I lost the ability to play over $200 worth of games online forever. I'd have to purchase the games over again on a new account to play again.
Thanks
Couldn't you just ask them to unban you? I'm pretty sure they can't just deny you $200 worth of games just because you were using memory altering software.
Were you running an online game at the time? cause if VAC bans you automatically when you are not even playing, that's BS and I'm definitely never, ever buying anything from them. Screw them if they think to tell you what you can and can't run with totally unrelated games.
DrM, just do as Slime and BT said and contact them through phone or mail (or better yet, both) and explain the situation.
I'm just putting this out there as a warning. There is no way I can win this. It has been tried. Everything is automated with no human intervention. If they detect something they consider a cheat or hack, you're banned. That's it.
[ December 11, 2007: Message edited by: DrMorbly ]
I read the EULA, and while they say they have a no tolerance policy to cheaters and that you can and will be banned, I do not believe they have any authority or clause that you agree to that lets them look at the memory of your computer.
quote:
Originally posted by DrMorbly:
<STRONG>This isn't something I can fight. They never unlift bans.</STRONG>
According to the Wikipedia page for VAC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat ), they've lifted bans in the past that were caused by false positives.
quote:
Originally posted by qwertyuiopas:
<STRONG>Even if they don't reverse bans, if they agree with you, they may let you get your games back free or possibly transfer them for you. I have no experience with valve, but it may work.</STRONG>
I hope so. Valve always seemed like the "good guys" to me.
quote:It also says that bans are for an unspecified period, and not permanent.
Originally posted by Erasmus Darwin:
<STRONG>According to the Wikipedia page for VAC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat ), they've lifted bans in the past that were caused by false positives.</STRONG>
[ December 11, 2007: Message edited by: Vanigo ]
Unless the consumers reject these 'big brother' programs then nothing will ever be done. The thing is, consumers don't seem to willing to sacrifice these cool new games to show the big companies that they don't want that. It's only likely to get worse.
Sorry for the rant. It just bugs me.
Also... please, keep us updated on this when Valve responds. I'm very, very concerned.
Oh and, how do you know it was DF utilities? VAC bans never take effect immediately, it's something like a week or more from when it detects cheating, presumably after review.
[ December 11, 2007: Message edited by: Core Xii ]
On the other hand there are still a few companies that don't require all that crap. Stardock's Galactic Civ 2 has you register a game id once, and then your never bugged about it again. The only time you have to deal with them at all is to download patches, but even then it checks your file to see its regged and you have to do nothing. Hell, you don't even have to have the cd in to play, unlike many games.
I bought CoH:OP off Steam and have regreted it ever since. Steam missed about a gig(!) of data from the install and took about 2 weeks to fix it. Combine that with the fact that between Steam and CoH's new log ins, I *have* to be online and connected to Steam and the Relic server to play any game mode, including single player and skirmishes. That's not really an issue for me, but it is for some people, and its the principle of it all that pisses me off.
P.S. It didn't help that they never did respond to my ticket or my email about the issue. I finally spliced together the missing sound files from the game's vinilla 1.x to 2.0 patch, which worked fine, until they finally fixed the issue and I had to redownload the Steam version of the files. How do you miss a freaking Gig of data? :mad:
I already got that resounding NO when they responded to my support ticket with, "We do not lift bans. VAC does not make mistakes."
Also, as of VAC2, which was developed with Counter-Strike: Source I believe, VAC bans are permanent.
When they disabled my acount I was pretty pissed off. It felt like they were stealing from me. That's why I'll never trust them again.
Moral: Save money. Play indie games.
quote:
Originally posted by MindSnap:
<STRONG>It may be that I had let two(2) friends play on my account, but thats it. </STRONG>
Oh so you broke the rules in the TOS and are complaining you got caught. I see. Very suave.
Edit: Here is what you agreed to and willfully violated -
"You may not reveal, share or otherwise allow others to use your password or Account."
Anyways, it sucks that using a cheating program got you banned from a completely different game. You should fight it, of course, but it's not like STEAM is screwing people over on purpose. Anyone who is getting all reactionary is being completely absurd.
[ December 12, 2007: Message edited by: Capntastic ]
It looks like you have encountered one of the latter.
