Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: TheLat on November 04, 2014, 04:21:29 am
-
THIS POST IS LOADED WITH SPOILERS
This fort was started specifically with the purpose of conquering the underworld and, if that fails, to develop better techniques for doing so and trying again later.
The fort was started in a nice, neutral biome with flux stone and, as it happened, lots and lots of limonite. It was also in the heart of goblin territory, because I often find that to be the most reliable source of iron in the game. I build a massive corridor of doom that was all cage traps which could trap an army 200 strong if they all came in in single file. It had a drawbridge system that could be set to easily allow traders in and make the invaders take the long route. I set out to get 12 squads of 10 military dwarves, 20 for each weapon. They were all equipped in full steel gear of exceptional or higher quality. Eventually, I added the 13th squad, which was all adamantine gear using shortswords.
There are a couple of points of interest with goblin sieges. First, sieges start to get cold feet and flee when enough of their troops are killed or captured. Make sure to leave a path at least 80 long between your drawbridge to trap them in the corridor of doom and the first trap. Second, goblin sieges got a lot bigger when I didn't kill off my prisoners. Whenever I killed off the prisoners, siege numbers dropped to about 12. After capturing two sieges of 12, it very quickly got to 80 per siege. Goblins and trolls were fantastic training for the military.
A fun optimization trick: Dwarves are easily horrified by things. When they are horrified, they train Discipline, which helps them resist horrifying things. I recommend keeping a corpse stockpile between your foodstores and your housing that the dwarves pass by every time they eat, drink, or sleep. I did this and most of my dwarves were experts in discipline, which helped a lot in the trying times that followed.
Once all 13 squads were trained up, I broke into the underworld and set my military of 130 against the demons. Mind you, my military was legendary in every single combat skill. I lost 70 in the battle, and the tantrum spiral that followed marked the end of my fort. So, I cheated and ended the process to try again, this time going about it more intelligently.
It's known that demons do not trigger traps, but that does not mean that traps don't affect them. Upward spike traps can be triggered by a switch, which I did in a previous fort to infect the water supply with vampire blood to turn the whole fort into vampires. So, I made a corridor of doom (my solution to everything, right?) 75 squares long, each one an upward spike trap holding 10 menacing iron spikes. Yes, that's 750 iron bars. It was worth it. I put a break in the middle and hooked each set of spike traps up to different levers, so I could let the miner who broke the seal escape. I then used burrows to assign 6 peasants to lever duty and not allow them to leave (they had food, drink, and beds) and also set up the burrows so that no other dwarves could use the levers. They were pulling the levers on repeat. If you are wondering just how tough the demons can be, THIS DID NOT STOP ALL THE DEMONS. However, the ones that did make it through were in rough shape, usually with every body part broken. The dwarves promptly put these demons out of their misery and the fort took no injuries. Sweet!
Then I set about producing a large number of rock blocks, building a staircase into the underworld, and then setting up a stockpile for blocks. There are a couple of mistakes here. The plan was to pave over the eerie glowing pits. However, while I didn't finish paving, demons will break through any construction not made of adamantine, so that would not have worked. I should have been doing extensive mining operations to get every last bit of adamantine on the map, then make blocks out of it. I was impatient, because strand extraction takes forever. I had 12 dwarves doing full-time strand extraction, and it took over a year to get the adamantine to fully equip a squad of 10. The other mistake is using a stockpile. Loading up a stockpile will slow down your dwarves, mostly interrupting important jobs, like paving over a hellmouth. The correct choice is to set up a dump zone and dump all the adamantine blocks into hell, unforbid them, bring the military down, and start construction.
Then, I sent my entire military down to hell. I spread them out a bit so as to make sure that my masons could pave multiple hellmouths at once. This was also a mistake. The military should be in an area where everyone helps everyone. Demons come in a tremendous variety of shapes, sizes, and materials. The hammerdwarves made short work of the behemoths made of salt. The speardwarves made short work of the raven brutes. But the reverse did not go so well. To a surprising extent, the marksdwarves, armed with steel bolts, made a huge difference. Things really started to fall apart once they ran out of ammunition. They never killed anything, but under their watch, nothing got to the military in peak condition.
