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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Sugardust on October 09, 2020, 08:12:07 pm

Title: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Sugardust on October 09, 2020, 08:12:07 pm
Just as the title says, this is a problem I've been struggling with since I started playing. I always give up on my forts due to being just too overwhelmed by the sheer amount of dwarves that flood in what seems to be every month. Just this past fort I attempted I had ~80 dwarves within spring of the 2nd year, and I just can't keep track of everything at that scale. It causes me to lose focus and upon seeing just a mass of dwarves who all basically just sit in the meeting area with nothing to do all day, I give up. Plus having to micromanage making sure we have enough drinks and food at the same time confuses me a bit.

I'm not sure how to combat this. I honestly would really much not have to play with the default settings in LNP, as I don't use LNP. It's just very hard to keep track of what dwarves do what and how to make sure most people are doing jobs. Any advice for how to combat this would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 09, 2020, 08:32:34 pm
Your dwarves are doing nothing because you've given them nothing to do. If you've given them nothing to do you don't have to worry about what they'e doing, just expand your tavern, give them nice things to look at until you think of something to do.

Masses of dwarves means you most likely have dwarves with all the labours you need (game ensures the labours you need are enabled in migrants). So you can do anything you want in no time.

Automate food and booze production with your manager and you never have to worry about it again.

Biggest mistakes to make are to think that Dwarves enjoying themselves and not working is a bad thing (the opposite actually) and that you have to micromanage labours (no need with a fortress packed full of dwarves unless you actually want to start optimizing projects).

What's the problem again?
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Sugardust on October 09, 2020, 08:47:01 pm
I will look into a manager. I've never really touched it despite playing the game for a good while now.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: delphonso on October 09, 2020, 09:12:00 pm
A 6x6 plot of plump helmets year round produces a lot of food and booze to keep everyone alive. Shonai is right that you don't need to worry about them much. I tend to just start lumping them into military squads and get them trained up or just feel thankful they're dragging stones to the stockpiles. A dormitory does a lot to make sure they're not sleeping on the ground.

In the d_init file you can change your population cap, if you want to have the game stop sending dwarves at 80 or something so you can get comfortable with the number.

Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: PatrikLundell on October 10, 2020, 03:49:51 am
My method is to use the pop cap to restrict the influx of migrants to a level I can manage. This means I set the pop cap to the current population + 10 after every migration wave (save and restart) until I reach my limit for how large a population I can handle. Since I use the LNP I can change the cap using the launcher interface, but it's not that much harder to modify the file manually.

As I can't really handle that large a population, I also lower the siege and attack triggers.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: anewaname on October 10, 2020, 06:33:49 am
Yes, modifying the population_cap value will help the most. Without use dfhack or dwarf therapist, 25 or 30 dwarfs is enough to work the various industries that you will need to learn. You could leave it at that number until you learn how to replace clothing, make gates, and prepare a military.

I recall multiple forts that were crushed by invaders because I over-created wealth while learning to feed and cloth migrant hordes. Soon after that, I changed my tactics to "mechanisms and forges first!".
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: PetGreySquirrel on October 10, 2020, 02:27:24 pm
Using the launcher for LNP or editing pop cap in the init files can help. Start the fort with it set low - 20 or so - and as you settle and need more labourers or soldiers or want to do more stuff, add 10-15 at a time. Keep in mine 50 and 80 will tend to be significant for unlocking events that can happen in fort mode.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Garfunkel on October 17, 2020, 09:50:21 pm
I used to have the same problem Sugardust, and it was annoying to get 12 immigrants five minutes after I had successfully optimized labours and assigned bedrooms and workshops and so on. So I'll also recommend changing the pop cap - you could start with as low as 20 and then slowly shift it up as PatrikLundell explained. Current fort is at 75 and working well enough so probs going to 85 soon.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Schmaven on October 17, 2020, 11:03:33 pm
You can also play with more reckless abandon for safety; and let accidents, dwarven stupidity, and wildlife cull your population a bit if you don't want to change the population cap settings.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: MorsDux on October 23, 2020, 11:40:49 am
you can throw your more capable dwarves into squads and start training them. I see nothing wrong with a fort having mostly fighters.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Salmeuk on October 24, 2020, 03:41:04 am
My dwarf management system is simple, but lacks agility when it comes to reassignment.

