Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: thryn on February 22, 2011, 01:50:40 am
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Air and skulls, anyway. Butchering them only results in piles of bunny skulls and no fat, skin, meat, nervous tissue, etc. Anyone else have this problem? I thought I was being super clever by embarking with rabbits, since they do in fact breed like rabbits, but I only need so many bunny totems cluttering up the place...
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It's probably the same as with small cats and kittens; they're too small according to the game to produce usable material besides a skull. Invest in goats since they provide meat as well as milk.
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Yes, it's the result of them being so small.
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It's probably the same as with small cats and kittens; they're too small according to the game to produce usable material besides a skull. Invest in goats since they provide meat as well as milk.
True, and yet the traders somehow bring us prepared fly brains.... I think we're better off not knowing how.
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Since .19 came out, I've tried butchering birds and cavies several times and received nothing but a skull. Are full-grown turkey and chicken hens supposed to be so small they yield no edible products? I thought this was a common bug.
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It should be a bug, especially in the light of chickens being able to pop out a dozen or more perfectly edible eggs at a time. Bunnies, chickens, cavies etc. should definitely give at least one unit of meat and some innards.
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Since .19 came out, I've tried butchering birds and cavies several times and received nothing but a skull. Are full-grown turkey and chicken hens supposed to be so small they yield no edible products? I thought this was a common bug.
I've got lots of turkey leather and meat and bones and such.
Huge pile of duck corpses though. Can't seem to butcher them.
These have all been wild ones that were shot by hunters though, if that's a difference?
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My hens make meat and intestines, that's about it. Well, bones and skulls too, and the number of them means... well... ;)
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Since .19 came out, I've tried butchering birds and cavies several times and received nothing but a skull. Are full-grown turkey and chicken hens supposed to be so small they yield no edible products? I thought this was a common bug.
I've got lots of turkey leather and meat and bones and such.
Huge pile of duck corpses though. Can't seem to butcher them.
These have all been wild ones that were shot by hunters though, if that's a difference?
I've had problems with Slain animals not being butcherred, but it seems to happen at random when they're not pets (it probably has a very formulaic cause, though). I think that problem used to be a lot worse. Could it maybe be caused by the corpses being forbidden? Do you have all the "claim other dead" and "collect refuse from outside" options toggled to on?
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a bunny isn't full-grown until he reaches age 2 (body size starts at 50, grows to 250 at age 1 when they stop being childs, then grows to 500 again at age 2). maybe you'll get one meat once they're 2 years old? haven't tried this though, just something I noticed for my own meat-industry: many animals continue growing after they're adults
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I've got lots of turkey leather and meat and bones and such.
Huge pile of duck corpses though. Can't seem to butcher them.
These have all been wild ones that were shot by hunters though, if that's a difference?
I've had problems with Slain animals not being butcherred, but it seems to happen at random when they're not pets (it probably has a very formulaic cause, though). I think that problem used to be a lot worse. Could it maybe be caused by the corpses being forbidden? Do you have all the "claim other dead" and "collect refuse from outside" options toggled to on?
The hunters will take the duck corpses to the butcher shops. The farmers then cancel the job, with the "need butcherable corpse" message thing, and take the duck corpse to the refuse tip.
Corpses aren't forbidden or anything that I can see that is different.
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a bunny isn't full-grown until he reaches age 2 (body size starts at 50, grows to 250 at age 1 when they stop being childs, then grows to 500 again at age 2). maybe you'll get one meat once they're 2 years old? haven't tried this though, just something I noticed for my own meat-industry: many animals continue growing after they're adults
I'm fairly confidant they don't continue to grow, however if in it's description it says any about being muscular that animal will produce more meat(weak means less).
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a bunny isn't full-grown until he reaches age 2 (body size starts at 50, grows to 250 at age 1 when they stop being childs, then grows to 500 again at age 2). maybe you'll get one meat once they're 2 years old? haven't tried this though, just something I noticed for my own meat-industry: many animals continue growing after they're adults
I'm fairly confidant they don't continue to grow, however if in it's description it says any about being muscular that animal will produce more meat(weak means less).
Dwarves get fatter after they hit adulthood. I got the impression that this wasn't just due to skill increases. Perhaps now that animals eat, they too can get fat/emaciated?
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Tame animals can always be slaughtered at a butcher's shop, so long as they're not vermin-size. Very small tame animals may not yield anything more than a skull, because they aren't large enough to yield even a single unit of meat or bones. Tame animals that die from any means other than being deliberately slaughtered by a dwarf at a butcher's shop can't be butchered.
