Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Gameplay Questions => Topic started by: notalbanian on July 26, 2011, 02:58:16 pm
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I started a fortress next to a volcano so I wouldn't have to use coal/charcoal for my metal industry. It's up to 93 dwarves now, and I'm digging out a whole Z-level for more comfortable living/working quarters. I want to put magma smelters/forges/etc. on that level, but I'm not sure how to safely get magma out of a volcano so it can be used for those. All the times I've done that so far have killed the miner (or more accurately, potash maker with a pick) and/or almost flooded part of the fortress, and couldn't be expanded when I needed more magma for additional furnaces. Is there a way to get magma out of a volcano that doesn't kill the miner or flood anything that I don't want to be flooded, and can be expanded later?
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I started a fortress next to a volcano so I wouldn't have to use coal/charcoal for my metal industry. It's up to 93 dwarves now, and I'm digging out a whole Z-level for more comfortable living/working quarters. I want to put magma smelters/forges/etc. on that level, but I'm not sure how to safely get magma out of a volcano so it can be used for those. All the times I've done that so far have killed the miner (or more accurately, potash maker with a pick) and/or almost flooded part of the fortress, and couldn't be expanded when I needed more magma for additional furnaces. Is there a way to get magma out of a volcano that doesn't kill the miner or flood anything that I don't want to be flooded, and can be expanded later?
Use "smooth stone" and then "carve fortifications" instead of punching a hole with a pick. The time it takes for the magma to move through the rock is (usually) enough for an unencumbered dwarf to leg it.
Eg:
Magma Reservoir left, Volcano right, X = wall, - = Floor, M = Armok's Holy Blood. Designate the wall in the middle for smoothing, then for having a fortification carved.
XXXXXXX
-----XM
XXXXXXXOne thing to be wary of is how many tile of magma are adjacent to the smoothed/carved tile. Note also that dwarves can go (and have gone) to sleep in magma pipes. Make sure they have some other job or task, and that they won't choose to idle or lay down to sleep once their job is done. Lastly, make sure your magma reservoir is magma-proof. Even if your dwarf flees, and runs up a set of stairs, if the only floodgate/door holding it back is not magma proof, the magma is getting out.
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say i floor over the crater of the volcano.... can i then punch out holes in the floor and build magma workshops?
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yes, flooring the crater and punching through works, but leaves your dwarves either A.) outside exposed on the face of the volcano or B.) even if you build around the crater for safety, still probably many many x-levels from the rest of the fort.
Magma is not pressurized. punching a hole in the side of the volcano's magma pipe won't cause it to all ooze out of your floor and flood your fortress from below. without being pumped, magma will never rise a z-level, only seep downwards. its much more effective, generally, to build an underground magma reservoir nearer your main fortress levels, and then build the magma forges and smelters above the reservoir, inside, rather than up on top of the crater.
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yes, flooring the crater and punching through works, but leaves your dwarves either A.) outside exposed on the face of the volcano or B.) even if you build around the crater for safety, still probably many many x-levels from the rest of the fort.
Magma is not pressurized. punching a hole in the side of the volcano's magma pipe won't cause it to all ooze out of your floor and flood your fortress from below. without being pumped, magma will never rise a z-level, only seep downwards. its much more effective, generally, to build an underground magma reservoir nearer your main fortress levels, and then build the magma forges and smelters above the reservoir, inside, rather than up on top of the crater.
no problem at all, the crater is actually on the side of a larger mountain. i'm going to floor over the entire workshop area from above and wall it off.
i'm also not really digging down, but building up.
these are not dwarves, but goblins, and i'm building them a tower.
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One thing to watch out for if you build on top of the volcano is that the magma level can drop if you later puncture the tube or drain any for other things, and will only slowly refill. If you build on top, make sure that you don't accidentally depower your smelters/forges later from magma drain.
