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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Sowelu on February 22, 2012, 11:29:28 pm

Title: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Sowelu on February 22, 2012, 11:29:28 pm
Trying to find ways to make my embarks as easy as possible.

Obviously I want to bring along level-5 weaponsmiths and armorsmiths, so that I get a jump on early gear...but if I'm going to do that, it seems a little silly (not to mention expensive!) to bring any metal gear myself.

Trick #1: Forge-your-own bismuth bronze
- Don't bring ANY metal tools except an anvil.
- Bring N tin, N bismuth, and 2N copper bars.  You're going to be making a lot of bismuth bronze in a hurry.  Those all cost 10 each, while one bar of bronze costs 25.  Four assorted bars + 1 fuel = four bismuth bronze, what a steal!  When you factor in fuel, below, each bismuth bronze bar costs a little less than 11 embark points.
- Bring a ton of wood.  You'll use it as your sole fuel source early on and you want to start burning it ASAP.  A cost of 3 and a little time gives you charcoal, much cheaper than the 10 that fuel normally costs.
- Burn five logs, and you have 4 bismuth bronze and the fuel to make your initial 2 picks + 2 axes for the low low price of 55 dwarfbucks in total.  Pretty good considering that a single pick is normally, like...44 embark points.  If you brought a proficient weaponsmith, they are probably *tools*, which makes a massive difference if your workers get jumped by anything.
- I can usually spare enough points to make, oh, 28 bars.  Two picks for miners, two axes for woodcutters, and eight bars each for a squad of three military dwarves: That's a pretty damn good start!  Right from the very beginning, they each get a *quality* weapon, shield, breastplate, and greaves.  You can cover the rest with leather if you want.

Trick #2: Cheap booze
The only plants you can bring are plump helmets, at a cost of 4.  They're very versatile.  Now, of course you want to maximize your barrels by bringing a drink of each type, but it goes a lot farther.  At first glance you might say, "Plump helmets cost 4, booze costs 2, of course I want to bring the booze--it's cheaper!"  But no.  Remember, brewing turns a stack of 5 plants into a stack of 25 booze!  Twenty points of plump helmets (5x food) turns into fifty points of booze (25x wine).  I think I heard that dwarves prefer homemade booze, too.  So, it's simple:
- Bring extra plump helmets.  10 extra oughtta do it.
- Bring just a little bit of extra wood: 2 as above.  You need barrels after all, but you don't need many.  Plants in stacks of 5 are nice!
- About a day or two in the still, and suddenly you have more booze than you thought you could ever need.  40 points of plump helmets + 6 points of wood = 50 booze for 46 points.  If you bought it straight, you'd be paying 100 points.
- Want a slightly even bigger bonus?  I haven't tried this myself, but I think you can use pots for booze.  Now you don't even need to bring extra wood, just snag the stone!

Trick #3: Leather and wood goods
- Leather costs 5 embark points.  Rope and bags and quivers stuff can cost as much as 20.  Need I say more?
- Leather is also good for armor, so don't worry about bringing a whole ton of it.
- Similarly, crutches and splints are pretty expensive.  Logs are not.
- Seriously guys.  Bring that wood.  The less time you spend chopping it down, the more time you spend building your early fortress.  Also, you'll be wishing you brought more wood when your wilderness gets mostly depleted and you have to station your military outside to cover your woodcutters from goblin attacks.

Trick #4: Dog genders
Yeah, this is an old and obvious trick.  But if you bring four dogs, you really only need one of them to be male.  You don't need them to be war dogs, either, because a little spare time from a single dwarf will make them into that anyway.If you bring a lot of extras

Trick #5: A skill you don't need
If you played earlier versions, you knew that having at least novice appraisal was absolutely necessary to see the prices in a trade depot.  Not anymore.  Drop it like it's hot.

"But Commander Hurricane," you ask, "Won't it take a long time to get all of this stuff set up?  It'll take valuable months before I can even strike the earth!"  Nay, I say.  I got my miners equipped and some booze in the stockpile by day 7.  This stuff happens FAST.  The biggest problem I have is hauling all my wood into the fortress!


Any other sneaky tips and tricks to abuse your embark screen as much as possible?
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: SalmonGod on February 22, 2012, 11:39:30 pm
Interesting stuff.  Made me pause and think about how I'll do things in the future.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: agatharchides on February 22, 2012, 11:42:39 pm
A couple things I noticed.

Why bismuth bronze? AFAIK it isn't better than normal bronze and bismuth is more expensive than tin or copper. Just bring copper+cassiterite. Plus bismuth it is pretty rare, a lot of civs won't have it if you are playing anything post 31.19.

