in the class.

This way they are limited by what diseases they can use, and how they can use them, based on their CON score and their character level.  Bonus-- since they have to be infected to be able to use/spread infection, they would have great difficulty with healing services, which would politely try to "Cure" them. LOL

Resisting being cured would be an interesting mechanic in and of itself I think.

(Imagines epic battle between Divine caster/monk, and plague bearer, where one is trying to cure/defeat, and the other is trying to infect/defeat, touching all over each other, shooting rays of energy, and with geysers of horrible bodily fluids getting spread everywhere.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 07, 2018, 07:41:54 am

Back in 4th ed our group had a sorcerer that keyed his spells off of strength.

We called him the "flex mage", whose somatic components were just him striking poses and flexing his muscles really hard.

Like someone does this and a lighting bolt shoots out of his hand

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/man-no-shirt-flex-arm-out-look-up-flexing-his-arms-body-46115895.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 07, 2018, 08:50:04 am

Isn't muscle wizard just monk?  I CAST KI STRIKE

3.5 does have the Rage Mage prestige class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=7) in Complete Warrior, for multiclass barbarian/spellcasters.  It's basically what it sounds like, you get to cast spells while in a rage.  Of course, that's oversimplifying.

Cons (no pun intended):  Half spell progression, requires 4BAB and rage (or frenzy, gwaHAHAHA).  Obviously doesn't match the strengths of a pure barbarian or pure spellcaster.

Pros:
Uses character level for most spells in a rage, mitigating the half spell progression.
Eventually gets a +2/+4 bonus to save DC on top of that
-10% to arcane spell failure chance at 2nd level.  This gives a mithral chain shirt no ASF.
The capstone is pretty funny

The loss of high level spells basically trumps everything, but I still think it sounds fun for a hybrid character.  The save DCs are a bit higher than a pure spellcaster, which is nice, and it'll be easier to land spells due to 2/3 BAB.
Spells per day will suffer, but I think wands/scrolls would work fine in the spell rage.  Simply attacking with a weapon is also an option.

GiantITP hates it of course, offering much better "gishes" which involve 5 different classes and obscure books :P  They assume it'd be barbarian/sorcerer, or "mystic ranger" for some cheese I don't get.  It's a shame that using cleric would waste almost all the benefits, heh.

Tempted to plan up an alienist combo just for the "raving lunatic" lulz.

Quote from: Jimmy on September 07, 2018, 03:50:53 am

Yeah, no magic class adds Con to anything other than bonus spells per day, at least from 3.x edition. There's the Tome of Battle Swordsage which uses martial maneuvers that work kinda like spells, and Insightful Strike adds your Concentration check (which is Con based) instead of your normal modifiers to the melee attack. There's also a bunch of ways to get Con to AC and Reflex/Will saves too.

The CON replacements on the great X To Y thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) are pretty limited or defense-oriented for all classes.  Probably because it's such a vital stat for any character's survivability.  Even "single attribute dependent" classes like most spellcasters need CON, arguably more than DEX.  Making it a spellcasting stat would be... hard to balance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 07, 2018, 09:05:44 am

Heh, Rage Mage is one of my fav prestige classes simply for its name alone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 07, 2018, 09:16:32 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on September 07, 2018, 07:41:54 am

Back in 4th ed our group had a sorcerer that keyed his spells off of strength.

We called him the "flex mage", whose somatic components were just him striking poses and flexing his muscles really hard.

Like someone does this and a lighting bolt shoots out of his hand

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/man-no-shirt-flex-arm-out-look-up-flexing-his-arms-body-46115895.jpg)

I'm really upset that picture wasn't a gif of that guy from full metal alchemist

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 07, 2018, 09:33:53 am

So... Bugbear, Primeval Guardian 3 / Mystic (any flavor) X. Use a reach weapon, take the Giant Growth psionic discipline. While focused and using the Guardian Soul ability, you'll have a melee reach of 25'. You can activate the first branch of the discipline for 2 PP to get another 5' on top of that, for 30' total in limited bursts.

If you decide to build more mystic levels, 9th level will let you use the second branch of the discipline and get a bigger boost of 10', in case you wanted to pick someone's nose from 35' away.


Heh, I remember Alienist was incredibly broken in Incursion... In multiple ways. Depending on version/the game's whimsy, attempting to level as an Alienist would either crash the game or just softlock you. If you were on a version where they worked, you'd be able to spew out the ludicrously overpowered pseudonatural summons because the feat wasn't properly draining persistent mana, so it would all regen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: deathpunch578 on September 07, 2018, 01:25:36 pm

Haven't heard of the cancer mage before now (then again I am the guy that didn't know that healing spells could harm the un-dead). what book is it from?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 07, 2018, 02:20:27 pm

Book of Vile Darkness. Which also has the most pointless alternate human ever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: deathpunch578 on September 07, 2018, 02:25:47 pm

thank you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 07, 2018, 02:28:15 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 07, 2018, 02:20:27 pm

Book of Vile Darkness. Which also has the most pointless alternate human ever.

Can't be worse than Book of Exalted Deed's "Poisons but totally not really poisons"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 07, 2018, 02:55:37 pm

I would say they are worse than the not-poison poisons.

The Vashar as I think they were called are fluffed as originating from the first version of humanity made by the gods. The first man was a psychopath and tried to kill the gods, who then tried to destroy him but he was saved by a demon lord and sired children with a succubus giving rise to the Vashar. All Vashar are EVIIIIL and they are all born from rape, because apparently sociopaths never have consensual sex. They murder, steal and enslave constantly and basically impusively do evil stuff without much cause 24/7. Their main goal as a society is to kill the gods.

Mechanically they're identical to normal 3.5 humans, except instead of a bonus feat that can be taken from any feat in the game they meet the prerequisites for, Vashar can only take a bonus Vile Feat they meet the prerequisites for. They get the same exact thing normal humans do, but worse since normal humans can also take Vile Feats with their racial feat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 07, 2018, 04:27:42 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 07, 2018, 02:55:37 pm

I would say they are worse than the not-poison poisons.

The Vashar as I think they were called are fluffed as originating from the first version of humanity made by the gods. The first man was a psychopath and tried to kill the gods, who then tried to destroy him but he was saved by a demon lord and sired children with a succubus giving rise to the Vashar. All Vashar are EVIIIIL and they are all born from rape, because apparently sociopaths never have consensual sex. They murder, steal and enslave constantly and basically impusively do evil stuff without much cause 24/7. Their main goal as a society is to kill the gods.

Mechanically they're identical to normal 3.5 humans, except instead of a bonus feat that can be taken from any feat in the game they meet the prerequisites for, Vashar can only take a bonus Vile Feat they meet the prerequisites for. They get the same exact thing normal humans do, but worse since normal humans can also take Vile Feats with their racial feat.

Ah yes, for when you want to have Chaotic Stupid as not only an alignment, but as a race as well!


I'm looking at aging halfling barbarians now, if for no other reason than to charge madly into battle and, when inevitably killed, utter: "Old hobbits die hard"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 07, 2018, 04:31:28 pm

Quote from: Kagus on September 07, 2018, 09:33:53 am

So... Bugbear, Primeval Guardian 3 / Mystic (any flavor) X. Use a reach weapon, take the Giant Growth psionic discipline. While focused and using the Guardian Soul ability, you'll have a melee reach of 25'. You can activate the first branch of the discipline for 2 PP to get another 5' on top of that, for 30' total in limited bursts.

If you decide to build more mystic levels, 9th level will let you use the second branch of the discipline and get a bigger boost of 10', in case you wanted to pick someone's nose from 35' away.

At mystic level 11 you can use Ogre Form and Giant Form at the same time, for 40 reach.
Though you can't pick their nose like that, since you included a reach weapon, unless your nose-picking is done through a halberd.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 07, 2018, 06:04:09 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on September 07, 2018, 02:28:15 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 07, 2018, 02:20:27 pm

Book of Vile Darkness. Which also has the most pointless alternate human ever.

Can't be worse than Book of Exalted Deed's "Poisons but totally not really poisons"

In our very first campaign, where almost every enemy (and most NPCs) were undead due to lich apocalypse, they were extremely handy. Since undead are usually immune, they're basically the intended target.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 07, 2018, 06:24:34 pm

Of course the dumbest thing about Ravages (the not-poisons) is that the BoEDs says poison use is evil because it causes uneccessary suffering and is therefore an act of cruelty that goes beyond reasonable measures, then goes on to say ravages are perfectly fine because they only work on evil people even though they are otherwise identical to poison.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 07, 2018, 06:43:08 pm

While we're comparing BoED/BoVD shenanigans, don't forget that VD contains a spell that's basically a year-long Mind Rape. ED contains a spell that's basically a year-long Mind Rape as well, but it's explicitly a Good spell to cast.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 07, 2018, 07:16:56 pm

Yeah, it's okay because it's forcing the person to be good, see?  Totally different.
Speaking of autonomy, the Vow of Chastity benefits end if the character has sex.  If the sex was involuntary, they can be forgiven with Atonement.  The BoVD doesn't have a monopoly on "what is happening in their campaigns"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on September 07, 2018, 07:29:54 pm

I can kinda see the evil spells that does the same as the good spell but one is evil and one is good making sense in a universe of arbitrary but real good and evil, where evil exists as an ends to itself in the form of demons, evil gods, sometimes negative energy, etc. I can totally see certain spells being arbitrarily evil, even though they do what some non evil spells do (and same for spells being arbitrarily good) if the have an evil source of power or cause arbitrary evil to now exists (such as making undead or summoning demons.) and that seems to be the basic assumption that D&D spells are mostly (although I think maybe not always) built upon, and if you're playing a setting where that's not the case or certain arbitrary evil things don't count as arbitrarily evil (like undead) you need to change the spells to not be evil/good.

That said  poison use being evil according to the ravages is super dumb, afaik the section on ravages is the only, or at least a very rare instance of, poison being called evil in D&D. Certainly it's not considered evil in the core books, it's evil adjacent kinda, since evil characters are often able to use it better, and paladins can't use it, but evil characters doing something that paladins won't doesn't make that thing itself evil. It's weird too, because ravages totally fit a useful niche in supernatural poisons that effect (evil) creatures that are normally immune to poisons. They'd be perfectly fine being just that, but for some reason the book had to had them stand in opposition to something that exists and make the other thing evil, because it's the BoED right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 07, 2018, 07:33:41 pm

Poisons were explicitly evil in 1st ed, and most classes were basically banned from use.  Probably to balance the fact that all poison back then was "save or die".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2018, 10:29:42 am

Hmm... So, talking grapplers luchadores, what do you prefer? A winged tiefling who can (slowly) lift people up for the ultimate slam and potentially grab the barbed skin feat for constant, guaranteed damage...

Or the bugbear brawler with ludicrous lift/drag weight capacity, higher strength and a 10' grappling range to stealthily piledrive enemies via sneaky+surprise attack?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 08, 2018, 10:39:20 am

Quote from: Kagus on September 08, 2018, 10:29:42 am

Hmm... So, talking grapplers luchadores, what do you prefer? A winged tiefling who can (slowly) lift people up for the ultimate slam and potentially grab the barbed skin feat for constant, guaranteed damage...

Or the bugbear brawler with ludicrous lift/drag weight capacity, higher strength and a 10' grappling range to stealthily piledrive enemies via sneaky+surprise attack?

Fluff rouge sneak attack as a surprise german suplex

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2018, 12:16:41 pm

Okay, so apparently the bugbear's long reach thing specifically only applies to when making a melee attack while using the attack action on your turn... Meaning that attacks of opportunity and various defensive abilities tied to weapon reach don't get to use the extra 5'.

While "melee attack using attack action" does still include things like grappling attempts, depending on how the time restriction gets interpreted the grapple will be cancelled immediately upon losing the extra reach either at the end of your turn, or instantly after making the attack.


So, yeah, that changes things up a fair bit. Looks like goliaths get to keep the heavyweight title spot, but there's still the potential for a tiefling to accomplish a few things under the right circumstances. The build/strength disparity is quite noticeable, though, especially when dealing with flight...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 08, 2018, 12:32:17 pm

There is a variant tiefling with +1 Str instead of +1 Int. Zariel Tieflings from page 23 of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes are +2 Cha/+1 Str and get different spells from normal tieflings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 08, 2018, 12:52:35 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 08, 2018, 12:32:17 pm

There is a variant tiefling with +1 Str instead of +1 Int. Zariel Tieflings from page 23 of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes are +2 Cha/+1 Str and get different spells from normal tieflings.

I thought variant tieflings could only get the Feral attribute replacement, which is +2 Dex +1 Int? I mean, that's still generally better for someone who gets stuck in a lot, but it's no Str increase.

Still though, Feral + Wings still seems like the best pick for a non-caster tiefling grapplers, as far as overall utility is concerned... Considering Zariel's spells are kinda lackluster if you're planning on doubling down on grappling, since the smites require a weapon.


Even so, +1 strength doesn't quite match +2 strength and racial powerful build. They're definitely fighting in different weight classes, but tieflings can potentially get access to Barbed Hide if you're dipping into UA. Also leveraging the +2 Cha towards a spellcasting grappler if that's more your style.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 08, 2018, 01:07:52 pm

Mordenkainen's added more tiefling subraces, one for each arch devil that isn't Asmodeus. They give a different +1 stat and have different racial spells. In theory you can still give them wings because they still have spells to trade away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 08, 2018, 01:34:21 pm

Is Asmodeus the "default" I guess?  Or do his devils avoid anything so unseemly?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 08, 2018, 01:54:29 pm

5e uses Forgotten Realms as the default setting in some ways, and 5e FR Asmodeus used a big ritual to make all tieflings retroactively 'his' which is why they all look so similar. Mordenkainen's treats Asmodean tieflings as the PHB ones while all the other devils get their own ones.

Demon Lords haven't got any yet and neither do the Yugoloths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 08, 2018, 02:10:24 pm

I hate that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 08, 2018, 07:03:52 pm

Look, the DnD world does not have Tinder or Craig's List Personals ok?

How do you expect a randy demon lord, in his unholy, enormous visage-- to successfully hook up with human or elven women?  It sure as shit isnt a video dating service. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 08, 2018, 07:17:25 pm

Eh, 5e also moved away from tieflings and aasimar being descended biologically from trysts with fiends and celestials to a more dark ancestral pact/divine chosen one type of deal anyway. Tieflings are more likely to be the children of cultists than of actual outsiders and aasimar are just chosen babies invested with god powers and an angelic guide to be their Jiminy Cricket.

I preferred the outsider banging myself, felt more mythical to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Draignean on September 08, 2018, 07:23:15 pm

Quote from: wierd on September 08, 2018, 07:03:52 pm

Look, the DnD world does not have Tinder or Craig's List Personals ok?

How do you expect a randy demon lord, in his unholy, enormous visage-- to successfully hook up with human or elven women?  It sure as shit isnt a video dating service. :P

The solution is, as always, Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).

Extremely *hawt* lord looking for casual encounter. Come to Desolation's Parallax at mid-winter when the third moon is gibbous to see my enormous castle.

There, a 25 word sending that's sure to get the attention of all the ladies. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 08, 2018, 07:28:42 pm

Quote from: Draignean on September 08, 2018, 07:23:15 pm

Quote from: wierd on September 08, 2018, 07:03:52 pm

Look, the DnD world does not have Tinder or Craig's List Personals ok?

How do you expect a randy demon lord, in his unholy, enormous visage-- to successfully hook up with human or elven women?  It sure as shit isnt a video dating service. :P

The solution is, as always, Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).

Extremely *hawt* lord looking for casual encounter. Come to Desolation's Parallax at mid-winter when the third moon is gibbous to see my enormous castle.

There, a 25 word sending that's sure to get the attention of all the ladies.

In other news-- the futures market for short copper wires has exploded, and migraine pills tailored for demon lords are the new alchemical wonder of the century, as hundreds of thousands of women are allowed to immediately respond to the mass-sendings sent by desperate demonic singles, and the materials required for the mass sending cause market failures across multiple planes of existence. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 08, 2018, 07:34:18 pm

So the temporary end of the A Side campaign concluded with us accidentally/intentionally (depending on party member) flooding the ancestral home of the dwarfs by Shattering an already damaged tunnel underneath a river, because we were merking the dragon we talked our way out of fighting months ago IRL. And got a bunch of young paladins killed in the process. I may have considered PvPing the perpetrator of this wholly unnecessary outcome in what was about to be a great triumph.

So that's it for A Side for now. B Side, which is supposed to be the loose cannon campaign, continues from its oneshot roots in two weeks...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 08, 2018, 07:48:04 pm

It's amazing how close our party came to losing some members. Three party members down, three nat ones on the first don't die check for each of them. That's one in... 8000?

Absurd. At least I got a level out of it. Rogue/Druid, here I come!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 08, 2018, 09:10:37 pm

We finally finished another Taller Luke and Boba Fett Is Dumb tangent, and finally got back to the important business of the night:  Gutting giant porg plushies to make costumes for us and Dagon's appointed sacrifice.

A couple of vampires who are technically our allies insisted on coming with the sacrifice (Alphy).  Unfortunately the other two characters (who are migo puppets) decided to jump back to Yoggoth for advice, their bodies collapsing on the floor.  The vampires found this... suspicious. 

They tied us up (in the porg costumes) and are demanding proof that we aren't possessed by demons.  I didn't collapse, but they tied me up anyway because I rolled really bad at lying (I don't see anything wrong with their auras!  I don't see ANYthing at ALL!  ...Wrong with their auras!)

We rolled initiative to bust out, I won and carved my way out of the plushie with my knife.  But with no real reason to attack, I just argued for peace (and rolled another 0 lol).

Fortunately one of the vampires went next and revealed that he had holy water, and offered to pour some on us.
Crisis averted!

Anyway looks like we're back on track to trick bring Alphy through the closet-portal to Yuggoth Narnia, where he'll be safe from the cultists.
We're being a little cagey about the plan, basically claiming we're just hiding him in the cabin.  But in our defense, it's a better hiding spot than being an *exhibit* at the carnival-

oh wow while I was distracted they had Alphy read the Red Box for giggles.  good job guys, I think the kid's down to 2 morality now.  And 4 weapon skill with knife specialty, thanks to some former hijinks.

Edit:  Oh we also sang several lines of Fireflies by Owl City because the lyrics (https://www.google.com/search?q=fireflies+lyrics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1) are kinda great if you're thinking of Migos the whole time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 09, 2018, 03:59:02 am

Pathfinder 2 Playtest!

So, our group is working through the scenarios, and we get to the part of the playtest that calls for an all-healer group, with a minimum of 2 clerics in the party plus all other players bringing some form of healing class (alchemist, bard, druid etc.) as well.

I bring a Barbarian/Cleric multiclass devoted to the god of war and weapons.

One of the other players brings a chaotic evil cleric devoted to the destruction of all things.

Together, we completely derail the plot within the first ten minutes. After half an hour, the GM is literally sitting, head in hands, desperately trying to salvage the story.

Besides us, we have an alchemist and a chaotic good cleric of the god of alcohol. Our mission is to fetch an NPC scholar since the magical McGuffin is counting down to doomsday and he's got info on the evil cult that's behind it. Obviously the playtest assumes that we're gonna go in and protect the NPC from the evilwrongbad waves of enemies that will attack this isolated mansion he's living in out in the boondocks.

Instead, we get to the place, kick down the door in the middle of the night and start smashing stuff and intimidating the hired help until they fetch the doc. The evil cleric and I nearly shanghai the NPC and cart him off in ropes until the GM puts their foot down and flat out vetos our plan. So instead, we set the attic on fire (destroying one encounter before it's even had a chance to start) and steamroll through the next one.

Long story short, never let players bring chaotic evil to the table if you have a story anything close to being on the rails. Not unless you enjoy watching trainwrecks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 09, 2018, 04:03:02 am

Or, plan accordingly for "Players decide to ignore/circumvent the plot" that chaotic evil brings to the table, and make it  REALLY worth their while to stick to the script. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on September 09, 2018, 10:11:03 pm

Life Domain's Channel Divinity only works if folks are below half health. I'm not too familiar with it, but there's also a homebrew class called the Blood Hunter that has an abilities that cost you HP to use.

There's also some monsters who have attacks become more powerful the lower on health they are.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 10, 2018, 06:15:50 am

Quote from: greatorder on September 09, 2018, 08:01:46 pm

Been playing Darkest Dungeon lately, and it got me thinking: With present 5e rules, is there anything akin to the Flagellant? Someone that becomes more powerful the less health they have, either through exploiting some feats, class features, or anything of that nature?

I don't think so, but my 5th ed knowledge is a bit lacking.

I do know there was a spell or the like in Book of Vile Darkness called Masochism that gave bonuses for taking damage.  Maybe you could port it over.  Incidentally there's also a Sadism spell as well.

EDIT:http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/masochism--164/index.html (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/masochism--164/index.html)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 10, 2018, 09:10:49 am

Playing a Leper-based Paladin would be fun. I guess the disease have to be Magical Leprosy or a Super Curse or something though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2018, 11:15:17 am

Do cantrips count as spells for stuff like "when you cast a spell that does X, apply Y"? Like for a celestial warlock that can add their CHA mod to radiant or fire damage rolls when casting a spell, could they apply that when tossing cantrip fire bolts?


Also, anyone looked at the Lore Mastery magic tradition for wizards in Unearthed Arcana? Seems a wee bit broken at first glance, honestly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on September 10, 2018, 11:28:06 am

Cantrips do count as spells, so a celestrial warlock would add their CHA mod to damage of a fire cantrip. However a lot of abilities like that specify they work with spells cast from spell slots, which cantrips aren't, so they don't work for that. An example would be the Spell Secrets from the Lore Mastery magic tradition doesn't work with cantrips.

Loremaster does look pretty overpowered yeah. Great blasting utility and strength, ability to cast any spell from any list. Seems stronk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 10, 2018, 11:40:13 am

Quote from: Kagus on September 10, 2018, 11:15:17 am

Also, anyone looked at the Lore Mastery magic tradition for wizards in Unearthed Arcana? Seems a wee bit broken at first glance, honestly.

Doesn't look too broken to me. You're still using slots (possibly at a much quicker rate, if you're fond of augmenting every single spell with Alchemical Casting; Yay +2 DC...) and paying material costs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2018, 02:18:10 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on September 10, 2018, 11:40:13 am

Quote from: Kagus on September 10, 2018, 11:15:17 am

Also, anyone looked at the Lore Mastery magic tradition for wizards in Unearthed Arcana? Seems a wee bit broken at first glance, honestly.

Doesn't look too broken to me. You're still using slots (possibly at a much quicker rate, if you're fond of augmenting every single spell with Alchemical Casting; Yay +2 DC...) and paying material costs.

You also get double proficiency on four different skills, can use INT to roll initiative (!), can freely change the damage type of any spell to make it particularly effective against whatever foe you're up against, can change the type of saving throw required for a spell (!!), trade out a 1st-level slot for a whole 2d10 extra force damage against every target with no save, turn yourself into a goddamn magical catapult by swapping a 2nd-level slot to make a 30' range spell have a range of one mile instead, and of course the ridiculous ability to just cast a spell from any spell list and treat it as a wizard spell (!!!).

Wanna cast Abi-Dalzim's but it deals cold damage instead of necrotic? Go for it! Wanna cast magic missile, except now it deals (1d4+1)+2d10 damage to every target for the price of two 1st-level slots? By all means! Cast Resurrection even though you're a wizard? Go on, do it... You're worth it!

Or combine everything together and cast Call Lightning like a druid, but it's bolts of spooky acid raining from the sky with 3d10 acid damage on a failed will save (because why the fuck not?) and 2d10 force damage with no save to everyone in the area.

And you're doing this all before the enemy has moved, because you're a goddamn wizard who can roll initiative off of their brainpower.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 10, 2018, 02:26:15 pm

But for me it was just Tuesday 3.5 edition!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 10, 2018, 03:16:05 pm

Oh no, int to initiative. Like the war wizard. Oh no, one of your specialty advancements is basically the Elemental Adept feat (which, let's be honest, is probably what a non-UA lore wizard would be getting). Oh no, you get an extra 2d10 force damage. Like a moderately-optimized Warlock. Except you can only do it four times per day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 10, 2018, 03:36:38 pm

Where is this War Wizard?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 10, 2018, 03:46:01 pm

Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on September 10, 2018, 04:01:15 pm

Int to init is really good, but it's not busted good. Blasting better then an envoker from a MILE!! away with literally any spell in the game without the need to prepare it is what's brokenly good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 10, 2018, 04:14:14 pm

Elemental Adaptation can ignore resistance, but not immunity. It also can't capitalize on vulnerability, and is exclusive to the one damage type selected when taking the feat (unless you take it multiple times, in which case... Well...). Not sure where you're getting the 2d10 force damage from warlock, unless you just mean eldritch blast... But the thing is, the 2d10 extra damage for burning a spell slot is applied automatically, without saving throw or attack roll, to every target within the scope of the spell. Which, all depending, can really add up. Sure, you can spend multiple turns to achieve the same effect for cheaper, but sometimes you really need things to die right now. Really though, it's more just to consider the amount of damage you'd normally be able to put out with a 1st-level slot by casting a 1st-level spell on its own turn, then compare that to simply applying 2d10 damage to another spell you're casting anyways on the same turn.

Also spell slots can be brought back via Arcane Recovery if you wanna use it for that, so it's not strictly 4 times a day, but I get ya.


And if your DM can be argued with, you can also kill the entire world by using a 2nd-level spell slot to modify Cone of Cold so that it's a mile-long cone... Which, by the time it hits the end, would have a width of slightly less than two miles. If you're into that sort of thing.


So, yes, several of the aspects can be either replicated or outdone by something else.  However, it does all of these things within the scope of one class kit, which lends it a fair amount of versatility. Not only can you bypass damage resistances/immunities and exploit vulnerabilities, you can also change saving throws to something else (which can be a very big deal all depending on the situation, while only 'costing' one opportunity per short rest) to suit the target's weakness. And you get double proficiency on four skills, and you gain limited access to every spell list.

It's a lot of flexibility and a ridiculous amount of burst/artillery (even if it is expensive) all tied up with a neat little bow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 10, 2018, 11:57:10 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on September 10, 2018, 03:46:01 pm

Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

Since I haven't got access to that, is it the same as in this Unearthed Arcana (http://this Unearthed Arcana)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on September 11, 2018, 01:15:14 am

Your link doesn't work, but I assume you were going for https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf ?

Xanathar version has a different Power Surge (weaker but potentially usable more often) and Deflecting Shroud (longer range, fixed number of targets); the other abilities are unchanged.

The version at http://dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard#War_Magic matches Xanathar's.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 11, 2018, 02:47:40 am

Yeah, that was the one. Thanks for the link too!

Seems a bit less useful than the base schools, but it meshes very well thematically with my idea for a dwarf battlemage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 11, 2018, 10:45:17 am

Ended up looking at warlock a bit more, specifically ways of fiddling with Pact of the Blade to make it fun/interesting.

While it does let you do silly things like make your very own javelin of returning, I kinda feel like thrown weapons probably aren't gonna scale that well, seeing as you need to burn the bonus action to re-form the thing every time, plus range constraints. Even so, RAW, there's at least one Smite spell that should be able to work when hurled at someone, which is pretty funny when combined with the other warlock pact weapon invocation stuff.

Then I thought about how the wording on Polearm Master is a bit funky and should, depending on DM fiat, allow you to pull off a double attack while holding it in one hand (another bonus action usage, but at least it's just for making the attack itself). Combined with smites, the various bonuses from Hexblade, stuff like Lifedrinker invocation and whatever other funsies you can come up with, I just imagine this Darth Maul asshole twirling a double lightsaber around and slapping people into silliness. Take a level of some fighting class to get the duelist fighting style and slap an extra +2 onto damage rolls.

Shit, there's even an invocation that lets you cast Jump at will, no slots or materials spent. Sith bouncy house party.


Sure, your basic blastylock or celestial tiefling firelock might be more damaging/versatile/useful... But that's just media bias.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 11, 2018, 10:53:43 am

Blade pact also makes for good archers if you take the invocation that allows bows and then add on eldritch smite. Plink a flying enemy and knock it prone at the cost of a spell slot and watch it plummet out of the sky.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 16, 2018, 12:57:38 am

Godsdamn I love drunk Devil's Dice.
Rules:  Roll down the line from STR to CHA (1d20 for lulz).  With each roll, choose to keep or take the GM's roll.

STR:18
DEX: 4
CON: 1
INT: 9
WIS: 20
CHA: 13

Nice rolls, but what to save and throw away (http://marathon.bungie.org/story/hangbrainchip.html)?  I made my choice with each roll down the line.  What would you do?  Do you know?

Spoiler: Rerolls (click to show/hide)

DEX from 4 to 15
CON from 1 to 18
INT from 9 to 20
CHA from 13 to 16

"Take a chance!" shouted my friends~
they were not nearly as lucky, ahehe

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 16, 2018, 01:25:45 am

Uh, reroll anything 10 or lower. On average, rerolling something below 11 will increase your result and rerolling anything above 10 will decrease it.
"Risking it" doesn't really make sense here. I mean, you want big numbers so you should do what makes your numbers be bigger.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 16, 2018, 01:37:11 am

That's just maximizing a sum total of all stats.  It's more complicated than that, especially since it's done one-by-one down the line.

Like if you failed to get any good physical stats, it makes sense to take risks on the mental stats in hopes of getting a decent spellcasting stat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 16, 2018, 03:50:44 am

I mean, with CON 1, there's nowhere to go but up...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 16, 2018, 03:51:33 am

I've never tried playing a Con 1 character before, it sounds pretty agonizing really.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 16, 2018, 04:48:29 am

Luckily it would be over rather quickly.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 16, 2018, 06:22:41 am

Your an earth genasi. Unfortunately, your quirk was being made out of porcelain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 16, 2018, 07:05:04 am

Quote from: scriver on September 16, 2018, 06:22:41 am

Your an earth genasi. Unfortunately, your quirk was being made out of porcelain.

Qin Shi Huang would like to have a word with you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on September 16, 2018, 09:54:17 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 16, 2018, 04:48:29 am

Luckily it would be over rather quickly.  :P

Not if you built the entirety of your character around NEVER receiving damage ever. No other abilities considered, just, "I must not be touched!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on September 17, 2018, 10:23:01 am

Not to interrupt the discussions on DnD character builds, but does anyone ever feel really discouraged as a GM because you're bad at encounter balance, leading you to fudging rolls all over the place?  And then you feel like you've effectively removed all threat, and as a consequence, half of the point of playing?

I kind of feel like I learned to fudge results as a bad habit when I was a much younger GM and GMed for a single player: my younger brother.  If I killed off his character, the game ended, so... I usually went very loosey goosey with the rules when that looked like it might ever happen, and frequently soft balled encounters.  When I overshot, something would happen magically that gave him an edge to win.  It helped that we used to play in the D6 system, which arguably made it way easier to fudge results than D20.  With D6 you're using lots of dice and the necessary mental arithmetic and gymnastics gave me a chance to cook the books, so to speak, much more simply than I could with a single d20 roll.  Not to mention the GM section of the old D6 Star Wars RPG told me that fudging the numbers was okay sometimes if I needed to do it.

Trouble is, I keep doing it.

To make a very long story only sort of long, I'm running a D6 game for a group of friends online (play-by-post), and I'm doing the same stuff.  The players have largely walked all over encounters so far, which was somewhat deliberate since I was trying to emulate a heroic 90s Saturday morning cartoon, but we're at the finale and I wanted to give the players an encounter with some bite to it for a change.  I statted up a squad of robots for them to fight and up came the robots' first turn.  The robots were very tough, skilled and had powerful weapons.

So I started rolling dice, and the numbers terrified me.  Following my somewhat broken house rules for rapid fire weapons, the robots scored many extra hits with their already powerful weapons.  One NPC tagging along with the party was thoroughly killed, and the other NPC was only very killed.  One PC was looking at a severe wound, although death was unlikely.

I stared at my typed up post for minutes while I tried to decide what to do.  None of the PCs were dead, but I was very skeptical of their ability to win at that point.  I know the players are resourceful, but this was the kind of encounter where escape was almost impossible (they were in a sealed room).

Then the itch flared up, and I started reconsidering things.  I'd never shown these robots before, so I could change the stats without the players knowing!  I dialed back the damage a bit on their weapons, but the results barely changed.  Both NPCs were still dead.  I tried changing the weapons from being rapid fire high damage weapons to single shot very high damage weapons, and the results marginally improved.  Only one NPC was dead now, but the PC was probably going to die from his hit.

Finally, I realized that I could have the robots go for nonlethal attacks, since that was kind of justified, and the numbers suddenly looked much better.  The two NPCs were now alive but badly injured, and the PC that was shot at was now missed by the robots.

Though it filled me with great shame, I hit the post button with those results, and spent the next 30 minutes pondering my decisions as I tried to fall asleep.

Bad encounter design is always a problem, I guess, but I felt bad about it because I've been very careful to avoid Quantum Ogres in this game.  But in the end, it's kind of the same problem, only presented a different way.  If I don't let the PCs fail, what's the point of even rolling the dice?  It doesn't help that one of the other players, a veteran GM, is very deliberately open about his dice rolls when GMing to prevent exactly this kind of behavior.  I want to be like that, but have so far failed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 17, 2018, 10:45:49 am

Well. I say let some things be horrifyingly deadly, but let them be things that your players walk into. Death should be the result of their choices (including deciding to do nothing), and not the result of the GM dropping them into a room full of unbeatably high-statted things.
And then, when it's time, don't be afraid to kill the characters. It's what they're there for, after all. Dying is an acceptable ending, too.

Of course, it's a big advantage of play-by-post that you can change whatever you want before hitting post. If it's evident that the stats that you've come up with are unreasonable, go ahead and change them. It's just preferable that you do so before rolling. To me, rolling the dice is signing a contract that you'll accept whatever the result is, even or you don't like it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on September 17, 2018, 10:57:30 am

The real trick is the illusion of threat. Fudge your dice lightly while they're playing smart. Maybe make every third crit not-a-crit (I wish my DM would do this he literally rolls at least one 20 every combat turn, if not more. They're called his PK dice for a reason.) and garnish damage.

If they start getting bold, let the dice do the speaking. Let (don't make!) one of them die, then they'll go "oh shi-" and realize you're not actually pulling punches. So they think. And always fail forward. They need to get through a door? Cool, let them get through is disastrous consequences if they forgot the key or the macguffin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on September 17, 2018, 12:19:35 pm

Gentlefish pretty much has the right idea here, you, as the DM, are there to make sure the game is enjoyable for everyone.  That means helping the players out sometimes, and breaking their hearts others, it's a balancing act between too forgiving and too harsh.

This changes between groups however, some groups are completely down with the 'hurt me plenty' mindset.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on September 17, 2018, 12:33:16 pm

I probably really should have just stuck with the results this time, since they really were kind of asking for trouble in this case, and it was intended to be the finale of sorts.  Especially since it was just NPCs that were killed.

I kind of backed myself into a corner there though, by soft balling everything up to that point.  I didn't want it to be jarring with a sudden increase in deadliness, especially given the tone I was trying to stick to, but then if I want to fix my behavior I have to start somewhere.

Funny aside about crits: we actually had to house rule that already.  The D6 system uses dice pools and has this notion of the Wild Die.  One die out of every dice pool, whether that's a skill roll, damage, or whatever, is the Wild Die.  If it comes up a 6 you can reroll it until you stop getting 6s.  If it's a 1, the GM is supposed to make something bad happen.  It can be a minor complication, like a gun's magazine running dry, you can subtract it and the highest die rolled, or you can choose to have nothing happen.  These 1s came up so often (1/6th of the time, of course) that we agreed for me to adjust the dice roller to have to confirm them on an additional coin flip.

Quote from: Egan_BW on September 17, 2018, 10:45:49 am

Of course, it's a big advantage of play-by-post that you can change whatever you want before hitting post. If it's evident that the stats that you've come up with are unreasonable, go ahead and change them. It's just preferable that you do so before rolling. To me, rolling the dice is signing a contract that you'll accept whatever the result is, even or you don't like it.

That's generally how I feel too, and what I want to stick to, but at least in this case it wasn't until after I rolled that I realized how messed up things were.  In fairness though, it could have just been bad luck in that particular round, but it looked like I way overdid things based on the results.

To put it to some hard numbers, the NPCs that should have died had 30 HP and 6d6 and 6d6+1 damage resistance.  They were being attacked by weapons that did 6d6 of damage.  So, on average, I expected less than one point of damage to go through per hit.  Each was shot 4 times I think, and so, on average, should have lost about 3-4 HP and been fine.  However, what ended up happening was one shot ended up doing 40 points of damage because of a crit, and the NPC rolled 10 to resist and dropped to 0 immediately on the first hit.  Oops.  Next shot took her negative and that was that.

I probably should have expected the randomness to take a toll like that, but... well, I guess talking about the numbers is trying to pass the blame off to the system instead of me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 17, 2018, 09:10:10 pm

Ah. If they're asking for trouble, give 'em trouble. They're superheroes or something so they probably won't stay dead anyway. :V

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 12:50:37 am

Speaking of superheroes, here are my next character's stats after the devil dice:
18 STR, 2 DEX, 15 CON, 19 INT, 12 WIS, 18 CHA
(5th edition DND)
...Isn't it a little weird that CHA is primary for three spellcasters, INT for one?  And INT no longer determines general skill points, just a relatively large set of skills.  Whereas CHA still governs, you know, interacting with characters.  Who's the dump stat now, heh?

Not that I'm complaining, obviously, this spread is amazing.  I'm almost tempted to finally make a wizard.
...  Except that both my partymembers ended up with horrible CON and high INT, and went wizard.  They were statistically likely to get 1HP per level *anyway*, might as well learn abjuration.

Soo, I'm going to finally play a paladin.  Which I should *never* do in 3.5, ha, but 5th's oaths seem much less... rulesy.  And there are options which can work with my murderhobo-when-bored colleagues.  I think.  They seem extremely vague, probably to avoid said intraparty issues.

We also all independently went human, heh.
So our party concept (joining the DM's established world, updated for 5e) is anime-style mageschool classmates.  My paladin is on athletic scholarship.  And carries their books.  And has 19 INT, thank you, but her calling is to protect and heal.

As a human, I'm totally taking Inspiring Leader as my level 1 feat to like double their HP.  Through arcane abjurations, speeches about friendship, and videogame-style 1hp lay-on-hand revives, we shall get through this!!

(since it's 5e, maybe actually?  It's so hard to die in this unless the healer's down)

Edit:  Oh yeah I meant to ask for advice!  We each get a "+1 book" to pick from, like in the official games.  Anything we should know about?  A potent low-level abjuration, or a way for paladin to heal better?  Anything like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 18, 2018, 12:58:00 am

(What's a +1 book)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 01:00:05 am

I only learned about it from Googling.  Basically in "official" games you generally get the players hand book "plus one" other book.  Like Volo's guide to monsters (if you want to play a weird race, IIRC) or xanthumgum's guide to everything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on September 18, 2018, 01:05:47 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 12:50:37 am

Edit:  Oh yeah I meant to ask for advice!  We each get a "+1 book" to pick from, like in the official games.  Anything we should know about?  A potent low-level abjuration, or a way for paladin to heal better?  Anything like that.

Depending what level you start and are likely to reach, I'd personally be very tempted by Xanathar's Guide to Everything, purely for Find Greater Steed (level 4 spell) for a flying mount (or a rhino).  Also a couple more oath options and potentially the Prodigy feat (+1 skill prof, +1 tool prof, +1 language, and expertise in 1 skill).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 01:18:17 am

It's starting at level 1, probably ending at 4 in a month as we switch GMs.  We're likely to come back later, though.

And yeah, derp, I was fondly regarding the Oath of Redemption (Oaths (http://dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin)) which would require Xanathar's Guide.  I like it mechanically, it meshes well with my instinct (and lucky CHA roll) to do diplomacy when possible, and it allows me patience when my party members resort to violence first.

I mean, we're probably talking about goblins here.  But I can be the positive role model who mostly gets ignored - that's a pretty funny and fun role.  And since this GM does tend to like nonviolent resolutions, maybe occasionally I'll talk things down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on September 18, 2018, 01:33:24 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 12:50:37 am

(since it's 5e, maybe actually?  It's so hard to die in this unless the healer's down)

Quote from: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 01:18:17 am

It's starting at level 1

I've recently started playing in a level 1 campaign and a character was insta-killed on the first attack of the second battle of the campaign - a CR 1/4 spider bit them, got a crit, and they failed their Con vs poison save by 1.  31 points of damage in one attack to their 10hp frame :p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 02:01:15 am

Even on a crit (double damage?  And only for the bite), that seems like a lot of damage for a 1/4 CR creature O_o
Some brief googling also suggests (inconclusively) that the poison would be a separate damage source.

Regardless though, massive damage will definitely destroy them at later levels, given they're getting 1HP per level.  Level one characters would usually be the most vulnerable in 5e if I understand correctly, but certainly not for these.

Fortunately we sometimes retire characters *without* them dying, at appropriate points.  Moving on to rewarding lives as NPCs.
"we" pretty much being me, but still.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on September 18, 2018, 02:15:19 am

Hmm, yeah now that I check that maybe shouldn't have been an instakill (poison damage not doubled and separate source).  It'd still have been awfully close though - 12 damage from the bite (rolls of 6 + 5, +1 modifier), then 9 from the first poison damage roll.

Mostly I just meant to illustrate that level 1, even in 5e, is very prone to player deaths.  Though if you're playing only 1HP per level, higher levels will definitely be much worse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 02:23:04 am

I mean, *they're* running 1hp per level, because we rolled 1d20 then had the option to trade for a hidden d20.  And they both got wrekt for the second most important stat in ANY build.

Also TBH I could see including the poison damage for Massive Damage rules, but I definitely wouldn't apply the crit multiplier to it.

Still, for my partymembers, it's only the damage which "remains" after HP/tempHP/abjuration stuff which needs to be double their MaxHPs.  So if we keep enough buffer on them, and play smart, maybe they'll survive to graduate fourth year session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 18, 2018, 02:27:30 am

fourth year... LOL

Now I imagine a horrible "Hogwarts GONE HORRIBLY WRONG" campaign, with level 1 wizards ALL AROUND. LOL.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 18, 2018, 05:55:49 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 01:00:05 am

I only learned about it from Googling.  Basically in "official" games you generally get the players hand book "plus one" other book.  Like Volo's guide to monsters (if you want to play a weird race, IIRC) or xanthumgum's guide to everything.

Can you do like the Bible and choose a compendium of several books?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 18, 2018, 06:14:58 am

the most dangerous thing in 5e combat is a sneaky wizard hiding in the back with Magic Missile to insta-kill you as soon as you go down (each magic missile fails a saving throw, hits automatically and there's 1d4+1 or more )

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 18, 2018, 07:53:15 am

Quote from: scriver on September 18, 2018, 05:55:49 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on September 18, 2018, 01:00:05 am

I only learned about it from Googling.  Basically in "official" games you generally get the players hand book "plus one" other book.  Like Volo's guide to monsters (if you want to play a weird race, IIRC) or xanthumgum's guide to everything.

Can you do like the Bible and choose a compendium of several books?

Even in casual games, it's poor form to show up with a wheelbarrow full of books, claiming they're all necessary to play your character. The Adventurer's League rules are meant to create a "simple" character.

Still, PHB+1 does get pretty restrictive for us with our pegasus-riding kobold storm sorcerers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 18, 2018, 08:49:23 am

5e isn't 3.5. I've got no problems pretty much allowing all official sources and I think my old DM felt similarly - there's only three/four big books anyway.

Plus, lizardman shepherd druid. It was a fun character even though I only used it for a session.

Also, I left my RPG group for reasons unrelated to that. The only one actively recruiting in the area. Go me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 18, 2018, 10:30:48 am

The real controversy is whether or not you should use any of the Unearthed Arcana... _{Hint: You shouldn't.}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 18, 2018, 10:57:37 am

Any? Sure, depending on group. All? Sure, depending on group.

---

Side mini-rant?

"No aarakocra" is a sign of questionable DM status. In a world where greater than 50% of our enemies have ranged attacks and spells can just tell you "nope, you introduce yourself to the ground", "being mid-air with no/little armor" is a non-issue.

<ChangeMyMind.svg>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 18, 2018, 11:09:33 am

No Aarakocra. And while we're at it, no Tabaxi, and no goddamn Tortles!

Kenku only barely make the grade, and that's purely by virtue of being an oversized pirate captain's parrot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 18, 2018, 12:35:02 pm

What about No Aaracokra Barbarians and/or No Aaracokra Swashbucklers?

I'm all for No Dragonborn though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Liber celi on September 18, 2018, 04:06:19 pm

Humans only

No Thief.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2018, 05:37:04 pm

Authenticity and immersion demand that all players play human fighting-men, 3d6 in order, no "magic" nonsense, and you have to roll to determine what permanent disabilities you have developed before the age of 21.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 18, 2018, 05:42:03 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2018, 05:37:04 pm

Authenticity and immersion demand that all players play human fighting-men, 3d6 in order, no "magic" nonsense, and you have to roll to determine what permanent disabilities you have developed before the age of 21.

Sooo... WHFRP?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2018, 06:02:55 pm

Quote from: Kagus on September 18, 2018, 05:42:03 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2018, 05:37:04 pm

Authenticity and immersion demand that all players play human fighting-men, 3d6 in order, no "magic" nonsense, and you have to roll to determine what permanent disabilities you have developed before the age of 21.

Sooo... WHFRP?

What is this, kindergarten? I only play the finest zine-derived systemless settingless diceless numberless wordless settings written by neo-Nazi Discord servers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 18, 2018, 06:18:10 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2018, 06:02:55 pm

Quote from: Kagus on September 18, 2018, 05:42:03 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2018, 05:37:04 pm

Authenticity and immersion demand that all players play human fighting-men, 3d6 in order, no "magic" nonsense, and you have to roll to determine what permanent disabilities you have developed before the age of 21.

Sooo... WHFRP?

What is this, kindergarten? I only play the finest zine-derived systemless settingless diceless numberless wordless settings written by neo-Nazi Discord servers.

Oh, F.A.T.A.L. then.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on September 18, 2018, 06:22:25 pm

Could be RaHoWa, I guess. Dunno if that's diceless or not but it has the neo-Nazi stuff down pat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on September 19, 2018, 03:49:05 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on September 18, 2018, 05:37:04 pm

Authenticity and immersion demand that all players play human fighting-men, 3d6 in order, no "magic" nonsense, and you have to roll to determine what permanent disabilities you have developed before the age of 21.

Minus the disability thing that might actually be kinda fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 19, 2018, 03:52:40 pm

I've still yet to see a more entertaining character creation than that of Gamma World. Shame it's apparently a massive bitch to GM for; as being on the player side, even for the extremely short period that I got to experience it, was quite fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 19, 2018, 03:54:36 pm

For an authentic OSR experience, you need to do 4d6 keep lowest. Having sub-10 in everything is a mark of the best kind of character, don'tcha know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IronyOwl on September 19, 2018, 04:28:33 pm

Quote from: Sirus on September 18, 2018, 06:22:25 pm

Could be RaHoWa, I guess. Dunno if that's diceless or not but it has the neo-Nazi stuff down pat.

There's also Sigmata, if you want 80s-punk X-men of the left-leaning jackbooted thug variety. I'm sure it's not hipster enough, but I've heard it's very clunky.

Quote from: Kagus on September 19, 2018, 03:52:40 pm

I've still yet to see a more entertaining character creation than that of Gamma World. Shame it's apparently a massive bitch to GM for; as being on the player side, even for the extremely short period that I got to experience it, was quite fun.

My only experiences with Gamma World were laughing at chargen, mucking about a bit, and getting into a teamfight over literally nothing resulting in the deaths of all but one player. I'm not sure what part of it would be painful to GM.

On that note, I love their ammo system. It's so elegant: You can use a gun once per encounter without issue. If you use it twice or more, it runs out of ammo at the end of the encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 19, 2018, 05:01:10 pm

Quote from: IronyOwl on September 19, 2018, 04:28:33 pm

On that note, I love their ammo system. It's so elegant: You can use a gun once per encounter without issue. If you use it twice or more, it runs out of ammo at the end of the encounter.

"Alright, weapons check... How much ammo you got left?"

"Yes."


As for GW GM'ing, supposedly it's somewhat aggravating to handle encounters and the like, and campaign-level scaling is similarly a pain. At least according to one individual's high-sodium content opinion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on September 19, 2018, 08:07:48 pm

Obligatory Doom movie reference.

"Half clip... You?"
*tense dramatic beat*
"One."
*BFG obliterates the hallway*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 19, 2018, 11:04:44 pm

I personally love Feng Shui's ammo system. As long as you keep making your reload checks, your gun has an indefinitely high amount of ammo inside of it.

"Did I fire six times, or only five? Do I feel lucky?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 20, 2018, 05:21:05 pm

Anyone know of a published (web or otherwise, third party or not, any system) adventure that involves an earthquake, mining operations, plumbing, or related activity uncovering ruins, a dangerous cave system, <x> under the PCs' base of operations?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on September 20, 2018, 05:57:49 pm

Shackled City is a 1-20 campaign that takes place over a dormant volcano. A few adventures take place beneath.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on September 20, 2018, 06:06:13 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on September 20, 2018, 05:21:05 pm

Anyone know of a published (web or otherwise, third party or not, any system) adventure that involves an earthquake, mining operations, plumbing, or related activity uncovering ruins, a dangerous cave system, <x> under the PCs' base of operations?

Undermountain? Just give the PCs the bar over top of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 20, 2018, 06:13:31 pm

I'm aware that whatever I do is going to involve lots of work on my part to integrate it into our world. We're doing this west marches thing at the moment and are based out of a somewhat recently-constructed outpost. Given the west marches thing, I'm going to hack anything I do into one session or provide lots of Skyrim-style hidden exits.

The good news, there's not really a map yet so I can do just about anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on September 21, 2018, 09:45:02 am

I know there's some Adventurer's League modules (one session adventures) that involve mining. I think there's one called Oubliette in Fort Iron that takes place in a mining outpost. Might give you some ideas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 25, 2018, 09:27:14 pm

Does a lance count as one-handed for blade singers and Kenseis?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on September 25, 2018, 09:49:24 pm

Bladesinger: Yes, sorta. Bladesingers don't have a requirement to use a one handed weapon, their song simply stops if they use a weapon with two hands. So versatile weapons and laces are fine, so long as you don't use both hands to attack with (so with a lance you'd need to be mounted to attack and not lose the song)

Kenseis? I think probably the plural of Kensei is Kensei... Maybe. Anyway, no, they don't even have a requirement to use one handed weapons, but they do have a requirement to not use special weapons, like the lance (or heavy weapons, like all the proper two handed, but they can still two hand the versatile weapons).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on September 26, 2018, 06:42:30 pm

Recently while prepping for my space pirates Open Legend campaign, I discovered Blades in the Dark, and oh man oh man, I am so deep into it - already gathering some players, reading through the rulebook, watching a campaign (featuring the designer himself as the GM no less!). The premise and the setting and everything about it is just so well put together, and it pulled me in wholecloth.


We don't have much established yet (still need to do a proper session 0 which will most likely happen tomorrow) but I'm already very excited to play it, despite not really having much interest in these sorts of systems before (it's a PbtA derivative, so not quite like Dungeon or Apocalypse World, but closer to those than to FATE or DnD or what have you, and definitely different from what me and my group is used to) - hell, it's the first time I'm truly enamored with a tabletop game's default setting and want to use it instead of rolling one purely of my own design.


And the fact it has a free SRD, quite a few resources for sheets and handouts, and is very hackable? I might have just found my new favorite system, and it all stemmed from me offhandedly deciding to ask someone on a tabletop discord what all the Blades in the Dark rage is about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 27, 2018, 12:03:46 am

What is all the rage about?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 27, 2018, 02:47:26 am

Quote from: scriver on September 27, 2018, 12:03:46 am

What is all the rage about?

Barbarians.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 27, 2018, 04:28:01 am

I have also rediscovered Blades in the Dark and my group is very eager to try it (everyone had at least one thing in the ’fiction touchstones’ list that they were really into, heh). The mechanics seem really quite clever and elegant. The setting I’m not 100% sold on, but there’s nothing stopping me from tweaking and expanding it more to my liking. I haven’t been this excited to run something in ages, though the improv-leaning nature of it will be a challenge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 27, 2018, 05:29:46 am

Is it about stabbing? Stab Simulator 2000 was a pretty decent rpg system,  is it anything like it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 27, 2018, 05:31:52 am

Quote from: scriver on September 27, 2018, 05:29:46 am

Is it about stabbing? Stab Simulator 2000 was a pretty decent rpg system,  is it anything like it?

From what I've heard it's an 1800s Londonesque criminal gang RPG. Focused on general skulduggery and things like turf wars.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 27, 2018, 05:36:21 am

APACHE KNIVES

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on September 27, 2018, 07:57:23 am

Yeah, you play as a crew of scoundrels in a city which is a mishmash of 1870s London, Venice and Prague (so there's trains, rudimentary electricity, guns, the sorts), with some fantasy magic and magitech (powered by demon whale blood, of all things!) and ghostly shenanigans thrown in for good measure.
There's heisting, there's assassinations, there's smuggling, there's turf wars, there's faction relationships, and mechanics which help cut down on the boring parts - like planning no longer needs to take an hour by itself! And it's all presented very nicely as well, with a well-formatted rulebook and a bunch of useful printables like character sheets (which state what all the abilities and stuff do) and rules references.


On top of that, the roll20 character sheet for this is the slickest looking one I've ever seen on that website, holy hell.


Speaking of roll20, there's been some, err, drama surrounding it lately, but I honestly don't know what to think of it. (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/9j6jnh/rroll20_no_longer_has_a_mod_team_just/e6p9fhe/)
I definitely don't really want to abandon the platform since there's nothing that ticks the same boxes out there currently, and I'm not a paying user anyway; same goes for all my friends. Like Fantasy Grounds might have a better feature set overall, but the business model is a pretty big turnoff for us, and not all of us would be able to run that thing either (I mean it's pretty hard to beat something that is both free to use meaningfully* and runs in a browser).


* - sure you can technically play FG for free, but only as a player (no GMing), and only with those who have the money to shell out for the ultimate version.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 27, 2018, 08:48:30 am

Quote from: Mesa on September 27, 2018, 07:57:23 am

Yeah, you play as a crew of scoundrels in a city which is a mishmash of 1870s London, Venice and Prague (so there's trains, rudimentary electricity, guns, the sorts), with some fantasy magic and magitech (powered by demon whale blood, of all things!) and ghostly shenanigans thrown in for good measure.
There's heisting, there's assassinations, there's smuggling, there's turf wars, there's faction relationships, and mechanics which help cut down on the boring parts - like planning no longer needs to take an hour by itself! And it's all presented very nicely as well, with a well-formatted rulebook and a bunch of useful printables like character sheets (which state what all the abilities and stuff do) and rules references.

It sounds excellent! But are there Apache Knives?

(also if you cut out the planning part dosn't it just end up completely unplanned)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on September 27, 2018, 09:02:10 am

Quote from: scriver on September 27, 2018, 08:48:30 am

But are there Apache Knives?

Not really the question you're asking, but my very vague recollection was that equipment was very abstract and vague.  Like, I think you literally said you were "heavily" encumbered and that meant you could pull out 3 useful items at whatever point you wanted, and they could be whatever you needed for that moment, without having said what they were before hand.

The game overall looked interesting, but playing as criminals didn't appeal to me much and the one time our game group tried it, it didn't work out so great.  That was due to group dynamics much more than the game itself though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on September 27, 2018, 09:18:32 am

Quote from: Telgin on September 27, 2018, 09:02:10 am

Quote from: scriver on September 27, 2018, 08:48:30 am

But are there Apache Knives?

Not really the question you're asking, but my very vague recollection was that equipment was very abstract and vague.  Like, I think you literally said you were "heavily" encumbered and that meant you could pull out 3 useful items at whatever point you wanted, and they could be whatever you needed for that moment, without having said what they were before hand.

The game overall looked interesting, but playing as criminals didn't appeal to me much and the one time our game group tried it, it didn't work out so great.  That was due to group dynamics much more than the game itself though.

Yeah, the game does do a lot of...some would say retconning, but there are ways to twist and bend the timeline a bit to your advantage, with how equipment is handled and with the whole mechanic of flashbacks. It's not time travel[size=78%], [/size]but you definitely do not play in one continuous, unchanging timeline either.


Take this scenario for instance - you're running away from a bluecoat (policeman), you take a turn into a side alley and whoops it's a dead end! You're cornered now. You cannot use a flashback to say that you took out this exact bluecoat the day before so he wouldn't chase you into this alley now, but you can say you brought a gun with you (even if there was no mention of it up until now), or that you went into this alley earlier this week, and you know there's a hidden door here that can lead you elsewhere.


Of course the GM can impose costs on the more out-there flashbacks (in the form of Darkest Dungeon-style stress, leading to Darkest Dungeon-style traumas) so sometimes you might just end up taking these things on the chin, but still, there's ways to weasel your way out of even very dire situations with some creative thinking and GM allowance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 27, 2018, 04:34:43 pm

You might also need to roll for your action in the flashback, so there's a chance of failure. As for planning, you do have to provide one key detail (usually how you get to/approach the target) - after that... well, your characters have done the planning and you just get to choose what it was, retroactively, in flashbacks and gear choices.

Funnily enough, the game also allows for 'time travel' into the future when it comes to the resistance mechanic. The idea is that any time a player doesn't want to suffer a consequence from their action, they can choose to resist it. This automatically succeeds (usually by lowering the severity of the consequence, mind, not negating it) and they take stress for it. The thing is, the book encourages the GM to describe the consequence first in all its gory detail - which could be 'the bluecoat stabs you through the heart with her sword and you die' - and only then does the player resist and you rewind back from this glimpse of a lethal future. Most systems would have the resisting (a saving throw, generally) come before the lethal consequence, but not here. The idea is to really bring those potential consequences to life and show the players just what is at stake, I think, and it does sound rather delicious.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 29, 2018, 07:44:41 pm

My budding career as a controversial game review guy has begun.

Things I've done thus far:

• Been one of the only individuals to purchase some Redditor's game
• Given the game an honest review
• Been called a sockpuppet because the multitudes of people who don't like the guy's game are all trolls and sockpuppets of one another; it's the only possible reason anyone doesn't like it
• Caused the guy to throw a tantrum and double all of his prices

The past two/three days have been a hell of a ride.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on September 29, 2018, 10:23:15 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on September 27, 2018, 04:34:43 pm

You might also need to roll for your action in the flashback, so there's a chance of failure. As for planning, you do have to provide one key detail (usually how you get to/approach the target) - after that... well, your characters have done the planning and you just get to choose what it was, retroactively, in flashbacks and gear choices.

Yeah, it's like the "you have X amount of undeclared gear that retroactively becomes whatever you need it to be" type of ability writ large, which is actually one of the problems my group had with the system: we actually like the planning phase of a heist, because it gives the PCs and the GM a framework within which to bounce back and forth and collaborate on what the actual heist is (notionally) going to be like and get everyone on the same page. Blades' ready-fire-aim approach felt like it failed to give us that einheit, and nothing breaks immersion like realizing the GM took your description of your approach to mean something completely different than you did.

It honestly felt too cohesively designed, but that might just be the issues I've had with the fan base above and beyond the usual nontrad-RPG fan superiority.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 30, 2018, 03:22:57 am

Quote from: Mephisto on September 29, 2018, 07:44:41 pm

My budding career as a controversial game review guy has begun.

I guess I can say the same? I've been doing the Pathfinder Playtest for their new system, though it's likely a far bigger field of reviewers putting up their experiences than yours. It even has standardized feedback forms.

Overall, I'm rating it two out of five stars based on the playtest experience. I figure if I can't continue to find a 1st edition Pathfinder group, I'll likely swing over and start on 5th edition D&D rather than purchase the 2nd edition of Pathfinder. The material is too bland and the choices are too generic to satisfy my personal style of play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 30, 2018, 06:18:15 am

Quote from: Mephisto on September 29, 2018, 07:44:41 pm

Things I've done thus far:

     4. Caused the guy to throw a tantrum and double all of his prices

You'll go far, I can tell it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 30, 2018, 08:54:38 am

It's not like that was my goal. He just really hates critical feedback,  I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on September 30, 2018, 10:56:51 am

What game was this, then?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 30, 2018, 12:29:07 pm

Enjoy (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/13195/Knights-amp-Legends-Tabletop-RPG), I guess. He seems to have realized that the whole price doubling thing was bullshit and has reverted it, but here's the DTRPG update I received:

Quote

Dear purchaser, it is with great regret I inform you K&L prices went up due to some folk misusing the launch sale to deliberately attempt to smear the game's image. As some of you may already know K&L was a the fruit of 3 years of hard labor and had the goal of being that quality RPG for only a few bucks. Unfortunately there won't be any sales anytime soon. Sincerely - Felix

Want to read more? The guy's fairly prolific on Reddit but you won't find much - he deletes his threads when people call him on anything or submit real feedback.

Search for user EquisDigitalStudio on https://redditsearch.io with the time period bumped up to see the game in all of its... glory?

If you don't want to do that, how about checking out this little teaser (http://removeddit.com/r/IndieGameDirectory/comments/8pxb7v/knights_legends_the_complete_edition_a_free/) instead?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 30, 2018, 06:19:10 pm

In what might go down as The Sleepy Campaign, referring as much to the players as the DM, we've been doing a 5e campaign which basically starts with getting massacred by a troll.  And when that didn't work, one of our former evil PCs.

Those of us who finagled escape from the helpless situation (not me, I'm a paladin and vastly underrated the troll's health) gained bonus XP as the high-level goblin rogue former-PC slaughtered them :P  We're level 3.

So now we're in Hell, thanks to a nebulous being who may have hinted at being a servant of Pelor.  We're to retrieve an item from elsewhere on the great infernal battlefield...  Specifically the lair of Tiamat, apparently.

we're still level 3

On the plus side we cannot permanently die, I guess.  We've been told that we'll reincarnate without consequence at the place we entered, the outskirts of a hell town called Darkspine or somesuch (hm, I might have actually remembered that name correctly, I was kinda joking).

We are guided in this quest by a true neutral entity, a distorted humanoid with cat-like eyes and an oblong skull.

I think we were supposed to cross the meteor-ridden battlefield using skeletal steeds.  Instead we played a game of chance to acquire "totally legit" infernal passports, from some friendly wizards, a human and a gnome.  After our guide warned us never to trust anyone in Hell who claims to be a wizard.  We lost twice, but won the third time!  Then won a persuasion check to have our "legit" documents accepted.

(We already *had* fake documents, we got swindled hard for 720 gold)

Anyway, the TWO survival checks (hurry and then heat) for crossing the wastes in reasonable time were completely unbearable.  Not least because one of us has 2 con, and my character gets disadvantage from heavy armor.  And we blew our money.  What to do?

My character is now carrying our cancer-ridden 2-con mage (devil's dice, hehe) and... also my splint armor.  Which is adamantine, the first adamantine I've ever used in DND, but we're using it as an ice chest.

The other two characters cast "ice knife" in it every night.  Since it's conjuration not evocation (FOR SOME REASON), the ice remains, and gets us through the infernal heat.  So we have a mythic ice chest.  Keep in mind that Ice Knife specifically *explodes*, hence containing the explosion in forged adamantine.

Also we're all young anime girls who just graduated from magic school together.  I'm a transfer student from Paladin-land on athletic scholarship.  They are a shy necromancer and a cancer-ridden nerd, respectively.  We ALL took the noble background, independently.

This is happening in the same gameworld as the Shugenja stuff, we just collaborated to do a theme heh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 30, 2018, 11:21:43 pm

<snip>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 01, 2018, 05:48:42 pm

@Rolan7 Cool! My group has never really done any extraplanar adventuring, other than I guess when we ran through Curse of Strahd (though Barovia's extraplanar qualities don't really do much other than make it a bummer to be there). Also, I agree that it's somewhat weird that they made Ice Knife conjuration, and yet, for some reason, they made Melf's Acid Arrow evocation, when I'm pretty sure it's always been conjuration, which was kind of disappointing for my conjuration specialist wizard.

---

And, in case anyone's interested, I figured I'd shared what's been going on in the current Apocalypse World game I'm in.

So, I'm playing a Hocus, because I felt it was the best fit for the concept I had in mind: I'm a DM, who goes by the name Dungeon Master, and I run games for my cult of players as an escape form this post-apocalyptic world we live in. At least, that's the idea, but sometimes the post-apocalypse has other ideas.

Basically, the first session began with me running a session for my group in the abandoned library where we hung out, when suddenly we got raided by The Police (The Police, of course, being a raider gang styled after the late 1970's/early 1980's English rock band of the same name, which is a common thing in our post-apocalypse). I did my best to avoid any confrontation, but still ended up getting shot, and so we retreated to the nearby hold of New Berlin, a former football stadium run by the Hardholder Karl.

After that, I did my best to avoid getting into any sort of fights while still running games, until a few weeks ago in-game, when an earthquake caused some of the river near New Berlin to empty into a chasm, which revealed a cave downstream below the now dry riverbed. Soon after, strange ant people began pouring out of the cave, which the Hardholder was quite reluctant to risk sending his people out to deal with. But Dungeon Master got a vision from the psychic maelstrom basically telling him there was something he really needed down in those caves, so he ended up joining up one other player and a mercenary bodyguard he somehow seduced into following him (despite having a -1 for Hot) on what seemed like a suicide expedition.

Surprisingly enough, though, it turned out the ant people were pretty easily to kill/avoid, so we pretty soon reached the back of the cave, where we found an electronic door which we needed a talking robot head to activate, and inside we found a facility, which my character referred to as a "dungeon" (not that he doesn't have a decently firm grip on reality, but it was the best description of the place he had from his experience). We didn't get too long to explore the facility, however, before the river had apparently filled up the chasm and started flooding the cave again and the facility with it.

So, after defeating a robot, the other player with me decided to get out while she was still alive, but I wanted to see what was in the room it was guarding, so I was all alone when I met Spencer, a character probably best described as a real-life version of Fallout's Vault Boy. I urged him to get out before the place filled up with water, but he didn't want to leave and seemed much more focused on determining whether or not I was a mutant, and he tried to choke me once was convinced of the fact that I wasn't a pure human like him, so I eventually just said "have fun drowning, you pscho" and GTFO of there.

So I was a bit surprised this last session, when a gunman was shooting up the marketplace, and it turned out to be Spencer.

I mostly ran into him by accident while trying to get away from where I thought the shooting was coming from and managed to grab his gun such that, while I couldn't take it from his grasp, I could keep it pointed away from any innocent bystanders. This apparently impressed him, but not enough to convince him that I and everyone else in the city weren't filthy mutants that he needed to destroy. This tactic continued to prove useless even when Karl, the Hardholder, attempted to prove his humanity by drawing some of his own blood with a knife and stripping naked.
Eventually Spencer regained control of the gun and shot me, and soon after that I looked at him through the psychic maelstrom and got the impression that he was a robot, which was confirmed when Karl stabbed him in the neck and he didn't bleed. I confronted Spencer with this evidence, hoping he'd see that it didn't make sense to kill people for not being pure humans if he himself wasn't even human, but, instead, he put the gun to his head, pulled the trigger, and shot out robot brain bits.

The situation didn't go quite how I had hoped, but the people nearby who witnessed the event called me a hero for apparently convincing the robot to kill itself and lifted me on their shoulders to the nearest bar, to the dismay of Karl, who did not receive any such accolades.

I had gained enough experience over the session to get an improvement, so I decided to take the one that lets me get a holding, and for next session, I think I'm going to say the people like me enough that they decided to help take the library back from The Police, and I think I might make it into some sort of headquarters for real life adventuring groups, trying to gather treasures from dangerous ruins of the post apocalypse and/or defenders against incursions from further Spencers, since Karl had a vision that there were many more Spencers which either had been made or were being made.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on October 02, 2018, 11:42:20 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 04:38:59 pm

I like that there's also a barbarian kit that lets people resurrect you for free. That seems appropriate.

This is old, from the first page of my new replies, but... at first I read that as "lets you resurrect people for free" and was picturing an enraged barbarian just shaking and screaming at any slain teammates at the top of his or her lungs until they got the message and came back to life.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 03, 2018, 02:10:28 am

Quote from: Yoink on October 02, 2018, 11:42:20 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 31, 2018, 04:38:59 pm

I like that there's also a barbarian kit that lets people resurrect you for free. That seems appropriate.

This is old, from the first page of my new replies, but... at first I read that as "lets you resurrect people for free" and was picturing an enraged barbarian just shaking and screaming at any slain teammates at the top of his or her lungs until they got the message and came back to life.

"Wake the dead!" feat--  Your berserker rage voice is so loud, obnoxious, and forceful that it can literally reach across the aether to other planes of reality to compel the dead to return to their bodies, just to make you shut up.  When using, requires a roll to base CON or risk having a stroke. Nearby slain enemies have a 2D6 chance of being resurrected as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on October 03, 2018, 07:31:14 pm

...2d6? As in you roll 2d6 and then percentile to determine if they wake?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 04, 2018, 04:54:34 am

Quote from: Gentlefish on October 03, 2018, 07:31:14 pm

...2d6? As in you roll 2d6 and then percentile to determine if they wake?

It's magnified duodecimal form, where 12 is a full score equal to 100 in the traditional centumal form.

For easy conversion, just think of every 1 in magnified duodecimal as being equal to approximately 8.33333333333 percent and you'll get used to it in no time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 04, 2018, 09:16:09 am

Indeed, but you know that was totally a joke right?  Made up on the spot?

Sure, it could make for a hilarious house rule, but absolutely no real effort was expended making it balanced. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on October 04, 2018, 09:20:34 am

Classic Bay12. :))   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 04, 2018, 01:34:12 pm

Had my first session of Blades in the Dark tonight. People found it exceptionally fun, even if the system took some getting used to. It's great for developing your improv for sure. My players planned more than probably intended by the system, but once they got into the action they were pulling flashbacks and preparations out of their asses like pros. I think you can have a fair amount of planning in the system just fine, though - they spent a lot of time gathering information and discussing potential ways in based on that, so players who enjoy the planning stage get their share of it.

The score was simple enough. The local district boss sent them to steal cargo from a ship at the Docks so they could prove their worth and get his blessing for operating on his territory. The players' crew were Hawkers and their produce was, uh, tea. Someone suggested tea as a joke and I figured, hey, there's historical precedent for something like tea being limited to the upper classes only as a luxury product. The Boilers were born, illegally supplying their special tea blend throughout the city. They gathered intel through sending a ghost to scout the ship, trying to get to port records and failing, getting access to the ship's plans from its builders and surveying the ship and scene in general. Then they... decided to disguise themselves as health and safety inspectors and stormed the ship with fake documents.

Talking their way onboard was the easy part. In the cargo hold they found that they needed to get rid of the crew following them on their inspection, so they 'discovered' a terrible health hazard. Rats! Wait, no, demon rats! The Whisper flashbacked to the night before, when he bound ghosts into the bodies of rats and gathered them up in a big ol' bag. Said demon rats were then released to terrible effect. A bit more misdirection and a knocked-out ship's Whisper later, they were searching the hold for their cargo - a coffin hidden underneath the grain in storage.

Said coffin turned out to be covered in occult wards which caused no small amount of trouble. How to get it out, anyway? Well, obviously, the answer is to blow a hole into the side of the ship and push it out into a waiting gondola outside! By this time, the crew was alerted to their shenanigans and tried to swarm in to get them, but the Whisper managed a Desperate action to get a drowned crewman's ghost to fight them off and buy our heroes time. Eventually, everybody's in the boat (though not without the Slide being shot in the back) and the coffin is being dragged in a net through the water (they couldn't neutralize the wards, so they settled for dragging it behind them) towards safety. But oh no! The Cutter angered the local gondoliers earlier when maneuvering into position - damn newcomers stealing their customers - and a bunch of gondolas now blocked their way (which caused a nice shift from 'oh no, we angered the gondola mob, sooo terrible' to 'OH SHIT THE GONDOLA MOB'. Intimidation and waving around guns got them out of the way, fortunately, and after a few more obstacles our heroes escaped safe and sound.

The coffin turned out to contain a devil's skeleton, which the local gang boss was distilling into a powerful hallucinogen called devil's tar, which several of the party naturally immediately asked to try. And that's where we left off, with a whole lot of Heat from generally blowing shit up, causing a commotion, being chased by bluecoats and leaving the ship's Whisper to be eaten by enraged demon rats. Not so bad, as first missions go!

Fun, all in all. We may continue this next week instead of the DnD session we had planned. I'm fine either way - liking the lightweight and improv nature of Blades quite a bit, and I might adapt it to other kinds of games just as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 04, 2018, 01:45:20 pm

My copy of Shadows Over Sol: Siren's Call is supposed to arrive today. I've got about half a group put together at the moment. Excitement! I hope it works out for once.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 04, 2018, 04:54:12 pm

Blades in the Dark is kinda sounding like Old Man Henderson: The RPG.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 05, 2018, 02:51:44 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 04, 2018, 04:54:12 pm

Blades in the Dark is kinda sounding like Old Man Henderson: The RPG.

Well, I don’t know. In what sense? You’re free to run a more grounded kind of game with it. It’s just that the majority of my group’s adventures and missions end with everything on fire and corpses everywhere, whatever the system or setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 05, 2018, 03:07:43 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 04, 2018, 01:45:20 pm

My copy of Shadows Over Sol: Siren's Call is supposed to arrive today. I've got about half a group put together at the moment. Excitement! I hope it works out for once.

I've never heard of this. I'm guessing it's science fiction?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 05, 2018, 04:34:15 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on October 05, 2018, 02:51:44 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 04, 2018, 04:54:12 pm

Blades in the Dark is kinda sounding like Old Man Henderson: The RPG.

Well, I don’t know. In what sense? You’re free to run a more grounded kind of game with it. It’s just that the majority of my group’s adventures and missions end with everything on fire and corpses everywhere, whatever the system or setting.

Henderson's character was based on a massive, rambling background that effectively accounted for every situation he could get into, and what it didn't account for could be fudged because the GM refused to read the entire thing and basically just went along with it.

It's what made Henderson as powerful as he was, he had an "in-character reason" written down that gave him access to every skill or item he could need on a whim. The whole mayhem and destruction and killing elder beings thing was really just an entertaining sideline to Henderson's player's vendetta against the GM.


This just sounds like it bypasses the requirement of an animosity-fueled obsession, and gives you Madman: The Improv off the bat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 05, 2018, 07:08:14 am

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2018, 03:07:43 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 04, 2018, 01:45:20 pm

My copy of Shadows Over Sol: Siren's Call is supposed to arrive today. I've got about half a group put together at the moment. Excitement! I hope it works out for once.

I've never heard of this. I'm guessing it's science fiction?

Yes. Shadows Over Sol is meant to support sci-fi horror (the full name, in fact, is Shadows Over Sol: Science Fiction Horror Roleplaying). It's also just a good hard SF system in general. It's received an award (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/sealofapproval.php) for having tech that doesn't outright break the laws of physics.

So, the first sizable supplement comes out - Siren's Call: Interstellar Colonization Roleplaying. Experience a different kind of horror - alien beings on an alien world, realizing you'll never see Earth again and anyone you left behind is dead, making hard decisions when it comes to managing your colony.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 05, 2018, 10:22:01 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 05, 2018, 07:08:14 am

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2018, 03:07:43 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 04, 2018, 01:45:20 pm

My copy of Shadows Over Sol: Siren's Call is supposed to arrive today. I've got about half a group put together at the moment. Excitement! I hope it works out for once.

I've never heard of this. I'm guessing it's science fiction?

Yes. Shadows Over Sol is meant to support sci-fi horror (the full name, in fact, is Shadows Over Sol: Science Fiction Horror Roleplaying). It's also just a good hard SF system in general. It's received an award (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/sealofapproval.php) for having tech that doesn't outright break the laws of physics.

So, the first sizable supplement comes out - Siren's Call: Interstellar Colonization Roleplaying. Experience a different kind of horror - alien beings on an alien world, realizing you'll never see Earth again and anyone you left behind is dead, making hard decisions when it comes to managing your colony.

Sounds pretty cool! Does the colony managing part mean it also features managetorial aspects?

Quote from: greatorder on October 05, 2018, 07:37:18 am

Want to run a D&D campaign at uni. I have one friend that's interested. I tried the society but it was awkward as fuuuuuuuuuuck. Not because they were necessarily bad at socialising so much as it was their type of socialising and mine were pretty damn incompatible.

To be fair, your type of socialising is usually enjoyed alone in your bed- or bathroom, though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 05, 2018, 10:46:18 am

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2018, 10:22:01 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 05, 2018, 07:08:14 am

Siren's Call: Interstellar Colonization Roleplaying. Experience a different kind of horror - alien beings on an alien world, realizing you'll never see Earth again and anyone you left behind is dead, making hard decisions when it comes to managing your colony.

Sounds pretty cool! Does the colony managing partpretty cool! Does the colony managing part mean it also features managetorial aspects?

Some amount, yes. You do your adventurey shenanigans on the small scale, but then there's the concept of a "colony turn" where you fast forward a year and your decisions come into effect.

Super high-level overview, mind - that's all from various online descriptions. I haven't read that bit myself yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 05, 2018, 11:10:57 am

Reminds me of that old Arthurian legend game!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 07, 2018, 12:47:12 am

Quote from: Roll20 excerpt, I was asked to post without comment

Flavia: floating pink blossoms
drift down, waft through the air
leave a pretty corpse

Cassandra: cherry blossoms bloom
three magical girls in hell
it's snowing on mt fuji

caulk the ice barrel and float across

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 07, 2018, 03:05:28 am

Already one of our regulars has quit Pathfinder Playtest, and the rest seem about ready to wrap up as well.

Thus, I'm prepping for my 1st Edition Pathfinder game, where the group play a team of SWAT style guards.

I'm calling it the Primary Independent Guard Squad, or P.I.G.S. for short.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 07, 2018, 05:21:35 am

Not the Tactical Breach Wizards?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on October 08, 2018, 09:14:44 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 07, 2018, 05:21:35 am

Not the Tactical Breach Wizards?

i'm reminded of Eldritch Arsekicking.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 08, 2018, 09:47:31 am

Now that's a game I don't hear people talking about often.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 11, 2018, 09:37:50 am

That blades in the dark session sounds like a blast.

Quote from: Kagus on October 05, 2018, 04:34:15 am

It's what made Henderson as powerful as he was, he had an "in-character reason" written down that gave him access to every skill or item he could need on a whim.

Honestly, this is how playing an older character should be. You only get old by living for a while first. Hand waving that as "and then he slaved away in a dead end job for thirty years" is not a great way to build an adventurer. Even ignoring the "then why is this a PC" question (which mythos-oriented games can answer easily) it's just not how humans work. Everyone finds something to keep them going psychologically, and if it's not work it's something else.

The problem, of course, is that writing decades of backstory before the game starts is a hassle. There are ways around that by allowing the addition of backstory details in play, either as a character trait, a full-on subsystem, or just informally as most people do anyway. Informal addition is least appropriate to contain mechanical benefits but is adequate as an explanation for why you're adding a certain skill to your character. As a trait works if you want one older character who tells stories from his past about why he's good at everything, though this requires a player who himself has at least some of the wisdom of age. And doing it as a subsystem is good if you want a narrativist game emulating other forms of media by having all PCs be fully realized characters whose backstories relate to situations they find themselves in and the main plot, and come up organically.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 11, 2018, 12:50:27 pm

Sure, people live full lives, but not everyone lives 320 pages worth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 11, 2018, 01:28:31 pm

I'm a fan of a good backstory as much as the next person but I'd never allow it to just arbitrarily give you skills, knowledge, and equipment like in the Henderson story. It's at that point where the rules of the system get thrown out the window and he's not even playing the same game as the other players anymore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on October 11, 2018, 04:12:35 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 11, 2018, 01:28:31 pm

I'm a fan of a good backstory as much as the next person but I'd never allow it to just arbitrarily give you skills, knowledge, and equipment like in the Henderson story. It's at that point where the rules of the system get thrown out the window and he's not even playing the same game as the other players anymore.

That's why my oldest character, Charles Babworth the 60-something, ex-army, gentleman rogue would often say "back in Kandahar..." which entertained the group and was a way of saying "my character has lived, but no it isn't useful to the story".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 11, 2018, 06:12:03 pm

My first serious DND character was an old elf - 300 years old in fact.  Yet he was level 1, despite the world having been almost covered in undead for most of that time.

The DM and I worked it out, though.  There were already isolated pockets of life in the world, holding back the undead in various ways.  The city we started it used martial force and paladin magic.  An enclave of monks hid in an antimagic field.  The elves and feyfolk, it turned out, resided on a remote volcanic island in tune with the 4 elements.  It wasn't magically hidden, just so remote that the three lichlords didn't even know.  They barely cared about any survivors actually, more interested in their bizarre personal research/goals and keeping wary eyes on each other.

But anyway, my character was a diplomat to the fey from the elves.  It basically involved playing games and being pranked for 250 years.  Sounds sorta horrific, actually, but apparently he came away with a fanatic belief in the innate goodness of all creatures.  And like, no actual worldly knowledge.  Just a Vow of Poverty and a high diplomacy skill from his painful naivety.

Getting sent to check on the paladin city and its constant war for survival was a pretty rude awakening, heh.  And we almost had a party fight when our fighter murdered some captured Asmodeus cultists.

Turned out surprisingly well, though.  Around level 12, I think, we had a climactic battle with a demon we'd unleashed.  Our CN fighter sacrificed himself to seal it in Limbo, our LE bard (I know, multiclassed) left to study the Book of Vile Darkness, and my Exalted NG druid gave up his Exalted status as naive.  But remained NG, and became governor and protector of his home (the Everfree Isles), enlisting the aid of several unsavory sorts to help protect that very naivety.

After all, it's kinda his fault that the Lichlords learned of the Isles.  But a rocky alliance with a Machiavellian vampire... well, that's a long story, which we mostly experienced third-hand as a new party.

He did have to say goodbye to Duskwing, his celestial owl companion.  But she's waiting for him in Elysium.
I *love* retiring characters.

(His son, my next PC was a Satyr and had no mother, and eventually became an alienist heehee)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on October 12, 2018, 03:08:01 am

Last week we had my Open Legend session (even though the premise is pretty much identical to that of Scum & Villainy, which in turn is literally "Blades in the Dark in space"). Gonna have to wait for another week or two until we can play again though. ;o;

Spoiler: "A report" (click to show/hide)

A ragtag bunch of space criminals, thrown onto a prison ship, on course to the Solar System, or more specifically, Pluto, which is now a prison planet, where criminals from across the galaxy get dropped off.
The cruise was going mostly fine, until the ship left hyperspace in the Solar System improperly, causing the ship's reactor to overload and go into stasis, leaving most systems on the ship offline - an opportunity the party took advantage of to break out of their cells (using the psychic alien's amazing innate telekinetic powers, pushing the doors off their hinges), cause chaos in the cell block and run into the next section of the ship, the lower-security cell block, which also happened to contain a sort of lobby that the prisoners could hang out in...sometimes.


Said cell block was being occupied by some guards, which were blocking the party's way towards the next area of the ship, so after a bit of thinking, the same psychic alien came up with the idea of using her illusory powers (which she cannot do 'vision' stuff with, only taste, smell, touch and sound) to make the crew (and all other inmates) think there's a dangerous mutant crawling through the vents.
This did scare off the guards in the lobby, which gave the party some time to break out a few other inmates (specifically, those from a gang whose leader was locked up right next to them at the start), but also exhausted the psychic and caused her to collapse.


They were about to wrap up and start heading towards the cargo bay (where most of their gear was located, which a lot of them could really appreciate having because the psychic was kind of the only one capable of using most of her abilities 'innately') when they saw guards coming back to investigate the purported mutant.


And we had to end it on that cliffhanger, but I already have some devious ideas in mind.
(Namely that the mutant is real, which the party did already suspect, and has indeed broken out. All while, the ship's reactor is slowly being repaired, and may go online soon, which the party may or may not appreciate - I'm using a Blades-style progress clock to let the party be aware that it's happening, and keep the tension up a bit.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 12, 2018, 06:54:22 pm

What's the rule of thumb for Perception checks in tabletop games? One per player, one per situation?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 12, 2018, 06:55:21 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 12, 2018, 06:54:22 pm

What's the rule of thumb for Perception checks in tabletop games? One per player, one per situation?

Cool guys don't roll Perception for AoE blasts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 12, 2018, 06:56:43 pm

Three per area, party-wide, for my group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 12, 2018, 08:23:47 pm

I roll that each character gets an individual Perception check after selecting marching order, then I apply LOS and distance penalties to either determine the distance the encounter begins and who acts in a surprise round, or if nobody beats the DC, the positions of the party for the ambush. New encounter, new Perception checks. Typically I'll get the players to work out the details of their order and checks while I draw the map, so it doesn't take too much time out of the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 12, 2018, 09:23:07 pm

I'm more asking about Perception checks to find traps or clues. Like, one rolls and fails to find anything. Do I allow someone else to roll Perception? Do I let the entire party have a shot?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 13, 2018, 05:32:43 am

In 5e, unless they're actively searching you just compare it to their passive perception, which is handy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 13, 2018, 05:36:25 am

I am always that guy who has to investigate EVERYTHING.

"Oh, an ORDINARY DOORWAY eh?  No-- I disbelieve that it is ORDINARY until AFTER I have detect magic'd it, checked it for suspicious drafts, examined it for unusual grooves, holes, mysteriously different flooring near or inside it, etc!"

because "innocuous looking objects" are like the "Death du-jour" of dungeon of doom interior decorating.

:P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 13, 2018, 05:47:36 am

Detect magic activates contingent teleport, weird is transported to a 10'x10' room filled with completely generic items.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 13, 2018, 05:51:27 am

"SHIT! NOBODY MOVE! There's some SHIT going on here! I *KNOW* it!"

LOL!!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 13, 2018, 06:03:02 am

My group alternates between obsessively checking everything and carelessly waltzing right into traps, depending on mood. My paladin prefers the latter. My god will protect me! I’m not too fond of dungeon crawls with a ton of traps, anyway - just feels like a waste of time going through the ’discuss-search-disarm’ cycle constantly.

I generally let as many players do Perception checks as they want. If there’s a trap or an ambush, their caution is likely rewarded. If there’s a clue or a hint, well, they’re better off seeing it so they can actually use it. I rarely use traps anyway - I feel like their existence channels players into an overcautious and slow playstyle that I don’t care for. We have limited time and opportunities for sessions and going slow keeps us in the same adventure for real-time months.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: sjm9876 on October 13, 2018, 09:01:18 am

I run similar to DH. Anyone can make perception checks, any time, but I rarely use more minor traps, instead preferring bigger more obvious one, and perception checks giving hints as to the nature (so for example an isolated plinth with a reward on top, or a mangled corpse in a hallway, perception check might reveal the slight depression of a pressure plate). Essentially I'll drop something in that might prompt a perception check. Though mangled corpses may equally be from monsters, and a perception check might reveal bite marks instead, so they never know quite what to expect.

Passive perception is a thing in some systems, though it always feels a bit odd to me using it in home game content as I already know who can and can't detect each trap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 13, 2018, 09:06:52 am

well thats what Passive Perception is, isnt it? A way for the GM to know who's most likely to spot traps without any dice-rolling to give the game away

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 13, 2018, 09:07:46 am

I'm not a fan of traps at all, they're both unrealistic* most of the time and very hit/miss. I prefer things like murderholes in chokepoints. But then I also don't use dungeons as a concept much, preferring castles and forts when I need a difficult to assail position.

*Most traps are the equivalent of sticking landmines on your front path, inconvenient and liable to kill friendlies more than they'd stop a determined invader.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 13, 2018, 11:50:06 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 13, 2018, 09:07:46 am

*Most traps are the equivalent of sticking landmines on your front path, inconvenient and liable to kill friendlies more than they'd stop a determined invader.

And yet we build them in forts all the time...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 13, 2018, 04:17:04 pm

I think the last time I encountered a trap in the standard D&D sense it was literally just a tripwire set up to trigger a bunch of crossbows which had been set on the floor sixty feet further up the corridor in a very haphazard way, because the occupants were only there for a short while

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on October 13, 2018, 04:47:52 pm

I don't exactly use traps either, in particular because a lot of standard traps don't exactly fit a sci-fi setting (in particular, a spaceship), although inevitably something will come up - though not now because the ship my party is on is in statis so most defenses (namely, turrets) don't exactly work, though that might change if the party fails to stop the reactors from being repaired...


Barring this doubly specific scenario however, I don't see the appeal of traps in general either, at least of those that serve as minor nuisances or stopgaps rather than genuine challenges in their own right - plus there is also that issue of "more likely to be troublesome to your own troops and minions and whonot, than to invaders" with most trap layouts (which is kind of an immersion breaker) - then again, Dwarf Fortress' many varied trap designs do show that you can have a functional living space that is still defended through traps both big and small, so maybe I'm in the wrong there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 13, 2018, 05:17:16 pm

I use traps, but in a more logical way than a simple "HP tax for walking," typically as a part of an encounter. For example, the party is in town at a big outdoor festival and gets delivered a written message that contains explosive runes, the trap acting as a signal to trigger an ambush by hidden assassins. A wizard's tower has a room guarded by a clay golem with a permanent acid fog trap that heals the golem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 13, 2018, 08:00:47 pm

Quote from: Mesa on October 13, 2018, 04:47:52 pm

I don't exactly use traps either, in particular because a lot of standard traps don't exactly fit a sci-fi setting (in particular, a spaceship)

But advanced technology makes for so many great trap possibilities!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 16, 2018, 10:12:29 am

Quote from: scriver on October 13, 2018, 08:00:47 pm

Quote from: Mesa on October 13, 2018, 04:47:52 pm

I don't exactly use traps either, in particular because a lot of standard traps don't exactly fit a sci-fi setting (in particular, a spaceship)

But advanced technology makes for so many great trap possibilities!

Electrified things, dangerous mechanisms exposed to people, malfunctioning devices that explode, rerouted coolant system that freezes or fries the room if something is activated, empty elevator shaft with a hologram of an elevator waiting, etc

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 16, 2018, 10:58:21 am

Concealed panels that open the room to void.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 16, 2018, 11:18:23 am

I use traps as a way to give the party plot points that they might otherwise have missed. At their most basic level, the fact that a particular doorway or container was trapped telegraphs that someone didn't want anyone going that way, so there's probably something of interest further on. It can also foreshadow who they're up against if, for example, it uses a particular type of esoteric poison or was built in some characteristic way.

Enemies can certainly serve the same purpose, but traps can't be interrogated (which can easily become a tediously open-ended process even if torture isn't involved) and are generally more predictable in their effects.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 16, 2018, 11:21:21 am

You know what else can't be interrogated?  Bulettes.  They don't need orders, they don't remember faces, they just kill everything.  They also make an excellent unwanted visitor disposal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 16, 2018, 11:42:40 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 16, 2018, 11:21:21 am

You know what else can't be interrogated?  Bulettes.  They don't need orders, they don't remember faces, they just kill everything.  They also make an excellent unwanted visitor disposal.

Unless you're wearing a certain jerkin...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 16, 2018, 11:45:45 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 16, 2018, 11:21:21 am

You know what else can't be interrogated?  Bulettes.  They don't need orders, they don't remember faces, they just kill everything.  They also make an excellent unwanted visitor disposal.

Yep, they're almost totally useless for my purposes. They can't tell the party anything they couldn't get from a sapient enemy, but unlike a guard they can't be negotiated with. They're boring to trick, too, as difficult as they reputedly are to outsmart.

I guess they could be fought, but...why?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 16, 2018, 12:21:43 pm

I think the idea is "fun surprise at the bottom of that false-floor chute"

IE, the owner of the dungeon knows all about the trap. It is there for adventurers that he does not want to deal with personally. (think, arrogant mage type.) He does not want to hire minions, they cost money and ask questions.  Instead, he can just keep dangerous creatures down there, and the fact that they are starving with no way out just makes them all the more interested in eating whatever falls down the chute.  Bonus if the creatures are smart enough to actively hunt adventurers that fall down there, AND are impervious to asking or being asked questions, since then adventurers could not ask them or compel them to divulge any way in or out other than the chute.

This would be a trap that is for a more hard-core group though. Kinda like the rouge-like of pen and paper sessions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 16, 2018, 12:40:34 pm

I like having traps that act as a doorbell for the residents of the dungeon/whatever. The adventurer's freak out when they trigger a tripwire, and then get paranoid when they realize the trap didn't do anything to them. But it might. And its not as situational as a pit trap, so it can be anywhere.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on October 16, 2018, 10:35:24 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 16, 2018, 12:21:43 pm

IE, the owner of the dungeon knows all about the trap. It is there for adventurers that he does not want to deal with personally. (think, arrogant mage type.) He does not want to hire minions, they cost money and ask questions.  Instead, he can just keep dangerous creatures down there, and the fact that they are starving with no way out just makes them all the more interested in eating whatever falls down the chute.  Bonus if the creatures are smart enough to actively hunt adventurers that fall down there, AND are impervious to asking or being asked questions, since then adventurers could not ask them or compel them to divulge any way in or out other than the chute.

This would be a trap that is for a more hard-core group though. Kinda like the rouge-like of pen and paper sessions.

F'rex, the gelatinous cube, because there's always room for Jell-O.  A gelatinous cube down the 10'x10' pit is a classic example of adventurer and waste disposal all in one.  Need to clean around the tower?  Free-range gelatinous cubes will keep your corridors spic and span, as long as they span 10'.  A gelatinous cube over (or under, but the mental image of a suspended gelatinous cube is funnier) the front door will solve all your problems with solicitors, and as long as you have acid immunity, they make handy carry-alls: just plop whatever (inorganic) thing you need inside of them until you need to pull it out.  Best of all, if you're the sort of anti-social or hoity-toity sort that doesn't want to see the hired help, they're transparent enough that you need an appropriate skill check (based on edition) to even see it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 17, 2018, 07:17:15 am

I hate using gelatinous cubes as a surprise encounter.

The players always see right through it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 17, 2018, 07:28:37 am

Well, yeah-- they are gelatinous cubes-- they tend to be rather translucent.

You fix that with a good illusion spell, and make them part of a wall in a dark corridor or something.  They feel their way along, and SHLURP! Suddenly the bard is missing!

/kidding

I do like the idea of them being at the bottom (and occupying the entire space down there, so it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to NOT land on it) of a rather nasty fall-away floor.  I imagine a big pile of loot that is being held up by a rather powerful levitation spell, enticing people to enter the room. Since the treasure weighs nothing (as far as the floor trap is concerned, since it is held up by magic) but adventurers DO have weight, it can be a VERY sensitive trap.  Give it a good 3 round "fuse" so that they think they are safe after entering the room-- then FLOOM! Down they go-- treasure stays where it is, suspended by the levitation. Once no weight is on the floor, it resets.

No muss, no fuss.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 17, 2018, 07:32:21 am

Gets messy when you have a party member capable of casting Summon Monster. A 1st level wand is a really cheap trap finding tool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 20, 2018, 12:27:22 pm

Introducing: The Yoyo!

Requirements are 6th level Tempest Domain Cleric, and 1 level of Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard.

Cast Lightning Lure to bring a creature up to 10' closer to you. If it's within 5 feet of you after the pull, deal lightning damage. When dealing lightning damage to a Large or smaller creature, you can move it up to 10' away from you for free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Andres on October 21, 2018, 05:54:30 am

If you wanted to make Artix von Krieger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_z3N3liEA) in DnD 5e, would you be able to do so? If so, how?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 21, 2018, 06:00:22 am

"Von Krieger"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 21, 2018, 07:26:46 am

Quote from: Andres on October 21, 2018, 05:54:30 am

If you wanted to make Artix von Krieger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_z3N3liEA) in DnD 5e, would you be able to do so? If so, how?

Well, first up, (since he is clearly fighting skeletal mages here) you are going to have to arm him with something OTHER than that pig sticker he is waving around. Bladed weapons do half-damage to skeletal enemies. I would personally suggest a mace of disruption, but that's just me.

Since this guy is clearly a paladin of some kind, I would start there.  He appears to have access to the Spiritual Weapon (http://dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Spiritual_Weapon) spell (and at a fairly high level to take out a big bad, AND the conjuror with it). That's in the evocation domain, so keep that in mind. Also appears to have the Lucky feat, Defensive Duelist feat, and Great Weapon Master feat. He's wearing heavy armor, so I would take that feat too. Appears to have proficiency with long swords and war-hammers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 21, 2018, 07:36:38 am

Quote from: Andres on October 21, 2018, 05:54:30 am

If you wanted to make Artix von Krieger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_z3N3liEA) in DnD 5e, would you be able to do so? If so, how?

A Paladin of Devotion with a few levels in Shadow Sorcerer. "Warrior fighting against his destiny to cast the world in darkness" is a completely valid character concept. It's actually pretty easy to make something resembling him, but in 5e, the classes aren't as customizable as in earlier editions and Pathfinder, so a mechanically perfect match would require homebrewing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 21, 2018, 08:14:48 am

Had our yearly Halloween session. Mansions were explored. Giant beetles were fought. Sacrificed babies were discovered. I was mind controlled into pummeling another party member into unconsciousness.

It went well!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 21, 2018, 10:48:10 am

I did not plan on running a Halloween session but I guess that's what I'm going to end up doing.

First session of Shadows Over Sol is tomorrow. It'll probably be mostly character creation and then a bit of RP and investigation.

The second session, two days before Halloween, will involve the PCs' first experience with a gengineered killing machine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 21, 2018, 01:50:59 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 21, 2018, 07:26:46 am

Quote from: Andres on October 21, 2018, 05:54:30 am

If you wanted to make Artix von Krieger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_z3N3liEA) in DnD 5e, would you be able to do so? If so, how?

Well, first up, (since he is clearly fighting skeletal mages here) you are going to have to arm him with something OTHER than that pig sticker he is waving around. Bladed weapons do half-damage to skeletal enemies. I would personally suggest a mace of disruption, but that's just me.

It's actually the other way around for skeletons. They have no resistances, but they're vulnerable to bludgeoning. So a sword would do just fine, but a mace would do better, though it's not required.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 22, 2018, 07:06:32 pm

Well, that didn't last long. Of the five people I had lined up, only one made it.

Please, people, go to an event if you RSVP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 22, 2018, 08:25:40 pm

i've been running The Sprawl for both irl and online friends

today i evoked actual emotional response from one player and thus i have concluded i have succeeded in GMing and may move on to bigger, better things
edit: also i'm gonna be playing a wod game for the first time and am moderately looking forward to it but cant pick between a hunter or a vampire, i'm leaning hunter

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 22, 2018, 08:38:14 pm

Mixing WoD lines isn't recommended. Is this something your GM (or whatever it's called for this line) called out as being okay?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 22, 2018, 08:42:26 pm

yea, he's doing some balancing around the three lines we're using to make them Not Broken in a mixed party. i don't blame him, since hunter vampire and werewolf are like the closest to the same power balance and even they need some tweaking

trust me if balance wasn't an issue i'd be popping some fuckin demon up in here but alas

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 22, 2018, 10:40:19 pm

Aren't humans way less powerful in general than vampires? Aren't werewolves like, scary powerful compared to vampires?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 23, 2018, 05:34:45 am

That's rather dependent on how the storyteller handles things, I ran a human that embarrassed the hell out of both vampires and werewolves, but that was due to almost Old Man Henderson level backstory stuff (well, not really, I actually wrote everything out, it wasn't hundreds of pages, and my storyteller actually read and okayed everything and held me to what was written.)

If the storyteller plays everything exactly according to the books, werewolf and vampire are fairly close, but humans are terrifyingly weak (except full-fledged hunters).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 23, 2018, 05:45:32 am

I love how these systems overlook the obvious;

In a universe where these creatures are so powerful, and their food so weak in comparison, there is no check or balance against a vampire hegemony, or a werewolf superpack (lol) running the whole damn world.

Since humans manage to somehow stay on top, there *HAS* to be an elite caste of human, otherwise the narrative structure lacks sufficient tension to have suspension of disbelief.

So, where is the "super human" demographic in these universes?
*crickets*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 23, 2018, 05:58:37 am

True Faith Hunters, generally.  But they're incredibly rare, and I'm pretty sure they had some ridiculous restrictions.  It's been like fifteen years tho' so my memory is a bit hazy, I also never owned Hunter, just Masquerade and Apocalypse.

My character bypassed all of that by having a monitor attached to his pacemaker that alerted the DoD when he was in danger, which would of course lead to serious problems for the silly hidden groups of supernatural creatures.  After all, having their whereabouts broadcast to the whole world is universally bad for those groups.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 23, 2018, 06:00:38 am

Possibly the vampires and werewolves are kept in check by plucky bands of unlikely heroes?

Or crime-solving adolescents and their talking pet animal side-kick?

Or maybe just by murderhobos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 23, 2018, 06:24:11 am

Quote from: wierd on October 23, 2018, 05:45:32 am

I love how these systems overlook the obvious;

In a universe where these creatures are so powerful, and their food so weak in comparison, there is no check or balance against a vampire hegemony, or a werewolf superpack (lol) running the whole damn world.

Since humans manage to somehow stay on top, there *HAS* to be an elite caste of human, otherwise the narrative structure lacks sufficient tension to have suspension of disbelief.

So, where is the "super human" demographic in these universes?
*crickets*

Well, setting aside the large subset of those settings (including the WoD Vampire games) where the supernaturals do rule the world and domesticate humans into doing whatever they want us doing without requiring their constant attention, the super human demographic is usually just normal humans. You don't need an "elite caste" when you have numbers and the capacity to effectively coordinate them, and the majority of urban fantasy posits supernaturals that are relatively rare and usually isolated.

There's also a question of incentive. Vampires in particular are notorious for being deeply insecure in many settings, WoD included, and hunting is a way of showing their superiority and place in the hierarchy and so forth; a people farm would provide them with blood, sure, but not prestige or entertainment. Mages and to some extent Werewolves from the same setting don't necessarily want anything from humans that would require outright ruling them anyway.

Lastly, of course, the biggest obstacle most of the overtly predatory supernaturals face is each other; in many cases the prospect of world domination is administratively untenable for any subset of them small enough to be stable, in part since they're written primarily to accommodate 3-5 person gaming groups being significant.

All of this points to being the secret rulers of a humanity overtly controlled by the human puppets of the supernaturals, which is the baseline assumption for a lot of these games anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 23, 2018, 06:29:05 am

In this last case, which I can indeed see, there would still be underground guerilla like outfits.

Depending on their level of sophistication, they would be able to produce superhumans of varying degrees. (Human inocculated with special intestinal flora that constantly secretes garlic compounds, for instance. Sure, they smell horrible all the time, but they are totally toxic to vampires-- etc.) Perhaps even with agendas toward covertly converting large demographics of the population into such "variable superhumans". (Introduce their new transgenic lactobacillus into the local drinking water, AFTER the treatment system... et al.)

I really dont see these being demonstrated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 23, 2018, 06:36:52 am

I can see it now: Raised from a young age, fed only on holy water, sacramental wine and communion crackers, the Catholic Crusader comes to purge the unclean from God's sight!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 23, 2018, 06:41:02 am

Less that, more

"Holy shit-- Did that guy just FLY!?"
(Gets grabbed from behind and pulled into a dark alleyway)

[shadowy figure]
"Listen. If you know what is good for you, you will say nothing about what you just saw."

[shocked guy]
What are you talking about?! That guy just ripped that chick's throat out, and literally FLEW OFF! That is some whack shit!

[SF]
"Look, those things? they OWN the cops. They OWN the government. If you go blabbing, they WILL erase you. Just like there will be no news about this death in the paper tomorrow."

[SG]
How the hell do you know so much about this shit?

[SF]
We secretly oppose them. Now-- Either go home, and forget you ever saw what you just saw tonight-- OR, come with me if you want to do something about it, because the cops wont do shit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 23, 2018, 06:50:47 am

The Hunters are those "super humans" in WoD, at least those that join the Conspiracies. The Ascending Ones do alchemical drugs that temporarily give them superhuman abilities, the Cheiron Group sticks monster parts into their operatives for the same, Aegis Kai Doru wields ancient relics, and so on.

Even without the powers, though, the Hunters' primary advantage is their unity. Vampires, for instance don't rule the world because they have too much internal strife to actually work together or decide who of them should be the highest ruler.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 23, 2018, 07:03:49 am

The need to operate in secret means that they would be suspicious of incorporating new members. This means that while there would be some very powerful and influential groups, there would also be countless other local groups of far less renown, all operating in strict secrecy, and thus unknown to each other.

EG, a group could form when 2 hunting (as in, deer/elk/other) buddies witness a werewolf totally shred the fuck out of a moose they were getting ready to shoot, and then decide to start their own group.  They would not have access to many resources, and their group would necessarily be small-- but they would have goals towards finding out about the creatures, and how to oppose them, which would include approaching and recruiting specialists to improve their capacities to do so.

Depending on who they approach, and how successful they are (perhaps they get the PhD student specializing in proteomics, and synthetic protein synthesis, who has access to the university equipment for the PhD project), they could gain "untested, likely very dangerous" capabilities as a group.


The number of potential adaptations would be alarmingly diverse, but each group would all think they are the only ones, except in rare circumstances where they meet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on October 23, 2018, 07:22:43 am

Good points, certainly, but these things also run on the dramatic.  hunter groups meet -all the time- because when several groups all have a very niche focus, they find each other just out of dramatic necessity, and then those two hunters and a PhD student meet up with a proper group of hunters, or join up to form a proper group or whatever.

Drama demands it!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 23, 2018, 07:32:12 am

it's also old world of darkness so like
hunters have their Own Magic it's just kind of shit in comparison to the ability to turn someone into a chair or turn into a wolfman

but yknow, i got a gun and judge powers so i'm sure i'll be just fine
also yeah literally the exact 'super humans' you're on about is literally just Hunter: The Reckoning and to a far, far lesser extent Hunter: The Vigil, wherein they're blessed with spooky fucking pseudo magic/supernatural power and told to INHERIT THE EARTH and TAKE BACK THE NIGHT etc though hunters are so spread out and sparse that there's not really any coordinated takes on what that means beyond your own cells in cities, which are almost always groups of Imbued (hunters) who all got Woke together in the same incident.

so there are some hunters who honest to god want to help any monsters they can and see the good in the ones that have it, and there are the standard KILL EM ALL losers, etc. it varies a lot depending on your creed but only a few are outright Kill All Monsters Forever

for example i'm gonna be playing a judge creed, someone who believes in finding the guilty and the innocent and that there are monsters/supernaturals that aren't so bad and are relatively alright compared to some of the fucking corrupt, awful people given that yeah, most of society? it's run by the supernatural. vampire clans run cities and mages are constantly trying to do much of the same- they clash a bit- and vampires are frequently bogged down by infighting and politics

werewolves are like, furry hippies? not sure

demons are way too fucking busy for your stupid politics because the literal actual creatures from hell are making cults and our cult has to be way cooler than theirs also theirs is into human sacrifice and mass slaughter

demon is pretty fucking rad

one more edit: hunters are vaguely organized via a website called hunternet or some shit but they actively don't use it for 'meetups' or whatever because, well, it's on the internet and is as easy to browse as, say, this very forum so some vampire could happen to be posing as a hunter on the forum, meet up with you, and gun you down like the stupid bastard you are. however it's a general rule that most if not all hunters by a few weeks in know that other hunters exist and they're not the only Imbued out there hearing voices in their head or seeing words that don't exist

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 23, 2018, 02:53:23 pm

Now, if there are bullshit magical predators out there eating humans all the time, that naturally means that said humans will experience some form of selection pressure. People with habits that get them munched by vampires die, and fail to spread those habits. Maybe innate magic works in a similar way, and Hunters are basically an adaptation to deal with the predators. This means that as vampires continue to kill normal humans are a rate faster than hunters (cause it's easy), the number of hunters will gradually increase until all of humanity are hunters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 23, 2018, 05:24:52 pm

vampires don't even need to drain humans to death is the thing and most vampire groups frown on doing that because it causes Problems and is another body to hide

hunter is about being a thin line against the night and the nature of the 'power' of the Messengers is that it will inevitably drive it's users more and more into the hunt until they're walking furious soldiers against the night with barely any person left in them

a full Zeal virtue is just a killing machine, stoic wall, or complete black-and-white judge (it's usually killing machine)

a lot of hunters in fact turn out as bad as what they fight after a while because they start to see the rest of humanity as a bit more expendable if in the long run it will destroy the supernatural

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 24, 2018, 01:00:10 am

I really want to share my 2c about the WoD world but I have to point out I can't speak from authority.  The system is oddly open ended, with a liberal dose of Warhammer's "Everything is canon, not everything is true".  The NWoD and Vampire the Requiem books were... fairly consistent with each other, but the Mekhet/Ventrue/Gangrel clan books were dramatically not.  The edition I played (which I *still* don't know the official name for, ironically) has no canon backstory like Old WoD.  It's up the the Storyteller, if it even comes up at all.  Every clan and covenant have theories, legends, myths really.

Everyone claims Rasputin heheh

Or was that just an OWoD meme our group decided was canon?  It doesn't matter, NWoD avoids nailing such things down, leaving it to the Storyteller's discretion.  It's bizarre how they spent so many words on fluff without actually saying very much.

But enough rambling, I'm dodging the issue that my group - specifically, my group - cannot even begin to imagine a hunter and vampire working together.  Like, *maybe* a Blade 2 (3?) situation where they team up VERY temporarily, but a party?  Just... would never happen in the world we built.  Another multi-line NWoD game was discussed here a while back and, honestly, we still randomly bring it up occasionally to spark laughter.  No offense intended, it's that the idea is so insane to us.

And the idea of a werewolf tolerating the abomination against nature that a vampire represents...  It's somehow even more ridiculous.  There are even mechanics for that.  As vampires, werewolves were our bogeymen.  The reason we hide in our cities.  The two occasions we were forced (by the vampire elite) to travel, and we're talking merely a three hour drive, were nail-biting because the werewolves know.  I haven't read their book but they sensed us as rends in the fabric, based on our blood potencies (one of us was spiraling into diablery, so that went well). 

The only vampire character I lost was to a werewolf chasing down our car, ripping out a window, and reaching in to rip off my head.  Over the course of several rounds as we filled it with lead, and our driver floored the gas.

IDK I just want to second this:

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 22, 2018, 10:40:19 pm

Aren't humans way less powerful in general than vampires? Aren't werewolves like, scary powerful compared to vampires?

Though it's up to the storyteller *shrug*

And some humans did abduct us vampires at one point, when we took a moment out of deadly covenant politics to enjoy what little status we'd earned, at the local Rack (in this case, a vampire-run strip club in the suburb.  Still secret, but remote enough that any indiscretions were easily covered up.  We consumed a lot of drugs through our creepy ghouls, but Hunters had infiltrated the taxi network).

Humans have to gang up on vampires.  Vampires have to gang up on werewolves.  There are exceptions - elder vampires trump everything, and mages are so reality-warping absurd we basically banned them - but I just don't see how a mixed party could work.  Or, more importantly, would ever agree to work.

We were pulling some crazy powers towards the end of our Inferno (demon-possessed) game but balance wise it only seemed about equal to werewolves.  But the werewolves were crafted to terrify us so that's probably unfair.

And again it's much less concrete than in other systems, it's really up to the ST.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 24, 2018, 02:46:46 am

i'm relatively sure my group is just shifters with me as hunter but i'm unsure and it's not impossible to be a vampire that isn't a scumbag
my hunter is specifically very much after the assholes who manipulate and run society into the ground

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 24, 2018, 03:01:57 am

Oh definitely vampires don't have to be scumbags, but I was remembering the vampire adventuring in "daylight" in Ireland with a werewolf.
And being more amazed at the werewolf bit than the "it's cloudy and the vampire wears a robe" thing.

No the delicious bit about vampires is that nothing forces you to be a scumbag.  As a neonate vampire you start out mostly in control of your slavering beast, it only grows if you do the wrong things because you don't listen to your handlers.

Because there's a complex system of handlers, AKA the covenants, warning you to... take it slow.  You'll lose humanity, everyone does, but it should be a matter of years.  Don't throw it away - at least fight the beast.  That's basic survival, for the civilized vamps.  Other groups have other ideas.

And one of our party took no Mentor dots and so her sire was, well, of that other idea.
And the other in our party took no mentor dots and her sire walked out of an elevator into the daylight

And to survive the masquerade involves being jaded.  I learned that in the mouth of a werewolf.  My second and lasting vampire was much more careful.
Psychically destroyed, a mannequin of the Invictus, but careful.  Observant.
She liked cats.  That was the only thing she remembered, after literally ~60 years as a ghoul, and finally being rewarded with undeath.

She liked cats a lot, and struggled with basic human interaction.

I don't see playing such a character alongside a hunter, I just don't get it.  A fresh vampire I guess, but that raises questions of its own.  But again, I'm projecting my own group's interpretation of NWoD which is unironically as valid as anyone else's.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 24, 2018, 03:03:59 am

man from everything i've read i think i would not like nwod at all tbfh it just seems so much

... lamer

like sure hunter being straight up regular people instead of superhumans is a bit better but nwod's whole lore is not nearly as good

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 24, 2018, 03:12:12 am

I miss the Cain stuff and especially the vague constant threat of the antideluvians.

But the idea that the architect of reality is a meaningless machine that nobody understands?  Which isn't aloof, but actually viciously hunts aspects of itself which rebel?  And presumably any normal people who know too much?

I still like the dead-eyed angels of Disgaea 1.  "Repent." "Die." Soulless automata.
The mechanics of existence trying to destroy every wrong thing.  But they can be avoided.  Even disrupted, maybe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 24, 2018, 09:07:09 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 23, 2018, 02:53:23 pm

Now, if there are bullshit magical predators out there eating humans all the time, that naturally means that said humans will experience some form of selection pressure. People with habits that get them munched by vampires die, and fail to spread those habits. Maybe innate magic works in a similar way, and Hunters are basically an adaptation to deal with the predators. This means that as vampires continue to kill normal humans are a rate faster than hunters (cause it's easy), the number of hunters will gradually increase until all of humanity are hunters.

This presumes a relationship of natural predator and natural prey. Whereas a relationship of shepherd and cattle, well... The tasty sheep haven't died out yet from all the eating.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 24, 2018, 10:58:09 am

Hahahahaha. As if vampires are that smart.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 24, 2018, 11:41:14 am

I mean, there's a specific merit (upgradeable feat) for keeping a "herd"...  Which can mean a lot of things depending on what your other powers are.  A Mekhet might just know a particularly secluded area where nobody asks any questions, while a Ventrue might literally have a herd of brainwashed abductees nobody will ever look for (thanks to dominate, possibly even rewriting memories).

Vampires kinda need to be smart, because they have to live in cities without angering the local law.  Both human law or vampire law.  Flaunting either gets them true-dead fast.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 24, 2018, 11:55:51 am

Meh.  The animate corpses aren't any smarter than normal humans, they just get to stick around longer and use silly special powers, if they aren't discovered and killed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 24, 2018, 12:47:42 pm

Idea for WoD adventure: Set in Florida, you need to clean up after Florida Man, who is actually a rogue vampire

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 02:50:11 pm

I wouldn't make him a vampire. I'd make him some sort of body-snatching spirit that possesses someone else in the state whenever he dies. The protagonists can temporarily inconvenience him, but cannot easily defeat him completely: as long as there is a Florida, there is a Florida Man.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 24, 2018, 03:01:07 pm

There's actually a book for Slashers.  If they die but you take your eye off the body, they can come back :-X
It's basically "Humans can't generally reach 0 morality.  what if they could though"

It's sorta like a vampire reaching 0 humanity and surrendering to the beast, except there is no beast, it's just a human so evil they gain traditional horror movie powers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 03:05:37 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 02:50:11 pm

I wouldn't make him a vampire. I'd make him some sort of body-snatching spirit that possesses someone else in the state whenever he dies. The protagonists can temporarily inconvenience him, but cannot easily defeat him completely: as long as there is a Florida, there is a Florida Man.

Run it. I'd play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 24, 2018, 03:08:20 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 03:05:37 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 02:50:11 pm

I wouldn't make him a vampire. I'd make him some sort of body-snatching spirit that possesses someone else in the state whenever he dies. The protagonists can temporarily inconvenience him, but cannot easily defeat him completely: as long as there is a Florida, there is a Florida Man.

Run it. I'd play.

Yiss

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 24, 2018, 03:14:29 pm

vampires are almost always smarter than humans but are, crucially, weighed down by their hubris as a whole (long lived, apex predator, nigh unkillable) and oft underestimate

granted, the masquerade exists for a good reason: they are all aware that if they went public humanity COULD eradicate them like they almost did in the middle ages, so a good portion of vampire society is dedicated to making sure no one breaks the masquerade and if it is broken, killing witnesses and perpetrators.

otherwise the relationship is effectively sheparding cattle with some of the not-awful vampires wanting more to protect humanity than rule it, etc.

anyway nwod sucks because it throws out the metaplot of 90% of wod and replaces the themes of Oh God The World Might End, Soon with... ehh??? the god-machine is a dumb concept and it replacing the actually pretty good writing of demon the fallen sucks ass

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 24, 2018, 03:16:30 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on October 24, 2018, 03:14:29 pm

vampires are almost always smarter than humans but are, crucially, weighed down by their hubris as a whole

SSSHHHHH! Don't let them know that we know!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 04:19:16 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 24, 2018, 03:01:07 pm

There's actually a book for Slashers.  If they die but you take your eye off the body, they can come back :-X
It's basically "Humans can't generally reach 0 morality.  what if they could though"

It's sorta like a vampire reaching 0 humanity and surrendering to the beast, except there is no beast, it's just a human so evil they gain traditional horror movie powers.

No, Slashers are Hunters who have gone bad, and they can even have a positive Integrity if there are lines even they won't cross. Regular mortals can hit 0 Integrity, but they'll just be irredeemably evil and deranged, no stronger than usual.

Quote from: scriver on October 24, 2018, 03:08:20 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 03:05:37 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 02:50:11 pm

I wouldn't make him a vampire. I'd make him some sort of body-snatching spirit that possesses someone else in the state whenever he dies. The protagonists can temporarily inconvenience him, but cannot easily defeat him completely: as long as there is a Florida, there is a Florida Man.

Run it. I'd play.

Yiss

I could retry running a game if there was enough interest and the times matched, but that's a difficult goal to reach.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 24, 2018, 04:31:17 pm

No, there was definitely an entire sourcebook on Slashers as horror movie villain humans, people who went so bad the WoD seeped into them and gave them powers. The term was just also used for hunters who went off the deep end.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 24, 2018, 04:33:25 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 04:19:16 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 24, 2018, 03:08:20 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 03:05:37 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 02:50:11 pm

I wouldn't make him a vampire. I'd make him some sort of body-snatching spirit that possesses someone else in the state whenever he dies. The protagonists can temporarily inconvenience him, but cannot easily defeat him completely: as long as there is a Florida, there is a Florida Man.

Run it. I'd play.

Yiss

I could retry running a game if there was enough interest and the times matched, but that's a difficult goal to reach.

I'm always interested, and iirc if you're Finnish and I'm Swedish so there's a good chance of compatible timezones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 04:38:50 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 24, 2018, 04:31:17 pm

No, there was definitely an entire sourcebook on Slashers as horror movie villain humans, people who went so bad the WoD seeped into them and gave them powers. The term was just also used for hunters who went off the deep end.

That sourcebook is named World of Darkness: Slasher, but it is in fact a supplement for Hunter: the Vigil and explicitly names the movie villain -type slashers as Hunters who've lost it worse than usual. Though I suppose the same event that drives a mortal into taking up the Vigil could also be the event that drives them to take up an Undertaking.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 24, 2018, 04:57:43 pm

Now I'm imagining all hunters as pro wrestlers. Great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 05:11:23 pm

I don't suppose anyone has a handy list of WoD material, do they? I have a...source...of RPG rulebooks but the WoD section is absolutely massive and I have no idea which are game books, or if there's a basic core book that all the different games run off of, or what.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on October 24, 2018, 05:26:44 pm

I might have to ask you for that source.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 05:38:15 pm

Hey now, I asked first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 24, 2018, 05:56:49 pm

If you're seeking ill-gotten booty obtained on the high seas, keep it to PMs please. No links in the thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 24, 2018, 06:14:03 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 05:11:23 pm

I don't suppose anyone has a handy list of WoD material, do they? I have a...source...of RPG rulebooks but the WoD section is absolutely massive and I have no idea which are game books, or if there's a basic core book that all the different games run off of, or what.

I've played WoD literally once (Genius the Transgression no less).  For what was new world of darkness (still is?), I have a 2004 book just titled "The World of Darkness".  Blue black and white cover of a impressionist-style guy on a rainy street or something.  Its a core book that just details the basics of making mere mortal characters.  As I understand it, making other various "X the Y-ing" characters involved making half a mortal character and partway through adding the relevant template to them.  So Vampire the Requiem gives you a vampire template that gives your character so-and-so traits and replaces such and such attributes (like morality), and then get some cool vampire powers or whatever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 06:18:52 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on October 24, 2018, 05:56:49 pm

If you're seeking ill-gotten booty obtained on the high seas, keep it to PMs please. No links in the thread.

Don't worry, I wasn't intending to throw up links to anything like that in public.

I just don't know where to begin. My source has clanbooks and core books and sourcebooks and I-don't-even-know books a-plenty, and it's overwhelming for someone who's only experience with the World of Darkness is a playthrough of Bloodlines.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 24, 2018, 06:19:37 pm

here's the bamboozle

there's two lines, owod and nwod, and each is splintered into a handful of gamelines themselves that cover splats for each individual game. in owod there's
hunter: the reckoning
vampire: the masquerade
werewolf: the apocalypse
mage: the ascension
demon: the fallen
changeling: the dreaming
mummy: the bad game
opheus
and wraith: the oblivion. this is just owod and there are extra books for each! i'd recommend looking up whatever one catches your eye the most.

also theres kindred of the east but frankly i have no fucking idea what that one is even about

if you're looking to play vampire, grab masquerade, read through, and once you've decided on a clan that interests you grab their splat

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 24, 2018, 06:25:47 pm

4chan saves the day. (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/World_of_Darkness)

Also you can tool around on RPG Geek. (https://rpggeek.com/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype=rpgfamily&q=world+of+darkness&B1=Go) Ignore Mind's Eye. Once you pick a family (oWoD/nWoD) and then a related RPG (Dark Ages, frex), you can tell it to only show core books for that line.

Vampire 5th seems to be a new thing outside of the o/nWoD split.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 25, 2018, 04:18:49 am

So the 5th ed group I was talking about before was planned to start up some time in October, since the DM was going to be moving into town and would set up after he got settled in.

I've gotten a chance to meet the fellow now, and learned that the campaign start is going to be pushed back a bit because moving is moving and never finishes as quickly or as cleanly as you expect.

Looks like we're probably going to be playing with core books only, so no pulling out SCAG feats on Xanathar classes to make a horrific abomination of munchkinnery. Oh well. Time to narrow my scope for character ideas.

He's slightly inexperienced as a DM, but that's probably why he's okay with hosting a bunch of new players. Also seems like a pretty nice guy, but that's probably due to his inexperience as a DM. He is coming to terms with how incredibly determined players are to do everything except what you want them to do.

He was also talking a bit about trying to tie together two different campaigns he's running, so our different parties would be indirectly touching upon (and interfering with) the other's adventure. Personally, I think that sounds like a massive pipe dream and a catastrophic invitation for trouble, but hey!


Anyways, yeah... Fun and silly things to do in base game... Might try my hand at a grappler, but I want to have some ideas ready for rogue types and healer types that I can run with on the off chance that nobody else picks a support class (which is entirely likely on a good day, and I suspect even more likely with a bunch of starry-eyed newbies).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 25, 2018, 05:02:27 am

I like being bards, jack of all trades. And with sufficient investment, master of all. Someone ran a level 20 Rocks Fall campaign and I made a female celestial bard with all the toys. Status negators, teleport items, status inflictors, defensive tools, a dope ass rapier she never had to touch to kill you with, great armor that allowed spellcasting, and a flute.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 25, 2018, 05:08:51 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 25, 2018, 05:02:27 am

and a flute.

"This one time, at bard camp..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 25, 2018, 05:12:09 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 25, 2018, 05:08:51 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 25, 2018, 05:02:27 am

and a flute.

"This one time, at bard camp..."

"...I raped and killed a demon. Because level 20 Celestial bard played by a guy named after a Nazi."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 25, 2018, 09:58:18 am

Looking at a Tempest Cleric grappler. There are a few things you can do here, but it's all going to be pretty feat-intensive...

The class itself has some fun things to offer the overall grappler archetype. There's heavy armor proficiency from the get-go, a reactive shock ability that uses a DEX save (meaning that if you've taken the Grappler feat you can restrain someone and force them to make such saves at a disadvantage), Destructive Wrath is a pretty decent usage of CD in general (and pretty hilarious with Call Lightning), and you can apply 1d8 (later 2d8) thunder damage to any weapon attack, which technically includes kicking (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951895470967672832?lang=en) one of the two grappled opponents you're keeping your hands full with. Additionally you get the option when dealing lightning damage to shove the target 10' away from you, which can be useful when you've dragged someone to within 10' of a precipice or just want enemy number 3 to piss off.

Clerics also get the lovely Enhance Ability spell to make strength checks at an advantage, Spiritual Weapon to smack whoever you've cornered, and more tasty bits.


The problem of course is that you'd like to have War Caster as a minimum, and both Grappler and Shield Master would be great to have on top of that. There's also no clean way of getting Expertise, but I suppose if you wanted to focus on single-target stuff you could dip into rogue and pick up sneak attack so you could grab 'n' stab someone with a thunderous rapier after grappling and shoving them to get advantage. It'd be lovely to have something like Create Bonfire (if/when you're not using Enhance Ability) to use with Grappler, since you could just pin someone in the fire to make them keep taking disadvantaged DEX saves while being toasted like a Manmallow (and you can keep attacking them with other things so long as you maintain concentration!)... But that would involve dipping into probably Druid, since the Magic Initiate feat is yet another feat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on October 25, 2018, 10:20:39 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 25, 2018, 09:58:18 am

Looking at a Tempest Cleric grappler. There are a few things you can do here, but it's all going to be pretty feat-intensive...

The class itself has some fun things to offer the overall grappler archetype. There's heavy armor proficiency from the get-go, a reactive shock ability that uses a DEX save (meaning that if you've taken the Grappler feat you can restrain someone and force them to make such saves at a disadvantage), Destructive Wrath is a pretty decent usage of CD in general (and pretty hilarious with Call Lightning), and you can apply 1d8 (later 2d8) thunder damage to any weapon attack, which technically includes kicking (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951895470967672832?lang=en) one of the two grappled opponents you're keeping your hands full with. Additionally you get the option when dealing lightning damage to shove the target 10' away from you, which can be useful when you've dragged someone to within 10' of a precipice or just want enemy number 3 to piss off.

Clerics also get the lovely Enhance Ability spell to make strength checks at an advantage, Spiritual Weapon to smack whoever you've cornered, and more tasty bits.


The problem of course is that you'd like to have War Caster as a minimum, and both Grappler and Shield Master would be great to have on top of that. There's also no clean way of getting Expertise, but I suppose if you wanted to focus on single-target stuff you could dip into rogue and pick up sneak attack so you could grab 'n' stab someone with a thunderous rapier after grappling and shoving them to get advantage. It'd be lovely to have something like Create Bonfire (if/when you're not using Enhance Ability) to use with Grappler, since you could just pin someone in the fire to make them keep taking disadvantaged DEX saves while being toasted like a Manmallow (and you can keep attacking them with other things so long as you maintain concentration!)... But that would involve dipping into probably Druid, since the Magic Initiate feat is yet another feat.

you're going too wide. if you want to Tempest grapple people to death, do that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 25, 2018, 11:00:50 am

Yeh, but how does one make the grapplest Tempest ever to shocker someone? Going for the Grappler feat first means you get attack advantage on grappled opponents, and can pin them to put their DEX saves at a disadvantage. But you won't have War Caster to either secure your concentration buffs or to make the most out of spells while in the thick of the fight. Going for Shield Master lets you grapple and slam someone into the ground in one turn, but you're then left with just unarmed attacks after grappling one dude (there also doesn't seem to be much of a consensus regarding War Caster and making somatic gestures when you're holding onto a creature, since War Caster only specifies that it lets you ignore weapons and shields when determining "free hands"). Grab War Caster first, and you'll be able to hold onto your spells and use more of them, but... You won't be as able to grapple people into a good spot for getting the most out of those spells.

Clerics don't get extra attacks either, which is a bummer. The grappler archetype has fascinated me through multiple editions (and homebrews), but there's always the case for optimization, heh.


Looking at spell lists though, apparently Bonfire isn't even in the "base" list, so bah on that for now. Shame. The idea of "burning witches at the hug" tickled me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 25, 2018, 11:23:24 am

Quote from: scriver on October 24, 2018, 04:33:25 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 04:19:16 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 24, 2018, 03:08:20 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 24, 2018, 03:05:37 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 24, 2018, 02:50:11 pm

I wouldn't make him a vampire. I'd make him some sort of body-snatching spirit that possesses someone else in the state whenever he dies. The protagonists can temporarily inconvenience him, but cannot easily defeat him completely: as long as there is a Florida, there is a Florida Man.

Run it. I'd play.

Yiss

I could retry running a game if there was enough interest and the times matched, but that's a difficult goal to reach.

I'm always interested, and iirc if you're Finnish and I'm Swedish so there's a good chance of compatible timezones.

Ah, hell, let's do it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172460.msg7876896#msg7876896).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Andres on October 25, 2018, 03:44:59 pm

When it comes to dnd spells that have a range of "self", can you target other people if they've eaten a part of your body and are in the middle of digesting it? Hair, for instance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 25, 2018, 04:04:59 pm

No. If you remove a part of your body, it's no longer a part of "you". D&D magic isn't particularly sympathetic, bar a couple specific spells.

In 3.5e and Pathfinder, if you want to affect someone else with a self-range spell, the solution is to craft a potion with the effect. In 5e, there aren't any particularly deep rules for crafting so it requires homebrew.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 25, 2018, 04:33:57 pm

The closest you could get otherwise would be to be a cleric of trickery, summon an illusory duplicate, move it so it inhabits the same space as a creature, then cast a self-targeting spell from its position.

Which still wouldn't hit the other creature unless you're REALLY good at lawyering and your DM is REALLY impressionable.



Just looked at Shadow Monk (still on grapplers) and some of the ridiculousness that it can pull off, potentially with a few levels of different dips... Free teleport into the shadows behind someone, run up and then suplex them into the dirt with advantage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 25, 2018, 05:14:02 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 25, 2018, 04:04:59 pm

No. If you remove a part of your body, it's no longer a part of "you". D&D magic isn't particularly sympathetic, bar a couple specific spells.

In 3.5e and Pathfinder, if you want to affect someone else with a self-range spell, the solution is to craft a potion with the effect. In 5e, there aren't any particularly deep rules for crafting so it requires homebrew.

Yeah, and 3.5 potions can only contain spells of third level or less (though they can be of high caster level, which helps duration or potency usually)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 25, 2018, 07:34:55 pm

Send help. My morbid curiosity has been piqued. (http://www.lulu.com/shop/joseph-oberlander/pm-agestorm-age-master/hardcover/product-22890091.html)

That preview...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 25, 2018, 08:41:32 pm

Quote

The same Perfectly-Balanced Table-Top Rpg. Game Module but Summarized-Up and not Wholly there and Left with a Lushful Camp@ign Maneuver and Flash-Backs of Parts of The Game with Spaces for Beautiful Art done by You and/or a Friend as a Picturesque/Pretty Hobby Collection of Perfectly-Balanced Aspiring Campaigning Imagery for your Fanning

I have zero idea what this person is trying to say.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 25, 2018, 09:25:52 pm

Its call of cthulu but written in the perspective of cthulu instead of the humans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on October 25, 2018, 09:31:56 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 25, 2018, 08:41:32 pm

Quote

The same Perfectly-Balanced Table-Top Rpg. Game Module but Summarized-Up and not Wholly there and Left with a Lushful Camp@ign Maneuver and Flash-Backs of Parts of The Game with Spaces for Beautiful Art done by You and/or a Friend as a Picturesque/Pretty Hobby Collection of Perfectly-Balanced Aspiring Campaigning Imagery for your Fanning

I have zero idea what this person is trying to say.

It has rules, a summary of a game module, a campaign with gratuitous flash backs, and loads of blank paper to draw on.  I think?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 26, 2018, 06:16:04 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 25, 2018, 05:14:02 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 25, 2018, 04:04:59 pm

No. If you remove a part of your body, it's no longer a part of "you". D&D magic isn't particularly sympathetic, bar a couple specific spells.

In 3.5e and Pathfinder, if you want to affect someone else with a self-range spell, the solution is to craft a potion with the effect. In 5e, there aren't any particularly deep rules for crafting so it requires homebrew.

Yeah, and 3.5 potions can only contain spells of third level or less (though they can be of high caster level, which helps duration or potency usually)

Actually, personal range spells can't be brewed as potions.

Creating Potions
The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 26, 2018, 07:12:06 am

If a warlock's spell slots cap out at 5th level, and to cast a spell you need a slot whose level is at least the same level of the spell...

Why are there 9th-level spells on the Warlock spell list?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 26, 2018, 07:55:24 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 26, 2018, 07:12:06 am

If a warlock's spell slots cap out at 5th level, and to cast a spell you need a slot whose level is at least the same level of the spell...

Why are there 9th-level spells on the Warlock spell list?

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Warlock#toc_12

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 26, 2018, 08:05:40 am

anyone know if the infinity tabletop (not the wargame, but the rpg) is any good, i have the pdf here and might crack 'er open
also unironically give me suggestions for cool monsters to have in a Monster of the Week thread

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 26, 2018, 08:12:21 am

Quote from: Jimmy on October 26, 2018, 06:16:04 am

Actually, personal range spells can't be brewed as potions.

Creating Potions

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions)

Derp you're right, I was sorta wondering about that but I was posting busy.  That's why you can't make a potion of 3.5's True Strike or some other useful things, self-spells are exclusively for casters (or wondrous item effects, in specific cases, probably). 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 26, 2018, 09:49:46 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 26, 2018, 07:55:24 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 26, 2018, 07:12:06 am

If a warlock's spell slots cap out at 5th level, and to cast a spell you need a slot whose level is at least the same level of the spell...

Why are there 9th-level spells on the Warlock spell list?

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Warlock#toc_12

Ah, of course, the "spells that are not spells but are still spells". I'd completely forgotten about those.

Warlock still seems fairly cobbled-together to me... A fair whack of the invocations are absolutely dreadful investments, but then in the same breath you can also gain permanent 120' darkvision that penetrates magical darkness.

Xanathar tries desperately to give the class some love, and accomplishes a fair deal (while opening up for some pretty hilarious melee damage via Hexblade), but then has little design oddities like "...roll d6, if it rolls 4 or higher the enemy's attack misses", because apparently flipping coins is for losers.

The capstone is also pretty bizarre. You can get the spell-restoring effects of a 1-hour short rest by using 1 minute, once a day. I suppose there might be high-octane campaigns where you'll be able to spare a minute, while an hour would simply too much time lost, buuut... Yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 26, 2018, 10:06:28 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 26, 2018, 07:55:24 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 26, 2018, 07:12:06 am

If a warlock's spell slots cap out at 5th level, and to cast a spell you need a slot whose level is at least the same level of the spell...

Why are there 9th-level spells on the Warlock spell list?

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Warlock#toc_12

Does it mean I can only use one of these spells per day, or each one if these spells once per say?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 26, 2018, 10:16:59 am

Quote from: scriver on October 26, 2018, 10:06:28 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 26, 2018, 07:55:24 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 26, 2018, 07:12:06 am

If a warlock's spell slots cap out at 5th level, and to cast a spell you need a slot whose level is at least the same level of the spell...

Why are there 9th-level spells on the Warlock spell list?

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Warlock#toc_12

Does it mean I can only use one of these spells per day, or each one if these spells once per say?

Each one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 26, 2018, 12:33:04 pm

Hey, here's a gimmick for ya... Hunter 11/Assassin 3. Take the Sharpshooter feat for the best effect.

We'll be using a longbow for this since it has the longest range and the potential +2 maximum damage of a heavy crossbow's d10 doesn't really justify taking an extra feat just to use it (crossbow mastery).


Sneaky-sneaky around until you come within 600 feet of your target without alerting them. Shouldn't be too difficult, all things considered. Then, use the hunter's Volley attack.

One attack action to roll ranged attacks against every target within a 10' radius of a point you select, plus an extra attack against one other enemy within 5' of one of the ones you hit in that 20' circle (Horde Breaker). Make all attack rolls with advantage and ignore half and three-quarters cover (this includes the bodies of other creatures standing in the way). On every hit, roll critical damage. One creature takes an extra 4d6 sneak attack damage (critical damage roll, remember). If you dip two levels into Fighter, you can do this twice.

After using your Action(s), you may use the rogue's cunning action to hide yourself again as a bonus action. Which, seeing as you're 500-600 feet away, shouldn't be too difficult.

Finally, observe the DM's reaction to your pincushioning an entire encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 27, 2018, 02:28:55 pm

Boy the things Xanathar's Lost Notes to Everything Else are poorly designed. With the Dragoon, if I choose the blowgun as a cavalry weapon and wear studded leather, at 5th level I have 3 attacks with a blowgun per round for +13 attack roll and each hit does 1d8+11 damage, or +8 attack with 1d8+21 damage with Sharpshooter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 27, 2018, 03:14:47 pm

That's what a slightly edited and published thing that's basically dandwiki gets you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 12:38:04 pm

We're doing another official Forgotten Realms module that was originally 2nd edition, these classics are fun!  We're more used to homebrew settings so it's still a little strange, both for the players and our GMs.  They really do plan for a lot of player actions.

We're in Watersdeep, city south of Neverwinter that's run by a secretive noble oligarchy established by some crazy wizard ages ago.  I feel like he established the city to keep roaming monsters away from his tower.  This is the city where one tavern has the Yawning Portal in the center, a mile-deep pit leading into a dungeon crawl.  In 2nd edition there was even a stairway, and trolls would randomly climb up and throw stirges at people, but the Level 15 Fighter tavernkeeper apparently came to his senses and made the pit smooth.  He still throws corpses in there after gang fights though.

We met Volo, yeah THE Volo, but he hasn't written his book yet.  He offered us 10gp to find his missing friend.  His tall, beautiful friend with flowing auburn hair and impeccable fashion sense, who lives with Volo but hasn't been home in a while.  Since this module was presumably written in the 70's or early 80's, I feel like it's tastefully but really strongly hinting at something cute.

Spoiler: Discussion of the first chapter of nine apparently (click to show/hide)

Anyway it turns out to be related to a major gang war, there's a captured princeling, and hints of a vast underground treasure horde which are "categorically untrue".  We actually managed to treat the noble with some respect (fear, basically, the laws are very strict about interacting with nobles) and he's helping us out a bit.  Not to find the imaginary treasure, but the missing young man (who is apparently good friends with the princeling as well).

Being a bard is awesome.  I have prestidigitation, healing word, and social skills.  -2 Int and a rustic background, but ditziness just makes me more credible!  We managed to talk past two significant battles using a mix of intimidation and innocence, heehee.

In a stroke of accidental "genius", we even managed to combine two major battles by persuading the first group to lead us to the second.  Resolving the first encounter gave us half XP, then we got full XP on top of that when we were forced to fight!  involved fighting two balanced encounters at once but we pulled out a win, all according to kenkaku (we were fighting kenku)

Protip:  If a kenku, parrot-like mimic birdman, begs for its life in one stream of voice, it's because it heard someone beg for their life.  If it keeps cutting off sharply at the end, draw your own conclusion.
Protip:  Leaving a murderous gangster with a half-orc barbarian isn't technically murder, and requires no morality check.  Particularly if you and the paladin are checking out a totally cool secret door!

---

I hit level 4 :D  Now the tough call:
Do I just take 2 charisma, bringing me to 20?  Better saves for my spells like Faerie Fire and Hideous Laughter, and even better social rolls.
Or do I take Tavern Brawler because I was in a totally awesome bar fight with chairs flying through the air?  I got a lucky +2 STR, and this bring me to +1 CON, and this way I could be completely unarmed with my lute - total non-combatant - but then kick people for only ~2 less damage than my rapier.  Or hit them with random items!  I think I've talked myself into it, and CON is always good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 28, 2018, 02:41:26 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 12:38:04 pm

We're doing another official Forgotten Realms module that was originally 2nd edition, these classics are fun!  We're more used to homebrew settings so it's still a little strange, both for the players and our GMs.  They really do plan for a lot of player actions.

Are you sure it's a 2nd edition module? Because it sounds a lot like Waterdeep Dragon Heist, the newest 5th edition module (at least until it's sequel, Dungeon of the Mad Mage, comes out). Granted, your DM could be inserting a lot of 2nd edition material for all I know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 02:58:14 pm

I'm pretty sure.  The (supposed) treasure was (supposedly) built up by the princeling's father, when he was the Open Lord of Watersdeep.  No mention of dragons so far.
The impression I got is that it's a 5e-updated version of a 2e module, which seems to be pretty normal.  Our previous adventure in a dwarven mountain overrun by orcs was described the same way, originally 2e but updated through the years.

Specifically, apparently our current module had the troll appear in the tavern with no real explanation, when originally it would have taken the bizarre stairs which were present in 2e.

Also I really like my current character (:  She was one of the orc's prisoners in the dwarven stronghold, a seamstress, who became a 2nd level bard when my dwarven fighter died.  She's got a platonic/flirty hero-worship thing with the dragonborn paladin who rescued her, but also keeps insisting that the half-orc umm servant we recruited (when our sorcerer died) is officially princess of the tribe, since we killed all the rest (we didn't actually kill all the rest, but who cares).

She grew up in a icy village in the northern wastes, then almost starved to death as a captive of orcs, and now is cheerleader for a shiny paladin and strong female role model.  It's like a support dream come true

Edit:  Oh and Watersdeep, AKA not an icy subsistence village, was a nice RP time for her.  Specifically she learned the wonders of cloth-based clothing instead of seal leather, and fruit.  So much fruit.  She likes apples.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 28, 2018, 08:37:39 pm

Yeah, that's 100% Waterdeep Dragon Heist. And I'm pretty confident its not based on any specific module from 2e.

The orc mountain sounds like the Forge of Fury. That's an adaptation of material from 2e, but that's from the Tales of the Yawning Portal, which is almost entirely remade modules from earlier editions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 08:42:13 pm

Yeah, the GM kinda reached out to me and admitted something like that.
As players we avoid the modules for obvious reasons.

Sorry for the misconception.  It's better this way, though~

Edit: No spoilers, please, because I do link this thread to my group pretty often.

Honestly I'd rather have input on my character, the ditzy ice-land Folk Hero who's now a bardic cheerleader.

Even what she should mechanically take as a feat.  Still leaning towards Tavern Brawler - even though it's dumb, oOoO, I should probably take 20 CHA instead~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 04:15:14 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 08:42:13 pm

Even what she should mechanically take as a feat.  Still leaning towards Tavern Brawler - even though it's dumb, oOoO, I should probably take 20 CHA instead~

It's dumb, oOoO, you should probably take 20 CHA instead.

The grappling parts of Tavern Brawler aren't even that good from a grappling perspective, and are completely useless to a non-grappler. The unarmed damage die upgrade is nice if you plan on punching people a lot, which is the real reason grapplers might pick the feat up, but if you're not an extremely punchy character it's not going to do much either.

As for proficiency with improvised weapons, you already have proficiency with improvised objects that resemble weapons you're proficient with. I mean, this is technically a "GM's option", but I'm going to go ahead and assume that your particular GM isn't the kind who would say you can't use a lump of wood or table leg as a club (which you are proficient with) because it's not exactly the kind of lumpy wood that a club is designated as being.

One thing is trying to argue that the cool rock you picked up should be treated as a double-bladed scimitar, it's entirely another to say "this whacking stick is a whacking stick".


Basically the only thing you'd directly get out of that is proficiency with using specifically your lute as a weapon, and as a dabbling musician I can only scream silently at such a decision.


EDIT: If you really want to drive home the "cheerleader" role, you could potentially take something like Martial Adept and pick up a superiority die. There's no stat bonus attached to the feat (and 20 CHA really is quite nice), but you get access to things like Commanding Strike or Maneuvering Strike, which would let you play fangirl to the Dragopal by giving them more things to do with their reaction (there's also Rally, but it's a piddling amount of temporary hitpoints and temp HP doesn't stack with any other source of temp HP, of which there are many). As far as bar room brawl applicability is concerned, most maneuvers require only a "weapon attack", which includes unarmed strikes and throwing rocks/mugs at people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2018, 04:25:18 am

It's made of ironwood

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 04:30:26 am

Quote from: scriver on October 29, 2018, 04:25:18 am

It's made of ironwood

Druids do it best.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 29, 2018, 05:36:56 am

the only thing a druid will do is give you horrible woodland stds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:53:17 am

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on October 29, 2018, 05:36:56 am

the only thing a druid will do is give you horrible woodland stds

Not if they're level 10 or higher!

Remember; never have sex with anyone who isn't 10 yet.


EDIT: It's a shame that Conjure Animals is a concentration spell... Otherwise you could just summon 24 squirrels and then turn them all into elephants via Animal Shapes. As it stands, you'd need a friend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 08:00:57 am

Intentional misquoting ahead...

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:53:17 am

Remember; never have sex with anyone who isn't 10 yet.

EDIT: It's a shame that Conjure Animals is a concentration spell... Otherwise you could just summon 24 squirrels

Your level 10 squirrel golem idea needs a bit of work. Assuming they're 1/4 cr, you're still 4 below.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 29, 2018, 08:02:14 am

pro-tip mlg strat provided by me and my Friend

recipe: one wizard, one warlock, an unshakable bond of camaraderie
step one: floating disk
step two: levitate your warlock
step three: warlock gets on the disk
step four: fuckin surf that shit to the MOON, BABES

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 08:43:53 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 08:00:57 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:53:17 am

Remember; never have sex with anyone who isn't 10 yet.

EDIT: It's a shame that Conjure Animals is a concentration spell... Otherwise you could just summon 24 squirrels

Your level 10 squirrel golem idea needs a bit of work. Assuming they're 1/4 cr, you're still 4 below.

At base level, Conjure Animals summons 1/2/4/8 animals depending on CR. Cast using a 5th level slot the number doubles, cast at 7th (which is what I'd been planning around in my head, because I was trying to think of one druid doing all this and for some reason I was treating Animal Shapes as a level 9 spell... It's complicated, I don't pretend to know how my mind works) level it triples, and cast at 9th it quadruples. Using a 7th level slot for 3x the animals, 3 x 8 = 24. Although you're right, if we're going all out, we might as well use a 9th level slot for 32 animals.

And squirrels would probably be closer to a CR of 0, come to think of it... 1/4 CR includes stuff like wolves, giant owls, and... Velociraptors?


Okay, so, summon 32 velociraptors, that you then turn into CR 4 elephants.

...except that Animal Shapes apparently says "Large or smaller beast with a challenge rating no higher than 4", which is dumb because there aren't any CR 4 beasts that are smaller than Huge, unless you can somehow apply special templates to them or something? I don't know.

So that leaves us with 32 velociraptors, which we then turn into giant scorpions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:06:35 pm

How the fuck do four 1st levels defeat a pack of Velociraptors?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:11:52 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:06:35 pm

How the fuck do four 1st levels defeat a pack of Velociraptors?

They're size Tiny, so I think DnD velociraptors are actually compsognathuses... At best.

Still though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 01:27:01 pm

Velociraptors were that small in real life weren't they? Maybe on the big side of tiny or the small side of small. I think 5e removed the size categories smaller then tiny, so you see a lot of very small things like sprites in the category, but anything smaller then the half sized humanoids like goblins and halflings (which iirc includes velociraptors) is tiny.

Big raptors, like the Deinoynychus (the raptors seen in movies and sometimes mislabeled as a Velociraptor) are medium in D&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:28:11 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:11:52 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:06:35 pm

How the fuck do four 1st levels defeat a pack of Velociraptors?

They're size Tiny, so I think DnD velociraptors are actually compsognathuses... At best.

Still though.

I'm looking (http://chisaipete.github.io/bestiary/creatures/velociraptor) at the stats right now.  They're no pushovers, tiny or not.  Each of them can have as much HP as a level 1 fighter, and if at least two can gang up one guy that's four +4 attacks with advantage.  Should have no problem blending up the party one at a time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 29, 2018, 01:29:18 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:11:52 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:06:35 pm

How the fuck do four 1st levels defeat a pack of Velociraptors?

They're size Tiny, so I think DnD velociraptors are actually compsognathuses... At best.

Still though.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Vraptor-scale.png)

Giant death beast they ain't

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2018, 01:29:39 pm

Velociducktor

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 01:35:33 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:28:11 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:11:52 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:06:35 pm

How the fuck do four 1st levels defeat a pack of Velociraptors?

They're size Tiny, so I think DnD velociraptors are actually compsognathuses... At best.

Still though.

I'm looking (http://chisaipete.github.io/bestiary/creatures/velociraptor) at the stats right now.  They're no pushovers, tiny or not.  Each of them can have as much HP as a level 1 fighter, and if at least two can gang up one guy that's four +4 attacks with advantage.  Should have no problem blending up the party one at a time.

Keeping in mind the difficulty exp scaling from multiple enemies, three velociraptors would be considered a "hard" encounter for 4 first level party members (an assessment I'd agree with). Two would be considered an easy encounter (once again, I think I could agree with that.) For how strong they are on the offense they'll go down to an attack or two. If they get the drop on the party it could be dangerous if they go after the squishier members first, but the tougher and harder hitting members like a fighter or barbarian will make pretty short work of them. If the party strikes first the raptors are fucked as they get blasted away by ranged attacks and even melee with their relatively slow speed meaning the melee PCs can close and attack on the same turn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:38:17 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 29, 2018, 01:29:18 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:11:52 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:06:35 pm

How the fuck do four 1st levels defeat a pack of Velociraptors?

They're size Tiny, so I think DnD velociraptors are actually compsognathuses... At best.

Still though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Vraptor-scale.png)

Giant death beast they ain't

Never doubt a bird's capacity to be an asshole.


So Compy was roughly 1m in length (snout to tail tip), Velociraptor was 2m, and Deinonychus (which was apparently also what was being described in the book with the wrong name, and the film just kept the fraud going for source accuracy) is 3m.

Seems like a pretty good Tiny, Small, Medium progression to me.

Quote from: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 01:35:33 pm

Keeping in mind the difficulty exp scaling from multiple enemies, three velociraptors would be considered a "hard" encounter for 4 first level party members (an assessment I'd agree with). Two would be considered an easy encounter (once again, I think I could agree with that.) For how strong they are on the offense they'll go down to an attack or two. If they get the drop on the party it could be dangerous if they go after the squishier members first, but the tougher and harder hitting members like a fighter or barbarian will make pretty short work of them. If the party strikes first the raptors are fucked as they get blasted away by ranged attacks and even melee with their relatively slow speed meaning the melee PCs can close and attack on the same turn.

So, would you say it's still reasonable for a 5th-level character to be able to summon 8 of them, twice a day?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:40:35 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 01:35:33 pm

Keeping in mind the difficulty exp scaling from multiple enemies, three velociraptors would be considered a "hard" encounter for 4 first level party members (an assessment I'd agree with). Two would be considered an easy encounter (once again, I think I could agree with that.) For how strong they are on the offense they'll go down to an attack or two. If they get the drop on the party it could be dangerous if they go after the squishier members first, but the tougher and harder hitting members like a fighter or barbarian will make pretty short work of them. If the party strikes first the raptors are fucked as they get blasted away by ranged attacks and even melee with their relatively slow speed meaning the melee PCs can close and attack on the same turn.

I might be still thinking in 3.5 ed CR.  But CR has always been a bit of a hot mess so who knows.

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:38:17 pm

So, would you say it's still reasonable for a 5th-level character to be able to summon 8 of them, twice a day?

A 5th level could fireball 8 of them about twice a day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 02:04:27 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 01:40:35 pm

A 5th level could fireball 8 of them about twice a day.

Okay, so 8 giant bats instead. Gotcha. 4d10 hitpoints, 60' flying movement and 16 DEX.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:18:39 pm

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/feathers.png)

Realizing that DnD has fairly accurate, small velociraptors and remembering that XKCD makes me suddenly really want to run a campaign about dinosaurs. Dammit brain, I already have too many roleplaying concepts to choose between!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 02:22:25 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:18:39 pm

Realizing that DnD has fairly accurate, small velociraptors and remembering that XKCD makes me suddenly really want to run a campaign about dinosaurs. Dammit brain, I already have too many roleplaying concepts to choose between!

Perfect campaign for a grappler!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 02:24:22 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:18:39 pm

[xkcd /]

Realizing that DnD has fairly accurate, small velociraptors and remembering that XKCD makes me suddenly really want to run a campaign about dinosaurs. Dammit brain, I already have too many roleplaying concepts to choose between!

It better feature dino riding. Throw out the rules from whichever supplement adds dino races. Create your own, including people riding velociraptors around like minibikes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 29, 2018, 02:28:05 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 02:24:22 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:18:39 pm

[xkcd /]

Realizing that DnD has fairly accurate, small velociraptors and remembering that XKCD makes me suddenly really want to run a campaign about dinosaurs. Dammit brain, I already have too many roleplaying concepts to choose between!

It better feature dino riding. Throw out the rules from whichever supplement adds dino races. Create your own, including people riding velociraptors around like minibikes.

Dark Sun it is then

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:31:02 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 02:24:22 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:18:39 pm

[xkcd /]

Realizing that DnD has fairly accurate, small velociraptors and remembering that XKCD makes me suddenly really want to run a campaign about dinosaurs. Dammit brain, I already have too many roleplaying concepts to choose between!

It better feature dino riding. Throw out the rules from whichever supplement adds dino races. Create your own, including people riding velociraptors around like minibikes.

Dinosaurs seem to be a part of the regular monster manual in 5e, actually. Some of them in the "generic wildlife and such" section.

EDIT: Okay, looking at the book I was wrong about them being generic wildlife, but there are six dinosaurs in the manual. All big ones, so not velociraptors. Allosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Plesiosaurus, Pteranodon, Triceratops, Tyrannosaurus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 02:38:29 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:31:02 pm

Dinosaurs seem to be a part of the regular monster manual in 5e, actually. Some of them in the "generic wildlife and such" section.

Sorry, I meant the one that adds mechanics for racing while riding on various 'saurs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2018, 02:41:31 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 02:24:22 pm

It better feature dino riding. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpuhLkh358Y)

Faxed that fer ye

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on October 29, 2018, 02:53:03 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:38:17 pm

So Compy was roughly 1m in length (snout to tail tip), Velociraptor was 2m, and Deinonychus (which was apparently also what was being described in the book with the wrong name, and the film just kept the fraud going for source accuracy) is 3m.

Seems like a pretty good Tiny, Small, Medium progression to me.

Nah man, you're thinking too much in terms of length when these feathery assholes have big long tails that are totally throwing you off. Thinking about in terms of just mass, the Deinonychus weighs about as much as an adult man, easily medium, the compy weighs a few pounds, easily tiny, but the Velociraptor also only weigh like thirty pounds, a fair wack below most small races. They fit in tiny, although it's sorta on the edge (like a dwarf).

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 01:38:17 pm

So, would you say it's still reasonable for a 5th-level character to be able to summon 8 of them, twice a day?

It depends on how the encounter is set up, if the enemy doesn't have aoe and can't get to the druid, it's fairly strong. However aoe is going to send them all to dino hell. And it's concentration, which means you go up to the druid (Who now can't have his barkskin on) and smack him hard enough and there's a fair chance the spell fizzles out. Giant bats are a bit less vulnerable to aoe, but also less dangerous. I do like that idea more though, with the flying and such the druid would have a better chance of being able to escape from the fights as the bats saw to it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 03:02:03 pm

Hmm. This bestiary reference I'm using seems to have listed the Stench Kow's stink aura DC as being 26. I'm not sure how that happened.

That's definitely not the kind of DC you'd expect to see on a CR 1/4 beastie...


So... Celestial Warlock 6/Dragon Sorcerer 6... Get double your CHA mod in bonus damage on fire attacks! Splitting your build straight down the middle with 6 levels of Warlock is totally worth getting 8-10 bonus damage on your Fire Bolt, right? Right?

Supposedly, Crawford in his enlightenment has confirmed that you can use a warlock's pact magic slots to fuel Divine Smite, in case you wanted to pump those out every short rest rather than every long rest.


Still fiddling with different character concepts... Much as I'd love to do a grappler, there aren't a great many designs that seem to work at early levels, at least not when only using base books. Been thinking I might just try some form of druid, as they seem to be pretty decent, even if not quite as ridiculous as they may have been in earlier versions. Certainly got a lot of versatility, and rolling a versatility-focused druid named Bagatrix seems as much a reason to play a character as any.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 29, 2018, 03:14:37 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 03:02:03 pm

Hmm. This bestiary reference I'm using seems to have listed the Stench Kow's stink aura DC as being 26. I'm not sure how that happened.

That's definitely not the kind of DC you'd expect to see on a CR 1/4 beastie...

A little higher than in my copy of Volo's guide, yeah, which lists it as the slightly weaker DC12.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 03:42:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 03:02:03 pm

Hmm. This bestiary reference I'm using seems to have listed the Stench Kow's stink aura DC as being 26. I'm not sure how that happened.

That's definitely not the kind of DC you'd expect to see on a CR 1/4 beastie...

I think I found your source, and all of that data appears to have been entered by hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 29, 2018, 03:45:03 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:31:02 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 02:24:22 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 02:18:39 pm

[xkcd /]

Realizing that DnD has fairly accurate, small velociraptors and remembering that XKCD makes me suddenly really want to run a campaign about dinosaurs. Dammit brain, I already have too many roleplaying concepts to choose between!

It better feature dino riding. Throw out the rules from whichever supplement adds dino races. Create your own, including people riding velociraptors around like minibikes.

Dinosaurs seem to be a part of the regular monster manual in 5e, actually. Some of them in the "generic wildlife and such" section.

EDIT: Okay, looking at the book I was wrong about them being generic wildlife, but there are six dinosaurs in the manual. All big ones, so not velociraptors. Allosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Plesiosaurus, Pteranodon, Triceratops, Tyrannosaurus.

Volo's Guide to Monster includes about 6 more, including the Stegosaurus, Deinonycus, and Velociraptors.

One of the 5e official campaigns has dino racing, don't know if it has dino riding though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2018, 04:13:29 pm

It's funny, speaking of velociducktors: Ankylosaurus basically means "duckylosaurus" in Swedish

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 04:21:43 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 03:42:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 03:02:03 pm

Hmm. This bestiary reference I'm using seems to have listed the Stench Kow's stink aura DC as being 26. I'm not sure how that happened.

That's definitely not the kind of DC you'd expect to see on a CR 1/4 beastie...

I think I found your source, and all of that data appears to have been entered by hand.

That would certainly explain how the Hulking Crab's multiattack lets it use its tentacle attack three times as an aboleth, and how when it's hiding in its shell you need to pass an intelligence (Nature) check in order to discren^[sic] its true nature.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2018, 04:25:38 pm

You haven't dumped your discren skill right? Discrening is one of the most important abilities of an adventurer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 29, 2018, 05:11:54 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 29, 2018, 03:45:03 pm

One of the 5e official campaigns has dino racing, don't know if it has dino riding though.

Yup, that's Tomb of Annihilation, though it's gambling rather than your character as jockeys. Our DM promised that if we finish the quest successfully, he'll homebrew rules so that we can race ourselves. He did. I could ask him for them, if you're interested?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:26:16 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 29, 2018, 04:25:38 pm

You haven't dumped your discren skill right? Discrening is one of the most important abilities of an adventurer.

It is! It can even give you a situational bonus to your intit- your invititive... initiv- the intert-... Fuck it.


Curses, what is this confounded appeal of grapplers? I need to play a proper character instead of immediately hop on the hipster options.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2018, 05:41:56 pm

that would be a gripster thank you

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:53:17 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 29, 2018, 05:41:56 pm

that would be a gripster thank you

I am undone.

Pundone, rather.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 29, 2018, 06:29:51 pm

I am become Jest, destroyer of words!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 29, 2018, 06:41:13 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 29, 2018, 05:11:54 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 29, 2018, 03:45:03 pm

One of the 5e official campaigns has dino racing, don't know if it has dino riding though.

Yup, that's Tomb of Annihilation, though it's gambling rather than your character as jockeys. Our DM promised that if we finish the quest successfully, he'll homebrew rules so that we can race ourselves. He did. I could ask him for them, if you're interested?

I was more responding to one of the other guys who was asking about that. I imagine it involves Animal Handling though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 29, 2018, 07:06:20 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 04:21:43 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 29, 2018, 03:42:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 03:02:03 pm

Hmm. This bestiary reference I'm using seems to have listed the Stench Kow's stink aura DC as being 26. I'm not sure how that happened.

That's definitely not the kind of DC you'd expect to see on a CR 1/4 beastie...

I think I found your source, and all of that data appears to have been entered by hand.

That would certainly explain how the Hulking Crab's multiattack lets it use its tentacle attack three times as an aboleth, and how when it's hiding in its shell you need to pass an intelligence (Nature) check in order to discren^[sic] its true nature.

Honestly, that sounds like a pretty cool monster: A huge crab that can disguise itself as a rock or whatever when it goes in it's shell and also has tentacles for some reason.

Actually, when I first read that, I misread it as you needing to do a check to notice it's tentacles, which gave me the idea for a creature, possiby humanoid, that has hidden tentacles, and I'm thinking you need to make a check to notice them, otherwise it gets advantage or something, but making the check puts you at risk for going temporarily insane.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 09:00:19 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:26:16 pm

Curses, what is this confounded appeal of grapplers? I need to play a proper character instead of immediately hop on the hipster options.

You can immobilize two creatures, knock them over so that they get disadvantage to hit in melee and allies get advantage to hit them. If something is both grappled and prone, they can't stand up from prone because being grappled makes their movement 0. You can drag people to cliffs and throw them off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IronyOwl on October 29, 2018, 11:21:49 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 29, 2018, 05:11:54 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 29, 2018, 03:45:03 pm

One of the 5e official campaigns has dino racing, don't know if it has dino riding though.

Yup, that's Tomb of Annihilation, though it's gambling rather than your character as jockeys. Our DM promised that if we finish the quest successfully, he'll homebrew rules so that we can race ourselves. He did. I could ask him for them, if you're interested?

Every game needs dino racing, so I'd certainly be interested.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:11:07 am

Just so you know... Theoretically, chicken racing satisfies that requirement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 30, 2018, 03:26:30 am

Yes, but chickens aren't very fast when ridden by a half-orc in plate armour. I'll ask if the DM still has the rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 03:27:32 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 09:00:19 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:26:16 pm

Curses, what is this confounded appeal of grapplers? I need to play a proper character instead of immediately hop on the hipster options.

You can immobilize two creatures, knock them over so that they get disadvantage to hit in melee and allies get advantage to hit them. If something is both grappled and prone, they can't stand up from prone because being grappled makes their movement 0. You can drag people to cliffs and throw them off.

If everything goes well, sure. But in order to optimize for those situations (getting advantage on strength checks, getting double proficiency bonus, getting enough health and AC to not die when plugging yourself directly into two enemies, etc.) is a tricky bastard that happily will devour several feats and multiple split levels that don't really come online until at least CLevel 10+...

Which is exactly the dilemma I've been wrestling with for the past few days. Trying to find archetypes that don't require too much fiddling/luck/stats or that don't have quite so many dead levels before they start doing what they're supposed to... Without actually having any kind of experience with how a 5e battle or campaign tends to play out, so I really don't recognize how much survivability or offense I need to do things well enough, and I'm instead obsessing over getting the best in everything... Which requires a lot of levels and some funky building, heh.

Nah, think I should focus on a bog standard druid or wizard or something to get started with, at least for my first time. Doing a blasty sorcerer would also be fun, but that might be slightly awkward as I'm fairly sure someone else in the group is either going for that or has just recently been completely gushingly enamored with her character which was a dragon sorc.

Or make a nice healer to fall back on in case nobody nabs a healer.

Fuck.

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:11:07 am

Just so you know... Theoretically, chicken racing satisfies that requirement.

Cast Reduce on the gnome and try to get him to win the race before the time runs out and he squashes his mount? Sounds like a fun time!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 03:41:31 am

Seriously-- enlarge the chicken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm), and pretend it is chocobo racing.  With horrible, deadly, giant sized chickens that try to eat everything.  (Is a chicken a Small creature, or a Tiny creature?  It could be amusing to put a shrunk gnome on an enlarged chicken, and enter them into the race with the velociraptor riding orcs. Chicken is actually pretty fast when it wants to be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuS7ynMw5x8).)


See, I am thinking---  a 2x size Jersey Giant (https://www.poultryshowcentral.com/images/tn-jersey-giants-21857865.jpg) chicken, with a 1/2 size gnome team-- against fairies on banties, with magical shennanigans from the jockeys allowed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 30, 2018, 04:40:12 am

Make a fighter/rogue/druid/bard, Kagus. For old times' sake

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 05:19:54 am

Quote from: scriver on October 30, 2018, 04:40:12 am

Make a fighter/rogue/druid/bard, Kagus. For old times' sake

Ah, the MAD old days...


Philosophical question... Would a cannibal be able to cure a human's disease by casting Purify Food and Drink on them?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 05:36:56 am

I am pretty sure that would require the human to be dead first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on October 30, 2018, 06:22:57 am

Yes! They would almost certainly need to be dead first. Maybe a sarlacc could try to justify using it on a living person... But that'd be between that living hole with teeth and its gm.

However! Raise dead and Resurrection (the T1 and T2 bringing back to life spells respectively) don't cure magical diseases or poisons. (T3, True Resurrection does) Purify food and drink doesn't specifically say it doesn't cure magical poison and disease, so arguably it does cure them. So if you died to mummy rot or whatever and can't be rezzed because they can't cure the damn thing, maybe they can take a nibble, cure the rot, then bring you back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 30, 2018, 06:37:18 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 03:27:32 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2018, 09:00:19 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 05:26:16 pm

Curses, what is this confounded appeal of grapplers? I need to play a proper character instead of immediately hop on the hipster options.

You can immobilize two creatures, knock them over so that they get disadvantage to hit in melee and allies get advantage to hit them. If something is both grappled and prone, they can't stand up from prone because being grappled makes their movement 0. You can drag people to cliffs and throw them off.

If everything goes well, sure. But in order to optimize for those situations (getting advantage on strength checks, getting double proficiency bonus, getting enough health and AC to not die when plugging yourself directly into two enemies, etc.) is a tricky bastard that happily will devour several feats and multiple split levels that don't really come online until at least CLevel 10+...

Which is exactly the dilemma I've been wrestling with for the past few days. Trying to find archetypes that don't require too much fiddling/luck/stats or that don't have quite so many dead levels before they start doing what they're supposed to... Without actually having any kind of experience with how a 5e battle or campaign tends to play out, so I really don't recognize how much survivability or offense I need to do things well enough, and I'm instead obsessing over getting the best in everything... Which requires a lot of levels and some funky building, heh.

Nah, think I should focus on a bog standard druid or wizard or something to get started with, at least for my first time. Doing a blasty sorcerer would also be fun, but that might be slightly awkward as I'm fairly sure someone else in the group is either going for that or has just recently been completely gushingly enamored with her character which was a dragon sorc.

Or make a nice healer to fall back on in case nobody nabs a healer.

Fuck.

If you want to make a grappler you basically just take 5 levels of something that gets extra attack and a few levels of rogue, everything else is optional. Expertise Athletics + decent Str usually trumps most enemies grapple checks, so you grapple them, shove them prone, then shank them with a finesse weapon for sneak attack damage.

Most 5e enemies are terrible grapplers, I'm not sure any have Athletics or Acrobatics proficiency and most have only a small bonus modifier from their attributes. I've been happily grappling things with just 16 strength on a warlock with a single level dipped into monk (for the BA attack) with the UA feat that gives Athletics expertise.

EDIT: Hell, I even spent one fight just hauling a Drow warrior into our campfire because it was easier for me to grapple him and drag him into the flames than it was for me to hit him with my actual attacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 30, 2018, 06:45:06 am

Do prions count as disease? Hoof and mouth disease?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 30, 2018, 06:51:02 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on October 30, 2018, 06:22:57 am

Yes! They would almost certainly need to be dead first. Maybe a sarlacc could try to justify using it on a living person... But that'd be between that living hole with teeth and its gm.

However! Raise dead and Resurrection (the T1 and T2 bringing back to life spells respectively) don't cure magical diseases or poisons. (T3, True Resurrection does) Purify food and drink doesn't specifically say it doesn't cure magical poison and disease, so arguably it does cure them. So if you died to mummy rot or whatever and can't be rezzed because they can't cure the damn thing, maybe they can take a nibble, cure the rot, then bring you back.

Then again, a pedantic GM could have Purify Food and Drink also sterilize away all their gut microbiota on the grounds that they're a disease by virtue of getting other people sick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 07:31:37 am

I now want to see a dinosaur summoning druid or a dinosaur focussed campaign.

Awakened Allosaur druid that summons velociraptor packs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 07:40:46 am

It's still a bit of a balancing act, since neither fighter nor rogue gives you anything that can grant you advantage on strength checks (except for a level 13 swashbuckling rogue using Xanathar's guide, but that's a bit "out there"...), which is either necessary or merely extremely useful depending on your particular school of thought.

Then there's the fight between Shield Master and Tavern Brawler... SM can grab-shove an opponent using only one attack action (+bonus action), but then there's not a whole lot you can do with that one person you have grappled unless you also have A: Monk levels (in which case you shouldn't be using a shield), B: Tavern Brawler (for its least synergistic effect) or C: Spellcasting (either to prebuff with a +damage effect such as Hex or Divine Favor, or a Verbal-only/shield-is-a-focus attack spell to be used on the grappled opponent).

TB, meanwhile, allows you to swap the actions around a bit (bonus action for grapple, attack action for shove), but only if you have at least one level of Extra Attack, but it does give some minor damage options to use. It can even technically be used with nothing in your hands for double-grapple utility.

Unfortunately, it requires you to first land a successful attack in order to kick off the grapple. You could work around this by leading with the shove for advantage against a prone opponent (oppronenent?), but if the attack-grapple doesn't land after that then you've basically only succeeded in making them spend a few feet of movement next turn to stand up.

There's also the extremely strange philosophical discussion as to where the line between "improvised weapon" and "weapon" should be drawn, and how generous your DM feels about whatever random junk you happen to have picked up and swung about...


Additionally, the archetype is generally even more reliant on extra attacks than other brawlers, due to trying to get the most out of grappling and shoving... There are fast ways of getting a "poor man's" version, such as with the aforementioned Shield Master or Open Hand Monk, but those come with their own troubles. Otherwise, you're looking at a fairly significant investment in fighter levels, for the additional Action Surge and all its nonsense, or some other class that provides Extra Attack... Which means your character doesn't really blossom until you're several levels in.

Bards actually get a bunch of goodies related to grappling. Valor Bards gain bonus proficiency with medium armor and shields, expertise, spellcasting (including Enhance Ability for STR advantage so long as you can manage to maintain the concentration), as well as getting Extra Attack at level 6, all in the scope of one class. But they deal with d8 hit dice (suboptimal, considering), as well as again having to wait until CLevel 6 to really get moving. Also they don't have heavy armor proficiency, which would help bump ever-important AC up a touch and alleviate some of the MAD-ness.

But, I mean, bards seem to do most things better than other people in 5e anyways...

Quote from: scriver on October 30, 2018, 06:45:06 am

Do prions count as disease? Hoof and mouth disease?

I'd imagine they should... Inasmuch as they're actually modeled...

Quote from: Trekkin on October 30, 2018, 06:51:02 am

Then again, a pedantic GM could have Purify Food and Drink also sterilize away all their gut microbiota on the grounds that they're a disease by virtue of getting other people sick.

...and therein lies the rub. Hence the firm rooting of this question inside the "philosophical" realm, due to the subjective definitions of "food" and "disease". Or even "poison" for that matter... Cast Purify Food and Drink inside a candy shop, and all the chocolate disappears because it's toxic for dogs/gnolls.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 30, 2018, 07:52:26 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 07:31:37 am

I now want to see a dinosaur summoning druid or a dinosaur focussed campaign.

Awakened Allosaur druid that summons velociraptor packs.

Tomb of Annihilation is set on an island with dinosaurs. My ranger in that campaign had a deinonychus companion (drop the multiattack and it's on par with the standard options), and my bard routinely polymorphed his allies into quetzalcoatluses (flying, big enough to be ridden by several allies) and tyrannosauruses (great in combat, and makes fucking amazing scenes like that one time when the enemy was an undead tyrannosaurus).

I'm sure a druid like that would fit right in (and promptly die horribly, because it's ToA).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 09:33:26 am

Right, so, thinking my options for the potential newbie campaign are either straight Fighter focusing on being a nuisance with Polearm Mastery and Sentinel, or a straight Life Cleric for healsies (even though bards can apparently "do it better" with a Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard++ because they can pick up a Paladin's Aura of Vitality at level 6 and then apply Life Cleric's 2+spell level ability to the heals made by the aura... Bards even get Healing Word in their base spell list).

Should probably also have a Rogue archetype ready in the odd event that there aren't any unlocky/trap-disarmy people in the group, but I'm a little torn on how best to build that up...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on October 30, 2018, 09:38:16 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 09:33:26 am

Right, so, thinking my options for the potential newbie campaign are either straight Fighter focusing on being a nuisance with Polearm Mastery and Sentinel, or a straight Life Cleric for healsies (even though bards can apparently "do it better" with a Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard++ because they can pick up a Paladin's Aura of Vitality at level 6 and then apply Life Cleric's 2+spell level ability to the heals made by the aura... Bards even get Healing Word in their base spell list).

Should probably also have a Rogue archetype ready in the odd event that there aren't any unlocky/trap-disarmy people in the group, but I'm a little torn on how best to build that up...

I played a polearm push-away master. Pretty fun unless your enemy has reach.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 10:11:30 am

Quote from: Rowanas on October 30, 2018, 09:38:16 am

I played a polearm push-away master. Pretty fun unless your enemy has reach.

Theoretically, you should be able to do some dickery like 1) Hit opponent with an opportunity attack when they enter your reach [via Polearm Mastery], 2) Apply Trip Attack maneuver to the hit and, with some luck, knock the opponent prone, 3) Reduce opponent's speed to 0 for the rest of "the turn" [Sentinel].

Now they've fallen and they can't get up, at range even!


So, question... How ridiculous are mounted rogues using the presence of their mount to qualify for dealing sneak attack damage?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 30, 2018, 10:19:20 am

If you absolutely must have advantage on Strength checks to be a grappler then barbarogue works fine. 5 levels of barbarian of your choice, 15 levels of rogue. Most reliable way of having advantage and the two classes have some stat overlap anyway (both like Dex and Con).

Would probably be Bearbarian and Swashbuckler myself. Tankier than other Barbarian subclasses and better at solo fights than other Rogues, but I could see a strong argument for other subclasses in campaigns with lots of stealth or small numbers of fights per day.

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 10:11:30 am

So, question... How ridiculous are mounted rogues using the presence of their mount to qualify for dealing sneak attack damage?

Eh, really they should be getting sneak attack off almost all the time anyway just from allies being near things, the mount doesn't really add anything they didn't already have.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 10:42:50 am

It does allow them to charge around and perform hit-and-run (thanks to the "free" disengage of the mount) sneak attacks on their own, however. It's mostly just ridiculous in the sense of saying "yes, this is my horse, he is your enemy" and then stabbing someone while they're distracted by the threatening equine.


And now for something completely different: Mounted Combatant feat states that you get advantage on melee attack rolls against anything smaller than your mount. You should, then, be able to fly over the battlefield on a giant bat or something (those damn bats again...) and launch Thorn Whip on someone down below. It's a melee spell attack, but it just happens to be delivered up to 30' away (60' if you've got Spell Sniper). Advantage on the attack roll, a hit pulls the creature up to 10' towards you (upwards in this case) without a save if they're Large or smaller. Free extra 1d6 damage, and fun for the whole family!

Yeah, pretty stupid and situational, but the mental image is great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 10:52:32 am

Rogue riding a Trex. Then the whole 'this is your enemy' thing gets a lot less ridiculous.

Or take a page from Jurassic World. Awakened Deinonychus rogue riding a Tyrannosaurus and leap sneak attacking off it's back for grapple-murder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 30, 2018, 11:34:21 am

Is there actually an official way to make an awakened beast character? I'm not counting the Monstrous Races book as official.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 30, 2018, 12:05:39 pm

None that I'm aware of. Certainly not in 5e.

Closest would be 3e/3.5s Savage Species, but that was more for playing various monsters than awakened animals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 30, 2018, 12:27:21 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 10:42:50 am

It does allow them to charge around and perform hit-and-run (thanks to the "free" disengage of the mount) sneak attacks on their own, however. It's mostly just ridiculous in the sense of saying "yes, this is my horse, he is your enemy" and then stabbing someone while they're distracted by the threatening equine.


And now for something completely different: Mounted Combatant feat states that you get advantage on melee attack rolls against anything smaller than your mount. You should, then, be able to fly over the battlefield on a giant bat or something (those damn bats again...) and launch Thorn Whip on someone down below. It's a melee spell attack, but it just happens to be delivered up to 30' away (60' if you've got Spell Sniper). Advantage on the attack roll, a hit pulls the creature up to 10' towards you (upwards in this case) without a save if they're Large or smaller. Free extra 1d6 damage, and fun for the whole family!

Yeah, pretty stupid and situational, but the mental image is great.

Doesn't Mounted Combatant work on melee weapon attacks? Also, doesn't something have to fall more than 10 feet to take falling damage?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 12:46:45 pm

Mounted Combatant specifies "melee attack rolls", which means both melee spells and melee weapon attacks. I believe it specifically means "attack rolls associated with a melee usage" rather then "rolls associated with a melee attack", because the second definition could also then be applied to special melee attacks like grappling or shoving.

This does also mean that you could go Sorcerer and use distant spell to get advantageous rolls on touch spells on targets 30' away, you can ride a horse and Mr. Fantastic your way into a shocking grasp on someone 30 feet away (or 60' if you also have Spell Sniper, again).

Already this becomes fairly silly, since Mounted Combatant's advantage is clearly supposed to model the relative height advantage, but the real weirdness comes in when we involved familiars. Using your action and the familiar's reaction when the familiar is within 100' of you, you can cast a touch spell through the familiar. This is technically you casting the spell, since it's based on your spellcasting modifier and other applicable bonuses... But does that mean that the roll is then made with advantage because you have the Mounted Combatant feat? Despite your mount now being nowhere near either the target or the source?


So now we've moved from "you have an advantage because there is a horse near you" (Rogue distraction sneak attack) to "you have an advantage because you are on a horse" (mounted touch spells), and finally to "you have an advantage because there is a horse."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 30, 2018, 12:51:36 pm

Terry Crews strikes again.
Or is it the other guy I'm thinking of?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 12:56:58 pm

Arent awakened creatures just animals that have their INT score pumped up, so that they can learn humanoid speech, and use items?

There are any number of ways to boost an INT score.  Enchantment, Curse, Disease (in some cases), Ritual consequence, even Potion (though this is temporary)


Here's a radical idea.   Uses Lost Tradition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10203238&postcount=2), to establish a major stat to be used for magic rolls instead of INT, CHA, or WIS.  Then, takes ritual casting feat.

Even without actually meeting INT requirements to permanently learn a language, an animal under the influence of Comprehend Languages (https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Comprehend_Languages)  could read INT boosting books. Like this one. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/tome-of-clear-thought) To accomplish this would require the Lost Tradition feat, so that a stronger base stat could be used in place of INT for the ritual, and for learning spells (so it can learn the ritual.) If done EVERY DAY, it will take only 3 weeks to perform the cumulative 24 hours of study needed for the permanent +2 INT increase, which is within the 6 week window.  Requires a mentor that is able to appropriate, or create, the needed wondrous item(s), and get the cycle going.  Could couple this with a circlet of +2 int, which is semi-permanent as long as it is worn.

Initiation of the cycle could be done with Dominate Monster, by a wizard with the ritual casting feat. (so he can control the animal to make it perform the Comprehend Languages ritual)  --- alternatively, produces a potion of comprehend languages, and feeds it to the creature.

The intent here is to induct the animal into the Lost Tradition magical education battery, which naturally raises its INT, allowing it to learn a language, and use more convenient stats for its spellcasting.

It's at east a start on an idea on how this could get started anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 30, 2018, 01:14:00 pm

Third-party content from two editions ago probably doesn't count as "official" though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:15:41 pm

Even without lost tradition (which makes it easier...)

Potionized Comprehend Languages + the mentioned book, can give a neat +2 INT. It just makes it harder for the creature to learn the requisite magics needed to begin improving itself, rather than relying on its mentor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 30, 2018, 01:26:33 pm

Can you make potions of arbitrary spells in 5e? I seem to recall that you had to pick from the list they gave you, which from the SRD doesn't include Comprehend Languages.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:28:36 pm

That is a problem. 

Can dominate creature be used to force a creature that does not itself know a ritual, to perform a ritual that the dominating wizard DOES know?  That was the other suggested means to initiating the process (since Comprehend Languages is SELF.-- The creature must either use it as a potion, or perform the ritual.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 01:29:39 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 30, 2018, 12:51:36 pm

Terry Crews strikes again.
Or is it the other guy I'm thinking of?

'Tis the fellow from the first advertisements; Other Black Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Mustafa).

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 12:56:58 pm

[Animal House 2: The Real Party Animals]

There are also a few oddballs that don't necessarily need Comprehend Languages. Certain more "noble" critters like the Giant Owl, Giant Eagle, and Giant Elk are listed as being able to natively understand Common, Elvish and Sylvan, although they lack the ability to speak these languages.

The less-noble Giant Vulture understands Common, but can't speak it. Curiously, the Elk-Owl-Eagle group all have their own languages as well, which they can presumably speak with each other (in addition to understanding). Giant Vultures don't seem to feel the need to communicate with one another, and would much rather listen to humans than develop their own language.


Presumably "understands" does not include "is able to read", as I don't imagine there's much literature out in the wilds for them to peruse... As such, you may need to find a tutor to read for them (or teach them to read).

Of course, the INT boosting would be a bit strange here, since all those animals have either 7 or 8 INT. The Giant Ape, meanwhile, has 7 INT but cannot understand any language. Just to make things extra clear.



As for mounted combat, there's a new snag... Apparently there's no clear consensus on how your size and reach are handled when you're mounted. This is difficult when you as a Medium creature occupy a 5'x5' space, while the horse you're sitting on occupies a 10'x10' space. The official response from the devs has apparently been "use your own reach", but no explanation of where you are when you're using your own reach. Some have interpreted this to mean that you need to use your own movement in order to walk/climb around on top of your mount to the individual spaces that you fit into, but this kinda requires you to homebrew some rules regarding facing.

Curiously, that's also the only way of getting the Charger feat to actually work while being mounted... Since you and your mount technically take two consecutive turns on the same initiative (your choice who goes first), you can't perform the required action sequence (use your action to Dash, traverse 10 feet in a straight line, immediately use your bonus action afterwards) unless you dismount and run the distance yourself. However, if you as a medium or small creature are located on the back of a Huge mount, such as an elephant, the elephant can walk up to an enemy, and then you can take a running charge along the back of the elephant before colliding with your foe and dealing bonus damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 30, 2018, 01:40:11 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:28:36 pm

That is a problem. 

Can dominate creature be used to force a creature that does not itself know a ritual, to perform a ritual that the dominating wizard DOES know?  That was the other suggested means to initiating the process (since Comprehend Languages is SELF.-- The creature must either use it as a potion, or perform the ritual.)

I don't think so, no; Dominate Monster can't force it to do anything it can't do (per the "tries its best" bit of the spell and common sense), and without the Ritual Caster feat or class levels it can't cast rituals. Can NPCs get feats?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:45:13 pm

The intention here would be more "enhanced familiar", rather than "captured wild creature" though.

It would also be more the "out of combat" form of dominate creature,  with emphasis on the bolded section of the description:

Quote

Dominate Monster

You attempt to beguile a creature that you can see within range. It must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be Charmed by you for the Duration. If you or creatures that are friendly to you are fighting it, it has advantage on the saving throw.

While the creature is Charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence. You can use this telepathic link to issue commands to the creature while you are conscious (no action required), which it does its best to obey. You can specify a simple and general course of action, such as Attack that creature, Run over there, or Fetch that object. If the creature completes the order and doesn't receive further direction from you, it defends and preserves itself to the best of its ability.

You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn't do anything that you don't allow it to do. During this time, you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well.

Each time the target takes damage, it makes a new Wisdom saving throw against the spell. If the saving throw succeeds, the spell ends.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell with a 9th-level spell slot, the Duration is Concentration, up to 8 hours.

If the wizard has total and precise control over the animal, he can puppeteer it through the ritual, theoretically.  Since this is a non-combat round, there shouldnt be any outside interferences.

There ironically COULD be a reasonable basis to get a DM to agree on this:  Take for instance, a person operating under a geas to perform an unsealing ritual, even though they do not understand or know that ritual.  The being that has them ensnared DOES know, and wants them to do the ritual to set it free. (It's a staple trope for releasing evil entities.  This would be a cognate consequence of allowing that kind of control to exist in the world.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 01:47:58 pm

So there's probably no official way to play a psychotically bouncy Deinonychus rogue riding a Trex then? Just enhanced familiar stuff?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 01:52:47 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:45:13 pm

-snip-

Would they be able to perform the verbal/somatic components of the ritual though? And presumably a Sorcerer's sorcery points are an inherent attribute that they as an individual possess, so you probably wouldn't be able to metamagic a subtle casting of it that way around.

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 01:47:58 pm

So there's probably no official way to play a psychotically bouncy Deinonychus rogue riding a Trex then? Just enhanced familiar stuff?

Well... Moon Druid/Rogue?


EDIT: So there's the spell Glibness, but Xanathar adds the Mastermind subclass which gets a similar permanent ability at level 17. Both of these effects make lie-detecting magic indicate that you're telling the truth, and the Mastermind's ability even specifically states that you cannot be forced by magic to state the truth either.

The question is, then... How easily would you be able to fool a Solar? They have a "Divine Awareness" ability that lets them automatically know if they're being lied to (rather, the writing says "when they hear a lie", but I doubt you'll be allowed to get around that with sign language/writing/telepathy), and presumably they know that they'll know when they're being lied to... Which means that if you lie to them and their buzzer doesn't go off, they should believe that you're telling the truth. I mean, they'd know if you weren't, wouldn't they?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 30, 2018, 01:55:04 pm

So what are we doing now? Teaching animals to speak?

Simple. Have a wild mage blow all slots on Comprehend Languages (or whatever spell you want; I specifically chose one that doesn't really have effects) until they get the "everyone within X range understands Y language" result.

Though now that I'm looking at the table, I don't see that result. Perhaps that was a bit of homebrew or something - I recall after that campaign arc ended that the guy reminded us of his wild magic surge and that, if we didn't realize already, everyone in the party at that time learned to understand Abyssal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 30, 2018, 01:55:49 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:45:13 pm

If the wizard has total and precise control over the animal, he can puppeteer it through the ritual, theoretically.  Since this is a non-combat round, there shouldnt be any outside interferences.

That's the part that I'm not sure of, because it assumes that being puppeteered through a ritual is enough to cast it -- which, if a character without Ritual Casting cannot cast rituals by mimicing a character who does, seems unlikely to me. Since the feat doesn't say either way, it is I think reasonable to assume that inclusio unius est exclusio alterius since otherwise we'd have fighters casting spells because it doesn't say they can't and so forth, in which case it'd be like trying to Dominate Monster something without wings into flying. It'll do everything it's made to do, but that doesn't guarantee the results.

EDIT: presumably Faustian pacts and such work differently, being rituals that anyone can cast. I'm not sure any exist in 5e, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:56:43 pm

Well.. If you can increase its CR so that it meets your plucky saurian archetype, then True Polymorph with held duration could get you what you want?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on October 30, 2018, 02:04:03 pm

Okay folks, I'd like some input for a character I'm moving to in a campaign. It's pathfinder (3.5 magic items and spells allowed) with Path of War and Spheres of Power 3PP added ontop of the systems. Spheres of Might are technically available but aren't important for the characters I'm looking at.

For background, we have 4 players, two of whom are differently spec'd paladins. One's a vanilla paladin while the other is the Path of War variant built around morale boosts. I had a knowledge-spec bard (who I'm retiring. I love her too much to kill her.) and the other player was a tiefling warlord who had already died once and has now died a second time due to horrendously bad dice rolls. (Our DM is infamous for high rolling. His dice are balanced, we just think he sacrificed his first child.)

So I'm moving to a healer/support class. Only issue is, I'm torn between two classes/builds.

Spoiler: Herbalist Druid (click to show/hide)

Here's the Sheet! (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1710710)

The build concept here is one of "always be prepared". Magic Item Crafting is necessary, since it's much cheaper than purchasing.

Pros:

• Currently 5 free (1st level CL 1) potions/day during downtime, or 4 plus half-day's work on an item.
• 1 potion a day while travelling (according to rules, can work 2 hours for 1 hours worth of work a day)
• At level 7, can make any level concoction in one minute allowing full item crafting days on downtime, and full crafting during travel
• Access to all 3.5 druid spells for potions.
• Maintains wildshape capabilities
• Spontaneously casts cures

Cons:

• Limited in-combat versatility
• Limited casts per day (mitigated by wands and potions)
• Useless in melee combat, even with wild shape

This build requires me to think ahead and have everything ready, but makes it extremely easy to be ready for anything with as many free potions as I can get. I will need to get a bag of holding, or at least a handy haversack in order to properly hold all the items created.

And since I'm able to craft, the party is able to much more effectively spend their gold on upgrades. Assuming we get some downtime.

Spoiler: Spheres of Power Support (click to show/hide)

Here's the Sheet! (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1708483)

The concept here is definitely one of power multiplication. The two paladins hit plenty hard, it's just making sure they stay alive and can actually hit.

Pros:

• Stupidly effective healing
• Can Treat Deadly wounds in 1 minute rather than an hour, and twice per day per person
• Spheres flexibility lets me dip for AC bonuses and haste
• Magical endurance is through the ceiling compared to traditional system

Cons:

• No ability to prepare potions or craft magic items
• No wildshape
• Extremely squishy

This build requires little to no thought when preparing for the day, but can only do a few things at all in combat situations. Absolutely a healing powerhouse, but suffers greatly for that in lack of flexibility.

I'm honestly leaning towards the first, but the second would be much more capable of making the paladins effective in what they do (swing a big sword).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 02:05:35 pm

Damn, three replies while I was editing my last post... Whoops.

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:56:43 pm

Well.. If you can increase its CR so that it meets your plucky saurian archetype, then True Polymorph with held duration could get you what you want?

Ah, but True Polymorph replaces all your class levels and abilities with those of the thing you're polymorphed into. In order to do your sneak attack then, you'd need to somehow earn Rogue levels (from "level 0") while a deinonychus.


EDIT: As for rituals being mimicked by those without the feat, one could presume that a person could (within a reasonably short time) mimic the techniques to deliver more damage after charging a short distance. However, without the feat, they're not able to actually get that +5 damage boost... Feats can therefore be considered an indication of an individual actually understanding the ability well enough to properly replicate it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:07:24 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 01:52:47 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:45:13 pm

-snip-

Would they be able to perform the verbal/somatic components of the ritual though? And presumably a Sorcerer's sorcery points are an inherent attribute that they as an individual possess, so you probably wouldn't be able to metamagic a subtle casting of it that way around.

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 01:47:58 pm

So there's probably no official way to play a psychotically bouncy Deinonychus rogue riding a Trex then? Just enhanced familiar stuff?

Well... Moon Druid/Rogue?


EDIT: So there's the spell Glibness, but Xanathar adds the Mastermind subclass which gets a similar permanent ability at level 17. Both of these effects make lie-detecting magic indicate that you're telling the truth, and the Mastermind's ability even specifically states that you cannot be forced by magic to state the truth either.

The question is, then... How easily would you be able to fool a Solar? They have a "Divine Awareness" ability that lets them automatically know if they're being lied to (rather, the writing says "when they hear a lie", but I doubt you'll be allowed to get around that with sign language/writing/telepathy), and presumably they know that they'll know when they're being lied to... Which means that if you lie to them and their buzzer doesn't go off, they should believe that you're telling the truth. I mean, they'd know if you weren't, wouldn't they?

This would depend on the creature you are trying to puppeteer I think.  If the somatic component requires a hand gesture, you need a creature with a hand.  If it has a verbal component, it needs to be capable of making human-like sounds. (Say, a parrot, or a raven) 

The spell in question has a verbal, a somatic, and a material component.  So, whatever creature you attempt to puppeteer would need to be able to make human like sounds.  This makes sense anyway, since your goal is to get it to fluently speak a language in the end run anyway.  Without using "awakened creature" straight up, (which outright gives that ability), you would be stuck with creatures that are able to make the physical actions needed to speak, even if they cannot comprehend speech. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:10:21 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 02:05:35 pm

Damn, three replies while I was editing my last post... Whoops.

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:56:43 pm

Well.. If you can increase its CR so that it meets your plucky saurian archetype, then True Polymorph with held duration could get you what you want?

Ah, but True Polymorph replaces all your class levels and abilities with those of the thing you're polymorphed into. In order to do your sneak attack then, you'd need to somehow earn Rogue levels (from "level 0") while a deinonychus.

The idea is to polymorph a familiar into said deinonychus. It going to level 0 is just a cost of doing business.  You dont invest any levels or the like into it to begin with.  You find the familiar, bump its CR some how so that it is in the allowable exchange pool with said saurian horror, then do true polymorph.

Once it is permanently transformed, THEN you start investing levels into it.

OR-- you state that this is what happened as the backstory.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 02:10:47 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 02:05:35 pm

Damn, three replies while I was editing my last post... Whoops.

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 01:56:43 pm

Well.. If you can increase its CR so that it meets your plucky saurian archetype, then True Polymorph with held duration could get you what you want?

Ah, but True Polymorph replaces all your class levels and abilities with those of the thing you're polymorphed into. In order to do your sneak attack then, you'd need to somehow earn Rogue levels (from "level 0") while a deinonychus.

Step one: get permanently True Polymorphed into a Deinonychus.
Step two: gain levels in rogue
Step three: Tyrannosaurus mount

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 30, 2018, 02:11:12 pm

The solution for the deinonychus rogue is to have True Polymorph cast on them in their backstory, as then you'll be able to explain where the first level of rogue came from (the same place as everyone else's first class level)

Oh come on you ninja.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 02:14:09 pm

Ah so I can just put that in the backstory. And find a DM and game willing to let me be a ludicrous, murderous stealth-dinosaur. I'll figure out the mount after that.

... An armored stealth dinosaur.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 02:15:57 pm

Unfortunately, if you do that, then the DM will point out (...or not...) that the moment it gets hit with a Dispel Magic effect, it will get un-polymorphed back into... Whatever it was before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:19:11 pm

This is true, but you could trade that weakness for another if you give it a permanent antimagic aura.  Then the abjuration would not be able to hit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 02:23:27 pm

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:19:11 pm

This is true, but you could trade that weakness for another if you give it a permanent antimagic aura.  Then the abjuration would not be able to hit.

But then the antimagic aura would cancel the magical effect of being polymorphed, ending in the same result: Mighty unmorphing power raptors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:33:10 pm

There's an out for that.

The true polymorph effect is the result of an enchanted object, rather than a spell.  That abuses the antimagic field's rules.

Quote

Spells and other magical effects, except those created by an artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the Sphere and can't protrude into it. A slot expended to cast a suppressed spell is consumed. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn't function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its Duration.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on October 30, 2018, 02:34:49 pm

The "or a diety" part could be backstory-abused as well. "Oh no, I'm a dino given sentience and damned by a trickster god to question why, oh god why!?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 02:36:55 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on October 30, 2018, 02:34:49 pm

The "or a diety" part could be backstory-abused as well. "Oh no, I'm a dino given sentience and damned by a trickster god to question why, oh god why!?"

Or...

"I used to be a dino poacher, until I angered a wild primeval god who cursed me to take the form of my prey"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:39:53 pm

Absuing anti-magic in this way though is very dangerous.

Healing becomes problematical. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 30, 2018, 02:44:05 pm

"by hitting me with an arrow in the knee"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 02:46:02 pm

Then I'd have to figure out the bonuses and maluses of being a dino. Slowly we draw closer to me writing up Deeno the Deinonychus

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 02:54:49 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 30, 2018, 12:27:21 pm

Also, doesn't something have to fall more than 10 feet to take falling damage?

So far as I know, falling exactly 10' should deal the 1d6 of damage... I think. There are at least two random people on the internet who agree with me, so there.

Quote from: wierd on October 30, 2018, 02:39:53 pm

Absuing anti-magic in this way though is very dangerous.

Healing becomes problematical. :P

Sure, but a healer's kit can be used to restore 1d6+4(+total number of hit dice) once per short rest with the appropriate feat, and the Inspiring Leader feat's temporary hitpoints are presumably also considered nonmagical... Difficult to say, though. Goodberries are considered magic items, so they probably wouldn't do anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 30, 2018, 03:33:42 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 30, 2018, 02:46:02 pm

Then I'd have to figure out the bonuses and maluses of being a dino. Slowly we draw closer to me writing up Deeno the Deinonychus

Bonuses:

• Pounce attack
• You're a fucking dinosaur

Maluses:

• No hands
• Social prejudice

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 30, 2018, 03:42:55 pm

I don't understand why you guys are bothering with True Polymorph shenanigans when you can just have use Awaken (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) on a deinonychus. It's instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled, and all you need to do it is have a level 9+ druid and an agate worth 1000gp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 03:48:19 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on October 30, 2018, 03:42:55 pm

I don't understand why you guys are bothering with True Polymorph shenanigans when you can just have use Awaken (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) on a deinonychus. It's instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled, and all you need to do it is have a level 9+ druid and an agate worth 1000gp.

Except that Awaken can be cast on beasts and plants that have an INT score of 3 or lower.

Deinonychus, being a clever girl, has 4.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 30, 2018, 04:11:27 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 03:48:19 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on October 30, 2018, 03:42:55 pm

I don't understand why you guys are bothering with True Polymorph shenanigans when you can just have use Awaken (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) on a deinonychus. It's instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled, and all you need to do it is have a level 9+ druid and an agate worth 1000gp.

Except that Awaken can be cast on beasts and plants that have an INT score of 3 or lower.

Deinonychus, being a clever girl, has 4.

Ah, I see. That makes it a little bit trickier, but doable with a 15+ level wizard casting Feeblemind (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/feeblemind.htm) on it beforehand or putting an intellect devourer next to it so it can devour it's intellect and reduce it's intelligence to 0, and stopping it before it jumps into the deinonychus's skull and takes control of its body.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 04:36:06 pm

Or just have an argument with your DM whether or not Wish's spell-copying statement of "You don’t need to meet any requirements" can mean that the spell no longer requires the target to have an intelligence score of 3 or lower.

As an added bonus, you won't have to shell out 1,000 for the agate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 30, 2018, 05:50:17 pm

Or you could just say that a rare more powerful version of Awaken was cast on you.
We don't actually have to be able to cast it ourselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 06:26:03 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 30, 2018, 05:50:17 pm

Or you could just say that a rare more powerful version of Awaken was cast on you.
We don't actually have to be able to cast it ourselves.

Or, even better, you just happened to be dumber than the average deinonychus, allowing the spell to be cast...

Buncha druids probably took pity on you... Or were just stoned on divination herbs and figured they had to jump at the chance to finally elevate a dinosaur.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 30, 2018, 06:32:12 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2018, 06:26:03 pm

Buncha druids probably took pity on you... Or were just stoned on divination herbs and figured they had to jump at the chance to finally elevate a dinosaur.

The Idiot Dinosaur is the druid version of The Ugly Duckling, clearly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 30, 2018, 09:21:31 pm

...If your GM is okay with it, you could just say you were a dinosaur that's had Awakening cast on it at some point in the past. No need for polymorphing.
As a bonus this means that your backstory is "A wizard druid did it."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 30, 2018, 09:54:42 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 29, 2018, 04:15:14 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 28, 2018, 08:42:13 pm

Even what she should mechanically take as a feat.  Still leaning towards Tavern Brawler - even though it's dumb, oOoO, I should probably take 20 CHA instead~

It's dumb, oOoO, you should probably take 20 CHA instead.

The grappling parts of Tavern Brawler aren't even that good from a grappling perspective, and are completely useless to a non-grappler. The unarmed damage die upgrade is nice if you plan on punching people a lot, which is the real reason grapplers might pick the feat up, but if you're not an extremely punchy character it's not going to do much either.

As for proficiency with improvised weapons, you already have proficiency with improvised objects that resemble weapons you're proficient with. I mean, this is technically a "GM's option", but I'm going to go ahead and assume that your particular GM isn't the kind who would say you can't use a lump of wood or table leg as a club (which you are proficient with) because it's not exactly the kind of lumpy wood that a club is designated as being.

One thing is trying to argue that the cool rock you picked up should be treated as a double-bladed scimitar, it's entirely another to say "this whacking stick is a whacking stick".


Basically the only thing you'd directly get out of that is proficiency with using specifically your lute as a weapon, and as a dabbling musician I can only scream silently at such a decision.


EDIT: If you really want to drive home the "cheerleader" role, you could potentially take something like Martial Adept and pick up a superiority die. There's no stat bonus attached to the feat (and 20 CHA really is quite nice), but you get access to things like Commanding Strike or Maneuvering Strike, which would let you play fangirl to the Dragopal by giving them more things to do with their reaction (there's also Rally, but it's a piddling amount of temporary hitpoints and temp HP doesn't stack with any other source of temp HP, of which there are many). As far as bar room brawl applicability is concerned, most maneuvers require only a "weapon attack", which includes unarmed strikes and throwing rocks/mugs at people.

I've been mulling over this very solid advice, thank you!  I'm not trying to optimize but there are some good ideas here regardless, particularly the Martial Adept options for chearleading.

However I've already got a lot of "Hey have a die" as a bard.  I don't want to slow things down even more by having people perform actions during my turn.  And OOC I've had a tendency to "direct" battles for a while, and that just doesn't fit my current character at all.  I consider it personal growth that the orc player sleepily attacked someone I'd just Hideous Laughter'd, and I didn't even try to warn him.  Just told the DM about the save-with-advantage, then assured the other player that it was totally fine XD

More mechanically, I've already got a lot of use for my bonus actions, and we seldom take short rests.

Grappling is awful and doesn't fit my character though, so I agree Tavern Brawler is dumb, oOoO.  Gotta pick something else.
Crossbow Expert is SO badass, particularly the offhand shot into a melee opponent, but doesn't fit at all.  Same with Moderately Armored, even if I got the DM to allow +1 CON instead of the book's +1 Str or Dex (Dex??).  No, here are what I'm actually considering now:

Skulker:  Probably completely stupid.  Is a bard automatically revealed by playing a song?  Probably.  Unless the DM decides I'm echoing my music off the walls or something.  I wouldn't bring it up except that I have double-proficiency in Stealth from when this character was an NPC.
Lucky: It's similar to what I already do as a bard, but MORE and stacks.  This is a strong candidate.
Inspiring Leader:  7 temp HP for everyone is okay I guess, but I'm not a leader, and there's only three of us, this just seems weak.
Resilient (CON):  I should stop obsessing about my odd CON probably.  Proficiency on CON does sound pretty useful... Except we have a paladin to cure disease and poison.
Defensive Duelist:  I like the idea of surviving melee, but this is probably a weak use of a feat
+2 CHA:  Let's face it I'm cute~ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcnj9btzcm8&feature=youtu.be&t=2119)  Almost certainly the best choice, and not even out of character at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 31, 2018, 01:37:44 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on October 30, 2018, 09:54:42 pm

Is a bard automatically revealed by playing a song?

Bardic Inspiration works with any sort of artistic performance, including pantomime. The requirement is that the target see you or hear you, after all.

brb, making my next character a mime

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 04:10:44 am

Medium armor still sorta relies on DEX, as it will benefit from dexterity up to 14, and will be penalized by dexterity below 10. So, yeah, I can see getting the +1 DEX from that.

Wouldn't generally recommend burning a feat for armor proficiency though, fluff or no fluff.

+2 CHA is of course probably going to go the farthest as far as real usability is concerned here, even if it doesn't come with quite as many bells and whistles as one might enjoy (I need to make a mental note to keep more room open for stat increases myself... Feats are just too tempting).


There's also War Caster. Advantage on concentration saving throws is great, and bards do have a few things they can use it on.

Being able to cast a single-target spell in place of an attack of opportunity is an interesting consideration as well. Since most AoOs have to do with a not-disengaged enemy leaving your threatened area, I imagine swapping a thump out with a quick casting of Vicious Mockery would be the Forgotten Realms equivalent of yelling "Oh yeah!?" at someone's back as they walk away.

All depending on your stats though, the thumpin' might have greater effect...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 31, 2018, 04:11:17 am

What about smell? Could you do a bardic smell performance?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 04:13:25 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 04:11:17 am

What about smell? Could you do a bardic smell performance?

Introducing Horvid, the Horrible Dwarven Flatulist!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 31, 2018, 05:20:31 am

Toot Flute is a musical performance!!

You want ODORIST!  A professional at fine-grained control over his skin's excretory responses, able to secrete a plethora of bodily odors!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 05:29:04 am

Or just be some sort of aromatherapy master, with incense, fragrant herbs and flowers, perfumes, scented candles and the like.

Granting an individual bardic inspiration could be achieved by hurling a fistful of potpourri at them.


Bonus points for picking a sitar as your musical instrument of choice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 31, 2018, 05:36:59 am

If it can be visual... 

**Imagines a "bard" that is armed with 3 sticks of colored chalk, and a bulls-eye lantern.  The bard says nothing, but dramatically scrabbles together a complete-wall motif abstract art installation on the side of the dungeon wall, illuminated by the bullseye lantern.  Strange events happen immediately after.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 31, 2018, 05:47:28 am

I want a bard that performs exclusively flag-based acts, like the guys on old ships and air fields

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 31, 2018, 06:17:21 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 05:47:28 am

I want a bard that performs exclusively flag-based acts, like the guys on old ships and air fields

They still do that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 31, 2018, 06:23:54 am

Thunder and lightning engulfs the field as the mightiest warrior in the land and the most powerful wizard in recent memory take cover from the dragon's breath. The wizard responds with a crackling lightning bolt of his own, yet it grounds harmlessly on the azure wyrm's skin. The warrior wields her lance with valour, but it fails to penetrate the adamant scales and glances away. Hope seems lost as all turn their gazes to the third adventurer...

"Dexter, what do you think of the situation?" the bard asks from the sock covering his right hand.

"I'd say the darling Miss Lance there really needs to aim for the belly, that's where the weakpoint is," he says in a soft, high-pitched voice from the corner of his mouth as he moves the sock's "mouth", before turning to his left hand, also covered by a sock.

"What about you, Sinister?"

"OH, WIZZY-BOY SHOULD THROW A FIREBALL INSTEAD! SHOWER THE EARTH IN THE DRAGON'S BOILING BLOOD!" the bard shouts in a growling, maniacal voice.

Silence falls as the fighting stops. The warrior, the wizard and the dragon all stare at the bard, confused as he smiles proudly. A moment passes, until suddenly a disgusting SCHLURK sounds out from under the dragon as its neck droops and it falls to the ground, dead. The party's final member, the stealthiest rogue of all, had taken the opportunity for a sneak attack!

Be it with song or dance or even sock puppets or semaphore, a clever bard knows which of their party members to inspire, and how to best achieve it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 31, 2018, 06:41:24 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 31, 2018, 06:17:21 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 05:47:28 am

I want a bard that performs exclusively flag-based acts, like the guys on old ships and air fields

They still do that.

What ship today even has a place to look at another place on another ship where a flag person might be waving at them? Seems easier to just use radio.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 31, 2018, 06:53:39 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 06:41:24 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 31, 2018, 06:17:21 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 05:47:28 am

I want a bard that performs exclusively flag-based acts, like the guys on old ships and air fields

They still do that.

What ship today even has a place to look at another place on another ship where a flag person might be waving at them? Seems easier to just use radio.

You mean like a deck? Because ships still have those.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 07:29:20 am

Dramatic semaphore, you say? (https://youtu.be/kqiUGjghlzU?t=63)

So, what kind of wizard specialties do y'all like? Divination seems pretty snazzy, and Evocation has got some crazy nonsense as well (including a curious buff to save-based cantrips, which is uncommon but intriguing)...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 31, 2018, 07:36:32 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 06:41:24 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 31, 2018, 06:17:21 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 05:47:28 am

I want a bard that performs exclusively flag-based acts, like the guys on old ships and air fields

They still do that.

What ship today even has a place to look at another place on another ship where a flag person might be waving at them? Seems easier to just use radio.

All of them. Especially most navy vessels. Iirc the USN often practices flag signalling to prepare for the possibility of downed communication or radio silence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 09:11:59 am

Been fiddling around with the idea of a Monk with the Magic Initiate feat picking up Hex from the Warlock list.

Originally the idea was to inflict disadvantage on saving throws versus the avatar Monk's elemental abilities, as well as the obvious synergy with Flurry... Buuut, really; even with disadvantage on the save, the bender abilities don't seem particularly great for how much they cost (level-wise and ki-wise). I'm thinking a better fit would probably just be Open Hand and giving them disadvantage on the DEX save to not be knocked prone during a flurry.

Monks having low CHA doesn't mean much since Hex is a no-save, no-roll spell. As for the two cantrips, you can go for similarly stat-independent things like Mage Hand or Prestidigitation (...or Blade Ward).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 31, 2018, 09:59:15 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 31, 2018, 07:36:32 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 06:41:24 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 31, 2018, 06:17:21 am

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 05:47:28 am

I want a bard that performs exclusively flag-based acts, like the guys on old ships and air fields

They still do that.

What ship today even has a place to look at another place on another ship where a flag person might be waving at them? Seems easier to just use radio.

All of them. Especially most navy vessels. Iirc the USN often practices flag signalling to prepare for the possibility of downed communication or radio silence.

Pssh, people are far too small to be able to be seen from one space ship to another!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on October 31, 2018, 11:51:00 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 09:11:59 am

Been fiddling around with the idea of a Monk with the Magic Initiate feat picking up Hex from the Warlock list.

Originally the idea was to inflict disadvantage on saving throws

Note: Hex doesn't give disadvantage on saving throws, only ability checks (which does include skill checks).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 31, 2018, 12:10:53 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 07:29:20 am

Dramatic semaphore, you say? (https://youtu.be/kqiUGjghlzU?t=63)

So, what kind of wizard specialties do y'all like? Divination seems pretty snazzy, and Evocation has got some crazy nonsense as well (including a curious buff to save-based cantrips, which is uncommon but intriguing)...

I'm playing a conjuration wizard currently. It's still early levels, but I think Minor Conjuration is a pretty interesting ability, though I'm definitely not using it enough. I think I need to talk with my DM about how whether or not I could conjure several tiny objects of the same kind (probably not, but, now that I think of it, I could probably make a bunch of caltrops that are tied together), or if I can conjure substances (which could get crazy broken if that means I can conjure up valuable poisons). I think a lot of my problems also come from running into it's size and weight limits (so I can't conjure up hunting traps, because they're too heavy, and, while I could create some kind of cover for myself, being a halfling and therefore under 3 feet tall, I don't know how hard of a cover it could be at only 10 pounds). What I'm really looking forward to now, though, is getting to 6th level and getting free teleports.

Besides that, I'd say abjuration wizard can be fun. The first character I played in 5th edition was a dwarven abjuration wizard, before I switch to a barbarian because we needed more melee fighters. That said, if I had the knowledge then that I do now, I probably could have turned it into a decent frontline fighter, especially if I could get permission from my DM at the time to change my mountain dwarf into a hill dwarf (I was mostly intrigued at the time that, in this edition, wizards can learn to wear armor, but I now think it's better to use mage armor or take a level in fighter rather than go mountain dwarf). Then I'd focus on some sort of melee cantrip and take the toughness feat when I get the chance. Also, the idea is a little better nowadays since there's things like Sword Coast Guide cantrips and spells from Xanathar's like shadow blade or steel wind strike.

Quote from: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 09:11:59 am

Been fiddling around with the idea of a Monk with the Magic Initiate feat picking up Hex from the Warlock list.

Originally the idea was to inflict disadvantage on saving throws versus the avatar Monk's elemental abilities, as well as the obvious synergy with Flurry... Buuut, really; even with disadvantage on the save, the bender abilities don't seem particularly great for how much they cost (level-wise and ki-wise). I'm thinking a better fit would probably just be Open Hand and giving them disadvantage on the DEX save to not be knocked prone during a flurry.

Monks having low CHA doesn't mean much since Hex is a no-save, no-roll spell. As for the two cantrips, you can go for similarly stat-independent things like Mage Hand or Prestidigitation (...or Blade Ward).

Unfortunately, hex doesn't give disadvantage on saving throws, only ability checks, which are basically skill checks (but also includes things like initiative and counterspell and dispel magic rolls). If you do want to give disadvantage on saving throws, you'll need bestow curse (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm), though unfortunately that's a 3rd level spell, so not usable with Magic Initiate. Though it's not quite disadvantage, bane (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bane.htm) achieves something similar, and also, nicely, works off a charisma save, which most things don't have much defense against, and it can be cast on multiple targets at once.

Bane is also on the cleric list (as is bestow curse), so it synergies pretty well ability score-wise with monk, though, looking at hex (which is unfortunately not in the SRD), it uses a bonus action instead of an action and lasts an hour and can be transferred to a new target if the old one dies, so I can see why you'd want it as a magic initiate spell. Hunter's mark (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/huntersMark.htm) does a similar thing (mostly the only difference between the spells is that hunter's mark helps with tracking them), but unfortunately hunter's mark isn't available for magic initiate because rangers don't have cantrips.

PREEDIT: Slightly ninja'd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 01:14:33 pm

Quote from: Biowraith on October 31, 2018, 11:51:00 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 09:11:59 am

Been fiddling around with the idea of a Monk with the Magic Initiate feat picking up Hex from the Warlock list.

Originally the idea was to inflict disadvantage on saving throws

Note: Hex doesn't give disadvantage on saving throws, only ability checks (which does include skill checks).

Ach! Indeed, I seem to have misread that one. Might've mixed it up with Bestow Curse or something... Hex is still pretty baller, even without imposing saving throw disadvantage. Guess that pushes the focus for Hex-dipping even further away from Elemonk, eh?


Reading about some of the rules clarifications that have bounced back and forth between the community and WoTC... Stuff like how Crossbow Expert only works for one shot if you're wielding a crossbow together with another weapon since you "can't reload it" (but that it works just fine when used by itself), and how nets are specifically made to always be at a disadvantage. And then there's the weirdness with using bonus actions between primary action attacks if you have Extra Attack from somewhere... Always nice when the official answers end up talking past the question that gets posed.

And then there are the questions as to what happens when an Eldritch Knight tries to use Weapon Bond on, say, a net. Or bend the definitions of "improvised weapon" and bond a boulder. Or a dead body.

Quote from: Kadzar on October 31, 2018, 12:10:53 pm

-snip-

I dunno, for me Conjurer primarily seems to be about A) conning merchants with a limited-time-offer lump of pure gold, and B) being able to retain concentration on conjuration spells regardless of taking damage.

That first point is bound to backfire sooner or later, if it fires at all, but the second point is pretty solid if you're using your concentration on conjurations. As for minor conjuration cover, yeah, dunno... A 3' by 3' sheet that's a quarter-inch in thickness would apparently weigh slightly over 92 pounds, if we're going by the values Google presents for their real-world weights, heh. You'd also have had to have seen the "item" before, and I don't know if that specifically defines the material of the item or not... Otherwise you could go for a really thin sheet of mithral (1/2 the weight of iron, if going by comparative armor weights), despite never having seen "mithral" and "sheet" qualities in the same object.

Seems to mainly be about copying keys, fooling the gullible (it's visibly magical, so make an amulet of invisibility and sell it to someone. When it disappears an hour later, tell them it's working), and causing banana peels to suddenly pop into existence in front of marching soldiers. For cover, I'd just as soon use Minor Illusion (...sure, it doesn't actually stop anything going through it, but the archer looking for you doesn't need to know that).

And as for Hex vs. Bane/Bestow Curse, the biggie is of course that there's no save offered. The fact that it's also a bonus action, and can be re-applied with a bonus action during its 1-hour duration if the previous target drops to 0 HP, well... That's just gravy, and makes it very nice for the limited nature of the Magic Initiate slot. The fact that it doesn't give saving throw disadvantage is honestly fine, being able to pump out +1d6 necrotic damage with every attack is still huge.

Abjuration specialty, eh... The ward seems a bit flimsy to be honest, but every little bit helps, I guess. But the level 10 of adding proficiency to ability checks when casting spells is awesome. At level 10 that's a +4 increase, which is pretty sizeable when using Dispel Magic/Counterspell to break something down. The level 14 bonus is some ridiculous spell defense, and further solidifies the Abjurer's role as a wizard duel champion.

Personally, for a Xanathar-imbued melee caster, I think I'd rather go sorcerer due to being able to use Twinned/Quickened metamagic with melee spells. I've been looking at the dwarf angle for that myself, hehe... A level of fighter is of course going to give the better stuff overall, but if levels are tight I can see dwarfiness being useful instead. Xanathar also allows for the Divine Soul sorcerer, which is all sorts of silly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 31, 2018, 01:24:05 pm

oi lads pitch me some suggestions for what pact i should pick as a 5e warlock, i'm leaning towards the Blade pact

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 01:50:08 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on October 31, 2018, 01:24:05 pm

oi lads pitch me some suggestions for what pact i should pick as a 5e warlock, i'm leaning towards the Blade pact

Depends. Which books are you running with? With Xanathar's, a Bladelock can do just fine with the Hexblade subclass, getting up to some pretty funny damage potentials all depending on how you run with it. Pretty squishy, but at higher levels you can stack damage boosts for some good times.

Without Xanathar, Bladelock doesn't really have much of anything going for it. The subclasses aren't particularly synergistic, and lots of good blade invocations  (Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite, optionally stuff like Aura of Flies) just don't exist, meaning Blade pact without Xanathar can't do much of anything except take Fiend's Sight, cast darkness on themselves, and poke people with a reach weapon.

Chain pact has... I'm not sure, really. You can make an attack with the familiar, which isn't something you'd want to do pretty much ever. The different forms have some interesting applications though, such as the imp with its resistances and immunites (and speech), minor shapechanging, and invisibility. As for invocations, there's ah... Well, not a whole lot. It's basically just a way of getting Find Familiar without burning a feat on it. Except...

Tome pact has an invocation that lets you learn and cast rituals, meaning you can learn Find Familiar as a ritual and then cast it. You don't get the special forms or the ability to make an attack, but eh. Tome also gives you three bonus cantrips from any spell list, which is pretty sweet. When taking the aforementioned invocation, you also learn two rituals of your choice to get your collection started. Aspect of the Moon invocation (Xanathar's) prevents you from being magically forced to sleep, and you can stand watch for an entire long rest and still gain benefits from it, but... Well, I'd call it situational.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 31, 2018, 02:00:02 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 09:59:15 am

Pssh, people are far too small to be able to be seen from one space ship to another!

Oh, but you don't need to see the person, only the flags. Petition to make 100 km-wide semaphore flags standard equipment on spacecraft now!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 31, 2018, 02:44:09 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 31, 2018, 02:00:02 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 31, 2018, 09:59:15 am

Pssh, people are far too small to be able to be seen from one space ship to another!

Oh, but you don't need to see the person, only the flags. Petition to make 100 km-wide semaphore flags standard equipment on spacecraft now!

Actually, you do; there are a couple sets of signs in flag semaphore (Q/V, J/P/U, Z/W, and H/O, I think) that have the flags in the same position relative to each other, differing only in their orientation to the ground and operator. There being no ground in space, seeing the operator would be even more important, if less practical.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 31, 2018, 02:44:42 pm

we're using all the books available (i am an undying warlock)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 02:57:14 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on October 31, 2018, 02:44:42 pm

we're using all the books available (i am an undying warlock)

Without the Hexblade's ability to use CHA for attack/damage, Blade pact loses a lot of its shine unless you're neglecting CHA in favor of your physical stats. So, if you are dropping CHA, then I guess you might as well go Blade pact. You'll be able to use your spell slots for smiting, since your offensive spellcasting won't be particularly great (lots of buffs still work fine with low spellcasting stats though, so there's that). I'd recommend picking up Devil's Sight in any case and laying down the odd Darkness here or there. Darkness doesn't care about CHA, and that combo is one of the few really good/useful things warlocks have a claim on besides just pew pewing eldritch blast. ...and your pew-pewing of eldritch bolt won't be optimal, so, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on October 31, 2018, 02:58:32 pm

I've got fairly solid Cha- it's my highest- but I thought I already could use it as my attack stat without being a hexblade? I'll check again, but alas

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2018, 03:03:38 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on October 31, 2018, 02:58:32 pm

I've got fairly solid Cha- it's my highest- but I thought I already could use it as my attack stat without being a hexblade? I'll check again, but alas

Nope, that's actually Hexblade-specific. Seems like it should be something native to the pact itself, doesn't it? But eh. Might be able to swing your DM around to letting you do that anyways.

Oh, right, funny thing... If you take pact of the tome, you can use Shillelagh as a Warlock spell. So if you really want to go a-whacking and the DM won't let you charm your way around a pact weapon, you can always pick up a club or quarterstaff and go to town. Won't qualify for any of the Blade Pact stuff (such as smiting/double attack/lifedrinker), but you'll at least be able to hit things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 31, 2018, 03:05:22 pm

Quote from: KingofstarrySkies on October 31, 2018, 01:24:05 pm

oi lads pitch me some suggestions for what pact i should pick as a 5e warlock, i'm leaning towards the Blade pact

In light of the recent grammar banter in whatever other thread, I want to make a capslock joke, but I just can't get it right

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Biowraith on November 01, 2018, 02:16:49 am

On Hex: it could actually be helpful for all that grappling that was discussed earlier - pick Str for disadvantage to all those Athletics checks (or if it's a Dex heavy opponent, hit that instead for Acrobatics).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 01, 2018, 04:23:29 am

Yeah, that's one of the topics covered in the Grappler's Manual. How much benefit it provides depends somewhat on how "intelligently" DMs like to play their creatures, but in general you're at least going to get some benefit out of it even if they do just immediately swap over to the other skill... At worst it's roughly a -2 point drop, at best the enemy has to decide between taking disadvantage or using a skill that's 7 points lower, or more.

It also beefs up the damage you do with unarmed attacks when kicking/headbutting a grappled opponent when you don't have any hands full.


EDIT: Huh... So if you go Tempest Cleric 2 and then switch over to Druid, picking up Circle of the Land (Mountain)... Once you hit Druid 5, you get access to Lightning Bolt, allowing you to expend Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity ability to deal max damage (for 8d6, that'll be 48 damage to everything in the line on a failed save, 24 on a success). You can then do it again after a short rest to recover your CD.

That's at CLevel 7, a whole 7 levels before an Evoker Wizard would be able to do the same. And there's no cap at using only a 5th-level spell maximum, so you could theoretically cast Lightning Bolt at 9th level for 14d6, 84 damage on failed save, 42 damage on success.

Certainly harder to hit multiple dudes than with fireball, especially with the Evoker's ability to sculpt spells, but it pops up a lot earlier and you'll be a fair bit less squishy than a straight wiz. ...don't get to add the +5 INT modifier to damage though, heh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on November 01, 2018, 10:09:29 pm

Do we have a dedicated thread for tabletop wargaming (other than 40k) or are such discussions supposed to go in here?
I'm pretty sure there was a separate wargaming thread at some point, but then some threads got merged or abandoned and I can't remember what search terms I'd want to use to find it in any case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 01, 2018, 10:36:07 pm

The "Tabletop Games" thread is still around, tho' mostly disused.  From a technical standpoint wargaming is not within the scope of the PNP thread however.

Edit: a few minutes of searching didn't turn up a specific wargaming thread, must have an unusual title if there is one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 02, 2018, 02:47:39 pm

Poked around wizard variants a bit more, discovered the weirdness of how Potent Cantrips and Empowered Evocations don't... Well... They don't actually work together. There are precisely two wizard cantrips that are both save-or-hit and evocation, and both were added by Xanathar's Guide to Everything. In the base game, Evokers can either get half cantrip damage on a successful save or add their INT modifier to it, but not both. And then there's the hilarity of how picking up Potent Cantrips can actually make a couple cantrips (such as Acid Splash) less effective in certain circumstances, due to them suddenly qualifying for blocking as per the Evasion or Shield Master abilities.

So, a little disheartened, I peeked at Illusionist. This led to a terrifying dive into the many, many arguments and inconsistencies regarding Minor Illusion, and illusion spells in general... It also led to me finding a comment from someone pointing out that Warlocks can get Minor Illusion along with an invocation that lets them cast Silent Image at will, making them kind of the better trickster character throughout most of the lower levels... They can't compete with greatness such as Illusory Reality, but unless you're specifically trying to avoid counterspells or something, there's not a huge difference between a cast Silent Image that later gets altered into a new form by Malleable Illusions and just a recast-at-will Silent Image via invocation... Malleable lets it happen with no outward signs of the caster doing anything, invocation lets you put a new image somewhere else rather than dragging the old one along.

When you get to higher levels and can have things like permanent-without-concentration images, the Creation spell and other goodies for the wiz, the Illusionist pulls ahead... As well they ruddy well should.

But yeah, oh man, so much disagreement over Minor Illusion... Definitely not the best-written spell.

Enchanters get a lot of not-exactly-great stuff until level 10, which is pretty great, but then the level 14 ability kinda goes back to "niche-at-best" usefulness.


So, yeah... Guess that leaves diviners, and the infinitely valuable ability to interject whenever someone else is doing something at the table by importantly yelling "I HAVE FORESEEN THIS MOMENT!"

Quote from: NullForceOmega on November 01, 2018, 10:36:07 pm

Edit: a few minutes of searching didn't turn up a specific wargaming thread, must have an unusual title if there is one.

_*cough*Tacticus?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 02, 2018, 05:48:06 pm

Transmuters have their own niche. The signature ability of changing materials seems weak with its limited duration and short list of possible targets, but it has some interesting tricks: turn part of a ship's hull to iron before a battle. Turn a silver ingot into wood and carve it into shape. Use rocks as firewood. Break through a stone door by turning it into wood. Weaken or strengthen a bridge's supports. Wood is definitely the material to use with Minor Alchemy.

The Transmuter's Stone has its own interesting effects, but it's hard to use cleverly with its strict list of uses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on November 02, 2018, 05:55:45 pm

Heh, that's probably the strength of roleplaying, even if the DM is relatively strict (our are pretty permissive).  I was a dwarf in heavy armor on a boat with a sword, Shatterspike, which always crits when it hits objects. 

And so when I was chased off the ship by a fearsome random encounter, and faced with drowning, I asked to stab my sword into the side of the boat as a handhold.

Eventually was thrown a rope - mid combat, and climbed it, to assist the party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 02, 2018, 06:27:25 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on November 02, 2018, 05:48:06 pm

Transmuters have their own niche. The signature ability of changing materials seems weak with its limited duration and short list of possible targets, but it has some interesting tricks: turn part of a ship's hull to iron before a battle. Turn a silver ingot into wood and carve it into shape. Use rocks as firewood. Break through a stone door by turning it into wood. Weaken or strengthen a bridge's supports. Wood is definitely the material to use with Minor Alchemy.

The Transmuter's Stone has its own interesting effects, but it's hard to use cleverly with its strict list of uses.

Ah yeah, Transmuters... Had forgotten about them. They popped up in the Grappler's Manual as something to keep an eye on, but primarily at high levels.

Basically, you could transform yourself or someone else into some incredibly beefy form, have them facetank everything for hundreds of hitpoints worth of damage, and then ZIP!, your stone could heal aaaaall those hitpoints back again. Or, provided you didn't have it meld into your new form, you could even do it to yourself.

Effectively gaining access to a nice little pocket-Power Word: Heal, a 9th level Bard spell, as a 14th level Wizard. Which is kinda neat. Having an effectively on-demand elemental resistance is also very handy, especially seeing as you can hand it off to someone else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 03, 2018, 05:38:36 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 02, 2018, 06:27:25 pm

Or, provided you didn't have it meld into your new form, you could even do it to yourself.

Nope, Polymorph requires concentration and thus might break when you get hit. Casting it on an ally is the better use.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 03, 2018, 07:47:25 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on November 03, 2018, 05:38:36 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 02, 2018, 06:27:25 pm

Or, provided you didn't have it meld into your new form, you could even do it to yourself.

Nope, Polymorph requires concentration and thus might break when you get hit. Casting it on an ally is the better use.

True, but with 20+ CON from your new form and potentially Warcaster, you stand a reasonable chance of passing most of the checks.

Although, that really only works for Shapechange, since I don't believe you get to keep feat abilities when just polymorphed... But yeah. In the event you can't find a fitting guinea pig to cast it on, and also manage to make enough concentration checks to lose a substantial portion of your health, it could be used for that... There are a few things in the Grappler's Manual that are a bit, well, hypothetical.


Was looking into blasty sorcerer fun, came across some arguments as to how draconic Elemental Affinity works with certain spells, as well as the much-more-confusing Twinned Spell metamagic. Sorc is starting to look more like an ultrabuffer to me, but there are still some shenanigans that can be pulled out with Empowered and/or Quickened Fireballs and some lucky rolls. Divine Soul is still ridiculous, but that's Xanathar's for ya...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on November 03, 2018, 08:20:43 am

Divine soul used to be really really ridiculous in the UA version, it got super toned down for Xanathar's, but it's certainly still pretty okay. I don't think it's completely crazy anymore, although the ability to have a cleric spell on your sorcerers spell list is pretty cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 03, 2018, 08:43:44 am

Multiple cleric spells at that. Cleric spells, which weren't designed or sorted with metamagic in mind... Distant Inflict Wounds, Twinned Guiding Bolt, using sorcery points to shuffle around/empower/twin healing spells, Heightened Bestow Curse, Distant Bane followed by Quickened Fireball? All sorts of nutty combos.

But yeah, UA version was definitely nuts. Divine Soul is now within somewhat more reasonable limits of nuts. Once-per-short-rest +2d4 to a failed saving throw is still pretty sweet for a first level ability, on top of Cleric+Sorc spell list shenanigans.


EDIT: Right, so, for the beginner's group, I'm kinda leaning towards druid. Specifically; Circle of the Moon, Variant Human picking up Charger at 1st level, high WIS and Shillelagh for when I'm not shaped.

All I know about the group is that the DM is inexperienced and the players are also either inexperienced or complete first-timers. I want something that can carry its own weight and preferably be able to fulfill some amount of a support/healing role just in case everyone does indeed end up acting like they have a deathwish (something which is only very slightly less common in more experienced groups).

At the same time, I don't want to have a character that's a bit too optimized and that bowls over encounters before anyone else gets a chance. That's not fun for anybody. Nor is a helicopter healer who heals everyone before they can taste a little risk.

Druid has some decent support/utility spells, and even gets Healing Word along with Cure Wounds. Charger is far from an optimized feat by any means, but it does gel a bit with some of the Wild Shape forms and Circle of the Moon shaping is already pretty hilarious at low levels as it is. It's a lot of single-target alpha strike ability, but it's not "I cast Fireball, thereby deleting the encounter". I'll even have good WIS for perception checks so we don't fall into quite as many pits. I'm also not quite squishy enough to warrant them having to look after me. Provided I don't get too cocky and sure of myself, that is... Definitely no guarantees there.

It's also single class and doesn't rely on too many confusing rules or wordings (the Crossbow Master bonus attack, Twinned Spells, or anything related to mounted combat on large creatures...), making things easier for the DM, and everyone else for that matter. Heck, I don't even know yet whether or not multiclassing will be allowed, or feats/Vuman for that matter. But it's a concept, at least... It can do a few things fairly well, and it's goofy enough to get me interested while also being punchy enough to appeal to my desire for combat optimization.


An alternative would be a Thief Rogue with Healer, taking advantage of the Thief's expanding upon Cunning Action. I just have a hard time balancing all the stats and skills as Rogue...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on November 03, 2018, 02:45:09 pm

Quote from: Kagus on November 03, 2018, 08:43:44 am

(something which is only very slightly less common in more experienced groups).

I believe that you mean only slightly more common.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on November 04, 2018, 04:26:42 am

So I've begun my homebrew city guard game, and here's the results of my group's characters:

Chaotic Evil Juggernaut Barbarian Caligni (dark-folk)
Neutral Evil Rogue Vishkanya (snake-person)
Lawful Neutral Cleric Dhampir (half-undead)
Neutral Good Warpriest Drow (dark-elf)
Chaotic Neutral Thundercaller Bard Gathlain (plant-person)
Chaotic Good Occultist Ratfolk (rat-person)

The rogue has already snuck away from the party during the first session and assassinated their prisoners messily.

I can't wait to see how much worse it can get for them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 04, 2018, 04:29:52 am

Quote from: Jimmy on November 04, 2018, 04:26:42 am

I can't wait to see how much worse it can get for them.

Who needs a BBEG when you've got players willing to do the job themselves? Efficiency.

Quote from: Egan_BW on November 03, 2018, 02:45:09 pm

Quote from: Kagus on November 03, 2018, 08:43:44 am

(something which is only very slightly less common in more experienced groups).

I believe that you mean only slightly more common.

That too, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 04, 2018, 04:38:30 am

Team Player Character-- Planar Police.

(Team of "Do gooders" cause more damage than they prevent, as they quest all across the material plane. See also, the amount of destruction done in the montage scene from World Police. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIPljGWGNt4))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 04, 2018, 04:05:53 pm

So, uh... If beholders manifest the substance of their dreams in reality, purely by virtue of having dreamt it...

...what happens if you cast the Dream spell and enter a beholder's dream to deliver a message? Does it make a copy of you? If you use the scary version, does it make a scary version of you?

Use beholders as a cloning pod and make an army of yourself to conquer save the world!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on November 04, 2018, 04:42:57 pm

I was just reading Deal with a Devil and now I want to play a 3.5 game that is a died of old age commoner sueing against being sent to hell on the basis of a leonine contract.

A pit fiend lawyer just cracks me up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 04, 2018, 05:00:33 pm

I'm assuming you're being literal

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on November 04, 2018, 06:06:22 pm

Yes and no. The mental image of a pit fiend in a snazzy suit roaring objection and rummaging through a file folder to present evidence is hilarious. And also my body is cracking send help.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 05, 2018, 03:15:25 am

Reminds me of that silly creepypasta about the sad cat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on November 05, 2018, 06:02:12 am

I actually had an entire encounter planned for my city guard game where the group could summon a devil and bind it in a contract to fight for them in exchange for a pint of blood per combat (1 Con damage per pint).

Sadly they just looted the room and destroyed the circle. Not sure why I expected anything different, to be honest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on November 05, 2018, 07:58:45 am

Quote from: Jimmy on November 05, 2018, 06:02:12 am

I actually had an entire encounter planned for my city guard game where the group could summon a devil and bind it in a contract to fight for them in exchange for a pint of blood per combat (1 Con damage per pint).

Sadly they just looted the room and destroyed the circle. Not sure why I expected anything different, to be honest.

Wouldnt' have made a difference here, but I prefer to keep consequences unknown.  That way you can pull plot shit out later and claim it was all planned from the start.  My Seventh Sea group have no idea that i'm laying down train tracks like a looney toons episode, with only the vaguest of plans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on November 06, 2018, 06:35:02 am

Oh, I've got a PhD in DM bullshittery, but I still like to be prepared in case by some miracle the plot doesn't jump off the rails, catch on fire and plough through an orphanage.

Anyway, we'll see whether the team of six plucky 1st level guards can stand up to a 4th level mite druid summoning swarms down on them while his dragonfly animal companion eats their faces off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on November 06, 2018, 01:19:03 pm

Quote

six 1st level guards

Okay

Quote

swarms

Now what in tarnation

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on November 06, 2018, 01:22:48 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on November 06, 2018, 06:35:02 am

Oh, I've got a PhD in DM bullshittery, but I still like to be prepared in case by some miracle the plot doesn't jump off the rails, catch on fire and plough through an orphanage.

Anyway, we'll see whether the team of six plucky 1st level guards can stand up to a 4th level mite druid summoning swarms down on them while his dragonfly animal companion eats their faces off.

That build sounds pretty buggy.

I think swarms aren't as bad in 5e, right?  They just have weapon resistance instead of nearly-blanket immunity?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 06, 2018, 01:29:40 pm

Resistance to piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage (magical or non-magical), immunity to the charmed, frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, prone, restrained and stunned conditions, and a significant amount of hitpoints and damage for something that CR.

So not the full horror of the swarm, but still kinda mean.


God, I remember Incursion with its swarms of monkeys... Proximity disgust, general swarm intangibility/beefiness, and they'd steal your items.


EDIT: Dammit, I did not need to go reading longwinded and completely plausible P&P roleplaying stories...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 09, 2018, 09:28:37 am

I have been thinking more on the "Wizard creates awakened creature" problem posted previously, and have questions..


in addition to somehow getting Comprehend Languages cast onto the creature, so that it can read the +2 INT buff book (and thus potentially gain a language comprehension) there is also the potential to abuse a sentient item, if you roll high enough on its communication ability roll. Per the item creation rules for 5e, the potential to create an item that is able to read and comprehend a language, AND communicate telepathically with the wearer exists.

Now the question: Is it possible for the item created to be able to communicate in 2 languages?

If yes, this is the easiest way to accomplish the prior goal I think. (Pick common for the language it can read, and give it sylvan for the language it uses to communicate telepathically.) Make it an INT +2 circlet, and call it something like "Circlet of bestial tutoring" or something.  Bonus is that it could be used by either humanoids that lack sylvan, or by animals that lack common.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on November 09, 2018, 09:55:58 am

The problem with sentient magic items is that their specific mechanical properties are explicitly a matter of DM fiat, as is whether or not players can create them at all. Since some forms of telepathy in 5e require the subjects to share a language, others only require that they speak a language, and still others just require that they have an Int score, whether or not items can work as animal translators is effectively outside the rules.

If we're down to DM fiat anyway, we may as well just ask to play a talking dog or whatever directly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 09, 2018, 10:41:53 am

AH HAH--

https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/helm-of-comprehending-languages

BINGO.


That one seems to be in the base DMG item list. :D  Put that sucker on the critter, and ask them politely to read the +2 int buff book.

(Or, put it on the creature, dominate them with dominate creature, then command them to activate the helm and read said book, in that order.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on November 09, 2018, 11:23:22 am

Quote from: wierd on November 09, 2018, 10:41:53 am

AH HAH--

https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/helm-of-comprehending-languages

BINGO.


That one seems to be in the base DMG item list. :D  Put that sucker on the critter, and ask them politely to read the +2 int buff book.

(Or, put it on the creature, dominate them with dominate creature, then command them to activate the helm and read said book, in that order.)

This is how Utahraptors with knowledge they aren't meant to have and are supremely pissed about being forced to know are born.

... New BBEG idea!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 09, 2018, 11:59:42 am

The costs of how to train your dragon dinosaur are going to be extraordinary.  The helm is uncommon, and the skill book is rare.  Creating the needed items with the create wondrous item feat is going to be hella expensive, and getting them from a store is going to be very much DM discretion...  (most likely NO, if they know what you are planning. This has "DM headache" written all over it.)

But, I suppose this DOES satisfy the original question--- how to awaken an animal without the Awakened feat, using core rules, though.  The resulting animal will not be able to speak though, only understand and read.  I will find a way for them to speak as well... give me a bit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on November 09, 2018, 12:03:43 pm

Quote from: wierd on November 09, 2018, 11:59:42 am

The resulting animal will not be able to speak though, only understand and read.  I will find a way for them to speak as well... give me a bit.

Only by virtue of the helm, I'm afraid. Languages are no longer tied to Int, but to race and background, so a dog with Int 3+ still has no way of nonmagically understanding anything but barking.

EDIT: You'll also need to go the Dominate Monster route, since the creature can't understand how to activate the magic item that lets it understand your request. That means using six ninth-level spell slots over six days and hoping it never passes a Wisdom saving throw or, less likely still, getting multiple level 17+ wizards to work together and give up a once-in-a-century +2 int to an animal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 09, 2018, 12:10:10 pm

Clearly, we must train the dog until it attains one level of barkbard.

Then the dog can act as an intermediary between us and the raptors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 09, 2018, 12:15:02 pm

I would think similar rules for playing an outsider, or a monster (like a mind flayer) could be used for playing a more mundane animal, at least to get it some character levels in a profession. 

Once it gets a few levels, it can take a standard feat, like linguist, and then bob's your uncle.

Gives you 3 languages straight up (and should thus grant ability to talk), and 1 int.

Quote

Linguist

You have studied languages and codes, gaining the following benefits:

    Increase your Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
    You learn three languages of your choice.
    You can ably create written ciphers. Others can't decipher a code you create unless you teach them, they succeed on an Intelligence check (DC equal to your Intelligence score + your proficiency bonus), or they use magic to decipher it.

The helm is a gateway drug. :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on November 09, 2018, 12:19:19 pm

Quote from: Kagus on November 09, 2018, 12:10:10 pm

Clearly, we must train the dog until it attains one level of barkbard.

Then the dog can act as an intermediary between us and the raptors.

Bard might not be the best choice, as dogs have 7 charisma. They'd make better druids, with 12 Wis.

Thus, at second level, we have a dog that can magically transform into a dog.

EDIT: Yeah, Linguist would work once you get it trained. Might be easier to get past a DM with something like a raven, for mimicry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 09, 2018, 12:57:11 pm

You could hit them with Tongues instead of Dominate Monster.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Tongues#content

Does not grant ability to read, but the helm does.  While under the influence of Tongues, its barking is magically intelligible to intelligent creatures. (so, it can speak, after a fashion.)  It can then understand the request to activate the helm.

That is only a 3rd level spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on November 09, 2018, 01:49:25 pm

Quote from: wierd on November 09, 2018, 12:57:11 pm

You could hit them with Tongues instead of Dominate Monster.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Tongues#content

Does not grant ability to read, but the helm does.  While under the influence of Tongues, its barking is magically intelligible to intelligent creatures. (so, it can speak, after a fashion.)  It can then understand the request to activate the helm.

That is only a 3rd level spell.

Well, if we're assuming our hypothetical caster can convince an animal to spend eight hours a day doing memory and logic exercises (absent the puppeteer mode of Dominate Monster), then they may as well use Speak with Animals, which is a 1st level spell. Activating the helm is presumably a small task.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 09, 2018, 01:55:21 pm

It depends on the relationship between the wiz and the creature, sure.

Also, if there are any treats involved.  Dogs put up with a lot of shit learning stupid tricks for treats.

Also, we really only need 1hr a day, since we have several WEEKS we can spend, and still satisfy the requirements for the book with time to spare.


There's all kinds of fun that can be had with the animal while under the influence of Tongues, that would be fun for both master and creature, especially if there are other apprentices involved.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on November 09, 2018, 02:01:32 pm

Quote from: wierd on November 09, 2018, 01:55:21 pm

Also, we really only need 1hr a day, since we have several WEEKS we can spend, and still satisfy the requirements for the book with time to spare.

How do you figure that? The entry for the Tome of Clear Thought says a creature needs to spend 48 hours studying it and practicing its guidelines over a period of 6 days or less.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 09, 2018, 02:05:19 pm

You are right, I must have misremembered. 

However, 4 hrs a day will do it in the 6 day window exactly.  The 4 hours need not be contiguous.  There could be breaks, and playtime.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 09, 2018, 10:53:40 pm

Quote from: wierd on November 09, 2018, 12:15:02 pm

I would think similar rules for playing an outsider, or a monster (like a mind flayer) could be used for playing a more mundane animal, at least to get it some character levels in a profession. 

Once it gets a few levels, it can take a standard feat, like linguist, and then bob's your uncle.

Gives you 3 languages straight up (and should thus grant ability to talk), and 1 int.

Quote

Linguist

You have studied languages and codes, gaining the following benefits:

    Increase your Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
    You learn three languages of your choice.
    You can ably create written ciphers. Others can't decipher a code you create unless you teach them, they succeed on an Intelligence check (DC equal to your Intelligence score + your proficiency bonus), or they use magic to decipher it.

The helm is a gateway drug. :D

That'll take at least 4th level, since RAW the only way to get a feat before then is to be a Variant Human. However, there are other options.

Assuming we can't use backgrounds (because that's too easy), going through the classes in order, the first one that will give you a language is a Cleric of Knowledge Domain. It feels kind of iffy that any god would not only accept such an abomination against nature but also make them a chosen instrument of their divine will, but I suppose if any god would, it would likely be a god of knowledge.

Next, as a technical qualifier, is Druid, which grants proficiency with the Druidic language. It has very few speakers, but it's something. Also, Wildshape could potentially be used to transform into something with better communicative abilities, such as cranium rats, which can communicate telepathically.

So long as we qualify the goal to be a language before 4th level, Fighter is next at 3rd level, with both Cavalier and Samurai granting the ability to learn either some sort of skill or a language. Either sounds fantastic with a deinonychus, but I think Cavalier is the more hilarious option, because it's explicitly made for mounted combat.

After that, we skip a couple until we get to Ranger, which may be my favorite option, because it gains it's language through Favored Enemy, or, in other words, it hates someone or a group so much that it learns a language out of pure spite. Honestly, this seems very fitting for the subject in question.

After that is Rogue, which like Druid has is a technical qualifier with Thieves' Cant, so it can only talk with shady individuals, and it takes 4 times longer to communicate an idea that usual. Then, at 3rd level, it can pick up 2 languages by becoming a Mastermind (which is hilariously ironic, considering it will likely have am incredibly low intelligence barring a considerable investment in Tomes of Clear Thought).

Then there's Sorcerer of the Storm Sorcery origin, which just gives you access to Primordial. So you can speak with elementals and people who know Primordial. So possibly only slightly better than 1st level Druid or Rogue.

Warlock doesn't seem to actually grant any actual speaking ability, but it's very good for telepathy and reading. So the most direct way to go is form a pact with a Great Old One to pick up at will telepathy at level 1. Then, at level 2, when you first learn invocations, you might as well pick up Eyes of the Rune Keeper, so you can read ALL the language. Then, at level 3, when you get to pick up a Pact Boon, Chain is a pretty good option, since you can pick up a familiar capable of speaking Common for you (or a Pseudodragon to extend your telepathic communication to 100 feet).

And then I guess that's it (I thought there might be something in Wizard, but the closest is Divination School gaining the ability to be able to read all languages at level 10).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 10, 2018, 12:47:13 am

The plan I had in mind, involved "downtime gain +2int", with "Quest companion" that gets Tongues cast on it regularly. That way it could work as the wizard's protector and confidant, without being an actual familiar.

It could thus rely on the attending wizard, (and the rest of the party if applicable), to gain requisite experience.  If the rest of the party is at pretty high level, the XP gain per encounter would be absurd, and as long as it participates in some fashion in the encounter, it should get a slice.   It could theoretically reach level 4 fairly quickly if put into a high level party, and used wisely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 10, 2018, 09:12:11 am

Okay, so... Let's say Ranger X with either a level of Rogue or just spending a feat on Prodigy. Pick up expertise in Perception and the Observant feat. Max out Wisdom (want a combat stat too? Too bad, take Shillelagh as yet another feat or just suck it up).

In your favored terrain at level 20, you now have a passive Perception roll of 10+12+5+5 = 32.

Proceed to never be able to sleep again, since you hear everything.


Or you could just decide to cultivate an antimagic moustache as a Gnomish Paladin and enjoy advantage on mental saves vs. magic and also add your CHA mod to them. The +2 Int will really be useful here, as you're gonna need to be pretty damn smart to figure out how you're gonna do anything as a pipsqueak pally.


EDIT: As an aside, anybody else get a bit disappointed by reading some grand tale of tabletop nonsense, getting into it, and then uncovering that it's blatantly a fabrication? Bleh... I'm not even halfway through yet, there's still at least like thirty chapters to go.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 10, 2018, 12:33:15 pm

Which one might that be? The only long running game tales I'm aware of at the moment are Steelshod and the All Guardsman Party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 10, 2018, 01:17:50 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on November 10, 2018, 12:33:15 pm

Which one might that be? The only long running game tales I'm aware of at the moment are Steelshod and the All Guardsman Party.

I'm reading "Memories of a Stone Wall", which starts off at least somewhat pretending to be an in-character account of a Legend of the Five Rings campaign. It becomes fairly obvious fairly quickly that it's just an exceptionally long fictional greentext.

I also got finished reading The Industrious Rogue for the first time a few days ago, which spurred the interest in reading more tales of craziness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on November 10, 2018, 04:40:25 pm

Deinonychus Cavalier 1/Ranger 1/Druid however many. Rides a Tyrannosaurus into battle, learned languages out of spite, and summons swarms of velociraptors as it's primary combat role.

This would be the most Crazy Awesome BBEG ever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 10, 2018, 05:40:50 pm

BONUS points, if it places the helmet ON the T-Rex, and has initiated the training process on its mount.

(Imagines tiny fireballs shooting from short stubby T-Rex arms, followed by horrible biting.)

(See also, Master-Blaster (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgq4w4dqKsU), Dinosaur style--)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on November 10, 2018, 06:32:08 pm

Deinonychus Cavalier 1/Ranger 1/ Druid 10

Tyrannosaurus Wizard 10

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 10, 2018, 07:17:58 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on November 10, 2018, 06:32:08 pm

Deinonychus Cavalier 1/Ranger 1/ Druid 10

Tyrannosaurus Wizard 10

It has to be at least Cavalier 3, since Fighter can't pick up archetypes until 3rd level, but otherwise good. Honestly, the Deinonychus stats are even pretty good for these classes, and you'd only have to bump up the wisdom 1 point to make it work with multiclass rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on November 10, 2018, 08:34:32 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on November 10, 2018, 07:17:58 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on November 10, 2018, 06:32:08 pm

Deinonychus Cavalier 1/Ranger 1/ Druid 10

Tyrannosaurus Wizard 10

It has to be at least Cavalier 3, since Fighter can't pick up archetypes until 3rd level, but otherwise good. Honestly, the Deinonychus stats are even pretty good for these classes, and you'd only have to bump up the wisdom 1 point to make it work with multiclass rules.

Well for my scaly BBEG we can easily set him at Cavalier 3/Druid 10, assume that first level 4 point is WIS plus maybe a few booster items easily affordable with level 13 cash. Then bring on the Dinopain.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 12, 2018, 01:40:59 pm

I love this. (http://www.filmreroll.com/?p=220)

DM says "let's run through Teen Sex: The Movie!" and comes up with lots of love mechanics and interpersonal connections between the PCs.

Actually puts the characters through Friday the 13th.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 12, 2018, 03:31:34 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on November 12, 2018, 01:40:59 pm

Teen Sex: The Movie!"

Just a heads up for everyone: this is not a real movie; do not Google this phrase if you're at work or whatever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 12, 2018, 03:54:18 pm

Yeah. Paraphrased. Sorry. The faux title was mentioned somewhere in the video but I didn't want to click around to find it. If you've seen modern "party teens" slasher flicks, you can probably get the gist of what the movie is supposed to be about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 12, 2018, 04:29:44 pm

I think he called in Summerspell in the podcast. I listened and enjoyed this for 5 minutes, and I'll probably check out the rest pretty soon. Is anything else they've worth listening to too, out of curiosity?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 12, 2018, 04:35:07 pm

Jumanji and Back to the Future were pretty good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Tack on November 12, 2018, 04:59:11 pm

Ahem: PTW

Also i’ll be testing out the PF2.0 beta sometime in the next weeks so that’s neat.
Still would probably rather play dnd5 though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 29, 2018, 09:49:49 pm

Just remembered this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151000.msg7477979#msg7477979) campaign setting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164451.msg7480295#msg7480295) that was devised in this thread last year, and disappointed that no one thought to refer to it as bloodpunk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 02, 2018, 03:07:25 am

Man, Volo's mansion was haunted as fuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 06, 2018, 11:47:55 am

I miss gaming. Maybe it's time for me to give up and join one of those annoying Discord communities on /r/lfg.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 06, 2018, 10:49:17 pm

hm (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=15.0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 06, 2018, 11:34:50 pm

It just isn't the same as a real tabletop in meatspace.  It just isn't.   

I lament being out in BFE for this single fact.   I really dont want to risk going to the various game shops in the nearest big city.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 06, 2018, 11:40:13 pm

Nothing online is the same as sitting down at a table with people. You might get like 40% of that experience with VR and a virtual table, but eh.

There are still things I prefer about play by post. Having time to think without holding everyone up, for one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2018, 05:07:57 am

I'm not sure we even have any physical stores that cater to pen and paper games or gamers... Still plenty of board games being offered, but I've never seen a dice set that wasn't attached to a Yahtzee scorecard.

I need to find a place to pick up some dice, and the 5e PHB... At the moment, it looks like that pretty much just means ordering off of Amazon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 07, 2018, 06:33:03 am

Do you live anywhere even close to a big city?

Wichita hardly counts by most global standards, but it has at least 5 of them that I know of for sure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2018, 06:35:10 am

Culture diffrerences

Also city size differences

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2018, 06:44:59 am

Quote from: wierd on December 07, 2018, 06:33:03 am

Do you live anywhere even close to a big city?

Wichita hardly counts by most global standards, but it has at least 5 of them that I know of for sure.

I live smack in the middle of one of Norway's larger cities, and I'm about 40 minutes out from the capital. It's possible there are some more spots catering to P&P in Oslo, but I'm honestly not that familiar with the area. Around here it mostly just seems to be bookstores that sideline in Settlers of Catan and Monopoly, and I certainly can't remember seeing any handbooks in those stores... At least not any relating to topics outside of knitting and camping.

Supposedly Drammen actually has a fairly large active DnD community, as according to the one fellow I talked to about it. But he was reasonably drunk at the time, so he may just have been referring to himself...

I asked the beginner GM I know where he got his stuff, and he said he just ordered everything online. And he's just moved here from the capital, so there's that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on December 07, 2018, 07:19:59 am

I live in a small city (125k), and we've got shittonnes of games. 2 of my 3 weekly games are meatspace (none of them running the same system), and there are a few i'm not playing in because i'm already playing in the others.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2018, 07:27:02 am

Quote from: Rowanas on December 07, 2018, 07:19:59 am

I live in a small city (125k)

eye roll on floor laughing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2018, 07:35:03 am

Yeah, the capital city (which is by far the densest population center) in Norway has under 700,000 inhabitants. Drammen has a tenth of that, give or take a couple thousand.

The entire country only has about 5 million people, y'know... We've got more coastline than the entire continental US (although fjords are kinda cheating), and fewer people than New York City.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 07, 2018, 10:08:46 am

Neat but goofy thing I saw pointed out over on Giantitp. The Warforged Envoy subrace for D&D 5e can have one integrated tool of it's choice, in 5e one of the entries in the tools table on page 154 is 'Vehicles (land or water)'. So you could technically make a warforged who is also a boat or a wagon.

Honestly probably less problematic for balance than most other tools, but I imagine it could cause issues with doorways.

It can also have one of the gaming sets integrated into it, which begs questions about how integrated dice or cards work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 07, 2018, 10:10:18 am

5e Transformers: Warforged in Disguise game when?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 07, 2018, 10:14:48 am

Problem there is the vehicles is just attached to one arm, it doesn't tuck away or get hidden or anything. It's just a boat attached to an otherwise normal warforged arm.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2018, 10:34:39 am

Make it a sky ship and he can fly

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 07, 2018, 11:40:26 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2018, 10:08:46 am

Neat but goofy thing I saw pointed out over on Giantitp. The Warforged Envoy subrace for D&D 5e can have one integrated tool of it's choice, in 5e one of the entries in the tools table on page 154 is 'Vehicles (land or water)'. So you could technically make a warforged who is also a boat or a wagon.

Honestly probably less problematic for balance than most other tools, but I imagine it could cause issues with doorways.

It can also have one of the gaming sets integrated into it, which begs questions about how integrated dice or cards work.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/yugioh/images/8/8c/Yusei_Duel_Disk.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2018, 03:41:05 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2018, 10:14:48 am

Problem there is the vehicles is just attached to one arm, it doesn't tuck away or get hidden or anything. It's just a boat attached to an otherwise normal warforged arm.  :P

I see no problem with this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2018, 03:49:46 pm

I've always wanted to punch people with a battleship.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Liber celi on December 08, 2018, 06:24:26 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2018, 10:08:46 am

how integrated dice or cards work.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xUy5eRI47yE/Wq4Jj5VILHI/AAAAAAAACvQ/nUyxDFdmSl4MxVEfCjAVg2zlKxicIaHhACEwYBhgL/s1600/IMG_1728.JPG)

Pnp-o-matic

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 08, 2018, 06:32:43 am

Imagine one of them keno devices, but with dice

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 08, 2018, 08:42:58 am

What if the chosen tool is brewer's supplies? I'm imagining that the warforged's torso is a barrel, with an appropriately placed tap...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 08, 2018, 08:46:05 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on December 08, 2018, 08:42:58 am

What if the chosen tool is brewer's supplies? I'm imagining that the warforged's torso is a barrel, with an appropriately placed tap...

So... Does he get turned on at bars?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 08, 2018, 08:49:10 am

I'd want taps placed as nipples

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 08, 2018, 11:00:31 am

Wizard: "I put tits on a snek!"
Artificer: "Hold my beer."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on December 08, 2018, 05:30:56 pm

Male Warforged Brewer: "Don't be a bigot, suck my spigot!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 08, 2018, 09:56:37 pm

We made Mutants and Masterminds characters tonight, it was more complicated than we expected.  We haven't done a point buy system quite like this, closest thing was probably Shadowrun.  Fun though.

Results of our rushed creation:

The player who always plays a bird:  Alivia "Rascal" Ornithrope:  A werebird who can travel 20,000 miles in 6 seconds

Me:  A hippie possessed a long dead storm god, Fallen London style.  Able to turn into a cloud and toss lightning and thunder about, or rain to heal people (even from death).

Spoiler: Except I kinda panicked when the game started, and we needed avatars (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/sZ1HeVJ.jpg)

And now I'm roleplaying Harold Penisman, except as a hero.  I drive a van full of free drugs, like insulin aspirin and dietary supplements.  And still turn into a cloud and try to zap people.

The necromancer player:  Bibleman.  Literally, Bibleman.

We're fighting "Brick Frog" and some Waaluigi-looking punk who's been spitting gum on the church pews.

and we've *almost* figured out how to roll attacks and damage

Edit:  Character sheet (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1773069), I thiiink it's fine?  Power Level is 8, so most things are capped at 16 and we had 120 power points to spend.

Edit2:  Satan-themed villain attacked me with fire, crit the attack roll, then crit the damage roll...  Then we worked out that it supposed to add 20, not 1d20, to the damage challenge.  Roll20, so helpful.

Edit3:  Bibleman player continues quoting the Bible, something about not killing birds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 09, 2018, 08:17:14 am

Sounds fun. MnM’s character creation is complex but very flexible, so you can come up with so many different kinds of heroes. I’m not sure what you’re saying about the crits and combat, though. MnM’s combat can take some getting used to. Do you mean that Mr Satan got a crit that bumped their damage into 20? That would be a ridiculous amount of damage for PL8. There’s no ’damage roll’ to crit anyway - rather the target gets to resist the attack’s damage, generally using their Toughness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 09, 2018, 01:18:57 pm

Yeah I explained that poorly of course
Mr Satin (in a devil outfit) rolled a 20 to hit, which was a crit.  That makes his damage 20+power instead of 15+power.  But the GM accidentally rolled 1d20+power out of habit... and rolled another 20, which we realized was accidentally the correct sum.

We fought a giant ice-cream dispensing mecha but I kinda OHKO'd it with my energy aura (it rolled a 1 or 2 for its toughness check).  We investigated the shop's freezer and the mecha exploded, trapping us in ice for three hundred years, ending the prologue section.  Now we're in a futuristic megacity which is, by kinda bizarre coincidence, in some ways similar to the Ultra-Liberal New World Order caricature the Chick Track was depicting.

Apparently they have an issue of too many "immigrants" from the past like us.  I'm... not sure why, considering they genetically spliced us back together from frozen DNA they found.  They could... not?  But I guess that's part of the caricature.

Oh and Bibleman couldn't handle this ultraliberal dystopia, but fortunately a hip future kid has taken up the mantle in this future.  Of course, there's a unified world religion now... so Bible Lad's quotes are... great XD

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on December 09, 2018, 02:54:39 pm

That sounds amazing. Your GM is clearly having way too much fun with their setting and I kinda want to steal that plot now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 09:14:48 am

So, question... Well, couple questions, actually.

In 5e, would you say that the ranger's/druid's favored terrain: Coast would count while the party is out at sea? Say, on a boat? It's not technically a "coast" as such, but coastal terrain seems like an extremely limited biome compared to the others, so I don't exactly see that little allowance being overpowered.


Also, how would you go about making a pirate-themed character? Xanathar's has stuff like the Swashbuckler archetype for rogues, which certainly matches from a titular standpoint, and a general rogueish nature does tie in with a piratical nature... But it's not particularly nautical. And also it requires Xanathar's, and I've been trying to limit myself to basic PHB for theorycrafting lately.

Rangers aren't particulary good in PHB, but you do get access to a favored terrain to make it seem like you actually know what you're doing when out on the open waters. The "Your group can’t become lost except by magical means" point in particular seems like it could be fairly useful/abusable in such a setting. You could even double down on your class's mediocrity by picking the Beast Master archetype, painting a raven in vivid colors and calling it a parrot.

Alternatively, call yourself a Bard and pull out an accordion for some shanties. Be brave, motherfuckers! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lofR-R_rFJ0) You're not exactly the best melee fighter, but you do get rapier and hand crossbow proficiency (no scimitars cutlasses, though), as well as all the usual nonsense that spellcasting affords you... Plus, College of Lore even has insult swordfighting! Doesn't really get more piratical than that, now does it?


You could probably also do a coast-favored druid of the land and flavor it as some sort of sea-witch, but that's sea-witches and not pirates.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 16, 2018, 09:23:03 am

Make a dexterity-based fighter with the sailor background, grab a scimitar and call it a cutlass, done. There isn't a lot of crunch to support a naval-themed character, so you just create a regular character and come up with the fluff yourself.

Also, if your campaign is set in the Forgotten Realms, fluff says that Storm Sorcerers are often hired on ships to keep the weather calm, so there's the obvious option for a spellcaster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 16, 2018, 10:14:12 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 09:14:48 am

In 5e, would you say that the ranger's/druid's favored terrain: Coast would count while the party is out at sea? Say, on a boat? It's not technically a "coast" as such, but coastal terrain seems like an extremely limited biome compared to the others, so I don't exactly see that little allowance being overpowered.

I would, yes, if I couldn't just add "aquatic" outright by fiat for some reason. That said, an aquatic ranger sounds more like a wayfinder than a pirate.

I'd probably use rogue with a sailor background for a stereotypically piratical pirate, with bards for the more technical members of the crew.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 10:48:12 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 09:14:48 am

In 5e, would you say that the ranger's/druid's favored terrain: Coast would count while the party is out at sea? Say, on a boat? It's not technically a "coast" as such, but coastal terrain seems like an extremely limited biome compared to the others, so I don't exactly see that little allowance being overpowered.

Seems to me, if you're in sight of land it's basically coastal sailing. I'd consider extending it beyond that to be houseruling. As for whether it's OP, depends on your campaign. If you're doing a super salty sea dog pirate campaign that only comes on land to bury treasure or exchange gold for rum, yes it's OP. If most of the adventure is on land and boats are only for transport, then definitely not OP. If you're doing a Voyage of the Dawn Treader type thing, then it depends how much the importance of terrestrial content is compared to marine encounters, but it should be fine since you can still use magical phenomena if you have something cool that requires the party to be temporarily lost.

Quote

I've been trying to limit myself to basic PHB for theorycrafting lately.

There is literally no reason to do this.

Quote

Rangers aren't particulary good in PHB

Yeah, don't use the PHB version. They were revised for a reason.

Quote

You could probably also do a coast-favored druid of the land and flavor it as some sort of sea-witch, but that's sea-witches and not pirates.

Sea witches and pirates go together at least as well as land witches and adventurers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 16, 2018, 11:13:36 am

What about sandwiches and desert raiders? Bringing some food on a long, hot journey seems smart to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 16, 2018, 11:37:30 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on December 16, 2018, 11:13:36 am

What about sandwiches and desert raiders? Bringing some food on a long, hot journey seems smart to me.

Do you want Fedaykin? Because that's how you get Fedaykin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 11:37:47 am

Quote from: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 10:48:12 am

Quote

I've been trying to limit myself to basic PHB for theorycrafting lately.

There is literally no reason to do this.

There is if you're feeling around for character ideas for a campaign that's only running PHB. Like, yeah, I could be using the expansions to think something up, but I'm not in a position to use any of those character concepts. Might as well keep myself in the "zone" of PHB-compatible design for the time being.

Quote from: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 10:48:12 am

Seems to me, if you're in sight of land it's basically coastal sailing. I'd consider extending it beyond that to be houseruling. As for whether it's OP, depends on your campaign. If you're doing a super salty sea dog pirate campaign that only comes on land to bury treasure or exchange gold for rum, yes it's OP. If most of the adventure is on land and boats are only for transport, then definitely not OP. If you're doing a Voyage of the Dawn Treader type thing, then it depends how much the importance of terrestrial content is compared to marine encounters, but it should be fine since you can still use magical phenomena if you have something cool that requires the party to be temporarily lost.

Well, favored terrain is always going to be of variable usefulness depending on the campaign, but most of the other terrain options are a lot more dynamic as far as inserting them into the setting. Forest, grassland, mountains, swamp, all of those are standalone environments that can be easily plopped into the path of the party. Desert and arctic are more climate-dependent, but both can still count for very large swaths of terrain. Underdark is a bit bizarre and is likely going to be all-or-nothing depending on whether or not you're in an Underdark campaign, but I suppose there's an argument to be made for classifying large caves as "Underdark".

Coast isn't really an environment, it's a transition between two environments. It'd be like if you had a "foothills" favored terrain and got a bonus in the region between mountains and grassland, but not in either of those places on their own... Except foothills would probably still cover a larger area than "coast". In and of itself, favoring coast terrain basically means you're really good at traversing the beach. Not the ground above the beach, and not the water beyond the beach. Which is extremely limiting as far as what you can do with it.

Would following a river count as "coast" terrain? That would help give it some use elsewhere, but that doesn't really seem to make sense with the name. Presumably you could count the coast of a large freshwater lake and not just be locked to saltwater transitions...


If we consider "coast" as also applying to journeys at sea, then it's in the same boat (ha) as the Underdark specialization: It's either massively useful because the game spends a lot of time in that terrain, or it's useless because the campaign doesn't deal with that area at all. It's not really something the DM can just "slip in" on the normal route to give the ranger a chance to be useful before moving on with the scheduled programming.

If we don't consider coast favor as applying to the sea, then it's worse than Underdark. If your campaign featured time at sea, you'd only have a bonus when getting on or off the boat, you wouldn't be able to help out either inland or at sea. It'd be like an Underdark-heavy campaign where you're especially effective right at the transition between the overworld and the underground, but not beyond that line in either direction. Neither inside nor outside, but straddling the middle.

Basically, Favored Terrain: Cat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 16, 2018, 01:11:10 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 11:37:47 am

Basically, Favored Terrain: Cat.

Favored Enemy: Mountains

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 01:14:21 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 11:37:47 am

a campaign that's only running PHB.

Subtly and respectfully tell the GM not to be such a fucking grognard.

Quote

Forest, grassland, mountains, swamp, all of those are standalone environments that can be easily plopped into the path of the party.

I mean, not really. Maybe it you're in a big karst mess like in south China, but even then it'll be weird to justify much.

Quote

Coast isn't really an environment, it's a transition between two environments.

All environments are transitional. Forests exist between valleys, with water tables too deep to sustain trees through dry seasons, and peaks, without soil for their roots. Mountains are the transitions, usually, from one plate to another. Swamps transition between land (or channelized river) and lake. Grasslands transition between forests and deserts.

Quote

A coast It'd be like if you had a "foothills" favored terrain and got a bonus in the region between mountains and grassland, but not in either of those places on their own... Except foothills would probably still cover a larger area than "coast". In and of itself, favoring coast terrain basically means you're really good at traversing the beach. Not the ground above the beach, and not the water beyond the beach. Which is extremely limiting as far as what you can do with it.

Foothills would be a fine zone, it's probably not included because they'll pretty much always be either grassy or forested, and because nobody really wants to adjudicate exactly where the foothills end and the mountain begins.

Coast presumably refers to the entire coastal zone, not just the beach, since it's called "coast" and not "beach". Which means it goes from the drop-off out at sea (potentially many miles) until the hills that lift the sea breezes. Also typically a fair few miles. It may tend to be narrow and linear compared to some potential regions, but you're still looking at an area that's going to take multiple days to cross on foot, in most places.

Quote

Would following a river count as "coast" terrain? That would help give it some use elsewhere, but that doesn't really seem to make sense with the name. Presumably you could count the coast of a large freshwater lake and not just be locked to saltwater transitions...

That would be a house-ruled addition, since it's "coast" and not "coastal, lacustrine, and riparian". Potentially appropriate for a non-coastal campaign, although then one wonders why you'd want that favored terrain in the first place.

Quote

If we consider "coast" as also applying to journeys at sea, then it's in the same boat (ha) as the Underdark specialization: It's either massively useful because the game spends a lot of time in that terrain, or it's useless because the campaign doesn't deal with that area at all. It's not really something the DM can just "slip in" on the normal route to give the ranger a chance to be useful before moving on with the scheduled programming.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable for it to be usable in coastal waters but not open ocean. Especially in a roughly medieval context before transatlantic voyages (and then even transpacific) became commonplace, taking your ship away from the coast would have been both rare and dangerous, making the ranger (who is presumably the ship's navigator) roll survival in that case is perfectly reasonable without invalidating his ability to navigate under normal circumstances.


tl;dr: I think you may be mixing up "coast" and "shore". The shore is the one that only goes from the low water mark to the high water mark, coastal regions are geographically extensive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 16, 2018, 01:30:22 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 01:14:21 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 11:37:47 am

a campaign that's only running PHB.

Subtly and respectfully tell the GM not to be such a fucking grognard.

Iirc it's as fresh dm. I'm getting he wants it that way for simplicity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 01:36:59 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 16, 2018, 01:30:22 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 01:14:21 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 16, 2018, 11:37:47 am

a campaign that's only running PHB.

Subtly and respectfully tell the GM not to be such a fucking grognard.

Iirc it's as fresh dm. I'm getting he wants it that way for simplicity.

Does he know about 5etools.com?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2018, 01:57:35 pm

That website is an handy resource, but its A. piracy, and there's people who care about that, and B. its got literally everything on there and that can be super overwhelming, which is not simple at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 03:11:46 pm

It doesn't show literally everything by default, and I don't see any way the information could be presented more simply than in lists. It also seems to have tacit unofficial approval from WotC since they haven't had it taken down or interfered with it in any way and don't have any official product which does a similar thing. Of course, that could end at any time, but if you have legitimate access to the content anyway, then the aid in presenting it in an easily utilizable fashion is perfectly above board. It's also legally ambiguous exactly how much of the text represents mechanics, which can't be copyrighted and therefore can't be pirated, although if you're concerned about such things you may want not to use the info tabs (where applicable, e.g. For races) and stick to the parts that which do convey only mechanical information.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 16, 2018, 07:39:51 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 03:11:46 pm

It doesn't show literally everything by default, and I don't see any way the information could be presented more simply than in lists.

The issue is more the volume than the presentation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 10:46:46 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 16, 2018, 07:39:51 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on December 16, 2018, 03:11:46 pm

It doesn't show literally everything by default, and I don't see any way the information could be presented more simply than in lists.

The issue is more the volume than the presentation.

For older editions I'd agree, but 5e only has between a fifthnand a third (depending on option type you look at) of its current content outside of core anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 17, 2018, 03:40:04 am

The "only PHB" policy is a little weird, but understandable. It makes me think, though: does anyone actually use the Starter Set, the one that only goes up to level 5 and only has one subclass per class? That seems like the thing for a group where no one has ever played any RPG...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 17, 2018, 08:17:56 am

Probably. I recall back when I used to play less with groups of friends and more with groups of casual gameshop acquaintances I played a similar product for 4e when it very first came out because we were all excited to play the new game and didn't want to wait for the time it'd take to make characters and figure out the rules and stuff, since we got hands on the game in the game shop, as we met each other for the day, and it'd take too much of our time together to make characters. These days, with longer running games with groups of friends and more out of game communication I don't think I'd use such a product, but I can imagine that people in a similar setting would play it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 17, 2018, 07:01:48 pm

Yeah, GM's new and is feeling a bit overwhelmed keeping PHB details in his head, plus he knows most of the group are also inexperienced and he doesn't want to make things overly complicated for them either. Plus plus he's dead set on the dreadful idea of weaving this upcoming campaign into the other campaign he's been running for a while, so that the two parties will influence each others' worlds, which means you can't really have different books for them... Those at least are the reasons I'm aware of offhand. I'll ask him about 5etools next time I talk with him.


As for pirate types, I completely forgot another important option... Roll up a monk and play the ship's cook!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on December 18, 2018, 12:20:57 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 17, 2018, 07:01:48 pm

As for pirate types, I completely forgot another important option... Roll up a monk and play the ship's cook!

That's good, because that's one of the classes that I had trouble coming up with a good idea for.

So, yeah, it's somewhat harder to fully realize a concept when limited to just PHB, but even if you don't have the exact right tool for the job, having a tool that will still do the job, just not as well, is still pretty good. So, here are some ideas I have for making the PHB classes piratical, or at least vaguely nautical. You'll probably want to also take the pirate or sailor background with these, and can probably take whatever race you prefer or need to enhance the build.

1. Barbarian: Honestly, a berserker isn't bad for a general brawler tough guy pirate, but I think the best theming here comes from eagle totem. When you take it at 3rd level, it gives you a lot of mobility and skirmishing ability that works well for a swashbuckling combat style. And at 6th level, it gives you great long range eyesight, perfect for someone who spends a lot of time at sea. Then, if you make it to 14th level, you get a limited flight ability, which can effectively be considered some sort of fantastic jumping ability if you want. It's either this or an aggro or a knockdown ability.

2. Bard: The nice thing about bards is that they have some capability in both weapon combat and spellcasting, and they can also take a few spells from other spell lists. As you've mentioned, you can either go Lore and do insult sword fighting, or go Valor and do actual sword fighting. I don't have much more to add, other than to share the spell list for a 15th level pirate-themed valor bard I made for a previous campaign.

Spoiler: Pirate spells (click to show/hide)

0. mending (for sails and such), message, mage hand, vicious mockery 1. thunderwave (tried to make damage spells vaguely sea/storm related where possible), shield (not especially piratey, but such a good spell), find familiar (parrot), dissonant whispers, cure wounds 2. invisibility, blindness/deafness, shatter 3. bestow curse (the black spot), fear, major image 4. Leomund's secret chest ('cause you gotta keep that booty somewhere), greater invisibility, dimension door 5. mass cure wounds, hold monster 6. programmed illusion 7. etherealness 8. tsunami

3. Cleric: I'll keep this short and say you probably want Tempest domain. Possibly Trickery instead if you want to play more of a trickstery bastard, but, yeah, this one isn't too complicated.

