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Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nikov on August 28, 2010, 11:55:09 am

Title: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on August 28, 2010, 11:55:09 am
MSN has an article about how Americans believe in silly things, and lists 'witches' as a silly thing to believe in. I'm sure my Wiccan neighbors appreciate being considered fictional constructs of superstition. I wonder if druids are also fictional constructs, because I'm sure my college roommate would love to hear that.

Also hard science degrees and nature worship seem like an odd combination. I should have asked him about that.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Realmfighter on August 28, 2010, 11:57:15 am
Links
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Enzo on August 28, 2010, 11:57:20 am
Your roommate's a druid? What's his Animal Companion?

Also, don't Wiccans prefer to be called...Wiccans? I've known Wiccans, never heard one identify as a "witch".
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smjjames on August 28, 2010, 12:06:25 pm
MSN has an article about how Americans believe in silly things, and lists 'witches' as a silly thing to believe in. I'm sure my Wiccan neighbors appreciate being considered fictional constructs of superstition. I wonder if druids are also fictional constructs, because I'm sure my college roommate would love to hear that.

Also hard science degrees and nature worship seem like an odd combination. I should have asked him about that.

There are plenty of scientists who love nature, so its not too odd.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Christes on August 28, 2010, 12:10:31 pm
Heh, I read (what I think is) the same article, but don't remember witches specifically.

Here's the one I saw:

http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/08/24/dumb-things-americans-believe.html
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Maggarg - Eater of chicke on August 28, 2010, 12:29:32 pm
A lot of these religions are mostly fictional constructs, to be fair. Actual druids weren't over-inclined to write anything. At all.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: RedKing on August 28, 2010, 12:32:36 pm
Meh. Most of those thigns aren't about "belief in silly things" as much as mindboggling ignorance. (I mean, 20% think the sun revolves around the Earth?? Seriously? Elementary school science FAIL.)

As to the way it characterized "witches", I suppose you could ask, do people believe in:

A. People who practice a New Age religion which identifies itself with 'witchcraft'

vs.

B. People who can turn you into a newt. (You'll get better.)

I firmly believe in A (have my share of Wiccan friends), firmly disbelieve in B.


Also, despite the fact that most of said "silly things" make me facepalm, the author's editorial tone is that of a major douchebag.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Enzo on August 28, 2010, 12:42:42 pm
Spoiler: In Summary (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grimlocke on August 28, 2010, 03:21:14 pm
Wiccans, Druids and other newage religeons do seem quite silly to me actualy. All the more if they have a degree in science, as that would mean they have a lot of contradictionary convictions.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: atomicwinter on August 28, 2010, 03:27:22 pm
Yea it frustrated me when I saw this. Isn't Christianity silly? Zombie jews are more ridiculous than some of the Wiccan beliefs. 
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Muz on August 28, 2010, 04:00:52 pm
Heh, I read (what I think is) the same article, but don't remember witches specifically.

Here's the one I saw:

http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/08/24/dumb-things-americans-believe.html

OK, why the hell are so many people in a first world country that stupid? 20% believing that the Sun revolves around the Earth? 41% not knowing that Judaism is the oldest Abrahamic faith? Over half can't identify the countries they're at ware with? Seriously? Even a third world country like Brunei would do better. I heard of it, and thought it was some anti-American joke, but it's absurd for it to be that bad.

I can't call non-solid facts wrong, though. Obama is the only one who knows his own true religion (not that it should matter anyway). We don't know if there's WMDs in Iraq, whether or not we find them. Evolutionary theory, witchcraft, magic, ESP, ghosts, etc can't really be confirmed wrong, so they're not blatantly false.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Cthulhu on August 28, 2010, 04:13:06 pm
Yea it frustrated me when I saw this. Isn't Christianity silly? Zombie jews are more ridiculous than some of the Wiccan beliefs.

Well obviously when you deliberately cast it in a ridiculous light like "zombie jews" it does.

Anyway, yeah, America has dumb people, I wasn't aware we had a monopoly on them though.  Have any of these studies been replicated in other first world countries?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Huesoo on August 28, 2010, 04:19:47 pm
Probably polled 100 people in the backwater south. Can anybody give me the source on how many people where polled?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Africa on August 28, 2010, 04:25:17 pm
Evolutionary theory, witchcraft, magic, ESP, ghosts, etc can't really be confirmed wrong, so they're not blatantly false.
Uhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm

Please redact

If it couldn't be proven false it would not be a viable scientific theory
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 04:46:30 pm
Yea it frustrated me when I saw this. Isn't Christianity silly? Zombie jews are more ridiculous than some of the Wiccan beliefs.

Well obviously when you deliberately cast it in a ridiculous light like "zombie jews" it does.

Anyway, yeah, America has dumb people, I wasn't aware we had a monopoly on them though.  Have any of these studies been replicated in other first world countries?

But that's less funny, and the insulting America is like a security blanket for news sites.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Duke 2.0 on August 28, 2010, 04:50:09 pm
Yea it frustrated me when I saw this. Isn't Christianity silly? Zombie jews are more ridiculous than some of the Wiccan beliefs.

Well obviously when you deliberately cast it in a ridiculous light like "zombie jews" it does.

Anyway, yeah, America has dumb people, I wasn't aware we had a monopoly on them though.  Have any of these studies been replicated in other first world countries?

But that's less funny, and the insulting America is like a security blanket for news sites.
It's a heavy burden, but the American people wish for our news sites to remain functioning. So we unintentionally do this crap to make sure the industry survives. Somebody needs to do it.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: ILikePie on August 28, 2010, 04:51:00 pm
Obama? Why do people try to make every single president look like an idiot? Also Judaism and Buddhism should be up on that list too.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 04:56:22 pm
Does it even matter if Obama is a Muslim or not? If he was, I'm not going to freak out. I'd be more concerned if he was a Fundamentalist than a Muslim.

My ever-growing curiosity now wonders if there's a non-magical religion. Something plausible and re-creatable.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on August 28, 2010, 04:59:33 pm
Does it even matter if Obama is a Muslim or not?

To a not insignificant chunk of the country, yes it does matter.  Namely, the same remarkably large chunk of the country that thinks beard bomb-throwing loonies are hiding down every dark alley waiting to brainwash federal judges and ban football.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 05:01:24 pm
Perhaps history should have more emphasis on the world in general, instead of every little detail about America.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on August 28, 2010, 05:02:44 pm
Perhaps history should have more emphasis on the world in general, instead of every little detail about America.

Have you ever been to America?  These are the same people whose version of History includes Thomas Jefferson as a revival evangelist and the Ten Commandments in the Preamble.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Phmcw on August 28, 2010, 05:11:52 pm
Witch... well it's a silly thing to believe into all right. Astrology too.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: ILikePie on August 28, 2010, 05:16:02 pm
So is free beer and free speech. *ahem* Einie's theory of relativity is hardly believable as well.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Phmcw on August 28, 2010, 05:16:45 pm
Well those too. No Einstein's theory is easily provable.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Enzo on August 28, 2010, 05:23:19 pm
Perhaps history should have more emphasis on the world in general, instead of every little detail about America.

That's sort of a funny statement. I assume you mean History as taught in America, because as a Canadian I can tell you they didn't teach us shit about the US in school, and I certainly don't associate "history" with "every little detail about America". At all.

My ever-growing curiosity now wonders if there's a non-magical religion. Something plausible and re-creatable.

You are thinking of science.

