Post by: Mephansteras on June 03, 2014, 05:59:34 pm
Minimum 9 players. I doubt we'll get a huge number of players, but that's enough for a decent game.
Players:
Jack A.T.- Town WizardJim Groovester- Town Lone Witch- ToonyMan
- IronyOwl
Persus13- Dark Magusnotquitethere- Town WarlockHapah- TownspersonToaster- Magus Thief- zombie urist
Nerjin- Town SeerFlandre- Town DreamwalkerJiokuy- Werebear Serial KillerMyOwnWorstEnemy- Necromancer Serial Killer
Replacement queue
- Nerjin
Replacement List
TheWetSheep has replaced in for 4maskwolf. (Medical reasons)
4maskwolf has returned and taken over again for TheWetSheep
Hapah has replaced in for Tiruin (Lack of time/Net)
MyOwnWorstEnemy has replaced in for Imperial Guardsman (overwhelmed)
IronyOwl has replaced in for flabort (Camping)
Nerjin has replaced in for 4maskwolf(Out of town)
Post by: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:00:59 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 03, 2014, 06:02:41 pm
Roles: The basic information about available town roles will be known. However, I will only give a general description of each role that will give an indication of what the role can do. More specific information will be given in role PMs as necessary. This means you will not know the specific rules of many of the roles, even if you know what they do. There may also be variations on the town roles, both within a game and between games.
Scum and 3rd party role information is not going to be posted in the thread.
All players are Town Aligned unless noted otherwise in their Role PM.
Quoting the Mod without permission results in a Modkill and a ban from the next game I run.
PMs are not allowed unless your Role specifically allows it.
Days will go for 72 hours (Ignoring weekends) or until everyone has voted (if there is a long period of inactivity after everyone votes I'll end the day to keep things moving).
In the event of a tie, no lynch will occur.
Night will go for 24 hours, though that's somewhat flexible. If you do not have your action in within the 24 hours you run the risk of losing your action for the night, though. If you choose not to use your action, please send that instead of just waiting for me to get on with the night without you.
Extensions: Extensions require at least 25% of the living players requesting an extension. Votes against the extension will reduce the counted number requesting (so, of 8 players if 3 vote for an extension and one votes against it it's still 2 for, which is 25%, which grants the extension.)
Extensions will extend the day by 24 hours. No more then two extensions will be granted on any given game day.
Shortens: Shortening the day has a larger impact than Extensions, so it requires 75% of the living players requesting it to succeed. If the Game is Shortened it will end as soon as I do the tally with 75%+ players voting for it. It is possible that I will end all voting for the day but need a bit to do the final write-up, in which case further votes will not be counted that day.
All votes should be colored red to make it easy for me to spot them.
In the event of a tie, a No-Lynch will occur.
Speaking While Dead: The dead may post once after they have died to comment on their death. They may not provide any information about the game in this post. After this, any posting in the game before it has ended will result in a one game ban from future games. Repeated abuse, or posts that have a major impact on the game, can result in a permaban from any future games.
Scum, Coven Witches, and some third parties will have special chat areas on http://www.quicktopic.com. I will PM the appropriate link to you at the start of the game or when you die.
There is no Dead Chat for this game, since coming back from the dead is possible.
Event Order: The order of events is generally as follows:
Misdirection
Role-blocking
Protection
Investigations
Night Kills/Conversions
Disturbing the Dead (there is an order for this, if two people target the same corpse, but that's kept hidden)
All kills will be effectively simultaneous. (I may make some literary liberties with this in the PMs, though)
Also, not all roles require the player to leave the house. Generally, magic sounding roles are going to work like Psychic roles in Paranormal. If your role does not require you to leave your house to use, you will be informed of this fact. Roles who don't leave their house cannot be role-blocked by the Guard, though he still protects them.
Potential Town Roles
- Knight - a well trained, armed, and armored warrior. The Knight is too skilled to be easily slain by an attacker.
- Guard - the Guard can lock someone in their house and stand guard through the night. This keeps them in, and others out. At least as long as the guard is around.
- Mystic - Mystics can pierce the veil of reality to discover hidden truths. Seer, Oracles, and Fortune Tellers are all varieties of Mystic.
- Thief - A wanderer of the night. Thieves often spot what others are up to.
- Sorcerer - A powerful mage, the sorcerer likes to keep to himself and has the power to enforce his seclusion.
- Wizard - A powerful mage, the Wizard can use his powers to help keep others safe.
- Warlock - A mage who seeks knowledge from the shades of the dead
- Illusionist - A mage whose mastery of light and shadow can use misdirection to help or harm.
- Dreamwalker - An individual whose dreams may in fact be a reflection of reality
- Priest - An individual dedicated to the gods. How well they serve the gods depends on just how dedicated they actually are.
- Sexton - Charged with caring for the graveyard, he has much to do lately.
- Sage - A learned individual, who can use this knowledge to piece together the clues and discover the truth of the recent events
- Monster Hunter - A powerful warrior, trained to hunt down and kill the monsters that roam the world. May specialize in specific types.
- Witch - Secretive folk who practice forbidden, ancient rites. They hold few secrets from one another
- Werebear - Cursed or blessed, it is hard to say, but these people have great power within them. Beware their fury when provoked.
- Exorcist - Holy men and women trained in holy magics to battle the evils of the Underworld.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 03, 2014, 06:10:00 pm
In.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 06:19:04 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on June 03, 2014, 06:55:42 pm
I'm in just so I can defeat you.
Post by: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:59:34 pm
Goddamn you Jack AT you threw off Meph's groove.A guarantee that we will be on the same team.
I'm in just so I can defeat you.
Post by: flabort on June 03, 2014, 07:10:58 pm
In
Post by: Persus13 on June 03, 2014, 09:05:17 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 04, 2014, 01:51:04 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 04, 2014, 03:38:57 am
Also other people like ToonyMan NQT and others..
Post by: Toaster on June 04, 2014, 07:37:41 am
Post by: Shakerag on June 04, 2014, 09:26:35 am
Post by: Toaster on June 04, 2014, 09:28:13 am
Post by: Mephansteras on June 04, 2014, 11:15:36 am
Post by: zombie urist on June 04, 2014, 12:53:00 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 04, 2014, 02:03:02 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 04, 2014, 02:13:50 pm
inYou've returned!
*hugs*
Post by: RangerCado on June 05, 2014, 01:35:36 pm
(subtle enough? ;D)
Post by: Ottofar on June 06, 2014, 11:58:57 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 06, 2014, 03:59:23 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 06, 2014, 04:03:26 pm
If I start the game Tuesday, that should give everyone at least a day to participate in. That work for everyone?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 06, 2014, 05:40:03 pm
If I start the game Tuesday, that should give everyone at least a day to participate in. That work for everyone?Yep.
Post by: flabort on June 06, 2014, 06:03:25 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 06, 2014, 09:02:04 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 06, 2014, 10:24:02 pm
If I start the game Tuesday, that should give everyone at least a day to participate in. That work for everyone?
Yes.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 06, 2014, 11:59:46 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 07, 2014, 12:53:52 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 07, 2014, 04:46:46 pm
Supernatural 6 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.15)
Supernatural 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106608.msg3165006#msg3165006)
Supernatural 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89665.msg2473824#msg2473824)
Supernatural 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=74938.msg1875341#msg1875341)
Supernatural 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1436015#msg1436015)
Supernatural 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59269.msg1328001#msg1328001)
Post by: Spacefaye on June 08, 2014, 10:21:44 pm
Post by: Spacefaye on June 08, 2014, 10:23:13 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 09, 2014, 03:22:32 am
In
Out
Shake It All About
You Do The Hokey-Cokey And You Turn Around
That's What It's All About
Post by: ToonyMan on June 09, 2014, 10:37:24 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 09, 2014, 10:51:23 am
Post by: Mephansteras on June 09, 2014, 11:08:16 am
I'll leave the signups open until ~4PM Pacific today, at which point I'll start getting the game set up.
Game will start tomorrow morning.
Post by: zombie urist on June 09, 2014, 07:31:48 pm
In the US its Hokey Pokey.You Do The Hokey-Cokey And You Turn Around
Post by: notquitethere on June 10, 2014, 09:57:05 am
In the US its Hokey Pokey.I will remember this. I hope the theory that new knowledge displaces older knowledge is incorrect...
Post by: Mephansteras on June 10, 2014, 12:45:00 pm
Dark times have come to this town. Last night five priests were found dead outside the temple.
A message?
The act of a madman?
A declaration of war?
You're not sure. What you do know is that the High Priest has invoked The Pact of Earth and Sky. An ancient ritual, the Pact symbolizes the Duty Man has to the Gods, and the Duty the Gods have to Man. Those of you who have been summoned represent both the Hope for the Town, as well as those who bring it Doom.
While the Ritual is in effect, the Thirteen of you are bound to one another. You cannot act for or against anyone not of the Pact, and you must work together to rid the town of whatever Evil has infested it.
Each day you will deliberate, and at sundown you shall decide one of you who shall die. Choose wisely, and the threat to the town can be eliminated. Choose poorly, and you only hasten your own downfall.
And so you stand in the Chamber of Justice, staring at a circle of faces. You thought you knew one another, but now? Now you cannot be sure who is friend and who is foe.
Good luck to you, and may the Pact bring us all salvation!
Day will end ~4pm Pacific Friday
Fair warning, there is at least one potential new element in the game this time.
Post by: Toaster on June 10, 2014, 12:49:15 pm
Flabort: If you were a miller, would you claim it ahead of time?
Jiokuy: I don't recall playing with you before. Have you read the previous Supernatural games?
Imperial Guardsman: What have you learned from the P/KotM games that you will apply here?
Post by: notquitethere on June 10, 2014, 01:18:43 pm
Jim Groovester What style of play does a Supernatural game best suit?
ToonyMan Do you think not voting is ever a scum tell?
flabort Do you trust your own judgements?
Persus13 Do you intend to talk to everyone on Day 1?
notquitethere What's hiding beneath the hood?
Tiruin Which is the greater town virtue: clarity, suspicion or honesty?
King Toaster What do you think the outcome of D1 will be?
zombie urist If you're a benign third party, would you claim?
4maskwolf Is lynching an absent player a good plan on D1?
Ottofar Who do you think scum will lynch tonight?
Jiokuy You're scum aren't you? Better save us all some time and admit it now.
Imperial Guardsman Are you going to vote for someone today?
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 01:43:28 pm
Jack A.T. Day 1 most often ends in a mislynch. What are personally going to do to prevent this?notquitethere: I will play like I normally do: hunt for scum, re-evaluate reads constantly/be open to the idea that I'm erring in my reads, and try to make sure that any lynch going through is for good reason.
Hypothetical situation: You're town at 3 person lylo. One of the other players has posted many, many posts throughout the game, and is always online when others are. That player's posts, however, are low on game-related content both individually and as a group. The second player has a job that prevents them from posting much, and usually manages one post per real-time day. Their posts, however, are high on content and well-reasoned. Based on that evidence alone, who do you vote to lynch?
Toaster: Of the previous Supernatural scum types, which do you consider the most dangerous?
Jiokuy: I don't recognize you. Please summarize your previous mafia experience, both on and off this forum.
Ottofar: I remember you. Still lurky?
Persus13: What did you learn from Supernatural 6, if you can remember that game, that you think you can apply here?
flabort: You stated recently in the Banter thread that you consider yourself to be, in part, a survivalist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136990.msg5357841#msg5357841) when it comes to your playstyle, with survivalist defined in a way that focuses on trying to stay alive. What effect do you think that will have on this game?
Tiruin: What third party type do you most fear?
ToonyMan: What sort of cues will you look for in the flavour each day, if any?
zombie urist: Toaster is the King of the Mafia. How does this make you feel?
Imperial Guardsman: Which of the players here do you consider most dangerous, assuming you're town and they're scum? How about if you're scum and they're town?
4maskwolf: As scum, which players here would you most want on your team?
Post by: Persus13 on June 10, 2014, 02:17:48 pm
Persus13 Do you intend to talk to everyone on Day 1?I have no idea. I just make things up as I go along, Indiana Jones style.
Persus13: What did you learn from Supernatural 6, if you can remember that game, that you think you can apply here?Well it was my second game ever, and the first full game I played. I learned that sometimes you just have to trust someone, sometimes you have to not trust someone, reevaluate what you think you know at least once a day, don't trust Tiruin, don't get on Jim's bad side, avoid posts with ambiguous wording, scumhunting is regarded differently in many ways, sometimes mods forget stuff, some people tend to tunnel when they're scum, don't use cult in a Supernatural game without specifying which type, and don't trust Tiruin.
Also, scum might let slip the scumteam type by repeated insistence that it can't be that.
Toaster: What are your thoughts on the Devil/Demon SK roles?
Notquitethere: What do you think about the Priest role in Supernatural games. If you were a priest, how would you play differently from Supernatural 6?
Toonyman: What Supernatural game is your favorite? Why?
Ottofar: Has any Supernatural game had a sorcerer? If you could choose a role, what would you pick?
4maskwolf: You read any previous Supernatural games? Have any favorites?
Post by: zombie urist on June 10, 2014, 02:18:40 pm
jack: like toast
persus: no
pfp
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 10, 2014, 02:29:32 pm
Imperial Guardsman: What have you learned from the P/KotM games that you will apply here?I have seen the various town and mafia tactics of other players and will attempt to remember and apply what I can.
Imperial Guardsman Are you going to vote for someone today?With proof, or to scumhunt, certainly.
Imperial Guardsman: Which of the players here do you consider most dangerous, assuming you're town and they're scum? How about if you're scum and they're town?If I'm Town and they are Scum, NQT, Toaster, and Perseus are my 3 picks for most dangerous.
If I'm Scum, and they are town, NQT role fishes and looks at the claims to see if other peoples claims and arguments are true. Toaster has shown to be extremely competent, from his work in the King of the Mafia game.
Also, not considering the possibility of a Cult or SK is ignorant. If you looked at the past games, you know very well that there is a good possibility of a hostile third being in play.
Jack A.T. for Third Party.
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2014, 02:35:10 pm
Flabort: If you were a miller, would you claim it ahead of time?
Oh, definitely. I'm not, though.
flabort Do you trust your own judgements?
85% of the time. Yes. Mostly.
flabort: You stated recently in the Banter thread that you consider yourself to be, in part, a survivalist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136990.msg5357841#msg5357841) when it comes to your playstyle, with survivalist defined in a way that focuses on trying to stay alive. What effect do you think that will have on this game?
Same effect it always has: someone will confuse me with scum and I'll get lynched.
Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?
On their victory? No, not really.
Jim Groovester If there is two anti-town teams or a serial killer, what would your response to hunt them be?
Toonyman If there were a kingmaker, and the king had 5 votes to use, would you try to lynch the kingmaker?
Tiruin What power benefits town the most: Information, Death, or Prevention?
Zombie Urist What kind of scum role would you most like to be?
4maskwolf If you were suicidal, would you claim?
Ottofar What kind of faction would you most want to be a part of?
Jiokuy I DO recognize you. Have you ever played on Giant in the Playground forums?
Imperial Gaurdsman If you had two votes on you for no reason given, how would you respond right now?
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 02:36:50 pm
Also, not considering the possibility of a Cult or SK is ignorant. If you looked at the past games, you know very well that there is a good possibility of a hostile third being in play.Imperial Guardsman: And is there a reason why you think I'm not considering the possibility of a Cult or SK?
Jack A.T. for Third Party.
Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?Persus13: Huh?
Also, scum might let slip the scumteam type by repeated insistence that it can't be that.How will you tell the difference between legitimate questioning of the scumteam type and scummy false insistence?
flabort: So, how do you intend to make sure people don't think you're scum?flabort: You stated recently in the Banter thread that you consider yourself to be, in part, a survivalist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136990.msg5357841#msg5357841) when it comes to your playstyle, with survivalist defined in a way that focuses on trying to stay alive. What effect do you think that will have on this game?Same effect it always has: someone will confuse me with scum and I'll get lynched.
Post by: Toaster on June 10, 2014, 02:37:58 pm
King Toaster What do you think the outcome of D1 will be?
Going on past experience, derping around, pointless theorycrafting on the nature of the scum team, then a mislynch. If we're lucky there will be some worthy data points to look back on come D2.
Jack A T:
Toaster: Of the previous Supernatural scum types, which do you consider the most dangerous?
The Vampire Lord type. Cults are dangerous, especially if the recruits keep their role.
Persus:
Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?
Nope.
Toaster: What are your thoughts on the Devil/Demon SK roles?
They're very different. The Devil is a true outsider, and doesn't care at all about scum/town interplay beyond reasoning who is likely to accept his deals. He also departs when his wincon is fulfilled and allows the game to continue.
The Demon's just a SK, with all the expected effects on the game.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 10, 2014, 02:49:32 pm
Well, jack, if you WERE, you would have asked me about them!Also, not considering the possibility of a Cult or SK is ignorant. If you looked at the past games, you know very well that there is a good possibility of a hostile third being in play.Imperial Guardsman: And is there a reason why you think I'm not considering the possibility of a Cult or SK?
Jack A.T. for Third Party.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 10, 2014, 02:52:55 pm
I've read the first supernatural, and I will be looking forward to reading the rest in the future.
How did you earn your title Lord Toaster?
@notquitethere: Quick to accuse aren't you? Afraid you will slip up and reveal your true nature?
@Jack A T: I'm an intermediate player. I am not a strong scum hunter (primarily due to inexperience), I do however have a strong command of the various mechanics (E.G. obscure roles and things like WiFoM).
@flabort: Alas I have not played on GitP (although I enjoy Oots), however we did play together in the Battle of Orbfalls. ( I was killed night 3 I believe) Did you enjoy the Battle of Orbfalls?(Delays aside)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Imperial Guardsman: What would you consider the tells of a cult? (I have read several games that included them, but never played against a cult myself)
Post by: ToonyMan on June 10, 2014, 02:55:47 pm
ToonyMan Do you think not voting is ever a scum tell?Yes. A vote is usually the only thing town can use to kill scum.
@Jack A T:
ToonyMan: What sort of cues will you look for in the flavour each day, if any?I don't know. I can't remember being able to do well just from reading flavor in Supernatural.
Have a wild guess in what this potential new element is?
@Persus13:
Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?I bet it's a cult with something random thrown in.
Toonyman: What Supernatural game is your favorite? Why?Supernatural Mafia 4. I wasn't in this game, however there were devils and demons and everybody died horribly.
Also this happened. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89665.msg2630678#msg2630678)
In terms of my past history with Supernatural:
Supernatural 6 - Town Warlock who got totally owned by a super overpowered mafia team. My first lose.
Supernatural 5 - Incredibly bizarre game that ends up stalling and dying, the outcome is a draw I think. I started as a Town Knight and ended up getting revived by a Werewolf Priest to become a Werewolf Knight. My scum buddies were Orangebottle, Tiruin, and Think0028 who was replaced by Flandre who was replaced by Webadict.
Supernatural 4 - not in
Supernatural 3 - not in
Supernatural 2 - Cult Sexton with scum buddies Toaster and Org, I randomly lied about seeing something that turned out to be true, scum win after Toaster gets us the victory. I did not survive again.
Supernatural 1 - Human Vampire Hunter in a game with no vampires, town win though I did not survive.
Out of a total of 4 games I've finished so far:
2 wins - one as town, one as mafia
1 lose - as town
1 draw - as mafia
@flabort:
Toonyman If there were a kingmaker, and the king had 5 votes to use, would you try to lynch the kingmaker?Uh, if I thought they were scum, yes.
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 03:09:55 pm
Jiokuy: Alright. Where have you played before?
Have a wild guess in what this potential new element is?ToonyMan: One possibility is a new scumteam type, likely undead or religious in nature. However, I lean more towards a new role (whether possibly town or third party) with ties to the temple (our situation is centred around the temple and clergy), fitting the "potential" part better.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 10, 2014, 03:11:27 pm
@Imperial Guardsman: What would you consider the tells of a cult? (I have read several games that included them, but never played against a cult myself)NO cultist wants ANY buddy of his to die. A good giveaway of a cult is a stupidly strong attachment with each other. Vote one cultist, the rest of his buddies come to defend. Cultists rely on secrecy, and if that secrecy is lost, its not uncommon for the town and an exposed maf, or town and other thirds, or maf and thirds to team up to take the cult down.
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2014, 04:02:59 pm
By continuing to improve myself and my tactics, and asking less dumb questions and more smart questions.flabort: So, how do you intend to make sure people don't think you're scum?flabort: You stated recently in the Banter thread that you consider yourself to be, in part, a survivalist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136990.msg5357841#msg5357841) when it comes to your playstyle, with survivalist defined in a way that focuses on trying to stay alive. What effect do you think that will have on this game?Same effect it always has: someone will confuse me with scum and I'll get lynched.
@flabort: Alas I have not played on GitP (although I enjoy Oots), however we did play together in the Battle of Orbfalls. ( I was killed night 3 I believe) Did you enjoy the Battle of Orbfalls?(Delays aside)Ah! That's why your name is familiar. Yes, it was quite fun. I learned a lot from that one alone.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@flabort:Good enough. However, if they were lazy town and kept appointing confirmed scum as king, would that change your mind?Toonyman If there were a kingmaker, and the king had 5 votes to use, would you try to lynch the kingmaker?Uh, if I thought they were scum, yes.
Would you lynch any form of lazy town that was being helpful to scum?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 10, 2014, 05:22:31 pm
4maskwolf Is lynching an absent player a good plan on D1?We've had this argument before. I don't like it, but I'm not going to push the issue. We've had a difference of opinions since GBU and it isn't going to change now.
4maskwolf: As scum, which players here would you most want on your team?Erm...
*checks players list*
NQT and Tiruin: both strong players who I've seen play in the past.4maskwolf: You read any previous Supernatural games? Have any favorites?Nope. Moving on.4maskwolf If you were suicidal, would you claim?Depends on if you mean in real life or in game.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 10, 2014, 05:39:43 pm
4maskwolf Is lynching an absent player a good plan on D1?We've had this argument before. I don't like it, but I'm not going to push the issue. We've had a difference of opinions since GBU and it isn't going to change now.
Erm...4maskwolf: As scum, which players here would you most want on your team?
*checks players list*
NQT and Tiruin: both strong players who I've seen play in the past.
4maskwolf: You read any previous Supernatural games? Have any favorites?Nope. Moving on.
4maskwolf If you were suicidal, would you claim?Depends on if you mean in real life or in game.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 10, 2014, 06:36:29 pm
Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
Post by: Mephansteras on June 10, 2014, 06:39:11 pm
Jack A.T.: ToonyMan
Jiokuy: notquitethere
Ottofar: Jack A.T.
zombie urist: flabort
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Friday.
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 06:47:14 pm
It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDSImperial Guardsman: I did ask about third parties. I asked Tiruin about what third party type she feared the most. You seemed to be focusing on the fact that I didn't specifically ask you about third parties.
As a side note, for the purposes of Supernatural, I consider cult to be one of the types of main scumteam (these games have tended to have either a classic mafia team and third parties or a cult team and third parties), and to fall within the general "scum" umbrella.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 10, 2014, 08:58:01 pm
whereIt just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDSImperial Guardsman: I did ask about third parties. I asked Tiruin about what third party type she feared the most. You seemed to be focusing on the fact that I didn't specifically ask you about third parties.
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 09:01:03 pm
whereImperial Guardsman: In my first post in this thread. Here's a quote:
Tiruin: What third party type do you most fear?How carefully did you read my initial post?
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2014, 09:01:25 pm
Tiruin: What third party type do you most fear?
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2014, 09:02:08 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 10, 2014, 10:17:28 pm
Very, I overlooked that.whereImperial Guardsman: In my first post in this thread. Here's a quote:Tiruin: What third party type do you most fear?How carefully did you read my initial post?
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 12:26:32 am
Another question: at the time that you FoSed me, Toaster's only post had RVS questions, but none about third parties. Were you aware of this? If so, what made you choose to single me out?
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 05:49:59 am
Going on past experience, derping around, pointless theorycrafting on the nature of the scum team, then a mislynch. If we're lucky there will be some worthy data points to look back on come D2.Yeah that does sound plausible. Do you have any suggestions for making the first day more useful?
Indiana Persus
Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?It'll be you and Tiruin in a inverted satanic golem cult. I called it first.
Notquitethere: What do you think about the Priest role in Supernatural games. If you were a priest, how would you play differently from Supernatural 6?I'd be tempted to resurrect early like before, as I'm always worried about dying before I get to use my powers, but maybe I'd wait and resurrect someone who was competent and had a useful role this time. How would you treat a Priest role?
Jack
notquitethere: I will play like I normally do: hunt for scum, re-evaluate reads constantly/be open to the idea that I'm erring in my reads, and try to make sure that any lynch going through is for good reason.Sounds good. Look forward to seeing this.
Hypothetical situation: You're town at 3 person lylo. One of the other players has posted many, many posts throughout the game, and is always online when others are. That player's posts, however, are low on game-related content both individually and as a group. The second player has a job that prevents them from posting much, and usually manages one post per real-time day. Their posts, however, are high on content and well-reasoned. Based on that evidence alone, who do you vote to lynch?If I think the lower post count person is more engaged in the game as a game of mafia and there was literally nothing else to go on, I'd vote the mass poster, but more generally scum are almost never the most frequent posters (last year, by my count, only one game had scum as the most frequent poster). What would you do in that situation?
ZU
nqt: if i needed toPhone post. I've been there. Do you think you're going to be engaged enough with the game to be able to give your reads on Friday?
Wolf
We've had this argument before. I don't like it, but I'm not going to push the issue. We've had a difference of opinions since GBU and it isn't going to change now.I think I've probably softened a little bit on this; right now I'd characterise my position as: absent players are good for scum no matter what their alignment but often there are better candidates for lynching and pressure should still be exerted on the players that are present.
*checks players list*Thanks for the vote of confidence scumbuddy ;)
NQT and Tiruin: both strong players who I've seen play in the past.
Do you think it's important to talk to everyone on Day 1?
IG
With proof, or to scumhunt, certainly.I'll hold you to that.
Jack A.T. for Third Party.Not all third parties are bad. Why do you think Jack's 3rd party?
Flabort, who's scummiest right now?
Toony
Yes. A vote is usually the only thing town can use to kill scum.I'm glad we're of an accord on this point.
Is there anything from your long Supernatural experience that we should be aware of?
Jiokuy
@notquitethere: Quick to accuse aren't you? Afraid you will slip up and reveal your true nature?I don't even fear fear itself, but I am quick to accuse players I've not played with before. I see you've FOS'd me. That's cute. Are you going to vote anyone today?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ottofar on June 11, 2014, 06:50:17 am
Toaster
Ottofar: Would you rather kill scum yourself or get them lynched?
Whichever gets them quicker. I'm kinda bad at leading lynches, though, so probably kill them myself.
NQT
Ottofar Who do you think scum will lynch tonight?
Eh, if you mean scum nightkills, I'm guessing Jim would be pretty high on that list.
If you mean D1 Lynch, I could guess 4maskwolf or this new guy, Jiokuy.
Jack
Ottofar: I remember you. Still lurky?
I try not to.
Persus
Ottofar: Has any Supernatural game had a sorcerer? If you could choose a role, what would you pick?
Not as far as I recall, could be mistaken though. Why don't you go check yourself?
Anyway I'd pick a role that gives info, a Sage or a Dreamwalker, or perhaps a Mystic, especially with the new mechanic Meph mentioned.
Flabort
Ottofar What kind of faction would you most want to be a part of?
I'd like to be a mason, I've never been one. Also, being a cult leader could be fun.
Jiokuy, what is your favourite role power?
Which role power would you most like to have right now?
Which power would you never want scum to have (pick one)?
What is your alignment?
What is your favourite alignment?
What colour is my drapery?
What kind of scumteam do you think we're against?
What do you expect from the game?
Who do you think is scum?
Who is the most likely person to be town right now, from your point of view?
Who are you?
Who would you roleblock at night?
Who would you protect?
Should Millers claim in their 1st post?
Should any other roles claim right off the bat?
Is claiming a Miller a towntell, a scumtell or a null one?
Post by: Toaster on June 11, 2014, 08:35:28 am
@King Toaster: I play around one game each season. I was last in the battle for Orbfalls.
I've read the first supernatural, and I will be looking forward to reading the rest in the future.
How did you earn your title Lord Toaster?
Ah. I might have to actually get around to reading that game sometime, then.
By winning King of the Mafia 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137539.0).
What lessons from those two games are you bringing here?
Imperial Guardsman:
Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
Do you realize you're chasing an absurd argument?
NQT:
His ToastlinessGoing on past experience, derping around, pointless theorycrafting on the nature of the scum team, then a mislynch. If we're lucky there will be some worthy data points to look back on come D2.Yeah that does sound plausible. Do you have any suggestions for making the first day more useful?
Don't be stupid?
In seriousness, it's something I've wondered for years. The best way is for nobody to think "this is D1 so there's no information to go on" and to instead think "this is D1; I need to force out information." There have been games with great dialog on D1, and I have found scum on the first day before. There are also many games with heavy doses of derping around.
I think the biggest problem of D1 play is people tend to get focused on the first issue that comes up and drive a lynch off that, instead of teasing out side arguments and really digging in to that first one and seeing if it's truly a lynchworthy case. Scum, of course, are typically happy to see that happen.
but more generally scum are almost never the most frequent posters (last year, by my count, only one game had scum as the most frequent poster)
Did you ever analyze if this varied by player? (As in high-average post count players versus low average post count players)
Not all third parties are bad.
There may be some that aren't overtly anti-town, but the vast, vast majority are unconcerned with a town victory. In the absence of a strong scum candidate (or LYLOesque situation where scum must be lynched) I'd be for the lynch of pretty much any third party.
Ottofar: If you're so pressed for time, why ask one player so many questions?
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 09:18:45 am
Toaster-Heika
In seriousness, it's something I've wondered for years...Some wise words. I think it's important for everyone to interact with everone else so that in future days players have more interactions to draw on. Are you going to address the people you've not spoken to yet?
As only player was an outlier there was almost no variation. Even high post players like Tiruin don't post as much when they're scum.but more generally scum are almost never the most frequent posters (last year, by my count, only one game had scum as the most frequent poster)Did you ever analyze if this varied by player? (As in high-average post count players versus low average post count players)
Where is Tiruin, as it happens?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 09:25:32 am
Imperial Guardsman: Alright.No, I was not aware.
Another question: at the time that you FoSed me, Toaster's only post had RVS questions, but none about third parties. Were you aware of this? If so, what made you choose to single me out?
Imperial Guardsman:Its getting a bit redundant now, but Im watching Jack.Do you realize you're chasing an absurd argument?Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 09:27:46 am
Post by: Toaster on June 11, 2014, 09:29:59 am
Toaster-HeikaIn seriousness, it's something I've wondered for years...Some wise words. I think it's important for everyone to interact with everone else so that in future days players have more interactions to draw on. Are you going to address the people you've not spoken to yet?
I've never made a mental point to address every single person, though I often pick players who I haven't done much with yet when I'm trying to do a partial reread.* I should probably throw out some more feelers, though.
Persus: Let's say you are an Oracle, and can see what faction a player belongs to. You inspect someone N1 and get a result that's never been seen in a Super game so far. Would you claim it?
4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?
Jim: Let's assume you're a Vampire Lord and it's N2. A couple less "townie" players have claimed strong roles. Would you base your conversion attempt to pick up a powerful role, or would you rather get a strong town player?
*If I'm stuck with no suspects, sometimes I'll semi-randomly pick a player I don't have a good read on and go reread everything of theirs. I then repeat this process until something bothers me. Typically at the end I'll have a couple players I'm questioning and one I'm actively suspecting. This is more of a D2/3 move, though.
Imperial Guardsman: That's not really an answer to my question.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 09:42:01 am
WolfI think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone. That should answer your question.We've had this argument before. I don't like it, but I'm not going to push the issue. We've had a difference of opinions since GBU and it isn't going to change now.I think I've probably softened a little bit on this; right now I'd characterise my position as: absent players are good for scum no matter what their alignment but often there are better candidates for lynching and pressure should still be exerted on the players that are present.*checks players list*Thanks for the vote of confidence scumbuddy ;)
NQT and Tiruin: both strong players who I've seen play in the past.
Do you think it's important to talk to everyone on Day 1?
4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now, Toaster. How would you answer this question?
Post by: Ottofar on June 11, 2014, 09:49:52 am
Ottofar: If you're so pressed for time, why ask one player so many questions?
Asking things doesn't require too much analysis, and I don't know who he is. Anyway, reading thread now.
Post by: Ottofar on June 11, 2014, 09:53:12 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 09:57:35 am
I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone.Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now
Post by: Ottofar on June 11, 2014, 10:10:30 am
Ottofar Why do you think Jiokuy or Wolf are most likely to die today?
Jiokuy, if he's not familiar with the playstyle here. Now that I read this thread, he seems to have played here before. Also, with the funeral and PFPing he won't likely do anything stupid.
4maskwolf, on the other hand, because question dodging, no matter how trivial is annoying at best. Also, one could argue that there could be a slippery slope on that. Also, the latest post.
maskwolf
4maskwolf If you were suicidal, would you claim?Depends on if you mean in real life or in game.
Hmm... nothing really stands out right now, Toaster. How would you answer this question?
Answer the questions, will you. Also, deflectish, this latter one.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 10:17:00 am
maskwolfHi there Ottofar.4maskwolf If you were suicidal, would you claim?Depends on if you mean in real life or in game.Hmm... nothing really stands out right now, Toaster. How would you answer this question?
Answer the questions, will you. Also, deflectish, this latter one.
First of all, what the hell do you mean by the first question. If I had a better idea then I could answer it.
Okay, for the second question, how about this:
WolfThis bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone.Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 10:30:55 am
This bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.You're more than capable of talking to everyone on Day 1. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136304.msg5025634#msg5025634) I think any of you could potentially be scum and I want to wring as much content out of everyone. You seem awfully jumpy. So, are you going to ask everyone a question or what?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 10:44:08 am
WolfThat was also my first game as scum and I felt like blending in with the crowd, I might note. My strategy has since shifted quite dramatically. You forgot to link the game you personally ran in which I did basically nothing day 1 and then found the converter through process of elimination the following day. And as I am quite busy right now doing other things, no, I won't ask questions at the moment. Perhaps later today.This bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.You're more than capable of talking to everyone on Day 1. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136304.msg5025634#msg5025634) I think any of you could potentially be scum and I want to wring as much content out of everyone. You seem awfully jumpy. So, are you going to ask everyone a question or what?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 11, 2014, 11:03:05 am
4maskwolf: notquitethere, Ottofar
Jack A.T.: ToonyMan
Ottofar: Jack A.T.
Toaster: 4maskwolf
zombie urist: flabort
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Friday
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 01:02:26 pm
If I think the lower post count person is more engaged in the game as a game of mafia and there was literally nothing else to go on, I'd vote the mass poster, but more generally scum are almost never the most frequent posters (last year, by my count, only one game had scum as the most frequent poster). What would you do in that situation?NQT: I'd vote for the high-post count, low-content player. Through playing many games, I've come to the conclusion that the primary factors leading to any given player's post count are their real life situation (see: Pandarsenic and midterms, NativeForeigner and his job, Tiruin and bad internet...) and their personality. What times other players play is also a significant factor.
My prior experience (including, among other things, both having seen scum being the most frequent posters and having been the most frequent poster as scum) has left me regarding alignment as less of a factor.
I modeled both hypothetical players around people I've played with. The high-post count, low-content player is based on SaintDraze as scum. He tended to have very high post counts for the times he lived to (sometimes being the top poster), but most of those posts were things like smiley dumps and bacon jokes, and he'd constantly double/triple/quadruple post. The low-post count, high-content player is based on a way NativeForeigner often plays whether town or scum.
Your answer, by indicating some thought with regard to post counts and activity beyond your stats, has lessened my worries about you a bit.
JackOttofar: Good. As a townie, which two players here would you most want on the same side as you? As a cultist?Ottofar: I remember you. Still lurky?I try not to.
Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Another question: at the time that you FoSed me, Toaster's only post had RVS questions, but none about third parties. Were you aware of this? If so, what made you choose to single me out?No, I was not aware.
NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway.4maskwolf: So, what exactly is it that is so wrong with trying to get people to talk? Is Day 1 so abhorrent to you that the act of trying to make you contribute during it is somehow scummy? Basically, what makes this specific point evidence against NQT?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 01:16:11 pm
Imperial Guardsman, you missed my question: why do you think Jack is third party?He didnt ask about one, not wanting to bring it up to the attention of others, I would assume?
Imperial Guardsman: That's not really an answer to my question.Then thats unfortunate.
Yes.Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Another question: at the time that you FoSed me, Toaster's only post had RVS questions, but none about third parties. Were you aware of this? If so, what made you choose to single me out?No, I was not aware.
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 01:24:27 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 01:26:39 pm
Imperial Guardsman: ... Why were you reading only things addressed to you? Are you still only doing so?I prefer to leave scumhunting to others and apply what I learn to the capabilities of the particular role I recieve and use what I have learned to scan for targets or people to accuse. I will check what everyone else is saying.
Post by: zombie urist on June 11, 2014, 01:30:24 pm
Where is Tiruin, as it happens?Isn't it too early to chase lurkers?
ZUProbably.nqt: if i needed toPhone post. I've been there. Do you think you're going to be engaged enough with the game to be able to give your reads on Friday?
Zombie Urist What kind of scum role would you most like to be?SK of some sort.
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 01:41:03 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 11, 2014, 01:56:30 pm
Post by: Jiokuy on June 11, 2014, 02:03:28 pm
Ottofar:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Lord Toaster: In addition to improving my general skills, I have learned to be less hesitant in using my role powers. (I died with 2 1-shots unused last game)
notquitethere: I'm a slow voter, I tend to FoS till I've got reasonable suspicion.(I've played&seen a bit too many games with hammering cut short with suspicion votes.) I won't go a day without voting though.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Persus13 on June 11, 2014, 02:27:35 pm
Supernatural in the past has had three different flavors of scum teams. Werewolves (Regular Mafia), Vampires (cult), and Cult (Regular Mafia with some perks). Each has appeared in two games so far.Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?
On their victory? No, not really.
I like to speculate what the scum team will be. Last Supernatural I predicted that the scum team would be Cult flavor, and I happened to be right. I was wondering who would be willing to hazard a guess, as those guesses could provide me with information (albeit WIFOMy information) once the scum team is revealed.
Jack
Persus13: Huh?See above response to flabort.
If it seems overdone or they get really worked about a small thing, although context and whether or not the player already seems scummy are also factors I'll have to include in my judgements.Also, scum might let slip the scumteam type by repeated insistence that it can't be that.How will you tell the difference between legitimate questioning of the scumteam type and scummy false insistence?
Toaster
Would you rather be a Demon or a Devil? What has your favorite role (that you played) been from the past Supernatural games you've played?Toaster: What are your thoughts on the Devil/Demon SK roles?
They're very different. The Devil is a true outsider, and doesn't care at all about scum/town interplay beyond reasoning who is likely to accept his deals. He also departs when his wincon is fulfilled and allows the game to continue.
The Demon's just a SK, with all the expected effects on the game.
Persus: Let's say you are an Oracle, and can see what faction a player belongs to. You inspect someone N1 and get a result that's never been seen in a Super game so far. Would you claim it?Yes, unless they claimed Miller at the start of the game. Then I'd wait a day to get more info before claiming. If I got a new result, they're still probably scum or third party.
Toonyman:
@Persus13:flavor cult or converter cult?Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?I bet it's a cult with something random thrown in.
Imperial Guardsman:
How is that suspicious? Half of the players probably haven't mentioned third parties in their questions.Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
You and Jack's conversation is making me wonder if you just skimmed the thread looking for something scummy to attack someone on. I find that scummy.
Notquitethere:
Probably the similar to the way you mentioned, although I'd be worried about the resurrection going wrong. Solifuge managed to get a third-party win because of a bad rez in S4? or one of those games.Notquitethere: What do you think about the Priest role in Supernatural games. If you were a priest, how would you play differently from Supernatural 6?I'd be tempted to resurrect early like before, as I'm always worried about dying before I get to use my powers, but maybe I'd wait and resurrect someone who was competent and had a useful role this time. How would you treat a Priest role?
Ottofar:
PersusI didn't want to trawl through 150+ pages to find out, and was hoping someone with more Supernatural experience would know.Ottofar: Has any Supernatural game had a sorcerer? If you could choose a role, what would you pick?Not as far as I recall, could be mistaken though. Why don't you go check yourself?
4maskwolf
You're getting really mad at a D1 pressure vote? That is scummy.WolfThis bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone.Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now
Also, just because you don't like D1 doesn't mean you shouldn't talk. I don't like D1 all that much, but I tend to try and get as much information as possible out of it. Not talking in Day 1 doesn't solve the problem of no information, it just makes it worse. If everyone didn't talk D1, it would basically cause D2 to be a D1.
You forgot to link the game you personally ran in which I did basically nothing day 1 and then found the converter through process of elimination the following day. And as I am quite busy right now doing other things, no, I won't ask questions at the moment. Perhaps later today.Yeah, but CYOM was extremely focused on roles and logic then just scumhunting. This game has some focus on roles and role powers, but the focus remains on scumhunting. Most mass-claims in this game type are usually D3 or D4, so process of elimination won't really work for you until then or later, assuming you aren't dead by then.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 02:42:39 pm
Imperial Guardsman: Alright. One more question: Before you joined your first Bay 12 Mafia game, you stated that you had "read up on a lot of guides (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4127137#msg4127137)" to determine the difference between online and offline Mafia. Were these guides from the EpicMafia wiki, by any chance? If you can't remember, feel free to say so.EM and Mafiascum, yes.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 02:43:51 pm
Imperial Guardsman:You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?How is that suspicious? Half of the players probably haven't mentioned third parties in their questions.Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
You and Jack's conversation is making me wonder if you just skimmed the thread looking for something scummy to attack someone on. I find that scummy.
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 03:08:27 pm
EM and Mafiascum, yes.Imperial Guardsman: Alright. That explains the EpicMafia tells you've been dropping (night power obsession, twitchy day game with a lean away from actually hunting scum...). Bit of advice: avoid EpicMafia. It is a cesspool, and it also uses a very different Mafia format (chatroom-based, which leads to a different play style).
You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?I can't say I'm all that impressed by Persus's attack (I find the idea of scum with over a year of Bay 12 Mafia experience skimming the thread at the very start of LYLO in search of something scummy to attack someone on a bit ridiculous), but this is certainly quite the response.
You carried out an attack, and until now, you have portrayed it as serious and based on perceived evidence. You don't get to declare it "random" and not worthy of attacks now that you're under attack for it, Imperial Guardsman. Why pretend it was just "random" now?
Persus13: Alright. To answer your initial question, if we end up with one of those scumteam types, I'm guessing not the werewolves. Day flavour fits the cult and the vampires better, I think, with the focus on the temple.
Post by: Toaster on June 11, 2014, 03:11:48 pm
4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now, Toaster. How would you answer this question?
Right now, this answer and turnaround feels really lazy to me.
Imperial Guardsman:
Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Yes.
This is extremely lazy.
Imperial Guardsman: ... Why were you reading only things addressed to you? Are you still only doing so?I prefer to leave scumhunting to others and apply what I learn to the capabilities of the particular role I recieve and use what I have learned to scan for targets or people to accuse. I will check what everyone else is saying.
So is this.
Imperial Guardsman: Alright. One more question: Before you joined your first Bay 12 Mafia game, you stated that you had "read up on a lot of guides (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4127137#msg4127137)" to determine the difference between online and offline Mafia. Were these guides from the EpicMafia wiki, by any chance? If you can't remember, feel free to say so.EM and Mafiascum, yes.
Take everything you learned from Epic Mafia and throw it away; their suggestions vary from "useless" to "actively detrimental."
Imperial Guardsman:You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?How is that suspicious? Half of the players probably haven't mentioned third parties in their questions.Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
You and Jack's conversation is making me wonder if you just skimmed the thread looking for something scummy to attack someone on. I find that scummy.
And here you tip your hand; by questioning Jack's attack on you, you reveal that not only your attack on him is random, but probably also not even serious.
So why don't you clarify things for us? Who do you actually suspect, and why?
Persus:
Supernatural in the past has had three different flavors of scum teams. Werewolves (Regular Mafia), Vampires (cult), and Cult (Regular Mafia with some perks). Each has appeared in two games so far.
To clarify a bit, the Cult and the Werewolf are both regular Mafia teams with roles taken from the town list, but with some team-specific roles (Charismatic Cultist and Werewolf Leader we've seen.)
ToasterWould you rather be a Demon or a Devil? What has your favorite role (that you played) been from the past Supernatural games you've played?Toaster: What are your thoughts on the Devil/Demon SK roles?
They're very different. The Devil is a true outsider, and doesn't care at all about scum/town interplay beyond reasoning who is likely to accept his deals. He also departs when his wincon is fulfilled and allows the game to continue.
The Demon's just a SK, with all the expected effects on the game.
Devil, probably. It's a very different game, where you have to predict what individual players are going to do in response to your offers.
Favorite role I've been? Hmm...
Spoiler: Roles (click to show/hide)
Probably the Necromancer or Devil. I'm really not that good at vigging; I hit scum far more often if I'm a SK. The Necromancer is a "safe" SK, since it's immune to trackers, watchers, PGOs, redirects, and even roleblockers.
Jack: I can tell you right now that trying to figure out the scum team from the intro flavor isn't going to work.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 03:17:05 pm
It isn't a point of evidence so much as it is a note that NQT should know better by now, so either he is really persistent or is trying to seem more active than he actually is. I'm leaning towards the first, since his first question to me was a point we have debated previously.NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway.4maskwolf: So, what exactly is it that is so wrong with trying to get people to talk? Is Day 1 so abhorrent to you that the act of trying to make you contribute during it is somehow scummy? Basically, what makes this specific point evidence against NQT?
4maskwolfMad? Point out where I am mad? Me calling it bullshit was calling a spade a spade.You're getting really mad at a D1 pressure vote? That is scummy.WolfThis bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone.Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now
Also, just because you don't like D1 doesn't mean you shouldn't talk. I don't like D1 all that much, but I tend to try and get as much information as possible out of it. Not talking in Day 1 doesn't solve the problem of no information, it just makes it worse. If everyone didn't talk D1, it would basically cause D2 to be a D1.You forgot to link the game you personally ran in which I did basically nothing day 1 and then found the converter through process of elimination the following day. And as I am quite busy right now doing other things, no, I won't ask questions at the moment. Perhaps later today.Yeah, but CYOM was extremely focused on roles and logic then just scumhunting. This game has some focus on roles and role powers, but the focus remains on scumhunting. Most mass-claims in this game type are usually D3 or D4, so process of elimination won't really work for you until then or later, assuming you aren't dead by then.
I do talk on Day One. Otherwise I would be ignoring you all right now. However, in a game such as this, there isn't the massive time crunch that I felt in KotM, so I am content to observe Day One.
If something jumps out at me, I'll chase it. Otherwise, I will answer the questions of others without asking my own. I'm sorry if that bothers you all.
I was pointing out the CYOM thing in response to his using my RVS in GBU as an example for his point, not to say that I can repeat what I did in CYOM all over again.
But as you insist:
Notquitethere: Why did you decide to waste a question bringing up a point we have argued to death already? The question about lynching inactives.
Ottofar: Watch yourself, bud. You had plenty of time to level an attack against me before NQT launched his salvo, as proven by the fact that you made the first two posts before his earlier in what is for me the morning. However, you wait until AFTER NQT has voted me, then immediately jump on the 4mask lynching train. This smacks of scumminess to me. Not bandwagoning, per se, but you didn't want to be seen as leading a town lynch if by some bizarre twist of fate a RVS lynch went through. Enough to put a mark in your book, certainly.
I'll get back to you all in a bit.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 03:19:09 pm
4mask:If you find it suspicious, then use your vote. The lynch is the weapon of the town.4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now, Toaster. How would you answer this question?
Right now, this answer and turnaround feels really lazy to me.
Since you responded, I can switch my vote to Ottofar, for reasons stated in my previous post.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 03:19:34 pm
Word of advice, if its Day 1 attack, its random.EM and Mafiascum, yes.Imperial Guardsman: Alright. That explains the EpicMafia tells you've been dropping (night power obsession, twitchy day game with a lean away from actually hunting scum...). Bit of advice: avoid EpicMafia. It is a cesspool, and it also uses a very different Mafia format (chatroom-based, which leads to a different play style).You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?I can't say I'm all that impressed by Persus's attack (I find the idea of scum with over a year of Bay 12 Mafia experience skimming the thread at the very start of LYLO in search of something scummy to attack someone on a bit ridiculous), but this is certainly quite the response.
You carried out an attack, and until now, you have portrayed it as serious and based on perceived evidence. You don't get to declare it "random" and not worthy of attacks now that you're under attack for it, Imperial Guardsman. Why pretend it was just "random" now?
And, after going back to look at the games, there are 3 SKs. the Devil, Demon, and the Necromancer. The Devil wants 3 souls, so he can win and fuck off. The Demon wants us all dead. ( might be mixing them up. ) the Necromancer wants us all dead, but can open up chat with a dead player of their choice, alerts the Sexton the minute he decides to raise a zombie, and begins his work a day late. I also notice the Cult, Vampires, and Werewolf scum teams. After taking a good look at the flavor, and the people playing, I will take a guess and assume the Cult is the mafia team, and our SK is the Necromancer.
Imperial Guardsman:Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Yes.
This is extremely lazy.
How so?Imperial Guardsman: ... Why were you reading only things addressed to you? Are you still only doing so?I prefer to leave scumhunting to others and apply what I learn to the capabilities of the particular role I recieve and use what I have learned to scan for targets or people to accuse. I will check what everyone else is saying.
So is this.
You will see how this works in the future.Imperial Guardsman: Alright. One more question: Before you joined your first Bay 12 Mafia game, you stated that you had "read up on a lot of guides (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4127137#msg4127137)" to determine the difference between online and offline Mafia. Were these guides from the EpicMafia wiki, by any chance? If you can't remember, feel free to say so.EM and Mafiascum, yes.
Take everything you learned from Epic Mafia and throw it away; their suggestions vary from "useless" to "actively detrimental."
Ill try.Imperial Guardsman:You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?How is that suspicious? Half of the players probably haven't mentioned third parties in their questions.Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
You and Jack's conversation is making me wonder if you just skimmed the thread looking for something scummy to attack someone on. I find that scummy.
Its RVS, Random attacks to find a players stance on the situation, and more importantly, HIS REACTION TO THE ATTACKS are important.
And here you tip your hand; by questioning Jack's attack on you, you reveal that not only your attack on him is random, but probably also not even serious.
So why don't you clarify things for us? Who do you actually suspect, and why?
Jack seems like the guy who will act inno and seem inno all game and then something turns around, makes him a baddie, and fucks us, or he was bad all along. 4mask seems bluh. There is something off with him. I will be watching him.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 03:21:44 pm
And you say this because? Toaster JUST SAID that the flavor does not lend itself to determining the scumteam. And what do you mean by "the people playing"Word of advice, if its Day 1 attack, its random.EM and Mafiascum, yes.Imperial Guardsman: Alright. That explains the EpicMafia tells you've been dropping (night power obsession, twitchy day game with a lean away from actually hunting scum...). Bit of advice: avoid EpicMafia. It is a cesspool, and it also uses a very different Mafia format (chatroom-based, which leads to a different play style).You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?I can't say I'm all that impressed by Persus's attack (I find the idea of scum with over a year of Bay 12 Mafia experience skimming the thread at the very start of LYLO in search of something scummy to attack someone on a bit ridiculous), but this is certainly quite the response.
You carried out an attack, and until now, you have portrayed it as serious and based on perceived evidence. You don't get to declare it "random" and not worthy of attacks now that you're under attack for it, Imperial Guardsman. Why pretend it was just "random" now?
And, after going back to look at the games, there are 3 SKs. the Devil, Demon, and the Necromancer. The Devil wants 3 souls, so he can win and fuck off. The Demon wants us all dead. ( might be mixing them up. ) the Necromancer wants us all dead, but can open up chat with a dead player of their choice, alerts the Sexton the minute he decides to raise a zombie, and begins his work a day late. I also notice the Cult, Vampires, and Werewolf scum teams. After taking a good look at the flavor, and the people playing, I will take a guess and assume the Cult is the mafia team, and our SK is the Necromancer.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 03:23:58 pm
ImperialToaster isn't the host. 4mask, its not easy for me to describe, but you are just off. And, there is a difference in play style between a normal maf team, a cultafia, and a pseudo cult team.And you say this because? Toaster JUST SAID that the flavor does not lend itself to determining the scumteam. And what do you mean by "the people playing"Word of advice, if its Day 1 attack, its random.EM and Mafiascum, yes.Imperial Guardsman: Alright. That explains the EpicMafia tells you've been dropping (night power obsession, twitchy day game with a lean away from actually hunting scum...). Bit of advice: avoid EpicMafia. It is a cesspool, and it also uses a very different Mafia format (chatroom-based, which leads to a different play style).You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?I can't say I'm all that impressed by Persus's attack (I find the idea of scum with over a year of Bay 12 Mafia experience skimming the thread at the very start of LYLO in search of something scummy to attack someone on a bit ridiculous), but this is certainly quite the response.
You carried out an attack, and until now, you have portrayed it as serious and based on perceived evidence. You don't get to declare it "random" and not worthy of attacks now that you're under attack for it, Imperial Guardsman. Why pretend it was just "random" now?
And, after going back to look at the games, there are 3 SKs. the Devil, Demon, and the Necromancer. The Devil wants 3 souls, so he can win and fuck off. The Demon wants us all dead. ( might be mixing them up. ) the Necromancer wants us all dead, but can open up chat with a dead player of their choice, alerts the Sexton the minute he decides to raise a zombie, and begins his work a day late. I also notice the Cult, Vampires, and Werewolf scum teams. After taking a good look at the flavor, and the people playing, I will take a guess and assume the Cult is the mafia team, and our SK is the Necromancer.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 11, 2014, 03:25:58 pm
@Jack A T:
Makes sense.Have a wild guess in what this potential new element is?ToonyMan: One possibility is a new scumteam type, likely undead or religious in nature. However, I lean more towards a new role (whether possibly town or third party) with ties to the temple (our situation is centred around the temple and clergy), fitting the "potential" part better.
@flabort:
If I didn't know they were actually town then yeah, lynch their lazy scum self.@flabort:Good enough. However, if they were lazy town and kept appointing confirmed scum as king, would that change your mind?Toonyman If there were a kingmaker, and the king had 5 votes to use, would you try to lynch the kingmaker?Uh, if I thought they were scum, yes.
Would you lynch any form of lazy town that was being helpful to scum?
@Notquitethere:
ToonyConverts are super dangerous and priest revives seem to work in that team's favor more often than not.Yes. A vote is usually the only thing town can use to kill scum.I'm glad we're of an accord on this point.
Is there anything from your long Supernatural experience that we should be aware of?
@Persus13:
Toonyman:Probably just flavor cult. <---wishful thinking@Persus13:flavor cult or converter cult?Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?I bet it's a cult with something random thrown in.
4maskwolf and Imperial Guardsman, what's the deal here?
I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone. That should answer your question.Can you think of why this isn't actually a good thing?
Is this because of a lack of time or lack of interest/effort?Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Yes.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 03:27:28 pm
On the other hand, Toaster has played in (all?) of the supernatural games, all of which are run by the same mod. I'm going to trust his word on this and this alone.ImperialToaster isn't the host. 4mask, its not easy for me to describe, but you are just off. And, there is a difference in play style between a normal maf team, a cultafia, and a pseudo cult team.And you say this because? Toaster JUST SAID that the flavor does not lend itself to determining the scumteam. And what do you mean by "the people playing"Word of advice, if its Day 1 attack, its random.EM and Mafiascum, yes.Imperial Guardsman: Alright. That explains the EpicMafia tells you've been dropping (night power obsession, twitchy day game with a lean away from actually hunting scum...). Bit of advice: avoid EpicMafia. It is a cesspool, and it also uses a very different Mafia format (chatroom-based, which leads to a different play style).You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?I can't say I'm all that impressed by Persus's attack (I find the idea of scum with over a year of Bay 12 Mafia experience skimming the thread at the very start of LYLO in search of something scummy to attack someone on a bit ridiculous), but this is certainly quite the response.
You carried out an attack, and until now, you have portrayed it as serious and based on perceived evidence. You don't get to declare it "random" and not worthy of attacks now that you're under attack for it, Imperial Guardsman. Why pretend it was just "random" now?
And, after going back to look at the games, there are 3 SKs. the Devil, Demon, and the Necromancer. The Devil wants 3 souls, so he can win and fuck off. The Demon wants us all dead. ( might be mixing them up. ) the Necromancer wants us all dead, but can open up chat with a dead player of their choice, alerts the Sexton the minute he decides to raise a zombie, and begins his work a day late. I also notice the Cult, Vampires, and Werewolf scum teams. After taking a good look at the flavor, and the people playing, I will take a guess and assume the Cult is the mafia team, and our SK is the Necromancer.
Everyone else who has played supernatural: Is Toaster right? Is it difficult to impossible to determine the scumteam from looking at the opening flavortext?
PPE:
4maskwolf and Imperial Guardsman, what's the deal here?In a word: time. I simply don't have the time or attention to maintain conversations with everyone at once. So I pick and choose the battles that I fight.I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone. That should answer your question.Can you think of why this isn't actually a good thing?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 03:28:17 pm
Time.Is this because of a lack of time or lack of interest/effort?Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Yes.
Post by: Tiruin on June 11, 2014, 03:29:39 pm
Everyone else who has played supernatural: Is Toaster right? Is it difficult to impossible to determine the scumteam from looking at the opening flavortext?Quickpost: Yes. In Meph's games, the flavor of how the target is killed usually signifies what the killer is, but not what role in exact. Like werewolves do the rippy killy thing. Cultists go stabby stabby and Monster Hunters usually go sword and slash.
Excuse my brevity. 4am.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 03:30:56 pm
I thought the cultists were either stab, head chop, or CORE YOUR SOUL LIKE A FUCKING APPLEEveryone else who has played supernatural: Is Toaster right? Is it difficult to impossible to determine the scumteam from looking at the opening flavortext?Quickpost: Yes. In Meph's games, the flavor of how the target is killed usually signifies what the killer is, but not what role in exact. Like werewolves do the rippy killy thing. Cultists go stabby stabby and Monster Hunters usually go sword and slash.
Excuse my brevity. 4am.
Post by: Tiruin on June 11, 2014, 03:37:25 pm
Also, language kid. Watch your mouth.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 03:41:07 pm
It's mostly stab.K
Also, language kid. Watch your mouth.
Also, then why is it that I have only seen stab like 2-3 times, when I see chopchop much more? And, doesnt the flavor omit the
uh
integrity of the body when day breaks?
Post by: Tiruin on June 11, 2014, 03:42:18 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 03:45:03 pm
Check last Supernatural. I was a werewolf(?) cultist there. Flavor was fun but the common clues persist.Wait. So that would either imply a third party cult or competing mafia.
But
no
Oh god, headache.
Post by: Toaster on June 11, 2014, 03:45:39 pm
Here are the intro posts from Supers 2, 3, and 5:
Spoiler: Super 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Super 3 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Super 5 (click to show/hide)
Compare the flavor; pretty similar, isn't it? Three different scum teams, though- cult, vampires, and werewolves. Looking to intro flavor isn't going to help you.
That said, we seem to have broken into two separate discussions here. Intro flavor; no, there's nothing there. Kill flavor; now that is potentially informational. Cults sacrifice their victims, Werewolves eat them, Demons play with the corpses, Zombies beat them to death bloodily, Monster Hunters kill and leave.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 03:47:01 pm
Monster Hunters kill and leave.THAT IS NOT IMFORMATIONAL AT ALL
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 03:56:41 pm
That was also my first game as scum and I felt like blending in with the crowd, I might note. My strategy has since shifted quite dramatically. You forgot to link the game you personally ran in which I did basically nothing day 1 and then found the converter through process of elimination the following day. And as I am quite busy right now doing other things, no, I won't ask questions at the moment. Perhaps later today.As others have pointed out, the I'm just going to sit back attitude is unhelpful and is likely to get you and IG lynched. If you're town, you should do your share of the heavy lifting. Looks like you've got something of substance in your move on Ottofar, I hope you don't forget about everyone else while you're at it.
Notquitethere: Why did you decide to waste a question bringing up a point we have argued to death already? The question about lynching inactives.If you'd have been in favour I'd have thought you scum. Was testing your consistency. Also, if you were completely disproportionate in your response I'd have raised an eyebrow. Also, it's not as if questions are a scarce resource I have to try not to waste...
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, Flabort
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
Post by: Persus13 on June 11, 2014, 04:03:48 pm
Imperial Guardsman:
You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?When I see something odd I question it. I fail to see how Jack's not asking you a question to do with third-parties means he is a third party himself. Since I don't understand that leap plus you dived into the game attacking someone for something I don't understand and admitted you haven't been reading everything lead me to wonder if you were lazy scum. I've last seen you play well as town in Prince Mafia, but you didn't do as well in Round 3 as scum, so I felt your town game was better than your scum game, another reason you might have been lazy scum. I voted you because it would put pressure on you, and so you were more likely to notice my question, which you didn't answer. Now, why is Jack not asking about third-parties suspicious instead of oversight or focusing on going after the mafia/cult team we are facing?
I will take a guess and assume the Cult is the mafia team, and our SK is the Necromancer.Long as it's a guess, don't take too much stock in D1 assumptions.
I thought the cultists were either stab, head chop, or CORE YOUR SOUL LIKE A FUCKING APPLECan you specify whether you mean flavor cult or converter cult? I always find it confusing when people don't specify.
Toaster:
That's my attack on Imperial, not Jack'sImperial Guardsman:You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?How is that suspicious? Half of the players probably haven't mentioned third parties in their questions.Imperial Guardsman: Why would I specifically ask you? Why not, say, ask Tiruin about her most feared third party type?It just seems suspicious to avoid asking about thirds IN A SETUP THAT HAS A STUPIDLY HIGH CHANCE OF THIRDS
You and Jack's conversation is making me wonder if you just skimmed the thread looking for something scummy to attack someone on. I find that scummy.
And here you tip your hand; by questioning Jack's attack on you, you reveal that not only your attack on him is random, but probably also not even serious.
So why don't you clarify things for us? Who do you actually suspect, and why?
4maskwolf:
You seemed to be overworked by the fact that NQT assumed you had scumbuddies, which is a common tactic to provoke a reaction, and one I've used myself. The flimsy nature of the evidence led to believe NQT was just trying to gauge your reaction and didn't actually believe you were scum. Your reaction seemed overblown because you started swearing, and took him much more seriously than I would have expected you to, making me wonder if you had something to hide.4maskwolfMad? Point out where I am mad? Me calling it bullshit was calling a spade a spade.You're getting really mad at a D1 pressure vote? That is scummy.WolfThis bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone.Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?4mask: What's the scummiest thing you've seen so far?Hmm... nothing really stands out right now
Also, just because you don't like D1 doesn't mean you shouldn't talk. I don't like D1 all that much, but I tend to try and get as much information as possible out of it. Not talking in Day 1 doesn't solve the problem of no information, it just makes it worse. If everyone didn't talk D1, it would basically cause D2 to be a D1.You forgot to link the game you personally ran in which I did basically nothing day 1 and then found the converter through process of elimination the following day. And as I am quite busy right now doing other things, no, I won't ask questions at the moment. Perhaps later today.Yeah, but CYOM was extremely focused on roles and logic then just scumhunting. This game has some focus on roles and role powers, but the focus remains on scumhunting. Most mass-claims in this game type are usually D3 or D4, so process of elimination won't really work for you until then or later, assuming you aren't dead by then.
I do talk on Day One. Otherwise I would be ignoring you all right now. However, in a game such as this, there isn't the massive time crunch that I felt in KotM, so I am content to observe Day One.
If something jumps out at me, I'll chase it. Otherwise, I will answer the questions of others without asking my own. I'm sorry if that bothers you all.
I was pointing out the CYOM thing in response to his using my RVS in GBU as an example for his point, not to say that I can repeat what I did in CYOM all over again.
I have played with you talking during D1, however, I do feel that getting as much info as possible is a good thing, especially since I haven't seen a Mafia game this active for a while. You asking questions is a good start, and you make a good point about Ottofar, something I might not have noticed if my pressing you hadn't caused you to point that out.
Notquitethere:
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortTo early to decide. D1 isn't even halfway over yet, and Jim, Tiruin, and Zombie Urist haven't contributed more than a few sentances.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:08:08 pm
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortErm... me being lynched? I have two votes on me...
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
WolfWell that's not condescending at all.
Looks like you've got something of substance in your move on Ottofar, I hope you don't forget about everyone else while you're at it.
I have played with you talking during D1, however, I do feel that getting as much info as possible is a good thing, especially since I haven't seen a Mafia game this active for a while. You asking questions is a good start, and you make a good point about Ottofar, something I might not have noticed if my pressing you hadn't caused you to point that out.This, too, smacks of condescension. I get it, I'm not on your level, you don't need to remind me of that every game I play.
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 04:12:28 pm
Post by: zombie urist on June 11, 2014, 04:13:44 pm
nqt
Post by: notquitethere on June 11, 2014, 04:17:18 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:21:16 pm
its too early to decide.I... this...
nqt
You're a forum veteran, right? Then what's up with this? If you don't have time for a more substantial post, you can wait until you have the time: there's no huge looming deadline. Instead, you give us a vote with no follow-up questions and no rational.
I wasn't trying to say decide, ZU, I wanted your thoughts on the case as it's one of the more interesting things happening right now. At the moment I've no idea whether your vote on me stems from a desire to protect a scumbuddy or a fear I'm scum trying to lead a bandwagon or somesuch. Well?By scumbuddy do you mean me or Flabort (your current vote target).
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 04:22:02 pm
I thought victims of a flavor Cult disappeared?
Imperial Guardsman:You are accousting me for a random attack during RVS? is this actually serious?When I see something odd I question it. I fail to see how Jack's not asking you a question to do with third-parties means he is a third party himself. Since I don't understand that leap plus you dived into the game attacking someone for something I don't understand and admitted you haven't been reading everything lead me to wonder if you were lazy scum. I've last seen you play well as town in Prince Mafia, but you didn't do as well in Round 3 as scum, so I felt your town game was better than your scum game, another reason you might have been lazy scum. I voted you because it would put pressure on you, and so you were more likely to notice my question, which you didn't answer. Now, why is Jack not asking about third-parties suspicious instead of oversight or focusing on going after the mafia/cult team we are facing?
Third parties can decide games, the mafia teams are just to give us a game. Lets say its 3 people left. The Necromancer, a townie, and a maf.
There are 3 possiibilities
Townie and Maf kill the necromancer, the Maf win.
Necromancer and Townie kill the Maf, Necro wins.
Necromancer and Maf kill the townie, tie.
Unless the Townie raises up their hands, says **** it, and decides to gamethrow, the first is unlikely, BUT YOU SEE MY POINT. A third party is more dangerous and in the end it can completely eliminate the villages chance of winning. Not saying all third parties are bad, but most of the time they are out for blood and I quote(From the game The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)Yes. You see my point on being worried about our thirds.
A thing to bear in mind: we've got third parties in this game. Third parties don't stick their neck out for nobody.I will take a guess and assume the Cult is the mafia team, and our SK is the Necromancer.Long as it's a guess, don't take too much stock in D1 assumptions.
kI thought the cultists were either stab, head chop, or CORE YOUR SOUL LIKE A FUCKING APPLECan you specify whether you mean flavor cult or converter cult? I always find it confusing when people don't specify.
Whichever cult kills people and shares a night chat.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 04:22:37 pm
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 04:27:22 pm
Word of advice, if its Day 1 attack, its random.... what. So, are people supposed to just ignore your Day 1 attacks, because they're so random they're beyond suspicion and are not to be voted for?
Jack seems like the guy who will act inno and seem inno all game and then something turns around, makes him a baddie, and fucks us, or he was bad all along. 4mask seems bluh. There is something off with him. I will be watching him.... any reasons for these reads?
Jack: I can tell you right now that trying to figure out the scum team from the intro flavor isn't going to work.Toaster: Probably, yeah. It was a very weak lean. I will say, though, that while Super 2 could be anything from that OP, Super 3 gives a location of death fits vampires best (though I was there, which means I'm acting with the benefit of hindsight), and Super 5's OP gives me a weak werewolf lean due to the death location. Quickly checking the games, Super 5 was werewolves and Super 2 was cult. However, it is a very weak source of information.
Mad? Point out where I am mad? Me calling it bullshit was calling a spade a spade.4maskwolf: Alright, I'm going to get a short rant out that I've wanted to get out for some time. I absolutely hate this whole "meh, just Day 1, why bother actively trying to generate information" thing I'm seeing around this forum. I mean, I understand hating RVS like Jokerman did, though he at least was fine with non-RVS stuff. Leaning away from active participation Day 1, though? That's terrible play. It's not the most useful day, true, but sitting back and being a twit only helps the scum. Yes, you answer questions. Good for you. That's not enough.
I do talk on Day One. Otherwise I would be ignoring you all right now. However, in a game such as this, there isn't the massive time crunch that I felt in KotM, so I am content to observe Day One.
If something jumps out at me, I'll chase it. Otherwise, I will answer the questions of others without asking my own. I'm sorry if that bothers you all.
Day 1 is an important day, in that it is a day we can spend debating and getting reads. Wasting it is no good way to play Mafia.
Go. Generate information. Maximize the chances of something jumping out at you.
PPE X TOO MANY: ...wow.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 04:30:03 pm
Imperial Guardsman: I CAN YELL JUST AS LOUDLY AS YOU. Please, stop the all-caps. It's not the amazing weapon of persuasion so many Internet users are convinced it is. Just a bit of non-vote-related advice.Word of advice, if its Day 1 attack, its random.... what. So, are people supposed to just ignore your Day 1 attacks, because they're so random they're beyond suspicion and are not to be voted for?
Oh my god. No, Im done with you entirely.Jack seems like the guy who will act inno and seem inno all game and then something turns around, makes him a baddie, and fucks us, or he was bad all along. 4mask seems bluh. There is something off with him. I will be watching him.... any reasons for these reads?
Look at their posts.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:35:18 pm
Someone has apparently missed every action I have taken in the past hour and a half. Please save your rants for someone who will change their mind because of them, all it does right now is make me less inclined to play seriously.Mad? Point out where I am mad? Me calling it bullshit was calling a spade a spade.4maskwolf: Alright, I'm going to get a short rant out that I've wanted to get out for some time. I absolutely hate this whole "meh, just Day 1, why bother actively trying to generate information" thing I'm seeing around this forum. I mean, I understand hating RVS like Jokerman did, though he at least was fine with non-RVS stuff. Leaning away from active participation Day 1, though? That's terrible play. It's not the most useful day, true, but sitting back and being a twit only helps the scum. Yes, you answer questions. Good for you. That's not enough.
I do talk on Day One. Otherwise I would be ignoring you all right now. However, in a game such as this, there isn't the massive time crunch that I felt in KotM, so I am content to observe Day One.
If something jumps out at me, I'll chase it. Otherwise, I will answer the questions of others without asking my own. I'm sorry if that bothers you all.
Day 1 is an important day, in that it is a day we can spend debating and getting reads. Wasting it is no good way to play Mafia.
Go. Generate information. Maximize the chances of something jumping out at you.
Imperial Guardsman: I CAN YELL JUST AS LOUDLY AS YOU. Please, stop the all-caps. It's not the amazing weapon of persuasion so many Internet users are convinced it is. Just a bit of non-vote-related advice.This, sir, is a horrible reason for a vote. And if it's not a reason for the vote, don't put it directly after declaring a vote: that's where people look to see your reasons.
PPE:
Oh my god. No, Im done with you entirely.Don't be Jim Groovester. He did this in CYOM and ended up being wrong in that debate anyway. While I can't say that I am the best example of civility in this game, try and be polite to people and don't do things like that.
Post by: Persus13 on June 11, 2014, 04:36:48 pm
its too early to decide.I... this...
nqt
You're a forum veteran, right? Then what's up with this? If you don't have time for a more substantial post, you can wait until you have the time: there's no huge looming deadline. Instead, you give us a vote with no follow-up questions and no rational.
ZU has been posting from his phone since day start.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 04:37:16 pm
(Stops its target from being converted and deconverts their target respectivally)
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:38:13 pm
Doesn't change what I'm saying. I've done that plenty of times and my posts are still longer than that. At least a brief overview of the points would have been nice.its too early to decide.I... this...
nqt
You're a forum veteran, right? Then what's up with this? If you don't have time for a more substantial post, you can wait until you have the time: there's no huge looming deadline. Instead, you give us a vote with no follow-up questions and no rational.
ZU has been posting from his phone since day start.
That being said, I'm willing to let the issue go in that case.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 04:39:12 pm
Post by: Persus13 on June 11, 2014, 04:47:48 pm
Thanks for your post #116, and despite the messed up formatting I was able to figure out what you were trying to say. I understand why you are concerned about third parties, and thanks for being able to clearly articulate what you were trying to say. You didn't completely answer my question, but by that fact you seem very concerned about third parties is enough for me to see why you went on your attack and so I'm going to give you the benefit of an unvote. Also, do you plan on specifically hunting for third-parties and how would you go about that?
4maskwolf
Someone has apparently missed every action I have taken in the past hour and a half. Please save your rants for someone who will change their mind because of them, all it does right now is make me less inclined to play seriously.From the looks of the end of his post, it seems like he was writing that for about an hour and a half before posting it.
Meph:
Votecount, por favor.I too would like a votecount as soon as you can make one.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 04:51:13 pm
Imperial GuardsmanI plan to focus on our third parties problem and leave you all to work on the scumteam. Not saying im entirely ignoring them, but for now Im searching for our thirds.
Thanks for your post #116, and despite the messed up formatting I was able to figure out what you were trying to say. I understand why you are concerned about third parties, and thanks for being able to clearly articulate what you were trying to say. You didn't completely answer my question, but by that fact you seem very concerned about third parties is enough for me to see why you went on your attack and so I'm going to give you the benefit of an unvote. Also, do you plan on specifically hunting for third-parties and how would you go about that?
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 05:01:06 pm
This, sir, is a horrible reason for a vote. And if it's not a reason for the vote, don't put it directly after declaring a vote: that's where people look to see your reasons.4maskwolf: True, the post was poorly organized. The reason for the vote was his position on his own attacks.
Someone has apparently missed every action I have taken in the past hour and a half. Please save your rants for someone who will change their mind because of them, all it does right now is make me less inclined to play seriously.What Persus just said.
Look at their posts.Imperial Guardsman: I can't give your reasons for your reads. Your reasons for your reads are things only you know. I want to know them too. Telling me to stare at my own posts doesn't help me know what gives you your read of me.
Oh my god. No, Im done with you entirely.Alright, I can tell that interacting with me is something you don't enjoy. Try to deal with me just a bit longer, though. I still want to know exactly why you seem to consider your Day 1 attacks off limits for others to target.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:05:38 pm
Jack, you just seem simply too gung ho for Day 1. While my attacks were to get you to spill the beans and let me know about you, yours were just to get me killed, because you are either overconfident ( WHICH IS A SCUMTELL. ) or scum. You may also very well be a third party, and I have my eyes on you. Nobody knows ANYTHING D1 and this is the time to ask questions, scan posts and playstyle, and think. The power roles will help us day 2, and give us some basis and some alibi before we start the debate again.This, sir, is a horrible reason for a vote. And if it's not a reason for the vote, don't put it directly after declaring a vote: that's where people look to see your reasons.4maskwolf: True, the post was poorly organized. The reason for the vote was his position on his own attacks.Someone has apparently missed every action I have taken in the past hour and a half. Please save your rants for someone who will change their mind because of them, all it does right now is make me less inclined to play seriously.What Persus just said.Look at their posts.Imperial Guardsman: I can't give your reasons for your reads. Your reasons for your reads are things only you know. I want to know them too. Telling me to stare at my own posts doesn't help me know what gives you your read of me.Oh my god. No, Im done with you entirely.Alright, I can tell that interacting with me is something you don't enjoy. Try to deal with me just a bit longer, though. I still want to know exactly why you seem to consider your Day 1 attacks off limits for others to target.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 11, 2014, 05:15:54 pm
notquitethere
The grounds against wolf are a bit weak in my opinion.
But, I do agree that while an active day one may not be as useful as later days, but it is still a source of useful information.
And he is defiantly participating.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:17:52 pm
As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:22:01 pm
Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 11, 2014, 05:22:27 pm
4maskwolf: Ottofar, ToonyMan
flabort: notquitethere
Imperial Guardsman: Jack A.T.
notquitethere: zombie urist
Ottofar: 4maskwolf
zombie urist: flabort
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Friday
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:23:17 pm
The Scribe's Tally Sheeterm... Jack is voting for himself...
4maskwolf: Ottofar, ToonyMan
flabort: notquitethere
Jack A.T.: Jack A.T.
notquitethere: zombie urist
Ottofar: 4maskwolf
zombie urist: flabort
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Friday
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:25:54 pm
Sorry, that sounds snippy, I just am sick of mafiascum wiki stuff.Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:26:28 pm
Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 05:27:20 pm
It'll be [Persus13] and Tiruin in a satanic Golem cult. I called it first.First, that's an interesting call. From what little I know, the golem part may actually be plausable, and your suspects are possible, but it seems to be a jest, so I'll let that drop.
Flabort, who's scummiest right now?
As to your question... as of the time of asking, Imperial Guardsman was in the Orange (not red yet), and Zombie Urist in second place.
As of the time of my post, Imperial Guardsman has dropped into the Red. In second place is Zombie Urist again, but he's still at the yellow, where everyone started.
It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory.
Spoiler: Proof (click to show/hide)
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, Flabort4mask wolf is no longer in the yellow. That said, he's not in the red, orange, or full green, either; he's in the light green, so I trust him right now. I don't want him to be lynched day 1. Maybe I'll change my mind on day 2 or 3, but I trust him right now.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 05:29:54 pm
And not to mention the activity while I was asleep. Whew, this is going to make bookkeeping hard for me.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:30:11 pm
...wtf is this. Seriously, what the hell. That wasn't an appeal to emotion, it was an honest question. One that, I might note, you haven't bothered to answer. True, it wasn't the most game-necessary post. I'll admit that. But your attack is silly at best and an outright scumtell at worst. You're always a little bit on the suspicious side, but you're REALLY jumpy this game, Imperial Guardsman.Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Can you explain what "confusing scum type" even means?
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 05:32:25 pm
As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
...wtf is this.http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Argument_from_Fallacy
Caught in your own trap, IG.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:32:56 pm
Unvote ZUThats almost laughable.It'll be [Persus13] and Tiruin in a satanic Golem cult. I called it first.First, that's an interesting call. From what little I know, the golem part may actually be plausable, and your suspects are possible, but it seems to be a jest, so I'll let that drop.
Flabort, who's scummiest right now?
As to your question... as of the time of asking, Imperial Guardsman was in the Orange (not red yet), and Zombie Urist in second place.
As of the time of my post, Imperial Guardsman has dropped into the Red. In second place is Zombie Urist again, but he's still at the yellow, where everyone started.
It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory.
Almost.
Okay, sure, Flabort, Ill look at your argument and consid- WHAT ARGUMENT? You claim that Im scum because I dont want a third party victory? While I believe one man ( or woman ) in the right place can change it all, thirds are like a salad on the side of the massive dinner the 2-3 mafia will attempt to partake in, but that dinner will fight, and if the mafia arent careful, that dinner will poison them. The third is free to do what it wants while the Mafia focus on the town. It will slip away and wreak havoc on WHOEVER IT WANTS, MAFIA OR TOWN when the time is right! Thirds are DANGEROUS, flabort, and I am only correct in my paranoia against the third parties. But, I look at you. You accuse me for no reason because I want the thirds to lose?
ATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.
Post by: Persus13 on June 11, 2014, 05:34:31 pm
Out of curiosity, have you played any games with a third party?
Also, you're proof spoiler leads to a Jack At post responding to an NQT question, so I think that should be something different?
Imperial Guardsman
Wait, what? You've lost me and everyone else, please explain this post a little better.Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Also, you are aware that it's possible for a Supernatural game to not have third parties (ex. Supernatural 6), right?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:36:29 pm
no wait Unvote jack, 4maskwolf.What in all flavor of...Unvote ZUThats almost laughable.It'll be [Persus13] and Tiruin in a satanic Golem cult. I called it first.First, that's an interesting call. From what little I know, the golem part may actually be plausable, and your suspects are possible, but it seems to be a jest, so I'll let that drop.
Flabort, who's scummiest right now?
As to your question... as of the time of asking, Imperial Guardsman was in the Orange (not red yet), and Zombie Urist in second place.
As of the time of my post, Imperial Guardsman has dropped into the Red. In second place is Zombie Urist again, but he's still at the yellow, where everyone started.
It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory.
Almost.
Okay, sure, Flabort, Ill look at your argument and consid- WHAT ARGUMENT? You claim that Im scum because I dont want a third party victory? While I believe one man ( or woman ) in the right place can change it all, thirds are like a salad on the side of the massive dinner the 2-3 mafia will attempt to partake in, but that dinner will fight, and if the mafia arent careful, that dinner will poison them. The third is free to do what it wants while the Mafia focus on the town. It will slip away and wreak havoc on WHOEVER IT WANTS, MAFIA OR TOWN when the time is right! Thirds are DANGEROUS, flabort, and I am only correct in my paranoia against the third parties. But, I look at you. You accuse me for no reason because I want the thirds to lose?
ATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.
Imperial Guardsman
You're jumping all over the place, making no sense, and trying to leap on the slightest hint of a possible weakness. You're being highly defensive in a game where you never play defensively. In short, if you aren't scum, you're sure as hell third party, and as you've stated most third parties are bad.
PPE: Flabort has, in fact. GBOO.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:37:31 pm
Scum win in multiple ways....wtf is this. Seriously, what the hell. That wasn't an appeal to emotion, it was an honest question. One that, I might note, you haven't bothered to answer. True, it wasn't the most game-necessary post. I'll admit that. But your attack is silly at best and an outright scumtell at worst. You're always a little bit on the suspicious side, but you're REALLY jumpy this game, Imperial Guardsman.Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Can you explain what "confusing scum type" even means?
Confusion, treating the town like puppets to manipulate and throw away.
Deception, lying to everyone and everything and then watching the crowd kill each other over it.
Agressiveness, treating the town like a buffet to chew up and swallow.
Alliances, negotiating with the thirds and winning through bussing and assistance.
You want to win through confusion and you are trying this as we speak, with a little agressiveness and a side of deception. However, again, this is day one, right? Unless someone does something BLITHINGLY OBVIOUS like our friend flabort here, there is no reason to take any of it seriously until you read them more or it hits day two and we have 2 fresh bodies to look at. Also, flabort, we have told you MULTIPLE TIMES, ZU IS POSTING WITH HIS PHONE. HE IS AWAY.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:40:51 pm
u wot m8no wait Unvote jack, 4maskwolf.What in all flavor of...Unvote ZUThats almost laughable.It'll be [Persus13] and Tiruin in a satanic Golem cult. I called it first.First, that's an interesting call. From what little I know, the golem part may actually be plausable, and your suspects are possible, but it seems to be a jest, so I'll let that drop.
Flabort, who's scummiest right now?
As to your question... as of the time of asking, Imperial Guardsman was in the Orange (not red yet), and Zombie Urist in second place.
As of the time of my post, Imperial Guardsman has dropped into the Red. In second place is Zombie Urist again, but he's still at the yellow, where everyone started.
It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory.
Almost.
Okay, sure, Flabort, Ill look at your argument and consid- WHAT ARGUMENT? You claim that Im scum because I dont want a third party victory? While I believe one man ( or woman ) in the right place can change it all, thirds are like a salad on the side of the massive dinner the 2-3 mafia will attempt to partake in, but that dinner will fight, and if the mafia arent careful, that dinner will poison them. The third is free to do what it wants while the Mafia focus on the town. It will slip away and wreak havoc on WHOEVER IT WANTS, MAFIA OR TOWN when the time is right! Thirds are DANGEROUS, flabort, and I am only correct in my paranoia against the third parties. But, I look at you. You accuse me for no reason because I want the thirds to lose?
ATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.
Imperial Guardsman
You're jumping all over the place, making no sense, and trying to leap on the slightest hint of a possible weakness. You're being highly defensive in a game where you never play defensively. In short, if you aren't scum, you're sure as hell third party, and as you've stated most third parties are bad.
PPE: Flabort has, in fact. GBOO.
Its Day 1, I can jump all over the place, I want to see you all speak! And I see no problem with playing defensively! I see defensive play from townies all the time and at most its small accusations. I can see some of what you cant, and use it to everyones advantage. Both of you are acting overtly agressive, and that is scummy. We know NOTHING. NOTHING. Every single vote and sentence I have typed is pressure or interrogation!
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 05:41:07 pm
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.
IG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.
Also, I know ZU is PFP. That's why he hasn't posted any meaningful information to give him a town OR scum lean, whereas everyone but you has more of a town lean than they started with.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:42:15 pm
Okay, first of all, I called ZU out on the post thing too and you never yelled at me for it.Scum win in multiple ways....wtf is this. Seriously, what the hell. That wasn't an appeal to emotion, it was an honest question. One that, I might note, you haven't bothered to answer. True, it wasn't the most game-necessary post. I'll admit that. But your attack is silly at best and an outright scumtell at worst. You're always a little bit on the suspicious side, but you're REALLY jumpy this game, Imperial Guardsman.Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
PPE: IG, we're not saying getting people to talk is bad, we're saying the way you go about it is suboptimal. Also, you've never played this way in any game I have ever played with you.
Can you explain what "confusing scum type" even means?
Confusion, treating the town like puppets to manipulate and throw away.
Deception, lying to everyone and everything and then watching the crowd kill each other over it.
Agressiveness, treating the town like a buffet to chew up and swallow.
Alliances, negotiating with the thirds and winning through bussing and assistance.
You want to win through confusion and you are trying this as we speak, with a little agressiveness and a side of deception. However, again, this is day one, right? Unless someone does something BLITHINGLY OBVIOUS like our friend flabort here, there is no reason to take any of it seriously until you read them more or it hits day two and we have 2 fresh bodies to look at. Also, flabort, we have told you MULTIPLE TIMES, ZU IS POSTING WITH HIS PHONE. HE IS AWAY.
Second, I'm always aggressive. Get over it. That's how I play.
Third: yes, you pegged my scum strategy. I deceive, I lie, and I bewilder. But you claim that I am lying and bewildering because I asked you a question unrelated to the game. I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it.
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 05:48:45 pm
Meanwhile, 4mask has hit full green (+5.1 or above).
Know what? Full list of reads:
4maskwolf: +6
Jack AT: +5
Toaster: +4
Persus13: +4
NotQuiteThere: +3
Jiokuy: +3
Ottofar: +2
Toonyman: +2
ZU: +1
Imperial Guardsman: -11
Where everybody starts at 0.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:50:12 pm
IG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.No, thats not what I wanted at ALL. You shouldnt have claimed. As I said, pressure votes, interrogation, and scanning. I didnt want to force a claim. You may have very well doomed us both, flabort.
Also, I know ZU is PFP. That's why he hasn't posted any meaningful information to give him a town OR scum lean, whereas everyone but you has more of a town lean than they started with.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 11, 2014, 05:50:49 pm
Everyone else who has played supernatural: Is Toaster right? Is it difficult to impossible to determine the scumteam from looking at the opening flavortext?I would say so, yes.
PPE:How do you pick and choose?4maskwolf and Imperial Guardsman, what's the deal here?In a word: time. I simply don't have the time or attention to maintain conversations with everyone at once. So I pick and choose the battles that I fight.I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone. That should answer your question.Can you think of why this isn't actually a good thing?
@Imperial Guardsman:
Do you think this will hurt your play?Time.Is this because of a lack of time or lack of interest/effort?Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Yes.
@Jiokuy:
Lord Toaster, Toonyman: As two of the most experienced players, and since this "war" is coming to a close, care to share your reads of Wolf and Guardsman.I think they both need to calm down. I don't think either of them are smelling like roses either.
@flabort:
IG, dude. You've hit -11 on my scumometer. Nobody, nobody ever, hit's below -8.Everybody is town in your eyes except IG?
Meanwhile, 4mask has hit full green (+5.1 or above).
Know what? Full list of reads:
4maskwolf: +6
Jack AT: +5
Toaster: +4
Persus13: +4
NotQuiteThere: +3
Jiokuy: +3
Ottofar: +2
Toonyman: +2
ZU: +1
Imperial Guardsman: -11
Where everybody starts at 0.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:52:49 pm
IG, dude. You've hit -11 on my scumometer. Nobody, nobody ever, hit's below -8.Erm...
Meanwhile, 4mask has hit full green (+5.1 or above).
Know what? Full list of reads:
4maskwolf: +6
Jack AT: +5
Toaster: +4
Persus13: +4
NotQuiteThere: +3
Jiokuy: +3
Ottofar: +2
Toonyman: +2
ZU: +1
Imperial Guardsman: -11
Where everybody starts at 0.
Hang on a second...
What, exactly, did I do to hit full green?
Because you seem mighty quick to buddy up with another highly active player.
PPE:
I pick and choose the battles that seem most important. And try to stay out of ones that are irrelevant.PPE:How do you pick and choose?4maskwolf and Imperial Guardsman, what's the deal here?In a word: time. I simply don't have the time or attention to maintain conversations with everyone at once. So I pick and choose the battles that I fight.I think it is important that everyone talks, but not that I talk to everyone. That should answer your question.Can you think of why this isn't actually a good thing?
Doesn't always work, since I'm a fairly confrontational person.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:53:24 pm
@Imperial Guardsman:Flabort may have very well just ****ed me and him.Do you think this will hurt your play?Time.Is this because of a lack of time or lack of interest/effort?Imperial Guardsman: Interesting. Why weren't you aware of that? Had you not read Toaster's post? Were you only reading the posts of people who addressed questions to you or something?Yes.
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 05:56:14 pm
Jack, you just seem simply too gung ho for Day 1. While my attacks were to get you to spill the beans and let me know about you, yours were just to get me killed, because you are either overconfident ( WHICH IS A SCUMTELL. ) or scum. You may also very well be a third party, and I have my eyes on you. Nobody knows ANYTHING D1 and this is the time to ask questions, scan posts and playstyle, and think. The power roles will help us day 2, and give us some basis and some alibi before we start the debate again.Imperial Guardsman: Thank you for explaining your read. You're wrong, but at least now I know what makes you wrong. See, here's the thing. You're right that at the start of Day 1, there's an utter lack of public information. However, every post anyone makes adds information to the public's eye. Most starting stuff (RVS) is not very informative, but it is information. Attacks, like your initial one, are more information. I asked you questions. You gave information. I asked more questions. I got more info. Then Persus came in, attacked you, and you leapt away from your initial attack.
So I applied pressure. Increasing pressure, to get information. And the information I have acquired is quite alarming.
What makes you believe that my questions and eventual attacks were purely to kill you? In your reading of theory that you love to throw around, have you ever seen any references to a "pressure vote"?
PPE X ARGH ARGH ARGH ARGH ARGH ARGH: Unvote for now. Kingmaker 4 flashbacks en masse have led me to believe that I need to reevaluate. (I'm noticing, across multiple games, that there seems to be something about my votes that makes inexperienced players break down)
<readlist snipped>Flabort: That's nice and all, but can you explain these reads? I've seen your process before, but dumping a list of numbers isn't very helpful without reasons.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 11, 2014, 05:57:00 pm
It doesn't seem too bad. If Flabort is a weak investigation role like he claims, then scum will still have to decide whether that's good enough to kill or not.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:58:03 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 05:58:46 pm
No, but a pressure vote is a vote to purely cause pressure and get information.Jack, you just seem simply too gung ho for Day 1. While my attacks were to get you to spill the beans and let me know about you, yours were just to get me killed, because you are either overconfident ( WHICH IS A SCUMTELL. ) or scum. You may also very well be a third party, and I have my eyes on you. Nobody knows ANYTHING D1 and this is the time to ask questions, scan posts and playstyle, and think. The power roles will help us day 2, and give us some basis and some alibi before we start the debate again.Imperial Guardsman: Thank you for explaining your read. You're wrong, but at least now I know what makes you wrong. See, here's the thing. You're right that at the start of Day 1, there's an utter lack of public information. However, every post anyone makes adds information to the public's eye. Most starting stuff (RVS) is not very informative, but it is information. Attacks, like your initial one, are more information. I asked you questions. You gave information. I asked more questions. I got more info. Then Persus came in, attacked you, and you leapt away from your initial attack.
So I applied pressure. Increasing pressure, to get information. And the information I have acquired is quite alarming.
What makes you believe that my questions and eventual attacks were purely to kill you? In your reading of theory that you love to throw around, have you ever seen any references to a "pressure vote"?
Also, for the love of god, someone doc flabort.
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 06:03:51 pm
Between 3 and 5 in either direction is a lean (orange and pale green), and anything beyond 5 is a likelihood (red and full green).
@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
@4mask I believe that the accumulation of posts with lots of content that furthered the discussion did that for you. You have been fluctuating more than anyone else, but the overall trend has been upward.
@Jack AT as everyone posts, I keep track of my opinion of each post. This opinion swings the number up or down, into 5 distinct areas, that tell me whether I should be suspicious or not.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 06:04:53 pm
@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 06:07:23 pm
No, but a pressure vote is a vote to purely cause pressure and get information.Imperial Guardsman: A pressure vote is a vote primarily to cause pressure and get information. I never vote, outside of RVS, for someone I wouldn't accept a lynch of at the time, but my votes can still primarily be tools of pressure.
Now, would you be so kind as to actually answer the first question I asked you in that post?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 06:08:22 pm
flabort: I know. What are the reasons for your current reads on each player?The questions and votes seemed less inquisitive and more murderous.No, but a pressure vote is a vote to purely cause pressure and get information.Imperial Guardsman: A pressure vote is a vote primarily to cause pressure and get information. I never vote, outside of RVS, for someone I wouldn't accept a lynch of at the time, but my votes can still primarily be tools of pressure.
Now, would you be so kind as to actually answer the first question I asked you in that post?
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 06:10:27 pm
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 06:14:15 pm
Toaster was the first to start leaning town, because he's been quite helpful in conversation; however, he hasn't been posting much. So he's still not in the full green.
Next came NQT. Not entirely helpful as a whole, but logical and sound.
Jack, you were the next to pass +3, and it's not because of being unhelpful. You haven't done anything that's an outright town read, but you've been towny.
Persus has been absent, with not many posts, but is a low-post-high-content player, which I believe you said could be scum or town.
4mask has been a mid-high-content, high-post-count player.
Now I'm confused.@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
Previously you had called me the 3rd party you were so afraid of.
Now you want me alive.
And is "their only lead" you or me?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 06:15:28 pm
You.Now I'm confused.@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
Previously you had called me the 3rd party you were so afraid of.
Now you want me alive.
And is "their only lead" you or me?
Imperial Guardsman: I'm aggressive (though I'm having trouble seeing how my long pre-Persus set of questions could be seen as primarily murderous in intent) (could you explain in more detail?). People tend to be aggressive on this forum. Deal with it.IF I MEANT AGGRESSIVE I WOULD HAVE SAID AGGRESSIVE
Post by: zombie urist on June 11, 2014, 08:07:14 pm
Both of you are acting overtly agressive, and that is scummy.This isn't true at all.
IF I MEANT AGGRESSIVE I WOULD HAVE SAID AGGRESSIVEYou said aggressive in the post I linked above.
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortWhy are you saying this like it was a sure thing? Also "everyone else" is kindof strange considering you're asking half the players.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
You also never responded to this.Where is Tiruin, as it happens?Isn't it too early to chase lurkers?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 11, 2014, 08:15:02 pm
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortWe need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 08:17:46 pm
If you have a case against me, state your case, or forever hold your peace.Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortWe need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
Post by: Persus13 on June 11, 2014, 11:00:38 pm
You overreacted to NQT's attack is the only evidence I have against you. Otherwise you seem pretty neutral.If you have a case against me, state your case, or forever hold your peace.Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortWe need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 11:39:27 pm
Some thoughts on Imperial Guardsman: Incredibly twitchy, jumpy, flaily, LOUD, and hyperactive. Hates being attacked for his actions. Switches vote targets rapidly to whoever is attacking him. Brushed off a request for reasons for his reads by telling me to look at my own posts. Focused primarily on catching third parties, a behaviour often shown by scum that has trouble knowingly mislynching. However, IG has given somewhat reasonable reasons, for someone of his apparent level of experience, for the focus on third parties, that can basically be summarized as wanting to avoid having any alive at what would normally be LYLO. Seems to have memorized the MafiaScum and EpicMafia wikis, but lacks any clue as to how to apply the respective information and misinformation from them (good example: this misuse of Appeal to Authority (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365411#msg5365411). Requesting that two experienced players give their thoughts on major events, even if their experience is mentioned, is not an appeal to authority. It is just a request for their thoughts.). Writes largely in buzzwords (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Buzzword) (I disagree with the MafiaScum wiki about this being a scumtell. It's one of the strongest newbtells I've ever seen, but not all that meaningful when it comes to alignment).