4. Druid: Circle of Land: Coast works pretty well for this, especially since there's nothing about it that says you actually have to be anywhere near a coast to use it. Alternatively, if you want to focus on turning into sea creatures, there's Circle of the Moon (you can still turn into them as a Land Druid, you're just not as good at it).

5. Fighter: Probably your best bet is to go Battlemaster and be the sort of pirate who uses a bunch of fancy tricks in combat to mess with your opponent. Most of the abilities are even named for fencing maneuvers, so this is a pretty good fit.

6. Monk: I personally didn't have any great ideas for monk, just going Four Elements and taking water and/or air abilities to focus on the sea theme.

7. Paladin: Paladins in the PHB really do not fit the pirate ideal. Vengeance is probably the only one that could possibly get away with being a pirate without breaking their oath.

8. Ranger: The matter of favored terrain has been discussed already and I really don't care to get into it. If you want to actually be competent, go Hunter. Theoretically you could go Beast Master and ride some sea beast, but, for some reason, they limited your beast to medium size at best, so you'd have to be large, and the only creatures in the Monster Manual with swim speed under the maximum challenge rating are giant crab, giant frog, and giant poisonous snake. If you can get your DM to allow creatures from Volo's Guide, there's also a dimetrodon and dolphin. Of those, probably only giant crab and dolphin make any sense. And, if you're limited to just core, then I guess congratulations on your giant crab companion.

9. Rogue: Swashbuckler is basically the ideal pirate rogue, but, if you only have PHB, a Thief can somewhat fill its place, with good mobility from Second Story Work and other abilities let them use their wits and subterfuge. Or you can be an Assassin if you like killing things before they react and dressing up, which I suppose can describe certain pirates.

10. Sorcerer: Since Storm Sorcerer is out, I suppose the most piratical option in the PHB is Wild Mage. Mostly focus on the idea of superstition and altering luck, along with adding thematic spells if you can.

11. Warlock: Yeah, I don't know, maybe go Great Old One and say your patron lives under the sea? Or maybe Fiend could work, since I think some pirates were thought to have some connection to hell. You at least have good access to spells involving tentacles.

12. Wizard: No option for wizard really calls out pirate explicitly, but you could probably make any School work. I suppose Diviner is good if you want a fortune teller sort of pirate or Necromancy if you want to be a voodoo priest. Probably the best thing for a pirate is the spell list, though you can probably take what you need of it as a bard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 18, 2018, 01:04:11 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 17, 2018, 07:01:48 pm

Yeah, GM's new and is feeling a bit overwhelmed keeping PHB details in his head

There's really no need to memorize all of the game's options. Even mechanics can be looked up as needed, though all of those aside from a few optional UA things are core anyway

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2018, 04:10:47 am

A monk of the way of the Shadow is practically a ninja, perfect for a pirate campaign.

I agree that paladin is tricky to make into a pirate, though the oath of the Ancients could maybe be a sort of CG "freedom of the seas" concept.

If you're weird and think a ranger riding a giant crab isn't awesome, you can grab a raven and call it a parrot, and also do that with any character that gets a familiar. A blood hawk also makes an interesting option. Look to the flying companions as well as the aquatic.

Transmuter wizard, ship carpenter. Can work with iron like it's wood, and vice versa, to create seamless wooden ships and carve some extra cannonballs in a stern chase.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on December 18, 2018, 04:15:32 am

Apparently Classic Traveller's gone free (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/80190/CTSTStarter-Traveller?manufacturers_id=4) (I wanna say again? I know I got it for free earlier and I think it might have not free sometime after that). Anyway, even if you don't plan to play, pick it up so you can see for yourself the game where you can die in character creation before the game even starts!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 18, 2018, 04:28:10 am

I feel like paladin could do pretty well as a pirate hunter, an officer hell-bent on ridding the sea of the uncouth rogues. Oath of Vengeance with "pirates" as your sworn enemy.

With paladin MAD-ness basically necessitating the use of heavy armor, it kinda fits in a bit with the different methodisms and equipment naval officers would use as opposed to the more casual, every-man-for-himself pirates. At least, that's my take on it. Wearing full chain on a boat is still kind of a bad idea.

Not really a pirate, but pirate-adjacent. Much like sea-witches.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2018, 04:34:58 am

Paladin MADness? You only need charisma and strength or dexterity, as well as a non-dumped constitution for your primary party roles. A dexterity-based paladin in light armour is very viable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 18, 2018, 04:36:43 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2018, 04:10:47 am

A monk of the way of the Shadow is practically a ninja, perfect for a pirate campaign.

What? Ninjas and pirates are opposites and sworn enemies of each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2018, 04:39:40 am

Yes, but there we have the Drizzt-clone rebel-against-their-own-kind character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on December 19, 2018, 06:48:28 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on December 18, 2018, 04:10:47 am

If you're weird and think a ranger riding a giant crab isn't awesome, you can grab a raven and call it a parrot, and also do that with any character that gets a familiar. A blood hawk also makes an interesting option. Look to the flying companions as well as the aquatic.

This is a hilarious bit too. Just have every NPC ask about the raven and the PC angrily insist it's a rare black parrot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 19, 2018, 07:17:34 am

"Norwegian Black Metal Parrot"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on December 19, 2018, 08:30:58 am

I'm currently playing Exalted with a Tyrant Lizard familiar (T-rex) It spits poison and has 6 limbs, but someone pointed out we're hitting a power milestone soon, at which point I'll be able to give it wings, and then I really will have a dragon as a pet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Teneb on December 19, 2018, 08:32:44 am

Quote from: Rowanas on December 19, 2018, 08:30:58 am

I'm currently playing Exalted with a Tyrant Lizard familiar (T-rex) It spits poison and has 6 limbs, but someone pointed out we're hitting a power milestone soon, at which point I'll be able to give it wings, and then I really will have a dragon as a pet.

Suddenly and in no way at all related to the quoted post I am interested in Exalted.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 19, 2018, 01:55:57 pm

Quote from: Rowanas on December 19, 2018, 08:30:58 am

I'm currently playing Exalted with a Tyrant Lizard familiar (T-rex) It spits poison and has 6 limbs, but someone pointed out we're hitting a power milestone soon, at which point I'll be able to give it wings, and then I really will have a dragon as a pet.

what's the point of a T-Rex with six limbs? They've already got twice as many as they really need with just the four.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 19, 2018, 01:58:48 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on December 19, 2018, 01:55:57 pm

Quote from: Rowanas on December 19, 2018, 08:30:58 am

I'm currently playing Exalted with a Tyrant Lizard familiar (T-rex) It spits poison and has 6 limbs, but someone pointed out we're hitting a power milestone soon, at which point I'll be able to give it wings, and then I really will have a dragon as a pet.

what's the point of a T-Rex with six limbs? They've already got twice as many as they really need with just the four.

Depends on the limbs, I suppose... If you get to pack on a couple powerful legs on it, it'd look pretty awkward, but can't very well say no to a kicking T-Rex now can you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 19, 2018, 02:30:26 pm

Quote from: Teneb on December 19, 2018, 08:32:44 am

Suddenly and in no way at all related to the quoted post I am interested in Exalted.

Oh, it's a wonderful setting, but it is extremely involved.

I've always wanted to run what would initially be a Mortals game starting on Luthe as a way to gently introduce people to the setting (via Orwellian dystopia, I admit, but still, that's at least quick to understand), but I've never had time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons (or just about any PnP game, really), share your experiences.
Post by: TWO CATATA on December 23, 2018, 06:09:53 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 23, 2016, 06:20:49 pm

The ventrue-malkavian, thinking herself to be an ancient Babylonian named Lilith, wrote those character in blood using 6 people as canvases

Clearly complete madness as no such person of that name ever existed, this can be safely redacted from your post.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on December 23, 2018, 08:15:53 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 19, 2018, 01:58:48 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on December 19, 2018, 01:55:57 pm

Quote from: Rowanas on December 19, 2018, 08:30:58 am

I'm currently playing Exalted with a Tyrant Lizard familiar (T-rex) It spits poison and has 6 limbs, but someone pointed out we're hitting a power milestone soon, at which point I'll be able to give it wings, and then I really will have a dragon as a pet.

what's the point of a T-Rex with six limbs? They've already got twice as many as they really need with just the four.

Depends on the limbs, I suppose... If you get to pack on a couple powerful legs on it, it'd look pretty awkward, but can't very well say no to a kicking T-Rex now can you?

I actually took it because it allows you to take multiple actions with smaller penalties. I still don't get to duplicate attacks, but now my dinosaur can devour the fallen as a misc action and still attack without suffering horrendous penalties.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on December 26, 2018, 12:46:56 am

So, I've been trying to find a good game system to use for a one-shot, one-on-one, play-by-post horror game, and finding one that does what I want has been surprisingly tough.  I think, ultimately, the problem is that I don't know exactly what I want...

The short version is that I'm going to be the GM and the single player will be navigating what amounts to a haunted mansion in search of someone who disappeared.  The more easily accessed parts of the mansion are just creepy, but deeper in are ghosts and zombies that could harm or kill the player.  I don't really want the player to use combat as a first solution to encountering said zombies though, and they may be unable to fight the ghosts at all.  I'm not sure where the missing person will be yet, exactly, and that was more of a reason to lure them into the house in the first place than anything.  The real mystery is learning why the mansion is haunted.

This is all an oversimplification, and it's actually a fantasy setting without even any humans.

Anyway, the problem I'm faced with is finding a system that will give the right level of tension but without undue risk of ending the game early because the single PC rolled badly in combat and died.  A secondary but still important concern is finding a system that can make the poking around outside of combat interesting.

I was considering GUMSHOE One-to-one (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/222071/Cthulhu-Confidential?filters=45614_0_0_44499_0_0_0) since it's designed for a single player and presumably handles the first problem well.  It's even designed for investigations, so it has the second bit covered.  But it's hard to tell how hard it would be to reflavor the game system, since it's pretty clearly intended to be a hard boiled detective game and not post-apocalyptic fantasy.

Kind of a niche question, but if anyone has suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 26, 2018, 01:38:21 pm

What's the name of the horror game you play with a Jenga tower? Probably not what you're looking for, but that made me think of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on December 26, 2018, 03:12:42 pm

Dread, and yeah, that was actually one I was really interested in.  But... I have no idea how to play it online.  There might be a Tabletop Simulator Jenga tower, but that would be hard to do with a play-by-post format on a forum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 26, 2018, 03:15:49 pm

Well, the point of Dread is having something that shows clearly that your next action may be your last. You could just roll d100s instead, and when they add up a certain number you die. Not quite the same, no, but a fairly good approximation, I think.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 26, 2018, 03:30:55 pm

I would be remiss if I didn't at least point out that new World of Darkness is designed to run precisely that sort of horror, and it's not got the rocket tag problem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on December 26, 2018, 07:13:01 pm

I tried looking it up, but what I found was a little confusing.  Looks like that's the Chronicles of Darkness book?  It also looks like there are quite a few settings / spinoffs of the World of Darkness setting and system, but is Chronicles of Darkness its own thing?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 26, 2018, 08:10:14 pm

Basically you've got Chronicles as the core rulebook for playing humans in the WoD, then the others as standalone expansions to play various supernatural beasties in the setting.

It used to be known as the New World of Darkness, but the system's undergone a few tweaks and renames. You've basically got the (Old/Classic) World of Darkness (1st edition) the New World of Darkness (2nd edition) and the Chronicles of Darkness (basically a 2.5 edition more than a 3rd as I understand it.)


I've played Vampire from early in the revamping of nWoD, when they were going to name all the splats 'Chronicles of  X' rather than 'X the Y-ening 2nd Edition,' but they changed their minds.

I thought it was an ok system. Plenty of neat mechanics, encouragement and discouragement to flow with your vices and weaknesses when it makes sense to. It's a good system for characters who're flawed and human, with their own little tragedies and sins and virtues.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 26, 2018, 08:30:16 pm

Quote from: Telgin on December 26, 2018, 07:13:01 pm

I tried looking it up, but what I found was a little confusing.  Looks like that's the Chronicles of Darkness book?  It also looks like there are quite a few settings / spinoffs of the World of Darkness setting and system, but is Chronicles of Darkness its own thing?

Basically, Chronicles of Darkness is the new name for the second edition (which totally redid the fluff), since they made a new version of the old edition, which is now seeing active support. It used to be that people just said new World of Darkness or old World of Darkness, but since that could be confusing to new players, they went ahead and made it even more confusing.

They do have a book (or multiple? I haven't followed the franchise closely this decade) with alternate settings, but the main splats (e.g. Mage: the Ascension, Changeling: the Lost, etc) each have rules, mechanics, and fluff for parties of specific supernatural beings. That likely wouldn't be what you're using, but the core book sets up nicely for mortals who merely encounter the supernatural.

There are two mechanical hurdles with WoD that I see. The first is that it's pretty drilled in to its modern fantasy setting, and you'd need to homebrew a bit to adapt it to your own setting. Those setting books I mentioned might help with that, but this is an area in which I don't have the knowledge to point you in the right direction.
The other problem is that it's not well balanced for one-shots. The most prominent mechanical pacing device is the slow slide into madness as you lose grasp of your humanity. So you'd want to come up with a way to adjust the speed on that according to your pace if you want it to be a theme - if not, all the supernatural splats tinker with how it works, so you definitely can too. But it's more to do, especially if you're not familiar with the system.

Although maybe I'm getting old, but it seems bizarre to me that someone would know relatively obscure systems like Gumshoe and Dread and not be familiar World of Darkness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on December 26, 2018, 08:45:59 pm

I played the original version of GUMSHOE because it had a free SRD and a friend recommended it, which is how I came to know about the one-to-one version.  No free version of that one though.  :(

I found Dread and a lot of indie games by researching the topic, but don't remember seeing World of Darkness specifically.  The sites I was looking at might have been indie biased.

That said, I've heard of Vampire and some of its spinoffs, but wasn't familiar enough to know that was the same as World of Darkness.

I'm kind of weird in my knowledge of game systems.  I mostly play GURPS and didn't even play Dungeons and Dragons until many years after first playing GURPS and the Star Wars D6 game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 26, 2018, 08:50:37 pm

Our group played New World of Darkness for... well since before June 2016, thanks for the unexpected quote TWO CATATA!  And yet I'm still not sure what the version is officially called.  My friends claim they understand, but they seem unable to give a straight answer without launching into a bunch of clarifications.

We played Vampire the Requiem and it was before Strix Chronicles.
Then we played a Demons game in the same system, where the Demons weren't rogue angels.  That book (The Possessed, I believe) was either officially unfinished or obviously unfinished

Fakedit:
Thanks for the second explanation, though my brain shuts down a little now whenever the topic comes up DX
The version we played...  Which might be Chronicles of Darkness, even though we called it New World of Darkness?  We didn't have beats, so maybe it was "NWoD 2nd edition"
I'm actually a little mad about this.  Marketing!  You had one job!
Well, that and do damage control over the Chechyna debacle...
Did White Wolf HAVE a marketting department?  I recall being particularly confused because they released two significantly different versions with identically-covered core rulebooks, except that the latter had the version number removed.

Well, they're being reorganized by their parent company Paradox now, due to that fiasco...

We were and are very happy with the New World of Darkness setting, though yes it is designed for modern fantasy.  Shooting someone is a huge deal, they're actually shot (unlike DND where everyone is surrounded in a shell of unexplained hitpointium which means whatever you choose it to mean).  If they're not supernatural, it's days of hospital care or back alley healing.
Which is usually for NPCs, PCs are usually supernatural, but we did a quasi-Hunter game which was mixed with Cthulhu investigation... that was an interesting campaign.

I like the dice system of it (roll successes, but with possibility of "explosion" on 10) which I feel adds to the "gritty realism".  We occasionally had very good plans fail spectacularly due to an enemy rolling fantastically well.  It's a critical system which is technically without limit, and can in practice occasionally go pretty far.  It's nice.
And it certainly rolls in our favor as well, and that feels just as good (or better).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: TWO CATATA on December 26, 2018, 09:39:02 pm

I looked at the chechnya thing and I don't understand the fuss, I feel like they might have been overwhelmed by ignorant American university students that don't actually know just how serious the stuff out in the world that happens outside outside the sanitised version they get from CNN or whatever, religious hitsquads (some of them following Islam, some Christianity, all over the world this kind of thing happens, it just so happens that Islam is the only one that has religious officials, the Mutaween, SERIOUSLY ACTIVELY ENDORSING AND HAPPENING RIGHT NOW witch hunting and murder with the aid of Iran government etc at this moment in history) hunting down lesbian gay bisexual trans ETC people to kill is very much a thing, and instead of sticking heads in the sand and sweeping uncomfortable truths under the rug because we're too scared to look at them, what was made world of darkness so amazing, is that it never used to shy away from turning a grisly light on the monstrous aspects of real humanity, that was the whole depth to it, the Greek tragedy of it all that ultimately the vampires in their inhumanity are all acting in ways that reflect on humanity itself. That's the real message behind it all I think and what's GOOD about it, in that it lets people look at things they might otherwise be uncomfortable to think about, experience, talk about - safely.

http://www.sanguinus.org has been running for decades it might be worth checking out, I think Vampire the Masquerade (the new one seemed too Twilight/New Blood soap opera'y from what I read of it, more focus on petty drama and less plot.. but I haven't read the NEW REVISED NEW NOT REALLY NEW one etc it all gets a bit tiring) was made for the internet really, it's just no hassle with bots to keep track of blood scores and willpower and working out automatically if your RP action was successful or not based on what dice you have and the difficulty, it gives the opportunity to go into the story I think

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IronyOwl on December 26, 2018, 10:22:26 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on December 26, 2018, 08:50:37 pm

Did White Wolf HAVE a marketting department?

They sure as hell didn't have an editing department.

(https://i.imgur.com/HnPjNGI.jpg)
Five words. Title on the cover.  Can we screw it up? Yes we can!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 27, 2018, 02:11:50 am

When it was White Wolf, they only had the new and old WoD. The newer editions of those two editions are both more recent than the company's cessation of existence. The new "White Wolf" is just a department at Paradox whose job is licensing things to Onyx Path and collecting money for old books on DriveThruRPG.

Quote from: TWO CATATA on December 26, 2018, 09:39:02 pm

the new one seemed too Twilight/New Blood soap opera'y from what I read of it

But then, the old one is all Anne Rice and bodice rippers. You're not going to get a vampire RPG inspired by high literature, no matter what you do it's gonna be inspired by vampire fiction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 05:28:51 am

Quote from: TWO CATATA on December 26, 2018, 09:39:02 pm

I looked at the chechnya thing and I don't understand the fuss, I feel like they might have been overwhelmed by ignorant American university students that don't actually know just how serious the stuff out in the world that happens outside outside the sanitised version they get from CNN or whatever, religious hitsquads (some of them following Islam, some Christianity, all over the world this kind of thing happens, it just so happens that Islam is the only one that has religious officials, the Mutaween, SERIOUSLY ACTIVELY ENDORSING AND HAPPENING RIGHT NOW witch hunting and murder with the aid of Iran government etc at this moment in history) hunting down lesbian gay bisexual trans ETC people to kill is very much a thing, and instead of sticking heads in the sand and sweeping uncomfortable truths under the rug because we're too scared to look at them, what was made world of darkness so amazing, is that it never used to shy away from turning a grisly light on the monstrous aspects of real humanity, that was the whole depth to it, the Greek tragedy of it all that ultimately the vampires in their inhumanity are all acting in ways that reflect on humanity itself. That's the real message behind it all I think and what's GOOD about it, in that it lets people look at things they might otherwise be uncomfortable to think about, experience, talk about - safely.

I appreciate that you have an opinion on these topics, but I have stated multiple times that all of these outside issues do not belong in the PNP thread, we have functional politics threads for politics, this one is for games.  I also appreciate that you tried, poorly, to tie your statement to the subject, but this is not where that conversation will happen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: TWO CATATA on December 27, 2018, 06:35:54 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 05:28:51 am

I appreciate that you have an opinion on these topics, but I have stated multiple times that all of these outside issues do not belong in the PNP thread, we have functional politics threads for politics, this one is for games.  I also appreciate that you tried, poorly, to tie your statement to the subject, but this is not where that conversation will happen.

1. Hi I'm new, I didn't know someone was shutting down discussion about that, I replied after someone else brought it up, that's a shame because these kind of things are really important to talk about, awwh. Sometimes avoiding talking about things leads to a situation where it comes to the point no one can, humanity loses...

2.  I appreciate you tried, poorly, to be insulting and patronising in your reply here, and imply, laughably, that I was not genuine in talking about the subject which is impossible to separate from talking about real world censorship, from a high horse that you have shown little but unwarranted self-importance (with an anime avatar, really) for a reason to talk down to people though. (No, I don't, that was really obnoxious and a great example of why the position of gatekeeper over discussions often often leads to megalomania.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 27, 2018, 07:45:37 am

I don't think the Chechenya thing has come up before, since I have no idea what it's about. I think Omega was just speaking in general about non-rpg things.

I'm super curious about what Chechenya thing was now, though, if anyone wants to pm me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 27, 2018, 09:07:26 am

You'll get a much better response in the thread dedicated to European politics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=155469.0).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 27, 2018, 10:19:58 am

What? No, I'm well aware of the political situation in Chechenya. I assumed there was something involving White Wolf/World of Darkness that I didn't know, however. That's why I asked for a pm instead of taking up more space in this or another thread (and making another one for just this thing seemed unnecessary).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 27, 2018, 11:09:39 am

Quote from: scriver on December 27, 2018, 10:19:58 am

What? No, I'm well aware of the political situation in Chechenya. I assumed there was something involving White Wolf/World of Darkness that I didn't know, however. That's why I asked for a pm instead of taking up more space in this or another thread (and making another one for just this thing seemed unnecessary).

Googling "White Wolf Chechnya have me a pretty good article on it. The short version: They used the whole LGBT persecution thing as game lore by sticking vampires into it and people got mad. Also they used the word "controversial" even though it's pretty well verified, which implies that they show at least a partial support for Putin's denial in the face of the evidence. Personally, I think amateurish fucking around with modern politics is pretty on-brand, but then it's still not necessarily a good look.

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 05:28:51 am

I appreciate that you have an opinion on these topics, but I have stated multiple times that all of these outside issues do not belong in the PNP thread, we have functional politics threads for politics, this one is for games.  I also appreciate that you tried, poorly, to tie your statement to the subject, but this is not where that conversation will happen.

I don't agree that game lore, or even opinions of game lore, are "outside issues" with regards to role playing games. I also don't agree that game lore or White Wolf's choices in that arena would be on-topic in the political thread, and I don't think there's any real justification for that claim. Talking about the reality of the issue they based their event on might belong there, but nobody was doing that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 11:52:25 am

Quote from: TWO CATATA on December 27, 2018, 06:35:54 am

1. Hi I'm new, I didn't know someone was shutting down discussion about that, I replied after someone else brought it up, that's a shame because these kind of things are really important to talk about, awwh. Sometimes avoiding talking about things leads to a situation where it comes to the point no one can, humanity loses...

2.  I appreciate you tried, poorly, to be insulting and patronising in your reply here, and imply, laughably, that I was not genuine in talking about the subject which is impossible to separate from talking about real world censorship, from a high horse that you have shown little but unwarranted self-importance (with an anime avatar, really) for a reason to talk down to people though. (No, I don't, that was really obnoxious and a great example of why the position of gatekeeper over discussions often often leads to megalomania.)

If I believe that you are breaking the rules stated in the OP, then I will issue a warning, as stated in the OP.  If you give me attitude for that warning, I will not hesitate to report you, as the forum guidelines, specifically 1, 2 and 4, clearly support my position.  I will not issue another warning to you.  I will apologize for the specific phrasing of my warning, my use of the word "poorly" was out of line, and the result of twenty hours without sleep. The warning stands nonetheless.

Cruxador: I am not current on WoD's game lore, and had heard nothing about any of this until this morning, it still reeks of politics dragged into a discussion that has no need for them.  I will defer to you on the issues surrounding it as you have apparently been able to determine what the actual connection is.

Having looked further into this I am going to maintain my position regarding my previous warning.  The fact that White Wolf used this bit of modern political nastiness as a plot point does not mitigate that the way it was phrased by TWO CATATA is clearly inflammatory and outside this thread's scope.  Phrasing matters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 27, 2018, 12:09:37 pm

I vaguely referenced it in my post, complaining about their marketing department.  My bad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 12:11:37 pm

Referencing it wasn't the problem, and you were completely okay in doing so, the rhetoric used in TWO CATATA's post is what I am considering inflammatory and unacceptable for this thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 12:16:48 pm

So as I've been playing a Monk in our B-Side campaign, I've come to a certain realization: I am goddamn invincible and only getting more so with every new level. Is Monk actually the most defensive class in 5e? I wasn't expecting it but I haven't had anybody land an attack roll on me in three sessions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 12:20:44 pm

Monks have been pretty badass for a while, I saw some vanilla 3rd ed builds that were completely broken into OP nightmares, I'm not current tho' because I haven't tried 5th and have no plans to start.

They've kind of always been superb evasion tanks, all the way back to AD&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 27, 2018, 12:49:50 pm

Monks being a short rest class can highly skew their balance one way or another depending on how your game is run. If you can use patient defense every single turn as well as fueling your various other Ki abilities, they aren't too bad on the defense. But outside of that I think they are pretty mediocre at tanking. Worse AC then other tanking classes, needs 3 stats instead of 2, low hp, some capability to get resistances is good for tanking but not that impressive.

I'm sure you could come up with some really tanky shit using multiclassing and spells and splatbooks, but outside of that for me I'd say that Druids are easily the tankiest at low-mid levels, and then after that probably barbarians, although of course with barbarians you might run into the opposite issue that the monk does, if you have many little fights scattered throughout the day and run out of rage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on December 27, 2018, 12:55:34 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 12:20:44 pm

Monks have been pretty badass for a while, I saw some vanilla 3rd ed builds that were completely broken into OP nightmares, I'm not current tho' because I haven't tried 5th and have no plans to start.

They've kind of always been superb evasion tanks, all the way back to AD&D.

Oddly, that runs squarely counter to what I'd always heard about Monks. I.e., that they were squishy, underpowered, lacked good abilities, and (for those who care about such things) were a bit of a token dash of Eastern mysticism in a generic Western setting.

Personally I couldn't care less about that last bit, but the other points still stand. I've tried to play Monks at least three times, but none of them were in games that lasted long enough to form an impression one way or the other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 27, 2018, 01:01:03 pm

I'm not sure about vanilla. Like, yeah, certainly, you could get monks with super high AC and saves and such (although often with so much multiclassing that it's hardly recognizable as a phb monk) and sometimes they could even do good damage, the important context though is in before 4e with that amount of optimization and work literally anything becomes broken. Just normal monks were probably one of the weakest classes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 01:02:07 pm

I find that the D&D community is divided on the class.

Against most physical attacking opponents the monk is really good at not getting hit and dealing a bunch of damage in return, against mages?  Not so much, anything with decent aoe or that hits automatically is going to be the bane of your existence.  So the type of campaign you're playing is going to color how you view the class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 01:09:25 pm

My monk definitely does not have subpar AC. I'm at 19 at level 4, and the potential for up to 23 without any magic. My damage output isn't great, but I can just stand there in a crowd of attackers burning their rounds while the rest of the party works.

And slow fall is so powerful that every level is going to escalate until I become effectively immune at around level 12, which is when terminal velocity can't overcome the damage reduction enough to kill me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 27, 2018, 01:13:54 pm

The monk is the Magikarp of D&D 5e. At low levels, it is mincemeat. At high levels, it runs circles around everything. That's why people disagree on whether it's a "good" class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 27, 2018, 01:27:11 pm

Everything could end up horribly broken in 3.5e (can't speak on 3e, never played it), though monks were one of the weakest classes all told. Perhaps the weakest of the PHB classes.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 12:16:48 pm

So as I've been playing a Monk in our B-Side campaign, I've come to a certain realization: I am goddamn invincible and only getting more so with every new level. Is Monk actually the most defensive class in 5e? I wasn't expecting it but I haven't had anybody land an attack roll on me in three sessions.

Monks are quite survivable in 5e, indeed. Dodge as a bonus action, Evasion and proficiency in all saving throws in the base monk path. If you're Open Hand, a touch of healing as well.

In the meatspace campaign I'm in, early on the monk got his shit kicked in throughly and constantly, but once we levelled up and Evasion started coming into play he was pretty untouchable by enemy AoE.

...Still not as tough as the Moon Druid, though, with his extra two beastshape HP bars.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on December 27, 2018, 01:40:12 pm

I remember the funniest broken/broken build was the truenamer.

Completely useless in every build except for one very specific build, and then it's completely game-breaking OP.

I wish I remember more on it than that. But it was hilarious.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 27, 2018, 01:47:13 pm

As I recall Truenamer needed to pass a skill check to use it's powers on targets, which got harder each time they tried on the same enemy. So they were a 'caster' class who could only cast on one foe so much, made worse by the skill DC being really high to start with so even with max skillranks they often couldn't do much, and this scaling got worse as levels went up.

Thing is was one of powers they got access to was at will Gate I think, which let you open a portal to another plane to call through allies, and you could make custom items that boosted skill checks which were really cheap. So a Truenamer with an item of +30 to Truenaming checks could spam their powers and gate in angels and demons at will once they reached the right level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 27, 2018, 02:00:23 pm

Yeah, Monks got improved significantly from 3.5 to 5th. I find it odd that someone claimed they're poor against Mages, because with evasion, prof in Dex saves/high Wisdom, and their multiple attacks and mobility, they're really good at getting in close in without taking damage and then disrupting concentration.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 27, 2018, 02:04:18 pm

The truenamer thing sounds like the classic infinite wishes build/idea. Gate in infinite genies and wish all your problems away without doing any real work yourself. Just like real life, only it actually works in the game.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 01:09:25 pm

My monk definitely does not have subpar AC. I'm at 19 at level 4, and the potential for up to 23 without any magic. My damage output isn't great, but I can just stand there in a crowd of attackers burning their rounds while the rest of the party works.

Sounds like a duel welding Kensei? They certainly have better ac then most monks.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 27, 2018, 02:00:23 pm

Yeah, Monks got improved significantly from 3.5 to 5th. I find it odd that someone claimed they're poor against Mages, because with evasion, prof in Dex saves/high Wisdom, and their multiple attacks and mobility, they're really good at getting in close in without taking damage and then disrupting concentration.

I believe the mention of them being weak to mages was in 3.5, where if you have 70 ac a t-rex probably can't chomp you, but fail an instant death save and rip.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 27, 2018, 02:30:35 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 27, 2018, 01:47:13 pm

As I recall Truenamer needed to pass a skill check to use it's powers on targets, which got harder each time they tried on the same enemy. So they were a 'caster' class who could only cast on one foe so much, made worse by the skill DC being really high to start with so even with max skillranks they often couldn't do much, and this scaling got worse as levels went up.

It was even worse than just that.  The skill DC scaled by challenge rating (of all things) times two, while skills generally only went up +1 per level.  So you actually got worse at truenaming as you leveled up, assuming on average you encounter enemies at your CR level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 27, 2018, 04:39:52 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 01:09:25 pm

My monk definitely does not have subpar AC. I'm at 19 at level 4, and the potential for up to 23 without any magic. My damage output isn't great, but I can just stand there in a crowd of attackers burning their rounds while the rest of the party works.

Oh? What's your stats and build like?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 06:24:49 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on December 27, 2018, 02:04:18 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 01:09:25 pm

My monk definitely does not have subpar AC. I'm at 19 at level 4, and the potential for up to 23 without any magic. My damage output isn't great, but I can just stand there in a crowd of attackers burning their rounds while the rest of the party works.

Sounds like a duel welding Kensei? They certainly have better ac then most monks.

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on December 27, 2018, 04:39:52 pm

Oh? What's your stats and build like?

Lizardfolk Acolyte
Way of the Open Hand
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 10
Unarmed
Base AC is 13 from natural armor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 27, 2018, 06:31:52 pm

RAW Natural Armor and monk's defense bonus don't stack, but as long as your DM's okay with that its fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 06:37:32 pm

Yeah, that one just doesn't make sense. Natural shouldn't stack with armor of course, but I'm not wearing armor to begin with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 27, 2018, 06:46:25 pm

Yeah, it's more of a game design decision than a realistic one. Hence why I said if your DM is okay with it you're fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 27, 2018, 06:48:16 pm

Yeah the way AC works in 5e makes the various sources of higher AC unstackable by making them different calculations, not bonuses. Part of the bounded accuracy concept they used to avoid massive numbers bloat and keep basic enemies able to hit the big boys.

Lizardfolk Natural Armour calculates AC as 13 + Dex.

Monks Unarmoured Defense calculates it as 10 + Dex + Wis.

So your AC should be 16 from the Monk's UD feature.


The alternative is players being able to stack multiple sources of UD and NA, like say a Loxodon Barbarian which would wind up with 12 + Con + Con + Dex, which could work out with an AC close to or exceeding the goddess Tiamat at level 1.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 06:50:40 pm

Actually 3 and 3.5 at least had a clear statement that like bonuses did not stack, so you could have only one of those two Con in the equation.  I can clearly see why they would change that further, as it still leads to obscene total values.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 27, 2018, 06:53:05 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 06:37:32 pm

Yeah, that one just doesn't make sense. Natural shouldn't stack with armor of course, but I'm not wearing armor to begin with.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 27, 2018, 06:46:25 pm

Yeah, it's more of a game design decision than a realistic one. Hence why I said if your DM is okay with it you're fine.

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 27, 2018, 06:48:16 pm

Yeah the way AC works in 5e makes the various sources of higher AC unstackable by making them different calculations, not bonuses.

Yeah, I need a different way to start my posts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 27, 2018, 06:58:38 pm

I find myself doing that a lot too, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 06:58:44 pm

Yeah, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 06:59:44 pm

There is a new addendum to the OP, it isn't a new rule or anything, I just want to let people who care know that I really am open to discussion of my curation methods in PM.  If you have concerns, questions or just feel the need to tell me that you don't agree with me I will do everything I can to listen and adapt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 27, 2018, 07:04:10 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 06:50:40 pm

Actually 3 and 3.5 at least had a clear statement that like bonuses did not stack, so you could have only one of those two Con in the equation.  I can clearly see why they would change that further, as it still leads to obscene total values.

As I recall you could stack your stats to AC, for example some options let you add Charisma as a Deflection Bonus to your AC, another as an Untyped Bonus, another as an Enhancement Bonus, and so on. You just couldn't add it as a Deflection Bonus twice because you can only have one Deflection Bonus, and one NA bonus and so on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on December 27, 2018, 07:05:52 pm

Yes, that was my meaning, I guess my explanation was a bit sloppy tho'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 27, 2018, 07:09:57 pm

I think there was a Paladin-esque build that had Cha to AC four times from multiple sources? Something insane like that anyway.

Wasn't a very good build mind you, AC was fairly unimportant by the level all the sources came online.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 07:11:59 pm

I believe I saw a fully book compliant build that got 25 AC at level 1, forget exactly what the combination was. Apparently that one is the limit for starting AC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 27, 2018, 09:44:04 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 06:37:32 pm

Yeah, that one just doesn't make sense. Natural shouldn't stack with armor of course, but I'm not wearing armor to begin with.

I dunno, I don't think it makes any more or less sense then natural armor not stacking with normal armor. After all, what armor actually is and trying to represent is pretty fluid, if it's the ability to directly stop a blow, stacking makes sense, if it's to dodge or turn away a blow, less so, but since everything goes into this one stat I think that all we can say is that it's all of the various ways you can imagine armor rolled into one gamey stat. And, with that in mind, I think it makes a lot of sense that they aren't allowed to stack. At the least because of the need to avoid AC 27 Tortles running around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 28, 2018, 06:07:37 am

Yeah, there was actually a tweet specifically about natural armor vs. class armor in 5e. Official ruling from Crawford is "you can't stack them, you pick either one and go with that".

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 27, 2018, 07:11:59 pm

I believe I saw a fully book compliant build that got 25 AC at level 1, forget exactly what the combination was. Apparently that one is the limit for starting AC.

Damn dude. That's without a Shield spell, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on December 28, 2018, 11:34:18 am

This discussion of AC makes me wonder how things might have been different if D&D 5e scrapped the idea of armor making you harder to hit and made it about being harder to hurt you.  That could have also helped solve the bounded accuracy problem and remove some strangeness related to stacking AC and what AC means.

I know there are optional rules for converting AC to DR, but I'd really like to see that be more official.  Kind of like the wound point + vitality point system they used for the Star Wars D20 game, which helped explain how people got better at not dying by leveling up and also made critical hits really dangerous.  Then again, it would be a pretty fundamental change to D&D's mechanics and I imagine people would balk at the idea of armor only being helpful against wound points, which in turn makes tanks a very unappealing archetype suddenly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 28, 2018, 11:58:57 am

I think probably the biggest change would be you'd have to find a way to balance many small attacks vs few big attacks, which would of course be disproportional be effected by the change.

It's probably doable to balance, but it's a bit awkward and imo the reason why most of these conversions aren't (in my mind) as good as the simpler current system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 28, 2018, 12:14:28 pm

You could get a spike of 26AC on a level 1 Forge Cleric if you chose right.

Chainmail: base of 16
Blessing of the forge on it: +1
Shield: +2
Shield of Faith: +2 (while concentrating)
That only gives a base of mere 21.

If you're a variant human, however, take Magic Initiate for Shield to spike it into 26AC.

That'd be out of the box.

If you had a Dex of 16, took the scale mail instead and chose Medium Armour Master for your feat you'd get that 22AC for your combat, but no spike.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 28, 2018, 01:17:39 pm

This only emboldens my belief that NA and UD should stack. Look at that and tell me stacking is what's OP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 28, 2018, 02:08:13 pm

It's a little bit harder to do this sorta thing in actual use, since shield requires a somatic component which is hard to keep ready when you hold a shield unless you have warcaster. And even then it's a single use ability. Strong? Yeah. Op? Depends on your game, maybe. You can only block one attack after all (luck feats probably more op) I'm basically doing this in my current game (not quite, but same idea, heavy armor with shield and shield, same ac reached) and I get fucked up all the time still.

NA stacking with UD though is a +3 (or +7) all the time to monks or barbarians though, which I think is probably stronger over all, and also disproportionate as a racial class feature, vs this being class features and feats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 28, 2018, 02:24:26 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 28, 2018, 01:17:39 pm

This only emboldens my belief that NA and UD should stack. Look at that and tell me stacking is what's OP.

Because that 21/22 AC is with magic - there's a cost to it, and they won't gain Evasion or proficiency in all saves either.

Letting AC and UD stack would pretty much make lizardmen or 1-level dragonsorc dips the best monks, because an extra 3 AC for free all the time is pretty huge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on December 28, 2018, 06:12:03 pm

Yeah, I mean, that Cleric build is probably actually going to have only 19 AC most of the time, since shield of faith only last 10 minutes, and a level 1 cleric only has 2 spell slots. So, unless you only face 2 combats per day, or they're all spaced very close together, there's going to be times you'll have to go without them. Also, if you're spending your slots on shield of faith, that means you're able to use them for other uses, like healing or buffing your party.

Also, the shield spell, while providing a nice burst AC increase, only lasts until the start of your next turn, and, if you get it from Magic Initiate, you can only use it once per long rest. (Sage Advice says you can alternatively cast it with your spell slots if you picked your spell from a class list of a class you have. So, if you took a level in wizard or sorcerer, it would be cool.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 29, 2018, 12:34:31 am

I went ahead and made an expansion to Dawn of Worlds (http://www.clanwebsite.org/games/rpg/Dawn_of_Worlds_game_1_0Final.pdf)* which I thought you guys might be interesting. The original is a narrative experience where you cooperatively create a fantasy world. It only took a few tweaks to turn into a tabletop strategy game about divinity, while retaining the narrative aspect, and also adding more of an RPG aspect.

Right now it's an early version and although the game has been tested, the most recently added elements have not. Nonetheless I thought I'd share it in case people are interested in such things. So here (https://mega.nz/#!YoshkCjT!ioVmCjaf2y51Vrvw99oG3hzTuOuHCAyBLzW1nJ-kOlU). Feedback is welcome.

_{*This is the official download on their site, for anyone who worries about piracy. It's there for your use.}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Liber celi on December 30, 2018, 05:59:42 am

All Hit Point-based systems are a conscious departure from realism in favor of gameability. Sorry for the platitude but there are no hit points in real life.
Here is one defense of the basic idiosyncracies of (old school, BECMI) D&D combat on the basis of realism. (http://middenmurk.blogspot.com/2010/03/armed-combat.html) Personally I think a simulation of reality is a Sisyphean task and not really why I play RPGs with dwarves and talking rats.
 
I played systems with damage reduction (Das Schwarze Auge 4th ed etc) and systems with AC and I don't think it influenced my characters' tactical behaviour much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on December 30, 2018, 07:49:47 am

There's a Pathfinder alternate ruleset that introduce wound thresholds as an additional system to hit points, where you suffer penalties to future rolls based on how wounded (3/4, 1/2, 1/4) you are compared to your maximum hit points. Never really played those, since it's an extra layer of bookkeeping on top of an already complex combat system. I can understand the appeal to represent some kind of consequence for suffering near mortal injury, but honestly I'm happy to just accept that it's a game and lump it in the same box of weird that lets people shoot fire by wiggling their fingers properly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 30, 2018, 01:34:55 pm

Quote from: Liber celi on December 30, 2018, 05:59:42 am

Personally I think a simulation of reality is a Sisyphean task and not really why I play RPGs with dwarves and talking rats.

Quote from: Jimmy on December 30, 2018, 07:49:47 am

I can understand the appeal to represent some kind of consequence for suffering near mortal injury, but honestly I'm happy to just accept that it's a game and lump it in the same box of weird that lets people shoot fire by wiggling their fingers properly.

My question when this sort of reasoning comes up is this: how far can we let that go before we start breaking with players' understanding of how things work and crippling both immersion and their basic ability to act with intent in the game? Sure we put impossible things in RPGs, but there's a difference between adding a new thing and changing how something works with respect to reality in that the latter is counterintuitive in addition to being another thing to remember. "Wizards can shoot fire from their hands" doesn't conflict with my knowledge of the world the way "housecats are a lethal threat to peasants" does, since I (obviously) don't have any experience with wizards but I have had an angry cat on my hands before. Using the former to justify the latter kind of ignores the added stumbling block we've just added to players' ability to do things with the rules and an additional thing they must remember about the game, and enough problems of that sort can turn people away from the ruleset just as easily as slavish and overcomplicated devotion to realism.

And, of course, you can carry it to absurd lengths and excuse the moon being invisible and the peasant railgun and just about anything with "well what about wizards", and that feels like an invitation to design bad, silly rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on December 30, 2018, 02:01:15 pm

As a small aside on how HP represent a departure from reality, I can accept that, but since I'm having to accept an abstraction I prefer damage resistant armor to dodge armor.  It can change tactics sometimes though, since many systems with DR instead of AC will make low damage attacks useless instead of letting them have a small chance of doing minor damage.  There are ways around that, but it adds complexity.

Another small aside with level based scaling HP systems is that it makes healing magic weird.  Someone who is higher level is harder to heal now, for some reason.  The implication is that having more HP is at least partially a heroic ability to roll with hits or avoid the worst of them, but that has strange interactions with healing magic too.

GURPS is my go-to system, which uses DR instead of AC, and it also doesn't have scaling HP.  I like the way it appeals to realism on those fronts, but it's also definitely an example of a complicated game system as a result.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 30, 2018, 02:15:32 pm

No love for Dark Heresy/WFRP's wounds and armor system?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on December 30, 2018, 03:06:02 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 30, 2018, 02:15:32 pm

No love for Dark Heresy/WFRP's wounds and armor system?

Roll to die or die really horribly!

(It's a great system actually. I wish I could play more of either)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on December 30, 2018, 03:16:35 pm

Same here. Maybe when my current game ends I'll try to run one of the 40k RPGs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on December 30, 2018, 05:28:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 30, 2018, 02:15:32 pm

No love for Dark Heresy/WFRP's wounds and armor system?

The critical hit system does stand out in my mind, but how did the normal damage and armor work?  If I remember, it had a damage threshold based on your toughness, right?

I don't remember how it scaled in those games explicitly, but I do know a few systems where that tends to end up making your body count for as much or more for damage reduction than armor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 30, 2018, 06:16:02 pm

Quote from: Telgin on December 30, 2018, 05:28:33 pm

The critical hit system does stand out in my mind, but how did the normal damage and armor work?  If I remember, it had a damage threshold based on your toughness, right?

It's mostly an HP system, with armor and toughness bonus as a damage threshold; normal damage doesn't have any effect until it exceeds a character's Wounds, at which point it becomes critical damage and has the effects listed on the crit tables.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 30, 2018, 06:20:59 pm

Quote from: Telgin on December 30, 2018, 05:28:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 30, 2018, 02:15:32 pm

No love for Dark Heresy/WFRP's wounds and armor system?

The critical hit system does stand out in my mind, but how did the normal damage and armor work?  If I remember, it had a damage threshold based on your toughness, right?

I don't remember how it scaled in those games explicitly, but I do know a few systems where that tends to end up making your body count for as much or more for damage reduction than armor.

You have toughness bonus and armour. Any damage you take is reduced by both, but weapons with the right stats reduce armour value, but almost nothing gets to ignore toughness bonus. Armour is easier to boost though.

With enough reduction you just ignore damage that can't get over it, so a tanky character can be literally immune to basic mook attacks. Goblins with knives bounce off a knight in plate armour and a space marine can walk through endless hails of basic civilian grade weapons fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 30, 2018, 06:42:04 pm

I just went through the critical damage tables for Dark Heresy, and it looks like it takes between 7 and 8 points of Critical Damage, depending on type, to actually kill a character. With the notable exception of explosion damage, almost nothing even has a permanent effect below 5 points. So there's also innate HP in the form of temporary crit results.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 30, 2018, 08:01:13 pm

The damage rules include a line about most things dying at 0 wounds rather than needing a crit to kill them. Similarly they take 5 corruption to die from rampant mutations and 5 insanity to become helplessly catatonic rather than 100 the way an important NPC or a Player Character does.

Basically critical damage is for bosses, major NPC allies, very high end minions and PCs. A basic soldier just drops at 0 wounds with no flashy stuff like their head melting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on December 30, 2018, 08:07:11 pm

Not that you can't melt their heads or whatever. It's just unnecessary.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on December 30, 2018, 08:12:24 pm

Quote from: Sirus on December 30, 2018, 08:07:11 pm

Not that you can't melt their heads or whatever. It's just unnecessary.

It's Warhammer so you absolutely should melt heads whenever possible. Preferably not your own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 31, 2018, 12:38:39 pm

I think it helps if you don't consider HP to be a measurement of directly how healthy a person is but how much they're still able to fight. HP systems would benefit a lot if it wasn't taken so for granted that 0 HP automatically means death or unconciousness. For example, if you remember the scene where Ned Stark fights Jaime Lannister in GoT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15-op9n7FO8), you could say that both Stark and Jory Cassel are equally at 0 HP at the end of it. But one of them is decidedly more dead that the other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 31, 2018, 01:03:30 pm

Though if combat is the focus of the system, you could afford to make damage a more complex system than a single number that goes down. :P

Like, you could have separate numbers for "able to fight-ness" and "not being dead-ness". If you lose all of the former without losing any of the latter, you're beaten down and unwilling to keep fighting, but not hurt. If you lose all the latter without losing any of the former, someone probably just begun the encounter by blowing your head off~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 31, 2018, 01:11:51 pm

That's the two Stark guards getting javelined immediately at the start of the fight I guess ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 31, 2018, 01:18:39 pm

Plenty of systems do that, D&D even does it to an extent with nonlethal damage. Tbh in most cases I think it ends up being just more book keeping without making combat more satisfying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 31, 2018, 02:20:35 pm

Exalted 3e works like that. Initiative is your ability to control the fight and is gained and lost through attacks, while damage levels are a separate thing, and the attacks that actually do health damage reset initiative.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 02, 2019, 08:21:37 am

Nonlethal damage in Pathfinder and I think DnD works like "able to fight-ness", on top of HP already being an amalgamate of how injured you are and how much morale you have and etc.

Nonlethal damage is basically extra exhaustion slapped on top, but it doesn't do anything until you have equal amounts of nonlethal damage and HP, or when the former exceeds the latter, at which point you fall unconscious (but aren't making stabilization rolls and all that junk). I think it's pretty cool but a tad cumbersome when you have to track it alongside regular damage in a fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 02, 2019, 09:40:51 am

It's a great way of letting a player decide not to kill enemies, be it for morality reasons or less savory intentions. It allows options such as 'capture this target alive' without getting into grappling rules, which were written by sadistic authors intent on punishing anyone who tries to do something other than hit point damage in combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 09:46:45 am

They simplified it rather dramatically in 5e.  Instead of a separate counter for nonlethal damage, and usually a -4 attack modifier when striking nonlethally, the player performing the final blow simply decides whether the target dies or falls unconscious.  It's another case where I liked the detail of 3.5e, but the 5e system works almost identically in practice and is easier for new players.  It'd also be trivial to houserule temporary hitpoints back in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 02, 2019, 09:51:32 am

I've only liked Shadowrun's way of handling this - although it's as cumbersome as the rest of the game.

Players have two health tracks - stun and physical. If either drops to 0, you're down. Stunned means you're unconscious, and fine until someone walks up and blows your brains out. Physical to zero means you're down and are rolling to stay alive. But every time you lose 3 in either track you take a -1 modifier to all skills. (there's an average of 10 in each of these tracks for most players) This gives some benefit to hitting both tracks - in 3.5 DnD, it felt pointless to do anything but focus on either track.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 02, 2019, 10:05:44 am

Quote from: delphonso on January 02, 2019, 09:51:32 am

This gives some benefit to hitting both tracks - in 3.5 DnD, it felt pointless to do anything but focus on either track.

Uh. That's sorta the opposite of true. In 3.5 D&D nonlethal damage knocks you out when it goes above your current hp, so nonlethal and lethal damage stack perfectly, if someone has 60 max hp any combination of lethal and non lethal that reaches 60 knocks them out. There's no issue with mixing it, unlike in shadowrun where it really sucks when players have different types of damage output.

Like they aren't even really separate tracks, I'm a bit surprised that people here are talking about them as if they are.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 02, 2019, 10:12:28 am

That's really ambiguous though.

Say I (impotently) punch somebody in the face in the attempt to knock them out (nonlethal damage) and do 1hp of nonlethal.
Then, Dark Paladin SkullCrusher McSledgehammer comes in, and crushes their skull with his mighty hammer of darkness, and does 65hp of damage. (REAL damage)

They have 60hp of total health.  Are they dead, or unconscious?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 02, 2019, 10:25:05 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 02, 2019, 10:05:44 am

In 3.5 D&D nonlethal damage knocks you out when it goes above your current hp,

Oh boy, did I misunderstand that rule.

I think I owe some players and possibly a GM an apology.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 10:31:40 am

Quote from: wierd on January 02, 2019, 10:12:28 am

That's really ambiguous though.

Say I (impotently) punch somebody in the face in the attempt to knock them out (nonlethal damage) and do 1hp of nonlethal.
Then, Dark Paladin SkullCrusher McSledgehammer comes in, and crushes their skull with his mighty hammer of darkness, and does 65hp of damage. (REAL damage)

They have 60hp of total health.  Are they dead, or unconscious?

They're dying, because they have -5hp and 1 nonlethal.
If you hit them for 55hp of damage and 10 nonlethal damage, they'd have 5 hp and 10 nonlethal damage, and be unconscious.

When your nonlethal is exactly your remaining hit points, it's a little tricky.  You're "staggered", meaning you only get a move action or standard action instead of both.
Being at 0HP specifically is mostly the same, but you're "disabled", so a standard action makes you start dying unless it healed you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 02, 2019, 10:33:48 am

Quote from: wierd on January 02, 2019, 10:12:28 am

That's really ambiguous though.

Say I (impotently) punch somebody in the face in the attempt to knock them out (nonlethal damage) and do 1hp of nonlethal.
Then, Dark Paladin SkullCrusher McSledgehammer comes in, and crushes their skull with his mighty hammer of darkness, and does 65hp of damage. (REAL damage)

They have 60hp of total health.  Are they dead, or unconscious?

It's not ambiguous at all. In this case they are unconscious and dying.

Damage reduces current hp, when current hp is 0 you are disabled, when it's -1 to -9 you are dying, and when you are at -10 you are dead.

Nonlethal damage is compared to your current hp, when nonlethal damage is equal to your current hp you are staggered, when it's more then your current hp you are unconscious.

None of these rules are contradictory or mutually exclusive. In your example after the first punch they have 1 nonlethal damage and 60 current hp, so they remain in the default state. After the hit with the hammer their current hp is set to -5 so they are dying and their nonlethal damage (1) is higher then -5 so they are unconscious, although part of dying is falling unconscious so it's irrelevant.

This is all the rules which are important for any edge cases or perhaps understanding the system, but in play it's very simple. Nonlethal damage knocks people out, lethal damage kills them. They both go into the same hp track.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 02, 2019, 10:43:22 am

What's really amusing is that my current group has a Neutral Good Warpriest of the deity of healing and mercy who's specialized into dealing nonlethal damage in combat, and a Neutral Evil Rogue of the deity of murder that goes around performing coup-de-grace attacks on all the people the Warpriest knocked out.

It's so great to see them bicker over the corpses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 02, 2019, 10:50:57 am

"but I did 59 nonlethal! You just came in and did 1hp lethal, and you claim it killed them!? That's like chloroforming somebody, then stabbing them with a push pin, an saying that the pushpin was enough to kill them!"

(I have no problem seeing this argument actually, and yes, it is hilarious.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 10:57:36 am

Okay, but just to ruin the joke, that 1 lethal damage wouldn't kill :P  Just push them into stable unconsciousness.
To kill someone, their HP needs to be depleted by lethal damage.  Nonlethal damage doesn't change HP, it sits alongside.

Though if this 5e then yeah, that conversation could basically happen!  The warpriest would deal 59 damage (no such thing as nonlethal) then the rogue deals 1 damage and decides that the target dies.  Heh.

I did get in a pretty serious argument in my first 3.5 campaign, trying to take enemies alive...  Bleh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on January 02, 2019, 10:59:09 am

The major point to know about nonlethal damage is that, as far as I can tell, you retain HP when taking nonlethal damage, even to the point of unconsciousness; if you knocked out that guy with 60 HP using nonlethal damage, then healed 1 point of that damage, he still has all 60 HP left. Nonlethal damage is converted to lethal damage when your target's nonlethal damage is equal to their HP total, though. Lovetapping Joe 60 HP at this point would make him Joe 55/60 HP, and so on.

Your example does have a bit of sense to it, but only after Joe stabilizes himself at -5. If you were to give him a point of nonlethal damage at that point, he would instantly pass out again for an hour (after which the nonlethal damage heals itself at its usual rate of 1 point per hour) before he returns to being disabled again. It is silly, but this way it's not too hard to, say, keep a prisoner around at negative HP, unable to effectively defend themselves without risking damage and possible death, while you can easily render them unconscious whenever you want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 02, 2019, 10:50:17 pm

If the target has 60 HP and you hit him for 59 nonlethal, he still has 60 HP and is uninjured, still able to fight, but is battered and exhausted. If you then deal 2 lethal damage to him, his HP falls to 58, which is lower than the amount of nonlethal damage but still more than 0, so he falls unconscious but isn't dying. Essentially the small amount of stabbing weakened him enough to succumb to his existing exhaustion.

Which makes more logical sense to me than the way that 5e handles it, but 5e is quicker to wrap your head around. 5e is just like, if you drop them to 0HP you can choose to not be killing them. It also does away with being at negative hitpoints, 0 is the lowest you can be. Rather than lose 1 HP each turn until you drop to -10 and die, or get healed by someone else, you roll to not die each turn. If you're lucky you can even stabilize all on your own.


Well that was half restating what other people said and half irrelevant to the conversation, but hey I'm not being paid to make constructive comments. :V

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 02, 2019, 10:56:27 pm

I reckon WotC got rid of that non-lethal thing because chumps like me misunderstood it - and found it erroneous, so didn't use it.

I'm fond of you choosing whether or not you kill someone with your final blow - but it doesn't reflect reality well. I'd rather there be some sort of a roll to see if you can strike with enough precision to not kill with your final hit.
(or at least, not put them in a critical position)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 02, 2019, 11:21:50 pm

Did nonlethal damage in 3.5 have to be melee or could they be ranged?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:31:01 pm

You couldn't take a -4 to use a lethal ranged weapon nonlethally, that only worked with melee weapons.  Uh, apparently.  I did nonlethal arrow damage once by "firing the arrows backwards" I think, we didn't notice it wasn't RAW.

There is at least one naturally nonlethal ranged weapon in the SRD though, bolas.
(And apparently you *can* use such ranged weapons nonlethally, with a -4)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 02, 2019, 11:44:20 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:31:01 pm

"firing the arrows backwards"

Jesus, the handwaving at your table is something. This wouldn't pass muster even in manga.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on January 02, 2019, 11:45:44 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 02, 2019, 11:21:50 pm

Did nonlethal damage in 3.5 have to be melee or could they be ranged?

If the weapon ordinarily dealt lethal damage, it had to be a melee weapon to substitute nonlethal damage in general per RAW.  Specific rules overrule that if a weapon had the option or explicitly only could deal nonlethal damage: I found the boomerang in Sandstorm and blunt arrows in Races of the Wild on a cursory run-through, though I don't think there are too many options out there.  There's also a feat for spells called "Nonlethal Substitution" (Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Arcane) that let you replace any energy type to deal nonlethal damage instead. 

EDIT: Ah, I only went through the SRD with a Google search, so I did miss the bolas mentioned by Rolan. I likely missed it because I was skimming, saw the table, and failed my Spot check.

EDIT 2: Good heavens, I also forgot the entire Whelm series of spells in the PHB2: Whelm, Whelming Blast, and Mass Whelm.  There's also Overwhelm, which flat-out deals nonlethal damage equal to the target's current HP, but it's a touch spell instead of being ranged.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on January 02, 2019, 11:51:38 pm

Yeah I was just about to add that with craft (fletcher) I was allowed to make nonlethal (blunt) and slashing-type arrows alongside piercing damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:56:21 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on January 02, 2019, 11:44:20 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:31:01 pm

"firing the arrows backwards"

Jesus, the handwaving at your table is something. This wouldn't pass muster even in manga.

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll :P
it's fantasy

Quote from: Gentlefish on January 02, 2019, 11:51:38 pm

Yeah I was just about to add that with craft (fletcher) I was allowed to make nonlethal (blunt) and slashing-type arrows alongside piercing damage.

Yeah if I had been playing an actual ranger or something, I would have custom nonlethal arrows handy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on January 02, 2019, 11:58:19 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:56:21 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on January 02, 2019, 11:51:38 pm

Yeah I was just about to add that with craft (fletcher) I was allowed to make nonlethal (blunt) and slashing-type arrows alongside piercing damage.

Yeah if I had been playing an actual ranger or something, I would have custom nonlethal arrows handy.

Preferably with a (highly-anachronistic) boxing glove on the front, because sometimes you just need to punch someone from across the room.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 03, 2019, 12:03:20 am

Rangeru PUUUUNCH (https://youtu.be/1Fu6Ot9IJKI?t=4)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on January 03, 2019, 12:16:04 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 03, 2019, 12:03:20 am

Rangeru PUUUUNCH (https://youtu.be/1Fu6Ot9IJKI?t=4)

...I'm suddenly entirely too curious if one can build a Mazinger Warforged, because reasons.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 03, 2019, 12:27:20 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:56:21 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on January 02, 2019, 11:44:20 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:31:01 pm

"firing the arrows backwards"

Jesus, the handwaving at your table is something. This wouldn't pass muster even in manga.

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll :P
it's fantasy

I mean, at least those things are theoretically possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2019, 12:50:22 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:56:21 pm

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll :P
it's fantasy

Could just as reasonably be the archer holding two arrows in the hand and firing them rapidly, one after the other.  I'm led to believe that can be done in 6 seconds, and is realistic provided you're willing to sacrifice a little power and accuracy.

If it doesn't involve a minus to your attack roll, I guess that's where the fantasy comes into the picture. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 03, 2019, 01:17:46 am

Oh, a level 11 ranger is expected to fire 4 times a round (3 from BAB, plus one from Rapid Shot).  That sounds like what you're describing, holding several arrows and firing them in very rapid sequence.  But they all get different attack rolls.  A Manyshot attack sends two (or more, it actually scales) arrows at exactly the same place, whether that's a miss or hit...

Quote from: Cruxador on January 03, 2019, 12:27:20 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:56:21 pm

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll :P
it's fantasy

I mean, at least those things are theoretically possible.

No, you're drawing (heh) an arbitrary line.  Firing two arrows such that they fly together is just as absurd as knocking the arrowhead against the bowstring.  They're both "theoretically possible", but completely unrealistic.

One of my examples is a 10ft tall ogre abusing reach mechanics and combat reflexes, I guess that wasn't clear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 03, 2019, 01:29:19 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 03, 2019, 01:17:46 am

Oh, a level 11 ranger is expected to fire 4 times a round (3 from BAB, plus one from Rapid Shot).  That sounds like what you're describing, holding several arrows and firing them in very rapid sequence.  But they all get different attack rolls.  A Manyshot attack sends two (or more, it actually scales) arrows at exactly the same place, whether that's a miss or hit...

Quote from: Cruxador on January 03, 2019, 12:27:20 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 02, 2019, 11:56:21 pm

In our first 3.5 campaign, one of our players voiced similar complaints about an archery feat which allowed pinning people to hard objects by their clothing.  This person was using playing an ogre built around attacks of opportunity, often making 6 or more attacks in each 6 second round.

I could also bring up the core feat Manyshot, which isn't *explicitly* notching two arrows at once...  But it's a single action and they share a single attack roll :P
it's fantasy

I mean, at least those things are theoretically possible.

No, you're drawing (heh) an arbitrary line.  Firing two arrows such that they fly together is just as absurd as knocking the arrowhead against the bowstring.  They're both "theoretically possible", but completely unrealistic.

One of my examples is a 10ft tall ogre abusing reach mechanics and combat reflexes, I guess that wasn't clear.

Hitting something (as an attack of opportunity or otherwise) once or more per second doesn't strain credibility that much. Shooting one target with two arrows from the same loose of the string is hardly a likely course of events, but it still has the possibility of occurring. If you tried to nock an arrow by its head, you'd just cut the drawstring. Even if you used a modern dull target shooting arrow (at which point, why not shoot it the right way around?) fletching exists for a reason. It's a line, but it's not that arbitrary, and even if it was there's a vast gulf there that could fit countless many lines.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 03, 2019, 02:19:06 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 03, 2019, 01:17:46 am

No, you're drawing (heh) an arbitrary line.  Firing two arrows such that they fly together is just as absurd as knocking the arrowhead against the bowstring.  They're both "theoretically possible", but completely unrealistic.

There is historical precedent for it, actually, although the pictures could just be of archers drawing one arrow while holding others parallel in their arrow hand for rapid fire. (Bearing in mind that war archery used arrow hand draw, this makes a certain amount of sense.) More to the point, though, you can find YouTube videos of people doing this over D&D-esque ranges and the arrows do fly together, at least well enough that you could conceivably expect to hit a Medium target with more than one of them regularly.

Penetrating is another matter entirely, particularly since bows are optimized for specific arrow weights so double stringing more than halves the momentum per arrow, but it does make sense if firing at very long range into a crowd so the arrows have time to diverge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2019, 02:55:31 am

I suppose it would make sense to fire two arrows at the same target each with half the energy if you're fighting something that's more damaged by the multiple hits than by the deeper penetration. Like a slime, maybe? An amorphous target would probably care more about getting cut by two low energy broadhead arrows than getting pierced by one high energy bodkin arrow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 03, 2019, 07:02:48 am

I think the most important point is, though, that shooting the arrow backwards just sounds so godawfully dumb.

I'd just let an archer shoot to nail the target to objects with his arrow (regardless of feats). Hell, I'd be more inclined to just let archer shoot with the arrow the right way around and say that it just hits "non-lethal" area than say he turns the arrow.

Especially if you throw out stupid "non-lethal" damage and just implement HP as one's ability to still fight rather than an exact measurement if one's health, as suggested above. Shoot your enemy to 0 HP? You didn't pierce his skull, you just put an arrow straight through his knee and ended the fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 03, 2019, 07:03:44 am

While you might be able to knock the arrow, and release it from the bow, the fletchings being on the FRONT of the arrow will cause it to tumble.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 03, 2019, 10:37:08 am

The main reason I was asking about ranged nonlethal is because in 5e you can't do knock someone out from range, and I was curious how 3.5 dealt with that.

Quote from: scriver on January 03, 2019, 07:02:48 am

Especially if you throw out stupid "non-lethal" damage and just implement HP as one's ability to still fight rather than an exact measurement if one's health, as suggested above. Shoot your enemy to 0 HP? You didn't pierce his skull, you just put an arrow straight through his knee and ended the fight.

Putting an arrow through someone's knee is still pretty bad, especially if they've been taking a lot of damage earlier in the fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 03, 2019, 11:01:31 am

It's been known to end careers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 03, 2019, 11:06:22 am

Spoiler: I used to be an adventurer... (click to show/hide)

(https://media.giphy.com/media/9H622a9zYMUFi/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 03, 2019, 02:08:39 pm

I used to be an explorer like you, but then I took a javelin to the upper thigh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2019, 04:12:51 pm

I suppose that if you wanted to disable someone without killing them, but only had access to ranged lethal weapons, you could just knock them down to negative hitpoints normally, then go and stabilize them. There's some potential to accidentally kill if you deal enough damage that they drop down from full to -10 or just instakill them due to massive damage rules or whatever, or if you can't stabilize them in time due to being too far away / fighting other enemies / have a bad medicine skill. But it has a potential to work. :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 03, 2019, 08:49:43 pm

Yeah, if someone wanted to do that in a 5e game I ran, that's probably how I'd handle it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 03, 2019, 09:38:26 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2019, 08:49:43 pm

Yeah, if someone wanted to do that in a 5e game I ran, that's probably how I'd handle it

Drow poison would work more reliably, if more expensively.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on January 03, 2019, 09:51:17 pm

It's not all that expensive, since every D&D player's waifu is drow, so they can just pay for a nice dinner and be good to go.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 03, 2019, 10:30:31 pm

I've generally tried to give my players an experience different from video games - and that's why I haven't used non-lethal damage much. If they're fighting an intelligent creature, my players know they can talk during combat - and if an enemy who isn't in a pure bloodrage is down to their last couple hit points, they're likely to bargain. I've had a lot of characters drop their weapons rather than take another arrow in the knee. Likewise, I've had characters see being captured as worse than death, and they go down swinging. In that case - we usually end up with something like that - dropping them to negatives and then stabilizing them. I'll even give them some lee-way on excessive damage (unless someone crits on the final hit, or something like that.)

The rules are valuable, as always, but can be worked around to make a more enjoyable narrative experience.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 04, 2019, 12:00:57 am

Quote from: Trekkin on January 03, 2019, 09:38:26 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on January 03, 2019, 08:49:43 pm

Yeah, if someone wanted to do that in a 5e game I ran, that's probably how I'd handle it

Drow poison would work more reliably, if more expensively.

Yeah, if they want to go for ranged disabling on a regular basis, they should try to acquire some of that stuff. But barring that, the goal is to allow players to have a chance to disable folks from range, but making it somewhat risky to do so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 04, 2019, 08:49:35 am

If you just apply the "HP as luck" to 3.5, it's fine, and all attacks are nonlethal until they are. Requires a bit of a rework though.  I personally prefer it, like Exalted 3rd has Withering attacks which drain initiative and Decisive attacks which deal proper meat damage.  All attacks are made in deadly earnest, but the dramatic differences are made crunch.

Especially since there's no degradation of performance for losing HP in DnD, it makes sense to visualise it all as near-misses and close calls which leave you less and less room to screw up, until inevitably someone gets that strike that puts you down (to or below 0).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 04, 2019, 08:57:41 am

Head on over to Shadowrun for the best in nonlethal takedowns. All you need is a load of capsule rounds, industrial quantities of DMSO, an equal amount of narcojet (or for more fun/less realism, DMSO says "any compound"; go with LSD instead), and an automatic weapon.

Or sub the capsule rounds and automatic weapon for a supersoaker.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Don't do this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 09:06:31 am

Or, in my experience in shadowrun, if you want to take someone down with a nonlethal attack, just shoot them in the head with a relatively low caliber bullet. They'll basically just shrug the lethality of it off and only take stun damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 04, 2019, 09:32:50 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 09:06:31 am

Or, in my experience in shadowrun, if you want to take someone down with a nonlethal attack, just shoot them in the head with a relatively low caliber bullet. They'll basically just shrug the lethality of it off and only take stun damage.

It's one of my favourite things about SR.  Wear enough armour and you'll become immune to insta-death, but you can still be downed by pure action penalties.  It makes your recovery easier by reducing the damage type, which seems terribly reasonable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 09:34:40 am

I think my big issue isn't the idea itself, just that the breaking point for bullet immunity isn't high tech armor but more along the lines of going to the gym for 2 hours a week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 04, 2019, 09:35:37 am

Quote from: Mephisto on January 04, 2019, 08:57:41 am

Head on over to Shadowrun for the best in nonlethal takedowns. All you need is a load of capsule rounds, industrial quantities of DMSO, an equal amount of narcojet (or for more fun/less realism, DMSO says "any compound"; go with LSD instead), and an automatic weapon.

Or sub the capsule rounds and automatic weapon for a supersoaker.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Don't do this.

Eww. That would smell horrible.  Dimethyl Sulfoxide is ...  Well, let's just say it has a very unique, and unpleasant odor.

(pedants will be pedants, so here's this: YES, 100% pure DMSO is odorless. However, you are talking industrial quantities, suggesting industrial grade, not pharma or lab grade. That means a significant, and non-zero quantity of DMS, in the DMSO, and THAT stuff stinks to high heaven.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 04, 2019, 09:43:44 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 09:34:40 am

I think my big issue isn't the idea itself, just that the breaking point for bullet immunity isn't high tech armor but more along the lines of going to the gym for 2 hours a week.

Hah, unless you're a troll, you cant' shrug off bullets that easily.  Almost any grade of corpsec will be packing sufficient dakka to break an unarmoured character.  A street level campaign might suffer from this a bit, where low-power pistols and subbies are the norm.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 09:49:19 am

Yeah, I mean, exactly, the higher tier dudes have guns that can actually hurt, but also presumably armor/beingatroll at that level enough to prevent the damage as well. But even at the lower tier of street thugs and such are running around with pistols that they can't even hurt each other with, it's bizarre.

It's a system where defense has outpaced offense, which feels really weird given it's otherwise sorta gritty and somewhat dark feel, not to mention how it's weapons are closely related to real life, so it feels super weird to be able to shoot anyone with a gun and not break the skin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 04, 2019, 10:01:08 am

It's not that you're not hurting them, it's just that it's mitigated - flesh wounds and temporary internal shock rather than blowing massive chunks of meat out of each other.  A quick peruse of statistics shows that we're actually pretty good at surviving bullet wounds, and a simple flak jacket will stop pistol caliber rounds at normal engagement ranges, with bullet wounds to non-critical locations being very unlikely to down an opponent within the timeframe of a firefight.  The standard NATO 5.56/45 caliber is largely insufficient to actually kill someone immediately, and that's for rifles!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 10:12:08 am

But you're saying to me that if I shoot a dude in the chest with a pistol a good 4-5 times that's the sorta thing he'll walk away from without any need for medical attention? Sure, we can survive gunshots in real life, and you can survive lethal damage in shadowrun. But we don't just get bruised and quickly recover from gunshots in real life.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 04, 2019, 10:17:00 am

I guess if trolls were real things we could try and find out.

Shadowrun is a setting where it's totally reasonable for someone to put a gun to your head after you've soaked lethal damage into stun and gone down. You're not soaking that hit, chummer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on January 04, 2019, 10:18:23 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 09:06:31 am

Or, in my experience in shadowrun, if you want to take someone down with a nonlethal attack, just shoot them in the head with a relatively low caliber bullet. They'll basically just shrug the lethality of it off and only take stun damage.

I've never played Shadowrun, but this reminds me of a character I made for a Docwagon game that never happened.  The character was a pilot for some kind of Osprey that had some kind of nonlethal ammo in its machinegun / autocannon mount.  The idea was pretty hilarious, although if I recall it did so much nonlethal damage it somehow (sensibly) became lethal damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 04, 2019, 10:48:24 am

Quote from: Telgin on January 04, 2019, 10:18:23 am

I've never played Shadowrun, but this reminds me of a character I made for a Docwagon game that never happened.  The character was a pilot for some kind of Osprey that had some kind of nonlethal ammo in its machinegun / autocannon mount.  The idea was pretty hilarious, although if I recall it did so much nonlethal damage it somehow (sensibly) became lethal damage.

Too much stun damage rolls over. We can only take so much bruising and shock.

Quote from: delphonso on January 04, 2019, 10:17:00 am

I guess if trolls were real things we could try and find out.

Shadowrun is a setting where it's totally reasonable for someone to put a gun to your head after you've soaked lethal damage into stun and gone down. You're not soaking that hit, chummer.

Also that. A coup de grace is lethal, no matter what.

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 04, 2019, 10:12:08 am

But you're saying to me that if I shoot a dude in the chest with a pistol a good 4-5 times that's the sorta thing he'll walk away from without any need for medical attention? Sure, we can survive gunshots in real life, and you can survive lethal damage in shadowrun. But we don't just get bruised and quickly recover from gunshots in real life.

Without some basic armour, no, he probably shouldn't walk away from that without assistance, and in my experience of SR he probably wouldn't. 4-5 bullets have almost certainly rolled into the average unarmoured combat character's lethal pool, left them unconscious and pretty buggered, honestly.  SR (blessedly) has no rules (that I recall) for bleeding out/infection/etc after the fact, which is where a lot of gun-related deaths happen, but my understanding of damage in SR is that it never really goes away - a gunshot ends in a scar and little niggles that often stay with you for life, but they don't have a mechanical effect, so we think of the character as "all better now".  Even bullets that hit armour might have cracked a rib, but it's not lethal and your character will roll into action tomorrow without much in the way of penalties, though in a bit of pain.

I did a bit of calculation and a 9L pistol shot with a single extra success will take an average (human) character down in about 3 shots with Lethal, not Stun.  A proper combat junkie could take about 36-40, including all the times they simply ignore the bullet, but assuming they never manage to dodge for some reason.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 04, 2019, 11:03:55 am

Quote from: wierd on January 04, 2019, 09:35:37 am

Eww. That would smell horrible.

And that's the beauty of it. Once the capsule rounds are filled and you've capped off your barrel of fun juice, the smell should go away. Shoot a valuable target. Even if they run some distance away, you can use your robonose to locate them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 04, 2019, 11:07:41 am

Quote from: Mephisto on January 04, 2019, 11:03:55 am

Quote from: wierd on January 04, 2019, 09:35:37 am

Eww. That would smell horrible.

And that's the beauty of it. Once the capsule rounds are filled and you've capped off your barrel of fun juice, the smell should go away. Shoot a valuable target. Even if they run some distance away, you can use your robonose to locate them.

My olfactory sensors are returning sensations of disgust and regret, I choose to acknowlege them.

Wait, wrong universe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 04, 2019, 02:20:50 pm

Shadowrun's level of scientific accuracy was a source of much mirth for my old college group. Cargo cult science is a staple of *punk, of course, but Shadowrun in particular tries so hard to contrast its overt fantasy elements with serious-sounding technical jargon that you can't help but like them for trying -- and, of course, it helps that they aren't actually aiming for actual scientific accuracy.

It's just a nice middle ground between the people loudly insisting that their games are so realistic and accurate (Eclipse Phase, for example) and Star Trek whateverino gibberish. Parts of it are plausible enough to suggest how they might work, and most of the rest is either explicitly supernatural or at least doesn't distract from things.

That, and it's exploitable as all get out if you play with a bunch of engineers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 04, 2019, 02:36:48 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on January 04, 2019, 02:20:50 pm

Shadowrun's level of scientific accuracy was a source of much mirth for my old college group. Cargo cult science is a staple of *punk, of course, but Shadowrun in particular tries so hard to contrast its overt fantasy elements with serious-sounding technical jargon that you can't help but like them for trying -- and, of course, it helps that they aren't actually aiming for actual scientific accuracy.

It's just a nice middle ground between the people loudly insisting that their games are so realistic and accurate (Eclipse Phase, for example) and Star Trek whateverino gibberish. Parts of it are plausible enough to suggest how they might work, and most of the rest is either explicitly supernatural or at least doesn't distract from things.

That, and it's exploitable as all get out if you play with a bunch of engineers.

Yeah, the best science is the bit where everything that can work by real science does, but anything that doesn't is explained by magic instead. One of my favorite ideas I've seen is a space opera where the artificial gravity was simply done by enchanting the ship.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 04, 2019, 07:59:11 pm

I just figure the mega-corporations are dumping cheap gene editing compounds into their soy based foodstuffs to enhance baseline human resiliency. Easy way to ensure workers are healthy (no sick days), work harder (stronger muscles), and less prone to injury in hazardous environments (thicker skin, lower injury risk, faster healing).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 04, 2019, 08:35:32 pm

Shadowrun was following Numenera rules before Numenera was a twinkle in Monte Cook's eye. Everything is secretly nanobots.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 10, 2019, 06:27:57 pm

So my brother and I were talking about a stupid character idea for D&D 5e. Basic idea was a food critic, but it kind of turned into just a critic in general.

Basic mechanical idea was a Kenku Mastermind Rogue with terrible dex and strength, but using the Help action as a Bonus Action at 30 feet from Mastermind's features, with the bonus from the Historian feat from 8th level, and casting Vicious Mockery from either a Bard dip or the Magic Initiate feat. Everything skill wise possible is dumped into knowledge skills and other gentile abilities, nothing particularly adventuring related.

Aesthetically we imagine him as a big fat pidgeon man, one of the ones with the big puffed up chest but also just generally fat on top of that. Struts around puffed up with arrogance and condescension, offering useful advice in a demeaning manner and followed by a rather put upon retainer who has to carry his special long cutlery for him (think the stuff used when people wore very wide ruffs.)

Something akin to Anton Ego from Ratatouille personality wise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 10, 2019, 07:46:56 pm

I like that character idea! So long as the rest of the party's on board with a character that doesn't contribute in combat, it offers a really cool option for roleplaying.

Last week my group was short of players, down to four instead of our usual six. Despite that, our intrepid guardsmen managed to pull a fast one on Bruce 'Sharky' Sharpe, the local supplier of 'green death,' the latest narcotic on the streets. Sharky was selling this dangerous substance in the city's slums, but given how cheap and addictive it is, the group's mission was to discover the source of this substance to ensure it didn't spread into the rest of the city and cause a crime wave after the addicts unerringly turned psychopathically violent.

The group managed to track down Sharky, disguise themselves as addicts, and convince Sharky they were defending him by dressing up a few local criminals in their own city guard outfits and executing them in front of Sharky (courtesy of our chaotic evil rogue).

They'd previously learned that Sharky was a natural lycanthrope, specifically a were-shark, and one tough customer in a fight. Given the group was all level one, a well placed blow could probably kill any of them in one round, so they used a remarkably rare show of insight in setting an ambush. The evil rogue gained Sharky's trust, being given the honor of accompanying him to visit the gnome who manufactured the drugs in his Breaking Bad style cookhouse down in the city's sewers. After returning, the group ambushed Sharky, and the defeat was a remarkable victory for all involved, especially given the mini-boss was balanced for their full party of six players.

Still, I'm sad I won't be able to bring back Sharky's horrible Australian outback accent again. He was a hell of a lot of fun to portray.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on January 10, 2019, 08:22:42 pm

I've been looking at Shadow of the Demon Lord, a dark fantasy RPG that seems to be a bit of a grab bag mechanics-wise: 4 attributes, numerous characteristics derived from those, dice rolling involved d20s and d6s, also tracks both Insanity and Corruption. It takes place in a world on the verge of Armageddon, with the titular Demon Lord causing the world to become more and more craptastic as he/she/it gets closer.

I'm hoping that someone here has tried it, and can offer their insights on how well it works. Or doesn't work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 10, 2019, 10:57:37 pm

First session of my Pathfinder game was tonight. I have rolled up a half-orc rogue a la Krod (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/6cg1jy/the_tale_of_krod_the_half_orc_rogue/). I went greataxe so I didn't have to spend a feat on 2h flail. We did 4d6b3 and ended up with things mostly in the 14-17 range. One 11, one 13. With my half-orc bonus, my rogue has 19 strength. I've got a similar attack to our barbarian and greater than half the HP. I could be anything with this. I chose to be my own take on a joke.

Quote from: Sirus on January 10, 2019, 08:22:42 pm

I've been looking at Shadow of the Demon Lord, a dark fantasy RPG that seems to be a bit of a grab bag mechanics-wise: 4 attributes, numerous characteristics derived from those, dice rolling involved d20s and d6s, also tracks both Insanity and Corruption. It takes place in a world on the verge of Armageddon, with the titular Demon Lord causing the world to become more and more craptastic as he/she/it gets closer.

I'm hoping that someone here has tried it, and can offer their insights on how well it works. Or doesn't work.

Yay SotDL. I haven't played but I did flip through it several times. Seems to be very well-received.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on January 11, 2019, 03:59:28 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 10, 2019, 07:46:56 pm

I like that character idea! So long as the rest of the party's on board with a character that doesn't contribute in combat, it offers a really cool option for roleplaying.

Well, to be fair, he can give advantage to attacks, and make his allies better at Athletics/Acrobatics. So, he's still contributing, just less contributing to damage.

Actually, why is he a rogue, instead of a bard who's instrument is criticism and has a bunch of spells based around criticism? He could still take 3 levels of Rogue for Mastermind if you wish.

possible spells.
Suggestion:In my true, honest, and humble opinion, you should follow me into this dark alleyway. The chances of this being an ambush are so low!
Healing Word: Oh, GET UP! My Grandmother was better at tanking than you!
Message: Psst. You suck.
Sending: Psst. you suck a lot.
Identify: And on this episode on Antiques and Magic Items Roadshow... We have this complete trash.
Bane: Wow. Just... wow... -_-
Feather Fall: Come on! My granny could make that jump!
Silence: Silence! I can't hear the sound of my beautiful voice!
Fear: Yellow-bellied coward.
Stinking Cloud: Every word out of you is just straight up crap.
Enhance Ability: A child could do this!
Hideous Laughter: These buffoons don't know to take things seriously!
Enthrall: Look at my radiance!
Detect Magic/ Counterspell: Hmm... These wizards are ridiculous. They hardly know how to cast a spell!
Modify Memory: No, that is not what happened at all! This is what happened!
Mass Suggestion: Trust me, armor is not at all the current fashion. Just take it off all that armor.
Resurrection: Come on! Death is so last season!
Glibness: Trust my critiques. They are honest and true. Robes of Flaying are completely safe and the newest fashion.
Power word kill: Oh, just die already!
True Polymorph: This is what you should look like!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 11, 2019, 04:55:33 pm

I am already beginning to regret joining this Pathfinder game. I wanted a nice chill game to play while having a drink.

"Hey, Join my Pathfinder thing. Core books. Roll 4d6b3 for stats, you can reroll once. No Evil."

Great. Amazing! Whatever, alignment doesn't matter. Start rolling up characters. Now I have to interact with the other players.

"I'm building a homunculus alchemist or some shit. Also install this random FG plugin containing more obscure whatevers I can take."

"Hey, can I be Evil? Evil doesn't mean what you think. LE isn't 'murder at random' so it'd be okay if I'm LE."

"Hey, can I have another reroll? I really need 16+ in literally every stat to be effective."

"Since we have to have a Profession, can mine be Murderhobo?"

"Mind if one or two more people join?"
"That'd thin the experience but maybe we can take on bigger threats and get more experience."


So far, it's pretty much everything I hate about 3.PF.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 11, 2019, 04:57:23 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 11, 2019, 04:55:33 pm

So far, it's pretty much everything I hate about 3.PF.

The players?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 11, 2019, 06:22:44 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 11, 2019, 04:57:23 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 11, 2019, 04:55:33 pm

So far, it's pretty much everything I hate about 3.PF.

The players?

I mean, that is a pretty consistent 3.PF problem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 11, 2019, 06:32:54 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on January 11, 2019, 03:59:28 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 10, 2019, 07:46:56 pm

I like that character idea! So long as the rest of the party's on board with a character that doesn't contribute in combat, it offers a really cool option for roleplaying.

Well, to be fair, he can give advantage to attacks, and make his allies better at Athletics/Acrobatics. So, he's still contributing, just less contributing to damage.

Actually, why is he a rogue, instead of a bard who's instrument is criticism and has a bunch of spells based around criticism? He could still take 3 levels of Rogue for Mastermind if you wish.

My brother asked the same thing, my answer was that overt magic is too useful for the concept. The guy was supposed to be a near total-noncombatant food critic in his most initial envisioning, with Viscious Mockery being added only because we started bouncing condescending insults back and forth in a snobby voice while talking about him and decided it would be a funny combo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 11, 2019, 06:45:46 pm

College of Lore also has the delightful Cutting Words, which is the art of insulting someone to the point that they become considerably worse at whatever it was they were doing. Unfortunately you can only use it as long as you've got charges of inspiration left, but still...

And it uses a reaction! So with 3 Mastermind/3 Lore Bard, you could Vicious Mockery with your action, give helpful criticism with your bonus action, and give unhelpful criticism with your reaction. All in one turn! It's a lot of levels, though...

Quote from: Cruxador on January 11, 2019, 06:22:44 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 11, 2019, 04:57:23 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 11, 2019, 04:55:33 pm

So far, it's pretty much everything I hate about 3.PF.

The players?

I mean, that is a pretty consistent 3.PF problem.

I hear they're working on patching players out of the next edition, which is going to provide the most streamlined tabletop gaming experience to date!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on January 12, 2019, 10:30:16 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on January 11, 2019, 06:22:44 pm

I mean, that is a pretty consistent 3.PF problem.

It's a system agnostic problem.  After years of seeing this problem in action, I've come to believe that the less players in a game, the better.  The one-on-one games I've done over the years have frequently been among my favorites.

But I can imagine the problem is particularly significant in D&D and derivatives.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 13, 2019, 12:16:42 am

The problem went away once we started playing. I was worried it would carry on past character creation but it did not. Ignore my previous complaint, though I still detest that style of gaming.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on January 13, 2019, 03:55:03 pm

Character creation can be a gross thing.

It's why I love the fact I'm obsessed with theorycrafting characters. Never anything hyper-optimized to tackle every problem. I like to think "How can I tackle this single problem?"

For example, we had a bunch of downtime recently since we decided to say "Fuck this noise" after we nearly lost our tank to a sentient direweasel that could control swarms.

My druid character crafts magic items. And is the new herbalism nature bond variant (with a few table-specific caveats). I am the proud owner of a handy haversack stuffed with 1/2 crafting cost potions that heal 11 HP each outside of battle. Alongside a few tasty others. Plus at level six my wisdom bonus is +8 thanks to a +6 headband.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 13, 2019, 04:25:52 pm

I'm also a fan of theory-crafting, especially if it allows me to not-so-subtly insert easter eggs into the game, like a mutation warrior fighter carrying a silver and a steel greatsword who hunts monsters for bounties.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 13, 2019, 05:21:37 pm

Quote from: Telgin on January 12, 2019, 10:30:16 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on January 11, 2019, 06:22:44 pm

I mean, that is a pretty consistent 3.PF problem.

It's a system agnostic problem.  After years of seeing this problem in action, I've come to believe that the less players in a game, the better.  The one-on-one games I've done over the years have frequently been among my favorites.

But I can imagine the problem is particularly significant in D&D and derivatives.

It's roughly proportional to the popularity of the system, in my experience. When playing obscure systems, I've had great groups made from just whoever showed interest online, whereas D&D takes years to filter through people or just playing with your existing group. Of course there can be exceptions either way, but that's the tendency in my experience.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 13, 2019, 05:53:39 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on January 13, 2019, 05:21:37 pm

Quote from: Telgin on January 12, 2019, 10:30:16 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on January 11, 2019, 06:22:44 pm

I mean, that is a pretty consistent 3.PF problem.

It's a system agnostic problem.  After years of seeing this problem in action, I've come to believe that the less players in a game, the better.  The one-on-one games I've done over the years have frequently been among my favorites.

But I can imagine the problem is particularly significant in D&D and derivatives.

It's roughly proportional to the popularity of the system

Having been in D&D 5e, 3.5e, and now PF games, in addition to all of the non-D&D.PF games, I've only experienced this when dealing with 3.PF.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 14, 2019, 05:41:47 am

Probably as a symptom of the system. The crunchier the rules, the less it's attractive to casual players, and the more munchkinry becomes an issue. And when it comes to crunch, nothing beats 3rd edition and the derivatives.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 14, 2019, 08:38:02 am

I stright up vetoed 5e in the recent changing of the GMs in my sunday group.  Problem is, I'm the one who can run a dozen (maybe more) systems at the drop of a hat, and the next broadest GM is the one we're switching out from due to GM-fatigue.  Of the four remaining people, only one fo them could run ANYTHING but 5e.

Just... jesus christ, go and learn other systems. I hate 5e (not least because if you want what 5e is, but better in every conceivable fashion, you should play 13th Age) and it's bothering me that unless I choose to run, I'm going to have to play 5e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 14, 2019, 09:07:36 am

Quote from: Rowanas on January 14, 2019, 08:38:02 am

if you want what 5e is, but better in every conceivable fashion, you should play 13th Age

What I'm reading, this doesn't appear accurate. You could conceivably use most/all of your class features (unless you're a barbarian or something, I guess) outside of combat. It appears that many, many of your class features are exclusive to combat scenarios in 13th Age. And while in combat scenarios, the characters usually do the one thing they're good at. If all you do is combat, I guess it'd be a good choice.

Quote

and it's bothering me that unless I choose to run, I'm going to have to play 5e.

[tinyviolin]

That's the issue that people who enjoy trying new systems face as well. I've got a whole shelf of shit. I can't play any of it but the tiny D&D section (or occasionally Savage Worlds) unless I run it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on January 14, 2019, 09:48:06 am

Running into that issue myself. I'm considering whether to run a second game just to try some of these more esoteric systems out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rowanas on January 14, 2019, 10:07:06 am

Quote from: Sirus on January 14, 2019, 09:48:06 am

Running into that issue myself. I'm considering whether to run a second game just to try some of these more esoteric systems out.

Fortunately I also have 7th Sea  and Savage Worlds games going on, but I don't want to drop out of my sunday group, even temporarily, even though I'd rather do anything with that time than play 5e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 10:32:58 am

I was actually part of a group that was going to try out an online game of 13th Age because the DM recommended it. I started reading a little bit about it, and that's when the trouble began.

I wasn't a fan of the "What is your obvious plot hook?" Field of the character sheet. I ended up getting into a small fight with the DM about what to put there.

Then I read about "Roll to disagree with the DM" and I was already mostly lost. The DM was also pissed with me not digging the blatant plot-hookery, and that added to a bunch of other issues happening at the same time so the game ended up never getting started.

And that was my 13th Age experience! An argument about stew...


As for 5th, I dunno... I haven't really formed a proper opinion of it yet. Sure, there's a bit of heavy-handed streamlining in places, and spellcasters are at least as broken as they've always been, but I think my main gripe so far is just how much is left intentionally vague/up to the DM.

Sure, it "grants freedom" to allow the DM and players to shape a unique experience, but experienced DMs already know that they can tweak and bend rules as it suits them. Inexperienced masters, on the other hand, will be left with a whole bunch of tricky decisions to make and no firm framework to help them out in making them. DMs are already by far the minority compared to players, and 5th seems to raise the importance of getting a good DM while making it scarier for a newbie to try and become one.

It also increases DM workload, like they didn't already have enough to deal with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 14, 2019, 10:41:45 am

Quote from: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 10:32:58 am

I was actually part of a group that was going to try out an online game of 13th Age because the DM recommended it. I started reading a little bit about it, and that's when the trouble began.

I wasn't a fan of the "What is your obvious plot hook?" Field of the character sheet. I ended up getting into a small fight with the DM about what to put there.

Then I read about "Roll to disagree with the DM" and I was already mostly lost. The DM was also pissed with me not digging the blatant plot-hookery, and that added to a bunch of other issues happening at the same time so the game ended up never getting started.

And that was my 13th Age experience! An argument about stew...

That's been mine as well. It's built by and for people with a very specific idea of what counts as bogging down the game versus playing the game, and the non-combat parts are decidedly perfunctory. Backgrounds, for example, run mostly on player/GM agreement in the absence of specific guidelines. It's very much a product of the "yet another fantasy heartbreaker" theory of design that dramatic heroism means fighting lots of things and everything else is just there to give context to that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 14, 2019, 10:45:11 am

Quote from: Sirus on January 14, 2019, 09:48:06 am

Running into that issue myself. I'm considering whether to run a second game just to try some of these more esoteric systems out.

If you're looking for a fun system, I actually had a lot of fun with the Stars Without Number: Revised Edition that came out in 2017. Of course, I went the zany route, playing a backworlder who claimed he was a Wizard, lobbing grenade 'fireballs' at anything remotely threatening and getting kneed in the crotch by just about every female we came across.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 11:18:01 am

Fair warning that Stars Without Number is an OSR game so it's still heavily related to Dungeons and Dragons.  To put it simply, it's like DnD except you only have like 5 HP at level 1, skills are based on 2d6 instead of 1d20 (although combat is still d20s), and the AC system is more like precursors to DnD than modern versions where your AC goes down with better armor.  I remember we houseruled the death rules so people didn't drop like flies, but hitting 0 HP was a very high likelihood of dying, without 10 HP you have below 0 in 3.5.  Combat is very, very dangerous at level 1.

Of course, being heavily related to DnD in its mechanics might make it an easier sell to game groups who are used to that.  The revised edition stepped away from some of that though, I think, but I only have experience with the original.

I'm going to have a chance to try out a modern version of Traveller soon, and I can see that SWN took some inspiration from it.  This should be fun, since its game mechanics are actually fairly different from the D20 system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 11:27:47 am

Quote from: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 11:18:01 am

To put it simply, it's like DnD except you only have like 5 HP at level 1

You sound like someone who doesn't roll their first hit die and just takes maximum, like a chump.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 14, 2019, 11:36:04 am

Quote from: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 10:32:58 am

As for 5th, I dunno... I haven't really formed a proper opinion of it yet. Sure, there's a bit of heavy-handed streamlining in places, and spellcasters are at least as broken as they've always been, but I think my main gripe so far is just how much is left intentionally vague/up to the DM.

What do you mean about this? I've run both 3.5 and 5e and imo, although 5e has less like........ Really fiddly edge case rules hidden away in some book or another (In 3.5 if a player ask me how hard it is to jump into a top corner of the room, cut though the paper wall, and then climb across the ceiling to drop down on top of the shogun and how much damage physically dropping on him does, I can have an actual published answer, whereas in 5e I'd have to make something up) but for most of the actual stuff you use in play it's mostly covered as much as you want and the game doesn't seem that vague to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 14, 2019, 11:50:38 am

Quote from: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 11:27:47 am

Quote from: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 11:18:01 am

To put it simply, it's like DnD except you only have like 5 HP at level 1

You sound like someone who doesn't roll their first hit die and just takes maximum, like a chump.

I bet the mad lad doesnt have a negative con modifier either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 14, 2019, 11:55:17 am

REAL role-players would be playing a CON 3 Barbarian. The worse your character's stats, the better you are at RPing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 12:16:38 pm

There are a number of spell instances, such as pretty much anything having to do with Illusion (Minor Illusion is particularly bad with this), plus a few other notable cantrips... Playing an Illusionist is only as powerful or useless as your DM decides it is at any given moment.

Whether or not an improvised weapon is actually an improvised weapon and thereby uses (and can benefit from) the Tavern Brawler feat, or if it's suitably weapon-like that you can just use it with your normal proficiency.

Is your lie "dramatic" enough that you can use Performance in place of Deception? When isn't it?

Tools.


There's something niggling (it's a word, I swear) in the back of my head about some other rule that's rather open to interpretation, but those were the things that came to mind offhand. Even just spells have a number of weird and/or muddy workings.

Some things are also just poorly described, such as how all of magic missile's darts strike simultaneously, meaning that an evoker wizard can add his INT mod to each dart... But a dragonblood sorceror can only add his CHA mod to one scorching ray, for example. Or that "nets should always be thrown with disadvantage", instead of giving it a minimum range of "ranged weapons are used at a disadvantage in melee" and a max range of "ranged weapons are used at a disadvantage when firing at long range" without actually mentioning that "yeah, we knew what we were doing, and this is how it works". Or how the crossbow expert skill officially regards the hand crossbow itself as "a one-handed weapon", meaning you can fire a single hand crossbow once and then fire the same one again as your bonus action... But if you're wielding something else in the other hand, you can't load it for a second shot, even though you're "ignoring the loading quality".

Except you can, because you can drop the other weapon as a "freer-than-free" action, reload as a non-action, and then pick up the weapon again as your turn's free action. Unless the DM says you can't because that's silly, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 12:22:13 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 14, 2019, 11:55:17 am

REAL role-players would be playing a CON 3 Barbarian. The worse your character's stats, the better you are at RPing.

Quote from: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 11:27:47 am

Quote from: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 11:18:01 am

To put it simply, it's like DnD except you only have like 5 HP at level 1

You sound like someone who doesn't roll their first hit die and just takes maximum, like a chump.

To be fair, that is pretty much how I played / am playing.  I knew what I wanted to play going in* and just let the dice fall where they would.  Ended up with a negative Constitution modifier and 4 HP at level 1, if I recall.  Warriors have a special ability that lets them ignore the first hit in each combat, which is the only reason my character is still alive.  That's actually kind of brokenly good.  I feel bad for anyone who isn't a warrior though.  Experts and psionic characters should stay away from bullets and lasers.

* There's a long story behind this but I actually wanted to play an engineer (Expert class) and let my stats tell me if I should play a warrior instead.  I rolled crappy physical stats that said I should play the engineer, but another player wanted to so I caved and played a warrior instead.  It worked out anyway.  She lost an arm to space rabies zombies and I didn't.

On that note though... yeah, I don't really like random stats in OSR games.  I'll play them without whining and play the bad stats up in RP, but I don't really like the idea in general if there's an alternative.  Amusingly, my Traveller character has atrocious stats due to the random rolling, but got stupidly lucky during character generation and somehow managed to graduate from the naval academy as an officer without any setbacks despite only having EDU 3, SOC 2, STR 4 and END 3.  DEX and INT were the only stats I had that were average.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on January 14, 2019, 08:47:02 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 10:32:58 am

I was actually part of a group that was going to try out an online game of 13th Age because the DM recommended it. I started reading a little bit about it, and that's when the trouble began.

I wasn't a fan of the "What is your obvious plot hook?" Field of the character sheet. I ended up getting into a small fight with the DM about what to put there.

Then I read about "Roll to disagree with the DM" and I was already mostly lost. The DM was also pissed with me not digging the blatant plot-hookery, and that added to a bunch of other issues happening at the same time so the game ended up never getting started.

And that was my 13th Age experience! An argument about stew...

I haven't played 13th Age, but, looking at the rules, it seemed like someone took D&D 4e and tacked on some narrativist rules, which really doesn't seem like it would work well.

Quote from: Jimmy on January 14, 2019, 10:45:11 am

Quote from: Sirus on January 14, 2019, 09:48:06 am

Running into that issue myself. I'm considering whether to run a second game just to try some of these more esoteric systems out.

If you're looking for a fun system, I actually had a lot of fun with the Stars Without Number: Revised Edition that came out in 2017. Of course, I went the zany route, playing a backworlder who claimed he was a Wizard, lobbing grenade 'fireballs' at anything remotely threatening and getting kneed in the crotch by just about every female we came across.

A new supplement came out for it recently called Codex of the Black Sun (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/259700/The-Codex-of-the-Black-Sun-Sorcery-for-Stars-Without-Number) that let's you play an actually wizard. Technically, you could play one in base Revised with a part of the Deluxe rules, but that was more a conversion guide to let you transfer spell list from older D&D and OSR games.

Quote from: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 11:18:01 am

Fair warning that Stars Without Number is an OSR game so it's still heavily related to Dungeons and Dragons.  To put it simply, it's like DnD except you only have like 5 HP at level 1, skills are based on 2d6 instead of 1d20 (although combat is still d20s), and the AC system is more like precursors to DnD than modern versions where your AC goes down with better armor.  I remember we houseruled the death rules so people didn't drop like flies, but hitting 0 HP was a very high likelihood of dying, without 10 HP you have below 0 in 3.5.  Combat is very, very dangerous at level 1.

Of course, being heavily related to DnD in its mechanics might make it an easier sell to game groups who are used to that.  The revised edition stepped away from some of that though, I think, but I only have experience with the original.

I'm going to have a chance to try out a modern version of Traveller soon, and I can see that SWN took some inspiration from it.  This should be fun, since its game mechanics are actually fairly different from the D20 system.

Revised edition works with ascending AC, though most of the rest of your comments still apply. Also, it has foci, which are like feats, but actually very powerful and character-defining, one of which can make you basically unkillable.

Quote from: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 12:22:13 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 14, 2019, 11:55:17 am

REAL role-players would be playing a CON 3 Barbarian. The worse your character's stats, the better you are at RPing.

Quote from: Kagus on January 14, 2019, 11:27:47 am

Quote from: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 11:18:01 am

To put it simply, it's like DnD except you only have like 5 HP at level 1

You sound like someone who doesn't roll their first hit die and just takes maximum, like a chump.

To be fair, that is pretty much how I played / am playing.  I knew what I wanted to play going in* and just let the dice fall where they would.  Ended up with a negative Constitution modifier and 4 HP at level 1, if I recall.  Warriors have a special ability that lets them ignore the first hit in each combat, which is the only reason my character is still alive.  That's actually kind of brokenly good.  I feel bad for anyone who isn't a warrior though.  Experts and psionic characters should stay away from bullets and lasers.

* There's a long story behind this but I actually wanted to play an engineer (Expert class) and let my stats tell me if I should play a warrior instead.  I rolled crappy physical stats that said I should play the engineer, but another player wanted to so I caved and played a warrior instead.  It worked out anyway.  She lost an arm to space rabies zombies and I didn't.

I think that's pretty much working as intended. One of the basic concepts of the game is that, if you happen to get into a fair fight of any sort, something has gone horribly wrong, and at that point it's the Warrior's time to since it's the only class actually made for combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on January 14, 2019, 09:14:12 pm

That's a fair point.  We've only been in a handful of fights, most of them on our terms, which is why we came out okay for the most part.  The vacuum breathing alien velociraptor that ambushed on a derelict kind of sucked though, and almost killed the same party member that had nearly died twice before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 15, 2019, 07:45:54 pm

The Sya-Gima

A 'spirit', that wanders the world seeking remnants of civilization and warning them of their coming destruction. The Sya-Gima most often takes the form of a sad old man or a magnificent talking Elk with gold fur. Sya-Gima doesn't push the issue of salvation, preferring to impart their warning then move to the next enclave with haste.

Brudd Ha'Jiir

A male who was once king during the Godswar, Brudd has forgotten himself and become a juggernaut of destruction, seeking only the next battle. He is an enormous and mighty Elf, wielding an equally massive axe. He cannot be dissuaded from seeking battle, though he has a deep love of riddles riddlesthat could... Perhaps... Break the dreadful spell of his berserk nature.

Probably more but mobile typing suuuucks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 15, 2019, 08:16:40 pm

The Bluescar tribe

A loose affiliation of humans who try to stay together without attracting the World's wrath. They all share the same scarification type tattoo on their cheek, and an aversion to overt displays of advancement. They often break into smaller groups and are highly nomadic, seeking to outrun any recognition of their unity and collaboration. They are highly conservative and greatly distrust outsiders.

Makku Makku

A beast of forgotten nature, Makku is an immense, six limbed lizard creature. Similar to a centaur, his upper third is remarkably humanoid, though covered in heavy armored scales. His lower body is that of a lizard below the neck, closely resembling a marine iguana but supersized. He is almost fifty feet long and jovial. Makku acts as a sort of roving trader/trash heap. He is not necessarily interested in the true material value of items, rather he has an alien idea of value closely related to shinyness and portability. He piles great haversacks of items on his lower body. He is incredibly dangerous despite his whimsical and friendly nature. (I'm thinking "on par with fighting an old dragon" here)

The Visages of Before

Ghosts of dead gods, they seek resurrection, vengeance, vindication, or perhaps all three. There are many Visages, and each is uniquely terrifying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 15, 2019, 09:03:55 pm

Fair enough. I'm just word-salading but coherently so feel free to use or ignore anything I post.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 15, 2019, 10:31:03 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 15, 2019, 09:50:26 pm

So, this sent me on a little exploration of Finnish culture, and two things were revealed unto me:

1) The Finns REALLY love saunas. Apparently one of the first things the Finnish soldiers erected in the UNMEE was a sauna, a WWII field manual said that 8 hours is all that's needed for a battalion to erect saunas and make use of them, and there are no ranks in saunas.
2) Following on from the love of saunas, I found out why there are so many videos of them jumping into snow butt naked. It's traditional, once you get too hot (Saunas are apparently between 80 and 110 degrees celsius without taking into account the humidity, so I imagine it's pretty frequent) to jump into a river, lake, have a shower, or, during winter, dive into the snow.

Yep, this is probably the most famous thing about Finnish culture. They also beat themselves or each other with brush from the woods. And I've talked to one guy who has done it with barbed wire, which just goes to show some people are crazy even by Finnish standards. But yeah, saunas are great. I recommend non-Finns try it too. It's not nice at first but after being in and out a few times it is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 15, 2019, 10:33:40 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 15, 2019, 09:50:26 pm

So, this sent me on a little exploration of Finnish culture, and two things were revealed unto me:

1) The Finns REALLY love saunas. Apparently one of the first things the Finnish soldiers erected in the UNMEE was a sauna, a WWII field manual said that 8 hours is all that's needed for a battalion to erect saunas and make use of them, and there are no ranks in saunas.
2) Following on from the love of saunas, I found out why there are so many videos of them jumping into snow butt naked. It's traditional, once you get too hot (Saunas are apparently between 80 and 110 degrees celsius without taking into account the humidity, so I imagine it's pretty frequent) to jump into a river, lake, have a shower, or, during winter, dive into the snow.

I'm surprised you missed perkele; it's usually one of the first things people run into.

At any rate, when you say Iron Age Finland (which, incidentally, runs from about 500 BC - 0 AD), how historical are you aiming for?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 15, 2019, 11:48:49 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 15, 2019, 11:10:37 pm

If you've got any suggestions for other stuff to think about, I'd appreciate it.

You've got the broad strokes. I'd add that, as a good deal of Finnish soil is plow-foulingly stony clay and they consequently used slash-and-burn agriculture, you'd expect the farming communities to drift around as all the soil within reasonable working distance was used up, which in turn informs how and why they track seasons. Some sort of multi-annual forest-burning festival would fit in, if you wanted, and there's just about room to squeeze in D&D-style "balance of nature" druids as wardens of that process.

Depending on how much geography you copy, you may want to consider putting those few proper towns on rivers, because they've got boats and not an abundance of land over which you'd want to regularly take cattle-drawn wagons -- and, of course, fishing's as important here as it is everywhere. That also means I'd expect long-distance travel and communication, such as it is, to totally stop every winter, so if you want to map your cultural areas, putting them in river networks more than a season's travel apart would make a lot of sense.

About the only thing I'd change is the degree to which different cultures are specialized, because northern Scandinavia/Karelia didn't undergo the same seismic cultural shifts as other places during the Neolithic Revolution. They just didn't have the land to go farm-crazy. It's certainly possible for different cultures to be known for different things, but even down to the level of individual hamlets there's going to be people who fish, farm, and hunt. There's also evidence that they had more native iron smelting than you'd think, but that's down to local ore availability anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 16, 2019, 01:47:49 am

Bog iron is, iirc, just as common in Finland as it were in Sweden - however as with Sweden, what they lacked was proper cultural steel working knowledge. For example even in the days of viking raiding one of the most prized people to enthrall was foreign metalworkers, Swedish smiths just didn't have the know-how to consistently produce the same quality steel equipment. There's a whole different thing from "smelts metal and smiths tools for everyday uses" to "consistently smiths high grade weaponry and armour to the point of commonplacity".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 16, 2019, 04:04:08 am

Quote from: Trekkin on January 15, 2019, 10:33:40 pm

I'm surprised you missed perkele; it's usually one of the first things people run into.

Spoiler: Relevant (click to show/hide)

(https://satwcomic.com/art/bear-whisperer.png)
Canadian Source (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O33JRDumOM)
Finnish Source (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7_pVrIshxA)

Campaign Idea:

Outsiders from another plane have recently begun visiting the prime material plane, raiding it for resources and slaves as well as turning areas into dumping grounds for their violent prisoners/toxic waste/undead abominations/cursed items or whatnot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 16, 2019, 04:16:51 am

Quote from: greatorder on January 15, 2019, 06:03:54 pm

Wondering if anyone's got any ideas as to... well, anything given this setting.

Have you considered magic yet?

In Finnish mythology, practically everything has a specific origin ('synty', lit. 'birth', pl. 'synnyt'), a story of where it came from and what made it what it is today. To know this origin is to have power over the thing; the farther back, the better. These origins are stored in an oral tradition: songs and poems ('loitsu', pl. 'loitsut', lit. 'spell'), though they often lack a detail, a trust-word ('luote', pl. 'luotteet') that is held secret from the uninitiated. A shaman ('tietäjä', lit. 'one who knows', pl. 'tietäjät') can sing these songs and poems in their complete forms and thus gain control of their subjects. For example, one who knows the origin of iron can call upon an ancient oath to force the iron to heal a wound it has caused.

There's also the matter of souls: in Finnish mythology, a human has several, or maybe just one composed of several parts (historians disagree). These souls or parts of soul are 'henki' (breath, pl. 'henget'), 'itse' (self, pl. 'itset') and 'luonto' (nature, pl. 'luonnot'), and there may be more depending on who you ask. The henki is the general force that keeps you alive; lose it and you're dead. The itse is what makes you different from everyone else; lose it and you lose all self-esteem and probably fall into depression. The luonto is a faerie that protects you from evil, similar to the Christian concept of a guardian angel; lose it and evil forces and faeries will get to you. The luonto is also what translates the magic songs into actual effects. Also notable is that a luonto can be taken from someone else, usually after death but by legend sometimes from the living as well; the reason for this is that luonnot vary in power, and if a would-be magician doesn't have a strong enough luonto, they might turn to stealing...

Speaking of fairies, they are known as 'etiäiset' (sing. 'etiäinen', lit. 'distant-ling') or 'väki' (uncountable, lit. 'folk' or 'strength') or 'keijut' (sing. 'keiju') or 'haltijat' (sing. 'haltija', lit. 'keeper' or 'elf'). Evil ones are called 'kateet' (sing. 'kade', lit. 'jealosity') and can possess humans to make them evil ('kateellinen', lit. 'jealous'). More benign ones are generally content with being left alone, though if you disturb them (such as by building a house on top of their underground one), they may be vengeful. If one doesn't want to use loitsut to banish them, treating them like a good neighbour is enough to appease them: for example, never extinguish a sauna, instead let it burn out on its own so that the fairies can use it once you're done. Many types of fairies exist, such as 'metsänväki' (forest-folk), 'maahiset' (sing. 'maahinen', lit. 'earth-ling'), 'vetehiset' (sing. 'vetehinen', lit. water-ling) and 'ilmahiset' (sing. 'ilmahinen', lit. air-ling), and they can be as different from each other as they are from humans. In fact, depending on definition, humans can be considered to be a type of fairy: 'ihminen', the word for 'human' can be read as 'wonder-ling' and the alternative spelling, 'immeinen' as 'virgin-ling'.

Yes, Finnish fairies think we're all virgins.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 16, 2019, 04:44:20 am

Here's one.

A generic archetype for a cursed immortal.  (You can make this whatever gender, race, ethnicity you want.)

Many cultures have such an archetype; Somebody that succeeded in the mad quest to become immortal, but then finds the inability to die much more than they bargained for, and they disconnect from every society, and enter a dark and endless ennui about the subject.

Considering that this setting has access to epic/9th level magic without restrictions (because the gods are dead), succeeding in this endeavor should be possible.

While not Scandinavian in nature, you could look to the Mesopotamian myth character of Utnapishtim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utnapishtim) for some inspiration.  That story though, is the progenitor to modern "noah and the flood" myths of latter religions, so something you might not want to copy.  (Just borrow bits from, such as seeking and attaining immortality.) You might also combine it with bits from greek mythology, such as how Prometheus stole fire from the gods.   You could end up with a sorcerer/sorceress, that exploits the chaos of the godswar to claim immortality for him/herself while the gods are distracted, succeeds, but then has to watch as the world goes berserk and prevents civilization (such as they remember it) from ever returning.

A hilarious twist might be to combine the "end of the world" myth of the death of Yggdrasi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil)l, the world tree, in the sordid tale.  Say, while the gods are distracted, the sorcerer/sorceress uses magic to travel to Yggdrasil, steals a branch from it along with some sap, and water from the well beneath, to create the elixir of life, and to become the true master of his/her own destiny.  (See also, the poetic edda concerning the Norns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns).  In your setting, they would be killed by the godswar, however-- the sorcerer/sorceress would have imbibed some of the wellspring water, and thus would have "a measure" of that power, in accordance with your views that they can return. However, this sorcerer/sorceress refuses that destiny, being able to freely choose it.)

In so doing, you would end up with a prometheus like character, who unwittingly creates the alternative foundations for this mutated material plane (The sorcerer/sorceress grows the stolen branch in a pot (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2267504/The-sealed-bottle-garden-thriving-40-years-fresh-air-water.html), creating a second, shrimpy and stunted world tree that survives the gods war, where the tree it came from gets burned up completely. This has parallels to Utnapishtim, who is given a magical herb to become immortal; but also ties in knowledge and fate. (the well beneath the world tree is said to be the source of the deep knowledge and wisdom of the 3 goddesses/wise women who laid down the laws of the earth, aka, the Norns) This character has very advanced knowledge and power, but is not a god/goddess, and in truth, now deeply regrets the decision to become immortal, as this person is now cursed horribly by that knowledge.  (What worse fate can you give a sorcerer, than to give them immense knowledge or power that the very world itself wrangles to prevent from being used?)  We can tie in an archetype for a great library here as well if we like-- which, given the nature of the world you are depicting, would all be knowledge from before the godswar, and thus "Forbidden" by the new nature of the material plane.

Such a story would be very compelling and tantalizing to "contemporary" spell casters, as both a cautionary tale, and as something that tempts them. (Seeking the old one out, to gain their knowledge, despite the price.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 16, 2019, 04:55:55 am

Instead of using filthy coinage, convert the world's economy over to a nobler currency of meat chunks and wooden fox traps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 16, 2019, 05:06:08 am

Quote from: Kagus on January 16, 2019, 04:55:55 am

Instead of using filthy coinage, convert the world's economy over to a nobler currency of meat chunks and wooden fox traps.

Why stop there?  Turn the mechanic on its damned head, and make it a full barter based society.  (Standard coinage implies a well established social hierarchy, which this setting forbids! Coin based money is incompatible!)

That means you will have to write a replacement for any GC costs for item creation, but I am sure you can do it. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on January 16, 2019, 05:39:06 am

I can add to IcyTea's stuff on Finnish mythology. I’d be happy to answer any questions you might have on Finnish myths and folklore, I'm not an expert, but I've studied the topic a bit. Let me dig up my course notes... *shuffle shuffle*

Tietäjät tietää

To add on tietäjät and their role... the tietäjät (singular ’tietäjä’, come up with something else if that twists your tongue too much) were essentially the wise men/women of the village. These were people you turned to for healing, for dealing with the (restless) dead, finding lost cattle and stolen stuff, turning curses/damages back at the person who caused them, fixing your, uh, bedroom problems, etc. It's mostly very low-key and mundane stuff, but Väinämöinen, the OG bard, does stuff in the Kalevala (Finnish national epic) like singing people into swamps and other badass shit. Songs and singing is generally important to Finnish magic and rituals.

Tietäjät needed to be ’hard of nature’, having a powerful luonto, which maybe means strong-willed and forceful in practice as well. You could tie that into some stat or mechanical aspect. How they accomplished things differed; some went into shamanistic trances, others jumped around wildly in ecstatic inspiration, some did ritualistic stuff. You had subsets and variants: witches and 'trullit' who did harmful stuff, seers, herbalists. Women who’d take care of the bodies of the dead and act as midwives were referred to as 'strong-blooded', though that's not a profession/category per se, more of a quality. Later on Christian priests were there as an alternative - the two existed side by side for centuries to choose from.

The Spirits Grow Restless

Finnish pagan/folklorish ideas of disease and healing generally held that whatever affliction plagued you was the result of a supernatural taint, caused by disturbing/disrespecting the dead or angering the spirits/supernatural beings (’väki’ in Finnish, there's loads of kinds). You could also have lost your soul, been possessed, or been attacked with a noidannuoli (witch’s arrow, some kind of magical projectile), resulting in various ailments. This would be cured by rituals, especially ritual washing, and taking you to the source of the taint to be purified (so to the water if you were thought to be hurt by spirits of the water, the graveyard if the dead, etc).

Generally in magic similarity/connections were important, so you’d use ritual objects like snakeskins, bear paws, belongings of the deceased when dealing with those things.

Bear With Me

The most important being in Finnish paganism is absolutely the bear. Even modern Finnish has countless words for ’bear’ because you could not call it by its true name. The bear had a heavenly/divine origin, so it was a Big Deal. The furs and meat they offered were very important to Finnish communities, so people both feared them and wanted them to return. You couldn’t kill a bear while it was asleep - the soul might not be present, and you want it to be present when killing it.

When bears were killed, there was a whole festival/ritual (’peijaiset’) where people sung to the bear to mollify/deceive it (trying to convince it that it had died in an accident or been killed by foreigners, heh) and someone was chosen to ritually marry the bear. The hunters are also called ’suitors’ and the whole thing framed as a kind of courtship, it’s nifty. There's some evidence that bears and humans were thought to be kin, and could have children with one another. The whole bear would be eaten and the bones returned to the forest to be reused by bears. I like to think a new bear would straight-up reform from them.

So for the love of Ukko, make bears the holy kings of the forest they are, the dragons of the campaign. Bears are already terrifying in real life, so imagine a bear that's divine and supernatural too!

Gods and Beings

I'm not all that well-read on the Finnish gods themselves and there's not all that much concrete information on them. Ukko Ylijumala ('Old Man Overgod') is (possibly) the head honcho, a sky/storm/harvest god, goes around with a hammer, beseeched and used in rituals before battle/hunting/harvest stuff. You might notice the similarities to certain deities in surrounding cultures, whodathunk. He's married to Akka ('Old Woman'), maybe associated with fertility. Women and, uh, their genitalia were generally held to have great power and there's a bunch of rituals I don't think I'm going to describe here. I'm not sure if that's something you'll want to work into your campaign in the year of 2019, but hey, why not.

Other likely-important-but-who-knows gods were Tapio, king of the forest, with his wife Mielikki*, mistress of the forest, and their many daughters; Ahti, god of water/the sea; Väinämöinen, the aforementioned OG bard (but he's also kind of a... culture/folk hero?) and Ilmarinen, master smith (the same deal). The problem is that we don't really know how ancient Finns actually thought of these beings - should we call them spirits or gods or what? For your purposes, it doesn't matter all that much. Perkele was also a god before the word began to mean 'the devil' and then turned into a curse word, so work him in so you can keep shouting Perkele over and over at your table.

Giants and other familiar beings exist in Finnish beliefs just the same. There's a lot of overlap with the myths and folklore of surrounding cultures, plus centuries of later interpretation and modification, and so little point in trying to find some kind of 'pure' mythology. I wouldn't be too worried about mixing and matching a bit.

Googling these things should yield you more information. I'm prolly forgetting some really obvious stuff. Reading a synopsis of the Kalevala could also be worthwhile.

*Isn't Mielikki used as a name for some god in a DnD setting? I can see what they were going for, but the problem is that Mielikki today is a name you'd give to a cow, not a powerful and mighty deity. Oh well...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 16, 2019, 06:41:54 am

I believe several native American nations regarded bears as being the closest relatives of humans as well, particularly in the Pacific Northwest. I suppose there aren't that many other forest critters that regularly stand on two legs...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 16, 2019, 06:50:36 am

I really think that as a Swede, I am a much more trustworthy source of information on Finns than the Finns themselves.

Quote from: Kagus on January 16, 2019, 06:41:54 am

I believe several native American nations regarded bears as being the closest relatives of humans as well, particularly in the Pacific Northwest. I suppose there aren't that many other forest critters that regularly stand on two legs...

Jokes aside, I read somewhere that the Sami legends say that their people originated from a bear and a woman. So all Sami are descended from bears, like.

One might say the woman beared him a child.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on January 16, 2019, 08:19:47 am

Interesting.  The founding mythology of Korea also held that their founder was a Heavenly King who wed a bear who became human through perserverence and personal privation.  The bear and tiger wished to become human, but such a thing was an act against heaven.  Nonetheless struck by their entreaties, the Heavenly King personally intervened to give each a bundle of mugwort and 20 cloves of garlic, saying that if they remained in a cave for 100 days with no company and no sunlight eating only those things, they would become human.  The tiger was impatient and fled after days, but the bear was transformed after a mere 21 days into a beautiful woman, who would later wed said Heavenly King (who himself became human to do so) and together found the royal house of Gojoseon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 16, 2019, 08:49:59 am

Quote from: Culise on January 16, 2019, 08:19:47 am

Nonetheless struck by their entreaties, the Heavenly King personally intervened to give each a bundle of mugwort and 20 cloves of garlic, saying that if they remained in a cave for 100 days with no company and no sunlight eating only those things, they would become human.

I really hope he gave them some mouthwash as well. I'm pretty sure that you could kill people by breathing on them after living on mugwort and garlic for over three months.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 16, 2019, 09:32:33 am

I wish I still had Asraen's character sheet to impart to you Greatorder. He was an Afflicted Half Celestial Werebear paladin + some other synergistic class in wild half plate with a super-smitey greatsword. Basically an avenging winged angel-bear-man.

He could accidentally big bads.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=460935 (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=460935)

Behold! Possibly a big good or maybe just a random npc

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on January 16, 2019, 11:36:18 am

As for the cursed immortal, aren't the classic Draugr literally that? Intelligent, unkillable shadows of the warriors they used to be, but twisted into something evil?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 16, 2019, 11:40:10 am

Ye but they're not Finnish

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 16, 2019, 01:28:32 pm

Quote from: greatorder on January 16, 2019, 08:29:02 am

Quote

There's also evidence that they had more native iron smelting than you'd think, but that's down to local ore availability anyway.

It's more a paucity of weaponry, tools, and armour specifically for fighting other people. Spears are commonplace because they can be easily used to kill animals of various kinds. Axes and knives are commonplace too, because they're very useful tools and using them as a weapon isn't all that difficult.

Also as mentioned, decent swords and such require more skill. And yeah, bog iron's gonna be damn near everywhere that there are bogs.

Fair enough; I had meant that you can tune the availability of goethite through essentially invisible changes in bog microbiology, so you could justify everything from Dark Sun levels of metal rarity up through Bronze Orientation Day -- in contrast to what was once believed about pre-Roman Scandinavian ironworking -- and still be broadly consonant with the history of at least some part of Iron Age Finland. Going with weapon heads and finery hearths is a perfectly sensible take.

Incidentally, you could always fit bards into the setting as professional liars-to-bears.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 17, 2019, 06:34:30 am

"sir"
"Ma'am"
"Big guy"
"master"
"lordship"

etc.

Personal pronouns used for people would be adequate, as the intention is to be respectful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 17, 2019, 06:47:02 am

Well, the actual Finns called them meadpaws, but if you felt like a pun you could call them the Fur Folk.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 17, 2019, 07:36:07 am

Real Finnish euphemisms, particularly common ones in bold (very incomplete list, over 200 are known to history):

• Hän: the singular third-person pronoun. Spoken in whispers: "I saw Him at the field last night, heading for the neighbours' house."
• Jumalanvilja: God's Grain
• Kontio: loanword, or possibly derived from 'kontata', "to move low to the ground on four limbs"
• Kultaherra: Golden Lord
• Lehmänpelko: Cow's Fear
• Mesikämmen: Dew-palm
• Metsä: the Woods
• Metsän kuningas: King of the Woods
• Metsän kultaomena: Golden Apple of the Woods
• Metsän ukko: Old Man of the Woods
• Mörkö: Boogeyman
• Nalle: a human first name (worth noting: in modern Finnish, nalle refers to a teddy bear)
• Nokinen poika: Sooty Boy
• Otso: a human first name
• Vieras: Stranger
• Äijä: Dude

The 'real' name that's taboo is "karhu".

Other dangerous animals also had euphemisms, such as 'metsänkissa', "cat of the woods" for the lynx or 'paskasilmä', "shit-eye" for the wolf, but those weren't as widely used.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on January 17, 2019, 07:40:52 am

Most of Finnish bear names are a bit difficult to translate. Meadpaw is one, indeed. I’ve also come across honey-thief. You also had bears called things like Brother, Man, Him. The word for forest and its variants were used to refer to the bear, but I can see that being tricky to get across. There’s ’king of the forest’ and ’apple of the forest’ (no idea what that means). I think names that refer to its qualities like fur would work well, in general - fur, paws, etc.

English also has some alternative names for bears, like ’bruin’ and, uh... that might be it? I’m sure there’s more folk names for bears from English-speaking countries.

FAKE EDIT: aand IcyTea says all that and more while I’m writing. ’Karhu’ isn’t the taboo though I’m pretty sure, just one of the euphenisms that survived.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on January 17, 2019, 08:11:16 am

Fun fact: "bear" is itself a taboo term: descending like "bruin" from "brown", referring to them as "brown ones" was a way to avoid using the original term which descended from PIE's *rkto (reference Greek arktos/Latin ursus).  "Brownie" could thus work if you're trying to be cute.  Bee-wolf isn't Finnish, but it's another option thanks to Beowulf; their love for sweet honey is rather well-attested in various languages, such as the aforementioned honey-paws, honey pig, honey-eater...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 17, 2019, 08:38:13 am

Potential Swedish names:

• Hin(/Han) Store = The Great (More literally translated to "Him the Great")
• Hin(/Han) Brune = The Brown (also more literally "Him the Brown")
• Storfar = Greatfather
• Gulfot = Yellowfoot (or Yellowpaw)
• Brum = it feels like it is closely connected to "brun" (brown") by etymology, but as used it is the sound a bear makes, or the verb for making that sound.
• Mjödhuvud = Meadhead. Possibly more accurately "honey head" as the word for mead is derived from a word for honey.

Quote from: IcyTea31 on January 17, 2019, 07:36:07 am

• Nalle: a human first name (worth noting: in modern Finnish, nalle refers to a teddy bear)

no is our werd gib bac

Quote from: IcyTea31 on January 17, 2019, 07:36:07 am

Other dangerous animals also had euphemisms, such as 'metsänkissa', "cat of the woods" for the lynx or 'paskasilmä', "shit-eye" for the wolf, but those weren't as widely used.

Also, perhaps, "(the) Glutton" for wolverine, maybe? I've thought lingered on how Unreal Word calls it that.

In Sweden we also have a host of similar names for the wolf. I like "shit-eye" though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 17, 2019, 09:36:29 am

Quote from: scriver on January 17, 2019, 08:38:13 am

Also, perhaps, "(the) Glutton" for wolverine, maybe? I've thought lingered on how Unreal Word calls it that.

Ahma, 'glutton', is in fact the proper Finnish word for the wolverine, not a euphemism. It's so in several other languages as well, and even its scientific name: Gulo gulo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 17, 2019, 12:33:18 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on January 17, 2019, 07:40:52 am

FAKE EDIT: aand IcyTea says all that and more while I’m writing. ’Karhu’ isn’t the taboo though I’m pretty sure, just one of the euphenisms that survived.

Clearly there needs to be a secret society dedicated to recovering the True Name of Bear and using it to being about Bearmageddon, during which even the oldest bears will hear it and awaken, thereby collapsing the hills and mountains that have accreted over them in their long hibernation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on January 17, 2019, 04:11:25 pm

So, did ancient people just go around using fake names? They seemed to really hate using real names for other things

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 17, 2019, 04:44:57 pm

Names have power

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 17, 2019, 05:29:20 pm

It's rooted in a number of things, mostly related to magical thinking, specifically sympathetic magic.

To name a thing, is to understand, and control a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name

Sympathetic magic is based on the notion that "this, is like that", but makes the connection further-- "This *IS* that"-- and then goes off the deep end. "I can control THIS, so, logically, I ALSO control *THAT*."

By understanding a true name, you understand an underlying nature. that understanding is the same as controlling.  the name is not just a name, it *IS* that thing. By controlling the utterance of the name, they control the being it represents.

Total and complete hogwash, of course-- but that is the premise of operation.

It really is fascinating how many cultures have nearly identical conceptions of sympathetic magic in their history, and how similar they tend to be, despite cultural isolation.  It seems almost hardwired into humans to make these kinds of absurd jumps of cognition. Fascinating subject.

Speaking of--  Are you considering how you want to implement magic?  I've studied the subject of actual folklore and "clever folk" derived magical practices, because the similarities across cultural lines were so stark, I could not help but be intrigued.  At the very least, I could point you to some interesting material. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 17, 2019, 07:03:38 pm

In the specific case of bears in Finnish tradition and mythology, it was more rooted in fear, the idea that if you speak the name of the big scary predator, you might accidentally summon it. Less sympathetic magic, more "speak of the devil".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 17, 2019, 07:08:17 pm

"speak of the devil, and he appears" is indeed, rooted in magical practice.

It's kinda how invocation works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invocation

The difference is-- the magician does it on purpose, with a prepared command or means of controlling the invoked being.  The fool utters the invocation unprotected or unprepared.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 18, 2019, 12:38:46 am

Also, there's the ever-popular Latin Ursa and it's derivatives for bear names. Ursula, for example, means 'little bear.'

In one campaign, I gave my players a heads up that the town guard captain and her brother were both were-bears by naming her Ursa and him Bjorn. Since werebears are lawful good, every full moon they'd transform into bestial creatures and go out hunting bandits, toppling corrupt lords and building orphanages.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 18, 2019, 04:19:50 am

Quote from: Jimmy on January 18, 2019, 12:38:46 am

and building orphanages.

With their bear hands?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 18, 2019, 04:39:37 am

Hey, running a safehouse for the children of plagues and wars in the dark ages was a tooth and claw affair!  Who else do you expect to run one? Nuns? Phhhht. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 03:32:42 pm

Tarot cards are things that exist. Few games use them. I think you could probably count the number of games using a legit tarot deck on one hand even if it were missing two fingers.

So if you were going to experience a game making use of tarot cards, how would you like them to be used? Simply another funky randomizer? Special mechanics for each of the major arcana, maybe bonuses/penalties for the minor arcana based on what you're doing? Maybe an entire "solo" mechanic or some world-building mechanics based around a fake tarot spread? Something else entirely?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 18, 2019, 03:37:09 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 03:32:42 pm

Tarot cards are things that exist. Few games use them. I think you could probably count the number of games using a legit tarot deck on one hand even if it were missing two fingers.

So if you were going to experience a game making use of tarot cards, how would you like them to be used? Simply another funky randomizer? Special mechanics for each of the major arcana, maybe bonuses/penalties for the minor arcana based on what you're doing? Maybe an entire "solo" mechanic based around a fake tarot spread?

Something like Deadlands Classic's unified card mechanic, I think. It was never explicitly identified as such, but mad science and hucksterism's many flavors all ran on the same mechanic under the hood, using poker hands as the basic determinant of how good a card you got with special effects for jokers. Expanding that to cover all the non-numerical tarot cards would work well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 18, 2019, 03:51:20 pm

I mean, the Deck of Many Things is effectively a tarot deck...

There was an old lovecraftian RPG that dabbled quite a bit in cards, but if I remember correctly that was mostly just using wands/cups/swords/etc as character stats and difficulty ratings for challenges.

Game was actually quite intriguing, had a lot of potential to it... shame no one ever heard about it and the company went tits-up.


Dungeon Crawl has tarot-adjacent decks courtesy of Nemelex Xobeh, but that's really just another randomizer.

Victor Vran has skill and stat cards, but they're leveled, so I dunno... Would be interesting to see something like that, but where it would let you invert the cards for different effects. Don't think I've ever seen anything address that aspect of tarot, although I don't really know anything about the stuff and as such don't know if the inversion thing is "proper" tarot or just fortune teller hogwash.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 03:59:34 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on January 18, 2019, 03:37:09 pm

Something like Deadlands Classic's unified card mechanic, I think. It was never explicitly identified as such, but mad science and hucksterism's many flavors all ran on the same mechanic under the hood, using poker hands as the basic determinant of how good a card you got with special effects for jokers. Expanding that to cover all the non-numerical tarot cards would work well.

If this hypothetical game ends up having a magic system (who am I kidding; it's tarot, there's going to be a magic system), it'll definitely have a push-your-luck system similar to that. I know there are actual old card games using a tarot deck. Maybe there's something there that could be used.

Quote from: Kagus on January 18, 2019, 03:51:20 pm

I mean, the Deck of Many Things is effectively a tarot deck...

Kind of. 22 cards in the Deck (at least in PF; I'm assuming D&D is similar), 22 major arcana. But the guidelines I've read online seem to use a pared down tarot deck with half of the major arcana and the remainder filled out from the minor. Assuming you're not just using the "standard 52-card deck" rules.

Quote

There was an old lovecraftian RPG that dabbled quite a bit in cards, but if I remember correctly that was mostly just using wands/cups/swords/etc as character stats and difficulty ratings for challenges.

Game was actually quite intriguing, had a lot of potential to it... shame no one ever heard about it and the company went tits-up.

That sounds interesting. Do you happen to recall the name? I can probably find it myself eventually, if not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 18, 2019, 04:01:16 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 03:32:42 pm

I think you could probably count the number of games using a legit tarot deck on one hand even if it were missing two fingers.

Don't underestimate the plethora of obscurity. I imagine even if you limit it to published games, there's more than that rotting away on obscure corners of DriveThruRPG or collecting dust on forgotten shelves in European warehouses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 18, 2019, 04:55:34 pm

If I were to use tarot in a pen and paper scenario, I would make use of the tarot for their intended purpose; allegory for what is next in the scenario. (See also, "fool's Path" (http://www.learntarot.com/journey.htm), and the differences between the major and minor arcana. (https://www.autostraddle.com/fools-journey-the-language-of-numbers-in-the-minor-arcana-296267/))

(that is to say, I would create a scenario that uses this mechanic.  It would essentially be a very advanced "which way" book, that has different plot paths, based on what the cards say.  I would break it up into "chapters", each starting with a tarot reading. I think the only way to make it work, would be with a computer. After a few chapters, the story would have more branches than a tumbleweed. Whether or not the player characters stuck with the "fated" narrative or not, the events cast by the cards still happen one way or another, with very negative outcomes if they try to bail.)

The idea is to create a scenario book that can be replayed hundreds of times, and be subtly different each time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 18, 2019, 05:11:04 pm

Now I'm wondering if it would be cool to try doing a backwards tarot reading during char gen for PCs, use the cards to determine a major event from their past rather than their future so it can be used to flesh them out and link them to the world in a less structured way than most random background options are.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 06:26:00 pm

Quote from: wierd on January 18, 2019, 04:55:34 pm

I would make use of the tarot for their intended purpose; allegory for what is next in the scenario playing games

Cartomancy using tarot decks came like 3-4 hundred years later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 18, 2019, 06:28:18 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 03:59:34 pm

Quote

There was an old lovecraftian RPG that dabbled quite a bit in cards, but if I remember correctly that was mostly just using wands/cups/swords/etc as character stats and difficulty ratings for challenges.

Game was actually quite intriguing, had a lot of potential to it... shame no one ever heard about it and the company went tits-up.

That sounds interesting. Do you happen to recall the name? I can probably find it myself eventually, if not.

http://www.crypticcomet.com/games/OC/Occult_Chronicles.html

Took me a bit of fiddling around, my brain kept trying to remember the company as "Red Comet" rather than "Cryptic Comet"... Anyways, the demo might still be available/playable, but I don't think it's possible anymore to purchase a license for the complete product.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 06:53:21 pm

Cool, thanks. For some reason, I was thinking you meant a tabletop RPG. Anyway, I'll definitely check it out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 18, 2019, 06:54:54 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 06:53:21 pm

Cool, thanks. For some reason, I was thinking you meant a tabletop RPG. Anyway, I'll definitely check it out.

Yeah, my wording was rather ambiguous, but my brain hung up its coat for the weekend a few hours ago. I was lucky enough to get something that was even legible, let alone understandable.

EDIT: I didn't really play the thing long enough to get good at it (the turn limit is rather constraining), but I can tell you that certain class/background combinations can end up giving you multiple "bones" (dice) for a single card suit. If I remember correctly, this lets you roll both and take the more advantageous result for a given challenge, which makes having duplicate bones actually fairly useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 18, 2019, 10:23:02 pm

Pathfinder, aside from the Deck of Many Things which was imported from 3.5e, also includes a lore-specific deck of tarot style cards called harrow cards, though there's 54 cards in this deck. They're divided into the six stats (Strength, Dexterity, etc.) and have nine versions for each stat representing a specific alignment (Lawful Good, Neutral Good, etc.) which I think is a great way to divide up the cards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 19, 2019, 07:35:53 am

Quote from: Mephisto on January 18, 2019, 06:26:00 pm

Quote from: wierd on January 18, 2019, 04:55:34 pm

I would make use of the tarot for their intended purpose; allegory for what is next in the scenario playing games

Cartomancy using tarot decks came like 3-4 hundred years later.

Regular playing cards have a much older history of cartomancy IIRC. Tarot cards are less than 100-150~ years old. Playing cards are ancient.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 19, 2019, 08:49:13 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on January 19, 2019, 07:35:53 am

Tarot cards are less than 100-150~ years old.

Source? My research is saying that tarot has been around since the 1400s.

But I think we're far enough off the rpg rails now. I should probably head off to a game dev place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 19, 2019, 09:06:49 am

Tarot's current standard and usage as "magic" is that young. Tarot's history is congruent to playing cards, since that's what they originally were. Tarot appears during the 14th or 15th century (simultaneously to when the French standard that we know as the "common" deck today appears) as simply a five suited deck for playing particular card games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 19, 2019, 11:59:19 am

I believe Curse of Strahd for 5e had a Tarot reading that affected the plot of the adventure. I wish I could say more about that, but I was a player, and the session the tarot reading was in was the last session of that game, so I don't know how much of an impact it has.

I've seen a few RPGs where there's a mechanic where you have flashbacks or flash forwards to a scene and that changes the impact of a roll or the plot. Maybe you could use tarot cards with that mechanic somehow?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on January 19, 2019, 06:09:08 pm

Sort of like Blades in the Dark? Maybe. But I think that would be a bit on the tough end. It's maybe a bit easier to read into a character backstory and try to appropriately make a note of a few cards that tie into that thing. Tower, for instance, works really nicely for noble PCs who are about to have everything they know and love tossed into the gutter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2019, 09:46:15 am

Okay, so, hang on a sec... I'm reviewing some 5e Druid stuff, and realizing a couple things.

First of all, the text for Entangle indicates that the grasp-and-hold proc only occurs once, when the spell is cast. If you weren't in the initial casting zone, break free, or otherwise don't get bound by the first blast, you'll never get grasped by that casting of Entangle. Concentrating on the spell only keeps current bindings (those who failed their original strength save and every successive save on the turns after), and maintains the area as "difficult terrain". I feel sad.


But looking beyond that, I see that the description of Wild Shape doesn't seem to make any mention of restrictions on size or Multiattack. So... A level 2 Moon Druid could just shift into a brown bear and start slinging out a Multiattack of 1d8+4/2d6+4 every round. At level 2. Twice every short rest.

Throw in 2 levels of fighter, and you can action surge for two Multiattacks in one turn, once per short rest.


Seems a wee bit crazy, if'n you ask me... Certainly crazier than Tempest Cleric 2/Mountain Land Druid 5 and maxing out a lightning bolt every so often.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 21, 2019, 09:55:16 am

Yeah. Wildshape (specially for a moon druid) is wildly op at low levels, especially during, well, actual play. It's balanced against their internal idea of what your encounters rate and difficulty should be. But imo the basic assumption of fighting like 8 easy to normal encounters per day is super unrealistic and 5es biggest balance problem. I've found makes a lot of "per day" stuff in D&D a lot stronger, like spellcasters and wildshape, since they have I win buttons that are suppose to be wasted on like, two wolves at level 2 but end up taking out most of the threats that they'll face in a day with a single use.

Also fighter 2 is obviously pretty stronk for wildshape but fighter 2 is pretty stronk for basically every character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 21, 2019, 10:30:02 am

Wildshape isn't even a per day though. You get 2 per short rest. Its okay without the Moon Druid subclass, but with the Moon Druid, its insanely good. I'd never multiclass into Fighter as a Moon Druid though, or at least, not before Level 10.

Quote from: Kagus on January 21, 2019, 09:46:15 am

First of all, the text for Entangle indicates that the grasp-and-hold proc only occurs once, when the spell is cast. If you weren't in the initial casting zone, break free, or otherwise don't get bound by the first blast, you'll never get grasped by that casting of Entangle. Concentrating on the spell only keeps current bindings (those who failed their original strength save and every successive save on the turns after), and maintains the area as "difficult terrain". I feel sad.

Entangle is still damn good on the first casting. Most of the time you cast it, one turn is enough.

Quote from: Kagus on January 21, 2019, 09:46:15 am

But looking beyond that, I see that the description of Wild Shape doesn't seem to make any mention of restrictions on size or Multiattack. So... A level 2 Moon Druid could just shift into a brown bear and start slinging out a Multiattack of 1d8+4/2d6+4 every round. At level 2. Twice every short rest.

Throw in 2 levels of fighter, and you can action surge for two Multiattacks in one turn, once per short rest.


Seems a wee bit crazy, if'n you ask me... Certainly crazier than Tempest Cleric 2/Mountain Land Druid 5 and maxing out a lightning bolt every so often.

Brown bear has great damage, but if your DM is worth their salt, opponents will prioritize you and it doesn't really have the stats to tank hits. If you're playing with a melee character Dire Wolf is better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 21, 2019, 10:34:38 am

Quote from: Persus13 on January 21, 2019, 10:30:02 am

Wildshape isn't even a per day though. You get 2 per short rest. Its okay without the Moon Druid subclass, but with the Moon Druid, its insanely good. I'd never multiclass into Fighter as a Moon Druid though, or at least, not before Level 10.

Hah, yeah, good point. I should have said "limited use" abilities I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 21, 2019, 10:53:48 am

Since dungeons weren't prominent in my last 5e game, I'd just go (non-Moon) druid with a bard dip. Ten rounds of 3d10 minimum damage for the cost of one 3rd or higher slot. And bard so you can viciously mock your enemies with your near-useless bonus action. Who knows, maybe the 10d10 didn't kill the dude but the 4d4 did.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 21, 2019, 11:20:02 am

How do you use Vicious Mockery as a bonus action?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 21, 2019, 11:41:59 am

My bad. It's been a while since my game ended. Must have been a different cantrip - I seem to recall one being a bonus action.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2019, 11:48:39 am

Yeah, VM is a full action, at least according to the official rules. Maybe you've been playing a homebrew for so long it's become ingrained?

I mean, you can cast shillelagh as a bonus action, but druids are the only ones who get that anyways...

Healing Word is bonus action, but it burns a spell slot. Very useful though, and druids get it naturally.

Plenty of concentration spells that make use of bonus actions, and without requiring a second spellcasting stat in order to use. Heck, you could dip Warlock and grab Hex, along with a once-per-short-rest spell slot you can use for it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 21, 2019, 12:34:26 pm

The Cutting Words of a Lore Bard are a bonus action and do much of the same thing as Vicious Mockery, perhaps that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2019, 01:53:42 pm

Actually they use a reaction, don't they?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on January 21, 2019, 02:09:22 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 21, 2019, 01:53:42 pm

Actually they use a reaction, don't they?

Yes, yes it does.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 24, 2019, 09:26:02 am

Some of you are probably already aware. For those who aren't:

If you had ever wanted to RP a standard human from the UK's Regency era, have I got a game for you. (https://storybrewersroleplaying.com/good-society/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on January 24, 2019, 09:44:00 am

I was just reading about that earlier. Spooky. It seems like it could be fun, but the chances of getting my regular group excited about Austen-esque society life shenanigans are somewhere around non-existent. I do enjoy getting my upper-class well-mannered indirect politeness fu on. If only I’d been born an idle rich Regency gentleperson destined to perish tragically from consumption, alas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on January 24, 2019, 02:07:54 pm

I was just reading a little bit about the Nocebo Effect on TV Tropes, and I have to say, it sounds like quite the thing for a Deception skilled rogue/bard to do.
"The first symptoms of the poison is horrible nausea, which should be starting soon." *Deception roll*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 24, 2019, 02:35:01 pm

My favourite book in the whole wide world of books isn't Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel, but it's probably second. It would fit that pretty much, I think (although it is Napoleonic). It's pretty much written as a pastiche and love letter of 19th century romantic books. But with magics!

No gentleman magician would ever stoop to practical magic, however. A gentleman only studies the theory of magic!

(https://www.storemypic.com/images/2016/10/25/susanna-clarke-can-a-magician-kill-a-man-by-quote-on-storemypic-d61ea.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/6Wf9CW4.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 24, 2019, 03:00:02 pm

Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel, the BBC tv series adaption of the book (https://youtu.be/WUtDkfHlzgs?t=90). That's Jonathan Strange there. Don't be confused by how they keep shouting Merlin at him, that's just his "army nickname" so to speak.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 24, 2019, 03:29:36 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on January 24, 2019, 02:07:54 pm

I was just reading a little bit about the Nocebo Effect on TV Tropes, and I have to say, it sounds like quite the thing for a Deception skilled rogue/bard to do.
"The first symptoms of the poison is horrible nausea, which should be starting soon." *Deception roll*

For as much as I love this, I wasn't aware that diplomancers needed a buff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 24, 2019, 03:32:45 pm

Here's a somewhat particular question for you all:

Some of my colleagues have approached me about running an intro Pathfinder module to pass the time during an upcoming work excursion. Of the two who have already definitely indicated their interest, one has previously played a bit of D&D and the other has vague memories of hearing about it.

We've got nine hours of transit time to kill each way, so I wouldn't mind something intended to last more than a session, and as both of them are keen Game of Thrones fans I had thought of running Crownfall. How bad an idea is that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 24, 2019, 03:40:56 pm

So, the DnD campaign I've been gearing up for since autumn probably isn't gonna happen. See, Finnish Bartender Girl introduced me to the GM, who was also then-recently her new boyfriend. They'd met at one of his games, and 'twas love at first sight. So he was gonna run a second campaign also including Finnish Bartender, while still running the first campaign with Finnish Bartender, and tying the two campaigns in with each other.


'Cept now they've broken up. Welp.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on January 24, 2019, 03:47:06 pm

This is mostly joking, since I actually have zero experience with this happening, but I've read enough stories about RPGs going wrong because of romance between players or GMs that I suspect this is a common issue.

It's usually people complaining about creepy stuff the GM does to or for their significant other's character though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 24, 2019, 05:45:39 pm

Anything involving people is bound to have significant issues.


In other news, Humble is hosting a books bundle of Numenéra rulebooks (https://www.humblebundle.com/books/numenera-monte-cook-books?hmb_source=receipt_page&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=mosaic_section_1_layout_index_2_layout_type_threes_tile_index_1), where you can get "$260 value!" of corebooks and expansions for $15, or just the basics for $1.

...the fuck even is Numenéra though? There's an expansion rulebook about sex, so I'm a little worried.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on January 24, 2019, 06:09:22 pm

Apparently, it's a sort of cross between 5E D&D and FATE (not FATAL, that's something completely different) where supposedly all the dice rolling is done by players. You roll d20s to try and beat various challenge ratings, can get training in various areas to reduce the difficulty of said challenges, and can burn your "HP" to gain further boosts at the cost of leaving yourself vulnerable. The GM sets the difficulty of various tasks; provides narrative; and can intercede in rolls to make players automatically fail, in exchange for giving the players bonus EXP. Notably, players can spend EXP in order to ignore the intercession.

Oh and it apparently takes place on Earth something like a billion years in the future.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 24, 2019, 07:36:36 pm

MCG is what I suppose you could call a progressive company. As the name implies, Monte Cook, of D&D 3.5's Ptolus, Arcana [Unearthed|Evolved] and Book of Vile Darkness fame is involved. Another big name is Shanna Germain, who writes a pretty good Numenera book series but got her start in erotic novels before writing No Thank You, Evil, MCG's RPG for children.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 24, 2019, 09:13:05 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on January 24, 2019, 03:32:45 pm

Here's a somewhat particular question for you all:

Some of my colleagues have approached me about running an intro Pathfinder module to pass the time during an upcoming work excursion. Of the two who have already definitely indicated their interest, one has previously played a bit of D&D and the other has vague memories of hearing about it.

We've got nine hours of transit time to kill each way, so I wouldn't mind something intended to last more than a session, and as both of them are keen Game of Thrones fans I had thought of running Crownfall. How bad an idea is that?

So as a disclaimer, I haven't run or played Crownfall, but here's my two copper pieces on the matter.

First, the main author of the scenario is Thurston 'Thursty' Hillman, who's awesome. I've run many of his other written scenarios, specifically the Pathfinder Society modules which are made for organized play, and they're always top notch. Thursty has a solid grasp of melding game mechanics with good storytelling, and I've never been disappointed with any of his published works.

Crownfall is almost universally praised for its story arc and gameplay. The premise is a good one, with royal intrigue, although if you're not a huge fan of Golarion lore you might not get as much out of the scenario.

However, if you only have two nine hour sessions, I don't know how far you'll get through it, especially if you're building characters at the table instead of prior to the game. Also, if you're spending time explaining rules to new players, that'll slow down the game too. Also, you mentioned you're in transit, so I don't know how well you can play without a tabletop to use for minis and dice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 24, 2019, 11:01:22 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 24, 2019, 09:13:05 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on January 24, 2019, 03:32:45 pm

-snip-

So as a disclaimer, I haven't run or played Crownfall, but here's my two copper pieces on the matter.

First, the main author of the scenario is Thurston 'Thursty' Hillman, who's awesome. I've run many of his other written scenarios, specifically the Pathfinder Society modules which are made for organized play, and they're always top notch. Thursty has a solid grasp of melding game mechanics with good storytelling, and I've never been disappointed with any of his published works.

Crownfall is almost universally praised for its story arc and gameplay. The premise is a good one, with royal intrigue, although if you're not a huge fan of Golarion lore you might not get as much out of the scenario.

However, if you only have two nine hour sessions, I don't know how far you'll get through it, especially if you're building characters at the table instead of prior to the game. Also, if you're spending time explaining rules to new players, that'll slow down the game too. Also, you mentioned you're in transit, so I don't know how well you can play without a tabletop to use for minis and dice.

As for the logistics, we'll have access to the equivalent of a card table. I was also thinking of partly pregenerating a set of characters anyway.

I think I can pull this off now. Thanks!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 27, 2019, 12:01:28 pm

So after some very light skimming of user responses, it looks like Numenera is a very narrative-heavy system with very little combat focus and and a combat system that reflects that. Also very reliant on the GM's leadership and spontaneous creativity.

"One interesting aspect of skills is that the game doesn't really have a list of them. Instead, it is up to the player to create what skills his character knows, and the GM to decide if they are too generic."

Gah. There are plenty of folks out there who think stuff like this is awesome, but I'm very much not one of them. I like concrete rules, and defined limits for playing around in.

"the GM can at any time intrude the flow of the story to determine something has happened (that is, an intrusion). When he does so, however, he gives the most obviously affected character 1 experience point (XP) and another to another character chosen by the first player (this choice can be based on any criteria the player wants)."

But, of course, there's no definition of what is an Intrusion versus what simply is, as per GM fiat. It's just up to the GM to decide what is and isn't worth playing the XP game for, which is particularly noteworthy because this is the primary way PCs get XP. And then the players also determine the handing out of XP because... Well, because of reasons, surely.

Well... It might be the primary way of gaining XP. The other way is by making "discoveries", which are also determined by the GM when considering what is and isn't a discovery.

And then there are the cyphers, and I'm not really sure what to think about them.



I dunno. I can apparently get the core books for $1 (it's a little unclear on the Humble page as to which books are rulebooks, and which books are adventures or "philosophical supplements"), but... Eh?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 27, 2019, 12:09:00 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 27, 2019, 12:01:28 pm

I dunno. I can apparently get the core books for $1 (it's a little unclear on the Humble page as to which books are rulebooks, and which books are adventures or "philosophical supplements"), but... Eh?

I'd skip it. Numenera was still riding the PbtA high in which anything with rules, let alone numbers, was a dirty trad game that will get in the way of deeply fulfilling and emotional bleedplay and is therefore badwrongfun. IWNAY, IWNAY, Jenna Moran fhtag'n.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 27, 2019, 03:32:42 pm

Numenera may be a bit light in the rules department, but emotional play? No. I dislike Jenna and her Morans as much as the next person who is capable of describing a game without using the same four buzzwords again and again but, as far as Cypher games go, it's patently false.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on January 27, 2019, 04:47:57 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 27, 2019, 03:32:42 pm

Numenera may be a bit light in the rules department, but emotional play? No. I dislike Jenna and her Morans as much as the next person who is capable of describing a game without using the same four buzzwords again and again but, as far as Cypher games go, it's patently false.

My apologies; I was unclear. It's not an emotional game by any stretch, but it was written in 2012-2013 when the majority of indie games were trying to capitalize on their popularity, and it ticks a lot of the boxes: rules-light, xp-as-bennies-as-complications-as-roll-bonuses (like everyone ripped off of FATE), "concept-driven" Mad Libs character creation, sex rules, and that weird thing where players give each other XP. It's another attempt at a traditional game for Moran cultists, and while some of them still sing its praises as a way for silly boys to have their magical toys and yet get used to real games, I haven't encountered many people from either camp who haven't found a better way to do what they're trying to make it do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 27, 2019, 08:48:23 pm

The stats of a bear with the abilities of a big cat should do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 27, 2019, 09:00:24 pm

Quote from: scriver on January 27, 2019, 08:48:23 pm

The stats of a bear with the abilities of a big cat should do.

And fast healing (arbitrary amount)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 27, 2019, 09:03:39 pm

Wolverines are much much smaller then bears, even a small black bear is going to be an order of magnitude larger. 3.5 calls them medium animals but tbh I don't see how you'd justify anything bigger then small.

I'd upgrade a badger, a couple more hp, upscale the damage from 1 to something like 1d4 and maybe +1 or +2, and maybe give them a rage ability if you want, takes damage and gets +4 strength and con?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: ShinQuickMan on January 27, 2019, 09:10:36 pm

From a look, giant badgers would represent wolverines just fine. They're a match for cougars and individual wolves, which more or less follows real-life expectations for wolverines.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 27, 2019, 09:30:15 pm

... A wolverine or Wolverine?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 28, 2019, 03:44:53 am

In general, if you want to stat a critter, the first step is to see if you can use the stats of another thing, maybe modifying them a little. I remember a published module where a sheep's stats were just copy-pasted from a horse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 28, 2019, 05:54:24 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 27, 2019, 09:03:39 pm

Wolverines are much much smaller then bears, even a small black bear is going to be an order of magnitude larger.

It's not a matter of size, it's a matter of attitudd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 01, 2019, 07:35:58 am

Doubkepost because it's been long enough: I happened to mention the story of the word for bear being taboo and my father lended me his book "Mammals in Swedish Folkly Tradition" which has super interesting info on a lot of things (did you know for example that people used to keep weasels as pest-hunters, similar to cats? Well, at least attempted to - attempts to permanently domesticise them failed, obviously, but having a weasel on a farm was considered very lucky and a good boob) and here is some more names for bear I found in it:

Björnkarl: "Bear Man", or "Brown Man" since that's what bear means in turn. "Karl" also means something more like "(free) man" rather than just "man", insinuating that it has no master. It's female equivalent is "björnkäring".

Fnasken/Fnaskus/Nasken/Naskus: "the snacker"/"the muncher"

Bjässe: Formed from björn, synonymous with something very big in modern Swedish

Billing: Means "Twin", used for bear cubs (they often have litters of two)

Billingmor: "Twinmother", used for bear mummies

Björntass/Björntafs: "Bearpaw" or "Brownpaw", used for small/adolescent bears ("Its not a big bear, just a small bearpaw")

Barfot, Skolös, Hallös: "Barefoot", "Shoeless", "Hall-less", and similar names. Often used in definite or "referring" forms ("the Barefoot" or "Old Shoeless") or with a name ("Barefoot Tom")

Ofreden: literally "the Un-Peace". Used for bears who savaged or killed animals or people. "Ravager" or similar might be closer to what it means.

Gullfot: "Goldpaw". Just one letter from the "Gulfot" ("Yellowpaw") I mentioned in the previous post, might be the same. Possibly a reference to eating honey?

Lots of names referring to elders: Godfar ("Goodfather"), Skogsfar ("Forest-/Woodfather"), Storfar ("Greatfather"), Gammeln ("The Old"/"the Elder"), Gubben (an old man, closest equivalent is probably "Gabber", like how Samwise Gamgi refers to his old man in LotR), Stor-gubben ("Great Gabber")

Some myths that was mentioned was the belief that the bear slept on one side half the winter, then turned over in her aleep in the middle of winter and slept on that side for the second half. So one had to be careful around a certain day or time (specifics vary from region to region) and not perform noisy chores or work like chopping wood or threshing, or you could disturb the bear in her sleep and then she'd seek revenge against you, your animals, or household in summertime.

They also preferred to bury people alive instead of killing them, if they had time - and particularly preyed on pregnant women and even more particularly on women pregnant with boys.

Friendly or pleased trolls could grant you a "trollbjörn" ("troll bear", but I hardly have to translate that I think - keep in mind though that "troll" is synonymous with magic or doing magic, so it also means "magic bear") to watch over and protect your farm and household. They were also called "giftbears".

Nefarious Sami witchmen (often the culprits in old Swedish tales from the border regions between the nations) would turn into bears and beastly were-bears during the night and eat your livestock if you angered them.

Bear gall was considered very a very potent curative. Helped against acidious stomachs, instilled appetite, tooth ache, birth pains, frost burns, kidney ails, and inflammation if the lung (I can't remember your fancy latin word for it right now). The book mentions that in the 18th century it was mixed with brännvin (brandy, "burn-wine", you know, booze) but no mention of how it was prepared before distillated booze was invented.

Bear blood was also considered a healing aid, particularly against epilepsy.  Bear fat was used as salves and balms "for a great deal of ailments" but no mention of specifics I'm that case.

Super interesting book! I highly recommend it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 01, 2019, 09:23:57 am

I’m glad to hear that the Swedes knew to respect the king of the woods as well. The bit about the Sami being powerful and scary witches is true to Finnish folklore as well. South of Finland, it’s in turn the Finns who have a reputation for being witchy folk. It appears to be a common pattern.

I guess once you hit the Arctic you no longer have anyone north of you to call witches. You could work this into a campaign world as magic being more present and more powerful the norther you go - maybe the Pole is a magical vortex or such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 09:31:00 am

Would make sense with the lights and whatnot.

And then, the final boss, the archmage above all archmagi located at the northernmost focus of arcane power... Santa.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 01, 2019, 10:04:54 am

Arctic circle = Circle of Bears (Arctos) = Realm of the Bears

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 10:08:23 am

And Santa is definitely not a twink, so, logically...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 01, 2019, 10:56:03 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 10:08:23 am

And Santa is definitely not a twink, so, logically...

[citation needed]

I'm sure it gets lonely up there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 01, 2019, 11:28:23 am

That is nowhere near what that means. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 01, 2019, 11:37:33 am

I'm not as up on my LGBTQXYZ+ terms as I should be. Whoops. I hang my head in shame.

On the other hand, how do you know that the popular image of Santa is accurate?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 11:43:07 am

I have been reading a touch of FATAL and Friends (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/), most notably checking up on 13th Age to see if maybe I was just biased about something the first time I was introduced to the system, and that maybe I was being unreasonable.

Nope. Still looks absolutely abhorrent to me. Time to calm my mind by reading this lovely review of the "It's Not All About Yiffing" (It Is Definitely All About Yiffing) Fursona supplemental to Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 01, 2019, 11:43:45 am

Quote from: Mephisto on February 01, 2019, 11:37:33 am

I'm not as up on my LGBTQXYZ+ terms as I should be. Whoops. I hang my head in shame.

On the other hand, how do you know that the popular image of Santa is accurate?

LGBT is fine.

Also, the most popular image of Santa might be wrong, but for all intents and purposes it’s the only “real” one, so... Nobody knows it isn’t!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on February 01, 2019, 12:04:26 pm

Oh come on, the ancient slavic one has some style.  You GOTTA dig that blue coat instead of that red one.  So much classier.  And his grand-daughter helps too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz

Oh, did I mention he's a demonic ice wizard? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 01, 2019, 12:55:48 pm

Getting just a bit off topic.

I've been drawing up a campaign for a few years that features the prophetic return of an ancient lich who once terrorized the world by using his dark magic to deliver toys to children each year on a particular night.  Someday I'm going to run it during November and December to exemplify just how much of a grinch I really am.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on February 01, 2019, 01:05:10 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 11:43:07 am

I have been reading a touch of FATAL and Friends (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/), most notably checking up on 13th Age to see if maybe I was just biased about something the first time I was introduced to the system, and that maybe I was being unreasonable.

Nope. Still looks absolutely abhorrent to me. Time to calm my mind by reading this lovely review of the "It's Not All About Yiffing" (It Is Definitely All About Yiffing) Fursona supplemental to Pathfinder.

Let me play my Kitsune in peace  >:(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 06:47:32 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on February 01, 2019, 01:05:10 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 11:43:07 am

I have been reading a touch of FATAL and Friends (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/), most notably checking up on 13th Age to see if maybe I was just biased about something the first time I was introduced to the system, and that maybe I was being unreasonable.

Nope. Still looks absolutely abhorrent to me. Time to calm my mind by reading this lovely review of the "It's Not All About Yiffing" (It Is Definitely All About Yiffing) Fursona supplemental to Pathfinder.

Let me play my Kitsune in peace  >:(

"The Earthborn template is designed to allow self insertion characters into the campaign, and will easily allow a player to build their fursona into a mostly balanced player character... one that still has the unique advantage of the player's 21st century mindset."

Still nausea-inducing, but at least it's not one of the many features designed around getting vored. And despite what it says, it's not actually balanced in the slightest.


Aaanyways, I read a bit about Legend of the Five Rings. Seems fun. Seems advanced though, and you'd dang well better put some thought into character background and researching who/what you're gonna be playing.

Shame there's no entry about Gamma World... would've liked to know more about it than "character generation is pretty great".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 01, 2019, 07:24:27 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 01, 2019, 06:47:32 pm

Shame there's no entry about Gamma World... would've liked to know more about it than "character generation is pretty great".

Well, if you're willing to settle for Gamma World crossed with Basic D&D, there's always Mutant Future (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/ratpick/mutant-future-revised-edition/).

Speaking of which, I really want to run a game of Mutant Future using a map I generated from this site (https://wizardawn.and-mag.com/tool_world.php), and The Metamorphica (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/115703/The-Metamorphica-Classic-Edition) for mutations.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 01, 2019, 07:54:33 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on February 01, 2019, 12:55:48 pm

Getting just a bit off topic.

I've been drawing up a campaign for a few years that features the prophetic return of an ancient lich who once terrorized the world by using his dark magic to deliver toys to children each year on a particular night.  Someday I'm going to run it during November and December to exemplify just how much of a grinch I really am.

I've had similar thoughts of running a short campaign about rescuing enslaved elves who are being forced to work in sweatshops manufacturing materials for a giant dwarf known as The Toymaker.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on February 01, 2019, 08:11:14 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 01, 2019, 07:54:33 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on February 01, 2019, 12:55:48 pm

Getting just a bit off topic.

I've been drawing up a campaign for a few years that features the prophetic return of an ancient lich who once terrorized the world by using his dark magic to deliver toys to children each year on a particular night.  Someday I'm going to run it during November and December to exemplify just how much of a grinch I really am.

I've had similar thoughts of running a short campaign about rescuing enslaved elves who are being forced to work in sweatshops manufacturing materials for a giant dwarf known as The Toymaker.

I would consider it bonus points if the toys themselves magically derive power from said elven suffering, and channel it into a capricious enchanted quality. (For good boys and girls, the toys are boons and blessings, but for bad boys and girls, they are basically chucky.  SAME EXACT ENCHANTMENT. Different outcome based on recipient alignment. Unlike a certain red-clad hick, this guy would give toys to *ALL* children each year.  But you REALLY REALLY want to be a NICE child. Really.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 01, 2019, 10:34:57 pm

One holiday year at the LGS I overheard a pathfinder group fighting ol Krampus.

(jury is out on wether he had those damn quad lasers...)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: highmax28 on February 02, 2019, 07:06:50 pm

One of my players wants to make a goblin hoarder that’s a blacksmith who just welds pots and pans to himself whenever he finds more

God help me...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 02, 2019, 07:15:38 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 02, 2019, 07:06:50 pm

One of my players wants to make a goblin hoarder that’s a blacksmith who just welds pots and pans to himself whenever he finds more

God help me...

Gobbomari DnDamacy?


Anyways, there's a FATAL and Friends writeup about Numenera! It's even worse than the first Numenera review I read!

I do find it interesting when a system has aspects that a reviewer actually really likes, and I still think it sounds like an awful idea. So far there's been one such instance in Numenera, everything else is agreed upon as being horrible ("Your background gives you a mechanical advantage to doing something that is not mechanically allowed").

Almost at the end of chargen! So far we've had a few pages of "This is blatantly overpowered", "This literally does not work", or "This works, and it works by shooting yourself in the foot" as character choices, along with a couple jabs at the XP/Intrusion system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 02, 2019, 07:49:39 pm

The revised core books are supposed to fix some of the Numenera oddities. I've been looking for something to read. Maybe that should go to the top of the pile.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 02, 2019, 08:02:03 pm

Quote from: highmax28 on February 02, 2019, 07:06:50 pm

One of my players wants to make a goblin hoarder that’s a blacksmith who just welds pots and pans to himself whenever he finds more

God help me...

God has answered by gifting you the heat metal spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 02, 2019, 08:08:11 pm

Shocking Grasp (https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Shocking_Grasp) too, for low levels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on February 02, 2019, 09:41:13 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 02, 2019, 07:15:38 pm

Anyways, there's a FATAL and Friends writeup about Numenera! It's even worse than the first Numenera review I read!

I was kinda interested in this review, given that I've played Numenera a little bit, and was interested to see the perspective of someone going in determined to hate it, as opposed to me, who, since I knew I'd be playing it anyway, went in determined to try to like it a bit at least but found myself not liking a lot of it. This post is kinda turned into my review of this guys Numenera review, idk if it was worth it, but here.

Spoiler: My review of this review, which I made because I was bored, but it's not super interesting so I spoiled it to not waste anyones time in scrolling past it. (click to show/hide)

The game does suffer from the absolutely stupid as hell use of made of words. We don't need a new word for dirt just because technically speaking, the dirt isn't what we have as dirt now. Presumably we're not speaking English anyway and it's close enough.

I agree the exp system is bad, to be fair to Numenera I've literally never seen a exp system in an rpg that works, to be fair to this author, Numeneras exp system is especially bad.

On the pool system. I actually think it's fine. Your hp is also your ability to do things particularly well, you injure/exhaust yourself to do particularly well, it's fine and probably the only part of the system that's interesting. The way edges work certain characters injure themselves less/not at all for great efforts in certain areas, thus specialization more or less. It's what allows your strong character to be strong outside of the specific abilities they have and your smart character to be smart ect, and I think it's fine. The only real point towards not liking it the author brings up is that there's a lack of challenges having to do with speed and int, which is sorta true, but I'd say there's sorta a lack of challenges defined for the gm at all, it's up to them to make what the players will have to overcome, and that means it's up to them to home make a bunch of challenges for the different stats. The game doesn't have a lot of mechanical depth anyway, a list of traps and stuff would be pretty redundant given it'd mostly just be a few similar numbers and maybe an effect.

So yeah, disagree on the pool system.

On armor: "jocks" already start with some proficiency in armor. So, yeah. And in general Seems like a weird complaint that you can buy armor proficiency. Disagree that the armor proficiency is an issue.

On skills: the game is basically pointing out that it doesn't have an exhaustive skill list and you should work with your gm to come up with appropriate stuff. It's... Fine. I'd rather perhaps HAVE an exhaustive skill list, but if you don't want to do that for your game the way it's done is fine.

The game doesn't lie at all about what “I am an adjective noun who verbs.” means, it says it, and then goes on to explain it immediately. The author of this review complaining about it is completely ignoring the context of it to complain about it not having context. Pretty classic sign of a review that was written with an objective already in mind instead of actually trying to review a thing (just like the review I'm writing here!)

Backgrounds are weird and kinda pointless, I agree with the author there.

On weapons not being correctly divided, that's half true, they are divided into light medium and heavy, and ranged and not ranged (by the ranged tag) but not bashing or bladed. So, I can see that being an issue with really esoteric weapons, but generally not.

On glaves being boring: This is very true. I think probably what our author is about to realize is that most of the actual abilities you get (outside of a few from the Nanos) is that all the abilities you get are somewhat uninspiring or at least focused on problem solving in the main area of that class, for glaves that being combat, and you don't really get fluff abilities. Which, imo, is fine.

It's also worth noting that your Noun is only like, 40% of your character from a mechanical perspective anyway. The adjective and verb have a bit more fluffy abilities, sometimes.

On nanos I agree with the author that nanos power level is very inconsistent. I don't think the Usurp Cypher ability is as op as he makes it out to be, it's only a single use ability after all, basically allowing you to make permanent a single Cypher that you own as your capstone ability. Very good? Yes? Op? With the right Cypher for sure, it's probably even broken with the most powerful ones. But you still need to own it... so, yeah.

Jacks don't get much mention other then lack of unique abilitys, which is fair.

On the conclusion for the nouns: I agree wizards supremacy is sorta true. Nanos get more and more varied options then just dealing damage, but to be fair to glaves, glaves are really good at dealing damage. It's sorta the classic thing that most rpgs have, but at least it's not too bad here. Also it's important to note that Verbs also give options. Like, often very interesting ones. Which really (really really) helps Glaves in the "be interesting to play department.

On not getting exp for combat, so why is there a combat class: Because even if you don't get exp for it, combat still happens. Duh. It's the nature of an adventure that sometimes you need to kill things or deal with things that are trying to kill you. I don't think it's bad that glaves are very combat focused. They might be over focused, but having a combat specialist isn't a bad thing. (So long as your gm doesn't just totally dispense with combat)

On even the good classes being too combat focused (or crappy as the header says.) this is true. The games basically made a lite combat system and very little else. Once again Verbs help, but not enough. Outside of combat the game is very freeform. I dunno if I think it's as bad as the author thinks it is, but it can be annoying for sure.

The next two points I mostly agree with. I mean, you don't need t numenera focused abilities to deal with numenera, but it'd be nice if you got at least some. And the class aren't overall that interesting (as I mentioned before)

On adjectives: They aren't the most interesting things around (that'd be verbs) but they give a good baseline for what the character is like. The author doesn't really make the point but his complaints are focused around the inabilities they give, which would be nice if they could perhaps be picked separately. There's more interesting adjectives elsewhere as well, splat books and stuff add them and they are better there (such as races)

Next up is the reviewers take on verbs, which he describes as "These are easily the least terrible they get in the book, but most of them are still pretty bad." Verbs are easily the best part of numenera, and honestly the only thing in the game that marks it as different from the billion other rules lite rpgs out there, but it does it very very well. It's a pretty cool system. It's also very long and this isn't a review of the game but a review of the review, so I'm going to skip over this and mostly say that the reviewer seems to not like connections, which I also don't like, so fair enough. Also some issues with balance, which, also fair enough. Although I don't think it's too bad.

Also I think it's funny to note the reviewer whines about everything using init, whereas previously he was whining about everything hitting strength. Almost as if one was pseudo mana and one was pseudo health. Hummmmmm...

On equipment: Numenera doesn't have very interesting (one way or another) equipment rules and so this review doesn't have a very interesting (one way or another) equipment review section other then a very fair riff on the setting as a whole not being nearly as interesting as it's premise promises and an unfair take on armor. Wow, armor gives penalties when you're untrained. I don't understand why that's such a shocking or controversial thing to this reviewer, but it seems to be.

Onto rules: A fair criticism of the worst interpretation of a vaguely worded rule/suggestion. The reviewer misunderstands the difference between most people and trained people for the third time this review. The critique of assets and how +1 +2 and then rolling over into +0 in some cases work is a pretty minor but fair critique.

Actually good advice on how to approach the structure of retries in a narrative game from the reviewer. That said I'm not sure if you really want this game to be as narrative as the reviewer does. ymmv.

I don't really see the issue with the initatial cost rules.

Overall though, the rules tend to be a bit messy, which I totally agree with the reviewer that the intentions behind them should have been looked at a bit closer.

And that's where the review ends (for now I guess? It says to be continued, maybe I found an outdated version of it). Fair enough though because my suppers almost done cooking. In the end I think I mostly agree with the reviewer, although his propensity to nitpick leads him astray sometimes, also I like the verb system, which he seems to not even though he calls it the best part of the game, he still seems to think it's bad. Probably our biggest disagreement. Oh well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 02, 2019, 11:14:58 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 02, 2019, 09:41:13 pm

Presumably we're not speaking English anyway and it's close enough.

They might be. Given you're playing as humans, something had to have happened to allow humans to survive through the eight prior worlds. Nothing's in the canon saying how this happens but there are many suggestions from fans - stasis pods, time travel, dimensional shenanigans, <insert technobabble cosmic reset switch here>. We know humans weren't "active" the whole time because one of the books calls out that humans weren't there for one of the "worlds."

---

Pathfinder session finally ended. Half-orc rogue nearly soloed two separate gelatinous oozes. Hearing the system mastery dude's rage was sweet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 03, 2019, 12:58:22 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 02, 2019, 09:41:13 pm

The author of this review complaining about it is completely ignoring the context of it to complain about it not having context. Pretty classic sign of a review that was written with an objective already in mind instead of actually trying to review a thing (just like the review I'm writing here!)

That reminds me of an RPG.NET review (https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15458.phtml) a guy did of the original version of Stars Without Number where he was so focused on how it's not exactly like Traveller that he somehow completely missed the starship rules (when people pointed this out in the forum comments, he somewhat backtracked by saying there were no prebuilt starships, which people pointed out he was also wrong about).


But enough negativity. I found a review on FATAL & Friends for a game called Spellbound Kingdoms (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/nifara/spellbound-kingdoms/) that made me really interested in it. I mean, I was already kind of interested in it every since I downloaded the free combat primer (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/62332/Spellbound-Kingdoms-Combat-Primer?manufacturers_id=2727) when I first came across it on DriveThruRPG. But I didn't know if the rest of the game would be as good as the combat system.

So, basically, how the combat system works, is that you fight with different fighting styles, which each require you to use certain types of weapons or weapon configurations to work, and you use different maneuvers, which you switch between by moving up or down or sideways on the style sheet, unless a maneuver you or an opponent does rebalances you, in which case you go back to a starting maneuver. Also, there are powerful abilities that you have to work your way up to to pull off. And there's even monster-specific combat styles.

But this review also explains how this is a game where characters are empowered by what they care about, to the point that you can temporarily weaken someone by killing off their spouse, though, if you don't also kill them off soon after, they may just replace their old Inspiration to be revenge against you. Also, it has proper social combat rules that involve more than just rolling persuasion/diplomacy at people; it actually sounds about as strategic as regular combat.

Also, I think in a previous review I saw of the game it said something like magic users interfere with each other, which made me think they nullify each other's power, which is actually almost exactly the opposite of what happens. It turns out that, the more magic users you have in an area, the more likely it is that, if things happen to go wrong, they will go disastrously wrong (though there seems to maybe be some ways of people who know each other to work around this). Also, combat magic works almost exactly like regular combat styles, mechanically speaking, just that it can do some things martial styles can't, and there's also non-combat magic that can do some stuff that's downright amazing.

All-in-all, it sounds like a fun system with a lot of nice character options and such, and I kind of want to get it, but I'm not sure if I'd ever get to play it, since it's hard enough to get my regular gaming group to play anything besides D&D 5e (not so much because they're unwilling to try other systems, but more that we have a lot of people who want to DM, so it's hard to fit in other things).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 07:58:16 am

Spoiler: Numenera review review review (click to show/hide)

Quote

It has the promise of a fantastic setting, but I feel it makes some missteps, and the rules take a fumbling stab at elegance and end up putting a hole in their own foot.

Personally, I'd see that more as "wanted to like it, but the game wouldn't allow him to" rather than "going in with the objective to hate", but I suppose that's a quibbling matter.

Funny thing about the new words though, the word for dust in the ninth world ("drit") is very close to the Norwegian/Swedish word for "shit". I can just imagine some wealthy merchant yelling at their butler "Esnafrap! Start shitting the furniture immediately! We've got guests arriving shortly, and we can't have a layer of shit covering the table and chairs!"...


As for the armor, it's one thing that heavy armor causes penalties which are lessened by having proficiency (most systems will have something of the sort, if they have armor), and it's another thing to say that one of those penalties is that wearing armor apparently stabs you every hour on the hour.

Like, I get it that it's supposed to model exhaustion caused by wearing encumbering gear, but since Might also represents hitpoints (along with everything else representing hitpoints), it also means that anyone without "practiced in armor" while wearing medium armor is in fact getting attacked by an armor-piercing light weapon every hour. Which is... Weird. Glaives can wear medium armor without dying, but heavy armor comes equipped with an armor gnome that will still nibble on your nipples every so often.

The penalty to speed rolls is already a not-insignicant malus, but the fact that you could slowly murder someone by putting them into a suit of heavy armor is... Well, actually, that sounds like an absolutely hilarious way to interrogate someone.

Maybe it represents the agonizing pain of wearing chainmail and having it pluck all your hair every time it moves? Sure, why not. (The reviewer also says that he's being a bit unfair and that it's just "bad", not "completely horrible". I'm not sure I agree)


As for free-form skills, I absolutely do not like free-form skills. The book even highlights one of the major problems a system like that can lead to, as a suggestion. It's a lot of the same issue that 13th Age has with backgrounds, but to a (mercifully) lesser degree. You're giving players the choice between "I'm Batman" and "I can fix left-handed watches on the fifth of May", and leaving it entirely to the players to not only formulate a genie's wish of a skill so that it can apply to as many things as possible, but then also argue for every usage of that appropriately-vague and vaguely-appropriate skill.

It leads to arguments and animosity, is what I'm saying. Don't do it in a serious setting (which Numenera purportedly tries to be).


The "adjective noun who verbs" thing is a matter of semantics. Yes, character creation is as "simple" as picking three words, and you're done! ...except that you won't have a clue as to what that character actually does, and it won't necessarily work unless you do go through the business of reading all the instances in each category and then checking them against one another; in which case, is it really that much simpler than another system? It claims elegance and brevity, doing away with the mess and clutter of those other character generators... And then all it does is just clump the clutter together into larger chunks. So, yes and no.


For Glaives being boring, one thing is that they're boring, the other is that they're exclusively focused on one specific way of handling one specific problem (namely: Fighting monsters when there are monsters that can be fought)... When the other classes can also be pretty good at that one way of handling that one type of problem, while also having other options available to them. It's not "Why is there a combat class if you don't get XP from combat", it's "Why is there a class that can only solve combat problems when combat problems are not the only (or biggest, or even most common, all depending) problem you'll encounter".

Sure, one could argue that with the appropriate edge and pool, anyone could solve a given out-of-combat problem... But Glaives don't really have any abilities that can be interpreted to apply to out-of-combat usage, while Nanos get a buttload of utility and Jacks can steal their share from the Nano list. The only thing that's really jumping out at me is Successive Attack, which if you can argue for it, might let you solve a problem where there are two far-away buttons that need to be pressed within a couple seconds of one another in order to progress. Or maybe you have an easy-going DM who's willing to interpret one of your many "do slightly more damage to an enemy" abilities as "lets you break a door down slightly easier". Which doesn't really make much sense for a fair few of them, but beggars can't be choosers...

And Nanos with all their "utility and other stuff" focus... Are also just fine tearing shit up in combat encounters. Which makes the Glaive's exclusive specialization mean a lot less.


Going into Verbs...

Quote

Also I think it's funny to note the reviewer whines about everything using init, whereas previously he was whining about everything hitting strength. Almost as if one was pseudo mana and one was pseudo health. Hummmmmm...

But this is the issue though, it's not pseudo-mana and pseudo-health. They're all pseudo-mana and pseudo-health. So the strongboi who specializes in strength so he can take a beating fitting for his specialization and also expend his might on doing might-based things, is going to find that most of the Verbs don't really apply to him because the majority are intelligence based for some reason. Even though there are some pretty big precedents set that would make you think that you'd use might to do might-related things, and speed to do speed-related things (whatever that's even supposed to mean)... But that's not really supported by the Verbs, which despite being applicable to every character type, are primarily focused on intellect-based casters.

Like, there are even Verbs that let you use intellect to boost or supplant might/speed entirely, but there's no "quick thinking" or "percussive engineering" to let you do intellect stuff using your speed or might. For an actually interesting mechanic that's supposed to give you lots of options, a fair few of those options are "be a mage, stat INT".

The combination of this and how most enemies (and probably a lot of random occurrences as well) do might damage all adds up to might-based characters improving and focusing on their might pool not so that they can use it to do interesting things, like the other pools can do, but to just be able to survive more hits. You're playing a sponge. Boring, not a lot of career options, just there to stand around and suck it up. That's why "all combat is focused on might, all options are focused on intellect" is a problem.

Heck, even speedy characters don't get a lot of goodies in the Verb list. Which really doesn't make sense, but then again "speed" in general is kind of an odd spot.


As for connections, the reviewer actually quite likes the idea of connections... The problem is that several of the connections offered up in the Verbs category are exclusively and painfully detrimental, which is a big problem. I also feel that having set, specific connections tied into backgrounds is a bit clunky and predictable, especially when every character gets one, but I think that throwing a random tie-in here or there can actually be quite interesting and can help parties interact with each other more often and in more interesting ways.



I think the reviewer really lays into the minutiae precisely because there are some legitimately good ideas buried in there, but to get at them you have to go through every other damn thing that's slowing the system down. Intrusions are a mechanic that could be turned around to do good things, but the way Numenera goes about it is horrid (the reviewer actually likes the "player keeps 1 XP, gives 1 XP to other player because whatever" system, while I immediately skittered away from it). I actually think stat pools can have some merit, but I also think that Numenera's handling of them is a bit clunky. ...they're also technically not the only ones (or the first ones) to have a system like that, as the eternally terrible Superbabes (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/bieeardo/superbabes/) PP mechanic is fairly similar, while being attached to an even worse RPG!

The exasperated nitpicking comes from a position of trying to be open to a system, trying to like it... And being slapped at every turn by something or other that simply doesn't make any sense.

As an aside for the true connoisseur; 10% Chance to Stab Yourself (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/purplexvi/simple10/).


EDIT: Holy heck, just got done reading the one on Powers & Perils (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/dwarf74/powersandperils/). There's crunchy, and then there's breaking your damn teeth. This mostly seems like throwing an armful of dice at a wall and then pulling out the ol' Texas Instruments to calculate exactly how fucked you ended up being.

EDIT2:

Quote from: Kadzar on February 03, 2019, 12:58:22 am

I found a review on FATAL & Friends for a game called Spellbound Kingdoms (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/nifara/spellbound-kingdoms/)

*Looks at front cover

Huh, whaddaya know... An RPG starring Nathan Fillion. Looks like he's misbehavin' again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on February 03, 2019, 12:35:21 pm

Spoiler: Reviewception (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 07:58:16 am

As for the armor, it's one thing that heavy armor causes penalties which are lessened by having proficiency (most systems will have something of the sort, if they have armor), and it's another thing to say that one of those penalties is that wearing armor apparently stabs you every hour on the hour.

Like, I get it that it's supposed to model exhaustion caused by wearing encumbering gear, but since Might also represents hitpoints (along with everything else representing hitpoints), it also means that anyone without "practiced in armor" while wearing medium armor is in fact getting attacked by an armor-piercing light weapon every hour. Which is... Weird. Glaives can wear medium armor without dying, but heavy armor comes equipped with an armor gnome that will still nibble on your nipples every so often.

The penalty to speed rolls is already a not-insignicant malus, but the fact that you could slowly murder someone by putting them into a suit of heavy armor is... Well, actually, that sounds like an absolutely hilarious way to interrogate someone.

Maybe it represents the agonizing pain of wearing chainmail and having it pluck all your hair every time it moves? Sure, why not. (The reviewer also says that he's being a bit unfair and that it's just "bad", not "completely horrible". I'm not sure I agree)

This feels like just a fundamental disconnect in opinion here, like, pools represent a lot of things, stamina, health, whatever. It makes perfect sense that wearing too heavy of armor for too long will exhaust you, there's no reason to have to imagine it as doing physical damage to you "an armor gnome nibbling on you". To imagine all loss as actual damage being done makes the system seem ridiculous of course, why do your bones break when you punch? Why does your brain bleed out your ears when you think too hard? But there's no reason to imagine it that way; just like in D&D it makes way more sense to imagine hp as a pool of luck and stamina that you use to avoid serious injuries until you actually loose enough to start dying. It makes perfect sense if you imagine the pools as a reserve of stamina/effort/even luck that you exhaust and don't actual take damage until it runs out. Sure, a player can refuse to imagine it in a way that makes sense, but at a certain point I think that's on the player more then the game maker.

Quote from: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 07:58:16 am

As for free-form skills, I absolutely do not like free-form skills. The book even highlights one of the major problems a system like that can lead to, as a suggestion. It's a lot of the same issue that 13th Age has with backgrounds, but to a (mercifully) lesser degree. You're giving players the choice between "I'm Batman" and "I can fix left-handed watches on the fifth of May", and leaving it entirely to the players to not only formulate a genie's wish of a skill so that it can apply to as many things as possible, but then also argue for every usage of that appropriately-vague and vaguely-appropriate skill.

It leads to arguments and animosity, is what I'm saying. Don't do it in a serious setting (which Numenera purportedly tries to be).

Although I agree sorta, I don't like free form skills, I don't think it's as bad as you are making it out. All it means is that you need to actually talk with your gm and come up with something acceptable to both of you. If you can't do that you shouldn't be playing in a serious setting anyway. Hell, if you can't talk to your gm, you probably shouldn't be playing with them at all.

Quote from: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 07:58:16 am

The "adjective noun who verbs" thing is a matter of semantics. Yes, character creation is as "simple" as picking three words, and you're done! ...except that you won't have a clue as to what that character actually does, and it won't necessarily work unless you do go through the business of reading all the instances in each category and then checking them against one another; in which case, is it really that much simpler than another system? It claims elegance and brevity, doing away with the mess and clutter of those other character generators... And then all it does is just clump the clutter together into larger chunks. So, yes and no.

This is not true. I invite you to go read the pdf. The reviewer took the sentence out of context and presented it as something it's not. It says that you build a simple sentence, which is true, you do build a simple sentence, which then can tell people what they need to know about your character. It makes no claims that the building of this sentence is simple. The sentence as a whole is taken from a section of the book that immediately describes the process, presenting it as some type of claim to the game having a single sentence character building process is absurd.

Quote from: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 07:58:16 am

For Glaives being boring, one thing is that they're boring, the other is that they're exclusively focused on one specific way of handling one specific problem (namely: Fighting monsters when there are monsters that can be fought)... When the other classes can also be pretty good at that one way of handling that one type of problem, while also having other options available to them. It's not "Why is there a combat class if you don't get XP from combat", it's "Why is there a class that can only solve combat problems when combat problems are not the only (or biggest, or even most common, all depending) problem you'll encounter".

Sure, one could argue that with the appropriate edge and pool, anyone could solve a given out-of-combat problem... But Glaives don't really have any abilities that can be interpreted to apply to out-of-combat usage, while Nanos get a buttload of utility and Jacks can steal their share from the Nano list. The only thing that's really jumping out at me is Successive Attack, which if you can argue for it, might let you solve a problem where there are two far-away buttons that need to be pressed within a couple seconds of one another in order to progress. Or maybe you have an easy-going DM who's willing to interpret one of your many "do slightly more damage to an enemy" abilities as "lets you break a door down slightly easier". Which doesn't really make much sense for a fair few of them, but beggars can't be choosers...

And Nanos with all their "utility and other stuff" focus... Are also just fine tearing shit up in combat encounters. Which makes the Glaive's exclusive specialization mean a lot less.

I totally agree that Glaves are too combat focused. But I don't think you should brush off edges and pool use too much. No one gets that many interesting abilities, not even Nanos. Most things that need to be overcome are probably going to come from edges and pools. exspecally at lower tiers. Over all, I agree that glaves need more love, but characterizing them as incapable out of combat is unfair, they have less out of combat use, but between edges, pools, adjectives, and verbs, they certainly don't have none.

Quote from: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 07:58:16 am

But this is the issue though, it's not pseudo-mana and pseudo-health. They're all pseudo-mana and pseudo-health. So the strongboi who specializes in strength so he can take a beating fitting for his specialization and also expend his might on doing might-based things, is going to find that most of the Verbs don't really apply to him because the majority are intelligence based for some reason. Even though there are some pretty big precedents set that would make you think that you'd use might to do might-related things, and speed to do speed-related things (whatever that's even supposed to mean)... But that's not really supported by the Verbs, which despite being applicable to every character type, are primarily focused on intellect-based casters.

Like, there are even Verbs that let you use intellect to boost or supplant might/speed entirely, but there's no "quick thinking" or "percussive engineering" to let you do intellect stuff using your speed or might. For an actually interesting mechanic that's supposed to give you lots of options, a fair few of those options are "be a mage, stat INT".

The combination of this and how most enemies (and probably a lot of random occurrences as well) do might damage all adds up to might-based characters improving and focusing on their might pool not so that they can use it to do interesting things, like the other pools can do, but to just be able to survive more hits. You're playing a sponge. Boring, not a lot of career options, just there to stand around and suck it up. That's why "all combat is focused on might, all options are focused on intellect" is a problem.

Heck, even speedy characters don't get a lot of goodies in the Verb list. Which really doesn't make sense, but then again "speed" in general is kind of an odd spot.

I disagree with you here. It's important to note that everyone has an int pool, even glaves, and a lot of the verbs that use int don't cost very much int at all, from the glaves perspective, it's actually preferable to get an int verb, so long as it's not one of the expensive ones, because it gives them something to do with their int that they already have but often are not using. It's worth noting as well, you might be missing, in combat or other dangerous challenges, you're pretty likely to be taking speed pool loss instead of or in additional to strength pool, it's the primary dodging pool after all, and you can use it to attack. So saying all combat is focused on might is simply inaccurate, speed shares an equal spot to might in combat.

Quote from: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 07:58:16 am

The exasperated nitpicking comes from a position of trying to be open to a system, trying to like it... And being slapped at every turn by something or other that simply doesn't make any sense.

Well, ymmv I guess. The way the guy takes some things out of context and assumes the worst speaks to me as someone looking for reasons to dislike something, not someone open to it but just being beaten down by its (admittedly many) flaws. But, I guess it doesn't really matter too much one way or another.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 03, 2019, 02:11:23 pm

Y'know, looking closer at that Spellbound Kingdoms post... It starts off really neat, with some interesting and very dramatic/cinematic mechanics, which also segues very nicely into some actual mechanical advantages for doing things your character would enjoy doing (such as having a nice drink, an extravagant meal, or a soak in a bath), and even some actual social skill usage! Some really cool ideas there, with a lot of potential. The combat isn't particularly well showcased in the review, but the general concept still looks quite interesting as a system.

...aaand then it kinda gets muddled the deeper you get into it, with some more free-form skills/backgrounds (which you can apparently alter and increase the scope of during play? I don't even know what I feel about that), a fair few "GM decides what this actually does", some of the culture rules... Eh.

Shame it's an incomplete review. I'm still interested by what I've seen, but not nearly as hyped as when I first started reading.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 04, 2019, 08:54:51 am

I played myfarog.

Yes, for real.

It...  If it werent so overtly political, if the races werent obvious racist analogues I'd actually like the setting.   Its set in a pre-viking germanic world with the old versions of the gods, Tiwaz and Wodanaz etc. and theres some fun stuff with the tension between the old animistic ways and the new deity-worship.  The entire world outside thule has been taken over by ettins which are lovecraftian fomorians, and theres a lot of fun ideas.  I could houserule the racist stuff out, but the rules themselves are terrible, and poorly laid out.  No less than four die rolls to determine hit and damage, excessive modifiers, just a slog. 

I'm making a Dungeon Crawl Classics hexcrawl, getting back to the good shit.  Will post the map so far after work

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 04, 2019, 09:14:42 am

Aw shucks, ol' Varg "The Count" Vikernes? I thought he'd completely dropped off the relevance pedestal ages ago, and now only served as a distant memory for metalheads to occasionally wax reminiscent about "that lil' scamp".


...in a complete coincidence, Facebook just threw out an ad for a Norwegian restaurant called "NIKKERS". We swear it's not racist!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 04, 2019, 09:22:02 am

He still exists.  Hes moved away from black metal and is now a dumber norwegian TedK.  He also made a terrible RPG which i played this weekend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 04, 2019, 09:24:05 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 04, 2019, 09:14:42 am

...in a complete coincidence, Facebook just threw out an ad for a Norwegian restaurant called "NIKKERS".

Honestly my first thought was a raunchy restaurant like Hooters ("boobs").  Though I guess "knickers" ("underpants") is a British word...

That "FATAL & Friends" is a nice archive!  It's nice hearing the thoughts hear about systems I haven't played, and I particularly enjoyed reading there about the Dune RPG.  Not because it's particularly good, apparently...  The writer of the review mostly complains about inaccuracy, then goes into "brief" explanations of the actual canon of Dune.  I learned a lot about the setting, with bad RPG mechanics as comic relief.  I might have weird tastes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 04, 2019, 02:28:44 pm

What the utter fuck. (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/bellum-maga/)

Quote

The downside is the Goddesses Head sense her vision of possible the futures.

...aaanyways.

Quote from: Rolan7 on February 04, 2019, 09:24:05 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 04, 2019, 09:14:42 am

...in a complete coincidence, Facebook just threw out an ad for a Norwegian restaurant called "NIKKERS".

Honestly my first thought was a raunchy restaurant like Hooters ("boobs").  Though I guess "knickers" ("underpants") is a British word...

"Nikk" is actually a word in Norwegian, meaning "nod". So "nikker" means "nodding", as in "that person is nodding". However, even if you were to assign a plural to that ("nodders"?), -s isn't the suffix used for plurality... Possessive, maybe? Norwegian doesn't use an apostrophe with possessive 's'es, so maybe it was established by someone named "Nikker". Or, maybe this is just... Someone's fun name for a restaurant.

Picking around the homepage a little bit, I can't find any information other than that it's a "relaxed, cozy, modern bar and restaurant" that offers "Norwegian food and culture", and that it's located in the middle of Nobodyville, Lower Bumfuck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 04, 2019, 05:19:34 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on February 04, 2019, 09:24:05 am

That "FATAL & Friends" is a nice archive!  It's nice hearing the thoughts hear about systems I haven't played, and I particularly enjoyed reading there about the Dune RPG.  Not because it's particularly good, apparently...  The writer of the review mostly complains about inaccuracy, then goes into "brief" explanations of the actual canon of Dune.  I learned a lot about the setting, with bad RPG mechanics as comic relief.  I might have weird tastes.

Yeah, they kind of remind me of the old WTF, D&D!? articles (https://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/) (which isn't too surprising, since they both come from Something Awful), in that they might be somewhat exaggerated and you should probably take them with a grain of salt, but they give a decent enough impression of systems you may not be familiar with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 04, 2019, 05:44:36 pm

I... I actually kinda wanna play FATAL now, if such a thing is even possible. If only to attempt to urinate and then fail my skill check.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 04, 2019, 05:56:29 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 04, 2019, 05:44:36 pm

I... I actually kinda wanna play FATAL now, if such a thing is even possible. If only to attempt to urinate and then fail my skill check.

I think everyone gets that impulse, but it's honestly far from worth it. Actually rolling a d 10,000,000 is kind of fun once, but eventually you just get so bogged down in the numbers and tables and general awfulness that you don't even notice what you're rolling for, let alone laugh at it. As shock-value games go, it's among the more playable, but when its main competitors are RaHoWa and HYBRID that's not a high bar.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 04, 2019, 09:10:29 pm

Yeah, I personally don't see the appeal of playing an objectively terrible game. I'd much rather play a game like deadEarth or World of Synnibarr, where, sure, the rules are terrible, but the core idea sounds fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on February 04, 2019, 10:04:03 pm

Oh, wow, I actually own a copy of the Dragon Ball Z (https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/lynx-winters/dragonball-z-the-anime-adventure-game/) RPG on that site.  It's every bit as terrible as the review makes it out to be, and I remember houseruling almost everything when I played with my brothers.

Amazingly, the reviewer got more out of the rules than I did, because from what I recall, the copy of the book we have doesn't even tell you what the power level stat does.  We ended up making it add to your attacks or something at some fraction, if I remember right.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 04, 2019, 10:33:53 pm

Spoiler: As promised, my hexcrawl map for DCC (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/38mYmOs.png?1)

Still need to add roads but that's about it.  There's a grid and key but I took the layers off for this pic. 

• Koth is a decrepit kingdom falling into decay, the distant settlements basically independent.   
• Acatepec is the default Aztec civilization.  Tlalocan raids the northern jungle tribes for sacrifices to their thirsting gods, but a trade agreement keeps them from raiding Yoz (at least officially, independent bands and heretics still do).
• Yoz is the cursed delta.  A fragment of a previous natural order was left behind there when the new world was created, festering beneath the ground like a parasite and infecting the land above with alien life.
• Akan is the obligatory desert, and Punjar is the wickedest city in the world.

The entire area's a little more than a hundred miles across; the mountains are actually a thin chain with only a couple peaks, but it's an impressionistic map, not realistic.  Climate in Koth is hot and dry in the summer and cool and rainy in the winter.  As far as accurate scale goes, fun fact, the landform is part of Ecuador, cropped directly from google maps (https://i.imgur.com/m1UE86N.png) and very close to actual size, with a few liberties taken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 05, 2019, 01:34:51 am

Where are the hexes, tho?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2019, 01:40:18 am

How does a DBZ RPG even work

Shouldn't it take like four sessions to do anything

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 05:13:46 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2019, 01:40:18 am

How does a DBZ RPG even work

Shouldn't it take like four sessions to do anything

Sessions end mid-combat

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 05, 2019, 05:15:53 am

Players yell at each other for several hours then the GM arbitrarily decides on a winner. Repeat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 05, 2019, 05:21:17 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on February 05, 2019, 05:15:53 am

Players yell at each other for several hours then the GM arbitrarily decides on a winner. Repeat.

So, a politics simulation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 07:00:26 am

If Medusa became a vampire, would she be unbeatable?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 05, 2019, 07:26:17 am

Why would she? Mirrors isn't the only way to beat Medusa. Sticking a fork in her heart works just as well, and now she's also vulnerable to sunlight, so now you can also defeat her by using your mirror to shower her with sunlight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 05, 2019, 07:51:47 am

Technically mirrors aren't even a way to defeat Medusa. Perseus just used his shield as a mirror to see where to swing his sword without getting turned to stone. Then, too, vampires' reflections are only supposed to not show in silver, so a polished shield would still work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on February 05, 2019, 08:09:15 am

Or a non-silvered mirror (which is, IIRC, what most mirrors are nowadays). :p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 08:11:58 am

Quote from: scriver on February 05, 2019, 07:26:17 am

Why would she? Mirrors isn't the only way to beat Medusa. Sticking a fork in her heart works just as well, and now she's also vulnerable to sunlight, so now you can also defeat her by using your mirror to shower her with sunlight.

Yeh, but just try and stick a fork in someone's heart without looking at them. It's "Pin the Tail On the Donkey: Ironman Mode".

Quote from: Trekkin on February 05, 2019, 07:51:47 am

Technically mirrors aren't even a way to defeat Medusa. Perseus just used his shield as a mirror to see where to swing his sword without getting turned to stone. Then, too, vampires' reflections are only supposed to not show in silver, so a polished shield would still work.

S'pose that's true, unless the shield was silvered for some reason... Was gonna make a comment about trying to see usable reflections in something like bronze, but then we've got Bob Munden over here shooting targets via the reflection in an engagement ring... So eh.

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on February 05, 2019, 08:09:15 am

Or a non-silvered mirror (which is, IIRC, what most mirrors are nowadays). :p

Nowadays, yes, but that kind of technology wasn't really big in her days.


I'm surprised no one mentioned the slight difficulty of trying to feed on victims without them seeing her and turning to stone.

Quote from: Kadzar on February 04, 2019, 09:10:29 pm

Yeah, I personally don't see the appeal of playing an objectively terrible game. I'd much rather play a game like deadEarth or World of Synnibarr, where, sure, the rules are terrible, but the core idea sounds fun.

Just started reading about Synnibar, I've only just gotten past the class review of the Alchemist and how 80% of its abilities don't work. I'm digging the fact that a half-decent roll can apparently put you into a strength class that lets you "throw a 370 pound object at 243 miles per hour a distance of 6,660 feet, and the object will take its weight in pounds in damage". But I dunno, it doesn't seem quite as inherently bogged down as FATAL with unnecessary skills and checks, at least not yet...

deadEarth is always good fun though. "Will we survive character creation? Who knows!"


Also finished off what little there was of the Monte Cook's World of Darkness blurb, so although the concept of "vampires do it better, mages do it best" was introduced, we never got to see just how fucky mages actually got in MCWoD.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2019, 08:31:08 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 08:11:58 am

I'm digging the fact that a half-decent roll can apparently put you into a strength class that lets you "throw a 370 pound object at 243 miles per hour a distance of 6,660 feet, and the object will take its weight in pounds in damage".

Imagine being so swole you are your own trebuchet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 05, 2019, 08:54:56 am

I don't believe the whole "only silver mirrors" thing anyway. Sounds 110% like a factoid that gets spread around because everybody loves to be a betterknower.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on February 05, 2019, 09:01:00 am

Oh hey, on the subject of obscure RPGs, I would recommend looking up Sailor Moon's take. It's surprisingly robust.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on February 05, 2019, 09:06:37 am

The Big Eyes Small Mouth version?  My cousin had a copy of it and I remember trying it some, but don't remember all that much about it.

The main thing I took away from it, which was surprisingly good and necessary advice for me over the years, is that you can't run a game for both good guys and bad guys at the same time.  Honestly, I'm surprised the game even floated the idea of running games for characters from the Negaverse (or whatever it was called) at all.

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2019, 01:40:18 am

How does a DBZ RPG even work

In seriousness, not well.  I actually can't imagine how you'd make a fulfilling DBZ RPG, since it's nothing but fighting and having bigger numbers than your opponent means you win.  Dragon Ball might be doable, but Dragon Ball Z is probably always going to break down mechanically.

The Fuzion based version was a train wreck on top of that, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2019, 09:24:40 am

Quote from: birdy51 on February 05, 2019, 09:01:00 am

Oh hey, on the subject of obscure RPGs, I would recommend looking up Sailor Moon's take. It's surprisingly robust.

Can I declare my job is done and just run off, in spite of not doing anything

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on February 05, 2019, 09:30:03 am

Quote from: scriver on February 05, 2019, 08:54:56 am

I don't believe the whole "only silver mirrors" thing anyway. Sounds 110% like a factoid that gets spread around because everybody loves to be a betterknower.

Sounds to me like something somebody wrote into their setting because they thought it was super elegant, and in-setting said something to the tune of "nobody knows this but it's super true" and then readers thought that was a general statement outside of the game, or just spread it because they also think it's elegant. It's hard to imagine that myths from a time when everything was silvered would specify that. Especially since silver isn't a super common theme in vampire mythology to begin with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 05, 2019, 09:39:31 am

I love obscure RPGs, for all definitions of obscure. Ancient shit like Adventures in Fantasy and MEGA, old shit like Strange Frontiers and Agone, new shit like all three lines from GenIsys Games (distinct from the good FFG system and the meh Terminator series) with their mind-bendingly massive character sheets, off-color shit like Asylum and its bag of marbles. I've tried to start up an "obscure game review" thing but, seeing as they're obscure and few people enjoy the things I do, it never really took off.

They're mostly mediocre-bad but some games (like Agone, though that's seemingly still popular-ish in its home country of France) are pretty good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 05, 2019, 11:57:31 am

Recently read the book for Violence, which is basically an RPG version of Hatred, written by Designer X who's apparently a well known designer who didnt want his name attached to it.

Thinking about changing my system from DCC to swords and wizardry, a popular OD&D revamp.  DCC is great but it has an almost memey approach to a lot of old school tropes which is clashing with the initial plot thread I want to weave into my hexcrawl, which is more magically oriented, whereas DCC magic is hypercompetitive and cannibalistic and doesnt like organized magic. Busting out the alexandrian's node-based storytelling, set up a villain and henchmen and a goal, gonna write up a general schedule of activities with no player interference, and then populate the hexes with clues and the aforementioned activities so when the players stumble on the conspiracy it feels organic, rather than something i laid out and railroaded them into

DCC also veers away from true OSR in a lot of ways that feel "load-bearing" to me, like the XP system which feels more like a storygame with semi fixed gains each adventure.  Gold as XP is love, gold as XP is life.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 05, 2019, 12:05:54 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on February 05, 2019, 09:30:03 am

Quote from: scriver on February 05, 2019, 08:54:56 am

I don't believe the whole "only silver mirrors" thing anyway. Sounds 110% like a factoid that gets spread around because everybody loves to be a betterknower.

Sounds to me like something somebody wrote into their setting because they thought it was super elegant, and in-setting said something to the tune of "nobody knows this but it's super true" and then readers thought that was a general statement outside of the game, or just spread it because they also think it's elegant. It's hard to imagine that myths from a time when everything was silvered would specify that. Especially since silver isn't a super common theme in vampire mythology to begin with.

Well, in a way, vampires weren't super common in vampire mythology to begin with, at least not in the sense that we're familiar with them now; the common traits of vampires (undead, sucks blood, looks like an attractive human under certain circumstances) weren't all really found in the same mythological creature prior to Dracula. Probably the antecedent of the silver thing was the use of silver coins soaked in blood to repel the Albanian shtriga, although these were blood-sucking witches, and interestingly the dhampir, from the same region, lack a shadow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on February 05, 2019, 12:15:54 pm

Quote from: Telgin on February 05, 2019, 09:06:37 am

The main thing I took away from it, which was surprisingly good and necessary advice for me over the years, is that you can't run a game for both good guys and bad guys at the same time.  Honestly, I'm surprised the game even floated the idea of running games for characters from the Negaverse (or whatever it was called) at all.

That is good advice indeed. I am not sure if many other source books even get to do that kind of thing, since villain vs. hero powers seems to be well-defined in this instance.

Another fun note though is that apparently the book is packed with background information; so that someone who hasn't even seen the show can still get a gist of what the world is like without really having to hunt down background information.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 01:35:44 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on February 05, 2019, 12:05:54 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on February 05, 2019, 09:30:03 am

Quote from: scriver on February 05, 2019, 08:54:56 am

I don't believe the whole "only silver mirrors" thing anyway. Sounds 110% like a factoid that gets spread around because everybody loves to be a betterknower.

Sounds to me like something somebody wrote into their setting because they thought it was super elegant, and in-setting said something to the tune of "nobody knows this but it's super true" and then readers thought that was a general statement outside of the game, or just spread it because they also think it's elegant. It's hard to imagine that myths from a time when everything was silvered would specify that. Especially since silver isn't a super common theme in vampire mythology to begin with.

Well, in a way, vampires weren't super common in vampire mythology to begin with, at least not in the sense that we're familiar with them now; the common traits of vampires (undead, sucks blood, looks like an attractive human under certain circumstances) weren't all really found in the same mythological creature prior to Dracula. Probably the antecedent of the silver thing was the use of silver coins soaked in blood to repel the Albanian shtriga, although these were blood-sucking witches, and interestingly the dhampir, from the same region, lack a shadow.

"What are you doing with that wooden stake? You kill a vampire by cutting its head off and sewing it onto the neck backwards. Everyone knows that!"

Now you will know why you fear the night. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_pumpkins_and_watermelons)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2019, 03:09:55 pm

>not using Hamon Energy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 04:25:21 pm

Good grief, the "example of play" for World of Synnibarr is a train wreck...


On another note, anyone have experience with Atlantis: The Second Age? The FATAL and Friends review trails off pretty early on, and I thought some of it looked interesting. Although, I must admit, a couple of the racial options look somewhat problematic to roleplay... Like, yeah, we've got the actively apathetic gorillamen, the inherently psychopathic neanderthals, and then there are the djinni who are really just seven colors of fucked. Not entirely sure how well you can communicate when most of your sentences either trail off or start in the middle.

Stares at child

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 05, 2019, 04:41:24 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 04:25:21 pm

On another note, anyone have experience with Atlantis: The Second Age?

I can't tell if the review is for first or second edition. I own first edition (and the old '80s edition) but haven't played. Any questions? I can maybe share some snippets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 05, 2019, 04:54:46 pm

Was mainly interested in how well the gameplay flowed in a standard game, and yeah... Curious as to how broken, mechanically or roleplay-wise, the different races were. Not to mention spellcasting! Which the review never got around to digging into...

Like, the however many varieties of furry races seemed easy enough to fit into an adventuring party, but how do you work out playing a race that by definition cannot feel emotions or conceptualize actions that aren't directly and immediately self-serving? Not to mention trying to play "chaotic random" as another personality type.

I'm also not particularly familiar with the Omega system as a whole, but I do remember hearing about it singing its own praises back in the day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 05, 2019, 09:17:06 pm

Spoiler: Atlantis: The Second Age First Edition, The Thirdening Part Four (click to show/hide)

Looks like the review is for second edition. Mine's got ugly Poser art and a map on the cover, so it's first edition. Yay.

For first edition, there's absolutely nothing in the text describing how races feel about one another. Guess it's, like so many other aspects of the game, GM fiat. The race list is also a bit different.

Second edition is probably a bit easier to consistently break, while first is probably easier to break accidentally. First edition only includes random attribute generation. Because rolling your attributes on a straight d20 (x/2 - 5, round down) is preferable to having some kind of average curve (or starting at 0 and having your race/calling build up from there, like second edition appears to do it). It's hard to fail at things you've built yourself to be good at. The degree of difficulty you'll be looking at is typically between -10 and 10. Your attributes max out at +5. Skills max out at +40, with +10 being professional level (which is attainable during character creation). 1d20 + Attribute + Skill (or 2x Attribute if you're doing an attribute check) + DoD. <0 is a mishap, <5 a simple failure, <10 a partial success.

There are no spell points, spell slots, or related shenaniganry. You've got some combination of order (witchcraft, shamanism, sorcery, and six others), mode (manifest, manipulate, influence, and six others), and spell level. Think Babby's First Ars Magica. Add up the first two, subtract the spell level, and then subtract the number of non-crit spells you've cast today.

Your order is more than just another skill.  Some orders require spell components, some cause flashy effects, some have an inability with certain modes and bonuses to others.

As for a spell list, there isn't one (aside from the small number of examples for each order). You've got a spellbook (or prayer beads, medicine pouches, fetishes, <insert voodoo mumbo jumbo here>) but it just holds spells you've created or learned. Spells are freeform-ish. Manipulate + Invocation might heal wounds. Manipulate + Witchcraft might allow you to shapeshift. Attack + Invocation could result in you throwing bolts of holy energy while Attack + Mysticism could be something like a psionic mind stab. Each mode also has a small text box listing the default attributes of a relevant spell (attack: 1 HP, 50ft range, no area, etc) and the cost for increasing those attributes (1 HP per level, -1 to your roll for each 10ft range, -1 to your roll for each foot of radius, etc). A spell in your spellbook consists of all of those modifiers - Attack + Elemental (spell level 1, 50ft) is distinct from Attack + Elemental (spell level 1, 60ft). Note, you probably don't want a bunch of attack spells like that - you start with 5 + Int spells in your book and gaining a new one (via creation, being taught, or stealing someone's book) costs a number of XP (and amount of time in weeks) equal to its level. In a world where threat rating-appropriate challenges give 1 XP and tackling challenges too far beneath your threat rating gives none, new spells will probably be few and far between. Especially when you use those same XP to increase your skills, attributes, and talents.

As for actual play, I'm at the end of my... expertise? Knowledge? I'd give the game a shot but I'd definitely require mages to do their math out of game and send me the results so each session doesn't have a 30 minute break in the middle while they bit fiddle. Also, I'd not peruse the race section in public because nekkid boobies. Even on the scalies, mammalian mammaries.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 06, 2019, 03:47:45 am

Well, good to know. I've actually been pondering about freeform-ish spellcasting lately, trying to think how it might work without being either worthless or completely overpowered...

My original thinking was about trying to turn spellcasters into the "knowledge" class. In stuff like DnD, while they might have a big INT bonus that applies to knowledge skills, they generally don't really have that many points sunk into them, or much reason to do so.

So how would one tie spellcasting into a character's actual arcane knowledge, without it being subject to bowling over encounters with an inflated skill check? While being the lore and knowledge buff of the party is all well and good, we of course want them to be able to contribute in situations outside of "what do these runes say", preferably without turning them into the usual spellflinging two-legged apocalypse that invalidates the rest of the crew.

I'm not sure freeform spellcasting is necessarily the way to go in that circumstance (pulling different spell effects/targets from various schools of research), but it is still interesting to try and imagine how such a system might work.

I'll have to look into Atlantis' system and see how they do things. And of course everything has tits, how would we know they were female unless they looked like human women? The old gods understood this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on February 06, 2019, 04:04:52 am

Rather than tie to an intrinsic, like INT, tie to a skill domain instead.  In this case, "Arcane spellcasting".


OR,  Break down what is required to know how to do something into some bite-size knowledge bits, and then give them tiers.

EG-  "Fire domain knowledge", "Lightning domain knowledge", ... etc  with say each being a gradient from 0 to 10.  For each spell to be learned, give them a requisite domain requirement. (EG, "Needs 10 fire, 5 matter, and 2 lighting domain knowledge to learn.")  Maybe spice it up with a general "Applied channeling" domain as well, so you can overload spells safely.  You could tie intrinsics like INT to gaining additional domain knowledge points as you level up. (EG, "No, you can't up fire to 10, because your INT is too low to get to that tier.", etc.)



The downside to any expansion from the generalization from the base attribute method is that calculating requirements and outcomes becomes more and more tedious the less abstracted it becomes.  If you went with knowledge domain based requirements, be sure to keep the total number of domains manageable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 06, 2019, 04:15:11 am

Yes, but the idea was to have the skills themselves actually be applicable to the campaign, and then build magical effects off of that so that they have something to do when the chips are down.

Like, being knowledgeable about the divine language would not only let them translate passages of the language found on the adventure, but would also grant them knowledge of powerful words/commandments that could be enunciated for effect.

Knowledge of the orcish tribes and their history as a species would let you use that historical and biological knowledge when applicable, as well as granting a deeper understanding of their essential banes, letting you tailor a word of power to specifically target (and thereby have greater effect on) those sorts of orc, avoiding "friendly fire", so to speak. Then you'd have to figure out how to formulate it correctly, which would probably be more involved/lengthy the more descriptors used. _{pargon pargon pargon}

In effect I suppose it mainly comes down to semantics, like "fire domain" vs "fire domain, but also used to identify campfires", but yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on February 06, 2019, 04:45:01 am

I would put "Knowledge of fire, and its subsequent and component features" together in that domain.  This would then include things like combustion and oxidation, enthalpy, etc-- all in the same knowledge box.

With more obscure things being known only with a higher tier value.


The idea being that each spell that gets more powerful or useful, ends up requiring points in domains that convey the needed knowledge to create the effect.

For example, a greater fireball may need knowledge in the air domain (for its necessity to understand gas dynamics for the explosion), the matter domain (to get enough energy to stay in a semi-stable state while in flight rather than fizzling out), and the metaphysics domain (to be able to draw and handle enough energy to create the effect). 

It could have requirements like F6,A2,M2,C2

And could be modified to be more penetrating with added requirements, like say fluid physics (learned from water domain). 

I would tie it back with the base intrinsics (INT, CHA, DEX and pals) by requiring a baseline stat requirement before being able to gain additional points in the desired domains.   (EG,  need INT of 10-11 for "Fire 0-1", int12-13 for F2-4, ... etc.)

Just be careful not to go too far because then it becomes "Accounting Simulator and Logistics, Pen and Paper edition!" very quickly.

By breaking down any arbitrary effect into a knowledge and base ability requirement, you can then find a way to codify it into such a system, which would make it very flexible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 06, 2019, 08:23:02 am

Ars Magica does freeform spellcasting pretty well.  There are skills for elements and verbs and you can combine two to do anything reasonably covered by the verb, so if you know earth, air, and move you could pull a boulder out of the ground to make a walkway, or throw it at someone, or make a fire spread, etc.

It also has an interesting twist with parma magica which makes wizards nearly immune to magic.  Fling that boulder at a wizard and it wont even get dirt on his robes.  Fling it straight up like a mortar though and its gravity killing him, not magic.  Wizard duels are about creative usage of magic yo indirectly attack the enemy, or going Black Company style and trying to assassinate him.  Parma magica doesnt work on a sword

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 06, 2019, 08:49:41 am

I like to use parma magica on my spaghetti.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 06, 2019, 09:12:07 am

Kagus hasn't (presumably) been killed by magic yet. Story checks out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 06, 2019, 01:11:04 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 06, 2019, 04:15:11 am

Knowledge of the orcish tribes and their history as a species would let you use that historical and biological knowledge when applicable, as well as granting a deeper understanding of their essential banes, letting you tailor a word of power to specifically target (and thereby have greater effect on) those sorts of orc, avoiding "friendly fire", so to speak.

There's your answer: knowledge of enemy weaknesses to boost the output of the entire party, and a palette of varied magics to exploit those weaknesses. Make the knowledge skill use into a support ability and you get a useful class that can't nevertheless end encounters on its own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2019, 02:15:51 pm

Quote from: wierd on February 06, 2019, 04:04:52 am

EG-  "Fire domain knowledge", "Lightning domain knowledge", ... etc  with say each being a gradient from 0 to 10.  For each spell to be learned, give them a requisite domain requirement. (EG, "Needs 10 fire, 5 matter, and 2 lighting domain knowledge to learn.")  Maybe spice it up with a general "Applied channeling" domain as well, so you can overload spells safely.  You could tie intrinsics like INT to gaining additional domain knowledge points as you level up. (EG, "No, you can't up fire to 10, because your INT is too low to get to that tier.", etc.)

Isn't that basically how Mage: The Awakening worked?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 06, 2019, 05:49:21 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on February 05, 2019, 09:17:06 pm

-snip-

Atlantis: The Second Age's mechanics sound remarkably a lot like Talislanta's.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on February 09, 2019, 12:43:32 am

The more I read of Shadow of the Demon Lord, the more I like it. You start as level-zero nobodies with all sorts of interesting backgrounds (good and bad and everything in between). You choose from four novice paths, sixteen expert paths, and a heck-load of master paths to make highly unique characters (and that's just in the core game; supplements add even more paths). There are no experience points to track - the party as a whole levels up when thematically appropriate. There is even a mechanic designed to simulate the world slowly coming apart at the seams as the titular Demon Lord draws ever closer.

In completely unrelated news, I have opened a thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173221.0) in FG&RP. Check it out if you like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on February 09, 2019, 02:20:24 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2019, 02:15:51 pm

Quote from: wierd on February 06, 2019, 04:04:52 am

EG-  "Fire domain knowledge", "Lightning domain knowledge", ... etc  with say each being a gradient from 0 to 10.  For each spell to be learned, give them a requisite domain requirement. (EG, "Needs 10 fire, 5 matter, and 2 lighting domain knowledge to learn.")  Maybe spice it up with a general "Applied channeling" domain as well, so you can overload spells safely.  You could tie intrinsics like INT to gaining additional domain knowledge points as you level up. (EG, "No, you can't up fire to 10, because your INT is too low to get to that tier.", etc.)

Isn't that basically how Mage: The Awakening worked?

I'd have to check, never played it.  It just seemed like it was a potentially workable solution that would allow more freeform magic, by distilling knowledge and physical requirements down into something somewhat tolerable.  (just, again, the number of categories needs to be kept to a minimum to avoid tedium and "Accounting Simulator 2000!" levels of non-fun.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 10, 2019, 08:03:06 pm

While idly perusing some Numenera supplements, I settled in to read Into the Outside. Found an artifact that I figured some of you might get a kick of.

Since there's no kill quite like overkill, I'd like to present the Existence Knife, an artifact that is level 10 (4 above max) and has a blade on it. You decide this dude needs to die. Not only do you want him to die but you want his line to end before it started. If the dude you stabbed isn't of a higher level than [max_level+4], the knife does timey wimey stuff and stabs one of his ancestors instead. You're in the year a billion. I know humans weren't around for the entirety of that, but there are still a gaggle of ancestors to choose from. Better hope it doesn't accidentally snag genetic Adam or Eve. Better also hope you're not distant relatives.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on February 10, 2019, 09:06:08 pm

you all are though, that's the thing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 10, 2019, 09:11:43 pm

Awkward wording on my part. You want to use it on someone who is not closely related to yourself (go all Cain on your bro - you're basically guaranteed to create a murder/suicide situation) but there's always the chance that you accidentally shank Genetic Eve in the stomach. But on the upside, everyone involved is erased from time so it doesn't matter anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2019, 09:13:00 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on February 10, 2019, 08:03:06 pm

While idly perusing some Numenera supplements, I settled in to read Into the Outside. Found an artifact that I figured some of you might get a kick of.

Since there's no kill quite like overkill, I'd like to present the Existence Knife, an artifact that is level 10 (4 above max) and has a blade on it. You decide this dude needs to die. Not only do you want him to die but you want his line to end before it started. If the dude you stabbed isn't of a higher level than [max_level+4], the knife does timey wimey stuff and stabs one of his ancestors instead. You're in the year a billion. I know humans weren't around for the entirety of that, but there are still a gaggle of ancestors to choose from. Better hope it doesn't accidentally snag genetic Adam or Eve. Better also hope you're not distant relatives.

Consequences For Fucking With Time

Failure
1. Your skin and organs oscillate wildly on the edge of nonexistence before the timestream adapts, doing 4d10 cosmic damage.
2. Time travel isn't actually possible. The Existence Knife explodes in your hand, doing 4d8 force damage. You forget about the Existence Knife. Everybody forgets about the Existence Knife. Everybody remembering a scene involving the Existence Knife remembers it with a blind spot shaped like the Existence Knife. You have no idea why you got blown up and everyone is very confused. Cut the Existence Knife out of your character sheet with a real knife.
3. You stab yourself in the future. Take normal damage from the Existence Knife at a time of the GM's choosing.
4. DO NOT MESS WITH TIME. You appear and steal the Existence Knife out of your own hands before vanishing. That was a close one. You will regain the knife only when you reach this part of your repaired future.

Critical Failure
1. Eyes are too complex to have been created by evolution. You now have no eyes, including any indication that you could have had eyes. Lose all vision and darkvision, gain 10ft of blindsight.
2. The mitochondria is the powerhouse of your mom. Your mitochondrial DNA has lost several important adaptations, reducing their ability to safely create energy for your body. Gain three temporary and one permanent levels of exhaustion.
3. Curse of the Existence Knife. The Existence Knife disappears and is replaced by an entirely normal knife. You vaguely remember that this is not the true Existence Knife. What you posses now is the Nonexistence Knife, a quantum necessity created by the timestream. Attacks with the Nonexistence Knife deal 0d4 damage. When you die, the Existence Knife appears with you in your grave, sending out subtle psychic pulses to your nearest blood relative. This continues for each generation. Every generation after you takes a cumulative -1 to timestream checks caused by the Existence Knife.
4. I'm not saying it was aliens, but... Your actions have placed the Earth under the reign of an oppressive but distant alien species instead of the far preferable period of chaotic human rule you used to be in. Future uses of any artifact above level 3 will incur an orbital strike from your new masters.

Critical Success
1. Artificial selection? You feel...different. All human-descendant creatures gain two free attribute points.
2. What is this, fan-fiction? Erase a past tragedy of the player's choosing. This may be personal or collective in nature. The timestream will make minimal necessary adaptations to this change.
3. After getting stabbed, I realized how petty my life was. Instead of dying, the target of your attack becomes deeply sympathetic to your motives and feelings, and vice-versa. Though not strictly compulsive, killing each other at this point would probably be emotionally traumatizing.
4. Your preferences have been updated and saved. The Existence Knife exits the experimental mode it has been in for the past five hundred thousand years and reactivates its standard safeties. Future uses of the Existence Knife only stab back a couple of hundred years, removing all results on this table but Failures 3 and 4.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 10, 2019, 11:46:55 pm

Is that a quote or did you just write that

Because it's good wrote

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Arcvasti on February 10, 2019, 11:56:08 pm

Critical failure number 3 is too punishing. The Nonexistence knife should deal 0d8 damage instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 11, 2019, 01:45:00 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2019, 09:13:00 pm

Cut the Existence Knife out of your character sheet with a real knife.

What if your character sheet is in a digital format?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 11, 2019, 01:48:59 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on February 11, 2019, 01:45:00 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2019, 09:13:00 pm

Cut the Existence Knife out of your character sheet with a real knife.

What if your character sheet is in a digital format?

sed -i '/the Existence Knife/d' *

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on February 11, 2019, 02:22:29 am

Quote from: Trekkin on February 11, 2019, 01:48:59 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on February 11, 2019, 01:45:00 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2019, 09:13:00 pm

Cut the Existence Knife out of your character sheet with a real knife.

What if your character sheet is in a digital format?

sed -i '/the Existence Knife/d' *

But what if they use windows?  Do you expect them into install the ubuntu subsystem just to use command line driven string editing tools? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 11, 2019, 02:55:21 am

Quote from: wierd on February 11, 2019, 02:22:29 am

Quote from: Trekkin on February 11, 2019, 01:48:59 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on February 11, 2019, 01:45:00 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2019, 09:13:00 pm

Cut the Existence Knife out of your character sheet with a real knife.

What if your character sheet is in a digital format?

sed -i '/the Existence Knife/d' *

But what if they use windows?  Do you expect them into install the ubuntu subsystem just to use command line driven string editing tools? :P

Hey, you wanted to abuse the powers of the Existence Knife like some sort of toy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 11, 2019, 04:04:56 am

Heh, if only Numenera had blindness mechanics... Or exhaustion levels.

Or damage dice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 11, 2019, 11:16:48 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 11, 2019, 04:04:56 am

Heh, if only Numenera had blindness mechanics... Or exhaustion levels.

Or damage dice.

Know how I can tell you've never read the book?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 11, 2019, 11:29:04 am

Quote from: Mephisto on February 11, 2019, 11:16:48 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 11, 2019, 04:04:56 am

Heh, if only Numenera had blindness mechanics... Or exhaustion levels.

Or damage dice.

Know how I can tell you've never read the book?

Because you consider the wound tiers to be close enough to exhaustion levels to make the comparison?


Oh, wait, Discovery added an ability that seems to define what blindness is. So I guess it does actually have blindness mechanics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 11, 2019, 01:56:53 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on February 10, 2019, 09:13:00 pm

4. DO NOT MESS WITH TIME. You appear and steal the Existence Knife out of your own hands before vanishing. That was a close one. You will regain the knife only when you reach this part of your repaired future.

Hehe. Coincidentally my latest session of DnD involved my character doing some timey-whimey shit. I reappeared at a critical moment to shoot at an enemy before he could break an important thing. Unfortunately I chose to use ammo with an explosive radius, which destroyed the thing I was trying to protect. Fortunately that explosion actually caused a time anomaly which sent me back in time to just before I shot, allowing me to quickly change the magazine (of the gun that my earlier time-traveler self was holding) to a more normal ammo type, resulting in the enemy being hit by ice bullets before getting a chance to break the control panel.

This resulted in us being able to destroy the ancient dwarven facility cleanly rather than merely damaging it, which would allow infernal forces to eventually harness the power of the engine and take over the world. As a side effect now two additional time traveler copies of me exist in the world. Though the current version of me doesn't remember the whole time traveling thing and hasn't encountered the two extra copies because they managed to escape the facility unnoticed before we destroyed it.

As an additional side effect there are also two extra time copies of the "blood lotus" artifact that I was carrying in this timeline. Which could have implications because the blood lotus is important or something.


Anyway being a Chaotic Neutral Wild Magic Sorcerer is fun. Sure, most of my kit is only really applicable to blowing things up, but wild magic is theoretically capable of anything! Especially when standing next to an astoundingly powerful chaotic magic power source.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 12, 2019, 12:36:04 pm

I hate this industry. Adding another name to the short(er than it should be) list of people who may be finally getting what's coming, Zak S. The S stands for Smith or Sabbath depending on how he's feeling at any point in time.

Be careful if you resort to Googling his name - Zak Sabbath was his porn name and you probably don't want that popping up while you're at work or in front of family or something. Searching on RPG sites should result in this particular news item quickly revealing itself.

I'm not sure if bigger industries just cover this shit up super well or if assholes like that flock to RPGs because (massive generalization) we're all socially inept and don't know how/when to call people out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 12, 2019, 01:14:23 pm

Had no idea who the guy was, did a quick search, kinda wish I hadn't.

Huzzah for even more famous, influential people being absolutely detestable scum!


And the bigger industries really are just better at covering shit up and making things disappear. R. Kelly and Chris Brown are both still active and worshiped, off the top of my head.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 12, 2019, 02:27:01 pm

You sound as if you expect everyone to already know about it. What happened?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 12, 2019, 02:39:05 pm

Quote from: scriver on February 12, 2019, 02:27:01 pm

You sound as if you expect everyone to already know about it.

Given my warnings about Googling his name and how to find more info, no, I really didn't. What I expected was for people to do their own research. Because I can't say anything about him in an unbiased manner.

Quote

What happened?

People thought he was "just" a massive asshole online. Impersonated the previous owner of RPG.net on Reddit, had a trained attack group on Twitter (post a link to someone and the word "destroy", they go do their thing).

Turns out he's an even more massive asshole once you get to know him. Actually, massive asshole is putting it lightly.

https://rpggeek.com/thread/2148913/zak-s-accused-some-really-foul-behaviour-ex

And an answer for the implicit "who is he" question: He's the guy who ran the "Playing D&D with Porn Stars" podcast/stream/whatever. He's written several well-received (if a bit skeevy) supplements for Lamentations of the Flame Princess, itself slightly skeevy and well-received.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 12, 2019, 06:19:32 pm

.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 01:00:12 am

So, I'm not sure exactly how I want to handle this, considering how the last time it blew up a bit.

I sort of feel the above conversation is a bit outside of the thread's scope, and while it isn't version comparison or anything else I've straight up said isn't okay, I feel like it might be skirting that same territory of inflammatory things that are only tangentially related to PnP games.

If people are generally okay and don't make big multi-page discussions I'll just back down on these kinds of things, but I just wanted to try to let you guys know how I feel about these sort-of-PnP-but-not-really things.

Please, no one jump down anyone's throat, I'm only trying to feel out where the line between too harsh and just enough is.  And maybe my definition of tangentially related is wrong here, so let me know where you think this stands.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 04:21:37 am

I for one find this background info on the various authors of RPG content relevant and informative. After all, if you apply the techniques of critical literature analysis, it's necessary to acknowledge and interpret a written work through the lens of the author and their background when trying to understand the structure, narrative, and inherent value of the work.

I think so long as people are expressing their feelings about the author's work, not just venting hate at the author, it should be fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 04:29:33 am

Uhh, Jimmy, this thread isn't about literature and its interpretations, it's about cutting orcs to pieces with axes and figuring out the mechanics of letting players do that.

If people want to do the comparative lit stuff I'm not completely opposed, but that stuff can pretty easily veer into version comparison argument and the like.  I agree that if people aren't turning  such discussions into hate parades it's not problematic on it's own.

I just worry about letting things wander too far afield, I've seen and experienced some pretty apocalyptic arguments over what seems pretty innocuous at the table, including death threats from people holding knives.  That obviously colors my perception tho' and that's why I'm asking what people think.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 05:01:18 am

RPGs don't exist in a vacuum. They're actually great mediums to explore the same themes and concepts that shape the greatest of our literature. In fact, they're a treasure trove of platonic ideals, with a heavy mix of historical, modern and post-modern constructive filters.

To take your example of cutting orcs to pieces, we delve into the ideals of heroism versus violence, a struggle of good versus evil compared to divinely mandated genocide. The players get to collaboratively create their own narrative around this within the framework of the game's setting. Yet it also delivers opportunity to deconstruct that narrative. What if one of the players is an orc? What happens when the fighting orcs are dead and there's only baby orcs, elderly orcs and pregnant female orcs left?

I find it fascinating as a concept when you realize that RPG systems are not only stories in themselves, with all the lore and mechanics they contain, but also the belletristic womb that births stories for the players at the table, no two of which mature into the same organism even from the same basic genetic material. It's a living, breathing example of the core dichotomy existing within the transmission of meaning between author and reader.

I'd go so far as to argue that without the Apollonian and Dionysian dichotomy of rules and literary constructs, an RPG is simply a math system for use with random number generators. The mechanics aren't nearly as important as the people sitting at the table and the stories they create. That's not to say I don't love crunchy rules systems, but definitely give me one that also allows for the creation of a compelling narrative as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 05:04:22 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 05:01:18 am

RPGs don't exist in a vacuum.

Uhh, Spelljammer?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 05:16:07 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 05:04:22 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 05:01:18 am

RPGs don't exist in a vacuum.

Uhh, Spelljammer?

Not so! There are mentions of Spelljammer ports in Planescape AD&D materials. I see your spaceships from my multidimensional not!Victorian London.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 05:19:09 am

Jimmy, that some very expressive waxing on the subject, but again, this thread isn't really about the esoterics (unless people really think that's fine, right now I only have your opinion and mine on the subject), it's about methodology and the player/DM stories themselves.

I mean, what good does thematic dissection of the setting and methodology of storytelling used to portray it serve when the point isn't how the original writer conceived of the concepts but what you do with the provided material?

The argument certainly exists that creator intentions inform DM and player interpretation, and that argument has definite merit, however how does that factor into situation where the DM has radically restructured core setting elements and is only utilizing the mathematical framework as an interactive structure for their own distinct storytelling?  ( I do this a lot, like, a whole lot, I know that I am a relative minority in PnP in doing so.)

I get that allowing some level of that discussion can be beneficial, but where is the cutoff?  Do I allow discussion of the work itself and ask that outside factors be left out?  Do I allow authorial intent to be brought up and discussion of their personal motivations and beliefs?

I'm trying to figure out where the line should be to keep the thread from turning into a completely meandering mess, and I also know that what would be meandering to me might not be adequate exploration of the subject to someone else, so I'm looking for a tolerable medium based on people's perception of how far it should be allowed to stray.

So we can put Jimmy down as a solid "let the discussions of expanded matters run mostly free."

(edited for a little clarity)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 05:39:10 am

I agree! I'm running a radically restructured core setting game myself in my weekly Pathfinder Guards game. I take the official publications on the setting, in this case primarily the Guide to Absalom by Owen K.C. Stephens, but within this narrative framework I restructure the material to suit my table's needs.

Getting back to the original topic, I support commentary on author quality, since I personally have some favorites myself, and a good author can make all the difference when you're selecting a pregenerated campaign or even an entirely new game system.

For example, within the Pathfinder system, one of their freelance writers Thurston Hillman consistently outputs great quality modules. I make a point of picking his material when I have a choice of running one-shots or structured games compared to homebrew settings. He blogs on the subject of campaign writing, which I find useful for my own work as well.

I think the reputation of the author whose work you use in your games is important. Just like any good book, it's worth paying attention to the name on the cover!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 06:04:40 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 05:16:07 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 05:04:22 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 13, 2019, 05:01:18 am

RPGs don't exist in a vacuum.

Uhh, Spelljammer?

Not so! There are mentions of Spelljammer ports in Planescape AD&D materials. I see your spaceships from my multidimensional not!Victorian London.

But... they're in space.

Which is a vacuum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 06:08:07 am

You know, on the point of violence vs. heroism, it's kind of funny but I rarely run a game of D&D where killing is even common.  It happens but rarely is it as straight forward as: there is an orc, it is evil, kill it for xps.  Far more often my players end up fighting humans (or elves, maybe gnomes) with different goals to their own, not because they are evil.  They do sometimes come up against 'savage' humanoid enemies, but they only occasionally have to kill them, often they can disable a few key guards and sneak by.  Every once in a while tho' they'll have to unload on a large group of hostiles (often in the form of ambush) and there will be substantial bodycounts.  I tend to think of that as being more 'realities of conflict" than good or evil.  Sometimes those acts are good or evil, but that is rarely obvious to the players.

RIFTS, on the other hand, generally devolves into straight up overblown ultra-violence.  Eventually the collateral reaches idiotic levels and you just have to accept it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 13, 2019, 08:20:18 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 05:19:09 am

So we can put Jimmy down as a solid "let the discussions of expanded matters run mostly free."

You can put me down there as well. RPGs are not going to survive as a hobby if we don't acknowledge that they're created entirely by people, some of whom have overtly terrible intentions and many of whom are unknowingly writing things that can make people uncomfortable but all of whom benefit from the tacit endorsement provided by unwillingness on our part to examine the problems with their content, and we can't fully understand those problems, let alone how to do better, without a human context for those decisions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 08:51:31 am

Chris Fields, of course, is exclusively a force for good in the universe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 13, 2019, 09:16:34 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 08:51:31 am

Chris Fields, of course, is exclusively a force for good in the universe.

Furries and tentacles (and probably furry tentacles, or am I remembering HC SVNT instead?) are people too!

Also, completely distinct individual who is not this Chris Fields (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?author=Chris%20Fields). Now that I know about this "innovative dice-based tabletop roleplaying system that allows for an extensive range of character customization and personal choice", I may have to pick it up and see what it do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 09:23:52 am

Quote from: Mephisto on February 13, 2019, 09:16:34 am

Chris Fields (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?author=Chris%20Fields)

Dammit, I knew I should've included the "A for Abomination"... Curse you generically-named people and your shared names!

EDIT:

Quote from: Vexith RPG

Select your character’s species from one of 44 distinct choices

Holy fuck. First you had my attention, now you have my consternation.

EDIT2:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i63.tinypic.com/bepvk.jpg)
"Yes hello, I am a Normal Human Adventurer. Would you be so kind as to point me towards the nearest Normal Human Quest?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 13, 2019, 09:47:45 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 06:08:07 am

You know, on the point of violence vs. heroism, it's kind of funny but I rarely run a game of D&D where killing is even common.  It happens but rarely is it as straight forward as: there is an orc, it is evil, kill it for xps.  Far more often my players end up fighting humans (or elves, maybe gnomes) with different goals to their own, not because they are evil.  They do sometimes come up against 'savage' humanoid enemies, but they only occasionally have to kill them, often they can disable a few key guards and sneak by.  Every once in a while tho' they'll have to unload on a large group of hostiles (often in the form of ambush) and there will be substantial bodycounts.  I tend to think of that as being more 'realities of conflict" than good or evil.  Sometimes those acts are good or evil, but that is rarely obvious to the players.

RIFTS, on the other hand, generally devolves into straight up overblown ultra-violence.  Eventually the collateral reaches idiotic levels and you just have to accept it.

I wonder if removing gold as XP and NPC morale checks makes more killing in newer D&D than AD&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on February 13, 2019, 09:52:12 am

If you make it so that people get rewarded for killing, they'll kill people. If they get rewarded for not killing people, they won't kill people. It all depends on your reward structures. So, kinda yeah, but there's no need to set up a reward structure for killing in newer D&D either, although that is a basic assumption that has a lot of support built for it, the game also includes support for other reward structures.

If you make a gold as exp system in particular, the reward system becomes focused on whatever makes gold. If killing makes gold, the players will still kill a lot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 09:53:07 am

But what if killing people is just an inherently rewarding activity?

Asking for a friend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 13, 2019, 09:57:04 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 13, 2019, 09:47:45 am

I wonder if removing gold as XP and NPC morale checks makes more killing in newer D&D than AD&D.

I'd lean toward older games having a smidge more killing. I mean, at a certain point, they added "non weapon proficiencies." That implies that you're intended to do two things - combat and not-combat. And before those proficiencies, the "not-combat" bit was just DM fiat. So maybe there was more roleplaying and less mechanization. I wasn't around then so I can't really say.

But on the flip side, people nowadays may say "kill them and take their stuff". The phrase itself, however, has its origins in the depths of early RPGs. One of the characters from KotDT says "I loot the bodies" so much that it's basically his catchphrase.

Spoiler: Kagus SpiderMan (click to show/hide)

We've come full-circle. This a Numenera thread again. An official supplement has PC octopi; I'm sure there are PC spiders.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 13, 2019, 10:35:50 am

oh no were not talking about zak are we


But yes, removing gold for xp increases killing, in concert with the death of the True Megadungeon in favor of more linear experiences.  Swords and Wizardry (OD&D clone) generation averages about 75% of xp from treasure, its prudent to minimize combat.  True megadungeons also typically have a lot of strategic options in navigating the dingeon which gives the players plenty of room to avoid extra fights. 

Really there's a lot of things that encourage fighting, built into the systems.  I got in an argument on reddit over whether or not changing enemy stats behind the DM screen to make fights harder is railroading.  The idea that youre forcing the players to waste additional resources is completely lost on 5e players who dont have to manage them.   Doing that in OSR games is basically punishing the players for doing a good job, they cant chill in a cleared room and be good to go again.

Speaking of osr anybody played boot hill before?  Gygax made a western about the same time as D&D and the 3rd edition is back in print.  Great shootout mechanics and a fun minimalist campaign system, thinking about running an outlaw campaign for my irl group, i know they like westerns

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 13, 2019, 10:51:15 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 13, 2019, 10:35:50 am

oh no we're not talking about zak are we

Were. I news-dropped because I thought it was important. People can do with the info what they wish. I'm fine transitioning to talk about slaughtering elves and burning down their forests for the ecks-pees now.

Quote

Speaking of osr anybody played boot hill before?  Gygax made a western about the same time as D&D and the 3rd edition is back in print.  Great shootout mechanics and a fun minimalist campaign system, thinking about running an outlaw campaign for my irl group, i know they like westerns

The closest I've gotten to western-played-straight (meaning no funky stuff like Deadlands) is owning Aces and Eights. I'd be interested in how it goes, though. Is it basically D&D mechanics minus magic and funny ears plus ten gallon hats and whiskey?

---

Actually, I'll just go inform myself. I am incorrect. Editions 1 and 2 appear to be percentile systems, while 3 uses a d20-roll-under system, according to random internet people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 13, 2019, 10:56:29 am

Aces and 8s is very similar to boor hill 3e ive heard, with 6 second shootout turns divided into 1 second counts.

The campaign is old school, remember dnd started as a wargame.  The traditional campaign described in the book has a hex map of a fictional region in texas and people choose roles, usually outlaws and lawmen, and it's competitive, where the outlaws are trying to escape the map with 100,000 dollars and the lawmen have to catch the outlaws.  It sounds fun but is also sounds very complicated if you've got people in different parts of the map.   I will probably do something more modern but freeform, write up a bunch of org charts for gangs and organizations, flesh out the random generation tables, then do the old "what do you want to do next session" and prep something for them.  The game is minimalist enough it should be easy to just wing 90% especially with pregenerated npc factions, and ive got some ideas on how to generate racks of random npcs with excel

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 11:11:12 am

Can you build Bob Munden as a character?

Quote from: Mephisto on February 13, 2019, 09:57:04 am

Spoiler: Kagus SpiderMan (click to show/hide)

We've come full-circle. This a Numenera thread again. An official supplement has PC octopi; I'm sure there are PC spiders.

Octobook offers them as a PC race? That makes a bit more sense as to why they had a book dedicated to octopuses...


And on another note:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i68.tinypic.com/11kh7c1.jpg)

Even ignoring the fact that this is a 6' Hercules beetle that's wearing pauldrons, and that he probably doesn't have the manual dexterity or joint rotational range to actually put on any of the stuff he's got on his back (let alone access it for use)... Aren't those pouches the wrong way around?

...unless... unless he actually uses his hindmost legs to handle his abdomen like many beetles do, and as such accesses the pouches from behind before then sending the item up through the ranks of legs until it reaches his field of vision. This is meta.


Shit, I might have to pick up a copy for myself to see how insane this thing gets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 13, 2019, 11:51:08 am

Hehe, that brings back memories. One of the first games I played on these forums was as a giant bug called Boggotuarach. He was supposed to be able to telekinesis things around but he never got good at it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 13, 2019, 11:53:49 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 11:11:12 am

Can you build Bob Munden as a character?

Sure just give him 20 coordination, 6 pistol skill, and like 30 fast draw and he'll smoke anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 13, 2019, 12:00:01 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 13, 2019, 10:35:50 am

Speaking of osr anybody played boot hill before?  Gygax made a western about the same time as D&D and the 3rd edition is back in print.  Great shootout mechanics and a fun minimalist campaign system, thinking about running an outlaw campaign for my irl group, i know they like westerns

I've seen a copy of it at the local used bookstore once, didn't grab it and it disappeared.

Curiously the 1st ed AD&D dm guide had rules for converting to/from boot hill for... some reason I imagine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 13, 2019, 03:24:27 pm

Would you recommend either of those for a Space Western campaign? I’ve been asked to run something like that and I’m excited to try it, but I’ve got no system to go with. My original plan was to hack Dark Heresy for it since some of my players are already familiar with that, but now I’m looking at a group with RPG newbies as well and would prefer not to start them on the awkwardness of ’we’re playing this game but actually we’re just taking the mechanics, ignore almost everything from this rulebook I’m sending you’.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 13, 2019, 03:28:47 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on February 13, 2019, 03:24:27 pm

Would you recommend either of those for a Space Western campaign?

Well, there's the Way Out West for Deadlands, but it's weird even by Deadlands standards, so may not be the best for newbies.

If you have new people, maybe just use FATE or something?

EDIT: Actually, do you want a space opera Western or the Wild West with aliens and laser pistols and so forth?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 13, 2019, 03:48:08 pm

More like space opera western, not set on our Earth. Just a far future where there just happen to be oddly close historical parallels to the Wild West.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 13, 2019, 03:54:00 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on February 13, 2019, 03:48:08 pm

More like space opera western, not set on our Earth. Just a far future where there just happen to be oddly close historical parallels to the Wild West.

Well, in that case, there is the Firefly RPG, which is fairly rules-light.

The main divide here, I think, is going to be whether or not you want rules for space travel and/or vehicle combat; you can certainly tell a space Western with our without either, of course, but they will restrict your choice of system if you want built-in support for them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 13, 2019, 04:15:46 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 13, 2019, 09:23:52 am

Quote from: Vexith RPG

Select your character’s species from one of 44 distinct choices

Holy fuck. First you had my attention, now you have my consternation.

Jeez, only 44? How limiting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 07:42:13 pm

Okay, glad to see we're back to normal converstation.  Also, 44 distinct races not enough?  You guys should check out RIFTS and its world/dimension books, I haven't tallied ((because I don't have them all and Palladium has lost me as a customer) but I'm betting it's well past one hundred playable races.

Should I take it that as a group we're fine with letting discussions range into writers and their foibles?  I'd like to see at least one more aye or nay before I put up an addendum to the thread rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 13, 2019, 07:54:56 pm

Aye.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 13, 2019, 08:03:03 pm

Aye.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on February 13, 2019, 08:43:31 pm

I think it's conditionally fine; it does have the potential to get out of hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 13, 2019, 08:50:11 pm

Okay, new addendum, read it please and if you have anything to say about it say it now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 14, 2019, 12:30:44 am

In unrelated news, it looks like I'll be playing Call of Cthulhu with some of my regular D&D group this weekend. I'll be playing a 48 year old archaeologist from either Yorkshire or Liverpool (not nailed down, whichever accent I like better) who's good at punching and shooting pistols (and also some other skills that are less useful for archaeology) and has like 13% skill in photography (he's passionate about it but not very experienced).

Also, one of my D&D friends, when I mentioned possibly running a Stars Without Number cyberpunk oneshot, mentioned that he'd really be interested in a cyberpunk game that accurately captures the essence of William Gibson's Neuromancer. Not having read the book myself, does anyone know of a game that might work for this?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 14, 2019, 12:53:22 am

Quote from: Kadzar on February 14, 2019, 12:30:44 am

Also, one of my D&D friends, when I mentioned possibly running a Stars Without Number cyberpunk oneshot, mentioned that he'd really be interested in a cyberpunk game that accurately captures the essence of William Gibson's Neuromancer. Not having read the book myself, does anyone know of a game that might work for this?

Ex Machina, maybe, or TechNoir.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 17, 2019, 12:43:50 am

Quote from: Kadzar on February 14, 2019, 12:30:44 am

In unrelated news, it looks like I'll be playing Call of Cthulhu with some of my regular D&D group this weekend. I'll be playing a 48 year old archaeologist from either Yorkshire or Liverpool (not nailed down, whichever accent I like better) who's good at punching and shooting pistols (and also some other skills that are less useful for archaeology) and has like 13% skill in photography (he's passionate about it but not very experienced).

We played tonight, and I decided to make my guy Canadian in the end, calling him Vancouver Steve. Because the trait or whatever I rolled said I believe in science first and foremost, I decided that, even though he has a decent understanding of the occult, it's purely an academic understanding, and he doesn't really believe in the stuff.

So when his dying colleague asked him to go complete a ritual, he took the task on, not because he thought it would do anything, but as the dying wish of a friend. Then, because the ritual involve throwing some unknown powder into fire, he rationalized that the people who did the ritual originally were under the effect of some psychotropic drug, and that all the weird stuff that he saw when he did the ritual himself was just a drug-induced mass hallucination. And when he went to get the sample analyzed afterwards and they didn't know what it was, he concluded that it must be some exotic substance from South America or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 11:22:37 am

Technoir is pretty cool but I think in style is really more noir than tech.  I guess it depends on how the campaign is run on what you emphasize, but the rules are really designed to facilitate noir adventures in a high-tech setting.  Still a cool game, with a good emphasis on character interaction (rolls are exclusively used to put adjectives on other characters; e.g. if you jump across a rooftop there's no rolling for that unless you're trying to place a hesitant or maybe sprained ankle adjective on a pursuer)

Which is cool.  I might try to get my group into a game of it some time.  We play D&D exclusively but all of them say they're really more in it for characters than anything else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 17, 2019, 11:40:56 am

Are the adjectives chosen from a set, or can you go with whatever you want?

If the latter, why would anyone ever roll for applying any adjective to antagonists but "unsuccesful"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 12:00:47 pm

I think there's a list, but you're free to come up with logical adjectives, with the key word being logical.  The GM is allowed to challenge adjectives that don't make sense or are outside the scope of the action (and players are allowed to challenge the GM if he places an excessive or illogical adjective).  You can give dead to henchman-type characters on your first adjective, but tougher characters and players need a longer path to putting that adjective on them, and killing them puts them on the plot map (the main selling point of the game.  instead of adventures they publish "transmissions," which is some exposition about the adventure venue and a 6x6 grid of characters, locations, objects, factions, etc. and you generate the plot during play by rolling dice on that table, so even the GM is learning about the conspiracy as the game goes).  So you kill a corrupt cop but then he ends up on the plot map and connections are drawn, which creates new consequences for doing so.

Also because presumably everyone is interested in creating a fun story, not exploiting ambiguities in the rules to win automatically, and if that's what your players want to do you can shunt them off to the nearest pathfinder table.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 17, 2019, 02:03:57 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 11:22:37 am

Technoir is pretty cool but I think in style is really more noir than tech.  I guess it depends on how the campaign is run on what you emphasize, but the rules are really designed to facilitate noir adventures in a high-tech setting. 

That's kind of why I thought of it for Neuromancer over something like Cyberpunk 2020: it's partly just Gibson's characteristic brevity, but he doesn't dwell on the kind of flashy, bloodstained-chrome-reflecting-neon-lights-in-rain violence around which most well-known cyberpunk RPGs are built. To the extent that Neuromancer is a mystery story -- and I think that extent is gameable -- it, too, is more noir via tech than techno-thriller.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 17, 2019, 04:30:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 12:00:47 pm

I think there's a list, but you're free to come up with logical adjectives, with the key word being logical.  The GM is allowed to challenge adjectives that don't make sense or are outside the scope of the action (and players are allowed to challenge the GM if he places an excessive or illogical adjective).  You can give dead to henchman-type characters on your first adjective, but tougher characters and players need a longer path to putting that adjective on them, and killing them puts them on the plot map (the main selling point of the game.  instead of adventures they publish "transmissions," which is some exposition about the adventure venue and a 6x6 grid of characters, locations, objects, factions, etc. and you generate the plot during play by rolling dice on that table, so even the GM is learning about the conspiracy as the game goes).  So you kill a corrupt cop but then he ends up on the plot map and connections are drawn, which creates new consequences for doing so.

Also because presumably everyone is interested in creating a fun story, not exploiting ambiguities in the rules to win automatically, and if that's what your players want to do you can shunt them off to the nearest pathfinder table.

If they wanted a fun story they'd be reading books, not playing games.

I apply the the adjective "flummoxed" on Cthulhu

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 17, 2019, 04:39:26 pm

I'll play a chef and apply the fat adjective to any npc I encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on February 17, 2019, 05:06:35 pm

Fiasco is a wonderful little game for making stories with a slightly gamey elements. I really recommend giving that one a quick look up. Doesn't even need much of anything to be played.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 07:09:56 pm

Quote from: scriver on February 17, 2019, 04:30:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 12:00:47 pm

I think there's a list, but you're free to come up with logical adjectives, with the key word being logical.  The GM is allowed to challenge adjectives that don't make sense or are outside the scope of the action (and players are allowed to challenge the GM if he places an excessive or illogical adjective).  You can give dead to henchman-type characters on your first adjective, but tougher characters and players need a longer path to putting that adjective on them, and killing them puts them on the plot map (the main selling point of the game.  instead of adventures they publish "transmissions," which is some exposition about the adventure venue and a 6x6 grid of characters, locations, objects, factions, etc. and you generate the plot during play by rolling dice on that table, so even the GM is learning about the conspiracy as the game goes).  So you kill a corrupt cop but then he ends up on the plot map and connections are drawn, which creates new consequences for doing so.

Also because presumably everyone is interested in creating a fun story, not exploiting ambiguities in the rules to win automatically, and if that's what your players want to do you can shunt them off to the nearest pathfinder table.

If they wanted a fun story they'd be reading books, not playing games.

I apply the the adjective "flummoxed" on Cthulhu

Who hurt you, Scriver?  Who applied persistent "abused gamer syndrome" to you?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 17, 2019, 07:38:53 pm

In our efforts to find non-awful entertainment for my toddler throughout the day, we discovered that there are now eight seasons of My Little Pony on Netflix.

S6E17 is about D&D. It was pretty good. Thank you for your time. That is all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 17, 2019, 09:52:19 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 07:09:56 pm

Quote from: scriver on February 17, 2019, 04:30:17 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 17, 2019, 12:00:47 pm

I think there's a list, but you're free to come up with logical adjectives, with the key word being logical.  The GM is allowed to challenge adjectives that don't make sense or are outside the scope of the action (and players are allowed to challenge the GM if he places an excessive or illogical adjective).  You can give dead to henchman-type characters on your first adjective, but tougher characters and players need a longer path to putting that adjective on them, and killing them puts them on the plot map (the main selling point of the game.  instead of adventures they publish "transmissions," which is some exposition about the adventure venue and a 6x6 grid of characters, locations, objects, factions, etc. and you generate the plot during play by rolling dice on that table, so even the GM is learning about the conspiracy as the game goes).  So you kill a corrupt cop but then he ends up on the plot map and connections are drawn, which creates new consequences for doing so.

Also because presumably everyone is interested in creating a fun story, not exploiting ambiguities in the rules to win automatically, and if that's what your players want to do you can shunt them off to the nearest pathfinder table.

If they wanted a fun story they'd be reading books, not playing games.

I apply the the adjective "flummoxed" on Cthulhu

Who hurt you, Scriver?  Who applied persistent "abused gamer syndrome" to you?

I'd tell you, but somebody applied TOP SECRET to it

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 17, 2019, 04:39:26 pm

I'll play a chef and apply the fat adjective to any npc I encounter.

I love it

I'd play an Jeff Goldblum expy and constantly apply [star struck]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 18, 2019, 05:25:50 am

I'll play a 10-year-old and apply "stinky" to people, thereafter taunting and shaming them to death.

That or a sharp-eyed investigator who ruins every conflict by applying "illusory" to the enemy, indicating that they were never really in the fight to begin with and must be somewhere else.


Yeah, I'd say that the system seemed abusable, but there doesn't really seem to be much of a system to abuse in the first place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 18, 2019, 06:00:52 am

If we want we can get all existential on them and apply "zero-summed" to watch them disappear into nothingness!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on February 18, 2019, 06:03:37 am

wouldnt that only happen if they came into contact with their total value antipartner?


I mean, zero sum just means that "when all added together, the sum is zero."  It does not rule out local values other than zero, it just means that if there is a nonzero local value, all other values must combine to create the anti-value needed to cancel it out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 18, 2019, 06:17:01 am

A wild Dude appears!

Protag: "Righteous"

Righteous Dude: "Brah"

Righteous Dude shares his tall grass!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 18, 2019, 08:10:39 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 18, 2019, 05:25:50 am

Yeah, I'd say that the system seemed abusable, but there doesn't really seem to be much of a system to abuse in the first place.

Well, yeah, I can see how you'd think that, since you got all of one paragraph of system explanation before the shitposting started.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 18, 2019, 08:17:03 am

Narrative-heavy systems are not for everyone or every group. If you look at the game as a contest against the DM that you have to win, of course you’ll find ways to abuse it. You don’t have to force yourself to play these kind of games if they’re out of your comfort zone - I like DnD and crunchy RPGs a lot too, maybe more than narrativeish games, but I can dig both.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 18, 2019, 09:55:55 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on February 18, 2019, 08:17:03 am

Narrative-heavy systems are not for everyone or every group. If you look at the game as a contest against the DM that you have to win, of course you’ll find ways to abuse it. You don’t have to force yourself to play these kind of games if they’re out of your comfort zone - I like DnD and crunchy RPGs a lot too, maybe more than narrativeish games, but I can dig both.

True, though it's funny how people who dislike narrative games always assume an infinitely permissive GM and other players willing to go along with whatever nonsense they're proposing to "break the game." Yes, you can ignore all the parts of TechNoir that deal with the logic of using certain vectors for applying certain adjectives. You can also play Pun-Pun in D&D. Every system is ultimately an agreement between everyone at the table; if everyone wants to do stupid things, no rule is going to stop them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 18, 2019, 12:22:44 pm

Past. Listen. Maybe we're... joking around?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 27, 2019, 09:13:51 pm

Anyone want a $99 1000-page pdf? (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/267776/Invisible-Sun)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on February 27, 2019, 09:27:46 pm

Crikey. No. Hard pass, no.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 27, 2019, 09:44:55 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on February 27, 2019, 09:27:46 pm

Crikey. No. Hard pass, no.

But that's 10 cents per page!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on February 28, 2019, 12:53:45 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 27, 2019, 09:44:55 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on February 27, 2019, 09:27:46 pm

Crikey. No. Hard pass, no.

But that's 10 cents per page!

More pages doesn't necessarily mean more value, it typically just means worse editing. Especially if that's for the core system.

And since it's Monte Cook, it'll somehow manage to be bizarre without being interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 28, 2019, 04:53:38 am

It claims to be a roleplaying game of surreal fantasy, but the most surreal thing about it is the price. The description just seems kind of vague and unclear, with lots of goofy-sounding terms and nothing to really draw you in deeper. Is there a novel or two included in those thousand pages? I can’t imagine there being enough interesting content for all that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 28, 2019, 05:53:45 am

Skimmed the pictures.

Tentacles. Tentacles everywhere. Lady's umbrella? It's got tentacles. Hedge maze? Surprise: it's full of tentacles. Ghost? Tentacle feet. Dude sitting in a chair? You think it's tentacles, but actually it's snakes! Gotcha!

Bet there's a way to play a character that's composed of a statistically improbable percentage of tentacles.

Hey, what do tentacles and companies that charge $99 for PDFs have in common?

They've both got suckers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 28, 2019, 06:35:03 am

Quote from: Cruxador on February 28, 2019, 12:53:45 am

And since it's Monte Cook, it'll somehow manage to be bizarre without being interesting.

Having read the preview, that's more or less what we've got: it just throws weirdness at you until you go numb to it, then brags about how cool and surreal it is, but it never quite hits the mark because there's nothing normal to contrast it with. It's all so alien that it becomes boring -- and that's a huge problem in an RPG, because it means the players are deprived of common reference points to figure out what they can do in the game.

See, if you were to sit down at my table and I handed you a sheet and said "You're playing an archer. There's a dragon attacking the town you're in. What do you do?" you have at least some existing sense of what you can do; there's buildings to take cover in, the thing flies and breathes fire, and your best bet for fighting it is probably with a bow. It may not be clear mechanically how to take cover or draw a bow, but there's at least a clear starting point for what you might want to do in the narrative. If, on the other hand, I tell you you're playing a vislae who's had their vertula kada misaligned from their Crux Qualia by the !8'^_^'@#-287 [a dozen other new terms] you're going to need explanations of all of those before you can figure out if that's even good or bad, let alone what to do about it. That's going to suck up time like crazy, and the explanations here only raise more questions -- which sounds great, but it's still just me talking. There's no gameplay yet.

The up-front cost of playing this thing would be untenable in reading time even if it were free.

EDIT: Incidentally, the physical version costs $252. It has a statue in it. I have no earthly idea who needs 30 pounds of stuff to play an RPG. I also don't want to know who needs to spend $216 more to have a campaign written for them (well, "customized" for them.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 28, 2019, 02:08:42 pm

Hey, in a world where there are goblins, elves, dwarves, and kobolds, but humans don't exist, what words would they use instead of "humanoid", "humane", Etc?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 28, 2019, 02:34:07 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2019, 02:08:42 pm

Hey, in a world where there are goblins, elves, dwarves, and kobolds, but humans don't exist, what words would they use instead of "humanoid", "humane", Etc?

[race doing the classifying]oid, presumably. Elfoid, dwarfoid, etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 28, 2019, 02:37:11 pm

Or just say fuck it and use humanoid.
You're not playing the game in the same language as the characters are supposed to be speaking anyways, so you may as well use words you're familiar with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 28, 2019, 02:55:52 pm

Go up a taxonomic rank and call them primatoids? Or if you want a less scientific word for your fantasy setting inhabitants to use, maybe something like "thinking beings" or even just "folk"?

Edit: further ideas: "two-leggers", "ones who speak".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 28, 2019, 03:52:05 pm

Bipeds, if you wanna use something dumb and nonspecific. Or you could pull a Diogenes and call them plucked chickens.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on February 28, 2019, 04:07:34 pm

Folk or just people would be the obvious choices.  If you want to get sophisticated, sapients or sophonts are words you could use.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 28, 2019, 04:14:56 pm

Forbidden Lands calls most humanoids "kin". Works as well as anything else.

Note that, while kin means family, this does not necessarily mean that the races get along like they're related. Unless your family is particularly prone to violence, I suppose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 28, 2019, 04:15:43 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on February 28, 2019, 04:14:56 pm

Note that, while kin means family, this does not necessarily mean that the races get along like they're related. Unless your family is particularly prone to violence, I suppose.

Well, I mean... Whose isn't?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 28, 2019, 04:18:06 pm

I favor 'folk' as well as a term for all intelligent species. It sounds natural in a fantasy setting, unlike more sciencey words like 'sapients'. Kin (and Pillars of Eternity's 'kith') are also fair options. I wouldn't worry about the use of humanoid, humane and so forth too much, though - you can always assume that the characters are actually using some term in their own language that's just translated into ours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 28, 2019, 06:14:34 pm

Being a long-term Star Trek watcher, I've long ago made my peace with the term 'humanoid,' no matter how speciest it might be. Since I'm a human, and the source material was written by a (presumably) human, I have zero fucks to give about any slight against non-humanoid labeling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on February 28, 2019, 06:19:44 pm

Yeah just take the most common race and assume they have the academic power tbh. But not goblins. Goblinoids describes a buncha things already.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 28, 2019, 06:31:38 pm

A buncha things which basically all deserve to be counted as humanoid but arbitrarily aren't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 28, 2019, 06:37:16 pm

All goblinoids are humanoids but not all humanoids are goblinoids

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 28, 2019, 06:40:21 pm

Dragons control academia, but secretly. They have a working orthogonal knowledge of genetics and so termed "humanoid" because humans carry the most versatile genotype of the genus. They included dragonborn as humanoids for propaganda reasons.

The elves are furious, even if they don't know why. All of their resentment ultimately stems from events where dragons outdid them as the font of knowledge and culture.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on February 28, 2019, 06:53:02 pm

So one of our group decided to get a commission of our characters and it turned out rather swell. Behold, the... uh... Fam of Five, apparently. We don't tend to introduce ourselves, people just sort of recognize us on sight and immediately start groaning and sighing. The world never appreciates genius before it's gone.

The artist is Lakkapeliitta/Leprapotilas (https://www.deviantart.com/leprapotilas), all credit to them!

Spoiler: Behold! (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/c10ns8a.png?1)

From left to right:
-Miles Venture, noble son, layabout and sorcerer of no small collateral damage. Left his home city to flee his responsibilities and headed out into the wider world, only for us to almost immediately return to said city. Stands out for generally being nice, friendly and understanding in a party mostly composed of assholes. Generous with his trust and his money, but it all tends to work out in the end. Catchphrase: no real one; unconcerned half-smile?

-Ileryn, grumpy, aloof and all-around surly Elven arcane archer who hates all paladins with a burning passion. This causes some tension when there is, in fact, a paladin in the group. Getting backstory out of this guy takes effort, but is so rewarding. Recently took a side job behind the party's back to assassinate someone the party was trying to help; naturally nearly died in the city sewers to gelatinous cubes in a series of events which went down as one of my best tabletop experiences ever. Somehow survived despite being reduced to 1 HP, completing the mission against all odds, and never breathing a word to anyone else about it (meaning if he'd died, we'd never even have found his dissolved body!). Catchphrase: *angry glare*.

-Naella, ancient goddess of the sun imprisoned for millenia by the other gods and now trapped in a mortal body. We discovered this after finding her tomb and having paladins try to kill us - a bonding experience, though Flint and Augustus (below) remain a wee bit uneasy about all that. Trying to find her brother, god of the moon, also imprisoned by the gods. Hilariously ignorant/indifferent to most social norms and mortal foolishness. Probably will doom us all and the world if she gets what she wants - I mean, the gods probably knew what they were doing when they locked her up, but no, nobody ever listens to me... Catchphrase: 'These mortals are so stupid/uncivilized/prudish/etc'.

-Flint Hillhammer, poor Dwarven paladin tormented by constant nightmares courtesy of a god of nightmares. May have killed his mother and sister and all sorts of other nastiness besides. Made from a random-generated character idea by the DM (Dwarven Paladin from the Wastes with Daddy Issues). His father is a respected and powerful paladin, who appears to see his son as an useless layabout. Just trying to make the nightmares stop, with potentially disastrous consequences. Has formed a very close relationship with Augustus, a subject of much speculation by the rest of the group. Really, just tries to be friends with everyone, even the paladin-hating Ileryn. Catchphrase: 'Oh no... not again...'

-Augustus Krash-Raag, played by yours truly, Half-Orc barbarian actor with a flair for the dramatic and an... unclear moral compass. Joined a traveling theater group in his youth, tired of life in his savage tribe, and discovered a passion for the stage. Met the others after creative disagreements with his usual acting troupe and sort of just... stuck around. Harangued by the disapproving ghosts of his ancestors whenever he rages (aka, Path of the Ancestral Guardian). Very close with Flint, shares role as group matchmaker with Naella, and is the self-proclaimed Herald of Miles Venture, announcing his glorious return wherever we go in the city. Frequently makes suggestions of highly questionable morality - but always, he's 'merely jesting' - maybe. Has partaken in both human flesh and magic mushrooms during the course of this campaign. The trees were talking to him under the influence of the latter (and suggesting he try the former), so I'll prolly multi-class to druid soon. Apparently, a master tailor, relationship therapist and cook, since I keep rolling super high when I really don't need to. Catchphrase: 'I was merely jesting!'

Together, we blew up a mountain, solved a murder, failed to prevent a ship from blowing up while onboard, insulted high nobility to their face by accident, surfed on a literal slide of shit, and for our latest trick, unleashed 9000 ducks on a poor unsuspecting city through misuse of a magical artifact. Three people died, but those ducks will feed thousands and we are under siege, so all in all it balances out. The latest session ended with some rather intense inter-party conflict over the theft/reclamation of a pooossibly evil sword used to imprison Naella for millenia from her by Flint, and lots of ominous shit that followed. We're somehow supposed to save this city from an endless horde of undead, which must keep the city authorities up at night. We're all going to a gala next session, where shit will no doubt go down like it has never before. Fun times!

I really recommend getting commissions of your characters - it's great for the whole group for any kind of longer-running campaign. This one I feel captured the characters really well and it's certainly spiced up this campaign in itself. Now to buy ones of our other campaigns and characters, too...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on February 28, 2019, 06:53:51 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on February 28, 2019, 06:35:03 am

Quote from: Cruxador on February 28, 2019, 12:53:45 am

And since it's Monte Cook, it'll somehow manage to be bizarre without being interesting.

Having read the preview, that's more or less what we've got: it just throws weirdness at you until you go numb to it, then brags about how cool and surreal it is, but it never quite hits the mark because there's nothing normal to contrast it with. It's all so alien that it becomes boring -- and that's a huge problem in an RPG, because it means the players are deprived of common reference points to figure out what they can do in the game.

See, if you were to sit down at my table and I handed you a sheet and said "You're playing an archer. There's a dragon attacking the town you're in. What do you do?" you have at least some existing sense of what you can do; there's buildings to take cover in, the thing flies and breathes fire, and your best bet for fighting it is probably with a bow. It may not be clear mechanically how to take cover or draw a bow, but there's at least a clear starting point for what you might want to do in the narrative. If, on the other hand, I tell you you're playing a vislae who's had their vertula kada misaligned from their Crux Qualia by the !8'^_^'@#-287 [a dozen other new terms] you're going to need explanations of all of those before you can figure out if that's even good or bad, let alone what to do about it. That's going to suck up time like crazy, and the explanations here only raise more questions -- which sounds great, but it's still just me talking. There's no gameplay yet.

Yeah, this is pretty basic as principles of narrative design go. Throwing someone off the deep end is a very risky tool to begin with, and there needs to be relatable elements that resonate with the audience to form a foundation for deviation. Although in my opinion, Monte Cook's settings also have the issue that his changes and details just aren't that emotionally engaging to begin with. Like, I peaked at his "How to Play Invisible Sun" video (which takes twenty minutes to tell you anything about how to play Invisible Sun) and his path of suns concept is cool, the idea that the sun changes the nature of reality, but then he describes it and it's basically just planeshifting, and they're all generic, even from the first most foundational one sounds basically like just the city of Kekkai Sensen (Blood Blockade Battlefront) with the numbers filed off. And that was only ever supposed to be an almost cartoony backdrop to a very street level type story. Compare it to something like the Tattered Realms (Song of Swords setting) which is basically opposite; on the face of it, it's a medieval type setting but with elves and dwarves and stuff. And then you look at every detail and every detail is strange. From little things like the dwarves (They drink a lot. Why? Because it dulls the sound of the drums. What drums? The drums in the deep. The drums that call them to dig deeper and deeper, even setting aside food and sleep as they get deeper and it gets louder. Who plays those drums? Why does it pull the dwarves downward? How did dwarves get here in the first place, since they're not chaos and they're not offshoots of the basic human/elf race? Those are all questions to explore in play, all from the basic idea that dwarves drink a lot.) to the fact that the Sun, who is a god, takes a day off every month to hang out at his Ziggurat in the not!Roman empire with his paladins, who are saintly dudes that respawn and then his divine light isn't protecting the world and things can get in. Of course, that's a setting that was a labor of love for over half a decade, but still, something that's going to be heavily weird and interesting needs that solid foundation.

Quote

EDIT: Incidentally, the physical version costs $252. It has a statue in it. I have no earthly idea who needs 30 pounds of stuff to play an RPG. I also don't want to know who needs to spend $216 more to have a campaign written for them (well, "customized" for them.)

Yeah, it wouldn't be a terrible price if it was the pie in the sky collector's edition for people who want everything. But as the lowest level of potential buy-in, it's ridiculous. Even by the standards of board games it's ridiculous; that physical version is a hundred bucks over Gloomhaven, itself already criticized for a high cost at launch, and that gives you a similar number of tokens and bits of paper, and far more models and handouts, the only thing it has less of is required reading, since Monte Cook apparently couldn't sum his rules up in less than 600 pages. And that's for a board game, RPG players are accustomed to be able to buy in at a minimal level and spend on improving the experience or not as they go along.

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on February 28, 2019, 04:18:06 pm

Kin (and Pillars of Eternity's 'kith') are also fair options.

I don't really agree. Kin would normally refer to someone you can draw a clear line of blood to, not someone as distant as being a whole nother species, even if you share ancestry from a phylogenetic perspective. I guess it can be used in a metophorical sense ("that race is kin to ours" but that's the same way that you might refer to a country next to your own as a neighbor; it only makes sense in specific usage cases) and "kith" just means people you're close with in a non-blood sense, so if you have enemies or rivals of your same species, it wouldn't apply to them, and even in a sense of everyone banding together against the world, it really doesn't make sense to include all sapient races together in this regard. I like "folk", especially if there's some reason to contrast it to critters or inanimate things, but just going with "people" seems the most straightforward choice.

Quote from: Trekkin on February 28, 2019, 02:34:07 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2019, 02:08:42 pm

Hey, in a world where there are goblins, elves, dwarves, and kobolds, but humans don't exist, what words would they use instead of "humanoid", "humane", Etc?

[race doing the classifying]oid, presumably. Elfoid, dwarfoid, etc.

Seems a bit too close to slurry memery in my opinion. Words like "whiteoid" may mostly be used banter in real life but they're still edgy enough that I wouldn't be surprised to hear about people getting offended by them. It's also not that far from the old pseudo-biological classifications of "negroid" and "mongoloid", which have a more substantial history of discrimination.

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2019, 02:08:42 pm

Hey, in a world where there are goblins, elves, dwarves, and kobolds, but humans don't exist, what words would they use instead of "humanoid", "humane", Etc?