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One thing to watch out for if you build on top of the volcano is that the magma level can drop if you later puncture the tube or drain any for other things, and will only slowly refill. If you build on top, make sure that you don't accidentally depower your smelters/forges later from magma drain.
if i were to channel out a moat and fill it with lava, from the top, would the rate of refill balance out the fill of the moat?
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if i were to channel out a moat and fill it with lava, from the top, would the rate of refill balance out the fill of the moat?
Probably not. The drain of the moat filling will likely eclipse the refill of the volcano by a large margin, and if your workshops are on the top level, they will lose magma and switch off.
When I build my magma forge area, I excavate a chamber on level -1 (to hold the magma), and a chamber on level 0 (to hold the workshops). Then I pump the reservoir full, then puncture the floor once pumping stops. You never need to worry about magma dropping mid-mood this way. (You can ruin a mood and lose a dwarf if magma workshops de-power due to magma loss!)
When I create the reservoir, I'm pumping magma out of the volcano into a fixed reservoir. Three bags of sand, three logs = Magma Safe Pump for 12 Embark points. (...and only three points, if you can cut wood on site to make charcoal.) The input tile of the pump has a ramp up to the level of the pump, and is directly adjacent to the magma-tube wall. Dwarf on level -1 smooths/carves, then walks immediately up the ramp and out of danger. A magma safe grate is placed over the ramp (keeps dodgers out of the lava, and magma critters out of the fort, magma doesn't flood up unless pumped), and the pump is manually operated to fill the reservoir from there.
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I started a fortress next to a volcano so I wouldn't have to use coal/charcoal for my metal industry. It's up to 93 dwarves now, and I'm digging out a whole Z-level for more comfortable living/working quarters. I want to put magma smelters/forges/etc. on that level, but I'm not sure how to safely get magma out of a volcano so it can be used for those. All the times I've done that so far have killed the miner (or more accurately, potash maker with a pick) and/or almost flooded part of the fortress, and couldn't be expanded when I needed more magma for additional furnaces. Is there a way to get magma out of a volcano that doesn't kill the miner or flood anything that I don't want to be flooded, and can be expanded later?
Use "smooth stone" and then "carve fortifications" instead of punching a hole with a pick. The time it takes for the magma to move through the rock is (usually) enough for an unencumbered dwarf to leg it.
Eg:
Magma Reservoir left, Volcano right, X = wall, - = Floor, M = Armok's Holy Blood. Designate the wall in the middle for smoothing, then for having a fortification carved.
XXXXXXX
-----XM
XXXXXXXOne thing to be wary of is how many tile of magma are adjacent to the smoothed/carved tile. Note also that dwarves can go (and have gone) to sleep in magma pipes. Make sure they have some other job or task, and that they won't choose to idle or lay down to sleep once their job is done. Lastly, make sure your magma reservoir is magma-proof. Even if your dwarf flees, and runs up a set of stairs, if the only floodgate/door holding it back is not magma proof, the magma is getting out.
Dwarves are really bad at pulling levers, though. I get the feeling the floodgate will close too early and trap the miner, or close too late and flood that level of the fortress.
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Absolutely, they are. I over-complicate things and always use a flood gate and a door.
WWWWWWW
---DXWM
WWWWWWW
The flood gate (X) is installed and hooked up to a lever elsewhere. It is lowered by the lever to provide access to the wall (W) that will get fortifications carved into it. The dwarf doing that work will access the wall by passing through the door (D) which is not linked to a lever. After the job is done the dwarf will retreat through the door which will close behind the dwarf and hold the magma at bay. Raising the flood gate will destroy the magma on that tile. The door can be safely removed, and when ready the flood gate can be lowered again to let the magma flow.
All the other caveats about using magma-safe materials and having another job for the dwarf to do immediately after the fortifications are carved apply.
Make sure you have a way to drain your magma pipe, either into a spillway or if you don't mind the question of where it all goes, out through the side.