Valve isn't the worst of it's kind, look at 2k for that. Bioshock DRM disabled every single game on my pc that has integrated securom. One full reformat later, most of my games are working again but reinstalling bioshock yields a big F*ck You from it's install limit.
Talk to them, email them, send them a link to the program you were using and to the dwarf fortress page.
Who knows, maybe DF will end up on steam ^_^
Seriously though, they will probably be lenient.
quote:
Originally posted by DrMorbly:
<STRONG>Well, since I don't cheat, hack, or have had my account stolen, I deduced that it was some sort of memory changer or something of the like that VAC misinterpreted as a cheat. Since, other than DF, I haven't changed anything on my system in the past 10 years I've had my account on steam, it made sense.I already got that resounding NO when they responded to my support ticket with, "We do not lift bans. VAC does not make mistakes."
Also, as of VAC2, which was developed with Counter-Strike: Source I believe, VAC bans are permanent.</STRONG>
Steam was a bit buggy back before all the stuff that came with the release of Half-Life though.
I can't say I dislike Steam or Securom (never used the former, never had problems with the latter), but the situation with these protection systems is pretty ridiculous in some cases. I only got the licensed Supreme Commander DVD after I found out there's an original english version tucked up in there, and that an "undocumented feature" of one of the patches was killing Starforce. :D
Ask them if their detection software only reacts to programs trying to change their games? If it responded to something diffrent, it may not quite be legal. Take it to microsoft, make a huge problem for them?
isn't it also illegal to be monitoring a persons computer without consent/legal grounds?
quote:
Originally posted by Ltheb:
<STRONG>Thats what I thought too. It says in the EULA that they will ban you if they catch you cheating, but make no mention of how they do this. Had they mentioned a memory scan in their EULA, you would have no argument; by hitting agree, you basically say 'Its OK with me.' By not mentioning one, then either A: They use some other method, which flagged you for an unrelated reason, or B: They use a questionably legal method of memory scanning.</STRONG>
Last time I checked the EULA wasn't the absolute last say on what a company can and cant do with their product, it's more legal information, they wouldnt provide such information in the EULA. But still the same, banning you for use of another product or whatever, is illegal, because they have no right to monitor your activities outside of anything steam-related. Ill try to dig up that old ass bill that says something along the lines of "Monitoring of a private citizen's personal computer without consent is illegal and punishable in the court of law."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECPA
[ December 12, 2007: Message edited by: Torak ]
quote:
Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>isn't it also illegal to be monitoring a persons computer without consent/legal grounds?</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Ltheb:
<STRONG>Thats what I thought too. It says in the EULA that they will ban you if they catch you cheating, but make no mention of how they do this.</STRONG>
Section 5 of the EULA that you agree to when you use Steam:
"Steam and the Steam Software may include functionality designed to identify software or hardware processes or functionality that may give a player an unfair competitive advantage when playing multiplayer versions of any Steam Software, other Valve products, or modifications thereof ("Cheats"). You agree that you will not create or assist third parties in any way to create Cheats. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly disable, circumvent, or otherwise interfere with the operation of software designed to prevent or report the use of Cheats. You acknowledge and agree that either Valve or any online multiplayer host may refuse to allow you to participate in certain online multiplayer games if you use Cheats in connection with Steam or the Steam Software. Further, you acknowledge and agree that an online multiplayer host may report your use of Cheats to Valve, and Valve may communicate your history of use of Cheats to other online multiplayer hosts for Valve products. Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so."
They don't have to give specifics of how it works, because that would only help cheaters. Seriously, if y'all would actually read the EULA instead of raging against the machine like a bunch of thirteen year olds, you'd see that Steam/Valve did nothing out of line, other than make a small mistake in this one admittedly suspicious case (running memory editing utilities while playing Counterstrike) that they'll probably rectify if dealt with in a civilized way.