I rarely bring anything wooden. Usually there is plenty available on site and I usually have enough people for mining and woodcutting. You probably don't need to bring fuel. Obviously if you are embarking on a glacier that might change, thought you can breach a cavern even there. 
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: MarcAFK on February 22, 2012, 11:47:17 pm
Does it count as a stupid embark trick to raise embark points, start with 7 high skill masons and a fuckton of Marble Food and booze and spend the first year doing nothing but building? Also making the first migrant wave of a dozen or so masons as well?
Cause i've done that but then lost interest after completing a massive tower while everything else falls apart, starvation thirst and tantrum spirals from people falling off deconstructed scaffolding took it's toll on the project, i'm meaning to restart with the current version.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Clotifoth on February 22, 2012, 11:50:33 pm
Meat per animal comes on a "by animal" basis.  Therefore, instead of 15 prepared (animal) intestines, bring one each of 15 animal intestines for 15 barrels... that still works right? Either way I think it keeps dwarves happy with the variety.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on February 22, 2012, 11:57:23 pm
...
Trick #1: Forge-your-own bismuth bronze
...
Any other sneaky tips and tricks to abuse your embark screen as much as possible?

Better:
Bring copper ore, tin ore, and bituminous coal. Turn one wood into charcoal, use to smelt all of the coal. Each coal costs 1 fuel to smelt, but produces 3 fuel bars, for a net gain of 2. Use 1 bar of fuel to smelt 2 bronze bars directly from the ores.

Sandbagging is more of an exploit than efficiency.

Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Mitchewawa on February 22, 2012, 11:57:46 pm
3 miners, a mason, a cutter/mechanic, a rock crafter and an everything-noble. 3 picks, an axe, a bunch of plump helmet seeds, some food and tonnes of booze.

You can assign your noble to do all the stupid food related jobs, and your rock crafter can pick berries or fish while you dig out the base. Everything else can be made on site, or bought during the first few caravans. The seeds get your food industry working quickly, with the rock crafter creating rock pots to store booze and crafts to quickly buy out everything you need out of a caravan. The amount of booze should last you until you get rock pots running. If there's trouble, draft miners equipped with picks to sort it out.

The real beauty of this embark is this; it's a bare-bones tactic that allows room for maximum skill assignments. From the get-go you have skilled dwarfs, meaning you get what you actually need faster. All the misc. skills that aren't dreadfully important at the start, such as farmers, doctors and warriors, can be left for migrants.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Nil Eyeglazed on February 23, 2012, 12:03:46 am
Leather costs 5.  Meat costs 2.  Geese cost 10, and give both a hide and 16-17 food units.  (Careful in evil biomes!)

Milk is half the price of meat and comes with a free barrel, and you can rapidly turn it into high value cheese.  Combine with a proficient cook for >1000 value roasts you can trade to the first merchants.

Yes, you can use stone pots for booze.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Veylon on February 23, 2012, 12:04:01 am
Another thing to consider is bringing turkeys or other egg-layers along. They are fairly cheap at only 6 a piece, they'll lay eggs forever, and they can easily be bred up to vast numbers. I usually embark with a dozen or so.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 23, 2012, 12:04:56 am
Pre-Embark

Bring tons of crap

Don't unload anything

Abandon

Re-embark

You now have everything that was in your previous caravan(s).
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Girlinhat on February 23, 2012, 12:14:19 am
Bismuth bronze is the cheapest weapon-grade material by weight.  You're essentially watering down regular bronze with cheap bismuth, but it has the same properties so it's only making it cheaper.  If you embark with a woodcutter for fuel, then you can bring Bismunthinite, Copper Nuggets, and Cassiterite, which costs 1, 4 (two copper needed), and 2 respectively, for a total material value of 7.  Copper nuggets have a value of 2, so a copper breastplate, costing 9 bars, will have a default value of 18.  Magnetite has a value of 8, so a breastplate would be worth 72.  Bronze consumes tin and copper, giving you 2 bars for 2 ore, which means it averages to 2 material value and thus costs 18 - same as copper.  Steel would cost you 2x flux and 2x iron for 2x bars, or 1 flux and 1 iron per bar, so that would end up at material value of 2 for marble, and 8 for magnetite, so 10 value each.  A steel breastplate would have a raw material value of 90.

Bismuth Bronze, on the other hand, uses 1 bismuth, 2 copper, and 1 tin to produce 5 bars.  At costs, that's 1 for bismuth, 4 for copper, and 2 for tin.  Averaging that, (1+4+2)/4 = 1.75 material value per bar.  For a breastplate, that's about 15.75 material value.  So to recap, the cost of a breastplate in raw material value...

