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[Meph]

Here it is:

What if books are used as buildmats to build a library. You only ever need ONE of each book, they dont get used up, they dont need to be hauled around, stockpiled and so on. Books like:
"Write 'The Metallurgy of adv. Metals III' (Smithing)"
"Write 'Cheese - An Anthology' (Farming)"
"Write 'The Brain - Do we really need it?' (Mind&Body)"
"Write 'Stick them with the pointy end' (Warfare)"
"Write 'What is FUN - A Contemporary Classic' (Philosophy)"

Each of the 5 library sections need 10 books that fit, so the 10 books that have (Warfare) are needed for the Library of Warfare. This means the library workshop itself takes a lot longer to build.

Now comes the catch:
Training is free.
Training gives instant skills. Do the reaction, instantly get the skill level you want.
Warfare trains any of the related skills to lvl4
Philosophy trains any of the related skills  to lvl4
Crafting trains any of the related skills  to lvl6
Smithing trains any of the related skills  to lvl6
Farming trains any of the related skills  to lvl6
Mind & Body trains any of the related skills  to lvl8

So you write 10 books, outfit a library, and from that point on any dwarf can come by, read a book (the time this takes I can control, be it 1 day or 10 ingame days) and after that he has learned the collective knowledge of your dwarves on that matter. But you can only get to the levels I posted above. Super fast, but limited in range. This means your useless migrants get useful, but your already good crafters dont get maxed out, because a master-smith cant learn from reading a book.

There could still be rare masterpiece books that train to lvl10, or I make them even rarer and train to lvl 15.

I personally think that this would be a vast improvement over the current system, because its a lot easier to use, makes more sense from a logical point of view, gets rid of notebooks, and dwarves can only learn so far from theoretical knowledge before they have to continue learning a skill the old fashioned way.

The normal, xp/reaction related skill training I can keep, like the Tavern or the Apothecary. I could even add some simple ones here and there, like combat drills in the Garrison.

[Billy Jack]

I like it.  Though I would request that the reader stopping by would require a notebook, thereby continuing a need for paper and ink.  Make notebook at Scriptorium.

[Meph]

Yeah, maybe 1 item... I thought I put ink+quill into the workshop itself. Or take "notebook+ink+quill" to make one "study set" or something silly... that way the studiying dwarf only has to carry one items to the library.

Like I said, this is all brainstorming, but my test worked well.

[Srial]

I like the idea.   After training up my initial dwarves mostly what I would want a library for is to get new dwarves up to speed.  Sending a 0 skill legionnaire migrant in full steel armor against a siege just ends up with a pile of steel armor to collect.   This would let me get them to a decent baseline, but without the somewhat overpowered nature of having him be a full legendary warrior in a month.

[Repseki]

Personally I would probably use it for smiths more than any type of military training. With small squads you can get Legendary dwarves pretty fast just by having them spar, even faster if they are in one of the military guilds.

[Meph]

You think its balanced? After you have written 50 books, you can make every dwarf in the fort at least 4-6 levels proficient in all skills... for free, or almost free.

I only know that the current library system is not that much liked by players, because of its complexity and because you cant see an instant reward. Just like some people dont like a gym, just because there is no change after 2 weeks.

[Srial]

I think your new proposal fits more in line with your idea of adding research.  What this does is say "Our fort has advanced to a level of research and understanding of X this skill.  No dwarf will ever be below level X again because we've learned and widely adopted techniques that allow us to get past the basic mistakes people make in new professions."   

I suppose if you wanted to add in a balance you might say a book for this library could only be written by someone over a certain skill level.  Say only a stonecrafter over level 8 or 10 could make the book that gets everyone to level 6.

The old system was a bear to learn, but once you did and you knew what to embark with, what to order from caravans and what to make it was pretty easy to go way overboard pretty quickly, in my opinion. 

[Nevets_]

I like the idea of the library system having a skill cap, but I think the instant reaction time makes the system too easy.  Some time should be required so that you are at a disadvantage if you spend all your time reading and none of it mining/smithing/trapgineering.  And I had an idea:

What if you make it a two tiered system:
Dwarves write 'Manual of [Skillname]' in the scriptorium, these are basic instruction guides and are used as build mats for the Library workshop.
The 'Write a Manual of [Skillname]' reaction's speed is skill based so an experience Mason would produce a 'Manual of Stonemasonry' faster than a novice.
There is a (very) small chance that the dwarf will write a 'Critique of [Skillname]' in addition to the 'Manual of [Skillname]'.  These would be non-consumed reagents for a more advance skill training reaction.
The basic 'Library' workshop trains any skill to level 4 and requires one Manual of each profession as a build mat.  To make training non-free each training reaction would require 1 base material relevant to the skill to practice on, so training in carpentry would consume a wood log, weaponsmithing would consume a metal bar, training in a non-crafting skill would take extra time.
The advanced 'Hall of Knowledge' workshop trains a specific skill to level 8 and each reaction requires a Critique which is not consumed.