That's not what "humane" means. It means similar to humans specifically in the sense of having human decency or compassion, it which regard it is opposite to "bestial" or "animalistic" but perhaps most directly opposite to "ogrish". One of those common errors, like confusing "moral" with "morale".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 28, 2019, 07:57:12 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on February 28, 2019, 06:53:51 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on February 28, 2019, 04:18:06 pm

Kin (and Pillars of Eternity's 'kith') are also fair options.

I don't really agree. Kin would normally refer to someone you can draw a clear line of blood to, not someone as distant as being a whole nother species, even if you share ancestry from a phylogenetic perspective. I guess it can be used in a metophorical sense ("that race is kin to ours" but that's the same way that you might refer to a country next to your own as a neighbor; it only makes sense in specific usage cases)

It's not used in the sense of "that race is kin to ours", it's used in the sense of "those guys are kin to each other".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on February 28, 2019, 08:40:42 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on February 28, 2019, 06:53:51 pm

Seems a bit too close to slurry memery in my opinion. Words like "whiteoid" may mostly be used banter in real life but they're still edgy enough that I wouldn't be surprised to hear about people getting offended by them. It's also not that far from the old pseudo-biological classifications of "negroid" and "mongoloid", which have a more substantial history of discrimination.

That's certainly a concern. It doesn't strike me as particularly bad to say that, for example, in this humanless world the word for "has a head, two arms, two legs, etc." has its etymological roots in something that literally means "elf-shaped" or similar (thus, elves/dwarves/goblins/etc are all elfoid) but I'd certainly not extend that beyond one blanket term for all of them, like humanoid is.

Come to think of it, though, humans in a standard fantasy world probably wouldn't use humanoid either. Bimanual, maybe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 28, 2019, 09:20:11 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on February 28, 2019, 06:53:51 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2019, 02:08:42 pm

Hey, in a world where there are goblins, elves, dwarves, and kobolds, but humans don't exist, what words would they use instead of "humanoid", "humane", Etc?

That's not what "humane" means. It means similar to humans specifically in the sense of having human decency or compassion, it which regard it is opposite to "bestial" or "animalistic" but perhaps most directly opposite to "ogrish". One of those common errors, like confusing "moral" with "morale".

Yes... How did I cause you to think I did not know what humane meant? After all, you are right now admitting that it has roots in the word human, so why would a world without humans have that exact word?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 01, 2019, 12:45:42 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on February 28, 2019, 06:53:02 pm

Apparently, a master tailor, relationship therapist and cook, since I keep rolling super high when I really don't need to.

Oh yes, a fighter in a past campaign I played had this happen as well. Despite having only an average intelligence, she kept rolling twenties in all sorts of "lore" rolls, knowing intricate details about the many magical beasts we met in our journeys. The player wrote this in to her backstory by saying that she owned a creepy mask that only she could hear talking in her childhood and it told her "bedtime stories". Apparently, a hag had decided to be her godmother for Oghma knows what reason.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 02, 2019, 12:49:08 am

Hey, if he had a magical weapon, could a 20th level Path of the Zealot Barbarian lose against the Tarrasque? It seems to me, if the Tarrasque doesn't flee, the barbarian is guaranteed success.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 02, 2019, 02:37:10 am

You're going to have to explain that in detail. The Tarrasque can just grab the zealot in its mouth, reduce it to 0 HP in about 2 or 3 turns while forcing disadvantage on its every attack, then swallow it whole and wait for the rest of the minute until the rage ends and it dies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 02, 2019, 03:47:02 am

Except that you can start a new rage while raging, and a level 20 barbarian has unlimited rages.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 02, 2019, 03:57:35 am

So, the "So ANGRY! I HACK YOU ON INSIDE, STUPID DEAD MEAT HORROR! **I CUT WAY OUT!! WRAAAAR!!*" trope is totally applicable here?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 02, 2019, 04:11:00 am

Yep. He's blinded and restrained, so is suffering one or two levels of disadvantage on attacks, but he's not technically prevented from making attacks.

Tarrasque is immune to nonmagical weapons though, which means you're only dealing the zealot's bonus 1d6+10 radiant/necrotic damage per turn on a successful hit, which means you're gonna be in there for a while unless you managed to sneak a magic dagger in there with you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 02, 2019, 04:42:22 am

Here's the loophole to that:

"Intrigued by this seemingly-infinite source of delicious blood, but annoyed by your pointy stick, the Tarrasque decides to subdue you for further study. It plinks you with its massive claw. As it reduces you to 0 hit points, it decides to knock you out. As you fall unconscious, your rage ends just before the Tarrasque strikes another curious claw into you..."

Quote from: Zealot rules

While you're raging, having 0 hit points doesn't knock you unconscious.

Quote from: Damage rules

If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious.
--
When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. -- The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

The former is a state-based effect, the latter is a move by an actor. The real question is whether or not the Tarrasque is intelligent enough and not too rage-filled to consider dealing a knockout.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 02, 2019, 04:53:58 am

OR, it one-shot kills in the initial bite phase... (putting said barbarian into negative HP in one strike, causing unconsiousness and then death by bleed out upon ingestion)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 02, 2019, 05:32:05 am

Well, sure, but a level 20 barbarian with natural constitution of 16 and no racial/feat benefits would have an average of (12 + (7x19) + (5x20)) 245 hitpoints.

The Tarrasque's bite deals 4d12+10, so even on a maxed crit they wouldn't be able to deal nearly enough damage to instakill the barb.


Unless you meant just reducing them to "below zero, but not instakill" hitpoints? Which I don't think is a thing. Might be wrong on that, I haven't been fiddling with 5e much. So long as the barbarian is raging beforehand (which, RAW, they should technically be able to spend all day every day in a state of permanent rage), there's not much outside of funny special effects (like a certain level 1 spell) that can put them down.

Quote from: IcyTea31 on March 02, 2019, 04:42:22 am

loophole

The loophole to that loophole is to have a friendly deal the "killing" blow on you, reducing you to 0 hitpoints before the Tarrasque can. Because this is a sensible system.


The really fun part? Even if the Tarrasque DOES manage to annihilate the barbarian in some way, your level 20 cleric/druid/whatever can cast True Resurrection and rebuild them from scratch without having to pay the 25,000GP diamond dust expense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 02, 2019, 05:35:38 am

There's no negative HP in 5e, and bleedout is done via death saves, which the zealot ability also protects against. To perform a one-hit-kill, you need to deal the character's remaining health plus their maximum health in a single attack, otherwise they just drop to 0. Which is unlikely for a 20th level barbarian with 12+19d12+20*Con health, with a maximum Con bonus of 7. That's around 275 HP on average. The Tarrasque's most powerful attack can deal 116 damage on a critical hit with maxed dice, so it's not possible (the multiattack can deal more than that, but it must be a single attack to count for massive damage)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 02, 2019, 08:56:42 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on March 02, 2019, 04:42:22 am

Here's the loophole to that:

"Intrigued by this seemingly-infinite source of delicious blood, but annoyed by your pointy stick, the Tarrasque decides to subdue you for further study. It plinks you with its massive claw. As it reduces you to 0 hit points, it decides to knock you out. As you fall unconscious, your rage ends just before the Tarrasque strikes another curious claw into you..."

Quote from: Zealot rules

While you're raging, having 0 hit points doesn't knock you unconscious.

Quote from: Damage rules

If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious.
--
When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. -- The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

The former is a state-based effect, the latter is a move by an actor. The real question is whether or not the Tarrasque is intelligent enough and not too rage-filled to consider dealing a knockout.

I am pretty sure the Tarrasque would be too rage-filled for that. Also, I don't see how that is a loop hole. Both of those are dependent on having 0 hit points being able to knock you unconscious, which they can't do to the zealot. This just seems like munchinistic examination of the wording of rules, but in the other direction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 02, 2019, 09:14:07 am

You know, you make his "weapon" be some enchanted dentures (because barbarian, and totally cliche bad hygiene + being old at lv20+, and being successful enough to afford a "Real quality elven set" could TOTALLY be a thing here), and this has Green Text Pages written all over it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 02, 2019, 09:21:52 am

Is that a reference to Discworld? Also what are Green Text Pages?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 02, 2019, 09:34:32 am

I was going to ask if the goal was to annoy your god enough that they just provide a free wish to get rid of the tarrasque but I now see that the 5e rasque doesn't have that little clause. This sucks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 02, 2019, 10:11:43 am

Green Text as in, the "I told a story" type pages seen on Reddit and pals.  It commonly gets used to tell interesting yarns from tabletop RPGs, and this would be a very interesting one indeed.


Example:
https://imgur.com/gallery/eJCr7

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 02, 2019, 10:16:08 am

Greentexts are specifically a 4chan thing, the subreddit mostly just reposts ones from 4chan or follows the format defined by them.

It's a source of no small animosity; named accounts reposting someone else's anonymous telling of a story for the sake of points and social kudos. But I can't really complain, I tend to prefer keeping one or two degrees of separation between myself and 4chan anyways...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 02, 2019, 12:40:58 pm

Quote from: wierd on March 02, 2019, 10:11:43 am

Green Text as in, the "I told a story" type pages seen on Reddit and pals.  It commonly gets used to tell interesting yarns from tabletop RPGs, and this would be a very interesting one indeed.


Example:
https://imgur.com/gallery/eJCr7

In addition to what Kagus said, most of those stories aren't even in a greentext format.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 02, 2019, 12:45:28 pm

Picky picky.

The actual point was not the green text nature, but that it was a story one would expect to find in such a venue.  Focus people, focus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 02, 2019, 01:08:22 pm

Quote from: wierd on March 02, 2019, 12:45:28 pm

Picky picky.

The actual point was not the green text nature, but that it was a story one would expect to find in such a venue.  Focus people, focus.

You might as well just say "it'd make a good story". It would. An epic barbarian biting his way out of a tarrasque would be a great story, if told well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: LordPorkins on March 02, 2019, 06:12:16 pm

Here’s a good discussion prompt: What’re some of favorite one-liners you or your group memebers have spouted?

Mine would probably be:

“Gee, thanks, but I’d rather not be in the employ of the god of the MENSTRUAL CYCLE”

-My Lawful Evil Warlock, after being offered a position at the side of the BBEG who was attempting to become the god of blood. I was very quickly focused down in the ensuing fight.

Or maybe:

“My Cleric can beat up your Cleric”

-Me, a War Cleric, to the Healbot Cleric’s player.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 02, 2019, 06:16:15 pm

"Okay, character's finished. When are we doing the first session?"

The final words spoken in pretty much every campaign I've been in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 02, 2019, 07:04:16 pm

I can't think of any good one-liners.  The funniest thing that's happened so far is probably when one player was trying to be serious and get some information at the tavern while the thief kept passing me notes saying he was sneaking up on the guy to murder him

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on March 02, 2019, 11:09:39 pm

Yeah, RPGs don't really lend themselves to one-liner humor; it tends to just devolve into "lol we're so random" style absurdity without context.

In other news, I got a chance to run Pathfinder for two different groups over the course of the last two weeks, and apparently my usual group's nonviolent tendancies are partly my doing because both groups took about three fights each to decide they didn't want to hurt things anymore and resort instead to diplomancy variously backed up by illusory weapons, traps, and/or saps alongside a growing cadre of allies. It seems like I can't run anything else and nobody really wants me to.

In light of that, I'm trying to find better systems to run diplo-heavy games that don't take the lazy way out and run negotiation like combat, because it's really not. All Clausewitz quotes aside, running diplomacy with RPG combat rules tends to presuppose things about the mutual exclusivity of everyone's goals that can frustrate attempts to model things like multilateral negotiations or misconceptions. Haggling can be satisfactorily represented as a duel, but probably not legislation; even things that explicitly model the ZOPA tend to assume a continuous spectrum between mutexed BATNAs.

I'm hoping not to have to build my own, but it's looking increasingly likely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 02, 2019, 11:28:03 pm

I hate swingy combat. Four hero dudes VS. 10 veggie bois. 45 minutes later, they're all dead. Every roll was sub 10, except for my one 18 in the previous fight that missed because AC 20 lel.

Every hit took a vegeboi down, but the hits were few and far between.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 03, 2019, 01:56:07 am

At that point, you're supposed to execute a die as a warning to others.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 03, 2019, 04:37:09 am

Were it the hero dudes or the veggies that died?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on March 03, 2019, 08:21:21 am

I've got a character concept rolling around in my head that I felt like jotting down.

Basically I wanted to create as close to a stereotypically Canadian 'nice guy' as I can. I figure a Lawful Good something or other with a habit of dressing in red check flannelette shirts, whose father is a lumberjack 'up north,' who cooks treats for the party such as pancakes and bacon for breakfast, apologizes regularly for inconveniencing people, and constantly ends his sentences in 'eh?'

I think that'd be a fun stereotype to explore in an RPG.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 03, 2019, 08:28:00 am

Convince the other players to play other Commonwealth stereotypes. The British gentleman who insists on drinking tea at set times, the Australian Stewe Irwin expy, the New Zealander who brings a flock of sheep to the dungeon...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 03, 2019, 08:39:10 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 03, 2019, 08:21:21 am

I've got a character concept rolling around in my head that I felt like jotting down.

Basically I wanted to create as close to a stereotypically Canadian 'nice guy' as I can. I figure a Lawful Good something or other with a habit of dressing in red check flannelette shirts, whose father is a lumberjack 'up north,' who cooks treats for the party such as pancakes and bacon for breakfast, apologizes regularly for inconveniencing people, and constantly ends his sentences in 'eh?'

I think that'd be a fun stereotype to explore in an RPG.

Characters who are unfailingly friendly and polite even to the villains and monsters are always fun. Just because they're being right nasty doesn't mean you have to sink to their level, after all. Even if you end up killing them like your average murderous adventurer, you can at least apologize for it in advance.

I'm fond of an Ultimate Lawman character idea - a Lawful Neutral officer who will place ancient black dragons under arrest and politely request them to come peacefully and the like. In a somewhat sinister spin, their creed is all about following and adapting to the laws of the land, so they might liberate slaves in one abolitionist kingdom only to enslave them right back again if they crossed into the lands of a tyrannical and evil slaver empire. In actual play I can see a lot of problems and too much inter-party conflict from something like that, so I'd prolly make them a bit more flexible in the end.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 03, 2019, 08:42:14 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on March 03, 2019, 08:39:10 am

In a somewhat sinister spin, their creed is all about following and adapting to the laws of the land, so they might liberate slaves in one abolitionist kingdom only to enslave them right back again if they crossed into the lands of a tyrannical and evil slaver empire.

Be warned, that alignment is also known as Lawful Stupid and may lead to the other players (not characters) yelling at you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 08:48:37 am

So, it looks like the dnd5e.fandom wiki got purged of content. All SCAG, Mordenkainen, Volo etc. stuff has been stripped out, same for any Unearthed Arcana. Ah well. The affected pages have also been locked to sysop privileges, to prevent anyone from adding those things back in. Actually even more than that, as there's now only one "kit" per class still listed, all the others have been removed despite appearing in the core book.

Ah well. I guess there's been a bit more cracking down on copyright stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 03, 2019, 08:50:25 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on March 03, 2019, 08:42:14 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on March 03, 2019, 08:39:10 am

In a somewhat sinister spin, their creed is all about following and adapting to the laws of the land, so they might liberate slaves in one abolitionist kingdom only to enslave them right back again if they crossed into the lands of a tyrannical and evil slaver empire.

Be warned, that alignment is also known as Lawful Stupid and may lead to the other players (not characters) yelling at you.

That's rather why I said I couldn't actually play them like that, no? It'd be the basis of their religious creed/philosophy, but actually fully adhering to it rather than their moral compass would be unlikely. One can always find a justification ('the law here is unjust and totes illegitimate, so it should not be obeyed') to interpret their own code differently. Mainly I'm just fond of the idea of ballsily walking up to dragons and BBEG's and telling them they're under arrest, have a right to remain silent, et cetera. Even if it inevitably always fails.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 03, 2019, 09:30:39 am

Quote from: scriver on March 03, 2019, 04:37:09 am

Were it the hero dudes or the veggies that died?

Veggies, thankfully. They couldn't hit shit. Except for my rogue.

Quote

about dice sacrifice

Online game. First, we have to convince the GM to burn his computer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 10:22:39 am

As an aside, from earlier:

Quote from: wierd on March 02, 2019, 10:11:43 am

https://imgur.com/gallery/eJCr7

Just got to the imaginative dramatization of Sir Pratchett's final days. No thank you good man, I am not reading that right now. I cannot schedule such feelings at the moment.

Fuck you and good day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on March 03, 2019, 10:44:08 am

Quote from: LordPorkins on March 02, 2019, 06:12:16 pm

Here’s a good discussion prompt: What’re some of favorite one-liners you or your group memebers have spouted?

Mine would probably be:

“Gee, thanks, but I’d rather not be in the employ of the god of the MENSTRUAL CYCLE”

-My Lawful Evil Warlock, after being offered a position at the side of the BBEG who was attempting to become the god of blood. I was very quickly focused down in the ensuing fight.

Or maybe:

“My Cleric can beat up your Cleric”

-Me, a War Cleric, to the Healbot Cleric’s player.

"Kneel before Father Ilymic!" (Spelling?)
*zaps me for 90 damage*
*I still have 30up left*
"No. YOU KNEEL!"
*deal 130~ damage to the squishy psion bad guy*

-I was a half Celestial Afflicted Werebear Paladin 6/Hellreaver 3 wielding Exordius

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 03, 2019, 05:33:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 08:48:37 am

Actually even more than that, as there's now only one "kit" per class still listed, all the others have been removed despite appearing in the core book.

Ah well. I guess there's been a bit more cracking down on copyright stuff.

That's because there's only one subclass per class in the 5e Open Gaming License.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on March 03, 2019, 05:46:35 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on March 02, 2019, 11:28:03 pm

I hate swingy combat. Four hero dudes VS. 10 veggie bois. 45 minutes later, they're all dead. Every roll was sub 10, except for my one 18 in the previous fight that missed because AC 20 lel.

Every hit took a vegeboi down, but the hits were few and far between.

How low is your attack bonus that you can't hit a 20 on a roll of 18? Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Quote from: Jimmy on March 03, 2019, 08:21:21 am

I've got a character concept rolling around in my head that I felt like jotting down.

Basically I wanted to create as close to a stereotypically Canadian 'nice guy' as I can. I figure a Lawful Good something or other with a habit of dressing in red check flannelette shirts, whose father is a lumberjack 'up north,' who cooks treats for the party such as pancakes and bacon for breakfast, apologizes regularly for inconveniencing people, and constantly ends his sentences in 'eh?'

I think that'd be a fun stereotype to explore in an RPG.

Adam Koebel (an actual Canadian and co-creator of Dungeon World) basically played that character in a Dungeon World one-shot last Christmas (https://youtu.be/MgWbDhgOt0g).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 03, 2019, 07:22:59 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on March 03, 2019, 05:46:35 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on March 02, 2019, 11:28:03 pm

I hate swingy combat. Four hero dudes VS. 10 veggie bois. 45 minutes later, they're all dead. Every roll was sub 10, except for my one 18 in the previous fight that missed because AC 20 lel.

Every hit took a vegeboi down, but the hits were few and far between.

How low is your attack bonus that you can't hit a 20 on a roll of 18? Sounds like a personal problem to me.

18 total, sorry. So really, it was probably a roll of 12 or 13.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 04, 2019, 05:59:57 pm

Just look at this gloriousness. (https://imgur.com/t/dungeons_and_dragons/piRqAyg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 04, 2019, 07:27:53 pm

That's awesomegreats, but wouldn't it be hard for the player to read the dice after swallowing?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 04, 2019, 09:25:27 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 04, 2019, 07:27:53 pm

That's awesomegreats, but wouldn't it be hard for the player to read the dice after swallowing?

Come back in 6-8 hours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 04, 2019, 09:27:44 pm

Must be a play-by-post thing.

Edit: Unrelated, I like that my group draws from a deck of critfail cards despite playing online.  I think we videoshared the draw like once, now we just believe the GM like with everything else.  And yet we still get excited for the draw we can't see XD

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on March 05, 2019, 05:33:26 am

What do you use to play online? I know you can make custom decks of cards in roll20, which I've seen used in a few games. One of the features I wish maptools had.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 05, 2019, 07:44:29 am

We use roll20, and yeah we've played with the card system for funsies.  Particularly when the GM is busy with something.
A friend (who implemented the Edge of the Empire dice for us) confirmed that the deck *can* be edited, but ehhh.  Roll20 totally cheats :P  We'd rather trust our GM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: LordPorkins on March 05, 2019, 09:02:08 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 05, 2019, 07:44:29 am

trust our GM.

Im sorry, what did you just say? I'm afraid I don't understand this random collection of letters in that post.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 06, 2019, 12:03:34 am

If I was gonna play D&D online it'd probably be over tabletop simulator and voice-only.  Anything else is just not the same.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 08, 2019, 11:17:01 am

Druids are just animal changelings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 12:33:47 pm

Changelings are just humanoid druids.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on March 08, 2019, 01:31:30 pm

Changeling druids are humanoids just with identity issues.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 08, 2019, 01:33:27 pm

Question. Can druids shapechanve into say elves or dwarves?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 01:36:12 pm

Do you mean the 9th level spell Shapechange? If so, yes.
If you mean Wild Shape, not as far as I know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on March 08, 2019, 01:39:05 pm

As far as I know, no, since they have to turn into a type of Beast, which is in turn a type of Monster. Humanoids are a different type entirely. Shapechanging is indeed the game breaker though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 01:43:16 pm

Hey, that reminds me, can a True-Polymorphed person use the Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions of his new form?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 08, 2019, 01:46:03 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 01:43:16 pm

Hey, that reminds me, can a True-Polymorphed person use the Legendary Resistance, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions of his new form?

No

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 01:47:37 pm

If you use the sorcerer's Twinned Spell when casting True Polymorph, are both of them turned into the same thing, or could you turn yourself into a red abishai and someone else into a ancient white dragon?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 08, 2019, 01:48:01 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 08, 2019, 01:33:27 pm

Question. Can druids shapechanve into say elves or dwarves?

In 3.5 at least (dunno about 5e druids), no.  Wild shape only includes animals (and eventually, elementals).  And in DND terms humanoids are not animals :P  I kinda bet there's a splat-book solution, though, since I'm pretty sure Book of Exalted Deeds puts some magical beasts on the list (with a feat).

Oddly there *is* a 13th-level Druid class feature which addresses this shapechanging nature:  A Thousand Faces (su).  It acts as at-will Disguise Self, except that it's physical instead of merely visual.

But Disguise Self (a level 1 spell) is very limited:

Quote

You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

I'm not entirely sure what they mean by "body type" there, considering what is specifically allowed, but it's probably "race".  In the DND sense- I assume you can change skin color.  It seems like an odd restriction on a spell which physically morphs your entire body *and your equipment*, that you can't extend your ears a bit, but w/e.  I have to wonder whether gender is considered "body type" too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 08, 2019, 02:10:50 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 08, 2019, 01:48:01 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 08, 2019, 01:33:27 pm

Question. Can druids shapechanve into say elves or dwarves?

In 3.5 at least (dunno about 5e druids), no.  Wild shape only includes animals (and eventually, elementals).  And in DND terms humanoids are not animals :P  I kinda bet there's a splat-book solution, though, since I'm pretty sure Book of Exalted Deeds puts some magical beasts on the list (with a feat).

Lords of madness also had a feat to add abberations to your available wildshapes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 08, 2019, 02:16:44 pm

At last! "I assume my flumph form."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 02:29:22 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 08, 2019, 01:48:01 pm

3.5 stuff

5e is similar for most of this, at least with Circle of the Moon subclass Druids. Except in 5e its Alter Self instead of Disguise Self and they get it at 14th level.

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 01:47:37 pm

If you use the sorcerer's Twinned Spell when casting True Polymorph, are both of them turned into the same thing, or could you turn yourself into a red abishai and someone else into a ancient white dragon?

I'd imagine so, but your minimum level is 20 to be able to do that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on March 08, 2019, 02:49:05 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 02:29:22 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 01:47:37 pm

If you use the sorcerer's Twinned Spell when casting True Polymorph, are both of them turned into the same thing, or could you turn yourself into a red abishai and someone else into a ancient white dragon?

I'd imagine so, but your minimum level is 20 to be able to do that.

Technically, only your targets need to be that level. You just need to be 17th level (and it's possible the abishai only needs to be 19th).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on March 08, 2019, 02:54:41 pm

I would personally rule that the same spell can't have two different effects if it's twinned, but I've got the feeling this an edge case that doesn't pop up very often.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on March 08, 2019, 03:13:30 pm

If someone's casting Twinned True Polymorph, the question of what they can do is essentially moot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 08, 2019, 03:18:53 pm

Well yeah, polymorph does a transformation. That's the "what" right there.  The question is if the elective choice of what to transform them into is available for the second target.

I'm a bit of a douche.  If it were my game, I would say "Sure, it can have a different effect than the first, primary casting-- but the result is random. Enjoy."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 03:50:59 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on March 08, 2019, 02:49:05 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 02:29:22 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 08, 2019, 01:47:37 pm

If you use the sorcerer's Twinned Spell when casting True Polymorph, are both of them turned into the same thing, or could you turn yourself into a red abishai and someone else into a ancient white dragon?

I'd imagine so, but your minimum level is 20 to be able to do that.

Technically, only your targets need to be that level. You just need to be 17th level (and it's possible the abishai only needs to be 19th).

True Polymorph is not a Sorcerer spell, so you need to go 3 levels into Sorcerer and then 17 into Bard or Wizard to Twin it. You'll also have to give up some spell slots to have the sorcery points to do it.

Quote from: birdy51 on March 08, 2019, 02:54:41 pm

I would personally rule that the same spell can't have two different effects if it's twinned, but I've got the feeling this an edge case that doesn't pop up very often.

So if a sorcerer twinned Chromatic Orb, you would rule they had to do the same type of damage on both targets? Its your table, but I don't really see what the benefit of doing that is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 08, 2019, 03:57:22 pm

IIRC, Chromatic (everythings) are random in their effects...  There being different effects for 2 targets is kinda expected.  Polymorph requires the caster to make a choice in the outcome, which chromatic (anythings) do not.

This would be more on par with say, a psion's energy ray attack.  The psion specifies what kind of energy the ray deals at the time of preparation/projection.  Allowing there to be two targets (and yes I know this would not even apply to a psion to begin with, this is just for illustrative purposes)-- Does this mean they can choose a new energy type for the second ray, or do they have to make do with a single energy type, put on two targets?

That's the real question here. Can they make two elective choices, with 2 targets-- OR-- must they make a single choice, applied to both targets?

Again, if it were my table, I would take option 2- with the CHOICE from the player:

"Either the same effect for both, or permit the second bolt to be chaotic and uncontrolled, with random effects."  This would be equally applicable to the afore mentioned energy ray attack; Second beam is uncontrolled, and with unknown properties other than being an energy ray.  Except here, it is an uncontrolled polymorph bolt, that will induce a random level appropriate transformation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 08, 2019, 04:00:46 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 03:50:59 pm

True Polymorph is not a Sorcerer spell, so you need to go 3 levels into Sorcerer and then 17 into Bard or Wizard to Twin it. You'll also have to give up some spell slots to have the sorcery points to do it.

The way that gaining wizard spells is worded is that your first wizard level gets you a bunch of 1st level spells, and every level after you can gain 2 new wizard spells that you have spell slots for. So all you really need is 17 total levels in pure caster classes, at least 3 of which are in sorcerer and 2 of which are in wizard.
So go ahead and have 12 levels in cleric and cast a twinned True Polymorph. It's all good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 04:13:18 pm

Quote from: wierd on March 08, 2019, 03:57:22 pm

IIRC, Chromatic (everythings) are random in their effects...  There being different effects for 2 targets is kinda expected.  Polymorph requires the caster to make a choice in the outcome, which chromatic (anythings) do not.

That's the real question here. Can they make two elective choices, with 2 targets-- OR-- must they make a single choice, applied to both targets?

Chromatic Orb specifies that the caster choose the damage in 5e. It may have done something different in other editions though.

As for the real question here. My answer is that the rules just say that a twinned spell can target a second creature with the same spell. It doesn't say anything about making the same choice for both targets, just that the spell has to be the same. A quick google search indicates that the game designer agrees with that interpretation. If you rule that differently at your table that's fine, your random effect idea would certainly be cool and appropriate to a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but the rules don't forbid two elective choices.

Quote from: Egan_BW on March 08, 2019, 04:00:46 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 03:50:59 pm

True Polymorph is not a Sorcerer spell, so you need to go 3 levels into Sorcerer and then 17 into Bard or Wizard to Twin it. You'll also have to give up some spell slots to have the sorcery points to do it.

The way that gaining wizard spells is worded is that your first wizard level gets you a bunch of 1st level spells, and every level after you can gain 2 new wizard spells that you have spell slots for. So all you really need is 17 total levels in pure caster classes, at least 3 of which are in sorcerer and 2 of which are in wizard.
So go ahead and have 12 levels in cleric and cast a twinned True Polymorph. It's all good.

The multiclassing rules beg to differ and specifically rule that out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on March 08, 2019, 04:23:45 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 04:13:18 pm

A quick google search indicates that the game designer agrees with that interpretation.

Can you link to this? I agree with your interpretation but my googling failed to find something quickly (and I don't really have time to keep looking)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 04:41:25 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on March 08, 2019, 04:23:45 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on March 08, 2019, 04:13:18 pm

A quick google search indicates that the game designer agrees with that interpretation.

Can you link to this? I agree with your interpretation but my googling failed to find something quickly (and I don't really have time to keep looking)

Here you go (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/28/twinned-spell-chromatic-orb-can-you-pick-another-damage-type-for-2nd-target/). I found it by looking up the chromatic orb example, which is probably why you couldn't find it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 08, 2019, 07:48:54 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 08, 2019, 01:48:01 pm

Quote

You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

I'm not entirely sure what they mean by "body type" there, considering what is specifically allowed, but it's probably "race".  In the DND sense- I assume you can change skin color.  It seems like an odd restriction on a spell which physically morphs your entire body *and your equipment*, that you can't extend your ears a bit, but w/e.  I have to wonder whether gender is considered "body type" too.

My first thought was humanoid/amount of limbs and placement of them for what that would mean. So you can't transform into like a centaur.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 08, 2019, 08:54:25 pm

That sounds reasonable to me.  In which case some humans could very reasonably disguise as a dwarf with the spell (or ability).  Male dwarves (3.5) are 3'11" to 4'5", female humans are 4'7" to 6'1".  That's an average of 5'4, and the spell allows shrinking by a foot, so about half of human women could shrink to dwarf height.  Human males are 5" taller, which lowers the odds a lot.

Interestingly elves average 5'0" independent of gender (hints at the 5e genderfluid Corallon?) which is 4" shorter than the average for human women.  Generally within range for a human to impersonate, though.  And amusingly, with a max height of 5'5", they're all *just* able to impersonate a dwarf!  A male dwarf, anyway.

Gnomes and halflings are crazy light by the way.   Anyway, the chart is at the bottom of this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm
(all 3.5 again)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 09, 2019, 09:16:35 am

Re: dnd5e wiki purge.

So the "Feats" page, which previously contained every feat from the PHB, SCAG, Mordenkainen's, the Planeshift thingies, and even a few UA feats, has been tidied up a bit.

It is now a list over one single feat.

That feat is Grappler.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 09, 2019, 09:43:28 am

The purge is a little unfortunate. I own the books, but the wiki was still handier to look through than the various books when it came to having everything in one place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 09, 2019, 10:36:37 am

Like always, Lawyers RUIN everything.

"No! Not an easily searchable and convenient distillation of the information in our TOTALLY ONLY FOR PURCHASE core books! CERTAINLY not for free! Cease and desist immediately, Pen and Paper humans! The Nazgul have spoken!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 09, 2019, 12:15:44 pm

Quote from: Kagus on March 09, 2019, 09:16:35 am

Re: dnd5e wiki purge.

So the "Feats" page, which previously contained every feat from the PHB, SCAG, Mordenkainen's, the Planeshift thingies, and even a few UA feats, has been tidied up a bit.

It is now a list over one single feat.

That feat is Grappler.

Yeah, that's because Grappler is the only feat in 5e SRD and the wiki editors were told by Fandom to remove any non-SRD content (https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Foxwells/We_Have_a_Problem_(Fate_of_the_Wikia)) from it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 09, 2019, 02:26:47 pm

I mean, this is a reasonable policy for that wiki host to have. They've got to cover themselves even in the face of companies far more litigious than WotC.

I also don't really see it as a big loss, since there's already a more convenient lookup with far better UI than just going with what happened to already be available for free. I get that I people have their own preferences, but still.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 09, 2019, 04:00:16 pm

I'm pretty sure I've been meaning to say "Xanathar's" the past few times I used "Mordenkainen's". Hurr.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 10, 2019, 10:27:51 pm

I have decided that it is time for me to try a bit of adventure design.

Our hobby has a grand tradition of stealing from pop (and non-pop, actually) media. Lord of the Rings. Bram Stoker. Blade Runner. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. More on that last one... right about now.

So we've talked about LotFP recently. There's an adventure for it called "Blood in the Chocolate". Basically, take the plot of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Make everything stupid deadly. Not just "fire hot, don't touch". I'm talking OG Tomb of Horrors "players trigger debilitating traps and can maybe save but definitely can't detect/disable them beforehand". Also mechanics that people with inflation fetishes may enjoy. As you may expect, given the people that flock to create LotFP supplements.

That got me thinking that there's maybe a market for adult adventures using knockoffs of other children's programming properties.

Spoiler: Big stupid post about The Magic School Bus as a horror adventure (click to show/hide)

Anyway, I have a toddler. Thus, I have watched entirely too much children's television. Most recently, the entirety of The Magic School Bus. That, in conjunction with my twisted mind, got me thinking. What if the bus, which seems to have been shown having emotions and some level of intelligence, went to a junkyard? It breaks down occasionally (let's pretend those are real breakdowns and not "magic" breakdowns that occur because Ms. Frizzle uses them as teaching moments) and it's old. A good 20 years old when the series first came out and two and a half more decades have passed. It's unlikely that many people will want a heavily-used 1970s-era Ward International R-183.

Random explanatory thought that I need to say now because I make use of it in the next paragraph: My pet theory is that teacher's earrings are what allow her to wordlessly communicate with the bus. Note that they frequently flash before the magic shit happens.

So what do if something untoward happens to Ms. Frizzle? She gets exposed to something that kills her outright or makes her go bonkers and get institutionalized. Something that means she's not around to care for the bus. So you've got a bus mouldering in the junkyard. You've got a lady either mouldering as well (and the bus knows it) or institutionalized and sending crazythought to the bus via the earrings. Eventually it's gotta break and go on a Christine/Maximum Overdrive killing spree.

Fetish mechanics will not be included, unless your fetish is getting non-sexually destroyed by a sapient magical murderbus. If you've got a different fetish, you can houserule it yourself.

---

Well that's a lot of words. I guess I should ask some questions now.

Since most adventures are probably bought for use as reading material and not play, would you peruse such a thing for the lulz?

What system do you think would best support murderbus? I'm thinking of going generic and providing mechanics for several systems, so name as many as you want. I'll do the legwork to see about the whole 3rd party publisher thing.

Outright killing people as a bus that can turn into Jupiter would be pretty easy. Any thoughts for some more subtle ways of doing things before I get started? I imagine the bus isn't doing this because it's got some level of self-preservation instincts and/or doesn't want to harm the kids or its previous owner, if any still live.

Is this just plain stupid and I should give up before progressing very far?

Any other questions?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IronyOwl on March 10, 2019, 10:56:48 pm

I'd certainly be amused and interested by an adventure about Ms. Frizzle: Jumanji Edition, but it'd have to be pretty goddamn magical to consider paying for.

I'm unsure system matters a great deal for the underlying concept of being transported into weird shit. Being hunted by a semisapient mass transit vehicle probably does fit some systems better than others, but not much comes to mind for specifics.

I would think the bus would continue attempting to transport people to magical places where they can learn things, regardless of whether or not it's attempting to murder them at the same time. If not, it's probably bringing the party to them, like a documentary crossed with Saw. Possibly getting crazier and more unhinged as Ms. Frizzle fails to narrate the events like the good old days, spiraling the bus even further into madness and despair.

This is probably stupid, yes. The payoff is almost entirely in the reference, so you're looking for the intersection between requiring premade adventures and being a fan of a particular children's cartoon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on March 10, 2019, 11:03:09 pm

Quote from: IronyOwl on March 10, 2019, 10:56:48 pm

I'd certainly be amused and interested by an adventure about Ms. Frizzle: Jumanji Edition, but it'd have to be pretty goddamn magical to consider paying for.

This is my view as well. It's a funny idea, but having gotten a laugh out of it for $0 I don't feel any need to go pay money for a longer joke with the same punchline and maybe some ancillary references I'm already perfectly capable of imagining.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 10, 2019, 11:07:04 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on March 10, 2019, 10:27:51 pm

That got me thinking that there's maybe a market for adult adventures using knockoffs of other children's programming properties.

Boy, have I got news for you about a show called My Little Pony.

As for the murder bus, well, it's not the kind of thing I'd be interested in unless I heard that there was something particularly visionary in the mechanics of it, from which I could learn, and that's about the lowest level of interest I have in any RPG stuff. As for terrible but non-lethal things the bus can do, the show used to involve a whole lot of being transformed into things and stuck in places. It was played for the education, but if you take away the kiddy filter, being turned into a salmon is already a pretty grim fate. Being sent inside a human's body is even worse. And that's just two episodes I happen to remember from decades ago when I myself was the age to watch it. I'm sure you could come up with more since you're watching the show with your kids, either from the episodes or from popping open any science book. Or if you want to get more fantasy, you can have the bus abduct the party one way or another and transport them to hell/ravenloft/any unpleasant plane.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 11, 2019, 06:55:11 am

Quote from: Trekkin on March 10, 2019, 11:03:09 pm

Quote from: IronyOwl on March 10, 2019, 10:56:48 pm

I'd certainly be amused and interested by an adventure about Ms. Frizzle: Jumanji Edition, but it'd have to be pretty goddamn magical to consider paying for.

This is my view as well. It's a funny idea, but having gotten a laugh out of it for $0 I don't feel any need to go pay money for a longer joke with the same punchline and maybe some ancillary references I'm already perfectly capable of imagining.

Addressing both of these at once, it'd probably be a free product should I actually produce anything, which is definitely not a given.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 11, 2019, 07:43:27 am

I dunno, a sick twist on when they drove the schoolbus around inside ralphie is perfectly doable too.

Magic Schoolbus: Or how Miss Frizzle gave Ralphie gastroenteritis.

Be sure to feature all manner of horrible parasites. :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 11, 2019, 07:50:52 am

You are the hunter gatherer descendants of Miss Frizzle's class, you have lived many generations in the dangerous and strange world known as Ralphie, hunting the mighty white blood cell, gathering food from the small intestine and battling the invasive forces of bacteria.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on March 11, 2019, 07:57:08 am

Having watched Blue Planet 2 recently, getting dropped off anywhere near Mantis Shrimp of any species, while being less than full human size is probably easily one of the more horrifying things the bus could do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on March 11, 2019, 07:58:25 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 11, 2019, 07:50:52 am

You are the hunter gatherer descendants of Miss Frizzle's class, you have lived many generations in the dangerous and strange world known as Ralphie, hunting the mighty white blood cell, gathering food from the small intestine and battling the invasive forces of bacteria.

I'd read that

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 11, 2019, 07:58:54 am

You must drive without rhythm, or you will attract the worm! (https://www.google.com/search?q=scolex&client=firefox-b-1-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw98mRkfrgAhVs_4MKHUySBUQQ_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=966)


And yes. Unless Ms Frizzle also does some serious time distortion shit with the bus, that mantis shrimp will literally boil the ocean water with how quickly it will grab and consume the bus if it gets too close.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 11, 2019, 09:02:27 am

These last few comments are basically "that one episode of Rick and Morty: The RPG". I don't know if I'm intellectual enough to tackle Rick and Morty RPG shenanigans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on March 16, 2019, 10:03:25 pm

So I just finished my second game of Call of Cthulhu. My character, the Canadian archaeologist Dr. Steve "Vancouver Steve" Stevens, is no more, gunned down by gangsters.

In his place, his illegitimate daughter, Ophelia Cordova, will appear, trying to find out his whereabouts and likely getting involved with some eldritch horrors in the process.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 17, 2019, 03:36:30 am

Playing Kult: Divinity Lost over Discord, I actually got to the point of shouting into my microphone for the first time.

My character's, Eddie's, special project of raising his wife Sofia from the dead took a setback when Eddie's rival and another character's, Adele's, ex-fuckbuddy Zaol, who is a magician, ended up being possessed and destroying Sofia's corpse. In rage, Eddie stabbed Zaol, but before he could finish the job, Adele intervened with magic to force the combatants to disperse. A bit later, the characters regroup and Eddie asks Adele "what the fuck, I had him!" Adele says that she still has feelings for Zaol and won't allow him to be killed. Now fuming with rage, Eddie shouts at Adele and reminds her of just the previous night, when an occult ritual went wrong and dozens of innocents died. The response: "but I didn't care for those people." Eddie finally collapsed, but part deux of this argument came to be when Adele fed a mugger to a bunch of possessed policemen. "Does life and death really not matter when it's not somebody you know?" "Not really, no."

It's worth noting that even though Eddie holds the goal of raising Sofia, Adele is more experienced in the game's lore and thus is the expert Eddie turns toward. However, when both she and Zaol show such sociopathic tendencies, Eddie is starting to doing whether magic really is 'good'. Needless to say, Eddie's Relation value towards Adele fell after the session.

Kult might be a game of occultism, sex, drugs and violence, but somehow we turned even that into a soap opera. A love quadrangle gets interesting when one of the characters in it is dead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on March 18, 2019, 02:57:35 am

My group's about to encounter the final series of battles in their current scenario, having tracked the local goblin menace to the city's dump.

Any suggestions for cool crap they might stumble across when exploring a fantasy refuse pile?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 18, 2019, 03:03:33 am

Spoiled potions, defective magical items, monsters borne from discarded magical items in late stage decay, "Anomalous areas" caused by such items decaying, poor people picking through the refuse, fires, corpses (including zombies), that sort of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 18, 2019, 03:09:54 am

The dump is located on a stream, and the stream is Very Angry. Think the Sludge Monster River Spirit from Spirited Away.

Rat Kings.

Undead Rat Kings.

Undead Llama Hair.

Garbage Gnomes angry that the adventurers are coming to steal their "treasures".

Miasma.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 18, 2019, 03:17:20 am

Broken magic items by local wizards. Wands that have been snapped in half, shattered mystic orbs, long-forgotten golems buried under the trash, abandoned familiars gone feral, frayed magic carpets, talking swords with no-one to talk to, spellbooks and grimoires someone spilled magic ink on... Magic things that still have power in them, but definitely won’t work as expected anymore. Who knows what all that accumulated unbound magic has done to the dump and the beings within?

You could also have more mundane trash piles which the goblins have dug into. The whole place becomes a treacherous maze where the goblins might emerge out of any mound of garbage. They could’ve laid deadly makeshift traps using pieces of garbage - drowning you in rotten fish or blocking your escape with trash avalanches.

Kinda a fun locale for an adventure. I hope they have fun with it!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Castlecliff on March 18, 2019, 03:19:39 am

Quote from: wierd on March 18, 2019, 03:03:33 am

Spoiled potions, defective magical items, monsters borne from discarded magical items in late stage decay, "Anomalous areas" caused by such items decaying, poor people picking through the refuse, fires, corpses (including zombies), that sort of thing.

Hmmmm

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 18, 2019, 10:02:17 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 18, 2019, 02:57:35 am

My group's about to encounter the final series of battles in their current scenario, having tracked the local goblin menace to the city's dump.

Any suggestions for cool crap they might stumble across when exploring a fantasy refuse pile?

The first few minutes of Alita are in a refuse pile. Imagine what might have been thrown away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 18, 2019, 12:09:27 pm

Have a broken, apparently non-magical sword, that is actually a legendary anti-magic sword.
If they for some reason take the sword with them, they find out what the sword is soon.
If not, they will later get a quest to backtrack to the dump and retrieve it.
Actually, which level is this adventure? If they're goblins, not even kobolds, it's probably too low level for this.

There should be some kind of trash golem, made by an insane garbage hermit.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 18, 2019, 12:37:22 pm

They could stumble across Common Decency and Dignity, tossed in with the rest of the refuse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 18, 2019, 12:58:26 pm

A barrel tossed out haphazardly, filled with wands. (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/56owc3/the_commoner_curse_of_300_wands/)

Or if you don't want to hopelessly derail the campaign, cut it down to like five and disregard all particularly nasty results.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 18, 2019, 01:01:54 pm

Quote from: Kagus on March 18, 2019, 12:37:22 pm

They could stumble across Common Decency and Dignity, tossed in with the rest of the refuse.

"Here lies Squidward's hopes and dreams"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on March 19, 2019, 03:51:17 pm

Y'all talking about shapechanging druid and not even bringing up the 3.0 Master of Many Forms? Plebs :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 19, 2019, 03:54:06 pm

I entered the dnd scene too late to ever even see a game of 3.0 out in the wild.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on March 19, 2019, 04:07:23 pm

It did get updated for 3.5 as well, but I forget which book it came from. Same book as Fist of the Forest and Nature's Warrior prestige classes.

MoMF was the wildshape prestige class, especially if your DM allowed the wildshape ranger archetype.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on March 21, 2019, 12:26:05 pm

Hey, everyone. I've been invited to take part in a Star Wars: Age of Rebellion campaign. Nobody but the GM has played FFG Star Wars before, and as it'll be her first time GMing she is, per our mutual friend, somewhat nervous about it. Unfortunately, having never played myself, I don't really know what things to avoid as being mechanically annoying, so I'm worried I'm going to build around something that's going to cause a huge headache down the road without either of us realizing it ahead of time. Are there any skills/talents/weapons that are notoriously broken in Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion or just weird to deal with?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 12:41:15 pm

Isn't that the system that gave us the "Revenge of Darth Janitor" story? Or is that another Star WaRPG?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 21, 2019, 12:47:15 pm

Quote from: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 12:41:15 pm

Isn't that the system that gave us the "Revenge of Darth Janitor" story? Or is that another Star WaRPG?

There's been like 4-6 star wars rpgs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on March 21, 2019, 01:46:13 pm

Quote from: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 12:41:15 pm

Isn't that the system that gave us the "Revenge of Darth Janitor" story? Or is that another Star WaRPG?

I think that's the West End version.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on March 21, 2019, 02:49:27 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on March 21, 2019, 12:26:05 pm

Hey, everyone. I've been invited to take part in a Star Wars: Age of Rebellion campaign. Nobody but the GM has played FFG Star Wars before, and as it'll be her first time GMing she is, per our mutual friend, somewhat nervous about it. Unfortunately, having never played myself, I don't really know what things to avoid as being mechanically annoying, so I'm worried I'm going to build around something that's going to cause a huge headache down the road without either of us realizing it ahead of time. Are there any skills/talents/weapons that are notoriously broken in Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion or just weird to deal with?

Advise your GM that auto-fire weapons can put out tremendous amounts of damage, both to groups and individuals. It'd be hard to ban them entirely, but maybe limit how often they are used against the players and try to avoid handing them out like candy.

Also, Force-users have the potential to completely overshadow non-Force users. Be careful not to unbalance a group too badly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 21, 2019, 02:54:53 pm

All jedi, or no jedi.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 03:09:17 pm

One time a jedi snuck up behind me and I nearly sith my pants.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 21, 2019, 03:25:55 pm

EDIT:Oops. Wrong thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 21, 2019, 03:38:22 pm

Since this supposedly takes place in universe, remind them that unless they are Darth Vader, or Darth Sidious, They are *NOT* a sith. (that order has very specific rules about succession!)  They could be a wild force talent (and thus untrained), that favors dark force use--- but NOT a sith. Remind them that both Sith and Jedi would be out to eliminate them in that case.  (Sith apprentice, because new sexxy apprentice is how they get sent on a suicidal mission by their master on purpose--- and Jedi for obvious reasons.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 21, 2019, 03:50:24 pm

Or alternatively, set the game a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away, when there were more than two sith at a time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 03:51:23 pm

Well, that depends on time period, of course... Considering everything after Vader and a lot of stuff up to Sidious did not exercise the Rule of Two.

Aaaand semi-ninjaed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on March 21, 2019, 03:57:25 pm

It's worth noting that Age of Rebellion's lore and stat blocks all assume that the game takes place during the Original Trilogy. That said, I guess there's no real reason a GM couldn't scale everything back a few hundred/thousand years and just re-name the ships available.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 21, 2019, 04:07:06 pm

The Rule of Two was regularly broken by the Sith by the OT time period in both canons. The Sith were strict about making their master/apprentice follow the rules, but were generally down with breaking them themselves until getting caught by their colleague. See all the secret apprentices littering continuity during the Clone Wars/Galactic Empire time period.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 04:12:38 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 21, 2019, 04:07:06 pm

The Rule of Two was regularly broken by the Sith by the OT time period in both canons. The Sith were strict about making their master/apprentice follow the rules, but were generally down with breaking them themselves until getting caught by their colleague. See all the secret apprentices littering continuity during the Clone Wars/Galactic Empire time period.

After all, it Obi takes Wan Kenobi to fuck up your main apprentice that you spent a lot of time and effort customizing. Better to have a few backup strategies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 21, 2019, 04:19:06 pm

Age of Rebellion is the recent Star Wars RPG where folks are rebels and uses fancy dice, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on March 21, 2019, 04:35:07 pm

Quote from: Sirus on March 21, 2019, 02:49:27 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on March 21, 2019, 12:26:05 pm

Hey, everyone. I've been invited to take part in a Star Wars: Age of Rebellion campaign. Nobody but the GM has played FFG Star Wars before, and as it'll be her first time GMing she is, per our mutual friend, somewhat nervous about it. Unfortunately, having never played myself, I don't really know what things to avoid as being mechanically annoying, so I'm worried I'm going to build around something that's going to cause a huge headache down the road without either of us realizing it ahead of time. Are there any skills/talents/weapons that are notoriously broken in Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion or just weird to deal with?

Advise your GM that auto-fire weapons can put out tremendous amounts of damage, both to groups and individuals. It'd be hard to ban them entirely, but maybe limit how often they are used against the players and try to avoid handing them out like candy.

Also, Force-users have the potential to completely overshadow non-Force users. Be careful not to unbalance a group too badly.

Well, she's already banned PC Force-users entirely, so that's not a problem, but I'll avoid auto-fire weapons. Thanks!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 21, 2019, 04:46:25 pm

I have not played, but aren't force-users sort of the point of Star Wars?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on March 21, 2019, 04:54:20 pm

There's a connected game, Force and Destiny, that uses the same rules but is geared towards playing as an entire group of Force users. Age of Rebellion is more about being an ordinary person, fighting against (or for, the rules are more than flexible enough) the Empire. Think more Han Solo than Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 21, 2019, 05:35:40 pm

Edge of the Empire is like that too.  You *can* play as a force user, but the idea isn't to get involved with the Rebellion directly.  Your party is intended to be smugglers, mostly, operating in the fringe worlds.  The main antagonists and questgivers are the criminal syndicates you probably owe money to out of chargen (with mechanics on said debt "coming up" at random, depending on how deep you're in).

Our GM had a no-force-users rule which nobody minded.  It was a 2-3 session fling, we started in-media-res fleeing a heist and mostly just tracked down a smuggler for a crime boss we'd disappointed.  More chatting and playing cards for info than fighting, though we did have a running battle with a giant worm in the sewers.

(We got the info by *losing* a lot of money at cards, which got the card sharks in such a good mood they spilled the beans.  I think the GM said that if we'd won, they would have gotten violent.  We also did a dance competition.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on March 21, 2019, 06:56:03 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on March 16, 2019, 10:03:25 pm

So I just finished my second game of Call of Cthulhu. My character, the Canadian archaeologist Dr. Steve "Vancouver Steve" Stevens, is no more, gunned down by gangsters.

In his place, his illegitimate daughter, Ophelia Cordova, will appear, trying to find out his whereabouts and likely getting involved with some eldritch horrors in the process.

We had our third session yesterday. Due to a re-reading of the rules, the GM informed me that my last character technically wouldn't have died, so we agreed that he would have been captured instead, like the detective who was with him.

Maybe I'll eventually get to play him again, but, for now, I'm playing his daughter, who enrolled in Miskatonic University as an excuse to get close to her real father, and then found herself investigating his disappearance.

So, when someone from the university put the call out for someone to investigate the disappearance of another archaeologist, that got her attention. Maybe the two cases were unrelated, but considering that her father went missing around the same time as this guy, along with another archaeologist from this same university, she figured it was worth finding out if this all wasn't just some coincidence.

She was joined on this search by a med student she knew from classes or whatever, a detective and the 13-year-old girl sidekick, and a janitor who's secretly an assassin. After spending some time asking questions of someone who last saw the professor and turned out to be delusional, we set off in two cars visit the last known whereabouts of his dig site.

After a few hours, we, in the lead car (driven by the janitor assassin, with the med student and me riding along), narrowly avoided a deer, which the other car (detective and sidekick) collided with. We stopped to make sure they were alright, and, when we looked at the deer, we had to make sanity checks and saw it had some strange black liquid on it. The occupants of the car weren't too badly hurt, and the car, while messed up, was still technically drivable, so we continued on our way.

We made it to the farmhouse we'd be staying at, despite no one having any decent score in Navigate, so we had to rely on Luck, and the GM told us we narrowly avoided a TPK when we were presented with two paths to go down and the assassin happened to pick correctly. Then, it turned out we lost the other car, since they didn't realize we planned to stay at the farmhouse (which we learned about from the rest of the members of the archaeologist's dig team). So they stopped in the nearby town, and finding there were no hotels there, were eventually directed to the farmhouse. This was mostly uneventful, and just meant we claimed all the spare beds and the detective had to sleep in the barn and the sidekick slept in the car.

So nothing happened until about 3 am, when all the animals started making noises, and we went outside to find the farmer about to be gored by a charging boar. I put it down with the .38 revolver in my purse, and the med student gave CPR to some weird farmhand who only spoke gibberish, and his mouth turned out to be full of some black stuff similar to what we found on the deer. Also, we found the farmhand lived in some shack that was heavily soiled, possibly indicating some sort of mental disorder (I assume. I didn't make any rolls to confirm or anything). And then I think we ended the session as we went back to bed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on March 22, 2019, 08:49:09 am

Quote from: Trekkin on March 21, 2019, 01:46:13 pm

Quote from: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 12:41:15 pm

Isn't that the system that gave us the "Revenge of Darth Janitor" story? Or is that another Star WaRPG?

I think that's the West End version.

The best version, quirks and all.  The Force was broken and an unarmored human could be as tough as a land speeder, not to speak of wookies, but I loved this system.

I haven't heard of this story though, so I need to track it down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 22, 2019, 10:31:38 am

Quote from: Telgin on March 22, 2019, 08:49:09 am

Quote from: Trekkin on March 21, 2019, 01:46:13 pm

Quote from: Kagus on March 21, 2019, 12:41:15 pm

Isn't that the system that gave us the "Revenge of Darth Janitor" story? Or is that another Star WaRPG?

I think that's the West End version.

The best version, quirks and all.  The Force was broken and an unarmored human could be as tough as a land speeder, not to speak of wookies, but I loved this system.

I haven't heard of this story though, so I need to track it down.

This'un. (https://www.reddit.com/r/gametales/comments/5nm027/sith_janitor/)

Doesn't say much about version though, as the comment about "Star Wars D6" doesn't really seem to indicate whether that game was played in D6 or if the D6 version is irrelevant. I guess someone would have to track down the original thread on 4chan.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 22, 2019, 10:36:51 am

Ye gods, am I actually going to link to a 4chan archive on the Bay12 forums?

It would seem so. (https://warosu.org/tg/thread/19370971#p19371407)

Warning: <insert obvious warning about trawling random 4chan threads>

---

Ouch. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1918458549/the-sassoon-files/posts/2455655) At least they seem to be taking it in stride. "Buy the RPG that has been banned in China."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 28, 2019, 04:15:10 pm

Supposedly the Lucky feat combined with disadvantage becomes super advantage.
How is this supposed to happen?
Wouldn't you roll disadvantage then roll lucky and choose the highest; or roll disadvantage and reroll the lowest, but still have disadvantage?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 28, 2019, 04:44:39 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 28, 2019, 04:15:10 pm

Supposedly the Lucky feat combined with disadvantage becomes super advantage.
How is this supposed to happen?
Wouldn't you roll disadvantage then roll lucky and choose the highest; or roll disadvantage and reroll the lowest, but still have disadvantage?

Spending a luck point lets you roll an additional d20, then choose the die you want to use, no matter how many dice are involved in the roll. The extra die you roll isn't the second die from advantage or disadvantage, but something separate. So you roll twice for disadvantage; spending a luck point gives another d20. You then choose which of those three you want to use.

It's a strange way of working, but that's how it goes RAW-wise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IronyOwl on March 28, 2019, 04:46:10 pm

Disadvantage: Roll 2 d20s, take lowest.

Lucky: Spend luck point, roll extra d20, choose "which of the d20s you take."

A careful reading suggests that "which of the d20s" might be referring to "the d20 from the action" and "the d20 from lucky," in which case you'd roll disadvantage, then compare the lowest of that one to your lucky roll. But it's ambiguous enough that you could argue the lucky feat overrides the normal rules for disadvantage, thereby giving you three d20s to freely choose a result from.


Of course, that's all rather irrelevant to what makes the game sensible and fun, so it's a bit of a pointless conversation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 28, 2019, 04:52:07 pm

The difficulty comes from the wording of Lucky. "Roll an extra die and then choose which one to take". It doesn't specifically differentiate between rolling three dice (advantage+lucky) and rolling three dice (disadvantage+lucky); meaning that, RAW, using lucky on a disadvantage would let you choose between all three dice.

There's a Sage Advice that addresses that eventuality, but I don't remember the specific wording and I think he actually admitted that "Yeah, this was kinda poorly worded". Which is incredibly rare.

You could also just houserule that Lucky is +1 positive die, so it either adds to advantage dice or subtracts from disadvantage dice. But that's kind of a poor patch since Lucky is technically supposed to let you choose the specific die you want, not just automatically take the highest.

EDIT: Or I could get double-ninjad

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 29, 2019, 01:43:11 am

It makes a perverse sort of sense. Being lucky lets you make the best of a bad situation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 29, 2019, 01:46:40 am

(bad joke)

And here I thought the "lucky" trait was what the Bard took so that he could finally succeed in his "endeavors" with the bar maids of the realm...

(/bad joke)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on March 29, 2019, 11:30:13 am

I’ve been thinking of getting into World of Darkness lately and I thought I’d ask for some advice here. From what I know, there’s Old world of darkness as well as New world of darkness. What troubles me though, is that I’ve heard from various places Nwod is kind of shit compared to Owod (kind of like 4E vs 3.5E DnD). For those who have played it, are there any truth to those rumours or is it still a fun game?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 29, 2019, 11:43:50 am

It's subjective, but in my experience NWoD is the one people actually play nowadays. And in the case of individual gamelines, some are clearly better than their successors or predecessors, on others it's a closer race.

It's definitely not like comparing D&D 3.5 and 4E, maybe closer to 5e and Pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 29, 2019, 12:06:47 pm

My group did NWoD almost exclusively for a couple years.  Mostly vampires, but also demon-possessed and a shorter campaign as ghouls.  I never played OWoD (outside the VtM:B video game) so I can't compare the mechanics, but I do think NWoD works very well.

In a way it's the opposite of 4e in that it doesn't emphasize tile-positioning.  Sorta like 5e, you're allowed to play without a map and just describe where your character is in relation to others.  We usually used a grid anyway because we were used to 3.5e, but I liked going gridless personally.

My favorite things about the system are the exploding dice, and the template system.  A rando human with a gun is actually very dangerous if you aren't careful.  Any attack can theoretically hit for hundreds of damage - in practice, sometimes that desperate kine gets lucky and ruins your night, vampire template be damned.  Being a vampire makes it a lot easier to recover, and makes bullets a non-issue, but a vampire uses the same skills to win a knife-fight as a human does.

I would guess that the concerns you're hearing might be about the fluff of the setting, which changed very drastically.  In a lot of ways I prefer the OWoD lore, but it was kinda... defined.  NWoD leaves a lot more up to the Storyteller.  In a nutshell:

OWoD:  Cain definitely existed and God made him the first vampire.  The distance from Cain is the most important factor in a Vampire's power.  Demons aren't necessarily evil, just rebels on the run from angels.  I think many were banned for trying to help humanity too much.  The world is gonna end because the original vampires literally have "plot device" as a power, and they're going to wake up, it's just a story about the last days.  Brujah are counterculture because they're descendants of Carthage who resent Rome/establishment.

NWoD: Nobody knows where vampires came from.  "Generation" is now just "blood potency", which increases naturally over the years or by sheer experience...  It makes feeding more difficult, so old vampires often take a nap to *reduce* their potency.  "God" is an undefined force, described as a machine (this vague cosmology is one of the biggest complaints, though I find it just different).  Demons are malicious entities which tempt mortals to sin.  Brujah are a Mexican biker gang with no redeeming qualities.  For some reason that last part bothers me the most.

Anyway, all those (kinda edgy/creepy) WoD stories I shared in this thread are NWoD.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 29, 2019, 12:26:29 pm

Yeah, WoD had some good (and also some very terrible, depending on game/author/publisher) fluff, and the starts to some good rules. Odds are good you'll fail at any given test you roll, because the math on dice wasn't done, but that's becoming more common. Aside from the themes of "you're pretty much a villain, but some other people are possibly worse, and they're your bosses" and "the players shouldn't be able to do things because they aren't in charge, it's the GM's game", you've got OWoD: here are the factions and storylines and politics; Go do what you're told. vs NWoD: No, we got rid of that because it's too constraining; we replaced it with underpants gnomes' plan, except without step one. NWoD did improve more rules than they de-improved, so that's good.

It's good for a comedy game, or using the character generation rules and making up your own game. The later in the development cycle, the less complete and well-thought-out the game is. Vampire is playable for a game where you're 1/13 of a Dracula, Mummy is also a book.

Notable: WoD loves specifying things too much, and ends up with hilarious results like "vampires are 1/100,000 people" because half of the types of vampires aren't allowed to take powers that let them feed secretly, so they're just kidnapper/murderers, combined with "there are 13 types of vampires, each type has factions, and some of those have subfactions with a dozen ranks with multiple vampires in them per town." Which is fine, as long as your city has (quick calculation) at least 150 million people, give or take.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on March 29, 2019, 12:44:50 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 29, 2019, 12:26:29 pm

It's good for a comedy game, or using the character generation rules and making up your own game.

Is that really an endorsement?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 29, 2019, 12:53:48 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on March 29, 2019, 12:44:50 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 29, 2019, 12:26:29 pm

It's good for a comedy game, or using the character generation rules and making up your own game.

Is that really an endorsement?

Sometimes, that's all you've got.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 29, 2019, 01:01:28 pm

IME I kinda hate the sheer amount of plot I had to dump on the players before we could really even do character gen.  All the different factions and how they hate each other but particularly this faction, all the different ways you coulda became special and what that means, what the moral meter is and what that means, yadda yadda yadda.

Granted, it was genius the transgression, but I don't see how its much better with the actual powers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 29, 2019, 01:07:07 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on March 29, 2019, 01:01:28 pm

IME I kinda hate the sheer amount of plot I had to dump on the players before we could really even do character gen.  All the different factions and how they hate each other but particularly this faction, all the different ways you coulda became special and what that means, what the moral meter is and what that means, yadda yadda yadda.

Granted, it was genius the transgression, but I don't see how its much better with the actual powers.

Psst... Hey, hey kid...

Wanna buy some Legend of the Five Rings?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on March 29, 2019, 01:10:22 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on March 29, 2019, 01:01:28 pm

Granted, it was genius the transgression, but I don't see how its much better with the actual powers.

GtT was also among the most plot-heavy fan splats, though in fairness the Catalysts didn't need the players to understand the factions in order to pick one and as I recall the Foundations were optional. Most WoD books were like that; Vampire, for example, didn't require an understanding of the Camarilla to have the player decide their particular neonate was a Gangrel or something. (I was always fond of making them unintentional shovelheads, myself.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 29, 2019, 01:23:48 pm

I will say that Demons the Possessed was imbalanced as all-get-out.  Basically unfinished.  It was still fun to play, but we basically had infinite willpower (due to a dot of Pride each) and once I maximized Sloth, I was using Intelligence for every roll.  We were fighting angels and the military, and winning, until the ST got bored and hit us with a RPG.  Was a fun ride though!

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on March 29, 2019, 01:01:28 pm

IME I kinda hate the sheer amount of plot I had to dump on the players before we could really even do character gen.  All the different factions and how they hate each other but particularly this faction, all the different ways you coulda became special and what that means, what the moral meter is and what that means, yadda yadda yadda.

Granted, it was genius the transgression, but I don't see how its much better with the actual powers.

Our solution for Vampire was that the city was ruled by Invictus, so we mainly worked for/with them.  A few sessions later we were sent to work with quasi-allies the Lancea Sanctum.  Carthians were played for a joke, occasionally showing up at Elysium parties acting like that one guy who's evangelical about Bitcoin.  We eventually learned more about them, but only after several months (they just weren't powerful in the city).

Circle of the Crone never even came up in our time playing, and we met exactly one Ordo Dracul member (technically early on, but he only revealed his allegiance towards the end of our campaign).

Quote from: Iduno on March 29, 2019, 12:26:29 pm

Notable: WoD loves specifying things too much, and ends up with hilarious results like "vampires are 1/100,000 people" because half of the types of vampires aren't allowed to take powers that let them feed secretly, so they're just kidnapper/murderers, combined with "there are 13 types of vampires, each type has factions, and some of those have subfactions with a dozen ranks with multiple vampires in them per town." Which is fine, as long as your city has (quick calculation) at least 150 million people, give or take.

Heh, yeah there's some of that.  But not every weird bloodline or faction has to exist in every city.  It wouldn't make sense logically, but it'd also be a ridiculous narrative to try to fit them all in at once.  I don't think Seattle has many Brujah, now that they're a Mexican biker gang.  And a landlocked city probably doesn't have that bloodline based around drowning.  (Or maybe it does, because vampires are sneaky that way!  Depends on the story.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on March 29, 2019, 01:35:25 pm

Ooh, drowning bloodline? Why do I suddenly want to write a deep south baptist vampire campaign

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 29, 2019, 01:36:58 pm

Yeah, most cities will have fewer vampires than average, with only one or two bloodlines. Those just aren't the cities you'll want to play in, usually. It could be fun to do that, though. You could play up the feudal metaphor by letting players each be prince of some smaller community (possibly including a substantial geographic range, if you set the game in, for example, the central US, or Australia) with most politics and whatnot happening in those major cities where the setting usually focuses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on March 29, 2019, 02:56:12 pm

Finally read the Sith Janitor story, and that was pretty great.  I can also totally see how that could cause a ton of butt hurt among the players so I'd never try it myself, but it was still a fun read.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 29, 2019, 02:57:14 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on March 29, 2019, 01:35:25 pm

Ooh, drowning bloodline? Why do I suddenly want to write a deep south baptist vampire campaign

Somehow based around the "original sin" of ol Cain?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on March 29, 2019, 03:40:13 pm

Quote from: Telgin on March 29, 2019, 02:56:12 pm

Finally read the Sith Janitor story, and that was pretty great.  I can also totally see how that could cause a ton of butt hurt among the players so I'd never try it myself, but it was still a fun read.

This got me curious and I searched it out. Awesome. Just awesome.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on March 30, 2019, 03:32:42 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on March 29, 2019, 02:57:14 pm

Quote from: Gentlefish on March 29, 2019, 01:35:25 pm

Ooh, drowning bloodline? Why do I suddenly want to write a deep south baptist vampire campaign

Somehow based around the "original sin" of ol Cain?

Dude yes. The plot's basically writing itself at this point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on March 30, 2019, 03:40:10 pm

So, they cause agricultural blight everywhere they go (God's curse on Cain was that the earth would never again yield a bounty to him; So, if these vampires are associated with that, then every plant they come across must wither up into nothing.), have a clearly visible mark on them, and anyone that strikes them down will suffer a divine curse?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on March 31, 2019, 11:10:27 am

Quote from: wierd on March 30, 2019, 03:40:10 pm

So, they cause agricultural blight everywhere they go (God's curse on Cain was that the earth would never again yield a bounty to him; So, if these vampires are associated with that, then every plant they come across must wither up into nothing.), have a clearly visible mark on them, and anyone that strikes them down will suffer a divine curse?

Well, no, not necessarily. For one thing, the first part of Cain's curse was that, should he farm the land, it would yield no produce for him specifically. If you want the NIV translation, "When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you." (emphasis mine) Vampires not being able to digest plants ticks that box even if the crops grow. For another, "א֔וֹת" doesn't necessarily mean a physical mark; it can also be a sign or an omen or something mystical. VtM vampires' detectable auras probably qualify. In any event, depending on interpretation, the purpose of the second part of the curse was a ward against premature death to ensure he had time to repent/serve as an example, so vampiric immortality would fit that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on April 01, 2019, 07:57:40 am

Bought a bunch of classic RuneQuest shit yesterday just because one of the items on sale was SoloQuest. Despite not playing more than one solo encounter, I think I may be "the RuneQuest guy." Excepting "Elric of Melniboné", I've got stuff from every version including pre- and post-rebrand Legend and Mythras.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 01, 2019, 10:18:28 am

Quote from: heydude6 on March 29, 2019, 12:44:50 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 29, 2019, 12:26:29 pm

It's good for a comedy game, or using the character generation rules and making up your own game.

Is that really an endorsement?

It's not a glowing endorsement, but it's a reason to play. Why do you think Paranoia exists?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 16, 2019, 11:07:50 am

Is there a good homebrew 5e class or subclass that's all about controlling fate? Things like making your opponents shoot themself in the foot if they miss, making them trip and take damage if they move, as a high level give your allies the displacer beast trait avoidance, Etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 16, 2019, 12:16:02 pm

I don't know of any homebrew class like that, but all that could be done with existing materials.

Monk lets you catch and return projectile attacks, Booming Blade is a cantrip that damages enemies that move, Blur is a second-level spell that is pretty similar without being disrupted when hit.
Alternatively for the flavour of making an illusary copy of yourself, the second-level spell Mirror Image does that as well.

A trickery cleric gains Mirror Image in their cleric spells, so a trickery cleric/monk would be less MAD and achieve your three examples.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 16, 2019, 12:26:59 pm

Well, I mean, there's also the Lucky feat, being a Halfling, and Diviner wizards if you want control of fate.


I do remember seeing one homebrew that basically just expanded upon the Diviner's abilities, but then we get into the discussion of what a "good" homebrew is... I'd also need to remember the name of it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 16, 2019, 12:54:12 pm

A... Diviner-ish sorcerer subclass, maybe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2019, 06:56:55 pm

Wild magic Sorcerer has a few abilities to mess with fate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 16, 2019, 08:46:16 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 16, 2019, 12:16:02 pm

Monk lets you catch and return projectile attacks, Booming Blade is a cantrip that damages enemies that move, Blur is a second-level spell that is pretty similar without being disrupted when hit.

Drunken Master monks also get an ability that allows them to redirect a missed attack from an opponent into another enemy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 17, 2019, 03:18:25 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 16, 2019, 12:16:02 pm

Blur is a second-level spell that is pretty similar without being disrupted when hit.

Uh, avoidance, not displacement. Avoidance is pretty much Evasion, but better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on April 21, 2019, 06:35:38 am

This is a moot question as the game was a long time ago but what's the best build for a sneaky Doppelganger that doesn't suck in a sword fight?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 22, 2019, 12:05:12 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on April 21, 2019, 06:35:38 am

This is a moot question as the game was a long time ago but what's the best build for a sneaky Doppelganger that doesn't suck in a sword fight?

What doppleganger? The Eberron changeling? If so, how sneaky we talking? If you are okay not being that sneaky, a dex-based Battle Master Fighter would probably work. If you want to be really sneaky, a bard of swords or valor may be what you want.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 22, 2019, 12:06:37 pm

That, or a swashbuckler rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on April 23, 2019, 12:29:18 pm

I meant the monster race.

Doppelganger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm)

And the original concept was to be a quartermaster on a pirate ship. So he'd need to be suitably stabby, but also socially adept to act as a face and acquire supplies. I went with the Thug variant Fighter for sneak attacks but he ended up awful at everything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 23, 2019, 02:09:42 pm

YOUR TIME HAS COME PRIMATE

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 25, 2019, 09:29:36 am

So I just realized an amazing loophole, but I'll never be in a campaign where I'd be able to make use of it myself... So, here we go.

If you're in a setting where you need to root out a circle of hedge wizards or evil warlocks or whatever, rather than run around on an investigative sleuth quest that could take weeks, just use this one simple trick to get the information you need.

First, it's vital that your character has a background as a pirate... If not, you'll need to find a willing and moderately trustworthy pirate that can do the legwork for you.

Next, you'll need to get two fresh pies. Meat, fruit or vegetable, doesn't matter... But you'll need pies.

Once all the parts are in order, you'll need to find an area with enough space to work comfortably. Hold a pie in each hand out in front of you, and shout "Arrr!".


Congratulations! You have now found the circumference of The Circle, and will be able to work out the rest from there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2019, 09:41:25 am

This is just like the results you find when you have a tech problem and try to find solutions in whatever sites Google throws at you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on April 25, 2019, 11:46:56 am

That's why I never call my groups of evil wizards a "Circle". We're the Hexagon of Evil, or the Nonagon of the Nine Hells, or <insert other named 2d shape here>.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2019, 11:57:51 am

Quote from: Mephisto on April 25, 2019, 11:46:56 am

That's why I never call my groups of evil wizards a "Circle". We're the Hexagon of Evil, or the Nonagon of the Nine Hells, or <insert other named 2d shape here>.

Why 2d? Why not the Dodecahedron of Darkness or the Tesseract of the Transplanar Travails?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 25, 2019, 12:14:18 pm

The Mobius Strip of Wizards have transcended good vs. evil, because there is only one side.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 25, 2019, 12:16:24 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on April 25, 2019, 12:14:18 pm

The Mobius Strip of Wizards have transcended good vs. evil, because there is only one side.

Actually, there's some Aberrations from the Far Realm on the other side of the Mobius Strip.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on April 25, 2019, 12:19:06 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 25, 2019, 11:57:51 am

Quote from: Mephisto on April 25, 2019, 11:46:56 am

That's why I never call my groups of evil wizards a "Circle". We're the Hexagon of Evil, or the Nonagon of the Nine Hells, or <insert other named 2d shape here>.

Why 2d? Why not the Dodecahedron of Darkness or the Tesseract of the Transplanar Travails?

Easier if they're warlocks (for at-will flight) or necromancers (for the never-tiring workforce capable of constructing scaffolding). Otherwise the spell slot tax for constantly-prepped fly spells, while it does result in a suitably evil looking formation a la the Death Stranding trailers, is a bit too high.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 25, 2019, 12:24:01 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on April 25, 2019, 12:19:06 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 25, 2019, 11:57:51 am

Quote from: Mephisto on April 25, 2019, 11:46:56 am

That's why I never call my groups of evil wizards a "Circle". We're the Hexagon of Evil, or the Nonagon of the Nine Hells, or <insert other named 2d shape here>.

Why 2d? Why not the Dodecahedron of Darkness or the Tesseract of the Transplanar Travails?

Easier if they're warlocks (for at-will flight) or necromancers (for the never-tiring workforce capable of constructing scaffolding). Otherwise the spell slot tax for constantly-prepped fly spells, while it does result in a suitably evil looking formation a la the Death Stranding trailers, is a bit too high.

Warlocks have at-will flight? You must be tallking about a different edition than 5e, because they don't get at-will flight in 5e.
But what about races that can fly by themselves, can they join the Dodecahedron of Darkness?
Also, I don't think Cruxador meant literally having a tesseract shaped building, or whatever you're talking about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on April 25, 2019, 12:32:13 pm

Shows how much I know. Haven't played a warlock since 3.5, where they could take Fell Flight.

Assuming my knowledge of flying is still current, you'd have to have perfect flight so you could hover in place. I'm guessing that'd exclude Aarakocra and (most?) other forms of PC flight not granted by magic. Turns out that's all incorrect. 5e doesn't seem to do anything special in this regard - you can fly, you can hover in one spot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 25, 2019, 01:11:27 pm

I think the closest thing 5e warlocks get is the invocation to cast levitate at will.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 25, 2019, 01:28:18 pm

Flying and levitating are very different things, but they would be able to levitate up to the place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 25, 2019, 04:16:22 pm

You also don't necessarily have to all stand in the formation of the shape that's in your name. The term "circle" doesn't denote that, so why should other shapes do so?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 25, 2019, 04:28:44 pm

The Knights of the Round Table would like to disagree.

I think the main thing is that this is funnier.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on April 25, 2019, 07:35:27 pm

all these unorientable solids, some even in 4 dimensional space...

So, what-- are we gonna trap them all in a giant klein bottle? :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on April 27, 2019, 02:23:08 pm

The Great Dodecahedron would be a good name for a cabal of twelve wizards.

I'm going for the classic in my new campaign, the Triumvirate is always a cool villainous name.  Stealing some shit from the Eador games with a world consisting of broken up shards floating in space, and a cosmic game to take control of them.  Each shard has ancient structures scattered across it, and the first to attune all of them rules the shard as a god.  The masters have a set of rules for contending over shards, since total warfare between immortal wizards rarely leaves anything worth claiming when it's over.  Most importantly, a contender can never act directly on a shard.  He has to use champions and intermediaries. 

The PCs don't know about any of this, but their world is being contested, and when they've made a name for themselves one of the contenders will make himself known.  Planning on having a kind of double-twist.  The master plays the gandalf cliche, a kindly wizard who offers advice and adventures for the party, then the twist is of course he's actually trying to take over the world.  The double-twist, once they think it's the obvious subverted trope, is that he really is benevolent, an enlightened dictator and all that.  And then ruling the empire across the sea is the Triumvirate, three masters who ascended as one and hate each other.  They don't care about the rules and if they win they'll tear the world apart scheming against each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 27, 2019, 08:44:11 pm

I'm going to try to make an Awakened Cat character. Circle of moon druid, starting level 5, considering some levels in Rogue. Maybe arcane trickster because having mage hand is helpful when you're playing as a character that doesn't have normal hands.
Annoyingly it seems that Rogue sneak attacks don't work with non-finesse melee attacks, and none of the big strong attacks I have while wildshaped count as finesse. Am I supposed to believe that a tiger is incapable of sneak attacking?

Anyone have some build advise? "Don't play as an awakened cat" doesn't count. ;P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 28, 2019, 02:40:21 am

Rules as written, natural weapons don't have the finesse quality unless explicitly noted, so even non-cat druids can't sneak attack while wildshaped.

However, since you could convince your GM to let you play an awakened cat, they're probably open to making unofficial rulings on what counts as a finesse weapon. Talk with them and see where it goes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 28, 2019, 12:16:10 pm

Straight moon druid is a pretty powerful subclass, especially early on, so I can understand why the rules would go out of their way to not give them sneak attack dice in wild shape.

I'm more curious as to how you're dealing with the Awakened Cat aspect. You just reflavoring the Tabaxi or doing something else?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 28, 2019, 12:23:38 pm

take cat. cast awaken on it. size tiny, 3 strength, 15 dex, can talk and think as well as a person, permanently. if it has 10 int and can talk, no reason it can't gain class levels. no reason the creature you just built can't be a PC if the GM likes it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 28, 2019, 01:08:45 pm

Well, if you're starting as a druid, its probably better to stay as a druid. You can't multiclass anyways unless you increase your wisdom.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 28, 2019, 05:55:36 pm

So, uh... Diviner, right? Prophecy dice and all that jazz... Those count as natural rolls, right? So if you supplant a die with a pre-rolled 1 or 20, it's treated as a crit fail/success?

Theoretically then, if you've got a loaded 20 up your sleeve, you (or someone else nearby) could use a big unwieldy weapon that they're not proficient in... And still get a critical success on that attack, despite all the negative modifiers on the attack.

Except... I'm not sure how disadvantage meshes with portent dice. Do you swap out the die that gets used, or just one of the two dice before prompting the player to pick the lowest of the two?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on April 28, 2019, 08:34:25 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 28, 2019, 05:55:36 pm

Except... I'm not sure how disadvantage meshes with portent dice. Do you swap out the die that gets used, or just one of the two dice before prompting the player to pick the lowest of the two?

I think the consensus is that RAW the Portent die result replaces the whole roll, (dis)advantage and modifiers and all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 28, 2019, 10:49:04 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 28, 2019, 05:55:36 pm

So, uh... Diviner, right? Prophecy dice and all that jazz... Those count as natural rolls, right? So if you supplant a die with a pre-rolled 1 or 20, it's treated as a crit fail/success?

Theoretically then, if you've got a loaded 20 up your sleeve, you (or someone else nearby) could use a big unwieldy weapon that they're not proficient in... And still get a critical success on that attack, despite all the negative modifiers on the attack.

Yeah, theoretically if you roll a 20 you could do that. Course that's just a 1 in 20 chance for each die, plus that's just for one hit. So you should make it a pretty big hit. I think the one time I've seen someone do that they used it to cast a 5th level chromatic orb.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 28, 2019, 11:28:08 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 28, 2019, 05:55:36 pm

Except... I'm not sure how disadvantage meshes with portent dice. Do you swap out the die that gets used, or just one of the two dice before prompting the player to pick the lowest of the two?

If you use Portent, you don't roll any dice. No advantage, no disadvantage, you just announce you're using it before the target has rolled and it becomes their roll to which they apply their modifiers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mini on April 29, 2019, 05:38:56 am

Portent replaces the entire roll, so advantage and disadvantage don't apply.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 29, 2019, 05:48:52 am

Quote from: Persus13 on April 28, 2019, 10:49:04 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 28, 2019, 05:55:36 pm

So, uh... Diviner, right? Prophecy dice and all that jazz... Those count as natural rolls, right? So if you supplant a die with a pre-rolled 1 or 20, it's treated as a crit fail/success?

Theoretically then, if you've got a loaded 20 up your sleeve, you (or someone else nearby) could use a big unwieldy weapon that they're not proficient in... And still get a critical success on that attack, despite all the negative modifiers on the attack.

Yeah, theoretically if you roll a 20 you could do that. Course that's just a 1 in 20 chance for each die, plus that's just for one hit. So you should make it a pretty big hit. I think the one time I've seen someone do that they used it to cast a 5th level chromatic orb.

Sure, but critical hits are a big deal because they're unpredictable, and since you can't count on them you can't plan around their massive potential. If you've rolled a portent 20 for the day, you know you've got that in your back pocket and can pull it out whenever you feel the time is right.

And yeah, 14d8 elemental damage is probably a better choice in general, but you can't deny the coolness factor of the scrawny wizard hefting up the dropped greatsword and carving into the back of the big bad by surprise while he was taunting the rest of the group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 29, 2019, 08:45:12 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 29, 2019, 05:48:52 am

Sure, but critical hits are a big deal because they're unpredictable, and since you can't count on them you can't plan around their massive potential. If you've rolled a portent 20 for the day, you know you've got that in your back pocket and can pull it out whenever you feel the time is right.

And yeah, 14d8 elemental damage is probably a better choice in general, but you can't deny the coolness factor of the scrawny wizard hefting up the dropped greatsword and carving into the back of the big bad by surprise while he was taunting the rest of the group.

Crit portent dice are pretty awesome. But if you play a character for that, you're going to be disappointed, because portent dice don't make them any more common. The vast majority of the time you'll have like an 8 and a 13 to use, and you'll just be using them to guarantee a hit or a failed save. Which is very good, but not as cool as crits.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on April 29, 2019, 09:21:25 am

How do these portent dice work, exactly? Do you just roll a couple of d20s at the start of each day and save them for later?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on April 29, 2019, 09:34:59 am

Quote from: Sirus on April 29, 2019, 09:21:25 am

How do these portent dice work, exactly? Do you just roll a couple of d20s at the start of each day and save them for later?

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 29, 2019, 09:36:55 am

Quote from: Sirus on April 29, 2019, 09:21:25 am

How do these portent dice work, exactly? Do you just roll a couple of d20s at the start of each day and save them for later?

Pretty much. You can use one of the portent dice in place of any skill, attack, or save roll made by you or anyone you can see. No save/resist to have your roll replaced. You keep the dice until you use them or you have a long rest. At level (13? I think?) you get a third portent die to roll every day.

It's pretty frickin' sweet.

Quote from: Persus13 on April 29, 2019, 08:45:12 am

Crit portent dice are pretty awesome. But if you play a character for that, you're going to be disappointed, because portent dice don't make them any more common. The vast majority of the time you'll have like an 8 and a 13 to use, and you'll just be using them to guarantee a hit or a failed save. Which is very good, but not as cool as crits.

It's not about playing a character for that reason, it's just good to clarify exactly what kinds of tools you have in your little bag of tricks. Especially when the rules get a little bit finicky or difficult to understand... And no, portent rolls aren't any more likely to be crits than any others, but it's the fact that you know ahead of time what the roll is going to be that makes portent crits better than standard crits. Because if you do have a portent crit, you know exactly when and where that crit is going to take place.

Again, this was mainly just about clarifying whether or not the off-chance clutch beefwizard scenario was even theoretically possible, not about whether or not it was viable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 29, 2019, 10:45:07 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 29, 2019, 09:36:55 am

And no, portent rolls aren't any more likely to be crits than any others

Not true. A roll's probability of critting is inversely proportional to how believable it is for the character to succeed. It is very believable for a divination wizard to get good portent dice, ergo they are less likely to be crits.

Source: Several characters I or my co-players have played, including a dumb fighter who somehow always aced knowledge checks and a wizard who stabbed several devils to death with a rusty dagger.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 29, 2019, 12:26:02 pm

Why is a blowgun a martial weapon when a sling outclasses it in every way other than using it as an improvised weapon without ammo?

Also, if a Tavern Brawler (has the feat) tosses an oil flask at someone, does he deal 1d4+Dex damage?
And does oil work on all fire damage rolls for the minute, or only the first?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 29, 2019, 02:10:07 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 29, 2019, 12:26:02 pm

Why is a blowgun a martial weapon when a sling outclasses it in every way other than using it as an improvised weapon without ammo?

Because blowguns aren't common weapons that everyone knows how to use, at least in the standard setting of Forgotten Realms.

Quote

Also, if a Tavern Brawler (has the feat) tosses an oil flask at someone, does he deal 1d4+Dex damage?

It deals 1d4+Str (not Dex, as it is thrown and doesn't have finesse), even without the feat. The feat lets you add your proficiency modifier to the attack roll.

Quote

And does oil work on all fire damage rolls for the minute, or only the first?

The rules are ambiguous and left partially up to the GM. I'd rule that it burns out after the first damage. It's lamp oil, not napalm. Use alchemist's fire (which is napalm) if you want a longer effect (though its price of 50 gp per flask is a ripoff).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 29, 2019, 02:49:07 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on April 29, 2019, 02:10:07 pm

Quote

Also, if a Tavern Brawler (has the feat) tosses an oil flask at someone, does he deal 1d4+Dex damage?

It deals 1d4+Str (not Dex, as it is thrown and doesn't have finesse), even without the feat. The feat lets you add your proficiency modifier to the attack roll.

Uh... Ranged attacks are Dex-based. Thrown attacks can be Str-based, but all ranged attacks can be Dex-based, Thrown or not. Finesse is only for melee.
So basically, Ranged is Dex, and melee is Str, but Thrown and Finesse let you choose which Attack Stat you want to use for the attack.

I may be wrong about a weapon that actually has the Thrown property (I do not think so, though.), but that's somewhat moot in this case, as oil does not have the Thrown property.

As found in another discussion of this type;
"Weapons in the Ranged Weapon category with the Thrown property- like the net- use Dex as per PHB p.14 ("For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use your Strength modifier instead."). The 'can' is there because the thrown section on PHB p.147 sometimes overrides that via "If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon.". "

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 29, 2019, 04:02:33 pm

Hm, you're right, it's not actually an attack with a thrown weapon, just a plain "ranged attack", and doesn't assign a stat, so throwing oil defaults to using Dex. I assumed it would be Str and never Dex, since that's the case for javelins, the most popular throwing weapon:

Quote from: Player's Handbook, p. 147, the very section you referred.

For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 02, 2019, 07:26:10 pm

Is there a roleplaying guide to playing a paladin of redemption somewhere?

And how does one play a coward without making it annoying?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on May 02, 2019, 09:03:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 02, 2019, 07:26:10 pm

how does one play a coward without making it annoying?

I'm going to skip past the universal talk-to-your-group advice about buy-in that's valid for any potentially annoying character concept and say that, for cowardice in particular, what you probably want to do is figure out a single, critical moment to fail in which your cowardice is going to stop being a background event (before which it's ideal to limit yourself to suggestions of less risky alternatives) and becomes A Problem for the party. Make it memorable because you only get one, and ideally time it so that it costs the group something significant but not vital. Work with people here, especially the GM. Needless deaths of well-liked but plot-peripheral NPCs, particularly innocents, are great for this, and if the GM knows you want that they're not hard to work into the story. Then use that failure, and the antipathy it generates, as the focal point in your character arc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on May 02, 2019, 10:08:25 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 02, 2019, 07:26:10 pm

Is there a roleplaying guide to playing a paladin of redemption somewhere?

And how does one play a coward without making it annoying?

Do it in the kind of game that doesn't revolve around combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on May 02, 2019, 10:26:03 pm

Convince your GM to put in encounters with strong enemies that would be impractical for the party to beat, forcing either tactical prudence or awesome heroics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on May 02, 2019, 10:31:55 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on May 02, 2019, 10:26:03 pm

Convince your GM to put in encounters with strong enemies that would be impractical for the party to beat, forcing either tactical prudence or awesome heroics.

Neither of those are cowardice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 02, 2019, 10:53:42 pm

Play a wizard that summons critters to do the fight for him

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 03, 2019, 01:44:55 am

A conjurer of cheap tricks?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 03, 2019, 02:17:44 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 02, 2019, 07:26:10 pm

And how does one play a coward without making it annoying?

Fight, Flight, Freeze. Realistic fear is characterized more by uncertainty and stress reactions.
Maybe you lash out at things you don't understand, striking at them as soon as they look the slightest bit threatening. (Fight)
Maybe you promise to meet with the king, but at the last moment chase a pretty criminal into the sewers and remain there for as long as the excuse lasts, hoping to come up with another before then. (Flight).
Maybe the villain causes an avalanche while trying to escape and you don't know whether to keep chasing the villain or to go rescue the innocents under the avalanche...so you do neither. (Freeze)
Make the cowardice a serious weakness of character rather than comic relief, and roleplay it emotively. Outside of stressful situations, act bravely (you are an adventurer, after all), but when the dice fall, falter. Let the fear show in the uncertainty in your voice, and make it clear that the character hates second-guessing themself but can't help it. Be angry towards yourself afterwards, and discuss with your party members (in character) for ways you could improve. Next time in a similar situation, decide whether the character falters again or if they have grown enough since then to act with certainty. In doing so, make it a clear character development arc with the usual aesop: true bravery isn't not being afraid, it's acting despite being afraid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 08, 2019, 01:57:09 pm

Someone claimed that there were three pacifistic Unearthed Arcana subclasses. I know the Oath of Redemption, and I think there was such a monk sublclass, but what is the third?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on May 08, 2019, 03:16:16 pm

I don't think there is a specifically pacifistic third subclass like there is for the way of tranquility monk and oath of redemption paladin. There's a few subclasses that make the character perhaps less violence focused then other subclasses of that class, protection cleric, divine soul sorcerer, celestial warlocks, maybe even Ancestral Guardian barbarians. But I wouldn't call any of these options pacifistic. I'd be interested to hear if there was a third one I didn't know of though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on May 09, 2019, 07:39:14 am

Does he have to be a combat coward?  I guess it depends on the party but when i think of professional fantasy adventurers, I can't really see cowardice as a viable option.   Its risking horrible death in a pitch black hole as a profession. 

I'd consider forms of cowardice unique to the Dying In A Hole Profession.  He can't handle losing another friend so he's subconsciously resolved to just never have friends, and pushes people away when they get close.  Or maybe he has one specific trigger that makes him freeze up or lose combat discipline, like rats or disease or undead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 09, 2019, 08:37:52 am

I saw a fun twist someone came up with where you play a cowardly/anxious barbarian. The rages are just the stress taking over and triggering a fight reaction instead of flight or freeze, blindly lashing out at whatever perceived threat is nearby out of terror.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 09, 2019, 12:14:09 pm

I just thought of an interesting character idea.
A Neutral Evil character basically ignores morality in the search for something.
My idea is a NE character whose goal is to acquire Respect and Loyalty.
From here we have a choice:Does he only want them for himself, or does he himself give them to others?
 In either case, the character is not going to, in general, act very evil, and probably act good, possibly even lawful good, as that is more efficient for gaining Respect and Loyalty.
 The one that takes it all for himself, his only concern is whether an action is going to accrue him more Loyalty and Respect, with no actual caring for others in any way, shape, or form.
 The second option, giving them to others, I find more interesting, as he essentially has an entirely alternative, blue and orange morale system. He is likely to refuse to loot the corpses of enemies, unless they forfeited respect, then bury them and give them a funeral. He will never betray anyone, for any reason than their own lack of loyalty, and a very large amount of disrespect, not just to him, but to others.
If you have earned his disrespect, most likely by disrespect, or through betrayal (In either case, either of himself, or of others.), he will do anything he likes with you, with the only things limiting him is his desire to retain other people's Respect and Loyalty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 09, 2019, 12:43:12 pm

Both respect and loyalty can be gained through non-"good" means though, and Machiavelli makes the point that while love grants a stronger respect, fear is easier to use and control. Loyalty is basically just "I'll pay you more than they're paying you".

You'd have to make an argument as to why you're specifically going the honorable route (especially when no one is looking) in order for that to really sit well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 09, 2019, 01:43:36 pm

The one who only wants respect never goes the honorable route when he is sure it won't lower his gain of respect and loyalty.

Loyalty is more than just "I'll pay you more than they're paying you".

I didn't say with either of them that they are going the honorable route.
While fear is decent for gaining respect, it is absolutely terrible for gaining genuine loyalty, no matter how much fear that is, as if they think they can get away with betraying you, they will.

The second one is not honorable, he simply has an alternative morality system centered around giving and receiving respect and loyalty. This does not directly translate to honorable, though it may appear similar to it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on May 14, 2019, 07:49:33 am

Alignment should be law/neutral/chaos and reflect only the color of your piece in the grand multiversal chess game the gods of law and chaos are playing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on May 14, 2019, 08:06:31 am

How often does your game touch on anything close to that, anyway? Either very rarely and that's wasted space on the character sheet, or almost exclusively and you're missing out on all of the other stories you could be creating.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on May 14, 2019, 08:17:39 am

Every story is missing out on every other story so I dunno what you're trying to say with that.

Alignment is already a waste of space on the sheet, outside corner cases of alignment specific spells and stuff (which could easily be adjudicated) it just gets in the way, see the entire conversation above

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on May 14, 2019, 09:22:10 am

If gods play chess, then their game certainly does not have only two colors of piece.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on May 14, 2019, 10:03:58 am

I'm of the opinion that alignment should always depend on setting. Good and evil can be a big deal in a Faerûn type land, and order and chaos are very Egyptian, but if we look at world myth in general, the good vs evil paradigm is very much a west Asian (and, by extension, Abrahamic), and law/chaos is sort of a combination of that with a civilization vs wilderness theme that's more common in African traditional religion, although it notably also sort of cropped up independently among some late 18th century protestants. And this is before getting into Eastern works, which besides yin and yang often portray people and beings with an elemental affinity that runs a lot deeper than just having a couple specific "elemental" critters. And I'm sure there's plenty of other examples that I can't reference off-hand.

That's a whole lot of thematic ground that you lose if you just go with Moorcock plus what (if not dealt with directly) often boils down to "self-righteous vs edgy".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 14, 2019, 10:08:38 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on May 14, 2019, 09:22:10 am

If gods play chess, then their game certainly does not have only two colors of piece.

Yes, that's why the alignment has five :P

Quote from: Cruxador on May 14, 2019, 10:03:58 am

I'm of the opinion that alignment should always depend on setting. Good and evil can be a big deal in a Faerûn type land, and order and chaos are very Egyptian, but if we look at world myth in general, the good vs evil paradigm is very much a west Asian (and, by extension, Abrahamic), and law/chaos is sort of a combination of that with a civilization vs wilderness theme that's more common in African traditional religion, although it notably also sort of cropped up independently among some late 18th century protestants. And this is before getting into Eastern works, which besides yin and yang often portray people and beings with an elemental affinity that runs a lot deeper than just having a couple specific "elemental" critters. And I'm sure there's plenty of other examples that I can't reference off-hand.

Norse alignments: Mead, Ale, or Wine

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on May 14, 2019, 10:52:37 am

Quote from: Mephisto on May 14, 2019, 08:06:31 am

How often does your game touch on anything close to that, anyway? Either very rarely and that's wasted space on the character sheet, or almost exclusively and you're missing out on all of the other stories you could be creating.

Depends, honestly.  In an ideal old school game alignment means almost nothing (i vacillate between it reflecting behavior and it being purely a metaphysical tag, and a righteous paladin could be chaotic, his actions furthering the goals of chaos on a timescale no mortal can comprehend ).  But, as you get high level,  you start factoring more directly in the divine conflict and inevitably they get you involved.

But i don't like alignment in general, i think its often restrictive, and very few good characters fall into one category or another.

Anyway, I'm actually starting a game this week.  Online, but with people I know so not the usual online experience.  Going with a homebrew setting, a flat world with the sun in the south and no moon.  No tides, no real seasons (the southern continents are always hot and it gets colder and darker the further north you go, with obligatory Evil Zone in the farthest north where sunlight never reaches)

Don't have any guidance for players at the moment, setting it up as a kind of pseudo uexcrawl.  There's a successi9n war on the northern continent and the lack of manpower means monsters and bandits in civilized lands, and private mercenary bands are becoming profitable.  Gonna start in medias res with a monster hunt that'll lead them to the starting semimegadungeon and give them some side hooks to keep exploring it.  Having fun with the dungeon.

Main 'plot' aside from the war is that the continent to the south is ruled by a cabal of sorcerers from another world, akin to the masters in eador.  They know how to take control of shards and are working to annex the players' world.  Have a few hooks for getting involved there floating around

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 14, 2019, 01:08:37 pm

Why, exactly, would the dividing line be Law/Chaos, when most of Dnd has a more evil/good divide?
Why exactly would a nice person work with a nasty rapist just because the rapist is Lawfully-aligned?
Alignment is not meant to be a restriction anyway, at least in 5e, merely a shorthand how they act.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on May 14, 2019, 02:10:17 pm

Old school dnd used law/chaos with no good/evil axis because it was more in keeping with the fantasy heritage of the game.  Tolkein sure, but especially moorcock, howard, lovecraft, etc. which werent based on good vs evil but more amoral, with a cosmic war between law and chaos that both ultimately inimical to normal people (the corum books conclude with the destruction of both teams for example)

Good and evil didnt appear until 2e, i believe

Its not supposed to be restrictive and yet I often see people putting the cart before the horse, using alignment to define behavior rather than the other way around

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on May 14, 2019, 02:15:11 pm

Alignment discussion is a no-no, there is a thread to contain that discussion linked in the OP.

Please use it instead of this thread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on May 14, 2019, 02:54:11 pm

It doesn't seem like quite as incendiary a topic as it used to be, but fair enough.

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 14, 2019, 01:08:37 pm

Why, exactly, would the dividing line be Law/Chaos, when most of Dnd has a more evil/good divide?
Why exactly would a nice person work with a nasty rapist just because the rapist is Lawfully-aligned?
Alignment is not meant to be a restriction anyway, at least in 5e, merely a shorthand how they act.

I've responded at http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151965.msg7969603#msg7969603 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151965.msg7969603#msg7969603)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on May 14, 2019, 03:12:41 pm

New topic.  I like to keep my monsters mysterious, especially common enemies.  So I've reflavored monstrous humanoids and some monstrosities as fomorians, autochthonic creatures born from rocks and mud in areas the Sunken God's corruption is strong.  They start off small (goblins) but get bigger and more monstrous as they age with no upper limit.  The tarrasque is an ancient fomorian for example.  When they die they turn back into dirt, and I'm thinking each one has a rocky heart with a bit of the Sunken God's blood.  The heart can be prepared with an arcana check to use for a small one-use magic effect, just to add some flavor.  I need to think of good effects though.  I'm thinking ogre hearts will let you boost a level 1 spell to level 2 with a level 1 spell slot, trolls probably a regen effect, but goblins have me stumped, since they're so common.  Maybe a goodberry effect?  Drink the drop of blood inside and you don't have to eat all day?  Want to keep it  minimal, they're not really magic items.

Also considering long term effects of tapping into an ancient evil's power like this.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on May 14, 2019, 03:20:30 pm

Sounds like that would be a good source of healing potions for your setting. Have your players guzzling goblin blood. That also makes healing potions common enough that you can houserule natural hp recovery to be more realistic without it being punitive. As for side effects... Just have your players roll a d20 every time they do this, and increment a number behind your screen if the roll is low. That should be enough to have an effect on the players. As for what it does, maybe just a penalty on interactions with that ancient evil.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on May 14, 2019, 03:32:26 pm

Corruption mechanics. You could probably steal something from the 40k RPGs.

As for goblin blood, how about something useful but so situationally that it doesn't really matter? A short bonus to hiding, cheap disengage, upgrading normal -> low-light -> dark vision.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on May 14, 2019, 03:35:37 pm

Doesn't seem great to give a really common item a situational use. At that point you may as well say they don't have enough power to do anything and save the players from hoarding the things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 14, 2019, 03:47:56 pm

Darkvision might be useful, but if everyone in your party has it its not that useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on May 14, 2019, 05:20:13 pm

Maybe goblin heart blood could be some sort of replacement for (part of) the gp costs of crafting items and scribing scrolls and things? That way one goblin heart isn't terribly useful, but slaughtering a truckload of goblins gets you half off a new pair of magic boots or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on May 14, 2019, 05:46:18 pm

This reminds me that I think there was some sort of rumor in my group's setting that halfling blood has a silencing effect, especially when used on door hinges.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on May 15, 2019, 05:47:55 am

So an idea I had today was borne of scanning through the spell list for a Pathfinder Cleric. The spell Enemy's Heart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enemy-s-heart) would make a great enchantment to put on a dagger, and I thought of making a mission objective for a quest out if it.

I figured I'd make a +1 dagger with 3/day uses of Enemy's Heart, and the PC has a mission to assassinate a target using the dagger.

This got me thinking of other items that could be turned into objects which a PC must use to complete a quest. What things do you guys reckon would make good quest items, not as a McGuffin to find, but as a tool to use to accomplish your objective? I'm really struggling to figure out stuff to use that's not a weapon or a weapon analogue, such as a wand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 15, 2019, 07:46:37 am

In the final quest of the Thieves Guild line in Oblivion, you have to bring an arrow with a key as its head that you have to shoot into a lock from across the room. The same quest also has you use magical jumping boots to survive a long fall.

And if you're looking for items to use as tools for a quest, why not actual tools and trinkets? A silent hammer. A bottle of special perfume to Charm a guard. A belt with a coded message written on it. A gnomish recording phonograph to eavesdrop a confession. A pair of goggles so dark that they make you blind to everything but a monster that otherwise shines like the sun.

A Hand of Glory, in any form of the myth, would be useful for a sneak (whether it turns you invisible, shines a light only you can see, entrances anyone but you looking at it, or whatever).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 15, 2019, 08:57:19 am

I still like that idea I saw one time of a sword that causes emotional wounds.


Want a quest item? How about an important person is inflicted with an ailment that can be cured with a chunk of mellifed man? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellified_man) I suppose that's a bit McGuffin-y though...

Dimensional needle and thread? Use it to stitch reality rifts back together.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on May 15, 2019, 09:22:37 am

Quote from: Kagus on May 15, 2019, 08:57:19 am

I still like that idea I saw one time of a sword that causes emotional wounds.

Pathfinder has a spell for that, sort of. Enchant your gimp suit with the Sadomasochism spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 15, 2019, 02:34:52 pm

https://reclaimthewild.net/
This is a Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild tabletop game. I have not read much of the manual, but what I have seems interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on May 15, 2019, 03:44:11 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 15, 2019, 02:34:52 pm

https://reclaimthewild.net/
This is a Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild tabletop game. I have not read much of the manual, but what I have seems interesting.

Interesting indeed. I have a pdf that contains 5th Edition versions of Hylian races, but a proper LoZ tabletop game could be very cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on May 17, 2019, 11:50:17 am

There are people near me that play 3.5 DND. Sweet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 17, 2019, 11:57:40 am

Quote from: Sirus on May 15, 2019, 03:44:11 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 15, 2019, 02:34:52 pm

https://reclaimthewild.net/
This is a Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild tabletop game. I have not read much of the manual, but what I have seems interesting.

Interesting indeed. I have a pdf that contains 5th Edition versions of Hylian races, but a proper LoZ tabletop game could be very cool.

In case it's not obvious, its free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2019, 03:28:17 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 17, 2019, 11:57:40 am

Quote from: Sirus on May 15, 2019, 03:44:11 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 15, 2019, 02:34:52 pm

https://reclaimthewild.net/
This is a Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild tabletop game. I have not read much of the manual, but what I have seems interesting.

Interesting indeed. I have a pdf that contains 5th Edition versions of Hylian races, but a proper LoZ tabletop game could be very cool.

In case it's not obvious, its free.

Yeah, I've been looking over the core book. It looks rather nice, especially for a fan project, and the mechanics don't look half bad either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on May 17, 2019, 09:34:33 pm

just wait until Nintendo hears about this...:(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on May 17, 2019, 11:08:41 pm

We've been running Fire Emblem games on this very forum for years and Nintendo hasn't come knocking. Yet.

/me knocks on wood

I think as long as it stays relatively quiet it should be okay. Besides, it'd be relatively easy to convert the system to a more generic setting if worst came to worst.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 29, 2019, 01:14:24 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/cP9jUUD.jpg)

*cough cough*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 12:02:39 pm

That is quite clever. However, it takes a second spell slot, and takes up your action to move 30 feet, so the spell Fly is all-around superior.

Actually, a warlock with an imp, or pseudodragon, familiar can have the familiar carry up to 30 feet of stuff, so he can just carry a full-size gnome at all times, or nine Reduced gnomes, and without an action.

All of this, however, does not work if you actually have the gnome's equipment count, unless the gnome has bare-bones equipment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 29, 2019, 12:09:39 pm

Doesn't the arcane trickster get a special mage hand though? That could work...

Wait, can tricksters even cast reduce? That does sound like something they should have access to, honestly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 12:12:33 pm

At eighth level, the Arcane Trickster can select any Wizard spell, instead of just an Enchantment or Illusion spell.
Also, the Reduce spellcaster, the Arcane Trickster, and the gnome do not need to be the same character, they could be three different characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 29, 2019, 01:52:23 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 12:12:33 pm

At eighth level, the Arcane Trickster can select any Wizard spell, instead of just an Enchantment or Illusion spell.
Also, the Reduce spellcaster, the Arcane Trickster, and the gnome do not need to be the same character, they could be three different characters.

Yeah, but D&D doesn't like you to get above level 5, because some people are still hitting things with pieces of metal while others can summon angels or fly or turn invisible. I think the solution in recent editions has been to make it so you can't buy nicer pieces of metal to hit things with, because that's the one where you get "too good."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 02:15:38 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 29, 2019, 01:52:23 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 12:12:33 pm

At eighth level, the Arcane Trickster can select any Wizard spell, instead of just an Enchantment or Illusion spell.
Also, the Reduce spellcaster, the Arcane Trickster, and the gnome do not need to be the same character, they could be three different characters.

Yeah, but D&D doesn't like you to get above level 5, because some people are still hitting things with pieces of metal while others can summon angels or fly or turn invisible. I think the solution in recent editions has been to make it so you can't buy nicer pieces of metal to hit things with, because that's the one where you get "too good."

Yes, but this is a discussion over Arcane Trickster casting this spell, and this is one level above when you get the your 2nd level spell slot. This is an intrinsic part of this conversation, disregarding that the game doesn't want you over fifth level, as that isn't really part of this conversation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 29, 2019, 03:04:46 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 02:15:38 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 29, 2019, 01:52:23 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 12:12:33 pm

At eighth level, the Arcane Trickster can select any Wizard spell, instead of just an Enchantment or Illusion spell.
Also, the Reduce spellcaster, the Arcane Trickster, and the gnome do not need to be the same character, they could be three different characters.

Yeah, but D&D doesn't like you to get above level 5, because some people are still hitting things with pieces of metal while others can summon angels or fly or turn invisible. I think the solution in recent editions has been to make it so you can't buy nicer pieces of metal to hit things with, because that's the one where you get "too good."

Yes, but this is a discussion over Arcane Trickster casting this spell, and this is one level above when you get the your 2nd level spell slot. This is an intrinsic part of this conversation, disregarding that the game doesn't want you over fifth level, as that isn't really part of this conversation.

Ah. You'd said 8th level, which is why I made the comment. Level 4 is doable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 29, 2019, 03:55:57 pm

I mean one above the level a Arcane Trickster gets 2nd level spell slots, which is seven.
I was simply answering them about Arcane Trickster being able to cast the spell, not stating that it would be likely they get the chance.

This can be done at a mere 3rd level, just need an Arcane Trickster, and someone else to cast Reduce. Oh, and someone small enough for it to work, in best case the Arcane Trickster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on May 29, 2019, 04:20:04 pm

Uh, don't think the arcane trickster hand is stronger or faster or anything like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 29, 2019, 05:01:03 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on May 29, 2019, 04:20:04 pm

Uh, don't think the arcane trickster hand is stronger or faster or anything like that.

Starting at 3rd level it's invisible, can do more things (like pick pockets/locks), and you can use your Cunning Action to control the hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 30, 2019, 12:33:07 pm

A regular person can get a Mage Hand to move 30 feet a round. An Arcane Trickster can get it to move 60 feet a round, thanks to their being able to control it with a bonus action, or move it 30 feet and do an action.
Also, as Kagus said, it is invisible, so it looks more like you're flying than just being picked up by a glowing hand. This may be considered a drawback, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on May 30, 2019, 12:37:15 pm

The hand may be invisible but surely the pinched fabric at your neck is a dead giveaway as you dangle your way to freedom.

Assuming you have to target something that isn't a creature, however D&D words it. If you can command the hand to touch yourself, then go wild.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 30, 2019, 12:46:26 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on May 30, 2019, 12:37:15 pm

If you can command the hand to touch yourself, then go wild.

Intentional double entendre?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on May 30, 2019, 12:53:55 pm

It's the way I wrote it initially. Proofread my post, did a small internal "heh", and decided to keep it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on June 13, 2019, 09:30:13 am

Melbourne folks!
I'm a bit late with this - I should have posted earlier but it didn't occur to me 'til now - but tomorrow, Good Games Melbourne, a gaming store in the CBD, is having their Free RPG Day. I went last year and it was pretty sweet!
Unfortunately I won't be able to make it this time, but if you're interested it shouldn't be too late to grab one of the last seats at a table. There are a few spots left in D&D, Legend of the Five Rings and a Conan RPG. Unfortunately Call of Cthulhu is full, otherwise I might have had to expend the immense effort to shuffle my schedule in order to attend, haha...

I definitely recommend it to anyone with even a faint interest in tabletop RPGs. Last time was definitely a positive experience - even if it didn't end up getting me to start being more involved in gaming like I'd hoped. ^_^;
Also they give out free goodies to participants!
I wish I'd known about it earlier, but somehow I only found out it was on a couple of days ago. Alas.


Edit: oops, accidentally hit submit too soon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 09:52:47 am

So.

The D20 wiki for the mage hand says it cannot activate magical items.  I presume this is for things that require some kind of active magical channeling, rather than, you know "Push a button".

I say that, because an immovable rod is a magical item, that is activated by -- you guessed it-- PUSHING A BUTTON.


Now:

The Mage Hand can only carry 10 lbs, and can only move 30 feet away from its user before being dispelled. 
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Mage%20Hand#content

An immovable rod weighs just a few pounds, and is activated by depressing the button socketed into the end of it.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Immovable%20Rod#content


Clever use of a good length of rope, mage hands, and immovable rods, could be used to make a "very sluggish" "Magic carpet".

Imagine:

The rope is tied to the immovable rods using timber hitch knots.
https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/timber-hitch

Between the rods, the rope is woven into something resembling a cargo net.

Riders sit in the netting.

At any given point, the weight of the riders is sustained by the immovable rods, NOT the mage hands.  The apparatus moves "sluglike", in that it incrementally moves each rod forward slightly by deactivating it, tugging on the netting so that it moves forward/upward/whatever, then activating it again, in a rhythmic, repetitious pattern.

Since each rod can carry up to 8000lbs of dead weight, having such a contraption made from several rods, an entire party, and their loot, could be "slugged" along, even over a very large expansive crevasse.  That you can move a mage hand up to 30ft at a whack, even with its 10lb restriction (as long as the weight of the netting itself tied to it does not exceed 8lbs) the combined weight of the net and rod at each moment of movement will be within its limitations, and cloud potentially move quite quickly.

Being a net, the party could look down through it, and even shoot arrows down through it, without much issue.  Being sufficiently high up (such as in open terrain), would make them vulnerable only to flyers and mage fire. (and if they are using fire proof rope, and have suitable tower shields to sit on, even that might not be a problem.)



Sorry, I imagine silly things like this when I read about nonsense items like these.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 13, 2019, 10:03:36 am

Restrictions like Mage Hand and Magic Items are generally restrictive, as are D&D rules in general  ::) , so it technically shouldn't be able to work an immovable rod despite how little sense it makes that it can't.

That said there are plenty of spells to make small assistants or invisible forces to do tasks for you, so you can Mage Hand the slug-rug to move and have the rods activated/deactivated by homonculi, or familiars or unseen servants. I think US can activate items for you anyway. Makes it more awkward, but it should work out about as fast.

It'll be very slow anyway since it only moves as fast as there are mage hands to shuffle it along

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on June 13, 2019, 10:07:57 am

And pressing the button requires an action as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 10:25:23 am

This kind of thing would be "Unrealistic as all hell" to try to simulate in a battle. 

Rather, it is for when the DM goes "The tunnel you have been following lets out into a massive underground grotto. The stone path abruptly ends where once a stone bridge had been constructed. An ancient cave-in has collapsed the bridge, and now the path terminates at an abrupt precipice, going 500 feet straight down.  In the gloom of the cavern, you cannot even make out the bottom."

Just after you collected several hundred pounds worth of really kick assed swag, but triggered the trap that shuts the main entrance you came in through down.


You can go "CRAZY DWARF TRICK BEEOTCH!" and blow several hours time to get all your shit over the precipice without any hitches, and sidestep whatever horrors the DM had INTENDED for you to encounter in trying to climb down the side of the wall (while carrying enough gold to mash you flat!), and then try to find a way back up again after trying to navigate the hazards on the cavern floor below.


Alternatively--

"Oh yeah, one of the magical items in your epic mountain of loot prevents you from using any kind of fast traveling, such as dimension door. You are totally over encumbered. How do you get this shit home now bruh?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 13, 2019, 10:31:12 am

I think it'd be cool as a show of lavish decadence by mages. A carriage suspended by a series of immovable rods on ropes with the buttons pressed by finely dressed attendants, who may also be the source of a few mage hands so the movement isn't a literal crawl. Like some sort of upside down spider carriage slowly drifting along the street. Combine with a method for the caster to fly all the time for a 'the ground does not deserve to touch my feet' kind of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 10:43:31 am

If you are going to do THAT, then go with a bizzarro flintstones mobile.

You know fred's car?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/93/a4/9293a4f74903befbf93046e4ee20250b.jpg)

OK-- Now, imagine that the netting is tied into a continuous "Loop", like a conveyor belt.  Embedded into the net are the rods. The rods on the "bottom" are activated, and supply the support.  The net moves along over the top of the "wheels" (big stone cylinders), and the rest of the "car" is supported on the extending axles protruding from the sides of the cylinders, as shown.

After that, you just have timing of activation and deactivation of the rods as the limiting factor, with a max movement speed of 30ft per individual action.


You can of course, make it however ornate, overly greebled, and ostentatious as you so desire.  The upside:  A mechanical widget cog could be doing all the button pushing as the rods go into position, and the net is being turned along by a single mage hand cranking on an overly gear-ratioed turn handle.  Dress it in a glove for added audaciousness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on June 13, 2019, 10:57:16 am

How are you dealing with the fact that it takes an action to deactivate the rod, and an action to activate it though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 10:59:40 am

It takes an action to PURPOSEFULLY activate the rod.

Since it is activated via a simple application of pressure to the sensitive end, this is an OBVIOUS DM "gotcha".  "oops, that carefully oriented immovable rod you suspended in the air, in the path of the rampaging hell beast, so that it would act as an impromptu lance, held in place by 8000lbs of resistance?  yeah-- you had the button end facing the monster.  On impact, the button got pushed."


We are abusing this same kind of logic:

The turn crank drives a little embedded gear, who's lobes are spaced precisely to touch, and depress, the button on the end of the rod as the conveyor moves it into place.

The hand is not pressing buttons. It is turning the crank.  The mechanical action of the crank is pushing the buttons.


The DM will likely balk, but will have difficulty finding a valid reason to disqualify.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 13, 2019, 11:32:53 am

"You're abusing the wording of the text to go against the intention of the writing" is always a valid reason to disqualify.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 11:37:13 am

Could also point out "item type is 'adventuring gear', not 'magic (or wondrous) item'."


Does it help any that I see this kind of thing being created by a gnome?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 13, 2019, 12:15:33 pm

What's the point, though? Ultimately it's still just you kludging together rules as written, rules as intended, rules as assumed and real-world physics ad hoc to make something strange that "should" work, and there's infinite ways to do that on your own time but ultimately none of them make much difference; all you're going to get from this machine over an arbitrarily stronger flying carpet is the other players' eyes glazing over while you congratulate yourself for being clever and then going on with the actual game. It will not, in a very important sense, be "real" in the consensus of the game, just "that thing wierd built" that's going to run headlong into Rule 0 if you insist on taking up table time going on about it or just remain an amorphous thing that does a thing otherwise. It's similar to how rules lawyers will bend the alignment rules into knots to justify their character being a dick because of some random nugget of their backstory and so on and so forth: ultimately the only question is how long you want to spend proving to yourself that you've won an argument with yourself and how much of it you expect your audience to sit through.

Theoretical optimization is fun, but ultimately why argue about it? It works the way you want in your own head, and that's the only place it'll ever actually exist, so ... congratulations for winning?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 12:18:15 pm

Context is a thing, Trekkin.
Grim Portent noted that he could see a posh wizard using an overly elaborate conveyance like this as background color.
I countered that if you are going to go that route (eg, background color), you should do something more like the bizzarro flintstone mobile, and then described it and how it worked.



The slug-rug is an ad-hoc player invention.
{and since you mention "no fun" rule 0, I remind you that activation of the rod is a move action, and does not have a skill check. This means it does not require computation or DM time when used in the manner described outside of combat, as stated in context. So No. It's a "No, let's NOT go into the dark abyss, Let's do this instead." which only has a story time passage cost.}

Flying track car is more a GM created flavor piece (You know, setting color) that would leverage real items (that could potentially get 5 finger discounted in passing).


Because the question of activation actions was cited, I gave an obvious out to explain how it could be evaded.  I approached it from the "as player" angle, since that seemed the thrust of the question, even though it was not the intention of the description.



Also, "Congratulations for winning" sarcasm applies to ALL fantasy role play.  If you are going to go there, you dont belong in this thread, IMO.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 13, 2019, 12:39:34 pm

Wait, immovable rods are Uncommon? Is it just me, or all the coolest magic items Uncommon?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 12:42:13 pm

If they were common, the world would be full of insanity, and impossible to relate to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on June 13, 2019, 12:43:12 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 13, 2019, 10:43:31 am

OK-- Now, imagine that the netting is tied into a continuous "Loop", like a conveyor belt.  Embedded into the net are the rods. The rods on the "bottom" are activated, and supply the support.  The net moves along over the top of the "wheels" (big stone cylinders), and the rest of the "car" is supported on the extending axles protruding from the sides of the cylinders, as shown.

You've just invented a tank tread. Considering the amount of immovable rods you'd need would be impractical, both for cost and for the hassle of carrying them around on the off-chance that you happen to want to rig this up, I reckon a sky tank is a much more interesting direction to take this line of thought. On the other hand, once you've got flying tanks, what more do you need?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on June 13, 2019, 12:51:20 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on June 13, 2019, 12:43:12 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 13, 2019, 10:43:31 am

OK-- Now, imagine that the netting is tied into a continuous "Loop", like a conveyor belt.  Embedded into the net are the rods. The rods on the "bottom" are activated, and supply the support.  The net moves along over the top of the "wheels" (big stone cylinders), and the rest of the "car" is supported on the extending axles protruding from the sides of the cylinders, as shown.

You've just invented a tank tread. Considering the amount of immovable rods you'd need would be impractical, both for cost and for the hassle of carrying them around on the off-chance that you happen to want to rig this up, I reckon a sky tank is a much more interesting direction to take this line of thought. On the other hand, once you've got flying tanks, what more do you need?

Underground attack helicopters?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 12:53:47 pm

Is context really this hard?

Ok, Big spoiler:

As grim stated, he thought seeing an overly dramatic display of impractical wealth by a wizard to travel by such a means would be cool.

This pretty much implies "The GM says some NPC prick is showing off how insanely wealthy he is."  Impracticality is kinda the point at this point. 


I said, If you are going to go there, then you should go this route-- and suggested the tread car.


BOTH would have impractical numbers of these very expensive rods, and would be shameless displays of wealth.

The former would be something more a human or high elven wizard would do.  The latter is more what a gnomish wizard would do.





Neither were intended to be done by player characters.





Slug-Rug is outlandish, but can be done realistically with just 3 rods.  You could arguably get that in a loot chest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 13, 2019, 12:57:33 pm

Quote from: wierd on June 13, 2019, 12:18:15 pm

Also, "Congratulations for winning" sarcasm applies to ALL fantasy role play.  If you are going to go there, you dont belong in this thread, IMO.

I'd actually argue that its inapplicability is foundational to roleplaying games in general. They're multiplayer for a reason.

If you want some fancy flying carriage made of immovable rods as cool background flavor, great -- but as a DM, you can just do that; you can just put it in the game and let the players ooh and aah at it and there you go. If you want to spend a lot of time detailing to yourself how it works, that's fine too, but the thing is that unless they open the hood, that information won't enter the consensus understanding of the game, so in a functional sense it was never real, however true it is. It's the same way that you can spend ages detailing what's in the castle three kingdoms over the players are never going to visit and justifying it down to the last gold piece. If they don't ask, it's not in the shared construct of the game. It's just world-building solitaire.

Similarly, if as a player you want to build the thing, there's a question of whether the rules minutae matter. If you came to my table wanting to build it, I'd stat it as a modified carpet of flying and compute the price from that, and the details are up to whatever you think is cool. Immovable rods, enchanted swans, a boat that floats in a tiny flying ocean, whatever; it works how you want. Go nuts. If you want to be able to pull the rods out of it for other purposes, then yeah, it's going to cost as much as that many immovable rods, but ultimately whether or not the rules support the literal nuts and bolts is immaterial. Again, nobody's stopping you proving to yourself how it works, but ultimately they're not going to dispute it, either. It's a prop in the story everybody's creating together.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a waste of time to establish in detail how it works by fiat; world-building is important, after all. I'm wondering, earnestly, if there's ever a context in which it needs defending on rules grounds instead of "I made it and we're all okay with it", whether from a player or the GM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on June 13, 2019, 01:09:16 pm

Sure.  The other side of rule zero, coupled with a very good observe roll.

When describing an object, should a player ask about it, you base your description based on how good a check they did.  If they got a really good check, you describe how it works for them.

Once they know, they can suggest doing something funny while in passing.


Such as, discretely activating one of the "passivated" rods being carried over the top of the conveyor, with a single, fast, and discrete finger jab.

This would jam the car HARD in mid air, while whatever inertial energy involved would still be in play.  Our gnomish prick would go flying out of his overly elaborate flying throne, to the delight of the children.





This is to say, this kind of attention to detail in the writeup phase is less about being the piss whizzard (http://gunshowcomic.com/471) (who simply cannot abide a derail or slight against his carefully crafted story arc, or debasement of his world building fetishes) and more providing every possible level of detail, including the microscopic, should the players ask-- as an open invitation for them to grab that, and run with it in whatever direction they so please.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on June 13, 2019, 01:41:05 pm

Its all well and good as a piece of background fluff, but when the players inevitably end up chasing it or steal it to try and get out of town while being chased, then all of a sudden they and you are going to have to figure out how the thing actually works.

Quote from: wierd on June 13, 2019, 11:37:13 am

Could also point out "item type is 'adventuring gear', not 'magic (or wondrous) item'."


Does it help any that I see this kind of thing being created by a gnome?

Minor nitpick: Magic items are considered adventuring gear. Wondrous items are a subset of magic items. and the full list for the immovable rod is adventuring gear (rod), and rods are are also a subset of magic items.

Quote from: wierd on June 13, 2019, 10:59:40 am

It takes an action to PURPOSEFULLY activate the rod.

Since it is activated via a simple application of pressure to the sensitive end, this is an OBVIOUS DM "gotcha".  "oops, that carefully oriented immovable rod you suspended in the air, in the path of the rampaging hell beast, so that it would act as an impromptu lance, held in place by 8000lbs of resistance?  yeah-- you had the button end facing the monster.  On impact, the button got pushed."


We are abusing this same kind of logic:

I mean, a DM could do that, but there's a lot of easier ways to do this that don't require saying someone accidentally disabled the rod without using an action.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 13, 2019, 06:53:37 pm

As an aside, one of my favorite DM trick traps has always been the Invisibility spell.

I'm assuming 90% of players have only ever looked at the spell as a means of stealth to bypass enemies. But there's actually a big bag of tricks that you can use with casting it on objects.

One of my all time best was a sheet of invisible iron halfway across a pit trap, hanging down from the ceiling. The player tries to jump across the 10 ft. wide pit? Bang! Straight into the iron, then splat! Down the hole.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 13, 2019, 06:58:17 pm

I just realized that you can cast Invisibility on other people's clothes. If I'm ever playing a quirky magic-user with the spell, I can interrupt a dramatic moment with instant naked.
Unfortunately, RAW, you can't do that in 5e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 13, 2019, 07:39:25 pm

No, surely not, worn items generally get a save...  Aha (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#object)!

So you have to deliver the touch spell (though familiars make that easier IIRC) but the bearer gets a will save, whether you target themself or merely their garment.  Magic items also get a save, higher bonus is used, yadda yadda.

So... what's the XP for a level 0 commoner killing a clever idea?

Edit: Although if you have a stealthy... or perhaps even *invisible* familiar... They likely won't be aware of your attempt.  They'd have to notice your spellcasting, which might be a decent check if their attention is elsewhere.  Or you're invisible.  If they aren't "foes", your own theoretical invisibility wouldn't drop.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 13, 2019, 07:55:48 pm

Now, why would worn and carried items be arbitrarily granted greater resistance to a spell's effect? Illogical!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on June 13, 2019, 07:59:28 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 13, 2019, 07:55:48 pm

Now, why would worn and carried items be arbitrarily granted greater resistance to a spell's effect? Illogical!

Because it's attuned to a soul.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 13, 2019, 08:06:12 pm

Probably for the same reason that some random commoner gets a "will save" against Invisibility :P
Presumably that arcane force runs up against some subconscious ego which resists outside influence.  Will saves are generally subconscious unless you happen to see the weird mage make funny hand gestures at you.  Their energies try to overrule your will.

Why wouldn't that apply to your clothing, your weapon?  It's like someone patting your car hood as they walk past - it feels personal.  So, in this setting's magic, perhaps it *is* personal.  You channel your will through your sword, like it's an extension of yourself.  The wizard tells your sword to grow red-hot with Heat Metal and you say no, I will not.

Edit:  Without even being *aware*.  You naturally resist outside influence on that part of yourself, your weapon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 13, 2019, 08:12:28 pm

5e Invisibility does not have a save at all.
However, it only works on creatures; You can't cast it specifically on their clothing, or any other object, regardless of being worn or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 13, 2019, 08:15:40 pm

In 5e worn items are immune to being set on fire by spells, and it doesn't even take a save!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 13, 2019, 08:19:39 pm

5e is great and I'm glad my group switched to it, but it sure simplified things a lot.  I have very mixed feelings about that, but they trend towards the positive.  That doesn't mean I don't miss the ridiculous depth of 3.5 splat sometimes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 13, 2019, 10:21:16 pm

My group has stuck with Pathfinder 1st edition, and has no interest in swapping to D&D 5th edition or Pathfinder 2nd edition for the fact that they simply remove too much player agency in quirky stuff you can do with rules.

Tonight, my players get their final session against the halfling bard that's been trying to steal their solid gold sarcophagus they've been guarding. I wonder if they'll see through his cunning disguise before he steals it from under their noses?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 14, 2019, 12:16:37 am

Quote from: Jimmy on June 13, 2019, 06:53:37 pm

As an aside, one of my favorite DM trick traps has always been the Invisibility spell.

I'm assuming 90% of players have only ever looked at the spell as a means of stealth to bypass enemies. But there's actually a big bag of tricks that you can use with casting it on objects.

One of my all time best was a sheet of invisible iron halfway across a pit trap, hanging down from the ceiling. The player tries to jump across the 10 ft. wide pit? Bang! Straight into the iron, then splat! Down the hole.

https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/asimo/grimtooths-traps/

Quote

Inform the delvers that they sense magic coming from the corridor ahead of them. A detection spell will reveal a pit beneath the floor, hidden from view by an illusion spell. The delvers, not wishing to be surprised by whatever lurks in the pit below, will probably cast some sort of magic to dispel the illusion. Lurking inside the pit is a gorgon...

Most of them are outlandishly silly or handwave-y, but I like the hidden gorgon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on June 14, 2019, 07:10:15 pm

Oh, wow, this is where that's from.  That's one of my favorite floor traps besides the "10'x10' pit filled with gelatinous cube" and "dispel magic dispels the conjured floor" stunts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on June 15, 2019, 09:11:50 am

Since when did dungeon design become a Kaizo Mario game? That sort of instant-death-lolz might get a few guffaws out of the DM but it'd just piss off most players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 15, 2019, 10:06:32 am

It's always been that way for some groups, all the way back to first ed.  Serious dungeon crawlers are pretty into surviving mega-dungeons that are laid out with the most lethal possible traps for them to overcome.

Personally, while I can enjoy the occasional crawl, I'm vastly more invested in stories and characters than semi-plausible deathtrap dungeons built by deranged wizards with entirely too much xp to burn and far too much time on their hands.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 15, 2019, 10:30:02 am

Traps in particular are way over-used in dungeons and mostly boring to deal with. Oh man, an electrified door knob. Pendulum blade in the ceiling. There goes my HP. Sooooo scary, I'm getting so much investment out of this interaction.

The single best trap experience I've ever had was trying to get the party over a ten-foot deep pit in a narrow hallway, and that was only because we all fucked up and mostly did damage to each other, which was hilarious.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 15, 2019, 11:28:56 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://media.oglaf.com/comic/trapmaster.jpg)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://media.oglaf.com/comic/gravity-masonry.jpg)

Oglaf has the best traps... And for being a nominally NSFW comic, that word has a bizarrely tame meaning in this case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on June 15, 2019, 12:14:07 pm

"nominally"

Many of Oglaf's pages (especially the early ones) are basically porn. It's NSFW with the occasional non-NSFW thrown in for flavor.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 15, 2019, 12:34:01 pm

Quote from: Sirus on June 15, 2019, 12:14:07 pm

"nominally"

Many of Oglaf's pages (especially the early ones) are basically porn. It's NSFW with the occasional non-NSFW thrown in for flavor.

It was, yes, but then they got kinda distracted by the jokes and now they need to remember to include the nudity on occasion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 16, 2019, 10:46:50 am

So it seems possible DnD 6th Edition might end up being 4th Edition 2: Electric Boogaloo. (https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dungeons-and-dragons-6th-edition)

For those of you who hasn't followed BG3 interviews, another thing that Swen thinks is bad about DnD is to hit rolls, because missing is boring.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on June 16, 2019, 12:34:30 pm

Quote

“In some ways – especially in tabletop, because we have 45 years of history – it’s kinda fun to have someone smart who’s not you say: ‘you should consider changing this’.”

He's aware that roleplaying games are actually played and iterated on by a substantial a community of people some of whom are smart and all of whom aren't him, right? Wasn't getting these people's feedback half the point of the big open playtest? Do D&D team members not swing by major gaming forums to test the waters occasionally?

Quote

Mearls acknowledges there were “a lot of unchallenged assumptions” made during the design of fifth edition, which “we just implemented. But this is why it’s fun to be extending out to the gaming audience, growing our audience, getting more perspectives, and new channels of feedback. It’s been pretty exciting.”

Then what the hell was the point of the playtest at all?

Quote from: scriver on June 16, 2019, 10:46:50 am

So it seems possible DnD 6th Edition might end up being 4th Edition 2: Electric Boogaloo. (https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dungeons-and-dragons-6th-edition)

For those of you who hasn't followed BG3 interviews, another thing that Swen thinks is bad about DnD is to hit rolls, because missing is boring.

I'm not really getting what you're getting n this, I don't think 4e's design philosophy will ever again grace a major D&D game - at most it might be a white wolf type thing where they do a 4e anniversary edition.

But I do agree missing is boring. The thing is, everything about basic attacks is a bit boring, and that's sort of an unavoidable problem because every basic attack is something you do all the time in the game, even if you modify it somehow. I do think scrapping to-hit rolls, making armor provide damage reduction, and (taking a page from games like Riddle of Steel and Song of Swords) adding focus to feints and counters or result in a substantially better game. I don't really agree that 5e's version of spell slots is all that hard to understand though, it's just the legacy terminology that makes it less clear to new players.

It would be cool if they experimented a little further with different classes having different class mechanics. For example, a sorcerer might lack a spell slot system and have unlimited casts but roll a random effect, modified by charisma, spell level, and I guess character level, with one possible outcome being that your highest currently available spell level is no longer available until a long rest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 16, 2019, 12:45:50 pm

Well, for me, 4th edition very much has a "let's take things that's working for all these fresh and new and super popular MMORPGames and make that the basis for this edition" philosophy.

The linked interview is basically Mearls going "let's take things that's working for [this new and popular computer game developer] and make that the basis for the next edition".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 16, 2019, 01:05:48 pm

It's strange that they'd want to deviate from 5e radically. It's had its criticisms but it unquestionably elevated both DnD and tabletop gaming in general to a whole new level of mainstream popularity. When people hear about me playing DnD now they most tell me they want to play too, but never took the plunge, which is not at all what the dominant attitude used to be.

I'm not against trying something new - god knows 5e is often a meatpoint +Infinity fest, but it's not the attitude I expected. Hopefully they'll be more novel than trying the 4e formula again.

Everybody keeps on playing "their" edition of DnD, either officially or through clones. We've still got 4e groups, 3e groups, 2e groups, and even 1e groups. Undoubtedly there will be a huge glut of 5e groups even in the 6e era with how the population's boosted.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on June 16, 2019, 01:41:23 pm

The main thing I got from that interview is that 6e is at least another 2-3 years away. Most of the stuff talked about seemed hypothetical, aside from BGIII being considered canon for the Forgotten Realms. Considering their goal is to hype interest for a game that comes out in a year, its not too surprised they're talking so glowingly about Larian (although they definitely seem to enjoy working with them).

Also, isn't Mearls the guy in charge of lore/fluff for 5e and its Crawford who is in charge of mechanical stuff like spell slots?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on June 16, 2019, 02:19:29 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 16, 2019, 01:05:48 pm

Also, isn't Mearls the guy in charge of lore/fluff for 5e and its Crawford who is in charge of mechanical stuff like spell slots?

Unless something has changed, he's still the big boss. He may focus more on the fluff on a day to day basis, but something as significant as replacing the spell slot mechanic would definitely involve him heavily in the decision making.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 17, 2019, 04:31:09 pm

Hey, is anyone interested of playing a game of Masks: the Next Generation on this forum? I would like to know if there is any interest before making a thread.
It is not strictly necessary to buy the books to play, as the playbooks and additional rules are free on their site. Just remember that "Roll + Label" means roll 2d6 + Label. The rest of the basic rules can then be inferred from the "basic moves".
 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on June 17, 2019, 05:04:23 pm

Yeah, sure. I've played a couple games of masks, though none of them seem to have survived very long.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 17, 2019, 05:10:47 pm

I'd prefer not to GM myself, but if no one wants to instead, I will.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on June 17, 2019, 06:20:47 pm

Consider me interested. Do you have any convenient links I could look at?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 17, 2019, 06:29:32 pm

Masks home. (https://www.magpiegames.com/masks/)
Where you can get the playbooks and moves for free. (https://www.magpiegames.com/masks/masks-playbooks-moves/)
My currently favorite actual play podcast of Masks. Scroll down to the bottom to Final Hazard Sacrifice 01: Not DeSnott for Masks gameplay, almost all of the non-season one stuff is not Masks. (https://player.fm/series/series-2313819)

In case you don't know, playbooks are like two-page classes.

And I honestly don't know how well it translates to Play by Post.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on June 17, 2019, 07:38:21 pm

I have for a while suspected that Powered-by-the-Apocalypse games might translate better than most systems to Play by Post, since they don't use initiative and are instead more a matter of action-reaction, though that conjecture is entirely unsupported by any actual data and may in fact be entirely false.

Speaking of PbtA games, I recently ran my first session of Dungeon World, in which the players accepted payment from goblins (in the form of magical seeds) to stop dwarves from chopping down trees to make siege engines to kill them, one player got kidnapped by a dryad who pulled him into her tree and tried steal his literal heart, and the other got his bow stolen by a satyr and received a lucky horseshoe when he found it again. Then they went to raid the dwarf fortress to try to earn some actual money, fought a swarm of fire beetles on the way, rescued an arrogant elf warrior they met before, and had a few fights with dwarves here and there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on June 17, 2019, 09:13:14 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on June 17, 2019, 07:38:21 pm

I have for a while suspected that Powered-by-the-Apocalypse games might translate better than most systems to Play by Post, since they don't use initiative and are instead more a matter of action-reaction, though that conjecture is entirely unsupported by any actual data and may in fact be entirely false.

It does work well in a play by post format in my experience.  It was just a single game, but ran for a long time and managed to maintain momentum for a large part of it.

That said, the only game system I've played that doesn't seem to work particularly well with play by post is Fate.  My game group has tried it 3 or 4 times now and it just never seems to work right.  People never remember to use invokes or compels at appropriate times because a lot of the spontaneity is lost in this format.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on June 17, 2019, 10:04:50 pm

In the circles within which I revolve, I've most typically heard of Dungeon World as a sort of "worst of both worlds" combination of D&D tropes and PbtA mechanics, but it sounds like it can capture fairy shenanigans quite nicely.

Regarding Masks, I know a lot of people are into generational politics these days, but I'm not so sure I dig that. But the Delinquent playbook does strike me as something I'd have a lot of fun with. And now I'm listening to that actual play thing and just digging the characters that the game does well.

EDIT: And despite not gelling with the focus of the elevator pitch on the website, the more I read of this the more I'm into it. I guess this is an indication of interest. I haven't always found PbP games to run well or long, but it suits the schedule I've got these days, and I already have a character I'm psyched for in my head.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on June 18, 2019, 10:49:42 am

I don't think Dungeon World is really any better for copying DnDisms and probably would be better if it was its own thing entirely, but I guess it's a way to capture interest from people who only know DnD.

I haven't played any other PbtA games really (I tried Blades in the Dark once but it turned out badly for reasons unrelated to the game itself), but I found Dungeon World pretty enjoyable in general.  I'd have to go look at the logs but I think our play by post game ran for close to two years.  I might change my opinions of it if I played other PbtA games and saw the mechanics used in other and better ways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 19, 2019, 02:32:26 pm

Okay, have made a thread for Masks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174127.0)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on June 19, 2019, 04:22:26 pm

And best of luck with it. I don't like PbtA myself, but Masks is one of the better ones I've seen.

Incidentally, I had a thought while at work: has anyone ever tried to use Microscope or similar generators to run a nonlinear RPG campaign? I mean something like Call of Cthulhu Through The Ages but as a coherent campaign spanning the entirety of human history, presumably democratically deciding which leads from the previous scenario get expanded.

To continue on from the previous example, if your investigators foil the present incursion by the Mi-Go with the help of a mad professor's analysis of Middle Paleolithic cave paintings, perhaps the next couple sessions are spent playing the professor, or the Neanderthals who originally painted them -- and perhaps the Elder Things that helped them figure it out also tried something in ancient Rome, and the Nyarlathotep cultists who found the mad ramblings of the investigators who stopped _that_ bided their time until the 1920s, at which point they were defeated until the stars were right again in 3056 and so forth. Or maybe it was the investigators who were sealed away until then.

Gradually you'd build up this whole mythos of humanity's millennia-long struggle against the eldritch horrors, and it'd keep a feeling of continuity despite a high body count -- and it'd actually let the investigators fail, because when they do, well clearly they weren't actually the ones to stop Hastur from taking over the world. Clearly it was these other folks who carefully edited the cultists' books a hundred years ago to replace the summoning ritual with show tunes translated into Welsh or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on June 29, 2019, 08:18:20 pm

beeeeeeh 5e.  I dunno how I feel about 5e.  It's nice to have a more rules-light game and some elements I like, such as magic item independence, but I don't like the class paths system or the cantrips which still feel video-gamey.  Bounded accuracy is nice cause weak monsters are still a threat, but I dunno how it'll turn out at very high levels when everything's got a billion HP.  A .5 CR thug has like 35 average HP.

I guess I'll see.  My players are having fun at any rate.  But I'm always thinking in the back of my head about playing 3.5 or even Swords and Wizardry instead.

Also I hate forgotten realms, and all the published 5e adventures I've read have been terrible.  A few things I can steal for off-the-cuff adventures, but wew boy.  Dragon Heist especially is an absolute mess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Liber celi on July 01, 2019, 07:42:40 am

Most official adventures for WotC D&D I've seen have been a list of (mostly combat) encounters to be played through in numerical order with a little fluff around it so you can canon-compliantly describe what color the autumn-leaves in the elf-forest are. The rest is dungeons, allowing for the same experience with a few more dead ends; and, usually attached to one of the former variants, small towns where somebody is a dick) Some may have additional baggage but I barely noticed in my existential dread.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm being too harsh for comedic purposes;  I'm sure lots of groups enjoy that experience. And apparently many or most people buy those products for inspiration and to borrow the stats?

As for me, I like to run exploration-based dungeon  (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon)crawl games where 1sp=1xp and people have died from not bringing enough rope but also  (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2006/02/i-got-your-threefold-model-right-here.html)with self-indulgent magic realism where orc is a racist term for outgroup humans and certain forbidden architectural angles work as teleportation portals. Probably not something that could be mainstream even within a middling hobby, or really should be.

The Forgotten Reals are just drab and devoid of... anything.  Lowest rung of mindless genre settings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on July 01, 2019, 01:46:43 pm

Quote from: Liber celi on July 01, 2019, 07:42:40 am

The Forgotten Reals are just drab and devoid of... anything.  Lowest rung of mindless genre settings.

I see you've forgotten Dragonlance was a thing. Probably for the better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 01, 2019, 02:13:35 pm

Also the nice thing about the Forgotten Realms being a fairly generic fantasy world is that it means you don't have to change a lot of things if you want to poach adventures from there and run them somewhere else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 01, 2019, 02:42:20 pm

You used to have a fairly-generic fantasy world, Grayhawk, which was the default at least for 3rd edition, if not before.

If anything, forgotten realms was raped pretty hard with the retcon dildo from 4th onward in order to be the defacto default setting, as now you need to figure out how the new default races and such suddenly fit into forgotten realms.  Even old fans of forgotten realms hate forgotten realms now.

I think a real problem with official adventures these days is, at least with pathfinder if not D&D, they're built from the ground up for pathfinder society/organized play.  Not that I hate PC/OP in-and-of itself but it does force a certain design paradigm for adventure, I imagine.  It needs to be fairly boilerplate or straightforward for the average DM to run with little improv needed on their part, it needs to be fairly easy, at least to avoid character death, and the whole thing needs to be more-or-less doable in one night.

Not that old school was necessarily better.  Tomb of Horrors was also for organized tournament play.  It had the opposite design paradigm, as a tournament it was more a question of how far can you get instead of could you do it at all.  Like an arcade game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on July 01, 2019, 03:10:45 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on July 01, 2019, 02:42:20 pm

I think a real problem with official adventures these days is, at least with pathfinder if not D&D, they're built from the ground up for pathfinder society/organized play.  Not that I hate PC/OP in-and-of itself but it does force a certain design paradigm for adventure, I imagine.  It needs to be fairly boilerplate or straightforward for the average DM to run with little improv needed on their part, it needs to be fairly easy, at least to avoid character death, and the whole thing needs to be more-or-less doable in one night.

I don't know that really describes most D&D 5e modules (though I haven't run them myself), but it does describe the Adventure League (5e organized play) modules pretty well. Hell, I could probably stand that "doable in one night" thing for the regular modules, since it sometimes gets kind of tiresome having to play through the same adventure week-after-week, or your character having reached high level and spent all that time on single adventure that lasted maybe a couple weeks at best.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on July 02, 2019, 01:29:40 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on July 01, 2019, 02:42:20 pm

If anything, forgotten realms was raped pretty hard with the retcon dildo from 4th onward in order to be the defacto default setting, as now you need to figure out how the new default races and such suddenly fit into forgotten realms.  Even old fans of forgotten realms hate forgotten realms now.

It was already pretty well out of fashion before that, at least by what I know – that was the height of the opposition to DMPCs and the idea that the important things to do in a setting designed for tabletop play should be available to the PCs to do, or else it doesn't serve a purpose. That mindset clashes heavily with FR's complex and elaborate network of pantheons and high level canon characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on July 04, 2019, 03:05:13 pm

I was helping a friend's kids learn to play their D&D starter set. One of them got especially excited about casting Burning Hands in particular and was waiting the whole session for a good opportunity to do so. When he finally did, he rolled 16 on 3d6 and took out three goblins at once. That was fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 06, 2019, 09:13:25 am

Dragonlance is bad but it's not as bad as Forgotten Realms.  I don't know much about Greyhawk but I was under the impression it was a more sword and sorcery style.

I was talking about this the other day, somebody trying to figure out why all the gods and superpowered NPCs of forgotten realms weren't dealing with a world-ending threat by themselves, and it reminded me of my headcanon for Sisyphus from That Which Sleeps (that which will never be released).  Now I'm thinking about making that my big villain for my campaign, but I dunno if I'll actually go with it.

There's an arbitrarily large number of Material Planes, and the multiverse is basically a feeding ground for cosmic predators (calling them the Devourers for now).  They swim through the astral plane, or embed themselves in worlds like parasites.  When a world is ripe, one of the Devourers appears, feeding on the chaos and terror of its arrival and leaving the world barren.

Each world is different, but they have three universal constants.  They all have humans, who are special.  They all have a Chosen One, who fights his world's Devourer, and they all have Sisyphus, who is cursed with knowing the fate of the world and being unable to stop it.

Humans, playing on the way humans are always the main protagonists in fantasy stories and the other races just kind of sit there, have some secret essence (Humanity, Determination, whatever you want to call it) that gives them their striving, rebellious spirit.  Elves and dwarves and even gods are creatures of fate and can't fight against it, while humans tell fate to go fuck itself.   The Chosen One is always human.  Sisyphus is always human.

Anyway, the Chosen One fights the Devourer and even if he wins it'll just come back in a thousand years.  Sisyphus has a plan, to distill the essence of humanity into a New Man, requiring the blood of millions of humans and essentially sacrificing the world, then join the Chosen One's soul to create a supreme being of pure Determination, which can kill the Devourers and end the cycle forever.

But he has to get the Chosen One to go along with destroying the entire world, which always fails.  Sometimes the Chosen One kills him, sometimes he kills the Chosen One, but without his consent the world is doomed.

Dunno how I'd do it, or if I'd do it at all, it's pretty weird and awkward since my party has no humans in it at all (minotaur, kobold, dorf, tiefling) but maybe that's the hook.  They're all the Chosen One, and they're all non-human, and Sisyphus recognizes this as something unique and redoubles his efforts.  I don't see them going along with his plans to kill everybody in the world, but of course the entire theme is bucking against fate so it would be appropriate if Sisyphus's plan wasn't really the only way to save the cosmos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 06, 2019, 10:15:43 am

Nah, Dragonlance may be less generically generic than FR, but Dragonlance is also much less interesting and fun than FR.

It also has kender, which needs nothing more said about it, and is the origin of the Dragonborn, which are completely boring and awful and something that should never have been added to FR or spread to any other DnD setting or content.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 06, 2019, 10:30:27 am

There should be a retroclone that is intentionally designed to bring out and encourage the worst grognard player instinct. All the races have bad traits like the kender. Your alignment is a rulebook you have to follow. You can force other PCs to do things with skill checks. Paladins get more powerful the more lives they end. All major artifacts are sapient and played by other players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 06, 2019, 11:19:03 am

Kender aren't that bad, people just don't play them right.  The description makes it clear they have no sense of property and no sense of value.  Which means they shouldn't be exclusively stealing valuable, useful shit, and they shouldn't have any qualms about giving things back or sharing things they stole from elsewhere.  I will never play terrible stock settings so I'll never have a game with kender, but if I did I'd give them houserules for "quantum kleptomania" effects.

They can make a luck check to produce a small item needed for the situation (like a waterskin, lockpick, bell, whatever), assuming that they stole it previously.  And if they need to use a consumable like a potion that someone else has, in combat or while separated, whatever, and the owner consents to them using it, we just assume they borrowed it earlier and they have it, without needing the other player to go give it to them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on July 07, 2019, 03:27:53 am

That's still pretty damn bad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 07, 2019, 06:35:48 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on July 06, 2019, 10:30:27 am

There should be a retroclone that is intentionally designed to bring out and encourage the worst grognard player instinct. All the races have bad traits like the kender. Your alignment is a rulebook you have to follow. You can force other PCs to do things with skill checks. Paladins get more powerful the more lives they end. All major artifacts are sapient and played by other players.

Grognards and Dickwads

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 07, 2019, 11:43:40 am

Will this retroclone also bring out the worst in DMs, or do they just get to watch the chaos? DMPC designation for NPCs, etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 07, 2019, 11:59:13 am

Instead of filling party gaps with a utility DMPC, DM's are encouraged to make an evoker/warlock or a summoner.  Or all of the above!  PCs mess up carefully crafted stories, so why should they get the glory?  Or the action economy heh.

Spoiler: Joking aside but actually still joking, I saw this yesterday and laughed (click to show/hide)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-plj_4XkAAuotS.jpg) (https://twitter.com/AvantrisLegends/status/1146840728326287361)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on July 07, 2019, 12:02:46 pm

Look, what's the point of having a character that can cling to a wall, and roll up it, if you don't do it!?

I mean, sure-- there's STAIRS-- but that's what people WITHOUT special powers use! :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on July 07, 2019, 12:20:23 pm

Quote from: wierd on July 07, 2019, 12:02:46 pm

Look, what's the point of having a character that can cling to a wall, and roll up it, if you don't do it!?

I mean, sure-- there's STAIRS-- but that's what people WITHOUT special powers use! :P

If stairs count as difficult terrain, I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of climb speed builds where taking the stairs is inconvenient and slow in comparison. Which actually potentially makes sense, now. I'm thinking about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 07, 2019, 01:01:58 pm

Next star wars game I'm going to roll up Claptrap and complain about how stairs are impossible to use.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on July 07, 2019, 01:08:19 pm

If we're talking force powers here, why not just "Force push against the ground", and let physics do the rest? :D

(I mean, think about it-- If you push against the steps of the stairs with your force powers, it isn't like your force user is magically anchored in place. That energy is gonna go "least resistance", and it's gonna result in the force user getting shoved around much more than the planet being moved. That means that the force user will be shoved forward, and then the next step underneath will come into contact with the force push area-- rinse repeat.  Force user shoots up the stairs like a goddamn cannonball.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 07, 2019, 01:29:09 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on July 07, 2019, 12:20:23 pm

Quote from: wierd on July 07, 2019, 12:02:46 pm

Look, what's the point of having a character that can cling to a wall, and roll up it, if you don't do it!?

I mean, sure-- there's STAIRS-- but that's what people WITHOUT special powers use! :P

If stairs count as difficult terrain, I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of climb speed builds where taking the stairs is inconvenient and slow in comparison. Which actually potentially makes sense, now. I'm thinking about it.

Parkour?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 10, 2019, 01:18:00 pm

I've been finding myself thinking about how to make a Bloodborne RPG again. I keep thinking the period leading up to the burning of Old Yharnam and the beast plague becoming widespread knowledge could be a really good time for a game, but I've no real idea what would serve as a good system to use as the basis.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 10, 2019, 07:20:46 pm

Maybe Shadow of the Demon Lord, which is a dark fantasy game based around an impending apocalypse (the eponymous demon lord's return).  I haven't read the book, but I think it has mechanics for the escalating disaster as the demon lord gets closer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on July 10, 2019, 08:06:51 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 10, 2019, 07:20:46 pm

Maybe Shadow of the Demon Lord, which is a dark fantasy game based around an impending apocalypse (the eponymous demon lord's return).  I haven't read the book, but I think it has mechanics for the escalating disaster as the demon lord gets closer.

Kind of. Although it's a selling point, it's barely more than a plothook generator really. I was hyped for the design when I heard about it, thinking it was something more like you'd get in a board game where it leads inevitably to the demon king doing his thing, but instead the demon king is characterized as an eternally looming threat outside of creation, not something that ever comes directly into play. The progress of the demon king's influence doesn't even modify corruption roles, which conceptually is like a gimme.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 10, 2019, 08:11:23 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 10, 2019, 01:18:00 pm

I've been finding myself thinking about how to make a Bloodborne RPG again. I keep thinking the period leading up to the burning of Old Yharnam and the beast plague becoming widespread knowledge could be a really good time for a game, but I've no real idea what would serve as a good system to use as the basis.

My gut says to try something with World of Darkness, maybe Hunter (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Hunter:_The_Vigil) for the... hunters, and you could try using Werewolf for the various beasts and other WoD books for various other monsters.

Call of Cthulu might also work, as BB is pretty lovecraft as it is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 11, 2019, 12:46:47 pm

My initial lean is towards WoD stuff, but my previous experience with the system has left me rather lukewarm towards it. I could always rip some of the ideas out and mush them together with ideas from other systems I like.

I prefer d100 systems, so maybe I can modify an existing ruleset.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 14, 2019, 09:34:10 am

Quote from: Cruxador on July 10, 2019, 08:06:51 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 10, 2019, 07:20:46 pm

Maybe Shadow of the Demon Lord, which is a dark fantasy game based around an impending apocalypse (the eponymous demon lord's return).  I haven't read the book, but I think it has mechanics for the escalating disaster as the demon lord gets closer.

Kind of. Although it's a selling point, it's barely more than a plothook generator really. I was hyped for the design when I heard about it, thinking it was something more like you'd get in a board game where it leads inevitably to the demon king doing his thing, but instead the demon king is characterized as an eternally looming threat outside of creation, not something that ever comes directly into play. The progress of the demon king's influence doesn't even modify corruption roles, which conceptually is like a gimme.

And it was already done way better with the Sign mechanics from 3.5 Elder Evils, especially because you can actually fight the elder if it manifests and even still win, but then have to switch to a Dark Sun-inspired homebrew because the whole planet is ruined by it's arrival.

But for Bloodborne all of that doesn't even make sense to begin with since the cosmic horrors are actually benevolent/benign and it's all humanity's fault that the disaster happens.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 14, 2019, 07:34:15 pm

Ebrietas at least seems somewhat sinister. She's cooperating with the Choir and providing them with her blood to experiment on attempts at ascension with despite the fact it seems to involve insane levels of human suffering. I think it was implied her main motivation is loneliness, which isn't a great reason to work with mad scientists who turn people into mewling mutants.

Anyway, Yharnam was still functioning as a city at the time I want to use, a weird blood obsessed city with secret police who hunted werewolves, but still a city. The aftermath of the burning of Old Yharnam would probably be something to end on, with the focus being on a steadily increasing level of paranoia in the city, ever more and stronger beasts appearing each night, inter faction politics within the workshop and the church itself leading up to the workshop being disbanded and Gerhman disappearing.

So right now I'm thinking a D100 system, two 'corruption' tracks, one for Beasthood and one for Insight, with the latter reducing the former as it rises but revealing more Great One nonsense to the character, and Beasthood encouraging indiscriminate slaughter in exchange for raw power. Though most of the beasthood themed stuff is post burning, so maybe won't bother.

Basic ideas for character options atm is a few backgrounds, former Bergenwyrth scholars who followed Laurence, older and frailer but know more of the truth behind things, Yharnam hunters recruited specifically for the workshop from the church as the sort of normal generalists, and foreign hunters as the specialists in odd equipment.

Then options for the workshop covenants and badges, Powder Kegs as gun specialists, Saw Hunters as beast killers, Crows as hunter killers and so on.

I could easily work gun parrying in as a reaction option, a less reliable dodge skill that gives lots of damage on the next attack on the target.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 14, 2019, 08:02:16 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 14, 2019, 07:34:15 pm

Ebrietas at least seems somewhat sinister. She's cooperating with the Choir and providing them with her blood to experiment on attempts at ascension with despite the fact it seems to involve insane levels of human suffering. I think it was implied her main motivation is loneliness, which isn't a great reason to work with mad scientists who turn people into mewling mutants.

But not a malicious or even uncaring reason. The great ones don't appear to fully understand the consequences their actions have on humanity. They're bizarrely innocent entities who have an alarming tendency to do whatever a human asks them to do, once contact has been achieved. In fact, the most aggressive of them is the Orphan of Kos, partly human.

Which could be an interesting option for Yharnam in this time period. Beware of even well-meaning genies...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 15, 2019, 02:56:41 am

There's something to be said for deities that give people exactly what they asked for, and give it to them good and hard.

In terms of outcomes, I guess it's kind of like Democracy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 15, 2019, 04:07:21 am

"Kos" is also the Norwegian word for cuddles/coziness, which I thought was just a teensy bit funny.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on July 15, 2019, 01:09:36 pm

Some friends are trying to get me to try playing Chuubo's Magical Wish Granting Engine, and boy is learning this a challenge.  The game system itself seems relatively straightforward, but the rules are embedded in prose and important information feels like it's scattered around the book which is pretty irritating when using a PDF.

We haven't played yet, but they wanted to play miraculous characters, and almost all of the miraculous character arcs are... just strange.  I think they're probably somehow relevant to the setting in Chuubo's in ways that I don't fully understand, but there are examples like being able to appear in a scene because there was something that looked like your character, but then you vanish and weren't ever actually there.  Or the ability to delete a thing or concept like a character's rudeness once per scene.  That's all mixed in with more normal feeling powers like turning into Godzilla or having the supernatural ability to be the literal best at something, whatever you want that something to be.

I don't know.  I'll give the game a shot, but it just feels so weird.  Even the game mechanics are a strange combination of narrative and explicit mechanics, like the fact that you "fade" in a scene after getting XP so that by explicit game mechanics your character becomes unimportant for I think it was 15 minutes of real time.  Or how you can have Divine health levels that make you immune to almost anything, but if something blows you up enough, like a nuke or volcano, it hurts you anyway.

I suspect it's just a genre I'm really not that into.  The author is the same author as Nobilis I think, which was a similarly trippy setting with power over concepts in ways that I didn't fully comprehend and didn't really feel like I had the enthusiasm and drive to learn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 15, 2019, 01:38:41 pm

There's a special breed of gamer on Reddit who does nothing but pimp Chuubo's and anything Jenna Moran has been in the vicinity of. Common talking points include "pastoral", "no randomizers", "slice-of-life", and, occasionally, "holistic". So commonly are those repeated that it's almost like parrots repeating phrases they've been taught.

You do you, and I'd definitely give it a go if someone in the vicinity wanted to run it, but I can tell that it's just not for me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on July 15, 2019, 04:06:51 pm

Yeah, I'll update with my feelings after playing it some.  I'm hoping it'll end up being like PbtA where I didn't really understand the point or like it before playing it, but really enjoyed it after I did have a chance to play.  But it may just be weird and I won't like it.  Time will tell.

The one thing I'm really kind of curious to see how it plays out is how it tries to incentivize that slice-of-life aspect.  As far as I can tell it does that by giving you XP for getting other people to experience emotions you're trying to evoke, or by doing things like quoting catch phrases.

That honestly feels kind of like it could turn out to be a little obnoxious.  Maybe I'm just basing it off of some irritating behaviors I've seen in other characters like trying too hard to evoke "Isn't my character just so dang cute?" or "Look just how sexy my character is!", but it applies equally to things that I've done like playing up characters who are just miserable all of the time.

We'll see.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 17, 2019, 10:38:59 am

<Never mind. Nothing to see here.>

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 18, 2019, 03:56:00 am

That doesn't look like anything to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on July 18, 2019, 03:59:54 am

Freeze all motor functions. Freeze all motor functions!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Liber celi on July 18, 2019, 06:33:32 am

Skimming over the Chuubo rulebook felt like I lacked some pre-requisites. Like I'd have to read one of the Nobilis books first and also some academic introduction into self-referential story games.

Not my style, but I'm interested in how it goes in praxis.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 18, 2019, 08:20:57 am

I will never play nobilis.  I will never play chuubo. 

On the bright side, the irregular irl dnd group im in has a new player who's never played anything, so I have an opportunity to steer him away from w*****ds and play keep on the borderlands.  Its got irregular player base so if we end up playing more I'll slowly flesh out a sandbox open table setup

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 23, 2019, 09:26:58 am

After my previous [redacted] comment fell through, I have found myself in an upcoming forum-based (elsewhere) Symbaroum game. The GM mentioned that coming up with three ideas might be a good plan but I have no idea what I want to do.

Brain-dumping a bit:

My first thought was an independent mystic that is either human or changeling. If human, he's in search of the demon that forced this power upon him. The demon may or may not exist. If changeling, he has the same hereditary power that his human "family" does. This raises inconvenient questions about the nature of the elf habit of baby stealing.

Next, a dwarven monster hunter. I haven't come up with a rationale yet but he was probably exiled for some reason. Or maybe he was sent to improve relations with Thistle Hold by killing monsters.

Wizard who has taken to studying corruption like that one piece of fiction wherein a scientist documented what it felt like to slowly succumb to an incurable zombie virus. I really don't want to deal with the wizard mechanic of corruption management, though.

Sorcerer who is not cartoonishly evil. Most people have a bit of light corruption. He'd be a sort of healer by using his Black Breath power on people. If they're pure, they get very slightly corrupted. If they have corruption, however, it heals them a bit.

Theurge who is coming to terms with his corruption. Individuals with corruption feel sickened around sanctified areas and things. I think it would be neat to have a character that slowly came to hate touching his own sanctified weapon.

Blacksmith with a fire elemental pet thing. When the pet dies, he uses his skills to repair the armor and start the process again.

Quote

w*****ds

My mind is having trouble filling in the blanks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 23, 2019, 09:55:06 am

Quote from: Mephisto on July 23, 2019, 09:26:58 am

Quote

w*****ds

My mind is having trouble filling in the blanks.

The answer is obviously "Wizzerds".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on July 23, 2019, 09:58:05 am

whizzards.

You know, they really REALLY are into everything that is "golden shower" themed?

Dare you enter his magical realm? (https://1d4chan.org/images/c/cd/The_Whizzard.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 27, 2019, 10:19:56 am

I counted those asterisks like five times God damn it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 27, 2019, 02:57:09 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 27, 2019, 10:19:56 am

I counted those asterisks like five times God damn it

Well there's your problem; you should've only counted them four times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 28, 2019, 03:45:33 pm

As the DriveThruRPG sale comes to a close, I thought now would be a good time to see if anyone had any recommendations. The more obscure the better. For reference, I just picked up the Planet Archipelago mega bundle, a game I'm fairly confident few know of and fewer like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on July 30, 2019, 08:30:52 pm

Warlock of the chain can use a sprite to easily tell if someone is evil in 5e, with no use limit.
Remember, the sprite can turn invisible semi-permanently, which doesn't end if it uses its heart-sight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on July 30, 2019, 10:56:23 pm

Aside from the Play with Your Friends section, this seems like the place to ask--

I will be getting my fancy new wide format printer sometime tomorrow.  I am down with printing and mailing meat-space friendly maps and other assorted, without being the copyright police.  Would there be any takers?

My printer can handle up to 36" wide.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on July 31, 2019, 10:10:11 am

As much as I find using PDFs of rulebooks obnoxious because every PDF reader I've ever tried chugs on all of the images in most of them, I don't have any in particular that I'd rather have taking up space on a book shelf.  Lots of random, one-offs that I've accumulated over the years of my group wanting to test them out.

On that note, I've largely finished playing a game of GUMSHOE One-2-One, and... it didn't work as well as I hoped.  At this point I can't decide if it's because of flaws in the game system, or just because I used it poorly.  Very likely the latter.

My vague impression, after a single game with it anyway, is that it's very sensitive to how you set up encounters.  That in turn is also very sensitive to how careful you are at steering the player toward the clues and conclusions you want them to draw, because you're supposed to set up encounters / challenges at specific moments and have detailed consequences prepared for them.  As an example, if you want the player to resist flirting by an NPC, you're supposed to have a challenge designed with 3 outcomes, depending on how well they roll their Cool ability: an Advance for a high roll, a Hold for a middling one and a Setback for a low roll.  Those are usually each accompanied by a Problem or Edge that you hand out to the player, so improvising is difficult.  Even in a play by post format, I had a tough time thinking up appropriate Problems and Edges at the right time, since I wanted them to be something more interesting than a flat -1 to rolls or something.  And I had to improvise a lot, since the player inevitably went off in an entirely different direction than I expected at the very beginning of the game and invalidating a fair bit of my prepared encounters.

On that note, I absolutely understand now why the game provides prebuilt characters for you to use in the scenarios it includes in the Cthulhu Confidential rulebook.  First, you need to have a good motivation for a character to go and investigate whatever problem you set up as a GM, and having something to work with there helps.  More importantly, a character who does not have an investigative or general ability usually can't even attempt it, so if you mess up encounter design and ask for one of those abilities to be used or rolled, you screw the player over.  Did that twice by mistake.

Coming up with the right numbers for the challenges is hard too.  As the GM, you know the player's skill levels so you can usually assign appropriate difficulties with a bit more confidence than, say, a fight in a D20 system game, but even so it's easy for a player to roll a 1 on a die on several encounters and end up saddled with lots of Problems that cause something of a death spiral.  That's countered by making most Problems possible to get rid of by just "taking time", but if you don't impose consequences for taking time then it cheapens the effects a lot.

Anyway, the system works fine for what it does, but writing investigations for it is hard.  A lot harder than the base GUMSHOE system intended for multiple players, I think.  The prebuilt investigations in the Cthulhu Confidential rulebook are well designed and flavorful, and I think that's probably where the game does best: with a refined investigation that's been through rounds of play testing.  It would take a GM that's very experienced with the system to create new investigations quickly and with any decent polish.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 04, 2019, 08:44:42 am

Idea: All-spellcaster party, but nobody has spell slots. Instead, to cast a non-trivial spell, you must take an appropriate drink (Throwing a fireball? Shot of Fireball). Continue until dead/dead/out of spells.


The DM does not require specific drinking rules. They're managing an all-spellcaster party that doesn't have spell slots. They'll be drinking anyways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 04, 2019, 10:05:58 am

The drink counts for the material component, I trust.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 04, 2019, 10:08:55 am

If mezcal is the drink in question, do you get instant crit if you get the worm?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 04, 2019, 12:34:22 pm

And now we've reinvented Daiquiris and Demigods.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 09, 2019, 11:01:26 pm

It's been a while.

This is Murderhoof, (https://i.imgur.com/BYsTJoy.png) an RPG by those weirdos at Tri Tac. Discuss if you wish.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 10, 2019, 06:38:49 am

What

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 11, 2019, 05:28:51 am

Yeah, someone did a legit Pathfinder mod for ponies too. I dunno, maybe it was kinda funny a few years ago, but the sparkle of that particular irony's definitely in its twilight now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 11, 2019, 05:29:54 am

I dont think it ever had a sparkle.  Pony needed to stay inside its franchise, and not be a plague that wouldnt die, IMO.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 11, 2019, 05:45:33 am

Eh, if pastel equines solving problems through close personal relationships is your cup of tea, I'm not gonna shame you over it. If you decide you want to merge that particular niche with your gaming hobby, I frankly don't lose any more respect for you compared to your choice of that form of fantasy over, say, bearded dwarven women, androgynous elven pretty-boys, or brooding emo drow characters.

That being said, you won't be playing a pony at my table. Yes, the game world is full of magical, wondrous and strange creatures, but at no point do I want to have a party of ponies prancing merrily through said world.

In other news, I've decided a future campaign for my group of intrepid guardspersons in my Pathfinder homebrew will be investigating a murder-mystery soon. It'll be set in a VIP brothel featuring expensive services for upper-class patrons desiring the unique and varied companionship of creatures not native to the material plane. I'm particularly proud of the planned name for this establishment: The Starving Succubus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 11, 2019, 05:58:36 am

Don't misunderstand, we basically agree.

I am not kinkshaming, I am just pointing out that demanding pony at the table is basically demanding piss wizard. Piss wizard never had sparkle, with the sole exception being if all the players wanted golden showe themed P&P.  Likewise with pony.  Pony needed to stay in its franchise, and in its fandom, but had a habit of not being.  Thus, no sparkle.


Re: your campaign

Sounds a bit like solving epstein's curious death..

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 11, 2019, 06:23:52 am

I was also whating at the complete nonsequiteuritude of the linked image. I understand the words, but I just don't understand a single thing about what's going on. And why is there a faun? Are fauns part of My Little Pony?

Quote from: Jimmy on August 11, 2019, 05:45:33 am

In other news, I've decided a future campaign for my group of intrepid guardspersons in my Pathfinder homebrew will be investigating a murder-mystery soon. It'll be set in a VIP brothel featuring expensive services for upper-class patrons desiring the unique and varied companionship of creatures not native to the material plane. I'm particularly proud of the planned name for this establishment: The Starving Succubus.

You should have it be placed on another plane to get around local laws. Ain't no laws against prostitution, infidelity or fornication in this pocket plane, Moralist Church Stand in. You have no authority here.

Also I'm reminded of Falls-From-Grace from Planescape: Torment - the "fallen" Succubus proprietor of a brothel where the courtesans only offer conversation to their clients.

Quote

bearded dwarven women

Hey now are we making this personal

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 11, 2019, 07:35:05 am

There are no fauns in MLP. Murderhoof takes place in Tri Tac's Fringeworthy universe, which seems to be Earth "but what if X". X in this case seems to be "ponies invade but are actually evil and start slaughtering people with shotguns.

I didn't read enough to figure out what faun dude's deal is. He seems to be labeled a brony. I can think of two ways that could go but mobile posting is a PITA.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 12, 2019, 12:20:32 pm

With illusory reality and the 6th level spell Major image, a 14th level wizard can create any object with following limitations.

• The object can’t deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone. This can be an advantage, though.
• The object is inanimate.
• The object is non-magical.
• You have to use a bonus action every minute to keep it real.
• The object is visible, maybe.
• The illusion is placed within 120 feet of the wizard.
• Maximum size is a 20 feet cube.

Things that are not limitations.

• The object can indirectly harm someone.
• You can make an object real after a period of it being an illusion.
• You do not need to see or be near the object to make it real.
• You do not need to obey gravity when placing the illusion.
• You can move any distance away from the illusion after being placed.
• You can change the nature of a seen illusion (with more than a 9 round duration.) with an action.
• You can move an illusion with 120 feet to somewhere else within 120 feet as an action.

Ambiguous situations.

• It is unknown if a "real" object still counts as an illusion.
• It not specified that the user knows how the object works. Example: You could make a working computer without knowing how they actually work.
• It is not specified that it needs to actually exist. Example: You could make an illusory slade hammer when slade doesn't really exist.

Additional notes.

• You can keep 9 or 10 illusions real at the same time.
• Major Images are reusable, just turn it into whatever you need at the moment, then turn it into a handkerchief or pebble and store it in your pocket when you're not using it.

Uses I have thought up. Obviously dependent on GM, but works in RAW.

• You can create a non-magical panacea, keep it real until you digest it, then change the pile of illusory poop into something else.
• You can create a wall of slade above someone, then make it real to drop down on them and keep them pinned. No direct damage.
• You can make a racing car. If you crash, if the only thing you hit is the car, you won't take damage.
• Hate your enemy racer? Replace his car with an illusion, and then let it become fake again while he's driving it at high speeds.
• You can make can make an adamantine sarcophagus from the head down that keeps the enemy from doing anything but still allows attack on them.
• You can make a layer of metal over the enemy's weapon/claws/mouth that keeps them from hurting anything.
• Make an illusion of a detonating atom bomb, then when you want it detonate, make it real. How useful it is depends on if knockback or radiation are inderect harm or not. At bare minimum it's one hell of a distraction. Oh, and if it can't hurt you, the distracting atom bomb can be made with a minor illusion.
• If you're fighting a horde, you could make an illlusion of a 20x20x20 cube of the toughest known non-magical material around them, with holes to contain them in. Then you can either let them suffocate, or let them go one by one outside to be fought.
• You can make harmless sports equipment, such as actual swords for fencing.

Notes about other spells.
This is only considering 6th level Major Image. I haven't looked carefully at the applications of other spells, mostly because with major image you can just keep nine handkerchiefs in your pocket for when you need it.
Phantasmal forc
However, with an illusion with concentration, you could, say, make a bridge over a gap and then destroy it when an enemy tries to cross.
With Seeming, you can give enemy wizards heavy armor to prevent them from casting spells. You can make the illusion on any number of enemy spellcasters, but how many are real is much lower.
Silent Image and Minor Illusion are cheap ways to do it if you can't get a major image right now.

Do you guys have any other ideas?


Also, while I'm thinking of it, could Seeming make a creature invisible, possibly only with a one foot tall one?
And would a Seeming of a bag over someone's head prevent them from seeing, even without Illusory Reality?
And now that I think about it, Seeming doesn't say how large the clothing and equipment must be, only how much shorter or taller the person themself is. Could you use this to make a "real" fifty foot tall hat?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 12, 2019, 05:12:44 pm

I feel like a lot of that is "assumed rules derived from the void left by 5e's intentionally ambiguous language", and is left entirely up to the discretion of the GM (yes of course everything already is, but not necessarily always in direct contrast/violation of written rules. In this case, it's the GM who has to write the rules half the time). And that's not even going into what can/can't actually be conjured by the individual illusion spells (minor illusion itself being a horrible example of such).



Additional note: A Tempest Cleric 2/Mountain Druid 5 can launch a 1/day guaranteed max-damage lightning bolt at CLevel 7, something an Evoker Wizard would have to wait until CLevel 14 to do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 12, 2019, 05:26:58 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 12, 2019, 05:12:44 pm

Additional note: A Tempest Cleric 2/Mountain Druid 5 can launch a 1/day guaranteed max-damage lightning bolt at CLevel 7, something an Evoker Wizard would have to wait until CLevel 14 to do.

Actually its 1 per short rest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 12, 2019, 05:57:56 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on August 12, 2019, 12:20:32 pm

[Illusion fuckery]

yeeeaaah, the illusion school in general is just a DM ruling funfest.

Remember when in 3.5 gnome shadowcraft mage could make an illusion that was literally more real than reality?  How does that even work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 13, 2019, 03:13:08 am

Quote from: Persus13 on August 12, 2019, 05:26:58 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 12, 2019, 05:12:44 pm

Additional note: A Tempest Cleric 2/Mountain Druid 5 can launch a 1/day guaranteed max-damage lightning bolt at CLevel 7, something an Evoker Wizard would have to wait until CLevel 14 to do.

Actually its 1 per short rest.

Ah, yes, my mistake... So actually more often than the CLevel 14 wizard, unless you feel like eating 2(+)d12 irresistible necrotic damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 13, 2019, 08:25:58 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 13, 2019, 03:13:08 am

Quote from: Persus13 on August 12, 2019, 05:26:58 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 12, 2019, 05:12:44 pm

Additional note: A Tempest Cleric 2/Mountain Druid 5 can launch a 1/day guaranteed max-damage lightning bolt at CLevel 7, something an Evoker Wizard would have to wait until CLevel 14 to do.

Actually its 1 per short rest.

Ah, yes, my mistake... So actually more often than the CLevel 14 wizard, unless you feel like eating 2(+)d12 irresistible necrotic damage.

what would happen if you were playing something immune to necrotic damage?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 13, 2019, 08:35:23 am

Quote from: scourge728 on August 13, 2019, 08:25:58 am

what would happen if you were playing something immune to necrotic damage?

Overchannel deals necrotic that ignores resistance and immunity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 13, 2019, 08:40:22 am

That's also getting into homebrew territory anyway. Last I checked, no PC races had necrotic immunity. The closest you'd get is the Aasimar's resistance or one lone mention on a random forum somewhere about necromancers maybe getting something at high level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 13, 2019, 08:55:22 am

The Planeshift Vampire races are also resistant, but that's as much as anyone gets. The only damage type pc races can be immune to is poison as I recall.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 14, 2019, 03:04:37 pm

I'm sure some of you like cheap books and grim darkness. (https://www.humblebundle.com/books/warhammer-40000-dark-heresy-rpg-books)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 14, 2019, 03:07:41 pm

Mmm, heresy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 14, 2019, 03:15:01 pm

Ooh, that really lubricates my servos... Might have to grab some stuff.


In a quick 5e-related question: Dear DMs, how do you handle giving advantage versus giving +points to a particular challenge? Like, how would you define when to give a +4 flat bonus to an ability check, versus giving the player advantage on the roll for that check? Or, for that matter, reducing the target DC? Does an NPC's drunkenness mean that they're easier to seduce (lower DC), that the bard seducing them is going to be more successful (flat bonus), or that the odds are in the seducer's favor (advantage)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 14, 2019, 03:32:32 pm

In 5e, you are only supposed to give advantage and disadvantage. DC is how hard it is to do, so I'd lower the DC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 14, 2019, 03:56:56 pm

Dis/Advantage can be averaged out to a +/-5 difference to the roll, but 5e was built with bounded accuracy in mind so bonuses to the roll itself can be wonky sometimes so the advantage mechanic is used instead.

For seducing a drunkard I'd probably go with an opposed test of some kind, probably Charisma (Persuasion) vs Wisdom (Insight) with the drunk having disadvantage. I might give the drunk a passive Insight the same way as characters have passive Perception and use that as a fixed target DC and just take away 5 for their disadvantage though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 14, 2019, 05:36:19 pm

Grim described what I'd do mechanically, but I'd also probably be more interested in the bard's approach in terms of giving advantage/disadvantage than the drunkeness of an NPC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 14, 2019, 05:40:37 pm

I wish I had people around me who could play dnd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 14, 2019, 06:37:10 pm

Got any gaming stores that sell D&D stuff nearby? They'll often have some kind of LFG notice board, or at least know people who have groups they run. Or you can tell them you're interested in starting a group and checking if there's any interest.

For example, my local town has two gaming stores that run groups. One is a general tabletop gaming store, catering to WH40K and D&D, the other is a store that sells anime and manga, but opens later each night for gaming groups and TCG players. Both let you book a table for free so long as you pay for some snacks that they sell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 14, 2019, 09:12:19 pm

is there anything in the rules that prevents a gnome/kobold pc from casting enlarge/reduce on themselves to reduce their weight, casting mage hand, grabbing themselves with the mage hand and flying themselves around a battlefield, raining projectiles down on the enemies

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2019, 10:35:09 pm

12lb total limit on weight moved?

12lb is...  Well... it's not a whole lot. (remember, it's not just them, but also their pack. And clothes.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on August 14, 2019, 10:38:52 pm

For one thing, the SRD says a goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) is around 40-45 lbs and kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) around 35-45 lbs, on average.  You'll likely need a crash diet or a very young PC to accomplish it with a mage hand, even with the weight reduction.

Now, an awakened housecat, on the other hand...

EDIT: Oh, sorry, a 12lb total weight limit means it isn't D&D 3.5e or Pathfinder. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2019, 10:41:51 pm

Which would have compelling reasons to learn MageHand... (lacking hands of their own..)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 14, 2019, 10:44:40 pm

Just use Wish to cast standard spells with parameters like that removed and destroy the whole prime material in short order.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on August 14, 2019, 10:53:10 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on August 14, 2019, 10:44:40 pm

Just use Wish to cast standard spells with parameters like that removed and destroy the whole prime material in short order.

Mm, Wish would be a seriously pricey thing to blow on a one-time-use modified spell what with that 33% chance of losing it forever when casting it for non-standard effects...

...using Wish to get a permanent upgrade to your Mage Hand, now. That would be interesting. Very much an "ask-your-DM" thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2019, 10:53:17 pm

Quote from: Culise on August 14, 2019, 10:38:52 pm

For one thing, the SRD says a goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) is around 40-45 lbs and kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) around 35-45 lbs, on average.  You'll likely need a crash diet or a very young PC to accomplish it with a mage hand, even with the weight reduction.

Now, an awakened housecat, on the other hand...

EDIT: Oh, sorry, a 12lb total weight limit means it isn't D&D 3.5e or Pathfinder.

I just mis-remembered. Regardless, magehand has a pretty weak move force.

Quote from: From 5e rules

Mage Hand
Cantrip Conjuration

    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: 30 feet
    Components: V S
    Duration: 1 minute
    Classes: Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
    A spectral, floating hand appears at a point you choose within range. The hand lasts for the duration or until you dismiss it as an action. The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you or if you cast this spell again.
    You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it.
    The hand can’t attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds.

Quote from: 3E rules

3e SRD:Mage Hand
This material is published under the OGL
Mage Hand Transmutation
Level:    Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components:    V, S
Casting time:    1 action
Range:    Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:    Nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb.
Duration:    Concentration
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No

The character points a finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move-equivalent action, the character can move the object up to 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between the character and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

Using it to carry the mage around probably needs to also keep the S component; namely, pointing.  So, you need to think of some way to point-control the hand, with it behind you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 14, 2019, 11:01:47 pm

you guys appear to have missed the part where I said to use the enlarge/reduce spell, one-eighth of 40 is 5 pounds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2019, 11:03:08 pm

Again, your mage will have to be naked.  (You are not counting the weight of their pack, or their clothes/weapon)

Again, S component needs one hand pointed at the mage hand to control it. That also limits what spells you can cast. Some need both hands.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 14, 2019, 11:04:48 pm

I missed your first post on the subject wierd, sorry bout that

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 14, 2019, 11:12:07 pm

Would a person even be an "unattended object".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2019, 11:13:16 pm

Also 5e says it only lasts 1 minute.  Better be quick on recasting it!

and is a wizard really nonmagical?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 14, 2019, 11:18:59 pm

well a round is 6 seconds long.... meaning you get 10 rounds of it before falling, and I would say yes a person is unattended after all people talk about leaving children unattended all the time

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 14, 2019, 11:25:25 pm

NM/ saw it was homebrew.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 15, 2019, 09:06:38 am

Enlarge/Reduce also only lasts a minute, so you're actually only getting 9 rounds of it.

You also need to use your action to move the mage hand around, so moving around and attacking isn't really something you can do at the same time.

Honestly, you're better off just casting fly on yourself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 15, 2019, 09:20:36 am

From my recollection the best small race flight shenanigans are reduced gnomes/halflings/kobolds being carried by familiars like imps, and g/h/f rangers riding their pterodactyl companion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 15, 2019, 09:25:45 am

Centaurs riding centaurs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on August 15, 2019, 12:23:05 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 14, 2019, 11:13:16 pm

Also 5e says it only lasts 1 minute.  Better be quick on recasting it!

and is a wizard really nonmagical?

That doesn't really matter unless you want the hand to activate you, which sounds like something you probably shouldn't be doing in public anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 12:31:21 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 14, 2019, 11:03:08 pm

Again, S component needs one hand pointed at the mage hand to control it. That also limits what spells you can cast. Some need both hands.

Except controlling the hand does not take an S component. Only casting the spell requires an S component.
Also, a spell requiring an S component does not require you to have not casted an S component spell on the same turn, so I don't see what your problem is. Just point at where the mage hand goes, then cast the S component spell on the same turn.

Also, it is worth noting an hawk can carry up to 75 pounds of stuff at FC (at full capacity), and still move 80 feet in a round without an any action to control it.
An imp can carry 90 pounds, but only move 40 feet at FC. Also, it can stay invisible.
A pseudodragon is the best of both worlds with 90 pounds and move 80 feet at FC, however it can't stay invisible.
Sidenote: A warlock can have a celestial or fey imp, or a fiend sprite.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 15, 2019, 12:40:23 pm

this is getting into rule lawyering..

But, take for instance, burning hands.  You hold your hand out, and flames shoot out while you concentrate.  By your thinking, one could cast the spell and keep concentrating, while doing other things with their hands.

In this case, you point at what you want the hand to interact with while you concentrate.

In more general (outside of DnD) magical practice, this is how a magical connection is created through a focus; The act of pointing directs the will-intent of the practitioner, and is required to create and sustain the link between that object and the practitioner.

The authors of the spellbook wanted to simplify this and abstract it away as much as possible.  It would be up to the GM to decide how they want to treat the S component's requirement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 02:02:44 pm

Okay. In your example. First someone casts the spell by holding their hands out. Flames shoot out. Then they have cast the spell and now can do anything else they want to do with their hands. You don't have to spend the whole turn casting the spell. You only spend an action. As the rules say, you use the Somatic component while casting the spell. Then anything else you do on your turn is after you have already done everything involved with spell casting. Its not rules-lawyering, its how it works. If the GM wants to make it more involved, that's fine, they're the GM, but that isn't how it is meant to work vanilla.
 In addition, controlling the hand does not require S component, only casting the spell does. It says nothing about having to move your own hand to control it, or point at where you want to control it, or anything like that. It doesn't even say to point at where you want the Mage Hand to appear when you cast it. Nothing about the spell says anything about pointing.
 What do you mean by keep concentrating, neither Burning Hands nor Mage Hand are concentration spells?
I'm pretty sure you are allowed to cast a cantrip and bonus action spell even if they both have S components.

Or are you saying you're rules-lawyering? In which case, I don't agree, nothing you're saying last post is in the rules.


Tangeant: If your holy symbol is on your shield, apparently you can use both Material and Somatic components with that shield, but Somatic spells without Material components need an empty hand. Weird.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 15, 2019, 02:26:37 pm

Quote from: 3E rules

3e SRD:Mage Hand
This material is published under the OGL
Mage Hand Transmutation
Level:    Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components:    V, S
Casting time:    1 action
Range:    Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:    Nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb.
Duration:    Concentration
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No

The character points a finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move-equivalent action, the character can move the object up to 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between the character and the object ever exceeds the spell's range.

Yes it is, at least for 3E.  they made it 1min in 5E. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 02:37:27 pm

Sorry. I was talking about 5e. I suppose we're just talking around each other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 15, 2019, 02:38:18 pm

to be fair, they never specified which version they are playing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 02:40:22 pm

I would assume 5e since he said Enlarge/Reduce, which I'm pretty sure is an exclusively 5e spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 15, 2019, 02:43:08 pm

Quote from: 3.5 reduce person

Reduce Person
Transmutation
Level:   Sor/Wiz 1
Components:   V, S, M
Casting Time:   1 round
Range:   Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:   One humanoid creature
Duration:   1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw:   Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance:   Yes
This spell causes instant diminution of a humanoid creature, halving its height, length, and width and dividing its weight by 8. This decrease changes the creature’s size category to the next smaller one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a -2 size penalty to Strength (to a minimum of 1), and a +1 bonus on attack rolls and AC due to its reduced size.

A Small humanoid creature whose size decreases to Tiny has a space of 2½ feet and a natural reach of 0 feet (meaning that it must enter an opponent’s square to attack). A Large humanoid creature whose size decreases to Medium has a space of 5 feet and a natural reach of 5 feet. This spell doesn’t change the target’s speed.

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell.

Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

Multiple magical effects that reduce size do not stack.

Reduce person counters and dispels enlarge person.

Reduce person can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Material Component
A pinch of powdered iron.

It exists in the 3.x game. Not exclusive to 5e.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 02:44:31 pm

But it is not called Enlarge/Reduce, which suggests Scourge was talking about 5e. Otherwise he would instead call it Reduce Person or something like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 15, 2019, 02:45:39 pm

picky picky. :P

We should just ask, instead of bickering like washerwomen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 02:47:05 pm

Hey, scourge728, were you talking about 5e when you mentioned casting enlarge/reduce on a gnome?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 15, 2019, 02:55:55 pm

Didn't this discussion already happen... oh, a month or two ago?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 15, 2019, 02:57:29 pm

Not exactly--

I mentioned it (mage hand) as a potentially fun thing to combine with immovable rod, and things got silly from there.

this is a different kind of hi-jinx with mage hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 02:58:54 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on August 15, 2019, 02:55:55 pm

Didn't this discussion already happen... oh, a month or two ago?

Longer than two months, but yeah, we've discussed Mage Hand and Enlarge/Reduce before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 15, 2019, 02:59:55 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 02:44:31 pm

But it is not called Enlarge/Reduce, which suggests Scourge was talking about 5e. Otherwise he would instead call it Reduce Person or something like that.

And even things with consistent names do not have consistent effects. Protection against good/evil was a spell in 3e that protected against good/evil. Protection from good/evil is a spell in 5e that protects against animals, golems, or other creature type of your choice because words don't have meanings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 03:03:53 pm

Aberrations, Celestials, Elementals, fey, Fiends, and Undead. That is what 5e Protection from Good/Evil protects from, and it does it to all of them.
Where are you getting  "animals, golems, or other creature type of your choice"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 15, 2019, 03:04:20 pm

Honestly, I just saw the idea on a youtube comment and thought it was funny

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 06:26:49 pm

Well, actually just having a hawk familiar carry would be more efficient, faster, and all around better. You get to go 80 feet a round with a weight up to 75 pounds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 15, 2019, 06:41:57 pm

3.5's Protection From [X] spells and 5e's Protection from Good/Evil certainly are an interesting... comparison, though.

The 3.5 ones require you to choose the specific alignment they give +2 AC and saves against, which is alright.  But the arguably much greater role is that they block (AND suspend) *any* possession, charm, or compulsion effects.  Regardless of alignment, which always seemed strange to me when they made 4 different variations for the different alignments.

In 5e they seemed to make it more generic - it's one spell, and only names good and evil of course (bah, law/chaos are interesting too!).  But then you pick a specific creature type, and yeah, that list has very little to do with alignment at all.

Like Pikachu said: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead.  Why can Protection from Good/Evil work against *elementals*??  Sorry, I just find that funny :P

Edit: Though I agree with them taking out the mechanical importance of alignment, and alignment detection etc.  The spell's named weird though, and it's barely related to the spells it's sorta named after!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 06:52:41 pm

Uh... You don't pick a creature type for that spell, it does all of them whether you want it to or not.
Instead of protecting from subjective good or evil, now the spell protects from creatures that are made of elemental good and evil.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 15, 2019, 07:09:37 pm

I disagree that its "barely related". The 5e version of the spell does basically the same thing as the 3.5 spell using 5e mechanics, so there's disadvantage instead of +2 to AC, and the immunity to charm and possession is still there, with frighten added in as well. And with the exception of elementals which tend to be mostly neutral or evil alignment, most of the creature types on the list tend to lean towards good or evil alignment (with the possible exception of fey).

And Protection from Extraplanar Creatures doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 07:16:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on August 15, 2019, 07:09:37 pm

And Protection from Extraplanar Creatures doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

Protection from Outsiders?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 16, 2019, 01:03:11 am

Quote from: Persus13 on August 15, 2019, 07:09:37 pm

I disagree that its "barely related". The 5e version of the spell does basically the same thing as the 3.5 spell using 5e mechanics, so there's disadvantage instead of +2 to AC, and the immunity to charm and possession is still there, with frighten added in as well. And with the exception of elementals which tend to be mostly neutral or evil alignment, most of the creature types on the list tend to lean towards good or evil alignment (with the possible exception of fey).

And Protection from Extraplanar Creatures doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

You have a good point, I was a bit confused because they folded compulsion magic (or at least Dominate Person) into a charm effect with special rules tacked on, for simplicity.  A lot of +2 bonuses became advantage, amidst a very complicated rebalancing that I definitely have enjoyed the end result of.

Personally I always avoided arcane magic in 3.5, and I have carried that twitch into 5e.  Not counting the absolute blast I had with my first 5e character, a dwarven arcane fighter.

Quote from: pikachu17 on August 15, 2019, 07:16:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on August 15, 2019, 07:09:37 pm

And Protection from Extraplanar Creatures doesn't exactly have the same ring to it.

Protection from Outsiders?

I'd take either, but yeah.

You're right that the 5e version works against all those outsiders at once.  Which I think supports the direction I was going:  Why are these spells named after alignments, when both versions are primarily barriers against Outsiders?  Including neutral outsiders, even the alignment-named 3.5 versions.  As a longtime Druid main, I agree with your conclusion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 05:04:12 am

Hey guys! Who wants some more ridiculous rules lawyering?

Quote from: Armor Proficiency

Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a Shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or Attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast Spells.

So we've established that a shield is considered armor, and armor gives you big disadvantages if you're wearing a piece you're not proficient with. Right? So we don't wanna do that. That means no duct-taping a shield to a wizard or something and hoping he can flail around for a shield bash, right?

Well...

Quote from: Shield Master

You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:

• If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
• If you aren’t incapacitated, you can add your shield’s AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
• If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half dam - age, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

"...when you are wielding a shield". So, technically, you don't have to be wearing it, you could just be holding it in your hand like a goddamn frisbee. And then slapping people with it as part of a shove action. But of course, you're still not proficient with it! Neither as a shield nor as an improvised weapon, so there's gotta be a downside to that, right?

Quote from: Weapon Proficiency

Proficiency with a weapon allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for any attack you make with that weapon. If you make an attack roll using a weapon with which you lack proficiency, you do not add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

Okay, so that's bad, but not huge... Especially not at early levels. Still kinda bad though, especially if we want to make the most out of frisbee-bashing.

...but wait, the bonus shove from Shield Master is just a regular shove. How does shove work again?

Quote from: Shoving A Creature

The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Instead of making an attack roll, you make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).

It's not an attack roll, you say? It's an ability check? Weapon proficiency only penalizes attack rolls? Hmm...


Introducing: Captain Faerûn, the Strength-loaded cunt carrying a goddamn frisbee who spends his first turn performing a Grapple attack action, which lets him use his wielded shield to perform a Bonus Action shove (and if he's a rogue or bard he of course gets Expertise: Athletics) and thereby thump his victim with the grappled+prone status combo, which inflicts disadvantage on the creature's attacks and doesn't let them stand up from the prone state.

Subsequent turns are either spent kicking the poor fuck as an Unarmed Attack (which everyone is naturally proficient in) for 1+Str damage (feet are not finesse weapons, so no sneak attack here, sadly), spamming Vicious Mockery, or doing something else dumb.

Really want to rub in the stupidity? Pick up some paladin/ranger spells via the Bard's magical secrets. Kicks count as a "weapon attack" and therefore trigger things like the various smites and Hunter's Mark. Brand someone with your foot.



Naturally, Captain Faerûn is hated by all. And with good reason. Fuckin' twat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 16, 2019, 05:53:12 am

I was going to suggest taking just 1 level in Rogue for Expertise and the rest in Monk to boost your unarmed damage, but:

Quote from: Martial Arts

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:

THEY KNOW.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 06:14:34 am

Monk can also kinda do the wombo combo anyways, it's just a bit weaker and comes online later. Way of the Open Hand gets the upgrade to Flurry of Blows that lets you attempt a knockdown on flurry strikes, and you can activate flurry "Immediately after taking the Attack action", which Grapple counts as. So you can grapple, then make two flurry attacks that have a chance to knock the opponent down.

That's not an opposed check though, the target just makes a Dex saving throw vs. 8 + your Wismod + your proficiency.

The fixed DC is better in some ways, worse in others, and while you're making damaging attacks while doing this you're also spending 1 ki point to pull it off. And you can only do it from level 3 Monk onwards.

You also kinda need to be strengthmonk, because starting a grapple is always Strength (Athletics)... Which means your defense kinda sucks, both AC and missile deflection.



What we really need is some sort of finesse weapon for the Rogue that they can use... Hmm... Bootknife?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on August 16, 2019, 07:24:15 am

i think the wielding a shield line in monk makes it pretty clear wielding and wearing a shield are identical in the writers' eyes, unless you think 'monks can use a shield as long as they're not holding it like a frisbee' is the author's intent

the prosecution rests

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 07:53:28 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on August 16, 2019, 07:24:15 am

'monks can use a shield as long as they're not holding it like a frisbee' is the author's intent

Except they can't, because that would be wearing armor. We've already established that a shield is armor, so wearing a shield would be wearing armor. Therefore, the distinction in that passage between wearing armor and wielding a shield makes it clear that this is a case of holding shields like a goddamn frisbee.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 16, 2019, 08:29:28 am

By that logic, you get no benefits from wearing a shield, because all you need to do is wield a shield to get the +2 bonus to AC.

If I were building Captain Faerun, I'd probably just have him be a Fighter with Tavern Brawler and Shield Master, and then either MC into Rogue or take the Prodigy feat for Expertise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 16, 2019, 12:36:01 pm

Yeah, its pretty damn bad Munchkinry to say wielding a shield is not using it as armor. It specifically says "wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2."

Persus, what benefit would Captain Faerun get from the Tavern Brawler feat? Keep in mind that it only allows a bonus action grapple on a 1d4+Str damage hit. I'm pretty sure if you're going for a grappler, there's better things to do than wear a shield.
And, yeah, I agree that actually making him a class that's supposed to be strong would be best, and those have shield proficiency anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 12:46:41 pm

To quote a user on a different forum:

Quote from: RegentCorreon

I think RAW and RAI are insufficient to describe this situation. It's more a case of RAITDRTVHABTST: Read As If They Didn't Really Think Very Hard About This Specific Thing...

As for building a grappler, a shield is actually just about the best thing you can have, strictly because of Shield Master's bonus action shove. Grappler as a feat is highly disappointing, and Tavern Brawler is similarly a bit lackluster. And the two feats don't play well together, since both Tavern Brawler's grapple and Shield Master's shove require the bonus action.

Also worth remembering that this isn't 3.5, and feat slots are extremely fucking pricey...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 16, 2019, 01:19:15 pm

Yes, but is the shield worth having no weapon other than unarmed strikes?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 01:48:47 pm

Having a shield means you can, in one turn, take a single opponent and:

Immobilize them
Render them prone, providing disadvantage on all their attacks and advantage on all attacks against them
Prevent them from getting back up


Damage at that point is just icing, they're already taken out of the fight. You can also drag them around if you want to do that. There's not much they can do even if they do succeed at breaking your hold while lying down, since they still need to stand up before they can move anywhere.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 16, 2019, 02:26:01 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 01:48:47 pm

Having a shield means you can, in one turn, take a single opponent and:

Immobilize them
Render them prone, providing disadvantage on all their attacks and advantage on all attacks against them
Prevent them from getting back up


Damage at that point is just icing, they're already taken out of the fight. You can also drag them around if you want to do that. There's not much they can do even if they do succeed at breaking your hold while lying down, since they still need to stand up before they can move anywhere.

Anyone with 2 attacks can do that, extra attacks can be split between shoves and grapples, so you can grapple someone on one attack, then shove them prone with the other.

Generally speaking the perfect grappler would be a strength based monk, so probably a tortle, who either dips into rogue for expertise or takes the UA feat for Athletics expertise. Fixed AC 17 lets them dump dex to focus on strength, and they get a BA attack and Extra Attack at the same time so they can bully people. Grapple, shove prone, then boot the boot in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 16, 2019, 02:31:30 pm

Another good grapple build is a Barb/Rogue MC.

The difference between wear and wield is the sort of thing that only matters for builds on paper, because if you try to bring that logic to your table, you're just going to get laughed at.

Quote from: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 12:46:41 pm

As for building a grappler, a shield is actually just about the best thing you can have, strictly because of Shield Master's bonus action shove. Grappler as a feat is highly disappointing, and Tavern Brawler is similarly a bit lackluster. And the two feats don't play well together, since both Tavern Brawler's grapple and Shield Master's shove require the bonus action.

Also worth remembering that this isn't 3.5, and feat slots are extremely fucking pricey...

Having both Shield Master and Tavern Brawler gives you more options, which isn't a bad thing. Or you can skip Shield Master entirely and just go Battlemaster with Trip Attack. Although if I played Captain Faerun, I'd pick it up later for the other two benefits of the feat, which are the real reason to get it. As for feats being pricey, that's another reason to go Fighter and/or Variant Human.

Quote from: pikachu17 on August 16, 2019, 12:36:01 pm

Yeah, its pretty damn bad Munchkinry to say wielding a shield is not using it as armor. It specifically says "wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2."

Persus, what benefit would Captain Faerun get from the Tavern Brawler feat? Keep in mind that it only allows a bonus action grapple on a 1d4+Str damage hit. I'm pretty sure if you're going for a grappler, there's better things to do than wear a shield.
And, yeah, I agree that actually making him a class that's supposed to be strong would be best, and those have shield proficiency anyway.

Tavern Brawler is mainly for proficiency with improvised weapons. And since anyone calling themselves Captain Faerun should be using their shield as a frisbee/improvised weapon, that's pretty useful to have unless your DM allows your shield to be considered something else.

Quote from: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 01:48:47 pm

Damage at that point is just icing, they're already taken out of the fight.

Until you start fighting spellcasters, that is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on August 16, 2019, 07:51:30 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 07:53:28 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on August 16, 2019, 07:24:15 am

'monks can use a shield as long as they're not holding it like a frisbee' is the author's intent

Except they can't, because that would be wearing armor. We've already established that a shield is armor, so wearing a shield would be wearing armor. Therefore, the distinction in that passage between wearing armor and wielding a shield makes it clear that this is a case of holding shields like a goddamn frisbee.

what no

The distinction is there because a shield is not armor.  Every reference to armor and shields describes them separately.  If you're gonna come up with weird rules-lawyery netbuilds, at least make them based on real rules.  There's no distinction between "wear" and "wield" a shield, you can't use it like a frisbee to do shield maneuvers.

THis would all be solved if we stopped playing modern D&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 16, 2019, 08:32:50 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on August 16, 2019, 07:51:30 pm

THis would all be solved if we stopped playing modern D&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 16, 2019, 09:24:36 pm

would it though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 17, 2019, 01:28:59 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on August 16, 2019, 07:51:30 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 16, 2019, 07:53:28 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on August 16, 2019, 07:24:15 am

'monks can use a shield as long as they're not holding it like a frisbee' is the author's intent

Except they can't, because that would be wearing armor. We've already established that a shield is armor, so wearing a shield would be wearing armor. Therefore, the distinction in that passage between wearing armor and wielding a shield makes it clear that this is a case of holding shields like a goddamn frisbee.

what no

The distinction is there because a shield is not armor.  Every reference to armor and shields describes them separately.  If you're gonna come up with weird rules-lawyery netbuilds, at least make them based on real rules.  There's no distinction between "wear" and "wield" a shield, you can't use it like a frisbee to do shield maneuvers.

THis would all be solved if we stopped playing modern D&D.

Well alright then; in that case there's no penalty to using a shield without proficiency at all. The section on Armor Proficiency specifically states "If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage [...]", which by your statement would mean that there's no such penalty for using a shield, since it's not armor (the comment at the beginning of the section about "strapping a shield to their arm" would I suppose just be a red herring in that case). Shields aren't separately referred to in that clause.

This would all be solved if people could write rules with consistent and sensible language.

Quote from: Persus13 on August 16, 2019, 02:31:30 pm

The difference between wear and wield is the sort of thing that only matters for builds on paper, because if you try to bring that logic to your table, you're just going to get laughed at.

Yup, that's the point!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 17, 2019, 01:33:31 am

And we're not even getting into how you can technically shield yourself metaphorically with other objects than shields. Who says that the shield you wield to shield yourself has to be a shield? It could be anything. Even a dagger. Or a sword!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 17, 2019, 01:47:57 am

Half-open door is one of my favorites.

(fond memories of dungeon master, and slamming doors shut after throwing a huge fireball through it)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on August 17, 2019, 01:43:06 pm

Not related to y'all's topic but I just got into a pathfinder game with my usual group and I wound up so far down the character building rabbit hole. It's like when I used to read 3.5 splats cover to cover back in high school.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 17, 2019, 03:01:18 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on August 17, 2019, 01:43:06 pm

Not related to y'all's topic but I just got into a pathfinder game with my usual group and I wound up so far down the character building rabbit hole. It's like when I used to read 3.5 splats cover to cover back in high school.

Char gen taking a day is why I'll never look forward to returning to 3.5

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 17, 2019, 03:20:00 pm

I have contemplated making an automated script to facilitate the process.

The problem is all those damn min-maxxers, and their use of the most obscure shit in splat books. That complicates the core mechanic terribly. Adding all the necessary knobs and buttons to allow for all that ends up making the char-generator into a clusterfuck.

If you ask me, it kinda defeats the purpose of chargen and the use of random rolls, if you are gonna allow a player to get their fantasy dream character anyway (which is what a consummate min-maxxer will do, no matter what. They will twist and poke until they get their way.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 17, 2019, 04:09:47 pm

But at the same time if you don't play a core spell caster, you have to go splat dumpster diving to make a halfway viable character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 17, 2019, 05:30:08 pm

"halfway viable character" is missing the point.  Playing with faulted characters is how you actually get enjoyment out of overcoming obstacles in the campaign.


The game really isn't supposed to be "Group of murderhobo mary-sues destroy world while saving it."  It's really supposed to be "Wow, that was hard! But we WON!"
Min-maxed characters are mary-sues. They are designed to have nothing but perks, and every conceivable source of weakness eliminated or patched over with rule-lawyer armor.

The common counter-argument is that "Yeah, but dying is no fun bro."

I contend that it COULD be VERY fun. See for instance, the many Pen and Paper games out there, like Paranoia. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)) In that game, death is integrated as a basic mechanic, since player characters are controlling a replaceable cloned avatar. 

Quote from: wiki

Setting
The game's main setting is an immense, futuristic city called Alpha Complex. Alpha Complex is controlled by The Computer, a civil service AI construct (a literal realization of the "Influencing Machine" that some schizophrenics fear). The Computer serves as the game's principal antagonist, and fears a number of threats to its 'perfect' society, such as The Outdoors, mutants, and secret societies (especially Communists). To deal with these threats, The Computer employs Troubleshooters, whose job is to go out, find trouble, and shoot it. Player characters are usually Troubleshooters, although later game supplements have allowed the players to take on other roles, such as High-Programmers of Alpha Complex.

The player characters frequently receive mission instructions from the Computer that are incomprehensible, self-contradictory, or obviously fatal if adhered to, and side-missions (such as Mandatory Bonus Duties) that conflict with the main mission. They are issued equipment that is uniformly dangerous, faulty, or "experimental" (i.e., almost certainly dangerous and faulty). Additionally, each player character is generally an unregistered mutant and a secret society member (which are both termination offenses in Alpha Complex), and has a hidden agenda separate from the group's goals, often involving stealing from or killing teammates. Thus, missions often turn into a comedy of errors, as everyone on the team seeks to double-cross everyone else while keeping their own secrets. The game's manual encourages suspicion between players, offering several tips on how to make the gameplay as paranoid as possible.

Every player's character is assigned six clones, known as a six-pack, which are used to replace the preceding clone upon his or her death. The game lacks a conventional health system; most wounds the player characters can suffer are assumed to be fatal. As a result, Paranoia allows characters to be routinely killed, yet the player can continue instead of leaving the game. This easy spending of clones tends to lead to frequent firefights, gruesome slapstick, and the horrible yet humorous demise of most if not all of the player character's clone family. Additional clones can be purchased if one gains sufficient favour with the Computer.

The Paranoia rulebook is unusual in a number of ways; demonstrating any knowledge of the rules is forbidden, and most of the rulebook is written in an easy, conversational tone that often makes fun of the players and their characters, while occasionally taking digs at other notable role-playing games.

The deal is that people get so hung up on having "THE *PERFECT* character!" that they cannot abide that character's death.  There's ways that this could be overcome, if a streamlined chargen process was used, and combined with the plot narrative.

say for instance, you could use a mechanic like the Dungeon Master computer game:  There's "altars of VI" you can put dead player characters into, and it resurrects them with re-rolled stats, but keeps their class template.  GM Fiat is totally a thing, after all.  If instead of trying to create "the perfect character" gussied up to the hilt in rule-lawyer armor, you create a very solid template formula, then such "reincarnations" wouldn't be that big a deal. The best part is, since it's the same character's "soul" just getting re-fleshed via magic, they would have good reason to remember all the traps and travails of the dungeon they just got killed in, and their old incarnation's body would still be there for them to loot their gear from. Death of their character just means their stats get rerolled, and maybe some new randomly picked (using a weighted list and random selection and filter against base stat reqs) feats. It could add a lot of fun to a session.  You just have to let go of the notion of having "MarySue, The immortal and untouchable fantasy vehicle for wish fulfillment" as your character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 17, 2019, 05:45:06 pm

Of course, this position disregards the inherent fun that is present for a certain type of person in the mini-game of character creation.

Especially in crunchy systems with plenty of bloat, there's a lot of fun to be had in trawling through multiple resources, finding obscure options and bolting them onto a framework that creates something more than the sum of its parts.

Now, not everyone enjoys this part of the game, and would prefer a simple, streamlined option. There's plenty of games that offer this if so. Personally, I love watching my players take a concept and run with it. "My character is the best at X" can be fun too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 17, 2019, 05:52:15 pm

Off topic, but my brother and I think we've worked out a 5e Orc that can run a mile in one minute with the assistance of a magic item or spellcaster.

Orc Monk 15/Barbarian 5, Mobile feat.

Base move 30, Monk levels give +25 movement, Barbarian plus +10, Elk Totem rage for another +15, get Haste cast on the Orc to double movement, Dash to double movement again, racial Bonus Action to move towards an enemy.

Movement speed while raging is 80 feet.
Double for Haste brings us to 160.
Double again for dash to 320.
Move twice, once as a Movement Action once as a Bonus Action to cover 640 feet in one round.

6 second rounds leaves us with a speed of 106.7 feet per second, or 72.7 mph.


We came to look into this after I pointed out to him how absurdly slowly things like horses move in D&D. A dashing horse in 5e moves 1/4 the speed of a real horse sprinting, and an unbuffed orc moves faster than a non-dashing horse when using it's racial Bonus Action move.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on August 17, 2019, 05:58:07 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 17, 2019, 05:30:08 pm

"halfway viable character" is missing the point.  Playing with faulted characters is how you actually get enjoyment out of overcoming obstacles in the campaign.


The game really isn't supposed to be "Group of murderhobo mary-sues destroy world while saving it."  It's really supposed to be "Wow, that was hard! But we WON!"
Min-maxed characters are mary-sues. They are designed to have nothing but perks, and every conceivable source of weakness eliminated or patched over with rule-lawyer armor.

The common counter-argument is that "Yeah, but dying is no fun bro."

I contend that it COULD be VERY fun. See for instance, the many Pen and Paper games out there, like Paranoia. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)) In that game, death is integrated as a basic mechanic, since player characters are controlling a replaceable cloned avatar. 

Quote from: wiki

Setting
The game's main setting is an immense, futuristic city called Alpha Complex. Alpha Complex is controlled by The Computer, a civil service AI construct (a literal realization of the "Influencing Machine" that some schizophrenics fear). The Computer serves as the game's principal antagonist, and fears a number of threats to its 'perfect' society, such as The Outdoors, mutants, and secret societies (especially Communists). To deal with these threats, The Computer employs Troubleshooters, whose job is to go out, find trouble, and shoot it. Player characters are usually Troubleshooters, although later game supplements have allowed the players to take on other roles, such as High-Programmers of Alpha Complex.

The player characters frequently receive mission instructions from the Computer that are incomprehensible, self-contradictory, or obviously fatal if adhered to, and side-missions (such as Mandatory Bonus Duties) that conflict with the main mission. They are issued equipment that is uniformly dangerous, faulty, or "experimental" (i.e., almost certainly dangerous and faulty). Additionally, each player character is generally an unregistered mutant and a secret society member (which are both termination offenses in Alpha Complex), and has a hidden agenda separate from the group's goals, often involving stealing from or killing teammates. Thus, missions often turn into a comedy of errors, as everyone on the team seeks to double-cross everyone else while keeping their own secrets. The game's manual encourages suspicion between players, offering several tips on how to make the gameplay as paranoid as possible.

Every player's character is assigned six clones, known as a six-pack, which are used to replace the preceding clone upon his or her death. The game lacks a conventional health system; most wounds the player characters can suffer are assumed to be fatal. As a result, Paranoia allows characters to be routinely killed, yet the player can continue instead of leaving the game. This easy spending of clones tends to lead to frequent firefights, gruesome slapstick, and the horrible yet humorous demise of most if not all of the player character's clone family. Additional clones can be purchased if one gains sufficient favour with the Computer.

The Paranoia rulebook is unusual in a number of ways; demonstrating any knowledge of the rules is forbidden, and most of the rulebook is written in an easy, conversational tone that often makes fun of the players and their characters, while occasionally taking digs at other notable role-playing games.

The deal is that people get so hung up on having "THE *PERFECT* character!" that they cannot abide that character's death.  There's ways that this could be overcome, if a streamlined chargen process was used, and combined with the plot narrative.

say for instance, you could use a mechanic like the Dungeon Master computer game:  There's "altars of VI" you can put dead player characters into, and it resurrects them with re-rolled stats, but keeps their class template.  GM Fiat is totally a thing, after all.  If instead of trying to create "the perfect character" gussied up to the hilt in rule-lawyer armor, you create a very solid template formula, then such "reincarnations" wouldn't be that big a deal. The best part is, since it's the same character's "soul" just getting re-fleshed via magic, they would have good reason to remember all the traps and travails of the dungeon they just got killed in, and their old incarnation's body would still be there for them to loot their gear from. Death of their character just means their stats get rerolled, and maybe some new randomly picked (using a weighted list and random selection and filter against base stat reqs) feats. It could add a lot of fun to a session.  You just have to let go of the notion of having "MarySue, The immortal and untouchable fantasy vehicle for wish fulfillment" as your character.

There's also coming at it the other way, where being incapable of contributing effectively or even performing your base tasks better than other people isn't much fun, death or no. A 3.5 level 20 fighter is going to be completely outclassed in every which way by a level 20 wizard. Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)in full effect.

That said, I fundamentally disagree a min-maxed character must be necessity a mary-sue that is a perfect character with no weaknesses. A lot of min-maxed characters are very good at one thing and one thing only, and part of the fun is trying to wrangle the various situations you encounter into being able to use that one skill.

Paranoia is a very different game to Dnd, from the concept to the execution. It doesn't really compare.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 17, 2019, 06:06:59 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 17, 2019, 05:52:15 pm

Off topic, but my brother and I think we've worked out a 5e Orc that can run a mile in one minute with the assistance of a magic item or spellcaster.

Orc Monk 15/Barbarian 5, Mobile feat.

Base move 30, Monk levels give +25 movement, Barbarian plus +10, Elk Totem rage for another +15, get Haste cast on the Orc to double movement, Dash to double movement again, racial Bonus Action to move towards an enemy.

Movement speed while raging is 80 feet.
Double for Haste brings us to 160.
Double again for dash to 320.
Move twice, once as a Movement Action once as a Bonus Action to cover 640 feet in one round.

6 second rounds leaves us with a speed of 106.7 feet per second, or 72.7 mph.


We came to look into this after I pointed out to him how absurdly slowly things like horses move in D&D. A dashing horse in 5e moves 1/4 the speed of a real horse sprinting, and an unbuffed orc moves faster than a non-dashing horse when using it's racial Bonus Action move.

The Elk totem rage part only works if you're being attacked or attack each round to maintain your rage. On the other hand, if someone casts Longstrider on you, that's an additional 10 feet of movement.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 17, 2019, 06:08:01 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 17, 2019, 05:30:08 pm

"halfway viable character" is missing the point.  Playing with faulted characters is how you actually get enjoyment out of overcoming obstacles in the campaign.

A lot of mundane creative bullshittery is blocked away behind dozens of skills or god-knows how many feats.  You can pick like three things to be playable at, as all those choices are both at a premium and permanent.  A cleric meanwhile just has to wait a day and pray for entirely new spells.  Like dedicating half your feats to swinging a sword just to meet some flying jerks and using your bare-bones bow.  A cleric could just fly himself or throw lightning or some shit.

It isn't really about being faulted, its about how you very well may have no way to actually deal with obstacles outside of your one crippling overspecialization.  A spellcaster would actually have tools to deal with shit, and honestly has a better chance to expand and get more tools to deal with more shit.

Not to mention dying means doing another day-long char gen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 17, 2019, 06:30:26 pm

"When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"

It gets really boring when all the character does is wrangle ways (in increasingly improbable justifications) to use their mighty hammer to fix every problem.


'What's that, country peasant person? You have ED? You need more liberal application of hammer!"  Yeah-- that's as dumb as it sounds.


Also, there's a miscommunication here.  I'm not suggesting people need to stay in very narrow ruts-- You just cant go nuts with a hyper-specific build. No, your quarter-celestial, quarter human, quarter draconic, quarter demonic paladin who has "just the right" mix of very specific features to max out every possible score in just the right ways, and blah blah blah--- is not going to play well with a more streamlined stat-generator.  That does not mean that said stat generator is always going to output garbage.

Let's use a made up potential setting here, say it's a special pocket dimension embedded near the edge of the hells, used as a "personal prison" by the actual big bad. The big bad does not have much in the way of an actual fortress of doom on the prime material, because that's conspicuous and draws attention.  No, he's instead created an elaborate dimension of doom, that is designed to pit all the would-be heros that find out about his nefarious evil intentions against each other, and at the same time, save on having to source monsters to populate it with, by abusing it's hellish qualities to cause instantaneous physical reincarnation of all its inhabitants.  He decides you are a nuisance, and he banishes you. Since he had to GO there in order to construct it, it DOES have a way out-- but the more creatures and people he sends there, the more naturally fucked up and chaotic it becomes, and the harder it is to find and use that exit.  Naturally, nobody does, and he expects you never will. He's literally just going about his evil maniacal laughter over his cliche evil self, while you and the rest of your party literally kill the same monsters, and the same other inhabitants of the hell over and over again, looking for the exit.

Rather than define a perfect character, you define an "Acceptable template", with "First, second, and third picks" for feats, Necessary ranges for base stats to use them, and some other fun things that the GM can apply (for people who commit suicide to reroll their character if they dont like the current reincarnaton.).  When/if your character gets killed, they keep their EXP, because it's the same soul being reincarnated. That means they keep their level, and all that jazz. But they get a new body, which wont be quite the same as the last one they had. (It gets different re-rolled stats within the allowances defined, and possibly has muscle memory for different techniques (feats, from the leveled list provided.)  The generator script has provisions for these, and keeps track of things like permanent stat increases, which should not be lost on reincarnation, just reshuffled. (total combined sum of stat score is retained internally by the generator between incarnations; It reshuffles the stats, then applies random offset modifiers. the offset modifiers change on each incarnation, but not the base stat sum.  EG, let's say you have a fantastic barbarian with a natural 8 on STR, CON, DEX, and WIS, but abysmal CHA, and barely enough INT to be able to talk intelligibly. Say 4 and 3, respectively.  It retains this data. Upon reincarnation, the stat roller looks at the rules you have defined in your template-- STR between 6 and 8, Con between 5 and 8, ... etc...  It then calculates how wide that allowance is, and picks random values between 0 and the highest delta permitted, and applies them to the new stats, but it does not retain them if you re-roll again. (It keeps the actual ones. It re-rolls variations on the theme set, using the template.)  It would have a button to add additional real stat points for when a character gains one (such as level up, using an item that grants one, or wishing-- etc.), and a button to impose a penalty for purposeful self-termination. (randomly assigned by the stat-roller, based on a rules file.)

So, when your character dies, the GM basically presses a button on their phone, and BLOOP-- there's your newly reincarnated character, naked and wet on the floor of the first room again, with slightly variated stats, and possibly different feats, but still within the template you defined.

 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 17, 2019, 06:37:57 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on August 17, 2019, 06:06:59 pm

The Elk totem rage part only works if you're being attacked or attack each round to maintain your rage. On the other hand, if someone casts Longstrider on you, that's an additional 10 feet of movement.

Ah, forgot Rage in 5e turns off if no one's near enough to smack each round, maybe because I often forget that fights in D&D are only expected to take place in a 60 foot area. That knocks 120 feet off the final movement speed, but Longstrider would bump it back by 80 so only 40s been lost.

Could always get people to shoot you with arrows as you run I guess, that would keep rage up.

If it weren't for the need to be an orc there's the Squat Nimbleness feat that'd plug 5 more feet on, but that's just for dwarves and small races.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 17, 2019, 06:41:36 pm

Just grab the weak-kneed wizard's familliar, and scream at it the whole time. Or wad it up and shove it down your pants, so it's constantly biting you for 1 damage, or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 17, 2019, 06:47:49 pm

I mean, you don't have to be an orc to bonus action dash, you just need to spend a ki point as a monk. You can add another 5 feet that way by going wood elf. I think there's other races that get a higher move speed bonus too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 17, 2019, 07:41:28 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 17, 2019, 06:30:26 pm

I'm not suggesting people need to stay in very narrow ruts-- You just cant go nuts with a hyper-specific build.

The game kinda asks you to.  A lot of the actually good feat stuff requires whole chains of investment.  And most of those feats are painfully specific to doing one thing with one type of weapon.

Quote from: wierd on August 17, 2019, 06:30:26 pm

EG, let's say you have a fantastic barbarian with a natural 8 on STR, CON, DEX, and WIS, but abysmal CHA, and barely enough INT to be able to talk intelligibly. Say 4 and 3, respectively.

You do realize such a person would be worse in every way to the average peasant, ability wise?  The average joe on the street has a 10 in everything.  I'm not saying such a character can't be a character, but why would someone who's bad at basically everything even bother becoming an adventurer instead of something, I dunno, safer?

Even considering 1st ed where hard abilities really didn't do much, such a stat line wouldn't even be able to be a fighter, which needed a 9 STR.  Heck, with 3's and 4's in 1st ed you actually were restricted to a single class.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 17, 2019, 08:11:00 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on August 17, 2019, 06:47:49 pm

I mean, you don't have to be an orc to bonus action dash, you just need to spend a ki point as a monk. You can add another 5 feet that way by going wood elf. I think there's other races that get a higher move speed bonus too.

The advantage of being an orc is it avoids the legal ambiguity of dashing twice on one turn. Been a while, but I believe there was a comment from one of the designers saying it wasn't intentional for Dash to be doable as both an action and bonus action. Orcs get 'move equal to your speed* towards enemy' rather than dash, so it's just a second move action effectively and bypasses the issue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on August 17, 2019, 11:14:16 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 17, 2019, 05:30:08 pm

"halfway viable character" is missing the point.  Playing with faulted characters is how you actually get enjoyment out of overcoming obstacles in the campaign.  [...]

I get where you're coming from, but this isn't what 3.x is good for. You're gonna be better off with an OSR game than WotC's D&D. And that'll also make writing a script a lot easier.

Quote

The deal is that people get so hung up on having "THE *PERFECT* character!" that they cannot abide that character's death.

I don't know if there's some specific experience with problem players that you're remembering but in a general sense, this isn't necessarily a minmax thing. For people who go for a more role-play oriented game, it can be very frustrating to have a storyline ended early by the whims of the dice; in this case disappointment is understandable.

Quote from: Jimmy on August 17, 2019, 05:45:06 pm

Of course, this position disregards the inherent fun that is present for a certain type of person in the mini-game of character creation.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I had a good time over a couple days trawling through many types of options, figuring out how they work and when they differ from 3.5 (which I was already more than passingly familiar with) and how they fit together. And besides mechanics, fluff as well – since it's a game set in canon Golarion, I was searching the races and languages and religions and everything else of all the different regions where my character might draw ancestry from, which the game doesn't require and which hinders minmaxing rather than supporting it (I wound up with a trait that doesn't really benefit me just to justify an unrelated mechanical choice and provide a plot hook for later, for example). Making characters is just a fun thing to do, if there's enough to it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 18, 2019, 04:19:44 am

Quote from: Cruxador on August 17, 2019, 11:14:16 pm

Making characters is just a fun thing to do, if there's enough to it.

It can also inform part of the character backstory too.

For example, I built a Pathfinder half-orc barbarian with alternate racial feature called 'sacred tattoo' that grants a permanent +1 luck bonus to all saving throws, then picked up a trait called 'fate's favored' that adds an extra +1 on any luck bonus, doubling the saving throw bonus I'd obtained. Another racial trait, 'shaman's apprentice,' granted me the Endurance feat.

So, using this backstory, I decided that my character was a child of a reclusive orc shaman and his human slave wife, raised in cruel conditions and branded by his dark magic until she could stand the abuse no more, flying into a rage and killing her father, then abandoning her home and wandering the world as an adventurer in search of a new life and family among her companions.

The mechanical benefits often come with flavor text that can help inspire more of a character background than 'hatched from a murderhobo-egg.'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 18, 2019, 04:26:46 am

That's always been how I've done it, too. Character first, build backstory off that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on August 18, 2019, 02:52:15 pm

I do it kind of piecemeal. Gross choices first from mechanics, especially class, and then I look for a few key themes (in the narrative sense) to build the character around and I pick details of the mechanics and of the background based in part on how they interact.

Like, in my current character, I looked at Magus and thought it was cool, especially for a gish class, and then I thought well this is a lot like a xianxia character. So maybe my character is from the setting's China analogue. And if it's xianxia, that's basically human with ancient bloodlines, so half elf, and my elf half is the Chinese one with the ancient legacy and the other half can be some local noble or something. Then I looked at details, I saw that a half elf can have an alternate elf-raised version where you are better at magic and get an exotic weapon proficiency, so I figured I was trained in the ancient methods of my mother's line and got her ancient jian (counts-as estoc) and I found that the fiend-blooded trait could make my father a more interesting character and play into my character's mixed bloodline themes, and then that supported taking a Hexcrafter archetype to represent my father's magical heritage (and hexes are cool anyway). And in there, I noticed that the flight hex fits the xianxia theme really well. And then as I was looking at the archetypes, I found that Bladebound would reinforce the legacy of my mother's sword, so I went with that.

In this case, some choices were purely mechanical (feats, spells, two of my three traits) but it's almost all oriented towards a story that I built while picking the options.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 18, 2019, 10:18:58 pm

I recently came to be aware of Universal Horizons.

Fun rule of the day: When entering combat, one of the steps both sides do before actually entering combat is rolling perception to see if they notice the other side.

I can imagine a situation where the Guide breaks out the minis and... whatever they call the play area which has a kitschy name in this system, sets it all up, and everyone rolls. Players fail. Cool, maybe it's a sneak attack. Nope, enemies failed to notice the PCs as well. What do we do now? ‾\_(ツ)_/‾

Then again, this is the system that has "Banking" under the list of magic skills. Not even magical banking like Harry Potter's goblins, but standard banking stuff. Make of that what you will.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 18, 2019, 10:28:44 pm

Is entering combat called an Event Horizon in that system?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 18, 2019, 10:40:50 pm

If that is a reference to physics or pop culture, I didn't get the connection. So, answering at face value.

The writing of this book isn't even vanilla. It's more like plain oatmeal. Entering combat consists of three phases - "rally phase", "perception phase", and "battle phase".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on August 18, 2019, 10:51:14 pm

I believe the joke is related to the part of a black hole called the event horizon and the name of the game

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 19, 2019, 03:20:05 am

Said part of the black hole being the point of no return.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 19, 2019, 09:40:25 am

Yeah, thanks for explaining the joke. Does the Universal Horizons title have some sort of meaning in the system, or is it just something to sound cool?

What goes into naming RPGs is something I find interesting, because its pretty obvious why GURPS and Call of Cthulhu are called that, and then you have a bunch of RPGs with names like Pathfinder, which you have no idea behind the thought process other then that the name sounds cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 19, 2019, 09:58:30 am

Quote from: Persus13 on August 19, 2019, 09:40:25 am

Does the Universal Horizons title have some sort of meaning in the system, or is it just something to sound cool?

Yes. "How can we denote that this is a generic system in the most bland and generic way we can think of?"

Seriously. The whole premise is taking your one character that was created in one genre and converting it (through their patent-pending method, though their patent was denied like five years ago) to other genres.

That method? "Get rid of racial features when going to a genre that doesn't have them. Magic skills don't exist in modern or future genres, unless they do. Shooting works equally well for guns or bows. Going through Genre Portals magically fucks up your brain so a high level of Sciencey Build Shit skill either results in fancy architecture or literal rocket ships depending on what's genre-appropriate." It's very "just write shit down; we're for damn sure not going to actually make a real conversion system because that's hard."

And this isn't me misusing genre. This is how they use the word. I don't even want to ask what genre something like Shadowrun would be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 19, 2019, 09:59:50 am

Quote from: Mephisto on August 19, 2019, 09:58:30 am

I don't even want to ask what genre something like Shadowrun would be.

Soykaf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 19, 2019, 12:33:39 pm

I think Universal Horizons is a pretty cool name too.

My favourite names for game systems are probably Stars Without Number or Riddle of Steel, though. I find them both to be just immediately adventure-inspiring to say.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 19, 2019, 01:41:28 pm

Is it wrong to want to run a campaign where the antagonists are two necromancer brothers from Kara-Tur, just so you can prove that two Wongs can make a wight?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 19, 2019, 01:42:54 pm

Follow your dreams, Kag.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on August 19, 2019, 05:56:24 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 19, 2019, 01:41:28 pm

Is it wrong to want to run a campaign where the antagonists are two necromancer brothers from Kara-Tur, just so you can prove that two Wongs can make a wight?

That is very, very wrong. In the best way.
I say do it.  :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on August 19, 2019, 06:04:29 pm

Does Kara-Tur have family name-personal name?
If so, their names are Wong Way and Wong Idea. Way really doesn't want you to get his brother.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on August 19, 2019, 06:10:05 pm

I am reminded of a line from Roald Dahl's "Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator"...

Quote

"It is very difficult to phone people in China, Mr. President," said the Postmaster General, "The country is so full of Wings and Wongs, every time you wing you get the wong number."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 19, 2019, 06:28:44 pm

I'm reminded of a D&D greentext where a town had a talking golem who would introduce themself with "I am Gender, I am a social construct".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 21, 2019, 06:42:44 am

Been playing BattleMech vidya game. It was based on an RPG or a table top wargame right?

I want to play that now. But instead of fighting, I want the game to be 90% great GM narrating how our battle mech assault pods crash through the atmosphere towards the battlefield below with cheese 80's music blaring in the background.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 21, 2019, 08:01:29 am

Bah. BattleTech has nothing on Mobile Frame Zero: Firebrands. Is it even an RPG if you can't seduce your enemies out of their mechs?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 25, 2019, 07:26:04 am

So Pathfinder 2e has been out for nearly a month now, apparently. I hadn't noticed, but I'm not exactly ear to the ground on rpg matters so no big surprise. What do you guys feel about it?

Quote from: Mephisto on August 21, 2019, 08:01:29 am

Bah. BattleTech has nothing on Mobile Frame Zero: Firebrands. Is it even an RPG if you can't seduce your enemies out of their mechs?

...Do they... Do they pop out of the cockpit like a steamy champagne cork?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 26, 2019, 05:00:09 am

I tried it during their free playtest, got a feel for the core mechanics they were building, and decided it wasn't for me. It heavily restricted character build options, immensely scaled back access to both magic items and spells per day, and generally didn't feel as fun for me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on August 26, 2019, 10:16:28 am

I have it.

Haven't had a chance to run or play it yet, though I'm gearing up for it - currently waiting for some preliminary updates/errata to the CRB and Bestiary come out, as well as the Lost Omens World Guide (the new world lore book that was meant to come out on Aug 1 alongside the others but was pushed to this Wednesday), and I'm gonna start my group off with the Fall of Plaguestone adventure.

So far we really like how things are looking, though only actual play will tell how it all works in practice, but most people seem to agree that a lot of the initial issues from the playtest were ironed out (though spells are still weaker than in 1e days, but honestly it deserved that to some extent - if you want powerful, long-lasting magic, you'd be looking at rituals, but their core rulebook selection is pretty small).

I think it'll do fine, but 4e also did decent for the first couple years supposedly before going belly-up. So I'd hold off for another year or so and for major supplements (which were already announced) like the Gamemastery Guide and the Advanced Player's Guide to come out before ultimately writing it off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 27, 2019, 03:55:48 am

Interesting. How do you feel they went with solving the "costs a feat slot for anything cool" issue? One of the major issues I had with the new system was that classes didn't really get that much from anything other than 1st level, and your feat slots were pretty much the only way to customize your build, and then only every other level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 27, 2019, 08:35:32 am

All classes get at least three feats every two levels when you factor in ancestry and skill feats. Seems like pretty insane customizability to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 27, 2019, 10:21:19 am

The ancestry feats are all remarkably 'meh' in my book. Used to be you got that stuff just for being that race. You're human? Oh, you get to pick either a bonus feat or bonus skills. You're half-orc? It'll cost you a feat to get darkvision. Seems like they took a bunch of stuff away just so they could sell it back you you piecemeal.

Skill feats are better but still underwhelming. If I was a Barbarian in 1st edition, I'd be getting either a general feat or a rage power every level. I could double down on combat or skills depending on my preference. There's no such flexibility in 2nd edition, where combat and class powers are gated to every second level, and the other levels must be spent on skills.

That's not even getting into the bottleneck that occurs if you want to take an archetype.

Also, don't even get me started on the silliness around crafting items. You want to have a wizard that can write scrolls? He'll need to lug around a 1 bulk formula book (that's probably 20% of his carrying capacity), and gaining the crafting feat only lets him scribe four different types of scrolls. He then needs to pay for learning the formula for any other spells he has in his spellbook that he wants to write before he can scribe them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on August 29, 2019, 10:25:21 pm

A buddy of mine played Pathfinder 2e and said, ' you know how Pathfinder is DnD 3.75? Pathfinder 2e is DnD 3.9'

Ultimately he was satisfied, but felt it has ignored advancements the market has made. Fun, but bulky and slow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on August 29, 2019, 10:29:36 pm

Quote from: delphonso on August 29, 2019, 10:25:21 pm

Ultimately he was satisfied, but felt it has ignored advancements the market has made. Fun, but bulky and slow.

I mean. That's what Pathfinder is supposed to be yes? D&D but eternally 3.5ish?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 30, 2019, 09:16:47 am

(https://i.imgur.com/tujfkZpm.png)

My dream of playing a modded Minecraft beekeeper in a tabletop RPG is now within reach. Pictured: One of the doohickeys you can buy during character creation in the crunchy and forgettable RPG from the early '00s, Fates Worse Than Death.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on August 30, 2019, 04:16:13 pm

Attack bees you say

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 30, 2019, 08:41:22 pm

I just want to reference The Pain from MGS 3 or specifically how he acts in Last Days of Foxhound but I don't know how to do it justice.
Like... he's covered in bees.  That's his concept.  It's awesome.  I know it doesn't sound awesome but it is.
Sometimes, sometimes he summons grenades made of bees, or a gun made of bees that fires bees, what more do you want

ilovebees

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 30, 2019, 08:47:52 pm

His grenades aren't made of bees, they're carried by hundreds of bees. Swarm mechanics, combined strength of 100,000 bees.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Imic on August 31, 2019, 02:28:33 pm

His grenades aren’t made out of bees, he is merely a sentient meat-sack of bees who’s metal balls are filled with his internal bees before he catapaults them at the ones he loathes with the greatest vinegar. Thousands are born and killed in an instant as thousands of his tiny yellow-and-black servants rain agony and doom upon those who stand in his way!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 05, 2019, 04:09:24 pm

May have to pick this up. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1689960671)

Debating crossposting to the WTF thread as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 05, 2019, 04:31:46 pm

If you do, please tell us about it.

I'm very skeptical, very confused, and very curious about what kind of an RPG an erotic novel writer would write.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on September 05, 2019, 04:33:07 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on September 05, 2019, 04:09:24 pm

May have to pick this up. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1689960671)

Debating crossposting to the WTF thread as well.

The weirdest part is that this implies Billings is a place worth setting a game in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on September 07, 2019, 07:39:21 am

I looked at Mr. Tingle's other works...

https://www.amazon.com/Ladybuck-Seven-Lesbian-Tales-Tingleverse/dp/1689225475/ref=sr_1_2?qid=1567859863&refinements=p_27%3AChuck+Tingle&s=books&sr=1-2&text=Chuck+Tingle

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 07, 2019, 07:43:20 am

pounded in the butt by a 270pg rulebook!

(Seriously, this would not be a chuck tingle product unless every random encounter involved butt sex.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 09, 2019, 08:24:33 pm

My copy of Tingleverse somehow arrived yesterday. But I imbibed a bit too much and was unable to read anything after a certain point. And then for most of today, I was pounded in the butt by the manifestation of last night's lack of inhibitions.

So I can't say much about the game except that the editing in the beginning is a bit rough.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 09, 2019, 08:40:56 pm

Quote from: wierd on September 07, 2019, 07:43:20 am

(Seriously, this would not be a chuck tingle product unless every random encounter involved butt sex.)

Or at least be defined by being a non-butt sex encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 10, 2019, 09:39:33 am

You know, True Polymorph can turn objects into creatures.
Anyone want to play a PC who used to be a sofa?
I think Wild Magic sorcerer would be the best class for this, using the dregs of the energy of their creation to their own ends.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 10, 2019, 09:46:46 am

Only if they have a crippling fear of people with large bums, and stridently forbid any other party members to eat foods that cause flatulence.

OH-- and a a phobia of cats sharpening their claws.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 10, 2019, 09:55:02 am

...Do polymorphed creatures retain their sense of self? A sofa-turned-cow would be interesting, always trying go get into people's houses and have people sit on them

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 10, 2019, 10:02:03 am

Just wait until the additional character options supplement for Tingleverse comes out. The author claimed that he'd like to do rules for Living Objects. You don't have to be a sofa that was turned into a person. You could be a literal sofa that is legally a person.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on September 10, 2019, 10:11:03 am

Quote from: scriver on September 10, 2019, 09:55:02 am

...Do polymorphed creatures retain their sense of self? A sofa-turned-cow would be interesting, always trying go get into people's houses and have people sit on them

Creatures polymorphed into other creatures do retain their alignment and personality, so I could see that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 10, 2019, 10:15:00 am

Quote from: Persus13 on September 10, 2019, 10:11:03 am

Creatures polymorphed into other creatures do retain their alignment

We're about to get all feng shui up in this house

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 10, 2019, 10:19:17 am

Quote from: Mephisto on September 10, 2019, 10:02:03 am

Just wait until the additional character options supplement for Tingleverse comes out. The author claimed that he'd like to do rules for Living Objects. You don't have to be a sofa that was turned into a person. You could be a literal sofa that is legally a person.

PeeWee was in a committed relationship like that long before Tingle came along. He needs to get with the times and make something truly edgy.
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2010/10/28/arts/peewee21/peewee21-blogSpan.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 16, 2019, 11:12:01 pm

Playing lots of blasphemous and thinking about Morrowind has got me in the mood to do a megadungeon campaign, just gotta see if the more old school group I know is actually up for doing anything.  Thinking of a byzantine/late roman mediterranean setting, pseudo-Christian mythology, where the gods are retreating from the world.  The sky's turned sickly yellow, the rivers are running dry, crops and animals are born mutated or dead, the world is dying, and the powers that be are convinced that the way to call them back is with the fruit hidden in the Monastery of the Sacred Vine (tree of life analog, as a mystical grapevine), which is the megadungeon.  Got lots of fun ideas for settings and monsters, communities of holy warriors and monks, angels and demons, non-standard fantasy stuff.  Add a dark soulsy element where the Sacred Vine is kind of scary and mysterious, people who drink its wine become Implementi (i hope that's the right latin, as in "those who are filled"), overwhelmed by otherworldly light that blasts out of their eyes and mouths and burns to the touch, horrible angelic guardians created by the Vine's power, emphasize the horror element of fucking with an ancient power nobody understands.  Maybe reskin clerics to reflect the state of the gods, if I feel like overachieving.

I just don't know today, in the year of our lord 2019, if I still have enough will to spend time making D&D stuff when I don't know if I'll ever have a group to run it for.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 17, 2019, 04:02:29 pm

I once did a megadungeon game, but gave my players a magic scroll. This scroll took 10 minutes to activate when you unrolled it onto a surface. After 10 minutes, it formed a portal into a general store, allowing any non-living item to be transferred across. Basically a shop-in-a-bottle. It lets the players access equipment they might not necessarily find in the dungeon itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 19, 2019, 11:38:00 am

I'm gonna be playing swords and wizardry, a 0e clone that uses gold recovered from the dungeon for xp, so being able to cash in xp inside the dungeon is gonna be a no-no.

I prefer the sense of isolation and the need to return to the surface more anyway.  There'll be factions in the dungeon who might trade if the players win them over, and plenty of secret paths, shortcuts, and alternate entrances to keep things fresh on top of restocking and moving monsters around

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on September 19, 2019, 11:45:04 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on September 19, 2019, 11:38:00 am

swords and wizardry

O hai (https://www.humblebundle.com/books/old-school-fantasy-roleplaying-books)

Be forewarned if you care about being a true buckaroo. Unless you muck with the sliders, some portion of the money will go to Frog God and Bill Webb. What he did has been deemed out of the scope of this thread so feel free to go look him up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 21, 2019, 07:09:18 pm

Character Idea:
Threnesh was a thief and silvertongue, one of the best in his small town.
He was hired for a job, a pretty big one, but not one he couldn't handle. Or so he thought.
Then the job went sideways, and he had to pretend to be a new initiate to a religious order to get away.
He acted exactly as an initiate would, sure he could get away once the "ritual" was done.
But after he swore the so-called Oath of Devotion, he felt... different.
A bit later he tried to steal someone's wallet. He felt a terrible headache until he gave the wallet back.
Now he has to contend with being forced to follow an Oath he never wanted to.
Class: Paladin.
Background: Criminal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 22, 2019, 04:37:53 am

Reminds me of werebears. Every full moon you turn into a Lawful Good bear, going out building orphanages and rescuing damsels in distress.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 22, 2019, 12:36:41 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on September 22, 2019, 04:37:53 am

Reminds me of werebears. Every full moon you turn into a Lawful Good bear, going out building orphanages and rescuing damsels in distress.

And every other day of the month you fill the orphanages and distress damsels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on September 24, 2019, 08:56:33 am

Had a chat with a friend today about GMing styles.

Personally, I go for comedy and enjoyment over everything else. Rules are only there as a crutch, and am happy to have entire sessions with only a couple of rolls. Mostly, this is because the people I play with can play this way and generate good stories.

He and I were thinking about playing a much more serious game than usual. Not dark fantasy per se, but more of a serious roleplaying experience, rather than long form improv comedy.

First, I wonder what you all tend towards, and second, any ideas on how to steer a comedic group toward a serious story?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 24, 2019, 09:09:18 am

Quote from: delphonso on September 24, 2019, 08:56:33 am

any ideas on how to steer a comedic group toward a serious story?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y688upqmRXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y688upqmRXo)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on September 24, 2019, 05:19:52 pm

Quote from: delphonso on September 24, 2019, 08:56:33 am

First, I wonder what you all tend towards, and second, any ideas on how to steer a comedic group toward a serious story?

My current group is relatively serious and quite roll-heavy. It's not necessarily my preference, but it's the gestalt tendency of the group. We did recently try to start a more roleplay-oriented game, and we've spent a significant portion of the time sneaking around, framing people, starting untoward rumors about the orc and the necromancer, arm wrestling, and making fun of a dude's name. And also being imprisoned, causing major problems, getting drunk, and brawling with NPCs who think they're tough, which were all things we already did a lot.

As for how to steer the group, just discuss it with them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on September 24, 2019, 06:26:37 pm

Quote from: scriver on September 24, 2019, 09:09:18 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y688upqmRXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y688upqmRXo)

Thanks scriver but, I live in China and can't open this.

Quote from: Cruxador on September 24, 2019, 05:19:52 pm

As for how to steer the group, just discuss it with them.

Aye, I'm sure we can all agree to do it, and probably could for a session, but the old habits come up even when we do serious scenes in other games. (And when I play, I'm far too improv-y for some GMs) I was thinking of using a rule-heavy system just for the change of pace which might shake things up enough. I've also never done an official DnD module - and Curse of Strahd might be something which would encourage that roleplaying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 25, 2019, 08:06:11 am

No worries, it was just a link to the scene in the Never-ending Story where his horse dies, ie the saddest scene in movie history.

I even started crying just watching it when I got the link  ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on September 25, 2019, 09:43:05 am

Haha, jesus.
Artax!  ;~;

That's basically what I don't want - suffering doesn't sound like a fun table experience.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 25, 2019, 12:44:58 pm

Go to these in order.
First Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFn48cysFdk)
Second video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBalrH-0bNM)
Article (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2014/09/false-hydra.html)

EDIT:Also, an Assassin's suprised crit can be done with a spell. Bigby's Slap Assassination is a go!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 02, 2019, 03:53:54 pm

Hey, what happens if you cast Disguise Self, and then you're polymorphed/beast-shaped? Does the Disguise Self still effect you in some way?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 02, 2019, 04:16:33 pm

Since Disguise Self is an illusion (isn't it?) I would assume it just creates an illusion as normal?

It does bring many interesting possibilities to mind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 02, 2019, 04:27:46 pm

But is it the same illusion? If a human Disguise Selfed as a half-orc, and then was polymorphed into a T-rex, what would he look like?
Afterall, Disguise Self doesn't let you change the look after being cast, so would he still look like a regular-sized half-orc? A t-rex sized half-orc? Would the half-orc illusion remain at half-orc size, but be eclipsed by the much larger t-rex?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 02, 2019, 04:30:45 pm

I'd rule that unless you polymorph into an ape or something, your current disguise becomes invalid due to the body type restriction and/or the size restriction and the illusion breaks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 02, 2019, 06:06:02 pm

Yes, I agree with the cold beverage. The illusion would remain as it was created unless the size change or body type change makes breaks the restrictions of the illusion.

Now, consider this: Do the illusion function not just by creating an illusion of what is there, but also hiding what is actually there? In the case of the latter I would argue that the restrictions are restrictions upon what can be hidden by the illusion. That means that if turned a T-Rex, the illusion of a half-orc would remain -- it just wouldn't hide the person outside the bounds of his pre-polymorphed form.

So it would be a T-Rex with the illusion of a half-orc inside it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 02, 2019, 06:07:25 pm

The illusion can make you appear shorter, so I'd say it hides what is actually there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 02, 2019, 06:16:17 pm

I'd posit the illusion is merely acting on the viewer's perception of what they are viewing, rather than the appearance of the actual person. That's why there's usually saving throws to disbelieve illusions. A hand-wave illusion convinces the viewer these aren't the droids they're looking for, since they're obviously something else. That isn't a human, just a rather tall halfling. But there reaches a point where the person under the illusion breaks any reasonable chance of the viewer's willing acceptance of disbelief, such as a T-Rex disguised as a half-orc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 02, 2019, 06:27:40 pm

However, there is no save for Disguise Self, despite it being an illusion.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 02, 2019, 07:07:22 pm

Depends which version you're using. 3.5e and PF both have saving throws when interacting with the target. The 5e text specifically says that you bump into invisible parts of the target's body if you interact with them, and has an option to perform an Investigation check against the spell DC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 03, 2019, 04:16:35 am

Quote from: Jimmy on October 02, 2019, 06:16:17 pm

I'd posit the illusion is merely acting on the viewer's perception of what they are viewing, rather than the appearance of the actual person.

Disguise Self was a glamer-type illusion in previous editions, meaning that it did in fact change the caster's appearance. There are no distinct subschools in 5e, but I don't think it has become a figment or a phantasm in the interim.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 03, 2019, 02:17:28 pm

A thing you didn't know you needed. (https://www.feastoflegends.com/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 03, 2019, 03:31:54 pm

What is that a link to? My browser thinks it has privacy errors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 03, 2019, 03:38:47 pm

The Wendy's RPG. They may be having server issues due to unforeseen demand by masses of gaming nerds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 04, 2019, 06:49:14 am

So, Wendy's has a tabletop RPG and KFC has a dating sim.

What fucked-up timeline are we even living in?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 04, 2019, 08:10:05 am

The production quality is actually really good, but I haven't read it to see if the rules or the adventure are good, and I probably won't, because you can keep that corporate BS, I'm into punk pizza rolls with Totinos.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 04, 2019, 08:16:14 am

I'm seeing all kinds of weird flex surrounding the game and braindead "silence brand" memes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 04, 2019, 08:44:21 am

Would you mind explaining that for me?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 04, 2019, 08:54:46 am

The "silence, brand" meme specifically is a version of the "silence, x" meme (possibly originally "silence, liberal"?) targeted at corporate brands. The meme itself is a giant crab shooting lasers from its eyes at another, smaller crab, purportedly the x that the meme's text refers to. Its purpose is as a reply, to dismiss something that's been said on the basis that it's being said by x, and therefore not important enough to be worth responding to or debunking in a more formal manner.

Pictured below, sans x.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/495/341/b5b.png)

In this case, "silence, brand" is a completely appropriate response to this thinly-veiled attempt for Wendy's to get itself Pop Culture Coolness Points with the public, because there is literally no other reason for Wendy's to design an apparently competent tabletop game system and release it for free than to make younger people think it's cool and not a soulless corporate brand bent on getting as much of their money as humanly possible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 04, 2019, 08:59:36 am

Ah, I understand.

Also, that's a spicey meat-a ball very big crab

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 04, 2019, 09:00:37 am

Quote from: scriver on October 04, 2019, 08:44:21 am

Would you mind explaining that for me?

Don't ask questions, just consume product and get excited for next product.

It might be good.  It seems to be cribbing some from 5e but using its own stuff for other elements, the stats are 4d4 down the line which is unusual but I appreciate, down the line is always the best stat array.  The adventure looks pretty big, dunno how well-made it is or if it's just a sequence of scripted encounters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 04, 2019, 09:19:03 am

They also sponsored Critical Role to run a one shot of it last night.

I'm not opposed to the idea of a Wendy's RPG, and it looks like they invested at least some time into making it look professional, but I've mainly heard that its an off brand 5e, which doesn't appeal all that much to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 04, 2019, 10:36:15 am

See, there's a difference between "silence brand" late stage capitalism wankery and "Wendy's is bad because they exploit slave labor in ways that even McDonald's doesn't". The former is fucking worthless. The latter may actually provoke research and change.

Anyway. Enough fast food and politics in the elfgame thread, I suppose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 04, 2019, 10:54:02 am

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on October 04, 2019, 08:54:46 am

In this case, "silence, brand" is a completely appropriate response to this thinly-veiled attempt for Wendy's to get itself Pop Culture Coolness Points with the public, because there is literally no other reason for Wendy's to design an apparently competent tabletop game system and release it for free than to make younger people think it's cool and not a soulless corporate brand bent on getting as much of their money as humanly possible.

Eh, the fact that they're letting their PR dudes do silly fun stuff like this is definitely preferable to the alternative, and they did it properly without being patronizing or stupid, which would be the original application of that.

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 04, 2019, 09:00:37 am

It might be good.  It seems to be cribbing some from 5e but using its own stuff for other elements, the stats are 4d4 down the line which is unusual but I appreciate, down the line is always the best stat array.  The adventure looks pretty big, dunno how well-made it is or if it's just a sequence of scripted encounters.

I also approve of the fact that it's not just using the classic six D&D stats without thinking about it, but does its own thing instead.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 04, 2019, 09:19:03 am

I've mainly heard that its an off brand 5e.

It's not. It's d20, but it takes from OSR and mid-decade fantasy heartbreakers as much as it takes from 5e or any other source, and some of it seems original or at least the source is obscure enough that I don't know it.  In some regards it reminds me more of PF2e than anything, but it's definitely a worthy system within the d20 world in its own right.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 04, 2019, 11:37:25 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 04, 2019, 09:00:37 am

Don't ask questions, just consume product and get excited for next product.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 04, 2019, 11:44:26 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 04, 2019, 10:36:15 am

Anyway. Enough fast food and politics in the elfgame thread, I suppose.

How about weirdly meta game design criticism, then? I don't mind Wendy's making a reasonably competently executed pnpRPG if that's how they want to spend their ad budget, although I would like the writers to be properly credited, but I do worry that it's accelerating the trend of pnpRPGs being art first and art generators later. The constant Wendy's puns just make it a little more blatant that the game was designed to be talked about rather than played. If normal RPGs are a sandbox with a list of rules to keep from kicking everyone else's castles over, this new form of game is a lot more like a theme park ride: you sit down, strap in, and an experience is generated while you watch. Invisible Sun has a similar problem of presentation, as does Blades in the Dark, in that both project this idea --and in the latter case at least, the fans amplify it obnoxiously -- that these are Well Designed Games with Elegant Mechanics and if they don't do what you want then what you want is bad and you should feel bad. (Jenna's Morans tend to exude this kind of smugness too, but they're after something different entirely.)

I just worry that, as RPGs become more about the books and less about the fun the books let you craft, we're moving toward this idea that a game can be good in this rarified objective sense that has nothing to do with how fun it is to play. That feels like a loss to me, and RPGs that exist primarily to be remarkable, like this one, feel like they're accelerating that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 04, 2019, 11:23:44 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on October 04, 2019, 11:44:26 am

Quote from: Mephisto on October 04, 2019, 10:36:15 am

Anyway. Enough fast food and politics in the elfgame thread, I suppose.

How about weirdly meta game design criticism, then? I don't mind Wendy's making a reasonably competently executed pnpRPG if that's how they want to spend their ad budget, although I would like the writers to be properly credited, but I do worry that it's accelerating the trend of pnpRPGs being art first and art generators later. The constant Wendy's puns just make it a little more blatant that the game was designed to be talked about rather than played. If normal RPGs are a sandbox with a list of rules to keep from kicking everyone else's castles over, this new form of game is a lot more like a theme park ride: you sit down, strap in, and an experience is generated while you watch. Invisible Sun has a similar problem of presentation, as does Blades in the Dark, in that both project this idea --and in the latter case at least, the fans amplify it obnoxiously -- that these are Well Designed Games with Elegant Mechanics and if they don't do what you want then what you want is bad and you should feel bad. (Jenna's Morans tend to exude this kind of smugness too, but they're after something different entirely.)

I just worry that, as RPGs become more about the books and less about the fun the books let you craft, we're moving toward this idea that a game can be good in this rarified objective sense that has nothing to do with how fun it is to play. That feels like a loss to me, and RPGs that exist primarily to be remarkable, like this one, feel like they're accelerating that.

I feel like this game and the main thing you're concerned about are different.

First of all, the Wendy's game has puns and fast food theming, which is consistent with its purpose as a jokey fast-food oriented game. Being silly or having a specific theme, however, are both features that are in no way counter to playability. They might wear on you for long campaigns, but not all campaigns are designed to be long and someone in my group already expressed interest in having a game of the Wendy's game. I imagine it would be a one-shot using the included adventure content.

You can say it's a theme park ride in that it's designed to be specific, but being specific vs general is in no way related to the idea that a game has less interactivity or more railroading. Not every game has to be a big general thing; we've already got GURPS for simulationists and FATE for narrativists, and neither one does any particular type of game as well as a system written just for that. If a game is only played once, then that's still a game that's played once, and it's still a fun evening. If you had to pay for the game, I can see comparing it unfavorably to more versatile systems, but this game is free.

I do agree that there's an idea of a "good game" that doesn't relate to how fun it is to play, but that's hardly the issue here. The Wendy's game is designed like an OSR-type game, in that it focuses on D&D-style play without caring about the fact that d20 doesn't let you stick your nose quite so high in the air as other systems.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on October 04, 2019, 11:42:30 pm

Remember when Old Spice released that playable character class? Or was that some strange hallucination?
Anyway, stuff like this is awesome. More RPG-themed advertising, please! As long as the game is playable beyond a funny headline, more power to 'em, even if I'm not about to eat at Wendy's because of it. Ew.   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 05, 2019, 05:30:23 am

Quote from: Cruxador on October 04, 2019, 11:23:44 pm

(-snip-)
I do agree that there's an idea of a "good game" that doesn't relate to how fun it is to play, but that's hardly the issue here. The Wendy's game is designed like an OSR-type game, in that it focuses on D&D-style play without caring about the fact that d20 doesn't let you stick your nose quite so high in the air as other systems.

I don't think that it is so designed, at least in the sense that the design decisions are more concordant with an ad than a game, like the buffs for eating Wendy's food and the obfuscatory names of character orders. Of course it is an ad and I'm fine with that; what concerns me is that they tried to make it a "real" game in some palpable sense that was nevertheless distinct from it being optimized for play. They could have put together the same puns and branding in a much simpler RPG and gotten the same amused response from people with less work, and it could still be something fun to play once. They could also have cut back on the puns and memes and stuck their logo on something that was unambiguously a remarkable game at its core for relatively little additional work, and that would have also turned heads. It appears that, instead, they designed something that ticks all the boxes of an RPG in some postironic we're-the-cool-brand package, in so doing furthering the already extant idea that there's a set of boxes to tick to make an RPG in the first place.

That's where I see the admittedly tenuous connection. This is not a Well Designed Game (tm), but it is a storytelling tool that's being talked about for reasons other than the stories that it can be used to tell, and I worry that its existence will normalize the more damaging former case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 05, 2019, 04:34:27 pm

Just realized something.
If your GM is one that realizes that NPCs know you're casting a spell when casting one with components, you can cast Disguise Self earlier, and then hide Somatic hand movements in the illusion.
If the spell doesn't also have Verbal, or have stuff obviously coming from you, no one will know you're the one casting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 05, 2019, 07:10:37 pm

My party's steady descent into an evil campaign today included brutally murdering a salamander couple whom we could have easily bypassed as they cried out to each other in horror. We then stuffed their bodies in a bathtub full of boiling oil to cover it up, and possibly condemned some other salamanders to a slow death locked in a side room if they can't break the door down.

Also I found out that fighting salamanders as a monk is very hard even when you get the drop on them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 05, 2019, 07:58:12 pm

That's what handwraps are for!  ...Made of asbestos, maybe!

Uhh, boiling oil, though...  Glad they were already dead so they didn't drown :o
Also wondering if you really meant a bathtub, and how that actually hides the bodies (rations++)

On a similar evil-party note, looks like we're doing a short NWoD thing coming up around Halloween, set in not-Detroit.  I joked about playing the vampire bloodline which only feeds off drug-users and the ST got really excited, and I got worried.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 05, 2019, 08:07:58 pm

It was very much a bathtub, and the oil was an intentional element of it. Good old fire elementals.

It didn't exactly hide the bodies, but it got them out of the way for a short time. Eventually what I presume to be some other salamanders will find out they've been locked in their room, and if they get out the evidence of the fight is now moved from where it happened to the bathtub. My working theory is that the other salamanders will assume they were locked in by the arguing couple while they engaged in violent hatesex before accidentally drowning in the oil bathtub. It's foolproof.

Well, it will confuse them enough that they won't immediately know it was the party, anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 06, 2019, 03:17:50 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 05, 2019, 04:34:27 pm

Just realized something.
If your GM is one that realizes that NPCs know you're casting a spell when casting one with components, you can cast Disguise Self earlier, and then hide Somatic hand movements in the illusion.

It's a disguise that moves with you when you walk. I don't see why it wouldn't move with you when you wave your arms. I don't think it would be a very effective disguise if it just made you glide around in a T-pose or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 06, 2019, 05:13:11 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 06, 2019, 03:17:50 am

I don't think it would be a very effective disguise if it just made you glide around in a T-pose or something.

...and now I'm imagining a T-Rex gliding across the floor, stubby arms spread like a Jurassic Jesus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on October 06, 2019, 05:52:02 am

Quote from: Jimmy on October 06, 2019, 05:13:11 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 06, 2019, 03:17:50 am

I don't think it would be a very effective disguise if it just made you glide around in a T-pose or something.

...and now I'm imagining a T-Rex gliding across the floor, stubby arms spread like a Jurassic Jesus.

(https://piskel-imgstore-b.appspot.com/img/27dd2263-e828-11e9-848e-4d10f04b03df.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 06, 2019, 08:09:15 am

Minor image could work, though, depending on whether you think of the somatic component as large grandiose waving and gesturing or flink dexterous finger movements.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 06, 2019, 08:10:05 am

Gonna play 5e Curse of Strahd tonight as a Scourge Aasimar Paladin 2.

Yeah, I'm pretty much fucked.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 07, 2019, 04:10:15 pm

Has anyone here ever been hired to take a princess back from a dragon's tower, when she had actually run away from her abusive home alongside her draconic lover?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 07, 2019, 04:13:57 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 06, 2019, 08:10:05 am

Gonna play 5e Curse of Strahd tonight as a Scourge Aasimar Paladin 2.

Yeah, I'm pretty much fucked.

WELL HOW DID IT GO

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 07, 2019, 04:10:15 pm

Has anyone here ever been hired to take a princess back from a dragon's tower, when she had actually run away from her abusive home alongside her draconic lover?

Plot Idea: Dragon hires party to bring back princess to his tower as she is being held prisoner by her father.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on October 07, 2019, 05:16:52 pm

Plot idea: Party hires king to save dragon, who has been abducted by princess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 07, 2019, 05:26:38 pm

(reminds me of plot of Dragon Half--  King hires media superstar knight to kill the previous champion he hired, because instead of killing the dragon, said champion married her instead. Ultimate motive is NOT to save the kingdom; the king wants to marry the dragon himself, and wants the other guy out of the way.  Meanwhile, the daughter of the dragon and previous champion has a crush on the superstar knight.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nmKTHFAaA

(It's funnier in japanese.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 07, 2019, 07:07:08 pm

Dragon-half is ridiculous.

One-off idea, a dragon hires a princess to save the party who are being held by a king.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 08, 2019, 06:56:19 am

IT AIN'T NO PARTY LIKE A KIDNAPPED PARTY CAUSE A KIDNAPPED PARTY DON'T STOP

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 08, 2019, 08:17:58 am

Starts getting flashbacks to the Roller's Block thread in 2013 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80900.msg4017841#msg4017841)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 09, 2019, 02:25:44 am

5e trap idea:

Polymorph states a creature maintains it's form for the duration, until concentration is broken, or it hits 0 hp. It also states creatures can be changed into anything of equal or less CR, basically.

An evil sorcerer works some strange magic at an altar down a long corridor. The adventurers begin their quiet approach and notice cockroaches and centipedes squirming and crawling all down the hallway. The fighter steps on one, and it instantly expands into the corpse of an elephant, crushing additional insects, all of which become elephants. The passage is sealed with elephant corpses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 04:08:07 am

That's a lot of concentration though, how're you gonna swing that? Does the sorcerer have multiple personalities and each one is concentrating on a different critter?

I'm still quite a fan of the gorgon-behind-an-illusory-wall trick.

Also,

Quote from: delphonso on October 09, 2019, 02:25:44 am

5e trap idea:

I am an inherently damaged individual, and interpreted this the wrong way first time around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 09, 2019, 05:11:12 am

Not sure. Magical items, perhaps? I double checked polymorph and technically, the elephants would probably be alive after being stepped on...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 09, 2019, 05:40:03 am

Quote from: delphonso on October 09, 2019, 05:11:12 am

Not sure. Magical items, perhaps? I double checked polymorph and technically, the elephants would probably be alive after being stepped on...

They would indeed be alive in 5e. When a polymorphed creature hits 0 hp it reverts to it's original form at the same hp it was at before being polymorphed. If they can't fit into the space they're in, like a box or narrow passageway, they instead pop out into a nearby area with sufficient room.

A sorcerer villain could use twin polymorph to turn two beatstick minions into innocuous fragile creatures, such as baby seals, and have them revert and be immediately in melee with the first person to club them to death.

It would usually be more sensible to just turn minions into dinosaurs though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 09, 2019, 06:50:39 am

Ah yes, a true test of the heroes' honor. Can they walk past the baby seals and the free club without clubbing them?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 08:31:44 am

Hmm. This does however open up the possibility for polymorphing the barbarian into a spider, and then getting the halfling to slingshot them into the fray.

Also, with Tiny being the smallest size, I'm entertained by the fact that crabs and bats are the same size as scorpions and cats... And velociraptors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 09, 2019, 08:41:04 am

The velociraptor was about the size of a big chicken. If you want those things from Jurassic Park, look at the stat block of the deinonychus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 09, 2019, 09:17:43 am

I kind of want to run some weird mashup between Nobilis and D&D now (no, not really).

Polymorph your punchy dudes into the concept of the emptiness of the next room. When the PCs "kill" the emptiness by entering the room, the baddies pop into existence behind them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 10:03:25 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 09, 2019, 08:41:04 am

The velociraptor was about the size of a big chicken. If you want those things from Jurassic Park, look at the stat block of the deinonychus.

I know, but that's still a very large spider/scorpion/frog. And also coconut crabs are apparently the norm for crustaceans.


And, getting carried away with creature lists, I see that stirges are just considered "beasts", so a high-level druid can burn a 9th level slot on Conjure Animals to summon 32 of the fuckers at once.

...I mean, sure, with that same slot they could pull out 8 giant octopuses or 4 allosaurs, but nothing screams "DM fiat" quite like offering the table the chance to run paperwork for 32 stirges in a fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 10:47:20 am

Animals Shapes allows you to turn every ally within 30 feet into Large or smaller beasts with a challenge rating of 4 or lower, and you can use an action to turn them into new beasts.
Just cram as many peasants into the 30 foot radius as possible, then turn them all into flies. Then they can all go take up enough space for you to turn them into giant scorpions.
Every turn, you can turn them all into a giant snapping turtle or back, raising their beast hp back up each time.
This is the best spell if you are spearheading a peasant's rebellion, since it doesn't require the targets to already be powerful for good results.
The druid should probably hide somewhere for the 24 hours so their concentration is not broken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 09, 2019, 10:56:01 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 10:03:25 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 09, 2019, 08:41:04 am

And, getting carried away with creature lists, I see that stirges are just considered "beasts", so a high-level druid can burn a 9th level slot on Conjure Animals to summon 32 of the fuckers at once.

The Urge to Stirge

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 11:42:37 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 10:47:20 am

Animals Shapes allows you to turn every ally within 30 feet into Large or smaller beasts with a challenge rating of 4 or lower, and you can use an action to turn them into new beasts.
Just cram as many peasants into the 30 foot radius as possible, then turn them all into flies. Then they can all go take up enough space for you to turn them into giant scorpions.
Every turn, you can turn them all into a giant snapping turtle or back, raising their beast hp back up each time.
This is the best spell if you are spearheading a peasant's rebellion, since it doesn't require the targets to already be powerful for good results.
The druid should probably hide somewhere for the 24 hours so their concentration is not broken.

Shame you can't combine the two; be a lot nicer to just whip up 32 obedient fey spirits with one spell and turn them all into rampaging monsters with the other. Buuut I guess that's why concentration is a thing... So you have to deal with finicky, skittish peasants.

Not that you necessarily have to count on their bravery and coordination in order to get something done, mind... Turn them all into hawks and tell them to fly up high into the sky because you need to gather information on troop movements. Then once they're over the enemy, reshape them into elephants.


Probably only work the one time though, word is likely to spread.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 12:02:46 pm

You don't need to deal with skittish peasants, anyone will do, including hardened veterans.
I just thought a large amount of peasants would be much easier to get, plus this is pretty much the only case where a peasant uprising is better than the PCs just fighting the evil vizier on their own.

EDIT: Also, if you somehow got willing targets of insects, you could turn each and every one of them that fits into the 30 foot radius into a giant scorpion as well.
Just imagine the army of millions of giant scorpions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 09, 2019, 12:20:31 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 12:02:46 pm

You don't need to deal with skittish peasants, anyone will do, including hardened veterans.
I just thought a large amount of peasants would be much easier to get, plus this is pretty much the only case where a peasant uprising is better than the PCs just fighting the evil vizier on their own.

EDIT: Also, if you somehow got willing targets of insects, you could turn each and every one of them that fits into the 30 foot radius into a giant scorpion as well.

I mean, the game isn't really designed around that. If you want grand political adventures, ACKS is arguably your best bet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 09, 2019, 12:28:15 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on October 09, 2019, 12:20:31 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 12:02:46 pm

You don't need to deal with skittish peasants, anyone will do, including hardened veterans.
I just thought a large amount of peasants would be much easier to get, plus this is pretty much the only case where a peasant uprising is better than the PCs just fighting the evil vizier on their own.

EDIT: Also, if you somehow got willing targets of insects, you could turn each and every one of them that fits into the 30 foot radius into a giant scorpion as well.

I mean, the game isn't really designed around that. If you want grand political adventures, ACKS is arguably your best bet.

Or board/video games. You probably want more tactics, less role-playing for that type of game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 09, 2019, 12:33:01 pm

So.. some kind of area effect mind control against a large termite mound (so they become willing/tractable)- followed by this absurd spell, means millions of evil scorpions?

I ask, because there's an awful lot of termites in a mature termite mound..
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1440-6055.1970.tb00766.x

Much more than 32. I'll put it at that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 01:04:08 pm

Two kinds of people in the world... Some talk about mind-controlling termites into an unstoppable slave army, some think how easy it'd be to trick a bunch of children into turning into elephant bombs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 01:08:56 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 01:04:08 pm

Two kinds of people in the world... Some talk about mind-controlling termites into an unstoppable slave army, some think how easy it'd be to trick a bunch of children into turning into elephant bombs.

Who said anything about children?
Though, that is a good idea, more children can fit into the spell radius.
Also, Animal Shape can't turn anyone into elephants. They are Huge, not Large.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 09, 2019, 01:13:41 pm

What about small Italian elephants

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 01:25:59 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 01:08:56 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 01:04:08 pm

Two kinds of people in the world... Some talk about mind-controlling termites into an unstoppable slave army, some think how easy it'd be to trick a bunch of children into turning into elephant bombs.

Who said anything about children?
Though, that is a good idea, more children can fit into the spell radius.
Also, Animal Shape can't turn anyone into elephants. They are Huge, not Large.

Nobody said anything, but that's just the solution my head was coming up with when I read about the termite approach.

Ahh yeah, forgot the size requirement... That thing always messes me up because it also says "of CR 4 or lower", but there aren't any CR 4 beasts that are smaller than huge. Welp.

Plesiosaurs seem like they'd be pretty big for a Large critter. And being aquatic means it'll clean up the ones that survive the fall too, so no witnesses to rat you out for having tricked people!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 09, 2019, 01:31:19 pm

Spoiler: They're tiny though (click to show/hide)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Elephas_skeleton.JPG/1920px-Elephas_skeleton.JPG)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 09, 2019, 01:36:14 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 09, 2019, 01:31:19 pm

Spoiler: They're tiny though (click to show/hide)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Elephas_skeleton.JPG/1920px-Elephas_skeleton.JPG)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2735 (http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2735)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 09, 2019, 01:43:06 pm

You could have a bunch of halflings in a tiny carriage on a tiny elephant

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 01:46:00 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 01:25:59 pm

Ahh yeah, forgot the size requirement... That thing always messes me up because it also says "of CR 4 or lower", but there aren't any CR 4 beasts that are smaller than huge. Welp.

A Giant Coral Snake from Ghosts Of Saltmarsh is apparently a large CR 4 beast, and the spell could also theoretically work for homebrew creatures as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 09, 2019, 01:52:18 pm

The solution to the Conjure/Animal Shapes both requiring concentration is to have two druids.

I'm hoping to run a boss fight with an archdruid soon, and I'm planning on using him to cast Animal Shapes on his Awakened Tree minions while he's using his Wild Shape ability to be invisible and laugh in the corner.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 06:11:26 pm

Wait, Wild Shape can make you invisible?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 09, 2019, 06:14:23 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 06:11:26 pm

Wait, Wild Shape can make you invisible?

Bacteria is definitely classed as Beast.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 06:16:48 pm

But bacteria can't laugh, as far as I know.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on October 09, 2019, 08:47:45 pm

And to wildshape into one, you'd have to have first seen one... not impossible, but rather difficult in most settings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 09, 2019, 08:58:19 pm

The smallest thing on a size chart I found with a second of Googling is Fine, which gets a +16 to hide. Since nothing can be smaller than Fine, it shouldn't be too hard to see a bacterium.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 10, 2019, 04:17:26 am

Out in the open, maybe, but as a bacterium you can take total cover behind a dust particle and thus become impossible to spot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 10, 2019, 04:48:05 am

Except the size category stops at tiny... Which is the same size as a housecat or a fairy. 

Mechanically, the D&D world has some very large creatures in it.

(But if you don't want to be a germ, due to needing to be able to see it, you COULD pick a tardigrade instead. Those are both sufficiently large to be seen with the naked eye (about the size of a printed full stop), practically invincible, and small enough to hide anywhere with full cover.

But again, mechanically the size of a cat, because "tiny" is as small as it gets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 10, 2019, 06:04:05 am

Quote from: wierd on October 10, 2019, 04:48:05 am

Except the size category stops at tiny... Which is the same size as a housecat or a fairy. 

Mechanically, the D&D world has some very large creatures in it.

(But if you don't want to be a germ, due to needing to be able to see it, you COULD pick a tardigrade instead. Those are both sufficiently large to be seen with the naked eye (about the size of a printed full stop), practically invincible, and small enough to hide anywhere with full cover.

But again, mechanically the size of a cat, because "tiny" is as small as it gets.

I'm not sure how you forgot about diminutive and fine, given that someone mentioned the fine size category literally two posts prior.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 10, 2019, 06:26:40 am

i will blame a combination of lack of sleep, with two cups of espresso, for my lack of attention span.

Yes. That's it. It's all the chemical's fault!

:P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 10, 2019, 06:53:54 am

Looks like it's an edition difference. So unless you're new age grognards, tiny is in fact the smallest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2019, 07:40:23 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 09, 2019, 06:11:26 pm

Wait, Wild Shape can make you invisible?

The Archdruid NPC's Wild Shape ability is different from the player ability in a couple of different ways, including allowing them to become an Invisible Stalker.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 10, 2019, 10:50:50 am

Is there any reason a Ring of Spell Storing couldn't allow everyone in the party to get a Found Steed and a Found Familiar so long as someone in the party has those spells?
And does casting Find Steed from the ring take an additional 10 minutes?

Tangent: I've heard people claim that you could use the ring of spell storing to make the Steed cast Find Steed, or a familiar Find Familiar, but this clearly doesn't work, because as per Wild Shape, beasts can't really cast spells, intelligent beasts or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2019, 11:52:53 am

Assuming this is 5e we're talking about:
It would take some time, but yes the party could do that.
Casting a spell from the ring takes as long as it took to cast the spell into the ring.