18 Copper
18 Bronze
72 Iron
15.75 Bismuth Bronze
90 Steel

It's a small increase, but if you're embarking somewhere heavily forested then it's worth it.  Clear cut the map and start smelting.  If you're embarking somewhere with sparse trees, or you intend to make walls with lumber or something, then regular bronze would be better as it requires less smelting.  After all, copper nuggets + cassiterite uses 1 fuel to make 2 bronze bars.  Bismunthinite, copper nuggets, and cassiterite could cost 4 to smelt into bars and 5th to make bismuth bronze, totaling 5 fuel to make 4 bars.

TL;DR - If you have a forest, it's cheaper to embark with the ore to produce bismuth bronze and do your own smelting.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 23, 2012, 02:30:53 am
Pre-Embark
Bring tons of crap
Don't unload anything
Abandon
Re-embark
You now have everything that was in your previous caravan(s).
I tried this myself once, and for some reason, my first wagon was totally indestructible. It simply would NOT be broken down into logs.
Also, I've heard that if you do the Double-Embark exploit, you can't bring any booze in your 1st-year load (it'll completely evaporate or something).
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: NinjaBoot on February 23, 2012, 02:41:05 am
Mod the world to give you 10,000 embark points.

*cough*
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Gukag on February 23, 2012, 02:49:03 am
I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Agent_86 on February 23, 2012, 02:51:35 am
I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Di on February 23, 2012, 03:15:01 am
Is this some dwarven variant of gentoo conference?
Most of these tricks were used by experienced players but I doubt they make embark easier.
And they definitely keep occupied a couple of dwarfs that could do more important things if you embark in hostile environment.
If you played earlier versions, you knew that having at least novice appraisal was absolutely necessary to see the prices in a trade depot.  Not anymore.  Drop it like it's hot.
I don't get it, you still can't see prices if broker is not appraiser, and while single bargain is enough to fix that, I haven't seen high level traders in a while. Grower, appraiser and some military skills are the only ones I always take at the embark.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Sowelu on February 23, 2012, 03:32:02 am
Most of these tricks were used by experienced players but I doubt they make embark easier.
And they definitely keep occupied a couple of dwarfs that could do more important things if you embark in hostile environment.
True...it'll take a little time.  But the advantages of decking out your military dwarves with a lot of bars' worth of *equipment* by halfway through the first month shouldn't be understated.  Unless you're overrun from the moment your wagon lands, you should have time to produce your stuff...and in a marginally-terrible case, you could bring one pick and dig a little hidey-hole to work in peace (haul bars and wood, build a hatch).

You can spend 84 embark points for one base-quality bronze short sword, or you can get two *quality* or ≡quality≡ [bismuth] bronze short swords for 86 embark points and two days' worth of three dwarves of labor.  Hey, up to you...

I don't get it, you still can't see prices if broker is not appraiser, and while single bargain is enough to fix that, I haven't seen high level traders in a while. Grower, appraiser and some military skills are the only ones I always take at the embark.
Huh, I can still see prices without any appraiser at all.  Weird.  I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that was the case...I'll double check tomorrow.

If you embark with a woodcutter for fuel, then you can bring Bismunthinite, Copper Nuggets, and Cassiterite, which costs 1, 4 (two copper needed), and 2 respectively, for a total material value of 7.
That sounded neat so I tested out those values.  And while they may have material values of x1, x2 and x2, stones themselves have a base value of 3 (compared to 5 for bars).  A bismuthinite stone costs 3, malachite costs 6 (I couldn't get native copper for some reason), and cassiterite costs 6.  That's 3+6+6+6 or 21 for the stone, and 3+3+3+3 (ore->bars) +3 (bars->bismuth bronze) or 15 for the fuel, for a total of 36 dwarfbucks.  Compared to 43 dwarfbucks for the bar form that IS a savings of seven dwarfbucks per four bars, but it'll take more fiddly micromanagement: You need to burn five fuel and smelt four bars pronto, so you can forge that axe and start getting more fuel.  It's going to eat up an awful lot of time too, since you will need to keep your wood burner and smelter on the job for 4x longer.  I could see it being worthwhile in some cases if you can spare four dwarves; burn, smelt, chop, and haul logs...  With the values so close, I'm not sure it's really worth it most of the time, especially if you need to start your woodcutter off with skill points you'd otherwise spend elsewhere.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: NinjaBoot on February 23, 2012, 03:37:40 am
I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.

Whats wrong with 15 packmules? 
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Ubiq on February 23, 2012, 04:38:34 am
When you factor in fuel, below, each bismuth bronze bar costs a little less than 11 embark points.

You can also forge that Bismuth Bronze into spiked balls or serrated discs to trade with the caravan; even at no quality, those sell for 756 dwarfbucks or 54 times what it cost to make.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: miauw62 on February 23, 2012, 04:58:32 am
I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.
the 45 children that are good for nothing.