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Try stacking up pumps to draw over the top, and build your forges up there.
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if i were to channel out a moat and fill it with lava, from the top, would the rate of refill balance out the fill of the moat?
Probably not. The drain of the moat filling will likely eclipse the refill of the volcano by a large margin, and if your workshops are on the top level, they will lose magma and switch off.
When I build my magma forge area, I excavate a chamber on level -1 (to hold the magma), and a chamber on level 0 (to hold the workshops). Then I pump the reservoir full, then puncture the floor once pumping stops. You never need to worry about magma dropping mid-mood this way. (You can ruin a mood and lose a dwarf if magma workshops de-power due to magma loss!)
When I create the reservoir, I'm pumping magma out of the volcano into a fixed reservoir. Three bags of sand, three logs = Magma Safe Pump for 12 Embark points. (...and only three points, if you can cut wood on site to make charcoal.) The input tile of the pump has a ramp up to the level of the pump, and is directly adjacent to the magma-tube wall. Dwarf on level -1 smooths/carves, then walks immediately up the ramp and out of danger. A magma safe grate is placed over the ramp (keeps dodgers out of the lava, and magma critters out of the fort, magma doesn't flood up unless pumped), and the pump is manually operated to fill the reservoir from there.
i think i get the idea, but i have another question. a murky pool was generated right on the lip of my volcano. so much so that it's craterward side collapsed immediately on embark, and the water spilled into the crater, creating a bit of obsidian. not an amazing amount, perhaps slightly less than 1/16th of the total crater area. now, if i remember what i've read, 1 tile water + 1 tile magma = 1 tile of obsidian wall, right? so, if i were to dig it from the side (or channel down from the top?) i would be left with 1 tile obsidian floor, correct? and if i leave the border tiles intact (including those pesky corner tiles) i will have a little room inside the top z of lava, right?
taking the idea a step further, i could obsidianize the top of the crater, and piece by piece remove floor tiles and use pit/ponds to then obsidianize the level below and then channel down. then i could refloor each z level, leafinf a hole in the middle, surrounded by wall, and a ceiling on the top level i want to actually inhabit (but still under at least 1 z from the top of the tube) and then, through floodgates, open up that hollow middle bit to allow the lava to restore itself to the top of the crater, submerging all my rooms i've built.
then, as the moat draws from the top z, my magma workshops on my lowest in-crater floor would never have to worry about power.
or am i missing something glaring?
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Use "smooth stone" and then "carve fortifications" instead of punching a hole with a pick. The time it takes for the magma to move through the rock is (usually) enough for an unencumbered dwarf to leg it.
Eg:
Magma Reservoir left, Volcano right, X = wall, - = Floor, M = Armok's Holy Blood. Designate the wall in the middle for smoothing, then for having a fortification carved.
XXXXXXX
-----XM
XXXXXXX
better variation ... build a fortification with 1 tile of solid rock between it and the magma .. then clear the area and channel the one tile of rock from above ... the action method of smoothing and carving is very unreliable and often leads to fatalities ^^
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I find that carving a channel, but leaving the last tile in place until I'm ready with a Magma-safe flood gate and mechanisms, to shut it off when I need to.
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The simplest way to safely break the magma wall is to dig a "spillway" *below* the point where you're breaching the volcano wall -- basically a little channel that the first rush of magma can spill into so your dwarf has time to get away. The simplest way is like this:
....x#~~~~
####x#~~~~
#...x#~~~~
######~~~~
Seen from the side, where X is an up/down stair. Breach the wall at the top of the stair, let the magma flow down, your miner will get away safely. Also helps to use a legendary miner since they dig faster.
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the action method of smoothing and carving is very unreliable and often leads to fatalities ^^
I've never (yet) had a fatality in a case where I'm breaching magma via smoothing and carving where there are not multiple magma tiles trying to flow in at once (# of adjacent magma tiles < 2). I have had attempts at smoothing and carving where many (sometimes as many as 5 tiles) magma tiles attempted to flow in, and the hauler would sometimes get burned this way (presumably due to large volumes of adjacent magma trying to occupy too little space).