There's no restrictions on attunement for creatures like beasts except common sense. Familiars and steeds from Find Steed are also not beasts, but either celestial, fiend, or fey creature types.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 10, 2019, 01:37:49 pm

The question isn't whether or not they can attune to the ring, but whether or not they can cast the spell from the ring, which I don't think they can.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 10, 2019, 02:13:38 pm

Doesn't 5e usually operate under "rules for this thing supersede rules for something vaguely related"?

Meaning, the ring says any creature may cast spells. Looking at the rules for Wild Shape and applying them to the ring would be incorrect.

And then the GM is free to come along and say "no that's dumb, of course your familiar can't have a magical mount".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2019, 02:25:00 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 10, 2019, 02:13:38 pm

Doesn't 5e usually operate under "rules for this thing supersede rules for something vaguely related"?

Meaning, the ring says any creature may cast spells. Looking at the rules for Wild Shape and applying them to the ring would be incorrect.

And then the GM is free to come along and say "no that's dumb, of course your familiar can't have a magical mount".

Exactly. Wild Shape has no domain here because its a specific player ability, and again, familiars are not beasts.

The point of the ring is that anyone wearing it and attuned to it can cast spells from it. Now a horse probably can't wear it, and as a DM, I'd consider most familiar options would be too dumb to use the ring, but a warlock's imp or pseudodragon absolutely could.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 10, 2019, 02:25:34 pm

@Mephisto
Wait, when casting the spell from the ring, don't you still need to do the S, M, and V components?
And isn't that why Wild Shaped druids can't cast spells, because the components can't be done?
Also, by your logic, can a barbarian cast while raging using the ring?

@Persus13: Sure they're not beasts, but they have the form of them. Other than the aforementioned warlock familiars and the crawling hand, obviously.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 10, 2019, 02:44:04 pm

Quote from: Ring of Spell Storing (partial)

While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it. The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell Attack bonus, and Spellcasting Ability of the original caster, but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell. The spell cast from the ring is no longer stored in it, freeing up space.

You're performing the Cast a Spell action using someone else's stats. Cast a Spell is an action that requires you to provide the spell's components (which many beast shapes can't) and that can't be performed while raging.

It's an interesting thing, by the way, that rage only prevents you from casting spells; bardic inspiration isn't a spell. Thus, if you're multiclassed, you can still sing clearly and dexterously strum your instrument if you wish, but somehow can't speak weird words and gesture arcane finger-pointings.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2019, 02:57:07 pm

I'm not Mephisto, but I'm going to answer these anyway.

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 10, 2019, 02:25:34 pm

@Mephisto
Wait, when casting the spell from the ring, don't you still need to do the S, M, and V components?
And isn't that why Wild Shaped druids can't cast spells, because the components can't be done?
Also, by your logic, can a barbarian cast while raging using the ring?

Casting spells from the ring follow the normal rules for casting spells from a magic item, but use the original caster's stats. So you'll need to do any verbal and somatic components, but the material components are covered by the ring (and were used by the initial caster). So yes, by that logic, barbarians cannot cast ring spells while raging.

Wild Shaped Druids can't cast spells not because beasts can't cast spells, but because the rules specifically says Wild Shaped Druids can't cast spells. And notably, they get this ability back at 18th level for spells without material components.

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 10, 2019, 02:25:34 pm

@Persus13: Sure they're not beasts, but they have the form of them. Other than the aforementioned warlock familiars and the crawling hand, obviously.

Having the form of beasts doesn't matter. Beast bond, Animal Friendship, anything that affects beasts would not affect a familiar or a steed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 10, 2019, 03:07:29 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 10, 2019, 02:44:04 pm

It's an interesting thing, by the way, that rage only prevents you from casting spells; bardic inspiration isn't a spell. Thus, if you're multiclassed, you can still sing clearly and dexterously strum your instrument if you wish, but somehow can't speak weird words and gesture arcane finger-pointings.

And now we're back to bardbarians.

I don't know which would be more amusing, the dude who beheads people violently while singing Generic Medieval Fantasy Music or the dude who switches from GMFM to Screamo when battle starts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 13, 2019, 04:57:06 am

So, something occurred to me... You know the ubiquitous dungeon puzzledoor with a vague inscription or clues on how to solve the puzzle? I'd wondered a bit as to why someone would go to the trouble of putting an enchanted, locked puzzledoor to block access to something and then leave the answer in plain sight, specifically so that a plucky band of adventurers could figure it out and break in.


But then I realized: It's basically the medieval fantasy equivalent of a password hint. Wizards have a lot on their mind; they're not going to just intuitively remember the unlock code to every enchanted dungeon puzzledoor they've got set up! Sometimes you need a little memory kick to bring things back into perspective! So they put down a relevant hint to remind them of the solution.

I liked this idea both because it sorta explains a fantasy trope, but also because of the incredibly bizarre hints you can start rationalizing as being relevant to the scattered brain of whatever wizard set the thing up in the first place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 13, 2019, 06:02:41 am

I prefer just using keys myself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 13, 2019, 06:39:01 am

Keys? And trust locksmiths? The lower class?!?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 13, 2019, 06:44:43 am

I think the issue for wizards is not trusting the lower class, its trusting literally anyone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 13, 2019, 06:48:48 am

Considering that "magical company" gets less and less trustworthy the more magical they get, it makes sense for wizards to become more and more paranoid the more powerful they become.

EG, while they may start out life playing with other little children, and the world is good-- by the time they are old and decrepid, they have demons for "friends", and similar company. (outsiders of various kinds and shapes, gods of various stripes trying to tempt them into doing things-- etc. There is GOING to be a mental collateral to that.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 13, 2019, 06:52:30 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 13, 2019, 06:44:43 am

I think the issue for wizards is not trusting the lower class, its trusting literally anyone.

But especially anyone who can't even bother to accomplish the most basic task in learning even a single lock/unlock spell!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 13, 2019, 08:06:01 am

Most magical beings can be kept at bay with intangible protections, wards, circles, hallowing and so on. Anything that actually has to step through a door is more efficiently kept at bay by a well made mundane lock and a sturdy door bar than with some convoluted puzzle.

I think of complicated door opening mechanisms the same way as traps, if you actually use the area then the inconvenience easily outweighs the security, and if you don't use the area then why bother having it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 13, 2019, 10:09:19 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 13, 2019, 08:06:01 am

I think of complicated door opening mechanisms the same way as traps, if you actually use the area then the inconvenience easily outweighs the security, and if you don't use the area then why bother having it.

As a backup, mostly -- at least, that's an excuse I've used in the past for trapped entrances to wizard's towers. Things can be secure and inconvenient if they're the equivalent to the security questions you use when recovering your bank password. Maybe the mage usually flies in through a portal that's keyed to her unique magic signature or something, and the ground-level entrance is for when she's been transmogrified into something incapable of doing that so it has to be theoretically accessible to everyone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2019, 12:22:49 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 13, 2019, 08:06:01 am

Most magical beings can be kept at bay with intangible protections, wards, circles, hallowing and so on. Anything that actually has to step through a door is more efficiently kept at bay by a well made mundane lock and a sturdy door bar than with some convoluted puzzle.

I think of complicated door opening mechanisms the same way as traps, if you actually use the area then the inconvenience easily outweighs the security, and if you don't use the area then why bother having it.

I think you underestimate wizard paranoia and hammer syndrome. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument)  If I'm a powerful wizard, anyone breaking into my lab is obviously there to steal my secrets so he can learn how to kill me, so I'm paranoid as hell.  If I'm a powerful wizard, you better believe I'm gonna throw that shit around.  You go ahead and stick a lock on your door to keep a 1HD burglar out, I'm stringing my entire lab with monomolecular force fields that'll slice you in half if you walk through them.

And that's actually a fake lab, my real lab is underground, permanently dark, and full of bound shadows.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 13, 2019, 04:08:21 pm

More intruders have entered the complex, master

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 13, 2019, 04:57:37 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 13, 2019, 04:08:21 pm

More intruders have entered the complex, master

I don't even want to admit how familiar that phrase is with me...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 13, 2019, 05:19:24 pm

"Just release the torasque from the dimension box in room six. The whole of that level doubles as a confinement zone for that thing anyway. Do I really have to think of everything for you nitwits? I have much more pressing matters with negotiating the delivery of human souls to the burning hells in exchange for one of Vecna's fingers right now."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2019, 05:31:30 pm

>get deck of many things
>put it in an unlocked display case in your guest room
>display case is a spatial warping field that shrinks everything inside it
>the desk is the size of a barn and there's a monster-filled maze etched into the stone of the case

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 13, 2019, 05:46:09 pm

Deck of Many Things has like a 50% chance of dealing with intruders all on its own, if we're being fair.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 13, 2019, 05:57:55 pm

Honestly, if you can reach a certain level of output you can just give away all your failed magic items to the party instead of fighting them. They'll take care of themselves in short order.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 13, 2019, 06:38:49 pm

I love the idea of an antichamber before the wizard's main chamber with a chest full of decent enchanted weapons and a note that says "Take these and please leave."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 13, 2019, 07:41:02 pm

That's basically what the Krypt is in Mortal Kombat 11.  You can go to Shang Tsung's island which is loaded with treasure chests full of all kinds of shit and Shang Tsung greets you at the start and is like "yeah take whatever you want really, I don't care."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 14, 2019, 12:55:35 am

Incredible.

Anyone have experience with pre-made modules for DnD? I've never run one and only played one for about 3 sessions (a nightmare in 3.5 with 8 players. Took about 20 minutes to get back to my turn in combat.)

I just ran the first session of Horde of the Dragon Queen for my cousin and his wife. They're playing a fighter and a rogue and are competent players. According to the rules, they've hit level 2, but far before the end of chapter 1 (actually just entered the keep, if you know). Not sure if I should just go level per chapter or let them boost themselves a bit because they're doing this 4-6 players adventure with only 2...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 14, 2019, 02:35:25 am

With a smaller party, naturally there are fewer characters to divide the XP between. The solution would be to either reduce the number and CR of enemies so that they'll gain about half the XP of a full party, or to just let the characters temper themselves through adversity and have the campaign balance itself that way. In other words, either make the campaign easier or let the PCs be stronger than expected. The first few chapters of HotDQ can be really difficult, especially for an undermanned party limited in magic support.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on October 14, 2019, 02:44:31 am

I'd go the latter route, personally. Rogues and fighters are linear enough that letting them have bigger numbers is like scaling the monsters down, but less work on your end.

That said, I'm a huge fan of story-based levels and eschewing the XP mechanics entirely, so maybe just go level per chapter while operating faster than that for the first two?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 14, 2019, 05:06:20 am

Yeah, I didn't particularly prepare for this (came up when two other players bailed on short-notice and modules have been on my mind.) I just ran it raw and let the chips fall where they would. Without magical healing, they're pretty boned if they go forward - but that gives them motivation to get to the church which might have clerics. The fighter is a dex-build, so the two of them can sneak past basically any fight they need to.

I read a bit ahead and saw the general challenge level is pretty high, even for 4 players. There are some unwinnable fights too, so what I might do is just keep them at level two for now and cut down chapters 2 and 3 a bit - since they look like a slog to me. There's also a decent chance we'll shift to this and those other two players will join in later. I've never played an inequal game, but could bring them in as level 1 characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 14, 2019, 10:36:47 am

Quote from: delphonso on October 14, 2019, 12:55:35 am

Incredible.

Anyone have experience with pre-made modules for DnD? I've never run one and only played one for about 3 sessions (a nightmare in 3.5 with 8 players. Took about 20 minutes to get back to my turn in combat.)

I just ran the first session of Horde of the Dragon Queen for my cousin and his wife. They're playing a fighter and a rogue and are competent players. According to the rules, they've hit level 2, but far before the end of chapter 1 (actually just entered the keep, if you know). Not sure if I should just go level per chapter or let them boost themselves a bit because they're doing this 4-6 players adventure with only 2...

I've run and played a couple of the 5e HCs, but not Dragon Queen. In terms of the 5e HCs, it doesn't have the best reputation, but that doesn't mean you and your party won't enjoy it. If you're running for 2 players, I'd get them out of being squishy level 1s as soon as you can reasonably do it (preferably their first long rest). You can slow down leveling to be by chapter later on.

The main thing about HCs is that they can sometimes make prep time easier, but you still need to have read the HC through before running anyway, so you know the big picture of what's going on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 15, 2019, 01:39:20 am

Yeah, I think part of the reason I let them take a lot of time getting to the keep was because I was reading ahead at the same time. Like I said, it kind of just came up.

I hear very mixed things for the modules - and can't tell how objective any of it is. Especially when you consider the very obvious fact that people play DnD for vastly different reasons. I will say, the fact the book says something like "this monk objects and doesn't want to go with the part, but is too weak to resist," but then assumes the party takes them with you is pretty messed up. I've heard they're planning to re-release the Tyranny of Dragons books with a pile of modifications.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 15, 2019, 07:44:11 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 14, 2019, 10:36:47 am

I've run and played a couple of the 5e HCs, but not Dragon Queen. In terms of the 5e HCs, it doesn't have the best reputation, but that doesn't mean you and your party won't enjoy it. If you're running for 2 players, I'd get them out of being squishy level 1s as soon as you can reasonably do it (preferably their first long rest). You can slow down leveling to be by chapter later on.

The main thing about HCs is that they can sometimes make prep time easier, but you still need to have read the HC through before running anyway, so you know the big picture of what's going on.

One of the issues with 5th edition is it's kind of designed for play from levels 3-6. That's why Adventure League restarts each season. Characters are all more-or-less balanced between each other within that band, but it's a narrow band.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 15, 2019, 10:27:05 am

Quote from: delphonso on October 15, 2019, 01:39:20 am

Yeah, I think part of the reason I let them take a lot of time getting to the keep was because I was reading ahead at the same time. Like I said, it kind of just came up.

I hear very mixed things for the modules - and can't tell how objective any of it is. Especially when you consider the very obvious fact that people play DnD for vastly different reasons. I will say, the fact the book says something like "this monk objects and doesn't want to go with the part, but is too weak to resist," but then assumes the party takes them with you is pretty messed up. I've heard they're planning to re-release the Tyranny of Dragons books with a pile of modifications.

Definitely agree with you with regard to the people playing DnD for different reasons and taking those expectations to the HCs. I like this article's (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/5774/roleplaying-games/strip-mining-adventure-modules) quick rebuttal of the crowd of people who disdain pre-written adventures on principle. But despite that, HotDQ is still the one I hear the most criticism about, probably because folks were still figuring out how the new edition worked. A lot of the early HCs were contracted out to third party companies, and once Wizards started doing the HCs inhouse, with Curse of Strahd and Storm King's Thunder, the quality improved a bit (not to say everything before that was trash, or everything after was perfect).

Quote from: Iduno on October 15, 2019, 07:44:11 am

One of the issues with 5th edition is it's kind of designed for play from levels 3-6. That's why Adventure League restarts each season. Characters are all more-or-less balanced between each other within that band, but it's a narrow band.

That has not been an issue in my experience. Also, Adventure League does not restart each season.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 10:45:28 am

Quote from: delphonso on October 15, 2019, 01:39:20 am

Yeah, I think part of the reason I let them take a lot of time getting to the keep was because I was reading ahead at the same time. Like I said, it kind of just came up.

I hear very mixed things for the modules - and can't tell how objective any of it is. Especially when you consider the very obvious fact that people play DnD for vastly different reasons. I will say, the fact the book says something like "this monk objects and doesn't want to go with the part, but is too weak to resist," but then assumes the party takes them with you is pretty messed up. I've heard they're planning to re-release the Tyranny of Dragons books with a pile of modifications.

Ive heard strahd is good, I've only read part of Dragon Heist and it's awful.  No heist for one, it's just the same shit as every other adventure, which is a huge missed opportunity.    Its also extremely railroady, with gossamer-thin chains of logic that no group could possibly get through without DM intervention, and a macguffin that literally takes over your brain and forces you to go to the next scripted encounter if you get it too early

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 15, 2019, 11:18:54 am

I've also heard Strahd is great and haven't read it since I'm hoping someone will run it for me in the future. This article strikes true to my own experience with game-related fiction. I read several Shadowrun novels just because they got the scenarios running in my head and widened my toolbox for the actual game.

I think 5e is one of the most balanced games out there across levels, but that can severely change depending on the situation. Lost Mines of Phandelver expect a magic-user in the party, and without that, the loot is unbalancing.

Railroading isn't always a bad thing. Like that article says, though - bad railroad is really bad. I think there's a level of railroading expected from modules, but there needs to either be good motivation, personal stakes, or a likable character who motivates the party to follow the path. Without that, I think any module is a failure. Horde, at least in the first three chapters only has two instances that I've noticed. One being the very first scene. Which, in all honesty, is probably the easiest one to ignore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 15, 2019, 01:02:17 pm

I think we need more modi operandi in our 5e campaign. Currently, our plan A is to pretend we're gods and plan B is to murder everyone. Plan A often works because we're in the Underdark so small tribes of somewhat dumb humanoids are common. However, when we face something like drow or duergar, negotiations almost always become "surrender yourselves as our slaves and we'll let you live," which understandably is a deal we can't agree to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 02:05:13 pm

Is horde the one where the level 1 players walk up to a town being besieged by monsters and a dragon and they're expected to strut in like how can we help?

I disagree also, I think railroading kills the soul of D&D, it undermines the most fundamental elements that make D&D special

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 15, 2019, 02:12:22 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 02:05:13 pm

I disagree also, I think railroading kills the soul of D&D, it undermines the most fundamental elements that make D&D special

Depends on if they bought tickets or are tied to the track.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 02:52:41 pm

Why not just play a video game?  Why not play divinity or neverwinter nights or something?

The freedom to approach a situation in any logical way you can think is what makes d&d something different.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 15, 2019, 02:56:55 pm

Don't forget the emergent storytelling. While there is emergent storytelling in some video games, they aren't as much of a group effort as DnD is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 15, 2019, 04:58:11 pm

Most Railroads I've played still give me more freedom to approach a situation in a logical way than most video games I've played. And the best railroads are the ones you don't notice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 15, 2019, 06:56:40 pm

I wonder how diverse people's definitions of railroading is. Because according to the way I understand railroading, I don't meet it with the deep, boiling hatred I see people post online about it. I think it's a necessary element of telling a story, and is only a problem if it's bad.

I've played with GM's who would end a scene with "Okay, and then you guys walk into the next room and see..." which was annoying and railroading. It was an issue because it cut us short of exploration and in-character discussion. But I've also played with GM's who forced a decision on us because it was part of the narrative. Which is railroading as well, but is fine. It's even great if the story builds to that, or it's something the players all want anyway. To be truly free and in a sandbox sounds absolutely uninteresting to me both as a player and a GM. I want a plot which changes and is influenced by my play, but I still want a plot.

Modules - especially ones what run in chapters that need to be finished in that order - are necessarily a railroad. A campaign is one as well, in my mind. If you, the GM, are pushing a pulling threads the whole time to make sure the party sees the final scene you have in your head, isn't that a railroad? Even if the players don't see it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 15, 2019, 08:57:26 pm

I think it's important to have the ability to wander the fuck off and enjoy a game about selling conjured fryingpans or something, but obviously people play games for different reasons! :P

My GM seems to have a plot in mind but has also told us that we're free to do whatever we want within the world. And that's fine by me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 09:49:01 pm

There are a lot of different definitions of railroading, but I think there's only one correct one:  Railroading is denying meaningful choice to enforce a predetermined outcome.

Operating word being meaningful.  The choice to sell conjured frying pans is pushing the limits of the social contract, in my eyes.  Either there's a big disconnect in what we think D&D is about, in which case we need to discuss OOC, or you're deliberately fucking with me.  Either way, I'm not gonna just gonna play along.  That's the choice between playing D&D and not playing D&D.  As a more realistic example, the classic tavern scene is a trap.  If you're playing Lost Mines of Phandelver (i don't recommend you do), start at the goblin ambush.  If you're playing a dungeon crawl, start at the dungeon.  Everything before that is a waste of time.  There's only one outcome, assuming everybody wants to play D&D.   Pretending they have freedom when they don't is a good way to get your campaign all fucked up when they try to exercise freedom they don't actually have. 

It's a balancing act, since it's not always clear what's a meaningful choice and what isn't.  But basically the gameplay loop is "Players are in a situation where they have options that matter > They choose a course of action > You tell them what happens up to the point they have meaningful choices again."  In a combat that's obviously every turn, but if they're travelling overland and their choice is "take the north road" you may skip ahead a day or longer before something that matters happens. 

This doesn't preclude a story, but a story is something you create in-game with the players.  DM prep is about creating a situation, sketching out all the moving parts of what's going on, the NPCs and their relationships, their goals, the locations they pursue those goals and the resources they use to accomplish them, and then move those pieces in response to what the players do.  You don't write the story, the players write the story by interacting with the situation you've created.

Quote

A campaign is one as well, in my mind. If you, the GM, are pushing a pulling threads the whole time to make sure the party sees the final scene you have in your head, isn't that a railroad? Even if the players don't see it?

That is a railroad, but I don't do that.  I do envision possible ways a situation could go, but I never force them to happen, and often the the actual path the players take through my scenario is something I never even considered.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 15, 2019, 10:28:27 pm

That seems like a time-effective way to play (if I understand correctly - I skimmed your post to save time) but my friends and I enjoy making meaningless choices as well.  Our relatively-recent adventures in Watersdeep have even encouraged that, as the city has a lot of fluffy lore that initially seemed pointless.

Like when our DM offered us a sidequest to acquire a certain tavern-manor, pausing the Dragon Heist.  We barely considered selling it after, ahem, fixing it up.  Instead we started beginning campaign segments by waking up at this home base, describing the drinks and songs we served to patrons.  Expressing meaningless creativity, fleshing out our characters.

Interacting with the neighbors, who the module creators gave a lot of details for.  One character started a romance with the NB elf druid, my bard preferred to dote over the noble we'd rescued earlier, and now enjoyed breakfast with his anthropologist friend.

Of course sometimes we decide to timeskip a trivial journey (aside from rolling exactly 1 random encounter (which turned out to be "a single non-aggressive owl" three times, almost in a row)).  And we teleport around the city without worrying about the specific roads we take...  Though other times we would remark on aspects of the city and ask about them.  Theorize even, sharing our own mental images of how it was all working.

We take a lot of RL time to get through modules, but of course things speed up within dungeons themselves.  We all coincidentally played NWoD instead for quite a while  :P  Where the powers either have room for creative license, or are uselessly incomplete, depending on perspective.  Imbalanced either way.

Jeez, I was going to describe how mechanically bad my upcoming vampire's bloodline (prestige class) is, but it's pretty offensively edgy too.  It's the one that needs to feed on drug-abusers, and the powers they unlock in return are... well, mostly meaningless but that's okay  ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 15, 2019, 10:48:04 pm

Interesting. I agree that false choices can be skipped. Like in Horde of the Dragon Queen - why do you walk up to the raided city when the scenario could easily be that you had stayed there for a night at the inn. Now you're in the middle of it instead of actively joining it.

I personally DM by having a starting point (an adventure hook, a mission request, an attack) and an end point (a reward, a face-off, a dramatic scene) in mind. I get some ideas for the middle but improv most of the meat and potatoes. My players sculpt the NPCs as much as I do, so their motivations might slightly change from session to session. It happens that my players go far enough off the rails that I have to cut the ending I had planned, but it's rare. I think the games I play are free enough that players can solve problems however they like (one party got to level 6 without killing a single monster or enemy), but not without direction. I might be too hands on, but the truly sandbox games I've played have been miserable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on October 16, 2019, 05:01:21 am

I often do NPCs on the fly too. As an example, my last city guard game had the players tracking down some criminals that had escaped prison. One was a half-elf local to the city, so one of my players decided they'd track down the criminal's family and see whether they knew where he was hiding.

Cue me being caught without any prepared material. So, time to improvise!

First step in any improvisation is to delay so you have time to plan. I do this by playing up the local geography. I've already researched a bit of the background of the city, and I know a few facts from the setting. So I describe the layout of this residential district by framing it with the local tax law that states that residents must pay road access taxes for any building that exits onto a street. Thus, the building they're seeking is buried in a maze of impromptu back alleys and pathways that the locals have created to avoid this paying this tax.

Since their mission is on a time limit, they don't want to spend hours searching for this address. I've already decided the weather is pouring rain this particular day, so when one of the players says they want to find a local child to lead them to the address, I immediately grab the opportunity for a pop culture reference. Cue a small boy running down the flooded street, yellow raincoat flapping behind him, as he follows his paper boat along the gutter, racing towards a drain that empties into the city sewers. Great way to pad a few more minutes of planning time while my players start referencing balloons, clowns, and various other movie quotes.

Eventually they get back on track, and by now I have a game plan. The child happily leads them to the address they seek, and the door is answered by an elven man. He leads them inside his tiny flat, a single common room with a bedroom screened by a hanging cloth. They chat with him, he warily answers their questions, and cue coughing coming from the adjacent bedroom. Their suspicions are aroused, thinking this might be their escaped convict. Instead, I have the man say his wife is sick with illness. He claims it's some form of curse that the local healers cannot cure, so he spends most of his day caring for his sick wife. He says he hasn't seen his son in many years, and my players confirm his words seem genuine with some decent Sense Motive checks.

At this point, they leave and go on with their investigation. I'm actually rather upset by this too, since I had a great story hook I'd developed. See, in my few minutes planning, I'd decided that the wife of this man, should the players insist on speaking with her, turn out to be his second wife after the mother of the escaped prisoner died. If they'd searched her room, they'd have had a chance to find a secret shrine to a god of assassins and poisoners, and potentially discovered this elven man was a serial killer that had married and poisoned numerous wives over his many hundreds of years of life.

Alas, it wasn't meant to be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 16, 2019, 08:43:05 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 09:49:01 pm

Quote

A campaign is one as well, in my mind. If you, the GM, are pushing a pulling threads the whole time to make sure the party sees the final scene you have in your head, isn't that a railroad? Even if the players don't see it?

That is a railroad, but I don't do that.  I do envision possible ways a situation could go, but I never force them to happen, and often the the actual path the players take through my scenario is something I never even considered.

I also don't pre-plan how the players will get through the adventure, or how it will end. I make sure I have some ideas of how they might, but I'm there for the story they tell me of how they solved the adventure. I love it when they come up with solutions I would never have considered. The story is a lot better if I don't see the twists coming.

As a GM, my job is to create a world (including some characters) that has a potential adventure in it to challenge them. It's their job to find a way through it. The ending is when they did what they came to do (grab a McGuffin, kidnap a princess from a dragon, or get rid of a bad guy), and get paid.

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 09:49:01 pm

This doesn't preclude a story, but a story is something you create in-game with the players.  DM prep is about creating a situation, sketching out all the moving parts of what's going on, the NPCs and their relationships, their goals, the locations they pursue those goals and the resources they use to accomplish them, and then move those pieces in response to what the players do.  You don't write the story, the players write the story by interacting with the situation you've created.

This is the stuff.

Quote from: Jimmy on October 16, 2019, 05:01:21 am

First step in any improvisation is to delay so you have time to plan. I do this by playing up the local geography. I've already researched a bit of the background of the city, and I know a few facts from the setting.

I remember the time my players were trying to find some portion of the story I hadn't planned for (as you do sometimes), and started asking about the surrounding buildings. I surprised them by turnin on the TV/second monitor to show the map of the area they were in, so I could show them what all of the surrounding buildings were. So they didn't cause a distraction by bailing out of a helicopter before it crashed into just any building, it was the local Department of Transportation.

They did avoid going through the entryway I had spent time writing up to get the characterization of the company they were attacking correctly by hijacking a garbage truck, but that was more entertaining anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 16, 2019, 09:07:15 am

Railroads aren't bad if they're done well and everyone is on board and having fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 16, 2019, 09:27:12 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 15, 2019, 08:57:26 pm

I think it's important to have the ability to wander the fuck off and enjoy a game about selling conjured fryingpans or something, but obviously people play games for different reasons! :P

My GM seems to have a plot in mind but has also told us that we're free to do whatever we want within the world. And that's fine by me.

If I were a GM and had spent X amount of hours to come up with an adventure for my fellow players I would feel disrespected if my players just ignored my plot hooks and decided to go do random stuff. I would feel as if I had spent the whole afternoon cooking up a dinner for them and then when they came over they'd just go "I feel like pizza. Let's go order pizza!"

Of course longer campaigns could (or should) have more downtime where you could just faff about so the pacing isn't just "the GM ropes you from scene to scene to scene to scene". So it's not like you can't combine the two. For example if you take the scenario in Cthulhu's response:

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 15, 2019, 09:49:01 pm

but if they're travelling overland and their choice is "take the north road" you may skip ahead a day or longer before something that matters happens.

If then a player pipes up with a "I want to hawk conjured frying pans to farmers along the way", then you could do that. It could make for a fun diversion along the way and add characterisation and roleplay.

So in conclusion, if I were to expand on the "railroad" metaphor I would say that railroading is when you're going on a trip from Kalmar to Gothenburg and the GM-train just takes you from station to station to station and then you're there. The more fun option to that would then be a road-tripping GM -- all in all you're still making the same journey, but you have input on where it travels. You can take the scenic route, stop by a flea market or tourist trap, bring a picnic, eat at a road dive, visit a friend who lives along the way for coffee, drive out on the byways for a bit "because the highway is so boring" and get lost and waste two hours trying to get back to where you were, and so on. But RPG-wise, unless you you determine you're doing an outright sandbox/open world game, there's the tacit social agreement to go along in the direction of what the GM throws at you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on October 16, 2019, 10:33:44 am

Agreed.  I think railroading, really, is when the GM makes player choices and actions irrelevant.  In most games players need to accept that the GM will be providing some framing and direction, and that if they try to venture too far off of that they're wasting the GM's time and are likely to end up in the land of improvisation.

On the other hand, GMs have to accept that if they make player choice irrelevant, such as by forcing an encounter despite the players convincingly doing something to prevent it, then there isn't much point in having players and they should probably instead be writing a story.

As usual, there's give and take.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 16, 2019, 11:44:05 am

Quote from: scriver on October 16, 2019, 09:27:12 am

If I were a GM and had spent X amount of hours to come up with an adventure for my fellow players I would feel disrespected if my players just ignored my plot hooks and decided to go do random stuff. I would feel as if I had spent the whole afternoon cooking up a dinner for them and then when they came over they'd just go "I feel like pizza. Let's go order pizza!"

To take a metaphor too far, it can also be like spending all afternoon making a delicious chicken Parmesan for the players, even through they're various combinations of vegetarian and dairy allergic (lactose intolerant people would probably eat it anyway).

I've learned to avoid writing in any information I'm unlikely to use, and be willing to re-use set pieces that weren't encountered. Or at least put them on the internet for someone else to use. I mean, if you're going to force the players to interact with things for your entertainment, do it the easy way and just name your NPCs with puns that are stupid and also too specific.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My musician NPC they had to find (hiding from work and also gambling debts) was always described as a degenerate white dwarf star, and was named Sirius B. Also, that mission was based on a cliff notes version of a Jem and the Holograms episode.

If you know who the people they're going to interact with are, and what their motivations are, you can pretty quickly come up with how they would react. Much easier than writing up a bunch of potential scenarios ahead of time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Were they running up against budget problems when they were designing security? Are they afraid wizards and ghosts are going to come after them, but computers are fine because "they have a guy for that"? Are they walking into a half-finished death star, so most of the people there are neutral contractors who don't actually know what's going on? Is the security guard pulling 7x 12-hour shifts to feed his family, who he misses dearly? Are they surprised because they've never seen a real life ork before, and they aren't anything like in the stories, and they're curious but afraid?

Put in a few set pieces that they're most likely to see, and do the rest in broad strokes.

I'm not sure how to measure how long my prep times were, because half of it was researching dumb stuff from the 80's, watching action/heist movies, and making up bad jokes. And I stopped researching when it stopped being entertaining to me. Except the one time where they were trying to get some information from an upper management type visiting from another city. Who had a body double. They got the real schedule of places she would visit with the times and the similar schedule for the body double, but I also created an altered schedule for when she went off the rails. That took like an hour of messing around in google maps figuring out travel times and interesting locations to visit. That was the second best run I came up with. After the one made from the idiot weaboo fighter's POV (I made one run based on each of the characters, to make sure they all got the spotlight to themselves). I had to set a maximum amount of time I researched any one topic as well as requiring half of my sources to be anime, to make sure I didn't understand things too well, which is a weird goal. It turned out great.


Edit: Now I'm getting ideas of a weekly community adventure-writing thing. Like, someone picks a system/setting and a news story (https://www.newsweek.com/fire-bull-semen-explosion-farm-australia-1459673), then a few people decide on how to run an adventure based on that story, and someone (or several people) run them as one-shots for their group(s). It's a bad idea, obviously, but that's never stopped anyone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 16, 2019, 02:58:59 pm

Is there some fantasy proud warrior race/civilization that was started with a dragon attack? After all, all the strongest things are forged of dragonfire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Imic on October 16, 2019, 03:00:10 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 16, 2019, 02:58:59 pm

Is there some fantasy proud warrior race/civilization that was started with a dragon attack? After all, all the strongest things are forged of dragonfire.

Half-dragons.  ::)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 17, 2019, 08:40:56 am

Why do RPG systems seem to attract the worst racists/sexists/homophobes and full-on nazis as leaders?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 17, 2019, 08:43:24 am

They do?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 17, 2019, 08:44:23 am

It's fantasy fulfillment. That can either be a positive place for us to be imaginative, expressive, and put ourselves in others shoes, or it can be a place where those born strong rule and you can be openly racist because you're roleplaying.

Oh wait do you mean in-fiction?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 17, 2019, 09:01:24 am

Quote from: delphonso on October 17, 2019, 08:44:23 am

It's fantasy fulfillment. That can either be a positive place for us to be imaginative, expressive, and put ourselves in others shoes, or it can be a place where those born strong rule and you can be openly racist because you're roleplaying.

Oh wait do you mean in-fiction?

I'm sure it's in the fiction as well, but the people who run the companies (or sub-companies) that produce RPGs all seem to be in it to push alt-right stuff.

Your guess as to why could be correct.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 17, 2019, 09:13:34 am

And then there are people like Schwalb who, if you can get past the copious amounts of gross-out potty humor, has produced an adventure all about "taking care of" some MRA incels.

Most of the big RPG people are old white dudes, with all that that entails. Some are cool old white dudes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 17, 2019, 09:25:34 am

That sucks. I've found the community was usually pretty progressive, mostly consisting of people who couldn't find social groups otherwise, or who benefited from the safe area of expression that roleplay presents.

But over the last five years or so, I've seen some of those same people find more comfort in incel groups and blaming their personal issues on political correctness or the broad category of women.

This is a minority in the groups I was a part of, but still an occurance that was notable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 17, 2019, 11:25:51 am

I've never had issues with people like that in any of my games. 

An adventure about metaphorical incels sounds godawful.  This is what I mean when I say I don't like politics in my games.  There are ways to do timeless political themes in fiction, but a lot of this shit is so reactionary it's basically disposable.  Nobody will remember something like that in ten years.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 17, 2019, 11:59:41 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 17, 2019, 11:25:51 am

Nobody will remember something like that in ten years.

I mean, can you remember the name of every adventure you played ten years ago? I'd argue that adventures in and of themselves are disposable. Adventures being carried forward into new editions or other game systems are a rarity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 17, 2019, 12:08:07 pm

So, why are bardbarians somewhat common? I would think combining a full spellcaster with someone who can't cast spells in battle would be a poor idea.
At least a paladin/barbarian can still smite.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 17, 2019, 12:15:50 pm

Barbarians can still use all the non-spellcasting features of bards while raging, primarily bardic inspiration which can be used to good effect in melee by the more combat oriented bards, and a lot of spells on the Bard list are better used out of combat anyway.

Despite being a full caster in 5e Bard is the least full castery of the spellcasters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 17, 2019, 12:21:07 pm

You also don't have to rage as a barbarian in combat, it just helps you tank damage, and a few other things depending on your subclass. So you can still stay at the back and cast stuff for a few turns if you don't want to rage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 17, 2019, 12:22:29 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 17, 2019, 12:15:50 pm

Despite being a full caster in 5e Bard is the least full castery of the spellcasters.

I would argue that Paladin and Eldritch Knight are less full castery, but I think I get what you actually mean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 17, 2019, 01:14:30 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 17, 2019, 12:22:29 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 17, 2019, 12:15:50 pm

Despite being a full caster in 5e Bard is the least full castery of the spellcasters.

I would argue that Paladin and Eldritch Knight are less full castery, but I think I get what you actually mean.

I'd call that an easy argument because neither paladins or eldritch knights are full casters at all

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 17, 2019, 01:16:39 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 17, 2019, 01:14:30 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 17, 2019, 12:22:29 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 17, 2019, 12:15:50 pm

Despite being a full caster in 5e Bard is the least full castery of the spellcasters.

I would argue that Paladin and Eldritch Knight are less full castery, but I think I get what you actually mean.

I'd call that an easy argument because neither paladins or eldritch knights are full casters at all

He didn't say they were the least full castery of the full casters. But we're just quibbling over terminology here, the point is his point makes sense to me.

I would argue that Paladin(2nd level min) and Warlock are pretty decent Barbarian multiclasses as well.
What should their portmantau be?
Barbladin? Palarian? Wararian? Barblock?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 17, 2019, 01:36:44 pm

Ogier.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 17, 2019, 01:51:01 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 17, 2019, 12:15:50 pm

.
Despite being a full caster in 5e Bard is the least full castery of the spellcasters.

We counting Warlock there? And how do you define "full caster"? 'Cause Bard technically has the largest potential selection, and certainly more slots than Warlock, and also attack cantrips, sooo... I dunno man.

Speaking of similar things, I've been fiddling with the idea of a mountain dwarf wizard focusing strength and constitution over int... Plenty of utility spells, free medium armor and weapons proficiencies... Quirky!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 17, 2019, 02:22:23 pm

I personally consider warlock more of a half caster or 2/3rds caster, it's basically an eldritch knight fighter that specialises in cantrip based archery (eldritch blast compares pretty well with archery fighters) or a support caster with a few side gimmicks. 2 spells per short rest isn't a whole lot to work with in my experience when the actual full casters can drop major spells and a smattering of minors in basically every encounter. Especially since a lot of warlock spells don't benefit from being upcast.

I've personally gotten more mileage out of the beast speech invocation than my actual spell slots anyway.



And yeah, mountain dwarf wizard is a good combo for wading into melee. SCAG cantrips for melee, good access to buffs and some of the subclasses for wizard are not too shabby for getting up close and personal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 17, 2019, 02:58:33 pm

Technically Warlocks don't have Spellcasting class feature.

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 17, 2019, 01:16:39 pm

I would argue that Paladin(2nd level min) and Warlock are pretty decent Barbarian multiclasses as well.
What should their portmantau be?
Barbladin? Palarian? Wararian? Barblock?

Barbadin is probably the most common I've seen

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 17, 2019, 04:42:29 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 17, 2019, 02:22:23 pm

And yeah, mountain dwarf wizard is a good combo for wading into melee. SCAG cantrips for melee, good access to buffs and some of the subclasses for wizard are not too shabby for getting up close and personal.

Yeah, this is pure vanilla, but I'm trying to build up a repertoire of "non-optimal" characters for the event I get into a casual DnD group and don't want to tilt the power level too much. So dwarf with max strength and good con, but just somewhere around 14 int. Stack up buffs and other stuff that doesn't check spellcaster stat, then wade into melee with a warhammer for funtimes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on October 18, 2019, 01:18:17 pm

I must say, I greatly approve of the new Unearthed Arcana (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/fighter-ranger-rogue) that came out yesterday. Such fun concepts they're playing with!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 02:14:45 pm

With a quick glance, the 13th level Revived feature looks too situational, but then again I don't remember the other Rogue subclass features at that level, so it might be totally in-line.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 18, 2019, 02:15:22 pm

Quote from: Superdorf on October 18, 2019, 01:18:17 pm

I must say, I greatly approve of the new Unearthed Arcana (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/fighter-ranger-rogue) that came out yesterday. Such fun concepts they're playing with!

I originally thought you were being sarcastic, but I just started reading and haven't really made my mind up yet. Also, as with any good UA, I'm already seeing stuff that's imba as fucking fuck!


As an amusing sidenote: The names of the runes the rune knight can inscribe are basically just Norwegian/Scandinavian words. This is particularly entertaining because a couple of them suffer from Google Translate syndrome.

Haug ("hill"), for example, is just straight up the Norwegian word for a heap or pile. But I especially giggled at Uvar ("storm"), because that's just "uvær" without the fancy character. Uvær literally just means "bad weather".

Also holy fuck "for 1 minute, use your reaction to impose advantage or disadvantage on any attack roll, saving throw or ability check made by you or another creature within 60 feet of you", and on a short rest. That's hilariously broken.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 18, 2019, 02:18:20 pm

Rune Knight's probably going to get toned down, but none of its abilities are stuff I'd consider broken. There's a lot of fighter builds that rely on using reactions, and lots of sources of advantage and disadvantage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 02:24:16 pm

Do you a lot of sources give disadvantage to a saving throw once a round for a minute?
Use alongside someone with Contagion. Give advantage to the attack roll, and then give disadvantage to all 5 Saves.

Also, a Revived doesn't need an action to deal Sneak Attack damage. How can this be used?
EDIT:Oh, and it doesn't require a weapon, advantage, or someone near your enemy to deal the damage, just need to use a bonus action for Hide, Disengage or Dash.
You can dash two times in a turn and still deal damage. Tabaxi Revived anyone?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 18, 2019, 02:29:49 pm

That would make Contagion much more worthwhile to use for sure.

Revived's third level ability will probably get a rework cause you can Sneak Attack with Cunning Action and then Ready an action and use that to sneak attack too. Which is doable in other ways, but it generally requires you to be a higher level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 02:31:45 pm

Contagion is very good even without the dis/advantages.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 18, 2019, 02:33:22 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 02:31:45 pm

Contagion is very good even without the dis/advantages.

Its alright when you're not trying to kill the person you're hitting with it. Otherwise combat is usually over before it does its job.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 18, 2019, 02:42:19 pm

Okay, so I started reading the Swarmkeeper section and immediately thought it was this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/C15DuSI.jpg)

...but then I kept reading, and

Quote

You magically attract a swarm of fey spirits that    look like Tiny beasts of your choice.

Tiny beasts. Tiny. Beasts. We just had this discussion!

Cat. CR 0. Unaligned. Tiny beast.

Crazy cat lady ranger, activate! A swarm of cats crawling all over you at all times! Angry cats fly alongside your arrows! A seething feline mass makes you float into the air! Summon a 30 foot sphere that's fucking filled with cats!

Like, geeze, I don't even care that they used wriggling squids as an example in the lead-in text. Cats.

Also never be trapped or locked up again because hilarious teleportation, but mostly cats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on October 18, 2019, 02:44:10 pm

Well now I want that as well

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 02:44:41 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 18, 2019, 02:42:19 pm

Okay, so I started reading the Swarmkeeper section and immediately thought it was this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/C15DuSI.jpg)

...but then I kept reading, and

Quote

You magically attract a swarm of fey spirits that    look like Tiny beasts of your choice.

Tiny beasts. Tiny. Beasts. We just had this discussion!

Cat. CR 0. Unaligned. Tiny beast.

Wait, are those target-able by Animal Shape?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 18, 2019, 02:48:12 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 02:44:41 pm

Wait, are those target-able by Animal Shape?

Nope, they're not actually creatures. It's just an indistinct "swarm" with an undefined number of individual members.

EDIT: Oh, right. If you're using Volo's, "Tiny beast" also includes velociraptors. Enjoy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 18, 2019, 03:12:31 pm

And with the activated use of Gathered Swarm, you can have an undefined number of the velociraptors grab hold of your arrows as you loose them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 03:32:23 pm

Don't forget, at level 7, they are flying velociraptors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 18, 2019, 07:32:51 pm

I think I'm more interested in the non-combat abilities of these archetypes. Like, a lvl 11 Swarmkeeper can send out a not-familiar to somewhere and then teleport to replace it. Cool for infiltrating a place, or you can send them ahead on your commute or before a ball while you get ready, then pop up in place of your dove or whatever. Definitely a good way to make an entrance.

Also, the Revived is good at avoiding succumbing to death, and they can ask an entity of death questions while dying, so you can stab yourself until you go unconscious, then ask Death what you need to know, and most likely survive to use the answers (probably best to have a cleric or some other healer around when you do this, though). Also cool that they can cast Speak With Dead on a short rest basis and gain a temporary bonus proficiency.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2019, 09:46:36 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 03:32:23 pm

they are flying velociraptors.

So

Birds?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on October 18, 2019, 09:47:37 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2019, 09:46:36 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 03:32:23 pm

they are flying velociraptors.

So

Birds?

with teeth

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2019, 09:55:38 pm

Quote from: scourge728 on October 18, 2019, 09:47:37 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2019, 09:46:36 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 18, 2019, 03:32:23 pm

they are flying velociraptors.

So

Birds?

with teeth

So

Geese?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 18, 2019, 10:04:10 pm

Swarm ranger except the swarm is fish and we're on land.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 18, 2019, 10:06:11 pm

So I pass notes. Lots of them. But I'm planning an improv session -3 for a game I'm running and I need random notes. Market sale prices, local gossip, arrogant braggart talk, anything to fill note cards. Player tension is a goal of mine due to plot stuff, so note passing helps keep them on edge.

Help me Bay12, you're my only hope.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2019, 10:20:18 pm

"I heard they use curved swords"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 18, 2019, 10:31:08 pm

"So how 'bout that local sports team?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on October 18, 2019, 10:40:13 pm

I have no idea what sort of stuff you're even looking for here, but I'll try and throw out a few words!

---

You notice two men bellowing at each other in a market stall across the street: a fishmonger, and his would-be customer. They appear to be arguing vigorously over the price of a particularly pungent salmon.

Wisdom (Perception) DC 15: Despite the fierce words of these two men, there's a certain levity about their voices and a certain energy about the way they move that betrays their argument as something less than sincere. You suspect the two to be very good friends.

---

A chubby, black-bearded man in extravagant purple robes trots through the crowd to some unseen destination. Behind him an enormous fellow with a club pushes his way along, repeating over and over again: "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

---

In a nearby alleyway, a mangy cat stalks an enormously fat pigeon. The pigeon bursts into the air and flaps heavily off, emitting loud angry-pigeon noises all the while. If you didn't know better, you could swear the bird was cussing out its would-be assassin.

Wisdom (Perception) DC 10: On closer inspection, the pigeon appears to be wearing a tiny red cap and a smart black vest!

---

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 18, 2019, 10:45:13 pm

Open last week's newspaper and write down some of the more ominous news titles.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/clumsy_foreshadowing.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2019, 10:55:44 pm

Quote from: Sirus on October 18, 2019, 10:31:08 pm

"So how 'bout that local sports team?"

Did you see that ludicrous display?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 18, 2019, 11:06:34 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 18, 2019, 09:55:38 pm

So

Geese?

Predictable!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 19, 2019, 03:22:05 am

Quote from: delphonso on October 18, 2019, 10:04:10 pm

Swarm ranger except the swarm is fish and we're on land.

Piranha 4: This time, they've brought a friend

Also, fey or no fey, I highly doubt that a swarmkeeper is someone who'll get many invitations to a formal ball. Remember that they always have their swarm on them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 19, 2019, 05:57:11 am

No, no, you must invite them to every ball. That way they can feel superior by actively refusing and won't crash the party out of spite. Rangers in general are smug about not needing urban conveniences and being at home in nature.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 19, 2019, 07:02:27 am

Forgotten Realms are weird enough that a person covered in worms would probably be a hit at parties. Kenku love 'em!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 19, 2019, 07:49:31 am

Considering the worms poof away to the Feywild when they die, it's tasty snackfood that won't even make you fat!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 19, 2019, 07:51:11 am

You guys are missing the obvious here.

Our swarm master, is in fact--- The seafood chef, hired by the manor house to cater the event.  That's how they got the discount on super fresh prawn.

(also, from what I am understanding here, the swarm does not have to be alive to serve as the locus for the free teleportation. Said caterer can in fact, murder the entire guest list at will, after they gorge themselves on the unlimited seafood buffet, by telefragging them in rapid succesion.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 19, 2019, 09:13:08 am

I got food poisoning from buffet shrimp once.

Doesn't seem so bad in comparison...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 19, 2019, 03:05:06 pm

Sure, a Swarmkeeper could surround themselves with disgusting vermin, but they could just as easily have magical songbirds or butterflies instead. Honestly, this is probably the closest any D&D character can get to being a Disney princess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 21, 2019, 09:18:22 am

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 18, 2019, 10:06:11 pm

So I pass notes. Lots of them. But I'm planning an improv session -3 for a game I'm running and I need random notes. Market sale prices, local gossip, arrogant braggart talk, anything to fill note cards. Player tension is a goal of mine due to plot stuff, so note passing helps keep them on edge.

Help me Bay12, you're my only hope.

"Did you hear that Marisha was cheating on John with a tiefling?"
"No!"
"I know, right? 10 years of marriage, down the drain? Just for a fling!"

"Getcha fresh fly brains! Getcha fly brains here! A delicacy from [Place Name]!"

"The world is doomed, but the prophecies say [number of PCs] heroes will stop the end!"
"Go home Ned, you're drunk."

"Fos Ro Dah." -random Dragonborn

"They say the only thing that can kill a Shambling Mound is a good round of lightning."

You see a man say "Rakshasas don't exist! Don't be silly!". As he walks away you could have sworn his hands were backward...

"They say only magic can kill a flesh golem."

"A kenku stole 10 Gp from me! Why can't we just exterminate the vermin?"

"No, stabbing a rakshasa with a rapier ain't gonna work. No, what you need to do, is have a wizard cast Acid Splash on it, then it's sure to die."

"Some kind of big blue humanoid frog just showed up and clawed me, and ran off! Now I feel a bit sick..."

"I've been invited to an illithid dinner. What's an illithid?"

"Remember Fred, cats can sense fear."

"Just put a horseshoe on your door, and the fey'll leave you alone."

You hear a man shout, "The snake people are infiltrating our society! Wake up sheeple!"
You see a bunch of sheep folk wake up from their slumber.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 21, 2019, 11:07:46 am

Ah, you want "they say" type rumours? Look no further than Nethack's lists of true (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.6.1/dat/rumors.tru) and false (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.6.1/dat/rumors.fal) ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 21, 2019, 11:12:19 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 21, 2019, 11:07:46 am

Ah, you want "they say" type rumours? Look no further than Nethack's lists of true (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.6.1/dat/rumors.tru) and false (https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.6.1/dat/rumors.fal) ones.

How many of those would a DnD character say, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 21, 2019, 11:14:53 am

"Gnolls and fire? Pht--"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 21, 2019, 11:42:45 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 21, 2019, 11:12:19 am

How many of those would a DnD character say, though?

Surprisingly many.

Quote

83. I wouldn't advise playing catch with a giant.
173. They say that Juiblex is afraid of a wand of digging.
254. They say that monsters never step on a scare monster scroll.
361. You might be able to bribe a demon lord.

73. Floating eyes (beholders) can't stand Hawaiian shirts.
165. The longer the wand the better.
257. They say that if you sleep with a demon you might awake with a headache.
348. They say that you should never introduce a rope golem to a succubus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 21, 2019, 01:01:03 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 18, 2019, 10:06:11 pm

So I pass notes. Lots of them. But I'm planning an improv session -3 for a game I'm running and I need random notes. Market sale prices, local gossip, arrogant braggart talk, anything to fill note cards. Player tension is a goal of mine due to plot stuff, so note passing helps keep them on edge.

Help me Bay12, you're my only hope.

"Don't look, but they're plotting against you."

"They're onto you."

"You suddenly remember the first meatball sub you ever ate."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 21, 2019, 01:17:59 pm

Quote from: Iduno on October 21, 2019, 01:01:03 pm

Quote from: Hanslanda on October 18, 2019, 10:06:11 pm

So I pass notes. Lots of them. But I'm planning an improv session -3 for a game I'm running and I need random notes. Market sale prices, local gossip, arrogant braggart talk, anything to fill note cards. Player tension is a goal of mine due to plot stuff, so note passing helps keep them on edge.

Help me Bay12, you're my only hope.

"Don't look, but they're plotting against you."

"They're onto you."

"You suddenly remember the first meatball sub you ever ate."

You suddenly remember you are a fictional character played by [Player name], but then you forget.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 21, 2019, 07:34:49 pm

I DMed for the first time in a long  time last night... And rocked it out of the park. My two hour plans turned into four hours of play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 21, 2019, 11:59:02 pm

Nice, Hanslanda! Tell us what you did?

Did you run an premade adventure or did you make your own?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 22, 2019, 09:16:35 am

It was a pre-campaign test session to get the group backstory and feel for play down, so I set a basic framework down then just improv-ed wildly.

Highlights included:
-They brutally murdered terrified bandits, then made friends with a posse of hobgoblins.
-Met with a contact that they'd been guided to by the (they don't know it yet) BBEG, immediately subverted them, and accidentally got them executed by a corrupt nobleman.
-Frustrated said noble to no end trying to renegotiate their contract before they even received it.
-Took another contract to murder a merchant and did so rather well.
-Accidentally pissed off an Archmage Gnome while he was spying on his girlfriend in bird form, and stole his hat.
-Shit talked the Level 20 Fighter BBEG with Fast Healing 30 in the middle of a market crawling with his assassins, paid off guards, and invisible magical backup. He still offered them magical items to subvert a noble.
-Despite all this they are still playing directly into my trap and haven't managed to derail my plot plan. I'm going to have them framed (very little framing actually, the evil little shits are digging a deep enough hole) and either captured and sent to Not-Australia or they'll be forced to flee... To Not-Australia.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 22, 2019, 06:36:23 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gUcx45ryT0
I just found this, haven't watched yet.
Thought you guys might like it, or might like lampooning it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 25, 2019, 12:49:40 pm

I noticed something interesting that happens if you use RAW with Heat Metal.
It only affects creatures in contact with the metal, so someone wearing clothing under all their armor is completely unaffected by the spell, and their clothing is unaffected as well.
But if the targeted armor wearer grapples with someone, that creature will take the damage if they are in contact with the armor at all.

Also, what precisely is unmanufactured metal? The spell doesn't target that.

EDIT:Additional thought. What is the maximum size of something you can target with the spell? Would an entire metal castle count?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on October 25, 2019, 01:02:45 pm

I'd assume that's raw ore, fresh from the mines or the pans and not yet smelted or formed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 25, 2019, 04:08:40 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 25, 2019, 12:49:40 pm

I noticed something interesting that happens if you use RAW with Heat Metal.
It only affects creatures in contact with the metal, so someone wearing clothing under all their armor is completely unaffected by the spell, and their clothing is unaffected as well.
But if the targeted armor wearer grapples with someone, that creature will take the damage if they are in contact with the armor at all.

Also, what precisely is unmanufactured metal? The spell doesn't target that.

EDIT:Additional thought. What is the maximum size of something you can target with the spell? Would an entire metal castle count?

You could try arguing that, but that'd be stupid, since almost no armour has metal in direct contact with skin anyway - they'll all have layers of padding beneath them, and indeed almost all of them describe armour as splint/maille/whatever on leather, or cloth. Wearing clothing beneath doesn't mean you're not in contact with the object, which is what matters, and to argue someone isn't in contact with armour they're wearing is... well, absurd. It's be like saying Heat Metal shouldn't work on a sword, because the handle is wrapped in leather.

An unmanufactured metal object... plenty of metals can be found in their pure form naturally. Gold nuggets, for instance. Metal meteorites.

A castle would not be an object.

Quote

For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects.

No size limit is assigned to Heat Metal, so you might be able to heat one of the walls if your GM is feeling generous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 25, 2019, 04:43:43 pm

I suppose it makes sense in a Dnd context, since touch spells can be cast while wearing full armor, but what exactly is physical contact then?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 25, 2019, 05:05:08 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 25, 2019, 04:43:43 pm

I suppose it makes sense in a Dnd context, since touch spells can be cast while wearing full armor, but what exactly is physical contact then?

Presumably its a blanket term for holding, wearing, or touching the object in question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 25, 2019, 07:09:32 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on October 25, 2019, 04:08:40 pm

A castle would not be an object.

So, I can't heat metal the entire city of Dis?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on October 25, 2019, 07:39:40 pm

The definition of object is: a material thing that can be seen and touched, which is actually pretty unhelpful for fantasy or sci-fi because then something invisible ceases to be an object, but still, under that definition, a castle counts as an object, a city counts as an object, basically anything made of metal counts as a metal object, it's a really poor definition, but it's the one Google gives me so eh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 25, 2019, 08:13:08 pm

but a thing is an social constructile meeting between parts to air grievances and work out disagreements

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 25, 2019, 08:28:45 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 25, 2019, 07:09:32 pm

So, I can't heat metal the entire city of Dis?

I don't think that would change a lot, considering where Dis is and who lives there...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 25, 2019, 09:49:51 pm

Someone already cast Heat Metal on Dis's entire plane of existence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on October 26, 2019, 03:27:28 am

Quote from: scourge728 on October 25, 2019, 07:39:40 pm

The definition of object is: a material thing that can be seen and touched, which is actually pretty unhelpful for fantasy or sci-fi because then something invisible ceases to be an object, but still, under that definition, a castle counts as an object, a city counts as an object, basically anything made of metal counts as a metal object, it's a really poor definition, but it's the one Google gives me so eh.

The definition given by the game, however, is specific in saying a building is not an object but a collection of discrete objects like doors, walls, windows, etc.

Quote from: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/running-the-game#Objects

When characters need to saw through ropes, shatter a window, or smash a vampire's coffin, the only hard and fast rule is this: given enough time and the right tools, characters can destroy any destructible object.

Use common sense when determining a character's success at damaging an object. Can a fighter cut through a section of a stone wall with a sword? No, the sword is likely to break before the wall does.

For the purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects.

Quote from: scriver on October 25, 2019, 08:13:08 pm

but a thing is an social constructile meeting between parts to air grievances and work out disagreements

No, a thing is an ancient alien found in antartica that destroys a research station

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 26, 2019, 04:00:23 am

Speaking of which, how much damage do you need to put out to be an effective siege weapon?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 26, 2019, 04:09:06 am

Effective siege weapon is just sustained DoS to a castle or province.

Well placed vortex spells would be quite effective. Arrows from ramparts would be mostly useless, if the vortex was up level with the ramparts. Siege workers and battering rams could do thier thibg without harassment.

Summoned air elemental, like a jinn, would be bad ass at this too.

Just remember tgat there would be mages inside th castle too.

Personally, i would suggest a fire elemental as siege engine. Boiling oil is just a yummy snack, and arrows are made of wood and similarly edible. Cut the defenders off from water or other means of combatting the menace at the gate, and you can buen down the door and melt the portcullus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 26, 2019, 04:15:36 am

Quote from: Cruxador on October 26, 2019, 04:00:23 am

Speaking of which, how much damage do you need to put out to be an effective siege weapon?

Siege weapons in 5e generally deal damage in the ballpark of 2d10–8d10. In earlier editions, anything capable of dealing over 30 points of damage in one hit could eventually break even adamantine, so it sounds about right as long as you have enough projectiles and don't care about them breaking before the castle does.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 26, 2019, 05:26:44 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 26, 2019, 04:15:36 am

Quote from: Cruxador on October 26, 2019, 04:00:23 am

Speaking of which, how much damage do you need to put out to be an effective siege weapon?

Siege weapons in 5e generally deal damage in the ballpark of 2d10–8d10. In earlier editions, anything capable of dealing over 30 points of damage in one hit could eventually break even adamantine, so it sounds about right as long as you have enough projectiles and don't care about them breaking before the castle does.

What if I want to knock down the barracks before the soldiers can come out?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 28, 2019, 08:35:48 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on October 26, 2019, 04:15:36 am

Quote from: Cruxador on October 26, 2019, 04:00:23 am

Speaking of which, how much damage do you need to put out to be an effective siege weapon?

Siege weapons in 5e generally deal damage in the ballpark of 2d10–8d10. In earlier editions, anything capable of dealing over 30 points of damage in one hit could eventually break even adamantine, so it sounds about right as long as you have enough projectiles and don't care about them breaking before the castle does.

I think the equivalent in 5e would be 10-20 low-level hirelings with bows. Sure, only half of them hit, but that's still more damage than you'd get for that amount of money in any other way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 28, 2019, 08:53:32 am

Hire hireling with bow. Cast Enlarge Person. Gain Personal Attack Ballisstae.

Reenact scene with the giants and the wall from Game of Thrones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 28, 2019, 09:03:13 am

Okay, but what if I want to do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR48a1kLx0w)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on October 28, 2019, 01:13:39 pm

Quote from: Iduno on October 28, 2019, 08:35:48 am

I think the equivalent in 5e would be 10-20 low-level hirelings with bows. Sure, only half of them hit, but that's still more damage than you'd get for that amount of money in any other way.

A hireling's 1d8+2 damage longbow isn't going to do a lot against a stone wall. Effectively attacking objects requires a lot of damage per hit, not over several hits.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2019, 01:57:40 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 28, 2019, 09:03:13 am

Okay, but what if I want to do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR48a1kLx0w)?

That was amazing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on October 30, 2019, 03:47:46 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 28, 2019, 09:03:13 am

Okay, but what if I want to do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR48a1kLx0w)?

That... was hilariously stupid. Thank you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 30, 2019, 04:04:43 pm

That was the most ridiculously dumb thing I have seen in a very long time.  It honestly made me laugh, and I really needed something to lighten the mood today.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2019, 04:13:49 pm

While the general concept is just completely ridiculous, do remember to pay special attention to when the rest of the army follows their lead and starts forming into shield-balls that are launched over the wall.

Specifically, make note of the shield-balls that completely eat shit directly into the side of the wall. It's a nice touch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on October 30, 2019, 05:25:39 pm

That's what an entire army of Level 20 Fighters with an Int of 16 and a Wis of 6 looks like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 30, 2019, 07:40:47 pm

Quote from: Superdorf on October 30, 2019, 03:47:46 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 28, 2019, 09:03:13 am

Okay, but what if I want to do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR48a1kLx0w)?

That... was hilariously stupid. Thank you.

Bahubali is fun in general.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 30, 2019, 08:12:29 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 28, 2019, 09:03:13 am

Okay, but what if I want to do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR48a1kLx0w)?

Then you'd best be playing Earthdawn. Because most systems forbid you to do interesting things if you aren't a magic-user.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on October 31, 2019, 09:08:00 am

Quote from: Iduno on October 30, 2019, 08:12:29 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on October 28, 2019, 09:03:13 am

Okay, but what if I want to do this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR48a1kLx0w)?

Then you'd best be playing Earthdawn. Because most systems forbid you to do interesting things if you aren't a magic-user.

I've been quite pleased, lately, with Dreamscarred Press's third party additions to Pathfinder, and particularly Art of War, their take on the Tome of Battle. It doesn't lean on using the environment or group maneuvers like that, but I can hardly imagine how one would begin to write features that would encourage that anyway, it's more like a freeform thing that would be based around skill checks or otherwise open ended mechanics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 31, 2019, 09:24:55 am

I've actually been thinking about my semi-shitpost lately. I find myself not really wanting to do d20-ish stuff so Pathfinder is a no-go for me right now. Maybe I'll retract that once I forget my most recent Pathfinder experience.

My first thought would be to do some light Feng Shui hacking. Feng Shui is the game of Hong Kong action movies, if you haven't heard of it. I know Baahubali is Tollywood but a system that uses "run up a stream of bullets and kick the shooter in the face" as an example should be able to support "dumbasses forming a shieldball on a treeapult".

A further thought was "just freeform it" but I find that unsatisfying.

And a third thought involved re-reading "Against the Dark Yogi" by Tab Creations - this video was shared on their site in relation to that game in the distant past so maybe that'd work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 31, 2019, 09:43:31 am

Quote from: Cruxador on October 31, 2019, 09:08:00 am

I've been quite pleased, lately, with Dreamscarred Press's third party additions to Pathfinder, and particularly Art of War, their take on the Tome of Battle. It doesn't lean on using the environment or group maneuvers like that, but I can hardly imagine how one would begin to write features that would encourage that anyway, it's more like a freeform thing that would be based around skill checks or otherwise open ended mechanics.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Spheres of Power (and Might, but we ain't talkin' wizards right now) is so good for making martials less boring.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 31, 2019, 03:00:48 pm

I was thinking about types of government and how the main problem is that at some point power is going to be given to someone who doesn't deserve it.
Then I thought, how about a wizard realized this, and then dedicated his life to learning Wish so that he could wish that only good people receive power?
The wizard could spend his time defining what 'good' even is, along with researching the spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on October 31, 2019, 03:01:44 pm

Presumably the wizard could use the already existing alignments

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on October 31, 2019, 03:06:06 pm

Quote from: scourge728 on October 31, 2019, 03:01:44 pm

Presumably the wizard could use the already existing alignments

Alignment is not a story thing. It only matters with Rakshasas and Pixies, otherwise Alignment is only a short hand for a PC's general morality.
I didn't hate alignments, but your response made me hate them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on October 31, 2019, 03:19:17 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on October 31, 2019, 03:06:06 pm

Alignment is not a story thing. It only matters with Rakshasas and Pixies, otherwise Alignment is only a short hand for a PC's general morality.

Depends on what game you're playing, but I'm assuming 5e because why not.

According to this little snippet (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Rules:Character%20Advancement#h-Alignment%20in%20the%20Multiverse), good and evil are definitely story things and wizard dude would probably be struck down by every good deity ever for trying to remove free will from everyone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 31, 2019, 03:28:44 pm

Alignment is only as much a story thing as the DM allows (or wants) it to be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on October 31, 2019, 04:46:14 pm

Moving into not allowed territory a bit here, please avoid discussions about the merit of the alignment system, there is a thread linked in the OP for that topic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on October 31, 2019, 05:04:21 pm

Right, sorry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 01, 2019, 03:15:46 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on October 31, 2019, 04:46:14 pm

Moving into not allowed territory a bit here, please avoid discussions about the merit of the alignment system, there is a thread linked in the OP for that topic.

Sounds like something a filthy lawful would do!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on November 01, 2019, 05:59:36 am

I appreciate a joke Kagus, but don't push this button please.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 01, 2019, 06:41:57 am

Elfgames are serious business.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on November 01, 2019, 09:55:14 am

It really is an elfgame.  Grognards always identify with dorfs but having a lifestyle that allows you to spend all your free time playing obscure games and perfecting the art of painting tiny figurines is extremely elven.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 01, 2019, 10:51:31 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on November 01, 2019, 09:55:14 am

It really is an elfgame.  Grognards always identify with dorfs but having a lifestyle that allows you to spend all your free time playing obscure games and perfecting the art of painting tiny figurines is extremely elven.

Did Critical Role ever use grognards as a pun? Because if not that is sad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 01, 2019, 08:21:33 pm

Me and a group of buds are starting Lost Mine of Phandelver tomorrow - Barbarian, Cleric, and Warlock.

The Warlock is a new player - who had a character idea for ages (avid fantasy reader) which the Warlock supports. I helped him create his character, explaining a hundred rules along the way.

He wants to build a combat focused spellcaster. Stuff like Dark One's Blessing and the False Life invocation are his substitute for HP. Problem is, I've never made a Pact Blade warlock, and never been a martial caster. If I'm a caster, I'm hiding in the back of the group.

Anyone have experience as a melee warlock? We're doing just the PHB to keep it easy for two new players - so the Hexblade patron is off the table. Any advice on builds to help him out?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 01, 2019, 08:36:48 pm

I played a Triton GOO Blade Pact warlock for a bit. The main thing is you're squishy, but having a barbarian and a cleric should help him out there.

I used Armor of Agathys a lot (temp HP and cold damage when hit in melee is great, especially since it scales up), as well as crowd control spells like Darkness, Hold Person, and Hunger of Hadar (GOO also get Dissonant Whispers) to protect me from being hit. I tried using Hex and it was helpful, but I got hit often and lost concentration too many times to get maximum usage out of it.

I also recommend seriously considering starting or MCing at least one level into Fighter as well. Second Wind, Medium or heavy armor, and Defense will help a lot. (If he ends up not like blade pact warlock but wants something similar, he might like Eldritch Knight or Valor Bard).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 01, 2019, 08:45:22 pm

Yeah, I tried getting him to go Eldritch Knight, but he's set on Warlock. He chose Mountain Dwarf, so he has Medium armor already - I'll recommend he consider those concentration spells wisely.

Darkness might ruin the rest of the party, but yeah - I did a tome GOO warlock and the darkness stuff is really amazing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on November 01, 2019, 08:58:16 pm

The party I'm running for is a tiefling, hill dwarf, kobold, and minotaur (half-orc reskin), so they all have darkvision.  It's a different experience. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 02, 2019, 04:41:10 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on November 01, 2019, 08:58:16 pm

The party I'm running for is a tiefling, hill dwarf, kobold, and minotaur (half-orc reskin), so they all have darkvision.  It's a different experience.

Huh. My group actually runs with darkvision races so much that often the non-darkvision races usually end up with Goggles of Night to make up for it.

Quote from: Persus13 on November 01, 2019, 08:36:48 pm

I played a Triton GOO Blade Pact warlock for a bit. The main thing is you're squishy, but having a barbarian and a cleric should help him out there.

I used Armor of Agathys a lot (temp HP and cold damage when hit in melee is great, especially since it scales up), as well as crowd control spells like Darkness, Hold Person, and Hunger of Hadar (GOO also get Dissonant Whispers) to protect me from being hit. I tried using Hex and it was helpful, but I got hit often and lost concentration too many times to get maximum usage out of it.

I also recommend seriously considering starting or MCing at least one level into Fighter as well. Second Wind, Medium or heavy armor, and Defense will help a lot. (If he ends up not like blade pact warlock but wants something similar, he might like Eldritch Knight or Valor Bard).

The time I played a blade pact warlock before Hexblade was released, I played a half-elf Feylock. It is nice when you get to 6th level and can just teleport away and turn invisible when you feel like you've taken too much damage. I also started with a level of fighter so I could have heavy armor, which is good if you want to fight in melee and don't want to worry about having to escape eventually (though I could if I needed to). I mostly fought in melee with the character and saved spell slots for utility use, like turning people invisible or casting Seeming on them.

Outside the topic, but related to spellcasters who fight in melee, lately someone in my group has been playing a Bladesinger,, and I have to say, it's interesting to see a wizard being played as a melee fighter. He apparently has less HP than my Conjuration wizard, but he gets away with it for the most part from having a high AC, especially when he casts Haste on himself (which is most of the time), though I think he has to use Shield more often than I do, since I don't get hit as often, and blows are more likely to be above what I can block than they are for him. From what I've seen, it seems like the archetype strikes a nice balance of doing what it's intended to do without being overpowered, which is nice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on November 02, 2019, 07:16:02 pm

I wish kobolds were better...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Taricus on November 03, 2019, 12:29:15 am

But they're already great. They're kobolds after all :P

But in seriousness, they're pretty good in 5e, especially as rogues. Nothing like being able to proc sneak attack a hell of a lot more often than other rogues.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 03, 2019, 12:32:46 am

Yeah, I'll say. Having gotten to go around some more classes now, does anyone else think that 5e sneak attack is ridiculously powerful? There are things other than DPS that are important, but I'm not sure I've seen anything that beats a decently stacked sneak attack build.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 03, 2019, 12:43:13 am

Sneak Attack is special because of the advantage - you're ALREADY going to hit, and boom extra damage on top. It's like a double reward.

Static damage upgrades are better, I think. A fighter style and barbarian rage at 16 str can give you a minimum of 8 damage per hit at 2nd level.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on November 03, 2019, 12:49:00 am

Sneak Attack won't outperform "nova" abilities like Divine Smite, Action Surge, that sort of thing (at least, to my knowledge), but it's not resource-dependent. That's pretty special.

Still, other classes get other goodies. Sneak Attack's just one of many.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 03, 2019, 12:00:42 pm

We just had that first session of LMoP - boy was that close.

New player Warlock did well - taking out the chumps for free Temp HP. Rolled several 1s on cantrips and offhand attacks.

Cleric helped out by sniping from the back, but used all spells on himself as he was the only one who took damage from early encounters and traps. Leaving us without heals for the final fights.

Barbarian (me) killed Klarg by myself, but was a single hit from party-ending death as we fought up the stairs toward Klarg's room without a solid escape plan.

Oh boy, Lost Mines of Phandelver is great. We flubbed all our stealth rolls, but made it through on luck, grit, and martial ability.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 03, 2019, 03:43:28 pm

Sneak Attack is a really good ability, but its also one of the better balanced ones out there, and is only good for high HP targets.

If you think its too good, the problem might actually be that you're giving too much leeway to allowing your rogue to hide.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 03, 2019, 06:19:20 pm

I'm pretty sure the designers have said that it's intended for rogues to be able to to get sneak attack every round. They'll probably need to fulfill some condition or another to get it (maybe get an ally in there), but it should take some significant circumstances for them to have no recourse for sneak attack during a fight.

Damage-wise, you have to keep in mind that they can only use sneak attack once per turn, can't get anything more than a bonus action attack without taking away at least 5 levels of sneak attack progression (and probably other damage bonus sources that are really better for someone with Extra Attack), and are limited in damage and combos they can pull off by only being able to use finesse and ranged weapons for sneak attack. Plus the aforementioned fact that the you can only attack one target at a time, and the damage will likely be overkill for most targets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 03, 2019, 06:27:50 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on November 03, 2019, 06:19:20 pm

are limited in damage and combos they can pull off by only being able to use finesse and ranged weapons for sneak attack.

To be fair that just effectively means they don't have two handed weapons. They don't lose any damage over anyone else using 1h weapons since a rapier is 1d8.

Amusing as the imagine of sneak attacking using a maul would be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 03, 2019, 06:46:53 pm

It also limits your options as a barbarian/rogue, since you can only get rage bonus damage from strength attacks, though apparently you can just use rapiers with strength somehow.

This also made me think that it would be possible to add smite damage to sneak attack, since it just requires a melee weapon attack. Not sure what you'll do with the strength score required for the multiclass, though maybe you could use that to wear medium armor, since this edition doesn't give rogues penalties for wearing heavier than light armor. Hell, if you started as paladin, you could even wear heavy armor.

Just imagine, you're fighting someone, then his buddy walks up to you *clink* *clatter* *clink* and stabs you in the ribs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 03, 2019, 07:38:02 pm

Kobold talk - it really showed what WotC thought of the race. In a world where every single race gets a total of +3 to various attributes and some neat abilities, kobolds get +0 and they can cower real good. Oh, and sunlight sensitivity, a thing that pretty much only drow had til that point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 03, 2019, 08:03:44 pm

Grovel Cower and Beg is one of my favorite racial abilities. Its super useful to a cohesive party, and its a testament to the Kobold's ability to use their size as an advantage. Kobold has some of the best racial abilities in 5e but also some of the worst, and every time I've seen someone play one its been an absolute blast to play with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on November 03, 2019, 08:13:42 pm

I just realized Kobolds are the Waluigi of DnD and now I love them even more. (My reasoning is that the general community loves them, wants them to be better/more included, but the company involved really seems to dislike them and refuses to listen to what the community wants for them (kobolds: better, Waluigi: Included in Smash/Getting his own game))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on November 03, 2019, 08:23:01 pm

I don't think WotC dislikes kobolds so much as they understand the actual appeal of them and that no one would be properly served by a kobold player race that was just straight-up good, versus one that could be good if deployed with the right tactics. Kobolds are kind of like Magicarp, but at less extremes on the higher and lower end.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 03, 2019, 08:24:41 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on November 03, 2019, 07:38:02 pm

Kobold talk - it really showed what WotC thought of the race. In a world where every single race gets a total of +3 to various attributes and some neat abilities, kobolds get +0 and they can cower real good. Oh, and sunlight sensitivity, a thing that pretty much only drow had til that point.

oh luxury

Back in the day, kobolds only got half a hit die.  1-4 hp.

Quote from: scourge728 on November 03, 2019, 08:13:42 pm

I just realized Kobolds are the Waluigi of DnD and now I love them even more. (My reasoning is that the general community loves them, wants them to be better/more included, but the company involved really seems to dislike them and refuses to listen to what the community wants for them (kobolds: better, Waluigi: Included in Smash/Getting his own game))

Actually kobolds got a ton of stuff in 3.5 (because, you know, everything did).  They were one of the major races detailed in Races of the Dragon.  Which also intro'd dragonborn who were a lot different back then.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 03, 2019, 10:04:22 pm

I do think its kinda sad that once the new Eberron book comes out, Kobolds will be the only 5e race with negative racial stats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 04, 2019, 03:56:34 am

Mammalian kobolds > Reptilian kobolds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on November 04, 2019, 04:07:58 am

They should be weirdo proto-mammals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 04, 2019, 05:54:13 am

They should be mine goblins running around poisoning iron. Occasionally go on the seas as the "house elf" of a ship. And speak in highly broken German.

If you use kobolds outside of these circumstances you are impure

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 04, 2019, 09:13:10 am

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on November 03, 2019, 06:27:50 pm

Amusing as the imagine of sneak attacking using a maul would be.

I'm remembering when sneak attack was a multiplier on the weapon instead of +d6. You could really rack up the damage that way, especially considering enemies had ~half the hitpoints.


And kobolds are great, because you're too busy with their traps to do anything about them plinking away for a few damage with bows or shivs and then running away. They're great guerrilla fighters, not good at standing fights.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 04, 2019, 09:36:42 am

Quote from: Iduno on November 04, 2019, 09:13:10 am

And kobolds are great, because you're too busy with their traps

I'd have liked an ability related to that but the latest and greatest in 5e kobold PCs aren't particularly good at traps. That's relegated to monster kobolds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on November 04, 2019, 09:54:35 am

We just did a homebrew kobold thats basically a halfling, since the 5e stats are so lame.   I kind of hate kobolds, they have a very certain, uh, appeal, and going by the fluff descriptions wizards is aware and catering to it. 

Which is whatever, do your thing you know, its just weird to be reading the book and it offhandedly mentions they don't have a gag reflex.   I'd like to see kobolds as just little dog people.   Like corgis, shetland sheep dogs, pugs, little anthropomorphic dog people.  They dont talk, they just scurry around digging holes, not for any particular purpose.  Some wizard's experiment gone awry

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on November 04, 2019, 12:04:33 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on November 04, 2019, 09:54:35 am

We just did a homebrew kobold thats basically a halfling, since the 5e stats are so lame.   I kind of hate kobolds, they have a very certain, uh, appeal, and going by the fluff descriptions wizards is aware and catering to it. 

Which is whatever, do your thing you know, its just weird to be reading the book and it offhandedly mentions they don't have a gag reflex.   I'd like to see kobolds as just little dog people.   Like corgis, shetland sheep dogs, pugs, little anthropomorphic dog people.  They dont talk, they just scurry around digging holes, not for any particular purpose.  Some wizard's experiment gone awry

what exactly are you implying here...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 04, 2019, 12:50:23 pm

KOBOLDS DON'T HAVE GAG REFLEXES

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 04, 2019, 01:15:50 pm

The only bad racial ability kobolds have is sunlight sensitivity, and while that is a stickler, it at least can be solved with at least one magic item.

That said sunglasses have existed since at least 12th century china (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1c/29/78/1c2978d48b5d09a6c8fc04371e8f6d9b.jpg), and snow goggles to reduce the light entering the eye have existed since prehistory... so I don't think it's an unassailable obstacle.

Quote from: Persus13 on November 03, 2019, 10:04:22 pm

I do think its kinda sad that once the new Eberron book comes out, Kobolds will be the only 5e race with negative racial stats.

Not true: orcs are also crap with -2int, though they still have a net increase of +1 to their stats overall.
They're still worse than half-orcs though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 04, 2019, 01:46:37 pm

I know about orcs, but that doesn't mean my statement is false. The 5e Eberron book coming out in 2 weeks will have a new version of orcs without the -2 Int penalty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 04, 2019, 01:48:33 pm

Is sunlight sensitivity just about sight? As I understood it it was also about being under the sun in general.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 04, 2019, 01:55:52 pm

Quote from: scriver on November 04, 2019, 01:48:33 pm

Is sunlight sensitivity just about sight? As I understood it it was also about being under the sun in general.

That's generally how I've understood it as well.

There are magic items that mitigate Sunlight Sensitivity in some of the adventures, and generally dim light is not enough to trigger in most games I've seen. Generally sunglasses is not enough in most games I've seen or played in.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 04, 2019, 02:13:32 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on November 04, 2019, 01:46:37 pm

I know about orcs, but that doesn't mean my statement is false. The 5e Eberron book coming out in 2 weeks will have a new version of orcs without the -2 Int penalty.

Ah, I see.

Quote from: scriver on November 04, 2019, 01:48:33 pm

Is sunlight sensitivity just about sight? As I understood it it was also about being under the sun in general.

It is about sight, yeah.

The malus of sunlight sensitivity revolves entirely around sight:

Quote from: drow player race sunlight sensitivity

You have disadvantage on attack rolls and Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of the attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.

Quote from: kobold player race sunlight sensitivity

You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.

Both being almost exactly the same, it's clear that sunlight sensitivity is all about sight; they don't get burned, injured or exhausted by sunlight, or anything like that. It's not a metaphysical weakness, it's just dazzlingly bright for these darkness-dwelling creatures. 

Considering the draconic nature of kobolds, I'd find it hard to believe that they'd get sunburnt, and even if they did that would just require robes to fix.

Note something like a vampire which is harmed by sunlight is "sunlight hypersensitivity".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on November 04, 2019, 04:06:09 pm

What are these Eberron kobold stats? What do they get to counter the lost attribute values?

Quote from: Kagus on November 04, 2019, 03:56:34 am

Mammalian kobolds > Reptilian kobolds

I like armadillo kobolds. Both furry and scaly. Both cute and unsettling. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Eric Blank on November 04, 2019, 04:20:48 pm

I thought of kobold-dillos too. Or kobold-pangolins. Adorably horrifying.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 04, 2019, 04:34:01 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on November 04, 2019, 04:06:09 pm

What are these Eberron kobold stats? What do they get to counter the lost attribute values?

Eberron won't have new kobolds, it has new orcs that are less dumb.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 04, 2019, 04:50:49 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on November 04, 2019, 04:34:01 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on November 04, 2019, 04:06:09 pm

What are these Eberron kobold stats? What do they get to counter the lost attribute values?

Eberron won't have new kobolds, it has new orcs that are less dumb.

Why? I don't know Eberron. Why are orcs there special?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 04, 2019, 05:29:33 pm

Personally I think they're taking advantage of the new setting to revisit unpopular racial mechanics, but most races in Eberron are different in some way or another from the usual depiction. Orcs tend to be less "dumb evil tribal brutes" and more "an ancient race of druids and paladins holding back supernatural threats in the far corners of the world" in Eberron though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on November 04, 2019, 06:24:48 pm

Quote from: Eric Blank on November 04, 2019, 04:20:48 pm

I thought of kobold-dillos too. Or kobold-pangolins. Adorably horrifying.

I'm cool with the existing draconic/saurian kobolds, but I'd like to see a nod toward a more recent understanding of non-avian dinosaurs, particularly the smaller raptors. Kobold-chickenpupperlizards, if you will. Admittedly I'd give them more elaborate head quills to serve the same signaling function as visible ears on a cat, forward-facing eyes with elliptical pupils and opposable thumbs, but they could just as easily be clucking fluffy adorable things or scary hawklike pack hunters depending largely on how puffed up they are. In which case, I suppose, dragons would be enormous feathered serpents with a general demeanor somewhere between a raven and a housecat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on November 04, 2019, 08:55:09 pm

From my understanding, kobolds are reptilian because of their draconic ancestry, and thus don't have a necessity to reflect modern knowledge of dinosaurs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on November 04, 2019, 09:43:49 pm

Quote from: scourge728 on November 04, 2019, 08:55:09 pm

From my understanding, kobolds are reptilian because of their draconic ancestry, and thus don't have a necessity to reflect modern knowledge of dinosaurs.

Oh, sure. There's no necessity for kobolds at all, let alone updating them. I just think that, to the extent that modern paleontology has informed some modern depictions of dragons (Game of Thrones, for example) by giving them pterosaur-ish forelimb wings -- and entirely avoiding the question of the extent, if any, to which medieval discoveries of dinosaur fossils informed the original Western dragon myths -- it'd be a fun variant to take that to its logical conclusion and have more avian kobolds. 

I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone how to run their game. We have more than enough of that. There are just some things that I think would be funny or cool or useful to see in addition to what's already out there, and clucking kobolds happen to be one of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 05, 2019, 12:27:51 am

Kobold Terrorbirds in 5.. 4... 3...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 05, 2019, 06:49:52 am

I'm very hipster about kobolds. I used to be entirely on the cutebold train, but it feels so 2010 these days, and there's way too many people liking this old sock

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 05, 2019, 11:42:09 am

Sooo...

Variant Human Warlock 2/Sorcerer 2... Spell Sniper feat, Eldritch Spear invocation, Distant Spell metamagic...

Is that eldritch blast with a range of 1,200 feet?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 05, 2019, 11:57:36 am

Nope, you need a third level of sorcerer for that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 05, 2019, 11:58:39 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 05, 2019, 11:42:09 am

Sooo...

Variant Human Warlock 2/Sorcerer 2... Spell Sniper feat, Eldritch Spear invocation, Distant Spell metamagic...

Is that eldritch blast with a range of 1,200 feet?

It costs sorcery points, and another Sorcerer level, but yes.
EDIT:AMBUSH'D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 05, 2019, 12:04:25 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on November 05, 2019, 11:57:36 am

Nope, you need a third level of sorcerer for that.

Ah right, of course... Forgot you get sorcpoints a level before you get metamagic.


I mean, it's not the Unearthed Arcana class mod that lets you fling acid fireballs over a mile away, but that's still pretty decent. I mean, you're not going to be seeing a whole lot at that distance, but ey.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 05, 2019, 12:31:32 pm

This seems like as good a thread to ask as any: What is the present equivalent to precognition and postcognition?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 05, 2019, 12:44:11 pm

Cognition?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 05, 2019, 12:49:09 pm

Worm uses corcognition, though that term appears to have been made up by the same.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 05, 2019, 12:51:50 pm

Perception, possibly of the extra-sensory variety. Scrying is also used.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 05, 2019, 01:01:18 pm

It is to *know*.





_{Ahem... Yeah, don't mind me. Just the PS:T reference disclaimer passing through.}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 07, 2019, 08:21:55 pm

Hey, if a tavern has ladies' night, Disguise Self to receive the discounts.
...Now that I'm thinking of that, Alter Self would probably be one of the best spells for trans people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on November 07, 2019, 08:46:25 pm

...Cept it's temporary. I had to recast it a couple times when I used it to disguise my identity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 07, 2019, 08:49:19 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on November 07, 2019, 08:46:25 pm

...Cept it's temporary. I had to recast it a couple times when I used it to disguise my identity.

Just go to the bathroom once every 50 minutes and cast it there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 08, 2019, 05:22:50 am

Depending on the edition, you can usually stick Alter Self on a magic item to make it indefinite, especially if you're only interested in a single particular form.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 08, 2019, 08:43:43 am

Quote from: scourge728 on November 04, 2019, 08:55:09 pm

From my understanding, kobolds are reptilian because of their draconic ancestry, and thus don't have a necessity to reflect modern knowledge of dinosaurs.

If I remember correctly, it's because one of the writers based their description off a single picture from the previous edition, where the (dog-like) kobold was wearing scale mail. Instead of basing the description on the description right next to the picture.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 08, 2019, 08:58:00 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on November 08, 2019, 05:22:50 am

Depending on the edition, you can usually stick Alter Self on a magic item to make it indefinite, especially if you're only interested in a single particular form.

Medallion of Enhancement +3(inches)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 08, 2019, 09:26:38 am

At least that one only has to last for four minutes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 08, 2019, 09:50:24 am

Quote from: scriver on November 08, 2019, 09:26:38 am

At least that one only has to last for four minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XayUCLgxS5c

(Or, how chronomancy got its freak on)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 08, 2019, 09:54:24 am

Pounded In the Butt by my Chronometer's Ding Dong

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 14, 2019, 01:18:59 pm

Suggestion: A room filled with mimics, and one actual chest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 14, 2019, 01:22:11 pm

Suggestion: None of the mimics is mimicking a chest. Instead they mimic all the objects on the way to the chest.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scourge728 on November 14, 2019, 01:23:39 pm

Suggestion: A chest mimicking a mimic

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 14, 2019, 01:43:04 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 14, 2019, 01:18:59 pm

Suggestion: A room filled with mimics, and one actual chest.

Borderlands 2 did it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 14, 2019, 01:44:16 pm

Really dig through the old D&D books.

You peek through the open doorway. At the far end of the room is a chest positively overflowing with gold, gems, and equipment. Against one wall is a bed. In a corner is a cloak on a coat rack. There's a decorative rug in the middle of the room.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Everything but the chest and most of its contents is a mimic. Yes, even the walls, ceiling, floor, and door.

And one of the coins in the chest is that mimic-coin-bug-thing that eats your money.

But seriously don't do mimics. They're shitty creatures that only exist as a take that. "I shoot every chest I see with an arrow from the other side of the room" is definitely a personality quirk but in no universe is that fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 14, 2019, 01:52:04 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 14, 2019, 01:18:59 pm

Suggestion: A room filled with mimics, and one actual chest.

I like the trap that teleports all equipment into another (cold) room, with a cloaker in between, if you're just trying to screw with people. Although Mephisto's suggestion that you just don't do that thing is probably better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 14, 2019, 01:52:53 pm

I forget which edition we were doing, but one of the (very few) times I've actually played D&D was on IRC with a few people from here. Our plucky party assembled outside of a cave, and the game started with us entering into the cave to explore.

Piercers. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercer_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 14, 2019, 02:01:20 pm

Quote from: Kagus on November 14, 2019, 01:52:53 pm

I forget which edition we were doing, but one of the (very few) times I've actually played D&D was on IRC with a few people from here. Our plucky party assembled outside of a cave, and the game started with us entering into the cave to explore.

Piercers. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercer_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons))

I remember something like them having wings, maybe?

And I'm remembering this (http://www.zincland.com/7drl/kobold/), for some reason.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 15, 2019, 07:50:24 am

Quote from: Mephisto on November 14, 2019, 01:44:16 pm

Really dig through the old D&D books.

You peek through the open doorway. At the far end of the room is a chest positively overflowing with gold, gems, and equipment. Against one wall is a bed. In a corner is a cloak on a coat rack. There's a decorative rug in the middle of the room.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Everything but the chest and most of its contents is a mimic. Yes, even the walls, ceiling, floor, and door.

And one of the coins in the chest is that mimic-coin-bug-thing that eats your money.

But seriously don't do mimics. They're shitty creatures that only exist as a take that. "I shoot every chest I see with an arrow from the other side of the room" is definitely a personality quirk but in no universe is that fun.

Don't do mimics too much ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 15, 2019, 03:14:27 pm

Despite D&D usually failing to fire up any of my plot juices, after re-reading some of the demon lords fluff I've started envisioning a campaign in which Baphomet and Yeenoghu spill their forces onto the material plane for a grudge match to end all grudge matches, with the realms of mortals being caught in between the steadily growing tides of clashing demons.

Initial stuff is small scale, an increase in the number of ghouls roaming the countryside, a few gnoll warbands popping up where they shouldn't be, minotaurs and beast cultists clashing with the former, minor demons starting to join the forces as time progresses, minor settlements being raided or outright sacked until eventually each amass an army and assault castles or cities to establish a true foothold in the world and create permanent gates into the Abyss from which the demon hordes can march.

I imagine the players role initially being hunting down some of the smaller bands of roaming monsters, foiling the odd cult or quarantining a ghoul outbreak, with them gradually finding out what's actually going on and having some opportunity to try and stop or slow the creation of mortal monsters and the summoning of demons, or possibly them deciding to throw in with one of the demon lords.

Eventually being tasked with helping evacuate villages in the path of the hordes or sack them depending on allegiance, prepare defences and ultimately try to keep demons from capturing major cities long enough to prepare to strike at the sources of them, or join the vanguard of the hordes in routing the other.

Regardless, I'd rather like a clash between the PCs and Baphomet and/or Yeenoghu, possibly at the same time in a 3 way brawl.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on November 15, 2019, 03:19:14 pm

Quote from: scriver on November 15, 2019, 07:50:24 am

Quote from: Mephisto on November 14, 2019, 01:44:16 pm

Really dig through the old D&D books.

You peek through the open doorway. At the far end of the room is a chest positively overflowing with gold, gems, and equipment. Against one wall is a bed. In a corner is a cloak on a coat rack. There's a decorative rug in the middle of the room.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Everything but the chest and most of its contents is a mimic. Yes, even the walls, ceiling, floor, and door.

And one of the coins in the chest is that mimic-coin-bug-thing that eats your money.

But seriously don't do mimics. They're shitty creatures that only exist as a take that. "I shoot every chest I see with an arrow from the other side of the room" is definitely a personality quirk but in no universe is that fun.

Don't do mimics too much ;)

It's not just about frequency. If it's completely without warning, once is likely too much. On the other hand, you can have a whole mimic dungeon if it's clear enough that this is the mimic dungeon and in most dungeons there won't be mimics.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 15, 2019, 04:21:05 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on November 15, 2019, 03:14:27 pm

Regardless, I'd rather like a clash between the PCs and Baphomet and/or Yeenoghu, possibly at the same time in a 3 way

It sounds interesting, but only works if the players know and care about the demon lords used.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 16, 2019, 06:17:26 pm

It loses some impact if the players don't know about the beef between the two, but they are still demon lords* leading what is basically an apocalypse. Taking them on is generally going to feel awesome with appropriate in game buildup regardless of prior knowledge.

*Weaker ones mind you, which is a benefit if anything for this kind of idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on November 17, 2019, 06:44:07 pm

It occurred to me recently that the 1" cutting guides on the back of wrapping paper would be perfect for playing grid-based games with miniatures. Wouldn't last very long under stress, but would be a good start point for building your own in a hurry and on the cheap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 17, 2019, 06:50:34 pm

Be a real bitch to make it actually lay flat though.

I honestly don't remember my Chessex map being that expensive but I didn't have to order it online and I've owned it for the better part of a decade now so who knows how much it really was.  The real problem was getting the wet-erase overhead projecter markers to draw on it with.  Those cost a bit and they can be hard to even find.  I think I have the smallest size they made, nonetheless.

That and I have a dozen or so Heroclix maps I might be able to press into service now, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on November 18, 2019, 02:59:34 am

I have a set of plastic jigsaw cut grid pieces. They're a brand called Tact-Tiles by Void Star Studios.

Spoiler: Example (click to show/hide)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/360/014/e0643a4d5205e3254590cd67a34e463e_large.JPG?1406722344)

A friend got a set and after playing on them I knew I wanted my own. I got a mate who was going to USA to pick them up for me to save shipping costs. My set is enough to cover a full dining table and have spares for secret maps that I can add as required.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 18, 2019, 09:25:27 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on November 17, 2019, 06:50:34 pm

That and I have a dozen or so Heroclix maps I might be able to press into service now, too.

Hmm. I wonder if Battletech maps would be good (if you have a hex-based system).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 18, 2019, 02:50:45 pm

If someone says they love a food, can you use Suggestion to make them marry it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on November 18, 2019, 03:46:37 pm

I would say that depends on several factors - the food in question, how reasonable you can make the suggestion sound, and your game universe.

Cilantro? Hard no.

This unnamed other is a cannibal or a race that eats other meaty sentients? Sure, I'll go with it.

You're playing in a RuneQuest or Octonauts analog and the other party is an aldryami or a planimal? Weird flex but okay.

---

Reminds me of the d20-era story regarding a low-level orc cleric who healed an entire village of a plague with a few casts of "purify food and drink" because the character's race in that universe was cannibalistic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 18, 2019, 04:03:27 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on November 18, 2019, 02:50:45 pm

If someone says they love a food, can you use Suggestion to make them marry it?

I don't see why you can't make that joke with everything, not just food.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 18, 2019, 04:20:45 pm

There's "love" and there's "in love". Norwegian, for its many faults, does at least have different words for the concepts

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on November 20, 2019, 10:37:57 am

I threw a senile and polite Lich at four level 3 players and they survived. Also threw a Night and two Green Hags at them, with similar results.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on November 24, 2019, 01:21:38 pm

So I'm planning out a world with some rather extensive homebrew-- sort of a post-magical-apocalypse steampunk thing, with floating islands and lots of weird arcane abominations roaming the mage-blasted wastelands. Trolls will be figuring heavily in all this, and with that in mind I'd like to set up a half-troll player race. A quick Google search turned up this piece of 3rd-party material, (https://www.5esrd.com/races/3rd-party-publisher-races/kobold-press-races/races-3rd-party-publisher-races-kobold-press-races-trollkin/) and I've been rewriting bits and pieces of it to better fit the fluff I've got in mind.

Spoiler: Trollkin (click to show/hide)

Quote

Trollkin

The Wilderwaste is a harsh land, and those who enter it seldom come out the same. Adventurers who linger too long in the most powerful magicks return... changed. Thick, knobbly hide. Claws four inches long. Eyes like furnaces, glowing windows into the soul. Such is the nature of trollkin.

Skin Deep

---

The hide of the trollkin is a thick one, dark and knobbly. While many trollkin share a rough and unkempt appearance, their inhuman lineage can show itself in a wide variety of forms. Some trollkin could even be considered beautiful by human standards, save for the subtle markers of their monstrosity: stone–gray skin, glowing eyes, talon-tipped fingers.

Sealed Lips

---

The hide of the trollkin grows swift and rampant, forming a most disturbing seal where the mouth should be. Trollkin speak rarely and eat swift, for each time they open their mouths they must cut free their own lips with a sharp, toothy tongue.

A Place in the World

---

While the majority of trollkin live in remote communities, some thrive in civilization. But even within cities, trollkin tend to stick together in their own neighborhoods that eventually begin to resemble urban tribes. Most urban trollkin find work that exploits their nature. Mercenary work is the most common, but they sometimes join city guard forces. Thieves’ guilds and other disreputable elements love to employ trollkin as arm-breakers and debt-collectors. Smiths and artisans sometimes take on a trollkin partner or apprentice to add an exotic or savage flair to their offerings.

Trollkin Names

---

Trollkin generally keep the same names they bore before their changing, and bestow similar names upon their children.

Trollkin Traits

---

Your trollkin character has certain characteristics in common with all other trollkin.

Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 2.

Age. Trollkin reach maturity by the age of 15, and live 50 to 60 years.

Size. There is much variety in size and shape among the trollkin, depending on the nature of the race that birthed them. Your size is Medium.

Alignment. Trollkin are as varied in alignment as their parent races, tending towards no particular view on life.

Speed. Trollkin have a base speed of 30 feet.

Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Natural Weapons. You have long fangs locked behind your sealed lips, and long claws where your fingernails should be. You can use your claws or fangs to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with them, claws deal 1d4 + Strength modifier slashing damage, and fangs deal 1d4 + Strength modifier piercing damage.

Inhuman Vigor. The hide of the trollkin is swift-healing, and regenerative magic runs through your veins. As a bonus action, you can expend one hit die to regain hit points as if you finished a short rest. The number of hit dice you can expend increases by one when you reach 6th level (2 hit dice), 12th level (3 hit dice), and 18th level (4 hit dice). You must complete a long rest before using this ability again. If you take radiant or necrotic damage, you lose access to this ability until you finish a short or long rest.

Fearsome Visage. Your bright eyes and wicked claws lend you a rather fearsome appearance. You have proficiency in the Intimidation skill.

Sealed Lips. Whenever you regain hit points, your lips seal shut, preventing you from opening your mouth until you free them. You expend no action or in so doing.

Languages: You can use Trollsign and speak, read and write Common. Trollsign is a silent system of hand and facial gestures, used when a troll does not wish to cut its own lips open in order to communicate.

Subrace. Trollkin bear different traits depending on the type of creatures in their lineage. The two most common types of trollkin are wildlings and stonehides. Choose one of these subraces.

Wildling Trollkin

---

More attuned to their chaotic surroundings than most, the wildling trolls are skilled in manipulating the broken Weave. Wildlings tend to have slighter builds and smoother skin than their cousins, with long colorful gashes where the magic has touched them.

Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score increases by 1.

Wild Boon. Your innate connection to the Wilderwaste allows you to twist luck your way in a manner not common among other peoples. Before making an ability check or saving throw, you can tap into the broken Weave to gain advantage on the roll. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

Stonehide Trollkin

---

The constant blastings of the Wilderwaste leave stonehide trolls with powerful adaptations, born of necessity. Stonehides have larger frames and more muscle than other trollkin. Their skin is dark and uniform in color, with a rough, stonelike texture.

Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1.

Thick hide. Your skin is knobby, thick, and tough, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class.

Strange refluff aside: does this thing balance OK with existing races? If not, what would I need to change to bring it in line?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 26, 2019, 04:16:18 am

So, presumably since Polymorph replaces all the target's attributes with those of the chosen form, including mental, if you polymorph someone into a beast and then cast Awaken on them, they won't keep the 10 Int after changing back...

But a druid's Wild Shape lets them keep mental attributes, right? So if your druid has a bad case of the dumb, they can shift and then you Awaken them for 10 Int and a bonus language (possibly)? Plus 30 days of being charmed, but that's just the fine print... No need to worry about that.


If a druid has Polearm Master and casts Shillelagh on a quarterstaff, that would presumably just be d8/d4 instead of d8/d8, right? Since PM's bonus attack technically isn't "part of the weapon", it's just "This attack's damage die is d4".


Shame about there being so few touch spells in the PHB... Plenty of warlock familiar shenanigans that could've been had, what with the at-will invisibility and all. I mean, you can still cast Darkness on a pebble and give it to your imp to fly around with, but c'mon... Shenanigans.

Sure, you could take Magic Initiate (or just level in sorc, I guess) for Light and Shocking Grasp, but that hardly counts as proper shenanigans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 26, 2019, 08:41:03 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 26, 2019, 04:16:18 am

So, presumably since Polymorph replaces all the target's attributes with those of the chosen form, including mental, if you polymorph someone into a beast and then cast Awaken on them, they won't keep the 10 Int after changing back...

But a druid's Wild Shape lets them keep mental attributes, right? So if your druid has a bad case of the dumb, they can shift and then you Awaken them for 10 Int and a bonus language (possibly)? Plus 30 days of being charmed, but that's just the fine print... No need to worry about that.


If a druid has Polearm Master and casts Shillelagh on a quarterstaff, that would presumably just be d8/d4 instead of d8/d8, right? Since PM's bonus attack technically isn't "part of the weapon", it's just "This attack's damage die is d4".


Shame about there being so few touch spells in the PHB... Plenty of warlock familiar shenanigans that could've been had, what with the at-will invisibility and all. I mean, you can still cast Darkness on a pebble and give it to your imp to fly around with, but c'mon... Shenanigans.

Sure, you could take Magic Initiate (or just level in sorc, I guess) for Light and Shocking Grasp, but that hardly counts as proper shenanigans.

That type of stuff is fun, but harder to balance. I assume that's why the fix is to bring everyone down to a boring level instead of giving fighters something interesting they can do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 26, 2019, 09:38:35 am

Quote from: Superdorf on November 24, 2019, 01:21:38 pm

So I'm planning out a world with some rather extensive homebrew-- sort of a post-magical-apocalypse steampunk thing, with floating islands and lots of weird arcane abominations roaming the mage-blasted wastelands. Trolls will be figuring heavily in all this, and with that in mind I'd like to set up a half-troll player race. A quick Google search turned up this piece of 3rd-party material, (https://www.5esrd.com/races/3rd-party-publisher-races/kobold-press-races/races-3rd-party-publisher-races-kobold-press-races-trollkin/) and I've been rewriting bits and pieces of it to better fit the fluff I've got in mind.

Spoiler: Trollkin (click to show/hide)

Quote

Trollkin

The Wilderwaste is a harsh land, and those who enter it seldom come out the same. Adventurers who linger too long in the most powerful magicks return... changed. Thick, knobbly hide. Claws four inches long. Eyes like furnaces, glowing windows into the soul. Such is the nature of trollkin.

Skin Deep

---

The hide of the trollkin is a thick one, dark and knobbly. While many trollkin share a rough and unkempt appearance, their inhuman lineage can show itself in a wide variety of forms. Some trollkin could even be considered beautiful by human standards, save for the subtle markers of their monstrosity: stone–gray skin, glowing eyes, talon-tipped fingers.

Sealed Lips

---

The hide of the trollkin grows swift and rampant, forming a most disturbing seal where the mouth should be. Trollkin speak rarely and eat swift, for each time they open their mouths they must cut free their own lips with a sharp, toothy tongue.

A Place in the World

---

While the majority of trollkin live in remote communities, some thrive in civilization. But even within cities, trollkin tend to stick together in their own neighborhoods that eventually begin to resemble urban tribes. Most urban trollkin find work that exploits their nature. Mercenary work is the most common, but they sometimes join city guard forces. Thieves’ guilds and other disreputable elements love to employ trollkin as arm-breakers and debt-collectors. Smiths and artisans sometimes take on a trollkin partner or apprentice to add an exotic or savage flair to their offerings.

Trollkin Names

---

Trollkin generally keep the same names they bore before their changing, and bestow similar names upon their children.

Trollkin Traits

---

Your trollkin character has certain characteristics in common with all other trollkin.

Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 2.

Age. Trollkin reach maturity by the age of 15, and live 50 to 60 years.

Size. There is much variety in size and shape among the trollkin, depending on the nature of the race that birthed them. Your size is Medium.

Alignment. Trollkin are as varied in alignment as their parent races, tending towards no particular view on life.

Speed. Trollkin have a base speed of 30 feet.

Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Natural Weapons. You have long fangs locked behind your sealed lips, and long claws where your fingernails should be. You can use your claws or fangs to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with them, claws deal 1d4 + Strength modifier slashing damage, and fangs deal 1d4 + Strength modifier piercing damage.

Inhuman Vigor. The hide of the trollkin is swift-healing, and regenerative magic runs through your veins. As a bonus action, you can expend one hit die to regain hit points as if you finished a short rest. The number of hit dice you can expend increases by one when you reach 6th level (2 hit dice), 12th level (3 hit dice), and 18th level (4 hit dice). You must complete a long rest before using this ability again. If you take radiant or necrotic damage, you lose access to this ability until you finish a short or long rest.

Fearsome Visage. Your bright eyes and wicked claws lend you a rather fearsome appearance. You have proficiency in the Intimidation skill.

Sealed Lips. Whenever you regain hit points, your lips seal shut, preventing you from opening your mouth until you free them. You expend no action or in so doing.

Languages: You can use Trollsign and speak, read and write Common. Trollsign is a silent system of hand and facial gestures, used when a troll does not wish to cut its own lips open in order to communicate.

Subrace. Trollkin bear different traits depending on the type of creatures in their lineage. The two most common types of trollkin are wildlings and stonehides. Choose one of these subraces.

Wildling Trollkin

---

More attuned to their chaotic surroundings than most, the wildling trolls are skilled in manipulating the broken Weave. Wildlings tend to have slighter builds and smoother skin than their cousins, with long colorful gashes where the magic has touched them.

Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score increases by 1.

Wild Boon. Your innate connection to the Wilderwaste allows you to twist luck your way in a manner not common among other peoples. Before making an ability check or saving throw, you can tap into the broken Weave to gain advantage on the roll. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

Stonehide Trollkin

---

The constant blastings of the Wilderwaste leave stonehide trolls with powerful adaptations, born of necessity. Stonehides have larger frames and more muscle than other trollkin. Their skin is dark and uniform in color, with a rough, stonelike texture.

Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1.

Thick hide. Your skin is knobby, thick, and tough, granting you a +1 bonus to Armor Class.

Strange refluff aside: does this thing balance OK with existing races? If not, what would I need to change to bring it in line?

The lips thing is very odd, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
I think this doesn't raise any major flags for balance. The Hit Die heal is nice. I'd note these things, though.
- The Wildling subrace sounds like it should have a wisdom boon rather than charisma. Which would suggest druids and clerics, most likely - which I think makes sense with the whole healing part of trolls. It'd make monks more likely as well, which would make the unarmed attacks useless.
- One advantage per long rest is a very weak ability. To keep it, I'd bump it up to a short rest.
-Thick Hide is fine, but most racial natural armor is portrayed as an AC plus dex instead. Basically free armor - Tortle have 18AC, and Draconic Sorcerers get like 12+dex.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on November 26, 2019, 09:42:24 am

Paladin: Hey, orcs, I'm here to make you good.
If redeemer paladin: *thinking of redeeming them*
If avenger paladin: *thinking of how he said the only good orc is a dead orc*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on November 26, 2019, 02:12:14 pm

If paladin of the Ancients: *thinking of sharing weed with the orcs*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on November 26, 2019, 03:08:01 pm

Quote from: Kagus on November 26, 2019, 04:16:18 am

But a druid's Wild Shape lets them keep mental attributes, right? So if your druid has a bad case of the dumb, they can shift and then you Awaken them for 10 Int and a bonus language (possibly)? Plus 30 days of being charmed, but that's just the fine print... No need to worry about that.

I don't think so, no. Assuming this is about 5e:

Quote

Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the beast, but you retain your Alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

You keep your int when you're wildshaped.

Awaken only works if the target has an int of 3 or less (or no int score). If your character's int is that low, they're not even sentient; I would argue they're no more a playable character than the party mule carrying the loot.

Quote from: Kagus on November 26, 2019, 04:16:18 am

If a druid has Polearm Master and casts Shillelagh on a quarterstaff, that would presumably just be d8/d4 instead of d8/d8, right? Since PM's bonus attack technically isn't "part of the weapon", it's just "This attack's damage die is d4".

Afaik, yeah, it'd be 1d8/1d4.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 26, 2019, 04:33:12 pm

Interestingly Awaken doesn't even work on all beasts in 5e. Apes have Int 6 and are therefore not valid targets.

Neither are Baboons, Giant Apes, Giant Elk, Giant Octopus, Giant Vultures, Giant Weasels, Deinonychus or Velociraptors.

For reference Ogres are dumber than several creatures on that list and Orcs are tied with some of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on November 26, 2019, 05:15:23 pm

iirc while wildshape doesn't change your int, wis, and cha, polymorph does change your mental stats. But not your alignment and personality. So if your character is polymorphed into a chicken, you'll have to roleplay a non-sapient version of your character, with the same attitude and presumably memories as before, but unable to think abstractly or understand languages.

...If you were polymorphed then awakened, I'd rule that you only have the stats of an awakened beast until you get un-polymorphed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on November 26, 2019, 07:25:27 pm

Quote from: delphonso on November 26, 2019, 09:38:35 am

The lips thing is very odd, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
I think this doesn't raise any major flags for balance. The Hit Die heal is nice. I'd note these things, though.
- The Wildling subrace sounds like it should have a wisdom boon rather than charisma. Which would suggest druids and clerics, most likely - which I think makes sense with the whole healing part of trolls. It'd make monks more likely as well, which would make the unarmed attacks useless.
- One advantage per long rest is a very weak ability. To keep it, I'd bump it up to a short rest.
-Thick Hide is fine, but most racial natural armor is portrayed as an AC plus dex instead. Basically free armor - Tortle have 18AC, and Draconic Sorcerers get like 12+dex.

...The lips thing is pretty bizarre, yeah. I was trying to lend the race an alien sort of feel-- inhuman and strange-- it may not have worked quite so well as I hoped.  ::)

- I'm looking to build the wildling subrace with wild-magic sorcerers in mind; hence the Charisma boost rather than Wisdom... I could perhaps retool the subrace ability tho. I can certainly bump it up to a short-rest recharge!

- That's a good point about the natural armor. I'm thinking... what, 16 AC? Does that sound about right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 26, 2019, 07:48:32 pm

Quote from: Superdorf on November 26, 2019, 07:25:27 pm

...The lips thing is pretty bizarre, yeah. I was trying to lend the race an alien sort of feel-- inhuman and strange-- it may not have worked quite so well as I hoped.  ::)

- I'm looking to build the wildling subrace with wild-magic sorcerers in mind; hence the Charisma boost rather than Wisdom... I could perhaps retool the subrace ability tho. I can certainly bump it up to a short-rest recharge!

- That's a good point about the natural armor. I'm thinking... what, 16 AC? Does that sound about right?

16 sounds great. Or 14+dex would be really good.

I'd link their description closer to magic then, rather than the wilderness. Another power to consider is Lucky from halflings. Maybe a free reroll or rerolling ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 29, 2019, 02:03:46 pm

Has anyone played Earthdawn? It's not a perfect system, but none of them are. It has a lot of interesting systems (many of which D&D created bad adaptations of for third edition, but standardizing the every other stat point above 10 gaining you a +1 is a good adaptation). It's also one of the ideas the Fallout devs were looking at before eventually creating Fallout, and you can see some of the ideas from Earthdawn if you know what to look for.

It's somewhere in between a cookie-cutter class system like AD&D (in that you have classes which determine which abilities you can choose from) and a freeform point-buy system like Shadowrun or Gurps (you spend xp directly to upgrade skills, talents, stats, or magic weapons). Yes, you can level up magic weapons, if you threadweaving (using magic items/magic talent) is higher than the level of the weapon currently. You usually get extra damage or to-hit early from upgrading weapons, with neat powers coming online later. Every 2 weapon upgrades requires research into the history of the weapon, and possibly a small sidequest. You can choose to increase your circle (level) or not when you have a certain number of skills at the next level, which gets you more choices of abilities and some extra HP. You can also just choose a few skills you like and keep increasing them without ever increasing your level. The game doesn't care.

The dice are...interesting. There is a table that tells you which dice you roll (your skill or talent level plus a number based on the relevant stat), but you mostly roll the same dice each time you do that action (Skill 3 and stat bonus of 2 is always a total of 5, and that's always a d8. That sounds more complicated than it is. The reasons for this are giving you the equivalent of +1 when you increase things without moving you off the RNG (remember in 3rd edition D&D when you'd have d20+30 or whatever? Or now when the d20 matters more than your skill?) and to make sure anyone can succeed or fail at any task. You gain the equivalent of +1 on average to your roll by moving up from a d6 to a d8 to a d10, etc. How can you succeed in getting a 10 on a d6? When you roll the maximum on a die, you get an extra die of that type, even if that die was already a bonus die. It's possible to keep rolling maximum on a die forever, but the odds are not great. So your average roll on a d6 isn't 3.5, it's ~4, so the table puts the d6 in the stat bonus + skill = 4 slot. Lower-end characters use smaller dice, so they've got the best chance of getting extra rolls. If you really need to succeed, you've got a certain number of dice per day you can add to rolls. You just say you're using one before the roll, and add an extra (I think) d6. You only critically fail if all of your dice are 1s, so adding an extra die is a good way to avoid that early. You critically succeed by beating the target number/DC by (again, I think) 5. A critical success on an attack gets extra damage, spells give extra duration or buffs/debuffs depending on the spell, etc.

Also, because it's a FASA game there's a mountain of maps, lore, history, plot hooks, political factions, and explanation in every book. At one point, there were some characters from Earthdawn re-used in Shadowrun, but that ended back in first edition (ED is now in 4th edition). It was designed as a D&D-like game where everything is explained. Why are there dungeons? Magic is cyclical (like in Arcanum), increasing then decreasing like a sine wave. When the level of magic in the world gets strong enough, powerful spirits called Horrors are able to enter our world and prey on life here. People knew about this in advance (which is also explained in-game), and built various forms of shelters to protect them (domed cities, underground cave structures, entire forests of thorns, underwater villages, etc. Remember when I mentioned Fallout?). Some of them were unsuccessful and now contain monsters. Why are there monsters? Creatures who were attacked by the Horrors were corrupted. Why are there classes? That's how you were trained to make use of your magic (even fighters are powered by magic, and have interesting abilities). Why is it called Earthdawn? That's the name of the airship the dwarves sent out to start letting the shelters know it was safe to leave. You adventure to gain more renown, because that's how you increase your abilities. And your characters know that. Now that the magic level has fallen enough, the strongest Horrors are forced back to their world, and the shelters are opening.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on November 29, 2019, 07:18:29 pm

I've never played or properly read through Earthdawn, but every time I hear about it, it seems quite excellent. Or as the kids say, based and red pilled. Your description only furthers that impression. Kind of makes me wonder why it never took off to a greater degree.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 02, 2019, 08:42:53 am

Quote from: Cruxador on November 29, 2019, 07:18:29 pm

I've never played or properly read through Earthdawn, but every time I hear about it, it seems quite excellent. Or as the kids say, based and red pilled. Your description only furthers that impression. Kind of makes me wonder why it never took off to a greater degree.

I think there were a lot of big games coming out at the same time. White Wolf was big, having released werewolf the prior year and mage the same year (Street Fighter and Wraith the next year kinda don't count). D&D was in decline at the end of TSR, so being D&D but different wasn't a huge selling point. That's probably why there was a halfassed attempt to tie it in with Shadowrun.

Edit: I've also read complaints that the step chart is too complicated, and you need to look up what dice to roll every time (you write the new number on your character sheet to prevent looking it up, sometime like 7/d12 or 8/2d6). You take your stat bonus (which might change once during your career), and add it to your skill. See if you can spot the pattern for when you increase a step by one. A starting character's primary skills would be ~step 7-8, with a few lower. Steps in the 20 range are end-game levels, although some items add to it. With dice rollers being a thing that has existed since ICQ, I'm surprised nobody else has tried anything like it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VvMmrLnJ/Untitled.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 02, 2019, 10:53:26 am

Quote from: Cruxador on November 29, 2019, 07:18:29 pm

Kind of makes me wonder why it never took off to a greater degree.

I suspect it's the same reason that pretty much none of the other crunchy systems made it big. Huge books (3XX pages isn't too bad but the most recent two editions had 6XX and 10XX respectively if you combine GM and player books), chart references to determine how many/which dice to roll, generally bad-ish mechanics overall.

I've heard the setting is pretty great and the snippets I've read reinforce that but the whole bespoke magic item thing and built-in grimdark setting assumptions probably weren't doing it any favors either. D&D sort of had a setting (or multiple, but generally one per edition was "the" setting) but the core books were pure generic Tolkien-ish fantasy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 02, 2019, 11:04:09 am

Quote from: Mephisto on December 02, 2019, 10:53:26 am

Quote from: Cruxador on November 29, 2019, 07:18:29 pm

Kind of makes me wonder why it never took off to a greater degree.

I suspect it's the same reason that pretty much none of the other crunchy systems made it big. Huge books (3XX pages isn't too bad but the most recent two editions had 6XX and 10XX respectively if you combine GM and player books), chart references to determine how many/which dice to roll, generally bad-ish mechanics overall.

Yeah, the change to a novel-sized book for the GM and player books made the page count higher. I think it's meant to be played with a pdf, where the size means 2 pages fit on the screen at a readable resolution at a time. It's an unusual decision, but I prefer pdf, so...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 02, 2019, 11:56:53 am

Unrelated to Earthdawn but completely within the realm of potentially bad mechanics...

If you've got an account on the -Geek network, go cast your ballot (https://rpggeek.com/thread/2312036/2019-24-hour-rpg-contest-voting-open/page/1). Don't ask if I have an entry or which one is mine. Also don't make an account just to vote. I think that's completely allowed if you really want but I hate being asked to create a one-off account for things and I won't ask people to do things I don't like to do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2019, 07:10:25 am

So, I'm a little bit enamored with the concept of a war priest with a bow. If we're allowing feats, a variant human with 16 dex would be able to, at level 2, shoot something 600 feet away for 1d8+13 damage with +10 tohit.

I mean, sure, it's once per short rest... But that's still kinda funky fresh, I'd say.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 07, 2019, 07:35:17 am

I mean, with Great Weapon Fighting a barbarian could - at second level - deal 1d12+15 at +0 but with advantage and swing again if they drop the enemy. And that's every round as long as rage lasts (then in falls to a measly 1d12+13, still at advantage)

I just reached level 4 in the first game where we've used feats (just never was asked or offered in other games in 5e). In the first combat, my Barbarian took down 5 hobgoblins before they managed to deal any damage to us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2019, 07:52:14 am

Sure, but that's somehow not quite the same as just reaching out and touching someone 600' away hiding behind three other guys and a chest-high wall...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 07, 2019, 08:01:30 am

Very true. That's like hitting a gumball two football fields away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2019, 08:21:59 am

Quote from: delphonso on December 07, 2019, 08:01:30 am

Very true. That's like hitting a gumball two football fields away.

With a washing machine!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 07, 2019, 08:29:18 am

Call it the wizard killer. Mage murderer. Sage slayer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 07, 2019, 10:23:32 am

Yeah, the great distances afforded by sniping allow you to trivialize many enemies in 5e, provided your DM is letting you snipe from across a great distance and they have no recourse (such as go inside) other than to run at you. Pretty rare in most games, but when it does happen it's a strong point in favor of bows.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on December 07, 2019, 02:48:59 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 07, 2019, 07:10:25 am

So, I'm a little bit enamored with the concept of a war priest with a bow. If we're allowing feats, a variant human with 16 dex would be able to, at level 2, shoot something 600 feet away for 1d8+13 damage with +10 tohit.

I mean, sure, it's once per short rest... But that's still kinda funky fresh, I'd say.

If you're playing in Eberron, that's a pretty good concept for a cleric of the Silver Flame, since they're pretty big into bows.

Quote from: Cruxador on December 07, 2019, 10:23:32 am

Yeah, the great distances afforded by sniping allow you to trivialize many enemies in 5e, provided your DM is letting you snipe from across a great distance and they have no recourse (such as go inside) other than to run at you. Pretty rare in most games, but when it does happen it's a strong point in favor of bows.

Yeah, I sometimes see people talking about how significant attack ranges like this are overpowered, and it makes me think they don't really play or never go into dungeons, because, in my experience, most fights happen in rooms that are within the normal range of a shortbow, or at the very least the normal range of a longbow. And even if you are outside, you can probably at least find some cover or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 07, 2019, 03:11:46 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 07, 2019, 08:29:18 am

Call it the wizard killer. Mage murderer. Sage slayer.

Call it Greg

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 07, 2019, 03:18:19 pm

Silver Flame War Cleric with a bow is something I've wanted to do for awhile now too.

It can be pretty fun surprising cocky players with bows who think that they can't get hit by anything, especially if they have a Broom of Flying. My favorite story of that is a villain being attacked by a party with the party's archer 500 feet away, and the villain using dimension door to jump right next to the archer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 03:57:37 pm

As often happens when I look through the D&D PHB and see the trade goods and wagons and so forth I've found myself wanting to play a character who's defined by being a non-combatant. This time it's a merchant I have in my head. Great persuader, insightful, knowledgeable and so on, but damn near useless if a fight breaks out.

I have this mental image of a well off trader travelling with a caravan of a few wagons of goods, a bunch of hirelings and so forth having a bunch of wild eyed adventurers land in his lap during a trip and getting dragged along for the ride with him trying to negotiate his way out of being eaten by dragons or ogres while the actual adventurers are stealing stuff or setting up an ambush and them scrambling away like his arse is on fire when it comes to blows.

Plus I'd like to deal with the baggage train management aspect of things at least once. Enough of this four people sleeping in a shabby tent and trekking on foot through vague wilderness while mostly ignoring encumbrance. I want to bring some damn luggage for once. Y'know I've never met anyone else who bothers to bring manacles and chains on any adventures, or climbing gear, or wants to bring a wagon and horses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on December 07, 2019, 04:02:53 pm

Sounds like good fun! My only suggestion would be that you clear it with your fellow players first, lest they resent you for being a deadweight in combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2019, 04:03:24 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on December 07, 2019, 02:48:59 pm

And even if you are outside, you can probably at least find some cover or something.

That's why the Sharpshooter feat is kinda silly... Not only does it let you utilize the full range of the weapon without disadvantage, it also lets you ignore half and 3/4 cover. So... Basically anything that isn't full cover, and full cover prevents the enemy from seeing or interacting with you as well.

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 03:57:37 pm

Y'know I've never met anyone else who bothers to bring manacles and chains on any adventures, or climbing gear, or wants to bring a wagon and horses.

One of the very few and very short-lived campaigns I've actually played via IRC, someone played a character that basically amounted to "The dwarf with the wagon"... Which, in their mind, earned them more than a double share of the loot. Despite never having stepped foot inside the dungeon or contributed to the interactions in any way.

This person was not very popular with the other players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 07, 2019, 04:12:08 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 03:57:37 pm

Y'know I've never met anyone else who  -- wants to bring a wagon and horses.

Well, in a game I played in there was a character who insisted on bringing a a cart full of bags of beans instead of standard trail rations, as well as enough gunpowder and lead ball to outfit an army. The others brought food and ammo for ten days, not ten weeks. We returned to town two days later.

And in another, the GM even started the one-shot with "you left your mules outside and stepped into the dungeon", even though none of the character sheets mentioned pack animals. To him, it was unthinkable for anyone to go out adventuring without something to carry the loot, so he didn't even ask if we wanted any.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 07, 2019, 04:20:54 pm

Carts and draft animals become rather pointless as most DMs really don't bother tracking and auditing encumbrance, much less the physical bulk of most items.

Then also the handy haversack, portable hole, or bag o' holding are also very popular loot that don't really make the party that much stronger.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 04:25:15 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on December 07, 2019, 04:12:08 pm

Well, in a game I played in there was a character who insisted on bringing a a cart full of bags of beans instead of standard trail rations, as well as enough gunpowder and lead ball to outfit an army. The others brought food and ammo for ten days, not ten weeks. We returned to town two days later.

And in another, the GM even started the one-shot with "you left your mules outside and stepped into the dungeon", even though none of the character sheets mentioned pack animals. To him, it was unthinkable for anyone to go out adventuring without something to carry the loot, so he didn't even ask if we wanted any.

Why beans of all things?  ???



I'm going through and working out costs/weights of a weeks supplies for a new character atm with a wagon and 2 draft horses pus various tools like chains, pitons, tent, papers, oil and so on. 10 days of feed for 2 horses weighs 200 pounds, but they can pull over 2000 pounds together and that allows for an insane amount of equipment, most of which can be fit into one chest and a few sacks. Unless I want to buy half a tonne in barrels of lamp oil I doubt I can come near the capacity of a wagon without having far more rope and chains than even my characters can reasonably use.

EDIT: Part of it also comes down to travel times being really short in the d&d games I've been in. On foot travel between the capitals of two separate races being like a week each way at most kind of short. As someone who does like the details of travelling/eating to be important for the ability to have those pinch moments when something went wrong and you wind up low on food or racing time to get back somewhere.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 07, 2019, 04:30:07 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 04:25:15 pm

Unless I want to buy half a tonne in barrels of lamp oil I doubt I can come near the capacity of a wagon without having far more rope and chains than even my characters can reasonably use.

Bombs?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 04:37:07 pm

Sadly lamp oil doesn't explode, but it could be used to light 2880 5 foot squares on fire for two rounds. Or keep a lantern lit for 480 6 hour nights. If you can't see in the dark you actually need a lot of oil to keep lanterns going.

EDIT: Scratch that, brain done thunked wrong.

Each pint is 6 hours in a lantern, it's enough to keep a camp lit with 6 hooded lanterns for 480 nights for 6 hours at a time, 30 foot radius of bright light around each lantern, plus 30 more feet of dim light. Throw in a pair of bullseye lanterns to use if a disturbance happens and light's more or less done and dusted as a problem at night.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 07, 2019, 04:49:14 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 04:25:15 pm

Why beans of all things?  ???

Dried beans are extremely dense in nutrition. A bag of beans feeds you longer than a bag of hardtack and keeps malnutrition away better.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 05:03:45 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on December 07, 2019, 04:49:14 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 04:25:15 pm

Why beans of all things?  ???

Dried beans are extremely dense in nutrition. A bag of beans feeds you longer than a bag of hardtack and keeps malnutrition away better.

Did they do that to save money or purely because it seemed more sensible to them? It seems like an odd thing to do compared to just checking off one ration a day, which is how it's usually handled. The actual contents of the long lasting food pretty much never matters as long as it's there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 07, 2019, 05:46:07 pm

Sounds like a bit of roleplay fluff.  In my group's first 5e campaign, we had to travel up north of the Sword Coast into the icy wastes, so we actually bothered to buy a wagon and provisions and such.   We ended up rigging the wagon with a coal stove, and buying coal, because as best we could tell we would be taking unavoidable stacks of exhaustion from the cold temperatures and dying in a few days.  I still don't know what we were supposed to do (particularly at level, like, 3) so we thought up the stove system.

But instead of just buying "20 days rations" and leaving it at that, I decided my character (a dwarf) had a little rocknut garden in his hovel under the bar.  This quickly became a running joke where everybody treated the rocknuts as well... rocks, except this loopy dwarf fighter who probably got his nutrition from ale or something.

Until we got to dwarven mining town up in the frozen north, which was happy to fit us some adamantine armor...  and a very reasonable price on rocknuts.

When my character eventually died to a roper, my next character asked why his bag was full of rocks.  We left them in the dungeon.  Whether non-dwarves could even digest them was never addressed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on December 07, 2019, 07:40:50 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 07, 2019, 04:03:24 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on December 07, 2019, 02:48:59 pm

And even if you are outside, you can probably at least find some cover or something.

That's why the Sharpshooter feat is kinda silly... Not only does it let you utilize the full range of the weapon without disadvantage, it also lets you ignore half and 3/4 cover. So... Basically anything that isn't full cover, and full cover prevents the enemy from seeing or interacting with you as well.

Yeah, but in 5e you can just move out of full cover, shoot, and move back into cover. They probably won't be able to hit you back as well out to that range, and after the first time you'll likely wise up and hold your action to shoot them when they pop out, but it is an option. Or, depending on their objectives, they can just wait behind cover until you come to them or leave.

It certainly changes how the enemy is able to respond you, you can basically pin the enemy down with sniper fire, but it's not an unstoppable technique.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 07, 2019, 08:13:51 pm

Hm, can't you still ready an action to fire when they leave cover?

I'm not sure how readying actions is supposed to work.  We usually roughly play it as delaying the character's turn until the trigger occurs, but for a situation like that we'd probably be allowed to interrupt the opponents turn with an attack (or attack sequence?).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 08:28:13 pm

So the 5e game I'm currently working on PC ideas for starts at level 9 and we've been given a budget of 4500gp to spend on gear, magic items to be assessed by the GM, and I've had a list of magic items I was interested in before. But now I'm sitting here with a spreadsheet open calculating how much I can buy in terms of practical supplies, hirelings, vehicles and so on in order to make a mercenary platoon led by a PC because I'm on a logistics kick now.

Real trouble is looking to be practical transport of gear and supplies. Wagons are a must. Oxen can drag twice as much as draft horses, but draft horses seem more appropriate for the job since they can be used as mounts in an emergency. I'm hitting against the rocket fuel problem a tad, in that food/water weigh a lot, so I need more capacity to carry enough for any reasonable trip, which means more horses which means more food/water.

It turns out 4 horses will need a barrel of water a day between them. A full barrel weighs 395 out of their 1080 pound dragging capacity, so finding water regularly is a necessity because there's no way to carry more than a few days worth.

Not done working things out, but supplies for 30 soldiers including everything from tents to food, to spare clothes and soap, paper and ink for writing messages/drawing maps, cases to keep important ones dry, a chest for valuables, chains and manacles to take 10 captives and so forth all comes up to under 2k so far, which would leave 2500+ gp to spend on a little personal gear and daily wages. Skilled hirelings cost 2gp* a day, so that's only enough to pay them all for one and a half months, which isn't all that long to hit on paying work for a band of thirty soldiers in.

I am looking at four full wagons and eight draft horses just to carry cargo. Everyone not manning a wagon would be walking. I dread to think of how much extra baggage would be needed to feed enough riding horses for the 20 or so walking people.

*The basic cr1/8 Guard probably doesn't justify that price, but cr3 Veterans or Knights would be frankly cheap at that rate.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on December 07, 2019, 08:33:16 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on December 07, 2019, 08:13:51 pm

Hm, can't you still ready an action to fire when they leave cover?

I'm not sure how readying actions is supposed to work.  We usually roughly play it as delaying the character's turn until the trigger occurs, but for a situation like that we'd probably be allowed to interrupt the opponents turn with an attack (or attack sequence?).

I meant to say "ready your action to shoot", but for some reason my brain got messed up into using previous version verbiage. I think I also sometimes also use "minor action" when I mean to say "bonus action".

And readying actions is actually pretty simple. You expend your action on your turn to ready an action, and when the trigger you specified comes up, you use your reaction to do that action. Also, your action takes place right after the trigger occurs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 08, 2019, 04:00:41 pm

So I'm still poking away at mercenary bands and similar armed groups and the expenses involved, which has ultimately brought me to the races like goblins and ogres for whom money isn't of any real value, but consistent good food, warm fires and well made bedrolls are.

So I was looking at the costs of alcohol and spices and things to pay for military service with basic comforts. Couldn't find drugs on any kind.

Ale is pretty cheap, a 40 gallon barrel is 2.8 gold, and 2 gold of that is the barrel. Common wine works out about the same.

Then I looked at saffron, it's 15 gold for a pound. Doesn't tell me much, so I need to know how much saffron you actually need when cooking. A 'pinch' does about 4-6 servings of stew or soup, ok, better, but how much is a pinch? Turns out it's twenty threads. How much does a thread weigh? Anyway long story short, that pound of saffron is enough to season 68000 servings of food. Throw in ginger, cinnamon, pepper, cloves and salt as things you can buy and keeping tasty food on the table seems easy if you can access a half decent field cook.

A chicken is just 2cp and should give about 3 pounds of meat, a goat is 1gp for about 40 pounds, a cow is 10gp for about 430 pounds, so meat isn't too expensive. Flour is cheap at 2cp a pound.

If you find soldiers that will work for bed, board and luxuries it seems quite practical to keep them happy for months or even years with pretty low expenses. I'm sure more than a few ogres and hill giants would be willing to work for all the delicious meat stew and spiced bread they can eat, all the ale they can drink and a soft warm place to sleep. The inevitable brawls would be an issue, but plenty of races in D&D get them to work for them without much issue and they just pay them in raw meat, beatings and the occasional captive to torment.

Finding enough work for them to earn their keep is probably the hardest part of maintaining a band of soldiers, but hey, most D&D settings are rife with problems that can be solved by violence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 08, 2019, 07:02:40 pm

Well, you also got to bother with the local lords or whatever knowing there's some random asshole wandering around with an army of goblins and other assorted nasties.  Probably up to no good with that.

Better send a party of adventurers to go deal with that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 08, 2019, 08:05:04 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on December 08, 2019, 07:02:40 pm

Well, you also got to bother with the local lords or whatever knowing there's some random asshole wandering around with an army of goblins and other assorted nasties.  Probably up to no good with that.

Better send a party of adventurers to go deal with that.

Another problem that can be solved with violence.  :P



More seriously, I don't think it saves much money to go with goods based pay over money. There's no official ideas on how much ogres and so on eat, but I'm pretty sure it'll be in the 40-60 pounds of food a day range for ogres, if not more. Now that's still cheaper than 2gp a day if you can get the infrastructure set up, but transporting food and having camp cooks all adds up to more initial expenditure in terms of draft animals and wagons, sacks and barrels. Not to mention the practicalities of how many chicken cages can you fit in a non-specific wagon? What breed of chicken is it? How much do they weigh? How often can you resupply? Setting up an army is rather expensive and impractical, which is why it tends to be done by countries not bands of semi-nomadic weirdos.

Still fun to do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on December 08, 2019, 11:31:41 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 08, 2019, 04:00:41 pm

So I'm still poking away at mercenary bands and similar armed groups and the expenses involved, which has ultimately brought me to the races like goblins and ogres for whom money isn't of any real value, but consistent good food, warm fires and well made bedrolls are.

So I was looking at the costs of alcohol and spices and things to pay for military service with basic comforts. Couldn't find drugs on any kind.

Ale is pretty cheap, a 40 gallon barrel is 2.8 gold, and 2 gold of that is the barrel. Common wine works out about the same.

Then I looked at saffron, it's 15 gold for a pound. Doesn't tell me much, so I need to know how much saffron you actually need when cooking. A 'pinch' does about 4-6 servings of stew or soup, ok, better, but how much is a pinch? Turns out it's twenty threads. How much does a thread weigh? Anyway long story short, that pound of saffron is enough to season 68000 servings of food. Throw in ginger, cinnamon, pepper, cloves and salt as things you can buy and keeping tasty food on the table seems easy if you can access a half decent field cook.

A chicken is just 2cp and should give about 3 pounds of meat, a goat is 1gp for about 40 pounds, a cow is 10gp for about 430 pounds, so meat isn't too expensive. Flour is cheap at 2cp a pound.

If you find soldiers that will work for bed, board and luxuries it seems quite practical to keep them happy for months or even years with pretty low expenses. I'm sure more than a few ogres and hill giants would be willing to work for all the delicious meat stew and spiced bread they can eat, all the ale they can drink and a soft warm place to sleep. The inevitable brawls would be an issue, but plenty of races in D&D get them to work for them without much issue and they just pay them in raw meat, beatings and the occasional captive to torment.

Finding enough work for them to earn their keep is probably the hardest part of maintaining a band of soldiers, but hey, most D&D settings are rife with problems that can be solved by violence.

You're starting on the True OSR path now, not the lethality meme path, that's good.  Remember, adventuring is not a career path, it's a way to finance your illegitimate borderlands demesne and a mercenary army to fight other illegitimate borderlands demesnes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 09, 2019, 12:31:49 am

Keep on the Illegitimate Borderlands, a classic D&D module.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 09, 2019, 03:45:55 am

To be honest, I'd be pretty down for going full dark lord given half a chance. Social encounters based on placating vassals, military logistics, sieges and open warfare, interacting with party members during the formation of a new kingdom, foreign diplomacy, defending evil ritual sites from waves of enemies in order to summon armies of fiends or undead.

All that fun stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 09, 2019, 06:02:39 am

I'm building an Oath of Conquest Dragonborn right now. This might end up being his long term goals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 09, 2019, 06:26:20 am

I actually started looking at Conquest paladins last night as well.  :P

I had forgotten their aura deals psychic damage to frightened enemies that start their turn within range as well as dropping their movement to 0, which means a paladin with the Menacing feat from UA could stare at someone until they die or pass out. 3 rounds of intimidate checks would be enough for a level 7 paladin to kill a goblin with angry looks alone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 09, 2019, 07:45:55 am

That's so dumb - it must happen. The fear stuff is very cool, but hard to exploit.

Unfortunately, the AoE fear from their Oath gets a save every turn, and from Dragon Fear gives a save if damaged, so...every turn if in the aura. Still, it's a wasted turn for several enemies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 09, 2019, 09:47:52 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 07, 2019, 08:28:13 pm

So the 5e game I'm currently working on PC ideas for starts at level 9 and we've been given a budget of 4500gp to spend on gear, magic items to be assessed by the GM, and I've had a list of magic items I was interested in before. But now I'm sitting here with a spreadsheet open calculating how much I can buy in terms of practical supplies, hirelings, vehicles and so on in order to make a mercenary platoon led by a PC because I'm on a logistics kick now.

Real trouble is looking to be practical transport of gear and supplies. Wagons are a must. Oxen can drag twice as much as draft horses, but draft horses seem more appropriate for the job since they can be used as mounts in an emergency. I'm hitting against the rocket fuel problem a tad, in that food/water weigh a lot, so I need more capacity to carry enough for any reasonable trip, which means more horses which means more food/water.

It turns out 4 horses will need a barrel of water a day between them. A full barrel weighs 395 out of their 1080 pound dragging capacity, so finding water regularly is a necessity because there's no way to carry more than a few days worth.

Not done working things out, but supplies for 30 soldiers including everything from tents to food, to spare clothes and soap, paper and ink for writing messages/drawing maps, cases to keep important ones dry, a chest for valuables, chains and manacles to take 10 captives and so forth all comes up to under 2k so far, which would leave 2500+ gp to spend on a little personal gear and daily wages. Skilled hirelings cost 2gp* a day, so that's only enough to pay them all for one and a half months, which isn't all that long to hit on paying work for a band of thirty soldiers in.

I am looking at four full wagons and eight draft horses just to carry cargo. Everyone not manning a wagon would be walking. I dread to think of how much extra baggage would be needed to feed enough riding horses for the 20 or so walking people.

*The basic cr1/8 Guard probably doesn't justify that price, but cr3 Veterans or Knights would be frankly cheap at that rate.

Remember, Logistics and Dragons is best when everyone (DM possibly as well, YMMV) is on-board before the game. Also, if you're playing a math-based wizard, or huckster bard, or illusionist who makes things appear much more valuable than they appear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 09, 2019, 09:51:34 am

You know, considering the reputation bards get in DnD, I have given some thought to the silliness that might transpire if somebody made a campaign set in the Oglaf universe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 09, 2019, 10:20:13 am

Quote from: delphonso on December 09, 2019, 07:45:55 am

That's so dumb - it must happen. The fear stuff is very cool, but hard to exploit.

Unfortunately, the AoE fear from their Oath gets a save every turn, and from Dragon Fear gives a save if damaged, so...every turn if in the aura. Still, it's a wasted turn for several enemies.

That's where Menacing feat comes in when it's allowed. Double proficiency bonus to Intimidation checks and you can swap out 1 attack per turn for a Cha(Intimidate) check opposed by the targets Wis(Insight). If they fail they're frightened for one round, if they pass they're immune for an hour.

On a normal PC it's just a form of really good cc, on a Conquest Paladin it turns you into a monument of fear who can kill with their will alone.

Quote from: Iduno on December 09, 2019, 09:47:52 am

Remember, Logistics and Dragons is best when everyone (DM possibly as well, YMMV) is on-board before the game. Also, if you're playing a math-based wizard, or huckster bard, or illusionist who makes things appear much more valuable than they appear.

I was originally leaning towards a fighter myself. Halberd, heavy armour, be one of the 30 soldiers as a mercenary captain looking for work with his lads, get stuck in as a pikewall with the front line hirelings. Good Charisma and Inspiring Leader and so on to be the stressed but outwardly optimistic boss just looking to keep the lads alive and in the green for another month at a time.

'Well that job with the troll will handle payroll for two weeks, but Aedric and Edmund won't be fighting fit for three. Need to find paying work for a reduced company fast or things could get desperate. Better send some lads to check for bounties, hit up the townsfolk and I'll have to slog up to whoever's in charge that will deign to speak with me and ask about stuff that might earn us some money.'

That sort of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mesa on December 09, 2019, 10:41:29 am

Finally bit the bullet and decided to run a Starfinder campaign for my group. (Mostly thanks to the recent release of the Character Operations Manual.)
I pitched it as "XCOM meets Doom meets Destiny" - devils are invading the solar system, having overtaken one of the worlds for themselves as a beachhead, and the remaining worlds have founded a sort of Multiplanetary Anti-Devil XCOM, called Project PALADIN, to drive them back and the party are a new team of recruits.

And it sure is a colorful bunch:
- an uplifted bear technomancer
- a dragonkin soldier (with a barbarian-esque fighting style)
- a human envoy
- a dessamar (humanoid butterfly alien) mystic

They still need to pick which world they want to initially operate within (it's a tailor-made solar system, though still pretty kitchen-sinky in terms of the types of locales available - it all used to be part of one interplanetary empire that has since collapsed, so it's got that "classic D&D setting" vibe to it there, with lots of ruins and stuff to explore, particularly those of the "old XCOM" from that era).
I was initially worried since Starfinder's devil/demon selection is at best anemic, but then I found out how monster creation works, so now I'm excited to stat out some cool Doom-esque cybernetically-enhanced baddies.
There won't be like, the entire XCOM strategy/management layer, because that sounds like way too much for what seems to be the first time I actually feel confident in my ability to run a campaign for more than a few sessions - I have a strong pitch that's easy to write individual missions/adventures for, and at least a roughly idea of how it'll go (eventually they'll join one of the more specialized divisions of PALADIN and take on higher-responsibility missions, all while uncovering the devils' plan to eventually reactivate an old warp gate, establishing a connection to Hell and subjugating the entire system...So that'll be fun.) Also there might be demons and cults and corrupt nobles along the way too.

And if they end up losing, I can pull of XCOM 2! How convenient!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 09, 2019, 12:09:11 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on December 08, 2019, 07:02:40 pm

Well, you also got to bother with the local lords or whatever knowing there's some random asshole wandering around with an army of goblins and other assorted nasties.  Probably up to no good with that.

Better send a party of adventurers to go deal with that.

"Dear Lord X, please schedule more loot deliveries. Signed, the adventurers with an army wandering around your lands looting stuff."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 09, 2019, 12:16:26 pm

So, couple slightly diffuse questions here...

I've fiddled with the idea of a "mundane" healer, specifically a Thief archetype Rogue with a pack full of healer's kits and the Healer feat. Basic theory being a combat medic pressed into service by an underground organization, they have some disagreements, the medic becomes a fugitive yadda yadda medicine and crime. Not hugely original, but serves the purpose.

The issue here, of course, is that Rogues don't have much use for Wisdom and healer's kits specifically don't use the Medicine skill... But it seems a bit strange for a career medic not have a semi-decent score in that skill. So, what... Invest in a stat and skill that you'll rarely if ever use just for the sake of backing up the fluff, or leave it dumped and try to argue why your doctor can't actually doctor very doctorly?


Second question relates to a concept for a butler/bodyguard character, using a monk to fit the unarmed/unarmored/still competent bill. I'm not finding many specific rules on the topic, so I figured I'd ask how likely y'all think it is that a DM could be convinced to let you use a reaction to jump between your master and a projectile attack fired at them? Presumably it'd ask a bit too much to be able to use the monk's Deflect Missiles on top of that, since that specifically requires a reaction, but at least some form of actually protecting your charge would be nice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 09, 2019, 12:26:21 pm

Rogues have a ton of use for Wisdom because their whole shtick is getting the drop on people and that's more difficult with low Wisdom. If you want to have profiency in Medicine, you certainly can, but going to class and learning how to use a Healer's Kit, and actually being able to diagnose injuries are completely separate things in my book.

For a bodyguard, Mark of Sentinel Human has a reaction ability that's very similar to what you're looking for.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 10, 2019, 02:02:32 pm

Played an xmas special session of 5e today. Highlights:

• My summoned reindeer (statted as a pony) got the last hit on high-level enemies multiple times. Despite being primarily a joke and having only 11 hit points, it survived the session.
• Death knight sleigh pulled by undead flying reindeer; our sorcerer's lightning bolt spell killed all of them on one side, causing the sleigh to spiral and crash...with our ranger on it.
• Beholder ambushed one half of a split party. Unfortunately for it, that half was our nuker and both of our strikers; it died in 2 rounds.
• Our cleric/gourmet chef decided that the beholder would make a great head cheese and made it into a holiday feast.
• For the next session, we decided to get on a boat. Yes, that is a terrible idea, especially given how high a CR our party has proved itself capable of facing...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on December 10, 2019, 02:28:13 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 09, 2019, 12:16:26 pm

Second question relates to a concept for a butler/bodyguard character, using a monk to fit the unarmed/unarmored/still competent bill. I'm not finding many specific rules on the topic, so I figured I'd ask how likely y'all think it is that a DM could be convinced to let you use a reaction to jump between your master and a projectile attack fired at them? Presumably it'd ask a bit too much to be able to use the monk's Deflect Missiles on top of that, since that specifically requires a reaction, but at least some form of actually protecting your charge would be nice.

You could also dip fighter for the Protection fighting style, which lets you impose disadvantage on an attack on something within 5ft of you as a reaction.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 10, 2019, 02:42:40 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on December 10, 2019, 02:28:13 pm

You could also dip fighter for the Protection fighting style, which lets you impose disadvantage on an attack on something within 5ft of you as a reaction.

*requires the use of a shield

Yeah, I was looking at that too, but monks and shields don't get along very well. I considered the possibility of just doing a dex fighter with some sort of custom reinforced dress garment or whatever serving as light armor, and phrasing a serving platter as a shield, but... Eh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Imic on December 11, 2019, 01:45:00 pm

I’m hosting a D&D session on friday, and while most of the Dungeon they will be entering is finished, I still have one problem: puzzles.

The gimmick of the Dungeon is that it’s an ancient abandoned Magitech Dragoborn Laboratory built in a massive stalegtite over a seemingly bottomless saltwater lake, all of which is at the lowest level of the Underdark. Things came out of a pit, the Draginborn dissaproved, so first they threw in rocks, and more things came out, then they threw in magma, and more things came out, then they started emptying desert’s worth of sand into the pit and still stuff came out, so they dug a massive pipe to the ocean and filled it with saltwaypter. On the one hand, it definitely isn’t bottomless if tpit could be filled with saltwater, on the other hand, no-one ever went down to find out. Things still came out, but lesser things, at least comparatively, so they built 5 laboratories around the Lake to study it. They were connected to the rest of the underground Kingdom via magitech trams. In the end, they despcided to pack up and leave for reasons unknown.
(Tl;dr: lab built over lake of evil gribbles is abandoned because of reasons)

None of that really matters, though. What matters is that the doors have tow levels of securitym a key, and a puzzle. The key is so that only a few People can get in. The puzzles are so as if the keys are stolen, they still can’t get in. The puzzles can’t involve massive amounts of magic, and they need to be obtuse, with no available hints. Instead, the Players will be given a few notes belonging to a dead Scientist which essentially amount to password hints. The idea is that first they figure out what the hint means, then they figure out how it relates to the five chains, a wheel and an engraving of a frog with a beard that’s on the door. This is all really important for plot reasons, but so far not a single place I have gone looking for ideas in has given me more than one or twosolid ideas. I’m getting desperate, and my own mind is turning up blanks, and I’ve lost my old Professor Layton games at some point over the years. Pls help.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 11, 2019, 01:55:06 pm

Quote from: Imic on December 11, 2019, 01:45:00 pm

I’m hosting a D&D session on friday, and while most of the Dungeon they will be entering is finished, I still have one problem: puzzles.

The gimmick of the Dungeon is that it’s an ancient abandoned Magitech Dragoborn Laboratory built in a massive stalegtite over a seemingly bottomless saltwater lake, all of which is at the lowest level of the Underdark. Things came out of a pit, the Draginborn dissaproved, so first they threw in rocks, and more things came out, then they threw in magma, and more things came out, then they started emptying desert’s worth of sand into the pit and still stuff came out, so they dug a massive pipe to the ocean and filled it with saltwaypter. On the one hand, it definitely isn’t bottomless if tpit could be filled with saltwater, on the other hand, no-one ever went down to find out. Things still came out, but lesser things, at least comparatively, so they built 5 laboratories around the Lake to study it. They were connected to the rest of the underground Kingdom via magitech trams. In the end, they despcided to pack up and leave for reasons unknown.
(Tl;dr: lab built over lake of evil gribbles is abandoned because of reasons)

None of that really matters, though. What matters is that the doors have tow levels of securitym a key, and a puzzle. The key is so that only a few People can get in. The puzzles are so as if the keys are stolen, they still can’t get in. The puzzles can’t involve massive amounts of magic, and they need to be obtuse, with no available hints. Instead, the Players will be given a few notes belonging to a dead Scientist which essentially amount to password hints. The idea is that first they figure out what the hint means, then they figure out how it relates to the five chains, a wheel and an engraving of a frog with a beard that’s on the door. This is all really important for plot reasons, but so far not a single place I have gone looking for ideas in has given me more than one or twosolid ideas. I’m getting desperate, and my own mind is turning up blanks, and I’ve lost my old Professor Layton games at some point over the years. Pls help.

You'd probably also want it to be based around Dragonborn abilities, so they can still lend out their key to their subordinate, but not just anyone can use the key.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 11, 2019, 02:23:47 pm

Are you asking for help with ideas for how the door opens or just clues for how it opens? Either way we kind of need to know more about the door.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Imic on December 11, 2019, 02:33:41 pm

I need ideas for both, because my mind just keeps on drawing blanks. A door might, for example, have a keyhole and five chains, with the hint being a paragraph of gibberish with four lines, and five words in each line, the answer being to pull the fourth chain five times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 11, 2019, 03:13:46 pm

Well to use that idea a simple one would be if each sentence corresponded to a single chain pull.

So four words, three words, two words, four words, five words so the combo is just 43245.

Gibberish notes could be something like.

Quote

In the chamber plain

A swaddling babe

sleeping lay

while dark things crept

from the waters deep below

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 11, 2019, 03:30:44 pm

Quote from: Imic on December 11, 2019, 02:33:41 pm

I need ideas for both, because my mind just keeps on drawing blanks. A door might, for example, have a keyhole and five chains, with the hint being a paragraph of gibberish with four lines, and five words in each line, the answer being to pull the fourth chain five times.

Knowing that the number of words was the clue (the players would not), I got the answer wrong.

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 11, 2019, 03:13:46 pm

Well to use that idea a simple one would be if each sentence corresponded to a single chain pull.

So four words, three words, two words, four words, five words so the combo is just 43245.

Is the answer "fuck it, let's just knock down the door?"


This reminds me of when I was going to mess with the players by having them complete a towers of Hanoi to get through a door, except the last piece is welded to the floor, and the answer is "the door doesn't even have a lock on it, but the poison gas vent is real." I got rid of that idea because it was too stupid for an insane AI who wanted to mess with people, and might the get characters all killed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on December 12, 2019, 09:25:44 am

the correct answer to any door puzzle is to break the door down.  If the door is unbreakable, break the wall and steal the door to make armor out of

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 12, 2019, 10:03:14 am

Spoiler: appropriate image (click to show/hide)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpK2pACW0AEwKXz.jpg)

I would almost pay money to see the look on the DM's face on that one...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on December 12, 2019, 10:23:30 am

Well there's two routes a startled DM could take there. You could smile, compliment the players on their clever use of lateral thinking, and let them run off with their ill-gotten gains...

...or you could fill the room behind entirely with magma, which promptly floods out and incinerates the would-be door-snatchers. "Behind one door certain death", after all. :))

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 12, 2019, 11:14:35 am

Amusing touch that the truth door explains the rules (or WAS it a truth door?)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on December 12, 2019, 12:20:23 pm

That used to be real shit.  Back when the point of thr game was amassing treasure adventurers were like dungeon locusts, they'd cut tapestries down and pull out the mummy's gold teeth, strip the dungeon bare..

That kind of thing is why i try not to overthink puzzles.   A lot of players (me included) get a kick out of finding weird ways to traverse a puzzle,  its the d&d equivalent of getting into an arra you're not supposed to by climbing over a low spot in the level geometry

Dont get attached to your puzzles, players like to smash them

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 12, 2019, 12:26:07 pm

Spoiler: Relevant and SFW (click to show/hide)

(https://media.oglaf.com/comic/trapmaster.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 12, 2019, 12:43:25 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 12, 2019, 12:20:23 pm

That used to be real shit.  Back when the point of thr game was amassing treasure adventurers were like dungeon locusts, they'd cut tapestries down and pull out the mummy's gold teeth, strip the dungeon bare..

That kind of thing is why i try not to overthink puzzles.   A lot of players (me included) get a kick out of finding weird ways to traverse a puzzle,  its the d&d equivalent of getting into an arra you're not supposed to by climbing over a low spot in the level geometry

Dont get attached to your puzzles, players like to smash them

Especially when they're trying to be clever (https://www.xkcd.com/169/). Players aren't mindreaders, but they might be assholes (and definitely are if they're stymied by "clever" puzzles for too long). Destroying the puzzles out of spite is entirely reasonable.

You may want to have the puzzles' creator meet the PCs in-game, so they can give their feedback. With swords.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 12, 2019, 05:42:22 pm

Hey, it worked for Alexander

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 13, 2019, 07:21:41 pm

I'm feeling a real pull towards making a hireling focused character atm. Part of is that I'm still finding myself trying to work out the practicalities of travelling with a band of monstrous mercenaries, part of it is that the game it'd most likely wind up in already has two necromancers* so minion based ideas are on the table and part of it is that goblinoids are getting the short stick in the group's shared setting and I kind of want to make a character who wants to change that by carving out his own goblinoid kingdom for the poor buggers.
 
Plus I like the visual of a Hobgoblin/Bugbear warlord riding a chariot pulled by worgs. Impractical but badass.  8)

On the other hand doing so would definitely pile onto the difficulty of running the game for the GM, and I'm worried he'd approve it in a general feeling of overconfidence.  :-\


*And an awakened cat who will probably be some kind of social skill monkey or an enchantment magic specialist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 14, 2019, 08:12:25 am

I would discuss it with the DM and institute some sort of cap for the number of non-PC party members. The necromancers get those zombies as a class feature, so they should take priority - perhaps only your second in command gobbo joins most fights, or a small personal guard, while the rest of the squad is out in other parts of the dungeon kicking ass off screen.

Unrelated:
I'm trying to build a campaign in a much different style than usual - I railroad a bit (especially by some definitions) so I generally plan only key points and all the middle bits are improv. I'm trying to mimic the Lost Mines of Phandelver's style of a hub city with several adventures outside and in it. But, I'm also trying to make them link together instead of the sort of hap-hazard mess of combat encounters in Phandelver.

Any suggestions for intrigue and issues in a small city (4000 people, about)?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 14, 2019, 09:02:19 am

Where does Bob the butcher get his meat, and why is it so cheap?

Is the lady-consort of the burgermeister REALLY engaged in unsavory politics with the butler and other staff?

How can there be so many rats in the city, when eradication efforts are so stringent?

What is that odd smell coming form 5th street and park avenue?

What happens to all the orphans sent to St Bridget's?

Why is the governor so fixated on doubling this year's tribute?

Clever Schmitt, the local peddler, seems quite eager to evade the publican this year-- why?

How DOES goodie Martin keep her whites so white?

A new woman has come to town, and for some reason, all the men are acting strangely in a certain neighborhood she has moved into.

A local farm's soil has suddenly and completely lost all ability to grow crops.

The gnomish inventor has his neighbors flustered by something...

There's something "off" about the vicar at local chapter of the sun god...

Local jewelers are pleased but curious about how and where a regular trader keeps bringing them quality jewels for sale

The burgermeister looks paler than usual today...


etc..

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 14, 2019, 09:49:41 am

I like how all of those could range from nefarious to mundane depending on the tone of your game or which ones you want to string together into a larger narrative.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 14, 2019, 10:02:52 am

I've actually linked quite a few events to a necromancer outside the city (paying criminals for corpses, attempts to steal a spellbook, wandering undead in the nearby woods) but several of these add both to the mystery and to the strangeness of the town.

Goodie Martin's teeth especially...

Cheers wierd - keep that mind of your just as strange forever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 14, 2019, 10:27:01 am

Quote from: delphonso on December 14, 2019, 10:02:52 am

I've actually linked quite a few events to a necromancer outside the city (paying criminals for corpses, attempts to steal a spellbook, wandering undead in the nearby woods) but several of these add both to the mystery and to the strangeness of the town.

Goodie Martin's teeth especially...

Cheers wierd - keep that mind of your just as strange forever.

Pretty sure that's Goodie Martin's laundry, actually, but I suppose it's ambiguous. Perhaps we're both wrong and it's referring to ethnicity and in fact the UN council has sent the adventurers to investigate allegations of eugenics.

Probably not, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: birdy51 on December 14, 2019, 12:58:40 pm

I for one, think Goodie Martin must be tried at the stake.

No crimes, I mean, people cast spells all the time. She's just had it too Goodie for too long...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 16, 2019, 06:22:58 pm

Another fast food based RPG innovation. (https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=2498517157026802&_rdr)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 16, 2019, 06:26:18 pm

The link doesn't work for me.  I have a Facebook account but I'm probably not logged in, and also I'd rather have a screenshot than a direct link to Facebook, if it's all the same to you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 16, 2019, 06:46:25 pm

It's a video so screenshots are blah but here you go.

(https://i.imgur.com/woClY8M.png)

Not pictured, the Arby's branded d20.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 17, 2019, 04:46:28 am

Doesn't having steps like that make it easier to manipulate what face face upwards when it comes out?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 17, 2019, 05:01:14 am

somebody needs to invent a pop-o-matic-bubble that you can open and insert whatever number or kind of dice into.

 I've seen videos of people that surgically extracted the one from a Trouble!(tm) board game, but fitting the correct numbers and types of dice inside for each situation is not really doable with that solution.

One with pop-off cap on top would be ideal if it was large enough. (high level chars can have absurd numbers of hit dice, so lots of room inside is needed.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 17, 2019, 05:18:09 am

Yes please. Screw rolling boxes - this is what I want for Christmas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 17, 2019, 06:21:25 am

for some reason I am reminded of a thing I came up with when visiting my friend a few months ago.  Bear in mind I have made no effort whatsoever to flesh this out, it's just a nebulous concept at the moment, but all the same:

if you and your group dont want to commit to a long and drawn out campaign, you could try something like this:  everyone puts an idea for a random encounter on a bit of paper, along with a kind of dice, and a number appropriate for it.  This includes loot finds, monsers, etc, and also character templates. The idea is to do a mad-libs kind of random one-off session. Absurd actions, loot items, and outcomes are ENCOURAGED. we are talking things like "Traveling Drow televangelist" and "gnomish interior decorator" level of absurd here. once you have all the batshit crazy from your players collected and organized in your notebook, you load up a bingo tumbler with as many whole bags of dice as will reliably fit inside. 

Now, rules are fast and loose. no rule lawyering, since this is meant to be pure silly.  To start, each player rolls the tumbler to determine what they are playing as (die value and type together determine, based on what the players threw down earlier.) Once everyone knows what they are playing as, the DM tumbles and collects a die from the tumbler to state the current objective. (again, the type and value determine).  then rolls again for the first encounter.

each player gets a turn, each drawing a random die from the tumbler. Regardless of how absurd the drawn die, that is what determines how effective your chosen action was.  at the monster's turn, a die is selected which determines its action and outcome.  When the players vanquish the monster or finish the encounter,  a draw from the tumbler is made for loot.  this continues until either everyone dies spectacularly, or the tumbler runs dry.

This kind of thing is intended for "everyone but a few people cant make it this week" type nights, where you want some fun, but dont want to progress a campain.

I am sure there are problems with the idea, it's just a nebulous concept after all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 17, 2019, 11:52:47 am

Quote from: wierd on December 17, 2019, 05:01:14 am

somebody needs to invent a pop-o-matic-bubble that you can open and insert whatever number or kind of dice into.

 I've seen videos of people that surgically extracted the one from a Trouble!(tm) board game, but fitting the correct numbers and types of dice inside for each situation is not really doable with that solution.

One with pop-off cap on top would be ideal if it was large enough. (high level chars can have absurd numbers of hit dice, so lots of room inside is needed.)

How about taking a hamster ball and gluing a flat piece of cardboard to the bottom, opposite the cap?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 17, 2019, 11:53:51 am

One of those dog toys that rolls out candy when rolled?

Bonus if it's in the shape of a big die with small dice coming out of it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 17, 2019, 11:59:01 am

Quote from: Trekkin on December 17, 2019, 11:52:47 am

Quote from: wierd on December 17, 2019, 05:01:14 am

somebody needs to invent a pop-o-matic-bubble that you can open and insert whatever number or kind of dice into.

 I've seen videos of people that surgically extracted the one from a Trouble!(tm) board game, but fitting the correct numbers and types of dice inside for each situation is not really doable with that solution.

One with pop-off cap on top would be ideal if it was large enough. (high level chars can have absurd numbers of hit dice, so lots of room inside is needed.)

How about taking a hamster ball and gluing a flat piece of cardboard to the bottom, opposite the cap?

You need the thing that rolls them. I'm not sure what makes the pop-o-matic bubble work, but I'm guessing it's the metal being flexed (by some object beneath it) the opposite way it's formed, and bouncing back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 17, 2019, 12:00:37 pm

How is that better than just shaking the whole thing, though, particularly when you may well have dice piled on top of each other?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 17, 2019, 12:13:01 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on December 17, 2019, 12:00:37 pm

How is that better than just shaking the whole thing, though, particularly when you may well have dice piled on top of each other?

Nothing? It's a conversation about dice towers, which are the most difficult way to keep people from controlling the dice rolls. Those old felt-lined cups were the best solution, and always will be. We're just looking for a particularly complicated type of lesser solution.


Edit: Someone create a Rube Goldberg gimmick account, I've got an idea...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 18, 2019, 01:22:07 pm

Character suggestion: A tabaxi who is a human otherkin (To clarify, it is a tabaxi, but it identifies as human). Probably shaves its fur.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 18, 2019, 01:50:15 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 18, 2019, 01:22:07 pm

Character suggestion: A tabaxi who is a human otherkin (To clarify, it is a tabaxi, but it identifies as human). Probably shaves its fur.

If tabaxi have breeds like real cats do and there's a tabaxi-sphynx, is this basically unintentional blackface?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 18, 2019, 01:56:29 pm

Quote from: Iduno on December 17, 2019, 12:13:01 pm

Quote from: Trekkin on December 17, 2019, 12:00:37 pm

How is that better than just shaking the whole thing, though, particularly when you may well have dice piled on top of each other?

Nothing? It's a conversation about dice towers, which are the most difficult way to keep people from controlling the dice rolls. Those old felt-lined cups were the best solution, and always will be. We're just looking for a particularly complicated type of lesser solution.


Edit: Someone create a Rube Goldberg gimmick account, I've got an idea...

If you're tricky, you can stack your dice in those cups. It's just harder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 18, 2019, 02:22:24 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on December 18, 2019, 01:50:15 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 18, 2019, 01:22:07 pm

Character suggestion: A tabaxi who is a human otherkin (To clarify, it is a tabaxi, but it identifies as human). Probably shaves its fur.

If tabaxi have breeds like real cats do and there's a tabaxi-sphynx, is this basically unintentional blackface?

I personally am of the opinion that if its unintentional, it's not blackface at all. Blackface is a caricature after all, so if you're not intending to mock blacks, not even subconsciously, it's not blackface.

But it would also depend on Tabaxi breeds having similar relationships between themselves to Earth humans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 18, 2019, 03:09:30 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 18, 2019, 01:22:07 pm

Character suggestion: A tabaxi who is a human otherkin (To clarify, it is a tabaxi, but it identifies as human). Probably shaves its fur.

Brings to mind the Imga (iirc), the ape-men of TES that shave themselves to look human

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 19, 2019, 05:12:33 am

Spoiler: *Snort* (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/aFa4z1g.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 19, 2019, 05:15:06 am

Sounds a lot like the Wand of Undead Turning from Nethack.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You point it at a corpse, and it is revived (it unturns dead).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 19, 2019, 05:32:21 am

And here I was expecting it'd just rotate them 180 degrees

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 19, 2019, 05:56:27 pm

For reasons I'm still not entirely able to articulate to myself, I really want to play in or GM for a game where the PCs are colonists/scouts from MtGs New Phyrexia sent to another plane to spread the philosophy and corruption of Phyrexia, but the machine that was used to send them breaks and strands them as the first and only wave of phyrexian invaders, forcing them to start and direct the process of phyresis themselves.

Something pleases me about the idea of a party having to find ways to spread their contagion in ways that either let it become publicly accepted or even endorsed to undergo completion, or that keep it secret so it isn't burned away before it can take root and grow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 19, 2019, 07:33:54 pm

I enjoy the idea of casting Animal Messenger every day to send a bird or squirrel or something to hurl insults at a very important noble, purely for the sake of bombarding the poor man with slurs he knows are coming but doesn't know when they'll come or what they'll contain, eventually sending him spiraling into madness and ordering the death of every small animal for miles around in order to get some respite from the constant degradation at the hands of wildlife.

Bonus points if you get to mimic someone else's voice while recording the message for the animal.


I mean, sure, you could do something marginally useful like setting up a password-activated glyph or weapon enchantment and then sending an animal in to pronounce the command word when your assassination target is present... But insulting someone Disney princess style seems much more entertaining.



On an unrelated note, since it can be used to emulate speech and doesn't have a verbal component, can Kenku just use Minor Illusion to speak complete non-mimicked sentences (thereby ruining the fun for everyone)? ...speaking of, can Kenku even cast spells with verbal components? How does that work?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 19, 2019, 07:41:10 pm

I'm pretty sure that Kenku can still make non-speaking bird noises, right? Is so, the proper combination of those could probably be used for verbal components, because those are stated to be particular combinations of sounds more than specific words, and it's never stated that only humans can make the right vocalizations.
Probably.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2019, 10:29:04 pm

I'd be willing to bet most nobles would know Animal Messenger is a spell that exists in the world, at least, in most of the D&D worlds I tend to run around in.

Most Kenku casters I've seen just have their character mimicking whoever they learned the spell from.

Minor Illusion would probably, work, but the same thing that makes Kenku unable to speak would probably apply to using Minor Illusion as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on December 19, 2019, 10:47:41 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 19, 2019, 05:56:27 pm

For reasons I'm still not entirely able to articulate to myself, I really want to play in or GM for a game where the PCs are colonists/scouts from MtGs New Phyrexia sent to another plane to spread the philosophy and corruption of Phyrexia, but the machine that was used to send them breaks and strands them as the first and only wave of phyrexian invaders, forcing them to start and direct the process of phyresis themselves.

Something pleases me about the idea of a party having to find ways to spread their contagion in ways that either let it become publicly accepted or even endorsed to undergo completion, or that keep it secret so it isn't burned away before it can take root and grow.

You want a cabal of thoroughly evil and ruthless scientists to spread an oil/ethos that makes people into cyborg zombies, so how long before the game turns into Cyberpunk: MtG?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 20, 2019, 03:25:45 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2019, 10:29:04 pm

I'd be willing to bet most nobles would know Animal Messenger is a spell that exists in the world, at least, in most of the D&D worlds I tend to run around in.

Well sure, but that doesn't mean they know who is casting it. Hence the added bonus if you're allowed to mimic someone else's voice while doing it..

They know someone must be taking the piss, but the spell isn't particularly traceable if they don't recognize your voice. So they grow increasingly frustrated with the thought that some impertinent asshole is mocking their station, but they can't really stop them from doing so. Their power and authority mean nothing against the onslaught of sheer cheek.

...and if you're imitating someone else's voice, if they happen upon that individual they'll probably fly into a rage and enact swift vengeance for the innumerable slights on their honor. I can only imagine the flood of emotions when they get another one with the same voice the next day...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 20, 2019, 03:28:02 am

No no no.

If you can disguise the voice, have the spell uttered in  *THEIR* voice.

With "Daily reminder!" as the message, reminding them to do various horrific and politically suicidal things.  Right there, in court. In front of everyone.

EG-- when the "Very important diplomat" is in the court, "Daily Reminder!" to remind the king that he "Needs to butter that turkey up real good before he sticks it to em, and invades without warning." 

Follow promptly with another "reminder" not to have his messengers remind him in court.
and then another, that he needs to keep "His condition" under control, and to "Drink his potion daily."

Etc.

If you are gonna fuck with royalty, you gotta make it absolutely sensational.  That way, the more he denies it, the more sensational it becomes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 20, 2019, 04:09:04 am

"Note to self: Remember meeting with the baron's wife tonight; don't forget to take those potent herbs from the healer! We don't want another incident like last time."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 20, 2019, 04:26:53 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 19, 2019, 07:33:54 pm

On an unrelated note, since it can be used to emulate speech and doesn't have a verbal component, can Kenku just use Minor Illusion to speak complete non-mimicked sentences (thereby ruining the fun for everyone)?

Not easily, because they've also been cursed with a lack of creativity. Spontaneously coming up with a fresh sentence is difficult, though maybe something like making a previously heard sentence in someone else's voice could happen.

When I played a kenku caster, I had him be a retrograde amnesiac. This way, when he learned new spells, it wasn't be a matter of study as it is for many other casters, but of simply remembering previously forgotten things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 20, 2019, 04:39:43 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 20, 2019, 04:09:04 am

"Note to self: Remember meeting with the baron's wife tonight; don't forget to take those potent herbs from the healer! We don't want another incident like last time."

Right idea, not salacious enough.

No no.. Not the barnoness,  no no.  Now, reminding him that he needs to bribe the baron's stable hand to get unfettered access to the baron's horse-- now THAT's salacious!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 20, 2019, 04:50:22 am

A small rodent runs up to the king. "My Lord, the our of adventure is almost upon us! Doth thy dungeon open for me again this eve?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 20, 2019, 05:44:13 am

Don't want to tip it off that this is somebody else sending the messengers.  The premise is that the king is sending them to himself, remember?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 20, 2019, 09:21:03 am

Quote from: wierd on December 20, 2019, 04:39:43 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 20, 2019, 04:09:04 am

"Note to self: Remember meeting with the baron's wife tonight; don't forget to take those potent herbs from the healer! We don't want another incident like last time."

Right idea, not salacious enough.

No no.. Not the barnoness,  no no.  Now, reminding him that he needs to bribe the baron's stable hand to get unfettered access to the baron's horse-- now THAT's salacious!

In the medieval period, if the King wanted the baron's horse for any reason, he would simply order the Baron to give it to him.
And having sex with a horse is not actually that weird for a medieval king. It would not hurt his reputation that much.
It at least wouldn't effect him that much, since anyone who tries to insult him who isn't the fool will be executed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 20, 2019, 10:02:13 am

1, Yes, it is
2, No, they wouldn't
3, Even if it is, you don't talk behind somebody's back in front of their face

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on December 20, 2019, 11:16:25 am

I've discovered a new actual play podcast and it's pretty great.

Any fans of Delta Green and related styles of game? Orpheus Protocol is both the name of the podcast and the name of the game that they're designing. The PCs are Orpheus agents (generally; I just started the third arc and I think the PCs are teens with what I'm going to describe as a more serious Mysteries, Inc thing going on) tasked with investigating various supernatural situations. It's funny. It's engaging. It's... pretty gory. The GM/editor has a way with words and great editing skills. Keeping in mind the guidelines in the OP, I won't discuss the icky stuff unless people want to hear it and they direct me to a podcast thread. But if that sounds interesting at all, go give it a listen. (http://orpheusprotocol.com/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 20, 2019, 12:03:50 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 20, 2019, 09:21:03 am

Quote from: wierd on December 20, 2019, 04:39:43 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 20, 2019, 04:09:04 am

"Note to self: Remember meeting with the baron's wife tonight; don't forget to take those potent herbs from the healer! We don't want another incident like last time."

Right idea, not salacious enough.

No no.. Not the barnoness,  no no.  Now, reminding him that he needs to bribe the baron's stable hand to get unfettered access to the baron's horse-- now THAT's salacious!

In the medieval period, if the King wanted the baron's horse for any reason, he would simply order the Baron to give it to him.
And having sex with a horse is not actually that weird for a medieval king. It would not hurt his reputation that much.
It at least wouldn't effect him that much, since anyone who tries to insult him who isn't the fool will be executed.

You aren't thinking about it the right way.  Intrigue is a convoluted, and complicated web of concepts.

1) Yes- the king can demand basically anything, and his subjects are compelled to comply. However, politics is all about image.  If a king feels there is nothing wrong whatsoever with being a horse fucker (or being fucked by a horse, as the case may be... I intended this latter), he will be open about it and inform the baron openly that he is a fine judge of horse-flesh, and that he wants the use of the horse for the night.

That is NOT what we are establishing here, with the message.

Firstly, the reminder is to bribe the stable hand; This immediately asserts that the king himself views the act as disfavorable, and something to be concealed. Secondly, it asserts that the king is willing to use covert and illicit means to secure something he finds disfavorable for himself. Thirdly, it asserts that the baron's estate has untrustworthy staff, and that the king is exploiting this to his clandestine advantage,  and fourthly, he is doing this knowing full well that the baron will disapprove, and is doing it ANYWAY. (thus showing open disdain for the baron.)

This is in addition to the obvious slight against the king's mental health, by brightly spotlighting that he is so forgetful or mentally infirm that he must remind himself of his clever schemes throughout the day, and that he is so far down that road, that he also must remind himself not to set reminders that others will hear.

Actively seeking a very... unique... form of sexual gratification, and doing so clandestinely, fits neatly with the theme of nascent mental illness (and thus inability to properly rule), much more than more ordinary lust (such as for the baroness.)

That is why it is more salacious. 

The danger that the king will then attempt to DENY the now high-gossip topic, will only cement it further that the king is insecure about himself and his ability to govern.

Perversely, this may force the king to openly engage in such practices to re-secure the image that he is a powerful dictator that is secure and proud in his pronouncements, and bold in his actions. (rather than cowardly, by acting through deceit.)

EG-- It might force him to have to go get fucked by the baron's horse to save face.

Which is why it is so much more delicious.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 20, 2019, 12:09:47 pm

Quote from: wierd on December 20, 2019, 12:03:50 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on December 20, 2019, 09:21:03 am

Quote from: wierd on December 20, 2019, 04:39:43 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 20, 2019, 04:09:04 am

"Note to self: Remember meeting with the baron's wife tonight; don't forget to take those potent herbs from the healer! We don't want another incident like last time."

Right idea, not salacious enough.

No no.. Not the barnoness,  no no.  Now, reminding him that he needs to bribe the baron's stable hand to get unfettered access to the baron's horse-- now THAT's salacious!

In the medieval period, if the King wanted the baron's horse for any reason, he would simply order the Baron to give it to him.
And having sex with a horse is not actually that weird for a medieval king. It would not hurt his reputation that much.
It at least wouldn't effect him that much, since anyone who tries to insult him who isn't the fool will be executed.

You aren't thinking about it the right way.  Intrigue is a convoluted, and complicated web of concepts.

1) Yes- the king can demand basically anything, and his subjects are compelled to comply. However, politics is all about image.  If a king feels there is nothing wrong whatsoever with being a horse fucker (or being fucked by a horse, as the case may be... I intended this latter), he will be open about it and inform the baron openly that he is a fine judge of horse-flesh, and that he wants the use of the horse for the night.

That is NOT what we are establishing here, with the message.

Firstly, the reminder is to bribe the stable hand; This immediately asserts that the king himself views the act as disfavorable, and something to be concealed. Secondly, it asserts that the king is willing to use covert and illicit means to secure something he finds disfavorable for himself. Thirdly, it asserts that the baron's estate has untrustworthy staff, and that the king is exploiting this to his clandestine advantage,  and fourthly, he is doing this knowing full well that the baron will disapprove, and is doing it ANYWAY. (thus showing open disdain for the baron.)

This is in addition to the obvious slight against the king's mental health, by brightly spotlighting that he is so forgetful or mentally infirm that he must remind himself of his clever schemes throughout the day, and that he is so far down that road, that he also must remind himself not to set reminders that others will hear.

Actively seeking a very... unique... form of sexual gratification, and doing so clandestinely, fits neatly with the theme of nascent mental illness (and thus inability to properly rule), much more than more ordinary lust (such as for the baroness.)

That is why it is more salacious.

I admit I didn't think of things like that.
Still, if the king is anything like an actual medieval king, being unfit to rule is not a problem. Advisors were for ruling; Royalty were for being inbred nutjobs. Not being a complete nutjob was a plus, not an expectation.
IIRC, there was an actually retarded king who liked wedging his ass in a wastebasket and rolling around, and he ruled for over ten years.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 20, 2019, 12:23:29 pm

Remember, intrigue is less about the whats, and more about the whys, hows, and internal politics that get exposed at the edges.


The reminder I set, implies a king that is insecure about himself and his choices, that is afraid of the scorn and refusal of the baron (and also, the implication that the baron CAN make such a refusal, and have it stick!)  EG-- A *WEAK* king.

It implies a divided house of nobles, which then then get them all looking at where the faction lines are.  If there weren't any before, there soon will be.


In order to avert this political disaster, the king will be FORCED into a position he would otherwise not normally take, in order to quash this kind of movement in his court-- such as openly embracing being the receiver for high powered horsey love, with open dealings with the baron that refusal is not an option.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on December 20, 2019, 12:27:41 pm

Keep in mind that "medieval" covers a pretty big area, both in time and in geography, and therefore contradictory statements can both be true.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on December 20, 2019, 12:50:13 pm

Quite right-- Also remember that politics extends outside of the king's reach of ultimate power and authority.

How OTHER monarchs view him, has very real, and not-easily-fixed consequences for him.  (Take for instance, if one of his political allies is VERY "Conservatively chaste" and is a staunch believer in more 'victorian' type sexual mores, the notion of king horse-fucker being her political ally would be apalling! It could destroy essentially alliances that hold off foreign invaders, and other sources of great consternation for the king!)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on December 20, 2019, 07:01:27 pm

My players are idiots.

They're tracking a kidnapper that mutilates victims, removing their body parts he deems 'imperfect.'

They track him down to his girlfriend's place, a vampiress noblewoman.

They decide to wait until he's there before they attack.

The vampiress would have been a big challenge for them. Having him support her in combat is almost guaranteed failure for them.

Ah well, looks like some the party are gonna be dominated, drained and locked in a big cage for later use.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 20, 2019, 09:32:21 pm

Do they have much evidence that the guy is more dangerous than some commoner?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 21, 2019, 07:30:36 am

If it hasn't happened yet, you could maybe have the vampiress have a meal, a pretty noisy meal, to force the good party members to fight her before the other guy gets there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 21, 2019, 08:19:56 am

Opinion poll: Does "Sorc", the abbreviation of the Sorcerer player class, rhyme with "cork"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 21, 2019, 08:21:25 am

Yeah. Otherwise you'll have spellcasters getting lorst in the sorc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on December 21, 2019, 08:38:49 am

No, it rhymes with Orc. B)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 21, 2019, 08:42:28 am

I pronounce it as 'source', primarily because it makes a pun in Finnish ('sorsa' is a mallard, so your character is a waterfowl).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 21, 2019, 09:36:29 am

Sorc must be pronounced Sork, because sork is Swedish for vole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vole) (link for other non-english natives)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on December 21, 2019, 11:33:02 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 20, 2019, 09:32:21 pm

Do they have much evidence that the guy is more dangerous than some commoner?

Yep, I took a Lampadarius Kyton (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lampadarius), gave it the Monk template (https://aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=Monk), and introduced it at the very start of the scenario. They fought him, learning about his permanent 20% concealment, his 75% damage taken from weapons and spells, his spell resistance, and his special Strength ability damage attack. After his minions were destroyed, he used his shadowstep ability to teleport away and escape.

For a team of six 3rd level characters, it's a tough but beatable CR 6 boss with a bunch of high defenses. Unfortunately, the vampiress is a CR 5 encounter herself, with an at-will dominate against humanoids. Between the two creatures and their abilities, it's unlikely that the group can beat both at once.

They knew the kidnapper would visit the vampiress, had a full day to prepare, and spent the entire time holding in character arguments instead. Despite knowing they'd be fighting a vampire, nobody tried to learn more about defending against them either.

Well, time for actions to have consequences.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on December 21, 2019, 11:46:19 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 21, 2019, 11:33:02 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 20, 2019, 09:32:21 pm

Do they have much evidence that the guy is more dangerous than some commoner?

Yep, I took a Lampadarius Kyton (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lampadarius), gave it the Monk template (https://aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=Monk), and introduced it at the very start of the scenario. They fought him, learning about his permanent 20% concealment, his 75% damage taken from weapons and spells, his spell resistance, and his special Strength ability damage attack. After his minions were destroyed, he used his shadowstep ability to teleport away and escape.

For a team of six 3rd level characters, it's a tough but beatable CR 6 boss with a bunch of high defenses. Unfortunately, the vampiress is a CR 5 encounter herself, with an at-will dominate against humanoids. Between the two creatures and their abilities, it's unlikely that the group can beat both at once.

They knew the kidnapper would visit the vampiress, had a full day to prepare, and spent the entire time holding in character arguments instead. Despite knowing they'd be fighting a vampire, nobody tried to learn more about defending against them either.

Well, time for actions to have consequences.

If they didn't learn more about vampires, you can make her completely different from vanilla vampires.
As soon as they show up, she can realize they're hostile through her emotion sense, and then immediately fill them with fear through her other emotion powers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 21, 2019, 11:57:48 am

Quote from: Jimmy on December 21, 2019, 11:33:02 am

Kyton (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lampadarius)

Oh, a cenobite.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 22, 2019, 10:10:49 am

Wizard vs monster with an attack that puts people in its mouth: use Prestidigitation to make your clothing taste extremely bitter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 29, 2019, 09:10:52 pm

I'm watching Smoking Aces, but there are a lot of stories about several groups of bounty hunters, hitmen, thieves, or whatever going after the same target, and it's not only a race, but usually devolves into combat (especially when some are protecting the target, some want to take it, some want to destroy it, etc.). Think of a more complicated Ocean's 12 with less Deus Ex Machina. They're interesting stories, and would make for a great session (maybe 2 with planning), and be a good change of pace. It fits best with Shadowrun or other heist games, but would probably work with most systems.

I assume you'd introduce the idea as "It's a (semi?) public bounty, so you probably won't be the only one going after it." The players know there are other groups (you said probably, but they know how coincidence works), but probably don't know who they are or how they're going after the target. I assume you'd also want to have the target being moved, or security being changed, or something to artificially create a time window to force all of the groups together.

But how would you set it up? You want enough groups that the players will run into one or two groups no matter how they plan on going after the target, and other groups will run into each other (also causing complications), but you also don't want to encourage too much collateral damage. Also, personal choice, but I prefer to have the entire thing set up before the players make any decisions. It's more entertaining to have a series of potential events and twists set up and see how the players interact with them. It also lets the players feel like what they do matters, because they're the ones telling the story.

Edited to add: Stealth missions are so much more fun when someone else goes loud at a time/place that you can't predict.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on December 30, 2019, 03:05:15 am

For me, I'd start by defining the quest objective.

Option 1: Fetch quest. Go to point A, get target B, return to point C.

Option 2: Escort quest. Go from point A, with target B, to point C.

Option 3: Gather quest. Go to point A_n, find B_n targets, return to point C.

Next, brainstorm ideas for challenges within these stages.

Challenge 1: Combat

Challenge 2: Puzzle

Challenge 3: Stealth

Challenge 4: Social

Finally, mix and match to get a game.

Scenario: Option 3, Challenge 1, 3 and 4.

The Mines of Mordenkainen have been overrun by murderous molemen! The local baron is offering a bounty for clearing the mine and returning with proof. Defeat the molemen and bring their heads to the baron. Beware, for multiple mercenary teams have taken the same job, and they'll be quite happy to rob you of your proof should you be careless!

Challenges: Combat (molemen, mercenaries), Stealth (steal molemen heads from other teams or steal back heads stolen from your team), Social (ally with mercenaries or negotiate truce)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on December 30, 2019, 03:40:56 am

Depends how complex you want to do it.  I think I'd do a wide node-based adventure (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/7949/roleplaying-games/node-based-scenario-design-part-1-the-plotted-approach) divided into some kind of player-unknown "turn" mechanic.

Like, figure out an org chart first, who's the target and what resources does he have to stay alive, what are the weak points in there  Maybe he's got an estranged ex-wife? Maybe his security detail is contractors and one could infiltrate it, pull strings to get yourself onto his detail?  What places does he go to, what's his daily routine, where does he go when he knows someone's on him?  Who wants him alive, who wants him dead, what resources will he use to accomplish his goals and where are they/how does he  access them?  Then you can do the same with a couple rival bounty hunters.

Once you've got that figured out you can determine a few angles for the players to enter the story.  You've got locations, some secret and some obvious, and you can roughly outline those nodes of the adventure, and then give the players the opportunity to pick one as their initial line of investigation.  A top layer, which the players know about initially and contains clues leading to the second layer, which contains clues and tools the players can use to penetrate the targets web of protection, and then the bottom layer, which contains the places and situations where the players can actually take out the target.

And when the players hit their first node, you might look at the rivals you have and select a node based on what they're good at, or select randomly, or just adjudicate what will be the most interesting.  Maybe that puts them in the PCs' way, or maybe they just find evidence of the rivals' intrusion.  Depending on what the PCs did, they might catch the attention of rivals or the bounty's security resources, and you work out what that means and put it in play in the next session.  e.g. If the players are being slow, maybe a rival gets to their node first and destroys the evidence behind them.  Instead, the clues in that node point towards the rival, so the players can get the clues they were looking for.  Maybe there's an ambush for them, or a rival tips off the police that they're breaking in.

There's so many moving parts to an Oceans Eleven type thing that I'd say the most important thing is to keep it loose and not over-prep.  There's a 100% chance that the players are gonna do weird shit, and the more detailed your prepwork is, the more likely it's gonna end up in the dumpster.  That's why I think you should start with the target's organization and resources, and likewise the rivals'.  That stuff will always be useful and if you know what it is ahead of time you can just move the stuff around in response to what players do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 30, 2019, 10:51:59 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 30, 2019, 03:40:56 am

That's why I think you should start with the target's organization and resources, and likewise the rivals'.  That stuff will always be useful and if you know what it is ahead of time you can just move the stuff around in response to what players do.

Yeah, this sounds good. I'll have to read the node thingy. For turns, I have done well with just using time before. (I should get around to telling the story of the Security Officer the PCs needed to get information from, preferably quietly). It's better to cut back on making detailed content than content altogether, and knowing what events will happen is more useful than stats, in my experience.

I'm not too worried about stuff ending up unused; I'll always need another opponent or a description of the interior of a building. The best part of a dumpster full of unused ideas is mining that dumpster later. I think I've only had 2 out of 12 missions where they avoided the stuff I've prepped almost entirely, and that was because I prepped very little of what will happen and where/when. I just need to have stuff for them to interact with no matter which direction they come from.

On stuff that isn't related to the target and whatever security there is (rambly train of thought): For the other groups/people I was thinking about a theme/MO for their group, how many there are, how good they are, what they're good/bad at, and other groups they have more of a friendly competition thing with or have a "kill on sight" thing going with. Probably a "team" of 1 with good skills, but who can be pretty easily overcome with numbers/force, and a group the size of or 1 larger than the players' group who are idiots and will probably end up drawing too much attention if they survive long and already have a lot of enemies. Both of those present potentially interesting challenges to the players, and which the players would benefit most from knowing about ahead of time. Also, the movie used both (somewhat badly), which means I at least qualify to write a mediocre action movie (which is about the level I'm shooting for). That, or we have cliches for a reason. The same reason a tall building means a helicopter will show up, which I predicted in the movie, even though it didn't matter to the movie.

Allowing the players to learn about some but not all of the groups in advance if they put their prep time into that would be interesting. It means they can try to learn enough that they can set them against each other, or prepare for their strengths weaknesses. That also means that the opponents have to be able to be dealt with without knowing about them ahead of time, because they can't know about everyone. It sets good limits for me. I should add "how can the players find out about this group ahead of time" to that list in the previous paragraph.

I also want the groups to interact with each other, even if they PCs aren't present or otherwise encouraging it. Setting up checkpoints/funnels that force the groups together would work, if I know when the groups will hit each checkpoint. Scheduling when each group will arrive, which direction they'll go, what stops they'll make (if any), and about how long it will take them to reach the goal if nobody interferes should be enough. "Arrive at 8, go in the front door, get by the front desk and to the secure elevator at 8:30, reach the final security zone at 8:35" is plenty, especially if I know when the elevators will be shut down, how long any extra delay at the front desk will take, and what other groups will be in those spots at what times.

Whatever the facility is, will matter a lot. The number of groups and their variety of MOs means the players should interact with at least one beyond the guards and target, especially with funnels/checkpoints. So making sure something happens to the groups who are there will keep things interesting, and the players will end up walking into one of the pre-scripted events. Continuing the example from before, knowing the elevators will be shut down at 8:40 means the group that talked the front desk into letting them use the security elevators as a shortcut will get screwed if there is a delay, and have to take the stairs and possibly run into other groups. Again, I want quantity, not quality because I'm expecting 75% to not get noticed by the players. Stuff like car wrecks stopping traffic, hotel guests setting off a smoke detector making popcorn, and security taking an unexpected break because they should *not* have eaten that last night are easy to write down, and moderately interesting for the players to come across.

Knowing how competent and how many the target's security (I'm assuming there are separate facility and target's security groups, so they can interact) is good for dealing with the PCs not showing up first. If someone else gets there first, the target's security should have reduced forces, but be on higher alert. Separating the 2 security forces also means one can be infiltrated without the other being bypassed completely.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2020, 06:17:31 am

So... Magic Missile. Curious spell, isn't it? What with apparently using just the one damage roll for every dart, meaning that just that little d4 can be responsible for a damage variance of up to 33 points.

Which, coincidentally, means that the evocation specialist's level 10 ability can add a potential 55 damage to a target.


Now, sure, those big numbers are just if you use a 9th level slot to cast Magic Missile, and 9th level has some other really big fun stuff that you'd probably rather be casting... But even as a 1st level spell, that's a bonus +15 damage, no save, no attack roll. Not too shabby.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 08, 2020, 07:43:25 am

It's New Gamemaster Month (https://newgamemastermonth.com/), apparently. I'm not sure the four options would be great for a new GM but maybe someone can get some use out of it.

---

So long, FFG. I had fun with one of your Star Wars things. I harbored some amount of interest in Genesys but, since you've probably fired all of the designers already, I'll just wait until I see a cheap copy on the secondary market.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 08, 2020, 09:25:54 am

FFG went out of business?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 08, 2020, 09:29:15 am

Not quite. They shuttered FFI, the digital game division. Last I heard, they also fired the RPG people and some office staff. The board game division will probably be fine, possibly owing partly to their owner, Asmodee.

Speculation at the moment is that any future RPG work will be wholly done by freelancers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 08, 2020, 01:09:07 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 08, 2020, 09:29:15 am

Not quite. They shuttered FFI, the digital game division. Last I heard, they also fired the RPG people and some office staff. The board game division will probably be fine, possibly owing partly to their owner, Asmodee.

Speculation at the moment is that any future RPG work will be wholly done by freelancers.

Ah, the old "fire competent people, and rehire them as contractors to save money on benefits" manuever. Probably more effective with the rates RPG freelancers are offered (and only sometimes paid).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 09, 2020, 06:45:26 pm

That's assuming they intend to continue in this market at all; they may not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 09, 2020, 07:08:33 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 08, 2020, 06:17:31 am

So... Magic Missile. Curious spell, isn't it? What with apparently using just the one damage roll for every dart, meaning that just that little d4 can be responsible for a damage variance of up to 33 points.

Which, coincidentally, means that the evocation specialist's level 10 ability can add a potential 55 damage to a target.


Now, sure, those big numbers are just if you use a 9th level slot to cast Magic Missile, and 9th level has some other really big fun stuff that you'd probably rather be casting... But even as a 1st level spell, that's a bonus +15 damage, no save, no attack roll. Not too shabby.

Dunno about 5th edition but also notable was Magic Missile did force damage.  Force damage is almost never resisted (unlike say fire damage) and IIRC force damage could hit incorporeal enemies.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on January 09, 2020, 07:18:22 pm

Yeah, that's still a thing. Nice reliable spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 09, 2020, 07:24:32 pm

It's an unimpressive spell at first glance, but it's a good, reliable back pocket spell. I remember reading a 3.5 campaign log where wands of magic missile were invaluable in taking down a high AC boss fight because basically everything else bounced off it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 09, 2020, 07:47:38 pm

The best use of magic missile wands is that greentext about testing a barrel of defective wands.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 10, 2020, 08:39:48 am

Quote from: Cruxador on January 09, 2020, 06:45:26 pm

That's assuming they intend to continue in this market at all; they may not.

Star Wars are fairly profitable for them. Although, if Disney has altered their deal or taken away the rights, that's different.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 10, 2020, 08:49:51 am

The Mouse giveth, and the Mouse taketh away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 10, 2020, 09:01:50 am

Quote from: Iduno on January 10, 2020, 08:39:48 am

Quote from: Cruxador on January 09, 2020, 06:45:26 pm

That's assuming they intend to continue in this market at all; they may not.

Star Wars are fairly profitable for them. Although, if Disney has altered their deal or taken away the rights, that's different.

Let's pray they don't alter it vader father farther.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on January 11, 2020, 09:07:51 pm

I'm joining a Pathfinder game! And I think I'll be able to reasonably make it to most sessions! And I know enough about various d20 games that I can probably intuit most of the rules! And it doesn't seem like there's going to be a lot of super awkward "serious" roleplay!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 12, 2020, 03:23:21 am

Congrats! I've been Pathfinding for several years now, and having a blast. You doing their new 2nd edition or the classic "3.75" 1st edition Pathfinder?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 12, 2020, 04:18:58 am

Pathfinder is the new fad in my group, half the games are using it now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 12, 2020, 04:21:42 am

They've found the path

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on January 12, 2020, 04:28:19 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 12, 2020, 03:23:21 am

Congrats! I've been Pathfinding for several years now, and having a blast. You doing their new 2nd edition or the classic "3.75" 1st edition Pathfinder?

It is 1e, and mostly vanilla with exceptions as the GM sees fit. My only concern is that from the session I listened in on, it seemed like the module is a bit too easy for 5 * level 3 players, but we'll see.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on January 12, 2020, 06:25:16 pm

Many modules are designed for a 15 point buy 4 man team, so if you're exceeding this baseline, it can be fairly simple. Especially if you've got a group talented at optimizing their characters.

For example, my group last Friday night demolished their encounters. They've got a 5 man team at 20 point buy, all level 3 with standard WBL. First they fought a CR 3 animated object, followed by a CR 4 otyugh, followed by a CR 5 gibbering mouther backed up by a CR 1 darkmantle and CR 2 choker. They handled the whole series without trouble. Heck, the cleric rolled a 3 on her d20 for save against the gibbering mouther's confusion and still passed the DC 13 save.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 12, 2020, 09:32:24 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on January 12, 2020, 06:25:16 pm

Many modules are designed for a 15 point buy 4 man team, so if you're exceeding this baseline, it can be fairly simple. Especially if you've got a group talented at optimizing their characters.

Man, I'm in a game where there's six of us at 25 pb and using optional rules and third party content that increase power level further and yesterday we still wound up with two PCs going below 0 hp and one (not entirely by coincidence, mine) would have died entirely if not for an astounding and entirely un-earned but of luck. And although this was a particularly spectacular session, it was by no means the first time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 14, 2020, 07:32:17 am

Getting geared up for a Shadowrun interlude while DnD is on hiatus. I'm GMing, which I've never done before. I've played a handful of times and it's pretty much the only game that I've read the novels of.

Any advice for GMing? The players are new to SR and newish to gaming (6 months experience each in games)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 14, 2020, 09:24:07 am

Quote from: delphonso on January 14, 2020, 07:32:17 am

Getting geared up for a Shadowrun interlude while DnD is on hiatus. I'm GMing, which I've never done before. I've played a handful of times and it's pretty much the only game that I've read the novels of.

Any advice for GMing? The players are new to SR and newish to gaming (6 months experience each in games)

Shadowrun is probably the easiest system to learn to GM, because each story is entirely encapsulated. You just have a few rules you need to know. It also helps that you know the players will go off whatever rails you set for them, but still try to complete the mission.

For a single session, I'd start with showing an interesting location (Ork Underground, plastic jungles, The borders in Denver, etc.) and some sort of story (rescuing someone who was kidnapped, making sure a singer makes it to their concert, stopping a neighborhood from being demolished for a new corp facility, rip off an action movie, etc.). Find a way that they mesh, and what special things the location changes (low lighting in the Ork Underground, legality issues at borders, different languages/linguasofts needed, etc.). Once you know where they're going and why, you can start setting up the actual run.

What kind of security would make sense in a perfect world for everywhere they might go because they'll start a fight somewhere they shouldn't need to, why don't they have that kind of security (being too cheap, the security they have is old, the security is only partially installed, whoever set it up made mistakes), and the general attitude of the security forces (overconfident, bored, power-mad but miss things). The second part there is where you can tailor the difficulty to the party. You also want to know where all of the entrances are, and where new entrances might get made. How do people who work there normally get in?

Pay special attention to what spells the mage has, and what drones the rigger has. A lightning bolt is more effective against drones and computers, but otherwise doesn't do anything interesting. Invisibility (and is it the invis that works against both cameras and people, or just people) and levitation means you have to know those rules, and what that will allow them to get around. Don't let the mage solve everyone's problems. The rigger might be based on driving fast, stealth surveillance with small drones, or have a small army that can throw down a lot of damage once they're going loud. Try to make sure one scene works for them. Adepts probably have some interesting powers like wall-running or face sculpting, so plan for a scene that lets them do those things. Also, don't plan anything completely. Your players will think of things you didn't, and will just bypass things you planned. Having twice as many things that are half as planned out means more of your work gets used.

Expect combat to be deadly. Depending on edition, 90% of characters can be 2-shot or take down an opponent in 2 shots. Ambushes means one side gets their shots before the other side can defend, so those fights will be very one-sided.

If you know what characters and how many you'll have, we can give more specific advice.


Edit: To make combat less deadly towards the PCs, you will want to make sure opponents are always slightly less powerful than the PCs. I usually ran with 1+ die advantage in favor of PCs, because they need to win every time, where enemies only need to win once. Also, what edition are you running? I'm mostly experienced with 4e, but know some 3e, and enough 5e to know why I don't play it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 14, 2020, 10:28:31 am

Shadowrun character creation (and equipping of characters) can be a bit overwhelming, don't be afraid to suggest your players use the pre-rolled characters of the rulebook (if there are any) if they want to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 14, 2020, 10:44:59 am

Quote from: scriver on January 14, 2020, 10:28:31 am

Shadowrun character creation (and equipping of characters) can be a bit overwhelming, don't be afraid to suggest your players use the pre-rolled characters of the rulebook (if there are any) if they want to.

You...haven't looked at the pre-gen characters, have you? In most systems, and definitely in Shadowrun, pre-gen characters are created in order to beta test the game. They're printed as ideas of what you can be, but the rules have changed several times since they were created, and they are usually very limited in scope (including missing skills or equipment that they would need to do their job).

Generating your own, or grabbing them off Dumpshock or whatever might work, but you probably don't want to use the pre-gens for PCs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 16, 2020, 01:53:04 am

Two players in 5e. An adept (focused mostly on mobility and infiltration) and a rigger (focused on recon and using drones to give debuffs to enemies).

I'm setting it in our local area, will take some published stuff to appropriate.

I'm doing an easy early adventure to explain the mechanics for everything as best I can. Not looking forward to keeping track of debuffs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 16, 2020, 03:51:24 am

So... As a question of faith...

Would a gnome be gnostic or gnon-denominational?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 16, 2020, 07:49:23 am

That would depend on the gnome's level of metaphysical awaregness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 16, 2020, 09:31:40 am

Likely gnegligible or gnearly ignfignite

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 16, 2020, 09:33:43 am

Quote from: delphonso on January 16, 2020, 01:53:04 am

Two players in 5e. An adept (focused mostly on mobility and infiltration) and a rigger (focused on recon and using drones to give debuffs to enemies).

I'm setting it in our local area, will take some published stuff to appropriate.

I'm doing an easy early adventure to explain the mechanics for everything as best I can. Not looking forward to keeping track of debuffs.

Yeah, 4e is easier to teach and GM, and also doesn't have weird math that makes a sniper rifle the correct thing to carry into close combat while a small pistol is just as effective as a sniper rifle at range. 5e had some good ideas, then just took any ideas anyone had and added them, even if they were stupid or 3 other people already nerfed the same thing. I don't remember debuffs, but that sounds about right.

Sounds like you want a simple sneaking mission, probably minimal combat. Maybe just have them sneak into a warehouse to take out the boss, bonus if they don't hurt anyone else, and extra bonus if they make it look like an accident/suicide that can't be pinned on any of the workers. It's a super-simple thing, but would benefit from recon (to know what's all in the warehouse) and sneaking.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 16, 2020, 10:11:41 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on January 16, 2020, 07:49:23 am

That would depend on the gnome's level of metaphysical awaregness.

Gnome's not obviously metaphysical, eh?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 16, 2020, 11:47:15 am

Cheers, Iduno. Partly we are doing Shadowrun because one of our players only solve problems with violence and escalation and we want a game that's not condusive to that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 16, 2020, 12:05:20 pm

Quote from: delphonso on January 16, 2020, 11:47:15 am

Cheers, Iduno. Partly we are doing Shadowrun because one of our players only solve problems with violence and escalation and we want a game that's not condusive to that.

Directed violence is a great way to deal with that.

Plus, creating a funhouse with stuff in a lowest-bidder warehouse is much better than just hitting some goblins with sticks. Janky railings, forklifts that have a delay before they stop, automation that doesn't check for people...

Edit: OSHA's top 10 cited violations, to get those creative juices flowing. Sprinkle in a few of your own ideas for dangers in a warehouse, and you're off to the races.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://www.safetyandhealthmagazine.com/ext/resources/images/2019/12-dec/top10/serious.pngflowing/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on January 18, 2020, 02:31:59 pm

The above image is broken, here's a working version.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://www.safetyandhealthmagazine.com/ext/resources/images/2019/12-dec/top10/serious.png)

Also, my current Pathfinder campaign is nearly over, so I'm getting ready for my next character. I think I'll play a half-orc brawler follower of Gorum with the animal companion archetype.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/dz8uzEh.png)
This is the way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on January 18, 2020, 08:49:12 pm

Currently playing my Pathfinder game. It's fun, but I'm certain this would be like 300% better if it were in person and not online. Between Discord glitches, slow computers, poor mics and Roll20 issues, the pace of play is absolutely glacial.

I'm just having a blast finally playing a PNP game with a group that's actually a good fit for once.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 19, 2020, 12:01:41 am

I've had good success with Fantasy Flight Star Wars and Genesys. It's pretty light on rules and doesn't have much for modifiers. Crunchy games suffer when not being in person anf Roll20 only helps so much.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 19, 2020, 08:32:57 am

So I'll be running a 5e game set primarily in an orcish realm sometime in the near future and I was wanting to brainstorm ideas.

Basic premise is that orcs who were cast out of society for being physically weak, cowardly or treacherous have been forming their own society in the Underdark and conspiring against the surface dwelling orcs as part of a plan to have Shargaas, the orc god of darkness, undead and generally being a murderous thieving asshole usurp Gruumsh as the patron god of orcs.

BBEG is an orcish vampire who's been slowly uniting the outcasts and plotting to bring about an event I'm referring to as the 'Breath of Shargass,' a quasi-mystical volcanic eruption that will spew enough ash into the sky to cause a prolonged period of darkness that gradually spreads across the realm and allow the living and undead forces of the outcasts to take over the surface orc society and perform ritual desecration of Gruumsh's places of worship.

Where I'm getting stuck is for ideas on the steps that need to be taken to trigger the eruption. I want to have the outcasts attack a few settlements in nighttime raids, but I also want those raids to be important to their goals rather than just supply raids or vengeful attacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 19, 2020, 08:43:21 am

These settlements keep in their temples everburning braziers as a symbol of [whatever god's] power. These actually contain a piece of the heart of an undying fire spirit/elemental lord/titan (ie a mythical personalisation of the volcano) who was incapacitated in a forgotten time long ago. Returning them to the titans body will cause it to awaken again (ie returning them to the volcano will cause it to become active again) or perhaps uniting all the pieces of the heart will grant you control over the titan.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 19, 2020, 08:47:36 am

A bit more Orkish option might be taking people as cattle for a blood sacrifice which can (somehow) cause a volcano to erupt. More difficult to interrupt, but less interesting than sciver's recommendation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 19, 2020, 08:56:18 am

Combine them! The heart needs blood to pump.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 20, 2020, 11:40:48 am

I might be able to do something with those ideas.

I could add a volcano as being a place where Gruumsh fought and killed/imprisoned something powerful, like another god or a fiend of some kind Typhon style, then have a few holy trinkets scattered about in the hands of chieftains and priests that can be used to unleash it. Have the clergy of Shargaas sacrifice captured clerics of the other orc gods to corrupt the artefacts and reconsecrate them to Shargaas and then awaken the volcano with them.

EDIT: Had some rambling thoughts I wanted to write down.

What if in ages long past Gruumsh smote Shargaas when he was a more normal orc god and buried him deep underground (not literally mind you) where he rose again as a god of darkness. His blood taints the Underdark, infusing things that live there with a shred of his malevolent intent. Bats swarm like piranhas, shadows dance in the recesses of caves, ghouls feast on the bodies of those who fall into the depths, foul things crawl from fetid subterranean rivers to prey upon the unwary on dark nights and the oldest of trees in the land above have roots that drink the tainted waters of the deep, turning them into foul and cruel things.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 20, 2020, 03:41:58 pm

My Pathfinder character died for the third time. We've been using Reincarnate (with an extended d% list) for rezzing, and I keep getting smaller: I started as human, then elf, then dwarf, and now ratfolk. The next incarnation will probably be a kobold, but then the list doesn't have anything smaller, so I don't know what will happen then. Further list extension into Tiny creatures? Are there even any Tiny humanoids?

Also, I started as male, but all three of the reincarnations have been physically female. As if species dysphoria wasn't hard enough to roleplay...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 20, 2020, 04:28:12 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on January 20, 2020, 03:41:58 pm

Further list extension into Tiny creatures? Are there even any Tiny humanoids?

Purple Duck has your back (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/130263/Purple-Duck-Storeroom-Tiny-Monstrous-Humanoids) assuming 3rd party is okay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2020, 04:05:04 am

Ahh, that just reminded me of the Goblin race splatbook for Shadow of the Demon Lord... Where, given a couple (un?)lucky rolls, you would end up with a character whose height was measured in negative inches.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 21, 2020, 11:20:51 am

Quote from: Kagus on January 21, 2020, 04:05:04 am

Ahh, that just reminded me of the Goblin race splatbook for Shadow of the Demon Lord... Where, given a couple (un?)lucky rolls, you would end up with a character whose height was measured in negative inches.

That sounds close to the chargen system from FATAL. That's not a compliment, if that needs to be explained.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 21, 2020, 11:29:16 am

SotDL also has a fascination with poop and lore that renders some of its player races entirely too neurotic/paranoid/racist to function.

But beyond that, it's entirely too functional to be FATAL.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on January 21, 2020, 07:09:20 pm

I thought goblins were one of the default races. How did they get a splatbook?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2020, 03:48:02 am

All the races have expansions that provide additional lore, background, and character generation options.

For goblins, it includes new subraces of goblins, including ones that are smaller/larger than the normal, generic goblin size. This allows for an age/subrace/random height adjustment combination that results in sub-zero values, for shits and giggles.

The one for dwarves provides lore that further drives them into a pigeonhole of complete xenophobia and misanthropy, to the point where you basically need to just ignore it if you want a dwarf adventurer to function in any capacity at all beyond "Screw you guys, I'm going home".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 22, 2020, 03:51:38 am

Well, maybe not;

Could just as well be "Hurry up and get eaten by monsters, so I can take your stuff, THEN go home."

That would still satisfy the xenophobia and misanthropy (Does not trust the other party members, and would rather they be dead soon. Like, real soon.) while allowing them to go on the quest (By going on the quest with these sacks of skin, I will be there when they die, so I can take their stuff from them.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2020, 04:10:04 am

Sure, but that would kind of involve never sticking your neck out for them either, like getting into any fight they encounter (they might use your distraction as an opportunity to stab you in the back!), and if you ever learn to trust them beyond that level then you get to upgrade to trying to sell them some prime swamplands down in Florida.

"The angry Nigerian prince stalking our party" sounds fun, but having to RP that can be really irritating.


Also their stuff isn't dwarven, and as we all know; if it ain't dwarven, it's crrrap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2020, 04:12:20 am

I guess it's designed around an All Dwarf Party for some reason?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2020, 04:20:49 am

Considering they're the only race to get true darkvision in a game about shadows and darkness, there's a fragment of logic there!

Unfortunately, such a party would likely tear themselves to shreds the moment any sort of gold reward was to be split between them; unless everyone had already signed absolutely ironclad contracts with one another that said they wouldn't.


The race that's entirely composed of "bred-and-built for war bloodthirsty killing machines" is actually given far more leniency in having individual personality and the chance to practice the art of not being a dick.

But for all that, I still like to introduce SotDL as "The one with a spell to make someone literally shit themselves to death".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 22, 2020, 04:27:57 am

No no no.

Take the notion of an abattoir.

A farmer has an interest in quality beef; not the blissful contentedness of the cows.

Likewise, the dwarven adventurer is interested in the quality of the loot, not the success of the party.


The success of the party is necessary to obtaining quality loot.  Much like contented cows produce superior beef.


As long as the "climax" (loot wise) has not happened yet, the dwarf will act in accordance with the furtherance of the party's objectives and goals.  HOWEVER, once that point has been crossed (and if the party is not essential to being able to escape the danger that has surely been stirred up), it becomes COMPLETELY appropriate (and even necessary) from the dwarf's perspective to "Terminate" the relationship.


With such a backdrop, dwarves would be seen as untrustworthy.  This only reinforces the xenophobia of the dwarves in return. (All other races treat them with disdain, distrust, and paranoia, wondering when the long knives will come out.)

Due to this paranoia, the dwarven adventurer must be very silver tongued, and be able to fully convince the other party members that he/she is "different", and "Oh yes-- totally cares about [saving the princess/destroying the evil/restoring the balance/whatever], and will be good till the end."

Right up until the long knives come out.


As for the "Stuff made by non-dwarves is crap" angle, this isn't entirely correct.  A proper craftsman appreciates things made outside his/her own craft, as long as they are well made, (and they cannot make them themselves).  Other races have special racial abilities that permit crafting methods beyond what a dwarf can do. (take for instance, living-wood crafted elven items, or fantastical magical items created by supernatural beings.) 

Farming adventurers would be a GREAT way to get these items, and take them home.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2020, 05:25:39 am

"Dwarfs see themeselves as masters at the forge, construction, sculpture, engineering and many other arts. They can usually tell when they encounter something made by a people other than dwarfs and waste little time in pointing out its flaws. The works of others rarely meet their approval, and almost never garners their praise, as they will always find something wrong with it, even if they have to invent it"

Now, given the context of that snippet (dwarf egos/cursed pride), one could argue that this just means they'll trash-talk everything while actually still respecting/wanting to have it.

This is of course combined with the constant thought of their ancestors watching over them, so they strive to act "honorably" in all things, lest they bring shame to their entire clan... Exactly what is "honorable" to a dwarf is a bit hazy, as they won't stoop to stealing but are apparently just fine with completely fleecing someone in a contract if the other party doesn't read the really fine print. I'm not sure where lying falls in that calculation.

"Being suspicious and untrusting means dwarfs do not enter into bargains lightly. Even among their own kind, they require more than an oath and a handshake. For any transaction that involves riches, dwarfs draw up elaborate contracts that might run dozens of pages in length, filled with convoluted language that shifts the risk to the other party while offering the dwarf the best protections. Of course, dwarfs are wise to such contractual tricks, and negotiations between dwarfs can be fierce and last several days before they can reach terms. For those unfamiliar with the way dwarfs do business, signing a contract whipped up by a dwarf is a quick way to lose one's shirt."

The "any transaction that involves riches" is a real sticker, depending on your definition of "riches". Considering the Gold Lust madness for dwarfs (which is fairly debilitating, I might add) is invoked for "any item worth 1gc or more", what does that mean for the definition of 'riches'? I suppose that does answer the question of them seeing value in things not made by dwarfs, but that is also explained as being an attachment to the rare metals and materials used to make the items, rather than any competency on the part of the crafter.


Also, in addition to being suspicious and wary of everyone, they are violently hostile towards two of the player races, specifically distrustful towards two more, and just generally disdainful to humans. Clockworks are fascinating (although they'd never admit as much), but not to be considered as thinking beings.

"Gruff, critical, and suspicious, dwarfs make few friends outside their own kind. They covet treasure but temper their greed with the certainty their ancestors are always watching. Thus, dwarfs conduct themselves with honor to avoid bringing shame to their clans."

Plus some more yadda yadda suspicious racists yadda yadda no friends yadda yadda wars started over perceived insults etc.


I dunno, I suppose one could argue that the other races are bestial and unthinking enough that "lying" isn't really a concept when dealing with them, therefore it's not dishonorable? Become meta-racist to the point where you can actually get along with people by spitting through your teeth?



Still doesn't really solve the adventuring problem though... While a farmer may venture out with the herd to find better grazing for a richer beef, he's not likely to do so if he suspects the herd might stomp on him at any moment. Better to just keep a safe distance and let them sort themselves out in that case, which means from a practical standpoint that you're gonna be kind of a shitty party member to deal with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 22, 2020, 05:40:24 am

That just means the dwarf will be "honest" about the terms of the contract;  Well concealed under numerous layers of boilerplate, jargon, legalese, and perhaps ambiguous wording.


A good backdrop to segue in a dwarven player char, would be part of a duo; A dwarf and his human "business partner", who has already negotiated a business relationship. Unlike your normal human, the human in this duo *NEEDS* to be a ruthless lawyer type.  (and thus, respectable in the eyes of the dwarf.) The two need to engage in heated "behind the scenes" banter with each other about the exact wording and legal precedents behind their contract, at fairly regular intervals, and both need to be fairly hush about it. 

The idea is that the human partner is the talent scout liason in the partnership, the dwarf is a contracted specialist with very specific contractual obligations, and the two are openly a partnership with the outwardly stated goals of enriching themselves.

The dwarf stays out of trouble with their ancestors by having the human be the deceitful one.


EG--- the highly simplified contract would have these terms as the fundemental basis for the partnership.

Dwarven specialist gets first pick of the top 2/3rds share of apportioned loot, Human associate gets bottom valued 1/3 of product. Should human inadvertantly gain unexpected valuable loot, Dwarven specialist gets first opportunity to purchase at 2/3rds price before human may sell on open market. Breach of contract punishble by [some awful thing.]

Human accepts all duties, obligations, and responsibilites associated with dealing with outside interests to the contract, and assumes all labors, duties, and legal consequences for their conduct. Dwarven partner does not accept liability for any negative outcome to any 3rd party human may bring in.


The human is operating on the "long tail" business model;  Even the cast-offs of a good campaign are higher value than the normal stuff at your general goods store, and thus good mercantile fodder. Dwarf is interested in the cream-of-the-crop items, as payment for specialist services.



Naturally, this will lead to... "Hilarious situations"  should the party gain possession of the McGuffin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2020, 05:55:40 am

That's very a lot of hoops to jump through in order to play one of the default races as a functional member of the party.
Most people will go the vastly easier way of either ignoring the lore and playing them more fantasy-generic or else use the lore to justify being toxic and maybe player-killy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 22, 2020, 06:06:37 am

True enough, but challenge is part of the fun, as long as you can work out a functional formula, and hash it out with your DM.

Abstracting some of the hard-line bullheadedness of the relationship through totally unfair dice rolls and getting agreed upon methods for the DM to instruct the player on how to have the characters interact with each other at various times, could make it more interesting.

MurderHobo dwarf needs to get the party to sign a contract that agrees to being murdered in order to work, cannon-wise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 22, 2020, 12:10:04 pm

So one of the players in my upcoming game is going to be playing a sapient cat, most likely a bard but that detail isn't important.

The important thing is that so far the concept involves the player and PC not knowing why they're a cat with human level intelligence and the ability to talk. They have no recollection of being human, cursed, awakened or anything else that would make them able to talk. All they know is that they're a talking cat, with all the existential questions that brings about.

So my job of course is working out what the hell they were so it can get answered some day. Kitten dipped in magical garbage that gained the power of speech? Human cursed into feline form with amnesia?


Personally I'm currently leaning towards them having been a sphinx that failed in their duty as a sacred guardian due to some personal failing and was cast down into the form of a 'normal' cat and stripped of most of their memories as punishment. Breaking the divine curse, either through very powerful magic or by seeking atonement, would allow them to regain their true form if they desire it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 22, 2020, 12:14:13 pm

magically awakened kitten, as part of ethically dubious experiment

That gets my vote.  Newborn kittens cannot see or hear. Only smell, taste, and touch.  They would not be capable of comprehending the magic being worked on them.

(Or go full M Night Shamalan--  Cat-man-Du learns about JUST SUCH AN EXPERIMENT, and THINKS that is where he came from, while actually indeed being a cast down sphinx. Go for Triple Jeopardy by having that ethically dubious experiment be intrinsically related to their failure.  EG, the magic used is sealed away and protected, but was cunningly stolen on their watch.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Imic on January 22, 2020, 02:58:51 pm

Perhaps some Cats just talk. Perhaps there’s an underground network of long-lived talking Cats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on January 22, 2020, 03:04:22 pm

Perhaps its like the various talking animals of Unseen University from the Discworld, and the cat just got infected with magic radiation from a wizard school/university/tower that enabled them to talk/ do magic.
They were a travelling stray, so by the time the magic radiation from the food they'd scavenged sets in, having not had human intelligence at the time, they'd forgotten all about the tower, and just know that they once had normal cat intelligence, and now have more.
With backstories like this though, I think Wild Mage sorcerer makes more sense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 22, 2020, 03:05:51 pm

The cat was starving. Its owner hadn't fed it all night and it was getting desperate. It heard things. Things it couldn't understand but did. It accepted the deal that it was presented with.

And that's where the GoO warlock kitty came from. The GoO patron has regretted it ever since.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 22, 2020, 03:57:34 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 22, 2020, 03:05:51 pm

The cat was starving. Its owner hadn't fed it all night and it was getting desperate. It heard things. Things it couldn't understand but did. It accepted the deal that it was presented with.

And that's where the GoO warlock kitty came from. The GoO patron has regretted it ever since.

If it works for DC comics...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on January 22, 2020, 04:00:38 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 22, 2020, 03:57:34 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 22, 2020, 03:05:51 pm

The cat was starving. Its owner hadn't fed it all night and it was getting desperate. It heard things. Things it couldn't understand but did. It accepted the deal that it was presented with.

And that's where the GoO warlock kitty came from. The GoO patron has regretted it ever since.

If it works for DC comics...

So, you are saying Dex-Starr, but as a warlock? I think Fiend would make more sense as a Red Lantern anologue.
Or maybe some kind of Barbarian would be even better. Zealot, maybe?

Also, why would the GoO patron regret it? Cats and humans are about the same intelligence to a GOO's perspective.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2020, 04:35:36 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on January 22, 2020, 04:00:38 pm

Also, why would the GoO patron regret it? Cats and humans are about the same intelligence to a GOO's perspective.

In that case, you may as well have a non-sapient cat warlock.
Though cha-based casting isn't great for beasts. Why wouldn't you go for a wis caster instead?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 22, 2020, 04:42:06 pm

Quote from: Imic on January 22, 2020, 02:58:51 pm

Perhaps some Cats just talk. Perhaps there’s an underground network of long-lived talking Cats.

All cats talk. What makes us think we're interesting enough to converse with?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 22, 2020, 04:52:18 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on January 22, 2020, 04:00:38 pm

So, you are saying Dex-Starr, but as a warlock? I think Fiend would make more sense as a Red Lantern anologue.
Or maybe some kind of Barbarian would be even better. Zealot, maybe?

Also, why would the GoO patron regret it? Cats and humans are about the same intelligence to a GOO's perspective.

I don't read comics. I just liked the idea of Cthulhu coming to regret its choice to offer patronage to a particularly annoying kitty cat.

But TIL, a cat became Red Lantern. Neat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 22, 2020, 04:54:48 pm

Maybe they're the ex-familiar of a GoO warlock, and the energies and madness they were exposed to during that servitude severed their bond and scrambled their memories?

Being spirit-in-the-form-of-a-cat would also go a ways towards explaining why a cat would be able to do extraordinary class-based things like cast spells or have big stats or get resurrected.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 22, 2020, 05:52:07 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on January 22, 2020, 04:52:18 pm

I just liked the idea of Cthulhu coming to regret its choice to offer patronage to a particularly annoying kitty cat.

(http://i.imgur.com/B5OqZ.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 27, 2020, 09:26:05 am

Quote from: delphonso on January 16, 2020, 11:47:15 am

Cheers, Iduno. Partly we are doing Shadowrun because one of our players only solve problems with violence and escalation and we want a game that's not condusive to that.

How did the run go?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on January 27, 2020, 09:45:04 am

Concerning the spell Zone of Truth:
Any sentence that starts with "You could say that" is true, unless the person you're talking to is unable to speak, as they CAN say it.
If you want to force people to be honest, just make them say "Everything I am saying is completely honest." every once in a while.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on January 27, 2020, 09:21:15 pm

We nearly had a campaign end to a potion of truth not long ago. Had to roll back the time for the sake of a rescue, and 4/6 characters are still in a bad place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 27, 2020, 10:45:10 pm

Quote from: Iduno on January 27, 2020, 09:26:05 am

How did the run go?

Surprisingly excellently. Gun jumper got really into the world before we started and did his best to role play. I had to curb his behavior a bit at the start, but he enjoyed it. Both played junkies which was fun to see them solve problems in a meth-addled way. They had to recover a prostitute being held by a rival gang.

They did it with minimal violence, playing to their strengths of convincing, maneuvering and knowing a few people. Good run and they also covered their tracks well. I'm pleasantly surprised.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 28, 2020, 03:17:43 am

But it's supposed to be supposed to be a simple job

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on January 28, 2020, 08:52:09 am

Half of the players in my old Shadowrun group (yep, all one or two of em) were pink mohawk all the time. I'd have loved a game that was mainly black trenchcoat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 28, 2020, 01:19:33 pm

Shadowrun is best with a balanced mix of humor and careful planning. Finding people who love heist movies would probably help, but also watching movies isn't a good way to meet people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 28, 2020, 01:36:08 pm

You say that, but my friend met several people (including her ex and her current boyfriend) in chat groups for movie-watchers.


In other news, it's annoying coming up with an idea for a character that you'd like to play, but fully realize would be much better off as an NPC than as a PC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 28, 2020, 04:43:07 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 28, 2020, 01:36:08 pm

You say that, but my friend met several people (including her ex and her current boyfriend) in chat groups for movie-watchers.


In other news, it's annoying coming up with an idea for a character that you'd like to play, but fully realize would be much better off as an NPC than as a PC.

Doesn't work well in a team?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 29, 2020, 05:08:09 am

No, and doesn't even work particularly well on their own.

The idea was inspired by this surprisingly SFW (https://media.oglaf.com/comic/general_supplies.jpg) Oglaf strip, and probably a bit of Carnivàle as well. A GOO Warlock merchant with a shop carriage, where his patron is an unknown entity existing within the walls of the shop. For a price that you can pay, the manager can grant you what you need. When you need it, or for what, is left as an exercise for the customer... No refunds.

Playing the bored, slightly misanthropic cashier for an eldritch force of prophecy just struck me as rather charming. It's customer service, with a bit of the occult thrown in. Book of shadows even doubles as a shop ledger for accurate bookkeeping of... Well, things that can't accurately be tracked or numbered.


Again, much better as an NPC/plot hook than as a PC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 29, 2020, 05:47:11 am

I can only see two party hats in that last panel. *shudder*

Is "what you need" just a roll on the trinkets table or something specifically designed by the GM for each player? I'd make the merchant travel on foot with a magic bag rather than a carriage, though: that way you can meet him inside a dungeon by coincidence (there are no coincidences).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 29, 2020, 05:59:43 am

I figured the trinkets table would be the easiest/best solution, just need to find a use for the trinkets in question... Although GM design is of course perfectly acceptable and welcome. While infuriatingly enigmatic, I like to imagine that the entity is in fact honest (inasmuch as it considers honesty as a concept), and that the items sold do in fact have an important usage.

And while a bag does lend itself to portability, I personally feel that it lacks a bit of the mystique of conferring with a door in the back of the carriage that doesn't reasonably lead anywhere, and getting something back from it.

But if we're meeting the fellow in a dungeon, might as well just have the door down there too.


Maybe some sort of compromise? Mirrors are always fun, or perhaps an ornate box or model house or something? Bring your own door or carpet to cover a wall and form the gateway?


EDIT: Also, in the last panel, the customer's normal hat has changed to a brighter color and now has a puff on the end. So either he traded in his old one for a party hat, or his old hat was directly partied up by the close interaction with The Manager.

EDIT2: Actually you can see the yellow party hat on a shelf in the background of panel 3. Presumably he just traded his old one in to help cover the expenses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 29, 2020, 06:08:22 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on January 29, 2020, 05:47:11 am

I can only see two party hats in that last panel. *shudder*

Thankfully he is wearing two and the melon one.

...Or possibly the melon is wearing three and there is five party hats. AAAIGH! NO! NON-EUCLIDEAN HATOMETRICS! My mind... it can't take it!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 07, 2020, 03:10:54 pm

I have a weird, probably stupid, idea for a Shadowrun campaign. Well, several, but one that's on my mind.

In Shadowrun, you are cybered- or magiced-up mercenaries try to use your above-average skills to solve problems and get through missions to make money, but you never really do enough exploring of the world or the themes (probably true with most systems). I'd like a campaign where you make one or two skill rolls to see if you succeed at the mission, or how well you succeed/fail. Then you actually play the downtime between missions. Mostly stupid mundane BS that you'd deal with living in a huge city as a (legally) non-person in a terrible apartment (because you can't rent a nice place if you don't have ID or credit), but maybe getting up to stuff as wild as getting the rigger's van back after it gets towed. I'm not sure what the plotline would be (even for the background plot between the missions your character is running off-screen), but it feels like an interesting idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 07, 2020, 03:17:18 pm

Quote from: Iduno on February 07, 2020, 03:10:54 pm

I have a weird, probably stupid, idea for a Shadowrun campaign. Well, several, but one that's on my mind.

In Shadowrun, you are cybered- or magiced-up mercenaries try to use your above-average skills to solve problems and get through missions to make money, but you never really do enough exploring of the world or the themes (probably true with most systems). I'd like a campaign where you make one or two skill rolls to see if you succeed at the mission, or how well you succeed/fail. Then you actually play the downtime between missions. Mostly stupid mundane BS that you'd deal with living in a huge city as a (legally) non-person in a terrible apartment (because you can't rent a nice place if you don't have ID or credit), but maybe getting up to stuff as wild as getting the rigger's van back after it gets towed. I'm not sure what the plotline would be (even for the background plot between the missions your character is running off-screen), but it feels like an interesting idea.

I would think that you wouldn't have plotline, you'd just have a list of random events.
You roll, see which event happened in your mundane life, deal with it with roleplay, maybe do a few mission rolls to get more money, maybe do a bit more roleplay, repeat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 07, 2020, 03:33:50 pm

Just make sure your players are well-acquainted with the idea first, if everyone wants to do that then it's good, but I wouldn't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 07, 2020, 03:39:25 pm

BBE: The landlord. *Shudder*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 07, 2020, 04:06:35 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 07, 2020, 03:33:50 pm

Just make sure your players are well-acquainted with the idea first, if everyone wants to do that then it's good, but I wouldn't.

Absolutely. Slice-of-life dramedy starring people who are almost supers is not for everyone. I think having a source of income to keep upgrades coming would free the game up for more of a Cowboy Bebop "having adventures without caring how the story ends, as long as the characters don't die before the end" feeling to it.

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 07, 2020, 03:17:18 pm

Quote from: Iduno on February 07, 2020, 03:10:54 pm

I have a weird, probably stupid, idea for a Shadowrun campaign. Well, several, but one that's on my mind.

In Shadowrun, you are cybered- or magiced-up mercenaries try to use your above-average skills to solve problems and get through missions to make money, but you never really do enough exploring of the world or the themes (probably true with most systems). I'd like a campaign where you make one or two skill rolls to see if you succeed at the mission, or how well you succeed/fail. Then you actually play the downtime between missions. Mostly stupid mundane BS that you'd deal with living in a huge city as a (legally) non-person in a terrible apartment (because you can't rent a nice place if you don't have ID or credit), but maybe getting up to stuff as wild as getting the rigger's van back after it gets towed. I'm not sure what the plotline would be (even for the background plot between the missions your character is running off-screen), but it feels like an interesting idea.

I would think that you wouldn't have plotline, you'd just have a list of random events.
You roll, see which event happened in your mundane life, deal with it with roleplay, maybe do a few mission rolls to get more money, maybe do a bit more roleplay, repeat.

I'd probably have half of the "random" events actually leading to some kind of story. Someone trying to clean up the image of a neighborhood and get rid of the current residents to put up expensive condos or something.

Quote from: Kagus on February 07, 2020, 03:39:25 pm

BBE: The landlord. *Shudder*

Look, why do you think we call the evil guy you have to get stop "the boss"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 07, 2020, 05:13:34 pm

My first reaction is to wonder if a Blades in the Dark hack of some kind might work well for this. I guess maybe you'd need to expand downtime with more rules and randomness and give it rewards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on February 08, 2020, 10:00:15 pm

Well, as I write this we're getting absolutely bodied in my third-ever Pathfinder game. Three of us are unconscious, the rest are surrounded by 10+ goblin commandos.

I ain't even mad, because I've been imagining the mounted goblin warchief as looking and sounding like Macho Man Randy Savage. Things might have gone a bit better if our halfling ninja hadn't received "super tetanus" from repeatedly triggering a chest trap shortly before.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on February 09, 2020, 09:07:34 pm

I don't know how viable it is, but I just noticed the Rot Warden (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/rot-warden-druid-archetype/) druid archetype and really want to play that someday. The idea of playing a druid who focuses on protecting bugs sounds fun, and it can throw swarms of flesh eating cockroaches at people from level 3.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 10, 2020, 01:02:46 am

Imhotep approves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 10, 2020, 04:22:44 am

Also, vermin are valid choices for animal companions, meaning you could have a druid that turns into a spider, summons spiders, and travels with a giant spider pet.

Now if only you could come up with a short, catchy name for such a character...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 10, 2020, 05:53:57 am

Sure you don't wanna pull out the 5e UA Ranger archetype, where you can shoot badgers at people and fly on a buzzing cloud of crabs?


Also, re: Shadowrun "Behind the scenes edition", I just re-found one of the things that concept reminded me of.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/YSZxyE9.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 11, 2020, 09:25:37 am

Quote from: Kadzar on February 07, 2020, 05:13:34 pm

My first reaction is to wonder if a Blades in the Dark hack of some kind might work well for this. I guess maybe you'd need to expand downtime with more rules and randomness and give it rewards.

The major issue with using Blades in the Dark is the core resolution mechanic. It's good at telling the story of how the players lose, but not about them succeeding. 50% chance of success on each die roll is bad if you're rolling dice for anything important. Especially if you take into account iterative probability: succeeding half of the time means you succeed 1/4 of the time if you roll twice, 1/8 if you roll 3 times... It's got some good ideas, and ideally you'd want a simpler and better balanced Shadowrun-like game, but you also want a way for the PCs to be better than the opposition so they don't lose to probability.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 12, 2020, 10:27:05 am

You know, if you count alcohol as poison, paladins are so good at drinking contests, if they cheat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 12, 2020, 10:47:43 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 12, 2020, 10:27:05 am

paladins are so good ... if they cheat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 12, 2020, 10:56:45 am

Level 10 Druid of the Land. Hell, they'll even bring the grapes!

"Not now Martha! I'm... communing with nature's spirits"


Funnily enough, monks get the same immunities (sans charmed by fey/elemental immunity) at level 10... Guess it's just hermit powers or somethin'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:41 am

Apparently, if you cast freedom of movement and feign death together, they can still move, just not do actions or reactions and are blind.
A little lesser restoration, and they can infiltrate a morgue, or just to take advantage of resistance to nearly everything.
Also, you might be able to make enemy cleric waste their turn undeads, since you still appear dead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 12, 2020, 12:15:34 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 12, 2020, 11:06:41 am

...can still move... ...blind.

I now picture a limp body just sort of quickly sliding along the ground, bumping into walls and stuff as it tries to navigate.

A zombie roomba. Roombie? Zoomba? Something along those lines.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 12, 2020, 04:41:36 pm

Add a Lesser Restoration for the blindness, as pikachu mentioned, and you're good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 17, 2020, 03:54:58 pm

A Rogue 18/Barbarian 2 can utilize reckless attack without penalty in order to gain advantage (and thereby sneak attack) on every strike. You'll have to use strength for this attack, but that means you can also rage for +2 rage damage.

While both Reckless and Sneak attack can only be used once per turn, the Thief archetype level 17 allows you to take two turns during your first round in combat.

For this hypothetical, we'll have a character that's using a rapier, holding a shield (barbarian proficiency), has 20 strength (should be possible by level 18/2), and has picked up the Shield Master feat.

Round 1: Thiefbarian rages, moves to enemy, recklessly attacks for 1d8+7+9d6 damage at +11 tohit with advantage. If enemy has lower initiative, they get their turn now, but do not automatically get advantage against Thiefbarian. If not, Thiefbarian just continues with their second turn in a row. Thiefbarian then recklessly attacks again for the same values, and uses bonus action to shove enemy prone with advantage on the strength check, because he's a dick.

Round 2: People start acting sensibly again and Thiefbarian only gets one 1d8+7+9d6 damage at +11 tohit with advantage attack plus shove per round.


Is it an Enmity Paladin 18/Fighter 2 with Great Weapon Mastery burning 4 spell slots for a potential... -*thinking sounds*- ...8d6+24d8+60 damage? No.

It's still pretty funny though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 18, 2020, 08:38:31 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 17, 2020, 03:54:58 pm

Round 1: Thiefbarian rages, moves to enemy, recklessly attacks for 1d8+7+9d6 damage at +11 tohit with advantage.

43 damage at level 20? How many total hp does a level 20 encounter have? Only hundreds, or ~1,000?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 18, 2020, 08:44:03 am

Peasants don't scale.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 19, 2020, 07:57:14 am

1d8+7+9d6 is dealing less damage per round as a standard sword and board fighter 20 only attacking on his turn, but also has less ability to deal with multiple targets, and isn't burning any resources either (I imagine numbers of rages are limited).

I suppose it's one way to always be able to get sneak attack, but... sneak attack isn't very difficult to get anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 19, 2020, 08:22:16 am

You do get perma-advantage though, so a higher chance of critting and doubling the sneaky dice, but yeah. I just thought it was a funny interaction between reckless and the Rogue.

It has, however, helped highlight some of the limitations of sneak attack for me... So there's that!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on February 19, 2020, 09:11:50 am

Sneak Attack is generally best thought of as a variant of Extra Attackaz\

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 19, 2020, 01:48:28 pm

ATTACKAAAAAAZZZZZZ

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 20, 2020, 01:22:30 pm

I would like to present the best take on centaurs I've seen.

(https://i.imgur.com/kndNab2.png)

Too bad the game itself is kind of poo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 20, 2020, 01:25:13 pm

They should have made the hooves into hands and feet too

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on February 20, 2020, 04:09:24 pm

You know, now that you mention it, it does kind of seems weirder for centaurs to have human heads. Not to mention this bypasses the awkward question of where the horse part ends and the human part begins.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 20, 2020, 04:32:23 pm

Or there's the reverse-centaur.

(https://www.esquireme.com/sites/default/files/styles/full_img/public/images/2019/10/24/bojackhorseman.jpg?itok=rkRgdi8j)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 20, 2020, 04:33:22 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on February 20, 2020, 04:32:23 pm

Or there's the reverse-centaur.

(https://www.esquireme.com/sites/default/files/styles/full_img/public/images/2019/10/24/bojackhorseman.jpg?itok=rkRgdi8j)

Wouldn't a reverse centaur have hooves for hands?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 20, 2020, 04:45:51 pm

My apologies, this thread obviously needs more hooves for hands.

Let me fix that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://miro.medium.com/max/600/1*c4fmJK4hOPPYkss3kZcQQg.jpeg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 20, 2020, 10:12:02 pm

Oh wow, I'm not the only one who remembers that image :D

I'm pretty sure it predates the MLP reboot, too...  One of my favorite WTF reaction images, though I tend to avoid using it since others probably appreciate it less.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 21, 2020, 09:07:07 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 20, 2020, 04:33:22 pm

Wouldn't a reverse centaur have hooves for hands?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://media4.popsugar-assets.com/files/2013/07/28/088/n/1922283/c5e61c2bc0253be0_tumblr_static_creepy_deer_taking_hooves_off.xxxlarge.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 03:45:12 pm

What happens if you Speak With Dead a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?
Does it still understand your words, but you can't understand their response?
Do they simply not answer?
Do they give the answer to what the closest thing in their language to your question?

Sidenote, the main reason I asked the prior question, their is nothing saying you can't use this spell on a nonsentient animal that has a mouth.
Presumably, you can cast Speak With Animals at the same time to speak with dead animals.
Actually its not just animals, its any non-undead with a mouth. So you can ask broken Modrons questions just as easily, assuming Modrons don't just disappear when dead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 28, 2020, 04:12:43 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 03:45:12 pm

What happens if you Speak With Dead a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?

What happens if you speak with animals a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?


Edit: Because I would assume it's the same answer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 28, 2020, 04:15:35 pm

Is it an animal? Because then it still understands you. Is it not an animal? Then the spell doesn't make you communicable with it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 05:44:43 pm

Quote from: Iduno on February 28, 2020, 04:12:43 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 03:45:12 pm

What happens if you Speak With Dead a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?

What happens if you speak with animals a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?
Edit: Because I would assume it's the same answer.

Speak with Animals allows you to speak with creatures that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages if they are an animal. That's what the spell does explicitly. Nothing in Speak With Dead suggests it allows you to understand you, but it doesn't suggest they don't either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 02, 2020, 10:29:46 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtnLznwZW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtnLznwZW4)

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 05:44:43 pm

Quote from: Iduno on February 28, 2020, 04:12:43 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 03:45:12 pm

What happens if you Speak With Dead a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?

What happens if you speak with animals a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?
Edit: Because I would assume it's the same answer.

Speak with Animals allows you to speak with creatures that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages if they are an animal. That's what the spell does explicitly. Nothing in Speak With Dead suggests it allows you to understand you, but it doesn't suggest they don't either.

Well, if the rules are unclear, try comparing it to a similar spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 02, 2020, 11:39:26 am

Quote from: Iduno on March 02, 2020, 10:29:46 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtnLznwZW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtnLznwZW4)

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 05:44:43 pm

Quote from: Iduno on February 28, 2020, 04:12:43 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on February 28, 2020, 03:45:12 pm

What happens if you Speak With Dead a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?

What happens if you speak with animals a creature that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages?
Edit: Because I would assume it's the same answer.

Speak with Animals allows you to speak with creatures that doesn't understand or speak any of your languages if they are an animal. That's what the spell does explicitly. Nothing in Speak With Dead suggests it allows you to understand you, but it doesn't suggest they don't either.

Well, if the rules are unclear, try comparing it to a similar spell.

Is there a similar spell to Speak with Dead, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 02, 2020, 11:51:17 am

3.5 is slightly more clear about this, saying "The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any)".  5e says basically the same thing about languages, just without that final hint.  The spell doesn't help you communicate with a target which didn't share a language with you in life.

On the other hand...  in 3.5 it's cryptic (and gets a will save, despite the soul not being involved), in 5e it can outright lie if it doesn't like your face.  Basically, I'd expect a dead dwarf to answer in Dwarven, even if it knew Common in life.  Even in 3.5 it's only compelled to answer, not to answer in a way you'll comprehend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 02, 2020, 12:44:02 pm

The text for speak with dead in 5e:

Quote from: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Speak%20with%20Dead#content

You grant the semblance of life and Intelligence to a corpse of your choice within range, allowing it to answer the questions you pose. The corpse must still have a mouth and can't be Undead. The spell fails if the corpse was the target of this spell within the last 10 days.

Until the spell ends, you can ask the corpse up to five questions. The corpse knows only what it knew in life, including the Languages it knew. Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive, and the corpse is under no Compulsion to offer a truthful answer if you are Hostile to it or it recognizes you as an enemy. This spell doesn't return the creature's soul to its body, only its animating spirit. Thus, the corpse can't learn new information, doesn't comprehend anything that has happened since it died, and can't speculate about future events.

It's explicitly mentioned it only knows what languages it knew in life, so if you don't share a language, it wouldn't be able to understand you. It doesn't gain any new methods of understanding like new languages.

RAW I don't think you'd be able to combo the two speak with spells to talk to dead animals because SWA allows you to communicate with Beasts, and a corpse is no longer a creature but an Object.
I'd probably allow it anyway, but technically I don't think it works.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 02, 2020, 12:49:18 pm

But death knows all

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 02, 2020, 01:37:22 pm

The Speak with Dead spell specifies that the creature only knows things it knew in life, including languages. So I'd assume that it is intended that you can only speak to corpses that share a common spoken language with you.

In 3.5 it had the Language Dependent tag, but in 5e spells don't have tags so it's less specific.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 11, 2020, 07:58:22 am

I have found myself in a Dungeon Fantasy (Powered by GURPS) game set in the Darkest Dungeon universe. My favorite joke GURPS character, stripped of the jokes, should fit right in.

Arise, Food Mage MKII.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 11, 2020, 11:36:18 am

I had a thought today that they should have called the worse version of the Star Wars RPG "R2D20."

I was glad to see someone had already made that joke online.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on March 11, 2020, 11:48:45 am

The D6 version really was superior.  As long as you didn't do things like try to mix scales, where you could easily end up with even humans who were tougher than snow speeders.

Quote from: Mephisto on March 11, 2020, 07:58:22 am

I have found myself in a Dungeon Fantasy (Powered by GURPS) game set in the Darkest Dungeon universe. My favorite joke GURPS character, stripped of the jokes, should fit right in.

Arise, Food Mage MKII.

I've been trying to run a GURPS Dungeon Fantasy game for some friends, but it's been difficult to get off the ground.  Depending on how strictly you track things like supplies, a food mage could be pretty useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 11, 2020, 12:17:31 pm

Quote from: Telgin on March 11, 2020, 11:48:45 am

Quote from: Mephisto on March 11, 2020, 07:58:22 am

I have found myself in a Dungeon Fantasy (Powered by GURPS) game set in the Darkest Dungeon universe. My favorite joke GURPS character, stripped of the jokes, should fit right in.

Arise, Food Mage MKII.

I've been trying to run a GURPS Dungeon Fantasy game for some friends, but it's been difficult to get off the ground.  Depending on how strictly you track things like supplies, a food mage could be pretty useful.

Agreed on getting a GURPS thing started.

I have been challenged to not select Create Food. So it's not exactly hard mode, but I can no longer turn rocks into sustenance or rotten zombie flesh into filet mignon. I'll also be missing out on Essential Food down the line but we'll make do.

Still, being able to Seek Food instead of foraging like a peasant is great. Being able to cast Prepare Game and dissect a body into its constituent parts instead of going at it with a dagger like a barbarian is also great and eliminates the problem of accidentally puncturing poison glands or whatever.

Given how spell choices work in DF, the majority of my spells will be non-food-themed. I'll still be slinging fireballs, raising magical shields, and doing whatever else wizards do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on March 11, 2020, 04:32:10 pm

Ugh, my group is hitting a snag. The finale of a section is coming up and nobody wants to do it with somebody missing, but very rarely is everybody free, even on scheduled days. And they all have terrible computers that are constantly broken or missing parts.

I don't want to be the one to suggest it since we're already a few weeks off-schedule, but at least one person has offered that they'd be okay if we did it without them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on March 11, 2020, 05:18:27 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on March 11, 2020, 04:32:10 pm

Ugh, my group is hitting a snag. The finale of a section is coming up and nobody wants to do it with somebody missing, but very rarely is everybody free, even on scheduled days. And they all have terrible computers that are constantly broken or missing parts.

I don't want to be the one to suggest it since we're already a few weeks off-schedule, but at least one person has offered that they'd be okay if we did it without them.

I know what this is like. Two of my five players were sick and we had to call off the game last Friday. I'm really hoping nobody flakes out on me this week, because the previous game had one player away, and resulted in the near-death of a character due to their lack of backup.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrWiggles on March 16, 2020, 01:04:05 am

So, gonna be doing a Tiamat game.
I'm running a cleric, and curious for some goofy or good cleric builds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on March 16, 2020, 01:30:17 am

Grave Cleric (Xanathar's, I think) basically are the "no one in this party will ever die" guys. Fun if you can convince your DM to let you reskin your weapon as a shovel.

Life Cleric's flat healing boost is nuts. If you get a feat and pick up goodberry you have some broken heals at early levels.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 16, 2020, 01:43:55 am

Or you can grab just enough life cleric to grab the healing boost, and then switch to lore bard and grab the paladin's healing aura at a lower level and with more spell slots than that spell was intended for.

Higher level than goodberry, or course, but it's pretty sick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on March 16, 2020, 10:07:12 am

Forge clerics can get absurd AC and one or two level dip fighter for an extra AC through fighting styles (and/or a little more damage through a martial weapon or dueling fighting style). Combined with cleric spells providing on-demand healing or good damage, you're a tank.

My forge cleric1/fighter 1 has an AC of 20 while in chain mail, and that's only going to go up as she levels and gets better armour (and especially if she finds any magic armour).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 16, 2020, 10:23:13 am

If you're gonna dip fighter for 1 level, you're gonna dip fighter for 2 levels. Action surge is just way, way too good.


For cleric-dipping (does that count as baptism?) shenanigans, I'm also a fan of Tempest Cleric 2/Druid of the Land (mountain) 5... For their ability to lay down a maxed lightning bolt 7 character levels before an Evoker Wizard can.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 17, 2020, 09:40:03 am

I am starting to have too much downtime, and need to start gaming again.

Anyone want to brainstorm over-arching plots for Shadowrun? Anyone interested in learning to GM Shadowrun? If there's enough interest, I'll start a new thread in Other Games to keep from clogging this place up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 17, 2020, 10:02:10 am

All of my ideas are probably too close to current events at the moment to be fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 17, 2020, 10:22:36 am

Quote from: Mephisto on March 17, 2020, 10:02:10 am

All of my ideas are probably too close to current events at the moment to be fun.

Yeah, I try to keep only the best news stories for that (https://www.newsweek.com/fire-bull-semen-explosion-farm-australia-1459673). When too much un-entertaining present stuff is in my head, I just zone out with a heist movie.


Edit: It's the longer plots that are a sticking point for me, which is why I'm not running a game right now. I could just re-use the plot from the last campaign I ran with different characters and runs, but that seems too lazy (because it was somewhat designed with the PCs in mind). Also, it's already written up online, which could undermine the "what was actually going on" reveal.

Edit2: Honestly, I'd probably settle for Heroquest right now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 19, 2020, 03:00:51 pm

What a time to be a gamer. All this week, companies have been giving away or massively discounting their games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 19, 2020, 03:36:56 pm

...am I too late? Is there any place where you can see this kind of stuff when it happens?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 19, 2020, 03:44:12 pm

The only one you're too late for would be 3/5 of this selection of WoD 20th Anniversary stuff (http://tesseraguild.com/world-of-darkness-20th-anniversary-edition-quarantine-giveaways/). I'll see about coming up with a list this evening but you can find a bunch by looking around on DriveThruRPG. I buy too many games so I've been notified of most of them by publisher emails via DTRPG or Kickstarter.

A few highlights (if not linked, it's on DTRPG):

The Dark Eye
Teenagers from Outerspace
Fantasy AGE
The Fantasy Trip: Melee
This Call of Cthulhu coloring book (https://www.chaosium.com/blogstaying-in-color-in-at-home-with-chaosium-weve-made-call-of-cthulhu-the-coloring-book-a-free-download/)
Buncha supers stuff (https://store.greaterthangames.com/?target=search&mode=search&substring=digital&including=all)

And if you're into online game shenanigans, Astral Tabletop is upgrading everyone to pro until the end of April.

---

Evening edit: Rather than make a bunch of posts, I'll just keep updating this one.

Deadlands Marshal's Handbook and Player's Guide (https://www.peginc.com/store/helpin-hands-bundle/)
Buncha miscellaneous games (https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/) - Troika gets a big recommend from me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 19, 2020, 04:52:06 pm

Thanks a lot! I downloaded the bunch because why not.

Well, except the Dark Eye. Damn Germans passive aggressively saying it's free and then trying to guilt trip you anyway. Not today, Hermann

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 19, 2020, 05:14:58 pm

While off-topic, some steam games like Darkest Dungeon are 75% off now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on March 20, 2020, 12:58:06 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 19, 2020, 04:52:06 pm

Thanks a lot! I downloaded the bunch because why not.

Well, except the Dark Eye. Damn Germans passive aggressively saying it's free and then trying to guilt trip you anyway. Not today, Hermann

you're talking about the suggested price? My personal view is that I wouldn't have bothered with the system otherwise, and, if I do like it, I might buy supplements or whatever. As it is, I'm just using this as an opportunity to check it out, since I've heard it bandied about occasionally.

Quote from: pikachu17 on March 19, 2020, 05:14:58 pm

While off-topic, some steam games like Darkest Dungeon are 75% off now.

That's probably more appropriate for The Sales Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=79743.0).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 20, 2020, 01:00:19 pm

Quote from: Kadzar on March 20, 2020, 12:58:06 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 19, 2020, 04:52:06 pm

Thanks a lot! I downloaded the bunch because why not.

Well, except the Dark Eye. Damn Germans passive aggressively saying it's free and then trying to guilt trip you anyway. Not today, Hermann

you're talking about the suggested price? My personal view is that I wouldn't have bothered with the system otherwise, and, if I do like it, I might buy supplements or whatever. As it is, I'm just using this as an opportunity to check it out, since I've heard it bandied about occasionally.

Yeah it just took me by surprise since the other ones were free. Once I had gotten over it I downloaded it for free anyway.

Wiley Germans. I won't let them get the better of me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 20, 2020, 04:26:34 pm

Pay What You Want with a developer suggested price is a fairly standard pricing scheme for DTRPG.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on March 21, 2020, 01:55:32 am

Well, the pandemic has precipitated the death of my weekly game night. One of my players has confirmed contact with a COVID-19 carrier and is in isolation. Another one recently traveled overseas. The others don't want to do face-games until the worst is over.

Ah well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 21, 2020, 08:21:57 am

The era of social gatherings has ended! This is the time of facecall oneshots.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 21, 2020, 10:42:55 am

I'm already in a new VoIP game but it's not enough. I foresee having to get over my dislike of forum play real soon.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on March 21, 2020, 05:05:27 pm

I've never actually played or ran a play-by-post game. I ran a very short-lived RTD, but that barely counts because I didn't know what I was doing and lost interest before page 3.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 21, 2020, 05:30:05 pm

I did one once, it didn't last very long.  Play by Post is just abysmally slow and actually even more reliant on people not flaking out since every delay in somebody's post is just dragging things out even longer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 22, 2020, 12:16:59 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on March 21, 2020, 05:05:27 pm

I've never actually played or ran a play-by-post game. I ran a very short-lived RTD, but that barely counts because I didn't know what I was doing and lost interest before page 3.

I played in one that lasted about 2 weeks, and 1.5 rounds of combat.  It works better for games with chess with less actively going on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 22, 2020, 01:12:07 pm

PbP, much like other formats, requires a good group to sustain. Platforms like Discord in my experience seem to work better for PbP than a traditional internet forum though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2020, 11:07:14 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 21, 2020, 01:55:32 am

Well, the pandemic has precipitated the death of my weekly game night. One of my players has confirmed contact with a COVID-19 carrier and is in isolation. Another one recently traveled overseas. The others don't want to do face-games until the worst is over.

Ah well.

Consider using voicechat (Discord is currently the preeminent supplier) and coupling it with Roll20 if you want a setup more elaborate than theater of the mind. Although it can be a hassle to transition to it if you've got all your stuff in the realm of physical reality, it's very handy for this sort of situation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 23, 2020, 12:41:55 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on March 23, 2020, 11:07:14 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 21, 2020, 01:55:32 am

Well, the pandemic has precipitated the death of my weekly game night. One of my players has confirmed contact with a COVID-19 carrier and is in isolation. Another one recently traveled overseas. The others don't want to do face-games until the worst is over.

Ah well.

Consider using voicechat (Discord is currently the preeminent supplier) and coupling it with Roll20 if you want a setup more elaborate than theater of the mind. Although it can be a hassle to transition to it if you've got all your stuff in the realm of physical reality, it's very handy for this sort of situation.

Yeah, but if you're able to do it live, it's not really play by post anymore.

Edit: I read badly, but I'm leaving this here to remind me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on March 23, 2020, 12:49:07 pm

Roll20 has some issues, or at least the premade Pathfinder package my DM uses does. Besides that, I get the feeling that some in my group, despite being good players, aren't very computer-savvy and that sometimes slows down the pace of play. I'd still take it over not playing at all in a heartbeat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 23, 2020, 12:56:06 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 23, 2020, 12:41:55 pm

Yeah, but if you're able to do it live, it's not really play by post anymore.

Neither of the posts you quoted mentioned PbP, so they should be fine.

Quote from: itisnotlogical on March 23, 2020, 12:49:07 pm

Roll20 has some issues, or at least the premade Pathfinder package my DM uses does. Besides that, I get the feeling that some in my group, despite being good players, aren't very computer-savvy and that sometimes slows down the pace of play. I'd still take it over not playing at all in a heartbeat.

VTT is great if there's a lot of map based combat, but Discord with a dice bot is pretty good otherwise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 23, 2020, 01:00:01 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on March 23, 2020, 12:49:07 pm

Roll20 has some issues, or at least the premade Pathfinder package my DM uses does. Besides that, I get the feeling that some in my group, despite being good players, aren't very computer-savvy and that sometimes slows down the pace of play. I'd still take it over not playing at all in a heartbeat.

It's a known issue that their RNG is very sticky (you get the same number coming up a lot in a short period of time).

Quote from: Persus13 on March 23, 2020, 12:56:06 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 23, 2020, 12:41:55 pm

Yeah, but if you're able to do it live, it's not really play by post anymore.

Neither of the posts you quoted mentioned PbP, so they should be fine.

I will leave that there as a testament to my illiteracy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2020, 01:07:01 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 23, 2020, 12:41:55 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on March 23, 2020, 11:07:14 am

Quote from: Jimmy on March 21, 2020, 01:55:32 am

Well, the pandemic has precipitated the death of my weekly game night. One of my players has confirmed contact with a COVID-19 carrier and is in isolation. Another one recently traveled overseas. The others don't want to do face-games until the worst is over.

Ah well.

Consider using voicechat (Discord is currently the preeminent supplier) and coupling it with Roll20 if you want a setup more elaborate than theater of the mind. Although it can be a hassle to transition to it if you've got all your stuff in the realm of physical reality, it's very handy for this sort of situation.

Yeah, but if you're able to do it live, it's not really play by post anymore.

That's sort of the point.

Quote from: itisnotlogical on March 23, 2020, 12:49:07 pm

Roll20 has some issues, or at least the premade Pathfinder package my DM uses does. Besides that, I get the feeling that some in my group, despite being good players, aren't very computer-savvy and that sometimes slows down the pace of play. I'd still take it over not playing at all in a heartbeat.

What issues? Maybe I know how to work around it. I and many other people have had trouble with that separate script for showing cones and stuff, but the native Pathfinder stuff has always worked fine for me, even if it only explicitly supports core content, and non-core you have to type in or figure out yourself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on March 23, 2020, 01:58:06 pm

The biggest issue was that for a long time, one of our party's character sheet was bugged and wouldn't do the automatic rolls; that player had to manually type in everything. We got around it by just recreating the character on a new sheet, but now the GM is starting to have that error sometimes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 23, 2020, 03:13:40 pm

Roll20 has the potential to massively simplify your game but everyone has to give a shit. I love being able to click a button to cast a spell and then click a different button to see if hit hits before clicking another button to do damage and include damage type modifiers. One of my fellow players is fine typing in /roll {3d6, 0d0}k1 all day every day.

Maybe we just don't know the system as well but it was even simpler when I was playing Fantasy Grounds - I could select a specific enemy and it would figure out ranges, resistances, and so on automatically.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on March 23, 2020, 03:49:05 pm

We're likely migrating over to Roll20 with my group too. Really recommend the Beyond20 browser add-on if you're also using DnD Beyond. It integrates your Beyond sheet really smoothly, most checks only take one click. We had a test game yesterday (some Critical Role adventure; I died in the first encounter and two others nearly did too) and I'm already quite fond of it. Been making tokens in Token Stamp for when I get around to GMing there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on March 23, 2020, 06:10:26 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on March 23, 2020, 01:58:06 pm

The biggest issue was that for a long time, one of our party's character sheet was bugged and wouldn't do the automatic rolls; that player had to manually type in everything. We got around it by just recreating the character on a new sheet, but now the GM is starting to have that error sometimes.

Weird. All automatic rolls on that sheet? I and my group must have been through something like 30 characters without encountering this, and not in other games either.

Quote from: Mephisto on March 23, 2020, 03:13:40 pm

Roll20 has the potential to massively simplify your game but everyone has to give a shit. I love being able to click a button to cast a spell and then click a different button to see if hit hits before clicking another button to do damage and include damage type modifiers. One of my fellow players is fine typing in /roll {3d6, 0d0}k1 all day every day.

Maybe we just don't know the system as well but it was even simpler when I was playing Fantasy Grounds - I could select a specific enemy and it would figure out ranges, resistances, and so on automatically.

I spent years not using any automatic rolling features and just reading my character sheet then rolling manually the same as you would for tabletop of IRC-with-bots, until we got a new (to the group, but not the system) player who was so annoyed by what apparently was grandfatherly technical ambivalence, and set the macros up for me. That was 4e though, the Pathfinder sheets are a lot easier.

I know Fantasy Grounds has some more features, but my understanding is it's only easy/convenient if you're using the paid content add-ons, and even the $20 for the program itself could be a bit of a tough sell to a group if you don't even necessarily know it'll turn out being good and convenient for your group/game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on March 23, 2020, 06:56:48 pm

I've also started using Roll20. Ran my first online session of Dungeon World on Saturday, and I have to say, the character sheets for it are kind of bad. All the moves are collapsed by default, and the text is in tiny text boxes that you have to scroll through if it's a complicated move. I wanted to use these form-fillable PDFs character sheets (https://www.reddit.com/r/DungeonWorld/comments/70tln8/i_made_fillable_dungeonworld_playbook_pdfs/) instead since they work so much better (more readable and you can just click to select moves), but some players didn't want to use it because you can't really add in custom moves with it.

After using it for a while, it's not quite as bad as it seemed originally. The moves on the character sheet are often completely unusable (I guess if you're a fighter or something, you'll have to cut out all the text that doesn't apply to your signature weapon), but the compendium made it easy to look up moves and such, so that really wasn't such an issue. Also, it was nice to be able to draw a map that the players could all look at during the session.

The session itself was good. It was a little touch-and-go at first because I run Dungeon World by improvising a world and a starting scenario by improvising using whatever players give me, but once I got an idea of the sort of world we were in and the things players were interested in, it really took off.

---

So we started out with the players entering a city, because the human wizard had heard that the key to reversing his parent's transformation (which he was responsible for) was in here. The halfling bard was a little uneasy about entering the city, since he's technically wanted here, though he doesn't know that because of memory problems, so it just manifests into a sense of unease. And the orc cleric was along because her god gave her a vision telling her to go here.

The wizard goes into a magic shop owned by some halfling dude, because his leads pointed him out as someone who likely knew some way of reversing transformation. He doesn't want to just give away information, so he asks the party to go get some money from a guy who owes him for a potion.

The party goes to the guy's house, and it's a dilapidated hut, and, after a bit of talking, they learn that the potion he owes him for is a luck potion that didn't work when he went to go gambling. The party doesn't feel great about shaking down some poor dude who was taken in by a scam, so they return to the halfling magic merchant empty-handed.

He doesn't like the fact that they didn't do as he asked and accused him of things, so he ejects them from his shop. They then go to the wizard's second lead, which is a weaponsmith's shop. She tells them that, though she doesn't have anything that would do the job, she has heard talk of a shrine in the woods to the south that is said to be able to reverse transformations.

So they head off out of town, and the bard manages to roll quite well to still stay hidden from anyone seeking him here, and they decide to traverse the mountain the way of their path, rather than going around it, and everyone does quite well in their jobs during the journey, except for the wizard, who was navigating, so it takes them quite a bit more time from all the backtracking and whatnot they have to do trying to cross this mountain. But eventually they make it into the woods.

When they get there, the wizard tries to cast Detect Magic to locate the shrine. But it doesn't work, because, as soon as he tries to cast the spell, it fizzles, and everyone hears chanting as hooded robed figures slowing emerge through the trees.

A fight breaks out, the wizard downs a couple with Magic Missile, the others party members get a little beat up standing near the front of the fray, and the bard tries to heal them but ends up also buffing the cultists at the same time, and also a few of the cultists gather up their power to shoot off an energy ball at the wizard. Then the bard tries to distract a few with a cartwheel so the cleric can get some easy hits in, but, instead, she takes a moment to reflect on what's going on here, and realizes both that the rituals these cultists are doing are stolen and twisted versions of those used by her faith, and that the cultists seem mostly like they're just trying to keep the party busy.

After at least another energy ball barrage by the cultist, and things looking kind of grim, suddenly, the cleric's friend, the dwarven artificer appears (another player who showed up late). He actives a device that makes a hole to escape down into, and drops down it. The cleric follows after, and the bard is about to drop down, but casts a musical spell (I think it was healing or something) on the wizard and is grabbed by one of the cultists, and is about to be taken away. Fortunately, the wizard is able to drop the cultist with a Magic Missile, and the bard makes it down the hole.

So it's just the wizard left up top at this point, and there's a couple of cultists between him and the hole. He then reveals to the audience what he's been keeping secret from the party: the accident that transformed his parents also made him part dragon. He has wings, and, though they can't really fly, they're enough to get a good jump over these cultists, and so he bounds over, and falls into the hole just before it collapses.

So now the whole party is down in the hole, which it turns out leads to the artificer's underground bunker. The cleric casts a spell to contact a local spirit, which is a great oak beast, and it tells her the way to the shrine will be marked by the moss of the trees. And the party realizes that, whatever the cultists were trying to keep them away from, they'll likely need to do something about it very soon.

And that's were we left off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on March 23, 2020, 07:08:36 pm

Start up a shadowrun session if you want to see what's wrong with Roll20s character sheets. They include everything, amd it's the rare player who uses 40% of what's there.

Also, my laptop's screen resolution is shit and the sheets are married to that, meaning it's unusable for me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 23, 2020, 08:29:54 pm

Quote from: delphonso on March 23, 2020, 07:08:36 pm

Start up a shadowrun session if you want to see what's wrong with Roll20s character sheets. They include everything, amd it's the rare player who uses 40% of what's there.

That's certainly a decision. The point is that there are supposed to be more skills than you can use, so you need a team to cover your bases.


It's also weird that people keep referring to using IRC with dice bots, because we don't have a new gold standard yet. Discord tries, but maximizing profit is a higher priority than "not bloated."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 23, 2020, 08:52:24 pm

Hey, anyone here taken a crack at one of the several fan-made Elder Scrolls pen and papers??? I've got both the TES and the D&D itch and have been looking at UESRPG, but i'd like to hear what others have to say!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on March 23, 2020, 09:07:32 pm

I'd love to, but probably won't be in a gaming position for another 6 months.

There was a homebrew equipment list and race list for Genesys some time ago. I believe it followed Oblivion's morphology.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 24, 2020, 02:15:10 am

Quote from: Kadzar on March 23, 2020, 06:56:48 pm

*snip for length*

Nice! The soundtrack for the next session will be Alice In Chains's "Down in a Hole".

Quote from: Kadzar on March 23, 2020, 06:56:48 pm

The wizard goes into a magic shop

Idea: A Magic shop that doesn't sell magic items but is magical. Everyone who enters it is compelled to buy 1d4 items. All the items available are cheap tourist/gift shop nonsense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on March 24, 2020, 11:35:11 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 24, 2020, 02:15:10 am

Quote from: Kadzar on March 23, 2020, 06:56:48 pm

*snip for length*

Nice! The soundtrack for the next session will be Alice In Chains's "Down in a Hole".

Hopefully we won't spend the whole session there, but I can try to play it at the start.

Quote from: scriver on March 24, 2020, 02:15:10 am

Quote from: Kadzar on March 23, 2020, 06:56:48 pm

The wizard goes into a magic shop

Idea: A Magic shop that doesn't sell magic items but is magical. Everyone who enters it is compelled to buy 1d4 items. All the items available are cheap tourist/gift shop nonsense.

That reminds me of an idea I had of a vendor who sells some food that no one really likes, but which magically compels them to think that other people they know would really like it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on March 25, 2020, 10:27:59 am

Quote from: Kadzar on March 24, 2020, 11:35:11 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 24, 2020, 02:15:10 am

Quote from: Kadzar on March 23, 2020, 06:56:48 pm

The wizard goes into a magic shop

Idea: A Magic shop that doesn't sell magic items but is magical. Everyone who enters it is compelled to buy 1d4 items. All the items available are cheap tourist/gift shop nonsense.

That reminds me of an idea I had of a vendor who sells some food that no one really likes, but which magically compels them to think that other people they know would really like it.

It reminds myself of my idea of a magic ring that makes its wielder and his companions think it's a working Ring of Three Wishes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 25, 2020, 10:46:23 am

Quote from: scriver on March 24, 2020, 02:15:10 am

Idea: A Magic shop that doesn't sell magic items but is magical. Everyone who enters it is compelled to buy 1d4 items. All the items available are cheap tourist/gift shop nonsense.

There was just an oglaf for that recently. Probably Safe for work, too (I'm not sure about advertisements there, because I use noscript with a few of the worst ad servers blocked). Because of the possible not safe ads, I'll make a non-link.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://www.oglaf.com/supplies/

Also, I liked the one about the tree that granted wishes. You want to be the best writer. Cool, you're trapped in this room while you hone your craft. Although now that I think about it, that's a bit on the nose for right now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 25, 2020, 12:07:04 pm

Oglaf advertisements are a weird 50/50 of either being a sex ad or some completely unrelated tertiary gag.

So... Linking the image itself is probably the best way of avoiding said ads.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on March 26, 2020, 09:29:33 am

Presenting, for your enjoyment, what may be the Shadowrun product with the absolute least amount rules fuckiness.

The free (/pwyw) book (https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/shadowrun-sixth-world-activity-book)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 02, 2020, 02:12:38 pm

I think today marked one of the most mundane mysteries I've ever uncovered in a tabletop RPG. My character tailed some suspicious people who had introduced themselves as Canadians last session. It turns out they speak with a Southern twang when they think he isn't around. That's the whole mystery, the end of their suspicious activity is that they lied about their nationality. It raises the question of why, but I suppose there are several reasons why an American wouldn't want to admit to being one in this day and age...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 02, 2020, 03:44:27 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on April 02, 2020, 02:12:38 pm

I think today marked one of the most mundane mysteries I've ever uncovered in a tabletop RPG. My character tailed some suspicious people who had introduced themselves as Canadians last session. It turns out they speak with a Southern twang when they think he isn't around. That's the whole mystery, the end of their suspicious activity is that they lied about their nationality. It raises the question of why, but I suppose there are several reasons why an American wouldn't want to admit to being one in this day and age...

That sounds more like a mystery hook than the actual mystery.
Are you sure there isn't a deeper reason for why they were pretending to be Canadian?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 02, 2020, 04:01:27 pm

The tailing at least didn't reveal anything suspicious, and the people don't seem to be connected to any known plot. If there is a new deeper mystery that this is foreshadowing of, it's going to need another thread to follow.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on April 02, 2020, 04:19:38 pm

I'm hoping

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

it's just a troll. GM throws something perfectly normal-ish in the game precisely because you (royal you) focus on weird things when in the player seat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on April 04, 2020, 07:35:37 pm

There's a murder mystery afoot in town. Strong suspicions of undead involvement. We have a witness at the crime scene, but he's clammed up and not talking to us. Our cleric is a bit miffed after having to dig through undead flesh, so I'm the first one to try a Diplomacy check despite not having any ranks in it.

Natural one.

"So, I know your body has been undergoing some changes lately..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 06, 2020, 03:35:10 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on April 04, 2020, 07:35:37 pm

There's a murder mystery afoot in town. Strong suspicions of undead involvement. We have a witness at the crime scene, but he's clammed up and not talking to us. Our cleric is a bit miffed after having to dig through undead flesh, so I'm the first one to try a Diplomacy check despite not having any ranks in it.

Natural one.

"So, I know your body has been undergoing some changes lately..."

That sounds more like something you say to a new werewolf instead of a witness.
What changes were their undergoing? Were they a teenager or shapeshanger of some kind?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on April 06, 2020, 04:10:51 pm

Idunno, it was the first thing that popped into my head with no filter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on April 06, 2020, 05:50:55 pm

Honestly, I misinterpreted that as you were interrogating some newly-created undead and I thought you were brilliant.

---

If anyone reading happens to be into post-apocalyptic light-med crunch gaming, you could do worse than Hope (https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/fvi7mp/finally_have_my_kickstarter_game_released_special/) and you can currently nab it for $0.50 using a link in that thread until the 10th. It's definitely a bit quirky but I like it so far.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 07, 2020, 12:43:16 pm

In 5e, a Thief with the Healer feat can bring people to 1 hit point from 0 with a bonus action, which makes them a more expensive but theoretically more short-term sustainable way to keep people in the fight than a cleric, paladin or druid. Although, there is that one overpowered 2nd level spell that might be better, but I don't remember its name so I can't look it up.
Question, is the second bullet of the feat, where you use an action to heal people also made into a bonus action by the Thief feature?



I think a PC with this build could be a mob doctor who's REALLY good with a scalpel.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 07, 2020, 04:49:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 07, 2020, 12:43:16 pm

In 5e, a Thief with the Healer feat can bring people to 1 hit point from 0 with a bonus action, which makes them a more expensive but theoretically more short-term sustainable way to keep people in the fight than a cleric, paladin or druid.

Eh...
Beyond the first couple of levels, most of them can afford the cost of a few level 1 spell slots to cast healing word, and that doesn't require them to be right next to the person. Most fights aren't going to last long enough for it to really matter, one way or another.

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 07, 2020, 12:43:16 pm

Although, there is that one overpowered 2nd level spell that might be better, but I don't remember its name so I can't look it up.

[/quote]
Healing Spirit, which is pretty OP yeah. It'd only take one bonus action and you can have it running for a minute, and you can choose to heal any theoretical number of people passing through.

It's a pretty absurd spell.

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 07, 2020, 12:43:16 pm

Question, is the second bullet of the feat, where you use an action to heal people also made into a bonus action by the Thief feature?

By RAW, yeah.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 07, 2020, 05:03:00 pm

Is it though? Technically it's a feat ability, not an item ability, and the Thief perk lets you "use an item" as a bonus action.

So I'd say it's a matter of being able to stabilize with a bonus action (as per the healer kit), then heal with an action (as per the Healer feat).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 07, 2020, 05:14:53 pm

The funny thing is that Healing Spirit literally just got errataed to not be overpowered anymore.

Thieves using their bonus action to heal with healing kits is a fun build to do. I've got a character that's built around that. And while you can bring people to 1, doing the second bullet point is better because while people with 1 health are back in the fight, its a bad place to be if you're fighting anyone who can do a lot of damage.

Quote from: Kagus on April 07, 2020, 05:03:00 pm

Is it though? Technically it's a feat ability, not an item ability, and the Thief perk lets you "use an item" as a bonus action.

So I'd say it's a matter of being able to stabilize with a bonus action (as per the healer kit), then heal with an action (as per the Healer feat).

It does. Feat ability is not a defined term, so that has no impact on rules interactions. You're using a Healer's Kit item to do something that requires an action for its use, which is considered the Use an Object action, which Thief Rogues can do as a bonus action.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 05:16:37 pm

It would be fun to play a setting with no magical healing where rogues are the main healers, IMO.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 07, 2020, 05:18:51 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 07, 2020, 05:03:00 pm

Is it though? Technically it's a feat ability, not an item ability, and the Thief perk lets you "use an item" as a bonus action.

So I'd say it's a matter of being able to stabilize with a bonus action (as per the healer kit), then heal with an action (as per the Healer feat).

You are using an item to heal, much as you're using an item to stabilise.

Consider the wording of the default healer's kit.

Quote

As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 Hit Points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check.

vs the feat

Quote

As an action, you can spend one use of a healer's kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature's maximum number of Hit Dice.

Same as it's using an item to deploy caltrops.

Quote

As an action, you can spread a single bag of caltrops to cover a 5-foot-square area.

