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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: Toady One on September 01, 2009, 05:44:27 pm

Title: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Toady One on September 01, 2009, 05:44:27 pm
We should be recording the next Dwarf Fortress Talk at the end of the month, and we'll be answering your questions again.

Please post the questions you'd like to appear on show.  The other hosts will be picking some of them.  Due to time constraints, we will not be able to answer every question!  But you can just ask again next time if you like.

It would help us out if you post your questions like this?
You can do this with
Code: [Select]
[b][color=limegreen]like this?[/color][/b]

Please note that I won't be answering the questions here in this thread as you ask them, since we are saving them for the show!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Realmfighter on September 01, 2009, 07:08:53 pm
First post!

Can you conquer and rule over other civilivations? Can you make them pay you tribute, soldiers or goods? If you can will imposing low to none taxs on them make them like you and be more loyal?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mephansteras on September 01, 2009, 07:47:35 pm
I'm going to repost my question from last time, since megabeasts didn't get as much coverage. (Hearing about the siege stuff was fun, so I didn't mind)

What are your ultimate goals for Megabeasts and Semimegabeasts? Will they use equipment, create objects, form roving groups? Interact with one another? I know Titans and Cyclopses were often the makers of great things in Greek mythology, would it be possible to come across a Cyclops cave with a giant forge and giant-size equipment he has created for other (semi)megabeasts?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: guyinthecrowd on September 01, 2009, 08:44:12 pm
Posting these questions again:

Question #1: Will the environment a dwarf is raised in affect what they like/dislike? For example, if a dwarf is unhappy as a child being raised in a fortress made entirely out of mined Orthoclase, will said dwarf dislike Orthoclase as an adult? Or as a counter-example, If a dwarf is happy whilst being raised in a room of Kaolinite, will said dwarf like Kaolinite when they become an adult?

Question #2: Is it possible that you could maybe put Scamps in the game? Like maybe as a roaming invulnerable kitten with an exotic tag? We could train it to claw at the face of invading elves, steal their paper, and go up in their cave and eat it.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: timmeh on September 01, 2009, 08:49:46 pm
One of my questions from last time: At one point during the first talk someone mentioned gods as playable entities, what would gameplay as a god be like?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: A_Big_Bear on September 01, 2009, 10:36:56 pm
Question: Toady what do you do to calm down when your angry?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Goberfish on September 01, 2009, 10:42:27 pm
Are there any plans for world domination via brainwashing techniques through Dwarf Fortress?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Emperor Iones on September 01, 2009, 10:58:28 pm
Question: Will workshops ever require tools, possibly made by craftdwarves?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: XSI on September 02, 2009, 07:29:33 am
A few questions while listening to the last one.

Dwarven strongholds seem to have tunnels between them, would it be possible to eventually make one of those in fortress mode?(Probably useful to get migrants and dwarf caravans while being sieged)

Unfortunatly, I could not listen to the whole thing at once, so I'll probably post another question later.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Coilgunner on September 02, 2009, 08:19:48 am
Just seemed like an appropriate question.   :)

Do you think later on that it will be possible (or practical) to use items (money, jewelry, small stones off the ground...) as a wieldable weapon in adventure?

Also... Do you think gods will be able to craft legendary items of worship which could possibly form the basis for sub religions or something like that?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: alfie275 on September 02, 2009, 08:53:11 am
Will it be possible, in the future to create a creature that grows a part and removes it, say a porcupineman who grows spines and can use them as throwing weapons without it harming him?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 02, 2009, 09:08:11 am
What is the planned process for making the game run through time?  At what point do breeding populations of people get added in?

This is less 'run the game for more plot' and more 'after playing a 100 year fort, everyone shouldn't be dead if I try adventure mode.'

How awesome would it be if the only way to tell what a random megabeast was going to do to you was to (sic) run to your sage and ask him about the legends of the beast and read about what he's done in the past?  Any plans to make legends mode accessible to Dwarf or Adventure modes?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Zantan on September 02, 2009, 10:25:24 am

In the first talk, you mentioned that sometime soon the interactions between different religious, family, and guild factions would become important to gameplay.  Could you give more specifics on the game effects of these interactions and how you would be able to affect them, other than managing  room quality and changing the happiness of various people?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Akroma on September 02, 2009, 11:03:44 am
you mentioned the hydra. will it become poisonous, like the mythological example, now that we have poison ?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: XSI on September 02, 2009, 11:45:09 am
It was mentioned goblins(Invaders in general) will find ways to get past your traps, how can they possibly hope to deal with the more complicated traps? As example, a trap that first floods a room with water, and then magma to make obsidian, it would be next to impossible to survive that.(And can we mine out obsidian statues of goblins from it?)

On megabeasts, when hydras will get fixed so they have the same amount of skulls as they have heads/brains? And that they don't die after just one of those heads/brains are gone, or even get more heads when one gets cut off?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mephansteras on September 02, 2009, 11:52:00 am
Any thoughts about handling creatures with more complicated abilities, like doppelgangers?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 02, 2009, 11:54:28 am
oooh good one.

On a related note, how do you see the AI for creatures with special abilities, and in particular multiple special abilities playing out?  Obviously a doppleganger will have behaviours other critters don't have.  What about flaming dopplegangers?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Armok on September 02, 2009, 12:07:58 pm
Ok, I had a bunch of questions but this is the only one I remember clearly at the moment; From the bloats and Treetoe stories and such I have understood that once the magic arc comes around there might be magic protesis, mechanical arms and such, now the question is, if one keept getting such replacements could a scenario similar to the tin woodsman from Ozz occur, in which every part is replaced at a time until the entire creature is completely artificial, but with the same soul? Would this be recognised by the game as different from being only partially replaced and have recuperations?


Old questions from the last thread that are still relevant:

1) Will it always be so that first there is a long time of worldgen, and then the player plays evrything on a much shorter timescale, or will automatic worldgen become just another mode you can enter and then make it simulate until some parameter is met? SO that you could create an empty world, go in in and play as a god and create it in year 0, then go into worldgen mode and fastforward a few thousand years and play in the world you created. Or create a world like normal, and then after playing a fort instead of going in adventure mode directly you fast-forward a millennia so you get all these effects like moss and erosion and old things moving into your old forts? Or you could have a word were you gen a few hundred years, run an adventurer, generate another few hundred years, another adventurer, etc. until your world is tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years old? Would such a worldgen mode have other parameters beyond the amount of time that should pass?


 2) Somewhat related to the previous question, will there be support for different topologies of the world? Currently it seems like the world is just a subsection of something larger, in the future could one have a spherical world? a toroid world? A circular world with waterfalls going of the edges? If the world is created in some way by gods or the creation is otherwise simulated directly, will one be able to chose if it stars with land, sea, void chasm-like tiles, or something else before the gods start(ed) working on it?

3)You mentioned in the teaser that there might be different skillsets for treating animals and dwarves, but what about other intelligent races? What about a human, an elf, a goblin, a kobold, a centaur, a slugman, etc. The entire sliding scale seems sort of covered so were will the border betwen something using the doctor and veterinarian skills actually go?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Stormrage on September 02, 2009, 03:36:35 pm
In case the sieging goblins COULD dig, will there be "hidden attacks" where they dispatch a hidden goblin scout to map your fortress and obtain valuable information on its underground whereabouts before attacking instead of just blindly looking for it? And can they enter from underground and remain completely hidden until they pierce one of the wall in your fortress, completely bypassing the traps, arriving exactly in the Kings bedroom? Concerning that, can walls be reinforced, requiring, say, enchanted(later in game) or adamantine picks to be able to mine them out?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Thursday Postal on September 02, 2009, 03:41:52 pm
If various civs can have members of other races in them (via slavery, kidnapping, adoption, conquering, subjugation, etc) will a dwarf mode fort ever have the chance to have, say, an adopted human come in with an immigrant wave?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Ixoran on September 02, 2009, 03:42:03 pm
How large is the Dwarf Fortress codebase in lines. (including all associated files)
Haha, Didn't get an answer last time, maybe if I ask earlier. :D
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: tiresius on September 02, 2009, 04:11:41 pm
Re: code size, that would be interesting.
I read in an article somewhere that it was over 100,000 lines of code.  Hard to imagine, but I think that's what it said.  It was the article that also mentioned the function name flingify()

My question(s):
There are many many bugs reported, which is acceptable in an Alpha release game.  Since you are currently adding tons of features, approx how much time do you spend on fixing bugs from the various bug reports?  Will you have a bug-fixing frenzy after this next major release?  Or is it not worth it since buggy code gets rewritten regularly with these large enhancements?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Lamp on September 02, 2009, 04:53:09 pm
1. Will there be drugs, such as Dwarven LSD, Dwarven Cocaine and other drugs? If so will dwarves start having their own black market operations that could be going on under your nose?

2. What type of tools are you using to test the game? I know you've got at least one or two awesome tools that you've made that mess with the dwarves/other creatures.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 02, 2009, 05:15:46 pm
On the subject of Titans:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also:

Will names ever be split along gender lines to help make it easier to distinguish characters' gender? (e.g. Urist is a male name or somesuch)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Balathustrius on September 02, 2009, 08:34:55 pm
Any plans for subterranean civilizations (dwellers of the world-spanning caves, I mean)

Can you find features like magma, underground rivers, chasms ect. in the world-spanning caves?


Caves pique my curiosity.   ;D
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Meanmelter on September 02, 2009, 09:25:45 pm
Will you eventually add a "create your own dwarf" feature where you create your very own dwarf from his skills all the way to his traits?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 02, 2009, 09:57:00 pm
Will you eventually add a "create your own dwarf" feature where you create your very own dwarf from his skills all the way to his traits?


I highly doubt this. Toady's skeptical enough about allowing a sandbox mode that lets you fight dragons whenever you want; custom-building dwarves would be another step that could remove/invalidate the game's randomness.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Neonivek on September 02, 2009, 10:18:57 pm
Quote
when hydras will get fixed so they have the same amount of skulls as they have heads/brains? And that they don't die after just one of those heads/brains are gone, or even get more heads when one gets cut off?

Apperantly this has to do a lot with the "Hydra test" that Toady has in his FoTF topic. So you should have it by next release if not soon after
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mephansteras on September 02, 2009, 11:33:49 pm
Will it be possible to someday 'seed' starting populations of civs with specific traits when you start world-gen? Like specifying that a fortress be of light sinned, red-haired dwarves, a human town with all dark-skinned people, and a Dark Tower with goblins that have dark green skin and super big ears or something? Might fit with a god-mode, if that ever went in.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Veroule on September 03, 2009, 12:46:29 am
As populations begin to be tracked for longer periods of time, will thier skills develop.  For example a legends line, 'Tekkud became a farmer in Closetcloistered, in 107.'  When that Tekkud immigrates to a fortress in 132, will he have 25 years of farming skill devlopment?