Looking back through his previous games, this behaviour seems like his normal behaviour plus excessive sugar, caffeine, and anger. Sadly, I lean slightly towards him being town. He seems sincere in his abysmal third party hunting, and seems sincere in his reasons for doing that.
Imperial Guardsman: Why do you need flabort alive? Is it the informational nature of his role, or something else?
As of the time of my post, Imperial Guardsman has dropped into the Red. In second place is Zombie Urist again, but he's still at the yellow, where everyone started.Flabort: Pointing at me, no matter how experienced I am, does not prove that Guardsman is scum. Pointing at a theory argument of mine, especially without taking the time to apply it to the situation at hand beyond pointing at it, is not proof of Guardsman being scum.
It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory.Spoiler: Proof (click to show/hide)
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.Creating some sort of rule based somewhat on something I said is not proof of Guardsman being scum either. Besides, I can't say I agree about him not giving content. He's giving plenty of content. Terrible content, and he means little of it, but content nonetheless.
The guy's managed to get an unprecedented -11 on your scumometer, and this is all you have on him? Some generality that you haven't even backed up the applicability of in this situation?
Also, a quick question: why the semi-claim this early?
zombie urist: Guardsman said aggressive about his non-me attackers. He said "murderous" about me.IF I MEANT AGGRESSIVE I WOULD HAVE SAID AGGRESSIVEYou said aggressive in the post I linked above.
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2014, 11:49:28 pm
And he's slowly turning that rating around now.
As for why a claim this early:
Because it's that weak, I was under accusation, and also partly for reaction testing.
Post by: notquitethere on June 12, 2014, 03:58:02 am
By scumbuddy do you mean me or Flabort (your current vote target).I meant you, but neither would be particularly coherent reasons to vote. What do you think about ZU's play (even accounting for the fact he's pfp right now)?
Jiokuy
The grounds against wolf are a bit weak in my opinion.Uh huh, and what's the most useful information you've found so far? Now IG is the prime lynch candidate, do you think that's a stronger case?
But, I do agree that while an active day one may not be as useful as later days, but it is still a source of useful information.
Imperial Guardsman
and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack?What does this even mean?
ATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.Town's wincon is to defeat scum, not lynch all third parties. By focusing on 3rd parties you're making it look like you don't really care about achieving the town wincon in the most direct way.
You need him alive... but he's a third party that you're trying to lynch? Make up your mind please!@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
We need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.But you like your vote on him?
ZU
Why are you saying this like it was a sure thing? Also "everyone else" is kindof strange considering you're asking half the players.It wasn't a sure thing at all, but at the time I posted he was lynch-lead (and would have been more so if I hadn't voted Flabort) and so if no one had done anything else at that time he would have died and I wanted people's opinions on this. By 'everyone else' I only meant to indicate why I wasn't asking the other people the same question. If someone is lynched, every player is responsible for their actions that allowed it to happen. I don't want anyone to just coast through.
Sorry, I meant to say: yeah it was a bit early. I was getting a bit too enthusiastic. Still looking forward to her posting some actual content. I didn't see where you explained why you're voting me?You also never responded to this.Where is Tiruin, as it happens?Isn't it too early to chase lurkers?
Flabort
4mask wolf is no longer in the yellow. That said, he's not in the red, orange, or full green, either; he's in the light green, so I trust him right now. I don't want him to be lynched day 1. Maybe I'll change my mind on day 2 or 3, but I trust him right now.I take it you're using your numbered colour-coded spreadsheet method to determine aggregate scumminess? Have you refined your criteria since the time you were scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137849.msg5274813#msg5274813)? Only, it didn't seem to be very effective at actually picking out scum.
Jack
Sadly, I lean slightly towards him being town. He seems sincere in his abysmal third party hunting, and seems sincere in his reasons for doing that.Curious. So who do you think is a better lynch candidate at this stage?
Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 12, 2014, 05:03:37 am
I'll look at this game tomorrow.
Post by: Ottofar on June 12, 2014, 07:41:17 am
JackOttofar: Good. As a townie, which two players here would you most want on the same side as you? As a cultist?Ottofar: I remember you. Still lurky?I try not to.
As town, Jim and maybe ToonyMan, they're pretty reliable in their scumhunting. As cult, Toaster, he has a pretty good scum game, and perhaps Jiokuy, since I don't really know him, but he seems competent enough.
4maskwolf
Ottofar: Watch yourself, bud...
I read the last page after replying to Toaster, so I didn't read your post until after NQT had posted, and while the vote was similar to his, it was in no other way related to it.
Anyway, you follow the votes up by answering Toaster's question about scumminess thusly:
Okay, for the second question, how about this:WolfThis bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.
-snip-
Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?
By attacking the person who laid the first vote on yourself. It, by itself isn't too bad, but then, in your next post you FoS me, the second person voting you, and quickly follow up with a vote:
Ottofar: Watch yourself, bud...
IG, flailing, jumpiness, 3rd party hunting. I'm thinking third party here.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 12, 2014, 09:13:38 am
I'm still inclined to believe he is a misguided towny (I really hope he doesn't flip mafia, would look really bad.) Still I feel we should use our remaining time questioning other members, and lynching IG only as a default. In particular, although I may be wrong, I believe we have a few lurkers?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Jiokuy on June 12, 2014, 09:17:55 am
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 09:25:26 am
Also, D1 attacks don't have to be random.
Ugh, in-quote responses.
How is that lazy play? Because you're not really hunting scum if you're just going through the motions of participating. You're not going to catch anything D1 (or later days, really) with that method.
Quote
Jack seems like the guy who will act inno and seem inno all game and then something turns around, makes him a baddie, and fucks us, or he was bad all along. 4mask seems bluh. There is something off with him. I will be watching him.
...what?
And, there is a difference in play style between a normal maf team, a cultafia, and a pseudo cult team.
I'll give you the cult/mafia difference, but what's the difference between a team called "mafia" and a team called "cult" that follow the same rules?
Also, do you agree or disagree that someone who demonizes third parties and attempts to drive attention their way is scum?
... any reasons for these reads?Look at their posts.
Nope! Wrong. The burden of proof is on you. This crosses the line from lazy to poor play.
Nobody knows ANYTHING D1 and this is the time to ask questions, scan posts and playstyle, and think. The power roles will help us day 2, and give us some basis and some alibi before we start the debate again.
This is all sorts of wrong. The scum team knows who their partners are. Any third parties know they aren't town. Waiting for the night roles to do everything for us leads to town loss.
You might find this game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98843.0) educational. There was a D1 massclaim, and plans were concocted for the night to suss out the scum. Town lost in the end.
Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
Now this is interesting. First, no, you can't always predict what the scum team will do; you don't know what they've picked up on, or how likely they gauge a claim like Flabort's will draw protection.
Second... you need him alive? What, are you his Guardian Angel?
Spoiler: From Super 4 (click to show/hide)
NQT:
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, Flabort
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
I think it's awfully damn early to be calling it this soon. Remember what I said to you earlier? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5363418#msg5363418)
Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?
This is sort of doing the same thing, though it's not as early in the day. As for your answer.... eh, sort of. I'm honestly not sure what his alignment at this point, but he's what I call a jammer. His presence is polarizing the game, and causing a serious distraction to the rest of the scum hunting. The best cure for a jammer is a vigilante, but you can't guarantee the presence of one. The real problem is that he's an easy vote, and scum love easy votes.
Persus:
I thought victims of a flavor Cult disappeared?
I checked back and it looks like you're correct. Super6 doesn't count because the flavor never revealed bodies, but Super2 the bodies did just disappear.
Zombie Urist:
its too early to decide.
nqt
Look, I know your posts are always terse. I even see and agree with your point.
But you can do better than that. Even your follow up doesn't do enough.
Jiokuy: PPE: I'll ask you the same thing; why IG for third party?
I'm still inclined to believe he is a misguided towny (I really hope he doesn't flip mafia, would look really bad.) Still I feel we should use our remaining time questioning other members, and lynching IG only as a default. In particular, although I may be wrong, I believe we have a few lurkers?
Bad for whom?
Lord Toaster, Toonyman: As two of the most experienced players, and since this "war" is coming to a close, care to share your reads of Wolf and Guardsman.
(Don't buddy me)
IG is very hard to read. Reading him is like trying to tune a piano by ear with a vuvuzela chorus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E6ljLSOkbY) in the background. His bullheaded stubbornness and pullover of ideas from KotM that don't actually translate makes his actual alignment tough to discern. Since your post, though, he's gone from unclear to incomprehensible to insane.
4mask gave IG a fair shake before voting him for his antics. He didn't take the easy vote right away- that's a bit of a point in his favor. Overall, very slight town lean, but there's one thing that troubles me a bit...
4mask:
If you have a case against me, state your case, or forever hold your peace.Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortWe need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
Toony: can you reiterate the points behind your vote on me, por favor?
Why so much concern over the votes on you?
If you find it suspicious, then use your vote. The lynch is the weapon of the town.
Lazy isn't always scummy. Sure, scum be lazy to coast through and avoid dropping tells, but town does it too. As of this post, I'm unconvinced either way.
Flabort: Your proof in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365461#msg5365461); did you quote the wrong thing or something? It doesn't follow.
Jack:
Toaster was the first to start leaning town, because he's been quite helpful in conversation; however, he hasn't been posting much. So he's still not in the full green.
Next came NQT. Not entirely helpful as a whole, but logical and sound.
Being helpful does not mean being townie. Anyone can go and gather up information that's not actually relevant to the current game; helpful, sure, but it doesn't find scum.
Ottofar:
IG, flailing, jumpiness, 3rd party hunting. I'm thinking third party here.
That's an interesting conclusion. How do you get third party out of that?
Tiruin: My current read for you is "Wait, Tiruin is playing?"
So hey NotQuiteThere, why are you always so interested in getting the current lynch target driven?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 09:48:26 am
I'm not concerned about the votes, but it's a part of my strategy to keep votes off of me whether I'm town or scum so that they can be used in a more effective manner. If I'm town, I want those votes to be used on scum, and if I'm scum, I want them to be used on town.Toony: can you reiterate the points behind your vote on me, por favor?
Why so much concern over the votes on you?If you find it suspicious, then use your vote. The lynch is the weapon of the town.
Lazy isn't always scummy. Sure, scum be lazy to coast through and avoid dropping tells, but town does it too. As of this post, I'm unconvinced either way.
JackThis, I feel, needs a response. Is it somehow bad that I call people out on inconsistencies, weak arguments, and possible scummy behavior just because they vote for me. If I remember correctly, this is a game about finding the scum. If those scum happen to be voting for me, then I will call them out on what they do. Same as with anyone else. I didn't vote/call out Tooneyman because nothing set off my alarm bells, and he voted for me.JackOttofar: Good. As a townie, which two players here would you most want on the same side as you? As a cultist?Ottofar: I remember you. Still lurky?I try not to.
As town, Jim and maybe ToonyMan, they're pretty reliable in their scumhunting. As cult, Toaster, he has a pretty good scum game, and perhaps Jiokuy, since I don't really know him, but he seems competent enough.
4maskwolfOttofar: Watch yourself, bud...
I read the last page after replying to Toaster, so I didn't read your post until after NQT had posted, and while the vote was similar to his, it was in no other way related to it.
Anyway, you follow the votes up by answering Toaster's question about scumminess thusly:Okay, for the second question, how about this:WolfThis bullshit here. NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway. On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.
-snip-
Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?
By attacking the person who laid the first vote on yourself. It, by itself isn't too bad, but then, in your next post you FoS me, the second person voting you, and quickly follow up with a vote:
Also, I checked the timestamps on the posts and I can believe you were in the middle of typing your post when NQT posted. That's why I unvoted without waiting for a response.
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2014, 09:55:01 am
Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?It seems like Imperial Guardsmen is always the D1 lynch, as his play style is very different and he always seems scummy, however, I was impressed by his Prince Mafia play recently, so his play here after I unvoted him was very surprising. I don't have much to say besides what Jack already said (his paragraph on Imperial took the words out of my mouth). I'd rather scumhunt elsewhere for the moment, but if there's no alternative candidate that I find more scummy, then I'd be willing to have Imperial lynched, especially as I agree that he's a possible third party.
Imperial:
The questions and votes seemed less inquisitive and more murderous.You haven't seen any murderous votes yet. I'd say that will happen when Jim starts actually playing.
Also, you never answer my question to explain your post attacking 4maskwolf.
Jiokuy:
I'm still inclined to believe he is a misguided towny (I really hope he doesn't flip mafia, would look really bad.) Still I feel we should use our remaining time questioning other members, and lynching IG only as a default. In particular, although I may be wrong, I believe we have a few lurkers?Do you mind further explaining the bolded part?
Also, Tiruin has had net/RL issues, and Jim said he wouldn't be able to play until today or so, so that's why they haven't posted anything big on content.
I doubt he is a cult leader, but he might be a serial killer.Cult leaders are generally scum, not third party in Supernatural games. I highly recommend you read all the previous games to get a better understanding if you have not already.
Flabort:'
Persus: Yes, I have played with 3Ps before, but rarely have they ever actually been a major threat or player in the games I've played.Well, third parties are dangerous, although Imperial does seem to be overly concerned about them.
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.
IG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.
And so instead of citing actual content from IG to back up your reasons, you cite... a post from two more experienced players? That's definitely where I'd apply the Misuse of authority scumtell.
And lots of low content posts build up over time. It's also how someone plays, and if there's one thing I really dislike it is people trying to lynch someone based on playstyle.
Also, I'd like to echo NQT's concern about how accurate your scoring method is. How do you determine the score a post receives? DO you account for meta, or context? Have you tried doing the scoring method to a finished game and then compared the scores with flips?
Finally, why are you roleclaiming (albeit slightly) this early? There's no real point from a town point of view, as it doesn't really add anything to your argument while it makes you more likely to be NKed.
ZU: Who are you most suspicious of right now? Least suspicious of? Opinion on NQT, since last I checked you are voting him.
NQT: I want you to weigh in on your own question about Imperial and hear more thoughts and reads from you on people. You seem keen on asking other people what they think of lynching.
PPE: Toaster deals with a lot of the same stuff I did, ah well.
Toaster:
Flabort: Your proof in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365461#msg5365461); did you quote the wrong thing or something? It doesn't follow.I asked him the same question, and he said:
quote author=flabort link=topic=139118.msg5365521#msg5365521 date=1402526467]
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.
[/quote]
PPE: Ugh, I'll read 4maskwolf later.
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2014, 09:57:42 am
Toaster:
Flabort: Your proof in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365461#msg5365461); did you quote the wrong thing or something? It doesn't follow.I asked him the same question, and he said:
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 12, 2014, 10:10:35 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 12, 2014, 10:11:27 am
Does that all make sense? I'm not saying 'hey everyone, let's lynch such and such', I'm saying 'such and such is looking like they might be lynched, and if they are then you are partly culpable for letting it happen so what are your reasons?'
Ottofar, you've been quite narrowly focused. What do you think of Persus13's play so far?
Jiokuy, I gather you're slow to commit to a vote. Who's it looking like you'll go for at this moment?
Wolf, I'd hardly say I was displaying "inconsistencies, weak arguments, and possible scummy behavior". I wanted you to contribute and engage with people. You say you want to find "actual scum", well, you do that by interacting with the people that might be actually scum.
Persus
NQT: I want you to weigh in on your own question about Imperial and hear more thoughts and reads from you on people. You seem keen on asking other people what they think of lynching.Read my explanation to toaster above. Before the day ends I'm intending to reread the thread and give my full reads on all players. But here's how I see things so far:
Imperial is behaving irrationally. This doesn't mean he's necessarily scum but it does mean he's unhelpful to town.
Wolf was super defensive over being asked to do some work rather than just sit back. Now he seems to be saying he'd like to scum hunt, I'd like to see this. Does this make him scum? Well, that could just be his attitude. I'll need to reread.
Jim and Tiruin have yet to arrive due to real life but I'm worried about scum coasting due to inactivity, so I hope to hear more from them before the day ends.
Flabort I'd like to hear more from about his scoring stuff, as I know from experience it's easy for scum to hide behind a veneer of false objectivity. I've done it myself in the past.
Zombie Urist is mostly not around but seems to be weakly pursuing a complete non-case. I'm looking forward to his next response.
Everyone else has been fairly reasonable, I'd like to hear more of course, and I hope a reread will give me some fresh insight.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 10:58:03 am
Wolf, I'd hardly say I was displaying "inconsistencies, weak arguments, and possible scummy behavior". I wanted you to contribute and engage with people. You say you want to find "actual scum", well, you do that by interacting with the people that might be actually scum.Believe what you will, and I am interacting with people out there.
Also, your argument came down to basically "well, you need to ferret out people" as your reason to vote me. That's pretty weak, in my book.
You don't think that I'm scumhunting? Reread the thread is all I can say to you.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 12, 2014, 11:04:47 am
4maskwolf: Ottofar, ToonyMan
flabort: Imperial Guardsman, notquitethere
Imperial Guardsman: flabort
Jiokuy: Persus13
notquitethere: Toaster, zombie urist
Day ends ~4PM Pacific Friday
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:10:10 am
Imperial Guardsman: Why do you need flabort alive? Is it the informational nature of his role, or something else?Something else.
UnvoteATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.Town's wincon is to defeat scum, not lynch all third parties. By focusing on 3rd parties you're making it look like you don't really care about achieving the town wincon in the most direct way.You need him alive... but he's a third party that you're trying to lynch? Make up your mind please!@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
Alright, I guess you all are getting the hints and piecing it all together. I'm a third party, specifically our new element ( I think ). The D1 attacks were to keep heat off of others ( I was assuming flabort was town at that point ). My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose. The focus on third parties was to keep me safe from scum and vigs, etc. There it all is. Look at that how you will and consider it how you will.
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 11:24:06 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:25:12 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:26:33 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 11:27:51 am
Lolz you're funny. This is actually hysterical. I'm dying laughing right now.Imperial Guardsman: Why do you need flabort alive? Is it the informational nature of his role, or something else?Something else.UnvoteATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.Town's wincon is to defeat scum, not lynch all third parties. By focusing on 3rd parties you're making it look like you don't really care about achieving the town wincon in the most direct way.You need him alive... but he's a third party that you're trying to lynch? Make up your mind please!@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
Alright, I guess you all are getting the hints and piecing it all together. I'm a third party, specifically our new element ( I think ). The D1 attacks were to keep heat off of others ( I was assuming flabort was town at that point ). My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose. The focus on third parties was to keep me safe from scum and vigs, etc. There it all is. Look at that how you will and consider it how you will.
Because if you knew that you needed Flabort to live, then you wouldn't have voted for him in the first place, because you would have already known and not waited for a claim. And if you didn't know that you needed Flabort alive, then there was no way his claim was sufficient for you to determine that he was the one who needed to stay alive. Assuming you are telling the truth, which I doubt your vote for him was frankly ridiculous, and really risky. If your wincon truly relies on him staying alive, then you would never have taken a risk like that, no matter what. Because what if we had lynched him. You would have been the one to lose yourself the game. I've seen you play this game often enough to know that you wouldn't take a risk like that.
I'm actually leaning towards scum right now for you, with that statement. It's just too ridiculous. You're associating yourself with Flabort too much. And on the off chance that it is true, you should NEVER have claimed that, because now if you start siding with the town the scum can just off your buddy and remove you from the game.
Post by: notquitethere on June 12, 2014, 11:28:50 am
You don't think that I'm scumhunting? Reread the thread is all I can say to you.Yeah, you're doing alright now (better than a lot of players in any case), but that vote was way back at the beginning when you'd yet to do anything and your response was that you didn't need to interact with everyone. You've still got this super-defensiveness which only makes me more suspicious. I put a legitimate pressure vote on you at the beginning and you overreacted. I still find that interesting.
Imperial Guardsman
Alright, I guess you all are getting the hints and piecing it all together. I'm a third party, specifically our new element ( I think ). The D1 attacks were to keep heat off of others ( I was assuming flabort was town at that point ). My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose. The focus on third parties was to keep me safe from scum and vigs, etc. There it all is. Look at that how you will and consider it how you will.Well this begins to make a bit more sense. Is your ability harmful to town?
Can anyone else shine some light on this? Flabort?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:34:08 am
Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Lolz you're funny. This is actually hysterical. I'm dying laughing right now.Imperial Guardsman: Why do you need flabort alive? Is it the informational nature of his role, or something else?Something else.UnvoteATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.Town's wincon is to defeat scum, not lynch all third parties. By focusing on 3rd parties you're making it look like you don't really care about achieving the town wincon in the most direct way.You need him alive... but he's a third party that you're trying to lynch? Make up your mind please!@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.
Alright, I guess you all are getting the hints and piecing it all together. I'm a third party, specifically our new element ( I think ). The D1 attacks were to keep heat off of others ( I was assuming flabort was town at that point ). My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose. The focus on third parties was to keep me safe from scum and vigs, etc. There it all is. Look at that how you will and consider it how you will.
Because if you knew that you needed Flabort to live, then you wouldn't have voted for him in the first place, because you would have already known and not waited for a claim. And if you didn't know that you needed Flabort alive, then there was no way his claim was sufficient for you to determine that he was the one who needed to stay alive. Assuming you are telling the truth, which I doubt your vote for him was frankly ridiculous, and really risky. If your wincon truly relies on him staying alive, then you would never have taken a risk like that, no matter what. Because what if we had lynched him. You would have been the one to lose yourself the game. I've seen you play this game often enough to know that you wouldn't take a risk like that.
I'm actually leaning towards scum right now for you, with that statement. It's just too ridiculous. You're associating yourself with Flabort too much. And on the off chance that it is true, you should NEVER have claimed that, because now if you start siding with the town the scum can just off your buddy and remove you from the game.
Imperial GuardsmanIts unstable magicks. That is all.Alright, I guess you all are getting the hints and piecing it all together. I'm a third party, specifically our new element ( I think ). The D1 attacks were to keep heat off of others ( I was assuming flabort was town at that point ). My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose. The focus on third parties was to keep me safe from scum and vigs, etc. There it all is. Look at that how you will and consider it how you will.Well this begins to make a bit more sense. Is your ability harmful to town?
Can anyone else shine some light on this? Flabort?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 11:35:27 am
WolfI treat every vote on me as a lynch vote, and responded accordingly. I attacked you for having no case against me, as I would for anyone who attempted a lynch vote on me without a strong case.You don't think that I'm scumhunting? Reread the thread is all I can say to you.Yeah, you're doing alright now (better than a lot of players in any case), but that vote was way back at the beginning when you'd yet to do anything and your response was that you didn't need to interact with everyone. You've still got this super-defensiveness which only makes me more suspicious. I put a legitimate pressure vote on you at the beginning and you overreacted. I still find that interesting.
PPE:
Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:36:40 am
PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 11:37:05 am
And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:38:15 am
EBWOP: by lynch vote, NQT, I meant not a pressure or random vote, but an actual intention to get me lynched. Just to clarify.Circumstances being that I want flabort alive and him dying would warrant a want of revenge?And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 11:40:09 am
I still call bullcrap on this story. How did you know that it was Flabort you wanted to protect, and if you did know from the start, why in all flavor of damnation did you start a full-on broadside against him?EBWOP: by lynch vote, NQT, I meant not a pressure or random vote, but an actual intention to get me lynched. Just to clarify.Circumstances being that I want flabort alive and him dying would warrant a want of revenge?And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:50:15 am
4maskwolf, if you wont bother to listen, you are endangering my wincon, and by extension, the towns wincon. I started a broadside against nearly everybody, with accusations of being a third, to make me un noticed by vigs, scum, etc. Flabort was part of it. Who would have joined on the wagon I had flabort on at the time? NOONE.I still call bullcrap on this story. How did you know that it was Flabort you wanted to protect, and if you did know from the start, why in all flavor of damnation did you start a full-on broadside against him?EBWOP: by lynch vote, NQT, I meant not a pressure or random vote, but an actual intention to get me lynched. Just to clarify.Circumstances being that I want flabort alive and him dying would warrant a want of revenge?And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: Ottofar on June 12, 2014, 11:50:50 am
Toaster, I had the feeling he was covering for himself, in the way "I'm looking for third parties, I can't be one." And he just didn't feel like scum to me.
NQT, Persus is leaning town to me, but I'ven't been focusing on him. Will look into him better once I get home.
PFP
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 11:53:16 am
Lolz you are really funny. I don't even have a vote on you and you are flipping out and voting me. On no grounds other than picking apart your story. I have not voted for you or Flabort, and as such am not, in fact, endangering your wincon. I am merely asking questions and stating my doubts. You, on the other hand, are GRAVELY overreacting to the slightest challenge. You still haven't answered my question about how you know that Flabort is the one you are supposed to protect.4maskwolf, if you wont bother to listen, you are endangering my wincon, and by extension, the towns wincon. I started a broadside against nearly everybody, with accusations of being a third, to make me un noticed by vigs, scum, etc. Flabort was part of it. Who would have joined on the wagon I had flabort on at the time? NOONE.I still call bullcrap on this story. How did you know that it was Flabort you wanted to protect, and if you did know from the start, why in all flavor of damnation did you start a full-on broadside against him?EBWOP: by lynch vote, NQT, I meant not a pressure or random vote, but an actual intention to get me lynched. Just to clarify.Circumstances being that I want flabort alive and him dying would warrant a want of revenge?And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: Ottofar on June 12, 2014, 11:54:01 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 11:58:05 am
Unvote 4mask, vote IG. Fullclaim, please. What is the power?A revive, but its 50 percent. If it fails, apparently Bad Things happen. I also am not allowed to use it on flabort for obvious reasons.
Toaster, I had the feeling he was covering for himself, in the way "I'm looking for third parties, I can't be one." And he just didn't feel like scum to me.
NQT, Persus is leaning town to me, but I'ven't been focusing on him. Will look into him better once I get home.
PFP
IG, if you want not to get lynched you're gonna play with the town, not to your own wincon.My wincon is the towns wincon, and vice versa. Read back.
Because my wincon pretty much says HEY MAN FLABORT THE TOWNIE AND YOU MUST SURVIVE TO THE ENDLolz you are really funny. I don't even have a vote on you and you are flipping out and voting me. On no grounds other than picking apart your story. I have not voted for you or Flabort, and as such am not, in fact, endangering your wincon. I am merely asking questions and stating my doubts. You, on the other hand, are GRAVELY overreacting to the slightest challenge. You still haven't answered my question about how you know that Flabort is the one you are supposed to protect.4maskwolf, if you wont bother to listen, you are endangering my wincon, and by extension, the towns wincon. I started a broadside against nearly everybody, with accusations of being a third, to make me un noticed by vigs, scum, etc. Flabort was part of it. Who would have joined on the wagon I had flabort on at the time? NOONE.I still call bullcrap on this story. How did you know that it was Flabort you wanted to protect, and if you did know from the start, why in all flavor of damnation did you start a full-on broadside against him?EBWOP: by lynch vote, NQT, I meant not a pressure or random vote, but an actual intention to get me lynched. Just to clarify.Circumstances being that I want flabort alive and him dying would warrant a want of revenge?And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:00:19 pm
Thank you for at least reading the question, if not any of the other words in the statement I made. Seeing as how you are panicking and voting me for asking questions, I'm inclined to believe that you are, in fact, not telling the whole truth. So tell me, why did you vote Flabort to begin with. Accusing him of being a third with absolutely no evidence was your grounds for the vote, I believe.Unvote 4mask, vote IG. Fullclaim, please. What is the power?A revive, but its 50 percent. If it fails, apparently Bad Things happen. I also am not allowed to use it on flabort for obvious reasons.
Toaster, I had the feeling he was covering for himself, in the way "I'm looking for third parties, I can't be one." And he just didn't feel like scum to me.
NQT, Persus is leaning town to me, but I'ven't been focusing on him. Will look into him better once I get home.
PFPIG, if you want not to get lynched you're gonna play with the town, not to your own wincon.My wincon is the towns wincon, and vice versa. Read back.Because my wincon pretty much says HEY MAN FLABORT THE TOWNIE AND YOU MUST SURVIVE TO THE ENDLolz you are really funny. I don't even have a vote on you and you are flipping out and voting me. On no grounds other than picking apart your story. I have not voted for you or Flabort, and as such am not, in fact, endangering your wincon. I am merely asking questions and stating my doubts. You, on the other hand, are GRAVELY overreacting to the slightest challenge. You still haven't answered my question about how you know that Flabort is the one you are supposed to protect.4maskwolf, if you wont bother to listen, you are endangering my wincon, and by extension, the towns wincon. I started a broadside against nearly everybody, with accusations of being a third, to make me un noticed by vigs, scum, etc. Flabort was part of it. Who would have joined on the wagon I had flabort on at the time? NOONE.I still call bullcrap on this story. How did you know that it was Flabort you wanted to protect, and if you did know from the start, why in all flavor of damnation did you start a full-on broadside against him?EBWOP: by lynch vote, NQT, I meant not a pressure or random vote, but an actual intention to get me lynched. Just to clarify.Circumstances being that I want flabort alive and him dying would warrant a want of revenge?And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:05:44 pm
I was thinking Hey ill just random vote people and pretend hunt for thirds so I dont die and ill vote flabort because absolutely nobody will get on his bw like i did with everyone else and i dont think he will claim or endanger himselfThank you for at least reading the question, if not any of the other words in the statement I made. Seeing as how you are panicking and voting me for asking questions, I'm inclined to believe that you are, in fact, not telling the whole truth. So tell me, why did you vote Flabort to begin with. Accusing him of being a third with absolutely no evidence was your grounds for the vote, I believe.Unvote 4mask, vote IG. Fullclaim, please. What is the power?A revive, but its 50 percent. If it fails, apparently Bad Things happen. I also am not allowed to use it on flabort for obvious reasons.
Toaster, I had the feeling he was covering for himself, in the way "I'm looking for third parties, I can't be one." And he just didn't feel like scum to me.
NQT, Persus is leaning town to me, but I'ven't been focusing on him. Will look into him better once I get home.
PFPIG, if you want not to get lynched you're gonna play with the town, not to your own wincon.My wincon is the towns wincon, and vice versa. Read back.Because my wincon pretty much says HEY MAN FLABORT THE TOWNIE AND YOU MUST SURVIVE TO THE ENDLolz you are really funny. I don't even have a vote on you and you are flipping out and voting me. On no grounds other than picking apart your story. I have not voted for you or Flabort, and as such am not, in fact, endangering your wincon. I am merely asking questions and stating my doubts. You, on the other hand, are GRAVELY overreacting to the slightest challenge. You still haven't answered my question about how you know that Flabort is the one you are supposed to protect.4maskwolf, if you wont bother to listen, you are endangering my wincon, and by extension, the towns wincon. I started a broadside against nearly everybody, with accusations of being a third, to make me un noticed by vigs, scum, etc. Flabort was part of it. Who would have joined on the wagon I had flabort on at the time? NOONE.I still call bullcrap on this story. How did you know that it was Flabort you wanted to protect, and if you did know from the start, why in all flavor of damnation did you start a full-on broadside against him?EBWOP: by lynch vote, NQT, I meant not a pressure or random vote, but an actual intention to get me lynched. Just to clarify.Circumstances being that I want flabort alive and him dying would warrant a want of revenge?And the circumstances are?PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 12:06:33 pm
Forgive me for my late notice.
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 12:06:49 pm
My wincon is the towns wincon, and vice versa. Read back.
Oh really?
My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose.
This is emphatically not a town wincon. Make up your mind which it is.
4mask: Actually, I don't see an issue at all with his Flabort vote. This isn't a hammer game, so it's not like he didn't have plenty of time to remove it. Plus, it provides a bit of distancing if he didn't want to have the connection known.
Flabort: Do you have any knowledge of this?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:08:52 pm
Imperial Guardsman:Flabort is townMy wincon is the towns wincon, and vice versa. Read back.
Oh really?My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose.
This is emphatically not a town wincon. Make up your mind which it is.
4mask: Actually, I don't see an issue at all with his Flabort vote. This isn't a hammer game, so it's not like he didn't have plenty of time to remove it. Plus, it provides a bit of distancing if he didn't want to have the connection known.
Flabort: Do you have any knowledge of this?
I win if flabort and I live
therefore i can townside as a third
TADA
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:09:56 pm
I'd...this is the first time in my history that I'd have to ask for a tentative replacement. RL stuffs aren't going down well and I am reluctant to say any reason...moreso due to fear of the unknown.It's fine, Tiruin. Hope RL things get better!
Forgive me for my late notice.
4mask: Actually, I don't see an issue at all with his Flabort vote. This isn't a hammer game, so it's not like he didn't have plenty of time to remove it. Plus, it provides a bit of distancing if he didn't want to have the connection known.Meh. I suppose. But calling your third-party partner out on something, in a way that seems to be trying to achieve a lynch, strikes me as rather silly behavior. Yes, I know Flabort is town, at least according to IG, but that doesn't change the point I am making: don't endanger your wincon.
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 12:10:59 pm
I'm still playing though ._.
@IG: That is not a town wincon. That is like a brother-something something tied wincon.
But not a town wincon.
Hello third-party.
...I doubt it. :-\I'd...this is the first time in my history that I'd have to ask for a tentative replacement. RL stuffs aren't going down well and I am reluctant to say any reason...moreso due to fear of the unknown.It's fine, Tiruin. Hope RL things get better!
Forgive me for my late notice.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:13:07 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:14:08 pm
*cough*I win if a ( supposed ) townie and I live to the end. Therefore I can win ALONGSIDE their wincon is what I mean.
I'm still playing though ._.
@IG: That is not a town wincon. That is like a brother-something something tied wincon.
But not a town wincon.
Hello third-party.
Also, just a note IG, don't play like you are as a third party in the future, you are drawing WAY too much attention to yourself. If you have a revive, as you claim, the scum might off you tonight, because since you appear to want to townside they don't want a townsided person with that kind of power. Had you played it safer, you wouldn't have had to claim at all. Just saying.Whos to say the scum cant just convert me or keep me roleblocked? Also, its a 50 percent revive, and if it fails, apparently Bad Things happen.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:14:59 pm
Do you want that to happen?*cough*I win if a ( supposed ) townie and I live to the end. Therefore I can win ALONGSIDE their wincon is what I mean.
I'm still playing though ._.
@IG: That is not a town wincon. That is like a brother-something something tied wincon.
But not a town wincon.
Hello third-party.Also, just a note IG, don't play like you are as a third party in the future, you are drawing WAY too much attention to yourself. If you have a revive, as you claim, the scum might off you tonight, because since you appear to want to townside they don't want a townsided person with that kind of power. Had you played it safer, you wouldn't have had to claim at all. Just saying.Whos to say the scum cant just convert me or keep me roleblocked? Also, its a 50 percent revive, and if it fails, apparently Bad Things happen.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:17:08 pm
That would suck if it did but I doubt that the scum would kill me if they had another method to keep me down.Do you want that to happen?*cough*I win if a ( supposed ) townie and I live to the end. Therefore I can win ALONGSIDE their wincon is what I mean.
I'm still playing though ._.
@IG: That is not a town wincon. That is like a brother-something something tied wincon.
But not a town wincon.
Hello third-party.Also, just a note IG, don't play like you are as a third party in the future, you are drawing WAY too much attention to yourself. If you have a revive, as you claim, the scum might off you tonight, because since you appear to want to townside they don't want a townsided person with that kind of power. Had you played it safer, you wouldn't have had to claim at all. Just saying.Whos to say the scum cant just convert me or keep me roleblocked? Also, its a 50 percent revive, and if it fails, apparently Bad Things happen.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 12, 2014, 12:19:08 pm
4maskwolf: Imperial Guardsman, ToonyMan
flabort: notquitethere
Imperial Guardsman: flabort, Ottofar
Jiokuy: Persus13
notquitethere: Toaster, zombie urist
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Friday
Tiruin has requested a replacement
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:19:28 pm
Meh. Point taken.That would suck if it did but I doubt that the scum would kill me if they had another method to keep me down.Do you want that to happen?*cough*I win if a ( supposed ) townie and I live to the end. Therefore I can win ALONGSIDE their wincon is what I mean.
I'm still playing though ._.
@IG: That is not a town wincon. That is like a brother-something something tied wincon.
But not a town wincon.
Hello third-party.Also, just a note IG, don't play like you are as a third party in the future, you are drawing WAY too much attention to yourself. If you have a revive, as you claim, the scum might off you tonight, because since you appear to want to townside they don't want a townsided person with that kind of power. Had you played it safer, you wouldn't have had to claim at all. Just saying.Whos to say the scum cant just convert me or keep me roleblocked? Also, its a 50 percent revive, and if it fails, apparently Bad Things happen.
Now, on to a bigger point: What reason do you have for voting me? Your stated reason was "endangering my wincon", but I was simply asking questions: there was no vote and no direct accusations against either of you, simply an expression of doubt as to your claim. You're gonna have to come up with a better excuse for that vote, bud.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:20:29 pm
I am explaining as much as I can without directly quoting my PM and you call me a flat out liar.Meh. Point taken.That would suck if it did but I doubt that the scum would kill me if they had another method to keep me down.Do you want that to happen?*cough*I win if a ( supposed ) townie and I live to the end. Therefore I can win ALONGSIDE their wincon is what I mean.
I'm still playing though ._.
@IG: That is not a town wincon. That is like a brother-something something tied wincon.
But not a town wincon.
Hello third-party.Also, just a note IG, don't play like you are as a third party in the future, you are drawing WAY too much attention to yourself. If you have a revive, as you claim, the scum might off you tonight, because since you appear to want to townside they don't want a townsided person with that kind of power. Had you played it safer, you wouldn't have had to claim at all. Just saying.Whos to say the scum cant just convert me or keep me roleblocked? Also, its a 50 percent revive, and if it fails, apparently Bad Things happen.
Now, on to a bigger point: What reason do you have for voting me? Your stated reason was "endangering my wincon", but I was simply asking questions: there was no vote and no direct accusations against either of you, simply an expression of doubt as to your claim. You're gonna have to come up with a better excuse for that vote, bud.
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2014, 12:21:09 pm
Not sure what to think about it. I can see that being possible, but would Meph make a third-party priest role? Like 4maskwolf, I'm not sure if that is the whole truth.
4maskwolf
4mask: Actually, I don't see an issue at all with his Flabort vote. This isn't a hammer game, so it's not like he didn't have plenty of time to remove it. Plus, it provides a bit of distancing if he didn't want to have the connection known.Meh. I suppose. But calling your third-party partner out on something, in a way that seems to be trying to achieve a lynch, strikes me as rather silly behavior. Yes, I know Flabort is town, at least according to IG, but that doesn't change the point I am making: don't endanger your wincon.
-snip-Lolz you are really funny. I don't even have a vote on you and you are flipping out and voting me. On no grounds other than picking apart your story. I have not voted for you or Flabort, and as such am not, in fact, endangering your wincon. I am merely asking questions and stating my doubts. You, on the other hand, are GRAVELY overreacting to the slightest challenge. You still haven't answered my question about how you know that Flabort is the one you are supposed to protect.
I think the reasons I've found you scummy so far this game mainly stem from you placing a much higher value on a vote, (especially a D1 vote) than I do. Also, why are you so surprised at IG's vote on you when you're outright attacking his case and completely dismissing it before you said that?-snip-I treat every vote on me as a lynch vote, and responded accordingly. I attacked you for having no case against me, as I would for anyone who attempted a lynch vote on me without a strong case.
PPE: "Warning - while you were typing 8 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post"
Holy mother of God.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:23:03 pm
I am entitled to my doubts. Is that your only reason for the vote?I am explaining as much as I can without directly quoting my PM and you call me a flat out liar.Meh. Point taken.That would suck if it did but I doubt that the scum would kill me if they had another method to keep me down.Do you want that to happen?*cough*I win if a ( supposed ) townie and I live to the end. Therefore I can win ALONGSIDE their wincon is what I mean.
I'm still playing though ._.
@IG: That is not a town wincon. That is like a brother-something something tied wincon.
But not a town wincon.
Hello third-party.Also, just a note IG, don't play like you are as a third party in the future, you are drawing WAY too much attention to yourself. If you have a revive, as you claim, the scum might off you tonight, because since you appear to want to townside they don't want a townsided person with that kind of power. Had you played it safer, you wouldn't have had to claim at all. Just saying.Whos to say the scum cant just convert me or keep me roleblocked? Also, its a 50 percent revive, and if it fails, apparently Bad Things happen.
Now, on to a bigger point: What reason do you have for voting me? Your stated reason was "endangering my wincon", but I was simply asking questions: there was no vote and no direct accusations against either of you, simply an expression of doubt as to your claim. You're gonna have to come up with a better excuse for that vote, bud.
PPE:
So IG is claiming a third party priest role?I'm not surprised, I'm merely curious, because he's trying awfully hard to get me off his case when I don't even have a vote on him right now. Nor was I planning to unless he slipped up, which he didn't. He greatly overreacted to being put under pressure and questioned in his claims.
Not sure what to think about it. I can see that being possible, but would Meph make a third-party priest role? Like 4maskwolf, I'm not sure if that is the whole truth.
4maskwolf4mask: Actually, I don't see an issue at all with his Flabort vote. This isn't a hammer game, so it's not like he didn't have plenty of time to remove it. Plus, it provides a bit of distancing if he didn't want to have the connection known.Meh. I suppose. But calling your third-party partner out on something, in a way that seems to be trying to achieve a lynch, strikes me as rather silly behavior. Yes, I know Flabort is town, at least according to IG, but that doesn't change the point I am making: don't endanger your wincon.-snip-Lolz you are really funny. I don't even have a vote on you and you are flipping out and voting me. On no grounds other than picking apart your story. I have not voted for you or Flabort, and as such am not, in fact, endangering your wincon. I am merely asking questions and stating my doubts. You, on the other hand, are GRAVELY overreacting to the slightest challenge. You still haven't answered my question about how you know that Flabort is the one you are supposed to protect.I think the reasons I've found you scummy so far this game mainly stem from you placing a much higher value on a vote, (especially a D1 vote) than I do. Also, why are you so surprised at IG's vote on you when you're outright attacking his case and completely dismissing it before you said that?-snip-I treat every vote on me as a lynch vote, and responded accordingly. I attacked you for having no case against me, as I would for anyone who attempted a lynch vote on me without a strong case.
PPE: "Warning - while you were typing 8 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post"
Holy mother of God.
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2014, 12:25:17 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 12:26:36 pm
Flabort is town
I win if flabort and I live
therefore i can townside as a third
TADA
You *can*. Problem is that no matter how you phrase it, you're a survivor variant, and survivors can just as easily (and in fact, more effectively) side with the scum team. Think of it this way- the scum team can just hold a kill against your head and threaten to end you unless you vote with them. Thankfully this isn't an open PM game or they'd probably already be doing that.
Quick post: Please, please cut down the quotes. Please.
I agree with this statement.
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2014, 12:33:31 pm
Quick post: Please, please cut down the quotes. Please.I did my best to try.
4maskwolf:
Next time can you only include the relevant sentence or so you responded too? I had to spend far longer figuring out what you were referring to then necessary.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:35:20 pm
I am entitled to my doubts. Is that your only reason for the vote?Its less Hmm, IG, I doubt that and more like YOU ARE A LIAR AND I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING I LAUGH AT YOU VOTE IG
IG:Yes, there IS that possibility. But I know the doctors are watching me and flabort.Flabort is townYou *can*. Problem is that no matter how you phrase it, you're a survivor variant, and survivors can just as easily (and in fact, more effectively) side with the scum team. Think of it this way- the scum team can just hold a kill against your head and threaten to end you unless you vote with them. Thankfully this isn't an open PM game or they'd probably already be doing that.
I win if flabort and I live
therefore i can townside as a third
TADA
RIGHT?
RIGHT?!
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 12:37:30 pm
Learn to -snip-, people >_>
Spoiler: Answers to all questions to me (click to show/hide)
This is biased :IAs only player was an outlier there was almost no variation. Even high post players like Tiruin don't post as much when they're scum.but more generally scum are almost never the most frequent posters (last year, by my count, only one game had scum as the most frequent poster)Did you ever analyze if this varied by player? (As in high-average post count players versus low average post count players)
I do post much when I'm scum--and to punch that opinion in the fess, I was once top poster as scum in a game before.
RL just punches my face back I:
Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, FlabortI've checked on that matter and...seriously? Lynching him because 'I'ma relaaax and no D1, I hate you'.
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.
...
Err, while that would seem like scum making less of himself, I verily doubt that its in 4mask's personality/character to be like that, regarding alignment.
He's just grumpy at times. :v
So lynching someone on the single quotation marks above? No. It's weak.
I mean tell me how you're going to gain something by such a case as that? Explain to me how in the world one's attitude as such equals them as scum?
I'll tell you of one guy I know who was like that: NativeForeigner (I miss you dude). He does that, but he does that both as town or as scum that no manner of statistics can bias the concluding results on where he's coming from if he's like that. Reliance on powerroles is the best reason I can say on why you'd want to lynch 'em (or on why his play is like that :v)
Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?{You sound like a coroner. Teehee~}
...I'm cool :v but not with that. Judging by recent note (and yeah, this answer is tinged by that idea that he's third-party now), I can say that there are only two major paths into insight with IG. Assume he's Third-party or scum.
In the manner of wincon processing--there's always that chance that in a game of partnership (ie Mafia buddies/Mason buddies or third-party partyers), there will be risks played and lies uttered to conceal information--IG has made a half-claim, as seen by his wincon, and a worm-on-the-hook-on-the-fishing-rod claim pertaining to his 50% thingy. As far as my notes go in knowing IG, he does that thing wherein he puts vague addendums to his claims in order to glean information or in the least, focus on reactions from others--lesser be malevolent intent.
I'm weighing on third-party there, but time will tell. Though my weighing is pretty much more solid than my reads of everyone here (and dear goodness did I skim >_> go self. <_<)
What did I say about etiquette? :II am entitled to my doubts. Is that your only reason for the vote?Its less Hmm, IG, I doubt that and more like YOU ARE A LIAR AND I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING I LAUGH AT YOU VOTE IG
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 12:40:57 pm
IG:Yes, there IS that possibility. But I know the doctors are watching me and flabort.Flabort is townYou *can*. Problem is that no matter how you phrase it, you're a survivor variant, and survivors can just as easily (and in fact, more effectively) side with the scum team. Think of it this way- the scum team can just hold a kill against your head and threaten to end you unless you vote with them. Thankfully this isn't an open PM game or they'd probably already be doing that.
I win if flabort and I live
therefore i can townside as a third
TADA
RIGHT?
RIGHT?!
You honestly think any protection roles are going to waste any time on you? Really? Really?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:42:53 pm
Imperial Guardsman:YesIG:Yes, there IS that possibility. But I know the doctors are watching me and flabort.Flabort is townYou *can*. Problem is that no matter how you phrase it, you're a survivor variant, and survivors can just as easily (and in fact, more effectively) side with the scum team. Think of it this way- the scum team can just hold a kill against your head and threaten to end you unless you vote with them. Thankfully this isn't an open PM game or they'd probably already be doing that.
I win if flabort and I live
therefore i can townside as a third
TADA
RIGHT?
RIGHT?!
You honestly think any protection roles are going to waste any time on you? Really? Really?
Dont protect the priest who is entirely obligated ( at this time ) to townside
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 12:44:51 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:45:40 pm
To clarify, I didn't call you a liar, I said that I didn't believe your story:I am entitled to my doubts. Is that your only reason for the vote?Its less Hmm, IG, I doubt that and more like YOU ARE A LIAR AND I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING I LAUGH AT YOU VOTE IG
I still call bullcrap on this story. How did you know that it was Flabort you wanted to protect, and if you did know from the start, why in all flavor of damnation did you start a full-on broadside against him?
Assuming you are telling the truth, which I doubtYes, I said I didn't believe you. I was pressuring you, seeing how you cracked.
And I did chuckle at your vote, because it was a defensive vote in the extreme. However, I'm not voting you because I actually do think now that you are a third party and are just overreacting.
YesWhen there are plenty of other power roles out there, no, you aren't necessarily entitled to a protection from any town guard types.
Dont protect the priest who is entirely obligated ( at this time ) to townside
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 12:46:20 pm
You're awfully assumptive of the goodwill you've fostered. If I was a doc, I wouldn't protect you. If I was a vig, I'd probably shoot you. In fact, I'm almost certainly going to vote you; I just want to hear from Flabort first.
On the other hand, if I was a guard, I might lock you in.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:48:33 pm
And I did chuckle at your vote, because it was a defensive vote in the extreme. However, I'm not voting you because I actually do think now that you are a third party and are just overreacting.Thank you! All I wanted you to actually realize.
...Townside?I already claimed. I am a third party who wins if me and flabort survive to game end. I have a revive with 50 percent chance of failure. Currently, Flabort is a member of the town.
IG:.....
You're awfully assumptive of the goodwill you've fostered. If I was a doc, I wouldn't protect you. If I was a vig, I'd probably shoot you. In fact, I'm almost certainly going to vote you; I just want to hear from Flabort first.
On the other hand, if I was a guard, I might lock you in.
You are going to lock a third party with a revive in?
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2014, 12:48:48 pm
So you were calling him a liar.To clarify, I didn't call you a liar, I said that I didn't believe your story:I am entitled to my doubts. Is that your only reason for the vote?Its less Hmm, IG, I doubt that and more like YOU ARE A LIAR AND I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING I LAUGH AT YOU VOTE IG
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 12:50:49 pm
Woah wait Toaster. While the option for survivors to side with the scumteam exists, its an option and not a fact that they will side with them.
I question you on what it means if a survivor exists. Does the lethality of the survivor not depend on the player, and thus the principles of a player in that case?
...
Wait, a Priest resurrects dead people, and said dead people are wildcards right?
And IG's wincon is...
wait. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365486#msg5365486)
Err... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368052#msg5368052)
Why did you vote Flabort again IG? How did you know he's 'town'? Why did you vote him under the premise that he's a third-party?
Why would you risk that?
PPE x2
*sigh*...Townside?I already claimed. I am a third party who wins if me and flabort survive to game end. I have a revive with 50 percent chance of failure. Currently, Flabort is a member of the town.
"What does Townside mean?"
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:54:40 pm
PFP:So you were calling him a liar.To clarify, I didn't call you a liar, I said that I didn't believe your story:I am entitled to my doubts. Is that your only reason for the vote?Its less Hmm, IG, I doubt that and more like YOU ARE A LIAR AND I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING I LAUGH AT YOU VOTE IG
No. I was leaving the possibility of him telling the truth on the table, as you will see if you go back through that. There's a semantics difference, but I'll stop debating the meaning of words.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 12:57:11 pm
*reads above post before my post*
Woah wait Toaster. While the option for survivors to side with the scumteam exists, its an option and not a fact that they will side with them.
I question you on what it means if a survivor exists. Does the lethality of the survivor not depend on the player, and thus the principles of a player in that case?
...
Wait, a Priest resurrects dead people, and said dead people are wildcards right?
And IG's wincon is...
wait. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365486#msg5365486)
Err... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368052#msg5368052)
Why did you vote Flabort again IG? How did you know he's 'town'? Why did you vote him under the premise that he's a third-party?
Why would you risk that?
PPE x2*sigh*...Townside?I already claimed. I am a third party who wins if me and flabort survive to game end. I have a revive with 50 percent chance of failure. Currently, Flabort is a member of the town.
"What does Townside mean?"
I know he is town because PM. I voted him to make it less prominent that I have association with flabort, and then he claims town investigative. I was thinking Im hunting thirds therefore i cannot be a third! But didnt work. Also, townside means to side with the town. TO win with them, help them, whatever furthers their goal.
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 12:57:17 pm
You are going to lock a third party with a revive in?
Considering the unreliability of Supernatural revives, I don't see that as a bad thing.
I already claimed. I am a third party who wins if me and flabort survive to game end. I have a revive with 50 percent chance of failure. Currently, Flabort is a member of the town.
Wait... does he win if you win and town doesn't?
Also, what's your role name?
Tiruin:
*reads above post before my post*
Woah wait Toaster. While the option for survivors to side with the scumteam exists, its an option and not a fact that they will side with them.
I question you on what it means if a survivor exists. Does the lethality of the survivor not depend on the player, and thus the principles of a player in that case?
The kicker is that survivors are opportunists. They play for the winning side, because they want the game to end as soon as possible, before they have a chance to die. If the town is winning, sure, they'll side for them. But what happens if the scum is winning? Do they go the long shot and risk death? Hell no.
Principles or no, a rule of Mafia is to play to win. And from playing with IG, I expect him to play to win.
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 12:59:42 pm
Tiruin:>_>*reads above post before my post*
Woah wait Toaster. While the option for survivors to side with the scumteam exists, its an option and not a fact that they will side with them.
I question you on what it means if a survivor exists. Does the lethality of the survivor not depend on the player, and thus the principles of a player in that case?
The kicker is that survivors are opportunists. They play for the winning side, because they want the game to end as soon as possible, before they have a chance to die. If the town is winning, sure, they'll side for them. But what happens if the scum is winning? Do they go the long shot and risk death? Hell no.
Principles or no, a rule of Mafia is to play to win. And from playing with IG, I expect him to play to win.
<_<
Am I seriously the only one who plans, as a survivor, to work on Town's side always?
muhh >_>
mmph <_<
Good answer but.. ;-;
I know he is town because PM. I voted him to make it less prominent that I have association with flabort, and then he claims town investigative. I was thinking Im hunting thirds therefore i cannot be a third! But didnt work. Also, townside means to side with the town. TO win with them, help them, whatever furthers their goal.Why did you claim in the first place?
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 01:00:18 pm
Am I seriously the only one who plans, as a survivor, to work on Town's side always?
Yep.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 01:00:52 pm
Nope.Am I seriously the only one who plans, as a survivor, to work on Town's side always?
Yep.
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 01:01:46 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 01:02:24 pm
Wait... does he win if you win and town doesn't?Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies were posted. You may wish to review your post.
Idunno.
Also, what's your role name?
Exile Mage
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 01:03:08 pm
Then you're not playing to win.And I should care why...
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2014, 01:04:08 pm
IG: Flavour for your role, please.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 01:04:35 pm
Flabort claimed, and I was in immidiate danger.I know he is town because PM. I voted him to make it less prominent that I have association with flabort, and then he claims town investigative. I was thinking Im hunting thirds therefore i cannot be a third! But didnt work. Also, townside means to side with the town. TO win with them, help them, whatever furthers their goal.Why did you claim in the first place?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 01:08:37 pm
Nope.Am I seriously the only one who plans, as a survivor, to work on Town's side always?
Yep.
Then you're not playing to win.;-;
But Town is more fun...
*sniff*
Well...fine, I guess I would side with scum...but that'll only be at LYLO and if I have no other choice and Town doesn't want to "cooperate" and scum are literally winning unless there are any wildcards to save town...or town doesn't play good and scum is playing well.
Indiana Persus...Why does every speculation have the awesome guesses. >_>Everyone: Anyone willing to bet on the scum team this time around?It'll be you and Tiruin in a inverted satanic golem cult. I called it first.
No I'm not a cult or a golem :v You are silly.
o_O?Flabort claimed, and I was in immidiate danger.I know he is town because PM. I voted him to make it less prominent that I have association with flabort, and then he claims town investigative. I was thinking Im hunting thirds therefore i cannot be a third! But didnt work. Also, townside means to side with the town. TO win with them, help them, whatever furthers their goal.Why did you claim in the first place?
He did?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 01:10:11 pm
IG: Flavour for your role, please.Cant quote PM.
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2014, 01:12:29 pm
IG: Don't have to. Summarize in your own words.IG: Flavour for your role, please.Cant quote PM.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 01:20:02 pm
I am a mage in exile for murdering a guard who was protecting magical resources I needed to attempt to remove the Cultist God in supernatural 6 from memory, removing said gods power. It failed because cultist win in Sup 6. I need Flabort alive because he apparently decends from a long lost tree of warriors who fought the servants of these dark gods and one of his ancestors apparently weakened said god enough to force him into slumber. I must bring him to the point where the first follower of said cult god was contacted by the god, and use my magic and his blood to open a portal to said god's domain to slay him.IG: Don't have to. Summarize in your own words.IG: Flavour for your role, please.Cant quote PM.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 12, 2014, 01:24:11 pm
I'll look at this game tomorrow.
And then the game grows by five pages while I'm sleeping.
Guys, you're breaking my heart here.
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 01:27:13 pm
..I'm that one person in Sup 6..right? :v I somehow remember that I was a werewolf then.
It is apparent that I did not check.
...Though don't priests revive dead people instead o_O?
Post by: notquitethere on June 12, 2014, 01:30:21 pm
This means there are bigger fish to fry. We win if we lynch scum, not 3rd parties, and IG can prove his role ability by raising tonight in case we mislynch town.
Whoever is on the IG lynch: why not kill scum instead?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 01:33:38 pm
That is one awesome backstory.Yes. Im a mage who had the power to ERASE A GOD FROM THE MEMORY OF ALL BUT 3 PEOPLE ( The cult team in Sup6 )
..I'm that one person in Sup 6..right? :v I somehow remember that I was a werewolf then.
It is apparent that I did not check.
...Though don't priests revive dead people instead o_O?
The revive is to ensure our said chosen one's allies survive to remove the immidiate threat. However, I murdered the guard to get what I needed, so theres a chance the gods will just look at me, say murderer, and mess stuff up.
I for one think IG's probably telling the truth. He reminds me a lot like Tiruin's Life Mage in that Witches game: incredulous that anyone should think him anything but benign.The aformentioned 50 percent chance of revival revive?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 01:44:14 pm
I do recall you rather said '50 percent chance of [nope redacted, is now vague]' insteadI for one think IG's probably telling the truth. He reminds me a lot like Tiruin's Life Mage in that Witches game: incredulous that anyone should think him anything but benign.The aformentioned 50 percent chance of revival revive?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 01:44:57 pm
Speaking of whom:
NQT:
Whoever is on the IG lynch: why not kill scum instead?It's hard to explain why, but this question bothers me. It feels like you are trying to impose your beliefs on everyone else while still seeming to be polite and questioning. I don't know exactly what bothers me about this, but it set off an alarm somewhere in my mind. If I find a way to articulate it, I'll bring it up again, just know that I am watching you closely.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 01:47:07 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 01:47:40 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 01:49:14 pm
IG: Considering something bad happens when Flabort dies, why not lynch you now to prevent that from happening?Im a survivor lover who doesnt sui when my target dies, but instead I get a different Wincon. I doubt I would get an SK or Mafia wincon if Flabort died.
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 01:53:03 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 01:53:59 pm
*cough*o_O?Flabort claimed, and I was in immidiate danger.I know he is town because PM. I voted him to make it less prominent that I have association with flabort, and then he claims town investigative. I was thinking Im hunting thirds therefore i cannot be a third! But didnt work. Also, townside means to side with the town. TO win with them, help them, whatever furthers their goal.Why did you claim in the first place?
He did?
Query here. Because I'm really wondering where he claimed (or I missed it in all its entirety despite multiple check backs)
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 01:55:44 pm
IG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 02:02:03 pm
Do you have any reason to say that besides it makes you less of a lynch target?It would be dumb.
Oh no I cant kill the cult god I got myself exiled over, KILL EVERYONE/ IF YA CANT BEAT EM JOIN EM
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2014, 02:17:24 pm
Some, not as much as I still need to.
Flabort4mask wolf is no longer in the yellow. That said, he's not in the red, orange, or full green, either; he's in the light green, so I trust him right now. I don't want him to be lynched day 1. Maybe I'll change my mind on day 2 or 3, but I trust him right now.I take it you're using your numbered colour-coded spreadsheet method to determine aggregate scumminess? Have you refined your criteria since the time you were scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137849.msg5274813#msg5274813)? Only, it didn't seem to be very effective at actually picking out scum.
Also, that time, I started the sheet far before I knew I'd be scum, as I had replaced in.
Flabort:'I determine whether a post gets a positive or negative score mostly be opinion, which is probably innacurate. I need to write up a chart of "town hints" and "scum hints", plus "tells", to more accurately gauge posts. Accounting for meta, no, for context, yes.Persus: Yes, I have played with 3Ps before, but rarely have they ever actually been a major threat or player in the games I've played.Well, third parties are dangerous, although Imperial does seem to be overly concerned about them.
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.
IG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.
And so instead of citing actual content from IG to back up your reasons, you cite... a post from two more experienced players? That's definitely where I'd apply the Misuse of authority scumtell.
And lots of low content posts build up over time. It's also how someone plays, and if there's one thing I really dislike it is people trying to lynch someone based on playstyle.
Also, I'd like to echo NQT's concern about how accurate your scoring method is. How do you determine the score a post receives? DO you account for meta, or context? Have you tried doing the scoring method to a finished game and then compared the scores with flips?
Finally, why are you roleclaiming (albeit slightly) this early? There's no real point from a town point of view, as it doesn't really add anything to your argument while it makes you more likely to be NKed.
I should try applying this method to a finished game to polish said method.
I am soft claiming this early because IG was adamant that I was third party. It certainly changed his opinion of me, though it didn't change anyone else's opinions, it seems.
'Fraid not.Alright, I guess you all are getting the hints and piecing it all together. I'm a third party, specifically our new element ( I think ). The D1 attacks were to keep heat off of others ( I was assuming flabort was town at that point ). My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose. The focus on third parties was to keep me safe from scum and vigs, etc. There it all is. Look at that how you will and consider it how you will.Well this begins to make a bit more sense. Is your ability harmful to town?
Can anyone else shine some light on this? Flabort?
I know nothing about anyone else's roles yet, including IG's. It does seem inconsistant with what I do know, but what I do know is little enough yet, so I can't really say whether he's lying or telling the truth.
It does seem consistent with his claim that I've doomed us both, and that the last thing he wanted is for me to claim.
...Though this does seem consistent with what I know. The second part, not the first.
Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.
...
Its unstable magicks. That is all.
Imperial Guardsman:Only what discussion so far has told me, because I have no control over my power and it hasn't told me anything useful yet.My wincon is the towns wincon, and vice versa. Read back.
Oh really?My Wincon is for both me and flabort to survive to the end of the game, no matter who wins. I have an ability with a 50 percent chance of failure that I will not disclose.
This is emphatically not a town wincon. Make up your mind which it is.
4mask: Actually, I don't see an issue at all with his Flabort vote. This isn't a hammer game, so it's not like he didn't have plenty of time to remove it. Plus, it provides a bit of distancing if he didn't want to have the connection known.
Flabort: Do you have any knowledge of this?
Roleblocking, Doctoring, Jailkeeping, etc.Tiruin What power benefits town the most: Information, Death, or Prevention?I'd say they are all in the same box, sans the third. Information is gleaned upon the death of a townie as it confirms what they said or did, like in the matters of a massclaim and contradicting claims. Death, without much instance of information gained (ie Townie w/ God complex just gets 'imself killed) still has its merits as it shows how reactions and interactions follow--though this can be dissuaded by a change of pace or mannerism from the scumteam (and even then, if they worked in 'is death at all!)
I have no idea what you mean by prevention ._.
IG:Why does your opinion of him weigh so heavily on my opinion? The question you asked me is pretty vague, so I don't think you're really waiting on me.
You're awfully assumptive of the goodwill you've fostered. If I was a doc, I wouldn't protect you. If I was a vig, I'd probably shoot you. In fact, I'm almost certainly going to vote you; I just want to hear from Flabort first.
On the other hand, if I was a guard, I might lock you in.
Makes sense. However, said name only means you're not directly town; doesn't mean you're not scum or not third party.Wait... does he win if you win and town doesn't?Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies were posted. You may wish to review your post.
Idunno.
Also, what's your role name?
Exile Mage
I'm currently inclined to believe 3rd party, but I'd like to wait for more information now.
I for one think IG's probably telling the truth. He reminds me a lot like Tiruin's Life Mage in that Witches game: incredulous that anyone should think him anything but benign.Because I was asleep when he claimed. And it's taken me two hours to read what's been posted since I woke up!
This means there are bigger fish to fry. We win if we lynch scum, not 3rd parties, and IG can prove his role ability by raising tonight in case we mislynch town.
Whoever is on the IG lynch: why not kill scum instead?
It was page 3 or 4 @ 50 ppp when I went to sleep. It's now page 6!
Concerning IG's flavor, where I'm a descendant of such and such... not inaccurate.
Toaster[/b] You have been sliding down my scumometer as I've logged each post this morning. I find you have been aggressive and possibly even actively wanting a mislynch. What are your reads on everybody?
4maskwolf You dropped a pretty strong cult-hint earlier. When you suggested that you would indoctrinate IG into your cult if you were part of one. This dropped you back into the lime green area of my scumometer. However, what you said was just "would you like that to happen", so I'm not thinking you're actually scum/cult yet. What are you reads on everybody?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 02:28:48 pm
...I read that in context of metaphysical note, not role powers >_>Roleblocking, Doctoring, Jailkeeping, etc.Tiruin What power benefits town the most: Information, Death, or Prevention?I'd say they are all in the same box, sans the third. Information is gleaned upon the death of a townie as it confirms what they said or did, like in the matters of a massclaim and contradicting claims. Death, without much instance of information gained (ie Townie w/ God complex just gets 'imself killed) still has its merits as it shows how reactions and interactions follow--though this can be dissuaded by a change of pace or mannerism from the scumteam (and even then, if they worked in 'is death at all!)
I have no idea what you mean by prevention ._.
Where did you
^*cough*o_O?Flabort claimed, and I was in immidiate danger.I know he is town because PM. I voted him to make it less prominent that I have association with flabort, and then he claims town investigative. I was thinking Im hunting thirds therefore i cannot be a third! But didnt work. Also, townside means to side with the town. TO win with them, help them, whatever furthers their goal.Why did you claim in the first place?
He did?
Query here. Because I'm really wondering where he claimed (or I missed it in all its entirety despite multiple check backs)
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2014, 02:32:22 pm
IG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2014, 02:39:07 pm
In short, I think you are scum, probably a priest as well.
PPE:
Toaster[/b] You have been sliding down my scumometer as I've logged each post this morning. I find you have been aggressive and possibly even actively wanting a mislynch.It's only a mislynch if said player is town. Imperial hasn't been proven to be a third party anyway. And Imperial can be blackmailed by another third-party, or scum (also, vigs, but vigs aren't certain). I would hardly call that a mislynch.
Also, are you saying your flavor matches with Imperial's?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 02:43:11 pm
Imperial, I don't really think your flavor seems plausible. First, Meph has never really referenced any previous games in his Supernatural flavor (or if he has, I must have missed it), and that flavor doesn't sound like his style to me. Secondly, your claimed revive power sounds a lot more like a Priest then your claimed role. Plus, on looking back at your vote on flabort, it does seem more like it was intended more as a lynch vote then anything else. If you were trying to get him to back off, I would have expected it to be more of an OMGUS and without the part where you trumpeted to the skies that you had found a third party. I think you were convinced you were going to be lynched, and so you fakeclaimed a third party role in order to prevent yourself from getting lynched.You do note he paraphrased it right?
Tiruin Toaster already pointed it out....mph :IIG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.
I look at the post directly above that. What IG did is solely before the post quoted.
But looking back [and by that I mean the post below this quote]--it is implied you two have a quicktopic chat, mm?
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2014, 02:43:56 pm
YesImperial, I don't really think your flavor seems plausible. First, Meph has never really referenced any previous games in his Supernatural flavor (or if he has, I must have missed it), and that flavor doesn't sound like his style to me. Secondly, your claimed revive power sounds a lot more like a Priest then your claimed role. Plus, on looking back at your vote on flabort, it does seem more like it was intended more as a lynch vote then anything else. If you were trying to get him to back off, I would have expected it to be more of an OMGUS and without the part where you trumpeted to the skies that you had found a third party. I think you were convinced you were going to be lynched, and so you fakeclaimed a third party role in order to prevent yourself from getting lynched.You do note he paraphrased it right?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 02:47:24 pm
[/quote]What was the merit of your claim for?Flabort claimed, and I was in immidiate danger.I know he is town because PM. I voted him to make it less prominent that I have association with flabort, and then he claims town investigative. I was thinking Im hunting thirds therefore i cannot be a third! But didnt work. Also, townside means to side with the town. TO win with them, help them, whatever furthers their goal.Why did you claim in the first place?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 02:50:36 pm
Imperial, I don't really think your flavor seems plausible. First, Meph has never really referenced any previous games in his Supernatural flavor (or if he has, I must have missed it), and that flavor doesn't sound like his style to me. Secondly, your claimed revive power sounds a lot more like a Priest then your claimed role. Plus, on looking back at your vote on flabort, it does seem more like it was intended more as a lynch vote then anything else. If you were trying to get him to back off, I would have expected it to be more of an OMGUS and without the part where you trumpeted to the skies that you had found a third party. I think you were convinced you were going to be lynched, and so you fakeclaimed a third party role in order to prevent yourself from getting lynched.Ill happily give you more information, but too bad I can never play supernatural again because I would quote a PM.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 02:53:05 pm
4maskwolf You dropped a pretty strong cult-hint earlier. When you suggested that you would indoctrinate IG into your cult if you were part of one. This dropped you back into the lime green area of my scumometer. However, what you said was just "would you like that to happen", so I'm not thinking you're actually scum/cult yet. What are you reads on everybody?Cult... hint...
When did I...
Can you link this? I'm pretty sure I said that the scum would kill IG and then he said "well they are likely a cult and could just convert me instead".
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 02:55:35 pm
As for reads? Gimme a little, I need to see more posts from everyone, I'll post them by the end of the day.
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2014, 03:00:30 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
But looking back [and by that I mean the post below this quote]--it is implied you two have a quicktopic chat, mm?Pchaw. I wish.
We would have coordinated and not voted for each other if we had a chat.
Or at least neither of us would be flailing so bad.
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 03:02:30 pm
Why does your opinion of him weigh so heavily on my opinion? The question you asked me is pretty vague, so I don't think you're really waiting on me.
It has nothing to do with your opinion. I was waiting to see if you were going to corroborate his claim. I didn't think you would, but I was curious.
So you have no evidence at all of anything he's said in your flavor?
Toaster] You have been sliding down my scumometer as I've logged each post this morning. I find you have been aggressive and possibly even actively wanting a mislynch. What are your reads on everybody?
I will answer that question when you answer this one: just who am I trying to mislynch?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 03:04:19 pm
*chuckles*Toaster] You have been sliding down my scumometer as I've logged each post this morning. I find you have been aggressive and possibly even actively wanting a mislynch. What are your reads on everybody?
I will answer that question when you answer this one: just who am I trying to mislynch?
Flabort, check your sources, according to my chart and the lurkertracker the last and only person voted by Toaster is NQT.
Post by: zombie urist on June 12, 2014, 03:04:55 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on June 12, 2014, 03:13:23 pm
Toony: can you reiterate the points behind your vote on me, por favor?You're being defensive while also only picking and choosing who to bother with.
Bullshit. Play to your wincon. A scum player doesn't betray his team and reveal them at the start does he?Nope.Am I seriously the only one who plans, as a survivor, to work on Town's side always?Yep.
@Notquitethere:
Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?I think he's being dumb. I suppose it's a safe lynch (but maybe not the best lynch), since he's very likely third-party and his connection with Flabort is amazingly unclear.
@Imperial Guardsman:
What the hell are you doing??? I have a pretty good feeling that you're being upfront about this, but unless you're bluffing the crap out of scum into killing Flabort you've completely screwed yourself and it's only Day 1! Have you read the third Witches' Coven (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125287.0)? Do you know what happened to Tiruin after she blabbed about being a third-party helper for the town on Day 1? She fucking lost hard!! I hate big mouths, what are you doing claiming this early and endangering yourself and Flabort? Why can't you keep some damn secrecy from the players who will be killing us during the night??I am a mage in exile for murdering a guard who was protecting magical resources I needed to attempt to remove the Cultist God in supernatural 6 from memory, removing said gods power. It failed because cultist win in Sup 6. I need Flabort alive because he apparently decends from a long lost tree of warriors who fought the servants of these dark gods and one of his ancestors apparently weakened said god enough to force him into slumber. I must bring him to the point where the first follower of said cult god was contacted by the god, and use my magic and his blood to open a portal to said god's domain to slay him.IG: Don't have to. Summarize in your own words.IG: Flavour for your role, please.Cant quote PM.
I have to agree with Toaster's attacks on Notquitethere, and I'm feeling that 4maskwolf and NQT are working together for some reason.
No, I don't think IG or Flabort are mafia right now.
Also I am mad.
PPE (a million replies have been posted since I started writing this):
@Notquitethere:
I for one think IG's probably telling the truth. He reminds me a lot like Tiruin's Life Mage in that Witches game: incredulous that anyone should think him anything but benign.Actually, yeah, exactly. Who do you think is a good lynch?
This means there are bigger fish to fry. We win if we lynch scum, not 3rd parties, and IG can prove his role ability by raising tonight in case we mislynch town.
Whoever is on the IG lynch: why not kill scum instead?
world cup is on so post later*angrily storms out and goes drinking with Jim and ZU
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2014, 03:13:57 pm
Who are you trying to kill?: NQT, 4mask, IG. You are so desperate to get one of them killed, consequences be damned.
You're not actually that desperate, but I'm pretty sure IG is pro-town at the moment, and the other two lean town for me.
@4mask: Grrmble. I know I deducted those points for something, my notes claim aggressive there and there...
I have to go back over them. Thanks.
PPE: Will read ToonyMan's post in a second.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 03:18:53 pm
This sounds remarkably like "my fun is more important than your fun" to me. I can play however I like, thanks. There are certain social norms governing the scum, but if I was a loner third-party survivor then I wouldn't have any strictures on how I play. I could claim day one if I wanted to.Bullshit. Play to your wincon. A scum player doesn't betray his team and reveal them at the start does he?Nope.Am I seriously the only one who plans, as a survivor, to work on Town's side always?Yep.
@4maskwolf:Mmk. I don't exactly have the mental capacity to engage in five conversations at once, you realize, so of course I pick and choose.Toony: can you reiterate the points behind your vote on me, por favor?You're being defensive while also only picking and choosing who to bother with.
I could full claim to prove that nobody is directly mentioned in my flavor, but that it does hint towards a lot of magic, and that it doesn't directly contradict his claim. In fact, since he claimed before I revealed my flavor, and his flavor points towards complimenting mine, he seems legit. Do you want me to full claim?Oh no you don't full claim.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 12, 2014, 03:21:21 pm
Imperial Guardsman, so how do you know that the cult god thing you're fighting against is the one from Supernatural 6?
I could full claim to prove that nobody is directly mentioned in my flavor, but that it does hint towards a lot of magic, and that it doesn't directly contradict his claim. In fact, since he claimed before I revealed my flavor, and his flavor points towards complimenting mine, he seems legit. Do you want me to full claim?
Having a little magic in your flavor wouldn't be unusual for a Supernatural game. In any case, claiming magic is basically claiming a power role.
When I'm up for it I'll dig deeper but I think it's a good idea to get the conversation started. I've ignored RVS questions posed to me because meh whatever so if you really want them answered please tell me.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 03:23:18 pm
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2014, 03:23:27 pm
Extend. Day ends tomorrow and I think we're going to need the extra time the way this is going.
It's not all that I have on him, however, I'd have to go over my notes and cross-reference them in order to form a concise thought.flabort: Why not do this when you're placing your vote, instead of pointing at me and treating that as an argument?
Toaster You have been sliding down my scumometer as I've logged each post this morning. I find you have been aggressive and possibly even actively wanting a mislynch. What are your reads on everybody?Telling us that your scumometer says something doesn't mean much. Explain, please. With evidence.
Imperial Guardsman: You have claimed to be a quasi-survivor who wins if you and an alleged townie live at the end of the game. Your claim makes sense, and the flavour is good. I generally believe your claim, though I cannot consider flabort above suspicion based on your claim alone.
However, quasi-survivor as you have claimed it is not a pro-town role, even if attached to a townie. It is a role that, should we make it to what would normally be >3p LYLO, can and likely will side with the mafia. In addition, your behaviour has not exactly been town-supportive.
I suggest that if we have a vig, that vig shoot Guardsman.
Im a survivor lover who doesnt sui when my target dies, but instead I get a different Wincon. I doubt I would get an SK or Mafia wincon if Flabort died.Guardsman: And other non-town wincons aren't anti-town? Lyncher, which you lean towards, is disruptive and town-harming even if targeting the scum.
4maskwolf, if you wont bother to listen, you are endangering my wincon, and by extension, the towns wincon. I started a broadside against nearly everybody, with accusations of being a third, to make me un noticed by vigs...Being a disruptive and useless twit flailing at everything and everyone is not vig repellant. It's a good way to attract vigs.
Lolz you're funny. This is actually hysterical. I'm dying laughing right now.4maskwolf: I'm not very fond of poor-tasting wine. How much of a risk did you think that vote was, considering how little credibility Guardsman had and how people were treating his inane cases? Have you ever heard of distancing? With the astounding and risky way Guardsman has been playing today, do you really think he would never take an action that would decrease his chances of winning as much as his vote on flabort (that is, not all that much)?
Because if you knew that you needed Flabort to live, then you wouldn't have voted for him in the first place, because you would have already known and not waited for a claim. And if you didn't know that you needed Flabort alive, then there was no way his claim was sufficient for you to determine that he was the one who needed to stay alive. Assuming you are telling the truth, which I doubt your vote for him was frankly ridiculous, and really risky. If your wincon truly relies on him staying alive, then you would never have taken a risk like that, no matter what. Because what if we had lynched him. You would have been the one to lose yourself the game. I've seen you play this game often enough to know that you wouldn't take a risk like that.
I treat every vote on me as a lynch vote, and responded accordingly. I attacked you for having no case against me, as I would for anyone who attempted a lynch vote on me without a strong case.Why do you treat every vote on you as a lynch vote? You've been playing here for a while. You know there is more nuance than that in voting.
notquitethere: So. People (I'd unvoted, and Flabort was starting to express doubts) were starting to move away from a Guardsman lynch. There was a move away from staring at the trainwreck. Two votes remained on the guy, and of those, one was by someone who felt Guardsman was moving towards looking town-like (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5366764#msg5366764).
And then you come in and tell half the game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367241#msg5367241) to look at the trainwreck and start talking about it because it looked like the Guardsman lynch would happen. At the time, you ask him a few questions, but give no opinion.
You justify the push to focus on Guardsman by saying you want to make sure nobody stays silent on major lynch ideas (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367870#msg5367870), yes. Of course, you were silent on whether the lynch was good when you told everyone to give opinions. With your justification, at least, you give your opinion of Guardsman: he's not helpful and behaves irrationally. Not really thoughts on whether to lynch him.
You also take a shot at 4maskwolf, and say you suspect him. For some reason, though, you would rather sit back and keep your old, reasonless flabort vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365048#msg5365048), instead of voting for someone you suspect.
You're sitting on the sidelines, telling people who to look at and throwing scattered questions around. Any time you see much attention on a player, you tell half the game to look at that player. You give little in the way of thoughts on your own, and you repeatedly try to keep the focus of play on whoever gets attention. Aside from the initial 4maskwolf vote, you don't vote for any suspects.
Who do you think is scum? Why?
Why are you voting for flabort?
Why so passive?
PPE x A LOT:
*chuckles*4maskwolf: You are aware that votes are not the only tool for pushing mislynches, right?
Flabort, check your sources, according to my chart and the lurkertracker the last and only person voted by Toaster is NQT.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 03:26:53 pm
Imperial Guardsman: You have claimed to be a quasi-survivor who wins if you and an alleged townie live at the end of the game. Your claim makes sense, and the flavour is good. I generally believe your claim, though I cannot consider flabort above suspicion based on your claim alone.
However, quasi-survivor as you have claimed it is not a pro-town role, even if attached to a townie. It is a role that, should we make it to what would normally be >3p LYLO, can and likely will side with the mafia. In addition, your behaviour has not exactly been town-supportive.
I suggest that if we have a vig, that vig shoot Guardsman.Im a survivor lover who doesnt sui when my target dies, but instead I get a different Wincon. I doubt I would get an SK or Mafia wincon if Flabort died.Guardsman: And other non-town wincons aren't anti-town? Lyncher, which you lean towards, is disruptive and town-harming even if targeting the scum.
Claim Im Townsiding.
Get murdered by scum.
Claim Im Mafsiding.
Get murdered by town.
How about I keep an eye on flabort, and watch the maf and town sort it all out?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 03:31:13 pm
I wouldn't know, I don't drink. As for the vote, I have no idea. By attacking anyone, even another townie, there is always to possibility they slip up accidently and draw fire onto themselves. It wasn't a major risk, I guess, but in his situation I wouldn't have even started in on it, at least not on day one.Lolz you're funny. This is actually hysterical. I'm dying laughing right now.4maskwolf: I'm not very fond of poor-tasting wine. How much of a risk did you think that vote was, considering how little credibility Guardsman had and how people were treating his inane cases? Have you ever heard of distancing? With the astounding and risky way Guardsman has been playing today, do you really think he would never take an action that would decrease his chances of winning as much as his vote on flabort (that is, not all that much)?
Because if you knew that you needed Flabort to live, then you wouldn't have voted for him in the first place, because you would have already known and not waited for a claim. And if you didn't know that you needed Flabort alive, then there was no way his claim was sufficient for you to determine that he was the one who needed to stay alive. Assuming you are telling the truth, which I doubt your vote for him was frankly ridiculous, and really risky. If your wincon truly relies on him staying alive, then you would never have taken a risk like that, no matter what. Because what if we had lynched him. You would have been the one to lose yourself the game. I've seen you play this game often enough to know that you wouldn't take a risk like that.
Yes, I know what distancing is, read GBU. I unvote-bussed one scumbuddy and spent much of the game attacking the other (sorry Cheese). I am perfectly aware of the strategy and technique of that particular method.
Yes, I do. However, that is the way I choose to play the game. My apologies if that bothers you.I treat every vote on me as a lynch vote, and responded accordingly. I attacked you for having no case against me, as I would for anyone who attempted a lynch vote on me without a strong case.Why do you treat every vote on you as a lynch vote? You've been playing here for a while. You know there is more nuance than that in voting.
Yes, I am. It happened to me in my first ever game. I haven't really had an occasion to use them, but I know it does happen. I'm taking that into account. I was stating a fact, and seeing what Flabort did with it.*chuckles*4maskwolf: You are aware that votes are not the only tool for pushing mislynches, right?
Flabort, check your sources, according to my chart and the lurkertracker the last and only person voted by Toaster is NQT.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 12, 2014, 03:44:35 pm
hwoarp deoaororoap
Hey how about you answer my question. You know, the one I asked less than half an hour ago.
Groovester: Now that you are up to date, could you tell us your general feeling about each player?
That requires a more thorough read through than I have given and I am capable of doing right now.
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2014, 03:45:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Jack:
Why not cross-ref and double check while voting: Because PPE "32 posts RAWR".
Why I said my scumometer said that: Because I'm relying too much on an aggregate and not enough on concrete evidence. Because I've never seen a game with so much activity. Because even with tons of free time, I don't have enough time to go back 100s of posts to find one post, even though my tracker tool tells me which posts I upvoted and downvoted.
@IG: That's defeatism and bad formatting. Try not to do either (says the guy who broke a bold tag).
PPE: @4mask: And what did I do with the fact and what did it tell you? I'm losing track rapidly here of who's claiming what.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 03:49:54 pm
PPE: @4mask: And what did I do with the fact and what did it tell you? I'm losing track rapidly here of who's claiming what.It moved you towards the scum end of the meter. A townie would have likely made the exact point Jack did about there being other ways to push a mislynch: instead, you meekly back down. You're experienced enough that it does put a mark against you. It's a similar trick to the one LARD loves to use, actually.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 04:40:24 pm
Imperial Guardsman, so how do you know that the cult god thing you're fighting against is the one from Supernatural 6?Hyperlinks in the words.
Post by: zombie urist on June 12, 2014, 04:44:16 pm
Flabort: your previous post revealed your meter is hilariously flawed. please in the future post your reasons insteAd of numbers.
IG claimed 3rd party and I mostly believe him so I think Ill ignore him for the rest of the day.
Persus why did u reapond for Toaster?
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 12, 2014, 05:38:48 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 12, 2014, 06:41:02 pm
4maskwolf: Imperial Guardsman, ToonyMan
flabort: notquitethere
Imperial Guardsman: Ottofar, Persus13
notquitethere: Jack A.T., Toaster, zombie urist
Toaster: Tiruin
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Friday
I can be a temporary replacement - I'll be around for a few weeks and then leaving to a place without internet.Tiruin, would this work ok for you? Or would you need a permanent replacement?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 06:47:24 pm
@_@But looking back [and by that I mean the post below this quote]--it is implied you two have a quicktopic chat, mm?Pchaw. I wish.
We would have coordinated and not voted for each other if we had a chat.
Or at least neither of us would be flailing so bad.
Mhmm.
So your flailing does explain...oh, say, both your wording before?
First note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5338963#msg5338963) -- stuff stuff flabort third party :O
Second note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365521#msg5365521) -- more stuff omg informative role o-o [Did anyone ask flabort why he claimed there? flabort: Why'd you claim there? You do note that such claims are taken into scrutiny, yes?]
Third note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365553#msg5365553) -- nuu flabort D: *Impending doom chimes* feeling.
What is your goal with all that?
What do you think is his goal with all that?
IG: Same question--also follow up on my question back there.
Spoiler: Dis wun (click to show/hide)
I dunno o-oI can be a temporary replacement - I'll be around for a few weeks and then leaving to a place without internet.Tiruin, would this work ok for you? Or would you need a permanent replacement?
I'm sorta stable at the moment and after today, its a free me for 3 nice days.
I'd venture on a permanent replacement [so as to not bug TWS for being an awesomenice guy] instead. Thanks though :) both of you
...
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on June 12, 2014, 07:58:26 pm
For those who are voting me: Toaster, ZU, and Jack, I quite clearly explain my rationale for acting here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367870#msg5367870) Please address my counterpoints and then if you still want me lynched explain why. Also, ZU never even responded to my rebuttal here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367241#msg5367241).
Responses
Wolf
NQT:It's good to examine your feelings—if you have a substantive worry then let me know.Whoever is on the IG lynch: why not kill scum instead?It's hard to explain why, but this question bothers me. It feels like you are trying to impose your beliefs on everyone else while still seeming to be polite and questioning. I don't know exactly what bothers me about this, but it set off an alarm somewhere in my mind. If I find a way to articulate it, I'll bring it up again, just know that I am watching you closely.
Toony
I have to agree with Toaster's attacks on Notquitethere, and I'm feeling that 4maskwolf and NQT are working together for some reason.The last I read, Toaster was planning to swap his vote to Imperial: he certainly never followed up on my response to his vote despite ample opportunity to do so. It's funny that you should think me and Wolf were in league, but if that's your baseless intuition then so be it.
Actually, yeah, exactly. Who do you think is a good lynch?In the final part of this post I will perform my reads on everyone and come to a conclusion.
Jack
A lot to break down here, so I'll be taking it paragraph by paragraph. I think some of your fears are coming off as quite reasonable and I can understand how you got to this point, but you're wrong.
And then you come in and tell half the game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367241#msg5367241) to look at the trainwreck and start talking about it because it looked like the Guardsman lynch would happen. At the time, you ask him a few questions, but give no opinion.Sure, I only told half the game to look at the discussion because the other half already had.
You justify the push to focus on Guardsman by saying you want to make sure nobody stays silent on major lynch ideas (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367870#msg5367870), yes. Of course, you were silent on whether the lynch was good when you told everyone to give opinions. With your justification, at least, you give your opinion of Guardsman: he's not helpful and behaves irrationally. Not really thoughts on whether to lynch him.Well I was genuinely unsure whether it was a good lynch. I did also say that I intended to do a full read before Day's end. That happens below.
You also take a shot at 4maskwolf, and say you suspect him. For some reason, though, you would rather sit back and keep your old, reasonless flabort vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365048#msg5365048), instead of voting for someone you suspect.Flabort had yet to respond to my question, I didn't want to unvote before getting a response back. Standard practice really. I knew there wasn't a super hurry as I'd be about to post plenty before the end of the day.
You're sitting on the sidelines, telling people who to look at and throwing scattered questions around. Any time you see much attention on a player, you tell half the game to look at that player. You give little in the way of thoughts on your own, and you repeatedly try to keep the focus of play on whoever gets attention. Aside from the initial 4maskwolf vote, you don't vote for any suspects.I can see why you'd take umbrage with this. My thinking was to make everyone responsible for any given lynch, and to get everyone involved in every interesting discussion so scum have to comment on the lynches. I know it's made me look bad, but this has given us way more content to draw on in future games.
1. Who do you think is scum? Why?1. See below. 2. Was waiting for a decent response at first and then I was waiting to do my full reads. 3. I think forcing interaction from every player isn't passive play, but I can see how you'd expect more attacking from my play so far.
2. Why are you voting for flabort?
3. Why so passive?
ZU
Jack basically covered what I think about NQT. He seems to be asking "hey guys whats our opinion on lynching xxx" and not having to form his own.You're not very credible ZU. This definitely wasn't your reason given for voting me before and you've yet to actually address my responses to your case.
Reads
My scumhunting philosophy is largely based on an understanding of commitment or engagement. Scum don't want to vote others, make new cases, or draw attention to themselves. With this in mind, I've reread the entire thread and these are my preliminary conclusions.
Players in Postcount Order
Imperial Guardsman
I think he's probably telling the truth but he's also not made a proper case in the entire game or done anything that remotely resembles scum hunting. He's afraid to make waves, by keeping his vote bouncing back and forth of Wolf, with a smokescreen vote on Flabort claiming the latter is a 3rd party. This, I assume, was to make the scum less likely to night kill Flabort but was so ineptly handled one almost feels sorry for the guy. He's a safe kill for a vigilante, but town should focus on hunting more likely scum.
Wolf
Wolf is very defensive. His stance at the beginning of the game was that he was just going to watch from the sidelines and aggressively defend himself from every vote on him. Defensiveness is a null trait, possibly leaning town: I'm certainly most defensive when I'm righteous in my towniness. However, on its own it isn't very helpful to the cause. He's been deeply involved in the Imperial 3rd party discussions and now has come to the conclusion that we must scumhunt elsewhere, so I'm looking forward to seeing whether he does. Wolf could well be scum, but right now his prickliness comes across as slightly more likely in town. For now.
Jack A T
Jack has made two cases in the game: he voted Imperial over the latter's incredibly irrational play, shouting and flailing in all cap text, but then unvoted when he feared he'd induced a meltdown in an inexperienced player. I think it's more likely that Imperial is just finding his wincon hard to play and is digging himself digger. In any case, Jack unvoted and then later voted for me based on how I drew attention to current spats and my apparent passivity. Both are reasonable things to question. However, Jack's vote is the third on me so carries a greater weight. I'd be interested to see what he does next, but right now I have no strong reasons to suspect Jack from his D1 play.
Toaster
Toaster, despite wading heavily into the Imperial affair, has only placed one vote in the game and that's on me. I addressed his points and he had made posts after that, even saying in one that he was most likely going to switch to Imperial. Now the latter has all but full-claimed. He's spent a lot of time pumping IG; I'd like to see him do some real scum hunting. Slight scum read here.
Flabort
Votes Imperial, saying "It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory", but this case is wholly withdrawn when Imperial claims to be his lover watching out for him. Then he makes a loose case on Toaster, which is revoked after being revisited. This willingness to re-examine one's cases is admirable, but the lack of commitment to a lynch is also something we often see in scum who don't want to make enemies. My read on him somewhat depends on what he does next, but right now he's a fair candidate for being town. It's possible his spreadsheet method is used as a false screen to show objectivity where there is none.
Tiruin
Replaces out which justifies her not fully committing to the game, but then has over a dozen chatty posts where she mostly just asks people to point out things she's missed in the thread. Pretty much no content until she launches her Toaster attack, when the latter claims that third parties often side with scum at the end of the game, which is true. But her puzzlement does seem genuine, if misplaced. It's not something to lynch someone over though. I could believe Tiruin is scum at this stage.
Persus13
Votes Imperial over his obsession with 3rd parties, then swaps to Jiokuy over a comment about it looking bad if Imp flips scum, that's dropped and he returns to voting Imperial over the question of the plausibility of his flavour. Plainly, if Persus were scum, he'd be more likely to pursue a mislynch on a town player than try to show a claimed 3rd party is in fact not what he claims. I'm erring town for now.
Ottofar
Attacks Wolf for question dodging. Reasonable enough. Presses Imperial for a full claim and is instrumental in bringing it about and keeps his vote on him still. Safe bet to kill 3rd parties, but is that scumhunting? Otto could be any alignment right now. Let's see if he keeps his vote on IG.
Jiokuy
Says he's going to ask questions, doesn't really. Says we should focus away from 3rd parties and on to lurkers (and has only 6 low-content posts himself), but makes no effort personally towards that end. Last thing he did was respond to a mild attack. Has yet to make a vote. I'd lynch him now, but he says he's been away at a funeral which is a pretty good reason for low involvement. I'm thinking: give him the benefit of the doubt today and hang him high tomorrow if he doesn't up his game.
Zombie Urist
Does he only post from his phone? He's taking his hyper-terse, mondo-passive style to dizzying heights of noninvolvement. Read (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5360897#msg5360897) his (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364407#msg5364407) posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365142#msg5365142) if (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5366102#msg5366102) you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368886#msg5368886) like (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5369341#msg5369341). There's only six of them and there's almost nothing in them. He has a case on me, but won't actually address me. Only his very last post shows any sort of sliver of proactive engagement. I'm having a hard time believing that he's a force for good in this game.
Toony
He only has five posts in the game but he manages to pack in a lot of responses. His only real case, if it can be called that, is a question to Wolf and Imperial to ask them to explain themselves. He gets mad with Imperial for full claiming, and then says I'm in league with Wolf but doesn't offer any reason for this suspicion. He maintains his Wolf vote for defensiveness, which seems reasonable but I'm not convinced by his whole demeanour. Scum lean.
Jim
Has to post anything of substance. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368958#msg5368958), he says he's skimmed the game and asks one person one question, then later he says he's not able to actually read the thread right now (but crucially he does follow up on that one question). This seems like he's just more pressed for time than intentionally lurking. Hopefully see something of substance and a vote from him before the end of the day. Not enough info to say anything about his alignment right now.
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:10:41 pm
TiruinSo do you have backing for that or do you care enough to do more than generalize?
Replaces out which justifies her not fully committing to the game, but then has over a dozen chatty posts where she mostly just asks people to point out things she's missed in the thread. Pretty much no content until she launches her Toaster attack, when the latter claims that third parties often side with scum at the end of the game, which is true. But her puzzlement does seem genuine, if misplaced. It's not something to lynch someone over though. I could believe Tiruin is scum at this stage.
Because 'mostly just asks people to point out things I've missed' isn't saying much.
Not fully committed to the game? You try coping with [. . .]
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 08:15:54 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:17:03 pm
Im perfectly willing to revive mislynches, everyone.I'd love an answer to my question.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 08:17:27 pm
wotIm perfectly willing to revive mislynches, everyone.I'd love an answer to my question.
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:18:56 pm
You (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368809#msg5368809) miss out on A. Lot. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5369717#msg5369717)wotIm perfectly willing to revive mislynches, everyone.I'd love an answer to my question.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 08:20:22 pm
I claimed to take the spotlight off of flabort.You (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368809#msg5368809) miss out on A. Lot. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5369717#msg5369717)wotIm perfectly willing to revive mislynches, everyone.I'd love an answer to my question.
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:21:44 pm
That kind of brevity does not do you any good.
Append an answer as if I'm also asking an invisible 'why' at the end.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 08:25:11 pm
Could I get full answers to my questions and not one-liners instead?Flabort dying is bad for my wincon. I am one person and not that powerful. Flabort just claimed investigative. What do you expect me to do if I need him alive?
That kind of brevity does not do you any good.
Append an answer as if I'm also asking an invisible 'why' at the end.
Post by: notquitethere on June 12, 2014, 08:27:53 pm
So do you have backing for that or do you care enough to do more than generalize?I'm saying you haven't said much. But sure, I can back this up.
Because 'mostly just asks people to point out things I've missed' isn't saying much.
Your first five posts you say nothing related to this game (mostly because you're busy I guess) and then you ask for replacement.
Spoiler: references (click to show/hide)
Your sixth post you say you're still playing and ask IG a question. Your seventh is your first substantial post of the game, in which you answer questions and make a mild defence of Wolf (which hopefully people will remember if either of you flip scum).
In much of your other posts you ask people to clarify Flabort and Imperial's claims because you've only skimmed the game. Like, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368344#msg5368344) (it was obvious what Imperial meant by 'Townside' if you'd read his numerous defence of that point) and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368419#msg5368419) (you don't realise Flabort claimed, showing that you've not really read what's going on).
Not fully committed to the game? You try coping with [. . .]That's all okay as you've got RL worries and you plan to replace out, but it doesn't give me much confidence in your alignment.
Imperial
But you can only revive once, right? So that'd be mislynch singular, right?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 08:29:57 pm
ImperialYes. I have commendable grammar but in a game of Mafia I can't be expected to keep it up.
But you can only revive once, right? So that'd be mislynch singular, right?
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:30:45 pm
Because that gives no details and poses the question, 'why'.
What I would most likely expect is you to NOT claim because it is confounding that you DID claim.
It's like your claim would somehow erase what he said there, despite me being able to click one link and see 'oh, flabort claimed'.
