Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Test on Bolts and Weight  (Read 11629 times)

IT 000

  • Bay Watcher
  • Strange Mood
    • View Profile
Test on Bolts and Weight
« on: July 30, 2011, 02:06:23 pm »

Now I have often heard on the boards that bolts made of heavier materials are better. Being a modder I was a bit skeptical, bolts use the EDGE tag, thus weight does not effect them, or effects them very little at all. Note that I said weight, not size, increasing the size is not a good enough example as it provides a bonus to the basic attack of the weapon. You need to create a new metal which has a higher density in order to have an accurate comparison.

After some initial results I continued testing, expecting the same results as the Adamantine, about 50/50, give or take a few.

However this time I tested it with Iron and Heavy Iron with 10x the density (and thus weight) of regular iron. All dwarves were set up in the following format. For convenience, the Heavy Iron dwarves look like the soldier tile, while the Light Dwarves look like the normal peasant tile.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

:::TEST ONE:::

Each dwarf was competent in the marksman, and archery skill. Without a place to dodge or run to, the test has zero chance of having the bolt suddenly change course. Each is armed with a crossbow and 100 bolts of their material.

The battle commenced, the constant flutter of bolts and red liquid filled the screen. In a few moments it ended.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The results were terrifying, Normal Iron had 58 kills, compared to Heavy Iron’s 38 kills (with 4 ties)

If anything the heavy bolts had an adverse effect on the firing dwarves. Additionally the attacks by the Heavy Iron dwarves were no better then the attacks by the normal iron. A bolt would hit the dwarf in the chest, and break an organ. Regardless of weight.

RESULTS
Normal Iron : 58 kills
Heavy Iron : 38 kills
Ties : 4

:::TEST TWO:::

Personally I was flabbergasted, I predicted a pretty close 50/50 match, after all. I predicted weight had very little effect on the dwarves. So I ran the test a second time, using the same set up.

So here we go again…

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Again, an overwhelming victory from the Normal Iron bolts

RESULTS
Normal Iron : 64
Heavy : 35
Tie : 1

Heavy Iron suffered even more losses, and Normal Iron made even more gains. Furthermore, Heavy Iron yielded no extra damage over normal iron. Again, whatever the bolt could do as Iron, it did as Heavy Iron. In fact, the weight appears to be the sole reason why Heavy Iron lost so badly. They were slower then the quicker normal Iron.

::: TEST THREE :::

I pitted two dwarves against two Bronze Colossus (Collusi?) Again, one was given normal iron bolts, the other was given heavy iron bolts. There was no noticeable increase of damage between the two. Furthermore, the normal iron bolts were way faster then their slower counterpart.

:::TEST FOUR:::

I also tested whether the reload rate of the H iron bolts was significant enough to give them a serious disadvantage. I discovered something interesting, it didn't effect it at all, and in fact many times the Heavy Iron fired first. Skill is the only thing that effects reloading speed it seems.

::: CONCLUSION :::

Weight does not effect the combat of bolts. I digress that the weight slowed down the Heavy Iron dwarves, however 10x larger would mean 10x more powerful, and no noticeable differences in the wounds between the dwarves and the bronze colossus further supports my claim. In fact, I hypothesis that the added weight slowed the speed of the heavy iron shot, not just the reloading speed. Making it even less deadly then it's regular iron counterparts.(see test four)

[EDIT]My TEST FOUR data proves my previous hypothesis was wrong. The weight of the object did not effect firing rate or reload time. In dwarf mode at least, both dwarves shot their first shot at the same time and would follow up with another shortly after their first shot landed.

ADDITIONAL DATA

Code: [Select]
[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

The comment text in the raw file for crossbows suggests that the SHOOT_FORCE provides some "velocity" number to the combat calculations, based on the weight of the bolt, but no higher than SHOOT_MAXVEL. We don't know if the code actually works like that. I do know that if you increase both of those variables to large numbers, you can get knockback/send flying critters that get hit by a bolt. Perhaps the SHOOT_MAXVEL prevents adamantine bolts from demonstrating ludicrious results.

tl;dr

Adamantine Bolts > Silver Bolts even with penetrating armor. Weight does not effect bolt damage.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 10:35:13 am by IT 000 »
Logged

***CORROSION v2.14***
<<<More Than Just Zombies>>>
Back from the Dead!

Excedion

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 02:33:08 pm »

Ive been kinda considering this is the case. Despite what people have been saying lead bolts dont really do much damage and seem to mostly just bruise and takes quite a few bolts to kill even a disarmed goblin. Steel bolts seem to do much more damage.
Logged
If adamantine is perfectly rigid, as shown by having 0 strain at fracture in the raw files, then the speed of sound in the metal approaches the speed of light. Adamantine musical instruments would produce ultrasonic vibrations, and cut off the fingers of the musician.