Also if skills, relationships, quirks, etc. are developed and recorded into the population during worldgen.  Will the selection of dwarves for embarking to start a new fortress be able to pick a party out of the population, allowing starting with a legendary building designer?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 03, 2009, 01:28:00 am
Any plans for subterranean civilizations (dwellers of the world-spanning caves, I mean)


Good news for you. (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2009-04-21)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Balathustrius on September 03, 2009, 02:47:58 am
Any plans for subterranean civilizations (dwellers of the world-spanning caves, I mean)


Good news for you. (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2009-04-21)

Ha, cool.  Thanks for linking me that.  Perhaps we will once again fear the batmen from the depths.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dasleah on September 03, 2009, 03:43:16 am
My first question.

If you could automagically and instantly add one thing to Dwarf Fortress - Bloat, Req, feature, cool idea, whatever - for no other reason other than you'd love to see it in there, what would it be? What would ThreeToe like to see in there?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: ggeezz on September 03, 2009, 08:32:52 am
Do you think it's possible to "have our cake and eat it to" when it comes to the interface?  That is, could we have nice community developed interfaces where you're still in control and aren't hampered?  I had in mind an API (or something) that is designed to be somewhat forward compatible (where things can be deprecated and new things added, but the relevant parts still work).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Zollarr on September 03, 2009, 10:12:42 am
dont really want to go through all the questions so sorry if somebodys already used it.


Toady, what are your plans for mounts(horses,trolls,ogres,dragons,etc)?will you be able to ride mounts in adventure mode?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Silveron on September 03, 2009, 11:00:29 am
In regards to the squads and their schedules, is this something we will be able to import/export similar to the embark profiles?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 03, 2009, 11:46:46 am
In regards to the squads and their schedules, is this something we will be able to import/export similar to the embark profiles?

Nice
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Wonderdummy on September 03, 2009, 12:28:45 pm
Will I finally be able to make blocks out of soap?

(my giant tower of soap remains soapless...)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 03, 2009, 02:43:21 pm
Sort of a question/sugestion hybrid, but:

So, adventurer mode! I remember you once mentioned that fortress and adventurer mode would become more and more similar with adventurer mode skills and all that. Maybe giving the king the ability to mandate quests or something, and then you'd choose a dwarf and send him out to complete whatever task the king wanted him to (stealing an artifact, killing a dangerous beast, assassinations, delivering a message, etc), having the option to leave said dwarf to the AI's care and sending him out, or taking direct control of him as an adventurer, leaving your fortress to the AI's care, and then taking control of things again after you come back.

What are your thoughts on this Toady, and what you have in mind regarding the possible fusion of fortress and adventurer mode?[/b]

Also:

Currently a creature's size is a rather controversial thing, since a Titan, while still being quite tall, is only 3 times and a half bigger then a dwarf, which is kinda odd when you see all those myths about titans and them being big as a mountain and stuff. I realise the possible issues that messing with the size tag could cause, like making incredibly huge things like titans invincible and all that, though it'd make things sorta more realistic since a champion, while incredibly well trained, woundn't be able to just wrestle a bronze collosus to the ground and beat it to death, at least not alone, making combat a bit more interesting and making ranged weapons more useful. What are your thoughts on the matter, Toady?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Walliard on September 03, 2009, 03:05:23 pm
Re-post from last time:

What are your plans regarding POWs in fortress mode? Will dwarves be able to re-educate prisoners into their society as goblins currently do with snatched children in worldgen?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: uioped1 on September 03, 2009, 06:43:13 pm
Comment:
I like the idea of a massive seige of goblins realised as wave upon wave of some smaller number of them.  It reminds me Risk, when attacking a country with a massive army, only 3 divisions are allowed to fight at any one time.

Followup question:
Regarding the challenges facing besieging forces currently, shouldn't a labrynth should be just as deadly (to the invading forces, not to your CPU) as a corridor full of traps?  I fully agree that we have it too easy now, but It's always bugged me in other games when game balance was achieved by granting godly knowlege to a measly goblin.  This brings me to the new questions:

Do you have a vision for the addition of more AI to the game?  Are you going to continue adding specific rules and hope for emergent behavior?  Or at some point is a dwarf going to have some process by which he can attempt to figure something out?

Edit: woops, didn't see you said lime
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: zwei on September 04, 2009, 03:00:40 am
Do you get hate mail?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Neonivek on September 04, 2009, 08:43:20 am
Well, I sorta got lucky last time. I wonder if I got a keeper this time

Toady right now Adventurer companions are rather basic, they give up their entire lives and follow you to the ends of the earth. In fact that seems to be all they do. What are your plans for them in the future? Will you go to town and see them drinking in a bar maybe dressed in new armor they got from the cut of the mission they just went on maybe buying up some land for when they retire? or do you see them in a more traditional sense of being almost entirely controlled by the player?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Moose Fisher on September 04, 2009, 12:19:25 pm
What are your plans for giving a use to extracts and soap?

Also,

Is is possible to give dwarves the ability to milk cows without affecting their carrying abilities?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Hummingbird on September 04, 2009, 03:26:30 pm
Do you plan to someday remove Legends Mode or make it unnecessary by making it possible for the player to discover all he wants about the worldgen history through asking around in Adventure Mode?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Zenanon on September 04, 2009, 04:59:04 pm
Do you plan on having Totems do anything in the near future?  It would be my assumption that at the very least it should unnerve an enemy if your fort is covered in skulls, especially if they're skulls of that enemy's species.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: shadowform on September 04, 2009, 06:05:48 pm
[Regarding the last dwarf talk's uncertainty about the Bronze Colossus]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes
The Colossus of Rhodes was a massive bronze statue, just over 100 feet tall, built overlooking the harbor on the Greek island of Rhodes.  Stood for some 60 years before being toppled by an earthquake.

Here's a question for you:

If you get a 'legendary' fey mood (one that generates a magic item instead of something that's just really shiny), could we see golems, collossi, et cetera?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mechanoid on September 04, 2009, 10:17:37 pm
Will the randomization of items after a fortress abandonment and subsequent entry by a player adventurer be a toggle option in the init file?

It already really sucks to have your delicately designed artifact museum in a large fortress map end up spread out over the surface world... it'd only be worse with the new (possibly) equally large underground caverns.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 04, 2009, 10:52:09 pm
Do you plan to someday remove Legends Mode or make it unnecessary by making it possible for the player to discover all he wants about the worldgen history through asking around in Adventure Mode?

I think you can already do that by looking at engravings and talking to people in adventurer mode. And yes, worldgen fortresses also have engravings on them, sometimes, i actually do remember entering a goblin tower which had a decent piece of its floors engraved.

Also: Can Toady explain how exactly martial arts in DF are supposed work like? Is it like some interface in which the player can choose what moves to do and how to execute them, or special attacks that experienced NPCs might teach and an adventurer could learn by talking with said NPCs? I just wanted to ask because i'm still quite confused by that idea, even though it sounds pretty awesome.
So, how will they work? And whats your plans for martial arts in fortress/adventurer mode?

Another thing that's been bothering me is if in some later release we'll get the chance to play as other races. I've read stuff about it here and there and i'm sure i saw it somewhere in the dev list, but i just can't remember. Will we get to build our own human city/goblin tower/Elven settlement/kobold cave? If so, will they be handed differently, with different restrictions/possibilities? Because it'd be really weird to just dig a hole in the ground and live there as a human, instead of working aboveground and building an actual city.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: KillerClowns on September 04, 2009, 11:09:24 pm
...Another thing that's been bothering me is if in some later release we'll get the chance to play as other races. I've read stuff about it here and there and i'm sure i saw it somewhere in the dev list, but i just can't remember. Will we get to build our own human city/goblin tower/Elven settlement/kobold cave? If so, will they be handed differently, with different restrictions/possibilities? Because it'd be really weird to just dig a hole in the ground and live there as a human, instead of working aboveground and building an actual city...
As you may or may not know, you can already mod it so that other races are playable.  However, they all use the Dwarf Fortress UI, are presently restricted to dwarf-usable weapon types (for instance, you can only have crossbowman, not archers; this will be amended next version), and, at present, above-ground construction is a huge pain.  (In my current game as a human town, I find my buildings, thought above-ground, tend to get basements quite quickly...)  I do recall it's a very-far-away goal to have humans, elves, and I think goblins and kobolds, playable with special adjustments to their styles of construction and civilizations.
EDIT: Ah, here we are (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_future.html).  Explicitly listed as being planned post-version 1 (e.g. really far away).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: DG on September 05, 2009, 01:54:38 am
Trading related questions:

1. Are you planning to allow trading in fortress mode with more than one civilization of a given race and will you be able to trade with dwarven civilizations other than your own? I can see a few issues with this, and if you've considered it much I'd like to hear your thoughts.

2. Will the arrival of a merchant once per year no longer be guaranteed if/when the time it takes for them to arrive is determined by the distance and terrain between your fort and their starting point? Related to this quote on the Caravan Arc Preliminaries: "III.A.1: Replacement of generated caravans in dwarf mode with actual caravans (part of Core3)"

Embark questions:

1. Do you have plans to allow the first seven dwarves to be chosen from a larger pool of dwarves which are actual world gen members of your chosen civilization?

2. Do you intend to add more role-playing elements to the process of creating an adventurer? I'm talking about something like the questions asked in ADOM but I'd love to hear any of the ideas you have and also possibly when you envisage being able to incorporate them (more what order of priority it would have amongst other plans, not an exact time date).

Gameplay questions:

1. Will the speed of creatures be changed to more realistic levels so that for instance a dwarf would never be able to outrun a deer no matter how perfectly agile he is?