Now cut with the hypotheticals and give a straight answer to my questions, please.
PPE: Bleh, have to go to school.
That makes me as happy as I was in that one circus Mafia game.Not fully committed to the game? You try coping with [. . .]That's all okay as you've got RL worries and you plan to replace out, but it doesn't give me much confidence in your alignment.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 08:32:13 pm
Toony: When you get back from drinking with your buddies, could you give us your reads. Thanks.
NQT: Once more, you sit back on your pedestal and direct others what to do. You say "it will be interesting to see if he actually does that" with regards to my scumhunting, yet do not scumhunt a great deal yourself in the same post. I'm smelling a contradiction here. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are no ? in your entire post.
PPE x3: Oh look, NQT asks a semantics question about the plurality of a word.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 08:33:41 pm
@IG A better explanation than 'I claimed because he claimed'.To take the heat off of flabort.
Because that gives no details and poses the question, 'why'.
What I would most likely expect is you to NOT claim because it is confounding that you DID claim.
It's like your claim would somehow erase what he said there, despite me being able to click one link and see 'oh, flabort claimed'.
Now cut with the hypotheticals and give a straight answer to my questions, please.
PPE: Bleh, have to go to school.
/laugh
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:40:50 pm
Tiruin: Your vote is on Toaster, yet you are chasing the imperial guardsmen rabbit that has gotten us nowhere. We now have a revealed third party, at least to the best of our knowledge. What do you expect to get out of this questioning?Someone who thinks.
IG is being deliberately obtuse and obfuscating.
What revealed that third party is, still is not as confirmed as my read on him is, given his demeanor, attitude and cognitive abilities to explain himself.
I mean, as a damn bloody priest, he could just easily resurrect flabort!
'Oooooo I'll take the heat off him by roleclaiming priest <3'
Yeah, that doesn't make much sense IG, and you're being as dense as a wall with that one-liner.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 08:42:27 pm
I specitically told everyone IN MY CLAIM that I cant ressurect flabort.Tiruin: Your vote is on Toaster, yet you are chasing the imperial guardsmen rabbit that has gotten us nowhere. We now have a revealed third party, at least to the best of our knowledge. What do you expect to get out of this questioning?Someone who thinks.
IG is being deliberately obtuse and obfuscating.
What revealed that third party is, still is not as confirmed as my read on him is, given his demeanor, attitude and cognitive abilities to explain himself.
I mean, as a damn bloody priest, he could just easily resurrect flabort!
'Oooooo I'll take the heat off him by roleclaiming priest <3'
Yeah, that doesn't make much sense IG, and you're being as dense as a wall with that one-liner.
Post by: notquitethere on June 12, 2014, 08:47:20 pm
NQT: Once more, you sit back on your pedestal and direct others what to do. You say "it will be interesting to see if he actually does that" with regards to my scumhunting, yet do not scumhunt a great deal yourself in the same post. I'm smelling a contradiction here. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are no ? in your entire post.This is absurd. What do you think reviewing every single player in the game and then voting for the scummiest is called if not scumhunting? An attack and a judgement doesn't have to contain a question mark. I fully anticipate (as Tiruin and you have done) people to respond to my reads and I'll chase up those that don't.
PPE x3: Oh look, NQT asks a semantics question about the plurality of a word.Nope. I was asking IG to clarify that he only has a one-shot revive. Not just semantics by any stretch.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 08:49:11 pm
WolfI'm not going to get started in a semantics argument about the definition of scumhunting, I'm too tired right now.NQT: Once more, you sit back on your pedestal and direct others what to do. You say "it will be interesting to see if he actually does that" with regards to my scumhunting, yet do not scumhunt a great deal yourself in the same post. I'm smelling a contradiction here. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are no ? in your entire post.This is absurd. What do you think reviewing every single player in the game and then voting for the scummiest is called if not scumhunting? An attack and a judgement doesn't have to contain a question mark. I fully anticipate (as Tiruin and you have done) people to respond to my reads and I'll chase up those that don't.
Lolz no I don't.Tiruin: yadda yadda yadda Random stuff that makes no senseSomeone who thinks.
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:57:23 pm
...Random stuff?Lolz no I don't.Tiruin: yadda yadda yadda Random stuff that makes no senseSomeone who thinks.
Alright, I quit.
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2014, 09:38:53 pm
flabort: Why'd you claim there? You do note that such claims are taken into scrutiny, yes?Yeah. Every claim I've seen so far has been analyzed to heck and back. I was aware that it would get picked apart. I claimed there because if I didn't, I'd be branded a third party, or worse, I'd get lynched and not be able to put together my puzzle.
Flabort had yet to respond to my question,Oh, ahah, at first I thought you said "has yet", not "had yet", I was going to ask you what question I missed. :)
Unless I did?
Quote
FlabortAt this point I would angrily claim "Oh, you want me to commit to a lynch? Fine!" and vote whomever had the most votes, being, you, and you'd declare me scum and I'd be lynched.
Votes Imperial, saying "It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory", but this case is wholly withdrawn when Imperial claims to be his lover watching out for him. Then he makes a loose case on Toaster, which is revoked after being revisited. This willingness to re-examine one's cases is admirable, but the lack of commitment to a lynch is also something we often see in scum who don't want to make enemies. My read on him somewhat depends on what he does next, but right now he's a fair candidate for being town. It's possible his spreadsheet method is used as a false screen to show objectivity where there is none.
I'm afraid of mislynching. Not of committing.
I don't think anyone that is currently posting a lot is scum. Toaster, maybe, but my case on him is too weak to pursue.
I would like to take a closer look at Jim Groovester and Ottofar.
Ottofar, you claim Jim and Toony are reliable scum hunters. What do you think of their play so far this game?
Jim You have yet to post anything relevant or, dare I say it, new. You jumped on the IG conversation when it was cooling down, and answered some quick questions (mostly with the answer of being too busy to answer). Do you have anything relevant or new to say?
Post by: Toaster on June 12, 2014, 09:45:07 pm
4mask:
Flabort, check your sources, according to my chart and the lurkertracker the last and only person voted by Toaster is NQT.
Why the hell did you answer this before he had a chance to? This is exactly the trap I was setting for him, and you went and warned him off. It is exactly this reason that people get mad over answering questions for other people.
Flabort:
I could full claim to prove that nobody is directly mentioned in my flavor, but that it does hint towards a lot of magic, and that it doesn't directly contradict his claim. In fact, since he claimed before I revealed my flavor, and his flavor points towards complimenting mine, he seems legit. Do you want me to full claim?
Fair enough. No, I don't want you to full claim. I'm about 90% sure what your role is, and I've certainly got it narrowed to a short list. Considering that, I see no benefit for you claiming further.
Who are you trying to kill?: NQT, 4mask, IG. You are so desperate to get one of them killed, consequences be damned.
You're not actually that desperate, but I'm pretty sure IG is pro-town at the moment, and the other two lean town for me.
Bullshit. Quote me trying to get 4mask killed.
And that read list I said I'd give:
Scummy, roughly most to least:
NQT
IG *More for his claim. I really do not trust it. His play is... spastic.
You, a bit, for spreading bullshit
Something about Jiokuy bugs me a bit, but I'm not sure what.
Townish read:
...Nobody, really. Everyone else hovers around null (or hasn't posted enough to give a read [Tiruin, Jim, ZU])
Wow that's a weak case.
At least you admit it.
NQT:
Zombie Urist
Does he only post from his phone?
Typically, yes.
Toaster, One of my goals for today is that whoever ends up being lynched, every player knows that they are responsible for it. That means everyone has to back a case. I'm not sure IG is the best target yet, hence why I'm still chasing other people up, but I'm sure I'm going to have a vote on someone for a good reason by the end of the day. Getting everyone's insight on the most interesting things to happen during the day increases engagement and gives us all more to work with. Scum want to stay silent when town are getting lynched for bad reasons, and, though they don't want to be obvious about it, they want to prevent their scumbuddies being lynched. Asking everyone about the players up for lynching makes it certain that scum will have commented on the lynch.
Does that all make sense? I'm not saying 'hey everyone, let's lynch such and such', I'm saying 'such and such is looking like they might be lynched, and if they are then you are partly culpable for letting it happen so what are your reasons?'
That reasoning is all well and good, but frankly I'm not sure I trust your intentions. The first time you did it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365048#msg5365048) was two full days before day end. Just a bit over 24 hours from game start, even! That's waaay too far in advance to be playing that sort of card. You then did it again 12 hours later. Sure, getting people to talk is good, but I don't trust where you are going with this. It almost looks like you're setting up to drive a mislynch on someone D2 if they're on a mislynch today, especially the underlined bit in the quote above.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 09:46:26 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 12, 2014, 09:53:12 pm
Post by: zombie urist on June 12, 2014, 09:57:02 pm
Extend I actually don't usually post from phone but I've been busier than I expected at work especially since we are launching our product soon.
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2014, 10:08:28 pm
I have to say I'm neutral on the NQT vs Toaster argument: if someone got mislynched, I'd feel it would be partially my fault, but mostly the fault of whomever I suspect of being scum and/or is voting the lynchee.
Meaning, I agree with NQT that everyone has a hand in mislynching, but not everyone is quite as to blame as the people who push everyone else into the lynch.
@Toaster:
I'm afraid I cannot find where you were pushing for 4mask as a target, but I was thinking at the moment I had seen it.
This is one reason for my scumometer, so I can keep track of who said what, and one reason I need to refine it and my use of it.
Yes, I admit my case is weak, once I actually go over my notes. So I backed down off my vote.
Speaking of Jiokuy...
Jiokuy Where are you? I have your last post # down at 178, that's on page 3. It's page 7 already. Do you want to weigh in? Maybe give us your reads?
Post by: Jiokuy on June 12, 2014, 11:20:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm still seeing Zombie Urist as a null due to inactivity, but I under stand why. Extend for more information. (and to give myself some time to actually hunt now that I am home)
I feel like this game despite being very active, has failed to achieve much of anything. All of the side (not IG / Flabort) hunts seem to be met with deflection, or fizzle out. I'm slightly afraid this might be a game with very few townies in it from how everyone has been playing. I wish I could spark a new debate, I just haven't played enough games to know how to ask the hard questions. . .
Tiruin I really wish you hadn't stirred up the IG pot again. It makes it really hard to get any reads. . .(yeah I know you left)
Ugh, Including myself we have ~5 active lurkers. The 3-4 people who are scum hunting alternate between jabbing each other, attacking IG for information, and deflecting each others jabs. I see barely any straight answers from any of you. I guess I'm used to a lot less emotional mafia. :l I'm looking for the ephemeral good question, but I can't even see who to target. Who do I vote for when the town are acting scummy?
With that said. I'm really curious about the "bad stuff" IG said his revive had a 50% chance of stirring up. Why again would we even consider taking the risk of letting something out?
I'm sorry, this is such a cluster of chaos.
Post by: Jack A T on June 13, 2014, 01:09:08 am
Jack basically covered what I think about NQT. He seems to be asking "hey guys whats our opinion on lynching xxx" and not having to form his own.zombie urist: Phone post or not, this is lazy. I request a detailed response to NQT's defense and reads post.
First note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5338963#msg5338963) -- stuff stuff flabort third party :OTiruin: I do not think this is the post you meant to link to.
Because I'm relying too much on an aggregate and not enough on concrete evidence.flabort: And how do you intend to fix this?
Ugh, Including myself we have ~5 active lurkers. The 3-4 people who are scum hunting alternate between jabbing each other, attacking IG for information, and deflecting each others jabs. I see barely any straight answers from any of you.Jiokuy: Please name names. Also, can you show examples of answers that are not straight?
notquitethere: I recognize that you have given reasons for your attention-pushing behaviour. I reject them. There is a disconnect between your expressed views on the importance of everyone's thoughts on lynches being stated and your actions.
You assert that everyone should be open about their opinions on each major lynch push. For some reason, though, it took Persus pointing out the lack of your opinion on IG for you to give even the vague preliminary thoughts you gave on him. Why didn't you give at least that much in the first place? Why hold yourself to a lower standard than everyone else here?
Quick questions: Do you normally prioritize this sort of procedure over voting for suspects? Did you feel that your vote would do any good where it was?You also take a shot at 4maskwolf, and say you suspect him. For some reason, though, you would rather sit back and keep your old, reasonless flabort vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365048#msg5365048), instead of voting for someone you suspect.Flabort had yet to respond to my question, I didn't want to unvote before getting a response back. Standard practice really. I knew there wasn't a super hurry as I'd be about to post plenty before the end of the day.
Post by: Ottofar on June 13, 2014, 02:46:33 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 13, 2014, 03:18:06 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 13, 2014, 04:04:02 am
Oh, ahah, at first I thought you said "has yet", not "had yet", I was going to ask you what question I missed. :)No, you're fine. And being willing to re-examine your own cases (without necessarily second-guessing yourself) is a good town trait. Unless you do anything ridiculous, I think you're OK to live today.
Unless I did?
Toaster
Apparently not, according to his latest post. But it's nice of you to defend him.Zombie UristTypically, yes.
Does he only post from his phone?
That reasoning is all well and good, but frankly I'm not sure I trust your intentions. The first time you did it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365048#msg5365048) was two full days before day end. Just a bit over 24 hours from game start, even! That's waaay too far in advance to be playing that sort of card. You then did it again 12 hours later.You're right that it was a bit too early to do that. I was a bit confused over how much longer the day was going to be, but that's not really an excuse. If we played the game from scratch I'd use this tactic later in the day. This makes me enthusiastic, but it doesn't make me scum.
Sure, getting people to talk is good, but I don't trust where you are going with this. It almost looks like you're setting up to drive a mislynch on someone D2 if they're on a mislynch today, especially the underlined bit in the quote above.Obviously not everyone who mislynches someone is goign to be scum. No, nothing like that. I'm more interested in looking at reactions and things should scum flip. Who was in favour of doing what, etc. My day 1 technique has been to try to elicit as much useful information to mine if necessary on future days. I also hope that we lynch scum today, and by making everyone aware of who is going to be lynched at any given moment, I hope for a more considered lynch than often occurs.
I can see how you might think any of this is poor play, but I'm not sure how you're jumping from that to thinking it's a particularly scum play. I almost always play in ways people disagree with: am I scum in every game?
ZU
@NQT I disagree that everyone is responsible for mislynches. At least not everyone is equally responsible. It looks to me that you want to equalize the blame for mislynches.I'm not trying to equalise the blame: but point out that all of town allows mislynches to happen when they don't press more compelling cases. No one gets a free pass to play poorly. I understand your busy, but do you really think I'm the best candidate for lynching today? And will your reasons stand up tomorrow?
Jiokuy
I feel like this game despite being very active, has failed to achieve much of anything. All of the side (not IG / Flabort) hunts seem to be met with deflection, or fizzle out. I'm slightly afraid this might be a game with very few townies in it from how everyone has been playing. I wish I could spark a new debate, I just haven't played enough games to know how to ask the hard questions. . .Well, right now I'm the lynch candidate— do you think ZU, Toaster and Jack have a strong case? What do you think of the players that posted a dozen times or less?
I guess I'm used to a lot less emotional mafia. :l I'm looking for the ephemeral good question, but I can't even see who to target. Who do I vote for when the town are acting scummy?What counts as scummy play in your eyes?
With that said. I'm really curious about the "bad stuff" IG said his revive had a 50% chance of stirring up. Why again would we even consider taking the risk of letting something out?It's a good question. It depends what kind of risk we feel like taking. 50/50 isn't amazing odds. I was Priest in the last game and raised someone and they were fine, but they still got lynched because no one could trust them. Both town and scum got a free night action out of the whole debacle, but as it ended in a scum win that wasn't really to town's favour. Are you in favour of no revives then?
Jack
You assert that everyone should be open about their opinions on each major lynch push. For some reason, though, it took Persus pointing out the lack of your opinion on IG for you to give even the vague preliminary thoughts you gave on him. Why didn't you give at least that much in the first place? Why hold yourself to a lower standard than everyone else here?I knew that I was going to go and do a measured read on everyone before the end of the day and comment on whatever lynch was happening. I just wanted to be sure everyone else was going to do that too. I can trust myself to eventually act in a day, but not anyone else. But I can see that in the short run that comes across as lazy or passive. But now that I've delivered on my promise of reads and am commenting on the case against the lynch candidate (myself), can you see that my apparent double-standards weren't really double-standards? You're right that in asking things of others I should have been leading from the front, but is this kind of mistake a specifically scum mistake?
Quick questions: Do you normally prioritize this sort of procedure over voting for suspects? Did you feel that your vote would do any good where it was?Yes, on Day 1, definitely. I don't move my vote during the day until my questions have been responded to and worries on such and such a point are allayed: I believe in proactive use of a pressure vote on Day 1. The caveat to this is that before the end of the day, I'll always switch to the most scummiest player regardless; unless I need to break a tie, in which I'll vote whichever of the tied candidates is most suspicious.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 13, 2014, 04:32:49 am
If the day has not been extended then let's get an extension going.
@notquitethere: Quick to accuse aren't you? Afraid you will slip up and reveal your true nature?
Why not vote him since it's the RVS?
Also, I checked the timestamps on the posts and I can believe you were in the middle of typing your post when NQT posted. That's why I unvoted without waiting for a response.
When did you check and/or notice this?
*reads above post before my post*
Woah wait Toaster. While the option for survivors to side with the scumteam exists, its an option and not a fact that they will side with them.
Did you vote Toaster because of a difference of opinion in survivor play style?
I was assuming flabort was town at that point
The only thing I know about flabort is that he is town.
Assuming he is town and knowing he is town are two different things. Please clarify.
Im perfectly willing to revive mislynches, everyone.
I'd rather mislynches stay dead than have a 50% chance of coming back as something worse.
I think you were convinced you were going to be lynched, and so you fakeclaimed a third party role in order to prevent yourself from getting lynched.
Now, I haven't played very much with Imperial Guardsman, or at all, but does he seem like the kind of player who has the mental capability of pulling off a third-party fakeclaim with any degree of competency?
Your casual dismissal of his claim makes me suspect.
What the hell are you doing??? I have a pretty good feeling that you're being upfront about this, but unless you're bluffing the crap out of scum into killing Flabort you've completely screwed yourself and it's only Day 1! Have you read the third Witches' Coven (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125287.0)? Do you know what happened to Tiruin after she blabbed about being a third-party helper for the town on Day 1? She fucking lost hard!! I hate big mouths, what are you doing claiming this early and endangering yourself and Flabort? Why can't you keep some damn secrecy from the players who will be killing us during the night??
I'm curious to know why Imperial Guardsman's horrible play is provoking such a reaction.
*angrily storms out and goes drinking with Jim and ZU
*brofist*
Jim You have yet to post anything relevant or, dare I say it, new. You jumped on the IG conversation when it was cooling down, and answered some quick questions (mostly with the answer of being too busy to answer). Do you have anything relevant or new to say?
You don't say. It's almost like I have not been physically present to actually do anything with this game.
Who gives a crud if a conversation about a topic is winding down if I still have questions? I'm going to ask them anyway.
It's not all that I have on him, however, I'd have to go over my notes and cross-reference them in order to form a concise thought.
And he's slowly turning that rating around now.
What? How?
Wow that's a weak case. Unvote.
I agree with you that your case on Toaster was weak. Why did you vote him in the first place?
Toaster, maybe, but my case on him is too weak to pursue.
So you suspect Toaster but you don't have enough dirt on him to justify a vote? Or is it because you fear reprisal if you do vote him? From your posts it sounds more like the latter.
I have to say I'm neutral on the NQT vs Toaster argument: if someone got mislynched, I'd feel it would be partially my fault, but mostly the fault of whomever I suspect of being scum and/or is voting the lynchee.
Meaning, I agree with NQT that everyone has a hand in mislynching, but not everyone is quite as to blame as the people who push everyone else into the lynch.
I don't understand why you are weighing in.
Groovester: Now that you are up to date, could you tell us your general feeling about each player?
Jack A.T. - Reasonable attacks and arguments. Is active and making efforts to pursue topics of interest. Null read to slight town.
Jim Groovester - Is the coolest cat ever. Town.
ToonyMan - Hasn't really posted that much. Got angry at Imperial Guardsman's play. Currently do not have a strong opinion of him. Null read.
flabort - Appears to be playing a passive game and is more concerned with his survival than finding and hunting scum. Leaning scum.
Persus13 - I can't remember his contributions but he doesn't believe Imperial Guardsman's claim and that bugs me. Feels like a lazy scum move.
notquitethere - I have no strong opinion about notquitethere. The asking people about the top lynch candidates does concern me but his explanation for why is reasonable. Null read. Apparently he's the current leader in votes? I don't think he should be lynched.
Tiruin - Looks like typical Tiruin stuff to me, despite low activity. Null read.
Toaster - Looks like typical Toaster stuff to me. The usual strong day game. Null read.
zombie urist - Terse, short, infrequent posts. Seems like ZU to me. Null read.
4maskwolf - Early in Day 1 reacted strongly to notquitethere (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5363727#msg5363727) and Ottofar (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364826#msg5364826) for no apparent reasonable reason. He amended his opinion about Ottofar after examining the time stamps. Past that point, does not cause me any suspicions. Is snippy. Reads neutral.
Ottofar - Ottofar currently conforms to my expectations of Ottofar. Null read.
Jiokuy - I have no read on this guy because it seems like he has barely played at all.
Imperial Guardsman - I have confirmed my initial impression that he has no idea how to play mafia. I believe everything about his claim except for what he says flabort's alignment is. Third Party.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm let's go with flabort.
Post by: Ottofar on June 13, 2014, 08:32:51 am
NQT
Ottofar, you've been quite narrowly focused. What do you think of Persus13's play so far?
I think he's been somewhat invisible, with a couple of posts with better content. I don't think he's activelurking though. His reasoning on why IG is falseclaiming his flavour doesn't, to me, seem too sound. I'm kinda null on him now.
Flaba flab
Ottofar, you claim Jim and Toony are reliable scum hunters. What do you think of their play so far this game?
They've been posting very little, ToonyMan has 4 walls of text with content, Jim has one. I'm trusting it'll get better from here, at least for Jim.
Also, I'd like to have IG live the day, we know everything about him, so his death wouldn't be too informational. He's a good vig target, though.
Instead, Unvote IG, Vote Jim. How come you focus on that one guy that's voting you?
Post by: Persus13 on June 13, 2014, 09:12:52 am
Persus why did u reapond for Toaster?I responded because I thought that question was odd. If flabort was referring to IG, it wasn't a mislynch, because Ig's either scum (or third-party). If it was referring to anyone else, how did flabort know it would be a mislynch? If I see something strange, I poke at it.
If someone got mislynched, I'd feel it would be partially my fault, but mostly the fault of whomever I suspect of being scum and/or is voting the lynchee.Have you ever lynched town before? The first one is always the hardest.
Jim:
Now, I haven't played very much with Imperial Guardsman, or at all, but does he seem like the kind of player who has the mental capability of pulling off a third-party fakeclaim with any degree of competency?
Sometimes. In Prince of the Mafia he's helped lynch/kill scum with some impressive reasoning. But I feel his claim isn't completely competent because I reread the thread, and noticed his past vote wasn't consistent with his claim.
notquitethere: Your top scum pick is a guy who was voting you because he was just posting from his phone?
Zombie Urist: What's your case on NQT?
Jiokuy:
I'm still seeing Zombie Urist as a null due to inactivity, but I under stand why.Why did you just provide a read on ZU? Why not provide reads on everyone?
With that said. I'm really curious about the "bad stuff" IG said his revive had a 50% chance of stirring up. Why again would we even consider taking the risk of letting something out?Priest revives have a chance of reviving a player as an SK. I assume IG has something similar if he's a third-party.
Post by: notquitethere on June 13, 2014, 09:28:39 am
Jim
If you believe IG's claim, then why don't you believe the part about Flabort's innocence?
Ottofar
Do you think Jim's point against Flabort is completely illegitimate?
Persus
Apparently he's posting from work rather than his phone, he's just quite busy. I'm voting him because he hasn't articulated a case and frequently ignores my responses. Failing to communicate with the person you're voting is a pretty typical scum move. It's looking like we're going to have an extension and I'll be making sure I'm targeting the person I find scummiest by the end of the day.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 09:33:33 am
Sure, I'll throw out an extend.I'm going to answer this question for myself, since this question triggered me to remember something. This is the flavor of IG, in his own words:
Jim
If you believe IG's claim, then why don't you believe the part about Flabort's innocence?
I am a mage in exile for murdering a guard who was protecting magical resources I needed to attempt to remove the Cultist God in supernatural 6 from memory, removing said gods power. It failed because cultist win in Sup 6. I need Flabort alive because he apparently decends from a long lost tree of warriors who fought the servants of these dark gods and one of his ancestors apparently weakened said god enough to force him into slumber. I must bring him to the point where the first follower of said cult god was contacted by the god, and use my magic and his blood to open a portal to said god's domain to slay him.Nowhere in this does it say that Flabort is innocent: it says he is anti-cult. So if he is mafia, there isn't a cult in this game.
IG: Does your flavor actually say that Flabort is guaranteed town and this got lost in the paraphrasing, or did you just infer that from the flavor?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 13, 2014, 10:50:22 am
4maskwolf: Imperial Guardsman, ToonyMan
flabort: Jim Groovester
Imperial Guardsman: Persus13
Jim Groovester: flabort, Ottofar
notquitethere: Jack A.T., Toaster, zombie urist
zombie urist: notquitethere
Day has been extended to ~4pm Pacific Monday. 1 Extension remains this day.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 13, 2014, 11:40:19 am
IG: Does your flavor actually say that Flabort is guaranteed town and this got lost in the paraphrasing, or did you just infer that from the flavor?It says that I must protect Flabort, an innocent member of the town.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 11:46:58 am
Thank you.IG: Does your flavor actually say that Flabort is guaranteed town and this got lost in the paraphrasing, or did you just infer that from the flavor?It says that I must protect Flabort, an innocent member of the town.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 11:57:05 am
It says that I must protect Flabort, an innocent member of the town.The only problem with your claim of this is that you would say that even if it told you that he was scum, because you want him to stay alive. I'm going to reserve judgement on this matter for now, it's just food for thought.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 13, 2014, 12:11:27 pm
That would invalidate the flavor.It says that I must protect Flabort, an innocent member of the town.The only problem with your claim of this is that you would say that even if it told you that he was scum, because you want him to stay alive. I'm going to reserve judgement on this matter for now, it's just food for thought.
I NEED A CULTIST ALIVE TO STOP THE CULT HURR
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 12:17:38 pm
Not all of the mafia types are cults, bud. There are several other scum types and anti-town roles in this game.That would invalidate the flavor.It says that I must protect Flabort, an innocent member of the town.The only problem with your claim of this is that you would say that even if it told you that he was scum, because you want him to stay alive. I'm going to reserve judgement on this matter for now, it's just food for thought.
I NEED A CULTIST ALIVE TO STOP THE CULT HURR
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 13, 2014, 12:19:26 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 12:20:46 pm
I havent seen a supernatural with 2 thirds, and theres a 1/3 chance of Werewolves. The other two and the only other two I have seen are Vampires ( who can cult ) and CultistsBut your flavor specifically refers to the cult itself, as in cultists.
But enough of this bickering.
Post by: Ottofar on June 13, 2014, 12:23:23 pm
Ottofar
Do you think Jim's point against Flabort is completely illegitimate?
Nope, I just wonder why he chose to focus on him specifically.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 12:24:59 pm
Ottofar: What is your current case against Jim? Do you believe his reads are wrong?
Post by: Ottofar on June 13, 2014, 12:31:25 pm
Ottofar: What is your current case against Jim? Do you believe his reads are wrong?
Being absent, then voting the guy calling him out on it, even though it was reasoned well enough. Also, there was something with Toaster, but I don't exactly remember what it was. I'll read back soonish. I don't really disagree with his reads.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 12:49:09 pm
You haven't said anything this morning despite posting in other threads several times. Who do you think is the most suspicious player right now.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 13, 2014, 01:12:59 pm
I can't control what you do, but I wouldn't want a player on my side who isn't playing to win. I suppose a completely third-party player could do whatever the hell they want though. Not that I would support that at all.This sounds remarkably like "my fun is more important than your fun" to me. I can play however I like, thanks. There are certain social norms governing the scum, but if I was a loner third-party survivor then I wouldn't have any strictures on how I play. I could claim day one if I wanted to.Bullshit. Play to your wincon. A scum player doesn't betray his team and reveal them at the start does he?Nope.Am I seriously the only one who plans, as a survivor, to work on Town's side always?Yep.
Toony: When you get back from drinking with your buddies, could you give us your reads. Thanks.Sure.
Scum
4maskwolf - just as hyper as IG but has nothing to show for it, super defensive and reactive, doesn't believe IG's claim either I think? It depends on the weather.
zombie urist - same play as usual, could easily be scum from my experience playing games with him
Ottofar - same as ZU
notquitethere - feels on edge, just as protective as 4maskwolf, I don't suspect him enough right now to lynch this day
Tiruin - seems halfhearted, could just be busy
Jim Groovester - same as Tiruin
Imperial Guardsman - very likely a third-party like he claims, has a 50% revive so he's like a priest we can't trust or rely on, posts way too much
Toaster - nothing exceedingly suspicious, doesn't believe IG's claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370215#msg5370215)
flabort - probably town power role, probably gonna die
Jack A T - haven't had a problem with any of his posts, no scum reads
Jiokuy - seems genuine, no issues yet
Persus13 - same as Jack A T
Not Scum
This is directed at Toaster, however:
Toaster:Calm
You haven't said anything this morning despite posting in other threads several times. Who do you think is the most suspicious player right now.
Down.
Deep
Breaths.
Some people (like me) only have time to read the thread and make a post once a day.
@JimBot:
I got angry at Imperial Guardsman because I was having terrible flash backs to Witches' Coven. That really hurt the game flow and the game's enjoyment was dampened quite a bit for me.
I have a forewarning. I'll be away for the weekend in a place with no Wi-Fi. I don't think I'll be able to post on Saturday or Sunday.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 01:22:53 pm
4maskwolf - [1]just as hyper as IG but has [2]nothing to show for it, [3]super defensive and reactive, [4]doesn't believe IG's claim either I think? [5]It depends on the weather.[1]Assuming you're talking about my post count, is there a problem with posting a lot?
[2]Other than my scumhunting, you mean?
[3]Would you rather I rolled over and gotten lynched?
[4a]I actually do believe his claim of third party
[4b]And it matters if I believe him why?
[5]Wut?
Now, Toony: you are listing two people who have posted very little over someone who you actually have a complaint with on your scumminess meter. Why is that? Trying to make it seem that NQT isn't a big threat?
Post by: flabort on June 13, 2014, 01:35:05 pm
By paying more attention to WHY my scumometer says what it does, by going back and reviewing everyone's posts and my own notes.Because I'm relying too much on an aggregate and not enough on concrete evidence.flabort: And how do you intend to fix this?
By reading each new post even more thoroughly, and going back and reading the quoted posts more thoroughly, and the posts quoted there more, etc.
By finding concrete evidence rather than saying stuff like "I'm too lazy to find the quote, but I think you said this" (boy did that one ever go wrong :P).
It's not all that I have on him, however, I'd have to go over my notes and cross-reference them in order to form a concise thought.
And he's slowly turning that rating around now.
What? How?
Quote
Because my scum-finding tool, which we have determined to be flawed, said to. Right now it wants me to go after ToonyMan and IG, but obviously I've got nothing on Toony yet, and IG has been all but confirmed to be benign third party.Wow that's a weak case. Unvote.
I agree with you that your case on Toaster was weak. Why did you vote him in the first place?
Quote
Mostly the former.Toaster, maybe, but my case on him is too weak to pursue.
So you suspect Toaster but you don't have enough dirt on him to justify a vote? Or is it because you fear reprisal if you do vote him? From your posts it sounds more like the latter.
Quote
Because it is a relevant and current conversation, that isn't the same tired out "Is IG scum" conversation.I have to say I'm neutral on the NQT vs Toaster argument: if someone got mislynched, I'd feel it would be partially my fault, but mostly the fault of whomever I suspect of being scum and/or is voting the lynchee.
Meaning, I agree with NQT that everyone has a hand in mislynching, but not everyone is quite as to blame as the people who push everyone else into the lynch.
I don't understand why you are weighing in.
Yes. And, as a (at least partially) puzzler style player, I kick myself each time it happens.If someone got mislynched, I'd feel it would be partially my fault, but mostly the fault of whomever I suspect of being scum and/or is voting the lynchee.Have you ever lynched town before? The first one is always the hardest.
Post by: flabort on June 13, 2014, 01:36:12 pm
By actually working with the town now. He's still in the red, but not as bad.
But as the tool has been proven to be flawed...
Post by: Toaster on June 13, 2014, 02:18:27 pm
Ugh, Including myself we have ~5 active lurkers. The 3-4 people who are scum hunting...
So what do you call the rest of the players?
Tiruin:
unvote
If you weren't up for replacement I'd give you hell over this.
NQT:
This makes me enthusiastic, but it doesn't make me scum.
There's enthusiasm, then there's tripping over yourself to do it.
Sure, getting people to talk is good, but I don't trust where you are going with this. It almost looks like you're setting up to drive a mislynch on someone D2 if they're on a mislynch today, especially the underlined bit in the quote above.Obviously not everyone who mislynches someone is goign to be scum. No, nothing like that. I'm more interested in looking at reactions and things should scum flip. Who was in favour of doing what, etc. My day 1 technique has been to try to elicit as much useful information to mine if necessary on future days. I also hope that we lynch scum today, and by making everyone aware of who is going to be lynched at any given moment, I hope for a more considered lynch than often occurs.
You're practically pointing the finger at everyone; both those on a theoretical mislynch and everyone else not voting enough for actual scum. That's over the line, in my book.
I can see how you might think any of this is poor play, but I'm not sure how you're jumping from that to thinking it's a particularly scum play. I almost always play in ways people disagree with: am I scum in every game?
Don't strawman me.
I'm not trying to equalise the blame: but point out that all of town allows mislynches to happen when they don't press more compelling cases.
Oh wait; that is exactly what you're saying.
The caveat to this is that before the end of the day, I'll always switch to the most scummiest player regardless; unless I need to break a tie, in which I'll vote whichever of the tied candidates is most suspicious.
So to whom are you going to switch?
Ottofar:
Also, I'd like to have IG live the day, we know everything about him, so his death wouldn't be too informational. He's a good vig target, though.
Why do you think he's holding nothing back? I certainly agree he isn't town, and that it's likely he's third party, but I'm not at all convinced everything he's said is on the up and up.
Persus:
With that said. I'm really curious about the "bad stuff" IG said his revive had a 50% chance of stirring up. Why again would we even consider taking the risk of letting something out?Priest revives have a chance of reviving a player as an SK. I assume IG has something similar if he's a third-party.
Not just SK; I got raised as a survivor once. (I had to claim it too, and then got immediately lynched over it. Survivors get it easy these days, mumble grumble)
4mask:
Toaster:
You haven't said anything this morning despite posting in other threads several times. Who do you think is the most suspicious player right now.
Mafia takes a much larger time commitment per post.
NQT, which is why I'm voting him. I think the why should be obvious from above and previous exchanges with him.
Flabort: It's okay to have gut feelings of distrust of someone, but be prepared to back them up if you act on them.
Post by: Persus13 on June 13, 2014, 02:38:39 pm
I havent seen a supernatural with 2 thirds, and theres a 1/3 chance of Werewolves. The other two and the only other two I have seen are Vampires ( who can cult ) and CultistsSupernatural 1 had two third parties.
Will post more later. RL stuff. Also, I have graduation plus the related celebrations and visiting relatives over the weekend, so don't expect much from me this weekend.
Post by: Toaster on June 13, 2014, 02:42:22 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 13, 2014, 03:20:25 pm
You're practically pointing the finger at everyone; both those on a theoretical mislynch and everyone else not voting enough for actual scum. That's over the line, in my book.It's my job in this game to suspect everyone and my tactic is to coax substance from every player. If someone is lynched by only three votes and there are 13 players, then nine players didn't believe in that lynch and let it happen because they didn't organise themselves against it. I held this before the game and I'm going to have the exact same position on this when we finish the game, how does this position make me scum? Please, spell it out for all of us.
Well present an actual case!I can see how you might think any of this is poor play, but I'm not sure how you're jumping from that to thinking it's a particularly scum play. I almost always play in ways people disagree with: am I scum in every game?Don't strawman me.
There's a difference between 'equalising the blame' and holding people accountable. You can see that, right?I'm not trying to equalise the blame: but point out that all of town allows mislynches to happen when they don't press more compelling cases.Oh wait; that is exactly what you're saying.
I find ZU the scummiest right now, I'll reassess things as the days go on and we'll see where I get to on Monday when the deadline hits.The caveat to this is that before the end of the day, I'll always switch to the most scummiest player regardless; unless I need to break a tie, in which I'll vote whichever of the tied candidates is most suspicious.So to whom are you going to switch?
You're not exactly convincing me that you've got much of a grasp on the game:
And that read list I said I'd give:Do you intend to form more substantial read by the end of the day?
Scummy, roughly most to least:
NQT
IG *More for his claim. I really do not trust it. His play is... spastic.
You, a bit, for spreading bullshit
Something about Jiokuy bugs me a bit, but I'm not sure what.
Townish read:
...Nobody, really. Everyone else hovers around null (or hasn't posted enough to give a read [Tiruin, Jim, ZU])
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 13, 2014, 03:33:08 pm
It's my job in this game to suspect everyone and my tactic is to coax substance from every player. If someone is lynched by only three votes and there are 13 players, then nine players didn't believe in that lynch and let it happen because they didn't organise themselves against it. I held this before the game and I'm going to have the exact same position on this when we finish the game, how does this position make me scum? Please, spell it out for all of us.This is my point of view on the matter. Not on how it makes you scum, but on why I don't agree with that view.
People not voting for someone does not necessarily mean they don't want that person lynched, though. Even townies sometimes shy away from joining what could be perceived later as a bandwagon, particularly close to day end, even if they thought that person was scum. There are also cases where people don't know who to lynch, so they don't cast their vote by the end of the day. This is particularly prevalent on Day One, where there is little to no information to go on. If they don't smell anything fishy or see anything wrong with the points of others, but don't find them convincing enough for a vote or, as is also possible, are trying to avoid accusations of bandwagoning, so they stay away from the vote.
One of the things that bugs me about the way I see a lot of you all think about the game is that there seems to be this belief that a townie shouldn't care about being seen as scum, because they have nothing to hide. There are certain times when this is true, but by performing any action (like perceived bandwagoning) that could be seen as scummy often leads to a mislynch of them, which they also don't want. So townies are stuck in this double-standard, where they are told not to worry as much about looking slightly scummy and yet are held accountable for accidentally drawing the wrath of the town and getting themselves lynched. For example, what if someone delivered the hammer vote (in a game with hammers) on what they believed were excellent grounds, but were judged later as being faulty and misguided. That player is going to have a hell of a time not being lynched as an overeager scum, particularly if they are perceived as new or inexperienced (even though they might have a firm grasp on the game). I say particularly for those perceived as new or inexperienced because it is easy to jump to the conclusion that "oh, yeah, their just being a silly newb scum", whereas someone deemed "experienced" will often at least be given a fair hearing.
Sorry, just my two cents on the issue. That went on longer than I had intended.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 13, 2014, 04:45:55 pm
Instead, Unvote IG, Vote Jim. How come you focus on that one guy that's voting you?
I voted the guy with the least impressive game, in my opinion. The vote on me is incidental.
Being absent
Apparently being legitimately absent makes me scummy.
Jim
If you believe IG's claim, then why don't you believe the part about Flabort's innocence?
It would be the easiest part to fake and arguably the most important. And Imperial Guardsman has shown that he is willing to attempt ploys and duplicities.
Sometimes. In Prince of the Mafia he's helped lynch/kill scum with some impressive reasoning. But I feel his claim isn't completely competent because I reread the thread, and noticed his past vote wasn't consistent with his claim.
Do you think he's capable of deliberately using WIFOM to his advantage? Or, at the very least, attempting to do so?
and IG has been all but confirmed to be benign third party.
I'm not so sure about this part but whatever.
Because it is a relevant and current conversation, that isn't the same tired out "Is IG scum" conversation.
Does weighing in affect your read of either of the players involved? Does stating your opinion of either of them affect who you are going to vote?
Jim: What is the difference, for you, between a null read and a neutral read?
Null ----> No read; either not enough information or present information does not provide good enough indication for a read on alignment
Neutral ----> Done scummy and towny stuff in equal parts
NQT, which is why I'm voting him. I think the why should be obvious from above and previous exchanges with him.
Maybe it is but could you summarize for me anyway?
Post by: Jack A T on June 14, 2014, 03:50:13 am
One of the things that bugs me about the way I see a lot of you all think about the game is that there seems to be this belief that a townie shouldn't care about being seen as scum, because they have nothing to hide.4maskwolf:
Spoiler: Theory stuff spoiler (click to show/hide)
But now that I've delivered on my promise of reads [...] can you see that my apparent double-standards weren't really double-standards?notquitethere: Considering it took Persus requesting reads and pointing out your lack of explicit thoughts for you to even promise said reads, and the fact that you were under significant fire for your relevant behaviour when you finally bothered to give your thoughts on the game, the fact that you finally gave reads is not nearly as helpful to you here as you seem to think it is.
[...] and am commenting on the case against the lynch candidate (myself), can you see that my apparent double-standards weren't really double-standards?... you can't be fucking serious.
You're right that in asking things of others I should have been leading from the front, but is this kind of mistake a specifically scum mistake?When transparency and making sure that everyone, including scum, comments on likely lynches are your asserted goals, and you are opaque and avoid commenting, there is clearly something wrong. While town is quite capable of doing just about every scummy act ever identified (I don't think I've ever seen town claim scum, but that's about all that they haven't done at some point in some game here), you were not merely failing to lead from the front. You were staying silent as to your opinions, taking no stance but that others should take stances.
notquitethere: Your top scum pick is a guy who was voting you because he was just posting from his phone?Persus13: As much as I lean towards NQT being scum, I fail to see how voting reasons that include "Only his very last post shows any sort of sliver of proactive engagement" equal a case purely for zombie urist posting from his phone. This seems like a bit of a stretch. Please explain.
Why do you think he's holding nothing back? I certainly agree he [IG] isn't town, and that it's likely he's third party, but I'm not at all convinced everything he's said is on the up and up.Toaster: Interesting. What parts of IGs statements do you least trust?
flabort: Alright. My one piece of advice: remember that your spreadsheet is a tool for tracking your thoughts. Do not let it become your thoughts, like it did earlier.
Post by: notquitethere on June 14, 2014, 04:50:24 am
Before the day ends I'm intending to reread the thread and give my full reads on all players. But here's how I see things so far:
Which I later followed up with as was always my intentions. You prefer the narrative in which I, the wily scum, try to sit back and not give my opinions until coaxed by others. If that were my intention, why would I go about consistently bringing up the need for reads and reflections from others? Do you think I'd think no one would notice if I did none of that myself before the end of the day?
Also, could you give me your reads please?
ZU
Remember this?
ZUProbably.nqt: if i needed toPhone post. I've been there. Do you think you're going to be engaged enough with the game to be able to give your reads on Friday?
Are you able to give your reads by Monday now?
Wolf, Tiruin (or her replacement), Jiokuy
Deadline hits Monday now. You going to use your vote before then? Jiokuy especially has yet to press a single lynching case yet.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 09:05:26 am
Wolf, Tiruin (or her replacement), JiokuyIf I see something worth pursuing, yes. Currently I'm processing the various arguments against various people. I'll scumhunt later.
Deadline hits Monday now. You going to use your vote before then? Jiokuy especially has yet to press a single lynching case yet.
Post by: Ottofar on June 14, 2014, 10:13:36 am
Being absent
Apparently being legitimately absent makes me scummy.
It's not a tell, but voting the guy voting you for it might be.
Anyway, I didn't, on a quick reread find the thing between you and Toaster I mentioned, so, I'll just Unvote Jim now. Bit in a hurry again, but might post in the evening.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 11:33:03 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 11:34:36 am
Oh, and request replacement, I have a surgery tomorrow. Bluh. Sorry about the late notice, people.Let TWS take over 4mask Meph. :)
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 11:43:42 am
Ah, right, Sheepy did say he could replace in temporarily. And if the game goes on too long, I can replace back in if he is still alive.Oh, and request replacement, I have a surgery tomorrow. Bluh. Sorry about the late notice, people.Let TWS take over 4mask Meph. :)
Post by: notquitethere on June 15, 2014, 01:52:48 pm
When you're caught up with the game, could you make a case against someone Sheep?
Post by: notquitethere on June 15, 2014, 02:11:17 pm
Part 1
If everyone gives their reads on all the other players, it's easier to sniff out aggregate suspicions and spot incongruities in player's understandings of the game. It's pretty uncontroversially a Good Thing to have.
We've got about 28 hours left, which should be plenty of time for the remaining players to give their reads.
Players Who Have Given Reads
In Chronological Order
NQT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5369928#msg5369928)
Jim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5371011#msg5371011)
Toonyman (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372069#msg5372069)
Unhelpful Reads
Flabort And The Everyone Is Town Number Method (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365549#msg5365549)
King "Everyone else hovers around null" Toaster (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370215#msg5370215)
Players Yet To Give Reads
Jack A.T.
Persus13
Tiruin, or her replacement
zombie urist
Ottofar
Jiokuy
Imperial Guardsman
(Apologies if I missed anyone)
Post by: Ottofar on June 15, 2014, 02:44:21 pm
Post by: flabort on June 15, 2014, 05:00:39 pm
Jack AT: Very active during RQS. First to argue with IG, before we though IG was scum before we thought he was 3P.
Well reasoned posts and confident. Gets at least one post per 50 posts, usually more (page 5 was mostly PFP). Wants a vig to shoot guardsman.
Has a case against NQT. Overall Town lean. (+6)
Jim Groovester: Completely absent during RQS. Still mostly absent, citing busy.
Not really giving enough info to read. Null. (-1)
ToonyMan: Answered RQS questions, didn't ask any except in response. High content posts, usually one per 50 posts (page 4 short post, no page 5).
Throws out suspicion of 4mask working with NQT.
Town lean with neutral overtones. (+5)
Flabort: Devilishly handsome town power role. Sees mafia as a puzzle, tries to survive long enough to put it together.
Asks RQS questions only to people who didn't ask him questions first, but addresses everyone in one way or another.
Definitely town. (+999)
Persus13: Active RQS, uses a blanket question to address everyone.
Higher activity than some, with multiple posts per page towards later pages. Later posts have less content then earlier posts, but not PFP levels of quality loss.
Has as much of a problem with PPE "You may wish to review your post" as I do, so maybe he's filling out a spreadsheet too? Nah.
Doesn't feel IG is telling truth. Town lean (+5)
NotQuiteThere: Starts off with full RQS mode. Was asked about Priest before IG ever came under suspicion.
Presses 4mask to talk to everyone, brings up current lynch candidates when not entirely appropriate (not that I noticed until it was brought up).
Seems mostly concerned with getting everyone to weigh in on everything, rather than getting a lynch. Town lean (+5, but I feel it shouldn't be SO high)
Tiruin: Most initial posts are reasons why she hasn't posted yet.
Once active, answers outstanding RQS questions, but misses anything not directed directly at her.
Doesn't accept answers to questions on grounds of the answers are too short. However, this is arguing with IG, so...
Neutral (+2)
Toaster: Makes a few RQS questions. Starts day believing Day 1 will be mislynch. Throws out more RQS questions as necessary.
High content posts, but not easy to tell from posts whether or not he's actually high content due to being town or blending in. Even so, the first to pass a certain point on my scumometer.
Very informative about prior Supernatural games, focused on rooting out lazy play (but then says lazy isn't always scummy).
Once he gets arguing with IG, his posts devolve from scum hunting into short replies and anger (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368316#msg5368316).
I suspect he's scum, but don't have enough proof to pursue. Neutral read (+2).
Zombie Urist: Very absent. First few posts answer some RQS in brevity, mostly PFP.
Soccer fan, and work is launching a new product (where does ZU work? What new product?) but really needs to contribute more.
Null read (+1)
4maskwolf: Really doesn't like Day 1 due to lack of information and activity. This game has lots of both on Day 1, though.
Very active regardless, with lots of replies. Some (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364826#msg5364826) of his (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365115#msg5365115) posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365245#msg5365245) posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365565#msg5365565) have more (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367798#msg5367798) content than (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368267#msg5368267) others (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.200). Most are one line or two responses, though.
A fan of the word "lolz". Makes me think of Not So Beginner Mafia, where Pisskop was behaving similarly and flipped town.
Quite possibly reaction hunting by being abrasive. Town lean (+5).
Ottofar: Starts off answering questions, and asks Jiokuy a truckload.
Seems short on time to post, as next few are brief. Once he gets going he averages medium content. Not a whole lot of posts to go on.
Lurky, slight town lean (+3)
Jiokuy: Answers a hella lot of RQS questions, asks just a few of his own.
Low activity, excused by being at a funeral (is back as of 7th post). Asks for Extend.
I'd like Jiokuy's full read list. (And yeah, 200 posts in one day is a bit much).
Null/town (+4, but need more info).
Imperial Guardsman: Starts out scummy, very scummy. I have to soft claim to get him off my case, only for him to say that's not what he wanted from me.
Later reveals he needs me alive, because of being a third party with me as part of his win condition. I for one believe his role claim.
3rd Party, one-shot 50% revive with bad stuff on fail, wins if I survive, gets new wincon if I die. "Exile Mage". Yeah, I trust that as long as I'm alive and not cult converted, he'll be protown.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 15, 2014, 08:11:27 pm
4maskwolf: Imperial Guardsman, ToonyMan
flabort: Jim Groovester
Imperial Guardsman: Persus13
Jim Groovester: flabort
notquitethere: Jack A.T., Toaster, zombie urist
zombie urist: notquitethere
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
@4maskwolf that sucks, I hope your surgery goes well!
TheWetSheep, do you want to replace in for 4maskwolf?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 15, 2014, 08:33:23 pm
@4maskwolf:
[1] Posting a lot is okay, but it needs to be less emotional and less spam-y. If you're hovering over the thread pressing F5 waiting for a response from a person you know is online, you probably need to back off for a bit. Think of mafia as debate class.4maskwolf - [1]just as hyper as IG but has [2]nothing to show for it, [3]super defensive and reactive, [4]doesn't believe IG's claim either I think? [5]It depends on the weather.[1]Assuming you're talking about my post count, is there a problem with posting a lot?
[2]Other than my scumhunting, you mean?
[3]Would you rather I rolled over and gotten lynched?
[4a]I actually do believe his claim of third party
[4b]And it matters if I believe him why?
[5]Wut?
[2] I seem to remember Jack AT and Persus13 pressuring Imperial Guardsman better than you.
[3] No. I noticed you and NQT are being overly critical of people who vote you and I generally see that as a scum tell.
[4a] Ah, okay.
[4b] As of right now I find people who believe him to probably be less scummy, as I am of the opinion that IG is telling the truth and if I'm town and think so then other townspeople would probably think the same thing. Obviously not concrete, but hey.
[5] I was poking fun at your wishy-washy stance. I was unable to get a clear answer when I was trawling the thread.
Now, Toony: you are listing two people who have posted very little over someone who you actually have a complaint with on your scumminess meter. Why is that? Trying to make it seem that NQT isn't a big threat?I do not trust Zombie Urist or Ottofar, at all. I can't gauge somebody who hardly speak their mind. I'm happy with a few things NQT is doing so I'd like to give him a chance.
@Ottofar:
I'd rather post more in-depth reads on D2, when there's some concrete evidence around. But, I can post something concise when I get tomorrow, for everyone to see.What would happen if nobody felt like posting on Day 1? If everybody took your stance it'd be a quiet first day.
@Jiokuy:
Wolf, Tiruin (or her replacement), JiokuyWhat he said.
Deadline hits Monday now. You going to use your vote before then? Jiokuy especially has yet to press a single lynching case yet.
@Zombie Urist:
And here's my lynch vote for Day 1 unless something silly happens:
Zombie Urist for not engaging in the game and being unhelpful. Have anything to say? What are your thoughts on Jack AT and Toaster?
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2014, 08:56:13 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 15, 2014, 09:43:43 pm
Also, what the hell, I start playing and then everybody else stops.
Post by: Persus13 on June 15, 2014, 09:46:48 pm
PersusAh, thank you for fleshing out your case. From your reads list it appeared you took issue with his brevity, which I've seen in him before.
Apparently he's posting from work rather than his phone, he's just quite busy. I'm voting him because he hasn't articulated a case and frequently ignores my responses. Failing to communicate with the person you're voting is a pretty typical scum move. It's looking like we're going to have an extension and I'll be making sure I'm targeting the person I find scummiest by the end of the day.
Players Yet To Give ReadsMine will be at the end of this post.
Persus13
Imperial Guardsman:
I havent seen a supernatural with 2 thirds, and theres a 1/3 chance of Werewolves. The other two and the only other two I have seen are Vampires ( who can cult ) and CultistsUh what? What does third parties and chances of werewolves have to do with Cultists? Also, I already pointed out one Supernatural with two thirds, and Toaster pointed out more. Finally, the 1/3 chance of Werewolves isn't true, because the amount of scum factions Meph has made are unknown, and we only know about 3 of them. Also, probability doesn't work on the scumteam, because it has already been chosen and therefore there's either a 100% chance of werewolves or 0% chance of werewolves, we just don't know which.
Also, you never answered this:
Imperial GuardsmanWait, what? You've lost me and everyone else, please explain this post a little better.Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
4maskwolf:
One of the things that bugs me about the way I see a lot of you all think about the game is that there seems to be this belief that a townie shouldn't care about being seen as scum, because they have nothing to hide. There are certain times when this is true, but by performing any action (like perceived bandwagoning) that could be seen as scummy often leads to a mislynch of them, which they also don't want.It's more about that town players should focus on finding and lynching scum then anything else (aka winning). If you're prioritizing anything else (eg. defending yourself) then your not trying to win and aren't helping the people on your side win. However, defending yourself does help find scum, as it helps shows yourself to be town in the eyes of other players and has them move on to scum targets. It's just exclusively defending yourself and not trying to find scum is considered bad (ex. Imperial Guardsman).
Jim:
Define least impressive game.Instead, Unvote IG, Vote Jim. How come you focus on that one guy that's voting you?
I voted the guy with the least impressive game, in my opinion. The vote on me is incidental.
I don't know, and I'd rather overestimate someone then underestimate when it comes to that sort of thing, ever since the last Supernatural, where I believed a fake-claim and it caused me and other town players to lose the game.Sometimes. In Prince of the Mafia he's helped lynch/kill scum with some impressive reasoning. But I feel his claim isn't completely competent because I reread the thread, and noticed his past vote wasn't consistent with his claim.
Do you think he's capable of deliberately using WIFOM to his advantage? Or, at the very least, attempting to do so?
Jack A T
I apologize, my question was too short and didn't fully convey my thoughts on NQT, especially his attack on ZU.notquitethere: Your top scum pick is a guy who was voting you because he was just posting from his phone?Persus13: As much as I lean towards NQT being scum, I fail to see how voting reasons that include "Only his very last post shows any sort of sliver of proactive engagement" equal a case purely for zombie urist posting from his phone. This seems like a bit of a stretch. Please explain.
I thought NQT's attack on ZU was an attack on ZU's playstyle of short posts, made worse this game by the fact that ZU was either posting at work or on his phone. NQT's mention of viewing players as scum based on "commitment and engagement" made me more convinced that this was an attack because of how ZU played. In addition, he also attacked Tiruin for having chatty posts instead of her hunting scum, something I also thought was a playstyle attack. Attacking players based on playstyle is a major thing I tend to take issue with, and if I attack or question it, it either leads to people solidifying their cases, backing off, or turning out to be scum. I also felt that he was exaggerating ZU's lack of contribution and was suspicious of the people who had voiced suspicions of him (Toonyman, ZU, Toaster). Thanks to his response fleshing out his concerns and a realization of my own that ZU had contributed less than I had thought, my concerns about him attacking based on playstyle have diminished, however my concerns about him being most suspicious of players attacking him still remain.
Flabort:
Flabort: Devilishly handsomeFreudian slip?
Persus13: Has as much of a problem with PPE "You may wish to review your post" as I do, so maybe he's filling out a spreadsheet too? Nah.More of replying to people and after writing a post, finding bits of it are redundant or no longer relevant.
Reads (in no particular order)
Jack A T- argues well, pretty active, brings up good points, no problems so far. Seems town, but I haven't seen his scum game.
Jim- Couldn't post till Friday, but has posted a few long posts since then. Hunting a new player as usual, and brutally honest as always. Town?
Toonyman- Need to reread his posts, as it seems like no one has really been focusing on him. Brought up good points against 4maskwolf.
Flabort- Not sure about him either. Scum finder seems like it ignores meta and context. Last used it as scum. Have seen him play well as scum, to good effect. Should ask more questions. He attacked IG using a post from JAck A T, and I still find that pretty scummy.
notquitethere: I can see why people think he is scum, but I'm not really willing to lynch him over it.
Tiruin- Contributed very little, so null read.
Toaster- Playing well so far, could be scum or town at this point.
ZU- not contributed much, want him to post more before Day end. Slightly scummy.
4maskwolf- fairly passive, although has said he hates day 1. Hope to see more content out of TWs. Slightly scummy.
Ottofar-Hasn't done much except ask a few questions. Null read.
Jiokuy- Forgot he was playing. Needs to post more, and articulate cases. Scummy.
Imperial Guardsman- I still doubt his claim of third party, and I think he's scum. Has contributed nothing useful since claiming and is scum at worse and useless at best in this game. Would like a vig to target him, but since that's uncertain I'd rather he get lynched as soon as possible.
PPE:
flabort, you haven't answered my question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372630#msg5372630).It's the weekend mate, come back on Monday.
Also, what the hell, I start playing and then everybody else stops.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:54:54 pm
[1] Posting a lot is okay, but it needs to be less emotional and less spam-y. If you're hovering over the thread pressing F5 waiting for a response from a person you know is online, you probably need to back off for a bit. Think of mafia as debate class.[1] I don't actually sit there like that, I just check every 20 minutes or so, often longer if I'm doing something important. It's my summer, I don't have a job until two weeks from now, so I have the free time to do things.
[2] I seem to remember Jack AT and Persus13 pressuring Imperial Guardsman better than you.
[3] No. I noticed you and NQT are being overly critical of people who vote you and I generally see that as a scum tell.
[4a] Ah, okay.
[4b] As of right now I find people who believe him to probably be less scummy, as I am of the opinion that IG is telling the truth and if I'm town and think so then other townspeople would probably think the same thing. Obviously not concrete, but hey.
[5] I was poking fun at your wishy-washy stance. I was unable to get a clear answer when I was trawling the thread.
[2] They are also more experienced and are better able to pressure these people.
[3] Mmk. Makes good enough sense.
[4b] Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Though I do agree with you insofar as it goes: scum players will try to find holes in any roleclaim in order to get someone lynched, often above and beyond what a good townie would do.
[5] That's what I thought.
4maskwolf- fairly passive, although has said he hates day 1. Hope to see more content out of TWs. Slightly scummy.Bluh, too much content in one post :D.
That being said, I'm trying out a new strategy this game, then realizing I have to leave partway through.
I now turn this over to the highly competent TWS to continue the game in my stead.
Post by: Toaster on June 15, 2014, 10:06:27 pm
Flabort:
Imperial Guardsman: Starts out scummy, very scummy. I have to soft claim to get him off my case
So... why do the attacks of a "very scummy" person do so well to drive out a claim from you? If he's that scummy, his cases will go ignored.
NQT:
If everyone gives their reads on all the other players, it's easier to sniff out aggregate suspicions and spot incongruities in player's understandings of the game. It's pretty uncontroversially a Good Thing to have.
What value do you expect from aggregate suspicion?
Post by: Persus13 on June 15, 2014, 10:09:20 pm
Post by: flabort on June 15, 2014, 10:29:04 pm
flabort, you haven't answered my question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372630#msg5372630).
Does weighing in affect your read of either of the players involved? Does stating your opinion of either of them affect who you are going to vote?
It does not, and not directly.
The point of weighing in is to get involved in a new discussion, to stimulate discussion that has not been gone over multiple times.
By stimulating said discussion, it gets other people to change and/or state their opinions on it, and those opinions, and the discussion as a whole, does affect who I may vote.
Flabort:Flabort: Devilishly handsomeFreudian slip?Persus13: Has as much of a problem with PPE "You may wish to review your post" as I do, so maybe he's filling out a spreadsheet too? Nah.More of replying to people and after writing a post, finding bits of it are redundant or no longer relevant.
Flabort- Not sure about him either. Scum finder seems like it ignores meta and context. Last used it as scum. Have seen him play well as scum, to good effect. Should ask more questions. He attacked IG using a post from JAck A T, and I still find that pretty scummy..
You do not find undeath attractive? Nah, I didn't mean "devilishly" as in "DEVIL", I just meant as an adjective. (Also, undeath just refers to avatar, not to role either). :P
Yeah, at least you didn't get "warning, at least 24 people have posted". I had to completely rework that post.
You should ask me more questions, or I should ask more questions? I'm going to anyways, but just in case you meant otherways...
Jim What do you think of NQT, Persus, and 4mask? Who is likely to die to the scum tonight?
NQT What do you think of Persus, 4mask, and Jim? If there were more than one third party, which one is most likely for there to be?
Persus What do you think of 4mask, Jim, and NQT? If you were an informative role, would you claim in the morning?
4mask What do you think of Jim, NQT, and Persus? Could you post a list of reads?
Flabort:The way he saw it, he didn't "do so well", he didn't want me to claim. However, I was trying to prove that he was lying (he was), which I thought would prove he was scum (it didn't). And I see it less as he drove a claim from me, and more of I gained a rise from him.Imperial Guardsman: Starts out scummy, very scummy. I have to soft claim to get him off my case
So... why do the attacks of a "very scummy" person do so well to drive out a claim from you? If he's that scummy, his cases will go ignored.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 10:30:32 pm
4mask What do you think of Jim, NQT, and Persus? Could you post a list of reads?Please direct all questions to my extremely competent replacement, TheWetSheep. Thank you.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 15, 2014, 10:42:19 pm
Sure.
TheWetSheep has replaced in for 4maskwolf.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 15, 2014, 10:54:56 pm
More of your posts are dedicated to questioning players that voted you than questioning new players.
You also abstained from most of the IG debacle.
You have a low post count, and an even lower question count.
I may be wrong, but I have yet to find a post where you question someone who isn't voting you.
Normally I wouldn't want a lynch over only one tell.(abet it's a strong tell)
But this has not been a normal game.
Your posts all seem self-serving.
Do you have an explanation?
IG:
Lynching Guardian Angels doesn't help town win. For now I will chose to believe your pro-town claim.
But I sincerely recommend against using your Resurrection. We cannot implicitly trust that ability especially with the chance for bad stuff.
If you use that ability without telling us, I will consider you dangerous.
Post by: zombie urist on June 15, 2014, 11:18:12 pm
Persus13: Almost none of his posts have any useful comments. He has never built a serious case on any person he voted for. Voted IG in the beginning for Jack not asking him (IG) about thirds, but Jack himself already responded to that a few posts before. link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364631#msg5364631) Then votes Jiokuy asking to clarify something. This vote never really goes anywhere. link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367824#msg5367824). A bunch of his other posts are basically just asking for clarifications. 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368340#msg5368340) 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368795#msg5368795) 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368263#msg5368263)
Zombie Urist: What's your case on NQT?I'm sure this question has never been asked before.
NQT: Lots of IIOA, asking for lots of information without really doing anything with it. Called Tiruin out for lurking way too early because he was too excited. I don't really understand why he being excited would lead him to call out a lurker. Asked about an IG lynch and 4mask lynch even though they were at that time very unlikely to be lynched claiming that everyone needs to be responsible for a mislynch. He said he was asking early because
...if no one had done anything else at that time he would have died and I wanted people's opinions on this.Its super unlikely that there would have been no activity at all after that it makes no sense for him to be worried about him being lynched.
I also disagree with his reasoning that everyone needs the blame for a mislynch. The people voting for the target are obviously responsible, but often if you aren't voting for the person and you have a legitimate case on someone else sometimes it just happens that more people agree with the other case.
Flabort: Goes from "IG is super scummy -11!!!" to "IG is confirmed benign third" way too fast. His "proof" that IG is scum is a post from Jack about people who are high post count low content.
It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory.Spoiler: Proof (click to show/hide)
He also never explained why he believes that IG is now benign third. Lastly he said
I have to soft claim to get him off my case, only for him to say that's not what he wanted from me.I don't know why he feels like he needed IG to stop bothering him if he actually is town. He also hasn't ever really built a case. He admitted his case on Toaster was weak, promptly unvoted, then hasn't built a case. Still thinks everyone is town and seems afraid to accuse anyone as scum.
IG: Claimed third party, probably is third party, but I'm not sold on "benign". Also him voting Flabort as third party and then claiming he knows Flabort is town and needs him alive makes is too strange and needs to be considered.
Had dinner before finishing this post. PPE'd x10.
Post by: zombie urist on June 15, 2014, 11:31:51 pm
Jack did pretty well causing IG to break and claim third, but of course this doesn't mean he's in the clear. But I don't think he's scum.
Toony is probably town. He made a decent case on 4mask, but him calling out lurkers at near day end is kinda strange.
Toaster is towny. I don't notice anything particularly strange about his play.
Not enough info from Jim, Tiruin, Jiokuy and Ottofar. I'll have to look closer in the coming day.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 15, 2014, 11:32:56 pm
my extremely competent replacement, TheWetSheep.
the highly competent TWS:D
23 pages of D1 is a lot to catch up on. Some gut reads from what I've read so far:
Jiokuy - Town
Jim Groovester - less content and scumhunting results than what I'd expect
IG - Probably telling the truth about his role
ZU - Totally lynch-worthy if brevity wasn't his usual playstyle
Flabort - Assuming IG is truthful, Town
Persus - Lots of scumhunting and content, but the kind that can be done by scum or town
Ottofar - Has a suspicious post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5363187#msg5363187) early D1, see below, otherwise unknown
Ottofar:
This really looks like you're trying to get the new guy to slip up on at least one of these questions - you even said in the same post that scum would try to lynch him.Ottofar Who do you think scum will lynch tonight?Eh, if you mean scum nightkills, I'm guessing Jim would be pretty high on that list.
If you mean D1 Lynch, I could guess 4maskwolf or this new guy, Jiokuy.
...
Jiokuy, what is your favourite role power?
Which role power would you most like to have right now?
Which power would you never want scum to have (pick one)?
What is your alignment?
What is your favourite alignment?
What colour is my drapery?
What kind of scumteam do you think we're against?
What do you expect from the game?
Who do you think is scum?
Who is the most likely person to be town right now, from your point of view?
Who are you?
Who would you roleblock at night?
Who would you protect?
Should Millers claim in their 1st post?
Should any other roles claim right off the bat?
Is claiming a Miller a towntell, a scumtell or a null one?
ZU: Your Lurkertracker post preview isn't working perfectly. It says all your posts look like this one:
In the US its Hokey Pokey.You Do The Hokey-Cokey And You Turn Around
PPE: ZU's latest post is better.
Post by: zombie urist on June 15, 2014, 11:37:55 pm
Don't expect lurkertracker to be updated anytime soon.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 16, 2014, 12:35:39 am
Define least impressive game.
Passive, non-confrontational, fluffy and contentless, interested in survival over scumhunting. Active enough, but really not trying to make a splash or get too much attention.
That was my impression of flabort when I completed my read of the thread.
I don't know, and I'd rather overestimate someone then underestimate when it comes to that sort of thing, ever since the last Supernatural, where I believed a fake-claim and it caused me and other town players to lose the game.
This is the most important question and you dodge it. Is Imperial Guardsman willing to attempt to use WIFOM or not? It doesn't matter if he does it well or badly.
Basically I don't believe you when you say you think Imperial Guardsman is fakeclaiming. You cast your vote here:
Imperial, I don't really think your flavor seems plausible. First, Meph has never really referenced any previous games in his Supernatural flavor (or if he has, I must have missed it), and that flavor doesn't sound like his style to me. Secondly, your claimed revive power sounds a lot more like a Priest then your claimed role. Plus, on looking back at your vote on flabort, it does seem more like it was intended more as a lynch vote then anything else. If you were trying to get him to back off, I would have expected it to be more of an OMGUS and without the part where you trumpeted to the skies that you had found a third party. I think you were convinced you were going to be lynched, and so you fakeclaimed a third party role in order to prevent yourself from getting lynched.
Firstly I think it's asinine to not believe a claim in a Supernatural game because it's unprecedented. There's precedent for that being a bad move. Consider the case of Toaster the resurrected Lone Vampire who was lynched because people did not believe his truthful claim.
Secondly, at what point do you believe Imperial Guardsman made the decision to fakeclaim? Because Imperial Guardsman was making insinuations and hints to the wincon he would eventually claim well before he actually claimed it. He votes flabort here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365486#msg5365486), then flabort claims partially, then a mere twenty minutes after his vote on flabort Guardsman bemoans that flabort claimed here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365553#msg5365553) and continues to make these hints until a day later he explicitly makes his claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368052#msg5368052). So, where in the timeline of these events did Imperial Guardsman decide to fakeclaim to evade pressure?
Jim What do you think of NQT, Persus, and 4mask?
My reads haven't changed since I posted them.
Who is likely to die to the scum tonight?
It depends on who you choose to kill BWAR HAR HAR HAR HAR.
I don't know who is going to die and I don't feel comfortable publicly predicting it.
Why questions about those four people?
Jim:
More of your posts are dedicated to questioning players that voted you than questioning new players.
You also abstained from most of the IG debacle.
You have a low post count, and an even lower question count.
Holy shit, you're actually voting me because I was legitimately absent during the beginning portions of the game.
Should I repeat it a couple more times?
LEGITIMATELY
ABSENT
GONE
AWAY FROM KEYBOARD
NOT EVEN THERE
COULDNT GET ON THE INTERNET TO SAVE MY LIFE
What part of being LEGITIMATELY ABSENT makes me scummy?
I may be wrong, but I have yet to find a post where you question someone who isn't voting you.
You are wrong and you should feel ashamed for looking as lazily as you did, if you even looked at all.
Your posts all seem self-serving.
Please elaborate. I won't stand to be characterized in such a lazy way without significant evidence and reasoning.
Jim Groovester - less content and scumhunting results than what I'd expect
FOR FUCK'S SAKE PEOPLE
Post by: Jack A T on June 16, 2014, 03:23:23 am
Also, could you give me your reads please?NQT: Sure.
Reads
*Jim Groovester: Has just become capable of posting. Mostly just gives the impression of being Jim Groovester. Null read.
*ToonyMan: Reasonable votes so far. Currently focused on the quiet, lurky players, FoSing 2 and voting 1. Wary neutal read.
*flabort: Having watched flabort apply his spreadsheet before joining NSBM4, I have a pretty good idea of how he used it. His early play was largely consistent with him letting the spreadsheet control his play, rather than using it as a way to track his thoughts. See, for instance, the odd -11 on Guardsman, gained through loads of poor posts (a weakness of post-by-post tracking of flabort's sort). Even with that in mind, there were some oddities (the case on IG being an unrelated post of mine, for instance). The collapse of his case on Toaster seems to have been enough to get him to change his play. Reads now have details. Nothing seems immediately all that off. Flabort uses his spreadsheet whatever alignment he is. Null read.
*Persus13: Seemed to be willing to rethink his read on IG early on, when new evidence came. Has been generally pretty open in response to questions. Slight town lean.
*notquitethere: (revoting for clarity at a glance) Spent quite some time sitting back and trying to keep attention on whoever was getting attention, while giving as little as possible in the way of his thoughts. Defense, when confronted on this, has been a mix of generally competent, but weak, attempts to create doubt, coupled with desperate attempts to make facts seem to back his narrative (see, for instance, the astounding attempt (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370978#msg5370978) to spin the fact that he was defending himself into proof that he wasn't holding himself to a lower standard of openness than he said everyone should be held to). Moderate scum lean.
*Tiruin: Has been fighting real life for the past few weeks. Real life has been winning. Null read.
*Toaster: Has been scumhunting well, plus has been keeping people well informed about prior Supernaturals. Reads list was low on reads, though. Neutral read.
*zombie urist: Spent quite some time contributing little of value. Made a ridiculously lazy vote on NQT Did not respond to my request for a response to NQT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370768#msg5370768), though my request was a bit outdated by the time I posted. Low-moderate scum lean.
*4maskwolf/TheWetSheep: 4maskwolf was a jumpy, hyperactive mess. Of the player quirks to go with, ignoring nuance in votes is a pretty terrible one, especially when the nuance is necessary to consider when determining the intentions of attackers. Most of his issues seemed to be more issues of competence than issues of alignment, though. His successor, TheWetSheep, has come out with odd and unexplained preliminary reads (in particular, the Jiukoy one). However, he is still working on gathering reads. Neutral read.
*Ottofar: Lurky, an Ottofar tradition. Has promised reads soon. Let's see what he says. Null read.
*Jiokuy: So. We all spend a few days waiting for Jiokuy to post after this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370534#msg5370534). A bunch of questions are asked. Finally, we get this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379396#msg5379396): no answers to any of the questions, minimal information, and a bad case on Jim that's vague and isn't even based on facts (for instance, Jim has questioned people who aren't attacking him). Low scum lean.
*Imperial Guardsman: Twit. Third party claim seems generally believable, but I cannot rely on the part about flabort being town based solely on Guardsman.
Questiony/Answery Stuff
ToonyMan: You said a while back that you had a feeling that NQT and 4maskwolf were working together (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368928#msg5368928). Can you say why you thought and/or think this?
I'm happy with a few things NQT is doing so I'd like to give him a chance.What are these things?
flabort: I notice that you lean towards Toaster being scum, but the only negative value in your reads is on Jim. What caused the negative value for the latter? What makes you suspect Toaster, but not suspect the lower-value Jim? Is this the continuing issues with your scumometer?
(where does ZU work? What new product?)Let's let ZU have his privacy.
zombie urist: Alright. Until now, you were voting for NQT. You still suspect NQT. What do you think of his defenses against allegations against him so far?
Voted IG in the beginning for Jack not asking him (IG) about thirds, but Jack himself already responded to that a few posts before. link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364631#msg5364631)What makes this evidence against Persus13?
Jiokuy: Answer my questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370768#msg5370768), NQT's questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370978#msg5370978), Persus13's questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5371392#msg5371392), and Toaster's question. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372205#msg5372205)
Normally I wouldn't want a lynch over only one tell.(abet it's a strong tell)How is this game not normal? What about that abnormality makes you willing to lynch Jim on your one tell?
But this has not been a normal game.
If that were my intention, why would I go about consistently bringing up the need for reads and reflections from others?notquitethere: To explain why you were trying to focus as much attention as you could on those who were already under attack. To look like an active, helpful player.
Do you think I'd think no one would notice if I did none of that myself before the end of the day?I think you hoped nobody would notice your behaviour, including your lack of thoughts, but had some vague idea of how to explain your actions in case you were noticed. Standard on-the-fly mafia behaviour: no detailed plans, some room for error, you know. Playing like actual people play, not like the I'm Too Good A Scum Player To Do That argument assumes scum players play (I don't much like that argument, but I see it all too often). Your idea of a good explanation was likely an explanation that would fit with your known tendency towards heterodox play, a tendency you recently awkwardly shoehorned into (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370978#msg5370978) one of your arguments in defense against Toaster ("I almost always play in ways people disagree with: am I scum in every game?"). (You really wanted people to remember that, didn't you?)
Post by: Jiokuy on June 16, 2014, 03:42:36 am
I have reread the thread, and I revoke my criticisms regarding your involvement in the IG incident. My appologies there.
However, you have only cast one vote this game, and that vote was on (at the time) the only player voting you.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You've made 9 posts this game. Of them I would consider only 5 of them to be playing the game. This can be partially excused by your absence, but I would still expect more activity from a veteran player.
Based on the content of your posts (in particular your questions); I think if you're hunting at all, you're playing a very weak game.
I might not know your meta as well as other players, you might be a player whom doesn't believe strongly in day one. But, day one is all I have to go on, and your day one play is not reassuring.
So Jim, who do you think is scum.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 16, 2014, 03:55:52 am
Reads:
Jack A.T. :
Towny-ish. Currently not suspicious.
Jim Groovester:
Very Passive. Scummy as heck. Not as Scummy as I am used to, but It's a learning process.
ToonyMan:
Neutral. Not currently suspicious.
flabort:
Neutral. Suspicious, but I suspect day 2 will reveal more.
Persus13:
Moderate hunter, low suspicion.
notquitethere:
Active hunter, very defensive. Low Suspicion. Collecting information. Could make it really easy to manipulate us if scum. Going to trust for now.
Tiruin:
Lurker, Seeking replacement.
Lord Toaster:
Super veteran, not super active. productive player. Not suspicious.
zombie urist:
Lurker, seems ok. Null leaning scum.
TheWetSheep:
The New guy. Seems legit. Null.
Ottofar:
Actively Hunting, sometimes. Low Suspicion.
Jiokuy:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Imperial Guardsman:
Highly Suspicious, Long-Term Threat.
Post by: Tiruin on June 16, 2014, 04:02:58 am
Tiruin:I did say I bloody quit, didn't I? I'm "Luuuurking" moreso because my net is :I and I'm testing if I could actually post something longer than several paragraphs and pictures.
Lurker, Seeking replacement.
Also on the part of unvote--@Toaster: I unvoted primarily because upon re-reading IG's case, it makes more sense, and concrete sense at that [counter-basis: Why would he do all this if...{*looks at minute details*}]. It's incredibly...risky isn't the right word to describe it but something along those lines...to do such as scum.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 16, 2014, 04:37:52 am
This can be partially excused by your absence, but I would still expect more activity from a veteran player.
I'm trying to find the words to adequately express the contempt I feel right now.
Jiokuy.
Firstly, please answer my questions I directed at you in the previous post. In particular, since I can no longer assume you have the mental capacity to find them on your own, they are quoted here for your convenience:
What part of being LEGITIMATELY ABSENT makes me scummy?
Your posts all seem self-serving.
Please elaborate. I won't stand to be characterized in such a lazy way without significant evidence and reasoning.
Now, we examine the post you just made.
You've made 9 posts this game. Of them I would consider only 5 of them to be playing the game. This can be partially excused by your absence, but I would still expect more activity from a veteran player.
I shall repeat: I WAS FUCKING ABSENT YOU DIPSHITARD
How do you expect me, you, or anyone to meet the expectation for mafia activity if they are not physically able to post?
This isn't a rhetorical question, by the way. I want you to answer it, because I want you to spend the amount of time to think about and type out and post the answer to a question that should be obvious to anybody who isn't a complete moron.
This is honestly offensive. Since I've been back my activity has been fine and I shouldn't have to justify my activity for an absence I told everybody about in advance.
Based on the content of your posts (in particular your questions); I think if you're hunting at all, you're playing a very weak game.
This is vague bullshit.
What content of my posts? What questions? How is it weak? Answer these.
It isn't just vague bullshit, it's vague, scummy bullshit. You cannot get away with being this lazy.
You having a bad case doesn't offend me half as much as your laziness does. You have put literally no effort into your vote on me and I am offended that you think you can lynch me with it.
So Jim, who do you think is scum.
You if you expect to get away with pushing a case this shit.
Post by: Ottofar on June 16, 2014, 07:24:22 am
Unvote 4maskwolf
@Ottofar:I'd rather post more in-depth reads on D2, when there's some concrete evidence around. But, I can post something concise when I get tomorrow, for everyone to see.What would happen if nobody felt like posting on Day 1? If everybody took your stance it'd be a quiet first day.
Yeah, you're right.
Anyway, for the reads.
IG, first. Flailing around and being generally panicy. I'm trusting his third-partiness, and would love to see him vigged. I don't think he should be lynched though, not yet at least.
Flabort doesn't strike me as particularly scummy, but IG getting him to softclaim so easily is a bit suspicious. He had the thing with Toaster, which he withdrew. Coupling that with him not thinking anyone's scum strikes me as passive and cowardly, now that I look into it.
Flabort, why did you feel you had to get IG off yourself?
Jim, his first vote was reasonable, even though it was directed at the guy voting him. The second one is less so, and again an OMGUS. I can sympathize with being annoyed at everybody complaining about the absence, though. Still, a scum, I think, trying to scare his voters away.
ToonyMan, low postcount, pretty good content. Slight town lean.
Jack, nothing wrong there. Town.
Zombie Urist, wait, he's in the game? I'd vig him, if IG wasn't in the game.
Toaster, something feels odd with him, gonna take a look at him in the evening.
Also posting rest of the list in ~5 hours, sorry
Post by: Toaster on June 16, 2014, 08:39:52 am
Flabort:
Flabort:The way he saw it, he didn't "do so well", he didn't want me to claim. However, I was trying to prove that he was lying (he was), which I thought would prove he was scum (it didn't). And I see it less as he drove a claim from me, and more of I gained a rise from him.Imperial Guardsman: Starts out scummy, very scummy. I have to soft claim to get him off my case
So... why do the attacks of a "very scummy" person do so well to drive out a claim from you? If he's that scummy, his cases will go ignored.
Hrmph. I guess.
Jack A T:
Why do you think he's holding nothing back? I certainly agree he [IG] isn't town, and that it's likely he's third party, but I'm not at all convinced everything he's said is on the up and up.Toaster: Interesting. What parts of IGs statements do you least trust?
Primarily his change of wincon on death of Flabort. He said:
PPE:Undisclosed, but I assume its a Lyncher wincon, given the circumstances.Wrong there, I get a different wincon on his death.Oh? And what would this new wincon be?
It's plausible that he doesn't know, but Lyncher isn't believable. Plus, he's a bit too willing to use his 50% bad-things-happen revive.
The ties to Super6 are unusual, but not entirely implausible. Finally, I'm not giving Flabort a free townie pass based on his statements.
Going to put my (re)reads in another post to not get too wall-o-texty.
Post by: notquitethere on June 16, 2014, 10:16:11 am
Part 2
Players Who Have Given Reads
In Chronological Order
NQT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5369928#msg5369928)
Jim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5371011#msg5371011)
Toonyman (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372069#msg5372069)
Flabort (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5378463#msg5378463)
Persus (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379250#msg5379250)
Zombie Urist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379435#msg5379435)
Jack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379862#msg5379862)
Jiokuy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379902#msg5379902)
Incomplete Reads
King "Everyone else hovers around null" Toaster (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370215#msg5370215)
TheWetSheep (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379462#msg5379462)
Ottofar (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380177#msg5380177)
Players Yet To Give Reads
Tiruin, or her replacement
Imperial Guardsman
Spoiler: My Colour-Coded Visualisation of the Reads (click to show/hide)
Initial Follow Up
Jim, Do you really think so many people are null/neutral?
Toaster, Sheep, Ottofar, what do you think about the players you didn't mention?
(I'm at work atm, so pretty tight for time here and there's a lot to look at here, so will get back to more people as soon as poss. Also, there are some patterns in the reads that I want to explore ASAP.)
Meph, vote count please! Also, extend.
Answers
Toaster
What value do you expect from aggregate suspicion?In one of the BMs (the wizard-themed one), by collating people's suspicions I noticed there was one player the majority of people had suspected throughout the game, but not all at the same time so he's slipped through. Sure enough, I resolved an end-of-day tie against him and he was scum. It's not the only tool or by any stretch the most useful, but it's a potentially useful thing to check.
Flabort
NQT What do you think of Persus, 4mask, and Jim? If there were more than one third party, which one is most likely for there to be?OK sure. Persus is pursuing IG which could mean one of the following: Persus is scum and is after a safe target (possible but unlikely when mislynching town is preferable), Persus is town and genuinely disbelieves IG's claim (possible, but if so somewhat overestimates IG), Persus is a third party who's wincon is tied up with defeating IG (like, Persus is secretly a cultist survivor that's out to stop IG or what-have-you. Possible, but a bit of a leap). Right now, I think it's slightly more likely Persus isn't scum, but the reasons I have for this are less compelling the more I think about them. Especially as scum often tend to pick one case and then just doggedly stick with it...
Wolf I'm reading as slightly town now. He's a bit bristly but I don't read defensiveness as scummy. Usually town want to avoid being mislynched too. Sheep, his replacement, has come in with a fresh case which is promising. I want to see more of Sheep before passing a fuller judgement. If he's town, hopefully he'll still be with us tomorrow.
Jim's getting a lot of flak right now— I don't think Flabort was the best target for him to have picked and he's not made any other case the whole day. Now he's getting mad because he's lynch candidate and the cases against him aren't strongly made. I think there are both better and worse people to lynch today than Jim.
Meph creates the set-ups using a computer script (he gets a bunch of random draws and picks the one he likes best, tweaking it a bit), as such there could be any kind of third party here. We'll have a better idea on Day 2, I daresay.
ZU Glad to see you posting some substance!
NQT: [1] Lots of IIOA, [2]asking for lots of information without really doing anything with it. [3]Called Tiruin out for lurking way too early because he was too excited. I don't really understand why he being excited would lead him to call out a lurker.[4] Asked about an IG lynch and 4mask lynch even though they were at that time very unlikely to be lynched claiming that everyone needs to be responsible for a mislynch. He said he was asking early because1. You seem to be using IIOA incorrectly (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tarhalindur_Standard_Tells#Information_Instead_of_Analysis_.28IIoA.29): I've not speculated on the set-up at all. 2. As I've stated when asking for it, the information will be of most use in future days after flips. But as intended, I've got some initial analysis of everyone's reads in this post with more to follow. 3. I was just in an enthusiastic moment and hadn't really registered that it was still very early on in the game (as I'd posted more than most people at that stage, the game felt like it was quite developed at that time). 4. I've seen games dry up in activity towards the end of a day loads of times, and there was every indication at that time that one of them would be lynched and I wanted to know what people felt about it. As you'll see in a second, I'm about to do the same for the current lynch target. 5. But if you believe the person who is going to be lynched isn't scum and you don't try to prevent that lynch, then you're partly responsible for the mislynch. Scum like to keep their hands clean of mislynches, letting town do the dirty work and claiming innocence: it takes every player to make a mislynch happen....if no one had done anything else at that time he would have died and I wanted people's opinions on this.Its super unlikely that there would have been no activity at all after that it makes no sense for him to be worried about him being lynched.
[5]I also disagree with his reasoning that everyone needs the blame for a mislynch. The people voting for the target are obviously responsible, but often if you aren't voting for the person and you have a legitimate case on someone else sometimes it just happens that more people agree with the other case.
Jack
*notquitethere: (revoting for clarity at a glance) Spent quite some time sitting back and trying to keep attention on whoever was getting attention, while giving as little as possible in the way of his thoughts. Defense, when confronted on this, has been a mix of generally competent, but weak, attempts to create doubt, coupled with desperate attempts to make facts seem to back his narrative (see, for instance, the astounding attempt (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370978#msg5370978) to spin the fact that he was defending himself into proof that he wasn't holding himself to a lower standard of openness than he said everyone should be held to). Moderate scum lean.It seems we've reached an impasse here: I've tried to explain as clearly as I can where I was coming from, how I'd intended to give my reflections (and have now since done so) but wanted to make sure everyone else had given theirs. I did hold people to a higher standard of openness than myself at the time, because I knew I'd be posting lots of good content after I'd had the chance of a more thorough read through. I can see why you might not have liked this then, but given that I've delivered on everything I promised, I don't really see what you still have to complain about.
Do I only look like an active and helpful player? I'm more active than you and by asking others for reads I've ensured it's happened. Pretty helpful, wouldn't you say?If that were my intention, why would I go about consistently bringing up the need for reads and reflections from others?notquitethere: To explain why you were trying to focus as much attention as you could on those who were already under attack. To look like an active, helpful player.
Also, by pressing everyone and pursuing a number of cases throughout the day (rather than tunneling one person), I've drawn more flak on myself. How is my play consistent with trying to avoid attention?
I think you hoped nobody would notice your behaviour, including your lack of thoughts, but had some vague idea of how to explain your actions in case you were noticed. Standard on-the-fly mafia behaviour: no detailed plans, some room for error, you know. Playing like actual people play, not like the I'm Too Good A Scum Player To Do That argument assumes scum players play (I don't much like that argument, but I see it all too often).So you're accusing me of playing like... a player. Every single player in this game could concievably be scum, I fail to see how my actions as you've described them make it more likely that I am scum than any other player here. Invent a story to explain my behaviour through a scum lens isn't a case.
Your idea of a good explanation was likely an explanation that would fit with your known tendency towards heterodox play, a tendency you recently awkwardly shoehorned into (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370978#msg5370978) one of your arguments in defense against Toaster ("I almost always play in ways people disagree with: am I scum in every game?"). (You really wanted people to remember that, didn't you?)Or, you know, I do have a strong tendency for heterodox play and I'm used to drawing suspicion for bogus things in every game I play?
In sum, I'm seeing a lot of rationalising an existing prejudice. You've decided I'm scum and now you're squeezing everything to confirm that bias.
Post by: Toaster on June 16, 2014, 10:31:26 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 16, 2014, 10:38:12 am
NQT: I note that your vote lines up with the aggregate suspicion leader (I'm ignoring IG here.) Is this coincidental?Given that I voted ZU before almost everyone put in their reads, I'd damn well say that was coincidental. Unless you're accusing me of being psychic as well as scum?
Post by: Ottofar on June 16, 2014, 10:42:38 am
extend
Post by: Mephansteras on June 16, 2014, 11:27:48 am
TheWetSheep: Imperial Guardsman
flabort: Ottofar
Imperial Guardsman: Persus13
Jim Groovester: flabort, Jiokuy
Jiokuy: Jim Groovester
notquitethere: Jack A.T., Toaster
Ottofar: TheWetSheep
Persus13: zombie urist
zombie urist: notquitethere, ToonyMan
Day has been extended to ~4pm Pacific Tuesday. There will be no more Extensions this day.
Post by: zombie urist on June 16, 2014, 11:39:20 am
...You need to put a lot more effort into your reads.
zombie urist: Alright. Until now, you were voting for NQT. You still suspect NQT. What do you think of his defenses against allegations against him so far?NQT stuff below. It makes Persus scummy because it means he copied someone else's case without adding anything new and is being lazy not contributing.Voted IG in the beginning for Jack not asking him (IG) about thirds, but Jack himself already responded to that a few posts before. link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364631#msg5364631)What makes this evidence against Persus13?
1. You seem to be using IIOA incorrectly (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tarhalindur_Standard_Tells#Information_Instead_of_Analysis_.28IIoA.29): I've not speculated on the set-up at all. 2. As I've stated when asking for it, the information will be of most use in future days after flips. But as intended, I've got some initial analysis of everyone's reads in this post with more to follow. 3. I was just in an enthusiastic moment and hadn't really registered that it was still very early on in the game (as I'd posted more than most people at that stage, the game felt like it was quite developed at that time). 4. I've seen games dry up in activity towards the end of a day loads of times, and there was every indication at that time that one of them would be lynched and I wanted to know what people felt about it. As you'll see in a second, I'm about to do the same for the current lynch target. 5. But if you believe the person who is going to be lynched isn't scum and you don't try to prevent that lynch, then you're partly responsible for the mislynch. Scum like to keep their hands clean of mislynches, letting town do the dirty work and claiming innocence: it takes every player to make a mislynch happen.1. I guess technically that's not correct, but you've been gathering information and not drawing any conclusions from it. In fact now that you've gathered reads your initial follow up is still to ask people to complete the reads.
2. Maybe. I don't really see any initial analysis. Asking people for more information doesn't really count as analysis.
3. I guess.
4. Still don't believe you. I haven't really seen a game dry up on day 1 especially only after 2 real life days. I guess RangerCado's 1 night thing is an exception but that was also an unusual setup. And TBH if activity dries up I don't think asking everyone for reads will make them post more anyways.
5. Defending people isn't really productive and IMO its much easier to find scum by looking at bad cases. Meh.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 16, 2014, 11:50:57 am
TheWetSheep has replaced in for 4maskwolf.So 4maskwolf really was a wolf in sheep's clothing...
@Jack AT:
ToonyMan: You said a while back that you had a feeling that NQT and 4maskwolf were working together (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368928#msg5368928). Can you say why you thought and/or think this?Yeah, I found this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368545#msg5368545) suspicious. He first uses NQT's words in a positive manner, and then says he'll be keeping his eye on him. It felt staged to me.
A few things:I'm happy with a few things NQT is doing so I'd like to give him a chance.What are these things?
[1] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368494#msg5368494) We are of the same opinion about IG, even down to referring to Witches' Coven 3.
[2] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5369928#msg5369928) We are both voting ZU for similar reasons.
[3] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380399#msg5380399) Tables are pretty.
So while I found his defensive nature suspicious, because of his viewpoints on players it's hard for me to criticize that.
@Jim Groovebot:
You're being way more childish than normal! Where's our ultra competent Sigma?
@Zombie Urist:
You might have missed it, but I voted you:
Zombie Urist for not engaging in the game and being unhelpful. Have anything to say? What are your thoughts on Jack AT and Toaster?
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 16, 2014, 12:10:10 pm
Why is Jiokuy town and why are you assuming IG is truthful?He's new, so his non-scummy posts and attempts at finding scum look more genuine. Although his new reads list is pretty bad.
On IG, that would be a pretty far-fetched and detailed fake-claim to make.
Jim:
Why are you biting my head off when I've said that I haven't read the whole thread? I noticed that you hadn't done much, I didn't know that you've been having trouble posting the whole game.Jim Groovester - less content and scumhunting results than what I'd expect
FOR FUCK'S SAKE PEOPLE
Jiokuy:
Jim Groovester:What does the italicized mean?
Very Passive. Scummy as heck. Not as Scummy as I am used to, but It's a learning process.
Quote
flabort:Why?
Neutral. Suspicious, but I suspect day 2 will reveal more.
Quote
zombie urist:That's a bit of a contradiction.
Lurker, seems ok. Null leaning scum.
Quote
TheWetSheep:I've made one post. Why am I 'legit'?
The New guy. Seems legit. Null.
Quote
Imperial Guardsman:What? Why aren't you voting him? Do you not believe his claim?
Highly Suspicious, Long-Term Threat.
NQT: You're not actually adding content, just compiling other peoples'. ZU has started posting; is he still lynchworthy?
Toaster, Sheep, Ottofar, what do you think about the players you didn't mention?Null. That's why I didn't mention them.
Ottofar: Respond to this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379462#msg5379462), please.
You say in your reads list that flabort is not very scummy, that you believe IG is truthful(meaning flabort's town), and that Jim is probably scum, but you vote flabort. Why?
Post by: Persus13 on June 16, 2014, 12:16:01 pm
You should ask me more questions, or I should ask more questions? I'm going to anyways, but just in case you meant otherways...I meant you should ask more questions about stuff you found odd and other stuff like that, instead of just adding it to your spreadsheet.
Persus What do you think of 4mask, Jim, and NQT? If you were an informative role, would you claim in the morning?
You can find my reads on 4mask, Jim and NQT in my last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379250#msg5379250), and I don't have anything to add except 4maskwolf is gone, and Sheep's play so far is looking good.
I wouldn't claim an info role unless I had important information, like I found out if someone was scum.
Jiokuy
Jim:I find your attack on Jim hypocritical.
You have a low post count, and an even lower question count.
I may be wrong, but I have yet to find a post where you question someone who isn't voting you.
While Jim has only 5 posts of game play, they are all pretty long with a lot of content. You on the other hand have only 9 posts, all of which are comparatively short and you have been around for the whole game, while Jim was only around Friday as well as the weekend when the amount of activity dropped significantly.
Also, Jim has been questioning me pretty thoroughly and I have yet to vote him.
ZU:
Is that sarcasm?Zombie Urist: What's your case on NQT?I'm sure this question has never been asked before.
Jim:
I honestly do not know, and I prefer not to underestimate people. Going with the people are dumb explanation may be tempting, but from what I've seen it's very easy to fakeclaim, especially when people already believe you are a third-party.I don't know, and I'd rather overestimate someone then underestimate when it comes to that sort of thing, ever since the last Supernatural, where I believed a fake-claim and it caused me and other town players to lose the game.
This is the most important question and you dodge it. Is Imperial Guardsman willing to attempt to use WIFOM or not? It doesn't matter if he does it well or badly.
Firstly I think it's asinine to not believe a claim in a Supernatural game because it's unprecedented. There's precedent for that being a bad move. Consider the case of Toaster the resurrected Lone Vampire who was lynched because people did not believe his truthful claim.It's more of the fact that his flavor, powers, and name don't match up in my mind, as well as the fact that Meph hasn't really referenced previous games before.
Secondly, at what point do you believe Imperial Guardsman made the decision to fakeclaim? Because Imperial Guardsman was making insinuations and hints to the wincon he would eventually claim well before he actually claimed it. He votes flabort here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365486#msg5365486), then flabort claims partially, then a mere twenty minutes after his vote on flabort Guardsman bemoans that flabort claimed here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365553#msg5365553) and continues to make these hints until a day later he explicitly makes his claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368052#msg5368052). So, where in the timeline of these events did Imperial Guardsman decide to fakeclaim to evade pressure?That is a good point, I missed the "you doomed us both" part of that quote. I need to reread that section again.
notquitethere:
I like your table of reads. Looks like most people think Jack A T is town, ZU is scummy, and Tiruin is null or slight scum.
