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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 597212 times)

Sergius

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1440 on: February 04, 2013, 02:11:55 pm »

One question for all of you sword-knowing people: is it really true that the roman Gladius used steel?

I thought romans liked to use bronze and brass for their weapons and armor.
to my knowledge, they used iron extensively for weapons and armor. That much is known to me (ancient romans are particularily interesting to me)

But i heard somewhere that the gladius was steel encased with iron, so only the cutting edge would be steel.

Roman weapons were iron, but something about the process of beating the shit out of it made the edge have just the right amount of carbon and stuff. So, a kind of accidental steel. They had no idea how to smelt actual steel.
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DoomOnion

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1441 on: February 04, 2013, 02:23:12 pm »

One question for all of you sword-knowing people: is it really true that the roman Gladius used steel?

I thought romans liked to use bronze and brass for their weapons and armor.
to my knowledge, they used iron extensively for weapons and armor. That much is known to me (ancient romans are particularily interesting to me)

But i heard somewhere that the gladius was steel encased with iron, so only the cutting edge would be steel.

Roman weapons were iron, but something about the process of beating the shit out of it made the edge have just the right amount of carbon and stuff. So, a kind of accidental steel. They had no idea how to smelt actual steel.
Huh, I didn't know that. So was bronze and brass used only for ceremonial stuff during the classical period?
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Glloyd

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1442 on: February 04, 2013, 02:28:31 pm »

Downloaded it and wow. This is by far the most attractive looking ASCII game I've seen. Some damn fine visuals there friend. I really want to see this game come to fruition.

Techhead

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1443 on: February 04, 2013, 02:34:41 pm »

Huh, I didn't know that. So was bronze and brass used only for ceremonial stuff during the classical period?
Use of bronze declined in the classical period because of shortages of copper and tin. Iron, on the other hand was commonplace. Iron weapons did not have quality equal to bronze, so Roman officers did have swords of bronze (or rarer, steel).
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Sergius

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1444 on: February 04, 2013, 02:40:42 pm »

I think bronze age was more common in Greece, before Rome. Rome was Iron Age IIRC.

EDIT: Yeah like Techhead said, bronze is somewhat better than iron on average, but it was the fancy stuff.

Usually, bronze required lots of trade because tin and copper weren't often close to each other.
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Graknorke

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1445 on: February 04, 2013, 02:44:33 pm »

Fun fact: The Roman empire went out of their way to invade the British Isles because of the tin deposits there; to make bronze with.

EDIT: And I meant to segue that into a question about resource acquisition. Then I forgot.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 03:16:41 pm by Graknorke »
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DoomOnion

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1446 on: February 04, 2013, 02:59:39 pm »

Oh my, I feel... educated. Stop educating me, grumble grumble. :P
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Sergius

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1447 on: February 04, 2013, 03:31:04 pm »

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Mephansteras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1448 on: February 04, 2013, 03:37:32 pm »

The resource options are a good point, along with the conversation on who fought with what.

I did a ton of research on this when I was making my Ironworks mod for Dwarf Fortress. So I know a decent amount about all of this.

Generally speaking, cultures used whatever was most effective for fighting the other cultures they came up against that was still cost effective.

The Japanese, for instance, had fairly light katanas that were designed for fighting lightly armored opponents. When they had to fight the Chinese/Mongols, they ran up against more heavily armored opponents and had to create a heavier  sword with an iron core to help them penetrate the armor. In general, though, they were an iron-poor island that mostly just fought itself, and much of their fighting style was centered around that. Katanas have a legendary reputation because they were, in fact, made to very exacting standards. They had to be, because a poorly made katana would break easily and a broken sword is pretty useless. So they're really sharp and well made, for the most part, but not actually 'better' than a well made western sword. And certainly not 'better' at fighting an armored opponent, since that wasn't really what they were designed to do. Katanas are slashing weapons, and trying to cut a guy in plate mail is pretty useless, especially if he's got mail underneath.

