Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Modding => Masterwork DF => Topic started by: smakemupagus on May 21, 2018, 12:48:01 am

Title: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 21, 2018, 12:48:01 am
I have a (very streamlined, and somewhat rebalanced, etc.) version of Orc Fortress playable in vanilla 0.44.09.  I'll certainly pop it up for release once i've played through a couple times and have any confidence that it might not be terribly buggy. 

let me know if there's any:
(a) interest in it before it's debugged?
(b) fixes you all made to Orc Fort in past years that i should incorporate?
(c) new version of Masterwork in development for 44.xx in which case maybe i won't work too hard on vanilla?

cheers
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 21, 2018, 06:08:01 pm
I am still not really going to be very active on forums but i will update this as I play/tinker.  Happy to take feedback & suggestions.

Link to download:
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13773

Quote
Conversion of the Orc Fortress mod from Masterwork DF to vanilla DF 0.44, by the original author. Rebalanced orc attributes and weapons for vanilla. Ashland elves and human corsairs are available for war with dwarves and trade with orcs (if their ethics permit). 

Players of the old Orc Fortress may notice that a lot (~60%) of features are not currently here, particularly those which have been superceded by vanilla content (raiding, reactions selecting specific materials), depend on DF HACK (magic and poisons), or were specific to the Masterwork setting (steampunk, lamellar leather, etc.). Many things were streamlined to reduce complexity and use vanilla assets where possible (e.g., atlatls use arrows rather than javelins).

Releasing as "0.1" since it may be playable? the error log was clean, but very little is tested.  World gen and a year or two of an orc fort worked for me in 0.44.09 Starter Pack.  Remember to check your trading partners race & select your entity accordingly before embark.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Avacado on May 23, 2018, 12:17:40 am
A - yes!

B - Nope.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 23, 2018, 02:16:29 am
Thanks for reply.  I'm having fun with the version 0.1 posted above.  Haven't found too many bugs, although i'm just playing and not really testing anything systematically. 

The elves are definitely trolling me with their annual "tribute" of a small dress and one tame crow  ::) 
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Lianjan on May 23, 2018, 05:00:01 pm
An early release would be cool i would play that
I always wanted orc fortress for vanilla
masterwork is cool but it might be a while for a new release
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 24, 2018, 12:01:26 am
Link is up there in the 2nd post! ^^^

Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: SpiritArmor on May 26, 2018, 11:36:07 am
Oh nice! I'm glad you're getting back into this, I look forward to giving this a whirl. Do I need to drop this into the 44.09 starter pack, or would a standalone 44.09 be okay?

Will you be bumping this up to 44.10+ eventually? Toady fixed emotions/memories, so dwarves can actually become noticeably stressed and unhappy again. That would be really fun with orcs, especially since I remember they tended to be touchy in 34.xx.

Quote
(b) fixes you all made to Orc Fort in past years that i should incorporate?

I think everything I want to say about Orc Fort in past years hasn't been incorporated yet or would be different anyway with the siege changes, haha. In 34.xx, because of how many butcherable invaders you got, the meat-to-log "trade" in the elf prisoner cell was grossly overpowered and gave too many logs: I never ran out of meat, so I never ran out of logs. Even in most challenge runs, the hardest part was getting to the point where I could snag an elf prisoner, but once I got one, every fuel-dependent industry made the game a cinch.

Granted, even if the old raiding system was back, it would probably be a moot point now because sieges don't happen multiple times a year now.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 26, 2018, 12:19:50 pm
Interesting, id been meaning to get a look in on this Orc fortress content.

I can see where the appeal lies with the detail it provides, but i would say as a criticism its not very vanilla core gameplay compatable friendly without the task of unpicking the bits that you like

Quote
- Wildlife is good even if squigs are a little bit hard to place when we have crundles, probably needs to mention orcs less but the general theme holds up well, this can be handled now with [ANIMAL] entity tags for Orc exclusivity, with added bonus of letting creatures be importable to Orc settlements (set to pet_exotic and [ANIMAL_ALWAYS_PRESENT]), like how you can import beak dogs exclusively to goblins if you do the same (ah i see you've already done that)

- Orcs themselves are flavourful but way too many castes compared to what might be normal for vanilla, i could easily whittle it down to 2 or three with slight deviations but maintaining a general theme of a warrior race with more bulk than brain for a appropriate theme if nessecary or something different.