ZU:
Why does a vote and a question at the start of D1 need a case attached. I don't understand your case on me.zombie urist: Alright. Until now, you were voting for NQT. You still suspect NQT. What do you think of his defenses against allegations against him so far?It makes Persus scummy because it means he copied someone else's case without adding anything new and is being lazy not contributing.Voted IG in the beginning for Jack not asking him (IG) about thirds, but Jack himself already responded to that a few posts before. link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364631#msg5364631)What makes this evidence against Persus13?
Post by: Ottofar on June 16, 2014, 01:02:40 pm
IG, first. Flailing around and being generally panicy. I'm trusting his third-partiness, and would love to see him vigged. I don't think he should be lynched though, not yet at least. 3rd Party.
Flabort doesn't strike me as particularly scummy, but IG getting him to softclaim so easily is a bit suspicious. He had the thing with Toaster, which he withdrew. Coupling that with him not thinking anyone's scum strikes me as passive and cowardly, now that I look into it. Scum.
Flabort, why did you feel you had to get IG off yourself?
Jim, his first vote was reasonable, even though it was directed at the guy voting him. The second one is less so, and again an OMGUS. I can sympathize with being annoyed at everybody complaining about the absence, though. Still, a scum, I think, trying to scare his voters away.
ToonyMan, low postcount, pretty good content. Slight town lean.
Jack, nothing wrong there. Town.
Zombie Urist, wait, he's in the game? I'd vig him, if IG wasn't in the game.
Toaster, something feels odd with him, but I can't place my finger on it. Scum lean, but only by gut.
Persus13, doesn't really stand out to me. Null to slight town.
notquitethere, Well. Don't know exactly. Occasional posts that are very scummy. Somewhat defensive overall. Pushing for activity, which might be a scumtell. Scum, or a third party, or a town power role.
Tiruin. Not been here much, up for replacement. Good content when she posts. Town.
The4maskSheep, 4maskwolf was somewhat panicy, and not always too well argued, but active. Wetsheep's twisting my words and overinterpreting me. Otherwise looks active, and pretty good. Townish.
TWS
Ottofar:This really looks like you're trying to get the new guy to slip up on at least one of these questions - you even said in the same post that scum would try to lynch him.Spoiler: Snip (click to show/hide)
He's the only one in the game I don't know, so I thought I'd ask him several questions to find out what he's like as a player.
Also, do not twist my words. I said he might be a likely D1 lynch, and that's because newbies often are.
Also also, on Flabort, I didn't delete a word from that post, or reread it before posting. The things I mentioned then somehow clicked, and made me have a change of heart.
And no, I do not trust IG's claim on his towniness, but the part where he wants him alive. It seems rather unlikely to me that IG would go "hey, Flabbbers here's scum, but pls don't lynch him, I wnana win", don't you think?
PPE:
JiokuyJim:I find your attack on Jim hypocritical.
You have a low post count, and an even lower question count.
I may be wrong, but I have yet to find a post where you question someone who isn't voting you.
While Jim has only 5 posts of game play, they are all pretty long with a lot of content. You on the other hand have only 9 posts, all of which are comparatively short and you have been around for the whole game, while Jim was only around Friday as well as the weekend when the amount of activity dropped significantly.
Also, Jim has been questioning me pretty thoroughly and I have yet to vote him.
This, well. Jim & Persus. Chainsawing's a heavy tell, when it's this blatant.
Post by: flabort on June 16, 2014, 02:05:34 pm
Ouch. Harsh. Fair, though, at least the non-confrontational, active, survivalist, and not wanting to get too much attention parts.Define least impressive game.
Passive, non-confrontational, fluffy and contentless, interested in survival over scumhunting. Active enough, but really not trying to make a splash or get too much attention.
That was my impression of flabort when I completed my read of the thread.
As for splash, and passive, does not claiming first mean anything?
Quote
Why questions about you (Jim): Because you may be scum, I want more thorough opinions.Jim What do you think of NQT, Persus, and 4mask?
My reads haven't changed since I posted them.Who is likely to die to the scum tonight?
It depends on who you choose to kill BWAR HAR HAR HAR HAR.
I don't know who is going to die and I don't feel comfortable publicly predicting it.
Why questions about those four people?
Why questions about NQT: Because NQT seems to be controversial right now, and I want more thorough opinions.
Why questions about Persus: Because I needed someone who wasn't under suspicion to balance it out. Although I might have been wrong, I want more thorough opinions, and I can't recall many bad opinions of Persus at the moment.
Why questions about 4mask: Because I wanted his opinions, but it would unbalance the questions if I didn't ask anyone else about him.
*flabort: Having watched flabort apply his spreadsheet before joining NSBM4,Oh, that's right, I shared my sheet with you since you were GMing that game. So of course you have more insight into it. Heh, I've still got those notes on that Mario Bros themed game if you'd ever want to run it.
Quote
flabort: I notice that you lean towards Toaster being scum, but the only negative value in your reads is on Jim. What caused the negative value for the latter? What makes you suspect Toaster, but not suspect the lower-value Jim? Is this the continuing issues with your scumometer?On privacy: Fine, but I was hoping to get a better idea of ZU as a person to get a better idea of how he/she is going to play. But I'll let it drop.(where does ZU work? What new product?)Let's let ZU have his privacy.
On reads: I'm still letting my scumometer tint my views, but not control them anymore. It is now more of a lens on my opinions then a mirror, at least I'm working towards that. Technically, Jim is not my only negative value, but if IG is to be believed, then his scumometer value is worthless and pointless.
I need to update the scumometer, of course, but Jim earned a negative value by being rude in short posts; his more recent posts have not been logged yet, and will probably lift his value a little.
I suspect toaster mostly due to gut instinct, plus a couple of evil sounding sentences. I do suspect Jim, he's being even more abrasive now than the earlier posts; and I didn't have much to go on before due to previous absence (to the point that I didn't even know he was in the game in my first, unhelpful, read).
Basically what you noted on my reads is continuing issue, yes. I still need to refine my method and application of it.
Flabort, why did you feel you had to get IG off yourself?Because he was lying, and he was wrong. I wanted to prove him a liar, set the truth straight, and lay groundwork for solving the puzzle, and the best way to do that was to reveal a truth; the best way to do that was to claim.
Furthermore, he was being angry and... I guess the best word is "snobby" or "inappropriately overconfident". I didn't like that behavior, so I did something to change it.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Speaking of "snobby" and "rude".
Spoiler: Want to explain these, Jim? (click to show/hide)
Toaster: What do you think of our lurking players? Who would you say is still lurking, who has started lurking, what does that say about them?
Tiruin/Tiruin's unnamed replacement Same question.
TheWetSheep Also same question.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 16, 2014, 02:45:44 pm
Flabort, why did you feel you had to get IG off yourself?Offofar, why did you feel you had to vote Flabort? Hes done nothing suspicious and I CONFIRMED HIM AS TOWN MULTIPLE TIMES AND HE CLAIMS INVESTIGATIVE.
Post by: Toaster on June 16, 2014, 02:49:00 pm
Flabort, why did you feel you had to get IG off yourself?Offofar, why did you feel you had to vote Flabort? Hes done nothing suspicious and I CONFIRMED HIM AS TOWN MULTIPLE TIMES AND HE CLAIMS INVESTIGATIVE.
Do I really have to explain what confirmed means again? (Hint: He's not confirmed at all)
Post by: Toaster on June 16, 2014, 03:00:23 pm
Here, 24 hours after game start (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365048#msg5365048), he's already talking about the vote leader (barely) getting lynched. He said later on that...
I was a bit confused over how much longer the day was going to be, but that's not really an excuse.
Yet before he first said it...
Do you think you're going to be engaged enough with the game to be able to give your reads on Friday?
...he mentioned the game end time. Hmm.
Digging deeper on the second time he asked that type of question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367241#msg5367241), I notice all his questions are requests for the target to refine their case and/or read. While that is all well and good, he's doing so in lieu of offering his own opinions. This following post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367870#msg5367870) is more of the same. While he does offer "reads" of people, they're actually all noncommittal.
Does commit and read in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5369928#msg5369928).
Chasing people about their reads (and lack thereof) is a perfectly fine tactic, but not if you don't provide your own. I'm seeing now that NQT has been postponing his reads up for one "big reveal" at the end. I'm still digesting on this whether it's truly being done on a scummy level, but he's at best borderline.
To boil it down to one sentence, my vote came because I didn't trust your intentions.
Also, NQT, I'm not going to enumerate people I have weak/no read on; I'm going to be hitting the high points. If you want to know what I think about a particular player, ask me.
Persus:
notquitethere:
I like your table of reads. Looks like most people think Jack A T is town, ZU is scummy, and Tiruin is null or slight scum.
What conclusions do you draw from this?
Read on Persus: I'm not particularly impressed with his level of content, but I haven't actually seen him do anything outright negative. No negative lean, but keeping an eye out for him.
Toony is being really uncharacteristically quiet. Besides his vote on 4mask and ZU (the latter not strong), pretty much all the content he posted was in his read post, which was minimum-effort and noncommittal. Just look at these:
Spoiler: Toony's read post (click to show/hide)
About the only real stands he makes here are NQT and 4mask. Toony, why are you coasting through D1?
Ottofar: I found one thing odd about him. During the IG Incident, he unvotes 4mask to vote IG (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368153#msg5368153). He then drops this and never goes back to it. Ottofar, what happened to your 4mask case?
Zombie Urist has been busy with futbol and product launches. I was about to rip into him until this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379435#msg5379435) where he finally articulates cases on people. Still, awfully late to start taking a stand.
He does, however, get a black mark for his case on Persus:
Persus13: Almost none of his posts have any useful comments. He has never built a serious case on any person he voted for.
Until this post, this same statement was true for ZU.
Unvote NQT. I don't like what I've seen so far out of you, but at least you are coming forth with cases. Late, yes, but better than people like ZU are doing. Do know that I still do not trust your intentions, and you're still leaning a bit scummy.
ToonyMan, however, isn't really committing even when he pretends to do so.
As it turns out I dislike posting like this. I'd rather talk to people than about them. If someone's name isn't here, my read hasn't changed since last time I posted an opinion of them.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 16, 2014, 03:21:47 pm
Jim, Do you really think so many people are null/neutral?
Yes, really. If people play their regular game, which I've noted that several people are doing, then that tells me nothing and hence I have a null read on them.
Also, having a neutral read, as I clarified to 4maskwolf, means scumminess and towniness in equal parts and is more informative than a null read.
TheWetSheep has replaced in for 4maskwolf.So 4maskwolf really was a wolf in sheep's clothing...
Badumtiss
@Jim Groovebot:
You're being way more childish than normal! Where's our ultra competent Sigma?
More childish than normal? Then what's the average level of childishness that people expect out of me?
Also, this isn't Sigma, this is M. Bison, and I feel like recently (i.e. the past couple of years) I have not played well in games of mafia.
Jim, his first vote was reasonable, even though it was directed at the guy voting him. The second one is less so, and again an OMGUS. I can sympathize with being annoyed at everybody complaining about the absence, though. Still, a scum, I think, trying to scare his voters away.
Do you disagree with my opinion on Jiokuy?
I want more thorough opinions.
Have you no opinions of your own about those four players? What are you going to do with these opinions once you have them?
Also, why are you voting me?
As for splash, and passive, does not claiming first mean anything?
Not really what I had in mind. There are positive ways and negative ways of attracting attention. I was more thinking of the positive ways, i.e., being aggressive, questioning people, and all that other good town stuff.
Claiming in reaction to an aggressive but nonsensical attack is not a positive way of attracting attention to yourself.
Speaking of "snobby" and "rude".Spoiler: Want to explain these, Jim? (click to show/hide)
I have never claimed to be polite in a mafia game. Being rude and abrasive in a mafia games is not a scumtell.
Flabort, why did you feel you had to get IG off yourself?Offofar, why did you feel you had to vote Flabort? Hes done nothing suspicious and I CONFIRMED HIM AS TOWN MULTIPLE TIMES AND HE CLAIMS INVESTIGATIVE.
You assume that people believe you or that they care about your opinion.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 16, 2014, 05:35:16 pm
Also, yay surgery is over. I don't regret replacing out, though, because I'm groggy from pain meds.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled game of mafia. Consider this my "bah" post.
Post by: Tiruin on June 16, 2014, 07:05:22 pm
Now Jack, I resent your comment about my competency. I was trying a new strategy, and if you don't like it you should say so rather than insult me.You could do with being less blunt then.
Also, yay surgery is over. I don't regret replacing out, though, because I'm groggy from pain meds.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled game of mafia. Consider this my "bah" post.
Also heal well! :)
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 16, 2014, 07:21:56 pm
blubladies and gentlemen
dariush 2.0
Post by: Tiruin on June 16, 2014, 07:27:23 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 16, 2014, 07:31:11 pm
You could do well with watching your language and analogies, IG. Jim isn't Dariush, nor does he exemplify anything Dariush is. Dariush as himself ain't bad either--just frivolent with his...attitude.They both hate me for absolutely no reason and are very adamant about it.
Post by: Toaster on June 16, 2014, 09:02:39 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 17, 2014, 12:35:52 am
I've played with Dariush a lot longer than you, and this isn't Dariush-style.^
Also, it isn't hate :V
And even if it was: It's your attitude. NOT YOU.
Please understand that distinction.
@Toaster: Answered your query on the unvote thing back there.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 17, 2014, 02:06:52 am
The Scribe's Tally Sheet
flabort: Ottofar
Jim Groovester: flabort, Jiokuy
Jiokuy: Jim Groovester, Persus13
notquitethere: Jack A.T.
Ottofar: TheWetSheep, Imperial Guardsman
Persus13: zombie urist
zombie urist: notquitethere, ToonyMan
ToonyMan: Toaster
There's a four way tie and the day ends today.
blubladies and gentlemen
dariush 2.0
How can I be Dariush when I haven't called anybody a shitlord or told them to die in a fire?
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 05:11:56 am
1. You don't press a case until after the first deadline (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5371703#msg5371703).
2. You've only pressed one case in the entire game. Not including RVS, every other player (even Tiruin!) has pressed at least two cases.
3. When you do finally vote someone, you call them 'not as scummy as you're used to', as if you're anticipating them flipping town after all.
4. On your reads, you only think two players are scummy (not including IG, who you believe is a malicious third-party). Town tend to actually suspect other players, scum have to manufacture these suspicions.
5. Your reads are facile at best: you give a read on just Sheep rather than the whole Wolf-Sheep slot, for instance.
In your favour, your initial case on Jim raised valid objections, but it wasn't spoken from a position of personal strength. Jim's play has been passive and reactionary and he refuses to commit when giving reads... but he's still been doing a better job than you.
ZU, I've still got my eye on you. Let's see what happens when Jiokuy flips.
Sheep
NQT: You're not actually adding content, just compiling other peoples'. ZU has started posting; is he still lynchworthy?I've only got so many hours in the day: I've been sharing my findings as they've come, but I've continued reviewing the evidence and I've since found a stronger case.
I see, so they're exactly as town as they are scummy to you then...? Initially I thought not being able to express reads might be a scum tell but I went and double checked my grid of reads for The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, and Deathsword, the town patsy, was the worst at forming reads by a long stretch. Are you a patsy?Toaster, Sheep, Ottofar, what do you think about the players you didn't mention?Null. That's why I didn't mention them.
Persus
I like your table of reads. Looks like most people think Jack A T is town, ZU is scummy, and Tiruin is null or slight scum.That's the general consensus, though if everyone thinks something it may be a bit suspect as some of the players are necessarily lying about what they think.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 17, 2014, 08:02:19 am
There's a four way tie and the day ends today.Wrong.Unvote, Jiokuy, king of lurkers
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 09:16:57 am
And why is Flabort neutral AND suspicious but Toonyman just neutral and not suspicious. Surely if Flabort is suspicious there's a reason why and it means they're not neutral?
Imperial Guardsman, just because almost everyone accepts that you're probably an insane third-party player, doesn't mean you get a free pass on not submitting reads. It's possibe someone will kill you in the night, it would be good to see your thoughts on the other players before then.
[size=14]Meph[/size], ifwill Tiruin's slot be modkilled at some point or will the slot remain empty until filled?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 17, 2014, 09:26:44 am
flabort: Ottofar
Jim Groovester: flabort, Jiokuy
Jiokuy: Imperial Guardsman, Jim Groovester, notquitethere, Persus13
notquitethere: Jack A.T.
Ottofar: TheWetSheep
Persus13: zombie urist
ToonyMan: Toaster
zombie urist: ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Today
Tiruin's slot will remain open for a bit longer, but if it goes unfilled too long, then, yes, I'd need to remove it.
Post by: Ottofar on June 17, 2014, 10:50:37 am
pfp
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 17, 2014, 12:49:48 pm
The4maskSheep, 4maskwolf was somewhat panicy, and not always too well argued, but active. Wetsheep's twisting my words and overinterpreting me. Otherwise looks active, and pretty good. Townish.The only things you go into specifics in on this slot are bad things, but you say I'm townish? "Active" means nothing about alignment, and "pretty good" is incredibly vague.
Quote
Also, do not twist my words. I said he might be a likely D1 lynch, and that's because newbies often are.Why do you immediately assume I'm twisting your words instead of just misinterpreting, yet not call me suspicious for it? Looks like you're trying to make me look bad without actually suspecting me. I'm not actually misinterpreting just your words, either, it's the question and your interpretation of it, which is kindof vague:
Quote
Ottofar Who do you think scum will lynch tonight?
Eh, if you mean scum nightkills, I'm guessing Jim would be pretty high on that list.
If you mean D1 Lynch, I could guess 4maskwolf or this new guy, Jiokuy.
Flabort:
TheWetSheep Also same question.Nobody, really, except Tiruin(because replacement). It means she doesn't have the ability to post, because I trust her to be as active as possible. It says nothing about her alignment. Why are you asking three people what is essentially an RVS question?
NQT:
I replaced in two days ago. I sarcastically apologize for not having good reads on twelve players so far. If you don't think having bad reads is a scumtell anymore, why are you voting Jiokuy, who has newness as an excuse for poor reads, over it?I see, so they're exactly as town as they are scummy to you then...? Initially I thought not being able to express reads might be a scum tell but I went and double checked my grid of reads for The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, and Deathsword, the town patsy, was the worst at forming reads by a long stretch. Are you a patsy?Toaster, Sheep, Ottofar, what do you think about the players you didn't mention?Null. That's why I didn't mention them.
Quote
I see, so they're exactly as town as they are scummy to you then...?It means that I've seen nothing to shift me either way.
How have ZU's recent posts changed your opinion on him?
Post by: Ottofar on June 17, 2014, 01:01:10 pm
Toaster , I just kinda forgot about it. It was for pressure, in any case.
Post by: flabort on June 17, 2014, 01:05:56 pm
Flabort:Because I'm trying to glean more information without pursuing the same things everyone else is.TheWetSheep Also same question.Nobody, really, except Tiruin(because replacement). It means she doesn't have the ability to post, because I trust her to be as active as possible. It says nothing about her alignment. Why are you asking three people what is essentially an RVS question?
And I'll keep asking random questions to people until a new case surfaces.
Jiokuy Did you expect the day would be ending this way, with only a few hours to lynch and you the leading candidate?
Jim Unvote Did you think that by the end of the day the leading case would actually be "you OMGUS'd twice and were genuinely absent"? Were you actually afraid you might get lynched? Do you feel that maybe there is still reason for me to keep my vote on you, or am I justified in unvoting?
Toaster If it were you with 4 votes on you right now, for similar reasons of not pursuing any genuine cases, how would you be defending yourself?
Ottofar Are you OK with Jiokuy being killed? You did predict that he might get lynched, after all, what is your opinion on it?
NQT You believe that whoever gets lynched, it's everyone's responsibility. How equally is the responsibility spread? Are YOU ok with a Jiokuy lynch? If he flips town, will you consider it your fault? If he flips scum, will you take credit?
Post by: zombie urist on June 17, 2014, 01:09:38 pm
Flabort still needs to explain why he said IG is confirmed benign 3rd.
NQT needs more thorough analysis on the reads.
Ohh looking at Toasters post I noticed another smallNQT contradiction He said to Toaster he was unsure of end time which is why he asked but said to me if nothing else happened that day IG would be lynched.
Post by: zombie urist on June 17, 2014, 01:10:24 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on June 17, 2014, 01:11:15 pm
Toony is being really uncharacteristically quiet. Besides his vote on 4mask and ZU (the latter not strong), pretty much all the content he posted was in his read post, which was minimum-effort and noncommittal. Just look at these:I'm not. I gave my honest feelings.About the only real stands he makes here are NQT and 4mask. Toony, why are you coasting through D1?Spoiler: Toony's read post (click to show/hide)
@JiM. Bison:
Why did you throw a fit at Jiokuy? Just say you were away.@Jim Groovebot:More childish than normal? Then what's the average level of childishness that people expect out of me?
You're being way more childish than normal! Where's our ultra competent Sigma?
Also, this isn't Sigma, this is M. Bison, and I feel like recently (i.e. the past couple of years) I have not played well in games of mafia.
@Jiokuy:
You probably want to role-claim.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 17, 2014, 01:11:53 pm
What happened to RangerCado?
pfp
I checked with him, but unfortunately his schedule hasn't opened up enough for him to play. So we're still in need of a replacement.
Post by: flabort on June 17, 2014, 01:20:04 pm
Flabort still needs to explain why he said IG is confirmed benign 3rd."All but". I said he's "All but confirmed". At least, he's benign until I die, and furthermore, I don't see any contradictions between his flavor, my flavor, or what other information I can glean from anywhere.
Also Flabort I'm not gonna let you good you don't vote this close to day end
Then I'm just going to go with my gut. Toaster. I can't support my case against him, but I suspect him more than I do Jim or Jiokuy. Or NQT or IG, TWS, Toony, or Zombie for that matter. My gut says Toasty is scum. My (flawed) scumometer says Jim and Toony are scum. The evidence seems to say that the scum is not who is being most scummy (NQT, Jim, Jiokuy). So I'm going with my gut in this short time.
Also, did you mean "good" or "go".
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 01:24:03 pm
The current lynch target is Jiokuy. If no one does anything for the next four hours, he's going to be lynched. If anyone has any major objection, now's the time to put forward a compelling counter-case on someone else.
Sheep-- Jiokuy has played in other games, he's not a complete newbie. I'm not voting him for his lacklustre reads, but rather his lack of cases all day, that's just icing on the cake. He hasn't been terribly engaged with actually finding scum.
ZU I still find suspicious, but a small bit less than Jiokuy.
(In case I don't get back by day's end, though I should, if I die in the night then look who's given who a null or town vote, or said someone was 'mild scum' without making any serious attempt to press a case.)
PPE 7 replies. On phone so will try to respond soon if possible.
Post by: Ottofar on June 17, 2014, 01:26:53 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 17, 2014, 01:30:53 pm
Toaster , I just kinda forgot about it. It was for pressure, in any case.
I see.
Flabort:
Jim Unvote Did you think that by the end of the day the leading case would actually be "you OMGUS'd twice and were genuinely absent"? Were you actually afraid you might get lynched? Do you feel that maybe there is still reason for me to keep my vote on you, or am I justified in unvoting?
Toaster If it were you with 4 votes on you right now, for similar reasons of not pursuing any genuine cases, how would you be defending yourself?
I would respond by explaining who you should be voting instead of me. Also, I'd say that "not pursuing any genuine cases" is false applying to me, but I doubt that's what you had in mind.
Then I'm just going to go with my gut. Toaster. I can't support my case against him, but I suspect him more than I do Jim or Jiokuy. Or NQT or IG, TWS, Toony, or Zombie for that matter. My gut says Toasty is scum. My (flawed) scumometer says Jim and Toony are scum. The evidence seems to say that the scum is not who is being most scummy (NQT, Jim, Jiokuy). So I'm going with my gut in this short time.
So you think that no genuine cases is a legitimate reason for accumulating a fatal four votes, but an unsupportable case is worthy of your vote?
Also, if you have evidence that scummy people aren't scum, then either your evidence or scumhunting methodology is flawed.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 17, 2014, 02:19:01 pm
(In case I don't get back by day's end, though I should, if I die in the night then look who's given who a null or town vote, or said someone was 'mild scum' without making any serious attempt to press a case.)Could you give us a link to that spreadsheet table? One of us could continue it if you died.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 17, 2014, 02:22:09 pm
flabort: Ottofar
Jim Groovester: Jiokuy
Jiokuy: Imperial Guardsman, Jim Groovester, notquitethere, Persus13
notquitethere: Jack A.T.
Ottofar: TheWetSheep
Persus13: zombie urist
Toaster: flabort
ToonyMan: Toaster
zombie urist: ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Today (About 3.5 hours)
Post by: Jiokuy on June 17, 2014, 03:02:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My motivation for attacking was to stir up the game. This was my first time building a serious case on this board without another's help. He even seemed to slip up, it would have been fun to pursue it. Alas life intervened. I've found it hard to post without parroting another post's ideas.
Enh, I'm a good policy lynch I guess. I'll see if I can help with my last few hours.
Wrong.Unvote, Jiokuy, king of lurkersThat is not a very compelling reason to bandwagon. I can understand a policy lynch, but that seems downright lynchhappy. Watch him closely day 2 guys.
@notquitethere: Yeah, I've been playing poorly. I learned quite a bit though. It was a good game to play. I apologize for playing poorly enough to be the D1 mislynch.
@Flabort: Shoot, I was really hoping to participate for longer. It was certainly abrupt, but not unexpected I say.
To: everyone, if I could avoid lurking I would so it. Alas I guess I've been intimidated. Nothing like imminent death to remove most of the pressure though :).
Jim: Even with your OMGUS, overall I found you towny. I was trying to recreate RVS a few days late. I shouldn't have left so many clauses for backing out though. This is defiantly a game of confidence.
Toaster: of all the higher skill players, your actions have seemed the scummiest. (I'll post my reasons in my next post)
I understand the policy lynch, but is a mys-lynch really better than lynching a third though?
Post by: Jiokuy on June 17, 2014, 03:05:24 pm
Post by: flabort on June 17, 2014, 03:07:46 pm
Post by: Jiokuy on June 17, 2014, 03:36:44 pm
This is the problem I keep running into.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 17, 2014, 03:49:46 pm
Jim: Even with your OMGUS, overall I found you towny. I was trying to recreate RVS a few days late. I shouldn't have left so many clauses for backing out though. This is defiantly a game of confidence.Why is Jim towny?
I didn't want to turn into IG with the crazy claiming, could I get one more person to agree this is a good idea before I do it?Claim.
A solid Scum Hunter Toaster has perused many cases thoroughly with any eye for whether they are town or not. Having reviewed the thread, I can't even conjure a single criticism.How about his suspicion of Imperial Guardsman (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368329#msg5368329)? Why isn't he trying to get a claimed third-party lynched, when he would shoot him if he was a vig?
This is the problem I keep running into.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 17, 2014, 03:49:59 pm
The current lynch target is Jiokuy. If no one does anything for the next four hours, he's going to be lynched. If anyone has any major objection, now's the time to put forward a compelling counter-case on someone else.I object, because I'm not getting a scum read on him. I know his scumhunting hasn't been good, and going by a list of scumtells he looks scummy, but looking over his posts, especially recent ones, he doesn't seem to be talking like scum. I don't have a strong case on anyone else though.
You keep avoiding the actual point of my question, though it could be my wording that's at fault. You were suspicious of ZU because he wasn't posting content. Now that he is, how has your read changed?
Jiokuy:
I didn't want to turn into IG with the crazy claiming, could I get one more person to agree this is a good idea before I do it?Yes. Claim.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 17, 2014, 03:52:16 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 17, 2014, 04:00:18 pm
I'd rather lynch Imperial Guardsman or Zombie Urist than Jiokuy honestly.
Despite you being on the list of people I'd rather lynch, I agree with this statement. Jiokuy really broke town to me in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384448#msg5384448).
Sadly I'll be hard pressed to get back on before the lynch, but I'll try.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 17, 2014, 04:35:40 pm
Why did you throw a fit at Jiokuy? Just say you were away.
I made it no secret that I was gone or that I had returned and brought it up a couple times. And then I get voted for poor activity. What the hell, man, pay attention.
Jim Unvote Did you think that by the end of the day the leading case would actually be "you OMGUS'd twice and were genuinely absent"? Were you actually afraid you might get lynched?
No, also no.
Do you feel that maybe there is still reason for me to keep my vote on you, or am I justified in unvoting?
You tell me. It was your decision to vote me and then unvote me. I'm not going to bother trying to get into your head.
My motivation for attacking was to stir up the game.
Why did you feel there was a need to stir up the game?
Jim: Even with your OMGUS, overall I found you towny. I was trying to recreate RVS a few days late. I shouldn't have left so many clauses for backing out though. This is defiantly a game of confidence.
Why did you attack somebody you thought was town? And why did you attend to the game so little after that point? Pursuing a case you yourself didn't believe was playing with fire.
I understand the policy lynch, but is a mys-lynch really better than lynching a third though?
I dispute that it's a policy lynch but whatever.
Why doesn't your vote reflect your attitude? If you want to vote Imperial Guardsman the third party what's stopping you?
An excellent answer would be, 'Because there's less than two hours left in the day and I don't want to shake things up,' but why not earlier when you first posted today?
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 04:43:32 pm
Everyone: here are my spreadsheets. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B1tcmGnPy4R9Vb6rEQmi-sHGChAYSLx5Zq6HXjyPvjE/edit?usp=sharing) Make your own copy from that if you want to continue my work (I've made it read-only to stop sabotage). To prevent being accused of communicating beyond the grave, I won't make any changes to this document if I die.
Sheep, yeah I suspect him a small amount less but I always do when someone makes a conscious effort to up their game.
Post by: Jiokuy on June 17, 2014, 04:45:55 pm
I am the Wearbear. I am a town Vigilante.
I do not have any protection from night kills, if we have a doctor please help.
I was planning on targeting IG, as was asked earlier in the thread.
Jim, I didn't vote IG because it seemed like a waste, since I was planning on killing him. I am bit of a burst poster, I have several hours to play, but they are mostly back to back. At the time I started questioning you we were in the middle of the weekend lull, and I was trying to get new information :I. I apologize for my poorly executed, and several day belated attempt at RVS.
ImperialGuardsman: I'm at loathe to trust your revive ability. I prefer to lynch a mafia member, but I see you as firmly anti-town. Especially after you jumped on my bandwagon with little provocation or reason.
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 04:48:39 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 04:49:21 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 04:51:18 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 04:52:09 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 04:54:11 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 17, 2014, 05:00:16 pm
I've been getting a hail mary vibe from the stuff Jiokuy's done this late in the day anyway.
Also, Werebear from Supernatural 5 was a PGO-type role, not a vigilante, but I suppose it's possible that can change between games.
Also, I'd expect somebody with that role to spell it correctly at least.
Meph, are the possible roles in the OP always the same between games, or is there the possibility that they can change?
Post by: Jiokuy on June 17, 2014, 05:02:05 pm
ZU: Certainly another lurker, but I can't prove ZU is scum.
I'm not so sure about this vote, anyone care to chime in?
@NQT Fair point, assuming I'm not protected I'll die tonight anyways. But yeah, I got unlucky regarding the end of the day and the backlash from my foolish attempt at attacking. Except it wasn't really me getting unlucky, but the buildup of suspicion that was forestalled in the earlier days I guess. I'll do better next time. I did learn quite alot from this game.
Thanks for letting me play. :)
Post by: zombie urist on June 17, 2014, 05:04:46 pm
I think it's more useful to lynch Imperial Guardsman. Sorry I can't put much more time in.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 17, 2014, 05:07:14 pm
AFAIK, the wearbear isn't a vig, its a PGO. Monster Hunter is the vig.
Then why is Joikuy claiming to be a werebear that acts like a vigilante?
Stuff doesn't add up.
Post by: notquitethere on June 17, 2014, 05:07:24 pm
Next time, Jiokuy, try to press a case earlier and if you're definitely going to be lynched otherwise, consider claiming as soon as it looks that way.
I'm thinking at this stage, ZU & Jiokuy might be scumbuddies given how they're voting...
Post by: Tiruin on June 17, 2014, 05:09:16 pm
Though I may be absent until 2 days from now due to...issues.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 17, 2014, 05:12:06 pm
Jim Groovester - wee woo wee woo wee woo wee woo
ToonyMan - minor scum lean
flabort - town investigative
Persus13 - minor town lean
notquitethere - THE MAN MADE AN ENTIRE SPREADSHEET AND DISTRIBUTED IT TO THE TOWN. HE IS DEVOTING THIS DAY TO SCUMHUNTING.
Tiruin - likely village.
Toaster -
zombie urist - Most likely village, dead weight though
TheWetSheep - wot
Ottofar - Very townsided on the scale.
Jiokuy - Eradicate.
Imperial Guardsman - Third Party
Warning - while you were typing 3 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 17, 2014, 05:13:48 pm
Jim, I assume because they're vaguely defined in the OP, there can be a bit of variation, though isn't it mainly the knights who are vigilantes?
No, Monster Hunters are the Vigilantes. Knights are NK-immune. They have always been this way. As far as I can recall, there are no cases where the roles in the OP vary between games, which is why I'm asking Meph about it. (Okay not completely true. There are Witches and Lone Witches, which are different roles, but even these have been consistent through multiple Supernaturals.)
If there's no possibility for variation for the roles in the OP then Jiokuy is a fakeclaiming scoundrel.
Post by: zombie urist on June 17, 2014, 05:19:43 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 17, 2014, 06:28:59 pm
flabort: Ottofar
Imperial Guardsman: Jiokuy, zombie urist
Jiokuy: Imperial Guardsman, Jim Groovester, notquitethere, Persus13
notquitethere: Jack A.T.
Ottofar: TheWetSheep
Toaster: flabort
ToonyMan: Toaster
zombie urist: ToonyMan
The sun dips very low in the sky, and time has run out.
The votes are tallied, and Jiokuy has been selected. The high priest walks forward and paints the symbol of Justice upon his brow.
He twitches for a moment, and then shudders, hugging himself and curling down into a crouch as though in pain. Then his body grows rapidly. Clothing tears, fur sprouting along the exposed flesh. His face changes, growing beastial. His hands grow claws. Finally the shape of a great Bear stands before you, growling in pain and anger.
Jiokuy's voice comes from its mouth, but deeper and full of anger.
"You dare pass judgement upon me?! You who cursed me to this form? You who took my life from me and condemned me to nights as a foul beast?! I do not accept it! I reject your judgement, and I give you mine in turn!"
He attempts to slash the High Priest, who has stumbled back in fear, but as his paw gets close his eyes suddenly cloud over and the paw stops. He shudders, great waves wracking the bear's form. And then he collapses, dead.
Composing himself, the High Priest looks out at the rest of you. "Jiokuy was a Werebear, that much is obvious. But he was no friend of this town. It seems the gods had cursed him for his sins, and he in turn took it upon himself to be a force for evil as a Killer. But he was not the threat that the gods are truly worried about. We are safer now, yes, but still all in great danger. May the gods keep the Just safe tonight."
With that he dismissed you, and you feel a compulsion to return to your house before true night falls.
Night has fallen. Send in your actions!
@Jim: Roles can change between games, although it is uncommon. Sometimes the changes are minor, sometimes they are not. (Sextons no longer see Warlock activity, for instance, to make them actually useful).
Post by: Mephansteras on June 18, 2014, 04:30:44 pm
The twelve of you return to the Temple, compelled by the Ritual to fulfil your part of this Rite.
No deaths the night before. A good thing, you can only assume, but it means that evil still lurks out amongst the circle.
An evil you must find, if you are to save the town!
Day has started! It will go until ~4pm Pacific Monday
Hapah has replaced in for Tiruin.
Post by: notquitethere on June 18, 2014, 04:51:01 pm
Has anyone confirmed scum in the night? I'd assume you'd say anyway, but you know, it can't hurt to ask.
TheWetSheep: did you really think Ottofar was the best candidate for lynching yesterday?
Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?
flabort: I know you say you've got a minor investigative role. Would it be safe to share what you learned last night?
ToonyMan: Should we lynch Zombie Urist today?
Jim: Are you pleased with the resolution of the Jiokuy lynch?
Ottofar: Was Flabort really the best person to be after at the end of day 1?
Persus13: Have your reads changed on anyone given their actions at the end of Day 1?
Hapah: When you've read through the game, I'd like your reads please.
Toaster: Shooting from the hip, if you had to day kill someone right now, who would that be?
Zombie Urist: Why were you trying to press a lynch on the player most likely to be a third party. Aren't we here to kill scum?
Jack: So, am I still most likely scum in your eyes?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 18, 2014, 05:09:43 pm
Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?I already told you that Im acting as a Priest for the town, I just want flabort alive.
Post by: flabort on June 18, 2014, 05:18:46 pm
flabort: I know you say you've got a minor investigative role. Would it be safe to share what you learned last night?Sure, but it's of little enough importance. It would be safe to share what I learned, but there's little enough reason to.
Eh, I'll do it anyways. Why not, right? Don't want to hang onto it too long and die before I share (and in NSBM I successfully as scum claimed cop after the real cop held on too long, so claiming late is bad here too). I'm a sage and I get my information passively; I get information from books and stars, my power comes from learning (magic is not implied to be my power source, but from my night 0 information I know there is magic). I may have been descended from a powerful warrior, but my flavor doesn't mention it.
Night0: We're in the middle of a big honking ley line. People who want powers have tried to use it before. (This may support reference to previous games, and may support the GolemCult theory; though the former is more likely than the latter)
Night1: I went stargazing. A wandering constellation (known, ironically, as "Viliir, The Wanderer") has intersected another constellation (Known as the Mirror), forming another (Called the Death's Head). I also felt chills and an evil crackling. Even after I heated the fire up. Apparently, at this time, evil magic is at it's most potent. This is a vile omen indeed.
So I'm pretty sure this means we've got a flavor cult or a cabal of wizards on our hands, and they've got some strong power roles. Or at least very magical flavors.
Imperial Guardsman I trusted your claim earlier, and am still willing to; but are you SURE you're planning on using my blood for good? You're not part of this cult? The stars are not aligned right for you?
Hapah Welcome, feel free to let us know if Tiruin/you had/have a night action that worked in town's favor last night.
Toaster If you were scum, at this point, which team mates would you most believe to be capable of recovering from not killing last night? Or, if you're a mechanical cult (as in, converting), who would you have most liked to convert last night?
Jack Should I survive to day 3, do you think my power might reveal who is in the scum team? Do you have a flavor you'd like to claim? Maybe something to do with... golems? Vampires? Werecreatures? Witches? I'm guessing wildly here, but I suspect you have a power role of some sort.
Jim, Zombie, Otto It is day 2. What information can you share with the town? What changes in your reads do you have? Do you have any reason to be silent today?
Post by: zombie urist on June 18, 2014, 05:28:07 pm
Post by: Hapah on June 18, 2014, 05:28:43 pm
Hapah: When you've read through the game, I'd like your reads please.Working on it.
Hapah Welcome, feel free to let us know if Tiruin/you had/have a night action that worked in town's favor last night.That's an awfully loaded statement, isn't it? Why ask me and only me?
Post by: flabort on June 18, 2014, 05:36:53 pm
And also because I can process of elimination the information from role fishing to figure out who might be lying about their roles, and who might be scum.
Hapah: Sorry, I assumed that as the fresh replacement, you'd be willing to cooperate with the town for a while. I assure you, you're not the only person I intend to thoroughly investigate for role powers and loyalty to the town. I felt you were a good starting point, as I know nothing about you yet.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 18, 2014, 07:11:46 pm
Imperial Guardsman I trusted your claim earlier, and am still willing to; but are you SURE you're planning on using my blood for good? You're not part of this cult? The stars are not aligned right for you?I need your blood to kill a cult god. Nothing but good comes out of that.
Post by: Toaster on June 18, 2014, 07:49:34 pm
Toaster: Shooting from the hip, if you had to day kill someone right now, who would that be?
IG, no question about it. Worst case, we lose an unreliable res that might be used in our favor. Best case, we get rid of a dangerous non-town.
IG:
Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?I already told you that Im acting as a Priest for the town, I just want flabort alive.
That's really not worth much at all.
notquitethere - THE MAN MADE AN ENTIRE SPREADSHEET AND DISTRIBUTED IT TO THE TOWN.
This is irrelevant to his alignment.
Flabort:
Toaster If you were scum, at this point, which team mates would you most believe to be capable of recovering from not killing last night? Or, if you're a mechanical cult (as in, converting), who would you have most liked to convert last night?
Not sure what you mean by the first question. Do you mean those most able to avoid a scumslip after a theoretical failed kill? If yes, then anyone experienced should handle that no problem. For the second question, I would convert Jim because he's my ultimate Mafia-bro, or Jack because everyone thinks he's town.
Flabort:
Jack Should I survive to day 3, do you think my power might reveal who is in the scum team? Do you have a flavor you'd like to claim? Maybe something to do with... golems? Vampires? Werecreatures? Witches? I'm guessing wildly here, but I suspect you have a power role of some sort.
If he does, why are you pushing him to reveal it? This is some damned heavy rolefishing, even among a post filled with it.
ZU: Yeah. Because it's implied by my information that the evil team has strong power roles. So to find the scum find the roles.
And also because I can process of elimination the information from role fishing to figure out who might be lying about their roles, and who might be scum.
Well, at least you're honest about it. But here's the thing; if the scum team has strong roles, so does the town. Are you willing to expose town hard counters?
Hapah: Sorry, I assumed that as the fresh replacement, you'd be willing to cooperate with the town for a while.
That's an extremely presumptive view.
Jim: Now that you've had plenty of time to settle in, what's your views on things?
Post by: Jack A T on June 18, 2014, 08:20:44 pm
Alright. Looks like we probably have a cult (that is to say, a conversion-based primary scum type).
Now Jack, I resent your comment about my competency. I was trying a new strategy, and if you don't like it you should say so rather than insult me.4maskwolf: Right, I've been a bit excessively grumpy and snippy while playing lately. Sorry about that. Your strategy is still terrible, though, considering how it was actively harming your ability to read other players (pretending pressure votes are lynch votes and basing your thoughts on other players on that is not exactly going to help you), actively harming your ability to build convincing cases against other players, and actively harming your ability to avoid being lynched (just look at all the adverse attention you got for jumpiness with every pressure vote). Bad play is bad play, and I came to the conclusion that you were playing badly in a way probably not intended to be anti-town.
NQT: While your defense has generally been weak (there was little to conflict with my accusations, your evidence of your story tended to be weak, and your desperate spinning was astounding at times) (I need to look through your defenses in prior games and see how you normally defend yourself, I think), your activities at the end of Day 1 (specifically, your high-speed attempt to figure out how to best handle Jiokuy's claim, and the rapid shifting of your opinion) seem like an honest effort to figure out how to get the most town-friendly resolution of that issue. You've moved to a wary neutral read.
Unless a response is requested, I'm going to leave your last defense alone. I completely agree that we'd hit an impasse, and frankly, I'm tired of inane discussions at an increasingly great distance from any case of mine.
Jiokuy really broke town to me in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384448#msg5384448).Toaster: Please explain.
Ottofar: Do you have some more in-depth reads now, now that it is day 2?
Looking back, I find a couple people particularly off-putting.
ToonyMan: Near the end of a long, high-activity day, your main suspects were three lurkers. For lurking. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379060#msg5379060) Two of those lurkers, zombie urist and Ottofar, you said were playing as they normally did (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372069#msg5372069), but could "easily" be scum based on that. After that, you FoSed Jim for being really angry.
Toony, was there anything about zombie urist's play that made you specifically think he was scum when you voted him, or was your vote just based on not liking his "usual" playstyle? Can you explain why you suspect(ed) Jim, including how his anger indicates scumhood (if it does)? What are your current reads?
zombie urist: When you finally started posting real content, you finally gave a case that wasn't "What Jack said": a case against Persus (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379435#msg5379435) for being lazy and useless. To justify your vote, you accuse him of parroting me when dealing with Guardsman (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380605#msg5380605) (which he didn't) (for instance, Persus accused Guardsman of having just skimmed the thread to find something to accuse me of, which I had not accused Guardsman of), say his Jiokuy vote went nowhere (true, as far as I can tell), and cherry-pick a few low-content posts (only one of them being close to a clarification request) from the million posts a minute part of the game. Quite a case.
Persus13 responds by asking a bit about your case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380705#msg5380705) (see the bottom of his post). Your next post... no response. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384141#msg5384141) Finally, at the end of the day, you continue not mentioning Persus as you... note issues with Jiokuy's claim, but decide for some reason to vote Imperial Guardsman. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384806#msg5384806)
Do you disagree with my assessment of your Persus13 case? If so, how and why? If not, why did you vote for him?
What is your current position on Persus13?
Why vote for Imperial Guardsman?
What was your position on Jiokuy when you voted Imperial Guardsman?
PPE:
NQT: I did not confirm any scum overnight.
Flabort: Regarding your power, I just looked at Supernatural 2 and the sage there. Back in that game, the sage IronyOwl got some information on what third parties were in the game over 4 nights, dying night 4 as he got information on a demon. I doubt you'll have much information by Day 3, but you might have a few hints toward the identity of the main scumteam or know what Guardsman is by that point.
I shall avoid claiming/part-claiming/flavour-claiming for now, as I see little reason to. Is there a reason, aside from you having allegedly seen some flavour about evil magic, why people should be claiming? Have you considered the game balance implications of your assumption that the scum has high-power roles?
Hapah: Sorry, I assumed that as the fresh replacement, you'd be willing to cooperate with the town for a while.Wow, you're being heavy handed with the "you're not being a proper townie by not telling me about your role" manipulation, flabort.
Post by: Hapah on June 18, 2014, 10:32:39 pm
Post by: flabort on June 18, 2014, 11:55:04 pm
Flabort:Toaster If you were scum, at this point, which team mates would you most believe to be capable of recovering from not killing last night? Or, if you're a mechanical cult (as in, converting), who would you have most liked to convert last night?
Not sure what you mean by the first question. Do you mean those most able to avoid a scumslip after a theoretical failed kill? If yes, then anyone experienced should handle that no problem. For the second question, I would convert Jim because he's my ultimate Mafia-bro, or Jack because everyone thinks he's town.
Flabort:Jack Should I survive to day 3, do you think my power might reveal who is in the scum team? Do you have a flavor you'd like to claim? Maybe something to do with... golems? Vampires? Werecreatures? Witches? I'm guessing wildly here, but I suspect you have a power role of some sort.
If he does, why are you pushing him to reveal it? This is some damned heavy rolefishing, even among a post filled with it.ZU: Yeah. Because it's implied by my information that the evil team has strong power roles. So to find the scum find the roles.
And also because I can process of elimination the information from role fishing to figure out who might be lying about their roles, and who might be scum.
Well, at least you're honest about it. But here's the thing; if the scum team has strong roles, so does the town. Are you willing to expose town hard counters?Hapah: Sorry, I assumed that as the fresh replacement, you'd be willing to cooperate with the town for a while.
That's an extremely presumptive view.
Not sure why you bolded my name twice. To make sure you have my attention?
Yeah, that's what I meant by that question. Makes sense. But who do you consider "experienced" enough to avoid that scumslip?
I'm "pushing" to reveal to test who's willing to put their own lives on the line to assist in putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and find out who's willing to lie about what they may have done, and who's too cowardly to make a risky move. I'm a man of risky moves, Toaster, I prefer puzzles and gambits to waiting out and finding out who flips. Because if we wait, too many flips could be town.
Saying that I'm "exposing" town's "hard counters" is a tad... let's say that how you put it sounds riskier than the way I see it. I understand if nobody's willing to reveal for fear that scum might misuse that information, but if every towny claimed, scum would have no choice but to claim, and once the scum claimed, we'd have all the information we'd need to root out every lying scum. So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.
By "cooperate", I meant "blend in", "help", "answer the questions of". I guess it was presumptive. I guess that not everyone plays that way.
Flabort: Regarding your power, I just looked at Supernatural 2 and the sage there. Back in that game, the sage IronyOwl got some information on what third parties were in the game over 4 nights, dying night 4 as he got information on a demon. I doubt you'll have much information by Day 3, but you might have a few hints toward the identity of the main scumteam or know what Guardsman is by that point.Right. So it's even weaker than I thought.
I shall avoid claiming/part-claiming/flavour-claiming for now, as I see little reason to. Is there a reason, aside from you having allegedly seen some flavour about evil magic, why people should be claiming? Have you considered the game balance implications of your assumption that the scum has high-power roles?Hapah: Sorry, I assumed that as the fresh replacement, you'd be willing to cooperate with the town for a while.Wow, you're being heavy handed with the "you're not being a proper townie by not telling me about your role" manipulation, flabort.
The balance implication is that there aren't many of them. Town probably outnumbers scum by a greater degree than normal, OR, there is more than one scum faction (unlikely considering the lack of a kill, unless one is a convert and the other was blocked), OR there is an abundance of powerful roles on both sides. If there are powerful roles on both sides, which seems to be what you are suggesting, then mass claiming will result in most people claiming strong roles (that the scum may want to get rid of), but the scum picking roles to blend in; these roles may or may not clash with any other claimed flavor so far, and should be easier to deduce than blindly
Oh, sure, accuse the hand of being fat. :P That wasn't entirely the message I meant to infer. I meant, "I hoped you'd be willing to answer my questions, since you're newer". I did not mean "If you don't answer I'll immediately throw you into my red area of the scumometer", which wouldn't be possible anyways.
Flabort: Just out of curiosity, what would have happened if I said "Yes, I used a power and it was super townie helpful." What's the angle? Where do you go from there?
From there I take what you said, I compare it to what I already know, and I move onto another target. Once an inconsistency between what you said and what someone else says comes up, I revisit your case and grill both of you.
Since you didn't claim, I move on anyways and come back to you later.
Jim Can you claim, are you willing to? Will you help me solve the puzzle?
Toony What flavor have you got? Do you have a passive or active role?
Sheep Do you have a night kill? Do you have a preventative role (blocker, doctor, etc)? Are you willing to drop your flavor for me?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 19, 2014, 12:07:51 am
ToonyMan: Should we lynch Zombie Urist today?Yeah. Zombie Urist.
@Zombie Urist:
Can you please give me your impressions of Toaster and Jack AT? (I ask again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379060#msg5379060), and again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380637#msg5380637))
@Jack AT:
ToonyMan: Near the end of a long, high-activity day, your main suspects were three lurkers. For lurking. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379060#msg5379060) Two of those lurkers, zombie urist and Ottofar, you said were playing as they normally did (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372069#msg5372069), but could "easily" be scum based on that. After that, you FoSed Jim for being really angry.Look, I never suspected anybody for lurking. I questioned Ottofar for putting off his investigation (which is ridiculous), I questioned Jiokuy for not giving a vote late into the day, and I put forth a question towards ZU and used my hefty "lynch vote" to goad a response. If I were to vote a player for lurking it would be Tiruin (now Hapah) or Persus13.
A lurking player isn't posting, maybe you mean active-lurking?
Toony, was there anything about zombie urist's play that made you specifically think he was scum when you voted him, or was your vote just based on not liking his "usual" playstyle? Can you explain why you suspect(ed) Jim, including how his anger indicates scumhood (if it does)? What are your current reads?I'll get back to you on the first part when ZU finally notices I exist. Ignoring somebody is scummy.
I still suspect Jim, he's usually a bit more competent than he has been. He was right about Jiokuy, but he was a special Werebear SK so that doesn't really prove there was any relationship between them, good or bad.
Reads on suspects, hmmm:
Scummy
Zombie Urist - Most importantly, disregarding me.
4maskwolf/TheWetSheep - I left 4maskwolf as a target because he replaced out and I have a policy not to target people who aren't playing, I didn't expect TWS to replace so soon but it's fine. I don't have a read on TWS so this is a placeholder sadly.
Notquitethere - In contrast to Jim, posts a five chain "train of thought" spasm (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384741#msg5384741) that shouldn't happen. Trying to change the lynch an hour before day end is really skirting the line, even if you believe their claim.
Ottofar - Waiting for that promised delivery (this is why you don't wait until Day 2)
Middle Ground
Imperial Guardsman - claimed third-party, don't really trust, maybe they could actually help town?
flabort - as trust-worthy as IG really, maybe slightly better
Jim Groovester - wrote a completely logical reason why Jiokuy's claim is garbage (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384849#msg5384849) which looks good, a complete contrast to his RAGE posts that were hard to uh, read coherently
Tiruin/Hapah - give them a day to post some
Persus13 - bumped down a bit since they haven't been contributing much lately
Good Feels
Toaster - I'm starting to agree with his view of IG really, while IG is probably telling most of the truth he's just a big liability and his latest posts have been mediocre
Jack AT - scumhunting looks solid
PPE:
Flabort a mass-claim is retarded.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 19, 2014, 01:35:52 am
Has anyone confirmed scum in the night? I'd assume you'd say anyway, but you know, it can't hurt to ask.
Noooooooooope.
Jim: Are you pleased with the resolution of the Jiokuy lynch?
On one hand, yes, on the other, no.
Lynching SKs is pretty usually a good thing, but when there's a cult about it, having some firepower pointed in their direction is handy even if that same firepower is also pointed in ours. It probably would have worked out well, at least for a little bit, since Jiokuy was apparently willing to pretend to vig for a while.
I think we're better off anyway since counting on hostile third parties to help with the town's wincon is usually a pretty bad idea in the long run.
ironically
That's not irony at all!
Jack Should I survive to day 3, do you think my power might reveal who is in the scum team?
There's pretty much zero chance of that happening.
Jim, Zombie, Otto It is day 2. What information can you share with the town? What changes in your reads do you have? Do you have any reason to be silent today?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Jim Can you claim, are you willing to? Will you help me solve the puzzle?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.
I disagree entirely with your brazen rolefishing, but I have considered mass claiming as an option in fighting a cult.
My conclusion is that I think it's too early for a mass claim to be useful. If there were anything useful that could come from N1 results only, it would be somebody getting caught red-handed doing something during the night and somebody would have already claimed it.
Claiming early when there's a cult also lets the cult cherry-pick their targets, and then from there on out the usefulness of a mass claim diminishes since claims can no longer be trusted.
Jim: Now that you've had plenty of time to settle in, what's your views on things?
I've been forthcoming with my opinions so what I've said so far has been my view on things.
In any case, not having a kill muddies the water, so I think I'll need a reread to regather reads.
Brain agrees with people about zombie urist that his vote on Imperial Guardsman at the end of the day was bad. Gut says Persus13 for his vote on Imperial Guardsman on Day 1 that he later retracted.
I'll be looking into things soon.
I still suspect Jim, he's usually a bit more competent than he has been. He was right about Jiokuy, but he was a special Werebear SK so that doesn't really prove there was any relationship between them, good or bad.
I can assure you that if I am playing poorly I am not doing so intentionally.
Post by: zombie urist on June 19, 2014, 02:23:44 am
@Zombie Urist:I already answered that when I gave my list of reads and nothing has really changed since then. I noticed both times but I already responded to everything in other posts so I didn't really bother quoting you.
Can you please give me your impressions of Toaster and Jack AT? (I ask again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379060#msg5379060), and again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380637#msg5380637))
zombie urist: When you finally started posting real content, you finally gave a case that wasn't "What Jack said": a case against Persus (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379435#msg5379435) for being lazy and useless. To justify your vote, you accuse him of parroting me when dealing with Guardsman (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380605#msg5380605) (which he didn't) (for instance, Persus accused Guardsman of having just skimmed the thread to find something to accuse me of, which I had not accused Guardsman of), say his Jiokuy vote went nowhere (true, as far as I can tell), and cherry-pick a few low-content posts (only one of them being close to a clarification request) from the million posts a minute part of the game. Quite a case.
Persus13 responds by asking a bit about your case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380705#msg5380705) (see the bottom of his post). Your next post... no response. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384141#msg5384141) Finally, at the end of the day, you continue not mentioning Persus as you... note issues with Jiokuy's claim, but decide for some reason to vote Imperial Guardsman. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384806#msg5384806)
Do you disagree with my assessment of your Persus13 case? If so, how and why? If not, why did you vote for him?
What is your current position on Persus13?
Why vote for Imperial Guardsman?
What was your position on Jiokuy when you voted Imperial Guardsman?
I fail to see how Jack's not asking you a question to do with third-parties means he is a third party himself. Since I don't understand that leap plus you dived into the game attacking someone for something I don't understand and admitted you haven't been reading everything lead me to wonder if you were lazy scum.Here's where he covered the "didn't ask about third parties". I suppose the "skimming the thread" part is original, but thats not much.
List of Persus posts which are clarifying or otherwise low content. If you disagree please point them out.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368795#msg5368795
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368777#msg5368777
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368340#msg5368340
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368293#msg5368293
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367835#msg5367835
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5366606#msg5366606
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365302#msg5365302
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365252#msg5365252
Note that Persus only has 14 posts total, of which the first 2 are RVS.
I didn't respond at that time because I didn't feel like rewriting my case and instead focused my time on end-of-day stuff, especially since no one else seemed to agree with me. I did notice Jiokuy's claim didn't match, which is why I asked for a flavor claim. I wanted to be sure if he accidentally claimed the wrong role function or actually slipped. I decided to vote IG because I wasn't completely sold on Jiokuy since a lot of the mistakes he made looked like noob mistakes. IG claimed third party and also said he could be the "new element" which would be informative. I still think Persus is scummy, but right now there's more important things.
NQT: I covered your post in my response to Jack. I also look forward to your analysis of the read table.
Flabort: What's your next step now that no one is going to claim?
I'm going to claim because I think this information is important and my role isn't very powerful or useful. I am the sexton. Jiokuy's body has gone missing. NQT do you know where it went?
Post by: Jack A T on June 19, 2014, 02:34:29 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 19, 2014, 04:57:23 am
I'm going to read some of the relevant parts of the previous games and come back to you on your interpretations there.
Mass claim is not the right strategy when there's this many players still alive.
Toaster
That's reasonable— but you're not in favour of lynching him today, right?Toaster: Shooting from the hip, if you had to day kill someone right now, who would that be?IG, no question about it. Worst case, we lose an unreliable res that might be used in our favor. Best case, we get rid of a dangerous non-town.
Toony
Notquitethere - In contrast to Jim, posts a five chain "train of thought" spasm (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384741#msg5384741) that shouldn't happen. Trying to change the lynch an hour before day end is really skirting the line, even if you believe their claim.I'm not sure what your problem is here: I believed the deadline to be minutes away so I was trying to get the most out of the claim in the while there was still a chance. You can hardly accuse me of being in league with Jiokuy, so what scum incentive would there be from trying to delay his lynch?
ZU
Big analysis post is forthcoming. Probably this evening (GMT), in the next 12 hours. I can see why you'd vote 3rd party, but now we know there's probably a cult would you still want to press a 3rd party lynch?
I'm going to claim because I think this information is important and my role isn't very powerful or useful. I am the sexton. Jiokuy's body has gone missing. NQT do you know where it went?Completely missing or just that his grave was disturbed? I can't think why the body would be gone— is it just ghouls and priests that remove bodies? Why do you think I'd know something about that?
Post by: notquitethere on June 19, 2014, 07:52:18 am
Spoiler: All prior scum teams (click to show/hide)
Given that there was no kill last night but all players in the game were active, we can assume it's either one of two things:
1. A kill-team who were blocked by a guard
2. A convert-team who converted.
Flabort has claimed this sage info:
"Night0: We're in the middle of a big honking ley line. People who want powers have tried to use it before. (This may support reference to previous games, and may support the GolemCult theory; though the former is more likely than the latter)"
The Golem Cult theory isn't a theory, but a joke. Previous supernatural games don't contain golems— that's Witches Coven. There's no mention of ley lines in previous games. But this does point to a power-seeking cult as in Super 6 or 2. If it's like in Super 2 then we're laughing: scum were blocked last night and we'll just win this like a regular game. If they're a charismatic cult then we're in some small trouble depending on who they converted last night.
"Night1: I went stargazing. A wandering constellation (known, ironically, as "Viliir, The Wanderer") has intersected another constellation (Known as the Mirror), forming another (Called the Death's Head). I also felt chills and an evil crackling. Even after I heated the fire up. Apparently, at this time, evil magic is at it's most potent. This is a vile omen indeed."
Evil magic again points to generic cultists who sacrifice their victims and have a team kill and may or may not have a one-shot conversion.
Does anyone else have any insight on all this?
Post by: Toaster on June 19, 2014, 09:41:27 am
Jiokuy really broke town to me in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384448#msg5384448).Toaster: Please explain.
His words and actions felt awfully genuine to me in that post, as if he was really trying to do something useful in his dying hour. I was starting to doubt his lynch enough to make an effort to get on and see if there was a last-minute switch (my vote alone at the time wouldn't have done anything.) Then he bungled his claim. I would have voted him over that but I got on right as the day ended. Oh well.
Flabort:
Not sure why you bolded my name twice. To make sure you have my attention?
Yeah, that's what I meant by that question. Makes sense. But who do you consider "experienced" enough to avoid that scumslip?
A consequence of working in multiple tabs- sometimes I lose track a bit, and it slipped through a preview.
Honestly, I don't think it's a likely scumslip for anyone to make. Of the living players, I can't vouch for your experience and IG might slip.
I'm "pushing" to reveal to test who's willing to put their own lives on the line to assist in putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and find out who's willing to lie about what they may have done, and who's too cowardly to make a risky move. I'm a man of risky moves, Toaster, I prefer puzzles and gambits to waiting out and finding out who flips. Because if we wait, too many flips could be town.
How do you determine between scum, townies with power roles who have nothing useful, and townies with a vested interest in not claiming? (Knights jump to mind as an example of that; a role who is useful only in surprise.)
Saying that I'm "exposing" town's "hard counters" is a tad... let's say that how you put it sounds riskier than the way I see it. I understand if nobody's willing to reveal for fear that scum might misuse that information, but if every towny claimed, scum would have no choice but to claim, and once the scum claimed, we'd have all the information we'd need to root out every lying scum. So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.
I disagree with your premise that a mass claim will provide all the information we need. You're assuming that there are enough town power roles to confirm everything and insufficient scum power roles to disrupt this. The fact that we may be dealing with conversions compounds this problem.
In any case, if there was great information to report today, you would probably see a post of "I inspected [vote]Player[/vote] and he is scum."
Do you think your portent of Evil Magic could be referring to IG's role?
NQT:
ToasterThat's reasonable— but you're not in favour of lynching him today, right?Toaster: Shooting from the hip, if you had to day kill someone right now, who would that be?IG, no question about it. Worst case, we lose an unreliable res that might be used in our favor. Best case, we get rid of a dangerous non-town.
While I'd love to see him gone, he's sadly not a good lynch, especially if we're dealing with a cult. It's not totally impossible that he's a cult leader, but that'd be awfully ballsy of him to stick his neck out like that, given he painted a giant "PLEASE VIG ME" sign on his own back.
Hapah: What's your preferred method of dealing with a cult?
NQT: How does the potential for conversion affect your aggregate suspicion tracker? Does it invalidate anything that's not the current day?
Sheep: Do you still think Ottofar should be lynched? Who else do you suspect?
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 19, 2014, 09:51:04 am
NQT:
TheWetSheep: did you really think Ottofar was the best candidate for lynching yesterday?Not really. I was just trying to get a read on him, and there wasn't really a danger of him being lynched. I still don't really have any leads; Ottofar doesn't look too bad.
I still feel like you're hiding under all your "helpful content". Compiling reads and speculating on scumteam composition is something anybody can do.
Why are you disregarding ZU's information in your last post? I would think that it would be pretty important.
Jim: Why are you so sure there's a cult?
Flabort:
Sheep Do you have a night kill? Do you have a preventative role (blocker, doctor, etc)? Are you willing to drop your flavor for me?Who's interested in finding town nightkill powers? Converters of course! Why are you trying to give a cult the perfect target to convert?
PPE: Toaster, see answer to NQT.
Post by: notquitethere on June 19, 2014, 10:23:24 am
NQT: How does the potential for conversion affect your aggregate suspicion tracker? Does it invalidate anything that's not the current day?It would render the sort of thing Flabort does pretty useless, but as I just log what people say and do, I'm in a better place to spot conversions. Also, we've not killed any of the original scum team, so scummy stuff from Day 1 is still fair game.
TheWetSheep
I still feel like you're hiding under all your "helpful content". Compiling reads and speculating on scumteam composition is something anybody can do.Oh no! I'm coming across as Too Townie (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Too_Townie)! Uh... so you're saying you'd rather I not be helpful? It's something anyone could do, sure, but it's still something that should be done. And it's not everything I'm doing.
Why are you disregarding ZU's information in your last post? I would think that it would be pretty important.And why do you love ZU so much?
See your concern for me voting him here, for instance:
You were suspicious of ZU because he wasn't posting content. Now that he is, how has your read changed?
And now you're concerned his dubious Sexton claim be taken seriously. I want to hear his clarifications before I take this claim with more than a pinch of salt. We've killed one murderous third party and there's been no night kills so a ghoul is highly improbably. No one's been resurrected, so a town priest raising Jiokuy is out the question, so what else could have moved the body? The only explanation I can think of is if a scum priest raised Jiokuy and the resurrection failed, destroying the body and any kind of scum team can do that.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 19, 2014, 11:06:56 am
Jim Groovester: TheWetSheep
notquitethere: zombie urist
zombie urist: Jack A.T., notquitethere, ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: zombie urist on June 19, 2014, 11:18:33 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 19, 2014, 11:24:51 am
So where's my answers?
Post by: Persus13 on June 19, 2014, 12:41:42 pm
Post by: Hapah on June 19, 2014, 02:29:53 pm
Hapah: When you've read through the game, I'd like your reads please.I read it yesterday and skimmed it a little today, but it's hard to get reads when you weren't there, you know? I did as best I could in the spoiler below.
Spoiler: Reads. If they're not bolded I ran out of time. (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Toaster
Hapah: What's your preferred method of dealing with a cult?I don't know that I've ever played with one, actually. Best way I could think of would be to look for sudden shifts in attitudes; strong-ish cases dropped or backed away from without much in the way of explanation.
IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.
Post by: Jack A T on June 19, 2014, 03:15:09 pm
I'm "pushing" to reveal to test who's willing to put their own lives on the line to assist in putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and find out who's willing to lie about what they may have done, and who's too cowardly to make a risky move. I'm a man of risky moves, Toaster, I prefer puzzles and gambits to waiting out and finding out who flips. Because if we wait, too many flips could be town.flabort: And what has the inevitable mass unwillingness to massclaim told you about your fellow players?
Saying that I'm "exposing" town's "hard counters" is a tad... let's say that how you put it sounds riskier than the way I see it. I understand if nobody's willing to reveal for fear that scum might misuse that information, but if every towny claimed, scum would have no choice but to claim, and once the scum claimed, we'd have all the information we'd need to root out every lying scum. So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.You're making dangerously flawed assumptions.
*You can't safely assume that scum, aside from whoever does the main scum kill/convert/whatever, will lie about their powers in a massclaim. Most scum powers are town powers as well, and it's often much safer to tell the truth and justify it as pro-town than to tell a lie. Heck, scum sometimes tries to actively carry out pro-town night actions.
*You can't safely assume that you will be able to prove scum is lying if they lie. This is not CYOM. We do not have a massive network of investigative roles to all confirm each other, as that is horribly broken. There are many powers that are quite hard to confirm or deny, particularly if we don't have a tracker or watcher or whatever (or, say, if they die or get converted because the scumteam knows who they are because they claimed).
That wasn't entirely the message I meant to infer. I meant, "I hoped you'd be willing to answer my questions, since you're newer". I did not mean "If you don't answer I'll immediately throw you into my red area of the scumometer", which wouldn't be possible anyways.See, I don't see either of those messages. What I see in your post is you telling Hapah that by not telling you his role, he was not cooperating with town (implying that he should tell you his role to properly cooperate with town). I see that because that's what you wrote.
ToonyMan: I hesitate to call Ottofar an active-lurker, but yeah, active-lurking.
I'll wait for your answer to my question about zombie urist.
zombie urist: The second post in that list of Persus posts is him laying out a case against Guardsman. You seem to be stretching a bit to show inaction.
Considering your attack on Persus for low activity is clearly dependent on the LurkerTracker (I noticed the statement that he has only 14 posts, which is not true, but is what the LurkerTracker says), the LurkerTracker isn't working right, and Persus13's posts are known to be being missed by the LurkerTracker, do you still feel comfortable with this attack? What do you think of Persus's posts after this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368795#msg5368795), the last Day 1 Persus post LurkerTracker could pick up?
Another question: is your suspicion of NQT still based on the same things as it was before (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379435#msg5379435)? If not, how has it changed?
I still feel like you're hiding under all your "helpful content". Compiling reads and speculating on scumteam composition is something anybody can do.TheWetSheep: First, can you say why you feel like NQT is hiding behind this content? Second, what do you think of the rest of his actions? There's a lot missing from this statement of suspicion.
TheWetSheepNQT: Respond to the attack at hand, not something sort of like the attack at hand, please. To quote the MafiaScum wiki page titled "Too Townie":I still feel like you're hiding under all your "helpful content". Compiling reads and speculating on scumteam composition is something anybody can do.Oh no! I'm coming across as Too Townie (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Too_Townie)!
Quote
Please note that it is NOT a fallacy to claim somebody is trying to "appear" protown (especially if you can also demonstrate how there are likely sinister motives under an otherwise townish sounding post). What this is getting at are posts along the thought of "you look so town, you must be scum".Granted, there isn't exactly much to respond to in his actual attack.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 19, 2014, 03:53:32 pm
IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.They were extremely powerful.
Post by: flabort on June 19, 2014, 04:44:49 pm
That most of them are concerned with their own survival over finding and defeating the scum.I'm "pushing" to reveal to test who's willing to put their own lives on the line to assist in putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and find out who's willing to lie about what they may have done, and who's too cowardly to make a risky move. I'm a man of risky moves, Toaster, I prefer puzzles and gambits to waiting out and finding out who flips. Because if we wait, too many flips could be town.flabort: And what has the inevitable mass unwillingness to massclaim told you about your fellow players?
Quote
So what about the person with the kill/convert/whatever? They'd HAVE to lie, at least, and eliminating them will mean that we won't have to worry about the mainly anti-town actions. Right?Saying that I'm "exposing" town's "hard counters" is a tad... let's say that how you put it sounds riskier than the way I see it. I understand if nobody's willing to reveal for fear that scum might misuse that information, but if every towny claimed, scum would have no choice but to claim, and once the scum claimed, we'd have all the information we'd need to root out every lying scum. So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.You're making dangerously flawed assumptions.
*You can't safely assume that scum, aside from whoever does the main scum kill/convert/whatever, will lie about their powers in a massclaim. Most scum powers are town powers as well, and it's often much safer to tell the truth and justify it as pro-town than to tell a lie. Heck, scum sometimes tries to actively carry out pro-town night actions.
I guess it would be tougher to catch the other scum if they didn't have to be liars, but if there's a power that could be justified as helping the scum too, we could investigate that further (like, say, a revive. Which could be used to convert, like it has in the past).
Quote
*You can't safely assume that you will be able to prove scum is lying if they lie. This is not CYOM. We do not have a massive network of investigative roles to all confirm each other, as that is horribly broken. There are many powers that are quite hard to confirm or deny, particularly if we don't have a tracker or watcher or whatever (or, say, if they die or get converted because the scumteam knows who they are because they claimed).Touche. I guess words and conversations don't carry the same weight as I thought they might. Why grill them when you can use powers on them?
Quote
I wrote a harsher message than I meant to. I had not meant to imply that if he did not answer me he was not town.That wasn't entirely the message I meant to infer. I meant, "I hoped you'd be willing to answer my questions, since you're newer". I did not mean "If you don't answer I'll immediately throw you into my red area of the scumometer", which wouldn't be possible anyways.See, I don't see either of those messages. What I see in your post is you telling Hapah that by not telling you his role, he was not cooperating with town (implying that he should tell you his role to properly cooperate with town). I see that because that's what you wrote.
Flabort:If we can find and kill the converter, assuming it is a converter, before night falls again, this won't be a problem. If it is a converter, and we don't find and kill part of their team today, we're boned anyways. However, I concede that unless everyone else claims, the night kill for town should not claim.Sheep Do you have a night kill? Do you have a preventative role (blocker, doctor, etc)? Are you willing to drop your flavor for me?Who's interested in finding town nightkill powers? Converters of course! Why are you trying to give a cult the perfect target to convert?
Flabort: What's your next step now that no one is going to claim?This is relevant and interesting info. Remind me what it means when a body goes missing? Someone has tried to res Jiokuy? Someone stole Jiokuy's ability?
I'm going to claim because I think this information is important and my role isn't very powerful or useful. I am the sexton. Jiokuy's body has gone missing. NQT do you know where it went?
I would disagree with the too early argument, it's only if the claim doesn't work that the cult can cherry pick targets. However, if you share the doubts that everyone else seems to about whether a claim would work, then I guess you're not willing to help make it work to find the leader/killer, so I guess it can't work.So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.
I disagree entirely with your brazen rolefishing, but I have considered mass claiming as an option in fighting a cult.
My conclusion is that I think it's too early for a mass claim to be useful. If there were anything useful that could come from N1 results only, it would be somebody getting caught red-handed doing something during the night and somebody would have already claimed it.
Claiming early when there's a cult also lets the cult cherry-pick their targets, and then from there on out the usefulness of a mass claim diminishes since claims can no longer be trusted.
So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have). If nobody claims a protection role, then we'd know someone was probably either lying or it's for sure a convert cult, at which point we'd set up a system of checks to test for culthood.
Post by: Hapah on June 19, 2014, 05:44:34 pm
Quote from: flabort
I would disagree with the too early argument, it's only if the claim doesn't work that the cult can cherry pick targets. However, if you share the doubts that everyone else seems to about whether a claim would work, then I guess you're not willing to help make it work to find the leader/killer, so I guess it can't work.That's awfully optimistic at best and nearly suicidal at worst, isn't it? What happens if a townie makes a scumslip in that situation?
So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have). If nobody claims a protection role, then we'd know someone was probably either lying or it's for sure a convert cult, at which point we'd set up a system of checks to test for culthood.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 19, 2014, 05:51:07 pm
I think his vote on Imperial Guardsman in Day 1 was a lazy scum vote. I challenge his votes and reasoning here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379611#msg5379611) and a lot of my reasoning for this vote is borrowed from that post. Spazzes are usually pretty safe targets, Persus13 said he did not believe the flavor, which is pretty bogus, and Persus13 either missed or ignored Imperial Guardsman's posts up to his claim and flavor claim, where he drops more than a few hints about his third party wincon. Essentially, I don't believe Persus13 when he said he thought Imperial Guardsman was fakeclaiming when IG oozed sincerity.
Persus13's game has also been pretty unnoteworthy so far.
Toaster, you were voting ToonyMan at the end of the day. What happened to that vote? Surely without a kill to inform your reads your read on ToonyMan would be identical from the end of Day 1 to the start of Day 2, correct?
Dammit all the good pressure points are taken before I get to post.
When you say things like this it makes me think you're scum looking for ways to look town rather than town trying to scumhunt.
Jim: Why are you so sure there's a cult?
Because no N1 kill + starting SK. If you're going to tell me there is no cult, I will first ask you how you know, and then I will be happy.
Playing against cults is town hard mode so I'd rather there wasn't a cult but I think it's likely that there is one.
I fail to see your reasons for voting me.
And now you're concerned his dubious Sexton claim be taken seriously. I want to hear his clarifications before I take this claim with more than a pinch of salt. We've killed one murderous third party and there's been no night kills so a ghoul is highly improbably. No one's been resurrected, so a town priest raising Jiokuy is out the question, so what else could have moved the body? The only explanation I can think of is if a scum priest raised Jiokuy and the resurrection failed, destroying the body and any kind of scum team can do that.
I'm looking at your explanation here and I don't see a part where you explain why ZU's claim is dubious.
So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have). If nobody claims a protection role, then we'd know someone was probably either lying or it's for sure a convert cult, at which point we'd set up a system of checks to test for culthood.
So you want everybody to claim so you can single out the power roles and do regular scumhunting on them.
But everybody in Supernatural has a power role of some kind. So you'd end up doing regular scumhunting on everybody, which is what we're already doing, except everybody is claimed.
Why don't we just cut out the unnecessary steps and just do regular scumhunting on everybody, without claiming, and this way, everybody is happy?
The mass claim isn't happening, bro.
Post by: zombie urist on June 19, 2014, 06:14:41 pm
@Jack If the 2nd post is the only one that has content, you must agree that the other ones I posted are low content. You are stretching a bit to show action. I'll search through his newer ones later, but I don't remember anything much better.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 19, 2014, 06:17:34 pm
Pfp The body is entirely gone. No one has revived so it could be a ghoul (can eat a body to get an unstoppable kill) or a necromancer (summons a skele to beat ppl up) or something new.Both of these make perfect sense, due to both the large possibility of a cult and the lack of a kill night one.
Post by: Jack A T on June 19, 2014, 07:10:46 pm
So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have).And then it turns out the cult leader is the guy in the back who claimed guard and said he blocked someone who later confirmed they were blocked (a cultist), and was supported by a cop claimer who claimed an inno on the cult leader.
@Jack If the 2nd post is the only one that has content, you must agree that the other ones I posted are low content. You are stretching a bit to show action. I'll search through his newer ones later, but I don't remember anything much better.zombie urist: Good thing I'm not trying to show action.
How exactly is laying out a case not content?
I strongly await your thoughts on post-LurkerTracker Persus13 activity. I have a feeling the main issues with your attack were technical (LurkerTracker), and want to see your thoughts without technical issues getting in their way.
Alright. If zombie urist is telling the truth about his claim, we're likely dealing with a second serial killer along with a (very likely) cult. Interesting. We'd best focus on the main scumteam, as they're the bigger threat and a possible SK would have an interest in hitting them greater than in hitting town.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 19, 2014, 10:13:50 pm
@Zombie Urist:
Come on. You could at least copy-paste your reads from before if there's truly no change. What's with the avoidance?@Zombie Urist:I already answered that when I gave my list of reads and nothing has really changed since then. I noticed both times but I already responded to everything in other posts so I didn't really bother quoting you.
Can you please give me your impressions of Toaster and Jack AT? (I ask again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379060#msg5379060), and again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380637#msg5380637))
I'm going to claim because I think this information is important and my role isn't very powerful or useful. I am the sexton. Jiokuy's body has gone missing. NQT do you know where it went?This seems legit. You could still be a Cult Sexton however.
@Notquitethere:
ToonyIf NQT is scum:Notquitethere - In contrast to Jim, posts a five chain "train of thought" spasm (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384741#msg5384741) that shouldn't happen. Trying to change the lynch an hour before day end is really skirting the line, even if you believe their claim.I'm not sure what your problem is here: I believed the deadline to be minutes away so I was trying to get the most out of the claim in the while there was still a chance. You can hardly accuse me of being in league with Jiokuy, so what scum incentive would there be from trying to delay his lynch?
1. Jiokuy is his partner and he can divert the lynch onto somebody else to save him.
2. Jiokuy is not his partner (town or a third-party), but NQT has become aware what Jiokuy is because he claimed and/or decided it would be better to switch the lynch onto somebody else who might be more dangerous.
Anybody else could join your vote-switching wagon if they're either your scum partners, or town who have become jumpy because of the last minute changes and are second guessing themselves. Not cool.
Does anyone else have any insight on all this?The less conversions, the better.
@Jack AT:
I'll wait for your answer to my question about zombie urist.
Toony, was there anything about zombie urist's play that made you specifically think he was scum when you voted him, or was your vote just based on not liking his "usual" playstyle?With my target going for replacement I wanted to attack ZU to get some reads from him. It's a toss-up whether he's town or scum and I'd like to get a solid vibe. I voted him on Day 1 near the end of the day so I decided to label it a lynch vote...and then was ignored.
Post by: Persus13 on June 19, 2014, 10:27:34 pm
, can you read my mind, because I keep thinking of a response to someone, and then I see that you've said the same thing in your response.
Toaster:
Persus:Well, since there was no kill last night, I'm going to scrutinize Jack pretty closely, because he's the obvious convert choice, most people wouldn't mind a ZU lynch at day end today, and we should all talk to Tiruin (now Hapah) more.notquitethere:
I like your table of reads. Looks like most people think Jack A T is town, ZU is scummy, and Tiruin is null or slight scum.
What conclusions do you draw from this?
ZU:
Ohh looking at Toasters post I noticed another smallNQT contradiction He said to Toaster he was unsure of end time which is why he asked but said to me if nothing else happened that day IG would be lynched.Elaborate and quote please.
That's only half of my explanation of my original vote on IG. You picked two sentences from about 8 on why I voted IG. Despite the fact that you claim I haven't posted much.I fail to see how Jack's not asking you a question to do with third-parties means he is a third party himself. Since I don't understand that leap plus you dived into the game attacking someone for something I don't understand and admitted you haven't been reading everything lead me to wonder if you were lazy scum.Here's where he covered the "didn't ask about third parties". I suppose the "skimming the thread" part is original, but thats not much.
List of Persus posts which are clarifying or otherwise low content. If you disagree please point them out.I disagree with these. The others you do have a valid point on.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368777#msg5368777
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365302#msg5365302
Ok NQT now you're actually doing IIOAWhat's IIOA?
Flabort:
Then I'm just going to go with my gut. Toaster. I can't support my case against him, but I suspect him more than I do Jim or Jiokuy. Or NQT or IG, TWS, Toony, or Zombie for that matter. My gut says Toasty is scum. My (flawed) scumometer says Jim and Toony are scum. The evidence seems to say that the scum is not who is being most scummy (NQT, Jim, Jiokuy). So I'm going with my gut in this short time.Why Toaster instead of someone else? And why do you cite NQT, Jim and Jiokuy as evidence of scummy non-scum when none of them are confirmed town, then and now? Why does your scum meter say Toony is scum?
So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.Why early mass-claim is bad.
1. Scum can easily pull off a fake-claim (ex. Tiruin in Supernatural 6 fakeclaimed Dreamwalker? [Not sure which role specifically]), especially since only one needs to do so.
2. Scum then targets dangerous/useful power roles with their kill or convert. (For instance, if you're town, I highly doubt scum will convert or kill you because your claimed role is more useless then dangerous)
NQT:
Persus13: Have your reads changed on anyone given their actions at the end of Day 1?Flabort has become more scummy. Jim is null. You are slightly town. Otherwise no.
IG:
Why did you decide not to rez last night?Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?I already told you that Im acting as a Priest for the town, I just want flabort alive.
Explain. Now.Imperial Guardsman I trusted your claim earlier, and am still willing to; but are you SURE you're planning on using my blood for good? You're not part of this cult? The stars are not aligned right for you?I need your blood to kill a cult god. Nothing but good comes out of that.
Also, I've asked you a billion times in thread to answer my questions, and you HAVE NOT DONE IT. Please read through the thread again, find them, and answer them.
Post by: Jack A T on June 19, 2014, 10:46:12 pm
1. Jiokuy is his partner and he can divert the lynch onto somebody else to save him.ToonyMan: And do you think there is a significant chance of NQT being the partner of the SK Jiokuy? Because I rather doubt that Jiokuy had a partner, what with him being an SK. If you do think there is, why? If you don't, then what is this doing in an explanation of a scum read you posted today (with the knowledge that Jiokuy was a serial killer) in response to a question today?
Jim is null. You [NQT] are slightly town.Persus13: Well, that's certainly a useful description of the changes in your reads. Please explain both of these changes.
Post by: zombie urist on June 20, 2014, 02:26:48 am
PFP (busy day)I decided to use my time to do other stuff than quote myself.
Come on. You could at least copy-paste your reads from before if there's truly no change. What's with the avoidance?
zombie urist: Good thing I'm not trying to show action.Ok I'll give you that that post had content. But none of the other ones I listed did.
How exactly is laying out a case not content?
I strongly await your thoughts on post-LurkerTracker Persus13 activity. I have a feeling the main issues with your attack were technical (LurkerTracker), and want to see your thoughts without technical issues getting in their way.
Of his recent posts, these have low content too.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389969#msg5389969
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379292#msg5379292
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372250#msg5372250
That's once again about 1/2.
IMO this is the only one that is decent and even here his reads aren't explained very well.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379250#msg5379250
Another question: is your suspicion of NQT still based on the same things as it was before (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379435#msg5379435)? If not, how has it changed?Mostly. Details in the following posts.
But lets look at Persus first.
Post by: zombie urist on June 20, 2014, 02:27:47 am
Read quickly through the thread since my last post D1. Rereading more thoroughly with thoughts, questions, and answers. Also, Jack ATNothing of value.
, can you read my mind, because I keep thinking of a response to someone, and then I see that you've said the same thing in your response.
Low effort, answers question, no follow up.What conclusions do you draw from this?Well, since there was no kill last night, I'm going to scrutinize Jack pretty closely, because he's the obvious convert choice, most people wouldn't mind a ZU lynch at day end today, and we should all talk to Tiruin (now Hapah) more.
ZU:No questions, just asks for clarification.Ohh looking at Toasters post I noticed another smallNQT contradiction He said to Toaster he was unsure of end time which is why he asked but said to me if nothing else happened that day IG would be lynched.Elaborate and quote please.
You're right that it was a bit too early to do that. I was a bit confused over how much longer the day was going to be, but that's not really an excuse. If we played the game from scratch I'd use this tactic later in the day. This makes me enthusiastic, but it doesn't make me scum.
It wasn't a sure thing at all, but at the time I posted he was lynch-lead (and would have been more so if I hadn't voted Flabort) and so if no one had done anything else at that time he would have died and I wanted people's opinions on this.Toaster and I both asked basically the same question and he gave back two different responses.
Lets look at the entire post then.That's only half of my explanation of my original vote on IG. You picked two sentences from about 8 on why I voted IG. Despite the fact that you claim I haven't posted much.I fail to see how Jack's not asking you a question to do with third-parties means he is a third party himself. Since I don't understand that leap plus you dived into the game attacking someone for something I don't understand and admitted you haven't been reading everything lead me to wonder if you were lazy scum.Here's where he covered the "didn't ask about third parties". I suppose the "skimming the thread" part is original, but thats not much.
1.When I see something odd I question it.Firstly note that there are only 6 sentences.
2.I fail to see how Jack's not asking you a question to do with third-parties means he is a third party himself.
3.Since I don't understand that leap plus you dived into the game attacking someone for something I don't understand and admitted you haven't been reading everything lead me to wonder if you were lazy scum.
4.I've last seen you play well as town in Prince Mafia, but you didn't do as well in Round 3 as scum, so I felt your town game was better than your scum game, another reason you might have been lazy scum.
5.I voted you because it would put pressure on you, and so you were more likely to notice my question, which you didn't answer.
6.Now, why is Jack not asking about third-parties suspicious instead of oversight or focusing on going after the mafia/cult team we are facing?
1. Super generic response.
2. Repeated from Jack.
3. Related to (2)
4. Meta argument. Ok I guess.
5. Actually is a pressure vote for not answering questions. Ok too I suppose.
6. Same as (2).
So these boil down to 3 different responses.
I guess. Thanks for agreeing that your posts are low content.List of Persus posts which are clarifying or otherwise low content. If you disagree please point them out.I disagree with these. The others you do have a valid point on.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368777#msg5368777
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365302#msg5365302
What's IIOA?http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tarhalindur_Standard_Tells
Flabort:OkThen I'm just going to go with my gut. Toaster. I can't support my case against him, but I suspect him more than I do Jim or Jiokuy. Or NQT or IG, TWS, Toony, or Zombie for that matter. My gut says Toasty is scum. My (flawed) scumometer says Jim and Toony are scum. The evidence seems to say that the scum is not who is being most scummy (NQT, Jim, Jiokuy). So I'm going with my gut in this short time.Why Toaster instead of someone else? And why do you cite NQT, Jim and Jiokuy as evidence of scummy non-scum when none of them are confirmed town, then and now? Why does your scum meter say Toony is scum?
Lots of ppl covered these points already.So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.Why early mass-claim is bad.
1. Scum can easily pull off a fake-claim (ex. Tiruin in Supernatural 6 fakeclaimed Dreamwalker? [Not sure which role specifically]), especially since only one needs to do so.
2. Scum then targets dangerous/useful power roles with their kill or convert. (For instance, if you're town, I highly doubt scum will convert or kill you because your claimed role is more useless then dangerous)
Flabort has become more scummy. Jim is null. You are slightly town. Otherwise no.Super low effort. No reasons.
Why did you decide not to rez last night?Somehow missed that Jiokuy flipped SK.
More asking for clarifications....Explain. Now.
Also, I've asked you a billion times in thread to answer my questions, and you HAVE NOT DONE IT. Please read through the thread again, find them, and answer them.
Post by: zombie urist on June 20, 2014, 02:28:29 am
Answering questions....I meant you should ask more questions about stuff you found odd and other stuff like that, instead of just adding it to your spreadsheet.
You can find my reads on 4mask, Jim and NQT in my last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379250#msg5379250), and I don't have anything to add except 4maskwolf is gone, and Sheep's play so far is looking good.
I wouldn't claim an info role unless I had important information, like I found out if someone was scum.
JiokuyCase is really weak....I find your attack on Jim hypocritical.
While Jim has only 5 posts of game play, they are all pretty long with a lot of content. You on the other hand have only 9 posts, all of which are comparatively short and you have been around for the whole game, while Jim was only around Friday as well as the weekend when the amount of activity dropped significantly.
Also, Jim has been questioning me pretty thoroughly and I have yet to vote him.
ZU:Yes it is. Lots of people at this time had asked me to elaborate on NQT.I'm sure this question has never been asked before.Is that sarcasm?
Responds to question. Meh.I honestly do not know, and I prefer not to underestimate people. Going with the people are dumb explanation may be tempting, but from what I've seen it's very easy to fakeclaim, especially when people already believe you are a third-party........
More responses....It's more of the fact that his flavor, powers, and name don't match up in my mind, as well as the fact that Meph hasn't really referenced previous games before....That is a good point, I missed the "you doomed us both" part of that quote. I need to reread that section again.
notquitethere:Totally useless.
I like your table of reads. Looks like most people think Jack A T is town, ZU is scummy, and Tiruin is null or slight scum.
ZU:It doesn't really I guess but you should have something original to add. Note that Persus doesn't deny copying Jack's case.Why does a vote and a question at the start of D1 need a case attached. I don't understand your case on me.zombie urist: Alright. Until now, you were voting for NQT. You still suspect NQT. What do you think of his defenses against allegations against him so far?It makes Persus scummy because it means he copied someone else's case without adding anything new and is being lazy not contributing.Voted IG in the beginning for Jack not asking him (IG) about thirds, but Jack himself already responded to that a few posts before. link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364631#msg5364631)What makes this evidence against Persus13?
Post by: zombie urist on June 20, 2014, 02:40:21 am
ToonyMan: Should we lynch Zombie Urist today?NQT purpose in asking this is clearly to get Toony to vote me.
And why do you love ZU so much?The wording is hilariously loaded.
You're right that it was a bit too early to do that. I was a bit confused over how much longer the day was going to be, but that's not really an excuse. If we played the game from scratch I'd use this tactic later in the day. This makes me enthusiastic, but it doesn't make me scum.
It wasn't a sure thing at all, but at the time I posted he was lynch-lead (and would have been more so if I hadn't voted Flabort) and so if no one had done anything else at that time he would have died and I wanted people's opinions on this.First reply is to Toaster, second is to me. Two different answers to basically the same questions. Mentioned this in my post to Persus, but I think its worth looking at again.
Big analysis post is forthcoming. Probably this evening (GMT), in the next 12 hours. I can see why you'd vote 3rd party, but now we know there's probably a cult would you still want to press a 3rd party lynch?Still waiting...
I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.
I'm getting tired so this will be it for tonight.
Post by: notquitethere on June 20, 2014, 05:16:29 am
ZU
Also, I don't think you clarified this matter:
Completely missing or just that his grave was disturbed? I can't think why the body would be gone— is it just ghouls and priests that remove bodies? Why do you think I'd know something about that?What do you think it could be? Is a ghoul really so likely when there's already a serial killer dead?
Well, I'm pretty sure you're scum but I can see why you'd take issue with this...ToonyMan: Should we lynch Zombie Urist today?NQT purpose in asking this is clearly to get Toony to vote me.
I'm glad you find me funny.And why do you love ZU so much?The wording is hilariously loaded.
Two different answers to basically the same questions.NOPE. I was talking to Toaster about me bringing up the prosepective IG lynch, and then to you about bringing up the prospective Wolf lynch, which was occurred later. I can see how you'd make this mistake though.
Sure sure, still up and coming. And did just say 'probably'. These things do take time.Big analysis post is forthcoming. Probably this evening (GMT), in the next 12 hours. I can see why you'd vote 3rd party, but now we know there's probably a cult would you still want to press a 3rd party lynch?Still waiting...
I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.I see. If Serial Killer is the best option you've come up with and we're in a game that most likely has a cult, why are you still voting me?
Jim
I'm looking at your explanation here and I don't see a part where you explain why ZU's claim is dubious.There's been no resurrection and a ghoul seems unlikely given that we've already lynched one serial killer. A scum priest could have attempted to resurrect the Werebear to get a powerful ally, and that could have failed. Bizarrely, ZU uses this to segue into voting me again.
Toony
If NQT is scum:Yes but you plainly know that 1 is false, a why would a scum player (let alone a cultist) want to preserve the life of a killer? (Maybe to night-convert them? But Meph confirmed last night that you can't convert monster hunters, and so my guess is serial killers likewise cannot be converted.)
1. Jiokuy is his partner and he can divert the lynch onto somebody else to save him.
2. Jiokuy is not his partner (town or a third-party), but NQT has become aware what Jiokuy is because he claimed and/or decided it would be better to switch the lynch onto somebody else who might be more dangerous.
Anybody else could join your vote-switching wagon if they're either your scum partners, or town who have become jumpy because of the last minute changes and are second guessing themselves. Not cool.
Post by: notquitethere on June 20, 2014, 07:48:24 am
Jack, for all that people don't find him suspicious, has a hard time reading the vast majority of players.
Jim is even worse, unable to pick out more than two scummy seeming players
Toony, thought Jiokuy 'seemed genuine, no issues yet'. Jiokuy may rest easy knowing his ruse fooled at least one person. Only Sheep was similiarly taken in. His reads are perfunctory. His day 2 reads don't differ drastically and he explains where they do.
Flabort thinks almost everyone is town. Has zero scum reads. He half-heartedly votes Toaster at the end of the day.
Persus has a good range of healthy suspicions, notably distrusts IG. Has so far only voted 3rd parties.
Tiruin never gave her reads and Hapah's are somewhat rushed. He doesn't seem to think anyone is particularly scummy and is content to focus on IG.
Toaster gives two sets of reads and never comments on Jack, Jim, Tiruin or Sheep . He finds a few people suspicious and pursues a case on Toony and me.
ZU has a range of apparent suspicions, but can't find anything to say about Jim ,Jiokuy or Ottofar. Presses either for an IG lynch, has suspicions of Persus and has continued a case on NQT.
4mask-Sheep has very little to say about a lot of people. Kind of apoligises for ZU when saying he would be scummy, but brevity is just his style. Has only the mildest of suspicions.
Ottofar doesn't have much to say about a lot of players, he finds Jim suspicious and has a handful of other worries in other players but they're mostly undeveloped.
Imperial Guardsman is a useless scum hunter that lashes out at people that attack Flabort and has one outstanding 'mild scum lean' that he hasn't developed. If there wasn't a risk of a cult and we has mislynches to spare...
Jack, do you have a better developed sense of who's scummy or not yet?
Jim, if you had to bet on the scum team right now, who would it be?
Toony, what do you think of ZU's sexton claims?
Flabort, give me the names of three scummy players and the reason for their scummitude in order of scummitudinacity.
Persus, why should we be voting Flabort?
Hapah, are you intending on forming a case and voting someone today?
Toaster, Jack, Jim, Hapah and Sheep are all townie in your eyes then?
Ottofar, does Jim still worry you?
Imperial Guardsman, if you had a kill, who would you use it on?
ZU
What do you think it could be? Is a ghoul really so likely when there's already a serial killer dead?Ah, I notice where you replied now. You're right that a necromancer is a possibility. We'll know tonight if there are night kills.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 20, 2014, 09:15:56 am
IG:I am NOT rezzing an SK, Perseus. I can't go any farther unless you want that PM quoted which will get me modkilled, and I looked through the thread and saw nothing I did not answer.Why did you decide not to rez last night?Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?I already told you that Im acting as a Priest for the town, I just want flabort alive.Explain. Now.Imperial Guardsman I trusted your claim earlier, and am still willing to; but are you SURE you're planning on using my blood for good? You're not part of this cult? The stars are not aligned right for you?I need your blood to kill a cult god. Nothing but good comes out of that.
Also, I've asked you a billion times in thread to answer my questions, and you HAVE NOT DONE IT. Please read through the thread again, find them, and answer them.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 20, 2014, 09:18:24 am
Imperial Guardsman, if you had a kill, who would you use it on?ZU or Jim, most likely.