Wild animal corpses can be butchered regardless of how they died, but if the animal is too small to yield even a single unit of meat or bone, the butcher will refuse to touch it. This happens more often with mutilated corpses or body parts, because they are smaller than a single corpse, but the refusal to butcher is based on the size, not the fact that the corpse is mutilated or how it died. This is why you get dead duck and rabbit corpses littering your refuse piles that your butcher will refuse to touch.
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Wild animal corpses can be butchered regardless of how they died, but if the animal is too small to yield even a single unit of meat or bone, the butcher will refuse to touch it. This is why you get dead duck and rabbit corpses littering your refuse piles that your butcher will refuse to touch.
Any idea what the minimum size is? iirc, ducks are pretty small. only size 1000 or so. Cats seem to be size 2000 minimum, though kittens are 500.
Also, will the duck corpses at least rot?
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I had a breeding colony of rabbits, selected for gigantic and muscular. I got nothing from them all but skulls. I stopped taking rabbits and cavys with me because of this. I hadn't realized that the poultry were also duds. Since we can take meat from them at embark, it only seems fair that we should be able to get some from butchering ourselves. My butcher was "competant". Having butchered rabbits personally, there isn't very much hard about it. You hang the corpse by the heels, strip off the fur, cut off the head, slit the belly, dump out the guts, cut off the feet, and joint it somewhat like a chicken. Not nearly as tedious as butchering a deer.
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a bunny isn't full-grown until he reaches age 2 (body size starts at 50, grows to 250 at age 1 when they stop being childs, then grows to 500 again at age 2). maybe you'll get one meat once they're 2 years old? haven't tried this though, just something I noticed for my own meat-industry: many animals continue growing after they're adults
I'm fairly confidant they don't continue to grow, however if in it's description it says any about being muscular that animal will produce more meat(weak means less).
Dwarves get fatter after they hit adulthood. I got the impression that this wasn't just due to skill increases. Perhaps now that animals eat, they too can get fat/emaciated?
Animals DO continue to grow. In the raws of an animal (here the rabbit as example), you'll find this entry:
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:50]
[BODY_SIZE:1:0:250]
[BODY_SIZE:2:0:500]
This means the rabbit will be size 50 starting at year 0, day 0, then grow to size 250 at year 1, day 0 and finally reach size 500 at year 2, day 0.
Animals that are (according to their description) fat will produce more fat, muscular more meat, and big ones... not sure, but might be both.
As I said though, I don't know if size 500 would be enough to net you flesh. Since chicken were reported not to give any and are size 60 (chick), 1500 (adult!) and 3000 (2 years old), I guess rabbits won't ever give flesh until/unless butchery is reworked
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Really does sound like this should be reworked. I doubt rabbits are intended to be skull farms.
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So what's the smallest grazing livestock that yields meat on butchering? Goats?
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Are you butchering outside? I noticed a long stream of creatures being butchered outside on scorching maps not giving anything, then I moved them inside and I started getting things. It maybe that they are evaporating or rotting instantly in outside conditions. Haven't tested it enough yet to tell definitively though.
Edit: Just butchered a new born peachick and got 8 units of meat at an indoor butchery. I think its related to temperatures.
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Let me see... here's the relevant list:
ALL of the grazer creatures:
ANIMAL GRAZER CREATURE_SIZE
elephant 12 5000000
rhinoceros 20 3000000
draltha 24 2500000
water buffalo 60 1000000
giraffe 60 1000000
yak 85 700000
cow 100 600000
unicorn 100 600000
horse 120 500000
camel 1 120 500000
camel 2 120 500000
mule 150 400000
donkey 200 300000
elk 200 300000
muskox 210 285000
llama 333 180000
deer 428 140000
reindeer 461 130000
warthog 600 100000
elk bird 600 100000 (lays eggs, dies of starvation on the nest box!)
alpaca 857 70000
pig 1000 60000
sheep 1200 50000
goat 1200 50000
mtn goat 1200 50000
gazelle 3000 20000
hoary marmot 6000 10000
groundhog 20000 3000
cavy 75000 800
rabbit 120000 500
Creature size is proportional to the amount of meat that they yield when slaughtered. So a horse requires 10x more grass than a goat. A goat requires 100x more grass than a rabbit. An elephant requires 10x more grass than a horse, or 100x more than a goat, or 10000x more than a rabbit.
So I can't have a war elephant herd anymore?
Now then, a quick wiki check says mountain goats give 9 meat, although you need to wait until they are 2 years old before they hit full size (only being 1/5 that size beforehand). That means we probably need a little over a creature size of 5,000 before it gives any meat at all.