(Not to pick on you or anything smigenboger, I mean it in the most non-antagonistic way.)
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: ILikePie on August 28, 2010, 05:28:20 pm
That's sort of a funny statement. I assume you mean History as taught in America, because as a Canadian I can tell you they didn't teach us shit about the US in school, and I certainly don't associate "history" with "every little detail about America". At all.
Nothing about British colonies? They teach that in Israel.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Enzo on August 28, 2010, 05:31:40 pm
That's sort of a funny statement. I assume you mean History as taught in America, because as a Canadian I can tell you they didn't teach us shit about the US in school, and I certainly don't associate "history" with "every little detail about America". At all.
Nothing about British colonies? They teach that in Israel.

Well yeah, a little about Imperialism in general, and the British colonization of North America was big on the curriculum. What I mean to say, I guess, is that we didn't learn much about America after 1812.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Cthulhu on August 28, 2010, 05:36:39 pm
I learned a little about Canada in Geography class.

I would love to be part of a coalition that takes over Canada, and when they're dividing up Canada and ask what I want, I say "Nunavut" and give the most dumbass grin imaginable.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Realmfighter on August 28, 2010, 06:01:27 pm
You are my sexy american hero.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 06:14:51 pm
My ever-growing curiosity now wonders if there's a non-magical religion. Something plausible and re-creatable.

You are thinking of science.

(Not to pick on you or anything smigenboger, I mean it in the most non-antagonistic way.)

That debate is like the King of shitstorms.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 06:54:27 pm
Ah, yes I meant history as taught in American Middle/Highschools. There was a little bit about North America in the 1600s, and then our glorious schism with the evil empire, how we borrowed some resources from our fellow man, and with a little intuition, we singlehandedly created every invention from 1800-1920 all by ourselves, and then we got involved in some petty war over in Europe, and then did so once again in a glorious saved-everyone-just-in-the-nick-of-time fashion, then Vietnam happened, and history was over. Some time between 1776 and 2000 we freed the black from...ourselves...and women started becoming important.

They didn't give much credit to anything happening outside the interest of the US, or really explain why our opposition had any reason to face us, aside from the Russians, who were of the Communist influence, and we laugh off how silly it was how we rivalled so much at the time.

You had to do some serious independent reading if you wanted to know what was going on in France, Australia, Germany, Spain, Italy, or Greece at the time. The only real mention of the Middle East was their shenanigans during 300BC.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Sensei on August 28, 2010, 07:02:59 pm
Bah, you're all in Texas.

Anyway, what percentage of Bay12'ers think Newsweek is a reliable source for percentages about controversial things?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Enzo on August 28, 2010, 07:08:12 pm
My ever-growing curiosity now wonders if there's a non-magical religion. Something plausible and re-creatable.

You are thinking of science.

(Not to pick on you or anything smigenboger, I mean it in the most non-antagonistic way.)

That debate is like the King of shitstorms.

Oh right, for a minute there I forgot that an offhand comment can start a heated argument on the interwebs. Forget I said that. There have been like fifty locked topics on that already.

Smigenboger : For some reason, American History sounds like a really entertaining course whenever someone describes it to me. In a smug, almost ironic sort of way.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 07:18:57 pm
Don't worry, I'm not that flammable over the interwebs.

Yeah, the 'general public' will be working minimum wage jobs and trade school jobs, where high math and social studies won't really matter, so the school system focuses on being to write and speak, with a little bit of integrated science and government thrown into it. The first two years of college seem similar, but with more difficulty and responsibility added in. The people who need or want a higher education either go to specialized schools, or seek it out themselves.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Cthulhu on August 28, 2010, 07:21:05 pm
Everyone who complains about history courses and hasn't taken A Beka curriculum is both a whiner and has no idea how bad a book can get.

Seriously.  Any historical figure who didn't fit the Fundamentalist Christian/Straight Republican mold was either glossed over or demonized, they even went as far as to present that "Voltaire's house was used to print Bibles after he died" thing as objective fact and acts like he was a committed atheist.  Both of those things are wrong.

And yeah, super americocentric, the whole thing, Biology was even worse because we had to deal with evolution.

Yeah, every book had a section on Evolution, probably even the math book.

Thankfully my school got their act together and started phasing out A Beka for another curriculum which was still evangelist Christian but much more chill about it.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 07:25:12 pm
I like our school. Our school is mega chill. My P.E. teacher told us to use safe-sex measures like condoms because to not do so would be "being a bloody idiot".

Also, so you know why that's such a big deal, our school is mega-Catholic as well.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Josephus on August 28, 2010, 07:27:20 pm
Now, now, the Catholics allow using condoms nowadays. As long as you poke a hole in them to, and I quote, "Give God a chance."

Okay, so that joke was told me by one of my friends, a Jesuit. Jesuits are weird.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Cthulhu on August 28, 2010, 07:28:46 pm
That was the other thing, big on abstinence only education.

Interestingly we seemed to be one of the only Christian schools that wasn't a hotbed of illicit doin'it just under the surface.  I dunno.

Anyway, yeah, kids are going to do it.  You can't prevent them, so you might as well teach them to do it safely.  Blithely ignoring this fact and insisting on abstinence only education is unbelievably retarded
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 07:29:36 pm
That is why this school is actually a great school. Go this school.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Realmfighter on August 28, 2010, 07:30:46 pm
Last year our health teacher showed us how to put on a condom, among other things.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 07:31:17 pm
My school wasn't hyper-Christian, and the whole evolution lesson in Bio wasn't really that big of a deal. The teacher didn't do anything to make it less boring though...

Do non-Christian sects have huge issues with evolution? Do Hindi and Muslims have such an inflamed reaction to it?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: nenjin on August 28, 2010, 07:31:27 pm
Quote
Anyway, what percentage of Bay12'ers think Newsweek is a reliable source for percentages about controversial things?

Percentages, mmmmaaayyyybeee, because there's math behind that. Their track record for photo illustrations though means I take everything they say or print with a grain of salt. They have absolutely no problem "sexing up" visuals, there's no reason they wouldn't apply it to the written content just as aggressively.

Quote
and I quote, "Give God a chance."

Please tell me you engaged in an immediate theological debate about the power of God vs. 1/8" of rubber.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 28, 2010, 07:31:50 pm
I was raised Wiccan, so I can attest that they're real.

But I guess it's technically less likely to believe in a Wiccan than a Christian considering it's only about 70 years old.

By the way, what are you people talking about, this thread is about Wicca not Catholics or evolution or not having sex.

In fact, abstinence and Wicca have nothing to do with each other, so gtfo.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Josephus on August 28, 2010, 07:33:30 pm
Last year our health teacher showed us how to put on a condom, among other things.

Fuck yeah! He gave you a demonstration? Woooo!

Do non-Christian sects have huge issues with evolution? Do Hindi and Muslims have such an inflamed reaction to it?

I'm a born-again Christian, and my community at least doesn't have a big problem with evolution. Many of my baptist friends don't really care either way. Catholicism calls the theory of evolution easily reconcilable with the notion of creation.

It's only idiotic fundies who point out that "It's a theory, that means they haven't proven it yet." They. Fail. Logic. Forever.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: nenjin on August 28, 2010, 07:33:38 pm
Quote
I was raised Wiccan, so I can attest that they're real.

I'm totally serious when I ask: what's it like being raised Wiccan?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 07:34:02 pm
Last year our health teacher showed us how to put on a condom, among other things.
Rofl, I'm sure if a girl said someone had to use a condom, it'd take even the most dim person less than 10 seconds to find out how to put it on.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 07:34:21 pm
I was raised Wiccan, so I can attest that they're real.