Whats wrong with 15 packmules?
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Neyvn on February 23, 2012, 05:01:06 am
ptw
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Nan on February 23, 2012, 05:28:31 am
I generally bring a mix of steel making supplies and bronze making supplies. I think it's well worthwhile to give your soldiers steel weapons, steel helms are also a good investment IMHO, since helms are far more likely to absorb fatal hits than other armor pierces (mainly because a dwarf who passes out will be compulsively headshotted - a steel helm will make him safer passed out than he would be standing). Steel is expensive - about 3-4 times as costly as bronze, but embark points are cheap enough that it's still worthwhile for certain items.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: pushy on February 23, 2012, 07:23:51 am
Trick #1: Forge-your-own bismuth bronze
- Don't bring ANY metal tools except an anvil.
- Bring N tin, N bismuth, and 2N copper bars.  You're going to be making a lot of bismuth bronze in a hurry.  Those all cost 10 each, while one bar of bronze costs 25.  Four assorted bars + 1 fuel = four bismuth bronze, what a steal!  When you factor in fuel, below, each bismuth bronze bar costs a little less than 11 embark points.
- Bring a ton of wood.  You'll use it as your sole fuel source early on and you want to start burning it ASAP.  A cost of 3 and a little time gives you charcoal, much cheaper than the 10 that fuel normally costs.
- Burn five logs, and you have 4 bismuth bronze and the fuel to make your initial 2 picks + 2 axes for the low low price of 55 dwarfbucks in total.  Pretty good considering that a single pick is normally, like...44 embark points.  If you brought a proficient weaponsmith, they are probably *tools*, which makes a massive difference if your workers get jumped by anything.
- I can usually spare enough points to make, oh, 28 bars.  Two picks for miners, two axes for woodcutters, and eight bars each for a squad of three military dwarves: That's a pretty damn good start!  Right from the very beginning, they each get a *quality* weapon, shield, breastplate, and greaves.  You can cover the rest with leather if you want.
Personally, I prefer just making all my dwarves (except my miners) woodcutters and giving them wooden training axes (made from the wood of the dismantled caravan and from chopped-down trees, so completely free). Five starting dwarves plus any migrants in the first few waves will make VERY quick work of any tree-felling that needs doing, and (even if you bring wood along) at a MUCH cheaper cost than making metal axes, regardless of what metal that is. Later on those training axes can be replaced by metal axes so my dwarves have something semi-useful to protect themselves with if they get caught by a goblin ambush or something, but initially the wood axe will do so why waste the metal? Would be a different story if embarking in an evil biome where survival is an issue from the very start, but for areas that aren't immediately filled with things that want to kill you (where you'd have the time to forge weapons and armour), I don't see much point in wasting embark points on metal for woodcutters' axes.

Quote
Trick #3: Leather and wood goods
- Seriously guys.  Bring that wood.  The less time you spend chopping it down, the more time you spend building your early fortress.  Also, you'll be wishing you brought more wood when your wilderness gets mostly depleted and you have to station your military outside to cover your woodcutters from goblin attacks.
Which brings us onto this...by the time you've cleared the forest and goblins start coming, you should have had enough time to dig out a little underground forest which would be goblin-free, thus no need to station military outside to cover suicidal woodcutters because they can chop down trees from the safety of within the depths of their own fortress.

Quote
Trick #2: Cheap booze
I think I heard that dwarves prefer homemade booze, too.
Nope. Alcohol doesn't have quality modifiers (that's another common misconception because dwarves have a thought about how they 'had a fine drink lately' or whatever the wording is) and they don't care where it came from. Each dwarf has a preference for one type of booze, and drinking this will give the dwarf a happy thought. If a booze they don't have a preference for is the only thing they've got, they won't get a happy thought from drinking it (even if it's made by a legendary brewer) and then after having it a certain number of times in a row (I forget exactly, but it's around five times) they start getting an unhappy thought about having to drink the same old booze.
The plump helmet trick will inevitably result in you having dwarves who are a bit grumpy about drinking wine unless you bring along some barrels of ale/beer/rum or get a farm set up very quickly to churn out stuff for those different drinks, but since they'll also be getting minor negative thoughts from other things anyway, like a lack of tables/chairs and possibly having to sleep on the ground, this isn't a major concern.