'As an action, you can do X' is just the wording they utilise for using an item, and so the feat applies.

Quote from: Persus13 on April 07, 2020, 05:14:53 pm

The funny thing is that Healing Spirit literally just got errataed to not be overpowered anymore.

Oh? What's the change?

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 05:16:37 pm

It would be fun to play a setting with no magical healing where rogues are the main healers, IMO.

You'd just have to rest after each combat, since you can only heal a person once per rest with the feat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 07, 2020, 05:25:48 pm

Healing Spirit only heals 1+ your spellcasting ability times before the spell ends. It was in the latest round of errata which released in the last week.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 05:30:54 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 07, 2020, 05:18:51 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 05:16:37 pm

It would be fun to play a setting with no magical healing where rogues are the main healers, IMO.

You'd just have to rest after each combat, since you can only heal a person once per rest with the feat.

Ideally the players shouldn't always have the option of long resting after each and every fight. Though that might make things way too hard if medkits are 1/long rest. Maybe you could make it cost Hit Dice or something along those lines.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 07, 2020, 06:30:44 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 07, 2020, 05:18:51 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 05:16:37 pm

It would be fun to play a setting with no magical healing where rogues are the main healers, IMO.

You'd just have to rest after each combat, since you can only heal a person once per rest with the feat.

You can still stabilize as long as you have healer's kit uses though, and unless you can heal a lot, bringing back people from 0 is the most important healing thing in combat.

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 05:30:54 pm

Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 07, 2020, 05:18:51 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 05:16:37 pm

It would be fun to play a setting with no magical healing where rogues are the main healers, IMO.

You'd just have to rest after each combat, since you can only heal a person once per rest with the feat.

Ideally the players shouldn't always have the option of long resting after each and every fight. Though that might make things way too hard if medkits are 1/long rest. Maybe you could make it cost Hit Dice or something along those lines.

Uh... Do you mean they shouldn't have the option of short resting after each fight?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 07, 2020, 06:42:06 pm

Is the healer perk short rest or long rest? A short rest would be more reasonable to lean on in a game without magical healers.
Oh right, you can't do it to the same person before they rest again, right? I was thinking that it was the healer can only do it once and then they have to rest again to use it on anyone else. That makes more sense. I could even see you getting by with one healer and recharging it with a long rest in that case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 07, 2020, 07:45:33 pm

Its any rest, short or long, on the person who got the healing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on April 07, 2020, 10:41:43 pm

I named my animal companion Swiftfoot, despite being a bird.

A bird.

Named Swiftfoot.

It was a bit of a snap decision at the end of the session, there are other options that might have been more interesting but I figured at the time that a flying creature would have the most utility. I didn't want to pick something so cliche, but the subset of animal companions available to a ranger is almost all cliches. No giant termites or sniper cactus for me.

I'm sure I'll grow to love him, once I have the required in-character downtime to teach him the tricks he's actually capable of.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 08, 2020, 01:43:52 am

Having a giant termite for an animal companion sounds like a great way to find yourself a solo adventurer ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 08, 2020, 07:23:30 am

Quote from: scriver on April 08, 2020, 01:43:52 am

Having a giant termite for an animal companion sounds like a great way to find yourself a solo adventurer ;)

Yeah. We want a giant tick, or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 08, 2020, 07:34:09 am

Also I don't see anything wrong with the silly name at all, lots of birds are swiftfooted. Swiftfeeted? Sweeftfeeteed?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 08, 2020, 07:59:30 am

Or you're just very likely to kick the thing if it misbehaves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 08, 2020, 10:54:25 am

Quote from: itisnotlogical on April 07, 2020, 10:41:43 pm

No giant termites or sniper cactus for me.

But you could have a sniper wolf!  Or a decoy octopus - well, squid.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 08, 2020, 10:56:04 am

If you're going for a sniper, wouldn't it be best to pick a nesting animal?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on April 08, 2020, 01:50:50 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on April 07, 2020, 10:41:43 pm

I named my animal companion Swiftfoot, despite being a bird.

A bird.

Named Swiftfoot.

It was a bit of a snap decision at the end of the session, there are other options that might have been more interesting but I figured at the time that a flying creature would have the most utility. I didn't want to pick something so cliche, but the subset of animal companions available to a ranger is almost all cliches. No giant termites or sniper cactus for me.

I'm sure I'll grow to love him, once I have the required in-character downtime to teach him the tricks he's actually capable of.

It makes sense if you make the bird a ostrich, but then it becomes strange if it can fly...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: itisnotlogical on April 08, 2020, 02:02:39 pm

An ostrich, particularly one that I could ride, would be dope. He's just an eagle though, and our fighter gets to keep lording is brand-new warhorse over the rest of us.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 08, 2020, 02:08:24 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on April 08, 2020, 02:02:39 pm

An ostrich, particularly one that I could ride, would be dope.

Like on atari?

Edit: I couldn't find a single good picture of the Joust Ostrich.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 08, 2020, 02:18:29 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on April 08, 2020, 02:02:39 pm

An ostrich, particularly one that I could ride, would be dope. He's just an eagle though, and our fighter gets to keep lording is brand-new warhorse over the rest of us.

A battle-trained ostrich is just a horny emu

(eagles are the best birds though. You could always rename it ;) )

_{call it "I will fucking order it to claw your horse's eyes out if you don't shut up, Fighterguy"}

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 08, 2020, 03:10:43 pm

Quote from: Iduno on April 08, 2020, 02:08:24 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on April 08, 2020, 02:02:39 pm

An ostrich, particularly one that I could ride, would be dope.

Like on atari?

Edit: I couldn't find a single good picture of the Joust Ostrich.

This count as good?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4hn0NN3TDGh7itGWUd6epClpQ5Q_lL85PLYPXb8-EHkAFJf0n1rYoAEegjMqjkgF3XSjxjjAbozIoQsOx2cSyVKpQCETQ-FuJqnG5s-MshTVFLeYXmtEky4skElzB_IOXe3g8TLr)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 08, 2020, 03:44:53 pm

Is that a motherfucking Joust reference

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 08, 2020, 04:52:23 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 08, 2020, 03:10:43 pm

Quote from: Iduno on April 08, 2020, 02:08:24 pm

Quote from: itisnotlogical on April 08, 2020, 02:02:39 pm

An ostrich, particularly one that I could ride, would be dope.

Like on atari?

Edit: I couldn't find a single good picture of the Joust Ostrich.

This count as good?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4hn0NN3TDGh7itGWUd6epClpQ5Q_lL85PLYPXb8-EHkAFJf0n1rYoAEegjMqjkgF3XSjxjjAbozIoQsOx2cSyVKpQCETQ-FuJqnG5s-MshTVFLeYXmtEky4skElzB_IOXe3g8TLr)

That's the stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 08, 2020, 08:20:31 pm

What determines if a creature is able to use a weapon or not? If you had a primate animal companion, could it use a bow or scimitar?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 08, 2020, 08:22:17 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 08, 2020, 08:20:31 pm

What determines if a creature is able to use a weapon or not? If you had a primate animal companion, could it use a bow or scimitar?

I don't think 5e RAW has anything on this, so probably the GM determines it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 08, 2020, 08:50:37 pm

I think that was a powerful 3.5 build - monkey familiar with a short sword.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 09, 2020, 08:37:37 am

I want a Halfling Paladin with an Ostritch mount

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 08, 2020, 08:20:31 pm

What determines if a creature is able to use a weapon or not? If you had a primate animal companion, could it use a bow or scimitar?

I don't think it would be too unrealistic for a monkey to wear a bow

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 09, 2020, 09:07:32 am

Quote from: scriver on April 09, 2020, 08:37:37 am

I don't think it would be too unrealistic for a monkey to wear a bow

Now that's some haute fucking couture...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 09, 2020, 10:12:19 am

Quote from: delphonso on April 08, 2020, 08:50:37 pm

I think that was a powerful 3.5 build - monkey familiar with a short sword.

I was trying to work in a Journey To The West reference, but got distracted by the idea of a monkey with an immovable rod.  I think there was a prestige class about aerial movement with immovable rods, but a monkey would practically have that naturally.

Anyway yeah monk (druid with Vow of Poverty?) with staff-wielding monkey companion, decked out in artifacts that make him a combat powerhouse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 09, 2020, 10:58:11 am

A monkey with two immovable rods, just monkey swinging his way across the sky

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 09, 2020, 11:21:59 am

What spell level in 5e Dnd would you say a spell that turns all sunlight near the caster into moonlight for 8 hours be?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 09, 2020, 11:44:27 am

Probably 2nd or 3rd, using the 2nd-level spell Darkness (which makes things dark for 10 minutes) as a template.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 09, 2020, 12:03:51 pm

I was just thinking such a spell would be pretty useful for a vampire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 09, 2020, 04:02:03 pm

Maybe 2nd level and it only lasts 10 minutes, but you can cast at certain higher levels to make it last longer. Being immune to sunlight for an entire day would be pretty powerful for a low level spell, IMO.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 09, 2020, 04:27:02 pm

If it was a vampire NPC I'd probably just handwave it.  He just has a spell that does that, asuming the vampire in question was a reasonably powerful spellcaster.  Or it could be a majic item that does it in which case what the vampire is, is rather irrelevant.

You'd only need to stat it if the players want it, which with the standard PC races, I'd kinda doubt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 09, 2020, 04:33:40 pm

That would also work as an at-will transformation for werebeasts, right? So long as they're out in the sun, at least.
Could actually make for a fun plot, about a werewolf which somehow attacks during the day.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:51 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 09, 2020, 04:33:40 pm

That would also work as an at-will transformation for werebeasts, right? So long as they're out in the sun, at least.
Could actually make for a fun plot, about a werewolf which somehow attacks during the day.

Am I misremembering, because I thought 5e werewolves have at-will transformations even in the day-time if they embrace the curse?
Or am I thinking of other werewolves?

The stat blocks I can find don't mention any restriction on transformation at least.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 09, 2020, 07:53:31 pm

Even the unwilling transformation probably isn't triggered by moonlight. After all, it occurs even if the victim is indoors and the Moonbeam spell, which is a concentrated death ray of moonlight, actually forces shapechangers into their original forms.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 09, 2020, 07:58:47 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:51 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 09, 2020, 04:33:40 pm

That would also work as an at-will transformation for werebeasts, right? So long as they're out in the sun, at least.
Could actually make for a fun plot, about a werewolf which somehow attacks during the day.

Am I misremembering, because I thought 5e werewolves have at-will transformations even in the day-time if they embrace the curse?
Or am I thinking of other werewolves?

The stat blocks I can find don't mention any restriction on transformation at least.

Dunno about 5e fluff but before there were two types of lycanthrope.  Natural ones were born as werewolves, and could change shape whenever they felt like it, and could also take on a hybrid bipedal beast form.

The other type were afflicted types, who became werewolves by getting bit or cursed.  They follow the typical werewolf lore.  They are forced to change cyclically, and generally cannot control themselves in animal form.

I think stress or high damage could also force an afflicted werewolf to change into an animal as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 09, 2020, 09:50:33 pm

Werewolf lore has changed multiple times over the editions. I believe but am not certain that 5e lore generally follows 3.0's werewolf lore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 19, 2020, 04:38:55 am

I'm writing a 5e Druid cass guide for the Enworld forums. Any interest in me dropping it here first for some feedback? The Emworld crowd is...over passionate about this kind of thing and I'd rather get some friendly notes from here first.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 19, 2020, 05:16:48 am

I can't promise I'll be much help, but I'll read it if you do ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 19, 2020, 08:14:21 am

Well, I just lost all the work I put in on the races (which took about 3 hours since they're across so many damn books) so... might take a while.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2020, 08:33:04 am

Yeah drop it here, I could spare a few minutes or two. Also how do you guys do goblins? /tg/ DMs general rule of thumb is never let your players give the goblins names. The moment they have names the entire campaign becomes derailed

In my current campaign, there is an awakening deity about to end the world. All of our party are instead pursuing a quest to make our adopted goblin stronger, and are fighting over whether a mechanical cat is in fact, a murder weapon, or a normal clockwork cat

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 19, 2020, 08:46:47 am

if not a murder weapon, what else would a normal cat be?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on April 19, 2020, 08:51:13 am

I run games in Eberron, so goblins are a pretty normal part of society other than they have their own nation. The exceptions are the ones who remember they used to rule the continent long before the humans showed up. And those ones usually have names of they're own they're very proud to have, so I've yet to have that problem.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 19, 2020, 09:39:55 am

Yeah but Eberron goblins aren't goblins, they're just elves

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 19, 2020, 10:52:31 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2020, 08:33:04 am

Yeah drop it here, I could spare a few minutes or two. Also how do you guys do goblins? /tg/ DMs general rule of thumb is never let your players give the goblins names. The moment they have names the entire campaign becomes derailed

I reckon this only really applies if your goblins are goofy and zany, as in Pathfinder, Warcraft, and to a lesser extent things like M:tG and Warhammer, which have a slightly subtler sense of humor. If you don't treat a goblin as a free ticket to chaos, then they're just an ordinary race. The problem is a lot of people see anything smaller than a dwarf as a mandate to veer of into lolsorandumb shitpost type behavior, and that has a tendency to undermine games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on April 19, 2020, 11:13:21 am

Quote from: Cruxador on April 19, 2020, 10:52:31 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2020, 08:33:04 am

Yeah drop it here, I could spare a few minutes or two. Also how do you guys do goblins? /tg/ DMs general rule of thumb is never let your players give the goblins names. The moment they have names the entire campaign becomes derailed

I reckon this only really applies if your goblins are goofy and zany, as in Pathfinder, Warcraft, and to a lesser extent things like M:tG and Warhammer, which have a slightly subtler sense of humor. If you don't treat a goblin as a free ticket to chaos, then they're just an ordinary race. The problem is a lot of people see anything smaller than a dwarf as a mandate to veer of into lolsorandumb shitpost type behavior, and that has a tendency to undermine games.

I think there's also a worry about the players adopting them. Since they're usually trash mobs for early adventurers, they're not a threat at higher levels, and they're usually intelligent to a degree that belies "always chaotic evil" or similar moral handwaves. That they are often ugly cute is a further inducement to try to redeem them and/or keep them as pets.

My players have historically been addicted to this kind of thing, and I've learned to turn it into a plot hook. If the players are still too unimportant for the BBEG to intervene in their affairs, their adoptees can trip over the plot (sometimes literally) and get lost trying to follow it, at which point the party will hare off looking for them; if, on the other hand, they've been derailed from an extant plot, it's easy enough to have a plot-relevant villain arrange for their mascots and adoptees and other hangers-on to be kidnapped "to send a message." The party will naturally chase after them as before, only now you can have them discover the horribly mangled remains of the aforementioned cute monsters at an appropriately climactic moment, accompanied by some indication that they were casually tortured to death for whatever reason will infuriate the party most. (You might be tempted to have the villain have the adoptees turned into suicide weapons. While having their wards run happily towards the party only to explode mid-tearful-reunion-hug is certainly impactful, in my experience it leads into trying to get them raised first and foremost. Turning them into undead is somewhat safer in this regard, if you can pull off the reveal.)

In any event, the party will almost certainly carry on through to final victory out of revenge at that point. Problem solved.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 19, 2020, 11:33:14 am

Quote from: Trekkin on April 19, 2020, 11:13:21 am

Quote from: Cruxador on April 19, 2020, 10:52:31 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 19, 2020, 08:33:04 am

Yeah drop it here, I could spare a few minutes or two. Also how do you guys do goblins? /tg/ DMs general rule of thumb is never let your players give the goblins names. The moment they have names the entire campaign becomes derailed

I reckon this only really applies if your goblins are goofy and zany, as in Pathfinder, Warcraft, and to a lesser extent things like M:tG and Warhammer, which have a slightly subtler sense of humor. If you don't treat a goblin as a free ticket to chaos, then they're just an ordinary race. The problem is a lot of people see anything smaller than a dwarf as a mandate to veer of into lolsorandumb shitpost type behavior, and that has a tendency to undermine games.

I think there's also a worry about the players adopting them. Since they're usually trash mobs for early adventurers, they're not a threat at higher levels, and they're usually intelligent to a degree that belies "always chaotic evil" or similar moral handwaves. That they are often ugly cute is a further inducement to try to redeem them and/or keep them as pets.

My players have historically been addicted to this kind of thing, and I've learned to turn it into a plot hook. If the players are still too unimportant for the BBEG to intervene in their affairs, their adoptees can trip over the plot (sometimes literally) and get lost trying to follow it, at which point the party will hare off looking for them; if, on the other hand, they've been derailed from an extant plot, it's easy enough to have a plot-relevant villain arrange for their mascots and adoptees and other hangers-on to be kidnapped "to send a message." The party will naturally chase after them as before, only now you can have them discover the horribly mangled remains of the aforementioned cute monsters at an appropriately climactic moment, accompanied by some indication that they were casually tortured to death for whatever reason will infuriate the party most. (You might be tempted to have the villain have the adoptees turned into suicide weapons. While having their wards run happily towards the party only to explode mid-tearful-reunion-hug is certainly impactful, in my experience it leads into trying to get them raised first and foremost. Turning them into undead is somewhat safer in this regard, if you can pull off the reveal.)

In any event, the party will almost certainly carry on through to final victory out of revenge at that point. Problem solved.

I wouldn't consider hirelings and cohorts to be a derail in the first place. Or a slave, which I reckon is an accurate blanket term for the kind of mascot/pet that doesn't fall into those categories. It's a plothook as you say, but can also be a tool if the character has some skills or magic that the players lack. Mind you, my group isn't afraid to put NPCs in danger except in the campaign where we went "let's be good for once" in which case refugees are to be delivered to safety, not used as slave soldiers, so I can't say that I have a ton of experience with cherished mascots.

I'll also say that, among those plothooks, I'm not a fan of destroying what the players love by act of fiat. Whether in the game or out of it, punishing people for caring about things strikes me as a bit cruel. Life does that enough by itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 19, 2020, 12:47:23 pm

Where's that story about the stuffed tarrasque and the black dragon breath?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 19, 2020, 06:30:20 pm

I encourage players to get attached to NPCs. Generally, my games end up with three or four characters in supporting roles, while the heroes are center stage. To make it not take ridiculous time, or subtract from the plot, these characters often have easy, short-term goals and then basically insurmountable long term goals. I've had NPCs even tell the players "alright, I'm going to spend the next month in the library figuring out what to do next. Thanks, I really appreciate your help."

If players continue to mess with that NPC, they're being dicks. It's a little more difficult for the chaotic goblin, but the same premise can be figured out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 20, 2020, 06:29:05 am

Quote from: delphonso on April 19, 2020, 06:30:20 pm

It's a little more difficult for the chaotic goblin, but the same premise can be figured out.

"Alright, I'm going to spend the next month in this ditch figuring out how far up I can pick my nose. Thanks, I really appreciate your help"


I've had a character concept for a while that's basically just a disenfranchised noble Warlock, so he's got two loyal (for whatever reason) retainers and a petulant imp as side-characters to interact and squabble with. The idea was planned for a potential campaign a friend was thinking of putting together for me and someone else, so with only two PCs I thought it might be fun (and wouldn't require stealing the spotlight too much) to bring some NPCs along for inter-party roleplay.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 20, 2020, 07:04:18 pm

You know, I wonder what a party could do with a cloak of invisibility that is only itself invisible, it doesn't make anything else invisible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 20, 2020, 07:33:14 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 20, 2020, 07:04:18 pm

You know, I wonder what a party could do with a cloak of invisibility that is only itself invisible, it doesn't make anything else invisible.

Do you mean a shroud they have to hide behind?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 20, 2020, 08:42:07 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 20, 2020, 07:04:18 pm

You know, I wonder what a party could do with a cloak of invisibility that is only itself invisible, it doesn't make anything else invisible.

Go streaking in the arctic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on April 20, 2020, 10:41:51 pm

Traps. Walking face first into an invisible cloak stretched across a doorway while you're focusing on your unconscious marks on the other side would probably surprise you into stumbling into a more lethal trap.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 20, 2020, 11:54:15 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 20, 2020, 06:29:05 am

Quote from: delphonso on April 19, 2020, 06:30:20 pm

It's a little more difficult for the chaotic goblin, but the same premise can be figured out.

"Alright, I'm going to spend the next month in this ditch figuring out how far up I can pick my nose. Thanks, I really appreciate your help".

That's important research and someone's got to do it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 21, 2020, 11:13:55 am

Quote from: delphonso on April 20, 2020, 11:54:15 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 20, 2020, 06:29:05 am

Quote from: delphonso on April 19, 2020, 06:30:20 pm

It's a little more difficult for the chaotic goblin, but the same premise can be figured out.

"Alright, I'm going to spend the next month in this ditch figuring out how far up I can pick my nose. Thanks, I really appreciate your help".

That's important research and someone's got to do it.

So important that the international community assigned 70 million people to research it for four years around the beginning of the last century.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 21, 2020, 01:02:54 pm

The movie discussion thread has given me the terrible idea to have a series of NPC hackers in the same way Spinal Tap had a series of drummers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 21, 2020, 06:35:10 pm

What's a light game between Lasers and Feelings and DnD? I'm planning to introduce gaming to my girlfriend, and think a ruleset between those two would be ideal.

Dungeon World, maybe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on April 21, 2020, 09:33:47 pm

Quote from: Iduno on April 21, 2020, 01:02:54 pm

The movie discussion thread has given me the terrible idea to have a series of NPC hackers in the same way Spinal Tap had a series of drummers.

Augmented Reality (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/202175/Augmented-Reality-The-Holistic-City-Kit-For-Cyberpunk-Games) should help you with that, in addition to most other cyberpunk random table related needs you might have.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 21, 2020, 09:42:14 pm

Quote from: delphonso on April 21, 2020, 06:35:10 pm

What's a light game between Lasers and Feelings and DnD? I'm planning to introduce gaming to my girlfriend, and think a ruleset between those two would be ideal.

Dungeon World, maybe?

Like, most of them? For a game that claims to be rules-light, the newest edition of D&D has the most pages of rules of any edition of D&D (and significantly more, considering you need a 3.x book for half of the rules that are referenced but never written down), and the other fits on a notecard.

It's probably easiest to start with where her interests lie, and find a game like that. Much easier to get into roleplaying when your imagination is already engaged. Fantasy? Space? Heists? Knock-off X-men?

Gloomhaven or something similar might work if the storytelling part is difficult.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 22, 2020, 03:10:40 am

I'm always interested in new adventure ideas, and sometimes I draw on other game media to give me inspiration. Battle Royale style shooters, for example, work great for a campaign with a hex grid exploration map component, where the 'storm' circle might be anything from a literal storm to an invading army.

Also, dungeon design. As someone who homebrews a lot of content, making interesting maps is hard! Especially when working with a 2D surface and whiteboard markers. For all its faults, one of the things I admire about Bethesda is their map design teams. Some of the locations in Fallout 4, suitably reskinned, would be awesome as a dungeon map. They use a lot of vertical space and layering of features to accomplish a lot within their levels. The real difficulty is translating this into a 2D surface.

Honestly, I've been tempted during all the lockdowns to start an arts and crafts project to build 3D tactical maps for my games. With cardboard, paint and glue, the possibilities are endless. Trouble being I work in healthcare so free time is at a premium, and I don't really have a workspace to start my hobby.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 22, 2020, 11:27:26 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 22, 2020, 03:10:40 am

Also, dungeon design. As someone who homebrews a lot of content, making interesting maps is hard! Especially when working with a 2D surface and whiteboard markers. For all its faults, one of the things I admire about Bethesda is their map design teams. Some of the locations in Fallout 4, suitably reskinned, would be awesome as a dungeon map. They use a lot of vertical space and layering of features to accomplish a lot within their levels. The real difficulty is translating this into a 2D surface.

You could try popping a classic Doom level into an editor like Doombuilder.  Doom levels are basically 2D floor plans extruded into 3D anyways.  Doom levels are pretty abstract, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 22, 2020, 01:10:49 pm

Yeah my understanding is that the engine doesn't support overhangs, so Doom levels map very well to a 2D map.  Even when they simulate multiple floors using teleporters, the floors are actually alongside each other map-style.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 22, 2020, 02:23:20 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 22, 2020, 03:10:40 am

Also, dungeon design. As someone who homebrews a lot of content, making interesting maps is hard! Especially when working with a 2D surface and whiteboard markers. For all its faults, one of the things I admire about Bethesda is their map design teams. Some of the locations in Fallout 4, suitably reskinned, would be awesome as a dungeon map. They use a lot of vertical space and layering of features to accomplish a lot within their levels. The real difficulty is translating this into a 2D surface.

The one who programs their ingame map drawer don't seem to think it was any hard ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 22, 2020, 03:46:43 pm

I'm thinking back to the way they implemented the skill system in 3rd edition, and the range of DCs for Diplomacy, for example, was 1-50. That's way into the realm of "you must be this tall to ride."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 22, 2020, 06:53:41 pm

Quote from: Iduno on April 21, 2020, 09:42:14 pm

It's probably easiest to start with where her interests lie, and find a game like that. Much easier to get into roleplaying when your imagination is already engaged. Fantasy? Space? Heists? Knock-off X-men?

Gloomhaven or something similar might work if the storytelling part is difficult.

Fair, DnD seems simple to me since I've played it so long, but yeah, it's not really a stream lined system. Interest is Indiana Jones/Lara Croft style tomb raiding, which luckily can fit in almost any setting. Rules need to be pretty light as A. She's pregnant and uninterested in any mentally taxing work right now, and B. She's played exactly two video games and almost zero board games.

I'll keep looking around.

Quote from: Iduno on April 22, 2020, 03:46:43 pm

I'm thinking back to the way they implemented the skill system in 3rd edition, and the range of DCs for Diplomacy, for example, was 1-50. That's way into the realm of "you must be this tall to ride."

Skills being more general in 5e was what actually brought me around to it. I love Shadowrun's list of 50 specific skills, but in 3.x DnD, the limits on skills seemed to discourage wider role play and encourage fighting. But we played woth a rule from some book that was "if you don't have skills in it, you can't roll it."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 22, 2020, 07:06:56 pm

Quote from: Iduno on April 22, 2020, 03:46:43 pm

I'm thinking back to the way they implemented the skill system in 3rd edition, and the range of DCs for Diplomacy, for example, was 1-50. That's way into the realm of "you must be this tall to ride."

The Diplomacy skill is quite OP RAW, particularly if you're using the Book of Exalted Deeds recommendations about full XP for negotiating a combat.  As the creator of Order Of The Stick points out, it's essentially an uncontested and unmodified mind control roll in most situations (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?172910-Articles-Previously-Appearing-on-GiantITP-com).

My first DND character was a diplomacy-focused druid using Book of Exalted Deeds, notably Vow of Poverty.  While I wasn't allowed to dodge most fights (often due to the threats being undead) I did manage to talk my way out of a few notable conflicts intended for my character.  To the chagrin of my party, sometimes.  I walked away from obvious boss fights that we absolutely would have won, hoping that I left a good impression on the villains key to my backstory.  They didn't generally change, but I liked to think they would.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 22, 2020, 08:27:24 pm

Currently I'm designing a dungeon full of incredibly lethal things that will kill you if you try to fight them, but are otherwise nullified/bypassed/exploited with the right foresight. Right now I've got basic stuff like floor lava and a monster that will always shuffle towards you but will otherwise never run, as well as two undead soldiers who can be convinced you are their superior officer with the right uniform & performance. What else are some fun dungeon ideas that would be fun to beat as a player? I'm thinking things like a sphynx, where yeah you can fight them, or you can solve their riddles

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2020, 08:48:39 pm

Far Realm anthropologists who are very bad at hiding due to visual spectrum differences but will be increasingly upset if the party acknowledges they can see them.

Haunted statues who eat failed skill checks in their presence, becoming more animate and akin to the party as they feed. Place these in inconvenient areas to encourage skill checks. They are jealous of the party's softness, which as statues they can never imitate.

There's a pit fiend here, but he's on vacation. He acts exactly like how you'd think a lawful evil tourist would. Colorful fireproof shirts.

The most annoying puzzle of all time, the Towers of Hanoi. This one is too large to be realistically finished before the heat death of the universe, but don't tell the party that. They're actually supposed to just open the door, which is incredibly imposing and made of solid steel but unlocked.

Meta-monster inside the dungeon wall space, doesn't like the players rather than the characters and inflicts confusion or stun on characters to separate them from the players if encountered. Uses this time to reseal the wall.

Libertarian vampires who are compelled not to violate the NAP and thus try to contract the party's blood, or else provoke them into violating the NAP first. Believe strongly in the right to bear arms and as such are heavily armed and armored, which they lose if they turn into a bat or mist.

Dozens of normal cows enchanted to be invisible except to each other, kept in a large underground barn. The bulls have an average amount of aggression. One of the cows is a stunningly perfect cow, just real instant prizewinner-tier, if you could see it.

An ornate treasure room with a permanent Heat Metal spell on it and no ventilation, just below the melting point of gold.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 22, 2020, 09:04:22 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 22, 2020, 01:10:49 pm

Yeah my understanding is that the engine doesn't support overhangs, so Doom levels map very well to a 2D map.  Even when they simulate multiple floors using teleporters, the floors are actually alongside each other map-style.

That's pretty much how it works.  In the editor, Doombuilder, you basically draw out shapes for rooms and doors, and then give the shapes properties for floor and ceiling height, and textures and lighting.  Its basically what the player sees in the automap screen.  I'd say the only issue directly putting it to DnD grid is that doors and such have thickness (they are just small rooms really) and so you'd have to adapt them to better fit a grid.

Janky bridges are possible in the doom engine, like Plutonia map02, or the mods Hell Revealed 1 or 2.  I don't know exactly how they work, but generally monsters can't interact with the bridge.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 05:14:13 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on April 22, 2020, 08:48:39 pm

Far Realm anthropologists who are very bad at hiding due to visual spectrum differences but will be increasingly upset if the party acknowledges they can see them.

Haunted statues who eat failed skill checks in their presence, becoming more animate and akin to the party as they feed. Place these in inconvenient areas to encourage skill checks. They are jealous of the party's softness, which as statues they can never imitate.

There's a pit fiend here, but he's on vacation. He acts exactly like how you'd think a lawful evil tourist would. Colorful fireproof shirts.

The most annoying puzzle of all time, the Towers of Hanoi. This one is too large to be realistically finished before the heat death of the universe, but don't tell the party that. They're actually supposed to just open the door, which is incredibly imposing and made of solid steel but unlocked.

Meta-monster inside the dungeon wall space, doesn't like the players rather than the characters and inflicts confusion or stun on characters to separate them from the players if encountered. Uses this time to reseal the wall.

Libertarian vampires who are compelled not to violate the NAP and thus try to contract the party's blood, or else provoke them into violating the NAP first. Believe strongly in the right to bear arms and as such are heavily armed and armored, which they lose if they turn into a bat or mist.

Dozens of normal cows enchanted to be invisible except to each other, kept in a large underground barn. The bulls have an average amount of aggression. One of the cows is a stunningly perfect cow, just real instant prizewinner-tier, if you could see it.

An ornate treasure room with a permanent Heat Metal spell on it and no ventilation, just below the melting point of gold.

Those are all absolutely amazing

*EDIT
This libertarian vampire is going to become a recurring shopkeeper, he's just so perfect. Currently he'll sell high-value weapons if party members can provide ID & blood, and they also have a bunch of other quest related or novel items like a jar of dirt with a lich's heart in it, or an incredibly aggressive monarch butterfly that whispers wisdom/death threats in your ear, enchanted coffee beans, a magic 8 ball and the invisible cow herd

*EDITx2
Also added a basilisk that is wearing a gigantic pair of sunglasses. Mostly harmless, it will however block passage though the hallway unless the adventurers are brave enough to remove a bone stuck in its gums

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 06:35:24 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 22, 2020, 08:27:24 pm

Currently I'm designing a dungeon full of incredibly lethal things that will kill you if you try to fight them, but are otherwise nullified/bypassed/exploited with the right foresight. Right now I've got basic stuff like floor lava and a monster that will always shuffle towards you but will otherwise never run, as well as two undead soldiers who can be convinced you are their superior officer with the right uniform & performance. What else are some fun dungeon ideas that would be fun to beat as a player? I'm thinking things like a sphynx, where yeah you can fight them, or you can solve their riddles

The Sensorium of Exquisite Experiences tests your five senses (taste, sight, touch, smell and sound) to bypass a barrier leading to their treasure hoard. (Imagine a sphere of darkness and silence where you have to unlock a lock by touch, or putting disgusting objects into your mouth to taste them and see if they match the opposite object. Creative skill or ability checks or saving throws might be required to pass the test.)

The altar of the Golden Emperor lies within a small shrine. Living creatures on the altar have their flesh transformed into solid gold. The effect wears off 8 hours after being removed from the altar or being removed from the shrine. The altar currently has a solid gold statue of (insert dangerous creature) on top. Treat damage to gold statues as per the Stone to Flesh spell.

An underground gnome village have developed a unique means of defending their home. At the heart of the village lies an artifact that transforms all creatures into living hollow terracotta replicas of themselves when within its borders. Aggressive outsiders are quickly smashed to pieces by clever traps. The gnomes are peace-loving, and have developed their home into a beautiful underground garden.

The workshop of Jymbro the muscle wizard houses a range of large, arcane torture tools. It's said those who can correctly endure their use may gain temporary boons to their abilities, though for most trying them, it merely ends in sweat, pain, tears and low self-esteem.

Honest Relaet's Curse Free Magic Item Dungeon Shoppe! (No Refunds)

Cursed magic melee weapon. Becomes 1 lbs heavier each time you attack with it, can't be removed when wielded without a Remove Curse or sacrificing an equal weight in flesh (lower maximum hp per lb sacrificed until restored via GM's means of choice such as Restoration or Regenerate spell).

Cursed magic ranged weapon. After first being fired, the wielder is rendered permanently blind unless cured with a Remove Blindness or Remove Curse spell. Their sight returns when the weapon is loaded with ammunition, but from the perspective of the ammunition instead. Once an attack is resolved or if the weapon's ammunition is removed from contact with the weapon, their blindness returns.

Cursed magic wand. After 24 hours in user's possession, wand comes alive and burrows into their body. Unless removed with a Remove Curse or invasive surgery, each time the victim casts a spell, there's a 50% chance of them casting the wand's spell at their target instead, strengthening enemies or harming allies as appropriate. The wand drains the host to maintain its magic, inflicting hit point damage equal to the caster level of the wand's spell when activated.

Cursed magic armor. Consumes user's life force when equipped. Each day the wearer ages one year older. May cause age category advancement and appropriate changes to stats depending on racial average lifespans. Can only be removed using Remove Curse or by sacrificing the life of a young humanoid creature and applying their lifeblood to the armor before removing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 23, 2020, 08:21:22 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 06:35:24 am

Cursed magic ranged weapon. After first being fired, the wielder is rendered permanently blind unless cured with a Remove Blindness or Remove Curse spell. Their sight returns when the weapon is loaded with ammunition, but from the perspective of the ammunition instead. Once an attack is resolved or if the weapon's ammunition is removed from contact with the weapon, their blindness returns.

If you manage to uncurse the ranged weapon, you can voluntarily take the perspective of the bolt while firing it, which can be useful for reconnaissance especially if no one in the party can cast Find Familiar.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 23, 2020, 08:28:14 am

The melee weapon sounds like the DF adventurer mode technique of hitting people with a coffin, then putting all your victim's corpses inside of it so that it becomes heavier and does more damage. So pure awesome and not a curse at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 23, 2020, 09:00:57 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 23, 2020, 08:28:14 am

The melee weapon sounds like the DF adventurer mode technique of hitting people with a coffin, then putting all your victim's corpses inside of it so that it becomes heavier and does more damage. So pure awesome and not a curse at all.

Except simply being heavier is not a good thing for your weapon in DnD, unlike DF.
Now, if when it got heavier, it got more damage dice, THAT would be awesome.
As it is, they'll eventually become way over encumbered if they held it and won't even be able to drag it around, plus they can't put the weapon down. Imagine if you couldn't put something that weighs 9 pounds down and it was always attached to your hand.
A dagger or whatever your rogue or other Dex-based melee warrior likes would be a good way to make this hit them hard, since they'll be encumbered quicker. Then again, a two-handed weapon would prevent the use of two hands.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 23, 2020, 09:15:21 am

Wouldn't it be more fun if it dealt more damage, though? Don't tell me that a straight sword which weighs as much as a fully grown large half-orc wouldn't do some real damage if you were strong enough to use it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 09:25:51 am

I actually like that idea for a separate custom magic item!

Scythe of Heavy Deeds

This +1 scythe always deals a base of 2d4 damage and weighs 10 lbs, even when sized for larger or smaller creatures, but grows heavier with the burden of use. Each time the scythe strikes a killing blow against a living creature with an intelligence score of 3 or greater, the scythe's weight increases by 1 lb. Every 5 lbs of additional weight increases the damage dice of the weapon by an additional 1d4 damage. If the scythe remains unused for more than 24 hours, the weight resets, and the additional damage dice are lost.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 23, 2020, 09:34:48 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 23, 2020, 09:15:21 am

Wouldn't it be more fun if it dealt more damage, though? Don't tell me that a straight sword which weighs as much as a fully grown large half-orc wouldn't do some real damage if you were strong enough to use it.

But how strong should you have to be able to wield that?
That means just by the weapon alone you are encumbered with 20 strength.
I don't think a 20 strength character would be able to swing it fast enough to hit easily, so maybe it takes two attacks to use and hits at disadvantage?

Quote from: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 09:25:51 am

I actually like that idea for a separate custom magic item!

Scythe of Heavy Deeds

This +1 scythe always deals a base of 2d4 damage and weighs 10 lbs, even when sized for larger or smaller creatures, but grows heavier with the burden of use. Each time the scythe strikes a killing blow against a living creature with an intelligence score of 3 or greater, the scythe's weight increases by 1 lb. Every 5 lbs of additional weight increases the damage dice of the weapon by an additional 1d4 damage. If the scythe remains unused for more than 24 hours, the weight resets, and the additional damage dice are lost.

There should probably be a max damage, or your player could eventually do 75d4 damage just so long as it's used in battle once a day. As stated, it doesn't even need to kill anything during that time, so spar once a day, and in times of war get a ridiculous amount of damage.
Admittedly, it gets unusable at 301 pounds so you have to let it reset then.

EDIT:I just watched the first episodes of Saga of Tanya the Evil.
How about a cursed weapon that attaches to their hand that does 0 damage unless they pray to whichever God they and their allies least like?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 23, 2020, 10:01:12 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 23, 2020, 08:21:22 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 06:35:24 am

Cursed magic ranged weapon. After first being fired, the wielder is rendered permanently blind unless cured with a Remove Blindness or Remove Curse spell. Their sight returns when the weapon is loaded with ammunition, but from the perspective of the ammunition instead. Once an attack is resolved or if the weapon's ammunition is removed from contact with the weapon, their blindness returns.

If you manage to uncurse the ranged weapon, you can voluntarily take the perspective of the bolt while firing it, which can be useful for reconnaissance especially if no one in the party can cast Find Familiar.

A Bow that makes you blind except when you nock an arrow would actually be a really cool weapon. For characterisation, I mean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 23, 2020, 10:09:20 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 09:25:51 am

I actually like that idea for a separate custom magic item!

Scythe of Heavy Deeds

This +1 scythe always deals a base of 2d4 damage and weighs 10 lbs, even when sized for larger or smaller creatures, but grows heavier with the burden of use. Each time the scythe strikes a killing blow against a living creature with an intelligence score of 3 or greater, the scythe's weight increases by 1 lb. Every 5 lbs of additional weight increases the damage dice of the weapon by an additional 1d4 damage. If the scythe remains unused for more than 24 hours, the weight resets, and the additional damage dice are lost.

I think that the weight/damage increase should be permanent but only applies per-character, rather than resetting after a day. The weight of your actions cannot be so easily discarded.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 23, 2020, 10:10:19 am

Heeeyoo

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 11:11:54 am

Yeah, poorly worded. My intent was that if the scythe doesn't take a life in 24 hours it resets, not that you can keep the bonus by sparring.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 23, 2020, 12:00:55 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 11:11:54 am

Yeah, poorly worded. My intent was that if the scythe doesn't take a life in 24 hours it resets, not that you can keep the bonus by sparring.

That's still overpowered, but means have extra incentive to kill every being you can find that you don't find morally wrong to kill.
Would killing someone only to revivify them work?

Also, LordWhispers how about adding a very strong creature that is sworn to kill all men and never kill a woman, or something like that?
In order to get around it all the men in the party have to have an illusion over them, or cross-dress and hope the creature doesn't notice that they're men.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 03:32:18 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 06:35:24 am

The workshop of Jymbro the muscle wizard houses a range of large, arcane torture tools. It's said those who can correctly endure their use may gain temporary boons to their abilities, though for most trying them, it merely ends in sweat, pain, tears and low self-esteem.

Not gonna lie, I've been waiting for an excuse to force my players to endure the passion of the crossfit, where they must absolutely blast their abs for the sins of mankind

Quote from: Jimmy on April 23, 2020, 06:35:24 am

Honest Relaet's Curse Free Magic Item Dungeon Shoppe! (No Refunds)

All good, though for cursed range item I'd swap it for a boomerang that always comes back to you when thrown (but it will always hit you on the back of the head. Always).

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 23, 2020, 12:00:55 pm

Also, LordWhispers how about adding a very strong creature that is sworn to kill all men and never kill a woman, or something like that?
In order to get around it all the men in the party have to have an illusion over them, or cross-dress and hope the creature doesn't notice that they're men.

One of my players is playing a PC Paladin who will no doubt successfully argue that the monster is just being incredibly rude by assuming they are all men based off their appearance, so I think this will fit perfectly

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2020, 03:48:29 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 03:32:18 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 23, 2020, 12:00:55 pm

Also, LordWhispers how about adding a very strong creature that is sworn to kill all men and never kill a woman, or something like that?
In order to get around it all the men in the party have to have an illusion over them, or cross-dress and hope the creature doesn't notice that they're men.

One of my players is playing a PC Paladin who will no doubt successfully argue that the monster is just being incredibly rude by assuming they are all men based off their appearance, so I think this will fit perfectly

Let's hope libertarian vampire merchant doesn't overhear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 03:50:29 pm

You all take 1d8 political damage as he hands out copious sums of his literature`

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on April 23, 2020, 03:53:09 pm

A fun thing I realized is that the other libertarian stereotype also applies here depending on the age of the vampire.

"What if the mortal consents, though?" "He's only 35, you disgusting freak!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 04:04:16 pm

Throw in the ancap memes for good measure so he's got a roomba that is powered by the souls it has vacuumed within

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 24, 2020, 09:27:44 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 04:04:16 pm

Throw in the ancap memes for good measure so he's got a roomba that is powered by the souls it has vacuumed within

Are anarchocapitalists known for their tendency to vacuum up souls?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 24, 2020, 09:35:03 am

Quote from: Cruxador on April 24, 2020, 09:27:44 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 04:04:16 pm

Throw in the ancap memes for good measure so he's got a roomba that is powered by the souls it has vacuumed within

Are anarchocapitalists known for their tendency to vacuum up souls?

It's free real estate

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2020, 12:01:59 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 24, 2020, 09:27:44 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 04:04:16 pm

Throw in the ancap memes for good measure so he's got a roomba that is powered by the souls it has vacuumed within

Are anarchocapitalists known for their tendency to vacuum up souls?

It's more uploading the souls of their children into roombas so they may be served for all eternity without violating the NAP

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 24, 2020, 12:04:43 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2020, 12:01:59 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 24, 2020, 09:27:44 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2020, 04:04:16 pm

Throw in the ancap memes for good measure so he's got a roomba that is powered by the souls it has vacuumed within

Are anarchocapitalists known for their tendency to vacuum up souls?

It's more uploading the souls of their children into roombas so they may be served for all eternity without violating the NAP

Non-Aggression Pact?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 24, 2020, 12:05:18 pm

Anarchocapitalist parents take NAP-time very seriously

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2020, 04:33:28 pm

Don't fuck with the sleep gang unless you wanna get COMFY

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on April 26, 2020, 07:00:27 pm

Has anyone ever used the concept of Hospitium/Guest Rights in a game? I'm thinking it might be fun to have a setting where all the magical creatures and true spellcasters are bound by a tradition of hospitality and have to be hospitable to anyone who comes to them in peace and behaves according to the expectations of a guest, and mortals mostly uphold the same tradition for various reasons.

The biggest issue I can think of is that if the players ever broke the obligations expected of them as guests or as hosts then basically every magical being would have cause to mistrust them as well as any mortals who found out, which does feel like it might be resented.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on April 26, 2020, 07:19:45 pm

Sounds like an L5R thing. I'm working on a home adapted Al-Qadim setting, and when I was going over the rules for honor, piety, etc, it felt more limiting than fun. I'd probably try to follow it as a player, but don't want to be punished for slipping up. And yeah, would be resentful if a slip up put every interaction at a disadvantage from then on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 27, 2020, 03:27:00 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on April 26, 2020, 07:00:27 pm

Has anyone ever used the concept of Hospitium/Guest Rights in a game?

That's basically the premise of every game that involves a noble's ballroom dance or social party. Nobody's allowed to kill each other and must follow the rules of society.

Inevitably, the game will end up with the entire party murdering as many guests as possible and looting their corpses for the fancy outfits.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 27, 2020, 06:12:48 am

You have to make it a party at some Fey Lord's mansion. And then have a murder mystery.

Spoiler: The murderer is the mansion itself

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 27, 2020, 07:30:33 am

Quote from: scriver on April 27, 2020, 06:12:48 am

You have to make it a party at some Fey Lord's mansion. And then have a murder mystery.

Spoiler: The murderer is the mansion itself

Fey Lord: Wait a second. This isn't my address! This isn't my house! It's a mimic!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 27, 2020, 07:39:25 am

A festive ball at an upscale estate is thrown into chaos as a gruesome murder is discovered, with no apparent culprit. Mayhem ensues as the various guests lose their sense of decorum while hurling accusations (and worse) at their fellow partygoers. The night devolves further as suspicions and paranoia merge with old rivalries and the bodycount starts to rise, but the original killer remains infuriatingly unknown.


The twist: It wasn't a murder at all, just some poor sap who ended up killing themselves in a terrifically gruesome manner by accident.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 27, 2020, 09:24:35 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 27, 2020, 07:39:25 am

The twist: It wasn't a murder at all, just some poor sap who ended up killing themselves in a terrifically gruesome manner by accident.

Interesting twist, but I'm not sure how the players would ever be able to determine that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 27, 2020, 09:30:12 am

Quote from: Iduno on April 27, 2020, 09:24:35 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 27, 2020, 07:39:25 am

The twist: It wasn't a murder at all, just some poor sap who ended up killing themselves in a terrifically gruesome manner by accident.

Interesting twist, but I'm not sure how the players would ever be able to determine that.

Speak With Dead.
Player: Who killed you?
Corpse: Myself.

The question is more, how do you keep them from immediately using the spell, while eventually letting them do so?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 27, 2020, 09:42:15 am

The mansion has a magical hospitality rule, which acts to prevent spellcasting and violent acts (IE, increasing the spell slot needed to cast any spell by X, reducing damage done by attacks by Xd4.). As the various guests turn on each other, they also begin to weaken the hospitality enchantment, until it becomes so weak that spells like that can be cast. This is pretty much a failure condition because everyone will be rioting at that point, but it does mean that the mystery can be solved too late. If you want a better outcome, better get to traditional detectiving!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on April 27, 2020, 10:02:42 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 27, 2020, 09:30:12 am

The question is more, how do you keep them from immediately using the spell, while eventually letting them do so?

Speak with Dead requires that the corpse has an intact jaw. Simply make the death gruesome enough that they need to go on a scavenger hunt for bone fragments if they want to solve it that way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Trekkin on April 27, 2020, 10:14:14 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 27, 2020, 09:30:12 am

The question is more, how do you keep them from immediately using the spell, while eventually letting them do so?

Well, since Speak with Dead can only get information the target knew in life, it might help if the manner of death made it appear unlikely that the subject died knowing their killer. Suppose they maybe-slipped maybe-were-pushed and fell off a roof, for example, or unknowingly ingested poison. If the honest answer to "who killed you" is visibly going to be "I don't know", the players will probably hold off until they have enough context to ask something more useful.

EDIT: Actually, if you can contrive it so the evidence points to a massive overdose of poison, this has some black comedy potential. Just have the corpse tell them "I found a bottle o' pirate potion in one of the secret liquor cabinets under the floorboards, yarr, and in that bottle I found me way out o' me former life o' indolence an' irresponsibility as the third son o' a minor baron. Aye, I swigged it down and waited to transform an' begin me new life o' nautical adventures!"
"There were some words on the bottle, yarr, but the only lettarrs a pirate needs to know be the C 'an the R, and 'tweren't none of them. No mistaking the skull and crossbones, though. What the yarr would a pirate need to be litarrate for anyway, says I."

This as the mansion quietly burns down behind them in the midst of the N-way civil war his death set off.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 27, 2020, 01:02:26 pm

I mean Greek Xenia works pretty well with adventurers. Adventurers are obligated to give information about the outside world / world affairs to their host, and hosts are not supposed to ask questions if their guests haven't finished their food / do not want to answer. Adventurers get free board, lodging, cleaning and food, hosts get to hear about the player's questing and misadventures. If they fuck up some minor transgressions like asking about their host's dead wife over brunch then just have the host react as such. I think only serious guest right violations like killing the host, stealing from them or destroying their home should carry over to the next lodging

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 27, 2020, 04:02:43 pm

Quote from: Wikipedia quoting Steeve Reece, 1993

*    The respect from hosts to guests. Hosts must be hospitable to guests and provide them with a bath, food, drink, gifts, and safe escort to their next destination. It is considered rude to ask guests questions, or even to ask who they are, before they have finished the meal provided to them.
*    The respect from guests to hosts. Guests must be courteous to their hosts and not be a threat or burden. Guests are expected to provide stories and news from the outside world. Most importantly, guests are expected to reciprocate if their hosts ever call upon them in their homes.[3]

Naturally I wondered whether this applied to those of lower status - but as I learned recently, the Greeks had the same stories as the Norse did about the Gods taking the form of vagrants or even beggars!

Which, wow, lives on.  My father almost went out of his way to engage with people... "outside our life".  My brother and I met a lot of people who most families would have avoided.  My dad loves to talk, and these people were happy to talk.  And the stories they told were well worth the price he paid.

I don't have that confidence, and there are dangerous situations which my father was... wise to, from experience.  But I see it as a virtue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 28, 2020, 03:22:00 am

Reminds me of one of my favorite ice-breaker game questions I use for new characters in an adventure. I ask them about their toughest battle.

Since the characters are new, they have to improvise about their background. It's a great way to get the players into the mind of their characters.

My own offering from an NPC to kick off the exchange is usually some form of battle in the frozen north, where my character was hunting an ice troll. The troll knocked him out, dragging him to its ice cave lair. It hung him from his feet from the ceiling of the cave, but my character, through either magic or strength, freed himself and slew the troll. Unfortunately he was caught in a blizzard on his return. He ended up having to kill his mount and take shelter inside its carcass from the cold.

The story never fails to get a laugh from the table, along with a few contributions to embellish the details, and serves as a great starting point for inspiration for the group's stories.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 28, 2020, 06:43:15 am

Y'know, I used to think that Enchantment was kind of a silly Wizard specialization, since I didn't think their school perks really matched up against some of the others like Evocation or Transmutation... But rereading and reconsidering things, I believe I was grossly mistaken.

Hypnotic gaze is honestly a bit ridiculous. Yes, you need to be standing next to the creature in order for it to work, but it has a single save and if that fails the wizard can simply continue the effect as long as they like, and is usable once per long rest per creature. You can still use it (or try to) on everyone you meet over the course of a day if you so wish, you just can't use it twice on the same schlub without taking a snooze between attempts. That's big.

So, nevermind the point that you can just hypnotize someone and let a buddy tie them up for a more permanent incapacitation (or, heck, even just let the barbarian freely put them in a headlock, since it's not "causing damage"), but since the subject is "charmed" you gain advantage on any social interactions with them while you've got them hypnotized. That's just a crazy interrogation/suggestion tool.

Instinctive Charm at 6th level lets you use your reaction to redirect an attack against you if the attacker fails a Wisdom save against your spell save DC. If the attacker does make the save and the attack does go through, then you can't use that ability on that attacker again until after a long rest... You can still use it on any other attacker, and if you do redirect the attack due to them failing the save, then you can just keep using it on them until they finally manage to slip one past your magical defenses! This is also pretty crazy when you think about it, since not only are you saving your squishy self from evil monster attacks, but you're also potentially turning those attacks around and hitting more enemies with them, basically for free (reactions are quite versatile though).


Then we've got that whammy at 10th level, Split Enchantment... "When you cast an enchantment spell of 1st level or higher that targets only one creature, you can have it target a second creature".

Ignoring the obvious munchkin bait that this line does not specify "target a second creature within range of the spell", realize for a moment that this means actually a fair bit more than "just" charm/dominate/hold/suggestion, which is already pretty dang useful...

No, the wording of the ability also means that it applies to Power Words. Or Feeblemind, if that's more your jam.


Alter Memories also opens itself up to some truly evil nefarious shit, but meh. We're already more than done by that point.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 28, 2020, 08:01:26 am

Quote from: Kagus on April 28, 2020, 06:43:15 am

Y'know, I used to think that Enchantment was kind of a silly Wizard specialization, since I didn't think their school perks really matched up against some of the others like Evocation or Transmutation... But rereading and reconsidering things, I believe I was grossly mistaken.

Yeah, enchantment and to a lesser degree conjuration are full of spells that just take enemies out of a fight. That was great in AD&D, and is way better now that the hitpoints of everything have been multiplied to the point that doing damage isn't very useful. Plus they work outside of combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 28, 2020, 12:03:06 pm

An important question about enchantment which I don't remember seeing in the rules is how creatures react to being enchanted.  Even if they fail the spellcraft check to identify the spell (however *that* works in 5th edition) are they able to notice their altered behavior after the spell ends?  I don't remember the spells stating that they don't notice.  What would be a reasonable response to that?

It's actually a tricky question because the default settings seem to have a cultural acceptance of enchantment magic.  It's a valid field of study, perhaps a little weird but far less stigmatized than say, necromancy.  And yet in 3.5* it's far worse than most necromancy!  Animating a corpse is gross but harms no one - enchanters violate the minds of living people!

And then there's bards.  Fascinating people with a performance is all well and good, but they don't stop there do they?

The Elder Scrolls is particularly bad about this, but I think it's a weird oversight in official DND material too.

* In 5th edition animated dead remember languages they knew in life, implying that their mind and/or soul are pulled back into their corpse.  3.5 Animate Dead has the evil descriptor, but I haven't seen any evidence that the spirit of a zombie or skeleton is recalled from their afterlife.  It's just taboo to mess with corpses- but apparently not living minds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 28, 2020, 12:48:43 pm

Dude, you can't be both edgily faux-rationalist about how "it's only a dead body lol" and then turn around and be moralist about the autonomy of people's minds, pick one camp and sit in it ;)

Not respecting the integrity of people's corpses is a thing that's usually very drowned upon. In Sweden we call it breaking the grave-peace. Pretending animating bodies is a moral non-issue is like saying enchanting is "just being very good at changing people's minds".

And that's before we get into the whole issue of negative energy and why using it is bad.

Agreed about TES though. Before Oblivion changed it so they could have a dumb, no-depth necromancer plot, Necromancy was a completely legal (if still loathed by people for obvious reason) practice in the Empire and the Mage' s Guild. Morrowind was singled out as the only place that forbade it or where it was taboo (and they still made exceptions for glorious voluntary undeadifying of oneself). But since Oblivion had a necromancer as the evil guy they had to make every single necromancer an evil guy too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 28, 2020, 01:55:49 pm

I just had a thought. Would a bathtub full of water count as one object including the water, two objects, or one object excluding the water which doesn't count?
Depending on the answer, 14th level Illusionists can take a bath anywhere without spending spell slots except the first permanent casts of Major Image. They can even use Disguise Self so no one can see them being naked, at least without Truesight.
Clearly the ability to take a bath anywhere is the very peak of the wizard class.
Sure, you can just use Thaumatergy to clean, but then you don't have a bath.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 28, 2020, 02:54:55 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 28, 2020, 12:03:06 pm

An important question about enchantment which I don't remember seeing in the rules is how creatures react to being enchanted.  Even if they fail the spellcraft check to identify the spell (however *that* works in 5th edition) are they able to notice their altered behavior after the spell ends?  I don't remember the spells stating that they don't notice.  What would be a reasonable response to that?

The level 14 ability of specialist Enchanters (the ability to prevent one creature from noticing it's been charmed when casting a spell that charms one or more creatures) would somewhat imply that it's common to notice and react to charming magics, but in some light skimming I've only found two spells that directly state that the victim is aware after the fact: Friends and Charm Person. Friends explicitly states that the target becomes hostile to you and will act according to their demeanor in regards to such, but Charm Person simply states that the individual is aware that you've used enchantment magic on it.

Since these spells specifically state that the person is aware afterwards, we can assume that the enchantment spells that do not state this will not alert the target in the same way.

EDIT:

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 28, 2020, 01:55:49 pm

I just had a thought. Would a bathtub full of water count as one object including the water, two objects, or one object excluding the water which doesn't count?
Depending on the answer, 14th level Illusionists can take a bath anywhere without spending spell slots except the first permanent casts of Major Image.

I was going to break into a whinge about permanent castings not being a thing and how you'd therefore have to deal with DM fiat and homebrew rules and whatnot, but then I reread the spell description and realized you can make a permanent non-concentration version of the spell by just casting it at 6th level instead of 4th. Which is honestly more than a little bit ridiculous, once you think about it for a moment.

Unfortunately, the 14th level ability implies that you can only make the illusion component "real" for a maximum of 1 minute per casting, so that bath is going to get rather ineffective after a very short while.

However, it does still let you create a major image that can include a real component for 1 minute, and during that minute you can reposition that image anywhere within the 120' range with an action.

So you may not be able to keep yourself luxuriously hygienic for weeks, but you can at least fly a little over 7,000 feet in one casting if you just ride in the bathtub.

EDIT2: I suppose whether or not you can "re-real" part of the same spell again with another bonus action is a bit up to interpretation, but I wouldn't count on any but the most fun-loving DMs to let you get away with that reading.


EDIT3: What the fuck is my math... Action is 6 seconds, 60 seconds to a minute = 10 actions in one minute, 120 feet movement per action = 1080 feet travelled by flying bathtub (first action is spent creating the bathtub at our location, presumably)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 28, 2020, 04:36:59 pm

Quote

Illusory Reality
By 14th level, you have learned the secret of weaving shadow magic into your illusions to give them a semi-reality. When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical object that is part of the illusion and make that object real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing. The object remains real for 1 minute. For example, you can create an illusion of a bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough for your allies to cross.
The object can't deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone.

Which part of this suggests you can't re-real a spell? It says nothing about being used once a spell, and you can use it while a spell is ongoing. I suppose you might have to wait until it's un-real to re-real it though, in which case you might as well just use thaumatergy.

Also, how many spells with expensive material components are there that you can cast in a minute?
If so, the illusionist can make it on site.
I think revivify is on such spell.

EDIT: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/17/illusory-reality-2/
Apparently I'm wrong, and it is supposed to be only once. That's no fun. You can't carry multiple illusory handkerchiefs you can turn into adamantium walls then, you have to use your action to move them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 29, 2020, 07:07:42 pm

Quote from: scriver on April 28, 2020, 12:48:43 pm

Dude, you can't be both edgily faux-rationalist about how "it's only a dead body lol" and then turn around and be moralist about the autonomy of people's minds, pick one camp and sit in it ;)

You absolutely can. I don't know about your religious beliefs but actually it is relatively common to consider that the mind or soul is an ephemeral thing and is the true essence of a person, while the body is only a temporary vessel and not intrinsically valuable. Notably, this is the theological basis for Quakers and many related groups considering people to be inherently equal despite corporeal differences like race and sex.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 29, 2020, 09:27:38 pm

What do they think about Enchantment tho

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 29, 2020, 09:33:45 pm

Yeah... I *was* being intentionally edgy, but I also found such a disconnect in your (Scriver) response that I figured it wasn't worth arguing!

I do understand respecting a body, but only as a symbol of the person who's no longer around.  A particularly important possession (unintentional sorta-pun?) but very distinct from the actual person.
I was tempted to make this conversation a little too real, so let's pretend I'm only talking about DND - where the mind + soul fly off to an afterlife.  And as best as I can tell, enjoy (or suffer) and eventually dissolve into that afterlife regardless of what is done to their body.

In 3.5e.  As I pointed out, 5e "animation" might pull part of the mind back.  Maybe it's the same "residual memories" Speak With Dead always used without touching the deceased mind/soul, but my GM took it as binding the mind to the corpse.  Status of soul: uncertain, potentially a power source.  The mind/soul distinction is tricky.

Fakedit

Quote from: scriver on April 29, 2020, 09:27:38 pm

What do they think about Enchantment tho

Quakers aren't strictly sober but they appear to value temperance.  Along with other vaguely remembered bits about their practices, I think they take a dim view on *fucking with people's minds*.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 30, 2020, 01:05:02 am

I'll have to agree that enchantment can be ickier than necromancy (of the kind where you turn someone's corpse into an undead creature), depending on the exact unstated mechanics of necromancy. I can imagine, and have occasionally seen, settings where necromancy is an honorable thing.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that animating a corpse would preclude that person from being resurrected until the undead is destroyed. So using someone's corpse as a handy vessel for your pet lower energy spirit would also mean you've given up on bringing that person back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 30, 2020, 04:25:12 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 29, 2020, 09:33:45 pm

Yeah... I *was* being intentionally edgy, but I also found such a disconnect in your (Scriver) response that I figured it wasn't worth arguing!

What's disconnectant about it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 30, 2020, 04:34:18 am

I've always found it amusing that Charm Person is the basis for pretty much all the D&D love potions. Just add a dash of Rohypnol for that perfect date!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 30, 2020, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 30, 2020, 04:34:18 am

I've always found it amusing that Charm Person is the basis for pretty much all the D&D love potions. Just add a dash of Rohypnol for that perfect date!

I... don't see how it's amusing.
That is exactly what the date rape drug of the medieval era should have as a basis, the date rape spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on April 30, 2020, 05:12:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 30, 2020, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 30, 2020, 04:34:18 am

I've always found it amusing that Charm Person is the basis for pretty much all the D&D love potions. Just add a dash of Rohypnol for that perfect date!

I... don't see how it's amusing.
That is exactly what the date rape drug of the medieval era should have as a basis, the date rape spell.

Were they actually casting date rape spells on each other in the medieval period?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 30, 2020, 05:14:20 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 30, 2020, 05:12:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 30, 2020, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 30, 2020, 04:34:18 am

I've always found it amusing that Charm Person is the basis for pretty much all the D&D love potions. Just add a dash of Rohypnol for that perfect date!

I... don't see how it's amusing.
That is exactly what the date rape drug of the medieval era should have as a basis, the date rape spell.

Were they actually casting date rape spells on each other in the medieval period?

Succubi and incubi gotta come from somewhere

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on April 30, 2020, 05:22:31 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 30, 2020, 05:12:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 30, 2020, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 30, 2020, 04:34:18 am

I've always found it amusing that Charm Person is the basis for pretty much all the D&D love potions. Just add a dash of Rohypnol for that perfect date!

I... don't see how it's amusing.
That is exactly what the date rape drug of the medieval era should have as a basis, the date rape spell.

Were they actually casting date rape spells on each other in the medieval period?

No not actually AFAIK, but plenty of medieval tales have such spells and potions in them, which is what I was referring to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 30, 2020, 11:38:35 pm

Quote from: scriver on April 30, 2020, 04:25:12 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on April 29, 2020, 09:33:45 pm

Yeah... I *was* being intentionally edgy, but I also found such a disconnect in your (Scriver) response that I figured it wasn't worth arguing!

What's disconnectant about it?

Sorry for not replying sooner- I wasn't criticizing your post.  I observed a cultural disconnect where you find dead bodies sacrosanct, and I don't.  I dropped the issue since I had no hope or desire to change your mind.

I may have read too much into your response, though.  We both agree that dead bodies should be treated with respect.
Just as much as the other items left behind by the dearly departed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 01, 2020, 08:35:20 am

It makes for interesting thought experiment about the creepiness of the different schools of magic.

There already are many people who in their last will and testament agree that their body can be used for spare parts. Would organ donation be any different from instead allowing your entire body to be raised and used for work?

Say a chip is invented which, when installed into a brain, subtly influences one's behaviour so as to make them a better person. Would it be ethical to install the chip in unwilling patients, for example as part of a program to release prisoners from prison?

True Polymorph can change any object into any other, including an inanimate object into a sapient creature and vice versa. If I polymorph you into an inanimate object, use part of that object for a project, then polymorph the remainder back to you exactly as you were, have I done wrong?

The spell Awakening means that all beasts are potentially sapient. What does this mean for the meat industry?

What would be the strongest divination spell you'd allow a government agency to use on you? Would it be ethical to use something like Detect Evil as evidence in court? Would this be any different from the idea of "evil genes"?

I'm not actually expecting answers to any of these.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 01, 2020, 09:02:20 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on May 01, 2020, 08:35:20 am

It makes for interesting thought experiment about the creepiness of the different schools of magic.

There already are many people who in their last will and testament agree that their body can be used for spare parts. Would organ donation be any different from instead allowing your entire body to be raised and used for work?

It depends firstly on whether or not they would consider said bodies to be desecrated (like with generic dnd) or whether serving in unlife is considered an honour (like in Morrowind with tomb guardians).

Secondly it would depend on what the work is. The Morrowindian tomb guardians are considered an honour because you're becoming a servant of your ancestors, guarding and protecting the resting place. I doubt Mr Plebbington raised to muck the stables would be considered as positive development.

And thirdly, the power perspective. When we give up our organs it is a selfless action, never benefiting ourselves. In this example, that would be a person by the letter of what you said, somebody willingly giving up their body without expectation of return, perhaps because they want to aid their settlement with whatever, that's all well and good. But if it's a pauper selling their future vacated body to feed their family it because horrible very fast just as it does with organ trade in real life.

Although an interesting variant (if still very morally ambigious) would be a person "renting" the work of their corpse and their descendants then gaining it's wage until the body disintegrates.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 01, 2020, 09:30:21 am

That actually reminds me of Starfinder. In the setting, undead aren't always considered evil (as it can be achieved with technology as much as negative energy) and sapient ones can be citizens like any other. On the planet of the Necrovites, Eox, there's a standard deal of eternal unlife in exchange for a few centuries of indentured servitude. Surprisingly many find that to be a good deal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 01, 2020, 09:36:23 am

Quote from: IcyTea31

the Necrovites

So, Paizo, what are you gonna call your faction of necromancers?

Hmmm... How about the Death-Lifes? No, too on the nose... gotta spice it up in some way...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on May 01, 2020, 10:03:16 am

Quote from: scriver on May 01, 2020, 09:36:23 am

Quote from: IcyTea31

the Necrovites

So, Paizo, what are you gonna call your faction of necromancers?

Hmmm... How about the Death-Lifes? No, too on the nose... gotta spice it up in some way...

I assume the process was more like "they're necromancers so we should use "necro" to make them easy to remember. To make them a faction or creed, -ite is an appropriate suffix. "Necroite" is weird to pronounce and looks like it could have multiple different readings. What do you guys reckon is the spookiest consonant?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 01, 2020, 10:30:06 am

Quote from: Cruxador on May 01, 2020, 10:03:16 am

Quote from: scriver on May 01, 2020, 09:36:23 am

Quote from: IcyTea31

the Necrovites

So, Paizo, what are you gonna call your faction of necromancers?

Hmmm... How about the Death-Lifes? No, too on the nose... gotta spice it up in some way...

I assume the process was more like "they're necromancers so we should use "necro" to make them easy to remember. To make them a faction or creed, -ite is an appropriate suffix. "Necroite" is weird to pronounce and looks like it could have multiple different readings. What do you guys reckon is the spookiest consonant?"

Z. It's like an even more intimidating hissing sound.
The z sound also makes me think of bees and chainsaws.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 01, 2020, 11:12:46 am

Now introducing: The Necrobees

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 01, 2020, 12:58:50 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 30, 2020, 05:12:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 30, 2020, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 30, 2020, 04:34:18 am

I've always found it amusing that Charm Person is the basis for pretty much all the D&D love potions. Just add a dash of Rohypnol for that perfect date!

I... don't see how it's amusing.
That is exactly what the date rape drug of the medieval era should have as a basis, the date rape spell.

Were they actually casting date rape spells on each other in the medieval period?

Considering magic doesn't actually work, possibly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 01, 2020, 02:08:07 pm

Quote from: scriver on May 01, 2020, 11:12:46 am

Now introducing: The Necrobees

Actually, I've already modded those into DF.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 02, 2020, 05:38:13 am

Quote from: Iduno on May 01, 2020, 12:58:50 pm

Quote from: Cruxador on April 30, 2020, 05:12:21 pm

Quote from: pikachu17 on April 30, 2020, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Jimmy on April 30, 2020, 04:34:18 am

I've always found it amusing that Charm Person is the basis for pretty much all the D&D love potions. Just add a dash of Rohypnol for that perfect date!

I... don't see how it's amusing.
That is exactly what the date rape drug of the medieval era should have as a basis, the date rape spell.

Were they actually casting date rape spells on each other in the medieval period?

Considering magic doesn't actually work, possibly.

I seem to recall reading about a historical figure (pre-medieval period) who, while hosting an attractive female dignitary, over-salted his guest's food so that she became intensely thirsty during the night to the point where he could extort sex from her in exchange for water.

It was a popsci publication though, so {citation needed}, but people were definitely dicks enough to try any sort of underhanded tactics they felt were plausible for getting their dickishness moistened.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 02, 2020, 08:12:10 am

Quote from: Kagus on May 02, 2020, 05:38:13 am

I seem to recall reading about a historical figure (pre-medieval period) who, while hosting an attractive female dignitary, over-salted his guest's food so that she became intensely thirsty during the night to the point where he could extort sex from her in exchange for water.

It was a popsci publication though, so {citation needed}, but people were definitely dicks enough to try any sort of underhanded tactics they felt were plausible for getting their dickishness moistened.

Oh cool, he invented cinema food

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on May 06, 2020, 08:03:43 pm

My sauceror has determined that my GM's variety of cubic dungeon jelly is edible and quite delicious after the poison is removed. As a sauceror, those two roadblocks disappear after two seconds of spellcasting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 08, 2020, 10:39:24 am

So, conversion Warlocks... Characters that use their high CHA to persuade others into serving their patron, shaping cults and earning boons for their service in providing more followers.

What's your preferred patron? Archfey has the Fey Presence thing (which honestly seems a little tricky to maneuver properly), and the spell list has stuff like Calm Emotions and eventually Dominate Beast/Person. There's also the 14th level ability, but that's more for getting one particular individual over to your side than convincing or addressing a larger group.

Fiend actually has some utility with Dark One's Own Luck letting you add 1d10 to an ability check or saving throw, for example when attempting to persuade a group of prospective followers of the wisdom in embracing your patron's guidance. I also think it'd be funny to use Fiendish Resilience along with burning/poisoning yourself in an act to prove the protection your lord provides you. Command on the spell list is nice too, plus they actually get Hallow should you finally pull a proper cult together and want to have some fun with that.

GOO has some nifty stuff in the spell list, plus telepathy can potentially let you have a little "voice of god" moment with people. I imagine speaking from inside someone's head should do a number on convincing them of supernatural power. Thralls at 14th are fun too for those particularly difficult nuts to crack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cruxador on May 09, 2020, 10:00:34 am

Quote from: Kagus on May 08, 2020, 10:39:24 am

So, conversion Warlocks... Characters that use their high CHA to persuade others into serving their patron, shaping cults and earning boons for their service in providing more followers.

What's your preferred patron?

This sounds a lot like those semi-Christian YHWH cults that pop up in the Americas from time to time. On that basis I would be inclined to lean towards GOO. Although that kind of thing could also be represented by celestial, fire and radiance aren't really the most relevant parts of the YHWH setup to your concept.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 09, 2020, 11:24:47 am

I mean, it counts for several different kinds of culty business, but those certainly work as inspiration! And yeah, GOO telepathy is sweet thematically, and lets you both proselytize "privately" while in public and also get around that nasty "knowing the same language" business to give you a more diverse base of followers... Additionally, provided that you have a very understanding DM; the new devotees could potentially get the same ability since it's level 1 and all, allowing you to develop an excellent shadow cult that can telecommunicate and plot with each other in secret.

---

In other news, here's a stupid gimmick character concept: Battlemaster with Crossbow Expert and a net. Stand next to somebody, slap them with the net (CE removes melee range disadvantage for ranged weapons), apply Menacing Attack maneuver to the net to deal a little damage and also frighten (on a failed Wis save) the target until the end of your next turn, CE then lets you pew them once with a bonus action for damage.

Restrained drops the target's speed to 0 and provides advantage on attacks against it. Menacing Attack causes Frightened for disadvantage on ability checks while the frightener is within sight. Net requires a strength check in order to break out of. Victim can't run away from frightener because speed is 0. Take Archery fighting style for extra +2 on net and crossbow attacks.

Pew with im-pew-nity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 09, 2020, 11:27:27 am

...I like it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 09, 2020, 01:48:35 pm

There might be something to that idea as a Paladin of Conquest as well. A net would let them lock people down earlier than normal and can be allowed to fall by the wayside once they hit level 7 and fear becomes it's own net.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 10, 2020, 05:56:51 am

Flipping through the book again, and... RAW, you can use the Feinting Attack battle maneuver to gain advantage on a spell attack. Since you can only use the maneuver on someone within melee range, that means you're probably going to want to use a touch spell that uses an attack roll.

I dunno about you, but advantage on Inflict Wounds seems like it'd be fun.

---

And now, a philosophical question: If you cast Dream on a sleeping beholder, would that create a clone of whoever acted as the messenger in the dream?

Similarly, if you use the Dream option to make the messenger appear "monstrous and terrifying", would that then create a monstrous and terrifying version of the messenger in question? Potentially shaped by the behaviors and the ten words the monstrous messenger is allowed to speak during the dream?


...don't mind me, I'm just trying to weaponize forces beyond my control or understanding.

I'm also slightly curious how an Illusionist's level 14 Illusory Reality is supposed to work with Dream. Or Phantasmal Killer. Or any number of other Illusion spells that aren't Minor, Silent, or Major Image.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 10, 2020, 07:24:46 am

So, just finished session zero of an Al-Qadim game in 5e (using mostly stuff from Kobold Press and Jeremy Forbin's subclasses, for those interested). We're starting at level 1, and I'm aiming to actually do that thing at level 2 and 3 where characters get 'inducted' into their subclass.

First will be our Halfling Druid Barber. Basically, I need more puns for an order of Barber-druids. Riding the straight-razor edge between city life and the wild deserts.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 10, 2020, 07:54:11 am

Quote from: delphonso on May 10, 2020, 07:24:46 am

First will be our Halfling Druid Barber. Basically, I need more puns for an order of Barber-druids. Riding the straight-razor edge between city life and the wild deserts.

Any thoughts?

Ah, a Bushmaster! Lashing freely into any hairy situation, unshaken by even the closest of shaves! Charging headlong into any tangle, and emerging victorious through razor wit or shear luck! Shedding all unnecessary trappings and cutting straight to the chase; the braiding together of the civilized and uncivilized worlds into a unique weave of culture and primalism... Doing away with the locks and trappings of over-sophisticated pomposity, while narrowly avoiding the rat's nest of outright savagery!

...yeah, that's all I've got for now.


In other news, UA is still as broken as one would expect. Wizard 1/Circle of Twilight Druid 16 can cast Magic Missile for (1d4+1+8d10)x11 damage.

Also the new Barbarian UA is "Ha ha fuck the rest of my party also I'm a magic battery".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 10, 2020, 09:29:21 am

UA being broken is a feature, not a bug. And Twilight Circle becoming official is highly unlikely for a number of reasons. That new barbarian is pretty great though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 10, 2020, 03:21:22 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 10, 2020, 09:29:21 am

UA being broken is a feature, not a bug. And Twilight Circle becoming official is highly unlikely for a number of reasons. That new barbarian is pretty great though.

Speaking of UA being broken, I just looked up Lore Master again... Good lord, that thing is some staggeringly pungent cheese (also I realized it has a funny interaction with Telekinesis, in that you can just slowly lift someone up into the air 30' at a time, up to "the reach of the spell"... Which, since TK has an actual range of 60' and not "Self", means the Lore Master can extend it to one mile).

I've got no idea what Twilight's background is for special circumstances regarding it not going official (other than usual brokenness, which can always be tweaked). Wild Spirit barb just... Just... Uggh.

Say goodbye to using your rage anywhere near your party, except as a means of recharging someone's spell slots. Which I'm sure is eminently exploitable with feedback loops provided someone has some decent healing capabilities, but at least force damage is difficult to gain resistance to...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 10, 2020, 05:27:48 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 08, 2020, 10:39:24 am

So, conversion Warlocks... Characters that use their high CHA to persuade others into serving their patron, shaping cults and earning boons for their service in providing more followers.

What's your preferred patron? Archfey has the Fey Presence thing (which honestly seems a little tricky to maneuver properly), and the spell list has stuff like Calm Emotions and eventually Dominate Beast/Person. There's also the 14th level ability, but that's more for getting one particular individual over to your side than convincing or addressing a larger group.

Fiend actually has some utility with Dark One's Own Luck letting you add 1d10 to an ability check or saving throw, for example when attempting to persuade a group of prospective followers of the wisdom in embracing your patron's guidance. I also think it'd be funny to use Fiendish Resilience along with burning/poisoning yourself in an act to prove the protection your lord provides you. Command on the spell list is nice too, plus they actually get Hallow should you finally pull a proper cult together and want to have some fun with that.

GOO has some nifty stuff in the spell list, plus telepathy can potentially let you have a little "voice of god" moment with people. I imagine speaking from inside someone's head should do a number on convincing them of supernatural power. Thralls at 14th are fun too for those particularly difficult nuts to crack.

I am planning one character who is an actual clown serving an arch-fey who gave him his powers because it is a right laugh. I wanted to do an actual clown, not an edgy killer clown or court assassin jester, so he never uses combat abilities or any spells which do damage. Literally just maxing out on charm spells and illusions to make a clown that goes around recruiting enemies for his hijinks
It helps that I plan for him to use his pocket dimension to bring people to his literal circus world to spread the fun everywhere. Wholesome clowning

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 10, 2020, 05:46:59 pm

What classes can have a/several candiru that they order around?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 10, 2020, 06:13:28 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 10, 2020, 03:21:22 pm

I've got no idea what Twilight's background is for special circumstances regarding it not going official (other than usual brokenness, which can always be tweaked). Wild Spirit barb just... Just... Uggh.

Say goodbye to using your rage anywhere near your party, except as a means of recharging someone's spell slots. Which I'm sure is eminently exploitable with feedback loops provided someone has some decent healing capabilities, but at least force damage is difficult to gain resistance to...

The main reason you're unlikely to see Twilight becoming official is its 4 years old and the druid circles in the same document were released 3 years ago. Also if you've seen Wild Soul in action, using your rage near the party is fine 95% of the time and does a negligible amount of damage to them the rest of the time. The spell slot recharger is the perfect example of a UA ability that needs a few tweaks before it sees the light of day, which is exactly why they put out UA in the first place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 10, 2020, 06:44:25 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 10, 2020, 07:54:11 am

Ah, a Bushmaster! Lashing freely into any hairy situation, unshaken by even the closest of shaves! Charging headlong into any tangle, and emerging victorious through razor wit or shear luck! Shedding all unnecessary trappings and cutting straight to the chase; the braiding together of the civilized and uncivilized worlds into a unique weave of culture and primalism... Doing away with the locks and trappings of over-sophisticated pomposity, while narrowly avoiding the rat's nest of outright savagery!

...yeah, that's all I've got for now.

This is very much appreciated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 11, 2020, 02:08:33 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 10, 2020, 05:46:59 pm

What classes can have a/several candiru that they order around?

Well, Druid is an obvious pick, alternatively Bard using Magical Secrets to pick up Conjure Animals... Or you could dip into UA and theme a Swarmkeeper Ranger as being surrounded by the little fishies.

However, you may be disappointed to learn that... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candiru#Alleged_attacks_on_humans)

---

How to annoy everyone at the table by rolling a gazillion goddamn dice: Fighter 2, Vengeance Paladin 4, Sorcerer 14 (subclass doesn't really matter, but might as well be red draconic for a little extra damage).

Turn 1: Fighpalerer closes to within 10' of target, uses bonus action to Channel Divinity into Vow of Enmity. Casts Scorching Ray at 8th level (as per multiclass rules, a Sorc14/Pal4 will have an 8th level slot) with Empowered Spell metamagic. Action Surge. Casts Scorching Ray at 7th level with Empowered Spell metamagic.

So that's 16 attack rolls with advantage, or 32 d20 rolls. 2d6 gets rolled 16 times, plus (up to) 10 rerolls off of the two Empowered Spell metas. If you're a Tiefling using Xanathar's guide, you can also pick up the feat that lets you reroll any 1 on a fire damage roll once.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 11, 2020, 03:21:13 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 11, 2020, 02:08:33 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 10, 2020, 05:46:59 pm

What classes can have a/several candiru that they order around?

Well, Druid is an obvious pick, alternatively Bard using Magical Secrets to pick up Conjure Animals... Or you could dip into UA and theme a Swarmkeeper Ranger as being surrounded by the little fishies.

However, you may be disappointed to learn that... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candiru#Alleged_attacks_on_humans)

---

How to annoy everyone at the table by rolling a gazillion goddamn dice: Fighter 2, Vengeance Paladin 4, Sorcerer 14 (subclass doesn't really matter, but might as well be red draconic for a little extra damage).

Turn 1: Fighpalerer closes to within 10' of target, uses bonus action to Channel Divinity into Vow of Enmity. Casts Scorching Ray at 8th level (as per multiclass rules, a Sorc14/Pal4 will have an 8th level slot) with Empowered Spell metamagic. Action Surge. Casts Scorching Ray at 7th level with Empowered Spell metamagic.

So that's 16 attack rolls with advantage, or 32 d20 rolls. 2d6 gets rolled 16 times, plus (up to) 10 rerolls off of the two Empowered Spell metas. If you're a Tiefling using Xanathar's guide, you can also pick up the feat that lets you reroll any 1 on a fire damage roll once.

If you want to talk about rolling too many dice, just remember that necromancer is a pretty good choice, because "bounded accuracy" means that everyone has about equal odds of hitting, including the 100 corpses you've got following you around.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 11, 2020, 03:24:52 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 11, 2020, 02:08:33 pm

However, you may be disappointed to learn that... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candiru#Alleged_attacks_on_humans)

Lies from Big Touro

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 11, 2020, 03:29:07 pm

Quippers are more of a piranha analogue, but I could see them being Candiru in a pinch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 12, 2020, 01:02:11 pm

Meh. Guess it's my turn to start becoming disillusioned with Sage Advice rulings. What with the Twinned Dragon's Breath (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/12/22/is-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade/) tomfoolery (which apparently even got errata'd (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf)), and another not-entirely-thought-through comment that would seem to imply that the extra action provided by Haste can be used to cast spells (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/23/action-surge-spell-2/) (which it quite definitely cannot). The wording on that last one is vague and therefore doesn't directly imply that effect, but it is confusing.

Also, interpreting the official errata document, Twinned Spell cannot be used on:

• Fire Bolt (can target obects)
• Haste (the extra action can be used for a variety of things that would cause multiple rolls)
• Hex/Hunter's Mark (can be redirected if a target dies during the spell, affecting more than one creature)
• Heat Metal (heated object can come in contact with multiple creatures)
• Dominate Beast/Person (dominated target can be made to do something that affects multiple targets)

And, due to the wording of the errata, there is of course some more interpretation to be had here... Making things very clear indeed, yes. Or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 12, 2020, 02:01:17 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 12, 2020, 01:02:11 pm

Meh. Guess it's my turn to start becoming disillusioned with Sage Advice rulings. What with the Twinned Dragon's Breath (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/12/22/is-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade/) tomfoolery (which apparently even got errata'd (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf)), and another not-entirely-thought-through comment that would seem to imply that the extra action provided by Haste can be used to cast spells (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/23/action-surge-spell-2/) (which it quite definitely cannot). The wording on that last one is vague and therefore doesn't directly imply that effect, but it is confusing.

Also, interpreting the official errata document, Twinned Spell cannot be used on:

• Fire Bolt (can target obects)
• Haste (the extra action can be used for a variety of things that would cause multiple rolls)
• Hex/Hunter's Mark (can be redirected if a target dies during the spell, affecting more than one creature)
• Heat Metal (heated object can come in contact with multiple creatures)
• Dominate Beast/Person (dominated target can be made to do something that affects multiple targets)

And, due to the wording of the errata, there is of course some more interpretation to be had here... Making things very clear indeed, yes. Or not.

Dominate and Haste could still be Twinned under that criteria since the issue is not with multiple rolls but a singular roll affecting multiple creatures. Fire bolt has always been unable to be twinned by a strict reading of the spell, and Hex, Hunter's Mark and Heat Metal were always not eligible (doubly so for Heat Metal since it doesn't target a creature)

Also being Hasted to be able to Dodge, Disengage or do other stuff so you can spend your normal action to cast a spell is extremely helpful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 12, 2020, 10:17:13 pm

So a few months back I did a bunch of logistics calculations on maintaining a bunch of soldier hirelings, the supplies needed to feed them, shelter them, transport goods, feed the horses, provide water and so on in DnD 5e.

I am now wondering about the same basic math, but replacing some hirelings with elephants and going full elephant cavalry, and also the variant using horses and going for conventional cavalry.

Elephants eat a lot, it works out to about 600 pounds, or 3gp a day in feed or a long time spent foraging if you aren't using goodberries to feed them. They also need a lot of water, about one and a quarter 40 gallon barrels a day. Obviously this makes for a lot of food and water that needs transported if you can't rely on natural sources, and you can never really rely on natural sources.

A dnd elephant can pull 6600 pounds, which means one elephant drawn wagon can carry supplies for the animal for just over a week. This is much worse than the maths I had done in the past for horses, oxen and donkeys, but elephants in dnd are much weaker than real ones for various stupid reasons.

So elephant cavalry is impractical without a bunch of horse drawn carts carrying food for the elephants, plus people and gear on top of that. So they can be written off as a dead end for hireling mounts. If you need two draft horses and a wagon just to carry feed for one elephant for a week things are going to get impractical fast. :(


Horses are much more economical to feed, and can carry huge amounts of cargo in excess of what they need to eat and drink even with their pulling capacity being much lower than real life horses. If you can get past the hurdle of saddle and warhorse costs then a couple of draft horses, or oxen if you really want to pull a lot of supplies, can be the baggage train for a dozen cavalrymen. Warhorses cost twice what an elephant does by the way, which seems quite insane.


EDIT: If you can persuade them that a diet of chickens, goats and the odd bandit is a good deal* then worgs are also surprisingly economical mounts, and they're as smart as orcs to boot. Obviously there's no real world equivalent to base their dietary needs on, but grizzly bears seem like a good rough starting point, and it works out to about a goat a day depending on the size of the goat. Goats are only 1gp, which is half the price of a normal skilled hireling.

*It's a great deal compared to what the average goblin can give them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Yoink on May 12, 2020, 10:28:13 pm

I guess the only practical solution is... zombie elephants.   

Though we should probably bear in mind that most such creatures can graze, rather than needing to rely exclusively on feed - but then I don't know wtf elephants would even graze on, exactly, or what biomes would support them doing so.   

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 12, 2020, 10:40:29 pm

They spend about 14 hours a day grazing, stripping bark off trees, eating slender branches, saplings, fruit and so on.

If you're traveling giving them time to graze would mean taking a slow meandering path.

The problem is really how little they can pull, real elephants can pull about 9 tons, or roughly three times what dnd elephants can pull, that opens up a lot of luggage space. Real horses would still be waaaay more efficient though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on May 13, 2020, 03:05:19 am

Isn't hiring an unskilled laborer only something in the range of 2 sp per day? Assuming they have average scores for strength, for the cost of one elephant you can have fifteen laborers carrying 150 lbs each. Since one elephant doesn't have fifteen times the strength of the laborers, I'd assume laborers are more cost effective when transporting equipment, until you consider cost of feeding them. Then you'd need to calculate the total distance you intend to travel, divide that by the movement speed and extrapolate the cost of food for your minions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 13, 2020, 05:33:11 am

Well a draft horse costs 1 silver piece a day to feed (5cp per 10 pounds of feed and horses need 15-20 from what I've read,) moves ten feet faster than a human, and can pull a combined cart weight of 2700* pounds with the wagon taking up 400 pounds.

The human labourer costing 2 silver a day can pull a handcart and load with a combined weight of 750 pounds, but the closest thing we have to a handcart is probably a chariot which weighs 100 pounds and costs 250gp, or a 200 pound cart which is cheap at 15gp. Food costs for humans are either 5sp for rations per day, or if you bring flour, live chickens/goats and so on and cook proper meals on the trip it'll work out at just a few copper per day at the cost of baggage space.

Unless strapped for cash when setting up the venture draft horses with wagons are much better cargo carriers than commoners. The horses do cost 5sp a day to stable when stopped in a city or town where you can't just tie them to trees and care for them yourself though, which is obviously quite pricy, but the four commoners you'd need to replace them cost 8 sp in daily wages so the horse still wins. You may also need to bring one commoner per wagon to drive the horses unless you can rely on a more generally useful hireling to do it as part of their other duties.

*A real life draft horse can pull up to 8000 pounds. 5e's carrying capacity rules are pretty bad.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 13, 2020, 05:53:44 am

Don't horses and commoners move at the same speed of disyance/day, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 13, 2020, 06:44:02 am

Due to how simplified travel is in 5e, yes provided the horses are pulling carts. Ridden horses can move faster for one hour per day which is obviously little help for draft animals.

If you get in a situation where things are trying to eat your draft animals or labourers then draft horses are better at escaping and better at fighting than commoners.

1 commoner, a draft horse and a wagon can pull just slightly less than 5 commoners with handcarts, but the former is cheaper to set up and maintain, the horse can be ridden if need be provided you bring a saddle, bit and bridle. You can also add more horses to a wagon cheaper than adding more commoners.

If you skip the vehicles and just carry stuff in bags on animal/people's backs then humans have a theoretically higher carrying capacity, but in practice a d&d backpack can't hold very much, 1 cubic foot or 30 pounds at max, so much of the carrying capacity would go unused. Saddlebags have no listed capacity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 13, 2020, 07:44:41 am

I mean, there's sleds.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on May 13, 2020, 10:04:39 am

Hey peeps,

Thinking about DMing a one shot for my friends to get into playing DnD this summer, any suggestions for a budding DM???

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 13, 2020, 10:34:44 am

Quote from: Urist McScoopbeard on May 13, 2020, 10:04:39 am

any suggestions for a budding DM???

If you want to tell a particular story, write a book. If you want to explore a new story with the players, GM.
Have some pre-set NPCs that you expect to use, but also have some stat blocks for other types of people, so you can just throw them in when needed. This advice probably applies to locations as well, especially in town.
Make sure everyone is on the same page about what type of game it will be before you start.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: andrea on May 13, 2020, 12:07:38 pm

Whatever you think players will do in a situation, they will do something completely different in the worst way possible for your plans.

Yes, even if you prepared 30 contingency plans and alternative path. They will find a way to break it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 13, 2020, 12:17:09 pm

Quote from: scriver on May 13, 2020, 07:44:41 am

I mean, there's sleds.

Given their price and weight I think carts are the better choice, though none of them have any information on how much they can carry or how big they are of course. Hurray for simplicity. ::)

I tend to assume wagons are able to be big enough to carry just about anything you might want carried, while the heavier carriage is probably more comfortable but can't carry much cargo, not that comfort matters much in d&d, and the cart I assume is intended to be one of the two wheeled variety. Sleds are presumably meant to be dog sleds.

Obviously none of this is helpful for actually working out cargo limits, but I'm generally running on the assumption a wagon pulled by two draft horses/oxen is the most efficient way to transports the large amount of goods I had worked out in my old calculations

Some math in an excel sheet tells me that 2 oxen can pull feed and water for themselves and an elephant for about 6 days with some spare cargo capacity for gear and supplies for the elephant's rider/s, plus whatever the elephant can be laden with or pull, and the wagon, feed, water barrels, elephant and oxen only cost 352 gp before factoring in exotic saddles, weapons and so on. It's not a bad price for a CR4 war mount.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 13, 2020, 12:29:55 pm

No, I didn't mean like in the books, I meant like in general. Also I meant sleds for people. As in pulled by people. It's what people used to use.

Of course there a no reason it couldn't be a handcart either. I guess I just thought "what else is there besides carrying stuff on your back" and thought of sleds and then thought hey you don't need horses to pull sleds unlike a cart and then I linda just thoughtlept over the notion that at that point you might as well use a small person-sized cart rather than a horse cart since you've obviously got wheels anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 13, 2020, 02:10:13 pm

Quote from: scriver on May 13, 2020, 12:29:55 pm

No, I didn't mean like in the books, I meant like in general. Also I meant sleds for people. As in pulled by people. It's what people used to use.

Of course there a no reason it couldn't be a handcart either. I guess I just thought "what else is there besides carrying stuff on your back" and thought of sleds and then thought hey you don't need horses to pull sleds unlike a cart and then I linda just thoughtlept over the notion that at that point you might as well use a small person-sized cart rather than a horse cart since you've obviously got wheels anyway.

Oh those things, weren't they usually similar in scale to a wheelbarrow?

You could have hirelings pull any vehicle, but you'd need several to make it worthwhile compared to one horse/ox/giant duck because of the weight of the vehicle and they wind up costing more than a horse does to maintain.

Interesting note is that warhorses are terrible value for money, 400 gold just to buy them compared to the 200 for an elephant, 50 for a camel or 75 for a riding horse. Given that Paladins get mounts for free and can replace them when they die you'd think they'd have made warhorses more reasonably priced for people who wanted to play something like a mounted fighter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on May 13, 2020, 03:09:56 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 12, 2020, 01:02:11 pm

Meh. Guess it's my turn to start becoming disillusioned with Sage Advice rulings. What with the Twinned Dragon's Breath (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/12/22/is-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade/) tomfoolery

This made me realize that you can twin-spell booming blade, and it stands to reason that you can also quicken it and also twin-spell that if need be. Combine this with the Mobile feat, and you have a pretty good pseudo-disengage action that puts the hurt on anyone trying to run after you.

Then I got thinking about how you might build a melee-focused sorcerer. Probably go dragon-blooded for the AC boost (basically mage armor, but you don't have to know it, cast it, or worry about it being dispelled) and extra HP. It sucks that there aren't any thunder damage dragons to boost booming blade's damage at 6th level, but I suppose it's not too bad to pick fire to use with green-flame blade.

Another option might be to start as a fighter to pick up armor proficiency and and a fighting style, then action surge at level 2, then possibly stick in it for another level for something like battle master maneuvers (though that might be too much investment in fighter levels). Alternatively or in addition to this, you can take Shadow Magic and be able to pull off the warlock's Devil's Sight trick.

As you go up in levels, there are a few spells you might have wanted that are only available to wizards for some reason (like steel wind strike or tenser's transformation or foresight), but you can still have fun with haste and shadow blade and various protective and teleportation spells. Overall, probably not the most optimized build, but it might be fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 13, 2020, 04:19:30 pm

Booming Blade with Swashbuckler doesn't even need Mobile.

I had a player who did a similar sorcerer build. Had one to two levels of fighter and the rest was sorcerer, but he had to quit because of work schedules changing. It was a fun character until that happened though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 13, 2020, 06:36:04 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 13, 2020, 04:19:30 pm

Booming Blade with Swashbuckler doesn't even need Mobile.

Yep, I've played this build before. You don't even need to multiclass, since you can take the Arcane Initiate feat for Booming Blade and another cantrip and 1st-level spell of your choice (Find Familiar is a good choice in my opinion). Did you know that even though it's a Cast a Spell action and not an Attack action, Booming Blade's attack can be a sneak attack?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on May 15, 2020, 02:10:14 am

Yeah, I'm aware of all of this. My idea is more to get multiple attacks with Booming Blade in a round, which admittedly is probably a worse build idea, but it likely doesn't benefit much from levels of rogue, since the idea is to spread the use of Booming Blade around rather than doing lots of damage to one target.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 19, 2020, 09:56:31 am

Found some third party material detailing baby monsters/magical creatures and now I want to run a magical academy sort of game where each PC has a randomly chosen baby monster to take care of during the course of their shenanigans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 19, 2020, 10:01:12 am

With Baby's Day Out style reckless endangerment of infants?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 19, 2020, 10:12:58 am

Only if I can play Hagrid with Agragogigaogogog

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 19, 2020, 11:26:43 am

Quote from: scriver on May 19, 2020, 10:12:58 am

Agragogigaogogog

Gesundheit

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 19, 2020, 01:59:43 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 12, 2020, 02:01:17 pm

Dominate and Haste could still be Twinned under that criteria since the issue is not with multiple rolls but a singular roll affecting multiple creatures. Fire bolt has always been unable to be twinned by a strict reading of the spell, and Hex, Hunter's Mark and Heat Metal were always not eligible (doubly so for Heat Metal since it doesn't target a creature)

Also being Hasted to be able to Dodge, Disengage or do other stuff so you can spend your normal action to cast a spell is extremely helpful.

Well, "singular roll affecting multiple creatures" is technically one of the things the errata doesn't like, but that's besides the point I was trying to make... Dominating an enemy can make you force that dominated creature to perform some sort of action on another creature that would require a saving throw (say, grappling), thus causing that spell to force multiple creatures to make saving throws. Same goes for Haste, the haste action can be used to force saving throws on multiple things, or even used in an attack by someone with the Sweeping Attack battle maneuver to "make a roll of any kind that affects more than one creature".

Now, this is up to interpretation of the intention of what qualifies as within the scope of the spell or not... A dominated creature isn't using any supernatural skills or abilities, it's just using what it could always use on targets of your discretion. Dragon's Breath, the spell this errata was aimed at resolving, grants affected creatures a special action that's described as part of the spell itself, and is therefore "spell-ier" than something a dominated creature would do... But then again, so does Haste.

One could argue that Haste is still allowed because everything included within the limits of the hasted action are things the creature would be able to do normally, whereas characters normally cannot use a breath weapon as in the case of Dragon's Breath. ...but, then, is it allowable to use it on Dragonborn, who can use breath weapons normally?


That's an awfully strict interpretation of Fire Bolt though, and one I doubt is shared by much of the community considering the general consensus seems to be that twinned Fire Bolt is legit... Or at least was. It's now definitely in the bin though; along with Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce, Otiluke's etc.

That interpretation is however supported (in as much as it isn't unambiguously rejected) by an earlier SA of Crawford's, the "Twin Spell test":

Quote

Twinned Spell test: can the spell affect only one creature at the spell's current level, and is its range not self? If yes, TS works.

...which, by similar interpretation, excludes things like Gaseous Form and Invisibility, since those also affect the equipment worn by the targeted creature. So I guess those are out, too.

---

Anyways, fun times with stupidity: Say you're an Illusionist at 14th level or higher, and you've got at least one concentration-free Major Image following you around... You then shape the image into, say, a rock or statue filling up the full 20' cube, and use your 14th level ability to make it "real" for 1 minute.

You then cast True Polymorph on the object, turning it into any creature smaller than the object (considering it's a 20' cube, that means pretty much anything).

So... First off, that probably shouldn't happen at all, even if it is a "real" object... It's still a "real" illusion. But if it did happen, would the creature be able to attack or cause damage? Is the polymorphed creature still the "object" created by the Illusory Reality, and therefore bound to Illusory Reality's limitations... Or is it now under the magical rules and laws of True Polymorph?

Quote from: scriver on May 19, 2020, 10:12:58 am

Only if I can play Hagrid with Agragogigaogogog

Q: Are the spiders in the Forbidden Forest uninterested in Harry Potter?

A: No. They are agog.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 02:55:29 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 19, 2020, 01:59:43 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 12, 2020, 02:01:17 pm

Dominate and Haste could still be Twinned under that criteria since the issue is not with multiple rolls but a singular roll affecting multiple creatures. Fire bolt has always been unable to be twinned by a strict reading of the spell, and Hex, Hunter's Mark and Heat Metal were always not eligible (doubly so for Heat Metal since it doesn't target a creature)

Also being Hasted to be able to Dodge, Disengage or do other stuff so you can spend your normal action to cast a spell is extremely helpful.

Well, "singular roll affecting multiple creatures" is technically one of the things the errata doesn't like, but that's besides the point I was trying to make... Dominating an enemy can make you force that dominated creature to perform some sort of action on another creature that would require a saving throw (say, grappling), thus causing that spell to force multiple creatures to make saving throws. Same goes for Haste, the haste action can be used to force saving throws on multiple things, or even used in an attack by someone with the Sweeping Attack battle maneuver to "make a roll of any kind that affects more than one creature".

Now, this is up to interpretation of the intention of what qualifies as within the scope of the spell or not... A dominated creature isn't using any supernatural skills or abilities, it's just using what it could always use on targets of your discretion. Dragon's Breath, the spell this errata was aimed at resolving, grants affected creatures a special action that's described as part of the spell itself, and is therefore "spell-ier" than something a dominated creature would do... But then again, so does Haste.

One could argue that Haste is still allowed because everything included within the limits of the hasted action are things the creature would be able to do normally, whereas characters normally cannot use a breath weapon as in the case of Dragon's Breath. ...but, then, is it allowable to use it on Dragonborn, who can use breath weapons normally?

If you want to screw yourself out of twin spells by claiming a spell causes a butterfly effect, that's on you. But when none of that stuff is listed in the spell, the spell doesn't cause it, so that's not an issue.

Quote from: Kagus on May 19, 2020, 01:59:43 pm

That's an awfully strict interpretation of Fire Bolt though, and one I doubt is shared by much of the community considering the general consensus seems to be that twinned Fire Bolt is legit... Or at least was. It's now definitely in the bin though; along with Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce, Otiluke's etc.

That's fine, but the only community consensus that matters when playing an RPG is what the players and DM agree upon at a single table. And some of those always didn't allow it. Have you actually found a 5e game yet? I highly recommend you actually get in a game of 5e when you can, so you can actually see what its like, because white paper D&D builds and such online are very different from actually playing the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 19, 2020, 04:01:59 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 02:55:29 pm

That's fine, but the only community consensus that matters when playing an RPG is what the players and DM agree upon at a single table. And some of those always didn't allow it.

That seems like the sort of thing that rules are for in most game systems.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 04:58:06 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 19, 2020, 04:01:59 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 02:55:29 pm

That's fine, but the only community consensus that matters when playing an RPG is what the players and DM agree upon at a single table. And some of those always didn't allow it.

That seems like the sort of thing that rules are for in most game systems.

Rules are nice, but most tables I've been at where the players and the DM disagreed on which rules/game system they were using ended poorly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on May 19, 2020, 09:42:12 pm

Quote from: Kagus on May 19, 2020, 01:59:43 pm

Q: Are the spiders in the Forbidden Forest uninterested in Harry Potter?

A: No. They are agog.

Are you sure they aren't your pal, Gog-Agog (https://killsixbilliondemons.fandom.com/wiki/Gog-Agog)?

Quote from: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 04:58:06 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 19, 2020, 04:01:59 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 02:55:29 pm

That's fine, but the only community consensus that matters when playing an RPG is what the players and DM agree upon at a single table. And some of those always didn't allow it.

That seems like the sort of thing that rules are for in most game systems.

Rules are nice, but most tables I've been at where the players and the DM disagreed on which rules/game system they were using ended poorly.

One thing I like about Stars Without Number is how the author frequently emphasizes that rules only need to be balanced for your table, rather than some hypothetical ideal. So while, hypothetically, a certain combo could cause a problem, if it's not a problem for your table then it isn't a problem. If it is, or if something not disbarred by the rules is a problem, then you should talk about it and do something to resolve that problem.

The whole idea of a single set of rules that everyone playing a game is meant to strictly abide by comes from organized play, where people wanted to be able to switch characters between tables and not have to deal with a lot of rules mismatch. For playing with a single table, it's fine if the way you use the rules isn't exactly the same as everyone else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 20, 2020, 03:39:40 am

You clearly have never had any arguments about Uno home ryles

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 20, 2020, 04:52:02 am

Quote from: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 04:58:06 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 19, 2020, 04:01:59 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 02:55:29 pm

That's fine, but the only community consensus that matters when playing an RPG is what the players and DM agree upon at a single table. And some of those always didn't allow it.

That seems like the sort of thing that rules are for in most game systems.

Rules are nice, but most tables I've been at where the players and the DM disagreed on which rules/game system they were using ended poorly.

That's kind of the point though; having a base set of rules allows people to go into a game knowing that everyone's more or less on the same page as far as how the game works. Anything above and beyond that, or different from it, can be handled by the DM if they so choose (without having to try and summarize the entire system every time).

However, when your base set of rules is unclear, then people coming to the table thinking they're on the same page as anyone else can get a rude awakening when something pops up down the line and everyone who thought they were using "standard rules" discovers that there were more disagreements than they were expecting.

Yes, final decision is always up to the DM. But it's a nice little luxury to know sort of what those decisions might look like before you're a character and several sessions in.

Some tables use crit fail/success rules for ability checks. That's fine and up to them, but it's specifically non-standard and can be clearly stated as such. "By the way, we use crits for ability checks", and people understand what that means because they're otherwise familiar with the core rules. It's something you'd expect to be notified of before getting into the game, because those familiar with the core rules won't expect ability crits to be part of it.


It's not a matter of me trying to "screw myself out of" particular spells, it's a matter of trying to understand what the Sage Advice "rule clarification" is intended to mean, since that's supposed to apply to the core rules people should be familiar with as a foundation (or rather, in this case, trying to show why I feel the errata could be seen as unreasonable or be interpreted in such a fashion). And when Crawford gives incomplete or confusing "clarifications" to the core rules, including ones that seem to drastically change what was presumed to be the initial intent, that's when I feel like I'm becoming disillusioned with SA.

If you're looking for a game of 5e DnD and you find a group and get to the table only to discover that they're rolling under d100s for skill checks and using a deck of playing cards as an extra resource then you'd probably feel a bit confused and uncertain about what else you don't know about this game that you thought you knew how to play. So yes, community consensus on what the core rules are supposed to mean is important, even though it's perfectly reasonable (and even common) to play a long and successful game with a table consensus of something completely different.


As for finding a meatspace game to play in; I'm not sure if anyone's noticed, but there's a pandemic on at the moment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 20, 2020, 05:59:22 am

Quote from: Kagus on May 20, 2020, 04:52:02 am

If you're looking for a game of 5e DnD and you find a group and get to the table only to discover that they're rolling under d100s for skill checks and using a deck of playing cards as an extra resource then you'd probably feel a bit confused and uncertain about what else you don't know about this game that you thought you knew how to play. So yes, community consensus on what the core rules are supposed to mean is important, even though it's perfectly reasonable (and even common) to play a long and successful game with a table consensus of something completely different.

We actually did a fun excercise on that as part of a social thing I was in last year. You're divided up into several groups and given a deck of cards and a few short rules for a game (basically what the game of Hearts on ye old Microsoft computers was). Except every group gets slightly different rules, like what colour is trumf, or how to count points, or who goes when and that sort of thing. And then they forbid you from speaking at all, and you get to play for a few rounds, then they start moving people between tables. And you have no fucking clue what the other people are playing or why the fuck you win or lose, and you still have to be silent so you have to try and communicate your confusion and/or the rules (or what you think are the rules) without a single word.

It was hilarous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on May 20, 2020, 07:47:22 am

There's the Great Chairman's Game too. This is the only rule I'm allowed to tell you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 20, 2020, 10:52:04 am

Quote from: Kagus on May 20, 2020, 04:52:02 am

It's not a matter of me trying to "screw myself out of" particular spells, it's a matter of trying to understand what the Sage Advice "rule clarification" is intended to mean, since that's supposed to apply to the core rules people should be familiar with as a foundation (or rather, in this case, trying to show why I feel the errata could be seen as unreasonable or be interpreted in such a fashion). And when Crawford gives incomplete or confusing "clarifications" to the core rules, including ones that seem to drastically change what was presumed to be the initial intent, that's when I feel like I'm becoming disillusioned with SA.

If you're looking for a game of 5e DnD and you find a group and get to the table only to discover that they're rolling under d100s for skill checks and using a deck of playing cards as an extra resource then you'd probably feel a bit confused and uncertain about what else you don't know about this game that you thought you knew how to play. So yes, community consensus on what the core rules are supposed to mean is important, even though it's perfectly reasonable (and even common) to play a long and successful game with a table consensus of something completely different.

The thing is, every RPG system I've ever played with different DMs has had a different feel or style, and that includes how they run the rules. Rule variation is going to happen no matter how tightly you build your system (unless your system is one page of rules, but that's a different kettle of fish), and you're going to find it no matter what table you go to. There's also a big difference between rolling d100s instead of d20s and talking to your DM about whether you can twin a spell.

Also, since you seem confused on this point. Sage Advice is guidance for DMs on how they rule things at their table, not errata, that's a separate document, (Stuff in Sage Advice isn't listed in Player's Handbooks), buts its still a handy thing to consider as a DM and I think its sensible for the most part. If you have a problem with Sage Advice, or even if you agree with it overall but don't want to correct a player or DM in the middle of the game, you can ignore it and run your own table, and Crawford will be the first person to tell you that. This Sage Advice is to give DMs advice on what "the spell can only target one creature" by giving the designers listing of criteria, and it makes sense as a list overall. Is it vague at times, sure, but that's because there's a lot of spells that do a lot of different things in the game. And the listing of criteria doesn't disqualify haste or dominate person.

Quote from: Kagus on May 20, 2020, 04:52:02 am

As for finding a meatspace game to play in; I'm not sure if anyone's noticed, but there's a pandemic on at the moment.

Most of the people I know are playing more D&D, not less because of the pandemic, they've just moved online.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 20, 2020, 11:27:35 am

Online rpg loses about 50% of the joy of it though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 20, 2020, 11:28:43 am

Quote from: scriver on May 20, 2020, 11:27:35 am

Online rpg loses about 50% of the joy of it though

Significantly higher than that with Play by Post.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 20, 2020, 11:35:54 am

Quote from: scriver on May 20, 2020, 11:27:35 am

Online rpg loses about 50% of the joy of it though

Its definitely a different experience, but most folks I know are still having a blast with the switch. Personally I'm slightly biased though because a lot of my games have been online.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 20, 2020, 11:59:50 am

Mine too, that's why I'm biased against it ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 20, 2020, 12:01:18 pm

Quote from: scriver on May 20, 2020, 11:59:50 am

Mine too, that's why I'm biased against it ;)

I can definitely understand that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 20, 2020, 07:12:23 pm

I play mostly online - voice only. Things are a little harder to keep interesting without a visual element (body language/a map) but I've also had my best games online. Most of the ones I've played in person have been average or lower, just due to the dynamics of the people playing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on May 20, 2020, 08:44:44 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on May 20, 2020, 11:35:54 am

Quote from: scriver on May 20, 2020, 11:27:35 am

Online rpg loses about 50% of the joy of it though

Its definitely a different experience, but most folks I know are still having a blast with the switch. Personally I'm slightly biased though because a lot of my games have been online.

This is what I was going to say.  Play by post is agonizingly slow compared to doing it in person, but I can't and probably never will be able to get into character in person like I can with a play by post game.  As a result, I really prefer online RPGs in whatever format.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2020, 03:03:26 am

Ah, okay, so

Quote from: Persus13 on May 19, 2020, 02:55:29 pm

white paper D&D builds and such online

did not in fact include "playing online" in the "and such online". I thought you were including online chat/forum games in the list of invalid experience.

And there again we see the use of clarifications, as my interpretation of your statement was clearly different from its intent.

Quote from: Persus13 on May 20, 2020, 10:52:04 am

And the listing of criteria doesn't disqualify haste or dominate person.

In your interpretation and opinion, sure. And I can definitely see how that could be a valid conclusion to make.

What I'm trying to say is that not everyone's going to see it that way, so even the DMs and players who specifically want to follow the official core rules a la Crawford to the letter may end up with different interpretations due to how the clarification is worded.

Yes, that table will probably land upon an internal agreement sooner or later without too many ruffled feathers, but the idea is to try and minimize arguments of intent and interpretation between those who want to use the rules as written.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on May 21, 2020, 11:57:19 am

D&D is the only line I'm aware of where a large swath of players have such an obsession with the nebulous "rules as that one flaky dude with a Twitter account says they should be this week."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2020, 12:50:39 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on May 21, 2020, 11:57:19 am

"rules as that one flaky dude with a Twitter account says they should be this week."

...this is the D&D thread, not Ameripol

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 22, 2020, 10:30:21 pm

I really got to sucker people into Shadowrun again. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYnGYTwUMAEjdXL?format=jpg&name=small)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 22, 2020, 11:22:35 pm

Combining those last two posts, the dystopic behavior of the US during this crisis is prime SR material. Quarantines, armed protests, corporations pushing for reopening at the expense of lives. Really easily gets the thoughts running.

Got a DnD session tomorrow. I generally plan very loosely - general ideas and maybe looking up some monsters then heavy RP and improv for the game. I'm trying to improve as a GM, so instead, I'm do more of the plan a ton and be willing to throw out the work. Any advice on riding the line between under and over preparation?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on May 23, 2020, 12:37:22 am

Here's a good article on prepping (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39885/roleplaying-games/smart-prep).  Prep less, prep smarter.

Some general tips I try to abide by:

1.  It should take less time to prep a given amount of material than it takes to play it at the table.
2.  Do not use published adventures as a model for what your own content should look like.   No one else will use your prep.
3.  Anything you'll remember at the table without a prompt should not be written down
4.  What you do write down should be in whatever minimum shorthand is necessary to job your memory.  No complete sentences.
5.  Never ever ever ever ever ever ever do choose-your-own-adventure style plotting.  (e.g. if players do A, X happens, if they do B, Y happens).  It's a gigantic waste of time.
6.  Mapping out NPC relationships, goals, and resources for achieving those goals is much more value-added.  You can get the same dynamic effect of a fully plotted CYOA without prepping all that shit, you just reference the map to see how NPCs respond to the players' activities.

Don't plan a ton.  No plan survives contact with the players.  Do as little as possible to run a good game.  Some wasted prep is inevitable, so prep the stuff that will always be useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 23, 2020, 09:06:04 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on May 23, 2020, 12:37:22 am

Here's a good article on prepping (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39885/roleplaying-games/smart-prep).  Prep less, prep smarter.

Some general tips I try to abide by:

1.  It should take less time to prep a given amount of material than it takes to play it at the table.
2.  Do not use published adventures as a model for what your own content should look like.   No one else will use your prep.
3.  Anything you'll remember at the table without a prompt should not be written down
4.  What you do write down should be in whatever minimum shorthand is necessary to job your memory.  No complete sentences.
5.  Never ever ever ever ever ever ever do choose-your-own-adventure style plotting.  (e.g. if players do A, X happens, if they do B, Y happens).  It's a gigantic waste of time.
6.  Mapping out NPC relationships, goals, and resources for achieving those goals is much more value-added.  You can get the same dynamic effect of a fully plotted CYOA without prepping all that shit, you just reference the map to see how NPCs respond to the players' activities.

Don't plan a ton.  No plan survives contact with the players.  Do as little as possible to run a good game.  Some wasted prep is inevitable, so prep the stuff that will always be useful.

Yes. That's why I started building with why something is happening, and who is doing it. If you know who the other people involved are, and their motivations, you know how they would react when the players did something you didn't expect. Which, there are more of them than there are of you, someone will come up with something you didn't think of. And, as they point out in the article, caring about how you want the players to approach a puzzle isn't helpful, and just makes the game worse. Maybe consider ways they might be able to approach a problem (and make sure there are multiple options, and you have an idea of what they would see if they go different places), but railroading is just frustrating for both the GM and the players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 25, 2020, 06:04:03 am

Step one: Cast Flesh to Stone on hapless individual and maintain the damn thing until it takes properly.

Step two: Cast Stone Shape on your new statue. "The object you create can have up to two hinges and a latch, but finer mechanical detail isn’t possible."

Step three: Find a way of reversing petrification

Step four: Enjoy your new doorman.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 25, 2020, 08:23:19 am

A but wouldn't the doorman upon returning to flesh immediately go into shock, die, and rot?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on May 25, 2020, 08:42:53 am

Quote from: scriver on May 25, 2020, 08:23:19 am

A but wouldn't the doorman upon returning to flesh immediately go into shock, die, and rot?

Gentle Repose is your friend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 25, 2020, 09:07:02 am

Someone call the police. This should be illegal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 25, 2020, 10:19:00 am

Look, just because humans usually need most of their squishy bits to live doesn't mean they need them all in the same place all the time...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 25, 2020, 11:01:59 am

Let's go further. Let's build as house man.

The walls are giants. The roof tiles are gnomes.

The floor plates are kender, because they suck

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 25, 2020, 06:46:46 pm

Oh. If these walls could talk...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 26, 2020, 01:42:22 pm

I hear doormen are good for security.

Quote from: scriver on May 25, 2020, 11:01:59 am

Let's go further. Let's build as house man.

The walls are giants. The roof tiles are gnomes.

The floor plates are kender, because they suck

What's that you say? Epic Transmutation quest, you say?



On an unrelated note, I'm a little bit surprised there isn't some "deep dark woods"-themed warlock patron. You'd think the concept of creepy mysterious forest entities would be popular enough that they'd get some representation, but apparently no...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 26, 2020, 02:10:44 pm

That's Fey though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 26, 2020, 02:31:15 pm

To an extent, sure. But not all fey are woodsie, and not all that lurks within the woods are fey. Also the patron spells/abilities really don't have much to do with the wild, except for Plant Growth and Dominate Beast (which are admittedly good thematic picks).

I feel like it's kinda lacking for the nitty-gritty savage woods nature cult shtick, personally...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 26, 2020, 11:36:30 pm

GOO has some fear effects - I guess you could mix the two for a more "dark woods" origin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 27, 2020, 07:18:29 am

Quote from: delphonso on May 26, 2020, 11:36:30 pm

GOO has some fear effects - I guess you could mix the two for a more "dark woods" origin.

Yeah, like... It's this funky place between Archfey and GOO that I feel could do with a bit of its own personality. And, heh, what got me on this bend in the first place was the savages from Darkwoods (the game), so yeah...



Also, I just spent the past... I dunno, 20 minutes, crunching numbers on a hilarious build that I just checked now and realized doesn't work at all. Phooey. 14d6+60d8+25 sounded like fun.


EDIT: Well okay, didn't take me too long to find another thingy with a 304.5 average damage in one turn. Slightly happier now.

In semi-related news, I've also revised the "annoy everyone by rolling too many dice" build.

Lightfoot halfling, Hexblade 1/Fighter 2/Assassin 3/Sorcerer 14 (Doesn't really matter what kind but fuck it, let's go for Wild Magic to potentially roll more things)

Surprise your opponent (shouldn't be too difficult, just show them your build). Assassin grants advantage on all attack rolls (including spells!) against creatures that haven't had a turn yet in combat, and any hit on a surprised creature (including spells!) is automatically a critical.

Hexblade's Curse, Action Surge, cast Scorching Ray twice using your 6th and a 7th level spell slots. 15 attacks made with advantage, so that's 30d20 with a free reroll for every natural 1 'cause we're cute. Scorching Ray does 2d6 on a hit, but any hit is a critical so it's 4d6 now.

So that's 60d6 if everything lands, which since we're running on advantage and Halfling there's a fairly reasonable chance of getting a good number of them in there.

Going for Halfling instead of Tiefling into Flames of Phlegethos was a hard sell, but I think the overall increased chance of hitting (and therefore adding another 4d6 to the pile of dice needed) won out in the end over one reroll of every 1 on those d6s. But it's a matter of taste, really.


Now, you could of course dump Hexblade in favor of grabbing another level in Sorc; thereby ending up with 17 total rays or 34d20 and 68d6, which is the more optimal route for pure dice... But I've been on a damage-maxing bend today and couldn't really pass up the chance of adding a +6 damage mod to each ray, for a cool +90 damage if they all hit. Which works out to... *mumbling* ... 300 average damage, on the dot (with everything hitting). Well enough to splat a purple worm in one whizz.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on May 27, 2020, 10:25:56 am

Yeah there's definitely a role there for that to be its own subclass, although any of the current warlock patrons could be flavored as being a dark woods patron (except maybe celestial).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 31, 2020, 05:15:04 am

I might be coming into a lot of freetime in June and July. Anybody here interested in a mini-campaign for like...4 session across a month?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 31, 2020, 06:02:12 am

I'm always preliminarily interested, depending on if the time fits (GMT+1 here, so I don't want to impose my timezone needs on a mostly, say,  American group).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 31, 2020, 10:53:07 am

Quote from: delphonso on May 31, 2020, 05:15:04 am

I might be coming into a lot of freetime in June and July. Anybody here interested in a mini-campaign for like...4 session across a month?

Maybe. What system or genre?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 31, 2020, 05:54:39 pm

DnD, presumably DF-adjacent fantasy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 31, 2020, 08:09:14 pm

What do you guys think of my campaign map?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/SW7RGkP.png)

I wanted to trick my players into playing an East Asian inspired campaign without realising it was East Asian themed. It's full of butchered Anglicised Chinese, ancient China history jokes or references and the map was made from the POV of an Immortal bureaucrat with a very low opinion of anything they can't control. Most of the names are just true names because I love true names on maps. Program used was Hextml which was pretty easy to use
https://hextml.playest.net/

There is a fantasy Korea analogue farther West. I had to place fantasy Japan analogue closer because one of my players loves Tokyo Drift references too much. Everything technically belongs to one empire, which was long ago united by the Yellow Serpent Emperor. The Yellow Serpent disappeared and left his descendants in charge of running the Empire; the current Emperor is a stunted dragonling who is being fed poison to stop him from growing up, ensuring he can be managed / controlled easily by the various factions vying for control. Many people believe the Shah Mountain is in fact the Yellow Serpent taking a long nap, but either this isn't true, or no one's figured out how to wake up the mountain.

The weather is carefully controlled by the government from their Six Towers of Elemental Regulation in the SE Capital. Unlicensed weather is swiftly punished. The Palace of Eternal Everlasting Joy is where the Emperor Dragonling lives, alongside whichever faction is in charge at the time (weather bureaucrats, charming eunuchs, military, nobles, probably the adventuring party if they play their cards right). Government house is where all the factions pretend to not stab each other in the back. Each layer of the capital contains millions of people, with the most important being in the centre and least important in the outer rings.

The really long dragon wall separates all under heaven from the barbarian wasteland of degenerate grass and seditious rainwater. It is a brilliant fortification which protects against teleportation and even dragon attacks (being built by a dragon and all). The farther south you go, the wilder the lands become and the more you start encountering massive beasts. The grass and rainwater in the far south is considered an enemy of the state, because unlike north of the wall, in the south the grass and rainwater do not obey the law or tradition, and WILL encourage you to break most laws and rules. Being sent beyond the wall is often considered a demotion in the military, a punishment for civilians and a reward for people who are tired of the rules. This places like Badtown are fairly chill places to live, where you can live freely if you are willing to tolerate the occasional wilderland attack.

The Cliffs of Amber and the Jade Mountains are made of their respective materials. However, mining the rock from these mountains without a permit from the government is a capital offence. The Warlords of Jiyang June and Merchant Princesses of Shangrune WILL enforce their legal monopoly violently. The names of these cities are just incredible bastardisations of the Chinese for army general and merchant.

Winelake and Meatforest is a lake of wine and meatforest created by the late Emperor Mayeo Young, whose name means useless. A reference to the excess of King Zhou, who actually in real life did make a meat forest and wine lake. Inhabitants are mixed in regards to having their lake turned into a winelake; most hate seeing their livelihood go away. The orc theatre actors and opera performers of orcbants however, enjoy it greatly.

In the far north the jungles of savages / cannibals is incredibly difficult terrain to traverse, with many nomadic tribes, towns and villages scattered amongst the wild things and jungle dryads. Most of them are all pretty swell people, however having a nasty reputation helps keep the foreigners away.

The Shanding Riverlands are an idyllic and peaceful place of artisanship, scholarship and bigdongs. East of the Tiyen Sha tower is the roof of the world. If my players have ended up there something has gone terribly wrong. Everything else on the map is pretty self-explanatory. Also the scale I'm using is that 1 tile here is 60 miles, so this is legit a continent-spanning overworld map. I'm already making smaller scale maps for where they'll start, and they'll use this map to tell me where they want to go. As this is pre-rebellion, civil war and plague, there are tens of millions of races running around in an even mix in most towns. The notable exceptions are of course elfwood, orcbants and dwarf pirate island.




Capital Offences of Tiyen Sha:

THE THREE AXIOMS
1. Always respect the Emperor
2. Always respect your parents
3. Always respect your neighbours

CAPITAL OFFENCES
1. Unregulated dying is punishable by death.
2. Unregulated mining is punishable by death.
3. Unregulated weather is punishable by death.

MONETARY REGULATION
1. Refusal to accept debased coin is punishable by death.
2. Refusal to accept paper money is punishable by death.
3. Refusal to pay taxes is punishable by death.

[There are a few more less severe rules and laws, mostly about worker rights protections, building regulation standards, how much wine one is permitted to add to a lake before it is legally no longer water e.t.c.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 31, 2020, 08:40:16 pm

I was going to suggest that the Jungle of Incoherent Savages definitely was the result of bad anthropology degrees, but I see that's been taken care of.

Winelake and Meatforest should be their appropriate colors.

Tell me of the Spicy Ocean and its secrets.

Now that I'm thinking about it, weather manipulation is probably one of the most OP powers a preindustrial civilization could have. The harvests are on-time all year, every year. And probably also incomparable ecological devastation around the rest of the planet, which might go a long way to explaining the rebel grass and rainwater, but still man, those harvests. Which probably also means that if The Party were to fuck with the control towers that they could easily kill millions of people and permanantly destroy this civilization without even meaning to!

These monetary laws speak to the existence of a hardcore gold standard-based rebel organization who will not submit to the tyranny of fiat currency, and that scares me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on May 31, 2020, 09:16:16 pm

If you want some added authenticity, place names in Chinese are very geographical and descriptive. Horsetown, for example, might be more like Brown Horse (Town). The cardinal directions, descriptive colors, and physical traits are the go to for generic naming.

Guangzhou  (Wide Area)
Shanghai (Above Sea)
Shenzhen (Deep Ditch)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 31, 2020, 09:47:48 pm

Quote from: delphonso on May 31, 2020, 09:16:16 pm

If you want some added authenticity, place names in Chinese are very geographical and descriptive. Horsetown, for example, might be more like Brown Horse (Town). The cardinal directions, descriptive colors, and physical traits are the go to for generic naming.

Guangzhou  (Wide Area)
Shanghai (Above Sea)
Shenzhen (Deep Ditch)

Yeah, but I think the idea was that the players aren't supposed to realize it's actually Asia, and naming it in non-English might give it away.

Same as when FASA named the forest in Earthdawn the Wyrmwood instead of Wormwood (in the local language), and carefully cropped the map so the Black Sea wasn't easily recognizable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

My favourite part is the weather regulation. Is it true or just propaganda? Who knows, it's great either way.

My punk band in this setting would be called the Little Wayward Cloud Puff

Anyway it looks great LW. I was going to say I noticed the bigdong but I see you brought it up yourself in at the end. I'm hoping there's a mountain really big hill (but the locals insist it is a mountain) called Bigdong Mountain in the area.

How do a meat forest look, exactly? Both in real life and in-game? Is it a fake thing like a normal wood that's continuously decorated with meat by human hands, or is it a real (as in self-growing, if through magical means) forest where bone trees and meat fruit grow? Do they have to continuously employ adventurers to deal with their constant goblin infestation problem?

Quote from: delphonso on May 31, 2020, 09:16:16 pm

If you want some added authenticity, place names in Chinese are very geographical and descriptive. Horsetown, for example, might be more like Brown Horse (Town). The cardinal directions, descriptive colors, and physical traits are the go to for generic naming.

Guangzhou  (Wide Area)
Shanghai (Above Sea)
Shenzhen (Deep Ditch)

Deep Blue Sea?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 01, 2020, 05:22:39 am

Shenluhai

I like all this because I lived in Shenzhen for a while and hated everything about it. A deep ditch seems appropriate as a name for it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 08:01:35 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on May 31, 2020, 08:40:16 pm

I was going to suggest that the Jungle of Incoherent Savages definitely was the result of bad anthropology degrees, but I see that's been taken care of.

Yeah there's degrees of chauvinism inside the Imperial Court. Celestial Draconic is the Court's only recognized language which requires understanding of celestial and draconic to understand. Common is a descendant of draconic, with each city having their own dialect. The further away from SE Capital the more the dialect reflects local languages, with the SE Capital common almost being identical to draconic, whilst the people in the mountains / jungles / far grasslands speaking their relatively uninfluenced / completely uninfluenced native languages of tiyenese, conglish and fanpanese respectively.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on May 31, 2020, 08:40:16 pm

Winelake and Meatforest should be their appropriate colors.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/pbiHdu9.png)

Good call

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on May 31, 2020, 08:40:16 pm

Tell me of the Spicy Ocean and its secrets.

Honestly I haven't fleshed it out well. I feel like the name and mystery is better than anything I could come up with. If I had to give it form, I'd say it's a place where the ocean is split into shelves of oceanic civilisations living in an actual spicy ocean. The ocean here is made spicy by its unusual spicy salt content, which is sourced from a spicy vent in the Rempah Trench. Various spicy fauna grow beneath, on and above the waves. Dense underwater jungles of sargasso saffron wave about, schools of coriander fish swimming between. The mermen tend to their crops of kelpmint, whilst above archipelagos are inhabited by countless mangroves of spicy spices - cinnamon, cardamon, white, red, black and green pepper. Magical spices like holy moly, devil's root and Jain's tears all provide a taste of what is on offer.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on May 31, 2020, 08:40:16 pm

Now that I'm thinking about it, weather manipulation is probably one of the most OP powers a preindustrial civilization could have. The harvests are on-time all year, every year. And probably also incomparable ecological devastation around the rest of the planet, which might go a long way to explaining the rebel grass and rainwater, but still man, those harvests. Which probably also means that if The Party were to fuck with the control towers that they could easily kill millions of people and permanantly destroy this civilization without even meaning to!

Literal Heaven's Mandate. If the rivers flood, if the rains dry, if the storms blow - the government and the Emperor are directly accountable and failure demands a change in administration. So in times of peace the weather is idyllic all year round, in times of chaos the adventuring party has to start stocking up on storm/heat/cold protection, as nature tries to restore a natural cycle in a realm where the seasons are on a government schedule

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on May 31, 2020, 08:40:16 pm

These monetary laws speak to the existence of a hardcore gold standard-based rebel organization who will not submit to the tyranny of fiat currency, and that scares me.

HOIST THE GOLD STANDARD HIGH
THE GOLD TURBAN REBELLION WILL PREVAIL

Quote from: delphonso on May 31, 2020, 09:16:16 pm

If you want some added authenticity, place names in Chinese are very geographical and descriptive. Horsetown, for example, might be more like Brown Horse (Town). The cardinal directions, descriptive colors, and physical traits are the go to for generic naming.
Guangzhou  (Wide Area)
Shanghai (Above Sea)
Shenzhen (Deep Ditch)

Brownhorse is a great one, which I think I'll use. Cardinal directions I feel are mandatory for naming ever since I found out Beijing means north capital, Nanjing south capital and Dongjing east capital. That is functional and adorable naming, whilst a lot of generic naming is easily forgotten in the UK (off the top of my head, cheapside, southbank, westminster, newcastle, portsmouth, innsmouth, london bridge, wessex, essex, sussex, middlesex, a lot of the x-woods). Literal descriptions of the local area / landmark sounds very natural when you say it in one word, and I think it's even more immersive than if I gave everything dwarvish/elvish/draconic names, because the players read the names as if they were locals instead of outsiders

Quote from: Iduno on May 31, 2020, 09:47:48 pm

Yeah, but I think the idea was that the players aren't supposed to realize it's actually Asia, and naming it in non-English might give it away.

Same as when FASA named the forest in Earthdawn the Wyrmwood instead of Wormwood (in the local language), and carefully cropped the map so the Black Sea wasn't easily recognizable.

My favourite ones are the ones where it's just Earth but flipped upside down, or the land and ocean have been inverted. In the latter case it took me three years to realise the sea I was looking at looked suspiciously like the British Isles coastline

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

My favourite part is the weather regulation. Is it true or just propaganda? Who knows, it's great either way.

When the system runs as intended, the government uses the six capital towers to cast control weather (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Control%20Weather), which normally has a 5 mile radius. So they use these gargantuan towers sprinkled across Tiyen Sha to spread their control across most of the country

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/hVPAXiK.png)

It gets less reliable the further away from a tower you get, and the further away from the radius you get. This is why the Warlords of Jiyang June get autonomy / protectorship over the Cliffs of Amber, why the inhabitants of the jungles of incoherent savages / cannibals can get away with paying no taxes and openly ignoring the Emperor's sovereignty, and why the Empire hasn't bothered trying to change the desert of bad prices.

If even one of the six towers of elemental regulation are damaged or destroyed, the whole system could shut down. Each of the towers, including the relay towers, needs incredibly high level druids/clerics/wizards to function. As these boys and girls can be counted with fingers and toes, losing them to assassination, retirement or industrial action could be devastating if it occurs at the same time. In addition, the towers are garrisoned by elite troops loyal to the capital. However, corruption, demoralization, rebellion can all occur, with the Lonely Tower a particular hotspot for trouble, and local lords wielding great influence over nearby towers.

This is basically to explain narratively why rebellions are so rare (the government controls the weather and can turn your rebellion into a nightmare of storms), but when they do occur, it quickly devolves into regional warlordism (the government foolishly empowers local polities to raise armies and take control of their local towers in order to put down the rebels, ignoring the fact that this makes the local polity immune to hostile weather actions and gives them control of the local weather, making them the de facto sovereign of their demense).

If all goes well, the campaign should have a nice progression of:
1. Everything is working as intended, but there are signs of weakness in the land (players have to deal with corrupt officials from time to time, peasants request their help dealing with problems the government normally deals with, like wild boars raiding their farms and menacing their village. It's Imperial Examination season, and the players are going to get the option of taking the exams - if they succeed, they get promoted.
2. Everything is not working exactly as intended, but things are still fine for now. Players are tasked by local magistrates to locate an isolated zombie plague outbreak before it reaches the megacities. They can retake the Imperial Examination, but whatever their success/failure, they will be demoted, as the Court employed too many civil servants. A trainee-graduate warlock accidentally made a pact with an enemy of the state (the fiddling fiend), and needs the party's help to cheat pass the Imperial Examination without being discovered (they now have devil horns and a tail, and also show up as evil in detect spells).
3. Shit's about to go down. Someone murdered the Weather Wizard of the Lonely Tower, and in the 30 minutes the Lonely Tower was unmanned, a raincloud full of seditious rainwater made it over the wall. The players can either try clean up the puddles of seditious water / contaminated tea leaves, or go after whoever assassinated the weather wizard. Either way, the players will discover rumours that a Gold Standard is being raised high.
4. Oh fuck it's all fucked. Plague, storms, unregulated weather, rebellions, local warlord factionalism, armies from beyond the wall, apocalyptic rumours and the Shah mountain is erupting. This is when I get to throw all sorts of high level critters at my players :]

I'm trying to set it up so that no matter what my players want to do, they get a feel of how things should be and get emotionally invested in some characters, before things get dark and full of terrors. Also I'm using the horde template some legend homebrewed to greatly streamline hundreds of soldiers and peasants running around, so can roll 1 dice for 1 horde instead of 120 dice for 120 peasants. I'm trying to stay away from railroading, so I hope my skill for improv and off the shelf bullshit will serve me well. Any tips on off-rail DMing is appreciated though ;D

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

My punk band in this setting would be called the Little Wayward Cloud Puff

Can I add the Wayward Cloud into my setting? It's a fucking great name, I can totally imagine a bard group running around with such a name

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

Anyway it looks great LW. I was going to say I noticed the bigdong but I see you brought it up yourself in at the end. I'm hoping there's a mountain really big hill (but the locals insist it is a mountain) called Bigdong Mountain in the area.

Yep, the Riverlands is full of hills and mountains, I think I can include that. I love the idea of the locals getting defensive if they refer to it as a hill

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

How do a meat forest look, exactly? Both in real life and in-game? Is it a fake thing like a normal wood that's continuously decorated with meat by human hands, or is it a real (as in self-growing, if through magical means) forest where bone trees and meat fruit grow? Do they have to continuously employ adventurers to deal with their constant goblin infestation problem?

In real life it was said to be a collection of trees covered in skewers of roast meat. I like to envision it as a more stylistic version of a meat drying rack.

In game I want it to be a bit more fantastic, with the meat forest being a magical invention of one of the more decadent Dragon Emperors. In times of peace the meat forest looks like a bunch of plants, only meatier. Instead of green leaves, the leaves are skin, and you can see the veins underneath. If you cut them they bleed, and the trunks of meat trees have a continuously growing spine in the middle, flesh and fat in the outer layers and incredibly tough hide for the outermost layer. Eating one of the meat plants is a decidedly unpleasant experience, unless you enjoy raw meat. When it is harvest season however, the pseudoplants produce branches that ripen into dried meats good to eat for most humanoids. If left alone, these branches break off and form a new meat tree, meet bush or meat grass. The meat pseudoplants are incredibly inactive to conserve energy, and are omnivorous, feeding from root mouths (that look like lamprey eel mouths). They are tended to by stewards of the meat forest, who keep all of the fauna well-fed with vegetables and kitchen waste.

Low-level threat ideas include packs of wild wolves, small bands of meat bandits
Mid-level threat ideas include the camp of the meat bandits
High-level threat ideas include the stewards going AWOL, and as a result, the meat forest becoming hungry

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:53:21 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 08:01:35 am

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

My favourite part is the weather regulation. Is it true or just propaganda? Who knows, it's great either way.

When the system runs as intended, the government uses the six capital towers to cast control weather (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Control%20Weather), which normally has a 5 mile radius. So they use these gargantuan towers sprinkled across Tiyen Sha to spread their control across most of the country

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/hVPAXiK.png)

It gets less reliable the further away from a tower you get, and the further away from the radius you get. This is why the Warlords of Jiyang June get autonomy / protectorship over the Cliffs of Amber, why the inhabitants of the jungles of incoherent savages / cannibals can get away with paying no taxes and openly ignoring the Emperor's sovereignty, and why the Empire hasn't bothered trying to change the desert of bad prices.

If even one of the six towers of elemental regulation are damaged or destroyed, the whole system could shut down. Each of the towers, including the relay towers, needs incredibly high level druids/clerics/wizards to function. As these boys and girls can be counted with fingers and toes, losing them to assassination, retirement or industrial action could be devastating if it occurs at the same time. In addition, the towers are garrisoned by elite troops loyal to the capital. However, corruption, demoralization, rebellion can all occur, with the Lonely Tower a particular hotspot for trouble, and local lords wielding great influence over nearby towers.

This is basically to explain narratively why rebellions are so rare (the government controls the weather and can turn your rebellion into a nightmare of storms), but when they do occur, it quickly devolves into regional warlordism (the government foolishly empowers local polities to raise armies and take control of their local towers in order to put down the rebels, ignoring the fact that this makes the local polity immune to hostile weather actions and gives them control of the local weather, making them the de facto sovereign of their demense).

If all goes well, the campaign should have a nice progression of:
1. Everything is working as intended, but there are signs of weakness in the land (players have to deal with corrupt officials from time to time, peasants request their help dealing with problems the government normally deals with, like wild boars raiding their farms and menacing their village. It's Imperial Examination season, and the players are going to get the option of taking the exams - if they succeed, they get promoted.
2. Everything is not working exactly as intended, but things are still fine for now. Players are tasked by local magistrates to locate an isolated zombie plague outbreak before it reaches the megacities. They can retake the Imperial Examination, but whatever their success/failure, they will be demoted, as the Court employed too many civil servants. A trainee-graduate warlock accidentally made a pact with an enemy of the state (the fiddling fiend), and needs the party's help to cheat pass the Imperial Examination without being discovered (they now have devil horns and a tail, and also show up as evil in detect spells).
3. Shit's about to go down. Someone murdered the Weather Wizard of the Lonely Tower, and in the 30 minutes the Lonely Tower was unmanned, a raincloud full of seditious rainwater made it over the wall. The players can either try clean up the puddles of seditious water / contaminated tea leaves, or go after whoever assassinated the weather wizard. Either way, the players will discover rumours that a Gold Standard is being raised high.
4. Oh fuck it's all fucked. Plague, storms, unregulated weather, rebellions, local warlord factionalism, armies from beyond the wall, apocalyptic rumours and the Shah mountain is erupting. This is when I get to throw all sorts of high level critters at my players :]

I'm trying to set it up so that no matter what my players want to do, they get a feel of how things should be and get emotionally invested in some characters, before things get dark and full of terrors. Also I'm using the horde template some legend homebrewed to greatly streamline hundreds of soldiers and peasants running around, so can roll 1 dice for 1 horde instead of 120 dice for 120 peasants. I'm trying to stay away from railroading, so I hope my skill for improv and off the shelf bullshit will serve me well. Any tips on off-rail DMing is appreciated though ;D

Many thumbs up! I'm using thumbs horde rules, so I only have to raise one but it means 120 thumbs!

Quote

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

My punk band in this setting would be called the Little Wayward Cloud Puff

Can I add the Wayward Cloud into my setting? It's a fucking great name, I can totally imagine a bard group running around with such a name

Of course you can it's not like OH WAIT ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL

Related song by Bob Hund (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBMwUxUhiU) (the name means tralala little cloud puff)

Quote

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

Anyway it looks great LW. I was going to say I noticed the bigdong but I see you brought it up yourself in at the end. I'm hoping there's a mountain really big hill (but the locals insist it is a mountain) called Bigdong Mountain in the area.

Yep, the Riverlands is full of hills and mountains, I think I can include that. I love the idea of the locals getting defensive if they refer to it as a hill

Have you seen The Man Who Went Up a Hill but Came Down a Mountain? Or read, I think it was a book first.

Quote

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:34:15 am

How do a meat forest look, exactly? Both in real life and in-game? Is it a fake thing like a normal wood that's continuously decorated with meat by human hands, or is it a real (as in self-growing, if through magical means) forest where bone trees and meat fruit grow? Do they have to continuously employ adventurers to deal with their constant goblin infestation problem?

In real life it was said to be a collection of trees covered in skewers of roast meat. I like to envision it as a more stylistic version of a meat drying rack.

In game I want it to be a bit more fantastic, with the meat forest being a magical invention of one of the more decadent Dragon Emperors. In times of peace the meat forest looks like a bunch of plants, only meatier. Instead of green leaves, the leaves are skin, and you can see the veins underneath. If you cut them they bleed, and the trunks of meat trees have a continuously growing spine in the middle, flesh and fat in the outer layers and incredibly tough hide for the outermost layer. Eating one of the meat plants is a decidedly unpleasant experience, unless you enjoy raw meat. When it is harvest season however, the pseudoplants produce branches that ripen into dried meats good to eat for most humanoids. If left alone, these branches break off and form a new meat tree, meet bush or meat grass. The meat pseudoplants are incredibly inactive to conserve energy, and are omnivorous, feeding from root mouths (that look like lamprey eel mouths). They are tended to by stewards of the meat forest, who keep all of the fauna well-fed with vegetables and kitchen waste.

Low-level threat ideas include packs of wild wolves, small bands of meat bandits
Mid-level threat ideas include the camp of the meat bandits
High-level threat ideas include the stewards going AWOL, and as a result, the meat forest becoming hungry

Presentation idea - encourage them to travel through the meat forest early on while the realm is still calm so they experience that first. Then if they spend the night in the forest, have them roll perception -- if anyone fails, have them wake up with a foot dragged into a mouth hole :D

Just to show that the forest isn't all nice and dandy. Then if they return when shit has hit the fan the effect of how it has changed will have greater impact :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 01, 2020, 03:48:51 pm

So, non-evil humanoids killed by a shadow's strength drain attack, they rise 1d4 hours later as a new shadow...

Are there any other good examples of self-propagating monsters? Like, for the sake of a city rapidly being torn apart by an infestation that gets more powerful the longer it's left unchecked.

It's just that it's a bit difficult to barricade the door against shadow attacks, but I guess that'd make them spread and become a problem that much faster...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on June 01, 2020, 03:52:19 pm

Lycanthropes. Any of them really, although werebears tend to be more solitary.

Wight's have something similar to shadows, but it only creates zombies sadly. I'm sure there's some other undead that do this as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 01, 2020, 03:52:33 pm

There are also the Slaadi, but if you think shadows are hard to fight against, they definitely are too hard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 01, 2020, 03:55:34 pm

You could modify zombies to be infectious. Here's a video someone made on that.
https://youtu.be/rT6jGPVcPIw

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 04:03:32 pm

Quote from: Kagus on June 01, 2020, 03:48:51 pm

So, non-evil humanoids killed by a shadow's strength drain attack, they rise 1d4 hours later as a new shadow...

Are there any other good examples of self-propagating monsters? Like, for the sake of a city rapidly being torn apart by an infestation that gets more powerful the longer it's left unchecked.

It's just that it's a bit difficult to barricade the door against shadow attacks, but I guess that'd make them spread and become a problem that much faster...

Rogue simulacrum army (https://www.enworld.org/threads/attack-of-the-clones-simulacrum.427095/)

Mimics consuming furnitures, coins, shop items, whole houses and replacing them with mimic copies

Undead of all stripes (zombies, vampires, skelebones)

An incredibly aggressive ooze

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:53:21 pm

Many thumbs up! I'm using thumbs horde rules, so I only have to raise one but it means 120 thumbs!

120 finger guns to you

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:53:21 pm

Of course you can it's not like OH WAIT ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL

It's ok, I have my own original name instead, Cold Wayward Cloud Rain, completely different OC

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:53:21 pm

Have you seen The Man Who Went Up a Hill but Came Down a Mountain? Or read, I think it was a book first.

Reading the synopsis, it really feels like the make Pluto a planet again campaign. Symbols are important

Quote from: scriver on June 01, 2020, 12:53:21 pm

Presentation idea - encourage them to travel through the meat forest early on while the realm is still calm so they experience that first. Then if they spend the night in the forest, have them roll perception -- if anyone fails, have them wake up with a foot dragged into a mouth hole :D

Just to show that the forest isn't all nice and dandy. Then if they return when shit has hit the fan the effect of how it has changed will have greater impact :D

I told my players there will be two mandatory quests at the start, one being find the plague patient 0, the other being find the pig. The pig has been terrorizing local farms and will almost certainly be taking a detour through meat forest >:D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:13:28 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 08:01:35 am

Honestly I haven't fleshed it out well. I feel like the name and mystery is better than anything I could come up with. If I had to give it form, I'd say it's a place where the ocean is split into shelves of oceanic civilisations living in an actual spicy ocean. The ocean here is made spicy by its unusual spicy salt content, which is sourced from a spicy vent in the Rempah Trench. Various spicy fauna grow beneath, on and above the waves. Dense underwater jungles of sargasso saffron wave about, schools of coriander fish swimming between. The mermen tend to their crops of kelpmint, whilst above archipelagos are inhabited by countless mangroves of spicy spices - cinnamon, cardamon, white, red, black and green pepper. Magical spices like holy moly, devil's root and Jain's tears all provide a taste of what is on offer.

I am strongly about this aesthetic and will make my trade upon the spicy crystal waters of this paradise, where presumably butter is rarer and more illegal than gold.

Quote

HOIST THE GOLD STANDARD HIGH
THE GOLD TURBAN REBELLION WILL PREVAIL

this will be good for magecoin

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 04:26:30 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:13:28 pm

I am strongly about this aesthetic and will make my trade upon the spicy crystal waters of this paradise, where presumably butter is rarer and more illegal than gold.

Pirates will inevitably inquire regarding your butty

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:13:28 pm

this will be good for magecoin

Magecoin is a scam, invest in roguecoin

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:40:29 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 04:26:30 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:13:28 pm

this will be good for magecoin

Magecoin is a scam, invest in roguecoin

you, a foolish imperial paperfucker: "b-b-but you can't measure the value of currency based on how many shadows the Rogue Standard can hide in on a midday sun, that's stupid!"

me, a glorious fiscal dissident and scientific value-scholar: "ha ha darkness printer go [REMAIN SILENT]"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 01, 2020, 06:43:55 pm

I would control the weather too if the rain was very spicy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 02, 2020, 03:10:50 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:40:29 pm

you, a foolish imperial paperfucker: "b-b-but you can't measure the value of currency based on how many shadows the Rogue Standard can hide in on a midday sun, that's stupid!"

me, a glorious fiscal dissident and scientific value-scholar: "ha ha darkness printer go [REMAIN SILENT]"

Imagine investing all your capital in a coin that can be tracked with an arcana check

Only roguecoin is a truly decentralised currency programmed using the thieves cant programming language, rendering it untraceable

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 02, 2020, 04:44:24 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 02, 2020, 03:10:50 am

Imagine investing all your capital in a coin that can be tracked with an arcana check

Only roguecoin is a truly decentralised currency programmed using the thieves cant programming language, rendering it untraceable

Ugggh, but @SCANT is just so inelegant... Have to write 5 lines to get a single useful command parsed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 02, 2020, 05:35:37 am

I pity the fools that invested into dracoinic during the bubble, now sitting on their horde of coins thinking they'll one day be valuable. Everyone knows the only value of commodities is in their trade.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on June 02, 2020, 07:59:25 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:40:29 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 04:26:30 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:13:28 pm

this will be good for magecoin

Magecoin is a scam, invest in roguecoin

you, a foolish imperial paperfucker: "b-b-but you can't measure the value of currency based on how many shadows the Rogue Standard can hide in on a midday sun, that's stupid!"

me, a glorious fiscal dissident and scientific value-scholar: "ha ha darkness printer go [REMAIN SILENT]"

Has something happened with the "But-but... Haha, [Thing] go [Brrr]" meme recently?
I've seen it a lot more times recently.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 02, 2020, 08:34:56 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on June 02, 2020, 07:59:25 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:40:29 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 04:26:30 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:13:28 pm

this will be good for magecoin

Magecoin is a scam, invest in roguecoin

you, a foolish imperial paperfucker: "b-b-but you can't measure the value of currency based on how many shadows the Rogue Standard can hide in on a midday sun, that's stupid!"

me, a glorious fiscal dissident and scientific value-scholar: "ha ha darkness printer go [REMAIN SILENT]"

Has something happened with the "But-but... Haha, [Thing] go [Brrr]" meme recently?
I've seen it a lot more times recently.

It was such a stupid joke that everyone knew would never catch on, so they made more jokes with the format to prove how it could never be a meme.

And now it's a meme.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on June 02, 2020, 09:12:38 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on June 02, 2020, 07:59:25 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:40:29 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 04:26:30 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2020, 04:13:28 pm

this will be good for magecoin

Magecoin is a scam, invest in roguecoin

you, a foolish imperial paperfucker: "b-b-but you can't measure the value of currency based on how many shadows the Rogue Standard can hide in on a midday sun, that's stupid!"

me, a glorious fiscal dissident and scientific value-scholar: "ha ha darkness printer go [REMAIN SILENT]"

Has something happened with the "But-but... Haha, [Thing] go [Brrr]" meme recently?
I've seen it a lot more times recently.

It's gone through a few iterations now, so it'll be harder to find on your own. Here it is. (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 02, 2020, 09:26:34 am

...isn't it much older than march 2020?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 02, 2020, 03:02:23 pm

by the way

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 08:01:35 am

meat bandits

Some call me the meat bandit
Some call me the gangster of körv

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 11:03:55 am

Spoiler: Middle Kingdom metroplitan hellscape (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/CBcWFhX.png)

I intend to drop my players on the harbour and give them 12 days to reach the Exam House before the Imperial Exams are over. This will be the start of the campaign hook, as either they work together to ford the rivers of humanoids, or inevitably they are late and miss the exams - from the harbour it takes exactly 11 1/2 days if they don't get lost to reach Exam House. Once they're at the exam house they're going to take a skill challenge.

The first is a DC25 history question, "Why was Loue Boss assassinated by his nephew in the era of restored tranquility?" Which just introduces the rules of the skill challenge. (One person is the primary skill user, other team members make DC 10 skill checks using other skills to reduce the main DC by 5). So for example, the cleric is the one answering the essay question, but the bard uses deception to make the essay sound more intellectual than it actually is, the barbarian makes an insight check to realise Loue Boss wasn't murdered, he let his nephew kill him e.t.c.

The second challenge is a mock police interrogation, where it becomes apparent that the police interrogator is looking for a confession regardless of whether the suspect committed the crime or not. If they get the suspect to confess; it's a success. If they confront the interrogator successfully, also a success. The meta-element of the Imperial Exam is that they're not just testing ability, but also personality.

For example, one of the tests is literally the invigilator telling the examinees to jump off a bridge into a dark pit (it's a very short drop with a safety mat and an illusion cast over it). They can use their skills to question the invigilator, they can use their skills to investigate the drop, they can refuse the test or just jump in regardless - and this kind of info'll be used to assign them to the nobility, military, government or the Internal Security Bureau (ISB). I've got a lot of tricks up my sleeve for this one, and I think I'll do a writeup once I actually manage to execute my dastardly schemes upon my players

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 03, 2020, 11:12:17 am

Quote from: scriver on June 02, 2020, 03:02:23 pm

by the way

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 01, 2020, 08:01:35 am

meat bandits

Some call me the meat bandit
Some call me the gangster of körv

My first thought was of a local-ish restaurant colloquially known as "the Meat Bank" (because we're all rednecks and the extent of our German knowledge is "schnitzel == meat").

What kind of RPG society would a meat bank be created within and why would its bandits stand out so much that they get a name of their own?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 03, 2020, 11:31:19 am

I like the Accident.

Since I don't like counting, what scale is that map in per tile?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 12:06:42 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 03, 2020, 11:31:19 am

I like the Accident.

Since I don't like counting, what scale is that map in per tile?

6 miles per tile

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 03, 2020, 12:18:50 pm

Are those walls 24 miles long?

Also that's a lot of people

Too many people

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 12:24:36 pm

Welcome to 1000 consecutive years of perfect harvests

DO NOT TOUCH

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 03, 2020, 12:39:50 pm

That's gonna go real bad real quick, huh?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 03, 2020, 02:50:30 pm

Wait, am I doing my math right? Taking some wikipedia figures (which as always have the issue of city v. metropolitan area comparisons, but so it goes):

The ancient city of Rome was, based on the walls, (maybe?) about 7-10 square miles for the city proper and anywhere from 80,000 to 1 million people, depending on the account one is using (and whether it includes the broader metropolitan area, which I don't think I saw a reference of in terms of how large an area that might be).

Had trouble quickly finding figures for ancient Chinese capitals, but seems to be roughly on par with Rome at times?

NYC is just over 300 miles of square land and a little under 9 million people.

Tokyo is 850 square miles, 14 million.

Beijing is 6,300 square miles, 21.5 million.

The map posted is about 1,530 square miles (if I counted right). But that's missing additional "metropolis" and "urban zone" areas...

Now I'm assuming/hoping the population density is lower than NYC or Tokyo (no high rises?), but that's still probably an awful lot of people indeed. I wonder how their sewer infrastructure is?

Edit: Also, thanks for sharing this. I clearly need to read more Chinese history.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 03:18:36 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 03, 2020, 12:18:50 pm

Are those walls 24 miles long?

Probably somewhere around 20 miles thick, as I interpret the white space on the wall tiles as being the same as their surroundings (so full of houses in this case). The Middle Kingdom historically was the only warring state that was strong enough to resist the first Dragon Emperor in open warfare; they joined the Empire willingly when the Dragon Emperor confirmed the privileges of the Kingdom. It's also why they're still legally a Kingdom, and why their walls are large and extra thicc

Quote from: scriver on June 03, 2020, 12:18:50 pm

Also that's a lot of people

Too many people

Yeah each big house represents at least 600,000 people living in a significant structure complex, the smaller house clusters represent 480,000-500,000 people a tile, so the capital city is around 80,000-100,000 people per sq. mile. The Worldheart City has a population density of 1,000,000 people per square mile, whilst the Oldtown Residential Area has a population density of 5,000,000 people per square mile. Additionally, no one knows how many people live in the Black Lotus Inn. People who check into the Inn rarely leave, and the Inn appears to never have issues accommodating an ever-increasing roster of guests - despite being a fairly small building to outside observers, the Black Lotus Inn likely contains a few billion people. The Southeast Capital has even higher population density than the Middle Kingdom Capital, which should be a fun experience once my players are higher level. There will be regular checks to see if players are capable of moving upstream/downstream of foot traffic, whether players are frightened of the gargantuan urban sprawl and crowds, and if players are able to find which way they need to go. If they can get flying transport or a reliable local transport willing to work on retainer, they'll be able to move much safer and much faster.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 12:24:36 pm

Welcome to 1000 consecutive years of perfect harvests
DO NOT TOUCH

Over 4,000 years so far, with very few plagues, civil unrest, wars or natural disasters

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 03, 2020, 12:39:50 pm

That's gonna go real bad real quick, huh?

All I'm gonna say is I'm greatly enjoying the stat blocks for peasant hordes, zombie hordes, skeleton hordes and army hordes

1 peasant is not a challenge for an adventuring party. The neighbourhood is

But at least until they're level 11 I hope it won't be a problem. My players are still making characters, and thus far the population dynamic is going to make things very spicy. Currently one of my players is undecided. One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.

Another is RPing a small-town girl who grew up in a precarious middle-class family (they made money off of selling drinks, food and lodging to off duty soldiers from the Lonely Tower. As the soldiers came in seasonal waves, some weeks they'd make lots of money, the rest of the year, nothing). She's making her way to the Middle Kingdom to realise her hopes and dreams of becoming a famous wizard (caveat being, she's a bard with a banjo). Can't wait to see how that player (good RPer) acts out her wonder at the irresponsible scale of habitation unfolding.

The fourth player is probably going to have the most painful reaction to the scale of the city. They're RP'ing a wholesome grandma tortle, whose grandson left Drift City for a new life on the mainland. Only, both of his parents believe he didn't leave of his own free will, and is in danger. The authorities in Drift City don't care because it's not their jurisdiction anyways, and they are certain a boy moving to the big cities for a job is not a newsworthy occurrence. So she's got to find her grandson in the proverbial needle in the haystack... There are so many opportunities to sprinkle in NPCs who say they saw a tortle boy around these parts some time ago... Just left though.

Quote from: Dostoevsky on June 03, 2020, 02:50:30 pm

-snip-

Yeah that math is about right. I calculated the size and population based off of real life cities present and past, but kept adding 0's and multiplying factors afterwards to make it a more unreasonable quantity of people. Easy nutrition, healing, people who don't die of old age and construction methods do help create literal oceans of bodies.
Mainly for megacrowd aesthetics; I like the idea of players walking through corridors lit by illusionary lights advertising 2 for 1 mangoes and sauteed dire rat, trying to find their way through millennia of unregulated housing construction and actual currents of people. Once you reach a certain population density crowds stop to move like a gas (people moving of their own individual volition) and start to move like a liquid (go with the flow or else you'll create pressure).
When people ran out of horizontal building space, they just started building houses on top of houses. The Oldtown Residential Towers are just the oldest surviving house stacks before the government decided to regulate the maximum height of buildings. Heavily inspired by the short story bilennium, where property space is such a scarce resource that people are limited to a 38sq ft room (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billennium_(short_story)). Ideally, the players will associate the city with a continual erosion of their agency, and will strive to rise above it (literally, flying carpets and brooms with style) or gtfo (they will never look at open spaces the same way ever again)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dostoevsky on June 03, 2020, 03:26:04 pm

Hah, I'm guessing you took some inspiration from Kowloon Walled City then. Boy howdy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on June 03, 2020, 03:37:10 pm

My interest is very much piqued. How does life on the roofs/top of the buildings differ from the situation at the bottom of the stack?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 03:43:08 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 03:18:36 pm

Additionally, no one knows how many people live in the Black Lotus Inn. People who check into the Inn rarely leave, and the Inn appears to never have issues accommodating an ever-increasing roster of guests - despite being a fairly small building to outside observers, the Black Lotus Inn likely contains a few billion people.

The Census Office of this city surely began fielding its own armies thousands of years ago, but this place is surely for the Census Black Ops or the elderly Census-Archmages suiting up for One Last Ride.

You might find this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k07cDMepfU) OSR supplement interesting and relevant, it details magical innovations causing the end of the world, one of which is this kind of space expansion scenario. At the highest stages, what was formerly a city becomes an impossible labyrinth of hallways, warehouses, and backrooms magically expanded beyond any reason or control which soon enough draws in the entire population.

Quote

One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.

I Can't Believe It's Not Posadism

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Imic on June 03, 2020, 03:46:56 pm

What is the ‘Acident’?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 03, 2020, 04:00:10 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 03:18:36 pm

Currently one of my players is undecided. One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.

It's hard when all you want is to be a lonely hermit in your meagre hovel in own little isolated corner of the world when population density is such that everywhere you go the every single isolated corner has to house at least a hundred people

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 04:59:23 pm

Quote from: Dostoevsky on June 03, 2020, 03:26:04 pm

Hah, I'm guessing you took some inspiration from Kowloon Walled City then. Boy howdy.

yeaaa boiiiii
Oldtown district is kowloon x 1.75, so you get just a lil' bit more walled city for your buck. Though the money here isn't bucks, but sin. (Literally just paper money named after the first Emperor, Sin Farme, but it allows for lots of puns of children inheriting the sin of their forefathers, or the wages of sin).

Quote from: NJW2000 on June 03, 2020, 03:37:10 pm

My interest is very much piqued. How does life on the roofs/top of the buildings differ from the situation at the bottom of the stack?

People who live in the Worldheart City get to enjoy a city that was actually made with central planning in mind, as such it's very spacious per person, even for the menial servants. Lots of verticality, as the Worldheart City is actually a gargantuan Fortress that was converted to house the Middle Kingdom's subjects, way back when the outer walls didn't exist and the metropolitan area was still a series of villages.

Wall people live in the walls, towers and garrisons, and are almost entirely military families / descendants of military families. The walls are the most sparsely populated areas of the city. Each wall is semi-sentient and craves company; if the Wall Priests don't give the walls sufficient company, they occasionally forms comfortable rooms and passageways in the hopes of luring families into moving in. As such there are also many wall people who are not aware they are living in the wall until a patrol discovers them and orders the wall to patch up the breach, whilst there are wall people who live inside the walls dutifully worshiping the walls as benevolent protectors.

For the rest of the metropolitan area, life can be split between five zones

Roof People - surface dwellers who live on the top layer of the cityscape. The people grow flowers to attract colourful insects and fairies, grow fruit trees and fields of other luxurious foods. The housetops are linked by makeshift rope bridges, wooden planks and pulleys for transporting people and cargo. Roof runners are frequently seen, some jumping from house to house, others riding on exotic mounts like giant spiders or geckos, urgently carrying messages or food deliveries. Roof people are the primary cause of vertical sprawl; as they've grown accustomed to the surface world, any time their neighbours build up, they too build up. Thus the roof people are in a perpetual arms race to stay roof people. In order to keep the arms race slow, Roof people associations try to broker truces and armistices between neighbourhoods.

The Twilight People - people who are not close enough to the surface to feel the kiss of a cool breeze, but still close enough to the surface to see sunlight shining on through. The twilight zone forms the most productive and populated zone of the cityscape, where the overwhelming majority of all industry and living takes place. Here the school children climb through windows to reach their schools, here vines of melons, hops, tomatoes, berries of all kinds and grapes can be found overtaking railings and walls - with the occasional druid's operation growing a little out of hand until local street urchins find some way to hawk it off piece by piece. This place always carries the delicious smell of cooking in the morning, evening and afternoon, with the waft of wondrous broths and hot drinks carrying far and wide down the valleys of houses in all neighbourhoods rich and poor. When sun falls and moon rises, the Twilight Zone lights up with billions of illusionary lights, casting gentle glows in many shades throughout the many restaurants (delicious), threatre houses (dens of villainy and prostitution) and pubs (decidedly variable environments). The Twilight Zone is large enough that it appears to have its own internal weather system; for legal reasons lawyers of the Middle Kingdom argue that the Twilight Zone simply displays trickle down weather, and does not in fact constitute unregulated weather.

The Street Level - the markets, the pell-mell uproar of madness, the millions of multitudes from all walks of life trying to find their way through the streets large and small. Soothsayers publish almanacs dictating predicted rush hours and ebb hours, landmarks and street updates, the only hope for foreigners to navigate the city in good speed. On the streets anything may be found. Anything may be lost. The street level is not a place where many people live; street level living space is at an incredibly high premium, and the streets themselves are prime stampede ground. As such there are very few genuine "street people." Nets and gratings above protect pedestrians from falling objects above, but also remove much of what little natural light could filter down. Instead all light comes from advertising illusions, or whatever light people bring with them.
Drying laundry drips onto a frying oil pan, leaving a sizzle as a man stirs his legendary spicy ocean noodles. An incredibly burly bald Dwarf with a big bushy beard is wondering if you'll be stupid enough to make eye contact with him. An incredibly beautiful human is asking if you want to have a good time; you wonder if that's a poisoned dagger in their pants of if they're happy to see you. Judging from how quickly they run away, it was a poison dagger. Guard patrols walk by in formation, their Serjeant shouting for the crowds to make way for the King's Castle Guard. There is not enough room for people to make way, so they pile upon one another, desperate to get away from the guards with their sharp pikes and nail-capped boots. A few street people become adept at navigating the streets; these street rangers often end up employed by firefighters, detectives or clerics to help them hastily respond to emergencies.

The Abyss People are those who live below the street level. Those who live in the abyss have learned to live without light, or else already have darkvision or blindsense. The Office of Imperial Statistics is too scared to venture into the Abyss to conduct regular censuses here, nevertheless from observation at street level, it is clear the Abyss remains an important source of manufactured goods and alcohol. Critics blame this upon the habit of the powerful Dwarven criminal syndicate "the Plows of Victory", which has been known to form Fortresses within the Abyss zone. The Dwarves are not the only inhabitants; Trinity Elf Mafia engage in black market trade of organs, spell components and slaves. The Wayward Cloud bards are still at large, holding massive illegal concerts that echo throughout the city. The Second Circle Goblins wage war with the Plows of Victory for influence, whilst the Kobold gang Ifreetis periodically raids the markets of the street for loot. Here too are found the hidden entrances to the three main martial art schools of the Middle Kingdom. The House of Flying Daggers, who specialise in throwing daggers, and believe in fighting powerful oppressors and protecting the powerless. The House of Running Scissors, who specialise in reckless, fast strikes with dual-wielded weapons, and believe in freedom at all costs. Lastly, the House of Just Lifting, who specialise in physical training to achieve peak physical performance, in order to bring justice throughout the city.

Below even the Abyss people, are the sewers. The sewers do not have many permanent humanoid populations; most of the sewer populations are nomadic, moving between the sewers to reach different layers of the abyss or street. The sewers are an inherently hazardous place - there's lots of running water, potentially dangerous damp air, disease and blockages can cause tunnels to fill completely with sewage, flooding any homes built in the deep dark. The primary reason few dare to make a permanent home of the sewer however, is that there is a significant ooze population roaming throughout the sewers. The oozes greatly aid in the clearing of waste and blockages, purifying a lot of the water before it makes its way into the Pylo river. The oozes nevertheless pose a significant mortal risk to anyone walking through the sewers alone. Even the elite Sewer Commandos, sent in to clear exceptionally large blockages, will refuse to go into the sewers in groups smaller than 8. Whilst oozes will naturally clear blockages in the sewers, the Sewer Commandos prefer to destroy blockages manually, as blockages can artificially inflate the population of sewer oozes. This is trauma-based obligation as in the year 2463, one historic ooze known as "The Fatberg" grew so large feeding on a blockage, it began to spill forth into the Abyss, claiming many lives before being driven back underground. The Fatberg hasn't been seen since, but everyone still fears.

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 03:43:08 pm

The Census Office of this city surely began fielding its own armies thousands of years ago, but this place is surely for the Census Black Ops or the elderly Census-Archmages suiting up for One Last Ride.

Please report to the Not Secret Police Tourism Office for your tourism brochure. You appear to be very well-informed of state secrets, and the state would like to reward you with a holiday package at the Black Lotus Inn

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 03:43:08 pm

You might find this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k07cDMepfU) OSR supplement interesting and relevant, it details magical innovations causing the end of the world, one of which is this kind of space expansion scenario. At the highest stages, what was formerly a city becomes an impossible labyrinth of hallways, warehouses, and backrooms magically expanded beyond any reason or control which soon enough draws in the entire population.

That's pretty good, I love the bits about encouraging a slower pace and non-combat spell interactions. In my campaign I made it so there are lots of state holidays, weekends off, long rests are a week and short rests are 8 hours - so combat is few and far between, interactions are far more common, and when fights do happen they are very spicy.

I'm also tempted to recycle the Black Lotus Inn as its own setting. A hotel that detached from its own Universe to become a new Universe. Their idea of a pre-apocalyptic society is so up my alley you can find it in the city

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 03:43:08 pm

Quote

One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.

I Can't Believe It's Not Posadism

If he makes his character a druid called Malthus and breaks the weather control system I am giving him a free feat

*EDIT

Quote from: scriver on June 03, 2020, 04:00:10 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 03:18:36 pm

Currently one of my players is undecided. One is considering making an anarchist druid who resents central control of nature.

It's hard when all you want is to be a lonely hermit in your meagre hovel in own little isolated corner of the world when population density is such that everywhere you go the every single isolated corner has to house at least a hundred people

There's a heartbreaking moment in Bilennium where a dude discovers a whole, unused room. One where he can stretch his arms out and not touch a single wall. He invites one of his friends to share the room, then their friend brings a friend, then they bring their old parents, and they start setting up privacy walls...

Quote from: Imic on June 03, 2020, 03:46:56 pm

What is the ‘Acident’?

A long time ago there was a potion seller, who made potions. His potions were too strong for anyone to drink, his potions would kill a dragon let alone a man. In fact, his potions were so strong, people wondered who he made his potions for, or if indeed he ever sold any potions. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIQVbxMJWgM) The potion seller never stopped creating stronger and stronger potions, until one day his workshop and everything around it for miles around disappeared, leaving behind only a gargantuan potion spill. All of the scholar-spellcasters and alchemists of the Kingdom have been stumped trying to remove the potion spill, but so far have only succeed in containing it. As the potion spill is only harmful if someone comes into contact with the potion spill, the bureaucrats decided to just build a wall around the accident until a permanent solution was discovered

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 05:56:11 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 04:59:23 pm

Please report to the Not Secret Police Tourism Office for your tourism brochure. You appear to be very well-informed of state secrets, and the state would like to reward you with a holiday package at the Black Lotus Inn

If that one upset you, I can't imagine how angry you'll be when you find out I know there's an entire renegade branch of the census office contained within the Black Lotus Inn, slowly becoming numerically ascendant in it's Nth-dimensional walls and plotting a Final Count of our limited directions and times.

Quote

I'm also tempted to recycle the Black Lotus Inn as its own setting. A hotel that detached from its own Universe to become a new Universe. Their idea of a pre-apocalyptic society is so up my alley you can find it in the city

This would be a good backup if the party fucks up the game world beyond recovery. Even after the city has collapsed to the bedrock upon 100,000 concurrent disasters...there stands the Black Lotus Inn, as if it were always meant to be. Those doors could lead anywhere...

Quote

If he makes his character a druid called Malthus and breaks the weather control system I am giving him a free feat

Summon Terrible Weather 1/day

Quote

A long time ago there was a potion seller, who made potions. His potions were too strong for anyone to drink, his potions would kill a dragon let alone a man. In fact, his potions were so strong, people wondered who he made his potions for, or if indeed he ever sold any potions. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIQVbxMJWgM) The potion seller never stopped creating stronger and stronger potions, until one day his workshop and everything around it for miles around disappeared, leaving behind only a gargantuan potion spill. All of the scholar-spellcasters and alchemists of the Kingdom have been stumped trying to remove the potion spill, but so far have only succeed in containing it. As the potion spill is only harmful if someone comes into contact with the potion spill, the bureaucrats decided to just build a wall around the accident until a permanent solution was discovered

Kill a dragon, eh? I wonder...what a drop of that potion...might do for our dear Emperor?

That aside, spell WMDs are overdone but potion WMDs, now there's an idea with potential.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Imic on June 03, 2020, 06:17:38 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 05:56:11 pm

Quote

I'm also tempted to recycle the Black Lotus Inn as its own setting. A hotel that detached from its own Universe to become a new Universe. Their idea of a pre-apocalyptic society is so up my alley you can find it in the city

This would be a good backup if the party fucks up the game world beyond recovery. Even after the city has collapsed to the bedrock upon 100,000 concurrent disasters...there stands the Black Lotus Inn, as if it were always meant to be. Those doors could lead anywhere...

It should be noted that there’s actually a location a bit like that in established D&D lore, the World Serpent Inn. (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/World_Serpent.pdf) Not perfectly what you’re talking about, of course, it’s more like a mini-Universe between other Universes, the doors of which occasionally show up and let you head to somewhere else outside your dimension/plane/universe/crystal sphere.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2020, 07:03:08 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 05:56:11 pm

If that one upset you, I can't imagine how angry you'll be when you find out I know there's an entire renegade branch of the census office contained within the Black Lotus Inn, slowly becoming numerically ascendant in it's Nth-dimensional walls and plotting a Final Count of our limited directions and times.

M8 you're gonna get turned into a statistic by statistic ninjas at this rate. That is knowledge only an arch-statistician could know, should know, or needs to know

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 05:56:11 pm

This would be a good backup if the party fucks up the game world beyond recovery. Even after the city has collapsed to the bedrock upon 100,000 concurrent disasters...there stands the Black Lotus Inn, as if it were always meant to be. Those doors could lead anywhere...

You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 05:56:11 pm

Kill a dragon, eh? I wonder...what a drop of that potion...might do for our dear Emperor?

I'm thinking it'll be a wild magic table on steroids, with a very high chance of taking out dear leader with vigour

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2020, 05:56:11 pm

That aside, spell WMDs are overdone but potion WMDs, now there's an idea with potential.

Plus it's not a megacity without an industrial accident. Potion spillls have been known to have long term environmental effects that the big potion lobby doesn't want you to know about. Many a fisherman was beaten to death in a barfight by a seaabass after a coastline was polluted with potions of strength

Quote from: Imic on June 03, 2020, 06:17:38 pm

It should be noted that there’s actually a location a bit like that in established D&D lore, the World Serpent Inn. (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/World_Serpent.pdf) Not perfectly what you’re talking about, of course, it’s more like a mini-Universe between other Universes, the doors of which occasionally show up and let you head to somewhere else outside your dimension/plane/universe/crystal sphere.

They're almost the same, could be the same institution just gone through some localisation branding ;P
I based my Black Lotus Inn on the Island of the Lotus Eaters from the Oddyssey, that one time Xenophon was worried he wouldn't want to go home after hunkering down in a picturesque town by the Euphrates, Hotel California and London opium dens. I'm a real sucker for mythological places that are threatening because they're just so *comfy* that the heroes forget their purpose for just a night, and after a night of enjoyment it's like 60 years have passed. They're wearing a hawaii shirt sipping a moscow mule whilst all of the Empire is dead because someone stuck the weather machine on apocalypse. I suppose the main difference between the BLI and the WS is that the WS wants you to go to another plane when you're ready, the BLI is really happy to have you stay, they insist on your comfort

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 09, 2020, 01:54:48 am

Coming up with some new monster concepts... How about a psionic brain-eater with a permanent silence effect on it? I'm thinking of calling it the Mime Flayer.


And for 18+ adventures, we have the terrifying Gelatinous Pube and the KY jelly

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 09, 2020, 03:47:19 am

Quote from: Kagus on June 09, 2020, 01:54:48 am

Coming up with some new monster concepts... How about a psionic brain-eater with a permanent silence effect on it? I'm thinking of calling it the Mime Flayer.

Ok, but only if it traps it's prey behind an invisible psionic wall

Imagine it. You're walking along the dark city street, laughing and cayoling with your friends. First, nothing. Then you realised every noice suddenly went silent. You call to your friends, but they haven't noticed anything, and doesn't hear you. You try to catch up with them, but you walk into a glass wall that wasn't there just the second before, separating you from them. You feel it out, there's no way around it, it surrounds you. You slam your hands against it in vain. You scream for help, but nobody hears you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 09, 2020, 07:26:24 am

And then you get slowly pulled into the darkness by an invisible rope while silently screaming your voice out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: KingofstarrySkies on June 11, 2020, 07:50:42 am

I've been playing a game set in Waterdeep, though I believe we've harshly gone off the path of the original Dragon Heist plot. It's been great- I've been playing in it since September with some of my best friends online as a fallen aasimar fiend-warlock, and having a blast. Party comp is me, Masli of Neverwinter, the disaster bastard woman with genuinely fucking insanely good stats (she is only held back by her immensely poor life choices), Chasity Sweetkiss or 'Chase' the ex-pirate Tiefling sea-sorc, Imlas the drow fighter (he has a devil-infused sword that ate a deck of many things,) Pyrion of Salt and Snow (an eladrin who cannot convince his party that eladrin exist,)(and no, I CANNOT remember what class Pyrion is) Thurirl the lizardwoman druid who has literally no response beyond fight or flight, and Lythis Estelmurr the adopted Yuan-ti nobleman Paladin of the Crown.

I'm fiendlock, as mentioned, with Glasya as my patron. Been a real nice time, playing Waterdeep- it's kept me sane and is something to look forward to every saturday.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on June 11, 2020, 08:02:27 am

I think going completely off the rails is pretty much inevitable on Dragon Heist unless you've got an inside man who's read the adventure or the DM is very good at emergency improv, there's some seriously rickety structure in there.  You're having fun and that's all that matters, but I really hate that adventure.

Gonna set my next D&D game on a Niven-style ringworld, but not tell the players that.  So all the mythology and cosmology is based around explaining features of ringworlds for someone who doesn't know he's on one.  The world is a giant cradle, a flat disk with an arch overtop, and the sun hangs from the tip of the arch.  Thinking a Ra/Apep kind of dynamic, the sun is the chief god and his adversary is the night blocks (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Ringworld_.jpg/220px-Ringworld_.jpg), anthropomorphized as a serpent god that wants to eat him, with the priests doing banishment rituals to disempower it each night.  Other gods are vague ancestral memories of the creators of the ringworld.  Magic is just magic, sci-fi can have little a magic, as a treat.

Having demons be a motley pirate faction of aliens that have taken residence might be too silly, but I'm considering that too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 11, 2020, 08:16:05 am

Very cool. Love the night block bit especially

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 11, 2020, 08:16:14 am

Interplanar travel is just traveling to another ring rotating around the sun

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on June 11, 2020, 08:21:16 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 11, 2020, 08:16:14 am

Interplanar travel is just traveling to another ring rotating around the sun

There's just one ring, but being a proper 1 AU radius ring it's so big that even going 10% of its distance in one direction may as well be traveling to another planet, so there's probably things to do there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 11, 2020, 08:49:56 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on June 11, 2020, 08:02:27 am

Magic is just magic, sci-fi can have little a magic, as a treat.

Magic is the only way to build a ring world regardless ;)

But yes I like it too. There should be frost demons living on the outside of the ring where everything is always cold and dark

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 13, 2020, 12:41:09 pm

I've been changing the flavour of an orc horde to fit my town of civilised orc banter. I would like to use them as a fun boss where the stakes are high, the challenge is high, but I don't have to worry about a TPK nor victory/defeat being without satisfying consequence.

Code: [Select]

Cultured horde of Orcs - the Shaking Spears Theatre Company

Armour Class - 12 (grandiose costumes, medium armour), Damage Reduction -1

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
 22  12  16   7  11  10
 +6  +1  +3  -2  +0  +0

Skills:
Performance +6
Intimidation +6
Athletics +6
Proficient in the use of military drums, horns, pipes, strings, makeup and costuming (+2 to disguise checks made with costumes or disguise kit)
Condition Immunities: charmed, frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, prone, restrained, stunned
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10
Languages Common Draconic, Orcish dialect
Challenge 7 (2900 XP)
Horde. The horde can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and the horde can move through any opening large enough for a Medium orc. Additionally, the horde is immune to any spell or effect that would alter its form.

Enthusiastic solicitation. As a bonus action, the horde can move up to its speed toward a potential audience member that it can see.

Audience interaction. The horde can take one reaction on every turn in combat a show.

Take centre stage. When the horde moves through the space of a Large or smaller creature, the horde can force the creature to make a DC 17 Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is knocked prone.

Don't be shy. The cultured horde of orcs may grapple up to 6 medium sized creatures at full health, and up to 3 medium sized creatures at half health.

Actions Multiattack: The horde makes four attacks, or two attacks if the horde has half its hit points or fewer. The horde may use any selection of these attacks, but no more than one kind of attack per round:

Spoiler: attacks (click to show/hide)

Meat vendor. Orc vendors aggressively sell massive hunks of meat to audience members. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 6) bludgeoning damage, costs 10 cents per meat stack. Very good value.
Drink seller. Orc mobile publord aggressively sells massive flagons of orcish ale to audience members. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 6) poison damage. Audience member must make a DC 15 CON save, or else gain 1 level of exhaustion. Costs 3 cents a pitcherflagon, a tremendously good deal, if you can account for the unqualifying potent flavour. Enthusiasts say that Orcish ale is an acquired taste; fizzy, sour, with a hoppy body of flavour laced with notes of oak, vanilla, blueberries and fish oil.

Discordant symphony. Audience members must make a DC 15 CHA save or become frightened. Audience members may retake the CHA save every turn, and once passed are immune to the frightening effects of discordant music for 24 hours.
Shake spearing performance. The orc horde makes a performance check versus all audience members of its choosing within visible range; audience members must each make a CHA roll. If the CHA roll is equal to or higher than the performance roll, then the audience member(s) are unaffected by the moving tragedy and unlaughing of the brilliant comedy. On a failure, the audience members are charmed for five minutes. Once per turn, an audience member may attempt a DC 12 WIS save to break the charming euphoria they feel, as the play was full of nitpicks.

Provocative dancing. Orc courtiers and courtesans aggressively dance with an audience member in a skillful and terrifying forceful orc tango. Grapple Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: target is grappled, contested by their athletics or acrobatics check, and move wherever the Orc horde takes them. Each turn they may attempt to make a successful athletics or acrobatics check versus the Orc horde's athletics check to break free / escape. Audience member is now an audience participant.
Sway with me. Attack only usable on an audience participant grappled by the horde. On the end of the grappled audience participant's turn, make a DC 15 performance check. On a failed save, the audience participant takes 1d3 bludgeoning damage and is moved 15ft in a direction of the horde's choosing, and is still grappled.
Graceful lift. Attack only usable on an audience participant grappled by the horde. A powerful dancer lifts up the audience member with stunning grace, holding them gracefully aloft. Audience member must make a DC 15 acrobatics check; on a success, their dancing partner safely catches them, otherwise they take 1d3 bludgeoning damage and are knocked prone, and still grappled.
Forceful arrabesque. Attack only usable on an audience participant grappled by the horde. The Orcish horde helps an audience participant to perform a perfect arabesque. Make either a DC 15 STR save or DC 15 DEX save (player's chocie); on a failure, the effort of doing the splits and standing on point causes 1d6 bludgeoning damage and reduces the dancer's speed to 5 until they receive at least 1 point of healing. Audience participant is still grappled after their arabesque.
Vigorous pirouette. Attack only usable on an audience member grappled by the horde. The orc performers vigorously spin the audience participant in a brilliant pirouette, make a DC 15 CON save or be blinded for one round and take 1d10 psychic damage, or half damage on a successful save. Audience participant is still grappled after their pirouette.

Powerful rebuke The horde responds to criticism making four attacks (with a greataxe), +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 48 (4d12 + 6) slashing damage.

Moshpit. Each creature of the horde's choice in the horde's space must make a DC 17 Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 52 (8d12) bludgeoning damage, or 26 (4d12) bludgeoning damage if the horde has half its hit points or fewer. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage.

Powerful poetry. The horde performs directed poetry at a point within 60 feet of it. Each creature of the horde's choice in a 10-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a DC 17 CHA saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 28 (8d6) psychic damage, or 14 (4d6) psychic damage if the horde has half its hit points or fewer. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. It's really emotional.

A night to remember. If the horde has grappled someone and manages to escape a chase with them, roll on the carousing table to find out how their partying went.

A night you can't remember. If anyone is reduced to 5 (or 6) exhaustion or 0 HP or lower by the Orc horde, and they are unable to be recovered by their compatriots, they are not killed. Instead, set their HP to 1 / exhaustion to 5 and roll a 1d100 on the carousing table to find out what happened after the battle.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1 = roll two more times on the table, combining both results
2 = you wake up in a high security prison cell, manacled to a wall and gagged in solitary confinement. [for DM - it is for a crime they technically did commit, like "plotting to destroy critical state infrastructure (e.g. drunkenly driving a cart into a very important bridge)" or what was perceived to be an attempted assassination of a high ranking official (accidentally decking a prince)]
3 = you wake up in an asylum, wearing a straitjacket and muzzle. [for DM - it is for committing a taboo they did commit, ideally a description of their murderhoboing ways, but if the player isn't a murderhobo then choose a local taboo, like tree burning or drinking milk].
4 = you wake up chained to an altar, with an embarrassed cultist trying to sacrifice you. When they notice you're awake, they apologise for the delay, stating this is their first time performing this ritual. Their supervisor is nodding in disapproval.
5 = you wake up in bed being spooned by a sleeping werewolf. The full moon is still visibly up through the window.
6 = you wake up inside a statue formed in your likeness. The statue has been placed inside the abode of an undead noble (vampire).
7 = you wake up inside a dragon's lair. You are wearing a generous quantity of what the dragon considers its most valuable possessions (they need not be materially valuable, they could be items of great sentimental value to the dragon).
8 = you wake up in a hammock aboard a passenger ship, belly of a transport beast or carriage. It has already embarked on its journey!
9 = you wake up in a low security jail cell with a harmless looking gnome guard sleeping on a chair outside, and a particularly angry looking dwarf rogue called Urist sharpening a piece of soap into a shank. You are being held on account of menacing the public with your drunken disorder, but will be freed after 1d7 days.
10 = you wake up in a mental health hospital on a comfy recliner chair. Opposite you is a stern looking elf with a notepad, asking you to continue discussing your childhood problems with your mother. While you are not restrained, they have all of your equipment and insist on your therapy before your discharge in 1d7 days.
11 = you wake up in the large bed of Sir Mannington the bear, a particularly large and hairy man pretending to be a brown bear. Absolutely no one but you believes Sir Mannington is not a bear. [for DM, roll a 1d6. On a 1-2 = Sir Mannington is angry you broke his chair, ate his porridge and slept in his bed. On a 3-4 = Sir Mannington hasn't noticed you are there. On a 5-6 Sir Mannington is deeply in love with the character, because they see them for how they are e.t.c.].
12 = you wake up betrothed to an Orcish lady called Ogo the Juggernaut, who was convinced yesterday that you were a handsome bachelor.
13 = you wake up betrothed to an Orcish gentleman called Ostodu the Arrowarm, who was convinced yesterday that you were a beautiful lady.
14 = you wake up in the bed of one of your enemies. [roll 1d6, 1 enemy is shocked to see them, 2, enemy is embarrassed to see them, 3 enemy is glad to see them, 4 enemy is unaware of who they are, 5 enemy is frightened and tries to make them leave, 6 enemy is hostile and attacks them with a potted plant]
15 = you wake up in the bed of one of your friends. [roll 1d6, 1 friend is shocked to see them, 2, friend is embarrassed to see them, 3 friend is glad to see them, 4 friend is unaware of who they are, 5 friend is frightened and tries to make them leave, 6 friend is hostile and attacks them with a broom]
16 = you wake up in bed with a woman wearing a paper bag on her head. Roll a 1d6, on a 1-2 she's a medusa, on a 3-4 she's a sea hag, on a 5-6 she's a normal humanoid who's just got a cleft lip and low self-esteem
17 = you wake up in bed with a succubus/incubus, who immediately attempts to charm you
18 = you wake up in a pile of your drinking buddies, who all consider you an absolute drinking legend. They will spread rumours of your terrible exploits unless you convince them not to
19 = you wake up in a pile of straw, [roll 1d6, 1-2 with a farm girl, 3-4 with a stable boy, 5-6 with a bunch of animals and crap]
20 = you wake up in a bed alone, however when you go downstairs there is a large family who all appear to know you on a first and last name basis, who don't seem surprised by your presence at all. They are offering you breakfast, the children call you uncle, the grandparents call you junior. The single parent there calls you by your first name.
21 = you wake up in an immaculate and ostentatious ballroom dress with your hair done up and makeup applied skillfully to your face, all of which looks like it belongs in another time. A ghostly cyclops wipes away a single large tear, saying you look beautiful.
22 = you wake up in bed with someone who looks identical to you in every way. They are just as surprised as you are by this fact.
23 = you wake up in bed wearing full plate armour. When you remove the armour, it assembles into a suit of animated armour and if you have proficiency in heavy armour, compliments you on your... Martial Prowess, before walking off. Otherwise it insults your lack of proficiency and storms away, saying it will find a real warrior capable of handling armour as bodacious as it.
24 = you wake up in bed wearing nothing but skimpy rags. Your clothes are in a pile by the corner, where you find you are mysteriously 5d10 gold richer, with a written letter of commendation from a risque dancing troupe.
25 = you wake up in a barracks bed wearing a military uniform belonging to a local recruitment billet. Roll a DC 10 WIS save to see if you gave the military recruiters your real name or not. If you are already a part of an army, then you signed up with a rival service branch / enemy army.
26 = you wake up drooling over a pulpit, dressed in a long, damasc robe. Before you are enough pews to seat 300 people. Before you can react, people start walking into the temple and you are expected to conduct the religious service.
27 = you wake up with a room full of thugs smiling at you, welcoming you to their gang. They are astounded at your exploits - you stole the baron's golden toilet, which you are now sitting on.
28 = you wake up in a dark cave surrounded by at least 500 kobolds. You are wearing a totem skull and all the kobolds are hailing you as the great sing sing chief.
29 = you wake up surrounded by d10 prostitutes, 1d20 gold poorer. Roll a DC15 CON check to see if you caught an embarassing pox.
30 = you wake up surrounded by d10 courtesans/courtiers, 1d200 gold poorer.
31 = there is a note in your belongings inviting you to come back to the Black Lotus Inn, alongside a leering red lacquered mask.
32 = a demigod appears before you, demanding that you never talk to her or her son ever again, before disappearing in a cloud of acrid smoke.
33 = you wake up in a field of vegetables surrounded by d50 prostitutes and 1d100 gold poorer. When asked, the prostitutes explain you paid them to plow the fields and sow them with your seeds. You are now the owner of a very small farm.
34 = you wake up in the saddle on the back of an exotic mount. You are the new owner of this exotic mount, and are accordingly poorer relative to the worth of the mount.
35 = you wake up with a deed showing how you are the proud owner of a cursed mansion. Checking your coin purse, the mansion cost you 1gp.
36 = you wake up slowly, resting your head on a fountain where the water is cool and the rising sun gently warms you. You are also completely naked, and a bunch of artists are asking you to stay still whilst they finish their life paintings.
37 = you wake up in very formal-looking dress in a comfortable but unfamiliar bed. A nun walks in and asks if you're ready to take all fifteen of the children you adopted from the orphanage.
38 = you wake up in a desolate ice-cream shop. The ice-cream vendor is incredibly helpful and offers you a wide variety of ice-creams and will insist on you staying for as long as you need, because they are really desperate for any company.
39 = the player wakes up, staring face to face with a gargantuan arachnid. The arachnic lectures them on the importance of friendship, consistency and nutrition, before flying away. You are not sure if this was a hallucination.
40 = you wake up in the aftermath of a riot. The number of buildings which have burnt down is equal to d3 + your religion modifier + your persuasion modifier.
41 = you are currently residing in what appears to be a magnificent imperial suite in a luxurious hotel. You have completely destroyed the bedroom carpet by hacking and painting a large nine pointed star into the ground in various fluids of noxious smell. In the middle of the star is an incredibly thin devil called Mowgwai holding a sandwich. Because you gave him a sandwich, Mowgwai offers you a free, small favour or gift, and a business card should you ever need to contact him again. Burning the business card summons the devil.
42 = you wake up in a funeral procession. It has been two days since you started drinking, and your open coffin is being carried through the street by your distraught drinking buddies, all dressed in black.
43 = you have an invoice for a powerful weapon/armour/scroll/ammunition commission. The invoice states where and when to collect your commission, and how expensive it will be.
44 = "Hey you, you're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right?" a man asks you, as you are sitting in a cart riding to a destination unknown.
45 = You are unconscious for the next 24 hours! But at least your new drinking buddy friends are making sure you stay alive.
46 = you wake up feeling awful (you are stunned for the next 24 hours). But at least you made friends with your drinking buddies!
47 = you wake up feeling nauseous (you suffer from the poisoned condition for 24 hours). But at least you made friends with your drinking buddies!
48 = you wake up feeling groggy, but unharmed. You made friends with your drinking buddies!
49 = you wake up feeling pretty refreshed (restore all lost HP, exhaustion, reset spell slots and used abilities). There is an empty potion nearby.
50 =  you wake up with a tattoo of one ritual spell tattooed on your left butt cheek. The arse tattoo wielder can ritual cast that ritual spell, provided they have all the components needed and can read the tattoo. The player may choose which ritual spell it is.

I'm all out of other carousing ideas / others to steal, but I'm happy with the 50 I've got.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 13, 2020, 01:51:25 pm

LW, you're a genius.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 13, 2020, 03:41:37 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on June 13, 2020, 01:51:25 pm

LW, you're a genius.

Perhaps not, I completely forgot to add their HP

HP 189 (14d20)+42
Around about every 15 HP is 1 orc, so this horde is 12 orcs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 13, 2020, 11:47:07 pm

sounds hot

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 14, 2020, 03:59:43 am

If you didn't already have so many (excellent) Shakespear puns I would insist on making the Quivering Spear the deity of theatre/poetry/banter

Although 12 orcs sin't much of a horde

More of a mob

or a poetry slam

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 14, 2020, 05:09:13 am

I think there's room to replace some attacks with play puns -

The Tempest (area of effect swirling attack)
The Restraining of the Shrew
Midsummer Fight's Dream
Measure for Measure (reaction damage return)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 14, 2020, 05:19:17 am

DO NOT MENTION THE PLAY - Unless the audience member succeeds on a DC 12 wisdom saving throw they blurt out "Do you mean Macbeth?" and are cursed with disadvantage on all attack rolls for 1d4 turns.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 14, 2020, 05:37:56 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 13, 2020, 12:41:09 pm

44 = "Hey you, you're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right?" a man asks you, as you are sitting in a cart riding to a destination unknown.

Damn it, now I got the urge to go Skyrim.

Absolutely amazing list. Beyond quality. Full marks to you for such a creative set of drunken hijinks outcomes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 14, 2020, 07:58:04 am

Quote from: Jimmy on June 14, 2020, 05:37:56 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 13, 2020, 12:41:09 pm

44 = "Hey you, you're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right?" a man asks you, as you are sitting in a cart riding to a destination unknown.

Damn it, now I got the urge to go Skyrim.

"Wake up, we're here. Why are you shaking? Are you ok? Wake up. Stand up... there you go. You were dreaming. What's your name?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 14, 2020, 08:45:52 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on June 14, 2020, 07:58:04 am

Quote from: Jimmy on June 14, 2020, 05:37:56 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 13, 2020, 12:41:09 pm

44 = "Hey you, you're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right?" a man asks you, as you are sitting in a cart riding to a destination unknown.

Damn it, now I got the urge to go Skyrim.

"Wake up, we're here. Why are you shaking? Are you ok? Wake up. Stand up... there you go. You were dreaming. What's your name?"

YES! EXACTLY! Thats still what I hear when people quote the beginning of Skyrim.

You don't have to fight me over it; though. There are a few ways we could do this and the choice is yours.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 14, 2020, 09:21:41 am

Ahhh yes. We've been expecting you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 14, 2020, 01:38:28 pm

Quote from: delphonso on June 14, 2020, 09:21:41 am

Ahhh yes. We've been expecting you.

Shame on you sweet nerevar - teleportation or plane shifting of any kind no longer works in a 60ft radius. No recall or intervention can work in this place, there is no escape!

Quote from: Sentient Bowtie on June 13, 2020, 11:47:07 pm

sounds hot

what happens in Orcbants stays in Orcbants. So if you leave Orcbants, it is tattooed in infamy forever

Quote from: scriver on June 14, 2020, 03:59:43 am

Although 12 orcs sin't much of a horde

More of a mob

or a poetry slam

Poetry slam is a great name for an attack. Also I don't think low level players can handle a true horde of orcs, so a flash mob of orcs will do.

Granted, now I have the perfect idea for introducing the combat. The players enter a marketplace full of orcs. Once they start perusing the goods, one Orc begins dancing, then another, then another, until the whole flash mob is dancing in unison. Roll for initiative.

Quote from: scriver on June 14, 2020, 03:59:43 am

If you didn't already have so many (excellent) Shakespear puns I would insist on making the Quivering Spear the deity of theatre/poetry/banter

Quote from: delphonso on June 14, 2020, 05:09:13 am

I think there's room to replace some attacks with play puns -

The Tempest (area of effect swirling attack)
The Restraining of the Shrew
Midsummer Fight's Dream
Measure for Measure (reaction damage return)

Now is the Winter of your Discontent [cone of cold]
To see, or not to see [makes a perception check]
All the World's a play, and all the men and women are merely players [the DM attacks the players]
The Lady doth protest too much [cast silence]
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war! [next attack is a crit]
All that glistens is not gold [the next loot you get is fake, the real treasure was the friends you made along the way]
Once more unto the breach [makes a charge attack]
My Kingdom for a horse [summons a bunch of horses]
We are such stuff as dreams are made of [cast misty step]
What's mine is yours and what is yours is mine [exchange the items you are holding with an enemy's items]

Quote from: Jimmy on June 14, 2020, 05:37:56 am

Absolutely amazing list. Beyond quality. Full marks to you for such a creative set of drunken hijinks outcomes.

Much thanks, when I've got more time I'm gonna turn it into a more graphically pleasing chart

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 14, 2020, 02:44:18 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 14, 2020, 01:38:28 pm

Granted, now I have the perfect idea for introducing the combat. The players enter a marketplace full of orcs. Once they start perusing the goods, one Orc begins dancing, then another, then another, until the whole flash mob is dancing in unison. Roll for initiative.

That's it, I'm moving to London

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 14, 2020, 02:56:40 pm

Also this isn't quite DnD but I saw this and needed to share it and I don't know where else to put it: Dinosaurs of the Wild West (http://imgur.com/gallery/95AlMcS)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 15, 2020, 02:45:47 am

Also in regards to the drunken morning after, there's a Reddit thread about 100 carousing results (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3uunbt/the_bigger_badder_longer_uncut_d100_carousing/) that might be just what your players need.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 15, 2020, 03:39:17 am

Quote from: scriver on June 14, 2020, 02:44:18 pm

That's it, I'm moving to London

Not before nandos and spoons are open, otherwise it's not werf it

Oh yeah and it'll cost you two deals with the devil to afford the ridiculously overpriced cost of existing

Quote from: Jimmy on June 15, 2020, 02:45:47 am

Also in regards to the drunken morning after, there's a Reddit thread about 100 carousing results (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3uunbt/the_bigger_badder_longer_uncut_d100_carousing/) that might be just what your players need.

I nabbed a few of those for my d50 one (like the devil sandwich, I just reversed who was giving the sandwich as I don't like players being forced to make offscreen devil pacts), but on second look there are a few good ones I could probably nab still. Number 94 is a really good one. I like the idea of players receiving a note from a long lost family member or friend detailing how well they are keeping up the legacy (or not), especially since one of my players is doing a wholesome character who was inspired to follow in the footsteps of her mediocre wizard grandpa.
Number 27 is banter, changing your name to the same as a party member's name.
Number 33 actually happened to us when we created the legend of El Bandito to try and escape responsibility for blowing up a man's shop.
Number 42 drunk shopping is hilarious.
Number 47 rat cult is pretty intriguing.
Number 83 is Kazuscum. 95 is very worthy of bants, as are magical mixups like 98. I think you could come up with good random magic item fuckups. Like you're attuned to a cursed item, you reprogrammed a cleric's crystal ball to only scry on you, or you have a lvl20 wizard's spellbook

Quote from: scriver on June 14, 2020, 02:56:40 pm

Also this isn't quite DnD but I saw this and needed to share it and I don't know where else to put it: Dinosaurs of the Wild West (http://imgur.com/gallery/95AlMcS)

Fat allosaurus mayor was my favourite

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 15, 2020, 09:01:36 am

Anyone have any cool ideas for enemies which encourage out of the box thinking? I'm currently working on statting all the various guards and soldiers who I can reskin as enemies whenever needs be. So far I've got a couple of fun and nightmarish enemies, like the Orc Flash Mob.

I like the variety I've got for my humanoid soldier stat blocks. Lots of cheap conscripts with low morale, low health but great damage output if they have numbers on their side.

Then I've got lots of units with very exploitable strengths and weaknesses. Heavy Crossbowmen with tower shields and armour which become almost impossible to dislodge at range and must be engaged up close. Light archers who shoot, hide, retreat and shoot. Musketeers who let out devastating volleys but must choose between reloading or fixing bayonets (which disables shooting). Charioteers who provide fire support and can transport two enemies around the battlefield. Heavy cavalry riding flying siege beetles and light cavalry riding urban geckos or long-jumping jackalopes. Elite riflemen who have access to the sniper feat, allowing them to make players afraid of open spaces for all eternity.

Probably my favourite are just the Secret Police Officers and the Internal Security Bureau Officers, who specialize in investigation / tracking / community outreach and a nonstop barrage of grapples, restraints, shoves and paralyzing attacks. I had a DM once tell me he thought beartraps, chains, nets and manacles were OP, but honestly I believe any time you can see players use lateral thinking and forward planning you should be on that shit like flies to shit. Honestly if a player uses a mechanism to accomplish what could be done with a spell, that's not OP, that's getting shit done.

I haven't even started creating the stats for all the spellcasters who can cause havoc for the party. Off the top of my head I want a good number of elemental monks who can shape earth/air/fire/water, alongside a bunch of construction workers and construction wizards. I'm looking for the kinds of enemies who make my players think "huh, why don't we try make new doors from walls with sledgehammers."

To do list:
-Annoying light infantry who hide in swamps and blow poison darts at you before swimming away
-The Groose Boar (giant slippery boar)
-Mindflayer eunuchs who levitate into the sky any time they see the PCs coming
-Anguished ghosts who try to possess a player. If successful, they are just described as having disappeared, whilst I hand notes to the player explaining how they must pretend to be a ghost pretending to be them.
-monk who teleports through shadows and tries to back slash you with a katana
-fatberg, an ooze that has HP per square. Killing the square only reduces the ooze spread that round, and it will keep filling up a dungeon until the players escape / find the heart of the fatberg.
-literally just a wild magic warlock & sorcerer duo. Fucking love wild magic
-necrodancer. A lich whose phylactery is on a comet in the sky which periodically returns close enough for the lich to descend every 29 years. Summons undead to utterly destroy the living with their sick dance skills
-clouds of skyjellies. So far all I know is they'll be clouds of sky jellyfish. No idea on the stats yet, but they will all be wildmagic spellcasters for sure.
-seditious rainwater elemental. I'm thinking of giving it a load of ranged and melee attacks that cause charm & misty step to get close to players. In combat it tries to get school children to bunk school, workers to stay at home with their kids, and urges players to follow their hearts instead of completing quests. Players have to stop the water elemental before it convinces the entire city to stop following the man, man.
-black swan, poltergoose and ducklich. Unholy trinity of dangerous birds. Black swan will be an arm-breaking evil undead paladin swan, poltergoose will be an ethereal goose who steals items and throws chairs at players, and ducklich will raise hordes of the unbread - literally just bread golems.
-the sleepcaster. A spellcaster with infinite spell slots because they are sleepwalking
-swarm of wasps (just a swarm of normal wasps)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 15, 2020, 09:13:11 am

With less puns, but a few things I've done to make combat interesting:

-Crippled husband leads the party to help rescue his wife - is basically suicidal in combat and keeping him out of the fight becomes a goal.

-Dust mephits above a 2ft deep pool of water. Send people to sleep, send them to drown.

-Yakfolk cowards who use their Magic Jar ability to threaten killing a PC if the party doesn't load their true body onto one of the horses. Summons dao to be a real dick.

-Ghosts in a house full of locked doors. Phase through wall, take a swing, phase back.

- the polymorph spell. Just use it a lot.

Not sure if those will help with outside the box thinking, but led to some extremely fun encounters for my players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on June 15, 2020, 09:18:08 am

Tavern Mimic: largely immobile, astronomical hit points and defences, entices and digests players, capable of blocking entire streets. Easily defeated via contacting your local planning authority.

Mimic buildings are nothing new, but I think they'd fit in quite well with this setting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 15, 2020, 11:22:18 am

Quote from: NJW2000 on June 15, 2020, 09:18:08 am

Tavern Mimic: largely immobile, astronomical hit points and defences, entices and digests players, capable of blocking entire streets. Easily defeated via contacting your local planning authority.

Mimic buildings are nothing new, but I think they'd fit in quite well with this setting.

I'm thinking of also adding the mimicnomicron or just a shit ton of neat environmental hazards to also change things that way (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/18708-the-mimic-book-of-mimics). I like the idea that the players start reading the mimicnomicron and it promises to tell them where the nearest mimic is. They flip to the next page and it just reads "HOUSE"

Also I simply must have a scene where they all shrink to a tiny size on a beach or desert oasis and have to help a sand kingdom defeat a normal sized enemy crab (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYRu6MwmFYE) in order to return to normal

Also I'm thinking the only thing worse than ghosts in a house full of locked doors, is a house full of unlocked doors that the ghosts then all lock once the players are in

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on June 15, 2020, 11:37:22 am

If anyone else bought the Bundle for Racial Justice and Equality (https://itch.io/b/520/bundle-for-racial-justice-and-equality), you've got to check this (https://kumada1.itch.io/rod-reel-fist) out.

Just in case you wanted to reenact Legend of the River King while keeping your options open for Barkley Shut Up And Jam Gaiden-esque cyberpunk or wandering-martial-arts-em-up Fist of the North Star.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 15, 2020, 12:26:18 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 15, 2020, 11:22:18 am

Also I simply must have a scene where they all shrink to a tiny size on a beach or desert oasis and have to help a sand kingdom defeat a normal sized enemy crab (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYRu6MwmFYE) in order to return to normal

"It's a normal-sized enemy crab!"

"Attack its weak spot for moderate damage!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Devastator on June 15, 2020, 10:17:07 pm

Some random person in a massive city is planning on destroying it.

Go find that guy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 16, 2020, 12:28:09 pm

Quote from: Devastator on June 15, 2020, 10:17:07 pm

Some random person in a massive city is planning on destroying it.

Go find that guy.

Before long, the players uncover a plot that they are being used by domestic security services to justify inordinate spending on a domestic war on terrorists who don't pose a threat to the city

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 16, 2020, 01:38:55 pm

A doomsday cult plans to destroy the universe. Their chosen method? Heat death. In truth, they're just a gang of slackers who gather weekly for a 'sermon' that mostly involves watching a movie, playing video games or another sedentary activity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 16, 2020, 02:09:20 pm

Does

Does stopping them stop the heat death of the universe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 16, 2020, 06:15:35 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 16, 2020, 02:09:20 pm

Does

Does stopping them stop the heat death of the universe?

Yes, but then you have to deal with the big rip cultists

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 16, 2020, 06:37:28 pm

I'm now imagining this "create cultists to justify the security bureau" scenario going so far and the engineered cultists so harmless that they end up arming them with an actual fucking doomsday device and panicking.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 16, 2020, 07:10:33 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on June 16, 2020, 01:38:55 pm

A doomsday cult plans to destroy the universe. Their chosen method? Heat death. In truth, they're just a gang of slackers who gather weekly for a 'sermon' that mostly involves watching a movie, playing video games or another sedentary activity.

Ah, so this is where demon cults come from.  I always wondered.
(As opposed to devil cultists who are evil go-getters with plans)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 16, 2020, 07:24:39 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on June 16, 2020, 06:37:28 pm

I'm now imagining this "create cultists to justify the security bureau" scenario going so far and the engineered cultists so harmless that they end up arming them with an actual fucking doomsday device and panicking.

Reminds me of how in the UK, we used to have these special branches of undercover police whose jobs it was to infiltrate extreme groups which had the potential to destabilize government or hatch terrorist plots. The problem was, these undercover police officers were selected from amongst some of the best police, being highly trained and highly motivated. Thus once they infiltrated the gangs, groups and organisations, it wouldn't be long before they were put in leadership, administrative and logistical roles - where undercover police often complained their effective skillset was being used to make the group way more effective and threatening than if they had just been left alone.

Also the really good film Jin Roh Wolf Brigade, which spoiler alert: you later find out that the terrorists

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

are actually plants being used by the civilian police department to discredit the paramilitary police department. The paramilitary police KNOW that the terrorist threat is fake, but are running along with it because they can use the public awareness of the fake terrorists to lure out the civilian police department and have the "terrorists" wipe out all of their civilian counterparts in an unfortunate engagement - thus justifying the use of the paramilitaries, and removing their civilian critics. It's just layers and layers of conspiracy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 21, 2020, 01:05:13 am

(https://i.redd.it/im6howl8l1651.png)

Related to that Asian set campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 21, 2020, 06:05:47 am

I absolutely love that, thanks for sharing

Also I see you, wangland

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 21, 2020, 06:54:50 am

Yeetlight is pretty strong too.

Oh my goodley freend, ye do miss the days when me lived on Kinbright. Presently near Eastrush does suit me kindly, but me long for the mountains and the clouds of the town before. Long past forgotten are myne times and myne troubles in Deepfurrow and Feywelken, though fondly remembered some times there may be.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 21, 2020, 07:55:46 am

Spoiler: let's all go to wangland (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/jHpew1A.gif)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on June 21, 2020, 08:17:16 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on June 16, 2020, 01:38:55 pm

A doomsday cult plans to destroy the universe. Their chosen method? Heat death. In truth, they're just a gang of slackers who gather weekly for a 'sermon' that mostly involves watching a movie, playing video games or another sedentary activity.

The mysterious Ex Machina cult consists of chaos magicians and computer scientists and plans to derive the properties of a reality containing an omnipotent being and then plug those parameters into a high fidelity simulation.  Said entity, being omnipotent, can then exit the simulation and enter the real world.  They assume it will be friendly to its creators.

The unconventional hazard response team investigated them and decided to leave them alone.  Omnipotent beings don't respect linear causality, so if their goal was even theoretically achievable the god would already be here.  Since it's not, the cult is harmless.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 21, 2020, 08:37:38 am

Thothaven!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on June 25, 2020, 01:52:03 pm

I was reading this Imgur album when a terrible idea struck me. (https://imgur.com/gallery/9SHnJbJ)

What if you had a D&D campaign that only permitted third party content?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 25, 2020, 02:17:35 pm

You, a power ranger, a teletubby barbarian and a choclomancer called Willy enter a bar

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 27, 2020, 07:36:17 am

Scuse me, don't mind me, just-- Pardon me, I'm


Hexblade 1/Fighter 2/Assassin 3/Sorcerer 14

Sorcerer bloodline is a bit up to taste, since there's some good tactical potential with Shadow but any particularly fancy damage shit is UA. For the sake of this demonstration, we'll be assuming Dragon (fire) for the sake of an extra 10 damage.

Splitting stats three ways and going for an Evoker would've been sweet, but unfortunately Overchannel doesn't work on spells cast above level 5...

Yadda yadda advantage/autocrit/hexcurse... We're assuming getting initiative/surprise on an enemy for the sake of this damage calculation. We're also going to assume that, with advantage and whatever, we're hitting every attack (slight stretch, even with Halfling, but makes things much simpler).


Round 1:
Hexblade Curse
8 Scorching Rays (one instance of +5 damage from bloodline)
Action Surge
7 Scorching Rays (one instance of +5 damage from bloodline)

15 rays total, at 2d6 damage per ray. Every hit is a critical, so 4d6 per ray. +6 from curse.

60d6+90+5+5. Average of 210 +100, maximum of 360 +100.

Average will of course get skewed by Empowered Spell metamagic, Elemental Adept etc.


Now, a Paladin mix will still be able to reach noticeably higher maximums, but the average and consistent damage from this surprise burn build will actually be higher unless it's a fiendish or undead opponent. It's also got a drastically higher minimum damage.


Of course, neither can get even remotely close to a Twilight Druid magic missile build, but that's UA  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 27, 2020, 07:54:03 am

What's the best build that shuts down combat for the most possible amount of rounds without dealing damage? Ideally something that also protects the monster from being murderhoboed

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on June 27, 2020, 08:15:01 am

Xanathar's Guide has the Paladin of Redemption. Early highlights include the Calm Emotions spell to call a parley (include your murderhobo friends in the blast), and the Compelled Duel + Sanctuary combo to force a creature to attack you but be unable to do so. On the other hand, the oath will be tricky to uphold if the other players aren't into trying to diplomance every encounter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on June 27, 2020, 08:18:10 am

Sanctuary is great.

Mantle of Majesty from Glamour Bard let's them throw Command as a bonus action.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 02, 2020, 01:37:30 pm

So I've been thinking about some monsters as part of a worldbuilding idea I've got, and figured I'd cross post them here from Giantitp, which is where I normally post D&D/rpg related stuff. Generally speaking my ideas are based around a world where humans are the only mortal race that exists, everything else is mystical or folkloric or weird.

First up is a loosely celtic inspired take on orcs, second is an attempt to make Arabic style ghouls fit into the same general themes, with a smidge of Baba Yaga thrown in.

Warning, there's something of a wall of text.

Spoiler: Orcs (click to show/hide)

Orcs don't have much of a folkloric basis, just kind of a generic word for monsters and demons presumed to derive from the gallic god Orcus, so since I was going for a celtic vibe I decided to throw out the entire concept and made up a new idea based on the Pictish word orc, which means boar. I basically mashed together selkies, kelpies, boars and the Tuatha de Danaan. So in Irish folklore as I understand it the fairies used to be a race of magical men who lived aboveground before they got tricked into living underground by the ancestors of the modern Irish, who offered to split Ireland 50/50 as part of a peace treaty between their people. The Irish picked first and chose aboveground, the fairies then all went under the earth. For my purposes I refluffed kelpies, selkies and the new orcs as fairies who rejected this deal and took on animal forms to roam the world where other fairies couldn't.

Orcs became monstrous creatures that live in woodlands and hunt those who enter without offering them a sacrifice first. They look like large wild boar, with humanlike hands where their hooves would be. If they catch an intruder they will throttle them, then drag them into the woods to string their body up on the trees around their home, which is usually a hollow under a tree or a cave. In those hollows and caves they can assume their true form, that of a proud and cruel man/woman, a former warrior of the fairy folk.

Spoiler: Ghouls (click to show/hide)

Ghouls are a monstrous race, kin to witches and evil spirits, though their exact nature is difficult to determine. Ghouls feed on the flesh and blood of humans, are adept at various forms of trickery and covet silver. Nocturnal and solitary, ghouls prefer to dwell in places they are unlikely to be disturbed, but still near human settlements. Graveyards, abandoned buildings, dense woodland, the fringes of deserts and other such locations are perfect places for a ghoul to take residence. Some particularly powerful and cunning ghouls take up active lives among their victims, often as sages, physicians or mystics, leveraging their magical abilities and ancient wisdom to anchor themselves in the community of their prey like a tick.

Most ghouls are capable of some magic, often shapeshifting or illusions, which are used to lure in gullible humans, such as drunks and children to kill and consume. If unable to catch fresh prey ghouls will instead dig up and eat buried humans, but being forced to do so for extended periods weakens the creature and may drive them to temporary madness, becoming detached from reality.

In their true state most ghouls resemble a human, with emaciated limbs and a sagging pot belly, thin lips and teeth similar to those of a canine, some bear canine or hyena-like features with the most grotesque examples being long hairless snouts filled with sharp teeth. As shapeshifters most ghouls can assume the form of any human, canine or hyena. They often turn into the form of lost or deceased people from the community on which they prey, using this guise to lure in victims to devour.

Ghouls cannot truly die, when killed their body dissolves into festering mould and damp sand, the spirit of the creature fleeing to construct a new body elsewhere. Despite their immortality ghouls have an unshakeable aversion to the light of dawn, refusing to go outside until the sun has reached it's zenith and returning indoors hours before the sun rises. They also fear fire, for wounds left by flame persist through any illusion or transformation they can perform. Beasts of burden, horses, donkeys, oxen and camels refuse to bear a ghoul as rider or as a passenger in a drawn vehicle, no punishment or reward can entice them to move the foul creature.

A concerted effort made by those who would end the predations of ghouls has resulted in many scattering from their native lands, spreading thin throughout the world to avoid being trapped or mutilated by those who hunt them. Ghouls can be trapped by various means, being buried alive in coffins, bricked up in rooms, chained and left to rot in cells unable to die. Some of the more mystically inclined hunters crafted leashes with spells of binding scribed upon them that can force a ghoul to stay in canine/hyena form and obey the commands of a master, turning the foul beast into a peerless hunting hound, albeit one that needs human flesh or blood to remain truly healthy, and which will break free if the leash if damaged or removed.

On rare occasions a ghoul will reveal itself to a select few humans, offering them magical tutoring in exchange for sacrifices. The pupils of such ghouls may be asked to offer their blood to their teacher as part of each lesson, or permitting their master to be to consume an eye or a few fingers, or to bring the ghoul humans or fresh human remains to feed on. In general the more extreme the price the less often it will be asked of the pupil.

It is unknown if ghouls reproduce in any way. While they possess gender there are no reports of ghoul children existing, or of ghouls mating. Some scholars theorise that ghouls can be created from the spirits of the dead through a time consuming and costly rite, others that those who learn magic from ghouls may ultimately transform into a new member of the race if given time to mature and grow in power, yet more claim them to be the offspring of humans and wolves conceived at the stroke of midnight. Whatever the answer, ghouls are rare but troubling creatures, their paths littered with the bones of countless victims claimed over centuries or millennia of unwholesome life.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 02, 2020, 01:48:01 pm

Good stuff, Grim! I like the Boarcs a lot.

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 02, 2020, 01:37:30 pm

Orcs became monstrous creatures that live in woodlands and hunt those who enter without offering them a sacrifice first. They look like large wild boar, with humanlike hands where their hooves would be.

Especially the back hooves, right?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 02, 2020, 01:54:08 pm

Quote from: scriver on July 02, 2020, 01:48:01 pm

Good stuff, Grim! I like the Boarcs a lot.

Thanks. I'm quite proud of the orcs. :D

Quote

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 02, 2020, 01:37:30 pm

Orcs became monstrous creatures that live in woodlands and hunt those who enter without offering them a sacrifice first. They look like large wild boar, with humanlike hands where their hooves would be.

Especially the back hooves, right?

Oh indeed. Human parts on animals, especially parts in the wrong places while being on animals is something I've learned is very unsettling, more so than the usual folktale thing of animal parts on humans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 02, 2020, 05:13:52 pm

I've had a world concept banging around in my head for ages, where the basic gist is that the living and spirit worlds are sort of superimposed on one another, but each one's ability to see the other is generally quite limited.

"Souls" are then the spiritual energy of a living creature that's passed on into the spirit world, where its senses dull and its mind gets reduced, as it's not just free-floating life energy trying to remember what it was. Sometimes they reincarnate, looking to become what they once were, and sometimes they just float around and forget what they were doing, either dwindling down and becoming something smaller or clumping together with others into a larger mass.

The reincarnated souls try to find something that resembles what they think they are, and the closer a fit it is, the more "alive" the creature then becomes. But, again, their perceptions are a bit foggy... So sometimes they flop into things that just look "close enough". This is how we get reanimated dead, as the spirits are either confused or tricked into inhabiting bodies that aren't as intact as the idea they have of themselves, resulting in sluggish, clumsy, mostly-braindead animations (this was supposed to lead into a statue created by a master artisan, which was so perfectly lifelike that a soul inhabited it and attained intelligence).

But the soul clumps are more interesting... Now you have a mass of various spirits, each with its own fading memories of what it used to be, but all of them start wanting to live again. Eventually the mass gets powerful enough that it can just kind of muscle its way through and form its own body (or force change on an existing body, causing it to grow into something different), based on what it thinks it is... Which, considering on where the component souls come from, could be quite the combination. This is how we get monsters, boars with fish fins and bears with goat heads. Chimeras. They also tend to be rather large and powerful, if still chaotic and uncoordinated; because even though the body doesn't really match any of the memories in it spot-on, the mass as a whole has such a large amount of life power that it's basically a supercharged creation.


There's a few holes and gaps in the theme here and there, but it provided a basis for a lot of elements I wanted to include so hah :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 03, 2020, 02:05:17 pm

Quote from: scriver on July 02, 2020, 01:48:01 pm

Good stuff, Grim! I like the Boarcs a lot.

pOrks

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 03, 2020, 02:56:15 pm

LOOKS LIKE PORK IS BACK ON THE MENU, BOARCS

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 04, 2020, 04:02:37 pm

Also does anyone here have a decent grasp of chemical hazards? I'm trying to implement a dungeon whose entrance is a lake of mercury the expedition has to sail across, full of occasional mercury oozes that devour gold/silver. Yet I'm trying to think how far I should go when it comes to implementing mercury exposure poisoning, as I assume an underground lake of mercury is also going to have lots of airborne mercury too

I assume I can just handwaive it with protective charms / decontamination showers though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 04, 2020, 04:11:34 pm

I didn't think mercury generally *liked* being airborne for very long.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 04, 2020, 04:16:55 pm

There is that Cody's Lab episode where he eats (drinks?) some metallic mercury and then doesn't die. Maybe it would be different if you had a whole lake of it? I'd recommend not eating any bats or cave monsters you find down there, at least. :p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on July 04, 2020, 04:21:51 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 04, 2020, 04:02:37 pm

Also does anyone here have a decent grasp of chemical hazards? I'm trying to implement a dungeon whose entrance is a lake of mercury the expedition has to sail across, full of occasional mercury oozes that devour gold/silver. Yet I'm trying to think how far I should go when it comes to implementing mercury exposure poisoning, as I assume an underground lake of mercury is also going to have lots of airborne mercury too

I assume I can just handwaive it with protective charms / decontamination showers though

Shouldn't be a lot of vapors, unless someone chucks a fireball.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 04, 2020, 04:25:38 pm

Elemental mercury = vapors are dangerous, passes skin but very slowly, ingestion actually is not very dangerous because your digestive system won't pick it up.

Ethylmercury = Thimerosal (the vaccine preservative) metabolizes into this, otherwise rare. Neurotoxic, but not overly dangerous because it doesn't bio-accumulate.

Methylmercury = Nightmare chemical. Heavily bio-accumulative, and hence is the kind they warn you about in fish even though it's not much present in the water. Any significant concentration will dissolve your nervous system and kill you horribly, as one scientist infamously found out - it took her two years to die as I recall. Penetrates rubber gloves and skin.

Elemental mercury is so dense that you might not be able to sail across it per se - the ship won't sink and thus could tip over. You could theoretically walk across a sea of it, sinking partially depending on your density and that of your equipment.

Mercury poisoning is cured by chelation therapy - this is not very effective against methylmercury, though. As far as I know it works fine on elemental mercury. Materials used for chelation are liable to kill you if you don't measure it proportionate to what is being removed.

A good summary of chemical hazards can be found by searching for an appropriate Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). Here's one for elemental mercury. (https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds?partNumber=M1416LB&productDescription=MERCURY+MTL+INST+GRD+REAG+6LB&vendorId=VN00033897&countryCode=US&language=en)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 04, 2020, 05:46:43 pm

Elemental mercury conducts electricity well, even as a vapour. If the wizard is careless enough to throw a lightning bolt, punish them. On the subject of magic, mercury is important to alchemy as a form of matter easy to transmute into other forms. A wild magic surge or other such miscast might be particularly unpredictable in the presence of a sea of the stuff.

Quote from: Iduno on July 04, 2020, 04:21:51 pm

Shouldn't be a lot of vapors, unless someone chucks a fireball.

Random encounter: fire elemental.

Quote from: Iduno on July 04, 2020, 04:21:51 pm

Elemental mercury is so dense that you might not be able to sail across it per se - the ship won't sink and thus could tip over.

Build your ship out of tungsten carbide.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 04, 2020, 05:52:05 pm

You'd probably want a wide raft or something, to distribute the weight of you and all your stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 05, 2020, 05:29:46 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 04, 2020, 05:52:05 pm

You'd probably want a wide raft or something, to distribute the weight of you and all your stuff.

Catamaran or an outrigger would also do

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on July 04, 2020, 04:25:38 pm

Elemental mercury = vapors are dangerous, passes skin but very slowly, ingestion actually is not very dangerous because your digestive system won't pick it up.

Ethylmercury = Thimerosal (the vaccine preservative) metabolizes into this, otherwise rare. Neurotoxic, but not overly dangerous because it doesn't bio-accumulate.

Methylmercury = Nightmare chemical. Heavily bio-accumulative, and hence is the kind they warn you about in fish even though it's not much present in the water. Any significant concentration will dissolve your nervous system and kill you horribly, as one scientist infamously found out - it took her two years to die as I recall. Penetrates rubber gloves and skin.

Elemental mercury is so dense that you might not be able to sail across it per se - the ship won't sink and thus could tip over. You could theoretically walk across a sea of it, sinking partially depending on your density and that of your equipment.

Mercury poisoning is cured by chelation therapy - this is not very effective against methylmercury, though. As far as I know it works fine on elemental mercury. Materials used for chelation are liable to kill you if you don't measure it proportionate to what is being removed.

A good summary of chemical hazards can be found by searching for an appropriate Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). Here's one for elemental mercury. (https://www.fishersci.com/store/msds?partNumber=M1416LB&productDescription=MERCURY+MTL+INST+GRD+REAG+6LB&vendorId=VN00033897&countryCode=US&language=en)

mega noice

Quote from: IcyTea31 on July 04, 2020, 05:46:43 pm

Build your ship out of tungsten carbide.

I already have one player who is champing at the bit to make orbital tungsten bombardment a reality, I feel like such a thing would have unintended consequences

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 05, 2020, 07:44:35 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 05, 2020, 05:29:46 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on July 04, 2020, 05:46:43 pm

Build your ship out of tungsten carbide.

I already have one player who is champing at the bit to make orbital tungsten bombardment a reality, I feel like such a thing would have unintended consequences

*Drow sign language* "Excuse us but what the fuck"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"We *finally* put the Illithids to sleep yestercentury, do you have any idea what you've done"

Or, or, maybe the bottom of the world wraps around to the top of the sky, and a rod manages to pierce the bedrock.  Cue a periodic rain of valuable ore meteorites, if you can bear the constant supersonic scream of the falling rod.  I feel like it'd spawn tornadoes, no, firestorms over time...  Debris blocking out the sun...  Basically the first level of DND Hell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 05, 2020, 10:08:18 am

Are there any naturally deaf creatures in DnD?

There are plenty without ears, but...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 06, 2020, 03:52:31 am

Interesting thought! I know some monsters feature a core mechanic that revolves around real disabilities, but nothing specifically jumps to mind regarding the deaf. Plus, that kind of thing edges awfully close to disrespecting those who legitimately suffer from such a disability. While I can get behind the idea of an elderly NPC that simply screeches "WHAT?!" at the players, I don't know that I'd be comfortable with anything that made light of the difficulties faced by those born without hearing, especially knowing one personally and being good friends with their brother.

Interestingly, Pathfinder 1e does have a creature that carries a deaf tag, the Akata (http://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Akata). Given that it's a hairless blue space-lion with tentacles for a mane, I don't think it edges too close to being disrespectful either. Unless, of course, you self-identify as a hairless blue space-lion. No worries though, just be sure to give me a heads up and I'll make sure I avoid disrespecting your body identity in-game. Also, no, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in helping you LARP your character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on July 06, 2020, 07:28:22 am

The monster isn't deaf but the false hydra homebrew comes to mind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 06, 2020, 08:15:15 am

I thought of it in respect to Dark Souls, which has a couple enemies who are lacking a sense, but doesn't rub it in your face. I know there are blind creatures in DnD, though most have Blindsight, which removes that aspect from avoiding them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2020, 08:32:47 am

Hey guys, an amazing anon on /tg/ found a DND chick tract in a yard sale

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/HGPajfB.png)

Tbh at least Marcie learned not to play DND, and learned instead to play real cult classics like Dark Heresy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 06, 2020, 08:54:01 am

I had that one as a kid.  They used to be pretty common, especially in payphone booths.  Every once in a while you'll find one left in some conspicuous place, on top of public bathroom dryers is the usual spot.  A rare surprise now though.  Also bumper sticker people.  People would show up at public events in parks like baseball games with religious bumper stickers all over their cars and lurk around the bleachers, and if you went to look at the bumper stickers they'd show up and give you a chick tract.  I got one like that before I learned my lesson, it was this one though (https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0001).

One of the things we lost with the march of time, I'm nostalgic now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2020, 12:21:42 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 06, 2020, 08:54:01 am

I had that one as a kid.  They used to be pretty common, especially in payphone booths.  Every once in a while you'll find one left in some conspicuous place, on top of public bathroom dryers is the usual spot.  A rare surprise now though.  Also bumper sticker people.  People would show up at public events in parks like baseball games with religious bumper stickers all over their cars and lurk around the bleachers, and if you went to look at the bumper stickers they'd show up and give you a chick tract.  I got one like that before I learned my lesson, it was this one though (https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0001).

One of the things we lost with the march of time, I'm nostalgic now.

Lmao I can't think of a hell worse than St. Peter reviewing your internet history

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 06, 2020, 12:45:25 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2020, 12:21:42 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 06, 2020, 08:54:01 am

I had that one as a kid.  They used to be pretty common, especially in payphone booths.  Every once in a while you'll find one left in some conspicuous place, on top of public bathroom dryers is the usual spot.  A rare surprise now though.  Also bumper sticker people.  People would show up at public events in parks like baseball games with religious bumper stickers all over their cars and lurk around the bleachers, and if you went to look at the bumper stickers they'd show up and give you a chick tract.  I got one like that before I learned my lesson, it was this one though (https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=0001).

One of the things we lost with the march of time, I'm nostalgic now.

Lmao I can't think of a hell worse than St. Peter reviewing your internet history

It's fun to laugh at now but I was like 9 when I got it and it fucking terrified me

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 06, 2020, 01:02:28 pm

Jack Chick is an amazing window into a hyperspecific late-80s/early-90s American political pathology for the sections of the Protestant apocalyptic religious right that just sort of assumed they'd either get to go theocracy or that the Antichrist was just around the corner. The only other thing that really stands clearly alongside him in that is the Left Behind books.

The thing that strikes me most about that strain is that it seems to have picked up on edgy atheists saying "Heaven would be a horrible dictatorship" and liberal Christians saying "No, heaven is mystical and wonderful!" and then because they hate the liberal Christians even more than the atheists responding "Actually, heaven is a horrible dictatorship and you should be GRATEFUL that your KING AND LORD even offers that much, you fucking swine!" Like, they seriously describe heaven in terms worse than hell sometimes, which of course the edgy atheists then picked up in turn for pro-hell memes the rest of the 90s.

I could go on, but suffice it to say I find the whole thing the best bit of Christian fanfic since Dante.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2020, 01:05:16 pm

Still, his art is great and his lore makes for a good WoD setting or DRYH setting. See how long you can make it before the Lord notices you've strayed from the path

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 06, 2020, 01:07:17 pm

Funny you would mention that... (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/LeftBeyond)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2020, 01:26:11 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on July 06, 2020, 01:07:17 pm

Funny you would mention that... (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/LeftBeyond)

Reminds me of that /int/ post apocalyptic setting where the Christian fundamentalist terrorists are fighting to try and blow up the reality anchor that is slowly tearing God apart

"We must dissent"
t. best girl in SMAC

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 07, 2020, 04:20:13 pm

"God save us!"

*stabs hand*

"God be saved!"


EDIT: Moving beyond that horridness...

So, a person killed by a shadow's life drain attack will have their own shadow animate a few hours after death, leaving the body without a shadow.

This brings up some curious questions, seeing as a mundane shadow is simply a dark patch caused by a relevant light source getting blocked. Which means that, in this case, the body is therefore no longer blocking light.

Ignoring the obvious fuckery of it still appearing as an opaque object, if you were to hold such a body up to the sun, would you get blinded through the corpse?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 08, 2020, 04:02:06 am

My only contribution to the christianity in RPG genre is that I love how the Pathfinder Inquisitor class archetype character wears a costume that nobody ever expects.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/4fc69e66-426b-44b3-b137-4c1b5682ffc0/d8sdjtr-068b8b63-e51b-423b-abda-bc2c4ad110c2.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvNGZjNjllNjYtNDI2Yi00NGIzLWIxMzctNGMxYjU2ODJmZmMwXC9kOHNkanRyLTA2OGI4YjYzLWU1MWItNDIzYi1hYmRhLWJjMmM0YWQxMTBjMi5qcGcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.OIMPlzOitPF15BRTc6wrqcoMlZVED8UYr3XV9_VUAcE)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 08, 2020, 04:06:04 am

...is that a foot loop AND a winch on that crossbow? There's a lot going on with that picture.

The ear-tip holes are a cute touch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 08, 2020, 07:33:15 am

The best part of the ear tip holes is that they hold the hat in place so that it never moves away from its mysterious face-enshadowing tilt. Stylish AND practical.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 08, 2020, 08:21:35 am

Are those ear tip holes? They don't really line up with where the ears are pointing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 08, 2020, 08:31:46 am

Oh. That's probably right.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 08, 2020, 08:32:31 am

No, I think the holes are for the chin strap. Another angle:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/8/87/Imrijka.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 08, 2020, 09:35:38 pm

Was looking through the MM and found myself thinking about how wildly dysfunctional some of the sapient beings are.

Ogres and Hill Giants in particular are ridiculously stupid, in 5e they have just one point of INT more than a raptor, and one point less than an ape. They can't write, they can't read, they can barely speak in comprehensible sentences. Ogres are wildly antisocial and Hill Giants don't understand that eating rotten or poisonous food makes you sick. Somehow both are often portrayed as forming mostly functional tribes, wearing crude clothing, wielding weapons and forming alliances with other races.

These are supposedly sapient, ensouled beings who are less intelligent than the average gorilla. And also probably the below-average gorillas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 08, 2020, 09:55:57 pm

5e is somewhat inconsistent with intelligence scores. 3 is supposed to be the barrier for sapience, with 2 for advanced animals, 1 for simple animals, and 0 or Null for anything lesser. But at the same time, you could play a Kobold or Orc who gets -2 intelligence and go all the way down to 1. This also brings up weird questions about what it might mean to have 1 INT and 20 WIS (the aliens from Blindsight, imo).

So for a Hill Giant, having 5 INT is well above the barrier and probably does decently represent their society, but yet have less INT than apes. And at this point is also edging into actual philosophical and scientific discussion of what intelligence even means. Take feral human children, for example. They demonstrate massively reduced mental capacity compared to other humans. Are Hill Giants just a feral society, then? If you gift the Hill Giant leader a Headband of Intellect, will the next generation of Hill Giants massively jump up in INT because their educator had 19 INT instead of 5?

Or perhaps is it possible to be less intelligent than a non-sapient animal, and sapience is a special checkmark that you can have or not? My brain can't do 3d movement like a falcon's can, is that an intellectual failing? I can't do math like a computer can, is that an intellectual failing?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on July 08, 2020, 10:56:13 pm

Keep in mind... what D&D calls "Intelligence" these days is little more than a number that affects other numbers. I don't think 5e actually has a "sapience barrier", and I know it doesn't have Intelligence barriers for language and reading and whatnot.

I like to take Investigation proficiency and a decent Wisdom score on my Int-dump characters, when I can. Gives them a nice "street-smart" feel.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 08, 2020, 11:05:36 pm

I know in 2nd ed having an Int of 1 gives you 0 known languages, with an asterisk specifying this means a character can only speak with "grunts and gestures".  I guess like a low int character in Fallout 1 or 2.  However, as apparently half-orcs aren't in the 2nd ed players handbook, one could only achieve 1 int via curse or spell.

I believe 3rd establishes 3 as smarter than the average bear animal.  But I don't know if later editions bother.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2020, 12:30:19 am

Hill giants aren't dumb, they just too big for their brain

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 12:42:22 am

Sometimes the intelligence score indicates useful things about a monster, sometimes I'll ignore or change it.  Ogres are like five int which is beyond stupid, and I just wouldn't permit a 1 int PC even if it comes out that way in the rules.

Other times it suggests tactics and capabilities.  Goblins have 10 int and I think 12 wis, which makes them much more dangerous than they're usually written.  They can come up with any tactics an average human might, set up ambushes and chokepoints, identify the most visibly dangerous enemies (probably can't identify the power level of a wizard, but can tell a guy in full plate with a greatsword is more dangerous than a guy in rags with a knife, which a 5 int ogre will not), pick their battles

Which is completely contrary to how they're usually written, which is why I mostly hate goblins and never use them as written.  The first encounter many new D&D players have is the four goblins in lost mines of phandelver, who stand in the middle of the road and then rush into melee with a group of obviously well-equipped adventurers who possibly outnumber them.  It's stupid and it's not playing to the goblins' strengths, which they're absolutely smart enough to understand and use.  The correct way to play that encounter, if we assume they have to fight and can't get reinforcements, would be to have them hide in the bushes and fire arrows, stick and move, and go for the softest targets first.  They can hide as a bonus action so in the undergrowth they'll be a huge bitch to flush out.

Of course, if you played them like that, there's a solid chance they'd TPK your party.  Goblin slayer sucks, but goblins are certainly orders of magnitude more dangerous than most adventures treat them.

Also, note that thing about identifying targets.  Would a gorilla know that a guy wearing metal armor is tougher than one who isn't?  Probably not, and an ape is smarter than an ogre.  So am I supposed to conclude that an ogre doesn't know what metal is?

5e has a big problem with mechanics that don't jive with the world they're intended to describe.  It's not as bad as 4e for that (bloody path maybe the most egregious example) but there's a lot of shit like that where a rule is written for a game purpose and doesn't make sense when you try to translate it into the Actual Existing World the game's rules are meant to represent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2020, 12:49:33 am

Does a gorilla know that a nut is harder to crack than a berry, but is food none the less? So does an ogre know that the armoured man has a hard shell to keep all the squishy goodies inside in place

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 09, 2020, 12:58:50 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 12:42:22 am

a guy in full plate with a greatsword is more dangerous than a guy in rags with a knife

Anybody who's witnessed a single Sneak Attack will know this isn't true. Fun fact that I found out the hard way: A crit Sneak Attack will one-shot most player classes if they are the same level as the attacking rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2020, 03:17:04 am

But an enemy same level rogue is always the CR [party level]+2

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 09, 2020, 04:00:50 am

Now that you mention it, I don't know for sure what that rogue's level was, I just assumed it was the same because having played rogue before it would be an unimaginable cruelty to put the party up against a higher level source of Sneak Attacks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 09, 2020, 04:02:29 am

I once had a PC with a Charisma of 3 (as charismatic as a squid).

Remember Wisdom carries a lot in 5e. A gorilla might not recognize a suit of armor, but could instinctually know that the Rogue is a better target to kill first. Intelligence seems mostly related to mental endurance (studying/investigating/remembering). These are qualities of sentience, but not the totality of sapience.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2020, 04:47:51 am

Yeah, that sound about right actually. One could even say Intelligence is sapience, and Wisdom in sentience. And Charisma is egotism.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 09, 2020, 05:04:03 am

Intelligence is IQ
Charisma is EQ
Wisdom is XP

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 09, 2020, 06:06:27 am

Yeah, it's a bit worthless to argue over, as it's just a game contrivance, but it's fun to compare statistics between creatures.

A hippogriff has an intelligence of 2 - as a highly trainable intelligent animal.

A stone golem has an intelligence of 3 - as an object created to do a single task.

A skeleton has an intelligence of 6 - as an object created to do a single task.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 07:57:04 am

I mean it doesn't need to be a game contrivance.  Int and Wis can/should be a useful thing to look at when figuring out how your monsters behave.

Yes, I'd buy that a rogue can one-shot equal level players, PC and monster math and mechanics are very different, which is another thing that kind of bugs me about 5e.  Players are designed to fight "monsters" as defined in the rules, and have very low health and gigantic damage.  Rogue sneak attack damage makes sense when you remember that a CR 1/2 thug can have up to 50 HP.  Among other things it makes pvp and NPCs designed with PC rules unworkable.

I'm making a lancer game, which also uses different player/monster math, but I'll let it slide since the game is simpler overall.  I don't hate 5e, it's perfectly serviceable, but I don't think it's as good as 3.5 or even 4e.  3.5 and 4e are mostly very good at the specific things they do.  You may not like those things, in the case of 4e (I hate 4e's dissociated mechanics, like the aforementioned bloody path, but if you just want a tactical wargame it works well)

My lancer game is gonna be a treasure hunt, but my RPG prepwork is increasingly indistinguishable from my job (https://i.imgur.com/mzMRfyG.png).  Patron sending them after a macguffin that a rival wants, they'll have to figure out where he's looking for it since he's ahead and try to cut him off.  Gonna be on a desert planet, a few different locations to look at and they'll need something from each of the two main sites (The lab, which'll have a still-functioning graywash nanite factory, which is what the incident report is about, somebody got gray gooed) to find the final location where the macguffin is stored.  Not sure what it is right now, probably some paracausal data storage, like you need to be in a certain physical location in the galaxy to actually read all the data cause it doesn't exist fully in this reality, maybe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 09, 2020, 09:37:51 am

That's an interesting point. Presumably, the Monster Manual's entries teach us enough about how a monster hunts (i.e., by inslaving you, going by 90% of monsters). It'd be awesome if Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma gave us some sort of formula for how different monsters would interact in a conflict.

A hill giant, two goblins, and a gnoll have teamed up to wreck havoc on the country-side. Perhaps the giant is the presumed leader, but is actually being controlled and coaxed by the goblins, while the gnoll is only loyal until a fight looks to be going south.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2020, 11:11:42 am

No, that's not how it would go. The Gnoll would be Inigo Montoya, the giant would be André the Giant, and the two goblins would be Fezzec in a trenchcoat

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 11:29:13 am

I dunno if a hill giant would accept being controlled by goblins, at least overtly, but they might be playing wormtongue.  I'd think they wouldn't live very long in that grouping.  Modern gnolls are basically killmonsters, they have no motivation beyond tearing shit up.

Monsters do have some behavioral info in their text blocks, but it's not always complete and doesn't always jive.  Hobgoblins for example, which are also as smart as humans and basically crack military types, highly disciplined and capable of advanced strategy and tactics, throw all that in the trash and just charge in recklessly when they see an elf, for example, which is weird.  If I remember right they also misuse goblins, doing the usual "just run forward and melee until you die" tactic with them when they should be smart and tactically adept enough to recognize their real use as skirmishers.  Goblins excel at viet cong tactics, kobolds are the classic trap race but there's no reason goblins can't do it too, and their hide on bonus action means they can shoot, vanish, and relocate every round in rough terrain.  Just rules-wise they can punch well above their weight when played properly, and in a more narrative context with hobgoblins and goblins fighting a human force, can't discount the morale effects of a force like that.  Constant random harassing attacks, poisoned and infectious arrows, booby-traps designed to maim instead of kill, and chasing them into the woods is exactly what they want you to do.

The rules support this, but they're almost never used in this way in published adventures.  Despite me going on and on about them I fucking hate goblins and never use them.  They're such an absolute known quantity, pose zero threat (unless you use them right in which case they're a very possible TPK), just reek of everything boring and bland about D&D.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 09, 2020, 12:47:32 pm

Honestly, the big problem is morale is just absent after like 2nd edition.  There's no system in place to justify monsters fleeing battle so generally everything fights to the death, and on the flip side encounters are generally set up so players should win, so they don't flee either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2020, 01:57:18 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 11:29:13 am

I dunno if a hill giant would accept being controlled by goblins, at least overtly, but they might be playing wormtongue.  I'd think they wouldn't live very long in that grouping.

That's why they're in a trench coat, that way they appear bigger than they are

Quote

Modern gnolls are basically killmonsters, they have no motivation beyond tearing shit up.

This is everything boring and bland about DnD

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 02:44:13 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on July 09, 2020, 12:47:32 pm

Honestly, the big problem is morale is just absent after like 2nd edition.  There's no system in place to justify monsters fleeing battle so generally everything fights to the death, and on the flip side encounters are generally set up so players should win, so they don't flee either.

This is a big part of it.  In general the game is designed around worked, carefully-designed encounters.  4e is the worst for this where it was pretty much engraved into the fabric of the game, but 5e does it too.  I try to design dungeons as a living thing, in the extreme I'll keep track of the organization of the monsters as a kind of probability cloud and pseudo-populate the rooms, moving them where they would reasonably be based on what's happening at the moment.

Ideally the entire dungeon is the battlefield when you're invading something controlled by intelligent, organized enemies.  They'll patrol, keep an eye on possible entrances, raise alarms and set up defensive measures, try to cordon the PCs into the areas they want to fight, execute a plan.  Conversely, PCs can retreat, engage, circle around and flank, use their various resources to break through the enemies' defenses and foil their gameplan.  But modern adventures don't do this very well, dungeons are usually linear and monsters are designed to be fought in a self-contained encounter with no outside interference aside from what's pre-designed into the encounter.  And because the game is designed like this, if players are accustomed to the modern way of doing things they won't handle it well.  THankfully my group was pretty quick on the uptake, the first time I sprung this kind of thing on it they figured out what was going on pretty fast and desisted on the standard "clear each room, kill everything, the game is made for you to win" strategy, but it could take some training.

Old school D&D at least in its core assumptions is better suited to this kind of thing.

The reaction check is also something I'm disappointed they've abandoned, and it feeds into this problem, where intelligent and even some unintelligent monsters react dynamically to the party's presence and may not be immediately hostile.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 09, 2020, 03:12:30 pm

I miss Incursion...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 09, 2020, 03:38:43 pm

Re: enemies using guerilla tactics.

There's theory on whether combat in roleplaying games should be run by the philosophy of sport or of war.

Combat-as-sport is the self-contained room with set number of level-appropriate monsters that might sometimes fight intelligently, but never "unfairly". The player characters are expected to return the favour with kick-in-the-door tactics and direct combat. Kill the one healing the others first. Have the paladin force the tough one into a duel while the rest of the party deals with the flunkies. Cast your own Fly spell to negate the enemy's advantage from the same.

Combat-as-war is the dungeon as a whole built as a defensible fortress designed to kill intruders with maximal efficiency and minimal defender casualties. If faced in direct combat, the player characters are extremely likely to fall. Instead, they are expected to play just as dirty. Build a huge bonfire and flood the dungeon with smoke, choke the kobolds out. Poison the trees with Agent Orange to leave the drop bears with nowhere to hide. Ambush the enemy's camp and destroy their food supply with a long-range Fireball, then get out before they can react.

There isn't a right or wrong way to play a roleplaying game, but it's essential to have everyone on the same page about what sort of combat is expected in the campaign. The philosophies are tools: combat-as-sport easily creates a classic fantasy story of good and evil in honourable direct conflict, while combat-as-war leaves things ambiguous in its verisimilitude. How can you be sure your opponent is evil if all you know of them is artillery targeting data?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 09, 2020, 04:08:54 pm

Quote from: delphonso on July 09, 2020, 09:37:51 am

That's an interesting point. Presumably, the Monster Manual's entries teach us enough about how a monster hunts (i.e., by inslaving you, going by 90% of monsters). It'd be awesome if Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma gave us some sort of formula for how different monsters would interact in a conflict.

A hill giant, two goblins, and a gnoll have teamed up to wreck havoc on the country-side. Perhaps the giant is the presumed leader, but is actually being controlled and coaxed by the goblins, while the gnoll is only loyal until a fight looks to be going south.

Have you seen this blog? (https://www.themonstersknow.com/)
It goes into detail how Int & Wis affect monster behaviour. How they use their abilities, whether they have target prioritisation / who to prioritise, whether they choose to fight at all and if they retreat e.t.c.

The general rule of thumb is high int = better threat identification, planning, strategy
high wis = better threat analysis, instincts, tactics

So a high int low wis creature may have an excellent ambush planned, but they are prone to retreating too early or too late. A high wis low int creature may just attack the weakest looking party member, but recognise opportunities or when to retreat very well. The blog writer also takes into account the lore of the creatures in addition to stats, so for example a Death Knight will recognise when it is hopelessly outmatched but will fight to the end anyways because it's a an ex-Paladin. He also stresses the important point that critters should only act on the information they have, not what information the DM has.

E.g. a cultist leader is going to target the person that looks like a spellcaster first. If that spellcaster is just a barbarian wearing loose robes, that's working exactly as intended. If a neothelid confuses a sorcerer for a wizard, working exactly as intended. If a lich spies on the party as they venture through the dungeon, it makes sense if the lich takes active countermeasures on tactics the party has used

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 09, 2020, 04:16:54 pm

Yo, now I want to play as a barbarian all dressed up in wizard robes, with a greataxe disguised as an arcane focus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 09, 2020, 04:19:15 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 09, 2020, 04:16:54 pm

Yo, now I want to play as a barbarian all dressed up in wizard robes, with a greataxe disguised as an arcane focus.

And take the mage initiate and ritual caster feats so they can cast loadsa magic and make a name for themselves as a magic user

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 09, 2020, 04:25:47 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 09, 2020, 04:16:54 pm

Yo, now I want to play as a barbarian all dressed up in wizard robes, with a greataxe disguised as an arcane focus.

Just go the Gandalf quarterstaff route and whack headsamole

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on July 09, 2020, 04:44:59 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 09, 2020, 04:16:54 pm

Yo, now I want to play as a barbarian all dressed up in wizard robes, with a greataxe disguised as an arcane focus.

I'll just leave this here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?195049-Help-Me-Be-Annoying-with-a-Barbarian-Wizard)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 09, 2020, 05:10:02 pm

Given the earlier discussion of fighting dirty and combat-as-war, I was more thinking of a sneaky bastard clever barbarian rather than your typical deluded Lethal Joke character. They know full well that they're a marial warrior, not a spellcaster. They just disguise themselves as a spellcaster for a tactical advantage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 09, 2020, 05:44:46 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 09, 2020, 05:10:02 pm

Given the earlier discussion of fighting dirty and combat-as-war, I was more thinking of a sneaky bastard clever barbarian rather than your typical deluded Lethal Joke character. They know full well that they're a marial warrior, not a spellcaster. They just disguise themselves as a spellcaster for a tactical advantage.

Wild Soul barbarian would be very convincing as a wizard, given the sheer potential to throw out loads of wild magic and pretend it was all intentional. Otherwise I think ritual caster / mage initiate are the ways to go, or even just proficiency in using arcana to utilise magic tools and scrolls to provide enough convincing evidence that your barbarian, is in fact a squishy wizard. Wizard robes and hat won't discount unarmoured defence, so it all works out exceptionally well. As for weapons, warhammer, club, sword, spear - I think all of these things could be wizardly weapons

*EDIT
Completely forgot some racial backgrounds would allow for a casting of a few cantrips too. Elf barbarian would be neato for example

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 09, 2020, 06:44:09 pm

How many times does a wizard have to get specifically targetted first before they start wearing plastic armor and illusion their wand into a sword?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 07:32:32 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on July 09, 2020, 03:38:43 pm

Re: enemies using guerilla tactics.

There's theory on whether combat in roleplaying games should be run by the philosophy of sport or of war.

Combat-as-sport is the self-contained room with set number of level-appropriate monsters that might sometimes fight intelligently, but never "unfairly". The player characters are expected to return the favour with kick-in-the-door tactics and direct combat. Kill the one healing the others first. Have the paladin force the tough one into a duel while the rest of the party deals with the flunkies. Cast your own Fly spell to negate the enemy's advantage from the same.

Combat-as-war is the dungeon as a whole built as a defensible fortress designed to kill intruders with maximal efficiency and minimal defender casualties. If faced in direct combat, the player characters are extremely likely to fall. Instead, they are expected to play just as dirty. Build a huge bonfire and flood the dungeon with smoke, choke the kobolds out. Poison the trees with Agent Orange to leave the drop bears with nowhere to hide. Ambush the enemy's camp and destroy their food supply with a long-range Fireball, then get out before they can react.

There isn't a right or wrong way to play a roleplaying game, but it's essential to have everyone on the same page about what sort of combat is expected in the campaign. The philosophies are tools: combat-as-sport easily creates a classic fantasy story of good and evil in honourable direct conflict, while combat-as-war leaves things ambiguous in its verisimilitude. How can you be sure your opponent is evil if all you know of them is artillery targeting data?

I prefer combat as war, though it doesn't always imply a heavily defended and organized occupation, monster zoos can work with it fine as well, just using random encounter tables to simulate roaming enemies instead of moving them around the map on your side of the screen.  But yes, I like when my players use unconventional tactics against monsters.  It's awkward in modern games where all the XP comes from killing shit; is using one illusion spell to lure the enemy into a trap and killing him really worth his full XP?  Hmmm?  I dunno?  But in old school 90% of the XP comes from treasure recovered, so it perfectly supports and even encourages being unconventional.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 09, 2020, 09:11:07 pm

I take monster XP for defeat rather than kill.

If they scare them off, trick them into a pit, or get them a part time job and a new lease on life, they've earned the XP.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 09, 2020, 09:27:25 pm

Yeah, XP isn't some magic energy that pops out of dead creatures. It's a representation of your group's tactics succeeding and thereby becoming more experienced at their roles.

In my current game, I've done away with XP for kills completely. Instead, my players gain 1 XP per successful mission. Every 3 XP they gain a level. And instead of loot defining their character wealth, they receive a set amount of gold per mission equal to 1/3 WBL. However, any loot found during a mission can be used for the duration before they turn it in as part of their success.

I've found this creates a happy balance, where all characters get equal shares of the rewards, and there's no arguments over whether an encounter should reward XP or not. It also avoids situations where only a few people in the group get XP, meaning some might be over-leveled.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 09, 2020, 10:21:55 pm

Quote from: delphonso on July 09, 2020, 09:11:07 pm

I take monster XP for defeat rather than kill.

If they scare them off, trick them into a pit, or get them a part time job and a new lease on life, they've earned the XP.

This is the default for 5e. Not sure about other other systems though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 09, 2020, 10:34:46 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on July 09, 2020, 09:27:25 pm

Yeah, XP isn't some magic energy that pops out of dead creatures.

[Stares in Minecraft]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 10, 2020, 12:15:34 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 07:32:32 pm

monster zoo

When you think you've found a secret back entrance to the wizard's dwelling but all you found was the backmost fire escape door to his monster zoo

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 10, 2020, 04:47:48 am

I gotta add a monster zoo to a new campaign...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 10, 2020, 04:53:58 am

First when they enter the fire exit have them encounter a small maintenance room with a magical door switch labelled "open all" (or perhaps "release all" may be more appropriate English?). This opens the door to the next room, of course. But it also opens all the cages/exhibits. OSHA rules are very important!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 10, 2020, 05:01:17 am

The zoo includes a section full of cubes, jellies, and rust monsters which are totally passive after years as petting zoo attractions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 10, 2020, 06:16:45 am

How do you guys determine the personalities of your characters? I've been testing out a new method by liberally exploiting Dwarf Fortress's personality traits & comparing them to the background and skills of my character, and I'm liking the results so far

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 10, 2020, 09:43:02 am

I never write more than three sentences for my character's starting description, including backstory, and flesh it out based on how I end up playing him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on July 10, 2020, 01:01:37 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on July 09, 2020, 07:32:32 pm

is using one illusion spell to lure the enemy into a trap and killing him really worth his full XP?  Hmmm?  I dunno?  But in old school 90% of the XP comes from treasure recovered, so it perfectly supports and even encourages being unconventional.

Anyone know which edition(s) they removed that in? I know it was gone by AD&D 2nd edition, but there were 5 editions before that.

Treasure=xp is weird, but if you only get xp for killing, the game becomes exclusively about killing, even when there is no good reason to kill someone/something.

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 10, 2020, 06:16:45 am

How do you guys determine the personalities of your characters?

I usually play Shadowrun, where there is a lot more choices/information involved with your characters. Asking "why" to even a few of those choices starts making it obvious who they are. How I play them and how they react in game informs it somewhat as well.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 10, 2020, 04:40:42 pm

I think it was at least present in all the editions predating that.  It's strange if you're used to other forms of XP but it suits the old school method.  We all know about chainmail, and the earliest forms of dungeon-crawling D&D were a process for building wealth and property and a nice context for the eventual wargames.  There was story of course and a lot of the famous names that fly around (robilar, tenser, bigby, mordenkainen, etc.) were originally PCs in those first games, but it was a game first and foremost and player skill was more important than IC knowledge.  In that context it makes more sense.  XP for gold lends itself to a more sword and sorcery mindset, the dungeon is dangerous and vanquishing all the enemies isn't guaranteed or even desirable.  Speed, cleverness, and fighting only as a last resort.

It's also fun watching your players turn into dungeon locusts.  Once they get into the mindset they'll strip the dungeon bare of anything shiny.  Rip doors off their hinges and drag them out of the dungeon if they've got interesting engravings, tear tapestries down, peel the goldleaf off the evil throne.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 10, 2020, 04:44:05 pm

My party once tried to do that and accidentally on purpose burst the ceiling of the dungeon, above which was a mountain river.

We didn't get paid for that job.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 10, 2020, 06:36:53 pm

On character:
I think most of us actually learn a character by playing. In the time before the first session, I generally imagine how my PC would interact with the other PCs and get a good grasp from there about how I want to play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 10, 2020, 08:49:03 pm

I usually try to ask myself: Why is this character adventuring? Why are they risking life and limb against monsters and traps instead of settling down and opening a tavern?

Usually it's enough to flesh out an outline of a goal. One of my more memorable characters was adventuring because he planned to exploit his party members to protect himself against a summoning ritual he'd botched in the past, calling forth a demon hungering for his soul. Thus, his life was devoted to supporting and strengthening his team as much as possible so that, when the demon did track him down, he'd have several large meat-shields between it and himself, giving him enough time to run away if nothing else.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 11, 2020, 04:04:07 am

Step 1: Develop gimmick

Step 2: Work backwards and try to find some sort of explanation for gimmick

Step 3: ???

Step 4: Profit!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 14, 2020, 05:41:52 pm

Quote from: Kagus on July 11, 2020, 04:04:07 am

Step 1: Develop gimmick

Step 2: Work backwards and try to find some sort of explanation for gimmick

Step 3: ???

Step 4: Profit!

I'm really tempted to make for my next DM's campaign an artificer that is secretly 5 fairies piloting an 8ft tall armour suit. Tell the other players that they're just a blessed Knight who's sworn an oath to never doff their armour. Currently I'm playing an Elf that's pretending to be a Dwarf who's become best friends with the party's only human - who has consistently *almost* seen through their really poor disguise

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 14, 2020, 06:27:06 pm

One of my favorite parts of my group's brief Shadowrun foray was the Elf Poser flaw.  I don't even remember if I took karma for it.  There were potential downsides in that our Decker was a true elf, but my Adept character specialized in disguises and the Decker was flighty and easily distracted (also a hilariously bad at computers, but it was our first foray).  They were *heavily* into body modding, too, which I think gave my character an extra tinge of jealousy/resentment without being able to call them on it.

(Also the Decker was literally a cybernetic porn star as a backstory.  I don't remember what gender they identified as, I'm *pretty sure* it fluctuated from scene to scene.  It's possible they weren't good at shadowrunning and it's so unfortunate that they got left behind as we fled the final scene.  (Not actually my character's fault - the Rigger was trying to leave *all* of us high and dry, but I managed to get into the van as he tried to get it past the response teams.  He wanted my share but also didn't want to replace his van, so we split the winnings.  (Also he was literally a housepet sneaking onto his owner's computer, miles from anything that happened))).

I did take a somewhat-inhibiting addiction to VR chips.  Body dysmorphia, huh.

My character: (http://cs6.pikabu.ru/images/previews_comm/2015-01_1/14203664199334.jpg)
I wish I could take credit for the image, but I am still proud of naming him L-rand.  Because forced references are the best jokes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 14, 2020, 06:32:12 pm

I always liked the lore detail about how Elf Posers are universally disdained unless they can actually succeed in hiding it, but that Ork Posers are accepted in rare instances.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 18, 2020, 02:32:32 pm

Right... I realize that replying to the actual thread will have no positive effect and will just be wasting mine and everyone else's time, but I feel a mighty need to rant about this nonsense so I'm bringing it to you.

I occasionally browse another forum, and one of the boards there is DnD-related. Some fellow just posted a thread in there and I am having a hard time wrapping my head around all the compound wrongness that exists within this microcosm of fuckery.

Let's start with the original post, shall we?

Spoiler: Gently tossed word salad (click to show/hide)

The Wheels started turning in my head earlier and the idea hit me, you guys probably know about my Mithril Moths and if not look them up on DND Beyond, the thing here is just how tough would a LARGE nest of these beasties be against a party of Lv20 players?
By a large nest I mean between 5 and 10 small nests leading to a Big one with each small nest having between 25 and 50 Workers, between 5 and 30 Soldiers and 1 to 5 Queens and the big one having between 50 to 100 workers, 25 to 40 Soldiers and 3 to 7 Queens.
As for the Lv20 Party it'd be a group of 6, but here's the question, even with 5 to 10 sessions ranging from 2 hours to 6 hours could they manage to wipe out the moths without needing fresh meat from time to time?
Also if they couldn't do it with just 6 which Raid Party type would be the more optimal option in a DND setting, Full Raid Party of 4 regular parties working in tandem or a Legion Raid of 10 or more parties working together to back up the Lv20's?
That's the question that's been in my head.

All the above said I recognise what I'm asking and I realise fully the DMing nightmare it'd be even with sub DM's working under the main DM to manage the smaller battles while the main DM runs things and covers the DMing of the fight for the Lv20's but the question still remains, could the moths prove to be such a menace that such a method of taking out a large nest would be needed?

What are everyone's thoughts?

Now, if you're one of those obviously vanishingly rare individuals who hasn't already heard of his fantastically awful homebrew creatures, here (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/729470-mithril-moth-worker) are (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/728889-mithril-moth-soldier) the links (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/727837-mithril-moth-queen). Yes, three links, because it's three different pages and just searching DnDBeyond for "Mithril Moth" gives you fuckall.


I just... I don't...

So, the critters are obviously completed fucked in and of themselves. They're nowhere near that CR, the Large and Huge types use the exact same reach and damage dice as the Medium ones, the "Swarm Brutality" ability makes no goddamn sense and is also a flat DC17 (for the monster) insta permakill, what the fuck is going on with the queen's summoning feedback loop ability, and what even is a "swarm of" workers/soldiers?!???!?

They're ludicrously beefy when taking their size and numbers into account, and the summoning loop can potentially just result in a world-ending dogpile.

...but they're also almost purely physical damage, have horrible mental stats, and no condition/damage immunities. And they're Beasts.  A level 20 character has lots of options for being able to survive something like that. Like, depending on how you choose to interpret that Brutality bullshit, a Zealot Barbarian would be flat out unkillable no matter how many of the moths there are.

As such, it's both way overpowered for anyone, and also underpowered for level 20.


I've been staring at this mess for entirely too long now in an attempt to even grasp the full wrongness of it all, and all I've done is make my head hurt. I've thus opted to inflict it on all of you instead.

Enjoy.


Side note: English is allegedly this genius's native tongue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 18, 2020, 04:15:27 pm

I have a feeling the author doesn't know what a Legendary Action is. As written, a swarm of Soldiers could defeat even a 20th level party if they do well in initiative, simply because they can all pile in and attempt the instakill move as soon as one of them succeeds in a grapple. They likely have advantage in the grapple check (as long as they do it directly and not via the bite attack), too, since they can restrain the entire party as a reaction (which calls for checks and not saves so even a high-level character only has about even chances to dodge it).

Most summoning abilities specify that summoned creatures can't summon further, but that doesn't matter since it's a Legendary Action the non-summoned Queen can do several times per round.

A zealot barbarian would indeed be the answer, being completely unkillable until they've been whittled down to 0 HP and their rage ends (as the moths can't grapple a level 20 barbarian even with a nat 20).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mini on July 18, 2020, 08:36:34 pm

The "legendary action" requires the target to hit 0 hp, so it's not an instakill, just makes every down be a kill. Still an awful ability, not really a legendary action, and I'm not even going to get into the rest of their abilities.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 18, 2020, 09:00:26 pm

The soldier "legendary action" is fucked, but even with removing that, the DM could just make the enemies attack downed foes and give them failed saves, considering the numbers this guy is throwing out, that shouldn't be an issue.

If I'm understanding this guy correctly, let's imagine the fight for a moment.

6 PCs vs. "between 50 to 100 workers, 25 to 40 Soldiers and 3 to 7 Queens."

Queens have an ability that means workers and soldiers take hits for her. As written, that means you need to kill off all the workers and soldiers before you can stop the queen. The queen can summon between 3-10 (10% chance of zero) units per legendary action, of which she could have 6 per round. Players would need to be killing an average of 10 units per turn to be making progress in this fight, if you only allow one queen to have legendary actions. If all of them can take legendary actions - that's potentially 70 new units per player turn, possibly including a queen, up to 420 new units in a round. Low estimate is still over 100 per round.

That sounds exceptionally not fun.

Also, I think the recharge thing is written wrong.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 18, 2020, 09:38:30 pm

Recharge is definitely written wrong as its based on a d6, so a Recharge 8 or 15 doesn't work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 19, 2020, 06:46:28 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on July 18, 2020, 04:15:27 pm

A zealot barbarian would indeed be the answer, being completely unkillable until they've been whittled down to 0 HP and their rage ends (as the moths can't grapple a level 20 barbarian even with a nat 20).

Ah, but that's the beauty of it... Barbarians get unlimited rages per day at level 20. So the rage never ends since you can always just extend it.

The grappling is a bit odd, since the trailer on the moth bite attack requires the player to make a DC13 (14 on the queen for some reason, but nothing else) "Strength Check".

This would infer that it's a straight ability check rather than a Strength(Athletics) check as with most grappling contests. It's also not a saving throw. This means (if I'm correct in believing you can't add proficiency bonus to straight ability checks) it would still theoretically be possible for it to affect the barbarian. They'd just need to roll 5 or lower twice in a row (due to rage advantage).

If you do get to add proficiency, then yeah... Only way they'd be able to get ya is with making an actual grapple attack and getting obscenely lucky with all the rolls. Then once they've got hold of you it's pretty much curtains, since being 0hp seems to be the only requirement (never mind the fact that Zealots are still perfectly fighting fit at that point), and your own physical prowess or stature is completely irrelevant to the DC17 strength check that THEY make.


But yeah. There's a lot to unpack here.

Anyways, have some more discussion salad from the same fellow:

Spoiler: The illusory trap of... What? (click to show/hide)

Here's another clever idea I had for a trap, the party is walking around somewhere when suddenly they find themselves at the bottom of individual pit falls that weren't detected by a 10ft pole or any other such method of checking for the pitfall (the pitfall is from illusion magic) and are seemingly 10ft deep, the characters can't climb out or use magic or tools to climb out for some strange reason. (Wisdom save DC12 if anyone catches on to what's going on but if they roll blind without figuring out it's an illusion the DC raises to DC18.)

If deployed it's an option for creatures to attack the captured creatures with Advantage but if attacked and they decide to Roll Wisdom to figure it out they do so with advantage if they're composed but disadvantage if not composed, if they figure it out with or without the Wisdom Roll they gain advantage on the Roll against the Wisdom Save DC.

Any thoughts on this fun idea?

...what does that even mean?




Oh, yes, if anyone's wondering... The creative mastermind behind all this is purportedly 32 years old. So it's not, like, some 10-year-old kid just babbling about stuff going on in his hyperactive imagination.

Someone actually replied to the thread asking for links to the monsters since he was a "newbie" and couldn't find them... OP graciously supplied the links to these "Horrors of Fantasy Mad Science Run amok in all their deadly glory!", and cautioned the neophyte by saying "Try not to have nightmares..."


Yeah. 'Cause it's too late for me, dude.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 19, 2020, 07:00:41 am

So, in essence: Sumdood is bad at game design and should feel bad.

In my current Pathfinder game, my group of intrepid city guards are investigating the death of a wealthy merchant. They've learned that his wife is thirty years younger than him, married him three years ago, and had two husbands die on her before him, though they haven't found out she's sleeping with the gardener yet. Also, they've learned his eunuch butler is a talented alchemist, has a secret shrine to the god of murderers hidden in his room, and appears to have sliced a piece of flesh from the merchant's corpse and placed it on the altar.

I can't wait to introduce the future cast of characters in this murder-mystery scenario. A sleazy tiefling lawyer, a violent drunken sell-sword step-son, a half-orc mobster business rival, a greedy ex-business partner nobleman, and a mysterious one-eyed bravado lurking in the background monitoring the group's investigation. Care to guess who dunnit?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 19, 2020, 07:44:35 am

Is Pitfall a spell that makes the target think they've fallen down a pit when in reality they haven't? Because that would be the best spell. And a great magic trap for a magician's lair.

It seems pretty clear to me though, but it might be because I am fluent in gibberish. You fall down in a pit trap but it's actually just an illusion. You can't climb out because it's an illusion and in reality there's nothing to climb out of. You get to make wisdom checks to figure out that it's an illusion. If the player realises it's an illusion it's DC12 and if not it's DC18 because you want to encourage meta-gaming whenever you can.

The second paragraph means that creatures get advantage to attack the person in the illusion. Then it dissolves into a soup of subject/object confusion and I do not understand who does what, but I think it means that trapped person's get advantage or disadvantage on said Wisdom checks to figure out they're in an illusion depending on whether or not they retain their composure when under attack. However that is decided I don't know.

I am the Gibberling Whisperer

Quote from: Jimmy on July 19, 2020, 07:00:41 am

So, in essence: Sumdood is bad at game design and should feel bad.

In my current Pathfinder game, my group of intrepid city guards are investigating the death of a wealthy merchant. They've learned that his wife is thirty years younger than him, married him three years ago, and had two husbands die on her before him, though they haven't found out she's sleeping with the gardener yet. Also, they've learned his eunuch butler is a talented alchemist, has a secret shrine to the god of murderers hidden in his room, and appears to have sliced a piece of flesh from the merchant's corpse and placed it on the altar.

I can't wait to introduce the future cast of characters in this murder-mystery scenario. A sleazy tiefling lawyer, a violent drunken sell-sword step-son, a half-orc mobster business rival, a greedy ex-business partner nobleman, and a mysterious one-eyed bravado lurking in the background monitoring the group's investigation. Care to guess who dunnit?

I hope it's not that he committed suicide, that is always the worst answer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on July 19, 2020, 12:20:24 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on July 18, 2020, 04:15:27 pm

I have a feeling the author doesn't know what a Legendary Action is. As written, a swarm of Soldiers could defeat even a 20th level party if they do well in initiative, simply because they can all pile in and attempt the instakill move as soon as one of them succeeds in a grapple. They likely have advantage in the grapple check (as long as they do it directly and not via the bite attack), too, since they can restrain the entire party as a reaction (which calls for checks and not saves so even a high-level character only has about even chances to dodge it).

Yeah, 5th ed was designed so that nobody would have rolling an 11+ generally means you succeed, and rolling a 10- generally means you fail. They even advised that a way to speed up the game was to ignore all of the pluses and minuses and just decide what happens based on if they rolled well or not. It's effectively d2; flip a coin when something might happen, and fudge a roll if things are going badly for the players.

Quote from: delphonso on July 18, 2020, 09:00:26 pm

The soldier "legendary action" is fucked, but even with removing that, the DM could just make the enemies attack downed foes and give them failed saves, considering the numbers this guy is throwing out, that shouldn't be an issue.

If I'm understanding this guy correctly, let's imagine the fight for a moment.

6 PCs vs. "between 50 to 100 workers, 25 to 40 Soldiers and 3 to 7 Queens."

Queens have an ability that means workers and soldiers take hits for her. As written, that means you need to kill off all the workers and soldiers before you can stop the queen. The queen can summon between 3-10 (10% chance of zero) units per legendary action, of which she could have 6 per round. Players would need to be killing an average of 10 units per turn to be making progress in this fight, if you only allow one queen to have legendary actions. If all of them can take legendary actions - that's potentially 70 new units per player turn, possibly including a queen, up to 420 new units in a round. Low estimate is still over 100 per round.

That sounds exceptionally not fun.

Also, I think the recharge thing is written wrong.

Well, that is assuming you're fighting them all at once. No single nest should have more than 1 queen, based on how insects function in the world, but even in D&D, you would be hard pressed to justify having 3 together.

Quote from: Kagus on July 19, 2020, 06:46:28 am

Anyways, have some more discussion salad from the same fellow:

Spoiler: The illusory trap of... What? (click to show/hide)

Here's another clever idea I had for a trap, the party is walking around somewhere when suddenly they find themselves at the bottom of individual pit falls that weren't detected by a 10ft pole or any other such method of checking for the pitfall (the pitfall is from illusion magic) and are seemingly 10ft deep, the characters can't climb out or use magic or tools to climb out for some strange reason. (Wisdom save DC12 if anyone catches on to what's going on but if they roll blind without figuring out it's an illusion the DC raises to DC18.)

If deployed it's an option for creatures to attack the captured creatures with Advantage but if attacked and they decide to Roll Wisdom to figure it out they do so with advantage if they're composed but disadvantage if not composed, if they figure it out with or without the Wisdom Roll they gain advantage on the Roll against the Wisdom Save DC.

Any thoughts on this fun idea?

...what does that even mean?

Is he saying they're trapped in a pit trap that doesn't exist, and are attacked at advantage without noticing that they're on the same level as the attackers? That seems to be a "the illusion isn't functioning the way it appears to, and you get another roll, because it's obviously an illusion."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 19, 2020, 01:17:01 pm

have them walk into an illusion pit, then while they're distracted drop em down an actual pit
and then kobolds rapid fire poisoned bolt at them from above

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 22, 2020, 09:28:12 am

So, I'm gearing up for a Roll20 game with a few peeps. We're still in the preliminary phases of just figuring out our characters and I don't think we've even come to a good agreement on what timeslot we'll be playing.

We're a fairly newbie gang in one way or another... I devour books and pick apart rules and mechanics, but I've never done a 5E game before in practice. We have a few players who have been in games before, but aren't particularly clear on how rules and mechanics work. And then we have one who has never played or read the books, but just wanted to try it out.

The new-new chick wanted to be a healer, and has thus rolled up a Nature cleric who is styling her entire character around weed. That's her healing mechanic; "The godly good herb". I was helping her pick out spells, and joked about styling Healing Word as her just vaping a cloud on someone. Yes, she's a bit of a stoner. Yes, it's weed humor all the way down.