But I guess it's technically less likely to believe in a Wiccan than a Christian considering it's only about 70 years old.

By the way, what are you people talking about, this thread is about Wicca not Catholics or evolution or not having sex.

In fact, abstinence and Wicca have nothing to do with each other, so gtfo.
Really? I thought Wiccans were against condoms.

Dunno where I heard it though. Can you confirm it?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: nenjin on August 28, 2010, 07:35:10 pm
I wouldn't trust anything you've heard about Wicca as it relates to sex. It's most often wrong, intentionally or otherwise.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 07:36:40 pm
That's what I would assume, just interested in confirming it.

I will also do some light Googling.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 07:39:31 pm
I know a decent amount of Wiccans, ranging from the 'don't ever have sex or do drugs' to 'don't ever stop having sex or doing drugs', their views on sex are about the same as the average non-stupid
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Enzo on August 28, 2010, 07:50:42 pm
Do non-Christian sects have huge issues with evolution? Do Hindi and Muslims have such an inflamed reaction to it?

Actually, having been brought up, this question interests me too.

By the way, what are you people talking about, this thread is about Wicca not Catholics or evolution or not having sex.

I thought this thread was about Americans not believing in witches.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 28, 2010, 07:53:29 pm
I guess there might be a misconception there, since Wiccans spend a lot of time celebrating fertility and the like, but no, Wicca is not anti-condom. As a religion, it's actually very much geared to the left. It's not often you'll find Wiccans who are pro-lifers or who enjoy voting for the Conservative party. It draws heavily on older Celtic religions. The whole thing was thought up by a hippy and author from the early part of the 20th century (Gerald Gardner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner)), but as a means of expressing spirituality, I think it does its job well.

My mother is doing a Ph. D in Sociology of Religion (she's focusing on Catholicism), and has read about Wicca in some of her academic jounrnals. It's actually true that the number of people who identify themself as Wiccan spikes every time some form of popular culture involving the occult comes out (including Harry Potter or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, of all things). It's also true that lots of people go into it for the sexuality aspect. But it's fun all around, and there are varying levels of belief and followings in the religion.

One of the people I remember from my youth-times is Sam Wagar (http://www.thewicca.ca/people/bc/sam-wagar.php), who was pulled out of an NDP riding in British Columbia after it was discovered he was a practicing witch. His kids got me into roleplaying games and forum roleplaying.

I haven't gone to any of the Gatherings (large events where all the pagans - including Wiccans, Norse Pagans, and other Celtic Pagan types - go to meet for a weekend every summer) in a few years now, but they were always great fun, and there were lots of nice people. I've picked up some talents like reading Tarot Cards, as well, which is always great at parties.


My father is a non-practicing Catholic, and my mother's parents and grandparents are all fairly devout Christians. She was raised Pentacostal.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on August 28, 2010, 07:55:24 pm
My dad doesn't believe Wiccans actually exist, and my mom had never even heard of it before.

I personally have never met any Wiccans that I'm aware of.  I know tons of Protestants.  A few Catholics, Jews (Or is it Jewish People?), Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, and Buddhists.  I've probably met some Bahai Faith...ers too.

I don't have any problem believing it exists.  People will believe anything.  Given enough time some one will probably start believing in the flying spaghetti monster as well.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 28, 2010, 07:57:07 pm
It might be a regional things. There are far less Wiccans in Eastern Canada than in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, for instance.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 07:59:27 pm
Wiccans sound like a great community to be part of. I mean, I know many, many good Catholics. But the preaching thing is always going to be part of that and I like to practice my faith on my own.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 08:06:10 pm
A lot of my 'Goth' friends claimed to be Wiccan. They were very fun-loving people, though, like everyone in the group at the time, they had a touch of the nerdy 'I know everything about everything'. It's more funny when the Christians have it.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Servant Corps on August 28, 2010, 08:07:11 pm
Look, I didn't read this thread, but there is a poll that shows Chrisitans mixing New Age religious practices (http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/Many-Americans-Mix-Multiple-Faiths.aspx).
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Realmfighter on August 28, 2010, 08:16:45 pm
Last year our health teacher showed us how to put on a condom, among other things.

Fuck yeah! He gave you a demonstration? Woooo!

The funny thing was, the thing he was putting the condom he just pulled out of his ass, and the condom only fit on it after some effort.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 08:18:22 pm
I refuse to believe you're telling the truth, mostly because I'm eating.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Realmfighter on August 28, 2010, 08:21:33 pm
I refuse to believe you're telling the truth, mostly because I'm eating.

Would i lie to you?

He grabbed his phallus literally right when we came in.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 28, 2010, 08:24:21 pm
I think the professional thing to do is use a model or something, not expose yourself in front of minors. In fact, I don't know if flashing a kid is ever the right thing to do. I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Realmfighter on August 28, 2010, 08:26:13 pm
The only thing that fabulous man exposed to us was enlightenment.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on August 28, 2010, 08:51:22 pm
I think the professional thing to do is use a model or something, not expose yourself in front of minors. In fact, I don't know if flashing a kid is ever the right thing to do. I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss.
Damn it, now I'm trying to come up with a non-extortion example for that.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Willfor on August 28, 2010, 08:55:28 pm
It might be a regional things. There are far less Wiccans in Eastern Canada than in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, for instance.
It's probably because I live in the general vicinity of Fredericton, a fairly pretentious city by all accounts, but I can tell you we have our fair share of Wiccans. I think.

I, myself, was raised Pentecostal, and I can see how it would lead into it.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Sensei on August 29, 2010, 12:04:46 am
I think the professional thing to do is use a model or something, not expose yourself in front of minors. In fact, I don't know if flashing a kid is ever the right thing to do. I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss.

For the record, they put it on a partner/volunteer's fingers. Anyone telling you otherwise is bullshitting you.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 29, 2010, 01:23:06 am
It might be a regional things. There are far less Wiccans in Eastern Canada than in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, for instance.
It's probably because I live in the general vicinity of Fredericton, a fairly pretentious city by all accounts, but I can tell you we have our fair share of Wiccans. I think.

I, myself, was raised Pentecostal, and I can see how it would lead into it.

Really? Where at? I spent the last two years of High School in Oromocto. My ex-girlfriend was a pseudo-Wiccan at one point before I met her.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on August 29, 2010, 01:37:21 am
I think the professional thing to do is use a model or something, not expose yourself in front of minors. In fact, I don't know if flashing a kid is ever the right thing to do. I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss.

For the record, they put it on a partner/volunteer's fingers. Anyone telling you otherwise is bullshitting you.

When my college biology class was supposed to practice with condoms, we used zucchinis.  No one actually had to stay, because they got too many angry letters, but I thought it was entertaining.  They were unlubricated, so I tried to make balloon animals.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Josephus on August 29, 2010, 01:38:41 am
I think the professional thing to do is use a model or something, not expose yourself in front of minors. In fact, I don't know if flashing a kid is ever the right thing to do. I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss.

For the record, they put it on a partner/volunteer's fingers. Anyone telling you otherwise is bullshitting you.

When my college biology class was supposed to practice with condoms, we used zucchinis.  No one actually had to stay, because they got too many angry letters, but I thought it was entertaining.  They were unlubricated, so I tried to make balloon animals.

Aren't Zucchinis a little big for that?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on August 29, 2010, 01:40:41 am
Maybe they weren't zucchinis.  Some kind of tough phallic green vegetable, maybe unripe zucchinis.