I don't get it, you still can't see prices if broker is not appraiser, and while single bargain is enough to fix that, I haven't seen high level traders in a while. Grower, appraiser and some military skills are the only ones I always take at the embark.
Novice appraisal is all you need to see the prices and any dwarf will get that when they initiate trading at the depot once the first caravan comes along. You don't need a high appraisal level for any reason, and do you have much need to see item value before the first caravan arrives? It may be nice to have but it's not really essential.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: ThtblovesDF on February 23, 2012, 07:35:37 am
STUFF + LABOR = BETTER STUFF

Well blamy, these are new concepts for dwarf fortress and embarks, thanks for the update~
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Sowelu on February 24, 2012, 03:13:15 am
Oh here's a new one on me.

I started out with a dwarf with 5 ambush and no other skills (so his title was 'hunter').  He came equipped with a bronze crossbow, a pig tail fiber quiver, and 32 silver bolts...none of which I paid for in any way.

Could use some research into whether you need to be a "hunter" to get that stuff, or just have any points in ambush at all...but IF all it takes is a single point, I could see it being worthwhile to give it to all your dwarves for the quickest weapons ever.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: luppolo on February 24, 2012, 04:14:57 am
dwarves with ambusher as highest skill come full geared for hunting and early skirmish (they had a full leather set on df2010, never checked recently) this was known for a long time
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Wine Biscuits on February 24, 2012, 05:43:41 am
Yes, you can use stone pots for booze.

Going to make stone pot barrels from now on :]
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: NinjaBoot on February 24, 2012, 05:49:36 am
I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.
the 45 children that are good for nothing.

Whats wrong with 15 packmules?

45 live subjects to test !!DWARVEN SCIENCE!! on!
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Sowelu on February 24, 2012, 05:52:27 am
dwarves with ambusher as highest skill come full geared for hunting and early skirmish (they had a full leather set on df2010, never checked recently) this was known for a long time

Not known to me!  I suspect it's obscure enough to qualify as a Stupid Embark Trick, in any case.

I may consider making my doctor a 3-point ambusher from now on, just for the spare loot.  After all, I'm normally spreading out his skills between five categories anyway.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Psieye on February 24, 2012, 07:44:11 am
Stupid embark tricks really show what sort of playstyle is in mind. For me, I bring bags of sand so I can set up a magma industry within a month of embark with a green glass pump for anti-magma creature safety. Then any spare bags of sand can be turned into glass trade goods to get me a headstart on trade. Though lately I have been thinking that I should slow my progress down in the first year so I don't end up with a serious threat in year 2 before everything else is ready.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: lemmily on February 24, 2012, 08:35:12 am
I don't get it, you still can't see prices if broker is not appraiser, and while single bargain is enough to fix that, I haven't seen high level traders in a while. Grower, appraiser and some military skills are the only ones I always take at the embark.
Huh, I can still see prices without any appraiser at all.  Weird.  I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that was the case...I'll double check tomorrow.

I don't think you can see them without a broker with appraisal skill, but i've found after only one trade, your broker's skill goes to adequate, so just do an insignificant trade, like some rock for a log or something silly as your first trade, and then (in theory, this is how it worked for me anyway) after exiting the screen and getting the stuff you actually want to trade to the depot, when you trade again you should be able to see the values!
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Nan on February 24, 2012, 08:43:13 am
In my experience dwarves who initiate trade actually get the appraiser skill *before* the trade window even opens. In other words you'll always see prices, unless you initiate trade then change brokers to another dwarf who doesn't have any appraisal skill. Also it seems that the amount of appraisal experience granted by a caravan varies, elves seem to give particularly poor experience and I can recall a few times when trading with an elven caravan hasn't given enough appraisal experience to see prices. But since you always get a dwarvern caravan first this is no big deal.

Even in .31 it was a waste of points to embark with appraisal, because you get it for free just by trading. In .34 it's even more a waste of points to embark with any kind of broker skills - because immigrants quite commonly have high social skills and make FAR better brokers than the starting seven possibly could. Dwarfs with "Great" level social skills seem to be capable of getting traders to accept trades at no profit at all (except for the goods quality thing).
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: yggiz on February 24, 2012, 10:00:59 am
I always embark with an assortment of 2-point meats just for the barrels. Barrels/Pots are a lot faster to make now. I also bring tons of Kaolinite with any points leftover from essentials. This way I can get loads of porcelean without the slowdown of only 4 kaolinite imported per year from caravan.

Stating the obvious, the embark screen shows the availiable trade goods according to your chosen civ. I will abandon and re-embark with a different civ if I dont like the availiable trade goods. I dont need black diamonds, but I feel cheated if I wont be getting lignite or bituminous coal from my mother civilization.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Urist McGyver on February 24, 2012, 10:26:31 am
Mod the world to give you 10,000 embark points.