MonkeyHead

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yma o hyd...
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 02:42:27 pm »

So this shows a difference between a material and a x10 material. Now compare the in-game materials to see if the difference is noticeable... I would expect a large difference between wood/bone and any metal, and suspect the metals would be very close.
Logged
This is a blank sig.

USEC_OFFICER

  • Bay Watcher
  • Pulls the strings and makes them ring.
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 04:04:44 pm »

::: CONCLUSION :::

Weight does not effect the combat of bolts. I digress that the weight slowed down the Heavy Iron dwarves, however 10x larger would mean 10x more powerful, and no noticeable differences in the wounds between the dwarves and the bronze colossus further supports my claim. In fact, I hypothesis that the added weight slowed the speed of the heavy iron shot, not just the reloading speed. Making it even less deadly then it's regular iron counterparts.

If weight does affect firing speed through encumbrance, then you'll have to redo the rests to eliminate the encumbrance penalty. In your experiment, you've tried to isolate the damage that each type of bolt did, but your results might have been skewed by the changes in firing speed. I expect that the heavier bolts won't be any more deadly, even after eliminating the damage penalty, but this hypothesis would have to be fully tested. I might do the tests myself.
Logged

Greiger

  • Bay Watcher
  • Reptilian Illuminati member. Keep it secret.
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 04:36:32 pm »

It could be that the 10x heavier than iron bolts are also too heavy to fire from a crossbow at full strength...though the lack of any difference in damage seems to indicate otherwise.


A way to remove the possibility of heavy bolt guys getting slowed down by their ammo could be to modify both creatures to always have 5000 strength.  But while doing that you might as well remove variables from agility, size and endurance as well...

These tests are quite good.  Most ‼SCIENCE‼ I've seen somebody put into ranged combat anyway.   I was always of the mind that weight and materiel cutting power both played an equal part in the effectiveness of a bolt, you seem to be showing that to be wrong so far.
Logged
Disclaimer: Not responsible for dwarven deaths from the use or misuse of this post.
Quote
I don't need friends!! I've got knives!!!

dwarfhoplite

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gentledwarves, prepare for Glory!
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 05:10:40 pm »

What crossbow dorfs are for is: cause enemy pain so they dont fight back while your melee troops finish them.
Any bolts are good for this task.
Logged

Crustypeanut

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ph.Dwarf & Practitioner of ‼MEDICINE‼
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2011, 05:18:08 pm »

No wonder my lone crossbow dwarf using silver bolts hasn't gotten any kills yet..
Logged
Specialsurprise - a Tale of ‼Medicine‼ and ‼Science‼ !

Excedion

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2011, 05:22:50 pm »

What crossbow dorfs are for is: cause enemy pain so they dont fight back while your melee troops finish them.
Any bolts are good for this task.

Not strictly true. Wooden and bone bolts are nigh useless for this against anyone wearing adequate armor. Heavier metal bolts such as lead or penetrating bolts such as steel cause much more pain to the enemy even though it takes nearly a full quiver or more to kill them outright
Logged
If adamantine is perfectly rigid, as shown by having 0 strain at fracture in the raw files, then the speed of sound in the metal approaches the speed of light. Adamantine musical instruments would produce ultrasonic vibrations, and cut off the fingers of the musician.

Draco18s

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2011, 05:29:10 pm »

Just did a test between vanilla iron bolts and vanilla adamantine and had a 54 to 41(+1 unconscious winner, who later recovered) in favor of iron (does not total 100 due to errors in setup which I corrected with an application of magma).

Competent Archer, Marksdwarf, and Armor User, all equipment iron (excepting the ones with adamantine bolts).
Logged

IT 000

  • Bay Watcher
  • Strange Mood
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2011, 05:37:00 pm »

What types of armor were they wearing?

And what was your setup? If the dwarves have a space to dodge to, they will and that could throw off the testing.

Additionally, screenshots of the results would be nice.


After some testing of my own I got around 50/50 Armor proves to be useless as bolts have a small contact area and a large penetration. Not because of the weight itself. Basically it was whoever could incapacitate their opponent first whether by knocking out or by a shot to guts or other organ (which would severely reduce their reload speed) won.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 06:06:22 pm by IT 000 »
Logged

***CORROSION v2.14***
<<<More Than Just Zombies>>>
Back from the Dead!

CaptApollo12

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2011, 06:01:04 pm »

The goal should be to creat a list of most effective bolts

Your results are off because of encumberence
Find the dwarve's wieght limit and the max amount of armor you will have in your tests. Then add as many bolts of the heaviest material to the dwarves until that limit has barely not been reached. You now have your bolt limit

I like your setup with the ability to not dodge - you may want to look into the RNG affecting the fortifications and their effect - replace with grates if nessesary

So run every setup against every other setup and make a table with matchups. In each table record win/loss ratios.
Wood - bone,copper,tin,lead,steel,iron,etc
Bone - copper,tin,lead,steel,iron,etc
etc
etc
For clarity arrange the materials by their max_edge value

That is what I would do if I knew anything about modding XD
Good luck

Edit: you could make the dwarves immune to pain to find a better ratio of what material 'killed them dead'?
I know sicking 50 v 50 would have its drawbacks
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 06:03:32 pm by CaptApollo12 »
Logged
"MONTARON!  You are so AGGRAVATING!   'Tis disturbing to my demeanor..."