Condoms are not flexible by the way.  Can tie a knot worth a damn.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: devek on August 29, 2010, 02:12:43 am
Well, all religions are false, so what difference does it make? :D

Might as well pray to my penis.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Josephus on August 29, 2010, 02:14:51 am
Maybe they weren't zucchinis.  Some kind of tough phallic green vegetable, maybe unripe zucchinis.

Condoms are not flexible by the way.  Can tie a knot worth a damn.

This is a good thing. They are not supposed to be flexible, just elastic enough to not cut off your dick when you put them on.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 29, 2010, 02:16:13 am
I tied knots in my condoms all the time. If you don't, then it leaks and that's gross.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Willfor on August 29, 2010, 02:34:25 am
Really? Where at? I spent the last two years of High School in Oromocto. My ex-girlfriend was a pseudo-Wiccan at one point before I met her.
@_@

I'm about five minutes outside of Oromocto, pretty close to Geary. It's a seriously damn small world. Very likely we actually never met even though I've been here for about thirteen years because I was homeschooled, but yeah.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Huesoo on August 29, 2010, 09:01:56 am
Wicca is bogus. just as ridiculous as Scientology:

http://www.cracked.com/funny-2386-wicca/
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: atomicwinter on August 29, 2010, 09:21:40 am
Wicca is bogus. just as ridiculous as Scientology:

http://www.cracked.com/funny-2386-wicca/
That isn't even what Wicca is. I thought it was just Pagans who practiced "magick". Oh well.. back to trying to summon a succubus.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Soadreqm on August 29, 2010, 10:18:31 am
I thought Wicca was some kind of mystery religion founded some time last century. All performing secret rituals and not telling anyone what they're about, the witches. Then again, I think my knowledge comes from a discussion of a revert war at a wikipedia article. Not the article itself, just the discussion pages with editors accusing each other of sockpuppetry.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 29, 2010, 01:28:11 pm
Really? Where at? I spent the last two years of High School in Oromocto. My ex-girlfriend was a pseudo-Wiccan at one point before I met her.
@_@

I'm about five minutes outside of Oromocto, pretty close to Geary. It's a seriously damn small world. Very likely we actually never met even though I've been here for about thirteen years because I was homeschooled, but yeah.


You're one of those Home Schooled Pentecostal kids, eh? You would have gone to high school with me otherwise, assuming you're old enough.

Well, maybe you HAVE heard of me. I'll PM you my real name, we'll compare notes.

Since you're in the Pentecostal scene, do you know Chris and Kaitlyn Comeau?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Willfor on August 29, 2010, 01:57:02 pm
Really? Where at? I spent the last two years of High School in Oromocto. My ex-girlfriend was a pseudo-Wiccan at one point before I met her.
@_@

I'm about five minutes outside of Oromocto, pretty close to Geary. It's a seriously damn small world. Very likely we actually never met even though I've been here for about thirteen years because I was homeschooled, but yeah.


You're one of those Home Schooled Pentecostal kids, eh? You would have gone to high school with me otherwise, assuming you're old enough.

Well, maybe you HAVE heard of me. I'll PM you my real name, we'll compare notes.

Since you're in the Pentecostal scene, do you know Chris and Kaitlyn Comeau?

I'm almost 25, so it's been a little while since High School.

It's entirely possible I've seen them, but I can't say as I run in the same circles they do. My dad's church is one of the smaller, lesser-known ones with a group of about 7-10 families, and we've been meeting at the old oddfellows hall. You probably wouldn't recognise it now since we managed to get rid of most of the graffiti (it will be back of course, since it's right between the school and the mall...) (and by we, I don't mean me, because I was at work that day, sweet justice)
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Leafsnail on August 29, 2010, 05:57:06 pm
For me, a witch = a person who can use magic.  As such, I'd probably have said I don't believe in them.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 29, 2010, 06:00:34 pm


When my college biology class was supposed to practice with condoms, we used zucchinis.  No one actually had to stay, because they got too many angry letters, but I thought it was entertaining.  They were unlubricated, so I tried to make balloon animals.
ZUCCHINI!
(http://www.18to88.com/images/jawa.jpg)
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on August 29, 2010, 08:31:33 pm
I'd say what a useless waste of money, but there's one thing these screaming babies are teaching me. When you think you know everything about birth control, you fuck up.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on August 29, 2010, 08:32:48 pm
I'd say what a useless waste of money, but there's one thing these screaming babies are teaching me. When you think you know everything about birth control, you fuck up.

What will be hilarious is if they somehow find this forum ten years from now, and see their daddy admitting they were mistakes.  Won't that be awkward.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on August 29, 2010, 08:44:47 pm
This is what I read.

Rational rational rational understandable rational reasonable rational. The whole thing was thought up by a hippy INSANE STUPID RIDICULOUS ASININE HEDONIST CHILDISH INDULGENT NUTJOB BULLSHIT.

Hippy is one of my trigger words. You'd be better off waving a red cape at a bull towing a dozen lawnmowers.

Edit: "Kids, you're two magical bundles of joy and brought my wife and I closer together than ever before and even likely saved our marriage. ALSO YOUR MOTHER CAN'T REMEMBER HER MEDICINE AND GOD WORKED IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: nenjin on August 29, 2010, 08:51:46 pm
This is what I read.

Rational rational rational understandable rational reasonable rational. The whole thing was thought up by a hippy INSANE STUPID RIDICULOUS ASININE HEDONIST CHILDISH INDULGENT NUTJOB BULLSHIT.

This is why most Wiccans I know of just choose not to talk about what they believe. They can't do so without having someone judge them on the spot and start throwing out terms. To put it terms staunch Christians might under stand, it's like walking up to every Catholic you see and screaming "PEDOPHILE" as though the entire religion condones it.

The fact one group criticizes another over believing in god-like powers of the natural world, without being able to prove it, is also hilarious. But then again the Church never was big on relativism.

Quote
AND GOD WORKED IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS.

Case in point.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on August 29, 2010, 09:00:48 pm
I think you may have replied to my jest with a personal attack, sir. I don't know if I should chide you or invite you to the club.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: nenjin on August 29, 2010, 09:05:43 pm
'Twas only an attack, sir, I'm not sure if it's personal yet.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on August 29, 2010, 09:17:26 pm
Hey Aqizzar! See where this is going?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Josephus on August 29, 2010, 09:21:34 pm
This is going to end in another honor duel, isn't it.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Realmfighter on August 29, 2010, 09:23:04 pm
I call the selling of the foodstuffs.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on August 29, 2010, 10:27:38 pm
By my troth!

Forsooth!

Various other Shakespearey terms I don't really understand the meaning of!!!

Kinda funny how disney always talks about magic while at the same time apparently promoting "good christian values" while trying to get prepubescent children with sex appeal....  Disney is just so damn evil.

Though actually they're evil for totally different reasons.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 30, 2010, 02:04:11 am
Really? Where at? I spent the last two years of High School in Oromocto. My ex-girlfriend was a pseudo-Wiccan at one point before I met her.
@_@

I'm about five minutes outside of Oromocto, pretty close to Geary. It's a seriously damn small world. Very likely we actually never met even though I've been here for about thirteen years because I was homeschooled, but yeah.


You're one of those Home Schooled Pentecostal kids, eh? You would have gone to high school with me otherwise, assuming you're old enough.

Well, maybe you HAVE heard of me. I'll PM you my real name, we'll compare notes.

Since you're in the Pentecostal scene, do you know Chris and Kaitlyn Comeau?

I'm almost 25, so it's been a little while since High School.