- There are a lot of babysnatching 'ally' (used very loosely because diplomacy doesn't exist yet for those kind of arrangments, more that they dont immediately hate each other for no reason until they find a reason) compatible races for world generation which would squeeze out the variety of or make it very one sided in vanilla because dwarves or playable races would always be staple else worldgen rolls over.

- Never played the masterwork mod so my expertise of some of the added building chains & industries needs explaining within the context of vanilla, so far i can just about grasp the slag metal to boulder conversion and the fighting pits etc, could you please apply a tutorial in the vanilla release mod thread OP? Or least a readme with a lowdown on seperating the content which is and isn't explicitly masterwork supported

If i can provide any recommended improvements to the code to make it more friendly ill link them in a
Code: [Select]
box here but this is really great stuff as it is.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 26, 2018, 08:49:29 pm
Sure, thanks for the feedback.  I'll keep an eye on your suggestion box.  Definitely appreciate fresh perspective from non-Masterwork players.

It is possible i'll do some half decent documentation or at least FAQs at some point, once I have a better feeling for what features are going to be in or out in the end.  My days of free time for writing detailed manuals or narrative gameplay tutorials are probably behind me though :) 
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 27, 2018, 02:11:56 am
0.2.
* Removed many unused reactions to clear errorlog
* Removed some remaining reactions erroneously still using unneeded non-vanilla materials
* Orcs can no longer create Ashglass and Ebonglass -- must trade (or loot from) ashlanders
* Flavor/culture changes to ashlanders

http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13773
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 27, 2018, 04:29:06 am
Nice to hear, i've been doing some abstracting and i think i have a decent build running with my own goblin modifications & orcfort features running to a standard that doesn't alienate vanilla too much.

So hopefully with the current build of ethics and values I have running, they should either be buddies for being on the same babysnatcher team or each other's favorite enemies at least due to some parallel and opposite views of things , plans being to jump into control of one or the other try them out then run combat scenarios back and forth with raids, if a productive relationship with goblins can be achieved in play (trading, spending more than a season not killing each other, picking up the other race's mercenaries), then it may end up being a constructive step to adopting this for the vanilla gameplay implementation to split up the features between the two races (Orcs trade rubies, goblins trade ash glass etc)

- I really like the plant options its nice to have a little something extra.

Enclosed is what i have so far of entity code, with no particular orcfort reactions included but notable additions, it doesn't really tell you a lot without supporting context but it hopefully supports what im saying in the above paragraph.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Edit - Fixed the mistakes *eventually though many more edits*
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Immortal-D on May 31, 2018, 05:28:31 pm
I always enjoyed the critters that Orcs have available :)  That said, I'm holding out for the stress rebalance next update, and hopefully MW can be updated to that.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on June 01, 2018, 02:25:21 pm
Updated "0.3".  Just a couple minor bugfixes to entities and decluttering by removing more unused reactions.

http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13773
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: burrito25man on June 02, 2018, 12:23:43 am
Amazing! Thanks Smake!
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on June 02, 2018, 10:39:42 am
Quote from: burrito25man
fix-sentient-butcher

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: zmw907 on June 05, 2018, 03:01:24 am
Thank you so much for doing this, I was going through withdrawals playing dwarf vanilla.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Kbarbarossa on June 08, 2018, 03:14:37 pm
I loved playing as Orcs in the past. They were just such a fun combination of influences which made them really quirky. You had Katana wielding Warlords alongside claws and clubs, and all the other crazy stuff. Lots of fun. I'm glad you're updating it for vanilla. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: burrito25man on June 08, 2018, 09:28:36 pm
Quote from: smakemupagus on June 02, 2018, 10:39:42 am
Quote from: burrito25man
fix-sentient-butcher

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!

Best. Reference. Ever.  :P :P :P
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on June 08, 2018, 11:07:14 pm
Thanks for the notes, all.  Let me know if there's anything from the old version you miss particularly much -- maybe some old (or new) things can find their way back in. 

When Conquered sites comes around, somebody should set up some kind of Orcs vs. Dwarves alternating turns succession game  8)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: SOLDIER First on June 08, 2018, 11:16:25 pm
PTW
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 09, 2018, 06:36:23 am
The new devlog came out and its got some tasty tidbits.

Especially in regards to the land-owner, would it be possible to df_hack (optionally of course) some title enabled transformations for when the warboss gains enough 'hill dwarf' settlement types under their control to transform to a more powerful caste? Eventually landing upon a Grimgor Ironhide level of aggression, size and strength and some boosts for subordinates in military roles enabled by the larger boss's presence to also progress?.