Post by: Hapah on June 20, 2014, 09:23:35 am
What's a necromancer do? I don't see it in the list in the OP.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 20, 2014, 09:32:50 am
PFPRevives a dead player and uses them to kill others, the killflavor is a messy beating. an SK.
What's a necromancer do? I don't see it in the list in the OP.
Post by: notquitethere on June 20, 2014, 09:41:38 am
What's a necromancer do? I don't see it in the list in the OP.Go and look at the list of roles at the end of the previous six games. Meph posted the links here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5351099#msg5351099). As IG said, Necromancer raises a dead body as a zombie (the player isn't resurrected), which can then kill people on subsequent nights. The kills can be blocked like normal, which may destroy the zombies as it mentions that they can make new ones if they need to and I can't think what else would kill a zombie in this.
Post by: Persus13 on June 20, 2014, 10:26:35 am
I think Jim is null because while he has seemed slightly scummy, because he overreacted to Jiokuy's vote, he seemed reasonable and committed to lynching Jiokuy at the end of day yesterday.Jim is null. You [NQT] are slightly town.Persus13: Well, that's certainly a useful description of the changes in your reads. Please explain both of these changes.
NQT also seemed slightly town by throwing out a lot more information then I would have suspected if NQT were scum. But his posting in real time his thought processes as he waffled back and forth between lynching Jiokuy or not could be chalked up to his unwillingness to lynch a vig claim, which he would likely do as either alignment. Actually, I still have a neutral read on NQT from the end posts. The key change was that flabort said more stuff that made him more scummy.
ZU:
Of his recent posts, these have low content too.Do you want me to cite all 1-sentance posts Jim posted promising follow-up.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389969#msg5389969
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379292#msg5379292
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5372250#msg5372250
That's once again about 1/2.
IMO this is the only one that is decent and even here his reads aren't explained very well.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379250#msg5379250
Why do low-content posts even matter to you?
If you wanted clarification on reads, ask.
Okay. Can you elaborate on and quote the evidence for this attack on NQT?ZU:No questions, just asks for clarification.Ohh looking at Toasters post I noticed another smallNQT contradiction He said to Toaster he was unsure of end time which is why he asked but said to me if nothing else happened that day IG would be lynched.Elaborate and quote please.
Why do you have two quotes on NQT in the middle of a post you said was more evidence on me? You should organize your posts based on people you're referring to.You're right that it was a bit too early to do that. I was a bit confused over how much longer the day was going to be, but that's not really an excuse. If we played the game from scratch I'd use this tactic later in the day. This makes me enthusiastic, but it doesn't make me scum.It wasn't a sure thing at all, but at the time I posted he was lynch-lead (and would have been more so if I hadn't voted Flabort) and so if no one had done anything else at that time he would have died and I wanted people's opinions on this.Toaster and I both asked basically the same question and he gave back two different responses.
Add those sentences to my post where I actually voted IG, and you have 8 sentences. And 6 is a restatement of my original question which IG didn't answer, so I think I was justified in asking it again.That's only half of my explanation of my original vote on IG. You picked two sentences from about 8 on why I voted IG. Despite the fact that you claim I haven't posted much.Lets look at the entire post then.1.When I see something odd I question it.Firstly note that there are only 6 sentences.
2.I fail to see how Jack's not asking you a question to do with third-parties means he is a third party himself.
3.Since I don't understand that leap plus you dived into the game attacking someone for something I don't understand and admitted you haven't been reading everything lead me to wonder if you were lazy scum.
4.I've last seen you play well as town in Prince Mafia, but you didn't do as well in Round 3 as scum, so I felt your town game was better than your scum game, another reason you might have been lazy scum.
5.I voted you because it would put pressure on you, and so you were more likely to notice my question, which you didn't answer.
6.Now, why is Jack not asking about third-parties suspicious instead of oversight or focusing on going after the mafia/cult team we are facing?
1. Super generic response.
2. Repeated from Jack.
3. Related to (2)
4. Meta argument. Ok I guess.
5. Actually is a pressure vote for not answering questions. Ok too I suppose.
6. Same as (2).
So these boil down to 3 different responses.
No, I'm agreeing that some of my posts from the point where the thread grew 6 pages in less then a day where low content.I guess. Thanks for agreeing that your posts are low content.List of Persus posts which are clarifying or otherwise low content. If you disagree please point them out.I disagree with these. The others you do have a valid point on.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368777#msg5368777
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5365302#msg5365302
Did it work? No, because flabort was still arguing for a massclaim. Did someone cite Tiruin's fakeclaim in S6? No. Will flabort understand why an early massclaim is bad if I help? Maybe.Lots of ppl covered these points already.So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.Why early mass-claim is bad.
1. Scum can easily pull off a fake-claim (ex. Tiruin in Supernatural 6 fakeclaimed Dreamwalker? [Not sure which role specifically]), especially since only one needs to do so.
2. Scum then targets dangerous/useful power roles with their kill or convert. (For instance, if you're town, I highly doubt scum will convert or kill you because your claimed role is more useless then dangerous)
I noticed. I wanted to make sure that IG had noticed. If he hadn't noticed and justified it a different way, I would have proof that he was fake-claiming.Why did you decide not to rez last night?Somehow missed that Jiokuy flipped SK.
NQT:
Persus, why should we be voting Flabort?Well, I'm voting him because he said some questionable things at the end of day 1 and his gut-instinct and nothing else Toaster vote. In spite of deciding his spreadsheet method is useless, he hasn't really been questioning things he finds odd, instead choosing to rolefish and call for a massclaim, which could be ascribed to him being inexperienced or him trying to get useful information for his team.
Imperial Guardsman:
Good, I'm glad you noticed the SK flip. Do you plan to use your rez as soon as a town player is lynched or dies, or as soon as a role you feel important is lynched or dies?IG:I am NOT rezzing an SK, Perseus. I can't go any farther unless you want that PM quoted which will get me modkilled, and I looked through the thread and saw nothing I did not answer.Why did you decide not to rez last night?Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?I already told you that Im acting as a Priest for the town, I just want flabort alive.Explain. Now.Imperial Guardsman I trusted your claim earlier, and am still willing to; but are you SURE you're planning on using my blood for good? You're not part of this cult? The stars are not aligned right for you?I need your blood to kill a cult god. Nothing but good comes out of that.
Also, I've asked you a billion times in thread to answer my questions, and you HAVE NOT DONE IT. Please read through the thread again, find them, and answer them.
As for the refusal to comment on the blood clarification, I assume from your comment you need flabort alive so that you can sacrifice him. When can we expect this to happen?
As for unanswered questions, answer these older ones:
Imperial GuardsmanWait, what? You've lost me and everyone else, please explain this post a little better.Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Also, you are aware that it's possible for a Supernatural game to not have third parties (ex. Supernatural 6), right?
Hapah:
When do you plan on finishing your read list.
Have you read through any of the previous Supernaturals?
If you had to day kill someone now, that wasn't IG, who would you pick?
Post by: Persus13 on June 20, 2014, 10:30:26 am
Post by: Mephansteras on June 20, 2014, 11:07:42 am
Hey, Meph, is it possible for you to fix the quotes in my previous post where I'm talking to ZU? I don't want to repost that whole section and clog up the thread.
Huh. Yeah, I suppose I can, since it tracks who last changed a post.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 20, 2014, 11:11:33 am
flabort: notquitethere, Persus13
Jim Groovester: TheWetSheep
notquitethere: zombie urist
Persus13: Imperial Guardsman, Jim Groovester
zombie urist: Jack A.T., ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 20, 2014, 11:46:34 am
Good, I'm glad you noticed the SK flip. Do you plan to use your rez as soon as a town player is lynched or dies, or as soon as a role you feel important is lynched or dies?
As for the refusal to comment on the blood clarification, I assume from your comment you need flabort alive so that you can sacrifice him. When can we expect this to happen?
As for unanswered questions, answer these older ones:Imperial GuardsmanI know supernatural has no thirds at times, I need him to help me FIGHT said god, and I will revive when I think its needed.Wait, what? You've lost me and everyone else, please explain this post a little better.Gotcha, 4maskwolf. A little bit of appeal to emotion I think, and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack? You can take that to offtopic or ask OP for permission to PM, but in the game? You are trying to make me, what, think differently or take back everything I have said today? I can see you are the confusing scum type, ready to sow confusion and chaos whenever needed?Lol you're funny.As two of the most experienced playershttp://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Authority
I take everything mafiascum says with a grain of salt because they have a distaste for the actual human element of the game, at least on the wiki pages.
Is that actually what they believe? Is mechanical balance their mafia god? Because that's the impression I get.
Also, you are aware that it's possible for a Supernatural game to not have third parties (ex. Supernatural 6), right?
Post by: flabort on June 20, 2014, 01:14:37 pm
Flabort, give me the names of three scummy players and the reason for their scummitude in order of scummitudinacity.I'll need to reread day 2 so far, but at a quick glance:
Toaster: Seems passive where I expect him to be aggressive, and aggressive where none is due. High content posts that are fluffier than mine. Quite possibly Cult Leader, imo.
Jim Groovester: Arguably justified, but his levels of "upset" are overblown. It may be his character to call people "DIPSHITTARD"s, but he seems to be using that to pretend to care, rather than genuinely caring.
Toonyman: A lower post count than anyone but the replacements. He seems to show up to reply to everything, and then disappears for long periods of time. However, most of his content has been reading pro town.
Shall I continue?
That's awfully optimistic at best and nearly suicidal at worst, isn't it? What happens if a townie makes a scumslip in that situation?Then we question them and everyone else on the scumslip, until we're sure it really is a scumslip, or we determine it's not. During the course of questioning, someone else is sure to slip up if the first slip was town.
So you want everybody to claim so you can single out the power roles and do regular scumhunting on them.I was going to say it's not regular scum hunting, but I guess you're somewhat right.
But everybody in Supernatural has a power role of some kind. So you'd end up doing regular scumhunting on everybody, which is what we're already doing, except everybody is claimed.
Why don't we just cut out the unnecessary steps and just do regular scumhunting on everybody, without claiming, and this way, everybody is happy?
The mass claim isn't happening, bro.
It basically is, but we KNOW EVERYONE'S ROLE, it turns the situation into a HIGHER PRESSURE to get the lynch RIGHT.
With regular scum hunting, everything is just a shot in the dark. The only evidence is the concrete evidence, the lines of questioning that we mostly follow resemble an Ace Attorney game. Only everyone is a prosecutor AND the judge. Which is quite silly, but true.
With everyone role claimed, the game can proceed more like a real court. Only now everyone is the Jury and the Defendant.
I guess you are right, though, the mass claim isn't happening, so I may as well drop the subject, right? Wouldn't you like that? Fine.
Flabort:Because my gut honestly believes toaster to be scum. If I put my vote on the current wagon it would look scummy, if I put my vote on ZU it would look scummy, if I put my vote back on Jim, it would look scummy, if I put my vote on IG, it would just look plain dumb, if I put my vote on Tirun (now Hapah), it would look like I'm lazy, etc.Then I'm just going to go with my gut. Toaster. I can't support my case against him, but I suspect him more than I do Jim or Jiokuy. Or NQT or IG, TWS, Toony, or Zombie for that matter. My gut says Toasty is scum. My (flawed) scumometer says Jim and Toony are scum. The evidence seems to say that the scum is not who is being most scummy (NQT, Jim, Jiokuy). So I'm going with my gut in this short time.Why Toaster instead of someone else? And why do you cite NQT, Jim and Jiokuy as evidence of scummy non-scum when none of them are confirmed town, then and now? Why does your scum meter say Toony is scum?So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.Why early mass-claim is bad.
1. Scum can easily pull off a fake-claim (ex. Tiruin in Supernatural 6 fakeclaimed Dreamwalker? [Not sure which role specifically]), especially since only one needs to do so.
2. Scum then targets dangerous/useful power roles with their kill or convert. (For instance, if you're town, I highly doubt scum will convert or kill you because your claimed role is more useless then dangerous)
My only choices were Ottofar and Toaster, and I don't feel like Ottofar is as scum as Toaster. Ottofar may be scum, but Toaster is the scum leader.
NQT seemed scummy at the time, because half the players seemed to have some sort of minor or major case on him at the time. I saw no evidence to that. I felt Jim was scummy at the time, but no one else was able or willing to find evidence to the fact, and my evidence was poor. Jiokuy, was the leading wagon at the time, so seemed scummy to others. But I again didn't see the evidence to this, and he flipped SK, not scum.
See above for why Toony is maybe scum.
1) Easily? What perfect role out there can scum "Easily" fake claim? Most fake claims I've seen have been pretty touch-and-go.
2) Assuming they have a kill or convert left. Which they won't if we - never mind. Ugh.
Toaster You said yesterday that my scum hunting methodology is flawed. You probably still think so. How can you prove that yours is not? You were voting Toonyman yesterday, for "pretending to commit", or "not committing". The way I see it you have been doing more or less the same. I don't mean committing to a lynch, but committing to your stance.
Zombie Urist What method for scum hunting do you feel is best for tracking down a possible cult team?
Imperial Guardsman Enough with the short contentless posts. Quoting yourself will not answer their questions to their satisfaction. Try rewording what you want to say, and then repeating it, followed by another paraphrase of what you're saying. "If it still doesn't satisfy your pursuers, change tact". And if that tactic doesn't work, try something else. Right now, even if you are by definition MY ally, you're grating on my nerves. Sorry.
Post by: Toaster on June 20, 2014, 02:59:13 pm
Post by: Hapah on June 20, 2014, 04:29:18 pm
Quote from: NQT
Hapah, are you intending on forming a case and voting someone today?I'm gonna try, but life is being more difficult than I thought it would be! Weekend should be fairly tame, though, so I can probably give this game a little time on Sat/Sun if nothing else.
Quote from: Persus
When do you plan on finishing your read list.In order: when I can find the time, no, and probably Ottofar (and on that last one, before you say anything: when the pot calls the kettle black, the kettle is still black). If not him then maybe you or flabort.
Have you read through any of the previous Supernaturals?
If you had to day kill someone now, that wasn't IG, who would you pick?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 20, 2014, 05:53:22 pm
ZU:He's talking about Toaster's post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5381173#msg5381173). Which I actually think is a totally valid point. However, it's still Toaster's reasoning, not ZU's. So he's being incredibly lazy again.Ohh looking at Toasters post I noticed another smallNQT contradiction He said to Toaster he was unsure of end time which is why he asked but said to me if nothing else happened that day IG would be lynched.Elaborate and quote please.
IG:I would suspect IG more of being the body snatcher.Why did you decide not to rez last night?Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?I already told you that Im acting as a Priest for the town, I just want flabort alive.
@Jack AT:
I don't believe Jiokuy had any partners. I'd rather have a complete line of reasoning.1. Jiokuy is his partner and he can divert the lynch onto somebody else to save him.ToonyMan: And do you think there is a significant chance of NQT being the partner of the SK Jiokuy? Because I rather doubt that Jiokuy had a partner, what with him being an SK. If you do think there is, why? If you don't, then what is this doing in an explanation of a scum read you posted today (with the knowledge that Jiokuy was a serial killer) in response to a question today?
@Zombie Urist:
Do you think Persus13 and NQT are both scum? Who's worse?
@Notquitethere:
ToonyWe shall ask then.If NQT is scum:Yes but you plainly know that 1 is false, and why would a scum player (let alone a cultist) want to preserve the life of a killer? (Maybe to night-convert them? But Meph confirmed last night that you can't convert monster hunters, and so my guess is serial killers likewise cannot be converted.)
1. Jiokuy is his partner and he can divert the lynch onto somebody else to save him.
2. Jiokuy is not his partner (town or a third-party), but NQT has become aware what Jiokuy is because he claimed and/or decided it would be better to switch the lynch onto somebody else who might be more dangerous.
Anybody else could join your vote-switching wagon if they're either your scum partners, or town who have become jumpy because of the last minute changes and are second guessing themselves. Not cool.
@MOD MEPH:
Could a Werebear be converted by a cult or something?
Could a Werebear be converted by a cult or something?
Toony, what do you think of ZU's sexton claims?I have actually been a Cult Sexton in Supernatural 2. I remember being pretty open about my sightings, so I wouldn't trust ZU's alignment just because he claimed, but he's most probably a real sexton.
@TheWetSheep:
Have any reads or did everybody else get to them first?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 20, 2014, 05:54:51 pm
IG:
. . .
Why did you decide not to rez last night?
Why did you ask the third party reviver why he didn't revive the third party SK?
I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.
That doesn't mean anything. Aside from his lack of denial (which, again, doesn't mean anything), is there any reason you have for thinking NQT has anything to do with the missing body?
Because I was waiting for an explanation about that and then you disappoint me.
Persus' posts
More of Persus' posts
I fail to see what this is supposed to prove. I've always maintained that picking at people post by post is an ineffective way of scumhunting, and if you look through everybody's posts you are going to find examples of weak posts.
I agree that Persus13's scumhunting has been unremarkable but I don't see how all these posts are supposed to demonstrate that.
JimI'm looking at your explanation here and I don't see a part where you explain why ZU's claim is dubious.There's been no resurrection and a ghoul seems unlikely given that we've already lynched one serial killer. A scum priest could have attempted to resurrect the Werebear to get a powerful ally, and that could have failed. Bizarrely, ZU uses this to segue into voting me again.
Are these reasons why you think zombie urist is fake claiming?
If your answer is yes, then I will ask: why would a sexton ever fake claim?
Jim, if you had to bet on the scum team right now, who would it be?
Persus13, zombie urist, TheWetSheep, with Toaster being the new convert.
I have reasons, but they are bad. This is why looking for scumteams is silly and is something I do not do nor do I generally care to see.
Reads Analysis
Is there anybody whose reads you like?
Imperial Guardsman, if you had a kill, who would you use it on?ZU or Jim, most likely.
And not the person you're voting?
Okay.
Because my gut honestly believes toaster to be scum. If I put my vote on the current wagon it would look scummy, if I put my vote on ZU it would look scummy, if I put my vote back on Jim, it would look scummy, if I put my vote on IG, it would just look plain dumb, if I put my vote on Tirun (now Hapah), it would look like I'm lazy, etc.
My only choices were Ottofar and Toaster, and I don't feel like Ottofar is as scum as Toaster. Ottofar may be scum, but Toaster is the scum leader.
Why is looking scummy such an important consideration for where you place your vote?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 20, 2014, 06:01:15 pm
flabort: notquitethere, Persus13
Jim Groovester: TheWetSheep
notquitethere: zombie urist
Persus13: Imperial Guardsman, Jim Groovester
Toaster: flabort
zombie urist: Jack A.T., ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Ottofar has been Prodded
@MOD MEPH:Attempting to convert 3rd parties can have unusual effects.
Could a Werebear be converted by a cult or something?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 20, 2014, 06:03:09 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 20, 2014, 06:04:55 pm
Why do I feel like Mephansteras is more active than half the players..
Probably because I just have to skim posts looking for stuff in Red and update a spreadsheet with votes.
Actually playing mafia takes a lot more energy during the day phase. My work all happens during the night phase. ;)
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 20, 2014, 06:40:05 pm
Oh no! I'm coming across as Too Townie (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Too_Townie)! Uh... so you're saying you'd rather I not be helpful? It's something anyone could do, sure, but it's still something that should be done. And it's not everything I'm doing.How do you parse "Too Townie" from "he's hiding under a bunch of content that could be done by scum as well as town"?
Here are your posts since I joined with game analysis/read compilation, answers, useless stuff and clarifications removed:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sheep, yeah I suspect [ZU] a small amount less but I always do when someone makes a conscious effort to up their game.Blowing off my question like this comes off as not caring much about the actual substance of your case, but keeping it as a reserve to go after.
Quote
And why do you love ZU so much?Pressuring you on two valid points about the same person is not hugely important.
Quote
And now you're concerned his dubious Sexton claim be taken seriously. I want to hear his clarifications before I take this claim with more than a pinch of salt. We've killed one murderous third party and there's been no night kills so a ghoul is highly improbably. No one's been resurrected, so a town priest raising Jiokuy is out the question, so what else could have moved the body? The only explanation I can think of is if a scum priest raised Jiokuy and the resurrection failed, destroying the body and any kind of scum team can do that.I'm not saying it should be taken as definite truth, but should at least be considered. And you didn't say anything about disbelieving it when you addressed him about it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389172#msg5389172)
Jim:
Why are you softballing?Dammit all the good pressure points are taken before I get to post.
When you say things like this it makes me think you're scum looking for ways to look town rather than town trying to scumhunt.
There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
Quote
1. There's only one way you could know for certain there's a cult.Jim: Why are you so sure there's a cult?
Because no N1 kill + starting SK. If you're going to tell me there is no cult, I will first ask you how you know, and then I will be happy.
Playing against cults is town hard mode so I'd rather there wasn't a cult but I think it's likely that there is one.
I fail to see your reasons for voting me.
2. If there is a cult, you'd be high on the list for conversion targets.
3. You spent D1 going after a new player. You're experienced enough to be able to get good reads out of more inscrutable players; why didn't you?(This wasn't one of my reasons for voting you in the first place)
Toonyman:
Quote
@TheWetSheep:I'm working on it(read my posts). I haven't been in a mafia-playing mood recently - it took me a while today to work up the dedication to make this post. School finished recently, exams are happening and I'm feeling lethargic.
Have any reads or did everybody else get to them first?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 20, 2014, 07:27:10 pm
Why are you softballing?
There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
That's exactly my problem with what you said. You want people to visibly see you pressing cases. It's not about scumhunting for you, it's about appearances, and that's scummy as hell.
I called you scummy for doing something I thought was scummy. How is this softballing?
1. There's only one way you could know for certain there's a cult.
2. If there is a cult, you'd be high on the list for conversion targets.
3. You spent D1 going after a new player. You're experienced enough to be able to get good reads out of more inscrutable players; why didn't you?(This wasn't one of my reasons for voting you in the first place)
1. Yes, this is true. But what makes you think I know there is a cult for certain? I do not know for certain, but it's not like thinking there is a cult when there's no N1 kill is an uncommon deduction. Why don't you take a look at all the people who made the same deduction?
2. Yes, arguably true. But that isn't a reason to vote for me. I guess it's convenient to cover your bases by saying 'if he wasn't already on the cult team then he certainly is now' but that's lazy reasoning. If I'm a convert then I'm not the person you really need to be lynching, so you should probably nail down your stance on whether I'm a convert or whether I was on the original team.
3. I went after the people I suspected. These were not coincident with the people whom you deem inscrutable. Further, I see no need in meeting the expectations people have of me as an experienced player, nor is failing these expectations a scumtell.
These reasons are bad. Why did you bother asking me anything if you were just going to ignore what I had to say? I explained my reasoning for thinking there was a cult and you ignored it and went 'derp herp he's on the cult that's why he knows there's a cult.'
Post by: Toaster on June 20, 2014, 09:27:36 pm
NQT:TheWetSheep: did you really think Ottofar was the best candidate for lynching yesterday?Not really. I was just trying to get a read on him, and there wasn't really a danger of him being lynched. I still don't really have any leads; Ottofar doesn't look too bad.
PPE: Toaster, see answer to NQT.
So you didn't feel the need to use your vote as a lynch vote? Noted.
Here are your posts since I joined with game analysis/read compilation, answers, useless stuff and clarifications removed:
I note you trimmed out the part where he actually took everyone's reads and analyzed them. I agree that this wasn't worth a ton, but it wasn't useless. Why do I get the feeling you're cherry-picking his posts to make him look bad?
There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
Is it because you're coming up with content entirely to look busy and involved? I think it is.
Hapah:
Quote from: ToasterHapah: What's your preferred method of dealing with a cult?I don't know that I've ever played with one, actually. Best way I could think of would be to look for sudden shifts in attitudes; strong-ish cases dropped or backed away from without much in the way of explanation.
Fair enough.
Flabort:
So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have). If nobody claims a protection role, then we'd know someone was probably either lying or it's for sure a convert cult, at which point we'd set up a system of checks to test for culthood.
There are an incredible number of assumptions being made here.
What if all four of those people are town? You'd go in focusing on them, try to lynch one, miss, try another the next day, etc etc. Eventually you'd realize that you've been barking up the wrong tree the whole game, but by then it's too late.
Toaster: Seems passive where I expect him to be aggressive, and aggressive where none is due. High content posts that are fluffier than mine. Quite possibly Cult Leader, imo.
It's almost like we have different playstyles!
Toonyman: A lower post count than anyone but the replacements. He seems to show up to reply to everything, and then disappears for long periods of time. However, most of his content has been reading pro town.
"His content is good but there's not enough of it!"
That's justification for third-scummiest player?
That's awfully optimistic at best and nearly suicidal at worst, isn't it? What happens if a townie makes a scumslip in that situation?Then we question them and everyone else on the scumslip, until we're sure it really is a scumslip, or we determine it's not. During the course of questioning, someone else is sure to slip up if the first slip was town.
You cannot count on scum to screw up for you. You need to MAKE them screw up. Guess what is unlikely to happen if you're grilling a town player? The scum screwing up.
Because my gut honestly believes toaster to be scum. If I put my vote on the current wagon it would look scummy, if I put my vote on ZU it would look scummy, if I put my vote back on Jim, it would look scummy, if I put my vote on IG, it would just look plain dumb, if I put my vote on Tirun (now Hapah), it would look like I'm lazy, etc.
My only choices were Ottofar and Toaster, and I don't feel like Ottofar is as scum as Toaster. Ottofar may be scum, but Toaster is the scum leader.
Don't forget "it looks scummy if I'm afraid to vote who I actually suspect based on what others may think." Because that's scummy too. Narrowing your scum targets based on who you can vote without looking back is incredibly self-serving and not at all a town play.
You're really flopping back and forth here, too; at first you're sure I'm scum, then you're explaining why you can't vote other people, then you're outright saying I'm the scum leader. Which is it? If you're so sure I'm scum, then it should be irrelevant why you can't vote others.
Toaster You said yesterday that my scum hunting methodology is flawed. You probably still think so. How can you prove that yours is not? You were voting Toonyman yesterday, for "pretending to commit", or "not committing". The way I see it you have been doing more or less the same. I don't mean committing to a lynch, but committing to your stance.
I can't. I've even said several times in other games that I don't consider myself a great scum hunter. Your reasoning here boils down to "I might be but so are you!" which is schoolyard logic.
Jim:
Toaster, you were voting ToonyMan at the end of the day. What happened to that vote? Surely without a kill to inform your reads your read on ToonyMan would be identical from the end of Day 1 to the start of Day 2, correct?
My read on him softened overnight, and I'm less sure now. Anyway, the lack of a kill (considering the gametype) does indeed change the nature of the game, especially if there is a further lack of kill. Been tight on time, so I'm having trouble getting hard reads everywhere- this post is an attempt to reconcile that.
Jack Should I survive to day 3, do you think my power might reveal who is in the scum team?
There's pretty much zero chance of that happening.
Him surviving to D3 or his power revealing scum?
Persus:
Flabort:Then I'm just going to go with my gut. Toaster. I can't support my case against him, but I suspect him more than I do Jim or Jiokuy. Or NQT or IG, TWS, Toony, or Zombie for that matter. My gut says Toasty is scum. My (flawed) scumometer says Jim and Toony are scum. The evidence seems to say that the scum is not who is being most scummy (NQT, Jim, Jiokuy). So I'm going with my gut in this short time.Why Toaster instead of someone else? And why do you cite NQT, Jim and Jiokuy as evidence of scummy non-scum when none of them are confirmed town, then and now? Why does your scum meter say Toony is scum?
Because he suspects me the most? Why would that be an issue? I don't understand the issues in any of this.
IG:Why did you decide not to rez last night?Imperial Guardsman: other than flailing about and shouting in all caps, how are you going to earn your survival through this day?I already told you that Im acting as a Priest for the town, I just want flabort alive.
Good, I'm glad you noticed the SK flip. Do you plan to use your rez as soon as a town player is lynched or dies, or as soon as a role you feel important is lynched or dies?
I'm not 100% convinced I believe this was a test. Why invest time in him anyway? I'm currently busy ignoring him.
ZU:
I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.
I'm getting tired so this will be it for tonight.
Not pictured: your logic that leads to this conclusion.
NQT:
I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.I see. If Serial Killer is the best option you've come up with and we're in a game that most likely has a cult, why are you still voting me?
Very much so not pictured: you denying the accusation. So are you a Necromancer or a Ghoul?
Yes but you plainly know that 1 is false, a why would a scum player (let alone a cultist) want to preserve the life of a killer? (Maybe to night-convert them? But Meph confirmed last night that you can't convert monster hunters, and so my guess is serial killers likewise cannot be converted.)
What if the scum in question is NK-immune? And "last night?" Where is this?
I notice in your reads list that damn near everyone is some flavor of "low quality of reads." Do you think that this means your standards are too high? Personally, I find it difficult to maintain high-quality reads on high numbers of players.
Toaster, Jack, Jim, Hapah and Sheep are all townie in your eyes then?
Allow me to quote myself...
Also, NQT, I'm not going to enumerate people I have weak/no read on; I'm going to be hitting the high points. If you want to know what I think about a particular player, ask me.
Since that's an ask, Jack does indeed appear fairly townie; I have no issues with his play. Jim was light D1, but then he was busy IRL. Today... he's really slow to start [1], but he's starting to pick up speed[2]. I'll give him the weekend to see how things change- if he keeps it up he shouldn't be a problem. Tiruin hardly gave any content to digest and I can't read her anyway, and Hapah hasn't posted enough to cement a read; nothing of what he has said has stood out. Sheep has gotten a couple eyebrows raised (see top of this post.)
[1] Up to and including this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5391033#msg5391033), he's mostly responding to questions.
[2] Once he adds this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394120#msg5394120), he's starting to spread his inquiries around.
Toony: Ever since your first post of the day (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388860#msg5388860) where you vote ZU, you've done pretty much nothing besides answer questions. What are you doing to get ZU lynched? Who else would you not mind seeing lynched?
Post by: Jack A T on June 21, 2014, 12:28:28 am
I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.That's all well and good, but we've almost definitely got a cult running around and you're prioritizing getting rid of serial killers over getting rid of the cult leader. I could sort of understand this vote if you felt you had nothing else to go on, but you just posted three posts explaining, post-by-post, how Persus was scummy.
And no, don't wave this away by noting your "at least" in your above statement. You've been insinuating that he's an SK (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389023#msg5389023). You've been poking at his non-denial of handling the body. Your case is about him being an SK, not cult.
So. Why are you so much more scared of SKs than the almost definite cult, my friend?
Jack, for all that people don't find him suspicious, has a hard time reading the vast majority of players.NQT: I have high standards, as they go, for even my slight reads.
Jack, do you have a better developed sense of who's scummy or not yet?Yes. Of particular note:
*zombie urist's focus on SK-hunting has moved him more deeply within the scum end of my reads.
*Now that flabort's had some time to play without the scumometer controlling him, he's hit a moderate scum lean, primarily for how his suspicions seem based less on evidence of scumhood than on the amount flabort thinks people would suspect him for holding said suspicions.
*I'm increasingly leaning towards Jim being town, in part due to gut, and in part due to his efforts to investigate everyone in ways that generally feel like the town him I've seen before. Slight town lean.
Flabort: Please provide evidence backing your Toaster read. In addition, what makes you think Jim is pretending to care (provide evidence, please)?Flabort, give me the names of three scummy players and the reason for their scummitude in order of scummitudinacity.I'll need to reread day 2 so far, but at a quick glance:
Toaster: Seems passive where I expect him to be aggressive, and aggressive where none is due. High content posts that are fluffier than mine. Quite possibly Cult Leader, imo.
Jim Groovester: Arguably justified, but his levels of "upset" are overblown. It may be his character to call people "DIPSHITTARD"s, but he seems to be using that to pretend to care, rather than genuinely caring.
Because my gut honestly believes toaster to be scum. If I put my vote on the current wagon it would look scummy, if I put my vote on ZU it would look scummy, if I put my vote back on Jim, it would look scummy, if I put my vote on IG, it would just look plain dumb, if I put my vote on Tirun (now Hapah), it would look like I'm lazy, etc.So, just to be clear:
My only choices were Ottofar and Toaster, and I don't feel like Ottofar is as scum as Toaster. Ottofar may be scum, but Toaster is the scum leader.
NQT seemed scummy at the time, because half the players seemed to have some sort of minor or major case on him at the time. I saw no evidence to that. I felt Jim was scummy at the time, but no one else was able or willing to find evidence to the fact, and my evidence was poor. Jiokuy, was the leading wagon at the time, so seemed scummy to others. But I again didn't see the evidence to this, and he flipped SK, not scum.
See above for why Toony is maybe scum.
*You consider Ottofar and Toaster your only choices for voting.
*This is because of how other votes would make you look.
*After cutting out all the targets that would make you look bad, you had to choose between Ottofar and Toaster.
*You determined that Toaster is the scum leader because...um...
*...something...
*...gut.
*You want people to hunt Jim for you.
*NQT looked scummy because people thought he looked scummy.
*You think Toony might be scum because he doesn't post often, but you think his content is pro-town, and he's not on your list of possible vote targets.
...Explain. Why so certain Toaster's the leader, especially without evidence? Why complain about people not doing your job and hunting Jim for you? Why make your appearance the core of deciding who to vote for?
Toaster You said yesterday that my scum hunting methodology is flawed. You probably still think so. How can you prove that yours is not? You were voting Toonyman yesterday, for "pretending to commit", or "not committing". The way I see it you have been doing more or less the same. I don't mean committing to a lynch, but committing to your stance.Can you provide any evidence for the significant point you have here (the lack of commitment)? Also, how is the issue of whether Toaster can prove he's the perfect scumhunter or not a relevant issue?
As a side note, please read Bring Someone Else's Role. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98843.0) Massclaims are not the magical super-scumstopping tools you argue they are.
Here are your posts since I joined with game analysis/read compilation, answers, useless stuff and clarifications removed:TheWetSheep: I love how you consider the post where NQT says he suspects you to be one of those and cut it as non-content. Trying to imply that his suspicion of you is useless, are you? Justify that cut.
Furthermore, do you consider NQT's habit of responding to questions with more questions to be useful? If not, please explain.
Toaster: Do you think NQT is a necromancer or ghoul?
Post by: flabort on June 21, 2014, 12:44:56 am
Why make your appearance the core of deciding who to vote for?OK, quick post before I go to bed tonight. I'll address your other questions first thing when I get up. (Remind me if I post and don't address them)
I'm a terrible town player. OK? I'm doing as bad as I did in GBoO, doing as badly as I did in Seer's Academy, as badly as I did in that Vanilla Werewolf game who's name I forget (The equivalent of Beginner's Mafia here). Only one of those were on this forum, but the point is clear. I'm terrible. I just don't know the good questions to ask, I'm too concerned with my own survival, and I cannot keep track of each person. I get stuff blurred together. Despite this, my gut is usually right, but saying my gut told me so is a sure way to get my case dismissed.
I tried to change that this game. Incorporate some of the game I learned as scum and incorporate it into my town game. Confidence. Risk taking/claiming. Actually pursuing the guy my gut says did it.
But I'm still the same town player at heart, and that town player is far too concerned with staying alive long enough to build his puzzle, and by being too concerned about staying alive, I'm too concerned about the way people see me. If I royally screw myself over by voting the wrong person? I'm too afraid I'll get killed for it. Back in GitP forums, where not being part of the lynch wagon was considered scummy, it meant keeping quite and voting for who everyone else was voting for. Here, where a large wagon is considered a scum plot, it means more carefully considering each potential target.
So my vote was a survival instinct.
Post by: notquitethere on June 21, 2014, 06:44:27 am
Uh huh, and why? And why aren't you voting them?Imperial Guardsman, if you had a kill, who would you use it on?ZU or Jim, most likely.
Persus
Well, I'm voting him because he said some questionable things at the end of day 1 and his gut-instinct and nothing else Toaster vote. In spite of deciding his spreadsheet method is useless, he hasn't really been questioning things he finds odd, instead choosing to rolefish and call for a massclaim, which could be ascribed to him being inexperienced or him trying to get useful information for his team.Remember he is a self-identifying puzzle-solver (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136990.msg5357841#msg5357841), though of course he could use that as a shield for trying to get away with asking more than is good for town. Still, I see a certain kind of earnestness in his cries for an early mass claim. But you don't?
Flabort
I'll need to reread day 2 so far, but at a quick glance:Your scum read on Toony isn't particularly scummy. What do you think of Zombie Urist and TheWetSheep?
Toaster: Seems passive where I expect him to be aggressive, and aggressive where none is due. High content posts that are fluffier than mine. Quite possibly Cult Leader, imo.
Jim Groovester: Arguably justified, but his levels of "upset" are overblown. It may be his character to call people "DIPSHITTARD"s, but he seems to be using that to pretend to care, rather than genuinely caring.
Toonyman: A lower post count than anyone but the replacements. He seems to show up to reply to everything, and then disappears for long periods of time. However, most of his content has been reading pro town.
Shall I continue?
Toony
I have actually been a Cult Sexton in Supernatural 2. I remember being pretty open about my sightings, so I wouldn't trust ZU's alignment just because he claimed, but he's most probably a real sexton.Noted.
Sheep
How do you parse "Too Townie" from "he's hiding under a bunch of content that could be done by scum as well as town"?You never adequately explained exactly how I was hiding under helpful content.
I think I got everything. The first post is OK, making a case on Jiokuy. The second one is a bit more at Jiokuy and a softball at IG. The third is a bunch of questions without pressure or substance behind them. The fourth doesn't really contain any pressure either - it's mostly response. So yeah, there's not much there.I'm sorry my performance disappoints you. Is there a case here?
Am I blowing off your question? I think ZU is suspicious, until we hang someone who's genuinely scum then it's hard to get a solid read on anyone.Sheep, yeah I suspect [ZU] a small amount less but I always do when someone makes a conscious effort to up their game.Blowing off my question like this comes off as not caring much about the actual substance of your case, but keeping it as a reserve to go after.
I've since come back round to thinking he's probably telling the truth, but you'll note in the post you linked to I was somewhat sceptical about his account.QuoteAnd now you're concerned his dubious Sexton claim be taken seriously. I want to hear his clarifications before I take this claim with more than a pinch of salt. We've killed one murderous third party and there's been no night kills so a ghoul is highly improbably. No one's been resurrected, so a town priest raising Jiokuy is out the question, so what else could have moved the body? The only explanation I can think of is if a scum priest raised Jiokuy and the resurrection failed, destroying the body and any kind of scum team can do that.I'm not saying it should be taken as definite truth, but should at least be considered. And you didn't say anything about disbelieving it when you addressed him about it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389172#msg5389172)
Jim
Are these reasons why you think zombie urist is fake claiming?I thought it all very unlikely at first but now I've given it a bit more thought, I think you're on to something here. Zombie Urist probably is telling the truth: his claim could easily be countered by a warlock on Day 3, and as such either we have a necromancer or ghoul (in which case, we'll find out tonight) or a scum priest failed to resurrect the werebear. The latter is the best option naturally.
If your answer is yes, then I will ask: why would a sexton ever fake claim?
Is there anybody whose reads you like?Mine, of course.
Toaster
Very much so not pictured: you denying the accusation. So are you a Necromancer or a Ghoul?I am not a Necromancer. I am not a ghoul. If you don't think I'm scum, then why are you voting me.
A whole team of NK-immune scum? Pull the other one. Also, thanks for pointing it out: I meant 'last game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4782247;topicseen#msg4782247)'.Yes but you plainly know that 1 is false, a why would a scum player (let alone a cultist) want to preserve the life of a killer? (Maybe to night-convert them? But Meph confirmed last night that you can't convert monster hunters, and so my guess is serial killers likewise cannot be converted.)What if the scum in question is NK-immune? And "last night?" Where is this?
I notice in your reads list that damn near everyone is some flavor of "low quality of reads." Do you think that this means your standards are too high? Personally, I find it difficult to maintain high-quality reads on high numbers of players.Sure, my standards are high. But I wouldn't say too high. Note, I don't think everyone is scum just because they haven't formed very good reads. I fully expect everyone's reads to improve on successive days.
Since that's an ask, Jack does indeed appear fairly townie; I have no issues with his play. Jim was light D1, but then he was busy IRL. Today... he's really slow to start [1], but he's starting to pick up speed[2]. I'll give him the weekend to see how things change- if he keeps it up he shouldn't be a problem. Tiruin hardly gave any content to digest and I can't read her anyway, and Hapah hasn't posted enough to cement a read; nothing of what he has said has stood out. Sheep has gotten a couple eyebrows raised (see top of this post.)Noted.
I'm not going to be able to guarantee posting over the rest of the weekend, but should be back on Sunday. In case I fall off a cliff or something, I'm most happy for Zombie Urist to be lynched today. Worth noting that the only people he's tried to lynch in the whole game are people he's since claimed are 3rd parties. This is particularly suspect in a potential cult game.
If you think I'm a Necromancer or Ghoul then who do you think is actually scum, ZU?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 21, 2014, 11:01:24 am
ImperialWaiting for the right time but now the time is right. ZUUh huh, and why? And why aren't you voting them?Imperial Guardsman, if you had a kill, who would you use it on?ZU or Jim, most likely.
Post by: Jack A T on June 21, 2014, 11:21:42 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 21, 2014, 11:23:02 am
Guardsman: How do you judge when the time is right for your vote? What makes this the right time?Its kinda something internal, It just felt like the wrong time before.
Post by: Toaster on June 21, 2014, 12:17:06 pm
ToasterVery much so not pictured: you denying the accusation. So are you a Necromancer or a Ghoul?I am not a Necromancer. I am not a ghoul. If you don't think I'm scum, then why are you voting me.
Who said I don't think you are scum?
A whole team of NK-immune scum? Pull the other one. Also, thanks for pointing it out: I meant 'last game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4782247;topicseen#msg4782247)'.Yes but you plainly know that 1 is false, a why would a scum player (let alone a cultist) want to preserve the life of a killer? (Maybe to night-convert them? But Meph confirmed last night that you can't convert monster hunters, and so my guess is serial killers likewise cannot be converted.)What if the scum in question is NK-immune? And "last night?" Where is this?
Doesn't have to be the whole team. Look at the last two Vampire Cult games; each time the Vampire Lord had one ally to start with. What if it's a Knight?
And oops, noted.
I notice in your reads list that damn near everyone is some flavor of "low quality of reads." Do you think that this means your standards are too high? Personally, I find it difficult to maintain high-quality reads on high numbers of players.Sure, my standards are high. But I wouldn't say too high. Note, I don't think everyone is scum just because they haven't formed very good reads. I fully expect everyone's reads to improve on successive days.
If (nearly) everyone has poor leads, how do you discern poor townie reads from scum?
Jack:
Toaster: Do you think NQT is a necromancer or ghoul?
Short answer is somewhere between "I don't know" and "I don't care."
Long answer is that it's tough to say. Necromancers have only one way to be played; they need a zombie before they can do anything else. Any Necromancer that understood their role would be zombifiying the first corpse that came along- the fact that no one would want to res Jiouky is just icing on the cake. A ghoul, on the other hand, can just go crazy with their kill, or eat corpses to be more precise and surgical with their kills. NQT is the kind of person I would expect to take the latter route. Given that, the fact that a corpse is gone doesn't tell me much, except that if it is a ghoul, the flavor is in line with what I would expect out of NQT.
To the town, it doesn't make a big difference except that a Necromancer is harder to pin down via night actions.
Flabort:
Despite this, my gut is usually right, but saying my gut told me so is a sure way to get my case dismissed.
It's okay if you're a not-great scum hunter, and if you want to listen to your gut, that's fine. Just don't let your gut lead to bias in your reads; if you think someone is scum, read their posts. If you find scum evidence to reinforce your gut, great, but don't let your gut bias your brain reads.
Post by: Hapah on June 21, 2014, 02:49:24 pm
ZU: What do you think the best fake-claim for a Necromancer or Ghoul would be?
Also,
zombie urist: Could you please just give a summary of your updated attack on Persus, with the strongest pieces of evidence? Nobody needs or wants to hear about how he said he wrote around 8 sentences when attacking IG and really used exactly 6 sentences (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392224#msg5392224). Key points with the post-Tracker material accounted for is all I want.Jack's right on this, that's an awful lot of effort if you were planning to go after someone else anyway. Why's your vote on NQT instead of Persus, when you went very nearly line-by-line to pick apart the latter?I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.That's all well and good, but we've almost definitely got a cult running around and you're prioritizing getting rid of serial killers over getting rid of the cult leader. I could sort of understand this vote if you felt you had nothing else to go on, but you just posted three posts explaining, post-by-post, how Persus was scummy.
Persus:
Quote from: Persus
-snip- ... and we should all talk to Tiruin (now Hapah) more.So why didn't you talk to me?
Flabort:
Because my gut honestly believes toaster to be scum. If I put my vote on the current wagon it would look scummy, if I put my vote on ZU it would look scummy, if I put my vote back on Jim, it would look scummy, if I put my vote on IG, it would just look plain dumb, if I put my vote on Tirun (now Hapah), it would look like I'm lazy, etc.Why is looking scummy such an important consideration for where you place your vote?
My only choices were Ottofar and Toaster, and I don't feel like Ottofar is as scum as Toaster. Ottofar may be scum, but Toaster is the scum leader.
Quote from: Toaster
Narrowing your scum targets based on who you can vote without looking back is incredibly self-serving and not at all a town play.This. If you can reasonably defend your vote then almost nothing can make it "look scummy". Either you've got something to hang your vote on or you don't; and if you don't you dig around until you do.
Spoiler: For Flabort (click to show/hide)
IG
So, just to make sure I've got this right: you killed a man to steal artifacts of great power, came to a font of magical power (the leyline) which you claim also has ties to the Cult, and you plan to use what I can only assume is unstable blood magic to open a portal to the realm of a sleeping god. And once this is done, you plan to kill it somehow? With flabort's help, I believe you said: but I imagine the sage as a weak old man with no magic powers. How's that gonna work?IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.They were extremely powerful.
Post by: notquitethere on June 21, 2014, 02:53:46 pm
Toast, you looked to be voting me accusing me of being a 3rd party. Thus implying you don't think I'm scum. Make your case clear.
I'm not basing my scum reads primarily on player's reads: those reads just present starting points for cases and a judge of player engagement which is the strongest town tell.
Post by: Ottofar on June 21, 2014, 02:55:05 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 21, 2014, 03:31:17 pm
IGIts a sleeping, depowered god. Me and flabort can kill it easily.So, just to make sure I've got this right: you killed a man to steal artifacts of great power, came to a font of magical power (the leyline) which you claim also has ties to the Cult, and you plan to use what I can only assume is unstable blood magic to open a portal to the realm of a sleeping god. And once this is done, you plan to kill it somehow? With flabort's help, I believe you said: but I imagine the sage as a weak old man with no magic powers. How's that gonna work?IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.They were extremely powerful.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 21, 2014, 03:33:04 pm
My read on [ToonyMan] softened overnight, and I'm less sure now.
But whyyyyyyyyyyyyy??????????????
What made you say, 'You know, ToonyMan isn't as bad as I thought despite having voted him.'?
Him surviving to D3 or his power revealing scum?
The power revealing scum.
stuff
Don't beat yourself up about being bad, because there are enough people in mafia games who will do that for you.
The sooner you make your primary goal finding and lynching scum instead of survival the better. Even if you screw up at least your mindset is in the right place.
Post by: flabort on June 21, 2014, 03:47:24 pm
Flabort: Please provide evidence backing your Toaster read.[1] In addition, what makes you think Jim is pretending to care (provide evidence, please)? [2]Flabort, give me the names of three scummy players and the reason for their scummitude in order of scummitudinacity.I'll need to reread day 2 so far, but at a quick glance:
Toaster: Seems passive where I expect him to be aggressive, and aggressive where none is due. High content posts that are fluffier than mine. Quite possibly Cult Leader, imo.
Jim Groovester: Arguably justified, but his levels of "upset" are overblown. It may be his character to call people "DIPSHITTARD"s, but he seems to be using that to pretend to care, rather than genuinely caring.Because my gut honestly believes toaster to be scum. If I put my vote on the current wagon it would look scummy, if I put my vote on ZU it would look scummy, if I put my vote back on Jim, it would look scummy, if I put my vote on IG, it would just look plain dumb, if I put my vote on Tirun (now Hapah), it would look like I'm lazy, etc.So, just to be clear:
My only choices were Ottofar and Toaster, and I don't feel like Ottofar is as scum as Toaster. Ottofar may be scum, but Toaster is the scum leader.
NQT seemed scummy at the time, because half the players seemed to have some sort of minor or major case on him at the time. I saw no evidence to that. I felt Jim was scummy at the time, but no one else was able or willing to find evidence to the fact, and my evidence was poor. Jiokuy, was the leading wagon at the time, so seemed scummy to others. But I again didn't see the evidence to this, and he flipped SK, not scum.
See above for why Toony is maybe scum.
*You consider Ottofar and Toaster your only choices for voting.
*This is because of how other votes would make you look.
*After cutting out all the targets that would make you look bad, you had to choose between Ottofar and Toaster. [3]
*You determined that Toaster is the scum leader because...um...
*...something...
*...gut.[3]
*You want people to hunt Jim for you.[4]
*NQT looked scummy because people thought he looked scummy.
*You think Toony might be scum because he doesn't post often, but you think his content is pro-town, and he's not on your list of possible vote targets.
...Explain. Why so certain Toaster's the leader, especially without evidence? [3] Why complain about people not doing your job and hunting Jim for you? [4]Toaster You said yesterday that my scum hunting methodology is flawed. You probably still think so. How can you prove that yours is not? You were voting Toonyman yesterday, for "pretending to commit", or "not committing". The way I see it you have been doing more or less the same. I don't mean committing to a lynch, but committing to your stance.Can you provide any evidence for the significant point you have here (the lack of commitment)? Also, how is the issue of whether Toaster can prove he's the perfect scumhunter or not a relevant issue? [5]
As a side note, please read Bring Someone Else's Role. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98843.0) Massclaims are not the magical super-scumstopping tools you argue they are. [6]
[1] In order of least damning to most damning:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
[2]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: JIM! READ HERE (click to show/hide)
[4] No, but nobody else has done any hunting on him, and I had little time remaining for that post. So I was lazy.
[5] In post self quote:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
[6] Funny. I had read that just a couple weeks ago. And they didn't really act upon the mass claim when it came out. They could have at least questioned people on the truthfulness of their claims (besides Darvi/Wall of Flesh). And this isn't a BYOR variant, and I'm pretty sure I could do better. Hmph, not like anyone would believe me, though.
[7]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Flabort:Thank you for the advice.Because my gut honestly believes toaster to be scum. If I put my vote on the current wagon it would look scummy, if I put my vote on ZU it would look scummy, if I put my vote back on Jim, it would look scummy, if I put my vote on IG, it would just look plain dumb, if I put my vote on Tirun (now Hapah), it would look like I'm lazy, etc.Why is looking scummy such an important consideration for where you place your vote?
My only choices were Ottofar and Toaster, and I don't feel like Ottofar is as scum as Toaster. Ottofar may be scum, but Toaster is the scum leader.Quote from: ToasterNarrowing your scum targets based on who you can vote without looking back is incredibly self-serving and not at all a town play.This. If you can reasonably defend your vote then almost nothing can make it "look scummy". Either you've got something to hang your vote on or you don't; and if you don't you dig around until you do.Spoiler: For Flabort (click to show/hide)
FlabortZU: Eh, he/she doesn't really ping "scum" to me. He/She seems to be maybe active lurking, but she's a step above Toonyman. AKA "Not particularly scummy".I'll need to reread day 2 so far, but at a quick glance:Your scum read on Toony isn't particularly scummy. What do you think of Zombie Urist and TheWetSheep?
Toaster: Seems passive where I expect him to be aggressive, and aggressive where none is due. High content posts that are fluffier than mine. Quite possibly Cult Leader, imo.
Jim Groovester: Arguably justified, but his levels of "upset" are overblown. It may be his character to call people "DIPSHITTARD"s, but he seems to be using that to pretend to care, rather than genuinely caring.
Toonyman: A lower post count than anyone but the replacements. He seems to show up to reply to everything, and then disappears for long periods of time. However, most of his content has been reading pro town.
Shall I continue?
TheWetSheep: I don't understand how anyone finds him scummy yet, sorry. Has a case on NQT, but half the players seem to have some sort of half-assed case on NQT, so that's a "null tell". Has a case on Jim, whom I and Ottofar also suspect.
In the foreseeable future, I predict you are one of those people. Due to the evidence I am posting above in this post. But thanks for the encouragement.stuff
Don't beat yourself up about being bad, because there are enough people in mafia games who will do that for you.
The sooner you make your primary goal finding and lynching scum instead of survival the better. Even if you screw up at least your mindset is in the right place.
Ottofar: I don't mean to buddy you, but I'm glad to find our suspicion points in the same direction, Otto. What can you contribute to, or critique about, my suspicion of Toaster and Jim?
TWS: Same question. What can you say about what I've said about Toaster and Jim?
Post by: Jack A T on June 21, 2014, 05:04:42 pm
Referring to points other players made that you agree with (like you did the first time you mentioned NQT's thoughts in your Toaster evidence) is fine (though do make sure it's not your whole case). Noting that others suspect the same player you do (like you did with your second NQT mention and your Ottofar mention) is not, however, an effective justification of your vote. It doesn't show us that Toaster is acting against the town. It doesn't show Toaster doing anything wrong. All it shows is that others claim to suspect Toaster.
Imagine me using zombie urist's old statement of agreement with me about NQT as evidence against NQT. That attack would be laughed off, and rightfully so: it doesn't show NQT doing anything wrong.
Beyond that, I'll just reiterate the advice already given: the target matters a lot less than the justification when looking at the scumminess of a vote, and gut reads are fine starts, but they're not evidence.
Toaster: Thanks for the answer, though that wasn't exactly what I meant by the question. (basically, the intent was to ask whether you thought NQT was one of the SK types you referred to or not)
Is NQT more likely an SK, or main scumteam member? Is there anyone you suspect more of being on the main scumteam, or is NQT your top suspect for both SK and main scum?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 21, 2014, 05:59:41 pm
Jim, whom I also suspect, says something suspicious in this post:Toaster - Looks like typical Toaster stuff to me. The usual strong day game. Null read.Why would he say strong day game, which should lead to a town lean, but then say null? I would argue that Toaster hasn't even had a strong game so far. Ottofar must have noticed this too, based on This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5371969#msg5371969).
This is not a contradiction. Players with significant skill and experience can play a scum game that's indistinguishable from their town game. Toaster is one of these players. That Toaster was playing his usual day game, at least as far as I observed, told me nothing about his alignment, hence the null read.
Also, bringing up that post by Ottofar does not support your point because Ottofar did not find whatever it was he was talking about, and dropped it.
He needs more time, I understand. But he ignores all RVS questions. As I recall, RVS is important to "get the conversation started", which is a "good idea". So he doesn't really care about the conversation. There weren't even many RVS questions to answer! See the spoiler below.
Nobody cares about RVS questions when the game proceeds past the RVS. I ignored them because once people start voting fo' rizzle, which people had started doing, RVS questions become irrelevant.
When you noticed this did you also notice that you are the only person to actually care that I did not answer those questions?
You skimmed. You posted. TWICE. You had a day to read after the skim. You were, for all intents and purposes, "physically present" by the time I accused you. If you weren't by the point I said this, then it's because you don't actually care about being present. And you casually dismiss my question.
This is dumb.
Making good posts in forum mafia takes a long time. At least for me. If it doesn't for you it's probably because your posts aren't good. In any case, after I skimmed the thread, it took me the better part of a day to read the thread in enough detail to get a bead on what was actually happening and get reads and ask questions.
Saying I don't care about being present at that point is insulting. Less than twenty-four hours after I reported I was back, I had a decent post up.
Get real. I'm not pretending shit in this game.
You had nothing relevant or new to say, but didn't say so.
What.
You quoted (and trimmed) a whole post of stuff I have to say, and then claim I had nothing new or relevant to say?
That's ridiculous.
"DIPSHITARD" is awfully close to "Shitlord". Maybe even worse, if not just as bad.
I shall reiterate that being a jerk doesn't make me scum.
Jim, I'd like to to answer these questions.
But why? They are completely irrelevant now. It's Day 2. Answering RVS questions from early in Day 1 is not productive or informative at this point.
[4] No, but nobody else has done any hunting on him, and I had little time remaining for that post. So I was lazy.
This is factually not true since there have been several people who have voted me over the course of the game. You mention several of them in your post.
Seems like an awful lot of defense towards Toaster. This is perhaps the most suspicious Toaster/Jim interaction post there is, actually. I honestly believe that Toaster and Jim are probably scum buddies from this post alone. Or share a quickchat at the very least.
You are mistaken in thinking it was about Toaster. It was actually about you. Toaster is perfectly able to defend himself without needing me to come to his rescue. These questions were about you and your weak cases.
Also, your post was horrible to respond to, by the way.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 21, 2014, 06:12:04 pm
I see...@MOD MEPH:Attempting to convert 3rd parties can have unusual effects.
Could a Werebear be converted by a cult or something?
@Toaster:
Toony: Ever since your first post of the day (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388860#msg5388860) where you vote ZU, you've done pretty much nothing besides answer questions. What are you doing to get ZU lynched? Who else would you not mind seeing lynched?It's true, my pressure is fairly light. I'm only asking him about one question a post. He's getting votes from other players too, and he is up on the chopping block so I'm interested in how he'll react.
Ottofar has simply been away so I'm not sure I could give a fair opinion of him.
Imperial Guardsman is annoying me, and I could easily suspect him as to the reason why Jiokuy's corpse disappeared (thanks to ZU's claim).
Flabort is crazy, but I would avoid a lynch for now until we see what's up with IG.
Notquitethere has some oddities, but I don't see why he would bus ZU. Depending on how the day plays out I may change my mind and decide IG or NQT are better lynches. ZU has already claimed after all.
Persus13 is another choice because some of his logic is...odd. I don't have any direct suspicions of him however, so don't expect to see a vote coming from my direction.
Post by: Toaster on June 21, 2014, 07:14:44 pm
Toast, you looked to be voting me accusing me of being a 3rd party. Thus implying you don't think I'm scum. Make your case clear.
Important: I define "scum" as "anti-town" instead of "Mafia team."
I'm not basing my scum reads primarily on player's reads: those reads just present starting points for cases and a judge of player engagement which is the strongest town tell.
So are most played non-engaged? How does that affect your methodology?
Jack: I will gladly answer that after NQT responds to my clarification.
Jim:
My read on [ToonyMan] softened overnight, and I'm less sure now.
But whyyyyyyyyyyyyy??????????????
What made you say, 'You know, ToonyMan isn't as bad as I thought despite having voted him.'?
I sat on it, looked over it again, and decided that nothing I accused him of had solid support. That said, he hasn't really improved things today, so he's still on my scumspect list*.
Remember, I was considering moving my vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5384606#msg5384606) even as of the end of D1, so this really shouldn't come as shocking.
Toony: So where's the Toony Tunnel on ZU?
Speaking of ZU, I really don't see the cases on him.
*Right now, in no particular order, I suspect NQT, Sheep, Flabort, and Toony. [IG is obvnontown so I hope that goes without saying]
Post by: zombie urist on June 21, 2014, 07:52:06 pm
Flabort please never use that cyan color ever again.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 21, 2014, 07:54:13 pm
I'm really busy again. Sorry. :(This isn't Cyan, its turquoise.
Flabort please never use that cyan color ever again.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 21, 2014, 07:55:44 pm
Regardless, if it bothers me as a spectator, it will bother the players.I'm really busy again. Sorry. :(This isn't Cyan, its turquoise.
Flabort please never use that cyan color ever again.
Also, the color tag is labelled cyan, so no.
Post by: Toaster on June 21, 2014, 08:00:41 pm
Post by: flabort on June 21, 2014, 09:14:15 pm
Is that in essence what you said?
Also, the two people I mentioned, Ottofar and NQT, posted that they suspect you. They did not question or grill you that I can see.
Also, why was my post "Horrible to respond to"? Was it the cyan? In that case, any post with the color navy is horrible for me to respond to. Was it the formatting? I used spoilers to cut down the wall of text.
As to why answer the questions, because you're avoiding them. Because the game went BACK to RVS for a period of time, and may go back in again if this day proves fruitless. Because the questions are hard questions, at least Toaster's and NQT's are.
Flabort please never use that cyan color ever again.I don't see what the problem is. However, as I use the darkling theme, I guess it might show up as something glaring on the other theme.
Toonyman What, exactly, makes me "crazy"? My case on Toaster? My case on Jim?
Meph(+Toaster) Since it shows who edited a post last, could Meph spoiler Toaster's big jarring image? It clashes horribly with the dark background.
Toaster Why do specifically suspect the four people you do? Have any of your other reads changed since last time you posted them?
TheWetSheep, Hapah, ZU, Persus, IG Is it crazy that I suspect Toaster and Jim of being a scum team together? Is my case against either of them stupid or unconvincing? What are your feelings on Jim? On Toaster?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 21, 2014, 09:39:29 pm
Jim So your post is, in summary, "Toaster is too strong to read, your Ottofar point is invalid, RVS questions have no use outside RVS, no I won't answer them. A good post takes hours to make, get real dumbass. You trimmed a post that has what you say I don't have, I'm a jerk doesn't mean I'm scum, you mention scum hunters that target me in your post."
Is that in essence what you said?
Yes, that is a passable summary. You can add 'And you're WRONG!' as well, but that should be implied.
Was it the formatting?
Yes.
As to why answer the questions, because you're avoiding them. Because the game went BACK to RVS for a period of time, and may go back in again if this day proves fruitless. Because the questions are hard questions, at least Toaster's and NQT's are.
You don't disagree that they're irrelevant but you still want them answered.
Whatever, have it your way. Enjoy learning nothing about the game.
Jim Groovester What style of play does a Supernatural game best suit?
The style that helps your team win. I.E., the usual strong town day game with lots of scumhunting or the scum strong day game with lots of fake scumhunting.
Jim Groovester If there is two anti-town teams or a serial killer, what would your response to hunt them be?
It depends on how much knowledge I already have about the teams, and also what's the bigger threat. I would attempt to find and eliminate the bigger threat.
This is assuming that such scumhunting finesse is possible, which I find it usually is not.
So basically I'm just going to scumhunt like normal.
Jim: Let's assume you're a Vampire Lord and it's N2. A couple less "townie" players have claimed strong roles. Would you base your conversion attempt to pick up a powerful role, or would you rather get a strong town player?
If the players have claimed then the shit has probably already hit the fan, in which case, I would need the strong roles for neutralization and for WIFOM. Under normal circumstances, the strong town players are the better choice.
Post by: Hapah on June 22, 2014, 12:09:09 pm
But what made it the right time? You haven't asked ZU anything today. Hell, you haven't asked anyone anything today. Was it the right time just because you thought you could get away with it?Guardsman: How do you judge when the time is right for your vote? What makes this the right time?Its kinda something internal, It just felt like the wrong time before.
Flabort has claimed this sage info:Best I've got is that evil lives inside the Wanderer: when he looks within himself (mirror) he finds darkness (Death's Head). Doesn't actually get us anywhere and it's kinda obvious, but you did ask.
"Night0: We're in the middle of a big honking ley line. People who want powers have tried to use it before. (This may support reference to previous games, and may support the GolemCult theory; though the former is more likely than the latter)"
"Night1: I went stargazing. A wandering constellation (known, ironically, as "Viliir, The Wanderer") has intersected another constellation (Known as the Mirror), forming another (Called the Death's Head). I also felt chills and an evil crackling. Even after I heated the fire up. Apparently, at this time, evil magic is at it's most potent. This is a vile omen indeed."
Evil magic again points to generic cultists who sacrifice their victims and have a team kill and may or may not have a one-shot conversion.
Does anyone else have any insight on all this?
@Toaster:Why'd you vote him in the first place, again? For the voteswap at the end of D1, or for not answering your request for reads? Something else?Toony: Ever since your first post of the day (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388860#msg5388860) where you vote ZU, you've done pretty much nothing besides answer questions. What are you doing to get ZU lynched? Who else would you not mind seeing lynched?It's true, my pressure is fairly light. I'm only asking him about one question a post. He's getting votes from other players too, and he is up on the chopping block so I'm interested in how he'll react.
Post by: notquitethere on June 22, 2014, 01:48:38 pm
Important: I define "scum" as "anti-town" instead of "Mafia team."OK. I'm town though and have never claimed otherwise. On what basis do you make your attack? You've never denied being a necromancer or ghoul, should I vote you for that?
No, most players are moderately engaged and some players are only lightly engaged. It's not just the reads I look at, but also (mostly) the cases people actually press.I'm not basing my scum reads primarily on player's reads: those reads just present starting points for cases and a judge of player engagement which is the strongest town tell.So are most played non-engaged? How does that affect your methodology?
Ottofar I get that you're busy, but do you intend to make use of your vote today?
Hapah, you've not made a single case all day. Tiruin, while she was here, managed two weak votes which she rescinded. Do you trust the rest of us to lynch scum on your behalf?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 22, 2014, 06:12:40 pm
flabort: Persus13
Jim Groovester: TheWetSheep
notquitethere: Toaster, zombie urist
Persus13: Jim Groovester
Hapah: notquitethere
Toaster: flabort
zombie urist: Imperial Guardsman, Jack A.T., ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2014, 06:34:21 pm
IG, Jack, Toony What about ZU justifies your votes? If you don't change votes, ZU is the current lynch leader. Are you really OK with that?
Toaster, Jim What about NQT and Persus justifies your votes?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 22, 2014, 06:36:23 pm
IG, Jack, Toony What about ZU justifies your votes? If you don't change votes, ZU is the current lynch leader. Are you really OK with that?IDGAF, ZU has contributed absolutely nothing.
Post by: notquitethere on June 22, 2014, 06:39:12 pm
IDGAF, ZU has contributed absolutely nothing.Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. What do you think of his sexton claim?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 22, 2014, 06:39:43 pm
If it isn't a fake claim, we are screwed.IDGAF, ZU has contributed absolutely nothing.Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. What do you think of his sexton claim?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 22, 2014, 07:02:08 pm
Toony: So where's the Toony Tunnel on ZU?Hmmm?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJSqlkX5tEcNice song.
@Flabort:
Toonyman What, exactly, makes me "crazy"? My case on Toaster? My case on Jim?Telling everybody to claim.
IG, Jack, Toony What about ZU justifies your votes? If you don't change votes, ZU is the current lynch leader. Are you really OK with that?If I'm not pressuring him very hard, he's not trying to do anything about it very hard either. As of this post I am a-okay with a ZU lynch.
@Hapah:
Because I wanted to see if he was scum. I'm placing my bets that he's a Cult Sexton at this point.@Toaster:Why'd you vote him in the first place, again? For the voteswap at the end of D1, or for not answering your request for reads? Something else?Toony: Ever since your first post of the day (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388860#msg5388860) where you vote ZU, you've done pretty much nothing besides answer questions. What are you doing to get ZU lynched? Who else would you not mind seeing lynched?It's true, my pressure is fairly light. I'm only asking him about one question a post. He's getting votes from other players too, and he is up on the chopping block so I'm interested in how he'll react.
@Imperial Guardsman:
Why is that?If it isn't a fake claim, we are screwed.IDGAF, ZU has contributed absolutely nothing.Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. What do you think of his sexton claim?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 22, 2014, 07:06:09 pm
@Imperial Guardsman:Because we either have an SK or an SK with an unstoppable attack, both of which are incredibly dangerous.Why is that?If it isn't a fake claim, we are screwed.IDGAF, ZU has contributed absolutely nothing.Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. What do you think of his sexton claim?
Post by: Jack A T on June 22, 2014, 07:11:16 pm
On ZU: He's gone from his initial parroting, uselessness (with an odd last-minute third party vote) to his current prioritization of serial killers over the almost-definite cult when it comes to lynching. The guy even has another suspect he recently spent three consecutive posts (2 of which were massive walls of text) attacking, and he'd rather go for someone he suspects is a serial killer. He's a fine lynch target, in my eyes.
If you don't change votes, ZU is the current lynch leader. Are you really OK with that?flabort: Yes.
I must say, I love the "really" there. Is there a reason why I shouldn't be OK with a ZU lynch?
Post by: zombie urist on June 22, 2014, 07:50:28 pm
You're a third party who is "we"?If it isn't a fake claim, we are screwed.IDGAF, ZU has contributed absolutely nothing.Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. What do you think of his sexton claim?
NQT I'm basically 100% sure is SK or at least anti-town. I'm not prioritizing SK over cult because no one's given me convincing evidence that a cult exists. The only evidence is "no NK" which could be explained by so many other factors.
Jack: I already talked about Persus enough and I'm not wasting anymore time on this. I already pointed out that his posts are low content, are mostly clarifying ("so you mean this...") and passive.
If I'm not pressuring him very hard, he's not trying to do anything about it very hard either. As of this post I am a-okay with a ZU lynch.That's b/c you aren't pressing very hard. ::)
extend
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 22, 2014, 07:52:36 pm
Toaster, Jim What about NQT and Persus justifies your votes?
I stated my reasons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5391033#msg5391033).
If it isn't a fake claim, we are screwed.
Do you think it's a fake claim?
NQT I'm basically 100% sure is SK or at least anti-town.
You have never explained why you think this.
Hurry up and explain it, goddammit.
Extend.
Hrm.
There are several people I want to hear more from but I don't really want to extend the game since they're probably just going to post once if the game does end up being extended.
Meph, can you prod any players who need it? In particular, can you prod Ottofar, TheWetSheep, and Persus13 if they need them?
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2014, 08:29:40 pm
If you don't change votes, ZU is the current lynch leader. Are you really OK with that?flabort: Yes.
I must say, I love the "really" there. Is there a reason why I shouldn't be OK with a ZU lynch?
There are probably better targets? If you think ZU is the best target to lynch, go ahead, but I'm keeping my Toaster vote, because I don't believe that ZU is scum. It seems... my brain doesn't process it right, but it seems illogical. It could happen, but I'm not seeing it here.
Post by: Hapah on June 23, 2014, 01:13:50 am
Anyone who has been in Supernaturals before or read the previous ones: Have there ever been instances of people with multiple roles? Not like a Cult Sexton (since I think Cult is just an alignment thing and not an ability thing in and of itself), but something like a Sexton-Sage or similar.
Flabort:
TheWetSheep, Hapah, ZU, Persus, IG Is it crazy that I suspect Toaster and Jim of being a scum team together? Is my case against either of them stupid or unconvincing? What are your feelings on Jim? On Toaster?Jim leans town to me, no opinion on Toaster. Jim's doing alright at taking people to task, but he's a little more critical than I remember him being. Then again, it's been months since I've played, and I honestly can't even remember the last game I played with him. I haven't seen anything from Toaster that raises eyebrows.
NQT
Hapah, you've not made a single case all day. Tiruin, while she was here, managed two weak votes which she rescinded. Do you trust the rest of us to lynch scum on your behalf?To be fair, yesterday's the first day I had time to properly play and I haven't touched this stuff in months. But no, I don't.
Toony
@Hapah:I'm not sure I follow, how does voting him accomplish that? I realize nobody's got anything solid to go on but I don't see it.Because I wanted to see if he was scum. I'm placing my bets that he's a Cult Sexton at this point.@Toaster:Why'd you vote him in the first place, again? For the voteswap at the end of D1, or for not answering your request for reads? Something else?Toony: Ever since your first post of the day (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388860#msg5388860) where you vote ZU, you've done pretty much nothing besides answer questions. What are you doing to get ZU lynched? Who else would you not mind seeing lynched?It's true, my pressure is fairly light. I'm only asking him about one question a post. He's getting votes from other players too, and he is up on the chopping block so I'm interested in how he'll react.
ZU: Again, what do you think the best fake-claim for a Necromancer or Ghoul would be?
Quote from: ZU
NQT I'm basically 100% sure is SK or at least anti-town. I'm not prioritizing SK over cult because no one's given me convincing evidence that a cult exists. The only evidence is "no NK" which could be explained by so many other factors.And how is that? I mean, NQT is rubbing me a little wrong, but I've got nothing I could hang a vote on yet.
IG
Pot and kettle, IG. What have you done today?IG, Jack, Toony What about ZU justifies your votes? If you don't change votes, ZU is the current lynch leader. Are you really OK with that?IDGAF, ZU has contributed absolutely nothing.
And what's he gonna do, run over with with a Rascal? Hit it with his cane? Do you even know that he'd help you? Your claim keeps smelling worse the more I think about it.IGIts a sleeping, depowered god. Me and flabort can kill it easily.So, just to make sure I've got this right: you killed a man to steal artifacts of great power, came to a font of magical power (the leyline) which you claim also has ties to the Cult, and you plan to use what I can only assume is unstable blood magic to open a portal to the realm of a sleeping god. And once this is done, you plan to kill it somehow? With flabort's help, I believe you said: but I imagine the sage as a weak old man with no magic powers. How's that gonna work?IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.They were extremely powerful.
I'm torn because lynching you would be an okay short-term play but could very well leave us going into D3 still groping around in the dark.
Post by: zombie urist on June 23, 2014, 01:51:27 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 23, 2014, 02:47:22 am
NQT I'm basically 100% sure is SK or at least anti-town. I'm not prioritizing SK over cult because no one's given me convincing evidence that a cult exists. The only evidence is "no NK" which could be explained by so many other factors.This is a Supernatural game with no kill on the first night and you're not concerned about a cult? Essentially what you're saying is that there's a necromancer/ghoul who was messing with bodies last night while the scum team had their kill protected against. Is there any other possibility other than cult?
Flabort
There are probably better targets? If you think ZU is the best target to lynch, go ahead, but I'm keeping my Toaster vote, because I don't believe that ZU is scum. It seems... my brain doesn't process it right, but it seems illogical. It could happen, but I'm not seeing it here.Expand this point. If you want to convince anyone of anything you've got to unpack your thoughts a bit more.
Hapah
Do you really think a flailing 3rd party is the best target in a potential scum game?
Refutal of ZU's Case
But to summarize lots of IIOAGiving any kind of information appears to be too much information by ZU's standards.
Even his analysis post was a summaryIt's a funny thing to call someone's analysis inadequate and use this as grounds for suspicion when they're one of the few people doing any kind of analysis at all.
no follow up on questionsNot true: I haven't followed up on every answer because it hasn't been fruitful to do this when I've asked questions of 12 other players (11 now). Still, I've followed up on every player throughout the game, something that you'd be hard pressed to say of anyone else.
super defensiveDefending oneself isn't a scumtell, especially when it's accompanied by rigorous attacks on others.
contradicted himself day 1This is a lie. I've explained why this is a lie and if you don't want to understand that, then you're just compounding lies on lies.
didn't deny being an sk when accusedInitially I wasn't directly accused of being an SK so there was nothing to deny. This is an absurd argument.
stated another sk was unlikely but then said a necromancer was possible (487),Yes, I didn't know about the necromancer until it was pointed out and I reread the part in the Supernatural game that had one in. When learning new information I revised my opinion.
going after inactives late in the dayForcing players into action is pro-town.
obviously slanted language (why do you love zu so much)One example, which was perhaps unnecessary but it seemed striking that Sheep had consistently leaped to your defence.
Post by: Ottofar on June 23, 2014, 09:20:50 am
Extend.
Post by: Hapah on June 23, 2014, 09:39:30 am
And how would a Knight fakeclaim compare to a Sexton fakeclaim?Quote from: Mewhat do you think the best fake-claim for a Necromancer or Ghoul would beKnight I suppose. You wouldn't have to claim actions. I already gave my reasons in nqt in an earlier post. But to summarize lots of IIOA, even his analysis post was a summary, no follow up on questions, super defensive, contradicted himself day 1, didn't deny being an sk when accused, stated another sk was unlikely but then said a necromancer was possible (487), going after inactives late in the day, obviously slanted language (why do you love zu so much)
Quote from: NQT
HapahI don't think it's great, but lemme ask you a question. If anybody else - anybody else - had been acting the way he's been acting, do you think they'd get off for free like he has? With the fishy smelling claim and the blatant vote-under-pressure after someone (you?) called him on it. The fact that he matches the sage's info well enough is just gravy. I understand cutting the new guys some slack, but dang.
Do you really think a flailing 3rd party is the best target in a potential scum game?
Will read your stuff about ZU later.
Post by: Persus13 on June 23, 2014, 09:52:39 am
Post by: Persus13 on June 23, 2014, 09:54:01 am
I'll post more later today, but I'm sticking to flabort for now, for saying odd things.
Post by: Toaster on June 23, 2014, 10:29:37 am
NQT:
ToastImportant: I define "scum" as "anti-town" instead of "Mafia team."OK. I'm town though and have never claimed otherwise. On what basis do you make your attack? You've never denied being a necromancer or ghoul, should I vote you for that?
I think the basis is quite clear; you were asked twice if you were third party and both times did not respond. That's a huge attention-grabber for me.
I didn't say I wasn't because no one asked me. (Since you will) No, I am not third party. No, I am not scum. Yes, I am town.
No, most players are moderately engaged and some players are only lightly engaged. It's not just the reads I look at, but also (mostly) the cases people actually press.I'm not basing my scum reads primarily on player's reads: those reads just present starting points for cases and a judge of player engagement which is the strongest town tell.So are most played non-engaged? How does that affect your methodology?
Alrighty, but your definition of engagement isn't coming across well.
Unvote NQT. I still don't trust you a bit and wouldn't lament your demise a bit, but there's better targets. That said...
ZUNQT I'm basically 100% sure is SK or at least anti-town. I'm not prioritizing SK over cult because no one's given me convincing evidence that a cult exists. The only evidence is "no NK" which could be explained by so many other factors.This is a Supernatural game with no kill on the first night and you're not concerned about a cult? Essentially what you're saying is that there's a necromancer/ghoul who was messing with bodies last night while the scum team had their kill protected against. Is there any other possibility other than cult?
I don't see how the underlined bit is relevant to what you're saying at all.
TheWetSheep is doing everything he can to avoid being in the limelight and not commit; the kind of behavior I expect from a cult leader.
Toony:
@Toaster:Toony: So where's the Toony Tunnel on ZU?Hmmm?
Your world-famous tunnel attack you unleash on people. I have yet to see anything like that level of commitment out of you this game. What's going on?
Spoiler: Getting OOC (click to show/hide)
Hapah:
Anyone who has been in Supernaturals before or read the previous ones: Have there ever been instances of people with multiple roles? Not like a Cult Sexton (since I think Cult is just an alignment thing and not an ability thing in and of itself), but something like a Sexton-Sage or similar.
No. You're also correct about the alignment being just alignment and not an ability- we've had Cult Sextons, Vampire Warlocks, and Werewolf Priests, as well as town versions of all three.
Flabort:
Meph(+Toaster) Since it shows who edited a post last, could Meph spoiler Toaster's big jarring image? It clashes horribly with the dark background.
I probably should have shrunk that a bit more; sorry about that.
Toaster Why do specifically suspect the four people you do? Have any of your other reads changed since last time you posted them?
Toaster, Jim What about NQT and Persus justifies your votes?
Sheep I covered in my last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394550#msg5394550), plus the bit above where I vote him. Toony is also above; basically, he's being quiet and thoughtful for a player who is typically loud and in-your-face. You I also covered in my last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394550#msg5394550). NQT is wholly visible above- I could see him either as SK or at least part of a conversion-cult.
TheWetSheep, Hapah, ZU, Persus, IG Is it crazy that I suspect Toaster and Jim of being a scum team together? Is my case against either of them stupid or unconvincing? What are your feelings on Jim? On Toaster?
It's worth pointing out that Jim and I are best Mafia e-bros, and we always treat each other like that.
Ottofar and Persus:
Flabort, rolefishing, buddying and lampshading. Just migrained, will post a real post in the evening.
Extend.
Extend.
I'll post more later today, but I'm sticking to flabort for now, for saying odd things.
You both damn well better use the extend time.
I hate to say anything pro-IG, but it occurs to me that we have a known dead serial killer, an almost-certain living one, a likely conversion-cult, and whatever IG is. What are the odds that we have four anti-town factions? A bit low, I'd say. IG's not a friend, but he may indeed just be an annoyance rather than a threat.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 23, 2014, 10:47:22 am
TheWetSheep: Toaster
flabort: Ottofar, Persus13
Imperial Guardsman: Hapah
Jim Groovester: TheWetSheep
notquitethere: zombie urist
Persus13: Jim Groovester
Toaster: flabort
zombie urist: Imperial Guardsman, Jack A.T., notquitethere, ToonyMan
Day has been extended to ~4pm Pacific Tuesday
Post by: notquitethere on June 23, 2014, 11:06:36 am
I think the basis is quite clear; you were asked twice if you were third party and both times did not respond. That's a huge attention-grabber for me.Sorry what are you even talking about? Point out where I didn't respond to someone asking me if I was a 3rd party.
I was outlining the only position ZU had appeared to allow himself. He was saying both that there's a serial killer AND there might not be a cult. To explain the lack of night kills, the serial killer must have been just messing with bodies last night and the scum must have been blocked. Is there another possibility? Essentially, ZU is saying that this very specific scenario is much more likely than there being a cult.This is a Supernatural game with no kill on the first night and you're not concerned about a cult? Essentially what you're saying is that there's a necromancer/ghoul who was messing with bodies last night while the scum team had their kill protected against. Is there any other possibility other than cult?I don't see how the underlined bit is relevant to what you're saying at all.
TheWetSheep is doing everything he can to avoid being in the limelight and not commit; the kind of behavior I expect from a cult leader.I was about to point out that Sheep has pressed more unique cases in the game than you, but looking at them, they're all pretty weak.
I hate to say anything pro-IG, but it occurs to me that we have a known dead serial killer, an almost-certain living one, a likely conversion-cult, and whatever IG is. What are the odds that we have four anti-town factions? A bit low, I'd say. IG's not a friend, but he may indeed just be an annoyance rather than a threat.Something we agree on here.
Sheep: Do you reeeeaaally think Jim is the best target? If you had to swap to one of the lynch leads, who'd it be?
Now the day's been extended, best make some use out of it. Everyone, if you haven't done this already, please give your Day 2 reads.
(I'm at work right now, but will reread the day and give my opinion on each player as soon as I can.)
Post by: zombie urist on June 23, 2014, 11:35:38 am
ZUyes.NQT I'm basically 100% sure is SK or at least anti-town. I'm not prioritizing SK over cult because no one's given me convincing evidence that a cult exists. The only evidence is "no NK" which could be explained by so many other factors.This is a Supernatural game with no kill on the first night and you're not concerned about a cult? Essentially what you're saying is that there's a necromancer/ghoul who was messing with bodies last night while the scum team had their kill protected against. Is there any other possibility other than cult?
Hapah: knight is better bc I think he shows up as killer to fortune tellers
Post by: flabort on June 23, 2014, 11:43:28 am
Post by: Toaster on June 23, 2014, 12:01:48 pm
ToasterI think the basis is quite clear; you were asked twice if you were third party and both times did not respond. That's a huge attention-grabber for me.Sorry what are you even talking about? Point out where I didn't respond to someone asking me if I was a 3rd party.
Okay, miswording on my part- I should have said you didn't answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389172#msg5389172) the question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392437#msg5392437).
(On further study, I'll acknowledge that the first wasn't a direct "Are you a third party" question and the second wasn't a question, but in neither case did you deny that you messed with the body/were a third party.)
I was outlining the only position ZU had appeared to allow himself. He was saying both that there's a serial killer AND there might not be a cult. To explain the lack of night kills, the serial killer must have been just messing with bodies last night and the scum must have been blocked. Is there another possibility? Essentially, ZU is saying that this very specific scenario is much more likely than there being a cult.This is a Supernatural game with no kill on the first night and you're not concerned about a cult? Essentially what you're saying is that there's a necromancer/ghoul who was messing with bodies last night while the scum team had their kill protected against. Is there any other possibility other than cult?I don't see how the underlined bit is relevant to what you're saying at all.
Again, considering that the two known SK options are ghoul (can eat a corpse to supercharge next kill) and necromancer (HAS to steal a body to be able to kill), I don't see how that affects his case in any meaningful way. Calling it a "very specific scenario" is a big stretch since the SK part is essentially a wash.
Now the day's been extended, best make some use out of it. Everyone, if you haven't done this already, please give your Day 2 reads.
I'll get to that.
Also, I owe Jack a response:
Toaster: Thanks for the answer, though that wasn't exactly what I meant by the question. (basically, the intent was to ask whether you thought NQT was one of the SK types you referred to or not)
Is NQT more likely an SK, or main scumteam member? Is there anyone you suspect more of being on the main scumteam, or is NQT your top suspect for both SK and main scum?
Sheep's edged up to my top suspect outright. NQT in particular I'd say is more likely third party than main scum, but he's still a decent contender for either. I don't have any particular tells I've seen that say "this person is main scum" or "this person is a Cult Leader" more than what I've levelled against Sheep. I wanted to wait because as of the post I asked you to wait, Sheep had edged ahead; NQT remained the vote for pressure purposes.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 23, 2014, 12:16:34 pm
Jim:
I admit that it's partly about appearances. I don't want to be lynched, because it'll hurt my team and make me feel worse about myself. I'm pretty sure everyone has this to a degree.Why are you softballing?
There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
That's exactly my problem with what you said. You want people to visibly see you pressing cases. It's not about scumhunting for you, it's about appearances, and that's scummy as hell.
Quote
I called you scummy for doing something I thought was scummy. How is this softballing?You didn't press hard and weren't aggressive.
Quote
1. Yes, this is true. But what makes you think I know there is a cult for certain? I do not know for certain, but it's not like thinking there is a cult when there's no N1 kill is an uncommon deduction. Why don't you take a look at all the people who made the same deduction?
Lynching SKs is pretty usually a good thing, but when there's a cult about it, having some firepower pointed in their direction is handy even if that same firepower is also pointed in ours. It probably would have worked out well, at least for a little bit, since Jiokuy was apparently willing to pretend to vig for a while.
Quote
I disagree entirely with your brazen rolefishing, but I have considered mass claiming as an option in fighting a cult.
Quote
Claiming early when there's a cult also lets the cult cherry-pick their targets, and then from there on out the usefulness of a mass claim diminishes since claims can no longer be trusted.No conditionals in any of these statements.
Quote
2. Yes, arguably true. But that isn't a reason to vote for me. I guess it's convenient to cover your bases by saying 'if he wasn't already on the cult team then he certainly is now' but that's lazy reasoning. If I'm a convert then I'm not the person you really need to be lynching, so you should probably nail down your stance on whether I'm a convert or whether I was on the original team.If there was a cult, and a person who was almost certainly scum but not the leader, would you lynch them?
Quote
These reasons are bad. Why did you bother asking me anything if you were just going to ignore what I had to say? I explained my reasoning for thinking there was a cult and you ignored it and went 'derp herp he's on the cult that's why he knows there's a cult.'That was my reason for voting you. You've noticed my lack of reads? I'm trying to do something about it. Unvote
Toaster:
So you didn't feel the need to use your vote as a lynch vote? Noted.I didn't have anybody I felt certain enough to put a lynch vote on.
Quote
I just read through that section of the thread twice and couldn't find what you're talking about. Could you link it?Here are your posts since I joined with game analysis/read compilation, answers, useless stuff and clarifications removed:
I note you trimmed out the part where he actually took everyone's reads and analyzed them. I agree that this wasn't worth a ton, but it wasn't useless. Why do I get the feeling you're cherry-picking his posts to make him look bad?
Quote
If you had nothing to go on would you try desperately to put pressure somewhere?There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
Is it because you're coming up with content entirely to look busy and involved? I think it is.
Jack:
Quote
I love how you consider the post where NQT says he suspects you to be one of those and cut it as non-content. Trying to imply that his suspicion of you is useless, are you? Justify that cut.You mean this one?
Only two questions there, one is clarification, the other is pretty useless.I see, so they're exactly as town as they are scummy to you then...? Initially I thought not being able to express reads might be a scum tell but I went and double checked my grid of reads for The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, and Deathsword, the town patsy, was the worst at forming reads by a long stretch. Are you a patsy?Toaster, Sheep, Ottofar, what do you think about the players you didn't mention?Null. That's why I didn't mention them.
Or do you mean this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389644#msg5389644)? It came after the post where I said he was hiding under his content, so it doesn't apply.
NQT:
SheepYour content indicates nothing about your alignment(you've done stuff like this as both scum and town in the past). Removing that content leaves very little, so it's difficult to tell your alignment. It looks intentional, because you're putting more effort "helpful content".How do you parse "Too Townie" from "he's hiding under a bunch of content that could be done by scum as well as town"?You never adequately explained exactly how I was hiding under helpful content.I think I got everything. The first post is OK, making a case on Jiokuy. The second one is a bit more at Jiokuy and a softball at IG. The third is a bunch of questions without pressure or substance behind them. The fourth doesn't really contain any pressure either - it's mostly response. So yeah, there's not much there.I'm sorry my performance disappoints you. Is there a case here?
Quote
This quote was the third time I asked you the question before you gave an adequate response. You made no attempt to give me details, even though how he was playing had changed away from what you had said was scummy in the first place.Am I blowing off your question? I think ZU is suspicious, until we hang someone who's genuinely scum then it's hard to get a solid read on anyone.Sheep, yeah I suspect [ZU] a small amount less but I always do when someone makes a conscious effort to up their game.Blowing off my question like this comes off as not caring much about the actual substance of your case, but keeping it as a reserve to go after.
Quote
What caused the change, and why are you still voting him? Can there be a scum sexton?I've since come back round to thinking he's probably telling the truth, but you'll note in the post you linked to I was somewhat sceptical about his account.QuoteAnd now you're concerned his dubious Sexton claim be taken seriously. I want to hear his clarifications before I take this claim with more than a pinch of salt. We've killed one murderous third party and there's been no night kills so a ghoul is highly improbably. No one's been resurrected, so a town priest raising Jiokuy is out the question, so what else could have moved the body? The only explanation I can think of is if a scum priest raised Jiokuy and the resurrection failed, destroying the body and any kind of scum team can do that.I'm not saying it should be taken as definite truth, but should at least be considered. And you didn't say anything about disbelieving it when you addressed him about it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389172#msg5389172)
Flabort:
TWS: Same question. What can you say about what I've said about Toaster and Jim?Toaster: I don't have time to read all those posts you've linked. Nothing looks too damning there. Why does NQT's validation of your case matter so much?
Jim: I think he was justified in not answering RVS questions, since conversation was already going by then. Middle point is OK, but not too suspicious. The point about rudeness is irrelevant.
"Night1: I went stargazing. A wandering constellation (known, ironically, as "Viliir, The Wanderer") has intersected another constellation (Known as the Mirror), forming another (Called the Death's Head). I also felt chills and an evil crackling. Even after I heated the fire up. Apparently, at this time, evil magic is at it's most potent. This is a vile omen indeed."At this time meaning Night 1? Maybe a N1-only convert or something?
PPE:Toaster:
TheWetSheep is doing everything he can to avoid being in the limelight and not commit; the kind of behavior I expect from a cult leader.You mean like not posting on a weekend?
Post by: flabort on June 23, 2014, 01:22:55 pm
Jim Groovester Joins in fairly late, is rude (which he claims is not a scum tell), abbrassive, and noncooperative (all the same thing). Buddies Toaster. Day 1 scum lean, neutral ish. Another slow start to day 2, when he participates again he seems less abrassive, but still somewhat. Still scummy but more neutral.
ToonyMan Seems somewhat active. Much like Jack, his posts are confident. Most replies are shorter, though, or questions to questions. Day 1 neutral. Busy on day 2, but more content in posts. Maybe town.
Persus13 Seems active enough. Barely. Bursts of activity. Day 1 slight town lean. Accused of inactivity day 2, but manages to get responses up. Then gets addicted to Town of Salem and starts immitating IG. Neutral.
NotQuiteThere Seems active enough. In the same boat as ToonyMan, but more frequent posting, and slightly more content overall. Town lean day 1, although clumsy. Less clumsy and more competent day 2. Probably town.
Hapah Used to be Tiruin, who was innactive. Current activity seems fine. No lean day 1. Short but detailed posts. Infrequent activity. Neutral, maybe slight town lean.
Toaster Seems pretty active. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5363418#msg5363418) is an early town lean post. I don't find another until here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5381173#msg5381173). Otherwise seems to have a pretty weak day game, mostly finding information from previous games or calling IG lazy. See my previous posts. Day 1 scum lean, day 2 scum. Suspects Sheep and NQT, manages large posts, but is still the same person.
Zombie Urist Low activity, at least before. Null lean day 1. Absolutely tore apart her suspects day 2 with consecutive posts. Still low activity. Neutral.
TheWetSheep Used to be 4mask. I'm fairly confident 4mask was town, so TWS is probably town. The possibility of a cult, however, requires my reread. Big posts, a bit survivalist, infrequent posts (explains why they're so big), but not exactly overtly scummy. Hostile towards suspects, yes, but not scummy. Neutral.
Ottofar Doesn't seem very active, but isn't innactive. Confusing early day 1 play. Mid day 1 settles into a more standard game. Suspected IG of being 3rd Party before IG's claim. Mild town lean day 1. Far more absent day 2.
Imperial Guardsman Very active, even though his posts are low in content individually.
Likely not lying about his role and alignment, though the possibility still remains open. Third Party claim, and a town ally as long as I'm alive. Something else if I die, vig immediately if I die. Some of his play comes from reading EpicMafia, may still be influenced by it.
Post by: notquitethere on June 23, 2014, 02:26:58 pm
Ugh, it's always like pulling teeth with you. The plausible possibilities are: Cult OR Necromancer+Scum who were protected against. What is the mysterious 3rd possibility that you're contemplating? You're hardly the paragon of helpfulness here and frankly you're letting yourself get lynched by pursuing such a blatantly empty case.ZUyes.NQT I'm basically 100% sure is SK or at least anti-town. I'm not prioritizing SK over cult because no one's given me convincing evidence that a cult exists. The only evidence is "no NK" which could be explained by so many other factors.This is a Supernatural game with no kill on the first night and you're not concerned about a cult? Essentially what you're saying is that there's a necromancer/ghoul who was messing with bodies last night while the scum team had their kill protected against. Is there any other possibility other than cult?
Hapah
I don't think it's great, but lemme ask you a question. If anybody else - anybody else - had been acting the way he's been acting, do you think they'd get off for free like he has? With the fishy smelling claim and the blatant vote-under-pressure after someone (you?) called him on it. The fact that he matches the sage's info well enough is just gravy. I understand cutting the new guys some slack, but dang.He's all over the place and making enemies like it's going out of fashion and you know who doesn't typically act like that? Scum.
Toaster
Again, considering that the two known SK options are ghoul (can eat a corpse to supercharge next kill) and necromancer (HAS to steal a body to be able to kill), I don't see how that affects his case in any meaningful way. Calling it a "very specific scenario" is a big stretch since the SK part is essentially a wash.Not that this is an overly crucial point I need to convince you on, but I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. I'm saying his combo (the logical basis of his vote) has to be 2nd SK + No Cult + Mafia Were blocked/protected against last night. He seems to think that specific scenario is more likely than there being a cult, a possibility he seems conspicuously keen not to entertain. Am I being clear now?
Sheep
It looks intentional, because you're putting more effort "helpful content".It's more that my way of scum hunting needs vote compilations and tables of reads, and so helpfully sharing the findings is easy to do, as I was going to create that content anyway.
What caused the change, and why are you still voting him? Can there be a scum sexton?Read the lists of roles in the old games already. There has been a scum sexton in the past, scum can have any role. I'm voting for him because he's still behaving like scum, albeit in a slightly different way than before. He has one case that he feels he has to stick to no matter how baseless it is. He doesn't address my counterpoints (how can he?). Typical scumplay. I find it interesting that you keep tacitly defending him. Why don't you think ZU is scum?
Flabort
Do you feel your reads have addressed this question?
There are probably better targets? If you think ZU is the best target to lynch, go ahead, but I'm keeping my Toaster vote, because I don't believe that ZU is scum. It seems... my brain doesn't process it right, but it seems illogical. It could happen, but I'm not seeing it here.Expand this point. If you want to convince anyone of anything you've got to unpack your thoughts a bit more.
Post by: flabort on June 23, 2014, 02:34:58 pm
Even if ZU isn't the most town player, there are still players, such as Toaster, Jim, Toony, You, and maybe Persus, that are better targets for the lynch in my opinion.
ZU seems primarily safe. It doesn't make sense to me that someone who could form strong cases like that could be scum right now.
Post by: zombie urist on June 23, 2014, 02:36:46 pm
There's also probably either mafia or cult. I'm not convinced its cult.
To be sure I think its one of the following
1. Sk+mafia (kill blocked, sk didn't kill)
2. Sk+cult
Why don't you think it can be a ghoul?
Post by: notquitethere on June 23, 2014, 02:44:28 pm
Not very well, but yes. I think that my reads provide a number of better targets than ZU.If you could explain what's so solid about ZU's current case that'd be great because ZU certainly isn't!
Even if ZU isn't the most town player, there are still players, such as Toaster, Jim, Toony, You, and maybe Persus, that are better targets for the lynch in my opinion.
ZU seems primarily safe. It doesn't make sense to me that someone who could form strong cases like that could be scum right now.