Turkeys have a maximum size of 5,000, but only after 2 years. Unfortunately, this means that only the beefiest of turkeys have a chance of producing any meat at all. (It's a pity Toady makes all these things round numbers...)
I'm going to go make a wiki page for this stuff so I don't have to search the forums again...
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Granted, turkeys provide eggs, so their food value is ENORMOUS if kept alive.
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Are you butchering outside? I noticed a long stream of creatures being butchered outside on scorching maps not giving anything, then I moved them inside and I started getting things. It maybe that they are evaporating or rotting instantly in outside conditions. Haven't tested it enough yet to tell definitively though.
Edit: Just butchered a new born peachick and got 8 units of meat at an indoor butchery. I think its related to temperatures.
I just this moment slaughtered a normal gander in my outdoor butchery and got 8 units of goose meat. I never got any cavy or rabbit meat under the same conditions, not even from gigantic, muscular rabbits.
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Alright, let me run some quick bunny slaughters and test.
Edit: Hmm. Yeah, even indoors no products. Odd. Well, can always add the trainable tag to them and have an army of war rabbits.
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Chain them outside, cheap sentinels for detecting ambushes.
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Well ideally we'll some day be able to slaughter them, dress the corpse, and allow the corpse to be roasted whole for a nice meal or two. But it does seem like this needs some work. Looks like people have already made bug reports about it on the tracker.
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=78061.0
I went and made a quick suggestion in response to this thread.
If we have a 5% chance of getting a unit of meat, it should be a reasonable facsimilie of having to slaughter 20 rabbits to get one unit of meat, so I think that should be a generally sane way of handling these things.
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I have a mental image of floating undead skulls, with loose kitten/rabbit skin around them.
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Looks like goats/sheep are the best choice for embark meat/food/craft production. They require little grazing so you can have more of them meandering the pen before it's devoid of grass. The sheep give wool and the goats milk.
I suppose you could keep rabbits as pure pets and have tantrum spirals when they haven't grazed for a while down the mineshaft.
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Alright, let me run some quick bunny slaughters and test.
Edit: Hmm. Yeah, even indoors no products. Odd. Well, can always add the trainable tag to them and have an army of war rabbits.
Oh god. With their sharp pointy teeth!
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<Insert Monty Python reference here>
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Alright, let me run some quick bunny slaughters and test.
Edit: Hmm. Yeah, even indoors no products. Odd. Well, can always add the trainable tag to them and have an army of war rabbits.
Oh god. With their sharp pointy teeth!
RUN AWAAAAAAAAY!!!
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Looks like goats/sheep are the best choice for embark meat/food/craft production. They require little grazing so you can have more of them meandering the pen before it's devoid of grass. The sheep give wool and the goats milk.
I suppose you could keep rabbits as pure pets and have tantrum spirals when they haven't grazed for a while down the mineshaft.
Birds, for the most part, aren't grazers yet, so they're also a good buy, so long as they are large enough to produce meat. (Plus they're all dirt cheap, and practically shoot eggs out like some kind of avian gattling gun.)
Turkeys are the largest birds (5,000 at two years, remember, 1 year to adulthood, but 2 years to full growth). Turkeys also lay 10-14 eggs at a time. This should make turkeys the best purchase for food production potential, followed by geese and peacocks, which are up to 4,500 and 4,000 in size, respectively. Geese lay much half the eggs, however.
Nothing seems to lay more eggs than turkeys, though, so hey, make yourself some turkey sandwiches with boiled turkey eggs on top. (Now we just need to make some turkey egg mayonaise...)
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Looks like goats/sheep are the best choice for embark meat/food/craft production. They require little grazing so you can have more of them meandering the pen before it's devoid of grass. The sheep give wool and the goats milk.
I suppose you could keep rabbits as pure pets and have tantrum spirals when they haven't grazed for a while down the mineshaft.
Birds, for the most part, aren't grazers yet, so they're also a good buy, so long as they are large enough to produce meat. (Plus they're all dirt cheap, and practically shoot eggs out like some kind of avian gattling gun.)
Turkeys are the largest birds (5,000 at two years, remember, 1 year to adulthood, but 2 years to full growth). Turkeys also lay 10-14 eggs at a time. This should make turkeys the best purchase for food production potential, followed by geese and peacocks, which are up to 4,500 and 4,000 in size, respectively. Geese lay much half the eggs, however.
Nothing seems to lay more eggs than turkeys, though, so hey, make yourself some turkey sandwiches with boiled turkey eggs on top. (Now we just need to make some turkey egg mayonaise...)