2. Will creatures be given separate walk/run speeds that they use at different times and for different reasons?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dasleah on September 05, 2009, 02:05:55 am
Another one~

Will, through deeds of their own or proximity to wondrous events, otherwise mortal creatures be one day elevated to the 'status' of Megabeasts and become a diety or something similar? Sort of like a Champion becoming so renown in combat that he becomes The People's God Of War. Or a Groundhog that just so happens to be able to predict the length of the seasons, so a Cult grows up around him. Would they become immortal, or would their ghosts / souls gain godlike powers upon their mortal death, in relative strength to their following?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: nil on September 05, 2009, 02:10:18 am
When, how, and how much do you plan to have relative height affect combat (both melee and ranged)?   I don't mean creature size or stance, but rather terrain--historically "holding the high ground" was a crucial advantage, but in DF it is irrelevant at best, and due to the way arrows move, often a disadvantage.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 05, 2009, 02:25:45 am
The usual disclaimer: I'm not saying these questions are bad or otherwise unfit for DF Talk discussion, just providing answers where I can.

2. Do you intend to add more role-playing elements to the process of creating an adventurer? I'm talking about something like the questions asked in ADOM but I'd love to hear any of the ideas you have and also possibly when you envisage being able to incorporate them (more what order of priority it would have amongst other plans, not an exact time date).

We've got these dev items: (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html)

# SCENARIOS ARC: Character generation is due for a major change. The current plan is to have an interactive history generator that takes your character from birth to a playable age, incorporating them into the fabric of the world. Pressing "Play Now!" would answer the questions automatically, perhaps with a strong tendency to place you in dire/interesting situations. Related to Core75, Core76, Req214, Req317, Bloat26 and Bloat143.

# Core75, ADVENTURER GENERATION AND SCENARIOS, (Future): The adventurer is quite a nebulous object at this point. There are a variety of angles that can be taken here, from weaving the adventurer fulling into their starting location's history, actually playing an existing creature in the world, creating starting scenarios that at least make sense of the adventurer's existence and/or mysterious arrival, etc.

And also a discussion from the List thread:

Spoiler: for brevity (click to show/hide)

1. Will the speed of creatures be changed to more realistic levels so that for instance a dwarf would never be able to outrun a deer no matter how perfectly agile he is?

2. Will creatures be given separate walk/run speeds that they use at different times and for different reasons?

This also came up in the List thread:

Spoiler: for brevity (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: DG on September 05, 2009, 07:59:58 am
Thanks, Foot :)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Airpi on September 05, 2009, 10:11:21 am
We've all heard about the big changes coming with regards to tissue layers and all of that, but what about bones? Specifically, how will this affect the bone crafting industry? Right now there's some weird idiosyncrasies, eg. a stack of 16 elephant bones and a stack of 2 groundhog bones make the same amount of crafts, but then if you dismember the groundhog first you'll get more stacks for each limb you tear off. Will the new tissue system do something to fix this?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: shadow_archmagi on September 05, 2009, 10:38:29 am
What is the ETA for the next release?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mechanoid on September 05, 2009, 04:15:05 pm
Will the various pause events in the game be given a init option?

Sometimes, i just want DF to run in the background for 20 in game years so i don't have to worry about stupid crap popping up, pausing the game, and wasting my time by having to check/unpause constantly.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Kilo24 on September 05, 2009, 05:39:18 pm
From the last thread:

How much inter-race diversity are you aiming for in either genetics or culture?  Will it ever be more significant than belonging to a different species?

How do you see tutorials being implemented?  Will you focus around gradually making more and more of the game available to the new player, and/or try to create a deep sort of contextual help screen?  And will scripting tools ever be released to let players create fully ingame tutorials?

Do you think you can/will model evolution well over the course of world gen?

When running a whole civilization, I'd expect (and hope) that a great amount of the decisions made would at least have the option of being automated.  Have you thought a great deal about developing a comprehensive way to enable/disable automation on a smaller scale (like with governors in several games?)  This would be a way to help out the learning curve.

Do you have any plans on letting creatures leave or come in through the borders of the generated regions?  Will there be any way to travel between regions (assuming the raws are kept the same?)

Will you release a scripting tool to let people create more story-focused games with Dwarf Fortress's complexity, if they want to?

Will we see any math-related easter eggs in the game?


Heh.  I can't think of any new ones.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Chronas on September 05, 2009, 08:12:15 pm
Will moods apply to surgery?

Will the quality of surgical implements affect the outcome or speed of an operation?

What does the new health care system add to adv mode?

Will maggots be able to substitute medical treatment for rotting flesh?

If invaders can burrow, will they pop up like vermin, or leave permanent damage to soil layers?

Do you ever intend to make constructions (walls, for example) destructible?


Also:
Have you ever been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mephansteras on September 05, 2009, 08:17:00 pm
Also:
Have you ever been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

I'm sorry, can you rephrase this? I have no idea what this means at all.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 05, 2009, 08:24:15 pm
Indeed, wat.

Now, regarding contructions, they aready are destructible, but only in fortress mode and only a few creatures can do such a thing, which is sure to be changed in future releases.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Airpi on September 05, 2009, 08:43:17 pm
Also:
Have you ever been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Oh you.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dasleah on September 05, 2009, 10:29:51 pm
More from me.

Are there plans to extend the current (Fey, Sinister, Fell, etcetera) Mood system to all skills or professions? Or will they be limited to the purely creative (ie, skills that directly relate to things being made) skills? Would a Surgeon in a Mood randomly amputate a random Dwarf's (or his own) arm and replace it with a successful and jewel-studded Groundhog limb? Would a Fell Mood Herbalist kill a Dwarf and grow a Dwarfflesh Berry Bush?

And another one.

With the advent of groups, Guilds, stronger personality traits, etcetera, can a Dwarf's beliefs isolate him from the rest of the Fortress' society? Would, for example, a Dwarf the believes strongly in justice, in a Fort with no assigned Sherrif or poorly enfoced Justice system, consider taking things into his own hands and become a vigilante? Or a Dwarf obsessed with cleanliness decide to turn his Cleaning labours on and turn everything off? Basically, how much potential is there for a Dwarf to go rogue or renegade?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 06, 2009, 03:12:53 am
Will the various pause events in the game be given a init option?

Sometimes, i just want DF to run in the background for 20 in game years so i don't have to worry about stupid crap popping up, pausing the game, and wasting my time by having to check/unpause constantly.

The next version will let you disable pause-recenters for everything except siege arrivals. (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2009-02-19)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Hoborobo234 on September 06, 2009, 03:35:31 am
Will there be more advanced targeting in the future, I don't like the fact that you randomly hack at stuff now, like VATS or something?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Koji on September 06, 2009, 05:22:41 am
Have you considered how multi-tile monsters will work in ASCII? It's easy to involve them in a graphical interface, but are you imagining dragons as a cluster of flashing Ds, or something more like a ballista or wagon?

Yeah, it's kind of an out-there question, but it'd be interesting to see how Toady's imagining it, even if the eventual reality turns out differently.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dante on September 06, 2009, 06:23:44 am
Question from a game dev perspective. I've only been amateur programming for four or five years. DF is a single game that has been developing for longer than that. So,

How many lines of code does Dwarf Fortress roughly amount to?

Is this rapidly [steadily, haltingly, undulatingly...] increasing over time, or are you mainly making refinements to existing code?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: kommissarnicko on September 06, 2009, 06:30:37 am
I casually watch what's going on in the forums, and I think I noticed this one in the thread for Talk #2, but it deserves repeating...

Do you have any plans for implementing some of the items proposed in Eternal Suggestions? In particular, I'm interested in both improved hauling and septic systems.

Septic systems I'm especially interested to see. The greatest civilization of the ancient world (Rome, after all) was distinguished almost exclusively by its amazing plumbing and septic engineering.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Timst on September 06, 2009, 09:38:15 am
I don't remember if someone talked about it before but...

Right now, DF is in Alpha. But everyone is aiming for the V1 and there's no mention of a Beta state before. So my question is : Will the V1 be the "Beta" version of DF or will there be an intermediate stage between the alpha and the v1 ?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 06, 2009, 10:15:15 am
Do you have any plans for implementing some of the items proposed in Eternal Suggestions? In particular, I'm interested in both improved hauling and septic systems.

The top ten entries in ESV are going to get special consideration for the series of releases following the upcoming one:

Quote from: DF Talk 1 Transcript
This also turned out, as far as the timing of 'when are we going to see this kind of thing', there's the return of the guilds, or I don't remember exactly what it's called, up in the eternal suggestions voting up on the suggestions list and it's doing pretty well. I said I'd take a look at the top ones there for next time - now by next time I mean the next series of releases because I really hope I never have a release this long again, it's going to be over a year - so in the short term we're going to be looking at this stuff, it's not like it's just something I'm talking about; we're going to look at this along with the adventurer's skills stuff and the improved sieges; job priorities; improved hauling; I don't remember if improved farming is up there; increased tile support for graphics ... whatever things were up there that people wanted we're going to be looking at.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Fieari on September 06, 2009, 01:40:15 pm
I think he realizes that, the question (as I read it) is more along the lines of asking how Toady intends to implement it, in a technical capacity.  Some of those suggestions are pretty "opened ended" in terms of how exactly to implement them, after all.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 06, 2009, 03:27:53 pm
What kind of music are you interested in, Toady?

Are there any plans to add Naga into DF? As my favorite fantasy race, I'd love it if they were in.

How soon will different civs of the same race be different? That is, having different dialects, slightly different morals, etc.

You said that you liked the 3D visualizer programs. Would you consider taking one of those and putting it in DF to replace the current visualizer? That is, with the creator's permission and all that.

Why aren't there penguins in the vanilla game?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 06, 2009, 03:30:27 pm

Are there any plans to add Naga into DF? As my favorite fantasy race, I'd love it if they were in.


They sorta already are: Snakemen.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 06, 2009, 04:16:55 pm
I keep getting more questions.

Since Soap is now useful, will it be upgraded in any way - perhaps having a sudsy reaction when exposed to running water?

WAIT READ THIS AGAIN I GOT ANOTHER ONE

On the subject of soap, what is the consumption rate? Does a bar wear down, like clothing or food, or is it produced as a stack of Soap (10)?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: MC Dirty on September 06, 2009, 07:36:34 pm
There will be so much new fortress mode stuff in the upcoming version which will radically change the playstyle, but:
How much is Adventure Mode going to be different in this release? For example: Will traps finally work?
Seriously, though, that's the one thing in Adventure Mode that really bugged me. Especially because there's an init option for that. It just doesn't work.
Also: Did you ever think about abandoning the Dwarf Fortress project?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 06, 2009, 08:48:07 pm
Do you like narwhals?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: CobaltKobold on September 07, 2009, 01:51:31 am
(disclaimer:answers provided not necessarily indicating unsuitable question. Not to be used for the other use.)
If various civs can have members of other races in them (via slavery, kidnapping, adoption, conquering, subjugation, etc) will a dwarf mode fort ever have the chance to have, say, an adopted human come in with an immigrant wave?
appears to be yes: Req469, HUMAN MIGRANT ISSUES, (Future): In the limited test I did of human migrants in a dwarf fortress, there were several issues, including the humans being treated like tame beasts.
1. Will there be drugs, such as Dwarven LSD, Dwarven Cocaine and other drugs? If so will dwarves start having their own black market operations that could be going on under your nose?
I see what you  did there. Also, hashish and opium and related would be more time-appropriate.
What are your plans for giving a use to extracts and soap?
Soap is in next version for sanitation, I keep hearing.