It's entirely possible I've seen them, but I can't say as I run in the same circles they do. My dad's church is one of the smaller, lesser-known ones with a group of about 7-10 families, and we've been meeting at the old oddfellows hall. You probably wouldn't recognise it now since we managed to get rid of most of the graffiti (it will be back of course, since it's right between the school and the mall...) (and by we, I don't mean me, because I was at work that day, sweet justice)

I used to walk by their all the time on my way to the mall during the lunch hour, dude. You actually have religious gatherings in there? Every time I went by, it was just people smoking pot and having sex. Last time I remember paying attention to the graffiti, it was about how much God loved me, though.

Thinking of the other Christian kids in the area, what about Christina Entz?

I can't really think of many more. There are a few, but those were the ones that stick out in my mind as being memorable. Everybody else I know/knew weren't part of a churchgoing crowd.

EDIT: Did you know that OHS was featured in High Times Magazine as one of the top 10 places in Canada to score marijuana?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: RedKing on August 30, 2010, 06:14:35 am
it's like walking up to every Catholic you see and screaming "PEDOPHILE" as though the entire religion condones it.

I thought that was pretty much default behavior by now. At least for the clergy.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 30, 2010, 06:34:35 am
Of course you're making a joke. I have to believe that because I still have my faith in humanity.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Willfor on August 30, 2010, 02:52:54 pm
I used to walk by their all the time on my way to the mall during the lunch hour, dude. You actually have religious gatherings in there? Every time I went by, it was just people smoking pot and having sex. Last time I remember paying attention to the graffiti, it was about how much God loved me, though.

Thinking of the other Christian kids in the area, what about Christina Entz?

I can't really think of many more. There are a few, but those were the ones that stick out in my mind as being memorable. Everybody else I know/knew weren't part of a churchgoing crowd.

EDIT: Did you know that OHS was featured in High Times Magazine as one of the top 10 places in Canada to score marijuana?

At first our church decided that as long as there was graffiti we were going to make it our own, but it seemed to make the whole place look worse. More is expected, and there's little to be done about it.

I DO know Christina Entz actually.

I wouldn't doubt that OHS is very near the top of that list. When I took Driver's ED, there was more talk about pot than driving. Even from the instructor.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on August 30, 2010, 09:10:54 pm
That's because Gerard is a dick.

He was fired last summer, though.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Eagleon on September 05, 2010, 10:02:54 pm
I'd just like to chime in that wicca isn't really what every 'witch' is. Suffice it to say there's any number of occult traditions, both recent and ancient, which a self-described 'witch' may partake in. They range from off-the-wall non-scientific bullshit to more meditative/shamanistic beliefs, and any particular individual will usually put their own spin on things.

I have a high tolerance for new-age stupidity vs. dogmatic stupidity. The former inevitably expresses a certain degree of creativity once a person has stuck with it for long enough, regardless of whether they entered into it as a fad or as a personal belief, because there isn't really much in occultism (besides Golden Dawn and more historical stuff) that will try to say that one set of practices is the only thing that could possibly work, by divine edict.

No one's getting past thermodynamics, but talking about gaelic, self-hypnosis, simulationism, etc. with an occultist is a lot more interesting to me than arguing about whether I'm going to hell or not for my porn collection.

Edit: Also, I just realized that this tab has been up for days and I haven't bothered to check the last posting date. Derp. xD
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Josephus on September 05, 2010, 10:45:42 pm
No one's getting past thermodynamics, but talking about gaelic, self-hypnosis, simulationism, etc. with an occultist is a lot more interesting to me than arguing about whether I'm going to hell or not for my porn collection.

Yahweh IS the first law of thermodynamics. The immutable physical laws are the commandments. We are matter and energy's bitch.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: smigenboger on September 05, 2010, 10:51:47 pm
Some wiccans may argue that you'll go to hell because your porn collection isn't hardcore enough
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Bohandas on June 15, 2011, 10:58:27 pm
MSN has an article about how Americans believe in silly things, and lists 'witches' as a silly thing to believe in. I'm sure my Wiccan neighbors appreciate being considered fictional constructs of superstition. I wonder if druids are also fictional constructs, because I'm sure my college roommate would love to hear that.

I'm sorry for necroing this thread, but I have to speak up on this.
Saying that saying that not believing in "witches" is the same as not believing in Wiccans is roughly equivalent to saying that not believing in "Yetis" is the same as not believing in members of the Church of The SubGenius (http://www.subgenius.com/pams/pam2p3.html)

There are very few people who associate Wicca with Witchcraft who are not either wiccans themselves or intentionally making the connection to be annoying.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 15, 2011, 11:01:31 pm
I'd just like to chime in that wicca isn't really what every 'witch' is. Suffice it to say there's any number of occult traditions, both recent and ancient, which a self-described 'witch' may partake in. They range from off-the-wall non-scientific bullshit to more meditative/shamanistic beliefs, and any particular individual will usually put their own spin on things.

There's also the type of "witch" that was basically made up as a scare tactic by Christians (possibly the Catholic Church?). You know, the scary old lady who'll boil your unbaptized babies and turn them into a salve so she can fly on brooms, and that sort of thing.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Bohandas on June 15, 2011, 11:06:11 pm
I'd just like to chime in that wicca isn't really what every 'witch' is. Suffice it to say there's any number of occult traditions, both recent and ancient, which a self-described 'witch' may partake in. They range from off-the-wall non-scientific bullshit to more meditative/shamanistic beliefs, and any particular individual will usually put their own spin on things.

There's also the type of "witch" that was basically made up as a scare tactic by Christians (possibly the Catholic Church?). You know, the scary old lady who'll boil your unbaptized babies and turn them into a salve so she can fly on brooms, and that sort of thing.

That is of course, in fact, the standard definition of the word "Witch" (BTW, IIRC the word literally means "twisted" in German); an evil mythological being.

I lay the blame squarely on L. Frank Baum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IRe2HwMr2w) for the popularization of the bullshit new age definition of the word.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 15, 2011, 11:16:54 pm
I sincerely doubt that the appropriation of the word "witch" by the New Age/neopagan/Wiccan community has anything to do with the "good witches" in The Wizard of Oz.

In fact, the word "Wicca" is pretty much the same damn word (well, a much, much older version) as "witch". Judging from what possible etymologies I can find, it doesn't come from anything meaning "twisted"; most etymologies just have to do with the practice of witchcraft/sorcery, as well as things like necromancy and herbalism.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 15, 2011, 11:20:21 pm
Bohandas, what is it with you and the Church of the SubGenius? You mention it almost every day.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Bohandas on June 15, 2011, 11:36:42 pm
Bohandas, what is it with you and the Church of the SubGenius? You mention it almost every day.

Technically every day if you count the screen name and the avatar (Look closely; it's NOT the Yellow Sign of H*stur)
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 15, 2011, 11:37:52 pm
And the signature.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on June 16, 2011, 12:18:56 am
There are very few people who associate Wicca with Witchcraft who are not either wiccans themselves or intentionally making the connection to be annoying.


This statement doesn't even make sense.

I can't even begin.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 16, 2011, 01:36:47 am
I think he's saying that people don't correlate the concepts unless they're either Wiccans reappropriating the term "witchcraft", or people who call them "witches" in a derogatory manner.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Max White on June 16, 2011, 02:08:14 am
MSN has an article about how Americans believe in silly things, and lists 'witches' as a silly thing to believe in. I'm sure my Wiccan neighbors appreciate being considered fictional constructs of superstition. I wonder if druids are also fictional constructs, because I'm sure my college roommate would love to hear that.