ZU
??? I'm pretty sure there's another SK. (Necro or ghoul)I think it's unlikely, but sure, there could be a ghoul. So you've just outlined the same two damned possibilities I did. If you think that there might be a cult, then why are you pursuing a case against someone you claim to think might be a serial killer? Also, what is it about me that makes me more likely to be a serial killer? Your case has zero substance. It literally amounts to "there might be a serial killer, I voted you previously so you're a serial killer". A town ZU wouldn't be so idiotic!
There's also probably either mafia or cult. I'm not convinced its cult.
To be sure I think its one of the following
1. Sk+mafia (kill blocked, sk didn't kill)
2. Sk+cult
Why don't you think it can be a ghoul?
Post by: zombie urist on June 23, 2014, 02:48:45 pm
1 cult
2 sk + mafia
I think the possibility of a cult is significantly lower than that of mafia.
Post by: notquitethere on June 23, 2014, 03:05:52 pm
On what grounds do you think the possibility of a cult is lower than that of a mafia? Where are you pulling this calculation from?
Post by: zombie urist on June 23, 2014, 04:06:58 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 23, 2014, 05:57:14 pm
I'm torn because lynching you would be an okay short-term play but could very well leave us going into D3 still groping around in the dark.
And who would you lynch as a longer-term, more productive alternative, and why aren't you voting them?
I don't disagree but I think the assumption that there is a cult is wrong. Basing this on games on the sub forum. also I would like to note that converts have been due powered through time ie last games charasnatic cultist had a 1 shot convert
That was a hybrid team. As I recall they had the one-shot conversion along with the traditional night kill.
There are teams that are full-blown cults, i.e., the Vampires in Supernatural 3 and 4.
I admit that it's partly about appearances. I don't want to be lynched, because it'll hurt my team and make me feel worse about myself. I'm pretty sure everyone has this to a degree.
I like how you fail to mention which team.
Getting lynched as scum is bad for your team too.
No conditionals in any of these statements.
There's a difference between thinking it's the most likely possibility and knowing for certain.
If there was a cult, and a person who was almost certainly scum but not the leader, would you lynch them?
Your evasion of the question is noted.
No, I wouldn't, because not lynching the Cult Leader doesn't solve the problem.
That was my reason for voting you. You've noticed my lack of reads? I'm trying to do something about it. Unvote
This is exactly what Jiokuy did, down even to the target. You know how he flipped, right?
Why should I think of you any differently?
I look forward to the post where you vote somebody you suspect instead of for pressure.
Of course, I don't entirely believe you that your vote on me was for pressure.
Reads blah blah whatever
Jack A.T. - Probably townish. Hasn't seemed as active lately but it's the weekend.
Jim Groovester - Town. Also smart and attractive.
ToonyMan - Sorta townish maybe? Could probably stand to be more aggressive.
flabort - Has a really weak game. Despite this I'm leaning town.
Persus13 - I stand by my vote that his vote on IG during D1 was a lazy scum move. Makes decent enough posts when he actually posts. Hasn't posted recently but it's also the weekend. Slight scummyish.
notquitethere - I don't see the arguments about him being a third party SK. Lean town.
Hapah - Has yet to wow me with his reads and scumhunting yet. Voted IG because of external pressure, it seemed. No real read one way or the other.
Toaster - I couldn't tell you what's changed about his play but I think he was converted. Otherwise it's the same usual Toaster.
zombie urist - I don't understand why he's prioritizing third parties over the scum team. I also don't buy his arguments against NQT. Scummyish.
TheWetSheep - Low activity, bad vote, later claimed it was a pressure vote to get reads. Jiokuy did the same thing. Scummyish.
Ottofar - LURK LURK LURK LURK LURK LURK and then some more LURK LURK LURK LURK LURK. Voted flabort and ran. Scummyish.
Jiokuy - DEAD
Imperial Guardsman - Claimed third party. Probably third party.
Post by: Jack A T on June 23, 2014, 07:12:07 pm
Reads:
*Jim Groovester: Lucky enough to get into the game after the worst of Day 1. Came in with a competent post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5371011#msg5371011) and took a reasonable shot at flabort. Early anger is justified. Proceeded to tear Jiokuy apart (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5379956#msg5379956), placing his final Day 1 vote. Reasons were initially that Jiokuy was refusing to answer questions while doing no more than pushing a terrible case against Jim.
Day 2, Jim voted for Persus (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5391033#msg5391033) based on a mix of Persus's old IG vote being poor and Persus's generally bland day game. Neither side has done much regarding that vote. Jim has asked Persus one question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394120#msg5394120) since the vote, but has done nothing more to strengthen the case, and his pushing of the case has consisted of the occasional offhand mention. Even in Day 1, Jim's discussion of Persus stopped when Jim started attacking Jiokuy.
In the middle of my writing of this post, Jim posted a new reads post, placing several people as scummier than Persus13 ("scummyish" instead of "slight scummyish"). Despite that, his vote is still on Persus.
Conclusion: Otherwise fine play is hampered by a troubling lack of effort in his current vote case, which does not seem to be on his top suspect. Slight scum read pending responses to my new questions.
*ToonyMan: Is activeish when he can be, it seems. Took a shot at 4maskwolf (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5364868#msg5364868) early on, but this got nowhere. After that, he poked at zombie urist. Vote has been on ZU since then, but he's been pushing weakly. He is, however, at least continuously pushing and trying to strengthen his vote.
Conclusion: Huh. Slight town read, but he's not the most helpful player.
*flabort: Day 1, he went from being controlled by his scumometer to just being confused. Day 2, he became confused and rolefishy, and also confused and survival-focused. Based vote targets on how he would look, though he eventually came to understand that that was a bad idea. Eventually, he figured out that evidence is the best way to convince people of the scumminess of others. He's not doing all that well at that, but he's trying. Despite the changing playstyle, he's been consistent about targets: his top suspect has been Toaster since his late scumometer days, and he's held his position on Jim since post 305[/b]. Has been defending zombie urist lately. Basis: [url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5403193#msg5403193]ZU forms strong cases (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370192#msg5370192) (...what?) and there are better targets to lynch than ZU.
Conclusion: While his behaviour has been poor, that seems to be primarily due to ineptitude. I am troubled by his defense of ZU, but flabort seems to have generally been acting with the intent to help town. Town lean.
*Persus13: Bland play. Did some good work pressuring Guardsman at the start of the game, long before IG's claim. That's probably Persus's best play this whole game. He later took mild shots (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5367824#msg5367824) at Jiokuy and flabort, pushed a dubious case against IG (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368777#msg5368777), and took another mild shot at Jiokuy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380705#msg5380705). He did try to talk to most people, and actively questioned people, at least.
Day 2, he's still trying to undermine Guardsman's claim, but is focused on flabort. Activity is low. More content has been promised. Doesn't really seem to have a case yet. I am troubled by a possible bit of buddying towards me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5391754#msg5391754).
Conclusion: Bland background player, who has not really pushed much in the way of cases. Mild scum read.
*notquitethere: Likely breadcrumbed his role in his first post ("What's hiding underneath the hood?"/"Battle bind a pact man?"), which is normal for him.
Not really much to say here that I haven't already said. I will say, though, that I don't think he's cult leader. Too attention-grabbing.
Conclusion: Wary neutral read, but probably not cult leader.
*Tiruin/Hapah: Tiruin, who is usually quite careful with her vote, made a mid-Day 1 Toaster vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368344#msg5368344) based purely on a disagreement over how survivors act. An odd move for anyone, and quite an odd move for Tiruin. She later voted for IG based on his claim. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370044#msg5370044) Her activity, while high in quantity of posts, was primarily during the high-speed parts of day 1. Mostly, she was just getting what she could in while awaiting a replacement. Nothing wrong there except a troubling Toaster vote.
Hapah... is sort of here. A bit. Understandably, he had a bit of trouble pulling reads together immediately. Less understandably, he eventually decided to vote for IG for some reason (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5401515#msg5401515) several days after replacing in. Apparently, IG's a useless hypocrite and his claim is fishy. The attack is vague and key points are left completely unexplained. Hapah's also showing quite a bit of nervousness about actually lynching Guardsman. Troubling, especially this close to the end of the day.
Conclusion: Tiruin wasn't acting quite right, and Hapah's not doing his job. Low-moderate scum read.
*Toaster: Consistently active, and has a strong day game. Pushed a solid case on NQT and then a shot at ToonyMan Day 1, while questioning everyone else as well. Has switched away from Toony since then, but continues a push against NQT. His current vote is on TheWetSheep, and it's not an unreasonable vote.
Conclusion: Mild town read.
*zombie urist: It's serial killer hunting time! YAY! By the way, there's no cult and focusing on SKs over fighting scum is fine with no cult! YAY!
I've said a lot already about ZU, and my reread doesn't change much. I will say, recently, he's gone from arguing that there's not much evidence of there being a cult to arguing that we more likely than not do not have a cult. An interesting shift he's made as he's arguing more and more strongly against believing a cult is what we're dealing with.
Conclusion: Moderate scum read.
*4maskwolf/The Wet Sheep: 4maskwolf was a hyperactive and flaily mess who reacted excessively to every vote. This seems to have been in part due to a strategy that, frankly, wasn't very good. I've discussed that before. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388344#msg5388344) Also, Wolf spent much of his time in the game with no vote placed.
Now, Sheep's far more interesting. As an actual player, he's posted 7 posts. Throughout Day 1, Sheep's vote was on Ottofar. This was apparently not a lynch vote. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5389574#msg5389574) Sheep says it was just an attempt to improve reads, and that he felt it was a safe vote because Ottofar wasn't up to be lynched. So, there was nobody Sheep wanted lynched Day 1. But at least he got reads to base his Day 2 actions on, right? ...No.
His Day 2 vote was on Jim. That vote was, as it turns out, for the same reasons as his Ottofar vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5402693#msg5402693). So he claims, at least.
Add an apparent greater interest in finding "good pressure points" than finding scum and a refusal to answer at least one question of mine to his positionless voting behaviour and complete lack of suspects and we get probable scum.
Conclusion: Moderate scum lean.
*Ottofar: Apparently, he's one of the people in this game. He's not exactly showing it. Has promised content today. Has sort of been fighting flabort. Sort of. Day 1 votes on 4maskwolf, IG, Jim, and flabort were each rather weak. Says he's swamped with real life, but intends to post today.
Conclusion: Ottofar's lurky once again. Null read, but he had better give us that content.
*Imperial Guardsman: Useless. Third party. Not actively hostile, but a LYLO breaker for the scumteam. Not worth lynching, though.
Questions:
Jim Groovester: Why are you putting so little effort into your Persus13 case? Do you have any comments on Persus's second Day 1 defense against your accusations? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380705#msg5380705) Is there a reason your vote is still on him?
Regarding my activity, it wasn't so much decreased due to the weekend as it was due to my focus on setting up my BYOR.
flabort: What is it that makes zombie urist's cases strong? Quantity of points certainly isn't strength when the points end up being "Persus said he used around 8 sentences and he really used 6!" and stuff like that.
Persus13: What is your case against flabort, exactly? Please provide evidence.
Hapah: What is it about Guardsman's claim that is fishy? Do you think he is a third party? Do you have any other suspects?
TheWetSheep: Is there anybody whatsoever who you think is scummy? Is there anybody you want lynched? Are you going to do any more of these "I didn't really mean that vote, I was trying to get a read" votes? Have either of those votes actually helped you get reads?
In response to your question about my question, I meant the latter post. However, you did not answer the following question, for some reason, despite it being right after the question you did answer:
Furthermore, do you consider NQT's habit of responding to questions with more questions to be useful? If not, please explain.Answer it.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 23, 2014, 07:14:46 pm
Post by: flabort on June 23, 2014, 07:28:48 pm
Post by: flabort on June 23, 2014, 07:29:42 pm
Hi, everyone. Sorry I couldnt get on today, I have an awful stomach flu right now.Blech. Get well soon, I have someone in my family who gets nauseus quite often, and I know from watching him that stomach bugs are not fun in the slightest.
Post by: zombie urist on June 23, 2014, 07:37:21 pm
Post by: flabort on June 23, 2014, 08:08:57 pm
That's assuming that it is a converting cult, which there's a 50% chance of it being. We won't know until after we lynch someone or after tonight.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 23, 2014, 08:30:42 pm
Jim Groovester: Why are you putting so little effort into your Persus13 case? Do you have any comments on Persus's second Day 1 defense against your accusations? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5380705#msg5380705) Is there a reason your vote is still on him?
I've been considering moving my vote for a while now because there are people who are getting scummier and neither Persus13 nor anybody else is showing any signs of caring about it and Persus13 has not really done anything else I consider voteworthy either before or since, but I haven't made a decision about that yet. I am inclined to vote TheWetSheep, but Toaster is voting him, and as I mentioned in my reads I think Toaster may have been converted, so that's making me wary of the vote.
Regarding Persus13's defense, he dropped the vote after I brought up the reasons I did. I find it difficult to believe that he missed that stuff when he considered his vote, hence why I think it's a lazy scum vote, and I believe I mentioned somewhere that I found his previous answers to my queries evasive as well. This is nothing new. That he dropped the vote doesn't change what I think about him casting it in the first place.
Post by: Hapah on June 23, 2014, 09:00:09 pm
NQT
HapahWhat are you talking about? He's sitting on his hands, not making enemies.I don't think it's great, but lemme ask you a question. If anybody else - anybody else - had been acting the way he's been acting, do you think they'd get off for free like he has? With the fishy smelling claim and the blatant vote-under-pressure after someone (you?) called him on it. The fact that he matches the sage's info well enough is just gravy. I understand cutting the new guys some slack, but dang.He's all over the place and making enemies like it's going out of fashion and you know who doesn't typically act like that? Scum.
Jack
*Tiruin/Hapah: Tiruin, who is usually quite careful with her vote, made a mid-Day 1 Toaster vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368344#msg5368344) based purely on a disagreement over how survivors act. An odd move for anyone, and quite an odd move for Tiruin. She later voted for IG based on his claim. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5370044#msg5370044) Her activity, while high in quantity of posts, was primarily during the high-speed parts of day 1. Mostly, she was just getting what she could in while awaiting a replacement. Nothing wrong there except a troubling Toaster vote.I'm happy to explain anything you want, but I don't know what you're referring to in the underlined bit.
Hapah... is sort of here. A bit. Understandably, he had a bit of trouble pulling reads together immediately. Less understandably, he eventually decided to vote for IG for some reason (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5401515#msg5401515) several days after replacing in. Apparently, IG's a useless hypocrite and his claim is fishy. The attack is vague and key points are left completely unexplained. Hapah's also showing quite a bit of nervousness about actually lynching Guardsman. Troubling, especially this close to the end of the day.
Conclusion: Tiruin wasn't acting quite right, and Hapah's not doing his job. Low-moderate scum read.
Quote from: Jack
Hapah: What is it about Guardsman's claim that is fishy? Do you think he is a third party? Do you have any other suspects?Several things, probably, and yes but I'd rather focus on IG right now.
Concerning the claim, most of it is in that post of mine that you linked. I'll stick it below for your viewing pleasure.
Read my summary and think about it. I mean really read it and think about it, not just skim it and file it away. Does it sound right to you? That he steals powerful magical artifacts, heads to a leyline, uses blood magic to open some kind of hellrift to a slumbering god, and then is going to kill it with the help of a feeble old man? He hasn't explained how he's gonna kill it, he hasn't explained why he needs flabort to help him fight it. He doesn't even know that flabort would help, and flabort doesn't know a thing about it. Does it sound right? At best he's holding something back.And what's he gonna do, run over with with a Rascal? Hit it with his cane? Do you even know that he'd help you? Your claim keeps smelling worse the more I think about it.IGIts a sleeping, depowered god. Me and flabort can kill it easily.So, just to make sure I've got this right: you killed a man to steal artifacts of great power, came to a font of magical power (the leyline) which you claim also has ties to the Cult, and you plan to use what I can only assume is unstable blood magic to open a portal to the realm of a sleeping god. And once this is done, you plan to kill it somehow? With flabort's help, I believe you said: but I imagine the sage as a weak old man with no magic powers. How's that gonna work?IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.They were extremely powerful.
I don't think he could fabricate the entire thing, but I do think he's capable of altering it. Out of time more later tonight.
Post by: flabort on June 23, 2014, 09:15:52 pm
Flavorwise, I guess I don't know about the plans, or I didn't until IG claimed them. Which could translate to him talking with me in a big public square about it.
Otherwise what you say about the claimed flavors so far is correct. And they make sense. When have you read a book about a magician who was purely on the straight and narrow? Unless they live a very boring life, they tend not to walk the pure straight and narrow. So if he's done some sketchy things in his flavor, it's justified by being a magician out for the greater good.
I'm not sure I can justify flavorwise how his goal changes if I die. It would depend on what kind of goal he gets if I die.
Post by: Jack A T on June 23, 2014, 09:32:38 pm
Adjustment: Strike that vague stuff. The attack is just shit.
Look at it. You're jumping on IG for assuming that the descendant of the great warrior who fought the evil god, the descendant who is to come along and help open the portal, would help fight the god. You're explicitly depending on your imagination as an argument ("I imagine the sage as a weak old man with no magic powers"). You're explicitly assuming "unstable" blood magic. You're attacking someone who probably got 3 or 4 sentences of role flavour (as is the norm in Supernatural) for not having details on the exact method of killing the god. And you've made mistakes about IG's claim. You miss the importance of flabort's blood in opening the portal to the god (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5368451#msg5368451), and claim IG hasn't explained why flabort is necessary.
Now, please tell me who your other suspects are.
I've been considering moving my vote for a while now because there are people who are getting scummier and neither Persus13 nor anybody else is showing any signs of caring about it and Persus13 has not really done anything else I consider voteworthy either before or since, but I haven't made a decision about that yet.Jim Groovester: Do you intend to make a final decision before the end of the day?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 23, 2014, 09:37:09 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 23, 2014, 10:00:49 pm
Toaster:So you didn't feel the need to use your vote as a lynch vote? Noted.I didn't have anybody I felt certain enough to put a lynch vote on.
No lynch targets at day end? This doesn't help your case. Is anybody lynchworthy now?
QuoteI just read through that section of the thread twice and couldn't find what you're talking about. Could you link it?Here are your posts since I joined with game analysis/read compilation, answers, useless stuff and clarifications removed:
I note you trimmed out the part where he actually took everyone's reads and analyzed them. I agree that this wasn't worth a ton, but it wasn't useless. Why do I get the feeling you're cherry-picking his posts to make him look bad?
Okay. See the spoiler in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394208#msg5394208)? That's the bit where you are cherry picking. The post in mind of NQT's that you left out is this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392612#msg5392612) where he does parse the data he's been gathering. Do you not think it's worth something?
QuoteIf you had nothing to go on would you try desperately to put pressure somewhere?There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
Is it because you're coming up with content entirely to look busy and involved? I think it is.
I'd reread until I found something noteworthy, or pick someone and grill them until something shook out. I wouldn't just invent something and call it a day.
PPE:Toaster:TheWetSheep is doing everything he can to avoid being in the limelight and not commit; the kind of behavior I expect from a cult leader.You mean like not posting on a weekend?
I can grant not posting on a weekend if your weekday material is solid. It isn't, and this includes this latest post of yours.
NQT: Let me boil down the issue this way:
The plausible possibilities are: Cult OR Necromancer+Scum who were protected against.
I don't see why "Cult + Necromancer" isn't a possibility. The entire Necromancer/Ghoul issue is totally irrelevant to the nature of the main scum team, yet you seem to be insistent that it matters.
Since it's the Cool Kid thing to do now, have some reads.
Scum: (All reads vaguely in order from strongest scum to strongest town)
Sheep. I've said why several times.
NQT, for stated oddities in his actions. There's also something in my gut that tells me the work he's doing is more objective than subjective (and therefore frees him from having to come up with his own opinions and views.)
Toony, for well out of meta behavior, and his sub-standard cases.
ZU is creeping up on my scumometer, largely because he refuses to explain why he thinks NQT is third party. I won't oppose to his lynch.
Flabort... he could just be new and flailing. I don't know any more.
Neutral:
Hapah. His new player protection has run out, and I'd like to see some solid cases from him soon.
Persus, for weak activity and threatening to invoke Toaster's #1 Outdated Scumtell.
Ottofar. His effort is passable.
Town:
Jim, for a weak start that's getting better.
Jack, for his strong activity from D1.
Toaster, for his incredibly manly chin.
IG is just completely off the spectrum.
Post by: Hapah on June 24, 2014, 01:41:32 am
Quote from: Jack
You're explicitly depending on your imagination as an argument ("I imagine the sage as a weak old man with no magic powers").Flabort said he wasn't magical himself, you know. And I think characterizing the Sage as a frail man is reasonable. Who doesn't think of someone like Deckard Cain when they think Sage?
Quote from: Jack
You're explicitly assuming "unstable" blood magic.And IG explicitly stated that he needed flabort's blood, and also explicitly stated that his magic is unstable. If your magic is unstable and you need blood to use it, what else would you call it? It's also worth noting that he didn't try to correct me (though, y'know, IG. That doesn't say as much as it would for anyone else).
Quote from: Jack
You're attacking someone who probably got 3 or 4 sentences of role flavour (as is the norm in Supernatural) for not having details on the exact method of killing the god.How to kill a God doesn't exactly seem like the sort of thing you figure out along the way. And shit, he could just ask if he's actually got the role. But I'm thinking he wants to summon whatever it is instead of kill it, which is why his very authentic-sounding flavor claim keeps sounding worse the more he's required to tailor it.
Quote from: Jack
And you've made mistakes about IG's claim.What mistakes would those be?
Quote from: Jack
You miss the importance of flabort's blood in opening the portal to the god, and claim IG hasn't explained why flabort is necessary.No, I understand why he needs flabort's blood. I don't understand why he needs flabort to actually help him fight, though, and he keeps saying that the both of them will fight.
The one thing I will grant you is that I assumed too much about how much information a Sage's result delivers: I was going to say that the Sage result fits IG like a glove, but I'd like a little more data. That's easily corrected!
SuperNatural vets: Two parter! Could you give a couple of examples of Sage results in past games, and what they referred to? I don't even know which of the games contained Sages. Also, has there been a role in any previous SuperNat that matches or is similar to what IG has claimed thus far? Or is his role new/unique?
As for reads, they'll have to wait until tomorrow, but I'll take an early lunch to get them out. Probably sit down to work on it at 10:30 or so Central. The quick version is that I wouldn't support a lynch on Jack/Jim/Toaster, they all seem to be playing well enough. No opinion on Ottofar, he hasn't been around. Flabort has made a few questionable plays, but I think he's a new-ish player and has been grilled on them pretty well already. I don't quite understand the cases on ZU, but by the same token I don't understand the cases he's making either. NQT has ticked one of my personal scumtells a few times, but I haven't seen anything else to support them so I guess he's alright. TWS has made a couple of questionable plays but has already been taken to task for it, and I haven't seen much of Persus.
PPE: I almost forgot. Get well soon, IG!
Post by: flabort on June 24, 2014, 01:48:00 am
IG do you want to confirm or deny any details that Hapah's collected?
Post by: zombie urist on June 24, 2014, 01:57:52 am
Don't let Toony and Ottofar get away with being inactive. I have a feeling that Toonyman is scum. Persus probably is too. If someone got converted last night I'm pretty sure its Jack, but if Jack indeed got converted I don't think its Persus b/c its too obvious especially since Persus said Jack is a good convert target. But of course this is all WIFOM.
Refutal of ZU's Case1. Not a defense. Giving information is fine but you haven't done much with the info.But to summarize lots of IIOAGiving any kind of information appears to be too much information by ZU's standards.Even his analysis post was a summaryIt's a funny thing to call someone's analysis inadequate and use this as grounds for suspicion when they're one of the few people doing any kind of analysis at all.no follow up on questionsNot true: I haven't followed up on every answer because it hasn't been fruitful to do this when I've asked questions of 12 other players (11 now). Still, I've followed up on every player throughout the game, something that you'd be hard pressed to say of anyone else.super defensiveDefending oneself isn't a scumtell, especially when it's accompanied by rigorous attacks on others.contradicted himself day 1This is a lie. I've explained why this is a lie and if you don't want to understand that, then you're just compounding lies on lies.didn't deny being an sk when accusedInitially I wasn't directly accused of being an SK so there was nothing to deny. This is an absurd argument.stated another sk was unlikely but then said a necromancer was possible (487),Yes, I didn't know about the necromancer until it was pointed out and I reread the part in the Supernatural game that had one in. When learning new information I revised my opinion.going after inactives late in the dayForcing players into action is pro-town.obviously slanted language (why do you love zu so much)One example, which was perhaps unnecessary but it seemed striking that Sheep had consistently leaped to your defence.
2. Summary is not analysis.
3. All your posts follow this pattern. Asks questions to people. Defends. I don't really see much followup.
4. I haven't seen any rigorous attacks.
5. No you haven't. Please link to it so everyone can see it.
6. Calling an argument absurd doesn't make it go away.
7. Why is there a distinction b/w ghoul and necromancer? Both are SKs. You still never explained why you don't think ghoul is likely but necro is.
8. Not when theres so much more to go on and so close to day end. Calling yourself pro-town is scummy.
9. There was only one post where he did that. Does Flabort love me also?
Evil magic again points to generic cultists who sacrifice their victims and have a team kill and may or may not have a one-shot conversion.lol.
Post by: notquitethere on June 24, 2014, 05:15:20 am
I made a long reply explaining the argument and exactly why ZU is making arbitrary and unhelpful assumptions.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
But then he pointed out something I'd said right at the beginning of the day:
Evil magic again points to generic cultists who sacrifice their victims and have a team kill and may or may not have a one-shot conversion.
...Which I'd promptly forgotten about in our recent spat. The possibility of a hybrid team though doesn't rule out the possibility of a full-on cult team though, and while a 100% cult is possible, focusing on hunting serial killers is still ridiculous.
ZU
1. Not a defense. Giving information is fine but you haven't done much with the info.But I have done some things, and I've still done more than most. The burden is on you to say why this makes me scummier than anyone else right now.
2. Summary is not analysis.But I did give an analysis of each person's read in the end. What's your point here?
3. All your posts follow this pattern. Asks questions to people. Defends. I don't really see much followup.What am I doing right now?
4. I haven't seen any rigorous attacks.I've pointed out why your case is baseless, of COURSE you don't see the rigorous attack.
5. No you haven't. Please link to it so everyone can see it.RIGHT HERE.
Two different answers to basically the same questions.NOPE. I was talking to Toaster about me bringing up the prosepective IG lynch, and then to you about bringing up the prospective Wolf lynch, which was occurred later. I can see how you'd make this mistake though.
6. Calling an argument absurd doesn't make it go away.You have no argument. You have some unsubstantiated premises. Unfortunately, pointing this out to you doesn't seem to make you stop.
7. Why is there a distinction b/w ghoul and necromancer? Both are SKs. You still never explained why you don't think ghoul is likely but necro is.There's been a serious misunderstanding between us here. I don't think either kind of SK is particularly likely, but both are possible.
8. Not when theres so much more to go on and so close to day end. Calling yourself pro-town is scummy.If there's so much to go on, there isn't anything wrong with encouraging others to vote. Calling myself pro-town when i am pro-town has no bearing on my alignment one way or the other.
9. There was only one post where he did that. Does Flabort love me also?Sheep has now done it three times. Flabort only once I think.
Sure, I'd forgotten about that. It's a possibility, yes. Still doesn't give you a case.Evil magic again points to generic cultists who sacrifice their victims and have a team kill and may or may not have a one-shot conversion.lol.
I don't care if you respond to the above, I just want to know:
A. Why do you think I'm more likely to be a serial killer or scum than anyone else? and B. What reason do you have for not thinking a cult likely?
On the very slim chance that you are town, why are you pressing such an obviously bullshit case?
Hapah
He's joint first with me and Ottofar for voting the most different targets throughout the game: that kind of spread of targets is the kind of enemy-making that scum tend not to do.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 24, 2014, 07:03:06 am
blubSo you are accusing me of being a http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Usurper (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Usurper), pretty much?
Post by: Toaster on June 24, 2014, 08:41:53 am
SuperNatural vets: Two parter! Could you give a couple of examples of Sage results in past games, and what they referred to? I don't even know which of the games contained Sages. Also, has there been a role in any previous SuperNat that matches or is similar to what IG has claimed thus far? Or is his role new/unique?
There was one in Bastard Supernatural, but that doesn't really apply. Other than that, the only sage was in Super 2, who got some clues as to the nature of the anti-town factions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62587.msg1532494#msg1532494).
As far as IG's role, the closest thing was the Guardian Angel role of Super 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89665.msg2644008#msg2644008), which he isn't claiming.
NQT: Okay. I think there's a bit of a disconnect between what you're thinking and what you're getting on paper, but I see no need to continue this line of thought.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 24, 2014, 09:15:38 am
Then answer my questions!If I'm not pressuring him very hard, he's not trying to do anything about it very hard either. As of this post I am a-okay with a ZU lynch.That's b/c you aren't pressing very hard. ::)
@Zombie Urist:
Do you think Persus13 and NQT are both scum? Who's worse?
I guess it looks like I'm getting lynched. I probably won't have enough time to post tomorrow.Well, damn.
I still don't think there's a cult. NQT is still scum, please lynch him.Perhaps.
Don't let Toony and Ottofar get away with being inactive. I have a feeling that Toonyman is scum. Persus probably is too. If someone got converted last night I'm pretty sure its Jack, but if Jack indeed got converted I don't think its Persus b/c its too obvious especially since Persus said Jack is a good convert target. But of course this is all WIFOM.I agree that Ottofar and Persus13 are good candidates.
@Toaster:
Toony:What do you think this is, 2009?@Toaster:Your world-famous tunnel attack you unleash on people. I have yet to see anything like that level of commitment out of you this game. What's going on?Toony: So where's the Toony Tunnel on ZU?Hmmm?
@Flabort:
That's assuming that it is a converting cult, which there's a 50% chance of it being. We won't know until after we lynch someone or after tonight.Where did this percentage come from??
Post by: Toaster on June 24, 2014, 09:23:49 am
What do you think this is, 2009?
Yes. Swine flu is raging, Michael Jackson just died, and people are talking about this new little game called Minecraft.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 24, 2014, 10:57:01 am
TheWetSheep: Toaster
flabort: Ottofar, Persus13
Imperial Guardsman: Hapah
notquitethere: zombie urist
Persus13: Jim Groovester
Toaster: flabort
zombie urist: Imperial Guardsman, Jack A.T., notquitethere, ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Today
Post by: Hapah on June 24, 2014, 11:50:58 am
No, I don't think you're anything like that. How did you even come to that conclusion? What is your role even called? Surely you can claim that.blubSo you are accusing me of being a http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Usurper (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Usurper), pretty much?
How long until day end? 6 hours?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 24, 2014, 11:53:11 am
I will vote TheWetSheep. If I feel well enough to do a more detailed post I will do so, but otherwise I will let this carry me past the deadline.
euararagh my fucking ears arrrrarararaggh
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 24, 2014, 12:46:04 pm
What is your role even called?Exile Mage.
Post by: flabort on June 24, 2014, 02:00:27 pm
@Flabort:There's two options, a kill-cult or a convert cult. 1/2=0.5, which is 50%. Simple math.That's assuming that it is a converting cult, which there's a 50% chance of it being. We won't know until after we lynch someone or after tonight.Where did this percentage come from??
Hapah IG already claimed that Day 1.
Post by: Persus13 on June 24, 2014, 03:09:27 pm
There's two options, a kill-cult or a convert cult. 1/2=0.5, which is 50%. Simple math.Haven't I already yelled at you once for misusing probability? Or was it IG. There are 3 different scumteams with sub-variations on them, only 1/3 is a cult. We do not know the probability of any of these occurring except based on previous results, which is useless anyway because we don't know how many possible variables there are. We don't know it's specifically a cult yet, and anyway, probability doesn't matter because the scum team has already been chosen, so the chance of it being a convert cult is actually 0% or 100%, we just don't know which.
About to have a large post coming up.
Post by: Hapah on June 24, 2014, 03:38:31 pm
Post by: Persus13 on June 24, 2014, 04:40:36 pm
Only one scum needs to fake-claim. Last game Tiruin, the Cult Leader fakeclaimed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4776150#msg4776150) Illusionist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4776241#msg4776241) and pulled it off successfully to win the game. She provided a lot of content and fake-claimed a role that would show up the same way her real role would to a Fortune Teller. Said Fake-claim can be helped by the other scum team members and be planned out before it comes time to claim. It isn't extremely easy to pull off a fake-claim, but with a little luck and skill, it can be achieved.1) Easily? What perfect role out there can scum "Easily" fake claim? Most fake claims I've seen have been pretty touch-and-go.So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.Why early mass-claim is bad.
1. Scum can easily pull off a fake-claim (ex. Tiruin in Supernatural 6 fakeclaimed Dreamwalker? [Not sure which role specifically]), especially since only one needs to do so.
2. Scum then targets dangerous/useful power roles with their kill or convert. (For instance, if you're town, I highly doubt scum will convert or kill you because your claimed role is more useless then dangerous)
2) Assuming they have a kill or convert left. Which they won't if we - never mind. Ugh.
Toony:
@Persus13:I was well aware ZU was being lazy. That's why I called him for not elaborating or quoting. Thanks for the link.ZU:He's talking about Toaster's post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5381173#msg5381173). Which I actually think is a totally valid point. However, it's still Toaster's reasoning, not ZU's. So he's being incredibly lazy again.Ohh looking at Toasters post I noticed another smallNQT contradiction He said to Toaster he was unsure of end time which is why he asked but said to me if nothing else happened that day IG would be lynched.Elaborate and quote please.
Jim:
You should know what a trap is, given that you use them yourself.Why did you decide not to rez last night?
Why did you ask the third party reviver why he didn't revive the third party SK?
TWS does have a point. You haven't been very aggressive with The Wet Sheep on several points, with occasional low-key references to him being scummy or scum, and then you start attacking more aggressively when other people start citing him as suspicious.Why are you softballing?
There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
I called you scummy for doing something I thought was scummy. How is this softballing?
Toaster:
Why are you and Jim so passive-aggressive with TheWetSheep?There's no point in going after people for what's already been addressed, and people(NQT) are complaining about my lack of cases, so yes I want to find something.
Is it because you're coming up with content entirely to look busy and involved? I think it is.
Persus:It's the lack of case plus citing three scummy players as town despite being scummy that I thought odd. Especially with Jiokuy's flip.Flabort:Then I'm just going to go with my gut. Toaster. I can't support my case against him, but I suspect him more than I do Jim or Jiokuy. Or NQT or IG, TWS, Toony, or Zombie for that matter. My gut says Toasty is scum. My (flawed) scumometer says Jim and Toony are scum. The evidence seems to say that the scum is not who is being most scummy (NQT, Jim, Jiokuy). So I'm going with my gut in this short time.Why Toaster instead of someone else? And why do you cite NQT, Jim and Jiokuy as evidence of scummy non-scum when none of them are confirmed town, then and now? Why does your scum meter say Toony is scum?
Because he suspects me the most? Why would that be an issue? I don't understand the issues in any of this.
I don't trust IG at all and I'd to show people that I'm not a moron for doing so. What is your alternative? I'm not really the type to mess up and then pretend it was my plan all along.Good, I'm glad you noticed the SK flip. Do you plan to use your rez as soon as a town player is lynched or dies, or as soon as a role you feel important is lynched or dies?
I'm not 100% convinced I believe this was a test. Why invest time in him anyway? I'm currently busy ignoring him.
NQT:If he had denied, wouldn't people have jumped him for being over eager to deny it? I fail to see how NQT not denying a third-party accusation that was without any evidence as scummy.I'm certain at this point that NQT is at least an SK. Especially with Jiokuy's body being gone. I will also note that NQT doesn't deny doing anything to the body.I see. If Serial Killer is the best option you've come up with and we're in a game that most likely has a cult, why are you still voting me?
Very much so not pictured: you denying the accusation. So are you a Necromancer or a Ghoul?
TheWetSheep is doing everything he can to avoid being in the limelight and not commit; the kind of behavior I expect from a cult leader.Uh, what? I see a player who has had low content but is attempting to get some more. I would think this would be more true of Ottofar or Toony then TheWetSheep.
Notquitethere:
[PersusI do feel that he was earnest at his early mass claim idea, especially as he has been flailing around all game. My main reasons was for the strange stuff he said at the end of D1 and the lack of scumhunting once he realized his spreadsheet wasn't working as said above. The thing about the mass claim being used for nefarious purposes was an afterthought.Well, I'm voting him because he said some questionable things at the end of day 1 and his gut-instinct and nothing else Toaster vote. In spite of deciding his spreadsheet method is useless, he hasn't really been questioning things he finds odd, instead choosing to rolefish and call for a massclaim, which could be ascribed to him being inexperienced or him trying to get useful information for his team.Remember he is a self-identifying puzzle-solver (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136990.msg5357841#msg5357841), though of course he could use that as a shield for trying to get away with asking more than is good for town. Still, I see a certain kind of earnestness in his cries for an early mass claim. But you don't?
Hapah:
Persus:Besides this?Quote from: Persus-snip- ... and we should all talk to Tiruin (now Hapah) more.So why didn't you talk to me?
Also I took a break because I got fairly busy this weekend and Monday, so I haven't been able to talk as much as I'd like.Quote from: PersusWhen do you plan on finishing your read list.In order: when I can find the time, no, and probably Ottofar (and on that last one, before you say anything: when the pot calls the kettle black, the kettle is still black). If not him then maybe you or flabort.
Have you read through any of the previous Supernaturals?
If you had to day kill someone now, that wasn't IG, who would you pick?
I noticed you doubted IG's claim as well. Did you ever respond to this?
How's that gonna work?Its a sleeping, depowered god. Me and flabort can kill it easily.[/quote
Are you going to press a case on anyone else?
Anyone:Because we either have an SK or an SK with an unstoppable attack, both of which are incredibly dangerous.Has anyone considered the possibility we have some sort of Necromancy based scum team? Meph did say there would be new elements in this game.
Thoughts/Reads on players:
Someone asked me my case on flabort. After he clarified a few posts I had issues with from the end of D1, he seems less scummy and more like just a flailing scum hunter who is trying to find his legs, so I'm going to unvote. While I'd love to go with ZU for his lack of evidence for his third party case, the lack of people trying to defend him gives me doubts about him being scum. Right now I'm probably most suspicious of Toaster, mainly because I don't really see his case on TheWetSheep and his interactions with both TheWetSheep and NQT feels more like he's attempting to be manipulative and twisty rather then actual interacting with or scumhunting them.
From Most Town to Not so Town.
Jack AT and NQT both appear to be playing well, although NQT has been on the defensive recently.
Hapah and NQT need to post more cases, especially Hapah
Flabort and TheWetSheep are likely flailing town. IG seems flailing third-party but could be more sinister.
Toonyman and Ottofar need to post more (as do I)
Jim is being passive aggressive, which I don't like, but I don't find necessarily bad.
Toaster and ZU are the most scummy to me for reasons stated in my pick of who I would vote for.
Post by: Persus13 on June 24, 2014, 04:43:11 pm
Hapah:
I noticed you doubted IG's claim as well. Did you ever respond to this?
How's that gonna work?Its a sleeping, depowered god. Me and flabort can kill it easily.
Are you going to press a case on anyone else?
Anyone:
Because we either have an SK or an SK with an unstoppable attack, both of which are incredibly dangerous.Has anyone considered the possibility we have some sort of Necromancy based scum team? Meph did say there would be new elements in this game.
Thoughts/Reads on players:
Someone asked me my case on flabort. After he clarified a few posts I had issues with from the end of D1, he seems less scummy and more like just a flailing scum hunter who is trying to find his legs, so I'm going to unvote. While I'd love to go with ZU for his lack of evidence for his third party case, the lack of people trying to defend him gives me doubts about him being scum. Right now I'm probably most suspicious of Toaster, mainly because I don't really see his case on TheWetSheep and his interactions with both TheWetSheep and NQT feels more like he's attempting to be manipulative and twisty rather then actual interacting with or scumhunting them.
From Most Town to Not so Town.
Jack AT and NQT both appear to be playing well, although NQT has been on the defensive recently.
Hapah and NQT need to post more cases, especially Hapah
Flabort and TheWetSheep are likely flailing town. IG seems flailing third-party but could be more sinister.
Toonyman and Ottofar need to post more (as do I)
Jim is being passive aggressive, which I don't like, but I don't find necessarily bad.
Toaster and ZU are the most scummy to me for reasons stated in my pick of who I would vote for.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2014, 05:01:24 pm
Hapah is focusing too much on IG, who is almost certainly not a converter. His case relies only on picking holes in his flavour. He's also keeping his head down, not attracting much suspicion.
Flabort isn't playing great, but getting better, and seems genuine, particularly in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394885#msg5394885). Followed by this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5396509#msg5396509), which seems pretty sincere too, I'm getting a good town feel from him.
NQT has raised some flags but his series of five posts before N1 looked like he was genuine looking to benefit town there.
Jim's kindof suspicious, see below.
ZU's denial of a cult is weird. His reasoning is because of "games on this subforum", which doesn't really make much sense. Apart from that, not getting a strong read on him.
ToonyMan is really uninvolved. He parked his vote on ZU late day 1 with minimal reasoning:
Zombie Urist for not engaging in the game and being unhelpful. Have anything to say? What are your thoughts on Jack AT and Toaster?Early D2 he put it on ZU again with no more reasoning (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388860#msg5388860), and... hasn't really done anything since. No real pressure on ZU(a few softballs), or on anyone else. A lot of answering questions and asking things without applying pressure.
Ottofar also hasn't really done anything.
Jim:
So? Getting lynched as town is bad for my team too, so it's a nonpoint. I'll say it if you want: I'm town.I admit that it's partly about appearances. I don't want to be lynched, because it'll hurt my team and make me feel worse about myself. I'm pretty sure everyone has this to a degree.
I like how you fail to mention which team.
Getting lynched as scum is bad for your team too.
Quote
There was no question there.If there was a cult, and a person who was almost certainly scum but not the leader, would you lynch them?
Your evasion of the question is noted.
Quote
He flipped SK, which you specifically said you don't want to lynch.That was my reason for voting you. You've noticed my lack of reads? I'm trying to do something about it. Unvote
This is exactly what Jiokuy did, down even to the target. You know how he flipped, right?
Why should I think of you any differently?
Anyway, why should you think of me differently? Because you're smart enough to know that one occurrence doesn't make a pattern.
Quote
Of course, I don't entirely believe you that your vote on me was for pressure.You don't? You mean you think my first vote of the day, with this as the only reasoning:
Jim: Why are you so sure there's a cult?was my lynchvote? Ridiculous.
Basically, your case on me is full of crap that you should know doesn't make me scum. Day one you spent going after an easy lynch with not much of a case(it looked to be mostly based in anger).
Toonyman: Are you confident enough in your ZU vote that you're not going to try to pressure anyone else?
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 24, 2014, 05:13:23 pm
Why don't you think ZU is scum?I haven't been looking at him very hard, to be honest. Looking at how many people were attacking him I decided to pay attention to other people instead.
Jack:
TheWetSheep: Is there anybody whatsoever who you think is scummy? Is there anybody you want lynched? Are you going to do any more of these "I didn't really mean that vote, I was trying to get a read" votes? Have either of those votes actually helped you get reads?Yes. Yes. If I need to use pressure votes more, I will. Ottofar's wasn't very useful; I still don't know about him. I'm getting a better read on Jim though.
Furthermore, do you consider NQT's habit of responding to questions with more questions to be useful? If not, please explain.Right sorry. It's sometimes useful. Their usefulness can be judged the same way any other scumhunting question can be judged.
Toaster:
No lynch targets at day end? This doesn't help your case. Is anybody lynchworthy now?Toonyman, maybe Jim and Hapah.
Quote
Okay. See the spoiler in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394208#msg5394208)? That's the bit where you are cherry picking. The post in mind of NQT's that you left out is this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392612#msg5392612) where he does parse the data he's been gathering. Do you not think it's worth something?He posted that after I accused him of hiding beneath content. Yes, it's worth something.
Quote
I'd reread until I found something noteworthy, or pick someone and grill them until something shook out. I wouldn't just invent something and call it a day.And what do you think I've been doing with Jim and NQT?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 24, 2014, 06:20:32 pm
TheWetSheep: Jim Groovester, Toaster
flabort: Ottofar
Imperial Guardsman: Hapah
notquitethere: zombie urist
Toaster: flabort, Persus13
ToonyMan: TheWetSheep
zombie urist: Imperial Guardsman, Jack A.T., notquitethere, ToonyMan
As the sun sinks lower on the horizon you cast your final votes.
zombie urist has been selected. He steps forward, a grim but determined look on his face. The High Priest walks towards him, and as he did with Jiokuy he places the symbol of Justice upon his brow.
Unlike Jiokuy, though, he seems to feel no pain. Instead, he looks calm. His eyes scan each and everyone one of you for a moment, and then he speaks.
"I am no enemy of this town, my friends. I am as I have said, your simple Sexton. Be vigilant, and stop whatever horror is behind this evil! I...I only wish I could have done more.
And with that he sinks down to the ground, lifeless.
The High Priest's expression grows sad. "He was a good man. We shall all miss him. But for now we can do nothing more than redouble our efforts. Be safe this night, I hope to see all of you in the morning."
Night has fallen. Send in your actions!
Post by: Mephansteras on June 25, 2014, 03:10:13 pm
You have returned to the Temple, and look around at the faces of your fellow townsmen. Two facts immediately catch your attention.
zombie urist stands with you once again, looking a bit pained but alive and well.
Jack A.T. has not joined you.
The High Priest steps forward and into the center of the circle. "I have grave news, friends. I awoke with a terrible vision, that one of our faithful has fallen. And, to my sorrow, it has proven true. Jack A.T. was discovered dead in his home this morning, his body burned to nought but ashes and bone. We know now that he was a Wizard, using his magic to help protect us against evil. He shall be sorely missed."
"May you find the one who did this to him, and bring them to Justice!"
Day 3 has begun. It will go until ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: flabort on June 25, 2014, 03:20:12 pm
I found a molten candle at Jiokuy's grave site. The candle had charcoal imbedded in it.
According to the books I consulted, this device can be used to "rekindle [a] soul to life once again." Also, the passage relates to an unholy unlife, rather than a pure and holy life.
Otherwise, my night appeared uneventful.
IG was it you who revived ZU? We told you not to use the revive, at all. What if something went wrong?
ZU Welcome back. Tell us, what happened in the night for you?
Anyone who doesn't like IG Well, this is flavor proof that wizards can be good. Even if IG was exiled, at least there's precedent for his innocence now, right?
Toonyman, Toaster, Sheep Who do you suspect of being the Necromancer?
Post by: notquitethere on June 25, 2014, 03:24:27 pm
ZU, did anything change about you once you were revived?
IG, do you have anything to tell us?
Interesting news Flabort, I agree that most likely points to a Necromancer raising a zombie.
Post by: Jack A T on June 25, 2014, 03:25:23 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 03:25:52 pm
I revived ZU
Post by: Hapah on June 25, 2014, 03:26:59 pm
What does an incinerated corpse point to? I thought the Neccy kill flavor was people getting beat up.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 03:29:48 pm
PFWI assume its either a new flavor or the maf and the neccy hit the same person.
What does an incinerated corpse point to? I thought the Neccy kill flavor was people getting beat up.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 03:30:58 pm
Post by: Persus13 on June 25, 2014, 03:33:25 pm
Anyone who doesn't like IG Well, this is flavor proof that wizards can be good. Even if IG was exiled, at least there's precedent for his innocence now, right?No, Wizard is a completely role from IG. Read the list of possible roles in the OP. There have been plenty of Supernatural games where there have been good wizards. It's not a question of the goodness of wizards, its the question of whether or not IG is faking part of his role. I should also mention that IG didn't claim to be an exiled Wizard, he claimed he was an exiled Mage (which appears to be a general term for a magic user given the OP)
Quote from: From OP
Sorcerer - A powerful mage, the sorcerer likes to keep to himself and has the power to enforce his seclusion.I'm pretty sure there can be evil mages.
Wizard - A powerful mage, the Wizard can use his powers to help keep others safe.
Warlock - A mage who seeks knowledge from the shades of the dead
Illusionist - A mage whose mastery of light and shadow can use misdirection to help or harm.
mfw, I didnt bother to read my revive PM, apparently my revive failed but hes alive.Zombie Urist needs to die if you're telling the truth, then.
More later.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 25, 2014, 03:34:31 pm
mfw, I didnt bother to read my revive PM, apparently my revive failed but hes alive.
Failed, as in, you didn't get to make the attempt, or failed, as in, you brought back bad juju?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 25, 2014, 03:34:50 pm
I'm less confident of a conversion cult now, unless somebody coughs up his kill? No wait they wouldn't, since everybody has been calling Jack town since Day 1. Scum killed Jack.
@Flabort:
IG was it you who revived ZU? We told you not to use the revive, at all. What if something went wrong?Do you honestly think he wouldn't? Also, why is this a bad thing?
Toonyman, Toaster, Sheep Who do you suspect of being the Necromancer?Imperial Guardsman or Notquitethere.
@Imperial Guardsman:
mfw, I didnt bother to read my revive PM, apparently my revive failed but hes alive....Can you still use your revive?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 03:36:55 pm
@Imperial Guardsman:No. And to answer jims question, I bought back bad juju.mfw, I didnt bother to read my revive PM, apparently my revive failed but hes alive....Can you still use your revive?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 25, 2014, 03:39:21 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 25, 2014, 03:39:39 pm
mfw, I didnt bother to read my revive PM, apparently my revive failed but hes alive.What you're saying is an unclaimed priest resurrected ZU? Do you still have your revive left or is it spent now? Are you sure it wasn't just that your revive messed up?
Not so fast Persus. We know ZU may be good, we also know that there are scum players out there. It's absurd to lynch ZU today. Better kill all the original scum and see whether we've won and then if not we can kill ZU as back up. It's senseless to waste a lynch on him, especially in a potential cult set-up.
Toonyman my gut and my metrics say you're scum. I'm going to do a reread and see whether I feel the same way, but this:
I'm less confident of a conversion cult now, unless somebody coughs up his kill? No wait they wouldn't, since everybody has been calling Jack town since Day 1. Scum killed Jack.
Is Grade A Diversionary Scum WIFOM.
And going after the safe target, one of the only two people you've targeted at all in the whole game:
@Imperial Guardsman:
Is a monster of a scumtell.
Post by: notquitethere on June 25, 2014, 03:40:26 pm
Post by: Hapah on June 25, 2014, 03:40:59 pm
IG: So you shot off your 1-shot maybe-revive on someone that wasn't the person you need alive to win?
Post by: notquitethere on June 25, 2014, 03:44:44 pm
PFWHe's claimed several times that he can't use it on Flabort. Weren't you paying attention?
IG: So you shot off your 1-shot maybe-revive on someone that wasn't the person you need alive to win?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 03:45:42 pm
PFWOne, I specifically said It cant be used on flabort, two,
IG: So you shot off your 1-shot maybe-revive on someone that wasn't the person you need alive to win?
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110612084735/cnc/images/thumb/0/06/CNCTW_Saboteur_Cameo.png/100px-CNCTW_Saboteur_Cameo.png)
It may be salvagable.
Post by: notquitethere on June 25, 2014, 03:46:29 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on June 25, 2014, 03:47:41 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 03:53:43 pm
Cute image, but an explanation would be better.It MAY be salvagable, as in the ability may have failed entirely.
Where did you find the body IG?In a graveyard.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 25, 2014, 03:53:55 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 03:56:44 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 25, 2014, 04:02:46 pm
sudden boom and crackling at nearby house, peel off.You could have mentioned this sooner. Can you tell us anything more about the boom and crackling?
Anyone else see anything like that last night? Anyone know if wizard deaths have been known to have that sort of effect?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 25, 2014, 04:03:43 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 25, 2014, 04:06:22 pm
Post by: flabort on June 25, 2014, 04:07:54 pm
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk108/flabort/ReviveBadStuff_zps6ac41485.png)
Where you revived ZU successfully, but in order to do so without the proper reagents, the spell went wild and killed Jack, is that what you're saying? That to revive ZU, the spell needed a soul for a soul?
Give us more detail on your flavor.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 04:13:06 pm
So you're saying the revive looked more like this:I am a practitioner of Hemomancy.
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk108/flabort/ReviveBadStuff_zps6ac41485.png)
Where you revived ZU successfully, but in order to do so without the proper reagents, the spell went wild and killed Jack, is that what you're saying? That to revive ZU, the spell needed a soul for a soul?
Give us more detail on your flavor.
The magical reagents I required were a vial of the blood of a flabort ancestor, 6 purified wax candles, and an undying flame.
The god was weakened when I fought it, and I put it in what I can only assume is a coma.
I require justification for killing that guard to be free from my exile and I need to, ya know, SAVE US ALL.
Also, I don't believe I caused Jack to asplode.
Post by: zombie urist on June 25, 2014, 04:18:53 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on June 25, 2014, 04:25:38 pm
It must have been another priest then. Also, yes, I physically saw ZU.Well, that's odd. I'm the priest.
Last night I dug up ZU's body and revived him. This involved walking around him seven times, shaking water infused with the holiest incense, and then praying for his revival. Light from the moon fell down and exploded on ZU's body (in the graveyard), and right after he was breathing again and I felt a pulse. Based on the flavor it seemed completely successful. My character was smiling and the gods seemed pleased.
I then carried him back to his home, put him in his bed, and went home myself. I saw no one and nothing else.
If anything, that "boom and crackle" you saw at the nearby house (most likely ZU's own house) was you screwing up my ritual, but because you say you saw ZU's body I might as well claim the conflict. You're either half-lying or Meph is bad at writing flavor.
I can hardly trust ZU's alignment anymore either, thanks. I say we lynch you and somebody can do something with ZU tonight.
Post by: zombie urist on June 25, 2014, 04:38:42 pm
Post by: zombie urist on June 25, 2014, 04:39:49 pm
IG why did you revive me?
Post by: flabort on June 25, 2014, 04:50:53 pm
Thanks for trying, but we didn't want you to use that, not with the BAD STUFF you claimed could happen.
Toonyman You claim to have been in the graveyard last night. IG and I both also claim to have visited. Did you see anyone there besides ZU?
ZU
Hi guys reviving me was probably a bad idea I need to rethink basically everything.What did you mean by this? Is your role or alignment fundamentally different?
Post by: zombie urist on June 25, 2014, 04:53:22 pm
I then carried him back to his home, put him in his bed, and went home myself. I saw no one and nothing else.This is consistent with me waking up in my bed.
ZUNo I'm still a town sexton but I've been useless as a player the entire game.Hi guys reviving me was probably a bad idea I need to rethink basically everything.What did you mean by this? Is your role or alignment fundamentally different?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 04:54:27 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 04:55:57 pm
IG why did you revive me?I figured we could learn SOMETHING from you, and have an ally back.
Post by: notquitethere on June 25, 2014, 05:14:11 pm
I'll rectify this in the next few hoursActually I'm shattered so will look to finish this up tomorrow before I make dodgy conclusions while half asleep.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 25, 2014, 05:36:36 pm
Toony man why did you revive me?A priest only gets one revive, and if I died before I got to use it that would suck. I didn't touch Jiokuy on N1 since he was an SK.
Toonyman You claim to have been in the graveyard last night. IG and I both also claim to have visited. Did you see anyone there besides ZU?The only possibility is that I arrived after both you and IG. However, I had to dig up ZU and the body was not disturbed, this contradicts IG's claim.
Can you explain more fully what your ability is? Why were you investigating Jiokuy's grave?
I attempted to revive him in his grave, but stopped the spell and ran.Are you saying that you tried to revive him while he was still buried? No, you aren't, because you saw the body!
Post by: flabort on June 25, 2014, 05:50:37 pm
Toonyman You claim to have been in the graveyard last night. IG and I both also claim to have visited. Did you see anyone there besides ZU?The only possibility is that I arrived after both you and IG. However, I had to dig up ZU and the body was not disturbed, this contradicts IG's claim.
Can you explain more fully what your ability is? Why were you investigating Jiokuy's grave?
I receive a clue each night that tells me about the factions here. <-minimal paraphrasing
That's the sum total of my ability. I don't get to target anyone, I just receive big gobs of flavor text with maybe a word or two bolded.
Tonight the bolded word was Necromancy.
Flavor wise, I glean the answer from the stars, or delve into tomes of knowledge.
Tonight, I was "curious about the missing body of Jiokuy", and went looking. I found nothing but footprints at first, until the candle caught my eye. I took the candle home, and looked through my books (actual word used was tomes) until I found the answer I was looking for. The ash and charcoal in the candle corresponds to "a fading soul", and the charcoal apparently represents the fact that the soul can be "rekindled to life", although not as strong a metaphorical flame as it had when it was truly alive. I then close the book, say "Necromancy" to myself, and muse on the horrible fate Jiokuy's suffering. He's trapped. In his own rotting body.
I guess since we were investigating different graves, neither of you have to have seen me in your flavor.
However, this contradiction in the state of the grave when Toony arrived is intriguing.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 25, 2014, 05:58:52 pm
Imperial Guardsman: ToonyMan
ToonyMan: notquitethere
zombie urist: Persus13
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 06:09:24 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 25, 2014, 06:20:18 pm
its very likely that Meph look at at the 2-3 grave visits, and slipped up.
Not likely.
Meph, did you slip up on the night flavor?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 25, 2014, 06:26:22 pm
its very likely that Meph look at at the 2-3 grave visits, and slipped up.
Not likely.
Meph, did you slip up on the night flavor?
Not that I can see.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 25, 2014, 07:17:41 pm
Imperial Guardsman is a lying fakeclaimer then. We should probably lynch him for answers.
Considering the fact that all revives act simultaneously, its very likely that Meph look at at the 2-3 grave visits, and slipped up. I dug up the grave, attempted to revive him, and got interrupted by a boom and crackling, and then I stopped everything and ran.
Revives do not happen simultaneously. If two priests attempt to revive the same target, who gets to do the revive is randomly chosen, and the other finds an empty grave.
And since you tried to resolve your flavor inconsistency with ToonyMan by casting doubt at the moderator instead of accuse ToonyMan of lying, you're probably scum.
Imperial Guardsman, would you like to attempt another reconciliation between yours and ToonyMan's role conflict?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 07:23:17 pm
you are a liar i wont listen to you and i am the only person who is rightyeah no
I go to revive our sexton.
I clean away enough dirt to see his corpsey face.
I begin my magic, and start to see red coming to his face.
Jack blows up.
I stop doing what Im doing and run to my house.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 25, 2014, 07:27:09 pm
You and ToonyMan could not have both dug up zombie urist, like both of you claimed.
Ergo, ipso facto, concordantly, apropos, one of you is lying and it's probably you.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 08:20:54 pm
it's you.How so
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 25, 2014, 08:28:51 pm
Why, yes I did.
RTFT
Revives do not happen simultaneously. If two priests attempt to revive the same target, who gets to do the revive is randomly chosen, and the other finds an empty grave.
And since you tried to resolve your flavor inconsistency with ToonyMan by casting doubt at the moderator instead of accuse ToonyMan of lying, you're probably scum.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 25, 2014, 08:33:13 pm
Didn't I just explain?See, problem is, I dont think like you and I did not think to do that.
Why, yes I did.
RTFTRevives do not happen simultaneously. If two priests attempt to revive the same target, who gets to do the revive is randomly chosen, and the other finds an empty grave.
And since you tried to resolve your flavor inconsistency with ToonyMan by casting doubt at the moderator instead of accuse ToonyMan of lying, you're probably scum.
Post by: Hapah on June 26, 2014, 01:14:50 am
There is indeed a Necromancer among us.Thank you for this and the followup information in your later posts.
I must've missed it; was it D1? It makes more sense now.PFWHe's claimed several times that he can't use it on Flabort. Weren't you paying attention?
IG: So you shot off your 1-shot maybe-revive on someone that wasn't the person you need alive to win?
Also, I don't believe I caused Jack to asplode.I don't know why you would have heard about it otherwise.
A necromancer is inconsistent with jacks death since necrosis beats ppl up and Jack got burned. So I assume there's a killing scum team.This may be dumb, but does SuperNat have an Arsonist role? I'm sure it wouldn't be called Arsonist but you know what I mean. It's also not explicitly stated but I don't know that he could be ressed from that, has anyone been brought back from something equally bad (like total dismemberment or something)?
IG: You do see the contradiction in your claim and Toony's, right? One of you is lying.
Bed time for me.
Post by: Tiruin on June 26, 2014, 02:24:27 am
Bed time for me.I forgot to say: Thanks so much Hapah for replacing in for me...As in, so much.
._.
Post by: notquitethere on June 26, 2014, 08:07:09 am
I don't see the contradiction, though IG could have been clearer. He uncovered ZU's face, started the ritual, was disturbed, Toony comes along, digs him up and then revives him. Where's the contradiction?
Incidentally, the only person who hasn't ever voted IG is Toaster, which suggests to me at least that he's probably not scum (or there was some earlier unnecessary bussing going on, which isn't wholly out the question).
Quick Reads
Most Like To Lynch
ToonyMan - Has pressed only two cases, rode the ZU wagon on my suggestion but didn't seem to give it much critical thought. Lots of WIFOM start of day 3 about the scum team being a kill team, focusing the town's attention on IG which is a sideshow.
Hapah - Has pressed only two cases. Currently continuing his IG hunting, which is highly unlikely to lynch us some genuine scum
Toaster - Has only pressed two cases, quite disengaged, would be happy to lynch. Only person who hasn't voted IG.
---
Ottofar - Ottofar started out strong, but his later preoccupation with Flabort seemed a bit off to me.
Persus13 - His final case on Toaster yesterday looks fairly legitimate but his current ZU case is misguided.
Jim Groovester - Pretty solid overall play, lots of attacks, but his sudden leap on to
Sheep - I was suspicious Sheep all yesterday, but that feels misplaced now. His argument against Toony at the end of D2 makes a solid point. I'd know more if one of the two flips.
---
flabort - Flabort is vouched for by Imperial, who I provisionally believe at this time and has investigative info, so would be a poor lynch candidate. His detailed night investigation results suggest he hasn't had his role converted to vampire slave.
Imperial Guardsman - I think his third party claim rings true
zombie urist - Although his alignment might have swapped when he resurrected, it's best to kill the original scum team before we turn on our potential allies
Least Like To Lynch
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 09:07:14 am
I leave the house and walk to the graveyard, and see the Sexton's grave. I proceed to uncover ZUs face and begin the Blood Ritual of Restoration. My life drains a little, but ZU is beginning to revive. Something blows up and I hear a crackling not long after. I proceed to stop the ritual and run back to my house.
Post by: zombie urist on June 26, 2014, 10:58:50 am
Post by: ToonyMan on June 26, 2014, 11:23:21 am
Everyone on the IG lynchZU's grave wasn't disturbed when I arrived. I had to do "a good bit of digging" to unearth the body.
I don't see the contradiction, though IG could have been clearer. He uncovered ZU's face, started the ritual, was disturbed, Toony comes along, digs him up and then revives him. Where's the contradiction?
Awfully protective of your partner, eh? Your scum read of me went from neutral (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392612#msg5392612) a week ago into top lynch target? Why is IG better left alive than me?
@ZU:
Did anyone else hear an explosion last night?The light from the moon "explodes" onto ZU's body. That's it for me.
@IG:
Also, me making an entire role out of nothing is entirely out of the question. Let me try to make my night as clear as possible without quoting it.Believe you me, I cannot see how that doesn't conflict my claim. If Meph says there's no issues then there's some trickery involved, or you lied without thinking of the possibility that a priest would claim. Now, which do you think I believe is true?
I leave the house and walk to the graveyard, and see the Sexton's grave. I proceed to uncover ZUs face and begin the Blood Ritual of Restoration. My life drains a little, but ZU is beginning to revive. Something blows up and I hear a crackling not long after. I proceed to stop the ritual and run back to my house.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 26, 2014, 11:26:28 am
Imperial Guardsman: Jim Groovester, Hapah, ToonyMan
ToonyMan: notquitethere
zombie urist: Persus13
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 11:46:08 am
this is madnessno this is mafia
Okay, you had to do a good bit of digging, yes, to uncover the whole body. If I were a third who interferes with the graveyard, I wouldn't claim a revive, I would let the Priest claim. Im not dumb. My revive failed and yours succeeded, but ZU may have a bit of bad juju. Whos to say I didn't ghoul or demon him and he went into the ground, or meph flubbed up, or you overlooked his face? However, instantly accusing me of being scum? You are too gung ho on scum hunting, you are Too Townie. Also, we know very well that NQT will not stick out his neck for his maf partners and he will sometimes actually bus his partners, so me and NQT being maf is out of the question. Flabort claimed entirely and there is nothing that contradicts my survivor/un-lyncher claim. I for one, think that you are a scum priest or something else with ulterior motives.
Hapah, you seem to not like me at all. I suspect a Lyncher, which is perfectly possible, considering its in the role list, or a hyper tunneling scum. Perhaps look beyond your two cases and actually do some investigation, hmm?
Jim Groovester, you use lots of emotion, mostly anger and hatred, to attempt to crack others and get truth out of them. I have told you everything I know, and you still wish to lynch me. You appear to be a Mafia Ally jumping on a bandwagon.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 26, 2014, 12:08:25 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 26, 2014, 12:33:03 pm
ZU's grave wasn't disturbed when I arrived. I had to do "a good bit of digging" to unearth the body.Still, he both claimed that he revived ZU AND that the revive failed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5410067#msg5410067) before you even said anything about being a priest: if he hadn't attempted some kind of revival he wouldn't have claimed the revive in the first place.
Awfully protective of your partner, eh? Your scum read of me went from neutral (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392612#msg5392612) a week ago into top lynch target? Why is IG better left alive than me?IG's play and people reactions to him really don't point to him being scum. You on the other hand have been standoffish, narrowly focused AND you're pushing a lynch on the person least likely to be mafia. Obviously my reads are going to change as my understanding of the other players changes.
EVERYONE should we be lynching IG over the Toony-IG conflict? I say no, but I'd be interested to see what others think.
IG, Too Townie is a fallacy, also just because people are voting you doesn't mean they're scum or third party, you're seriously diving off the deep end. It's nice that you think I'm like Humphrey Bogart at the beginning of Casablanca (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WxXIs3SQyk), but really I'm more like Humphrey Bogart at the end of Casablanca (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vY-4zWKsJM): I'll ready to defend the Victor Laszlos of the world and fight the Nazis, even if it means working with a former collaborationist French Policeman. Now are you sure you've told us everything that's relevant? Reread you initial PM and the revival failure PM. Anything you've missed?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 12:40:28 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 26, 2014, 12:52:20 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 01:02:14 pm
Hemomancy is simply the manipulation of blood through magic.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 26, 2014, 02:55:16 pm
ToonyYeah, that's the only doubt I have.ZU's grave wasn't disturbed when I arrived. I had to do "a good bit of digging" to unearth the body.Still, he both claimed that he revived ZU AND that the revive failed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5410067#msg5410067) before you even said anything about being a priest: if he hadn't attempted some kind of revival he wouldn't have claimed the revive in the first place.
@IG:
I put the soil back over ZU, while looking at where the boom came from. After I was finished, I ran back home.This would mean you showed up before I did, but wouldn't my character notice the dirt being loose?
Also:
This post doesn't hint that you put the dirt back on him at all.you are a liar i wont listen to you and i am the only person who is rightyeah no
I go to revive our sexton.
I clean away enough dirt to see his corpsey face.
I begin my magic, and start to see red coming to his face.
Jack blows up.
I stop doing what Im doing and run to my house.
And how do you know that rumbling you saw at a nearby house was Jack's house?
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 02:59:22 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on June 26, 2014, 03:02:57 pm
Let's see:
There is indeed a Necromancer among us.Nope.
I found a molten candle at Jiokuy's grave site. The candle had charcoal imbedded in it.
According to the books I consulted, this device can be used to "rekindle [a] soul to life once again." Also, the passage relates to an unholy unlife, rather than a pure and holy life.
Otherwise, my night appeared uneventful.
Maybe...perhaps...you're the Necromancer?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 03:11:23 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 26, 2014, 03:20:53 pm
Why are you and Jim so passive-aggressive with TheWetSheep?
Not sure what you're looking for here; voting him is about as non-passive as you can get.
blah blah IG crap
Eh. I suppose. Not really any meat here to chase up anyway.
Uh, what? I see a player who has had low content but is attempting to get some more. I would think this would be more true of Ottofar or Toony then TheWetSheep.
That's why I yelled at them too.
Flabort:
Toonyman, Toaster, Sheep Who do you suspect of being the Necromancer?
NQT's a good prospect, but I don't have anything concrete on him (other than his slow denial of the accusation.)
Hapah:
What does an incinerated corpse point to? I thought the Neccy kill flavor was people getting beat up.
That one is new. Here's an example Necromancer Zombie kill flavor, for the record:
Spoiler: From Super3 (click to show/hide)
This may be dumb, but does SuperNat have an Arsonist role? I'm sure it wouldn't be called Arsonist but you know what I mean. It's also not explicitly stated but I don't know that he could be ressed from that, has anyone been brought back from something equally bad (like total dismemberment or something)?
Not that we've seen. Also, I doubt that mechanically that someone would be unressable because their corpse was flavor-nuked unless their attacker's kill specifically said so. But that's worth a mod-ask.
Meph: Would the destruction of a player's body prevent their resurrection?
NQT:
Incidentally, the only person who hasn't ever voted IG is Toaster, which suggests to me at least that he's probably not scum (or there was some earlier unnecessary bussing going on, which isn't wholly out the question).
I fail to see the relevance of this.
IG:
Also, me making an entire role out of nothing is entirely out of the question. Let me try to make my night as clear as possible without quoting it.
This is irrelevant.
or you overlooked his face?
You do realize people aren't buried standing up, right? If his face is exposed or nearly so, that means one of three things:
1) He's buried shallow to begin with
2) He's largely unearthed
3) There's a hole leading to his face
1 and 2 are countered by his claim by his claim of...
"a good bit of digging"
3 he would have noticed. So yeah, I do say your claims are fairly contradictory.
I put the soil back over ZU, while looking at where the boom came from. After I was finished, I ran back home.
Remember what I said about your stated inability to whole-cloth fakeclaim a role was irrelevant? Because you wouldn't need to do so; only faking bits and pieces of it is enough. Like here, it damn sure feels like you're adding on bits of information as they become relevant, inventing them on the way.
But there's one thing that really bothers me, right here:
I for one, think that you are a scum priest or something else with ulterior motives.
If that's true, why aren't you voting him?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 26, 2014, 03:31:55 pm
Meph: Would the destruction of a player's body prevent their resurrection?
Generally, no. The Gods can do pretty much whatever they need to when bringing someone back. The ability to kill someone so they are unrevivable is possible, but it would be a specific Power that would do it.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 26, 2014, 04:24:05 pm
Everyone on the IG lynch
I don't see the contradiction, though IG could have been clearer. He uncovered ZU's face, started the ritual, was disturbed, Toony comes along, digs him up and then revives him. Where's the contradiction?
Last night I dug up ZU's body and revived him.
I dug up the grave,
Tell me there's no contradiction.
It's more than just an issue with the flavor though. Imperial Guardsman claimed he no longer has his revive, and of course ToonyMan claimed a successful revive. This isn't how resurrections work in Supernatural, as I've explained. (See Supernatural 5 N2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106608.msg3368476#msg3368476) for an example of priests targeting the same corpse.) They both cannot have used up their revive attempts on the same target.
One of them is lying and not telling the whole truth about his role, and my money's on the guy with the fishy patchwork role claim.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 04:32:04 pm
ignoranceI told you it was one shot, as in one use.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 26, 2014, 04:35:40 pm
Post by: flabort on June 26, 2014, 04:38:31 pm
There's no contradiction of his ability being consumed that way.
There IS still a contradiction of the dirt having been completely undisturbed when Toony arrived.
And as much as I want to believe IG's claim, it's getting less and less believable. IG, you're going to have to do better than that.
Post by: notquitethere on June 26, 2014, 04:42:35 pm
Flabort, but it'd have been a freshly dug grave either way, wouldn't it? The soil would have been fresh regardless.
Toaster, what I'm saying is, only one person hasn't tried to get IG killed. Someone getting so many votes is either a sign of bussing or that scum are voting them.
Post by: flabort on June 26, 2014, 04:56:47 pm
So if IG covered it back up in a hurry when his groove was thrown off by an explosion, the dirt would have been indistinguishable from when it got put there barely hours ago.
So, unless anyone has another contradiction to bring up, or someone has another explanation as to why this happened (such as they found the grave and covered it back up between one visit and another), I'll unvote.
And get back on Toaster's case. What did YOU do last night, and why haven't we heard about it yet?
Anyone else besides Toony or IG Surely some of your actions last night are worth mentioning. NQT, Hapah, did you do anything near the graveyard or Jack's house last night?
Post by: zombie urist on June 26, 2014, 05:03:17 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 26, 2014, 05:04:42 pm
I think what IG means is that his proc'd first, then failed, consuming it. THEN Toony's proc'd.
There's no contradiction of his ability being consumed that way.
I suppose it's possible he brought back bad juju that landed somewhere besides zombie urist.
BRB clarifying with Meph.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 05:08:25 pm
Post by: flabort on June 26, 2014, 05:11:50 pm
And THAT is why I suggested he may have accidentally killed Jack.I think what IG means is that his proc'd first, then failed, consuming it. THEN Toony's proc'd.
There's no contradiction of his ability being consumed that way.
I suppose it's possible he brought back bad juju that landed somewhere besides zombie urist.
BRB clarifying with Meph.
Where you revived ZU successfully, but in order to do so without the proper reagents, the spell went wild and killed Jack, is that what you're saying? That to revive ZU, the spell needed a soul for a soul?
It turns out he didn't revive ZU at all, according to the current status of his claim, but remember how he said that the gods might take notice of what he's doing, say "MURDERER" for killing that guard, and smite him down? The smite might have missed and hit Jack. Which is what scared IG off.
Maybe.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 05:17:28 pm
Considering that gods apparently smite with magic and the wizard is a walking nexus of magic, that may very well be what happened. And, yes, I am looking for forgiveness from the gods.And THAT is why I suggested he may have accidentally killed Jack.I think what IG means is that his proc'd first, then failed, consuming it. THEN Toony's proc'd.
There's no contradiction of his ability being consumed that way.
I suppose it's possible he brought back bad juju that landed somewhere besides zombie urist.
BRB clarifying with Meph.Where you revived ZU successfully, but in order to do so without the proper reagents, the spell went wild and killed Jack, is that what you're saying? That to revive ZU, the spell needed a soul for a soul?
It turns out he didn't revive ZU at all, according to the current status of his claim, but remember how he said that the gods might take notice of what he's doing, say "MURDERER" for killing that guard, and smite him down? The smite might have missed and hit Jack. Which is what scared IG off.
Maybe.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 26, 2014, 05:25:45 pm
(See Supernatural 5 N2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106608.msg3368476#msg3368476) for an example of priests targeting the same corpse.)Yeah, plus in this, the priest who failed the revive came afterwards, not before.
@ZU:
Kills happen before resurrections. why was IG doing the res before Jack got exploded?That's true.
@Flabort:
The smite might have missed and hit Jack. Which is what scared IG off.So uh, we should leave a third-party alive who gets random people killed during the night? I don't think so.
Maybe.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 05:27:05 pm
Again, wizards are a magic nexus and I was performing possibly unholy blood magic. I dont get randoms killed in the night.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 26, 2014, 05:28:34 pm
What are you trying to say here?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 05:34:47 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 26, 2014, 05:38:13 pm
IG, and you're absolutely certain that you're one-shot was used up then?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 26, 2014, 05:38:36 pm
Imperial Guardsman, why did you use zombie urist's blood to kill Jack A T?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 26, 2014, 06:26:20 pm
Imperial Guardsman: Jim Groovester, Hapah, ToonyMan
Toaster: flabort
ToonyMan: Imperial Guardsman, notquitethere
zombie urist: Persus13
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 06:28:15 pm
I suppose a randomly targeted kill after a failed revive is possible but I think it's unlikely.I assume being interrupted while using blood magic is a Bad Ideatm.
Imperial Guardsman, why did you use zombie urist's blood to kill Jack A T?
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 26, 2014, 07:06:00 pm
It looks like IG is the one lying here, since he's basically claiming anything to keep him alive, and Toony's backed up by ZU. He also went berserk in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5412455#msg5412455) and lashed out angrily and irrationally at everyone who was voting for him, not something somebody who was telling the truth would usually do.
Toony:
Jack AT probably prevented Night 1's kill, good on him.What makes you think scum don't have a limited conversion ability?
IG:You heard a nearby house explode and paused to cover ZU with dirt before you left?
Meph: Are there hammers in this game? How many votes?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 26, 2014, 07:27:22 pm
Toony:It's possible.Jack AT probably prevented Night 1's kill, good on him.What makes you think scum don't have a limited conversion ability?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 26, 2014, 07:50:56 pm
Meph: Are there hammers in this game? How many votes?
No
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 08:26:51 pm
IG:You heard a nearby house explode and paused to cover ZU with dirt before you left?It was quick.
Post by: Toaster on June 26, 2014, 08:52:29 pm
I for one agree with NQT and think our problem is Toony.
So that's your response to this?
I for one, think that you are a scum priest or something else with ulterior motives.
If that's true, why aren't you voting him?
Quietly voting him back without acknowledging what I said? Yeah, that's a scum move right there.
Flabort:
And get back on Toaster's case. What did YOU do last night, and why haven't we heard about it yet?
I am ignoring your extremely blatant rolefishing.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 09:00:20 pm
i am ignorantYou never once talked to me about toony. Also, my response to what? Your argument carries no weight, you bandwagoning scum.
Post by: Toaster on June 26, 2014, 09:04:48 pm
Are you reading my posts? Go look at the post of mine I quoted, and the quote of yours it contains.
Post by: flabort on June 26, 2014, 09:11:14 pm
Know what? Don't really care about toaster right now. IG, I was willing to believe you before, but that's just dumb. If you're going to be that childish, and ignorant, and blind... At this moment, nothing you're saying seems believable.i am ignorantYou never once talked to me about toony. Also, my response to what? Your argument carries no weight, you bandwagoning scum.
Imperial Guardsman, I am a fool for having believed you earlier.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 09:14:46 pm
Know what? Don't really care about toaster right now. IG, I was willing to believe you before, but that's just dumb. If you're going to be that childish, and ignorant, and blind... At this moment, nothing you're saying seems believable.Oh, just because Im complaining that he isnt being clear?
Imperial Guardsman, I am a fool for having believed you earlier.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 26, 2014, 09:18:27 pm
Know what? Don't really care about toaster right now. IG, I was willing to believe you before, but that's just dumb. If you're going to be that childish, and ignorant, and blind... At this moment, nothing you're saying seems believable.Oh, just because Im complaining that he isnt being clear?
Imperial Guardsman, I am a fool for having believed you earlier.
The irony!
I suppose a randomly targeted kill after a failed revive is possible but I think it's unlikely.I assume being interrupted while using blood magic is a Bad Ideatm.
Imperial Guardsman, why did you use zombie urist's blood to kill Jack A T?
Apparently you missed the part where I'm accusing you of being a SK instead of a Flabort-Ally.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 09:23:35 pm
Fuck off, Dariush II.Know what? Don't really care about toaster right now. IG, I was willing to believe you before, but that's just dumb. If you're going to be that childish, and ignorant, and blind... At this moment, nothing you're saying seems believable.Oh, just because Im complaining that he isnt being clear?
Imperial Guardsman, I am a fool for having believed you earlier.
The irony!I suppose a randomly targeted kill after a failed revive is possible but I think it's unlikely.I assume being interrupted while using blood magic is a Bad Ideatm.
Imperial Guardsman, why did you use zombie urist's blood to kill Jack A T?
Apparently you missed the part where I'm accusing you of being a SK instead of a Flabort-Ally.
I deny all accusations and stand by my claim.
And even if you decide to kill me, Ill just use my last ability and put in a replacement for Jiokuy.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 26, 2014, 09:29:22 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 26, 2014, 09:30:12 pm
Post by: Toady One on June 26, 2014, 09:32:44 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 26, 2014, 09:36:58 pm
Post by: Jack A T on June 26, 2014, 09:37:13 pm
I have no idea if this is any more cantankerous than a regular mafia game.I was a bit more of an ass than I should have been at times, and the discussion has sometimes descended to low-value insults, but I think it has been otherwise non-terrible.
Post by: Toady One on June 26, 2014, 09:39:25 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 26, 2014, 09:49:28 pm
Yeah, it's hard to moderate them, since a different standard applies obviously. I was called in regarding IG's last few posts. In any case, please go on merrily killing each other or whatever it is you are doing in this one.
Well, that answers whether or not I get alerts for moderation in this forum (I don't). Sorry you had to come in, Toady.
Let's all chill a little, shall we? It's just a game, after all, and accusations are part of the game. No need to get worked up by them.
Post by: Nerjin on June 26, 2014, 09:51:08 pm
Post by: zombie urist on June 26, 2014, 10:45:54 pm
And even if you decide to kill me, Ill just use my last ability and put in a replacement for Jiokuy.Whoever replaces in for IG needs to explain this.
If we do assume that IG is responsible for Jack's death, then where's the necromancer kill? Where's the scum kill? Argh this is pretty frustrating.
Ahmmm....
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 26, 2014, 10:46:48 pm
Post by: Hapah on June 27, 2014, 12:50:26 am
PFW
No trouble! Wish I would have known life was gonna be a bastard as soon as I stepped in though, I woulda let the other guy that volunteered have it.Bed time for me.I forgot to say: Thanks so much Hapah for replacing in for me...As in, so much.
._.
Did anyone else hear an explosion last night?I did not.
EVERYONE should we be lynching IG over the Toony-IG conflict? I say no, but I'd be interested to see what others think.Given how the day has played out so far I don't think it'd be a terrible idea. Has your opinion changed with this new data?
Because jack was found as a charred skeleton, its only logical to assume it was jack who blew up.The fact that you saw/heard the explosion cannot be dismissed. There are other ways that Meph could've made your spell fail, but he chose this one: it means you were likely somehow involved.
Why would your character see that and not mine? I suppose I showed up after so it would be too late, but what about Flabort?I'm not sure I follow. You think IG is the neccy?
Let's see:There is indeed a Necromancer among us.Nope.
I found a molten candle at Jiokuy's grave site. The candle had charcoal imbedded in it.
According to the books I consulted, this device can be used to "rekindle [a] soul to life once again." Also, the passage relates to an unholy unlife, rather than a pure and holy life.
Otherwise, my night appeared uneventful.
Maybe...perhaps...you're the Necromancer?
NQT, Hapah, did you do anything near the graveyard or Jack's house last night?I did not on both counts.
I suppose a randomly targeted kill after a failed revive is possible but I think it's unlikely.I feel confident in saying that IG caused Jack to get burned; intentional or not. I don't see why it would have been mentioned in his results otherwise.
Seconded so hard.And even if you decide to kill me, Ill just use my last ability and put in a replacement for Jiokuy.Whoever replaces in for IG needs to explain this.
I'm starting to suspect that there might not be a "traditional" scum or cult team. My reasoning is that with one definite SK (Werebear), one very likely SK (Neccy, if you believe flabort. His claims seem genuine to me), and one whatever-the-hell IG is (who I think exploded Jack, intentional or not), how weak would the actual scum team need to be for the game to be balanced? I took a quick look at the rolelists from past SuperNats, and if there are this many thirds with a real scum team it seems like the deck would be stacked pretty far towards anti-town. Am I totally off-base thinking this?
Post by: flabort on June 27, 2014, 12:55:15 am
I find that hard to believe, but it does seem conceivable. The thought that we're facing an all SK threat may have crossed my mind a few times; usually to be dismissed, of course.
Post by: Hapah on June 27, 2014, 01:15:34 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 27, 2014, 01:55:54 am
I'm starting to suspect that there might not be a "traditional" scum or cult team. My reasoning is that with one definite SK (Werebear), one very likely SK (Neccy, if you believe flabort. His claims seem genuine to me), and one whatever-the-hell IG is (who I think exploded Jack, intentional or not), how weak would the actual scum team need to be for the game to be balanced? I took a quick look at the rolelists from past SuperNats, and if there are this many thirds with a real scum team it seems like the deck would be stacked pretty far towards anti-town. Am I totally off-base thinking this?
I'm starting to come around to the same opinion. I think we should be wary of a traditional scum team though. Regardless I'm still in favor of lynching IG/his replacement unless somebody even scummier comes along.
Actually, If we're only dealing with third parties, a mass claim should be pretty informative and relatively safe. So I guess the question is, who else is willing to gamble on there not being a traditional scum team or cult team?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 27, 2014, 02:06:18 am
Composing himself, the High Priest looks out at the rest of you. "Jiokuy was a Werebear, that much is obvious. But he was no friend of this town. It seems the gods had cursed him for his sins, and he in turn took it upon himself to be a force for evil as a Killer. But he was not the threat that the gods are truly worried about. We are safer now, yes, but still all in great danger. May the gods keep the Just safe tonight."
This flavor passage does seem to suggest that there is a scum team. Or it could be Meph faking us out.
Interesting that IG mentioned trying to get forgiveness from the gods (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5413400#msg5413400).
Post by: notquitethere on June 27, 2014, 03:36:05 am
If you believe IG was responsible for Jack's death, then where's the necromancer kill? Was Flabort lying? Where's the scum kill? Why would IG claim the revive when he could so easily be counter claimed AND claim the revive failed?
Uh oh. I've just realised, IG could well have said he raised ZU 'cos he was fakeclaiming priest all along, then realise he might be counterclaimed then hastily claw that back. Also, why is he both an Exile Mage AND a Hemomancer?
Nerjin, if you're replacing in for IG, get a copy of the night PMs and tell us with your superior clarity and penmanship what's really going on.
Spoiler: Regarding Replacing Out (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on June 27, 2014, 03:49:32 am
Treat the attitude as a role--the role you're hunting. Attitudes =/= The Person.
IG: To speak frankly, there are times wherein anger gets to you because of what others say--reply calmly no matter what happened before, after or at the current time. Do not compare people to [certain figures that are a figure of {bad}] in your eyes--it brands people. It labels people. It is unjustified and not...right.
I know your background--or at least could guess what factors come through your mind and thoughts when faced with adversity. I ask, please, do not let it paint your vision here in treating others. You have to look at the attitude and probably find a cleaner way to settle disputes, like asking 'hey, why're you like that?'. Jim is snarky snark, but he's not Dariush. Dariush, in his defense, is exposed daily to an environment that is...more caustic than the norm, wherein toxicity is (generally) the norm, but he's controlling it. Just quick to use...crude words when bad stuff occurs (and generalisms), but that's another story.
Now as a point to your playstyle, there's the whole 'quote a person and reword how you feel', which is good! But know that in-game, people will act to it not against YOU but treat it as a significant point to discern your role.
@4mask: While reporting to Toady is all well and good--there are times wherein you can note a wrong being done by others and intervene yourself. Diffuse the situation without throwing a punch into the mixture. I'd like most grievances to be fixed that way, but most aren't all because of assumptions and presumptions made on both sides (you did this because x but I did y because z...). Speak as equals and how you'd want to be spoken to. With respect, understanding and clarity.
Not saying anything against any of y'all, but I do note that sometimes, the toxicity rises in such levels that the whole Mafia board (and those who inhabit it) are being viewed in a very bad light by other people (much like how NAZI = GERMANY branding...you can see the logic in that [Hint: There's none, but the beliefs to individuals AND NOT THE PEOPLE, and even further--the attitude and not the person. It's a deep concept.]). An allegory pertaining to how negativity blinds people and paints a huge mess out of a relatively tiny problem/source.
Don't give in to presumptions guys. It's not becoming of a person to do so and judge the other from it. This is out-of-mafia advice (or how you treat mafia talk anyways).
Post by: Persus13 on June 27, 2014, 09:03:29 am
Jack AT probably prevented Night 1's kill, good on him.I doubt it, given that Jack A T said we almost certainly had a cult yesterday. I doubt he'd be so certain if he had blocked a kill.
@NQT:Did it specifically say it was undisturbed?Everyone on the IG lynchZU's grave wasn't disturbed when I arrived. I had to do "a good bit of digging" to unearth the body.
I don't see the contradiction, though IG could have been clearer. He uncovered ZU's face, started the ritual, was disturbed, Toony comes along, digs him up and then revives him. Where's the contradiction?
notquitethere:
Not so fast Persus. We know ZU may be good, we also know that there are scum players out there. It's absurd to lynch ZU today. Better kill all the original scum and see whether we've won and then if not we can kill ZU as back up. It's senseless to waste a lynch on him, especially in a potential cult set-up.Yeah, good point. Unvote. Lynching a possible third party is not the best idea at the moment.
EVERYONE should we be lynching IG over the Toony-IG conflict? I say no, but I'd be interested to see what others think.I wouldn't mind lynching IG (and haven't minded since D1), but I do think we should focus on hunting elsewhere as well to be in a good position tomorrow.
Did it say anything about putting the soil back over ZU?
I put the soil back over ZU.This is really convenient, especially since it's right after IG said he had nothing else to add and he hadn't specified this earlier, even though it would have explained the contradiction.
Why are you leading IG by asking questions that help his claim? I'm noticing a pattern where you go "maybe it was this" and IG going "that's right" even though he didn't mention it earlier.
It's just I'm having Supernatural 6 flashbacks where I didn't know the possibility of the hybrid cult and then lost horribly because I'd assumed nothing like that could happen, which along with Magic Mafia has given me a heightened fear of ignored cults. As far as I'm concerned, IG was a bit shady, but he didn't look to be a cult leader and so there are still better people to target.Yeah, but does a full-blown cult and multiple third parties sound like a balanced game to you? Unless flabort is lying and distracting us with good flavor (which frankly, I don't think him capable of). What's your theory?
Toaster:
Persus:Yes, after implying he was scummy without being very aggressive about it for several days.Why are you and Jim so passive-aggressive with TheWetSheep?
Not sure what you're looking for here; voting him is about as non-passive as you can get.
Flabort:
I think what IG means is that his proc'd first, then failed, consuming it. THEN Toony's proc'd.Yes, but Jim was specifically saying that that isn't how revives work in Supernatural games. All revives are one-shots, and the last time a revive failed, the person was able to reuse it the next night.
And get back on Toaster's case. What did YOU do last night, and why haven't we heard about it yet?Maybe people haven't claimed because they don't want to die tomorrow night?
Anyone else besides Toony or IG Surely some of your actions last night are worth mentioning. NQT, Hapah, did you do anything near the graveyard or Jack's house last night?
Imperial
Know what? Don't really care about toaster right now. IG, I was willing to believe you before, but that's just dumb. If you're going to be that childish, and ignorant, and blind... At this moment, nothing you're saying seems believable.Oh, just because Im complaining that he isnt being clear?
Imperial Guardsman, I am a fool for having believed you earlier.
He's being very clear. The only ambiguous thing in this post is the quote where it's unclear which player you think is a scum priest.
Imperial Guardsman:I for one agree with NQT and think our problem is Toony.
So that's your response to this?I for one, think that you are a scum priest or something else with ulterior motives.
If that's true, why aren't you voting him?
Quietly voting him back without acknowledging what I said? Yeah, that's a scum move right there.
4maskwolf:
Just FYI IG, if you get a warning from the Toad you can blame me for reporting you. Not just for mafia things, but other places as well.That was kind of unnecessary. Having almost everyone baying for your blood can be very stressful.
Oh, and replacement listCan't you only replace in for TheWetSheep?
Jim and Hapah:
It sounds plausible, but three thirds isn't a lot more then normal. Maybe there's only a 1 or 2 person scumteam, but I doubt there wouldn't be any scumteam.I'm starting to suspect that there might not be a "traditional" scum or cult team. My reasoning is that with one definite SK (Werebear), one very likely SK (Neccy, if you believe flabort. His claims seem genuine to me), and one whatever-the-hell IG is (who I think exploded Jack, intentional or not), how weak would the actual scum team need to be for the game to be balanced? I took a quick look at the rolelists from past SuperNats, and if there are this many thirds with a real scum team it seems like the deck would be stacked pretty far towards anti-town. Am I totally off-base thinking this?
I'm starting to come around to the same opinion. I think we should be wary of a traditional scum team though. Regardless I'm still in favor of lynching IG/his replacement unless somebody even scummier comes along.
Everyone:
If we do assume that IG is responsible for Jack's death, then where's the necromancer kill? Where's the scum kill? Argh this is pretty frustrating.This. Anyone have any ideas? I'm starting to wonder if we're dealing with a Necromancer scum team or something. There have been third party versions of scumteams in the past (Lone Vampire) so it could be possible. Things are definitely confusing and Jim's idea of lynching IG for answers might be a good idea at this point.
Post by: Persus13 on June 27, 2014, 09:15:09 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 27, 2014, 09:58:01 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on June 27, 2014, 10:01:12 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on June 27, 2014, 10:13:02 am
Why are you leading IG by asking questions that help his claim? I'm noticing a pattern where you go "maybe it was this" and IG going "that's right" even though he didn't mention it earlier.I just noticed he was really bad at explaining himself. A bit like ZU really. Won't use twenty words to explain something clearly when ten unclear words will do. Obviously, where it looks like he's just making it up as he goes along doesn't help his case and his mention of a second power shows he's been less than honest with us... but he's not a cult leader so I think there's better lynch targets.
Yeah, but does a full-blown cult and multiple third parties sound like a balanced game to you? Unless flabort is lying and distracting us with good flavor (which frankly, I don't think him capable of). What's your theory?Multiple killers and a cult may be seen as balancing as the killers are likely to hit each other or the cult at times. But look, given there's only been one kill over two nights, unless Jack was REALLY good at selecting targets for protection, we'd expect a few more kills if there were multiple 3rd party killers and a kill cult.
Everyone:We can't afford too many info-lynches when there's the a potential cult. Kill mafia narrow the range of suspects for scum hunters, cult teams widen the range. They're the worst.If we do assume that IG is responsible for Jack's death, then where's the necromancer kill? Where's the scum kill? Argh this is pretty frustrating.This. Anyone have any ideas? I'm starting to wonder if we're dealing with a Necromancer scum team or something. There have been third party versions of scumteams in the past (Lone Vampire) so it could be possible. Things are definitely confusing and Jim's idea of lynching IG for answers might be a good idea at this point.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 27, 2014, 10:20:49 am
The part about me is uncalled for. The actual report was for the way you were treating other people's posts. I was simply giving you a heads up. I am entitled to report to the Toad if I feel it is necessary, and I think that your insulting people within their own quotes, changing the words to fit your view of the post (such as changing Toaster's post to "I am ignorant") is over the line. As such, I reported, and the Toad cleared you. So I have nothing more to say on the issue.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The report was intended to, at most, indicate you needed to calm that kind of thing. That's all.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 27, 2014, 10:35:07 am
We can't afford too many info-lynches when there's the a potential cult. Kill mafia narrow the range of suspects for scum hunters, cult teams widen the range. They're the worst.The thing is, we have very little information about the nature of scum so far. If we do another mislynch, we learn nothing again, and are in the dark tomorrow. If we lynch IG we are guaranteed to learn something at least. I'd say it's for the best.
Imperial Guardsman
Wolf:
yes. Replacement list for TWS.Yeah, and I'll be leaving in a few days as I mentioned when I replaced in. You can replace me any time you want.
Post by: Toaster on June 27, 2014, 10:40:26 am
One possibility is that there was a cross-kill on Jack. He was hardly a unlikely choice, considering that pretty much everyone thought he was town. I see no reason for a Necromancer to not kill, given that the zombie kill is pretty much untraceable back to him- whoever blew up Jack may simply have done so before the zombie could go make a mess of him.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 27, 2014, 11:00:47 am
Imperial Guardsman: TheWetSheep, flabort, Jim Groovester, Persus13, Hapah, Toaster, ToonyMan
ToonyMan: Imperial Guardsman, notquitethere
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Nerjin, I'll send you IG's role PM and Night PMs.
@Toaster: There is an actual scum team this game, yes.
Post by: Nerjin on June 27, 2014, 11:02:47 am
Post by: Mephansteras on June 27, 2014, 11:06:03 am
Hat about MOWE? She's above me in the list.
....*SIGH* You are correct. My fault for doing mod work before caffeine. MyOwnWorstEnemy, do you want it instead?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 27, 2014, 11:50:50 am
Post by: notquitethere on June 27, 2014, 11:53:12 am
Basically, full claim before you get lynched.
Post by: zombie urist on June 27, 2014, 03:19:18 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 27, 2014, 04:13:27 pm
NQT: Why are you voting Toonyman when he can't be the cult leader?Yeah, you make a good point. I hadn't adequately thought that through in light of his claim. Though I still think he's scummy, he's not a vampire or charismatic cultist (unless he's fakeclaiming on behalf of a scum ally, but that's an unlikely ploy given the possibility of a town Thief). As such, there are better lynch candidates today.
Hmm, unvote for now. Gonna do some figuring things...
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 27, 2014, 05:53:15 pm
One possibility is that there was a cross-kill on Jack. He was hardly a unlikely choice, considering that pretty much everyone thought he was town. I see no reason for a Necromancer to not kill, given that the zombie kill is pretty much untraceable back to him- whoever blew up Jack may simply have done so before the zombie could go make a mess of him.