What new spheres do you think you'll add? Could you go into some of what you think sphere-curses would be like?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 07, 2009, 02:34:01 am
What new spheres do you think you'll add? Could you go into some of what you think sphere-curses would be like?

Sphere curses did come up in the last DF Talk, in case you missed it:

Quote
Rainseeker:   [3]Let's talk about spheres for a second. Are the zombies, skeletons, undead and such; are they going to appear only in the undead region sphere now? Or will they come in other areas too.
Toady:   It depends on one of those things we were talking about, like do undead have souls, and what is the undead? If it's somebody combing partially back to life then it could be any sphere that's related to death or rebirth even; it's kind of weird to have the sphere of rebirth have undead things but it's possible.
Rainseeker:   They're good zombies, maybe.
Toady:   Yeah, they're good zombies, with little fairy hats and stuff ... whatever a fairy hat is. But then there's the notion of just animating a corpse, and that's the purview of death or if brooms and stuff are also moving around then it's more of a regular magical thing. But there's also the notion of having some kind of spirits from the underworld populate the body, then that could be any kind of evil.
Ampersand:   There's also another concept of it being a disease that is passed between individuals.
Toady:   Yeah, there's the viral zombie model ... [and] there's also the radiation zombie model I guess. So the viral thing, I don't know ... are they dead? Or are they ...
Capntastic:   Their brain's just messed up by like ...
Toady:   Yeah, viruses. I guess what the 28 Days Later model is it's just sort of a viral rage thing, but they aren't actually dead; is that correct? And then they starve to death. So any of those is fair game as they come up. Now, the undead that'll come in at first; I still have evil regions in this release so things will probably be the same as they were before, and then as I move over to sphere-based regions then at first it's going to be just kind of a death thing I guess, and to make them fairly common those will just be common areas. The whole idea of undead in general is going to be generalised to the notion of a curse, and that could just be some random sphere thing: there could just be a bunch of fire dear, and fire elk, and fire chipmunks and the fire man; that's kind of the cheesy thing that you'd expect out of the game after a while. Of course we can get more sophisticated but you don't start there. Then there's these notions of things like infectious diseases and so on, which we were going to do - not as undead or anything - but just the notion of an infectious disease was going to be part of this release with the venoms, but it was one of those things I had to red out on the list, that I couldn't do diseases because I don't have the time. But anything that's red on that list is pretty much fair game on the short term so I'm not sure what's going on after this. But you can start to move to more and more sophisticated disease models - not just models of their spread which aren't ever going to be that sophisticated in Dwarf Fortress - but just their effects, as we get more and more venom effects and so on; that could actually ... like if you had a venom that can alter your behaviour then you can have a disease that can alter your behaviour. We already have berserker dwarves, so it wouldn't be that far of a step to have a venom and then an infectious disease that can make you berserk, and then you've essentially arrived at the 28 Days Later model.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Sensei on September 07, 2009, 03:00:12 am
Will we be doing anything to have less renditions of engravings of cheese? How about solving the recursive microscopic engraving loop?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Jay on September 07, 2009, 11:56:56 am
What would happen to the game if you were to, say, die unexpectedly?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 07, 2009, 01:12:21 pm

Are there any plans to add Naga into DF? As my favorite fantasy race, I'd love it if they were in.


They sorta already are: Snakemen.

I refuse to acknowledge this half-inclusion.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 07, 2009, 02:14:52 pm
What would happen to the game if you were to, say, die unexpectedly?

Yeah, we've mentioned my untimely demise before, most recently because this town has lots of drunks and meth and some of the stupidest ass people that yell at you from vehicles as you might ever encounter (despite warnings from well-meaning people with misgivings about Texas, nothing ever happened down there, whereas up here in Silverdale I've been yelled at or had crap thrown at me or whatever no fewer than fifteen times while shopping, etc., even though I walked more down there), and the idea was to release everything.  I should amend that though -- if there are suspicions of foul play, and the preponderance of the evidence suggests that the death was related to getting the source released, then, well, no source then.  Yes, you will be punished for the wrongdoings of others, so pray for my safety!  No killing for the source!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Teldin on September 07, 2009, 05:50:24 pm
How would you (Toady) feel if someone made a Dwarf Fortress ripoff? Would it encourage you to work harder or depress you? Do you think your donations would fall?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Neonivek on September 07, 2009, 06:58:45 pm
Quote
I refuse to acknowledge this half-inclusion

Not too much of a difference between Snakemen and Naga except you know... a lot of other things. (Namely that Naga are supernatural creatures)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: James.Denholm on September 07, 2009, 07:50:01 pm
On running multiple fortresses and/or adventurers in the same universe at the same time:

Have you given the idea of running multiple forts at once much thought? Do you expect this to be possible from the whole "run the entire civilisation" thing you were talking about before, or do you expect to use a different mechanic?

Will the player be able to visit a functioning version of his fortress in adventure mode, instead of being restricted to only visiting abandoned fortresses? Perhaps the player will be able to temporarily resign the controll of the fortress? Or might this also somehow be covered in the "run the entire civilisation" mechanic?

Regarding the idea of the player being able to access a quasi-legends-mode while in Fortress or Adventurer mode:

Will the player be able to easily see the state of the world and all it's wars and so on while playing, and perhaps before embarking? For example, I've heard that while WWII was being fought the papers regulaly had little maps showing where the current frount-lines were and so on. I just think it would be rather cool to be able to have a look at where a war is currently being fought, and then deliberatley go and place a fort just behind the lines, to support the army perhaps. That would give the fort a more "real" purpose, because I doubt that the mountainhomes would, in reality, tell a bunch of dwarves to go out to a random spot for no reason at all.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dasleah on September 07, 2009, 08:25:03 pm
It strikes me - is it rude to simply make a new post whenever I think of a question every few days, or should I just edit / amend my previous post(s)? Anyway.

With the introduction of Castes and genetic traits - hair colour, eye colour, and the like - will we see an overhaul of the reproduction system in Dwarf Fortress? Currently I believe the only checks the game makes is 1) Is it the same species? 2) Will they let me? and 3) Is it female? It's up in Eternal Suggestions with a few votes, but it'd be interesting to hear a bit of discussion on it from the developer. Will we see a system where hybrids - such as mules or Ligers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger) (obviously bred for their skills in magic) - be possible? And, through magical or godly means, hybrids between sentient humanoids and Animals (much like the Tiger- or Snailmen, for instance)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 07, 2009, 08:32:11 pm
^^^ There's a dev item that would probably address some of that, although it's pretty open-ended.  A pessimist might even call it deliberately vague:

# Bloat46, PROPER PREGNANCY, (Future): Currently creatures become pregnant from a distance, although it does do a gender check at least.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dasleah on September 07, 2009, 08:36:31 pm
^^^ There's a dev item that would probably address some of that, although it's pretty open-ended.  A pessimist might even call it deliberately vague:

# Bloat46, PROPER PREGNANCY, (Future): Currently creatures become pregnant from a distance, although it does do a gender check at least.

Well, to be fair, there's a Bloat for damn near everything.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 08, 2009, 01:20:19 pm
Do you and Zach often have conflicting ideas regarding DF's features?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dasleah on September 08, 2009, 06:56:06 pm
I am a question MACHINE.

If Bay 12 Games could suddenly and mysteriously acquire any existing games franchise, with full rights to develop sequels or remakes as you see fit, what franchise would you choose?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 08, 2009, 07:01:59 pm
I fell of my bike today and had trouble finding some hydrogen peroxide. That inspired THIS question!

Will medicines/medical supplies come into play, since venom effects are going in? I.E. numbing drugs for surgery, with an option to do it without them? Might the Alchemist's Workshop be relevant here?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Flaming Dorf on September 08, 2009, 07:54:00 pm
Coming from a fellow coder, How do you motivate yourself to get to work in the morning?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: PMantix on September 08, 2009, 08:55:08 pm
Coming from a fellow coder, How do you motivate yourself to get to work through the night?

Fixed.  ;D

That might answer your question too, heh.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Flaming Dorf on September 08, 2009, 09:42:56 pm
Coming from a fellow coder, How do you motivate yourself to get to work through the night?

Fixed.  ;D

That might answer your question too, heh.

Right you are. :P
Coffee is a godsend.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: MrWiggles on September 08, 2009, 09:48:51 pm
Why did you resctict yourself to 16 colors and just the ASCII character set?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 09, 2009, 12:33:21 am
Why did you resctict yourself to 16 colors and just the ASCII character set?

Roguelike standard, I assume.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Sizik on September 09, 2009, 12:45:29 am
Why did you resctict yourself to 16 colors and just the ASCII character set?

Dyes can be 16m colors.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Broose on September 09, 2009, 01:57:24 am
How long will it be before the game's pathfinding supports aquatic and flying races in fortress mode?

Sorry if this has been mentioned before.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: shadow_archmagi on September 09, 2009, 07:40:25 am
Will there ever be an option to switch Adventurers over to the AI so that they can wander around generating legends and changing the world while you play Fortress mode?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: corvvs on September 09, 2009, 10:39:55 am
Edit: "Question" removed.

Yeah, my bad - the "underground" aspect of the voting made me think of it. And I also didn't realize there wasn't a previous bug report for it, I just assumed there would be one. So yeah, confusion of two totally different things in my head resulted in a post somewhere I shouldn't have. My bad!

In other news I posted a bug report for it.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mephansteras on September 09, 2009, 12:12:17 pm
With the talk of various technologies and the thread on the progression of technology, what are your thoughts on it? Right now all races start off at a given tech level and just stay there. Are we going to see some sort of technological progression of races during world-gen at some point?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 09, 2009, 12:23:38 pm
corvvs:  That sounds more like a bug report than an interview question...