Also hard science degrees and nature worship seem like an odd combination. I should have asked him about that.
Maybe the auther of this article is refering to witches as described by the church in the dark ages?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 16, 2011, 03:17:29 am
That was my interpretation. You know, the kind from that one Jack Chick tract about Dungeons & Dragons.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on June 16, 2011, 04:17:32 am
This thread reminds me of the fact that I know who Willfor is in real life.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: ETV on June 16, 2011, 07:10:56 am
Wiccans, Druids and other newage religeons do seem quite silly to me actualy. All the more if they have a degree in science, as that would mean they have a lot of contradictionary convictions.

I think a Wiccan scientist is quite appropriate.

Take a light bulb back to the days electricity wasn't known of, and demonstrate it, the only thing people could describe it as would be magic and impossible.

The same would apply to some obscure space age technology being presented before we had developed it; that's magic!

Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Dwarf on June 16, 2011, 07:20:18 am
Well, the problem I have with Wiccans is that they're some kind of batshit hippy new-age perversion of actual pagan beliefs, but that's just me.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on June 16, 2011, 07:35:34 am
MSN has an article about how Americans believe in silly things, and lists 'witches' as a silly thing to believe in. I'm sure my Wiccan neighbors appreciate being considered fictional constructs of superstition. I wonder if druids are also fictional constructs, because I'm sure my college roommate would love to hear that.

Also hard science degrees and nature worship seem like an odd combination. I should have asked him about that.
Maybe the auther of this article is refering to witches as described by the church in the dark ages?
That would make the article the epitome of obsolensence. In any case, this suggestion that the respondees to the poll were superstitious rednecks believing in old hags and cauldrons instead of people, say, who's heard of Wicca from their old hippie friend in the 60's... well it is interesting to say the least, but entirely conjecture.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: DJ on June 16, 2011, 07:44:14 am
I wouldn't be at all surprised if a significant percentage of rednecks believed in old hags with cauldrons.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on June 16, 2011, 07:51:16 am
I wouldn't be surprised at all if a significant percentage of Bosnians beleived in stereotypes.

Touche. And now for a disarming smiley face.  :D
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: DJ on June 16, 2011, 07:55:04 am
Don't be so intolerant, my belief in stereotypes has more grounding in reality than Young Earth Creationism or whatever it is that you Americans believe in.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on June 16, 2011, 07:58:42 am
You're right Nikov, your jokes do attract angry reactions more than most, even when they're obvious. It's starting to get strange.

Of course, DJ could be joking too but if he is he's being subtler about it. If he is, then I knew that, I was just joking!
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on June 16, 2011, 07:58:55 am
That would make the article the epitome of obsolensence. In any case, this suggestion that the respondees to the poll were superstitious rednecks believing in old hags and cauldrons instead of people, say, who's heard of Wicca from their old hippie friend in the 60's... well it is interesting to say the least, but entirely conjecture.

It can't be that hard to believe.  Speaking as someone who knew (I can't bring myself to say "hung out with") a couple of the stereotypical black-notebook Hot Topic "Wiccans" in high school, and saw how people reacted to them; very few people have ever heard of actual Wiccans, and even fewer know what it means or that there even is a distinction to honest modern druids.  I know that could be hard to grasp by somebody married to one, but it really is a bizarre and foreign anomaly to most people; a weird cult thing abnormal people get into to make themselves feel superior, like Scientology or Kabbalah but for outcast teenagers.  This has nothing to do with actual Wiccans, it's what most of the very few people who've heard the term more than once remember.

As for the study about people believing witches are real, a significant portion of Americans think honest to God, tangible angels walk amongst us (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/19/half-of-americans-believe-in-angels/).  Who knows what the witch people actually think they're referring to.  I've met more than a couple people who swear haunted house attractions at theme parks are the Devil's work, because glorifying the damned attracts evil.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: DJ on June 16, 2011, 08:01:08 am
Of course, DJ could be joking too but if he is he's being subtler about it. If he is, then I knew that, I was just joking!
I just proclaimed that stereotyping is my religion, do I seriously need sarcasm tags with that?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on June 16, 2011, 08:04:46 am
Of course, DJ could be joking too but if he is he's being subtler about it. If he is, then I knew that, I was just joking!
I just proclaimed that stereotyping is my religion, do I seriously need sarcasm tags with that?
Oh, I thought you just believed most stereotypes were accurate. Or something. The point stands even without you actually being annoyed, it's just a non-sequiter now, so that's all right.

That would make the article the epitome of obsolensence. In any case, this suggestion that the respondees to the poll were superstitious rednecks believing in old hags and cauldrons instead of people, say, who's heard of Wicca from their old hippie friend in the 60's... well it is interesting to say the least, but entirely conjecture.

It can't be that hard to believe.  Speaking as someone who knew (I can't bring myself to say "hung out with") a couple of the stereotypical black-notebook Hot Topic "Wiccans" in high school, and saw how people reacted to them; very few people have ever heard of actual Wiccans, and even fewer know what it means or that there even is a distinction to honest modern druids.  I know that could be hard to grasp by somebody married to one, but it really is a bizarre and foreign anomaly to most people; a weird cult thing abnormal people get into to make themselves feel superior, like Scientology or Kabbalah but for outcast teenagers.  This has nothing to do with actual Wiccans, it's what most of the very few people who've heard the term more than once remember.

As for the study about people believing witches are real, a significant portion of Americans think honest to God, tangible angels walk amongst us (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/19/half-of-americans-believe-in-angels/).  Who knows what the witch people actually think they're referring to.  I've met more than a couple people who swear haunted house attractions at theme parks are the Devil's work, because glorifying the damned attracts evil.
Well, I hear witches feature prominently in American politics.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on June 16, 2011, 08:08:36 am
That they do.  Also, holy shit, that article.  I thought it was a different one when I linked it, but it's actually some weird push-study by Baylor University, by some guy with a huge chip on his shoulder about atheists.  I'd put his analysis and commentary into question, but the actual poll results are pretty solid, I've seen the study before.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on June 16, 2011, 08:11:45 am
Yeah, anyone who basically says "Athiests are just very angry people that need to be ignored" is kind of a douche.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: ETV on June 16, 2011, 08:14:30 am
Yeah, anyone who basically says "Athiests are just very angry people that need to be ignored" is kind of a douche.

I usually ignore such people.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on June 16, 2011, 11:05:58 am
Quote
“There was only one decline in church attendance and that was in the late 1960s,” Mr. Stark said, “when the Vatican said it was not a sin to miss Mass. They said Catholics could act like Protestants, and so they did.”

1. Become Catholic.
2. Sleep in on Sunday.
3. Quote the Pope to my wife when she gets all cross (ho-ho).
4. Profit!
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Leafsnail on June 16, 2011, 11:08:03 am
Quote
Europe does have more atheists than the U.S., the survey said, but no country has more than 7 percent except France, which is at 14 percent of the populace.
I'm pretty sure this just straightup isn't true.  Certainly, I can't find any figures as low as that for the UK.  I'd be interested to see their sampling method.

Also, almost every conclusion he draws isn't particularly supported by his evidence.  Eh.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: DJ on June 16, 2011, 11:10:21 am
IIRC Estonia is something like 70% atheist.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Africa on June 16, 2011, 11:16:38 am
Fun fact: Judaism isn't the oldest Abrahamic religion. It's tied with Samaritanism. Nobody can really say which is older.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 16, 2011, 11:39:08 am
IIRC Estonia is something like 70% atheist.
IIRC Sweden is 45% atheist, but also 95% identify as nonreligious.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 16, 2011, 12:41:13 pm
Well, the problem I have with Wiccans is that they're some kind of batshit hippy new-age perversion of actual pagan beliefs, but that's just me.