(something similar might phase out Uruks to a capacity because the LOTR overlap is good material but orcs are a wide spectrum in pop culture, snaga's are still pretty important though as the agile ones so maybe some racially assigned snaga squads with these title upgrades attributed)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on June 09, 2018, 10:55:19 pm
Yeah, new devlog sounds great!  It is quite possible using vanilla mechanics to restrict captured-site overlords and high ranking nobles to particular race and caste.  Which we already do somewhat to keep non-orc citizens out of key positions, but i might take the opportunity to double check the specifics, before site overlords become more important.

Of course one could make an orc creature that was more warhammer-ork-like in physiology (thicker skull, tougher tissues, grow very large if they live long enough, even things like redundant organs and reduced vascularization are probably doable).  I don't think that's necessarily the way I would want to go here, but it's interesting to think about, and i wouldn't be surprised if someone else has already modded it at some point.  But as for specifically the thing you're proposing with DFHack transformations triggered by title change and especially the boosts for subordinates... I have no idea, sorry! 
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 01, 2018, 02:24:42 am
Anyone catch any bugs, or have suggestions? 

I'll probably play a couple more forts after there's a LNP for 44.11, then at some point make a thread up on the main DF Modding forum.

Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on July 09, 2018, 06:00:47 am
Anything you need, just let me know. :-)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Wyzack on July 12, 2018, 02:23:41 pm
Posting to express interest and wonder where you are on the timeline of current DF updates? Orc fort was always one of my favorites
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Prismaa on July 13, 2018, 04:07:13 am
I love Orc's and I miss playing with them! So I hope to see them in future too.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 14, 2018, 09:25:24 am
Hi Meph!  Thanks for the offer, I don't think anything is needed right now.  good to see you around :)

Wyzack, I've been playing the development version posted here only in 44.10.  I don't know of any reason it wouldn't work just as well in later versions of 44.xx, but I probably won't test it myself until there's a LNP for 44.12. 

In terms of development strategy, I can't really decide whether I want to make Vanilla Orc Fortress bigger again (chemistry, for example) or perhaps to make it even more streamlined like a lot of vanilla mods, in which case I might just focus on the creature, entity, culture and signature weapons.  In the meantime the version up still has most of the old orcish industrial, blood bowl, and shanty town buildings, so it's a bit caught in the middle. 

Still with Vanilla now enabling you to pick fights with your neighbors I think it's in a good place, I've been having a lot of fun.

Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Herodian on July 14, 2018, 01:56:14 pm
Always been a big fan of Orc Fortress, especially the Ologs, so thanks for keeping it going! To ask a bit of an amateur question, how do I go about installing Orc fortress in the current format?
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 14, 2018, 02:57:05 pm
Quote from: Herodian on July 14, 2018, 01:56:14 pm
Always been a big fan of Orc Fortress, especially the Ologs, so thanks for keeping it going! To ask a bit of an amateur question, how do I go about installing Orc fortress in the current format?

Should be pretty much one click -- You just drag and drop the Orc Fortress raw/ folder into the appropriate level of the Dwarf Fortress file tree, so that it (and it's subfolders) merge into the existing raw/ directory (and its subfolders).

Heads up that right now, the evil elves and humans, who are largely intended as enemies for dwarfs and as a source of trade (materials, animals, bows, guns, polearms) for orcs, are also set playable.   I can't really confirm that they are fun, interesting, or non-broken to play in fort mode -- I'll probably comment them out before "release".  You can tell what civ/race you're embarking as from the embark screen in the usual way.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on July 14, 2018, 03:11:37 pm
Smake, just so you know: If this works well with vanilla DF, it will also work with the tileset release I make.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 14, 2018, 03:58:19 pm
Quote from: Meph on July 14, 2018, 03:11:37 pm
Smake, just so you know: If this works well with vanilla DF, it will also work with the tileset release I make.