Construction: Stick to one hellmouth at a time. Once you pave a hellmouth, retreat. The demons of the underworld are infinite and your dwarves' reserves are not. They need a break. While there are an infinite number of demons, they don't attack if you have no presence in the underworld.
As I said, things went bad when the marksdwarves ran out of ammunition. It was only a dwarf here and there, but the demons are infinite. There are over 500 slain demons in the deceased log, but after enough dwarves died, moral broke and some fist fights started. When a peasant picks a right with a dwarf in full steel gear that has spent the last decade training for war, it's not pretty. Repeatedly, I saw military respond to a peasant punching them by punching right back. Only, because of their unbelievable strength and skill, I saw little 2's fly everywhere. I looked at this and the 2's were teeth. I looked at the combat log and the peasant's head exploded from one punch. Eventually, the military started to go berserk. And tantrum spirals happen.
I'll try again later and report my results.
-
Sounds fun, especially the first attempt. What exactly means "tantrum spiral marked the end of my fort" in detail, readers want to know. No survivors? Also, in the second attempt more details are needed.
And which version?
-
demons will break through any construction not made of adamantine, so that would not have worked.
What? This is the first I've heard of this. Is it new in 40.14?
I definitely held demons at bay with microcline walls in 34.xx.
-
I think that's either new, or he's heavily mistaken. I've used wooden walls to keep demons away.
-
I like this. While there is a more foolproof method for handling the demons, it's a bit too gamey for my tastes.
-
I think that's either new, or he's heavily mistaken. I've used wooden walls to keep demons away.
it sounds a bit like he put floors over the pits which didn't hold rather than surrounding the pits in walls or something?
-
Surely somebody in 40.14 has built a wall of stone to hold a demon back to have reported on such a change if it happened by now. Maybe not...
Also, you could consider bridges. They cover areas a lot faster. Just scan through the types of demons at your site and see if there are any hot enough to melt your most heat resistant stone on hand, and if not, you're golden.
-
Surely somebody in 40.14 has built a wall of stone to hold a demon back to have reported on such a change if it happened by now. Maybe not...
Also, you could consider bridges. They cover areas a lot faster. Just scan through the types of demons at your site and see if there are any hot enough to melt your most heat resistant stone on hand, and if not, you're golden.
You know, honestly, I haven't seem much in regards to people messing about in hell since the move to 40.xx. Personally, I've been playing around with all the other things. I haven't so much as breached hell since the move to 40.xx, let alone tried to floor over a pit.
Granted, there is nothing in any of the change logs to suggest that the way constructions work has changed.
-
It just means Science must be done.
Who knows, Today may have put some Hidden Fun Stuff in the... Hidden Fun Stuff.
-
If enemies are learning how to deconstruct constructed walls as part of their attacks, sieges will get very interesting indeed. Science is needed on the matter.
-
demons will break through any construction not made of adamantine, so that would not have worked.
What? This is the first I've heard of this. Is it new in 40.14?
I definitely held demons at bay with microcline walls in 34.xx.
This was the most recent version. I would be happy to learn that demons don't break stone walls, because adamantine blocks are a pain to manufacture. But, when you're trying to conquer hell, better safe than sorry. The wiki says that they'll break through anything short of adamantine walls.
Sounds fun, especially the first attempt. What exactly means "tantrum spiral marked the end of my fort" in detail, readers want to know. No survivors? Also, in the second attempt more details are needed.
In the first tantrum spiral, the military started to self-destruct almost immediately after the demons were killed. Fights broke out among dwarves who know nothing but murder. Then friends of the slain dwarves would come down to yell at or fight the killer, which they didn't take well and would remove the source of criticism with whatever steel weapon was available. At some point, a ton of dwarves rushed up to report a crime they had seen and one military dwarf was at the location where crimes were being reported went berserk and made short work of them. Dead animals and pets started showing up all over the fort, driving others over the edge, causing more deaths, driving others over the edge. I restarted, as I didn't see any way I would be able to colonize hell in a reasonable amount of time.
The second tantrum spiral was similar, but slower. The neverending stream of demons with no end in deployment in sight guaranteed it.