*cough*

While you're at it, mod dwarves to have inate 20 in all skills.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Lord Honk on February 24, 2012, 10:43:10 am
[...]
Stating the obvious, the embark screen shows the availiable trade goods according to your chosen civ. I will abandon and re-embark with a different civ if I dont like the availiable trade goods. I dont need black diamonds, but I feel cheated if I wont be getting lignite or bituminous coal from my mother civilization.
Similarly, it's pretty painful to see only steel anvils at embark. Why spend 300pts when you can get iron anvils for a third of that price?
Same goes for equipment. I usually start with little to no defensive capabilities when I know I can get metals quickly so a log and the first mined stone go into a carpenter's workshop and a training ax. Not much in saved points, but a point saved is a point earned as the saying goes.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Maldevious on February 28, 2012, 02:58:26 pm
Watching with interest.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Loud Whispers on February 28, 2012, 04:05:06 pm
Pre-Embark
Bring tons of crap
Don't unload anything
Abandon
Re-embark
You now have everything that was in your previous caravan(s).
I tried this myself once, and for some reason, my first wagon was totally indestructible. It simply would NOT be broken down into logs.
Also, I've heard that if you do the Double-Embark exploit, you can't bring any booze in your 1st-year load (it'll completely evaporate or something).

1. (d)(b)(c) :P
2. Depends on the biome. Generally depending on the temperature you can have booze survive decades.

50 year old Dwarf booze! Great way to speed legends mode along a bit too. Or maybe if you want to create a quick suit of adventurer steel.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Mushroo on February 28, 2012, 04:28:45 pm
I always embark with plenty of Potash. It basically doubles the output of my entire farming industry, with no extra material or labor cost (other than a small amount of labor to fertilize the field).

Sample embark:
(this is in addition to the usual stuff everyone brings)
30 rock nuts
8 potash
30 sand bags
Planter 5
Cook 5
Glassmaker 5

I immediately dig out an underground farm with two 3x5 plots, fertilize them, and plant the rock nuts.
Meanwhile I cut down some trees and build a wood furnace to make 30 charcoal and 24 ash, then an ashery to make 24 potash (8 potash each for summer, fall, winter).
When the charcoal is ready, my glassmaker makes 30 serrated green disks (or whatever glass goods/furniture are needed in the fortress) thereby creating 30 empty bags for process plants (bag).
At this point I usually switch one of the 3x5 plots to sweet pods, pig tails, etc.
Meanwhile my cook has been practicing on tallow, seeds, berries, etc. and is ready to start making lavish quarry bush leaf roasts.

By autumn, I will have 30 serrated glass disks and a whole bunch of prepared meals, to easily buy whatever I want from the caravan. Most times I don't even need to sell the disks and can use them for traps.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Garath on February 28, 2012, 04:40:29 pm
For those who didn't understand the reason for bismuth bronze, I don't either.
1 cassiterite and one native copper + 1 fuel = 2 bronze bars

1 cassiterite, 2 native copper ore, 1 bismithine ore +1 fuel = 2 bronze bars + native copper ore + bismuthine ore, if you're lucky

1 cassiterite + 1 fuels + 2 native copper ore + 2 fuel + 1 bismuthine ore + 1 fuel + 1 fuel = 4 bismuth bronze bars


However, the main point is that appearantly cassiterite is cheaper than bismuthine correction, bismuthine is cheaper. However, the need for so much extra fuel (5 instead of 2) will either mean more time spent woodcutting, or spending a lot more points on fuel, more than you saved. I consider it more point efficient to make bronze. The value of the item after it is crafted is only of importance if you want to trade it away or want to raise fortress value fast, which is, as far as I understood, not the main goal of the tricks.

I Usually get iron ores to make iron picks and iron axes. They'll be of some quality and miners level up fast, it makes for a good initial militia. After that I focus a woodcutter/carpenter to make beds so I can make a fast dormitory to decrease unhappiness in the beginning. The farmer goes to preparing the farm asap, but is otherwise part of the mining team that digs out the various storages. Small in size at first (10x10), the are expanded later. Then comes the carry rush to get things inside. Stone collecting and getting wood inside is the absolutely last thing that is done. After that, whatever I feel like. Currently I'm having a great idea on how to flood the entire courtyard mith magma. Or my whole courtyard and fort. We'll see
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Flying Dice on February 28, 2012, 04:49:24 pm
I'm a fan of the double or even triple or quadruple embark. 7 masons (or metalcrafters, or miners, or skill for whatever I want to build) a small ammount of food/drink then rest for raw meterials (blocks, etc). Make sure none of them die, or bury/memorialize them if they do...or it's ghosts for future embarks that you can't do anything about.
I was talking with someone today who mentioned he was going to try embarking, leaving all the materials he brings with him there, and now that historical figures come back to subsequent forts, embark with dwarves that have good/useful skills built up so that, on reclaim, they'll come back as migrants, instead of 15 animal caretakers and their 45 children.
the 45 children that are good for nothing.