So the idea would be to use already trained dwarves to write your Manuals if you can so it takes less time, once you have a well trained dwarf you can try to have him write a Critique by using him to make alot of Manuals quickly and hope one drops.  The beneficial side effect to this would be spare Manuals that could be used to build extra Library workshops so more dwarves could train at once (unless you still make the training reaction instant).

[Varyag]

Excellent idea as long as the skills max out at a lower skill level to stay realistic. I don't want to see every dwarf come out an expert at crafting or whatever just by reading, almost all the skills in df actually requires some degree of practical experience in the real world.

Also, definitely should require ink, quills and notebooks as reagents, those 3 reagents are easy enough to make to keep the system balanced.

Those book titles are hilarious by the way.

because you cant see an instant reward. Just like some people dont like a gym, just because there is no change after 2 weeks.

I spent three weeks in the gym and levelled from dabbling to +5 legendary [raw level: 217] misc object user.

[Meph]

I suppose if you wanted to add in a balance you might say a book for this library could only be written by someone over a certain skill level.

  Cant do this.

I can do the "use mason skill for faster masonry book", but I have 100 skills. Thats 100 books, and 100 workers that the player has to micromanage. I rather have "only" 60 books (10 per library section), all written by the Scribe. Otherwise I wouldnt need the profession.

I can slow down the learning reaction which adds the skill level by using a social skill, like Student. Fits well enough. I dont want to give it 3 separate reagents, like notebook, quill, ink... because we are almost back to what we have now. Maybe one... maybe none. I dont know yet.

I like the idea of a basic training and a rare good training, which I proposed in the first post. Masterpiece books train to a higher skill and are (most likely) used up. I would make a reaction "work on a masterpiece", which has a low chance to produce a masterpiece on a random skill. This way people cant farm the same skill all the time.

I wont make a basic and advanced library building, because currently there are 5 already. 6 with this new idea. Two make two versions of each means 12 buildings... I can of course combine the reactions into 1 large library, but I dont know why you would need the 100 (or 60) books as buildmats for this... Let me explain better: If I have library sections, a fortress can study and learn warfare, because thats what the fort is based on. Another player, in another fort, would study farming... or philosophy to raise social stats, because of too many tantrums. Its more verstatile then having one building, which needs a ton of books to build, can do everything, but only very, very late.  I hope I explained that somehow right, its late here.

[SabbyKat]

Short Response: I like the general principle of it, so long as the 'times to train' are comparable (so not instant!). It also makes the books (building materials) needed, more mid-game (which is where it would be valuable and more balanced).

Long Response: Masterpiece books should be creatable as you said with lower success rates on the reaction, but I also think the masterpiece made, should be fairly random. Aka making a masterpiece of warfare, would give exp to only a specific skill (axes, spears, armor use, shield use, yada yada) rather than be selectable.

Though, you could go two ways with the above. One where you can make 'specific' books for a specific skill (masterpiece wise), but have a very low success (like 2-5%), or instead lean to a 'random masterpiece' (like I stated) with 15-25% success. Controlled skill output vs random - most skill books would be useful though, even if random and they counted exp up to 15+5 - I wouldn't mind giving my level 16 mason a nice +1000 exp boost from a masterpiece for it, if it took me 2 seconds (figuratively) to run down and read it.

As for reagents, for your basic '+4-8 max' reactions - I think nothing should be needed, but as stated, have the time be balanced vs gain.

For masterwork content, really up to you, and how you do it. But yes. I find the current system a MASSIVE pain in the fanny, with too many steps/items to use. I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 reagents - if kept sensible in acquiring them.

Just my 10 cents!

[Panopticon]

I like it, by later in the all this does is make your peasants relatively useful and help you recover from a disaster that kills your skilled dwarfs, early game it's moot as it will take a bit to make the required books anyway.

[Meph]

Yeah, I just wanted to know what the people think about it. I like a mid-game library section that adds a basic-skill level to one group of skills... till you got all library sections (4 + 1 new one + 1 philosophers garden, which could be the sixth, but I like the design of it) it will be late game.

The masterpieces are just to keep it interesting after you finished the libraries, because after that the labor of "writing/scribe" would be useless, you only need the libraries once... and you have a high-level scribe who just wrote 60 books to make that happen... would be a shame to just have him sit around, doing nothing

I thought about "Work on a Masterpiece", which takes literally forever, and has a low (1-2%) chance of success... so your scribe is more or less sitting there all day, just like your bookkeeper in the beginning, and all he does is writing, so that you might get a masterpiece some day half a year later Which is preserved and can train anyone up to lvl10 instantly, in that one skill.

[FengYun]

Sounds like a very good idea. Need to think on the balance issues though.

Maybe library buildings can be split into book stands (2 books to build, max lvl 2, limited number of skills to train) and big libraries (10 books, max lvl 6, any skill from the branch).

[Meph]

I cant make that many buildings.. book stand, 2 books, from 100 skills.. thats 50 workshops. Currently I have Scriptorium to write, 5 library sections and the philosophers garden, which is just another library section that looks differently. I might change it to "Library of Philosophy" or whatever comes closest to social-skill learning. 

I can do library to lvl5, masterpiece book gives lvl10, rest you have to do yourself.