Technology in a time, space:  Obviously dwarves have steel and other races don't.  How do you see support for differing tech levels among different entities(civs), races and times behaving?   Do you want to (eventually) support tech evolution on a worldgen timeline?  How much granularity in tech levels do you plan? (Tribal underground animalmen to highly industrial dwarves being the minimum range)  If dwarves can make steel and humans can't, how does that work on a civ level?  Does a dwarf living with humans keep the ability?  A human living with dwarves?

Medicine: There's a lot of talk about new medicine, and even a few comparisons with veterinary medicine.  How do you see the medical profession working in a world with at least 5 intelligent races?  Does it make sense to differentiate Vet medicine from normal Doctors past the point of different races?  Keeping in mind that grapes and chocolate are poisonous to dogs, will medicines even work cross species?  This seems like a good reason for magic to be popular...


Bolded the real questions, drawn out stuff left normal.
A bit ninja'd by Meph, but I'll leave mine as is
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Zironic on September 09, 2009, 01:41:55 pm
Is there a plan to put in the ability to fill areas - like dropping [matter] into a river to dam it or a dock in the ocean?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 09, 2009, 01:43:54 pm
Is there a plan to put in the ability to fill areas - like dropping [matter] into a river to dam it or a dock in the ocean?

This was discussed in some detail in the last interview:

Quote from: DF Talk 2 transcript
Rainseeker:   I think it that it'd be neat if you allowed us to restore walls - like they're caving in little segments of wall - so that once the siege is gone you could restore your fortress to its former beauty, you know for the people that are annoyed by the digging.
Toady:   Yeah, there's revealed tiles ... I think someone suggested being able to unreveal tiles which I've got no problem with because it's not like that's giving you any benefit, it's just an aesthetic thing. As far as rebuilding walls ... it's sort of weird to be able to rebuild something like an ore vein, like put the crystals back or something ...
Capntastic:   The dwarves are really good ...
Toady:   Yeah, that's the thing ... dwarves are talented. It's something that could be ... It's strange, I'd have to think about how does that work, what are they doing, are they just tying it together with special dwarf beard hair or something like that that makes it work or ...
Rainseeker:   They could just be packing [...] the rocks back in, you know the default rocks that are there.
Toady:   It's not like it's the end of the world for me if someone has a wall that looks how they want it to look, right? I shouldn't care about that, but there's just this kind of strangeness to being able to create a perfect rock wall, in terms of the fact that people that are attacking you that mine through it would then have as much trouble as if they were mining through a wall unless there's some kind of flag that says 'this is actually just a rebuilt pile of crap' or something, right? It still bears some thinking about but I'm definitely aware of the aesthetic side of things and I think it's important that a game mechanic just doesn't destroy that for people, especially people that care, and if we can preserve sieges at the same time, like full fully functional sieges that can dig through things, even for people that care more about the aesthetics of their fortress, that would be the best way to do it, but at the same time I don't want to add a really weird mechanic that might screw something else up or just screw the overall feel of things, so it bears some thinking about.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: CobaltKobold on September 09, 2009, 03:24:53 pm
corvvs: sounds likeyou disco'eredthe real,more e'il rock.  :D

The (aquatic/flying/amphibious) race issue is more one of that at present, the pathfinding system does not work with differently-able creatures well, at least long-range (the short-range attack pf is probably jury-rigged atm to work with eagles, imps, usw.)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Fault on September 09, 2009, 06:19:41 pm
I'd like to know exactly how much customization will be offered by the Caste system. Are there any restrictions on things you can change in castes? Can two castes live in different biomes?  
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 09, 2009, 06:23:15 pm
I'd like to know exactly how much customization will be offered by the Caste system. Are there any restrictions on things you can change in castes? Can two castes live in different biomes?  

The biomes thing is a no-go: (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21498.msg371081#msg371081)

Quote from: Toady One
Quote
So, we are just wondering about the possible differences between the castes.  Is it possible that a caste has totally different creature tokes than other castes?

Yeah, most of the tokens work that way.  A few that interact with populations (like biome tokens and frequency) are still creature tokens.
Title: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Trades: Brewing
Post by: HebaruSan on September 09, 2009, 07:20:51 pm
Like one of your co-hosts, I recently made my own beer. This required boiling about 3 gallons of water with malt and grain, then pouring that mixture into another 2 gallons of cold water for cooling, for a 5 gallon batch. And yet the inhabitants of my current fortress, with no access to any water at all, churn out barrel after barrel of beer using only grain.

How do dwarves make beer without water or heat?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 09, 2009, 07:25:57 pm
How do dwarves make beer without water or heat?

Quote from: eduren
Are there plans to change booze production to need a water source?

Yeah, I don't remember if this is up on dev or just something that has come up before.  It's kind of in the same category of making pets eat again.  It needs some peripheral work to make it feasible.  In this case, I'm just a little worried most about having more ways to get water, especially on maps where there would be some reasonable ways to get water that you can't exploit (ice/rain/etc.), and booze is currently your only anti-thirst measure, as wrong as that is.  Ideally, yeah, you'd want them to use some water.
Title: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Players' spiritual epiphanies
Post by: HebaruSan on September 09, 2009, 07:59:06 pm
Thanks, Foot!

I have to admit to being intrigued by the description of the weirdest email Toady One has received. I have likewise felt close at times to a profound realization afforded by operating from the perspective a pseudo-god. But I can't say I've been able to bring that sense to completion.

Can you tell us anything more about the insights that person derived from DF? Failing that, have you received other such emails, and is there a pattern to the ideas they describe? And if not, would you care to share anything further regarding your own cynicism, to which you alluded?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Zironic on September 10, 2009, 02:06:06 pm
Is there a plan to put in the ability to fill areas - like dropping [matter] into a river to dam it or a dock in the ocean?

This was discussed in some detail in the last interview:

Quote from: DF Talk 2 transcript
Rainseeker:   I think it that it'd be neat if you allowed us to restore walls - like they're caving in little segments of wall - so that once the siege is gone you could restore your fortress to its former beauty, you know for the people that are annoyed by the digging.
Toady:   Yeah, there's revealed tiles ... I think someone suggested being able to unreveal tiles which I've got no problem with because it's not like that's giving you any benefit, it's just an aesthetic thing. As far as rebuilding walls ... it's sort of weird to be able to rebuild something like an ore vein, like put the crystals back or something ...
Capntastic:   The dwarves are really good ...
Toady:   Yeah, that's the thing ... dwarves are talented. It's something that could be ... It's strange, I'd have to think about how does that work, what are they doing, are they just tying it together with special dwarf beard hair or something like that that makes it work or ...
Rainseeker:   They could just be packing [...] the rocks back in, you know the default rocks that are there.
Toady:   It's not like it's the end of the world for me if someone has a wall that looks how they want it to look, right? I shouldn't care about that, but there's just this kind of strangeness to being able to create a perfect rock wall, in terms of the fact that people that are attacking you that mine through it would then have as much trouble as if they were mining through a wall unless there's some kind of flag that says 'this is actually just a rebuilt pile of crap' or something, right? It still bears some thinking about but I'm definitely aware of the aesthetic side of things and I think it's important that a game mechanic just doesn't destroy that for people, especially people that care, and if we can preserve sieges at the same time, like full fully functional sieges that can dig through things, even for people that care more about the aesthetics of their fortress, that would be the best way to do it, but at the same time I don't want to add a really weird mechanic that might screw something else up or just screw the overall feel of things, so it bears some thinking about.
No, that doesn't answer my question at all. They are talking about rebuilding areas to look like they once were. I'm talking about creating dams and docks in a feasible way. Currently, you have to drain the river, put in the dam, then stop draining it. I want to drop fill into the river till it is blocked. It's a common thing done for years, mostly with garbage.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 10, 2009, 02:28:19 pm
Oops, yeah, my bad.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 10, 2009, 02:30:53 pm
There WAS a bit talking about that, though
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Neoskel on September 11, 2009, 02:29:21 am
What are the plans on carrying/transporting other creatures in adventure mode? Could someone do something like carry a ratman in their backpack which they take out and squeeze every so often for wrestling practice?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Craftling on September 11, 2009, 02:53:14 am
Why is it Bay 12? What about Bay 13 and Bay 11?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 11, 2009, 03:12:33 am
Why is it Bay 12? What about Bay 13 and Bay 11?

It's a reference to Aliens.  While Ripley is operating the loader at the beginning, the sergeant tells her to put something in "Bay 12 please!"
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: kurokikaze on September 11, 2009, 09:07:25 am
What about some additional tools for mining? Like hand-barrow for quick hauling of all this stone lying around?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Kiberkiller on September 11, 2009, 09:58:33 am
Will it be possible to start own fortress in Adventure Mode (having adventure as a leader) and/or doing stuff you usually do in Fortress mode (like digging/building)?

Will 'Player' be represented as a single dwarf in Fortress Mode?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Kiberkiller on September 11, 2009, 10:23:50 am
Will there be more build-in music?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Kiberkiller on September 11, 2009, 10:38:27 am
Will you make some kind of Legendary summary for players to be able to 'get in' to the world faster? (so that you can quickly see what is happening in the world right now. helps RPing.)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: lordnincompoop on September 11, 2009, 01:09:49 pm
Currently during world generation, all cultural growth and technological growth remains static. Will we ever be able to start up worlld generation and have the civillizations actually discover and invent new technology, science and magic? Will we be able to, say, run World Gen for 5 years and play with a bunch of cavedwarves, World Gen for 20 years and end up with Viking dwarves, World Gen for 50 and get Dark Age dwarves, World Gen for 100 and get Medieval dwarves and just World Gen for the default 200 and get the current Early-ish Renaissance dwarves? If so, will the different civillizations get different rates of development and develop different cultures?

Will we be able to "re World Gen" after we made a world, like a Fast Forward function? What about going back in World Gen time, a la time travel, and maybe even affecting the history of the future?


As for the doctors, will we be able to place an order for surgery of some dwarf that's injured, and will the doctor be able to do that themselves? If so, will we be able to place surgery/amputation orders for perfectly healthy dwarves?


Will we have a "race selection screen" for Dwarf Mode like in Adventurer Mode, where one can select different races to build settlements with?