[ December 12, 2007: Message edited by: Capntastic ]
quote:
Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>
They don't have to give specifics of how it works, because that would only help cheaters. Seriously, if y'all would actually read the EULA instead of raging against the machine like a bunch of thirteen year olds, you'd see that Steam/Valve did nothing out of line, other than make a small mistake in this one admittedly suspicious case (running memory editing utilities while playing Counterstrike) that they'll probably rectify if dealt with in a civilized way.[ December 12, 2007: Message edited by: Capntastic ]</STRONG>
The fact of the matter is that they were monitoring a completely unrelated (and private) part of his computer, which is illegal for anything outside of a court-ordered warrant. I've got no issue with a company protect it's interest within it's own rights, it when they break someone else's is that it's crossing the line.
Also, I ask you to refrain from calling me a "thirteen year old rage against the machine-er" as it's calling my knowledge of law juvenile, which it is not.
quote:
Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>Section 5 of the EULA that you agree to when you use Steam:
"...You acknowledge and agree that either Valve or any online multiplayer host may refuse to allow you to participate in certain online multiplayer games if you use Cheats in connection with Steam or the Steam Software..."
</STRONG>
DF memory hacking utilities have nothing to do with Steam or its software, thus they violated the EULA by banning you.
[ December 12, 2007: Message edited by: apache1990 ]
quote:
Originally posted by Torak:
[QB
The fact of the matter is that they were monitoring a completely unrelated (and private) part of his computer, which is illegal for anything outside of a court-ordered warrant. [/QB]
Unless you give consent, as per the EULA.
I'm not saying Steam is right in this particular case; they made a small mistake. But he was running suspicious software designed for cheating. Don't be obtuse.
[ December 13, 2007: Message edited by: Capntastic ]
BOOM HEADSHOT.
What interests me is the kinds of things a company can have their software do to/with your computer without informing you. Valve isn't necessarily some sort of criminal organization simply by having a stealth system memory scan; but the gray area it falls into doesn't seem well defined. Does this mean a company could scan your Hard Disk for programs they don't like (Maybe a competitor's programs as an example) and 'ban' you based on that? Some of this technology is so 'new' (relatively) that there may not be any laws at all governing things like this yet or perhaps no one thinks to look for these things and enforce the laws.
Whatever the case may be, Valve does not take kindly to memory editing programs, so care had best be taken if you use one.
quote:
Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>I'd rather have anti-Cheating tech that gives the occasional false positive [the kind with cheating programs running, albeit for a different game] rather than none at all.BOOM HEADSHOT.</STRONG>
What headshot? That's only an opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by apache1990:
<STRONG>What headshot? That's only an opinion.</STRONG>
Lighten up, it was a joke.
The bottom line I'm trying to make is that the opening post here says "Hey, be careful- Valve thinks DF memory hack tools are cheats!" and near everyone is replying with cries of war against a company that is trying to provide a quality service and made a tiny slip up that will probably rectified.
Anyway, what's this about them saying "We do not lift bans. VAC does not make mistakes?"
quote:
Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>a tiny slip up that will probably rectified.</STRONG>
Valve doesnt undo bans on cheating.
quote:
Originally posted by Erasmus Darwin:
<STRONG>According to the Wikipedia page for VAC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat ), they've lifted bans in the past that were caused by false positives.</STRONG>
Okay. It's a good thing he wasn't cheating then.
[ December 13, 2007: Message edited by: Capntastic ]
quote:
Originally posted by Zurai:
<STRONG>It's amusing how many people think they have the slightest clue what is or isn't legal regarding EULAs and what a software developer is and isn't allowed to do to protect their software.</STRONG>
How many people?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Daeloth:
<STRONG>Alright, I'm assuming that they only scan your memory, not your hard-drive, which is what you agreed to. It detected something that it recognized as a memory hacking tool (You didn't have cheat-o-matic running did you?) and banned you. I mean, as long as you can send them a link to the programs you feel may have produced the false positive, I see no reason for them to not lift the ban. Just make sure you are polite and give them all the information you can. If you were running some other memory editing utility, though, like o-matic... You're probably screwed.</STRONG>
Yeah, VAC scans your memory when you connect to a VAC secured server. Additionally, the theory is that VAC2 checks (somehow) for specific cheat programs running.
quote:
Additionally, the theory is that VAC2 checks (somehow) for specific cheat programs running.