Aha.  Well then maybe i will play with 44.12 sooner rather than later :D
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on July 14, 2018, 04:05:18 pm
Not sure if you followed the developement, but if you build stuff with Obsidian, you get this (lower room):
 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think that suits orcs, considering that the walls are the orc walls from Warcraft. :D

(So, yeah, in case you didnt know: Individual materials can have their own sprites now)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 14, 2018, 04:25:41 pm
I hadn't been following closely, but yeah i did notice those orcish walls on one of your posts :)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 16, 2018, 05:18:52 pm
Ooh, i didn't realize the Meph Tileset pack has Fortress Defense.  Embarking in a target rich environment for some conquest :)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Prismaa on July 17, 2018, 12:35:03 am
How well this works with Meph's launcher? and do the tileset work fine with it?
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on July 17, 2018, 02:45:54 am
It should work just the same as with vanilla df, but i dont know how the added items and Workshops look. I know that the orcs themselves look fine, i made a 32x Set for them.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: baldamundo on July 17, 2018, 01:54:31 pm
Cheers for picking this back up! Orc Fortress was always my fave part of Masterwork (and DF generally tbh). Look forward to trying it out with the new version.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Prismaa on July 26, 2018, 05:04:14 am
I would love to play this in 44.12 but current version seems to just crash in it.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 27, 2018, 12:21:37 am
Any details?  I've been able to embark in both 44.12 Meph Graphics Pack and Peridexis starter 44.12-r02
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Prismaa on July 27, 2018, 06:43:54 am
Might be just the peridexis starter pack, it crashed "vanilla" few times too when embarking for me, and I managed to embark as orcs after few tries, I guess dfhack or something is little unstable for 44.12?
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: baldamundo on July 30, 2018, 02:57:26 pm
Is noble promotion working correctly? Could be a vanilla bug, but am several years in and no sign of promotion to the first rank of nobility. In what may be a related bug, I've accidentally managed to appoint a Huscarl before I should be able to - possibly facilitated by Dwarf Therapist.

What ammo do atlatls use btw? In MDF they used javelins iirc, but all I have are throwing axes, blowdarts, bolts and arrows - but I don't think I can make anything that uses bolts or arrows?

Am having a blast though! (altho I need to work out if I can fix this lag I'm suddenly getting...)

Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 30, 2018, 08:51:48 pm
Yes, atlatls use arrows now, with the throw skill, mostly because javelins are not an available ammo type in vanilla.  Also, take this for whatever it is worth, but I talked to a co-worker who apparently has a lot of experience with atlatls in real life (strangely enough) and he co-signs this decision. 

Hmm -- I haven't played a fort long enough to get nobles recently.  Thanks for the feedback, I'll double check if there's any obvious typo. 

Anyone know if there were Entity changes to how nobility are defined in 44.11+ that i might have missed? ... I guess it's related to off-site holdings now.  Take a look at discussion here:  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171295.msg7807510#msg7807510
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on July 31, 2018, 03:15:56 am
If the issue persists, have a look at this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164123.msg7812111;topicseen#msg7812111
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: baldamundo on July 31, 2018, 05:16:00 pm
Quote from: smakemupagus on July 30, 2018, 08:51:48 pm
Yes, atlatls use arrows now, with the throw skill, mostly because javelins are not an available ammo type in vanilla.  Also, take this for whatever it is worth, but I talked to a co-worker who apparently has a lot of experience with atlatls in real life (strangely enough) and he co-signs this decision. 

Hmm -- I haven't played a fort long enough to get nobles recently.  Thanks for the feedback, I'll double check if there's any obvious typo. 

Anyone know if there were Entity changes to how nobility are defined in 44.11+ that i might have missed? ... I guess it's related to off-site holdings now.  Take a look at discussion here:  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171295.msg7807510#msg7807510

Cheers. What are the relative merits of atlatls versus tomahawks? I'm guessing atlatls are longer ranged and more powerful (better at piercing armour?) in exchange for being shit in melee?

Also it seems like the boneforge blood extraction doesn't seem to work currently. Always claims there's no legitimate meat available.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on July 31, 2018, 07:33:55 pm
OK... thanks for report, meat is definitely different in Masterwork than in vanilla, and at a glance i think that it will indeed not work (because of REACTION_CLASS:FRESH_BLOOD_MAT)

Thrown Tomahawks work pretty well against un- or poorly armored targets, you might even get severed limbs on occassion from the large contact area, and they are OK if not great in a melee. 

Yes, atlatls are indeed shit in melee, but with smaller contact area, the arrows should do a little better punching through armor. 

Foreign ranged weapons (bows, crossbows, or guns) should be strictly better in terms of penetration power, of course they use a different skill though.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on August 01, 2018, 01:17:16 am
REACTION_CLASS:FRESH_BLOOD_MAT I introduced early in MDF for the extraction of blood from parts, for early versions of magic/evil stuff.