Also, I use haulers, not miners, so (at worst) I'm wasting one migrant with no meaningful skills!
I'm not sure I follow how your method would work with a volcano breach made below the top level of magma, as the spot above your channel will also be a wall that's holding back magma, and you can't dig down AND diagonally from above, AFAIK. Could you explain how that method would work for a making a hole two or three levels below the magma surface with a volcano that has the standard 1-tile thick obsidian walls?
The easiest reliable method I've found in my experiments is simply not to punch a hole where there's lots of adjacent magma trying to occupy the same space. If I use an 'outside corner' that has only one tile of magma adjacent, the reduced flow is slow enough that the hauler should escape reliably.
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if i were to channel out a moat and fill it with lava, from the top, would the rate of refill balance out the fill of the moat?
Probably not. The drain of the moat filling will likely eclipse the refill of the volcano by a large margin, and if your workshops are on the top level, they will lose magma and switch off.
When I build my magma forge area, I excavate a chamber on level -1 (to hold the magma), and a chamber on level 0 (to hold the workshops). Then I pump the reservoir full, then puncture the floor once pumping stops. You never need to worry about magma dropping mid-mood this way. (You can ruin a mood and lose a dwarf if magma workshops de-power due to magma loss!)
When I create the reservoir, I'm pumping magma out of the volcano into a fixed reservoir. Three bags of sand, three logs = Magma Safe Pump for 12 Embark points. (...and only three points, if you can cut wood on site to make charcoal.) The input tile of the pump has a ramp up to the level of the pump, and is directly adjacent to the magma-tube wall. Dwarf on level -1 smooths/carves, then walks immediately up the ramp and out of danger. A magma safe grate is placed over the ramp (keeps dodgers out of the lava, and magma critters out of the fort, magma doesn't flood up unless pumped), and the pump is manually operated to fill the reservoir from there.
i think i get the idea, but i have another question. a murky pool was generated right on the lip of my volcano. so much so that it's craterward side collapsed immediately on embark, and the water spilled into the crater, creating a bit of obsidian. not an amazing amount, perhaps slightly less than 1/16th of the total crater area. now, if i remember what i've read, 1 tile water + 1 tile magma = 1 tile of obsidian wall, right? so, if i were to dig it from the side (or channel down from the top?) i would be left with 1 tile obsidian floor, correct? and if i leave the border tiles intact (including those pesky corner tiles) i will have a little room inside the top z of lava, right?
taking the idea a step further, i could obsidianize the top of the crater, and piece by piece remove floor tiles and use pit/ponds to then obsidianize the level below and then channel down. then i could refloor each z level, leafinf a hole in the middle, surrounded by wall, and a ceiling on the top level i want to actually inhabit (but still under at least 1 z from the top of the tube) and then, through floodgates, open up that hollow middle bit to allow the lava to restore itself to the top of the crater, submerging all my rooms i've built.
then, as the moat draws from the top z, my magma workshops on my lowest in-crater floor would never have to worry about power.
or am i missing something glaring?
You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.
I have just tested this and it does in fact work. However, you have to be careful about how you designate your pit/pond. the created blocks of obsidian have to be supported.
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You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.
I think this is correct, but I've never tried to obsidianize the volcano opening before, so add salt and shake well before using. ;)
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You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.
I think this is correct, but I've never tried to obsidianize the volcano opening before, so add salt and shake well before using. ;)
Based on a little !!SCIENCE!! I would guess that pit/ponding an area, by the edge of the volcano +2 z-levels from the top of the magma would eventually create enough of an obsidian footprint that you could dig down into it and make an obsidian plug. It won't be a quick process though.