But the flavor would tell us if Jack was targeted by a kill from two sources, unless everything I think I know about Meph games isn't true.
Meph, if a player is a kill target from two different sources, the flavor will indicate this, correct?
It sounds plausible, but three thirds isn't a lot more then normal. Maybe there's only a 1 or 2 person scumteam, but I doubt there wouldn't be any scumteam.
Three killer third parties would be more than usual, though.
Yes, but Jim was specifically saying that that isn't how revives work in Supernatural games. All revives are one-shots, and the last time a revive failed, the person was able to reuse it the next night.
I talked to Meph about this.
If IG's power worked like a priest did, where the resurrection always happens but what they come back as is not certain, then this is the case; IG's revive would not be used up.
If IG's power didn't work like a priest, i.e., if on failure the corpse does not get revived and 'something bad' happens, then it's possible that both ToonyMan and IG can target the same corpse and have the role situation we are currently debating, where both their one-shots are consumed.
But I also asked Meph if a random-targeting kill was a potential result of a 'something bad' happening, and he said it was possible but unlikely, and any negative result from revive failure would usually target either the performer or the receiver. But these are by no means hard and fast rules, he said.
This leads me to think that IG's role isn't really what he claimed, and my accusation that he's a killer who uses dead (town) corpses to power a kill.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 27, 2014, 06:10:03 pm
One possibility is that there was a cross-kill on Jack. He was hardly a unlikely choice, considering that pretty much everyone thought he was town. I see no reason for a Necromancer to not kill, given that the zombie kill is pretty much untraceable back to him- whoever blew up Jack may simply have done so before the zombie could go make a mess of him.
But the flavor would tell us if Jack was targeted by a kill from two sources, unless everything I think I know about Meph games isn't true.
Meph, if a player is a kill target from two different sources, the flavor will indicate this, correct?
Hmm. Typically if multiple people target the same source I'm pretty sure only the one that wins gets flavor written for it in the day start text. I may not be particularly consistent about that, though.
Post by: Silthuri on June 27, 2014, 07:25:39 pm
Fullclaim: I am an Exiled Mage. I require flabort to assist me in dealing with the god because he's a descendent of many warriors who fought the dark gods and such and I need his blood for the portal to get to the god. He is town and I need him alive at the end for this, or I assume my wincon becomes "survive until the end." I do have a one-shot revive, but IG did not use it last night. Why he claimed he did, I don't know. I guess he was trying to make himself seem more innocent because of the pressure and hoped the person who actually revived ZU didn't say anything. The revive I have does have a 50% chance of failing and failing makes something bad happen. My role PM states that I have to eliminate the people that threaten my goals. So maybe I have to make sure the cult(if there is one) is killed off since I'm after a cult god.
I skimmed the thread fairly quickly. If I missed anything, I'm sorry.
Post by: flabort on June 27, 2014, 08:44:22 pm
Post by: Silthuri on June 27, 2014, 08:55:00 pm
MOWE So if IG did not use up his revive last night, where did he get the flavor that he was claiming for it's failure? Was he making it up whole cloth?He just made it up and changed the details when people came up with inconsistencies.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 27, 2014, 08:57:45 pm
And why was he fakeclaiming in the first place?
I mean, thanks for replacing in, but I think lynching you is still a good idea.
Post by: Silthuri on June 27, 2014, 09:24:13 pm
So what was he talking about with him hearing Jack A T asploding?
And why was he fakeclaiming in the first place?
I mean, thanks for replacing in, but I think lynching you is still a good idea.
While in my house thinking about how it would feel to have my exile revoked, I did hear Jack asplode. That much was true.
As I said, I think he was fake claiming to try to paint himself as innocent. Like "I can do good things for you! I'm your friend!" I think he was trying to emphasize that he isn't an enemy to town by claiming to do nice things. I think even he was hesitant to use this revive for the bad thing it might cause. The main thing is, and I have no proof of this aside from my word, that I'm not town's enemy. I need town to survive so flabort can survive so I can achieve my wincon and to ensure I win this, I need to make sure the evil is defeated.
Post by: zombie urist on June 27, 2014, 09:29:30 pm
What exactly were you doing when you heard the explosion? Why didn't anyone else claim to hear the explosion?
Post by: Silthuri on June 27, 2014, 10:00:20 pm
MOWE: What's your opinion on NQT? TWS? Persus?
What exactly were you doing when you heard the explosion? Why didn't anyone else claim to hear the explosion?
I'm going to go back and re read the thread and form my opinions on everyone else. My main focus in reading earlier was finding out what IG had done and said to answer NQT's question.
Like I said, I was sitting at home, thinking about how it would feel to redeem myself by killing the god. I wanted people to like me and understand why I did what I did. I was actually sitting at my desk writing all of this in a journal by candlelight.
I think I was the only one to hear the explosion because it probably wasn't too terribly large if his house is still in decent shape and I was the only one close enough to hear it.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 27, 2014, 10:39:27 pm
And even if you decide to kill me, Ill just use my last ability and put in a replacement for Jiokuy.Do you have any idea about what he was talking about here?
Post by: Tiruin on June 27, 2014, 10:49:07 pm
Of last note: 4mask, that what you did is doing what I directly said will not address the issue. Toady is a very good mediator//person in that case, however if you don't directly say the cause, the reason and the act itself with what you're concerned with, then it is more than possible in the case of being... penalized(?) that the intent and the reason to learn from the intent will be misinterpreted.The part about me is uncalled for. The actual report was for the way you were treating other people's posts. I was simply giving you a heads up. I am entitled to report to the Toad if I feel it is necessary, and I think that your insulting people within their own quotes, changing the words to fit your view of the post (such as changing Toaster's post to "I am ignorant") is over the line. As such, I reported, and the Toad cleared you. So I have nothing more to say on the issue.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The report was intended to, at most, indicate you needed to calm that kind of thing. That's all.
How would IG notice that which you say here? Misinterpretations could go like that. Like how I interpreted his way of 'quoting others and replacing with those one-liner words' as his own...style or playstyle in handling others in Mafia. Yes, it is rude in many ways, but that could be reflective of his playstyle (though since we're not in a BM he's fully open for repercussions in that manner).
The last part is probably called for, on you, due to the details you were operating on (your viewpoint) versus the details he was operating on (his viewpoint). He did not know what you were poking at. This is what I meant by directness/exactness.
At best, you could've either called him out in public or PM'd him to settle the dispute. As such, I'm glad to see you're both handling it maturely. :)
...I do seriously hope y'all will still be friends. Don't let a spat of anger tarnish it, K?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 27, 2014, 11:15:41 pm
I'm not sure I follow. You think IG is the neccy?I'm willing to bet he's something like that, yeah.
Look at what Jim says here:
This leads me to think that IG's role isn't really what he claimed, and my accusation that he's a killer who uses dead (town) corpses to power a kill.This sounds extremely reasonable. And guess what Flabort found at Jiokuy's grave site last night? Necromancer signs.
@Persus13:
Toony:That's true.Jack AT probably prevented Night 1's kill, good on him.I doubt it, given that Jack A T said we almost certainly had a cult yesterday. I doubt he'd be so certain if he had blocked a kill.
I wager I don't have to answer this anymore, given how MOWE has admitted that IG was lying about the grave-digging.@NQT:Did it specifically say it was undisturbed?Everyone on the IG lynchZU's grave wasn't disturbed when I arrived. I had to do "a good bit of digging" to unearth the body.
I don't see the contradiction, though IG could have been clearer. He uncovered ZU's face, started the ritual, was disturbed, Toony comes along, digs him up and then revives him. Where's the contradiction?
@MOWE:
Thanks for replacing in, but there's no reason why IG should have lied so much, unless he was doing something malicious. I don't trust you at all.
Post by: flabort on June 27, 2014, 11:43:33 pm
Unvote.
Toonyman When did you last post a list of reads? Can you post a revised list?
Everyone else Can you also post revised reads lists?
Post by: Ottofar on June 28, 2014, 08:08:04 am
Post by: Mephansteras on June 28, 2014, 12:38:02 pm
MyOwnWorstEnemy: TheWetSheep, Jim Groovester, Persus13, Hapah, Toaster, ToonyMan
ToonyMan: MyOwnWorstEnemy
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday
Post by: zombie urist on June 28, 2014, 11:46:45 pm
Persus: Why are you voting IG? What's your read on TWS?
TWS: Why are you voting IG? What's your read on Toonyman?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 29, 2014, 01:07:17 am
I'm gonna take the time to post today
Oh, really.
Everyone else Can you also post revised reads lists?
Blaurgh if Meph says there's a scum team I guess I should try to look for them.
My reads are all jumbled up since I have no idea what's going on in this game. I'll take some time to work on it tomorrow.
Post by: flabort on June 29, 2014, 01:25:22 am
Thank you, Jim, I was going to say the same thing. In essence, at least.I'm gonna take the time to post today
Oh, really.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 29, 2014, 10:25:06 am
Toonyman When did you last post a list of reads? Can you post a revised list?Not sure why I have a slightly different question, but okay:
Scum
IG/MOWE - Liar and malicious.
Notquitethere - Blatantly defended IG/MOWE.
Ottofar - Zero commitment.
TheWetSheep - Posts better than 4maskwolf, but I still have a bad feeling...
Middle Ground
Persus13 - Lack of activity and weird questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392913#msg5392913) (I was just testing you!!).
Hapah - Posts seem okay enough. Not sure.
Town
Flabort - Most most likely town, it helps that NQT wants them dead (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392612#msg5392612). A Town Sage.
Jim - As fine as Jack AT was now. No idea what they are though.
Zombie Urist - I'm confident my revive worked now that IG's claim doesn't involve ZU anymore. A Town Sexton.
Toaster - I'm gonna be honest here, Toaster must either be a form of Mystic or he's converted. I think it's more likely he's a mystic, he inspected me Night 1, and got a town result. A Town Mystic? Otherwise he's scum scum scum-on-a-stick which gives me bad Supernatural 6 flashbacks.
With Jack's death being possibly explained by IG's death magic that makes another night without a scum team kill. It's possible that we've been lucky so far (Jack blocks the N1 kill, both IG and scum kill Jack N2), but that doesn't seem as likely, but still possible.
Post by: Silthuri on June 29, 2014, 12:30:24 pm
@MOWE:There's a reason for his lying: he's third party and kinda messed everything up. He was and I am a third party that poses no threat to town and he just had a very bad way of trying to prove his innocence. Isn't IG a pretty scummy player to begin with anyway?
Thanks for replacing in, but there's no reason why IG should have lied so much, unless he was doing something malicious. I don't trust you at all.
I'm still working on the reads. This is a long game...
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 29, 2014, 06:01:17 pm
TWS: Why are you voting IG? What's your read on Toonyman?Read the part where I vote him. Toonyman's probably town because he's confirmed to have raised you.
Post by: notquitethere on June 29, 2014, 06:16:06 pm
Flabort - Most most likely town, it helps that NQT wants them dead (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392612#msg5392612). A Town Sage.Either this is wilful spreading of bullshit, you can't comprehend that people's reads change, or you haven't actually been reading the thread:
flabort - Flabort is vouched for by Imperial, who I provisionally believe at this time and has investigative info, so would be a poor lynch candidate. His detailed night investigation results suggest he hasn't had his role converted to vampire slave.So are you a liar, an idiot, or are you just lazy?
Toaster - I'm gonna be honest here, Toaster must either be a form of Mystic or he's converted. I think it's more likely he's a mystic, he inspected me Night 1, and got a town result. A Town Mystic? Otherwise he's scum scum scum-on-a-stick which gives me bad Supernatural 6 flashbacks.Where are you pulling this from?
With Jack's death being possibly explained by IG's death magic that makes another night without a scum team kill. It's possible that we've been lucky so far (Jack blocks the N1 kill, both IG and scum kill Jack N2), but that doesn't seem as likely, but still possible.If you think a cult is more possible then why are you trying to lynch and obvious 3rd party? Do you really think IG is conceivably a cult leader?
TheWetSheep, Jim, Persus13, Hapah, Toaster, IG was a liar, but was he a cult leader? Do you really think lynching the most likely 3rd party is the best strategy? Scum win when town waste their lynches on suboptimal picks. Look at the last Supernatural game. Town lynched the same town player two nights in row. A cult is most likely and we need to lynch the cult leader ASAP.
Also, lurker tracker says IG has the most posts, which scum almost never have. In all the games played on this forum last year, only one scum player had the highest post count in the game. Also, he's voted for the most people, and been voted by the most people: both non-scum indicators. You've seriously got to offer better justification for his lynch when there's a potential cult in our midst.
Look I know this makes me look suspicious, defending a confirmed liar who's shady as all hell. But I think it's worth putting my neck on the line to avoid a poor lynch choice.
Sheep
You do realise there are scum priests that raise people with a 50/50 chance of them turning them to their side.TWS: Why are you voting IG? What's your read on Toonyman?Read the part where I vote him. Toonyman's probably town because he's confirmed to have raised you.
I'm literally just working on my case, coming in within an hour or so.
Post by: notquitethere on June 29, 2014, 06:34:41 pm
1. Was hemomancy bullshit?
2. Do you have a second power?
Your head is on the block, it behooves you to be as forthcoming as possible.
Post by: notquitethere on June 29, 2014, 06:46:38 pm
Lynching a possible third party is not the best idea at the moment.
This. Anyone have any ideas? I'm starting to wonder if we're dealing with a Necromancer scum team or something. There have been third party versions of scumteams in the past (Lone Vampire) so it could be possible. Things are definitely confusing and Jim's idea of lynching IG for answers might be a good idea at this point.Meph has confirmed that there is definitely a scum team. Do you really think IG is receiving advice from any scum mates right now?
Post by: notquitethere on June 29, 2014, 06:49:23 pm
The thing is, we have very little information about the nature of scum so far. If we do another mislynch, we learn nothing again, and are in the dark tomorrow. If we lynch IG we are guaranteed to learn something at least. I'd say it's for the best.No, we already know IG is not town and we can have good reason to think he's 3rd party rather than scum. We get no closer to learning the scum team if we waste lynches on third parties. Just look at Jiokuy!
Post by: Persus13 on June 29, 2014, 07:04:52 pm
I think MOWE is lying. Why? This:
So what was he talking about with him hearing Jack A T asploding?
And why was he fakeclaiming in the first place?
I mean, thanks for replacing in, but I think lynching you is still a good idea.
While in my house thinking about how it would feel to have my exile revoked, I did hear Jack asplode. That much was true.
I can't remember Meph sending out a night flavor PM to a player who didn't use an action that night in a Supernatural before (if you find something that contradicts this, let me know), however this is precisely what MOWE is claiming. The last time I remember someone claiming they didn't take an action, it was Tiruin, when she fake claimed Illusionist in Supernatural 6 (and was actually a Charismatic Cultist).
N1 - ...Flavor-flavor. I did in a flavor action. I read a nice book on light and sound. Then slept.
MOWE must be lying.
TheWetSheep, Jim, Persus13, Hapah, Toaster, IG was a liar, but was he a cult leader? Do you really think lynching the most likely 3rd party is the best strategy? Scum win when town waste their lynches on suboptimal picks. Look at the last Supernatural game. Town lynched the same town player two nights in row. A cult is most likely and we need to lynch the cult leader ASAP.We did?
Supernatural 6 Lynches:
D1- Town Nerjin lynch
D2- Scum Caz lynch
D3- Scum Max lynch
D4- Town NQT lynch
Also, why are you so certain of a cult? We have an unexplained death with unique flavor, a necromancer, a dead SK, and whatever IG/MOWE is. If we have a form of cult, do you think they would start very big? What is your alternative proposal? There are tons of questions that are unanswerable at the moment, and by restricting ourselves to looking for cult leader tells could give us all tunnel vision and lose us the game. We ignored the questions raised at the end of Supernatural 6 and it lost us the game. I don't want that to happen again.
Persus, need I remind you of this?Meph said there's a scum team. He didn't say how big it was. And there's also Ottofar lurking around.Lynching a possible third party is not the best idea at the moment.This. Anyone have any ideas? I'm starting to wonder if we're dealing with a Necromancer scum team or something. There have been third party versions of scumteams in the past (Lone Vampire) so it could be possible. Things are definitely confusing and Jim's idea of lynching IG for answers might be a good idea at this point.Meph has confirmed that there is definitely a scum team. Do you really think IG is receiving advice from any scum mates right now?
Persus: Why are you voting IG? What's your read on TWS?TheWetsheep looks like a player who is trying to be helpful but is having a hard time getting content out. At the moment I have a neutral read on him, but I didn't like how Toaster and Jim were subtly undermining him, then suddenly he became their top scumpick, so that makes me see him with a slight lean towards town.
Hapah: Thoughts on MOWE? How about NQT?
I'm willing to believe MOWE for now. But one more suspicious act from MyOwnWorstGuardsman (I will use the accronym MOWG for the remainder of the game), and I will return my vote to MOWG in an instant. Thank you for answering those questions.So, if you aren't going to vote IG/MOWE, what's your alternative to that, aka who do you want lynched today, aka who is your current vote. You have a vote for a reason, use it, don't just let it sit unused. Voting is our greatest weapon.
Unvote.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 29, 2014, 07:22:00 pm
Toonyu madFlabort - Most most likely town, it helps that NQT wants them dead (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5392612#msg5392612). A Town Sage.Either this is wilful spreading of bullshit, you can't comprehend that people's reads change, or you haven't actually been reading the thread:flabort - Flabort is vouched for by Imperial, who I provisionally believe at this time and has investigative info, so would be a poor lynch candidate. His detailed night investigation results suggest he hasn't had his role converted to vampire slave.So are you a liar, an idiot, or are you just lazy?
It's a major hunch I have. Toaster backed off me completely when Day 2 started and I didn't really change what I was doing.Toaster - I'm gonna be honest here, Toaster must either be a form of Mystic or he's converted. I think it's more likely he's a mystic, he inspected me Night 1, and got a town result. A Town Mystic? Otherwise he's scum scum scum-on-a-stick which gives me bad Supernatural 6 flashbacks.Where are you pulling this from?
Is he an obvious third-party or a possible third-party? I don't think ignoring him is a good idea anymore.With Jack's death being possibly explained by IG's death magic that makes another night without a scum team kill. It's possible that we've been lucky so far (Jack blocks the N1 kill, both IG and scum kill Jack N2), but that doesn't seem as likely, but still possible.If you think a cult is more possible then why are you trying to lynch and obvious 3rd party? Do you really think IG is conceivably a cult leader?
Post by: notquitethere on June 29, 2014, 07:28:29 pm
Ottofar, seriously, I get that you're busy but are you really going to trust everyone else to vote on your behalf?
Persus
I can't remember Meph sending out a night flavor PM to a player who didn't use an action that night in a Supernatural before (if you find something that contradicts this, let me know), however this is precisely what MOWE is claiming. The last time I remember someone claiming they didn't take an action, it was Tiruin, when she fake claimed Illusionist in Supernatural 6 (and was actually a Charismatic Cultist).Yeah, that's a fair point.
MOWE, what night action did you perform last night?
We did?I'd misremembered: Nerjin was offed by the monster hunter, who was a member of the cult by that point, so that doesn't count as a town kill, so feel free to ignore that point. I definitely should double-check before making off the cuff claims just from memory! Toaster merely claimed to have made a town kill at the time.
Supernatural 6 Lynches:
D1- Town Nerjin lynch
D2- Scum Caz lynch
D3- Scum Max lynch
D4- Town NQT lynch
Also, why are you so certain of a cult? We have an unexplained death with unique flavor, a necromancer, a dead SK, and whatever IG/MOWE is. If we have a form of cult, do you think they would start very big? What is your alternative proposal? There are tons of questions that are unanswerable at the moment, and by restricting ourselves to looking for cult leader tells could give us all tunnel vision and lose us the game. We ignored the questions raised at the end of Supernatural 6 and it lost us the game. I don't want that to happen again.I'd expect a two-person cult team. I'm not saying there definitely is a scum team, but up until we get a scum team member to flip we just don't know and the risk is too great to waste on side shows. I'd be the first person to lead a lynch on MOWE if I thought she was the most dangerous person in the game right now.
Meph said there's a scum team. He didn't say how big it was. And there's also Ottofar lurking around.Yeah, if we had three kills a day I'd say get Ottofar and IG as well, but they're not the best candidates for scumdom right now: that's Hapah.
Toony
No, I'm always cool, I just think you're dissembling.So are you a liar, an idiot, or are you just lazy?u mad
It's a major hunch I have. Toaster backed off me completely when Day 2 started and I didn't really change what I was doing.OK.
Is he an obvious third-party or a possible third-party? I don't think ignoring him is a good idea anymore.All indicators point to the slot being 3rd party. Are you really so happy to give the scum another night of conversions just so you can off one confirmed-shady likely non-cultist?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 29, 2014, 07:57:58 pm
If Meph gave the scum a one-shot conversion like last time then I'd be mad, but we should still be able to win with our track record so far. We can just lynch Toaster since he's the converted.
If Meph gave scum a typical conversion ability then, no that's terrible. Only a scum team that does not have this ability would try to scare the town with it. Especially if IG/MOWE also flip third-party. That seems wrong since conversions on third-parties fail right? What's the point in that.
You know who else isn't convinced a cult exist? A confirmed townie. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5400636#msg5400636) Until I see evidence...no I don't think they exist.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 29, 2014, 08:00:01 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 29, 2014, 08:30:57 pm
We'll be two deadly third-parties down at worst, and plus I revived a townie back.None of this fills me with confidence, as you're a good candidate for being a scum priest in my eyes. Our track record? Killing someone who could narrow down our targets and maybe hit scum, and killing and uncertainly bringing back a town player? Or were you talking about the death of the doctor? This game has been going terribly for town, we know next to nothing useful and you're leading a wagon on someone who is highly unlikely to be the person we really want to kill.
If Meph gave the scum a one-shot conversion like last time then I'd be mad, but we should still be able to win with our track record so far. We can just lynch Toaster since he's the converted.
If Meph gave scum a typical conversion ability then, no that's terrible. Only a scum team that does not have this ability would try to scare the town with it. Especially if IG/MOWE also flip third-party. That seems wrong since conversions on third-parties fail right? What's the point in that.What are you even babbling about? Please make this argument clearer.
You know who else isn't convinced a cult exist? A confirmed townie. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5400636#msg5400636) Until I see evidence...no I don't think they exist.Just because ZU was town yesterday doesn't mean he had all the answers. He was just a sexton, he didn't have any special powers of reckoning.
Post by: Silthuri on June 29, 2014, 10:12:02 pm
MOWE, what night action did you perform last night?Actually I did. I killed someone. Maybe... I don't know.
Also, MOWE, you never explained:1. Hemomancy was bullshit. I am, however, a -mancer of some sort. :o
1. Was hemomancy bullshit?
2. Do you have a second power?
Your head is on the block, it behooves you to be as forthcoming as possible.
2. I do not.
Yes, my head is on the block and I think I'll lighten the mood just a smidgeon before the axe comes down. :D
I am a necromancer. Not to be confused with neck romancers, which would be vampires. And they suck. I have a lovely zombie that is my faithful companion. Last night, I targeted Jack. Am I the reason he maybe asploded? I don't know. I was told specifically I didn't know the result of what my zombie did. Apparently, he's not much of talker...
Before anyone asks, everything IG ever said was complete bullshit.
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 29, 2014, 10:23:41 pm
You have to be lynched.
Why are you claiming? You're not playing to your win condition by doing that.
Post by: Silthuri on June 29, 2014, 11:19:14 pm
Necromancers can be converted. By Vampire Lords anyway. (See Supernatural 3)
You have to be lynched.
Why are you claiming? You're not playing to your win condition by doing that.
*face palms*
It was a joke... I like dumb jokes and that happens to be one of my favorites since I'm a huge fan of vampires.
No, I'm not helping myself win, but with everyone absolutely positive I'm lying about being innocent, I claimed and made it a joke. Going out with a laugh you could say. I haven't been converted by a vampire lord. I said I was trying to lighten the mood. Apparently I have done the opposite.
Post by: zombie urist on June 30, 2014, 01:23:18 am
TWS I did and your reason sucks and is really lazy. Who are the scummiest people in this game and why? NQT already said this but just because he raised me doesn't mean he's town.TWS: Why are you voting IG? What's your read on Toonyman?Read the part where I vote him. Toonyman's probably town because he's confirmed to have raised you.
Post by: Silthuri on June 30, 2014, 05:06:57 am
It was a shitty joke people. I am a necromancer. That's not a joke. The neck romancer is a joke. My favorite joke. Sorry if I tried to give you all a giggle and just made an ass out of myself.
Post by: notquitethere on June 30, 2014, 05:47:10 am
(Extend)
MOWE claims necromancer. We've got a tool: an additional night kill against the probable cult. Let's not throw away that tool before eking as much as we can out of it.
Let's lynch likely-scum Hapah today, and get MOWE to off targets of our choice. If she kills the wrong person, we can just lynch her tomorrow.
I'd like her to kill Toony: worst case, we'll have gotten rid of a spent town player; best case he's scum like I think. Alternatively, Ottofar the Lurker would be an OK target.
What do people think to this?
Post by: Silthuri on June 30, 2014, 06:06:09 am
Extend.
Post by: notquitethere on June 30, 2014, 06:47:35 am
Necromancers can be converted. By Vampire Lords anyway. (See Supernatural 3)I see your point, but from where I stand if she's only going after the NK targets we select, we'd have to be damned unlucky to pick town targets every time. If there's a cult and we lynch MOWE then we can be certain to have one non-cult killed and one non-cult converted. If we get MOWE to do our bidding then we have a chance not only to kill the actual scum team tonight, but also we might hit a second scum with a necro-kill. What do you think to that?
Meph does the town wincon require just the scum team to be killed, or all threats to town? I.e. if we'd let Jiokuy live until the end, would town have to have killed him as well as the scum team to win?
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 30, 2014, 07:23:43 am
MOWE cannot be trusted to act according to her part of the plan because acting in the town's interests is not the most expedient way to a victory for her. If I were her, I would feign agreement with our plan, and then kill town targets in preparation for getting converted, because that would be a pretty EZPZ way to win.
But, there is an alternative.
Now, this is still a terrible idea, but a necromancer's zombie is a valid night action target. If there was an Illusionist they could target Jiokuy and redirect him to targets of choice.
The problem is, there's no guarantee that there is one or that they are not already converted or that they are capable of good night killing decisions, and if we knew there was one (because they claimed or something like that) then they would be high priority conversion targets. It would be an unreliable gamble. Maybe not as bad as cutting MOWE loose to ignore our bidding, but an unreliable gamble nonetheless.
I think lynching MOWE is still the best option.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 30, 2014, 09:26:11 am
Yay I was right about IG.
Post by: notquitethere on June 30, 2014, 09:55:21 am
Post by: Mephansteras on June 30, 2014, 10:49:17 am
Meph does the town wincon require just the scum team to be killed, or all threats to town? I.e. if we'd let Jiokuy live until the end, would town have to have killed him as well as the scum team to win?
All threats must be defeated for a town victory.
Post by: zombie urist on June 30, 2014, 10:56:38 am
Really? I'm trying to stay in good humor about replacing in just to die and I'm being scolded.Oh in that case MOWE oppose extend
It was a shitty joke people. I am a necromancer. That's not a joke. The neck romancer is a joke. My favorite joke. Sorry if I tried to give you all a giggle and just made an ass out of myself.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 30, 2014, 10:59:00 am
MyOwnWorstEnemy: TheWetSheep, Jim Groovester, Persus13, Hapah, Toaster, ToonyMan, zombie urist
Hapah: notquitethere
ToonyMan: MyOwnWorstEnemy
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Today
Post by: Toaster on June 30, 2014, 11:07:20 am
Problem 1) A conversion-based scum team. If they convert MOWE, then they can just kill with her every time the town elects their target incorrectly, then misfire when they don't. Then we'd have to lynch MOWE anyway, except after townies are dead.
Problem 2) We're forced to trust a SK. This is someone who wants all the town dead. She will be constantly looking for a way out of this and to screw us over. Again, town cannot win while MOWE lives.
You're going to be hard-pressed to convince me that MOWE isn't the best lynch for today. There MIGHT be a cult, but then are we assuming that a zombie, of all things, caused Jack to burn to a crisp? I think we had a crosskill instead.
Nah, nah, let's lynch MOWE.
Post by: notquitethere on June 30, 2014, 11:14:22 am
We definitely need to kill MOWE at some point, she knows that and has little reason to follow through on any overtures of co-operation. But still, this means we'll wake up on D4 without having touched any of the proper scum team.
If there's a hybrid scum team like last time, we'll be at MYLO tomorrow. Scum converted one night, and will kill tonight (assuming there was only one wizard), bringing us down to 4 scum and five non-scum. If Toony is a scum priest and successfully raised ZU as scum and there's a hybrid team, then we'll have lost: scum will have 5 members, town will have 4. Worst case scenario, this could be a very short and frustrating game of Supernatural.
Post by: notquitethere on June 30, 2014, 11:21:04 am
Look at it another way: who opposes the MOWE lynch? Me. Just me. Maybe Ottofar if he was actually playing, but probably not. I, on my lonesome, do not make up a scum team. Doesn't this unanimity strike anyone else as Bloody Suspicious? Scum see a Necromancer as a threat and if attention is wrapped up with MOWE it's not on them and they get another night of doing whatever the hell they like unmolested.
YES we need to kill the necromancer, but it's way more important that we kill the scum team first.
Post by: Hapah on June 30, 2014, 11:25:19 am
Post by: ToonyMan on June 30, 2014, 11:26:13 am
Toony, do you still think killing a necromancer is more important than killing scum when there could be a cult?Yes. Not even a town vig should be shooting every night. Look at good vig play (my play) in Limerick Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134151.msg4824383#msg4824383). How can we trust a killing third-party role when you can't even rely on a town version? Lynch them.
Here is what I believe:
D1:
Jiokuy the SK Werebear is lynched
N1:
IG resurrected Jiokuy
Jack AT protected the scum team's kill target (he would have been the best conversion target and yet that didn't happen)
D2:
ZU the town sexton is lynched
N2:
Flabort investigated Jiokuy's remains with their sage ability and found necromancer traces
I resurrected ZU back
IG uses his new kill to target Jack
Scum team target Jack
Going over it, I have two questions.
Zombie Urist: Did you get any results Night 1? I forgot if you mentioned it.
Flabort: What were your results Night 1 again?
If there's a hybrid scum team like last time, we'll be at MYLO tomorrow. Scum converted one night, and will kill tonight (assuming there was only one wizard), bringing us down to 4 scum and five non-scum. If Toony is a scum priest and successfully raised ZU as scum and there's a hybrid team, then we'll have lost: scum will have 5 members, town will have 4. Worst case scenario, this could be a very short and frustrating game of Supernatural.This doesn't work in my perspective, since I can honestly say I am a town priest. And I can confidently say that ZU is town still.
There may still be a scum priest, like in one of the past Supernaturals, but if somebody else claims priest now I'm going to be helluva suspicious of them.
Look at it another way: who opposes the MOWE lynch? Me. Just me. Maybe Ottofar if he was actually playing, but probably not. I, on my lonesome, do not make up a scum team. Doesn't this unanimity strike anyone else as Bloody Suspicious? Scum see a Necromancer as a threat and if attention is wrapped up with MOWE it's not on them and they get another night of doing whatever the hell they like unmolested.Or maybe you're a cult leader who hasn't been able to convert anybody!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 30, 2014, 11:33:44 am
I've accepted my loss. I accepted it the moment I replaced in. I you lynch me, that's fine. If you want to use me as a second lynch and kill me later, I'm fine with that too.
Post by: zombie urist on June 30, 2014, 11:58:54 am
Post by: ToonyMan on June 30, 2014, 12:34:27 pm
My zombie didn't kill Jack. Jack was already dead when he got there. There's someone else out there with a kill.What happens to your zombie friend after you die?
Post by: Hapah on June 30, 2014, 12:47:29 pm
Hapah: Thoughts on MOWE? How about NQT?MOWE needs to hang, replacement or not: IG really stepped in it. If he heard Jack explode it was likely his doing, which means at best - at absolute best - he accidentally killed him. I can't believe a word that IG said, and I've got no reason to wipe that slate clean just because there's a different person in the seat. (PPE: Nevermind she's the Necromancer. Gotta lynch it.)
On NQT, it still feels like he knows something I don't. But I'm starting to come to the conclusion that we might just have a disagreement on a fundamental level; and that's not scummy.
Hapah is my top pick for today. His slot has only pressed two cases in the whole game: Tiruin voted Toaster for suggesting 3rd parties side with scum and then votes IG for fakeclaiming priest, and Hapah's been lazily voting IG ever since, D2 and D3. Focusing on 3rd parties is a super scum tell. Having bugger all in the way of cases is a super scum tell. Having cases that make no sense (i.e. Tiruin's) also doesn't help. He's the person we should be lynching.Yeah, and turns out I was right about his claim being BS too. Funny how that works.
We've got a disagreement on a base level. You are playing with the belief (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you win by killing the biggest threat first; the main scum team. Sure, fine. It is my belief that all threats must be eliminated as they appear, you take what the game gives you. I thought IG's claim was a lie; and claimed third parties telling lies are, in my opinion, threats and good lynch targets. He's now a confirmed Necromancer, and so he needs to die. It's not complicated.
Should everyone with their neck in the noose claim SK so that you can try to play puppetmaster? You've got no way to grab the strings, unless you're in a Cult and have conversions left!
If it's a joke, it's not a very funny one. (PPE: Oh I gotcha. The Neck-Romancer was kinda funny, but you really shouldn't have claimed it. Just let it show on the flip, try to make that last-ditch townie appeal)Necromancers can be converted. By Vampire Lords anyway. (See Supernatural 3)
You have to be lynched.
Why are you claiming? You're not playing to your win condition by doing that.
*face palms*
It was a joke... I like dumb jokes and that happens to be one of my favorites since I'm a huge fan of vampires.
A PlanI disagree with this plan not only because it gets me killed, but because you've got no way to ensure that MOWE goes along with it. I mean, really: what world are you living in where MOWE says "Hell no I won't help, kill me now!"
(Extend)
MOWE claims necromancer. We've got a tool: an additional night kill against the probable cult. Let's not throw away that tool before eking as much as we can out of it.
Let's lynch likely-scum Hapah today, and get MOWE to off targets of our choice. If she kills the wrong person, we can just lynch her tomorrow.
I'd like her to kill Toony: worst case, we'll have gotten rid of a spent town player; best case he's scum like I think. Alternatively, Ottofar the Lurker would be an OK target.
What do people think to this?
JimBolded for emphasis. You've got no leverage, unless we live in a magical land where townsfolk and necromancers can get along MOWE has zero incentive to actually work with you.Necromancers can be converted. By Vampire Lords anyway. (See Supernatural 3)I see your point, but from where I stand if she's only going after the NK targets we select, we'd have to be damned unlucky to pick town targets every time. If there's a cult and we lynch MOWE then we can be certain to have one non-cult killed and one non-cult converted. If we get MOWE to do our bidding then we have a chance not only to kill the actual scum team tonight, but also we might hit a second scum with a necro-kill. What do you think to that?
Meph does the town wincon require just the scum team to be killed, or all threats to town? I.e. if we'd let Jiokuy live until the end, would town have to have killed him as well as the scum team to win?
Relying on SKs to act in our interests instead of their own is never a good idea.This. I hadn't even considered the conversion angle.
MOWE cannot be trusted to act according to her part of the plan because acting in the town's interests is not the most expedient way to a victory for her. If I were her, I would feign agreement with our plan, and then kill town targets in preparation for getting converted, because that would be a pretty EZPZ way to win.
Look at it another way: who opposes the MOWE lynch? Me. Just me. Maybe Ottofar if he was actually playing, but probably not. I, on my lonesome, do not make up a scum team. Doesn't this unanimity strike anyone else as Bloody Suspicious? Scum see a Necromancer as a threat and if attention is wrapped up with MOWE it's not on them and they get another night of doing whatever the hell they like unmolested.Scum see MOWE as a threat because they probably die the same as anyone else. Town see MOWE as a threat because we also die the same as anyone else.
Post by: flabort on June 30, 2014, 01:25:56 pm
Night one was dark omens of evil magic. Valli the Wanderer crossed the Mirror forming the Death's Head, meaning dark magic is really strong right now.
Flabort: What were your results Night 1 again?
And if you forgot Night zero, we're sitting in the middle of a big honking ley line. One that people have tried to use for their own ends before.
...these pieces don't fit together. Day 1 does not fit with day 3. My puzzle... it's not right. Something is wrong, something doesn't match up. This does not feel correct. MOWG, this information does not fit. Why would you claim that, even if IG's claim of Exile Mage was a fake claim, it made sense. The pieces of the puzzle fit up, Toaster was cult leader, Jim was second cultist, IG was protector. With this new information marking you as the necromancer, your piece changes shape; it doesn't match up with IG's play towards me, it doesn't match up with Toaster being scum, none of these pieces fit right. I'm going to have to reread everything. MOWG, your flip will be vital information. It will make the pieces fit again, one way or another.
Toaster, while my case on you does not change, my gut feelings on you change if MOWG is the necromancer. However, that leaves me with no target after MOWG. Who do you suggest I focus my scumhunting on? Who would you consider to be most towny, and who would you do the least scumhunting on?
Jim, Toony Same question as Toaster, basically.
Post by: Silthuri on June 30, 2014, 01:39:05 pm
I ran out of ideas. No matter what I said, you guys wouldn't believe me. IG dug a hole I can't get out of. I made my appeal to innocence. Everyone still says I'm a liar. No matter what I say, they'll keep thinking I'm a liar.If it's a joke, it's not a very funny one. (PPE: Oh I gotcha. The Neck-Romancer was kinda funny, but you really shouldn't have claimed it. Just let it show on the flip, try to make that last-ditch townie appeal)Necromancers can be converted. By Vampire Lords anyway. (See Supernatural 3)
You have to be lynched.
Why are you claiming? You're not playing to your win condition by doing that.
*face palms*
It was a joke... I like dumb jokes and that happens to be one of my favorites since I'm a huge fan of vampires.
I have no idea. I would think he dies with me.My zombie didn't kill Jack. Jack was already dead when he got there. There's someone else out there with a kill.What happens to your zombie friend after you die?
Post by: notquitethere on June 30, 2014, 01:55:29 pm
This doesn't work in my perspective, since I can honestly say I am a town priest. And I can confidently say that ZU is town still.It's still MYLO if there's a hybrid team.
Or maybe you're a cult leader who hasn't been able to convert anybody!!No.
Well, there's close to three hours until the end of the day. I think you're collectively making a mistake here and I've explained clearly why I think this. I'm disappointed we've got this far in the game and no useful scum-team flips and you're all set on wasting our momentum for today.
In case I die, here's some rough and ready reads.
If I had to shoot from the hip and get the scum team, I'd say:
Toaster
Toony
Hapah
Possible Flabort as convert (have you read what he's been typing?)
I think ZU, Persus, Jim and Sheep are best candidates for being town.
I liked Ottofar Day 1 and hated him ever since, maybe he's converted, maybe he's just busy, his play has plummeted.
If I die in the night, Hapah or Toaster would be a good bet for Day 4. We're probably screwed now anyway.
Post by: Persus13 on June 30, 2014, 02:45:10 pm
Uh. what? Why are you so certain of these things, or more accurately, why were you so certain about these things? Also, you have a question from me you haven't answered. And why are you buddying Toaster, and asking him who to scumhunt?Night one was dark omens of evil magic. Valli the Wanderer crossed the Mirror forming the Death's Head, meaning dark magic is really strong right now.
Flabort: What were your results Night 1 again?
And if you forgot Night zero, we're sitting in the middle of a big honking ley line. One that people have tried to use for their own ends before.
...these pieces don't fit together. Day 1 does not fit with day 3. My puzzle... it's not right. Something is wrong, something doesn't match up. This does not feel correct. MOWG, this information does not fit. Why would you claim that, even if IG's claim of Exile Mage was a fake claim, it made sense. The pieces of the puzzle fit up, Toaster was cult leader, Jim was second cultist, IG was protector. With this new information marking you as the necromancer, your piece changes shape; it doesn't match up with IG's play towards me, it doesn't match up with Toaster being scum, none of these pieces fit right. I'm going to have to reread everything. MOWG, your flip will be vital information. It will make the pieces fit again, one way or another.
Toaster, while my case on you does not change, my gut feelings on you change if MOWG is the necromancer. However, that leaves me with no target after MOWG. Who do you suggest I focus my scumhunting on? Who would you consider to be most towny, and who would you do the least scumhunting on?
Jim, Toony Same question as Toaster, basically.
Well, there's close to three hours until the end of the day. I think you're collectively making a mistake here and I've explained clearly why I think this. I'm disappointed we've got this far in the game and no useful scum-team flips and you're all set on wasting our momentum for today.Can you provide backup on some of these reads, especially flabort and Toaster?
In case I die, here's some rough and ready reads.
If I had to shoot from the hip and get the scum team, I'd say:
Toaster
Toony
Hapah
Possible Flabort as convert (have you read what he's been typing?)
I think ZU, Persus, Jim and Sheep are best candidates for being town.
I liked Ottofar Day 1 and hated him ever since, maybe he's converted, maybe he's just busy, his play has plummeted.
If I die in the night, Hapah or Toaster would be a good bet for Day 4. We're probably screwed now anyway.
I agree that I'm disappointed that there hasn't been any scum flips yet, but I'm more concerned about the fact that very few people have focused on anything that hasn't been IG/MOWE. No one is trying to get a good foundation for tomorrow going.
Hapah, Jim: You planning on contributing anything today that doesn't have anything to do with IG/MOWE
Toaster, Jim: Why did you drop your case on TWS today?
TWS, Ottofar: You two still here?
ZU, Toony: Who would be your second lynch pic at this point in time if MOWE wasn't a viable lynch?
Post by: zombie urist on June 30, 2014, 02:53:20 pm
If IG is a necromancer, I think we should then look at Persus, TWS, and Toonyman.
Post by: flabort on June 30, 2014, 03:31:22 pm
Uh. what? Why are you so certain of these things, or more accurately, why were you so certain about these things? Also, you have a question from me you haven't answered. And why are you buddying Toaster, and asking him who to scumhunt?I'm not certain of these things, the pieces just don't fit. I'm not buddying Toaster, up until now he's been my prime suspect. But this personality change from MOWG has completely shifted all my gut reads, so I'm asking my three previous top scum picks (Toaster, Jim, and Toony) who they think I should focus on, to better read them and others.
I did not know I had an outstanding question from you. Could you please quote this question?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 30, 2014, 03:40:54 pm
NQT:
How could ZU be town if I'm not?
Post by: ToonyMan on June 30, 2014, 03:41:51 pm
What the heck are you asking?
Post by: flabort on June 30, 2014, 03:43:44 pm
Toaster, while my case on you does not change, my gut feelings on you change if MOWG is the necromancer. However, that leaves me with no target after MOWG. Who do you suggest I focus my scumhunting on? Who would you consider to be most towny, and who would you do the least scumhunting on?Who would you suggest to focus the most scumhunting on? Who is most towny? Who requires the least scumhunting?
Jim, Toony Same question as Toaster, basically.
Post by: Toaster on June 30, 2014, 03:45:51 pm
Look at it another way: who opposes the MOWE lynch? Me. Just me. Maybe Ottofar if he was actually playing, but probably not. I, on my lonesome, do not make up a scum team. Doesn't this unanimity strike anyone else as Bloody Suspicious? Scum see a Necromancer as a threat and if attention is wrapped up with MOWE it's not on them and they get another night of doing whatever the hell they like unmolested.
One, there's WIFOM inherent in the question. Two, Flabort wasn't voting MOWE at the time you said that (though he is now) so it wasn't complete. Three, you could be opposing it to grandstand. Four, scum could be on it just to blend in. Five, it could be in the honest best interest of everyone for a SK to be gone. Six, maybe Toony is scum and they don't want him offed by MOWE.
In short, no, I don't read anything in that.
Flabort:
Toaster, while my case on you does not change, my gut feelings on you change if MOWG is the necromancer. However, that leaves me with no target after MOWG. Who do you suggest I focus my scumhunting on? Who would you consider to be most towny, and who would you do the least scumhunting on?
My old scum reads still stand (NQT, Toony, you, not ZU any more though) so they're a good place to look. That said, I'm not going to hold your hand. You're a big boy; you can find scum on your own.
Persus:
Toaster, Jim: Why did you drop your case on TWS today?
Because we have bigger fish to fry. I'll be revisiting him tomorrow.
Post by: Persus13 on June 30, 2014, 03:52:15 pm
Even though you have vote MOWE again, who would be your secondary choice to this.I'm willing to believe MOWE for now. But one more suspicious act from MyOwnWorstGuardsman (I will use the accronym MOWG for the remainder of the game), and I will return my vote to MOWG in an instant. Thank you for answering those questions.So, if you aren't going to vote IG/MOWE, what's your alternative to that, aka who do you want lynched today, aka who is your current vote? You have a vote for a reason, use it, don't just let it sit unused. Voting is our greatest weapon.
Unvote.
Post by: flabort on June 30, 2014, 03:56:10 pm
My gut has ceased it's jumble and says Toaster again, which is good, but I still feel lost and confused about it.
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 30, 2014, 03:59:58 pm
TWS I did and your reason sucks and is really lazy. Who are the scummiest people in this game and why?Oh, actually, my reasoning is in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5413779#msg5413779). Scummy people are Jim(See 2nd last post D2) and flabort(See above).
Sorry for brevity, I'm sick. Also, Request 4maskwolf Replacement - I'm leaving tomorrow.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 30, 2014, 04:37:59 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 30, 2014, 05:33:53 pm
Night one was dark omens of evil magic. Valli the Wanderer crossed the Mirror forming the Death's Head, meaning dark magic is really strong right now.
Maybe we have an evil wizard scum team. Jack A T getting roasted to a crisp would be in line with this idea.
Toaster, while my case on you does not change, my gut feelings on you change if MOWG is the necromancer. However, that leaves me with no target after MOWG. Who do you suggest I focus my scumhunting on? Who would you consider to be most towny, and who would you do the least scumhunting on?
Jim, Toony Same question as Toaster, basically.
Do your own scumhunting.
IG/MOWE being a necromancer and also not being responsible for Jack A T's kill clarifies things somewhat, so I'll probably be returning to my reads and cases on TheWetSheep/4maskwolf and Persus13. You can look there if you want to be lazy and untownlike.
Hapah, Jim: You planning on contributing anything today that doesn't have anything to do with IG/MOWE
I would have liked to but the day is quickly running out and I won't have the time.
Toaster, Jim: Why did you drop your case on TWS today?
Because IG happened.
I still think MOWE is lying. Being a necromancer makes no sense looking at IG's actions and claims D1. Also, that's a whole lot of flavour to come up with. Which means that there's a pretty big chance that flabort is sinister as well.
Who fakeclaims necromancer?
Really, who fakeclaims necromancer?
It's a tragedy you're replacing out because I won't get your explanation to this question.
Who fucking fakeclaims necromancer?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 30, 2014, 06:27:43 pm
MyOwnWorstEnemy: TheWetSheep, flabort, Jim Groovester, Persus13, Hapah, Toaster, ToonyMan, zombie urist
Hapah: notquitethere
ToonyMan: MyOwnWorstEnemy
There seems to be little disargreement about who to select this day.
MyOwnWorstEnemy steps forward, a sneer on her face. "Do what you wish, Priest. Your petty gods can only stop me for a time!"
The High Priest scowls at her and draws the symbol of Justice upon her brow. "They will punsish you for such blasphemy!"
She stands there looking expectant for a moment, and then her eyes turn white. Her mouth opens up into a silent scream for a few moment, and then she crumples to the ground. She seems...deflated a bit, as if the substance of her soul is gone with her life.
The High Priest looks grimly down at her body. "A Necromancer for sure. The gods will met out appropriate justice to one who corrupts the natural laws in such a way. She shall not have the vengeance she seeks." He turns to face the rest of you.
"Another threat down. But a greater threat still looms. May the gods keep you safe this night."
Again the compulsion grips you, and you return to your homes.
Night has fallen, send in your actions!
4maskwolf, I'll send you the Night Action PMs that you missed while TheWetSheep was covering for you so you can take over for Night 3.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2014, 12:35:49 pm
The High Priest looks grim. "His body was found, burned to ash and bones. The same way that Jack died."
"He was a heathen, it is true, a Lone Witch practicing a nearly dead religion. Be he was a good man, for all of that, and I fear we will miss his council in the days to come."
"Find whoever or whatever is doing this!"
Day 4 has started. I will be out on a camping trip starting Thursday afternoon and won't be back until Monday night, so it will go until ~4pm Pacific Tuesday
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 02, 2014, 12:52:12 pm
ZU: do you still have sexton powers? What happened at the graveyard, if anything?
Everyone: I have a claim to make. There are nine players left in the game, and I can clear at least two of the other players right now.
I am a town seer. Night one Sheepy inspected Toaster, who revealed benign intent towards the town. Him, I'm not sure of being cleared, but if there are no cults this game (and massive burns would indicate the lack of a formal cult, but instead some other scum team) then he is in the clear.
Next night, sheepy investigated Toonyman: benign intent.
Last night, I investigated NQT: benign intent.
If you want, I am willing to be lynched to prove this.
As to my strategy: I found myself in possession of a town investigative role. In order to keep myself from being scumkilled, I intentionally drew attention to myself. Not enough attention that I would be lynched for my behavior, but just enough that the scum would not choose me as the target for their nightkills.
I think it worked out quite admirably.
Thank you, and goodbye.
Oh, and Persus13.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 02, 2014, 12:55:10 pm
There are nine players left. I do not believe there is a cult, so there are four (including myself) confirmed townies. ZU is probably not scum and likely town-sided, so no vote going in that direction. Which leaves four players. If we mislynch today, it is LYLO tomorrow, so we can afford to lynch them all one by one and see which one isn't scum.
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2014, 01:44:06 pm
Flabort: any new information?Indeedilydoody, neighboroony.
I wanted to find out why Jack was burnt to a crisp, according to my ability. I "swam through a sea" of information, myriad books and texts. As I made connections between various journals and scraps, my heart apparently sank.
The only explanation is a Dark Magus (This was bolded in my PM), a person of "considerable power", who presumably doesn't have town's best interests at heart.
I then don't sleep very well, because while I know my enemy, I may not be able to face someone of that great power.
So this leads me to believe that our scum team is one really strong person, or one strong person and their weak lackey. This is probably not a cult, no. This is, however, a new team for Supernatural, I believe, true to the guesses from the charred corpse.
Toaster, assuming 4mask is telling the truth, you are safe. Sorry for suspecting you.
4mask I don't count as confirmed? OK, I guess not, but I guess this means I have to work harder to maintain your trust.
More in a few minutes.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 02, 2014, 01:55:49 pm
Cool. Because we've eliminated most likely all of the third-party killing roles, the scum team have to reveal their hand. I believe ZU and Flabort are town too so that leaves:
Persus13, Hapah, and Ottofar as our scum team. Anybody have any problems with this? Specifically, the people I'm accusing.
Post by: zombie urist on July 02, 2014, 02:03:50 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 02, 2014, 02:06:58 pm
There was no kill on N1, so some form of Charismatic Cult seems dangerously possible. That means we need to lynch scum today or lose. I'm not sure whether to believe Wolf's claim just yet (I find Toaster and Toony very suspicious), can anyone corroborate this? Any other info roles out there to shed some light on this?
There's a lot I want to say and respond to here: full follow up coming when I get to a computer.
Post by: zombie urist on July 02, 2014, 02:12:54 pm
I have a bad feeling...
Wait the dark Magus is only 1 person. Hmm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 02, 2014, 02:13:47 pm
A one-shot conversion is also possible, but then that means we'd only have to watch out for Toaster. We can force him to claim if we have to.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 02, 2014, 02:33:12 pm
In order for your theory to be correct, then the cult would have to be me, Flabort, and quite probably the two people you find suspicious. However, this implies that Flabort just came up with information for us every day on the fly and used it to connect back into the game. I highly doubt this, and as such am inclined to save Flabort for last if we lynch everyone else and they are not scum.
I believe that Jack blocked the N1 kill, or that the dark magus has the power to pseudo-cult (taking an apprentice?). If the dark magus can do culty things N1, then we can't take Toaster for granted as safe. HOWEVER, the dark magus will be one of the four people who have yet to be revealed.
There is another theory I have, though I'm not sure how much credence to lend to it. Would it be possible to have a scumteam made up of entirely of disparate third-party killers, meph?
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2014, 02:44:27 pm
If the dark magus can do culty things N1, then we can't take Toaster for granted as safe. HOWEVER, the dark magus will be one of the four people who have yet to be revealed.I find it likely that the Dark Magus does have some sort of apprentice or assistant. It may be that they started the game with it, though, and do not have a convert. It may be that they do, though.
Wait the dark Magus is only 1 person. HmmYes, my power mentioned one person. But it didn't mention whether that one person was likely to be working with anyone else or not. Let's give it a 65% chance, to ballpark it.
I'm not sure whether to believe Wolf's claim just yet (I find Toaster and Toony very suspicious), can anyone corroborate this?I'm not completely convinced either, but I'm willing to. I felt them suspicious before, too, but if 4mask is right it makes the puzzle pieces all fit mostly right.
I'm building a list of reads right now, but from the information in it, I'm going to vote Hapah. And Ottofar is still absent.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2014, 02:53:39 pm
Would it be possible to have a scumteam made up of entirely of disparate third-party killers, meph?
Yes. However, they would still flip as all being part of a team as opposed to showing up as serial killers.
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 02, 2014, 03:20:17 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 02, 2014, 03:29:04 pm
So what you're saying is that the SK Werebear wouldn't have a team, but the Necromancer may have allies?Would it be possible to have a scumteam made up of entirely of disparate third-party killers, meph?Yes. However, they would still flip as all being part of a team as opposed to showing up as serial killers.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2014, 03:33:03 pm
So what you're saying is that the SK Werebear wouldn't have a team, but the Necromancer may have allies?Would it be possible to have a scumteam made up of entirely of disparate third-party killers, meph?Yes. However, they would still flip as all being part of a team as opposed to showing up as serial killers.
No, they were both serial killers. I'd put SK next to the werebear to show it wasn't a town or scum role. I can stick SK next to the Necromancer as well, though, for clarity.
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2014, 03:38:51 pm
Toony Claimed Priest. Declared town by 4mask. Was right about MOWG being Necro, as was Jim.
Earlier attacks towards 4mask and ZU, IG day 3. Contradicted by IG, but IG was SK.
Almost garunteed town.
Flabort Claimed Sage. Is super nice and super town.
Persus Pointed out there can be evil Mages. Hardly damning, but relevant to my power's most recent information. Doesn't think me capable of good flavor (won me my first ever game, though).
Seems to be well reasoned during Day 3. I can't count the number of times someone has replied "that's true" to him.
Seems pretty town to me.
NQT Declared town by 4mask. Suspects Toony and Toaster. Except defended toaster day 3 due to Toaster not voting IG?
Prevented Persus from lynching ZU a second time. Paranoid about a cult, justified from past experience. Defended MOWG to a degree.
Probably town? Seems suspicious now. Huh.
Tiruin/Hapah Hapah is usually at work. Never understood IG's fakeclaim.
Seemed to know that MOWE would never actually cooperate with town, and that she's a threat to scum. OK, obvious points, but they feel odd. Seems a bit lazy, but not very.
Probably scum.
Toaster Declared town by 4mask. I previously suspected him of being scum, but my gut was thrown off him for reasons I do not understand when MOWE claimed. Less gut suspision when 4mask claimed, too.
Brought up possibility of cross kill. Didn't want to trust a SK. Maybe converted.
Seems town right now, unless he was converted.
ZU Claimed Sexton. Resurected by Toony. Said she needs to rethink everything, reviving her was a bad idea. Says its because she's been useless.
Maybe a little vague but nowhere near IG's level of useless. Posts are short but to the point. Makes sense, instead of confusing matters.
Believable town.
4mask/TWS/4mask Claimed Seer. Staking life on claim. As WetSheep, seemed lazy, but tried not bo be. Voted IG for purposes of a flip being better than nothing.
I used to be confident in their townyness and still am.
Ottofar Completely dissapeared.
So probably scum.
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2014, 04:11:55 pm
Persus13 As one of the people who doesn't have a claim or is not protected by 4mask's claim, you are apparently one of the suspects. If you had a kill right now, who would you kill next? If you had a protect, who would you protect next? What are your current reads?
Hapah If you were to control the lynch today, where would you direct it?
NQT What does your collection of reads tell you right now? What are your own reads at this time?
Post by: ToonyMan on July 02, 2014, 04:25:10 pm
ToonyMan - Town Priest
flabort - Town Sage
Persus13 - ???
notquitethere - ???
Hapah - ???
Toaster - ???
zombie urist - Town Sexton
4maskwolf - Town Seer
Ottofar - ???
I don't believe there's more than 3 scum at most left, and they should all be part of this scum team. I think everybody who's claimed so far can be believed with the most suspicious being Flabort.
Scum
Ottofar - Zero commitment. Talk.
Persus13 - Weird behavior and questions, would like them to talk.
Hapah - Posts seem okay enough, if they're scum they're the most competent player they have. Mainly labeling them scum from process of elimination.
Middle Ground
Flabort - Giving us useful information, pretty sure they're town.
Toaster - Town inspected by 4mask N1, could have changed by now.
Town
4maskwolf - I believe their claim, the "you can lynch me to prove it" line being quite genuine.
Notquitethere - Town inspected by 4mask N3.
Zombie Urist - I'm confident my revive worked.
Post by: notquitethere on July 02, 2014, 06:05:38 pm
Wolf
In order for your theory to be correct, then the cult would have to be me, Flabort, and quite probably the two people you find suspicious. However, this implies that Flabort just came up with information for us every day on the fly and used it to connect back into the game. I highly doubt this, and as such am inclined to save Flabort for last if we lynch everyone else and they are not scum.I didn't say anything about Flabort. I think they're probably relaying legitimate information. There obviously is a magic themed foe in our midst. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a one-shot conversion.
If the dark magus can do culty things N1, then we can't take Toaster for granted as safe. HOWEVER, the dark magus will be one of the four people who have yet to be revealed.If I trust you, sure. I'm just worried that we are at LYLO and this is a clever scum ruse to force a final mislynch and bring the game on home. It would be exactly the kind of gambit a Toony-Wolf-Toaster team would come up with. There's so much I need to look back over, and so little time.
Flabort
I wanted to find out why Jack was burnt to a crisp, according to my ability. I "swam through a sea" of information, myriad books and texts. As I made connections between various journals and scraps, my heart apparently sank.We were informed that there would be a new element and this is compatible. Scum teams often have a leader figure and several lackeys. I believe your info is probably legit.
The only explanation is a Dark Magus (This was bolded in my PM), a person of "considerable power", who presumably doesn't have town's best interests at heart.
I then don't sleep very well, because while I know my enemy, I may not be able to face someone of that great power.
So this leads me to believe that our scum team is one really strong person, or one strong person and their weak lackey. This is probably not a cult, no. This is, however, a new team for Supernatural, I believe, true to the guesses from the charred corpse.
Toaster, assuming 4mask is telling the truth, you are safe. Sorry for suspecting you.This toadying makes me nervous.
4mask I don't count as confirmed? OK, I guess not, but I guess this means I have to work harder to maintain your trust.
NQT What does your collection of reads tell you right now? What are your own reads at this time?I need to take time to go over things. I already said how I felt about everyone yesterday, I want to believe Wolf's claim: it'd make our job like shooting fish in a barrel. But my trust doesn't so readily pour forth. It feels too easy.
Except defended toaster day 3 due to Toaster not voting IG?That's a misreading of what I was saying. I was saying IG was very unlikely to be scum given that only one person (Toaster) had never voted for him. And I was right. That doesn't say anything about Toaster.
ZU
NQT if you believe this to be lylo why aren't you pushing for a massclam?I believe it might be. I'm still working things out. I want to sleep on this, but some kind of co-ordinated claiming is probably what we want to do.
Toony
I've mentioned this a lot, but it's possible that Jack AT blocked the N1 kill.Do you think Jack would have discerned a player N1 and protected them?
A one-shot conversion is also possible, but then that means we'd only have to watch out for Toaster. We can force him to claim if we have to.Your utter conviction in this makes me suspicious.
I don't believe there's more than 3 scum at most left, and they should all be part of this scum team. I think everybody who's claimed so far can be believed with the most suspicious being Flabort.Roles might be believed but not alignments. It all hinges on whether Wolf is scum and there's only one way of finding that out.
Post by: Hapah on July 02, 2014, 06:16:19 pm
Persus13, Hapah, and Ottofar as our scum team. Anybody have any problems with this? Specifically, the people I'm accusing.Are you asking if the accused have any problems with it, or if anyone else has problems with who you are accusing? Assuming the latter but wanted to check, since the former is rather obvious, lol.
There was no kill on N1, so some form of Charismatic Cult seems dangerously possible.
I've mentioned this a lot, but it's possible that Jack AT blocked the N1 kill.Both are definitely possible; but I feel that the difference is mostly academic at this point (unless we get some sort of smoking gun, like a player being tracked visiting someone N1 who ends up flipping cult and the visitor doesn't have an alibi). I very much doubt a full blown cult (2 SK's + another killer + full Cult doesn't seem very plausible), but a 1-shot could definitely be in the cards.
That means we need to lynch scum today or lose.I don't think there's any way the game ends today/tonight. That'd require the setup to be something like 7 (or 8-1, converted) town/4 (or 3+1, convert) scum/2 SK's, right? That doesn't seem balanced to me.
Notquitethere:I don't think people lose their roles when they get converted, though, which would make flabort a very interesting conversion choice since he claimed D1. Not a very powerful role for a cult but he'd be hard to get lynched.
In order for your theory to be correct, then the cult would have to be me, Flabort, and quite probably the two people you find suspicious. However, this implies that Flabort just came up with information for us every day on the fly and used it to connect back into the game. I highly doubt this, and as such am inclined to save Flabort for last if we lynch everyone else and they are not scum.
Hapah If you were to control the lynch today, where would you direct it?I want to make sure that I've got the big picture right before I answer that. Ottofar would be easy but I don't think he'd be a good choice, and flabort has provided good Sage info. So I guess Persus? But the team has to be at least two, and if it's any 3 or any 2-man team other than Persus/Ottofar then something fishy is going on (flabort convert or sneaky play, Toaster convert, 4mask being scum, something like that). But the little bit of digging I did makes 4mask's claims seem genuine enough (he didn't look at Ottofar N1 even though he was voting him at day end, but since Otto was lurking I could understand that and probably would have done a similar play myself. He was voting Toony at end of D2 and claims he investigated him that night, which is exactly what you'd expect).
Anyone: So Sages essentially return town/not-town? A Town Vig would return benign but a Scum Vig would return non-benign? Am I interpreting that correctly? Can scum inspect as benign?
So if 4mask is on the up-and-up, then NQT/Toony (+ZU by extension of revive) are town, and Toaster is probably town unless you put stock in a convert (and even if you do, there are better targets). That'd leave flabort/Persus/me/Ottofar as possible scummies, with an outside chance of Toaster.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 02, 2014, 06:32:09 pm
As I've said, I'm willing to hand myself over to whatever fate you would wish on me in order to prove my claims. I do not believe we are at LYLO today, so lynching me would not be the worst thing that has happened in a game.
NQT: you know the reason why I inspected you? Because I was sure you were scum. You were arguing to keep a necromancer alive with a scumteam of unknown size and abilities in play. I was going to announce two confirmed town and one confirmed scum this morning.
And then you came back town.
The game is late enough that the town cannot be fighting amongst itself. If you need proof of my claims, lynch me: I won't resist. But we can't have a divided town this late in the game.
I believe that Persus13 should be the first player to go because, other than Ottofar the lurker, he reads the most scummy to me. As such, he should be the one we off first.
This is likely my last day regardless, but I hope that the information I have provided will lead to a town victory after my demise.
That's about all I have to say for today. If anyone has any specific questions they want to ask me, I will of course answer them.
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2014, 06:35:03 pm
*hugs*
This is likely my last day regardless, but I hope that the information I have provided will lead to a town victory after my demise.
...Hopefully this isn't out-of-mafia o-o
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 02, 2014, 06:36:42 pm
LOLZ no I wouldn't be posting that if it actually was, I would be posting a replacement request. I meant in game.*hugs*
This is likely my last day regardless, but I hope that the information I have provided will lead to a town victory after my demise.
...Hopefully this isn't out-of-mafia o-o
Post by: ToonyMan on July 02, 2014, 07:12:06 pm
It would be a clever gambit, but from my perspective it's impossible.If the dark magus can do culty things N1, then we can't take Toaster for granted as safe. HOWEVER, the dark magus will be one of the four people who have yet to be revealed.If I trust you, sure. I'm just worried that we are at LYLO and this is a clever scum ruse to force a final mislynch and bring the game on home. It would be exactly the kind of gambit a Toony-Wolf-Toaster team would come up with. There's so much I need to look back over, and so little time.
ToonyYes.I've mentioned this a lot, but it's possible that Jack AT blocked the N1 kill.Do you think Jack would have discerned a player N1 and protected them?
I'll concede that our scum team could have a one-shot convert at most, if they used it signs all point to it being N1. This would mean that Toaster is the only possible candidate, not you or me. Your suspicion of me has been wasted since the game started.A one-shot conversion is also possible, but then that means we'd only have to watch out for Toaster. We can force him to claim if we have to.Your utter conviction in this makes me suspicious.
Also, I am not suspecting a 4mask-NQT-Toaster scum team at all, wouldn't that be a similar situation?
Wolf is probably town. I'm not against lynching him to confirm his alignment, but I'm not going to push that lynch.I don't believe there's more than 3 scum at most left, and they should all be part of this scum team. I think everybody who's claimed so far can be believed with the most suspicious being Flabort.Roles might be believed but not alignments. It all hinges on whether Wolf is scum and there's only one way of finding that out.
@Hapah:
@Persus13: Are you okay with being lynched via process of elimination? Have any analysis to give?Persus13, Hapah, and Ottofar as our scum team. Anybody have any problems with this? Specifically, the people I'm accusing.Are you asking if the accused have any problems with it, or if anyone else has problems with who you are accusing? Assuming the latter but wanted to check, since the former is rather obvious, lol.
@Hapah: Are you okay with being lynched via process of elimination? Have any analysis to give?
@Ottofar: Are you okay with being lynched via process of elimination? Have any analysis to give?
@4maskwolf:
NQT: you know the reason why I inspected you? Because I was sure you were scum. You were arguing to keep a necromancer alive with a scumteam of unknown size and abilities in play. I was going to announce two confirmed town and one confirmed scum this morning.Yeah, I have to admit that's pretty surprising. I think NQT is being too paranoid. But I'll believe your inspect. All of your inspect choices seem legit (there could be an Illusionist but arrugh).
And then you came back town.
Persus13 does seem like a good lynch since he's been around to answer questions, what say you?
Post by: ToonyMan on July 02, 2014, 07:12:49 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 02, 2014, 07:15:22 pm
I think you're informed if you're redirected anyway?Me? I would assume so. I get the name of the person each time.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 02, 2014, 07:18:35 pm
Good.I think you're informed if you're redirected anyway?Me? I would assume so. I get the name of the person each time.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2014, 07:35:16 pm
Persus13: 4maskwolf, ToonyMan
Hapah: flabort
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Tuesday
Post by: zombie urist on July 03, 2014, 02:44:25 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 03, 2014, 04:14:41 am
Meph, is Otto going to be replaced?
Hapah
I don't think there's any way the game ends today/tonight. That'd require the setup to be something like 7 (or 8-1, converted) town/4 (or 3+1, convert) scum/2 SK's, right? That doesn't seem balanced to me.My specific worry was a scum team of three including Toony with a scum-converting resurrection and a one-shot convert. This is the same set-up as the previous Supernatural and would mean 5 scum. But now that I've slept I realise that can't be the case because they'd already outnumber us, so either there wasn't a one-shot conversion or Toony isn't scum.
Anyone: So Sages essentially return town/not-town? A Town Vig would return benign but a Scum Vig would return non-benign? Am I interpreting that correctly? Can scum inspect as benign?That looks right. Re-read the action PMs of the previous gmes if you ever have these kinds of questions.
So if 4mask is on the up-and-up, then NQT/Toony (+ZU by extension of revive) are town, and Toaster is probably town unless you put stock in a convert (and even if you do, there are better targets). That'd leave flabort/Persus/me/Ottofar as possible scummies, with an outside chance of Toaster.Are you going to claim today Hapah? As you correctly summise, your head is on the block.
Toony
I'll concede that our scum team could have a one-shot convert at most, if they used it signs all point to it being N1. This would mean that Toaster is the only possible candidate, not you or me. Your suspicion of me has been wasted since the game started.OK, in the light of day I realise where you were going with the Toaster thing. I realise I was miscounting the number of people left alive. If you were scum, then neccessarily ZU would be as well, and if there was a conversion AND you were a scum priest then scum would have already won. And I think I trust Hapah even less, so I think Wolf is legit, and so by extension, you, ZU and Toaster and myself would all be poor lynch candidates for today.
Also, I am not suspecting a 4mask-NQT-Toaster scum team at all, wouldn't that be a similar situation?
Yeah, I have to admit that's pretty surprising. I think NQT is being too paranoid.13 consecutive losses in a game will do that. At the end of the last Supernatural game I never wanted to play this game again.
Wolf
NQT: you know the reason why I inspected you? Because I was sure you were scum. You were arguing to keep a necromancer alive with a scumteam of unknown size and abilities in play. I was going to announce two confirmed town and one confirmed scum this morning.I can understand why you'd inspect me, though hopefully you can also understand why I was arguing for MOWE to live. Hapah's nonplussed reaction to your claim is beginning to seal it for me.
And then you came back town.
ZU
In the more reasonable light of morning, I've decide it probably isn't LYLO: Meph will have balanced this game with two SK kills in mind, so the scum team probably started smaller if it had a one-shot convert, or it couldn't convert at all. If we mislynch today then I'll definitely claim tomorrow, but I'll be very disappointed if we mislynch today.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 03, 2014, 08:42:02 am
Meph, is Otto going to be replaced?
Otto has been prodded, but I'm leaving on a camping trip in a few hours, so I don't have time to deal with trying to find a replacement. Hopefully he'll show up and participate while I'm gone.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 03, 2014, 08:51:53 am
We may be facing a mentor (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mentor) type role.
Why do I believe this?
There was no kill night one, leading to the conclusion of at least a pseudo-cult. I was also trying to determine how a one-man scumteam could be effective, and that would likely be the best one-man team that wasn't a full cult.
If I'm right, there's good news and bad news. The good news is that we would only need one lynch to end the game. The bad news is that lynching the apprentice or whatever would nullify all of my action results.
As such, I change my vote to Hapah, because I get a cult-leaderesque vibe from him.
Post by: notquitethere on July 03, 2014, 09:18:06 am
Post by: Hapah on July 03, 2014, 11:25:53 am
I slept on it and I realised that Wolf fake-claiming Seer would be really dumb as it's highly susceptible to being counterclaimed. -snip-I was about to ask how so, but did throw it out first post of the day. So unless scum are confident that there are no other Seers (and how could they be?) it's a very risky play.
I'd love to, but time is something I don't have much of these days. (And big thanks to everyone who is answering these questions, by the way)Anyone: So Sages essentially return town/not-town? A Town Vig would return benign but a Scum Vig would return non-benign? Am I interpreting that correctly? Can scum inspect as benign?That looks right. Re-read the action PMs of the previous gmes if you ever have these kinds of questions.
Let me think on it a little, but I don't think it's a good idea as it doesn't really contribute anything and would just be a distraction.So if 4mask is on the up-and-up, then NQT/Toony (+ZU by extension of revive) are town, and Toaster is probably town unless you put stock in a convert (and even if you do, there are better targets). That'd leave flabort/Persus/me/Ottofar as possible scummies, with an outside chance of Toaster.Are you going to claim today Hapah? As you correctly summise, your head is on the block.
PPE:
4mask: You could be right about the Mentor, Meph did say there would be something new this game. Your reads would still have value though, as those you've inspected can't be the mentor. You can't discount wizards/knights, though. And why does the scumteam have to start as one man?
NQT: I didn't read Tir's D1 posts, and I pushed IG because I thought his claim was bunk. I'm gonna sit on people that I think are scum, safe target or not.
Post by: flabort on July 03, 2014, 12:33:14 pm
If this is true, though, you say that lynching the apprentice nullifies all your results. I would argue not. We still only have 5 people including ZU and myself, 3 if you don't, who are suspect of being the Mentor. 6/4 if you are looking for the Mentee, because you'd need to include Toaster. But lynching the Mentor wins the game. So we have 3 targets. Hapah, Ottofar, Persus. If we lynch one and it turns out to be the Mentee, well, yeah, any of us could become the new mentee the next night, but one of the other two original three targets still has to be the Mentor.
So let's consider the Mentee to be a town player until the Mentor dies. At which point, if the Mentee doesn't die with them, we can hunt the Mentee, or if it does and we still haven't won, we have another SK or other threat still.
TL;DR Logically, lynching the apprentice should not nullify reads of who the Mentor is.
Hapah He thinks the scum team is one person, because my power result only mentioned one person. The Dark Magus. It didn't mention whether he had team mates or not, but it seems possible that he did not have any. But it seems equally likely from analysis of the flavor that he might have a minion. Also, there were two SKs to balance against. Therefor, 4mask's presentation of the possibility of the Dark Magus being a Mentor is genius; it makes perfect sense.
What do you mean claiming would just be a distraction? Are you a third party? Would you fake claim? We're telling you to claim to save your life.
Also, 4mask claimed seer, not sage like you said. I'm the sage. Seers return town/not-town. Other than that, you seem to be interpreting it right.
ZU What is giving you bad feelings about NQT? What makes you suspect Persus over Hapah or Ottofar?
NQT While I suspect Hapah most right now too, What makes you suspect Hapah over Ottofar or Persus?
Post by: Toaster on July 03, 2014, 01:00:01 pm
4mask: Why didn't you inspected ZU?
Speaking of ZU, if there is a one-shot convert, we know he didn't do it, regardless of his current alignment. (Which I'd put at above-average likelihood of town.)
NQT:
I slept on it and I realised that Wolf fake-claiming Seer would be really dumb as it's highly susceptible to being counterclaimed.
How do you figure? Given that there are almost certainly no third parties left (and Seer just sees good/bad anyway) it'd be easy to fabricate claims.
Anyway, I think I saw some calls for me to claim, and I'm okay with that.
I am a Thief. I can track or watch people.
N1 I watched Flabort. IG's claim pointed him strongly out as a town role and that bad things might happen with IG if Flabort died, so I figured him as a good target for scum, kill or convert. No one visited him.
N2 I tracked ToonyMan. I still wasn't sure what to think of him, so I wanted to see what he was up to. He indeed visited Zombie U's grave. I didn't see the need to mention this to vouch for him since no one believed IG anyway.
N3 I tracked TWS/4mask. Like I said, I'd be revisiting him. I was hoping to catch him burning someone, but instead he stayed home all night, which is consistent with a Seer's ability (they don't leave home to use it.) It's not confirmation of his ability (or alignment) but it's consistent.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 03, 2014, 03:59:50 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 03, 2014, 07:43:48 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 04, 2014, 05:44:20 am
NQT While I suspect Hapah most right now too, What makes you suspect Hapah over Ottofar or Persus?Less cases + poor case choice = scummier.
Toaster
How do you figure? Given that there are almost certainly no third parties left (and Seer just sees good/bad anyway) it'd be easy to fabricate claims.Only if you tell the truth about everyone: if you're saying people are good when they're bad and a real seer gets a negative inspect result, then they'd call them out on it.
With you and Wolf claiming inspect-style roles, we should co-ordinate your night targets: for instance, if we kill Hapah today, you should track Persus, and Wolf should investigate Ottofar.
Persus, the votes on you rest on a process of elimination thing, given that people are deciding to believe Wolf's inspection claim. If you're claiming not to be scum then essentially you've got to say why you think Wolf is lying or you've got to argue that the scum team is smaller than three people. The burden is on you. You're up for the chop here, so you should claim.
Post by: Hapah on July 04, 2014, 12:37:41 pm
Hapah He thinks the scum team is one person, because my power result only mentioned one person. The Dark Magus. It didn't mention whether he had team mates or not, but it seems possible that he did not have any. But it seems equally likely from analysis of the flavor that he might have a minion. Also, there were two SKs to balance against. Therefor, 4mask's presentation of the possibility of the Dark Magus being a Mentor is genius; it makes perfect sense.Yeah, I can see that.
What do you mean claiming would just be a distraction? Are you a third party? Would you fake claim? We're telling you to claim to save your life.Oh no, nothing like that, I just have a pretty good idea of how it'd end up. And I sincerely hope you don't believe the bolded part, nobody's trying to save my life.
NQT:On reflection, if the Seer is the convert it's a rather safe play to claim some results. What are the odds that there would be two?I slept on it and I realised that Wolf fake-claiming Seer would be really dumb as it's highly susceptible to being counterclaimed.How do you figure? Given that there are almost certainly no third parties left (and Seer just sees good/bad anyway) it'd be easy to fabricate claims.
How would you (or more specifically, I) even go about trying to refute the Seer's results, though? I've got no angle to try to contest; so I've gotta accept his results since I can do nothing to contest them. NQT summed it up in his latest post rather well.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 04, 2014, 12:44:46 pm
Everyone move your votes over to Hapah and then wait, I guess.
Post by: flabort on July 04, 2014, 12:45:01 pm
I didn't say that for the reasons of saving your life that we're telling you to claim: I said that we're telling you to claim, because if you don't, you're going to die. You'd be saving your life if you claim. Are you saying that you aren't trying to save your life?What do you mean claiming would just be a distraction? Are you a third party? Would you fake claim? We're telling you to claim to save your life.Oh no, nothing like that, I just have a pretty good idea of how it'd end up. And I sincerely hope you don't believe the bolded part, nobody's trying to save my life.
Are you saying that no matter what you claim, we're going to lynch you anyways?
Post by: Hapah on July 04, 2014, 01:02:24 pm
I'm saying that I'm between a rock and a hard place: if I don't claim looks like I'm gonna die, and if I do claim what I am I have my doubts that anyone would believe it, which also likely leaves me with a bad case of being dead.I didn't say that for the reasons of saving your life that we're telling you to claim: I said that we're telling you to claim, because if you don't, you're going to die. You'd be saving your life if you claim. Are you saying that you aren't trying to save your life?What do you mean claiming would just be a distraction? Are you a third party? Would you fake claim? We're telling you to claim to save your life.Oh no, nothing like that, I just have a pretty good idea of how it'd end up. And I sincerely hope you don't believe the bolded part, nobody's trying to save my life.
Are you saying that no matter what you claim, we're going to lynch you anyways?
How about this, then. I would not ask NQT to claim (since if you choose to believe 4mask [not saying you shouldn't, make up your own mind there], there's no reason to rush his claim), but I will claim AFTER Persus claims (would ask Ottofar to as well, but he's not around). I will also tell you that my role is not listed in the role list in this thread, to hem myself in a bit so that I can't take advantage.
Alright, I guess we have it all planned out. Lynch Hapah today, I inspect Ottofar and Toaster tracks Persus. If either of us dies and the other turns up a negative, we know who the converter is.Ease up off the trigger there, boss. We've got all weekend, and I'm not done yet!
Everyone move your votes over to Hapah and then wait, I guess.
Post by: Toaster on July 04, 2014, 01:11:37 pm
Hapah:
NQT:On reflection, if the Seer is the convert it's a rather safe play to claim some results. What are the odds that there would be two?I slept on it and I realised that Wolf fake-claiming Seer would be really dumb as it's highly susceptible to being counterclaimed.How do you figure? Given that there are almost certainly no third parties left (and Seer just sees good/bad anyway) it'd be easy to fabricate claims.
How would you (or more specifically, I) even go about trying to refute the Seer's results, though? I've got no angle to try to contest; so I've gotta accept his results since I can do nothing to contest them. NQT summed it up in his latest post rather well.
Probably low odds.
There isn't any way except to see roleflips or the claim of another seer/oracle. And anyway, the scum team knows who is and isn't on their team, so seer results should be easy to fake.
Post by: flabort on July 04, 2014, 01:12:22 pm
Persus claim so that we can get Hapah to claim.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 04, 2014, 01:17:47 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 04, 2014, 01:45:29 pm
Post by: Hapah on July 04, 2014, 02:36:08 pm
Hapah who do you think is the dark magus?Has to be one of Ottofar or Persus, if the Seer is to be believed. If it's not one of them we're well and truly screwed anyway.
Ottofar hasn't posted enough for me to have any ammo to use against him, but I'd like to see Persus's claim. Have to run atm though.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 04, 2014, 02:50:42 pm
Post by: Hapah on July 04, 2014, 04:42:06 pm
Yeah, now I'm all ears to hear Hapah claim.
Your role isn't on the role list, eh Hapah? Claims will be good.Don't get too excited, it's nothing crazy. But I want Persus to claim first.
If you were the Dark Magus, how would you plan on getting out of this situation?Well, I've given it a little though. If I was the Magus and we accept that he has a convert, then one of Ottofar/Persus/flabort would likely be my minion: can't be anyone investigated by 4mask if he's not my minion, and if he was I would've made him include me in the "good guy" list. Toaster couldn't be it because I would have made him claim seeing someone visit Jim after 4mask's claim got me into this spot to give me an easy out.
I'd need to claim something that leaves their house (since there's good odds that the claimed Thief would watch me tonight or see me visiting, and I assume Magus has to leave his home to convert/kill). It'd either need to be a "red herring" kind of role (like a Werewolf Hunter with no Werewolves, think I saw that mentioned once) since I wouldn't have anything to report, or claim my minion's role and all their information. If the Magus team is only 2 then I'd probably be screwed no matter what, if Magus team is 3 I might be able to cause enough confusion to hang on. Maybe bus my minion as a last resort, but when a night passed without a kill it'd be easy to put the pieces together and I'd be living on borrowed time. And I'd probably end up eating a track/inspect anyway.
Post by: Hapah on July 04, 2014, 04:44:51 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 04, 2014, 08:04:20 pm
Then why aren't you voting either one of them?Hapah who do you think is the dark magus?Has to be one of Ottofar or Persus, if the Seer is to be believed. If it's not one of them we're well and truly screwed anyway.
Ottofar hasn't posted enough for me to have any ammo to use against him, but I'd like to see Persus's claim. Have to run atm though.
Post by: Hapah on July 06, 2014, 11:31:18 am
True enough! Persus, because Otto isn't around to defend himself.Then why aren't you voting either one of them?Hapah who do you think is the dark magus?Has to be one of Ottofar or Persus, if the Seer is to be believed. If it's not one of them we're well and truly screwed anyway.
Ottofar hasn't posted enough for me to have any ammo to use against him, but I'd like to see Persus's claim. Have to run atm though.
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 04:47:10 am
Hapah, there's another 24 hours to go, but it looks like your buddy isn't turning up. Are you going to claim before being lynched?
Post by: Hapah on July 07, 2014, 09:57:55 am
Seriously, it's been days now and we've still been waiting for Persus. Ottofar has disappeared off the face of the planet.No idea about Otto, but it's been a holiday and a weekend. I bet Persus will show up.
Hapah, there's another 24 hours to go, but it looks like your buddy isn't turning up. Are you going to claim before being lynched?
My buddy?
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 10:05:09 am
At the same time, I'm getting that awful feeling that I'm missing something important and that the game just about to be lost from something out of leftfield. Mostly because there's a plan here but there's been zero resistance to this plan.
Hapah, seriously, the majority of the other players are saying that you're most likely scum. You've not put forward a credible countercase and you're idly waiting for Persus to get back. If you are town then really you've got to do better than this: I don't want to lose the game by having team mates that are too passive. Do you believe Wolf's claim? What about Flabort?
Post by: Toaster on July 07, 2014, 10:25:57 am
Post by: Hapah on July 07, 2014, 11:09:28 am
Hapah, it's about time to put up or shut up.Suit yourself. I am a Townsperson. Can you understand my reluctance to claim? I've got a really good idea how this ends.
Hapah, seriously, the majority of the other players are saying that you're most likely scum. You've not put forward a credible countercase and you're idly waiting for Persus to get back.It's been a holiday and a weekend for me too.
If you are town then really you've got to do better than this: I don't want to lose the game by having team mates that are too passive. Do you believe Wolf's claim? What about Flabort?The thing is, I've got no angle to contest Wolf's claim; I went over that before. I have no reason to doubt it, though: it's just unfortunate that it's put me in this position. How can you fight the process of elimination?
I believe Flabort's sage information is valid. It's possible that he started on the scum team, and it's possible that he had another person who is actually the Sage on his team. If someone flips scum Sage I'd lynch Flabort, but I don't think it's too likely.
If Wolf is on the up and up it has to be between Otto/Per/Flabort.
Will try to answer any questions that I can during my lunch in an hour and a half or so.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 07, 2014, 02:06:47 pm
And how would claiming townsperson after Persus13 claims mean anything? Yeah, Hapah, I think you're scum who's lost.
Post by: zombie urist on July 07, 2014, 02:56:56 pm
Post by: Hapah on July 07, 2014, 03:14:55 pm
I'm think there have been vanilla town in previous games? Definitely in paranormalsYeah there have been. I chose my words carefully.
Toony: I had to make him claim something, and if I kept my own claim a secret (doubly so with the not-in-the-role-list thing) I was hoping it might put him off balance. From where I'm sitting team has to be either 4mask and one or more of you confirmed folks, or some combination of Otto/Per/Flab with the latter scenario being more likely. He's gonna have to fake something.
Post by: Persus13 on July 07, 2014, 05:03:41 pm
Persus, the votes on you rest on a process of elimination thing, given that people are deciding to believe Wolf's inspection claim. If you're claiming not to be scum then essentially you've got to say why you think Wolf is lying or you've got to argue that the scum team is smaller than three people. The burden is on you. You're up for the chop here, so you should claim.Except we don't know how many scum there are, whether or not 4maskwolf is lying, or even what type of scum we're facing (besides whatever flabort says). Assuming there are three scum and they are the three unclaimed people 4maskwolf didn't inspect is too many assumptions, and that's how we lost the last Supernatural.
Anyway, Claim time.
I'm a Fortune Teller. Fortune Teller is a type of Mystic like Oracles and Seers, except they're basically a form of rolecop but not very precise in determining roles (Multiple roles will get the same inspection result)
N1 I inspected ZU, because he seemed scummy to me then and I couldn't think of anyone else at the time (I didn't inspect IG because he had claimed a new role, so I didn't know whether or not his role would be true). I got the result of Watcher, so it matched his Sexton claim.
N2 I went after Toaster, because he was my top scumpick at that point in time. He is a Watcher. Since there hasn't been a thief inspection in previous games, I don't know whether or not he's telling the truth about his role.
N3 I inspected NQT, because he was the only one against the IG/MOWE, which seemed odd (not scummy, just odd) and I got the result of Watcher (Seriously, I must be targeting all the Watcher roles in this setup). NQT hasn't claimed yet, but he definitely could be a Sexton, Seer, or a Warlock, judging by past inspects, and he couldn't be
I'm not sure whether or not to believe 4maskwolf or Hapah. There have been Townspeople in the past, and scum have fakeclaimed Seer before. Because of this, and I need more time to read post from today (in game, not realtime), I'm going to throw out an extend. Today is probably one of the most important days of this game.
Post by: zombie urist on July 07, 2014, 05:07:47 pm
Post by: flabort on July 07, 2014, 05:17:47 pm
NQT Does Persus's claimed inspect on you of Watcher stand up? Do you have an investigative role? (I don't remember if you've claimed or not)
I think, though, that Hapah is definitely lying. Could you tell us more about the flavor of a Townsperson? Are you claiming not to have a night action?
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 07, 2014, 05:19:29 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 07, 2014, 05:36:44 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 05:52:30 pm
I'd still like to see Ottofar replaced and hear his claim before we finish today, so extend.
Persus isn't lying about their result for me but they could easy have guessed that. What are the Fortune Teller options? Thief probably would be Watcher. We need to hear the flavour too. Fortune Teller scum is pretty normal, let's not forget.
I think it's very likely there was a conversion n1. So there's at least one Charismatic cultist. The second scum is likely the role Flabort pointed out (unless they're lying scum). Maybe there's a 3rd. Plus the convert. There's 9 of us now: if we mislynch, that's scum won. I think we're in MYLO. So we best be so freaking sure of this. I'm worried about wolf. Is his oppose extend him getting itchy for a scum win?
But we know there's at least one new element. The magus? Or regular townsperson?!
Wolf did you ever claim your role pm flavour? How about Persus and Hapah? Ask meph for additional details if there'd not much there, he'll do that I'm sure.
Gahh, I'm not sure whether to claim. I'll probably be night killed either way but if we haven't lost this round. Hmm. I'm going to sleep on it. Look im in the morning.
Post by: Hapah on July 07, 2014, 06:06:01 pm
I think, though, that Hapah is definitely lying. Could you tell us more about the flavor of a Townsperson? Are you claiming not to have a night action?My flavor is all of 3 sentences. You are correct, I have no actions.
NQT: Regular townspeople have been in past games, I found at least one when looking. I can ask for more flavor if you want but my PM is about as bare as you could get. And I really doubt we're at MYLO.
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 06:19:18 pm
Hapah
NQT: Regular townspeople have been in past games, I found at least one when looking. I can ask for more flavor if you want but my PM is about as bare as you could get. And I really doubt we're at MYLO.Yes, apologies, you are absolutely correct. Please could you paraphrase what little flavour you got.
There are nine of us, right? No kill n1, so one-shot convert (ala S6) is possible, right? That means the scum team could be as many as four people big by now, assuming they could have started off with 3 to begin with. Sound reasonable? As such, if we mislynch tonight and scum kill another townie, we'll be at 3 town to 4 scum and it'll be game over. So please explain to me your doubts that it could be MYLO.
While you're working that out, I'm going to look back on some things...
Post by: ToonyMan on July 07, 2014, 06:34:01 pm
Do you really think Persus13 simply guessed your role type? That's pretty risky.
Also, extend.
Post by: notquitethere on July 07, 2014, 06:39:09 pm
Do you really think Persus13 simply guessed your role type? That's pretty risky.Not 'simply', no. I have good grounds for thinking he could easily have worked it out. I'll explain if/when I claim.
Post by: Hapah on July 07, 2014, 06:59:41 pm
HapahSimple townsperson, not sure why I was brought here, use my wits and my vote to help town weather this evil.NQT: Regular townspeople have been in past games, I found at least one when looking. I can ask for more flavor if you want but my PM is about as bare as you could get. And I really doubt we're at MYLO.Yes, apologies, you are absolutely correct. Please could you paraphrase what little flavour you got.
There are nine of us, right? No kill n1, so one-shot convert (ala S6) is possible, right? That means the scum team could be as many as four people big by now, assuming they could have started off with 3 to begin with. Sound reasonable? As such, if we mislynch tonight and scum kill another townie, we'll be at 3 town to 4 scum and it'll be game over. So please explain to me your doubts that it could be MYLO.Technically we'd be at LYLO if there are 4 scum, but there's not much of a difference.
I just feel that a 3+1 scumteam would be too much. That'd potentially turn a 8/3/2 start into a 5/4/2 spread at the start of D2 without anything crazy happening (mislynch, town convert, SK kills town). You could get it to 4/5/2 if the Priest was the convert and tried to res the mislynch (assuming that priest trumps neccy, and that scum priests res people as scum), and that's scum outnumbering town at the dawn of D2. It's too much, and I can't believe that we're that far behind after lynching 2 SK's and (I assume) that scum and IG doubled up kills on Jack. I could maybe see a 3 or a 2+1 at the most, and I don't know that a 2 or 1+1 (mentor style) scumteam would be out of the question. If I got any of the math wrong let me know.
Post by: zombie urist on July 07, 2014, 08:52:48 pm
Gahh, I'm not sure whether to claim. I'll probably be night killed either way.Why? Also claim.
Also also I'm guessing that the twist this game is that the dark magus can't be traced to the kill since he uses magic. I will not be surprised if he's immune to redirects, watches, and tracks.
Post by: Hapah on July 07, 2014, 10:51:34 pm
oppose extension, at least for now. We've got more than 24 hours to go and most people seem to be of similar mindset right now.And what mindset would that be? There's still much to discuss, why do you want to cut it short?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 08, 2014, 11:46:47 am
Persus13: Hapah, zombie urist
Hapah: 4maskwolf, flabort, notquitethere, Toaster, ToonyMan
Day has been Extended to ~4pm Pacific Wednesday.
Since there has been no sign of Ottofar, I'm going to replace him.
Post by: zombie urist on July 08, 2014, 04:47:09 pm
Flabort: now that the claims are out do you think that claiming earlier would have been a good idea? Are you still trying the apply the same strategy you were originally planning?
Persus: what possible results can you get?
Post by: flabort on July 08, 2014, 04:49:02 pm
Flabort: now that the claims are out do you think that claiming earlier would have been a good idea? Are you still trying the apply the same strategy you were originally planning?1) Yes
2) No
Playing Bingo Battle Pikmin 3 at the moment, can't type a longer answer right now
Post by: zombie urist on July 08, 2014, 06:43:58 pm
Post by: flabort on July 08, 2014, 07:41:25 pm
My original strategy was to flush scum out with really aggressive RVS votes. I didn't really follow through with that because it was a bad idea.
Claiming when I was asking to on day 2 would have also been wrong. However, claiming earlier than everyone did, say on day 3 instead of day 4, would have been good, because we could have confirmed each other during the night, and confirmed that we were what we claimed rather than doubting each other when we all claimed day 4. Yes, it might have changed the scum's target last night, but we'd know who was lying by now, rather than not knowing which of us are fake claiming and which are telling the truth.
Such as Persus's claim of Fortune teller. If he'd claimed on day 3, he'd been targeted by 4mask, and 4mask would have been targeted by NQT, whatever she's claimed (I don't recall if she's full claimed), etc. That way we'd know who was fake-claiming lying scum rather than trying to second guess each other's claims right now.
So yes, claiming earlier would have been a good idea. No, claiming when I wanted us to would have been a bad idea. No, my original idea was a bad idea.
Post by: Hapah on July 08, 2014, 09:08:35 pm
4mask
I'm waiting.oppose extension, at least for now. We've got more than 24 hours to go and most people seem to be of similar mindset right now.And what mindset would that be? There's still much to discuss, why do you want to cut it short?
Toaster, Toony, flabort, NQT: No other questions? You good with a me-lynch?
Persus: Claim your flavor, please.
Post by: flabort on July 08, 2014, 09:22:06 pm
It seems more likely that you would be the Dark Magus, or their assistant. I wouldn't even be surprised if you started as their assistant, and your power is just that they can't die until you do, because you could honestly claim that you can't do anything.
As far as other questions, I'll let you know if I think of any.
Post by: Hapah on July 08, 2014, 09:31:10 pm
I'll answer whatever I can, we've got a day. I've made what little of a case I can, and I don't think the game ends tonight.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 08, 2014, 11:00:18 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 05:05:33 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 05:16:59 am
I'll do it if no one else is available.Please do!
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 05:18:19 am
Did we get flavour from Persus?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 09, 2014, 09:59:42 am
I'll do it if no one else is available.Thanks, Flandre! I'll PM you the Role info an Night Action stuff.
I'm also going to do an automatic Extension of the day to ~4pm Pacific Thursday to give Flandre time to get caught up.
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 10:14:34 am
Flandre, you'll obviously want to read the thread but here's the quick summary: we've lynched two serial killers and a townsperson (ZU, who Toony brought back from the dead). Two townsfolk have been night killed, including the doctor. There was no kill on N1 and I suspect a one-shot conversion is to blame.
Wolf has claimed a benign inspect on Toaster (n1), Toony (n2), and NQT (n3). We know ZU wasn't in the original scum team and he wasn't converted either (all kills bear the mark of the same fire-magic themed scum team). Flabort has been coming up with solid seer info that's corroborated by other elements (but this doesn't clear him alignment-wise). Persus claims Fortune Teller and has called Toaster, ZU and I watchers, (Toaster claimed Thief)— this hasn't been contested. Hapah says he's a regular townsperson. If we believe Wolf, by process of elimination you're probably scum so we want you to claim.
Post by: Persus13 on July 09, 2014, 11:09:04 am
[Oh, and Persus13.So your first post of the game has you voting another player without any explanation or evidence whatsoever? Not a great start.
If we mislynch today, it is LYLO tomorrow, so we can afford to lynch them all one by one and see which one isn't scum.And you know it's Lylo tomorrow how?
I believe that Persus13 should be the first player to go because, other than Ottofar the lurker, he reads the most scummy to me. As such, he should be the one we off first.And I read the most scummy to you how? You realize that you are a replacement and that you don't have a bunch of previous posts to justify your vote like almost everyone does, right? Take ZU's vote. ZU has been consistently voting me since D1, and he has multiple different posts to justify his vote of me. Justify your votes.
Gentleman and ladies, I have come to a disturbing conclusion.The Mentor type role could be a possibility, but like flabort said, it wouldn't negate your inspection results very much. Also, how does Hapah give you a cult leader vibe?