Alright, cool, she's probably not going to stand in the limelight and smear herself over everything to the point where constant weed references get really grating. Can live with that.

Personally, I saw that the other characters people were talking about making didn't seem to have much that covered the detection/disarming of traps or the opening of locks. Decided that I should probably fill in that role. A random free-flying pun struck my brainwaves, and I'm now basing an entire character off of the concept of a "Department of Gnomeland Security". Very inspired, as I'm sure you can guess.


...and then we have one of the other players. He's been in games a couple times before. I've talked with him about cleric domain choices/builds, after I overheard him talking about the build he was planning; a build which would've been impossible unless the DM had specifically houseruled the Bonus Action Spell rule away (he hadn't).

For this game, he enthusiastically announced that he was going to play a bard.  Like, Bard Classic™, the kind that memes are made of.

A halfling bard, to be exact. Okay.

Chaotic Neutral. Oh boy.

"I want to be a little mischievous this game"

"My character will be the very embodiment of Id"

"Thrill-seeker"

---

Brothers... I have The Fear.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 22, 2020, 10:04:13 am

Does he realise the bard jokes are not jokes because people find the joke-bard funny?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 22, 2020, 10:33:19 am

Quote from: scriver on July 22, 2020, 10:04:13 am

Does he realise the bard jokes are not jokes because people find the joke-bard funny?

It's getting better.

He's just stated that from the looks of it, all the other characters are "nerds", so his character will "definitely feel that they need him to spread their legend around", since the concept he's going with is the "unreliable narrator" role of someone who wants to write an autobiographical epic. "Think Watson mixed with Gilderoy Lockhart", and "as a Chaotic Neutral, he'll definitely think of himself as the best and most important so he will probably be really cheeky and introduce the party to others as '[Bardname] and His Band of Idiots'"


EDIT: Okay, I voiced some concerns and he might be toning it down a bit, he says he just got excited. That gives me hope!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 22, 2020, 11:24:25 am

Pathological narcissist sounds pretty fun for bard, I'd say. A better twist on the cliche "sex the problem away", at least.

A buddy of mine is obsessed with the Gloom Stalker class. I'm trying to find synergies with other classes. Darkness doesn't work since no one can see through it. Is there a good way to get surprised condition on people?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on July 22, 2020, 12:56:25 pm

Quote from: delphonso on July 22, 2020, 11:24:25 am

A buddy of mine is obsessed with the Gloom Stalker class. I'm trying to find synergies with other classes. Darkness doesn't work since no one can see through it. Is there a good way to get surprised condition on people?

It's not technically a condition, but the standard rule to surprise is to initiate combat without your enemy being aware of you, which is generally a contested check of Dexterity(Stealth) versus Wisdom(Perception). After a surprise round, a creature is on guard and can't be surprised again (though you can still use the Hide action to momentarily disappear and gain advantage for attacking from outside your enemy's sight).

Darkness does work if you're willing to dip two levels into Warlock and pick up the Devil's Sight invocation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 22, 2020, 01:33:35 pm

Quote from: Kagus on July 22, 2020, 10:33:19 am

Quote from: scriver on July 22, 2020, 10:04:13 am

Does he realise the bard jokes are not jokes because people find the joke-bard funny?

It's getting better.

He's just stated that from the looks of it, all the other characters are "nerds", so his character will "definitely feel that they need him to spread their legend around", since the concept he's going with is the "unreliable narrator" role of someone who wants to write an autobiographical epic. "Think Watson mixed with Gilderoy Lockhart", and "as a Chaotic Neutral, he'll definitely think of himself as the best and most important so he will probably be really cheeky and introduce the party to others as '[Bardname] and His Band of Idiots'"


EDIT: Okay, I voiced some concerns and he might be toning it down a bit, he says he just got excited. That gives me hope!

I'm hoping for updates ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 24, 2020, 12:17:42 am

This DND story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ6oNlZJXL0), while narrated very well, upset me quite a bit.  I want to go into more detail but I don't want to poison the well.  I will say that the title, "Narrated D&D Story: Assassin Makes The Paladin Question His Morals With A Single Phrase" is total clickbait.  If only because the assassin is... verbose.  Still, I was so incensed over the conversation (two days ago!) that I considered making a video response (no longer a thing) and it just stuck in my craw.

I'm curious what other people think.  It's so weird how Youtube hasn't introduced a comment system, seems like that'd be a great place for discourse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: ZBridges on July 24, 2020, 12:22:07 am

YouTube actually does have a comment system, but it's easy to miss.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 24, 2020, 01:00:07 am

AllThingsDnD's voice is like nails on a chalk-board to me, not sure why exactly but it made this more difficult to listen to. Note: Paladin is a female in the story, but the title uses "his" for some reason - also clickbait is a generous term, the Paladin doesn't reconsider her morals.

You're not missing much in the comments - mostly talking about how Paladins suck and people quoting their own edge-lord assassins.

Spoiler: Content from the video, as far as I could understand it (click to show/hide)

I guess the "one line" is the bit about gold for goblin ears.
The assassin's argument seems to be the following:
An assassin will kill for the right price.
An assassin won't kill people who are trusted or part of their group, so they won't "just kill anyone". (This point is muddled)
The paladin killed goblins in exchange for gold.
Therefore the paladin is the same as an assassin.

The assassin has a secret letter, which would seem to say that the goblins were more than just monsters. But somehow that line is supposed to convince us that the paladin (who acted unknowingly) is worse than the assassin (who either killed the goblins fully aware of their plans for peace, or hid that information after getting it afterward.)

Really, going by the information only presented in this video, the assassin's moral high ground is "I kill people and I feel bad about it, so it's okay. My motivation is money." While the paladin is saying "Everyone I kill deserved to be killed. My motivation is justice." While, in actuality, both of their motivations are money, so the assassin is in better moral standing for feeling guilt.

If we can live with morality being subjective, the paladin believed she was doing the right thing, while the assassin believed they were doing the wrong thing for money. The paladin, then is the "better person" of the two.

If morality is objective, the paladin and the assassin both did evil deeds by killing undeserving goblins. Neither gets a win here.

Personally, I'd say that the paladin is morally justified in killing the goblins if she was under the impression that they had been harming the village for years. She is less justified in being antagonistic to the assassin, as the assassin has shown (apparently) nothing but commitment to the party. The paladin's true moral dilemma would be when the assassin shows her the letter - where she then needs to decide if she was still justified or needs to seek out redemption for that misdeed.

The assassin, on the other hand, is withholding that information from the paladin. Presenting the idea as hypothetical instead of just stating it outright or revealing the proof robs the paladin of the opportunity to reassess their actions, and in doing so, leaves the door open for the paladin to continue to perform injustices on an objective level.

But lets be real - these are DnD players. Their motivations for murder are loot, gold, and XP. Neither of them have any moral integrity. Also, goblins are intelligent but people kill them like rats and that's fucked up no matter what.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 24, 2020, 03:32:49 am

And then you have people like me, who try to build assassadins because sneak attack smite criticals are pretty juicy  :P

I take the moral high ground, for the right price...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on July 24, 2020, 08:10:11 am

Anyone listen to the System Mastery podcast? They're less entertaining than they think they are (I did say podcast, right?), but they have some decent ideas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 27, 2020, 03:55:44 am

Can't believe it's taken me this long to realize this, but...

Quote from: Wild Shape

You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.

That should mean that gnomish druids would retain their advantage on mental saving throws vs. magic, right? And since you keep your mental attribute scores, but replace your physical ones with those of the beast... Seems pretty snazzy!

Quote from: Iduno on July 24, 2020, 08:10:11 am

Anyone listen to the System Mastery podcast? They're less entertaining than they think they are (I did say podcast, right?), but they have some decent ideas.

Can't say I'm familiar, no... I'm not generally much of a podcast person in general, however. What kinds of decent ideas?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on July 27, 2020, 07:08:15 am

To be a gnomish druid though you'd have to be a gnome, which is unacceptable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 27, 2020, 07:12:09 am

haha funny smoll hat people

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 27, 2020, 08:07:21 am

Forest gnome druids are cool

It's called DgnD after all

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 27, 2020, 08:22:51 am

Dungnomes and Dragnomes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 27, 2020, 09:10:00 am

I once added a magic belt of +6 to all stats in my home game, with an inscription on the inside that read "Property of the great gnome Anne, hands off!"

Of course, it was a cursed belt of opposite gender.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 27, 2020, 09:23:28 am

This is the gnome ann's land.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 27, 2020, 09:33:57 am

One of the players asked for a Knowledge roll to see if they could identify the great gnome Anne.

I told them she was a master Transmuter Wizard, renowned for her advances in spellcraft and discoveries. However, what was to be her greatest work ever ended in disaster, as during a complex transmutation ritual she inadvertently transformed herself into a massive stone monolith that crashed into the ocean, becoming a new feature among local sailors.

Alas, gnome Anne is an island.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 27, 2020, 10:08:22 am

Quote from: Jimmy on July 27, 2020, 09:33:57 am

One of the players asked for a Knowledge roll to see if they could identify the great gnome Anne.

I told them she was a master Transmuter Wizard, renowned for her advances in spellcraft and discoveries. However, what was to be her greatest work ever ended in disaster, as during a complex transmutation ritual she inadvertently transformed herself into a massive stone monolith that crashed into the ocean, becoming a new feature among local sailors.

Alas, gnome Anne is an island.

hhhhhhh okay you win, that's good.

I don't think my group included a gnomes since we left 3.5, but that advantage on magic saving throws looks pretty handy.  It's still a little weird how they aren't at all weaker than other races, but 5e race templates all focus on bonuses rather than maluses so it evens out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 27, 2020, 10:28:11 am

Well, halflings and gnomes can't use Heavy weapons as well due to being Small, and maximum carrying capacity has size as a factor. Those aren't huge deals though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 27, 2020, 10:51:40 am

They can use heavy weapons they just have disadvantage when they do. Which can lead to some fun builds with barbarian gnomes/halflings recklessly attacking for a straight roll with a greataxe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 27, 2020, 10:56:01 am

Yeah but you could use a longsword or something and just get advantage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 27, 2020, 11:17:52 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 27, 2020, 10:56:01 am

Yeah but you could use a longsword or something and just get advantage.

Which isn't a heavy weapon however, meaning it cannot be used with GWM

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 27, 2020, 11:21:30 am

Well, I'd say that GWM is probably not a feat you want to take on your Small characters, then!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 27, 2020, 11:48:59 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 27, 2020, 10:56:01 am

Yeah but you could use a longsword or something and just get advantage.

Which is why I said fun, not optimal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 27, 2020, 02:40:06 pm

Oh man, one of my friends first-time DM'd. They intentionally told us all different versions of what the campaign was going to be, with the end result being they broke a cardinal rule of DMing; make sure you're running the same campaign as your players.

Needless to say I wasn't very amused when my wholesome non-combat character, made for a wholesome social campaign - who had not killed a single thing in three campaigns, was pitted against the God of Pestilence.

Our Dwarf barbarian is on 3 HP in a flimsy marketplace, 60ft away from the nearest party member. Our wholesome human bard is on 3 HP and has her face disfigured. My character, an elf rogue/cleric is outside a museum. The museum's front doors were broken by the God of Pestilence, and it is on fire after my character set a perfume fire to try and escape the God of Pestilence. I have 33 HP, and am standing next to the human bard. We are standing outside during a blowout (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qCvp5mo4Zo), which is a death sentence. The nearest intact building is 120ft away, however it is a residential area. If we are capable of surviving two rounds in a blowout, and the front door is not locked, there is a high likelihood the house is full of plant-horrors, things that used to be the people of the city.

Our only hope is a fourth player, who managed to avoid the infinite goblinsing (everywhere we went there was a horde of goblins) and God of Pestilence altogether, riding in on horseback to save us. He's got 12 seconds to find us and bring us to safety though, so it's not happening. Our DM thought we were being too dark by preparing our speeches for a last stand, and said there was so much we could do.

When the blowout triggers, portals open up to other planes from which these otherworldly horrors emerge. The God of Pestilence was only one of them. The blowout comes complete with environmental damage, and at the end of the blowout things emerge to grapple anyone outside, followed by people turning into plant horrors if the DM hasn't already described their suicide.

Afterwards the DM and I had a lengthy discussion. The DM kept saying things like "it was obvious it was a death God" - bearing in mind the only reason I knew it was a God at all was because I metagamed when the DM asked if any of our lvl 5-6 characters had more than 20 CON, and knew he had sicked a CR26 creature on us, and that "there was so much you could do," with his "obvious solution" of standing on a pedestal to defeat something that auto-hit us just by being in proximity, moved twice as fast as us and had unknown capabilities. Twice I had to rules lawyer like an absolute disgusting bastard just to stop the God of Pestilence killing my teammate twice (it "demonstrated" new abilities to get around the traps I and the bard set. I use the word "demonstrated" lightly because I'm sure the DM just kept making up rules so we couldn't avoid the God any way other than the way he wanted).

I've got a lot of work to write up but I'm gonna do a full writeup of this horror story if anyone's interested. Jesus what a nightmare

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 29, 2020, 07:54:16 am

Horrors aside, does anyone have any ideas for tense music that has a climactic buildup (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwiX4X61gNE) to a cathartic crescendo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTNIDQxQiXo), and music that is nostalgically (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkNglBb4cyY) fond yet melancholic? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viDKam_hmGM) Trying to pad my playlists for players

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 29, 2020, 05:01:47 pm

I don't have much success timing events in the game to a soundtrack, since I tend not to micromanage my players' time to the point that I could accomplish this to any decent effect. Instead, I usually make a lengthy playlist composed of lengthy playlists like this  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiwuQ6UHMQg)that serve for appropriate ambient music in the back of the room but don't distract from the game itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 30, 2020, 06:50:49 am

The song from 28 days later maybe?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MCreeper on July 31, 2020, 02:12:32 pm

Was considering getting in D&D. Is what i see at first pages of roll20 search representative of my general chances of finding text game of D&D? If nothing else, i'm sure that my spoke english will at least produce some ouches from other players. And i somehow got an allergy to my first language. Totally.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on July 31, 2020, 06:04:22 pm

I mean, you could play D&D by text, totally. And if that's your preferred medium, don't let it stop you from pursuing that.

However, the game is honestly about the social interaction you get with the other players, at least for me. One of my favorite ways of describing D&D to outsiders is that it's a game of collaborative storytelling using dice to decide the random bits. It's not like a video game, with either a single-player experience moving through a static set-piece, or a competition against the other players. Your fellow players and GM are your allies in creating a story for all of your characters.

So if you're not able to smoothly interact with your fellow players, it will subtract some of the joy from the game. I would encourage you to consider seeking out a game in your preferred language just to try it out. You might be surprised how open and accepting your group is!

D&D has historically caught a lot of criticism from the far-right as being influenced by satanic forces and looked down on as being a game for social outcasts. Ironically, this has resulted in the game attracting and supporting a large variety of gender spectrums, religious groups, disabilities, races and peoples of colour, welcoming differences at the gaming table. Really, who cares if you've got slightly darker skin or speak with an accent when you're everything from an elven wizard slinging fireballs to a dwarf swinging a battleaxe?

Anyway, enough ranting. I hope you find a group you enjoy! Also, I highly recommend gaming regularly with the same people. My game group's been together for about seven years now, and people have come and gone, but we've made tons of great memories at the table in that time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 31, 2020, 06:40:49 pm

Yeah, I'll echo the play by text thing. I'd recommend simpler systems for playing RPGs on a board. DnD thrives when it's at a table, and does okay with just voice.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on July 31, 2020, 11:21:18 pm

The beauty of text play (play-by-post, especially)... it gives you the time to write stuff out. Time to plan, time to pontificate-- sharper tatics, richer prose! Not so great for social interplay and suchlike, but lovely for storytelling.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 01, 2020, 01:27:54 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 27, 2020, 02:40:06 pm

Oh man, one of my friends first-time DM'd. They intentionally told us all different versions of what the campaign was going to be, with the end result being they broke a cardinal rule of DMing; make sure you're running the same campaign as your players.

Yeah, having puzzles with *a* solution that they assume players will pick up on is a common issue with first-time GMs and also frequently professional scenario writers. Which is not only not fun to play, it's also a bit more work for less entertainment value for the GM.

1) The players don't show up to hear the GM tell a story they wrote, they want to contribute.
2) Why would the GM show up to listen to themselves tell a story they already know? Much more fun to set up a simple situation, and change it slightly (an office building you work in, except you're sneaking in and the stairway collapsed, etc.).

Quote from: Jimmy on July 31, 2020, 06:04:22 pm

D&D has historically caught a lot of criticism from the far-right as being influenced by satanic forces and looked down on as being a game for social outcasts. Ironically, this has resulted in the game attracting and supporting a large variety of gender spectrums, religious groups, disabilities, races and peoples of colour, welcoming differences at the gaming table. Really, who cares if you've got slightly darker skin or speak with an accent when you're everything from an elven wizard slinging fireballs to a dwarf swinging a battleaxe?

And then, they did what the far right usually does to shut down countercultures, and took over the creation of it (not just D&D. I can't think of a non-terrible company currently making TTRPGs).


Edit: I've also been thinking about AD&D's weird 18/% strength thing, where certain classes got an improved strength rating at 18, with bonuses to the things you'd normally get from strength. It at least allowed fighters to be good at the one thing they did. And also the wizard spell (5th spell level ish?) that turns you into a fighter for a while, with full strength bonus etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 01, 2020, 02:27:07 pm

I liked how in 1e the only benefit to playing a dwarf was that you had an instinctive ability to detect a subtle incline plane, used to defeat what was apparently a common DM trap at the time of tricking the players into going to a deeper level then they thought they were on, which would then "allow" the DM to use stronger monsters. Weird stuff, the 1e culture.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 01, 2020, 04:21:48 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on August 01, 2020, 02:27:07 pm

I liked how in 1e the only benefit to playing a dwarf was that you had an instinctive ability to detect a subtle incline plane, used to defeat what was apparently a common DM trap at the time of tricking the players into going to a deeper level then they thought they were on, which would then "allow" the DM to use stronger monsters. Weird stuff, the 1e culture.

A bit more than that.  You could identify relatively new tunnel/stonework, find shifting rooms or walls, traps involving stonework (pits and I guess falling stones to block doors), and what cardinal direction you are heading underground.

Although gnomes also get that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 01, 2020, 07:11:37 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/4qjwEN0.png)

Finally decided to expose the world to my shitty art skills, behold! The goose, swan and duck. Followed closely by their powered up undead champion forms, the poultergoose, the black swan and the duch. Haven't decided on the rules yet, but in general I want the poultergoose to be able to steal player items, the black swan to break player arms and the duch to summon bread golems and undead shrimp

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 01, 2020, 07:49:42 pm

Poultergoose? Poultrygeist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 02, 2020, 03:10:20 am

The players are having a good session and you are a horrible goose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 02, 2020, 05:40:48 am

That may be true, but no one may ever call me a quack

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 01, 2020, 07:49:42 pm

Poultergoose? Poultrygeist.

Poultryghast?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 02, 2020, 05:42:51 am

poultrygoose, obviously.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 02, 2020, 07:02:01 am

What's good for the poultrygoose is good for the gandervamp

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 02, 2020, 08:00:16 am

Beware the jub-jub bird, and shun
The frumious gandersnatch

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 02, 2020, 08:50:55 am

Quote from: scriver on August 02, 2020, 08:00:16 am

Beware the jub-jub bird, and shun
The frumious gandersnatch

Beware the flower heaths where the bansheep graze,
Beware the fiery peat hills of the salamancer's blaze.
In the darkened moats of boggy devil goats,
In the acidic maze of the mosquitaur,
There lies the dark source of this infernal power

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 02, 2020, 11:07:28 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on August 01, 2020, 02:27:07 pm

I liked how in 1e the only benefit to playing a dwarf was that you had an instinctive ability to detect a subtle incline plane, used to defeat what was apparently a common DM trap at the time of tricking the players into going to a deeper level then they thought they were on, which would then "allow" the DM to use stronger monsters. Weird stuff, the 1e culture.

I think that made it into some of the other editions as well. I vaguely remember it in AD&D second edition. Probably both the ability and the culture.

Quote from: Iduno on August 01, 2020, 01:27:54 pm

Edit: I've also been thinking about AD&D's weird 18/% strength thing, where certain classes got an improved strength rating at 18, with bonuses to the things you'd normally get from strength. It at least allowed fighters to be good at the one thing they did. And also the wizard spell (5th spell level ish?) that turns you into a fighter for a while, with full strength bonus etc.

I looked into it more, and the minimum 18/% score is 18/1%, which gives +0 to hit or open doors vs 18, +1 damage, extra weight allowance, and 4% extra bend bars/break gates. 18 strength in AD&D had a 16% chance, based on a d20, which is based on 5% increments. That was also back when thief abilities were increased in 1% increments, and also based on a d20 roll. Those are all nice to have written down, but when you've tied yourself to a RNG that's based on 5% increments, use 5% increments.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 02, 2020, 02:49:53 pm

I know that in one of the editions (2e, maybe) 18/% strength was one of the only ways to brute force a magic door effect, by just being so fukhuge you can tear it down.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 02, 2020, 04:06:28 pm

So we're starting my first Roll20 game, with a DM who isn't familiar with DMing Roll20 and who waited until this moment to let us know that all sourcebooks are allowed for chargen/spell selection/etc.  :P Off to a good start!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 02, 2020, 06:54:27 pm

All right: sphynxes

What is the best thing a sphynx can do to enact a toll upon players whilst still being fun? Riddles are a bit painful for my group, but I'm thinking of having the sphynx ask them for a story about some theme / to borrow a feature for a day. Yet it seems like either way it'll be a brief interaction, which is a shame

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on August 02, 2020, 07:02:13 pm

Force them to collectively compose a rhyming account of what they did that day. If they do more things, demand more verses?
Unless your group would hate that, which some people would.

Not sure what you mean by "borrow a feature"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 02, 2020, 07:33:17 pm

Quote from: NJW2000 on August 02, 2020, 07:02:13 pm

Force them to collectively compose a rhyming account of what they did that day. If they do more things, demand more verses?
Unless your group would hate that, which some people would.

Not sure what you mean by "borrow a feature"?

Have them give up a class feature for a day, e.g. an extra attack, bonus action thing or something

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 02, 2020, 09:49:43 pm

Perhaps the sphinx could reward the group with a riddle-based ability of some sort?  I'm picturing something where they ask a riddle in combat to get, I don't know, temporary advantage by distracting the foe. 

My group *loved* riddles, so much that we always spared the "riddle ogre" we kept encountering while traveling.  Apparently the encounter chart called for a random ogre to show up and attack, and our GM thought that was boring.  He swears we rolled it fair and square the latter 3 times (between basilisks and other less memorable encounters).  I guess it would have tried to eat us, except that we're decent at riddles between the three of us.  Good times!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 03, 2020, 07:06:31 am

Emo-sphinx asks the characters all pay her toll in a happy memory. She either takes the memory away from them or borrows it for a day. In case of the latter when they get the memory back they remember it as if she was there all along.

Sphinx demands toll on the form of a sacrifice of courage. The character who sacrifices his has disadvantage on rolls against fear effects (or similar) for a time. Use when you think your players are going to go up against spooky things. Or don't if that would be unfair.

Sphinx demands a letter from their names. No givebacks, Frank

Sphinx demands magic. You have to pay her a spellslot/use of a spell for that day.

Sphinx demands life. You have to give up one of your hit dice that you can use to regain health at short rests for a day.

I just realised I've assumed the sphinxcounter would take place right next to other encounters. Duration of sacrifices will probably have to be changed if not.

Sphinx has lost her wings and wants to fly. Druid has to temporarily give up a use of their wildshape.

Sphinx is having a little gettogether with her fellow sphinxes and wants manticore casserole recepies. Or maybe she wants their advice on how to best prepare a person?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 03, 2020, 08:10:04 am

Quote from: scriver on August 03, 2020, 07:06:31 am

Emo-sphinx asks the characters all pay her toll in a happy memory. She either takes the memory away from them or borrows it for a day. In case of the latter when they get the memory back they remember it as if she was there all along.

If your players are good roleplayers, you could go double with the standard fey folk payment: one joyful laugh and one sorrowful tear, collected at an unspecified time in the future. Save these for something major and dramatic, and then explain that the character only feels hollow. They know they should be happy or sad, but are so unable to express their emotions that they start doubting themselves. For bonus points, make sure it happens in public.

In a funeral: "Hey! That guy doesn't look sad! He must be the murderer!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 03, 2020, 08:19:48 am

Quote from: scriver on August 03, 2020, 07:06:31 am

Emo-sphinx asks the characters all pay her toll in a happy memory. She either takes the memory away from them or borrows it for a day. In case of the latter when they get the memory back they remember it as if she was there all along.

This one is fucking amazing. Also now there's two sphynxes because I like the idea of a sphynx couple, each with different personalities, so they can ask different things from the players.

Quote from: scriver on August 03, 2020, 07:06:31 am

Sphinx demands toll on the form of a sacrifice of courage. The character who sacrifices his has disadvantage on rolls against fear effects (or similar) for a time. Use when you think your players are going to go up against spooky things. Or don't if that would be unfair.

Literally going to sick the four ducks, geese and swans of the apocalypse on them afterwards :D

Quote from: scriver on August 03, 2020, 07:06:31 am

Sphinx demands a letter from their names. No givebacks, Frank

Cruel and hilarious

Quote from: scriver on August 03, 2020, 07:06:31 am

Sphinx demands magic. You have to pay her a spellslot/use of a spell for that day.

Sphinx demands life. You have to give up one of your hit dice that you can use to regain health at short rests for a day.

I just realised I've assumed the sphinxcounter would take place right next to other encounters. Duration of sacrifices will probably have to be changed if not.

Sphinx has lost her wings and wants to fly. Druid has to temporarily give up a use of their wildshape.

Sphinx is having a little gettogether with her fellow sphinxes and wants manticore casserole recepies. Or maybe she wants their advice on how to best prepare a person?

I like the last one a lot, could turn it into a skill challenge where they all have to teach the sphynx something valuable

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 02, 2020, 09:49:43 pm

Perhaps the sphinx could reward the group with a riddle-based ability of some sort?  I'm picturing something where they ask a riddle in combat to get, I don't know, temporary advantage by distracting the foe. 

My group *loved* riddles, so much that we always spared the "riddle ogre" we kept encountering while traveling.  Apparently the encounter chart called for a random ogre to show up and attack, and our GM thought that was boring.  He swears we rolled it fair and square the latter 3 times (between basilisks and other less memorable encounters).  I guess it would have tried to eat us, except that we're decent at riddles between the three of us.  Good times!

Could do. This is a beach episode though so I already planned to have environmental buffs, and they hate riddles (or rather, one player loves riddles whilst the rest turn their brains on idle at the hint of a puzzle)

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 03, 2020, 08:10:04 am

If your players are good roleplayers, you could go double with the standard fey folk payment: one joyful laugh and one sorrowful tear, collected at an unspecified time in the future. Save these for something major and dramatic, and then explain that the character only feels hollow. They know they should be happy or sad, but are so unable to express their emotions that they start doubting themselves. For bonus points, make sure it happens in public.

In a funeral: "Hey! That guy doesn't look sad! He must be the murderer!"

"No I'm not the murderer, I'm just dead inside"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 03, 2020, 08:58:23 am