Whats wrong with 15 packmules?

45 live subjects to test !!DWARVEN SCIENCE!! on!

Another thing to remember is that almost all those animal caretakers come with high skills in marksdwarf, archery, ambush, and dodge. In my current fortress I've gotten a full squad of 8 marksdwarves who immigrated as animal caretakers/trainers/dissectors/hunters. Five of them arrived with Legendary +3 skill in marksdwarf, and the other three arrived at Great or Professional. Getting a whole squad of high end markdwarves without any effort is rather nice.


This one is rather simple. If you don't want to do the minimalist approach and embark without an axe or picks, switch the metal axe for a training one (though a lot of people apparently consider that to be less 'efficiency' and more 'cheating').
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 29, 2012, 12:17:01 am
For those who didn't understand the reason for bismuth bronze, I don't either.
It's largely important only if you expect combat early on (which can be a very real possibility depending on your embark). The difference between copper and bronze is largely irrelevant for tools, as a (copper pick) is every bit as effective as a *steel pick*, but when it comes to weapons & armor, why settle for copper when all you need for bronze is to burn 1 extra unit of wood per 4 bars of metal? 
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: eternaleye on January 21, 2013, 01:59:06 am
My apologies for the necro, but since this thread helped me out a great deal I thought I'd contribute back.

Bringing wood along works, but isn't the most effective source of fuel. Always check if one of the available civilizations gives embark access to either lignite (decent) or bituminous coal (amazing). Either costs only 3 embark points, same as wood, but putting it through a smelter yields multiple blocks of fuel - a profit of 8 fuel per reaction, in the case of BC. Breaking down your wagon, putting one log through a wood furnace, and using the charcoal to jumpstart the smelter works absolute wonders - it gave me enough spare points to start with two bars of steel flat-out, which I then put through the giant-axe-blade cloner, while still having more than 100 units of fuel on embark. Before summer even started, I had a +serrated steel blade+ trap component worth (guessing-by-math here, since I took the OP's advice and didn't put points into appraiser - I'll know for sure after the first trade with the caravan) about 11,000 urists. That ought to be enough to buy a resupply of plump helmets and some variety alcohol easily, and I can trivially make more.

I also brought along turkeys, since they're non-grazer egglaying meat sources that only cost 6 embark points.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Mohreb el Yasim on January 21, 2013, 02:21:44 am
Trick #1: Forge-your-own bismuth bronze
- Bring a ton of wood.  You'll use it as your sole fuel source early on and you want to start burning it ASAP.  A cost of 3 and a little time gives you charcoal, much cheaper than the 10 that fuel normally costs.
I must disagree
you should take one wood and a lot of bitumius coal (yileds more coke / embark point)
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: TruePikachu on January 21, 2013, 03:14:23 am
You are aware that the thread had long since expired?
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Gentlefish on January 21, 2013, 03:23:31 am
Hey - if it's relevant, than it's okay.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Jimmy on January 21, 2013, 05:03:47 am
You are aware that the thread had long since expired?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A lot of what was written prior to the necro isn't relevant. For example, the return on the ore to bar ratios has drastically changed.

So yes, the new "ideal" embark profile would probably include:

1. Bituminous Coal. Each stone produces 9 coke bars. Repeat production consumes fuel, net gain = 8 fuel bars. To start production, a log from deconstructing your wagon can be burned to produce the first fuel bar.
2. 1:4 iron ore to flux stone ratio to maximize steel production.
3. 2 bars of steel can produce 2 giant axe blades, which when melted return 150% of their production materials due to a bug, meaning 2 bars are converted into 3 bars at a cost of 4 fuel.

Let's convert these costs into points value for comparison. Assume we want 100 steel bars as a goal.

Scenario 1: 2 bars of steel + bituminous coal
2 steel = 300 points
Fuel needed for axe blade cheat: 4 bars per 1 steel produced. 98 * 4 = 392 bars of fuel. 392 / 8 = 49
49 bituminous coal = 147 points
Total: 447 points

Scenario 2: 1 iron ore, 4 flux + bituminous coal
1 iron ore = 24 points
4 flux = 24 points
Fuel needed for ore smelting: 1 to smelt iron ore into 4 iron bars, 2 per pig iron, 2 per steel = 9 fuel for 4 bars of steel, or one full bituminous coal, plus a second log from your wagon turned to charcoal
Fuel needed for axe blade cheat: 4 bars per 1 steel produced = 96 *4 = 384 bars of fuel. 384 / 8 = 48
49 bituminous coal = 147 points
Total: 195 points

Ultimately, this means you have a choice. You can spend 44 points on a copper pick to start digging right away, or spend 100 points on an anvil plus additional spend on ore to delay your digging and await steel production. Assuming you're willing to sacrifice the first month of spring without significant digging, you can probably embark with the following:

1 iron anvil
50 bituminous coal
1 iron ore
4 flux stone
Total: 298 points

This has everything you need for 100 steel bars, minus the time required to create them. This assumes you're happy to exploit the game producing and melting axe blade trap components for extra steel. To purchase the iron ore and flux stone to produce the 100 bars without this exploit would cost 1200 points without any anvil or fuel.