Will there ever be a definite fix to the catsplosion bug/feature and the-quite literally-legions of tens of thousands of stones? Will you do something about the Dwarven Atom Smasher bug/feature?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Armok on September 11, 2009, 02:11:49 pm
If I remember correctly, DF was originally written in C and at some later point updated to C++. What was behind those choices? Have you ever regretted that you didn't chose another language? Do you keep up and sometimes consider how other languages might relate to DF development? Is it likely that at some point in the future DF will be updated to some other, perhaps not yet invented, language? Do you think it is likely that some day C++ will become obsolete for some reason, and what will you do then?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 11, 2009, 02:37:35 pm

Will we be able to "re World Gen" after we made a world, like a Fast Forward function? What about going back in World Gen time, a la time travel, and maybe even affecting the history of the future?[/color]

That's been quoted as an 'eventually' thing timed with when the world keeps running in fortress mode.  (I.E. the world will continue to run while you're in a fort too.)

Will there ever be a definite fix to the catsplosion bug/feature?[/color]

Spay and Neutering in a period appropriate way is an 'eventually goal' as well

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: TheDJ17 on September 11, 2009, 03:32:55 pm
I've noticed that traders bring me goods decorated with wood and assorted types of rocks, why can't I do that?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: lucusLoC on September 11, 2009, 06:59:26 pm
wrong thread ;-)

anyhoo

i had a few threads up a while ago postulating on how to run an ai city, and since i find the world gen facinating i would like to ask the question:

how are sites going to affect world gen history (fortified sites vs twonships, combat vs trade) and how do you plan to make sites more interesting?

for example, will the new world gen combat be able to take into account how defensible a site is? will we be able to see towns with elaborate wall sytems and towers? are there plans for worldgen to be able to use player designed constructions?

also, does toady find threads that talk about functinaliy usefull, or does he prefer to think about the implementation of game mechanics/other sugestions on his own?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: cooz on September 12, 2009, 04:57:36 am
If it wasn't answered already somewhere:

Is it known already what release after upcoming one will be all about?

and if it was, link please? ;)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 12, 2009, 05:04:25 am
If it wasn't answered already somewhere:

Is it known already what release after upcoming one will be all about?

and if it was, link please? ;)

Came up in the List thread:

In any case, the idea for the release *after* this next release is going to be to tackle one of the main army issues (improved sieges or sending out armies) as well as to take honest stabs at the top 10 or so entries from eternal suggestions (farming is currently among them), and there will probably be another item or two from dev_next that isn't from the Army Arc, though what we want to do from among those constantly shifts.

And also in the first DF Talk: (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/df_talk.html)

Quote from: DF Talk 1 Transcript
This also turned out, as far as the timing of 'when are we going to see this kind of thing', there's the return of the guilds, or I don't remember exactly what it's called, up in the eternal suggestions voting up on the suggestions list and it's doing pretty well. I said I'd take a look at the top ones there for next time - now by next time I mean the next series of releases because I really hope I never have a release this long again, it's going to be over a year - so in the short term we're going to be looking at this stuff, it's not like it's just something I'm talking about; we're going to look at this along with the adventurer's skills stuff and the improved sieges; job priorities; improved hauling; I don't remember if improved farming is up there; increased tile support for graphics ... whatever things were up there that people wanted we're going to be looking at.

So, in summary: improved sieges, adventurer skills, (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_next.html) and the top 10 entries on Eternal Suggestion Voting, (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24818.0) which are currently:

Note that the ESV entries will be considered for implementation -- no guarantees.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: cooz on September 12, 2009, 06:27:51 am
Thanks, that's pretty awesome!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 12, 2009, 12:13:12 pm
How do you see the balance of simulation versus gameplay playing out in adventure mode?

Specifically, what sorts of 'cheats' to make things more interesting do you plan?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: James.Denholm on September 12, 2009, 09:36:34 pm
Question regarding the Dwarf Fortress in general:

What level of detail do you plan to put into Dwarf Fortress before it is finished? I'll give an example regarding fingernails and toenails. In real life, uncut toenails tend to damage socks. If they are left uncut, and continue to grow, they become a serious health hazard when playing water polo. Will this sort of thing be modelled? Can we expect to see wrestlers who find it necessary to have massive rock-hard toenails and to never wear shoes? Can we expect to see mother dwarves fixing up the socks of her children because she left her nail clippers at the mountainhomes?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: G-Flex on September 13, 2009, 12:38:46 pm
Regarding the "plaster casts" in the dev list:

What sort of plaster will the casts be made out of, exactly? I've read a tiny amount on the subject and the closest thing to Medieval plaster casts I could find were made from stuff like egg and flour, whereas gypsum-style plaster is from the early 19th century or so.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Lemunde on September 13, 2009, 01:19:16 pm
Is there ever going to be anything added(beyond garbage dumps) to help deal with clutter such as clothing and armor left by goblins in traps?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 13, 2009, 01:25:32 pm
Is there ever going to be anything added(beyond garbage dumps) to help deal with clutter such as clothing and armor left by goblins in traps?

An addendum;

Currently, the dropped loot of Goblin invaders adds to your fortress' imported wealth, even if you leave it all unclaimed on the battlefield. Will the new corpse-container system help alleviate this problem , and/or will GCS silk be more limited to prevent inflation?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 13, 2009, 03:01:53 pm
Regarding the "plaster casts" in the dev list:

What sort of plaster will the casts be made out of, exactly? I've read a tiny amount on the subject and the closest thing to Medieval plaster casts I could find were made from stuff like egg and flour, whereas gypsum-style plaster is from the early 19th century or so.

Do you think it'd be cheating to give the dorfs rock castes a few centuries early?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: G-Flex on September 13, 2009, 03:51:50 pm
I don't know. I mean, breaks from historical reality are obviously okay if they're actually justified. Of course, "justified" means more than saying "well, they could have done it if they had the knowledge" because that pretty much means anything is fair game. I just noticed that plaster casts as we think of them haven't been around for very long, but I know that Toady doesn't like to venture too far into anachronistic territory.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Hummingbird on September 13, 2009, 05:00:21 pm
How do you see all the changes in the game as regards wounds and health care affecting Adventurer mode?  Will I still be able to instantly recover from almost any wound by traveling, or would I have to seek real care in a town for the more severe, category-red wounds?  Also, would I be able to recruit "medic"-type sidekicks who could provide some of these kinds of services without having to travel back to a town?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Goberfish on September 13, 2009, 08:49:42 pm
Will different types of soap have different effects for cleaning? Such as smells or efficiency or something?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Faces of Mu on September 14, 2009, 04:32:40 am
-Answered-

How has the "Dwarfs remain inside" functionality been changed for this next release? What will it look like in the future?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 14, 2009, 04:37:05 am
How has the "Dwarfs remain inside" functionality been changed for this next release? What will it look like in the future?

It's been replaced with burrows.

Quote from: dev log
06/17/2009: So somebody asked if it's possible to use civilians for jobs and so on while the alert is on, in the zone to which they've been restricted. I was originally thinking more of shorter alerts where you just wanted to get them away from someplace dangerous while you fought something out. However, while I was working on it, I decided I might as well make it more diverse, so I put in burrows.

The ill-named burrows are larger sections of your fortress where dwarves live and work and to which you can restrict their movements. Dwarves can be assigned to multiple burrows, and you can paint them with your mouse in a few brush sizes or lay them out in multiple rectangles (a burrow need not be a rectangle). Any number of burrows can overlap and you can give them names and an ASCII symbol.

Dwarves will only use workshops, stockpiles, living areas, meeting halls, etc. in the burrows to which they are assigned. I've removed all of the "entrance dance" code so that they can survive the mental trauma of not being in their assigned locations, and they can cross locations that aren't in their burrow, but they'll maintain the restrictions in the general sense described above.

There are many, many ways in which this can be useful for controlling labor (you could even have your experienced miners mine veins of your choosing in this way -- it'd be a slightly clunky workaround, but it works). Just the basic burrow mechanic is powerful enough that it is pretty exploitable, so there will be several ways in which dwarves either move beyond their burrows or are affected adversely by heavy restrictions, but I'll leave those for you to find. These effects should all make sense and not be all that restrictive on play, especially if you are respectful to your critters (for instance, having your soap makers all stand in a 3x3 corner in the main hall until they starve to death shouldn't proceed as planned for very long).

A dwarf not specifically assigned to a burrow can work anywhere, but in the future there might be, say, a restricted burrow setting or something that'll exclude such dwarves. There are also items posted on dev about burrow hauling jobs and burrow production limits and all of whatever -- I haven't done any of that. Things like restricting manager orders to certain burrows etc. would all be great (and faster than doing it via particular workshops in general), but I don't want to get too far afield for this release (since I'm already far afield). In any case, the core work and mechanics are done.

Getting back to the immediate topic, alerts can now just restrict civilians to a set of burrows, with the further restriction that they should get to this set of burrows with priority. If a dwarf then doesn't feel comfortable working there because they were previous assigned to areas outside the alert area, they'll be idle as before, but it's a smaller problem than the one described in the beginning of the first paragraph, and it can be easily corrected if you plan on or are forced to stay in that alert state for a prolonged period. Giving individual dwarves different burrow assignments based on their alert state could be a future possibility (perhaps in conjunction with the work-gang class of ideas), but that's not in the cards for this release.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Faces of Mu on September 14, 2009, 04:40:30 am
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Faces of Mu on September 14, 2009, 04:42:45 am
Thanks, Footkerchief. Any idea if burrows are restricted to the traditional "inside" parameters (under natural ground), or if we can also make them aboveground or outside?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 14, 2009, 04:48:10 am
Thanks, Footkerchief. Any idea if burrows are restricted to the traditional "inside" parameters (under natural ground), or if we can also make them aboveground or outside?

Looks like they can be wherever you want:

Quote from: dev log
07/16/2009: [...] I got a chance to test alerts and burrows today. I set a couple of 3x3 burrows a good distance (~60 tiles) apart outside and made two alerts, each one restricting civilians to a different burrow. Then I mercilessly shifted the alert state back and forth. They ran between the two rectangles, responding immediately to each change. I didn't see any "entrance dance" style movement, and the fisherdwarf that was out fishing cancelled his job promptly and joined in on the fun. There are probably problems here and there, but it seems to be working fine. Generally, they'll search out meeting halls and other places to hang out in the alert burrows, but if they don't have any of those, they'll just stand anywhere in the burrow. They can work in the alert burrows, but I haven't yet handled merging regular burrow assignments with civilian alert burrow assignments (I'll do that before the release). There's a lot that can be done here, but this initial step will keep civilians safely tucked away while your soldiers deal with an immediate threat.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Kiberkiller on September 14, 2009, 06:51:09 am
-snip-
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: smjjames on September 14, 2009, 09:35:50 am
Will the liason and the king/queen be replaced by a successor in the new version if they die in Fort mode?