Adjust this DFinit setting to NO:

[SET_LABOR_LISTS:NO]

Now, dwarves will arrive with zero labors enabled, as blank slates. Your job becomes straightforward: immediately, as dwarves immigrate onto the map, reassign them into the most needed job or class, and then rename them into whatever you assigned, say "Mason" or "Miner" or "Carpenter". This can be quite a lot of work when 40 dwarves immigrate at once, however, I see it as worth it considering the benefits of a well-organized workforce. Make sure to catch the dwarves while they are still traveling towards your gate, as they tend to string themselves out in a particularly manageable fashion, letting you appraise and rename each dwarf in quick succession.

I also recommend familiarizing yourself with DFhack and suite of labor management options it brings to the table. With ONLY Dfhack, there is a labor management menu accessible from the units list. This allows for quick reference and adjustment of enabled skills. With this menu you can turn off all hauling labors in only a few key presses from pause.

Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Thisfox on October 26, 2020, 02:33:59 pm
I often give migrants a few new labours when they enter the map, but don't really see the need to rename them. And all the bloody fishermen make me a totally renewable military, as there's always more of them (You migrated to a volcano in the middle of the DESERT, chaps, why the hell did you think I'd keep you on as a fisherman? Do you SEE any water?).

Could be wrong, but if a dorf arrives with a well learned skill (and even with "[SET_LABOR_LISTS:NO]" I think this is still the case, it's just turned off when they enter) they will get depressed with sad thoughts about missing the use of said skill. Urist McBrewer, for instance, arrives on the map as a Brewer, you rename him Carpenter, and turn off his brewing entirely, and he sometimes thinks ".....I miss brewing" even while pumping out *wheelbarrows* and ☼shields☼ and ☼Giant Wooden Corkscrews☼. I tend to leave their labours as they were, and just add one or two when needed, especially if they arrive with the "Gelder" skill or something. I just don't geld that many animals... And they don't allow me to geld roosters to make capons.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Starver on October 26, 2020, 05:19:55 pm
For a long time now, I've found Dwarf Therapist the way I like to manage things (and, before that, a spreadsheet and manual transfer of info from the game and intent to it).

I use two key markers to identify yet-to-be-resolved immigrants from those already present[1]. Firstly, I set Corpse Hauling off from every dwarf I 'process'[2]. Its on-turnedness is a quick filter/sorter key for who's new. Secondly, I nickname[3] with the current "Is suited for" mnemonics[4].

And that's mainly just for the in-game micromanaging. The micromanaging via Therapist doesn't really need this. Sort by (say) Mechanics skill to find the best one, two or three lever-makers (who haven't any other jobs they should not be taken away from) or repeatedly whittle out 'experts' from the corps that does the routine haulage or that rush-job of bedroom walls smoothing. When I need to clean out a freshly-dug cistern(-to-be) of the rock spoil and designate it to he dumped, sorting by current work of the moment or other criteria can set the most appropriate half of the fort to that task (and untick Rock Crafting/etc that can wait) then immexiately prep (but not yet commit) the scene to flash-undo that change again as soon as it looks like the job is almost fully complete.


I'm afraid I am the kind of player who thinks the Idle-count should be close to zero (though I know what problems that gives) but then I'm often in a rush to get certain things done. If only so the thing that follows on and relies on tue prior objectives. I gladly absorb immigrants[5] because there's always something else to be done ASAP, and if you give me a workforce I will try to employ it.


[1] Yes, there's a wave-of-arrival thing in DT, but I've not really used it, given I cover this issue and others this other way.

[2] If I ever need to turn it on, I do so outwith a time with 'newbie immigrants' to process, and I just do my best not to have to haul corpses.

[3] And prefer the Firstname "Nickname" LastName display format, in-game. Not that this has much bearing on anything.

[4] Sometimes it's quite straightforward ("Dig" for miner-specialist, who tends to have no other task, "MasBrwArc" for a primary Mason with Brewing and Architecture usefulness) sometimes I go a bit surreal (Urist "Chopper" McWoodcutter, Urist "Giles" McPlanter). By convention I use an ALLCAPS prefix for military affiliations/subtypes ("BOWChisel" for woodcarver with part-time/potential ranged combat. "HAMBowyer" might be a Hammer-fighter who has (cross)bow-making skills of use. Though I tend to not have vitally-important military that have a vitally-important non-military job, and vice-versa. Weekend-warriors and those who have a hobby during their leave, mainly.