You can just call for MEAT:NONE instead.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: baldamundo on August 01, 2018, 01:12:28 pm
Quote from: Meph on July 31, 2018, 03:15:56 am
If the issue persists, have a look at this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164123.msg7812111;topicseen#msg7812111

Cheers. Do you know how you'd make it work for Orc specific positions? I'm not code-savvy enough to work it out.

Tried adding the Orc nobles from entity_orcfort_orc into the list after 'local POSITIONS = ' and it just says e.g. "Noble position 'THAIN' is not valid" if I try to run it. Took a guess that 'for i=0, 9' counted the number of options, so increased it to match the new ones and now it just says "Could not find position ID". Which incidentally is the same thing that happens when you try to promote an orc to a Dwarf position that Orcs don't have (like Baron. Positions they both share like diplomat seem to work fine though.

EDIT: I guess it's this part that's throwing the error, but no idea how to fix it:

Code: [Select]
local histFig = dfhack.units.getNemesis(unit).figure
local ownEntity = df.historical_entity.find(df.global.ui.civ_id)

local posID = GetPositionID(ownEntity, string.upper(args[1]))
if not posID then
qerror("Could not find position ID.")
end'
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on August 01, 2018, 01:23:32 pm
You have to ask comnom about that, he wrote the script.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: FantasticDorf on August 01, 2018, 01:43:36 pm
Noble promotion changed recently, without a certain level of holdings (relevant to controlled provinces) you can't upgrade your nobility tree past 'baron' at land holder one (default economic & hillock/conquered site) without more sites, other factors detail how quickly settlers scramble out to biome supported terrain once this title is achieved and offsite population is counted.

It still needs some more documentation but may be a shorthand explanation why noble elevation isn't working in your orcy worlds for vanilla to the latest spec's.

Besides from re-writing the scripting to be more relevant where possible, masterwork scripting paid for local settler dispatches from the merchant vendors by trading gold bars/settler supplies in order to get more titles, civ pop & spread & messengerable population? Sounds like a good application for the future if it can be determined how the new version's code internally works
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on August 11, 2018, 11:07:19 am
I will see if I can run a fort long enough with this version to conquer/found some sites and test Nobility. 

------

Just some minor updates for 0.4

Bugfix:
* Remove not-vanilla compatable reference to FRESH_BLOOD_MAT reaction class - should fix blood extraction

Balance:
* Increase max velocity of atlatl arrows (should be better than tomahawks for armor penetration by a wider margin, not quite as good as bows)

Cleanup:
* Ashland elves and Human bandit civs non-playable by default
* "Archive" folder removed from distribution

Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: GarlicBread on August 12, 2018, 11:05:10 pm
Hey just checking in and saying that orcs are still awesome!
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on August 12, 2018, 11:40:53 pm
Awesome thanks for the note :D
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Evillee on August 17, 2018, 06:43:39 pm
Is this the place to discuss the mod?
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on August 17, 2018, 10:54:28 pm
Sure, It's definitely a fine place to discuss the new version being tested out for vanilla.  If you're talking about the original (Masterwork) version it might be confusing to discuss here.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Blackworth on August 28, 2018, 06:02:15 am
I will never ever say no to da boyz
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: y0ru on October 14, 2018, 09:02:52 am
Hi, and thank you for porting Orcs Fortress to the current version of vanillaDF. I've been looking forward to raid and pillage the lands of Armok once again.

During my first two forts attempting to get back into OF (spoiler: they didn't last longer than a year) I experienced pretty severe downward spirals in terms of happiness - as noted in your test fort thread. I found it rather hilarious seeing orcs of all things being horrified at the sight of death. Damn orcs, getting all civilized and soft now.  :D  Strangely enough this wasn't an issue in later forts.