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The easiest reliable method I've found in my experiments is simply not to punch a hole where there's lots of adjacent magma trying to occupy the same space. If I use an 'outside corner' that has only one tile of magma adjacent, the reduced flow is slow enough that the hauler should escape reliably.
that's why the "spillway" method I described above is superior. For most applications, faster flow == better than. With a good spillway setup you can breach as many as three adjacent tiles from the chute wall before your miner has to retreat.
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that's why the "spillway" method I described above is superior. For most applications, faster flow == better than. With a good spillway setup you can breach as many as three adjacent tiles from the chute wall before your miner has to retreat.
I'd like to make sure I understand what you mean here.
Given the following setup (seen from above, walls = O, floor = . and Stairwell = X):
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
..if we assume an "adequate" large spillway on the level below, the dwarf could smooth/carve all three of the green walls without moving from the stairs WITHOUT the magma washing over him and killing him? It seems like it would exist on his level long enough to cause an exposure and set him on fire...
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that's why the "spillway" method I described above is superior. For most applications, faster flow == better than. With a good spillway setup you can breach as many as three adjacent tiles from the chute wall before your miner has to retreat.
I'd like to make sure I understand what you mean here.
Given the following setup (seen from above, walls = O, floor = . and Stairwell = X):
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
..if we assume an "adequate" large spillway on the level below, the dwarf could channel all three of the green walls without moving from the stairs WITHOUT the magma washing over him and killing him? It seems like it would exist on his level long enough to cause an exposure and set him on fire...
If I were at home, I'd post the fort where I did it. You'll definitely get one open , and there's a decent chance he'll open two or even all three.
A better setup might be something like
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
With a setup like that you might get as many as five or six tiles mined out, yeah, because the miner will just move around the bend to the next safe access point. The lava drops down quickly enough that the dwarf doesn't get significantly injured.
It *is* slightly higher risk, though, yes, especially if you don't use a legendary +5 miner. Four times out of five, though, your miner will come out relatively safe (maybe a slight burn, but nothing lethal or permanently incapacitating), and you can open up way more tiles to flow.
I may prefer this approach because I shamelessly abuse save-scumming and this method is a little higher-risk, higher-reward. When you need to melt out a whole frozen brook, a one-tile flow just isn't enough.
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With a setup like that you might get as many as five or six tiles mined out, yeah, because the miner will just move around the bend to the next safe access point. The lava drops down quickly enough that the dwarf doesn't get significantly injured.
What about something like this?
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
......XOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
I may prefer this approach because I shamelessly abuse save-scumming
Aha! There's the difference. I don't save-scum. Reveal (stonecunning) is one thing, remaking world events by replaying them for the desired outcome is a bridge too far for me.
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With a setup like that you might get as many as five or six tiles mined out, yeah, because the miner will just move around the bend to the next safe access point. The lava drops down quickly enough that the dwarf doesn't get significantly injured.
What about something like this?
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
......XOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
I may prefer this approach because I shamelessly abuse save-scumming
Aha! There's the difference. I don't save-scum. Reveal (stonecunning) is one thing, remaking world events by replaying them for the desired outcome is a bridge too far for me.
You need the intervening walls because once lava stops falling, it gets real dangerous real fast. It's smart to continue the dividing walls in your "spillway" as well.
We all have our lines we draw :P I won't use danger rooms because they seem to unrealistically break the game, and I won't use Runesmith because it's hacking "reality", but I see save-scumming as just playing out alternate realities. That's the whole point of having a saved game! =)
Reveal is obviously dwarven magic, and thus acceptable.
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You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.
I have just tested this and it does in fact work. However, you have to be careful about how you designate your pit/pond. the created blocks of obsidian have to be supported.
well, yea, i knew the pond zone had to be on z+1, i perhaps didnt word my question to reflect this. also knew about the support thing. thanks for testing for me and responding though..... it'll make my goblin tower work much better than the original design. i dont mind the slow rate of work.... heh, you should see my current dwarven fortress.... it takes months to do anything.
