Bay 12 Games Forum

Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Callista on November 09, 2011, 05:30:47 am

Title: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Callista on November 09, 2011, 05:30:47 am
The challenge: Liberalize the country, starting from Nightmare mode (CCS optional) without ever breaking the law. This includes breaking the law whether or not anybody sees you doing it, whether or not it goes on your record. So, no unlocking doors, no being where you're not supposed to be, no kidnapping, no graffiti, no public disturbances... which means no Juice, not for a long time. Even playing the guitar to the Conservatives generates loitering charges, so that wasn't allowed either.

Yes, it's possible...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Do other possible strategies exist?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Elodie Hiras on November 09, 2011, 07:28:14 am
I think sleepers snooping around don't count as a crime, if they get caught, they are just fired.

Apart from that, I knew it was possible, but incredibly boring.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Neonivek on November 09, 2011, 08:16:08 am
Isn't plotting against the government illegal?

Or heck... Just being the LCS in Nightmare mode (where they likely repealed the "right of association") illegal in esssence?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Coronel_Niel on November 09, 2011, 11:21:52 am
"What was amusing about all of this was that killing off the CCS generated a lot of Heat without ever causing anybody to get charged with anything; so the safehouse was raided three times in total"

"his includes breaking the law whether or not anybody sees you doing it, whether or not it goes on your record."

Herp.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Bardum Idith on November 09, 2011, 12:51:32 pm
"What was amusing about all of this was that killing off the CCS generated a lot of Heat without ever causing anybody to get charged with anything; so the safehouse was raided three times in total"

"his includes breaking the law whether or not anybody sees you doing it, whether or not it goes on your record."

Herp.
From an elite liberal viewpoint CCS members aren't human and thus not protceted by the law...
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 09, 2011, 01:20:58 pm
There are ideas for enabling the CCS to be destroyed non-violently (exposing scandals about their supporters, maybe turning the police on them), but in the current game, this is the best you can do if they're enabled. To do this without breaking the law AT ALL, the game should be set to classic mode -- otherwise, an exception has to be made for attacking the CCS.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Servant Corps on November 09, 2011, 01:27:25 pm
There are ideas for enabling the CCS to be destroyed non-violently (exposing scandals about their supporters, maybe turning the police on them), but in the current game, this is the best you can do if they're enabled. To do this without breaking the law AT ALL, the game should be set to classic mode -- otherwise, an exception has to be made for attacking the CCS.
I still think it's possible to deal with the CCS anyway, as long as you have enough sleepers to dampen their assaults, though you probably need to disband soon before the CCS finds out. I wish I had the time or patience to try it out.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Grimith on November 09, 2011, 05:28:29 pm
The OP is inherently flawed. If the challenge is to avoid breaking the law "whether or not anyone sees you do it, whether or not it goes on your record," then murdering anyone - even members of the CCS at one of their safehouses - violates the challenge. You'd either have to leave the CCS disabled in the game options or win the game without destroying the CCS.

Leaving the CCS alive isn't so bad. They often go on rampages, and cycling between your safehouses allows you to escape potential attacks (although it can be time-consuming). With enough folks advocating Liberalism, I imagine you would eventually get over the "Free Speech to Conservatism" hump and run the Liberal Guardian the rest of the way to victory.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Callista on November 09, 2011, 08:32:36 pm
If the law doesn't consider it murder to kill a Conservative at a CCS safehouse, then it's not a crime. I tested this--go in, kill one Conservative while another one is watching; after you leave, you don't have murder on your record. I guess it's similar to the way a soldier killing an enemy soldier in battle has not committed a crime.

You also don't get charged with murder for killing guard dogs at C+ to L, or tanks, or genetic nightmares.

Yeah, you can shut down the CCS without killing anybody by having a lot of sleepers there. You don't actually destroy them; your sleepers just make them ineffectual. I'm not sure how it works--but with five sleepers at the CCS, they didn't start raiding again for quite a long time after destruction of a safehouse.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: EuchreJack on November 09, 2011, 09:22:40 pm
"What was amusing about all of this was that killing off the CCS generated a lot of Heat without ever causing anybody to get charged with anything; so the safehouse was raided three times in total"

"his includes breaking the law whether or not anybody sees you doing it, whether or not it goes on your record."