Alternatively if you don't want steel, bismuth bronze costs 6 points per copper ore, 6 points for cassiterite and 3 points for bismuthinite, meaning a total of 16 bars of bismuth bronze for 21 points in ore cost, minus fuel of 1 bituminous coal, bringing the total to 24 points. This is 1.5 points per bar of bismuth bronze. 16 bars is a good start on your needs. 3 more points for another piece of bituminous coal and you have enough fuel to make 8 metal items, including picks. This, however, requires the 100 point anvil investment again.

Minimalist embarks are fun but a bit boring if you're going for a zero point challenge. I've done it before you could turn a log from your wagon into a training axe to chop more trees. I'd imagine a zero point embark would be impossible without a water source however. To guarantee survival, the bare minimum you'd need is a single 44 point copper pick. This is cheaper than bringing your own anvil, which you can get with the first caravan. On a map with wood and plants to harvest, embarking with seven peasants and no supplies is quite reasonable. Wagon gets deconstructed, one log to make carpenter's workshop, another log is turned into a training axe, this axe is used to cut more trees for building materials and you gather plants to farm above ground crops. Unfortunately you have no means of digging until the caravan arrives with your first pick.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Mohreb el Yasim on January 21, 2013, 01:25:23 pm
You are aware that the thread had long since expired?
it is always better to revive threads corresponding to a question then having 100 thread all speaking of the same thing, and then when someone will search the forums (there are few i know but should be encouraged) people can find more information and less clutter.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Koremu on January 21, 2013, 02:59:12 pm
You are aware that the thread had long since expired?
it is always better to revive threads corresponding to a question then having 100 thread all speaking of the same thing, and then when someone will search the forums (there are few i know but should be encouraged) people can find more information and less clutter.
Except for the fact that the first 3 pages of the thread are outdated.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Rutilant on January 21, 2013, 03:03:25 pm
This is a forum, not a wiki - it's meant to be a little, you know, conversational.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Necrisha on January 21, 2013, 03:13:31 pm
yeah, like I personally figured out the ambusher one first while I was in college and until I decided I liked the cage trap and tame to butcher method better I used the trick exclusively.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Aerie on January 22, 2013, 01:43:57 am
Embark with the following:

1 copper ore
1 boulder
1 anvil
As many cats as possible.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: Larix on January 22, 2013, 06:24:20 am
Alternatively, the minimum no-trade embark is
1 lump of native copper
1 iron anvil
106 embark points are enough! (if your civ has no access to native copper and/or iron ores, it'll become more expensive - malachite is not fire-safe, so you'll need to take a random fire-safe stone along, which raises the cost to 9 points, in which case you can also take tetrahedrite and hope for a silver bar on smelting.)
You can build a functioning fort on that basis, the only nuisance is that anyone who wants yarn cloth for a mood will die horribly; and you'll have to build a trade depot to avoid unwanted gifts from caravans gone mad.

To ease the early life of a fortress, i like to take some raw materials along - bituminous coal for plentiful fuel without the need to manage logging operations, copper ore and cassiterite for cheap bronze. Throw out the splints, crutches and the wheelbarrow from the starting setup, as well as most cloth - yarn and silk fulfil the same basic functions as plant cloth, and are cheaper; thread is another point cheaper than the finished cloth and provides starter training to your weavers. And even if you embark in a desert, a wheelbarrow won't cost you more than the three embark points for a log and a bit of work at the carpenter's shop.
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: MarcAFK on January 22, 2013, 07:02:06 am
Oh sweet irony, just today i finally got around to reading this thread which was sitting around the bottom of my notify list, and now here it is, alive once more!
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: edgefigaro on January 22, 2013, 04:40:33 pm
Embark with a male and female cave croc. Build a nest box in a room and hole up. Pen all of the crocsplosion in the entry hall when you are ready to rejoin the world.

Who needs a military when you have 40 cave croc hatchlings as guards?
Title: Re: Stupid embark tricks
Post by: ChuckWeiss on January 23, 2013, 11:41:57 pm
PTW