I would imagine they use some sort of hash-code "dictionary" of known cheat programs... Which makes me wonder if he's certain that no other memory editing software was used.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Daeloth:
<STRONG>I would imagine they use some sort of hash-code "dictionary" of known cheat programs... Which makes me wonder if he's certain that no other memory editing software was used.</STRONG>
VAC2 does use Hash codes.
quote:
Originally posted by BeardlessDwarf:
<STRONG>VAC2 does use Hash codes.</STRONG>
Well, there we go. Send links to the tools that you may have been using, and they should be able to compare the hash codes of those tools to the one that flagged you for banning. I highly doubt that all VAC2 bans are permanent. Also, I again have to wonder, if hash-codes are use, its very unlikely that it gave a false positive on a DF utility, and leads me to believe something else was running, possibly without you knowing. I've heard of a "wall-hack" tool for Counter-strike that lets you pass through walls but only in observer mode, that lead to some bannings. You wouldn't happen to have been using that tool would you?
Edit: Actually, there's something on the WIKI about it(X-Spectate)--VAC Apparently they removed those bans and now it only kicks you from a server if you are running it, so nevermind.
[ December 14, 2007: Message edited by: Lord_Daeloth ]
It's silly how it is now. You buy it, bring it home.. "Oh by the way...."
As for STEAM, I won't play another valve game until they get rid of it.
quote:
Originally posted by DJ:
<STRONG>Call them on the phone, as it's much harder to brush off someone who's calling than someone who's just writing a mail. Explain the situation and politely ask to be unbanned. If they refuse, threaten them with bad publicity. If they still refuse, write to every damn gaming magazine and website in the world. You may not get your games back, but you'll get one hell of a revenge. They'll certainly lose more revenue than 200$.</STRONG>
Yes, blackmail is the answer.
quote:
Originally posted by Wiles:
<STRONG>I don't like EULA. If anything agreeing to something like that should be before you buy it.It's silly how it is now. You buy it, bring it home.. "Oh by the way...."</STRONG>
Especially since most (all?) stores won't let you return opened software... and where do you usually see the EULA? During install, of course.
(In general, not specific to Steam.)
[ December 14, 2007: Message edited by: Aargh ]
quote:
Originally posted by Wiles:
<STRONG>It's silly how it is now. You buy it, bring it home.. "Oh by the way...."</STRONG>
It does say on the back of the retail box that... well, why don't I just quote from the back of my Orange Box... Oh wait, it's in Finnish. Well it reads somewhere along the lines of "NOTE: This product is sold by the condition that you agree to the Steam Subscriber Agreement (SSA). You must activate this product on the Internet by registering it to a Steam account and agreeing to the SSA. You can read the SSA before buying this product at www.steampowered.com/agreement. If you do not agree to the conditions of the SSA, you should return this game to the retailer unopened as their return policy allows."
It sounds like the original poster can't say for sure that a DF utility was the problem. All those DF utilities open and close immediately, I don't know how you could have had one running that you forgot about.
Until we answer this everything else is moot.
Please, do some cursory research into the available utilities before dismissing all possibilities as impossible.
I'll certainly make sure I close everything before even running Steam, now. I don't want to lose Gmod and Portal.
quote:
Originally posted by Trukkle:
<STRONG>Please, do some cursory research into the available utilities before dismissing all possibilities as impossible.</STRONG>
Please, do some cursory reading into what the poster you're responding to said before dismissing his statement as impossible.
In other words, he never said it was impossible. He asked whether the OP was sure it was a DF utility and brought up a point about the majority of memory-accessing utilities being self-exiting.
quote:
Originally posted by Trukkle:
<STRONG>Dwarf foreman does not open and close immediately, and is a memory editor. </STRONG>
I didn't realize this. So does the original thread-starter know for sure that he had Dwarf Foreman open while he was trying to play on Steam?
Steam is always on on my computer, it pops up automatically. But, I've used DF utilities without a problem, so do I have to be playing a game over steam while Dwarf Foreman remains open for trouble?
quote:
Originally posted by Zurai:
<STRONG>Please, do some cursory reading into what the poster you're responding to said before dismissing his statement as impossible.</STRONG>
I'd seen the "They do their job and close, are you sure?" gist twice in the thread and want to make sure people, and the OP, reaslise that there are some now that remain open, and there have been in the past (Depending on how long ago VAC noticed the 'cheating')
I wasn't flaming anyone in particular, just firmly stating a fact and stopping people from dismissing this out of hand.