[5] Those I find useless (to my purposes) I'll gladly use as necessary Haulers. Any fish-related skills are nixed (no fishing, beyond a small amount of shell-sourcing I may try, as it is a very unsafe way of getting food; and so the fish-processors also have nothing to do) and anyone arriving as a Hunter/Ranger is given the military career as a focus (hunting is the other most 'problematic' food-task, might as well risk them under my own terms.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Thisfox on October 26, 2020, 05:51:31 pm
Quote from: Starver on October 26, 2020, 05:19:55 pm
[5] ......anyone arriving as a Hunter/Ranger is given the military career as a focus (hunting is the other most 'problematic' food-task, might as well risk them under my own terms.)

Oh good! Has the Ranger/Miner/Military won't-take-a-weapon bug been fixed while I wasn't paying attention?
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Starver on October 26, 2020, 06:18:35 pm
Quote from: Thisfox on October 26, 2020, 05:51:31 pm
Quote from: Starver on October 26, 2020, 05:19:55 pm
[5] ......anyone arriving as a Hunter/Ranger is given the military career as a focus (hunting is the other most 'problematic' food-task, might as well risk them under my own terms.)

Oh good! Has the Ranger/Miner/Military won't-take-a-weapon bug been fixed while I wasn't paying attention?

Ah, not that I know of. I de-Hunter the hunter[1], at which point[2] they usually drop their crossbow and quiver[3]. Then if they, as they usually do, look like they can be a military asset then they get enrolled in a boot-camp squad to touch up their more basic and generic martial skills, before being transfered (or, as a relevent squad already, tweaked in-situ) and equipped with a bow and quiver and arrows...

Or something liks that. I've so rarely had to go beyond lip-service on the military (I'm too good at turtling, or too bad at letting a massacre spoil a fortress construction experiment) that I'm never quite sure if I've not missed latent equipment mismatch issues through no proper trial and success of my methods. But it seems to work, even if the supposed Rangers never see a target more exciting than one of my trademarked 'bolt-saving archery-butts' dug somewhere in-between caverns 2 and 3 where I could fit a long double-level room in amongst whatever my current Grand Design Plan allows. ;)


[1] Because I find Urist McHunter and Urist McAngler tend to wander beyond my defences and - the latter at least - respond too slowly/not at all to being told not to do that and get back home quickly (if they aren't already the canary in the ambush-coalmine). So, I tend to consider them my "cheesemakers", skill-wise. Unlike the cheesemakers. Well, alart from the hunter-inclined coming pre-loaded with some militarisable skills, as mentioned.

[2] Or possibly at the point of entry onto the map, because DT works with the whole queue of arrivals even before they are entirely on the map.

[3] I usually set to Dump things that get scattered this way (with "Outside refuse" being allowed) and have enough somebodies (may even be earlier arrivals in the same wave!) recover them into my internal dump-pile, for Reclaiming and eventual re-claiming. If they do, I rarely check they get the exact same kit back.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Schmaven on October 26, 2020, 09:04:05 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on October 09, 2020, 08:32:34 pm
Your dwarves are doing nothing because you've given them nothing to do. If you've given them nothing to do you don't have to worry about what they'e doing, just expand your tavern, give them nice things to look at until you think of something to do.
Spoiler: Remaining Quote (click to show/hide)

A good sized plump helmet plot, a dormitory, a dining hall, and some dedicated brewers / farmers is all you need for a heck of a lot of dwarves to get by just fine.  Seems like no matter what, some tend toward insanity, so I don't really bother with amenities at first.  Running out of booze and food will cause greater unhappiness anyway.  If you have these basics, then you can pursue other aspects of the fort at your leisure. 

I sometimes will put everyone in the fort on food & booze production for a couple years to build up a massive stockpile and then not have to worry about it at all for several more years afterward.  Also, with a massive stockpile of food and drinks on hand, it doesn't matter how many migrants arrive, and they can be put straight to work on the current project.

Having dwarves idle in the meeting area gives them a chance to meditate, socialize, sing, dance, etc. which keeps them happy.  But it's also a sign that you have untapped potential to get things done.  If I have a bunch of idlers, they can almost all be put straight to work by giving them some common labors:

Stone Detailing: And smooth a bunch of rooms, engrave the dining hall rooms, etc. 
Weaving / Tailoring: Once you start growing pig tails, you can keep 5 dwarves fairly occupied constantly making fresh clothing to replace old tattered rags
Miners: Why not make some exploratory tunnels all over?  (Just make sure to wall off the caverns when you find them)
Construction / Masonry: Surface constructions take a lot of blocks and a lot of construction dwarves.  Even a simple walled courtyard with covered fortifications along the walls takes a lot of dwarf power
If you have a lot of stones, enable stone hauling on everyone and make a few big stone stockpiles.  Then crank out rock pots for days.  Doors too.  I always manage to run out of food storage and doors multiple times in every fort. 