Herp.
From an elite liberal viewpoint CCS members aren't human and thus not protceted by the law...

This is flawed thinking.  Elite Liberals think terrorists and animals are human, thus they would also "extend liberal love" to the CCS members.  As the Elite Liberal thinking goes, the CCS members aren't bad, just misguided.  They need re-education and re-introduction in Elite Liberal society.

Which points out why killing the CCS sort of breaks the "no crime" run.  It's not against the Conservative Legal System...it's against basic Elite Liberal Human Rights.

In a society that views the death penalty as barbaric, killing the CCS members must seem inhuman.

Still, I applaud the OP for running a near-perfect "no crime" run: It must have been really boring, and far more work than I'd be willing to put into it.  Give me action in my games, every time.  Kudos.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 09, 2011, 11:08:28 pm
The reason killing CCS members doesn't go on your criminal record is because the CCS is another criminal organization which wants to steer clear of the police just as much as you do. The CCS doesn't EVER call the police for help, so your crimes go unreported. It's not that it isn't illegal; the police just never find out.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Callista on November 10, 2011, 04:09:21 am
Shutting them down with sleepers seems to be the best option, then. I just started with the CCS active since it seemed to give me an extra obstacle to overcome. Next time I'll just use sleepers. Seducing them directly from the CCS safehouse will be possible once that first sleeper gives away the location.

For the record--and it wasn't actually boring. Lots of recruiting, dating, managing sleepers, managing funds... You have to be pretty choosy about who you recruit when you know they'll likely never gain any juice. And yeah, waiting; but holding down the "w" key will make a month pass in a couple of seconds.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: tahujdt on October 08, 2012, 03:12:06 pm
Holy necro, Batman!
Anyway, in the latest edition you can publish a CCS backer list that will destroy the CCS inside of a year. The masterminds behind the CCS are exposed and arrested. But, I don't know how to get it besides hacking the CIA supercomputer.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on October 09, 2012, 01:06:17 pm
Holy necro, Batman!
Anyway, in the latest edition you can publish a CCS backer list that will destroy the CCS inside of a year. The masterminds behind the CCS are exposed and arrested. But, I don't know how to get it besides hacking the CIA supercomputer.

There is another way!

It's pretty rare that you'd be in that circumstance though.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: tahujdt on October 09, 2012, 02:53:17 pm
If it's rare, how? CCS Sleepers? Once, I had a guy with 28 Charisma and maxed out persuasion, and he could recruit CEOs by just talking to them. So I would recruit CCS vigilantes and send them back upon the safehouses.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on October 09, 2012, 03:18:25 pm
If you recruit a CCS sleeper to promote liberalism, and nobody notices it, does it still make a noise?

That, uh, got kinda out of hand there.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on October 09, 2012, 05:59:46 pm
You have to make a sleeper of one of the CCS bosses, the "hardened veterans" in heavy body armor, then have that sleeper snoop around for secrets. They can deliver a backer list to the homeless shelter.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: tahujdt on October 10, 2012, 07:30:01 pm
Huh, I didn't realize that hardened veterans were CCS bosses. I thought it meant military veterans. Do they have a talking attack too, or just M16s?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on October 11, 2012, 01:21:35 am
Chances are, they're actually both. Kind of like how the LCS founder can be something like a professional thief.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ff2 on October 11, 2012, 09:56:04 pm
I'm pretty much elite liberal, it's mostly liberal laws, but I have a elite liberal president, all elite liberal supreme court, and elite liberal congress and senate. Everything I did was seduce people and make them write news. I sold bondage gear and bought a printing press, and waited until the free speech became conservative to write more papers. It's been over 20 years but everything is going smooth now.

Edit: I won!
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Corai on October 11, 2012, 10:43:06 pm
I'm pretty much elite liberal, it's mostly liberal laws, but I have a elite liberal president, all elite liberal supreme court, and elite liberal congress and senate. Everything I did was seduce people and make them write news. I sold bondage gear and bought a printing press, and waited until the free speech became conservative to write more papers. It's been over 20 years but everything is going smooth now.

Edit: I won!