OP:Refer VAC/Valve to dwarf foreman, if you were using it.
I suspect that VAC detected either the program in memory, or that something was trying to actively read or alter the memory used by counterstrike.
I am curious if "DF Utilities" is the name of the program he was running, or if he was running random DF editing programs, and if thats the case, posting their names here would be infinitely more helpful since many people who are very familiar with those programs could likely tell you which most likely caused the problem, and would let people know to be careful when using the said program.
You have to go through windows to get access to DF's memory.
So DF utilities are limited, and from teleport.exe's source, it searches by window name.
Either steam may be doing something illegal and scanning your whole computer without permission, they hid a thing that says that by installing, they can, or you actually cheated, or, most likely, your brother's pet ferret did it.
quote:
Originally posted by briktal:
<STRONG>Yes, blackmail is the answer.</STRONG>
No, a boycott is.
Blackmail would be you threatening to lie about them doing that to you and saying that if they don't give you money or games for nothing you'll spread that rumour.
Referring to a boycott attempt as blackmail is ridiculous.
quote:
Originally posted by RubberDuckofDoom:
<STRONG>No, a boycott is.
Blackmail would be you threatening to lie about them doing that to you and saying that if they don't give you money or games for nothing you'll spread that rumour.
Referring to a boycott attempt as blackmail is ridiculous.</STRONG>
The suggestion was to say "Unban me or I will trash your name wherever I can," not "Unban me or I won't buy anything else from you."
Additionally, with blackmail, the threat generally would be something you could otherwise legally do ("Give me $5000, Mayor, or I'll tell them about that embarassing thing you did 5 years ago"). Otherwise it'd be extortion ("Give me $5000, Mayor, or I'll break your legs and burn your house down").
Also, even though it is clearly illegal (remember the Sony Root Kit?)companies will install software on your computer to monitor what you are doing without your knowing consent. Not too long ago Microsoft did this with their security validation tool, which is capable of tracking your mouse movementsand called it a security update. Soon, all software will be spyware, constantly reporting what you do with it to whoever owns the copyright, in an attempt to enhance your customer experience . Satellite companies are capable of monitoring what you watch, and so are digital cable companies. Have you noticed how a lot more channels have commercials airing at the same time?
Once, (in the US that is) privacy was considered a right. Things like keeping track of what you purchase would have been considered illegal. Now, many online sites do just that, and hide the fact within an obtusely written EULA. Which is a legal and binding contract, not an outline. From what I have read, Valve and most other companies need to update their EULAs because most have a certain little clause in them that states that the EULA may be changed at any time at the companies discretion without notification. You could definitely get Valve into legal trouble because they do not explicitly dictate the monitoring methods used to detect cheating, which means that they could (note the could, I am not saying that they are) record your ISP logins and your windows account information, heck they could keep track of anything that they wish and say that its all an attempt to ensure that you aren't cheating. You argue against it, and they point out that you agreed to it, even if the EULA had changed since you had "signed it."
If the EULA wasn't a legal and binding contract, then any attempt to enforce it (especially the disabling of the software, or the monitoring of your use of it)would in fact be illegal and a violation of your privacy rights (in the US.)
I believe that in Holland (or was it Denmark) that Microsoft was fined and had to recall thousands of copies of vista because of the DRMs present in the version of Media Player that violated that nations privacy laws.
My point, and the on topic point, is that these companies have no actual right to take away access that you paid for without giving at least some proof of the incident, and a reply other than VAC2 does not make mistakes. That's what a certain religious entity said about Galileo, and we all know how that turned out.
quote:
Originally posted by Anfold:
<STRONG>The problem that I have with these anti-hack utilities is that you can be told that "We caught you cheating." And that's it. You can't argue back, you can't even ask for the specific case report. It's like if the police busted down your front door and took you to jail because one of them didn't like the way that you looked, and thought that it was suspicious.Also, even though it is clearly illegal (remember the Sony Root Kit?)companies will install software on your computer to monitor what you are doing without your knowing consent. Not too long ago Microsoft did this with their security validation tool, which is capable of tracking your mouse movementsand called it a security update. Soon, all software will be spyware, constantly reporting what you do with it to whoever owns the copyright, in an attempt to enhance your customer experience . Satellite companies are capable of monitoring what you watch, and so are digital cable companies. Have you noticed how a lot more channels have commercials airing at the same time?