I'm just wondering about this as it would make sense. If the king/queen had any children, the eldest would ascend to the throne. If there aren't any heirs, I'm not sure how they do it but they definetly select a new monarch in the legends when there aren't any heirs.

To balance it out, maybe it would take a few years for a liason to be selected again (to discourage abuse of intentionally killing the liason).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: CobaltKobold on September 14, 2009, 09:50:39 am
Will the liason and the king/queen be replaced by a successor in the new version if they die in Fort mode?
I think so.
Quote from: ToadyOne's List

# Handle some other election/succession issues
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 14, 2009, 12:14:02 pm
Will it be possible to mod creatures to attack with several bodyparts at ance? (all the claws or several tentacles at once)

Yeah, multi-body-part attacks are in. (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html)

Quote from: dev log
01/16/2009: 837. Added nails (this will be most apparent once I get the raws back in for things like the big cats, as it'll need to get at the claw material to do damage properly), redefined natural attacks to allow multiple parts (mainly for claws and biting) though it's limited in some ways, went back and started in on the necessary updates for wrestling.

Followup: (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21498.msg399576#msg399576)

Quote from: Toady One
It's a simultaneous attack with multiple parts (for things like clawing with all your claws or biting with all your teeth), but its implementation is quite gutter right now.  I'm not sure if I'll get a chance to improve it this time around.  I was really just going for getting claw/bite attacks to work properly.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Kiberkiller on September 14, 2009, 03:19:10 pm
Thank you, removed my question.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Torham on September 15, 2009, 02:00:40 am

* edited typo

** lol, my question is like 3 posts up, and answered, so i removed mine (i was asking about replacement liason). Sorry for the mess.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Aqizzar on September 15, 2009, 03:38:57 am
Considering all of the other changes to the way bodies behave, will aging work any differently in this release?  Such as the classic case of the 150 year old liaison who runs around like Superman up to the moment he croaks.  If this hasn't been changed yet, what are your plans for modeling aging effects?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 15, 2009, 01:43:38 pm
Do surgeries cause pain? If so, will there be painkillers as optional "ingredients" for a surgery job in the future?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: TheDJ17 on September 15, 2009, 03:30:57 pm
And how, if at all, would you show the addictiveness of the more powerful pain killers?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Aqizzar on September 15, 2009, 09:03:21 pm
Biologically induced alcoholism isn't enough?

Had to throw that in there.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 16, 2009, 03:18:44 am
In an ideal world, would you still have released DF as an alpha, or waited until it was in a more complete state?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Jakkarra on September 17, 2009, 01:53:13 am
At the end of the development cycle, how "intelligent" do you expect the Dwarves (or any race for that matter) Artifcial intelligence? How much stuff will have to be abstracted still, due to engine limitations?

Or

What sorts of new injuries and healthcare things are you willing to inform us of?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 17, 2009, 08:44:15 am
You say AI like it means something?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Darkerson on September 17, 2009, 10:00:40 am
What are the specs of your own computer (OS, Ram, CPU, etc) and how well does the game perform for yourself?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: A_Big_Bear on September 17, 2009, 10:31:45 pm
What is your view on Obama's health care plan?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Jakkarra on September 18, 2009, 03:25:57 am
A_Big_Bear, this isnt about political discussions.

Questions on Dwarf Fortress.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: shadow_archmagi on September 18, 2009, 07:23:18 am
A_Big_Bear, this isnt about political discussions.

Questions on Dwarf Fortress.

I think dwarves need a public option
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: alway on September 18, 2009, 08:47:32 am
A_Big_Bear, this isnt about political discussions.

Questions on Dwarf Fortress.

I think dwarves need a public option
Only until the economic system gets fixed, then if they can't pay for it, they are left on the field to die.
Aside from the independant mini-releases whose purpose is to increase game speed, what, if anything, will you be doing on your end to help keep FPS high?
When, if ever, can we expect to see automated/ dwarf powered drilling machines?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: tigrex on September 18, 2009, 10:58:45 am
Hi.

Are Dwarf Fortress and Legend modes ever going to be integrated?  For example, right now, if a dragon shows up in DF, I cannot really know much about it unless I visit its legends page after the fortress expires.  It would be much cooler if one could get a link to an entity's Legends entry when selecting them, be they civs, megabeasts or really old goblins.

Will it ever be possible to have the game pause and zoom in on a dwarf when it dies?  I'm routinely pestered when Urist strikes microcline, but news of my axedwarf being snuffed is all too easy to miss.

Last talk, you mentioned an eventual goal to have hundreds or thousands of attackers, who siege the fort in much smaller groups.  Consequently, world populations will be much higher.  How do you imagine presenting the player with all this new information?  How would the game cope with so many peope?  Most importantly, how will you get over the feeling that these people are essentially ghosts, since the CPU will only tolerate a couple of hundred dwarves  or so onscreen?  For example, what would a thousand or so dwarves be doing outside your fort, fighting the goblins as they approached, with the actual fort only having 200?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 18, 2009, 01:36:47 pm
Will it ever be possible to have the game pause and zoom in on a dwarf when it dies?  I'm routinely pestered when Urist strikes microcline, but news of my axedwarf being snuffed is all too easy to miss.

This has been implemented for the next version. (http://bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2009-02-19)  You can enable or disable options like auto-pause, recentering, etc. for any announcement type.  So you won't have to get pested by the microcline either.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: cibbuano on September 18, 2009, 05:48:00 pm
I love reading the dev log and seeing all the fascinating details that have been put into DF. I'd like to know:

How will the player be able to appreciate the level of detail and intricacy that is being added to the game? Will there be massive amounts of information being generated every second about battles and injuries, and the player will have to sift through it all?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Sizik on September 18, 2009, 06:40:33 pm
In the far future, when you can choose to be an adventurer, start a dwarf/elf/human/super-cool-mod-race settlement, or lead an entire civilization, will you drop Dwarf Fortress from the name, and just leave it Slaves to Armok: God of Blood Chapter II?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: chaturga on September 19, 2009, 07:06:38 pm
Do you have any intention of making some of the more misc items made in certain craft processes (Such as toy anvils/mini-forges) useful? Including children being able to use theese to gain their respective skills when they grow up (Somthing like a child plays with a toy axe, and grows into a pesant with atleast some skill in axes)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 19, 2009, 07:11:44 pm
Do you have any intention of making some of the more misc items made in certain craft processes (Such as toy anvils/mini-forges) useful? Including children being able to use theese to gain their respective skills when they grow up (Somthing like a child plays with a toy axe, and grows into a pesant with atleast some skill in axes)
Its been mentioned by toady that he does intends of making all or at least most misc items useful at some point (including cups, toys and instruments), though I lack Footkerchief's talent of finding the correct quote.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Warlord255 on September 19, 2009, 07:18:02 pm
Hi.

Are Dwarf Fortress and Legend modes ever going to be integrated?  For example, right now, if a dragon shows up in DF, I cannot really know much about it unless I visit its legends page after the fortress expires.  It would be much cooler if one could get a link to an entity's Legends entry when selecting them, be they civs, megabeasts or really old goblins.

If a civ-entity had a cache of information it knows - such as goblins it's interacted with and dragons it's heard about - that information could be made available to the player. That'd be pretty neat.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Hummingbird on September 20, 2009, 12:40:11 am
Hi.

Are Dwarf Fortress and Legend modes ever going to be integrated?  For example, right now, if a dragon shows up in DF, I cannot really know much about it unless I visit its legends page after the fortress expires.  It would be much cooler if one could get a link to an entity's Legends entry when selecting them, be they civs, megabeasts or really old goblins.

If a civ-entity had a cache of information it knows - such as goblins it's interacted with and dragons it's heard about - that information could be made available to the player. That'd be pretty neat.

I think Toady's said that he'll make it possible to listen in on conversations going on between dwarves, so maybe we'll hear something like "Ozo Flamesconsumed the Incendiary Actions? That's the bugger what torched all of Potatosqueezed in 73!" 

But until then, a link to their Legends mode page should be a good placeholder.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Neonivek on September 20, 2009, 12:51:51 am
Quote
when you can choose to be an adventurer, start a dwarf/elf/human/super-cool-mod-race settlement, or lead an entire civilization

Leading entire civilisations isn't that far off. We will have that before Non-Dwarf Settlements.

Also WHOA question explosion.

Edit Addition: I mistaken this for the "Future of the Fortress" topic. No wonder people were asking soo many questions. Ill leave this up since it is still valid. Though I appologise for this silly mistake.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Sizik on September 22, 2009, 01:32:33 pm
One of the earliest changes was making "a region's raw files reside inside of the region save folders." To what extent does this happen? How does this affect genning a new world? Does it pick the "main raws" in the \raw\objects folder, or can you have a list of different raws to choose from?

[suggestion]
One idea I thought of was having the raws compiled into a single file, so mods can be more easily distributed, along with a separate raw file compiler/decompiler for editing and packaging. The files would be kept in \data\objects, and when genning a world, one would choose between "Default" (vanilla), "Custom" (whatever's in \raw\objects), and whatever raw files are in the folder. The new region would have a copy of the raws in the region folder, so that one can edit the original without affecting the region.[/suggestion]
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 22, 2009, 04:16:05 pm
Lotsa people voted for the underground civs discussion, but I'm not seeing any actual questions about them...
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Armok on September 22, 2009, 04:39:40 pm
How different will the various animalmen be? Will they be individual unique races, or a "anthropomorphic" teamplate asigned to an animal to create races that are mentally very similar? What are kobolds compared to animal men? It seems like the above ground animal men will be connected to the elves somehow, will this count for the underground ones as well, or if not will there be other differences between above- and below ground animal peoples?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on September 22, 2009, 04:52:28 pm
will we ever be able to visit living fortresses in adventurer mode? or abandoning them but not deserting them: starting a new fortress on a world that already has a fortress running?
and visitors? an AI adventurer passing trough my fort location, stoping to buy some equipment or having a drink at the tavern, or the human caravan guards heading to the tavern to taste some of the legendary dwarven plump helmet wine...
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: jimi12 on September 22, 2009, 05:06:58 pm
Do you plan on adding a live calendar that tracks days, months, year that is visible throughout gameplay? Perhaps toggleable?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Sizik on September 22, 2009, 06:07:30 pm
Do you plan on adding a live calendar that tracks days, months, year that is visible throughout gameplay? Perhaps toggleable?