Tell me how...
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Jboy2000000 on October 12, 2012, 01:59:55 am
I'm pretty much elite liberal, it's mostly liberal laws, but I have a elite liberal president, all elite liberal supreme court, and elite liberal congress and senate. Everything I did was seduce people and make them write news. I sold bondage gear and bought a printing press, and waited until the free speech became conservative to write more papers. It's been over 20 years but everything is going smooth now.

Edit: I won!

Tell me how...
It ain't that hard. You just need to get the Elite Liberal Amendment, and then you have to do it again, except with an extra House/Senate roll.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on October 12, 2012, 02:02:31 am
Yeah, pretty much. All the other justices will then be branded arch-conservatives and deported into select conservative countries.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on October 25, 2012, 09:20:05 pm
Having seen this thread, I decided to give it a go, except I wans't going to permit myself to attack the CCS.

I've outlined my strategy below, followed by some comments on what I learned from it (I'm faily new to LCS, so I made some poor errors).

I started out by having the founder take mostly the intelligence options, with a couple charisma ones, so he ended up with 15 INT and 9 CHA. I then immediately recruited six liberal judges, as they have such high stats (I wanted at least 9 INT on each one, with high CHA). I had them solicit donations for money while the founder trained up tailoring with the money and provided them all with expensive suits. Then, one-by-one, I got each of the judges to recruit sleepers while the others solicted donations and the founder made and sold expensive suits. The first judge got four firemen, the second got four judges, the third got four policemen, the fourth got four radio station empoyees and the fifth got four cable station employees. I intended for the sixth to infiltrate the CCS so I could publish the backer list as soon as free speech went C. I managed to get one of the door guards at the gentlemen's club as a sleeper, and after much trying managed to get the CCS hideout location from someone (who ended the relationship before they could be recruited as a sleeper). I spent ages trying to get the hardened veteran as a sleeper, but I had no success (I can only assume that the lack of juice was holding me back).

Once all that was done, it was about 2012/2013 and I had about 55K stored up, which lasted me the rest of the game (I finished on about 30K). My only expenditure from then until the end of the game was buying upgrades for the safehouses and paying the 100/month rent on the safehouse that I started with. I had everybody train writing by writing to newspapers until they hit their cap, while the sleepers gained effectiveness. Once everybody was trained up, I would start rotating the sleepers by having them promote liberalism when they hit 80% and stop when they hit 60%. Over the next few years, I was able to get a couple laws to C instead of C+, usually gun control laws. It wasn't until 2018 that free speech hit C.

I immediately bought a printing press, and moved everybody to the safehouse with it in. Expecting a siege from the CCS at some point, I bought a few extras (fortified compound, some rations, security cameras, traps, generator) so I could slip out and avoid any danger. However, the CCS never attacked me. They were certainly very active (newspapers popping up every few days), but none of it affected me.

I turned everybody onto writing for the liberal guardian. I also got some of my sleepers to start uncovering evidence, hoping to get some special editions out. However, only the police station sleepers were able to provide me with anything. My best uess for this would be that only certain people from locations can provide evidence, and as I just recruited the first I came across, I couldn't get anything from them. I printed the liberal guardian for 6 months, until congress turned free speech back to C+, at which point I went to the same tactics I used beforehand. There didn't seem to be very uch effect form that six-month stint - the congress elections went the same way they had done before (overwhelming C+ majority), though the president did go to C. A year after it was made illegal, it was made legal again, and I resumed my printing strategy.

Once again, the elections went the same way as always for a while, until in 2021 and early 2022, the clearing out congress amendment was proposed three times, succeeding on the third attempt. Six months later, the supreme court amendment was proposed successfully. From that point on, it was just holding down w and waiting for the laws to turn to L+ one-by-one, with nothing interesting happening. Victory was finally achieved in november 2026.

In hindsight, there are quite a few ways to improve the method. I only recruited 6 people with my founder, though I could have recruited 7 (I wanted to keep a spare slot for emergencies). Similarly, each of the judges I recruited could in turn have more than four sleepers, I only stopped at four because I knew that further additions would get more difficult, though still possible. Incidentally, does anyone know the limit for sleepers recruited?