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An alternative to the above spillway method is simply to make the 'spillway' your primary outlet - if you can breach the volcano one z-level higher than the level on which you want to use the magma, the lower z-level 'spillway' ends up being your magma basement, as it were...which is generally large enough that your miner will have plenty of time to mine/smooth/carve/whatever the upper tiles before it fills up and the magma backflows. :)
The method I use (which I took from a thread here somewhere which I now cannot find) is usually as follows (looking from above):
Z = 0
MMMMMMMMMMM
OOOOOOOOOOO
OJOJOJOJOJO
O.O.O.O.O.O
ODODODODODO
O.........O
OOOOO.OOOOO
Z = -1
MMMMMMMMMMM
OOOOOOOOOOO
OU.U.U.U.UO
O.........O
O.........O
O.........O
O.........O
...where M is the volcano, O is a wall/unmined rock, U is upward stairwell, J is downward stairwell, D is a door and . is floor/mined rock.
The z-1 diagram can look like whatever you want after the U staircases are in place. Or you could use up/downs.
Once that's all set up, designate the O tiles on the upper level next to the J's for mining (or smoothing/carving if you really want). The magma will flow straight down the staircase while your miner moves onto the next extension, and you can lock the door behind him. Once he's opened all the inlets, he'll leave the area and you can wall off the top section.
Easiest, safest and most convenient way I've found to set up a volcano breach. I generally build grates/fortifications on the lower levels to weed out 'undesirables' from the magma. No need to do it on the top level (or smooth/carve) if you're going to wall it off anyway! :D
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An alternative to the above spillway method is simply to make the 'spillway' your primary outlet (snip) Easiest, safest and most convenient way I've found to set up a volcano breach. I generally build grates/fortifications on the lower levels to weed out 'undesirables' from the magma. No need to do it on the top level (or smooth/carve) if you're going to wall it off anyway! :D
Ooh. I think I like this. I'll give this a spin for !!Science!! and see if I can keep the haulers alive while getting better flow rates. If it doesn't vaporize haulers left-right-and-center from magma exposure, then this may well be a really, really desirable solution, especially given than I typically pump the magma out of the reservoir anyway...
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I like to shut three migrants with no stone detailing skill in a three-wide tunnel behind floodgates and have all three carve fortifications into the magma pipe. I just savecum after I figure out how many frames to delay each one so they'll all finish within 20 frames of each other.
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Somewhat delayed (sorry about the /necro) but I found a note I'd made myself to revisit this thread with my results. I employed jhxmt's method and found it to be both effective and safer than I'd expected. I'll be employing this method in my next fort to provide the magma source for my obsidian farm.
Thanks for the discussion, guys!
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I want to add my technique to this thread as well since it's 100% safe
S= Stone
L= Lava/Magma
_=ground
X= tile to be channeled from above
= open space
SSSSSSSSSS
_______
SSSLLXLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
LLLLLLSLLLLS
SSSSSSLLLLS
Basically you just make downstairs right next to and at the top most level of the vulcano, make up/down stairs till the level you want lava/magma with an upstair finishing off your magma pipe. Then just channel, connecting your pipe to the vulcano, no risk to your dwarfs ever.
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Wouldn't channeling work better instead of mining or carving fortifications?
Side view:
W= wall, M= magma, .= floor,
WWWWWWWWWM
.....................WM
.....................WM
WWWWWWWWWM
Simply dig out the magma trench up to the volcano first, then dig an access path right above it and channel out the volcano wall. This essentially mines out the wall next to you AND the wall below it at the same time, allowing the magma to fall into the trench instead of spreading out to where the miner is standing.
I tried simulating something like this in arena mode and a tiny bit of magma still manages to splash across the gap, but there's plenty of time for the dwarf to hightail it out of there if he leaves straight away. If you want more flow then simply open it up in multiple locations into a bigger trench.