You can check the date on the status (z) screen in dwarf mode, or with (D) in adventure mode.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: wilsonns on September 22, 2009, 07:38:28 pm
The county arc and Army arc(that are my favorites) will come togheter?what's the current version of amry arc?

Would be fun starting fortresses out of map limits
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 23, 2009, 10:12:26 am
You mentioned dwarves healing at a different rate then in adventure mode.  Are you happy with the way time flows in Fortress Mode and Adventure Mode? Are you considering trying to align them?  Do you see there being a day/night cycle in Fortress mode?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mr_Bucket_Hat on September 23, 2009, 02:38:52 pm
Is green the colour for questions?

Wait. Nevermind.

Is there any fan made mod/program to tell you your dwarves age? Will this be a possible feature in further updates?

Sorry for such mundane questions.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 23, 2009, 02:46:34 pm
Is there any fan made mod/program to tell you your dwarves age? Will this be a possible feature in further updates?

It's coming in the next version: (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2009-08-05)

Quote from: dev log
08/05/2009: It was Zach's birthday today. In honor of the occasion, it'll now display a dwarf's birthday and his or her age in the description, if the world is old enough for that to make sense. Otherwise it'll just put the effective age. I've also done some more with descriptions in general, though not enough to call it good yet.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Jakkarra on September 23, 2009, 03:01:50 pm
Not seen you in a while Footkerchief.

How much do you enjoy making DF? What is your motivation?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mr_Bucket_Hat on September 23, 2009, 03:38:46 pm
Thanks for that Footerchief.

I play because Its fun, in depth, has so much thought put into features that modern games don't come close, gameplay mechanics that mimick reality, has Zombie dragons, Rockfall traps, and, among others, but the most important: Its about Dwarves. Dwarves. There is not a single science fiction writer who will omit them, because they are the things that ensure the sucess of their books. Take Terry Pratchett. Neil Gaiman. J.R.R Tolkien. J.K Rowling slipped past with Flitwick. Christine Meyers is an anomaly that will be corrected as soon as possible.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: ILikePie on September 24, 2009, 12:49:49 am
Can you milk cows, camels, etc. yet?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: CobaltKobold on September 24, 2009, 02:27:02 am
Can you milk cows, camels, etc. yet?
Quote from: Org
1: Will milking be updated? To where we can milk cows?
1 Nope.
I think he's said so again a bit more optimistically (that it was going to be "easy to  put in" with creature extract materials defined) but my search-fu is weaker than Footkerchief's.

Don't you mean fantasy, Mr_Bucket_Hat? Besides, Rowling sort of had goblins-as-dwarfs- mine carts, love of gold, dour, subterranean...
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: yarr on September 24, 2009, 10:30:45 am
Will you add n-core support? You know with 100+ dwarves forts tend to get pretty slow
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mr_Bucket_Hat on September 24, 2009, 10:53:19 am
Can you milk cows, camels, etc. yet?
Quote from: Org
1: Will milking be updated? To where we can milk cows?
1 Nope.
I think he's said so again a bit more optimistically (that it was going to be "easy to  put in" with creature extract materials defined) but my search-fu is weaker than Footkerchief's.

Don't you mean fantasy, Mr_Bucket_Hat? Besides, Rowling sort of had goblins-as-dwarfs- mine carts, love of gold, dour, subterranean...

Yeah, yours is more accurate. Sci fi would include star trek and the such. And that makes it all the more strange, does it not? That Dwarves are lobbed in with the likes of goblins? Those green skinned snivelling excuses for external sources of looting?

Will beasts of labor, Musk oxs, donkeys, Elephants and the such, be given alternative jobs than pet/refrigerator? I mean, to operate the quern, operate pumps, perhaps be armored and set loose on attacking enemies? Maybe allow Dwarves to cart materials to stockpiles more convienently? Rather than having 1 dwarf 1 stone, 1 muskox, 1 wagon, 200 stone?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: smjjames on September 24, 2009, 11:51:27 am
The goblins in Harry Potter (the movie at least, haven't read the book) had pinkish skin though.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Mr_Bucket_Hat on September 24, 2009, 01:07:55 pm
They're still goblins. Goblin in name, goblin in nature. A goblin painting himself pink and acting miserly is amusing, nothing more. A mere thing to giggle at before you clove his head in two and shoot him full of bolts.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Granite26 on September 24, 2009, 01:41:43 pm
How will AI look in the future in terms of behaviours?  Will an unusually intelligent animal-man act more like a human than his peers?  What range of behaviours do you plan on supporting?  How will those behaviours be implimented in the RAWS?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Fieari on September 25, 2009, 01:54:01 pm
Here's some questions related to the topic of the month.

You've previously stated that all the animalmen have at the very least friendly diplomatic relations with each other, if not actually being the same nation. What is the relation of the underground animalmen to the aboveground animalmen?

How will the underground animalmen relate to the elves?

Do the underground animalmen have the same spirit-worshipping religion as aboveground animalmen?

What is the relation of the underground animalmen to the NEW hfs?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 25, 2009, 02:03:17 pm
You've previously stated that all the animalmen have at the very least friendly diplomatic relations with each other, if not actually being the same nation. What is the relation of the underground animalmen to the aboveground animalmen?

How will the underground animalmen relate to the elves?

Do the underground animalmen have the same spirit-worshipping religion as aboveground animalmen?

Some partial answers that might help you frame your questions:

Quote from: Neonivek
Toady what are the future plans for the Beastmen in the sense of a social/civilisation structure if I am allowed to ask? Will they be Civilised or as an "Intelligent" creature will they automatically be drawn to form societies?

These change quite a bit.  We want the aboveground Animal Peoples more or less aligned with regional spirits and uneasily with elves when they are in contact, but the underground Animal Peoples are more insane and antisocial and also use crude weapons where the aboveground ones might not.  Ideally the intelligent creatures will be able to form structures for their societies themselves -- it's a difficult problem though, so we're going to start that experiment with the goblins, who will not have any pre-defined entity positions.

[...]

Entity definitions could always accept more than one creature, but this doesn't mean that the creatures occur within the same instance of that civilization.  It distributes them evenly -- there is a new full entity definition for the underground animal peoples, and it has 8 creature entries.  This means that for each layer, it'll choose from among the 8 available and create a layer civ, just of that kind.  You can change the selection of weapons and everything else in the raws there.  Because the civ is "LAYER_LINKED", a shortcut flag until I sort this out, things like trading and so on won't be respected.  It's a catch-all flag much like BABY_SNATCHER and NUISANCE used to be, and it'll undergo the same kind of evolution most likely, until things start to make more sense.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Fieari on September 25, 2009, 09:45:57 pm
Yes, but since this is the topic of the month, it'd be nice to elaborate wouldn't it?  :)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: thobal on September 26, 2009, 12:52:37 am
will the dwarven civilizations take advantage of the underground spaces? will there ever be things like giant magma conduits or aqueducts that you can request built past your fort?

I got the idea from the name "magma man" thinking that on magma free maps you ask one of the liaisons to get one under construction. It might cost a few million dwarfbucks, ten champions, and a two young maidens, of virtues pure.

so a few years go by, and on a low level the team digs its way under your fort and you get this really neat economic boost. also, the conduits and ducts could become a haven for firemen, imps, kobolds and frogmen.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: carebear on September 26, 2009, 03:20:03 am
With so many things that need adding or reworking and a constant flow of bug reports and suggestions from players, how do you manage to keep track of all of that and decide what needs attention first?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Fieari on September 26, 2009, 07:19:45 pm
will the dwarven civilizations take advantage of the underground spaces? will there ever be things like giant magma conduits or aqueducts that you can request built past your fort?

I got the idea from the name "magma man" thinking that on magma free maps you ask one of the liaisons to get one under construction. It might cost a few million dwarfbucks, ten champions, and a two young maidens, of virtues pure.

so a few years go by, and on a low level the team digs its way under your fort and you get this really neat economic boost. also, the conduits and ducts could become a haven for firemen, imps, kobolds and frogmen.

To be more specific:

Players like to do things like flood the world, or forge new rivers-- and within your embark area, you can do this.  Once you leave dwarf mode and explore in adventure mode however, things don't seem to really change much worldmap wise.  Are world spanning changes like this in the pipeline?

Right now, roads are built between cities.  Are there plans to expand this to other constructions such as "Great Walls" or aquaducts/magmaducts? (to rephrase the quoted question above)

The previews of the underground areas have shown that they can be HUGE, and in fact be nearly ocean-sized.  This has also been cited as a reason for
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
. Will players be able to embark with only half one of these underground oceans on their map, and if so, what happens when they try to drain it?[/color]
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: XSI on September 28, 2009, 03:51:07 pm
The answer may be out there somewhere already, but anyway

With the new hospital and doctordwarves, will we see a chance of the dead dwarves to get an autopsy done on them? I'm mostly asking this because I want to know how my dwarves die, and just seeing a corpse somewhere with the message he died still makes what happened a mystery.

edit: Thanks Footkerchief, I knew that, I just temporarily forgot since this is going to be a very big new version, and there's just too many good things to remember.

Besides, I think I'll keep the question for the sake of the mental picture of Urist performing an autopsy on Urist, using an axe or sword.
"These deep cuts make me think he died from an axe to the chest!"
"No Urist, the axe to the chest was to see if his hearth was still working when he died."
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Footkerchief on September 28, 2009, 03:58:48 pm
^^^ Not an answer, just some info: "corpses and severed body parts" (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2009-01-06) retain information about wounds now, even after the creature dies.  So it's increasingly feasible.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Slogo on September 29, 2009, 02:21:03 pm
Maybe this isn't quite the question for a show but

Any chance modders could get an advanced peek at the tokens and tags for custom workshops so we can start coding some up now?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Dakk on September 29, 2009, 06:45:42 pm
With the new randomly generated creatures, will their names also be randomly generated (ala kobold quest, maybe?), or they'll just be called amorphous round shelled ball of pus or something?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: Jakkarra on September 29, 2009, 06:53:56 pm
Will it be possible to strike up relations with the new Beastmen? Treating them as a race like the Goblins or Elves?

If so, will it be confined to worldgen as usual, or will there be a way to stave off their attack non-violently at all?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #3: Your Questions!
Post by: CobaltKobold on September 29, 2009, 08:03:23 pm
Will it be possible to strike up relations with the new Beastmen? Treating them as a race like the Goblins or Elves?

If so, will it be confined to worldgen as usual, or will there be a way to stave off their attack non-violently at all?

No, just like kobolds and goblins at times (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=41287.msg780239#msg780239)