The sleepers themselves could be changed as well. I wanted to get a range of sleepers to ensure I had a range of topics to publish a special edition on, but in hindsight special editions were not as important as I expected. Instead, it would probably be more efficient to choose sleepers such that public attention is drawn to free speech as fast as possible, so you can take advantage of the liberal guardian as fast as possible.

The lack of juice is an absolute pain. It means that starting stats are what you will be stuck with. I couldn't find any way of increasing juice without a criminal record being gained, so I was stuck with no stats higher than 10 on my recruits. Even worse, I accidentally booked two dates with one of the recruited judges, netting him -5 juice. Although he was able to get his juice back to 0 with community service, the founder suffered a -1 to juice (bringing him to 49) that I had no way of fixing, reducing his stats by 2. It happened before I was able to max out his skills, so all of his writing was done at 13 skill instead of 15.

The part of the game that the most happened was the start. In the first few years, all the recruitments were made, all the money was obtained and all the skills were trained. After that, it was just passing time, with checks on the effectiveness of the sleepers. Although the CCS didn't pose any in-game problems, they were very irritating anyway, as their antics would cause the in-game newspaper announcements to appear, and w doesn't skip those. When it happens several times a month, it increases the playing time by an awful lot.

I have tried a couple times what would be the escalation of this challenge - only one active member. I can conclude that if you only have one active member, you do need sleeper agents, as without there is no way of drawing enough attention to free speech in order to get the liberal guardian out. It may be possible to do it with sleepers, but if it is possible it would only barely be possible. I tried it a few times and failed, though I was using inefficient sleeper layouts for those attempts. I don't know enough about how the sleepers promoting liberalism works to determine an optimal layout, though.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Soadreqm on October 28, 2012, 11:53:56 am
Why couldn't your founder Community Serve his way back to 0 juice?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on October 28, 2012, 02:42:39 pm
Why couldn't your founder Community Serve his way back to 0 juice?

The founder started the game with 50 juice. Losing 1 juice brought him to 49 juice, and community service can't fix that.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: lastofthelight on October 31, 2012, 12:15:26 pm
An interesting challenge concept, but a bit flawed. Rather then not breaking the law, you should go for nonviolence. That would mean no killing or violence of any sort, no theft, no immoral actions in any means. So attacking the crime squad members is out. Lying or manipulation is out (no seducing sleeper agents). Songs and public protests are acceptable, creating a disturbance without theft or violence is acceptable.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: KA101 on October 31, 2012, 05:59:05 pm
That's a pretty broad definition of nonviolence, and since Liberal Disobedience includes violent action (paint on coats is technically assault under most criminal laws IRL) that's out.  No getting items during a site action as well as no seducing means that Special Editions will probably be limited to judges, media, and (really late in the game) police records.  (Hacking the Supercomputer probably qualifies.  It's a pretty weird set of priorities that would allow getting the Data Disc but not Secret Documents, IMO.)

Would graffiti qualify as violence?  How about jury tampering?  Opening cells may not be violent but certainly promotes violent action (whether by LEOs trying to recapture, by escaping prisoners, or by violent offenders reoffending).

I"m guessing media takeovers are acceptable if the place already went Alarmed; before that there's an actual studio-takeover which might involve pushing someone out of the way.

As for activations: no credit card fraud, no hacking, no prostitution, arguably no brownies, no profitable Liberal Tailoring (since no Fine Cloth), and, if in Nightmare Mode, effectively no Guardian because the Firemen will burn it every time.

So: writing to newspapers, selling art/music/T-shirts, volunteering, asking donations, media takeovers*, and I'm hard pressed to think of much else one could accomplish.  Maybe opening rabbit cages (is disruption of research animals "immoral"?), but genetic animals might rampage and cause violence. (Smashing machinery is certainly violent if theft is!)

*Come to think of it, "no lying or manipulation" would include no Disguise/Bluff.  Getting out just got tougher!