Also, you could consider bridges. They cover areas a lot faster. Just scan through the types of demons at your site and see if there are any hot enough to melt your most heat resistant stone on hand, and if not, you're golden.
I like the way you think.
-
I think he took the D for Dwarf section seriously. :o
-
demons will break through any construction not made of adamantine, so that would not have worked.
What? This is the first I've heard of this. Is it new in 40.14?
I definitely held demons at bay with microcline walls in 34.xx.
This was the most recent version. I would be happy to learn that demons don't break stone walls, because adamantine blocks are a pain to manufacture. But, when you're trying to conquer hell, better safe than sorry. The wiki says that they'll break through anything short of adamantine walls.
Where?
Containment is the simplest strategy for dealing with demons. A simple constructed wall will block any demon. Because of their building destroyer status, demons cannot be contained via locked doors. However, indestructible artifact-quality portals can stop them, as can some bridges. (...)
-
I think he took the D for Dwarf section seriously. :o
It was inevitable.
-
demons will break through any construction not made of adamantine, so that would not have worked.
What? This is the first I've heard of this. Is it new in 40.14?
I definitely held demons at bay with microcline walls in 34.xx.
I know one of the D-Rated stories on the wiki refers to demons being able to manipulate all matter but adamantine? Maybe he took it seriously. Otherwise first I'd heard of it too.
EDIT: Just saw this:I think he took the D for Dwarf section seriously. :o
-
Well you know I uncovered hell once in .40.13.
I locked the hatch as soon as I saw the message. But for some reason the demons swarmed the magma sea and made their way in from below the magma workshops.
I don't know how they got into the magma sea in the first place though. Maybe there was a hole somewhere, never checked.
-
demons will break through any construction not made of adamantine, so that would not have worked.
What? This is the first I've heard of this. Is it new in 40.14?
I definitely held demons at bay with microcline walls in 34.xx.
I know one of the D-Rated stories on the wiki refers to demons being able to manipulate all matter but adamantine? Maybe he took it seriously. Otherwise first I'd heard of it too.
EDIT: Just saw this:I think he took the D for Dwarf section seriously. :o
I derped!
-
I don't know how they got into the magma sea in the first place though. Maybe there was a hole somewhere, never checked.
I've had this happen before when I discovered magma with an up/down staircase. They're a common source of non-obvious holes.
-
How bad is the FPS hit for discovering hell? I'm down to 20-35 FPS in my 14 year old fort and I badly want to take a peek but I'm afraid it will make it unplayable.
-
I opened hell by accident the other day. My fps did great, only lost five. It didn't even seem like that many demon, they were mostly mist and salt, with two flesh variations. No gas a spittle or dust, in fact, that was the easiest hell beating I've ever seen.
-
Thanks! In that case I'll make a backup just in case and dig deeply and greedily. Found some candy, now I've got to see the clowns! =3
PS: Of course! Just when I hit post the next thing is: The forgotten beast... blah, blah... made of flame. It killed my guard puppy and is sitting too close to the door to destroy it (I think). Now I have to dig a 2nd entrance...
-
I actually had forgotten about the spires completely, so my unarmed miners actually were holding their own for a bit. But then a guy with a poisonous bite, that apparently swells them, got to them. My real military, 8 legendaries on adamantine, slaughtered hell here. I'm going to find a new map after retiring this fort, with all the adamantine and artifacts in one spot, grab those in adventure mode, haul them to the new home, and drop them off there. I'll eventually have a fort completely armed with artifacts and adamantine.
-
Your military dwarves went insane? I thought "doesn't care about anything anymore" or whatever the equivalent is in the new thought system (unless there isn't one? Haven't played latest version) stopped this?
-
Your military dwarves went insane? I thought "doesn't care about anything anymore" or whatever the equivalent is in the new thought system (unless there isn't one? Haven't played latest version) stopped this?
I don't think it ever stopped it, the trait simply made it easier to avoid by making them unphased by seeing death... of course, the original post didn't say his dwarves had that as one of their traits, simply that they were well armed and had legendary skills
-
I don't think it ever stopped it, the trait simply made it easier to avoid by making them unphased by seeing death... of course, the original post didn't say his dwarves had that as one of their traits, simply that they were well armed and had legendary skills
This was a happy fort until we broke into hell. Everyone was friends with everyone.