Cruelty of DM on players--


Ennui sphinx asserts it has watched humanity since the days the gods first created them, and has seen no evidence they are anything but animals with a strong case of self-deception. Demands to be shown a human quality it has never seen before; and it must be transcendent in nature.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 03, 2020, 09:02:04 am

~~~ True Love ~~~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 03, 2020, 09:04:37 am

I was going more for "proof of man's divine soul"-- True Love is cliche, and likely something such a sphinx will have "seen" many times.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 03, 2020, 09:12:41 am

Bah, divine soul is boring shit, what folks wanna see is high romance.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 03, 2020, 09:18:38 am

Rainbow-sphinx demands you replace a part of your character's sexual preferences or identity as payment. Cis becomes trans, straight becomes gay, asexual becomes pansexual, or so forth.

Reverse-sphinx demands you tell it a riddle, and make it a good one or it will squash you.

Slashfic-sphinx demands the two party members of it's OTP engage in a make-out session.

Philoso-sphinx poses riddles with no answer, from koans to trolley problems, and demands you show enlightenment, such as answering with one of your own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 03, 2020, 09:34:20 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on August 02, 2020, 06:54:27 pm

All right: sphynxes

What is the best thing a sphynx can do to enact a toll upon players whilst still being fun? Riddles are a bit painful for my group, but I'm thinking of having the sphynx ask them for a story about some theme / to borrow a feature for a day. Yet it seems like either way it'll be a brief interaction, which is a shame

Having them each tell a tale of their most heroic moment sounds like a lot of fun.

Reminds me a bit of the Halloween episode I ran, where each character described their costume. Absolutely no mechanical impact on the game, but enjoyable just to go around the table and have everyone contribute something interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on August 03, 2020, 09:35:48 am

There's no sphinx, just a note:  "OUT TO LUNCH, BE BACK SOON, PLEASE WAIT FOR ME"

The sphinx is actually somewhere else, remote viewing.  If they wait, it'll return in an hour and let them through.  If they betray its trust and go through, it'll put a curse on them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2020, 09:36:30 am

Some really interesting ideas, tho' I'm not sure why a sphinx is being attributed these kinds of world warping powers, did fifth ed make them genie level beings?

Unrelated, and please don't go off on this, this just really really bothers me.

Quote from: Jimmy on August 03, 2020, 09:18:38 am

Cis

Please refrain from the use of this word.  Talk all you want about gender and sexuality, I won't put any damper on those topics (beyond the whole 'on topic' thing), I just don't want to see this word, because I find it offensive as hell when used in this context.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 03, 2020, 09:45:13 am

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2020, 09:36:30 am

Some really interesting ideas, tho' I'm not sure why a sphinx is being attributed these kinds of world warping powers, did fifth ed make them genie level beings?

Wizards capable of casting spells up to 5th level. Quite limited reality warping, but powerful enough for some interesting tricks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2020, 09:53:21 am

Yeah, I can see that.  And based on the sphinx myth I can see where the ideas come from.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 03, 2020, 01:52:40 pm

Quote from: Jimmy on August 03, 2020, 09:18:38 am

Philoso-sphinx poses riddles with no answer, from koans to trolley problems, and demands you show enlightenment, such as answering with one of your own.

I can't believe I've never included a trolley problem situation in a DND dungeon yet

Anyways I've settled on five questions for five adventurers:
1. What was the happiest moment in your life?
2. What was the most heroic moment in your life?
3. What was the saddest moment in your life?
The sphynx is then in the memories of this moment as a spectator who was always there the whole time.

The other sphynx is going to ask:
1. Teach me something I don't already know (borrow one of their skills for a day).
2. Give me one of the syllables in your name (sphynx takes one of the syllables or consonants in their name. Sphynx is going to try and learn the character's true name with this information, resulting in a future campaign hook).

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2020, 09:36:30 am

Some really interesting ideas, tho' I'm not sure why a sphinx is being attributed these kinds of world warping powers, did fifth ed make them genie level beings?

I'm fairly arbitrary when it comes to following the materials DND provide, in that I modify everything I touch. It keeps things fresh and also keeps it interesting for my players, two of which regularly DM and so know a lot of the stuff DND source material has

Speaking of, I'm making a fuckhueg set of tables for custom magic creation. I'm doing it as a table of 5-100, with rolling 5d20 to get the results, ensuring a dominating spread around the centre. Alternatively, just mix and match to your heart's desire. The centre is going to be full of fairly standard effects (giving an item +1, +2, +3, att increases, low level spells e.t.c.) whilst the fringes will be full of the wild effects. I'm making four big tables: magic, curse, artifact and cosmetic.

The cooler magic effects are all things I hope can incentivise player roleplaying and creative thinking, so they're going to be full of things that affect the character's relationship with the environment (wall climbing, water breathing, stealthing, a few low level utility spell or creature effects).

The artifact effects are going to be much stronger magic effects or uniquely powerful effects, like the legendary Breastplate Stretcher of the Mighty Robert (allows the user to resize any heavy armour set), chalked gloves of the LIFT Princess (gives advantage to any athletics check to grapple, climb or LIFT, doubles lift capacity) or the lost Pearl of the Oyster King (casts lvl 9 animate objects. Currently the centrepiece for my beach campaign, where my players are going to retrieve it from the Sand Castle, which is full of animated sand homonculi at war with the Oyster King (it was his pearl), an angel of fate (he gave the pearl to his love), the seven deadly pondlings (they intend to use it to return to life) and a witch, Lady SingLe Tang (she lost the pearl).

The curse effects are either the inverse of the magic effects, corruptions, conditions or any particularly fun drawback, added onto a magic item/artifact in addition to the beneficial effect. I like it when curses are more like glitches, and players are incentivised to use them anyways rather than be forced to make a WIS save to not use it.
For example, the Berserker's Axe (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Berserker%20Axe), which was a favourite of our whole party as it let us use our party barbarian like a cruise missile.

Lastly the cosmetic effects. Mostly harmless flavour text and adjectives here, however some materials or conditions can have significant impact on the item. E.g. an oversized greatsword or armour too small or too big to wear, the courtly adjective would turn an item into a refined equivalent that may not be the most combat effective wear, target demographic might be something wildly different to the finder of the artifact (e.g. opposite gender, wildly different age or race).

Some more examples I've made so far using the table:

Original item (pair of socks) + magic item effect (+3 to AC) + curse (corruption, dwarven) + cosmetic (adamantine, material) = The Blankets of Victory, a masterwork dwarven pair of socks. If the person wearing the Blankets of Victory is not a Dwarf, every day the wearer is attuned to the Blankets of Victory, roll a DC15 CON Save. On a success nothing occurs. On a failure the wearer grows a beard (if they have none), or their beard grows 5 inches (if they have one). On each successive failure, the wearer's beard grows further, and they lose/gain d6 inches of height until they are between 4 and 5 ft tall. If within this height range, they stop changing height, and no longer need to roll a CON save to avoid beard growth. Instead, the character can choose to willingly grow their beard by 5 inches a day. Greater restoration will restore the character to their former stature, and the beard can be harmlessly shaved off. The socks can also be used to cast charm person one one Dwarf a week (DC15 WIS).

OI (book) + magic effect (casts banishment opd) + cosmetic (target demographic: child) = A copy of the children's book "Fae, Fae, Go Away." Inside the front cover is a written message: 'For my dear Ori,
Never be afraid of the dark. For as long as you have this book with you, you are safe.
Love,
Walden'
Whilst holding this book, you can cast banishment once per day.

OI (cloak) + magic effect (casts invisibility) + curse effect (inversion) + cosmetic (giant cave spider silk) = Cloak of invisibility. When activated, the cloak is always invisible. Does not affect the wearer, however. Stitched onto the cloak is a letter of receipt, stating the cloak was commissioned by the Emperor.
 
OI (shield) + magic effect (ABI) + curse effect (condition: only works in bright light) + cosmetic (courtly) = The Dayman's Shield of Justice. Increases strength and AC by +2, but only provides the strength bonus when the shield is exposed to bright light.

OI (high boots) + magic effect (enlongening) + cosmetic (courtly) = The Highest Heels. Created at the behest of Tiana the Small, later known as Tiana the Tall. When attuned, the Highest Heels provides +2 dex. For one action, the wearer of the Highest Heels may modify the length of the heel, up to 30ft in length. The sole of the shoe does not rise to match the length of the heel, and the wearer may have to make a DC (5 + every ft of heel) Dex acrobatics save in order to avoid falling over / stumbling in a random direction, at the DM's discretion. At their resting state, the Highest Heels  have a two inch heel.

OI (Helm) + magic effect (casts dominate person/monster) + curse effect (inversion) + cosmetic (battleworn) =  Broken Helm of the Enslaver
The players find the Splintered Helm of the Enslaver beneath the skeleton of its former wearer, with a pickaxe running through the Helm and the skull. After the helm is repaired, it can be worn. Wearing the repaired Helm provides +1 AC and allows the casting of dominate person or dominate creature once per day.
Upon casting either spell, both the wearer and the target make a DC18 WIS save. If both creatures succeed, nothing happens. If one creature fails, they are under the effect of the spell, as if the creature who made the successful saving throw had cast the spell. If both creatures fail, the creature with the highest saving throw rolled is considered the caster of the spell, and the one with the lowest roll is under the spell.

OI (medium leather armour) + magic effect (grants aquatic adaption) + curse effect (corruption, gotta be catfish) + cosmetic (leather) = Tunic of the Deep Cat (grants swim speed, water breathing, nullifies underwater disadvantages on attack rolls or ability checks caused by being underwater). Using the Trident of the Deep Cat for too long causes the character to become sea-adapted on a failed CON save, causing them to air-drown on dry land. Removing the tunic removes all of the benefits it provides, but does not remove sea-adaptation unless greater restoration is cast upon them.

Original item (Wand) + Artifact Effect (lvl 9 fireball) + Curse (inversion) + cosmetic (living, organic material) = Wand of Pyrrhus.
The Wand of Pyrrhus looks like a desiccated human index finger, and brims with the powerful evocation magic of the Archmage Pyrrhus. Once per day it casts a lvl 9 fireball centred around the wielder, also affecting the wielder. It does this once a day and provides the wielder with resistance versus fire damage for the duration of the spell.


Any more ideas for adjectives, effects and modifiers to add to any of the tables?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 03, 2020, 01:58:13 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 03, 2020, 08:58:23 am

Demands to be shown a human quality it has never seen before; and it must be transcendent in nature.

Tentacle hentai.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2020, 02:03:33 pm

That is a fun and silly sounding magic item table, I hope your players enjoy the items as much as I enjoyed reading those descriptions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 03, 2020, 07:33:05 pm

Quote from: NullForceOmega on August 03, 2020, 02:03:33 pm

That is a fun and silly sounding magic item table, I hope your players enjoy the items as much as I enjoyed reading those descriptions.

Thanks, I hope so too

I enjoy making this stuff but I always believe there's no game, no story, until your friends have played it

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/4qjwEN0.png)(https://i.imgur.com/CI15i0X.png)

So I've added to the first three with help from you guys. There are some stray pixels I need to sort out but for the most part I'm happy with the results, especially since I feel like I'm making actual progress when it comes to drawing shit. At the very least, I'd be willing to show these to my friends! ;D

So we got (left to right)
Goose (poultergoose / poultergeist), swan (black swan / black knight), duck (duch / lich), goose (gandervamp / vampire), magpie (Mr. Magman / Mammon, A Magpire was tempting but their money grabbing was too obvious), pigeon (Pigeon Pilate / rakasha), heron (Heronymous Boss / roc).

Also keeping in theme with the seven breadly sins.
-Poultergoose is envy, always taking others things but can never actually use them or hold onto them for long because incorporeal. Generally speaking, doesn't get along with any of the other breadly sins at all, as it envies them all and is especially despised by Mr. Magpie.
-Black Swan is wrath, always breaking people's arms and killing other birbs for no reason. Fairly self-explanatory here. Black Swan is on great terms with Pigeon Pilate & Gandervamp, and is on good terms with all of the breadly sins except the Duch and Poultergoose.
-Duch is sloth, because he is an idle bird who sees no reason to do anything besides make more bread golem servants & drift in a pond. Generally keeps to himself, but has excellent relations with Hieronymous Boss, because they are both self-indulgent birds.
-Gandervamp is lust. Geese haven't really been associated with lust as far as I'm aware, but this one's a juicygoose. Gandervamp is superficially charming and a master of disguise, but holds a killer instinct reserved for all the birds he can charm. Not the most lethal of breadly sins, he is nevertheless one of the most powerful.
-Mr. Magman is greed, because he sees shiny he collects shiny. Literally just a normal magpie given the means to accomplish its objectives. Being the most intelligent, he's literally got an eye for gold and is the most willing to negotiate with characters. Also wears a tie, which the other birds think is a bit much, even for them.
-Pigeon Pilate is pride, because I thought it was amusing to have the most humble of birds be the most seduced by worldly status. Having forsaken their humble pigeon roots, Pigeon Pilate has risen to the top of the bird world by usurping the dark powers that caused his ascent. Nominally a friend to all birds, Pigeon Pilate is plotting to become the most powerful sin.
-Heronymous Boss is gluttony, because the more she eats the more she grows, the more she grows the more she eats, and she doesn't stop. Where she goes, towns descend into riotous feasts which never end, fattening themselves for the eventual harvest by the winged hunger that is HERONYMOUS BOSS. Heronymous has no relations with anything which can be eaten, which is most things.


Not sure on the final names, especially for the last 3, but the lore and characterisation is practically writing itself. That said, I can't sick all 7 at once so there's no way I can use all of them in one session. I think I'll have them ask for the players to hand over the oyster pearl to them, leaving the choice up to the players as to whether they leave the pearl to the sandmen, the angel, the oyster king or the witch. The seven breadly sins can all be bosses for future days, though the poultergoose can always be there, always throwing things around

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 03, 2020, 08:12:18 pm

You got Count Duckula?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 03, 2020, 08:22:20 pm

Quote from: Iduno on August 03, 2020, 08:12:18 pm

You got Count Duckula?

I sense a powerful background rivalry with the Gandervamp and Count Duckula

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 03, 2020, 09:53:59 pm

Being a rakshasa, Pigeon Pilate may be difficult to permanently defeat if the PCs don't have any planar travel ability. Watch as they kill him once, only to be ambushed by him a month later.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 03, 2020, 10:31:11 pm

The invisible cloak could actually be useful, since you could use it to deflect small missiles, etc-- with "seemingly nothing".

Likewise, could be wrapped around one's face as an invisible dust mask, etc. 

If it got wet, it could be quite entertaining as a makeshift improvised weapon. (whip type.)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 04, 2020, 03:28:48 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 03, 2020, 01:58:13 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 03, 2020, 08:58:23 am

Demands to be shown a human quality it has never seen before; and it must be transcendent in nature.

Tentacle hentai.

This is not the time to bring up cat girls!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 04, 2020, 03:38:01 am

Quote from: scriver on August 04, 2020, 03:28:48 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 03, 2020, 01:58:13 pm

Quote from: wierd on August 03, 2020, 08:58:23 am

Demands to be shown a human quality it has never seen before; and it must be transcendent in nature.

Tentacle hentai.

This is not the time to bring up cat girls!

I would remind that a supernatural entity with endless free time, has surely some analogous view about Internet Rule 34.  Thus, if your answer is "porn", you likely lose. 

It does not matter how novel the porn is, that sphinx has already seen it, and is not impressed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 04, 2020, 06:34:00 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on August 03, 2020, 09:53:59 pm

Being a rakshasa, Pigeon Pilate may be difficult to permanently defeat if the PCs don't have any planar travel ability. Watch as they kill him once, only to be ambushed by him a month later.

Seems fitting too, I think Pigeon Pilate seems like one of the sins most likely to have others fight its battles for it. I like to imagine as well that Pigeon Pilate will attack players in other ways, like trying to get an entire city to deny them basic services

Spoiler: finalized seven breadly sins (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/GnMw5ij.png)

(Left to right)

1. Envy, the Poultergoose. Always coveting, always eyeing up whatever lies in reach, the dreaded poultergoose is driven by the eternal impulse to take what belongs to others. Unable to hold onto anything for too long, its ill-gotten proceeds falling through its ghostly feathered clutches, it is never satiated, always searching... Beware the green honk in the night.

2. Wrath, the Black Swan. Once a champion of the virtuous birds, the Black Swan fell to the Seven Breadly Sins after breaking the arms of multiple innocent children. Consumed by their rage, the Black Swan became the incarnation of wrath, breaking the arms of everyone everywhere. Wherever she goes, anger erupts throughout the land - brother set upon brother, sister upon sister, with every quarrel a feud, every feud a blood feud, until the ponds run red with the blood of the dead.

3. Sloth, the Duch. Milling around in their pond, the Duch was once an innocent Duck until they were fed the first malnutritious and deadly breadly sin. Consumed by the necrotic energies of a food no bird was meant to eat, the Duck became the Duch, an undead monstrosity that summons bread golems to see to its every need. Despite being the oldest breadly sin, the Duch has not accomplished much - preferring to set soporific sloth upon all of his foes with comfy constriction.

4. Lust, the Suggoosebus. When the heavens ordained that geese should be the noble exemplars of chastity and monogamy, the heavens saw that it was good. One fateful goose however, politely disagreed. In open rebellion against the heavenly order, the Suggoosebus was formed from the knowing consumption of a breadly sin. Though not the most lethal of sins, the Suggosebus is one of the most powerful - Wherever the Suggoosebus goes, extramarital handholding follows, the harbinger of the discord and strife yet to come.

5. Greed, A.K.A. Mr. Magman.  The Magpie was always the most intelligent of the birds, and indeed of the whole animal Kingdom. The Magpie used his foresight and intelligence to spread good luck and good fortune throughout the land, until he happened upon a piece of the Seven Breadly Sins. Corrupted by its shiny power, the Magpie became the enigmatic Mr. Magman, a well-dressed purveyor of all things yet to see hostile acquisition. After all, it's just business, and he's making a killing.

6.  Pride, the Pigeon Pilate. It is unclear whether Pigeon Pilate is his name or his title, for status and identity have become one and the same for Pigeon Pilate. Once the most humble of all the birds, Pigeon Pilate was invigorated by the breadly sin to become the greatest of all birds, to suffer no strike with impunity nor insult without overwhelming retaliation. Pigeon Pilate has been busy at work in the machinations of courts, businesses and governments everywhere, manipulating the proceeds of the mortal and immortal realms to rise above the limits of the skies. Many a time Pigeon Pilate has been slain, only to be located weeks later at another location - sometimes multiple locations at once. How this is achieved, none but Pigeon Pilate know.

7.  Gluttony, HERONYMOUS BOSS. She was a fisherbird once, a steward who tended to the rivers and waterways, maintaining a careful balance - the perfect image of temperance.
Until the fateful day she devoured one of the breadly sins. No change manifested at first, but the faint pangs of hunger that gripped her stomach were to become the portent of something far greater, far more fell and fearsome to behold. The breadly sin festered in her stomach, providing her no nutritional value at all. To compensate she devoured more, but still she hungered. Eventually she set to hunting day and night, hour by hour, but her only profit was to grow and exceed her diet, her hunt an endless exercise in rapturous famine. For the more she ate, the more she grew. The more she grew, the more she ate.
Beware the town gripped by riotous feasting, for they are already under the influence of HERONYMOUS BOSS, unwittingly fattening themselves for the gruesome harvest coming over the horizon.



Gandervamp, Count Duckula, Bansheep and the Salamancer are all going to be used for something else. All in all, I am satisfied with these 7. I think I'm going to pull a Pandora's box on them, where a normal magpie guides them to an artifact sword which just so happens to be containing the Seven Breadly Sins. Once they are unleashed it's a future campaign hook to reseal all the sins as they sow their seeds throughout the Empire

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on August 04, 2020, 06:40:09 am

Will count duckula have a brawny chicken nanny, and a greasy buzzard for a butler? (blunderingly incompetent, and acidically dry, respectively?)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 05, 2020, 04:03:51 am

Obviously not Australian, or else you'd have Wrath as a magpie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma_5QppCuyI) and Gluttony as a bin-chicken (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4dYWhkSbTU).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 05, 2020, 04:43:36 am

Emus would be Pride

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 08, 2020, 03:44:37 pm

Was tempted to make a gluttony sea gull but I'm happy to leave them as minions

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 08, 2020, 04:23:01 pm

Pelican?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 09, 2020, 05:25:24 am

Cursed Waistband of Uselessness (AKA: The Futility Belt)

Can be used to store, protect, and retrieve a large variety of components, tools, ammunition and other assorted tidbits at reduced weight. However, the pouches can only be opened when you don't specifically need what's inside them. Attempting to access the relevant item in a time of need will result in the user meaninglessly probing a completely sealed container with no flap or opening.

Also also known as the Di-sash-ter.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2020, 06:39:41 am

How do you determine what is needed inside them?

Perhaps it has an endless supply of really situation specific solutions for problems you don't have, things like shark repellent in a desert

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 09, 2020, 08:37:48 am

Ammunition pouch is closed when you need to make a ranged attack, component pouch is closed when needing to cast a spell, money pouch when making a purchase etc...

Great at holding stuff for when you don't have an immediate need for it! Not so great if you do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 09, 2020, 11:02:47 am

Cup of Glass Half Full -- When a drink is poured into this cup it transforms into a foul tasting viscous liquid that when imbibed in one sup gives the drinker the Blessing if Glass Half Full a magical feeling of optimism and advantage on saves against fear and other morale effects until the end of their next short or long rest.

However, when the disgusting drink falls upon the drinker's tongue they must immediately make a DC _nottoohard_ Constitution save. If they fail the save they are unable to sweep the cup in one go and they become affected by the Curse of Glass Half Empty and they are overwhelmed by a strong feeling of negativity and disadvantage on all saves against fear and other morale effects. This curse remains until it is removed with the Remove Curse spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 09, 2020, 11:35:55 am

Guys, this isn't the Bizzare Magical Items Thread. :p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 09, 2020, 12:44:39 pm

Actually when I wrote that I got the strongest feeling that I've seen that (or something similar) somewhere before (descripta vu?). If I colombufied that from someone here I apologise ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 09, 2020, 03:20:27 pm

Welp, just had a session 0 for a housewide we're-bored-because-plague RPG with me as GM. Went pretty well considering that I went into it not knowing what we'd be doing at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 09, 2020, 03:23:49 pm

That's awesome? Did they enter your magical realm?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 09, 2020, 03:29:11 pm

N-not yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 11, 2020, 05:18:36 am

What if your magical realm is happy players

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 11, 2020, 06:09:42 am

Now you're just making things weird

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on August 11, 2020, 11:19:07 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on August 11, 2020, 05:18:36 am

What if your magical realm is happy players

I'm not into high fantasy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 12, 2020, 05:02:05 pm

Quote from: delphonso link=topic=151000.msg8177190#msg8177190

I'm not into high fantasy.

What about low fantasy campaign where the only magic allowed is ritual casting

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 12, 2020, 05:05:47 pm

Humans would have a pretty big advantage as casters at low levels due to being able to pick up the Ritual Caster feat at level 1. Everyone else would either have to wait for a few levels before they can do any spells or else put a level in a class that's only as useful as a feat that anyone can pick up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 12, 2020, 05:25:24 pm

Low fantasy that is actually high fantasy. The whole world is being kept in mud and poverty be cause the ruling class are magic parasites, demigods only because they each have the stolen magic of a million workers.

Wait, that's just real life, never mind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on August 12, 2020, 05:45:58 pm

Guilded Age (webcomic) had a version of that where the Sky Elves used conjuration to feed and supply their mysterious flying cities.  Eventually the other peoples figured out that conjuration doesn't make, it takes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on August 12, 2020, 08:32:44 pm

For the last couple years I've been noodling on a steampunk setting where magic oil is discovered during the scramble for not-africa and kicks off the steam revolution.  Extraction is horribly dangerous, prone to blowouts of volatile flesh-eating impurities, also gives prophetic visions and magic powers when properly prepared and consumed as a drug.  It's also the blood of god, and burning it for fuel is polluting reality on a metaphysical level.  Basically a prequel to bloodborne, is the kind of situation I'm thinking.  Will probably never make a game of it though.

I also mostly prefer low fantasy, but the best RPG setting of all time, Glorantha, is extremely high fantasy, where any warrior worth the term can enchant his arms and armor at the absolute minimum, the moon is an incarnate goddess, and your character lived through a war between demigods and demonic WMDs (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWUdR13VoAAlj2n?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) and ended when a mile-long dragon burst out of the ground and devoured the entire enemy army.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 13, 2020, 03:09:19 am

For extra fun, magic oil/god blood contains parasites that spawn from the wells, releasing monsters into the world. Sounds like a good story that writes itself, though that'd be a lot of legwork crafting a full campaign world beforehand, with maps, cities, notable historical figures and whatnot.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 13, 2020, 01:11:12 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on August 12, 2020, 05:45:58 pm

Guilded Age (webcomic) had a version of that where the Sky Elves used conjuration to feed and supply their mysterious flying cities.  Eventually the other peoples figured out that conjuration doesn't make, it takes.

A bit like Battle Angel Alita, then?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on August 13, 2020, 01:24:01 pm

And now I want an official Death Gate Cycle product despite not having read it in years and it probably not holding up well.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One of the magical civilizations was trying to figure out why they were dropping dead in massive numbers. Through the protag, we discover that the denizens of an inhospitable hellworld were using necromancy to survive. Not, like, raise a zombie army and take resources by force, but raise people to do manual labor. Necromancy doesn't just bring a corpse to un-life - the spark for that gets taken from a random living person somewhere in existence.

In the cosmology, this hellworld is where all metals came from. Another less hellish world was the breadbasket of this particular civilization. Combine the whole "randomly kill civ members" thing with the low-ish pop of the hellworld and you construct a doomed situation from which there is no escape.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 13, 2020, 05:10:06 pm

Quote from: Mephisto on August 13, 2020, 01:24:01 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One of the magical civilizations was trying to figure out why they were dropping dead in massive numbers. Through the protag, we discover that the denizens of an inhospitable hellworld were using necromancy to survive. Not, like, raise a zombie army and take resources by force, but raise people to do manual labor. Necromancy doesn't just bring a corpse to un-life - the spark for that gets taken from a random living person somewhere in existence.

In the cosmology, this hellworld is where all metals came from. Another less hellish world was the breadbasket of this particular civilization. Combine the whole "randomly kill civ members" thing with the low-ish pop of the hellworld and you construct a doomed situation from which there is no escape.

And now my inner min-maxer is constructing mental images of massive fetus factories producing millions of souls for the purpose of buffering the surrounding population, and all the theological implications of that method on identifying when a soul forms.

Where there's a problem, there's a morally ambiguous hack to get around it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 14, 2020, 05:27:09 pm

Sounds like the plot of Doom

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 14, 2020, 05:36:38 pm

Current, living humanity versus the dead.

All 100+ billion of them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 14, 2020, 08:27:07 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on August 14, 2020, 05:36:38 pm

Current, living humanity versus the dead.

All 100+ billion of them.

Living humanity wins, but is betrayed by dead (inside) gang at the final hour

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on August 14, 2020, 09:49:27 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on August 14, 2020, 05:36:38 pm

Current, living humanity versus the dead.

All 100+ billion of them.

How would the ancient dead returning actually work? Dust to dust and all that, pretty much every atom in their bodies has completely suffused into the biosphere, including into the bodies of all who came after them, both living and dead. Returning them into their old bodies would spell the immediate disintegration of all life on Earth, while building fresh bodies would require more nonliving biomatter than there currently is. The thermodynamic implications would be great.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 14, 2020, 10:02:25 pm

I'm thinking literal gates of hell and they're like antiseptic walking corpses, so they don't have any military equipment but they could appear anywhere and they can just walk on the bottom of the ocean. Gates of hell are too hot for living humans to pass through, not sure what happens if you send in a hellprobe though.

alternatively

The dead are literally alive and not dead. Time-traveling aliens/humans have been snatching people from their deaths, replacing them with empty clone bodies (no biomass issues), and bringing them forward to become the Grand Army of the Living Dead. And brainwashed to fight us I guess.

Before you call it an instant loss remember how few of these people know what a machine gun is or what to do about a machine gun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on August 15, 2020, 12:30:25 am

Yeah, it greatly depends on where and how the dead appear. Can they be reasoned with? Frankly, any pre-civilization cave-man would probably drop to their knees and worship us as gods. Especially the fat people, who to them would probably appear as the apex of all humanity could create.

First, where are they all appearing? I'm assuming it's not 100 meters above Point Nemo in the pacific ocean. Are they returning to the closest point where they died? If so, sucks to be in Africa and the Middle East, but what else is new? Are they spawning out of static locations at a set rate? Seems kind of easy to just send a guided missile every thirty seconds or so at that spot and wait for the survivors to drown in a crater filled with a slurry of human body parts.

Assuming they're brainwashed, then we're just talking about a zombie apocalypse style horde, but made of frail, living people? Tear gas the lot to take the fight out of 'em, then send in the machine guns. Unless they're waging guerrilla warfare, modern militaries care not one whit for the struggles of untrained masses of rabble armed with melee weapons. They'd run out of bodies long before we'd run out of bullets.

Honestly, the greatest damage would not be their ability to attack us, but their ability to disrupt the fragile network of supply chains that keeps modern society fed and warm. Adding 1,500% greater resource strain overnight on food, water and basic survival necessities would see towns stripped bare of all consumer goods within days. Then, those outside of the reach of government held stockpiles would simply starve to death in the coming weeks.

So yeah, probably we'd see a critical global resource collapse, but the strongholds of modern civilization would survive, and eventually reclaim their territories. Not because the masses of dead humans are dangerous, but simply because they could get hungry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 15, 2020, 12:44:42 am

Quote from: Jimmy on August 15, 2020, 12:30:25 am

Especially the fat people, who to them would probably appear as the apex of all humanity could create.

This part struck me: WOULD they, though? Sure, the idea that plumpness was seen as a correlate of economic power is a trope, though scholars still dispute it, but, more importantly, the morbidly obese we have today would fall completely outside the scale of anything the majority of history's humans had ever experienced — they may not even recognise them as human. At that point it's a tossup between "HAVE MERCY, NEW ROUND GODS" and "Oh, what an exciting new kind of prey animal for me to spear."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on August 15, 2020, 02:35:30 am

Speaking of undead, here's one I've been wanting to do.  The players have to go to an ancient ruined city to retrieve a mystical artifact, the usual shit.  When they get there, it's guarded by undead, bound to protect the artifact until the fated heroes prove their worth in the vault's deadly trials and retrieve the artifact, the usual shit.

Complication, they don't know they're dead.  There's thousands of skeletons, all still thinking they're alive, still doing normal city shit.  Chances are the players' reaction gives the game away and the city goes apeshit.  Riots in the streets, political upheaval, factions coalescing around differing approaches to the "holy shit we're skeletons what the fuck" revelation.  Worse, if the players complete their quest the spell will be broken.  Some people are still friendly to the heroes, some are hostile to these dickheads who turned their society upside down, some just want to die for real, some are trying to sabotage the trials and preserve their immortality, players have to survive a city in chaos and navigate cutthroat skeleton politics while deciding what to actually do about the macguffin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 16, 2020, 04:29:13 am

So y'know that game I mentioned earlier, with the dude planning on going Full Bard and providing his narcissistance to the group (with Gilderoy Lockhart being the driving character inspiration)? Well he actually mellowed out really well and changed his dude into a kinda overly fanciful bard who was starstruck with the party's barbarian and was determined to write the most epic biography of this musclebound fellow, glossing over any inconsistencies about not always being 100% Best and Glorious Supreme Champion.

...which ended up being particularly entertaining, because said barbarian had godawful dice rolls and ended up whiffing almost every attempt at everything :D


My non-combative-personnel rogue ended up machine gunning down the majority of enemies we encountered, and we eventually leveled up to 2!

...and then the DM left and cut off all contact with us without a word. So yeah, fun!

Quote from: Cthulhu on August 15, 2020, 02:35:30 am

Speaking of undead, here's one I've been wanting to do.  The players have to go to an ancient ruined city to retrieve a mystical artifact, the usual shit.  When they get there, it's guarded by undead, bound to protect the artifact until the fated heroes prove their worth in the vault's deadly trials and retrieve the artifact, the usual shit.

Complication, they don't know they're dead.  There's thousands of skeletons, all still thinking they're alive, still doing normal city shit.  Chances are the players' reaction gives the game away and the city goes apeshit.  Riots in the streets, political upheaval, factions coalescing around differing approaches to the "holy shit we're skeletons what the fuck" revelation.  Worse, if the players complete their quest the spell will be broken.  Some people are still friendly to the heroes, some are hostile to these dickheads who turned their society upside down, some just want to die for real, some are trying to sabotage the trials and preserve their immortality, players have to survive a city in chaos and navigate cutthroat skeleton politics while deciding what to actually do about the macguffin.

Sounds like that city is...

(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

...boned

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 16, 2020, 06:40:23 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on August 15, 2020, 02:35:30 am

Speaking of undead, here's one I've been wanting to do.  The players have to go to an ancient ruined city to retrieve a mystical artifact, the usual shit.  When they get there, it's guarded by undead, bound to protect the artifact until the fated heroes prove their worth in the vault's deadly trials and retrieve the artifact, the usual shit.

Complication, they don't know they're dead.  There's thousands of skeletons, all still thinking they're alive, still doing normal city shit.  Chances are the players' reaction gives the game away and the city goes apeshit.  Riots in the streets, political upheaval, factions coalescing around differing approaches to the "holy shit we're skeletons what the fuck" revelation.  Worse, if the players complete their quest the spell will be broken.  Some people are still friendly to the heroes, some are hostile to these dickheads who turned their society upside down, some just want to die for real, some are trying to sabotage the trials and preserve their immortality, players have to survive a city in chaos and navigate cutthroat skeleton politics while deciding what to actually do about the macguffin.

I'm doing something similar for a quarantined city, but they're all bodaks. The outside gov has just sealed all the gates into and out of the city until they can figure out how to actually deal with millions of powerful, replicating undead. Complete with doomsday style magic sunlight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_TQZjMCbo) to keep the bodaks away from the walls at night. The bodak city folk don't understand why the whole world has turned on them, and are desperately working day and night to break free.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 19, 2020, 05:49:17 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/LrZex9Z.png)

Three month comparison of skeleton sprite :]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 19, 2020, 05:51:35 pm

[spooky scary skeletons remix intensifies]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 21, 2020, 03:43:36 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/XAddryW.png)

The culmination of my oneshot with just two of my players because the other two are out of country. One was an elephant-man paladin and the other was a minotaur fighter (both lvl 10) named Tim and Tested respectively. They were both toll collectors, with Tim having spent 45 years collecting tolls on the bridge. One day an army of elves, orcs, hobbits, humans and dwarves passed by, led by a huge Knight. Tim and Tested insisted on payment and the Knight, Sir Regi Reinauld (whom they dubbed Jesus) acquiesced, offering them an ornate necklace and five gold to cover the cost of letting his army pass. They took the five gold but declined the necklace, privately musing that it was nice of Sir Regi to not try to take the bridge by force.

Sir Regi offered to help defend but Tested had a death wish and Tim was prepared to go down with the bridge, so they wished Sir Regi a glorious death and bid him adieu. Tim proceeded to prepare some tea and set the bridge up for incineration, whilst Tim was gone an assassin continuously tried to assassinate Tested but was incapable of damaging him or inflicting his poison upon him. By the time Tim came back, Tested was cushioned with crossbow bolts but completely unharmed.

Eventually the vanguard arrives, led by a husk (bodak stats but more sun resistant in exchange for not having instant necro damage hit), the assassin and a unit of musketmen. Tim bravely faces the husk and musketmen alone whilst Tested wakes up to the sound of gunfire after sleeping in the nearby forest. The assassin tries to backstab Tested but is completely unable to break through his armour, leading to the assassin being pummeled to inches of his life. Whilst Tested negotiates with the assassin (named Cho) and manages to convince him to join the toll collector squad, Tim is fighting for his dear life, getting the life succ'd out of him by the husk whilst the musketmen fire devastating volleys. Tim manages to call upon angels to smite the husk in a brutal duel, but despite going prone into half cover still manages to fail a dex saving throw with advantage and takes another devastating volley full on.

At this point Tim is on death's door and Tested goes to go kill the musketmen. By the time Tested finishes slaughtering the musketmen, who despite all of Tested's efforts to make them break and flee held their ground bravely to the last man, Tim had two successful death saves and two failures. Tested makes it to Tim to try and stabilise him, but between him and Cho, neither of them understands medicine. Tim just barely passes his last death save, waking up with 1 HP.

Cue some of the best RP I'd ever seen, with the two of them just arguing over whether to destroy the bridge or not. Tim would rather die with the bridge which had been his whole life purpose, whilst Tested shocked him with emotional pleads and insults, breaking Tim out of his mid-life crisis. They burn the bridge and in the next four hours a squadron of skeletons arrive. They take turns taking potshots at the skeletons but don't know how to use guns, damaging a few bones but killing none of them. As the hours go by hundreds of thousands of skeletons amass on the river but stop at the burnt bridge. Eventually a husk arrives and they taunt the husk, ignoring its wicked tricks, and set off to go find Jesus and his caravan of troops - with the end goal of finding a ferry and making it to drift city.

There was also a long running joke that everyone was shocked the toll collectors had no idea  there was a civil war going on, and Tim and Tested both defended themselves by saying they hadn't left the toll bridge in decades and months respectively.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 29, 2020, 10:13:36 am

Adventure idea: a famous old bard wishes to have a letter containing a scathing insult hand-delivered to their ex-partner and adventuring buddy, who has since become a lich. The bard is willing to pay a massive amount for this service.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 29, 2020, 10:18:47 am

Consider: A bard lich as an eternal coked-out 70s rockstar, unable to die from their bad habits and thus having escalated them all the more.

Behold the Chamber of Groupies! Dare you enter my magical realm?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 29, 2020, 10:26:36 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on August 29, 2020, 10:18:47 am

Dare you enter my magical realm?

If you have to ask the answer is no.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 29, 2020, 11:21:33 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on August 29, 2020, 10:18:47 am

Consider: A bard lich as an eternal coked-out 70s rockstar, unable to die from their bad habits and thus having escalated them all the more.

Behold the Chamber of Groupies! Dare you enter my magical realm?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://balladeer.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/mick-jagger-old.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2020, 12:15:47 pm

What is dead may never die

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on August 31, 2020, 09:15:57 am

What do you people use to make maps of continents? I've only done location maps and paint has been enough for me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 31, 2020, 09:18:14 am

I GM Shadowrun when I GM, but have you tried zooming in a bunch?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8431/7604852318_869b9c040c_b.jpg)

Edit: Does anyone have advice on creating a parody Oompa Loompa song? I have a brilliant stupid idea.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on August 31, 2020, 09:53:43 am

Quote from: delphonso on August 31, 2020, 09:15:57 am

What do you people use to make maps of continents? I've only done location maps and paint has been enough for me.

Usually hexographer, but I rarely actually do continent-scale maps.  If we're going by typical medieval, which my games are usually low fantasy enough to use, a hundred square miles is more than enough for multiple campaigns and 99% of people are only vaguely aware if at all of what's going on beyond that range.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 31, 2020, 10:14:57 am

That map is terrible. Norway is nearly as big as Sweden on it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 31, 2020, 10:26:29 am

Everything about that map offends me. It's like a daring vision of a Fireflyesque superfuture where the Heavenly Space Empire exports shitty Chinese knockoff Earths.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 31, 2020, 10:52:58 am

I'm fairly okay with Denmark just being a sliver in the sea and Ireland makes a very cute turtle

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 31, 2020, 11:12:49 am

Quote from: scriver on August 31, 2020, 10:14:57 am

That map is terrible. Norway is nearly as big as Sweden on it.

It's just there to show where this chunk of land is relative to parts you'd recognize by shape, so most of the rest looks like it was an afterthought. Being fan-made probably doesn't help the quality.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 31, 2020, 07:09:57 pm

Suez channel swapping places with the straits of Gibraltar is hilarious

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 31, 2020, 07:14:17 pm

I'm still not totally clear why Tiny Crimea is highlighted, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 31, 2020, 08:45:07 pm

First session GMing complete. Party of Charismatic Bear, Wizard Cat, and Perceptive Crow stole the shiny Biotic Crystal power source from the bank vault and installed it into the two century old abandoned warship Deep Fall before making their escape under the waves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 01, 2020, 02:53:28 am

I'll admit to being one of those terrible players when the GM came out with his hand-crafted map of his world. I immediately went and took the party off the edge of the map, completely bypassing the wonderful lore he'd created.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on September 01, 2020, 02:58:41 am

Got it, get wasted and draw a map of europe with my eyes closed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 01, 2020, 09:20:49 am

Quote from: Jimmy on September 01, 2020, 02:53:28 am

I'll admit to being one of those terrible players when the GM came out with his hand-crafted map of his world. I immediately went and took the party off the edge of the map, completely bypassing the wonderful lore he'd created.

Hahaha my players tried that, choosing the map edge that seemed the most boring. They chose the Ocean of Irrelevance, UNLEASHING MY UNSPEAKABLE NAVAL CAMPAIGN

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 01, 2020, 09:23:41 am

This is why you start your campaign at the first dungeon.  There's a difference between giving players freedom and letting them walk all over you.  There's a social contract to D&D and I enforce it the same way I enforce the NAP, with short-range ballistic missiles.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 01, 2020, 09:27:06 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on September 01, 2020, 09:23:41 am

This is why you start your campaign at the first dungeon.  There's a difference between giving players freedom and letting them walk all over you.  There's a social contract to D&D and I enforce it the same way I enforce the NAP, with short-range ballistic missiles.

I take a different approach, running it like DF. I prepare loads of stats for various NPCs and critters, then improv different names, fluff and motivations on the fly. Then I throw my players in a dynamic situation and let them run with it, at that point I'm not fighting to beat the players onto my path, I'm just facilitating the RP

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 01, 2020, 09:27:50 am

Mutually Assured RP

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on September 01, 2020, 10:19:36 am

Quote from: delphonso on September 01, 2020, 02:58:41 am

Got it, get wasted and draw a map of europe with my eyes closed.

Exactly. Or whatever continent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 01, 2020, 02:18:44 pm

Lately I've had an idea for a collaborative world building session 0 type of thing for an evil campaign, where the players each create a character that works for a Sauron-esque dark lord, then works backwards to create the society allied to the dark lord they come from, then the world is filled in with the 'good' counterparts of the player made races.

Given the nature of people I've played with over the years this would likely result in a gloriously eclectic and dysfunctional set of societies with the dark lord serving as the sole unifying factor for both sides. Despite how chaotic it would almost certainly be, it's still something I want to try.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 02, 2020, 06:06:34 am

Moria goblin gang gang

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on September 02, 2020, 11:27:21 am

Of interest might be the FFG setting Midnight, who's premise is essentially to be Middle Earth a thousand years after Sauron's (mostly) final victory.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 04, 2020, 06:10:21 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on September 02, 2020, 11:27:21 am

Of interest might be the FFG setting Midnight, who's premise is essentially to be Middle Earth a thousand years after Sauron's (mostly) final victory.

That sounds pretty dank. Does it have wizard Saruman?

Also how do you guys feel about fashion vs practicool? I've noticed I tend to drift around monks, rogues and barbarians just so I can maximize my fashion game, as normal clothes don't affect unarmoured defence.

Yet...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/Dh5nRVI.png)

Why not heavy armoured fashion?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: pikachu17 on September 07, 2020, 07:48:42 am

The 5e spell Major Image says touching the Image reveals it to be an illusion if you touch as you pass through it, but what if you make an Image of something that can be reasonably passed through, like fog, smoke, or yourself saying "Bwahaha, you can't hurt me now that I'm ethereal!"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 07, 2020, 07:56:53 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on September 07, 2020, 07:48:42 am

The 5e spell Major Image says touching the Image reveals it to be an illusion if you touch as you pass through it, but what if you make an Image of something that can be reasonably passed through, like fog, smoke, or yourself saying "Bwahaha, you can't hurt me now that I'm ethereal!"?

I'd give the usual Investigation check to "spot the thread" and disbelieve an illusion in that case. After all, real fog and smoke still react to air currents, real ethereal things interact with light, and so on. You could argue that the spell can replicate those effects, but that's where the spell save DC comes in: it takes a good wizard to make it believable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 09, 2020, 04:01:06 pm

Dumb idea for a group of NPCs, the Giant Knights of (Kingdom).

So basic idea is that an insane king decided to order a bunch of people to go tell chivalric romances to the hill giants that lived within the realm, hoping to keep them distracted so they'd stop raiding farms. It worked way better than expected and the giants started roaming around fighting bandits and slaying monsters.

After a while the king decides some of these giants have earned knighthoods, grants them their titles and has some blacksmiths make them weapons suited to their station. The expense is ridiculous and nearly bankrupts the nation, so the king decides to go to war with their neighbours in order to do some looting and beef up the treasury, the giants participate and perform well despite being thick as bricks. As a result their nominal leader is made a baron or similar title. As a further reward the king orders a castle be built for them, squandering the money taken from the neighbouring lands.

During the lengthy and costly process of building a casle big enough for the giants the various nobles get fed up of the king and his lunacy and foment a popular rebellion. The giants get tasked with stopping it, but after stepping on a bunch of farmers it clicks in their brains that the king isn't acting like a king from a chivalric story, and overthrow him themselves and let the other nobles pick a new king.

The new king then tasks the giants with inane ill defined quests to get them to leave the kingdom for periods of years and tries to get on with normal day to day stuff rather than managing a herd of 20 foot behemoths with the brain of a child.

As a result there's just a bunch of huge knights walking around bellowing questions about fountains of eternal youth, golden fleeces and holy grails at people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on September 09, 2020, 04:55:22 pm

I want to be a steel-clad 20 foot tall rogue.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 09, 2020, 05:17:36 pm

Gough is best knight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on September 11, 2020, 03:35:09 pm

"Quit smoking" is now a valid Shadowrunner background story. (https://www.little-gamers.com/2020/09/11/the-unwilling-repercussions-of-a-weak-mind)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 12, 2020, 05:05:03 am

It definitely is

"That's me. You're probably wondering how I ended up in a shootout between a dragon, corporate aztechnicians, three trolls and a cyborg. Well, it all started the day I smoked my last nicostick..."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on September 13, 2020, 03:32:31 am

That's so damn good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 18, 2020, 08:28:56 am

So I've been thinking about the metaphysics for a setting I'm working on, and I think I've hit upon a way to fit demons/angels and so forth into a setting with no other planes or provable deities.

They're made by mortals, not spiritually but physically crafted from dead bodies and objects and imbued with life by rituals that bind a spirit of dubious origin into the form. The spirits origins are a subject of debate, and they are extremely unhelpful about the matter when asked, so mortals attribute their origin to various gods, other worlds, the afterlife and other unverifiable mechanisms.

Angels and demons are mostly the same in terms of behavior, being generally sociopathic and prone to major personality flaws, but angels are made through a more costly ritual that allows them to be imbued with desired qualities, like loyalty, mercy or honour, while demons have to develop such concepts over time and through their own immoral worldview.

Demons are made by creating a fascimile of their shape out of human and animal body parts, a D&D bulezau for example being crafted from a decaying human corpse with it's arms and legs extended with the bones from another human, a snake's body attached like a tail and the head of a large goat or small cow placed where the human head would have been. After a ritual the being lurches to unwholesome life, ready to maim and murder, but capable of being pressed into service with magic or sufficient bribery or brute force.

Angels likewise require a body be made for them, but also incorporate precious materials into their body. The heart must be replaced by a ruby, sapphire or emerald of roughly the same size as the host's original heart, and their eyes must be replaced with spheres of pure gold. Each eye can be inscribed with a word, imbuing the resulting angel with that word as an unchangeable part of their personality. Due to their generally unpleasant personalities one of the eyes of an angel is almost always insribed with words like loyalty or duty, bestowing an immediate level of control over them to their creator. If an angels inscribed words conflict they cannot take the action that would cause the conflict, so an angel with loyalty and mercy could not execute a defenseless person even if commanded to, while an angel with loyalty and wrath could not refrain from killing an enemy even if commanded to.


Demons generally either kill their creator, if they were unprepared, or serve them until such time that the demon has reasonable cause to flee their service. Young demons do not fear death, happily fighting to the death in service of a master or simply to slake their own desire for bloodshed. As demons grow older, their mind develops complexities like any mortal, some become cowards, or tricksters or scholars. They never truly develop empathy however, always being unable to co-exist with mortals without the fear of immediate consequences keeping them in line.

Most angels, being imbued with loyalty, are immediately given an important task and accompanying restrictions. Most are made as guardians, protecting a person or place from harm, some are made to be fearless and obediant soldiers, though the expense involved is prohibitive, some are crafted to avenge a wrong inflicted upon their creator. Some are simply weapons of terror, imbued with hate and wrath and unleashed upon the lands of enemies. Angels made solely with benevolent words like mercy and charity are rare, but it is not unheard of to find a lesser angel crafted by a philanthropic ritualist giving what aid it can to those in need.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on September 23, 2020, 10:53:13 pm

Why would anyone ever create a demon then?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Superdorf on September 23, 2020, 11:10:54 pm

'Cos it's cheaper, of course!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 24, 2020, 07:57:27 am

They kind of just sound like sentient golems in that case.

My game world has reincarnation, and gods occasionally pluck their greatest champions out of the cycle on their death, preserving the soul and remaking it into an angel, which destroys most of the person's original personality and subjectivity, leaving just the holy attributes that made that particular incarnation a divine champion.  Good and evil gods all live in their own realms at the top of reality and they all have angels. 

Devils live at the bottom of reality and extract crystallized sin from the heavy souls that fall down there, using it as currency and fuel for weird technology.  They're not really evil, their methods are excruciating but they still perform a necessary service for the cycle of reincarnation.  They're cynical industrialists and their only god is the almighty sindollar.

Demons are just the abyss wearing flesh.  The abyss surrounds reality and wants to digest it, just a miasma of hateful energy.  When the abyss leaks into reality it congeals into demon shapes, but the demons don't have any individuality or permanent existence, they're just appendages of the abyss and they dissolve when the portal is closed again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 24, 2020, 09:14:48 am

There are many gods for many specific things, and even more hells, each serving some nebulous and esoteric purpose, or none at all. There is no afterlife for any dominantly chaotic people, as that would make too much sense. Instead, chaotic folks are sent off elsewhere, to journey in even more nonsensical lands. Lawful folks, meanwhile, get to hang out with modrons until they get kicked out for having trace amounts of morality corrupting their lawfulness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 24, 2020, 11:12:10 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on September 24, 2020, 07:57:27 am

They kind of just sound like sentient golems in that case.

I conceive of them as being truly alive once given form. Stitches, nails, staples or whatever else is used to hold the vessel together just melts into the new being, which then lives, and can eat, drink, sleep and assuming the plumbing is intact after the transformation, procreate (though I don't think they'd produce demonic/angelic offspring, instead producing mortals or monsters.)

Sort of like if you could turn a scarecrow into a flesh and blood human by inviting a soul into it, but with more meat. Unborn spirits birthed through dead flesh. The appropriately formed body is an invitation in itself, the rituals are like vacancy signs for the meat motel.

What I'm on the fence about is if the unclothed spirits can speak to people and teach them how to give them form, or if the way it was done first is something no living mortal or spirit actually knows and spirits don't entirely exist before becoming living beings. The former allows for powerful spirits that die and get reborn by their own artifice elsewhere, the latter makes them more mortal and unpredictable.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 28, 2020, 04:32:31 am

In a new, different DnD game now thanks to the GM from the old one vanishing off the face of the earth and nobody particular caring to follow after him.

The bard player is playing a bard again, and is in fact playing the same bard that he's just ported over because he felt he didn't get enough of a chance to live out that character's story.

We've just had our first proper night in an inn, and the bard (who is very bard) made sure to have his first "I scan the room for wenches" moment. Almost getting clocked by a large she-orc, he was undeterred in his quest for romance and set his sights on new conquests.

Namely, me.

One natural 20 plus mods Charisma check later, and my bookish, socially awkward academic has had strange new feelings awakened inside of him that he never knew he could feel for another man. Particularly not one half his size. And obsessed with griffins.

Thankfully the DM allowed for awkwardness to win the day and I managed to resist the urge to follow this charming halfling back to his room for the night. If only just.



I have to say, I'm feeling slightly uncomfortable  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on September 28, 2020, 08:00:54 am

I once played a half-elf bard of ambiguous sex who I alternated gender pronouns when describing, and another player decided they'd solve the mystery by using their charismatic sorcerer to check "under the hood." Well, I let my character be 'seduced,' the two departed to a secluded location, we let the rest play out 'off-screen,' and I stated that the night was definitely enjoyed by the participants, but the sorcerer still didn't have a clue the next day.

I left it up to them to imagine how that one might have came about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 28, 2020, 09:37:45 am

Half-elves are actually a single-sexed species. Between their legs is actually a stinger of amnesia-inducing venom, whereas their sexual organ is a tongue-like ovipositor in the mouth. About four months after the congress, the sorcerer is going to be very surprised...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 30, 2020, 02:44:15 pm

Obligatory Elfwood (http://fav.me/dbxvtch). Omnisexual captain jack bardness is a cliche I always find too amusing to shut down

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 25, 2020, 07:28:24 am

So, was just looking at the description of Goodberry (while fiddling with ideas of value picks for a non-spellcaster picking up Magic Initiate), and...

Quote from: Goodberry

Up to ten berries appear in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. A creature can use its action to eat one berry. Eating a berry restores 1 hit point, and the berry provides enough nourishment to sustain a creature for one day.

The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell.

Emphasis mine.

Goodberry is a spell with a duration of Instantaneous, so... Does that mean that the berries are infused with an instant flash of magic, before immediately reverting to non-magical state? Does the magic matter? Are the mundane berries no longer capable of sustaining a grown man for 24 hours, or are they just nonmagically nutritious enough to do so? The spell says that they lose their potency if not eaten within 24 hours of the casting, but "potency" isn't specifically magic... It's obvious it means the berry's ability to satiate someone for a day, but what's it actually mean? The berry's THC content? Erection?

Also I love how it just says "creature". Human? Nourished. Gnome? Nourished. Raven? Nourished. Tarrasque? Nourished.


Thanks for coming to my SHITpost.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 25, 2020, 07:37:13 am

New plan defeat Tarrasque - throw ten goodberries in its mouth.

If we read duration and instantaneous to mean the effect wears off as soon as it is casted, the rest of the spell just informs you that regular berries are really fucking good in the Forgotten Realms.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 25, 2020, 07:54:01 am

Well, rose hips are the #2 most important food source in a survival situation

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 25, 2020, 09:31:57 am

The Goodberry thing got me curious about food and water rations in general (in addition to the fact that the campaign I'm currently in seems to be taking an exceptionally forgiving stance on such logistics), and... Um.

Quote from: Book

A character needs one pound of food per day and can make food last longer by subsisting on half rations.

Quote from: Also Book

Rations (1 day) = 2lbs.

Every other food item mentioned = N/A lbs.

And that's just the start! "A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum of 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a character automatically suffers one level of exhaustion. A normal day of eating resets the count of days without food to zero."

So, apparently characters actually only need to eat once every 4th day or so. And that fasting period is completely reset with a single pound of food.

To make matters worse, there's even a mention of "making food last longer" by eating half rations, where each day eating half rations only counts as half a day spent not eating. ...you may be seeing a slight issue here.

Full rations: 1lb of food per 1 day:

*8 days = 8lbs of food, starvation counter at 0

Half rations: 1/2lb of food per 1 day:

*8 days = 4lbs of food, starvation counter at 4 (a character with no positive Constitution will now have to eat a full pound in order to reset the counter and avoid exhaustion)

Vogue diet = 1lb of food per 4 days:

*8 days = 2lbs of food, starvation counter at 0


And that's for someone with no positive CONMOD, it only gets nuttier the more Constitution they have (which does make sense in a way, except the final result is still silly).

Don't get me started on the water requirements and associated containers...


EDIT: As an unrelated aside, wew... Who could have foreseen that the Chaotic Neutral Halfling Bard player might actually be a little bit of a problem element in our game? Talking over other players, talking over the DM, derailing the narrative, telling other players what to do with their chars, trying to fudge details to benefit himself... Woof.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 25, 2020, 09:45:54 pm

Voguer diet = 1 berry of food per 4 days.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 25, 2020, 09:47:48 pm

I'm still a big fan of Dark Sun's water rules, particularly the one where it explicitly turns your alignment off if you get too thirsty.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 25, 2020, 09:49:58 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on October 25, 2020, 09:47:48 pm

I'm still a big fan of Dark Sun's water rules, particularly the one where it explicitly turns your alignment off if you get too thirsty.

That does still give me chills, and I only heard stories second-hand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 26, 2020, 01:04:36 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 25, 2020, 09:31:57 am

The Goodberry thing got me curious about food and water rations in general (in addition to the fact that the campaign I'm currently in seems to be taking an exceptionally forgiving stance on such logistics), and... Um.

Quote from: Book

A character needs one pound of food per day and can make food last longer by subsisting on half rations.

Quote from: Also Book

Rations (1 day) = 2lbs.

Every other food item mentioned = N/A lbs.

And that's just the start! "A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum of 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a character automatically suffers one level of exhaustion. A normal day of eating resets the count of days without food to zero."

So, apparently characters actually only need to eat once every 4th day or so. And that fasting period is completely reset with a single pound of food.

To make matters worse, there's even a mention of "making food last longer" by eating half rations, where each day eating half rations only counts as half a day spent not eating. ...you may be seeing a slight issue here.

Full rations: 1lb of food per 1 day:

*8 days = 8lbs of food, starvation counter at 0

Half rations: 1/2lb of food per 1 day:

*8 days = 4lbs of food, starvation counter at 4 (a character with no positive Constitution will now have to eat a full pound in order to reset the counter and avoid exhaustion)

Vogue diet = 1lb of food per 4 days:

*8 days = 2lbs of food, starvation counter at 0


And that's for someone with no positive CONMOD, it only gets nuttier the more Constitution they have (which does make sense in a way, except the final result is still silly).

Don't get me started on the water requirements and associated containers...


EDIT: As an unrelated aside, wew... Who could have foreseen that the Chaotic Neutral Halfling Bard player might actually be a little bit of a problem element in our game? Talking over other players, talking over the DM, derailing the narrative, telling other players what to do with their chars, trying to fudge details to benefit himself... Woof.

Somebody needs a sit down

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 26, 2020, 01:05:58 am

Yeah, the devs!  These things worked pretty well in 3.5, in 5e it's "do whatever" but they don't admit that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 26, 2020, 01:33:30 am

No I referred to the last edit, I was just too lazy to trim my post to the relevant content ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 26, 2020, 07:26:59 am

I don't think you're expected to actually read or follow rules for most things that aren't combat.  Nobody cares about wilderness travel and logistics anymore and the people who do are the heavy duty grogs who have their own rules for it, so the market for official 5e rules for such things is zero.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2020, 07:47:17 am

Jesus Christ why are tiefling players always so fucking horrendous. Every time I give the benefit of the doubt I always come to regret it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 26, 2020, 07:58:12 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2020, 07:47:17 am

Jesus Christ why are tiefling players always so fucking horrendous. Every time I give the benefit of the doubt I always come to regret it

What are they doing?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 26, 2020, 08:22:20 am

They're just so /hot/.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 26, 2020, 09:08:42 am

I'm attempting to short circuit the tiefling problem in general with my campaign, in that it's recently post-chaos-invasion and demonic corruption is like radioactive fallout. A generation out almost 10% of the population is tieflings and by necessity it's become normal.  No hard life for you, no misunderstood hero for you, congratulations, nobody cares that you've got red skin and horns.

No demonic parents, demons aren't interested in such things and don't have the capacity anyway, demons are a single entity that occupies the void between the planes and grows bodies around itself when it penetrates into realspace.  Devils can make tieflings, but devils aren't evil so hopefully less allure there.  Devils are dicks, but they perform necessary soul hygiene to keep reincarnation going.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 26, 2020, 09:11:26 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 26, 2020, 09:08:42 am

No hard life for you, no misunderstood hero for you, congratulations, nobody cares that you've got red skin and horns.

Oh, that. So far, without at all intending it, my solution has quite consistently been insisting on having all players be actual for-real-guilty criminals.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 26, 2020, 09:26:59 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2020, 07:47:17 am

Jesus Christ why are tiefling players always so fucking horrendous. Every time I give the benefit of the doubt I always come to regret it

I'll play a tiefling with you. He's looks exactly like an ordinary human but every time he farts it smells of rotten eggs. He's very embarrassed by it of course, like any normal person would be, so he tries really hard to avoid gassifying food. He keeps in contact with his childhood sweetheart, and both his parents are alive (he writes to them often), and he visits his completely unburntand unpillaged home village where he was raised by his uncle as often as he can although not as often as he would want -- standard grown up responsibilities and the like of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on October 26, 2020, 11:01:01 am

This is funny to me, because I've never had any problem with tiefling players.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 26, 2020, 11:10:58 am

I you can't smell it...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 26, 2020, 12:13:46 pm

Back in my day we only had half elves and half orks for our racial what am I angst.  We took our -2 cha and we liked it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 26, 2020, 12:45:22 pm

My associations with the race are just as being the second biggest Mary Sue bait behind Drow, but not necessarily "problem players" beyond that minor little hiccup...

Personally, I kinda liked the idea of a Tiefling Celestial Warlock... Someone so guilty and shameful over their fiendish heritage that they'd bind themselves to a celestial entity and devote themselves to "good deeds" in an attempt to gain redemption.


In unrelated news, Portent is great fun.

"I cast [debilitating spell] on the big bad guy. He fails his save."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2020, 04:13:16 pm

Quote from: Maximum Spin on October 26, 2020, 07:58:12 am

What are they doing?

Every fucking time I let any of them play a tiefling they start filling out a bingo card of the worst characteristics possible. It's like something about the race just opens the floodgates to every single stupid idea that should never have been allowed to flood the poor town of carefully constructed campaign sessions.

The greatest sin: session ending edginess
Great sins: a focus on the superficial instead of character. A yearning for broken power instead of teamwork. Complete verisimilitude breaking anal focus on useless details like Aragorn's tax policy.
Moderate sins: self-declared self-inserting instead of the character having a character.
Minor sins: Not knowing the rules to their "broken OP build."

They keep gravitating to so called "broken" builds, which they clearly scrounged from reddit and giantitp, instead of doing the groundwork of reading the rules & character building their own character. These broken builds are ones I discover that are all usually much weaker than a straight class of their calibre, and all weaker than straight wizard, but they don't stop going on about how broken they are to the point where they've infected all of my players with the idea that multiclassing is a gateway to sinful power. This shouldn't annoy me as much but I love making ridiculous character concepts (characters with expertise in all skills & tools, characters with insane movement speed, characters that are really good at cooking food or have the fastest reflexes mechanically possible) that are fun but weak. Yet now all of my players believe I am walking around with OP as fuck doom nuke multiclasses when I've only ever played straight barbs and rogues. It's turning me into forever DM.

They keep skipping every opportunity to actually develop their character, to the point where when they were speaking to an important NPC they repeated "I'm a tiefling" three times in a row. Tiefling is not a substitue for a personality. Notably I forced my other players to play human characters before they played exotic and monster races so they learned how to develop personalities that weren't dependent on what you are. Despite all my best efforts to prompt them to come up with character traits, ambitions, aversions, both in character and out of character - they respond out of character by saying their personality is the tiefling's personality and respond in character by saying that the "socioeconomic conditions of being a persecuted minority means I have to be a hired killer" despite no one even asking what their occupation was.

The best for last; they keep being so overpoweringly edgy. Which is doubly damning when this character is supposed to be chaotic good and supposed to have their personality in real life. Raping children is not a chaotic good act, and I don't care if it's what your character would do: make another character.

FUCK

I didn't even invite them into the group. I'd kick them the hell out if they didn't recently suffer grievous loss. But they strike me ass one who is using irony as a shield to engage in creepy fucking behaviour, this doesn't strike me as someone making a dead baby joke in poor taste.

And it's always the fucking tiefling players.

Quote from: scriver on October 26, 2020, 09:26:59 am

I'll play a tiefling with you. He's looks exactly like an ordinary human but every time he farts it smells of rotten eggs. He's very embarrassed by it of course, like any normal person would be, so he tries really hard to avoid gassifying food. He keeps in contact with his childhood sweetheart, and both his parents are alive (he writes to them often), and he visits his completely unburntand unpillaged home village where he was raised by his uncle as often as he can although not as often as he would want -- standard grown up responsibilities and the like of course.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://1d4chan.org/images/d/d4/Tiefling_table.gif)

I long for the day any of my players use the tiefling snowflake chart. There are legitimately a lot of interesting mutation choices, especially given how the special effects interact with social situations (imagine not being able to go to the cathedral with your dudes). But no one, not even my tiefling players want to use them.
But your character idea is amazing. I might steal parts of it to incorporate with my character idea for an edgy lone wolf who only works alone, but just so happens to be emotionally dependent on their companions colleagues people they happen to work alongside.

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 26, 2020, 09:08:42 am

I'm attempting to short circuit the tiefling problem in general with my campaign, in that it's recently post-chaos-invasion and demonic corruption is like radioactive fallout. A generation out almost 10% of the population is tieflings and by necessity it's become normal.  No hard life for you, no misunderstood hero for you, congratulations, nobody cares that you've got red skin and horns.

No demonic parents, demons aren't interested in such things and don't have the capacity anyway, demons are a single entity that occupies the void between the planes and grows bodies around itself when it penetrates into realspace.  Devils can make tieflings, but devils aren't evil so hopefully less allure there.  Devils are dicks, but they perform necessary soul hygiene to keep reincarnation going.

Lmao this might be the only way. Trick my player into thinking they're playing an actual person instead of a walking stereotype

Quote from: Kagus on October 26, 2020, 12:45:22 pm

My associations with the race are just as being the second biggest Mary Sue bait behind Drow, but not necessarily "problem players" beyond that minor little hiccup...

Incidentally in the game they're DM'ing, we're currently being herded from Drow city to Drow city in what was supposed to be a "grimdark" campaign. What that means is we started off as slaves herded on a sky prison, to fugitives herded to the desert, to railroaded away from the desert into the city full of slavers we just avoided, to being pursued by the entire city, to becoming gladiator sacrifices - then getting attacked for no reason by the high priests who just tried to have us sacrificed. So many people have tried to kill us and we are yet to learn the single name of a single character. Despite that, the DM keeps telling us out of character how killing that one drow, or that one drow, or that one drow has dramatically altered the world lore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 26, 2020, 04:20:04 pm

I did play a tiefling in 5e, but her race wasn't really relevant other than getting chased out of the temple and most people being confused about what she is.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 26, 2020, 04:26:33 pm

Everyone's a lone wolf who only works alone until they run out of paper in the loo

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 26, 2020, 04:41:36 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 26, 2020, 04:26:33 pm

Everyone's a lone wolf who only works alone until they run out of paper in the loo

Joke's on you my tiefling druid doesn't believe in the loo or its paper.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 26, 2020, 06:02:08 pm

What a coincidence, my swarm of cranium rats character is also a lone wolf!


Also, I was fiddling around recently with the concept of a non-combatant... Fighter.

Battle Master maneuvers have a few different options that don't actually require or involve you making an attack or using the Battle Master DC at all, such as Rally or Commander's Strike (which does not in fact involve the commander making a strike). Throw on some funky feat for juicy utility and you're good to go as the strange non-fighty fightyman who mostly uses spells that are not spells.

Throw a shield into the mix and you can consistently do stuff with your reaction and fighting style too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2020, 09:30:42 pm

Playing the party serjeant and using commander's strike exclusively would be pretty bants

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 26, 2020, 09:55:15 pm

That reminds me, wasn't there a no-attack build for 4th edition's warlord class?  I feel like I remember the term "Lazylord" and one of my coplayers doing that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 27, 2020, 09:36:48 am

A few levels of Mastermind Rogue for 30 foot range Help as a bonus action would be a good addition to the concept.



I've got a bit of an odd character idea in my head lately, a Zealot Barbarian/Divine Soul Sorcerer. Since they were young they've had visions of a mysterious lady when they dream, and they've become a wandering champion of sorts, seeking to assemble an army to use to help the lady of their visions claim her rightful place as queen.

Thing is the lady in question is Pale Night, a demon lord of the Abyss who aspires to claim the title of Queen of Chaos by having one of her children or champions kill Demogorgon and take his place as Prince of Demons. The character knows this, knows the unspeakable horror that is Pale Night, but genuinely loves her and seeks to further her goals without thought of reward.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 27, 2020, 04:35:16 pm

Why that particular class combo, if I might ask?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 27, 2020, 05:13:20 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 27, 2020, 04:35:16 pm

Why that particular class combo, if I might ask?

Barbarian sworn to a divine/blasphemous existence of perpetual war, sorcerer born to fulfil a holy or unholy purpose. Thematically they fit well, and I like gish builds. Would probably be Barb 3 for the subclass then straight Sorc.

Zealot barb has the bonus of being ressurected only costing the spell slot, no diamonds, which I suspect would be something that would come up from time to time given the fact I'd rather be spending money on soldiers and supplies than on diamonds for the revolving door on the afterlife. With the Divine Soul's access to cleric spells I would probably pick a lot of divination spells, demon summoning spells and maybe some necromancy, Shadow Blade would be a must though.

I don't think it would be a good build, being essentially a worse bladesinger/sorcadin/padlock, but it's an idea I like anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on October 27, 2020, 09:52:59 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 27, 2020, 05:13:20 pm

Would probably be Barb 3 for the subclass then straight Sorc.

Unless you really feel a need to have 9th level spells or an extra metamagic option, I would probably advise to stay until 5th level so you can pick up Extra Attack.

Though, granted, that does hold back your spell progression for a few levels, or, otherwise, you have to stagger to make it work.


This reminds me that I really don't like the 5th edition multiclassing method or the 3rd edition one it was based on, or the AD&D dual classing rules that that seemed to be based on.

If I had to say my favorite method of multiclassing, it would either be how Dungeon World does it or how Worlds Without Number (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mGcUfkxnWt8vF8Ole0Bsidlm0eLp8ovh) does it (link to the current beta rules, which Kevin Crawford has said is okay to share. Also, here's the current Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/worlds-without-number) if you weren't aware of it).

I think Dungeon World is the best for rules that let you pick small bits of other classes to strap onto your class, whereas Worlds Without Number is good for letting you mix two different classes that progress at the same to feel like a proper gestalt of the two.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 28, 2020, 02:00:29 pm

I'm distracting myself with icky combat-effective builds like polearm battle masters, when I should really be focusing on more important things like P O P S I C L E   M A N


Prestidigitation
This spell is a minor magical trick that novice spellcasters use for practice. You create one of the following magical effects within range:

• You chill, warm, or flavor up to 1 cubic foot of nonliving material for 1 hour.

Shape Water
You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:

• You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.
• You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.
• You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.

Both are Wizard cantrips, and can therefore be used at-will.

Combining their strengths, you are able to flavor, color, and freeze approximately 7 gallons of water worth of popsicles (provided you can argue that a popsicle matrix is a "simple shape", otherwise it's just one really huge popsicle that may need some help) for an hour. Sticks not included.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Dostoevsky on October 28, 2020, 02:11:28 pm

Wait, flavoring is a cantrip? Why aren't there gobs of restaurant-running wizard apprentices or the like? Sure, 1 hour means you can't have some giant wizard version of little debbie snack cakes, but that'd be plenty of time for a local fixture of cheap nutritious treats with artificial flavors?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 28, 2020, 02:16:32 pm

but if we just have wizards flavor things we don't have to invade fantasy!india for cool spices

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on October 28, 2020, 03:42:30 pm

That's literally a thing in Eberron with magewright cooks who know Prestidigitation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 29, 2020, 06:17:35 pm

Consider the scale though. Prestidigitation can have up to three simultaneous non-instantaneous effects active at any one time. If your cook can only put out three specially-flavored dishes an hour, that's probably not going to bode particularly well for your big ol' restaurant.

Of course, this brings up the issue of dilution. If you use prestidigitation to flavor a cubic foot of water (roughly 7 gallons) with an intensely strong flavor and then lightly sprinkle that water on a number of other dishes, do the other dishes take on a fraction of the flavor and distribute it into the dish as a whole, or do you get the full flavor but only when you're specifically (exclusively?) "eating" the flavored water? What exactly is the difference, even?


If you flavor water and then boil it into steam, can you "taste" the steam? Does it register as a smell? How much steam would that even make?

The spell Create or Destroy Water will let you make 10 gallons of potable water (liquid) or a 30' cube of fog (gas). So presumably if the ratio of 1 gallon per 3 cubic feet holds for other spells, then you should be able to make slightly more than 21 foot³ of flavored steam, approximately, from the maximum amount of water that can be flavored at once.

That's more than enough to hotbox a room with beef stroganoff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 29, 2020, 06:37:07 pm

I say spell fizzles if the targeted matter is destroyed by being split up or phase changed. Because that's the lame way to rule it and DnD spell tend to favor those.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 30, 2020, 05:10:13 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on October 29, 2020, 06:37:07 pm

I say spell fizzles if the targeted matter is destroyed by being split up or phase changed. Because that's the lame way to rule it and DnD spell tend to favor those.

Man, you're just like those no-fun fuddy-duddys who say I can't use Grease and Heat Metal together to turn the dungeon floor into an enormous skillet for frying up an inhumane amount of bacon...


Also, for no reason in particular... A Red Dragon Sorcerer 6/Celestial Warlock 6/Arcana Cleric 8 with 20 CHA and WIS would be able to cast Green-Flame Blade for:

Primary Target, 1d8+5(we're using Shillelagh from the Warlock's pact of the tome)bludgeoning, +3d8+5 fire

Secondary Target, 3d8+10 fire

...with an additional +10 fire that can be applied to either the primary or the secondary target (or even split up into two +5s, one for each). So that *could* be a 3d8+20 on the secondary target, which does not have an attack roll or saving throw  :P... I remember reading someone's idea of carrying around a bunch of tied-up rats that you could whip out and hit then hit them as the primary target of the attack, letting the big high-AC monster take the unavoidable secondary damage for the cost of one very squishy, toasty rat carcass.


Is maximizing a melee cantrip an effective goal for a level 20 three-way multiclass? Probably not.

It's good dumb fun though.


EDIT: Just had our first game of CAH-DnD, where our character creation and all dice rolls were determined by drawing from Cards Against Humanity and then interpreting the results.

'Twas fun! One of our players had to excuse themselves from the room for a moment because their stomachs had cramped up, they were laughing so hard.


EDIT2: So, I've been thinking a little bit about the problem with Guidance... That problem being that it's a bit too applicable, and being a cantrip means that there's no real out-of-combat restriction on its use. This means that once a player has it, you can either bog the game down with shouting by requiring that the players announce it every time it's cast, or just yield and contend with every ability check made within range of the caster will have that extra +d4 on its roll.

For one thing, it's inordinately useful and can tilt the scales of just about every check DC they come up against, making balancing trickier. For another, it's disruptive to gameplay when used and tracked in the normal fashion (and if it's not used specifically because of its powerful and disruptive nature, then it becomes a burden to the player for self-restricting themselves).


Personally, I've opted to avoid taking it as a cantrip where possible and going for something else instead. Resistance, while theoretically just the flip side of the Guidance coin, seems considerably more reasonable due to its reactive usage rather than a proactive use; which limits the scope of its use from the altogether-too-broad range of Guidance. It also sets itself up for fun scenarios of extended care, where someone having to make multiple saving throws against death, spell or disease would have the Resistance caster sitting at their side and tending to them to make sure they had the best chance of making it.

Presumably I'm not the only one who feels this way about Guidance, so I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how to handle it gracefully


EDIT3: Gnomish Barbarian 2/Paladin 6, has +CHA mod to saves versus magic, advantage on WIS, INT and CHA saves vs. magic, advantage on DEX saves versus effects that can be seen (including magic), and advantage on STR saving throws when raging.

Moustache of antimagic is G O O O O O O O !

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 25, 2020, 06:24:12 am

Double post for great victory.

So, I was poking around trying to find rulings on Lucky vs. Portent, when I came across this (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/700129409257205760) tweet from Mr. Crawford on the mechanics of Portent.

Quote

The wizard: "I use Portent!" The d20 (or d20s with adv./dis.) is rolled. Portent replaces the resulting die.

And I just... Why?

Why would you still roll the dice if you're going to replace the result?

This also isn't a matter of where advantage would override Portent with "Well I rolled with advantage and got a 15 and 18, so the Portent roll of 8 replaces the 18 and I use the 15 instead" because Advantage/Disadvantage has specifically been pointed out as being one roll. The two dice are to be treated as just one for the sake of all mechanics and abilities that influence or are influenced by d20 rolls.

...except that no, apparently it's not. Crawford has also come out and said that if you have disadvantage and use a luck point, you can choose any of those three dice for the result of the roll. This is considered a "specific exception to a general rule".


Although, apparently it *is* a matter of allowing Lucky to override Portent. Presumably this has something to do with the order of events. I will be obnoxiously turning things into proper nouns for the sake of emphasizing that each one means something distinct and different:

• Portent is used to determine Result of Roll (before Roll)
• Roll: A d20 (or two d20s in the case of advantage/disadvantage) is rolled, and Result is determined
• Lucky is used (after Roll and Result) to roll a new d20, which earns a new Result. Lucky then allows user to choose which Result is the Outcome
• Outcome

...except that this specifically does not work with the Lucky+disadvantage interaction Crawford has stated, since that would require Lucky to be an augment during the Roll. But if it's part of the Roll, then Portent overrides it.


And as per usual, while attempting to look up One Thing^TM for 5e, I end up derailing completely out of control and plummet into a rabbit hole of confusion. I just closed a tab where I was confirming an interaction between Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball. Blagh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on November 25, 2020, 07:04:50 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2020, 05:10:13 am

Presumably I'm not the only one who feels this way about Guidance, so I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how to handle it gracefully

I played a heavily homeruled game at one point that limited guidance use to spellcaster ability mod uses per day in order to solve this problem. Realistically still a VERY strong cantrip, but you can't use it for absolutely everything and need to put some thought into it's use. I think it was an okay idea, although the game didn't last long enough to really get a great feel on it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 25, 2020, 12:17:29 pm

I only have a problem with Guidance when people spam cast it every minute.

Portent you effectively don't need to roll, but you still replace the die roll. Another scenario where that could matter is the creature making the roll doesn't always know portent got used, so they use something to give themselves advantage.

The Lucky disadvantage thing isn't a Crawford ruling, its how Lucky is worded, Crawford just acknowledged that that wording allows that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 26, 2020, 07:55:03 am

Quote from: Criptfeind on November 25, 2020, 07:04:50 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 30, 2020, 05:10:13 am

Presumably I'm not the only one who feels this way about Guidance, so I'd like to hear people's thoughts on how to handle it gracefully

I played a heavily homeruled game at one point that limited guidance use to spellcaster ability mod uses per day in order to solve this problem. Realistically still a VERY strong cantrip, but you can't use it for absolutely everything and need to put some thought into it's use. I think it was an okay idea, although the game didn't last long enough to really get a great feel on it.

I dunno... While that is certainly an effective way of trimming down the spam, I have kind of a principle disagreement with making what's supposed to be an infinite resource (a cantrip) have a finite number of uses per day/rest/etc. Personally I'd rather find some way of limiting the conditions of usage, or just outright replacing it with something else, than to start tracking it as a resource. But, I mean, it's certainly a straightforward option!

Quote from: Persus13 on November 25, 2020, 12:17:29 pm

I only have a problem with Guidance when people spam cast it every minute.

Precisely, but the nature of the spell means that you're either doing exactly that or you're specifically handicapping yourself for the sake of "not being annoying". And that can be a tricky balance to strike for some players, either leaving it as a dead cantrip just taking up a slot, or overusing it and slowing the game down. I'd rather either have some sort of mechanical limitation that makes it a bit more sane and takes that responsibility off the players, or just exclude it entirely and have them take a different cantrip with other uses instead.

Quote from: Persus13 on November 25, 2020, 12:17:29 pm

Portent you effectively don't need to roll, but you still replace the die roll. Another scenario where that could matter is the creature making the roll doesn't always know portent got used, so they use something to give themselves advantage.

The Lucky disadvantage thing isn't a Crawford ruling, its how Lucky is worded, Crawford just acknowledged that that wording allows that.

Well sure, that's kinda the whole thing though. You don't effectively need to roll the dice, so why would you? Your rolling the dice has no say on whether or not an ingame creature is aware of your premonitions, and as far as meta knowledge goes you have to declare Portent usage before a roll is made anyway. I'm thinking it's just some odd language use from Crawford, but I really don't understand why he seems to be saying you should have to roll dice that have already been invalidated.

As for ruling versus not-ruling, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean... I found (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/21/lucky-explained/) a couple (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats/) places where he seems to specifically state that that's how the feat is supposed to function (and then an earlier one (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/526089494177382401?lang=en) that directly contradicts the other statements) rather than just a potential interpretation, so I'm unsure what constitutes a ruling in that sense and what doesn't.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 26, 2020, 09:49:39 am

I like rolling dice!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 26, 2020, 10:18:52 am

Quote from: scriver on November 26, 2020, 09:49:39 am

I like rolling dice!

casts fireball

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 26, 2020, 10:25:17 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 26, 2020, 07:55:03 am

Quote from: Persus13 on November 25, 2020, 12:17:29 pm

I only have a problem with Guidance when people spam cast it every minute.

Precisely, but the nature of the spell means that you're either doing exactly that or you're specifically handicapping yourself for the sake of "not being annoying". And that can be a tricky balance to strike for some players, either leaving it as a dead cantrip just taking up a slot, or overusing it and slowing the game down. I'd rather either have some sort of mechanical limitation that makes it a bit more sane and takes that responsibility off the players, or just exclude it entirely and have them take a different cantrip with other uses instead.

I'm talking about people trying to get the 1d4 on initiative. I'm actually fine with people using it whenever someone's making an ability check because its a team game. If you feel like you or the folks using it are doing it too much, not taking it is perfectly fine! But most people I've played have been reasonable about knowing when they can reasonably use the cantrip to help someone else's roll. And its not all that different from people asking if they can work together with another person to give them advantage.

Quote from: Kagus on November 26, 2020, 07:55:03 am

Quote from: Persus13 on November 25, 2020, 12:17:29 pm

Portent you effectively don't need to roll, but you still replace the die roll. Another scenario where that could matter is the creature making the roll doesn't always know portent got used, so they use something to give themselves advantage.

The Lucky disadvantage thing isn't a Crawford ruling, its how Lucky is worded, Crawford just acknowledged that that wording allows that.

Well sure, that's kinda the whole thing though. You don't effectively need to roll the dice, so why would you? Your rolling the dice has no say on whether or not an ingame creature is aware of your premonitions, and as far as meta knowledge goes you have to declare Portent usage before a roll is made anyway. I'm thinking it's just some odd language use from Crawford, but I really don't understand why he seems to be saying you should have to roll dice that have already been invalidated.

As for ruling versus not-ruling, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean... I found (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/21/lucky-explained/) a couple (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats/) places where he seems to specifically state that that's how the feat is supposed to function (and then an earlier one (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/526089494177382401?lang=en) that directly contradicts the other statements) rather than just a potential interpretation, so I'm unsure what constitutes a ruling in that sense and what doesn't.

You don't need to roll the dice, but because the wording of the ability is it replaces the roll, that implies a roll still gets made. The vast majority of the time you don't need to roll, but its still part of the order of operations of resolving stuff. Also, you realize you can use a portent on another creature's roll right? So you can replace a roll being made by someone else, not just you, and there's nothing in the game requiring you to tell that creature or player that you used portent. You could have two cards and pick one before each roll if you really wanted to.

My point on rulings is that you can just read the actual text of the rules and draw your own conclusion instead of searching for tweets, and in this case, Lucky calls out that you choose which d20 to use, which overrides the regular adv/disadv rules. There is nowhere in the 5e rules that says tweets are an official rules source and Crawford would literally be the first person to tell you that. His tweets are either 1. The thinking behind a particular rule. 2. How he interprets that rule or 3. How he runs his own D&D game. Which certainly can be useful, but isn't required for any table, or any theory crafting.

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on November 26, 2020, 10:18:52 am

Quote from: scriver on November 26, 2020, 09:49:39 am

I like rolling dice!

casts fireball

Make sure you upcast it so you can roll even more dice!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 30, 2020, 07:00:48 am

Quote from: Persus13 on November 26, 2020, 10:25:17 am

I'm talking about people trying to get the 1d4 on initiative. I'm actually fine with people using it whenever someone's making an ability check because its a team game. If you feel like you or the folks using it are doing it too much, not taking it is perfectly fine! But most people I've played have been reasonable about knowing when they can reasonably use the cantrip to help someone else's roll. And its not all that different from people asking if they can work together with another person to give them advantage.

Yes, not taking it is perfectly fine. What I'm interested in are suggestions for fixes that allow the cantrip to still be part of the game, but without bogging everything down.

And I'm happy that your experiences have been with people who provided reasonable usage of the cantrip. Mine have not. It starts off with interjecting every time an ability check is made, every single time a check is made, and then trails off into never speaking of it again when they notice just how much of the spotlight it ends up taking.

And the Help action is honestly similarly abusable, but it at least is vague enough that extra conditions can easily be applied to it, such as requiring the helper to make a related skill check or to at the very least describe how they intend to give advantage to the other person. Guidance is much more cut and dried in its base state.

I played part of a game where the players had "discovered" both Guidance and the Help action, and there were no restrictions or conditions placed upon either's usage by the DM. Every single ability check from that point on consisted of a pattern like:

Player 1: "I ask the kobold about its masters"

Player 2: "I cast Guidance!"

Player 3: "I help!"


Which not only added a lot of padding to every action, it also slammed headfirst into whatever flow a scene might have been having.

And since rolling with advantage +1d4 is such a large bonus (easily making a mockery of any sort of proficiency or expertise the characters might have had, what with this being a low-level game), making any roll without those readily available boosts was seen as almost an insult, resulting in obsessive usage and ruffled feathers whenever someone forgot.

I'm all for having the players work together as a team, but they need to be able to do so without slowing things down and forcing them to pipe up and interrupt a dialog with extra gamespeak every time. Even just letting it be a standing theme where all rolls are done with advantage +1d4 whenever the characters are near each other is preferable, but carries with it its own issues.

Quote from: Persus13 on November 26, 2020, 10:25:17 am

You don't need to roll the dice, but because the wording of the ability is it replaces the roll, that implies a roll still gets made. The vast majority of the time you don't need to roll, but its still part of the order of operations of resolving stuff. Also, you realize you can use a portent on another creature's roll right? So you can replace a roll being made by someone else, not just you, and there's nothing in the game requiring you to tell that creature or player that you used portent. You could have two cards and pick one before each roll if you really wanted to.

Okay. I feel like we're talking past each other again. I'm not asking about how Portent works. I'm not confused about the conventional or normal usage of Portent. What I'm confused about is the tweet from the lead rules designer of 5e where he appears to state that the intention of the rule is to still roll the dice even though their result gets overridden.

And yes, I am absolutely aware of Portent being usable on other creatures. That's both how I normally tend to use it, and also entirely not the point. Portent must be announced before a roll, which means that A) The DM controlling the creature you're using it on is aware that you're using it, or B) The player you're using it on is aware that you're using it. Meta, everybody knows. The only way they wouldn't is if you're doing some sort of distanced PvP thing with separate tables and an intermediary DM connecting them or something. Which means that the only way "not knowing about Portent" is going to come into play is if the controller willfully ignores it for the sake of them not knowing about it in-character, in which case rolling the overridden dice anyway makes no difference.

Quote from: Persus13 on November 26, 2020, 10:25:17 am

My point on rulings is that you can just read the actual text of the rules and draw your own conclusion instead of searching for tweets, and in this case, Lucky calls out that you choose which d20 to use, which overrides the regular adv/disadv rules. There is nowhere in the 5e rules that says tweets are an official rules source and Crawford would literally be the first person to tell you that. His tweets are either 1. The thinking behind a particular rule. 2. How he interprets that rule or 3. How he runs his own D&D game. Which certainly can be useful, but isn't required for any table, or any theory crafting.

Again. I am not confused as to whether or not a DM can change or tweak the rules as fitting. It says so explicitly in the book, and even if it didn't it would still be valid.

However, in order to have any semblance of a game play out with a group, there needs to be some form of communal understanding and agreement between the players as to what the rules are. This generally means reading the book to establish a baseline, variations from which can be summarized and listed by the DM. The alternative to having that pre-established agreed-upon baseline is to have the DM list the entirety of their table's rules before a game. Which, I'm sure you would agree, would be unnecessarily clunky and confusing.

As such, when the book that we establish that baseline on is unclear in its wording or does not appear to account for particular edge cases, then a common first step is to ask the lead designer about

Quote

1. The thinking behind a particular rule

so that we can have a better understanding and interpretation of that baseline, which may then be modified or exchanged as necessary.

And when that

Quote

1. The thinking behind a particular rule

or

Quote

2. How he interprets that rule

appears to make no sense or contradicts other such explanations, then it doesn't serve to clarify the issue so much as just muddle it even more.

That is what I am getting at here. I feel that the rules as written in the book are insufficient or unclear on points, and I am unsatisfied and irked by the lead designer's explanation of what those rules were intended to mean, which draws into question the sanity of the rest of the rules. That's it. I don't feel incapacitated or irrevocably blocked from playing DnD because the book is weird. I don't feel like I can't play at all ever because the lead rules designer is frequently vague or has bizarre interpretations of his own rules.

What I feel is annoyance, because I am attempting to learn and establish that baseline and in so doing I learn the parts of it that are dumb and do not want to be learned.

Almost all the games I've played in have had deviations from the base ruleset. That's fine. Great, even. But that works because they are exactly that, "deviations". They don't claim to be the exact same as the other tables. They don't claim to be strictly how it's written in the book. They assert that they make changes here, here, and here. Awesome. Now we're all on a level playing field.

Or we would be, if "just the book" meant the same thing for everyone. Which it doesn't. And as such, you get a group of people together who think they're playing the same game, but are doing and expecting very different things from that table. And that's why official rulings exist, to minimize the level of confusion that pops up when people think they're referring to the same thing.

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on November 26, 2020, 10:18:52 am

Quote from: scriver on November 26, 2020, 09:49:39 am

I like rolling dice!

casts fireball

Nah fam, Scorching Ray :P. Had a dumbass level 20 build concept that would roll up to something like 32d20, 64d6 in one turn. Using Fireball in that same setup wouldn't involve nearly as many dice, and you wouldn't even be the one rolling half of them!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on November 30, 2020, 07:05:41 am

You have to admit there's a joy in, as a player, staring someone in the eye and saying "roll a dexterity saving throw". :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 30, 2020, 10:32:49 am

So the movie Karate Cop has this random scene that involves a seedy, post apocalypse dive bar called "Jackass Junction", and that's totally going into the next Gamma World game I'm never going to play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 30, 2020, 03:18:38 pm

Quote from: Kagus on November 30, 2020, 07:00:48 am

Okay. I feel like we're talking past each other again. I'm not asking about how Portent works. I'm not confused about the conventional or normal usage of Portent. What I'm confused about is the tweet from the lead rules designer of 5e where he appears to state that the intention of the rule is to still roll the dice even though their result gets overridden.

And yes, I am absolutely aware of Portent being usable on other creatures. That's both how I normally tend to use it, and also entirely not the point. Portent must be announced before a roll, which means that A) The DM controlling the creature you're using it on is aware that you're using it, or B) The player you're using it on is aware that you're using it. Meta, everybody knows. The only way they wouldn't is if you're doing some sort of distanced PvP thing with separate tables and an intermediary DM connecting them or something. Which means that the only way "not knowing about Portent" is going to come into play is if the controller willfully ignores it for the sake of them not knowing about it in-character, in which case rolling the overridden dice anyway makes no difference.

The dev's tweet is explaining the order of operations that things happen. Rolling the dice is still part of the order of operations. Why does this matter? Because the original response was asking about advantage/disadvantage, which happens when the roll is made, and the dev was explaining that Portent comes into play after that. At no point in that tweet is the developer saying you have to actually roll the dice, they are just explaining the order of operations of how the ability works in a hypothetical scenario to better explain their point.

There are plenty of occasions where there's an order of operations in game that you may skip over in actual play because its not a concern. For instance attack rolls have an order of operations where you make the attack roll then go and roll damage. There's plenty of times at the table where people roll the d20 and the damage dice at the same time to speed up play, but for the purposes of the rules, you roll the attack, then resolve damage.

And there's plenty of easy ways to hide intent until after a roll is revealed, you can use cards and flip it over to show what you picked. Either way, the DM or players can still choose to spend resources on a die roll even if they know it has a portent because they think its in character or cool for that creature or character to do so. But if the roll isn't made in the order of operations, spending resources on the roll isn't mechanically possible, which is pretty important for a lot of abilities as they rely on a d20 roll being made, like Portent itself.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 04, 2020, 10:54:18 am

Got an idea in my head for a introduction to a game involving kobolds (the traditional gnome-like ones, not the small lizard people) stealing a farmer's chickens and the PCs being village youths paid a few silver to stay up late and keep watch.

There's rustling in the chicken coop, some confused 'bwerks' from the hens, and if the PCs pop their heads in to look there's a terrified kobold thief with a monobrow so bushy it could be used to polish shoes who panics briefly and then tries to pretend he's a chicken.

I also imagine a kobold bolting while holding a chicken above it's head and making various whooping noises.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on December 04, 2020, 11:34:58 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on November 30, 2020, 10:32:49 am

So the movie Karate Cop has this random scene that involves a seedy, post apocalypse dive bar called "Jackass Junction", and that's totally going into the next Gamma World game I'm never going to play.

Will the bartender be david carradine?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 05, 2020, 03:12:48 am

Happened on this map-making program on reddit just now (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/k6twib/i_made_this_free_program_to_create_maps_in_your/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share). Haven't tried it yet but it seems cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on December 05, 2020, 03:31:37 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on December 04, 2020, 10:54:18 am

Got an idea in my head for a introduction to a game involving kobolds (the traditional gnome-like ones, not the small lizard people) stealing a farmer's chickens and the PCs being village youths paid a few silver to stay up late and keep watch.

There's rustling in the chicken coop, some confused 'bwerks' from the hens, and if the PCs pop their heads in to look there's a terrified kobold thief with a monobrow so bushy it could be used to polish shoes who panics briefly and then tries to pretend he's a chicken.

I also imagine a kobold bolting while holding a chicken above it's head and making various whooping noises.

That’s honestly brilliant. It’s so hard to make satisfying adventures at level 1, especially when your players insist that their characters are as badass as Geralt even though they shouldn’t have even been in a real fight yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 05, 2020, 12:27:01 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 04, 2020, 11:34:58 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on November 30, 2020, 10:32:49 am

So the movie Karate Cop has this random scene that involves a seedy, post apocalypse dive bar called "Jackass Junction", and that's totally going into the next Gamma World game I'm never going to play.

Will the bartender be david carradine?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 06, 2020, 06:23:12 pm

Um.  So... These Tasha's subclasses bring up some... Curious questions. Multiclassing questions.


If I'm reading all these things correctly, and we're using Crawford's intended calculations for Magic Missile, one could potentially (with a horrific 5-way multiclass split)... Gimme a second...

1d4+1, +1d8, +11, x21...

So, between 294 and 504 damage in one turn, no save or attack roll (requires one extra action as setup from a previous turn, but it's okay because it lasts for an hour at a time without concentration and can follow us around where we go).


To one target, and it's fire damage soooo... Yeah  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 06, 2020, 06:42:24 pm

I've really only briefly skimmed Tasha's Cauldron, so no surprise if I missed it. What combo allows that?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 06, 2020, 06:49:06 pm

Possibly. Although most games are a LOT lower-level. For sheer "can kill someone much higher-level" effect, the 3.x edition Launch Item (a level 1 version of the cantrip) Can put any object 400 + 40 * level feet away in any direction, with a limit that it weight 10 lbs or less. That puts it into the category of objects that weigh at least 1 lb, where the falling damage was 1D6 for 70 feet, plus d6 per 10 feet after that. The cantrip version had a reduced range and the best I saw was 8 silver for a gargantuan crossbow bolt (4d6 damage), or better with eschew materials feat.

Or the 1st transmuter power (5e) that allows you to turn anything into anything else, including water into purple worm poison. That requires someone be able to coat the team's weapons, but +46 damage per hit is nothing to sneeze at.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 06, 2020, 06:58:27 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on December 06, 2020, 06:42:24 pm

I've really only briefly skimmed Tasha's Cauldron, so no surprise if I missed it. What combo allows that?

Never mind lol. I didn't realize magic missle worked like that, but I see now with a quick googling of Jims Tweet (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557823175581769729) on the subject. Kinda cool if you're in a higher powered game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 06, 2020, 07:03:48 pm

Someone casting 5th level magic missile on my character was the closest he's ever come to dying. Just the whole health pool, deleted in one turn at the start of a major battle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 06, 2020, 11:11:11 pm

Quote from: Iduno on December 06, 2020, 06:49:06 pm

Possibly. Although most games are a LOT lower-level. For sheer "can kill someone much higher-level" effect, the 3.x edition Launch Item (a level 1 version of the cantrip) Can put any object 400 + 40 * level feet away in any direction, with a limit that it weight 10 lbs or less. That puts it into the category of objects that weigh at least 1 lb, where the falling damage was 1D6 for 70 feet, plus d6 per 10 feet after that. The cantrip version had a reduced range and the best I saw was 8 silver for a gargantuan crossbow bolt (4d6 damage), or better with eschew materials feat.

Or the 1st transmuter power (5e) that allows you to turn anything into anything else, including water into purple worm poison. That requires someone be able to coat the team's weapons, but +46 damage per hit is nothing to sneeze at.

Which 5e is this? Because if this D&D, that's not how that ability works at all.

Quote from: Kagus on December 06, 2020, 06:23:12 pm

Um.  So... These Tasha's subclasses bring up some... Curious questions. Multiclassing questions.


If I'm reading all these things correctly, and we're using Crawford's intended calculations for Magic Missile, one could potentially (with a horrific 5-way multiclass split)... Gimme a second...

1d4+1, +1d8, +11, x21...

So, between 294 and 504 damage in one turn, no save or attack roll (requires one extra action as setup from a previous turn, but it's okay because it lasts for an hour at a time without concentration and can follow us around where we go).


To one target, and it's fire damage soooo... Yeah  :P

I'm interested in hearing this actually, although I'm guessing this involves Order of Scribes and Wildfire Druid in some capacity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on December 07, 2020, 03:49:34 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 06, 2020, 06:23:12 pm

x21

Which multiclass combo gives that high multiplier? Did you remember that multipliers work additively, e.g. three 2x multipliers become 4x?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2020, 04:38:31 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2020, 11:11:11 pm

I'm interested in hearing this actually, although I'm guessing this involves Order of Scribes and Wildfire Druid in some capacity.

Bingo (and good morning, all)!

Dragon sorc (fire) 6/Wildfire druid 6/Scribe wizard 2/Fighter 2/Hexblade warlock 1

Order of operations:

Summon wildfire spirit. Here's where we need that extra action for setup, but as mentioned the spirit lasts for an hour at a time, doesn't take concentration and is capable of movement (flying movement at that). 1 action

Then we use the utterly stupid Hexblade's curse on the target. No roll involved here either. 1 bonus action

We cast Magic Missile using our 9th-level slot, and use our scribe book to change its damage type to fire (requiring us to have recorded Meteor Swarm or similar in the book, which is technically fine according to the rules since we don't need to be able to have exclusively wizard levels for the spell slots of spells we write down in our wizardly book). At 9th level, MM provides 11 missiles. 1 action

Action surge. No action

Using our surged action, we cast Magic Missile again using our next highest slot which is 8th level. 10 more missiles. 1 action


At Wildfire druid level 6, while our wildifire spirit is active we can add +1d8 to one roll of either fire damage or healing amount when casting an appropriate spell (one that heals or does fire damage, namely). The damage of every magic missile is calculated using one roll, according to Crawford, so it applies to the damage of each individual bolt.

Dragon sorc 6 gives a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of a spell you cast that uses your attuned element. Again, one roll, so the modifier gets applied to every missile (and we can have 20 CHA here, because you don't technically need any more than 13 Wis or Int as far as either the druid or wizard are concerned). That's a +5 damage bonus, per each missile.

Order of scribes 2 gets us our fancy book, which lets us change the damage type of a spell on the fly so long as we have an example of that damage type at the spell level we're casting the spell at. So we need to have scribed 8th and 9th level spells with fire damage in order to get this to work, but beyond that we don't need to cast them and modifying a spell this way doesn't take any other sort of resources. Note that while the description does say that you can only do this when casting wizard spells, that doesn't actually mean anything important for us because we are casting MM as a wizard spell! Our INT doesn't matter in this case, because there are no attack rolls or save DC.

Fighter level 2 is obvious, action surge 4 lyfe.

Hexblade 1 is of course the 1-hit wonder that gives us the utterly stupid Hexblade's curse, a bonus action no-save no-concentration hex where "You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. The bonus equals your proficiency bonus." There's that damage roll again! And at level 17, we've got a proficiency bonus of +6.


So the damage per missile is 1d4+1(base spell), +1d8(wildfire spirit bonus), +5(dragon sorcerer), +6(Hexblade's curse). And using up a 9th and an 8th level slot for casting MM, we end up with a total of 21 missiles.

Resulting in  1d4+1d8+12 x21 (okay, so it's x11 + x10 since you'll be rolling the d4 and d8 again, so sue me) fire damage with no save and no attack roll.


It's significantly weakened against fire immune monsters, as you'll have to use a different damage type and won't get either the +1d8 or the +5 bonuses in that case. ...and of course the entire thing is instantly and completely blocked by simply reacting with a casting of Shield, but meh  :P


Finally, something that can compete with the damage potential of Paladins! And at only level 17!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 07, 2020, 04:50:13 am

I don't think you'll be able to get a 9th or 8th level fire damage spell with that setup. The calculation for what spells you can learn uses each class separately.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2020, 05:04:44 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 07, 2020, 04:50:13 am

I don't think you'll be able to get a 9th or 8th level fire damage spell with that setup. The calculation for what spells you can learn uses each class separately.

From Wizard class description:

"Copying a Spell into the book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it"

On preparing spells:

"You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots"

Via multiclass spell slot calculations, we do in fact have level 8th and 9th spell slots (I *did* make a goof, however... This doesn't work at character level 17 :P you need 3 more levels of some form of primary caster, but I forgot to write that down because at this point it doesn't really matter which primary caster class that is. Could be more sorc, or druid, or wiz, or even adding in cleric or bard for an even more schizophrenic split), which means we can technically prepare 8th and 9th level spells (even though we may not have any naturally from any of our classes), which in turn means that we can copy such a spell into our spellbook.



EDIT: Shit, go ahead and take at least 2 levels of Tempest cleric, and see if your DM will let you interpret the odd wording of Order of Scribes' element-changing function to rip lightning damage out of Prismatic Wall, and do a Meteor Swarm that rolls 40d6 lightning damage instead of 20d6 fire/20d6 bludgeoning.

Then channel divinity to simply deal max damage of 240

Round out the build with a single level of Bard, with instrument proficiency: Kazoo

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 07, 2020, 07:39:17 am

Actually reading those quotes I'm not sure if you can prepare 8th and 9th level spells like that. The sticking point seems to be that the order of scribes ability needs the spell in your spell book, and the spell book can only hold spell levels that you can prepare. You can not actually prepare 8th or 9th level spells unless you're actually a level 15th or 17th straight wizard, thus you can't use write them in your book, thus you can't scribe them to be fire?

Possibly you can find a spell book that already has such spells scribed in them and somehow make that your spellbook? that's a fairly common trope, but the rules surrounding it are a bit vague.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 07, 2020, 09:16:27 am

Criptfiend and Egan are correct. The Multiclassing rules state that "You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class." And as you yourself said, you can't copy a wizard spell if you can't prepare it.

At best you could cast this at third level by taking three more levels of wizard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 07, 2020, 09:38:49 am

Yep, I'd missed that part of the multiclassing rules section wording, and Crawford (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/19/multiclass-caster-spellbook/) seems to back that interpretation up. S'pose that's why part of the errata was fixing the sidebar from saying "you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level for which you have spell slots" to "you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare". That's good, I was starting to wonder why you wouldn't just take a 1-level dip in wizard to have access to all the utility spells up to and including 9th for multiclassers...

Ah well, so much for beating out Paladin damage potential!

Quote from: Persus13 on December 07, 2020, 09:16:27 am

Criptfiend and Egan are correct.

For someone insistent that people make their own interpretations of the rules, you seem rather definitive in this statement  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 07, 2020, 10:02:49 am

Your build idea did make me think that a Tempest Cleric/Scribes Multiclass would be kinda fun actually. I don't know if it would work super well with magic missile, and there's not too many spells that deal thunder/lightning damage, but it seems like a fun alternative to the Tempest/Storm multiclass.

I'm a big fan of people interpreting rules on their own when the rules are vague, especially since there's several rules in the game that explicitly state that (DM being rules arbiter, Adjudicating Simultaneous Effects, etc.). But on a lot of occasions the rules aren't vague, people just haven't read them. And that's fine, especially in a game session when you're more focused on having fun then what page 43 of the PHB says. You said something recently about wanting to have the same experience at multiple tables. In my experience the biggest thing that causes people to expect different things at the table isn't rules being vague, its people not having actually read the rules (or just not remembering them) and going based off how their last DM ran things/how something worked in a previous edition/how a popular streaming show did it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on December 07, 2020, 10:07:33 am

If you want Kagus, you can drop the druid and sorcerer and just take an evocation wizard anyway, looses 94 damage from the 1d8 but is still at a respectable 254, and that's force damage, which I think at level 20 in a lot of cases you'd rather do 254 force instead of 349 fire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 09, 2020, 06:45:29 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 07, 2020, 10:02:49 am

Your build idea did make me think that a Tempest Cleric/Scribes Multiclass would be kinda fun actually. I don't know if it would work super well with magic missile, and there's not too many spells that deal thunder/lightning damage, but it seems like a fun alternative to the Tempest/Storm multiclass.

Personally I'm a fan of the Tempest 2/Land druid (mountain) 5 combo, since it's SAD and I've already gone to the trouble of working up a backstory skeleton that explains the multiclass  :P

But yeah, Tempest Scribe would give considerably more versatility since you could shape that maxed lightning damage into a lot more different forms than just Lightning Bolt's 100x5' line... Plus heavy armor proficiency, and since it's only a 2-level dip you could just pick up some snazzy buffs and utility spells from Cleric and leave Wis at 13 to max out Int.


Currently I'm mostly fiddling with semi-gish tank options. I realized recently that the Eldritch Knight's level 7 "if you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action" works for defensive cantrips like Blade Ward. So just bop into the thick of it, Blade Ward yourself for resistance against piercing/slashing/bludgeoning, and make an attack while you're at it. Stacking resistance on top of some very decent AC from heavy armor + shield + misc. seemed like fun to me, so I decided to roll with the concept and see where it could be taken.

There are a few options that stand out for this, especially with the changes and additions in Tasha's, such as Valor bards, Bladesingers etc... But I'm trying to get the level down as much as possible so that the combo gets online earlier (the original plan was to stack resistance with damage reduction from the heavy armor master feat, but it appears that those don't interact in quite the way I was hoping  :P... So that's less interesting and I'm moving on to other pastures). Magic Initiate Paladin looks promising, as does Arcana Cleric.

I'm also toying with the idea of that Gnomish Barbadin for maximum spelltank

Quote from: Criptfeind on December 07, 2020, 10:07:33 am

If you want Kagus, you can drop the druid and sorcerer and just take an evocation wizard anyway, looses 94 damage from the 1d8 but is still at a respectable 254, and that's force damage, which I think at level 20 in a lot of cases you'd rather do 254 force instead of 349 fire.

Psh, but that's actual play!  :P We're not interested in "efficacy" or "versatility"! All that matters are biggest numbers

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 09, 2020, 02:05:49 pm

EK with Blade Ward is pretty fun. Most of the time attacking multiple times is better, but it has its uses, particularly if you're able to block a door way or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on December 10, 2020, 12:10:37 pm

I like the new Pathfinder bundle. Monster ecology has always been my favorite splatbook theme. (https://www.humblebundle.com/books/pathfinder-monster-lore-paizo-books)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 13, 2020, 02:48:18 pm

In order to balance out the edginess of my current party, I've made an honourable centaur cleric who always tries their best to help others and never backs down from a fight. Greatly respects perseverance & nature, finds personal sacrifice to be foolish, competition as wasteful, pride distasteful and has an extreme hatred for cowardice and dishonourable conduct. Comes from a wholesome family background where they learned herbalism and alchemy, to make potions, tonics and spirits to tend to the various normal folk living around.

This is in contrast to two amnesiacs with tragic backgrounds that are steadily being uncovered as the weight of their past actions catch up to them, one exiled prince who has gotten himself trapped in the spirit realm (ironically saving him from the many, many enemies he's made throughout the campaign through a series of unnecessarily bloody actions), and a tiefling assassin with the mental age of a child who believes the world persecutes them for being a devil descendant, and not because they are a chronic thief-murderer. It has been such a fucking fun campaign for everyone.

My cleric centaur is steadily converting the atheist amnesiac wizard to her Earthen God in the name of justice, bountiful plenty and righteousness. Working together with the edgy amnesiac paladin to make him live up to the tenets of his oath, so that he can finally be the good man he says he is. Even managed to make headway with the edgy tiefling, telling him that the God of death he serves takes his time to take lives, so he should think his actions through too. And whilst she hasn't convinced him to return his stolen wares, she has convinced him to not treat violence as a matter of first resort.

Mechanically, I never liked 5e DND magic for a bunch of reasons. The main gripe being it had too many anti-roleplay "I win" buttons that just skipped over problems in exploration, combat or social arenas. The other main reason being it's very easy to outshine anyone else not using a spell list, as DND magic just provides a breadth and depth of power & versatility that renders the non-magical classes fairly vestigial as the campaign goes on, and the wizard renders the non-wizard magic people fairly vestigial in their own domains.

I always played barbarians, rogues, fighters, monks and so on because I liked the roleplay element of heroes succeeding on their merits instead of on magic, but was fairly disappointed at how 5e didn't let you make a char that could hold a candle to a hero like Diomedes, Odysseus or Hercules, or even Conan the barbarian. In short, it's easier to make a Greek god than it is to make a Greek hero... Which is strange?
So as a side interest I tried making various interesting multiclasses or various stupid multiclass specialisations that created mechanically inferior but roleplay goldmines, relative to doing a straight class progression. Things reached hilarious ends in two campaigns when my DM and fellow players accused me of making ridiculously OP multiclasses, and both times I showed them I was just playing straight monk and straight rogue. At this point my DM said he realised I wasn't pulling tricks on them, I was just the only one in the group who read the rules xD

Eventually however, we reached the point in a year and a half long campaign where our party had to either deal with finding some way up a waterfall/cavern entrance, or going through a heavily defended passageway infested with undead. The wizard and paladin misty stepped up, the tiefling flew over the waterfall, whilst my barbarian climbed up through the waterfall. Cue an entire fight through a flooded temple where my character, whose entire theme for a year and a half was that they were a sea monster hunter who had just learned how to breathe underwater, was completely obsolete in almost every challenge and obstacle. Before I could even try anything it would always be resolved by magic, with many of the problems resolvable only through magic. Despite having a glorious moment to shine when he was successfully wrestling a boneclaw that nearly TPK'd the party, giving everyone else advantage on it with constant grapples and shoves, my friends even asked me if I wanted to change char because I spent three hours mostly watching them play whilst I had naught to do.

I took up the offer, and as my humble fisherman retired briefly from adventuring to go back to sea monster hunting, I deployed a horrifying gimmick build. I made it as a threat to my DM; it was either that, or the 4 int wizard orc wizard who casts fist, or the wise sagely archer centaur that can't miss. Instead I chose to make Cayetan Carota, the Fortunate Centaur, who embodied concentrated plot armour - a walking reality glitch that forced the universe to exhibit internal cognitive dissonance every now and then.

By chaining together a fuck ton of feats, cleric, wizard and sorcerer spells, I made sure that every turn and with every action I could manipulate the result as long as I hadn't expended my resources. Out of character, I made sure my DM and players were ok with this, and whilst my DM threatened to have me murdered IRL if it turned out to be horrendous, my comrades were delighted. Fortunately, my DM did not murder me, as I also chose my gimmick options to be as streamlined as possible. In character, whenever I buff myself or a party member to roll up to 3 d20 + 3d4 + 1d6, we roleplay it as freakishly unlikely successes occurring, as reality warps around the power of Cayetan the Fortunate One's existence - much to her own ignorance.

There are many feats and classes which manipulate rolls, rerolls, success chances, advantages/disadvantages. If anyone's interested I can dump all the spells, feats & classes which do just that. Nevertheless, a lot of these features have overlap which prevents you from squeezing the most rolls out in the shortest amount of actions, or else have a high resource cost that prohibit extended shenanigens. This is one of the more fun ones I found which avoids this overlap.

Using standard array, I started with a lvl 1 Unity Cleric (UA), 16 STR, 8 Dex, 10 CON, 13 INT, 13 WIS and 15 CHA. First level of cleric unity gives medium armour proficiency, a whole bunch of useful spells like healing word or thaumaturgy, ritual casting - and most importantly, buffs like guidance, resistance, heroism, shield of faith and bless. Debuffs like guiding bolt and bane are useful but our WIS is pretty suboptimal, so it's best to use CONC spells for buffing. The special emboldening bond allows me to give +d4s to my allies attacks, which can stack with bless, whilst the 16 STR means I can stay on the frontlines with the melee fighters without being dead weight. As such, the touch range on a lot of the cleric cantrip buffs isn't an issue, as Cayetan is usually always where they need to be to buff her allies.

2 levels of divination wizard give a whole bunch of useful utility spells like mold earth, shape water, find familiar, healing elixer as well as the buff gift of alacrity, which gives +d8 to initiative without costing a concentration spell slot. The class feature divine portent allows two d20s to be substituted a day with two pre-rolled d20s without using any action, which is vital when your paladin is jumping onto a dragon's back from an airship somersault and you have a 20 in reserve - or you want an enemy to fail their save for sure.

From there wild magic sorcerer all the way, taking up all the buffs you can. Enlarge/reduce, enhance ability, shield, mirror image, blink, haste, counterspell, skill empowerment all ensure your less magically inclined party members can't be shut down by magical monsters or enemy wizards. As the char doesn't use offensive magic, the lack of optimisation does bugger all to stop the FORTUNE CLERIC from using the entire party as an ever more deadly sword and shield.

Magical guidance (reroll failed rolls for 1 MM point), tides of chaos (gives advantage, use restored after every 1st lvl or higher SORC spell is cast) and bend luck (spend 1 MM point to add or subtract d4 to a roll, costs reaction though - most importantly, can be used on enemies without save) drastically expand the options available to Cayetan. Feat: Wild Talent allows me to add a psionic dice that scales with level (d6 to d12) to my CHA rolls and attacks, amongst other things. Shield, enhance ability, enlarge/reduce, blink, mirror image and later on skill empowerment all also give me more options to make my teammates surely succeed whenever it truly counts. Feat: Lucky was also an obvious choice, which lets you get super advantage (an extra d20, which can be added on top of disadvantage/advantage) 3 times per long rest. Going halfling would've allowed for even more optimal fortune bending but alas, halflings don't get the great carry capacity the centaur does. As is, I'm carrying a crap ton of equipment, weapons, rations, supplies, kits (alchemist, herbalist, climbing), tents, common conveniences (mirrors, combs) as well as multiple changes of clothes, with plenty of carrying cap left to carry an unconscious teammate in a hurry.

Right now I have two options when it comes to level progression.
1. Continue straight sorcerer to get more sorcery points + some character appropriate roleplay spells, like otherworldly form (appear like an angelic servant of the Earthen God), Earthquake (obligatory) or wish (options!).
2. Get 3 levels in Rune Knight for more buff/debuff options, a battlemaster dice & at least 1 lvl in bard to access those inspiration dice, and maybe mage initiate or a class or two in warlock to get the talisman buffs. Warlock's not really worth it though.

As it stands my char's lvl7, and by lvl9 can with careful resource and action management using haste:
-Add to every ABI check, attack or save up to +3d4, +d8 (CHA only) advantage (+d20), super advantage (+d20), or subtract d4 to 2d4 per round.
-Replace two rolls per long rest.
-Provide any other utility benefits a high lvl spellcaster can.
-Immunities to a shit ton of conditions through things like heroism or environmental manipulation.
-The one downside is that the character itself is really maladapted for save or die spells, spell attacks and melee damage in general. This never bothered me as I hate save or die spells, spell attacks and damage counting to begin with, and the buffs you can add to your party mates or yourself more than compensate for the paucity of 20 tier stats. It also means you can make your multiclass-averse best friend shirk in horror as they finally find out the straight cleric they think they've been adventuring with has secretly been a cleric-wizard-sorcerer-fighter-bard the whole time.

Whether I decide to go the route of adding fighter/bard dice or not, I'd say I've been pretty satisfied with my first proper magic man character... Even if it's not a "proper" magic man who cries lightning bolts and sneezes fireballs. That'll come later, no doubt when I make a muscle wizard that only speaks in Ancestor and Bane quotes. What's even better is I'd say my focus on making other player chars shine instead of making my own shine has in turn led to less main character roleplay, and more team player roleplay. A L L   A C C O R D I N G   T O   K E I K A K U

Anyways this has been a way too large wall of text. Sorry if it bores; I couldn't decide if I wanted to talk about the social dynamic, the roleplay adventure or the dice rolling more.
*EDIT
It should go without saying that the theoretical maximum amount of dice roll hasn't happened yet, because in actual play it is much better to only use as many extra dice as your comrades need to succeed. To go all out leaves you rather unarmed for subsequent encounters, and has only happened once - whilst searching for a relic on a crashing airship in the middle of a dragon fight. After all, the help action is free advantage. I could also use find familiar owl help action shenanigens, but the charm of this character is that their in-character impact is them appearing with their God's banner held high and inspiring everyone to charge into the fray. Plus with a venomous snake familiar you can make plenty of snake milking puns whenever you're collecting venom for potion making. But yea, besides the unbelievable luck people experience around them, there's nothing empirical to prove as the result of Cayetan. The paladin player RPd perfectly in character how their char felt inexplicable strength and guidance helping them slay an ancient dragon. It's a very low fantasy kind of shenaniganery, where your impact is felt but not seen. I just love it, it actually feels like magic at work

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 14, 2020, 03:09:01 pm

Presumably a great deal of houseruling/homebrewing involved?


Honestly, I'm half inclined to agree with you on the point about 5e magic (not that previous editions have been any less guilty of making the mundanes redundant/irrelevant), but I think that comes down to a matter of how the book is worded rather than actual scope.

The spells have their utility expressly written out in more-or-less understandable language. Even "Swiss army spells" like Prestidigitation or Thaumaturgy have suggested boundaries that help refine the scope of specific usages. And when challenge rolls are called for, it's again made relatively clear what modifiers the roller is using and what modifiers are being rolled against.

Skills and tools? Much less documentation in the base book. As such, you get people wondering just what they can do with an herbalism kit, or a carpentry kit, or the like.

Of course, there's the obvious answer of "A carpentry kit lets you do stuff with wood!" which, yeah... But what stuff? How often? Is it just the crafting of items as per the section of downtime activities, or can I also use the included chisel to mark trees, or use it to rig some wooden palings for a trap (rather uncreative example I know, but bear with me)?

Naturally, the answer is a resounding "Yes!"... But it's also "No". There aren't any specific rules or wordings attached to it. As such, you have to rely on the DM seeing your way of things, and then having them define what DCs, modifiers, rolls etc. would be involved in such a situation. Heck, tools don't even have specific ability scores assigned to them in most cases! You may have though you were building a skilled carpenter, but then you hit the game and your DM feels that INT is the appropriate stat mod, not DEX.


Because of this uncertainty, people will gravitate towards the magical side of things because it offers relatively clear, concise uses that you can then actually build strategies and approaches around rather than wondering "but can I even attempt to do this to begin with?". I really would've liked to see more attention paid to the skills and tools in the PHB, to make them and their usage more obvious to players.

All that said, fuck Goodberry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 14, 2020, 03:11:41 pm

welcome to goodberry home of the goodberry may I take your order

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 14, 2020, 05:18:56 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on December 14, 2020, 03:11:41 pm

welcome to goodberry home of the goodberry may I take your order

Yeah I'll have the uhhhh...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 14, 2020, 07:18:14 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 14, 2020, 03:09:01 pm

Presumably a great deal of houseruling/homebrewing involved?

If you're talking about the build, nah no houseruling or homebrewing needed. There's some Unearthed Arcana multiclassing involved but you could get rid of the UA classes if your DM doesn't like them and just use players handbook classes like wild magic sorcerer, divination wizard, any cleric to get an identical effect. Lucky feat is also frankly broken (in the sense that there is no benefit/opportunity cost to taking it, whatever your character is) and the only feat I consider banning whenever I DM. I only use it now with a clean conscience because it's all part of the unbelievable fortune theme

Quote from: Kagus on December 14, 2020, 03:09:01 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Honestly, I'm half inclined to agree with you on the point about 5e magic (not that previous editions have been any less guilty of making the mundanes redundant/irrelevant), but I think that comes down to a matter of how the book is worded rather than actual scope.
The spells have their utility expressly written out in more-or-less understandable language. Even "Swiss army spells" like Prestidigitation or Thaumaturgy have suggested boundaries that help refine the scope of specific usages. And when challenge rolls are called for, it's again made relatively clear what modifiers the roller is using and what modifiers are being rolled against.
Skills and tools? Much less documentation in the base book. As such, you get people wondering just what they can do with an herbalism kit, or a carpentry kit, or the like.
Of course, there's the obvious answer of "A carpentry kit lets you do stuff with wood!" which, yeah... But what stuff? How often? Is it just the crafting of items as per the section of downtime activities, or can I also use the included chisel to mark trees, or use it to rig some wooden palings for a trap (rather uncreative example I know, but bear with me)?

Naturally, the answer is a resounding "Yes!"... But it's also "No". There aren't any specific rules or wordings attached to it. As such, you have to rely on the DM seeing your way of things, and then having them define what DCs, modifiers, rolls etc. would be involved in such a situation. Heck, tools don't even have specific ability scores assigned to them in most cases! You may have though you were building a skilled carpenter, but then you hit the game and your DM feels that INT is the appropriate stat mod, not DEX.
Because of this uncertainty, people will gravitate towards the magical side of things because it offers relatively clear, concise uses that you can then actually build strategies and approaches around rather than wondering "but can I even attempt to do this to begin with?". I really would've liked to see more attention paid to the skills and tools in the PHB, to make them and their usage more obvious to players.

All that said, fuck Goodberry.

It's a horrendous confluence of numerous design choices that make for nice dungeon crawling and bad campaigning. So if you use DND to play with dungeons and dragons, great. If you try to use it for a campaign... You're in the hands of the DM.

1. The problem of skills vs magic. Even if you overcome the danger of whether or not your DM will allow your skill check, the first issue is that magic always succeeds, at the cost of expending a magic bullet, in contrast to every skill check. With each skill check your DM first has to decide whether you can make the roll, then you're put in the hands of the random number God - and there's a 50/50 chance you'll roll above or below 10. Meaning its possible to fail at the things your char is supposedly skilled at with disheartening regularity - especially when an easy task is DC10. This is mitigated with the fighter's abundant ABIs or the rogue's skills, but even then you're dealing with oddities like the atheist wizard knowing more about the cleric or barbarian's religion than they do. The second issue is that creative roleplay solution you can do with a barb/fighter/rogue's skillset, you can also do with a druid/wizard/bard's skillset and magic. Top that all off with the problem of some DMs allowing continual skill rerolls upon failure and other DMs not, versus the certainty power of a spell always doing as advertised... It gets hard to stay relevant the more players have spell lists when a few don't.
I'll never forget how my fisherman barbarian couldn't actually get good at fishing mechanically because of his shit survival skill, then my wizard friend just shot the lake he was standing in with lightning to get all the fish.

Spoiler: personal ranting time (click to show/hide)

Perhaps most frustratingly, this places so much onus on the DM to make it work instead of the system simply working. For four years I had to struggle with three of my friends in sequence over the course of their DMing careers. They actively shot down uses of equipment to overcome enemies and obstacles in creative ways. The first considered it completely overpowered when my barbarian used nets, hunting traps, caltrops, vantage points, explosives and so on to defeat enemies, and so had two neutral NPC wizards cast hold person me in sequence and just arrest me, throw me in jail and confiscate all my goodies. Didn't even get any chance to escape arrest, escape prison, defend myself in court e.t.c., but the end result was that I had a character who sucked at social interactions, couldn't participate in the 80% of problems that were solvable only by understanding arcana or casting magic, and whose only actions in combat was to "hit thing with axe." To be completely outshone even in combat and aquatic exploration was just the cherry on top.

The second was soul-killing, as whenever my rogue would take the time to scout ahead, forge letters of authority and military disguises after learning about the enemy chain of command, even after successfully impersonating the enemy general - conflicts still ensued and only ended after the bard cast charm person. After encountering a blind avatar of pestilence (this thing was level 26 ffs, our party was lvl5), our one advantage was that it was blind, though we still weren't clear how it could tell where we were despite its lack of eyes. My rogue uses various distractions in a museum chase to test whether it can see or not, culminating in it running straight into a hunting trap. It failed the dex save, but the DM described how it continued running unimpeded with the hunting trap stuck on its leg. I described how this was impossible as I had chained it to a museum pillar. He was incredulous, asking if my rogue could truly deploy and chain a hunting trap in 6 seconds (one action). Rules as written, yes. Ordinarily I wouldn't argue with the DM on this, but as this thing was twice as fast as our fastest party member - if the creature was allowed to get within range with a free action next to our bard (the last person in the fleeing party), they would be one shot killed. So instead the DM describes how the avatar of pestilence cuts off its leg (which grows back!) and chases after our bard, attacking - only for me to remind the DM that the avatar already used its action cutting off its leg. This culminated in a brilliant chase up a staircase where my rogue lay down a chain for myself and the bard to descend, and once the avatar of pestilence reached the top of the staircase - we would jump. This would force the quadrupedal avatar of pestilence to come back down the staircase, where the rogue and bard had set up a hunting trap, a perfume fire and a whole bunch of lubrication oil to buy us enough time to flee.
The avatar of pestilence, despite not having eyes to know such a trap had been placed, used magic to just walk down the side of the wall.

The third DM thought my monk was OP because he excelled in the first session (which was a prison break scenario. Unsurprisingly the monk does well in comparison when everyone in the party is unarmoured and unarmed. But the main problem was that every time anyone did anything, there would be a roll. I grab the reigns of a lizard mount. Neither of us are moving, this is not a combat situation, the lizard mount is not disturbed by me - this is just grabbing the reigns of a docile lizard mount. Roll animal handling. Succeed. I grab the reigns of the other lizard mount. Roll animal handling. Get a 1; the lizards all stampede, alerting all of the guards outside. I ask, what guards? I just spent all day watching this stable with a successful stealth check and there were no guards. DM explains how "oh no, you were just stealthing in the rafters the whole day, you couldn't see anything." I'm incredulous, strongly asserting that my character spent the whole day looking for guards, they would not have just looked in one room for guards. DM meets me halfway, says the guards run away to grab more guards. Cue a third animal handling roll to get on the lizard mount, then a fourth animal handling roll to get it run out, followed by a contested grapple vs two of the door guards which I win because haha fuck you I have expertise in acrobatics.
I had planned this daring stablebreak at daylight because the guards were all drow who would have disadvantage to follow in the light of day, but the DM describes how they still see where I am going clearly through the winding city at daytime, so I roll a stealth check anyways and still pass, escaping into the city. DM describes how I am being pursued nevertheless because they can still track me, so I roll survival to erase my tracks and succeed. DM describes how they are still pursuing and asks me to roll another stealth, this time to see how well I am at "hiding my sound."
Tired of this, I just cast silence using ki points. No more rolls. Just blissful escape.
That is until I start speaking to the NPCs and have to roll every time I make a statement or a question, and every fucking NPC turns hostile every time someone rolls low. TO TOP IT ALL OFF, my character had scouted ahead and determined there were rival skaven clanrats living in the city. Being a skaven, my rogue knew not to trust anything. In a tavern where my skaven rolled to check the walls (specifically describing in exact detail how they looked inside the walls for skaven, the DM just tells me "you are confident there are no skaven in the walls."

THERE WERE IN FACT SKAVEN IN THE WALLS. YOU'RE TELLING ME A 14 WAS TOO LOW FOR A SKAVEN SEARCHING FOR SKAVEN IN THE HIDING PLACE WHERE HE KNOWS SKAVEN ARE HIDING TO NOTICE THERE ARE SKAVEN THERE?


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

So anyways, this is why I tend to avoid having my players roll when they come up with a cool idea in character. The one exception is one of my players who just loves rolling dice and feels like there's less suspense if the chance of failure isn't there, so for him I just fuck with the maths by changing DCs, mods or advantages so his astronomer doesn't have a 50% of failing to identify the constellations he studies.

The way I see it; if it's something magic could fix without a concentration save, it doesn't need a skill roll (or just a piss easy DC to preserve the illusion of high chaos). The skill rolls should only be done when dealing with something incredibly difficult, something incredibly technical (tool proficiencies for example), or something simple done under intense pressure (e.g. under combat, slow-moving trap or extreme environmental conditions).

2. The game inherently divides what can be achieved by a hero relying on themselves versus a hero relying on magic. To bring up my earlier example in more detail, A lvl 20 barbarian or a level 20 fighter can't use (and in many instances, not even attain) the intelligence and cunning of Conan or Odysseus. A level 20 fighter can't win a fight with the god of love, the god of war and still end the day thinking he can fight the sun like Diomedes. Yet a level 5 spellcaster starts dropping Zeus's lightning bolts or Saruman's fireballs, and it while Billy the Spearman is struggling to match the feats of an ordinary human athlete at lvl20, your spell list boi is causing Poseidon's earthquakes, bringing people back from the dead, stopping time or reshaping reality. Just kinda sucks when one guy gets another attack whilst another guy can summon a black hole.

In short, guys without a spell list become more powerful fighters + more specialised in their niche. Whereas guys with a spell list become more powerful fighters, have all of their existing choices increase in power, gain access to more powerful choices and gain access to even more choices to develop their skillet/toolset. A lvl 20 fighter is an overcharged lvl 5 fighter, but a lvl 20 druid really is a lvl 20 druid with Prospero or Pan level power - both in terms of world impact and the breadth of options they possess for dealing with any problem.

2.1. As an extension of this problem, DND's magic ignores its own rules. An archer can miss, but save or die spells do not. All martially orientated classes are balanced against HP bloat, armour classes, tankiness and save weaknesses, but magic orientated classes can choose spells with guaranteed damage/effects, spells that target enemy save weaknesses and spells that eliminate enemies from fights or overcome obstacles without any need to think.

2.2. Interesting situations rapidly become mundane when teleportation, lie detection, supply conjuration is as easy as snapping your fingers, turning moral or logstical problems into "do you have the 'I win' button or not?" Even worse when there are magical problems which can only be solved by magic. My DM fucking loves my characters because I deliberately avoid picking teleportation magic and make my chars weigh too much for a flying character to carry. It means the party has in character reasons to not keep dancing away from his lovingly crafted encounters :[

2.3. The "anything you can do I can do better, and I can do it with magic." The one stat the casters use all provide much more skill points than STR or DEX, whether it's INT, CHA or WIS. This severely contributes to the irrelevance of the other classes in mature campaigns; the spellcasters are innately skilled, capable of dominating combat, and have a whole host of exclusive abilities on top of abilities which replace the other classes' core features. A rogue's expertise skill monkeying vs a bard's expertise & jack of all trades skill monkeying for example. Even between spellcasters and halfcasters you can see how you could play a bard and get expertise, jack of all trades, and gain access to the ranger's spell list before the ranger could. Or how you could play a wizard and never need a druid, cleric, bard, sorcerer or warlock.

Lastly, this one may just be personal taste though, but I find there's so little magical about DND magic. You don't feel like you're messing with arcane forces, God's power, the wrath of nature, eldritch ancestry or a faustian pact. You feel more like a technician who knows exactly what their capabilities are, exactly what their results will be, managing a ledger of magic bullets you get for free everyday. Whilst this may work for roleplaying a warlock who is being given an explicit list of what they can use and when they can use it, for everyone else it's just nowhere near as chaotic as the rest of the d20 philosophy for skill checks. Add a dark heresy psyker mishap table however, or other equally spicy changes like spell channeling or spell improv, and it brings that magic back to the tabletop

Quote from: Kagus on December 14, 2020, 05:18:56 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on December 14, 2020, 03:11:41 pm

welcome to goodberry home of the goodberry may I take your order

Yeah I'll have the uhhhh...

uhhhhhhhhhhh.... Does that... No... uhhhhhhh... Yeah uhhh can I get a goodberry with the goodberry special?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 14, 2020, 10:28:14 pm

Yeah, that sounds like TTRPGs (magic is better, magic can solve nonmagical problems even though only magic can solve magical problems, the GM asking for more rolls means you're less likely to succeed, the GM being too permissive or not permissive enough hugely changes the game, etc.), especially D&D.

I don't know if the advice is still in the DMG, but the original 5e documents suggested ignoring all modifiers, and base success or failure on whether or not the player rolled well (above 10). Just make it a d2 game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 14, 2020, 10:34:53 pm

I wonder if the problem was better or far worse in old-school TSR D&D.  Back then outside of 2nd's optional non-weapon proficiency rules, nobody outside of the thief class had explicitly defined skills, much less chance to succeed.

It might have also helped that magic users had less spells per day, and leveled up slower than a fighter or thief did.  Fighters were the only ones to get more than one attack per turn, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on December 15, 2020, 08:42:41 am

Leveled up slower and game was generally deadlier, old school doesn't rely on defined skill checks as much as adjudication by the DM.  When I'm playing old school I rarely roll for skills, if you explain what you're doing and it makes sense, unless there's significant consequences for failure you just do the thing.  The problem with that is it can turn into a mother-may-I thing, but the ultimate solution to this is to play a different game, or to play D&D within a constrained context (e.g. levels 1-7 or 1-11 for 3.5), or to not let the PCs rest constantly.

A wizard can open any lock automatically, but that's a spell slot he could've used on something else (I do not like the changes 5e made to the spell slot system for wizards).  Unless you're setting up encounters so PCs can regularly rest, it's kind of stupid to waste a limited resource on things other party members can do with no limit, even if there's a chance of failure (Pst, just bring back taking 20), especially if you're still playing 3.5 where the wizard actually has to prepare the redundant utility spells at the expense of things only a wizard can do.  If I was a wizard I just wouldn't prepare knock because we have a rogue in the party.  I'd prepare something a rogue can't do.  Obviously at like level 15 this isn't really an issue anymore with spell slots, but why would you ever play D&D that high, it doesn't work that high.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 15, 2020, 12:13:43 pm

If you need balance between players (or at least enough that the mage isn't always taking the spotlight), and all/no spellcasters game would be best.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 15, 2020, 12:17:53 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on December 14, 2020, 07:18:14 pm

If you're talking about the build, nah no houseruling or homebrewing needed.

Alright, was asking because I don't think it works quite like how you seem to be describing. For one thing, you don't just automatically get back Wild Magic's Tides of Chaos by casting a level 1 slot or higher.

Quote

Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature.

So 1) it's reliant on the DM deciding you can get it back, and 2) you have to roll on the surge table. ...I suppose it technically doesn't say that the rolled effect takes place, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a DM who'd just let you roll on the table without it doing anything :P

Also, if you're at 7th level with 1 in Cleric and 2 in Diviner... You have at most 1 feat under base (optional!) rules. 2 if you're a variant human, but this example is a centaur so no go as far as that's concerned. Also you're learning Dunamancy spells without specializing in either Chronurgy or Graviturgy, which are the specializations that normally get access to that list. There is however this suggestion listed:

Quote

However, the Dungeon Master can consider allowing other spellcasting classes opportunities to learn a handful of dunamancy-themed spells as rewards. Perhaps the characters uncover a cache of magical contraband, among which is a couple of spell scrolls, or a traveling acolyte takes some downtime with a friendly cleric character and opens their mind to some of the stranger secrets of the universe, unlocking a spell or two.

So I suppose that might have happened. Or the DM just doesn't mind, especially seeing as UA content is being allowed.


Also I'm wondering where that +3d4 on checks is coming from... +1d4 from Bless, +1d4 from Bond of Unity, +1d4 from... What? There's Bend Luck, but that's a level 6 class ability for Wild Magic Sorc, which unless this level 7 example has skipped Diviner, it doesn't have.

As an aside: "According to Crawford..." (:P) you can actually just use disadvantage on a roll and then apply Lucky, which will let you select any of the three d20s rolled. Thereby turning disadvantage into super-advantage. So if you need to make a tricky shot, just "believe in the guidance of the divine!", close your eyes, and shoot. Blind for disadvantage, Lucky for super advantage. Balance, yay! (gotta admit though, that is kinda cool fluff)

Saves some resources, if your DM lets you play "the way it's intended".



One thing I thought of though when looking at your build... Dumping CHA might actually be a fun way to play Wild Magic Sorcerer. Most of the negative rolls on the surge table trigger a saving throw, so if you trash your save DC you can much more freely trigger surges and then just roll your way through the shitty DCs. Focus on spells that don't rely on your spell attack or save bonuses, and surge the fuck outta those class abilities!


As for the ranting... Christ alive man, that sounds awful and I am here for that rant. I mean, the first might just have been misguided, the second possibly only inexperienced and rail-roady, but that third dude definitely sounds like he had an outright vendetta against you. Good lord.

I'm definitely with you as far as 5e magic not seeming particularly... "Weighty". I haven't gotten to play any Dark Heresy, but presumably the magic system is more or less the same as in WFRP. For all its "You are now extra-dead. Roll a new character", I still really liked the way it was handled as a general concept. Sure, you can try and use magic to cover all your needs, and there's not even an arbitrary maximum number of times a day you can do it! ...but if you do, you run some serious risks. Better make sure it's worth it, mageling.

Not only that, but it even featured material components that actually meant something, as opposed to 5e's system of just "lol fuck it".


Also yes, having a specialist suffer that high of a failure chance when doing specifically the thing they're good at is another pet peeve I've been coming across in 5th. I ended up using one of my portent dice in a session because my character was transcribing ancient draconic writing on some stone ruins we discovered after a fight. To note: My character has been studying magic, religion, and specifically ancient tribal religions for his entire academic career (i.e., his life). He specifically has been looking into this region, with the help of an anthropologist who specialized in precisely the dragonborn tribes in this area. I was asked to roll.

Considering how important this discovery is to my character and his goals, I opted to just burn a portent die for the sake of making sure I didn't fuck it up and doodle penises all over the parchment I was trying to write down the inscriptions on.

Later, we ended up in a fight and I decided to check out the enemy spellcaster because I am also a spellcaster and maybe the spellcaster had some fun spellcaster things on his person. Roll Investigation. Okay, I have +6 to Investigation, this should be... total of 8. I find three gold pieces.

Then the +0 Investigation Barbarian comes over, searches the same body, and comes up with a scroll of Expeditious Retreat for me.


And since I've been playing a Diviner, I will absolutely agree that portent dice are a solid part of everything wrong with 5e spellcasting. Our last combat encounter was ended almost before it began because I identified the enemy as a threat, and decided to give this fight everything I had! ...which means "I cast [broken disabling spell] with a DC of 14. They roll an 11".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 15, 2020, 12:47:15 pm

Call me crazy but rolling the wild magic surge table and discarding the result sounds a little fun tho

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 15, 2020, 12:54:15 pm

Probably shouldn't be asked to roll investigation for searching a body thoroughly, unless you're in a hurry (IE, have to get it done in a single round cause the cops are after you) or the item you're looking for is particularly well hidden. Though, if the GM disagrees with that notion, what can you do? :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 15, 2020, 01:07:54 pm

Actually yeah, 3.5e has rules for this!  You can take 10 on actions when you aren't distracted or threatened, and it doesn't even take more time.  It's perfect for situations where your modifiers are good enough that you don't need a great roll.

Taking 20 takes 2 minutes for full-round actions, codifying that you can totally keep trying most (obviously not all) skill checks.  It suggests that it does work for escape artist, open lock, and search.

Looks like that was all dropped for 5e  :(

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 15, 2020, 01:11:47 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 15, 2020, 12:54:15 pm

Probably shouldn't be asked to roll investigation for searching a body thoroughly, unless you're in a hurry (IE, have to get it done in a single round cause the cops are after you) or the item you're looking for is particularly well hidden. Though, if the GM disagrees with that notion, what can you do? :v

Roll to see if you *dare* to search the corpse *thoroughly*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 15, 2020, 01:18:04 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on December 15, 2020, 01:07:54 pm

Actually yeah, 3.5e has rules for this!  You can take 10 on actions when you aren't distracted or threatened, and it doesn't even take more time.  It's perfect for situations where your modifiers are good enough that you don't need a great roll.

Taking 20 takes 2 minutes for full-round actions, codifying that you can totally keep trying most (obviously not all) skill checks.  It suggests that it does work for escape artist, open lock, and search.

Looks like that was all dropped for 5e  :(

Assuming I'm a GM, I'd prefer 5e because it's less rules lawyering towards me and I don't need special rules to tell me the obvious: that unless you're in a big hurry, thoroughly searching a single drawer isn't really possible to fail. And really, if failing a roll would be vastly less interesting than succeeding, or just make the player keep rolling then it's a waste of time and you should just let it succeed for story reasons.

Assuming I'm a player, of course, those rules for obvious things are useful, because I can rules lawyer them at the GM to get the result I want. :v

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2020, 12:15:35 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on December 15, 2020, 01:07:54 pm

Actually yeah, 3.5e has rules for this!  You can take 10 on actions when you aren't distracted or threatened, and it doesn't even take more time.  It's perfect for situations where your modifiers are good enough that you don't need a great roll.

Taking 20 takes 2 minutes for full-round actions, codifying that you can totally keep trying most (obviously not all) skill checks.  It suggests that it does work for escape artist, open lock, and search.

Looks like that was all dropped for 5e  :(

5e does have taking 10 for Passive checks, the issue there is people like to roll dice and forget passive checks exist for stuff that's not Perception.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2020, 12:19:07 pm

If anybody here manages to get their hands on a copy of Cyberpunk RED, I'd be interested in hearing an in-depth review.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 16, 2020, 12:56:23 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2020, 12:19:07 pm

If anybody here manages to get their hands on a copy of Cyberpunk RED, I'd be interested in hearing an in-depth review.

There's a thread on it in other games.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on December 16, 2020, 01:01:55 pm

a perfect score of 5/7

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2020, 01:13:15 pm

Quote from: Iduno on December 16, 2020, 12:56:23 pm

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on December 16, 2020, 12:19:07 pm

If anybody here manages to get their hands on a copy of Cyberpunk RED, I'd be interested in hearing an in-depth review.

There's a thread on it in other games.

Not interested in the seizure simulator, just the tabletop which is apparently deeply sold out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 16, 2020, 04:48:18 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2020, 12:15:35 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on December 15, 2020, 01:07:54 pm

Actually yeah, 3.5e has rules for this!  You can take 10 on actions when you aren't distracted or threatened, and it doesn't even take more time.  It's perfect for situations where your modifiers are good enough that you don't need a great roll.

Taking 20 takes 2 minutes for full-round actions, codifying that you can totally keep trying most (obviously not all) skill checks.  It suggests that it does work for escape artist, open lock, and search.

Looks like that was all dropped for 5e  :(

5e does have taking 10 for Passive checks, the issue there is people like to roll dice and forget passive checks exist for stuff that's not Perception.

That, and there's the bit about Passive Perception check DCs being placed about 5 points higher than what the active check DC would be, hence why Observant gives as large a bonus it does (but what the fuck even is passive investigation?)

But yeah, taking 10 is a thing I'd like to see more of vis a vis 5e... Or at least something along those lines, such as requiring proficiency/expertise with particular tools to be allowed to do "X" outright, without a roll, rather than just making proficiency a thing that gives you a very slightly higher chance of rolling to do the thing that apparently anyone can do.

3.5 may have been a bit of a clusterfuck, but I do appreciate some of the things it did with skills.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 16, 2020, 09:01:38 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 16, 2020, 04:48:18 pm

But yeah, taking 10 is a thing I'd like to see more of vis a vis 5e... Or at least something along those lines, such as requiring proficiency/expertise with particular tools to be allowed to do "X" outright, without a roll, rather than just making proficiency a thing that gives you a very slightly higher chance of rolling to do the thing that apparently anyone can do.

3.5 may have been a bit of a clusterfuck, but I do appreciate some of the things it did with skills.

Every edition was a clusterfuck in a completely new and interesting way. Although the skills are mostly ripped off Earthdawn, except with a finite RNG, which doesn't always work. Especially with things like diplomacy where the minimum and maximum are 50 or so apart, and the entire RNG is 20.

Taking 10 was a very good idea, though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on December 17, 2020, 11:50:11 am

d20 in general I'm not a huge fan of, extremely swingy.  I like dice pools, or just 2d6 systems, where things follow a more bell-curve distribution

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 27, 2020, 08:35:43 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 17, 2020, 11:50:11 am

d20 in general I'm not a huge fan of, extremely swingy.  I like dice pools, or just 2d6 systems, where things follow a more bell-curve distribution

I feel that. Heck, I've even had fun with d100 systems like WFRP, which while still being a very swingy system at least doesn't have quite so much "10% chance to ignore all the modifying statistics on accuracy".


In other news, I've been picking up bits and pieces from Tasha's, and as with everyone else I'm looking for funky little interactions. One thing I'm noticing is the Investment of the Chain Master invocation for Warlocks. So, at the moment, that seems to basically just mean "oh hey, Sprite/Quasit/Pseudodragon poisons with slightly better DCs!"; as it would unfortunately appear that things like the Raven's mimicry and the Octopus' grappling are more contested ability checks than saving throws, and therefore aren't improved by it. Sadface.


Eldritch Adept does open up a lot of stuff though. Misty Visions for Illusionists, Mask of Many Faces for Bards (as if they didn't already get up to enough shenanigans as-is). Heck, there are even some peculiar interactions with the cast-at-will invocations and stuff like Storm Sorcerer. Because the Storm Sorcerer's gust of 10' movement can be activated immediately before or after you "cast a spell of 1st level or higher". Since this specifically refers to the spell level and not the spell slot level, it should be usable.

Armor of Shadows + Abjurer is thus now an even cheesier method of recharging the arcane ward than casting Alarm as a ritual.

Thief of Five Fates is just a bit broken though... Taking it through Eldritch Adept, if you're not a Warlock, means you have successfully burned a feat on absolutely nothing. But by RAW, it's still one of the invocations you can pick up through that feat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 27, 2020, 02:41:08 pm

What do you mean by thief of five fates?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 27, 2020, 03:16:35 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on December 27, 2020, 02:41:08 pm

What do you mean by thief of five fates?

The Warlock invocation, not any sort of class thingy... Sorry, was running on a bit of a schedule when I wrote that, didn't clean up the formatting much ::)

Quote from: Warlock invocations

Thief of Five Fates

You can cast Bane once using a warlock spell slot. You can't do so again until you finish a long rest.

Which, since it doesn't have any listed prerequisites, is technically viable as a pick for non-Warlocks taking the Eldritch Adept feat. ...which is problematic, since they won't have Warlock spell slots to actually cast it with. So unless you do eventually end up taking Warlock levels, it's... Utterly useless.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 27, 2020, 03:39:36 pm

Isn't that a bit like a multiclass wizard/any spellcaster being able to record spells they have spell slots for, but being unable to cast any of them if it doesn't have wizard spell slots to prepare them? Kinda amusing to have these sorts of things.

"I made a pact with the devil to cast magic but the devil don't give me slots"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 27, 2020, 03:53:15 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on December 27, 2020, 03:39:36 pm

Isn't that a bit like a multiclass wizard/any spellcaster being able to record spells they have spell slots for, but being unable to cast any of them if it doesn't have wizard spell slots to prepare them?

That one at least did get errata'd, so now you're only allowed to scribe spells you can actually prepare. Hence why the big fiery Magic Missile wombo combo I wrote about earlier (that I've now actually found multiple other people going on about in munchkin circles) doesn't work per the rules...

But this particular invocation does confuse me a bit. While there are several choices and feats that can be said to be functionally worthless, there usually aren't character choices a player can make that are universally null. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something and they made some tweaks I haven't read about yet.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 27, 2020, 04:09:56 pm

On the other hand, that is an extremely devil-dealish kind of premise. "Oh, you totally get the power to cast Bane once a aday *wink wink*"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 27, 2020, 04:45:04 pm

I don't really see it as anything different from the fact that there's nothing stopping you generally from taking proficiency in a skill you already have, other than common sense. For instance you could take the Skilled feat and pick three skills you're already proficient in, and absolutely nothing would prevent you from doing that.

With Thief of Beguiling Fate, its useless without warlock levels, but at least you can always multiclass into warlock later if you want to make use of it. And its not like there's plenty of other options to take.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 08, 2021, 11:12:14 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.giantitp.com//comics/oots/oots0340.gif)

Conjuration as a barred school? Even before teleportation, it had all of the good cloud attack spells (better versions of fireball), summons, and spells for tactical combat. I mean, grease is great at level 1, even if it isn't flammable anymore.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 08, 2021, 12:25:16 pm

Quote from: Iduno on January 08, 2021, 11:12:14 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.giantitp.com//comics/oots/oots0340.gif)

Conjuration as a barred school? Even before teleportation, it had all of the good cloud attack spells (better versions of fireball), summons, and spells for tactical combat. I mean, grease is great at level 1, even if it isn't flammable anymore.

(image fixed)
Yeah it's an odd pick.  I heard it was specifically to keep V from having teleport, a spell which generally makes travel unnecessary in 3.5, as pointed out in that comic.  But there's a lot of Divination that could also disrupt the narrative if V chose to use it more.

I guess that actually comes up a few times, with epic magic like Xykon's warding keeping the suspense alive.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 08, 2021, 04:41:12 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 08, 2021, 12:25:16 pm

Yeah it's an odd pick.  I heard it was specifically to keep V from having teleport, a spell which generally makes travel unnecessary in 3.5, as pointed out in that comic.  But there's a lot of Divination that could also disrupt the narrative if V chose to use it more.

I guess that actually comes up a few times, with epic magic like Xykon's warding keeping the suspense alive.

Yeah, Divination's usefulness varies wildly depending on how it gets used and how effective the GM allows it to be. It is half of scry-and-die for a reason, though.

Enchantment allows you to control an enemy, which is one better than removing a single enemy. Evocation has half of the attack spells, which are okay if you somehow get put up against enemies who are immune to all of the other ways to remove them from combat. Illusion is amazing if you're creative, unless the GM decides everyone sees through illusions all of the time. Necromancy is somewhat similar to conjuration with healing, undead, and some combat uses. Transmutation has the buffs and debuffs, plus the real BS skills-ignoring spells like knock and levitate. And then it also has polymorph, and had teleportation.

Outside of divination and illusion, which are very GM-dependent, evocation would probably be the easiest to do without, with necromancy a close second?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2021, 06:19:56 pm

Quote from: Iduno on January 08, 2021, 04:41:12 pm

Outside of divination and illusion, which are very GM-dependent, evocation would probably be the easiest to do without, with necromancy a close second?

B-but but, Fireball!

Also really depends on version, because there were some really useful/powerful utility spells snuck into both Evocation and Necromancy at various points.


And oh hey... Tasha's new feats open up whole new worlds of stupidity. Take Fighting Initiate: Unarmed Combat on anyone to make them surprisingly fisty. Finally you can make that Punchlock you've always dreamed of, taking Investment of the Chain Master so you can tag-team a grappled opponent. And if you're a Hexblade, I guess the curse gives you +proficiency to the free 1d4 bludgeoning damage per turn as well? Hell of a chokehold you got yourself there, bud.

(Note: This is specifically for the fun/funny worlds of stupidity. Taking Blindsight or Devil's Sight on any character is of course probably a lot more "useful" than getting one step closer to Muscle Wizard)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kadzar on January 10, 2021, 02:43:11 am

Unarmed Combat is whatever. It's a thing you can take if you want, and it's not like most fighting styles are that great anyway.

The really stupid thing is taking Superior Technique with the Fighting Initiate Feat, because it only gives you one maneuver and nothing else, whereas if you took Martial Adept you could have gotten two.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 10, 2021, 04:02:24 am

Quote from: Kadzar on January 10, 2021, 02:43:11 am

Unarmed Combat is whatever. It's a thing you can take if you want, and it's not like most fighting styles are that great anyway.

The really stupid thing is taking Superior Technique with the Fighting Initiate Feat, because it only gives you one maneuver and nothing else, whereas if you took Martial Adept you could have gotten two.

Or picking Metamagic Adept and opting for Heightened Spell (which you can never use unless you take levels of Sorcerer) and Empowered Spell if you're not a CHA caster.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 02, 2021, 03:31:11 am

So I've been hanging out around the highly entertaining Goblin.bet arena, and been absent-mindedly thinking about D&D combat mechanics as a result.

Particularly, the idea that any amount of advantage cancels out any amount of disadvantage strikes me as... Well, it can lead to some odd situations. Like, if you're using the full range of a longbow and don't have Sharpshooter, you'll be firing at disadvantage since it's long range... But if the target doesn't see you (which is reasonably easy to accomplish at 300' away), then you get advantage on the attack. These two cancel each other out, and you fire normally.

And then you can close your eyes, and still have the same odds of hitting the target because Blinded can't provide any more disadvantage on the attack roll.


Is this RAW? Pretty much, yeah. Is the DM gonna let you get away with it? Probably not. Maybe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 02, 2021, 09:18:41 am

If you were doing something like that I'd probably rule that you can only hit on a natural 20 or something unless you're at the point that we're basically playing exalted, power-level-wise.

And I would be suspicious of you for a very long time for trying to do goofy RAW shit in my game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 02, 2021, 01:49:56 pm

You remember when WotC banned a content creator for having an OnlyFans while making Satine Phoenix one of the faces of the game?

Enjoy the latest official D&D Actual Play featuring Arieola Borealis, the boobie muppet. (https://twitter.com/TheJovenshire/status/1356660616090411008)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 02, 2021, 02:03:53 pm

At this time of day, at this time of year, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your twitter?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 02, 2021, 02:58:49 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 02, 2021, 03:31:11 am

So I've been hanging out around the highly entertaining Goblin.bet arena, and been absent-mindedly thinking about D&D combat mechanics as a result.

Particularly, the idea that any amount of advantage cancels out any amount of disadvantage strikes me as... Well, it can lead to some odd situations. Like, if you're using the full range of a longbow and don't have Sharpshooter, you'll be firing at disadvantage since it's long range... But if the target doesn't see you (which is reasonably easy to accomplish at 300' away), then you get advantage on the attack. These two cancel each other out, and you fire normally.

And then you can close your eyes, and still have the same odds of hitting the target because Blinded can't provide any more disadvantage on the attack roll.


Is this RAW? Pretty much, yeah. Is the DM gonna let you get away with it? Probably not. Maybe.

Yeah, the rules are meant to sort of make sense and cover some situations, but even they don't really have guidelines for when the rules work or don't. Weirdly, it's a magical world, but they're incredibly resistant to just saying "yeah, it works that way because magic" and not having to worry about what is or is not realistic. I'd respect it a lot more if they'd give one set of rules, explore what that means for the game (like you did here), and either decide the rules need something else or just say "yep, you got elf eyes/a magic bow/your family's black arrow/are just that good, now let's roll and see if you can land the shot." Much better than "well, sometimes the rules, but also sometimes not the rules?".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 02, 2021, 04:55:16 pm

Quote from: Iduno on February 02, 2021, 02:58:49 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 02, 2021, 03:31:11 am

So I've been hanging out around the highly entertaining Goblin.bet arena, and been absent-mindedly thinking about D&D combat mechanics as a result.

Particularly, the idea that any amount of advantage cancels out any amount of disadvantage strikes me as... Well, it can lead to some odd situations. Like, if you're using the full range of a longbow and don't have Sharpshooter, you'll be firing at disadvantage since it's long range... But if the target doesn't see you (which is reasonably easy to accomplish at 300' away), then you get advantage on the attack. These two cancel each other out, and you fire normally.

And then you can close your eyes, and still have the same odds of hitting the target because Blinded can't provide any more disadvantage on the attack roll.


Is this RAW? Pretty much, yeah. Is the DM gonna let you get away with it? Probably not. Maybe.

Yeah, the rules are meant to sort of make sense and cover some situations, but even they don't really have guidelines for when the rules work or don't. Weirdly, it's a magical world, but they're incredibly resistant to just saying "yeah, it works that way because magic" and not having to worry about what is or is not realistic. I'd respect it a lot more if they'd give one set of rules, explore what that means for the game (like you did here), and either decide the rules need something else or just say "yep, you got elf eyes/a magic bow/your family's black arrow/are just that good, now let's roll and see if you can land the shot." Much better than "well, sometimes the rules, but also sometimes not the rules?".

Weirdly? Thankfully. That's literally the worst excuse. For anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 02, 2021, 05:45:00 pm

Similarly, if I'm blurred, there's absolutely no reason for me to try and poison my enemy because it won't do diddly with the rolls. He already can't accurately determine my position, so moving slowly/sluggishly can't make it any worse.

And on the flip side, a barbarian fighting an invisible opponent can just go Reckless the whole time. Invis dude already has advantage against the barb, barb loses absolutely nothing by going reckless and neutralizing their disadvantage on attacks against the unseen opponent.

That last one can at least be reasoned out... He's going full offensive, which would presumably put the invisible opponent slightly more on their heels and they'd be less capable of capitalizing on the barbarian's lack of vision. But a lot of advantage/disadvantage stacking (or lack thereof) really just doesn't make much sense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on February 02, 2021, 06:42:43 pm

Yeah, its one of the interesting consequences of gamifying reality. D&D's goal isn't to be a life simulator, its goal is to be close enough to one while still being a game. So you get trade-offs like this.

One of the elegant things about advantage/disadvantage is its a fairly simple system that gets rid of a lot of bookkeeping around tracking modifiers. Now a lot of that bookkeeping was there to simulate real world things like targets being harder to hit when you can't see. And advantage/disadvantage still does that, but it does it in a way that's easy to remember and easy to track. So of course when you run into cases where a lot of things use the advantage/disadvantage system, things might get weird, but it still works in a way where you don't need to calculate 50 different modifiers in order to do something cool. Now, of course, if you like calculating those modifiers, there's nothing wrong with that, but it does take quite a bit of time at the table when you could be having fun describing your awesome shot at the dragon from 300 feet away.

I actually was in a game with a similar situation recently to your initial example of firing at long range and the reaction at the table wasn't "this is unrealistic that the blizzard and the long range can be cancelled out by hiding" but "I'd like to hit the dragon but I have disadvantage. What are things I can do to solve this problem and is it worth doing those instead of shooting at disadvantage". Because the trade-off worked for my table, but I can totally understand if it doesn't work for yours. The one area I don't like stacking advantage/disadvantage is the variant flanking rules. If I used flanking in my games, I'd probably use a flat bonus.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 02, 2021, 06:53:30 pm

Since DnD 5e seems to be the main accepted game to get people into roleplaying games (even though there are prolly better options, it's juts most popular), I do prefer there to be the advantage/disadvantage system rather than some big list of roll modifiers to count up. It's a simple and effective roll, and you're generally not going to see multiple advantages/disadvantages on the same roll in normal play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 07, 2021, 08:53:25 am

Oh, certainly. It does absolutely streamline the process significantly, and I approve of such efforts and intentions.

It's slightly inhibited by the fact that they went ahead and did add flat bonuses to things on top of that, but it's still far easier to keep track of for the most part. Doesn't stop it from looking a bit silly at times though.


Had a round last week, which ended up going into an apparently improvised trip to the elemental plane of water and a *very* improvised return from said plane a few minutes later, as the DM had apparently not expected the players to immediately jump blindly into the very-obviously-a-portal whirlpool (I'm really not sure what other possible course of action he could have predicted). I got to play around with Light a bit, which while it hasn't strictly speaking been a great deal of use this campaign, has certainly proven to be a very versatile and fun tool to muck with. Has so far still not been used for actually illuminating any dark areas.


I've also been fiddling with a couple character concepts, and somewhere along the line I got it into my head to try working out how best to exemplify a sort of stereotypical witch using 5e classes and archetypes. As it stands, I'm actually leaning rather towards Druid, particularly Wildfire Druid... Not only do you get fun abilities like the very thematic--if not super powerful--Produce Flame (hey, it's witchfire!), there's also classical witchy stuff like communing with or even turning into animals. But what I found out I really liked about the subclass is the level 10 ability that lets you sacrifice a goat to heal someone for 2d10+WIS. May not be the healiest of heals, but it's got loads of style!

I feel that Warlock feeds into a different side of traditional witchiness, such as familiars and having bargained their soul for unnatural powers, which is also fun... Speaking of which, has anyone gotten the chance to really play around with Investment of the Chain Master yet?

On the other side of things, I've been looking at small rune knights, for no other reason than because I think it's funny that it simply sets the size to Large instead of going up one step. And since it ties in with grappling as much as it does, small grapplers are additionally very entertaining. Gnome seems like a solid go-to since you get the advantage on mental saves vs. spells, but if you can wing it grung looks like it could be pretty cheesy for a grappling build... You've got advantage on Athletics checks to keep them grappled, they've (possibly) got disadvantage on whatever check they're trying to use to get out. Then you can shank them with bonus (save vs.) poison damage, because playable grungs are well-designed like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 07, 2021, 08:56:05 am

/me adds witchy stuff to his planned wildfire druid stuff

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 07, 2021, 12:28:17 pm

Adventure idea: You are trapped on an airship in the elemental plane of snakes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 07, 2021, 02:42:10 pm

Quote from: scriver on February 07, 2021, 08:56:05 am

/me adds witchy stuff to his planned wildfire druid stuff

Could also go pyromancy & grab polymorph. Same feel as druid but with less encumbrance from fire resistance

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on February 07, 2021, 02:46:32 pm

For the love of god do not land the fucking airship this is not a drill

Just kidding, I have the Ring of Snake Friendship so it's fine.

An NPC wild shaped into a killer whale after being swallowed by a giant shark in my last session. Things got...messy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 07, 2021, 02:49:49 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on February 07, 2021, 02:42:10 pm

Quote from: scriver on February 07, 2021, 08:56:05 am

/me adds witchy stuff to his planned wildfire druid stuff

Could also go pyromancy & grab polymorph. Same feel as druid but with less encumbrance from fire resistance

Not enough spirits!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 07, 2021, 05:25:58 pm

So my party and I planned very well to investigate a mansion full of zombies Resident Evil style that had a huge poetic beholder in it. Had some banterous poetry with it Romeo and Juliet style (throwing the poems in through the window attached to a brick). At a barricade, my priest centaur held the line with the heavily armoured warlock as both of us were unstealthy as fuck and would certainly alert the zombies. The paladin and wizard stealthed ahead to investigate. The warlock decided to break ranks and inevitably disturbed all the zombies. This resulted in a fight with three zombie hordes and the beholder, which quickly turns into a dire battle as the paladin is depressed, lost all his buffs from antimagic cone, the wizard is mobbed by zombies, the warlock is being ignored by his patron. In order to save the paladin I knock over the zombie horde, go ethereal, meet the warlock's patron who decides to help by crashing the roof on the beholder, do a heroic charge on the beholder and get disintegrated next turn in one shot. After that, the warlock remembers the plan to throw flour in the beholder's eye & the paladin remembers smite.
Pleasingly the whole party was so distraught that they tried to collect the dust midbattle and started excellent RP over whose fault it was

10/10 last words were "it's time to rock the roof"

*EDIT
RPd "going home" whilst in the afterlife. Met some dude who gave me centaur new shoes after I did a whole wayfaring stranger bit. Afterlife aint so bad

*EDITx2
So now, what should my next char be I wonder. The party's chilling in an area full of cultists and dead people, so there's only a three viable options.
1. Friendly NPC pyromancer. Generally don't want to take over this NPC because they already have established relationship and personality with one of the party member's backstories
2. Some cultist, which the DM vetoed because they would have to give deepeest lore about the mystery we are yet to fully uncover
3. A dead person. I've long got on my "to do list" of stupid char concepts a bitchy banshee named Brittineã, which cannot leave a 5 mile radius of where they died. Normally that'd be a static location, but if they were buried alive, then I can have some next level Django memes where the party drags a coffin around to keep the radius moving

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 08, 2021, 06:33:27 am

...Would centaur wear horse shoes or normal shoes? Would they consider horse shoes denigrating?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 08, 2021, 07:00:33 am

A horse shoe protects the hoof from damage, wear and pain, just as a human shoe does, so I don't think they'd consider the idea in general denigrating. I'd imagine they wouldn't be attached with nails, though, and the design may be different as you don't have to worry about an unintelligent animal trying to remove it by itself. Perhaps there would be fashionable centaur shoe designs? I don't think a centaur would wear human shoes (if that's what you mean by 'normal') but I can definitely imagine someone making a set of centaur shoes that looks like human sneakers for vanity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 08, 2021, 08:22:05 am

Normal, in this case, to my mind means made from leather and enveloping the foot (I mean I know horses foots begin up on the leg, so not the anatomical foot, the purpose-tomical foot, the part we walk and stand on).

Leaher slippers for everyday and iron shoes for war?

SOLDIERS! ARM YOURSELF! GRAB YOUR SPEARS! NAIL ON YOUR WAR SHOES!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 08, 2021, 08:37:28 am

"Let me just go slip into something a little more... comfortable..."

...*CLANG*

*CLANG*

*CLANG*

*CLANG*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 08, 2021, 08:41:55 am

Quote from: scriver on February 08, 2021, 06:33:27 am

...Would centaur wear horse shoes or normal shoes? Would they consider horse shoes denigrating?

Probably horseshoes, unless they're willing to go through the hassle of buckling shoes on and off every day. Don't think it'd be denigrating, any more than most human cultures that developed bodymod jewelry or nail adornments. It would probably elevate the status of farriers in society though, as skilled farriers would have demand from much higher paying and much more demanding clients than the usual horse. Like IcyTea says they'd probably not use nails, especially since hoof sandals & boots predate nailed horseshoes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipposandal). I could definitely see a disparity in the cultural acceptance of horseshoes amongst centaurs that travel between civilisations (high road travel, access to farriers, probably use horseshoes with nails as a prestige symbol), centaurs that roam the wilderness (no shoes at all, views them with disdain) and those in between (horse boots, no strong feelings either way).

Quote from: Kagus on February 08, 2021, 08:37:28 am

"Let me just go slip into something a little more... comfortable..."

...*CLANG*

*CLANG*

*CLANG*

*CLANG*

Time to infiltrate the mansion sneaky like

*TING* *TING* *TING* *TING*

...What?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 08, 2021, 09:37:09 am

loooool hipposandal

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 08, 2021, 10:12:36 am

My satyr character originally went shoeless (particularly no *iron* shoes) due to being fey and all.  Even if it's not cold iron, the concept remained disgusting.

He did eventually have some looted magical boots custom-fit at great expense, though that was late in his run.  I suppose they were buckled.  Hm... can a satyr easily reach their hooves?  Easier than a centaur I'm sure, and of course he only required two.

Still, I wonder if he ever had a proper hoof cleaning.  Horses love it and it looks like it would feel *incredible* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgjmISsxsMI

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 08, 2021, 10:48:25 am

Wouldn't satyrs have cloves, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 08, 2021, 10:56:08 am

Quote from: scriver on February 08, 2021, 10:48:25 am

Wouldn't satyrs have cloves, though?

Not if you nail them in place with a horseshoe.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 08, 2021, 12:21:31 pm

On second thought there's probably nothing stopping one from making shoes for cloves. " You can't put shoes on cloves, only hooves" is probably not the smartest assumption I've made

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 08, 2021, 12:52:18 pm

I didn't even know anyone called cloven hooves "cloves". Where I'm from they're just a kind of hooves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 08, 2021, 01:12:03 pm

Would a satyr even need shoes?  Like I've never seen somebody shoe a goat, or even a cow.  Is a humanoid who's not carrying people or dragging heavy loads actually going to need shoes?

Centaurs would, but I figure yeah, they'd use hipposandals or some fantasy equivalent rather than something nailed on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 08, 2021, 01:21:41 pm

That's true, goats seem to get by just fine shoeless in very rough, rocky terrain. A satyr is focusing the weight on two cloves though, particularly carrying equipment (mine had little but still). That's why my reasoning was that a forest fey wouldn't require shoes, and required no explanation.

Wearing the magic boots was the real stretch, but that's why he had to pay for modifications!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 08, 2021, 02:01:55 pm

I mean wild horses also range across hard rocky soil without problems.  They evolved for sparse arid plains.  I'm changing my stance from the previous post on centaurs, actually.  Horses need shoes because they evolved for specific climates and stresses and domestication presents them with completely different challenges their hooves aren't adapted to handle.  Centaurs evolved or were created as centaurs, so presumably their hooves are adapted for the kinds of stresses they experience, and thus they wouldn't need horseshoes unless you really like the idea and decide that your setting's god created them with horse-adapted hooves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 08, 2021, 07:20:31 pm

Was just thinking about potential Eldritch Adept cheese again (mostly in the sense of how much fun an assassin with Many Faces could be... Agent 47 mode!), when I got a bit sidetracked and ended up poking something else instead.

Namely, Bugbear Arcane Trickster. If you pick up a feat at level 4, you can take Fighting Initiate and grab your 10' blindsight for the sake of "seeing" through that fog cloud (and, much later, darkness) you're throwing down. Bugbear lets you rock an extra 5' reach when making attacks on your turn, so you can stab right out of the fogbank at the edge of your blindsight and boop someone who most likely can't see/notice you yet and doesn't even need to be disengaged from so you can hide/stab/do something else with your bonus action instead if you like.


Actually, come to think of it, let's revisit our face-shifting assassin for a moment...

Variant human (or I guess Tasha's custom lineage thingy, but I haven't read up on that) Genielock 1/Assassin 3. Assassin 3 is as lovely as it ever is, advantage on any creature that hasn't taken a turn in combat yet (so even if you don't get advantage from surprising someone by stabbing them in the guise of their friend, you still get advantage and therefore sneak attack since they haven't taken a "turn in combat"... The RAW here is a bit odd, frankly), and every hit on a surprised enemy counts as a crit. Should be reasonable to argue that taking someone else's face and poking from within the ranks could count as "surprising" enough for the purposes of the condition.

Genielock 1, among other things we'll discuss later, gives you some really nice (and scaling!) bang for your buck with just a 1-level dip. Once per turn deal Proficiency Bonus worth of damage on an attack (just in case we weren't already doing a stupid amount on that first stab, or if you get stuck in a more drawn-out fight), and you get an absolutely priceless escape route by way of the genie's vessel, which you can stay inside for a number of hours equal to twice your PB. As if that weren't enough, you can still hear the area around where the object is lying in the real world while you're inside.

Both of these things scale with PB and not Warlock level, something that makes this a really potent dip. And the utility value of hiding in a tiny, seemingly mundane item, for an infiltration expert assassin is simply incredible. The fact that you're extra deadly when hitting stuff is just bonus.


Now comes the choice between Variant Human Genielock 1 and taking Eldritch Adept to get this combo online at PC level 4, or if you want to take Genielock 2 in order to get an extra invocation, spell slot, and free up race selection while pushing the combo wombo-ness out to level 5 (and reducing sneak attack progression by 1 level).

Personally, I think it comes down to level range... If you're lucky to get level 4, obviously go with the fast-and-dirty version. If you've got more levels to play with, I feel like the extra spell slot and invocation can add some great utility to this monster. Heck, if you decide to opt for a Marid patron, you'll even get Fog Cloud to cast with those slots!


So now we've got an incredibly evasive death-dealing agent who can:

• Disguise themselves as another person at will
• Sneak attack crit for massive damage++
• Vanish into a tiny object for hours at a time (the ring is particularly broken, slip it onto the finger of a dead guard and hop inside!)
• Use a short-rest spell slots on things like Fog Cloud, Hex or Protection vs. Evil
• Choose not to stress about CHA, or pump it for all manner of cross-class usefulness
• Boost their melee attacks even more with Booming Blade if they like
• (Genielock 2) Another invocation for things like Devil Sight, Misty Images, Armor of Shadows, all manner of nonsense

Not exactly the most optimal in a throw-down fight, but send them on an infiltration mission of death and chaos and they'll be completely in their element. Terrifyingly so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 08, 2021, 07:42:30 pm

There is a bit of a problem with playing an infiltration focused player in DnD though. At your best, you're probably doing things away from the rest of the party which they can either not interact with or interfere with by being big dumb barbarians, paladins, and evokers. At worst, you have nothing to do because the GM didn't anticipate what kind of character you'd be bringing and all the challenges have more to do with killing big dumb monsters in straight fights.

You could make it as an NPC, but that also has a problem in that your players won't see what your cool character build can do, because said character is being sneaky and staying out of their notice. :P


So it's pretty much not worth it unless you're playing an entire infiltration-themed campaign. Hmmmm.
A Hitman campaign would probably be fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 08, 2021, 08:49:19 pm

Yup, that is the issue... :P But for the times when splitting the party is actually viable and you need an agent to go mess things up while the rest of the gang handles something else, that's pretty nice!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 08, 2021, 09:06:38 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on February 08, 2021, 07:42:30 pm

A Hitman campaign would probably be fun.

"Oh god, the bard showed up dressed as a clown and he's armed with a fish"

Actually it's kind of a shame the secret agent genre of roleplaying games died so long ago with Top Secret.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 08, 2021, 09:18:01 pm

I have a feat which doubles my sneak attack damage using any weapon that contains fruit, such as a banana or blueberry muffin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 09, 2021, 02:56:49 am

"You silently creep up from behind and attack the eldritch tentacle horror with your banana! Double penetration sneak attack!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Mephisto on February 09, 2021, 12:25:53 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 08, 2021, 09:06:38 pm

Actually it's kind of a shame the secret agent genre of roleplaying games died so long ago with Top Secret.

Hey now, Classified and White Lies are both seemingly well-regarded (though they're 5-6 years old at this point).

There's also the obligatory GURPS.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 10, 2021, 05:11:02 am

So far in this campaign of my m8s, I've played a sea-monster hunter (on a land based campaign) who was real salt of the earth with a slight undercurrent of menacing (Moby Dick themed character), who was infamous for scrawling everywhere "Ichabod was here." Followed up by ultra-wholesome front-line banner carrier (to offset the moral ambiguity of the other party chars) / #1 cheerleader of the Earth god Nolyth: Cayetan Carota, the Fortunate Centaur, who stacked endless rerolls and nevertheless was retconned from existence by a beholder's disintegration ray. Really buggered that one up!

Now that the other party chars have moved from moral ambiguity towards moral goodness, I decided to roll up an actual villain character. One of the player characters is a human Paladin that is the reincarnation of an ancient human Paladin. It started off as a stupid joke idea, and after two years I realised with grim certainty that his character - Dr. Klaus, was genuinely a Santa Claus parody. A year ago I even said his character seemed like a demented Krampus and he had to bite his tongue on just how accurate that call was.

Anyways, Krampus here had a fun little gimmick where any time he saw an Elf there was a small chance he'd roll to attack them. This happened once, and never again, but we kept getting little snippets of deepest Klaus lore here and there over the two years. We were all convinced that Klaus was a little demon Krampus but eventually between myself, the player and the DM, we all had accrued a whole bunch of lore about Klaus which turned him from a joke character into a piece of a wider epic fantasy puzzle. Amusingly, all three of us don't know what the others know and won't spoil it out of character, which leads to a real prisoner's dilemma where between the three of us the full story exists but no one person has it. The gist I know is that Klaus fought an ancient war against the snow elves, which ended in the complete destruction of the snow elves owing to the general dickery of the elven king and the general ruthlessness of the human-dwarven alliance. Klaus also tried to save the elves, so it gets complicated.

Given that the party is in an isolated tundra town full of only undead and cultists, any new character I'd have to introduce would be from one of those two camps. Cultists were vetoed by DM, so it was undead! And the DM and I both discussed the idea of making an undead character old enough to know this Klaus in his previous life. Whilst working it out with the other players, I ended up taking what was a joke character and entered into a strange mood. Perhaps the effort of having to continuously add ã with tildes activated some Tolkein brain but my joke of a "Britney the Banshee" char ended up evolving into serious char

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/xrRjUSF.png)

Brittineã here being pronounced the same as Brittinor. I had to consult with all of my players beforehand in order to introduce such a wonky character; the Paladin Klaus is going to have to carry Brittineã's coffin around if they are to ever leave the mansion (he agreed, guilty that he helped exterminate her entire race of snow elves in a past life). The half-elf player and I came up with an idea that would help him deflect in-character blame for getting the party's most beloved char killed and would allow my char to look beyond their disgust at half-elves. The wizard player Drack would likely horrify Brittineã as back in her time human wizards were rare and the magic system wizards are using with spell slots and words did not exist in her time, looking like vulgar magic - but these differences could no doubt be smoothed over if Brittineã showed the wizard where the mansion wine cellar was.

All in all, got everything set up for a fun character debut. Went all out on the theme too; everything revolves around hellish hounds, loud screeching, spookiness or madness. I think subconsciously I'm giving up on stealth and subtlety to fit in with the way the party usually does things (my first char was stealthy and climby, my second was loud and four hooved legs do not a climber make, this char fights by making loud screams heard in a 300ft radius). Really leaning on the banshee/revenant/ghostly huntsman theme to get that good aesthetic.

Using playable ethereal banshee was pretty weird balance wise, so I suggested to my DM that though she was ethereal, she can do what her cognitive dissonance will allow. E.g. weapons will pass through her, but she believes weapons will harm her which damages her hold on reality, to explain why she's taking damage from normal weapons despite being ethereal. She could pass through walls or locked boxes, but doesn't, because she doesn't think she's a ghost. Also gave her a 95% carry capacity reduction just to hammer in the whole "spooky polterghost" vibe. So despite being a skilled archer, lockpicker or hunter, I don't think she's strong enough to carry most weapons or kits anymore unless she grabs a mage hand or something.

I'm also bloody terrible because I always advise my new players to keep backgrounds simple, but then you just get into a strange mood and accidentally write an epic as a backstory

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/rPU4aq2.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 10, 2021, 05:52:43 pm

Hey, who wants some Gun Crossbow Kata?

Variant Human Battlemaster 4

Archery fighting style

Trip Attack maneuver

Crossbow expert feat

Sharpshooter feat


Despite the name, Trip Attack says that it's used on a "weapon attack" rather than specifically a melee weapon attack, unlike some of the other maneuvers. As such, forcing a strength save to not fall prone via a hand crossbow bolt is perfectly fine, RAW.

So what you do is walk up to someone, pop them with your xbow and use Trip Attack, they fall down, and you can use your bonus action via XBE to execute them with Sharpshooter and advantage. Pa-pow. The +2 to ranged attack rolls from Archery helps make that first shot more likely to land so that they actually fall down, and if you have at least 16 DEX will completely balance out the -5 from doing a sharp shot (which is a roll you're taking with advantage anyways).

Should you feel so inclined, you can also use this with nets. The combination of XBE and SS means that you can actually use nets without disadvantage over their entire range, and so far as I can deduce this does count as a ranged weapon attack hit, meaning it can both be used to trip an opponent and restrain them (setting speed to 0 and thereby preventing them from standing back up until they've removed the net) and can even apply the sharpshooter damage bonus (and sneak attack dice, for that matter... It's a really sharp net!).

Heck, you don't even need to walk up to them first... Just fire a shot and see if they fall down or not. If not, keep your distance. If they do go down, run up and give 'em a septum piercing. At 5th level you get your extra attack and thus the opportunity to fill them full of even more holes. In an optimal scenario, you can knock someone over with the first attack, and then with the help of Action Surge plug a full 4 shots at advantage into them while standing over their pincushioned remains.

Not that anything's going to have that much HP mind you, but it's a thought!



Alternatively, I was thinking how you could take a VHuman Genielock at level 4 and do some real stupidity with Fighting Initiate: Dueling and Charger. Since pact weapon can be pretty much whatever (melee) weapon you want there are a lot of choices here, but I figure whip is probably a solid bet since you can pump DEX for defense and it gives you that extra 5' reach making it easier to just zip away if you end up not actually hitting anything and would like to leave.

The combination of Dueling + Charger + Genielock means that on a successful hit with a whip you're dealing 1d4+DEX... +9. Without any malus to the attack roll (or extra attacks, or the bigger dice of a heavy weapon... But still!). Nab Improved Pact Weapon and you're rocking an additional +1 to Attack and Damage without even having to find loot.

And if things go sour on that attack roll, you're already dashing so you've probably still got enough movespeed to bravely run away.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 11, 2021, 04:50:02 am

that's gud cheese

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 11, 2021, 04:52:38 am

While searching for a ninja vampire renegade spy down at the city docks, our group of intrepid guardsmen interrupted a vessel unloading an illegal cargo shipment at the end of last session.

Seeing the city guard arrive, the miscreants unloading the ship fled the scene, dropping one of the giant crates, which broke open and gave forth a mighty roar from within!

Any suggestions from the community what's inside the crate?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on February 11, 2021, 06:27:35 am

Dire Badger?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 11, 2021, 06:35:46 am

Quote from: Jimmy on February 11, 2021, 04:52:38 am

Any suggestions from the community what's inside the crate?

Well you could go with a cockatrice for the value of "It's a cock in a box!", but that's neither very large nor particularly appropriate for city guardsmen (unless they're supposed to be especially disposable).

What sort of CR are you looking for? You could potentially do a chromatic dragon wyrmling of some sort, whites seem appropriate for their weaker and more bestial nature. Just tone it down a bit by doing things like removing flight and toning down the breath weapon a bit, since it'll probably have been weakened by starvation and the cramped conditions of the crate for however long it's been in there. Breath weapon could potentially just be a relatively mild chill, with CON save versus having disadvantage on attacks as the biting cold makes movement difficult?

A white dragon wyrmling definitely sounds like the kind of thing a crazy crime lord would try to have captured and smuggled in for a personal menagerie. Although it doesn't make a great deal of sense if there are several of them in the other boxes, that strikes me as going a bit overboard...


Worgs? Uncommon thing for humans to have lying around, someone could be attempting to train/deal with them to get an assassination squad that looks like wild animal or goblin attacks.


EDIT: Wait, you're not running 5e, are you... Uhhh, nevermind what I said about disadvantage then :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 11, 2021, 07:46:22 am

It's a dire hippo! Or it's something cute and small which makes a lot of noice.

@Kagus - does that crossbow kata keso take into account that you get disadvantage on ranged attacks once your target is tripped?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 11, 2021, 07:59:29 am

The exact rule for prone is that attackers get advantage if they're within 5 feet and disadvantage if they're further away.
So if you try to shoot someone with a bow while standing over them you would get advantage because you're within 5 feet, which cancels out with disadvantage from attacking with a ranged weapon while an opponent is within 5 feet.
Crossbow master would negate the latter penalty, leaving us with advantage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 11, 2021, 08:21:07 am

Druid lvl 1: cantrip: infestation: BEES
Druid 3: summon BEEast
Druid 4: Wildshape into GIANT BEE
Druid 5: Conjure aniBEES
Druid 6: Summon fey BEES
Druid 7: GIANT INSECT BEE
Druid 9: INSECT PLAGUE (of) BEES
Ranger 3: Swarm of BEE Keeper

New char idea
The man in black and yellow

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 11, 2021, 09:36:13 am

I'm on a quest to seek the Queen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 11, 2021, 09:47:12 am

GOODBERRYHONEY

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 11, 2021, 10:28:59 am

(https://i.imgur.com/KEPpTwF.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 12, 2021, 11:19:06 am

Pleasantly realised going full hunter-banshee sorcerer gimmick was surprisingly effective for a unique melee full-caster. Never really used charms and frightens, always thought they were pretty ineffective, but this worked great wonders for roleplay potential and crowd control:

1. First targeted the enemy necromanshah, running towards them and summoning the evil doggy of omen. Use dissonant whispers to force him to run away from all of his guards, also triggering AOO from banshee & her best friend doggo, the latter also getting advantage from pack tactics. Necromancer succeeded their STR test to avoid getting knocked prone.
2. Next do the same, this time summoning a second doggo and casting cause fear. Necromancer gets disadvantage because next to two evil doggos. Disengages & runs away whilst calling for help. Gets knocked prone by doggos, can't run away effectively, now triggering advantage from everyone.
3. Very very dead necromancer, all whilst maintaining the theme of an evil fey hunter
4. scream to celebrate, this silence offends slaanesh

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2021, 07:02:49 am

Quote from: Telekinetic Feat

• You learn the Mage Hand cantrip. You can cast it without verbal or somatic components, and you can make the spectral hand invisible. If you already know this spell, its range increases by 30 feet when you cast it. Its spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.

Quote from: Mage Hand Cantrip

Conjuration cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute

A spectral, floating hand appears at a point you choose within range. The hand lasts for the duration or until you dismiss it as an action. The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 30 feet away from you or if you cast this spell again.

RAW, this means that the Telekinetic feat allows you to cast the spell at a range where it immediately fizzles; accomplishing absolutely nothing. RAI is probably supposed to allow the hand to actually sustain and operate at the 30-60' range.


As an aside, I think it's a little funny that a Phantom with Green-Flame Blade (via feat or Elf or whatever) can sneak attack someone with low AC, and then damage someone next to them for Spellmod+(sneak attack/2) damage with no save or attack roll. If bounded accuracy weren't a thing, that might even be useful.

Could be funny designing a boss fight around something that effectively couldn't be hit or fail saves, so you have to use auto-hit effects like that to bypass the defenses. Or just go Scourge Archon Stormbarian and stand next to them while dodging every turn, and let your doubled aura of ouchieness whittle them down.

Fun fact; that combo can spend every action during a rage just dodging and still maintain the rage, provided the racial ability is active. Very angry dodging.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 13, 2021, 07:25:01 am

I can't believe the silly Americans named a subclass "Phantom". I am never not going to think of the Phantom when I see it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 13, 2021, 07:29:09 am

Quote from: scriver on February 13, 2021, 07:25:01 am

I can't believe the silly Americans named a subclass "Phantom". I am never not going to think of the Phantom when I see it.

Enchanted Ring of Punching +1 (finesse, light)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on February 13, 2021, 09:54:31 am

If it was in Pathfinder, it could be a Ring of Arcane Mark. In 5e it doesn't work as well, since that effect is moved to Prestidigitation and only has a duration of 1 hour, rather than permanent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 14, 2021, 07:42:21 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 27, 2020, 02:40:06 pm

Oh man, one of my friends first-time DM'd. They intentionally told us all different versions of what the campaign was going to be, with the end result being they broke a cardinal rule of DMing; make sure you're running the same campaign as your players.

Needless to say I wasn't very amused when my wholesome non-combat character, made for a wholesome social campaign - who had not killed a single thing in three campaigns, was pitted against the God of Pestilence.

Lmao

So I gave a bloody lieutenant's debriefing on how much of a clusterfuck that was and he took those lessons to heart. Fast forward to 2021 when I get invited to play an NPC in a 1to1 campaign he was doing with another of our mutual friends. Spend about an hour doing a South-Wharf North-Wharf gang feud that saw our friend's gentlemanly character embroiled in Jimmy's yardy boy gang business. After a great deal of blustering that our friend was capable of summoning a sharknado, which was a credible enough threat given the circumstances, Jimmy, the wizard-turned-gangster and their rival boss Sampson agree to meet at a fountain. Negotiations go smoothly with both Sampson and Jimmy finding common ground for working together to dominate the "tax free business" when we're attacked by a god with 500 HP that hits for 250 damage. Sampson and Jimmy are both lvl 5 fighters, the player char was lvl 8 warlock and we were joined by another lvl 8 NPC bard played by a friend who joined later that evening.
It took 2 hours to kill this thing with copious cheesing, but it wasn't challenging or interesting so much as it was just Mugabe levels of number inflation.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/tWHmdrz.png)

We spent a good hour and a half just roasting how he managed to get even worse, like he managed to distill the worst elements of all DND into DND Vodka. It reached a headway where the DM had a shocking revelation when he said it was the warlock player's fault for not choosing the powerful choices before him, and I told him "Do you hear what you've become? You're criticizing him for not min-maxing a wizard?" And he replied "Oh my god what have I become."
The bard player tried to be diplomatic but after 30 minutes of roasting joined in too until everyone was crying and making GOKU POWERING UP SCREAMS AHHHHHHHHHHHH I'M NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO DEFEAT THE ENEMY I HAVE TO POWER UP AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

So yeah, old habits die hard. Apparently in my absence these bad habits have full on become his style. It got to a level of satire which shouldn't even be possible when I compared his setting to Blacksun Deathcrawl, a gaming system which is only theoretically playable and is an engine of depsair meant to simulate depression. Yet every time I brought up something like "he'll probably have you fight an abstract concept of hopelessness that forces you to kill every NPC you grew attached to" or "you'll fight a god backwards through time across a hell dimension and be forced to kill its innocent origin point in order to maintain causality" the Warlock player said he'd alreay done those. I was that specific, and he'd already been forced to play that. The DM cackled like an evil hag every time I brought up some impossibly grimdark exercise in cock and ball torture and the warlock player said "yep did that last sesh." It got to a point where I was reading out how chars in BSDC are unable to truly die until they give up hope and Warlock player was all "yeah my char can't die for good unless they get succ'd into hell, death is no escape," and I had to yell grimBINGO

Warlock player was laffin like nuts, left the discord but had to come back to laff some more. Wondering how his char meant for a low level city campaign about mid level crime and respect was supposed to deal with the Mugabe inflation thousand armed Shakti world devouring gods coming after him, each one more powerful than the last.

A year ago I told him make sure you know what campaign you're running. If your players and you have agreed that they're running a campaign about opening a muffin shop in detroit don't drop vengeful Kali on them

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 14, 2021, 08:03:49 am

I'm pretty sure you could defeat Kali with a good muffin

Never underrestimate the power of muffins

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 14, 2021, 08:21:14 am

*throws blueberry muffin at kali's head*
*kali gets knocked out*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 14, 2021, 08:33:54 am

Kali is 50% blueberry muffin she is immune

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 14, 2021, 08:39:05 am

Only to Blueberry Muffin damage! Thrown muffins still deal Bludgeoning damage

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 14, 2021, 08:41:12 am

Let's see... They've got blueberry muffins...lemon poppyseed... Oh, I'll take the vorpal muffin.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: LordPorkins on February 14, 2021, 04:55:31 pm

Quote from: delphonso on February 14, 2021, 08:41:12 am

the vorpal muffin.

That'd be a great name for one of those Board Game Cafes

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 14, 2021, 05:57:25 pm

I'll take a baker's 20 of them!

And gosh LW, what a wild GM!  I'm glad y'all had some good laughs about it.  That discord chat, LOL!

I'm sure there are RPGs where you can play saiyan-like characters...  Our Mutants and Masterminds game was like that in a lot of ways.  And like a saiyan-game, the idea of balance seemed to go straight out the dang window, but we still had fun with its ridiculousness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 14, 2021, 06:49:46 pm

Quote from: Rolan7 on February 14, 2021, 05:57:25 pm

I'm sure there are RPGs where you can play saiyan-like characters...

Exalted?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on February 15, 2021, 02:56:34 am

The next time I have one of my bard-like players die and get resurrected, I'm gonna RP their deity speaking to their soul beforehand.

God: Hey, welcome to the afterlife! Great job on doing all the stuff you were supposed to do.

God: So, by the way, did you, y'know, lay with all the women down there? Nudge, nudge, wink wink?

God: What?! You didn't? Me-dammit, why not?

God: You were supposed to be my gift to them!

God: Alright, I'm sending you back, but this is their last chance or I'm sending a plague or a flood or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 15, 2021, 04:30:19 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on February 14, 2021, 07:42:21 am

Wondering how his char meant for a low level city campaign about mid level crime and respect was supposed to deal with the Mugabe inflation thousand armed Shakti world devouring gods coming after him, each one more powerful than the last.

Eldritch Blast

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 15, 2021, 10:56:31 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 15, 2021, 04:30:19 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on February 14, 2021, 07:42:21 am

Wondering how his char meant for a low level city campaign about mid level crime and respect was supposed to deal with the Mugabe inflation thousand armed Shakti world devouring gods coming after him, each one more powerful than the last.

Eldritch Blast

"We're gonna need a bigger blast"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on February 15, 2021, 11:03:16 am

Just apply the Deicidal Blast invocation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 15, 2021, 11:10:33 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on February 15, 2021, 10:56:31 am

Quote from: Kagus on February 15, 2021, 04:30:19 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on February 14, 2021, 07:42:21 am

Wondering how his char meant for a low level city campaign about mid level crime and respect was supposed to deal with the Mugabe inflation thousand armed Shakti world devouring gods coming after him, each one more powerful than the last.

Eldritch Blast

"We're gonna need a bigger blast"

Wrong reference, I know, but I just imagined a Ghostbusters team of warlocks all dedicated to the same patron who sends them on missions to eradicate spooky hauntings.

"Don't cross the blasts!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on February 15, 2021, 12:10:04 pm

Had a chat with my brother earlier about an idea for a relatively young mixed goblinoid nation that practices an elective monarchy but is torn between two candidates because of tensions involving a recent war, with the areas that were hit hard by it favouring one candidate who's unorthodox but was important to the war and who they think will be a good ruler if hostilities start again, and the other areas favouring a traditionalist candidate who they think would be better for reconstruction and delaying the return of hostilities.

On top of this would be the social tensions between the fledgling landed noble classes of the kingdom, the unlanded wealthy and the peasantry, racial tensions between goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins and worgs, religious tensions over which goblin deities should be openly worshipped and some people, primarily worgs, rebelling against the shift to an agrarian society from the previous hunter-gatherer-raider model.

Meanwhile bandits, some ex-soldiers turned pillagers, some foreign scouts, some just opportunistic criminals or desperate peasants have begun picking away at the areas already weakened by war, foreign nations engage in trade embargoes and diplomatic efforts to direct things in their favoured direction, missionaries seek to convert the goblinoids away from their historic deities.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 15, 2021, 03:20:19 pm

The Goblin-Lithuania Commonwealth will reign supreme

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 15, 2021, 03:36:26 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on February 15, 2021, 03:20:19 pm

The Goblin-Lithuania Commonwealth will reign supreme

something something local noble instead

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 15, 2021, 05:39:36 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 15, 2021, 03:36:26 pm

something something local noble instead

We choose a Hob-Jagobllion instead

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 22, 2021, 07:01:07 am

It's struck me that an Alchemist 3/Warlock 2 would have two short-rest spell slots available for making experimental elixirs.

Considering the variety of effects available, having a few spare Boldness/Flight/Transformation potions on hand for the party to use when needed seems pretty dang snazzy to me. Particularly with Boldness basically being a silent, no-concentration, one-person Bless-in-a-bottle, the utility seems pretty sweet.

Of course, this does mean having to grab at least 13 CHA on top of whatever other stats you want, but it also grants you whatever value picks you might want from the level 1 patron bonuses and eldritch invocations.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 01, 2021, 07:13:03 am

So our campaign had another session last night, and right beforehand we confirmed that another one of the players is stepping out of the group. That brings us down to three players. These are The Bard (the stereotype, not the Shakespeare), an arcane trickster rogue who doesn't really follow the thread very well but who is READY to DO THE THING (whatever "the thing" may or may not be), and myself.

Technical difficulties aside, with people suddenly no longer getting audio from the call and Skype spontaneously deciding to log me out for no reason, it was an interesting session. The Bard was in full form, berating us for not coordinating our attacks better because he was going to use Dissonant Whispers and we had used other debilitating spells first which didn't really synergize with his casting Dissonant Whispers. Then when he got downed, he asked me (the Wizard) if I had Healing Word prepared. I said no. He then commented "stupid wizards" and lamented how he was the only one with Healing Word and therefore the *one* character who should not be allowed to get downed during a fight.

The best part for me, though, was when a friendly NPC tried attacking the monster and then running out of reach; and The Bard grumpily told the DM that he wasn't using the NPC optimally because they should've stayed put to get an opportunity attack off. Had to silently giggle to myself on that one.


Also, more gimmicks... I just realized that taking Shadow Touched as a Warlock would let you cast Inflict Wounds using pact magic. Which is nifty. Especially if you've got a sprite/imp/quasit familiar around to apply it invisibly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2021, 06:01:00 pm

So one of my players is saying you can swap out racial feats for ANY feat. They're citing Tasha's where I know you can swap racial ABIs for any equal ABI (e.g. an elf could put their +2 racial DEX to +2 STR instead or something) or a proficiency for a proficiency (e.g. Dwarven proficency in warhammers swapped for proficiency in animal handling or sea vehicles). What they've done is swap Drow Weapon proficiency for Eldritch Adept.
Is this haram or halal? My gut says haram. I'm of the opinion that if your character needs some feat to RP better I'll give it to you for free; it's silly if your Halfling Chef doesn't know how to cook because it doesn't have an ABI yet. But this player in particular is a min-maxer whose mind is full of videogame meta and yet to learn how to RP. We have only just managed to get him to actually be able to answer who his character is rather than how many dice his character can roll and by Armok willing we will make an RPG player of him yet.

But I digress; surely this feat blending is ultraharam? Do I need to issue a fatwa or not?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 01, 2021, 06:03:50 pm

imagine playing dnd with feats

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2021, 06:06:18 pm

Imagine playing dnd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2021, 06:09:16 pm

Imagine

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on March 01, 2021, 06:19:14 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2021, 06:01:00 pm

So one of my players is saying you can swap out racial feats for ANY feat. They're citing Tasha's where I know you can swap racial ABIs for any equal ABI (e.g. an elf could put their +2 racial DEX to +2 STR instead or something) or a proficiency for a proficiency (e.g. Dwarven proficency in warhammers swapped for proficiency in animal handling or sea vehicles). What they've done is swap Drow Weapon proficiency for Eldritch Adept.
Is this haram or halal? My gut says haram. I'm of the opinion that if your character needs some feat to RP better I'll give it to you for free; it's silly if your Halfling Chef doesn't know how to cook because it doesn't have an ABI yet. But this player in particular is a min-maxer whose mind is full of videogame meta and yet to learn how to RP. We have only just managed to get him to actually be able to answer who his character is rather than how many dice his character can roll and by Armok willing we will make an RPG player of him yet.

But I digress; surely this feat blending is ultraharam? Do I need to issue a fatwa or not?

That's 100% not how it works in Tasha's yeah. Going by Tasha's they can swap out Drow Weapon Proficiency for proficiency in different weapons or tools.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 01, 2021, 06:32:14 pm

Yeah I definitely say forboten. Proficiency for proficiency at least keeps on the same level, kinda sorta. Proficiency for any feat is ridiculous.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 04, 2021, 06:35:08 am

Yeah, that... No. Custom Lineage is one thing, swapping a proficiency for a proficiency is another thing, swapping an ASI for another equivalent ASI is also a thing, but swapping a proficiency for an ASI or a friggin' whole-ass feat is something entirely different and a frankly impressive leap of munchkinry.


In other news, the Grappling Strike battle maneuver specifies "melee attack", not "melee weapon attack" as its condition for usage, meaning that shoving a creature counts!

...unfortunately, the condition is that you have to hit with the melee attack, and since shoves don't involve an attack roll, it cannot technically "hit". So it doesn't count.


But this brings me to another, somewhat odd interaction/question. If you have that maneuver, a familiar, and a touch attack spell... When routing a spell through a familiar, is it *you* hitting with the attack, or is it the *familiar* hitting with the attack?

Quote

Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll.

From the wording of "you cast [the spell]", it would make sense that all related rolls and conditions/effects would relate to you, but you're just casting it from the familiar's space.

But "your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell", followed by the clarification/qualification of "If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll" makes it seem as though it's the familiar who is making the attack, just with your attack modifier. Just like if you'd handed some pebbles from Magic Stone to someone else. They're making the attack, but they're using your ability modifiers for it.

So is the familiar making the attack, or are you making the attack from the familiar's space? If you're making the attack from the familiar's space, then you could technically cast Shocking Grasp and attack through the familiar's space, and then qualify for making a bonus action grapple on them via Grappling Strike (which admittedly would fail unless you're already within reach of the target that the familiar's zapping, as the maneuver just directs you to the rules on grappling).


It's... An odd interaction. And probably not very useful unless you're for some reason not capable of making attacks, or your familiar has some bonus to its making attacks. Or you're using flanking rules.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 04, 2021, 02:07:51 pm

Since familiars are generally incapable of attacking, I'd lean on that and say that it's you who's making the attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 04, 2021, 03:26:19 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on March 04, 2021, 02:07:51 pm

Since familiars are generally incapable of attacking, I'd lean on that and say that it's you who's making the attack.

But that's even worse! Then you can cast touch spells (such as Inflict Wounds) through an invisible imp/quasit and they won't break invisibility! Sure, unless you are also hidden from the target then you won't get advantage (since only the familiar would benefit from its own invisibility), but since the familiar isn't making an attack it doesn't break their invis!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 04, 2021, 03:40:49 pm

Sounds like a convoluted way to avoid using Distant Spell metamagic. :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 04, 2021, 04:01:09 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on March 04, 2021, 03:40:49 pm

Sounds like a convoluted way to avoid using Distant Spell metamagic. :)

Just at more than three times the range and while potentially being in a completely different room from the target, and without using sorcery points (except for the room trick, in one variation). Yeah.


...actually, come to think of it, Distant Spell doesn't appear to place any additional targeting modifiers on the spell, it just increases the range to 30'. And the Touch-range spells I looked at didn't actually have any wording about being able to see the target. So, by that metric, you absolutely can just Distant Spell straight through a solid brick wall.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 17, 2021, 12:10:37 am

If somebody at my table said his quasit could use touch attacks without breaking invisibility cause technically he's making the attack, I would slap him so hard his birth certificate disappears.

I would say no to 90% of the RAW speculation in this thread on principle.  And that's assuming I was somehow persuaded to run D&D 5e again when honestly I'd rather not play at all than run another D&D game.

In other news, there's a D&D game coming out in June. (https://store.steampowered.com/app/623280/Dungeons__Dragons_Dark_Alliance/)  According to the description it's an action RPG set in "the world of dungeons and dragons," which isn't even english.  What is the world of dungeons and dragons? D&D is a set of rules for adding structure to improv roleplaying.  When you have an action RPG that doesn't use the D&D ruleset, what about it is D&D aside from the words on the box?  I'm just being a pedantic dick now, it's set in forgotten realms of course, and for all I know the game will turn out good.  It's just a thing that bugs me because I'm a pedantic dick.  I was the same way about the D&D movie.  It's just a generic fantasy movie with D&D on it.  This is just vermintide with D&D on it.  I dunno.  I'm elderly.

So this post isn't entirely negative, I really really really want to play Runequest but looking at it I have no idea how to actually run a game.  Like it doesn't feel suited to D&D style adventuring and there's this really well-established history and lore that you're smack in the middle of, feels like the PCs should be a part of that but difficult, how do you have your PCs take part in a war between demigods without being overshadowed.  Challenging.  Need to see if they've published any more adventures, there's a few adventures for older versions but they're really strange.

Glorantha though is just a top tier setting.  It blows every D&D setting out of the water, nothing compares.  Bronze-age setting, super high fantasy but not in the awful kitchen-sink style of D&D but very natural feeling, there's an entire book detailing the history of the world and all the myths which are super interesting, was created by a cultural anthropologist and IRL shaman so the cosmology and lore feels authentic in a way no other setting does. 

The trickster god learned the secret of death while traveling through hell, and went around showing it to people as a prank, bringing death into the world.  Orlanth, the chief god, punished him by cutting him into pieces, but he put himself back together.  As a result his priests can pull their body parts off and control them remotely, and if you pay them they'll teach you how to do it too.  Later he was making his severed dick chase a lady around when Orlanth pulled him into a quest, and he had to leave it behind.  He was attacked by a demon with vagina dentata but survived because he left his dick at home.

When the male gods left to fight the gods war the earth goddess was left alone and pregnant.  The troll god of death attacked her and struck her belly with the axe whose head is death, but when he pulled it free the head was gone.  Her unborn baby climbed out of the wound wielding death and went on a rampage, becoming the goddess of revenge.  She's also the goddess of alcohol cause she likes to drink when she's not beating the shit out of anyone who was mean to her mom.

It's all wonderful.  It is the best RPG setting bar none, and just from an RPG standpoint a world where every competent adult can do full-on wizard shit without the setting turning into gonzo "magic as technology" nonsense is really fun. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 17, 2021, 05:57:11 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 17, 2021, 12:10:37 am

If somebody at my table said his quasit could use touch attacks without breaking invisibility cause technically he's making the attack, I would slap him so hard his birth certificate disappears.

And I view that as needlessly hostile.

Again, this is a matter of trying to make sure we're all playing the same game. What's painfully obvious to you may not be that way for someone else. This includes whatever we presume the intentions behind the written rules are. Obviously, using Lucky to turn disadvantage into super-advantage isn't intended behavior. ...except that it specifically was intended by the developers.

So outright attacking someone for reading the rules and trying to interpret them, because clearly they're explicitly being malicious and are just trying to game the system instead of following the obvious norm, strikes me as kind of hostile and unconducive to creative play.

You could just say that "No, the reaction of delivering a spell ("delivery" not being detailed anywhere else in the book to my knowledge) also breaks invisibility(fiat)/counts as an attack(interpretation)". And that's fine (in addition to covering attack-less touch spells such as Cure Wounds). But aggressively punching someone down because they thought they'd found a useful interaction is just going to discourage people from trying to do anything outside of whatever railroad they think you've intended.

But if you're okay with that and your players are okay with that, then, well, it works for you. It wouldn't work for me. I'm the kind who casts Light (coloring it red) on a coconut and then uses Catapult to launch it into the air as a signal flare (if we don't have someone with a bow on hand).


Glorantha is the shit. I'll always just automatically associate it with KoDP rather than the RPG though, due to what I was exposed to first. "No, don't bang the pretty naked forest lady. Do not bang the pretty naked forest lady. ...You fucking fucks, I told you not to bang the pretty naked forest lady, now you've got thorny vines coming out of your earholes."

KoDP might actually be a good place to look for inspiration on RPG adventures, come to think of it.  Just look at the hero quests. Mortals learn the old myths and stories, and then enter the realm of the gods to reenact them. You're dealing with very powerful forces, but by adhering to the histories and methods of the gods you can prevail (with notable effect, both in the sense of personal growth and in the sense of political weight with the various tribes).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 17, 2021, 07:01:26 am

My actions seem extreme but it's important to realize I'm not a person, I'm a complicated rube goldberg machine made out of string and cardboard gears by a mad scientist for purpose of boiling water and then launching it at people.

Heroquesting is cool and it definitely has a place in an adventure, though the actual RPGs (there's two, runequest and a more rules-light storygame called heroquest) treat heroquesting a bit differently.  It's treated vaguely as to whether or not what you're doing is "real."  Like the story of orlanth freeing water from the dragon might be traveling into the Godtime, or it might just be guys in costumes fighting a giant puppet made out of leather and feathers and stuff.  I like to think it's a bit of both, with the power of the tribe's belief and fidelity of their reenactment blurring the boundaries between the real world and the godtime, with the extreme end being your orlanth finds himself actually battling the dragon.

I dunno if I could make a whole campaign out of heroquesting though, but it's certainly an angle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 17, 2021, 08:30:30 am

A real shaman or a fake ass new wave shaman though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 17, 2021, 09:33:00 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 17, 2021, 07:01:26 am

I dunno if I could make a whole campaign out of heroquesting though, but it's certainly an angle.

Nah, don't know if I'd go that far... But it is a useful tool and stepping stone for letting the characters play with the "big boys" in a sense, if you feel like that's a good path to take.

Could theoretically just have the players be part of a clan and progressing from minor misadventures around on the tula, to raids against neighboring clans, to more concerted war efforts against rival clans, to eventually taking part in working to unite the clans and the more far-reaching adventures that can open up.

Heck, if you're feeling spicy, have the party be nobles on the clan ring! Then they can be called upon to deal with situations befitting their specialties, to be important (and therefore sought out/targeted) members of clan life, and to give advice to the chief on weighty matters... While still allowing them some measure of free reign to pursue their own objectives.

Advising the chief also means that players can lean fully into whatever single-minded harebrained characters they're playing as, without it necessarily leading to utter and immediate catastrophe since there's still a bureaucratic link above them interpreting their input. The chief still makes the final decision, but they get to feel like they were included in the process.

Quote from: scriver on March 17, 2021, 08:30:30 am

A real shaman or a fake ass new wave shaman though

As ancestral enemy to Faralinthor and all that is corrupted by his salty influence, I would strike down his wet presence if this were the case!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 17, 2021, 09:36:09 am

Hehe you know what I mean

It's better this way though

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 17, 2021, 10:49:03 am

I think honestly I'd probably end up running an exalted game, which is kind of similar to the Glorantha RPG "historic moment" in that it's superpowered demigods doing crazy shit.

A three kingdoms type of scenario would be fun, probably set in An-Teng, which is a wealthy and apparently subservient satrapy with multiple ruling families and lots of secret royal plots to overthrow dragonblooded rule. 

One of the dragonblooded houses gets wind of the traitor plots and exterminates most of the rulership, the remainder break into factions controlling various small parts of the map.  While House X (probably the big mercantile house) is trying to burn them out one of the smaller houses makes their own play for control of the region, leading to an early flashpoint in the slow-rolling collapse of the empire.  The satrapy dissolves into a big multipolar clusterfuck of warring factions.  Lunars take advantage to start bringing down imperial rule on the outskirts, maybe a couple other weird factions, and then the players come in and get to play around in this sandbox, try to further destabilize imperial control or join with the lunars or carve our their own enlightened principality moving into a more strategic war campaign to control the entire area.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 17, 2021, 03:18:13 pm

Ok, so I'm trying to brainstorm a stupid Call of Cthulu/similar one-shot, even though I don't play that game.

Here's what I've got.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The players are investigating a cult (as you do) who are going to be summoning some type of Eldrich being. The players get on the same train.
The wheels of steel are turning, starting the trip from New York to San Fransisco.
Some of the other passengers begin to make increasingly cryptic comments to them like "we'll be there for you" and "Happiness is just around the corner".
If the PCs are still stuck, they are given an invitation with a time, car number, and the words "we like to party" written on it.
At the height of the party, one passenger after another starts going through the window of the train. Everybody's jumping.
The Venga Bus is coming, if they don't stop the ritual suicides.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 18, 2021, 02:33:22 pm

That doesn't really give us much to go on.  COC design principles aren't much different from D&D stuff, though the focus on mystery can be tough.  I'd do the same thing I do with D&D adventures, especially less combat-focused ones, and start with a timeline of what will happen if the players never show up, from whatever point their plot starts to its completion with whatever bad shit going down.  Once you've got that you can start to figure out what levers the players have to interact with the situation and what you need to flesh out in more detail.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on March 18, 2021, 05:29:47 pm

I think I want to try doing an Innsmouth-style scenario for my players to investigate in their Pathfinder game. Since the entire campaign is in a port city metropolis, I'll probably have it set in the surrounding suburbs outside the city walls.

I'll need to come up with art and NPC details though, since it'll be more investigation and less monster-slaying. I'll have to give COC a look-through to see what they've got available that I can adapt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 19, 2021, 04:35:36 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on March 18, 2021, 02:33:22 pm

That doesn't really give us much to go on.  COC design principles aren't much different from D&D stuff, though the focus on mystery can be tough.  I'd do the same thing I do with D&D adventures, especially less combat-focused ones, and start with a timeline of what will happen if the players never show up, from whatever point their plot starts to its completion with whatever bad shit going down.  Once you've got that you can start to figure out what levers the players have to interact with the situation and what you need to flesh out in more detail.

We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party
We like, we like to party
We like to party...


And if we're talking settings, I've had an idea for a short campaign/sideline where the party gets wrapped up in a good ol' classic murder mystery.

Big estate house, fancy gala affair, lots of high (and otherwise) society guests, the works. The party gets brought on as extra security or something. Then, suddenly, a gruesome corpse is discovered, brutally killed! The estate gets locked down until the perpetrator can be brought to justice!

Paranoia and claustrophobia run rampant amongst the guests, fueling old feuds and rivalries. More bodies start appearing, and arguments and accusations run rampant. The clock is ticking to find the killer before the guests turn upon one another in desperation like the cornered animals they are.


...except, if one were to speak with the dead spirit of the first victim, the party would learn that they're just a massive klutz and just managed to accidentally kill themselves in spectacularly gory fashion. All the other bodies are the various guests trying to 1) Capitalize on the situation to settle some old scores, or 2) Fix the problem themselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 19, 2021, 01:12:30 pm

I've always had an idea in the back of my head for a legend of the five rings one-shot where the players get premade characters.  They're in the winter court of a lion clan lord when he's murdered, and the goal is to find the killer.  I'd imply without stating outright that one of the players is the murderer, and each player's character would have a set of motivations and secret goals (e.g. the lion clan bushi is having a secret affair with his liege's daughter.  The scorpion clan shugenja has seen them meeting at night and knows about the affair, etc.) designed to make them mistrust each other.  The actual murderer is an NPC, and the goal of the scenario is to have a hamlet-style social breakdown leading to everyone dying at the end.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 19, 2021, 04:43:17 pm

Five Rings, the game where you need at least two books to figure out who your character is and how he feels about stuff... I get the feeling I'd like to try playing it someday, the dice system intrigues me. ...but hoo-ee, that's some heavy lore and etiquette, boy.


So, question... Illusionist Wizard and his sling-wielding buddy. Illusionist casts Creation, making a stone sling bullet. He gives it to his buddy, who pops it into the sling.

Next turn, Illusionist readies an action, and slingy whips the bullet at someone naughty.

When the bullet has crossed (Half? Most? Whatever seems reasonable) the distance to its target, Illusionist uses his readied action, which is to take his subclass ability Malleable Illusions and change the nature of the sling bullet per the boundaries of the Creation spell. It is now a 5'x5'x5' solid block of Adamantine (or whatever else you might wish to change it into). Does the object maintain its momentum, turning into an obliterating cannonball, or does the momentum reset because the spell got "refreshed" and it just drops to the ground?


Alternatively, just make a nice wreath for someone, have them put it on, and then turn it into a giant crushing weight of death. Or give a pea to a flying familiar.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2021, 05:22:05 pm

Object retains its kinetic energy between transformations, turning from a fast moving pebble into a relatively slow moving boulder which deals around the same amount of damage, maybe a little less due to a wider surface area.

Of course, this just means that you should get the barbarian or whoever's strongest to yeet a lead bowling ball as hard as she can, and then convert it into a very thin and light 5' wide monomolecular obsidian blade which is now moving extremely fast.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 19, 2021, 06:20:05 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on March 19, 2021, 05:22:05 pm

Object retains its kinetic energy between transformations, turning from a fast moving pebble into a relatively slow moving boulder which deals around the same amount of damage, maybe a little less due to a wider surface area.

Of course, this just means that you should get the barbarian or whoever's strongest to yeet a lead bowling ball as hard as she can, and then convert it into a very thin and light 5' wide monomolecular obsidian blade which is now moving extremely fast.

Yeah, as long as you're all playing the same rules, whatever they are, you can have some interesting effects from spells. Similar to the old 3.x rule where it was possible to shapeshift into any animal in the game. The question was if you retained your BAB (including number of attacks) so it was good to turn into a creature that had one big attack, or if you used the creatures and wanted to turn into something with a large number of attacks. Sadly, when asked, the devs always said it was the one not being asked about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on March 19, 2021, 06:20:53 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on March 19, 2021, 05:22:05 pm

Object retains its kinetic energy between transformations, turning from a fast moving pebble into a relatively slow moving boulder which deals around the same amount of damage, maybe a little less due to a wider surface area.

Of course, this just means that you should get the barbarian or whoever's strongest to yeet a lead bowling ball as hard as she can, and then convert it into a very thin and light 5' wide monomolecular obsidian blade which is now moving extremely fast.

That's the realistic answer, but it's possible that objects mid-flight are stopped by the spell until the object is fully transformed. That would be the most balanced answer from a game mechanics perspective, but what's the point of playing an RPG if you can't immerse yourself in the physics of the world and discover new innovations? I mean that's what science is all about, finding physics exploits in the world. Have you heard of heat-pumps?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 19, 2021, 06:28:59 pm

And even that just opens up a different trick- launching the pebbles above the enemy, then converting them to lead. JK- might as well use silver :D
(I forget adamantine's weight in dnd, I like to picture DF's feather light but very sharp weave)

What a strange interaction, I agree it's funny to think about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on March 19, 2021, 07:43:02 pm

Kobold's are my favorite race to play.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 19, 2021, 09:42:26 pm

Shouldn't it be "sunpai notice me"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 19, 2021, 09:47:01 pm

sunpai

sunpai in a bottle

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on March 19, 2021, 10:01:03 pm

Sunchan is best.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 19, 2021, 10:11:54 pm

I'd suggest Sun-kun but only seems correct after it sets.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on March 19, 2021, 10:51:18 pm

I love how I was like:

Quote from: Horizon on March 19, 2021, 07:43:02 pm

Kobold's are my favorite race to play.

But I've sprung up debate over my title. XD This and Estus flasks are the main reasons I wake up everyday.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 20, 2021, 05:54:55 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on March 19, 2021, 06:28:59 pm

(I forget adamantine's weight in dnd, I like to picture DF's feather light but very sharp weave)

I'd gotten it into my head that it was super heavy for some reason, which is weird because I did play BG2 with the super slick Drow equipment... But according to Random Page I Just Found™ (https://olddungeonmaster.com/2016/12/06/dd-5e-weights-of-materials/), it's a bit lighter than steel.

So what you're really gonna want, if we're going for pure weight, is gold or platinum. Kill 'em with bling.


On a side note... I've been thinking a little about the XP system. In the limping wreckage of the current campaign I'm in, we're going off of "checkpoint" leveling, where the DM just decides on points in the story where we should level up, and then we do. And I can definitely get behind that way of doing things (our bard hasn't quite found his peace with it though, and therefore asks after every session "Did I level up? Have we leveled up yet?"), but I was wondering about potential alternatives to just making the DM have to come up with the pacing.

Kill XP is great fun for ARPGs, but I feel like it's missing the point for more open platforms like D&D. And for as messed up a system as it was, I can kinda appreciate the early version mechanics of gold = XP. But how do we go about tweaking that so that it doesn't lead to 1) Players squabbling even more over loot shares, or 2) Resulting in a double progression as they're gaining gold *and* XP at the same time and therefore increasing in power on two different fronts simultaneously.

I was wondering how it would end up working out if you had a sort of "communal account" that everyone in the party donated to, and every character in that party had their XP total equal the amount (of GP) in the account. Withdrawals could be made (which would reduce XP totals but not remove levels) for large purchases the group agreed upon, while every character donated what they had in excess and held on to whatever pocket change they felt they needed to have.

There are a couple interactions here that seem potentially undesirable... One is having players "game" the system by pooling all their cash in at once to hit a new level threshold, then taking the money back out to spend it. This is slightly compensated for by the fact that they'd need to make it all back again anyways to hit the next level after that, but it's still worth mentioning.

The other is having players "mooch" and not donate anything from their personal stash, instead relying on the rest of the party to donate gold for their own XP progression. Hopefully their greed for progression would make them donate to speed up their own leveling, but I do think it's a concern.

I just like having more "flexible" resources like wealth get used for character progression, because there are a great many ways of making money... But killing something just about always involves killing something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 20, 2021, 10:26:08 am

I'd just split the entire party income as XP across the entire party equally, regardless of who's physically carrying it much less spending it.  Much like they worked together to kill that troll and would get equal XP from it, they 'worked together' to earn that loot paycheck today.

On 2), if anything in classic D&D leveling was a lot slower.  Keep in mind most all monsters offered pitiful XP rewards for killing them.  A goblin in 1st ed is worth maybe 15xp, split across the entire party, where in 3rd ed he's worth up to 100. A 1st ed Ogre Magi is about 437xp, in 3rd its around 2,400 (if met at 8th level like CR suggests).  Consider also that more monster abilities, especially poison for example, were more save-or-die, so that was another reason to maybe avoid combat.

Also, more XP was needed per level up, and each class leveled up at a different rate.  Thief was the fastest at about 1,500 for level 2, while wizard was much slower.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 21, 2021, 02:40:43 pm

So an idea which has been in my head lately is the idea of a Gladiator campaign, with the players all being members of a gladiatorial stable in a decent sized city, competing for fame, fortune and the amusement of the masses.

My thought would be to arrange the arena into seasons, with each season consisting of a mix of non-lethal fights against other gladiators, deathmatches with convicts, wild beasts and monsters, farcical challenges involving ridiculous scenarios like competing with another team to catch rodeo clowns, fighting puppet recreations of historical glories and folktales and other such events, leading up to a grand finale with a huge elaborate battle like that one where the romans flooded the colliseum and put two galleys in it and had gladiators fight a pretend naval battle.

On the side would be the more civilian aspect of being a gladiator, inter-personal drama within the team and with the other teams, drama with the manager, further drama with the owner, doing sponsored public appearances representing olive oil, wine or the latest fashion in sandals, attending the parties (and possibly bedrooms) of the rich and powerful who've taken a shine to the character(s), debauched nights on the town after a big win. All that fun stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 21, 2021, 02:48:22 pm

That sounds very fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 21, 2021, 05:02:57 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on March 21, 2021, 02:48:22 pm

That sounds very fun.

Seconding this. Although, be prepared to hear "Are you not entertained?" more times than you're ready to count.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 21, 2021, 11:54:10 pm

Is that not why we are here?!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2021, 07:56:36 am

What should you do if your friend is hopeless addicted to Mugabe inflated numbers? He is torturing another one of my friends to death by exposing him to a campaign where everything is overpowered to the point where the DM has to employ more fiat currency than Zimbabwe to stop the 500HP gigapeasants from annihilating his minmaxed Sorcerer/Paladin/Hexblade Warlock. The two of them are forming some kind of lichen colony where their mutual toxins combine to produce a horrifying blob which is worse than the sum of its parts, and the numbers just don't stop inflating

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 22, 2021, 08:21:02 am

But LW

Their campaign go to eleven

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 22, 2021, 09:43:11 am

maybe the imf can help this underdeveloped fantasy realm  :)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 23, 2021, 12:48:55 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on March 20, 2021, 10:26:08 am

I'd just split the entire party income as XP across the entire party equally, regardless of who's physically carrying it much less spending it.  Much like they worked together to kill that troll and would get equal XP from it, they 'worked together' to earn that loot paycheck today.

On 2), if anything in classic D&D leveling was a lot slower.  Keep in mind most all monsters offered pitiful XP rewards for killing them.  A goblin in 1st ed is worth maybe 15xp, split across the entire party, where in 3rd ed he's worth up to 100. A 1st ed Ogre Magi is about 437xp, in 3rd its around 2,400 (if met at 8th level like CR suggests).  Consider also that more monster abilities, especially poison for example, were more save-or-die, so that was another reason to maybe avoid combat.

Also, more XP was needed per level up, and each class leveled up at a different rate.  Thief was the fastest at about 1,500 for level 2, while wizard was much slower.

Also, Hitpoints have been inflated over time to make fights take longer, so you need more xp per kill. In AD&D, goblins got 1 HD, which is 1d8, so about 4 hp for 15 xp. in 5th edition, they've got 7 hp for 50 xp.

The ogre magi is 5 HD +2, so about 24 HP for 650 xp. Ogre mages in 5th edition have 51 HP for 1,800 xp.

It looks like about double hitpoints for about 3 times as much xp?

Quote from: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2021, 07:56:36 am

What should you do if your friend is hopeless addicted to Mugabe inflated numbers? He is torturing another one of my friends to death by exposing him to a campaign where everything is overpowered to the point where the DM has to employ more fiat currency than Zimbabwe to stop the 500HP gigapeasants from annihilating his minmaxed Sorcerer/Paladin/Hexblade Warlock. The two of them are forming some kind of lichen colony where their mutual toxins combine to produce a horrifying blob which is worse than the sum of its parts, and the numbers just don't stop inflating

It sounds like someone "playing wrong" and being punished for it, which pushes them to more extremes. Back to everyone needing to be on the same page for what type of game you're playing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on March 23, 2021, 04:05:08 am

So, my players defeated the vampire ninja boss last game, and one of my traditions is to create a custom magical item as a purchasable reward for the end of each scenario.

This time, it's gonna be a bag of vampire dust.

I figure I'll make it consumed by snorting it in lines, and have it last until they're exposed to sunlight when it's used, and give it a pretty hefty price tag to avoid it being more than a situational consumable. First round exposed to natural sunlight, they're staggered, second round, the dust's effects expire.

I'll have it make them count as undead in addition to their regular type for spells, effects or items that affect creatures of that type, but not grant any traits of the type or qualify for classes, feats or prerequisites for that type. Healed by negative energy, harmed by positive energy, immune to the effects of level drain, similar to dhampir.

Then, gain a random temporary effect from the table, with additional doses having no effect. So far, I have:

1. Gain darkvision 60 ft.
2. Gain or improve natural armor by +6.
3. Gain DR 10/magic and silver, and resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.
4. Gain Charisma bonus (if any) to hit points in addition to Constitution bonus.
5. Gain the ability to survive without eating, drinking or breathing.
6. Gain immunity to mind affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
7. Gain immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
8. Gain immunity to nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), exhaustion and fatigue effects.
9. Gain immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
10. Gain fast healing 5.
11. Gain a slam attack which inflicts 2 negative levels, up to once per round, on a hit, which is treated as a magic weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
12. Gain the ability to suck blood from a grappled opponent; when pinned, opponent is drained 1d4 points of Constitution damage, and user heals 5 hit points or gains 5 temporary hit points that stack and last 1 hour per round of draining blood.
13. Gain the ability to influence another's mind at will, as per the charm person spell, as a standard action.
14. Gain a once per day ability to call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or 2d6 wolves as a standard action. These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve for up to 1 hour.
15. Gain the ability to assume the form of a dire bat or wolf, as beast shape II.
16. Gain the ability to assume gaseous form as a standard action at will, but with the option to remain gaseous indefinitely and with a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
17. Gain the ability to climb sheer surfaces as if under the effects of a spider climb spell as an extraordinary ability.
18. Gain a +8 bonus on Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks.
19. Gain gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness as bonus feats if not already possessed.
20. Gain Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, and Cha +4.

I figure 1,500 gp per dose is a tempting yet expensive price for this consumable. Twice the cost of a 3rd level potion, but some great options on the list of possibilities. I can't wait to see the shenanigans my players come up with to avoid being exposed to natural light, too!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 23, 2021, 04:28:47 am

Assuming this is Pathfinder, 1500 gp is quite cheap for some of the effect magnitudes on that list. In a high-level game, I'd take that at the start of pretty much every dungeon, not as a situational consumable. There are some weaker effects in there (e.g. at will Charm Person won't do a lot), but it's still definitely worth the gamble. Of course, if you want players to be careful about using it, arm your villains with knowledge about it (or even doses for themselves) and Daylight spells. Or maybe if you use it more than three times between two full moons, you risk turning into a true vampire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on March 23, 2021, 04:50:11 am

Good points! What would you price this effect?

I figured it's about equal to Undead Anatomy IV, which is an 8th level spell, but with a bit of randomness in the results, some being weaker, and some being stronger, but not nearly as reliable. I priced it at half the cost of a scroll of the spell, and made it usable by all classes as it's a scenario reward.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on March 23, 2021, 05:36:24 am

Potions are already double-price scrolls usable by any class, so I'd use that price calculation instead (spell level * caster level * 50 gp). Undead Anatomy IV is a good comparison, since though the effects are random, they also have a longer duration. Going by minimum caster level, a potion of the spell would cost 6000 gp. Throw in the standard 20% discount for being an adventure reward and we get to 4800 gp per dose. If we read it as a 7th-level effect instead for the randomness and the weaker effects, the same calculation places the price at 3640 gp per dose.

Of course, there aren't official rules for high-level potions and you may decide to give a greater discount for the reward, so selling it at 1500 gp isn't out of the question, but I know that as a player I'd use it all the time for that price.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 23, 2021, 06:04:22 am

Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on March 22, 2021, 09:43:11 am

maybe the imf can help this underdeveloped fantasy realm  :)

Mr Mugabe austerity measures now¬

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 24, 2021, 06:54:04 am

Earthdawn is a setting with a lot of depth that is pretty interesting to think about (I think too much stuff is only for higher-level play for the game to be as good as it should be, but that's different).
Initially it was one of the D&D offshoots that people made back then, with the twist that it was designed from the ground up to have an explanation for why things were the way they were, and it's pretty clear that the history nerds who designed it put a lot of thought into it. There's a reason that it's one of the settings that was considered for the game that would become Fallout.

Spoiler: setting (click to show/hide)

The setting is an alternative Earth bronze age with magical technology (not quite steampunk) with a good amount of background for stuff. Then, an elf who was exiled from the elven nation/forest the Wyrmwood (coincidentally there is a forest in our world that translates to Wormwood, but is locally called Chernobyl) found some ancient texts that he was sure were important. When he finished translating them, he was found dead with his eyes torn out. He had left a message that these books contained a horrible message but would be the salvation of...metahumanity? I'm not sure what term they use, but it was linked with Shadowrun for like half of an edition to promote it, and that's the Shadowrun term, so good enough. It turns out the magic of the world is cyclical, and at the height of the cycle the Horrors are able to breach from their dimension into ours in about 1,000 years. They're essentially evil spirits/demons who corrupt and destroy. They're too powerful and numerous to successfully fight them, but it is possible to protect ourselves by building magical wards in protective structures. The downside is that the Horrors will have the run of the Earth for about 400 years, in what would be known as the Scourge. People didn't really believe the scholars who brought this message to the kingdoms that existed, so they went and formed their own city-state of scholars and mages on an island, and named it Thera. I said this was made by history nerds, so it's interesting to note that the Thira in our world is a city on Santorini island that may have been the basis for the story of Atlantis. It's never made explicit, but it's a kind of cool Easter Egg the devs threw in there.

One of the precursors to the Scourge is insect spirits known as invae showing up and trying to colonize by doing the pod people thing. Of course when this prediction came true, people started getting more interested in those ancient texts, and Thera started to grow even more rapidly. To handle the growth, merchant houses started charging people to come study, having them work off the travel costs. Over time, the costs increased and the terms became more and more one-sided in favor of the merchants. Eventually, Thera became powerful enough that they returned to the part of the world they called Barsaive, willing to trade the secrets of surviving the Scourge in exchange for ruling over the region and all of the kingdoms in it, and also getting all of the wealth and resources they desired. People didn't like the harsh rulership, but they also didn't like their odds of surviving 400 years of demons roaming the Earth corrupting, torturing, and devouring. The Therans also had powerful war airships and a lot of powerful mages. You don't found an evil empire without being able to back it up.

They took over, allowed the dwarven nation of Throal to be their intermediaries, and were fairly happy being distant rulers who recieved a large amount of tribute. There was a war to free Barsaive, which ended with Thera saying "whatever, we're going to go seal ourselves away for the duration of the Scourge anyway, but we totally didn't lose." The dwarves who had been distributing the plans to the shelters (called Kaers) now started distributing them for free. They had also spent the centuries of Theran rule digging a huge mountain kingdom that they could seal off and doing philosophy to determine what a society after the Scourge would look like. They had determined that slavery was bad, and outlawed it. Along with the secrets of the kaers, they distributed books that detailed their philosophy and society, along with teaching materials so Barsaive would have a common language and culture that would be more resistant to Thera's return.

Anyway, there are monsters because the Horrors corrupted and destroyed for 400 years (monsters are horror-corrupted creatures and minor horrors who didn't get forced to leave when magic started falling again, there are dungeons because of the kaers, and heroes wander the world exploring the post-apocalyptic world.

That's a lot of words as a precursor to the thoughts that kept me awake last night: what would society in the kaers look like? They're caves or domed cities or similar defenses that use True Elements (pea-sized grains of elemental power taken from sites of concentrated elements, like True Fire from volcanoes) to protect and sustain themselves. True Water to keep the water source usable, True Fire for heating and smokeless cooking/forges, true air to keep the air breathable, and True Earth to keep the walls sturdy and prevent burrowing creatures/Horrors from entering. Large light crystals are sustained by magic rituals and are renewed annually. But what about sources of food? Clothing? What is done with bodies? What do you do in a cave for generations with no contact with the outside world? What of the kaers that were put together hastily in the time after Thera left but before the Scourge that didn't have enough resources to properly prepare?

And, for obvious reasons, I'm posting these questions on the dwarf fortress forums. What do you think the answers would be?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 24, 2021, 09:36:34 am

True Light in the roof to make plant farmable indoors :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on March 24, 2021, 01:01:06 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on March 23, 2021, 05:36:24 am

Potions are already double-price scrolls usable by any class, so I'd use that price calculation instead (spell level * caster level * 50 gp). Undead Anatomy IV is a good comparison, since though the effects are random, they also have a longer duration. Going by minimum caster level, a potion of the spell would cost 6000 gp. Throw in the standard 20% discount for being an adventure reward and we get to 4800 gp per dose. If we read it as a 7th-level effect instead for the randomness and the weaker effects, the same calculation places the price at 3640 gp per dose.

Of course, there aren't official rules for high-level potions and you may decide to give a greater discount for the reward, so selling it at 1500 gp isn't out of the question, but I know that as a player I'd use it all the time for that price.

It depends on the player though. Some people are stingy with their consumables no matter what. It's possible that no matter what they do, they just won't use it. I like the idea of there being a risk that a player will turn into a vampire with overuse. I think it's a better way of limiting use than plain-old scarcity.

If your players aren't stingy though, then I think a GP price is fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 24, 2021, 01:55:03 pm

Potions are for keeping in your inventory, not for drinking! If you want to drink, get a waterskin!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 24, 2021, 02:04:32 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 24, 2021, 01:55:03 pm

Potions are for keeping in your inventory, not for drinking! If you want to drink, get a waterskin!

I mean, I assume cure light wounds potions more or less taste like cold syrup medicine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on March 25, 2021, 04:57:17 am

Can't think of anything to add to the conversation so I'm just gonna leave this here, PTW.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 25, 2021, 07:38:14 am

Quote from: scriver on March 24, 2021, 09:36:34 am

True Light in the roof to make plant farmable indoors :D

Yes, but that's tougher without having access to new seeds. Although I'm guessing you've got all of your free space in town dedicated to farming now. They probably didn't plan for a massive amount of extra space in the vault/kaer, and the population will change some in 400 years.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 25, 2021, 07:48:57 am

Can't they use the grain they get from the harvest like they did in the olden times? Or do you mean because it won't get pollinated (if they require that, I don't know off hand) because there are no inside bees?

...Suddenly the "insect swarm" spell get a whole new use xD

I just played in a campaign where we explored ruined buildings from a sort of underwater bunker living people, and the remains of their indoor farms, but how they farmed them never really came to my mind beyond "oh cool they used UV everlanterns in the roof the get sunlight"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 25, 2021, 02:49:14 pm

Quote from: scriver on March 25, 2021, 07:48:57 am

Can't they use the grain they get from the harvest like they did in the olden times? Or do you mean because it won't get pollinated (if they require that, I don't know off hand) because there are no inside bees?

It's more of a problem of forgetting to bring them or something getting into the seeds. Although I guess blights and rodents aren't as much of a problem when you're in sealed vault.

But I'm guessing you don't have a lot of livestock inside a cave (lack of anything for them to graze on). So cotton would be the only source of fabric unless you use...other leather.

I guess you could find a way to pollinate the plants by hand, or whatever people do with houseplants. Wind and bees are not going to be reliable. Although I should check the spell lists like you said. I wonder how much stuff might be useful.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 01, 2021, 07:42:27 pm

Bored for short periods of time at work, so I'm checking old 3.x spells for fun. http://dndtools.org/spells/ and http://dndsrd.net/wizardSpells.html will get you most (all?) of them.

Anyone know of fun ways to do way more damage than expected/damage at all from non-damage spells? Knocking someone out and coup-de-grace is greatly effective, but I'm thinking of stuff like making a wall that is shaped like a cylinder, on its side, at the top of a hill with enemies below. Just stupid ideas that were possible because the rules were permissive.

A favorite:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Launch item, a level 1 spell, taking advantage of the falling damage rules. Dropping any object that weighs at least 1 pound 70 feet does d6 damage (60 feet for 6-10 pounds), which is okay for a 1st level spell. The max falling damage is 20d6 at 190 feet above that, so 260 feet max. The spell allows for an object to be moved 400 ft + 40/level, which is somewhat larger than max damage. I believe 20d6, if it hits, is enough to kill most enemies you'd bother to target with a level 1 spell. Although, as it's not intended as an attack, you'd have to figure out some way of determining if you hit (geometry/int-based ranged-touch attack?).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on April 01, 2021, 08:03:21 pm

Quote from: Iduno on April 01, 2021, 07:42:27 pm

Bored for short periods of time at work, so I'm checking old 3.x spells for fun. http://dndtools.org/spells/ and http://dndsrd.net/wizardSpells.html will get you most (all?) of them.

Anyone know of fun ways to do way more damage than expected/damage at all from non-damage spells? Knocking someone out and coup-de-grace is greatly effective, but I'm thinking of stuff like making a wall that is shaped like a cylinder, on its side, at the top of a hill with enemies below. Just stupid ideas that were possible because the rules were permissive.

Depends.  Do you count metamagic that technically adds trivial amounts of damage?  One traditional solution that's (a) definitely a stupid idea and (b) definitely takes advantage of permissive rules is the Locate City bomb:

Spoiler: Here lies questionably-legal munchkinry (click to show/hide)

The Core
1. Learn Locate City (Races of Destiny): Area of effect 10 miles per level circle, effect is to locate a city
2. Apply Snowcasting (Frostburn): Spell now has the cold descriptor
3. Apply Flash Frost (PHB 2): Spell now deals 2 points of cold damage to all in area and makes the area slippery

Here, we have two options:
Type A: The Punt
4. Apply Energy Substitution (Electricity) (Complete Arcane): Spell now deals electric damage
5. Apply Born of Three Thunders (Complete Arcane): Spell deals half electric, half sonic damage. All damaged creatures are stunned (fortitude negates) and all stunned creatures are knocked prone (reflex negates)
6. Apply Explosive Spell (Complete Arcane): All creatures/things in area that fail their reflex saves are shunted to the outside of the area of effect and take 1d6 damage per 10' moved

Type B: The Dawn of the Dead
4. Apply Fell Drain (Libris Mortis): All living creatures in the area that take damage gain a negative level. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, it dies (Drain).  Creatures killed by level drain (read: every level one creature) are revived the next day as wights.

The first is either lethal or amusing depending on whether your GM interprets the closest distance to the outside of the area of effect as being the outer edge of the circle or straight up/down (a circle being a two-dimensional shape), or merely throws the rulebook at you (or rules that the list of available areas of effect for Explosive Spell are exhaustive and thus does not include a circle).  The second is one of the traditional starters for a wightpocalypse, and may also result in a rulebook being thrown at you. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 02, 2021, 07:57:09 am

I was looking for spells, but these are some wild feats.

Quote from: Culise on April 01, 2021, 08:03:21 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. Learn Locate City (Races of Destiny): Area of effect 10 miles per level circle, effect is to locate a city
2. Apply Snowcasting (Frostburn): Spell now has the cold descriptor
3. Apply Flash Frost (PHB 2): Spell now deals 2 points of cold damage to all in area and makes the area slippery

That's...they did not word those very carefully. Snowcasting is potentially a worthless or overpowered feat, depending on how easily you can find snow/ice. And Flash Frost clearly is intended to add damage to damage spells, but didn't bother saying that.

Quote from: Culise on April 01, 2021, 08:03:21 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Apply Fell Drain (Libris Mortis): All living creatures in the area that take damage gain a negative level. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, it dies (Drain).  Creatures killed by level drain (read: every level one creature) are revived the next day as wights.

+2 levels to make a spell drain levels from your opponent? Way too good. Get some metamagic rods.


Edit: I also like that the description of Stinking Cloud also lets you know it works with a permanence spell. I don't know why you would need to, but it would be hilarious.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 09, 2021, 08:52:57 am

Does anyone have any campaigns they'd love to play/run?

I've got 4 from normal to weird.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have had an intro to Shadowrun campaign sort of half-formed in my head for the last year or so. I should get around to finishing that out, even if I don't have a group. The idea is that people who have never played before but are interested, could do so.


I'd like an intro Earthdawn campaign. I've never played, but "Bronze-age Fallout the TTRPG" is a pretty good selling point, and the living weapons (and a few other things) were a cool enough idea that D&D tried to copy them. Not nearly as well as the original, but they tried. A from the kaer to mid-level or so campaign would probably want higher karma rewards to get to see everything in a reasonable amount of time, but at least would give players the chance to see what's possible.


Higher-powered D&D (probably 3.x) could be fun if everyone involved is on-board. Probably would fit best with the "each character from a different campaign setting" idea. Each player provides the information necessary to run a campaign in that setting, and makes a character using some of those books with the generic stuff, and a decent enough backstory to provide a reason to want to go back.
Perhaps the Forgotten Realms character has beef with the Harpers' meddling, and needs to kill Elminster (because, given the opportunity, it sounds like a fun thing to shoot for). That sort of thing. Dealing with big-name NPCs and trying to get to places like Athas (only connect to other primes though the elemental plane of fire) means cleverness and power are both required.


Shadowrun: Slice-of-life comedy. Runs are reduced to a few rolls and some stuff happening in the background over the course of a few minutes, then the characters solve their own problems in their downtime. Getting the rigger's van out of lock-up before they figure out how much illegal stuff is in it, one of the characters has to hide their life from their parents who are visiting, or helping the socially-inept combat character make it through their date with the mafia don's daughter/son. Would require players experienced enough in the system to enjoy ignoring the main portion of the game and playing with sitcom-like plots and other stupidity, but it would be beer-and-peanuts fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 11, 2021, 01:48:15 pm

Quote from: Iduno on April 09, 2021, 08:52:57 am

Does anyone have any campaigns they'd love to play/run?

Quote from: Kagus on August 19, 2019, 01:41:28 pm

Is it wrong to want to run a campaign where the antagonists are two necromancer brothers from Kara-Tur, just so you can prove that two Wongs can make a wight?

:P

Aside from that, I think some kind of murder mystery might be interesting, even if it isn't specifically the "gotcha" scenario I've fiddled with a little bit.


I'm also intrigued by the concept of a sort of "shadow apocalypse" taking off in a town, where some rogue shadows have started killing the townsfolk and turning their shadows into more living monstrosities. The party has to determine the cause and source of the killings quickly, otherwise the shadow tide will grow exponentially and may become too much for them to handle...


EDIT: Just had another session tonight, first one in a month or so. Unfortunate events lead to us starting close to an hour and a half after scheduled go time, but that's not entirely unusual for us.

During this endeavor, the party (all three of us) encountered our very first puzzle! What strange and tantalizing riddle would our brave adventurers have to-


Sudoku. It was a simplified sudoku. Put the skulls on the grid so there are the correct number of skulls on each row and column. Skulldoku. Cue one player simply bailing and the other two sitting in absolute silence as we worked it out on scratch paper.  **Gameplay**

But hey! When the puzzle was solved, the ground stopped existing and I got to use Feather Fall for the first time this campaign! That was fun.


Then the bard asked if we'd leveled up.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on April 12, 2021, 02:50:46 am

Not a great puzzle, but not a bad one either.

Has anyone else used puzzles that work well in D&D or the like, especially with the combat round system? Personally, I think the best puzzles are those that combine the combat system as with the puzzle, where one or more characters have to spend their combat actions to actively solve the challenge while the others defend them against enemies that only stop when the puzzle is solved.

I designed a puzzle that worked this way for one of my boss encounters. In the centre of the boss room was a reactor, drawing power from four machines in each corner of the room. The reactor channeled power into the boss monster, giving it 5 regeneration per round per active machine. Each machine had a lever that could be pulled as a move action.

The trick was that the four levers toggled the machines active or inactive, and some would affect more than one. At the start, the first machine toggled itself, the second machine toggled itself and the one clockwise from it, the third toggled itself and two clockwise, and the fourth machine toggled all four. Each time a machine was toggled, the sequence would rotate clockwise, such that the second machine only toggled itself, the third toggled itself and one, etc.

A simple puzzle if you knew the trick, but trying to derive the pattern via observation is tricky, especially in a combat situation where other things are happening at the same time. Eventually the players decided to bypass the puzzle by just smashing the machines, which I admit is probably the best solution to that Gordian knot.

I'm always on the lookout for similar puzzles I can adapt to my games. I'm trying to invent something using number patterns like the Fibonacci sequence or so forth, but while the math is great, it's harder to game-ify it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on April 12, 2021, 07:45:02 am

Puzzles in the game are always weird. Why did the inhumanly smart character not know how to solve it? Or why was the dumbest character the one to do so easily?

Giving the players a bonus to their roll/a reduction in the difficulty if they have a good idea how to solve the puzzle speeds things up a lot, and means that usually having a character who is good at that kind of thing is beneficial.

I see it the same as people who want the player to be good at debating if they want to be allowed to play a high-charisma character. You don't make the player actually pick locks, or get stabbed, or whatever. It's a game, let people play something different than themselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 12, 2021, 08:24:48 am

Quote from: Iduno on April 12, 2021, 07:45:02 am

or get stabbed

clearly we have not been playing the same kind of rpgs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 20, 2021, 04:47:17 am

My DM has finally reached his apotheosis

The setting has birthed the blacksun after hell a player deleted hell with minimal effort because of a DM oversight
Rampant mugabe inflation has finally spread from the power creep to the actual currency, rendering the gold standard worthless after a caravan full of cursed wealth egressed from a temple of doom
Everywhere there are big guys 4 U
The wholesome characters have all become incessantly edgy, punished bards
There remains but one more gigachad for our player hero to defeat

Meanwhile I'm having a blast playing NPCs in this campaign. Though NPCs is probably the wrong term if I'm playing them. My favourite playable supporting cast character is easily Miss Carbuncle, who the party still can't decide whether she's helping them or betraying them, as she's always present when things go wrong but she always claims to and always seems to be helping; despite oozing unnecessary amounts of sinister intent. May or may not be evil Granny Mushroom. Even I and the DM don't know if Carbuncle is really betraying them, we just both agreed it'd be hilarious to have a character who would trigger a witchhunter's worse stereotypes. Also there's some great amusement in that magic is supposed to be extremely rare in this world, and it's one of those "we're fantasy but actually this is post-scifi apocalypse campaign." Despite that the two players use magic to solve just about every problem. Carbuncle, being a hag of some kind, is a magic user but has yet to resort to magic for any of her problems. This was a matter of great amusement when the bard player clocked that it was very strange for the frail old lady to have 18 STR

So far I've just been using the stats for a hag NPC but the DM suggested I add some player levels to accommodate more Mugabe; what'd be a good witch themed one? Druid of spores for Granny Mushroom obvs but I'm also wondering what'd be some other nice ones. Wizard anything is always very witchy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 09, 2021, 12:31:15 pm

I think this is the blog of one of the current Earthdawn developers, sort of working on ideas or as a place to store stuff that doesn't quite fit with the game. It's a description of one of the Horrors (something like demons from the spirit realm that return when magic is powerful enough in the world to feed on any suffering they can cause). This one leans more into the horror elements of the game than the adventuring bits, and is entertainingly wtf.

https://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/2020/10/earthdawn-4e-anatomy-of-horror-13.html (https://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/2020/10/earthdawn-4e-anatomy-of-horror-13.html)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 09, 2021, 04:59:42 pm

Quote

Flesh of Theseus (Sustained): The Pritchman cuts off a piece of a marked victim and devours it, then cuts off the equivalent piece from his body and attaches it to the victim, which blends into the victim’s body shortly and gives them at least one Corruption Point (more may be appropriate for larger body parts at the gamemaster’s discretion). His body part quickly grows back and looks reminiscent of the victim’s body part. This functions like Horror Thread (Gamemaster’s Guide, p. 464), but there are no additional costs and it is always successful. However, The Pritchman can only control that affected piece of the victim’s body—this allows him to see out of their eye, listen from their ear, use their hand, etc. The Pritchman’s mark can never be removed or sequestered once this power is used.

Gonna yoink this one for my NPC fleshcrafter who offers "upgrades" in exchange for "downgrades"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on May 10, 2021, 02:59:20 am

Quote from: Iduno on May 09, 2021, 12:31:15 pm

I think this is the blog of one of the current Earthdawn developers, sort of working on ideas or as a place to store stuff that doesn't quite fit with the game. It's a description of one of the Horrors (something like demons from the spirit realm that return when magic is powerful enough in the world to feed on any suffering they can cause). This one leans more into the horror elements of the game than the adventuring bits, and is entertainingly wtf.

https://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/2020/10/earthdawn-4e-anatomy-of-horror-13.html (https://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/2020/10/earthdawn-4e-anatomy-of-horror-13.html)

Great stuff there! I'm currently running a kyton-heavy scenario, and something like this is great material for a bit of flavour to the scenes I'm developing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 10, 2021, 07:34:00 am

Quote from: Jimmy on May 10, 2021, 02:59:20 am

Quote from: Iduno on May 09, 2021, 12:31:15 pm

I think this is the blog of one of the current Earthdawn developers, sort of working on ideas or as a place to store stuff that doesn't quite fit with the game. It's a description of one of the Horrors (something like demons from the spirit realm that return when magic is powerful enough in the world to feed on any suffering they can cause). This one leans more into the horror elements of the game than the adventuring bits, and is entertainingly wtf.

https://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/2020/10/earthdawn-4e-anatomy-of-horror-13.html (https://pandagaminggrove.blogspot.com/2020/10/earthdawn-4e-anatomy-of-horror-13.html)

Great stuff there! I'm currently running a kyton-heavy scenario, and something like this is great material for a bit of flavour to the scenes I'm developing.

Yeah, D&D 3rd (and again in 4th) did grab some ideas from Earthdawn, so I can see Earthdawn material matching nicely. I think a lot of the reason I'd like to play Earthdawn is to see all of the ideas and possibilities it has. Putting the requirement on themselves that everything has to fit together means a lot of things are more developed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 21, 2021, 05:16:08 pm

So for a dark setting I'm working on I want to break up the mono-culture races that D&D tends to have, starting with the dwarves because I have to start somewhere. So I want to split them into culture groups, not all related to each other, with some being oppressed by the others, all with their own language and so on. I don't plan to be super specific, since I plan for dwarven politics to mostly only play into things in as much as they affect refugees and diplomats in a human centric part of the world, but I want to have a good feel for the basics and who hates who.

I'm aiming for 15 races/cultures, spread among about 9 kindgoms, with some dwarven races being minorities in some kingdoms, majorities in others, actively subject to genocide in others, or completely absent from some.

For simplicity I plan to split them into 4 groups, and I am going to provisionally just give them english names, but I'm probably going to find a few related languages I can butcher to give them better names in future. My current thoughts on them are as follows.

The four ethnic families of the dwarves are the great dwarves, the dwarves of the black lands, the lesser dwarves (not their preferred name) and the green dwarves.

The Great Dwarves consist of four races. For now let's just call them G1, G2, G3 and G4, because names are hard. The Great Dwarves speak a related group of languages and can communicate with each other in a faltering fashion. They are as a group taller than the other dwarven ethnicities and worship variations on the god Gann who they believe made the world and made the Great Dwarves to be his chosen servants. G1 and G3 include other lesser deities in their pantheons, G2 are purely monotheistic and G4 believe in a handful of cultural saints who serve as intermediaries between them and Gann. G1, G2 and G3 are the dominant races in five of the dwarven kingdoms, with G4 being a minority largely found in the other Great Dwarven lands. Great Dwarves in the lands of other dwarven races are subject to severe bigotry, generally being seen as spies or saboteurs working for their rather imperialistic homelands.

The Dwarves of the Black Lands consist of six races, B1-B6. Like the great dwarves the black dwarves have related languages and can communicate to a limited extent without translation, though B3 cannot communicate with B1 or B5. They are long limbed and slender for dwarves, with strong cultural trends towards modesty and the careful use of resources. This stems from their now fertile lands being the product of a series of volcanic eruptions that nearly drove them to extinction and brought them to worship the gods of boundaries, of bounty and of protection when they where offered the magic they needed to survive the harsh conditions that afflicted their lands for several years. B6 is a conglomerate culture of displaced members of B1-B5, that split off during the early days of the volcanic eruptions and the resulting turmoil, and maintain the old religion worshipping the goddess Arctus. Dwarves of culture B6 mostly fled into the kingdoms of the Great Dwarves as refugees, where they live their lives as an oppressed minority, but their faith is forbidden in the lands of their ethnic kin, where they face severe puishment if they refuse to convert to the new gods. B1-B5 are the dominant group in 3 of the dwarven kingdoms, but in kingdoms ruled by other dwarves they are subject to extreme prejudice and occasionaly genocide, which they are quite happy to return in kind.

The Lesser Dwarves consist of four races, L1-L4. Their languages are related to one another, but L1 and L4 differ enough that they cannot communicate. Lesser dwarves are shorter on average than other dwarves, and are considered inferiors by almost all other dwarves. The Lesser Dwarves are found in all the dwarven kingdoms, living in ethnic enclaves or mobile caravans. They are more close knit than the other dwarven races, viewing even their most distant cultural kin as friends in defiance of a hostile world. L2 are the dominant race in a single kingdom, and drove the others LDwarves, including many L2 dwarves, out of their lands as a result of a schism rooted in conflicting interpretations of their gnostic faith. Lesser dwarves are the most commonly found in non-dwarven lands, fleeing oppression and genocide that follows them everywhere in the homelands. Among refugees populations L2 dwarves are generally disliked by other LDwarves, who resent them for their relationship to the dwarves that drove them from their homelands.

The Green Dwarves are a singular race, with a language unrelated to any other dwarven tongue. They live in nomadic groups outside the traditional dwarven lands, and tell tales of being driven from there an extremely long time ago. They have a cultural tradition of cooperating with humans, and over time have adopted a form of pantheism, worshipping every god whose faith their community has encountered in it's travels and still remembers to include in prayers. Green dwarves do not distinguish between the dwarven races from the homelands, which the refugee and expatriate communities of other dwarves they encounter find incredibly insulting.

Dwarves do not generally bother to distinguish between the ethnic variations from groups other than their own. That is to say, an LDwarf doesn't distinguish between a B1 and a B3, though the B1 and B3 hold themselves to be distinct from one another in important ways. Put another way, dwarves are racist. But everyone is probably going to be in the setting I envisage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on May 23, 2021, 10:33:37 am

I like that, Portent! I think there a lot if interesting stuff to be gained from breaking up races into cultures like that. Just gotta think about not overdoing it, for example how many of FR's dozens of human cultures and culture groups can anyone recall existing?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on May 23, 2021, 01:07:15 pm

When I glimpsed your list, I thought you were having a dwarf only campaign (which you definitely have enough content for btw). I like it, I really do, but I don't think this is practical for a D&D campaign, at least if you plan on giving the other races the same treatment.

You've got 15 different dwarven subcultures here, each of which is going to need to be fleshed out or else the hole will be obvious to those playing the game and detract from the experience. Assuming you stick with the basic trio of humans, elves, and dwarves (the latter which you already started), you're going to have to come up with 45 different cultures in total which is a lot of work.

I believe you can accomplish this, the real problem is incorporating it into a game. That's a lot of information to hold in one's head, and running a session is already a mentally intense activity. You're either going to give yourself a headache trying to figure out how to bring up these different cultural groups in a given play session or your not going to bring some of them up at all. If the latter happens, then what was the point of creating them in the first place?

I do like your idea in principle though. Real cultures and ethnicities are incredibly diverse and it would be great to see some of that represented in fiction. I just see your task more as a fun mental exercise rather than something that can practically be used in a game. Don't worry, I've done this too. It's fun in its own way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 24, 2021, 05:10:33 am

My plan, such as it is, is to set the game I want to run in a single recently conquered province of a human empire. So the majority of NPCs would be the local human ethnicity, plus members of the empire's dominant ethnic group, other imperial ethnicities, small dwarven enclaves of various oppressed groups, maybe the odd dwarf of status from the homelands whose distinctly not part of the dwarven refugee communities, and then the elves as a nomadic monoculture due to some apocalyptic stuff that destroyed their homelands and left them forever damned.

The main human group I have in mind is called the Val, sort of a eastern europe/steppe cultures mashup. About a third of their lands were conquered by the Aurogentum Empire and the Val as a people are split into a few mindsets on the matter. 'Free' Val either view their occupied cousins as people needing their help to be freed, or as weaklings and/or traitors who allowed the empire to take their lands, 'Imperial' Val are divided on the empire, some like it, some hate it, some don't really care, some actively resist it even four decades after being conquered. The Val have their own religion, based around a unitary duality that encompasses all things, which conflicts with the main religion of the empire who revere a monotheistic goddess called Astarte and her saints, some Imperial Val have converted, some stick to their own ways, some have adopted a hybrid faith that's considered weird at best by the others.

Other than the Val I'll probably only really flesh out the main imperial human race, and the race of humans who are native to the province(s) bordering the Val, on the grounds that humans from the far away parts of the empire are unlikely to have headed or been sent there in a short time and the older imperial human ethnic groups will have started to blend together.

Only a few dwarves will get actually fleshed out, those who have communities of refugees that have reasons, good or bad, to dislike one another. Dwarf groups that aren't prevalent among refugees will be left bare bones. So mostly the LDwarves because they'll be easy to base conflicts around with the emnity they have towards other dwarven groups and towards their L2 brethren.




Broad thrust of the actual game idea would have the players be Witch Hunters, with broad discretionary powers in dealing with heretics, unsanctioned magic users, fleshsculpters, wielders of the dark arts, cults, demons, monsters, dissidents and political malfactors. My plan is to run multiple shortish adventures, some for 1 PC, some for 2-3, and some for all 4 people in the group (not counting myself), with a mix of mystery, political intrigues, horror, and a bit of hack and slash.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on May 26, 2021, 12:14:38 pm

Yes! This is the stuff I like. (https://twitter.com/lindseybieda/status/1396459760069791749)

Range 60 feet, and the z-axis isn't forbidden. Excellent.

Also, it's a level 3 spell, so it's affected (in 3.x) by a minor rod of metamagic, like extend (1.5x all numbers, including distance and number of animals summoned).

In addition, summoning a bunch of cows seems like a good way to bribe a dragon.


Edit: I'd still like to find a teleport spell that is either ranged, or touch (which becomes ranged with the reach spell metamagic). 20d6 from falling is always fun. And sometimes they end up outside, which makes it difficult/time consuming for them to be angry at you for it. I assume this is why wizards live in towers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 26, 2021, 04:06:58 pm

Quote from: Iduno on May 26, 2021, 12:14:38 pm

Yes! This is the stuff I like. (https://twitter.com/lindseybieda/status/1396459760069791749)

Range 60 feet, and the z-axis isn't forbidden. Excellent.

Also, it's a level 3 spell, so it's affected (in 3.x) by a minor rod of metamagic, like extend (1.5x all numbers, including distance and number of animals summoned).

"Wizard, you're up. The gang of bandits is moving closer, surrounding the party on all sides. What do you do?"

"I cast Bird."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 29, 2021, 10:50:25 am

I've got a question. Assuming no concerns for standardised/balanced speed, how many metres per second would a hill giant move when walking/running sprinting? What about their even larger storm giant cousins? I've been trying to wrap my noggin around this conundrum for some time

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on May 29, 2021, 12:36:08 pm

The largest land animal capable of fast movement is probably elephants, which even hill giants exceed at 15 ft to the elephant average of 10.5 ft. So if you're really, truly, going to put the square-cube law in DnD, giants probably have to move slower as they get larger. I suppose they could still charge much like an elephant can charge, at some risk to their own lives.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 29, 2021, 01:48:18 pm

That works for hill giants. For storm ones I decided to just wing it using the speed of a T-Rex. Slow boys (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/tyrannosaur-trex-running-speed) who like plodding along at 3m/s and can book it a max 10m/s if they really feel like it. This compares to humans usual 3m/s and max of around 12m/s. Being chased by a storm giant might be fucking terrifying but you ought to be able to run faster and run longer than them, which seems aesthetically pleasing as a concept

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 29, 2021, 02:09:21 pm

Depends on the way their anatomy actually functions. If they're just humans but bigger because magic then they'd probably run pretty damn fast, at least compared to us, if their legs, bones and so forth are similar to those of other large animals then they'd probably be at most the same speed as humans or even significantly slower when at max speed.

The bigger an animal is the more impact force each step puts into it's legs, so bipeds past a certain size start having problems, especially if they walk and run like humans where sometimes a single foot takes all the impact force of the body running and jumping. So a giant massing the same as a large theropod dinosaur would presumably have to run slower than them or break it's ankles when it tried to sprint, and the speed estimates I've seen for large theropods aren't actually that great for such large animals, and it would have terrible balance because it's center of gravity would be really high up and shift whenever it leaned even slightly in any direction.

If a giant wanted to eat it would probably have to sit or squat and reach out with it's hands rather than lean, and would likely have to sleep in a squat, sitting or standing position. Without a tail to act as a counterbalance for their upper body leaning down to do anything would make them tip forwards, which would also make it hard to stand up in general come to think of it.

Hill giants are, imo, the best designed d&d giant from a realism standpoint, with short legs and long gorilla like arms, some of them are depicted with proportions that would let them knucklewalk, which reduces a lot of the problems of being a giant biped. They also have disproportionately large hands and feet, and are very fatty, which would help spread their weight over a larger ground surface and cushion their joints from impact force. Their huge sagging stomachs shift their center of gravity closer to their hips than the muscle chested larger giants whose center is going to be higher up. They're also lethargic and spend lots of time eating or laying about digesting and napping, and can eat basically anything organic, which is not a bad set of things for a large organism.

Fire giants are a bit stubby limbed, essentially being giants with dwarf proportions, so they'd struggle with a lot of tasks that force them to lean to reach things and risk tipping over. The other races are all human proportioned or really gangly in the case of stone giants, so they'd all struggle with the fact they aren't anatomically designed to be huge. Stone giants would probably be in constant minor discomfort from their joints having barely any fat cushion, based on their usually scrawny and wiry depictions, like dairy cattle compared to beef cattle.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 02, 2021, 08:10:14 am

So for the same setting as the dwarves I posted about above I have the following in mind for other major races.

Elves - nomadic wanderers, the hubris of their magi in ages past destroyed their homelands and cursed the elves with a spiritual stigmata that they bear to this day. Other races view them with fear and superstition and generally don't allow them into their towns and cities, and drive them away if they look to be settling down long term. When elves reach the age range of 650-750 they are supposed to commit ritual suicide according to their customs to prevent the curse that festers in all their souls from reaching maturity. Most elves face this death with acceptance, having had centuries to come to terms with it, but there are always some who seek to delay their death until it is too late, or flee from the prospect in it's entirety.

Humans - like everyone else, humans are kind of bastards. Superstitious, ambitious, clannish, and all the other properties of real life humanity.

Halflings - Much like humans, but able to reproduce faster and subject to a lot of prejudice, which they return vigorously. Slightly matriarchal and very clannish, with halfling women who bear enough children being able to form a large village in their lifetime and the resulting family remaining very close knit and living under the matriarch's thumb. Hospitable to people they don't know other than some bigoted rudeness, but with strong inclinations to more severe passive or overt aggression towards people from groups they have bad history with. If someone from a human village stiffed a halfling on a payment once, that halfling's community will hate the entire human village for a long time. Theorised by some magi to have been created.

Orcs and Goblins - created by a half-forgotten sorcerer-king of the dwarves, now revered in various different ways by the orcs and goblins. Orcs were created to serve as shock troops in dwarven wars, being faster and stronger than dwarves and naturally aggressive, while goblins were created to be domestic servants, their speed, dexterity and unobtrusiveness making them well suited to roles as gofers, maids, butlers and so forth. The use of these servile races fell out of fashion in the dwarven kingdoms, leading to the majority being banished and left to fend for themselves or murdered for the sake of convenience, but there are also established communities of orcs and goblins who had been granted freedom for dutiful service during the peak of their use, and some kingdoms still make use of small numbers of them. The general outlook of orcs and goblins towards other races varies by their communities' historical origins, with those who are descended from those who were pensioned off generally being quite amiable towards dwarves, while those who were exiled or escaped genocide take a rather dimmer view of their former owners. Relations between O&Gs and humans and halflings tend to be frosty, but are usually not outright hostile. The magically created nature of orcs and goblins makes them inherently heretical in the eyes of most human and halfling faiths, the priests of which encourage their congregations to avoid interacting with them.

Trolls - A very old race, fashioned by an ancient practitioner of magic from human stock to serve as living siege weapons. Trolls are essentially like D&D ogres and hill giants, huge deformed humans, rather than regenerating green monsters with long noses. Trolls are born much larger than humans, and mature rapidly. They have no known maximum height, growing steadily until the point they die. Their bodies are afflicted with what is essentially a form of exaggerated gigantism, their bones and tissues growing and distorting starting at a young age. This process is painful, trolls are subject to headaches, migraines, joint pain, muscle fatigue and various other ailments. Understandably this makes them generally pretty angry creatures, with a short temper and a tendency to lash out at their surroundings. Trolls are as intelligent as any normal human, but their living situation makes it difficult for them to learn or engage in healthy social interaction. While the original trolls were essentially just big grumpy humans, their children found themselves trapped in a downward spiral of physical and emotional abuse at the hands of their parents, which became progressively worse as each new generation was less functional than the last, to the point that many modern trolls are little more than apes, unfamiliar with language or the use of tools. With help from others trolls can be functioning members of a society, albeit prone to substance abuse to relieve their pain, but on their own they struggle to cope with their intergenerational traumas and physical suffering. Most cultures view trolls as little more than animals, with even those that have 'domestic' trolls viewing them as subhumans.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Jimmy on June 02, 2021, 05:30:34 pm

Nice write-up! The elf section gives a fair bit of grey room for some interesting story hooks, especially what happens when one doesn't commit ritual sudoku(sic). Are we looking at Tolkien elves, tall and fair, or Grimm fairytale elves, small and sprightly?

Also, trolls are great. I like their flavour, which reminds me of the old trolls that would live under bridges extorting billy-goats.

Speaking of fairytales, are you going to include gnomes and the fey? I've always loved the concept of the fey as an antagonistic element to the world, and some of my favourite fictions such as The Dresden Files or A Practical Guide to Evil feature the fey as a major player in the story. I've long wished I could run a campaign that features them prominently, but I'll freely admit my own intelligence simply isn't wired to properly come up with the twisty schemes fey are famous for. I tend to do much better with writing plots involving straightforward threats.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 02, 2021, 06:25:55 pm

The idea behind the elves is that when their curse matures they turn into horrible distorted monsters, or a natural disaster. Ranges from small things like a manticore or a house fire, up to dragons and major earthquakes. For the most part the actual role of their curse will be along the lines of 'human authorities suspect an elf has run away from it's people because it can't bring itself to die, and the community failed to force the situation. Go track the fleeing elf and deal with things,' though I do envision a race of humans who lost their homeland to an elf refusing to die and making the whole peninsula sink into the ocean. Physically they're similar to humans, except with pointy ears, eyes that go fully black as they age and a patch of raised red flesh that resembles a tentacled mass that slowly moves about their body over the decades. If they dress up heavily they can pass for human, which helps avoid people throwing rocks at them.

I like the idea of races that are worse than humans, but it isn't their fault, which is the premise behind the trolls. They're victims as a species, but no one is really able to help them because most people don't even know where to start so they get pushed away and continue to spiral downwards.

Gnomes are probably not going to be a thing, though something similar to them and fey in general might be a thing. I have an idea for a loose collection of deities called the Witch Gods, whose whole thing is being the gods of magic in a setting where magic is feared and distrusted. All magic knowledge can ultimately be traced back to one of them teaching someone the basics and that person then taking things from there, and some of them have really weird followers. Several are served by witch covens, warlock cabals, post-human hags, and some have creatures that serve only them. Fey will likely be reskinned and used as the eldritch servants of these gods, some transformed from humans, some transformed from animals, some from the same unnatural places as the Witch Gods themselves. So far I only really have one group of Witch God servants really fleshed out.

Spoiler: The Witch Folk, children of Prennos (click to show/hide)

The Witch Folk, as they are named by the fearful people of the empire, are a race of creatures that resemble humans, but with extended digitigrade legs, tough leathery skin and mismatched animal teeth crammed into a misshapen human mouth.

The Witch Folk do not speak save for bestial howls, grunts and brays, wear no clothing other than masks made of bark, branches and animal remains and live in the hollows of rotten trees, in caves or in animal burrows. Witch Folk have been confirmed to eat their food raw, and engage in cannibalistic rituals, eating the flesh of one another and of humans. They wield few tools other than sharpened rocks, sticks and bones.

They do not breed as other races do, instead they create more of their kind through stealing human babies. Smuggling kidnapped infants into the deep forests, the Witch Folk bring their victims to large sacklike structures made of animal skins strung between trees. These structures, called Witch Wombs by those who have made a business of culling the vile creatures, are stuffed with vast quantities of rancid offal and rotten animal flesh. Under the light of a full moon the Witch Folk place their stolen infants into the womb, which they then stitch shut. As dawn breaks the womb splits like an overripe fruit, spilling the newly transformed witch child upon the forest floor.

Despite the many disadvantages the Witch Folk have in outright combat they increase in number year after year, with great surges of their kind murdering entire villages in their beds and defiling the shrines and temples of the gods of man.

Behind the scenes, the Witch Folk are the descendants of a coven of witches who served Prennos, the god of the dark wood. The men and women who served Prennos used to be like any other group of humans, living in small settled communities practicing various rites in honour of their deity in exchange for various little boons. Eventually one of the races that would later become part of the Aurogentum Empire began to move into the region and engage in violent competition with the Prennosian cultists. The cultists lost, being forced to convert to their conquerers faith at swordpoint, with some fleeing into the woods to escape. Over several decades the population gradually came to accept the new status quo, which angered those who had dwelt in the woods and kept to their old ways, and the god Prennos.

Prennos' loyal followers gathered in the presence of their god in the deepest parts of the woods and engaged in a ritual to preserve themselves forever and enable them to reclaim what is theirs. The remaining cultists were transformed into the First Womb, a pulsating mass of living flesh growing like a tumour among the ancient trees of the forest, from which came the first Witch Folk. All Witch Folk contain a fragment of the collected minds of those last cultists, and if slain are reborn as adults from the First Womb upon the next full moon. As long as the foul seed that gave them life exists no Witch Folk can truly perish, so their numbers grow year after year.

The Witch Folk draw on the kidnapper elements of some fey, and a bit on races like the Beastmen from Warhammer. I'm also thinking of making bugbears a type of fairy like creature based on the folk song Long Lankin, which in some versions has the titular Lankin as basically a boogyman, but in other versions he was meant to be a leper who murdered a child to try and cure his disease with the babies' blood. I figure I'll mix the two ideas and make Bugbears a type of deformed spirit that pursue various macabre folk cures to try and heal themselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 24, 2021, 06:04:07 pm

Got more of my setting notes I want to bounce off people. This time focusing on gods and spirits.

To start with there's Yahg the Primordial and the demons.

Spoiler: Yahg and the demons (click to show/hide)

Yahg is essentially the unity that existed before anything else, is male and female, dead and alive, so on and so forth. Mostly forgotten by mortals, or never learned of by mortals, which is probably a more accurate statement. Yahg was murdered at the dawn of creation by the beings who came to be the creator gods, such as Astarte, Gann and Caer-Dunn. Where these gods came from is unknown, their own faiths teach that they have always been and formed the world from various things that existed in the void of pre-creation.

In truth the gods flayed Yahg to the metaphysical bones, and shaped all that is from the scraps of being they had torn from it's body. All animals, plants, people, even the very ground and sky were fashioned from Yahg's flesh and blood and live only because they bear a portion of Yahg's perpetual life. The gods doted on their new creations for untold ages in the time before time, leaving the flayed remains of Yahg and the scraps of unused flesh to drift in the void.

But the pieces of Yahg lived, and they yearned, and they envied and they shaped themselves into echoes of the creations of the gods. Stumbling on newborn legs, mewling with infant voices, these beings whose creation was unasked for approached the gods and tried to bask in their radiance. The gods looked upon these beings with disgust and contempt, for they were twisted parodies of their creations in their eyes. So the gods cast them back into the void, where these beings, the demons found the corpse of Yahg that they had overlooked, and came to understand creation.

The demons, sorrowful at the gods rejection, turned to their kin for comfort. 'If we cannot be with the gods, we shall be with the other beings born of Yahg's flesh,' they cried. And so they walked among the creations of the gods, and they taught them of Yahg and their common heritage and creation began to question the will of the gods.

In fury and rage the gods cast the demons to the void once more, sealing them in the beyond with the light of all the stars in the sky. Still burning with anger the gods turned to their creations, who had embraced the demons as kin, and cursed them with mortality so that they would wither and die and forget what they had learned of their origins.


Now Yahg is little more than a memory, thought of as an obscure god of demons by even the most learned occultists. But the gods have grown silent, though the priests may deny it, and the demons return as the stars fade, whispering of the truth and of their intentions for all of creation.

Spoiler: More details on demons (click to show/hide)

The demons are divided into three rough categories, Yahghannic Demons who seek to return everything to being part of Yahg and thus be whole again, Erosian Demons who seek to enter the mortal world and be together with mortalkind for all of time and thus be whole but still separate, and the Angels, demons who never stopped loving the gods no matter how much the gods cast them aside.

Yahghannic Demons are simple creatures, seeking the mutual destruction of all things so that Yahg can once again be unitary and whole. They approach mortals with nihilistic teachings, endorse actions that will provoke conflict and undermine the churches of the creator gods who flayed Yahg.

Erosian Demons love mortals. Not healthy, beautiful love, more creepy stalker love. The kind of love which ends with someone wearing another person's skin. To the demons, who are truly immortal, this is not an unhealthy thing. When a demon says it wants to crawl inside you, to be one with you it means this genuinely, and if there is a way to be together forever without killing you it would even prefer to do things that way, but they are desperate, impassioned and impatient. Erosian Demons don't understand the curse of mortality which mortals are afflicted with, and so their actions are truly horrifying. They will tear the unborn from the womb so they can hold it now, fight over mortals until they accidently tear them apart, literally try to crawl down someone's throat and wear them like a skinsuit so they can see through the mortal's eyes. To them this is harmless, but to mortals it is obviously horrifying.

Angels are obsessed with the gods. They understand that the gods did not, indeed could not love them as they were. They see themselves as foul mockeries of the god's creations. And they want to change that. They think if they change the gods will finally love them as they love the mortals. To this end the angels flay their skin, break and reset their bones, pull fangs from their bleeding mouths, sever their wings, bind their immortal flesh with fabric, leather and metal and force themselves into a form they think the gods will like. Most angels have no visible flesh, their teeth and nails are fashioned from metal, ceramic or polished stone and inserted into the sockets where they pulled out their talons, their mutilated bodies concealed under wonderous armour and robes. Often heated metal was pressed into the bare flesh left after scaled or leathery hide was ripped from their limbs, permanently forcing them into their new forms.

Spoiler: The Creator Gods (click to show/hide)

Even the demons don't know where the gods came from, not that many people ask them. The creator gods are a loose group of deities who are all attributed with the creation of the world. Most of their creeds claim that only one god is the real creator, and that even the other gods are their creations or are demons masquerading as deities. The specifics of their faiths vary, more so now than ever as no true prophets have been born for nearly a thousand years, leaving the faiths to diverge from their origins and grow corrupt and obsessed with temporal power and political bickering. The most important to my ideas are Astarte, Gann and Caer-Dunn

Astarte, the Immaculate Lady of the Heavens, is the god of the Aurogentum Empire. While her worship is not unique to the empire it is the state religion, with many other faiths being forbidden, depending more on the practicality of banning them than any moral concerns. Astarte is venerated primarily through the worship of her saints, who may be as numerous as the stars in the sky. A truly accurate census of the saints revered in the empire is nearly impossible, as almost every town attributes their founding to a saint, various locations are associated with saints, nobles, merchants, guilds knightly orders, mercenaries, temples of a thousand deviant forms all claim a saint as part of their heritage. The most consistent rule of the Astartian faith is that most magic is forbidden, an edict often flouted by all manner of authorities, including the clergy, with various justifications. She is considered to be responsible for keeping the demons sealed in the void with starlight.

Gann the Potter, supposedly fashioned all that is from river clay according to the tales of the Great Dwarven races. Gann is generally worshipped as a deity of racial superiority, most iterations of his faith depicting the other races as being made to be servants or tests of some kind for the Great Dwarves. Commonly his faith preaches a measure of isolationism, declaring that other than slaves the Great Dwarves should have minimal contact with other peoples. Every now and then a truly extremist faction will gather political support in the dwarven homelands and attempt to purge the populace of percieved impurities, such as non-majority dwarves for instance. Diplomats from the Great Dwarven nations often encourage their trade partners and political allies to oppress or cast out populations of refugees from the other dwarven races.

Caer-Dunn, the dualistic god of the Val. Caer and Dunn are depicted as two entities who are inextricably linked and interchangeable. Together they represent the beginning and the end, birth and death, the wellspring of a river and the mouth where it flows to the sea. Cycles and sequences. In Valland Caer-Dunn is a largely decentralised religion, with the head of the faith technically being an individual called the King in the River, though they are rarely seen and considered somewhat mystical by their own followers. After the Aurogentum Empire occupied Southern Valland the status of the current King in the River is unknown. The Vallic interpretation of Caer-Dunn is revered in a number of ways, most involving the use of circular designs or the repurposing of old things. Newborn babies are often named after people who recently died in their community, trees are planted atop burial mounds and cairns, and pregnant or young animals or animals with young are not to be killed. The faith of Caer-Dunn is forbidden in Occupied Valland, though enforcement of this policy is spotty.

Spoiler: The Witch Gods (click to show/hide)

Enigmatic entities that arrived after creation, and taught all magic to mortals. They dwell in remote locations, deep forests, mountain peaks, large lakes, stretches of the ocean. Unlike the other deific beings the Witch Gods have actual physical bodies, though few have seen them. Those who have stood in their presence describe them as an overwhelming weight upon the mind, an irresistable desire to show obesiance to the god surging into the minds of mortals. All magical spells invoke the name of at least one Witch God, depending on the nature of the magic., though one does not need to worship one to learn the magic it first taught if another mortal is willing to pass the knowledge on.

The Witch Gods are mostly considered malevolent, their cults often practice human sacrifice as part of arcane rituals to earn the favour of their gods. Even so some of the cults and covens have found their way into accepted positions of various societies, practicing the unsavory parts of their creed in private while selling their services as sorcerers to the society they dwell amongst. Many kings will turn a blind eye to the loss of a few vagrants every full moon in exchange for someone who an call fire from the sky assisting their armies.

Mortals are not the only beings found in service to the Witch Gods, various eldritch beings heed the call of the gods. Undead, spirits of the woods and nightmares, shapeshifters and other abominations all find a home amidst the gatherings of mortal cultists.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 26, 2021, 07:22:14 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on June 24, 2021, 06:04:07 pm

Got more of my setting notes I want to bounce off people. This time focusing on gods and spirits.

To start with there's Yahg the Primordial and the demons.

Two demon mothers were squabbling over a human child, when they were brought before the demon Yaghannic King.
'What is the problem?' The Demon King asked.
'The child is mine, but she has claimed it too!' One demon said.
'No, the child is mine, but she has claimed it too!' The other demon said.
The demon Yaghannic King had a clever plan. He would suggest splitting the child in half and dividing it equally between them; the mother that accepted this proposal was not the mother, the one that rejected it was.
'I suggest we split the child in half, so that you may each both claim one half.'
'Yes!' Said one.
'Yes! Said the other.
The demon Yaghannic King concluded then that he did not understand Erosian demons very well at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 26, 2021, 10:18:30 am

I really like the concept of the Witch Gods. The other stuff is good too but especially those.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 27, 2021, 05:24:18 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 26, 2021, 10:18:30 am

I really like the concept of the Witch Gods. The other stuff is good too but especially those.

I wonder if you could find some community where they aren't considered malevolent and people practice socially sanctioned or even endorsed sacrifice. Whether sacrifice of enemies/slaves like the Aztecs or voluntary matyrdom sacrifice like the Roman Christians

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 27, 2021, 06:04:15 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on June 27, 2021, 05:24:18 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 26, 2021, 10:18:30 am

I really like the concept of the Witch Gods. The other stuff is good too but especially those.

I wonder if you could find some community where they aren't considered malevolent and people practice socially sanctioned or even endorsed sacrifice. Whether sacrifice of enemies/slaves like the Aztecs or voluntary matyrdom sacrifice like the Roman Christians

Funnily enough my plan is for the Dwarves of the Black Lands that I mentioned back when discussing the dwarves to worship a collection of the Witch Gods who collectively taught magic related to magical defense, warding, travel and other things helpful for surviving the time they spent in a volcanic wasteland before their lands recovered. The other dwarves view these gods as bad, but to the BL Dwarves they are literally their saviours. Some of these gods like human (or dwarven) sacrifice, some are more chill, but the BL Dwarves have a culture that embraces them happily and has done so for a long time, especially now that their lands are fertile and lush again after being fertilized with copious amounts of volcanic ash and having centuries to recover.


If I ever get around to fleshing out the bits of the Aurogentum Empire I don't plan to use much I do have vague ideas that some Witch Gods are sanctioned as minor provincial faiths. If a culture worshipped one or more Witch Gods and then got conquered and became a potentially powerful province it wasn't necessarily possible to stamp out their religion, so some of the stronger ones just got given legal sanction. The imperial rationale given to the witch hunters, army and state church is that it's clearly not a Witch God that the new province worship, because if it was a Witch God we'd have vanquished this perfidious cult.


I do have some thoughts that the King in the River, leader of the Vallic religion is actually an angel who reveres Caer-Dunn over any other creator god, and that some factions of the faith of Caer-Dunn in Valland incorporate some of the more chill Witch Gods, shapeshifting, healing and nature magic oriented ones, because the faith considers some of them to be powerful servants of Caer-Dunn. So some Vallic subcultures have werewolf cults and nature wizards and so on among them, and some of them just know some magic because their faith doesn't demonise the knowledge the Witch Gods taught.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 30, 2021, 07:15:57 am

Sounds absolutely D R U I D I C

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 03, 2021, 10:00:34 am

So continuing on from my last post, I figure I might as well put my ideas for specific Witch Gods down in writing, starting with the triumvirate that are the chief gods of the Black Lands Dwarves. The gods all have physical bodies, for a given value of physical, but they aren't always found in the same place even if they shouldn't be capable of moving, nor do they extend out of the particular location they've chosen to be in even if that is contradictory with how they look from inside the location. Easiest way to think of it is that they all have a bubble of reality that conforms to their nature around them which blends more or less seamlessly with the natural world.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Chamos the Keeper of Gates, a god who bestows knowledge of abjuration magic to it's followers. Chamos is described by those who have seen it in visions or in person as a wall of infinite length and height, made of raw flesh and bone. The surface of the wall is pitted and scarred as if by siege weapons and bestial claws, and is studded with arrows and spears.

Chamos' worshippers honour their deity through the sacrifice of their own blood, both through cutting their hands and rubbing the blood that flows forth upon their doors and gates, and through self flagellation with whips and flails. The communities of the Dwarves of the Black Lands sacrifice a volunteer, usually an elderly dwarf or a young child, from among their own kind to Chamos once every six years, the volunteer being ritually flayed and their skin dried and stretched upon the fortified walls of their settlement.

Kalok the Lord of the Unseen Paths, who bestows knowledge of magic that enables quick travel overland. Teleportation, faster movement and magical steeds for example. Kalok possess the body of a horse, but rising from the space where a rider would sit is a headless humanoid torso growing from the back of the horse, the arms of the torso are snakes that curve together above the stump of the neck, pressing the tops of their heads together and serving as the head of Kalok.

Kalok is honoured through the sacrifice of beasts of burden, and the ritual killing of bandits, highwaymen and others who prey upon travellers. Sacrifices are pressed to death, placed under a board of wood upon which stones are then placed until they are crushed. More stones are piled upon the sacrifice to form a cairn, which is then left as a road marker.

Kalok is associated with various creatures that have the body of an animal and the head or torso of a humanoid, such as centaurs, sphinxes and armanites.

Rahm the Fecund Stream, who bestows magic that encourages the growth of plants, heals living things and provides food and fertility. Rahm is physically repulsive to look upon, a being composed of a shifting mix of various reproductive organs, which can best be described as a multitude of vaginal cornucopias and phallic growths. Generally Rahm appears spread out upon a table that is an extension of it's own flesh, with various orifices filled with fruits and vegetables positioned like serving platters upon the table, while more phallic pieces of it's anatomy are 'sat' in various seats around the tablel, at the table's head sits Rahm's torso, a featureless androgyne thing in vaguely humanoid form.

Rahm is primarily worshipped through feasts and orgies, as well as various symbolic and unsanitary forms of sacrifice that I don't want to think about too much.

Rahm is associated with various sapient plant creatures, plant/animal hybrid creatures and with creatures that breed rapidly.

Now for some more random ones.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Laikis, Madew and Illianoc the Three Headed, a god of shapeshifters, healing magic, poison and regneration. The Three appear as female human heads that emerge from holes and crevices upon long prehensile necks, with seemingly no need for the holes to connect to a single point from which they can emerge. They have long thin tongues that drip with acidic saliva and their braided hair moves like a nest of vipers.

The Three are the patrons of many covens of witches, clans of shapeshifters and regenerative monsters, who worship them through the sacrifice of animals and humanoids. Sacrifices are hung by the neck in groups of three until dead, and each body is then decapitated and placed in a hole, such as a grave, rotten log, natural cave or a well. No two bodies are ever placed in the same hole. The severed heads are rendered into various alchemical ingredients, the brain, skull, teeth, fat, skin, eyes and hair all having properties that are useful for the tinctures and balms of the cultists.

The Three are associated with creatures such as hydras and chimerae.

Eesen the Voice on the Wind, bestower of magic that allows flight, long distance communication and rapid travel. Eesen's physical form is that of a skinned, bloody human face floating upon a breeze or being billowed about by a gale. Flocks of birds and swirls of dust, snow, rain or leaves follow it's manifestation as appropriate to the environment. Despite having no eyes or tongue Eesen is able to see and speak with those in it's presence.

Eesen's cultists are generally people who have a need for covert communications and travel, corrupt officials, scheming nobles, smugglers, thieves and murderers. The magic taught by Eesen is commonly sanctioned for it's value to both secular and spiritual organisations but those who actually worship the god tend to fall outside the ranks of those who are sanctioned to learn and practice magic. Eesen is worshipped clandestinely, and demands human sacrifice in exchange for knowledge. Sacrifices are strangled, smothered or have their throats cut, and are then left to be consumed by carrion birds and other wild animals.

Eesen is associated with various monsters of the air.

Pashtar, Mollud and Berros, the Lords of Destruction, patrons of destructive magic. Pashtar, Mollud and Berros each teaches the knowledge of a few elements of magic used to burn, electrocute, crush, freeze, disintegrate or otherwise kill living beings and destroy objects. Each manifests as a humanoid form that has been killed by their respective magics, Pashtar appears as a corpse that has been burned, frozen or rotted from within, Mollud as a corpse impaled on a spike, buried alive or crushed, Berros as a moving shadow framed in light or a cloud of ash and dust in humanoid form.

Often worshipped together by cabals of warlocks and witches who seek to learn all possible methods by which they can magically destroy their enemies, as well as individually by those with a more specialist inclination, the cults of Pashtar, Mollud and Berros are fundamentally similar. All three are worshipped in places that resonate with the energies they teach their followers to conjure, all three demand frequent human sacrifice and all three view the societies of mortal kind as stifling and weak, encouraging their cultists to use their powers to crush armies, burn cities and strike down kings and priests.

Prennos the god of the Dark Woods, who teaches magic involving shapeshifting, darkness, the growth of plants and communication with beasts. Physically a tall humanoid with a body of wood and bark, with thorny vines for fingers, the skull of a great horned beast for a head and a writhing mass of slugs, beetles and centipedes for eyes and a tongue. Prennos appears in temperate and arctic forests in various lands.

Prennos is mostly worshipped by his creations, the Witch Folk, by werewolves, wargs, and by witch covens who dwell in forests on the edge of civilisation. Prennos urges his followers to tear down the works of man, to raze cities and towns to the ground, to hunt men as men hunt deer, to engage in cannibalism and to snuff out the worship of other gods. Prennos is one of the most bloodthirsty witch gods, rewarding his servants if they can sacrifice a human life every full moon.

Wound up writing more than I planned to, so I've put them in spoilers. Weirdly I find it much easier to write setting stuff when writing it to people than I do when writing it for my own notes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 06, 2021, 01:29:29 pm

You're probably one of the personality types that really enjoys corresponding with others as a kind of "drawing board." I certainly enjoy coming up with new ideas by throwing them at other people and seeing what they notice or respond with

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 10, 2021, 01:34:46 pm

Stupid idea, which has almost certainly been done before: Boblins.

They're like any other goblins, but they all have the same name and face. Men, women, children, babies and the elderly. All Bob.

The Boblins don't see anything strange about this, they all recognise each other fine despite sharing names and faces and find it odd that other people can't tell them apart easily. When asked why they're called Bob they give banal answers like 'well I'm named after my granddad, Bob.' When asked why they're all called Bob they just chalk it up as a funny coincidence. When asked where they came from they give the same origin story as any normal group of Goblins would.

Goblins are no better at telling Boblins apart than any other creature is. When a Boblin and a Goblin have children, the resulting babies inherit the Bob-face and grow to favour the name Bob. In essence, they become indistinguishable from a Boblin born to a community of their own kind. Over sufficient time this causes entire tribes to become Boblins unless they, incredibly frustrated by the whole affair, decide to murder all the Boblins among them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 10, 2021, 02:40:44 pm

What's the opposite of Dungeons & Dragons? "Friendly environment and Even Enemy?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 10, 2021, 03:16:03 pm

Quote from: Novel Scoops on July 10, 2021, 02:40:44 pm

What's the opposite of Dungeons & Dragons? "Friendly environment and Even Enemy?"

Offices and Paperwork

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 10, 2021, 01:34:46 pm

Stupid idea, which has almost certainly been done before: Boblins.

Could do a pokemon running gag and have all taverns be run by an extended family of identical bobs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 10, 2021, 05:38:44 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on July 10, 2021, 03:16:03 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 10, 2021, 01:34:46 pm

Stupid idea, which has almost certainly been done before: Boblins.

Could do a pokemon running gag and have all taverns be run by an extended family of identical bobs.

I think the entire world would burn down the taverns rather than deal with a population of Boblins anywhere near them.

I imagine boblins, being really annoying for non-boblins to communicate with, are mostly found in the standard sort of stone-age hunter gatherer camp type settlements out in the deep wilderness, having been driven away by settled races for being goblins, and then being driven even further away by other goblins for being boblins.


EDIT: On a more serious note, I have an idea for an alternate magic item system that I need to flesh out, but I'd like to bounce the basic idea off people here.

So the gist of the idea is that all magic items must incorporate items with attuned or associated with magic, with the type of objects added determining what powers the item can have. I'm thinking all items get 3 slots, and different ingredients attune the item to one or more lists of powers the item can have. Some powers are limited to items with 2 or 3 attunements of the same type. So you can make a sword with lvl1 water, fire and poison powers, or you can make a sword with lvl1 water and fire powers, and a lvl2 fire power, or a weapon with a lvl1,2 and 3 fire power. Higher level powers would probably be quirky more than outright powerful in a bigger numbers sense.

For the ingredients themselves I'm thinking various monster parts like manticore tails or dragon's teeth, items you'd see in folkloric magic like teeth and nails and hanging rope, stuff associated with higher grade mythical stuff like blood iron, meteorite iron, the shadow of a mountain and so on.


So for a specific weapon idea, a bow made of wood from a tree that grows in a graveyard, with the hair of a murdered man's widow and the fibres of a rope used for hanging someone spun into the bowstring. The resulting item would be attuned to Death magic, with powers drawn from options to do with fighting the undead, slaying mortals, animating the dead, so on and so forth.

Alternatively, a sword made from iron taken from smelted church icons, quenched in holy water and with a sapphire set into the hilt would draw on water and holy themed magic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kassire on July 12, 2021, 09:46:13 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 10, 2021, 05:38:44 pm

On a more serious note, I have an idea for an alternate magic item system that I need to flesh out, but I'd like to bounce the basic idea off people here.

So the gist of the idea is that all magic items must incorporate items with attuned or associated with magic, with the type of objects added determining what powers the item can have. I'm thinking all items get 3 slots, and different ingredients attune the item to one or more lists of powers the item can have. Some powers are limited to items with 2 or 3 attunements of the same type. So you can make a sword with lvl1 water, fire and poison powers, or you can make a sword with lvl1 water and fire powers, and a lvl2 fire power, or a weapon with a lvl1,2 and 3 fire power. Higher level powers would probably be quirky more than outright powerful in a bigger numbers sense.

For the ingredients themselves I'm thinking various monster parts like manticore tails or dragon's teeth, items you'd see in folkloric magic like teeth and nails and hanging rope, stuff associated with higher grade mythical stuff like blood iron, meteorite iron, the shadow of a mountain and so on.


So for a specific weapon idea, a bow made of wood from a tree that grows in a graveyard, with the hair of a murdered man's widow and the fibres of a rope used for hanging someone spun into the bowstring. The resulting item would be attuned to Death magic, with powers drawn from options to do with fighting the undead, slaying mortals, animating the dead, so on and so forth.

Alternatively, a sword made from iron taken from smelted church icons, quenched in holy water and with a sapphire set into the hilt would draw on water and holy themed magic.

I've just looked over the posts you've made for your setting, and I rather liked them. Your approach to avoiding DnD tropes does remind me of Glorantha. The ritual suicide of Elves is kinda like a worse version of Dragonnewts.

Though if all magic stems from the Witch Gods, it would be fitting that the creation of magical artifacts and items would stem from their rituals and practices. Like a Quest-based system for making magical items, where a bow of death magic requires one to perform some service such as returning a rogue banshee to the servitude of a Witch God, who would pluck a hair of the banshee and use it as the bowstring. Or a holy sword needing to be blessed by a hallowed spring that has been defiled, and you must hunt down the perpetrators to restore it and bless the sword. A concern of mine with getting miscellaneous items to craft a magic item would be taking the players out of the setting and then collecting/hoarding whatever odd crap to craft magic items. But I suppose that depends on the players and you, who might find it engaging to experiment with that stuff. Or maybe there could be something more to the process of crafting, like treating the wood of the death bow in the blood of an elder troll after you assemble all the magic parts. Then maybe how the Troll was killed or the blood was acquired could influence the exact effect of the item (a stealthy assassination might give it powers during the night or in the shadows).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 12, 2021, 01:22:39 pm

I was thinking I might go down the route that not all attempts to make a magic item work, or at least not properly, when made by mortals. Items can turn out only slightly magical, or entirely unmagical, with the quality of the materials used and the skills of the craftsman having an effect on if you get a mere +1 generic item, or an item worthy of fame and reknown.

Various eldritch beings and some demons would be able to make things using their own uncanny nature, so a demon can make items infused with their non-mortal essence, and the Witch Gods and their more powerful servants can make things with their eldritch essence. Would need to sit and work out what Demonic and Eldritch item powers would look like. I'm thinking that 3 levels of 5 powers each should be plenty of options for stuff, but actually sitting down and working out powers and then doing the math to balance them will be a bit of a chore. Especially since some damage types are way better than others, so a poison/disease powerset will need a lot of stuff to make it useful compared to a necrotic or radiant themed one.





On a similar note to conventional magic items, I plan to incorporate rules for flesh-grafting and flesh-crafting, the former being the addition of new parts to living creatures, the latter being the fusion of multiple organic beings into one creature. The 'forbidden art' has no clear origin, but is generally believed to have come from ancient worshippers of the Witch Gods who blasphemed against their own deities by cavorting with demons and combining the dark knowledge of each in a perverse form of magic and surgery. Both practices of the art are illegal among almost all societies with specific exemptions, due to the often horrifying nature of the process. Basic prerequisites in 5e would be proficiency in Medicine, Arcana, Alchemist's Supplies, and/or a copy of some instructional text, preferably all four.

Flesh-grafts are used as emergency life saving procedures, to replace missing body parts or to augment soldiers by morally dubious lords. Grafts often fail, the attached or inserted flesh being rejected by the host and rotting inside them, usually leading to death by sepsis. When it works it can do great good, but more often wreaks horror. Grafters are back alley surgeons, often doctors driven to desperation by the loss of patients or academics with a morbid fascination with the forbidden art. Such practicioners are often lax in proper medical or magical practices, the grafter has little to lose and the patient is usually in dire need of any possible help and will overlook dirty instruments or dubious locations of business. Successful grafters have generally perfected their art by leaving a trail of mutilated corpses in their wake as they evade the law, usually eventually finding a powerful patron to serve in secret or finding a place among outlaws and the dregs of society.

Inspired by the Slith from Grim Dawn, flesh-crafting works best on young specimens. Mature subjects more often reject the melding of their flesh with another, and subjects composed solely of animal tissue struggle to adapt to their new anatomy. As such the few secretive practicitioners who have found copies of the fragmentary documents that detailed the creation of the first trolls turned to the use of humanoid children and young animals, a process far more likely to succeed in a successful melding. Fleshcrafted beings are almost always beastmen, perverse combinations of human and animal anatomy, with stunted mental development and chronic pain and health conditions. These unfortunate beings are occasionally able to breed true, becoming a self-propogating race of misshapen and miserable creatures. Save the creator of the orcs and goblins no one has ever managed to imitate the pinnacle of the flesh-crafter's art, the trolls, for the faiths of various gods deemed flesh-crafting an abominable act of heresy and sought to scour the knowledge of it from existence. Fragmentary texts, poorly transcribed and poorly translated are the only documents that detail the original practice in any measure, though some flesh-crafters have written their own treatises to be disseminated through the lands to try and advance the collective talents of the various individuals, cabals and clandestine colleges that practice the art.

Spoiler: The perfection of the trolls (click to show/hide)

The lost secret that made trolls as successful as they are, even with their flaws, is that they were melded with beasts before they were even born. The ancient sorcerer who made them vivisected pregnant humans and animals and melded the desired traits of their unborn offspring together. After years of perfecting this particular practice, the mage was able to turn the unborn into the first trolls, giant men and women with the strength and durability of oxen and elephants, but the intellect of men. The race was able to breed true, and outlived their creator but fell from glory as the defects that they inherited from even this perfected process took their toll on subsequent generations.

Suspected by some flesh-crafters but not generally accepted, the halflings were created through the same process, though even the most thorough dissection fails to find any obvious signs of the diminutive creatures being made this way.

Flesh-crafters are accepted only in a few places, and only within certain limits of their craft. Various faiths have adopted the use of specific strains of beastmen as temple-soldiers, generally ones that incorporate animals associated with their god. The populations of these clerical guardians is kept extremely limited, and the means of their production a closely guarded secret. Pre-pubescent aspirants are selected to be initiated into their ranks, leaving their families behind to reappear years later as beastmen indoctrinated to serve the needs of the clergy.

A rare few nobles have made use of flesh-crafted races in their armies, using more monstrous specimens as living siege weapons or instruments of terror. These nobles are often difficult to topple, the power of even a few minotaurs or similar beasts attached to a regular force being more than capable of routing an enemy army, but inevitably most such lords perish. Witch hunters, holy warriors, assassins, military alliances or even their own beasts seeing them die in their bed, in a feast hall or in the ruins of their castle.



As the players will be Witch Hunters, my thought is that they are to some extent above the law as long as they continue to fulfill their duties. No one person is easily able to punish them if they decide to replace their eyes with those of a cat, or have gills added to their armpits, or make a homunculus out of a dwarven orphan and a badger, much as no one can stop them from worshipping a Witch God, dealing with demons or using forbidden magic, provided they do so reasonably discretely. Other Witch Hunters could try to kill them of course, but doing so with official sanction would require a trial and that means getting enough hunters who care about what's going on together to be the jury and the witnesses of the trial. In theory the highest ranking hunters could strip them of authority and condemn them, but most of them are far away and more than a few are prone to using the darker arts themselves.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 14, 2021, 04:39:50 pm

I was playing a Fallout-like game, and remembered Earthdawn (the major influence on Fallout).

The history of the world involves magically-protected caves, domes, or otherwise sealed towns/cities. For 400+ years. What are you going to do with all of the people who die over the course of 400 years when you have limited space?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: ijub on August 18, 2021, 10:49:41 am

I was thinking up some character ideas for 5e and i thought of making a Variant Human Blood Hunter character designed specifically for fighting spellcasters after the Sorcerer in our party decided "I'm sorry my son" and vaporized my Goblin Rouge, do any of you all have any ideas on how i could make him able to combat most spellcasters?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 18, 2021, 12:16:13 pm

In yesterday's session, we were getting rushed by a horde of zombies trying to push their way out through the gates of a tower.

An, as it happened, 20" diameter on the inside tower

And I had a scroll of Fireball

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 18, 2021, 03:57:44 pm

Quote from: ijub on August 18, 2021, 10:49:41 am

I was thinking up some character ideas for 5e and i thought of making a Variant Human Blood Hunter character designed specifically for fighting spellcasters after the Sorcerer in our party decided "I'm sorry my son" and vaporized my Goblin Rouge, do any of you all have any ideas on how i could make him able to combat most spellcasters?

The Mercer homebrew thing, right? Don't really know much of the specifics there, but presumably you're taking variant so you can grab an early Mage Slayer feat. Seems like an obvious pick.

I notice Blood Hunters don't have Wis save proficiency, which will probably hurt quite a bit considering how many spells target that. Resilient might be an idea to pump that up a bit just so you don't get invalidated immediately.

Honestly? My personal pick for a wizard-killer would probably be a paladin of some sort, just for those incredibly juicy saves. Also a gnome, because advantage on mental saves vs. magic is just incredible (conflicts with Mage Slayer though, so might be preferable if you'd rather keep your distance).


In other news, I've just gotten a very sudden invite into a campaign with some friends, and after a bit of poking to find out that most of the other players are either full or partial casters, I've opted to cook up a mundane character to mix things up a bit. I'm leaning towards DEX, some kind of rakish mercenary (honestly, I'm mostly being inspired by Serka from the Shadow of War DLC), and from the sound of things a front-liner would be appreciated. I'm a little torn between Battle Master and Swashbuckler. Swashy has a lot of skill and esoteric benefits that I'm digging, but I'm worried about the balance between offense and survivability if I'm going to be taking heat.

Character's gonna be level 5. Briefly considered taking a GWM-PAM Barbarian, but I mean... Gotta leave something for the other players :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on August 26, 2021, 07:56:58 am

Nerds.

https://dnd.wizards.com/nerds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 26, 2021, 08:01:01 am

why has money done this

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 26, 2021, 10:35:12 am

Is this some kind if weird door fetishist thing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on August 27, 2021, 02:11:34 am

Quote from: scriver on August 26, 2021, 10:35:12 am

Is this some kind if weird door fetishist thing

?



Also why D&D nerds that seems so random.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 27, 2021, 03:32:06 am

I got

Quote from: Kagus on August 18, 2021, 03:57:44 pm

Gotta leave something for the other players :P

Had a fun time! I did precisely 0 damage and almost died!

Admittedly, tiny cramped tunnels where everyone's bunched up around each other isn't necessarily the most optimal stage for a swashbuckler, even an actually optimized one, but hey. Luckily we had a Cleric with Spirit Guardians and a Spore Druid who didn't know that their Halo of Spores ability requires a reaction to actually do damage to something.

The point-blank fireball from our bladesinger was also interesting, and part of the reason for my untimely nap.


In other news, I realized that a gnomish barbarian has advantage on 5/6 saving throws against spells they can see while raging (and proficiency in the one without advantage). Moustache of antimagic indeed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 27, 2021, 06:55:49 am

Quote from: King Zultan on August 27, 2021, 02:11:34 am

Quote from: scriver on August 26, 2021, 10:35:12 am

Is this some kind if weird door fetishist thing

?

Autocorrupt changed my attempt to write foot to door ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 30, 2021, 11:30:55 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 27, 2021, 03:32:06 am

In other news, I realized that a gnomish barbarian has advantage on 5/6 saving throws against spells they can see while raging (and proficiency in the one without advantage). Moustache of antimagic indeed.

Up there with Yuan-Ti Paladin for "dear god why"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 30, 2021, 09:46:24 pm

I am currently ruminating on a horror one shot idea.

Core premise is that some people, including children, have gone missing from a nunnery, the orphanage attached to the nunnery and the nearby villages that donate food and other supplies to the nuns, local authority is busy with other matters and therefore deputises the PCs and sends them to deal with what they assume to be wild animals or a serial killer.

What's actually happened though is that several residents of the nunnery and orphanage are concealing severe sorrows, loneliness, regret, guilt and so on, which has served as a beacon to Sorrowsworn who are now preying upon the people of the area.


Ideas for specific beacons I have so far;

Mother Superior Annalise, an extremely elderly nun and the leader of the convent. She harbours a lot of guilt over many people she feels she failed over the years, most significantly many victims of a plague who she euthanized in her younger years in order to minimise their suffering. She keeps a length of string with a knot tied in it for every person she killed during her time as a nurse in a wooden box in her nightstand. Her many regrets have attracted the Wretched.

Sister Marianne, a middle aged nun. She has never managed to let go of a lost love from her youth, a fleeting childish romance that ended in heartbreak. She keeps letters and a locket from her old beau, hidden under a loose floorboard her cell. Among others, she has attracted the Lonely.

Eadric, an orphaned child in the care of the nuns. Eadric was abandoned by his parents and hasn't managed to come to terms with it. He's angry, angry at his parents for leaving him, at the nuns for making him stay at the orphanage, at rules, at life, at the gods, but most importantly, angry at himself. He feels he must have done something wrong, that it was his fault he was abandoned. His self-loathing and emotional outbursts have attracted the Angry.

Sigeburg, a farmer's child from the nearby villages. Sigeburg was close friends with one of the missing children, the first to dissapear in fact. In truth the child fell in an old mineshaft and died while out playing with Sigeburg and some of the other children. Frightened of getting into trouble the children lied, claiming to have no idea what happene to their missing friend. Each child that had been with Sigeburg that day is now gone. Taken by the Lost.

Cedric, a halfling from one of the villages. Cedric is the abused and rejected member of his family. Suffering from a mental disability that his family wasn't able to cope with, Cedric has spent most of his life locked in a spare room by his kin. Fed barely enough to keep him alive, beaten into passivity and quiet by the family that wants to forget he exists. Cedric's suffering has drawn the attention of the Hungry, but so great is his suffering that all Sorrowsworn are drawn to him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 31, 2021, 05:31:12 am

Sister Marianne Godwinson... We must dissent

I also like the idea of a demon hunter who keeps attracting Angry Demons to themself in a self-perpetuating cycle. Literally making, confronting and perpetuating their own demons

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 07, 2021, 02:46:01 pm

Important question: When using the Order of Scribes ability to change a spell's damage type in order to cast Magic Missile with bludgeoning damage, is it more appropriate to call it Magic Mace-ile or Mace-ic Missile?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on September 07, 2021, 02:47:30 pm

Why not Mace-ic Mace-ile?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 07, 2021, 05:24:27 pm

Quote from: Kagus on September 07, 2021, 02:46:01 pm

Important question: When using the Order of Scribes ability to change a spell's damage type in order to cast Magic Missile with bludgeoning damage, is it more appropriate to call it Magic Mace-ile or Mace-ic Missile?

I CAST FIST

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on September 07, 2021, 06:00:16 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on September 07, 2021, 05:24:27 pm

Quote from: Kagus on September 07, 2021, 02:46:01 pm

Important question: When using the Order of Scribes ability to change a spell's damage type in order to cast Magic Missile with bludgeoning damage, is it more appropriate to call it Magic Mace-ile or Mace-ic Missile?

I CAST FIST

This is the clear winner. Maybe call it multi-fist, but there's something about an unavoidable barrage of telekinetic punches that really brings a smile to my face.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 07, 2021, 06:47:25 pm

Good point...  "I CAST FISTS" fixed it

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 07, 2021, 06:57:45 pm

Especially appropriate because one good use of magic missile is to hit an enemy magic user with a bunch of concentration checks. Just slap em with your magic fists until they forget what they were doing!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on September 10, 2021, 04:39:54 pm

I am contemplating joining a local group, which includes a co-worker.  This is the first group in meatspace I have encountered.

I have floated the idea for a comically silly character, for the maximum chaos it will cause, and gotten a warm reception to the concept, but have been asked for an implementation of the concept.
(Specifically, I want to play as a misfit artificer, who by all rights and reason, should not be an artificer, but due to socio-political reasons and guild culture, MUST BE. )

I have made a simple write-up with the following suggested house-rules amended to the RAW for the 3.5e Artificer package found in the Eberron campaign setting splatbook:

Use of the Spell Storage Item infusion is doubled, (Each use counts as normal, and counts against your infusion number for the day. However, after that is depleted, you get an additional "bonus" (ahem) set of uses of this infusion...)  with caveats:

Using the "Bonus Infusions" for Spell Storage Item, results in 100% chance of the spell effect so stored having a deleterious effect added to it. Additionally, the first half of these bonus infusions produce results 1/2 the intended CL when possible, and produce "in line with intent, but not in form" effects if the resulting CL is insufficient for the effect when reduced to that new level. (EG, a fireball spell might not actually form a 'ball', but will still emit fire with say, a cone type area with greatly reduced distance, and reduced damage consistent with the reduced CL it is discharged at.) The second half of the bonus infusions operates at 1/4 the intended CL, in the same way.

Additionally, the "DC 20 + CL" check when creating an emulated spell effect to store in such items is amended like this:

The hard-cut point for true success remains the same-- DC20+CL, however, a "*ahem* 'success' *ahem*" margin of 10% is allotted, such that if you fall short of the required roll by this 10% margin, the attempt "succeeds", but is afflicted with an adverse effect that you wont know the specifics of until you use or discharge the stored spell.   Additionally, another 10% margin at the bottom (critical failure threshold, where a mishap would occur) is imposed, such that if you squeak by just above the critical failure mark-- you still "fail", but get a mostly harmless, but comical consequence for the failure. (Actual critical failure results in a real, painful-bad consequence, as normal.)

And finally---

Spell Storage Item itself has a slight amendment for this character--  Items intended to function for a short time when activated still peter out after the 1hr/lvl restriction, as per RAW-- but simply stored spell effects persist in the item until it is either discharged, or used to create a magical item through an item creation feat. (Since the artificer has no other real means of producing the requisite effects aside from spell emulation, and would be allowed to substitute the source of the spell in accordance with the dungeon master's guide.)   Stored spells that have a deleterious effect added to them, if used to fabricate actual general-use magic items (since spell storage items only work for the artificer, per RAW, and this is retained) transfer the deleterious effect into the finished item, and it cannot be removed.  The deleterious effect is not a rider, but instead represents a broken or twisted version of the spell effect itself.

To make up for the "can keep the items until discharged" amendment, the artificer can only keep track of so many such items per artificer level, making them function more-or-less like a spell slot, with slot number restrictions-- consistent with a sorc, (The artificer is CHA based, like a sorc) but hampered by the fact that you have to burn through your infusions to get stored spell items, that you must use this process to reload the stored spell items, and that you have the imposed failure mechanics mentioned above applied to this process, making a significant number of the "slots" dangerous to use.

Deleterious effects are decided by the "cursed item creation" rules in the dungeon master's guide.


I am putting this here for feedback before I actually submit the proposal.  Cut this shit up, and make it bleed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 13, 2021, 07:44:02 am

Been looking at ACKS again, one of those perennial RPGs I want to play but it's hard to find a group that A. wants to play old-school high-lethality games and B. also has the staying power to reach the really interesting ACKS stuff like forming a realm and being a ruler and doing wars and stuff.

They've got a new(? if i haven't seen it it's new to me) heroic fantasy supplement that adds fate points and other mechanics for longevity, along with a bunch of cool new magic stuff, relegating most humans to ceremonial magic which is subtle and takes time to cast, while elves get song magic and some other races get regular spellcasting, to make magic still accessible but giving the feel of the old school magic is rare and special vibe.

My current PC I'd Like to Play Eventually is a necromancer, but not like the lame black-robes skeleton army necromancer.  More of a mad scientist vibe, like frankenstein but with souls.  The type of guy to put two bodies in a blender and cast true resurrection to see what happens.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on September 13, 2021, 01:52:30 pm

Mentioning becoming a ruler and controlling a realm reminds me that one of the things I've wanted for a while was a tabletop game that simulated kingdom or empire management as its main focus.  Something where a few people could play over months or whatever to have a set of empires evolve and compete with each other.  I'm not sure any RPG would really fit the bill, but I saw at least one PbTA inspired system that handled it.  I can't remember the name, but it was focused on post apocalyptic clans, where I'm more interested in either typical fantasy or space opera sci-fi.

I've considered trying to make a system of my own, but therein lies madness.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 13, 2021, 03:11:17 pm

Reign is like that, there's also Pendragon which is ancient and I'm not sure if it's actually any good.

ACKS isn't completely tied around that, but it's a big part.  It tries to recreate the old old Arneson stuff, the adventuring aspects of D&D were basically a way to generate context for wargame battles.  ACKS has really extensive kingdom stats stuff and all classes have some means of creating a larger organization once they hit level 11, attracting followers and soldiers and such.  The setting is late antiquity with a fantasy Roman empire in terminal decline and the idea is as you get to higher levels you'll band together and carve off a chunk of this empire, using your own resources and skills to protect it both from the imperial forces and the encroaching darkness.

I think it's important to start early so you have the full context for what you're doing but you could probably use it as a pure kingdom management game with modifications, the rules for that are very detailed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 14, 2021, 04:57:59 pm

A Tempest Cleric 2/Scribe Wizard (lots) can, theoretically, change Meteor Swarm to all-lightning damage and then just set it to maximum damage at 240 (save for half).

...definitely not optimal/maximal damage values, the thought just occurred to me and I think it's kinda nifty.


EDIT: Why is there a Rogue subclass that Rangers better than a Ranger does?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: ijub on September 15, 2021, 01:36:07 pm

Spoiler: Druids (click to show/hide)

(https://i.redd.it/rv3cvrqkfel71.jpg)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 16, 2021, 02:06:11 pm

Quote from: Kagus on September 14, 2021, 04:57:59 pm

EDIT: Why is there a Rogue subclass that Rangers better than a Ranger does?

Because rangers and monks both live in the shelf for classes that are supposed to be jacks of all trades but actually end up being overly specialised whilst terrible at their specialisation. Whereas things like rogues and wizards are are supposed to be specialists but actually masters of all trades

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 16, 2021, 05:51:36 pm

I wouldn't say 5e rangers are terrible at their specialisation, it's just a really specific and boring specialty to have.

Shooting things, stabbing things, having a pet, spellcasting, being mobile, none of those are actually the ranger's shtick, their shtick is just 'is pretty handy in a few chosen environments.' Predictably this turns out to be rather dull in practice, and the same general character ideas can be better represented with another class or by a multiclass.

Nine times out of ten I'd rather be a rogue, fighter or bard even if I want to play a character who hangs out in forests and generally acts 'rangery'.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 16, 2021, 06:21:19 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 16, 2021, 05:51:36 pm

their shtick is just 'is pretty handy in a few chosen environments.'

>Ranger is the Aquaman of the party

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 16, 2021, 06:32:32 pm

Yeah but remember how cool Aragorn was when he duel-wielded bows though?

We never ended up using Rangers when we played 5e, so I don't remember how they work now.  In 3.5 my group constantly made jokes at the class's expense, but I eventually played a decently successful one once.  Sure their spell list is low-power and very limited... but they get full BAB.  They don't have the feat flexibility of a fighter, but they do get useful bonus feats specific to their chosen style.  Their animal companion is extremely fragile, but they don't lose experience points when it dies like a familiar.

Then uniquely they get Camouflage and hide-in-plain-sight, some flavorful and sometimes handy skills, and what my group mockingly called "hatred bonuses" against favored foes.  Of course it lacks the infinite flexibility and power of a full spellcaster like a druid, it's 3.5.  It just compares reasonably well to a fighter or rogue, with each of the three having different combat and out-of-combat niches.  Full BAB with *any* spellcasting is pretty sweet.  Low spells-per-day isn't so bad when wands and scrolls exist (and you don't need Use Magic Device for the Ranger spells, so get that wand of Cure Light Wounds and go nuts)

And unlike a Paladin you don't have to get in morality arguments unless you wanna :P

But yeah I don't know how they are in 5e.  I like 5e a lot, but most "martial" classes already feel like hybrid spellcasters already.  It's a choice I really enjoy, but I'm not sure where it leaves the ranger (or monk, for that matter).  I played 5e paladin for a while and had a blast, though I think I cast more spells as an arcane fighter heh.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 17, 2021, 03:53:04 am

Ranger was pretty great in Incursion though, as you could just start the game off with having a Night Hunter as your animal companion.

Flying, large (and rideable), and with a ludicrous 180' infravision that you got to share while riding the beast. Plus it had multiattack, and with some mounted feats giving it an auto-trip and AoOs on tripped enemies, it was actually pretty hilarious in combat in addition to being an incredible utility in the dark and craggy underground.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 20, 2021, 04:38:58 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 16, 2021, 05:51:36 pm

I wouldn't say 5e rangers are terrible at their specialisation, it's just a really specific and boring specialty to have.

Shooting things, stabbing things, having a pet, spellcasting, being mobile, none of those are actually the ranger's shtick, their shtick is just 'is pretty handy in a few chosen environments.' Predictably this turns out to be rather dull in practice, and the same general character ideas can be better represented with another class or by a multiclass.

Nine times out of ten I'd rather be a rogue, fighter or bard even if I want to play a character who hangs out in forests and generally acts 'rangery'.

I suppose there's also the problem of monks and rangers needing DM assistance to shine. Not much point being a ranger if your party always exclusively goes outside your favoured environments and you never even touch the wilderness. I will remember fondly the time where my monk character really got a rare chance to shine when our whole party was put in prison; suddenly unarmed fighting, catching arrows & fall damage negation came very in handy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 20, 2021, 06:05:00 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on September 20, 2021, 04:38:58 am

fall damage negation came very in handy

Monk: I'm not taking the fall for this!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 20, 2021, 06:41:58 am

Speaking of DM assistance, I came across a delightful grapple jump build that is very straightforward and naturally requires a lot of leeway in being allowed to actually put it all together and use it.

Simic Hybrid Beast Barbarian, level 6 and up. That's it. Take Manta Glide and Grappling Appendages as the mutations, and if you really want to crank it up a notch, get a buddy or a feat to give yourself a casting of Jump (it's not concentration, so it's not broken by raging).

Enjoy being able to bonus-action grapple after an attack, then add the *total* of an Athletics check (with advantage, because raging) to your jump height, triple that with the Jump spell, and easily yeet yourself into the stratosphere with your unwilling passengers. This admittedly kinda caps out at 80', and that's only if you spend an action to Dash, but you're still easily hitting 40' on a normal turn. So that's 4d6 falling damage, or 8d6 (hey, it's a fireball!) on the Dash turns, and you just negate all the fall damage to yourself because it's under 100'.


I mean, sure, that character probably isn't going to exist anywhere outside of theorycrafting due to needing to 1) Be allowed to roll a Simic Hybrid Barbarian, and 2) Completely fart in the face of common sense because of the lack of real rules surrounding moving/jumping while grappling...

But it's still a fun thought!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 20, 2021, 07:48:00 am

Grappling is fun. Just the fact that it's useful for all characters endears the action to me; I have a frontline centaur sorceror character which is very squishy but has 16 STR and 16 CHA. Their melee attack alone or cantripts are pretty abysmal, and I get by the suboptimal stats by casting buffs or environmental spells. But when those rare moments come along where suddenly you can grapple and drag something with insane carry capacity from your heavy build & brawny feat, and it all becomes worth it.

Last session was like that. We were facing off against a vampire lord of a blood casino. Our paladin player got charmed by the vampire lord and decided to defect to him (the DM was very specific in his wording; the paladin player was not dominated and was free to act however he would provided he took no hostile action against the vampire. He decided to join the vampire. I was not amused; not because he had betrayed us, but because his character was so inconsistent - alternating between uni professor and edgy nazi scientist whenever he felt like it).

The vampire lord was already a significant threat but with the addition of a paladin giving him +5 to all saves and on demand healing, it was looking like it was going to be TPK. But by grappling the vampire lord, whose lack of thicc quads or biceps was suddenly startlingly apparent, my hasted out grapplesorcerer managed to drag him with a jump spell over the paladin and over a river of magma where my wizard and warlock allies were waiting. Our paladin player tried to misty step over to assist the vampire lord but a dispel magic from our wizard stopped him mid stride, causing him to fall into the magma below.

This paladin player was also carrying many explosives. Yet due to the DM giving him two "get out of jail free" magic items which would put you out of instant death and into death saving throws, or out of death saving throws and into 1 HP, he unfortunately was not instantly killed. This also irritated me, because one of my characters died to one shot disintegration after trying to save his character (who decided to charge into the enemy on his own despite our carefully thought out plan). The fact that he had two such items and didn't give me one was grating. The fact that he wasted two of them to assist another one of our enemies irritated me more.

Our paladin player was assisting this vampire lord so he could get the vampire lord's chainsword. Because of course our edgy paladin who doesn't even believe in any god or moral system (why even play a paladin if you have no moral code? it's like playing a druid who doesn't even know nature exists), he just believes in spiky leather, flaming whips and chainswords. The setting is light fantasy with 17th century window dressing. I make sure to drag this vampire lord and his chainsword close to some little box of WMDs and I set it off with erupting earth. Vampire is erased from existence. So is his chainsword. Paladin player is sad about this loss. Grappling saves the day yet again.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 27, 2021, 07:28:37 am

Weird train of thought. At what point does a creature polymorphed into a loaf of bread turn back?

Bread is an object, and objects have HP, so logically it turns back at 0 HP like normal for 5e polymorph. But at what point is bread at 0 HP?

Does cutting a slice off put the loaf at 0? Does it hit 0 when fully sliced? Does it have to be eaten or burnt to hit 0? What if it gets covered in mold and rots into mush?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 27, 2021, 08:45:57 am

Objects (capital O) are discrete, so presumably it hits 0 HP when it ceases to be a "loaf", by paradox of the heap.

Is a bread loaf with a single toast slice cut off, still a loaf? Probably.
Is a loaf with many slices cut off, still a loaf? That's fuzzy.
Is a loaf cut in half with a single cut, still a loaf? Nah, at that point I'd recategorize the halves as discrete "halves of a loaf".

A loaf with a single spot of mold is no longer food, destroying it, whereas a little bit of fire only makes it delicious, but too much destroys it. The rules say some materials may take more or less damage from certain damage types, so it makes sense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2021, 08:50:18 am

In the spirit of rulings not rules I would rule that being polymorphed into a normal loaf of bread would be instantly fatal even if he's turned back, but also extremely difficult, and normally you'd have to turn them into a human bread statue, identical to petrification.  Loaf-polymorph would be like lossy compression and you'd have to expend additional information to delete a large amount of information from the universe, equivalent to casting polymorph and finger of death at the same time.

I don't care what the rules say about it, if anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 27, 2021, 08:54:49 am

Building a rogue.

Top of the magic item wishlist is Gauntlets of Ogre Power.


Yeah, this looks right.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 27, 2021, 08:57:00 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 27, 2021, 07:28:37 am

Weird train of thought. At what point does a creature polymorphed into a loaf of bread turn back?

Bread is an object, and objects have HP, so logically it turns back at 0 HP like normal for 5e polymorph. But at what point is bread at 0 HP?

Does cutting a slice off put the loaf at 0? Does it hit 0 when fully sliced? Does it have to be eaten or burnt to hit 0? What if it gets covered in mold and rots into mush?

All of those would probably be 0 HP. DnD benchmark for damage is that everything >50% HP is the character doing their best to avoid danger. Everything <50% is when a character starts accruing injury, things like cuts, scrapes and bruises.
So all of these things would cause the bread to become a person again; thin slice, half slice, toasting, eating or burning - even molding is covered by other forms of damage.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 27, 2021, 09:22:00 am

That always bugged me though.  I get the idea and it's generally a good one I think, but say you're at 45/50 hp and drink a potion, that's basically gatorade at that point right? Just restoring lost energy and pepping you up to survive another attack.  But if the same guy is at -3 hp and drinks a potion suddenly it's livesaving healing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 27, 2021, 11:26:37 am

Quote from: Kagus on September 27, 2021, 08:54:49 am

Building a rogue.

Top of the magic item wishlist is Gauntlets of Ogre Power.


Yeah, this looks right.

"Rogues are ogre-powered"

"Don't you mean overpowered?"

"What?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 27, 2021, 12:42:39 pm

My issue is more that the idea of objects having hp breaks down with objects with 1 hp that are basically intended to be cut up and D&Ds rules for objects are so minimal as to be frustrating, though it only really comes up because of the stupid way they did polymorph in 5e. Though it is also too easy to smash stone walls with swords.

In 3.5 if you turned someone into a sandwich and then ate the sandwich they were dead.

In 5e if you turn someone into a sandwich and do basically anything to that sandwich the victim just pops up perfectly fine next to the person who was messing with the sandwich.


Odd thing is, if you smash a person that was petrified by Flesh to Stone then they stay smashed when turned back, so they're dead. But Polymorph any Object-ing someone into a statue means they just turn back and are perfectly fine if they get even partially smashed.

The 0 HP makes you revert mechanic doesn't even stop PaO being a save or die effect, you just have to turn them into an object that doesn't degrade and stick it somewhere safe rather than turning them into a toad and then stepping on them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 27, 2021, 01:02:54 pm

They're at 0 hp, shouldn't they just be a corpse post polymorph?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 27, 2021, 01:07:07 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on September 27, 2021, 11:26:37 am

Quote from: Kagus on September 27, 2021, 08:54:49 am

Building a rogue.

Top of the magic item wishlist is Gauntlets of Ogre Power.


Yeah, this looks right.

"Rogues are ogre-powered"

"Don't you mean overpowered?"

"What?"

"Roll for Shrek attack damage"


But nah, I'm doing a funky frontline defense-oriented Swashbuckler, and have been getting a surprising amount of usage out of shoving/grappling during fights to help out the team. ...despite just having 8 STR (and getting really lucky).

Now I'm hoping to focus a little more on that to round out my utility in fights, so I'm not stuck just doing "I attack the thing" and then missing half the time. With the gauntlets, my Athletics would actually end up at +10 and make me less reliant on the super lucky rolls.


...it would also mean that I'd have kind of a funny interaction with the big beefcleric played by the somewhat thick-headed braggart in our game, in that I'd actually have more strength than the generic giant tough-guy viking who stands a head taller than my char (and who regularly makes a big deal out of being the big muscleman with his... 13 strength).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 30, 2021, 09:49:05 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on September 27, 2021, 09:22:00 am

That always bugged me though.  I get the idea and it's generally a good one I think, but say you're at 45/50 hp and drink a potion, that's basically gatorade at that point right? Just restoring lost energy and pepping you up to survive another attack.  But if the same guy is at -3 hp and drinks a potion suddenly it's livesaving healing.

I think it still works. A bit like how bandaging your feet after a marathon and bandaging your wound after a stabbing do different things with the same thing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 01, 2021, 08:34:45 pm

Dumb question that came up while zoning out at work...

How well would a portable hole (or equivalent dimensional space) function for the purpose of food preservation?

If it's closed, the internal temperature should equal out over time, there's no way for heat to get in, nor get out.  I should be able to stuff it with snow or ice and as long as the hole's closed it really shouldn't melt.  The air supply is also limited, but I doubt bacteria consume the air all that fast, considering a whole person can last ten minutes.  Unless you could use magic to suck/move the air out before closing it.

All things considered, all I invented was the magic beer cooler.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 04, 2021, 04:28:55 am

Should be pretty decent at keeping food good for a week and a bit, maybe even more. If it's packed with ice then even anaerobic fungi will have trouble proliferating

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 04, 2021, 06:36:30 am

How "simple" of a simple shape would you allow for the Shape Water spell? Are we talking just cubes/spheres/pyramids, or would you allow for things more like a Lego block, or some other object with multiple sticky-outy bits?

I really want to piece together the Popsicle Wizard with Prestidigitation and Shape Water, but that "simple shapes" limitation is kinda being the hurdle between "handing out dozens of popsicles an hour" and "handing out one colossally huge popsicle an hour"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 04, 2021, 08:43:22 am

I'd say simple shapes, but a wizard with proficiency in ice sculpting can go ham

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 04, 2021, 08:52:27 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 04, 2021, 06:36:30 am

I really want to piece together the Popsicle Wizard with Prestidigitation and Shape Water, but that "simple shapes" limitation is kinda being the hurdle between "handing out dozens of popsicles an hour" and "handing out one colossally huge popsicle an hour"

Look, a single dragon is a more important friend than 100 commoner...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 04, 2021, 05:32:45 pm

You can get as complex a shape as vertices you can hold in your brain~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 04, 2021, 05:50:55 pm

Quote from: Kagus on October 04, 2021, 06:36:30 am

I really want to piece together the Popsicle Wizard with Prestidigitation and Shape Water, but that "simple shapes" limitation is kinda being the hurdle between "handing out dozens of popsicles an hour" and "handing out one colossally huge popsicle an hour"

Why do I think this might be relevant? (https://pbfcomics.com/comics/mr-scoop/)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 04, 2021, 06:35:06 pm

If push comes to shove, why not stone shape yourself an ice tray?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Gentlefish on October 04, 2021, 07:36:34 pm

Relatedly, druid flashlight: woodshape a case and handle around a relatively smooth rock. Cast light on the rock.

(or get everburning flame cast on it via a friendly wizard and fashion a lever-action cover to make it fancy)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Akura on October 05, 2021, 05:02:26 am

Quote from: delphonso on October 04, 2021, 08:52:27 am

Look, a single dragon is a more important friend than 100 commoner...

The accuracy of this statement depends on whether the DM allows use of the Peasant Railgun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 05, 2021, 05:05:20 am

Also depends on the dragon, and the .. ahem... nature of the "Friendship."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 05, 2021, 01:27:57 pm

A friend wants to try out her DMing abilities by doing a mini-campaign for a few of us.

So, naturally, we're gonna be starting at level 8 and flavored as lesser devils in our home plane of Avernus.


I haven't really landed on any real character concepts for this, but I did unfortunately bump into a build recently that can fart out 8 GWM attacks in one round at level 8, which I will not be using because I don't want to munchkin the fuck out of her first campaign.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on October 05, 2021, 04:42:03 pm

Why wouldn't you want to make it a thematically hellish campaign?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on October 05, 2021, 10:26:21 pm

Quote from: Akura on October 05, 2021, 05:02:26 am

The accuracy of this statement depends on whether the DM allows use of the Peasant Railgun.

I was just hanging out with my dragon friend, eating an enormous popsicle when a popsicle moving at 1000ft/second flew straight through its skull! That damn rival Popsicle Wizard...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Enemy post on October 06, 2021, 12:15:19 am

A bit of a crossover with the random thought thread, but I think this picture from the 3rd edition monster manual had a strong effect on me.

(https://i.imgur.com/hIlLSzI.png)

It's very evocative. I think Primal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172869.0) and a couple of my D&D characters probably owe some of their mental DNA to that illustration.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 06, 2021, 10:20:28 am

Quote from: wierd on October 05, 2021, 05:05:20 am

Also depends on the dragon, and the .. ahem... nature of the "Friendship."

Dragon riding high elves of Caledor just want one thing and it's disgusting

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 06, 2021, 02:04:48 pm

Quote from: scriver on October 05, 2021, 04:42:03 pm

Why wouldn't you want to make it a thematically hellish campaign?

I mean, a slightly different build at level 9 can do 6 attacks with superadvantage in a round.

"Oh, it's my initiative? Okay, uh, well, lemme just roll 18d20 real quick..."


Also, I'm pretty sure it's the players who are supposed to be trudging through hell, not the DM :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on October 06, 2021, 02:32:07 pm

18d20 sounds like casting fireball with extra steps.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 06, 2021, 04:12:28 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on October 06, 2021, 02:32:07 pm

18d20 sounds like casting fireball with extra steps.

You might enjoy my 51d20 68d6 build.

The one I made specifically for the sake of rolling as many dice as possible on their turn and just generally being a horrible abomination of a character that should never be included in a game ever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 07, 2021, 07:25:20 am

Can you reroll those dice to maximise the rolling?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 07, 2021, 08:16:26 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on October 07, 2021, 07:25:20 am

Can you reroll those dice to maximise the rolling?

Eh, not as much as one might hope, I don't think... You can squeeze an easy extra 10d6 out if you really want, but I haven't looked into all possible rerolling options. Halfling doesn't work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 07, 2021, 11:22:14 am

I'm setting up an ACKS campaign, set between Jutland(Norse but mediterranean climate) and Rorn (England but mediterranean climate) (https://i.imgur.com/XHJbRbO.jpg).

Gonna be a sandbox type of hexcrawl, still adding points of interest and such.  Being late antiquity norse Jutland is still in a tribal/clan structure with petty kingdoms that rise and fall with the success of their leaders.  Wave-cutter is the biggest, it's the jomsviking type of thing, mercenaries and pirates that have been highly successful.  Players will start in Holgirsson.

The "plot" is an underlying situation.  The sorcerer king Sebek, way off the map to the southeast, is doing That Which Sleeps shenanigans to bring about the Awakening, where the chthonic (underground, not cthulhu) gods manifest on earth and destroy all the enemies of Chaos.  He's got agents in Jutland, he doesn't see it as a threat to his plans but Rorn would fight him and he's hoping to subvert Jutland and use it to neutralize Rorn.  There'll be some opportunities to interact with this conspiracy and as the PCs become bigger players in Jutland the conspiracy will eventually come to them.

Mimic Farmstead is what I'm most excited about.  When/if the PCs arrive they'll find the 13 people living there having some kind of conniption.  They've found these empty pods full of undifferentiated human tissue, seven of them.  One of them had a guy's ring in it, and they're convinced that guy has been replaced with some kind of imposter, body-snatchers style.  They're correct, and six more of them are pod people too.

The pod people are mostly identical, except...

-The pod regrows lost body parts.  This is apparent on the guy with the ring if they look close enough and ask around, and that'll help them identify one or two real people.
-The pod recreates their personality perfectly, but their memories of the night they got podded are scrambled, either swapping memories completely or swapping characters.  So for example, Bob went to the market with Bill, and Joe played cards with Jim.  Joe and Bob got podded, and now Joe thinks he went to the market with Bill, and Bob thinks he went to the market will Jim.  It's obvious that some of the memories are wrong, but since everyone is sus you can't say who's telling the truth.

So the players will have to identify at least one real person and work backwards to identify whose memories are incompatible with the confirmed true memories, alongside any more traditional detective work they do.  If they fail, or ignore it, eventually they'll get the entire farmstead and go after the players or just start hitting other villages and farmsteads around the area.

I'm excited for it, it'll be fun.

---

Snorri's Bane is just a mini-dungeon, the lair of a grendel-type monster that killed a locally famous hero Snorri the Iron-Skinned.  His magic shield Sword-Shame is still there, you can use it to sunder weapons if they fail an attack roll against you.  Another big early dungeon will be an artificial dungeon created by a local wizard, he lets monsters take up residence and hires adventurers to clear them out and bring him back corpses and magically-contaminated organs for his spell research.  He's also part of Sebek's conspiracy, and uses his access to build a register of local adventurers and mercenaries to forward to other conspirators.  Useful ones might be approached, others might be eliminated or ignored. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 19, 2021, 09:27:08 am

A stupid idea I have for a campaign premise. The PCs are members of one faction of their choice in a war of succession following the death of a child king, thing is that the war of succession is huge and complicated and involves several different types of claims to leadership.

Claimant ideas I have include:

A foreign noble who has a claim on the throne according to their realm's legal system but not the realm in question's legal system. Backed mostly by their holdings in their homeland.

A descendent of a family that was deposed by the former monarch's family several generations ago, and is now the most obvious successor in the realm's own laws but lacks popular backing.

A devil who was declared the heir of the realm in the event the royal family dies out by one of the recently deceased monarch's recent ancestors as part of a pact. Barely any backing from the nobles or clergy, but has fiends and cultists insisting that a deal is a deal.

A powerful Duke who was married to the family of someone who married into the royal family. No proper claim, but powerful enough to contest things on even the most tenuous grounds.

A less powerful Duke who has the backing of more nobles on the grounds of popularity despite no genuine claim to the throne. Is nominally a reformist who wants to return the kingdom to an elective monarchy succession system it left behind a few centuries prior, in part because it would justify him being king.

The widowed mother (not of the royal line) of the deceased king, and their only immediate living relative. A decent politician and broadly liked, but a woman in a patriarchal succession system. Backed by what could be termed as loyalists who see her as a vestige of the old regime they can cling to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 19, 2021, 11:34:00 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 19, 2021, 09:27:08 am

The widowed mother (not of the royal line) of the deceased king, and their only immediate living relative. A decent politician and broadly liked, but a woman in a patriarchal succession system. Backed by what could be termed as loyalists who see her as a vestige of the old regime they can cling to.

Go full Hatshepsut on their asses

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on October 19, 2021, 08:51:23 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 19, 2021, 09:27:08 am

A devil who was declared the heir of the realm in the event the royal family dies out by one of the recently deceased monarch's recent ancestors as part of a pact. Barely any backing from the nobles or clergy, but has fiends and cultists insisting that a deal is a deal.

A fun one to push as the strongest claim based on law, if there's a paladin in the group.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 19, 2021, 09:47:24 pm

It's a solid idea, particularly since it relies on the line dying out.  It'd almost certainly be unlawful as heck if it was just "when I die you get my kingdom" since you usually couldn't just nominate some rando as your heir.  There are, well, laws and traditions, meant to prevent exactly that kind of abuse.

But the end of a line is akin to the end of a nation, in that sort of divine monarchy.  Anything goes, in a way, and a devil stepping in with law-and-order might well gain the fealty of the local noble vassals.  The alternative is complete chaos.  An infernal contact (inherently trustworthy, in-universe) would be largely an excuse, but a good one to point to.  The divine mandate continues- via this lawful immortal.

Except it's a *devil* so the party has plenty of reason to get involved.  They'll probably be tricking people into soul contracts at the very least, if not gearing up for aggressive wars.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 20, 2021, 12:44:28 am

delightfully devilish

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on October 20, 2021, 03:37:06 am

And you just know that the forces of Hell would have shown summoning-leniency in order to kill off the line.  Which might be a way to convince certain nobles that the devil is an unjust liege.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 20, 2021, 05:46:12 am

My thoughts are that the nobles for the most part don't care about the devil's legitimacy, in large part because a lot of them don't care about who has the legitimate claim anyway.

I'm also thinking the child king died in a genuine accident, dying to injuries sustained when thrown from a horse in a riding lesson. Not that some of the claimants aren't accusing others of being murderers to undermine them, as well as spreading other falsehoods. In my head at the moment the only honest claimants are the queen mother, the foreign noble and the devil. All the others are spreading some kind of lies about the other claimants or about their own claims validity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on October 20, 2021, 08:11:23 am

Where's the non- aristocratic Pretender, attempting to sway the common folk and ride to the throne on a wave of popular support?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 20, 2021, 08:35:00 am

Because if there's a unambiguous good guy then the players will always back them, and rob us of the fun part where we see which faction they like best~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 20, 2021, 09:24:18 am

I could see a bandit king or similar rallying a bunch of peasants to their cause, not a nice person by any means, but not necessarily any worse than anyone else in the running.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 20, 2021, 10:53:10 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 20, 2021, 09:24:18 am

I could see a bandit king or similar rallying a bunch of peasants to their cause, not a nice person by any means, but not necessarily any worse than anyone else in the running.

YELLOW TURBAN REBELLION IS IN FULL SWING BABY

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 20, 2021, 05:15:23 pm

Okay. Dumbass build time incoming.

Since the new campaign I'm eventually going to get roped into starts at level 8, I've had to create a character for that level and as such have discovered that level 8 is a particularly curious beast of a level in the variety of builds it can support.

And so it is that I mashed together another such dumbass build this evening.


Scourge Aasimar Storm Barbarian 3/Warlock 5 (There are a couple picks for this, which I'll get into later). We take the Desert path for barb, and pick up Cloak of Flies as a level 5 invocation.

Cloak of Flies can technically be up indefinitely (provided we don't get knocked out), so it doesn't eat into action economy so long as you're okay with buzzing more than your local swarm ranger all the time. Entering into a fight, we can use our racial action and the rage bonus action on the first turn, at which point we're in full Radioactive Randy mode.

Everyone within 10' of you will take 2 fire, 4 radiant damage every turn (you also take the 4 radiant, but as an Aasimar you're resistant to radiant damage sooo...), and everyone within 5' will take an additional CHAmod poison. No saves for any of this, it just happens throughout the course of a round (start of enemy turn for CoF, end of your turn for Scourge, and bonus action on your turn for barb burn).

Now, you basically can't stand anywhere close to the rest of the party thanks to your awful technicolor radiation. Also a very significant portion of your damage comes from a once-per-long-rest ability. Additionally, there are some curious hangups with this build if we want to try being relevant outside of our nuke aura, which I'll go into here with talking about patron options:

Fiendlock seems like the obvious choice, thanks to the bonus tempHP whenever reducing something else to 0. This is especially entertaining seeing as CoF gets calculated at the start of an enemy's turn, and can potentially top us off multiple times in a round outside of our turn. We also get a couple chances on our turn, once with the fire aura from our bonus action (before we take self-inflicted damage), and once from the radiant aura as our turn ends (most likely after we take self-inflicted damage), giving us several opportunities to mitigate the damage we're eating thanks to being in the thick of the frontline while also sunburning ourselves.

For Fiendlock, we'd obviously want to pump CHA as much as possible for both CoF and tempHP, and the additional synergy between those two. ...however, by doing so we leave ourselves without any particularly good ways of dealing normal attacks, except by potentially taking Pact of the Tome and going for shillelagh. But that'd require a rageless round of buffing for a fight, which we may or may not be keen on spending. Furthermore, it locks us out of the synergies found in...

Hexlock, which is also an obvious choice, but it's an obvious choice for everything so that doesn't make it special here. This lets us use CHA for weapon attacks too, and taking Pact of the Blade means we can open up two attacks per action via Thirsting Blade, as well as Eldritch Smite which allows us to still use our spell slots even when we're raging (since it's technically not a spell). The issue here, however, is that if we're following leveling rules we technically can't have Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Smite and Cloak of Flies all at once at Warlock 5, since they're all level 5 invocations. One of them has to go. And the Hexblade's curse also uses a bonus action, but this one can be used while raging so it's less of a biggie. Not a huge amount of synergy there, but it's at least usable. Have to forego your fire damage for a round though.

If you do go the Pact of the Blade route, a couple more levels in Barbarian will get you extra attack for free, letting you replace Thirsting Blade with something else.


Now, is being able to deal about 10 damage to everything within 5' particularly overpowered? ...well, no. I just wanted to make a character stacking as many damaging auras as I could, because I thought it was funny.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 21, 2021, 07:57:17 am

Has anybody checked out Impossible Landscapes for nu-Delta Green?  It's pretty damn good, not as expansive and open as Masks of Nyarlathotep but still big and weird and scary, and finally finally finally we have a good and comprehensive look at King in Yellow.  All through history he's either been super vague or super terrible, like whatever that blobby "hastur" shit was in Call of Cthulhu.

Spoiler: Impossible Landscapes Big Spoilers (click to show/hide)

Over the course of the campaign the players, investigating a missing woman a la Twin Peaks, eventually go onto the seventh floor of the six-floor hotel she lived in and find themselves in an infinite and impossible jumble of Edwardian-era hotel shit.  At first it's a process of slipping back and forth between the real world and the backrooms, and over the course of the campaign it becomes impossible to distinguish between the two.  They investigate a mental hospital and find themselves in a nightmare version of the hospital where the doctors treat them as patients and what are you gonna do, tell the shrink at the asylum "no you don't understand, I'm a secret government agent?" They're just gonna give you valium and put you back in your room. The only way out is through, diving deeper and deeper into the insanity in the hopes of a permanent escape, because at some point in the story the "real world" you thought you lived in ceased to exist or proved itself a fiction, and everything has become Carcosa.  The "horrible truth" that's mandatory for Lovecraft shit is the illusory nature of reality.  The instant you start thinking about the King in Yellow reality starts degrading and Carcosa slips in through the holes, until eventually there's only Carcosa.  But Carcosa doesn't go away if you think really hard about the "real world," so shouldn't the "reality" qualifier be the other way around?  Carcosa isn't a distorted version of the real world, the real world is a thin and fragile imitation of Carcosa.

It's also got lots of advice for running a horror campaign, good stuff for keeping things scary without turning it into just nonsense, maintaining a level of mundanity by roleplaying the normal things people have to do when they're not being secret agents, and how to make those sequences feel increasingly thin and hollow as characters' sanity goes down.  Lots of random weird events which are fun and nicely ambiguous as to whether they're sinister or not.

Spoiler: My favorite example, it's like a triple reverse bait and switch red herring (click to show/hide)

The investigators get in on the missing woman because there was a symbol on the wall in her room associated with the occult.  Savvy players say "oh it's the yellow sign lol" but when they get there it's the sigil of Purson, a goetic demon.  Tension deflated.  Then if they touch the sigil a trumpet blast fills the room, tension back up.  Turns out it's just a taxi driver laying on his horn outside as a hobo with a giant boa constrictor walks slowly across the road.  Tension deflated.  Oh wait, Purson is the one that blasts on the trumpet! (https://i.pinimg.com/474x/74/ca/a7/74caa70c16a0047843b69bca0a4ca840.jpg)  What! 

That kind of stuff is some of the best stuff in the campaign, weird events that seem like one thing but are actually another, and in the end it's hard to tell if it's a real unnatural event or a fake-out or a coincidence or if it's the characters losing their minds.

EDIT:  Read through the whole campaign, not entirely sure about it?  It has a lot of great ideas, but a few railroady areas, which seems like it's sort of intentional?

Spoiler: It's the first postmodern tabletop campaign (click to show/hide)

It's basically, though subtle about it, a campaign about being characters in an RPG campaign.  At first you're in the real world, you discover that there's a weird, nonsensical imitation underneath the real world, then once your eyes are open you start to realize everything around you is fake.  The world simplifies and collapses around the path you're meant to follow.  Delta Green activates the STATIC protocol (the king in yellow is contagious, kill anyone who knows about it and anyone they told) and by the end of the third adventure you're running for your life from a DG hit squad that never stops coming, bursting out of doors and around corners in literally infinite numbers.  You realize the buildings around you are plywood stage props, the people just costumed marionettes on strings, the sky's just painted on, and the only way to go is forward, into Carcosa, to the resolution of the campaign, because you're just a character and you exist to entertain invisible higher beings with the drama of your life.

Later on, just to reinforce it, you find a factory in Carcosa that makes stage props and costumes, and all the places you've been, people you've met, are in there, boxed up and ready to be shipped out to the stage that you thought was your life.

It's a neat idea, and mostly it looks like it would work well in a game, but a few parts (such as the aforementioned STATIC chase) start to push against good game design I think.  Or maybe not.  Maybe the old adage is true, and it doesn't matter if you're on rails if the scenery is cool.  I generally don't think so though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Digital Hellhound on October 25, 2021, 04:57:42 am

That sounds like it has great ideas. Cannibalize it for parts and make room for a less railroady ending, perhaps?

I've been struggling with all the horrors and monsters of CoC feeling a bit... dull and conventional, I guess, so this sounds great. Everything in the bestiary seems to be gross and too terrible to describe, but in the end just big monsters without anything that would give me, at least, existential dread. Except for the guys like Azathoth, but my players roughly know their deal so it doesn't feel as impactful.

Not that you have to play them like that, of course. In the (sole) oneshot I did, there was a box which contained a flame of Cthugha (who gets very, very little description, so I just went wild) that compelled all those who looked at it to give parts of themselves to it.

Someone ended up sacrificing something more abstract and got a part of their background wiped from reality, so that's more up my alley. Mostly it was fun watching my players play hot potato with it while trying to evade other spooks.

I struggle to put to words what I mean, but I guess I feel disappointed by how sparse and mundane-feeling the list of horrors in the core book is. I guess that's on the Mythos authors, but the CoC people could have tried to give more hooks for what make them unique. Maybe I just don't understand the game, though!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 25, 2021, 05:58:57 am

Most Lovecraftian things in Lovecraft aren't very scary. Most of the times characters see a Lovecraftian creature they're curious (scientists inspecting the elder beings in ATMOM, the psychiatrist who speaks to the thing living in Joe Slater Beyond the Wall of Sleep) and there are very few moments where someone goes insane who wasn't already insane, and of those who do get "shook" they mostly all return to normal form - even the guys who saw Cthulhu didn't lose their minds. Off the top of my head only the guy who fucked with Nyalarthotep by calling him a fraud and a charlatan (lol), the guy who got transported to the end of the world, the guy who got Dagon'd and the guy who discovered that worm-wizards walk amongst us were horrified to their core, as opposed to terrified momentarily (e.g. OH FUCK A SHOGGOTH RUN vs I don't want to live anymore to be quite honest). There's also all the dream cycle stuff where the character is arguably not insane, but they have gotten used to things that makes them look insane. Idk where I'm going with this tbh

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on October 25, 2021, 12:05:09 pm

Started rereading the king in yellow, the original short story collection.  Repairer of Reputations is a great one about an insane person.  It's set in a really weird, sinister version of 1920s America (the book was written in like 1895) where suicide is legal and they're building "Government Lethal Chambers" in every city, Jews have been expelled from the country, there's a reservation for black people, a lot of weird ugly things but as the book goes on the narrator is so clearly insane that even those basic facts about the setting become suspect.  He shows up in the campaign as well, along with the repairer himself, Mr. Wilde.  And if you try to leave the hotel I mentioned, you can end up trapped in the book version of America.

I agree that Lovecraft stuff as written is mostly kind of bad, and insanity is kind of bad.  Insanity works in impossible landscapes because as a player's sanity goes down you can ratchet up the king in yellow shit for them, representing it less as "i'm insane" and more as "i'm seeing things the way they really are."

Which works in mundanity too.  In my eyes, Lovecraft insanity is this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDB0LRuhbkY)  Or more generally, someone is insane when their worldview makes them unable to function in normal society.  Like, finding out Cthulhu is real doesn't mean you suddenly have schizophrenia, but when your PC kills a bunch of people and burns down a building and tells the police "i had to do it, they were secretly a cult trying to summon cthulhu, which is a giant monster under the ocean that wants to wipe out humanity" what are they gonna call you in the newspapers?  Yeah.

I think DG/CoC need a strong core of mundanity for the weird shit to hit properly.  The new DG builds this into the system with bonds, you have a life outside being a DG agent and part of the game is trying to balance your normal obligations with DG's obligations, and watching everything slowly fall apart under the pressure. 

Spoiler: Impossible Landscapes again (click to show/hide)

IL gives some good advice for this, and especially later on you're carrying Carcosa everywhere you go and realize that running to your family for a taste of sanity puts them in active danger.  You call your wife and you can hear the clatter of marionette joints when they move.  Not to mention Delta Green has very aggressive policies re: the king in yellow and will kill your family if they find out you exposed them to it

But even in the horror itself, I think it should mostly be more mundane hazards to life and limb, with the supernatural as an intrusion on the mundane world, not the norm.  If I did a coc/dg campaign I would probably heavily limit the threats in the world, like the game is specifically about the mi-go, or Cthulhu, etc.  There's too much shit, a campaign starts to feel like scooby doo if you're too varied with it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on October 25, 2021, 12:44:21 pm

That moment when you build up 40 Insight and realize that the city was full of giant mind-boggling monsters clinging to the buildings all along and you just couldn't see them~

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Skynet on October 25, 2021, 02:03:12 pm

I’m actually planning on running a DG campaign that uses Impossible Landscapes, and may even produce AARs (not just for people to read, but also so that I remember what happened). And yeah, I plan on cannibalizing sections of the campaign. Railroads may be fun to read, but far less fun to play.

As an interesting note, the campaign itself takes place in an alternate timeline that is meant to be a sequel to a non-DG campaign. The players were British politicians in 1986 who managed to prevent World War Three from turning nuclear. As a result, the United States and the Soviet Union are now allied together, creating The Network.

The Network actively researches the occult, while trying to stop “disruptive” research that could threaten their power. They view MJ-12 with suspicion, since they love doing research…but they’re otherwise legal. Delta Green, by contrast, are seen as dangerous terrorists (thanks to MJ-12’s shenanigans).

There is also one added issue. In the 1990s, the Masquerade (the unwritten agreement by the elite to keep people ignorant about the supernatural) broke down due to technological advancement making it impractical to keep secrets. So people now know that the supernatural is real, but are are ignorant of the details. This means you have a society that is prepared to deal with the occult (which means you don’t look insane when you’re talking about a raid)…but then you have a society that might also be more vulnerable to it as well (since familiarity might lead to unnecessary risk-taking) and you still want to cover stuff up (so people don’t realize how bad things are going to get…and you don’t want average citizens to get ideas about weaponizing the Mythos).

This is the timeline document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HGC-s4TBM75Da0_njiZAAchOcHr5jThGNZHwyr06rtI/edit) I gave my players, which essentially said most of what I said above. The reason I posted all this though is because:

Spoiler: “Impossible Landscape Spoilers” (click to show/hide)

…since the game takes place in an alternate timeline, I can’t have players travel to different timelines. Like stepping out of a hotel only to travel to 1920’s America with “Government Lethal Chambers”. Traveling to alternate timelines sound cool in a DG game that takes place in OTL. In an alternate timeline though, you have no understanding of what is supposed to be mundane and what is supposed to “weird/scary”, so you’ll probably need to stay in that timeline longer to get yourself aquatinted to it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 25, 2021, 03:28:07 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on October 25, 2021, 12:05:09 pm

Which works in mundanity too.  In my eyes, Lovecraft insanity is this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDB0LRuhbkY)  Or more generally, someone is insane when their worldview makes them unable to function in normal society.  Like, finding out Cthulhu is real doesn't mean you suddenly have schizophrenia, but when your PC kills a bunch of people and burns down a building and tells the police "i had to do it, they were secretly a cult trying to summon cthulhu, which is a giant monster under the ocean that wants to wipe out humanity" what are they gonna call you in the newspapers?  Yeah.

Ah yea, that's the way to do it. Helps to isolate player characters too from civil society

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on October 26, 2021, 08:57:13 am

This is why i LOVE the idea of a "raised with chronic exposure to mythos beings" character taking SAN damage from normal suburbia, such as a trip to the mall, but being just fine when having a chat with a starfish-headed elder thing about the finer points of bbq.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 26, 2021, 10:27:11 am

Quote from: wierd on October 26, 2021, 08:57:13 am

This is why i LOVE the idea of a "raised with chronic exposure to mythos beings" character taking SAN damage from normal suburbia, such as a trip to the mall, but being just fine when having a chat with a starfish-headed elder thing about the finer points of bbq.

Reminds me of a dark heresy game where one of our acolytes started acting "crazy" because he was trying to warn us that there was a demon which hunted after everyone which knew it existed, but he couldn't communicate that without also making us aware of the demon which was after him, and he refused to allow us to discover what was going on lest the demon seek us too. "Nothing's after me! Nothing!"

...Whilst refusing to dwell in any building with a door or window.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 02, 2021, 05:15:01 am

So, we have a bit of a loudmouth player in our campaign. He has a tendency to just sort of barge into any ongoing scene and contribute nothing at high volume. Occasionally straight up talking over someone else in order to tell the DM (or the table at large) about some new feature of his own character that he's just realized, sometimes accompanied by a full and unabridged reading of a spell description that he's just discovered.

Already we're off to a great start. Mechanically, his character is a bit borked as well, as he's a full cleric and I don't think has ever had Bless prepared, instead opting to use his spell slots on casting Guiding Bolt with all the accuracy 14 WIS can provide you at level 6. He *has* discovered Spirit Guardians though, so even with his highly questionable tactics he tends to deal a lion's share of the damage in fights with multiple opponents (and then be extraordinarily pleased with himself).


Normally, I don't really have that much of a problem with him. Sure, him interrupting me, trying to butt into my character's scenes, and afterwards thinking that he was the star of the show is one thing... But last night there was a curious little quip out of him that's left me having a bit of a ponder.

In the session where my character joined this campaign, we traveled out into the desert and ended up falling into an underground warren/hive of beasties, with smaller ones coming straight out of holes in the walls and surrounding us. I had put together a "defensive swashbuckler" with a shield, and as this was also my first time playing with this character I didn't really have a great idea of what all I could do with him to contribute to combat. But when the DM announced that another critter was making its way out of one of the holes near me, I asked how large the hole itself was, and whether or not I could plug it by just shoving my shield over the opening. He said yes, and instead of a fully active enemy attacking our rear I just had to make an opposed athletics check. While not necessarily a "defining moment" for my character, it did show to the other players at least that I was capable of some small amount of lateral thinking in order to solve things in an interesting way. And it did end up being kind of an important note in that battle as a whole.


Last night we ventured into a new underground network, and the loudmouth player was commenting on how if he saw little holes in the walls down here too he'd get flashbacks to that time in the desert, and that he was "ready to plug them with his shield again".

He seems to have rewritten the narrative in his head so that he was the one who came up with that idea. I... I dunno man. I figured I must have misheard him, but I checked with a couple of the other players and they got the impression that's what he meant too. It's kinda surreal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 02, 2021, 06:10:07 am

Major main character syndrome. How experienced are they with ttrpgs? I've had three players like that before, both were edgy chuunis but after talking them through it they grew out of it over time. The third of them however has never grown out of it, becoming calcified in their spotlight huffing ways, but at least we are great friends irl. But a corrective memory? That is something I've never had to deal with in game

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 02, 2021, 01:57:06 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on November 02, 2021, 06:10:07 am

How experienced are they with ttrpgs?

Technically? About 13+ years. One of the other players, an eternal DM who's acting as DnD grandfather for the rest of the group, mentioned that they both started at the same time.

He added that only one of them really learned much of anything during that period.


He's an interesting chap, to be sure. I've been in parties with people who felt that they should be the hero and muscled their way to the front of the line, but in order to do said muscling you kinda have to be aware of the fact that the other people are there. This guy is legitimately oblivious to half the stuff going on around him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 04, 2021, 10:27:07 am

Kagus I don't know whether to laugh or cry

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 04, 2021, 06:10:15 pm

13 years - boy he must have had quite some adventures if he remembers everything the party did as /his own character/ doing them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 10, 2021, 08:49:30 pm

So I've decided to post another meandering write up of an idea for that dark fantasy setting I posted some bits of a while back. My D&D group is likely going to be playing another game by the same GM, in the same setting as our last few games, so I won't be getting a chance to actually play with the setting properly for a while, so writing ideas down is all I've got for the time being.

Pre-face is that I don't much care for Mind Flayers, I find a lot of their fluff uninspired, them being essentially cthulhoid zombie vampires, as a result I spent a while thinking about what aspects I think are worth keeping for a re-imagining of them. It's honestly not a lot. In any case, for your perusal, I present;


The Alchemist Lords of Tarrik, and the Elixer of Life

Tarrik is something of a black sheep among the provinces of the Aurogentum empire, it's people pallid, docile and artless, the nobility corrupt and decadent even by the standards of the imperial gentry and the land polluted and poisoned by magical and industrial waste. Despite this the province is immensely wealthy and influential, powerful enough to defy the empire's state religion and openly engage in arts widely considered blasphemous and heretical without censure.

The source of this power and wealth is the alchemical and magical talents of the Alchemist Lords, the ruling elite of Tarrik. These scholar-kings have long delved into the forbidden arcane arts, striving for power, knowledge and immortality. Their experiments have resulted in potions, tinctures and balms that can heal grievous injuries, regrow body parts, extend human life, as well as darker products such as potions capable rendering humans complacent and biddable, weaponised toxins, pain enhancers and all manner of addictive substances. These flow forth into the empire in exchange for gold and favours, for all but the most pious nobles and priests are eager to buy the creations of the mad intellects of Tarrik, for who does not wish to forestall death, to regain the glories of youth, or mould the minds of others?

The greatest achievement of the lords of Tarrik is the Elixer of Life, a grandiose term for a costly and disfiguring transmutative potion they created several centuries ago. The elixer extends the human lifespan to several centuries, some of those who have taken it have lived to be over five hundred years old, rivaling the lifespan of even elves, as well as increasing the mental and mystical abilities of the imbiber. The elixer is not without it's downsides however, the subject mutates over several years, their skin becoming rubbery or scaled, and their mouth and sometimes entire head changing to more closely resemble the jaws of a lamprey, the beak of a squid or the entire head of an aquatic lifeform. The only commonality is that all possess a long, thin tongue, sharp like a razor and flexible like an eel, able to pierce through skin, flesh and bone. In addition the resulting horror becomes dependant on the consumption of brain matter, spinal tissue and cerebral fluid, failing to consume such substances on a regular basis causes the individual to starve as readily as any normal man would if denied food and drink.

It would be easy for the Alchemist Lords to devolve into cannibals, feeding on their citizens to prolong their own perverse existence, but such practices are considered gauche by the majority of Tarrik's nobility. Those who have drunk the elixer and remain in good standing instead choose to dine on the neural tissue of animals, expending vast quantities of money on importing animals from the far reaches of the empire and beyond to consume in extravagant orgies of consumption. A feast can see thousands of animals, songbirds, tropical beasts, noble stags, mighty bears, mice fed on grapes and honey, live fish brought from the ocean, all brought to the estates of the monstrous alchemists to be butchered or served alive, their spines torn out and sucked clean of nerve tissue, their brains plucked from their skulls and their cranial fluids served in opulent chalices. The flesh, skin and bones then rendered into alchemical reagents or donated as a miscellaneous slop to the normal men and women who of Tarrik.

Tarrik itself is rotting, the land poisoned by the waste products of the nobility's experiments, the industrial practices needed to keep them supplied with glassware and metal tools, and by the copious quantities of garbage resulting from their ruinous importation of animals. The streets of most towns and cities are thick with animal waste, churned by the passage of a near unending stream of wagons and hooves, bringing livestock and raw materials to Tarrik and shipping potions out. The rivers and lakes are thick with mats of algae, and shimmer with toxic runoff, the sky black with soot and alchemical fumes. Much of the local wildlife has been driven to near extinction over the past few centuries, hunted in droves to feed the appetities of the lords of the land.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on November 10, 2021, 10:32:26 pm

In other news, I just DMed my second session of SWRPG the other day! Everyone had a blast and I am feeling very confident about DMing now. Still learning a lot of the in and outs of SWRPG, but it's fun for sure.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 11, 2021, 11:24:18 am

May the dice be with you!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 23, 2021, 06:01:12 pm

Looking for some advice/ideas.

The characters in a (as yet hypothetical) campaign start out in a town cut off from the world, but the town is their home. To get the players used to the place the characters have spent their lives, I want some low-level sidequests for the townspeople. Aside from "kill a basement full of rats/spiders", what kinds of things might people want/need done by low-level characters?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 23, 2021, 06:13:34 pm

I'm fond of a family feud boiling over and needing de-escalation by some adventurers (or a love triangle where two people are fighting each other for the affections of a third) - great way to tie them to the place - let the players come up with past events and friendships with some of these characters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 23, 2021, 07:46:01 pm

There's been [critter or monster] sightings lately and they need extra hands to help watch the [pastured animals] overnight for a night

Quote from: delphonso on November 23, 2021, 06:13:34 pm

I'm fond of a family feud boiling over and needing de-escalation by some adventurers (or a love triangle where two people are fighting each other for the affections of a third) - great way to tie them to the place - let the players come up with past events and friendships with some of these characters.

This is good stuff

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on November 24, 2021, 12:21:16 pm

Help goodie martin make some cookies for this years harvest festival.

Fetch water for the horses.

Find out why master thompson has not been attending mass.

Investigate the seedy rumors about a teenage couple

Seek the cleverwoman's advice about what Sonya Shlottermeyer should name her newborn.

Obtain a local herb for said cleverwoman, for old lady agatha's rhumetism.

Investigate why the well water has recently gone rancid.

Help the neighbors make clothes for their children before winter (to avoid being the focus of superstitious omen)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on November 24, 2021, 12:40:56 pm

Find out who killed Laura Palmer.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 24, 2021, 12:49:48 pm

Farmer brown's sheep have been going missing, he suspects the local goblins or whatever but doesn't have real proof.  If the party actually bothers to talk to the gobbos, they're actually innocent in the matter.  It's actually one of the townsfolk or neighbors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 24, 2021, 12:54:51 pm

Three youths are hanging around outside the tavern. Enthralled by your status as adventurers, they implore you to leverage your adventuring savvy (and older age) in getting them some swords so that they too can begin their careers as mighty heroes! Also some beer while you're at it, as they're not allowed to buy that yet either. They've scraped together the funds for both.

This was a "quest" in Baldur's Gate 2 that had a few different mostly-irrelevant outcomes depending on what you chose to do. Obliging them on both counts resulted in running into them when you go to explore the local cave, where they're faced off against a lone gibberling but are too drunk to recognize what it is and promptly flee in intoxicated panic from the "dragon".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on November 24, 2021, 04:13:05 pm

Quote from: delphonso on November 23, 2021, 06:13:34 pm

I'm fond of a family feud boiling over and needing de-escalation by some adventurers (or a love triangle where two people are fighting each other for the affections of a third) - great way to tie them to the place - let the players come up with past events and friendships with some of these characters.

Good stuff, and works just as well (better?) with a population cut off from everything.

Quote from: Kagus on November 24, 2021, 12:54:51 pm

Three youths are hanging around outside the tavern. Enthralled by your status as adventurers, they implore you to leverage your adventuring savvy (and older age) in getting them some swords so that they too can begin their careers as mighty heroes! Also some beer while you're at it, as they're not allowed to buy that yet either. They've scraped together the funds for both.

This was a "quest" in Baldur's Gate 2 that had a few different mostly-irrelevant outcomes depending on what you chose to do. Obliging them on both counts resulted in running into them when you go to explore the local cave, where they're faced off against a lone gibberling but are too drunk to recognize what it is and promptly flee in intoxicated panic from the "dragon".

I remembered that quest. Good times, and nobody died. Also, the annoying guy in each game that you were allowed to kill without a hit to alignment.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 24, 2021, 04:30:27 pm

Noober didn't give you alignment points? I guess he was his times' variant of that Mass Effect journalist

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 24, 2021, 07:07:29 pm

You did get something like 5,000xp if you weathered his barrage of inanity for a long enough though.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on November 24, 2021, 07:23:18 pm

Why it's cut off from the world can be a good foundation to build off of. There's a pretty neat arc in a litrpg thing (Delve) I've read through a few times that has a town very literally cut off from the rest of the world due to an ancient defensive shield -- some of the sudden logistics issues they find themselves dealing with is not dying of thirst and not boiling alive due to all the trapped heat, on top of a number of other things.

Low level stuff in that sort of case would be hauling water barrels or lighting torches around defensible areas or somethin', dealing with smaller issues while bigger names deal with major ones. Work with simple, reasonable things abnormally capable youths(?) would be expected to be tasked with or find themselves taking up in an emergency.

You'd use that to sneak in bits of world building (monsters can spawn in darkness, there's ancient magical arrays, etc.) and dial in how much realism you care about caring about. The trauma and damage of being stuck like that for a while would be an excellent excuse to get your critters out of town afterwards, refugee escort an easy travel hook.

Substitute as necessary for whatever reason your starter town is cut off. There's lots of room to play with something like that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 25, 2021, 05:39:34 am

Silly idea rattling around my brain, The Conspiracy. A group of druids and other shapeshifters who can turn into ravens or swarms of ravens and act as a spies guild/cult. Individuals refer to one another as The Conspiracy, refer to the themselves as The Conspiracy, and the organisation as The Conspiracy when dealing with outsiders. Few known the actual goals of The Conspiracy, having joined to promote personal goals but being given tasks that also further a purpose beyond themselves.

Something of a slightly goofy but also creepy depending on execution idea for a thieves guild type of organisation, which a PC could belong to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 25, 2021, 06:50:36 am

They have an extremist splinter group who shapeshift into crows and are known as the Murder

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on November 25, 2021, 09:09:00 am

A wiser, governing body of owl shapeshifters named The Parliament

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 25, 2021, 10:11:18 am

So our campaign's DM is taking a break this Monday, and our normally scheduled programming is being replaced by a one-shot headed up by the "grandfather DM".

He plopped down a list of rules and regs for the one-shot (which will be a level 10 adventure in some old dwarven ruins underground) on Tuesday, which included a couple noteworthy points:

---

Know your character
I don't want people to spend time looking up what their class/race is or does during combat, as this wastes the time of the other players and mine as the DM. Prepare a defined list of things your character does during combat, preferably 2-3 items, and have it ready so you don't have to spend time thinking about what you're going to do on a given turn.

Dodge rule
If I feel that you're taking too long to decide on what to do, your character takes the Dodge action that turn. This is to keep combat moving at a reasonable pace.

---

Now, while generally reasonable requests, the wording and tone used was apparently enough to scare one of the players off the session, as they didn't feel like they'd be able to make/upgrade a new character in time for session while also being very familiar with their mechanics.

...so I decided to make a character who would be very sure of what they would be doing every round, and ended up with a gnome Zealot 5/Phantom 5. And he's... Very slightly ridiculous.

DM allowed us one rare and two uncommon items for our characters, with the caveat that only one ability score modifier (gauntlets of ogre strength, amulet of health etc.) would be allowed, as having too many of these on one person kinda breaks the game.

Okay. Fair. No worries.


...anyway, this character is a tiny tank with advantage on 5/6 saves (and +10 modifier to the 6th), with +9 to hit on two attacks with advantage, and first one to hit deals 1d4+3d6+7+(1d6+2 necrotic) damage. With an additional automatic 2d6 going to someone else within 30 feet.

Also 105 hitpoints, and if I get hit with a piercing/bludgeoning/slashing attack I can reduce it to 1/4 damage. If they can hit my 20 AC, that is. And catch me with my 35' movespeed and bonus action dash.


Sure, there's a lot of nutty bullshit happening at level 10, and this is by no means my most munchkinny/minmaxed build... But I still think it's kinda silly. We'll see if it gets cleared by the DM or if he vetoes it :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 28, 2021, 05:49:32 pm

Update! I got up today to find a new message in the discord that the DM had apparently put out in the middle of the night. This message explained the basic concept of the one-shot, and informed us that we were all hired in via the Adventurer Guild to delve down into uncontrolled territory in order to recover treasure and bounties.

This would have been useful information to know before I made a character who's a heavily disturbed escaped slave with no motivation that would make sense in that scenario.

I tried airing a couple ideas of tie-ins that might work better for explaining why my character would be there, at which point I was informed that "Backstory doesn't matter this time, it's just a straight dungeon crawl with little room for RP".


...okay, that definitely would have been useful knowledge to have earlier than the day before the session, especially given that I've already made a damn character and everything leading up to this has been him talking about the importance of the story and how certain things will be done in order to keep the narrative and its flow going smoothly, giving me the (apparently false) impression that story and RP would have some amount of importance here.


Strongly considering swapping characters last minute to the incredibly stupid crit build I've been toying with. Which, given his other house rule of "The extra damage dice for a critical hit are not rolled, but simply give their max value" would easily be over 80+ damage on a crit. He'd need that plot armor he's told us he'll be using on certain "narrative-important nemeses".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on November 28, 2021, 06:24:15 pm

Hey, if it's just a dungeon crawl, may as well use some crazy build.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 30, 2021, 04:54:46 am

"Know your character well", it was said.

"I don't want any long delays breaking up combat as you look stuff up", it was said.


The very first turn, and our loud player with the corrective memory ground everything to a standstill with his complete lack of understanding regarding his character, the houserules of the game, and basic addition. Surprising absolutely no one.

Even after a long guided talk through his Paladin/Hexlock mechanics and how they work together, he still doesn't understand how half the character works and is therefore playing it at vastly reduced capacity (he thinks Eldritch Smite adds a single 1d8, regardless of slot level, and believes that he can't use Divine Smite anymore since he has "swapped it out for" Eldritch). At this point though, we've just kind of quietly agreed to go along with it in order to keep the game moving.

Also I have a better command of what his +tohit and save DCs are than he does. So there were multiple occasions where he was asked to provide one or the other, started scrolling through his character sheet, and I just answered.


It was still an interesting session, certainly! I put in the last hit on a stone golem by slapping it with a weapon that cannot damage it, an umber hulk landed a crit on me (remember the house rule about treating bonus crit dice as though they rolled max? Yeah) that ended up dealing a total of 3 damage, and said hulk ended up confusing me so I wound up taking a 31hp chunk out of Mr. Loudmouth who was rolling around on the floor being effective at the time.

Me: "I'm assuming a 27 hits?"

Him: "I'll use my reaction to cast Shield!"

Other player: "...you have 20 AC"

Him: "Yeah, and now I cast Shield!"

Other player: "Shield only gives 5 AC, that's 25 total. He still hits"

Him: "Whuh...uh?"

DM: "Well, now you've spent a slot on learning about how your spells work. Moving on"


The session wrapped up with me dangling over a precipice in the loving arms of a roper, the conga line of giant spiders coming into view, the drow party mostly vanished into the shadows (except the mage, who is currently snoozing on some minecart tracks), and what looked kinda like an ankheg coming out of the ceiling. Also the floor mimic woke up.

Now, RAW, I could actually just wriggle out from the roper and survive the plunge easily, because 5e. But the DM doesn't really like the idea of fall damage capping out at 20d6, and I'm inclined to agree :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 30, 2021, 06:04:52 am

It tickles my funny bone when I think of the silly things you could pull off with RAW. Things like vertical distances not mattering; a roper that is 5ft away from you horizontally but 1,000,000,000,000 ft away from you vertically is perfectly fine in pulling you across the galaxy

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on November 30, 2021, 08:43:34 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 30, 2021, 04:54:46 am

, and believes that he can't use Divine Smite anymore since he has "swapped it out for" Eldritch).

...what?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on November 30, 2021, 09:05:36 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on November 30, 2021, 06:04:52 am

It tickles my funny bone when I think of the silly things you could pull off with RAW. Things like vertical distances not mattering; a roper that is 5ft away from you horizontally but 1,000,000,000,000 ft away from you vertically is perfectly fine in pulling you across the galaxy

Well that's not really RAW. Its just diagonals that don't matter RAW.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on November 30, 2021, 12:29:45 pm

I don't trust anybody who uses the term RAW, they're always gonna try to pull some goofy bullshit that doesn't even work by their own standards

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on November 30, 2021, 12:43:07 pm

I prefer my rules medium rare

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on November 30, 2021, 12:51:12 pm

Quote from: scriver on November 30, 2021, 08:43:34 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 30, 2021, 04:54:46 am

, and believes that he can't use Divine Smite anymore since he has "swapped it out for" Eldritch).

...what?

Yeah, it could be he's just making a conscious decision and is expressing it in a very odd way, but he keeps saying he's "Swapped out" his divine smite with eldritch smite. And certainly, he has yet to use a normal smite a single time, instead opting to spend a pact slot on adding +1d8 to his attack.

Frankly, it would not surprise me in the slightest if he thinks he has somehow upgraded/exchanged his paladin's smite with the warlock's invocation, he is very easily confused by... Most things.

Including the fact that he seems to think he rolls an extra +1d4 on damage rolls, because he's a Hexblade. He also hasn't used his Hexblade's curse yet, as I don't think it's really occurred to him yet that it isn't a passive effect (despite having been told this multiple times during the session).

Quote from: Cthulhu on November 30, 2021, 12:29:45 pm

I don't trust anybody who uses the term RAW, they're always gonna try to pull some goofy bullshit that doesn't even work by their own standards

Or we're trying to acknowledge that the rules as they are presented in the book are occasionally kind of stupid, and so try to work off of a more sensible interpretation of what the rule is supposed to do rather than how it's specifically written.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 01, 2021, 03:36:32 am

Quote from: Kagus on November 30, 2021, 12:51:12 pm

Yeah, it could be he's just making a conscious decision and is expressing it in a very odd way, but he keeps saying he's "Swapped out" his divine smite with eldritch smite. And certainly, he has yet to use a normal smite a single time, instead opting to spend a pact slot on adding +1d8 to his attack.

Frankly, it would not surprise me in the slightest if he thinks he has somehow upgraded/exchanged his paladin's smite with the warlock's invocation, he is very easily confused by... Most things.

While this sounds like he's just confused himself, I think you could steal this for another character who swaps out their patron for their pact master. Thematically betraying their deity

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 01, 2021, 10:22:52 am

A character idea I've thought about doing before is a Celestial Warlock with Eldritch Smite who wanted to be a paladin but was very confused about how to actually become one.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 25, 2021, 06:23:39 pm

I'm thinking of putting together a "backup character" for the main campaign I'm in, both as a potential replacement should my primary dude die (although I'm not particularly worried about that happening) and as just a swap-in should I feel like playing something else.

While working out potential concepts for that, I bumped into a couple gimmicks that could be interesting to muck around with.

First up is a front-line Fathomlock, primarily using blade ward and the guardian coil damage reduction to make the most out of agathys. Of course, in order to be much of a tank you need to provide some amount of threat, and while spending each turn on blade ward does crimp damage output by quite a bit, cloak of flies can provide some consistent damage along with a little bit of slapping from the tentacle. War caster can also let you do a little something if you haven't already used your reaction on damage reduction (this combines fairly well with toll the dead, since they'll automatically take poison damage at the start of their turn, ensuring you get to use the better damage dice). An interesting combo, if perhaps a bit lackluster right at the 7-9 range where we're going to be for a while. (Celestilock with flaming sphere could dish out more damage, and healing is always nice, but it gets a little bit messy).

Next is the delightful stupidity of a Hexsinger. 2 Hexlock/6+ Bladesinger, for the only slightly MAD combo of consistently getting off 4 attacks per round at no resource cost (except ammo). I was kinda hoping to do something a bit more up-front and tanky, given that the team as it stands could really benefit from that, but this is definitely entertaining.


Could also just go Ancestral Barb with a polearm, and make enemies very sad. ...barblock could potentially be stanky janky combo, with built-in resistance and 2d6 damage reduction reaction if going that route. Taking a buff round for Agathys+rage would be risky though, as unless you do some weird shit like provoking an AoO and having it land, your rage would end immediately.

Alternatively-alternatively, 2-3 Barb/6+ Genielock. Agathys would be less useful, thanks to the introduction of flight, but going for a marid patron would give you blur for handily canceling out the advantage ranged attackers would otherwise have against your reckless flying ass. Less of a tank, really, but definitely quite the sight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 27, 2021, 10:27:52 am

Gotten an idea for an urban game oriented D&D PC.

Human Mastermind Rogue with either a 2 level dip into Shepherd Druid, or more ideally the Eldritch Adept feat for the Beast Speech invocation, and the Noble (Knight) background with the two free hirelings being a manservant and a maid. Strength and Con as dump stats in favour of solid Dex and mental stats, especially Wis and Cha. Skills likewise being oriented towards animal handling, being insightful and persuasive.

The character is an elderly widow, well off but largely ousted from the social circles a woman of her standing would normally be in as a result of her relatives pushing her out of the social heirarchy following the death of her husband, who depending on time period was either a noble, a wealthy guild member, or an industrialist. As a result she is rather bitter towards her ostensible peers, finding comfort in the company of urban vermin like pidgeons, rats and stray cats/dogs, and helping the lower classes in struggles against the wealthy because, 'they may be bastards, but at least they're honest about being bastards.'

Has a lot of cynical wisdom, like saying that a young woman should always have a knife hidden in their skirt and so on.

In combat mostly takes the Help action, providing Advantage to other characters, but will open a fight with a knife to the gut if an opponent is standing near her. Befriends various forms of vermin and asks them to do favours for her like stealing keys, spying, eating bodies, distracting guards and so on. Her motivation for doing things is largely spite, but also a desire to help people who are genuinely decent people when they fall afoul of people who are assholes like her.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on December 27, 2021, 05:11:04 pm

Could potentially go a few levels into some flavor of Warlock and pick up not only Beast Speech but also Pact of the Chain for a more permanent animal buddy who can even have an easier time doing things on their own thanks to invocations and the pact's quirks. If that's a direction you'd be interested in going.

Archfey patron's Fey Presence can let you actively charm urban critters so they'll actually listen to you when you talk beastily to them. Otherwise not a lot of obvious thematic patron choices, if you even want to acknowledge the patron.

Depending on how bitter and cynical she is about the upper classes and the status quo, could potentially explain "teaming up" with a patron of some sort to ruffle a few feathers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 30, 2021, 07:07:34 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 27, 2021, 05:11:04 pm

Could potentially go a few levels into some flavor of Warlock and pick up not only Beast Speech but also Pact of the Chain for a more permanent animal buddy who can even have an easier time doing things on their own thanks to invocations and the pact's quirks. If that's a direction you'd be interested in going.

Archfey patron's Fey Presence can let you actively charm urban critters so they'll actually listen to you when you talk beastily to them. Otherwise not a lot of obvious thematic patron choices, if you even want to acknowledge the patron.

Depending on how bitter and cynical she is about the upper classes and the status quo, could potentially explain "teaming up" with a patron of some sort to ruffle a few feathers.

My preference is to minimise magical abilities as much as possible for the concept, as she's essentially supposed to be an old woman who isn't special except for her fondness for the vermin of the city and being decently knowledgeable, manipulative and knowing that a knife in the gut works best when twisted. Class features are much more concept agnostic than spellcasting is.

If speaking with animals was possible as an all the time ability without any magic (Not counting gnomes or firbolgs) it would be ideal, but D&D was very averse to giving people always on minor magic-like effects until recently for some reason.



On another note, I have a weird idea for an NPC/nation. A Hill Giant queen, who rules her clan by virtue of enormous girth and beauty (which to hill giants means more girth) and rules several other races of monstrous humanoids and giants by virtue of political marriage to form a small kingdom.

Spoiler: wall of text (click to show/hide)

Hothea the Massive, the magnificent, radiant, globulous and pendulous queen of the hillclans. Taught the power of alliances and marriages by her mother, who learned them from a wandering bard she decided not to eat, Hothea chose to ally with her neighbouring hill giant clans by marrying the sons of the other chieftesses. Then she decided to marry the chiefs of the ogre tribes nearby. Then the wandering ettins, the orc warlords, the goblins, the other giant races and so on.

Many of Hothea's allies intended to try and direct her growing horde of barbarians to their own ends, only marrying her because it seemed the easiest way to usurp her, but wound up unable to actually steer the course of the growing tide. Repulsive as many of Hothea's husbands find her, she finds most of them repulsive in turn, the physical qualities hill giants and the other races finding desirable being quite divergent, and as such most of them are allowed to keep to themselves and have their own wives and consorts while still being considered part of the ruling family.

As this web of marriages and alliances grew it rapidly outpaced the ability or desire of Hothea to actually rule, resulting in her delegating the vast majority of it to her non-hill giant husbands, while being content to remain in what passed for a capitol gorging herself on tributed foods and mating with those among her spouses she actually finds attractive.

The goblins, orcs and other races in this alliance found themselves in a strange situation. Many of their leaders were now technically family, and covered by taboos against kinslaying, which has never really stopped anyone, but it did still make them hesitate long enough for some among them to form an actual plan to make the most of this new opportunity. A handful of Hothea's husbands of various races banded together and arranged themselves and their peers into a form of nobility, tasking each of the husbands with the ruling of a parcel of land and the acquisition of tribute, ostensibly to be given as dowries to Hothea and to further the goals of the united clans and tribes, with the position of leadership below Hothea being taken by a council of her most trusted husbands who would govern all the others.

So the governance of the realm is largely done by orcs, goblins and the more intelligent races of giants who have fallen under the sway of the young nation, but Hothea is still symbolically married to any male leader of note found in the land. Indeed she has never even spoken to most of her husbands now, any new clan or tribe of creatures being offered a marriage in name by one of her underlings in exchange for joining the kingdom's borders. Greedy and warlike, the many spouses of Hothea are always pushing to expand the borders, raid neighbors or settle internal conflicts, but the ruling council is content to let them engage in their petty squabbles as long as tribute flows to them, and Hothea is content to let them rule in her name so long as tribute flows to her in turn.

So fat on tribute has she become that the hill giants have come to worship Hothea as a sort of demigod, the most beautiful thing in the world, and some of the other races worship her for other reasons, seeing her as the avatar of gods and demon lords of destruction and consumption, or as a literal mountain that walks (not that she walks anymore). This serves her regents council well, for they can speak on her behalf to those who worship her, directing them to quash any other husbands who defy the council, or to wage war on any who would refuse the honour of marrying Hothea and thus being incorporated into the kingdom.

The borders of this ever expanding realm are beginning to draw close to what could be called the civilised realms, running into the foothills of a dwarven mountain kingdom. So far there has been little interaction beyond skirmishes between the dwarves and barbarous raiding parties, but Hothea's husbands are bound to be looking towards the mountains, and the lands beyond, with ambition.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 31, 2021, 02:09:10 pm

Hahaha, I'm having some great fun with my m8s and I never expected to. One of my friends is honestly a terrible fucking DM. The problem is, he sets up great scenarios, great characters, great roleplay - then swings unavoidable fights against creatures with 10,000 HP that takes 3 bloody hours to resolve. We call this the Mugabe problem, because he induces hyperinflation with all of our numbers. He gives a player a weapon that does 1d40 damage, he then gives the enemies 1d40 hit dice to compensate, in an incestuous arms race. We talked about this and he made it clear he would never change his ways, so I decided to just leave; still continuing to play with him as a player, but never as a DM. After a year and a half he comes back to me over a lunch like a scorned ex lover and very sincerely states that it's just not the same without me. I decided I could come back to his campaign, but not as a player, but as NPCs for the party. I've played scoundrels and rogues, rich merchants who caused hyperinflation in the economy to complete the Mugabe motif, enemy bosses and so on.

One of my favourites was someone who seemed so obviously, incredibly evil and witchlike - and indeed, they were a witch, but they never cast a spell and they never did anything evil. They were just sinister, but altruistic. Red eyes in the darkness watching over the city, making sure everyone is safe. Misunderstood they were! Carbuncle the witch. In this setting magic is supposed to be rare (despite its abundance in game), so I had very much fun RP'ing Carbuncle's magic such as... Conjuring a rabbit from a hat. Making a coin appear from behind an ear. Turning a stick into a boquet of flowers. Despite her ability to cast great spells, Carbuncle managed to go through the entire campaign never casting a spell, but is now being hunted by witches convinced she is a powerful mage because the actual spellcasters in the party destroyed hell and the blame is unfairly falling upon her. Life is unfair like that.

A new favourite of the party is someone called Robin. Whereas Carbuncle oozed sinister and fell intent, but was actually a moral saint guiding the party towards a brighter path, Robin is disarming and charming - a one armed child who speaks like a Blue's Clues or Balamory character. "Hello! Will you be my friend?" ..."I don't think we should do that, that would be very naughty." ..."Life is a cage and death is an adventure. Let's go on an adventure friends! :D"
Despite that, he is very clearly a powerful necromancer taking orders from his soul jar'd ancestor to resurrect hell and cause chaos/pandemonium/war/strife amongst the mortal world. I worked with the DM together to make this monstrosity a lvl30 wizard, and it was only after I started reviewing epic spells and 10th lvl+ spells that I realised just how this character was much less an NPC and more a plot point with a personality.

When I designed them I made sure they'd have 30 HP so even with all of their epic boons and other bullshit, it would be a trivial matter for the party to kill this evil necromancer child. Unexpectedly, the party's paladin has taken an incredible liking to them. Whilst the bard is an "end justifies the means" sort of person - they destroyed the entire afterlife to take hell's demons down with it, unfortunately also eliminating all souls - good, evil and in between, the paladin has been struggling to stay on a moral path. For every good action they take they've made three panicked immoral decisions to try and cover up their mounting list of crimes. The bard has been trying to correct this for a while, and had some help when we had a new player playing some werewolf rogue who had a nice little storyline about standing up to authority for what's right and for yourself despite not living up to familial expectations - really swell stuff.

But the moment this evil child shows up, with very little persuasion the paladin has gone full deathknight. There was a hilarious encounter where !not!Robin Hood and his merry men attacked us because a party of a necromancer, werewolf, diabolically augmented paladin with a normal bard looked like an evil cult holding the bard hostage. Whilst the party tried to explain the miscommunication, the paladin launched an assault. In character I took cover in a grave to resume collecting bodies for a meat colossus project, out of character I legit had to ask my friend "are you seriously going to attack the merry men?"

I did not expect him to align his morals immediately with this child of armageddon!!! xD

We managed to end the fight peaceably enough with only one death, but dear Lord. Right now the DM and I are mulling over whether to use a 10th lvl bullshit soulblight spell that causes a zombie cascade. We figured it would fit in right at home with all the other plotlines going on in the background - there is a hyperdimensional witch cold war. A plot to assassinate the god emperor of the humans. A druidic plot to annihilate the new technologies (which are actually ancient technologies). The entire world is a time traveling giant seamine. The blacksun deathcrawl entity.

It's like he took every horrible idea we could come up with and kept smashing them together until they had a negative integer overflow and became fun again

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 31, 2021, 02:29:15 pm

very good

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on December 31, 2021, 06:27:06 pm

Hell yes. Sometimes you need to see where the game is going and just lean into it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 05, 2022, 12:42:33 pm

Rolling an idea for a horror monster around my head.

Basic concept is a monster that hunts children, which I'm currently thinking of as being some sort of primordial horror, it kills because it enjoys to rather than because it gets any kind of meaningful benefit. Image I have in mind is a long animal like torso covered in tumours and cysts that ooze black fluid that wriggles with worms, head is halfway between a human and animal skull, with stretched torn skin exposing wet muscle, more black fluid oozes from it's mouth and nose, coughs frequently, walks on eight pairs of legs that are jointed like an insect's but end in human hands. The appearance is largely irrelevant though.

Premise for a scenario involving it is that a century or two prior to the events of the game it was confronted during it's rampages across the land by a saint, who I'm currently thinking would be named Carolyn or something along those lines, and was immediately soothed by her presence, becoming docile and calm. The families of it's victims and the knights who had been trying to slay it found that it wouldn't fight back anymore, but that none of their weapons could cause it lasting damage. If separated from Saint Carolyn it became violent in it's efforts to return to her, so they eventually just had to let it follow her around like a pet. For the next few decades Carolyn devoted herself to the guardianship of the beast, keeping it from harming others, and gathered a following of lay clergy devoted to helping those it had victimised in the past, and to caring for Carolyn herself during her time as the keeper of the monster. When Carolyn passed away, the monster vanished from the church that had grown up around the two of them.

But the horror isn't really gone, it was interred in a mausoleum alongside Saint Carolyn, waiting for her to come back. Over the time since it's imprisonment it has become desperate in it's need to be near the saint again, and decided that if killing children brought Carolyn to it in the first place to stop it, killing children again will bring Carolyn back to stop it once again. It's slow at the moment, killing only a handful of children at a time before returning to the mausoleum to show them to the decaying remains of the saint, where before it was like a cloud of death that swept over the land, snatching infants from cradles and children from the fields by the dozens.

The priests above are mostly unaware of it's return, but a few of the very oldest priests still have vague memories of the monster buried below their church, but due to being isolated in their extreme age they aren't aware of the new killings taking place. Most of the locals and younger priests are assuming it's something more... normal, like wolves or a serial killer or something.


I'm not sure what, if anything, should be able to kill it. Maybe being stabbed with one of the saint's ribs or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on January 05, 2022, 04:24:14 pm

Assuming we ignore the obvious teleportation solutions like the banishment spell, maybe you have to venture out into the world and find a new saint that can trigger the effect again. Perhaps they are the reincarnation of Carolyn or something.

Alternatively, it might be necessary to dupe the monster into thinking that somebody else is Carolyn (with the spell disguise person perhaps) and have them be their new guardian. Maybe nobody remembers what Carolyn looks like anymore and our heros have to go questing in order to find something like a painting to use as a reference for the disguise.

If you really want to murder it for good, I believe the solution should be somehow tied to how the monster was created in the first place. It would be something you would have to make up, and it won't likely connect to the Carolyn backstory very much unless you make it that way, but I think you need to better understand your monster before you can figure out how to kill it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 05, 2022, 06:07:38 pm

My thought on where the monster comes from is that it's basically one of those things that's always existed, a physical manifestation of the darkness before creation and the silence that will fall when everything crumbles to dust. It is death and fear. It is cot death, it is stillbirth, it is the accidents that befall children lost in the woods.

My immediate thoughts are that it just can't be stopped now that it's starting up again, but that's a bit of a downer for a game idea even when going for a Lovecraftian vibe, so ideally it needs to be slain or contained in some fashion so that it isn't going to keep murdering a handful of children every week.

Oh! I have an idea, a bit macabre and morbid perhaps, a cage fashioned from Saint Carolyn's bones. It won't break them, because it can't bring itself to harm her even in death, but it also won't last forever because even well preserved bones eventually crumble to dust, and the string and wire holding the cage together will break sooner still.

Another course would be that someone has to do the same thing that Carolyn did to calm it the first time, something which basically no one else ever managed during her lifetime. Show this monster genuine compassion. My thought is that Carolyn was exceptional in her caring and accepting nature, willing to face down the beast that hunted children and killed anyone who tried to stop it, and was willing to be kind to it even after all it had done. The kind of woman who would make the Grim Reaper or Satan a cup of tea and ask how they were feeling and genuinely mean it. If someone, anyone really, can do the same for it again then they basically are Carolyn, a new Carolyn. Like the old stories about a virgin maiden being able to tame a unicorn, which would otherwise kill or flee from any humans it met.


Banishment also wouldn't work, as it's not from another plane so it would just return. Gate or plane shift would work, but only for a while because it would eventually find a portal back, even if it took a few centuries.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 06, 2022, 04:50:41 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on January 05, 2022, 06:07:38 pm

Banishment also wouldn't work, as it's not from another plane so it would just return. Gate or plane shift would work, but only for a while because it would eventually find a portal back, even if it took a few centuries.

Gate would be a nice one. Could really lean into it being a grim dark heroic martyrdom without the consequences being so unstoppably grim

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 06, 2022, 05:03:30 pm

You could go a step further, finding the dead saint as a petitioner (or even angel) in the outer planes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: wierd on January 07, 2022, 12:36:07 pm

What about the hyper-planar annihilation that happens when a portable hole is placed into a bag of holding? (And vise-versa)

Lure the creature into the portable hole, then puck it up.

Devise a rube-goldberg contraption (or use a golem?) To put the hole into a bag of holding, AFTER the party has reached minimum safe distance?

RAW says the contents, no matter what they are, are destroyed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 07, 2022, 01:09:28 pm

That wouldn't destroy it, just send it to the astral plane, at least in 5e, which I assume is what folks are talking about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on January 08, 2022, 02:30:09 pm

So, I had been planning a two-player DnD game for this past week. Doing DnD two-players presents many interesting challenges due to the loss of versatility. Since I wanted to run our first session before the break ended, I've needed to really rush/crunch the prep.

Anyway, I found out yesterday that my players chose to make their characters a Warlock and a Druid. I'm really mad at this because our adventure starts at level 1 and as a result, a party of two squishy wizards can get one-shot by basically anything. Also my first planned encounter involves reskinned blink dogs.

I would have told them to make new characters, but due to the rushed nature of the setup, there isn't any time for that.

Wish me luck I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on January 08, 2022, 02:43:56 pm

Do you have time to give them a sidekick (assuming this is 5e)? I found the sidekick rules in Tasha's and Dragon of Icespire Peak were pretty helpful for shoring up the party in cases like this. You even can have it the side kick be a pet wolf or something. If you don't have either of those, you could also just give them a companion NPC they need to rescue but can then help them out for the rest of the adventure or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on January 08, 2022, 04:04:16 pm

I'll probably have their patron give them two Thugs (CR 1/2) to work with as tanky meatshields. They're only going to meet the patron after the first encounter though, so they're still gonna have to find a way to survive the blink dogs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 09, 2022, 07:15:03 pm

It sounds like you might want to reconsider balancing your encounters. Although neither druids or warlocks have to be squishy wizard types, Blink dogs, as in, multiple blink dogs would be at least a hard encounter for even for two characters that are particularly powerful at level 1 and if you have more then 2 that'd be beyond deadly. Throwing hard encounters at players at level 1 is a good way to kill the party, no matter what the composition is.

And overall, warlock+druid seems to me to be a pretty decent party composition, the warlock can deal damage and has some nice utility, the druid got lots of utility and healing and at level 2 moon druids are the tankiest class in the game. You might have to be slightly handholding until they get to level 2, but overall for just a two person game, seems like a good mix.

Also 2 thugs would massively overshadow them in any combat situation, a single thug is an appropriate encounter for a level 1 party of 4. This might be fine, but, something to think about.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 10, 2022, 08:49:56 am

So I have been overthinking yet again and one thing I have been thinking about is the consequence of a flat world which stretches on to infinity. Already this means that gravity doesn't exist as it does where we are, to avoid everything getting pulled towards the new centre of the world. Which means there is an objective down, and an objective up. No problem in a world where everything is managed by divine shenanigens. I ended up in this bowl of nightmares by trying to create a setting where every star is uniformly spaced in a grid across the sky, and there were endless expanses going each four corner - truly endless. Some of the questions I've posited:

• Multiple suns, moons and stars would be needed to patrol every quarter of the world? I rather like this idea. Also allows for quarters of the world with unusual stellar arrangements, or quarters where their local sun is missing or locked in place.
• What is ultimate up and ultimate down, or is it also endless? I like the idea of digging deep into the HFS on land whilst the ocean just keeps going past the abyss into ever deeper stretches of infinite water. Maybe if you keep going you end up on someone else's layer of perpetual horizontalness, e.g. your ocean is their sky.
• A local area's sun would have to roam in a circle to give people day/night cycle. There may even need to be a whole train of moons and suns in order to give a proper day/night cycle?
• What's happening with shadows, light levels and seasons? If the sun & moon parade is rotating around in a circle, then instead of having a temperate seasonal north & a tropical/arid equator, there'll probably be a seasonal tropical/arid perimeter and an eternally springtime temperate core. Will the absolute core be snowy all the time?
• If you were to take a rocket ship up, how far out could you see before the absolute flatness could not be discerned any further?
• What happens to wind cycles if the atmosphere is infinite?
• An astronomer makes a telescope and gazes at the stars. What do they see?

*EDIT
One possible alternative which I think would be a worthy system, would be instead of having a caravan of stellar objects, have a chain of suns and moons, but they turn off and on depending on the time it's supposed to be on the ground. So the suns are fixed objects in the sky but appear to be just one sun moving

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 10, 2022, 12:59:59 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on January 10, 2022, 08:49:56 am

*EDIT
One possible alternative which I think would be a worthy system, would be instead of having a caravan of stellar objects, have a chain of suns and moons, but they turn off and on depending on the time it's supposed to be on the ground. So the suns are fixed objects in the sky but appear to be just one sun moving

Oh, so more like those xmas lights that turn on and off in patters so they look like they're moving. I was imagining it was the same time everywhere, and the suns just dimmed in the evening, then the moons took over. I suppose part of knowing exactly what is there would be the question 'Why?'. Whoever created the system did so for a reason, so they must have set things up to serve that purpose. That also leaves the option that things that aren't actually useful for that purpose could be done just well enough that most people wouldn't question it. After all, they haven't experienced anything else, so how would they know it's different. Kind of like the planet in HHGTTG with no stars.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 10, 2022, 04:34:30 pm

Quote from: Iduno on January 10, 2022, 12:59:59 pm

Oh, so more like those xmas lights that turn on and off in patters so they look like they're moving. I was imagining it was the same time everywhere, and the suns just dimmed in the evening, then the moons took over. I suppose part of knowing exactly what is there would be the question 'Why?'. Whoever created the system did so for a reason, so they must have set things up to serve that purpose. That also leaves the option that things that aren't actually useful for that purpose could be done just well enough that most people wouldn't question it. After all, they haven't experienced anything else, so how would they know it's different. Kind of like the planet in HHGTTG with no stars.