I'd say it's possible, but would be even more of a grindfest.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 02, 2012, 06:06:40 am
I've made a few attempts on the no seduction+no crime+no active recruits challenge, and I'm having dissapointing progress. I've had the founder write to newspapers with 15 skill and seven fireman sleeper agents promoting liberalism with effectiveness between 60% and 80% for about seven years, and public opinion on expanding free speech is sitting at 0%. I've had other laws (Gun control and Nuclear power) briefly go to C (and once M), but free speech is a difficult one. Is there a better sleeper for free speech than firemen, or a better activity than newspaper writing?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: BoxOfAids on November 02, 2012, 09:43:10 am
I've made a few attempts on the no seduction+no crime+no active recruits challenge, and I'm having dissapointing progress. I've had the founder write to newspapers with 15 skill and seven fireman sleeper agents promoting liberalism with effectiveness between 60% and 80% for about seven years, and public opinion on expanding free speech is sitting at 0%. I've had other laws (Gun control and Nuclear power) briefly go to C (and once M), but free speech is a difficult one. Is there a better sleeper for free speech than firemen, or a better activity than newspaper writing?
I'm actually not sure if Firemen affect issues at all as sleepers. I know firefighters do, from the code:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But I'm not sure if Firemen are included in that. If they're not included as Firefighters, then they each affect a random issue, and not Free Speech specifically. Seems like this code is for if you have firefighter sleepers, then the free speech issue drops to C+, then suddenly they start adding power, but they do nothing otherwise. Again, still not sure if Firemen are included in Firefighters (though I doubt it).

It seems like the best ones to have for free speech would be Agents, Conservative Judges, and Actors (they all affect Free Speech laws, in addition to others). Also it seems like Radio Personalities and New Anchors affect most, if not all, of the issues (if I'm reading this right). But they lose power as people lose trust in AM Radio and Cable News, respectively.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Neon Green on November 02, 2012, 06:22:34 pm
I've made a few attempts on the no seduction+no crime+no active recruits challenge, and I'm having dissapointing progress. I've had the founder write to newspapers with 15 skill and seven fireman sleeper agents promoting liberalism with effectiveness between 60% and 80% for about seven years, and public opinion on expanding free speech is sitting at 0%. I've had other laws (Gun control and Nuclear power) briefly go to C (and once M), but free speech is a difficult one. Is there a better sleeper for free speech than firemen, or a better activity than newspaper writing?
I'm actually not sure if Firemen affect issues at all as sleepers. I know firefighters do, from the code:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But I'm not sure if Firemen are included in that. If they're not included as Firefighters, then they each affect a random issue, and not Free Speech specifically. Seems like this code is for if you have firefighter sleepers, then the free speech issue drops to C+, then suddenly they start adding power, but they do nothing otherwise. Again, still not sure if Firemen are included in Firefighters (though I doubt it).

It seems like the best ones to have for free speech would be Agents, Conservative Judges, and Actors (they all affect Free Speech laws, in addition to others). Also it seems like Radio Personalities and New Anchors affect most, if not all, of the issues (if I'm reading this right). But they lose power as people lose trust in AM Radio and Cable News, respectively.

CREATURE_FIREFIGHTER is the same thing as firemen; the game changes the displayed title and skill/weapon loadout if free speech is archconservative when the creature is created, but they're otherwise identical.

This isn't the only situation where the displayed type is distinct from the actual underlying type, and in most (all?) cases the displayed type is not used internally.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: BoxOfAids on November 02, 2012, 07:24:31 pm
Ah, well that's good to know. So in any case, it seems like Firemen/fighters only affect free speech if the issue is at full C+. So that may make it easy to get it up to C, but from there it's more likely to drop back down to C+ than it is to go up to M if all you're doing for trying to get it up is use Firemen sleepers. As for why it would be at 0% with that many sleepers and strong writing skill, that is in fact a mystery to me.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 03, 2012, 01:33:29 am
I didn't implement the Firemen, but I believe that the Firemen are a subset of the CREATURE_FIREFIGHTER creature type, so would act the same as Firefighters when made into sleepers.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 03, 2012, 01:05:35 pm
Having researced the underlying mechanics of the game, it appears that actors are the best way to go. From what I can determine, the effect that a sleeper has on an issue is the sum of their charisma, heart, persuasion and intelligence, with some professions adding their relevant skill to the mix. However, some professions have multipliers - CEOs and eminent scientists have a 10x multiplier, Deathsqauds, Educators and Military officers have a 3x multiplier, and Actors, gang units, seals and military police have a 2x multiplier. However, actors are the only ones in that list that have an effect on free speech.