Swords in mainland asia and the west were made much easier since decent quality iron was more abundant. Most 'iron' weapons are actually a very low grade steel, since pure iron is pretty worthless for weapons and some carbon almost always ends up in weapons during the forging process anyway.

India did, in fact, have the first steel alloys, due to some fortuitous iron deposits that contained impurities of Vanadium and Magnesium. This is why Damascus or Wootz steel was so valued, it was something that no other region at the time could replicate. During the later roman empire and the middle ages actual pattern-welded steel forging techniques became pretty common, but even those weren't as good as the steel alloys the Indians had. Before that, Bronze was going to be better than the vast majority of iron weapons but was both expensive to make and difficult to work with compared to iron.

Eventually those deposits dried up and India was back around the same tech level as everyone else.

From a game perspective, noting how easy it is to get various resources should help determine what tech level people are at. If you have ample deposits of Copper and Tin, bronze should be the favored metal for a very long time. Otherwise, Iron is more abundant in the world and will generally supersede bronze because it's cheaper and 1000 guys with iron weapons will probably beat 100 guys in bronze no matter what quality you're using.

As far as tech goes, people use what they need to and rarely beyond that. If all of your neighbors are using stone spears, you probably don't need much better than simple metal weapons and leather armor to beat them. If they've got chain mail and decent quality metal weapons, you're going to need some decent equipment of your own to beat them. If building an army strong enough to beat someone takes more men or equipment than you can afford, you probably won't do a whole lot of invading.
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kerlc

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1449 on: February 04, 2013, 04:06:19 pm »

 :D
I feel cleverererer!
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Man of Paper

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1450 on: February 04, 2013, 06:02:06 pm »

Ziggurats!
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1451 on: February 04, 2013, 06:28:52 pm »

Just a general comment - this weapon discussion is fascinating. I'd like all weapons to be valid choices - not have some (though we won't name names...) that nobody uses, but I realize some will probably have rather more specialized use than others. I've made a mental note of the pages of the thread we're currently on so I can return in the future :)

If you can compile it on Linux, oh wise and generous provider, then a mac-compilable version would shortly follow. Little differences crop up here and there, nothing serious, in my experience.

Ah, interesting. That's good to know! So a Linux version is more Mac-friendly than a Windows, by default? That might be blindingly obvious to many, but I've never used a non-Windows OS...

I am willing to kill and do all evil for this game.

This pleases me.

If I knew both languages, I don't think I could resist the temptation to tell A that B wants to kill him and tell B that A wants to kill him then watch the fight, while eating popcorn.

By the way, nice interview. Not many facts I didn't know earlier but it seems enough to leave an experienced player in awe after reading it :P

Ha - I love that idea. I 100% want you to be able to do that. Thanks! Glad you enjoyed.

Found a link to this yesterday. It looks like a fascinating project, and I greatly look forward to the point where there's some actual gameplay. I look forward even more to the point where it's finished, looking at all the things that are planned.

Downloaded it and wow. This is by far the most attractive looking ASCII game I've seen. Some damn fine visuals there friend. I really want to see this game come to fruition.

Thank you both - see the bottom of this reply for the first hints of real gameplay...

The resource options are a good point, along with the conversation on who fought with what.

I did a ton of research on this when I was making my Ironworks mod for Dwarf Fortress. So I know a decent amount about all of this.

Generally speaking, cultures used whatever was most effective for fighting the other cultures they came up against that was still cost effective.

The Japanese, for instance, had fairly light katanas that were designed for fighting lightly armored opponents. When they had to fight the Chinese/Mongols, they ran up against more heavily armored opponents and had to create a heavier  sword with an iron core to help them penetrate the armor. In general, though, they were an iron-poor island that mostly just fought itself, and much of their fighting style was centered around that. Katanas have a legendary reputation because they were, in fact, made to very exacting standards. They had to be, because a poorly made katana would break easily and a broken sword is pretty useless. So they're really sharp and well made, for the most part, but not actually 'better' than a well made western sword. And certainly not 'better' at fighting an armored opponent, since that wasn't really what they were designed to do. Katanas are slashing weapons, and trying to cut a guy in plate mail is pretty useless, especially if he's got mail underneath.