Do you really have to be such an intolerant ass about this? Seriously, I don't think referring to people's religion as a "batshit hippy new-age perversion" is very conducive to discussion.


You're calling a religion a perversion for drawing inspiration from another, older, set of beliefs while not necessarily following them to the letter. What exactly is wrong with that? Religions change over time just like language does. You'd have to call pretty much every modern religion a "perversion" of something-or-other.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on June 16, 2011, 02:14:20 pm
There's quite a bit of fun-poking at ignrant cristuns on this forum, but if you put the shoe on another foot, hoooo boy.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 16, 2011, 02:20:12 pm
I'd be saying the same thing if he had said that about Christians.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Leafsnail on June 16, 2011, 02:41:27 pm
Yeah.  If some poll showed that 95% of Swiss people are nonreligious and the person used that as basis to say...
"The irreligious people don’t care about the religious people, but the religious are prickly. I think they’re just angry (subtext: they know God doesn't exist but are just saying he does to be difficult).”
It'd still be a stupid conclusion.  Basically, there's nothing in that poll at all to suggest that atheists are angry, prickly, secretly believe in God or are ignorant or whatever.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Dwarf on June 16, 2011, 03:05:29 pm
Well, the problem I have with Wiccans is that they're some kind of batshit hippy new-age perversion of actual pagan beliefs, but that's just me.

Do you really have to be such an intolerant ass about this? Seriously, I don't think referring to people's religion as a "batshit hippy new-age perversion" is very conducive to discussion.


You're calling a religion a perversion for drawing inspiration from another, older, set of beliefs while not necessarily following them to the letter. What exactly is wrong with that? Religions change over time just like language does. You'd have to call pretty much every modern religion a "perversion" of something-or-other.

Okay, I'll agree the word "perversion" was over the top and definitely exaggerated.

I just have trouble in seeing anything else in Wicca than some religion made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old put together into some kind of, as the name implies, neopagan conglomerate. If I shall be a bit vulgar, it just seems to me somebody pulled the whole thing out of their ass, because their belief doesn't originate in the early days of humanity, nor has it evolved from another belief.
I don't hate Wiccans or anything, but to me, it's just meh. It's built on highly questionable claims.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on June 16, 2011, 07:11:34 pm
There's quite a bit of fun-poking at ignrant cristuns on this forum, but if you put the shoe on another foot, hoooo boy.

It is just fun-poking though, and there's been fun-poking at wiccans in this very thread. But I think near everyone agrees that just calling it bat-shit crazy is being an asshole, and nobody wants to deal with it.

So it's all cool, we're basically on your side, depending on how far your definition of fun-poking stretches. But I for one am most certainly not on Dwarfs. Be less of a douchebag and be more conducive to discussion. Vitriol breeds vitriol (I wouldn't have called you a douchebag otherwise, though I stand by that, cause that was hella douchey) and helps nobody. Is it so hard to express your opinion in a positive manner? Here, I'll rewrite this whole post so I do too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But my original post stands because you made me angry by being an ass.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Nikov on June 16, 2011, 07:17:13 pm
Excessive use of the word 'you' is making me confused.

Ultimately I'm trying to say "simmer down everyone". I think Dwarf certainly put it very bluntly and I find that disrespectful but I've seen similar bluntness elsewhere. I want to avoid assigning blame and have everyone get along. I guess I can lock it if that isn't possible.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on June 16, 2011, 07:18:43 pm
Everything after 'stretches' is aimed at Dwarf.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on June 16, 2011, 08:39:47 pm
I just have trouble in seeing anything else in Wicca than some religion made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old put together into some kind of, as the name implies, neopagan conglomerate.

Which religions do you partake in which are not made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Fenrir on June 16, 2011, 08:41:24 pm
I think his point is that Wicca was created by someone that should have known better and probably did know better. (I personally could not say if this is true or not.)
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on June 16, 2011, 08:42:18 pm
Known better than to have done what?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Fenrir on June 16, 2011, 08:45:32 pm
Known better than to have created that religion. That is; he supposes that the religion's founder knew that the religion was not in any way truthful.

Of course, I may well be wrong, but I think this is what Dwarf means.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Aqizzar on June 16, 2011, 08:45:51 pm
I just have trouble in seeing anything else in Wicca than some religion made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old put together into some kind of, as the name implies, neopagan conglomerate.

Which religions do you partake in which are not made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old?

I think his point is more that Wicca was arrived at by a scholar of paganism that sat down and built a new faith by picking and choosing parts of different mythological traditions with deliberate intent.  All religions mix new and old sure, but they weren't designed with conscious effort to look or appeal a certain way, they were arrived at by a thousand accidents of history.  Wicca is not alone in this, Kwanza, Mormanism, and the Kabbalah branch of modern Judaism all get the same criticisms.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Dwarf on June 16, 2011, 08:50:16 pm
But I for one am most certainly not on Dwarfs. Be less of a douchebag and be more conducive to discussion. Vitriol breeds vitriol (I wouldn't have called you a douchebag otherwise, though I stand by that, cause that was hella douchey) and helps nobody. Is it so hard to express your opinion in a positive manner? Here, I'll rewrite this whole post so I do too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But my original post stands because you made me angry by being an ass.

I'm sorry for my asshattery, but I don't see any more asshattery in my second post.

EDIT: Okay, I used "to pull out of one's ass", I guess that could be offensive.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Eagleon on June 16, 2011, 09:24:42 pm
I think his point is more that Wicca was arrived at by a scholar of paganism that sat down and built a new faith by picking and choosing parts of different mythological traditions with deliberate intent.  All religions mix new and old sure, but they weren't designed with conscious effort to look or appeal a certain way, they were arrived at by a thousand accidents of history.  Wicca is not alone in this, Kwanza, Mormanism, and the Kabbalah branch of modern Judaism all get the same criticisms.
I never personally got why everyone didn't just do this. I mean, if you're going to claim to be able to commune with some sort of divinity (inner or otherwise), you might as well figure it out for yourself what it needs. Obviously you'd want to draw from the experiences of others when it makes sense, but when they're doing something you see as stupid and harmful it's a little bit escapist to trust implicitly that it makes sense on some other level you can't see. And when you see useful human insight from foreign mythology, it's downright bullheaded to discard it because it didn't come from your parents or your religious leader.

Basically to me this isn't so much a criticism as a complement, and many other "neopagans" I've encountered feel the same.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Jackrabbit on June 16, 2011, 09:28:11 pm
But I for one am most certainly not on Dwarfs. Be less of a douchebag and be more conducive to discussion. Vitriol breeds vitriol (I wouldn't have called you a douchebag otherwise, though I stand by that, cause that was hella douchey) and helps nobody. Is it so hard to express your opinion in a positive manner? Here, I'll rewrite this whole post so I do too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But my original post stands because you made me angry by being an ass.

I'm sorry for my asshattery, but I don't see any more asshattery in my second post.

EDIT: Okay, I used "to pull out of one's ass", I guess that could be offensive.
Yes, your second post was fine, I used it as an example.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: lordcooper on June 17, 2011, 02:00:40 am
I just have trouble in seeing anything else in Wicca than some religion made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old put together into some kind of, as the name implies, neopagan conglomerate. If I shall be a bit vulgar, it just seems to me somebody pulled the whole thing out of their ass, because their belief doesn't originate in the early days of humanity, nor has it evolved from another belief.