Given that, I'm going to try again, but this time recruiting actors. I'll probably only accept those that have a combined HRT, CHA, INT and PER of 20 or above, get seven of them, and see how things go.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: FritzPL on November 21, 2012, 11:46:17 am
I'm doing pretty well with a little modified strategy:

I keep the printing press, tailor squad, seduction.
I first recruit 2-3 Fashion Designers.
Then, I go for 1-2 Actors and 3 College Students/Authors.
I train them to get high disguise, security and optionally some dodge if I fuck up and alienate the masses or pick locks with conservatives looking.
I also get one Programmer to keep me updated on opinion polls.

I basically call this game style 'Become America's #1 Cheap Suit Producer Today!'
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Alpheus on November 21, 2012, 07:33:32 pm
Isn't plotting against the government illegal?

Or heck... Just being the LCS in Nightmare mode (where they likely repealed the "right of association") illegal in esssence?

Thoughtcrime & Thought Police would be a funny thing to add or make optional, like have a mind reading mode.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 22, 2012, 08:51:37 am
Having researced the underlying mechanics of the game, it appears that actors are the best way to go. From what I can determine, the effect that a sleeper has on an issue is the sum of their charisma, heart, persuasion and intelligence, with some professions adding their relevant skill to the mix. However, some professions have multipliers - CEOs and eminent scientists have a 10x multiplier, Deathsqauds, Educators and Military officers have a 3x multiplier, and Actors, gang units, seals and military police have a 2x multiplier. However, actors are the only ones in that list that have an effect on free speech.

Given that, I'm going to try again, but this time recruiting actors. I'll probably only accept those that have a combined HRT, CHA, INT and PER of 20 or above, get seven of them, and see how things go.
I'm not having much success with this strategy. I have seven actor sleepers, each with a combined HRT,CHA,INT and PER of over 25, but after several years of trying I can't get free speech support high enough. I'm going to have to either get more sleepers or get rid of the CCS, if I'm going to have any chance of success. Either way, I'm probably going to have to use the seduction skill.

Secuding/Recruiting the Hardened veteran is something I'll have to build the character around (after getting high INT).
Spoiler: seduction mechanics (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: recruiting mechanics (click to show/hide)
Both routes have their ups and downs. Going down the seduction route would mean that I can keep my seven actor sleepers, but it would mean breaking my code of conduct on no seduction. Going down the persuasion route would mean I can keep no seduction, but it would also mean I have to only have five actors (one sleeper to give the CCS safehouse location, one sleeper as the CCS boss). The only way to get around this would be to turn the sleeper into a full member, then immediately disband them.

Even if I get my hands on the CCS backer list, there is still the question of what to do with it. Publishing it would result in a free speech crime, though I might make an exception for this one case.

Even if I can get rid of the CCS, there's no guarantee that that will allow me to succeed. I might start a new game with the CCS disabled and see if I can make progress before trying one of the above.

Also, could someone point me to where exactly "skill_roll" and "attribute_roll" are defined in the code? Knowing where 'LCSrandom' is defined would also be very useful.

EDIT: Come to think of it, where are the effects from writing to newspapers detialed? I couldn't find anything in daily/daily.cpp, or daily/activities.cpp
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 24, 2012, 10:01:33 am
For those who are interested, I've hunted down the code that I wanted in the above post:
Spoiler: code (click to show/hide)
I'm therefore going to try again. I'm going to skill up my founder to max tailoring (for money),  decent business, religion, science and law, max persuasion (for recruiting), and good disguise (to get into the gentlemen's club.
I'm going to build up lots of money via tailoring. I'll then skill up (as detailed above), then go to the gentleman's club. Once at the gentleman's club, I'll hunt for news anchors and radio personalities. I'll try to get three anchors and two personalities. If one of them is also a member of the CCS and gives me their location, I'll recruit a third personality. If not, I'll recruit a hick to tell me the location. Once I have the location, my final recruit will be the CCS boss. At that point, I'll savescum, and try to finish the game in as pure a way as possible.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: BoxOfAids on November 25, 2012, 02:45:22 pm
Regarding the seduction mechanincs, does Psychology affect Seduction at all? How much Seduction/other stats should I have to get Radio Personalities and New Anchors? I have a founder with 14HRT, 22 CHA, 14 Seduction, 4 Business, 2 Science, 2 Psychology, and 1 Religion, and I can't even get either one to stay for a second date. Is it just too low Seduction, or what?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on November 25, 2012, 03:31:25 pm
Well apparently, having the same skills as your target increases the chance of them staying, even more so if your religion, business or science rolls beat the target's. Psychology doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 25, 2012, 04:57:31 pm
Regarding the seduction mechanincs, does Psychology affect Seduction at all? How much Seduction/other stats should I have to get Radio Personalities and New Anchors? I have a founder with 14HRT, 22 CHA, 14 Seduction, 4 Business, 2 Science, 2 Psychology, and 1 Religion, and I can't even get either one to stay for a second date. Is it just too low Seduction, or what?
Are you spending the money? You only get the bonus for similar levelled skills if you're spending the money. Your heart only comes into play when you've avoided the break up. If you're not getting to the second date, it means that your roll isn't beating the target's roll.