Once, (in the US that is) privacy was considered a right. Things like keeping track of what you purchase would have been considered illegal. Now, many online sites do just that, and hide the fact within an obtusely written EULA. Which is a legal and binding contract, not an outline. From what I have read, Valve and most other companies need to update their EULAs because most have a certain little clause in them that states that the EULA may be changed at any time at the companies discretion without notification. You could definitely get Valve into legal trouble because they do not explicitly dictate the monitoring methods used to detect cheating, which means that they could (note the could, I am not saying that they are) record your ISP logins and your windows account information, heck they could keep track of anything that they wish and say that its all an attempt to ensure that you aren't cheating. You argue against it, and they point out that you agreed to it, even if the EULA had changed since you had "signed it."
If the EULA wasn't a legal and binding contract, then any attempt to enforce it (especially the disabling of the software, or the monitoring of your use of it)would in fact be illegal and a violation of your privacy rights (in the US.)
I believe that in Holland (or was it Denmark) that Microsoft was fined and had to recall thousands of copies of vista because of the DRMs present in the version of Media Player that violated that nations privacy laws.
My point, and the on topic point, is that these companies have no actual right to take away access that you paid for without giving at least some proof of the incident, and a reply other than VAC2 does not make mistakes. That's what a certain religious entity said about Galileo, and we all know how that turned out.</STRONG>
Try to make sure M$ doesn't overcharge you for TSR filled betas either.
I really hate humans.
quote:
I really hate humans.[/QB]
Finnaly someone who agrees with me, when the reckoning comes I shall spare you.
quote:
Originally posted by thatguyyaknow:
<STRONG>
Finnaly someone who agrees with me, when the reckoning comes I shall spare you.</STRONG>
Had you not insulted me I also would have been glad for some agreement.
[/of topic]
quote:
Originally posted by Ltheb:
<STRONG>
Does this mean a company could scan your Hard Disk for programs they don't like </STRONG>
Its a fact that there were "virus scans" and other "cleaning utilities" that were designed to disable a competitors software. Unsurprisingly, this was found out and has since been made illegal. Do a bit of research about computer privacy laws and ethics, you will be surprised at what certain (mostly dead) companies thought they could get away with.
Recent example: Starforce (an incredibly buggy, possibly CD-damaging, but effective copy protection software) ran hidden software that detected the use of CD emulators like Alchohol 120, Damian Tools and Virtual drive. All of which are legal as long as you own the original disk. Just like playing a SNES rom is legal as long as you have the original cartridge. I think that the site Boycot-Starforce may still be active, though I haven't checked in a while. The backlash from disabling these perfectly legal softwares (which may be used in an illegal way, Just like P2P) caused the company to put out a removal tool for their originally uninstallable software.
And you know what's the best part about all this copy protection going on? Games that are sold without copy protection tend to outsell the competitors, as playing without the original media in the drive tends to reduce the required resources needed by a drastic amount. Especially since all the information is on your hard drive anyway.
Their are two competing factions out on their today in the world of computers, those who want absolute freedom to do what they want with their computers (hackers, smart-users, anybody who uses UNIX) and those who want to protect their profits and copyrights. I have no problem with either side, and I happen to support valve 100%, I just bought two copies of the Orange box, one as a gift and one for myself. Both on the 360, so don;t think that I am some sort of digital anarchist, but i think that it is important that people know about these things, kind of like I thimk that its important to know your rights (next time a cop wants to search your vehicle, tell him no. When they ask about where you're going, what you're doing out this late etc. etc. go ahead and plead the 5th. If they have no probable cause and you get arrested, chances are you can sue them.)
Its important for the people with power to protect their rights and property, but that is no reason for you to lie down and let them toll right over your rights and privileges.
*note: check your local constitution/bill of rights if not in the US. I don't want to get some poor Chinese kid killed.