I identified as a Wiccan throughout my teens, but have drifted away from it over the years.  My beliefs and practices nowadays would still fall under the neopagan label, but are a lot closer to traditional shamanism/druidism with a liberal dosage of ritual entheogen/hallucinogen usage added in.  Despite that, they still contain elements of Judeo-Christian and Buddhist concepts which I have essentially tacked on because they make sense to me.  I'm a strong believer in (the crappily named) chaos magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic) in that belief itself seems to be the important thing, rather than what exactly is being believed in.  Sure, I've 'pulled the entire thing out of my ass,' but what I've ended up with is a set of religious/spiritual concepts that I agree with 100%, with the possibility for these convictions to shift as I grow emotionally, intellectually and spiritually.  That's basically what Wicca as a whole has done.  Not all belief systems need to date back 2000 years or have an inflexible/dogmatic approach.  What's so bad about that?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 17, 2011, 02:17:26 pm
I just have trouble in seeing anything else in Wicca than some religion made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old put together into some kind of, as the name implies, neopagan conglomerate.

Which religions do you partake in which are not made up completely from different, rather random parts of mythology recent and old?

I think his point is more that Wicca was arrived at by a scholar of paganism that sat down and built a new faith by picking and choosing parts of different mythological traditions with deliberate intent.  All religions mix new and old sure, but they weren't designed with conscious effort to look or appeal a certain way, they were arrived at by a thousand accidents of history.  Wicca is not alone in this, Kwanza, Mormanism, and the Kabbalah branch of modern Judaism all get the same criticisms.

Even this is an oversimplification. Very many major changes in religion (and many major religions themselves) are still the results (at least partially) of intentional reform or some new religious leader's ideas being made popular. Granted, it's usually some combination of that and what you're saying.


At any rate, why is one any worse than the other? Why is it wrong for someone to intentionally create his own syncretic religion, but okay for one to arise through what amounts to chance cultural intermingling? Why does it matter how old a belief system is, or whether or not it directly evolved from another religion (which isn't really any less true of Wicca than most other religions anyhow)?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Duke 2.0 on June 17, 2011, 02:27:06 pm
 I don't wish to take sides in this, but I would like to acknowledge an aspect of this. When a system of belief has been around for thousands of years a lot of it has changed from the original interpretation. It goes to the point where the core concept may be the same, but the surrounding ideas supporting that idea have changed over time to anonymous people. It's something that evolved with no real control by any one person. Whereas younger systems of thought can generally be traced to a single person or group of people, you would have to have large faith in these people to not screw things up. It's a problem between looking over the merits of a system of thought or the merits and the trustworthiness of the creator of a system of thought.

 I also subscribe to a system of beliefs that can originate from a Korean guy that is still alive so I know the problems of believing a young belief system. There may not be any real differences between something somebody came up with recently and something that evolved over thousands of years, but there is a real aspect of how trustworthy it is. As well as cultural familiarity, as some systems of belief have the grace of growing up with cultures and provide more comfort and peace to those in such cultures.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Africa on June 17, 2011, 02:29:38 pm
@lordcooper

Being 2000+ years old and having its origins lost in the mists of time doesn't make a religious belief more valid, but what it DOES do is make it uncertain that the belief was pulled wholesale out of someone's butt. In the case of newer religions, like Islam, Druze-ism, Baha'i, Mormonism, etc, we have historical documents about the founder and we know that they basically made it up themselves. Of course, with Christianity and Judaism, we have stories about founders, but history either knows next to nothing about them, or else they may as well be mythological. So hell, maybe God DID appear to the whole nation of Israel on Mt. Sinai. Maybe Jesus DID do a bunch of miracles in front of people. Whereas, we know that Joseph Smith just made up some story about golden plates, which contained blatant factual errors and clearly made-up names, so there's a concrete reason to give Mormonism less credence than standard Christianity.

Also, I read that wikipedia article on "chaos magic" and it seemed like a bunch of gibberish, but I definitely couldn't find a part where it says what the "magic" actually does.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 17, 2011, 02:37:01 pm
On one hand, I'll agree (in cases like Scientology and Mormonism) that a clear history of a religion's founding can make the motives and faults of its founders more clear.

On the other hand... in the case of Mormonism, would the factual errors somehow become less erroneous if the book were written a millenium earlier? Whether we know who Joseph Smith is or not, we still know that the Americas didn't have, say, the animals that the Book of Mormon mentions the region having.


Also: Who really cares whether someone "made up" a religion or it's been around for aeons? Why does it matter, at all? Why do you somehow have more confidence in something just because it's so old that it's harder to prove or disprove, especially when we're talking about religions that don't even rely on divine revelation in the first place?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Eagleon on June 17, 2011, 05:25:57 pm
Also, I read that wikipedia article on "chaos magic" and it seemed like a bunch of gibberish, but I definitely couldn't find a part where it says what the "magic" actually does.
Essentially, chaos magic abandons concrete ritualistic traditions for magic (or "prayer" - really, there's not much difference) in favor of emphasizing the importance of altered states of consciousness, most particularly strong belief. A "good" Chaos Magician could switch from counting rosary beads to invoking the third horn of Lurr of Omicron Persei 8, in complete seriousness (well, mostly, I think they could still see the absurdity) and without regard to how much sense it makes mythologically or culturally. It's not so much a way of magic as a belief about the mechanics of it. Religious traditions and cultural elements are seen as a useful guide for your meditation and intent, instead of insight into how the universe actually works, and whatever contradictions you might attempt to reconcile are something else entirely.

Disclaimer: I'm an internalist shaman and simulist, I don't do the magic thing except in my dreams.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Dwarf on June 17, 2011, 05:31:52 pm
You'll have to forgive me if I didn't really understand any of that.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Eagleon on June 17, 2011, 06:50:05 pm
You'll have to forgive me if I didn't really understand any of that.
Really? None of it? That doesn't give me much to work on. I could just say chaos magic interprets everything and every tradition as the same thing (a tool to work magic), but that's not strictly correct either. It doesn't ignore the differences, and it doesn't force you to believe or not believe in anything. It works with their differences, because underneath it all is the belief that belief (or prayer, or magic, or whatever) has power, and your mind will act differently when believing in different things.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: G-Flex on June 23, 2011, 03:25:03 am
underneath it all is the belief that belief (or prayer, or magic, or whatever) has power

Hasn't pretty much every scientific study done on this (power of prayer, etc.) shown it to be false, at least as much as is possible?
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 23, 2011, 03:30:20 am
underneath it all is the belief that belief (or prayer, or magic, or whatever) has power

Hasn't pretty much every scientific study done on this (power of prayer, etc.) shown it to be false, at least as much as is possible?
This study concluded that knowing people were praying for you to recover from injury made things worse. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567)
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Grakelin on June 23, 2011, 03:43:19 am
They just lack faith.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Bohandas on August 22, 2011, 11:20:43 pm
underneath it all is the belief that belief (or prayer, or magic, or whatever) has power

Hasn't pretty much every scientific study done on this (power of prayer, etc.) shown it to be false, at least as much as is possible?
This study concluded that knowing people were praying for you to recover from injury made things worse. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567)

Maybe they didn't pick the right god to pray to.
Title: Re: New Poll Denies Existance of Wicca
Post by: Max White on August 22, 2011, 11:21:11 pm
Necro'd?