That shouldn't be hard. I'd suggest globs, however, instead of liquids, since I've heard reports that using liquid foodstuffs is hard.
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That shouldn't be hard. I'd suggest globs, however, instead of liquids, since I've heard reports that using liquid foodstuffs is hard.
Research time!
Hmmm... apparently, you need egg, oil (hello, use for oil!), and either vinegar or lemon juice (vinegar is just alcohol you leave out too long, right?)
I guess that means that, unless we want to make a special "make vinegar" reaction, then we just mix those three together (maybe 2 egg, 2 oil and 1 alcohol?) to make a stack of 5 mayonnaise?
I'd honestly rather it be a liquid if possible, so that it doesn't get used as the main ingredient of a food, but I haven't tried modding food yet, so I'm not sure on that.
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<Insert Monty Python reference here>
New megabeast: Vorpal rabbit
prefstring: nasty, big, pointy teeth
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I had an idea that I hesitated to bring forth, due to trickiness to program plus probably already being planned.
Make training war and hunting animals dependent on new castes that the critter gets converted into. Thus, you could indeed get a war rabbit with speed:100 and massive slashing damage with its bite, rather then the current hard coded variant it has.
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Make training a caste-level token? I'm not sure, it'd be easy to do but may not actually work.
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That shouldn't be hard. I'd suggest globs, however, instead of liquids, since I've heard reports that using liquid foodstuffs is hard.
Research time!
Hmmm... apparently, you need egg, oil (hello, use for oil!), and either vinegar or lemon juice (vinegar is just alcohol you leave out too long, right?)
I guess that means that, unless we want to make a special "make vinegar" reaction, then we just mix those three together (maybe 2 egg, 2 oil and 1 alcohol?) to make a stack of 5 mayonnaise?
I'd honestly rather it be a liquid if possible, so that it doesn't get used as the main ingredient of a food, but I haven't tried modding food yet, so I'm not sure on that.
Who needs vinegar when you can have the extremely dwarven +wild turkey dwarven ale mayonaise+?
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A link to a post I just made on the modding side, regarding science I did on this issue.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=78108.0
TL;DR - critters need to be over size 2000 to return any bones, meat, or fat. This does not include rabbits or cavy, but a 2-year chicken or turkey is fine.
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Ah, so the problem, then, is that people aren't waiting until 2 years of age?
(Well, and the fact that "immature adults" are 2/5ths the size of a "full adult" for some odd reason.)
Who needs vinegar when you can have the extremely dwarven +wild turkey dwarven ale mayonaise+?
I'm not sure something can be made of the name of two different materials at the same time, although alcoholic mayonnaise certainly sounds dwarfy.
Apparently, what you use depends on where you live. The Spanish have different recepies from the French, and the French use mustard in the recepie (which also involves vinegar).
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no, rabbits will never grow big enough to yield any meat, getting only to about size 500 at age 2. Chickens however grow to about size 3000 when they're 2 years old, so they should yield some meat according to that table.
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The human caravan just brought me a stack of rabbit meat [5]
I can see where special delicacies like monarch butterfly brains only come from caravans- they can't be butchered by dorfs. Rabbits, however, can. I'll go perform some science to see if waiting 2 years will provide delicious rabbit fricassee.
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If you could butcher monarch butterflies, they would be too small to yield brains or any other meat. The meats you can get in caravans are not restricted by the actual size of animals, so you can get meats that you will never get from animals from the caravan.
When you butcher an animal, DF first breaks it down into all of its independent body parts, then checks the size of each one against a fixed limit. Each body part that's over a certain size then contributes one or more of each tissue type in that body part. There is therefore some weirdness where the minimum size for an animal to produce meat and the amount of meat you get is partially determined by the number of body parts the animal has. Rabbits have to have a minimum size of 1729 before they give any meat. Rabbits have a maximum adult size of 500, so even with creature size variation they'll never get large enough to yield any meat.
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Well damn, now what do i do with this breeding pair of rabbits?
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Slaughter them, make skull totems, and then trade the totems for egg-laying birds.
Currently birds seem to produce a crapload of eggs very quickly, and they aren't very expensive in embark points. Embark with 10 of them and the dwarves will be full with egg mcmuffins for the rest of their lives.
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I started with 50 turkey hens, end of the first year I think I had something like 2000 eggs. Be forewarned that it takes FOREVER to cook eggs into meals since two stacks take a kitchen to full clutter status. Then a couple of vultures ran to my nests and slaughtered all my turkeys.
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I used multiple kitchens and cooks, cooking easy meals, and it wasn't too bad....