CriticallyAshamed

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2011, 06:07:22 pm »

I'd imagine the heavy bolts would have givent he dorfs a speed penalty yeah? Especially since the density was a massive 10x difference. My adventurers can get encumbered by 25 normal bolts nevermind equivalent to 250.

Interesting results however. Maybe try giving the lighter dwarves 10x the bolts of the heavy ones but ensuring there are enough bolts to finish the job so the extra amount doesn't change results?
Logged

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2011, 06:08:42 pm »

I propose a setup where we don't have dwarves shooting eachother, which can throw off the results.

Instead, I suggest that you have two groups of dwarves, each with different bolts, and two identical groups of targets (goblins are ok). The control group is dwarves shooting at goblins with iron bolts, and the test group is dwarves shooting at goblins with heavy iron bolts. Put enough goblins there that there will be survivors once the dwarves run out of ammo. Don't let the groups mingle. Don't let the goblins melee the dwarves. Count the number of surviving goblins, and check injuries.

CaptApollo12

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 06:13:26 pm »

I propose a setup where we don't have dwarves shooting eachother, which can throw off the results.

Instead, I suggest that you have two groups of dwarves, each with different bolts, and two identical groups of targets (goblins are ok). The control group is dwarves shooting at goblins with iron bolts, and the test group is dwarves shooting at goblins with heavy iron bolts. Put enough goblins there that there will be survivors once the dwarves run out of ammo. Don't let the groups mingle. Don't let the goblins melee the dwarves. Count the number of surviving goblins, and check injuries.

+1 lol very good. That is much better.
BTW IT 000 - downloading ur mod now
Logged
"MONTARON!  You are so AGGRAVATING!   'Tis disturbing to my demeanor..."

IT 000

  • Bay Watcher
  • Strange Mood
    • View Profile
Re: Test on Bolts and Weight
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 06:45:03 pm »

I propose a setup where we don't have dwarves shooting eachother, which can throw off the results.

Instead, I suggest that you have two groups of dwarves, each with different bolts, and two identical groups of targets (goblins are ok). The control group is dwarves shooting at goblins with iron bolts, and the test group is dwarves shooting at goblins with heavy iron bolts. Put enough goblins there that there will be survivors once the dwarves run out of ammo. Don't let the groups mingle. Don't let the goblins melee the dwarves. Count the number of surviving goblins, and check injuries.

I did so with the following setup

Code: [Select]
PPPPPPPPPPPP
P.....Fg...P
P.....Fg...P
P....DFg...P
P.....Fg...P
P.....Fg...P
PPPPPPPPPPPP

 No noteable changes in damage between bolts. It didn't prove to be successful as I first thought, dwarves would shoot down one gabbo and then spend all their bolts continuing to shoot at it, most of the time missing because it was prone. Some dodged the attack even without the dodger skill. Additionally three dwarves went into trances and proceeded to gain at least one lethal shot each. Despite having 10 of these pods set up it didn't provide any conclusive results on whether weight has an effect or not. Very disappointing.

Bolts are just way to lethal for this finely tuned test. I'll have to tinker with the penetration in order to see which one is more effective. Then do 1v1 challenges again but only give the dwarves one bolt each, compare the damage that way. But I still expect my conclusion is correct, if you take a look at TEST THREE you'll see that I tested both heavy bolts and

But either way, it looks like it wouldn't matter if you used iron or adamantine in vanilla, each one would get the job done.

:::TEST FOUR:::

I also tested whether the reload rate of the H iron bolts was significant enough to give them a serious disadvantage. I discovered something interesting, it didn't. Oddly enough if both bolts landed at the same time, they both fired again at the same time. Neither side had the advantage speed wise. I'm revising my conclusion and future hypothesis.

Quote from: CaptApollo12
BTW IT 000 - downloading ur mod now

Great! :D Have fun, don't be shy to give feedback on the thread.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 06:53:42 pm by IT 000 »
Logged

***CORROSION v2.14***
<<<More Than Just Zombies>>>
Back from the Dead!
Pages: [1] 2 3 4