However, I am running into an issue with the BONEFORGE [REACTION:MAKE_IRONBONE_ORC]. Whenever I try to transmute the stuff I cannot queue the reaction due to lack of blood containing food storage. ASH, BLOOD, BONE and FUEL are all being checked just fine, but not the BLOODBARRELS despite there being dozen of the things inside the workshop from [REACTION:EXTRACT_BLOOD_ORC].
Since I couldn't figure out what wasn't working I had to go ahead and modify (delete) the whole part about blood from the reaction. Any way I can fix this while still using blood as a reagent?
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on October 23, 2018, 12:35:27 am
Hmm.  Interesting, good catch.  Yeah, the blood reagent is handled using REACTION_CLASS:BLOOD, which won't work in vanilla -- that class isn't defined.  (for what it's worth, it appears to also be broken in recent versions of Masterwork, where the class is now called "IS_BLOOD")

So, the quick fix for a new world would probably be to add [REACTION_CLASS:BLOOD] under [MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BLOOD_TEMPLATE] within material_template_default.txt

I don't love that fix permanently, because my goal for a "vanilla compatable" mod would be not to change/overwrite any vanilla files. 
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: fasquardon on November 18, 2018, 02:00:03 pm
I am super glad that you released an up-to-date Orc fortress.  It is by far my favourite way to play Dwarf Fortress.  (Before now I was reduced to trying to mod in the Orcs myself, and for some reason, I can never get the graphics tilesets to work for things I mod.)

Will Dreamwalkers ever get their non-DFhack magic back?  I remember in the very first versions of Orc Fortress I played, back in the days when Masterwork used lots of boiling-stone interactions, Dreamwalkers could do fun (and really kinda OP) spells.  I've never figured out how you did those.  I kinda miss the entertainment value of watching an Orc shaman wandering around the battlefield making enemies bleed to death through their skins.

My current DF project is modding orcs to be a more degenerate and barbaric version of the Orc Fort orcs.  My working title for it is "Snaga Fortress".  Hopefully modding sizes the way I am won't mess with their ability to dress once I get a test game running.

fasquardon
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Wyzack on November 19, 2018, 02:16:40 pm
I remember having to burrow my dreamwalkers away because they kept shooting ice blasts and people and freezing friendlies to death
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on January 16, 2019, 11:30:13 am
Quote from: fasquardon on November 18, 2018, 02:00:03 pm
Will Dreamwalkers ever get their non-DFhack magic back?  I remember in the very first versions of Orc Fortress I played, back in the days when Masterwork used lots of boiling-stone interactions, Dreamwalkers could do fun (and really kinda OP) spells.  I've never figured out how you did those.  I kinda miss the entertainment value of watching an Orc shaman wandering around the battlefield making enemies bleed to death through their skins.

My current DF project is modding orcs to be a more degenerate and barbaric version of the Orc Fort orcs.  My working title for it is "Snaga Fortress".  Hopefully modding sizes the way I am won't mess with their ability to dress once I get a test game running.

fasquardon

I've been thinking about this on and off since your comment.  I thought the Old Magic was indeed pretty great, but with some major exceptions like the "boiling stone reactions" having a low success rate, so training magic users was pretty frustrating even for players who know the ins and outs of how modding works.  I guess it would be almost impossible to decipher for someone without that background.

I had fun with the old spells though.  Much respect for the modders who really pioneered understanding the possibilities of magic system, but a lot of the spells that were around at first were kinda the same, throwing different kinds of boulders or fire, so i tried to find some things that were a bit different but still effective.  Pain magic was probably the best balanced, it would stun or disarm (sometimes) but not kill.  Blood and decay magic was a little too reliable and safe but it would kill slowly, so i reasoned it served the purpose of a siege weapon and not really turn the tables in a real melee fight.  Frost magic was awesome and unpredictable, IMO worth loosing a few fingers to frostbite now and then :)   If I, say, sometimes accidentally fight in the mist under a waterfall or in the tide spray and deep freeze the whole battlefield friend and foe alike, eh, losing is fun.  When i lose my only miner and pick in a frozen aquifer because the shaman tried to flash freeze a kea, then yes i too am kind of mad.   My in house beta tester never lost an uruk to frostbite, but then she is also the sort to add a second layer of clothes with mittens and stuff to the uniforms, so what can i say.

In principle I'm up for adding anything back in here but would like to keep it accessible (and more or less balanced to vanilla, for whatever that's worth). 

To be honest the major issue now is still orcs suffering morale spiral from totally routine situations like corpses piling up knee deep everywhere, so the current business is rather tedious fiddling and testing with personality traits and the like, and/or waiting to see how Tarn tweaks the Memory system. 
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Meph on January 16, 2019, 01:53:54 pm
Roses scripts make adding magic a lot easier: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152762.0

He even has one that turns a unit into a projectile. Perfect for flinging snots and goblins at people... :D
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: fasquardon on March 06, 2019, 08:04:21 pm
Quote from: smakemupagus on January 16, 2019, 11:30:13 am
I've been thinking about this on and off since your comment.  I thought the Old Magic was indeed pretty great, but with some major exceptions like the "boiling stone reactions" having a low success rate, so training magic users was pretty frustrating even for players who know the ins and outs of how modding works.  I guess it would be almost impossible to decipher for someone without that background.