News anchors can easily have wisdoms well into the teens, and they will have their roll multiplied by 1.5

If you pay money, you add 3 to your roll for every non-zero skill of yours that is between half and double their level in the same skill.

If the target has a non-zero level in science, religion or business, then both character's rolls are increased by their respective levels in those skills.

Keep in mind that there are diminishing returns for having obscenely high charisma and seduction. Your roll on that cannot exceed eighteen, and increased skills and stats just bias the results more and more towards the higher scores. If you want to go for the premium targets, then you can't rely on a high skill for the base roll - the additional bonuses are a lot more important.

Unfortunatly, since the skills that anchors and personalities are a lot more variable than the CCS bosses, it's a lot harder to predict what they will have and therefore a lot harder to predict what skills to train to what levels. The best advice I can give is to train lots and lots of skills to a level of 2, and always spend the extra money.

In my experience, however, recruiting them via persuasion is a lot more reliable. persuasion is a lot higher to grind up, and you can train the relevant skills nice and high without worrying about them getting too high.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: BoxOfAids on November 25, 2012, 06:18:24 pm
Stuff

Good information, I hadn't been spending the money, I just gave up and recruited instead (much easier). Now my seduction is at 19, plenty of room for more love slaves!
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 28, 2012, 11:00:29 am
I've been doing some tests, and I think I've determined how to do the no crime/no seduction method. I'm pretty sure that this is the only possible method - I can't think of any others.
Spoiler: method (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on November 28, 2012, 11:31:49 am
Doesn't retrieving the backer's list already involve hacking the supercomputer?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 28, 2012, 01:53:04 pm
Doesn't retrieving the backer's list already involve hacking the supercomputer?
I believe it can also be done by getting the CCS boss as a sleeper, and looking for evidence. Given that that would result in a juice gain, he will be deactivated afterwards and never used again.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ArKFallen on November 28, 2012, 07:12:56 pm
I've been doing some tests, and I think I've determined how to do the no crime/no seduction method. I'm pretty sure that this is the only possible method - I can't think of any others.
Spoiler: method (click to show/hide)
Uh, aren't radio personalities always conservative (and don't liberal news anchors only appear in a liberal country)? If they are you'd need to kidnap and enlighten them, which is a crime.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 28, 2012, 07:40:15 pm
I've been doing some tests, and I think I've determined how to do the no crime/no seduction method. I'm pretty sure that this is the only possible method - I can't think of any others.
Spoiler: method (click to show/hide)
Uh, aren't radio personalities always conservative (and don't liberal news anchors only appear in a liberal country)? If they are you'd need to kidnap and enlighten them, which is a crime.
They are indeed always conservative, but that doesn't mean that I can't recruit them with persuasion. I detailed the mechanics in an earlier post. I've had quite some success at recruiting them in my previous attempts, but it requires creating the founder specifically for that purpose - I've been picking pretty much all CHA options, giving me a founder with 16 CHA (who can then easily grind to 16 persuasion). The means that I can get even the toughest target to come back for a talk later, and once they come back to a talk, as long as I have decent science, religion and law skills, I can then recruit them no problem (I've always been spending money, and once I get them back for a chat I always have success so far).
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on November 28, 2012, 08:01:48 pm
Important Conservatives, that requires a persuasion roll of 17 to even get them to visit you. Since the LCS will probably won't be well known by that point, that's -2 initial eagerness.