Swords in mainland asia and the west were made much easier since decent quality iron was more abundant. Most 'iron' weapons are actually a very low grade steel, since pure iron is pretty worthless for weapons and some carbon almost always ends up in weapons during the forging process anyway.

India did, in fact, have the first steel alloys, due to some fortuitous iron deposits that contained impurities of Vanadium and Magnesium. This is why Damascus or Wootz steel was so valued, it was something that no other region at the time could replicate. During the later roman empire and the middle ages actual pattern-welded steel forging techniques became pretty common, but even those weren't as good as the steel alloys the Indians had. Before that, Bronze was going to be better than the vast majority of iron weapons but was both expensive to make and difficult to work with compared to iron.

Eventually those deposits dried up and India was back around the same tech level as everyone else.

From a game perspective, noting how easy it is to get various resources should help determine what tech level people are at. If you have ample deposits of Copper and Tin, bronze should be the favored metal for a very long time. Otherwise, Iron is more abundant in the world and will generally supersede bronze because it's cheaper and 1000 guys with iron weapons will probably beat 100 guys in bronze no matter what quality you're using.

As far as tech goes, people use what they need to and rarely beyond that. If all of your neighbors are using stone spears, you probably don't need much better than simple metal weapons and leather armor to beat them. If they've got chain mail and decent quality metal weapons, you're going to need some decent equipment of your own to beat them. If building an army strong enough to beat someone takes more men or equipment than you can afford, you probably won't do a whole lot of invading.

All fascinating. Resources do currently factor in to a civ's ability to advance, though if a civ lacks iron within its own borders but has heard of iron, then in the history gen I've made it much more inclined to trade around in order to acquire said iron. Damascus steel I've always thought is a fascinating thing (esp. as the exact method is lost) - I'd love to add in a few, very rare, examples of that, where the weaponry of a particular civ, or even just a particular smith, or a city, is known as being particularly special, and gains a bit of a bonus because of it...

Ziggurats!

YES! Blog entry! Gameplay!

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2013/02/04/ziggurats/

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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1452 on: February 04, 2013, 07:20:50 pm »

India did, in fact, have the first steel alloys...

That steel appears to have been produced after 300 A.D.  The Haya people of Tanzania seem to have been producing steel from around 2000 years ago.  While this is told through oral tradition, some of their elders reconstructed the forge utilized and produced the steel.  Similar forges within the area were carbon dated to around the time that the Haya have said in their traditions.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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varsovie

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1453 on: February 04, 2013, 07:25:28 pm »

Just a general comment - this weapon discussion is fascinating. I'd like all weapons to be valid choices - not have some (though we won't name names...) that nobody uses, but I realize some will probably have rather more specialized use than others. I've made a mental note of the pages of the thread we're currently on so I can return in the future :)

Even if a weapon (or alloy) is worse in all regard comparing to another, it might become a good option regarding to price and availability. It's normal that no every soldier have the latest full plate diamond armor (more so in levies armies). If you remove price and availability (aka, resources, manpower and time needed to make) sure everybody will use nukes.

And why not weapons that are definitively better/good but prohibited by the civ (like knight that tried to ban the crossbow so they can continue pillaging/raping peasants.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - strategy/roguelike/4x (v 0.2.0 released 26/11/2012!)
« Reply #1454 on: February 04, 2013, 07:32:12 pm »

India did, in fact, have the first steel alloys...

That steel appears to have been produced after 300 A.D.  The Haya people of Tanzania seem to have been producing steel from around 2000 years ago.  While this is told through oral tradition, some of their elders reconstructed the forge utilized and produced the steel.  Similar forges within the area were carbon dated to around the time that the Haya have said in their traditions.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh, yeah, those guys. As far as I know they were the first/one of the first to have steel. But to my knowledge they didn't have steel alloys the way the Indians did. They might have, but I don't think we know one way or another since the only way to be sure would be to test samples of the steel. Damascus Steel was equivalent to some modern steel alloys in composition.
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