-
itg did some cool stuff in the underworld, and his solution to the respawning demon problem was elegant. He placed an indestructible artifact statue in a bunker that could be sealed with drawbridges, the demons went for the statue and where sealed in (build a wall behind the bridge to be super safe). Since there were already demons on the map no more would spawn.
AFAIK you need one demon from each biome you have.
-
It's known that demons do not trigger traps, but that does not mean that traps don't affect them. Upward spike traps can be triggered by a switch, which I did in a previous fort to infect the water supply with vampire blood to turn the whole fort into vampires. So, I made a corridor of doom (my solution to everything, right?) 75 squares long, each one an upward spike trap holding 10 menacing iron spikes. Yes, that's 750 iron bars. It was worth it.
~~~~~~~~~~
==========
~~~~~~~~~~
==========
& &&& &
----------
~ water
~ lava
= retracting bridge
& clown
- floor
-
I'm actually curious, is it worth using steel trap components when dealing with demons?
-
Since the most of them are fleshy, I'd say no. Iron or bronze is how I go if I'm using traps. Webs too, if possible.
-
My plans to conquer hell involve ballistas with silver arrowheads.
Last time I tried, I made a minecart railgun badly, and the flying demons escaped through into the fort.
(I have never succeeded at conquering hell.)
-
I'm very interested in the excessively complicated idea of making a repeating cave in trap for demons. You'd need a freezing biome like a glacier (because why the Hell not), but basically you just allow water to flow into an exposed tile a little bit at a time, it forms a floor because there's less than 4/7 water in the tile, and it collapses because the tile is surrounded by bridges/floodgates rather than proper walls and floors.
But, having built all that gearing and stuff, you could reliably cage trap demons. Without manually reloading the trap each time. Which would be nice. I originally thought of it for FBs actually, but demons are basically the same thing.
Z LEVEL 3
---
~B-
---
Z LEVEL 2
----X-
-+BH.X
----X-
Z LEVEL 1
--------
----CCC-
---D++CP
----CCC-
--------
- wall
+ floor
. open space
X floodgate (always closed)
H floor hatch (always closed)
~ water source
P pressure plate
B bridge, raising on z2 and retracting on z3. Both linked to the pressure plate
D a door or any other furniture
C cage trap
All aligned to the left of the blueprint. The extra space in the water airlock thing is so that the 7/7 water spreads out enough to only be exposed as less than 4/7. Also that open space on z2 has to be exposed to the sky, else the whole thing is an excessively complicated waterfall decorated with cage traps.
I have yet to embark on a freezing biome and actually enjoy it long enough to get this built though so if someone would like to do this and report their findings I'd be quite happy :)
-
Wouldn't demon flight and temp be a huge problem?
It seems like either a flying demon would 'take the hit' helping others sneak through or the temp from the demon would melt components of the design and/or boil away the water or something of that nature. At the very least it seems like you'd need an object made of something extremely temp resistant.
-
I've never heard of a high temp demon or FB melting ice before. Is that a thing? Also the temp would have to be incredibly high to boil off water it's not in contact with, since even magma filling the level below won't do that. If the water doesn't boil off, the ice will form, and since cave ins are instant there is no chance of it melting on the way down or something. The only concern is the cages and the mechanisms for the traps and pressure plate. At the very least, steel would take temperatures as hot as magma, and Adamantine would definitely be resistant enough, right?
-
Are there any demons that will boil water?
-
I don't honestly know. The fire ones got picked off by my marksdwarves before they reached the watery battlefield in my last attempt. I do know that they can cause booze to boil very explosively though.
-
I once killed a demon Lord during a goblin siege (he had a deadly dust that put everyone to sleep, including gobblos. My hammer dorfs had such fun.) I breached hell and lost like half the fort and built a tomb at the bottom for that Lord. No regrets.
Advice for anyone wanting to colonize hell, build an archer platform where your staircase exits the spire, with fortifications and all. Your markdorfs can cover your workers as they hastily build a fortified pillar downwards.