You won't have any points in religion, but perhaps some in business and science. Intelligence won't be extremely high either. That sets the base difficulty to keep them coming relatively high (even with the -5 for spending 50 bucks).

However at 16 persuasion and charisma that's 8d6 per persuasion roll, so... yeah, the chances of succeeding aren't that bad actually. You still need six consecutive successes, though.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 28, 2012, 08:24:11 pm
After doing some more research, I've decided to change my strategy yet again. I was previously planning to have writing to newspapers by the default founder activity while free speech is at C. However, having trawled through the code some more, it appears that that is not the best method - playing music seems to be better.
Spoiler: mechanics (click to show/hide)

You won't have any points in religion, but perhaps some in business and science. Intelligence won't be extremely high either. That sets the base difficulty to keep them coming relatively high (even with the -5 for spending 50 bucks).
Not quite. It is possible to get some religion by picking D for starting question 6, or for 7. However, I would really reccomend picking E for question 7, as that gives you an extra recruitment slot.

However at 16 persuasion and charisma that's 8d6 per persuasion roll, so... yeah, the chances of succeeding aren't that bad actually. You still need six consecutive successes, though.
Even better, it's 24d6. For most rolls you add the skill value and half the attribute value. And once you're chatting to them, you can pile on the skill bonuses so the roll is relatively unimportant. The only really tough roll is when you're trying to get them to come back, as that's the 17 difficulty one without any bonuses. The later rolls have a lower difficulties, with some penalties, but bonuses also come into play, which can a net bonus.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on November 29, 2012, 01:24:24 am
Even better, it's 24d6.
You only get 1d6 per 3 skill points (plus half your relevant stat).
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 29, 2012, 06:09:43 am
Even better, it's 24d6.
You only get 1d6 per 3 skill points (plus half your relevant stat).
Looking back at my old post, you're completely right. This means that I'm looking at 8d6 for the persuasion roll, and I might as well for for 10HRT instead of 11, as both would give me 5d6 on the music roll.

EDIT: yep, it looks like the music roll should work about 2/3 of the time with 10 HRT/music.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 29, 2012, 03:58:20 pm
Spoiler: Background (click to show/hide)

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Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on November 29, 2012, 04:11:52 pm
-E: nevermind.

Also laws already have an integer value associated with them depending on their alignment, from -2 for C+ to 2 for L+. So that'd be... -42 to 42

Also, you mentioned nowhere if you did eventually sell that backer list. Did you?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 29, 2012, 07:36:12 pm
-E: nevermind.

Also laws already have an integer value associated with them depending on their alignment, from -2 for C+ to 2 for L+. So that'd be... -42 to 42
I gave them an integer value on my own scale, so 0 represente elite liberal and 4 represents arch-conservative. I thought that 0 would be a better target law status than 42.

Also, you mentioned nowhere if you did eventually sell that backer list. Did you?
I never got the backer in the first place. I got one of the CCS members as my sixth sleeper but I never activated him. In order to get the CCS backer list, I would need the CCS boss as a sleeper. I never got him as a sleeper - I was in the middle of training up my founder to get the CCS boss as a sleeper when free speech went C quite unexpectedly, so I decided to roll with it and finish the game without taking out the CCS.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on November 29, 2012, 07:42:27 pm
Well kudos to you then.

It also makes sense that Free Speech is the first thing to go up, I mean, it's an issue that is affected by the TV and radio networks, right?
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: ed boy on November 29, 2012, 08:02:47 pm
Well kudos to you then.

It also makes sense that Free Speech is the first thing to go up, I mean, it's an issue that is affected by the TV and radio networks, right?
Not especially. Radio personalities and news anchors affect all issues equally, and the sum total influence of my sleepers would have been less than the default conservative influence. I just must have been extremely lucky with the random issues affected by the music rolls and the rolls for changing public opinion on free speech.
Title: Re: Taking the "Crime" out of "Liberal Crime Squad"...
Post by: Darvi on November 29, 2012, 08:07:20 pm
Ah.