I had fun with the old spells though.  Much respect for the modders who really pioneered understanding the possibilities of magic system, but a lot of the spells that were around at first were kinda the same, throwing different kinds of boulders or fire, so i tried to find some things that were a bit different but still effective.  Pain magic was probably the best balanced, it would stun or disarm (sometimes) but not kill.  Blood and decay magic was a little too reliable and safe but it would kill slowly, so i reasoned it served the purpose of a siege weapon and not really turn the tables in a real melee fight.  Frost magic was awesome and unpredictable, IMO worth loosing a few fingers to frostbite now and then :)   If I, say, sometimes accidentally fight in the mist under a waterfall or in the tide spray and deep freeze the whole battlefield friend and foe alike, eh, losing is fun.  When i lose my only miner and pick in a frozen aquifer because the shaman tried to flash freeze a kea, then yes i too am kind of mad.   My in house beta tester never lost an uruk to frostbite, but then she is also the sort to add a second layer of clothes with mittens and stuff to the uniforms, so what can i say.

In principle I'm up for adding anything back in here but would like to keep it accessible (and more or less balanced to vanilla, for whatever that's worth). 

To be honest the major issue now is still orcs suffering morale spiral from totally routine situations like corpses piling up knee deep everywhere, so the current business is rather tedious fiddling and testing with personality traits and the like, and/or waiting to see how Tarn tweaks the Memory system.

I thought boiling stone reactions worked really well for magic.  It made intuitive sense to me that magic should have an unpredictable element to it that resulted in things going awry if there was a mistake during casting.

With regards to orc cleaning, I always mod in the crematory building for the orcs, since even before 44.xx came out, orc cleaning was too weak for my tastes.  Maybe adding that would be sufficient to prevent any death spirals?  (I've never tested orc psychology the way you have, since I build fortresses like a paranoid.)

Quote from: Meph on January 16, 2019, 01:53:54 pm
Roses scripts make adding magic a lot easier: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152762.0

He even has one that turns a unit into a projectile. Perfect for flinging snots and goblins at people... :D

That's for DFHack right?

I'm probably in a minority, but I really don't like being dependent on DFHack (I don't choose an embark without it, but during actual play, I like to leave it off).

fasquardon
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on April 02, 2019, 12:53:16 am
Yes i agree, crematory is probably the most important thing missing from this package right now.  That is a good call.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: JAK on April 03, 2019, 10:31:28 pm
I just want to say that while I do not play them, I LOVE playing against them. Orcs are painfully missing from vanilla and their menace has always been a big draw for me. I hope support for them continues.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on April 05, 2019, 10:44:59 am
thanks for the note JAK!  I almost exclusively play orcs so impressions/feedback from the other side are always good to know :)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Kars on April 28, 2019, 05:29:37 am
Do you think the orcs are a little sensitive, emotionally? I've played as humans and as dwarves and it seems as though the orcs are the most sensitive of all the races. They're very susceptible to stress from seeing strangers die, which seems a little odd for orcs
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on April 29, 2019, 04:44:22 pm
Dwarfs get a very small reduction to stress vulnerability I think (their stress vulnerability median is 45 rather than the nominal 50).  I should probably tweak substantially a number of orcs' PERSONALITY traits, but right now they only have a very small boost to ASSERTIVENESS and EXCITEMENT_SEEKING.

Orcs have slightly lower than normal empathy, which one might think make them slightly more resilient on average to strangers' deaths, although any effect this has is probably more subtle than the Personality traits would be.

Neither of these should be particularly large effects. 

I doubt the orcs' cultural values will have much effect but if anyone is interested they are:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on April 29, 2019, 04:55:42 pm
My last on-forums test fort Talatapushak (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171737.0) ended up being a long form study in orcs long descent into madness.  In off-line control forts where there were not severed limbs everywhere, the orcs were fine, more or less like a tidy dwarf fort would be.  I agree that it needs tweaking.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Blackworth on May 01, 2019, 04:33:06 pm
Needs more fighting :P however i love the mod and would like to see it continue development as well as the masterwork compilation.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Blackworth on May 11, 2019, 11:28:24 am
why do orcs get depressed so much?
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: FantasticDorf on May 13, 2019, 03:17:35 pm
Quote from: Blackworth on May 11, 2019, 11:28:24 am
why do orcs get depressed so much?