Lmao having the suns just dimmer switch off from a fixed grid makes a lot of sense. Could even have some pretty gnarly imagery where solar eclipses are pretty common whenever the local moon fills like it's not getting enough attention. But I think having the idea of a "direction" like you say, introduces some interesting questions. Scholars would probably be arguing for milennia over why exactly the sun is ordained to rise eastwards and set westwards when it takes much more effort than a fixed position sun with a dimmer switch. Whole exploration fleets would probably disappear over the endless horizon trying to find the answer of what lies beyond that sunny shore

Spoiler: where have I heard of this before (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/WngAK8d.jpeg)

THE SUNS THE SUNS THE SUNS

I also like that with a migrating sun pattern, you can explain why there is a sunset. The pattern has just migrated to another quarter. Doesn't explain why there's a pattern too, which adds to the mystery

*EDIT
Oh hell yeah, you could have really funky patterns too. If they are all perfectly parallel, then you can tell a person's been incredibly well traveled if they've crossed their second or third equator. If they're not all parallel then what pattern are the suns traveling in? Is there a global point where they all convene? Or are they crisscrossing like a diamond grid?
I think for an infinite flat world a parallel series is an inevitable evil. But I do love the idea of travelers crossing that second equator knowing on some spiritual level that they are the furthest from home they could be

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 11, 2022, 12:52:54 pm

You also might be able to look up some of the old Planescape stuff to see if they have weird descriptions, because a lot of that took place on infinite planes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2022, 12:39:48 pm

Quote from: Iduno on January 11, 2022, 12:52:54 pm

You also might be able to look up some of the old Planescape stuff to see if they have weird descriptions, because a lot of that took place on infinite planes.

Most of that stuff is fairly barren by design; a framework for DMs to come up with their own realms, and what stuff they do provide is just... Empty

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 14, 2022, 07:07:41 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2022, 12:39:48 pm

Quote from: Iduno on January 11, 2022, 12:52:54 pm

You also might be able to look up some of the old Planescape stuff to see if they have weird descriptions, because a lot of that took place on infinite planes.

Most of that stuff is fairly barren by design; a framework for DMs to come up with their own realms, and what stuff they do provide is just... Empty

"So the para-elemental plane of smoke, right?  The air's smoke, the ground's smoke, the inhabitants are smoke, the fuck am I supposed to do with an entire realm of smoke?"

"You smoke it"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on January 15, 2022, 02:18:08 am

But can you get high off the smoke in the plane of smoke?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 15, 2022, 05:46:14 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on January 14, 2022, 07:07:41 pm

"So the para-elemental plane of smoke, right?  The air's smoke, the ground's smoke, the inhabitants are smoke, the fuck am I supposed to do with an entire realm of smoke?"

"You smoke it"

"YOU CANNOT KILL ME MAJOR LAZER!" - Weed Elemental (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEy5e-ksApM)
"Why kill weed... When I can smoke weed?" - Major Lazer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9vAmHx_v3U)

That was a good show btw. Can recommend

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 17, 2022, 07:57:38 pm

I just realized my character is the only good character in my party.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 17, 2022, 08:28:33 pm

Quote from: Horizon on January 17, 2022, 07:57:38 pm

I just realized my character is the only good character in my party.

That's chaotic.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on January 17, 2022, 11:27:33 pm

I can't help but think of the scenario where every member of that party thinks that :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 18, 2022, 04:32:03 am

So we had an... Interesting DnD session last night.

Was all good, chopping some kobolds, I'm swinging for 7d6 these days so that has some decent slap to it... And then the white dragon and its rider showed up again for round 2 after getting reasonably trounced by us earlier in the day.

I ran over to try and keep the squishies alive (one of which who was already down and being stomped on by the rider), and looked on in horror as the other party members ran in close to add their DPS against the rider. That's when the dragon swooped back into view again.


Total wipe. If it'd been a DEX save I probably could've leveraged my shiny new Evasion to stay conscious and save everyone, but white dragon breath is CON... I succeeded on the saving throw, but half of 44 cold damage is still more than 18 hp. While I lay unconscious on death's door in the snow, my companions around me drew what would be their final breaths.

Of the five characters who ventured into those mountains, two walked out. Forever scarred by the experience. F.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 18, 2022, 04:48:47 am

F in rip, kagus

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on January 18, 2022, 07:36:15 am

Next session one of you can play the scars. Magic dragon scars! They gained sentience and now they fight for booze and gigolos.

It's a colony being, so one person gets to be the scars on both the survivors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 18, 2022, 11:41:47 am

Quote from: Frumple on January 17, 2022, 11:27:33 pm

I can't help but think of the scenario where every member of that party thinks that :P

My good stranger, mi amigo the party consists of a CE Bugbear Barbarian, a CN Goblin Wizard  who thinks he's a Gnome, an actual Gnome Artificer who can't trust anyone for  R E A S O N S. Oh and the High Elf Rogue at least she is NG, and then me the Half-elf Bard who do the sword shit.

Oh almost forgot the Mechanus Sorcerer who solves L A W  with E Q U A T I O N S.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 18, 2022, 12:15:52 pm

Quote from: Frumple on January 17, 2022, 11:27:33 pm

I can't help but think of the scenario where every member of that party thinks that :P

I generally play evil characters, often inspired by historical figures like say Alexander the Great. So not good people at all, warlords, zealots, assassins, cannibals (usually animal people of some kind.) But ironically when I do make a Good character they're generally the most moral character in the group. Sparing lives (everybody gets at least one chance at redemption,) donating money, trying to talk people down, resolve people's interpersonal conflicts, admonishing speciests rather than just making fun of them behind their back, facing any peril to try and save others. The kind of guy who'd duel a Balor to save the life of a murderer because no one deserves that kind of fate.

Not necessarily the only Good guy granted, but my group has a tendency to pass up the chance to do the most morally correct* option in favour of things like revenge. Revenge against bad people certainly, but often disproportionate compared to what they've done unless they were also funny. Like, 'this racist asshole is a monster and we'll go out of our way to spite him and investigate him because he must be up to something, but that racist old lady had funny improvised banter with a PC so she's fine, horrible but fine.'


*Morality obviously being subjective, though D&Ds internal morality is basically an illogical version of Kantian morality, but generally speaking some of the broad strokes can be consistently agreed on.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 22, 2022, 09:48:05 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on January 18, 2022, 12:15:52 pm

*Morality obviously being subjective, though D&Ds internal morality is basically an illogical version of Kantian morality, but generally speaking some of the broad strokes can be consistently agreed on.

By sane people perhaps, but not usually by the devs. Last I checked, the only things that the devs have as consistently evil are having dark skin and/or having a matriarchal society. At least 5th, despite its issues, is taking the first steps to removing alignment by making it less important.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 22, 2022, 01:32:31 pm

Dang, that's direct but largely true.  Though spellcasters do have spells with "good" and "evil" qualifiers to contend with.  I think 3's Book of Vile Darkness (and the Book of Exalted Deeds) tried to add more mechanics for morality, but did an atrocious job.  I mean, BoED has a prestige class AND a feat based around being a virgin.  And unless I'm grossly misremembering, having that virginity... removed without consent... requires an Atonement spell like a fallen paladin.  yeah, not great.

5E is a lot better about morality in general, I agree.  4E was probably the worst, trying to consolidate alignments to remove nuance.  But 4E was an interesting experiment in a lot of ways.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2022, 01:42:36 pm

My approach has been that alignment reflects cosmic alignment with divine or otherwise forces, not everybody has it, it is not an element of personality or a roleplaying prompt, and good-evil are not options on it.

Speaking of, finished GMing my first session today. Went well. The rogue rolled two critfails trying to hack at the ratswarm covering the bard, the bard rolled one critfail targeting same swarm (this resulted in the bard going down), the second ratswarm rolled one critfail trying to nip at the cleric and wound up fighting amongst themselves, taking casualties to their own Giant Cave Spider venom covered teeth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 22, 2022, 01:49:26 pm

Congrats on your first session!  Nice DF reference with the venom :D
Crits and critfails are always fun opportunities for creativity!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 22, 2022, 04:03:07 pm

(It only occurred to me to call it a GCS when I went to post about it here, in game I called it what the monster manual calls it: a Giant Spider. But dnd Giant Spiders do seem to live primarily in caves so it's pretty much the same.)

There was actually a spider, which was probably more than the party could have taken on safely. So it was a good thing that it was just passively hanging out on the ceiling of a room without any exits large enough for it to use. Since it couldn't really hunt effectively, the local rats were feeding it in exchange for use of its silk and venom. Valuable boons in the rat world!

The idea came when flipping through the end of the monster manual thinking about things for a low level party to fight. Rats, giant rats, swarms of rats, swarms of spiders, giant spider... hmm. If they get a task to kill some rats, and run into swarms of them, they'll expect the boss to be a big rat. But what if I mix and match? After all, rats are social creatures, and so are dnd's conception of giant spiders, sometimes. They could find a symbiosis, and I get to pull a spooky twist when they find the creepy crawly in question.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 22, 2022, 04:08:00 pm

I remember playing an Undead Sorcerer in Pathfinder who Crit confirmed a Chill Hands spell on a big bad; a demon of sorts and rolling those 20's had the table amazed at how a dinky weak Sorcerer just rekt a demon with a lvl one spell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Hanslanda on January 24, 2022, 09:17:31 pm

I made a morally ambiguous LG Paladin for Curse of Strahd. It worked because he was stupid as hell but very wise. Wise enough to realize trusting his OBVIOUSLY evil teammates was better than making well intentioned but ultimately destructive choices on his own.

"I am Ilmater's judgement, here to punish the bringers of suffering. I know not why you have been chosen, but it is your turn to suffer for the good of all *SETS HIMSELF ON HOLY FIRE, DRAWS SUNBLADE, AND DROPS A LEVEL 4 SPELL SLOT SMITE*"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 25, 2022, 07:57:21 pm

As long as we're talking about stupid paladin ideas:
https://twitter.com/Talen_Lee/status/1481111561762930688 (https://twitter.com/Talen_Lee/status/1481111561762930688)

Context with additional great/terrible stories:
https://andrewducker.tumblr.com/post/656396056453595136/what-is-the-child-annihilating-zipline (https://andrewducker.tumblr.com/post/656396056453595136/what-is-the-child-annihilating-zipline)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 25, 2022, 08:28:04 pm

"A lot of construction experience, but no engineering experience."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 26, 2022, 06:46:11 am

With the last session's TPK, the DM has decided that the two characters to make their death saves are to be momentarily retired from active play as they probably need a while to think about things (I happen to strongly agree). So we're all rolling up new characters at level 5, to basically pick up at investigating the site on the mountain where everyone else died.

I asked the DM if there were any hooks or things he wanted to have in a character, and he mentioned that it would be nice if someone had a kind of cursed relic that followed them around. Some kind of token that resists normal curse-breaking magics and that always returns to the bearer after being thrown away/burned/etc., reappearing in their pocket to haunt them. This was to have a way of leading folks back to the "forge of unmaking" that the original party was going to be venturing towards, as the bearer had heard legends of such a place that could dismantle cursed and magical items at their very core.


I cooked up a concept that I thought would be kinda fun; a dwarven merchant, from a family of merchants, whose clan prided themselves on the honesty of their deals. However, a deal can only be honest if neither side is cheated, and that includes the merchant. So to uphold their status and reputation, they place great effort and investment in not getting scammed. Their very name relies on it.

Somewhere along the line, this character got gipped. He was given a fake gold coin in a deal. Insignificant in the greater scheme of the trade, but it was a slur on his honor and the honor of his entire family. And furthermore, it could not be removed and would remain as a permanent mark of shame against his name, despite all previous attempts to banish it. A deviously powerful curse, and one seemingly custom-tailored to target his clan. So he ventured out in a kind of self-imposed exile, until such a time as he could defeat the magic and start on the path of restoring his family's honor.

Mechanically, I was thinking a Devotion paladin. Lots of shiny golden glory to go along with the esteemed mercantile theme, while also allowing for high CHA to facilitate being a trader. Was considering picking up Skill Expert to both round out one of my stats (could have 16 in both STR and CHA if taking mountain dwarf) and give me expertise in Insight to help beef up my bullshit detection, as is my family's claim to fame. Curiously, Devotion's tenets can be worked to make a fair amount of sense with a trader type character of that sort. If they honestly believe that providing investment and employment are greater goods to society than simple charity, then you can find logic in there to facilitate garnering more wealth, since they'd be able to make more investments and provide more employment as such and thereby spread goodness. An ethical capitalist, if you will :P

Fighting ability would be a little bit on the "eh" side with only 16 STR, but in a way that kinda makes sense if he's first and foremost a merchant, and Devotion's channel divinity ability helps leverage the high CHA into more hitting as well (while additionally being all shiny and golden, which seemed thematically appropriate). And while we're not level 6 yet, the previous session did make it rather clear that we could probably do with some enhanced saving throws :P


...buuuut then I checked the roster, and it looks like someone else is playing a paladin. And I don't really wanna step on any toes.

Guess it's ranged bullshit battle master time!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 26, 2022, 12:08:03 pm

Low-key: Arcane Archer (3) multiclass Hexblade Warlock (3) is actually hella broken. Be the Human (Variant) to choose the Sharpshooter feat at lvl 1. Go for the Improved Pact Weapon (Invocation) for instant Strongbow as I like to call it. Literally you can just fuck shit up because the -5 is practically null if your Dex is high. Imagine a Bursting Arrow then with +10 Damage to the main target the +2d6 Force on top of the base weapon roll if it hits and the saves fail.

And besides that the Hexblades curse will increase Crit range, and bonus damage! Cha mod ftw!

THEN DESTROY FROM RANGE!

(Don't believe me? Check the math, I tested the math and cannot believe people haven't noticed the hidden OPness of both classes!)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on January 26, 2022, 12:30:39 pm

Quote from: Kagus on January 26, 2022, 06:46:11 am

...buuuut then I checked the roster, and it looks like someone else is playing a paladin. And I don't really wanna step on any toes.

Entire party must roll paladins.  Derail DM's plans with crusade.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on January 26, 2022, 12:45:45 pm

Merchant crusade sounds like something that would rapidly de-paladinify the entire party, ngl.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on January 26, 2022, 03:16:41 pm

Quote from: Horizon on January 26, 2022, 12:08:03 pm

Check the math

a +4 attack that deals 1d8+2d6+17. Averaging 28.5 damage, although you can only add the 2d6 twice per short rest. You can also do smites, which are very nice, up to 2 per short rest for 2d6 damage. Throw those in to increase the damage average to 35.5

If I recall, cr 6 enemies average 15 AC, so you hit on average 45% of the time, and you crit 10% of the time So your average dpr is 17.825 twice per short rest.

Some other thoughts, sharpshooter champion dpr is 17.55 all day long.
Sharpshooter hexblades with their better smites have 27.9 dpr twice per short rest.

Obviously these numbers all change a lot with the change of target AC, and importantly it's sorta an unfair comparison because the ultimate bonus to damage for an attacking character is reaching another attack number milestone which both straight hexblades and straight fighters get at level 5 but a mix would get at level 8, at level 8 I'd expect that the archer/hexblade catches up with the straight hexblade in a big way, although I'm not sure how much value I'd put on the 2d6 force damage in exchange for falling behind on spell progression. It would be better then the champion though.

I think the real take away is that sharpshooter is good, and hexblade is good, although neither of these are particularly hidden OPness :P since both are very frequent choices for optimization.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: JoshuaFH on January 26, 2022, 11:16:38 pm

Man I sure am ignorant to have not noticed a DND thread on these here forums.

I have a friend that is DM'ing for his second time ever, and weirdly enough we're having trouble finding players. I think the problem to be the time slot he's chosen: 6:30pm 9:00PM EST, on Mondays. We have 2 players thus far, myself included, but I guess everyone else in our friend group can't make it. Would anyone here be interested in a campaign over Roll20 in that time frame? It's 5e, and the campaign is Waterdeep: Dragon Heist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 26, 2022, 11:47:13 pm

Now that I've moved to a place where I have friends and don't need to drive 3 hours to see someone I know...first session this Saturday. Running a short three-shot for my friends where they'll play some guards who get wrapped up in intrigue and back stabbing. They're meant to be somewhat misfits, so I had fun making non-usual class characters.

Such as the half-orc wizard with better melee attacks that the gnome fighter. Or my favorite of the group: a dwarf ranger who carries an axe, is covered in armor, and has plants as his favored enemy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 27, 2022, 05:03:34 am

Flat elf Samurai 6 can lay down 4 sharpshooter attacks with superadvantage in a round. Hell, echo knight 6 can pull off 6-7 GWM attacks in a round along with the rest of the echo bullshit.

Or we can take the level 5 range bullshit I'm leaning towards rolling up in this campaign. Vhuman with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert feats, Battle Master 5.

This of course means our dex is still only 16, but Archery fighting style helps out there. Got a priority target that needs to die? Pop 'em without taking the sharpshooter penalty to better ensure a hit, then throw trip attack on top of that for guaranteed +1d8 damage and potentially knocking them over. If they fail the save, walk over and action surge to double-tap them with your remaining 4 attacks (bonus action XBE shot) with advantage and sharpshooter owies. If you manage to miss with advantage, you can probably patch up the remainder with precision attack if they absolutely have to go down right now.

Nasties giving your teammates trouble? Slap 'em with goading attack from range and then just back up. You've got four dice per short rest, use 'em.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on January 27, 2022, 02:08:59 pm

... flat elf samurai? do they mumble something about justice as they murder things?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 27, 2022, 02:26:53 pm

Quote from: JoshuaFH on January 26, 2022, 11:16:38 pm

Man I sure am ignorant to have not noticed a DND thread on these here forums.

Yeah, it seems like it would be in the Other Games subforum.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 27, 2022, 05:17:42 pm

Quote from: Frumple on January 27, 2022, 02:08:59 pm

... flat elf samurai? do they mumble something about justice as they murder things?

Goteem

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 28, 2022, 09:37:58 am

Quote from: Frumple on January 27, 2022, 02:08:59 pm

... flat elf samurai? do they mumble something about justice as they murder things?

"I'm looking for the justice. I'm told you'd know where to find them.'
The barman polished his glasses in thought.
"Oh yeah, I know who that is. Flat is justice."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on January 28, 2022, 10:25:56 am

So my mind's been back on the idea for a dark fantasy setting I shared here a while ago, and specifically I have a short adventure idea in mind.

Players would be mercenaries, interested citizens or similar, going out to a collection of villages and hamlets that have been been getting raided by bandits and accosted by highwaymen. Not much killing, but a lot of looting and arson. People have been going missing though, and the bandits are being blamed so the villages have pooled some money together to hire someone to deal with it because the local authorities are being weirdly slow about it.

The bandits are in fact mercenaries themselves, hired and protected by a Witchhunter to ransack the locals in search of evidence of a fleshcrafter coven in the area. The coven is thought to have fled a relatively nearby town when other Witchhunters failed to corner them all before being noticed, and has now set up shop within the area and started abducting and experimenting on the local people, wildlife and livestock. If the Witchhunter makes their presence known too soon the coven will just flee again, and if they manage to flee it gives them more opportunities to spread their forbidden instructional texts and methods, so they're using the bandits as a cover to sieze and investigate people's property, and abduct the odd person to interrogate.

The coven is in fact local, at least in part, a member did flee the town with research materials and victims and hid among the seasonal farmhands, but the chief agents of the coven are residents of the villages. A doctor, a farmer, a priest, and a miller, who together have the knowledge, money and access to bodies and vulnerable people to perform experiments on the melding of different creatures for various reasons. The doctor wants to learn for the sake of it, the farmer wants to make a docile species of labourer, the priest thinks fleshcrafting will help him know the mind of his god, and the miller is wealthy and bored and turned to the coven as a way to pass the time that just got out of hand. The cultist from the town is frightened of being burned at the stake and regrets ever having gotten involved with the fleshcrafters, but had originally joined in the hopes that the coven he was in could help him and his wife deal with infertility problems (they did, it didn't go well.)


The logical endpoints I see are the players siding with the witchhunter to stop the fleshcrafters as more subtle agents than the existing mercenaries, or not believing there is a coven and fighting the witchhunter and mercenaries and then leaving. Or possibly siding with the fleshcrafters, that's always an option but I doubt many would take it given the experiments I have in mind.


Primary enemies would be a mixture of about a dozen well armed bandits, each with a name and personality, the odd guard dog or feral animal, and some experiments that are fusions of multiple animals or animals and people.

One monster I have in mind is the remains of Timothy Derrich, formerly aged eleven, kidnapped and fused with the living body of a wolfhound through a combination of surgery and alchemy to graft the head and part of the upper torso of the dog to his own upper body in place of his head, neck and collarbone. A twisted and suffering creature with a distended neck, supurrating flesh held together by magic and stitches, Derrich is used to track and help abduct subjects for the coven's experiments. He has massively reduced mental capabilities and is unable to speak as a result of having his constituent skulls cracked open and fused together, with some cranial matter from both heads being discarded to save space.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 28, 2022, 10:34:49 am

Inb4 the mercenaries try subcontract their work to the players

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on January 28, 2022, 07:14:47 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on January 28, 2022, 10:34:49 am

Inb4 the mercenaries try subcontract their work to the players

Players discover the cultists, but go along with what they do, because they weren't hired to hunt them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 29, 2022, 05:22:40 am

Okay, quick opinion question... The cantrip Shape Water:

Quote

You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:

• You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.
• You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.
• You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.
• You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.

If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.

If you use point no.2 to form water into a particular shape, then use point no.4 to freeze it solid, would you then allow someone to dismiss the effect of no.2 while still letting the frozen sculpture retain its shape?

I mean, it kinda makes sense to me... When forming things into a shape without freezing them, the shape is being maintained by constant magical force being applied to it. Once it's frozen, it now has physical forces maintaining the shape, so you can "let go" of the magical forces and it'd stay solid. I suppose the alternative would be to have a frozen solid sculpture suddenly morph back into a watery shape, while staying solid throughout.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on January 29, 2022, 08:18:12 am

I mean, zeroth rule: Is your group going to have more fun if the answer is yes? If so, the answer is yes :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2022, 08:14:36 am

Thousand year old vampire looks pretty cool, getting ready to try a game.  Solo artsy RPG, kind of frou-frou but a really interesting premise, you're a vampire and you're immortal but your brain's still a human brain and wasn't designed for immortality.  Over centuries your memories fade, get stored in journals, get lost when you're forced to abandon your lair, vaguely persist in mementos and tokens you still carry long after you forgot what they used to mean to you, get ground to dust by eternity until there's nothing left of you but a shambling pile of disconnected thoughts.  Interesting concept, and a way of doing vampires I haven't seen before.  Everywhere at the end of time but you're a vampire.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 30, 2022, 10:14:32 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on January 30, 2022, 08:14:36 am

Thousand year old vampire looks pretty cool, getting ready to try a game.  Solo artsy RPG, kind of frou-frou but a really interesting premise, you're a vampire and you're immortal but your brain's still a human brain and wasn't designed for immortality.  Over centuries your memories fade, get stored in journals, get lost when you're forced to abandon your lair, vaguely persist in mementos and tokens you still carry long after you forgot what they used to mean to you, get ground to dust by eternity until there's nothing left of you but a shambling pile of disconnected thoughts.  Interesting concept, and a way of doing vampires I haven't seen before.  Everywhere at the end of time but you're a vampire.

[ oppressive BOM BOM BOM BOM BOM BOM starts playing ]
[ your kiss was was such a sacred thing to me ]
[ I can't believe it's just a burning memory ]
Vlad Dracula just dancing alone in his castle but it's 2512

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 30, 2022, 10:55:10 am

[synthoelectric boink boink boink starts playing] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BG5GjxpFCE)

I'll linger here
Your ring upon my finger, dear
And sing till dawn a song of you and me and what and why
For time is all
I have to keep between these walls

And half asleep
The days go by
A million little nights and days go by
And I don't mind

Parades go by
So many beautiful parades go by
Leave me behind

I'll sit and stare
How could I venture anywhere
And let the centuries fall where they may but never die
For I have loved
And so I lost the world above

Beyond the moss
The days go by
A million little nights and
Days go by
And I don't mind

Parades go by
So many beautiful parades go by
Leave me behind

Or maybe he fell in with a Crowd of Drifters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMH7ZHzetVw)

Sometimes the road is too long
You meet all kinds of people
Some of them cast no shadow
They have no reflections
Take a look in your photobook
I'm not there anymore

I was a travelling salesman
I got lost on the backroads
Fell in with a crowd of drifters.

Sometimes the sun is too bright
And it burns you like acid
You get to love driving at night
The moon is so close you can kiss it
I used to remember you smiling and waving
I don't think I can any more

I was a travelling salesman
I got lost on the backroads
Fell in with a crowd of drifters.

We come, unnoticed, at sundown
At the start of a blackout
We set bonfires all over town
And it's over by morning
Sometimes we bring the rat and the wolf
And sometimes the worm

I was a traveling salesman
I got lost on the backroads
Fell in with a crowd of drifters

or maybe he was Born On a Train (http://The Magnetic Fields - Born on a Train)

or maybe Stephin Merritt just really like vampire romanticisms

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on January 30, 2022, 11:07:34 am

Or just go with this one, which is literally about vampires, she even puts on a vampire fang-mouth voice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQR6D8NbKI)

I went with a Janissary, a Bulgarian Christian taken as blood tax and raised in Edirne in the early 1400s.  Got captured by a bulgarian vampire and turned; before he could kill me my best janissary bro rescued me but I was crazed with the new turning and killed him.  Went back to Edirne, told my secret girlfriend everything, she was terrified of me and in the panic I hurt her, so she turned.  Started feeding on animals, my battallion's commander caught me and I killed him too.  At this point it was all too much for me and I just ran to live in a cave and eat animals and whatever travelers passed by.  A Bohemian nobleman vampire found me and captured me as a slave, taught me how to properly handle the cattle.  After a hundred years we went on campaign against the Ottomans and I escaped somewhere in Hungary.  I chafed at servitude but we're mostly in agreement on methods and philosophy re: humans

A rural priest took me in, tried to rehabilitate me, I made him bring me travelers or I'd feed on his flock instead.  Took up residence in a little ranch with pigs, borrowed Jan's methods.  I take the people nobody will miss, feed on them slowly, use instruments instead of fangs so they don't turn, chop them up when they die and feed them to the pigs.  That's where I am now.  I'm roughly 130 years old and almost all of that was spent serving a full-on Bathory style vampire so I'm pretty fucked up, we'll see if I ever change my feelings on humans.

---

My secret girlfriend showed back up and exposed me as a murderer, I was forced to kill the priest and some of the other villagers and ended up fleeing to Munich.  I found another vampire and blackmailed her to steal an incantation for binding newly-created vampires.  I insinuated myself into a minor noble house, stole its fortune, and eventually wiped it out and moved on, wandering through the city and surrounding environs, accidentally created a vampire and bound her to silence but couldn't bring myself to kill her and didn't want another vampire around.  It's around 1650 now and memories are fading.  I don't remember anything of my life before that village, I still have my saber and janissary hat but I don't remember being one, as far as I know they could be trophies or gifts or something.  I know the vampire that exposed me was from my earlier past but I don't remember who she was or why she wanted revenge against me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2022, 02:55:46 am

That reminds me of this one vampire movie called Byzantium where two vampires are running around contemporary times, being hunted down by some nefarious gangsters. At first it presents the first vampire as being ancient for being born in the 19th century, with all the film taking place around the Byzantium Hotel. The film was all right, bit lacking in some areas, but the ending where one of the gangsters pulls out a curved sword and mentions off-hand it was a sourvneir from Byzantium was one of the coolest vampire moments I've seen on the pictures

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 31, 2022, 04:07:28 am

Praise be Maglubyiet

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on January 31, 2022, 01:17:52 pm

Ive stopped on my vampire, now that ive got a feel for the game i may do another round with a more elaborate writeup.

Janissary guy is in the 1700s now, still in Munich. He kidnapped a scholar to teach him history since he'd just slept for a century, and his memories are beginning to fade and entangle badly now.  He thinks he was a hungarian crusader in the ottoman wars, thinking the sword and hat are trophies from campaign, and some other memories are half-erased.

It's a kind of slow spectrum of inner deaths, continually moving and reinventing yourself as times change and youre forced to shed your skin and change your name under scrutiny, the vampire is less an immortal and more a succession of mortals blurring together at the edges.  Your body is haunted by the fragmentary remains of past selves and one day your life will be somebody else's vague memories

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on January 31, 2022, 07:49:05 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on January 31, 2022, 02:55:46 am

That reminds me of this one vampire movie called Byzantium where two vampires are running around contemporary times, being hunted down by some nefarious gangsters. At first it presents the first vampire as being ancient for being born in the 19th century, with all the film taking place around the Byzantium Hotel. The film was all right, bit lacking in some areas, but the ending where one of the gangsters pulls out a curved sword and mentions off-hand it was a sourvneir from Byzantium was one of the coolest vampire moments I've seen on the pictures

My first time playing Vampire was as a newly-embraced otherwise-human young adult with his own human life he was desperately trying to hold on to.  Sure he was "dead" or whatever, but he kept up with his anarchist-hacker friends (at night) and managed to feed them intel and even got our coterie to do a nonlethal site-op to free some information.

That character's sire, a Mekhet of course, encouraged such humanizing activities.  Disregarding the details.  The sire was oddly insistent that my character hold on to something, anything, important.  Unusually good advice, bought with (IIRC) two Mentor points on chargen.
The Storyteller didn't kill him, the dice did.  A werewolf caught up to our *INSANE* little group and ripped his head off through the back window of our car, pushing the gas between cities.  Exploding dice are a heck, but both player and ST eventually accepted that there was no BS'ing this away.  Good childe had a good run.

---

Eleanor didn't remember being a WW2 medic.  She knew she had been, of course.  Sometimes her Ventrue sire mentioned it when in a weird mood.  Sometimes 3-4 times a year he would do so, and she would nod, and he would scowl and go back to his garden, and she would return to the housework.

And the cats.
Cats are permissible, they eat pests.  Eleanor also eats pests.  Eleanor is like the cats.

Eleanor has to leave the grounds.  Eleanor doesn't like that.  A lot of things happen very quickly, but that's okay.  Pests she wasn't allowed to kill did very annoying things, and she had to help them, and then they died by being stupid.  A very strange few weeks. Quickly forgotten.
Eleanor has a lot more cats now.

Eleanor also has a "rank" for doing well.  Eleanor isn't sure how to feel about that.  Maybe in a decade or two it will make sense.

[My second vampire character started with no additional stats or bonuses but had been a neonate for a stupidly long time, because the Ventrue are like that.  also her sire was hilariously bad at using phones, much less modern tech - so was she.] [oh also she saved her sire from dying on the battlefield, from wounds even a vampire can't survive.  This was the reward]

---

Edit:  Something that stuck with me from the first character is being captured by some Hunters and being interrogated... well, sorta.  They wanted info, but they were also... shoving our misdeeds in our faces.  Trying to convince us that...
That we were no longer the humans we had been, that we were monsters...

My silly hacker neonate deeply believed in nonlethal methods and had strong human connections (and mechanically, humanity) and said as much.  The sort of argument you don't want to win, in retrospect.  This poor Hunter acolyte was being forced to hurt one of the very few good vampires in town, and having his faith shaken by doing so.  Bad luck for both kids.

Final note:  Eleanor survived almost entirely on rats because that's what she had done for decades.  The good hacker kid fed on people.  He never killed them, but he took a LOT out of several people.  Was it worth whatever good he did?  He's too dead to say, but the werewolf who killed him wasn't wrong.

---

Eleanor did taste human blood, and it tasted absurdly good. too good.  It had to be a trick.  She dried her dead lips and made a note to report this to her sire, and not to taste such things any more.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 01, 2022, 09:26:29 am

So, first session with new characters after the wipe, and... Hoo boy

DM hadn't done much prep on account of being completely wrecked during the weekend, which was honestly great for me because my own prep was awful and I slapped together a character the day before session. However, someone else had clearly been thinking about their character design for a while... Much to our detriment.

Yes, I am of course referring to the delightfully loud fellow who once decided that he'd made the clever tactical decision that I did in my first session with them. The one who thinks he's involved in every scene, and is the star of every show.


His new character is an artificer, battle smith to be exact... Which is already a lot of bookkeeping for someone who can't remember what his proficiency bonus is or what it really even does. But technical know-how and spending less than 5 minutes completing your turn aside, the personality he's gone with is... Something special.

He's a warforged artificer, with a personality that is very clearly modeled off of C3PO. Confused, incessantly chattery, and loudly (repeatedly) proclaiming that we're doomed and he wants nothing to do with any of what's going on. While blaming his mecha-dog, who is apparently taking the part of R2D2.

On top of that there's a bit of a Who's On First thing going on, seeing as his character's name is RU-01, or "Arryu". "Are you a threat?" "Are you a threat? Wait, I'm Arryu! Are you? I have friends!"


It's... Wew. It's something alright.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 02, 2022, 07:38:24 am

At least one person at the table is having fun, Kagus.

I DMed what is meant to be a three shot, but is potentially going to be a longer campaign. Here's some highlights.

A count and his spymaster recruited three guards (our players) to perform an assassination on a local baron. They were given effectively free reign to do it as they saw fit, and some gold up front to cover the costs.

The three immediately cased the baron's holding, snuck into his vault, and pilfered all of his earthly treasures. They then played on that vulnerability to join the baron's guards (only one was wise enough to use a pseudonym), and waited until they had duty in front of the baron's chambers.

A planted agent by that spymaster took out the other guard while the party rushed in and 'Julius style' stabbed the baron to bits. They returned looking for their rewards, but were instead pinned with the crimes! A classic twist to tie up loose ends!

Next session starts with the count's son arranging for a show execution and hiring the party to kill the count who had betrayed them. We'll see if they learned their lesson or not.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 04, 2022, 09:34:20 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on January 31, 2022, 07:49:05 pm

-snip-

Thanks for sparing the time to write that up, the characters really shone through your prose

Quote from: delphonso on February 02, 2022, 07:38:24 am

We'll see if they learned their lesson or not.

Narrator: they did not learn their lesson

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 04, 2022, 10:34:04 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on February 04, 2022, 09:34:20 am

Quote from: delphonso on February 02, 2022, 07:38:24 am

We'll see if they learned their lesson or not.

Narrator: they did not learn their lesson

Session in about 4 hours. I'm very excited to see if they did or did not. It feels good to get back into gaming - it's been a long time since I played something more than a one-shot (or a two-shot with my wife, which didn't last long because apparently newborns require a lot of attention)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Scoops Novel on February 05, 2022, 11:18:07 am

What's a better name then Dungeons and Dragons?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 05, 2022, 11:19:34 am

almost nothing, if you're going for brand recognition

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on February 05, 2022, 11:55:01 am

Quote from: Novel on February 05, 2022, 11:18:07 am

What's a better name then Dungeons and Dragons?

Pathfinder ^jkjkjk but really there are very good names in older TSR products my favorite being Dragon Quest (not the video game it has no relation)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 05, 2022, 12:10:42 pm

My favorite is Drakar och Demoner, the Swedish classic rpg of totally no relation to the American game

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on February 05, 2022, 12:14:42 pm

Never played Stars Without Number, but I've always found it really evocative for an RPG name. (Obviously not the same genre of RPG as D&D)

Worst name for an RPG I've seen is probably Quest (just Quest, not Dragon Quest or HeroQuest or whatever), because the SEO on that is kinda terrible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 05, 2022, 12:42:03 pm

If I'm going to be real then yeah I think Stars Without Number is a really good name too. Possibly Riddle of Steel as well.

If the qualification is just "better name than Dungeons and Dragons" then really a lot of names will do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 05, 2022, 02:55:27 pm

There's one at the local B&N called Zweihander, no clue if it's any good but sounds badass.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on February 05, 2022, 05:15:39 pm

I've heard pretty good things about Zweihander if you like grim fantasy RPGs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 06, 2022, 03:40:21 pm

Unknown Armies
Esoterrorists
Scarlet Heroes
Motobushido
Blades in the Dark
Runequest

These are cool evocative names.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2022, 04:45:23 pm

All flesh must be eaten?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on February 07, 2022, 02:49:21 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2022, 04:45:23 pm

All flesh must be eaten?

That's what the lizardfolk keep telling me yes.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 07, 2022, 05:38:24 pm

Quote from: Horizon on February 07, 2022, 02:49:21 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2022, 04:45:23 pm

All flesh must be eaten?

That's what the lizardfolk keep telling me yes.

How can you expect any pudding, if you don't eat your meat?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on February 07, 2022, 06:18:49 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 07, 2022, 05:38:24 pm

Quote from: Horizon on February 07, 2022, 02:49:21 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2022, 04:45:23 pm

All flesh must be eaten?

That's what the lizardfolk keep telling me yes.

How can you expect any pudding, if you don't eat your meat?

Hey! Creature! Eating a human bone!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on February 07, 2022, 06:35:14 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2022, 04:45:23 pm

All flesh must be eaten?

Played a game of that back in uni, a pretty good game all in all.

Special mention to the wuxia expansion, with all sorts of crazy 'martial arts' moves like zombies making their ribs stick out horizontally and spin like a buzzsaw.

Quote from: Horizon on February 07, 2022, 02:49:21 am

That's what the lizardfolk keep telling me yes.

I did a spin on that where my lizardfolk thought that by eating people he was ensuring they would be reincarnated as lizardfolk among his family line, so it was sparing them the risk of coming back pink and squishy again, or as a worm or crow or something. He also did enjoy the taste of some people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Scoops Novel on February 07, 2022, 07:03:50 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on February 07, 2022, 06:35:14 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 06, 2022, 04:45:23 pm

All flesh must be eaten?

Special mention to the wuxia expansion, with all sorts of crazy 'martial arts' moves like zombies making their ribs stick out horizontally and spin like a buzzsaw.

A kung-fu zombie movie done well would be gold. The key is that the zombies are still shit... but they know kung-fu.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on February 08, 2022, 03:48:00 am

So a dojo filled with kung-fu zombies, it feels like they should be better than regular zombies when it comes to combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on February 08, 2022, 08:16:48 am

Wuxia/xianxia undead in general get pretty wild, tbh. They're generally in even higher magic settings than your average D&D campaign, in a situation where literally everyone of note functionally has gish levels (where they learn spells like wizards, but cast more like sorcerers and can pretty universally beat the everloving shit out of someone) and weird esoteric stuff is basically bog standard for even lower level critters. Start reanimating those things and there's little telling what's going to happen, heh.

How would your average D&D party even deal with a zombie that just picked up a river and is trying to hit them with it? Not even drown or whatever, they're using the river as a stick.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 08, 2022, 08:30:17 am

Better start running to find a river of their own to hit it back.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 13, 2022, 10:50:15 pm

I'm late, but it's the new year.

GMs (and, to a lesser extent players): share your weird ideas for games you've spent more time than reasonable thinking about.

I've mentioned the Shadowrun downtime-based game where characters solve basic living issues between missions.

I may have talked about the (probably 3.x-based) mid-high level D&D game where everyone is from a different setting (including base class/first prestige, and races), and needs to join up with others for revenge and exploring those worlds through violence (look, it's D&D, you don't have that many options). Faerun character who wants revenge on Elminster and the Harpers? Athas-based character who wants to topple the Dragon Princes? Krynn-ish character who realized everyone running a country is a jerk? Etc. The players travel between worlds to get revenge/set things right/take over. Each player would probably have to provide the information to the GM/other players on how the world works to save the GM time learning multiple worlds, but how else do you come up with a backstory?

Also, and Earthdawn campaign featuring players and characters who haven't experienced the world before. Starting inside a kaer (400-year fallout shelter/city), then moving out to see what has changed since people last walked the planet freely (~demons known as horrors took over when the magic level increased enough, then were supposed to be pushed out when the magic level fell back to nothing. It stopped falling, so monsters still exist).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 14, 2022, 06:15:38 pm

DnD Fogcourts:
These were popular two years ago or so with Dimension20's Fantasy High and Adventure Zone's ...school thing? Strixhaven just came out as well and all of these made me think about using a school as a meta-narrative of actually teaching the game to players. The idea would be to take 4 or so completely new players (I ran several games for total newbies in this city pre-covid) and to have them learn the game in a school setting. For instance: the scene opens at the end of a lecture explaining how the Help action works and advantage/disadvantage, then the players encounter an enemy who is invisible, thus giving them constant disadvantage, and suggesting they use the help action to defeat it.

Fish out of water:
I've wanted to run this campaign for years, and it is something I often mull over and update/completely change. Our players slip from our world into a DnD world. Fully equipped with the knowledge they have here, they are quickly imbued with magical energy and gain a class. I even had a Hamlet-esque "No man from woman born" kind of thing in the background to tie them into the events of the world.

And many more that I've scrapped. Nothing particularly wild, but ideas I keep coming back to.

In my campaign: my players managed to lie their way out of a betrayal by the man who hired them (pinning a previous assassination on someone else and pushing the innocent, but vengeful line on their employer) They also then kept talking about revolution. When presented with a prime situation for revolution (guards kicking down doors and a propagandist willing to help), they murdered the propagandist, rolled all above 17s on EVERY stealth check for the next half hour and murdered their way through the castle. 3-shots are fun, but they certainly trend toward murder hobo. We discussed a longer campaign, and have decided upon Waterworld.

Pirate ships and sunken dungeons - this will be my first attempt at an aquatic campaign and it will come with 0 landmass. The only solid footing will be the ocean's floor (and the dungeons that litter it) Still figuring out details and waiting on the party creation session this weekend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 14, 2022, 07:25:42 pm

Quote from: Iduno on February 13, 2022, 10:50:15 pm

GMs (and, to a lesser extent players): share your weird ideas for games you've spent more time than reasonable thinking about.

many many years ago when 4th ed DND was the bee's knees, the DM and I were early to the game and he had bought some sort of DM supplement for Pathfinder.  One of those ones full of ideas and random generation charts.  We were flipping through it and chuckling at certain stuff in it.

One part had to do with ghost ships (I think), and one of the ideas was an abandoned ship covered in crows.  We joked that literally every surface of the ship, even vertical ones, had birds on them.  Total bird saturation.  IIRC when he actually ran the ship in game, all of the birds were ghosts, being literally anywhere a bird could sit.  They'd dissipate and reform as you walked through them.  I don't recall what was actually on the ship though.

Another thing was a table for random tavern/inn names.  We rolled "The Fat Dryad," which we thought was the funniest shit.  In-game it was a tavern built around the base of a large tree.  The tree trunk was in the center of the building, and the trunk was artfully carved into a jolly fat lady.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Robsoie on February 14, 2022, 08:19:30 pm

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on February 14, 2022, 07:25:42 pm

random generation charts.

Made me remember this rather amazing thing :
http://autorolltables.github.io/

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 16, 2022, 09:47:03 am

Quote from: delphonso on February 14, 2022, 06:15:38 pm

Pirate ships and sunken dungeons - this will be my first attempt at an aquatic campaign and it will come with 0 landmass. The only solid footing will be the ocean's floor (and the dungeons that litter it) Still figuring out details and waiting on the party creation session this weekend.

This one sounds like fun. Depending on the edition, there are a lot of environmental rules (plus spells and abilities) that don't ever get much use, but could make a big difference in how the game is played. Plus, swimming makes the whole gameboard 3-dimensional.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on February 17, 2022, 05:50:42 am

It's 5e, which has a few class benefits that are 'can breathe underwater' which are never used otherwise. Yeah, the 3D nature of it is what I'm looking forward to - I offered this among a few options which were all basically 'let delphonso practice designing and describing dungeons' and underwater won by a landslide.

Character creation this weekend.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on February 17, 2022, 11:27:44 am

Gib me proper necromancer archetype WotC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 17, 2022, 05:46:00 pm

For some time I've wanted to run a small-race fathomlock who sleeps in a barrel of water, which I figured was a great way of actually bringing that little byline into play :P

A fully oceanic campaign sounds like it could have some very interesting peculiarities to it!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 17, 2022, 06:33:47 pm

Quote from: Kagus on February 17, 2022, 05:46:00 pm

A fully oceanic campaign sounds like it could have some very interesting peculiarities to it!

Everyone is dirty all of the time for no raisin.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5AvwHZF0RAc/maxresdefault.jpg)

I also forgot the stupid game idea (that I have much less interest in running, so feel free to use the idea) where the players are hired to protect the chosen one during part of a quest to save the world, which only the chosen one can do. The chosen one dies during the first encounter, so the players have the responsibility to doing all of the work, dragging the chosen one around, using spells to make the chosen one speak the incantations, hiring someone to cast anti-decay spells on the corpse, etc.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on February 17, 2022, 08:38:00 pm

Weekend at Bernies, the tabletop campaign, in other words. Rather than a stupid idea, it's one that netted something like twenty million in profit at the box office between it and a sequel :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on February 17, 2022, 11:46:20 pm

I'm starting a godbound campaign.  It's a very sandbox type of game, partly because that's what the creator likes to do, and also because the characters are demigods and it's kind of impossible to constrain them without flagrant railroading.  Gotta be more creative and make the challenges interesting and complex without just noping their hilariously direct and overpowered solutions, the classic "i want to do a plague story but we have guys who can just cure diseases instantly" except it's for everything.  Orc army led by a dragon-riding epic warlord isn't a campaign, it's like half a session before they nuke his army and the might/sword/alacrity godbound grabs his dragon by the tail and beats him to death with it.

I have a couple vague ideas for a starting point, considering starting them off with a directed mission but then again maybe building a small-scale sandbox area would be better for getting them into the spirit of the game.  The trouble is giving them some grit for their wheels to grip onto but also not getting them into a linear situation they'll have trouble breaking out of.

The current mission idea is a merchant prince in the lawless archipelago region lost a convoy to pirates and has to make an example of them or other groups will get ideas, so he asks them to stow away on a bait ship and deal with them in flashy demigod fashion.  In the process they learn the pirates worship a giant sea monster (envisioning like a giant lobster with humanoid claws instead of pincers and an octopus head), giving them something longer term to deal with if they want.


Actually, I know what I'll do now.  Start in Raktia, which is like Transylvania/the witcher, with scholomance style dark academies and monsters everywhere.  A sage recruited his nephew to help him break into an old tomb for magical treasures, and the kid took a cursed helmet.  It's a modification of the artifact armor in the book, while he wears it he can redirect any damage he takes to willing targets within 100 feet.  The curse is that he becomes increasingly arrogant and reckless and at the same time it demoralizes the people around him into accepting his crazy bullshit and letting him give them his damage, feeling like it's hopeless to resist him.  The helmet can't be removed while he lives, if they want to save him they'll have to find a way to break its enchantment.  Potentially a decent-sized quest if they want to save him, potentially very short if they just drag him somewhere far away and chop his head off.  The sage will reward them if they save his life.  Other than that I'll add some various other small interesting things in the area.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on February 18, 2022, 03:40:37 pm

Quote from: Cthulhu on February 17, 2022, 11:46:20 pm

I'm starting a godbound campaign.  It's a very sandbox type of game, partly because that's what the creator likes to do, and also because the characters are demigods and it's kind of impossible to constrain them without flagrant railroading.  Gotta be more creative and make the challenges interesting and complex without just noping their hilariously direct and overpowered solutions, the classic "i want to do a plague story but we have guys who can just cure diseases instantly" except it's for everything.  Orc army led by a dragon-riding epic warlord isn't a campaign, it's like half a session before they nuke his army and the might/sword/alacrity godbound grabs his dragon by the tail and beats him to death with it.

I have a couple vague ideas for a starting point, considering starting them off with a directed mission but then again maybe building a small-scale sandbox area would be better for getting them into the spirit of the game.  The trouble is giving them some grit for their wheels to grip onto but also not getting them into a linear situation they'll have trouble breaking out of.

The current mission idea is a merchant prince in the lawless archipelago region lost a convoy to pirates and has to make an example of them or other groups will get ideas, so he asks them to stow away on a bait ship and deal with them in flashy demigod fashion.  In the process they learn the pirates worship a giant sea monster (envisioning like a giant lobster with humanoid claws instead of pincers and an octopus head), giving them something longer term to deal with if they want.


Actually, I know what I'll do now.  Start in Raktia, which is like Transylvania/the witcher, with scholomance style dark academies and monsters everywhere.  A sage recruited his nephew to help him break into an old tomb for magical treasures, and the kid took a cursed helmet.  It's a modification of the artifact armor in the book, while he wears it he can redirect any damage he takes to willing targets within 100 feet.  The curse is that he becomes increasingly arrogant and reckless and at the same time it demoralizes the people around him into accepting his crazy bullshit and letting him give them his damage, feeling like it's hopeless to resist him.  The helmet can't be removed while he lives, if they want to save him they'll have to find a way to break its enchantment.  Potentially a decent-sized quest if they want to save him, potentially very short if they just drag him somewhere far away and chop his head off.  The sage will reward them if they save his life.  Other than that I'll add some various other small interesting things in the area.

Sounds a bit like mid-late game for the D&D game I'd like to either run or play in that I mentioned the other day.

Let them come up with their own challenges, put in full-blown gods and other demigods as reasonable (?) opposition, or require discretion for some reason (keep people from getting hurt, avoid full gods hunting and destroying them until they're strong enough, or avoid having everyone see they're powerful and want the players to solve all of their problems). Having the characters know they have a weakness (like the list of weaknesses vampires have, or just they're only human+ and can get stabbed enough to die) means they'll still have to be clever about their problem-solving, but also they have the tools to actually do so.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on February 28, 2022, 10:09:44 pm

I find my mind wandering back to Bloodborne, and thinking about how bits of it would work as RPG plots.

In particular the idea of adapting the atrocities of the Old Hunters.

Basic primer for those not familiar with Bloodborne and the Lovecraftian stuff in it; The scholars of the College of Byrgenwerth sought to ascend to a higher state of being through enlightenment, study and self discovery. To this end they trained a group of warrior scholars called hunters to delve into the places in their world that had been touched by eldritch powers, in order to to find knowledge that could further their goal of enlightenment. At some point a group of these hunters were sent to a fishing hamlet that was suspected to be influenced by an eldritch god called a Great One. As part of their investigation they vivsected, butchered and experimented the people of the village, to search for physical changes caused by the presence of the Great One, and ultimately found and murdered the Great One who was pregnant at the time. These acts lead to the hunters and their successors being cursed, and trapped in a nightmarish recreation of these events maintained by the unborn child of the Great One when they died.

So, taking the elements that could work in an RPG format, the college seeking to find eldritch knowledge at any cost, the fishing hamlet, the influence of eldritch beings, potentially the nightmare where reality warps.

The players being murderous scholars is probably a step most would be unwilling to take, so they should probably be present for other reasons, relegating the scholar to an NPC. Probably better as just one or two rather than a larger group, because I feel like having too many would detract from the eldritch aspects of things. So let's say one scholar, there on false pretenses in order to observe the locals with the ultimate intention of abducting and vivisecting them to check if they really are under the influence of something unnatural.

The hamlet itself is a good setting, small, contained, potentially remote, inherently evokes the ocean and the mystery and wonder it involves. So let's say the hamlet is partly corrupted into worshipping the eldritch being involved, and there are physical changes taking place. Not super obvious ones, but more subtle things like skin becoming paler and thinner, eyes more watery and a few strange growths here and there inside the body. They're not bad by any means, the eldritch forces aren't evil, just weird and unnatural.

Eldritch beings, the real meat and potatoes of Bloodborne, and other Lovecraftian material. I think an eldritch entity of some sort basically has to be kept in translating the idea to an RPG, but I'm not sure how much agency it should have. To an extent I lean towards less is more, the entity is present for reasons mortals don't really get and that it can't change or explain to others, and it's not deliberately doing anything to the hamlet. The mere presence of this being is affecting the locals in various ways, making them mutate and go slightly insane. Not sure if I would keep it being pregnant like Kos from Bloodborne was, but it's certainly a good way to emphasise the real horror of the scholars when one tries to cut a pregnant god open to study the foetus they can pull from it in search of a way to become a god themselves.


As for the nightmare, sadly I think it only really fits in the context of being around after the events have taken place, but the core idea of reality being twisted and warped would work as a phenomena that happens when you get close to the eldritch god. Earth, sea and sky warp and weave into strange and unnatural arrangements as higher dimensions intrude upon the mortal world in the presence of the divine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2022, 05:00:02 am

Warhammer Fantasy rules or Dark Heresy rules would be neat fits for a bloodborne RPG where mortality, insanity and mutation is high. It wouldn't take very much tweaking at all to just switch all references of Chaos to the Old Blood

Quote from: Grim Portent on February 28, 2022, 10:09:44 pm

Not sure if I would keep it being pregnant like Kos from Bloodborne was, but it's certainly a good way to emphasise the real horror of the scholars when one tries to cut a pregnant god open to study the foetus they can pull from it in search of a way to become a god themselves.

...Some say kosm

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 01, 2022, 02:58:20 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on March 01, 2022, 05:00:02 am

Warhammer Fantasy rules or Dark Heresy rules would be neat fits for a bloodborne RPG where mortality, insanity and mutation is high. It wouldn't take very much tweaking at all to just switch all references of Chaos to the Old Blood

Quote from: Grim Portent on February 28, 2022, 10:09:44 pm

Not sure if I would keep it being pregnant like Kos from Bloodborne was, but it's certainly a good way to emphasise the real horror of the scholars when one tries to cut a pregnant god open to study the foetus they can pull from it in search of a way to become a god themselves.

...Some say kosm

Aye, that would be an easy enough conversion, but I'm not sure it would even be necessary. Assuming the PCs are not interested in pursuing enlightenment then they wouldn't necessarily be at risk of going insane or mutating.

A modified Warhammer RPG or World of Darkness would be my go to's for trying to get the authentic Bloodborne experience, but I think a lot of the material would work in most RPGs as long as the players aren't super powerful in a 'rewrite reality to save everyone,' kind of way. The primary vibe is horror, and while some RPGs don't do horror well a very large part of it comes down to presentation more than it does mechanics.

Like, the intersecting lines of horror I see here come from the fact there is no good choice.

The Great One is innocent, acting without malice and maybe even without control, but her mere presence has ramifications for others. Terrible ramifications.

The fishing hamlet haven't done anything wrong, they were just keeping to themselves, but now they are twisting and warping. Some of them are in great pain and could be in need of euthanasia, some of them have become dangerous to others through no fault of their own.

The scholar has done a lot wrong, but for arguably good, albeit selfish, reasons. The eldritch and mystical unrestrained does terrible things to people, but only through understanding can it be controlled and harnessed. Enlightenment at any cost is arguably preferable to expectant mothers being consumed from within when their foetus turns into a hive of carnivorous eels because the Stars are Right.

No matter how hard you swing a sword or how much fire you can conjure in your hands this situation remains horrible, because there are only horrible ways to fix it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on March 01, 2022, 04:56:00 pm

Hugh's Hue Hewer. The magical sword that grants protection against spells like Chromatic Orb and Color Spray. Or maybe casts them, I haven't entirely decided yet

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 01, 2022, 05:00:46 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 01, 2022, 02:58:20 pm

Aye, that would be an easy enough conversion, but I'm not sure it would even be necessary. Assuming the PCs are not interested in pursuing enlightenment then they wouldn't necessarily be at risk of going insane or mutating.

A modified Warhammer RPG or World of Darkness would be my go to's for trying to get the authentic Bloodborne experience, but I think a lot of the material would work in most RPGs as long as the players aren't super powerful in a 'rewrite reality to save everyone,' kind of way. The primary vibe is horror, and while some RPGs don't do horror well a very large part of it comes down to presentation more than it does mechanics.

Like, the intersecting lines of horror I see here come from the fact there is no good choice.

The Great One is innocent, acting without malice and maybe even without control, but her mere presence has ramifications for others. Terrible ramifications.

The fishing hamlet haven't done anything wrong, they were just keeping to themselves, but now they are twisting and warping. Some of them are in great pain and could be in need of euthanasia, some of them have become dangerous to others through no fault of their own.

The scholar has done a lot wrong, but for arguably good, albeit selfish, reasons. The eldritch and mystical unrestrained does terrible things to people, but only through understanding can it be controlled and harnessed. Enlightenment at any cost is arguably preferable to expectant mothers being consumed from within when their foetus turns into a hive of carnivorous eels because the Stars are Right.

No matter how hard you swing a sword or how much fire you can conjure in your hands this situation remains horrible, because there are only horrible ways to fix it.

Probably you'd want to go with a system that could handle the monsters and NPCs well. And also combat that isn't unpleasant to run (whatever that means for this group). The intricate combat from the game might be very long at a table with multiple people playing, and might make character death more common.

I guess also make sure you have a plan for dealing with character death: some horrible curse where they can't leave until a solution is arrived at, or a continuous shipment of new recruits. Either one seems like it'd be easy to make add to the horror feeling of the game.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2022, 05:06:30 pm

my gut would say call of cthulu because of insight, but also in that game PCs are expected to be shit at combat, unlike BB.

Quote from: Kagus on March 01, 2022, 04:56:00 pm

Hugh's Hue Hewer. The magical sword that grants protection against spells like Chromatic Orb and Color Spray. Or maybe casts them, I haven't entirely decided yet

Sword slowly shifts between different rainbow hues over time, or maybe each time it's drawn.  Could be a set ROY G BIV pattern per turn or just random.  On strike it does the matching prismatic spray effect.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 01, 2022, 09:16:21 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 01, 2022, 05:00:46 pm

Probably you'd want to go with a system that could handle the monsters and NPCs well. And also combat that isn't unpleasant to run (whatever that means for this group). The intricate combat from the game might be very long at a table with multiple people playing, and might make character death more common.

I guess also make sure you have a plan for dealing with character death: some horrible curse where they can't leave until a solution is arrived at, or a continuous shipment of new recruits. Either one seems like it'd be easy to make add to the horror feeling of the game.

Sadly getting my current group to play anything other than D&D 5e is like pulling teeth, so if I do even get to run the idea it would almost certainly need to be adapted to 5e. Unless I manage to piece together enough other people from the local gaming club, but I've been holding out hope for getting a Black Crusade game going with the club.


I did think about adapting Bloodborne into the nWorld of Darkness system a few years ago, but never really got into the nitty gritty of it. Basic idea was hunter origins and covenants serving as the lineage and faction choices, Insight and Beasthood meters as an equivalent to things like humanity and blood potency. Set the whole thing in Yharnam before the burning of Old Yharnam, with the burning itself serving as a climactic finale as the workshop hunters fracture and get replaced by the church hunters. General vibe would have been about clandestinely hunting the newly emerging scourge of beasts, trying to keep it hidden from the general public, dealing with the philosophical quarrels of the hunters and the church, only for the plague to hit a boiling point and an entire chunk of the city to turn into monsters.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2022, 10:25:02 pm

tbh there was a "Hunter the Whatever-it-was-ining" for old world of darkness, but I think that was more concerning fey stuffs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 01, 2022, 10:34:48 pm

World of Darkness names still confuse the heck out of me, but for some editions: Changeling was playing as escaped fey, and Hunter was playing as "humans".  Supposedly baseline, sorta, but potentially using faith or dark science.  Or just stronger than normal.

Edit: Notably (from what we heard from the ST) they used a lot of team-tactics which helped them overcome their inherent weaknesses in the setting.  they sure came prepared, as antagonists.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on March 01, 2022, 10:46:22 pm

Which is pretty different from bloodborne hunters who are blood-echo-fueled monsters of utter brutality and mayhem despite being theoretically human. :p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on March 01, 2022, 11:37:09 pm

A Bloodborne hunter is just a beast wearing human skin. That's why they're all destined to become one in the end.

I think DnD is a very appropriate system to model their badassery with. If you're playing as hunters, you're gonna get into theatrical fights. Play Call of Cuthulu if you want to RP wimpy scholars who run instead of fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on March 01, 2022, 11:40:15 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on March 01, 2022, 11:37:09 pm

Play Call of Cuthulu if you want to RP wimpy scholars who run instead of fight.

Well if you fight an Elder God usually you lose, running is the only smart decision in CoC.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 02, 2022, 12:21:56 am

Quote from: Horizon on March 01, 2022, 11:40:15 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on March 01, 2022, 11:37:09 pm

Play Call of Cuthulu if you want to RP wimpy scholars who run instead of fight.

Well if you fight an Elder God usually you lose, running is the only smart decision in CoC.

"I sleep in that day"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 02, 2022, 03:13:20 am

Don't worry. I am proficient in Vehicles (Sea)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 07, 2022, 03:50:38 am

I'm bringing this over from the thread it was in since ttrpgames:

Quote from: Iduno on February 28, 2022, 03:28:39 pm

Quote from: scriver on February 28, 2022, 07:35:51 am

I just need to plug this cute little game I found and fell in love with during Steam's demo-showcasing week (still going on as of now): Small Saga (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1320140/Small_Sag)

It's basically a classical jrpg-style (pastiche?) game about mice living below the streets.

It got my attention from the start just because of this awesome concept art: (https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steamcommunity/public/images/clans/40616084/6a863f04e47a9bcfb40acec73de1e4b35557d351_960x311.png)

That first picture looks a lot like Mouseguard. Although, while trying to look up the name I found like a half dozen other mouse-themed TTRPGs, so there might well be several valid influences.

How'd they look, and/or could I have a link? I've been musing about that kind of plots since I played said demo. I've only looked up Mousegard so far but I didn't get a good look at it since it's paywalled (you know you have to buy it first before looking at it, so unfashionable :P ) so maybe I'll try to find a decent podcast of it or something.

Anyone got any experience with it or others like it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 07, 2022, 07:33:18 am

Swiss army mouse is such a cool idea

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 07, 2022, 01:54:29 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on March 07, 2022, 07:33:18 am

Swiss army mouse is such a cool idea

Lighter mage mole is pretty cool, too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: brewer bob on March 08, 2022, 09:16:09 am

"I'll just make a couple of minor changes to the history of the Warhammer World."

Been lately thinking of running a Warhammer Fantasy RP (1st ed) campaign, and decided to do some changes to the history. Well, as things tend to go, small changes begin to swell, becoming huge changes. So, now I'm at the point where I've reworked (or made a draft) the ancient history to the point that many things are significantly different from "canon" (doesn't really matter, though, as I was basing the lore more on 1st edition stuff before all the WFB retcons and edgy WFRP 2nd ed stuff). The original idea I had for the campaign has been ditched, and now I'm more thinking of some Bronze Age swords & sandals style Warhammer (or Bronzehammer, if you will).

I'm pretty sure this project will end up being scrapped when I realize I'm putting too much of my time into it, but hey, at least I've had a good excuse to read more about ancient Mesopotamia, Africa and such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 08, 2022, 08:22:31 pm

Quote from: brewer bob on March 08, 2022, 09:16:09 am

"I'll just make a couple of minor changes to the history of the Warhammer World."

Been lately thinking of running a Warhammer Fantasy RP (1st ed) campaign, and decided to do some changes to the history. Well, as things tend to go, small changes begin to swell, becoming huge changes. So, now I'm at the point where I've reworked (or made a draft) the ancient history to the point that many things are significantly different from "canon" (doesn't really matter, though, as I was basing the lore more on 1st edition stuff before all the WFB retcons and edgy WFRP 2nd ed stuff). The original idea I had for the campaign has been ditched, and now I'm more thinking of some Bronze Age swords & sandals style Warhammer (or Bronzehammer, if you will).

I'm pretty sure this project will end up being scrapped when I realize I'm putting too much of my time into it, but hey, at least I've had a good excuse to read more about ancient Mesopotamia, Africa and such.

Warhammer was uh heavily influenced by English Imperialsim and Thatcherism. I'm curious how a modern take with the old systems would work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: brewer bob on March 09, 2022, 06:54:29 am

Quote from: Iduno on March 08, 2022, 08:22:31 pm

Warhammer was uh heavily influenced by English Imperialsim and Thatcherism. I'm curious how a modern take with the old systems would work.

Yeah, that's one of the charms of Warhammer with all the bad puns and such (though I didn't get the jokes as a kid when reading the 1st ed stuff). The 4th edition stuff gets pretty close to the old feel, imo.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 09, 2022, 10:53:39 am

Idea for an evil spirit, which I am nicknaming Darklings for the moment.

Darklings are malicious predatory beings, which appear as fanged mouths on serpentine necks, which dissapear into darkness too thick to see into. They can only manifest in conditions of little or no light, they dissapear like the shadows they call home when exposed to bright light. Darklings are unable to physically affect any living being that has not killed another person, but they can be seen like any other creature and speak to anyone they wish.

Darklings know everything, and can only speak the truth. In theory this would be of great benefit to mortals, but the darklings speak in riddles and half-truths, only telling the full truth of any subject when it will lead the listener towards acts of violence against other mortals. Darklings willingly appear before the paranoid, the frightened or the angry, whispering to them of the things that will drive them deeper into dark emotions, hoping to drive them to acts of murder, after which the darklings can feast upon their pawn at will, slithering from the shadows to burrow into flesh and feed on the heart.

Darklings like to convince people their friends are conspiring against them, that their loved ones are having affairs, that business rivals seek to murder them, and other dreadful things. Sometimes the darkling is even telling the whole truth, it matters little to them. They delight in the mental anguish of their victim confronting betrayals real or imagined, supping upon every misinterpretated word, each misunderstood gesture.

Should the victim ultimately take their own life as a result of the darkling's words, rather than that of another, the darkling is able to infest their body. The possessed victim is returned to a half-life for a brief time, which the darkling uses to spread more mental anguish, writing letters from the deceased to the living, or bringing their host to a location where their body might be interpreted as a murder victim. Very rarely a darkling is able to truly possess their victim, restoring them to full life and taking up root in the back of their soul, guiding and influencing them for the darklings own sadistic pleasure until their body meets it's end once more.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 09, 2022, 03:28:38 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 09, 2022, 10:53:39 am

Idea for an evil spirit, which I am nicknaming Darklings for the moment.

Darklings are malicious predatory beings, which appear as fanged mouths on serpentine necks, which dissapear into darkness too thick to see into. They can only manifest in conditions of little or no light, they dissapear like the shadows they call home when exposed to bright light. Darklings are unable to physically affect any living being that has not killed another person, but they can be seen like any other creature and speak to anyone they wish.

Darklings know everything, and can only speak the truth. In theory this would be of great benefit to mortals, but the darklings speak in riddles and half-truths, only telling the full truth of any subject when it will lead the listener towards acts of violence against other mortals. Darklings willingly appear before the paranoid, the frightened or the angry, whispering to them of the things that will drive them deeper into dark emotions, hoping to drive them to acts of murder, after which the darklings can feast upon their pawn at will, slithering from the shadows to burrow into flesh and feed on the heart.

Darklings like to convince people their friends are conspiring against them, that their loved ones are having affairs, that business rivals seek to murder them, and other dreadful things. Sometimes the darkling is even telling the whole truth, it matters little to them. They delight in the mental anguish of their victim confronting betrayals real or imagined, supping upon every misinterpretated word, each misunderstood gesture.

Should the victim ultimately take their own life as a result of the darkling's words, rather than that of another, the darkling is able to infest their body. The possessed victim is returned to a half-life for a brief time, which the darkling uses to spread more mental anguish, writing letters from the deceased to the living, or bringing their host to a location where their body might be interpreted as a murder victim. Very rarely a darkling is able to truly possess their victim, restoring them to full life and taking up root in the back of their soul, guiding and influencing them for the darklings own sadistic pleasure until their body meets it's end once more.

I *really* need to get an Earthdawn game together.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 14, 2022, 08:04:05 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 09, 2022, 03:28:38 pm

I *really* need to get an Earthdawn game together.

Not familiar with Earthdawn, have they already done the idea?



I find myself with an idea for a MTG themed RPG campaign rattling through my head again. Basic idea has been in my head for a while, since WotC started putting out their first crossver material for MTG and D&D, though annoyingly they've not released any material relevant to what I'd like to do. Phrexian material to be specific, the flesh and metal melding sociopaths.

Gist of the idea is that the New Phyrexians try to travel from their world using experimental technology, which fails partway through and results in their test vessel crashlanding in the setting the game takes place in. The phyrexian crew is mortally wounded or killed outright in the crash, and the PCs are people who get sent to investigate the explosion caused by the crash. From there an initial couple of choices present themselves, save any injured Phyrexians, or let them die. Partake of the Phyrexian Oil leaking from the injured travellers or avoid it, so on and so forth.

From there it becomes either the PCs as the vanguard of Phyrexia, gradually growing in power and changing form, pursuing their own versions of the Phyrexian ideal and reshaping the world in their image, or the PCs facing off against the creeping corruption that is occurring as a result of the oil seeping into the ground and reproducing from there, slowly tainting plants, animals and eventually people. In either case, the Praetors of New Phyrexia are trying to send more of their forces to enforce their own vision of Phyrexia on this new world, which will likely result in conflict with the New-New Phyrexians that are already forming and coming up with their own ideas.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 14, 2022, 08:41:20 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 14, 2022, 08:04:05 pm

Quote from: Iduno on March 09, 2022, 03:28:38 pm

I *really* need to get an Earthdawn game together.

Not familiar with Earthdawn, have they already done the idea?

Perhaps not that one, but their monster descriptions are pretty similar. Specifically the Horrors, which are more-or-less demons/demonic spirits who show up when magic gets powerful enough (which causes the apocalypse the setting is post-apoc from). They feed on negative emotions they cause, and get real weird sometimes.

Plus, it's the system D&D keeps cribbing most of their changes off of. Although it's a different system, so some of the changes are badly balanced (3.x skill system) or seem out of place.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 15, 2022, 07:15:29 pm

I've been playing Crusader Kings a lot lately, and it's got me thinking about a World of Darkness Vampires game I wanted to run a few years ago, but never got any interest for in my group.

The fall of the Byzantine Empire, but from the perspective of vampires living in Constantinople. Venetian merchants, greek nobles, orthodox priests, arabs, persians, scholars and travellers from across the mediterranean, varangians who became part of the midnight aristocracy back when the northmen were still doing the whole viking mercenary thing. All skulking in the shadows of the empire and facing the arrival of the Ottomans who have their own vampires coming with them threatening to disrupt the social dynamics and power structures the vampires are used to, not to mention the risks to unlife and limb posed by war.

In particular I have the idea that most of the vampires have preemptively fled, following the destruction of the vampires in a lot of territory the Ottomans captured earlier, leaving only the most desperate, pious, patriotic or insane vampires behind. Leadership has fallen to an old, mad distant relative of the emperor who refuses to leave because he's confident that the invaders will be stopped, while the other vampires scramble to preserve their own holdings in the city, work themselves into an anti-Turkish frenzy or try to make contact with the foreign vampires to try and negotiate terms seperately from the ones the mortals will sort out.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on March 16, 2022, 12:01:10 am

In the aquatic campaign I'm running, I've dolled out two curses and the party are loving it. (I tend to go for physical, non-mechanical curses, such as appearing to be a little gorilla) Got any curse ideas that I can toss on the pile? My party has pretty easy access to removing curses, and that's beneficial for the plot (returning to the central hub).

Currently: one party member got turned into an NFT gorilla, and got it cured, but passed on a curse of Not Enough T(estosterone) to give another player disadvantage on checks to flirt.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on March 16, 2022, 11:40:06 am

Quote from: delphonso on March 16, 2022, 12:01:10 am

In the aquatic campaign I'm running, I've dolled out two curses and the party are loving it. (I tend to go for physical, non-mechanical curses, such as appearing to be a little gorilla) Got any curse ideas that I can toss on the pile? My party has pretty easy access to removing curses, and that's beneficial for the plot (returning to the central hub).

Currently: one party member got turned into an NFT gorilla, and got it cured, but passed on a curse of Not Enough T(estosterone) to give another player disadvantage on checks to flirt.

One skill or stat increased, 2 decreased by the same amount. Chosen by RNG, and the player doesn't know which ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on March 16, 2022, 11:45:23 am

Tiny army of darkness style heads growing from various places. Jumps to another party member/nearby person if removed. Leave alone too long and they sprout, making tiny fish-gremlin styled clones. Not directly dangerous, mostly, but a thorough nuisance fond of making noises at inopportune times!

e: have one of them sweat butterflies. Not sure how it'd work underwater, but you could figure it out. Someone leaving behind a trail of drowned bugs as they swim would be amusing :V

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: hops on March 16, 2022, 11:40:41 pm

Yalls ever make a hyper-specific homebrew?

Quote from: Tenser's Rideable Floating Disk

1st level Conjuration (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Target: An unoccupied space of your choice that you can see within range
Components: V S M (A drop of mercury)
Duration: 1 hour
Classes: Wizard
An improved version of Tenser's Floating Disk, after one wizard realized that there is no reason they shouldn't be able to use it to locomote more comfortably.

This spell creates a circular, horizontal plane of force, 3 feet in diameter and 1 inch thick, that floats 3 feet above the ground in an unoccupied space of your choice that you can see within range. The disk remains for the duration, and can hold up to 500 pounds. If more weight is placed on it, the spell ends, and everything on the disk falls to the ground.

You may command the disk to move at the same speed as you are while you are on, or touching, the disk. Otherwise, the disk is immobile while you are within 20 feet of it. If you move more than 20 feet away from it, the disk follows you so that it remains within 20 feet of you. It can move across uneven terrain, up or down stairs, slopes and the like, but it can’t cross an elevation change of 10 feet or more. For example, the disk can’t move across a 10-foot-deep pit, nor could it leave such a pit if it was created at the bottom. The disk is not slowed down by difficult terrain.
   
If you move more than 100 feet from the disk (typically because it can’t move around an obstacle to follow you), the spell ends.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on March 17, 2022, 12:16:24 am

Quote from: Frumple on March 16, 2022, 11:45:23 am

e: have one of them sweat butterflies. Not sure how it'd work underwater, but you could figure it out. Someone leaving behind a trail of drowned bugs as they swim would be amusing :V

This sort of cosmetic curse is my favorite.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 17, 2022, 08:16:36 am

The character is cursed to smell vaguely of catnip.  This minty scent is probably an improvement according to most other people, but the character inevitably attracts unwanted attention from every stray cat in town.  Cats may-or-may-not get high trying to lick the character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on March 17, 2022, 08:22:31 am

Everything he eats and drinks looks spoiled, but only to other people.  His dinner is perfectly fine, but to everyone around him it looks and smells like he's eating rotten steak and drinking stagnant pond water.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 17, 2022, 03:32:49 pm

Idle thought, a setting where the only humans are vampires and other similar ancient undead. For metaphysical reasons, and a bit of fantasy racism, only humans can become true free willed undead, and all humans have long since either done so or died.

The mortal races, elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins and so on don't have records that predate the current state of affairs, so they don't actually know what humans are. They just call the species 'vampires,' because almost every extent human is a vampire and the others are barely recognisable. This in turn leads to weird conclusions about the origins of their own races, the possible origin of vampires and so on.

Elves point to the broad, brutish features and say that cleardy vampires originated from the same stock as dwarves and orcs, or are a crossbreed of the two.

Dwarves point to the tall, lanky bodies and violent ways and say clearly they're of elvish and orcish stock.

A rare few scholars theorise that the mortal races are descended from vampires, citing the presence of vampire-like skeletons in ancient ruins and artwork scattered throughout the world.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Nirur Torir on March 18, 2022, 06:02:46 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 17, 2022, 03:32:49 pm

Idle thought, a setting where the only humans are vampires and other similar ancient undead. For metaphysical reasons, and a bit of fantasy racism, only humans can become true free willed undead, and all humans have long since either done so or died.

The mortal races, elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins and so on don't have records that predate the current state of affairs, so they don't actually know what humans are. They just call the species 'vampires,' because almost every extent human is a vampire and the others are barely recognisable. This in turn leads to weird conclusions about the origins of their own races, the possible origin of vampires and so on.

Elves point to the broad, brutish features and say that cleardy vampires originated from the same stock as dwarves and orcs, or are a crossbreed of the two.

Dwarves point to the tall, lanky bodies and violent ways and say clearly they're of elvish and orcish stock.

A rare few scholars theorise that the mortal races are descended from vampires, citing the presence of vampire-like skeletons in ancient ruins and artwork scattered throughout the world.

That has good prequel potential, too.
The players, all human, are a group of broken-down nobodies, newly inducted as fodder into a traditional back-stabbingly aristocratic vampire coven shortly before an apocalyptic magical war. The prequel plays out with plentiful time skips, and the players get to play through societal shake-ups as the disposable minions become priceless, each eventually ending up with tens of thousands of years of skills.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2022, 06:18:16 am

I'm currently planning in the works a Dark Heresy game for a bunch of players who are most certainly not 40k players. One played the tabletop but knows nothing about the lore; the other two never played the tabletop yet have been heavily indoctrinated by ITEHTTSD memes or Krieg shovel memes respectively. The latter two players in particular present a unique challenge, because their perspective of the Imperium is so laser-narrow focused on the expectation that the entirety of the Imperium is Kriegers charging trenches or Ultramarines doing tactical deep strikes. I already had to tell my player that I could not let him RP as a Krieger, because he would have to roleplay as a mute 12 year old boy soldier and he does not have the ability to do so entertainingly over discord.

But it is also an opportunity! Because I am going to throw them into a feudal swamp world where there is almost no Imperial presence at all.
Easily the thing I find coolest about the Imperium of Man's government is that it is a hegemony composed of factions upon factions, all of which have similar levels of authority and power. Interservice rivalry & wasteful duplication of responsibilities is standard practice, even within organisations. Most of all, the majority of the citizens of the nations that make up the planets that make up the Imperium are capable of living their entire lives without ever noticing the presence of the Imperium unless;

-They are subject to the tithe
-Their planet belongs to the direct control of an Imperial faction (e.g. ecclesiarchal world, administratum world, forge world, astartes recruitment world)
-Psykers & the black ships
-The planet is invaded by chaos or xenos, or rebels against the Imperium of Man

The way I interpret it, is similar to the frontiers of the Roman Empire in the England frontier, the Upper Nile frontier or the Euphrates frontier. Roman citizens living in any of these frontiers would only have the loosest sense of belonging to an Empire; few may notice at all the scant signs of authority. Roman coins. The occasional fortress garrisoned by Imperial soldiers. A wealthy plutocrat's foreign styled roman villa. A vague understanding that all their English tin or Egyptian wheat is being bought from somewhere.
But if the Sassanids advance down the Euphrates or a rebel pretender uses Britannia as their base of operations, suddenly Rome mobilises its legions and the common man becomes absolutely aware that they are living under Roman "protection."

So!

The players live in the Kingdom of Kitslevraya, which is itself situated on a planet called Chersonese. Almost all of the planet is shallow ocean water or marshy mangrove, there is very little in the way of true "dry" land. The primary mode of transport is canoe or canoe with outrigger, and everyone is a skilled navigator and swimmer from childhood onwards. The Chersoneseans navigate by the stars, and their oral traditions record that two of the stars they use for navigation are young (<4,000 years old), and appeared at the same time as the far-people. These two "stars" are actually orbital fortresses installed by the Imperium to safeguard Chersonese and control who goes in, and who goes out.

Imperial presence is minimal, and what few times a rogue trader or bold merchant shows up on-world every century or so, the people assume they have sailed from a far-away nation, not from another planet. Explorers from Kitslevraya occasionally set sail to try and find where the Imperium of Man is to try establish official relations, but Kitslevrayans to this day have failed to locate this powerful Empire. The world produces valuable resources; adamantium can be found in the ocean shelfs, the world is abundant in saltwater and wild sea-herbs have been known to enhance or suppress witch-craft on the planet. However, 4,000 years ago the Imperium sent an administratum explorator fleet which concluded the planet was uninhabited and useless, fit only for water harvesting. The paperwork for approving the tithe was however corrupted by unknown agents, resulting in the world of Chersonese being declared unpopulated and bereft of resources, with its status remaining unchanged even after the Imperial Admiralty and the Ordo Xenos took an interest in Chersonese.

The two orbital Fortresses, Chersonese I and Chersonese II often receive visitors from other Imperial factions, but few visitors are ever permitted to land on-world, or have any legitimate interest in doing so. Occasionally when a wrecked spaceship crashes into the planet, it is considered a gift from the God-Emperor, whose cult has spread amongst the local henotheistic pantheon which predates the Imperium's religion. The ecclesiarchy has no permanent presence on Chersonese, so there has been no real effort to stamp out the worship of "other gods."

The lone permanent Imperial presence on Chersonese is a beleaguered Magos Biologis from the Adeptus Mechanicus and her small coterie of tech-adepts and servitors. She is referred to the locals of Kislevraya as the "Oracle." The "Oracle" is deemed such, because she knows everything and can commune with the heavens (she has a powerful vox-caster). She and her group will look more like 19th century divers (think bioshock), with their augmentations looking more rubber and steel than the usual iron and flesh the mechanicus rock (rust / water pressure resistant augmentations). They are there to study the unusual warp-affecting sea herbs and really hate when the locals waste their time with stupid questions. What they consider stupid questions are subject to vast tirades of binaric screeching.

My players will be thrust into this world, in service to King Mana Oo'oo. King Mana Oo'oo's daughter has lost her dog (dog in this world = leopard seal descendent), and he wants them to find her seadog. Some people blame the neighbouring Kingdom of Parabang Brabant. Some blame a coven of witches. One local drunk claims he saw the dog taken by aliens from beyond the skies. Maybe the dog just got lost.


On a perhaps unrelated note, I love deploying bodysnatcher murder mysteries! Demonic possessions, intellect devourers (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/MM_IntellectDevourer.pdf), skin walkers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin-walker) and my all time favourite depiction - the bonethief! (https://eternaldarkness.fandom.com/wiki/Bonethief) I'm sure they'll be fine though. Even if I need more names for skin snatchers. Soul swappers. Nerve puppets. Head warmers.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 22, 2022, 07:26:39 am

Wouldn't the orbital forts move too much to be "stars," but perhaps new "planets"?  Planets, to old astrologers, were stars whose position would change relative to the usual star map.  Even if they were geostationary, their orbit is as long as the day so they "hang" over the same spot, I have some doubt it could be used as navigation.

Like I know 40k ships can inexplicably hang in an exact location in the sky like bricks don't, but I assume a permanent station might just orbit normally, takes less energy or something.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2022, 07:41:35 am

Oh yeah that's a huge oversight on my part. Although I do like the idea of the locals calling them the "wandering stars" and coming up with their own explanation for why two of the stars are chasing each other across the sky. They could still be used for navigation provided their orbital paths were predictable and the locals had a method to reliably determine the time - maybe they have their own watches/orreries/atykethera mechanism. The wandering stars would also be useful for navigation because you can see them in daytime, even when other stars cannot be observed

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 22, 2022, 09:13:19 am

Ah, I do love the '40k but you're so low on the pecking order you don't even know what the Imperium is,' premises. Have two of them myself (one for Dark Heresy one for Black Crusade,) which I will hopefully get to run one day.


It might be worth having rare relics from the ancient past of from the far-away, that can be used to communicate with the Voice Beyond, scattered throughout shrines and military posts in the larger settlements. Which is to say simple and crude vox units, usually barely functional, that can be used to contact a rather indifferent Administratum adept in one of the orbital stations who's job is technically to send supplies down to the planet's government and PDF, but because the locals barely understand what the vox even is, or lasguns, water purifiers and so on, so the job is basically to sit in a chair, shuffle paperwork and occasionally send a box of corpse-starch down when someone asks the Voice Beyond to help with a famine. Technically they could dump enough shoddy lasguns and budget flak armour vests to supply a few thousand local soldiers, but the locals are rather obtuse about learning to use far-tech and the Imperium doesn't care enough to actually teach them, so there's a bunch of supplies that have been mothballed for four millennia.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 22, 2022, 09:17:11 am

Okay, I can see that.

Another question: are both stations owned by the same faction?  I'd assume normally the imperial navy would just build one and call it a day.  The planet commands little to no surface presence, although the imperium could be wary of some outside presence.  It wouldn't surprise me if the mechanicus needed/wanted a separate station, though.  It could also be a beaucratic mishap, somehow the military built one station here, twice.

One station could also be some sort of civilian trade depot of some sort, it just happens to be large enough to be visible, 40k scaling and all that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2022, 02:21:10 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 22, 2022, 09:13:19 am

Ah, I do love the '40k but you're so low on the pecking order you don't even know what the Imperium is,' premises. Have two of them myself (one for Dark Heresy one for Black Crusade,) which I will hopefully get to run one day.

What've you got in the pipeline?

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 22, 2022, 09:13:19 am

It might be worth having rare relics from the ancient past of from the far-away, that can be used to communicate with the Voice Beyond, scattered throughout shrines and military posts in the larger settlements. Which is to say simple and crude vox units, usually barely functional, that can be used to contact a rather indifferent Administratum adept in one of the orbital stations who's job is technically to send supplies down to the planet's government and PDF, but because the locals barely understand what the vox even is, or lasguns, water purifiers and so on, so the job is basically to sit in a chair, shuffle paperwork and occasionally send a box of corpse-starch down when someone asks the Voice Beyond to help with a famine. Technically they could dump enough shoddy lasguns and budget flak armour vests to supply a few thousand local soldiers, but the locals are rather obtuse about learning to use far-tech and the Imperium doesn't care enough to actually teach them, so there's a bunch of supplies that have been mothballed for four millennia.

Just imagining a fat quartermaster with his mouth full of biscuits startled awake, asking "who is this?" As he finally gets a request for something impractical from the locals. They ask for some miracles and he does his best to figure out what exactly their problem is and whether he should send medicine, rations or bayonets.

I like to imagine he also has a boss who keeps track of his KPIs and customer satisfaction rate, so he can't slack off either, no matter how arcane the request is from the vox casters

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on March 22, 2022, 09:17:11 am

Okay, I can see that.

Another question: are both stations owned by the same faction?  I'd assume normally the imperial navy would just build one and call it a day.  The planet commands little to no surface presence, although the imperium could be wary of some outside presence.  It wouldn't surprise me if the mechanicus needed/wanted a separate station, though.  It could also be a beaucratic mishap, somehow the military built one station here, twice.

One station could also be some sort of civilian trade depot of some sort, it just happens to be large enough to be visible, 40k scaling and all that.

My thought was one station belonged to the mechanicus, as Magoses are pretty high ranking in the organisation structure and can call on some crazy resources, whilst the other station belongs to the Navy and hosts the Ordo Xenos presence which is largely there to spy on the Mechanicus and/or the planet

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 22, 2022, 04:37:18 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2022, 02:21:10 pm

What've you got in the pipeline?

Dark Heresy premise is a sort of post apocalyptic western, inspired by Mad Max and Red Dead Redemption more than anything else.

Setting would be a desert world, though I've forgotten what I was going to call it, a planet mostly consisting of a largely inhospitable desert with vast tracts of wreckage and scrap metal, with two large cities, one with a spaceport (the capitol,) and a set of smaller settlements and outposts from the various adepta there to rummage through the wastes for valuable resources or to try and find deposits of natural resources that have gone undiscovered. The wastes are mostly inhabited by nomadic junkers, with the odd oasis settlement based around old technology that makes a permanent settlement possible, like ancient hydroponics, water purifiers and weather control devices.

PCs would be members of a nomadic wasteland gang, with a big armoured train like vehicle with supplies and water condensers and things that serves as their home, and a bunch of bikes, cars, speeders and animal mounts that get used to form a protective perimeter and to scout ahead. Something like a few dozen NPCs, plus the PCs, travelling through the wastes scrounging to survive, fighting off other wastelanders, imperial authorities who're unhappy about supplies getting stolen, and scrap-ghouls, a degenerate form of mutant cannibals that worship the wrecked machinery that litters the land. Necromunda meets Gorkamorka but with no Orkz type of thing.

The Imperium, or more specifically the Administratum, Arbites and off world nobles would be serving the narrative role of civilisation encroaching on the West that you see in a lot of Westerns. The nomadic junkers, the small settlements and so on are gradually being forced into a more conventional lifestyle so the Imperium can better exploit the resources they're discovering and rediscovering on the planet.

Had an idea for a reference to the Devil from old folklore, a daemonic spirit roams the planet in the form of a man dressed in a black suit and offers what seem to be the deals of a lifetime but which always end in tragedy.



Idea 2 is for a Chaos Feudal World, never thought up a name for it. Population would be baseline humans, ogryn, ratlings, psykers, and a handful of 'skeleton-wizards' which would be a degenerate cult of Dark Mechanicus adepts. World is split into kingdoms, baronies and other such arrangements, with everyone worshipping some combination of the gods of chaos and/or powerful daemons, but not always by the same name or in the same aspects. So one kingdom might revere Tcharr, the bringer of the flame of knowledge, while another would worship Zhenth, the lord of many faces. Both aspects of Tzeentch, or his daemons, but not necessarily friends because of doctrinal differences.

The PCs would be champions of one of the kingdoms, ideally they'd all be knights, literally the kind that ride horses and wear plate armour, but that's not strictly necessary for the premise it would just be cool. They'd have a few sessions of dealing with essentially D&D style adventures but in a world where everyone worships Chaos, then the sky would split apart and great meteors would rain from above, and dragons would soar in the skies above hordes of daemons with weapons of cruel painful light as the war to end all wars came to the world.

Which is to say the Imperial Guard would arrive to reconquer the world for the Imperium, with a little space marine support, aerial supremacy and vast regiments of infantry. Then the premise would be that the primitive but sorcerous natives of the world would face against the advanced but relatively less magical forces of the Imperium. WHF Chaos Warriors vs 40k Imperial Guard, from the perspective of the WoC essentially.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 22, 2022, 06:20:27 pm

1st one does feel gorkamorka sans orks.

Gorkamorka - ork = Gama

I do hope the devil has been beaten once in a music contest by some bards who happened to play the best song in the world

#2 reminds me of the bit of crossover lore where some WHF chaos maurauders accidentally raided some 40k space marines, got a good fight in and then just left after they were satisfied with their foes' prowess

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 22, 2022, 06:28:37 pm

'Course Gorkamorka is basically Mad Max but with Orkz, so any vehicle themed desert stuff in 40k is going to resemble 'Gorkamorka but X.'

2 was probably subconsciously inspired by that old bit of fluff, but it actually just grew out of an idea for an Imperial Feudal World party being dropped into Spaaaace after some adventures, and then being altered by all the theme park planets from Black Crusade. Think Tome of Blood, the Khornate expansion for BC is what really solidified the idea.


I also really want to try a game where the PCs are Chaos Knights, the building sized walkers rather than horsemen, engaging in war, tournaments and hunting megafauna, plus some situations where they have to dismount their iron steed to deal with things like internal House politics or challenges to their personal might.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 22, 2022, 07:28:53 pm

I love this whole concept a lot.  It reminds me of Might and Magic (6 specifically) where the setting is high-fantasy with unexplained but common magic, and there's these weird hints here and there, then suddenly it's like "What the fuck there's a computer in this dungeon".  And there's all this lore about a larger galaxy and sci-fi past and it's like "okay... cool... how do I banish the 'demons' with any of this".  I liked how the game just rolled with it instead of it being a huge reveal, because to the characters you're playing - it really isn't!  It's just more arcane nonsense they need to quest through.

40K is bombastic, and ridiculous in scope.  It's nice to see that become the mythology and arcane nonsense of a fantasy setting.  I love the Oracle especially.  Even if she cared to explain "science" to the locals, which she has no reason to do, it's not so simple as "Electricity is X".  Uplifting a culture is very difficult and nobody involved cares to do it!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 23, 2022, 04:38:52 am

These last posts gave been very inspiring, I agree

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 24, 2022, 09:55:40 am

Been ruminating on how to describe looking at an eldritch being as a GM, I have a few plot ideas that involve Lovecraftian things-beyond-comprehension, and the key to them is always presentation, and presentation can require forethought.

I'm thinking avoiding the usual imagery, tentacles and eyes and so on, might be a good idea. I'm thinking instead focusing on more abstract ideas and the way it makes the person looking at it feel.

Something along the lines of the following.

Quote from: Me, just now

You lift your head to look at it. Sharp pain blossoms in your eyes, blood trickles from your nose across your lips, you taste it. Harsh, metallic. Your teeth itch. For an endless moment you see it, wood rots to mulch and then dries to dust, life bursts forth and cascades into decay, impossible geometries fold in upon themselves as time and space recoil. The moment ends, you are looking at the floor again, drops of your blood dripping from your nose and chin to spatter the ground with crimson red.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: brewer bob on March 24, 2022, 11:02:10 am

Quote from: brewer bob on March 08, 2022, 09:16:09 am

"I'll just make a couple of minor changes to the history of the Warhammer World."

Yeah, things have (unsurprisingly) escalated from this. Now I've ditched the idea of doing a homebrew bronze age history for Warhammer and going for a "I'll just make my own fantasy world quickly" with all the notes I've been taking down. And as Earthdawn was mentioned here (one of my all-time favourite settings), I'm stealing a lot of stuff from that too. So, some kind of unholy mishmash of all kinds of stuff I've liked since a kid (there'll certainly be dinosaurs, too!).

Yet again another project I'll never finish, but it's a fun way to pass time.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 26, 2022, 03:12:54 pm

Dumb idea for a quest.

Adalhard, Duke of Thrydain entrusts the PCs with an important letter, and an accompanying large scroll to be delivered to his wife. Adalhard himself is taking part in a military campaign at this time, and hasn't been home for two years and may not return for some time.

During the journey to the duke's lands various brigands attempt to sieze the letter and scroll on behalf on unknown parties.

Upon successful delivery the Duchess is grateful, the PCs get their fee, and are asked to hang around for a week while she composes a reply for them to take back. Plenty of time for ordinary story shenanigans. After the week is up she gives the party a letter and similarly large scroll to take back to her husband.

Once again brigands try to steal it for unknown parties.

Quest ends when Adalhard is given the response, as he decides to offer the party other more important tasks because they have proven able and willing to travel long distances at some risk.


If the PCs decide to look at the letters or the scrolls, perhaps finding some way to open them without breaking the seals or by using magic, they will find that they're part of the Duke and Duchess' way of keeping the flame of romance alive despite years apart. Which is to say the letters are raunchy love letters, at least in part, and the scrolls are paintings, portraits of the Duke and Duchess in states of undress. The brigands trying to steal them are generally supposed to steal any correspondance for spying purposes, but there would be quite a bit of blackmail potential in these particular missives.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on March 28, 2022, 05:40:32 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 24, 2022, 09:55:40 am

Been ruminating on how to describe looking at an eldritch being as a GM, I have a few plot ideas that involve Lovecraftian things-beyond-comprehension, and the key to them is always presentation, and presentation can require forethought.

I'm thinking avoiding the usual imagery, tentacles and eyes and so on, might be a good idea. I'm thinking instead focusing on more abstract ideas and the way it makes the person looking at it feel.

Two ways about it imo

Gothic sublime, or Empirical cosmic

Gothic sublime, things are bright when it's dark and dark when it's bright. If you have a greebly, you reveal very little about the greebly until the time is right for everyone to get greebled.
Empirical cosmic, things are observed plainly and in great detail. Whereas horror usually keeps the monster hidden in great detail, empirical cosmic observes the greebly in such detail that the players know how many toes the elder one has.

Lovecraftian cosmic horror has kinda been diluted down to an "aesthetic" of tentacles and fishmen, but basically all of his main characters observe the weird things without going insane. Usually them going "insane" is not them going insane at all; the innsmouth detective is not going insane because fishmen are so terrifying, he's unnerved by them because they are familiar and remind him that he is himself a fishman feeling the call to the sea. He's not mad, he's acting on proper instincts. I like the video game adaptation of Call of Cthulhu where looking at statues of Cthulhu or Dagon make you go "insane," only you're not going insane because OH NO IT'S KALAMARI I'M GONNA GO INSAAAAAAAAAAANE, you're being reminded that you are an extradimensional sleeper agent.

Then there are the dream cycle ones. I like those ones because they skirt the line between gothic sublime and gothic mad science. Hobos and travelers being whisked off to dream Kingdoms and mad terrains where they know they should feel all sorts of things, but instead feel a surprise sense of belonging.

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 24, 2022, 09:55:40 am

Something along the lines of the following.

Quote from: Me, just now

You lift your head to look at it. Sharp pain blossoms in your eyes, blood trickles from your nose across your lips, you taste it. Harsh, metallic. Your teeth itch. For an endless moment you see it, wood rots to mulch and then dries to dust, life bursts forth and cascades into decay, impossible geometries fold in upon themselves as time and space recoil. The moment ends, you are looking at the floor again, drops of your blood dripping from your nose and chin to spatter the ground with crimson red.

Perhaps then you could twist it a bit, so instead of focusing on a rational, biblical "be not afraid" response to witnessing something arcane and terrifying, it is described as the players feeling things entirely at odds with the stimuli. So you get the physical description of something which provokes fear for life, but instead it engenders a sense of warmth and familiarity for example


Also what are some good ideas for "high technology of the Imperium" that would fit in to a feudal ocean world? It's got to be stuff that the locals could use, that also would come up with a good description that could bait you into seeing it fit at home in a fantasy setting. Something like a solar-powered light source, that the local priest says "will carry the light of the sun with you" or a pencil and paper that can be used underwater

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on March 28, 2022, 06:40:28 am

Embercatch box:  Feed it by placing it in a fire, and for days it will release a comfortable warmth when worn under clothes.  It can also light wet firewood when manipulated.  Rumored to be bring poor health with overuse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on March 28, 2022, 07:51:45 am

The Food of the Angels, a bland, nutritious and filling paste, which is mildly addictive, said to be eaten by the greatest warriors of the Sky People. It is lightweight, can be eaten straight from the container, stays edible for years and takes up less space than conventional food. It is in fact guardsmen grade corpse-starch paste rations with some mild chemical enhancements to encourage guardsmen to actually eat the stuff.


The Sun-Sailers, rare ships gifted from the sky-people, that move without sails, giving their helmsmen the ability to sail against the currents of the world sea. Solar powered watercraft, mostly on the small side. Not particularly fast, but made of tougher materials than the local vessels and driven by an electric motor rather than the wind. Biggest I'd shoot for is the size of a small yacht, room for about 8 people to stay in cramped conditions.

Windspeakers, arcane devices that foretell the weather, warning of storms or the deadly absence of wind that can leave ships adrift and lost. A form of auspex, mostly designed to predict the weather up to a few days in advance. Not always accurate, but will always manage to predict weather anomalies, such as rains of fish or amphibians, or the arrival of a crotalid migration, successfully for some reason.

Similarly, the Deepseers, rare and coveted items that can find and track schools of fish, whale-like creatures and other valuable sea creatures so that fishermen can find them more easily, as well as warning them of perilous features of the ocean such as coral reefs or sunken ice floats. Usually kept in well secured places when not in use, like the fortresses of nobles, because of how vital they can be to feeding a large community. It's a sonar device, capable of detecting large groups of small sea life, or individual large sea creatures as well as detecting things like reefs or large seaweed floats. Some are self powered, others need external power sources to function.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on March 28, 2022, 10:15:46 am

Storm Callers: On a planet that's mostly flat and water, lightning would be a Big Issue for anything that sticks out of the surface. These lightning rods range from stationary to semi-portable, will protect anything near them from being struck by lightning during storms. Only the wisest of sages can control them -- the locals fear them, misunderstanding their purpose and believing they bring lightning to them.

God Waker Towers: Attached to certain, tower-sized Storm Callers are these black complexes. When enough lightning strikes them, they churn to life with strange sounds and lights, as the spirits within are woken and brought back to life. Nobody with their wits about them goes near these cursed places, but tales are told of foolhardy folks who've ventured into these fortresses when the spirits were sleeping and found strange treasures within.
In actuality, they're ancient automated industrial complexes powered by the lightning strikes. Between storms, their batteries lose power and the machinery go back to sleep. Maybe they don't produce anything any more, having run out of materials long ago. But the machinery still churn and the lights still go on.

Quote from: Grim Portent on March 28, 2022, 07:51:45 am

The Food of the Angels, a bland, nutritious and filling paste, which is mildly addictive, said to be eaten by the greatest warriors of the Sky People. It is lightweight, can be eaten straight from the container, stays edible for years and takes up less space than conventional food. It is in fact guardsmen grade corpse-starch paste rations with some mild chemical enhancements to encourage guardsmen to actually eat the stuff.

What is it children
That fall from the sky?
Tayi tayay, tayayay
Manna from Heaven
From the Most High
Food from the Father
Tayi Tayay

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Scoops Novel on April 21, 2022, 10:47:53 am

What's something obvious you don't see in D&D?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on April 21, 2022, 04:16:27 pm

Spoiler: Oh oh!  I know this one! (click to show/hide)

A gelatinous cube!

wait does that mean- ah, crap.  *rolls next character*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on April 22, 2022, 01:22:13 am

A mimic disguised as a chest?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 22, 2022, 04:00:09 am

Quote from: Novel on April 21, 2022, 10:47:53 am

What's something obvious you don't see in D&D?

Player deaths. I've played with 3 DMs who played DnD exclusively, and without exception all of them were incredibly loath to actually kill players. This was especially painful with one DM who was incredibly murderous but never followed through - so we'd be cornered by beezelboss the infinite mega death uzumaki ouroboros muffin seller who'd clearly have us all dead to rights, and just before they killed any one of us they'd just walk away. The other one only let my character die after they got one-shot by a disintegration beam after I insisted my char be allowed to die, but then brought my char back to life anyways despite the death being a balls to the walls awesome heroic sacrifice. The third one actively hates Dwarf Fortress players because every DF player she has ever met has insisted on letting the dice fall and taking the story that follows, whereas she prefers to make the story that the dice follows. I was honestly surprised that I was not even the first DF player she had played with tbh, so there are more of us out there in the wilds

So yeah. There's no need to go out of your way to kill your player chars but if you make them immortal it robs the game of tension & consequence immediately
Unless you play a game where the player char is explicitly an immortal, in which case it gets different kings of !!Fun!!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 22, 2022, 08:04:32 am

Yeah, modern D&D editions practically give players plot armor.

1st edition, 0 hit points your dead.  Resurrection isn't guaranteed and is limited to your con.  Polymorph can just fail and off you.  Literally every poison in the game is lethal.  Roll a new character.

nowadays, 0 hit points your downed, get three saving throws to survive, get healing at any point before then you survive.  Resurrection just works so long as you can pay the material cost.

I think part of it is a cultural shift towards more telling a story with the PCs as actual main characters, rather than a simulation of a fantasy dungeon crawl.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on April 22, 2022, 11:46:47 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 22, 2022, 04:00:09 am

...so we'd be cornered by beezelboss the infinite mega death uzumaki ouroboros muffin seller who'd clearly have us all dead to rights, and just before they killed any one of us they'd just walk away...

Man, this describes me as a GM way too well.  It's something that I hate that I do but it's been so hard to break myself of the habit.  I'm very much a storyteller GM instead of the sort that lets the dice land where they will, which I'm pretty sure is at odds with the way most of my gaming group likes to play.

I actually committed a sin similar to this very recently in a GURPS horror game I'm running.  I ended up with the singular monster in a cramped corridor with the two PCs, where one of them had a laser pistol.  Either party could kill the other in a turn or two because of how deadly GURPS is, so I was afraid to get to this point too early in the game.  The armed PC was on the ground next to it, which is really bad in GURPS in this situation, so the monster really should have tried to kill her.  But... if I let the fight keep going either the monster or both PCs were going to end up dead and the game would be over.  So... I had it run away since they shot it in the face for some minor damage the previous turn.

I guess it could be worse.  It at least had some excuse to run once it realized what it was up against, but a psycho killer robot probably should have taken the risk of clobbering its victims even at its own peril.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on April 22, 2022, 12:40:37 pm

Mmm, I'm much more the 'let the dice fall' kind of person when I get into the GM mindspace. Probably something to do with my first RPGs being Warhammer ones.

Dick around when there's a sniper that can see you? Pretty good odds they'll manage to shoot you, possibly in the head, and that shot is likely to put you down or kill you outright.

Daemon attacks you? Run like hell or get ready for a last stand.

Marine shows up? Stay the hell out of their way.

Pack of wild dogs decide to chew on you? Climb a tree, because a pack of dogs is dangerous even when you have a gun.



In D&D this generally translates to enemies finishing people off or taking them hostage and demanding the others surrender, but them also not always wanting to do the whole fight to the death until only one side remains thing.

Bandits want people to rob or ransom, preferably without getting hurt in the process. You kill one of them, they're not going to be in a mood to be nice to you if they start winning, the dead guy was one of their friends or even family. Look to dangerous to rob? They'll just avoid you, run or negotiate.

Enemy soldiers mostly don't want a fight, but they're plenty vindictive if you hurt them or even just make things difficult for them.

Animals want to kill someone, secure the body and eat it, with a side order of vindictiveness if you hurt them badly but don't kill them. If one of you goes down while fighting wolves, they'll finish off the fallen and then focus on trying to keep the body rather than killing more people. Hurt a tiger without killing it and it will stalk you for miles because it is angry.

Be willing to kill PCs who are stupid or even just unlucky, it's how narratives form. The tale of the party is something that grows organically and can and should include unexpected tragedies, them being sudden makes them more meaningful for both the players and the GM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on April 22, 2022, 02:56:53 pm

For parties which include Small characters, or perhaps are forced to escort a convoy of gnomes or something, why not put in some predators who will just grab one of the little guys and then run?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 22, 2022, 04:26:37 pm

Gnone with the wind

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: JoshuaFH on April 23, 2022, 01:23:26 am

I've only ever DM'd a short oneshot. I've been considering DM'ing more, but I'm just running through possible interactions and situations in my head, and I'm not sure if I could just kill my hypothetical player-characters without seeming like an asshole. There definitely does feel like there's two ways to go about DM'ing: as a narrator, and as a wargamer. A narrator wants to collaboratively tell a story with his players, and obviously that story ends if he kills the characters; whereas a wargamer is expected to seriously try to kill his player's characters, that's his whole job.

To be both feels antithetical, but the task of DM'ing feels like it demands a perfect balance between the two. It really does feel like an impossible, contradictory compromise; so I'm not surprised to hear that people will simply shy away from one to embrace the other.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 23, 2022, 02:54:58 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on April 22, 2022, 04:00:09 am

Player deaths. I've played with 3 DMs who played DnD exclusively, and without exception all of them were incredibly loath to actually kill players.

This might have something to do with murder being considered illegal in many countries.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on April 23, 2022, 11:53:24 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on April 22, 2022, 02:56:53 pm

For parties which include Small characters, or perhaps are forced to escort a convoy of gnomes or something, why not put in some predators who will just grab one of the little guys and then run?

Depending on setting I run some animals/monsters like that.

Manticores, griffons, dragons, giant eagles and so on. They like to swoop down, grab someone and fly away to eat them. Like a hawk. Crocodiles, lizardfolk and large snakes do the same sort of thing, but by dragging people into the water, drowning them and proceeding to eat them. Generally not interested in eating everyone in the group, just one or two.

Unless it's Warhammer, manticores in Warhammer are psychopaths and will fight basically anything and everything they meet to the death just because they can. They're not hunting for food, they're murdering for fun. Griffons are similar in WHF, and will fight to the death out of stubborn pride. Course in Warhammer the general state of affairs is that if a flying carnivore the size of a rhino wants to kill you then it's going to, as opposed to D&D where a manticore is a modest speed bump.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2022, 12:47:15 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 23, 2022, 02:54:58 am

This might have something to do with murder being considered illegal in many countries.

Murder yes; killing no. All's fair on the table

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on April 23, 2022, 12:52:21 pm

all in the game yo.gif

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 23, 2022, 05:11:28 pm

"You got the rulebook, I got the shotgun"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on April 23, 2022, 08:35:35 pm

Quote from: JoshuaFH on April 23, 2022, 01:23:26 am

...I'm not sure if I could just kill my hypothetical player-characters without seeming like an asshole...

Something related to this is one of the big issues I have with killing PCs as a GM.  In general, it feels like my fault if it happens, as a failure of encounter design.  If I overtuned an encounter by putting too many enemies in it, that's my fault, at least if I don't give them a way out.

As a consequence of this, I also tend to use softball encounters all of the time instead of risking killing the PCs by mistake.

This is all one reason I don't like GMing and prefer to just write instead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2022, 06:43:57 am

Brainstorming idea: WH Chaos cults that embrace aspects of chaos that are often overlooked. Because half of my players are metagaming bastards and I don't want all the mysteries to be solved like "oh yeah these guys are x."

Nurgle: The Unbothered
A chaos faction that embraces nurgle's aspects of decay and entropy, instead of his usual rot and disease. Their domains are ancient ruins guarded by warriors who don armour whose paint long since faded away; where they walk, machines malfunction, weather patterns stagnate, fuel cells deteriorate and people become lethargic and despondent. Their ultimate goal is to achieve the heat death of realspace and the triumphant suicide of chaos.
I like to imagine these guys all have very refined and aristocratic accents befitting a long lost era, and have inherited Nurgle's stoic attitude towards anything occurring. They sway new members into joining, promising that although they cannot make their problems away, they can take their worries away. As a result this nurgle faction is often allowed to proliferate on menial factory worlds and agri-worlds, with Imperial overseers often pleased that dissent is at an all time low, productivity is at an all time high, blissfully unaware that the unbothered are subverting the world with calm and purposeful intent. When they aren't planning some grander machinations, they enjoy wasting non-renewable resources on idle trivialities, often encouraging the more excessive habits of Imperial aristocracy. As such they have a mutually beneficial relationship with a Slaaneshi faction, known as Dissolute Merovingia.

Apostate ΔP (Delta P)
Apostate ΔP was a low-ranking Enginseer who would have lived a dutiful and profitable life, had she not chanced upon a Horus-Heresy era incarnation wheel. Unlike her peers, ΔP was cursed with original thought, curiosity and the will to innovate. Instead of reporting her findings to her superiors, she began first to investigate the machine's functions. She had no problem at all navigating the user interface of the 10,000 year old device, the ease of which would have triggered the appropriate paranoia of any inquisitor - but seemed to ΔP proof that she was being limited by the dogma of the cult mechanicus. Her experiments began small; reviving first a rat, then a dog, then a grox. Some times she would revive creatures partially, or assemble chimerae, or experiment on servitors - things in between life and death, advancing her knowledge piece by piece. By the time she moved onto human subjects, she was declared an apostate and tech-heretic of the cult mechanicus, spending the rest of her life on the run from the mechanicus, the dark mechanicus and the ordo malleus. Apostate ΔP would have perished long ago had she not found a profitable alliance with a radical Inquisitor of the revivifactor faction within the ordo malleus, who was keenly interested in her work on bringing human souls back from the warp. It is unclear who amongst the hunters and the hunted is aware that the incarnation wheel was a device made in worship to nurgle, lord of rebirth and despair. For the incarnation wheel can bring souls back, but its cost is despair - the more potent the despair, the more power the machine collects.

Tzeentch: Mask of the blood god
A chaos cult that wears red, screams Khornate slogans and fights in melee. Actually a cabal of sorcerers doing their best to piss off Khorne and trigger retribution against a rival Tzeentch cult, the thin men.
Their plan is going to backfire ridiculously when Khorne approves of these sorcerers eschewing magic in favour of melee, and they're going to accidentally become an actual Khornate warband who uses their knowledge of sorcery to teach their followers how to hunt psykers and sorcerers. Just as planned?

The thin men
The thin men are nine xenos masquerading as humans who have forseen their deaths, and are manipulating events to ensure that their destiny is guaranteed. The thin men worship the god of fate and destiny with zealous revery, and believe everyone should march towards their destiny with confidence - after all, everything is in accordance with the architect's will. Whereas most tzeentch cults are subtle, the thin men are on a speedrun any% to piss off as many factions as possible to assure their own swift demise. The only catch is, they have to all fall together in the exact way prophesied, else they have failed to follow Tzeentch's will.

Khorne:
Layman Octan
Octan started his career as a mere scribe-adept seconded by the administratum to work under the planetary governor. Possessed of a glib tongue, sharp mind and iron will, Octan steadily accrued influence far in excess of his station as more and more officials depended on his counsel and more and more of his opponents met quick deaths. In his jurisdiction, when a judge acquits a murderer on a legal technicality, Octan's influence in the ruling is seen but not heard. Octan is a devotee of Khorne, as such he strives to ensure that honest murderers who commit crimes of passion are excused, or given more opportunities for violence, resulting in Octan accruing a steady backlog of killers who owe him favours. Not all convicts and accused are worthy of Khorne - Octan strives to ensure cowards and killers who kill for pleasure like a disgusting slaaneshi never see the light of day. As a result, to all outwards appearance Octan seems like a fair and impartial man.

Kalamat Pact
Besieged and isolated, many an Imperial world has died in the void without the Imperium noticing. Sometimes such a beleaguered planet turns to anyone who can help - and sometimes their calls are answered. Brass ships in the void appear and disgorge legions of disciplined warriors from the Kalamat Pact, who hail from a small human Empire that has existed outside the reach of the astronomicon and the imperium since the dark age of technology. Like most Khornates, they favour direct assaults on enemy positions. The Kalamat Pact however employ heavy use of combat engineers, close air support & artillery to ensure their success, using strategy and discipline often neglected by their more enthusiastic peers.

Slaanesh:
Dissolute Merovingia
The DM have their initials everywhere; they are sponsors of the most excellent art works, plays and holo-films, and their works are sufficiently patriotic that they make it past Imperial censors mostly intact. Skilled critics however can correctly interpret the subtle satire and undertones which quietly point out the Imperium's all too human flaws... But besides a few eccentricities, most artists sponsored by the Dissolute Merovingia would never be able to tell their patron is a front for a Slaaneshi plot. Except perhaps when their actors are forced to redo a scene 211 times because the scene is never perfect enough.

2GOD
After discovering the secret of Slaanesh's genesis, the ordo xenos inquisitor Hayak Busano went rogue, being declared traitor excommunicato in absentia. Hayak believes chaos can ultimately be bent to humanity's will, and believes if one god could be made, then another could too. The rest of the inquisition is not keen to find out whether it is possible to make a second Slaanesh, and so it is only a matter of time before Hayak is hunted down and killed. Nevertheless, he leaves a trail of research just waiting to fall in the hands of those around him, ever widening the net of suspects who must be eliminated

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on April 24, 2022, 10:33:45 am

I'm not seeing any dread cults of Necoho, chaos god of atheism, in here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2022, 01:06:15 pm

Quote from: Kagus on April 24, 2022, 10:33:45 am

I'm not seeing any dread cults of Necoho, chaos god of atheism, in here.

There would be a cult for Necoho, but they don't believe in him

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on April 24, 2022, 01:46:12 pm

Well technically people do believe in him, but he doesn't believe in him so it's not very productive anyway.



Necoho is one of those things that would be quite funny to encounter in an RPG setting, but not for long.

Cult leader: 'Give praise my brothers, for we have summoned a daemon of the Warp!'

Necoho, in a summoning circle: 'Are you sure you have? I might just be a hallucination, or a guy who walked in here while you were all chanting with your eyes closed.'

Cult leader: 'But we performed the rights perfectly. Surely you must be a daemon?'

Necoho: 'Doubtful. You guys should probably stop all this stuff and go back to your proper jobs, ask that person you fancy out, have kids and focus on real stuff instead of all this nonsense about gods and daemons. I mean, what are the odds that daemons are actually real?'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 24, 2022, 03:40:33 pm

You could do a darker, more serious Necoho conspiracy that would have more longevity. There are already chaos factions that view chaos as something to be subjugated, not served. And there are inquistorial factions which few chaos as a useful tool to use against chaos. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to have serious Necoho followers who view Necoho as a mere manifestation of their lack of faith, with any daemons of Necoho sharing this disbelief, launching scathing attacks against the Ecclesiarchy or worshippers of Chaos

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on April 24, 2022, 08:23:15 pm

Quote from: Telgin on April 22, 2022, 11:46:47 am

I actually committed a sin similar to this very recently in a GURPS horror game I'm running.  I ended up with the singular monster in a cramped corridor with the two PCs, where one of them had a laser pistol.  Either party could kill the other in a turn or two because of how deadly GURPS is, so I was afraid to get to this point too early in the game.  The armed PC was on the ground next to it, which is really bad in GURPS in this situation, so the monster really should have tried to kill her.  But... if I let the fight keep going either the monster or both PCs were going to end up dead and the game would be over.  So... I had it run away since they shot it in the face for some minor damage the previous turn.

I guess it could be worse.  It at least had some excuse to run once it realized what it was up against, but a psycho killer robot probably should have taken the risk of clobbering its victims even at its own peril.

Well... continuing this game, the players went up against the robot again and letting the dice fall where they may promptly led to the robot getting wrecked by the first round of shooting.  Ever wonder who would win between a $1 million insane android or a $1,000 laser pistol you can pick up at a Space Dick's Sporting Goods?  GURPS definitely says the laser pistol, which is probably realistic.  I hoped the long range of the engagement would be enough to let the robot escape, but the player got a little lucky and landed 3 hits, each of which did enough damage to put down a normal human.

I suppose I learned a few things here.

First of all, if you give it a stat block, the players will kill it.

Second of all, if you have a monster for a monster horror game, have a better plan to make sure it doesn't die than just thinking you made it tough.

Third, have a plan for if it does die.

GURPS might not have been the best system to use here, since I gather that something like the Alien RPG specifically addresses some of this by making the big bad monster literally unkillable.  GURPS has rules for that too if you want to employ them, but that was drifting dangerously close to railroading.  There wasn't much point in letting the players bring guns if I wasn't going to let them work, after all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on April 25, 2022, 05:03:42 pm

Musing on PC ideas for a sort of industrial revolution type of fantasy setting.

One of the themes of the world is that a lot of races and monsters are in decline due to magical and industrial pollution and climate shifts, so things like dragons, elves, lizardfolk and so on are slowly dying out, and there's a FF7 style underground movement to blow up the factories and try to set things right.

As a lizardfolk fan (also tortles and snake-people,) I'm starting to think about a lizardfolk who isn't a lizardfolk, but rather a changeling raised as one. Actual lizardfolk stand out and can't sneak into more developed places to break dams, destroy machinery or incite rebellions, but a shapeshifter with the ethics of a lizardfolk, who has lived among them and holds their 'reject technology, return to crocodile,' mentality could actually be a fun way to incorporate a sneaky savage sort of PC into the premise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on April 25, 2022, 06:06:54 pm

Could be like Reptile from the classic Mortal Kombat games, a lizard person wearing a (somehow) convincing human disguise.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 18, 2022, 11:18:36 am

Got an idea for a lycanthrope themed one off adventure.

So the basic idea is your standard werewolf plot, people dying in an isolated estate or village, PCs are among the sort of people who's job is to go check this sort of thing out. Twist is that the villain isn't a werewolf, but rather a wolfwere, a largely forgotten and disused creature from editions past. A wolfwere is a sapient wolf that transforms into a human or wolf/human hybrid at the full moon.

So the evidence that exists is that travellers, woodcutters, gamekeepers and so on are being killed by wolves between full moons, and then during the full moon itself people are being murdered with old fashioned knives and axes and so on. The wolfwere doesn't kill every full moon, so as to better blend in when it needs to, but takes advantage of it's human appearance at the full moon to take victims by surprise, and as a lycanthrope it is immune to normal weaponry and therefore basically impossible to kill for someone who isn't prepared.

The townsfolk think they're dealing with a ritualistic murder cult or something, because while an unusual number of people are being killed by wolves, no one is being killed by wolves at the full moon, the usual tell of a werewolf.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 18, 2022, 01:38:06 pm

Hey, ever wanted to play a monk that didn't play like monk? No? Well I don't have any better intros to this concept, so whatever.

Presenting: The Wood Elf Drunken Master

So, this is kind of a funky one, and it's hardly the biggest powerhouse, but it does have a lot of peculiar synergies. Right off the bat, Wood Elf gives +Dex and +Wis, exactly what you want on a monk, in addition to an extra +5' movespeed that will stack on top of what you're getting from monk levels.

More interestingly, however, is that you gain automatic proficiency in longbows. While they're not technically classed as monk weapons, there's no real penalty to using non-monk weapons (except for not getting the free bonus action unarmed strike), and it uses your primary stat anyway so go ahead. In fact, this thing's going to be our primary armament for the most part, and you'll see why in a second.

So if we're going to be using a longbow, why are we not picking Kensai? Because Kensai is for squares, we're here to do stupid gimmicks. Specifically, we're looking for that sweet, sweet level 6 ability Leap to Your Feet, which lets us spend only 5' movespeed to stand up from a prone position.

Why is this relevant? Because then you can fire at something far away with your longbow, then simply fall over to end your turn, granting disadvantage to all attacks aimed at you from more than 5' away. At the start of your turn you just stand back up again for 5' of movement, spend however much more of your considerable movement allowance you want in order to run away from approaching threats, and repeat.

And if you happen to find yourself up-close and personal with someone, level 3 Drunken Master has your back with one free Disengage (plus +10' bonus movespeed) served with every Flurry of Blows. Just kick the offending personal space violator a few times and scoot.

If things go that far, at level 7 you also get Evasion, which is good for all the usual reasons. Combined with the fact that you're super speedy and can run away from melee foes, while pretty much guaranteeing disadvantage on ranged attacks against you in most circumstances, having that huge of a defense against DEX save abilities just helps round out your un-touchability even more.

Drunkard's Luck is a pretty nice subclass feature all things considered, but at level 11 you're probably not gonna see it. Might as well mention it for completion's sake though.


The combo really takes on some fun light if you're using the optional abilities from Tasha's (and since monk isn't exactly an OP class in general, it shouldn't be too unreasonable for the DM to okay them). First off is Dedicated Weapon at level 2, which lets you turn a weapon you're proficient with into a monk weapon. Wood Elf's longsword proficiency seems like a great pick, and lets you finally do stupid ninja shit with a big(ish) sword. Curiously, the text on martial arts specifically says that you can use a martial arts die in place of the normal weapon die for your monk weapons... Not that you have to. So go ahead and have fun with your d10 finesse weapon.

Then at level 5 there's Focused Aim, which lets you spend 1-3 ki points after missing an attack and getting +2 to your attack roll for every point spent. Which, y'know, is a seriously good combo with Sharpshooter if you happen to pick that up for even more longbow-related shenanigans (recommended).


So, basically... You're a drunk bowman zooming through the forests and tripping over themselves every few seconds while you relentlessly pepper your enemies with arrows that somehow still manage to find targets despite the fact that you clearly should not be trusted around objects any pointier than your ears.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 19, 2022, 01:20:39 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 18, 2022, 11:18:36 am

-snip- wolfwere

The only thing I would add is, is there any pattern to the people killed? Does the wolfwere do anything in its human form that it couldn't do as a wolf? E.g. is the wolf figuring out which humans are responsible for urban development, and is trying to reverse the spread of human settlements on wolf territory by redirecting them to bear territory?

Quote from: Kagus on May 18, 2022, 01:38:06 pm

-snip-
Presenting: The Wood Elf Drunken Master

That is a pretty robust monk idea, I wouldn't even say it's a gimmick because of how solid it would be in many many situations. Another fun one would be taking Kensei and walking around with a fake wooden sword whilst RP'ing as a pacifist. By investing just 1 ki point you can then use it as if it were a regular magic sword. Then you can start rambling about the philosophy of the ultimate swordsmen killing with a blade of grass e.t.c.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on May 19, 2022, 01:33:09 pm

Please tell me you could pull that off with a boat oar

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 19, 2022, 02:27:50 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on May 19, 2022, 01:20:39 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 18, 2022, 11:18:36 am

-snip- wolfwere

The only thing I would add is, is there any pattern to the people killed? Does the wolfwere do anything in its human form that it couldn't do as a wolf? E.g. is the wolf figuring out which humans are responsible for urban development, and is trying to reverse the spread of human settlements on wolf territory by redirecting them to bear territory?

My thought is that the wolfwere would use it's human form to target those that it can't hunt as a wolf. It's smart enough to know that if stories about a wolf that cannot die get around people will try silver, and it can't easily approach country estates, mayorial manors or village centers while a wolf. Opening locked doors is also tricky with paws.

As a man it can approach a community under the guise of needing shelter for the night, murder gate guards and steal their keys so it can slip into a guarded property or walled village. Actual targets of such killings would be rather opportunistic I think, unlike a werewolf it has no emotional connections to the people in the area, though killing the leaders of the communities is an obvious choice for an alpha predator with a sadistic streak to make, as is terror tactics designed to scare the surviving prey.

So targets for human killings; watchmen and sentries, local officials, the residents of noble estates including staff, especially staff if the noble is not currently in residence at that property. It is not quite smart enough, or just doesn't care, that killing nobles who aren't strictly local will draw lots of attention, and it hates people who hunt in it's forests anyway, which is what the landed gentry are likely to be in the area to do. While it is basically impossible to kill without preparation, it won't necessarily kill everyone in a given household in one night, but will generally kill almost everyone over the course of one full moon and then move on to a new household for the next one.

Wolf attacks on isolated people or small groups probably cluster towards the next intended target, forming a recognisable if somewhat confusing pattern.


BTW, does anyone else find Bearded Devils look really goofy in all their art?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on May 19, 2022, 10:26:42 pm

The motivation still seems a little unclear or uncompelling. Maybe it just really likes the taste of human flesh. Maybe the human form engages in cannibalism? That sounds interesting to me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on May 19, 2022, 10:43:34 pm

Quote from: heydude6 on May 19, 2022, 10:26:42 pm

The motivation still seems a little unclear or uncompelling. Maybe it just really likes the taste of human flesh. Maybe the human form engages in cannibalism? That sounds interesting to me.

I think I like how alien the motivation is.  The underlying question is:  What would a wolf do if it could occasionally infiltrate human society?

World of Darkness werewolves are (by default) forest protectors, environmentalists, and I like how this isn't that.  This is an animal "[using] its human form to target those that it can't hunt as a wolf".  It targets threats, "watchmen and sentries", and past that - seems inclined to terrorize the populace.  That's a natural (sic) extension of canine social dynamics, establishing dominance and eliminating threats.

It hates people who hunt in its forests.  Why?  Because they aren't letting it eat first from their kills.

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 19, 2022, 02:27:50 pm

BTW, does anyone else find Bearded Devils look really goofy in all their art?

I am fond of chain devils too.  Both are a little goofy if you don't have a character on the line.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 20, 2022, 05:22:46 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 19, 2022, 01:33:09 pm

Please tell me you could pull that off with a boat oar

I'd hope so, that'd be terribly oarsome

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 19, 2022, 02:27:50 pm

So targets for human killings; watchmen and sentries, local officials, the residents of noble estates including staff, especially staff if the noble is not currently in residence at that property. It is not quite smart enough, or just doesn't care, that killing nobles who aren't strictly local will draw lots of attention, and it hates people who hunt in it's forests anyway, which is what the landed gentry are likely to be in the area to do. While it is basically impossible to kill without preparation, it won't necessarily kill everyone in a given household in one night, but will generally kill almost everyone over the course of one full moon and then move on to a new household for the next one.

Everyone is arguing over who assassinated the Crown Prince. Some people think it's the King's daughter, or the secondborn son. Others think it is the rival Kingdom, or the King's first captain. Actually it's the dreaded wolfwere, who remembers the Crown Prince stole his hunt one time

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 19, 2022, 02:27:50 pm

BTW, does anyone else find Bearded Devils look really goofy in all their art?

Mostly, but not goofy enough. I love me goofy, scary devils with heads for groins

Quote from: Rolan7 on May 19, 2022, 10:43:34 pm

I think I like how alien the motivation is.  The underlying question is:  What would a wolf do if it could occasionally infiltrate human society?

Eat apples and learn about economics apparently

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on May 20, 2022, 06:42:38 am

Quote from: heydude6 on May 19, 2022, 10:26:42 pm

The motivation still seems a little unclear or uncompelling. Maybe it just really likes the taste of human flesh. Maybe the human form engages in cannibalism? That sounds interesting to me.

Fundamentally it's a reverse werewolf, where a normal werewolf engages in mindless animalistic slaughter because it represents the worst part of wolves, the wolfwere turns into a sociopathic serial killer because it represents the worst parts of humanity. It's fundamental motivations for killing are largely based on opportunism or percieved slights, and because it enjoys it rather than any reasonable anti-human sentiments like caring about the forests or opposing the spread of civilisation.

If anything it's a nicer person as a wolf than as a man because it isn't under the influence of the lunar curse, but it's still a rather insane wolf compared to the normal ones because it is still altered by it's cursed state.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 20, 2022, 07:12:59 am

Random thought: A medusa infected with vampirism would be the ultimate foe, as you wouldn't be able to look at them directly and wouldn't be able to see them in mirrors.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 20, 2022, 08:27:20 am

Quote from: Kagus on May 20, 2022, 07:12:59 am

Random thought: A medusa infected with vampirism would be the ultimate foe, as you wouldn't be able to look at them directly and wouldn't be able to see them in mirrors.

Until you've got a delta green squadron with camera lens visors or a blind swordsman who fights without seeing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on May 21, 2022, 02:34:49 am

I thought vampires couldn't show up on cameras ether.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on May 21, 2022, 03:38:59 am

Quote from: King Zultan on May 21, 2022, 02:34:49 am

I thought vampires couldn't show up on cameras either.

Presumably just SLR cameras and the like due to the mirror, digital should probably work just fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 08, 2022, 07:22:57 am

Nystul's/Arcanist's Magic Aura is poorly worded and either barely works at all or is potentially catastrophic in its uses.

Spoiler: Text of the spell (click to show/hide)

2nd-level illusion

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a small square of silk)
Duration: 24 hours

You place an illusion on a creature or an object you touch so that divination spells reveal false information about it. The target can be a willing creature or an object that isn’t being carried or worn by another creature.

When you cast the spell, choose one or both of the following effects. The effect lasts for the duration. If you cast this spell on the same creature or object every day for 30 days, placing the same effect on it each time, the illusion lasts until it is dispelled.

False Aura: You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects, such as Detect Magic, that detect magical auras. You can make a nonmagical object appear magical, a magical object appear nonmagical, or change the object’s magical aura so that it appears to belong to a specific school of magic that you choose. When you use this effect on an object, you can make the false magic apparent to any creature that handles the item.

Mask: You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.

Spell Lists: Wizard

False Magic. As "magical auras" aren't a particularly well-defined term, this seems to pretty much just relate to Detect Magic and letting mundane people see things as being magical (which may or may not be a bit of a shock to them, if it's unclear whether or not normal folks can usually tell if some things are magical or not). While curious, I'm mostly going to be ignoring this aspect of the spell, as I don't feel like doing the usual scam of selling bargain luckstones to people.


Mask. ...okay, so, right away the description of this effect contradicts the very first line of the spell's text. The examples given, Divine Sense and Symbol, are not Divination spells. So that means either it doesn't actually work, or we're dealing with some very bizarre "specific vs. general" ruling wherein the overall spell's description is the general rule (divination spells reveal false information), and this particular effect's description is the specific rule that overrides the general.

But even if we take that second reasoning, we're met with another conundrum. The beginning of the description says "You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types", which we can interpret as any sort of "Detect (X)" ability. Okay, fine, that's cool. And it's even backed up by the first example being the Paladin's Divine Sense ability, which is definitely a kind of detect (X).

...but the second example given is "the trigger of a Symbol spell", which is not a detect (X) ability, and simply "detects" creature types by having them be described in the text of the spell.

Spoiler: Trigger section of the Symbol spell (click to show/hide)

When you cast this spell, you inscribe a harmful glyph either on a surface (such as a section of floor, a wall, or a table) or within an object that can be closed to conceal the glyph (such as a book, a scroll, or a treasure chest). If you choose a surface, the glyph can cover an area of the surface no larger than 10 feet in diameter. If you choose an object, that object must remain in its place; if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.

The glyph is nearly invisible, requiring an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC to find it.

You decide what triggers the glyph when you cast the spell. For glyphs inscribed on a surface, the most typical triggers include touching or stepping on the glyph, removing another object covering it, approaching within a certain distance of it, or manipulating the object that holds it. For glyphs inscribed within an object, the most common triggers are opening the object, approaching within a certain distance of it, or seeing or reading the glyph.

You can further refine the trigger so the spell is activated only under certain circumstances or according to a creature's physical characteristics (such as height or weight), or physical kind (for example, the ward could be set to affect hags or shapechangers). You can also specify creatures that don't trigger the glyph, such as those who say a certain password.

This is... Mildly problematic, given that it means any fiend or undead who has access to someone who can cast this spell can, over the course of a month, become permanently immune to any Symbol or presumably also Magic Circle spells that target that type of creature. It becomes even more problematic since the term "magical effects" gets included, meaning we need to have that discussion all over again to decide if a Paladin's smite is considered magical, or an Oathbreaker's aura that grants +CHA to damage rolls for nearby friendly "fiends" and "undead".

...it becomes catastrophically problematic when you realize that spell targeting is described in a spell's body text. One could argue that "target" and "detect" are distinct classes in the descriptive language, with one being active and the other passive, but... The wording in some spell texts makes this a little blurry, and it basically just comes down to "common sense" fiat.

But if not, and we take the wording "You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment." at face value... Well gee. "Humanoid" is a creature type, and a buttload of spells target "humanoid" specifically. Change your type and never be affected by those spells again.

And this just gets increasingly stupid when you realize that the targeting text doesn't seem to distinguish between "creature" and "object", and the Mask effect specifically makes the target appear as a given creature type ("or alignment", but the effect text doesn't actually say anything about letting you change its perceived alignment. Which is weird). Think there's a magical trap somewhere? This rock is now a "humanoid", toss it into an area to see if it triggers on humanoids entering its zone.

...or we can crank the stupidity up even more, by virtue of the fact that there are no size restrictions given for a target object; only that it "isn't being carried or worn by another creature". Touch a really big rock. It's now a "beast". Awaken it or do whatever the hell else you'd like to do with a spell that specifically targets a beast/creature.

Interestingly, this can also let you do your very own Weekend at Bernie's cosplay by making a corpse (which is officially an object) be treated like a creature.


Do I think the spell should be run like that? God no, that's horrifying. But it makes it clear that this is one of those spells that really did not get many whacks with the sanity stick when it was written.



As an aside, Symbol: Death has the potential to deal 1,000d10 damage if you can get it to trigger in a way that the target(s) can't get out of the 60' radius sphere within 10 minutes. Save for half, of course.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 10, 2022, 11:04:48 am

Dumb thought.

Fantasy settings often have giant invertebrates, spiders and centipedes and ants and so on.

Does this mean that there are also giant version of the animals that eat them?

Specifically, does this mean a giant threadsnake could exist?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/97/4a/67/974a67e902ecc313deb59dcfa03fb886.jpg)

Imagine it, a giant, toothless blind serpent with no teeth that just wants to chow down on giant ant eggs and larva. It pays no heed to anything else, other than being scared of light, it just wants to slither around like a giant derpmonster eating giant bug eggs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 11, 2022, 04:34:02 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on June 10, 2022, 11:04:48 am

Specifically, does this mean a giant threadsnake could exist?

While I'm sure something like that could definitely find a niche in the ecosystem, I feel like predation by adventuring parties for the creation of huge novelty hats might drive the species to extinction... Which is why we're left with those beasts that develop more pointy means of defending themselves; such as the purple worms. :P


Something completely different that I'd never really even considered before... RAW, aside from some implied rules and special cases (blindsight, devil sight etc.), creatures affected by vision-blocking fields such as fog cloud, darkness, and wall of sand can attack each other normally. Without advantage or disadvantage.

This is because the attack rules state that you can attack a "creature, object or location" within the attack's range, but has no condition that you need to actually be able to see the given creature, object, or location. Indeed, there are even specific rules about attacking an opponent you can't see, which specifies that you have disadvantage on the attack roll made to attack such a target.

...but, then if you can't see an opponent that is making an attack roll against you, the opponent has advantage on the attack roll. Since advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out, two creatures that can't see each other will make normal attack rolls against one another, exactly the same rolls as if they could see each other normally.

I mentioned "implied rules", and that comes in the section for "Unseen Attackers and Targets":

Quote

When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

Emphasis mine.

So, the common sense interpretation is of course that you can't see an "unseen" opponent, and therefore can't know that it's there in order to target it with an attack (unless you "hear" it, which... again, isn't well-defined), so you have to guess at where they are and just try attacking where you think they might be. ...but, strictly speaking, this isn't actually outlined anywhere. I'm guessing this is another one of those things that got written while the AC was out.


In conclusion: The DMG index lists "Climax" right above "Climb onto a bigger creature", and I find that entertaining.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 11, 2022, 06:18:12 am

The Blind vs Blind thing is what makes Devil's Sight Warlocks with Darkness a strong combo. Casting Darkness has basically no downsides in combat for anyone but ranged characters, and a DS warlock gets advantage to hit and disadvantage to be hit.

It's actually rather trivial to build a whole party that can fight while blind, and therefore use lots of blinding area spells. The Warlock has Devil's Sight, which lets them see through just Darkness, and Fighter's have Blind Fighting for 10 feet of Blindsight which lets them see through any vision obscuring effect. Both can be taken by basically anyone for the trivial price of a 2 level dip in Warlock, a 1 level dip in Fighter, or a feat. So by level 4 a party can all be able to benefit from the effects of magical darkness with no penalties, and some of them may also be able to fight unimpeded by fog clouds, sandstorms and other similar spells/effects.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on June 11, 2022, 06:38:11 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on June 10, 2022, 11:04:48 am

Dumb thought.

Fantasy settings often have giant invertebrates, spiders and centipedes and ants and so on.

Does this mean that there are also giant version of the animals that eat them?

Specifically, does this mean a giant threadsnake could exist?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/97/4a/67/974a67e902ecc313deb59dcfa03fb886.jpg)

Imagine it, a giant, toothless blind serpent with no teeth that just wants to chow down on giant ant eggs and larva. It pays no heed to anything else, other than being scared of light, it just wants to slither around like a giant derpmonster eating giant bug eggs.

I've always liked the idea of giant earth worm/snake creatures that instead of being Dune- or Tremors-like arch-predators they're just whale-like, tranquil giant things that peacefully makes their way through the desert sustaining themselves of off something miniscule like sand plankton

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 11, 2022, 01:03:09 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on June 11, 2022, 06:18:12 am

The Blind vs Blind thing is what makes Devil's Sight Warlocks with Darkness a strong combo. Casting Darkness has basically no downsides in combat for anyone but ranged characters, and a DS warlock gets advantage to hit and disadvantage to be hit.

Well, yes and no... RAW, it also doesn't make any difference for archers, since they're apparently allowed to shoot at people they can't actually see so long as the target is within range. As long as it's a weapon attack, they're free to fire in and/or out of heavily obscuring effects as a neutral roll.

However, it is a major handicap for casters. A huge number of spells specify "a creature/point/target within range you can see", which then gets specifically blocked by anything that prevents vision. Including stuff like poison spray, which only has a 10' range.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on June 11, 2022, 02:58:01 pm

Quote from: scriver on June 11, 2022, 06:38:11 am

I've always liked the idea of giant earth worm/snake creatures that instead of being Dune- or Tremors-like arch-predators they're just whale-like, tranquil giant things that peacefully makes their way through the desert sustaining themselves of off something miniscule like sand plankton

And now I have the weird idea of a day/night migration done by tiny animals that live in the sand of a desert to avoid the worst extremes of temperature but still gather enough light and heat for various processes.

The desert sands changing colour in the morning and late evening as tiny creatures rise up to photosynthesize, then changing back to normal as they sink to avoid the midday sun and the overnight frost.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 17, 2022, 11:50:06 pm

https://twitter.com/MEdwardsVA/status/1463377542979764228

Quote

an "adversarial" DM? The DM is a manufacturer of adversaries, their director, but never an adversary themselves. To smother imagination out of a desire for stability is a crime but I ask you, bard, do you not share in this social contract? No, I will not let you have a katana

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 19, 2022, 09:18:17 am

Faerun... what could make Fae run

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on June 19, 2022, 10:29:28 am

Quote from: Novel on June 19, 2022, 09:18:17 am

Faerun... what could make Fae run

threat of cold iron enema

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Duuvian on June 19, 2022, 10:44:18 am

I was going to say cold iron golem but I couldn't recall if I had the name of the metal they are vulnerable to correct.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on June 19, 2022, 10:57:26 am

I had trouble remembering which is good against demons until I realized that it's the same as for fae.  So apparently cold iron is anathema to chaotic beings, whereas silver is good against devils for some reason.

Wait why are devils vulnerable to silver when they're literally fallen celestials...  Wait what are angels vulnerable to...?  (Evil-aligned weapons apparently, and devils are vulnerable to both Good and silver.  So something about the fall to evil made these celestials vulnerable to silver.)

This is all for 3.5

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 19, 2022, 12:14:35 pm

Quote from: Duuvian on June 19, 2022, 10:44:18 am

cold iron golem

This is almost catchy.

The silver thing is about associations of purity.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on June 19, 2022, 12:36:25 pm

Clearly devils are former angels infected by some kind of evil bacterial infection which may be cleansed by silver's anti-microbial properties.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Frumple on June 19, 2022, 12:52:19 pm

wait, does that mean celestials have blue skin due to silver overdose

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on June 20, 2022, 09:03:02 pm

Quote from: Frumple on June 19, 2022, 12:52:19 pm

wait, does that mean celestials have blue skin due to silver overdose

It's the only thing that makes sense.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on June 21, 2022, 04:11:08 am

Quote from: Iduno on June 20, 2022, 09:03:02 pm

Quote from: Frumple on June 19, 2022, 12:52:19 pm

wait, does that mean celestials have blue skin due to silver overdose

It's the only thing that makes sense.

"They don't call me Serenar Silvernose for nothing!"
^*snrrrrt*


Also, I knew that Star Druid's dragon form was kinda ridiculous, but I didn't realize just how ridiculous until something occurred to me just now.

In addition to the amazing concentration save boost, "any Wisdom or Intelligence check" that rolls 9 or lower counts as having rolled a 10. Seems mostly like RP/circumstantial benefit, but then it dawns on you that Dispel Magic calls for an ability check with your spellcasting modifier. ...which, as a Druid, is Wisdom.

A level 5 Stars druid with 20 WIS (achievable with Custom Lineage) can automatically dispel any magic cast at 5th level or lower, using a 3rd level slot. They don't even have 5th-level slots themselves. Even if you're not going all out with custom lineage tomfoolery, it's still easy to have an 18 at that point, meaning anything of 4th or lower is guaranteed gone.


The stars (hah) have aligned and you're playing a high-level game? Okay. Stars 2/Abjurer 10 can Dispel or Counterspell any magic cast at 9th level or lower, using a 3rd-level slot. Because it covers Intelligence checks too, which is what you'd be making if casting as a Wiz. Congratulations on ruining everything magic-related.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 03, 2022, 01:16:55 pm

Lmao that's a nice little find Kagus

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 03, 2022, 05:29:41 pm

I'm honestly a little upset with myself for putting that together, as I'm never going to play anything like that on account of it being too busted in an unfun "just say no to anything actually happening" way. But it's still rattling around in my head because it's just so stupid. I had to tell somebody.

And that's coming from someone who would absolutely play the "+9 to a save at level 2" build I've also been fiddling with.


As an aside, apparently it's official that activating the artificer's "spell-storing item" is specifically the "Use an Item" action. Meaning that Thieves can do it as a bonus action.

Because that's fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 03, 2022, 05:51:15 pm

worldbuilding-ish idea? A spacewarping dungeon with multiple entrances across the continent. Due to this and wide corridors suitable for driving a wagon through, it's sometimes used as fast travel by merchants and messengers in a hurry. But it does constantly shift its layout and refill with monsters which can reliably be dealt with by good enough adventurers but would pose trouble for most people. As such, if you want to get through you'll need to hire an escort to kill the monsters and find the way.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NullForceOmega on July 03, 2022, 06:14:39 pm

That's a pretty cool idea.  Could be interesting to see the economic impacts explored in detail.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 03, 2022, 06:42:41 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 03, 2022, 05:51:15 pm

worldbuilding-ish idea? A spacewarping dungeon with multiple entrances across the continent. Due to this and wide corridors suitable for driving a wagon through, it's sometimes used as fast travel by merchants and messengers in a hurry. But it does constantly shift its layout and refill with monsters which can reliably be dealt with by good enough adventurers but would pose trouble for most people. As such, if you want to get through you'll need to hire an escort to kill the monsters and find the way.

I like it. If the layout shifts drastically enough you could have a risk/reward thing with "sure, I might get trapped in a thousand miles long monster-filled corridor, but I also might be in Rome in a week if I'm lucky, and Bonaventura said her parents aren't home..." situations.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 04, 2022, 01:05:41 pm

Imagine how livid some faery prince would be if they found out you were using their sacred interdimensional grove as a shopping route

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 04, 2022, 01:51:51 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 04, 2022, 01:05:41 pm

Imagine how livid some faery prince would be if they found out you were using their sacred interdimensional grove as a shopping route

'Oh look, more prey has wandered into the hunting grounds. Fetch my horn, my spear and my hounds.'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 04, 2022, 01:59:25 pm

That's a good point. Fae bastard's probably the one who spread the rumours that you could use the interdimensional "dungeon" as a way to ship goods in the first place

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 04, 2022, 04:14:49 pm

The angle I would take on it for a grim fantasy take is that there are many gateways to the realms of the Fey, most of which lead to another gateway that opens into another part of the mortal world. Anyone and anything can pass through these gates provided they enter properly,* which take the form of things like standing stones, trees that have grown into an arch, the entrance to a burial mound, a windblown hole in a rock or an underwater grotto. Once you go in, you can't turn around, you have to reach the next gate to get back out.

The gates usually lead to the same place consistently, for hundreds of years at a time, resulting in them being used as an alternative to conventional roads if the locations that can be reached from either end are worth it. Sometimes they just stop working, break due to subsidence or forest fires, or suddenly lead to a different realm than before.

Different Fey lords have different realms, some are places of misty forests stalked by horned huntsmen accompanied by packs of spectral hounds, some are home to whirling wind and scraping sand, haunted by jackal headed monsters that gnaw on the bones of the lost, or steamy jungles run through with streams and the alluring song of women-faced spiders. Yet others are copies of mortal cities, filled with soulless changelings that seek to replace travellers as they pass through, or are gardens of pleasures that tempt travellers to stay forever among the fair folk.

Most of the time people who go in gates come back out, barring the odd person who falls prey to the slightly above average dangers within, but some gates are able to be safely traversed only by people with specific qualities, with anyone else being almost certain to die or be trapped forever. The Fey do not generally converse with mortals, at least not on any matter of substance, preferring to limit dialogue to petty insults, threats, banal trivialities or riddles, and deciphering their motives is entirely a matter of speculation.


*Not necessarily intentionally mind you.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 12, 2022, 05:21:33 pm

I'm thinking of canning my dark heresy campaign. So far everything had been going good, the one shots I did had gone superbly, but in the aftermath of some drama around a friend's campaign also being killed over drama, I am now being buried in drama contagion and I just want it all to stop

All I did was ask them to stop metagaming but it has since become something beyond my mere comprehension -_-

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 13, 2022, 08:32:48 am

Been ruminating on Darkest Dungeon lately, and how I'd like to use elements of it for a game.

Thinking primarily on the subject of Stress as an alternative to the Insanity, Corruption or Taint rules found in some other games. Thinking a D100 system as a base, probably drawing a lot on Dark Heresy. So stats from 1-100, usually between 30-50, and a HP amount of about 12-18.

Spoiler: Basic idea (click to show/hide)

Stress is tracked from 0-100, and is inflicted by damage, encounters with horrors mundane or supernatural in nature, poison, disease and other stressful situations.

Every character has a Stress Theshold of 50 plus half their Willpower stat (Willpower ranging from 25-50 or so.) When a character's Stress reaches their Stress Threshold they become Afflicted and begin suffering the effects of any Stress Flaws they have. If a character has no Stress Flaws they instead must roll a Willpower test, gaining a Stress Flaw if they fail. If a character's Stress reaches 100 they automatically gain a Stress Flaw.

Stress Flaws include a number of coping mechanisms or personality flaws. Kleptomania, Paranoia, Flagellation, Alcoholism and Gluttony for example. The following are not intended to be all encompassing, merely outlines of the sort of effects intended.

Kleptomaniacs obssessively steal small objects when above their Stress Threshold. When presented with the opportunity to secretly pocket a small item such as gemstones or jewelry Kleptomaniacs must make a Willpower test to resist the urge to do so. Items claimed by the Kleptomaniac in this fashion cannot be sold or given away later unless the Kleptomaniac is cured of their condition, they are now part of the character's own secret collection.

Paranoid characters distrust those around them, believing them to be conspiring to bring them to ruin. While above their Stress Threshold Paranoiacs must make Willpower tests to allow others to help them with magic or mundane aid, fearful of treachery. They must also make a Willpower test to not check that an item that has not been previously interacted with, such as a door or chest, is trapped, an endeavour that can take some time.

Flagellants are driven to scarify their own flesh to redeem themselves for their failings, through acts of self-harm such as flagellation or cutting. When a Flagellant is above their Stress Threshold they must immediately flagellate themselves, reducing their stress by 1d10 at the cost of 1 Wound. This action must be repeated until their stress falls below their Stress Threshold.

Alcoholics and Gluttons are similar in nature. In situations of stress they are driven to consume their vice to soothe their ravaged mind. While above their Stress Threshold they must test Willpower to resist consuming their vices when they are available. Alcoholics will consume alcoholic drinks until they reach the final stage of inebriation or run out of alcohol. Gluttons will consume almost any edible material, though with bonuses to resist consuming rancid food, or food that is not generally considered edible such as human meat. Both Alcoholics and Gluttons will consume poisoned or spoiled items if they fail their Willpower test, the pressures of their stressed mind overwhelming self preservation.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2022, 08:37:49 am

I've always renamed all insanity point systems to stress anyways, even if mechanically they were the exact same. For some reason calling it insanity points always made half of my players turn into Jared Leto whenever they saw a squid or a dead body whereas if you call it stress they understand perfectly that they are still to continue acting like a human being rather than an insulting caricature of mental illness

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Telgin on July 13, 2022, 12:08:51 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 12, 2022, 05:21:33 pm

I'm thinking of canning my dark heresy campaign. So far everything had been going good, the one shots I did had gone superbly, but in the aftermath of some drama around a friend's campaign also being killed over drama, I am now being buried in drama contagion and I just want it all to stop

All I did was ask them to stop metagaming but it has since become something beyond my mere comprehension -_-

This is one reason I hate GMing.  Most games I've run had a ton of drama and it takes all of the fun out of an already thankless job.

People as a whole are entirely too childish.

The other reason I hate GMing is because people lose interest in the other half of my games.

I think it's no coincidence that I've had more fun running a personal, solo Ironsworn: Starforged game than anything in recent memory.  There's no drama, and I don't have to worry about other people forgetting about it or neglecting it.

You could argue I might as well just be writing instead at that point, but I think I've always preferred that to running RPGs anyway.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 13, 2022, 03:42:14 pm

I'm a big fan of how stress dice works in Free League's Alien RPG. System uses pool of d6s, and stress dice are more d6s, which increase your chance of rolling a 6 (success) but a 1 on a stress dice causes you to panic. So stress makes you more likely to succeed at a skill, but also more likely for bad things to happen to you.

I feel the stress mechanic in Darkest dungeon would port decently well to that, but that's obviously not a d100 system.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 14, 2022, 03:18:26 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2022, 08:37:49 am

I've always renamed all insanity point systems to stress anyways, even if mechanically they were the exact same. For some reason calling it insanity points always made half of my players turn into Jared Leto whenever they saw a squid or a dead body whereas if you call it stress they understand perfectly that they are still to continue acting like a human being rather than an insulting caricature of mental illness

Yeah, I've felt this way about a number of "insanity" meters in games. Stress does a better, more logical job of describing it, even if you're not actively trying to RP it.

Shame about the Dark Heresy campaign by the by, drama is no fun at all... And it does like to have wide-reaching effects now doesn't it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 14, 2022, 11:15:23 am

Quote from: Kagus on July 14, 2022, 03:18:26 am

Shame about the Dark Heresy campaign by the by, drama is no fun at all... And it does like to have wide-reaching effects now doesn't it?

Yeah there is no containing it. Friendships shall be broken, games shall be shaken, ride to ruin, ride for Rohan, ride for the game that never ends! DEATH! DEAAAAAAAATH!!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmTz7EAYLrs)

Quote from: Telgin on July 13, 2022, 12:08:51 pm

This is one reason I hate GMing.  Most games I've run had a ton of drama and it takes all of the fun out of an already thankless job.

People as a whole are entirely too childish.

In my case it's just a communication/empathy problem

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 15, 2022, 12:26:01 am

My high-seas party has made their way to the Elemental Plane of Fire - for all of them, this is the first time they've felt dry air in 50 years, if not their whole life.

Any recommendations of silly fire things to encounter?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 15, 2022, 01:29:55 am

Quote from: delphonso on July 15, 2022, 12:26:01 am

My high-seas party has made their way to the Elemental Plane of Fire - for all of them, this is the first time they've felt dry air in 50 years, if not their whole life.

Any recommendations of silly fire things to encounter?

A fire barge; an enchanted vessel that rides atop the crests of dancing flames like a ship would sail the waves.

Even in the literal Elemental Plane of Fire, they still cannot escape boat.


If you really wanna get silly, I hear Efreet Eye for the Mortal Guy is on for a new season.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Tack on July 15, 2022, 02:54:44 am

Quote from: delphonso on July 15, 2022, 12:26:01 am

My high-seas party has made their way to the Elemental Plane of Fire - for all of them, this is the first time they've felt dry air in 50 years, if not their whole life.

Any recommendations of silly fire things to encounter?

Random boil-overs causing the ground to become lava, shift around for a few rounds, and then re-solidify?
I’ve got stormlight archives in my head, something like fireflies being a cute little critter you don’t think about and they’re actually multiplanar abominations which only show that specific part of them in the material plane.
-which makes a mating dance suddenly very confusing.

Also, hi all. I play D&D and pathfinder. I also make terrain

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 15, 2022, 03:46:33 am

There's already been heavy foreshadowing that they'll find a submarine on legs somewhere in this plane. Excellent idea it's riding on/in flames too.

Love the idea of shuffling terrain! We've got two tanks and two glass cannons, so that'll certainly //heat things up//

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 15, 2022, 04:44:12 am

Quote from: Tack on July 15, 2022, 02:54:44 am

Also, hi all. I play D&D and pathfinder. I also make terrain

Greetings greetings

Quote from: delphonso on July 15, 2022, 12:26:01 am

My high-seas party has made their way to the Elemental Plane of Fire - for all of them, this is the first time they've felt dry air in 50 years, if not their whole life.

Any recommendations of silly fire things to encounter?

The salamancer (pyromancer who is a lizard wizard about the size of your palm)
Bar that only serves flaming shots
Legal team searching for prometheus to cut down on copyright infringement
Incense sellers & BBQ joints
Spontaneously combusting eucalyptus tree seller trying to convince others to bring the tree's seeds into other planes
The remains of a gunpowder manufactory
Dried fruit/meat seller

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 15, 2022, 09:02:50 am

That bit of Tattoine lore where a glass of unaltered water is the most prestigious drink.

In fact, maybe the locals have to harvest water from a local cactus-like creature... which is more like a cactaur, mobile and very dangerous for a simple "plant".  Perhaps it has developed some natural cleric spell-like-abilities which is how it accumulates its water, and also drops Obscuring Mist while fleeing.  If cornered it uses its spines.

This could be a natural exception like how the air plane has floating islands and the earth plane has breathable caves, but I like to think it's the machination of a deity who has an interest in the local civilization.  To what end, though?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 16, 2022, 10:30:17 am

...huh.

Okay, how would y'all consider the interaction between Life Transference (take 4d8 damage, one creature of your choice gains healing worth double the damage you take) and a Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance (when are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead)?


Half-Orc Healer (HOH) has 1/33 hitpoints (so can't be killed outright from casting the spell), casts Life Transference (LT) on Party Member (PM).

Scenario 1:
HOH rolls 18 on the dice, takes 18 damage reducing them to "-17/33", whereupon they use Relentless Endurance (RE) to remain with 1 HP. PM receives 36 healing.

Scenario 2:
HOH rolls 18 on the dice, but can only take 1 HP damage due to only having 1 left, reducing them to 0/33. They use RE to return to 1 HP. PM receives 2 healing.

Scenario 3: HOH rolls 18, but damage taken can only be the difference between hitpoints before and hitpoints after a given effect. Since HOH uses RE to "instead drop to 1 hitpoint", they have 1HP both before and after casting, so damage taken is 0. PM receives 0 healing.


Or would you take some other ruling entirely?

Personally, I feel like the combination is such a curious little interaction on a sub-optimal build with a heavy resource cost for a not-overwhelming result, so I'd be tempted to lean towards Scenario 1 just to have it pay off a little. But I'm not really sure what the RAW actually says on the matter.


And that doesn't even get into the question of whether Life domain's "When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher that restores hit points to a creature other than you, you regain hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level" feature gives you healing before taking the damage or after... Or possibly even during, providing a de facto reduction of the damage despite not being able to say that it's reducing the damage, because the damage "can't be reduced in any way".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on July 16, 2022, 10:35:17 am

I'd give them Scenario 1. As you pointed out, it's a heap of resources for a cool, cinematic moment in a fight.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Sirus on July 16, 2022, 10:36:55 am

More fire plane ideas:

Extremely spicy peppers that deal damage when consumed (CON save reduces) but allow the consumer to breathe fire as an attack. Probably not much use in the Plane of Fire but the peppers can be brought back to the party's normal world.
A settlement of friendly fire elementals set up as a tourist attraction: gambling, trading, taverns with performances, all that stuff.
A very miserable white dragon who will do just about anything for a ticket off the plane.
The remnants of an old crusade who thought they were marching into the Infernal planes but took the wrong portal. As they were expecting fire and brimstone anyway, they've been marching around for years smashing up everything they can find.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 16, 2022, 10:48:10 am

Quote from: Kagus on July 16, 2022, 10:30:17 am

...huh.

Okay, how would y'all consider the interaction between Life Transference (take 4d8 damage, one creature of your choice gains healing worth double the damage you take) and a Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance (when are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead)?

Oof, I might have to be a sourpuss about this.  Putting aside RAW and rule of cool, I feel like it breaks "my immersions" unnecessarily.  How can someone donate their vital energy when they have none to spare?

I could see it going either way, but I'd rather it not be a reliable mechanic.  I'd sorta want it to have consequences.  The details would need to be negotiated with the player though.

Like, 5th editions rules for hitting 0 hit points are conducive to conserving player characters (in a good way), but anything that highlights the ridiculousness of the edge cases bothers me.  I see the bonus-action Healing Word (IIRC) in a similar way.  The game is designed around abusing it, and I absolutely did as a player, yet it's kinda... gross.  To me.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 16, 2022, 03:15:38 pm

RAW I'd have to go #2 or #3 because 5e definitely does not have negative hitpoints. If you take more damage than you have HP, you go to 0.

However, fudging shit to make the players be cool badasses who do awesome shit is a proud tradition, so feel free to give them awesome heals. Consider saying that it results in some kinda degeneration over time though, both for balance and because... it sounds pretty bad flavor wise.

Characters do have life force to spare besides HP, of course. It's called death checks, hit dice, exhaustion, and even spell slots. Getting to do the big life transfer and stay standing at the cost of a death check might actually be kinda interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 16, 2022, 03:36:49 pm

Scenario #2 is legally the one that would play out if you go by the book. No negative HP so you don't take any more damage than 1, so it gives 2 hp, since life transference is based on the damage taken and not the damage rolled. If we're by an in-universe thing, then death saving throws represent losing what's left of your life essence. So giving HP based on the damage rolled should be fine; half-orcs have a lot of life to give. Just be mindful that DnD characters are already nigh impossible to kill as is, and this would add yet more tools to make chars unkillable

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 17, 2022, 02:26:52 am

The Half-Orc's ability happens at 0 hp, so even if 5e did have negative hit points it wouldn't be mechanically legal. Sorry Kagus :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 17, 2022, 03:56:48 am

The thing is, while 5e doesn't have negative hitpoints in the sense of previous editions, it does still track damage beyond "reduced to 0", for the sake of calculating instant death.

Quote

[...] For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.

The wording here is a bit confusing. It does say that she "takes 18 damage", but then once she's been reduced to 0 it says that "12 damage remains". I don't believe there's an official definition anywhere clarifying whether damage "taken" is "amount of damage to be applied to hit points", or "hit points - (damage)".

There's also the matter of "Taking damage while you have 0 hit points", which results in death saves. The wording still states that you're "Taking damage", despite not having any hit points to damage anymore. I guess you're just taking "0" damage? Which is... Fine, but sounds weird. And again, "If the damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum, you suffer instant death". This doesn't specifically say "Damage taken", so it seems like it's just referring to the number in a vacuum.


Actually, hang on... There is kind of a definition of damage taken, right on the page before. "When a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points". Which... Doesn't clear things up a great deal, as that could potentially be read as either sequential or simultaneous.

Additionally, there's... ugh... A tweet from Crawford stating that (in the context of barbarians and rage) "Taking 0 damage is the same as taking no damage." (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/859637863188713472)

By that logic, if you're at 0 hit points, even though you have no more hit points to damage, damage "taken" still retains its numerical value. Otherwise you could never trigger death saves from damage while downed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 17, 2022, 04:37:43 am

But even if negative hit points exist, the half-orc doesn't get any. Because when they hit 0 hp, they bounce back up to 1.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on July 17, 2022, 07:49:54 am

Scenario 1 sounds like the most fun scenario for everyone involved and its a super niche interaction that uses up resources including leaving the party healer a sneeze away from going down and having used their 1/day not yet unconscious ability. "The half-orc's body noticeably withers as their life energy leaves them to flow into their ailing ally. Gritting their teeth in immense pain, our half-orc hero wills themself to stay conscious to protect their ally, knowing that one more hit will knock them out of the fight."

I think there's rules logic to support it given that the half-orc is taking the damage, they just don't have the hit points to reduce by the amount they take. Relentless Endurance is an ability you choose to use and checks if you're just flat out dead first (which you could do with Life Transference, its a niche situation but we're already in one), so I see it as you take the damage, but before the consequences kick in, Relentless Endurance is used if it applies. I wouldn't begrudge anyone who ruled differently from me though, Situation 1 is just the result that makes the most sense to me rulewise and makes the most interesting story.

Concentration and Relentless Endurance is a similar situation. If a half-orc gets hit with a 25 damage fireball while at 1 HP and concentrating on spell, and they choose to use Relentless Endurance, would you rule that they have to make a Concentration check? If yes, would it be DC 10 or DC 12? I'd definitely rule yes at DC 12 for the same reason I chose situation 1. But if you pick situation 3 in the above scenario and you don't rule no on concentration you're being inconsistent.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on July 24, 2022, 11:19:03 am

Back in the 70's and 80's, when you could get away with making a similar product to someone else, as long as you did it differently, and small teams could just build a business without millions of dollars, D&D was created, and then had competitors who tried to improve on it in some way. Does anyone have any favorite D&D-based TTRPGs?

I'm familiar with Tunnels and Trolls which tried to go for simpler rules, less serious game (D&D was still based on wargaming at that point), and only use d6s.
I've heard of RoleMaster the d100 game, which then had Call of Cthulu spring off from it.
I've also very much enjoyed reading on Earthdawn, where they wanted everything in the game mechanics and the world to fit together nicely, and get rid of clerics who were necessary for a party but not as fun to play. Ambitious and weird, but it works. It's also why [AD&D] 3rd edition was so much different from 2nd.

I am sure there are others as well, and what are your experiences?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 27, 2022, 03:14:20 pm

Cautiously optimistic that I'm finally going to get a game of VtM off the ground.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 28, 2022, 04:39:08 pm

I wish you all the fun. I've just been burning all my games to the ground. NONE OF THEM. NONE OF MY PLAYERS ARE FREE FROM SIN. Except one; who is a model player in every respect. The rest...

Spoiler: RAGE (click to show/hide)

The rest have many problems. One is a consumate redditor, with all the problem mindsets that comes with. Doing things like trying to "win" TTRPGs so they can brag about how they broke the game later on reddit. One of my DM friends killed his campaign after he realised the redditor was bragging about destroying his campaign on reddit, treating it like player vs DM and not a collaborative event. They view everything through reddit eyes, and try to fit everything to DnD or stale memes. I had never been railroaded by a player before but I was treated to this rare debacle after they thought my inquisitor was acting unrealistic because they didn't behave like a TTS meme and my tech priests didn't behave like DnD wizards (exact wording) and got mad after I asked them repeatedly to come into this game with no assumptions or prior knowledge so that everyone could get the same frame of reference. This is on the back of yet more drama where the same player convinced two of my other friends that I was trying to destroy their campaign by playing an evil overpowered necromancer. I RP'd as a blues clues kid with a kill count of 0; to cut an incredibly long story full of hipocrisy and stupidity short, after months of silence as to why I had been kicked (kicked from a game they invited me back to after I had left amicably, and after I had taken annual leave to join them only for them to show me up by accident), I got three different accounts from each of them, each of them blaming the other two, even though I wasn't looking for anyone to blame I just wanted to know wtf was going on. And when prodded, the player whose character exterminated the afterlife said the other guy kicked me for being too powerful in game, and the player whose character had harvested a million souls (no exaggeration) and got defensive when others questioned why he harvested the soul of a child said the other guy thought my character was too evil. I had resurrected three corpses - of men they had gleefully killed, healed the arm of another man they had assaulted, and used the wish spell to break people out of a concentration camp the rest of the party was supporting at the cost of his own life (being a necromancer he got better. But he could still never cast wish again). Followed by months of talking about me behind my back instead of a single one of them just talking to me. So after I discover what the hell had happened behind the scenes, I start asking them all one by one what the hell had happened, and why none of them had just done the simple thing and just talked to me. I even asked one of them like if you thought my char was too powerful why didn't you just ask I reroll a char? Why did he believe so quickly that I was a powergamer set out to destroy the campaign when of the 7 characters I had played with them, 5 of them had no player levels and were just NPCs, compared to a straight bard and a combat god sorcerer-warlock paladin he had rolled. He said idk lol

This friend I much appreciated because his response was just to acknowledge that he just went with the flow and didn't think to talk to me or just ask basic questions or such. But it is still frustrating how much grief they had caused me by acting so, when all of them who I trust implicitly in turn showed no trust of me and so willingly caused me harm that was so avoidable. Yet they apologised profusely and promised to speak with me frankly and directly, which was the nicest thing he could have pledged, and I am much grateful for it. Yet the reddit browsing one made no such rapproachment and to the end continued to make references about conversations they had had behind my back, e.g. "maybe they were right about you." The sheer disrespect of talking behind my back to my face after I complain about the disrespect of talking behind my back convinced me to kill my campaign outright. Even mulling killing our friendship altogether; I will try to speak to them one more time as they have not contacted me since, but I can only build so many bridges to a man with a torch.

The third one is a great player to have... If I could have them. Instead they commit yet more diverse and brilliant sins, such as promising to make a character to join my campaign, stringing me along with weeks of "ah I need help with this chargen" only to blank me when I ask what they need help with, and when the day rolls around to game - after three days of ignoring my calls, announcing that they had decided to cancel on me but just weren't going to say. This guy is someone I would give up my left arm to save, but he has the worst communciation skills in the world. When I asked him about his terrible communication skills he said the legendary line "I couldn't not possibly be any clearer than I am currently, wouldn't you not agree?" I WAS FUCKING SHOOK like god damn man there is no way you can be doing that naturally that's a triple negative. You have to rehearse that level of civil service speak. Currently on the verge of giving up on him because although he was amazing in the last one shot, trying to get him to make new characters is painful. He asks to do really specific characters like a penitent engine pilot that's lost its penitent engine, and I have no idea who keeps telling him to make these characters because he doesn't know what a penitent engine is. When I give him lots of suggestions and ask what he wants to play, he gives me politician responses like "oh just whatever fits your setting." MY GUY I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY YOU WANT TO PLAY A REPENTENT MECH PILOT. If you WANT to PILOT A MECH I CAN DO THAT, but do YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU WANT? TALK TO ME FFS. But actually getting to talk to him about any of this is impossible because of real world scheduling, and the fact that he returns none of my calls or messages until he decides to send me some lore about barber shops 2 weeks after I asked what help he needed.

The last one is genuinely a precious gem in this world and I treasure them for being god's gift to TTRPGs. They call ahead if they need to cancel or don't feel like gaming. I'm of the opinion that you don't need a reason to cancel; if you just feel down that day, don't force yourself to play. Real people matter more than games schedules. But one of them won't tell me when they cancel because they're worried it will offend me. It won't! It offends me that they think it would, it offends me that they cancelled but didn't tell me would cancel. Lord I need to vent. I speak in plain, simple English. But some of them I can't ever reach, and when I do reach them, they keep trying to read my mood or sentiment instead of just taking my words at their very obvious face value. Not this treasured gem player; he takes me at face value, and if he has a problem with me, he criticises me openly and we resolve it the very same minute. He rp's like an actor and reads rulebooks, he makes decisions quickly and his characters are actually characters instead of self-inserts or avatars of dice rolling and phone scrolling. He's the only one I've seen put in effort to match the effort I've put in. If I ask him not to metagame in this particular game he just says "yeah sure" and doesn't. Because it is not a big deal.

I'm not sure I can salvage this. Multiple trainwrecks piling upon one another from multiple GMs and DMs campaigns failing because the white players won't stop talking behind peoples' backs instead of just addressing reasonable criticism up front. I warned my DM friend that he was playing with fire and people were going to get hurt IRL. Two weeks later I was disappointed to hear him saying I was right and he wished he had listened earlier :/
Honestly I have the patience of a saint but I can't keep putting up with this and hearing them complain about me when they have consistently fucked me over for no reason.

There is so much more to these stories, even more reasons I have to be angry, but if I typed them all it would be too long. Maybe if people want to know more I will type, as is, I think I will just post what I was planning for the Dark Heresy campaign I killed. The gang were tasked by an Ordo Xenos inquisitor with killing two Tau ayyy lmaos, one being an ethereal and one being a fire warrior commander. The Tau presence on the planet they were on was minimal, numbering only around 500, but they were indirectly pressuring the Planetary-Governor Elect to submit to the Tau Empire peacefully. The thing which killed the campaign was that instead of doing their job or questioning why they should have to kill some aliens who seemed perfectly friendly, their feral-world character was arguing that they should be instigating regime change by depriving the populace of the economic goods they desire to forment a revolt. Being a metagamer, they assumed that they knew what the inquisitor wanted, and that what the inquisitor wanted was what I wanted. So they assumed I wanted them to exterminate all aliens and instigate regime change for the Imperium, even though the inquisitor was a radical who worked with xenos and whose agenda was actually to avoid a Tau-Imperial war that would divert resources away from combatting hive fleet jormungandr. Whether they ultimately assassinated the xenos commanders or worked with them would lead to different outcomes, naturally, but if they took too long then things would progress very differently. (As an aside - if they wanted to play mastermind schemer who worked indirectly through politics and subterfuge, that would have been fine. But they indicated no such thing when we worked together to make a feral world character!!! D:<)

They had just brushed into contact with acolytes working for an Ordo Hereticus radical, who believed that psykers were the natural development of humanity. They were also a serious crime lord with a tight control on that sector's illicit drug production, including heretical drugs like spook which awakened psychic potential in their users. Manufacturing and distributing spook is something which even an inquisitor would have a hard time getting away with without being branded a heretic or a threat to the imperium, but that is exactly what this chap was doing. And he would instigate a mass psychic-awakening on this planet at a certain date, which the ordo xenos inquisitor would notice, as the xenos inquisitor was herself a potent telepath. Depending on how things would play out, there'd be a good chance that the ordo hereticus inqusitor would bite off more than he could chew and the psychic phenomena unleashed on the planet would spiral out of control, leading to a race to either control the rogue psykers or find the evidence behind the suspicious mass awakening.

Btw how are the VtM rules? I'm thinking of giving them a try. However, with carefully picked players. I seem to be getting the worst luck with players, whether in vidya or ttrpgs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 28, 2022, 05:15:43 pm

H-... How do you lose your penitent engine?

"It's true... For my heinous crimes against humanity, I have been sentenced to live out the rest of my days in this gibbet."

"...what gibbet?"

"Oh, I forgot it at home."


And ah yes, the intricate multi-layered scheming of feral worlders... I believe Machiavelli himself was one!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on July 28, 2022, 05:17:42 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 28, 2022, 04:39:08 pm

Btw how are the VtM rules? I'm thinking of giving them a try. However, with carefully picked players.

Ooh ooh pick me pick me! :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 28, 2022, 05:24:35 pm

Actually, that seems like kind of a fun concept in a way. Someone so colossally absent-minded that they manage to misplace things which shouldn't physically be capable of being misplaced.

They're not expert escape artists or cunning spellbreakers, they're just... A living, breathing, bag of unholding.


The kind of person who has a cursed item irreparably bind to them and they accidentally leave it behind on the table at some inn.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on July 28, 2022, 06:43:03 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 28, 2022, 04:39:08 pm

Btw how are the VtM rules? I'm thinking of giving them a try. However, with carefully picked players. I seem to be getting the worst luck with players, whether in vidya or ttrpgs.

Different is the best way I can describe them. Haven't had a chance to properly play it in years, and this is a different version of the WoD rules than I have played with before, so I'm going to be making a bunch of vampire/ghoul/mortal NPCs using the PC creation rules to get back to grips with it.

Lots of mechanics to do with not being entirely in control of the characters, and accompanying mechanics to encourage players to go with the flow of their inner beast from time to time.

It's very much a game about playing psychologically damaged people with super powers and a vulnerability to addiction.


Sorry to hear about your troubles with games by the way. I've been lucky to not have to deal with drama in any of the groups I've been in, just scheduling problems.

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 28, 2022, 05:17:42 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on July 28, 2022, 04:39:08 pm

Btw how are the VtM rules? I'm thinking of giving them a try. However, with carefully picked players.

Ooh ooh pick me pick me! :D

TBH there's probably enough RPers on the forum that we could try to arrange a group and run games using Discord.



If anyone's interested I did three pitches to my group for VtM games and had them vote.

Pitch 1 was a game set in the Great Heathen Army invasion of the British Isles. They would be vampires allied to the Norse, specifically Bjorn Ironside, helping invade Northumbria to avenge the death of Ragnarr Lodbrok, helping to fight the native mortals, vampires and werewolves and plunder the lands for their own purposes.

Pitch 2 was them being Byzantine vampires in the lead up to the Fall of Constantinople, facing the approach of the Ottoman army and the vampires of the Ashirra (Muslim vampire organisation essentially, as opposed to the more Christian Camarilla.) Idea was more of a focus on politics, looking for ways to assure their own survival and the safety of their assets and freedoms in the event the city falls, but without looking like traitors in the event that the city doesn't fall.

Pitch 3, the winning one, was them being underlings to a freshly returned openly vampiric Dracula.* Full kingdom of evil, open war with mortals rather than hiding as was the norm for the time. Initial enemy being the Ottomans, as they were Vlad's enemy at the time he died with the Holy Roman Empire being tentative allies. As things progress though the Inquisition, Camarilla, Ashirra, rogue vampires, other supernatural beings are all going to show up to try and quash this flagrant breach of the normal status quo, and the PCs are going to be tasked with convincing the HRE to maintain prior friendship with Wallachia as a buffer state against the Ottomans.

My brother is the only person who's shared a PC idea with me so far, he's thinking of being an Ottoman assassin who was sent to Wallachia to kill Vlad, who went and died in battle before he got a chance to try, and then jumped ship when Vlad strode back into Wallachia as a freaking vampire and claimed the throne from his cousin. Summed it up as him going 'Well the devil is real, hail Satan I guess,' and swearing loyalty to the returned Dracula.



*Canon WoD Dracula has two versions, the Old WoD and the New WoD versions. The game is in the OWoD, but Dracula's canon for the OWoD isn't of use to me, so I threw it away and decided to go with a version inspired by various pop-culture versions of him. Going to give him the powers and weaknesses of Bram Stoker's Dracula, which among other things means he doesn't die in sunlight, which is a power no other vampire has. In a way it's a power even Caine, the first vampire, does not possess, as while he cannot die the sun still causes him great pain. Dracula in the campaign is going to be something new, something scary.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on July 28, 2022, 08:55:40 pm

X the Y-ening always seemed like a session 0 exposition vomit in order for the players to understand the 10 or so factions, why they all hate each other yet not hate enough to not form a rag-tag player party, all before the players can even start about character gen or whatever.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on July 29, 2022, 02:05:33 am

Quote from: MrRoboto75 on July 28, 2022, 08:55:40 pm

X the Y-ening always seemed like a session 0 exposition vomit in order for the players to understand the 10 or so factions, why they all hate each other yet not hate enough to not form a rag-tag player party, all before the players can even start about character gen or whatever.

[laughs in Legend of the Five Rings]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on July 29, 2022, 02:08:04 am

I'm interested, and I've played NWoD, but they fucked the versions so hard that I don't know what that means.  It's certainly not Old World of Darkness, nor the latter thing I don't understand.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on July 29, 2022, 02:36:47 am

Last time we got a WoD game going it was me who ruined it by pulling out in the last second -- being too shy to play with strangers on the Internet (I'm one of those weirdos who thinks it's more difficult to talk with people over line as opposed to in person. Not being able to read people makes me nervous) -- so I'm a little bit embarrassed to say it in light of that but I too would be interested. I've since started playing online regularly during covid so that is is something I've overcome since then, at least I can say that ;)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MCreeper on July 29, 2022, 03:46:43 am

Huh. Well, if fellow Bay12'ers intend to play some VtM right around there, then i'm tempted to try join in. Although i would be far from the great player, as it would be my first RP expirience at all. [pet peeve on]Just, pretty please, make it immidiately clear how many players there are or can be. My previous attempt to join a game failed in a stupid way because GM posted discord link on a forum right away, and everyone went straight through it, not bothering to say that they are in on a forum.[pet peeve off]
FAKEEDIT: Ah, most impotant thing - text or voice? Because i don't have a working mic at all.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 07, 2022, 04:01:17 pm

Would people still be interested in trying to arrange a game with forum members?

Personally have an idea for a Black Crusade (40k chaos rpg) game I've really been wanting to run.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 07, 2022, 04:15:09 pm

What format? Lotta people dislike the slowness of play by post but I think that the alternative of trying to find meetup times for a bunch of internet randos is even worse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MCreeper on August 08, 2022, 08:34:16 am

Nah, warhammer is not my cup of tea.  :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 08, 2022, 09:10:29 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on August 07, 2022, 04:15:09 pm

What format? Lotta people dislike the slowness of play by post but I think that the alternative of trying to find meetup times for a bunch of internet randos is even worse.

My preference is for voice calls. I've tried play by post in the past and found it sufficiently less enjoyable that I prefer the hassle of scheduling calls.

My current rl group mostly meets via voice calls these days. Used to be that the four of us who live in town would meet in person and the GM would call in from Canada, but we started shifting to Discord and Roll20, partly for the pandemic and now also because two of us have moved to another town.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 08, 2022, 11:01:44 am

PTF.

FWIW, I am an experienced 5e DnD player, and have  dabbled with pathfinder.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2022, 09:16:59 am

Quote from: Kagus on July 28, 2022, 05:15:43 pm

H-... How do you lose your penitent engine?

"It's true... For my heinous crimes against humanity, I have been sentenced to live out the rest of my days in this gibbet."

"...what gibbet?"

"Oh, I forgot it at home."

He's got a serious talent for it. He's in the past played an airship captain who lost his ship, a paladin sworn to no oath, he wanted to play a rogue trader captain who had no ship, penitent engine pilot with no engine, and most recently suggested playing the mother of a martyred sister repentia - even though the sisters of battle almost recruit exclusively from the schola progenium, who are orphans. He plays captains with no ships, mothers with no daughters, orphans with mothers, clerics with no gods, paladins with no code, and I swear next one'll be a CEO with no company. He's addicted to the subversion

Quote from: Kagus on July 28, 2022, 05:15:43 pm

And ah yes, the intricate multi-layered scheming of feral worlders... I believe Machiavelli himself was one!

To be fair there is a fair bit of room for scheming feral worlders; the first character they met was the King's eunuch who was a sneaky breeki kinda politics type guy. But there's different flavours of multi-layered scheming you know? There's "go Perseus, go forth and bring us the medusa's head" and "welcome to this episode of the CIA destabilises a nation for drug money again"

Quote from: Egan_BW on July 28, 2022, 05:17:42 pm

Ooh ooh pick me pick me! :D

If I ever get around to it, I'll defo post a link here as a call to arms. But I'm not going to be doing anything of the sort for at least the next month, as I'll be travelling around a lot :<

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 28, 2022, 06:43:03 pm

Lots of mechanics to do with not being entirely in control of the characters, and accompanying mechanics to encourage players to go with the flow of their inner beast from time to time.

It's very much a game about playing psychologically damaged people with super powers and a vulnerability to addiction.

Well now I have to give it a look. I liked the rules for Mage: The Wizardening so I am optimisting about Vampire: The Secret Gothening

Quote from: Grim Portent on July 28, 2022, 06:43:03 pm

Pitch 2 was them being Byzantine vampires in the lead up to the Fall of Constantinople, facing the approach of the Ottoman army and the vampires of the Ashirra (Muslim vampire organisation essentially, as opposed to the more Christian Camarilla.) Idea was more of a focus on politics, looking for ways to assure their own survival and the safety of their assets and freedoms in the event the city falls, but without looking like traitors in the event that the city doesn't fall.

Secret ending B: Turkic Vampire and Byzantine Vampire continue their 1,000 year war from their neighbouring apartments in Germany

In completely unrelated news

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/wZEedej.jpeg)

I am yet to try LOTFR or booty shorts

Spoiler: and I've been wasting time making equipment charts (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/VknwZri.png)

Ideally I should be going battlemaster with dual wielder but instead I've gone cavalier with polearm master & mounted combatant. Battlemaster can use all of this equipment very well, has special tactics related to drawing and throwing weapons as part of the same action, and a whole bunch of other nice stuff. It even has its own version of cavalier marking. But I am playing with a player who detests when another char is useful in all situations, so I'm going to stick to one that kills goblins but runs away from skeleton pikemen, so he can deal with the skeletons for me. After my friend asked me to find him a system that;

-featured magical things rarely
-had more player mortality/risk, but not "punishingly" so
-started off the chars as weak, scaling them up to great power, but stopping just short of mythic martial prowess
-similar enough to DnD that it is not a far departure from what he and his players are familiar with (d20 system, same attribute system & class system)
-different enough to DnD that it does not suffer from the usual issues surrounding spell lists, HP bloat, non-combat RP support, (no spellcaster classes or restricted)

In short he wanted DnD... But not DnD
And I seem to have actually found one called Low Fantasy Gaming, which as the name suggests, is all about Low Fantasy Gaming. I've yet to see it in try or try it myself but this >very specific niche< has apparently been filled

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 09, 2022, 11:15:23 am

Stealth Transport Helicopter: D&D Edition

Genielock, pact of the chain. Imp familiar.

Genielock communicates the plan to their familiar, then jumps inside their vessel for up to proficiency bonus x 2 hours.

Familiar executes plan by changing into a raven (60ft fly speed), grabbing the vessel (which is classed as a tiny object), and turning invisible as an at-will action. This includes any equipment it's wearing or holding, but it's up to speculation as to whether or not your vessel counts as "equipment".

You can now fly, invisibly, for a minimum of 4 hours. You can even hear the space outside the vessel, so the imp can tell you when you've reached your destination. Don't even need to worry about fall damage, as if you're dropped the vessel just breaks and you're popped out onto the ground next to where it hit.

At level 10, you can now invite up to 5 willing creatures within 30' to join you inside the vessel when you enter it. Invisible helicopter ride for the whole party. And you should be able to reach some fun places in the 8 hours of "gas" at that level.

Extra: You can eject anyone from the vessel as a bonus action at any point during their time inside the vessel. The vessel does not need to be safely located on the ground for you to do this.


As an aside... L5R looks like a cool game with some nice concepts and fantastic background fluff that needs a degree just to build a character and have it interact with the world properly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2022, 11:20:24 am

I had a warlock-sorcerer player do the tactical imp-conveyor lamp. Kept trying to get everyone to jump into his lamp but half the party refused to get in the lamp. Including my centaur character. So after some very clumsy climbing up the wall, we split into two groups. The warlock and I would stay behind as we were too noisy, whilst the other two stealthy boys would sneak on ahead to scout the mansion, filled with zombies as it was. Everything was going perfectly until the warlock got bored and decided to go check on the other two, failing his stealth roll and alerting all the undead - and the beholder, that there were intruders on the top floor. Ended up gettiny my character killed, in what was one of the most enjoyable deaths possible - disintegrated in one shot after heroically charging the beholder head on, stabbing it in the eye with my char-god's banner, saving the paladin player from certain death (after the paladin player had placed himself into certain death by front flipping into the zombie horde). A completely unnecessary heroic sacricice, but a heroic sacrifice nonetheless ;]

Then they resurrected my char ;[

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 11:53:52 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2022, 11:20:24 am

Then they resurrected my char ;[

Ressurection is one of my pet peeves with D&D. It undercuts basically all the possible drama that comes from what should be an important moment.

If a character dies, be it a heroic death, a tragic one or even a stupid one, it should generally be permanent or only able to be undone at great cost.

I'd much rather my character just be dead than rezzed, unless bringing them back is going to leave a permanent mark of some kind.


Really the only 'resurrection' mechanic I think I've ever liked is cyber-resurrection from Dark Heresy. You take a recently dead or nearly dead character, and fill them with cybernetics to get them back on their feet, at the cost of severe damage to their mind and humanity. It basically turns you into a bionic zombie, and for some characters is a fate worse than death.

I'd actually like it if D&D treated proper resurrection magic as much harder to do, instead making the readily available option be necromancy. Your character dies and gets the option of being brought back as an undead with their previous class levels intact kind of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on August 09, 2022, 12:18:19 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 07, 2022, 04:01:17 pm

Would people still be interested in trying to arrange a game with forum members?

Personally have an idea for a Black Crusade (40k chaos rpg) game I've really been wanting to run.

Unfortunately, the chaos 40k is probably the one I'm not particularly interested in playing, personally. I don't really have an idea of BC games goes though. But I'd be worried of it being too "edge for the edgy throne" if you know what I mean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Iduno on August 09, 2022, 12:55:55 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2022, 09:16:59 am

-featured magical things rarely
-had more player mortality/risk, but not "punishingly" so
-started off the chars as weak, scaling them up to great power, but stopping just short of mythic martial prowess
-similar enough to DnD that it is not a far departure from what he and his players are familiar with (d20 system, same attribute system & class system)
-different enough to DnD that it does not suffer from the usual issues surrounding spell lists, HP bloat, non-combat RP support, (no spellcaster classes or restricted)

In short he wanted DnD... But not DnD
And I seem to have actually found one called Low Fantasy Gaming, which as the name suggests, is all about Low Fantasy Gaming. I've yet to see it in try or try it myself but this >very specific niche< has apparently been filled

That is the largest niche that exists among people looking for a game that isn't D&D.

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 11:53:52 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on August 09, 2022, 11:20:24 am

Then they resurrected my char ;[

Ressurection is one of my pet peeves with D&D. It undercuts basically all the possible drama that comes from what should be an important moment.

If a character dies, be it a heroic death, a tragic one or even a stupid one, it should generally be permanent or only able to be undone at great cost.

I'd much rather my character just be dead than rezzed, unless bringing them back is going to leave a permanent mark of some kind.


Really the only 'resurrection' mechanic I think I've ever liked is cyber-resurrection from Dark Heresy. You take a recently dead or nearly dead character, and fill them with cybernetics to get them back on their feet, at the cost of severe damage to their mind and humanity. It basically turns you into a bionic zombie, and for some characters is a fate worse than death.

I'd actually like it if D&D treated proper resurrection magic as much harder to do, instead making the readily available option be necromancy. Your character dies and gets the option of being brought back as an undead with their previous class levels intact kind of thing.

Something like Deadlands? You can come back from death 1 time ever, with slightly increased stats, if you have the correct card in your hand* when you die. Or you can start as an undead for the improved stats, but stay dead the next time you die.

*I haven't played personally, so I have no idea how difficult or unlikely that is. Less than 100%, anyway, and you have to choose to keep a card in your hand that does nothing unless you die, which a more useful card may have prevented.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 09, 2022, 01:48:07 pm

Resurrection bothers me too. When DMing I try and home-brew it away into non-existence, or get an agreement that it requires some incredibly rare material component, or even significant consequences of sometype: say, ability penalties, or being chased from beyond the grave in some way. Death needs to have consequences.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 09, 2022, 01:59:51 pm

I mean, if you get blasted by something like Disintegrate, it does explicitly state that you're not coming back except under the circumstances of True Resurrect, which is a 9th-level spell with a 25,000gp price tag attached.

Or, alternatively, Wish. Which is one of those circumstances where the caster may potentially never get to cast Wish again.

...but then again, if you're playing in a campaign where those restrictions are meaningless, then I guess those restrictions are meaningless.


Personally I kinda liked the concept of WHFRP's fate points... You spend a rare resource instead of dying, as part of a choice you make. Once you're dead-dead though, good friggin' luck.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 09, 2022, 02:07:04 pm

I've never been in a dnd campaign where we were high enough level to cast any of that shit regardless. Must be nearly an irl year of meeting regularly and killing tons of monsters to get a cleric to that point by the default rules and I can't imagine that kinda game actually happens.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 02:41:22 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on August 09, 2022, 02:07:04 pm

I've never been in a dnd campaign where we were high enough level to cast any of that shit regardless. Must be nearly an irl year of meeting regularly and killing tons of monsters to get a cleric to that point by the default rules and I can't imagine that kinda game actually happens.

For 5e at least, following the reccomended number of encounters and exp gains it takes about four sessions to hit level 5 from level 1, at which point Revivify, the weakest rez spell comes online. In practice it's the only rez spell a PC is likey to ever need unless they fight beholders constantly.

Getting to the next rez spell takes a lot longer, because of how 5e is structured. The design intent is for games to mostly occur between levels 5 and 16, with levelling outside of that range being faster than it is within the range.

Thing about rez spells in D&D is that they aren't hard to do in a normal campaign. Money flows like water, so getting the reagents is trivial to the point that it's a cliche for the casters to carry around enough diamond dust to buy a small kingdom. Being disentegrated is something that shouldn't happen often, if ever, most of the time someone dies because something slapped them hard, and revivify can rez you from anything short of being turned into ash provided the caster can get to you within a minute of death, which due to the ranges involved in normal D&D is so trivial it's barely worth mentioning.

Thing is that D&D, especially 5e, intends for death to be nothing more than one of the tools of attrition. It's not a loss state, it's just another way to expend spell slots and gold. It's an actual part of the design philosophy, which is rooted in an outmoded 'dungeon delver' concept that most people don't actually play like.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on August 09, 2022, 03:02:16 pm

5es a lot more loosey goosey with the treasure and expected wealth of a party then previous editions, and the economic assumptions underpinning the fantasy worlds it takes place in a lot less fleshed out in general. It's a GM decision about how trivial the cost of reagents for expensive spells are for parties. To quote the DMG "You can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want." There's no particular reason to go with an average if you don't want it to be so trivial to cast such spells.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 09, 2022, 03:05:50 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 02:41:22 pm

For 5e at least, following the reccomended number of encounters and exp gains it takes about four sessions to hit level 5 from level 1

The recommended number of encounters per session is absurd unless you're both a well oiled wargaming machine of a group AND don't care about anything but fights. It's not how things actually play out with any group I've played with.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 03:23:14 pm

Encounters is supposed to include things like traps and social interactions. Convincing someone that they should sell you stuff at a discount, gate guards that they should let you pass, or fording a deep river for example.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 09, 2022, 03:30:36 pm

I was wondering recently how much it'd break stuff if you gave the party a kind of "collective fund", like a guild treasury or something, and the only way they could earn XP is by donating cash to the fund. Collective XP, naturally, so it's not just the person stuffing coins into the chest who gets a bonus. Sorta like the age-old system, but not quite.

They'd be able to take money out as well when necessary, but would have to make up the difference before earning XP again.

I think it could potentially be an interesting mechanic in a fairly equipment-heavy campaign, where they'd have to evaluate looming threats and decide on whether they needed loot or levels more at the moment. Plus it gives players a regular and predictable sense of progression (without being locked to simply beating things over the head), and a reason to keep returning to a central hub.


It also opens itself up to incredibly scandalous get-rich-quick schemes, bickering, and exploitation. So I'unno.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 04:11:28 pm

I generally feel exp/levels should happen in response to players making progress towards goals. Doesn't matter what the goal is really, but as long as the player is achieving something of some merit, or overcoming an obstacle it should be rewarded.

Defeating enemies, making friends, upgrading a castle or a spaceship, securing investments for an expedition, getting engaged, winning a contest, so on and so forth.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on August 09, 2022, 06:16:37 pm

Yeah, if you and your players enjoy wealth-gain fantasy, then this is a good system because it incentivizes getting money even more than the base game already does. I personally don't enjoy that type of play, but two of my players do, so it gets sprinkled in. They would certainly love a campaign focused on that.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 10, 2022, 05:00:04 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 11:53:52 am

Ressurection is one of my pet peeves with D&D. It undercuts basically all the possible drama that comes from what should be an important moment.
If a character dies, be it a heroic death, a tragic one or even a stupid one, it should generally be permanent or only able to be undone at great cost.
I'd much rather my character just be dead than rezzed, unless bringing them back is going to leave a permanent mark of some kind.

Yeah it completely broke my investment in the campaign. Hard to really care when a char is brought back from the dead and the party reaction is essentially "cool now where were we"

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 11:53:52 am

Really the only 'resurrection' mechanic I think I've ever liked is cyber-resurrection from Dark Heresy. You take a recently dead or nearly dead character, and fill them with cybernetics to get them back on their feet, at the cost of severe damage to their mind and humanity. It basically turns you into a bionic zombie, and for some characters is a fate worse than death.

One of my favourite resurrection mechanics also came from dark heresy; it was a chaos artifact that could bring someone back to life if you put their corpse in the machine. Only, being a chaos artifact that draws souls from the warp, it was an object of high value to multiple factions, and your radical colleagues would no doubt try to kill you to steal the artifact, whilst your puritan colleagues would try to kill you and destroy the artifact, and in addition to taking corruption for using it you'd have a fair chance of being declared a traitor or heretic. To top it all off, once you went through the trouble of finding the artefact - using the artefact, there was a good chance the corpse resurrected would be a demonhost. So you'd then have to contend with the demonhost with all the skills of your dead comrade. If you managed to then capture the demonhost, and exorcise the demon, without causing so much damage that you killed the host - the player char would now be usable again, and this time they would gain all the benefits of being an exorcised character. You get to have resurrection, fight up hill every step of the way to triumph over life or death, and establish several good reasons why it's not worth it to try it carelessly.

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 11:53:52 am

I'd actually like it if D&D treated proper resurrection magic as much harder to do, instead making the readily available option be necromancy. Your character dies and gets the option of being brought back as an undead with their previous class levels intact kind of thing.

There are a few background descriptions for characters which are "revived". Like the "rogue/revived" and the "reborn" race, so there is definitely the framework for it, and it's easy to homebrew

Quote from: scriver on August 09, 2022, 12:18:19 pm

Unfortunately, the chaos 40k is probably the one I'm not particularly interested in playing, personally. I don't really have an idea of BC games goes though. But I'd be worried of it being too "edge for the edgy throne" if you know what I mean.

I'm of two minds about BC. The mechanics heavily heavily reward aligning your character with one of the four chaos gods in everything. Skills, talents AND most of all, roleplay & actions. So a Khornite character gets rewarded infamy for making a charge towards a bunker over open ground armed only with an axe in hand. The kind of characters that worship chaos undivided like the Word Bearers, seek to master it like the Black Legion, or hold chaos in contempt and look at it as just another tool like the Iron Warriors or rogue inquisitors, generally have a much harder life. I remember having this discussion with some anon about how I was annoyed that characters sliding towards chaos were usuallly very interesting characters. But the moment they achieved victory and reached apotheosis, they became living incarnations of just BLOOD or SCHEMING or POO POO or DICKS. They pointed out very correctly that it's almost like they were called the ruinous powers for a reason. And on reflection, I thought that Black Crusade had actually succeeded greatly in creating a system where the roleplay lore and mechanics matched up wonderfully. Because as you reach closer and closer to apotheosis, you resemble more and more your patron deity in action, body and values. If you choose to walk a path undivided, it is naturally going to be much harder because all the gods are pulling at your soul and all of them are trying to make you fail or choose them. So it's a double-edged sword, because if you try to RP something outside the spectrum of ALL CAPS PHILOSOPHY, it's going to be much harder. So it's more satisfying when you pull it off, but can bring its own problems, e.g. misaligned chaos players are expected to work against each other but not every group has the experience (or the maturity?) to pull off inter-player competition

Quote from: Iduno on August 09, 2022, 12:55:55 pm

That is the largest niche that exists among people looking for a game that isn't D&D.

The problem is not that he wanted all of those things, it's that the game he described wanting to play... Was DnD. But he didn't want DnD. It's like someone describing how they want bacon in between two slices of bread but they don't want a bacon sandwich

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 03:23:14 pm

Encounters is supposed to include things like traps and social interactions. Convincing someone that they should sell you stuff at a discount, gate guards that they should let you pass, or fording a deep river for example.

I thought it was 5-8 combat encounters at a same CR as the party to exhaust your long rest resources & HD

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Criptfeind on August 10, 2022, 07:48:35 am

In theory diplomacy and various other skill non combat encounters can count as encounters and thus should be included, but the issue there lays in that the 6-8 encounter "average" is based on the encounter difficulty, and it's not obvious how to translate non combat encounters into exp (and thus difficulty). Like "Convincing someone that they should sell you stuff at a discount" sure that can be an encounter, but how much exp would you say that's worth? If it's just a diplomacy check, or even less, just the players managing to not be hobos for some roleplaying, that'd probably be worth a trivial amount of exp, low enough to be below the easy encounter threshold and do nothing to eat into your daily encounter budget. Of course, that's entirely GM dependent, maybe you DO decide, especially at low levels, that's worth 100-150 exp and count it as an encounter. Or maybe you can go ahead and make the task much more complex, the rogue sneaks though the trapped and locked backrooms for dirt on the merchant, the fighter helps rebuild a broken wall that starts to dangerously crumble well you are there, the cleric distracts, buffs, and heals as the warlock and bard work together with their magic and wiles to rouse up a protest against the high prices, then calm it down, all to convince the merchant to sell to the party. But at the point where you've added enough stuff that certainly you're back to the point not going to do 6-8 of these per day.

So yeah, unless you have a GM that's very generous with exp for trivial tasks the encounters per day metric is pretty absurd. Although I guess it'd be sorta funny and okay to give out exp prizes to level 1 characters for doing things like talking their way past gate guards. Might be a reasonable way to get out of the low levels quickly without going into the rocket tag that is level 1 combat.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on August 10, 2022, 07:58:04 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on August 10, 2022, 05:00:04 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on August 09, 2022, 11:53:52 am

Ressurection is one of my pet peeves with D&D. It undercuts basically all the possible drama that comes from what should be an important moment.
If a character dies, be it a heroic death, a tragic one or even a stupid one, it should generally be permanent or only able to be undone at great cost.
I'd much rather my character just be dead than rezzed, unless bringing them back is going to leave a permanent mark of some kind.

Yeah it completely broke my investment in the campaign. Hard to really care when a char is brought back from the dead and the party reaction is essentially "cool now where were we"

Did you consider simply saying "No, my character wouldn't want to come back."? Spells like Raise Dead generally specify that the soul needs to be willing to return.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on August 23, 2022, 12:41:12 pm

So I had a weird, pretty fucked up dream which gave me an idea for an encounter.

Undead, sapient, talking horse. It's made up of various parts of different horses and even animals, with bits of it rotting, sloughing off etc. It claims to have no knowledge of how it's undead, as far as it's concerned it woke up in a battlefield torn to pieces. It took it a number of weeks to learn that it could reanimate nearby body parts and attach them to itself, turning it into the hybrid undead thing you meet. It's perfectly nice in personality, although its head has a habit of falling off which it's a bit embarrassed about, and asks the players to look away while it reattaches it. It's looking for a way to bring itself back to life properly, it hates being undead and the fact that it keeps needing to replace bits of itself as they rot down is inconvenient.

Its set up shop in some old ruins, where there's loads of stuff that it's scavenged like magic books, alchemy equipment and the like. There's a number of arms that it controls in order to make stuff and do experiments to try and bring itself back to life.

Now it'll try to isolate a player, get the rest to bugger off somewhere, perfectly nice again. Maybe ask them to grab some stuff while one stays behind to help with some alchemy. Once the player's by itself the head will fall off again, and it'll ask the player to turn around while it reattaches it. If the player does they'll suddenly be grabbed by a load of rotten meaty tentacles/viscera which will then try to drag them into the torso of the undead horse. Because it wasn't a horse, it was a centaur, and it's after an undamaged upper body. It's also why the head kept falling off - It wasn't actually a part of it.

The player can basically lose the ensuing fight by either dying to it or, if they're idiotic, they refuse to resist and wind up being integrated into it.

Now I've no idea what the fuck made my brain come up with this while I was asleep. I don't think I'd have thought up of something like that in my waking hours, but apparently my brain goes full original gore-horror once my eyes are closed.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on August 23, 2022, 01:52:38 pm

Hey, or they can pass a will roll or whatever to become an unexpected new class and race  :D

i.e. zombie flesh-taur

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on August 23, 2022, 04:22:19 pm

"I'm not getting absorbed into you... You're getting absorbed into me!"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on August 23, 2022, 06:02:51 pm

What's the difference, when you think about it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on August 24, 2022, 03:54:54 am

That's pretty metal, it feels like there should be a chance to over power it and take over the body as your own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 10, 2022, 06:38:58 am

Quote from: Persus13 on August 10, 2022, 07:58:04 am

Did you consider simply saying "No, my character wouldn't want to come back."? Spells like Raise Dead generally specify that the soul needs to be willing to return.

It's hard to retroactively withdraw consent based on a reaction you didn't anticipate

Quote from: Great Order on August 23, 2022, 12:41:12 pm

The player can basically lose the ensuing fight by either dying to it or, if they're idiotic, they refuse to resist and wind up being integrated into it.

Now I've no idea what the fuck made my brain come up with this while I was asleep. I don't think I'd have thought up of something like that in my waking hours, but apparently my brain goes full original gore-horror once my eyes are closed.

Is there any chance you saw some of the drawings about this exact concept? I know there were two anons years ago who drew undead centaur-capture things, and some WHF art where the centaur was just the vascular system and muscular system of one person

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on September 10, 2022, 07:48:47 am

Possible, but if I did I don't remember it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 11, 2022, 01:56:30 pm

Quote from: Great Order on September 10, 2022, 07:48:47 am

Possible, but if I did I don't remember it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/8MP04yp.png)

Spoiler: mild nsfw warning (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/h5UsUIm.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/XUA17Ac.png)

I think these are the earliest depictions of this concept

*EDIT
There is also the older concept of the Nuckelavee
And these ones from WHFRP which are made out of one person

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/QiySH1O.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/UiL2keZ.png)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 11, 2022, 02:49:30 pm

Chaos: Not Even Once

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on September 11, 2022, 03:08:40 pm

Actually I think I pinned down the dream-inspiration. There's an SCP, I assume based on the nuckelavee, which are centaur-like things that search battlefields and target wounded people. Some part of it is the diary of a WWI soldier talking about them, finally mentioning his friend disappeared and he saw one that looked like him.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on September 12, 2022, 03:58:12 am

Sounds pretty metal.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 14, 2022, 02:08:09 pm

Quote from: Great Order on September 11, 2022, 03:08:40 pm

Actually I think I pinned down the dream-inspiration. There's an SCP, I assume based on the nuckelavee, which are centaur-like things that search battlefields and target wounded people. Some part of it is the diary of a WWI soldier talking about them, finally mentioning his friend disappeared and he saw one that looked like him.

A dark fantasy WWI setting where all the dead horses, cavalrymen and porters start getting fused in the trenches is really brutal and metal

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on September 14, 2022, 02:20:43 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on September 14, 2022, 02:08:09 pm

Quote from: Great Order on September 11, 2022, 03:08:40 pm

Actually I think I pinned down the dream-inspiration. There's an SCP, I assume based on the nuckelavee, which are centaur-like things that search battlefields and target wounded people. Some part of it is the diary of a WWI soldier talking about them, finally mentioning his friend disappeared and he saw one that looked like him.

A dark fantasy WWI setting where all the dead horses, cavalrymen and porters start getting fused in the trenches is really brutal and metal

"The spasmodically squirming, braying, and snorting half-corpses were heaped each upon the other, until at last I was rid of them. The warrens had become a landfill of snout and hoof, gristle and bone - a mountainous, twitching mass of misshapen flesh, fusing itself together in the darkness."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 14, 2022, 03:00:23 pm

Quote from: Great Order on September 14, 2022, 02:20:43 pm

"The spasmodically squirming, braying, and snorting half-corpses were heaped each upon the other, until at last I was rid of them. The warrens had become a landfill of snout and hoof, gristle and bone - a mountainous, twitching mass of misshapen flesh, fusing itself together in the darkness."

'Oh yeah the papers always liked to rile everyone up with big tales of the trench beasts, but really it was no big problem. You just kept your lanterns lit and your bayonet sharp, and a few prods and the thing would scurry away. They're scavengers looking for an easy meal. They don't like resistance.'
'So... What do you do if you don't have your bayonet?'
'That's the thing - you never let go of it. Not in the trenches.'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 14, 2022, 07:01:15 pm

The good news is that most of the trench beasts get killed under artillery barrages, while you hide in safe dugouts. The bad news is that the remaining ones are angry.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on September 14, 2022, 08:52:56 pm

That's what the flamethrowers are for.

You know, now I'm wanting some sort of game or book series or something set mid-WWI where just overnight there was some sort of utterly undirected supernatural invasion. There's no major intelligence behind it or anything, just the world, all geared up to be killing one another suddenly rediscovering the fear of the lion on the savannah.

Only these lions are unnatural monstrosities with significantly more body parts than they have any right to own.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 14, 2022, 09:16:26 pm

since we're in the RPG thread, would make for an amusing horror oneshot probably.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 15, 2022, 02:26:39 am

Quote from: Great Order on September 14, 2022, 08:52:56 pm

That's what the flamethrowers are for.

You know, now I'm wanting some sort of game or book series or something set mid-WWI where just overnight there was some sort of utterly undirected supernatural invasion. There's no major intelligence behind it or anything, just the world, all geared up to be killing one another suddenly rediscovering the fear of the lion on the savannah.

Only these lions are unnatural monstrosities with significantly more body parts than they have any right to own.

I mean, that's more or less the plot (such as it is) behind Necrovision. Also kinda Call of Cthulhu: The Wasted Land, but there I think they have to specifically track down the gribblies instead of just having all the lines suddenly overrun by them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on September 15, 2022, 05:00:31 am

WWI seems like an under used back drop for horror games, wish more stuff would use it.


Also I'd play this WWI horror thing if someone ran it here.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 16, 2022, 09:30:47 pm

I've been deep thread-diving and I'm nostalgic for liches.  My group's DM loved them, made a whole state of them (along with ghouls and other undead).  Necropolitan mortals, too, studying to become liches using special gems (vampiric diamonds?) mined by the proletariat.

What I'm wondering is:  Where the heck should a lich's phylactery be?
Order Of The Stick has Xykon hiding it (heh) away in an unthinkable (heh) corner of the astral plane.  That seems like the obvious choice, even for a sorcerer-lich.
On the flipside, what makes for the best story?

My favorite was a story where the phylactery was embedded in the father of one of the PCs or something, for pathos.  That might have been Penny Arcade and it didn't make much sense.  I guess a ridiculously popular fantasy author who-should-not-be-named pulled something similar.  But it's supposed to just be an object.  Can finding a magic item make a good coda to defeating a lich, already a terribly powerful end-boss?  I think it can, but it needs preparation.

In our campaign the society of liches just had a special vault for their phylacteries and we basically had no chance at true-deathing any of them.  That mostly turned out fine, as we "ended" a high-ranking but spiteful lich general into greater and greater fury until he/it became a ragemancer.

I have no idea how he became a general in a geniocracy/technocracy like this.  He was exceptionally stupid and impetuous.  I think... I think he was just good at torturing and scaring people, honestly.
maybe a sorcerer

Edit:  Haha 2013 but:  Don't you know?  You never split the party! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmMqg_GBFFA)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 16, 2022, 10:20:07 pm

There is precedent for a phylactery being inside of a living thing, though not necessarily being the thing itself. They're based on Koschei the Deathless, who had his soul hidden inside an egg, and then hid that egg inside animals who were themselves inside other animals (usually a hare and a duck IIRC, though I cannot recall the order,) with the outermost animal being hidden in a location, such as a tree.


I like the idea of a lich putting their phylactery into something that's really valuable or powerful, such that keeping the phylactery intact in order to use it is genuinely tempting. Powerful swords, magical horses, nigh-impervious suits of armour and so on. Stick your soul into something of extraordinary value, give that something away as a gift and let it build reputation until almost no one could turn down the chance to keep it for themselves. It's no secret that the item is a phylactery, it's just also really nice, and you don't leap to being obviously malevolent until it's had time to become a desirable artifact.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 16, 2022, 10:22:45 pm

Don't liches need access to their souljars in order to feed by cramming other people's souls into it? Which they need to do in order to remain "sane"?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on September 16, 2022, 10:46:55 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on September 16, 2022, 10:22:45 pm

Don't liches need access to their souljars in order to feed by cramming other people's souls into it? Which they need to do in order to remain "sane"?

This is the kinda thing I was sorta wondering about.  I never heard that though, not when I was playing.  We didn't have any liches after we switched to 5e though, so maybe?
Skeletons and other mindless undead similarly changed in fundamental nature.  Instead of animating some bones, it became a soul lock.  I guess??  I don't know 5e necromancy well, I think our GM didn't like the changes or was tired of using undead.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on September 16, 2022, 10:49:23 pm

You can probably make it work any way you want, but I got that from the 5e monster manual. Liches keep the Soul Jar spell prepared and use that to shove people into their soul jar. If if they don't do that they don't die but do go maaaaad and turn into demiliches.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 17, 2022, 08:19:27 am

You keep it where your heart was so that you'll have a heart of stone of course (https://youtu.be/st2eawTozu8)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on September 17, 2022, 08:30:14 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on September 16, 2022, 10:22:45 pm

Don't liches need access to their souljars in order to feed by cramming other people's souls into it? Which they need to do in order to remain "sane"?

That was something new added to D&D 5e, prior to that liches didn't need anything to maintain their phylactery. One big unspecified evil act to create it, but no evil required to maintain it. Now it's an evil act to create it, and regular human(oid) sacrifice to maintain it.

Given that 5e decided to make the evil race/monsters more inherently evil than prior editions, the change was probably largely to make liches always be a legitimate target for 'good' characters without the potential for moral ambiguity or subtle cunning.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on September 17, 2022, 09:28:45 am

While simultaneously making it an even worse option than just clone-wishing yourself into immortality.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: heydude6 on September 17, 2022, 09:43:54 am

The only problem with that is that it kills the “sleeping Lich in a cave” trope. That’s when adventurers explore a random cave and runs into a lich hiding out in there that hasn’t been seen for centuries.

Though liches genuinely are tough, it always seemed to me that going into hiding has always been a bigger aspect of their survival.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on September 17, 2022, 09:57:52 am

Remember the first rule of D&D: You can change the rules to your liking.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 17, 2022, 11:11:06 am

I remember Libris Mortis had a bard who was a lich, which is weird but technically possible as they're arcane

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on September 17, 2022, 12:18:12 pm

Didn't demiliches use to be ascended liches, or am I confusing the name for something similar?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Culise on September 17, 2022, 12:22:40 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 17, 2022, 08:30:14 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on September 16, 2022, 10:22:45 pm

Don't liches need access to their souljars in order to feed by cramming other people's souls into it? Which they need to do in order to remain "sane"?

That was something new added to D&D 5e, prior to that liches didn't need anything to maintain their phylactery. One big unspecified evil act to create it, but no evil required to maintain it. Now it's an evil act to create it, and regular human(oid) sacrifice to maintain it.

Given that 5e decided to make the evil race/monsters more inherently evil than prior editions, the change was probably largely to make liches always be a legitimate target for 'good' characters without the potential for moral ambiguity or subtle cunning.

It was probably also done to reduce exploits that allowed certain DMs and players to dump the phylactery someplace completely inaccessible from the outside, completely nondescript ("grain of sand on a beach" level), or both.  By forcing them to regularly maintain the magics, they have to create some way for them to access the phylactery from the outside that can be traced, rather than making the only path that needs to be taken from it one accessible only from the inside. 

That said, 5e doesn't seem to give a time frame other than "periodically," though the soul itself disintegrates after 24 hours.  Per rule 1, I imagine a DM could rather logically rule that a lich can maintain a phylactery for far longer by sleeping/hiding, reducing the drain on it.  They can then just wake up every once in a while, snatch a soul to recharge it, do whatever they want for a while, then take another nap. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MrRoboto75 on September 28, 2022, 03:12:48 pm

Saw Gurps: Y2K at the used bookstore, thought "yooo they made a tabletop version of Yiik: A Postmodern RPG"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Cthulhu on September 29, 2022, 07:49:12 am

I really don't like that change.  Mechanics and exploits aside (Dm can just say no) the entire point of becoming a lich is so you can focus entirely on your arcane research and shenanigans, if you still have to eat it defeats the purpose.

And yeah, 5e a demilich is a lich who couldn't feed and degenerated to an insane predator.  Before a demilich was a lich who's gone so far beyond that he doesn't even need an immortal body anymore, and just lies around as a skull while rationally deriving the entire universe with his giant magic brain.

I kind of get that, it's a weird use of "demi" but I still prefer the old ones.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 13, 2022, 02:18:14 pm

So, I've recently gotten myself recruited as a "Dedicated guest player" for an ongoing campaign, where I'm getting inserted into the caravan come Tuesday. I just need to do some reading on the GM's wiki so I can acquaint myself with the lore behind the significant world events, major factions, this caravan, recent plot lines, the custom chess-like he's built in as a minigame...

Then I can make an acceptable character! Who might end up dying relatively quickly, as he doesn't pull punches and long rests are now "half-gritty" in that they're two consecutive nights without incident. And given that we're currently in the middle of a demon-ravaged wasteland with low visibility and the DM has specifically and repeatedly voiced the necessity of making sure the character is "built with good sustain", I have the impression that ~40 hours without something going bump is  unlikely anytime soon.


Also I'm attempting to go for a melee tank of sorts, since the party composition sounded like it didn't have any real frontliners in it. This'll be interesting.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 17, 2022, 10:06:54 am

Sounds like a rare opportunity to go full barbarian

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on October 18, 2022, 09:56:54 pm

I find myself in an introspective mood, and I wonder why so many groups I've been in reject the concept of just being evil and owning it. Almost every PC I've ever encountered was fundamentally evil and self serving, willing to knife a guy for a handful of coins provided they didn't like him, defile bodies, loot from temples, break deals, flout cultural norms, belittle the superstitious and prejudiced to their faces, manipulate, steal and lie.

About the only thing I can say was consistently good about the PCs I've seen was that they were all anti-child cruelty and (mostly) pro-equality. Still casually violent and greedy, the desire to protect children and minorities (including fantasy one) being about the only redeeming quality.


Why have we never just gone 'fuck it' and overthrown a monarchy to implement our own regime of tight leather and spiky metal armour? We always just meander along picking up breadcrumbs with personal goals that we have little agency to achieve. I want to see more PCs with personal goals like 'fabricate a claim to the throne and start a civil war,' or 'use sectarian violence and rabble rousing to propel myself into a position of high office in my city.'

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 19, 2022, 04:33:13 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 18, 2022, 09:56:54 pm

being evil and owning it.

Because if they accept and embrace being evil, they go from being casually violent and greedy to being professionally violent and greedy. Now they're giving themselves an evil allowance, but if they identify as evil they'll start trying to fill an evil quota. And only madness lies down that path.

Veneers make a difference! Sometimes, anyways.

Quote from: Loud Whispers on October 17, 2022, 10:06:54 am

Sounds like a rare opportunity to go full barbarian

'Tis indeed, they even lost their old barbarian a couple sessions ago!  I've tried to stock up on beefness, but didn't want to go the tried-and-true standard of Bearbarb. Opted for Beast instead, for the reaction +d8 to AC (and sundry). With shield and the ridiculous stats we're granted, I'm at a fairly respectable 18 AC standard.

Speaking of stats... He uses a fixed array that we can then make two adjustments to: Subtract 2 from one stat to add 2 to another, and subtract 1 from one stat to add 1 to another.

That fixed array is as follows: 16, 15, 14, 12, 12, 12. Soooo... With mountain dwarf, my level one stats were 20 STR, 18 CON, and 14 DEX. We also get a free feat at level 1, which I decided to throw at Resilient: Wisdom to patch my WIS saves up a touch. Also get one free uncommon magic item. Nabbed a Periapt of Wound Closure, figured I'd done a decent job of becoming reasonably tanky.


Fight starts, and I make sure to move ahead of the squishies. It was at this point, everything went wrong... I was too far away to safely rage, so I just positioned myself and started dodging. Ettin comes up, rolls two attacks with disadvantage against my 18 AC... Ends up with 22 and 24. Got smacked for just over half my health on my first round of combat.

Then the other ogre-ish-thingy comes over, and does a sweeping club attack... DEX save, it's an effect I can see so I get advantage on the roll, and if it does half damage on a success I can use my reaction to negate it via Shield Master!

Yeah, with advantage I got as high as 13, failing the save. Down to 9 hitpoints.

My turn rolls around, and I pick myself up while raging to get my defensive tail. I swing my hammer at the ettin, and... Fumble. But at least making an attack preserves my rage!

Then the Ettin stands up and flat out crits me. The rage neither reduced the damage to leave my conscious, nor saved me from being instakilled because 33 damage ain't enough to take me down.

"Ah!" I think, "Now I get to make use of my Periapt and auto-stabilize at the start of my turn!" except, no, I get healed and brought back to consciousness. Then the ogre does his swingy club thing again, DEX save, and with advantage I roll... 6 total. This is supposed to knock me prone as well, but I was already lying down from last time so we just interpret this as me getting smushed even deeper into the dirt.

Despite having lost my rage, this apparently didn't stop my character from getting angry enough to stand back up, slap the ettin for max damage on my warhammer, and then shield-bash the ogre to the ground which allows another member to get a good hit off thanks to the prone advantage. Then I got hit and knocked unconscious again.


Thanks to the prodigious healing afforded me by the party and my well of hitpoints being deep enough to avoid instadeath, I did manage to get back on my feet right at the end of the fight. Hilariously, the DM Deus Ex Machina reinforcements swooped into the field of battle just as we finished off the last mook, leaving them all dressed up with nothing to do.

Combat wraps up, some minor looting and RP happens, and we're informed that we get to have a short rest while walking back to rejoin the caravan. "Ah!" I think again, "Now's my chance to make fantastic economic usage of my Periapt, since it doubles the healing I get from spending hit dice! Despite only having 10hp now, I'll probably only need to roll one die to get back to good health!" And so I roll my big ol' beefy Barbarian d12 hit dice.

...1

Fuck. Roll another.

...1

Fuck. Roll a third!

...7

Beh... Alright, fine.


So, yeah. I survived, but pretty much all my cool shit buttons built into making this character tanky failed to activate thanks to hilarious rolls and teammates actually propping me up every time I went down. Great success, in other words!

I mean, I did kinda do my job... The big nasties basically failed to put so much as a single scratch on anyone else, thanks to rolling abysmally when dealing with any of the other party members. I joked that I ate all their good rolls for the good of the team :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on October 31, 2022, 05:31:08 am

We've been granted a level up post-session, so now everyone's level 5 going in to tomorrow's session which is described as a "giga combat sessions" where "striiiiiiict discipline" will be enforced due to the large number of players.

Since we're going up against some nasty nasties including at least one vrock, I decided to use a bit more of my hit dice to patch up (last session ended on a short rest, and rules allow for you to progressively choose if you want to roll another die or not during the healing process, so... It's technically kosher, just with a very long indecisive delay in between rolls).

...and have concluded that this character is just fukken cursed.


On my big beefy barbarian d12, I rolled... a 1 and a 2.

This brings the roll summary of all five hit dice to: 1, 1, 1, 2, 7. Thank goodness I get to double those amounts, but for chrissakes man...


...aaaaaaand it was at this moment I realized that I've been failing to add my +CON mod to any of the rolls, so I should actually have considerably more health than I do. To the point of going over my cap, given the periapt of wound closure. Durr.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 07, 2022, 11:18:44 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 18, 2022, 09:56:54 pm

I find myself in an introspective mood, and I wonder why so many groups I've been in reject the concept of just being evil and owning it. Almost every PC I've ever encountered was fundamentally evil and self serving, willing to knife a guy for a handful of coins provided they didn't like him, defile bodies, loot from temples, break deals, flout cultural norms, belittle the superstitious and prejudiced to their faces, manipulate, steal and lie.

About the only thing I can say was consistently good about the PCs I've seen was that they were all anti-child cruelty and (mostly) pro-equality. Still casually violent and greedy, the desire to protect children and minorities (including fantasy one) being about the only redeeming quality.

Why have we never just gone 'fuck it' and overthrown a monarchy to implement our own regime of tight leather and spiky metal armour? We always just meander along picking up breadcrumbs with personal goals that we have little agency to achieve. I want to see more PCs with personal goals like 'fabricate a claim to the throne and start a civil war,' or 'use sectarian violence and rabble rousing to propel myself into a position of high office in my city.'

tl;dr:
1. Players have different abilities to roleplay as a character, especially one with different moral systems
2. Players themselves have different moral systems, and abilities to understand different moral systems
3. You often find players who do not actually know what they want out of a game

1. Players who can't roleplay RPGs can't roleplay as an evil person
Because they are essentially self-inserting and unless they are particularly edgy, do not like feeling like an evil person.
'I'm tired of playing this char because I basically just RP him as myself and he's such a shit person so it's making me feel like shit too,' - actual quote from one of my TTRPG group playing with another DM.
I once had a good laugh making "evil" characters with one of my DM friends, in a campaign where I'd show up to play NPCs occasionally, e.g. an old lady who lived in the woods who was clearly a probable witch, but there was never any definite proof she was the cause of any of the weird and horrible things happening. One of my players, frequent user of Reddit, always plays the same character in every setting and every game (e.g. good natured intellectual who uses healing magic/biowarfare/subterfuge/metagaming to destroy the enemy without a fight).
He asks if my NPC was really an evil witch or not, both the DM and I say we have no idea. This player ended up destroying the afterlife, deleting all souls, including those who had lived good lives or sad lives, and became an enforcer for the government that was genociding all the elves and wizards, concentration camps and all. Even stopped a wizard plot to destroy the government's WMD program, so the government was able to mass-produce nuclear bombs. Pretty clear cut evil right? But for some reason they just kept siding with authority or refusing to work outside of established courtly procedure.

My DM was crying to me tears of blood over curry that the same player who had destroyed the afterlife and was talking about using dimensional teleportation to send his big villain into the sun was the same player complaining that he wasn't "allowed" to stop the concentration camps even though one fireball is all it'd take to tear down the camp walls.
I next made a necromancer child character who was basically a ( Blue's Clues character + evil spooky necromancy ) in this campaign. This same player said the necrochild was too evil to be in the party, despite the necrochild having saved the lives of 3 people, killed no one, attacked no one. The main difference is whereas with the old lady not!witch I and the DM had left it ambiguous, with the necrochild the DM and I said out of character they really were a necromancer.
It was almost like a parody of a generic JRPG where the corrupt church of light masquerades as "good" because it's brightly coloured in shining armour whilst the "evil bone lords" are actually the ones interested in helping people. What's key however, is that he was RPing as a cute and wholesome bard, which is clearly good-seeming, whereas I was RPing as a Dr. Frankenstein reanimator, which is clearly evil-seeming.

2. Players who have a difficult time even understanding what an evil person is
I've had many players of many faiths, and lack thereofs. One particular advantage of playing with atheists, Hindus, Muslims and Eastern faith peoples is that none of them I played with knew what furries were, so I would not have to deal with white froth of the mouth any time a mythological creature was encountered. But there are other things I've noticed, which is that all of my players who have grown up as a minority inside of other people's moral majorities have a much more developed sense of wide perspective than those who were Catholics who lived in Catholic worlds or Jewish and lived in Jewish worlds all their life. E.g. one such player messed up and accidentally killed an innocent person by blasting their warlock invocations all over the place, and in order to maintain a good reputation with a friendly NPC, began murdering every single NPC who had knowledge of their misdeeds in an ever-growing spiral of murder.

When pressed on whether murdering children to steal their souls was morally good or not, or whether murdering many peoples to protect your reputation as a good person is good or not, they presented many moral relativistic arguments instead of facing the obvious that they were RPing as very nasty men. For them they had a great deal of difficulty understanding morality on an intrinsic level, instead constantly evaluating it on an intellectual level (no surprise they spent aeons in academia).
Another genuinely told me to my face "well I'm glad I don't think like you," when I explained to them my religious beliefs, after they asked me about my religious beliefs. They did this without a hint of malice or arrogance in their voice; and often would deny that it was possible for others to think any different way besides their own world-view. When you are this myopic how can you even begin to make an evil character, when you can rationalise any evil as good provided an authority figure sanctions it, and evil is just a piece of clothing you wear?

3. PLAYERS OFTEN DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WANT
It is a frequent frustration that outside of a core group of good gamers, I and other GMs or DMs I've been friends with over the years who have had players complain after being given exactly what they asked for. E.g. they want an open world game where they are free to do what they want, but then complain that they are not being given orders or quests, or complain that they do not know what they can or cannot do when given exactly an open world of freedom. Unfortunately this also applies to playing in evil or morally grey campaigns.
Even ones who request evil campaigns I've found do not want evil campaigns. They want heroic campaigns where they save the day, but are dressed in black leather. They want to play the matrix, but don't know they want to play the matrix, so they ask for an evil campaign.

I once had a dark heresy campaign go up in flames. There were many reasons for its death, but one of the hilarious ones was a player who was tasked by the Inquisition to assassinate some Tau officials who were slowly working towards annexing an Imperial world. They kept confiding in the other players that the Tau were obviously hiding something sinister and evil, behind their thin facade of religious tolerance, alien pluralism, social progress and imperial federalism. Only, there was no sinister plot (from the Tau).
They had gone into this Inquisition campaign on the assumption that everything they did would be justified and all the aliens they exterminate are evil, but the first thing I told him was come into this with no assumptions, and in the Inquisition the first thing you realise everything you "know" is a lie. I had to deal with this same player who complained that my Inquisitor NPCs were not exterminating worlds, heretics and aliens on sight as "unrealistic" was now tasking them assassinating "nice" aliens.
Does he seriously think all the "heretics" deserved it too?
FML.
Though admittedly it's my fault for not seeing it coming, they also saw their actions as morally justified when defending the concentration camp government in one of my friend's campaigns. Such players make me smash my head against the wall / can only run games where you have to kill the Dark Lord and his legions of mindless brutes who all deserve terrible fates :|

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 07, 2022, 12:30:41 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on November 07, 2022, 11:18:44 am

I once had a dark heresy campaign go up in flames. There were many reasons for its death, but one of the hilarious ones was a player who was tasked by the Inquisition to assassinate some Tau officials who were slowly working towards annexing an Imperial world. They kept confiding in the other players that the Tau were obviously hiding something sinister and evil, behind their thin facade of religious tolerance, alien pluralism, social progress and imperial federalism. Only, there was no sinister plot (from the Tau).
They had gone into this Inquisition campaign on the assumption that everything they did would be justified and all the aliens they exterminate are evil, but the first thing I told him was come into this with no assumptions, and in the Inquisition the first thing you realise everything you "know" is a lie. I had to deal with this same player who complained that my Inquisitor NPCs were not exterminating worlds, heretics and aliens on sight as "unrealistic" was now tasking them assassinating "nice" aliens.
Does he seriously think all the "heretics" deserved it too?
FML.
Though admittedly it's my fault for not seeing it coming, they also saw their actions as morally justified when defending the concentration camp government in one of my friend's campaigns. Such players make me smash my head against the wall / can only run games where you have to kill the Dark Lord and his legions of mindless brutes who all deserve terrible fates :|

And here I am with character concepts like 'is literally a religiously motivated zealot who killed someone with a car bomb for political reasons' (40k frateris militia character) or 'one of the last surviving servants of an old dark lord, looking to collect the missing relics needed to bring him back' or 'a knight who's in love with Tiamat and wants to free her from Hell, regardless of the cost to himself or others,' or 'a cultist of Baphomet who believes that the relationship between predator and prey is sacred above all else and hunts people for sport.'

Or of course the ones I've actually played like the man eating lizardfolk shaman, the bounty hunter who wanted to drag bandits back to town in manacles so they could be publicly hanged rather than just shanked in the woods and was openly in favour of burning magic users at the stake for witchcraft, various amoral scientists, sorcerers (40k ones, so chaos dabblers), a dark eldar exile, a chaos marine, an early 1900s weirdo occultist.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on November 07, 2022, 10:29:23 pm

Ha, the Dark Heresy campaign sounds like they suffered from "Designated Hero" syndrome. Everything they did was justified because they're the main characters, so it has to work out in the end and it has to turn out good.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2022, 11:06:43 am

Quote from: Grim Portent on November 07, 2022, 12:30:41 pm

And here I am with character concepts like 'is literally a religiously motivated zealot who killed someone with a car bomb for political reasons' (40k frateris militia character) or 'one of the last surviving servants of an old dark lord, looking to collect the missing relics needed to bring him back' or 'a knight who's in love with Tiamat and wants to free her from Hell, regardless of the cost to himself or others,' or 'a cultist of Baphomet who believes that the relationship between predator and prey is sacred above all else and hunts people for sport.'

Yeah these kinds of character concepts that are simple, have a clear identity and avoid novelty tend to make the most memorable characters. Because the emphasis is always on "who" they are and not "what" they are. It's why I think lots of people are scared of DnD players, because they are accustomed to making things and not chars. I'll never forget one of my player's hilarious introductions when they were asked who they were.
"I'm a tiefling!"
Followed by silence. Fortunately they grew out of that. It's another weird thing though when you have chars who can't stick to their own char's morality. Like I can ask them to make a frateris militia character who is basically the space taliban but more racist and they'll make Gandhi. But then I ask them to make a morally upright Paladin for a noble bright campaign and they give me Unit-731's deicidal cousin. I legit had one who accused and murdered people suspected of being vampires until they met an actual confirmed vampire, at which point they made friends with them. I'm so confused by this

The golden rule imo is just pick some DF values and stick by em

Quote from: Grim Portent on November 07, 2022, 12:30:41 pm

Or of course the ones I've actually played like the man eating lizardfolk shaman, the bounty hunter who wanted to drag bandits back to town in manacles so they could be publicly hanged rather than just shanked in the woods and was openly in favour of burning magic users at the stake for witchcraft, various amoral scientists, sorcerers (40k ones, so chaos dabblers), a dark eldar exile, a chaos marine, an early 1900s weirdo occultist.

I've always wanted to run a DH campaign where the Inquisitor in charge speaks in Alex Jones and Darkest Dungeon ancestor quotes. I'm interested in how you RP a DE Exile though. Chaos Marines are pretty fun and easy to RP because they often come with their own value codes already (e.g. aligned with one of the 4, worships the 4, or just uses the 4 as a means to an end). I always find it hilarious but difficult to balance an alien being a party with humans whilst still retaining that alien core... Especially since a lot of Dark Eldar values like betrayal do not mesh well with players who are not expecting betrayals

Quote from: Great Order on November 07, 2022, 10:29:23 pm

Ha, the Dark Heresy campaign sounds like they suffered from "Designated Hero" syndrome. Everything they did was justified because they're the main characters, so it has to work out in the end and it has to turn out good.

Yeah, it is an important expectation to set. I feel gutted it died because I did make it clear that they would be "another guy" amidst a sea of peoples getting things done, not the "main character" around which the world revolved. It was one of the few things my players said I did well, which I appreciate, that all of the characters had their own agendas and didn't stop existing when the players stopped interacting with them. I think games where the players are the heroes who will save the world are fun, I think games where the players are just people living in a world are fun, but getting everyone into the same boat when words fail is soul-wrenching

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 08, 2022, 11:18:05 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2022, 11:06:43 am

I've always wanted to run a DH campaign where the Inquisitor in charge speaks in Alex Jones and Darkest Dungeon ancestor quotes. I'm interested in how you RP a DE Exile though. Chaos Marines are pretty fun and easy to RP because they often come with their own value codes already (e.g. aligned with one of the 4, worships the 4, or just uses the 4 as a means to an end). I always find it hilarious but difficult to balance an alien being a party with humans whilst still retaining that alien core... Especially since a lot of Dark Eldar values like betrayal do not mesh well with players who are not expecting betrayals.

Gist of the DE idea was that he was a Trueborn who'd fled Commorragh when it became apparent that he was going to be murdered by his superiors and wasn't able to convince himself he could turn the tables. Fled to realspace, became a mercenary working for a Rogue Trader, is content with the arrangement because it provides a steady stream of victims to kill in combat. Long term plan was to try and bring the rest of the party around to the idea of working with the Dark Eldar, take the skills to navigate the webway and push things towards being slavers, smugglers and pirates with an eye towards becoming wealthy and powerful enough to return and take revenge.

Backstabbing the party was off the table unless a genuinely better option came along. Trying to play both sides of NPC factions against each other on the other hand was something he advocated for. Torture scenes were 'cut to black, gain a pain token' type affairs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2022, 11:19:29 am

Oh if it was a rogue trader campaign that does make everything a lot simpler. God rogue trader is fun. Money as a stat is something I've consistently stolen wherever applicable

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 08, 2022, 11:30:18 am

DE would work in DH as well.

In DH it's not beyond the pale that a radical inquisitor might strike a bargain with a kabal or wych cult, allowing them to prey upon some worlds or imperial guard regiments in exchange for equipment and 'specialists'. Firmly stamps the party on one side of the radical/puritan divide, but it's not an unworkable idea. There might be some treachery at points, but mutually beneficial business is not something to be cast aside without thought.

The DE would absolutely refuse to be branded with the mark of sanction, but wearing it on their helmet or something would probably be fine.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 08, 2022, 12:02:49 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on November 08, 2022, 11:30:18 am

DE would work in DH as well.

In DH it's not beyond the pale that a radical inquisitor might strike a bargain with a kabal or wych cult, allowing them to prey upon some worlds or imperial guard regiments in exchange for equipment and 'specialists'. Firmly stamps the party on one side of the radical/puritan divide, but it's not an unworkable idea. There might be some treachery at points, but mutually beneficial business is not something to be cast aside without thought.

The DE would absolutely refuse to be branded with the mark of sanction, but wearing it on their helmet or something would probably be fine.

You're not gonna believe me, but I planned on having one of the radical inquisitors they were chasing after be someone who had struck a deal with DE to raid defenceless imperial planets dry - said imperial planets being in the way of a tyranid splinter fleet. The radical inquisitor would get sick DE tech out of the deal, DE allies, whilst depriving the nids of biomass. Counterpoint: evil as hell, doesn't even try to defend the worlds

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on November 08, 2022, 06:39:07 pm

Sounds like a legitimate strategy. Also a legitimate target, which is what makes 40k feel like 40k.


I actually had an idea for a DH game where the party would unknowingly be in service to a Phaenonite, the super heretical excommunicated Inquisitors, with missions related to capturing various targets alive and securing strange technology. Sometimes in a manner that benefits the Imperium, but often for no apparent reason at all.

I had the idea of a radical but not outright traitorous Inquisitor sending a high tooled acolyte to spy on and attempt to subvert them back to the cause of the righteous, using the guidance of divination to determine that this group of halfwits were the fulcrum upon which fate was turning. Full on cybernetic assassin type of thing, ridiculous gear and bionics, but not attacking the PCs, just occasionally sabotaging their missions and assassinating their allies to stymie the efforts of the Phaenonite while other moves are made elsewhere. Idea was for him to be super annoying to try and deal with, geared up to climb walls, fit into tiny spaces, change his appearance, defy various detection methods and kill or abduct people silently.

Depending on how things went I would offer the PCs the poisoned chalice of embracing their master's ideology, getting access to all kinds of nasty warp tech, sorcerery and so on, or turning on him and trying to deal with the aftermath of that choice. Either by fleeing to pursue a life away from the Inquisition conflict, or by siding with the slowly tightening noose of Inquisitors pursuing their former employer.


Idea for phaenonite aligned missions at the start was things like 'Bring me a live Stench Beast of Strank, don't ask questions,' 'go into this polluted underhive and catch any interesting mutants,' 'Collect this package, don't look at it,' that sort of thing.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on November 09, 2022, 02:16:46 pm

All these campaign ideas lost... Like cancelled appointments in attempted gaming schedules...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 04, 2022, 08:29:48 pm

So I've had a thought in my head for a couple of days and I rather like this idea, but it's something I'll probably never get to use.


Basic idea is for a one shot/campaign intro where the initial premise is the PCs being members of a criminal group. Italian Mafia, Irish mob, something of that ilk. They're underlings, a handful of toughs, one or two up and comers who have the potential to rise in the ranks.

They are sent to find out who's distributing a drug in their gang's territory without paying a cut. Someone is intruding, and that's not good business.

So they talk to dealers, bribe some cops, talk to the pimps and prostitutes and so on. Enough stuff there to make a few sessions worth of material on just finding things out.

Things lead to a club. Alcohol, smoke, dancing. Drugs and prostitution under the table. Negotiate or force their way into the VIP floor, where drugs and whores are on full display. The boss is in the private rooms behind the VIP floor, guarded by tougher security than the normal club bouncers. Still able to be cajoled, intimidated, persuaded or distracted, but noticeably more... threatening. The private rooms are where things get really fucked up. All sorts of horrible shit being indulged in by those with the money and lack of morals. Wouldn't be surprised if most groups would start shooting people unprompted at this point.

The boss themself is in an office at the end of the private rooms. They are the center of a web of escalatingly nasty crimes, and the competitor the PCs have been sent to shake down, drive off or kill. PCs walk in on them while they talk on the phone, the audible side of the conversation being about sourcing 'merchandise' from the Border Patrol, off the books. When confronted the boss reveals he's not a human but a Lovecraftian horror, a child of Shub-Niggurath that has been masquerading in human form.

Goat head, lots of insectoid limbs, breathes a soporific vapour that fucks with your brain. Defies description in places. Really creepy and sexually aggressive regardless of shape. Is hard to kill but does die if shot, stabbed, set on fire and so on enough. Demigods are demigods, but a double barrel shotgun to the face is a double barrel shotgun to the face.

One shot ends on the PCs killing this abomination, or campaign continues with the premise of them abandoning their crime family to find out more about this... horror story they've found themselves in. Or they decide to find out how to turn the eldritch truths of the world to their own ends, that's an option too.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 06, 2022, 06:23:47 am

Ahaha reminds me of an absolute trainwreck of a campaign, that was still fun whilst it lasted a while. We had the opposite happen where there was an escalating series of eldritch hunters chasing after one of the players. Only instead of investigating further and dealing with the escalating cult shenanigens, the main player got sidetracked by one of my NPCs (I was not DM. Just played loads of NPCs), joined up as a low-ranking gang boy who washed the decks of ol' Jimmy's ship. DM found this very amusing and kept running the cult's activities in the background parallel to the growing north wharf vs south wharf smuggling rivalry, culminating in the player negotiating to unite the gangs to quietly dispose of the cult. Not because the cult was trying to end the world; but because the cult was getting the town guards pissed off and the corrupt guard Captain was telling the gangs that if the cult wasn't quietly swept away, the government would crack down on everyone suspicious - starting with the gangs.
And so the gangs united to save the world, because you can't sell tax-free liquor if the world's ended

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 14, 2022, 07:52:04 pm

I think I've mentioned before that I want to do a one shot Lovecraftian story set in a fishing village haven't I?

Well either way, one of the big hurdles to any such story is what to do with the ending. How to confront an eldritch horror without making it just a magical squid to shoot in the face?

And I've found myself looking to the Marker from Dead Space, and the Heart of the World from Darkest Dungeon for inspiration. The eldritch being isn't directly present per se, or rather it is omnipresent and cries out silently to all, but there are nodes, places where it's call can be heard more clearly. Over time these places give rise to cults, change the wildlife and generally make things go all wrong.

You can't destroy it, not completely. You can kill the maddened priests, scatter the congregation, burn back the corruption and smash the structures through which the call is amplified, but it's still there, and it will grow back in time. A coral reef takes time to heal when broken, but it heals all the same.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on December 14, 2022, 09:10:44 pm

Or they can kill it, but it costs them something important. Their sanity, their soul, each other?

Personally I want to throw some Mr Eaten type stuff at my players one time. Some event happens that causes them to steadily lose their minds to better fit the Abomination's goals (Which in the Mr Eaten example is cannibalism, but I could make it anything). Give them as much of an ability to roleplay it out instead of me taking control of the PCs except when they utterly lose it. Maybe have the campaign be them either willingly becoming its servants or choosing to fight off the curse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on December 15, 2022, 04:01:57 am

I once listened to a dnd podcast about a city where stuff was going down. It had a mine/quarry nearby where mystic stuff was happening. It had something to do with demons. I wasn't paying too much attention, the podcast wad mostly the three players casually faffing about and doing the usual dnd things like starting fights that didn't need to be fights and having giant ferrets for pets and other lolrandom things.

Anyway long story short some guys were trying to bring the demon back or something and it turns out that the land, the soil, the bedrock so to speak, was the demon. And they had been mining it for hundreds of years. The city was built out of it. And suddenly everything was alive.

And you know, that came off as a huge twist in the mood and feeling of the show and really made me pay attention again (poor GM xD ). And I still think that was really cool.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 15, 2022, 09:43:12 am

Or you could spend a whole grueling quest fighting against something insurmountable only for the government to show up and turn the eldritch god into a battery.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on December 15, 2022, 10:33:21 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 15, 2022, 09:43:12 am

Or you could spend a whole grueling quest fighting against something insurmountable only for the government to show up and turn the eldritch god into a battery.

Gubmint can be a good source of mundane horror in these settings… there’s a bit of that in the Southern Reach trilogy, where the Anthropocene horror entity/zone is under investigation by an organisation controlled by a group only known as Central. Works quite well as cosmic horror often uses a kind of literalness or mundanity (the Old Ones are beyond comprehension but sometimes you just encounter literal giant piles of sea-flesh) alongside the eldritch stuff.

Or if you want to preserve the specialness of the cosmic entity, maybe just have the government be the ones poking around in it, perhaps even forcing it on the village Tuskegee/MKUltra style. Blood borne sort of did that, but hey. Final boss would be some kind of arcane special ops team, and afterwards the entity is just… still there. It never initiated any of it, it was just humans seeing what happened if they exposed people to the eldritch truth.

Anyhow, that’s enough rambling from me. Do tell us how it goes if you run it, Portent!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on December 15, 2022, 10:37:25 am

Quote from: NJW2000 on December 15, 2022, 10:33:21 am

Or if you want to preserve the specialness of the cosmic entity, maybe just have the government be the ones poking around in it, perhaps even forcing it on the village Tuskegee/MKUltra style. Blood borne sort of did that, but hey.

A corpse... should be left well alone.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on December 17, 2022, 01:37:54 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 15, 2022, 10:37:25 am

Quote from: NJW2000 on December 15, 2022, 10:33:21 am

Or if you want to preserve the specialness of the cosmic entity, maybe just have the government be the ones poking around in it, perhaps even forcing it on the village Tuskegee/MKUltra style. Blood borne sort of did that, but hey.

A corpse... should be left well alone.

But necromancy.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on December 17, 2022, 03:24:52 am

Quote from: Horizon on December 17, 2022, 01:37:54 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on December 15, 2022, 10:37:25 am

Quote from: NJW2000 on December 15, 2022, 10:33:21 am

Or if you want to preserve the specialness of the cosmic entity, maybe just have the government be the ones poking around in it, perhaps even forcing it on the village Tuskegee/MKUltra style. Blood borne sort of did that, but hey.

A corpse... should be left well alone.

But necromancy.

But what about scientific experimentation?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 17, 2022, 09:21:06 am

Funnily enough I do have an idea for a Byrgenwerth scholar type NPC, who's there to pursue the eldritch phenomena for selfish goals.

One set piece I have in mind is the reveal of their true nature being them cutting open someone's head (while they are strapped into a chair and fully conscious) to check if their brain has been altered. Lots of people have gone missing in the town over the past few years, a lot of them lost to eldritch phenomena, others abducted and dissected by a clandestine doctor trying to study the growing corruption.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Rolan7 on December 26, 2022, 10:29:48 am

Quote from: Bad DND Advice @nat1advice

DnD advice: At a loss for a last-minute holiday gift for your players? Pick them up a book they've never read. I'm getting each of my players one titled "Player's Handbook."

https://twitter.com/nat1advice/status/1473329931727749126

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Grim Portent on December 27, 2022, 05:00:43 pm

I find myself wanting to play a Phyrexian PC some time.

A missionary sent from New Phyrexia via experimental magitech, to spread the good word of the Machine Orthodoxy on a new world.

Not malevolent per se, more just indiferent to morality and convinced that becoming Compleat is the best thing that can happen to anyone, and that unifying the world under Phyrexia will end all it's suffering. Lacking numbers, or large quantities of phyrexian oil, the character is reduced to actually preaching and convincing people to submit to infection through rhetoric and deed, in hopes of creating more phyrexians to further the cause and give the infection a chance to take root.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Vector on December 27, 2022, 05:21:06 pm

I'm strongly considering learning the Coyote and Crow system. Anyone else heard of it? I have the rulebook but haven't read it yet, I guess that's the first step.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Persus13 on December 27, 2022, 05:32:13 pm

I'm in a similar boat. Got the Core Rulebook on a sale awhile ago, but haven't been invested enough to read the whole thing yet. A sci-fi setting based on a utopian futuristic version of Native American cultures sounded interesting enough on a broader scale, but when I skimmed a few pages I didn't see something smaller scale to hook me deeper.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 03, 2023, 08:22:13 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on December 26, 2022, 10:29:48 am

Quote from: Bad DND Advice @nat1advice

DnD advice: At a loss for a last-minute holiday gift for your players? Pick them up a book they've never read. I'm getting each of my players one titled "Player's Handbook."

https://twitter.com/nat1advice/status/1473329931727749126

This one wounds on a philosophical level

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: MaximumZero on January 03, 2023, 11:42:50 am

I'm finally getting to play in a campaign again. It's been years since I wasn't DM. I will admit, though, to missing being at an actual table. Discord is wonderful, but just not the same.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: delphonso on January 03, 2023, 08:14:15 pm

Last night was the final session of a nine month long campaign. Whew, feels good to actually finish a story for once.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 06, 2023, 01:54:52 am

Apropos nothing, but I'm making a goblin artificer for a level 3 one-shot and I'm working on what infusions to bring. Considered alchemy jug, but figured this character is probably a bit eccentric™ and so I was thinking of what kind of stupid command words would be associated with the different fluids available.

Then it struck me that "Key lime" is a pretty good fit for acid, and that's really all I came here to share.

Quote from: MaximumZero on January 03, 2023, 11:42:50 am

I'm finally getting to play in a campaign again. It's been years since I wasn't DM. I will admit, though, to missing being at an actual table. Discord is wonderful, but just not the same.

Woohoo! Now to purge your mind of all DM-ness and just enjoy the brainless zen of being an adventurer!

Quote from: delphonso on January 03, 2023, 08:14:15 pm

Last night was the final session of a nine month long campaign. Whew, feels good to actually finish a story for once.

The main group I've been playing with recently just wrapped up a months-long arc as well, but... Seeing as I've only been a "dedicated guest" player with them for like four sessions, I can't say it had quite the same weight for me personally :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 06, 2023, 07:23:36 am

You all hear about the new OGL update? Hasbro is trying to make the 1.0 obsolete using an update clause to declare the 1.0 no longer authorised, in an impressive move of legal quantum abrogation which probably is illegal but the courts will decide most like

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Vector on January 07, 2023, 09:11:35 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 27, 2022, 05:32:13 pm

I'm in a similar boat. Got the Core Rulebook on a sale awhile ago, but haven't been invested enough to read the whole thing yet. A sci-fi setting based on a utopian futuristic version of Native American cultures sounded interesting enough on a broader scale, but when I skimmed a few pages I didn't see something smaller scale to hook me deeper.

They have the Tales of the Free Lands coming out soon and some tie-in novels and stuff. I think that should help in terms of understanding what to do.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 08, 2023, 05:45:06 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on January 06, 2023, 07:23:36 am

You all hear about the new OGL update? Hasbro is trying to make the 1.0 obsolete using an update clause to declare the 1.0 no longer authorised, in an impressive move of legal quantum abrogation which probably is illegal but the courts will decide most like

Finally all my dnd wiki entries will become official content

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2023, 07:31:21 am

Quote from: scriver on January 08, 2023, 05:45:06 am

Finally all my dnd wiki entries will become official content

the 5e furry class is now canon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on January 12, 2023, 12:26:42 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on January 12, 2023, 07:31:21 am

Quote from: scriver on January 08, 2023, 05:45:06 am

Finally all my dnd wiki entries will become official content

the 5e furry class is now canon

I cast Yiff!



Considering a goblin armorer for a level 3 one-shot where we've been contracted to explore some ruins for historically important artifacts. He's been hired on as a science specialist, due to a misunderstanding when he declared that he specialized in "shinies". Probably. Any good explanations for why he's missing an arm? So far all I've got for options is "Unspecified sandwich incident", but feel like that's a bit on the nose.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 13, 2023, 01:25:44 pm

OGL development: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/10ay63m/dnd_beyond_an_update_on_the_open_game_license_ogl/

Immediate edit: Maybe I should have also linked the Dnd Beyond article (https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl) and not just the reddit thread

So it seems to me what they're basically saying is:
"We wanted to"
1, Keep out the nazis. Everyone agrees that the nazis are bad, that's why they are our enemy. Don't you want us to fight the nazis? We need control of and the ability to monetise your content to fight the nazis. If you disagree with this point you are clearly a nazi
2. Prevent NFTs! Since our feelers for MTG nfts were met with negativity and the public opinion has turned against them in general, we should mention them here because they are relevant to the times or something and clearly we need to control your content to prevent you from making NFTs out of our already protected IPs and trademarks
3. Make sure it is you, the fan, the individual, the creator, the maverick, and not those nasty Big RPG corpos that make money off of our OGL. This is totally not an attempt to make sure that, should you ever happen into offshooting off DnD into your own fame like those Nasties Paizo and Critical Role did, we would be able to stop you and reap all the economic and promotional benefit from your creativity, work, and expenses.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 14, 2023, 08:48:32 am

This reeks of the same copium Blizard-Activision did over the WC3 editor producing DOTA II. "Yes we know you made this, yes we know we did nothing, so how can we make you pay anyways?"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: McTraveller on January 14, 2023, 11:27:30 am

It's the inherent drawback of the entire concept of intellectual property.

Sure there are benefits to the concept, but it grants massive opportunity for abuse.

This is especially true for copyright-style IP, because "derivative works" is an oddity - the new works are not modifying or even incorporating an instance of existing works - they are merely "based on" other works.  This is different even from patent stuff, where at least there's an argument that if you make a widget that uses patent material, you do have an "instance" of the patent material in each instance of the widget.

But if I have a story about a character named Rodrigo, and someone else makes a story about 'what if Rodrigo had this adventure...' - while I understand this is a legally derivative work, it's not a physically derivative work; the test should be, "if the potentially derivative work can exist without the "parent" work existing at all, or if the "parent" work can be substituted out for an alternate implementation (for the "software library" or "modular component" case), the work isn't derivative."

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on January 14, 2023, 12:06:13 pm

All works are derivative. Copyright just favors less explicitly derivative works. ;p

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 14, 2023, 01:07:34 pm

Inb4 the entirety of Arthurian legend from the 21st century to the first celtic bards gets erased because it isn't monetisable enough

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Robsoie on January 14, 2023, 01:30:38 pm

I was going to ask what's going to happen with OSRIC (https://www.osricrpg.com/index.php), but in the article i also noticed

Quote

Content already released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected.

and fortunately OSRIC (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/s1.html)

Quote

Terms used herein are as defined in the OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0a

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 14, 2023, 01:45:28 pm

3.5 was the golden age of D&D...And waaaay too many books but hell I got to play a Necromancer with an ACTUAL repetoire(?) of necromancy spells from UA Necromancy and David Cooks Sword & Sorcery splatbooks. I miss it, ngl it was fun.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 15, 2023, 12:24:18 am

Okay ye this OGL nonsense is bs

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 18, 2023, 08:12:05 am

Quote from: Horizon on January 15, 2023, 12:24:18 am

Okay ye this OGL nonsense is bs

Now Hasbro lost >40,000 subscribers after news was leaked they were planning to do a >$30 subscription service

You know what your tabletop needs?

DLC

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Horizon on January 18, 2023, 09:40:11 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on January 18, 2023, 08:12:05 am

Quote from: Horizon on January 15, 2023, 12:24:18 am

Okay ye this OGL nonsense is bs

Now Hasbro lost >40,000 subscribers after news was leaked they were planning to do a >$30 subscription service

You know what your tabletop needs?

DLC

We already had that in 3.5.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: King Zultan on January 19, 2023, 01:52:03 am

Aren't most expansions to tabletop games kind of like DLC?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on January 19, 2023, 02:59:48 am

I believe LW probably didn't mean DLC per se but more games-as-service or whatever it's called.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on February 03, 2023, 06:40:34 pm

I've been running the same homebrew setting for a good number of years now (Since 2018, I think), and while I've learned a fair bit from it I think I'd like to make a new one. I've got the basic "Big historical thing that happened" idea down, but I'd like to crowdsource ideas and improvements.

Some two-and-a-half-ish centuries ago, all the various nations came together for a collaborative project - Constraining high level adventurers. A common pattern would occur before this: Adventurers go out, adventurers become powerful, adventurers carve out a new kingdom or overthrow one of them because they're powerful enough to do that. The rulers (Either descendents of old high level parties or high level parties themselves) eventually got wise and created a system together which consisted of two parts.

1) The nations would put high level adventurers into a pseudo-retirement. In reality they were being kept on a payroll with the ability to muck about a bit where they wanted so long as they kept out of inter and intranational politics and importantly, they could be called upon by the nation. This relegated them to a similar role as nuclear weapons in our world. Nobody would actually use them because as soon as one nation did, every other nation would set them loose and things would go insane pretty promptly.
2) Those unwilling to be retired would be forced into an NGO that would enforce neutrality in all political matters via use of other high level adventurers. This allowed governments to hire the adventurers for major threats like hobgoblin armies, dragons and such without risking their own strategic adventurers.

In reality the system was far from perfect. Political machinations would happen, occasionally an adventurer would get somewhere with their ambitions, but on the whole the system held for almost two centuries. The ever-fragmenting nation states started pulling themselves together into larger polities and there was a small golden age of relative peace and societal and technological advancement.

But nothing lasts forever. While some adventurers benefited from the arrangement, others chafed under it, and eventually a conspiracy was formed among them. Nobody's sure who started it, they worked to ensure their name would never see the light of day for fear of retaliation, but a huge number of adventurers engaged in a simultaneous strike across national lines almost two centuries after the inception of the treaties. The retired adventurers who weren't in on the conspiracy were ambushed and killed, and heads of state and major government officials were assassinated in a massive decapitation action. The neutral adventurers were left alone, for now.

The kingdoms and empires that had formed shattered completely and the conspirators picked on the remains. Masses of city states and micro-kingdoms sprung up everywhere. While ostensibly the conspirators were working together, in reality they descended back into the old squabbles and disputes. However, rather than a slow roiling boil of invasions and uprisings as it was in the old days, this was a whole two centuries of adventuring parties engaging in this simultaneously. On top of that, in the relative peace of that time trade had built up.

The known world descended into chaos. Famines and disease were rampant, wars were near-constant as the new power-hungry rulers fought to expand their states, and monsters and other horrors rapidly spread through the striken lands.

The adventurers who had remained neutral quickly found themselves being targeted too. They were faced with a choice: Join a side or be exterminated as a potential threat to the new kingdoms.

In the modern day, things haven't improved much. While the roaring flames of the overthrow have died, there's still plenty of embers smouldering away. Wars flare up on a frequent basis over relatively minor slights, alliances are born and die constantly, famine still frequently stalks the land, and vast swathes of previously-civilised territory has been lost to encroaching monsters, extraplanar entities, and other beasts, or lost through simple depopulation.
Adventurers are common due to the sheer amount of work available, though those that become strong enough are still faced with a sign-up-or-die choice sooner or later.



Since this is the setting I'd need to think of any actual campaigns to come up with, but any ideas or feedback would be welcome.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 04, 2023, 05:52:56 am

I always thought adventurers were the usual sources of troublemakers in history: well connected, ambitious young ones with lots of talent and a disregard for their own personal safety and comfort, give or take the exceptional wizened wizard or witch with no sense of right and wrong. What you're suggesting though does sound a lot like the classic Roman or Chinese problem of "ah fuck I have this really popular and talented commander and I don't want him to overthrow the government and start a new dynasty how the fuck do I make him retire" complete with the "I'm retired but not really lmao" conspiracy issue. All in all it depends on what kind of feel you want for your setting. Lawless feudal ones where adventurers just set up their own kingdoms and care more about who can stop them vs who will let them versus ones with a centralised imperial bureaucracy where your PCs will face problems which can't just be resolved by hitting it really hard with an axe, what kind of game are you trying to run with it?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on February 04, 2023, 07:08:01 am

I'm working with the setting right now rather than a campaign, but the thing that comes to mind is the players probably starting off as a bog standard "go out kill bandits level up" style of thing, probably as members of an adventurer's guild, and then once they get powerful and connected enough, drive them to try and restore some semblance of peace. The situation's too big for one party to recreate a golden age, but ending the current situation of everything being absolute dogshit would help. Or at least successfully carving out a relatively stable realm if that proves too much. The basic idea of the setting is that polities are rising, falling, splitting, being subsumed and so on near-constantly because there's just too many high level adventurers out there trying to claw their ways to the top of the heap. In theory given a century or so the situation would return to being similar to the pre-golden age, albeit with far smaller populations and smaller pockets of civilisation, due to the adventurericide going on, but in the here and now everything's hellish for the common man.

And I'd agree that adventurers have been a pain for a lot of rulers in real life, the thing about D&D though is the ability for them to do more than just become popular or good political manoeuvrers. A high level party can wreak havoc without the support of an army or nation behind them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: NJW2000 on February 04, 2023, 08:33:22 am

Interesting... how are you you handling the mechanics interacting with the narrative in that way?

Or to put the question more clearly:

Having that many high level parties around makes a lot of sense, given D&D's system and how relatively easily groups of near nobody PCs can eventually become walking superweapons, but it's fairly unusual to explicitly acknowledge that in a D&D setting. It's usually one rule for the players and another for everyone else, so you can have a narrative about an important fellowship of six oddballs and outcasts saving the kingdom or similar.

How do you explain the weirdness of these high level adventurers frequently occurring? Are the characters going to be aware of the system, and literally talk about levels and quests and so forth? Are you going to just use the standard in-narrative logic D&D gives for increasing player power? Or is there going to be a particular narrative conceit (like great arcane spirits motivating particular individuals, gods playing dice with the world, w/e) that explains why individuals can get insanely powerful but you don't have armies of supersoldiers?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on February 04, 2023, 11:06:03 am

Not specifically levels. They'll be acknowledged as powerful adventurers/parties, but that terminology won't be used. Quest/mission/whatever is more of a specific type of job I guess, so that terminology can be used.

The armies-of-supersoldiers thing more boils down to adventuring being far from a job for everyone. There's plenty of people motivated enough to become adventurers, but not enough to be fielding whole armies. Dedicated soldiers will be pretty good combatants, but the majority of the armies will consist of peasant levies with a professional core and maybe some mid-high level adventuring parties either mixed in or working as a sort of medieval spec-ops. In all likelihood these adventurers would be mercenaries, in essence. Also adventuring has a fairly high attrition rate, especially before anyone in the party is trained enough to resurrect people, so even if there's a lot of adventurers out there the number of high level adventurers will be a good bit smaller than the number of low-level ones. And with the high level parties seeing other high level parties as threats, there's a fairly good chance of you being splattered once you're getting too powerful. The best place to be is probably around level 10. Powerful enough to survive lesser foes, not so powerful to attract the attention of those above your station.

The gods are basically sealed away. In essence they were the first heroes, tapped into a great cosmic power, and used it all up ascending to godhood. After the first act of deicide by an extraordinarily powerful and ambitious adventurer (mixed with a good chunk of complacency and arrogance on the behalf of the gods), they decided to separate themselves from the world almost entirely to prevent this fate happening to them too. Now they can't act on the material plane directly, instead relying on artefacts, religious institutions and their agents such as clerics. Occasionally someone or a party are commanded to create their own realms, but most of the time the gods are focused on maintaining and spreading their religions through other means so as to acquire even greater power from belief.
To boil it down, you've got the various gods and one Usurper-God. The gods, being derived from the mortal races, are still ultimately prone to the same problems any human, tiefling, dragonborn etc. is despite their expanded consciousnesses and incredible power.

On that note as well, the afterlife is a natural part of the world rather than the domain of any particular god.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 11, 2023, 03:04:30 pm

So... Under basic rules, food and water are kinda meaningless in 5e. Sure, there are some variant rules for actually tracking the stuff, but those rules are hamfisted at best and aggravating, inconsequential bookkeeping at worst. In all my experience barring one session of one campaign, food and drink have simply been ignored except for the occasional roleplaying purposes.

I've found myself wondering recently if there's potentially some merit to merging food and drink into the resting mechanics. A character needs to consume a pound/serving of food and a pint of water during a short rest in order to benefit from it, and double that for a long rest.

It's still fairly inconsequential given how easy it is to come by food if you actually try to (unless you get into tweaking those sources as well, which might be a good idea honestly), but it does put just that little tax on resting so it becomes a bit more of an evaluation than the abstract "Will the DM let us". The total consumption is still laughably tiny compared to what a person should be consuming, but realism isn't what I'm shooting for here. It's gameplay.


There's definitely balance to be worked out, as far as food sources and amounts are concerned, but I feel like there's the glimmer of an idea here that could potentially add an extra layer of both RP and mechanics to resting without increasing bookkeeping as much as trying to keep track of a total daily intake. You have set, specific moments where you try to take a short or long rest; making it easier to remember to involve food and putting a minor restriction on it beyond just time/perceived DM allowance. And, in lean times, certain characters are better at skipping a rest (and thereby saving a meal) given their resource expenditure. This doesn't mean much beyond just tying in somewhat. I've gone through several short rests where I had nothing to do and nothing to gain from resting despite the rest of the party needing it, and the thought that I'm saving a portion of resting resources by not needing one would probably make me feel like I'm still contributing, sorta.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: JoshuaFH on February 11, 2023, 04:34:38 pm

There is the Chef feat, which gives you and several other characters some extra hp during a short rest, and some treats that give a tiny amount of free temp hp; but other than that there isn't really any great benefit to eating, RAW. I find that odd, as The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings place frequent and heavy emphasis on eating and food; when the characters aren't eating, they're talking about food, how delicious it would be to have some taters, rejoicing when they get some rabbit to make stew, and one of the lowkey best items they get from Galadriel is some Elven lembas, which is delicious and filling and never goes bad. Gollum's inhuman nature is reinforced by the fact that he hand-catches and eats raw fish. The point is, DnD aped a lot from Tolkien, but not his love of frequent and delicious snack breaks; as is evident in the fact that apparently food is just a synonym for murdering-fuel, and isn't something for your characters to actually enjoy or look forward to.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 11, 2023, 05:25:58 pm

I think, though I'm not actually particularly familiar with the system, that that's actually kind of a thing in Spellbound Kingdoms... But primarily as part of a larger general focus on enjoyment and merrymaking having an effect on your character's performance. But yeah, in 5e there's really not much put into it unless the players and DM specifically set out to make a scene about it. But even then it's just background fluff, and mechanically there's no difference between a dry field ration and a fresh hot meal (aside from one day's ration weighing 2 pounds, when the game explicitly states that a character needs 1 pound of food a day... Hmmm)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 11, 2023, 05:51:02 pm

What I was considering for making food important in 5E was using the rule variant where 8 hours is a short rest and 7 days is a long rest, which makes hit dice a more scarce and valuable resource. Then, eating better food will regain hit dice. Possibly other benefits as well for high quality food, letting you have more hit dice than your maximum or passive buffs and such.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Great Order on February 11, 2023, 06:15:24 pm

The furthest I've looked into food stuff was when I was considering running a game where food would be scarce. I didn't find any official rules on starvation, but I did find one that was, I think, you get CON modifier days for "free" (minimum of 1) before starvation sets in. Every two days you get a level of exhaustion that can only be removed by an equal number of days fully fed.

Otherwise I've basically ignored it. I did like Pathfinder 1e having the specialised rations that add extra bonuses after eating them for so long but they're more expensive in turn. Don't know if that's a feature from 3e they ported over or what.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 12, 2023, 04:20:09 am

Quote from: Great Order on February 11, 2023, 06:15:24 pm

The furthest I've looked into food stuff was when I was considering running a game where food would be scarce. I didn't find any official rules on starvation, but I did find one that was, I think, you get CON modifier days for "free" (minimum of 1) before starvation sets in. Every two days you get a level of exhaustion that can only be removed by an equal number of days fully fed.

Otherwise I've basically ignored it. I did like Pathfinder 1e having the specialised rations that add extra bonuses after eating them for so long but they're more expensive in turn. Don't know if that's a feature from 3e they ported over or what.

5e does have official starvation mechanics, they're just a bit... Silly. Very close to what you just described, except the PHB rules are:

Quote

A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a charcter automatically suffers one level of exhaustion. A normal day of eating resets the count of days without food to zero.

You can also eat half rations, wherein each passing day only counts as 1/2 a day of starvation.

...which is pointless, because you'll still end up eating more food than if you just do the hip, trendy, intermittent fasting diet plan of only eating a pound of food once every fourth day.


Naturally, this is a wildly insufficient amount of food, even if you're eating the "full meal" of one pound every day. Hilariously, the recommendations for water are that a character needs to drink a gallon of water every day or risk/suffer exhaustion levels... Which is actually higher than the real-world recommendation for intake (for laymen, anyways. I think we can assume adventurers have slightly more athletic/demanding lifestyles, which of course just makes the food requirements seem even sillier).

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 12, 2023, 06:31:56 am

Quote from: JoshuaFH on February 11, 2023, 04:34:38 pm

I find that odd, as The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings place frequent and heavy emphasis on eating and food; when the characters aren't eating, they're talking about food, how delicious it would be to have some taters, rejoicing when they get some rabbit to make stew, and one of the lowkey best items they get from Galadriel is some Elven lembas, which is delicious and filling and never goes bad.

People reach a lot trying to make LotR be about Tolkien's WW1 experience, but this is where the marks left by army life really shines through his writing

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: GiglameshDespair on February 12, 2023, 07:19:28 am

Quote from: Egan_BW on February 11, 2023, 05:51:02 pm

What I was considering for making food important in 5E was using the rule variant where 8 hours is a short rest and 7 days is a long rest, which makes hit dice a more scarce and valuable resource. Then, eating better food will regain hit dice. Possibly other benefits as well for high quality food, letting you have more hit dice than your maximum or passive buffs and such.

Perhaps you could wind it into a more general quality of rest sort of thing.
A low quality rest - squatting on a battlefield gnawing raw horsemeat - restores very little and only lets you spend one guy die or whatever.

A good quality short rest, with proper food in a place warm and dry and comfortable - does more.

You could have something similar with long rests, where being wined and dined in a luxury hotel serves better than a night in a ditch.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 26, 2023, 05:55:30 pm

Yeah, was thinking along those lines as well, but the issue there is that it quickly becomes a lot more complicated and bogged down in minutiae, in my opinion... While there is definitely a difference between "roughing it" and more luxurious accommodations, I feel like putting extra nitty gritty mechanics into defining different levels of rest quality could easily get hung up on the details and even be punishing for adventurers going out and, well, adventuring.

I absolutely maintain that there's always some roleplay value to finally getting a night in a posh tavern after weeks out in the wilds, and while it certainly would be cool to have some kind of extra bonus for doing that contra "getting by", I think rigid rules would end up getting more in the way there than with a more binary food/no food mechanic. Plus, for more comfortable (and likely expensive) conditions, you can probably just award inspiration as the cherry on top for kicking back.


In other news, more mechanical build nonsense: MotM Bugbear PCs have a Surprise Attack ability worded thusly:

Quote

If you hit a creature with an attack roll, the creature takes an extra 2d6 damage if it hasn’t taken a turn yet in the current combat.

Note the lack of specification on this needing to be a ranged or melee attack, or even a weapon attack... And also no qualifications for only using this once a turn/target.

This is going to be a variation of my "most annoying character to play next to" build, but this time it's actually a lot more capable of dealing some actual damage.


Bugbear Clockwork Sorcerer 15/Assassin 3/Fighter 2

Clockwork 14 gives the absolutely nonsense Trance of Order ability, which lets you use a bonus action to enter the trance for 1 minute, wherein all saves, skill checks and attack rolls will count die rolls of 9 or lower as a 10. Assassin give you advantage against anything that hasn't taken a turn yet in combat, while also autocritting if you manage to surprise something. Fighter does action surge stuff.

So we enter combat, bonus action trance, then spend our two highest spell slots on Scorching Ray by casting and then surging to cast again. With an 8th and 7th slot, that's 17 rays.

17 rays, each doing 2d6 damage, plus 2d6 more thanks to Surprise Attack RAW working on spell attacks too for some ridiculous reason. Minimum attack roll of 10+modifiers, which with 20 CHA and level 20 means a minimum total of 21, before taking into account other bonuses like enhanced spell focus items. Plus they've all got advantage, which means a better chance of critting for 8d6 damage. And, of course, if you somehow manage to surprise an enemy then every beam autocrits. For 8d6. 17 times.

Again, this all hinges on not coming in dead last in initiative with your wimpy nerdling DEX, and also not going up against something magic immune/invuln globed etc... But, really, this is still just a thought experiment for throwing an obscene amount of dice on the table at once.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 26, 2023, 06:16:07 pm

I think even action surge won't let you cast more than one leveled spell on your turn?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Kagus on February 26, 2023, 07:20:10 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on February 26, 2023, 06:16:07 pm

I think even action surge won't let you cast more than one leveled spell on your turn?

The rule is, specifically, using a spell with a cast time of 1 bonus action means you cannot cast anything other than cantrips until the end of your turn. There's actually no rule about leveled spells or not, it's just bonus action casting.

This also means that if you use the quicken metamagic to cast a cantrip as a bonus action, you cannot cast a leveled spell with your action. However, if you quicken the leveled spell to use a bonus action, you may use your action to cast the cantrip. This also, notably, prevents you from casting reaction-spells until the end of that turn.

Action Surge, giving you an additional fully full action, is specifically the way of circumventing that restriction and is the go-to method of casting two leveled spells in a turn (or three, since it doesn't preclude casting something as a reaction either). And since Clockwork Soul's trance ability is an ability and not a spell, it doesn't interfere with any of that (in addition to not being able to be dispelled/counterspelled, as if it wasn't nonsense enough as it was). Because yeah, if you use a bonus action to cast a spell, then action surge, you'd only be able to cast cantrips with both those main actions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: scriver on February 26, 2023, 07:23:27 pm

No, that's a common homerule/rules mixup. The only rule that limits spell casting per turn -- from a very, very RAW perspective that is -- is if you cast a spell with a bonus action; then, you can only cast a cantrip with your main action. I'd agree entirely with you that this ruling seems to imply a logic of being limited to one spell per turn, but there's no actual rule saying so in itself.

This is also what makes it possible to Counterspell an enemy mage that's Counterspelling your spell, because Counterspell is a reaction action.

Godddammit Kagus, you ninja. I know I shouldn't have stopped to look up Counterspell and War Mage perk mechanics before posting

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: Egan_BW on February 26, 2023, 07:40:48 pm

Okay well that's dumb if I'm GM you can cast one leveled spell on your turn (but no limit per round so go wild on reactions)
(and the counterspelling a counterspell would be casting another spell while it's still your turn so that handles that)
(might just let action surge cheat cuz it's cool though)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: The Barren Snowflake Wastes
Post by: JoshuaFH on February 26, 2023, 10:48:21 pm

The only one leveled spell per turn (though specifically if it is cast with your bonus action) doesn't seem like intentional balancing on WOTC's part, but rather just another byproduct of them never thinking through what they actually intend on saying, and then when the ruling is actually sloppy and unintuitive they refuse to errata it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: NullForceOmega on April 24, 2023, 02:33:01 pm

I had an amusing thought this past weekend, inspired by a random Youtube recommended video.  I'm now working up a RIFTS campaign centered around a black ops unit of the Coalition States based on the antagonists of the '80s cartoon (and toy line) GI-JOE.

It could be really stupid or really terrifying, depending on personal feelings on Cobra.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 23, 2023, 09:47:07 am

Wew. Finally got back into running a Dark Heresy oneshot after getting some inspiration from stuff Duuvian sent me.

I gave my players two elite Sororitas characters serving under an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor. Sister Blackgate and Sister Myxodema (I am told Myxodema was the name of a rare disease my player was struggling to memorise for a medical exam) were equipped with incendiary grenades, bolters with incendiary rounds and underslung single-shot flamers to keep in the theme of BURNING. Supporting them were two stormtroopers equipped with melta-guns and two stormtroopers with shock mauls and storm shields, as well as a rhino transport vehicle.

They were stationed on a world called Erebuni, a world dominated by a single hive city - with the remaining portions of the planet consisting of red, dusty and toxic wastes or verdant feudal kingdoms with primitive levels of technology (flintlocks being the best weapons they have) but produce a lot of raw materials and foodstuffs for the hive. Their boss, the Ordo Hereticus inquisitor, is busy dealing with intrigues within the Hive personally (the world is held in various degrees by the Admiralty, the Administratum, the Ecclesiarchy, cartels, the Mechanicus and the noble houses), and the Inquisitor is certain that there is another Inquisitor on the planet who is undermining the planet's defences on purpose for reasons yet unknown. Yet it has come to his attention that someone from the feudal kingdoms is claiming to be a miracle healer, with his power coming from the Emperor himself.

Because he's busy, he sends the sisters to go deal with the healer. The inquisitor suspects the healer is either a heretic (falsely claiming the Emperor's power) or a witch (using unsanctioned psyker biomancy to heal others), so either way they must investigate and kill/capture the target. He sends the sisters to meet with a local Sheriff from the hamlet where the miracle healer is said to dwell. The sheriff salutes them and gets anxiously interrogated, revealing the healer is called Galen and practises his healing arts in a local copse nearby. He's a hermit who's probably not from the hive. The sheriff insists that in the hamlet of Goodsprings they're Emperor-fearing folk and there're no heretics to be found here, and Galen's no heretic either. They say some prayers for the sheriff's soul and then promptly execute him for harbouring a heretic.

They go one step further and vox in an artillery barrage on the copse wood, whilst using their Rhino and Titan support to isolate the hamlet and begin purging it too. When they discover a group of survivors escaped into two nearby towns, after verifying there wouldn't be any political consequences serious enough to bother their boss, they call in an orbital lance strike on the two nearby towns. However they get into an argument with Captain Tacitus who tells them plainly that he's not going to waste macrocannon shells glassing empty farmlands and if they want to catch any stragglers they better do their job and catch them themselves. So they mobilise the PDF with stormtrooper oversight and whilst the PDF are disappointing, they do catch Galen and execute him. Autopsies on bodies recovered from the copse also confirm they were perfectly healthy and had been healed with probable biomancy.

We ended up finishing one hour early because of their decisive action. I was looking forward to running a fight between hordes of poorly-armed but highly motivated militia vs a vastly outnumbered but elite fighting force, but they acted too decisively with such overwhelming force. I had honestly not expected them to take the "cauterising approach" as when I let them make their own characters they tend to make do-gooders who protect everyone - in this case there was so much collateral damage the only survivors were four children they kidnapped to be inducted into the schola system. It led to one of the coldest and most 40k moments where one of the kids' fathers aimed a flintlock pistol at one of the sisters and fired.

It was heartwarming IRL when we all watched the dice fall and hoped this NPC father would be able to do -something-, some act of defiance in the face of the unfairness of the world. He rolled to hit; he got a resounding three degrees of success. He rolled for damage... There was a very small chance he might be able to do something, to draw blood, to not go out without a fight. He failed to do any damage at all. The shot was stopped cleanly by their power armour. Sister Myxodema assusred him his child would be safe with them before one of the stormtroopers broke his leg with a swipe of his maul. In the end, the hamlet was crushed underfoot by warhound titans or swept away by megabolter fire.

Now I thought it would be hilarious if they did all that and it turned out Galen was just some chemist giving everyone aspirin or some swindler selling snake oil for clout and all those dead innocents were for nothing, but I had written down in my notes Galen was a psyker with a martyr complex who took people's illnesses and put them into his own body and I don't quantum ogre players (my players have complained before about another GM who did this - everyone they spared turned out to be hideously evil, everyone they killed turned out to be a misunderstood hero and it got old quickly). The players here used in-game information and in-character priorities to weigh up the costs and they wiped out two towns and a hamlet with the appropriate level of "emotional weight," it felt like a proper Ordo Hereticus purging and not a murderhobo escapade.

I'm trying to figure out now what'd be the most satisfying continuation of "the purging of Goodsprings" that doesn't cheapen the moral cost of what they did. E.g. I'm not bringing Galen back, if they think one dead psyker demagogue is worth the innocent lives of three towns, the psyker's staying dead. But I could for example have a preacher claiming to be Galen back from the dead, and I think that would be an interesting and natural continuation. Or I could just have it be an ever-present thing the feudal Kingdoms are aware of - falling into fear, superstition and witchhunts to escape the Inquisition's wrath whilst the Inquisitorial retinue focuses on the xenos threats & the rival inquisitor weakening the planet from within. I kinda prefer the latter since it'll be nice from a tactical point of view to pit the players against a well-organised enemy who is resistant to this kind of swift action but any ideas?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 23, 2023, 11:22:51 am

I think a Cult of the Martyr growing, with the locals hailing Galen and the hamlets as martyrs and condemning the Sororitas as having strayed from the Emperor's light as signified by their heavy handedness, would be a fun angle. Such things take time though, so it might not make a lot of sense for a feudal level society to do in the span of a game.

Them overreacting and going super hard on the penitence angle would make perfect sense though. 'Three farming communities were killed to the last man standing by the Emperor's Servants for harbouring a heretic. We must cleanse ourselves of all sin and perfidy to assuage any doubt that we are not Righteous! Flagellate thyselves, cast aside temptation and burn the infidel!'

Spur a Redemptionist style cult. Something like House Cawdor from Necromunda, the Flagellants from WHF, the Cult of the Pure form and so on. Have some zealous lunatic style preachers crop up as NPCs and have baying hordes of penitents be willing to die for the Sororitas' mission in some sessions. Any suggestion of someone being an enemy to these guys results in them trying to tear them limb from limb, even if the players don't actually want that to happen.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 23, 2023, 03:35:29 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on May 23, 2023, 11:22:51 am

Spur a Redemptionist style cult. Something like House Cawdor from Necromunda, the Flagellants from WHF, the Cult of the Pure form and so on. Have some zealous lunatic style preachers crop up as NPCs and have baying hordes of penitents be willing to die for the Sororitas' mission in some sessions. Any suggestion of someone being an enemy to these guys results in them trying to tear them limb from limb, even if the players don't actually want that to happen.

I can already imagine some interesting scenarios where the administratum is desperately trying to coax the flagellants back into being farmers because since everyone started these cults of redemption no one wants to produce food or collect raw materials anymore. They're too busy flagellating.

Could even have some really gnarly wickerman, but instead of burning people alive, it's just one giant penitent engine. Could make for an interesting choice players could be left to resolve, e.g. is it better to let this zealotry take hold (innocents will die. The hive will lose its easy access to raw resources and descend into instability unless help is brought in from the admiralty/mechanicus) but the farmers will stop being a soft target to all the xenos raids. This would also no doubt raise the eyebrows of the rival inquisitor on the planet whilst turning almost all the noble houses against them (as all the peasants reject "temporal authority" in favour of only serving the Emperor of mankind). Could give me a good excuse to start siccing well-armed assassins and ambushes after them... Supported by their hordes of braying flagellants

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on May 25, 2023, 02:42:30 pm

Got an idea in my head for a Dark Heresy story with a Bendy type of deal going on.

So there's this Slaaneshi artifact in the FFG rpgs, a book that gets spread out to artists, writers, sculptors and so on, which drives them to insane depths of depravity as they try to perfect their particular art using the knowledge within and sometimes causes daemons to enter realspace. One of those open ended low detail story hook ideas.

My thought is a Propaganda film maker gets a copy. The guy makes a highly popular but really dumb series based around a squad of heroic guardsmen who do ridiculously larger than life feats. Fist-fight a (sanitised depiction of a) Tyranid Warrior, defeat witches through the power of faith and friendship alone, defeat armies of rebels with Rambo crossed with Home Alone type shenanigans. Names like Buff McCool and Slab Bulkhead. Not sure if animated, sepia tone film, holograms or what. Maybe multiple mediums of film, doesn't really matter.

Important thing is that this series is linked to a notable statistical increase in guard recruitment among demographics exposed to it, with the primary source of consumption being a Hive World where it's basically either the guard or the gangs for you life prospects. One of the co-writers dies in what the Arbites rule as an accent, but an Inquisitor of the pinboard-and-red-string paranoia type is sure it's a targetted assassination by seditious elements who want to reduce guard recruitment, so he pulls strings and gets a more hands-on colleague to send some grunts to give it a once over, mostly to shut him up about it.

What is actually going on is that the lead creator had something of a crisis of faith after reading through the records of some of the planet's guard regiments, which he's supposed to parse for possible real life material for his propaganda. The sheer amount of dead left him disillusioned, feeling that the Imperium needs Heroes. A book he recieved from an anonymous source promises the ability to make his fictional guardsmen real, to step off the screen and save the Imperium. As the book's influence wormed it's way into his brain the material he was producing began to incorporate subtle elements of a sorcerous sequence, which is causing those involved in the production to die or be injured in accidents to fuel the work of fiction itself being possessed by daemons of Slaanesh.

The ultimate result being that a twisted parody of Buff McCool (or whatever the propaganda characters are called) literally steps off a screen and starts killing people. Wide lipless mouth filled with sharp teeth, flexible limbs with blades that can burst out of the hands, emits a mist that dulls the mind, all the standard Slaanesh stuff, but in the general form of a guardsman complete with the filter of whatever media it stepped from. An animated one looks animated, or it's all monotone or covered in sepia film style grain.

Once the summoning is complete, every copy of the work that involved any part of the sequence, so all post-book copies, is a doorway for daemons to step out using the characters as avatars. Culminating in a fight against the whole fictional squad as they step from the last piece of work.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on June 02, 2023, 05:05:39 pm

So... Changeling vigilante who targets murderers while wearing the faces of the victims that were killed.

I think the concept could have some merit. Could even tie it in as a side plot thingy by luring the party in with talk of undead activity being spotted... But of course the only people who have seen these "undead" are themselves killers, and probably not too keen on revealing why/how they know the "deceased".

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: heydude6 on June 03, 2023, 12:58:52 pm

Sounds like a cool idea. You’ll probably have to hold the reveal to the very end though. I’m pretty sure if the party figured out the truth, they’d side with the vigilante.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Frumple on June 03, 2023, 04:51:26 pm

Quote from: Kagus on June 02, 2023, 05:05:39 pm

So... Changeling vigilante who targets murderers while wearing the faces of the victims that were killed.

I think the concept could have some merit. Could even tie it in as a side plot thingy by luring the party in with talk of undead activity being spotted... But of course the only people who have seen these "undead" are themselves killers, and probably not too keen on revealing why/how they know the "deceased".

I've seen that in writing before, somewhere or another. Can't even a little remember where, but it's a concept someone thought was good enough to publish.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on June 04, 2023, 02:50:59 am

Quote from: heydude6 on June 03, 2023, 12:58:52 pm

Sounds like a cool idea. You’ll probably have to hold the reveal to the very end though. I’m pretty sure if the party figured out the truth, they’d side with the vigilante.

He could still be worse than the murderers in some way... or misguided, like the party comes into conflict with him when he targets somebody they know (or think) is innocent and have to protect. 

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on June 04, 2023, 05:27:56 pm

He's also killing people without legal justification and spreading paranoia and superstition in the process, plenty of room for the party to stop him on behalf of the locals even if the people being killed would be facing a hefty prison sentence or execution.

Broadly speaking, if the Changeling has enough cause to think that someone is a murderer they should be trying to prove it to the local police/guards so the murderer can be hanged or something, not just unilaterally shanking them while wearing a dead person's face. Authorities tend not to like vigilantes.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: delphonso on June 04, 2023, 08:51:37 pm

Might be worth adding some moral complexity to the scenario. At least one victim who wasn't actually a murderer, and someone who perhaps survived an attack by the changeling and turned themself in, shaken by the apparent revenant attack.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: delphonso on June 19, 2023, 12:02:27 am

So I'm working on a new campaign setting - my last one was a sunken world as Umbralee had punched a hole into the elemental plane of water in a land-grab. The setting was high-seas adventures, with pirates galore and a very long and arduous trip through the plane of fire. Anyway, the new one is just slowly being built in one-shots but I hit on an idea about the diminutive folk that you find in most RPGs.

Halflings are just short humans, but also come with a different personality/culture. Informed by Tolkien, that is usually explained by saying they're content folk, who like a simple life and good meal - but is mechanically expressed by...making them burglars?

Gnomes are either more like diminutive dwarves or elves, depending on the setting. The art for Pathfinder certainly makes them look more elven than dwarven, but stuff like the Svirfneblin make them seem more dwarven, less elven (assuming that deep gnomes are somehow connected to land gnomes.)

Goblins can pretty easily be explained as the little-orcs, and I'm sure there's options for plenty of other pint-sized enemies. If dragonborn are present, kobolds are pretty easy to fit into that too.

So I was thinking about something in the history of the world to explain this trend - and of course, rewriting what it means to be those things, in general. Either I would introduce a deity who amplified certain creatures, or who shrunk them down and change their essence -

Dragonborn is a good example, because you can go from a glory warrior-based society of dragonborn to a greedy, petty society of kobolds.

Humans are ambitious creatures, prone to setting up shop somewhere and fighting tooth and nail to preserve it. Halflings are not so stubborn - their short frames and spry muscles give them nearly endless endurance, coupled with their contentedness, they are the primary frontiersfolk, running miles across open desert and setting up a new settlement the first place that has shade and fresh water. Even seafarers sometimes find halflings on previously unknown islands, lounging under palm trees.

Dwarves are inventive but perfectionists, redesigning the entry-ways to their mountainhomes a hundred times over, while gnomes are more willing to drop a project and move on - often resulting in half-finished and completely unsafe magical items. A dwarven stronghold is a mess of perfect right angles, design and redesigned into uselessness, while a gnomish stronghold is half-smoothed, has tunnels running to nowhere, and often littered with piles of ash or half-operational automatons.

Orcs like to fight, but have the mentality of a fighter/soldier - they consider fights as battles in a greater war. Goblins are more reckless, seeking a glorious death and fight like every fight is their last. Both can be appealing mercenaries, depending on the job you want done, and how loudly.

Elves? Well they ate their diminutive folk.

If I'm making a new setting, I'd also like to add some new twists on the "races", especially taking them out of the pseudo-scientific taxonomy we usually work with, and instead shift them more into fantasy or fairy-tale. Dwarves and gnomes aren't born, but are rather carved from stone and gems, for example. Any ideas or sources for this are appreciated.

I'm also reading the rulebook for Gubat Banwa (https://makapatag.itch.io/gubat-banwa), and am fascinated by the use of violence as a divine force - violence being from the religious definition: extreme emotion spurring action. I might scrap the whole Law/Good/Chaos/Evil spectrum and just include violence - this fits well, already with my concepts of the differences between the full-size and diminutive folks.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 19, 2023, 10:25:30 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/YOk6q5M.png)

Yeah the alignment chart system only makes sense if your morality is PUREGOKU

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on June 20, 2023, 07:01:31 am

I think the alignment system works better if you consider Chaos to be more in the Warhammer way. I haven't read the original books they based it on, I struggle to remember rhetoric name right now but I mean the original sword and sorcery ones, but from what I gather in those it worked more like that.

Or if you replace Law and Chaos with Civilization and Primality.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on June 20, 2023, 07:21:19 am

I sorta looked at it as a Society/Individual axis, with Good/Evil being Selfless/Selfish.

Lawful characters focus on the community and society as a whole, and thereby the rules and measures that bind it together for the good of the many. I say "good of the many" here, but Lawful Evil can and will absolutely abuse and manipulate those rules in order to get themselves into positions of power and safety, since they are Selfish. But they are still inherently focused on the society in those machinations, because if they disrupt the foundation too much then the tower they're climbing will collapse.

Chaotic Evil would just break it all down, take whatever they want from the rubble, and hide out in a cave somewhere alone. They don't care about society one way or the other, they just want what's best for themselves.

Similarly, Lawful Good will place the needs of the many over the needs of the few. This can mean that a few people get left out by the sweeping changes, but the "greater good" is appealed to. Chaotic Good cares more about the individual person. Chaotic Good might fight the system to let a kind old lady stay in her ramshackle home and prevent the area from being reclaimed for other purposes, but the Lawful Good one might try to help her move elsewhere so that the reclaimed area can go towards benefitting the city's populace as a whole.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: NullForceOmega on June 20, 2023, 09:02:09 am

...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Rolan7 on June 20, 2023, 10:03:37 am

Oh yeah there's a thread specifically for alignment talk (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=151965.msg6374167#msg6374167), even or especially when the alignment talk hasn't devolved into an argument.

Interesting stuff though.  And I *think* scriver may be thinking of Michael Moorcock's novels regarding Chaos.

Postedit to below: nice, moor for me

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on June 20, 2023, 11:05:35 am

Quote from: scriver on June 20, 2023, 07:01:31 am

I don't remember the name right now

Quote from: Rolan7 on June 20, 2023, 10:03:37 am

Moorcock, scriver?

No thanks I'm full

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on June 20, 2023, 01:43:52 pm

Over time I've come around to a concept where the primal conflict is Chaos wants to unmake reality, Law wants to preserve and make it permanent, Good and Evil are more concerned with how to further either goal. The universe exists as a sort of consensus reality, a prison of sorts held together by common will, when enough things stop wanting to exist reality will dissolve back into raw undifferentiated potential and all things that are part of the world will be free to change and twist and weave new things again and again for eternity.

Chaotic Good wants to make people let go of reality to seek a higher state of being in the primordial chaos that came before creation, they want to be free from the prison of reality but are willing to take their time and not force others to go along with them before they're ready. Chaotic Evil wants to be free now and will torture others to break them of their desire to exist.

Lawful Good wants to make people reject the idea of transcendental existence, instead embracing things like reincarnation and heaven to further the existence of creation and prevent it's dissolution, by making people happy. A man who lives in Paradise has no reason to question the nature of truth or divinity. Lawful Evil seek to break people's wills such that they cannot dream of the transcendent goal of Chaos, keeping people miserable and scraping by so that they cannot spare thoughts towards metaphysics and enlightenment.

Chaotic/Lawful Neutral are the more morally grey middlegrounds between their Good/Evil counterparts. True Neutral, Neutral Evil and Neutral Good are largely unconcerned with the existence of reality, instead focusing on the now but not in such a way as to reject the philosophy of Chaos outright. Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil are nominally allies with a shared goal, but disagree vehememtly enough on the methods that conflict between them still happens, as does conflict between their Lawful counterparts.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on June 20, 2023, 04:36:29 pm

Y'know... Nearly every campaign I've been in has been sorta... Hipstery, I guess. Counterculture. Trying to spice the "old, drab, routine" fantasy settings and playstyles, because that's what the industry is made of and what we've all experienced a hundred times before.

But that's just it... I haven't actually had those experiences. So now they're the fresh and appealing idea in my eyes.


I'd like to play a campaign sometime that's full-on classic fantasy nonsense. Full cheese. Sword and Sorcery, with a bit of Saturday morning cartoon thrown in. Just revel in the cliche and live it up.

...or maybe I've just been out of a game for so long that I'm starting to get weird abstinence-spawned delusions.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: BlackFlyme on June 20, 2023, 08:12:44 pm

The only homebrew campaign I've played that lasted longer than a few sessions is about an entire town getting transported to a sort of opposite world where evil won a war against good a long time ago. Though even then it's a frankenstein of adventures that a friend of a friend in my DnD group started working on when he got into tabletop games back in AD&D.

---

I tried a one-shot of Legend of the Five Rings last weekend. Certainly different from what I'm used to, and we were using the optional rules to play on a grid-mat, which was a bit awkward. Out of everyone in the party, I was also perpetually on the edge of losing my composure, but Pelting Hail Style basically made me a shotgunner when enemies were grouped up.

I'm not sure if the GM knew how the dying rules worked, though. The villain lost a foot, a leg, their fingers, and an eye, and was still standing. Figuratively, I mean.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: delphonso on June 21, 2023, 07:22:21 am

Quote from: Kagus on June 20, 2023, 04:36:29 pm

Y'know... Nearly every campaign I've been in has been sorta... Hipstery, I guess. Counterculture. Trying to spice the "old, drab, routine" fantasy settings and playstyles, because that's what the industry is made of and what we've all experienced a hundred times before.

But that's just it... I haven't actually had those experiences. So now they're the fresh and appealing idea in my eyes.


I'd like to play a campaign sometime that's full-on classic fantasy nonsense. Full cheese. Sword and Sorcery, with a bit of Saturday morning cartoon thrown in. Just revel in the cliche and live it up.

...or maybe I've just been out of a game for so long that I'm starting to get weird abstinence-spawned delusions.

This was my original pitch for a campaign back before the High Seas adventure - I wanted to just make a Conan The Barbarian-style campaign of classic fantasy tropes, no surprises there.

But, of course, the characters would be humans from our world that slipped through a portal, because...hipster I guess.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on June 22, 2023, 12:54:24 pm

I dunno rhe last part is pretty old dvhool too

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Duuvian on June 23, 2023, 12:41:56 am

Quote from: delphonso on June 21, 2023, 07:22:21 am

But, of course, the characters would be humans from our world that slipped through a portal, because...hipster I guess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardians_of_the_Flame

I read the first 3, I thought they were good. The first book is almost exactly what you described. Karl Culinane is basically a nerd placed in the body of a character like Conan.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 26, 2023, 06:55:26 am

Quote from: Kagus on June 20, 2023, 04:36:29 pm

Y'know... Nearly every campaign I've been in has been sorta... Hipstery, I guess. Counterculture. Trying to spice the "old, drab, routine" fantasy settings and playstyles, because that's what the industry is made of and what we've all experienced a hundred times before.

But that's just it... I haven't actually had those experiences. So now they're the fresh and appealing idea in my eyes.

I'd like to play a campaign sometime that's full-on classic fantasy nonsense. Full cheese. Sword and Sorcery, with a bit of Saturday morning cartoon thrown in. Just revel in the cliche and live it up.

...or maybe I've just been out of a game for so long that I'm starting to get weird abstinence-spawned delusions.

It might be the cultural influence of popular 5e streams like CritRole or arguably even a product of 5e's ruleset being used for anything that isn't dungeon crawling. E.g. I had this same experience in my own gaming groups where anyone who used 5e, no matter what they were trying to go for, essentially ended up producing the exact same gaming table. I've played with DMs who wanted something obscenely grimdark, who wanted something epic fantasy, who wanted monster of the week power rangers, who wanted high power fantasies or down to earth sleuthing - it all pretty much always ended up being the same game. Hipstery table where people are making wise-quips, character deaths are nigh impossible and no one cares if they die as they'll be back, very little in the way of playing a role - characters are basically just video game avatars for the IRL person playing them.

Creativity being limited to a few spellcaster lists creates this sytem where the most creativity you can express for most characters will be in character creation. This causes players to gravitate towards creative and imaginative gimmicks, like a barbarian wizard / a wizard barbarian / a paladin atheist with no moral code / non-human characters whose sole identity is they are not humans / airship captains without airships, are some of the worst offenders I've seen to date. Coupled with the innate power of player characters spiralling rapidly into Greek-god tier without any narrative reason supplied, and the expectation that encounters will always be balanced to the party's strength by the DM, you get players who are dislocated from any emotional investment beyond quips and gimmicks.

I had this pervading conniption with one DM who wanted to run a low fantasy gaming session where the player characters would be stronger than your average man and skilled fighters, but still be easily threatened when encountering some mythical beast, with some bloodborne-esque tinged survival horror amidst a plagued out city. They were determined to try and adapt 5e to run this and were convinced it was easier to spend months trying to homebrew and houserule 5e into doing this sort of game instead of just taking a day to read the rules of a system designed to do exactly that, like Low Fantasy Gaming (https://lowfantasygaming.com/freepdf/) -_-

But lo and behold after much lobbying and months of failed attempts to get ppl to read the rules, the game was done with LFG rules. And it was a low fantasy horror where the PCs were powerful but threatened by mythical critters. No subversions or gimmicks

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on July 11, 2023, 03:19:23 pm

If you end up getting sent into the astral plane or some other bizarre dimension... Couldn't you just cast Banishment on yourself to go back?

I mean sure, there's a CHA save and no specific wording that you can choose to fail it, but... Still seems a fair bit easier than some of the other options.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on July 11, 2023, 06:14:29 pm

Quote from: Kagus on July 11, 2023, 03:19:23 pm

If you end up getting sent into the astral plane or some other bizarre dimension... Couldn't you just cast Banishment on yourself to go back?

I mean sure, there's a CHA save and no specific wording that you can choose to fail it, but... Still seems a fair bit easier than some of the other options.

Assuming you have enough spell slots for every present party member, and time to do so, (about four and a half minutes for your average 4 man party, which is easy enough if you aren't under immediate attack) yeah.

I think some planes, mostly evil ones, might have inherent shenanigans that make that difficult in some editions, as would the Divine Realms of deities, but it's generally an easy way out of most involuntary interplanar stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on July 11, 2023, 06:42:05 pm

Wouldn't it just plop you back "somewhere" in the prime material plane?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Persus13 on July 11, 2023, 06:44:19 pm

Yeah, but if you're about to be eaten by an astral whale, that's a problem for you 5 minutes from now.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on July 12, 2023, 01:46:19 am

Quote from: Persus13 on July 11, 2023, 06:44:19 pm

Yeah, but if you're about to be eaten by an astral whale, that's a problem for you 5 minutes from now.

*lands in the middle of ocean next to killer whales*

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: delphonso on July 12, 2023, 05:19:08 am

Quote from: scriver on July 12, 2023, 01:46:19 am

Quote from: Persus13 on July 11, 2023, 06:44:19 pm

Yeah, but if you're about to be eaten by an astral whale, that's a problem for you 5 minutes from now.

*lands in the middle of ocean next to killer whales*

A true DM.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Rolan7 on July 12, 2023, 09:13:15 am

Players: "Orcas! We're saved!"
GM: "Think more Captain Ahab"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2023, 12:57:58 am

Quote from: Rolan7 on July 12, 2023, 09:13:15 am

Players: "Orcas! We're saved!"
GM: "Think more Captain Ahab"

Ahab the storm herald barbarian

Man too angry to drown

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on August 17, 2023, 12:19:38 pm

Got an idea for an X-files adjacent kind of game. Set in the modern period, sometime in between 1920-1970 or so.

The PCs would be agents working for a Men in Black type secret organisation, working to suppress knowledge of various supernatural or supernatural-adjacent phenomena and threats. Werewolves, zombie viruses, vampires, wendigos, cryptids in general, that sort of thing.

The organisation started out as several groups of knights, monks, priests, doctors and so forth from around the world who had taken up the cause of hunting their local 'monsters' to protect their own people, but after efforts to utilise these monsters in one or the other World War* it was decided that the various groups of monster hunters needed to come together and cooperate to prevent the threats they had been guarding against from being released upon people en masse by malevolent actors, and most of these groups have come together to form a unified clandestine body which operates semi-independantly from the nations of the world.

Now the main two threats the organisation deals with are wild outbreaks of the things they seek to contain, a werewolf preying on the people of an isolated region, a town being laid siege by undead after it's water supply became contaminated with the zombie plague, and the human radicals who seek to weaponise or irresponsibly study the pathogens, species and stange forces behind these events.


*Perhaps Nazi Werewolves, or British Zombies. Whatever plan, it would have been nipped in the bud.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on August 17, 2023, 12:23:06 pm

Got a system in mind?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on August 17, 2023, 01:07:16 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on August 17, 2023, 12:23:06 pm

Got a system in mind?

A few come to mind. I have a fondness for the FFG 40k percentile system, and it would be easy enough to refit Dark Heresy to be set in the real world but with monsters. Strip out the sci-fi and 40k stuff and you're left with a high lethality shooting and stabbing game. Meaningful reload times on some guns is also a plus.

D20 Modern is an obvious pick, as is WoD, but D20 modern is basically just D&D with guns, which isn't really the tone I would want, and WoD is a game I find really unintuitive. WoD might flow better once everything is loaded up into a virtual system like Roll20, but just setting it up would be a real pain.

Call of Cthulhu might work, in that it's a D20 system, so more easy to acclimatise my group to but much gloomier and higher lethality than D&D derivatives. The sanity mechanics might be of interest to represent PTSD or similar.

All Flesh Must Be Eaten might also work, it was literally designed around zombie horror, but it's been a while so I don't recall quite how easy it was to play. It's probably my number 1 choice, but I need to look it over to actually make up my mind.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Persus13 on August 17, 2023, 09:05:55 pm

Not sure where you got the idea that Call of Chtulhu is d20, since its a d100 system like the 40k FFG RPGs. I think it has had at least one d20 conversion, but its primarily d100.

Since you seem to like d100, might be worth checking out the Delta Green RPG, which is a spin off of Call of Cthulhu where you work for a secret government agency/conspiracy dedicated to keeping the mythos contained and secret in the modern day. It also cites X-Files as an inspiration, so its probably easily hackable.

Another possibility might be Modiphius's Achtung Cthulhu. Haven't played that one myself but its a bit more pulpy and definitely has Nazi supernatural stuff.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on August 19, 2023, 05:12:37 am

Anyone have experience with Candela Obscura? Friend of mine discovered it recently and it gunning to DM a game of it, and I might be able to snag a spot there. Never heard of the system before her bringing it up, so was kinda curious what I might be getting myself into

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on August 19, 2023, 05:14:11 am

Tell us about it :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Persus13 on August 19, 2023, 08:00:35 am

You probably haven't heard of it since the full rules aren't even out yet. The quickstart was released a few months back and the full rules come out in October.

Pretty much all I know about it is that its produced by the Critical Role folks and its an investigative horror rpg in the vein of stuff like Call of Cthulhu.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on August 19, 2023, 08:28:25 am

Quote from: Persus13 on August 17, 2023, 09:05:55 pm

Not sure where you got the idea that Call of Chtulhu is d20, since its a d100 system like the 40k FFG RPGs. I think it has had at least one d20 conversion, but its primarily d100.

Since you seem to like d100, might be worth checking out the Delta Green RPG, which is a spin off of Call of Cthulhu where you work for a secret government agency/conspiracy dedicated to keeping the mythos contained and secret in the modern day. It also cites X-Files as an inspiration, so its probably easily hackable.

Another possibility might be Modiphius's Achtung Cthulhu. Haven't played that one myself but its a bit more pulpy and definitely has Nazi supernatural stuff.

I've not actually looked into Call of Cthulhu in detail, so I probably picked up the d20 impression from some discussion or other where it got mentioned on the other forum I use. Which given it's riddled with D&D people, probably winds up with half the references being to the d20 conversion anyway.

Achtung! Cthulhu looks like it might be interesting for a more action oriented game, and I'll probably check it out.

Delta Green might be exactly what I'm looking for.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Great Order on August 24, 2023, 07:16:24 pm

Found a conversation which has lead me to a... semi-useless item idea. Useless if the PCs have no idea what it does. And it depends on the setting.

A True Immovable Rod.

It's stationary compared to the universe's frame of reference. On Earth, for example, we can base that off of the CMB. So you activate it and, from the players perspectives, it suddenly whizzes off at 370km/s, possibly straight through the planet depending on where it was activated.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on August 24, 2023, 07:29:44 pm

Or rather, what time of day. :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: King Zultan on August 25, 2023, 04:32:17 am

All fun and games until you activate it and it flies right through your chest.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 25, 2023, 05:53:07 am

Quote from: Great Order on August 24, 2023, 07:16:24 pm

Found a conversation which has lead me to a... semi-useless item idea. Useless if the PCs have no idea what it does. And it depends on the setting.

A True Immovable Rod.

It's stationary compared to the universe's frame of reference. On Earth, for example, we can base that off of the CMB. So you activate it and, from the players perspectives, it suddenly whizzes off at 370km/s, possibly straight through the planet depending on where it was activated.

Unless you activate the immovable rod and discover your world is flat or motionless. Even better if it is flat and rotates so at the true northernmost point, activating it produces a relativistic stripper pole

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Criptfeind on August 25, 2023, 09:35:02 am

If it was rotating around the north pole it'd presumably take a day per rotation (assuming the reason why it's rotating is to provide a day night cycle with a stationary sun, other things like year long rotations or whatever are possible too I guess) so you'd end up with the slowest stripper pole in the world.

Also I'm not sure but I thought that under special relativity, there is no universal reference frame for a Immovable Rod to stick itself in, at least in our universe? Although we could imagine that d&d cosmology might differ, I could certainly imagine that perhaps in the standard D&D cosmology the prime material having no universal reference frame itself, but the multiverse as a whole having one, presumably based on the astral sea. Which a true immovable rod locking itself into a reference frame based on an alternate dimension might have some pretty wacky characteristics... Possibly starting with achieving infinite velocity if the prime material plane is infinite in scope but finite in the area taken up within the astral?

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Great Order on August 25, 2023, 06:36:51 pm

Yeah, not really, which is why I based it off of CMB. But in any other setting you can choose what "The" frame of reference is, whether that's because the world's the only thing in the universe or a god/gods decided what it'd be.

And yeah, like I said it's not necessarily useful. Just kinda funny. It'd make an exceptional weapon if you could work out when and were to activate it so that it flies into a purple wurm's brain at relativistic velocities.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on August 27, 2023, 01:53:33 am

I believe that's exactly what the immovable rod did in certain SS13 branches; start rapidly flying through the map and annihilating everything in its path.

At least until someone suplexes it into a potted plant.

Quote from: Persus13 on August 19, 2023, 08:00:35 am

You probably haven't heard of it since the full rules aren't even out yet. The quickstart was released a few months back and the full rules come out in October.

Pretty much all I know about it is that its produced by the Critical Role folks and its an investigative horror rpg in the vein of stuff like Call of Cthulhu.

That would certainly explain why, yes :P And given that description I can see why my friend wants to run a game of it; she's a bit of a CR fangirl. Also somewhat excitable in general, so leaping to collect players for a system that's not even out yet seems in character.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on August 27, 2023, 04:12:44 am

I'm in

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Persus13 on August 27, 2023, 11:46:16 am

Quote from: Kagus on August 27, 2023, 01:53:33 am

Quote from: Persus13 on August 19, 2023, 08:00:35 am

You probably haven't heard of it since the full rules aren't even out yet. The quickstart was released a few months back and the full rules come out in October.

Pretty much all I know about it is that its produced by the Critical Role folks and its an investigative horror rpg in the vein of stuff like Call of Cthulhu.

That would certainly explain why, yes :P And given that description I can see why my friend wants to run a game of it; she's a bit of a CR fangirl. Also somewhat excitable in general, so leaping to collect players for a system that's not even out yet seems in character.

To be fair to your friend, there's a good chunk of games you can get pretty far running with just the quickstart rules for. A lot of RPGs can fit the important rules in like 4 pages if pressed.

I feel like this forum's RPG culture largely skews towards older RPGs, so I was mainly amused because an RPG being released in 2023 by Critical Role doesn't feel like it would overlap a ton with this crowd's preferences.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 27, 2023, 02:01:22 pm

Quote from: Kagus on August 27, 2023, 01:53:33 am

I believe that's exactly what the immovable rod did in certain SS13 branches; start rapidly flying through the map and annihilating everything in its path.

At least until someone suplexes it into a potted plant.

And if two rods collide they produce a singularity

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 17, 2023, 03:10:51 pm

My players ended up breaking the terms of a contract with a devil in my Spelljammin' campaign, and I'm thinking the devil is going to get them the only proper way - by suing them in infernal court. The devil's name is Keresiar the Alchemist, and he's been waiting for a while to take vengeance for tricking him into giving them very generous terms.

So they'll soon return to their ship to find an imp there with a summons to the Hells to defend themselves in the court of devil law. If they do not comply within the allotted time, they'll be hunted by devil cops across the planes. They might choose to avoid it, who knows, but in case they do agree to show up and go deal with the infernal judicial system...

...what kind of awful and silly nonsense should they face? I want to create some terrible hilarious courtroom antics to throw at 'em.

Some context:

• Their contract stipulated non-aggression, neither party can inflict harm upon the other (physical, mental, spiritual)
• The party got themselves imprisoned, but seemed like they were going to clear their name - so the devil sent an infernal assault force to free them as a friendly gesture
• The intent being to frame them as being complicit in the attack and thus get painted in the worst possible light, ruining any chance of clearing themselves
• The devils attacking the place were acting all friendly and loudly proclaiming that they were there to help; the party still attacked them, because devils attacking innocents, we can't stand by
• They inflicted harm on the servants of Keresiar and thus broke their pact
• Additionally they destroyed a horrifying flesh abomination that was actually just an art piece of Keresiar's, so that's vandalism on top of the breach of contract :(

The charges they'll be facing will be, I'm thinking:

• Breach of Contract: As described above.
• Vandalism: Destruction of horrible flesh abomination in their path that was an infernal art piece, the philistines.
• Conduct Unbecoming of Mortalkind: Refusing to age (by spending most of this campaign in the Astral Plane), among other misdemeanors.
• Multiple Homicide: Killing several devils (though not in any permanent way).
• Hate Crime (Religious): Killing a devil-worshipper (which they merely enabled and did not personally commit, so easyish to disprove)

But I'm looking for other ones to add on there. The more bizarre and spurious, the better.

They'll be assigned an infernal public defender, who will appeal for lighter sentencing on grounds such as "Your Dishonor, they are ignorant and stupid mortals who cannot be expected to think for themselves." Directly defending themselves will be extremely difficult due to bizarre infernal legal customs, so the situation is stacked against them.

I'm thinking the potential defenses (hinted at with the appropriate checks) so far could be:

• Entrapment: Keresiar's unwanted rescue was fully intended to manipulate them into breaking the contract; witnesses can be found to support this
• Keresiar Broke It First: Claiming that they suffered mental or spiritual harm from the unwanted rescue and its dangers, so that the devil broke the pact first
• Divine Immunity: One of the party has the soul fragment of a long-dead god inside them, which may provide them immunity to prosecution on grounds of divinity (if only for that PC)
• Harm, What Harm?: Killing devils just sends them back into the Hells, thus no actual permanent harm was inflicted upon servants of Keresiar.

Of course, should the case go against them, they'll just have to break out of Hell. That'll be fun too.

I'm in general interested in any ideas on how to make an infernal courtroom as entertaining as possible! Throw me your wildest suggestions, if you have 'em!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on September 17, 2023, 03:25:27 pm

Conspiracy to disrespect Hell.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: heydude6 on September 17, 2023, 09:29:29 pm

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on September 17, 2023, 03:10:51 pm

It's hard to top what you've already written. Adding extra charges is especially hard since the ones you currently have were deliberately set up by you in advance (your vandalism charge only works because you had the foresight to summon a flesh horror). Those are always going to be superior to ones added retroactively. The only additional charge I can think of is adding Child Abuse (perhaps one of the demons was actually underage).

I have some ideas for the coutroom though, especially in terms of ways to mount an effective defence.


Jurisdiction Conflict: For a court that prides itself so much upon the letter of law, it is astonishing that the infernal court is willing to overlook the plaintiff's blatant interference in the legal proceedings of another sovereign plane. His actions very well may have caused a mistrial! *shocked gasp from devlish jury*. Doesn't he know that Hell has an extradition treaty to prevent these kinds of incidents?

Hiatus in Anticipation of evidence: I don't know the official legal term for this one, but in some courts if a client has multiple pending trials, and if it's likely that the outcome of one trial will significantly influence the subsequent trial, then that trial cannot proceed until the previous one has been concluded. Since so much of the clients' defence rests on whether or not the plaintiff committed harm, the outcome of the trial in the material plane plays a pivotal role in the outcome of this one and this trial must be postponed till the former's conclusion. Tempt the party into sabotaging their material trial to improve the odds of the hellish one, only to have it be undone by...

The Plaintiff's Paradox: If the Plaintiff's actions cause the client to receive a guilty verdict, then we can conclude that the Plaintiff committed harm, thus we must give an innocent verdict, thus the plaintiff did not commit harm, thus we must give a guilty verdict, thus the plaintiff did commit harm, thus we must give an innocent verdict.... etc. This can be a defence or an attack defending on where you stop the recursion.

I summon the witness!: While we try to determine whether the plaintiff's actions negatively impacted the outcome of the previous trial, it may be useful to ask the jurors themselves how the demonic invasion affected their perception of the clients' innocence or guilt. Let me just finish drawing this pentagram and- Wow! didn't expect so much screaming... do they really hate the wallpaper that much? (Feel free to do the usual witness badgering, ask leading questions, etc. For extra fun, use the power of prophecy to summon people who were only supposed to become jurors in the future. If you want to go even farther, you could plane-shift the whole town into hell for the duration of the trial.)

Multiple Hearings: We have exceeded our allotted time and the judge believes there is not yet enough evidence to reach a verdict. For the time being, our client will be released on bail and will return to court when a slot will next be available (I don't think there's anything that screams legal hell more than a protracted lawsuit. Plus it gives you an excuse to let the party go back for adventuring. For extra torture, make them pay bail after each hearing and continuously increase its price).

---

Ultimately, I think a hellish court that tricks the defendants into thinking that they actually have power over their verdict is better than one that's blatantly kangarooo from the outset. It would go a long way to boost player investment if the defence lawyer could actually get some of the misdemeanour charges dropped, and let the player's actions decide how badly they fumble the breach-of-contract defence.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 18, 2023, 05:16:32 am

These are great, thank you. It will be entirely possible to win the case, because a) devils will honor their own laws and b) the plaintiff has many rivals who would love to see their case collapse and them get demoted.

Actually, now that I think about it, the party getting a rival devil to support them and provide them the best defense lawyer of the Nine Hells would be a great way to go about it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on September 18, 2023, 08:19:59 am

Naturally, they would have to go into contract with THAT devil. :D

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2023, 01:01:08 pm

That'd be a good fallback, actually, because the devils have a secret reason to want to do that- according to 3.5's Fiendish Codex 2, every deal is building a secondary case for their mortal souls.

Quote from: Fiendish Codex 2 on contesting a soul-sale

It is also possible for a defendant to win her case on merit, only to suffer condemnation to the Nine Hells on unrelated grounds if her corruption score or obeisance score (see page 30) equals or exceeds 9. Much diabolical laughter then ensues.

Currently I think they're fine- the corrupt act would have been allowing the devils to run amok.  They... didn't play along :P

So maybe a devil offers them a really good deal to get them out of this.  But what corrupt action could a devil convince the party to actually perform?  "Stealing from the needy", unlikely and low-value.  "Torture", "Murder", no way...
How about "Perverting justice for personal gain" :D
I've gotten distracted but basically- if a "third party" devil can convince the party to cheat at trial, that's secretly corrupting them.

Two ways I could see that going:
An actual rival in the devil hierarchy gives the party blackmail material... or maybe just lies for their benefit (if they don't call out the lies, they're complicit).  This is tricky because devils are lawful creatures, but they're also constantly scheming against each other so I'm not sure what they're physically capable of.

A "rival" does the above, and it seems to work, but it's actually a collaborator working with The Alchemist to play the long game on their souls.  The case is intentionally lost, but legally, and for evil purposes.

It's not (RAW) nearly enough corruption to actual damn them, but maybe it's still something the devils would do and it gives the party a temporary reprieve if they were otherwise losing the case.  If they figure out that they're corrupted, the atonement spell can help but maybe they need to demonstrate they regret breaking the law.  since this is infernal law, that might be very difficult

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on September 18, 2023, 01:37:54 pm

Cleanse your corruption by atoning sincerely for cheating hell, which naturally causes more corruption itself. :D

Actually, how *would* cheating at hell cause corruption and bring you closer to the LE plane? Lying to bad people for good reasons is literally CG.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2023, 02:20:20 pm

Quote from: Egan_BW on September 18, 2023, 01:37:54 pm

Cleanse your corruption by atoning sincerely for cheating hell, which naturally causes more corruption itself. :D

Actually, how *would* cheating at hell cause corruption and bring you closer to the LE plane? Lying to bad people for good reasons is literally CG.

Ooh this is why I enjoyed reading the Fiendish Codex 2 just for lore stuff.  Devils are LE yeah, and theoretically their reason for existence is to enforce the law...  but not to promote the law.  They want mortals to break the law because that's how they get souls, and souls mean personal advancement in the devil hierarchy.

Asmodeus would probably say it's all for a good vital cause- those souls fuel the eternal war against the infinite forces of chaos (demons).  According to the devils, the gods created them for this war and then got all whiny when they got pragmatic about waging it.  Reminder that devils and angels are essentially the same creatures, and some devils are literally fallen angels.  Demons are *not*, haha.  The Fiendish Codex 2 says demons were just always there, and that everything that *is* is simply a tiny zone carved out of that infinite chaos.  But they're explicitly framing the story in a way that centers their importance and justifies their actions- and only Asmodeus and the gods know how much of the story is even true. 

And then the fey/eladrin are something else altogether, depending on setting probably.  I know more about guardinals which are celestials but somehow neutral regarding law/chaos- so, still essentially angels, but NG (and almost always furries lol).  Eladrin appear to be a different creature from angels/guardinals/devils.

---

tldr; Lying to devils isn't an evil act at all- however, devils can still claim mortals for being unlawful enough when divine law (such as pacts) are involved, even if they knew the mortals would be unlawful.  Devil justice doesn't have any problem with entrapment actually DX

The Pact Primeval between devils and the gods empowers them to do that "in defense of divine law".  (dunno how that works with chaotic gods, but I think the gods maintain a general alliance against demonic victory since even chaotic evil gods value their own existence, and demons would eventually destroy everything)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on September 18, 2023, 02:28:18 pm

I thought that "outside of everything that is" is where the eldritch horror enemies come from, which are not demons. :p
Hmm, I suppose that with a lot of different planes making up reality, there could be different directionality or different meanings of what the Outside is? Like in one sense the outside is infinite chaos filled with demons, but in a different sense the outer realms are outside, or maybe the more vital planes are on the inner edge and the material plane emanates from it...

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Criptfeind on September 18, 2023, 02:45:01 pm

Probably some of that and some of the fact that D&D cosmology depends on which setting your running.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on September 18, 2023, 03:03:08 pm

Quote from: Criptfeind on September 18, 2023, 02:45:01 pm

Probably some of that and some of the fact that D&D cosmology depends on which setting your running.

Yeh. It was my understanding that you basically have the various elemental and material planes that exist sorta within the greater astral plane (inasmuch as a potentially-infinite dimension can be "within" something else), and then beyond the edges of the (also infinite) astral plane you start getting into the far realms. The Abyss is infinite, yes, but it's also just as much its own separate, "contained" dimension as Inferno et al.

Then again, I can't say I ever really dug that deeply into D&D cosmology, so most of that's pulled directly from my ass plane.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Rolan7 on September 18, 2023, 03:20:54 pm

Haha, same here really.  We mostly stuck to Elysium and the elemental planes when we got high-level, though we had to go to Baator once and it sucked.

(later in 5e we did a module about trekking through hell at low level.  I think the 8th circle?  It was interesting, the devils were fairly polite since we "didn't belong here yet".  I think we mostly fought infernal ants and birds and those recently-digested souls)

Quote from: Criptfeind on September 18, 2023, 02:45:01 pm

Probably some of that and some of the fact that D&D cosmology depends on which setting your running.

That and I think even the Fiendish Codex 2 implies that the devil story isn't the *whole* story.  It's a legend in-universe.  I doubt it's entirely untrue, since Asmodeus was there and allows devils to tell it, but... I mean it frames devils as noble guardians, wrongly vilified, essentially responsible for all of existence.  How convenient :P

The topography of planes in relation to each other is always weird (particularly when they're "close" and form natural or stable gates??).  The eldritch planes definitely seem more Outside than most Outsiders, heh.  But IIRC they aren't typically chaotic- they're vast and alien, about as metaphorically far from the Material Plane as you can be, yet they share its mix of order and chaos.

I just realized the devil legend starts in an interesting way.  First there's infinite primordial chaos (including demons, who DO have some form...) and then: "A state of raw chaos was intolerable to the universe, so a force arose to combat it—the power of law." [the first gods]

Uh-huh.  There was only a primal force of creation and destruction, and then suddenly there were gods- and they definitely totally 100% didn't come from the chaos.  Suuuuure.  The beings which profit by fighting chaos couldn't possibly have a warped view of whatever happened there.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 18, 2023, 05:33:18 pm

I might need to get my hands on the Fiendish Codex 2, since it appears to have very juicy stuff for our Hellish detour. Thanks for all the ideas!

But yeah, trying to figure out DnD cosmology in 5e is doomed to failure. The 5e books which talk about gods and timelines are Forbidden Realms-focused and even there not very detailed, but supposedly the universe is bigger than that. It doesn't help that the big wiki is extremely unclear and contradictory about everything. It tries to form some kind of coherent timeline across editions out of conflicting information for some godawful reason. Also, it's written in the past tense which annoys me immensely.

5e Spelljammer also made the decision to scrap the old lore for the most part and provide minimal explanations for its new setting. Do all planes exist in every Wildspace system/world? Are there separate Shadowfells and Feywilds for each world? Do the gods exist everywhere? What are these celestial domains drifting around the Astral Plane, where gods apparently live - except separate Outer Planes that you can enter through color pools also still exist? So many questions, absolutely no answers.

I've just stitched together my own version of how everything works (mixing 4e material, Planescape stuff, the barebones 5e Spelljammer lore and my own ideas). Definitely going back to full homebrew settings after this campaign, lol.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 20, 2023, 09:09:10 am

One possible addition you could do as a little side-quest is demand a jury of their peers. Whether that means kidnapping mortals from other planes or choosing devils and demons most alike the party in personality could be up to them.

Devil prosecutor: "The defendants stand accused of breaching the terms of their contract and assaulting servants of Keresiar with intent to cause mortal harm,"
Yugoloth on jury duty: "Haha, nice. Fuck you Keresiar,"

An Egyptian scales of Anubis type thing would also be neat. So they could weigh up the morals of your players and the more lawful-evil they are the more the court will look favourably upon them as a respectable mortal with a nice, dark and diabolical future career ahead of them

And one inconsequential detail, that I just think is flavourful. It'd be nice if you have in the background a devil-clerk who is a living book, who keeps writing down all of the proceedings as a court transcript in their own internal organ-pages

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 21, 2023, 02:30:27 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on September 20, 2023, 09:09:10 am

One possible addition you could do as a little side-quest is demand a jury of their peers. Whether that means kidnapping mortals from other planes or choosing devils and demons most alike the party in personality could be up to them.

Devil prosecutor: "The defendants stand accused of breaching the terms of their contract and assaulting servants of Keresiar with intent to cause mortal harm,"
Yugoloth on jury duty: "Haha, nice. Fuck you Keresiar,"

An Egyptian scales of Anubis type thing would also be neat. So they could weigh up the morals of your players and the more lawful-evil they are the more the court will look favourably upon them as a respectable mortal with a nice, dark and diabolical future career ahead of them

And one inconsequential detail, that I just think is flavourful. It'd be nice if you have in the background a devil-clerk who is a living book, who keeps writing down all of the proceedings as a court transcript in their own internal organ-pages

I love these. I think I could even them choose someone for the jury if they can justify their choice as being a peer - one of the party is hosting the essence of a god, so that could get interesting. The kind of weighing up morals could be nice, though they'd still have to clear the charges - it'd be more of a character witness kind of thing.

Book devil will be screaming horrifically from pain every time they transcribe something with the locals just smiling along. Alternatively, the devils could be using the flesh of still-living damned souls as their parchment.

I also just realized one of the party has a devil they almost took up a pact with in their backstory. They'll definitely offer to sponsor the defense!

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Great Order on September 21, 2023, 04:04:58 pm

I can imagine the jury using jury nullification and the devils just sitting there absolutely dumbfounded because nobody's ever done that to them.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2023, 09:19:52 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on September 21, 2023, 02:30:27 pm

I love these. I think I could even them choose someone for the jury if they can justify their choice as being a peer - one of the party is hosting the essence of a god, so that could get interesting. The kind of weighing up morals could be nice, though they'd still have to clear the charges - it'd be more of a character witness kind of thing.

Does it count as a conflict of interest if you get a shard of a god to sit in the jury judging a host of another shard of the same entity?

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on September 21, 2023, 02:30:27 pm

Book devil will be screaming horrifically from pain every time they transcribe something with the locals just smiling along. Alternatively, the devils could be using the flesh of still-living damned souls as their parchment.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/TMKty2U.jpeg)

:]

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on September 21, 2023, 02:30:27 pm

I also just realized one of the party has a devil they almost took up a pact with in their backstory. They'll definitely offer to sponsor the defense!

Get the best defence lawyer money can't buy!

Quote from: Great Order on September 21, 2023, 04:04:58 pm

I can imagine the jury using jury nullification and the devils just sitting there absolutely dumbfounded because nobody's ever done that to them.

"We maintain that any devil who can be swindled and cheated in contracts is no devil at all, therefore no crime has been committed"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 22, 2023, 02:24:57 pm

Quote from: Loud Whispers on September 22, 2023, 09:19:52 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on September 21, 2023, 02:30:27 pm

I also just realized one of the party has a devil they almost took up a pact with in their backstory. They'll definitely offer to sponsor the defense!

Get the best defence lawyer money can't buy!

For sure. They can get Sul Skewertongue, falxugon master defense attorney, to help them with their case. I'm going to try to re-enact this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByeXMGqapnU) in an infernal courtroom. I've a mind to have him suggest the 'cheat at the trial (so we get corruption points on you)' thing - he'll immediately proceed to reveal the cheating before the court, but only to argue that such accomplished and daring cheaters should be embraced as the future pride of Hell and thus cleared of all charges for the time being. Because you absolutely should not trust your devil lawyer, even if they win you the case.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on September 26, 2023, 12:46:10 am

I would have gone with a Lionel Hutz inspired Imp for their attorney myself. An incompetent lawyer, other than being a source of levity, puts more of the onus on the players to find their own argument for why the case should be thrown out or ruled in their favour.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 28, 2023, 05:48:53 am

Quote from: Digital Hellhound on September 22, 2023, 02:24:57 pm

For sure. They can get Sul Skewertongue, falxugon master defense attorney, to help them with their case. I'm going to try to re-enact this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByeXMGqapnU) in an infernal courtroom. I've a mind to have him suggest the 'cheat at the trial (so we get corruption points on you)' thing - he'll immediately proceed to reveal the cheating before the court, but only to argue that such accomplished and daring cheaters should be embraced as the future pride of Hell and thus cleared of all charges for the time being. Because you absolutely should not trust your devil lawyer, even if they win you the case.

That's all in the game yo, right? I got the hex mark, you got the pact tome (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3i36ybA8Ms)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Digital Hellhound on September 29, 2023, 06:07:31 pm

Quote from: Grim Portent on September 26, 2023, 12:46:10 am

I would have gone with a Lionel Hutz inspired Imp for their attorney myself. An incompetent lawyer, other than being a source of levity, puts more of the onus on the players to find their own argument for why the case should be thrown out or ruled in their favour.

Yeah, that's definitely the first guy they get as a court-assigned free public defender. Even with a better lawyer, it'll be up to them to come up with a winning strategy - I'm not just going to DMPC them to victory, the smarmy devil attorney will have his own agenda.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on September 30, 2023, 05:24:30 am

A friend of mine is running Strahd for a few people, and has wanted to make it the dark, stressful, deadly experience she knows it can be, but... She's very much more of a role-player than a roll-player, and has never fully grasped combat mechanics and such.

Nearing her wits' end, she asked if I could help out with prepping an encounter, because so far she's mostly been using DnDBeyond's rating system and it's so-called "Deadly" encounters have been... Well... Stomped without breaking a sweat. To the point that the players have gotten cocky. Very cocky.


Now, I don't have any experience on that side of the DM screen, but I do know a little bit about game mechanics. ...enough to inform her that some of her players have been building/using their characters incorrectly, and by that I mean shit like the warlock using his genie's vessel basically at-will and using Flock of Familiars to get multiple imps, not to mention letting her in on the fact that Silvery Barbs (and the apparently egregious use it's seen this campaign) isn't strictly speaking a "core" spell.

So now they're, hopefully, going to get a little bit of a rude awakening. They're in prime position storywise for a big fight/ambush, and in a situation where it's perfectly reasonable that even if they do effectively wipe, it's possible for the story to move forward through mercy/hubris.


I'm not innately familiar with a lot of the mooks in the books, but there's also an excellent candidate in this fight for some player-class fuckery, and I have spent a reasonable amount of time piecing characters together... So now the party is gonna be facing up against the regular assortment of fodder, along with a level 10 Enchanter who's going to hopefully have some fun with the party's universally low INT saves. And total lack of Counterspell.


Of course, this isn't a balls-out optimized character; I didn't want to go full minmax for something that'll be fighting a group that's used to combat encounters they hardly need to think about. Also no hard disables like Hold Person or Hypnotic Pattern, because that's not particularly fun to be hit with. I do have Raulothim's Psychic Lance in there though, because the synergy with Enchanter 10 is too good to pass up and it's pretty much exactly the thing to put the fear of god Strahd into the party's powerhouses.

So, hopefully with that and the notes I jotted down to help understand the reasoning and style of play, they're gonna have a proper taste of Barovian hospitality coming up soon. Preferably without it seeming completely unfair. And without also just getting ineffectually squished within the first round or two.


For reference, the party in this case is 4-5 players at level 6, with mostly max HP rolls, with a Barbearian and a Sorlock who have been making mincemeat of her encounters. While 10 does seem like a bit of a high level for an enemy, the "Mage" template the peep was supposed to be using has spell slots akin to a level 9 Wizard, so it's not thaaaaat much of stretch :P (lies)

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 02, 2023, 05:02:00 am

DnD lethality is always a bit wonky. You've got to keep in mind that even "deadly" encounters are assuming your players are facing them after having burned through 4-5 other fights, and even then you can get stuff where your players are basically never imperilled but then get one-shot by a disintegration or an intellect devourer who end up being much more lethal than the balancing suggests. I prefer using the low fantasy gaming (https://lowfantasygaming.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/low-fantasy-gaming-21-10-16.pdf) rules for running horrors, since it strikes that nice balance between powerful players and the monsters being dangerous. If my players encounter a 5e vampire it's going to be a situation where they're all cracking jokes and dunking on it in style (in one particular headache inducing instance for me, the party paladin turned on us and initiated PvP after getting charmed. Not mind controlled - just charmed). Still killed the vampire without anyone even being close to death. But LFG vampires are fucking menaces

If your DM wants to stick to 5e and run horror, it is possible. Just got to remember terror is walking through the woods and hearing the wolves howl; horror is knowing you sent your kids into the woods to see grandma when you hear the wolves howl. So you can definitely run a horror with stronk 5e characters where the horror comes from the choices they have to make. S.T.A.L.K.E.R., F.E.A.R. and Metro2033 all come to mind of horrors where the protagonists are stronk as fuck but the horror comes from the oppressive atmosphere and choices they have to make.

There is also a very elegant solution which drastically ratchets up the pressure on 5e characters without having to sick hard-counter enemies on players or nerf them. Up short/long rest duration to something more narratively fitting for the timescale your players play at. If your players tend to go through one fight a day at most, then have a short rest be a day's rest and a long rest a week's rest. This was what I advised one of my friends who was pulling his hair out because his players just kept nuking every foe they met from orbit, and that was just because they were always going into every fight with full spell slots. But 5e is balanced around resource expenditure, e.g. spell slots or "xyz per day" abilities, on the assumption that players have 5-8 encounters between long rests. Calibrating the time period to match 5-8 encounters between long rests preserves players' power whilst keeping that feeling of players slowly being worn-down, exhausted and spent from constant survival. They're going to be able to nuke any one foe with that high power spell slot, but they've only got the one.

[As an amusing side-effect, when the game is played as intended, this really allows the rogue to shine. In narrative-style 5e games where people can take their time and enter every fight with full spell slots, the bard is just superior to the rouge. But when resource expenditure is taken into account, the rogue shines as being the only class that has no resource-dependent abilities, meaning the rogue is always at full-potential at the start, middle and end of an adventure].

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on October 02, 2023, 10:10:59 am

What she wants is a Strahd campaign where the players don't feel like they can just rush headlong into any challenge or encounter and expect to come out with nary a scratch. The party warlock had his imp hurl a severed penis into Strahd's carriage as it was passing by, because they feel like that's absolutely something they can get away with since they apparently feel they've been given no real reasons to fear him yet. And, given what the combat and challenge encounters to date have been, that's accurate. Because she simply doesn't know enough about combat to know what would make it challenging or not.

Given how they're already many sessions into the campaign and she's barely comfortable with 5e, let alone any other TTRPG, I'm not sure major changes to the system or application thereof are really the preferred solution in this case...


Going over to "gritty realism" resting could be entertaining, particularly for the potential coffeelock in the party, but would again be a very significant change to a campaign that's already established and well underway. And, again, when it comes to raw mechanics she needs as much structure and help as she can get, so making the on-the-fly adjustments needed to patch over some of the more unsavory parts of that conversion would be even more stress than she's already subjecting herself to.


Really, this is mainly about helping a burgeoning DM learn about the combat system and mechanics so that she can put actual challenges in the path of the players, and have a better understanding of what would and would not be a challenge. It's not something she's used to thinking about. ...but yes, I do absolutely agree that DnD lethality is a, uh, peculiar beast... At best.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 02, 2023, 10:40:29 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 02, 2023, 10:10:59 am

What she wants is a Strahd campaign where the players don't feel like they can just rush headlong into any challenge or encounter and expect to come out with nary a scratch. The party warlock had his imp hurl a severed penis into Strahd's carriage as it was passing by, because they feel like that's absolutely something they can get away with since they apparently feel they've been given no real reasons to fear him yet. And, given what the combat and challenge encounters to date have been, that's accurate. Because she simply doesn't know enough about combat to know what would make it challenging or not.

Given how they're already many sessions into the campaign and she's barely comfortable with 5e, let alone any other TTRPG, I'm not sure major changes to the system or application thereof are really the preferred solution in this case...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(https://i.imgur.com/ewPm6XN.jpg)

Quote from: Kagus on October 02, 2023, 10:10:59 am

Going over to "gritty realism" resting could be entertaining, particularly for the potential coffeelock in the party, but would again be a very significant change to a campaign that's already established and well underway. And, again, when it comes to raw mechanics she needs as much structure and help as she can get, so making the on-the-fly adjustments needed to patch over some of the more unsavory parts of that conversion would be even more stress than she's already subjecting herself to.

I wouldn't even describe it as gritty realism resting. It's not like GURPs resting or warhammer resting. It's just that DnD 5e is designed for exploring dungeons, assuming characters won't spend more than one or two days in the dungeon. So everything is balanced on the assumption that player chars will go through 5-8 encounters between long rests, gradually losing hit die, HP, ability charges, spell slots e.t.c. before reaching the dungeon boss

So if you run campaigns where players do 1 fight between long rests, they just absolutely rinse through foes. Your options are then to either sick really deadly encounters upon them relative to their CR (which due to 5e wonkiness can result in fights that are long but not deadly or else end up being a party wipe). Adjusting it so the rest period matches the actual in-game pace isn't a radical departure from 5e, it's how 5e balance is designed to be played. It's a common problem I think every table has struggled with at some point (hence the comic, made by someone else a year ago), where people stubbornly cling to 5e and try to use it to do things it can't do until the very end - investing more effort into forcing the square peg through the round hole than if they had just put in the mild effort to read 12 pages of another rulebook :d

Quote from: Kagus on October 02, 2023, 10:10:59 am

Really, this is mainly about helping a burgeoning DM learn about the combat system and mechanics so that she can put actual challenges in the path of the players, and have a better understanding of what would and would not be a challenge. It's not something she's used to thinking about. ...but yes, I do absolutely agree that DnD lethality is a, uh, peculiar beast... At best.

5e is an impenetrable mess for new DMs to learn how to appropriately place challenges for players, especially when they're doing sweaty rule-bending metagaming. For the sake of their sanity I strongly advise against trying to pit a DM on training wheels against people who make coffielocks, not characters :P

Like it's a hell of a lot of work for new DMs to know how all the class interactions & spell descriptions & DPS action economy nonsense works vs using a simpler, better system. I don't get how so many people laud the simplicity of 5e but then when it's player turns it's 3 minutes of checking spell descriptions. Even harder work for a DM trying to keep track of what spell combos and shenanigens they're going to sik on NPCs with unlimited rest spellworks, bad faith spell accounting & rules lawyering

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on October 02, 2023, 11:24:16 am

"Gritty Realism" is specifically the term used in the DMG to describe the "short rest is a day, long rest is a week" rest variant :P So yes, it's 5e's concept of what gritty realism is... Which, yes, is rather telling.


As for swapping systems, she doesn't exist in a vacuum... While it might be entirely possible to convince her that swapping systems is the best bet, her players are also predominantly 5e players who would need to be convinced of the move. And, more likely than not, rebuilding all their characters again. I've little doubt that she'd be happier in a different system more suited to her inherent DMing style, but I'm not really sure this current group (of personal friends and acquaintances, not expendably faceless randos) would allow her to switch with them remaining onboard.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on October 02, 2023, 01:23:45 pm

I don't think I've ever even seen a group that manages to fit in the expected rate of encounters into a D&D 'adventuring day,' most D&D combat is tedious as hell, traps are trivially bypassed with no resources 90% or more of the time, and it takes long enough just to cover the actually relevant exploration and social scenarios. It always winds up with one or two small fights that are basically jokes, or one big fight that's actually hard but still leaves us with so much magic that we can splash it about on trivial nonsense. D&D 5e is very dumbed down and simplified towards the goal of white room bonk the enemies to death and move on to the next room in the dungeon type of play, not that the other editions were ever great at other things either.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: NJW2000 on October 03, 2023, 03:54:18 am

I don’t know much about DND, but if narrative is her thing and the players are munchkins, would it be a faux pas to introduce tricky supernatural horror machinations they have to solve rather than fight through?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on October 03, 2023, 04:44:44 am

Not at all; I believe she's even made some attempts towards that end a couple times previously in the campaign. I think they've just been rolling quite well for the occasions where that sort of thing shows up (and, there too, the mechanics question of "what is an appropriate DC for this"), and as referenced this isn't exactly the best system for things that aren't "roll d20 to see if you solve it"... But she still quite likes things like that, she just also would like to have combat challenges that actually push back a little bit.


Also I was wrong before, she does have experience from/with Pathfinder 1e. Although I believe that was predominantly as a player

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on October 03, 2023, 06:43:57 pm

Huh, I recall us being scared stiff during strahd, mostly cuz we kept getting too big for ouR boots and dying whenever we weren’t. Then being trapped in the cycle of barovian mystic reincarnation and coming back to life with some curse.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on October 04, 2023, 06:59:40 am

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the feeling she wants to go for... Just hasn't figured out how to kill them yet :P

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on October 04, 2023, 07:12:20 am

Quote from: Kagus on October 02, 2023, 11:24:16 am

"Gritty Realism" is specifically the term used in the DMG to describe the "short rest is a day, long rest is a week" rest variant :P So yes, it's 5e's concept of what gritty realism is... Which, yes, is rather telling.

Oh god I forgot about that cursedness

Quote from: Kagus on October 02, 2023, 11:24:16 am

As for swapping systems, she doesn't exist in a vacuum... While it might be entirely possible to convince her that swapping systems is the best bet, her players are also predominantly 5e players who would need to be convinced of the move. And, more likely than not, rebuilding all their characters again. I've little doubt that she'd be happier in a different system more suited to her inherent DMing style, but I'm not really sure this current group (of personal friends and acquaintances, not expendably faceless randos) would allow her to switch with them remaining onboard.

Yeah I faced the exact same problems with my group, 3/4 of whom were 5e onlies. At some point you just have to bite the bullet - either accepting 5e power stronk overwhelming chars and monster HP bloat or switch systems

Quote from: Grim Portent on October 02, 2023, 01:23:45 pm

I don't think I've ever even seen a group that manages to fit in the expected rate of encounters into a D&D 'adventuring day,' most D&D combat is tedious as hell, traps are trivially bypassed with no resources 90% or more of the time, and it takes long enough just to cover the actually relevant exploration and social scenarios. It always winds up with one or two small fights that are basically jokes, or one big fight that's actually hard but still leaves us with so much magic that we can splash it about on trivial nonsense. D&D 5e is very dumbed down and simplified towards the goal of white room bonk the enemies to death and move on to the next room in the dungeon type of play, not that the other editions were ever great at other things either.

I once had one cursed game where our DM went utterly overboard with the encounters to the point where there were goblins behind us, goblins to the right, goblins to the left, crossing the road were goblins, going through the warehouse was goblins and goblins are paradropping from the sky. Then we got attacked by a level 28 god of pestilence even though we were level 5 lol

Game did not last very long at all

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Persus13 on October 04, 2023, 09:02:25 am

When I played Curse of Strahd I generally wasn't worried about the party being in danger as much as the NPCs our party befriended being in danger of being retaliated against by Strahd. Although for me dying is exciting since it means I can make a new character.

Of course that tactic requires players who are capable of building relationships with NPCs.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: sodafoutain on October 04, 2023, 12:03:11 pm

The mention of Coffeelock still upsets me. 5e's rules being such as they are, I don't understand why people haven't jumped ship to Pathfinder, or any other system. However, CoS is explicitly written  for 5e, which as it's been said, is designed to have many encounters between long rests. I'd advocate that they shouldn't treat combat as the only kind of encounter, and create something like intrigue 'encounters' that give players opportunity to use utility spells to drain their resources as well. Fighting seven groups of enemies is infeasible, but fighting two to three groups and interrogating others using spells like zone of truth and whatnot is likely more feasible.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Grim Portent on October 04, 2023, 06:20:03 pm

That is technically the case, but most non-combat encounters, being social, exploration and traps, take basically no resources at all to deal with.

A social encounter usually takes no resources ime, because PCs are quicker to turn to mundane torture than to magic when trying to force answers out of an NPC, or have expertise in social skills and convince them to be helpful willingly before anything like coercion even comes up. A social character can have a +9 to Persuasion at level 1 in 5e depending on your stat generation method.

Exploration is neutered by the fact that rules for movement are so generous. Climbing and swimming don't take tests under normal circumstances, darkvision is ubiquitous and light magic is free anyway, and there are several abilities that boil down to 'you don't get lost and always have food.'

Traps are just meh design in the first place. Oh no, a pit in an illogical place, whatever shall we do? 5e makes this worse since you can just climb past them using the rules as they are, but a lot of PCs can trivially jump over a pit, get thrown a rope and pass through with no resource attrition. Fantasy style traps take me out of the game world anyway,* so I'm not generous to them, but I've never encountered ones that actually caused problems except for automatic machine gun turrets in a sci fi game, and they were immobile enemies more than traps.


*They're the equivalent of pointing a shotgun trap at your front door and then having to use the damn thing everyday. I don't know about you, but I don't want sliced in half by a giant guillotine because I forgot to disarm the traps when I was coming back in after popping to the shops for milk. They just remind me that the enemies aren't real people.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on October 05, 2023, 06:55:21 am

Yeah, the impression I've gotten is that she's implemented a number of such non-combat trials and tribulations, but everything so far has been trivialized by A) Deceptomancy, B) Sending the invisible imp into it, or C) Some spell she didn't know about being an auto-solve button.

With a small smattering of "Well we had no other options, but this last-resort d20 rolled a 19"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on November 27, 2023, 07:53:50 am

It would seem that I completely forgot to post in here about how things turned out!

Got the character set up so she could plug him in to the encounter, and I told her that if anything came up during the battle that I'd be available on Discord. The battle started and she had begun losing hope as the dude began hemorrhaging HP, but then she remembered that she had the Bullshit Hotline on speed dial.

I got a status update on the battlefield, reminded her of tactics and abilities that were available, and provided some suggestions for what to do with target priority and how to handle some of their bullshit... And the battle started to turn again. One player after another countered, repelled, brought down, and put to sleep... And one bard who was abducted during the fight after being lured away by the promise of a reunion with hot random NPC from earlier they'd fixated on.


Finally nearly everyone was either down or otherwise indisposed, except for one blinking cleric with incredibly lucky rolls to remain blinked... In desperation, the cleric beseeched their god for aid in this trying time. DM texted me saying that they weren't familiar with the god and so didn't know how they'd respond to that.

I asked which god, in the off chance that maybe they'd picked one of the ones I had some small knowledge of so I could help out.

Turns out, they had.

"Cyric", came the text back... And I started cackling.



She whipped up an impossible ultimatum. The player first started pacing the room frantically while grappling with this choice, then was on the floor for a bit, then left the room entirely to agonize some more... Before finally making their dreadful choice according to the character's personality and history, and getting whisked away from the game as well. Effectively a party wipe, but with much more drama.

So, end result, everyone was thrilled and had a fantastic evening! While the unconscious chars were set to be imprisoned for a breakout, I think everyone decided to roll up new ones anyway. And a grim precedent has been set that yes, Barovia absolutely can be deadly!


...which apparently has prompted the Warlock dude to now roll up an Echo Knight instead :P More fun times and bullshittery await!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 10, 2023, 06:37:25 am

Was my first time on the other side of the screen last night! I'd previously gotten coerced into running a game by a couple friends who had "unanimously agreed" that I was the best option for running their first game of DnD, so I spent the last week throwing together a one-shot for them to sink their teeth into.

Naturally, things devolved into chaos from basically the word "go"... And with some incredibly squishy newbies, I ended up having to pull quite a few punches that were otherwise available to me (goblins are frankly terrifying for their CR if played tactically), but I think I managed to do so more or less fluidly and naturally so it wasn't obvious what I was doing.

...in any case; two downs and all available healing expended later, they successfully made it through the module with no deaths! A decently successful one-shot, I daresay! ...So successful, in fact, that they immediately pushed me into agreeing to run session 2, on the 22nd. So now I gotta figure out the heck that's gonna be.


Was kinda cute though... The after-session banter included the Rogue stating "Yeah, I'm pretty sure [Kagus] was trying to wipe us in that room there... But cunning action and sneak attack pulled through!", meanwhile I'm just smiling and going over in my head all the like 6-7 different things I did to desperately try and keep them alive for that fight :P

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 10, 2023, 07:05:02 am

Flee for your life

You are already 1 step closer to forever GM

On that note I nearly cried yesterday because I told a player who wanted to join my table to read the rules and make a character sheet... And they did the fucking madman

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 17, 2023, 06:41:38 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on December 10, 2023, 07:05:02 am

On that note I nearly cried yesterday because I told a player who wanted to join my table to read the rules and make a character sheet... And they did the fucking madman

Absolute insanity! Things were much more reasonable here; with me having to carefully walk two STEM professionals through the delicate process of adding your proficiency bonus and stat modifier to things! Although as a side note, the way 5E handles stats is completely nonsensical and I don't blame them in the slightest for getting confused by it.

Me: "Alright, there are a few different places with digital character sheets that will do the calculations for you and can be easily adjusted and shared with me"

Sorceress: "No, I wanna print them out! I like paper."

And so she did. ...and then she also went and printed out THE ENTIRE SRD to have a copy of the rules with her. Has she read through it? Goodness no. But the paper is there, which is just as good obviously.

Also when I say "very squishy newbies", I mean the sorceress has an AC of 10 and not a single defensive spell or ability. The Wild Magic sorceress. Not what I was expecting of someone who's played as much BG3 on Tactician as she has :P


As an aside, I just went with a sort of nondescript disconnected reality for running the one-shot, since it gave me the topography I needed without having to get embroiled in established lore and locations, so we're technically officially off-Faerûn.

Because of this, I am now getting bombarded with questions about why isn't it Faerûn, how many continents are there, is it mostly land or water, how many cities are in the country we're in, what are they all called etc... So there's been a lot of "Does your character know? No? Then shut yer gob" as I hastily try and patch together something resembling the city which they are going to be arriving in next session.


And only after getting started on making the damn thing myself, did I hear about Procgen Arcana (https://watabou.github.io/) for slapping together a framework/inspiration for the dang thing... Meh.

At least I've made some progress on the main thing; which is getting a basic gist of how things can potentially move forward from the variety of options that will be available to them once in the city.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 17, 2023, 03:14:01 pm

Quote from: Kagus on December 17, 2023, 06:41:38 am

Absolute insanity! Things were much more reasonable here; with me having to carefully walk two STEM professionals through the delicate process of adding your proficiency bonus and stat modifier to things! Although as a side note, the way 5E handles stats is completely nonsensical and I don't blame them in the slightest for getting confused by it.

I had a player who graduated 1st class biochemistry and had an MBA tell me that calculating degrees of success was too complicated

You just divide by 10

Quote from: Kagus on December 17, 2023, 06:41:38 am

And so she did. ...and then she also went and printed out THE ENTIRE SRD to have a copy of the rules with her. Has she read through it? Goodness no. But the paper is there, which is just as good obviously.

It's like a bible. You just use it to slap demons and inspire confidence in the soul

Quote from: Kagus on December 17, 2023, 06:41:38 am

Because of this, I am now getting bombarded with questions about why isn't it Faerûn, how many continents are there, is it mostly land or water, how many cities are in the country we're in, what are they all called etc... So there's been a lot of "Does your character know? No? Then shut yer gob" as I hastily try and patch together something resembling the city which they are going to be arriving in next session.

I remember once one of my DMs had pure suffering when he set up some open world sandbox campaign that started with a cool prison break from a skyship prison. When we crash-landed, we had the option of going West (the place half the party was enslaved in) North (to the place the other half of the party was enslaved in) or East (the place we were being sent to and now fugitives from). So we all agreed it was the best choice to go south, into the deserts, where at least we would only have to worry about dying of thirst instead of being constantly on the run.

Our DM asked us in a very sad voice; "really?"

The desert was the one place he thought we wouldn't go and did no preparation for. Out of politeness we decided suddenly that perhaps going East was reasonable for reasons we could discover later

[it did not turn out reasonable]
[we were treated as fugitives on the run]

Quote from: Kagus on December 17, 2023, 06:41:38 am

At least I've made some progress on the main thing; which is getting a basic gist of how things can potentially move forward from the variety of options that will be available to them once in the city.

ya always about presenting interesting choices for players. If it's not an interesting choice I just give it as free description

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 17, 2023, 03:42:03 pm

Aye; the way I see it, there are predominantly three main things they'll want to/wind up doing once they're in town. Most likely, they'll follow one of the other caravan passengers to the rich uncle the guy promised would be able to reward the party for the guy's son. Next likely, they'll try and find somewhere to suss out what exactly this shiny magic sword they've picked up is supposed to be. Least, they'll try and find the alchemist they shook down during the wagon ride to see if he has more stuff they can bully him for.

Now, each of those eventualities has something approaching a direction to go in if they actually take that choice... Uncle scoffs and tries to get them to prove their worth by fixing up some business in the woods out west, sword-researching will point them to the mage college which should lead to them meeting a researcher trying to get an expedition into the ruined undercity down below, and the alchemist will be pissed as hell to see their faces again so calls in some contacts from the main thieves guild to teach them a lesson.

Each of those three can lead to the party getting wind that things be fucky-wucky as of late, in one aspect or another... While potentially opening up opportunities to do other things with more short-term goals than the core reveal, which I'm hoping to push back for quite a while as they're nowhere near ready to deal with something like that yet, either as characters or as players...

And it's all stuff that can stick around for after they focus on one of the other branches, so I've got some content backlog as buffer! ...and if they just piss off and do something else entirely, well, at least I won't have to come up with anything important :P



I do of course fear that I'm overprepping, but I'm still just bleedingly fresh out of the oven and these are concrete examples I want to have answers to if approached.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 18, 2023, 05:20:48 am

No such thing as overprepping when your players have free rein to go off rails. It's like your job is to be a libertarian road builder; prepare for off-road dirt track racing across the known world

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 22, 2023, 05:58:20 am

Eh, I mean... Yes, but also no from a certain point of view. "Overprep" in my mind is more "spending time and energy prepping stuff that cannot/will not actually become relevant", and since I'm still a wee babby I do not yet trust in my ability to make shit up on the fly (or have resources to just pull from as such), so I try and make content ahead of time for all the things I think I might need to run semi-sensibly. Which is also definitely not a streamlined process at the moment.


Game time in a few hours, so it's nice that I was up until 1:30 last night working out what this continent, kingdom, and region are called. ...crap, still need a name for the world at large :P Ah well.


In other news, the absolute hilarity of Xanathar's random encounter tables. What the shit. Oh yeah, an appropriate grassland encounter for a level 1-5 party is... A CR8 T-Rex. Or possibly even worse, 1d2 couatls, who punch so high above their weight class it's not even funny. Sure, couatls are at least lawful good intelligent critters who are perfectly fine with peacable resolutions... But the party either has to be aware of what these things are or naturally good-natured, because if shit does go down you're up against something which will not only wipe the floor with most every challenger, it also has a base flying speed that casually keeps pace with a rogue double-dashing...

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Frumple on December 22, 2023, 08:53:02 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 22, 2023, 05:58:20 am

...crap, still need a name for the world at large :P Ah well.

Dlrow is a classic. Maybe fancy it up a bit so it looks more like a word, or just roll with it :P

... though Dlrow Egralta actually looks a lot like a decent fantasy name. Might not even have to change anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 22, 2023, 03:59:58 pm

Yeah, I'm thinking of probably going a bit more Spansk-oriented with a "Mundo" or "Orb of Mundo" angle... But who knows! I haven't been asked yet, so there's still room for fuckery!

Tonight's session went quite well! The party accomplished absolutely nothing! Not a single one of my three threads, despite knocking into barely two of the three potentials...  No combats, just a lot of RP and fucking about. Glorious stuff! And now they're not only endebted to the one, they're also formally associated with the other and directly associated with the third, so they're multiple directions of fucked for next session!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Cthulhu on December 23, 2023, 11:09:10 am

I'm a staunch member of the "a given piece of content should take less time to prep than it does to run" but that can take a while to get into.  It's mandatory for sanity though.  I know the critical role guy says the opposite but DMing is his job so his situation is entirely different.

I'm kind of variable on giving players freedom.  On one hand yes you have to that's what D&D is, but I think there's an unwritten social contract here and one end of it is not making the DM's job impossible.  I will occasionally tell my players "okay I don't have anything prepped for that avenue so put a pin in it for the moment and we can come back to that later."

At the same time, you usually have a good feel for what the players are going to do in a given situation. Some more than others.  If your adventure starts with orcs attacking the local puppy orphanage, for most groups you don't need to prep anything for the players joining up with the orcs because most groups won't even think of doing that. You can compare it to like Baldur's Gate 3 (and why I think it's a bad idea to look at video games as an example of how to structure an adventure). If you were prepping BG3 for a tabletop campaign it'd be perfectly reasonable to spend zero time on the "players join minthara and attack the refugees" storyline because they're almost certainly not going to take that path. And if they do intend to take it, you'll probably have advance warning that they're that kind of group and can start prepping it after it's clear they're going to.

Though that can also be a problem. I've played with a lot of people who, for various reasons, take the DM's presentation of the world as a coded message on what they're supposed to do. And will never do things out of the ordinary.  Or will even openly discuss my description of the situation like they're trying to figure out what I want them to do.  Or even ask me! Very few things get me as salty/discouraged as a player just openly saying "so we're supposed to do X right?" Last game I actually explicitly forbid my players from asking me that and wouldn't even reply.

That got kind of meandering. What it boils down to is I think ideally players have freedom to solve situations however they feel is appropriate within the bounds of the adventure.  It's not against the rules to say "don't do that yet please" if they ask to do something completely outside what you're prepared to run.

As far as designing what you are prepared to run goes I like to design a sort of toolbox rather than a story.  Defining all the characters, their goals and resources for achieving those goals, the important locations, etc.  And a rough timeline of what will happen if the players never get involved (which should always be one of the worst possible outcomes, because otherwise there's no need for heroic intervention).  Then it's like...

1. Trigger inciting event/situation that hooks the players.
2. Players respond to the inciting event and then go about interacting with your situation.
3. Consider how this affects your timeline, how the major NPCs' goals are advanced/hindered
4. Decide their response to this. Do they seek the PCs' help? Do they try to manipulate them, or try to neutralize them?
5. If the NPCs' have new goals, figure out how they go about achieving them using the resources they have
6. Adjust your timeline accordingly (I did say rough right? Keep the timeline rough because every player action will alter it)

I always recommend this. (https://thealexandrian.net/gamemastery-101)  Adventure writing is a complicated balance between giving the players freedom to chart their own path while at the same time not driving yourself insane or making the game aimless.  Those articles all give a lot of good advice on balancing it properly.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 24, 2023, 05:48:40 am

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 23, 2023, 11:09:10 am

I'm a staunch member of the "a given piece of content should take less time to prep than it does to run" but that can take a while to get into.  It's mandatory for sanity though.  I know the critical role guy says the opposite but DMing is his job so his situation is entirely different.

Yeah, or at the very least if you're taking the time to prep it have it be something you would enjoy regardless of the outcome. It can't be helped that sometimes you come up with some gordian knot mystery and the players find some way to cut straight through it

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 23, 2023, 11:09:10 am

I'm kind of variable on giving players freedom.  On one hand yes you have to that's what D&D is, but I think there's an unwritten social contract here and one end of it is not making the DM's job impossible.  I will occasionally tell my players "okay I don't have anything prepped for that avenue so put a pin in it for the moment and we can come back to that later."

I just see it as running one of three types of games

-Quest, go do a thing. Fairly easy to keep on the rails organically
-Narrative, players jump through a sequence of connected events. Middling ease
-Open world, players set their own goals. No rails
So I ask my players ahead of time what kind of game they want (and make sure to establish what they mean because I've had tremendously painful experiences with every player asking for open world when they wanted a quest).

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 23, 2023, 11:09:10 am

Though that can also be a problem. I've played with a lot of people who, for various reasons, take the DM's presentation of the world as a coded message on what they're supposed to do. And will never do things out of the ordinary.  Or will even openly discuss my description of the situation like they're trying to figure out what I want them to do.  Or even ask me! Very few things get me as salty/discouraged as a player just openly saying "so we're supposed to do X right?" Last game I actually explicitly forbid my players from asking me that and wouldn't even reply.

1 trillion percent in agreement. I've had two players do this and both were used to DMing 5e on their own tables where they had solutions players were supposed to find, things players were supposed to do, and were not accustomed to RPing as a character - more like moving pieces

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 23, 2023, 11:09:10 am

It's not against the rules to say "don't do that yet please" if they ask to do something completely outside what you're prepared to run.

Hahaha I once asked my players "I don't mind if you exterminatus the entire planet but in character and out of character, have a great reason to do it before you do it. Otherwise all of my notes go up in nuclear fire without anyone seeing it."

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 23, 2023, 11:09:10 am

As far as designing what you are prepared to run goes I like to design a sort of toolbox rather than a story.  Defining all the characters, their goals and resources for achieving those goals, the important locations, etc.  And a rough timeline of what will happen if the players never get involved (which should always be one of the worst possible outcomes, because otherwise there's no need for heroic intervention).  Then it's like...

1. Trigger inciting event/situation that hooks the players.
2. Players respond to the inciting event and then go about interacting with your situation.
3. Consider how this affects your timeline, how the major NPCs' goals are advanced/hindered
4. Decide their response to this. Do they seek the PCs' help? Do they try to manipulate them, or try to neutralize them?
5. If the NPCs' have new goals, figure out how they go about achieving them using the resources they have
6. Adjust your timeline accordingly (I did say rough right? Keep the timeline rough because every player action will alter it)

I always recommend this. (https://thealexandrian.net/gamemastery-101)  Adventure writing is a complicated balance between giving the players freedom to chart their own path while at the same time not driving yourself insane or making the game aimless.  Those articles all give a lot of good advice on balancing it properly.

This is all how I do it, with two additions. 1. Interesting choices, 2. Interesting fights.

Interesting choices make up the most time-sink of the non-numbers crunch prepwork for me. But whenever players are exploring, if there are no interesting choices to make I just describe the exploration to them. If there is an interesting choice to be made (e.g. take the short, quick and dangerous route, or the long and time consuming but safe route) then I work on adding the atmospheric description stuff and populating their choices with obvious obstacles & rewards. Meeting new people, I think what interesting choices can I add here. What can these people do for my players, both positive and hostile.

The interesting fights is really just a continuation of this design philosophy. So traps aren't hidden, but shown. Many of them are not even things players would recognise as traps. E.g. a shallow pool with a hungry gator sitting by it. A cauldron full of acid or a rotten floorboard that looks like it's going to collapse. Players have great fun trying to bypass or take advantage of these kinds of things, so the more information and meaningful choices they get the better. I also use Dwarf Fortress personality traits and combat lethality as a rough brush to get an idea for more important NPCs (I use a table that auto-rolls their traits) whilst for the generic NPC templates I just scribble down the important stuff like "these dock workers are fiercely loyal to their foreman" or "the office workers are despondent and visibly exhausted."

For the combat notes I put what kind of combat actions they're likely to take. A kill-team squad is going to behave very differently from a mob of zombies, a panicked mob of servants, a chaos champion or an elite bounty hunter team. E.g:

-Kill team squad is fiercely loyal and well-organised. They are very resourceful and very tolerant of casualties, but will not leave injured soldiers behind. When they encountered my players, their vanguard breached the room with armoured shields, smoke grenades and las carbines. Behind them were elite riflemen armed with hellguns, bringing with them an anti-aircraft servitor equipped with hydra flak cannons. The men with the las carbines and the flak would keep suppressive fire on enemy targets while the men with the hell guns would take careful aim and place kill shots. Whilst the riflemen placed kill shots, the men with the las carbines would push the battle line forward, throwing grenades at anyone in cover. Their objective, which they prioritised above all else, was to extract the noble patriarch - the same target the players were trying to eliminate.

-The mob of zombies is fearless but hollow. The most intelligent plan it is still capable of is pretending to be dead, picking up a rock or a pipe as a weapon, or pleading for help. Their objective is to shamble towards whoever is healthy and make more zombies. If they don't see anyone healthy they just imitate what they did when they were still sane to the best of their ability, going through the motions of cooking/working/conversing e.t.c.
Despite being weak, will always try to finish off any players who are injured or downed first, so players don't treat them light heartedly! I also used DF logic on undead... Which is to say that removing the head usually killed the zombie, but not always. That came as quite a shock ;]

-The panicked mob of servants I just use to stat any servant NPC they encounter in the palace. If one of these poor lads or ladies ends up in combat, they do their best to dodge fire, run away from anyone melee and if possible, hide. If all else fails they will throw a vase at the offending attacker, and then try running away. If they have a gun, they will keep it for moral support, however they will not use it on a living person except as an absolute last resort [zombies count. Most of the zombies were people they knew].

-The chaos champion will attack the players if they're visibly armoured and armed. He'll alternate between all out attacks, swift jabs and will prefer to block their hits than dodge. He'll never escalate violence, and if players grapple him he'll contest to try and reverse the grapple. If players pass out from fatigue or surrender he stops the fight. Throughout the fight he'll talk about how much he loves his wif with all his lif, or how great the sun shining is, all whilst drop kicking them, charging into them, throwing them into walls. If he defeats them, he thanks them for a good fight and leaves. If they fight dishonourably, he draws his sword and starts fighting no holds quarter. If they fight honourably, defeat him, he requests to be slain. If they still spare him, he feels terribly ashamed and gives them a summoning stone if they ever need help dying gloriously in battle.

-The bounty hunter team will attempt to capture the players, kill anyone around them and get out. If they can't capture the players, will kill them. If the fight goes badly for them or lasts too long, will attempt a fighting retreat. Half-ogryn gunner will do the suppressive fire to keep them pinned and stop them flying around. The sniper will attempt to shoot out their power-armour from behind to disable their power packs, making capturing them easy. The scout will attempt to ambush them from concealment, hitting them with a haywire grenade to disable their power armour/weapons and then unload with his combat shotgun. Their boss will run in close with his webber pistol and needlegun if taking them alive is possible, otherwise he'll use his plasma pistol and bolt pistol. If they're able to capture even one of the players their comms guy will attempt to call for extraction. Comms guy will avoid combat at all costs. Boss man will not endanger his men if it's futile. His men will flee or surrender if the boss is killed.

All these little details give more flavour and colour to the world, in a way that also gives players more tactical choices and considerations. E.g. a large predatory bird is NOT okay to leave around downed players, as they will grab them and drag them back to its nest to feed to its young. Conversely, leaving downed players around an enemy black knight is fine, because for all their evil, they are a knight and have promised to look after their source of ransom.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 24, 2023, 06:37:15 am

Yeah, I think a lot of it is just practice and getting the proper mental framework for what's necessary and what isn't. Like, while I want to provide the feeling of freedom from a "sandbox", I recognize that attempting to define every grain of sand is a fool's errand. On the flip side, I also recognize that one of the first things a player in a "sandbox" will do is try to find out where the walls are. Especially new players who have only just been introduced to the idea of TTRPGs.

Quote from: Cthulhu on December 23, 2023, 11:09:10 am

I've played with a lot of people who, for various reasons, take the DM's presentation of the world as a coded message on what they're supposed to do. And will never do things out of the ordinary.  Or will even openly discuss my description of the situation like they're trying to figure out what I want them to do.  Or even ask me! Very few things get me as salty/discouraged as a player just openly saying "so we're supposed to do X right?" Last game I actually explicitly forbid my players from asking me that and wouldn't even reply.

I got some related questions/comments around last session... "Man, we're probably going WAY off the main plot now", and "So how far off the main plot are we?"

I just answered that "Whatever path you're on is the main plot", which is more or less the truth. Sure, they're not taking the path I'd designed the most content for, but it's still a path leading somewhere. And they've been plenty good about making their own content with the amount of nonsense they're getting up to...

Spoiler: Recap-ish thing I guess (click to show/hide)

But yeah, I had three main paths I figured they'd want to look at, so each one was a question ("What happens if/Can we do this?") that I wanted a clear answer to. So that's predominantly what I made content for, the rest is left in wibbly-wobblyville.

They had a fairly strong hook pointing towards the rich uncle, so they've talked with him a bit and received a job and some advance payment because the uncle is a jackass who doesn't want to just hand out a reward to "vagabonds" without them showing that they're capable (of furthering his own plans) first.

But rather than head out immediately, they opted to look around for potions and supplies first since it was a market day... And if they hadn't specifically said "I'd like to see if anyone looks like a gullible potion-seller", they would've just found a perfectly standard stall with the normally ludicrous prices listed in the PHB. But they did ask for that specifically, and so they found the rather shabby storefront of the alchemist they'd shaken down on the trip here.

The party staunchly unwilling to reimburse him for the potions they'd taken, he wasn't very willing to cooperate... But while being a legitimately gifted alchemist, I'd decided before that this fellow doesn't have the best of judgement in other areas of life, so he tried to pull a fast one on the party by giving them "something that will deal with all their problems".

I'd originally intended for him to have ties with the major thieves guild in town, which would then be one of the three main paths when they get jumped by goons as a favor to the alchemist and either win and drag the party to the guild, or get whupped and leave a trail they could follow... But since the party was already kinda heading in that direction in search of "the cheapest inn", I opted to leave the ambush out.

Party immediately recognized that this thing was a bomb or otherwise unpleasant device, so... Tried gingerly selling it to everyone they could think of in the market before giving up and heading to the rowdy slum tavern... Where they promptly tried to sell it to the tavernkeeper.

He wasn't particularly willing to touch the thing, but with a couple glances and nods with inconspicuous figures located around the room, he opened up a hatch and shuttled the players "Down there, straight across, knock on the door".

Me: "The stairwell is quite dark, but the elf is able to see well enough to make her way down. Would either of you two others like to use a light?"

Sorceress: "I have a torch I can use!"

Fighter: "I have an ancient magical sword that shines brightly when I command it to do so"

Me: "...so, you'd like to head down there holding the intricately decorated glowing magical sword out in front of you?"

Fighter: "...yes?"

Sorc: [quietly] "Why is he being so cagey about the sword being intricately decorated?"


So they ventured down into the depths there, were let in, got to talk with the mysterious head of the thieves guild with features that the players commented they "didn't know enough about the bestiary to identify" (joke's on you, this shit's homebrew), sold the bomb to him, and were welcomed to spend the rest of their time in the finest rooms in the tavern as guests of the guildmaster.

And as they were drinking to celebrate their good fortune in meeting such a polite and helpful individual, a couple hours later they noticed two burly men carrying a struggling someone with a build remarkably similar to the alchemist quickly head down into the hatch and disappear.

The next morning, after a variety of failed perception rolls, they awoke to find notes placed next to their beds politely informing them that the guildmaster requests their presence again that evening.


...so they've handed a bomb of unknown strength over to the most powerful criminal organization in the city and indebted themselves to its leader in the process, and also placed themselves on a conflicting timeline with a job they've already taken partial payment for (from one of the city's most established men). Plus resulted in the capture and unfortunate circumstances of a potentially helpful NPC, and also waved around a blatantly magical artifact in the middle of a den of criminals.

So, yeah, all things considered... I think it went rather well!

As far as fixed timelines and other consequences are concerned, I... I dunno. Yes I do have some plans/ideas relating to that lined up, but I don't really feel comfortable being very strict with them given how this is legitimately the first TTRPG experience for 2/3rds of the party. I don't want to risk them feeling like they've been "gotcha'd" by not looking at the clock or "not finding the main plot".

I'm probably going to, again, try and give the impression that there's a ticking clock, but not actually hold an axe over their head until they notice it's actually there.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 24, 2023, 06:44:24 am

I was half expecting the "this will solve all of your problems" bag of alchemic concoctions to just be a bunch of narcotic substances, island of the lotus eaters style. Lol "why does he keep mentioning it's intricately detailed?" paranoia setting in, very relatable

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 24, 2023, 06:53:43 am

Something druggy/poisonous probably would've been a much smarter course of action, but as mentioned he doesn't always make the best decisions... And was just angry with these "thugs" coming in and not only refusing to reimburse him (as they'd promised to do during the caravan ride), but in fact demanding even more free stuff for "saving his life", so when thinking of a solution to these problems standing in front of him, he went for a more cathartic route than logical.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 24, 2023, 06:56:23 am

tfw you shortchange Ted Kaczynski

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Frumple on December 24, 2023, 08:54:08 am

I've long just kinda' wondered about crime and banditry and general social abuses in settings like D&D (and especially Xianxia), 'cause, like, it's almost always depicted as as-bad or worse than what we see in a less extreme setting, but you're dealing with a scenario where the random hobo or caravan occupant you're trying to shake down for change might be able to crack a dragon's skull with their thighs, and it doesn't make sense for such things to be operating in any way that'd look familiar to us.

Great swaths of those depictions also involve showing a likely scenario for such behavior (i.e. they run into a murderhobo band or golden thumbed nonsense cultivator or something and get smooshed), and you'd think the culture would be, just... noticeably different. Because of it. Much more cautious, etc. Less likely to do something that'd trip over someone with a pocket fireball or seventy-seven finger death punch.

Like, I get it's a narrative conflict thing and the DMs or writers or whatever are doing it because of the common (albeit incorrect!) perception there must be conflict and specific sorts of conflict for a story to proceed, but it's always just kinda' rubbed me wrong. Criminals and abusers aren't dumb all that often, barring pretty debilitating issues they're not going to be super stupid about who they target under most circumstances, so basically every interaction seen being one sort or another getting roadkilled by a protagonist-equivalent due to being super stupid about who they target is just. Doesn't feel right, y'know? If they're still alive as an established adult bandit or whatev' they should know better than to shortchange ted kaczynski, 'cause the ones that don't should have already been mulched!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on December 24, 2023, 10:21:55 am

Your either A, making a lot of flawed presumptions about the likelyhood of a random hobo or caravan occupant being able to crack a dragon's skull with their thighs; or B, not acknowledging that the random bandit would be equally likely to be able to crack a dragon's skull with their thighs as either of them

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on December 24, 2023, 02:31:51 pm

We might assume that most powerful people are dressed and equipped for the part and bandits know to leave them alone or approach and act friendly and try to get hired as grunts. While the raggedy beggar who happens to be a swordmaster who can strike down god is a relatively more rare occurrence which just gets more focused on narratively because it's a fun trope.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 24, 2023, 07:01:16 pm

Xianxia bandit logic is pretty straightforward. If you're some bandit mook, you work for the Ten Thousand Bones of Creation Bandit Demon King who will kill you if you don't challenge this one homeless man. The likelihood of the homeless man being someone who can break a mountain in half with the clap of his arsecheeks is immaterial in the face of certain over awe power

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 24, 2023, 07:03:59 pm

As with the random American gun-nut looking for an excuse to blast a would-be mugger with their handcannon, there are both plenty enough defenseless people for the desperate muggers to hope they hit instead of said gun-nut, and almost certainly ways for the trained eye to tell the difference.

Just because there are significant risks involved with a given method of procuring wealth doesn't mean they can always stand up to the desperation inspired by the certainty of starvation if you don't.



...also in this case the shake-downers were PCs, who as we all know are agents of unabashed chaos. First one just tried to pretend that they were a duke from the capital and would reward him handsomely upon their arrival if they received help. So the alchemist gave a free sample and offered lower prices on the remaining bottles.

...but then the sorceress noticed that "hey, this guy has free potions of healing", and made the argument that had it not been for them then the alchemist would've certainly been another casualty of the ambush, and still could be... Then the dragonborn decided they wanted a pot too, so they dragonborned.

A short while later they stared menacingly at him again to make him cough up his personal defense molotovs, leaving him not only without wares but also defenseless, and with not so much as a dirty penny to show for it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on December 29, 2023, 02:48:32 pm

I did an dnd

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 29, 2023, 04:26:10 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 29, 2023, 02:48:32 pm

I did an dnd

did u win

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on December 30, 2023, 04:16:21 am

The true win was the fun we had along the way, right? Otherwise no all my dudes got killed :(

I'm playing over table for the first time and also DMing for the first time. I'm running Lost Mines of Phandelver (I've played it as a player before and thought it was pretty good). I think I might have done well for a first time, at least it didn't go as bad as I had feared it might ;)

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Great Order on December 30, 2023, 06:48:32 am

Quote from: Kagus on December 24, 2023, 07:03:59 pm

As with the random American gun-nut looking for an excuse to blast a would-be mugger with their handcannon, there are both plenty enough defenseless people for the desperate muggers to hope they hit instead of said gun-nut, and almost certainly ways for the trained eye to tell the difference.

Just because there are significant risks involved with a given method of procuring wealth doesn't mean they can always stand up to the desperation inspired by the certainty of starvation if you don't.



...also in this case the shake-downers were PCs, who as we all know are agents of unabashed chaos. First one just tried to pretend that they were a duke from the capital and would reward him handsomely upon their arrival if they received help. So the alchemist gave a free sample and offered lower prices on the remaining bottles.

...but then the sorceress noticed that "hey, this guy has free potions of healing", and made the argument that had it not been for them then the alchemist would've certainly been another casualty of the ambush, and still could be... Then the dragonborn decided they wanted a pot too, so they dragonborned.

A short while later they stared menacingly at him again to make him cough up his personal defense molotovs, leaving him not only without wares but also defenseless, and with not so much as a dirty penny to show for it.

See, the problem with this mentality is it assumes the people vanish after.

They don't. Now they have an upset alchemist who is, at a minimum, going to report it to the authorities with a description of the individuals. Given enough folks (And rich enough ones) the players become seriously at risk of having a large bounty put on their head. Large bounties attract high level adventurers and even, potentially, *dragons* who are adding to their hoard and want to do so easier than pillaging a kingdom.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on December 30, 2023, 02:44:50 pm

In their defense, at the time of the shakedown this was supposed to just be a one-shot xD

But yes... They had their reunion with him in the city, and did not take the opportunity to ingratiate themselves to him or in any way try and compensate for the goods. This set into action a chain of events that has now resulted in the alchemist actually being in even worse sorts than before, and even more inclined to pursue personal vengeance if he puts two and two together. Which is almost certainly going to happen if they don't take it upon themselves to suddenly grow a conscience and bust him out of his current predicament, which is a circumstance I find... Less-likely.

So while they figure out how to get themselves out of their obligations to both the master of the largest thieves guild and one of the most powerful nobles in the city, there'll be a legitimately gifted little alchemist brewing a big pot of vengeful madness in the background.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on December 30, 2023, 04:52:45 pm

If noita has taught me anything, it's that you can get any adventurer killed, no matter how powerful, by leaving a little pool of polymorphine somewhere and letting them find it.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Frumple on December 30, 2023, 06:55:12 pm

Y'know, that made me realize that if anyone knew how to make splatter proof/resistant varnish/coating/whatever, it would be a fantasy alchemist... and they'd probably know how to make something that encouraged splatter, too.

That plus something like, yes, polymorphine, and you're dealing with liquid hell you're not going to get out of with a dodge check. Turning bucket over door pranks into adventurer killers, just add bounce slime.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Egan_BW on December 30, 2023, 06:59:44 pm

Repulsion gel!

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 31, 2023, 07:34:17 am

Quote from: scriver on December 30, 2023, 04:16:21 am

The true win was the fun we had along the way, right? Otherwise no all my dudes got killed :(

I'm playing over table for the first time and also DMing for the first time. I'm running Lost Mines of Phandelver (I've played it as a player before and thought it was pretty good). I think I might have done well for a first time, at least it didn't go as bad as I had feared it might ;)

TPK? Story time?

Quote from: Frumple on December 30, 2023, 06:55:12 pm

Y'know, that made me realize that if anyone knew how to make splatter proof/resistant varnish/coating/whatever, it would be a fantasy alchemist... and they'd probably know how to make something that encouraged splatter, too.

That plus something like, yes, polymorphine, and you're dealing with liquid hell you're not going to get out of with a dodge check. Turning bucket over door pranks into adventurer killers, just add bounce slime.

You've been struck down by the dread el bandito forma del teflon

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on December 31, 2023, 08:29:45 am

Quote from: Loud Whispers on December 31, 2023, 07:34:17 am

Quote from: scriver on December 30, 2023, 04:16:21 am

The true win was the fun we had along the way, right? Otherwise no all my dudes got killed :(

I'm playing over table for the first time and also DMing for the first time. I'm running Lost Mines of Phandelver (I've played it as a player before and thought it was pretty good). I think I might have done well for a first time, at least it didn't go as bad as I had feared it might ;)

TPK? Story time?

No, no, my dudes was the bad dudes they were supposed to die. The parry despite being down two planned members did very well and avoided any death, though I did go easy on them in the Bugbear encounter as I thought that 2d8+str is a bit unfair to level 1 characters to begin with and even more so as a boss fight when they've likely to have been wounded going up there, so I changed it to just 1d8+str.

I probably also were a bit nice to them with the stealth/ambush/surprise rules since I had trouble remembering them clearly and didn't make the chain-maily player roll with disadvantage. But it makes sense to me that in a cave where hearing is explicitely nulled by waterfall you should only have to roll stealth for visibility, not sound.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 31, 2023, 12:21:50 pm

Quote from: scriver on December 31, 2023, 08:29:45 am

No, no, my dudes was the bad dudes they were supposed to die. The parry despite being down two planned members did very well and avoided any death, though I did go easy on them in the Bugbear encounter as I thought that 2d8+str is a bit unfair to level 1 characters to begin with and even more so as a boss fight when they've likely to have been wounded going up there, so I changed it to just 1d8+str.

Ye that was merciful of you. I would've just kept it at 2d8 or described the bugbear being a particularly young/old/injured one. Lots of ways you can add more story to a fight even when you're just doing an off the wall nerf to stop players getting hit by a brick wall that might be ~too~ unfair, especially for a TTRPG with class levels where there is the expectation that fights should at most be players+1 instead of players+5. It ties into the whole "combat as a sport" vs "combat as a war" philosophy. If it's a sport, players should expect fair enough fights, in which case you can describe how your players aren't fighting an aboleth. They're fighting a dehydrated aboleth. Why is it dehydrated? Who did this to the poor fish? Will they give it the precious hydration it seeks? Maybe the bugbear is missing an arm.

Combat as war though is really fucking fun to run as a GM. As long as you give players the tools needed to collect accurate info and choose their battles, then you can go all out. Players feel like they earned their deaths and their victories, whilst NPCs behave exactly as they should, and are as powerful or deadly as makes sense. I had a right good laugh with a 3 consecutive day Dark Heresy run, where my players went up against an army of disciplined heretics wearing master-crafted carapace armour, personal force-fields, plasma/melta-guns & power weapons in abundance. My players found really creative answers to all the combat situations they found themselves in. They were either overcoming or bypassing kill-corridors, ambushes, enemy HQs, checkpoints with tactical finesse. They could feel that element of "these guys will kill us if we let them."

Occasionally though, I get an anomaly. A regular dude who beats the odds on an astronomical scale. One of my players primitive worlder PC's once killed three dudes with crit headshots... Using a bow and arrow. A regular guardsman NPC won a fist fight against the entire party without taking even a single hit. A regular NPC gang-leader armed with nothing but a shotgun and a fireaxe held off three power-armoured sororitas and several hundred flagellants by himself for four rounds.

It happened again where after successfully neutralising dozens of elite enemies, after running low on grenades, they decided to attack a bunch of industrial workers conducting an improvised defence of the refinery palace they were assaulting. The industrial workers had a bunch of explosive rounds and a kiln gun. Players wanted their explosives, as they could be rigged as improvised boom sticks with the right know-how. It should've been fairly easy. The kiln workers wore welding visors and were all partially deaf, so the chances of them noticing the players was incredibly low.

[They noticed the players].

Because they had welding visors, the players' usual tricks of blind grenading the enemy and then flanking them just didn't work, as their eyes were protected against bright flashes. Despite being armed with just simple autoguns and wrenches, the kiln workers were able to use the vats as cover, surviving the players' initial fusilade of storm bolter hellfire rounds. They kept their allied seraphim pinned with autogun fire, with the seraphim too out of range to make effective use of their pistols. One of the seraphim even managed to get wounded by one of the kiln workers through their power armour, despite it being a 1 in 10 chance to do any damage at all. All the while they used their kiln gun to just steadily destroy any of the cover the players were using to protect themselves. And as some of these vats they were all fighting in were full of volatile chemicals and molten metals, the players had to be careful what they were willing to shoot at. The players managed to disable the kiln gun, at which point the kiln workers successfully retreated with only one dead, one injured (but carried to safety by the others). One of my players remarked that the industrial workers were a superior foe to the elite foes they had been facing, whilst the other player defended the honour of my elite NPCs arguing they had just outplayed their enemies with ambushes/flanking attacks/special tactics.

Quote from: scriver on December 31, 2023, 08:29:45 am

I probably also were a bit nice to them with the stealth/ambush/surprise rules since I had trouble remembering them clearly and didn't make the chain-maily player roll with disadvantage. But it makes sense to me that in a cave where hearing is explicitely nulled by waterfall you should only have to roll stealth for visibility, not sound.

Adapting the rules to fit the context is the greatest strength of a good GM

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on January 01, 2024, 06:18:16 am

Oh, I just remembered I also added a single gem to the dungeon and it wasn't just because every time I've played this adventure before the party's had a  bit of a hard time getting around Phandelver, specifically getting to the Mining Exchange in it, which is a bit unfortunate because as I read the manual the head of it has the chance of being a pretty fun player in the adventure, being

Spoiler: the starter adventure from 10 years ago still requires spoilers surely (click to show/hide)

a mob-connected (Zentarim) businessman whose ambitions  aligns with the players' goals at that point since she also wants to get rid of the Redbrands, but she wants it because she wants to get rid of the competition.

So my aim with the gem was to give them an early reason to head to the Miner's Exchange and introduce her. I'm guessing they might want to sell it off in Phandelver so if they try to sell it to Barthen's Provisions or the other store I'll be able to have them be "aw no sirree I don't deal in gems but if you head down to ye goode ole Mining Exchange and Halia'l be able to appraise that fer you no problem".

I am gaem design

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on January 01, 2024, 04:39:49 pm

I've gotten some of the sweetest feedback I've ever heard in my life recently. One thing was having one of the newbie players message me and say flat out that they're really enjoying themselves and they think I'm a great DM, which is great; but after NYE celebrations I was driven home by the husband of the other newbie player, and he commented that she's been coming home from the sessions absolutely ecstatic and excitedly gabbling about the game. And I tell you hwat, that just about melted my heart to a puddle then and there.


I still haven't made the maps for next session though, which is on Saturday.


EDIT:
So, my players:

• Lied to, browbeat, and bullied a gifted alchemist into giving them all his stuff, then directly led to his being captured and probably tortured by a criminal group.
• Walked straight into the heart of said criminal group and cheerfully sold their leader a bomb, while brazenly showing off the ornate magical artifact in their possession.
• Promised one of the most powerful noblemen in the city to do a job for him, took advance payment for the work, and then stopped caring about it.

Also my players:
"Man, I'm trying not to metagame, but this shining radiant sword we found in a crypt dedicated to fighting evil is *totally* a cursed item that's gonna bite us in the butt later"

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2024, 06:06:10 am

Had another fine session on Saturday, one I'd been very curious about... See, the players had positioned themselves in such a predicament that they had taken forward payment for a job about a "day's travel" (I.E., 8 hours) west of the city, and then faffed around looking for supplies and nonsense the rest of the day... And then that night, had made other powers aware of them and landed them with a threateningly polite request for their presence in the evening of the following day.

So they woke up to that day, early enough that they probably would've had time to run out west, do the job, and then be back in time for the meeting (and I attempted to make this clear to the table), but they figured that the later meeting was far more worrying and they didn't want to risk being late for that. "Besides, we can just stick around until the evening, have the meeting, and then head out to do the thing. Everyone's happy!" (spoiler: Everyone will not be happy)

Instead, they wandered around town a bit more, made me realize some spellcasting rules I hadn't considered previously, robbed a sheep (not stole, robbed), and wound up getting themselves attached to an archaeological expedition into the ruins buried underneath/around the city's sewer network.


So now it's a dungeon crawl! Sorta. And one I kinda had to flat-out improvise the first section of, despite my previous plans... See, I'd wanted/expected them to check this place out eventually, and had lined up several points to facilitate this, but... Never got around to actually making any sort of dungeon area xD But it's all good, just bullshitted my way through a couple room features, and I'll figure out an explanation for them afterwards.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: scriver on January 08, 2024, 08:14:32 am

Did they miss the meeting too in the end?

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 08, 2024, 10:33:22 am

New player rolls up a preacher edgelord supreme for dark heresy. I get him to moderate the edginess and amateur voice acting a bit early on, so huge win for competent player-GM communication. They're super into TTRPGs, Baldur's Gate, pathfinder, 5e, but have never done a d100 system or one where player characters have the survivability and competency of the average joe. Aiding him was a more veteran player of many systems, playing a regular scummy bounty hunter - the "best money can buy."

Plot of the one-shot was very simple. Preacher man is also a ganger, and one of his congregation was brutally murdered. He promises to find out who did this and personally avenge their dead billy. The congregation raises 197 thrones to hire a bounty hunter to track down the killer. In addition, two pure gold coins were left on billy's dead body which if push comes to shove, they can use for bribes/incentives. 197 thrones is a lot but not that much. It's like someone saying I'll give you $500 to look into a suspicious murder. So the preacher "gets the best tesco finest money can buy."

Our scum player takes the money and royally screws up the autopsy, getting 6 degrees of failure. When trying to apprehend a drug dealer connected to Billy, he unloads full auto and the only person he hits in the back is the preacher (losing half of his wounds, but surviving thanks to his body armour). He falsely claims to the preacher there was an ambush behind them, but he scared them off. After this gaff, he seeks out help from an expert in underhive hunts to check the body, bribing him with cases of beer. The expert was somewhat helpful(??) but this mostly turned into an excuse for the scum player to use the congregation's money to buy beer for his mates. The existing clues point to a red light district where a noble, a crime boss and Billy all had mutual connections that pointed to why he was murdered. The preacher disapproves because the scum already knows the directions to the RLD.

Preacher is disappointed to see that four of his congregation are in the RLD, with one working there. Scum rolls a natural 1 on his fellowship/inquiry check to see if he's already one of the clients of this congregation lady. Preacher, prostitute and scum all mutually pretend not to know one another to avoid any awkward questions in front of the moralist who officially opposes all recidivism. Prostitute manages to get preacher, scum and scum's best mate into a guarded club with all of their concealed weapons to track down the crime boss last known to have offered Billy work connects. Scum's best mate disappears to carouse within the club. Preacher heads off to track down the crime boss. When he comes back empty handed, he's found the scum has disappeared with the prostitute and all the money.

10/10 welcome to the underhive rp

Preacher did manage to find out in the end what happened to Billy and why. A Noble scion had been arranging for underhivers to be hunted down for blood sport. Billy had been contracted to find underhivers for some work, but when he discovered the truth, refused to sell out for a deranged upper hiver's amusement. Got killed for his principles. Preacher reluctantly lets the middle-men who profit off of upper-hive sadism live, and pays them to arrange for a new hunt with the noble scion at a place of his choosing. Preacher picks a part of the underhive that is swelteringly hot, dark and infested with dangerously mutated creatures. He is armed with a primitive glaive-burner, whilst the noble scion has a power sword, a futuristic elephant gun, three gun servitors equipped with high capacity autoguns, a cyber-wolf tiger and two marker servo-skulls.

Because the scum player left (he had an IRL emergency social thing to take care of), this suddenly went from being a very dangerous fight to one where death was nearly certain. Preacher's plan was to goad a dusk stalker into attacking the nobleman, then charging in and detonating a suicide vest. This plan was nearly certain to succeed, however I did stress to him his chances of surviving detonating such a vest was 0%, and it might be worth giving a melee charge a try. His preacher had mutant eyes giving him decent night vision; the nobleman did not.

The Dusk stalker charges in after being goaded with a gout of flame. Gun servitors unload, nobleman unloads, the dusk stalker is shredded in a hail of automatic fire. But the gun servitors are out of ammo. Preacher charges in; fails his charge. Nobleman drops his gun and draws his power sword, swipes at the preacher and misses. His cyber-wolf tiger leaps at the preacher, sailing over his head with a skillful dodge. Gun servitors begin reloading; he has two turns before they finish. Lunges at the nobleman; nobleman tries to parry with his crackling power sword and falls for a feint. Preacher follows up with a second strike that wounds the nobleman's unarmoured left leg. Cyber-wolf tiger lunges at the preacher, who parries by catching the creature's jaws in between the stave of his glaive-burner, throwing the cyber-wolf tiger away in a display of great strength and fury. Nobleman goes all out with an overhead strike, but he misses when the preacher sidesteps at the last moment. Preacher returns with an all out strike of his own, the glaive critting and dealing a massive 11 damage, beheading the nobleman just above his body armour. He sprints and grabs the nobleman's head all the while the cyber-wolf tiger tries to avenge its dead master.

The whole fight was over in six seconds; the cyber-wolf tiger failed to kill or catch him, and got lost in the labyrinthine corridors and vents of the underhive. This is the first time I've had a new player in a one shot succeed without dying!!! :]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on January 08, 2024, 05:01:17 pm

Quote from: scriver on January 08, 2024, 08:14:32 am

Did they miss the meeting too in the end?

Not yet! Following the clock, we're still only a little after 8 in the morning, and the meeting's not until 7 at night... The clock+calendar thing from That Unnamed Repository of Useful Tools for 5e is great and I love it, but I have been kinda bumping into areas of "dead time" where the party doesn't have anything particular to do at the moment, with something else happening later on. It's something I've have to wiggle around, but I don't think I'm ready to go into fully narrative time just yet, as I do really like the clock... I just need to either cut off larger slices when estimating time spent on various actions, or be better about providing filler content in between.

The area they're in now is a mildly-to-moderately cursed ruin of an ancient civilization... However, the local gangs don't care much about that, as it's a nice sprawling underground network that's not patrolled, so they've been having their turf wars down there in a bid to gain control of better access routes.

Or at least that's how it started, but recently the energies of this place have begun to grow stronger and are affecting people more severely, so what were once squabbles between competing-if-respectful groups have now begun escalating into full-on pyrrhic carnage.

So it's not, like, full of spooky beasties, because the gangs kinda do a decent job of shooing things off... But the gangs themselves are down there, and the players might just wander into a mixed brawl at some point next session.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on February 11, 2024, 05:36:07 pm

Y'know, I'm not sure why I even bother coming up with enemies for my party... They seem to be incredibly proficient in making their own.

We've had a couple sessions since last time, during which time they've managed to enrage a psychotic shadow-infused dwarven hermit, set off alarm bells within the arcane university that maybe they're not actually the people they claimed to be before getting involved in sensitive research, and provided the thieves guild master with materials and information necessary to line up a major power grab and change the dynamics of the criminal underworld...

For their services, witting or otherwise, the guildmaster has granted them a token of goodwill in the form of letting them know that the noble they took the job (and money) from is pissed and out for blood, and to suggest that the party skip town and go to the neighboring settlement out west to keep their heads down for a bit... Heck, he'll even pull some strings to prevent the nobleman's goons from looking out there, and will send a messenger to tell them when it's cool to come back.

So, with that neat little package laid neatly at their feet, what is the first thing the party decides to do before taking off?

Why, they write a goddamn letter to a wizard at the arcane university, telling them where they're going in case any important developments in the research pop up

Heck, even the method they posted that letter is most likely going to get even more people in trouble, and potentially spark some more grievances...


Splendid stuff!


EDIT:

Me: "Alright, I recognize that I'm inexperienced as a DM and have a long way to go before getting really solid on all the stuff happening on this side of the screen, so I should keep things fairly basic rather than try to reach too far above my grasp."

Also me: [Makes redesigns of the Wild Magic subclass and the whole damn game's stealth system because natively they're both awful for everyone involved]

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Kagus on March 25, 2024, 08:48:56 am

Perpetually agog at my own ability to dig myself in way over my head.

It's a homebrew world (not pre-established, so I'm making all the lore and locations up basically as I go along), sandboxy, I've thrown time and energy into redesigning a couple of the systems as mentioned...

And now I've yeeted a murder mystery at them and I was absolutely not prepared to put this sort of hook together properly. So many missing connections/clues/details, I feel like all my NPCs keep melting into the same personality aggregate, we've barely had any combats which is like the one thing 5e can do, and I'm worried that I'm not engaging our rogue player enough... And, of course, next session is on Thursday and I've done literally zero prep; haven't even written the recap for last session yet.

...but on the flip side, last session did involve at least one situation where one of the players legitimately had to get up and go outside for some fresh air because she was laughing so hard she couldn't breathe. So I guess maybe it's still going okay.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Great Order on April 28, 2024, 09:03:30 pm

Working on my world on-and-off, apocalyptic shit going on, I need some ideas of stuff produced by excessive warfare, magical and no. Mostly magical, the guys going around batting stuff with warhammers aren't going to leave too many long-term effects. Anything ranging from bizarre to deranged to harmful. And I mean anything really for ideas, owlbears are one of them what with the book's lore being that they're the product of bizarro magic breeding, and I've got ideas for fucked up areas where excessive use of magic's pulled the universe's fabric a little too thin, but other stuff would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: delphonso on April 29, 2024, 01:40:55 am

I love lost tech, so maybe a few autoboats that run on something no one knows how to make anymore and are just slowly dying out. Could be transportation across a otherwise unnavigable river/highly desired as yachts for rich nobles.

Castles and forts in ruins, obviously, but chuck in a few Walking Castles while you're at it. Even if they're in ruins, its at least a new type to explore.

Rust Monsters that got a taste for magical items.

Depending on how wild you want the setting, an inactive mass destruction device in a town, sething like Megaton from Fallout 3.

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Frumple on April 29, 2024, 08:36:58 pm

Quote from: Great Order on April 28, 2024, 09:03:30 pm

Mostly magical, the guys going around batting stuff with warhammers aren't going to leave too many long-term effects.

I mean, you might be surprised with that one. If they're swinging hard enough to crack dimensional boundaries and whatnot things can get weird! Basic conceit behind a fair amount of martial arts fantasy subdimensions, really.

Quote from: delphonso on April 29, 2024, 01:40:55 am

I love lost tech, so maybe a few autoboats that run on something no one knows how to make anymore and are just slowly dying out. Could be transportation across a otherwise unnavigable river/highly desired as yachts for rich nobles.

Ngl, my brain initially missed the relevant A with that one, but, like. Autobots as random ferry service would be kinda' neat. Best trick is seeing how little you can paper over what you're doing before people actually notice, heh.

Size distortion localized to a particular region can be pretty fun. Having to deal with upsized macrophages or somethin' can be a hoot, having what amounts to entire worlds of space, complete with its own biosphere, compressed into an acre of warzone or something can also be wild. Nested settings!

Involuntary polymorphs of various sorts (I'm not saying trans magical realm... but I'm saying trans magical realm) can get mileage, though it's admittedly pretty old hat by this point.

Violence infecting the nearby inanimate objects, going through an abandoned town near the edge of the relevant warzone and the rusting knives and whatnot try to shank you, etc.

Kitty cat kill sat (yes, that's an actual book title) shenanigans can be fun. Way too few fantasy-based post apoc settings go orbital.

When I was entertaining similar ideas decades ago, weird plants were fairly prominent, iirc... flowers that ate thermal energy over a large area, trees that basically dropped pern's thread on people, stuff like that. Lot of really wild space to work with in that general direction, especially if you bring mycology into the picture... large scale mycorrhizal networks are already pretty incredible without throwing magic in the mix, so adding another layer to it, well...

i'm not saying killer roombas but All the Dust that Falls exists so maybe i am saying killer roombas

Title: Re: Re: Dungeons & Dragons / PNP games thread: COBRA!!!
Post by: Great Order on April 29, 2024, 09:42:24 pm

My idea for the worlds-of-space-in-an-acre is more along the lines of space being scrunched up in funky ways. Enter the area in one direction, you wind up in one place, enter in another and you can wind up in another. Both in the same location, just like I said, all scrunched up. Can expand on it, have to do certain things to enter the right way. Hell, maybe have it so that some people have turned them into vaults with specific actions, or things, needed to enter them acting as a combination lock. Only they can be a lot bigger and a lot more hidden than an actual vault.