[/rant] (I hope)
Edited for a bit of redundency
[ December 18, 2007: Message edited by: Anfold ]
quote:
Originally posted by Anfold:
<STRONG>All of which are legal as long as you own the original disk. Just like playing a SNES rom is legal as long as you have the original cartridge.</STRONG>
A common misconception, this claim is not true. When you buy a software product you only licence it and more often than not the licence prohibits you from making any copies, especially as is the case with console cartridges. Check Nintendo's site, they have an official stance on that.
There may be some laws that say you can make private backup copies, I don't know much about those though.
The point you should've been making is that there's nothing illegal about image mounting software by themselves. They just mount images.
The world of copyright law is anything but clear though, especially with international laws being as about as useful as a pointy stick in a gun fight. If you think that it might, possibly could be illegal, don't do it. In fact, even if you think that it is perfectly legal, unless you have a lawyer watching your back saying, yep its okay. Don't steal if you can help it, but I know for a fact that many people will emulate games that they don't own simply because they are impossible to find through any other means. I don't support theft by any means, but I also want people to stop lying down and doing what they're told simply because the other guy has more money than you.
quote:
Originally posted by Anfold:
<STRONG>Regardless of Nintendo's official policy, the licensing has run out on most SNES, NES, and N64 games have since run out, and Nintendo has no right to say anything about them.</STRONG>
Licenses don't "run out" just like that, copyrights take decades to expire in most countries. The NES is only ~20 years old.
Also, according to Wikipedia, "in the U.S. it has been illegal since 1983 for a user to create their own backups of video game ROMs onto other cartridges" because "ROM media was not subject to the same volatility as magnetic media (for which the law was created)"
EDIT: I'm going to see if I can find some of the cases I know about, but looking for them is going to take a while. Most likely the cases were overturned into todays laws, and I am running on bad information. I think this discussion should be moved to another thread now, as it is off topic.
[ December 18, 2007: Message edited by: Anfold ]
quote:
Originally posted by Anfold:
<STRONG>Copyrights (trademarks?) have to be renewed, the current system of 80 years after the death of the holder does not apply to companies. Ol' Mickey is the copyright of Walt Disney the man, not the corporation.
[ December 18, 2007: Message edited by: Anfold ]</STRONG>
A copyright and a trademark are very different things. Differences here. A copyright also CANNOT BE RENEWED... that would invalidate their entire purpose. As it stands, their purpose is effectively invalidated anyway because corporations can lobby to extend copyrights on a whim. If you want proof of this, just do some reading on Disney and how they are helping to break copyright law.
As for the Steam argument... I don't see why people are up in arms about the program scanning your computer for cheats. The argument sounds similar to the debate about being asked for your receipt leaving a SAM's club. People don't like that invasion of privacy, but by joining the club you agree to those terms, so there's nothing you can do about it.
quote:
Originally posted by DJ:
<STRONG>Frankly, I see nothing wrong with the blackmail I proposed. Steam has effectively stolen back lawfully purchased goods, and this "blackmail" is giving the company chance to correct their mistake without ill consequences. It's the same thing as having someone break into your house and steal stuff and giving them the chance to return it without consequences. Most people would alert the police, so this move is being nice to the thief. Similarly, most people should immediately ruin a company's PR if they get screwed by it. If nobody did that, we'd all live in a world of getting constantly screwed.</STRONG>
First, you can still play the games, just not online.
Second, it isn't the "bad publicity" thing, it's the THREAT to do so if certain demands aren't met.
[ December 19, 2007: Message edited by: DJ ]
quote:
Originally posted by briktal:
<STRONG>First, you can still play the games, just not online.</STRONG>
Wrong again. The only thing a VAC ban prohibits you from doing is playing on VAC-enabled servers. You can play on servers that have VAC disabled.
[ December 19, 2007: Message edited by: Worldwaker ]
quote:
Originally posted by Worldwaker:
<STRONG>My server has Vac disabled,[ December 19, 2007: Message edited by: Worldwaker ]</STRONG>
That is the reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>That is the reason.</STRONG>
Actually, you'd be surprised how many hackers/cheaters there are that have "Vac2 Proof hacks"
If vac could not see your chats, could it see them while they were running?