We may be facing a mentor (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mentor) type role.
Why do I believe this?
There was no kill night one, leading to the conclusion of at least a pseudo-cult. I was also trying to determine how a one-man scumteam could be effective, and that would likely be the best one-man team that wasn't a full cult.
If I'm right, there's good news and bad news. The good news is that we would only need one lynch to end the game. The bad news is that lynching the apprentice or whatever would nullify all of my action results.
As such, I change my vote to Hapah, because I get a cult-leaderesque vibe from him.
oppose extension, at least for now. We've got more than 24 hours to go and most people seem to be of similar mindset right now.Why are you so eager to end the day. Especially when several people have barely posted and both myself and Hapah had barely claimed?
Flabort:
Persus13 As one of the people who doesn't have a claim or is not protected by 4mask's claim, you are apparently one of the suspects. If you had a kill right now, who would you kill next? If you had a protect, who would you protect next? What are your current reads?I don't know who to kill since I'm not sure who to believe at the moment. I want to believe 4mask, but I some of what he's said and some of his actions are concerning me. Probably 4maskwolf right now. I would likely protect NQT, because he is one of the most towny players right now.
Current reads:
Toaster: If scum have a convert, it was probably used on him. Nothing odd otherwise.
NQT: Pretty sure he is town.
4maskwolf: Said some really odd stuff today, and has claimed seer, which I want to believe but also feels too easy to do.
flabort: Likely town at the moment.
ZU: Likely town or demon, unless Toony is scum.
Toonyman: Seems fairly neutral. Town if 4maskwolf is to be believed.
Ottofar/Flandre: Need to reread his posts.
Hapah: Acting scummy, still has pushed only one case, and hasn't really attacked me despite his vote.
Toonyman:
Persus13 does seem like a good lynch since he's been around to answer questions, what say you?I have? I wasn't aware of that.
NQT:
Persus, the votes on you rest on a process of elimination thing, given that people are deciding to believe Wolf's inspection claim. If you're claiming not to be scum then essentially you've got to say why you think Wolf is lying or you've got to argue that the scum team is smaller than three people. The burden is on you. You're up for the chop here, so you should claim.When people place votes, they should state why. It helps other people analyze their case, and decide whether or not they agree with it. A case also can help people determine their opinion of the case maker. Wolf's inspection claim doesn't change this fact. It just means that people are being incredibly lazy.
Zombie Urist:
Please include the flavor text for all your results.Sure. I have ritual each night. After muttering incantations and prayers to the gods, I drink a potion to put me in a trance and concentrate on the person I inspected that night. In the trance I draw a symbol on the wall. Each time it has been an eye, signifying that my target was a Watcher.
Persus: what possible results can you get?You mean in Fortune Teller results? I can get Watcher, Protecter, Changer, Survivor or Killer.
Flabort:
As a powerless townsperson, without even signifigant flavor text, your claim seems pretty unlikely from what I know.Lynching someone based on hypotheticals is not a good idea. Townsperson is a role that has appeared in previous games. The question is whether or not you believe Hapah to be scum based on his performance in the game so far. Do you believe him to be scum because of that?
It seems more likely that you would be the Dark Magus, or their assistant. I wouldn't even be surprised if you started as their assistant, and your power is just that they can't die until you do, because you could honestly claim that you can't do anything.
As far as other questions, I'll let you know if I think of any.
Flandre: Welcome to the game?
Post by: Hapah on July 09, 2014, 11:12:02 am
Hapah, ask Meph to give you a bit more details about your background from your PM. I think he'll do it.You are correct! Paraphrasing it: I am a cooper, and have been for years. I am devout and attend services in this temple when I can, but not as often as I feel I should. I am humbled by the fact that the gods picked me for the trials that face the town today.
Did we get flavour from Persus?Maybe in the new stuff no time to read now.
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 11:16:24 am
I've skimmed through the game to get a feel for what's going on, but it's a lot to take in. I'll do my best to get up to speed and make up for Ottofar's disappearance.
If we believe Wolf, by process of elimination you're probably scum so we want you to claim.
The summary is appreciated ^^
I knew I was going to have to claim if I was going to be of any real help. Anyway, I do actually have a bit of useful information and would love to.
I am a Dreamwalker, one who jumps between the minds of others as I sleep (wow, creepy). Every night, one random, unnamed person is chosen as a host for my nightly visions, and I see everything that they do if it is specified (i.e. I see their night PM's).
On Night 1, I saw 4nightwolf's night action. He was in an alcove with incensed braziers, requesting from the gods a feeling at Toaster's alignment, which turned out benign. His claim was truthful and I confirm that he is town.
Night 2 was uneventful.
Night 3 is a bit more interesting. I witnessed Jim's grisly death through his own eyes. He never saw his assailant, but it was a familiar voice that responded and laughed at Jim's exclamation to the room before sending fire forth from his hands and burning Jim to a crisp.
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 11:28:34 am
Post by: flabort on July 09, 2014, 11:46:45 am
Because I'm leaving for camping on Friday. And won't be back for a week after that, so...
Yeah.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 09, 2014, 11:55:05 am
Post by: zombie urist on July 09, 2014, 01:26:40 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 09, 2014, 01:27:57 pm
Hmmm... speaking of replacement, if I put in for it right now, then maybe I'll get one by Night Fall.
Because I'm leaving for camping on Friday. And won't be back for a week after that, so...
Yeah.
Have fun on your trip!
We need a replacement for flabort, now. Anyone else available to replace in?
Post by: zombie urist on July 09, 2014, 01:38:18 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 09, 2014, 01:51:29 pm
On Night 1, I saw 4nightwolf's night action. He was in an alcove with incensed braziers, requesting from the gods a feeling at Toaster's alignment, which turned out benign. His claim was truthful and I confirm that he is town.This doesn't confirm he's town.
Wait Flandre you saw 4masks inspect results?Actually reading on previous games this isn't unusual.
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 02:02:09 pm
Based on what I understand, 4maskwolf's truthful claim in favour of the town gives credence to him and his inspect results. Maybe it isn't 100%, you're right. But I see no reason why he'd list out three benign inspects (one proven to be truthful) with an intent to mislead, as scum.On Night 1, I saw 4nightwolf's night action. He was in an alcove with incensed braziers, requesting from the gods a feeling at Toaster's alignment, which turned out benign. His claim was truthful and I confirm that he is town.This doesn't confirm he's town.
Anyway...under the assumption that we believe 4maskwolf, and there has been no conversions or anything since the inspects, that leaves four confirmed townies:
-4maskwolf (town)
-Toaster (benign)
-Toonyman (benign)
-NQT (benign)
Given Toonyman's benign inspect and possession of a healing role, I'm inclined to believe that ZU's revival had no strings attached either, so she is also town.
-Zombie Urist (role-flipped and revived by benign Toony)
Unless I'm mistaken with the above, this leaves us with three possible targets for the Head Bad Guy™:
-Persus
-flabort
-Hapah
Hapah would be the only one out of the three without an invested role-claim. I'm inclined to believe that process of elimination and inspection should work in exposing which one of us is the Big Bad, just as 4maskwolf suggests. Should we get robbed of our investigative roles (such as in a NK), I am perfectly okay with dying if it ever comes to that.
Wait Flandre you saw 4masks inspect results?Yes, I saw his first night action.
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 02:03:15 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 02:07:08 pm
Meph: can you remove the duplicate, please?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 09, 2014, 02:09:23 pm
Persus13: Hapah, zombie urist
Hapah: 4maskwolf, flabort, notquitethere, Flandre, Toaster, ToonyMan
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Thursday
@Flandre: Sure.
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 05:29:04 pm
Still have a nagging feeling it could be 4mask NQT and someone else. Will be sad if this is actually true.
ZU: I've spent the last half hour or so contemplating your thoughts above, and I'd like to ask -- are scum seers even a thing? Would a seer ability that returns vague inspect results like 'benign' ever be useful to a scumteam already aware of who they are?On Night 1, I saw 4nightwolf's night action. He was in an alcove with incensed braziers, requesting from the gods a feeling at Toaster's alignment, which turned out benign. His claim was truthful and I confirm that he is town.This doesn't confirm he's town.
Post by: notquitethere on July 09, 2014, 05:57:19 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 09, 2014, 07:56:44 pm
Toaster, Toony, flabort, NQT: No other questions? You good with a me-lynch?Hmmm, yes.
I don't doubt 4maskwolf enough. And now Flandre is backing them. That means that 4mask and Flandre would have to both be in cahoots.
Post by: Tiruin on July 09, 2014, 08:12:40 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 09, 2014, 08:14:57 pm
I'm think there have been vanilla town in previous games? Definitely in paranormalsYeah there have been. I chose my words carefully.
Why do you need to choose your words carefully if you're town? Your actions should demonstrate your alignment.
Yes, I'm still okay with your lynch. Persus seems to have nailed NQT's role type, so he's believable. Flandre got cross-confirmed by 4mask, though they could be in league; possible, but a stretch. Flandre also was dreaming... hmm.
Meph: Can a Dreamwalker carry out a scum team kill and still get a result?
NQT:
There are nine of us, right? No kill n1, so one-shot convert (ala S6) is possible, right? That means the scum team could be as many as four people big by now, assuming they could have started off with 3 to begin with. Sound reasonable? As such, if we mislynch tonight and scum kill another townie, we'll be at 3 town to 4 scum and it'll be game over. So please explain to me your doubts that it could be MYLO.
I think Meph learned from Super6 that in a 11 (which is close enough to 12 to keep this true) a 3 man team with a one shot convert is too powerful, regardless of role converted. Two with a one-shot or three with no convert are both plausible.
Flandre: For your N1 results, did 4mask seem pleased with the results? Did it read like a townie relieved to find a friend, or like scum annoyed to find out something he already knew?
ZU: I've spent the last half hour or so contemplating your thoughts above, and I'd like to ask -- are scum seers even a thing? Would a seer ability that returns vague inspect results like 'benign' ever be useful to a scumteam already aware of who they are?
There have been scum fortune tellers before. Granted, that's a lot more useful to scum than a seer is, but I believe any "town" role is fair game to scum that have human roles (which is all the ones we've seen before). Paranormal runs the same way (and specifies such) so I don't see a real difference here.
Zombie U:
Also also I'm guessing that the twist this game is that the dark magus can't be traced to the kill since he uses magic. I will not be surprised if he's immune to redirects, watches, and tracks.
Problem is, that's the Necromancer's trick. I doubt that Meph got lazy and reused the same theme.
Post by: zombie urist on July 09, 2014, 08:36:25 pm
Zombie U:Yeah I agree now that Flandre saw someone visit Jim before he got burnt. But there must be some new twist this time...Also also I'm guessing that the twist this game is that the dark magus can't be traced to the kill since he uses magic. I will not be surprised if he's immune to redirects, watches, and tracks.Problem is, that's the Necromancer's trick. I doubt that Meph got lazy and reused the same theme.
Post by: Hapah on July 09, 2014, 09:51:18 pm
Current reads:Yeah, I've kinda given up.
-snip-
Hapah: Acting scummy, still has pushed only one case, and hasn't really attacked me despite his vote.
Because one of them might not be benign.Based on what I understand, 4maskwolf's truthful claim in favour of the town gives credence to him and his inspect results. Maybe it isn't 100%, you're right. But I see no reason why he'd list out three benign inspects (one proven to be truthful) with an intent to mislead, as scum.On Night 1, I saw 4nightwolf's night action. He was in an alcove with incensed braziers, requesting from the gods a feeling at Toaster's alignment, which turned out benign. His claim was truthful and I confirm that he is town.This doesn't confirm he's town.
Anyway...under the assumption that we believe 4maskwolf, and there has been no conversions or anything since the inspects, that leaves four confirmed townies:Mostly correct; but inspects fire before conversions. If you think there was a conversion N1, Toaster cannot be confirmed (though he can't be the leader or a team by himself, so best to follow up on other leads first)
-4maskwolf (town)
-Toaster (benign)
-Toonyman (benign)
-NQT (benign)
Given Toonyman's benign inspect and possession of a healing role, I'm inclined to believe that ZU's revival had no strings attached either, so she is also town.
Unless I'm mistaken with the above, this leaves us with three possible targets for the Head Bad Guy™:Plus yourself, yes.
-Persus
-flabort
-Hapah
Hapah would be the only one out of the three without an invested role-claim. I'm inclined to believe that process of elimination and inspection should work in exposing which one of us is the Big Bad, just as 4maskwolf suggests. Should we get robbed of our investigative roles (such as in a NK), I am perfectly okay with dying if it ever comes to that.Trust me, I'd absolutely love to claim something else. Like I said, when it's a short list like this and I've got no alibi, it's a very predictable outcome.
Hapah:Context, Toaster.Why do you need to choose your words carefully if you're town? Your actions should demonstrate your alignment.I'm think there have been vanilla town in previous games? Definitely in paranormalsYeah there have been. I chose my words carefully.
Yes, I'm still okay with your lynch. Persus seems to have nailed NQT's role type, so he's believable. Flandre got cross-confirmed by 4mask, though they could be in league; possible, but a stretch. Flandre also was dreaming... hmm.They have confirmed each other's roles, not alignments. There's a difference.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 09, 2014, 10:14:08 pm
Meph: Can a Dreamwalker carry out a scum team kill and still get a result?
No.
Post by: Reverie on July 09, 2014, 10:28:44 pm
I don't doubt 4maskwolf enough. And now Flandre is backing them. That means that 4mask and Flandre would have to both be in cahoots.No, that's not the case, though there's no saying how thrilled I was to have concrete knowledge over a player's claimed ability, a result, and a means to prove it with a bit of flavour.
Flandre: For your N1 results, did 4mask seem pleased with the results? Did it read like a townie relieved to find a friend, or like scum annoyed to find out something he already knew?During his inspect, he was very indifferent in the way he took it. After pulling out of the incense induced stupor, he simply 'pondered the new information', and whole thing was fairly level-headed with no cold, scummy undertones.
Hapah: Whether or not anyone was converted since being declared benign doesn't apply to the cult-converter if there is one. Between the four of us (you, flabort, Persus and myself), using Wolf's lead, one of us would be it. Since I can account for myself, and flabort and Persus have claimed roles that could backfire if they've been falsified, that leaves you. You're on the noose, but that's not to say that you'll be hung immediately, or that you should give up. We have a whole day to talk it over, let's make the best of it.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 09, 2014, 10:34:19 pm
As I've said previously: if you doubt me, lynch me. We have the time to spare, and my job in this game is done.
Post by: zombie urist on July 09, 2014, 10:35:26 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 09, 2014, 10:38:47 pm
The question is, given up because you're town, or scum? I do sympathize with your position if you're scum, since you got really unlucky, but that's not going to stop my vote!Current reads:Yeah, I've kinda given up.
-snip-
Hapah: Acting scummy, still has pushed only one case, and hasn't really attacked me despite his vote.
The dreamwalker literally gets a copy of the PM.Yep.
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 10:16:27 am
Hapah is focusing too much on IG, who is almost certainly not a converter. His case relies only on picking holes in his flavour. He's also keeping his head down, not attracting much suspicion.
Flabort isn't playing great, but getting better, and seems genuine, particularly in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5394885#msg5394885). Followed by this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5396509#msg5396509), which seems pretty sincere too, I'm getting a good town feel from him.
NQT has raised some flags but his series of five posts before N1 looked like he was genuine looking to benefit town there.
Jim's kindof suspicious, see below.
ZU's denial of a cult is weird. His reasoning is because of "games on this subforum", which doesn't really make much sense. Apart from that, not getting a strong read on him.
ToonyMan is really uninvolved. He parked his vote on ZU late day 1 with minimal reasoning:Zombie Urist for not engaging in the game and being unhelpful. Have anything to say? What are your thoughts on Jack AT and Toaster?Early D2 he put it on ZU again with no more reasoning (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388860#msg5388860), and... hasn't really done anything since. No real pressure on ZU(a few softballs), or on anyone else. A lot of answering questions and asking things without applying pressure.
Ottofar also hasn't really done anything.
I'm just about to check how the Wolf-Sheep combo respond to Toaster and Toony on Day 3...
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 10:24:45 am
Read the part where I vote him. Toonyman's probably town because he's confirmed to have raised you.This is a promising possible confirmation on D3. (They could still be on the same scum team though...)
Post by: zombie urist on July 10, 2014, 10:36:56 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 10:42:01 am
Post by: zombie urist on July 10, 2014, 11:54:35 am
Big post coming soon-- quickly, yes scum seer is possible and useful for scum in a game with two other killers.What happened to this.
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 12:13:03 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 10, 2014, 12:29:33 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 12:46:30 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 10, 2014, 01:32:35 pm
Unless they abstained from killing that first night on purpose, it would seem that only one of the cult members could carry them out. I wonder if something like the following could work:
-Cultist A is the leader and can do one of two possible actions -- NK by fire-hands or one-shot convert.
-Cultist B is a subordinate with no ability to NK, but has a useful non-violent ability (completely useless after Cultist A is killed?)
But then again, maybe it's not a cult at all -- NQT might have a blocker role and successfully saved a player that night.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 10, 2014, 01:55:13 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 10, 2014, 04:31:56 pm
Persus13: Hapah, zombie urist
Hapah: 4maskwolf, flabort, notquitethere, Flandre, Toaster, ToonyMan
Day ends in ~1.5 hours
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 05:29:14 pm
Jack the good wizard protected nobody in the game and has links to ley lines, corroborating Flabort's Sage claim. He fought an assailant using fire magic, using his own water magic.
Ugh I'm half-convinced in the grand Wolf-Toaster-Toony plot. I wish I could have done more. Hapah tied his own noose with his non-existent scumhunting though.
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 05:30:26 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 10, 2014, 05:39:27 pm
And why isn't Persus voting?Oh, right. I was trying to decide whether or not 4mask's claim seemed true to me, but Flandre's claim seems to corroborate 4maskwolf's claim.
In that case, Hapah is probably scum.
Post by: notquitethere on July 10, 2014, 05:45:47 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 10, 2014, 05:55:52 pm
In case I get night killed, some important things I know:So... he protected himself. Which means the magus couldn't have converted.
Jack the good wizard protected nobody in the game and has links to ley lines, corroborating Flabort's Sage claim. He fought an assailant using fire magic, using his own water magic.
Post by: Reverie on July 10, 2014, 05:56:08 pm
Yeah I hope so. Wolf could still be scum. I don't like the way he instantly jumped on the first plan I suggested and then later tried to shorten before we'd even got a replacement for Ottofar. But Hapah is super shady (wanting everyone else to claim first, perhaps so he wouldn't be contradicted?) and has made no real effort to paint an alternative picture and has struggled to make cases in the game.Hapah couldn't have been contradicted if he's the vanilla townie he claims he is.
Ugh I'm half-convinced in the grand Wolf-Toaster-Toony plot. I wish I could have done more. Hapah tied his own noose with his non-existent scumhunting though.I don't expect there'd be time now, but I'd have liked to hear about this theory of yours.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 10, 2014, 06:02:05 pm
Persus13: Hapah, zombie urist
Hapah: 4maskwolf, flabort, notquitethere, Flandre, Persus13, Toaster, ToonyMan
The Sun hangs low in the sky, spreading a blood red tint across the walls.
Hapah stares down at his hands while the final vote tallies are read out by the Herald. Slowly he stands, and walks reluctantly to stand before the High Priest.
"I...I know why this must be done. It is the will of the gods, and I have always striven to be their servant in all things. I may not have been the best, but I tried." He looks up, tears streaming down his face. "Will you tell my family that I was brave, at the end?"
The High Priest looks at him sadly. "I will. If you are a true man of the gods, I swear they shall know of your sacrifice." He then paints the mark of justice upon Hapah's forehead.
Hapah's eyes look out sadly at all of you one last time, and then with a slight nodding of the head his eyes close and he drops to the floor. The High Priest looks down, regret on his face.
"He was a simple man, but a good and honest one. A credit to Townsmen everywhere. He will be missed." He pauses a bit and looks up.
"Our danger is as great as ever. Be safe tonight, and may we rid ourselves of this evil tomorrow!"
You head off to your homes, wondering what the morning will bring.
Night has fallen. Send in your actions!
Post by: Mephansteras on July 14, 2014, 12:35:04 pm
It is Flandre who does not join you today.
The High Priest looks on, sadly. "We have lost another ally of the town this day. Flandre was a gifted Dreamwalker, as she had claimed. As with the others, she was burned to death last night. We have lost so many good people to this evil. You must stop them!"
Day 5 has started. It will go until ~4pm Pacific Wednesday.
IronyOwl has replaced in for flabort, who is off camping.
As a note, Flandre has changed her forum name to Reverie. I kept it as Flandre in the day start flavor to things from getting too confusing.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 14, 2014, 12:47:29 pm
I have a theory, but I need to look over the thread real quick.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 14, 2014, 01:12:53 pm
Jack the good wizard protected nobody in the game and has links to ley lines, corroborating Flabort's Sage claim. He fought an assailant using fire magic, using his own water magic.You know...if you said this sooner I might have taken your suspicions of a Night 1 convert a bit more seriously.
Post by: Reverie on July 14, 2014, 01:37:08 pm
Or that's would I would have said if I was scummy-scum...
Go town! <3
Post by: zombie urist on July 14, 2014, 02:07:38 pm
Why? If the magus tried to kill Jack then he couldn't have also converted that night.Jack the good wizard protected nobody in the game and has links to ley lines, corroborating Flabort's Sage claim. He fought an assailant using fire magic, using his own water magic.You know...if you said this sooner I might have taken your suspicions of a Night 1 convert a bit more seriously.
One of the other scum is a roleblocker. I was roleblocked last night, so I've got nothing to give the town today.What flavor of roleblocking?
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 02:23:54 pm
Toony
You know...if you said this sooner I might have taken your suspicions of a Night 1 convert a bit more seriously.Sure, but I had other considerations, like not giving scum too much ammunition to plan their claims.
ZU
Why? If the magus tried to kill Jack then he couldn't have also converted that night.What in blue blazes are you talking about? The scum targeted Jack on N2 and there was no kill and no protecting on N1, so why couldn't they have converted N1?
Toaster, Persus, neither of you's is dead, so results please. IronyOwl, you too.
(Obviously I have nothing interesting more to claim otherwise I would now do so)
Post by: ToonyMan on July 14, 2014, 02:24:28 pm
Can wizards protect themselves? That's weird.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 14, 2014, 02:25:32 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 02:26:44 pm
Can wizards protect themselves? That's weird.I'm pretty sure that's not the case, otherwise Jack would have protected himself both nights, which he obviously did not do.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 14, 2014, 02:57:08 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 02:59:55 pm
4maskwolfshorten. I know who the scum team almost certainly is, but I'm tired of playing mafia and am fine with leaving the game early.Put those toys back in the pram young man. This kind of play is counterproductive and not fun for anyone. Play to your wincon and stick out games otherwise people will be reluctant to play with you.
Although you're obvscum, but let's pretend for a moment you're not, and ask who you think the scum team are?
Post by: zombie urist on July 14, 2014, 03:01:15 pm
N1: No kill
D2: ZU sexton lynched
N2: Jack wizard killed, ZU ressed
D3: IG Necro lynched
N3: Jim lone witch killed
D4: Hapah town lynched
N4: Flandre (reverie) dreamwalker killed
Flandre confirmed 4mask is a sage. So 4mask can't be the magus. I'm voting Persus
Post by: zombie urist on July 14, 2014, 03:01:31 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 03:08:28 pm
We need to hear everyone's claims before making any firm choice today. Luckily, there aren't hammers.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 14, 2014, 03:11:10 pm
This is exactly the type of shit that makes me not want to play mafia anymore. Why don't you go take your high and mighty bullcrap and stuff it.4maskwolfshorten. I know who the scum team almost certainly is, but I'm tired of playing mafia and am fine with leaving the game early.Put those toys back in the pram young man. This kind of play is counterproductive and not fun for anyone. Play to your wincon and stick out games otherwise people will be reluctant to play with you.
Although you're obvscum, but let's pretend for a moment you're not, and ask who you think the scum team are?
As ZU very astutely says, I have to be a sage because Flandre/Reverie SAW MY ACTION. NOBODY ELSE IS A SAGE. NOBODY ELSE HAS CLAIMED SAGE. And if I was on the scumteam and so you say I'm not the real sage someone else on the team is, WHY NOT HAVE THE REAL SAGE CLAIM INSTEAD OF ME. It would be incredibly counterproductive to do anything else.
That being said, the scumteam is Persus and NQT, with ZU also possibly being a scum illusionist after revival.
Post by: zombie urist on July 14, 2014, 03:13:19 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 14, 2014, 03:18:27 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 03:19:45 pm
Illusionists can't roleblock. The Guard is the blocker, a jailkeeper role.
ZU, I claimed in my last post yesterday. Well, as much as people need to know. I can cough up an alibi every night if people really need but I'm very aware that I claimed too much too early in the last Supernatural game and I'll not make that mistake again.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 14, 2014, 03:29:59 pm
In case I get night killed, some important things I know:Let's take a look at this pseudo-claim for a minute. All of this stuff can be known by just being a member of the scumteam and making an extrapolations . It isn't that hard, nobody can ever say otherwise because Jack A T is DEAD. It's amazing how he has all of this specific information about just Jack and nobody else in the game. Persus claimed after EVERYBODY else and declared two known information roles and NQT to be watchers. This is a cover for his scumbuddy, who is, in fact, an illusionist variation.
Jack the good wizard protected nobody in the game and has links to ley lines, corroborating Flabort's Sage claim. He fought an assailant using fire magic, using his own water magic.
Last night, my pm discusses how I was caught in a web of chains of darkness in my meditation. I was roleblocked by a magic-using role, I suspect some variation on the illusionist. Unless Flabort is the other scum, which I doubt, at least one of my targets was illusioned to appear town to my inspects. NQT seems the most likely, particularly as he still refuses to claim.
And NQT: the reason I didn't, and still don't, vote either of you two is that I'm done playing mafia and want to leave as soon as possible. Too bad if that's unfun for you.
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 03:40:56 pm
The roleblocker is the Guard, who is definitely non-magical. It's possible that there's a one-shot blocker as one of the new roles. If so, then put forward an argument as to who it could be.
I mean, other than OMGUS, what is your actual case that I'm scum (especially given your benign read)?
I did claim. If you can't work out what I was claiming then I did my job right in not telling scum too much. I'd say more if people were actually worried about my alignment.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 14, 2014, 04:04:30 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 14, 2014, 04:05:58 pm
Did Jack ever say why he didn't protect? Because not protecting is super stupid and Jack isn't super stupid.
I think in a previous game this was allowed but just to make sure.
Meph: Are we allowed to quote warlock chats?
Guard is a jailkeeper. Illusionist is a redirector. I do remember vaguely reading flavor about chains, but that might be from Paranormal. I'll look into that later.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 14, 2014, 04:13:36 pm
Meph: Are we allowed to quote warlock chats?
Yeah, you can quote other people. You just can't quote PMs from me.
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 04:27:40 pm
Wait a second NQT! If you think 4maskwolf is a scum seer then he can't be our converter.Yeah, I voted him straight off because he's most likely to be scum. But you're right, he's not a converter (though he may have been converted). I think the converter if there is one would only be one-shot, otherwise they'd be converting every night. I'm going to have a think about everything, especially when everyone else claims, before I press my final case today.
ZU, yeah he did say. He wanted info more than he wanted people alive. I'll quote it all, but I want to hear from everyone else first.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 14, 2014, 05:06:31 pm
ToonyPFP, I'll get to other stuff later.Wait a second NQT! If you think 4maskwolf is a scum seer then he can't be our converter.Yeah, I voted him straight off because he's most likely to be scum. But you're right, he's not a converter (though he may have been converted). I think the converter if there is one would only be one-shot, otherwise they'd be converting every night. I'm going to have a think about everything, especially when everyone else claims, before I press my final case today.
ZU, yeah he did say. He wanted info more than he wanted people alive. I'll quote it all, but I want to hear from everyone else first.
Everyone has roleclaimed except you bud. Claim now.
Post by: zombie urist on July 14, 2014, 05:37:21 pm
Hi ZU!
Guess what, I'm the town Warlock. That's why I wanted you to clarify about the body, as I'd had a nice chat with Jiokuy's corpse on N1.
I'm sorry I contributed so heavily towards your lynch. If I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll be looking at the people that coasted on that lynch (like Toony?).
Basically, can you tell me anything that will help the town? Did you have any particular reason for thinking there wasn't a cult? Do you have any clues as to what could have taken the body?
Given how things turned out in the end, who are you most suspicious of?
If you've got anything else to contribute, please do. We're both on the same side and you still have a chance to make a positive difference to the game.
Also, it's quite possible that IG will resurrect you! If so, please don't tell anyone I'm a Warlock (unless I'm dead), as this could help us retrieve a lost inspect report if an investigative town member is killed in the night before they get a chance to pass on what they know.
If there's anything you'd like to know from me, go ahead and ask. I can talk with you for the next 24 hours.
Were you given any indication as to why you were expecting to be busy burying people?Sure, we can probably survive a few mislynches, especially as we don't have Jiokuy killing town players. Still, nicer to get at least one scum flip to start solidifying reads.No I'm just a sexton. I tend the graveyard. I expect to be busy burying ppl the next few days
Could you tell me something specific about your role flavour? (In case I need to claim warlock later, having details I can share is helpful.) I assume your role pm said something flavourful about how you were Sexton?
One of my responses is missing and I'll try to remember what I said.cuz if all the lunches and stuffIf anyone questions whether I really spoke to you, all I need do is quote that line and they'll recognise your unique voice shining through the words, so I thank you.
Well this is probably the last missive I'll be sending you, so I sincerely hope I'm not night killed and that if you get resurrected, nothing bad happens with the resurrection. Thanks again for speaking with me!
Post by: zombie urist on July 14, 2014, 05:38:27 pm
That being said, the scumteam is Persus and NQT, with ZU also possibly being a scum illusionist after revival.Wait you said you inspected NQT and he is town.
Post by: notquitethere on July 14, 2014, 06:29:49 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 14, 2014, 07:01:26 pm
maskwolf:
As ZU very astutely says, I have to be a sage because Flandre/Reverie SAW MY ACTION. NOBODY ELSE IS A SAGE. NOBODY ELSE HAS CLAIMED SAGE. And if I was on the scumteam and so you say I'm not the real sage someone else on the team is, WHY NOT HAVE THE REAL SAGE CLAIM INSTEAD OF ME. It would be incredibly counterproductive to do anything else.I did a lot of research last night, checking and cross-referencing things through a variety of tomes. I discovered that a Dark Magus is a versatile and flexible foe with a wide range of powers.
That being said, the scumteam is Persus and NQT, with ZU also possibly being a scum illusionist after revival.
So if you inspected N1, you still could have killed N2 and thereafter. Is there any all-caps reason I'm forgetting why you couldn't have guessed N2 and N3 inspect results?
And NQT: the reason I didn't, and still don't, vote either of you two is that I'm done playing mafia and want to leave as soon as possible. Too bad if that's unfun for you.You said you'd play, play. Or at the very least request a replacement.
NQT:
Toaster, Persus, neither of you's is dead, so results please. IronyOwl, you too.
(Obviously I have nothing interesting more to claim otherwise I would now do so)
ZU, I claimed in my last post yesterday. Well, as much as people need to know. I can cough up an alibi every night if people really need but I'm very aware that I claimed too much too early in the last Supernatural game and I'll not make that mistake again.
I did claim. If you can't work out what I was claiming then I did my job right in not telling scum too much. I'd say more if people were actually worried about my alignment.
Yeah, I voted him straight off because he's most likely to be scum. But you're right, he's not a converter (though he may have been converted). I think the converter if there is one would only be one-shot, otherwise they'd be converting every night. I'm going to have a think about everything, especially when everyone else claims, before I press my final case today.
ZU, yeah he did say. He wanted info more than he wanted people alive. I'll quote it all, but I want to hear from everyone else first.
I've got four nights of claims ready to paste. I want to hear what everyone has to say about last night before I start divulging any info that could help a fakeclaim. We've got a little while. I can wait for everyone to get in here."EVERYONE CLAIM EVERYTHING! I need every scrap of info anyone has before I say or do anything. I would make an exception and chance it were I in danger, obviously."
Haha fuck you. This better be a goddamned magical claim that's totally reliable even though you knew everything we did before making it. Especially since it wasn't important enough to mention yesterday when you were pretty sure you "were going to get NK'd anyway."
Post by: ToonyMan on July 14, 2014, 07:12:25 pm
Unfortunately, I have absolutely nothing to claim. Besides reviving ZU on N2 I haven't gotten a single PM during the night.
Role-claims:
ToonyMan - Priest
IronyOwl - Sage
Persus13 - Fortune Teller
notquitethere - Warlock
Toaster - Thief
zombie urist - Sexton
4maskwolf - Seer
No one has claimed roleblocker, so either 4maskwolf is lying or someone else is lying.
People's roles who I think are confirmed:
Zombie Urist - he should be back as a sexton still
4maskwolf - Flandre confirms them as a seer
I don't feel like Persus13's role is confirmed because he only gave us known knowledge here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5447150#msg5447150), besides NQT, but NQT has reason to believe they could have figured it out.
Speaking of NQT, their role is also confirmed by ZU.
IronyOwl is probably a sage, if 4mask is telling the truth however...I find IronyOwl not trust-worthy.
Toaster's claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5435330#msg5435330) could be easily faked. I'd like to hear what he did last night. 4mask is backing them as town, however...
4mask/Toaster scum is possible. Toaster being the Dark Magus, 4mask being the N1 convert.
Especially since it wasn't important enough to mention yesterday when you were pretty sure you "were going to get NK'd anyway."To be fair, he says that at the end of every Day.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 14, 2014, 07:52:33 pm
I did a lot of research last night, checking and cross-referencing things through a variety of tomes. I discovered that a Dark Magus is a versatile and flexible foe with a wide range of powers.This is actually more useful to the town than you might think. It explains quite a few things and clears several people.
I am going to hazard a guess that the dark magus can not only take an apprentice, but that that apprentice takes up at least some of the original's powers. The "wide range of powers" would explain how I got roleblocked last night: one of the dark magus team roleblocked me while the other killed Reverie.
Now, my list of people I believe to be in the clear:
4maskwolf
ToonyMan: if he had been converted night one, he could not have used his revive night two, illusioned himself, and Persus performed the scumkill. That is too many actions for the scumteam. As such, I believe him to be innocent.
IronyOwl: there is no reason for him to give us this much information as a scum team member. It would have been far too easy to fabricate information to placate us, but the information we have been given seems remarkably accurate.
Now, the possible scum members, at least in my mind, from order of most scum to least scum:
Persus13: Only person other than Irony and ZU I haven't inspected, and those two are townie in my eyes and couldn't be the converter, respectively.
Toaster: Pending the man actually posting, my second scum pick because could have been converted N1 after my inspect.
NQT: The only charge I have against him is the obvconverter Persus knew what type of role he had. Other than that, after what Irony said, most of my accusations became invalid.
ZU: Can't be original, but if he is scum from the revival (highly unlikely) then we are at LYLO right now.
Let's go through the list of people, objectively, and see who could be the converter:
ToonyMan: almost certainly not.
IronyOwl: Probably not, for reasons stated above.
Persus13: Yes, could be converter.
notquitethere: second best option after Persus, barring a roleclaim.
Toaster: nope. showed up town the first night to 4maskwolf and the pm in question was confirmed by a now-dead confirmed townie.
ZU: Nope. Was revived.
4maskwolf: had his claim supported by Reverie that he targeted toaster with an inspect night one, so no.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 14, 2014, 09:09:45 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 15, 2014, 08:40:02 am
NQT:
Illusionists can't roleblock. The Guard is the blocker, a jailkeeper role.
This isn't quite true. I was an Illusionist in Super2, and was told that redirecting someone to themselves was a sort of roleblock, though I didn't ask if this applied to an untargeted action (Sage) or one that randomly targets (Dreamwalker).
It's also pretty irrelevant since no one has claimed Illusionist or being redirected.
4mask: There's one big problem with your claim: you didn't say who you tried to inspect and why. Why is this?
So...
ToonyMan - Uncountered claim to res ZU.
IronyOwl - Sage claim - has provided some info.
Persus13 - Fortune teller - claimed new knowledge on NQT.
notquitethere - Seems to actually be a warlock.
Toaster - Me. Claimed uncontested Thief tracks/watches.
zombie urist - Town as of D2. Was revived.
4maskwolf - Uncontested seer claim. Claimed to be blocked, which no one has claimed to have.
Hrm. Someone's lying here.
Post by: notquitethere on July 15, 2014, 10:18:49 am
Spoiler: N1, Jiokuy (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: N2, ZU (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: N3, Jack (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: N4, Jim (click to show/hide)
I chose Jiokuy N1 because he was the only dead person, ZU N2 because he was the only other dead person, Jack N3 because he was the Wizard and so the most useful person to talk to, and Jim N4 because he was the only town player with a power that I hadn't spoken to yet.
Conclusions: Jiokuy knew nothing, ZU was definitely a sexton, Jack protected no one and his flavour corroborates Flabort's claims, Jim was watching me and no one visited me (Seer don't leave home so wouldn't be spotted).
Persus might be lying about being a fortune teller, as he could easily have figured out my cryptic crossword-style D1 breadcrumbing:
notquitethere What's hiding beneath the hood?Hover over the text. Battle=War; Bind=Lock; a warlock (in D&D but not in Supernatural) can be a man who makes pacts with powers.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 15, 2014, 11:00:34 am
4maskwolf: notquitethere
notquitethere: IronyOwl
Persus13: 4maskwolf, ToonyMan, zombie urist
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Wednesday
Post by: zombie urist on July 15, 2014, 11:05:10 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 15, 2014, 11:27:13 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 15, 2014, 05:56:16 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 15, 2014, 10:11:47 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2014, 01:53:16 am
I'm a Fortune Teller. Fortune Teller is a type of Mystic like Oracles and Seers, except they're basically a form of rolecop but not very precise in determining roles (Multiple roles will get the same inspection result)
N1 I inspected ZU, because he seemed scummy to me then and I couldn't think of anyone else at the time (I didn't inspect IG because he had claimed a new role, so I didn't know whether or not his role would be true). I got the result of Watcher, so it matched his Sexton claim.
N2 I went after Toaster, because he was my top scumpick at that point in time. He is a Watcher. Since there hasn't been a thief inspection in previous games, I don't know whether or not he's telling the truth about his role.
N3 I inspected NQT, because he was the only one against the IG/MOWE, which seemed odd (not scummy, just odd) and I got the result of Watcher (Seriously, I must be targeting all the Watcher roles in this setup). NQT hasn't claimed yet, but he definitely could be a Sexton, Seer, or a Warlock, judging by past inspects, and he couldn't be
I am a Dreamwalker, one who jumps between the minds of others as I sleep (wow, creepy). Every night, one random, unnamed person is chosen as a host for my nightly visions, and I see everything that they do if it is specified (i.e. I see their night PM's).
On Night 1, I saw 4nightwolf's night action. He was in an alcove with incensed braziers, requesting from the gods a feeling at Toaster's alignment, which turned out benign. His claim was truthful and I confirm that he is town.
Night 2 was uneventful.
Night 3 is a bit more interesting. I witnessed Jim's grisly death through his own eyes. He never saw his assailant, but it was a familiar voice that responded and laughed at Jim's exclamation to the room before sending fire forth from his hands and burning Jim to a crisp.
As an afterthought, I think it's best to mention that I only know 4maskwolf's PM belonged to him because he claimed as much, and that it was Jim's death I witnessed because his killer addressed him by name.
I am a Thief. I can track or watch people.So that's 3 out of however many relevant claims we've got. Six? Seven? Eugh.
N1 I watched Flabort. IG's claim pointed him strongly out as a town role and that bad things might happen with IG if Flabort died, so I figured him as a good target for scum, kill or convert. No one visited him.
N2 I tracked ToonyMan. I still wasn't sure what to think of him, so I wanted to see what he was up to. He indeed visited Zombie U's grave. I didn't see the need to mention this to vouch for him since no one believed IG anyway.
N3 I tracked TWS/4mask. Like I said, I'd be revisiting him. I was hoping to catch him burning someone, but instead he stayed home all night, which is consistent with a Seer's ability (they don't leave home to use it.) It's not confirmation of his ability (or alignment) but it's consistent.
Based on what I've seen, it pretty much has to be Persus. But that assumes everyone's telling the truth, which they might not be. That's why I want the full list, so we know, for instance, how many liars we'd need for Toaster or Toony to be the Dark Magus. I'll continue to work on it eventually, but if you couldn't tell I'm having trouble sifting through everything.
NQT:
Irony Owl, do you disbelieve my claim now? Would you kindly vote someone that might actually be scum?I suppose not, and I suppose I should.
4mask:
I am going to hazard a guess that the dark magus can not only take an apprentice, but that that apprentice takes up at least some of the original's powers. The "wide range of powers" would explain how I got roleblocked last night: one of the dark magus team roleblocked me while the other killed Reverie.This seems a bit wonky to me. I guess it's plausible that the apprentice can use a nightkill while the master continues to use his broader power suite, but I really don't see the other way around.
Which brings us to the next question: Out of all of the options, why do you think scum would roleblock you?
Post by: notquitethere on July 16, 2014, 02:48:00 am
Wolf is confirmed as inconsistent:
Alright, I guess we have it all planned out. Lynch Hapah today, I inspect Ottofar and Toaster tracks Persus. If either of us dies and the other turns up a negative, we know who the converter is.
Everyone move your votes over to Hapah and then wait, I guess.
toaster: I tried to inspect Persus13 because I deemed him the shadiest of the people that I hadn't inspected.
The Hapah lynch was predicated on Wolf and Toaster enacting a plan that they never even pretended to enact.
Wolf also believes the only block in the entire game was used on him when there have been nights like N2 where everyone has claimed an action and no one claims to be blocked. Need I note that town is going along with the lynch choice of a liar? At what is most likely LYLO?!
Toaster, what made me a better target to follow than Persus?
I can't believe we still haven't heard from Persus. Extend until he gets here.
Everyone looking back, Hapah's claimed flavor was quite compelling. I'd like everyone to say a bit about their character's background. Ask Meph for more details if you need to.
I was only just learning the skills of the warlock when these dark times came upon me, but I feel confident in using my powers to help. If you'd like more, I'll ask for more details.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2014, 05:31:18 am
While I acknowledge that the current times are a Bad Thing, I seem to actually be pretty excited to be able to put my skills to work and solve this fascinating puzzle.
That's basically it. I've requested more detail from Meph.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 16, 2014, 08:46:52 am
Pfp, I'll get to questions/accusations later, but Meph: would a conversion show up in your night pm?
Post by: Toaster on July 16, 2014, 09:48:48 am
ZU: Are you a Lone Vampire?
Spoiler: Lone Vampire (click to show/hide)
NQT: I said why I followed you:
I tracked NQT last night because he hadn't claimed yet.
The only claim on you at this point was Persus listing your roletype as Watcher, so you were hardly above suspicion. Plus, why are you surprised I didn't follow a plan that I never agreed to and that was proposed six days before the lynch?
I think it's less "going along with the lynch choice" and more "why the hell hasn't Persus claimed yet?" which is an excellent question. Meph, can you please prod Persus?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 16, 2014, 10:02:10 am
extend.
Pfp, I'll get to questions/accusations later, but Meph: would a conversion show up in your night pm?
Do you mean, if someone was converted would that be part of their night pm? Yes, of course. And, yes, a Dreamwalker would see the conversion if they got that person's PM for that night.
I will prod Persus.
Post by: notquitethere on July 16, 2014, 10:04:22 am
ZU: Are you a Lone Vampire?Oooh, that's intriguing. This changes things.Spoiler: Lone Vampire (click to show/hide)
But I did claim, in my last post. I gave info I'd only know if I were a warlock. I know you didn't say you'd follow that plan, so I don't hold you to much too account here.
NQT: I said why I followed you:I tracked NQT last night because he hadn't claimed yet.
What's you role flavour?
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 16, 2014, 10:10:08 am
Which brings us to the next question: Out of all of the options, why do you think scum would roleblock you?For a couple of reasons, actually. Not the least of which being that I am the only player with the power to clear/condemn players directly. Other players could do so indirectly, but only through action claims. My guess is that they killed Reverie to keep her from operating as a backup/confirming force for the town, because I have an actual action that can be roleblocked. Also, even if they do have the power to disguise themselves, they can't know for certain who I would target, and as such it was more efficient just to block me. It also makes me look suspicious, as no blocking roles have been claimed.
AllBecause when Reverie claimed, I believed the claim. She knew my night action pm down to the flavor of it, so I decided to use my inspect on the person who I thought was most likely to be scum, Persus13.
Wolf is confirmed as inconsistent:Alright, I guess we have it all planned out. Lynch Hapah today, I inspect Ottofar and Toaster tracks Persus. If either of us dies and the other turns up a negative, we know who the converter is.
Everyone move your votes over to Hapah and then wait, I guess.toaster: I tried to inspect Persus13 because I deemed him the shadiest of the people that I hadn't inspected.
The Hapah lynch was predicated on Wolf and Toaster enacting a plan that they never even pretended to enact.
Wolf also believes the only block in the entire game was used on him when there have been nights like N2 where everyone has claimed an action and no one claims to be blocked. Need I note that town is going along with the lynch choice of a liar? At what is most likely LYLO?!You cannot say for certain that I was not roleblocked, and I take offense at being called a liar. Also, again, if you believe that I am scum and it is LYLO, then IO has to have been lying as well, as Flabort specifically said that there was one dark magus (at least to begin with). Thus, why aren't you driving a lynch on IO instead, which will also give you information on whether today was in fact LYLO whether he is scum or not.
Everyone looking back, Hapah's claimed flavor was quite compelling. I'd like everyone to say a bit about their character's background. Ask Meph for more details if you need to.I serve the High Temple of the town as a seer, granted power by the gods to see beyond the masks men wear. Each night I may inspect another player to learn if they are Benign or Malevolent towards the town.
I was only just learning the skills of the warlock when these dark times came upon me, but I feel confident in using my powers to help. If you'd like more, I'll ask for more details.
As for my night action pms, here's the gist of the flavor:
Spoiler: Night One (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night Two (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night Three (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night Four (click to show/hide)
PPE 2: Okay. So I can't objectively be the convert either, then, since Reverie saw my night pm.
PPE 3: See above note to Toaster about the nature of my roleblock. It is, however, still possible, just highly unlikely (in my opinion).
Post by: Toaster on July 16, 2014, 10:21:10 am
NQT: I said why I followed you:But I did claim, in my last post. I gave info I'd only know if I were a warlock. I know you didn't say you'd follow that plan, so I don't hold you to much too account here.I tracked NQT last night because he hadn't claimed yet.
You didn't claim warlock until today; you know, after the night? Sure, you said you knew something, but you hadn't really claimed.
What's you role flavour?
Basic stuff, really. It's unexpected that a lowlife like me is involved in an important event like this. I figured I'd help, since evil and such (I just now note that dark magic is mentioned in my PM, here) is bad for the trade. Plus it makes going out at night (as us thieves do) more dangerous.
I can request more information if you like.
4mask:
You cannot say for certain that I was not roleblocked, and I take offense at being called a liar. Also, again, if you believe that I am scum and it is LYLO, then IO has to have been lying as well, as Flabort specifically said that there was one dark magus (at least to begin with). Thus, why aren't you driving a lynch on IO instead, which will also give you information on whether today was in fact LYLO whether he is scum or not.
You... want to lynch someone to see if it's LYLO or not?
PPE: Toaster, the flavor I got last night is in line with a more magical roleblock as opposed to a vampiric roleblock.
I'm not asking you.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 16, 2014, 10:29:23 am
4mask:No. But here's the possible rationale behind lynching IO:You cannot say for certain that I was not roleblocked, and I take offense at being called a liar. Also, again, if you believe that I am scum and it is LYLO, then IO has to have been lying as well, as Flabort specifically said that there was one dark magus (at least to begin with). Thus, why aren't you driving a lynch on IO instead, which will also give you information on whether today was in fact LYLO whether he is scum or not.
You... want to lynch someone to see if it's LYLO or not?
If IO is town, then there was only one scum to start with. Lynching IO will tell us both that tomorrow is LYLO and that I am cleared from being possible scum, along with ToonyMan (I've already stated how if I am not scum then he is not scum).
If IO is scum, then today is likely LYLO. Lynching IO today results in us knowing that whatever he said is bogus and buys us an extra day, while a mislynch today results in a loss for town.
Me personally, I don't want IO lynched, because I think he is town. I was pointing out to NQT what his course of action could be if he thought I was scum, because if I'm scum then IO HAS to be scum.
Post by: zombie urist on July 16, 2014, 10:37:12 am
Post by: notquitethere on July 16, 2014, 11:06:27 am
Toaster
You didn't claim warlock until today; you know, after the night? Sure, you said you knew something, but you hadn't really claimed.I didn't deny Persus's Watcher claim and so there was only one thing I could have been! But sure, I take your point, if someone was insufficiently paying attention, it wouldn't have been clear that I was a Warlock.
Thanks for the flavour. Seems fairly legit.
4mask:
Flabort said there was a Dark Magus, he didn't say the magus had no allies! But look, if Irony Owl's latest info is legit, then we could be dealing with one scum with multiple powers (though multiple night actions seems unlikely). Still, I could believe he'd have an auto.
Hmm, unvote right now.
Hot damn we really need to hear from Persus.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 16, 2014, 01:32:23 pm
What's you role flavour?I serve the High Temple as one of the priests. I have the rare power to revive someone from the dead. If the ritual is not performed correctly or my soul is not pure enough, the ritual can go wrong.
Extend
Post by: notquitethere on July 16, 2014, 01:48:56 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2014, 02:02:26 pm
Other than that, I'm a scholar of history, especially local history, with added dabbling in the occult.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 16, 2014, 02:15:47 pm
4maskwolf: IronyOwl
Persus13: 4maskwolf, ToonyMan, zombie urist
Day has been Extended to ~4pm Pacific Thursday
Post by: notquitethere on July 16, 2014, 02:18:08 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 16, 2014, 02:18:43 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 16, 2014, 02:33:38 pm
I'm still bound by the ritual and leave'Bound' in what way? And by 'leave' do you mean you leave the graveyard?
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2014, 02:38:49 pm
Irony Owl, what's you view on the nature of the scum team?The versatile powers thing and other... what, 2 SKs in the game make the think the Dark Magus is intended to be something of a one-man army. The Mentor thing is plausible, and depending on how everyone's claims line up might be necessary.
I would be surprised if there's three scum, and am leaning towards one or initially one. My thoughts on balancing three killers in a thirteen-person game might not be totally accurate, though.
I'm also concerned by the flavor I got N1, wherein dark powers were at their peak yet nobody died. That could have just been intro flavor, but I assume it means something major but subtle happened.
In short I'm a fan of the single Mentor converting N1 theory. I assume we have one Dark Magus and one lying power role.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 16, 2014, 02:42:25 pm
If that is your view, then why are you voting me? The dreamwalker confirmed that I used an inspection night one and was not converted.Irony Owl, what's you view on the nature of the scum team?The versatile powers thing and other... what, 2 SKs in the game make the think the Dark Magus is intended to be something of a one-man army. The Mentor thing is plausible, and depending on how everyone's claims line up might be necessary.
I would be surprised if there's three scum, and am leaning towards one or initially one. My thoughts on balancing three killers in a thirteen-person game might not be totally accurate, though.
I'm also concerned by the flavor I got N1, wherein dark powers were at their peak yet nobody died. That could have just been intro flavor, but I assume it means something major but subtle happened.
In short I'm a fan of the single Mentor converting N1 theory. I assume we have one Dark Magus and one lying power role.
Post by: zombie urist on July 16, 2014, 02:44:30 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 16, 2014, 03:08:40 pm
I inspected flabort (now Irony Owl) last night because if 4maskwolf is to be believed, then IO or Flandre/Reverie was scum, and Flandre had confirmed we had a seer. After praying to the gods and drinking the liquid that but me into a trance, I drew an image of a man while concentrating on flabort's name. I realized Flabort was a Survivor. Sage has not previously been inspected by Fortune Tellers, so I can't say for sure if Irony is a Sage.
4maskwolf, did you flavor claim before Flandre roleclaimed?
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 16, 2014, 03:12:09 pm
Sorry for not posting sooner. I'm out of town for a week because my sister is getting married, which involved a multiple day car trip with no internet access. You can expect a longer post from me later today dealing with the day so far.Flavor claim of my action? No. But nobody had counter-claimed either, nor have they since then, so I'm as good as confirmed as seer and not a convert.
I inspected flabort (now Irony Owl) last night because if 4maskwolf is to be believed, then IO or Flandre/Reverie was scum, and Flandre had confirmed we had a seer. After praying to the gods and drinking the liquid that but me into a trance, I drew an image of a man while concentrating on flabort's name. I realized Flabort was a Survivor. Sage has not previously been inspected by Fortune Tellers, so I can't say for sure if Irony is a Sage.
4maskwolf, did you flavor claim before Flandre roleclaimed?
Everyone: Under what circumstances has a survivor inspect been seen before?
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2014, 03:26:03 pm
If that is your view, then why are you voting me? The dreamwalker confirmed that I used an inspection night one and was not converted.The one claim I do have. Fair enough, unvote.
So... I guess 4mask is confirmed town by Flandreverie;
NQT and Toony are confirmed town and Toaster is confirmed not-Dark Magus by 4mask;
NQT is confirmed not-converted by Jim via NQT (hrm);
Sage confirmed likely by Jack AT via NQT (not quite the same as me being the sage, sadly);
Toaster claimed Watcher by Persus;
IronyOwl claimed not-converted by Toaster;
I get the feeling I'm missing somebody, but so far this gives us:
Town:
4mask (would require townflipped Flandreverie to be lying or foiled N1)
NQT (would require town 4mask and Flandreverie to be lying or foiled N3, and townflipped Jim to be lying or foiled N1-N3)
Toony (would require town 4mask and possible convert Toaster to be lying or foiled N2)
ZU (would require Toony's rez going awry, or being lying or mistaken about it N2)
Possible Converts:
Toaster (would require town 4mask to be lying or foiled N1 and possible dark magus Perseus to be lying or foiled N2)
Persus (no qualifiers)
Possible Dark Magi:
IronyOwl (Reasonably difficult Sage intel; requires fortunate guessing or converting the real Sage)
Persus (Reasonably known but risky Fortune Teller intel; requires guessing NQT's role or converting the real Fortune Teller)
So... unless I'm missing something here, the Dark Magus has to be me or Persus, right? Assuming I'm correct about there just being the one with a conversion. That'd make Toaster the N1 apprentice.
Everyone: Under what circumstances has a survivor inspect been seen before?I actually have no idea. I would have assumed Sage would be a Watcher, but in retrospect I'm not actually Watching anyone, just receiving information.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 16, 2014, 04:04:20 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 16, 2014, 04:06:15 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 16, 2014, 04:07:58 pm
MOD:
What role result would a Sage be?
Post by: notquitethere on July 16, 2014, 04:08:51 pm
Watcher
Seer
Sexton
Warlock
(Thief)
Changer
Vampire Lord
Devil
Exorcist
Priest
Survivor
Coven Witch
Knight
(Sage)
Protector
Guardian Angel
Killer
Werebear
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2014, 04:18:13 pm
Converts happen after investigations so Toaster still can be convertedI said that. By "would require X" I meant "for him to be a Dark Magus instead."
Actually, now that I think about it, Persus claiming me as a Survivor means I can't be the Dark Magus either, unless he's on a different team than me or there's shenanigans. I think he just shafted himself. Unless Dark Magus has so many powers that it evens out to Survivor somehow.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 16, 2014, 04:20:55 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 16, 2014, 04:46:32 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 16, 2014, 04:58:51 pm
Oh it hasn't happened before.
MOD:
What role result would a Sage be?
That information has not been revealed yet.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 16, 2014, 06:08:43 pm
Sexton and sage are both passive information roles, I think.
Yet if IO is a sage, Persus is saying they go in different categories.
I'm guessing that one of the two of you is lying.
ZU: is sexton a passive role, or do you have to take an action?
Post by: zombie urist on July 16, 2014, 06:14:23 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 16, 2014, 08:16:05 pm
Sage... I don't know? Nothing like it exists in Paranormal.
Irony: Do your sage results hint that the Dark Magus has any sort of self-protection powers, or power to delude inspection? Wards to deter watchful eyes?
Meph: Are all magical abilities immune to tracking/watches, like the known Mystic roles are, or do some magic abilites work that way but not others?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 16, 2014, 08:33:52 pm
Meph: Are all magical abilities immune to tracking/watches, like the known Mystic roles are, or do some magic abilites work that way but not others?
It depends entirely on the role. Some magical roles can be tracked, others cannot.
Post by: Toaster on July 16, 2014, 08:35:17 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 16, 2014, 08:37:07 pm
Would a role with multiple abilities potentially have some trackable and others not?
That is possible, yes.
Post by: Toaster on July 16, 2014, 08:41:01 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 01:07:09 am
Irony: Do your sage results hint that the Dark Magus has any sort of self-protection powers, or power to delude inspection? Wards to deter watchful eyes?I received no hints on exactly what those versatile powers might be.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 01:10:59 pm
Remember IG's revive? Look at this now:
The revive is to ensure our said chosen one's allies survive to remove the immidiate threat.Said chosen one being Flabort/IronyOwl. Now, why would a Necromancer need a town Sage alive and his allies?
Also this:
I specitically told everyone IN MY CLAIM that I cant ressurect flabort.Why is that I wonder?? Is it because they're a special role like...Dark Magus?!
Other people I don't trust:
Persus13, 4maskwolf, Toaster
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 01:12:23 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 01:15:27 pm
Why would IG's wincon change if Flabort/IronyOwl were to die? I'm thinking that he would take over as the new mafia faction to replace the Dark Magus.IG: Considering something bad happens when Flabort dies, why not lynch you now to prevent that from happening?I'm a survivor lover who doesn't suicide when my target dies, but instead I get a different Wincon. I doubt I would get an SK or Mafia wincon if Flabort died.
Post by: zombie urist on July 17, 2014, 01:21:41 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 01:36:08 pm
??? I think IG was making stuff up from the beginning?This. Also, Toony, you're forgetting that I CAN'T be the convert because Reverie saw my night one pm.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 01:37:08 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 01:39:09 pm
Hmmm, right. That means the convert is Persus13 or Toaster.??? I think IG was making stuff up from the beginning?This. Also, Toony, you're forgetting that I CAN'T be the convert because Reverie saw my night one pm.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 01:43:05 pm
Why does it focus on Flabort/IO? I find that half-truths are the most convincing lies. (it worked too since he wasn't lynched Day 1)So you want to lynch me because the Dark Magus and the Necromancer were on the same team who also had access to Sage info, but not fakeclaims that weren't laughably inconsistent.
Brilliant, Toony. Really outdoing yourself here.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 01:51:30 pm
Are you against being lynched? Why, specifically?
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 02:03:45 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 02:09:49 pm
One of IO or Persus is scum, that's what I'm taking away from this whole scenario. I'm going to say Persus, because there is a thought brewing at the back of my mind about the scumteam. It is quite possible we are at LYLO today, and Persus is a part of all of my 2-and-three scum scumteams.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 02:12:09 pm
I don't think they were on the same team. It looked like the Nercomancer would supersede the Dark Magus if they died early on, because of bad luck or poor play. The sage info is probably part of the Dark Magus' abilities.Right, so they weren't on the same team, the SK was just told to protect the Dark Magus because they'd gain new powers and take over for the scumteam if the old one died. Much more plausible.
Fair enough on the sage info, except then I'd mostly have been getting info about myself.
Are you against being lynched? Why, specifically?Because it's a waste of time and a possible risk. I don't think we're at LYLO, but that's no excuse to lynch the less likely candidate on (part of) the word of an incompetent SK.
Why do you think Flabort asked for a Mass-Claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5388841#msg5388841) at the beginning of Day 2?That was odd.
From the post, I'd guess he was calling for it for the same reason anyone calls for a massclaim- an attempt to catch out scum. Why he did it D2 I can't say; maybe he was desperate to figure out what that ominous dark power spike the night before was? Or just cult-paranoid in general.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 17, 2014, 02:17:32 pm
IronyOwl: ToonyMan
Persus13: 4maskwolf, IronyOwl, zombie urist
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Today (About 4 hours from now)
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 02:49:23 pm
We must have two scum for there to be a blocker and a killer though.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 03:15:46 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 03:35:35 pm
Are we gonna extend to give Persus a chance to post? I'm kind of in favor of not, but I don't want to halfass the second-to-last lynch either.I'd say not. There seems to be a general sense, if not an actual agreement, that Persus13 is one of the scum. If we had hammers, he'd be at L-1 right now, which means that a good portion of the players believe that he is scum. He's posted already, I'm not sure what he could say to change my mind, since the roleclaims are against him right now.
The real problem I have is finding his scumbuddy. I'm going to have to look things over, but I think I may have found the other scum.
Post by: zombie urist on July 17, 2014, 03:41:00 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 03:42:40 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 17, 2014, 03:47:47 pm
My only hope is that because we took out both serial killers without either of them managing to make any unique kills themselves, that the game has been balanced anticipating much more town deaths by this point.
I've got such a bad feeling about all this but I don't have a solid counter theory and part of me says it's good that I feel bad about the lynch as that should be the default scum-hunting feeling. Suspicion is healthy. But that's no consolation when mislynches lose you the game.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 03:49:13 pm
I think it's inevitable him being lynched at this stage, but I'm getting that persistent feeling that I'm making a huge mistake and scum are going to grab a sudden win from left field like in almost every other damn game.NQT: If your suspicion is true, who would you peg as the three-person scumteam?
My only hope is that because we took out both serial killers without either of them managing to make any unique kills themselves, that the game has been balanced anticipating much more town deaths by this point.
I've got such a bad feeling about all this but I don't have a solid counter theory and part of me says it's good that I feel bad about the lynch as that should be the default scum-hunting feeling. Suspicion is healthy. But that's no consolation when mislynches lose you the game.
Post by: notquitethere on July 17, 2014, 04:01:19 pm
IronyOwl - His knowledge about ley-lines and necromancy strongly suggests he's telling the truth but he could have hidden knowledge
Persus13 - Every fortune teller guess could be made with prior knowledge, Tiruin fakeclaimed Fortune Teller with some success in the last game
But if scum has a Godfather power, or a series of one-shots (like block and resurrect) that they can use as well as killing, or if there's a two or three member team of the buggers, then any of you could be scum. ZU could even be rezzed as scum.
Post by: Toaster on July 17, 2014, 04:03:16 pm
There's also the potential threat of ZU being a sleeper demon, but we certainly don't know that either way.
The thing is, it's logically possible that any of you could be scum. If Flabort/Irony Owl were scum, it's even possible that there is no specific Magus but rather that the whole scum team have fire magic as their team kill. If we assume that there is only one scum, the Magus, here are the people that haven't had their abilities confirmed:
This begs a question.
Meph: If the Dark Magus comprises a standard scum team, do they have a standard (sharable) scum kill?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 17, 2014, 04:07:58 pm
Meph: If the Dark Magus comprises a standard scum team, do they have a standard (sharable) scum kill?
Kill based Scum teams all have a sharable kill, yes. Conversion based teams would not have this, of course.
Post by: Persus13 on July 17, 2014, 04:09:06 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 04:24:45 pm
I think it's inevitable him being lynched at this stage, but I'm getting that persistent feeling that I'm making a huge mistake and scum are going to grab a sudden win from left field like in almost every other damn game.Uh yeah, I feel like that'll happen with lynching Persus13 after doing Hapah the day before.
Seriously, it's bugging me how in-sync 4maskwolf and IronyOwl are.
And also counter 4mask's oppose extension. A town player shouldn't speak those words. I want to see what Persus13 has to say.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 04:27:28 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 17, 2014, 04:38:04 pm
I swear to God if it's a conventional cult that managed to nab a vigilante on the first night again...
Monster Hunters can't be converted any more. That caused too many unbalances in the game.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 04:58:41 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 05:01:39 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 05:02:44 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 05:03:00 pm
Meph: Would a lone Mentor-type role expected to recruit an apprentice count as kill-based or conversion-based?Meph: If the Dark Magus comprises a standard scum team, do they have a standard (sharable) scum kill?
Kill based Scum teams all have a sharable kill, yes. Conversion based teams would not have this, of course.
Extend. I still think it's Persus and Toaster, but this has made me nervous enough to just give it another day. We can shorten once Persus' said his piece.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 17, 2014, 05:06:19 pm
Okay, this use of the role "mentor" is really bugging me. There is a difference between a lone charismatic cultist style role with a nightkill and a mentor. A mentor is specifically a role that can convert another player if they don't have a partner, gains a nightkill when and only when they have a partner, and the mentee dies if the mentor is killed.Meph: Would a lone Mentor-type role expected to recruit an apprentice count as kill-based or conversion-based?Meph: If the Dark Magus comprises a standard scum team, do they have a standard (sharable) scum kill?
Kill based Scum teams all have a sharable kill, yes. Conversion based teams would not have this, of course.
Extend. I still think it's Persus and Toaster, but this has made me nervous enough to just give it another day. We can shorten once Persus' said his piece.
Also, the whole "mentor" role was just something I threw out as something to chew on for day 4. I don't actually think there is a true mentor role in the game.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 05:11:59 pm
Okay, this use of the role "mentor" is really bugging me. There is a difference between a lone charismatic cultist style role with a nightkill and a mentor. A mentor is specifically a role that can convert another player if they don't have a partner, gains a nightkill when and only when they have a partner, and the mentee dies if the mentor is killed.I've been thinking of them as Sith, and thus a true Mentor or close enough. And also it's easier to call it a Mentor than a lone charismatic cultist style role with a nightkill.
Also, the whole "mentor" role was just something I threw out as something to chew on for day 4. I don't actually think there is a true mentor role in the game.
That said, what do you think we have here and why?
Post by: notquitethere on July 17, 2014, 05:14:12 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 17, 2014, 05:16:15 pm
IronyOwl: ToonyMan
Persus13: 4maskwolf, IronyOwl, Toaster, zombie urist
Day has been Extended to ~4pm Pacific Friday. There will be no more extensions this day.
Meph: can I send in a night action now and my replacement override it should I need a replacement before night ends?
Yes, you can.
I don't suppose TheWetSheep is back?
Meph: Would a lone Mentor-type role expected to recruit an apprentice count as kill-based or conversion-based?Meph: If the Dark Magus comprises a standard scum team, do they have a standard (sharable) scum kill?
Kill based Scum teams all have a sharable kill, yes. Conversion based teams would not have this, of course.
If they gain a kill while as a team, or have a kill & a one-shot convert like the Charismatic Cultist, they would count as a kill-based scum team.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 05:22:53 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 05:44:28 pm
Okay, good. Still on track for Toaster killing Reverie while Persus RB'd 4mask. Even though my gut still doesn't like that RB claim.And we're going to lynch the role-blocker first?
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 05:46:06 pm
As opposed to the Thief, yes.Okay, good. Still on track for Toaster killing Reverie while Persus RB'd 4mask. Even though my gut still doesn't like that RB claim.And we're going to lynch the role-blocker first?
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 05:48:21 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 05:59:45 pm
Roleflip confirmed Flandreverie
Flandreverie confirmed 4mask's role and Toaster's towniness N1
Inspections fire before conversions, so Toaster could still have been the N1 convert, but he can't be the Dark Magus.
Though now that I look at it, is there a reason 4mask couldn't be the convert? I thought there was but I'm not seeing it now.
Post by: notquitethere on July 17, 2014, 06:01:56 pm
Though now that I look at it, is there a reason 4mask couldn't be the convert? I thought there was but I'm not seeing it now.Flandre would have seen it in her copy of Wolf's rolepm: Wolf is confirmed not to have been converted N1.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 17, 2014, 06:02:58 pm
Right, that's the one.Though now that I look at it, is there a reason 4mask couldn't be the convert? I thought there was but I'm not seeing it now.Flandre would have seen it in her copy of Wolf's rolepm: Wolf is confirmed not to have been converted N1.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 17, 2014, 06:47:28 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 17, 2014, 07:54:19 pm
ToonyMan - Priest, can't be the magus
IronyOwl - Sage, claimed ley lines, NQT said ley lines were connected to Jack??? Probably a sage. Doesn't really have a reason to mention the magus at all if he is scum.
Persus13 - Fortune Teller
notquitethere - Warlock, can't be the magus
Toaster - Thief, town N1 confirmed by Flandreverie, can't be the magus
zombie urist - Sexton, can't be the magus
4maskwolf - Seer N1 confirmed by Flandreverie
If there's a magus it has to be Persus.
Post by: Persus13 on July 18, 2014, 12:09:51 am
IronyOwl - Sage, claimed ley lines, NQT said ley lines were connected to Jack??? Probably a sage. Doesn't really have a reason to mention the magus at all if he is scum.We don't even know if the Dark Magus is a roletype. All we know is what Flabort/Irony Owl have claimed it to be.
Post by: zombie urist on July 18, 2014, 12:42:26 am
The burning killing also aligns with a magic user role so I believe his claim.
Post by: zombie urist on July 18, 2014, 12:44:55 am
But the other point remains.
Post by: Toaster on July 18, 2014, 07:53:21 am
IronyOwl - Sage, claimed ley lines, NQT said ley lines were connected to Jack??? Probably a sage. Doesn't really have a reason to mention the magus at all if he is scum.We don't even know if the Dark Magus is a roletype. All we know is what Flabort/Irony Owl have claimed it to be.
Here's the problem; you're not putting forward any alternative. Your head's on the chopping block, and you're just glumly offering commentary. It looked too easy, but I don't see any real alternative to it being you.
Post by: notquitethere on July 18, 2014, 07:58:07 am
So when Persus becomes free we want to hear the background details from their role PM and any additional details Meph wants to tell them.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 18, 2014, 06:31:01 pm
IronyOwl: ToonyMan
Persus13: 4maskwolf, IronyOwl, Toaster, zombie urist
The final votes are tallied, and Persus13's name is called out.
He smirks and walks up to the High Priest. "Do you really think your gods will be able to save you, priest? You think I have not prepared for such a moment?"
The High Priest frowns. "The gods power is absolute. There is nothing they cannot do. Here, I will prove it." he draws the Mark of Justice upon Persus's forehead.
The man simply smiles for a bit. Then he gets a concerned look on his face, and his eyes glaze over. Moments later, he falls to the floor. The High Priest, looks down at his lifeless body. "We have found our Dark Magus, my friends! And yet, it seems he was not without allies. I sense that we are still in danger..." his voice trails off.
"Go to your homes, and may the gods protect the righteous this night!"
Night has fallen. Send in your actions!
We will need a replacement for 4maskwolf again.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 21, 2014, 02:55:46 pm
Dawn arrives, and you head to the Temple with a lighter heart than any other day during this ordeal. You stuck a mighty blow against the evil that threatens the town yesterday, and you feel cheerful that perhaps this nightmare will be ended soon.
Persus13 is already inside when you get there, a smirk on his face.
The hope in your heart turns to ash.
notquitethere, however is not with you. The High Priest glumly reports that he, too, was found burned to death last night. He was a Warlock, and while his magic may be dark is seems he had the town's best interests at heart.
It seems there is still much to be done to make this town safe.
Day 6 has begun. It will go until ~4pm Pacific Wednesday
Nerjin has replaced in for 4maskwolf.
Post by: Nerjin on July 21, 2014, 03:01:03 pm
Quote from: What I know
Toony - Benign
Irony - Benign
NQT – Benign
Toaster - Benign
Zombie - Unknown
Myself - Town
Pesus - Unknown
So... I think we should probably go for Zombie. Seems wise to me.
Post by: Nerjin on July 21, 2014, 03:10:30 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 21, 2014, 03:24:37 pm
Toaster is the only person who could have blocked 4mask/Nerjin the night before.
Post by: zombie urist on July 21, 2014, 03:29:11 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 21, 2014, 03:31:24 pm
Toaster is the only person who could be the convert. I'd like to lynch either one today. Let's go with Toaster since Persus13 isn't the one burning people at least.
Post by: Toaster on July 21, 2014, 03:31:39 pm
Wait is Persus still actionable?
He's certainly listed in the OP as alive.
So how did this guy get back to life if no one went to the graveyard, Mr. Sexton Sir?
Post by: Toaster on July 21, 2014, 03:33:22 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 21, 2014, 03:34:48 pm
So how did this guy get back to life if no one went to the graveyard, Mr. Sexton Sir?Uh, he probably could revive himself at least once? Look at the Day end post, Persus13 was clearly unconcerned about dying.
Oh yeah; no one visited 4mask/Nerjin last night. Was hoping to catch a killer redhanded; no luck.A likely story...
Post by: Toaster on July 21, 2014, 03:36:35 pm
So how did this guy get back to life if no one went to the graveyard, Mr. Sexton Sir?Uh, he probably could revive himself at least once? Look at the Day end post, Persus13 was clearly unconcerned about dying.
Until he was concerned, yes. The exact word's used in the flavor.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 21, 2014, 03:38:39 pm
I'll be back later.
Post by: zombie urist on July 21, 2014, 03:57:46 pm
I hope IO will have something new about the magus to share.
Post by: Persus13 on July 21, 2014, 06:00:44 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 21, 2014, 06:57:06 pm
Hi guys. You should lynch webadict, he's clearly scum.Do you really have a role where you can lay on your ass and behave like a jester? What a lucky bastard.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 21, 2014, 07:30:59 pm
Day 1 - Jiokuy is lynched, SK Werebear
Night 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5387741#msg5387741) - nobody dies
Day 2 - ZU is lynched, Town Sexton
Night 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5410002#msg5410002) - Jack AT is found burnt to ashes, ZU is revived by me
Day 3 - IG is lynched, Necromancer
Night 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5432402#msg5432402) - Jim is killed the same way as Jack
Day 4 - Hapah is lynched, Townsperson
Night 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5472935#msg5472935) - Flandre is killed the same way as before
Day 5 - Persus13 is lynched, Dark Magus
Night 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5497221#msg5497221) - Persus13 comes back to life (it must be an ability he has himself, that's why ZU doesn't notice it), and NQT is killed the same as the others
It is not possible for ZU to be our killer, because he was being revived and would be unable to kill.
It is not possible for me to be our killer, because I was reviving ZU.
It is not possible for 4maskwolf/Nerjin to be our killer, because Flandre was watching 4mask N1 and they were not converted, and we now know Persus13 is the Dark Magus.
It is not possible for Persus13 to be our killer (though I'm sure he's working with the culprit, since he's the freaking Dark Magus).
I don't think it's IronyOwl because they've been giving us good info, so guess what.
It's Toaster. His claim is incredibly easy to fake, nobody can prove him, and he would be fine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5487058#msg5487058) with lynching his buddy since they'd just come back!
Post by: ToonyMan on July 21, 2014, 07:38:42 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 21, 2014, 08:01:41 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 21, 2014, 09:39:01 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 21, 2014, 09:46:22 pm
His grave was undisturbed. So he probably teleported out or something? I think sexton only knows if other people do an action on the dead (other than warlock of course)?Or... maybe he's an illusion or something. The whole concept of a roleflipped scum revive concerns me, since it usually just buys them a day.
Other than that, Meph: Would a Sexton notice a self-revive?
I hope IO will have something new about the magus to share.Unfortunately I don't. There was apparently nothing new for me to learn, at least not yet.
On the bright side, this implies that there's no remaining shenanigans so complex we're allowed to hear about them.
Why hasn't anyone else been redirected/blocked?This is a really good question. I would assume the Dark Magus had a one-shot; maybe several, but we would only have noticed the block.
Alternatively, they wanted to build Toaster's credibility but he kept getting easily falsified results anyway. Or he was following people, but not the people he claimed to suspect and so knew he was better off lying about it regardless.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 22, 2014, 10:12:07 am
Persus13: zombie urist
Toaster: ToonyMan
zombie urist: Nerjin
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Wednesday
Other than that, Meph: Would a Sexton notice a self-revive?
That would really depend on how the self-revive worked.
Post by: Nerjin on July 22, 2014, 12:06:06 pm
It is not possible for ZU to be our killer, because he was being revived and would be unable to kill.
But... He's the only person not proven to be benign via investigation... I dunno. I trust my investigates a bit more than speculation, as rational and logical as it may be, but... You do make a very good point with the rest of it.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 22, 2014, 12:08:31 pm
Who did you inspect last night, IronyOwl?
Post by: Nerjin on July 22, 2014, 12:11:10 pm
Quote from: What I know
Nothing
Toony - Benign
Irony - Benign
NQT – Benign
Toaster - Benign - Maybe suspicious
Zombie - Unknown
Myself - Town
Pesus - Unknown
Post by: ToonyMan on July 22, 2014, 12:34:56 pm
Post by: Nerjin on July 22, 2014, 12:38:33 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 22, 2014, 02:25:41 pm
I suppose Nerjin can seer me tonight and then if we need to can lynch Persus again tomorrow.
IO what flavor did you get?
Post by: IronyOwl on July 22, 2014, 02:43:24 pm
Huh... I guess I have nothing to really go on then hm... I'll have to think this over later. Except... Wouldn't Zombie be automatically Malign regardless?Do successful town revives automatically produce goal-millers?
IO what flavor did you get?Read through a few old tomes, rechecked some things I'd marked as having information. Nothing new, conclude I've learned all I can, at least for now.
Good with Toaster.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 22, 2014, 03:38:30 pm
Also, lack of kill N1 and Jack didn't block it.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 22, 2014, 04:02:19 pm
Plus, Toaster seems pretty scum to me. He's got nothing to say beyond bussing Persus at the very end of yesterday, gave some halfhearted thing today, and then has otherwise been mum. I don't think he's town concerned that we're misreading the situation. I think he's scum who knows he's fucked.
Post by: Persus13 on July 22, 2014, 04:51:36 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 22, 2014, 07:08:59 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 22, 2014, 07:10:59 pm
Why should we trust the word of a guy who wants to lynch webadict? And is the Dark Magus?Wanting to lynch webadict was because none of you are going to believe anything I say anyway, so I shouldn't bother saying anything. Then I realized you lot have another third party to deal with.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 22, 2014, 07:16:19 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 22, 2014, 07:25:10 pm
I'm not going to read anymore posts by Persus and I advise everyone else to do the same.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 23, 2014, 10:49:28 am
Toaster: IronyOwl, ToonyMan, zombie urist
zombie urist: Nerjin
Day ends ~4pm Pacific Today (about 7 hours from now)
As a head's up, San Diego Comic Con starts tonight so I'll be attending that through Sunday. I'll be home at night, but my ability to be online is going to be heavily restricted. I'll try to keep the game going as best I can.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 11:31:03 am
Post by: Toaster on July 23, 2014, 12:13:12 pm
Let's assume that Persus has an ability that lets him cheat death in lynch form. The closest analogue in a Meph game is the scientist's Body Double. Let's look at that in action:
The tally is done and it is clear that Leafsnail has failed to convince you that he is not a doppelganger. You drag him off to the hold where the last execution was done and Mysteriousbluepuppet picks up the rifle.
Leafsnail simply looks at all of you with a disgusted expression on his face. The blast from the rifle busts his head open, revealing complicated electronics in a fleshy shell.
"Seriously, another Body Double?!" Bursts out Jim. Where the hell do you people find the time to make these things? Let alone the materials?"
Since no one has a serious answer for that, you disperse and head off. It's going to be a busy night.
[/i]
Comparing this to the Persus lynch, there are two major differences:
1) Leafsnail here did not roleflip. Persus did.
2) Leafsnail was alive at night. Persus was not.
Meph is pretty consistent in his moderation style, even across gametypes; just look at the Fortune Teller and the Telepath for a strong example. I don't believe that he'd have the same ability on two different roles with such vastly different mechanics.
No, I don't think Persus had a "second life." I think someone brought him back to life, and there's only one possible person that could be.
Zombie Urist. It's pretty clear he just wanted to ensure he himself wasn't lynched and survive to the end.
Spoiler: PS to Meph (click to show/hide)
Post by: zombie urist on July 23, 2014, 12:24:46 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 12:33:29 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 23, 2014, 12:44:30 pm
Nice try but neither demons nor lone vamps can revive plus IO didn't get any knowledge of any new third parties.
So what's your theory on what happened? Also, I note you're assuming IO is telling the truth.
Toony: Tough question. If we assume Nerjin is town, that covers everyone but ZU. It's certainly possible that Nerjin has been scum since the beginning, though.
Nerjin: Why inspect IO over ZU, anyway?
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 01:03:59 pm
Post by: Nerjin on July 23, 2014, 01:12:41 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 23, 2014, 01:18:44 pm
Post by: Nerjin on July 23, 2014, 01:21:23 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 02:09:30 pm
That's a lot of mafia though. You made a bad call choosing IO over ZU.
Unless of course, you really are in league with IronyOwl. But that means that Persus, IronyOwl, and at least Nerjin are all scum. But, there's only six people left, so this is impossible. If there were three scum, the scum would number the town and the game would already be over.
There is only two scum left, and one of them is Persus13.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 02:12:55 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 23, 2014, 02:16:04 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 23, 2014, 02:23:30 pm
Nerjin you should vote Toaster so Persus can't tie the vote at the last minute.
Post by: Toaster on July 23, 2014, 02:24:46 pm
which is impossible because IO didn't get any new information last night.
Did he ever see if that was because there was nothing to learn or because he was blocked? It's a *far* cry from "impossible."
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 02:28:34 pm
If we lynch Persus13's accomplice, Toaster, then Nerjin can check ZU to make sure and we can then figure out what to do. If Nerjin gets blocked again (there's been another day now so ZU wouldn't be killing them), then I would say it's pretty likely that ZU really is a lone vampire, but for now I kind of want to lynch the killer mafia member.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 02:30:10 pm
Post by: Nerjin on July 23, 2014, 02:32:50 pm
Nerjin you should vote Toaster so Persus can't tie the vote at the last minute.
I dunno. You seem to be not benign as far as I know... Though... It seems like maybe I should just to get the day over with... Bah, fine. Toaster. All things considered it seems the best way to handle things.
Post by: Toaster on July 23, 2014, 02:34:01 pm
PPE: Nerjin, you as well. Who raised Persus?
Post by: Toaster on July 23, 2014, 02:35:35 pm
Extend. Can't just let this slide.
Post by: zombie urist on July 23, 2014, 02:41:57 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 23, 2014, 02:51:22 pm
Did he ever see if that was because there was nothing to learn or because he was blocked? It's a *far* cry from "impossible."Can you block passive information roles?
Meph, is it possible to block or otherwise interfere with roles that automatically gain information at Night? Would the targets of said block attempts be aware they were blocked, or would their action appear to fail for another reason?
But besides, even if I was blocked, that'd mean either it was you doing it or you killing NQT while somebody else did it.
Actually, make that Everyone: Who raised Persus?Fair question. Have there never been any self-revives in Supernatural? I know targeted revives are pretty common, especially in some games.
What do you think ZU's wincon is?
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 02:55:00 pm
Toony, why are you ignoring the matter of who raised Persus?I already said (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5497369#msg5497369) he must have raised himself! What's more important is, why aren't you acknowledging my accusations that you are the magic burning culprit!?
Post by: Toaster on July 23, 2014, 02:57:20 pm
Because I know they're wrong. No, I didn't kill anyone.
Irony:
What do you think ZU's wincon is?
I don't know. I'm hoping some oddball survivor.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 03:01:31 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 23, 2014, 03:09:14 pm
Meph, is it possible to block or otherwise interfere with roles that automatically gain information at Night? Would the targets of said block attempts be aware they were blocked, or would their action appear to fail for another reason?
It is possible to block a passive role, yes, as long as it is a Night action and not a Morning Action. People are generally aware that they have been blocked in some fashion.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 23, 2014, 04:10:40 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 23, 2014, 06:05:22 pm
Toaster: Nerjin, IronyOwl, ToonyMan, zombie urist
zombie urist: Toaster
Toaster's name is called, and he reluctantly steps forward. It is clear that only the compulsion of the Ritual is making his feet move.
"Damn you all! I was going to have wealth! Power! I was going to be better than all of you!" He jabs his finger out and swings it around the room, his eyes boring into each of you as he moves along.
"Child," says the High Priest, solemnly, "such dark paths bring only sorrow. You would have been worse, not better."
Toaster's only reply is to spit in the priest's face.
The High Priest grimaces, wipes off his face, and draws the Mark of Justice upon Toaster's brow. He staggers backwards, clutching his forehead in pain, and then collapses onto the ground.
"It seems our young Thief had indeed fallen under the spell of the Magus." He looks around, a bit sadly. "Stay safe this night, everyone. We will do what we can to end this tomorrow."
You return to your houses. Night is falling.
Night has fallen. Send in your actions!
Post by: Mephansteras on July 27, 2014, 11:06:47 pm
The next morning finds you all back in the circle once again. Well, except for Nerjin.
It seems that he, like the others, was found burned to death in his house this morning. The High Priest confirms that he was indeed a Seer working for the good of the town.
The High Priest looks out at you. "You must end this evil! For all our sakes, end it!"
Day 7 has begun. It will go until ~4pm Pacific Wednesday.
Sorry for the delay. Comic-Con was even more hectic this year than usual. Fun, but busy!
Post by: Persus13 on July 27, 2014, 11:13:27 pm
Shorten
Post by: zombie urist on July 28, 2014, 12:01:07 am
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 12:11:36 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 28, 2014, 12:17:20 am
Post by: zombie urist on July 28, 2014, 12:43:49 am
Post by: Nerjin on July 28, 2014, 01:04:22 am
Post by: ToonyMan on July 28, 2014, 01:31:08 am
Post by: ToonyMan on July 28, 2014, 01:33:32 am
Post by: IronyOwl on July 28, 2014, 01:47:47 am
I can't tell if Persus13 has given up or we've already lost.My money's on the former. Being obvscum is not fun.
Persus, Shorten.
Post by: zombie urist on July 28, 2014, 03:45:01 am
Post by: ToonyMan on July 28, 2014, 01:00:13 pm
Persus13
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 01:41:55 pm
Persus13: IronyOwl, Persus13, ToonyMan, zombie urist
Persus13 steps forward a bit. "I know when I am defeated. This...Ritual of yours is far more effective than I would have thought. Very well, Priest. Make your mark. Let us not waste any more time on this business."
A bit warily, the High Priest steps forward and draws the Mark of Justice upon Persus' forehead.
He smiles slightly before his eyes unfocus, and his mouth twists in a grimace of pain.
Then, to your astonishment, his body begins to dissolve into black dust. Bit by bit melting away and blowing off into the wind. For a brief moment you see his skull hanging in the air, and then it too crumbles into nothing. You hear a faint wisp of laughter on the wind, and then it is gone.
The room seems...brighter, with him gone.
"I...do not feel his presence here any more." Says the High Priest, slowly. "While I cannot assure you that his evil is ended forever, he has at least been banished from our lands. The gods protect us, as they always have. There have been sacrifices, yes, but that is the cost of our protection and bounty. Praise to them all!"
"Praise to them all!" you intone.
He smiles. "Well done, my friends. The Ritual is Complete, and we are safe from evil once more. Return to your lives, and may the gods bless you always!"
And that is game! Well done, town! That was a close game at the end. Quite a lot of replacements, which is a shame, but hopefully everyone had fun anyway.
Magus Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ugsDkfE6Rdnm)
Necromancer Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/UUfADq4LWnX)
Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 01:42:46 pm
Spoiler: Night 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 3 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 4 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 5 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 6 (click to show/hide)
Post by: zombie urist on July 28, 2014, 01:56:40 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 28, 2014, 02:00:29 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 28, 2014, 02:03:30 pm
Too bad we didn't end up putting the Rune of Calamity on me; I figured there was still a shot of driving a mislynch on 4mask.
Enjoyable game; we would have been better off if the SKs hadn't died so quickly.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 02:05:56 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 28, 2014, 02:10:02 pm
Quote from: Toaster
wtf how do teh maggus rez wtfz?!Lol
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 02:11:05 pm
I was actually pretty concerned that NQT was a member of the scumteam, along with Toaster and Persus. What surprised me was that I didn't die for so long after claiming seer.
Post by: Toaster on July 28, 2014, 02:15:35 pm
ZU: At that point we were pretty much screwed, so we were trying anything to save ourselves.
The town also failed to realize they had a huge boatload of investigative roles, and something was probably up with that.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 02:17:37 pm
We kept you alive because we wanted you lynched. Oh well!Why did you guys kill the dreamwalker, exactly? In doing so, you basically confirmed my towniness.
Post by: Toaster on July 28, 2014, 02:18:49 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 28, 2014, 02:29:23 pm
Post by: zombie urist on July 28, 2014, 02:32:36 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 02:33:11 pm
Was there a deadchat?
No, the possibility of resurrections makes a deadchat impossible.
Post by: Persus13 on July 28, 2014, 02:33:33 pm
oh, right, I forgot.Was there a deadchat?
No, the possibility of resurrections makes a deadchat impossible.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 02:36:46 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 02:37:35 pm
Good job town. Everyone made all the right choices when it mattered. We were also lucky in getting no serial killer kills, which was encouraging. My play was mixed: I sussed Jiokuy out and made all the right inspection choices, but my town hunting was way off.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 02:38:58 pm
Good job town. Everyone made all the right choices when it mattered. We were also lucky in getting no serial killer kills, which was encouraging. My play was mixed: I sussed Jiokuy out and made all the right inspection choices, but my town hunting was way off.I swear, it seems like you are still super paranoid about me from GBU :P You never believe a word I say.
Post by: Nerjin on July 28, 2014, 02:41:42 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 02:42:20 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 28, 2014, 02:44:39 pm
The town also failed to realize they had a huge boatload of investigative roles, and something was probably up with that.Well, they realized it enough to lynch the only person without one. :P
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 02:45:40 pm
I've just lost this game too many times be anything but paranoid, and when I know you enjoy complex ploys, it doesn't help my trust. It all paid off in the end. Being suspicious is a good town technique to stop scum killing you.And how often do these complex ploys of mine work?
Once. In one of my first games. And it wasn't that complex, I just unvote-bussed a scumbuddy.
Frankly, I thought that the scumteam was you, Persus, and Toaster, since Persus knew your role and Toaster had known who you targeted. I got the impression that you had come up with an incredibly complicated fakeclaim which nobody could prove otherwise, and had been illusioned N3 (since you were kind of suspicious then, it's why I targeted you). So much for complex ploys.
Post by: Persus13 on July 28, 2014, 02:48:53 pm
Is this the first time in a supernatural game that a priest resurrection went off without a problem?No. Supernatural 6 had a rez go fine. There were some earlier ones that went well too.
I was actually pretty concerned that NQT was a member of the scumteam, along with Toaster and Persus.Despite the fact that you inspected him and saw he was town. Plus he was one of the few who wanted MOWE to stay alive D3. Those almost confirmed him as town.
Frankly, I thought that the scumteam was you, Persus, and Toaster, since Persus knew your role and Toaster had known who you targeted. I got the impression that you had come up with an incredibly complicated fakeclaim which nobody could prove otherwise, and had been illusioned N3 (since you were kind of suspicious then, it's why I targeted you). So much for complex ploys.THat's not how illusionists work.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 02:50:46 pm
Post by: flabort on July 28, 2014, 02:53:47 pm
Also, Meph, I loved that. I think as a scum team, the Dark Magus allowed for some amazing play and flavor.
You could take the flavor from this game, and write a movie script with it! Throw in some of the intrigue from the day play, and you have quite the Shakespearean tragedy, I think, if the Thief is the protagonist.
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 02:57:10 pm
This was a fun one. I liked the one man army aspect to the scum team. Way more fun than a straight cult, and way more unpredictable than a kill team. When Wolf claimed a block, I was super suspicious. That element of the unknown wouldn't quite work the same the second time around, but it's enough like other teams that town can be reasonably unsure of what's happening (until night 2 when people start catching fire).
Post by: Reverie on July 28, 2014, 03:03:16 pm
Hah, just reading the Magus chat. Glad to see Persus wasted an inspect on me rather than figuring out my breadcrumbing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5360701#msg5360701).Did anyone work it out? It was trivial for me as an amateur cryptic crossword setter, but I figured you guys wouldn't notice it and if you did notice, you wouldn't figure it out.I see Toaster figured it out, bit too late though (was that after I'd already claimed?) But then, breadcrumbing it did also weaken the strength of Persus' fakeclaim.
This was a fun one. I liked the one man army aspect to the scum team. Way more fun than a straight cult, and way more unpredictable than a kill team. When Wolf claimed a block, I was super suspicious. That element of the unknown wouldn't quite work the same the second time around, but it's enough like other teams that town can be reasonably unsure of what's happening (until night 2 when people start catching fire).
I still can't see the clue you breadcrumbed :V
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 03:04:26 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 03:06:32 pm
Hover your cursor over my response to my name.Wait, what? How did you do that?
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 03:08:38 pm
I really enjoyed this game. Despite the scum being determined through process of elimination and interlocking claims, they fought back valiantly and did everything they could to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. I seriously spent more time than I probably should have thinking through every possible iteration of the scum team.Yeah, though we were all on the right track, they kept us second-guessing until the end.
Magic.Hover your cursor over my response to my name.Wait, what? How did you do that?
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 03:10:35 pm
What do people think about the Dark Magus as a scum team?I really enjoyed this scum team. It wouldn't have the same shock value a second time, but I think that the newness of it contributed to the feel of the game. To be honest, I think that the town might have died without Flabort/IO, because they were able to provide crucial information about the nature of the scumteam just when we needed it.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 28, 2014, 03:12:04 pm
Sorcery works as well.Magic.Hover your cursor over my response to my name.Wait, what? How did you do that?
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 03:13:36 pm
I really liked the Dark Magus. As mentioned, awesome flavor as well as mechanics.I think I get it nowSorcery works as well.Magic.Hover your cursor over my response to my name.Wait, what? How did you do that?
Post by: flabort on July 28, 2014, 03:13:52 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 03:16:56 pm
What? You don't know how to do that?You are not very nice now are you?
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 03:18:34 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 03:21:24 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 28, 2014, 03:21:40 pm
Post by: flabort on July 28, 2014, 03:23:37 pm
Sorry, got a bit of a cold, and I turn into a bit of a troll when sick. :PWhat? You don't know how to do that?You are not very nice now are you?
And by cold, I mean a cough so bad that I go into fetal position during each fit. Plus runny nose, plus raw throat, plus gas.
Oh, and I think I learned how to abbr from Mastahcheese, iirc.
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 03:24:34 pm
Not a bad idea Meph.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 03:26:02 pm
Did you read what was REALLY in the words I said, rather than the words themselves?Sorry, got a bit of a cold, and I turn into a bit of a troll when sick. :PWhat? You don't know how to do that?You are not very nice now are you?
And by cold, I mean a cough so bad that I go into fetal position during each fit. Plus runny nose, plus raw throat, plus gas.
Oh, and I think I learned how to abbr from Mastahcheese, iirc.
also, ouch, that sucks. hope you get better soon.
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 28, 2014, 03:26:46 pm
Trust Toaster to be the player to catch the breadcrumbing.I've only "breadcrumbed" once, and that was making a reference that seemed obvious yet pointed to the wrong thing, but could still be connected back into my actual role name.
Not a bad idea Meph.
Post by: Toaster on July 28, 2014, 03:32:14 pm
And Meph; that sounds horrible, evil, and totally against the process of solving the puzzle. I approve.
I've tried to breadcrumb a few times; this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3143916#msg3143916) is one of the most memorable.
Spoiler: Hint (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Hint 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Answer (click to show/hide)
Post by: ToonyMan on July 28, 2014, 04:09:22 pm
Did anybody catch my bread-crumbing? I didn't know the nature of the Dark Magus' convert but look at this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139118.msg5423283#msg5423283):
"plus if there's a scum team with an infinite conversion they'd probably convert me tonight and I could help them choose the cool people to join our winning team"
I created an acronym tag with nothing inside of it, leading to an invisible message. NQT quoted my post but made no mention of it, odd...
EDIT:
Why did the scum team convert Toaster again. I'll remember this for S8...
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2014, 04:32:25 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 28, 2014, 04:44:01 pm
Post by: Hapah on July 28, 2014, 06:38:36 pm
Sorry for giving up at the end; but I really didn't see a way out of the noose. Townsperson looks shady as hell when everyone else claims actual roles.
Post by: flabort on July 28, 2014, 06:54:36 pm
And yeah, Townsperson was unexpected. I guess Meph expected Persus to snag you instead of Toaster.
Post by: Mephansteras on July 28, 2014, 07:15:08 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 28, 2014, 07:27:44 pm
Although, Jim, your day 1 reads list had two people you thought were scum, and while one was accurate, you voted for the other, me! :PI was actually thinking of converting Tiruin, because of NQT's jokingly mentioning the scumteam was both of us.
And yeah, Townsperson was unexpected. I guess Meph expected Persus to snag you instead of Toaster.
The things I take away from this game is that, wow, I had an accurate read on a scum player on Day 1, finally, and that Imperial Guardsman is a genius.YOu mainly thought I was scum because I was attacking Imperial for having a BS claim, which it was.
It also proves my point about how easy it is to fakeclaim. Same with my Fortune Teller claim, which you all basically believed until Hapah's lynch.