I've had a little time to sit down play a Orc fortress on Masterwork to a 100 citizens, three traumatic siege cleanup's later and ill back myself up that all races (especially after playing with sadistic goblins prior in modded vanilla) initially have a poor reaction but orcs get more upset from inactivity. A "no schedule" (from military scheduling screen) military routine for orcs like a kind of workman's militia to not lose job efficiency and still allow them to do vital jobs + security are typically happy orcs.

@smakemupagus It would seem that you might need to disentangle orcs from space orks if your intention is to bring them into vanilla in a way that doesn't break the setting too bad, since they get smattered into the masterwork mod with the overlapping warhammer total conversion mod also in the pack. On one hand, orcs have some pretty classic flintlocks and muskets but not all of the warhammer conversion mod bits fit (like modern flechette shotguns). Big ships, but then also mass production factories.

There's a sort of WC2:Rising Tides kind of nautical theme appearing the more i think about the freelancers and all the silly meph TBWT eyepatch orks walking around with vaguely disguised 'scimitars' instead of cutlasses. I could definitely dig a more nordic raider theme though as a preference regarding their primary biome.

The Caravansai was fun also, jiggling resources around to get things that i wanted or to a comfortable spot where i could sell booze, to trade for bonemould coins at a profit over break even.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 14, 2019, 01:49:15 am
Quote
@smakemupagus It would seem that you might need to disentangle orcs from space orks if your intention is to bring them into vanilla in a way that doesn't break the setting too bad

Thanks for the post.  Yes, of course.  Conversely i think it would have been immersion breaking for the orcs in the Masterwork universe to be looting power servos and what not from gnomish scientists and sentient hunter-killer androids and *not* be making weapons out of them.

The full list of added weapons currently in Orc Fort for vanilla are:

tomahawks
flachette gun
atlatl

polehammer
claws
macuahuitl
toothed spear

"Flachette gun" in this context is simply a pre-industrial weapon that happens to fire darts rather than bullets or arrows, not a modern antipersonnel weapon or a WH reference.  (... the "dakkadakka gun" in Orc Fortress for Masterwork of course was a WH reference, but that is a different beast entirely)
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Metaltooth on May 15, 2019, 09:55:49 am
How Orky will your Orks be? I need em to be good n Orky to scratch my Waaagh itch
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: smakemupagus on May 15, 2019, 10:46:19 pm
About 3/10 orky?  Warhammer's not really the biggest influence in the mod.

Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: Metaltooth on May 16, 2019, 09:53:23 am
Quote from: smakemupagus on May 15, 2019, 10:46:19 pm
About 3/10 orky?  Warhammer's not really the biggest influence in the mod.
Are they closer to Warcraft orks?
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: SIGVARDR on September 23, 2019, 04:17:59 am
I'd definitely like to see continued support for your orcs and a standalone version of them compatible with the newest DF version.

They are different than your typical fantasy orcs. Almost a native american sort of vibe for their traditional workshops and magic system, But also their own thing. They are the default race I choose to play anytime I boot up masterwork DF and I've become quite fond of their playstyle, and when playing as other civs, I think they're a more interesting antagonist than the goblin race.

Thanks for your work creating them as they are.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: FantasticDorf on March 22, 2024, 08:58:05 am
Hi, not to make a unnessecary bump if you're not working on this anymore, but just as a cursory note downloading this again to see if i could jerryrig the classic version for 50.12 for my own use, a couple of the reactions are redundant for leaving behind soap crates of different qualities that would have been used on the not-included raiders drydock.

Also, given that in 50.xx all inorganic metal armors can be melted down by normal smelters (steel etc), mythril has a exploitable loop of dusting on the damasc forge, applying it to armor or large weapons, then returning 2 bars for being melted down via a smelter, to start again on 1 bar = 1 bag. Its nice to revisit this again, though some of the ashland elf-stuff and mythril extra-material additions could be added on after as a optional module, to just keep this as a clean orc-race only pack.
Title: Re: Interest in Orc Fortress for vanilla 44.xx?
Post by: baldamundo on March 31, 2024, 07:31:25 am
Would love to see this updated sometime! It's honestly still the main thing I've been waiting on before shelling out for the Steam version of DF