That's all just basic stuff though.  If you have a particular goal or project in mind, just start it.  Then when it's not done instantaneously, look to what isn't getting done?  What needs to be done in order to get to the next part of it?  Then give a handful of dwarves that particular labor and nothing else.  Rinse and repeat until your tavern is empty.   

Edit: a Suggestion - Perhaps the first big project could be digging out the rooms for a large population fort.  It will take some planning, but if you have a big plan, and that plan is simple and clear, then you will not feel like you have enough dwarves.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: muldrake on October 28, 2020, 02:05:09 am
Quote from: Sugardust on October 09, 2020, 08:12:07 pm
I'm not sure how to combat this. I honestly would really much not have to play with the default settings in LNP, as I don't use LNP. It's just very hard to keep track of what dwarves do what and how to make sure most people are doing jobs. Any advice for how to combat this would be appreciated.
If you make a practice of giving every dwarf smoothed, engraved quarters with high quality furnishings, maybe even made of things in their preferences, you'll be able to keep busy doing that for some time.  There are also megaprojects.  One of my first is usually channeling out something like a 15x15 underground farm, then building a roof over it, so that you can grow all the aboveground plants without actually going outside again.  I usually get flooded with guild requests at some point too, and between those and temple complexes, the arrival of new dwarves actually keeps me busy.  My objection is all the things you can do for them distract me from other projects I'd like to do.  There's also always just busywork like making trade goods to buy out the entire caravan, training troops (I put everyone qualified into a squad and stagger training monthly or seasonally for the part-timers).
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Starver on October 28, 2020, 04:02:07 am
Quote from: muldrake on October 28, 2020, 02:05:09 am
One of my first is usually channeling out something like a 15x15 underground farm, then building a roof over it, so that you can grow all the aboveground plants without actually going outside again.
This is actually one of my defaults go-tos. Not 15x15 in one go[1], and sometimes I dig the Z-1 soil-room out first then later peel back the soil roof (cave-in avoiding - designation priorities makes this quicker to do-and-forget safely) and re-cover, if I'm not reserving for dwarven crops.

But the roof there isn't as necessary (I tend to just cross with a gantry, at minimum, and set hives up on that 'stone block ground') because I've been building at least 2Z of walls around the area (with ditches and drawbridgen) and then entirely roof over the whole area. Sunken farms, overground grazing areas, orchards and as-yet-unassigned space. Easily absorbs my potential workforce. ;) Also teaches you how to order and prioritise construction jobs!

[1] I overwhelmingly plan with 11x11 superblocks, between criss-cross corridoors, and farm plots are either striped 1x11s in one of those rooms or quartered into 5x5s with walls.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Orange-of-Cthulhu on November 03, 2020, 06:53:58 pm
My method to keep population manageable for me (150-160) is to conquer some site, and then simply expel all the migrants to the conquered place immediately when they arive.

That way you can also always call back some dwarves if you happen to for some reason have too few dwarves.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: Chief10 on November 11, 2020, 04:51:26 pm
In terms of keeping interest, I always set the pop cap to ~50 and then name every single dwarf as they come on the map. That way they keep some personality, and I'm more interested in doing good for things for them and avoiding danger. It really ups the role-playing aspect imo.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by too many dwarves
Post by: MC on November 12, 2020, 07:19:06 am
Quote from: Chief10 on November 11, 2020, 04:51:26 pm
In terms of keeping interest, I always set the pop cap to ~50 and then name every single dwarf as they come on the map. That way they keep some personality, and I'm more interested in doing good for things for them and avoiding danger. It really ups the role-playing aspect imo.

I cannot second this enough. One of the forts I remember the most was the one where I named all the dwarves after members of my guild in an online game and tried to match their personalities up as well as letting them choose what their dwarves did for a living. In general tho naming dwarves is really underratted. It's a great way to grow attached to them and actually care about them other than "oh that guy was my best engraver, guess I gotta add a new one".